# Brexit........ anyone want to talk about it?



## JANICE199

*It's been said start a new thread about the subject if people want to discuss it. So here's the place*


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## kimthecat

Good luck with that !


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## Happy Paws2

Brexit or The Great British C*ck Up 
Not me I heard yesterday on the radio.


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## FeelTheBern

Absolutely not. Can we talk about cars and plants instead?


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## stockwellcat.

Not interested. I promised myself to avoid such threads.


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## Goblin

Well we could start with:


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## JANICE199

Goblin said:


> Well we could start with:


*Interesting when they talk about the ferry crossings and lorries. As far as i know, these days only Dover is being used? Why not reopen the other ports and use them? More jobs would go down very well in the nearby areas.*


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## Zaros

Yeah well. I've heard it said that Britain could very well end up as third world country after Brexit. 

Personally I think that's just the usual strategy of scaremongering because I honestly don't think things will improve that much.:Angelic


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## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *Interesting when they talk about the ferry crossings and lorries. As far as I know, these days only Dover is being used? Why not reopen the other ports and use them? More jobs would go down very well in the nearby areas.*


As with everything else that's easier said than done. The government have just over six months to plan ahead. Could the disused ports be up and running in that time? Will the NI border be up and running? No.

Even if this was achieved it wouldn't eliminate the problem with so many more vehicles on the road. As for jobs are they suggesting volunteers rather than paid staff?

The government should have been sorting this out two years ago if they believe they are delivering the Brexit the British people voted for.

It's undeliverable full stop. Remainers will get the blame for not getting behind it.

Tell you what. Might give up my job and concentrate on doing the Lottery as by believing in this I'm sure to win it!


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## Lurcherlad

No


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## Elles

As linked already in another thread, port authorities say apart from Dover, the other ports already have the logistics in place as they’ve been dealing with produce, imports and exports, worldwide for years. 95% of Eu produce goes through Dover, so it’s mainly Dover that needs sorting for Eu products after brexit.

Ps: if it isn’t sorted, that’s the current British government and probably the Eu at fault, not people who voted to leave.


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## Elles

Anyway, I’m out. No one listens to anything I say anyway. Have fun scaring each other about how bad it’s all going to be.  I’ll wait and see.


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## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Ps: if it isn't sorted, that's the current British government and probably the Eu at fault, not people who voted to leave.


I'm inclined to agree no brexiter voted for the chaos that could result, except the very rich ones who won't be affected by it.

Certainly, no one voted to be poorer did they?

The blame will 100% be on this government. The EU didn't trigger Article 50.


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## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> *Interesting when they talk about the ferry crossings and lorries. As far as i know, these days only Dover is being used? Why not reopen the other ports and use them? More jobs would go down very well in the nearby areas.*


I agree, Ramsgate for example could do with the jobs however.. who is going to pay for it all? As with a lot of thing brexit.. more costs for no real gain.



Elles said:


> As linked already in another thread, port authorities say apart from Dover, the other ports already have the logistics in place as they've been dealing with produce, imports and exports, worldwide for years. 95% of Eu produce goes through Dover, so it's mainly Dover that needs sorting for Eu products after brexit.


Can you point that link out again.. Politicians have been highlighting other ports I know and those I have seen. I know Associated British Ports operates Southampton and states that less than two percent of goods passing through are subject to physical checks by customs officials. However that is surely made possible by the 50+ trade arrangements through the EU allowing goods to be pre-cleared, even goods from outside the EU. We would lose that capability as we would no longer have those treaties until they can be renegotiated.


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## Satori

KittenKong said:


> I'm inclined to agree no brexiter voted for the chaos that could result, except the very rich ones who won't be affected by it.
> 
> Certainly, no one voted to be poorer did they?
> 
> The blame will 100% be on this government. The EU didn't trigger Article 50.


Totally agree. I would hope that no conventionally sane person voted for the chaos that might well now result. It was foreseeable as soon as Theresa May was appointed leader of the Conservative party however.

I always assumed that her appointment would mean that wouldn't really leave after all. That may yet be the outcome. On the other hand, it may be that we serendipitously get the hard (leave without a deal) brexit that I have always preferred. However the big difference is that I would have liked no-deal to have been the default option so that we could have prepared properly for it... as opposed to the circus that we have witnessed over the last couple of years.

The current government has a great deal to answer for, not that they ever will of course.


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## Goblin

Satori said:


> I always assumed that her appointment would mean that wouldn't really leave after all. That may yet be the outcome. On the other hand, it may be that we serendipitously get the hard (leave without a deal) brexit that I have always preferred.


The economist recently posted a poll from 7th June 2016 which showed only a fifth of people when voting expected it would mean leave the single market/customs union. That's not who would agree to leave knowing it but shows how expectations were falsely set and how things have changed in 2 years. No shock considering even now, those pushing leaving the customs union and single market refer back to Cameron and what was labelled project feat, rather than the leave campaign's message. So how many of those who didn't expect it would mean leaving the single market would have voted differently?

Changing the subject slightly away from brexit (shock I know). What the whole process of brexit has shown is the complete lack of respect for the population by the UK politicians. It's pushed the idea that lies and misinformation is the way forward by politicians as they are not held accountable in any way.


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## diefenbaker

What is it ? Have I missed something ?


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## Sandysmum

I'll pass on this one thanks


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## JANICE199

Goblin said:


> I agree, Ramsgate for example could do with the jobs however.. who is going to pay for it all? As with a lot of thing brexit.. more costs for no real gain.
> 
> Can you point that link out again.. Politicians have been highlighting other ports I know and those I have seen. I know Associated British Ports operates Southampton and states that less than two percent of goods passing through are subject to physical checks by customs officials. However that is surely made possible by the 50+ trade arrangements through the EU allowing goods to be pre-cleared, even goods from outside the EU. We would lose that capability as we would no longer have those treaties until they can be renegotiated.


*We don't just have Ramsgate, how about Folkstone or Sheerness? As for the money. the money is there if we stop spending so much on wars that are nothing to do with us. ( imo ). *


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## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> *We don't just have Ramsgate, how about Folkstone or Sheerness? As for the money. the money is there if we stop spending so much on wars that are nothing to do with us. ( imo ). *


I mentioned Ramsgate mainly as I know Thanet in general has suffered over the years with higher than average unemployment. Sheerness already has more capacity so from that aspect would be potentially better. Don't know about Folkestone. I agree about priority on government spending but that's not something brexit will change. If anything the "little nation" trying to prove itself and nationalistic, not patriotic, pride will probably mean more war spending to assert ourselves globally. The core fact remains though, it's another cost simply trying to match what we already have.

Now if you are going to push for opening new ports etc you should also push the idea of free ports. Again pros and cons to those and I am aware of nothing the government has previously mentioned which has indicated they are going to be on the cards, certainly in the short term. One of the primary disadvantages isn't something you'll notice mentioned anywhere.. the environmental impact. An important question: would free ports really make up for the losses due to the single market and customs union? Then again.. what is stopping the UK from having free ports whilst in the EU?


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## cheekyscrip

But, but it was said I am the only one interested in political threads?

What all those imposters are doing here?

All I know Malta is doing truly well off Brexit. English spoken, tax low, in EU....

I saw the drop in corporate tax in Gibraltar.

Massive.

We are just a miniature Britain.



Individual tax was risen sharply then and add to it the value of pound so low...


My job after March may not exist. Frontier might be impassable. More loses.

No more funds for restoration and environmental projects from EU.

I know hardly anyone cares about the Rock.

But do you think you would fare better?


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## MollySmith

No I bloody don't. I'm still cross, still isn't what I agreed to and have no intention of going over the same old ground here. If I talk about it, it will be with my MP.


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## Goblin

MollySmith said:


> No I bloody don't. I'm still cross, still isn't what I agreed to


Trouble is that nothing about leave was defined. One of the reasons why a public vote on the final deal is needed.


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## FeelTheBern

Why are we, as a forum, obsessed with anything and everything relating to Brexit? Brexit threads always turn sour and end up closed, so can't we find something else to discuss?


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## KittenKong

FeelTheBern said:


> Why are we, as a forum, obsessed with anything and everything relating to Brexit? Brexit threads always turn sour and end up closed, so can't we find something else to discuss?


Brexit will greatly affect how many of us live our lives in the future regardless of how we, as individuals, voted.

I have family members living abroad, people could lose their jobs if plants move out of the UK on leaving the SM and CU.

Then there's Northern Ireland too. They may have to get used to a hard border with the Republic again, not forgetting Gibraltar.

They are just examples.

No point in crossing your fingers hoping everything will work out fine.


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## cheekyscrip

FeelTheBern said:


> Why are we, as a forum, obsessed with anything and everything relating to Brexit? Brexit threads always turn sour and end up closed, so can't we find something else to discuss?


Because our life depends on it?
For me it is my job, my children's health and education, freedom to travel and work... our future, our present is affected already.
More important to me than sofa covers etc...
Lucky those whose life will not be affected.

But they should understand that others' will.


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## MollySmith

Goblin said:


> Trouble is that nothing about leave was defined. One of the reasons why a public vote on the final deal is needed.


Trying really hard not to get involved too much but yes agree with you. But I'm focussing my thoughts about that with those who might be able to make change than here on PF. I don't have masses of time and being wise about how I use it, having spent too much on the other thread.

Apologies if I don't reply. Thems the reasons!


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## FeelTheBern

KittenKong said:


> Brexit will greatly affect how many of us live our lives in the future regardless of how we, as individuals, voted.
> 
> I have family members living abroad, people could lose their jobs if plants move out of the UK on leaving the SM and CU.
> 
> Then there's Northern Ireland too. They may have to get used to a hard border with the Republic again, not forgetting Gibraltar.
> 
> They are just examples.
> 
> No point in crossing your fingers hoping everything will work out fine.





cheekyscrip said:


> Because our life depends on it?
> For me it is my job, my children's health and education, freedom to travel and work... our future, our present is affected already.
> More important to me than sofa covers etc...
> Lucky those whose life will not be affected.
> 
> But they should understand that others' will.


Yes, I know it's an important topic, but why must we discuss it so excessively?


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## Arnie83

FeelTheBern said:


> Yes, I know it's an important topic, but why must we discuss it so excessively?


To be fair, it isn't compulsory. I like to think that in a very small way we can increase awareness of its implications by swapping information.


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## cheekyscrip

FeelTheBern said:


> Yes, I know it's an important topic, but why must we discuss it so excessively?


 No one must.
Enough not to post. 
No one posts - thread dies a natural death.
Posting is a choice - unless you are not
allowed.

But no one can force anyone to read or post anything on any forum.

Brexit already damages our economy, already has impact on health care and education.

Why those who see it should keep quiet and resign to it?

It is not GE where you have to accept the result and wait till next one.

I can't force anyone to accept the facts.

Doesn't mean not to try to show them.


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## MilleD

Round and round and round it goes, where it'll stop, nobody knows...………….


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## labradrk

I was bored to tears by anything to do with Brexit the day after it happened. Mind numbingly dull. I've always said it's a shame we didn't just stay in, so that everyone could then shut the hell up about it.


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## Guest

Can I ask a question?

I’m a New Zealander and only know the basics about Brexit.

I lived in the UK for 2 years and would dearly love to return to settle there, particularly as I’d like to peruse a career in a certain field that just isn’t available here. Plus I just love the country!

At the moment it’s nearly impossible for me to move there to work. 

What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I’ve read a bit online but there’s some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won’t but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.

I’m not trying to stir the pot - I’m genuinely interested!


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## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> No one can force anyone to read anything on any forum.


Valid point, Scrippy.

But curiosity does have a tendency to kill cats.

Lead us not into temptation which, incidentally, is an inclination many simply can't resist.

We live in an isolated area so that we wouldn't have to be faced with the prospect of nosy neighbours, yet we still experience the incurable inquisitiveness of those who can't resist having a sneak peek at what we're up to.

As for the topic of the thread, I'll repeat something that I've always maintained and that is, all politicians, without exception, are liars and cheats and , therefore, cannot be trusted. Many politicians are war criminals and murderers, yet some people still possess the need to show favour for the one they believe has told the least amount of lies or has cheated fewer people than than most of his/her rivals.

And let's face it, you certainly can't trust May. Every time she makes a promise, she Brexit.

PS, Scrippy. There's only room for one on the ducking stool. Let's not have more than one witch hunt at a time.

There's a good girl.


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## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Valid point, Scrippy.
> 
> But curiosity does have a tendency to kill cats.
> 
> Lead us not into temptation which, incidentally, is an inclination many simply can't resist.
> 
> We live in an isolated area so that we wouldn't have to be faced with the prospect of nosy neighbours, yet we still experience the incurable inquisitiveness of those who can't resist having a sneak peek at what we're up to.
> 
> As for the topic of the thread, I'll repeat something that I've always maintained and that is, all politicians, without exception, are liars and cheats and , therefore, cannot be trusted. Many politicians are war criminals and murderers, yet some people still possess the need to show favour for the one they believe has told the least amount of lies or has cheated fewer people than than most of his/her rivals.
> 
> And let's face it, you certainly can't trust May. Every time she makes a promise, she Brexit.
> 
> PS, Scrippy. There's only room for one on the ducking stool. Let's not have more than one witch hunt at a time.
> 
> There's a good girl.


Then sit and wait, your turn will come.
Boy, you cannot have it all to yourself. :Cigar

May is on that stool now but if anyone seriously thought that BoJo as PM will provide orderly exit and EU will bow to him low!
Well ... he is poised to take over soon...

With no deal option.


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## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Then sit and wait, your turn will come.
> Boy, you cannot have it all to yourself.
> May is on that stool now


May and I could be dunked together like digestive biscuits. She's full of hot air and I could always use her as improvised breathing apparatus. A snog with May might be likened to the kiss of death for some but for me, it would prove to be the exact opposite.


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## KittenKong

McKenzie said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> I'm a New Zealander and only know the basics about Brexit.
> 
> I lived in the UK for 2 years and would dearly love to return to settle there, particularly as I'd like to peruse a career in a certain field that just isn't available here. Plus I just love the country!
> 
> At the moment it's nearly impossible for me to move there to work.
> 
> What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I've read a bit online but there's some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won't but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm genuinely interested!


The UK has a Prime Minister who is obsessed with immigration targets, so much she's prepared to sacrifice a satisfactory trade deal with the EU that would allow continued access to the single market and customs union. The EU rightly insists freedom of movement would have to continue, not forgetting the UK citizens rights to freely travel across other member states that will have to end as well which breaks my heart quite frankly.

Theresa May rejected that for that reason alone. Norway and Switzerland seem to do OK but as usual TM knows best. The UK will have to leave the SM and CU for that reason alone.

And don't forget the disgusting Windrush scandal through her hostile environment policy, where people have wrongly been deported.

And I won't stop there. The opposition leader is assisting Theresa May in delivering her Brexit.

I've seen the interview and do not regret my decision, as a lifelong Labour Party supporter, to have given my vote to an EU backing political party in the recent local elections.


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## Guest

KittenKong said:


> The UK has a Prime Minister who is obsessed with immigration targets, so much she's prepared to sacrifice a satisfactory trade deal with the EU that would allow continued access to the single market and customs union. The EU rightly insists freedom of movement would have to continue, not forgetting the UK citizens rights to freely travel across other member states that will have to end as well which breaks my heart quite frankly.
> 
> Theresa May rejected that for that reason alone. Norway and Switzerland seem to do OK but as usual TM knows best. The UK will have to leave the SM and CU for that reason alone.
> 
> And don't forget the disgusting Windrush scandal through her hostile environment policy, where people have wrongly been deported.
> 
> And I won't stop there. The opposition leader is assisting Theresa May in delivering her Brexit.
> 
> I've seen the interview and do not regret my decision, as a lifelong Labour Party supporter, to have given my vote to an EU backing political party in the recent local elections.
> 
> View attachment 365567


Ummm, ok thanks. I'm not quite sure i understand but thanks anyway!


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## JANICE199

McKenzie said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> I'm a New Zealander and only know the basics about Brexit.
> 
> I lived in the UK for 2 years and would dearly love to return to settle there, particularly as I'd like to peruse a career in a certain field that just isn't available here. Plus I just love the country!
> 
> At the moment it's nearly impossible for me to move there to work.
> 
> What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I've read a bit online but there's some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won't but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm genuinely interested!


*The truth is, nobody can give you an honest answer because none of us know. I would wait until the brexit thing is done and then think again.*
*I have a brother in NZ and he says he would never come back to this country. *


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## KittenKong

Well, this is Pet Forums!




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=284886678767610


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## Goblin

McKenzie said:


> What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I've read a bit online but there's some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won't but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.


Put simply people were lied to about immigration. One of the main lines of the leave campaign was that immigrants take up all the housing and essential services and stopping what is known as freedom of movement would solve it. Nobody wanted to correct people's understanding of freedom of movement and that includes the remain campaign. Little things like it requires a person to be employed or able to support themselves within 3 months were ignored. Instead people insisted that freedom of movement meant that many europeans came to the UK and simply take benefits. EU immigrants took without given despite the reality that they are a net contributer to the UK. Immigrants also take all the low paid jobs and keep wages down was another leave line. Because the UK public were lied to and immigrants were scapegoated for a raft of the UK's problems there is a general feeling against immigration and immigrants personally. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny but I have seen the line "oh, you are okay it's all the other immigrants" being used more than once. The lack of certainty about brexit, improving conditions and opportunities in places like Poland has meant that some EU immigrants have moved back home and there is less immigration from the EU in general. This is actually causing some problems. The NHS is one example, another is that the UK relies on seasonal fruit pickers and there have been occasions where lack of workers from the EU has meant that crops have been left to rot in fields. Immigration from outside the EU however has grown.That's a general background.

To get to your situation though (and in my opinion). Brexit will change the policy of the UK government very little when it comes to immigration from outside the EU. I know there has been talk that Australia will insist on more visa's as part of any trade deal. As that's not even able to be negotiated yet, nobody knows. There has been talk about implementing a points based system in fact people like Farage and Boris Johnson were promising that would solve everything to do with immigration. They fail to mention that it has already been trialed in the UK. In addition it doesn't work in places like Australia either in terms of stopping low payed immigrants taking jobs as people simply find ways around it. I think the government is thinking "befuddle 'em with brexit and they will not notice nothing has changed for immigration in general". I do not know any of the details of the current immigration system from commonwealth countries.


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## Arnie83

McKenzie said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> I'm a New Zealander and only know the basics about Brexit.
> 
> I lived in the UK for 2 years and would dearly love to return to settle there, particularly as I'd like to peruse a career in a certain field that just isn't available here. Plus I just love the country!
> 
> At the moment it's nearly impossible for me to move there to work.
> 
> What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I've read a bit online but there's some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won't but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm genuinely interested!


@JANICE199 is right in that, at the moment, nobody knows.

The government have pushed back the date of a white paper outlining the policy and it is now expected in 'the autumn', which officially finishes on 20th December, so don't hold your breath!

The best guess is that the hold-up surrounds whether the UK will give preferential treatment to EU migrants, probably in exchange for better access to the single market. So we'd get almost the equivalent of 'free movement' but under another name.

Without knowing your specialist area or the government policy, it's difficult even to guess if that will affect your chances. So it really is a matter of wait and see at the moment.

I don't suppose that helps, but if it's any consolation you now know as much as we do!


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## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *Interesting when they talk about the ferry crossings and lorries. As far as i know, these days only Dover is being used? Why not reopen the other ports and use them? More jobs would go down very well in the nearby areas.*


As far as I know no ports have been closed, it's just Dover is the shortest crossing.


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## JANICE199

Happy Paws said:


> As far as I know no ports have been closed, it's just Dover is the shortest crossing.


*Hardly anything goes from Ramsgate and i don't think Folkstone is used at all now.*


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## KittenKong

Brexit is understandably seen as a far right wing power grab.

Info on the Left wing "Lexit" has very rarely made the news, so to strike a balance here's an interesting blog on the subject.

https://all-to-human.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-brit-left-and-lexit-left-and-its.html?spref=fb&m=1

















I dispair quite frankly.


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## 3dogs2cats

Is it tomorrow they are publishing a guideline for businesses on what to expect in a no deal situation?


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## KittenKong

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1031811008799682560
Who said it was just about, "Taking control of our borders"?


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## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Not interested. I promised myself to avoid such threads.





McKenzie said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> I'm a New Zealander and only know the basics about Brexit.
> 
> I lived in the UK for 2 years and would dearly love to return to settle there, particularly as I'd like to peruse a career in a certain field that just isn't available here. Plus I just love the country!
> 
> At the moment it's nearly impossible for me to move there to work.
> 
> What are your opinions around immigration with Brexit, particularly from commonwealth countries? I've read a bit online but there's some varying opinions - some say immigration from the EU will continue, some say it won't but that deals might be made with nz, Australia and Canada.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot - I'm genuinely interested!


I dont know about the red tape for Commonwealth countries. It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to pursue your dream especially as so many Brits emigrate to NZ and OZ.

I think as a country we will always need workers from other countries regardless of where they are from .


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## KittenKong

Put this on a bus.
"Let's fund our MPs instead"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...k.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

From the Daily Mirror.


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## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Put this on a bus.
> "Let's fund our MPs instead"
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...k.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
> 
> From the Daily Mirror.
> View attachment 365616


No idea about the actual figures, but it's logical. If we're taking back all decision making powers from the EU, there will be more work required of our decision makers.

Although not necessarily involving MPs, the work currently done by the 35 EU agencies will at least in part need to be done here - we can't just stop doing everything - plus liaison with those agencies, which further increases public sector costs. I guess we will save some money from our representation on EU bodies, but overall the costs will surely rise.


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## KittenKong

Perhaps it's no wonder so many MPs on both sides of the house are against a people's vote. They're clearly going to benefit financially from the forthcoming fiasco while many of their constituents suffer.

I feel like swearing but will refrain myself from doing so....


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## noushka05

This is before we leave. Tens of thousands (millions more~?? ) job losses to come. The cost of brexit already astronomical. Does anyone really believe our NHS will survive? We're heading for austerity on steroids.

*Brexit Job Losses ‏ @MrHickmott 
All these organisations have cut UK jobs or moved ops to the EU die to Brexit.
At the end of the thread I will provide a link details/evidence. *

The Big Bloomer Co
Missguided
Citibank Survey of 200+ travel companies
Jupiter Asset Management
Navfor (EU piracy task force)
MPac.
Gaucho (remainder of group) Crantock Bakery Alan Nutall Partnership The Original Factory Shop Barclays Heartland Interiors Homebase Ashurst Young's Seafood Prescott & Conran Henri Lloyd Wrightbus All Leisure Rolls Royce Poundworld Morgan Stanley Lloyd's of London Carluccio's.
Carphone Warehouse GSK McBride Bradford College Saints Osmund and Andrew's RC Primary School Discovery Channel Homebase Thomson Reuters Fruit of the Loom Bet365 The Pencil Case Co Cau (Gaucho) Yaskawa Wickes Aim Hire Spendlers Delisserie WuXi construction jobs WuXi PCI Pharma.

Toyella Calvatron Brands Bank of America Aptiv Bench Staffordshire children's services Glen Dimplex Poundworld Warren Evans Cloggs Lawrence Automotive Interiors Lana Bambini Jaguar Land Rover 2 Sisters EU Commission and Council Five Star Fish Tulip Foods EU Parliament.

Carpetright Linwoods Northwood Hygiene Products Johnson Tiles Ultimo lingerie Barclays Pinneys Princes (offsets Pinneys) Coca Cola Carillion Carillion EU Youth Orchestra Vauxhall dealerships Aesica Unilever Deutsche Bank JP Morgan UBS Severfield Standard Chartered New Look.
Goldman Sachs Peter's Pies Prezzo East (fashion retail) Maplin Ryanair / Glasgow Airport Credit Suisse Carillion Sensata Landis+Gyr Byron Burger Jamie's Italian Sockmonkey Studio Carillion Wrightbus Carillion Jamie's Italian Salford Council Carillion Morrisons Lloyds Bank.
Carillion Brush B&Q Hampshire Police Salford Council Coca Cola Jaguar Land Rover Tesco Galileo Security Surveillance Centre General Electric Vauxhall Colman's Mustard Goldman Sachs Wolseley GSK Palmer & Harvey Vivergo Fuels Multiyork Feather & Black Palmer & Harvey Interserve.
Swindon Council Newcastle Council Northampton County Council Transport for London Arcadia Group Lloyds Pharmacies New Look Once The App Norfolk Police Misco Sainsbury's Vauxhall Lush BAE Shipyards Cummins Generator Technologies Britvic John Sisk & Sons Gurit Monarch Airlines.
Credit Agricole Mitie Redring Xpelair Salford Council Asda Grain D'Or Witter Towbars DWP Southern Salads Wilko Sainsbury's Delphi Diesel Systems Ace Winches Greencore Group European Banking Authority Coventry Council Mondi Excelsior SNC-Lavalin Atkins Bristow Helicopters Tesco.
West London College Birmingham City Council Brintons Credit Suisse Morgan Tucker Telford College Aberystwyth University Grundfos University of Manchester Price & Company Centrica Bath College Viking Kids Travelex Western Union Ruddocks of Lincoln British Steel Special Profiles.
Nestle (Blue Riband) Foster & Partners Diageo Pulse Flexible Packaging BPI Protec Store Twenty One Jaeger GE Power Conversion Great Plains 2 Sisters Matalan Tesco European Medicines Agency Scottish Police Brantano Marshall Aviation Lloyd's of London Jones Bootmaker
M&F Distribution Ordinance Survey Plumstead Manor School Lloyds Bank Coty (Rimmel London) Restaurant Group Johnson Tiles Budgens Crieff Hydro Heriot Watt University Sainsbury's Welcome Foods WNG Group Riverside Bakery (Addo Foods) Walker's Crisps Ford John Lewis Tulip Foods.
Archant Archant Liverpool Council Tesco Honeywell Post Office Formal Affair Waitrose Bernard Matthews RBS NHS Newcastle Council Wakefield Council Walsall Council CSC Greggs Jobcentre Greggs Clydesdale Bank HSBC Prosecutions Service Quickfit Sefton Council Muller Elanco...

Post Office Tesco Jamie's Italian BBC Hewden Rivington Biscuits DHL Doosan Babcock Airbus Pfizer Pfizer ITV

For full details go to http://facebook.com/BrexitWrecksIt. Each is supported by a press article and there is a spreadsheet giving dates, no of jobs, reasons.

Fill your boots.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> This is before we leave. Tens of thousands (millions more~?? ) job losses to come. The cost of brexit already astronomical. Does anyone really believe our NHS will survive? We're heading for austerity on steroids.
> 
> *Brexit Job Losses ‏ @MrHickmott
> All these organisations have cut UK jobs or moved ops to the EU die to Brexit.
> At the end of the thread I will provide a link details/evidence. *
> 
> The Big Bloomer Co
> Missguided
> Citibank Survey of 200+ travel companies
> Jupiter Asset Management
> Navfor (EU piracy task force)
> MPac.
> Gaucho (remainder of group) Crantock Bakery Alan Nutall Partnership The Original Factory Shop Barclays Heartland Interiors Homebase Ashurst Young's Seafood Prescott & Conran Henri Lloyd Wrightbus All Leisure Rolls Royce Poundworld Morgan Stanley Lloyd's of London Carluccio's.
> Carphone Warehouse GSK McBride Bradford College Saints Osmund and Andrew's RC Primary School Discovery Channel Homebase Thomson Reuters Fruit of the Loom Bet365 The Pencil Case Co Cau (Gaucho) Yaskawa Wickes Aim Hire Spendlers Delisserie WuXi construction jobs WuXi PCI Pharma.
> 
> Toyella Calvatron Brands Bank of America Aptiv Bench Staffordshire children's services Glen Dimplex Poundworld Warren Evans Cloggs Lawrence Automotive Interiors Lana Bambini Jaguar Land Rover 2 Sisters EU Commission and Council Five Star Fish Tulip Foods EU Parliament.
> 
> Carpetright Linwoods Northwood Hygiene Products Johnson Tiles Ultimo lingerie Barclays Pinneys Princes (offsets Pinneys) Coca Cola Carillion Carillion EU Youth Orchestra Vauxhall dealerships Aesica Unilever Deutsche Bank JP Morgan UBS Severfield Standard Chartered New Look.
> Goldman Sachs Peter's Pies Prezzo East (fashion retail) Maplin Ryanair / Glasgow Airport Credit Suisse Carillion Sensata Landis+Gyr Byron Burger Jamie's Italian Sockmonkey Studio Carillion Wrightbus Carillion Jamie's Italian Salford Council Carillion Morrisons Lloyds Bank.
> Carillion Brush B&Q Hampshire Police Salford Council Coca Cola Jaguar Land Rover Tesco Galileo Security Surveillance Centre General Electric Vauxhall Colman's Mustard Goldman Sachs Wolseley GSK Palmer & Harvey Vivergo Fuels Multiyork Feather & Black Palmer & Harvey Interserve.
> Swindon Council Newcastle Council Northampton County Council Transport for London Arcadia Group Lloyds Pharmacies New Look Once The App Norfolk Police Misco Sainsbury's Vauxhall Lush BAE Shipyards Cummins Generator Technologies Britvic John Sisk & Sons Gurit Monarch Airlines.
> Credit Agricole Mitie Redring Xpelair Salford Council Asda Grain D'Or Witter Towbars DWP Southern Salads Wilko Sainsbury's Delphi Diesel Systems Ace Winches Greencore Group European Banking Authority Coventry Council Mondi Excelsior SNC-Lavalin Atkins Bristow Helicopters Tesco.
> West London College Birmingham City Council Brintons Credit Suisse Morgan Tucker Telford College Aberystwyth University Grundfos University of Manchester Price & Company Centrica Bath College Viking Kids Travelex Western Union Ruddocks of Lincoln British Steel Special Profiles.
> Nestle (Blue Riband) Foster & Partners Diageo Pulse Flexible Packaging BPI Protec Store Twenty One Jaeger GE Power Conversion Great Plains 2 Sisters Matalan Tesco European Medicines Agency Scottish Police Brantano Marshall Aviation Lloyd's of London Jones Bootmaker
> M&F Distribution Ordinance Survey Plumstead Manor School Lloyds Bank Coty (Rimmel London) Restaurant Group Johnson Tiles Budgens Crieff Hydro Heriot Watt University Sainsbury's Welcome Foods WNG Group Riverside Bakery (Addo Foods) Walker's Crisps Ford John Lewis Tulip Foods.
> Archant Archant Liverpool Council Tesco Honeywell Post Office Formal Affair Waitrose Bernard Matthews RBS NHS Newcastle Council Wakefield Council Walsall Council CSC Greggs Jobcentre Greggs Clydesdale Bank HSBC Prosecutions Service Quickfit Sefton Council Muller Elanco...
> 
> Post Office Tesco Jamie's Italian BBC Hewden Rivington Biscuits DHL Doosan Babcock Airbus Pfizer Pfizer ITV
> 
> For full details go to http://facebook.com/BrexitWrecksIt. Each is supported by a press article and there is a spreadsheet giving dates, no of jobs, reasons.
> 
> Fill your boots.


Hi Noush, I'm stalking you today 

I've read the methodology on the FB page, and some of them are tenuous at best.

So austerity would have been lifted if not for Brexit? Is that fact?

And I like this one

3. Barring other obvious explanations businesses that were doing okay but experienced a significant slowdown after the Brexit vote are deemed to have been impacted by Brexit.

So they are attributing losses to leaving the EU even if they aren't sure? Seems a bit off.

Job losses and slowdowns happen for all sorts of reasons.

I'm not saying there won't have been an effect, after all, the knee jerk reactions before anything has actually happened will have a knock on effect (a bit like worrying about a stock exchange crash will cause one), but I do feel there is an over egging the pudding effect here.

Feel free to tell me to shut it again if you like


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> This is before we leave. Tens of thousands (millions more~?? ) job losses to come. The cost of brexit already astronomical. Does anyone really believe our NHS will survive? We're heading for austerity on steroids.
> 
> *Brexit Job Losses ‏ @MrHickmott
> All these organisations have cut UK jobs or moved ops to the EU die to Brexit.
> At the end of the thread I will provide a link details/evidence. *
> 
> The Big Bloomer Co
> Missguided
> Citibank Survey of 200+ travel companies
> Jupiter Asset Management
> Navfor (EU piracy task force)
> MPac.
> Gaucho (remainder of group) Crantock Bakery Alan Nutall Partnership The Original Factory Shop Barclays Heartland Interiors Homebase Ashurst Young's Seafood Prescott & Conran Henri Lloyd Wrightbus All Leisure Rolls Royce Poundworld Morgan Stanley Lloyd's of London Carluccio's.
> Carphone Warehouse GSK McBride Bradford College Saints Osmund and Andrew's RC Primary School Discovery Channel Homebase Thomson Reuters Fruit of the Loom Bet365 The Pencil Case Co Cau (Gaucho) Yaskawa Wickes Aim Hire Spendlers Delisserie WuXi construction jobs WuXi PCI Pharma.
> 
> Toyella Calvatron Brands Bank of America Aptiv Bench Staffordshire children's services Glen Dimplex Poundworld Warren Evans Cloggs Lawrence Automotive Interiors Lana Bambini Jaguar Land Rover 2 Sisters EU Commission and Council Five Star Fish Tulip Foods EU Parliament.
> 
> Carpetright Linwoods Northwood Hygiene Products Johnson Tiles Ultimo lingerie Barclays Pinneys Princes (offsets Pinneys) Coca Cola Carillion Carillion EU Youth Orchestra Vauxhall dealerships Aesica Unilever Deutsche Bank JP Morgan UBS Severfield Standard Chartered New Look.
> Goldman Sachs Peter's Pies Prezzo East (fashion retail) Maplin Ryanair / Glasgow Airport Credit Suisse Carillion Sensata Landis+Gyr Byron Burger Jamie's Italian Sockmonkey Studio Carillion Wrightbus Carillion Jamie's Italian Salford Council Carillion Morrisons Lloyds Bank.
> Carillion Brush B&Q Hampshire Police Salford Council Coca Cola Jaguar Land Rover Tesco Galileo Security Surveillance Centre General Electric Vauxhall Colman's Mustard Goldman Sachs Wolseley GSK Palmer & Harvey Vivergo Fuels Multiyork Feather & Black Palmer & Harvey Interserve.
> Swindon Council Newcastle Council Northampton County Council Transport for London Arcadia Group Lloyds Pharmacies New Look Once The App Norfolk Police Misco Sainsbury's Vauxhall Lush BAE Shipyards Cummins Generator Technologies Britvic John Sisk & Sons Gurit Monarch Airlines.
> Credit Agricole Mitie Redring Xpelair Salford Council Asda Grain D'Or Witter Towbars DWP Southern Salads Wilko Sainsbury's Delphi Diesel Systems Ace Winches Greencore Group European Banking Authority Coventry Council Mondi Excelsior SNC-Lavalin Atkins Bristow Helicopters Tesco.
> West London College Birmingham City Council Brintons Credit Suisse Morgan Tucker Telford College Aberystwyth University Grundfos University of Manchester Price & Company Centrica Bath College Viking Kids Travelex Western Union Ruddocks of Lincoln British Steel Special Profiles.
> Nestle (Blue Riband) Foster & Partners Diageo Pulse Flexible Packaging BPI Protec Store Twenty One Jaeger GE Power Conversion Great Plains 2 Sisters Matalan Tesco European Medicines Agency Scottish Police Brantano Marshall Aviation Lloyd's of London Jones Bootmaker
> M&F Distribution Ordinance Survey Plumstead Manor School Lloyds Bank Coty (Rimmel London) Restaurant Group Johnson Tiles Budgens Crieff Hydro Heriot Watt University Sainsbury's Welcome Foods WNG Group Riverside Bakery (Addo Foods) Walker's Crisps Ford John Lewis Tulip Foods.
> Archant Archant Liverpool Council Tesco Honeywell Post Office Formal Affair Waitrose Bernard Matthews RBS NHS Newcastle Council Wakefield Council Walsall Council CSC Greggs Jobcentre Greggs Clydesdale Bank HSBC Prosecutions Service Quickfit Sefton Council Muller Elanco...
> 
> Post Office Tesco Jamie's Italian BBC Hewden Rivington Biscuits DHL Doosan Babcock Airbus Pfizer Pfizer ITV
> 
> For full details go to http://facebook.com/BrexitWrecksIt. Each is supported by a press article and there is a spreadsheet giving dates, no of jobs, reasons.
> 
> Fill your boots.


Very dodgy figures Noush, really maximizing blame on the Brexit effect and ignoring the other side of the equation.

While I agree that the vote and subsequent drop in sterling affected import prices and jobs, there is certain to have been at least some positives from that. E.g. export prices would have dropped just as much, increasing demand and therefore jobs. And tourism would have benefited from the UK overnight becoming a cheaper place to visit.

I really don't know why it claims austerity was deepened after the vote. The BoE cut interest rates to 0.25%, bought £70 bn of bonds to increase money supply, and provided £100 bn in cheap lending to banks. While the Chancellor might not have slashed taxes, the economy's purse strings were certainly loosened.

Plus of course there are many reasons why companies shed jobs. Assuming a blanket reason is not convincing, and smacks of favouring the result that they were looking for.

While the vote was definitely a shock to the system, and a mild forerunner of what will happen when we leave, even with a deal, but to blame all these job losses on Brexit is pushing it a bit.

What is true, but of course invisible, is that the slowdown of the economy - even while the global economy was booming - was in large part due to the vote. The country would be doing a lot better now than it is had we not voted Leave. But people don't miss what they've never had, so it is a point easily dismissed by those who want to do so.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.facebook.com/168033940480199/posts/270835950199997/


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 365693
> https://www.facebook.com/168033940480199/posts/270835950199997/


What exactly is that fb post trying to achieve?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> What exactly is that fb post trying to achieve?


Perhaps that question should be put to the current Brexit secretary Dominic Rabb who did, after all, promote the stockpiling mantra.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps that question should be put to Dominic Rabb who did, after all, promote the stockpiling mantra.


Perpetuating it is unhelpful at best and scaremongering at worst.


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> What exactly is that fb post trying to achieve?


If you actually watched it, it should be obvious that it is young people advertising their wish for a people's vote on any end deal.



MilleD said:


> Perpetuating it is unhelpful at best and scaremongering at worst.


So are you saying the government lied about stockpiling? I find it quite amusing, not being directly affected, I mean first you have a government state they are stockpiling and people should be reassured that they are doing so. Then you have Teresa May stating it's "not about stockpiling" but doing what "any business would do to prepare for all eventualities". Can you imagine a business run like the current Government and how successful it would be?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Perpetuating it is unhelpful at best and scaremongering at worst.


It is a sort of promoting what our forefathers had to do with rationing, the saying being, "We survived the war, we'll survive Brexit".

I believe there was a report of the police being called when KFC ran out of chicken once!

Even I believe some of this is a bit extreme. Certainly specialist food will become scarce or prohibitively expensive but I'm sure most of us will be happy to sacrifice our paté for a jar of Shipphams paste for example.

But I do believe prices will rise considerably. I was shocked to discover corned beef selling for £2.50 for a traditional 12oz can. It was £1.50 this time last year.

As for medical supplies this can become a problem for items not produced in the UK.


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> So are you saying the government lied about stockpiling? I find it quite amusing, not being directly affected, I mean first you have a government state they are stockpiling and people should be reassured that they are doing so. Then you have Teresa May stating it's "not about stockpiling" but doing what "any business would do to prepare for all eventualities". Can you imagine a business run like the current Government and how successful it would be?


No, I believe the government is contingency planning.

They can't win in this, if they plan for the worst, everyone says it's all going to go t!ts up and there will be no food or medicine, if they don't then people say the government don't care about the people because 'I'm alright Jack' in their ivory towers.

If it so amuses you and you are not directly affected, why do you have so many things to say about it?


----------



## KittenKong

https://brexitrecord.com/the-public-expect-a-no-deal-brexit-and-plan-to-spend-less-source-kpmg/


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> It is a sort of promoting what our forefathers had to do with rationing, the saying being, "We survived the war, we'll survive Brexit".
> 
> I believe there was a report of the police being called when KFC ran out of chicken once!
> 
> Even I believe some of this is a bit extreme. Certainly specialist food will become scarce or prohibitively expensive but I'm sure most of us will be happy to sacrifice our paté for a jar of Shipphams paste for example.
> 
> But I do believe prices will rise considerably. I was shocked to discover corned beef selling for £2.50 for a traditional 12oz can. It was £1.50 this time last year.
> 
> As for medical supplies this can become a problem for items not produced in the UK.


Well maybe all those lorries not bringing pate into the country will help reduce emissions.

Corned beef should have been banned years ago, what with those daft little keys you open the cans with.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Well maybe all those lorries not bringing pate into the country will help reduce emissions.
> 
> Corned beef should have been banned years ago, what with those daft little keys you open the cans with.


I thought they'll be more food from the US, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa (remember Cape oranges), instead of EU countries like France and Spain which won't do the carbon footprint any good either.

Ban corned beef??? Thought it was a traditional British favourite. Image the uproar if the EU considered that?!


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> No, I believe the government is contingency planning.


I agree, it is contingency planning. Part of that is stockpiling. Yes it's a good idea considering the circumstances, don't see anyone disputing that. Why do we need to even contemplate stockpiling? answer is simple.. brexit is self-harm to the UK.



> If it so amuses you and you are not directly affected, why do you have so many things to say about it?


The immediate affects of brexit do not affect me personally. That doesn't mean I, nor my family are unaffected.

Interesting you take that line as well. Does it matter why at the end of the day? By all means pull apart any of the arguments or information put forward. It doesn't make those arguments or that information any less valid even if brexit wouldn't affect me.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> I thought they'll be more food from the US, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa (remember Cape oranges), instead of EU countries like France and Spain which won't do the carbon footprint any good either.
> 
> Ban corned beef??? Thought it was a traditional British favourite. Image the uproar if the EU considered that?!


I vaguely remember JRM saying how we could get more food from US etc he was talking about how everyone will be able to buy cheap shoes too!


----------



## KittenKong

Just a reminder. .


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Just a reminder. .
> View attachment 365715


To be charitable, rather than purposely misleading the public they might genuinely have thought that would be the result of the vote. But it does show how reality requires a bit more investigation than they had undertaken.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> To be charitable, rather than purposely misleading the public they might genuinely have thought that would be the result of the vote. But it does show how reality requires a bit more investigation than they had undertaken.


Indeed. It's the "British superiority" thinking engraved upon most of us when growing up.

Like how many believe the ending of free movement will only apply to citizens coming to the UK and not vice versa.

Well, it'll come as a shock to them and they'll blame the EU for not believing the British are superior to themselves!

"Rule Britannia" is just a song, not a statement of fact.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. It's the "British superiority" thinking engraved upon most of us when growing up.
> 
> Like how many believe the ending of free movement will only apply to citizens coming to the UK and not vice versa.
> 
> Well, it'll come as a shock to them and they'll blame the EU for not believing the British are superior to themselves!
> 
> "Rule Britannia" is just a song, not a statement of fact.


I think - personal opinion - that a lot of people still see this whole negotiation as being between two equal parties; UK v. EU. They don't appreciate that we are 1 country arguing our own side against 27 countries arguing theirs, and that each of those 27 is likely to consider itself as having requirements which are equally valid and worthy of respect as the UK.


----------



## Zaros

MilleD said:


> Corned beef should have been banned years ago, what with *those daft little keys you open the cans with*.


Before the advent of central locking, those '_daft little keys'_ were excellent at opening the doors of Ford cars. They were good at turning ignitions too.

But you had to know which car was reliable because Fords were notorious for being bad starters.:Facepalm


----------



## Happy Paws2

i just think that the majority of leaves still really think the EU will give us everything we want. As I'm sure the other 27 countries couldn't careless what happens to us after we have left. Sink or swim they won't care.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> i just think that the majority of leaves still really think the EU will give us everything we want. As I'm sure the other 27 countries couldn't careless what happens to us after we have left. Sink or swim they won't care.


And why should they seeing that the UK goverment unilaterally decided to become a third country outside of Europe?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> And why should they seeing that the UK goverment unilaterally decided to become a third country outside of Europe?


Pretty sure we're still part of Europe.


----------



## MilleD

Zaros said:


> Before the advent of central locking, those '_daft little keys'_ were excellent at opening the doors of Ford cars. They were good at turning ignitions too.
> 
> But you had to know which car was reliable because Fords were notorious for being bad starters.:Facepalm


My Dad had a Ford Cortina that you could open with a couple of little wedges and a coathanger.

Good job really as he perpetually insisted on locking the keys in it...


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Pretty sure we're still part of Europe.


Geographically, yes of course. Just as the Falkland Islands are part of South America.

Yet I've heard the statement, "We're not European, we're British" many times......

On the other hand I've heard the statement that Britain was the poor man of Europe before it joined the Common Market.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Geographically, yes of course. Just as the Falkland Islands are part of South America.
> 
> Yet I've heard the statement, "We're not European, we're British" many times......


From idiots?

I'm English, I'm British, I'm European, I'm an Earthling... Being one doesn't cancel out the other.

You can bet that most nationalities of the EU would describe themselves first as of their home country though if that's what you mean so that isn't just Britain.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> From idiots?
> 
> I'm English, I'm British, I'm European, I'm an Earthling... Being one doesn't cancel out the other.
> 
> You can bet that most nationalities of the EU would describe themselves first as of their home country though if that's what you mean so that isn't just Britain.


Actually, you're right.

I'd call myself a Northumbrian first, seeing I was born in Northumberland then English European.

However, many do see "Britain" and "Europe" as completely separate identities...


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Actually, you're right.
> 
> I'd call myself a Northumbrian first, seeing I was born in Northumberland then English European.
> 
> However, many do see "Britain" and "Europe" as completely separate identities...


Then I guess I'm a Staffordian. But that does make me feel like a coach company....


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Hi Noush, I'm stalking you today
> 
> I've read the methodology on the FB page, and some of them are tenuous at best.
> 
> So austerity would have been lifted if not for Brexit? Is that fact?
> 
> And I like this one
> 
> 3. Barring other obvious explanations businesses that were doing okay but experienced a significant slowdown after the Brexit vote are deemed to have been impacted by Brexit.
> 
> So they are attributing losses to leaving the EU even if they aren't sure? Seems a bit off.
> 
> Job losses and slowdowns happen for all sorts of reasons.
> 
> I'm not saying there won't have been an effect, after all, the knee jerk reactions before anything has actually happened will have a knock on effect (a bit like worrying about a stock exchange crash will cause one), but I do feel there is an over egging the pudding effect here.
> 
> Feel free to tell me to shut it again if you like


 How very dare you!

:Mooning

No its not a fact austerity would have been lifted if not for brexit, its part & parcel of the rights neoliberal ideology, so labour (or the Greens!) would have to get in first. We can see that when we leave the EU, the austerity we've suffered for last few years is going to seem like a walk in the park to what we're going to get. You only have to understand the ideology of the key hard line brexiteers to see where this is heading. 
And I fear all but the wealthiest are going to escape the affects this time.

Austerity was always a political choice - its used as an excuse to cut the state & transfer public assets into private pockets. The people behind brexit are disaster capitalists, they are pushing us towards no deal because in the ensuing chaos they will exploit the situation for corporate profit. This means deregulation , corporations allowed free reign to pollute & plunder our country, fully privatised health service, rolling back of the welfare state, stripping us of our hard won rights - thats how disaster capitalism works. Disaster capitalists either exploit natural disasters or create disasters to exploit - its called the Shock Doctrine. A term coined by the brilliant Naomi Klein.

This is a very good article covering the subject - TTIP on steroids just like 'George :Kiss' predicted all those months ago. https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...ps-visit-marks-start-of-shock-doctrine-brexit

(see below Arnies post for more, stalker )



Arnie83 said:


> Very dodgy figures Noush, really maximizing blame on the Brexit effect and ignoring the other side of the equation.
> 
> While I agree that the vote and subsequent drop in sterling affected import prices and jobs, there is certain to have been at least some positives from that. E.g. export prices would have dropped just as much, increasing demand and therefore jobs. And tourism would have benefited from the UK overnight becoming a cheaper place to visit.
> 
> I really don't know why it claims austerity was deepened after the vote. The BoE cut interest rates to 0.25%, bought £70 bn of bonds to increase money supply, and provided £100 bn in cheap lending to banks. While the Chancellor might not have slashed taxes, the economy's purse strings were certainly loosened.
> 
> Plus of course there are many reasons why companies shed jobs. Assuming a blanket reason is not convincing, and smacks of favouring the result that they were looking for.
> 
> While the vote was definitely a shock to the system, and a mild forerunner of what will happen when we leave, even with a deal, but to blame all these job losses on Brexit is pushing it a bit.
> 
> What is true, but of course invisible, is that the slowdown of the economy - even while the global economy was booming - was in large part due to the vote. The country would be doing a lot better now than it is had we not voted Leave. But people don't miss what they've never had, so it is a point easily dismissed by those who want to do so.


Businesses dont like uncertainty and firms have a duty to their shareholders & now it looks like we are going to crash out of the EU with no deal which is the very worst possible scenario for businesses. So it sounds very feasible to me that these jobs have gone. I've just picked out a couple of companies mentioned on that list & the EMA - & it does seem like those job losses are indeed directly because of brexit. Please take a look at that John Lewis pdf.

*Lush *(picked that one though because I love Lush lol ) https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cs-firm-lush-to-look-for-expansion-outside-uk

* JOHN LEWIS* There is a very informative statement here from John Lewis on the realities of a no deal brexit - https://www.johnlewispartnership.co...-charlie-mayfield-brexit-speech-june-2018.pdf

*
European Medicines Agency - **h*ttp://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/general/general_content_001707.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac0580a809a7


----------



## noushka05

Paul Kelso, Health Correspondent Sky News >>>

*Breaking*: The government has asked pharmaceutical companies to stockpile a minimum of six weeks additional medicine in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Suppliers have also been asked to arrange for short shelf-life medicines to be air-freighted to avoid border delays

............................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

Brian Cox is not happy with useless Raab!

*Brian Cox*‏Verified account @ProfBrianCox 6h6 hours ago
Brian Cox Retweeted Bloomberg Brexit
*
This is drivel. The only way life will continue as it was before brexit in the event of a no deal brexit is not to brexit. You can't pull out of hundreds 
of international treaties and then carry on as if those treaties were still in force. Forget politics. This is just logic.*

_@bloomberg
The U.K. will signal that it wants life to continue as normal in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit, in the face of warnings that
aircraft might be grounded and hospitals run short of medicine_
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...dium=social&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit


----------



## Goblin

So bearing in mind that a "no deal brexit" isn't actually a reality at the current time but a what if, can anyone say that it is something positive for the UK?


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> So bearing in mind that a "no deal brexit" isn't actually a reality at the current time but a what if, can anyone say that it is something positive for the UK?


It's that same answer as always, I'm afraid. Many people see positives in Brexit that are not based on economics, and even a no deal outcome, unlikely though that still is, would count for them as positive.

We may disagree with them, but there is no empirical fallacy underlying such an opinion.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> How very dare you!
> 
> :Mooning
> 
> No its not a fact austerity would have been lifted if not for brexit, its part & parcel of the rights neoliberal ideology, so labour (or the Greens!) would have to get in first. We can see that when we leave the EU, the austerity we've suffered for last few years is going to seem like a walk in the park to what we're going to get. You only have to understand the ideology of the key hard line brexiteers to see where this is heading.
> And I fear all but the wealthiest are going to escape the affects this time.
> 
> Austerity was always a political choice - its used as an excuse to cut the state & transfer public assets into private pockets. The people behind brexit are disaster capitalists, they are pushing us towards no deal because in the ensuing chaos they will exploit the situation for corporate profit. This means deregulation , corporations allowed free reign to pollute & plunder our country, fully privatised health service, rolling back of the welfare state, stripping us of our hard won rights - thats how disaster capitalism works. Disaster capitalists either exploit natural disasters or create disasters to exploit - its called the Shock Doctrine. A term coined by the brilliant Naomi Klein.
> 
> This is a very good article covering the subject - TTIP on steroids just like 'George :Kiss' predicted all those months ago. https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...ps-visit-marks-start-of-shock-doctrine-brexit
> 
> (see below Arnies post for more, stalker )
> 
> Businesses dont like uncertainty and firms have a duty to their shareholders & now it looks like we are going to crash out of the EU with no deal which is the very worst possible scenario for businesses. So it sounds very feasible to me that these jobs have gone. I've just picked out a couple of companies mentioned on that list & the EMA - & it does seem like those job losses are indeed directly because of brexit. Please take a look at that John Lewis pdf.
> 
> *Lush *(picked that one though because I love Lush lol ) https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cs-firm-lush-to-look-for-expansion-outside-uk
> 
> * JOHN LEWIS* There is a very informative statement here from John Lewis on the realities of a no deal brexit - https://www.johnlewispartnership.co...-charlie-mayfield-brexit-speech-june-2018.pdf
> 
> *
> European Medicines Agency - **h*ttp://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/general/general_content_001707.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac0580a809a7


Hey, I fully understand what austerity is doing - I work for a local authority and can see it first hand. But I'm pretty sure Brexit isn't the cause - a change in Government would change austerity measures (and don't forget I'm a bit of a capitalist, but I disagree with what the tories are doing with regards austerity and outsourcing).

But I do think the first inklings of push back against outsourcing and joint ventures are starting to happen on the ground. We have a joint venture that I've been involved with and we've bought £6m worth of services back in house this year. Don't get me wrong, it cost us short term (which is why local authorities should never ever be involved in writing contracts) but long term it's better for the people we are providing the services for and ultimately will actually cost less.

Please don't mention George :Vomit or Lush if you are talking about that rank soap shop :Vomit. I physically can't breathe if I get anywhere near those places :Wacky


----------



## JANICE199

Goblin said:


> So bearing in mind that a "no deal brexit" isn't actually a reality at the current time but a what if, can anyone say that it is something positive for the UK?


*A valid question i think. As i see things, until we are either in or out for sure it's like a walk in the dark. The one thing i have noticed though, is there is more press, ect about how worse off we will be if we leave the EU. I'm thinking the opposite. ( wishful thinking perhaps, but still willing to give it a go. )*


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> It's that same answer as always, I'm afraid. Many people see positives in Brexit that are not based on economics, and even a no deal outcome, unlikely though that still is, would count for them as positive.


I do not agree that they ignore economics, simply they did not believe the UK and themselves would be worse off. It's all project fear remember. Do you really think the majority of those voting to leave accepted they would be worse off? I can agree, a minority would.


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> *Hardly anything goes from Ramsgate and i don't think Folkstone is used at all now.*


://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/protests-as-live-animal-exports-130247/
This is what is shipped from Ramsgate, @JANICE199. Remember the boatload of sheep that drowned (or had to be shot) a year or two back? That was Ramsgate. And it's still happening.


----------



## KittenKong

For two years we've been called, "Remoaners" and accused of spreading "Project Fear".

Now, someone who's never been a "Remoaner" comes up with this.

"Project Fear" from a Brexiter? 
I'll leave you to decide.


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> "Project Fear" from a Brexiter?
> I'll leave you to decide.


Still that's better than David Davis' "it will not be a mad max dystopia"


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> I do not agree that they ignore economics, simply they did not believe the UK and themselves would be worse off. It's all project fear remember. *Do you really think the majority of those voting to leave accepted they would be worse off?* I can agree, a minority would.


Absolutely not. By 'many' I didn't mean a majority, I simply meant more than a few! I think many many people voted in the hope that they would be better off. But I think that many people voted to Leave because of non-economic reasons - EU interference, migration, just don't like the EU, etc. For them, or at least some of them, economic costs are a price worth paying.

I think we're in full agreement.


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> A valid question i think. As i see things, until we are either in or out for sure it's like a walk in the dark. The one thing i have noticed though, is there is more press, ect about how worse off we will be if we leave the EU. *I'm thinking the opposite.* ( wishful thinking perhaps, but still willing to give it a go. )**


Treading on thin ice, and ready to make for the safety of dry land at any moment ...

May I ask if the bolded bit means you think we will be financially better off? And if so what makes you think that?


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> ://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/protests-as-live-animal-exports-130247/
> This is what is shipped from Ramsgate, @JANICE199. Remember the boatload of sheep that drowned (or had to be shot) a year or two back? That was Ramsgate. And it's still happening.


I can remember the RSPSA campaign c. 1975 again it , and later protests at the docks over the years . One woman was killed by a lorry . 
It just *has* to end soon .


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> It just *has* to end soon .


Yet leaving the EU does not necessarily mean the ability to ban live animal transport. Banning it is, by default, also against WTO rules. There is however the possibility of getting an exemption from the WTO similar to some other countries. Then there's the question about any brexit deal struck.. who is to say the UK will not be committed to allow the trade at least for a "transitional period"?

I agree it should be stopped but not as simple as simply leaving the EU allows it. It also not as simple as parliament making a law against it if the WTO says no to an exemption.

I think it also shows a misunderstanding of what the WTO means. As part of the EU people complained about being told what to do by a group of democratically elected people where we had a voice (3rd largest amount of votes as well). Instead somehow we are free as we are being told what to do by an unelected group of people making rules where we do not have a voice. Go figure.

EDIT: Short addition.. does mean even if live animal transport ban is passed through parliament, continual pressure needs to be continued.


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Yet leaving the EU does not necessarily mean the ability to ban live animal transport. Banning it is, by default, also against WTO rules. There is however the possibility of getting an exemption from the WTO similar to some other countries. Then there's the question about any brexit deal struck.. who is to say the UK will not be committed to allow the trade at least for a "transitional period"?
> 
> I agree it should be stopped but not as simple as simply leaving the EU allows it. It also not as simple as parliament making a law against it if the WTO says no to an exemption.


Indeed. And why think this government who engage in badger baiting and vow to bring back Foxhunting have any regard for animal welfare?


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. And why think this government who engage in badger baiting and vow to bring back Foxhunting have any regard for animal welfare?


Because Gove is desparate to dissassociate himself with brexit and the promises of the leave campaign  Doesn't mean any policies would have to be effective, simply newsworthy.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> EDIT: Short addition.. does mean even if live animal transport ban is passed through parliament, continual pressure needs to be continued.


yes, agree 
I don't think this Government want it to pass , any government who bans it wold have to deal with a backlash from those who profit by it.


----------



## Zaros

FeelTheBern said:


> Why are we, as a forum, obsessed with anything and everything relating to Brexit? Brexit threads always turn sour and end up closed, so can't we find something else to discuss?


How about cars?

Apparently, the automotive giant, Ford, claim they are about to release the Brexit. Although they haven't yet disclosed what the vehicle is actually based on.


----------



## Arnie83

Hammond reiterates that a no-deal Brexit will hit GDP growth to the tune of 7.7% over 15 years, which is a mid-range projection in much the same ballpark as those by every other business / economic / academic study that I've seen*

It would be interesting if Rees-Mogg were to question the basis or assumptions for the projection (and all the others that agree with it). But his response?

As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

The naysayers in the Treasury have consistently wanted to paint a bleak picture because they are frightened of taking responsibility for managing the economy without the crutch of the EU. It is a sign of their weakness.​
He attacks Hammond, and impugns the ability, credibility and professionalism of the Treasury staff. Nice. I really don't like the gentleman.

* Excepting Minford's Economists for Free Trade whio propose removing all tariffs, trade restrictions, regulations, standards etc. in order to come up with a ludicrous gain


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Hammond reiterates that a no-deal Brexit will hit GDP growth to the tune of 7.7% over 15 years, which is a mid-range projection in much the same ballpark as those by every other business / economic / academic study that I've seen*
> 
> It would be interesting if Rees-Mogg were to question the basis or assumptions for the projection (and all the others that agree with it). But his response?
> 
> As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
> 
> The naysayers in the Treasury have consistently wanted to paint a bleak picture because they are frightened of taking responsibility for managing the economy without the crutch of the EU. It is a sign of their weakness.​
> He attacks Hammond, and impugns the ability, credibility and professionalism of the Treasury staff. Nice. I really don't like the gentleman.
> 
> * Excepting Minford's Economists for Free Trade whio propose removing all tariffs, trade restrictions, regulations, standards etc. in order to come up with a ludicrous gain


Somewhat worrying that, even in this day and age, he still peddles the quaint notion the Treasury controls the economy!


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Somewhat worrying that, even in this day and age, he still peddles the quaint notion the Treasury controls the economy!


It would be nice to see an Andrew Neil type sit opposite him and suggest:

*If the costs of doing business rise, economic growth slows down.*​
And let him try to dispute it.


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> Treading on thin ice, and ready to make for the safety of dry land at any moment ...
> 
> May I ask if the bolded bit means you think we will be financially better off? And if so what makes you think that?


*I think we will be better off. The way i see things, and i could well be wrong is this. Our money and how we spend it will be done to us. ( i hope). So if say we decide our NHS needs more money than say, foreign aid, then we give more to the NHS. I'm probably a bit green in this field. lol. But give us our own money and we will learn as we go. BUT, we need a decent government to achieve this.*


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I think we will be better off. The way i see things, and i could well be wrong is this. Our money and how we spend it will be done to us. ( i hope). So if say we decide our NHS needs more money than say, foreign aid, then we give more to the NHS. I'm probably a bit green in this field. lol. But give us our own money and we will learn as we go. BUT, we need a decent government to achieve this.*


It isn't "Our" money, "Our" laws etc. Etc. We have absolutely no say in how it's spent. Theresa May and her yes men have control over it.


----------



## Goblin

JANICE199 said:


> *I think we will be better off*.


Just for clarification, do you mean financially as in the government will have more money?

*



The way i see things, and i could well be wrong is this. Our money and how we spend it will be done to us. ( i hope). So if say we decide our NHS needs more money than say, foreign aid, then we give more to the NHS. I'm probably a bit green in this field. lol. But give us our own money and we will learn as we go. BUT, we need a decent government to achieve this.

Click to expand...

*Doesn't the government already determine where it spends it's money? Yes, when in the EU we pay for membership but it's been proven again and again that there will be no 350million a week Brexit dividend. No extra money to spend. Brexit has cost the UK an estimated £49,820,308,028 (as of time of writing) in lost GDP since the referendum. That's without the full implications of leaving (especially the single market/customs union) being felt.

As for the future:





So unless someone who supports leave is able to produce any reasoning why the UK will be better off, other than soundbites, it comes down to other "advantages" to leaving rather than economics. I think the economic discussion has been lost by the leave campaign ages ago, summed up quite nicely by the "350million a week extra we can spend on the NHS" at the referendum to "you'll still be able to eat your BLT" sort of statement yesterday.

You then obviously have the "not be dictated to by unelected bureaucrats".. like the WTO or "Regain Sovereignty" by abiding by the rules imposed by the WTO.

Edit: Just to say, economically, the general population will be worse off. I am sure there are those who will be able to exploit the situation and gain from brexit. It simply will not be the average person.


----------



## KittenKong

So much for the Tory rebels, excepting Kenneth Clarke....

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...trip-right-equality-eu-withdrawal-bill/22/11/

















Party before country as per usual.


----------



## Arnie83

For interest:

The head of the World Trade Organization (WTO), Roberto Azevedo gives a warning about the idea that the UK can leave the EU and just trade with other countries 'on WTO terms' as the Rees-Moggites suggest. We have to agree our schedules and quotas first, something some have said is easy in the time available:

*The moment that other countries begin to sense an opportunity to increase the market share or increase the quota here or there, they're going to go for that. There will be a lot of uncertainty here, there will be a lot of unpredictability. It is very unlikely that you're going to have 100 per cent agreed outcome for all WTO members between now and March.*​
He also said that in the event of No Deal:

*The EU cannot discriminate among the WTO members . . . The other members pay tariffs, so the UK will have to pay tariffs as well.*​
So when you hear some commentators saying that the EU is looking to 'punish' the UK, it is only following the rules of the WTO, as it has to do.

In general, he says of the No Deal Brexit:

* There will be an impact - it may be larger or smaller depending on the sector . . . It's not going to be the end of the world . . . but it's not going to be a walk in the park either.*​


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *I think we will be better off. The way i see things, and i could well be wrong is this. Our money and how we spend it will be done to us. ( i hope). So if say we decide our NHS needs more money than say, foreign aid, then we give more to the NHS. I'm probably a bit green in this field. lol. But give us our own money and we will learn as we go. BUT, we need a decent government to achieve this.*


Thanks for answering. A few figures, which may be interesting, or not!

Our EU fees (2016, figures from Office of National Statistics) were £13.7 bn, or 1.7% of government spending, so we're not talking huge changes.

Of that £13.7 bn, £5.6 bn was then spent in the UK by the EU, but yes that could be spent on our own priorities if they differed from the EU's, (though a lot of current beneficiaries would be disappointed).

And Yes, the £8.1 bn would be available to spend on other stuff as we wished.

BUT (there had to be a 'but' or two! ) here's a quote from the Institute of Fiscal Studies, which is widely respected:

"the impact of Brexit on the wider economy is likely to have a greater impact than the amount the UK will get back from reduced EU contributions"​
i.e. we will have had more of our own money to play with had we stayed than we will when we leave, even taking the fees 'windfall' into account.

The Office for Budget Responsibility calculate the hit to government finances as about £15 bn a year by the 2020s. So we will (by their calculations) actually have £7 bn less to spend by then after we leave than had we stayed.

In short (too late, you shout!) you're absolutely right; we will get some money back to do with what we will. But we would have had even more money, even after paying EU fees, had we chosen to remain. But that's the choice that people have made. And, of course, the likes of Rees-Mogg would rubbish the figures in this post, though I've never heard them give actual reasons for doing so.


----------



## Eeyore

Does anyone remember how seriously recession affected lots of people? It is no joke especially for many families or those wanting to start in life (=get a job, a place to live, etc.). I read that poverty affects even toddlers. Apparently if a toddler grows up in poverty, it affects his/her future way more than we thought. 

So, if the best scenario of Brexit is that "it can´t be worse than the WW2, and we coped with that", is it really something Britain should aim at going through? The glorious future of Great Britain has become "it can´t be worse that the WW2". I´m sure most people hadn´t that in mind when they voted leave.


----------



## Colliebarmy

Eeyore said:


> Does anyone remember how seriously recession affected lots of people? It is no joke especially for many families or those wanting to start in life (=get a job, a place to live, etc.). I read that poverty affects even toddlers. Apparently if a toddler grows up in poverty, it affects his/her future way more than we thought.
> 
> So, if the best scenario of Brexit is that "it can´t be worse than the WW2, and we coped with that", is it really something Britain should aim at going through? *The glorious future of Great Britain* has become "it can´t be worse that the WW2". I´m sure most people hadn´t that in mind when they voted leave.


What future?

PMSL


----------



## Colliebarmy

wasnt there a fuss about money spent on the Brexit vote?

So how about this to defeat democracy?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45235655


----------



## KittenKong

Eeyore said:


> So, if the best scenario of Brexit is that "it can´t be worse than the WW2, and we coped with that", is it really something Britain should aim at going through? The glorious future of Great Britain has become "it can´t be worse that the WW2". I´m sure most people hadn´t that in mind when they voted leave.


They seems to be some romantic vision of what our forefathers had to endure.

It's a damn sight insult to suggest WE coped when the truth is those under 70 didn't and weren't even born when the war was fought.

Our forefathers fought against fascism, made many sacrifices and lost loved ones. They then endured austerity and rationing to ensure future generations wouldn't have to.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

Well, if we're on an animal theme, this both makes me giggle and sigh, as it's pretty much what out politicians have done since triggering Article 50...


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> wasnt there a fuss about money spent on the Brexit vote?
> 
> So how about this to defeat democracy?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45235655


There are rules on spending in referendums as per the electoral commission. The recent fuss was because Vote.Leave broke the rules, and the law.

https://www.electoralcommission.org...ampaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums

For ongoing campaigns such as Brexit, anti-hunt campaigning, etc there are no such restrictions. People are free to donate whatever they like.

Arron Banks, for example, donated a million pounds to UKIP in 2014, just as the guy in the link has donated to the People's Vote group.

And in elections themselves, the Tories can draw on an awful lot more money that the other parties thanks to rich donors who tend to support them,

Where that all leaves democracy is a moot point.


----------



## cheekyscrip

People voted to Leave not only for 350 mob on the buses but some actually realised that UK will be worse off. Though the non economic reasons made it worthwhile.
While the economic consequences are felt already - the non economic ones are still a dream - unless you wished to replace immigration from EU by non EU.
Not being sarcastic - many Asian communities supported Leave to have more chance to bring over their relatives from non EU countries.
It seems it is happening now - EU migration especially from richer EU countries reverses but non EU countries is another story.

Our economy was growing, we had freedom to travel, work, study in EU. Our universities were full of foreign students, full of best staff.

Gibraltar, Nothern Ireland were safe.
Our City was the capital of finance.

Why , but why to give it all up for WTO rules and blue passports?


----------



## KittenKong

Great to hear from you Cheeky.

The closer Brexit becomes the more dispondent I become. I find most humour associated with it no longer funny. It's no laughing matter.

Not only Brexit itself but control from a government who make Thatcher appear Socialist in comparison. Represents everything I hate.

But this from Private Eye made me chuckle


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45299309
















Thoughts about this. Didn't the UK right wing media blame Gordon Brown for the global economic crisis ten years ago???


----------



## cheekyscrip

Oh, the insult ! Sky News announced that the con


KittenKong said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45299309
> 
> View attachment 365992
> View attachment 365993
> 
> Thoughts about this. Didn't the right wing media blame Gordon Brown for the global economic crisis ten years ago???


EU can blame UK, UK - Brexit politicians will blame EU for Brexit fiasco....

Then lots of simply lame political or economic decisions will be blamed on Brexit, in UK, in EU ... easily swept into the general chaos.

As to "we survived WW2"...in context of Brexit chaos.
UK survived WW2, but for pit sake - did not start it!!!
Imagine Germany saying that!!!


----------



## Calvine

FeelTheBern said:


> Yes, I know it's an important topic, but why must we discuss it so excessively?


There is one group who seem to see themselves as latter-day apostles spreading the word of anti-Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> There is one group who seem to see themselves as latter-day apostles spreading the word of anti-Brexit.


Well I don't think Dominic Raab was particulary positive about Brexit himself was he!


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> There is one group who seem to see themselves as latter-day apostles spreading the word of anti-Brexit.


While there is still considerable doubt about whether Brexit will be soft, hard, or 'no deal', I find myself interested in the direction of travel.

I post in answer to questions, and also to provide information that I find interesting, in case others do too. That's how forums operate really; replying to other posts, swapping information, sometimes stating opinions.

I don't see myself as any sort of 'apostle'. If the information comes across as anti-Brexit, I suspect that is because there is little pro-Brexit information coming to light. Certainly the economic news lacks any credible upside; mostly it consists of downside predictions from all quarters, followed by Rees-Mogg or IDS saying "Rubbish" and attacking the source, but not coming up with a substantive argument to back up their dismissals.

It would be nice if there was some good news emerging, so do post some if you find it.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Dominic Rabb


Raab.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Raab.


Regardless of how his name is spelt he's still a B*****d....

Typo amended. Thank you for pointing it out


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> While there is still considerable doubt about whether Brexit will be soft, hard, or 'no deal', I find myself interested in the direction of travel.
> 
> I post in answer to questions, and also to provide information that I find interesting, in case others do too. That's how forums operate really; replying to other posts, swapping information, sometimes stating opinions.
> 
> I don't see myself as any sort of 'apostle'. If the information comes across as anti-Brexit, I suspect that is because there is little pro-Brexit information coming to light. Certainly the economic news lacks any credible upside; mostly it consists of downside predictions from all quarters, followed by Rees-Mogg or IDS saying "Rubbish" and attacking the source, but not coming up with a substantive argument to back up their dismissals.
> 
> It would be nice if there was some good news emerging, so do post some if you find it.


Don't hold your breath though...


----------



## KittenKong

Thought the Business Insider were rather pro Brexit, at least pro Tory, so this is an interesting article from them.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bre...-million-a-week-from-economy-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T


----------



## Eeyore

Are most quality newspapers against Brexit then, including the conservative ones and only Murdoc´s tabloids for it? That is interesting, as you´d think that at least the conservative ones would support current government, no matter what.


----------



## KittenKong

More reasons to boycott Wetherspoons.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...og-ban-uk-pubs-chain-pet-owners-a8506476.html


----------



## KittenKong

I think the only anti Brexit papers are the Independent and The Guardian/Observer. Possibility the Daily Mirror too but never really sure where they stand.

The rest, whether tabloid or quality are most certainly pro Brexit. The Telegraph especially from the latter.


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> There is one group who seem to see themselves as latter-day apostles spreading the word of anti-Brexit.


Quite telling how rather than actually add to the discussion many attempt to simply denigrate those who do. Why is that I wonder? What is so frightening about discussion?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Quite telling how rather than actually add to the discussion many attempt to simply denigrate those who do. Why is that I wonder? What is so frightening about discussion?


It is when you lack arguments, it is like shooting with no ammo.
All you have is to say "bah humbug"! It may not raab well...neither reece nor mogg...


----------



## KittenKong

This is almost funny. An immigrant complaining about immigration!

Seen on Facebook.


----------



## KittenKong

.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg_uk_5b81cea2e4b07295151373ae

They really are taking their country back aren't they?


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> More reasons to boycott Wetherspoons.
> View attachment 366052


Where will all the lads go for a one night stand now, I wonder?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> More reasons to boycott Wetherspoons.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...og-ban-uk-pubs-chain-pet-owners-a8506476.html
> View attachment 366052


Bl**dy Cheeky Bug****S when was the last time a dog wreaked a pub on a Saturday night.


----------



## Arnie83

Jacob Rees-Mogg on the Irish border after Brexit ...

"There would be our ability, as we had during the Troubles, to have people inspected. It's not a border that everyone has to go through every day. But, of course, for security reasons during the Troubles, we kept a very close eye on the border to try and stop gun-running and things like that. It's not inconsistent to have a border that people can pass through but you are keeping an eye on."​
I think he needs to clarify how he intends that this would work in a way that is compatible with having no hard border and not endangering the Good Friday agreement.

Which is a nice way of saying that I think he's an ideological nutcase.


----------



## Eeyore

Am I right to understand that the group defending Brexit are: really rich, who don´t like to pay taxes at all (e.g. tabloid owners have several on going disputes with paying taxes), really rich, who don´t like red tape (= laws protecting consumer/ environmental/workers rights), nationalistic parties all over Europe (=all nationalistic parties openly say that they too want Brexit), Putin and Trump (both have expressed how weak EU would be good). Plus many ordinary people, who thought Britain would be better of without EU, as there was not enough money for NHS etc. and that EU dictated to Britain how British should run their country, especially immigration. 

Now when more and more people have become aware that there will be much less money for Britain after Brexit and EU never had the power to dictate anything to Britain, even about immigration, more and more people are starting to change their minds, as even the best possible scenario is still not as good as a full membership in EU. So why would Britain want to still have Brexit? I understand why the millionaires and tabloid owners want Brexit, but why an ordinary person wants to leave EU? I just can´t figure it out. Or is it something no one dares to say public?


----------



## Arnie83

Eeyore said:


> Am I right to understand that the group defending Brexit are: really rich, who don´t like to pay taxes at all (e.g. tabloid owners have several on going disputes with paying taxes), really rich, who don´t like red tape (= laws protecting consumer/ environmental/workers rights), nationalistic parties all over Europe (=all nationalistic parties openly say that they too want Brexit), Putin and Trump (both have expressed how weak EU would be good). Plus many ordinary people, who thought Britain would be better of without EU, as there was not enough money for NHS etc. and that EU dictated to Britain how British should run their country, especially immigration.
> 
> Now when more and more people have become aware that there will be much less money for Britain after Brexit and EU never had the power to dictate anything to Britain, even about immigration, more and more people are starting to change their minds, as even the best possible scenario is still not as good as a full membership in EU. So why would Britain want to still have Brexit? I understand why the millionaires and tabloid owners want Brexit, but why an ordinary person wants to leave EU? I just can´t figure it out. Or is it something no one dares to say public?


I think the really rich will find a way of making money out of the situation whether the UK leave as planned or something happens to change that. A number of them certainly want to reduce regulations / red tape, including measures safeguarding the environment and human workers.

And on the immigration issue, certainly freedom of movement meant that the UK could not simply close its borders, were that something that it wanted to do. We had more control than was sometimes suggested, in that we always had the power to deport EU citizens who had not found a job after three months, but chose not to enforce that. And the will to reduce immigration numbers to the tens of thousands was cast into doubt by the fact that non-EU migrants exceeded that number on their own without the government doing much.

But yes, the nationalist parties all want the break-up of the EU, as do Putin and Trump for different reasons.

I believe that some people still do not accept that the country will be worse off after Brexit, though no-one can credibly suggest an alternative scenario. Ordinary people who have not taken much of an interest since the vote in 2016 will be aware of economic warnings and of dismissals of those warnings as 'project fear', and will make up their own minds what to believe.

Otherwise I think the reason many still want Brexit is a feeling that the country should not be subject to what they see as excessive instructions from a body other than its own Parliament. The likes of Rees-Mogg and his supporters seem to think that such a situation is an affront to a nation like the UK.

In the Sun today, David Davis says that when the UK leaves the EU "this great country can take its proper place in the world". I doubt that involves creating a new Empire, but he - and many others I think - clearly believe that our "proper place" is rather more elevated than the one they see us currently occupying.

There is also a feeling I think - though it seems daft to me - that because we voted to leave two years ago, we really ought to do so despite the new information that has come to light since then.


----------



## Eeyore

Thanks Arnie. Somehow I don´t think Britain´s "place" will be better after Brexit, on the contrary, a poorer Britain will have less power and will have to take what is given rather than choose what it likes, like now. If some one wants to have back the good old times, when it did rule the world, well, they´d need a time machine. And even then the time was good only for the few. 

I believe what you say about the rich people, they are always prepared before the rest of the nation and will benefit from all possible outcomes. Corporations have army of lawyers and economist to have plans for every situation. The rest will just have to deal with the losses the best they can. How can a normal business plan ahead if they have no idea what Brexit really is only a few months before Britain is supposed to leave EU? Or an average person? The way this is going is just not fair, no matter what the outcome, all should have had much more information and time to know what Brexit means and then enough time to plan ahead.


----------



## Elles

We’ve had Brexit threads running on for pages where people have dared to say why they voted leave and why they still would. They have pretty much all left now.


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## cheekyscrip

The Sunday Tines today: NoDeal Brexit will leave Gibraltar on the rocks - at mercy of Madrid.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> The Sunday Tines today: NoDeal Brexit will leave Gibraltar on the rocks - at mercy of Madrid.


Yes it would. I don't know enough about it to be anything other than tentative, but it seems to me that while the residents of La Linea would not be happy with the Spanish government snarling up the border and the Rock, they might just do it anyway unless there was a Brexit deal in place to stop them.

I really can't see the UK Parliament allowing No Deal to go through, though. They can't be that irresponsible, can they?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really don't think the people who voted leave had any real idea of the imprecations the leave vote would mean to people, it's OK to say we what to rule ourselves and make our own deals, but at what cost. 

Like it or not, we knew where we were in the world and had a big say in the EU we could help change laws and rules. So what happens now, we are a small island with not as many friends as we think we have, and how long will it take to get new deals, I dread to think.


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> We've had Brexit threads running on for pages where people have dared to say why they voted leave and why they still would. They have pretty much all left now.


Yes we have, reasons which, when facts have been added, don't stand up. It generally always comes back to "I believe" or "I want to believe" even when the evidence shows the opposite. You then have those who try to make excuses yet still cannot provide anything other than, when it comes down to it, I decided years ago I don't like the EU and nothing is going to change that. Then there's those who admit freely simply they do not like the EU without making empty exuses. The latter is one I can understand most as the EU is far from perfect even if it is better than the alternatives.

Has been interesting to see the realities and the reasons/excuses people voted, even what they expect from it has changed as time has gone on though.



Happy Paws said:


> I really don't think the people who voted leave had any real idea of the imprecations the leave vote would mean to people


The same goes for those who voted to remain. Nobody knew the full details, only some of which are coming known now. The referendum was a vote of people making an uninformed choice. Remember the classic google statistic the day after the referendum? What was the question most searched for in the UK.. something like "what is the EU".


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Yes we have, reasons which, when facts have been added, don't stand up. It generally always comes back to "I believe" or "I want to believe" even when the evidence shows the opposite. You then have those who try to make excuses yet still cannot provide anything other than, when it comes down to it, I decided years ago I don't like the EU and nothing is going to change that. Then there's those who admit freely simply they do not like the EU without making empty exuses. The latter is one I can understand most as the EU is far from perfect even if it is better than the alternatives.
> 
> Has been interesting to see the realities and the reasons/excuses people voted, even what they expect from it has changed as time has gone on though.
> 
> The same goes for those who voted to remain. Nobody knew the full details, only some of which are coming known now. The referendum was a vote of people making an uninformed choice. Remember the classic google statistic the day after the referendum? What was the question most searched for in the UK.. something like "what is the EU".


Yet people just do not like changing their mind.

Remember the simple experiment on it?
The shade of green/blue was used - which by 50/50 was described blue or green by control sample.

They they asked another group to see the colour and decide green or blue.
Once people decided one way or other - then chosen colour - say blue was shade by shade by shade changed to the other?
It was quite incredible how long people persisted - how green they seen the blue and vice versa...
Something that actually meant nothing in their life yet to change their opinions once decided was really hard.

We are just leaning to find anything to support our choice once made and reject facts that prove otherwise.
If nothing found to dismiss them we will just say " rubbish " or avoid the topic altogether.

Simply admitting being wrong makes us feel bad about ourselves and our ego goes a long way to protect itself.

Our emotions stand in the way of reasoning and most catastrophic decisions could be hold on to...
Business, relations, anything...

Brexit was uninformed choice and we know more now that clearly indicates that it was a wrong one.


----------



## Elles

Probably best to not talk about other people and what you think they think. Millions of people voted in the referendum, we can’t possibly know what they all think, back then or now, whichever way they voted.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Probably best to not talk about other people and what you think they think. Millions of people voted in the referendum, we can't possibly know what they all think, back then or now, whichever way they voted.


You are right. We do however know some information such as the majority who voted leave did not vote to leave the customs union and single market. We know the majority did not vote for what is now known as "hard brexit". We know immigration was a major reason for voting to leave. If the government had actually used the information gathered by the referendum it could have actually done positive things removing the reasons why a lot of people voted to leave without actually leaving and damaging the country.


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## Elles

I don’t know any of those things. Where did you get the information? There was nothing on the voting paper that asked why people voted the way they did.


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## Eeyore

Elles said:


> We've had Brexit threads running on for pages where people have dared to say why they voted leave and why they still would. They have pretty much all left now.


The question was general question, not aimed at asking why people on PF voted the way they did. It is so difficult to find out about the reasons for voting for Brexit, so I wondered is there something that you could read between the lines or something that people don´t just like to talk in public, hence the word dare. Nothing to do with PF Brexit- threads.



Elles said:


> Probably best to not talk about other people and what you think they think. Millions of people voted in the referendum, we can't possibly know what they all think, back then or now, whichever way they voted.


Usually people know why they vote for a certain party, and opinions both for and against are easy to read everywhere and lots of people are quite happy to share them. I hoped that as the deadline for Brexit is coming closer and more information is available, we´d be able to get more reasons also why people voted for Brexit.

At the moment we get lots of financial analysis, which is pretty much against leaving EU, but there must be more, like already have been suggested. But suggestions are not the same as people saying themselves why they want to leave now, once there is so much more information available. But I wouldn´t dream that anyone on PF would say how they voted or why, unless they really want to, but surely there are other sources to tell why some want still to leave EU. Could it be possible to talk about Brexit beyond PF- member´s personal´s opinions? Naturally we can share them, but we don´t have to.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I don't know any of those things. Where did you get the information? There was nothing on the voting paper that asked why people voted the way they did.


You do realise people get asked loads of questions before and after they actually vote, even at the polling station? That information is available from various sources. If you don't agree with polls, the referendum was also at the end, a poll.


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## Arnie83

Good post-Brexit news after Fox talked to China's Commerce Minister ...

A statement from China's commerce ministry said that the two countries [UK & China] agreed to "actively explore the possibility of discussing a top-notch free trade agreement between the two sides after Brexit".

Not sure if "actively explore the possibility of discussing" is sufficiently close to a dead cert trade deal to stake the country's future on, but at least they didn't say No!


----------



## Elles

How can we? There are probably Facebook pages and political sources where individuals who aren't on petforums discuss their reasons. The huge majority of petforum members posting about Brexit are people who want to stay with the Eu. Those who want/ed to leave have stopped posting and reading. There are so many assumptions made about them and their reasons, which are called 'excuses' or dismissed out of hand as irrelevant, that there's little point their discussing it.

I myself have posted a number of specific ways I feel the Eu are not acting in our best interests, the environment's best interest, or on behalf of animal welfare, but it either wasn't read (I've been asked to repeat it and provide the links again) or brushed off.

I actually voted remain despite my misgivings about the Eu. I wasn't brave enough to vote leave, mainly given our current government (and that at the time) so thought it was the wrong time to leave. I applaud those who stood by their principles whichever way they voted, but I do feel that leave voters get an unfair press here, and that discussing reasons we've read in the press, on Facebook and Twitter, especially from extremists on both sides, leads to ill-feeling, when those reasons are not applicable to petforum posters.

Links please @Goblin There was no one asking how we voted and if we wanted to leave the single market, or talking about hard and soft brexits outside my polling station.

That our government and the Eu currently appear to be making a pig's ear of it, can't be blamed on voters, who voted Cameron in and expected him to be the one taking it forward.

We could still all be wrong. It may work out in the final days, we may not leave, or leave in name only. It may be that are advantageous deals and decisions being taken behind the scenes that we know nothing about. That the government are preparing for a time of no-man's land doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm glad they are preparing for it, they will be the cause of it, if it happens.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> You do realise people get asked loads of questions before and after they actually vote, even at the polling station? That information is available from various sources.


I remember social scientists had their field day!!! All kind of correlations, all kind of comparisons, expectations form Brexit etc...
Volumes of very interesting stuff.
All possible factor analysis, tends, tendencies.... widely published.
If I remember rightly what voters thought about immigration was an important factor along with age, level of education, place of residence, ethnicity, income just to name a few...


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## rona

Goblin said:


> You are right. We do however know some information such as the majority who voted leave did not vote to leave the customs union and single market. We know the majority did not vote for what is now known as "hard brexit".
> .


I voted for all of the above



cheekyscrip said:


> I remember social scientists had their field day!!! All kind of correlations, all kind of comparisons, expectations form Brexit etc...
> Volumes of very interesting stuff.
> All possible factor analysis, tends, tendencies.... widely published.
> If I remember rightly what voters thought about immigration was an important factor along with age, level of education, place of residence, ethnicity, income just to name a few...


Deja moo


----------



## Arnie83

@Elles Personally I'm more concerned about what happens going forward than in looking back, but ever keen to oblige I hope this helps answer your question. 

Lord Ashcroft did some extensive post-referendum polling with these results. An interesting question is whether May's Chequers proposal gives the Leave voters what they wanted. I'd have to say that it doesn't do much to satisfy #1, and that while #2 is satisfied in spirit, whether in practice we will see much difference is open to question. I don't think I'll comment on #3.


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> How can we? There are probably Facebook pages and political sources where individuals who aren't on petforums discuss their reasons. The huge majority of petforum members posting about Brexit are people who want to stay with the Eu. Those who want/ed to leave have stopped posting and reading. There are so many assumptions made about them and their reasons, which are called 'excuses' or dismissed out of hand as irrelevant, that there's little point their discussing it.


Yet the majority of those who did post couldn't back their arguments up with facts or argue against the evidence which showed their arguments were false or based on lies to begin with.



> I myself have posted a number of specific ways I feel the Eu are not acting in our best interests, the environment's best interest, or on behalf of animal welfare, but it either wasn't read (I've been asked to repeat it and provide the links again) or brushed off.


Yet even there you fail to acknowledge the positives of the EU. You've given one or two examples which are dependent not only on things like government commitment to implement advantageous policies but also to stand up to things like the WTO. You seem to fail to even acknowledge the reason why the majority of environment/animal groups did not back leaving the EU as it would make things worse, not better, especially given the history of the government and previous governments. Unfortunately although it's another topic, the UK voting system as is, does not allow the government to really be held accountable for it's actions. Leaving the EU removes a level of being able to hold the government to account.



> Links please @Goblin There was no one asking how we voted and if we wanted to leave the single market, or talking about hard and soft brexits outside my polling station.


Well you can start with https://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/NatCen_Brexplanations-report-FINAL-WEB2.pdf for example.



> That our government and the Eu currently appear to be making a pig's ear of it, can't be blamed on voters, who voted Cameron in and expected him to be the one taking it forward.


Actually it can be blamed on voters partly. I mean what did "leave" mean? You are also right however that blame lies on the government. Government's own research has pointed out that referendums are fatally flawed. Let's face it Cameron used the referendum in a doomed attempt to try and close down dissent in his own party.



Arnie83 said:


> Not sure if "actively explore the possibility of discussing" is sufficiently close to a dead cert trade deal to stake the country's future on, but at least they didn't say No!


Very much depends on the terms of any trade deal. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/societ...appointed-with-china-free-trade-deal/44112310 Part of me fears the influence of China taking over key parts of UK infrastructure and utilities.


----------



## Elles

Everyone I’ve spoken to who voted leave, hoped to be out within weeks if not days. Keep to our commitments for the next few years, where the U.K. has committed to paying for specific things, but no delay, no article 50, no divorce payments and no single market. Just out and the government start negotiations with countries outside of the Eu that we aren’t permitted to deal with inside it. Commonwealth countries and fast improving countries, such as those in Asia. If any country can go it alone, the U.K. should be able to.

Then start improving on our own conditions and laws, free from Eu constraint. Talk of a European army had many people concerned too. It wasn’t just ‘immigration’ though Europe didn’t seem to have much of a handle on that either, with people drowning and the Calais jungle. A fresh start, away from the Juggernaut the Eu has become. If people had to tighten their belts for a while they felt it was worth it, for a future outside of the Eu.

The government has stifled any enthusiasm, with their negotiations, delaying, faffing about and the scaremongering getting out of hand imo. I would agree that no one is happy with how the conservative government are handling it.


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> Talk of a European army had many people concerned too.


So can you tell me which country has even proposed giving up soldiers and their sovereignty for an EU army?


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## Elles

I’ve given a number of specific examples to demonstrate the general view, position and standing of the Eu on various issues. They aren’t isolated cases. As I said, these are important issues to me personally, but despite that I voted remain, as I don’t trust current (or previous) government to implement change in a way I would think positive. If anyone in this whole farce has been proved right, it’s me.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> So can you tell me which country has even proposed giving up soldiers and their sovereignty for an EU army?


'Talk of a European army' it's still ongoing. The Eu would like members to contribute towards an overall European army, be that an extra or instead of. It was one of the 'talks' that concerned people.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Very much depends on the terms of any trade deal. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/societ...appointed-with-china-free-trade-deal/44112310 Part of me fears the influence of China taking over key parts of UK infrastructure and utilities.


Personally I think a trade deal with China is a very long way off and would contain so many restrictions that it would be little different to trading with them as we do now.

It certainly wouldn't be a 'free trade' deal, and you only have to look at the Chinese advantages in labour costs to see why. If UK industry was not protected it would quickly go the same way as Monty Python's Norwegian Blue parrot, and would cease to be.

All these trade visits and a deals we are currently lauding shows how much more trade we could already do than we actually are. That's where the efforts should be made, in my humble opinion.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> as I don't trust current (or previous) government to implement change in a way I would think positive.


Or future


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> 'Talk of a European army' it's still ongoing.


Notice you avoid the question. Nobody is suggesting an army run by the EU commission. Simply closer cooperation, spending to complement each other's capabilities. The idea is not to be so dependent upon the US. Tell me, what is going to protect the UK's new aircraft carrier? Is it UK ships/subs?

It's another complete misrepresentation of the subject matter by the leave campaign.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Or future


Given current choice, I have to agree.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Notice you avoid the question. Nobody is suggesting an army run by the EU commission. Simply closer cooperation, spending to complement each other's capabilities. The idea is not to be so dependent upon the US. Tell me, what is going to protect the UK's new aircraft carrier? Is it UK ships/subs?
> 
> It's another complete misrepresentation of the subject matter by the leave campaign.


I'm not avoiding it. There was talk and it worried people. Sheesh, here you go again with your accusations. You don't live in the U.K., so maybe you didn't hear the rumblings. I'm talking about people I actually know. Whether they are right or wrong to be concerned, it worried them.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> It certainly wouldn't be a 'free trade' deal, and you only have to look at the Chinese advantages in labour costs to see why. If UK industry was not protected it would quickly go the same way as Monty Python's Norwegian Blue parrot, and would cease to be.
> 
> All these trade visits and a deals we are currently lauding shows how much more trade we could already do than we actually are. That's where the efforts should be made, in my humble opinion.


Fun thing is one of the main reason people complain about the EU taking the lofty "moral" highground is that the EU is protectionist. Here you are (and I am in agreement) that it is necessary.

I agree with the more trade argument. We already take advantage of the 60+ trade arrangements of the EU. The idea that we can replace those in a reasonable timeframe when we have lost them by leaving is not realistic.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Whether they are right or wrong to be concerned, it worried them.


Yet it was a basically a lie. Should people accept being lied to?


----------



## Elles

It's not a lie, it’s a discussion that has been considered for some time. It’s a bad idea, but it was still an idea. Of course it’s moved on from there, with Eu countries including Britain coming together over it, but there is still a European army plan in some respects. In the same way we talk about an allied army, but moreso. It does involve putting more money into defence.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> *Fun thing is one of the main reason people complain about the EU taking the lofty "moral" highground is that the EU is protectionist.* Here you are (and I am in agreement) that it is necessary.
> 
> I agree with the more trade argument. We already take advantage of the 60+ trade arrangements of the EU. The idea that we can replace those in a reasonable timeframe when we have lost them by leaving is not realistic.


And the facts actually show that that particular much voiced soundbite is also wrong. From the BBC fact check ...

*Is the European Union a 'protectionist racket'?*

The conclusion is that the EU does indeed protect some of its producers, especially farmers, from outside competition, although the EU's single market means they are fully exposed to competition from within the EU.

The EU can't claim to be the world's freest trader, but on many measures it's toward the more liberal end of the spectrum.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44291103


----------



## Elles

Protectionism is necessary. Not to protect the major companies as it works now, but to protect the labour force. Putting large tariffs on goods from outside the Eu, leaves even less money to improve pay and conditions for the workforce. Primark were criticised for using child labour and sweatshops to have their gear made. They had to insist on more ethical sources, which are more expensive. Imo that’s how it should work. Not Asian countries doing all the r&d and being able to sell their products cheaply, until the big guns in Europe get involved in the same area and complain that they can’t compete. Instead of encouraging higher pay and better conditions for Chinese workers for example, they practically make it impossible.

Of course in the area I was particularly interested, the Chinese are moving their workforce and factories to Europe instead. To avoid the high tariffs. Backfired a bit, unless that’s what the Eu wanted. Good for the economy I suppose.


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## Elles

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/trump-may-point-eu-tariffs-ifo-says-899083

https://iea.org.uk/the-eus-thousands-of-senseless-tariffs-punish-the-poor/


----------



## Arnie83

I think a problem with the "EU Army" thing, as with so many Brexit topics is that the phrase has frequently been used without proper explanation, leaving the reader / viewer to make up their own mind as to its actual meaning. The Mail would no doubt have us believe that it is going to be vast numbers of troops at the sole command of Jean Claude Juncker, whereas the truth is likely to be far more prosaic. (Also, of course, the UK had already decided not to take part, so it was one of those moot Brexit arguments anyway.)


----------



## Elles

I think the U.K. is now going to take part.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think the U.K. is now going to take part.


Are we? Have you got a source at all?


----------



## Eeyore

Elles said:


> I myself have posted a number of specific ways I feel the Eu are not acting in our best interests, the environment's best interest, or on behalf of animal welfare, but it either wasn't read (I've been asked to repeat it and provide the links again) or brushed off.
> 
> We could still all be wrong. It may work out in the final days, we may not leave, or leave in name only. It may be that are advantageous deals and decisions being taken behind the scenes that we know nothing about. That the government are preparing for a time of no-man's land doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm glad they are preparing for it, they will be the cause of it, if it happens.


I agree partly with you there. EU could do much more, now progress is really slow. But it still is a progress, so better than going back like in US. Also O believe nothing stops Britain to have much better laws, EU sets only the minimum standard and you could do better.



Elles said:


> 'Talk of a European army' it's still ongoing. The Eu would like members to contribute towards an overall European army, be that an extra or instead of. It was one of the 'talks' that concerned people.


That will be dream that won´t come true, or only if Nato collapses like Putin hopes. Even then most countries won´t like to spend any money on EU army, so nothing will come of that unless Putin manages to destroy the US. But not yet, despite Trump there still seems to something not totally mad people in the government. Personally I´d prefer EU army to Nato, as I´d think it´ll be less eager to join wars, but no one really wants to pay for even existing army in most EU countries. Even trying to ask money for a new one will be political suicide.


----------



## Elles

Eu law prevents us from banning live exports. One council tried to and were fined. I'm sure there are other examples of where we cannot ban on ethical, moral or environmental grounds, if it interferes with free trade.

The 'European army' project is now outside of the Eu. A cooperative so to speak. The U.K. is expected to take part.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Eu law prevents us from banning live exports. One council tried to and were fined. I'm sure there are other examples of where we cannot ban on ethical, moral or environmental grounds, if it interferes with free trade.
> 
> The 'European army' project is now outside of the Eu. A cooperative so to speak. The U.K. is expected to take part.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force


Thanks for that - I must have missed it! But if, as it says:

Since 2007, the EU has had four multinational military "battle groups" but the troops have never been deployed​
then I wonder what all the fuss was about.

On the animal export question, presumably it's the travel that you so dislike rather than the crossing of borders (as suggested by 'export'). Do you think the EU rules on transport are insufficient? Or is it that they are not enforced by the individual countries?


----------



## Elles

I did start to type a reply, but it’s too depressing and I don’t want to look for links. Seen enough over the past few days.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I did start to type a reply, but it's too depressing and I don't want to look for links. Seen enough over the past few days.


On the plus side at least we will not miss out on Chinese merchandise...


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Eu law prevents us from banning live exports. One council tried to and were fined. I'm sure there are other examples of where we cannot ban on ethical, moral or environmental grounds, if it interferes with free trade.


When using that topic, as has been mentioned before.. WTO rules prevent us banning live exports unless we can get an exemption. Possible as it's had precendent but not necessarily easy and requires more than simply the governement making a law. Has to defend it in an international adjudication. Eu lost when trying to ban imports of battery cage hen eggs when it was trying to ban battery cages in the EU on "moral" grounds.


----------



## Elles

It’s unlikely the Eu as a body will be able to ban live export, even if its people wanted to, which I doubt.


----------



## Elles

The Eu has pretty much banned battery hens, but a lot of Eu countries, mostly the poorer ones don’t comply. Once we’re out of the Eu we can, if we wish, ban imports of eggs from battery farms.


----------



## Satori

Eeyore said:


> The question was general question, not aimed at asking why people on PF voted the way they did. It is so difficult to find out about the reasons for voting for Brexit, so I wondered is there something that you could read between the lines or something that people don´t just like to talk in public, hence the word dare.


You could always ask. You must know some people who voted for Brexit. After all, the majority did.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The Eu has pretty much banned battery hens, but a lot of Eu countries, mostly the poorer ones don't comply. Once we're out of the Eu we can, if we wish, ban imports of eggs from battery farms.


The UK cannot simply ban imports from battery farms. It's WTO rules which forced the EU to accept them as it would do to the UK. When leaving the EU the UK is still under many trade restrictions and does not have a free hand to do as it likes. It has to follow rules written by unelected bureaucrats where we have no voice. Unlike the EU where we actually were included in electing those holding power (MEP's). Within the EU we also had a voice to influence the direction not only of the UK but across europe. Unfortunately too often that voice was not used for supporting the environment but big business. Good example of that is the UK's prevention of banning neocides (to protect bees). You can also look towards things like pollution levels where the EU is pushing for cleaner air, UK failing to match targets on a regular basis yet insists on building another runway (heathrow) where the local pollution already exceeds EU limits.


----------



## KittenKong

It's not Leave.EU,

It's Lav.EU!:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> It's not Leave.EU,
> 
> It's Lav.EU!:Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 366281


Well it may not provide lorry drivers with all the information they need should there be a second vote, but at least it gives us something to go on!


----------



## Elles

Other countries outside of the Eu have have banned the import of eggs from battery hens. The Eu prevents it, because the eggs are coming from Eu countries who say they are unable to comply with the regulations. The U.K. spent millions on it, poorer countries can’t afford to. The wealthier countries are not happy being undercut by cheap battery farmed eggs, which is why the Eu banned the cages in the first place and will be why they wanted the ban on bleached chicken from America. That is what I’ve read and how I view the supposedly more ethical Eu. Follow the money.

So we can ban eggs from battery hens once we are out of the Eu. We can also ban live exports if we want to. 

Whether this government will want to or not is a separate issue. Hopefully Gove will.

If as you say the WTO is the barrier, a single country has more chance of getting things through on ethical and moral grounds than the Eu as a whole, as many of the EU countries don’t want these bans at all and object to them. The wealthier countries don’t seem to assist. The Eu will spend billions on free rail cards for 18 year olds though, eucalyptus in Portugal and plastic in Spain. Money. The WTO is about money too of course, but it doesn’t pretend to be anything else.

Animal welfare groups promoted remain, because they too don’t trust the British government. If it was a different, more ethical government in power and not one that wanted to bring back fox hunting and kill bees, it would have been interesting to see their stance.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> So we can ban eggs from battery hens once we are out of the Eu. We can also ban live exports if we want to.
> Whether this government will want to or not is a separate issue. Hopefully Gove will.


I think if our governments really wanted to they could have banned them years ago what ever the EU said, but they follow rules to the letter while other EU countries do what ever is best for them we didn't. Our governments forgot rules can be bent.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Other countries outside of the Eu have have banned the import of eggs from battery hens. The Eu prevents it, because the eggs are coming from Eu countries who say they are unable to comply with the regulations. The U.K. spent millions on it, poorer countries can't afford to. The wealthier countries are not happy being undercut by cheap battery farmed eggs, which is why the Eu banned the cages in the first place and will be why they wanted the ban on bleached chicken from America. That is what I've read and how I view the supposedly more ethical Eu. Follow the money.
> 
> So we can ban eggs from battery hens once we are out of the Eu. We can also ban live exports if we want to.
> 
> Whether this government will want to or not is a separate issue. Hopefully Gove will.
> 
> If as you say the WTO is the barrier, a single country has more chance of getting things through on ethical and moral grounds than the Eu as a whole, as many of the EU countries don't want these bans at all and object to them. The wealthier countries don't seem to assist. The Eu will spend billions on free rail cards for 18 year olds though, eucalyptus in Portugal and plastic in Spain. Money. The WTO is about money too of course, but it doesn't pretend to be anything else.
> 
> Animal welfare groups promoted remain, because they too don't trust the British government. If it was a different, more ethical government in power and not one that wanted to bring back fox hunting and kill bees, it would have been interesting to see their stance.


I don't want to harp on about this, but I'm still struggling a bit with a distinction between 'transportation' and 'export'. Unless there's a body of water involved, transportation of animals is the same to them whether they cross a border or not. Would we allow transportation from John O'Groats to Land's End (silly I know but you get my point) yet ban transportation across the Irish / NI border? I'm not educated on the subject at all, but I'm not sure what we're trying to prevent here ...


----------



## Elles

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/take-action/

Live transport for slaughter, so no we wouldn't allow transport from Scotland to an abattoir in lands end. Export ban would be a start.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.ciwf.org.uk/our-campaigns/live-animal-transport/take-action/
> 
> Live transport for slaughter, so no we wouldn't allow transport from Scotland to an abattoir in lands end. Export ban would be a start.


Thank you. Now clearer.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Other countries outside of the Eu have have banned the import of eggs from battery hens. The Eu prevents it, because


The WTO forced the EU to accept it. Just as it does beef with hormones amongst other things.



> If as you say the WTO is the barrier, a single country has more chance of getting things through on ethical and moral grounds than the Eu as a whole, as many of the EU countries don't want these bans at all and object to them. The wealthier countries don't seem to assist. The Eu will spend billions on free rail cards for 18 year olds though, eucalyptus in Portugal and plastic in Spain. Money. The WTO is about money too of course, but it doesn't pretend to be anything else.


Yet the UK government is more prone to business pressure being "small" in comparison. They will not stand up to companies like Apple, Microsoft unlike the EU. Your point is flawed. You say it's simply money when it is not, it's the effect of lobbying which is present everywhere. Yes money plays a part but only part of the story.



> Animal welfare groups promoted remain, because they too don't trust the British government. If it was a different, more ethical government in power and not one that wanted to bring back fox hunting and kill bees, it would have been interesting to see their stance.


So which government really has championed the environment? What are the chances of a future government doing so. The main advantage of brexit at the moment is Gove actually trying to distance himself from brexit and pushing environment. I just hope it's not simply an attempt to grab positive headlines but actually achieves things. The "Lucy's law" changes for example sound great and were headlines. They are unlikely to achieve anything really.


----------



## Arnie83

Much talk in the press and on TV today about May drumming up 'post Brexit' trade in Africa.

Interesting to see the current situation while we are still members of the EU.










EPA & EBA = Duty-free and quota-free access for everything except arms
GSP+ = Duty-free and quota-free access for 66% of products
GSP = Lower EU tariffs on 66% of products

I'm not sure what the UK can offer that is better than what we can offer at the moment.
And I'm not sure what is currently stopping us from increasing trade with Africa such that it becomes an argument for leaving the EU. Something to bear in mind when you hear people doing exactly that.


----------



## Elles

None. If people voted remain, because they don’t agree with the British government at the moment, that’s quite understandable. If they voted remain because they think the Eu is some kind of benign ruler who will save us all from ourselves, they’re probably wrong. 

If we had voted remain, everything would have stayed the same and I would have carried on supporting campaigns and causes I believe in. However we didn’t, so now it’s a case of supporting the same causes and campaigns, but focusing even harder on our own government and Britain, who will no longer be able to use Eu membership as an excuse. Though tbh, I think the Eu will still be an excuse, because we will make a deal (or not leave at all) that means we still have to comply to Eu regs.

People who are putting all of their efforts into trying to change the result and stay in the Eu are probably wasting those efforts. I don’t think there’s any more they can do. I’d rather focus on the changes I want to see, whether we end up staying in or not.

I would doubt many expected Spain to want Gibraltar if Britain left, or the Eu to back them up. That’s one major issue brought about purely by Brexit. The other is the issue of the Irish border. Other than those two, there’s little that wasn’t a concern already, whichever side you came down on and Brexit or no Brexit imo. 

Michael Gove seems to throw himself into whichever role he’s given with great enthusiasm. He reminds me a bit of Chris Packham. 

*runs away and hides*


----------



## Elles

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-africa-seeks-new-start-again/

Apparently current agreements expire in 2020.

There was a fair bit of fake news about the Eu and Africa pre referendum. Some of Africa's problems are down to the West, but it's more complicated than just how the Eu trade there imo.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> The WTO forced the EU to accept it. Just as it does beef with hormones amongst other things.
> 
> Yet the UK government is more prone to business pressure being "small" in comparison.


A number of countries inside the Eu do not want to ban battery cages. So if as you say, the WTO will only make exceptions on ethical grounds with proven history, there's little chance of it. However, the Eu has banned battery cages and the import of battery cages, its members aren't complying, so where has the WTO prevented it?

My point wasn't particularly about a ban or not, but rather about the reasons the Eu banned them. Not on moral or ethical grounds, but from governments whose people had pressured them into it and made battery hen eggs uneconomic. It's not because Juncker loves chickens and wants them to live happy, productive lives, but because the people of some of the wealthier countries do.

I don't have a problem with it, it's how it works, it's the implication that the Eu is kinder and more benign than our own government and more likely to do the right thing on moral/ethical grounds I object to. Not only are they no better, if its members want to ignore it they do. We get fined, these countries that can't afford to replace their cages, would be able to afford it even less if they were fined for it.

Smaller countries than the U.K. have banned imports of eggs from battery farms and banned live export for slaughter.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> None. If people voted remain, because they don't agree with the British government at the moment, that's quite understandable. If they voted remain because they think the Eu is some kind of benign ruler who will save us all from ourselves, they're probably wrong.
> 
> If we had voted remain, everything would have stayed the same and I would have carried on supporting campaigns and causes I believe in. However we didn't, so now it's a case of supporting the same causes and campaigns, but focusing even harder on our own government and Britain, who will no longer be able to use Eu membership as an excuse. Though tbh, I think the Eu will still be an excuse, because we will make a deal (or not leave at all) that means we still have to comply to Eu regs.
> 
> People who are putting all of their efforts into trying to change the result and stay in the Eu are probably wasting those efforts. I don't think there's any more they can do. I'd rather focus on the changes I want to see, whether we end up staying in or not.
> 
> I would doubt many expected Spain to want Gibraltar if Britain left, or the Eu to back them up. That's one major issue brought about purely by Brexit. The other is the issue of the Irish border. Other than those two, there's little that wasn't a concern already, whichever side you came down on and Brexit or no Brexit imo.
> 
> Michael Gove seems to throw himself into whichever role he's given with great enthusiasm. He reminds me a bit of Chris Packham.
> 
> *runs away and hides*


Gibraltar- if anyone bothered to check that was pretty obvious, Spain wanted Gibraltar since Franco was in power. Not before - after Brits free Spain from Napoleon we had very good relationship with Spain.
We already feel it acutely as we buy all food etc... in Spain and the pound crashed. Prices of food from UK always were sky high.
Costs of living went up about 20% and job market shrunk.
Hospital struggles and one of mine needs a serious surgery, postponed already for a year.

Imagine the frontier unpassable for workforce, for supplies and tourism.

We are following the news, all depends really on a deal.


----------



## KittenKong

What a sorry state the UK is in being led by these politicians.

The "Opposition", Jeremy Corbyn:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1883897421694862&id=6622931938
Theresa May:
https://news.sky.com/story/how-brit...eu-referendum-not-the-issue-may-says-11484386


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/how-brit...eu-referendum-not-the-issue-may-says-11484386


Theresa May:

We're not in the business of having a second referendum on Brexit. What we're in the business of doing is delivering Brexit. So actually what somebody would vote for today is not the issue.

The issue is: are we doing what the British people wanted? The answer is yes - this government is delivering it.​
I can see the argument from a Leaver viewpoint*, but surely 'what somebody would vote for today' represents the current Will of the People, doesn't it? Why, when it isn't too late, because we are not irrevocably set on the path to leaving, let alone to a particular manifestation of leaving, is that deemed subservient to the historic Will of the People?

And - the same old point again, sorry - since the original vote was a binary one with no firm details attached and myriad contradictory ones being mooted by various Leave proponents, how can she possibly claim to be 'doing what the British people wanted'? The only way to find out is to present them with the facts of what she is proposing, and allow them to pass judgement.

*Actually, looking at it dispassionately, I'm not sure that I can.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar- if anyone bothered to check that was pretty obvious, Spain wanted Gibraltar since Franco was in power. Not before - after Brits free Spain from Napoleon we had very good relationship with Spain.
> We already feel it acutely as we buy all food etc... in Spain and the pound crashed. Prices of food from UK always were sky high.
> Costs of living went up about 20% and job market shrunk.
> Hospital struggles and one of mine needs a serious surgery, postponed already for a year.
> 
> Imagine the frontier unpassable for workforce, for supplies and tourism.
> 
> We are following the news, all depends really on a deal.


I really feel for you, you seem to have been forgotten, I can't remember the last time I heard Gibraltar mentioned by our government in any of the talks.

I really wish we could turn back the clocks to the vote and this time have a government who was prepared to negotiate rather than one who has sat on it's hands just hoping things will just work out on there own. It's would be funny if so many peoples lives weren't been wreaked the way the Be-exit talks are been handled. Lets face it we have become a joke.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I really feel for you, you seem to have been forgotten, I can't remember the last time I heard Gibraltar mentioned by our government in any of the talks.
> 
> I really wish we could turn back the clocks to the vote and this time have a government who was prepared to negotiate rather than one who has sat on it's hands just hoping things will just work out on there own. It's would be funny if so many peoples lives weren't been wreaked the way the Be-exit talks are been handled. Lets face it we have become a joke.


I have impression that those not directly affected by Brexit just don't care at all about those who will, their families, their animals.

When people struggle guess what happens to their pets?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I have impression that those not directly affected by Brexit just don't care at all about those who will, their families, their animals.
> 
> When people struggle guess what happens to their pets?


I think it's the wrong impression. Many voted Brexit in the hope of a better life for everyone. People don't take out funeral cover for their own benefit and leave money in their wills to the cats protection and wwf to improve their own lives.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think it's the wrong impression. *Many voted Brexit in the hope of a better life for everyone. * People don't take out funeral cover for their own benefit and leave money in their wills to the cats protection and wwf to improve their own lives.


Without wishing to start a fight (especially with you ) I really doubt that, though of course it depends on your definition of 'many'. The idea that the country would be better off financially does not seem to have featured significantly in the post-referendum polls. Most voters I think voted according to their personal views and desires.

Though if there was a significant proportion who thought the country would be financially better off, at least they should be thinking differently by the time the mooted 'People's Vote' is held.


----------



## Elles

And definition of ‘better life’. 

Though I agree, most I speak to thought and still think that economically and financially we will be better off outside the Eu once we’ve paid our bills and dues and extricated ourselves. (Not going to happen in my personal view ofc.)

But better life isn’t always money too. Though it helps. I’ve always said, if I have to be unhappy, I’d rather be rich and unhappy than poor and unhappy.


----------



## noushka05

Colliebarmy said:


> wasnt there a fuss about money spent on the Brexit vote?
> 
> So how about this to defeat democracy?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45235655


 Vote leave cheated. If you genuinely believed in democracy you'd want a peoples vote too.


----------



## KittenKong

Personally I would have added Corbyn to the bottom....









Of course, not everyone may like those at the top. The point is, they were competent politicians. Even Thatcher was competent before the Poll Tax whether people agreed with her or not.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Personally I would have added Corbyn to the bottom....
> View attachment 366418


It is called an upgrade, albeit from piss poor to just poor, but an upgrade nevertheless.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Blair???? Corbyn who quite openly sabotaged Remain campaign definitely fits into the same cauldron with the BoJo and Reece Mogg.

If Corbyn cared about jobs lost and austerity Brexit will bring he would actually put equal effort to Remain campaign as to his leadership.


----------



## Elles

Sensible, professional and competent. Lol. Obama maybe.


----------



## kimthecat

Pffft! Blair and that back stabber wotsisname Ed :Vomit For heavens sake Labour , get a decent leader . Its costing you GEs.


----------



## Arnie83

I know this will make me sound like a old school ma'am, but I can't help thinking that discussion of what politicians we all think are good, bad, indifferent or the devil incarnate will make all other Brexit threads look like a mutual appreciation society!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I know this will make me sound like a old school ma'am, but I can't help thinking that discussion of what politicians we all think are good, bad, indifferent or the devil incarnate will make all other Brexit threads look like a mutual appreciation society!


:Hilarious Ive picked out Blair and Ed as the worst but that doesnt mean to say I like the others .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Ive picked out Blair and Ed as the worst but that doesnt mean to say I like the others .


We never had given Es the chance, he was just to ridiculous.

At least he appeared to be weird.... he might be better close up but who gets the chance to know them close up?

Blair started fair enough, but then we had WoMD and a war... along our besties... war which EU quite wisely side steppped. 
But if TM was to be replaced by the likes of BJ or RM?
With Corbyn as alternative....
Then I might as well have Gareth Southgate for PM...

Or Bob Geldof. Even better.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Still no


----------



## Happy Paws2

Theresa May has announced plans to boost Britain's investment in Africa after Brexit, during her first trip to the continent as prime minister.

In a speech in Cape Town, she pledged *£4bn* in support for African economies, to create jobs for young people.

If we are throwing money around like that to get a deal with one country how much more are we going to throw around to other counties it hope of a few crumbs, it would have been cheaper to stay in the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Theresa May has announced plans to boost Britain's investment in Africa after Brexit, during her first trip to the continent as prime minister.
> 
> In a speech in Cape Town, she pledged *£4bn* in support for African economies, to create jobs for young people.
> 
> If we are throwing money around like that to get a deal with one country how much more are we going to throw around to other counties it hope of a few crumbs, it would have been cheaper to stay in the EU.


Macron was in Africa recently and Merkel is there today (I think), both trying to drum up trade, apparently unhindered by their EU membership. And as my post a few days back showed, the EU already has zero tariff and quota terms with most African countries, so if we get a trade deal then the only influence of Brexit will have been to make it more necessary rather than any more possible. Plus, as you say, it will cost us an extra £4bn.

As ever though, if anyone can explain why Brexit will help with this sort of deal, please do so.


----------



## Elles

Yes, it does seem that the Eu are making more effort in Africa since we left. The Africans are quite sceptical, given previous history apparently. I’ll have to have another look for the interviews I’ve read about it. Not that it matters. If our leaving the Eu, improves the Eu and Africa, it’s just another benefit of Brexit. And no, I’m not kidding, I said the same thing way back. It’s not just about the British, silver linings and all that.


----------



## kimthecat

I'd say we are a generous country , we are on the list for giving the most aid . 
If we get something back for helping poorer Africans then that's a bonus. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35226478


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Theresa May has announced plans to boost Britain's investment in Africa after Brexit, during her first trip to the continent as prime minister.
> 
> In a speech in Cape Town, she pledged *£4bn* in support for African economies, to create jobs for young people.
> 
> If we are throwing money around like that to get a deal with one country how much more are we going to throw around to other counties it hope of a few crumbs, it would have been cheaper to stay in the EU.


Indeed, especially with arrangements already in place as a member of the EU.

Not being able to conquer the rest of Europe May is looking towards "Inferior" nations Britain once dominated and throws £4bn at them. Some of these regimes are well dodgy. Homosexuality remains illegal in some of them.

It would have been nice had May commented on such appalling human rights issues, then she doesn't believe in them herself.

Nor would she comment on the campaign to have Nelson Mandela released the Conservatives at the time referred to as a terrorist.


----------



## Eeyore

Arnie83 said:


> Macron was in Africa recently and Merkel is there today (I think), both trying to drum up trade, apparently unhindered by their EU membership. And as my post a few days back showed, the EU already has zero tariff and quota terms with most African countries, so if we get a trade deal then the only influence of Brexit will have been to make it more necessary rather than any more possible. Plus, as you say, it will cost us an extra £4bn.
> 
> As ever though, if anyone can explain why Brexit will help with this sort of deal, please do so.


Did you know that China is way ahead investing in Africa? It owns millions of acres of land, has set up business, built roads etc. And they don´t have to worry at all about democracy, corruption, pollution, workers rights etc. while they conduct business in Africa. No wonder they are more welcome than EU. It´ll be interesting to see how Britain will compete with China in Africa. Will Britain have same "values" as China or still think that with the aid we´d need to support democracy etc. That will be the question politicians will ask in Africa. What do you think Britain should answer? Britain first, no matter what (like China and US) or let´s at least try to something good with the money.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Theresa May has announced plans to boost Britain's investment in Africa after Brexit, during her first trip to the continent as prime minister.
> 
> In a speech in Cape Town, she pledged *£4bn* in support for African economies, to create jobs for young people.
> 
> If we are throwing money around like that to get a deal with one country how much more are we going to throw around to other counties it hope of a few crumbs, it would have been cheaper to stay in the EU.


Oh, but we now can offer the jobs left by EU people to South Africa people !!! I always admired Zulú warriors.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...-no-deal-passport-customs-uk-eu-a8510621.html


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, but we now can offer the jobs left by EU people to South Africa people !!! I always admired Zulú warriors.


You're a bit behind the times aren't you?

There are already some 230 000 South Africans living in the UK of which 10 000 are nurses. The UK has been recruiting South Africa nurses for at least the past 20 years, which has created a shortage of nursing staff in SA hospitals.

Those figures don't include the figures for dual nationals, South Africans who also hold British passports. My ex DIL, my grandson, her mother, three brothers and their families all live in either the UK or France as do my friend's two children and their families.

As for Zulu warriors, unfortunately they're rather scarce these days but I'm sure the SA government wouldn't begrudge the UK a thousand or ten tsotsi!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> You're a bit behind the times aren't you?
> 
> There are already some 230 000 South Africans living in the UK of which 10 000 are nurses. The UK has been recruiting South Africa nurses for at least the past 20 years, which has created a shortage of nursing staff in SA hospitals.
> 
> Those figures don't include the figures for dual nationals, South Africans who also hold British passports. My ex DIL, my grandson, her mother, three brothers and their families all live in either the UK or France as do my friend's two children and their families.
> 
> As for Zulu warriors, unfortunately they're rather scarce these days but I'm sure the SA government wouldn't begrudge the UK a thousand or ten tsotsi!


I never said they are not there already?

Ok, if they are short on Zulu ... pity but I have nothing at all against tsotsi.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I never said they are not there already?
> 
> Ok, if they are short on Zulu ... pity but I have nothing at all against tsotsi.


*Definition of 'tsotsi'*
noun plural -tsis
a Black street thug or gang member
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers
Word origin of 'tsotsi'
C20: perhaps from Nguni tsotsa to dress flashily


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You're a bit behind the times aren't you?
> 
> There are already some 230 000 South Africans living in the UK of which 10 000 are nurses. The UK has been recruiting South Africa nurses for at least the past 20 years, which has created *a shortage of nursing staff in SA hospitals*.
> 
> Those figures don't include the figures for dual nationals, South Africans who also hold British passports. My ex DIL, my grandson, her mother, three brothers and their families all live in either the UK or France as do my friend's two children and their families.
> 
> As for Zulu warriors, unfortunately they're rather scarce these days but I'm sure the SA government wouldn't begrudge the UK a thousand or ten tsotsi!


Do you think Brexit might exacerbate that as the removal of freedom of movement favours non-EU workers?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think Brexit might exacerbate that as the removal of freedom of movement favours non-EU workers?


That depends on whether the British government make an exception for health workers, or invest more in training. As the nhs and government could have invested more in training either way, I expect them to except health workers from their immigration controls, but I also think that health workers will probably not want to come here because of Brexit, which may force their hand in the end.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, but we now can offer the jobs left by EU people to South Africa people !!! I always admired* Zulú warriors*.


They can always help with the fruits picking, I just see them picking strawberry's


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> They can always help with the fruits picking, I just see them picking strawberry's


Maybe they can sort out Sport Direct?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I never said they are not there already?
> 
> Ok, if they are short on Zulu ... pity but I have nothing at all against tsotsi.


You're probably thinking of Tutsi.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That depends on whether the British government make an exception for health workers, or invest more in training. As the nhs and government could have invested more in training either way, I expect them to except health workers from their immigration controls, but I also think that health workers will probably not want to come here because of Brexit, which may force their hand in the end.


Agreed, and given that we are unlikely to be flush with extra money to train new ones here post-Brexit, I guess the favoured option will be continued migration.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Agreed, and given that we are unlikely to be flush with extra money to train new ones here post-Brexit, I guess the favoured option will be continued migration.


You might find these two articles interesting to read. The first is about the state of health care in SA

https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/citypress/20180225/282179356571477

The second is a SA Consultancy for recruiting nurses for the UK

https://bic-immigration.com/registered-nurses/

Don't forget that South African Healthcare workers are also recruited by countries like Australia, NZ, the US and Canada which might be more attractive than the UK after Brexit! None of which of course helps to alleviate the staff shortages in the SA health system!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You might find these two articles interesting to read. The first is about the state of health care in SA
> 
> https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/citypress/20180225/282179356571477
> 
> The second is a SA Consultancy for recruiting nurses for the UK
> 
> https://bic-immigration.com/registered-nurses/
> 
> Don't forget that South African Healthcare workers are also recruited by countries like Australia, NZ, the US and Canada which might be more attractive than the UK after Brexit! None of which of course helps to alleviate the staff shortages in the SA health system!


Thank you. Interesting, and worrying.

It's a problem that certainly didn't need addressing by charging our own student nurses £9k a year to qualify, that's for sure.

The trouble is, the best answer is probably multi-national, and that's not going to happen.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You're probably thinking of Tutsi.


Possibly, Mm promised tsotsi , she knows more about SA than I do... 
I can probably tell Zulu from Polish strawberry picker and that is that...


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Possibly, Mm promised tsotsi , she knows more about SA than I do...
> I can probably tell Zulu from Polish strawberry picker and that is that...


Just so you'll know the difference in future when you come across one or the other!

A Zulu warrior looks like this .......










And a Polish strawberry picker like this ......


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, but we now can offer the jobs left by EU people to South Africa people !!! I always admired Zulú warriors.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Hey, I fully understand what austerity is doing - I work for a local authority and can see it first hand. But I'm pretty sure Brexit isn't the cause - a change in Government would change austerity measures (and don't forget I'm a bit of a capitalist, but I disagree with what the tories are doing with regards austerity and outsourcing).
> 
> But I do think the first inklings of push back against outsourcing and joint ventures are starting to happen on the ground. We have a joint venture that I've been involved with and we've bought £6m worth of services back in house this year. Don't get me wrong, it cost us short term (which is why local authorities should never ever be involved in writing contracts) but long term it's better for the people we are providing the services for and ultimately will actually cost less.
> 
> Please don't mention George :Vomit or Lush if you are talking about that rank soap shop :Vomit. I physically can't breathe if I get anywhere near those places :Wacky


No brexit isnt the reason for the austerity we've had. Osborne used austerity as an excuse to savagely cut public spending saying it would reduce our debt (public debt ROSE!). When we leave the EU this austerity will seem like a walk in the park compared to what we face. We can kiss goodbye to our NHS - forever. And the tories will simply say its not our fault - brexit was the will of the people Or they'll blame the EU. The tories have to have a scapegoat & millions will believe them because their mates in the media will spin the tory narrative. .

Neoliberalism is an extreme & destructive form of capitalism. I know you're not too keen on George (monbiot not osborne lol), but if you read just one of his articles - make it this one -

*Neoliberalism - the ideology at the root of all our problems*

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

I chose lush because of their ethics not because of their soap

.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Possibly, Mm promised tsotsi , she knows more about SA than I do...
> I can probably tell Zulu from Polish strawberry picker and that is that...


It looks like mm was promising thugs and you probably should have a problem with them. Tutsi were one of the peoples featured in Hotel Rwanda, a film based on a true story of genocide and which I would advise you not to watch unless you want to feel totally depressed, saddened, angry and dismayed. Heartbreaking. I thought you meant them as the name is similar and we should probably not have a problem with them. At the time we should most certainly have helped them and we didn't.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> It looks like mm was promising thugs and you probably should have a problem with them. Tutsi were one of the peoples featured in Hotel Rwanda, a film based on a true story of genocide and which I would advise you not to watch unless you want to feel totally depressed, saddened, angry and dismayed. Heartbreaking. I thought you meant them as the name is similar and we should probably not have a problem with them. At the time we should most certainly have helped them and we didn't.


I was pulling @cheekyscrip's leg thinking she'd know what tsotsi are.

I saw the film and it was horrifying the way the rest of the world turned their back on what was happening.

I knew a young Rwandan man who was at university in France when the genocide happened. He told me how worried he was for his parent's safety because his father was a Hutu and his mother a Tutsi which was frowned on and he was terrified they might be killed as a result

For anyone interested ....

https://www.history.com/topics/rwandan-genocide


----------



## noushka05

A long & important thread, tweeted by Deborah Meaden, being widely shared. Its in response to a vote leave Rees Mogg fan (called Adam! lol ).

*PART 1*

*Adam, let me present you with some comparative economics, and then you tell me whether ANY Tory (and I was one) has your interests at heart. I'm going to compare the UK with our partners in Europe. Firstly, we WERE the fifth largest world economy. Remember that.

Despite that, we have one of the highest levels of poverty in Europe.*










*
Wealth is the LEAST equally distributed. By a very long way*



















*Where does all of that wealth go? Well, the UK has the highest property prices and rents in Europe. The Tories would love you to believe it's due to immigration, but the truth is that we are strictly average in the number of immigrants per head, and those states cope*.



















*The truth is rather nastier. The Tories strongly represent a class of income-earners called rent-seekers. Adam Smith, one of the fathers of modern economics and free markets, said...*










*
Rent seekers like income that comes from owning property, not doing work, and includes finance. As soon as rent-seekers have dominance they have the perverse incentive to limit the supply of housing to drive up rents and house prices.*










*This diverts capital from growth-creating production businesses, because people can earn more from owning property. This leads to underinvestment in R&D and automation. We are below average in industrial robots per head, for example. This leads to the UK falling behind.*
*


















We have declining productivity compared to the rest of the G7 - the northern Europeans could take Friday off and still produce more per week than a brit, the rest of the world (particularly Asia) is catching up fast, and this leads to the lowest wage growth in Europe



















*


----------



## noushka05

*PART 2

We also have the worst pensions. So it doesn't look like the EU is the source of the UK's problems, does it - when every other EU nation is better off? Could it be our own government that is to blame, of which JRM is one of the most self-interested?*
*










Adam Smith showed, in his book "The Wealth of Nations", that all wealth is created by production, by companies and people like Deborah risking their money to invest in them.










In a normal country there can't be more rents than there are production profits and workers wages to pay them. However, we are not a normal country. We invented the offshore tax haven and trust fund system, a product of anglo-saxon law.










The City of London became what it is from managing wealth, not creating it. It manages wealth on behalf of companies and individuals around the world. Mostly legally, because of our EU anti-bribery and anti-money-laundering laws.










However there is a link between the City and the seamier side of these offshore trusts that is exposed in the documentary "The Spider's Web", http://spiderswebfilm.com, which is available on Amazon, free on Prime. And it links all of the pieces of Brexit together very nicely.

Offshore tax havens now look after around $50Tn in assets in secret trusts. Fifty thousand billions. Now if the City earned just 1% for managing that money that would be $500Bn. Easy money, no need to worry about workers










This offshore system attracts tax avoiders, money launderers and despots (did you know that Africa owes 200bn but African despots have almost a trillion in offshore funds while their people starve? If you want to reduce immigration, give the African people their money back).

So that is the link between all of the key players in Brexit. They all benefit from offshore secrecy. Farage, Arron Banks, the ERG group of MPs, Putin and his oligarchs, US billionaires, UK media moguls. The British public has been fooled by some extremely rich, very toxic people.

Now those people have persuaded you that we need to build a commerce wall around the UK to keep out those nasty EU types with their regulations, despite it being very easy to prove that this is an EXTREMELY bad idea.

Libertarianism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of free markets. The ideal free market is not 'free of regulation'. It's a market which perfectly balances supply and demand based solely on the self-interest of its participants, GIVEN that certain assumptions hold.

So please, recognise that these old Etonians are NOT acting in your interests, the Tories are NOT the party of business and fiscal probity, and the UK is being cut adrift without a rudder to make a few rich ex-pat and foreign right-wingers even richer, at YOUR expense*


----------



## noushka05

Brexit really has screwed over not only future generations but our living planet. We were warned.
*

UK's green watchdog will be powerless over climate change post*-*Brexit*

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ge-post-brexit?CMP=twt_a-environment_b-gdneco


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit did. It will benefit not only our oligarchs but those whose money will be let in.

Russia, China will have free run. You dear people will have no hate EU courts to complain to.

NHS will shrink up and die.

As to productivity? Oh, that will have to grow.

At the moment the mere perspective of Brexit crushed the pound and stunted any economic growth.

Brexit absolutely played to hand of the wealthy, even playing against pound brought them quick fortune.

That is why I least of all can forgive Corbyn, because in sabotaging and abandonment of Remain he actually supported all that he stood against all his life. He is a traitor.
He is supported by those who will be hurt by Brexit even not aware of it.


Reece Mogg, BoJo , May are just opportunists. They want the power for them and the wealth for their backers.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit did. It will benefit not only our oligarchs but those whose money will be let in.
> 
> Russia, China will have free run. You dear people will have no hate EU courts to complain to.
> 
> NHS will shrink up and die.
> 
> As to productivity? Oh, that will have to grow.
> 
> At the moment the mere perspective of Brexit crushed the pound and stunted any economic growth.
> 
> Brexit absolutely played to hand of the wealthy, even playing against pound brought them quick fortune.
> 
> That is why I least of all can forgive Corbyn, because in sabotaging and abandonment of Remain he actually supported all that he stood against all his life. He is a traitor.
> He is supported by those who will be hurt by Brexit even not aware of it.
> 
> Reece Mogg, BoJo , May are just opportunists. They want the power for them and the wealth for their backers.


The pressure is heating up Cheeky - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

*Why Labour must lead calls for a people's vote on Brexit*








David Lammy
The party has a duty to millions of people to mobilise opposition to the government's ruinous course of action


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> The pressure is heating up Cheeky - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
> 
> *Why Labour must lead calls for a people's vote on Brexit*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Lammy
> The party has a duty to millions of people to mobilise opposition to the government's ruinous course of action


Absolutely.

I don't understand why people may think that it is ok to ruin the economy and then expect decent health care. Or education, or anything done for environment?

If economy shrinks there's no money!!!
We had good growth, now we have not.

Even with not contributing to EU we have less and less to come.

It will hit workers, it will hit middle class.

People made decisions for non economic reasons, but it does mean that all infrastructure will suffer.

William the be still happy if they cannot get to GP?

Labour is seen as really uncertain on the Brexit issue.
Corbyn whipped his party to have Article 50 pushed through?

No consistency at all. How to trust a party of leader does one thing, members the other and Unions push for Brexit?

I have frankly no idea what is going on there. This is why Labour may never win because it is a one big muddle there and definitely I cannot trust Corbyn.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> You're a bit behind the times aren't you?
> 
> There are already some 230 000 South Africans living in the UK of which 10 000 are nurses. The UK has been recruiting South Africa nurses for at least the past 20 years, which has created a shortage of nursing staff in SA hospitals.
> 
> Those figures don't include the figures for dual nationals, South Africans who also hold British passports. My ex DIL, my grandson, her mother, three brothers and their families all live in either the UK or France as do my friend's two children and their families.
> 
> As for Zulu warriors, unfortunately they're rather scarce these days but I'm sure the SA government wouldn't begrudge the UK a thousand or ten tsotsi!


 I'd just like to add this link to your information to inform some who voted to Remain that there are white people in SA . Black or white , we are members of the Commonwealth .
http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/race-and-ethnicity-south-africa


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## KittenKong

Well said.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I'd just like to add this link to your information to inform some who voted to Remain that there are white people in SA . Black or white , we are members of the Commonwealth .
> http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/race-and-ethnicity-south-africa


I'm probably being thick, but I'm not sure what you're getting at there. What has the Commonwealth got to do with Brexit?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well said.
> View attachment 366776


May thinks it would be a gross betrayal of democracy (= government by the People) to ask the People if the Tories' interpretation of 'Leave' is what they, the People, actually want?

On what planet does that make any sense at all?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> May thinks it would be a gross betrayal of democracy (= government by the People) to ask the People if the Tories' interpretation of 'Leave' is what they, the People, actually want?
> 
> On what planet does that make any sense at all?


Same planet where the leader Labour whips his party members to stand arm in arm in handing the power to moneyed classes?
Where the country voted to be poorer and ruin their economy to have more money for NHS?

I struggle to make sense of it.

In the name of freedom they want to restrict the ability to travel freely? Or trade with no customs?


----------



## KittenKong

Not often I would agree with David Davies but....








From The Independent.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Not often I would agree with David Davies but....
> View attachment 366787
> 
> From The Independent.


Because all deals and no deal will be worse than staying in EU?
That was the point of Remain!!!!


----------



## noushka05

*Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor 5h5 hours ago
Jessica Simor QC Retweeted The Telegraph

PM says the EU27 MUST accept Chequers (n.b. it's already been rejected).
PM says British people will therefore have to cope with the appalling consequences of no deal.

PM says this is democracy.

This is autocracy. #peoplesvote


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor 5h5 hours ago
> Jessica Simor QC Retweeted The Telegraph
> 
> PM says the EU27 MUST accept Chequers (n.b. it's already been rejected).
> PM says British people will therefore have to cope with the appalling consequences of no deal.
> 
> PM says this is democracy.
> 
> This is autocracy. #peoplesvote


Dear oh dear. The strong and stable one is delusional to believe she has a hold over the rest of Europe.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Dear oh dear. The strong and stable one is delusional to believe she has a hold over the rest of Europe.
> 
> View attachment 366798


How embarrassing, the tories are dragging us into the gutter. And this sense of English superiority is going to be our downfall.


----------



## Arnie83

If David Davis says that the Chequers deal is "worse than staying in", then at least he clearly accepts that we will indeed have Left.

And the vote was, simply that - to Leave - so he should respect it.

Anyone trying to point out that Leaving is "worse than staying in" - which, economically, it clearly is, however we do it - has been told to pipe down and respect the Will of the People, who apparently voted knowing exactly what they were doing. It's a bit rich for Davis not only to reject a deal that he, personally doesn't like, but also to refuse to ask the People if they want it.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I'm probably being thick, but I'm not sure what you're getting at there. What has the Commonwealth got to do with Brexit?


It follows on from Mays African visit and then cheekyscrips post
<Oh, but we now can offer the jobs left by EU people to South Africa people !!! I always admired Zulú warriors. > and the replies to that comment .

If she does a deal with Egypt then we can all walk like Egyptians


----------



## Goblin

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2002-11-26.201.7



> Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge.
> 
> We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.


Who would guess the author was David Davis.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> If David Davis says that the Chequers deal is "worse than staying in", then at least he clearly accepts that we will indeed have Left.
> And the vote was, simply that - to Leave - so he should respect it.
> Anyone trying to point out that Leaving is "worse than staying in" - which, economically, it clearly is, however we do it - has been told to pipe down and *respect the Will of the People, who apparently voted knowing exactly what they were doing.* It's a bit rich for Davis not only to reject a deal that he, personally doesn't like, but also to refuse to ask the People if they want it.


If only they did, I'm not sure anyone really knew what leaving would mean, as we were told very little about the 
consequences, at least staying in we knew where we where and had some control of what the EU was doing. Now we are running round like headless chickens trying to get a deal.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I voted for all of the above
> 
> Deja moo


As someone who has always come across as highly supportive of the farming industry, I'm really surprised to hear you say you still want us to leave the customs union & single market given we now know the industry depends on frictionless trade with the EU.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I'm not avoiding it. There was talk and it worried people. Sheesh, here you go again with your accusations. You don't live in the U.K., so maybe you didn't hear the rumblings. I'm talking about people I actually know. Whether they are right or wrong to be concerned, it worried them.


Just going back through some of the posts including ones I missed. It's great isn't it Elles how you throw accusations of me throwing them. Not living in the UK has no relevance. Grumbling of course you hear grumblings. They were told lies and facts were distorted by the leave campaign. Let's make it really simple. Is there going to be an army controlled by the EU commission? If not you are not having an "EU army" simply a group of countries cooperating, similar to NATO without America (possibly the UK as well). Closer cooperation would mean things like an aircraft carrier could be protected by another nations warships for example. You know like the UK has a carrier but not the necessary ships to protect it.

That is one of the fundamental problems with brexit. People did not understand the issues and were lied to. Supporters of neither side should condone lies told by the politicians and those campaigning for them.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Just going back through some of the posts including ones I missed. It's great isn't it Elles how you throw accusations of me throwing them. Not living in the UK has no relevance. Grumbling of course you hear grumblings. They were told lies and facts were distorted by the leave campaign. Let's make it really simple. Is there going to be an army controlled by the EU commission? If not you are not having an "EU army" simply a group of countries cooperating, similar to NATO without America (possibly the UK as well). Closer cooperation would mean things like an aircraft carrier could be protected by another nations warships for example. You know like the UK has a carrier but not the necessary ships to protect it.
> 
> That is one of the fundamental problems with brexit. People did not understand the issues and were lied to. Supporters of neither side should condone lies told by the politicians and those campaigning for them.


People were told that there was going to be an Eu army, or at least the powers at the Eu wanted there to be. It's now changed to a coop outside the Eu. Possibly because Britain are leaving?

A lot of things have changed, not least because our government made it so. We also didn't fall into a black pit the day after the vote, which remain told us would happen.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> People were told that there was going to be an Eu army, or at least the powers at the Eu wanted there to be.


Again, you skirt answering the actual question. There was never any talk about the EU commission controlling an army. It was a lie, simple as that. No EU country would give it's own control of troops away. Can you tell me any country within or outside the EU who would? That's ignoring any possible veto the UK would have regardless. You keep simply stating people were told.. I agree. The very fact that you are stating it influenced the vote when people shows the problem with people not being accurately informed. As for falling into black pit, you are correct.. we were going to leave immediately. I cannot remember.. did they mention the need for stockpiling "just in case"?


----------



## Elles

Remain said the day after we vote leave it will be disastrous. It wasn’t. It seems to me, little is ever as bad as they say it will be, nor as good. Even without the thought of an Eu army, or turkey joining, people wanted to leave. The Eu may have wanted an Eu army and turkey may have wanted to join the Eu. That neither got their wish, doesn’t make it a lie.


----------



## Elles

“I cannot remember ... did they mention the need for stockpiling “just in case”?”


----------



## Magyarmum

Goblin said:


> Again, you skirt answering the actual question. There was never any talk about the EU commission controlling an army. It was a lie, simple as that. No EU country would give it's own control of troops away. Can you tell me any country within or outside the EU who would? That's ignoring any possible veto the UK would have regardless. You keep simply stating people were told.. I agree. The very fact that you are stating it influenced the vote when people shows the problem with people not being accurately informed. As for falling into black pit, you are correct.. we were going to leave immediately. I cannot remember.. did they mention the need for stockpiling "just in case"?


What then is the EU Battlegroup which is under the direct control of the European Council?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Battlegroup


----------



## stockwellcat.

My participation to this thread is limited and will remain so.

Some more on the EU army for what it's worth:
https://www.eurocorps.org/readiness/european-battle-group/

Since some on here only like to read stuff that is from the EU itself well here then a link from europa.eu: https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/33557/eu-battlegroups_en

The Battle Group has been in existance since 2007. On the 25th June 2018 9 European countries including the UK, France, Germany, Brussels, The Netherlands etc signed off on setting up a European military force or better known as a joint military intervention force for rapid deployment in times of crisis (an EU army).
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force

So is it a pipe dream I ask you as it doesn't look like it?


----------



## Magyarmum

@stockwellcat You might also like to read this article.

https://uk.ambafrance.org/Bilateral-cooperation


----------



## Goblin

Oh dear.. the information provided shows it's a cooperation of nations under control of a NATION STATE, not the EU itself. No different to any coalition. Really people.

So once again @stockwellcat. @Magyarmum please tell me which country gives it's sovereign control of any troops to the EU?

Edit: oh wait, to be labelled something like "EU peacekeeping force" they have to get "EU approval". Wow, isn't that a shock. Oh wait.. it includes Turkey which isn't even in the EU, will not likely be and certainly not anytime soon.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh dear.. the information provided shows it's a cooperation of nations under control of a NATION STATE, not the EU itself. No different to any coalition. Really people.
> 
> So once again @stockwellcat. @Magyarmum please tell me which country gives it's sovereign control of any troops to the EU?
> 
> Edit: oh wait, to be labelled something like "EU peacekeeping force" they have to get "EU approval". Wow, isn't that a shock.


The EU Battle Group does exist. It is a 15,000 strong group of soldiers and armed forces that can be deployed from a unnanamous vote from the EU Parliament. So if this isn't an army what is it then as it sure does sound like one and they can only be deployed if all EU countries agree.

They go under the banner and are called the EU Battlegroup here is their insignia:









The EU Battlegroup was formed in 2007 and as of yet has never been deployed into action.

Here is one of their old insignias the one above is the new one:

















But as I have learnt with you is to now leave you to it. As I said my time on this thread is of a limited nature.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 366895
> 
> The EU Battle Group does exist. It is a 15,000 strong group of soldiers and armed forces that can be deployed from a unnanamous vote from the EU Parliament.


ooh, meaningless pretty pictures. Tell me does the UN have an army as I see emblems for it, things like helmets on peacekeeping forces, even a specific colour scheme for armor. There is no such thing as a NATO army is there. Answer the question asked about sovereignty... no didn't think you would.



> So if this isn't an army what is it then as it sure does sound like one and they can only be deployed if all EU countries agree.


Really every nation in the EU has to agree.. So EU commission has nothing to do with it. Every coalition member has to agree before they use the label "EU" and then, any mission is led by a nation state, not the EU. So again, you prove it's a coalition.


----------



## Magyarmum

*An EU Battlegroup (EU BG) is a military unit adhering to the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) of the European Union (EU). ... The forces are under the direct control of the Council of the European Union.
*
I'm rather confused. Can you please explain which "Nation State" the Council of the European Union represents?

Russia, USA or China maybe because by your reckoning it can't be one of its 28 members?

And like @stockwellcat I'm now bowing out as I refuse to be subjected to your sarcasm and ridicule any longer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> An EU Battlegroup (EU BG) is a military unit adhering to the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) of the European Union (EU). ... The forces are under the direct control of the Council of the European Union.


Yet it is not under the direct control to othe Council is it. The control is by a member nation state when deployed, the deployment is only approved by the unaminous decision of all members. That certainly isn't "direct control" is it, simply having the need to approve any deployment which is labelled as "EU". Same questions about the UN applies. They (The UN) have to approve any "UN" force before it's deployed. Is there a UN army? You also avoid answering the simple question repeated several times. Which country has given up their sovereignty of any troops?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...cines-contracts-as-eu-body-anticipates-brexit


----------



## Arnie83

I'm now struggling to work out what the EU army / force / battle group, formed in 2007 has to do with Brexit going forwards. And perching my horn-rimmed spectacles on the end of my nose in best school-ma'am pose, I would suggest there are more important topics looking forwards, concentration on which will keep the thread open.

Not least is Boris's hatchet job in today's Telegraph on the official Government plan, as agreed at Chequers.

As ever, Boris's main concern is getting into No.10 as Prime Minister, and he first has to take down May. There isn't time to do both of those things and negotiate a new agreement with the EU and get it ratified before the end of March next year, so what he is actually pushing us towards is a no-deal Brexit.

If you have any money, it might be a good time to move it into one of Rees-Mogg's overseas funds.

Link to BBC report, since the Telegraph is pay-walled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45392105


----------



## Arnie83

This I also find interesting ...


*New poll finds a majority of decided voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland would back breaking up the United Kingdom if Brexit goes ahead.*
*52% of voters in Northern Ireland and 48% of voters in Scotland say they would back independence from the UK after Brexit.*

Of course it is a poll, so should be taken as an indication only, but it's informative. I've often wondered how the leading pro-Brexit brigade can advocate the UK taking back control as a sovereign nation, and in the next breath rebuke the SNP for daring to suggest that Scotland should do the same thing. Doesn't seem logical to me.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexi...independence-northern-ireland-new-poll-2018-9


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> 48% of voters in Scotland say they would back independence from the UK


What was the figure when Scotland had a referendum on independence in 2014? Not that much different I thought.


----------



## stockwellcat.

That 52% and 48% figure sounds vaguely familiar to me and wasn't it used in 2016?


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> What was that figure when Scotland had a referendum on independence in 2014? Not that much different I thought.


In the referendum itself it was roughly 55 / 45 against independence. In the polls for that year I've seen 2 that had Yes ahead and 65 with No in the lead.

This poll shows that a majority would vote No to independence if there were no Brexit. I guess all it really tells us is that Brexit is making it more likely that Scotland will break away. Whether they would take the plunge or not when it came to it is a moot point.

Certainly the economic advantages of staying in the UK would be weakened by Brexit, but whether that would tip the balance I wouldn't like to guess.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That 52% and 48% figure sounds vaguely familiar to me and wasn't it used in 2016?


You might be thinking of the UK referendum where the result was approximately 52 / 48. This is something very different.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> That 52% and 48% figure sounds vaguely familiar to me and wasn't it used in 2016?


Yes, EU referendum was 52/48.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Colliebarmy

we
aint
leaving


----------



## Arnie83

A pragmatic, sober look at the consequences of a no-deal scenario.

It's in the pro-EU Grauniad, but it's not an opinion piece, rather quoting extensively from a study by "UK in a Changing Europe" based at King's College, London.

Worth a read if you're interested.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...study-warns-of-severe-short-term-impact-on-uk


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> A pragmatic, sober look at the consequences of a no-deal scenario.
> 
> It's in the pro-EU Grauniad, but it's not an opinion piece, rather quoting extensively from a study by "UK in a Changing Europe" based at King's College, London.
> 
> Worth a read if you're interested.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...study-warns-of-severe-short-term-impact-on-uk


Another pint of view from the Henry Jackson Society

https://brexitcentral.com/global-britain-brilliantly-placed-seize-opportunities-brexit/


----------



## Elles

@Goblin you are being patronising, verging on trolling. The mods have requested time and time again that people behave in a polite, respectful manner on these threads, but yet again someone drags it down.

If you hope to bring about another referendum and persuade people to vote remain, deliberately trying to wind people up, isnt the way to go about it.


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> Another pint of view from the Henry Jackson Society


You can tell this is a propaganda piece as soon as you start going into the details of the videos.

Simple example of the geopoltical video.. UK has high fertility rate and growing population.. due to immigration which is something which brexiteers want to drastically cut. It's strong in science yet brexit will hit UK science hard which is why the majority of scientists are against brexit. Open and tolerant nation.. don't know where the authors been since the referendum, do you?

Why does global britain matter.. nothing in there about benefits of leaving the EU is there.

In short the whole piece is telling us how great it is now within the EU.. not what will happen after.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Another pint of view from the Henry Jackson Society
> 
> https://brexitcentral.com/global-britain-brilliantly-placed-seize-opportunities-brexit/


The Henry Jackson Society is a dodgy neoconservative extremist think tank. Its so worrying that people are misled into believing these toxic propaganda outlets are a reliable source of information.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-pulls-funds-commons-groups-disclosure-rules


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> The Henry Jackson Society is a dodgy neoconservative extremist think tank. Its so worrying that people are misled into believing these toxic propaganda outlets are a reliable source of information.


A sort of UK version of Breitbart?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> @Goblin you are being patronising, verging on trolling. The mods have requested time and time again that people behave in a polite, respectful manner on these threads, but yet again someone drags it down.


What you mean I tell people they are talking nonsense and I ask questions they refuse to answer. I have not made personal attacks on anyone. You have.



> If you hope to bring about another referendum and persuade people to vote remain, deliberately trying to wind people up, isnt the way to go about it.


Facts and more facts. If people are not persuaded by those, insisting on perpetuating lies and misrepresentation then nothing will.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Another pint of view from the Henry Jackson Society
> 
> https://brexitcentral.com/global-britain-brilliantly-placed-seize-opportunities-brexit/


Interesting, but a very different topic from the short-term effects of a no-deal Brexit.

It seems to be telling us how great we are and how we aren't failing. E.g. The first video gives reasons why Britain "is not the sick man of Europe." But as far as I know no-one has ever said that we are the sick man of Europe, have they? At least not since the mid-70s. And isn't our strong position in the world testament to how well we have done while members of the EU?

And when it concludes "So Britain is not the weak and failing nation its detractors like to depict it to be", no-one has ever suggested it is, have they?

And when it uses that undisputed conclusion to suggest how well we can do post-Brexit, it doesn't give any reason why we shouldn't do exactly the same as a continuing member of the EU.

One thing, right at the start: "One the one hand, some people - generally those supportive of "Remain" - felt that the sky was falling in. They argued that the United Kingdom was making a profound strategic mistake and that it would suffer - economically, above all else - for doing so."

I don't think the sky is falling or will fall in, but then that phrase is just used so that the rest of the piece can dismantle a claim that no-one has made.

But what I *do* say is that we *will* suffer economically.

Once again, and very simply: *If the costs of business rise, then the growth of GDP will slow down.*

While that is true, Brexit will cost us.

We'll survive, of course, and do very well compared to most other countries, of course, and remain "Great" of course, if that sort of thing floats one's boat. No-one disputes that. It's just that the people who live here will be a bit worse off than they otherwise would be.


----------



## Arnie83

AND (I'm going to get a bit controversial and preachy here, so sorry in advance!)

The whole point of that piece on the Brexit Central website is to demonstrate how great and powerful and influential Global Britain is and will be. What a big and successful fish we'll be in the world.

It's assumed, and therefore not even considered, that while people may dispute the greatness etc, no-one would even consider that wanting it might not be a good thing. Surely it's what everyone wants!

To me it - both the obvious yearning for 'power' and the assumption that everyone must feel the same - smacks of the tribalism which I so dislike and which the original manifestation of the EU was set up to counter; to prevent the posturing and competition from boiling over, eventually into violence.

Whether their argument is right or wrong, I am depressed that it is the focal point of Brexit Central's argument in favour of leaving the EU. They don't want or value ever closer cooperation between nations; they want to put distance between us, have competition between us, and to come out on top. We've seen how that always ends, and I think it's time we tried something else.

But that's just a rant. We are where we are.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I just remind you our participation in a quite unsavoury war under false pretenses, led into by our Big Brother while EU really sat tight on their hands and sent their “ experts on logistics “.

So judging by previous experiences we are much more likely to get into another such war if out of EU and closest friends with USA under the lead of Donald Trump.

No need to get offended.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting, but a very different topic from the short-term effects of a no-deal Brexit.


Also interesting from the comment about the threat of Russia.. Is there a reason Russia is thought to have pushed for and supported Brexit? Even if they didn't, how does brexit help the situation?


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I just remind you our participation in a quite unsavoury war under false pretenses, led into by our Big Brother while EU really sat tight on their hands and sent their " experts on logistics ".
> 
> So judging by previous experiences we are much more likely to get into another such war if out of EU and closest friends with USA under the lead of Donald Trump.
> 
> No need to get offended.


I think - hope - it very unlikely, and I wouldn't use it as an argument to stay in, but I think you must logically be right.

If a country is keen to raise its profile in the world and take a lead on the world stage, then it follows that it is more likely to intervene in international situations. But as I say I would hope that many other factors would mitigate that.

And the Iraq war was another example of how membership of the EU did not mean that we couldn't act as an independent country (more's the pity!).


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Also interesting from the comment about the threat of Russia.. Is there a reason Russia is thought to have pushed for and supported Brexit? Even if they didn't, how does brexit help the situation?


Well for all the geopolitical waffle analysis, there's no denying that Putin sees a more disunited Europe as more in Russia's interests.


----------



## Eeyore

Elles said:


> People were told that there was going to be an Eu army, or at least the powers at the Eu wanted there to be. It's now changed to a coop outside the Eu. Possibly because Britain are leaving?
> 
> A lot of things have changed, not least because our government made it so. We also didn't fall into a black pit the day after the vote, which remain told us would happen.


What is it about EU peace forces that you don´t like? Nothing new about it either. Still very underfunded, weak and strong only as an idea. Naturally now when Nato lead by Trump seems to be not so friendly and peaceful, some EU countries would like it to become stronger. But as EU countries don´t want to use any more money in it, it will be more like a symbol of an army. Especially if you think that NATO countries are struggling to pay the 2% they are supposed to. Do you really see that countries will fund two armies? But, of course if Nato becomes a playfield for a madman, who knows what will happen? I´d trust way more the EU army than current Nato ruled by Trump. Iraq war doesn´t increase my trust either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy Notice that UK is still part of this, and has been making these decisions years ago together with other EU nations without any problem.

Compare that with Nato. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO



stockwellcat. said:


> My participation to this thread is limited and will remain so.
> 
> Some more on the EU army for what it's worth:
> https://www.eurocorps.org/readiness/european-battle-group/
> 
> Since some on here only like to read stuff that is from the EU itself well here then a link from europa.eu: https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/33557/eu-battlegroups_en
> 
> The Battle Group has been in existance since 2007. On the 25th June 2018 9 European countries including the UK, France, Germany, Brussels, The Netherlands etc signed off on setting up a European military force or better known as a joint military intervention force for rapid deployment in times of crisis (an EU army).
> https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force
> So is it a pipe dream I ask you as it doesn't look like it?


See the wikipedia link, if that is still is within your limited boundaries of participating in this thread. So what is the actual news? The current news is that France tries to get more support for EU army, as Mackron really doesn´t like current US government, but in reality Nato is the only military power in Europe. EU army don´t have enough power to do anything, apart from being the symbol of an idea. Or are you saying that UK doesn´t know what it has been doing for all these years and suddenly realised this? Come on, you must give some credit for your own government?



cheekyscrip said:


> I just remind you our participation in a quite unsavoury war under false pretenses, led into by our Big Brother while EU really sat tight on their hands and sent their " experts on logistics ".
> 
> So judging by previous experiences we are much more likely to get into another such war if out of EU and closest friends with USA under the lead of Donald Trump. No need to get offended.


That is what many countries are a bit worried at the moment. Who can really trust Trump? I trust way more our own EU government that him, even when we have a few not so democratic governments on board. Still, nothing like Trump.



Goblin said:


> Also interesting from the comment about the threat of Russia.. Is there a reason Russia is thought to have pushed for and supported Brexit? Even if they didn't, how does brexit help the situation?


I think Russia aimes to weaken Europe, and wishes to have less democracy and human rights all around. Lots of political troll factories are either Russian or funded by them. Apparently even anti-vaccination news get support from them, as supporting anti-vaccination decreases trust in democratic bodies and facts. Most nationalist parties in EU are pro Russian and have been funded by them. E.g. in Austria Putin attented their foreign minister´s wedding: le Pen received thousands from Russia etc. Nationalism, Trump, Brexit and Putin are all mixed in a very unsavory cocktail. I don´t mean Brexit voters supported Putin, but the way Brexit was conducted was supported by him and that alone gives me shivers.



Arnie83 said:


> I think - hope - it very unlikely, and I wouldn't use it as an argument to stay in, but I think you must logically be right. If a country is keen to raise its profile in the world and take a lead on the world stage, then it follows that it is more likely to intervene in international situations. But as I say I would hope that many other factors would mitigate that.
> 
> And the Iraq war was another example of how membership of the EU did not mean that we couldn't act as an independent country (more's the pity!).


So true. In EU UK has been great and powerful, and able to make independently decisions. What will happen in the future for British people, when UK will be weaker financially and has less less friendly partners as allies? I am really worried that some unscrupulous billionaires are selling British people really cheap for the highest bidder and the nation will be paying for it decades.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> A sort of UK version of Breitbart?


That's rather funny


----------



## cheekyscrip

Eeyore said:


> What is it about EU peace forces that you don´t like? Nothing new about it either. Still very underfunded, weak and strong only as an idea. Naturally now when Nato lead by Trump seems to be not so friendly and peaceful, some EU countries would like it to become stronger. But as EU countries don´t want to use any more money in it, it will be more like a symbol of an army. Especially if you think that NATO countries are struggling to pay the 2% they are supposed to. Do you really see that countries will fund two armies? But, of course if Nato becomes a playfield for a madman, who knows what will happen? I´d trust way more the EU army than current Nato ruled by Trump. Iraq war doesn´t increase my trust either.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy Notice that UK is still part of this, and has been making these decisions years ago together with other EU nations without any problem.
> 
> Compare that with Nato. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO
> 
> See the wikipedia link, if that is still is within your limited boundaries of participating in this thread. So what is the actual news? The current news is that France tries to get more support for EU army, as Mackron really doesn´t like current US government, but in reality Nato is the only military power in Europe. EU army don´t have enough power to do anything, apart from being the symbol of an idea. Or are you saying that UK doesn´t know what it has been doing for all these years and suddenly realised this? Come on, you must give some credit for your own government?
> 
> That is what many countries are a bit worried at the moment. Who can really trust Trump? I trust way more our own EU government that him, even when we have a few not so democratic governments on board. Still, nothing like Trump.
> 
> I think Russia aimes to weaken Europe, and wishes to have less democracy and human rights all around. Lots of political troll factories are either Russian or funded by them. Apparently even anti-vaccination news get support from them, as supporting anti-vaccination decreases trust in democratic bodies and facts. Most nationalist parties in EU are pro Russian and have been funded by them. E.g. in Austria Putin attented their foreign minister´s wedding: le Pen received thousands from Russia etc. Nationalism, Trump, Brexit and Putin are all mixed in a very unsavory cocktail. I don´t mean Brexit voters supported Putin, but the way Brexit was conducted was supported by him and that alone gives me shivers.
> 
> So true. In EU UK has been great and powerful, and able to make independently decisions. What will happen in the future for British people, when UK will be weaker financially and has less less friendly partners as allies? I am really worried that some unscrupulous billionaires are selling British people really cheap for the highest bidder and the nation will be paying for it decades.


Just exactly what I see, the great Brexit winners are Russian Putin led oligarchs and British money makers like Aaron Banks.


----------



## Eeyore

cheekyscrip said:


> Just exactly what I see, the great Brexit winners are Russian Putin led oligarchs and British money makers like Aaron Banks.


And you of all people knows what it means to live under a regime without human rights. It is no joke and we all should really have a little lesson in history. bad times can come back so easily if we don´t fight back. We need to look for the signs so that history won´t repeat itself. Freedom of speech, democracy an d working for common goals together should be every body´s agenda.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Eeyore said:


> And you of all people knows what it means to live under a regime without human rights. It is no joke and we all should really have a little lesson in history. bad times can come back so easily if we don´t fight back. We need to look for the signs so that history won´t repeat itself. Freedom of speech, democracy an d working for common goals together should be every body´s agenda.


So much for Brexit being " the freedom " , so sad it is so ironic.
Maybe it is only visible from perspective? 
Then you could see it is really a small island and Russia is looming large indeed..
Then China, that will gladly see us their goods and USA who will take us by hand... down the garden path ... round and round like a teddy bear...


----------



## Elles

I don’t know why people didn’t like the idea of an Eu army. I didn’t give it much attention, which is why I didn’t know about it. I expect people think the Eu is getting too big for its boots and far removed from what was originally the common market, but that would be just guessing.


----------



## Elles

How come other countries manage outside of the Eu, without being taken over by Russia, China, or the USA?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I expect people think the Eu is getting too big for its boots and far removed from what was originally the common market, but that would be just guessing.


You're spot on.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I don't know why people didn't like the idea of an Eu army. I didn't give it much attention, which is why I didn't know about it.


Actually as it's nothing like the idea of the EU army pushed by those supporting leave it is a good idea. http://www.gmfus.org/publications/eu-military-cooperation-and-national-defense is a useful link from The German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF) which, from what I can see, is a fairly unbiased source. It also highlights some problems and disagreements which need to be resolved within the EU. Doesn't change the main fact that it is cooperation, not an army controlled by the EU.



Elles said:


> I expect people think the Eu is getting too big for its boots and far removed from what was originally the common market, but that would be just guessing.


No shock when they've been lied to for years is it and still refuse to look at facts. EU has been constantly scapegoated for the failures of the UK governments. It's also ignoring that the EU is democratic and the UK has actually influenced a lot of the changes. With the major ones it didn't agree with, they frequently managed to get an exemption or veto. Why is it that the day after the referendum the most common search term of Google from the UK was "what is the EU"? Too big for it's boots is a wonderful phrase but doesn't provide anything other than a useful soundbite. Leaver's are still unable to come up with details of what they do not agree with, why they are negative and how brexit is positive for the UK. In fact the only thing so far really put forward is your animal live trade which we've discussed previously and isn't as simple as leave and we can do our own thing. Instead leavers come up with soundbites like we can make up our own laws although we've been doing that within the EU. Examples: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/uk-laws-2017-vaping-smoking-12402439 https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/how-laws-being-introduced-2018-14064966



Elles said:


> How come other countries manage outside of the Eu, without being taken over by Russia, China, or the USA?


Define taken over. We are not simply talking land mass and invasion. When looking at influence who says they aren't being taken over? How much investment does China have in Africa for example and how much influence does it have on governments? In fact you would be possibly shocked at the inroads China has made into the EU, especially in the UK and Greece although it's present also in Germany and other countries.Hinkley Point Nuclear plant for example. Some members in the EU are pushing the idea of limiting investment and implementing a screening process but some countries, such as Greece are against it. UK alone is unlikely to implement it whereas countries such as Australia already have such screening in place. USA.. well the UK tends to follow the US wherever they lead us with the UK government unable to stand up to US firms, unlike the EU which has demonstrated in the past it will do so.

EDIT: Correction.. "what is the EU" was the 2nd most googled term after the referendum result, not most googled. Most popular was "What does it mean to leave the EU?"


----------



## Elles

China and the Russians are doing quite well buying out England while we’re in the Eu and I think I read somewhere that Corbyn wanted to buy back our railways from Germany? Wasn’t there some big fuss about buying London houses from absent Oligarchs to home the Grenfell survivors? It doesn’t seem to have much to do with the Eu.

If Remainers had that good an argument for staying in they would have won the vote. They need to come up with new arguments, not keep going over the same old ground that lost them support last time imo. I think we agreed that the Remain campaign was as much the cause of the leave vote as the leave campaign was.

Why should we rely on the Eu to save us from our government policy? That should be the responsibility of the voter, like it is in other countries. Many of these countries have better living standards outside of the Eu than we have inside it. That’s what you’re competing with, not Russians on Facebook. Again imo.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, especially with arrangements already in place as a member of the EU.
> 
> Not being able to conquer the rest of Europe May is looking towards "Inferior" nations Britain once dominated and throws £4bn at them. Some of these regimes are well dodgy. Homosexuality remains illegal in some of them.
> 
> It would have been nice had May commented on such appalling human rights issues, then she doesn't believe in them herself.
> 
> Nor would she comment on the campaign to have Nelson Mandela released the Conservatives at the time referred to as a terrorist.


Anglea Merkel also paid a visit to Africa and I don't see her getting slammed about it on here.

https://amp.dw.com/en/opinion-angela-merkel-in-africa-a-transparent-tour/a-45317704


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Anglea Merkel also paid a visit to Africa and I don't see her getting slammed about it on here.
> 
> https://amp.dw.com/en/opinion-angela-merkel-in-africa-a-transparent-tour/a-45317704


As did President Macron

https://frenchly.us/africa-gets-a-charm-offensive-visit-from-macron/


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> China and the Russians are doing quite well buying out England while we're in the Eu and I think I read somewhere that Corbyn wanted to buy back our railways from Germany? Wasn't there some big fuss about buying London houses from absent Oligarchs to home the Grenfell survivors? It doesn't seem to have much to do with the Eu.
> 
> *If Remainers had that good an argument for staying in they would have won the vote. They need to come up with new arguments, not keep going over the same old ground that lost them support last time imo. I think we agreed that the Remain campaign was as much the cause of the leave vote as the leave campaign was.*
> 
> Why should we rely on the Eu to save us from our government policy? That should be the responsibility of the voter, like it is in other countries. Many of these countries have better living standards outside of the Eu than we have inside it. That's what you're competing with, not Russians on Facebook. Again imo.


I really don't want to go round the loop to the reasons for voting one way or the other, but it's always very difficult to big-up the status quo when the other side can promise the earth, however unrealistically.

That's why, now that we know the promises are probably not going to be delivered*, there is a very strong democratic case for a People's Vote on the negotiated deal, whatever that may be.

* The only one left seems to be overblown promises of Global Free Trade, and that's the biggest load of nonsense that there is.


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> A sort of UK version of Breitbart?


Very much so. Criss crossing the Atlantic these hard right outlets & Americas alt right are connected in a dark network. Breitbarts USA, Breitbarts London & so on & an army of dodgy right wing think tanks like Henry Jackson society are all pushing the same agenda using propaganda to dupe masses of ordinary people into voting against their own best interests.
For example Alan Mendoza is Executive director of Henry Jackson society and is a YBF alumni which has strong links to Americas neocon movement. Breitbart's Raheem Kassam has links with YBF, was a UKIP candidate, is linked to top fascist Steve Bannon & so much more. Its a really tangled web, journalist Carole Cadwalladr has done amazing work untangling it









[


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> That's rather funny


Theres nothing remotely funny about masses of people being fooled into voting against not only their own best interests but the interests of our living planet.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Anglea Merkel also paid a visit to Africa and I don't see her getting slammed about it on here.
> 
> https://amp.dw.com/en/opinion-angela-merkel-in-africa-a-transparent-tour/a-45317704





Magyarmum said:


> As did President Macron
> 
> https://frenchly.us/africa-gets-a-charm-offensive-visit-from-macron/


Could it be shes getting slammed for her breathtaking hypocrisy?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> China and the Russians are doing quite well buying out England while we're in the Eu and I think I read somewhere that Corbyn wanted to buy back our railways from Germany? Wasn't there some big fuss about buying London houses from absent Oligarchs to home the Grenfell survivors? It doesn't seem to have much to do with the Eu.
> 
> If Remainers had that good an argument for staying in they would have won the vote. They need to come up with new arguments, not keep going over the same old ground that lost them support last time imo. I think we agreed that the Remain campaign was as much the cause of the leave vote as the leave campaign was.
> 
> Why should we rely on the Eu to save us from our government policy? That should be the responsibility of the voter, like it is in other countries. Many of these countries have better living standards outside of the Eu than we have inside it. That's what you're competing with, not Russians on Facebook. Again imo.


No the selling off of our public assets, Grenfell are all thanks to the tories neoliberal ideology - not the EU. Outside of the EU we will feel the full force of disaster capitalism.

Leave won by a tiny minority - Vote leave cheated - the referendum was gerrymandered in favour of leaving the EU. Anyone who believes in a democracy would not defend the result.

We dont 'rely' on the EU we are part of it, we collaborate together & it has made us prosperous. We were once known as the sick man of Europe & the dirty man of Europe....


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Could it be shes getting slammed for her breathtaking hypocrisy?


I was naturally curious about the large 50 cent like chain hanging around her neck, and wondered if she was wearing it to get some idea of what it's going to be like when they finally do put the old heifer in chains?

Be nice to see them all shackled together and put in stocks, so that the people could pelt them with stockpiled rotten eggs and tomatoes.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> I was naturally curious about the large 50 cent like chain hanging around her neck, and wondered if she was wearing it to get some idea of what it's going to be like when they finally do put the old heifer in chains?
> 
> Be nice to see them all shackled together and put in stocks, so that the people could pelt them with *stockpiled* rotten eggs and tomatoes.


hahaa

I would pay to have a go at pelting them! Right on the nose they'd get it:Smuggrin


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Could it be shes getting slammed for her breathtaking hypocrisy?


Please don't lecture me about a subject about which you have no knowledge. If there is a hypocrite then it's Micheal Whatsisname not TM!.

Unlike you I have first hand knowledge of what life in SA was like both during and after apartheid and in my own small way hope I played a role, albeit minor in bringing about the end of apartheid.

Both the UK and the EU could learn a few lessons from South Africa about how to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution.

Perhaps you should listen to this interview with Roelf Meyer the chief negotiator.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Please don't lecture me about a subject about which you have no knowledge. If there is a hypocrite then it's Micheal Whatsisname not TM!.
> 
> Unlike you I have first hand knowledge of what life in SA was like both during and after apartheid and in my own small way hope I played a role, albeit minor in bringing about the end of apartheid.
> 
> Both the UK and the EU could learn a few lessons from South Africa about how to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution.
> 
> Perhaps you should listen to this interview with Roelf Meyer the chief negotiator.


I wasn't lecturing you. I believe Theresa May is a hypocrite. Michael Crick did his job as a journalist in exposing that - IMO.

In case you hadn't noticed the tory party has been hijacked by the hard right - the ERG. They dont want to negotiate with the EU, they actually want us to crash out without a deal. They want the country to fall into chaos. This is how disaster capitalists make profit. So the video is a moot point.


----------



## KittenKong

.... which I recall Mr Rees-Mogg saying may take 50 years......

Personally I used to think the UK was great as an EU member but each to their own.....


----------



## noushka05

*NEW:* 2.6 million Leave voters have ditched their support for Brexit since the referendum, new data seen by The Independent shows - boosting calls for a Final Say vote 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...esa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *NEW:* 2.6 million Leave voters have ditched their support for Brexit since the referendum, new data seen by The Independent shows - boosting calls for a Final Say vote
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...esa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html


Can this source of information be trusted?
On 23rd June 2016 they said this.









How wrong they were.

But I am not nit picking or looking for confrontation just making an observation.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I wasn't lecturing you. I believe Theresa May is a hypocrite. Michael Crick did his job as a journalist in exposing that - IMO.


Typical politician, Noush' couldn't lie straight in bed, never mind answer a question straight.

Kinda reminds me of someone else just a tube station or two away.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Can this source of information be trusted?
> On 23rd June 2016 they said this.
> View attachment 366998
> 
> 
> How wrong they were.
> But I am not nit picking or looking for confrontation just making an observation.


Had vote leave not cheated remain more than likely _would have_ won SWC. All leave had to do was change the mind of just 2% of voters to win - & they used military grade pyschological techniques to do so. We didn't know all this until well after the ref.

I think even without a poll most people looking objectively can now plainly see brexit is going to be disastrous for this country, for the people in it, our NHS & public services & for the environment, so its logical to assume, even without polls, the vote would have a different outcome.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> China and the Russians are doing quite well buying out England while we're in the Eu and I think I read somewhere that Corbyn wanted to buy back our railways from Germany? Wasn't there some big fuss about buying London houses from absent Oligarchs to home the Grenfell survivors? It doesn't seem to have much to do with the Eu.


That's because the EU hasn't done anything to stop it yet and we retain our own sovereignty within the EU. That sovereignty bit is key. You are also missing the whole point of Stronger together. That isn't simply a soundbite, it is reality.



> If Remainers had that good an argument for staying in they would have won the vote....I think we agreed that the Remain campaign was as much the cause of the leave vote as the leave campaign was.


First I notice you ignore that leavers are unable to come up with advantages to leave based on facts. That's important and why, instead of advantages the discussion now is about the level of damage done. I accept the majority of people didn't vote to damage the country although in the face of overwhelming evidence it will. Sticking to brexit when you cannot show advantages means some obviously did. That in itself says so much about brexit doesn't it. Charge of the light brigade has been mentioned before but it's apt. Self harm simply as you refuse to admit you are wrong. Trouble is it's not self harm, it's also harming others.

I agree totally however that the remain campaign was a disaster. You may find the following link interesting even though it's about Trump...






Then there is: https://www.businessinsider.de/brexit-campaign-clever-nazi-propaganda-2018-4?r=US&IR=T where Andy Wigmore, communications director for Leave.EU stating


> The only way we were going to make a noise was to follow the Trump doctrine, which was: the more outrageous we are, the more attention we'll get, and the more attention we get, the more outrageous we'll be. And that's exactly what we did


All the time people are condoning obvious lies, which you've seen frequently in brexit, democracy is threatened. When people *prefer* lies to facts, democracy is threatened. It's not they do not know the facts, they just don't want them. We've seen that in brexit threads. Bear in mind, this doesn't simply apply to brexit but democracy in general. It's a scary reality for the future.



> Why should we rely on the Eu to save us from our government policy? That should be the responsibility of the voter, like it is in other countries. Many of these countries have better living standards outside of the Eu than we have inside it.


Well personally in the UK we fool ourselves into pretending we can hold any government to account. We need a complete overhaul of the political process by doing things like implementing proportional representation. Not going to happen however. Instead we have the government trying to bypass parliament. We also have a government trying to avoid finding out the "will of the people" by stating it needs to follow the "will of the people". Let's see 7 months to go and the Tories can still not even agree about brexit. Surely what needed is to find out what "people" want.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Can this source of information be trusted?
> On 23rd June 2016 they said this.
> View attachment 366998
> 
> 
> How wrong they were.
> 
> But I am not nit picking or looking for confrontation just making an observation.


I'm inclined to agree upto a point as the Express etc. would suggest their poll says the opposite.

That would probably be true of their readers as much as this would be true of Independent readers.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Can this source of information be trusted?
> ...
> How wrong they were.
> 
> But I am not nit picking or looking for confrontation just making an observation.


Which is the problem of polls. They are a snapshot in time, opinions change especially when information available changes. Very much like the referendum, itself only a more "official" opinion poll.


----------



## KittenKong

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=672872206429382


----------



## Elles

You lose me Goblin. Why would the Eu dictate who someone can sell their house to, or stop the German government buying a British rail franchise if it’s offered to them? Stronger together only works if you really are together and working on the same thing. Obviously the individual country members of the Eu aren’t always wanting the same thing.

Other countries do fine outside of the Eu, some provide better living standards than we do. That’s an undeniable fact. Nothing to do with lies and propaganda. Are you all saying that Britain can’t, or won’t?


----------



## Elles

Oh, I just read the reported survey of 15,000 people, many of whom said they voted remain, but now want to leave. How on Earth that becomes a headline about 2.6 million people wanting to stay in, I have no idea. What is it they say about statistics? I think it goes tenfold for these polls. 

Remainers should actually be worried. There should be close to zero changing their minds about staying in, but many leavers changing their minds and wanting to remain, with the current mess and all this supposedly overwhelming evidence that the Eu is the way to go.

That a significant number of remain voters now also want to leave should be of concern, whether it would swing a second vote or not.


----------



## Arnie83

I saw the Independent poll and was not fully convinced. As an old cynic, I'd prefer a poll commissioned by a neutral group.

Interestingly, though, the Indy poll also showed nearly a million had changed their minds from Remain to Leave. Still a 1.6m swing, but also indicating that opinion is hardly flooding in one direction or the other.

For the sake of democracy in this country, though, we will surely have to ask the people if May's negotiated deal is what they wanted, and that will settle the matter.

Edit: Typing at the same time as @Elles !


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> You lose me Goblin. Why would the Eu dictate who someone can sell their house to, or stop the German government buying a British rail franchise if it's offered to them?


Why has Australia which isn't in the EU? Haven't you complained about lobbying etc and it's effects previously? Are you now saying you want foreign countries to be able to strongly influence UK policy and direction?



> Stronger together only works if you really are together and working on the same thing. Obviously the individual country members of the Eu aren't always wanting the same thing.


Which is why it is important that the EU is a democracy. You know one of the many things Leave lied about during campaigning. One of the things about democracy is the ability to actually work together and discuss things, working out differences when they occur. Are you saying the EU isn't stronger than individual countries? Great example is the brexit negotiations. Out of interest who do you say holds the cards and why is that so?



> Other countries do fine outside of the Eu, some provide better living standards than we do. That's an undeniable fact. Nothing to do with lies and propaganda. Are you all saying that Britain can't, or won't?


Interesting distraction which evades the main point. Simple fact.. we can do better within the EU. Now if you don't agree with that statement please explain how we will do better outside as so far nobody has been able to. Why is it that it's now simply discussion as to how much damage is going to be done on leaving not about any benefits to leaving?

As to why.. well that has always been up to the government, not the EU. We have always retained our sovereignty after all.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> That a significant number of remain voters now also want to leave should be of concern, whether it would swing a second vote or not.


One has to wonder.. how would people vote if the government was actually "strong and stable"? How many simply want the whole thing finished with regardless of the cost as some determination is better than limbo? How much of it is the great UK stubborness at play.. we are "losing" at the negotiations. Like the original referendum.. how much is actually about leaving the EU and how much of it is due to other issues?


----------



## Elles

Why do you want the Eu to have control over whether someone buys a house in the U.K., or leave it to the Eu whether the German government buy a BR franchise? Where have I said I want foreign countries to be ‘able to strongly influence the UK’. Isn’t that more likely inside the Eu. I really don’t understand your posts at all. What has Australia got to do with it and I’ve often pressed for lobbying, rather than people just posting on the Internet. 

It could be a fact that we can do better inside the Eu, but it’s not much of a fact is it? It’s another of those mights and maybes you criticise the leave campaign for. We can give the NHS more money, we can do better inside the Eu. We can do a lot of things. Sorry, but your facts are opinions and ifs, buts and maybes, same as most other facts atm.

Maybe if government and Eu negotiations were going really well and both the government and Eu were strong and stable, there would be no thread.

There should be no card holding. It’s not a game.

Other countries do fine outside of the Eu and offer better living standards to their residents. Are you saying that the U.K. can’t, or won’t?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Why do you want the Eu to have control over whether someone buys a house in the U.K., or leave it to the Eu whether the German government buy a BR franchise? Where have I said I want foreign countries to be 'able to strongly influence the UK'. Isn't that more likely inside the Eu. I really don't understand your posts at all. What has Australia got to do with it and I've often pressed for lobbying, rather than people just posting on the Internet.


If you followed the posts as a conversation, we were discussing foreign influence of countries such as Russia and China. My mistake about your view on lobbying, I was understanding that you were against companies etc lobbying at the expense of things like environment, that you were against those with money effectively making the decisions. I don't agree, I think it's a bad thing and some "thing" needs to be able to pull them up.



> It could be a fact that we can do better inside the Eu, but it's not much of a fact is it? It's another of those mights and maybes you criticise the leave campaign for. We can give the NHS more money, we can do better inside the Eu. We can do a lot of things. Sorry, but your facts are opinions and ifs, buts and maybes, same as most other facts atm.


Dear dear.. so tell me how are we going to be better off? We know we lose out of 60+ trade arrangements which allow ease of exporting goods. We know the single market and customs union actually benefit the UK. WE know that 27 of the 35 advanced economies in the world are in the EU. That's not opinion, that is fact. Of course we can give the NHS more money. The government decides that but the government will have less money to spend and spread around. The idea of a brexit dividend touted on the bus has been shown to be false. That's also not opinion. Again.. tell me how the UK will be better off out of the EU?



> Maybe if government and Eu negotiations were going really well and both the government and Eu were strong and stable, there would be no thread.


No, giving up the Idea of brexit would mean there was no thread. EU is actually quite strong and stable.



> There should be no card holding. It's not a game.


Nice diversion but no answer. Who is in the stronger position in negotiations.. EU or UK? What is stronger 27 countries or 1?



> Other countries do fine outside of the Eu and offer better living standards to their residents. Are you saying that the U.K. can't, or won't?


Again.. living standards are determined by governments, not the EU. EU generally sets minimum standards, protecting people's rights. What the government does on top of that is up to them. So who should people blame for a countries standard of living?


----------



## Elles

We are posting at cross purposes. If we don’t do better outside of the Eu, other countries manage it, so what is the difference between them and us. Government, proportional representation, people who take responsibility for their own actions? We don’t have any of those three, so it’s unlikely we will be better off whether we stay in or not. 

My question wasn’t will we be better off inside the Eu, my question was other countries manage fine outside of the Eu and have better living standards than we do. Are you saying the U.K. can’t or won’t. If you are right and it is better to be inside the Eu, yet countries outside of it do even better, who is at fault? Is that because the U.K. can’t do any better, or because it won’t. 

Company representatives should be able to lobby the government if they want to, as should we. Lobby just means to put forward their case to try to persuade. It doesn’t mean successfully.

Negotiations between the U.K. and the Eu should lead to benefits for both and should be negotiations. No one should be holding cards and trying to win points, or ransom. If Britain’s government want a good deal with the Eu and it seems it does, we will either actually stay in, or we’ll technically leave, but still be part of the Eu in all but name. Which is what I still expect to happen. No one holds any cards if the British government are prepared to walk away without a deal.

I’ve asked you the same question 3 times and you accuse me of sidestepping and diverting? Lol

And again ‘Dear, dear...so tell me how we are going to better off’. Patronising imo.

As I have said on numerous occasions, I voted remain, because I don’t trust our government, or the Eu. Given the people we currently have in charge and in opposition I don’t think we will do as well as we could. Whether we stay in or not. So how am I going to tell you how we are going to be better off? I presume you’re talking economically again? For us, as we sell at home and abroad it could go either way. Our sales have never been better, so our family are already better off. I’m not about to think that just because we are, the country is or will be generally. However, I can see no reason why the country couldn’t do better.

Of course in comparison to 40 years ago an awful lot of people are better off, both inside and outside of the Eu and even in Britain. A lot of people are a lot worse off too, worldwide, but they don’t seem to count.

Whether we’re in a better state than we otherwise would have been, or will be, I have no idea. We’d need a parallel universe to know that for certain. The experts don’t seem to be able to agree on it, so why I’m supposed to have all the answers I don’t know.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> We are posting at cross purposes. If we don't do better outside of the Eu, other countries manage it, so what is the difference between them and us. Government, proportional representation, people who take responsibility for their own actions? We don't have any of those three, so it's unlikely we will be better off whether we stay in or not.


Ignoring the points made in previous posts. Tell me what does the single market/customs union do? Do you disagree that moving "product" internationally (not just within the EU) with minimum red tape is good for the country? How many trade arrangements does the EU have and what is their effect on things like trade? Compare that with say America. How many trade arrangements with the rest of the world do they have? Does the EU prevent the UK with trading outside the EU or does it encourage that trade?



> My question wasn't will we be better off inside the Eu, my question was other countries manage fine outside of the Eu and have better living standards than we do. Are you saying the U.K. can't or won't. If you are right and it is better to be inside the Eu, yet countries outside of it do even better, who is at fault? Is that because the U.K. can't do any better, or because it won't


Sorry, thought this thread was about brexit but then I've already answered anyway. As said before, how the government spends it's own money is up to it. Government spending, the culture and society wants and needs are not something the EU controls. If the government (any not just current ) actually worked to increase standard of living they could. Many countries within the EU do. Also depends on the definition of standard of living. Personally I include things like access to healthcare on a timely basis etc, not simply money based. There's a difference between "standard of living" and "quality of living", I'd prefer people made more out of the 2nd than the 1st. Outside brexit topic, one of the main problems is the distribution of wealth but that is another matter entirely.



> Negotiations between the U.K. and the Eu should lead to benefits for both and should be negotiations. No one should be holding cards and trying to win points, or ransom. If Britain's government want a good deal with the Eu and it seems it does, we will either actually stay in, or we'll technically leave, but still be part of the Eu in all but name. Which is what I still expect to happen. No one holds any cards if the British government are prepared to walk away without a deal.


Totally ignoring reality. Brexit = everyone loses. As for winning points or ransom, nothing like it. UK government wants to get what it can salvage from brexit, the EU is looking out for what is best for it's people within the EU. When the two are mutually opposite requirements, who is likely to get what they want?

No deal is the worst possible brexit for the UK and the impact far worse for the UK than for the EU. I'm prepared to change my mind if you can come up with reasons why that isn't the case.



> I've asked you the same question 3 times and you accuse me of sidestepping and diverting? Lol


Which question as so far I have answered all I have seen,although you've ignored the answers and refused to answer any in return.



> And again 'Dear, dear...so tell me how we are going to better off'. Patronising imo.


Yet once again, diversion rather than answering. Please explain how the UK will be better off outside the EU. What are the advantages outside the EU, not simply economically? It really comes down to what are the advantages of Brexit and nobody is coming up with any to even begin to counter the known negatives.



> The experts don't seem to be able to agree on it, so why I'm supposed to have all the answers I don't know.


Majority of expects are united about which side they stand on, be they economists, scientists, academia etc. Hint.. it's not pro brexit.


----------



## MilleD

Goblin said:


> Which is the problem of polls. They are a snapshot in time, opinions change especially when information available changes. Very much like the referendum, itself only a more "official" opinion poll.


Who do they ask when they do polls?

I don't know a single person that has ever been asked.


----------



## KittenKong

View from a Brexiter:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45400994


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> Who do they ask when they do polls?


I don't know the details but a quick investigation brought up the following...

Depends on who is doing the poll. As to why nobody gets asked, Ipsos mori explains it as follows:



> There is a story that George Gallup used to answer this complaint with the comment that "You are more likely to be struck by lightning than to be interviewed in one of my polls", until one lady retorted, "But Dr Gallup, I've been struck by lightning twice". But Gallup's logic is still fundamentally true, even with the vastly increased number of polls and surveys that are conducted today. There are about 42 million adults in Great Britain, and most polls have a sample size of 1,000 adults. In any given year, MORI conducts only just over 400,000 interviews - and that includes not only opinion polls (which are a comparatively small part of our business), but all our other market research work as well. So we ought to get round to you around once every hundred years - and that assumes, of course, that nobody is ever interviewed twice, which isn't true either. (MORI can strike twice, like the lightning in the case of Dr Gallup's unfortunate questioner.)


Method of selection varies as does how the data is collected, YouGov does it polls online, Ipsos Mori does it via telephone for example.



KittenKong said:


> View from a Brexiter:


Interesting considering before we started brexit we were higher than 6th.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I wonder what the surprise statement is after PMQ's (I shall be watching on BBC Parliament Channel)? The BBC are guessing it is to do with the Sailsbury attacks but the way the Guardian make it sound it is connected with Brexit with there headline. At this stage no one knows and that is why it is a surprise statement.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 367092
> 
> Well I wonder what the surprise statement is after PMQ's (I shall be watching on BBC Parliament Channel)? The BBC are guessing it is to do with the Sailsbury attacks but the way the Guardian make it sound it is connected with Brexit with there headline. At this stage no one knows and that is why it is a surprise statement.


It has been confirmed the statement will be about the Salisbury attack, there is now enough evidence for two people to be charged.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It could be a fact that we can do better inside the Eu, but it's not much of a fact is it? It's another of those mights and maybes you criticise the leave campaign for.





Elles said:


> My question wasn't will we be better off inside the Eu, my question was other countries manage fine outside of the Eu and have better living standards than we do. Are you saying the U.K. can't or won't. If you are right and it is better to be inside the Eu, yet countries outside of it do even better, who is at fault? Is that because the U.K. can't do any better, or because it won't.


Interesting questions, but I think they are impossible to answer because economic performance depends on so many different factors, some quite intangible, and because 'doing better' is not simply an economic concept.

Personally I think that there are many ways that the UK could be doing better than it is now, and I'm not quite sure* why we're not. E.g. Why does Germany sell so much more to the US than we do? That can't be down to EU membership.

One hard fact that we do have, that I've mentioned before, is that lower business costs = more profit = greater economic growth / more jobs / higher tax revenue (& opportunity for greater public spending on people / environment etc).

Now that is in isolation of other factors, but it is unarguable. And membership of the EU lowers our business costs. Whether that ultimately makes us 'better off' is moot because of the first sentence above, but it has certainly helped.

* actually I haven't much of a clue at all, but 'not quite sure' makes me sound so much cleverer!


----------



## Elles

India and China are doing rather well economically.


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## stockwellcat.

TM has just ruled out a second referendum again in Parliament. She is asking Corbyn to rule out a second referendum as well.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> TM has just ruled out a second referendum again in Parliament. She is asking Corbyn to rule out a second referendum as well.






Some people like democracy and are prepared to continue to push for it


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> India and China are doing rather well economically.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit does it unless you are saying simply we can survive, even do well in say 50 years. How many people will suffer in the process? Repeating the question asked all the way through these threads. What advantages are there for leaving the EU? If we can do well outside the EU we can do better within it. We are stronger as part of a group than we are alone on the international stage.

Maybe you are indicating the UK can compete against products from those countries? Remember this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

Personally I like having high standards.

Maybe you mean Prof' Minford's idea of having 0 tariffs so we can buy products from those countries cheaply. Of course that would mean the death of our agriculture and manufacturing as we could not compete internationally.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> India and China are doing rather well economically.


Not sure what you're getting at there. Could you elucidate?


----------



## Elles

Goblin said the U.K. were higher on the list. China and India are pushing other countries down.

Maybe my posts aren’t very clear lol. I’m saying that a lot of these arguments, on both sides, have very little, to nothing at all, to do with the Eu, or whether Britain is in or out of it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Some people like democracy and are prepared to continue to push for it


Nobody (MP's) seemed to be pushing for it today in Parliament and yesterday Raab shut Umunna down when he was delivering a speach about what he had been doing during the Summer with the negotiations. Alot of MP's agreed with what May had to say today about there not being another referendum. This is where the movement needs to be, in Parliament.

The problem is people are demanding a second referendum when no one knows what the potential deal is.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem is people are demanding a second referendum when no one knows what the potential deal is.


Of course the Tories and Corbyn are against a people's vote on the final Brexit deal. Nothing new there.

That won't stop people campaigning for one though which will place Corbyn under a great deal of pressure.

As far as I'm aware all major trade unions with the exception of Unite support a people's vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mayor of Manchester Andy Burnham said in the Manchester Evening News today that Manchester should prepare for civil unrest on the streets of Manchester if a second referendum should take place. Well that isn't exactly appealing if he thinks that will happen.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem is people are demanding a second referendum when no one knows what the potential deal is.


You seem to have forgotten this one..






After negotiations is what people are asking for. You know so people can make an informed choice. It takes time to set things up however.



stockwellcat. said:


> Mayor of Manchester Andy Burnham said in the Manchester Evening News today that Manchester should prepare for civil unrest on the streets of Manchester if a second referendum should take place.


Civil unrest has been predicted if the checkers agreement goes ahead. Civil unrest has been predicted on a hard brexit.

Of those three reasons to produce civil unrest, only one is protesting against people having a voice in the direction of the country and it's future. Of course there is a simple way to avoid it, cancel brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> India and China are doing rather well economically.


Oh yes, young population, not much of a health care or education for the poor, very high productivity, China has no weekends like us neither India, as to the costs to environment? Not to mention human rights or workers rights... Really a model to follow!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Of course there is a simple way to avoid it, cancel brexit.


No as this would cause civil unrest as well.

I don't see Corbyn stating he is backing a second referendum. He avoided answering this. He also got slapped down by TM today. No one knows where he stands.

Parliament seemed pretty much backing May today in PMQ's about her *No Second Referendum *stance.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh yes, young population, not much of a health care or education for the poor, very high productivity, China has no weekends like us neither India, as to the costs to environment? Not to mention human rights or workers rights... Really a model to follow!!!


This is what brexit was always about to those in power. Deregulation.


----------



## noushka05

Graham Linehan's just shared this.

What a quote. #Brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This is what brexit was always about to those in power. Deregulation.


So why is the Government doing everything they can to improve on environmental srandards now and after Brexit and improve animal welfare rights? This is an old article that has no relevance now as things have changed since December 2016.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament seemed pretty much backing May today in PMQ's about her *No Second Referendum *stance.


As they did with no general election.. guess what happened.



stockwellcat. said:


> So why is the Government doing everything they can to improve on environmental srandards now and after Brexit and improve animal welfare rights? This is an old article that has no relevance now as things have changed since December 2016.


You mean Gove's desparation to disassociate himself with brexit by making policies which sound great as headlines but actually have little impact in many cases.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Graham Linehan's just shared this.
> 
> What a quote. #Brexit


Did someone really say that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You mean Gove's desparation to disassociate himself with brexit by making policies which sound great as headlines but actually have little impact in many cases.


What's Goves job title?

I think he is doing his job that was assigned to him. But yes you have your opinion which is fair enough and I am allowed mine even though you disagree in such a negative mannner. I am not getting into a silly tit for tat disagreement with you over it and will leave that there.


----------



## Goblin

Goblin said:


> You mean Gove's desparation to disassociate himself with brexit by making policies which sound great as headlines but actually have little impact in many cases.


Here's a good one @stockwellcat. Electric vehicles.. great for the environment.. ban other types of cars in the future (we won't have to fulfill that promise but makes a great headline). Needs infrastructure however, things like charging points which needs to start ASAP. So how's that going. Well they were going to support the switch to zero-emission vehicles with a £400m fund for charging infrastructure. Half of the money was to come from the taxpayer, with the rest matched by the private sector,it was even in the budget. It was all supposed to start in the summer of 2018. Okay, so let's see, technically we are still in summer so should start any time now shouldn't it. So what is the current status.. the government has not even started the recruitment process for an official to raise the £200m of private investment - let alone begin the process of securing the funding.

Whilst things like plastics which have been thrown into the public eye by those outside the government, perhaps you can explain what is going on about fracking and the destruction of ancient woodlands. You know, things not in the headlines.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Here's a good one @stockwellcat. Electric vehicles.. great for the environment.. ban other types of cars in the future (we won't have to fulfill that promise but makes a great headline). Needs infrastructure however, things like charging points which needs to start ASAP. So how's that going. Well they were going to support the switch to zero-emission vehicles with a £400m fund for charging infrastructure. Half of the money was to come from the taxpayer, with the rest matched by the private sector,it was even in the budget. It was all supposed to start in the summer of 2018. Okay, so let's see, technically we are still in summer so should start any time now shouldn't it. So what is the current status.. the government has not even started the recruitment process for an official to raise the £200m of private investment - let alone begin the process of securing the funding.


It's funny you bring up electric cars and petrol and desiel cars being banned, the UK is not the only European country to be doing this the Netherlands (by 2030) and France (by 2040) I do believe are planning to do the same. Germany remains undecided


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Did someone really say that?


Well it certainly sounds feasible given complete and utter disaster that is brexit People all over social media are saying similar things (not usually as well (or as witty) as that particular quote). Deborah Meadens twitter feed is crammed with like minded responses .


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> It's funny tou bring up electric cars and other vehicles being banned, the UK is not the only European country to be doing this the Netherlands (by 2030) and France (by 2040) I do believe are planning to do the same. Germany remains undecided.


Hardly undecided.. more like doing things towards it rather than promising specific dates. In 2010 they promised to have over 1 million electric vehicles on the road by 2020. Let's see what's happening now.. https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/EN/Ar...d-incentives-for-using-electric-vehicles.html

€2.2bn for research and development into electric mobility but no headlines or specific dates promised to fill headlines.

UK government has invested how much? What is the UK government doing rather than promising?

Just out of interest how many times has the UK government been taken to court for failing to plan how to control polution levels which are consistently above EU regulations? What is being done about that now, rather than in 2030-2050?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Just out of interest how many times has the UK government been taken to court for failing to plan how to control polution levels which are consistently above EU regulations? What is being done about that now, rather than in 2030-2050?


Regarding polution levels lets say a no deal happened (obviously this is hyperthetical at the moment) the open skys agreement ends. It will be rather quiet in the skies as there would be no planes. Pollution would drop surely 

The UK is a major transport hub from the USA, Canada, Mexico, Ireland etc to Europe hence why it is nick named the gateway to Europe. What is being sent trade wise passes through the UK. It is no wonder the skies are polluted as the planes have to land here before going onward to there long haul European destination to refule. It is therefore no wonder that the UK's skies are polluted. I know that aeroplane pollution is only part of the problem. But please provide links to when the UK was last taken to court over planning how to control pollution levels as I do not recall this. Yes the UK has been fined recently but no court action.


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## Elles

I didn't say China and India are role models @cheekyscrip , I said they are doing well economically now, so have overtaken many countries on the leaderboard Goblin was talking about. I think China are now second or third or something, I forget. Uncertainty in the U.K. is probably having some effect. China has been very fast growing for some time now.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding polution levels lets say a no deal happened (obviously this is hyperthetical at the moment) the open skys agreement ends. It will be rather quiet in the skies as there would be no planes. Pollution would drop surely
> 
> The UK is a major transport hub from the USA, Canada, Mexico, Ireland etc to Europe hence why it is nick named the gateway to Europe. What is being sent trade wise passes through the UK. It is no wonder the skies are polluted as the planes have to land here before going onward to there long haul European destination to refule. It is therefore no wonder that the UK's skies are polluted. I know that aeroplane pollution is only part of the problem. But please provide links to when the UK was last taken to court over planning how to control pollution levels as I do not recall this. Yes the UK has been fined recently but no court action.


Here you go ...

http://www.euronews.com/2017/05/18/which-european-countries-are-the-most-polluted-who-statistics

.https://www.ecowatch.com/europe-air-pollution-2569699657.html

And talk about the pot calling the kettle black???

https://www.envirotech-online.com/n...court-over-water-pollution-and-nitrates/38868

https://metamag.org/2018/06/21/germ...es-for-breaking-eu-laws-on-nitrate-pollution/


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I didn't say China and India are role models @cheekyscrip , I said they are doing well economically now, so have overtaken many countries on the leaderboard Goblin was talking about. I think China are now second or third or something, I forget. Uncertainty in the U.K. is probably having some effect. China has been very fast growing for some time now.


https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

And projected for 2030

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ranke...in-2030-2017-2/#32-netherlands-108-trillion-1


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## stockwellcat.

Alot of this tit for tat arguements that keeps getting thrown at leavers for voting the way they did is ridiculous. The EU are not perfect and I personally do not think we'd be stronger together with the EU. We'd be stronger with our own independent trade deals that the UK is in control of, the UK is not in control of the trade deals the EU has. Regarding the environment other EU countries are as bad if not worse than the UK. We'd still be under the Paris agreement when we leave the EU as we have no intention of leaving it. Yes we need to make improvements but don't other countries to? As for the fines other countries got fined to. On the topic of the open skies if Ireland want to cut of their noses to spite their faces by banning flights from the UK after Brexit they will have to find an alternative mode of transporting goods to their country which will increase food and product prices in Ireland. All the food and products they sell from the EU currently comes through the UK to Ireland. They will have sudden shortages of supplies if they decide to stick to their threats of banning flights from the UK over their air space and of course there is the issue of people travelling to Ireland to fly on to onward destinations, they will simply avoid Ireland hence a knock on tourism to Ireland. But hey other EU countries keep making empty threats Merkel uturned tonight on her threat yesterday. I think other EU countries are acting silly some times and not taking the negotiations seriously.

*Note when I say Ireland I mean the republic not the North as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.


----------



## DogLover1981

I'm a bit of an outside observer of this and I have rarely commented about brexit since the vote first happened. Leaving the EU could potentially be a bumpy ride if not handled right but I do think some people are making too much out of it. Even after leaving the EU, the UK is likely to have a close relationship with the EU and that's partially because of the close proximity. Over time it may even be almost as if the UK were still a part of the EU except that the UK government will now have more control over local policies. There's even a small to moderate possibility that the UK may rejoin the EU many years down the road, IMO.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Alot of this tit for tat arguements that keeps getting thrown at leavers for voting the way they did is ridiculous. The EU are not perfect and I personally do not think we'd be stronger together with the EU. We'd be stronger with our own independent trade deals that the UK is in control of, the UK is not in control of the trade deals the EU has. Regarding the environment other EU countries are as bad if not worse than the UK. We'd still be under the Paris agreement when we leave the EU as we have no intention of leaving it. Yes we need to make improvements but don't other countries to? As for the fines other countries got fined to. On the topic of the open skies if Ireland want to cut of their noses to spite their faces by banning flights from the UK after Brexit they will have to find an alternative mode of transporting goods to their country which will increase food and product prices in Ireland. All the food and products they sell from the EU currently comes through the UK to Ireland. They will have sudden shortages of supplies if they decide to stick to their threats of banning flights from the UK over their air space and of course there is the issue of people travelling to Ireland to fly on to onward destinations, they will simply avoid Ireland hence a knock on tourism to Ireland. But hey other EU countries keep making empty threats Merkel uturned tonight on her threat yesterday. I think other EU countries are acting silly some times and not taking the negotiations seriously.
> 
> *Note when I say Ireland I mean the republic not the North as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.


Talking about the UK being able to make independent trade deals after Brexit, you might like to listen to this June 2017 BBC Interview with the Hungarian Foreign Minister


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Talking about the UK being able to make independent trade deals after Brexit, you might like to listen to this June 2017 BBC Interview with the Hungarian Foreign Minister


I listened to the interview and I wonder how fair and balanced the negotiations actually are. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the negitiating room. It seems IMO that the EU want more and more and want the UK to do all the manoveuring yet don't want to give themselves. I wonder what the Hungarian Foriegn Minister would make of things right now?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> We'd be stronger with our own independent trade deals that the UK is in control of, the UK is not in control of the trade deals the EU has.


I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind this statement.

It seems to me that trade deals are the result of negotiations between the two parties. No-one is therefore 'in control' though one side usually has more economic clout than the other and will therefore be able to dictate the terms to some extent.

The EU has considerably more economic clout than the UK, largely because it offers a market of 450,000,000 consumers. So personally I don't see how we can improve on the deals which the EU has already negotiated (with our input) with dozens of other countries, or strike better ones with those countries where negotiations are yet to conclude.

But I may be missing something, so what makes you think we can negotiate better deals on our own?


----------



## stockwellcat.

It seems to me that the EU don't want competition on there doorstep. I think they know deep down that we could strike free trade deals they have been struggling to strike themselves with for example America, India, Australia, China etc. I did say examples as I know there are certain things to overcome. It does not necessarily mean the UK would have to lower its current standards on products and goods that the EU has set. I think the EU are freightened they won't be the first to strike these trade deals they have been negotiating over for along time.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> It seems to me that the EU don't want competition on there doorstep. I think they know deep down that we could strike free trade deals they have been struggling to strike themselves with for example America, India, Australia, China etc. I did say examples as I know there are certain things to overcome. It does not necessarily mena the UK would have to lower its current standards on products and goods that the EU has set. I think the EU are freightened they won't be the first to strike these trade deals they have been negotiating over for along time.


I'm sorry, but that made me laugh


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It seems to me that the EU don't want competition on there doorstep. I think they know deep down that we could strike free trade deals they have been struggling to strike themselves with for example America, India, Australia, China etc. I did say examples as I know there are certain things to overcome. It does not necessarily mena the UK would have to lower its current standards on products and goods that the EU has set. I think the EU are freightened they won't be the first to strike these trade deals they have been negotiating over for along time.


Again, even if the UK can negotiate a new trade deal quicker than the EU - which I certainly think is likely - I can't see why the EU would be frightened of that. We are a fifth the size of the EU, so the amount of trade we conduct with other countries won't affect it very much and it certainly wouldn't stop them from negotiating their own, and probably better deal, because of their size.

(Incidentally I posted a map a few pages back showing the free trade deals the EU (& therefore the UK) already has with most African countries.


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> I'm a bit of an outside observer of this and I have rarely commented about brexit since the vote first happened. Leaving the EU could potentially be a bumpy ride if not handled right but I do think some people are making too much out of it. Even after leaving the EU, the UK is likely to have a close relationship with the EU and that's partially because of the close proximity. Over time it may even be almost as if the UK were still a part of the EU except that the UK government will now have more control over local policies. There's even a small to moderate possibility that the UK may rejoin the EU many years down the road, IMO.


Not if you live in Nothern Ireland or Gibraltar, then such sanguine approach is more difficult to sustain...


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Talking about the UK being able to make independent trade deals after Brexit, you might like to listen to this June 2017 BBC Interview with the Hungarian Foreign Minister


Interesting interview thanks.  Sometimes it's easy to forget that the Eu isn't the individual countries who are watching this unfold on their behalf.


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> And talk about the pot calling the kettle black???


What.. thought we were talking about the UK governmental environmental record as stockwellcat attempted to pretend it was something to be proud of. He seemed to criticised Germany specifically for being indecided about getting rid of polluting vehicles which was shown to be false. So please tell me how it's pot calling kettle black? Oh you mean:



> https://www.envirotech-online.com/n...court-over-water-pollution-and-nitrates/38868
> 
> https://metamag.org/2018/06/21/germ...es-for-breaking-eu-laws-on-nitrate-pollution/


Put's pay to the leaver's push that Germany runs the EU and does what it wants to doesn't it. Also shows how the EU protects the environment and people's health regardless of who it is. I seem to remember it was a total of 6 countries penalised. No wonder the UK government wants to get away from the ECJ. You know, a method people can use to hold their government to account.



stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are not perfect


Yet nobody has ever claimed they are perfect. It's important we have a voice and are able to influence it's direction as we do not live in isolation. Lots of things, like pollution do not respect borders.



> We'd be stronger with our own independent trade deals that the UK is in control of, the UK is not in control of the trade deals the EU has.


Simply stating it again doesn't make it any more true than the previous times you've stated it. Can you now back that statement up as you have been unable to every time previously. Isn't it amazing how Wallenia, part of Belgium can hold up an EU trade deal to get terms changed when there is something they don't agree with yet apparantly the UK cannot. Let's see 35 advanced economies in the world. 27 of which are in the EU. 60+ trade arrangements through the EU more than double that of any other country. Remember that statement by Sir Martin Donnelly, who was the permanent secretary at the Department of International Trade, you know an expert, not a politician. "...Leaving the EU in the hope of building better trading relationships elsewhere is like giving up a lavish dinner now in the hope of a packet of crisps later...".



> As for the fines other countries got fined to


Which shows the EU works to protect the environment despite individual governmental failures.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Oh you Isn't it amazing how Wallenia, part of Belgium can hold up an EU trade deal to get terms changed when there is something they don't agree with yet apparantly the UK cannot.


Wallonia was ignored in the end though wasn't it as Canada said to the EU to accept the deal on the table or they are walking away. Remember. In the end Wallonia didn't achieve anything as Canada was prepared to walk away nothing was changed except the deal was signed. Wallonia deeply embarrased the EU. Read the articles below.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...rade-talks-declaring-a-deal-impossible-a/amp/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-and-canada-sign-ceta-long-awaited-free-trade-agreement-a7387551.html?amp

This demonstrates that the EU is difficult in forming free trade deals with (snippet out of first link above)










CETA could well have been the EU's last free trade deal after the performance put on by the EU. The whole world watched what happened.


----------



## Elles

The U.K. will probably be able to make faster deals, because it’s not as slow as the Eu and small areas of Belgium won’t be able to hold it up. It can be a problem if you’re too big and too many individuals have a say. Getting them to agree can be a long, slow process. It shouldn’t be up to the Eu to protect us and the environment.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Wallonia was ignored in the end though wasn't it as Canada said to the EU to accept the deal on the table or they are walking away.


Actually no, they weren't ignored if you look at the facts. There was a 4 page addition to the treaty after a compromise was worked out and accepted by Wallonia. The Walloon minister-president publically stated "Wallonia is extremely happy that our demands have been heard". He also stated he was "sorry for our European partners and for the Canadians, but what we managed to get here is important not just for Wallonians, but for all Europeans". Does that sound like someone who was ignored?



Elles said:


> The U.K. will probably be able to make faster deals, because it's not as slow as the Eu and small areas of Belgium won't be able to hold it up. It can be a problem if you're too big and too many individuals have a say. Getting them to agree can be a long, slow process.


How is it then that the EU has more trade arrangements than any single country if they take so much longer?



> It shouldn't be up to the Eu to protect us and the environment.


Yet as has been demonstrated, not only in the UK, it certainly helps and pushes things forward. We can wish for a lot of things which do not match up to reality.


----------



## DogLover1981

cheekyscrip said:


> Not if you live in Nothern Ireland or Gibraltar, then such sanguine approach is more difficult to sustain...


Northern Ireland is definitely an area of concern. The only options I see are either putting customs and an official border up between Northern Ireland and Ireland or putting customs between Northern Ireland and the mainland UK or even possibly both. That could potentially cause some tensions in Northern Ireland but I hope it doesn't.


----------



## Goblin

DogLover1981 said:


> Northern Ireland is definitely an area of concern. The only options I see are either putting customs and an official border up between Northern Ireland and Ireland or putting customs between Northern Ireland and the mainland UK or even possibly both. That could potentially cause some tensions in Northern Ireland but I hope it doesn't.


Any "hard border" on Ireland will cause additional tensions due to the breaking of the Good Friday Agreement. Border in the "sea" is the obvious solution but is one of May's red lines. It's not simply the land border between Ireland and NI however. There are also issues such as fishing boundaries which are likely to cause tension. An example is Lough Foyle which both the UK and Ireland claim.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually no, they weren't ignored if you look at the facts. There was a 4 page addition to the treaty after a compromise was worked out and accepted by Wallonia. The Walloon minister-president publically stated "Wallonia is extremely happy that our demands have been heard". He also stated he was "sorry for our European partners and for the Canadians, but what we managed to get here is important not just for Wallonians, but for all Europeans". Does that sound like someone who was ignored?
> 
> How is it then that the EU has more trade arrangements than any single country if they take so much longer?
> 
> Yet as has been demonstrated, not only in the UK, it certainly helps and pushes things forward. We can wish for a lot of things which do not match up to reality.


I think you may find the CETA deal is not done and dusted.










Italy is set to reject CETA in their own Parliament. They are not prepared to ratify it.

Article snippet by the way is from the Guardian in July 2018.

More drama ahead with CETA. Remember the world is watching the EU with this and this could have rammification on potential future free trade deals with the EU that they wish to strike in the future.

Americas negotiations with the EU are dead in the water and have been since Obama.


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## Elles

Are these trade deals good for us? I mean for the average man and the country as a whole, not just big business. We seem to be assuming that free trade between specific countries is a good thing, but is it always? Aren’t there usually strings attached too? What about globally? What is the impact globally?


----------



## cheekyscrip

DogLover1981 said:


> Northern Ireland is definitely an area of concern. The only options I see are either putting customs and an official border up between Northern Ireland and Ireland or putting customs between Northern Ireland and the mainland UK or even possibly both. That could potentially cause some tensions in Northern Ireland but I hope it doesn't.


What about us in Gibraltar- when Spain will make crossing the frontier very difficult and you know we live off tourism, financial services etc... 
How about any supplies? Back to the times of Franco?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Regarding Trade Deals. Let's see who has said they would like to trade with the UK when we have left the EU:

*USA* - As soon as possible. The UK is having ongoing talks with the USA so who says these talks aren't about trade and the type of deal we want? You don't know as it isn't in the public spotlight. You nor I know if a deal is sat waiting to be signed. The President has made it publically known he does not want to trade with large trading blocks but instead individual countries hence now he wants out of the NAFTA deal and have individual trade deals with Mexico and Canada.
*America *- Mexico etc want to trade with the UK.
*Canada* - The UK is having ongoing talks with Canada. Canada wants a simple straight forward trade deal when the UK leaves the EU.
*Australia* - The UK is having ongoing talks with Australia. Australia want to trade with the UK. Turnball wants trade with the UK in preference to the EU even though the EU may be making noise they are starting to having talks.
*New Zealand* - Wants to trade with the UK when the UK leaves the EU
*Africa* - Seems pretty obvious as it has been all over the news.
*China *- The UK is in ongoing talks with China . China wants a trade deal with the UK.
*Saudi Arabia *- The UK is in talks with Saudi Arabia about future trade. I am assuming for oil as this region is rich in this.
*Pakistan *- Have expressed they would like to trade with the UK when it leaves the EU.
*India* - Have expressed they would like to trade with the UK when it leaves the EU.
The UK has been in talks with many countries since article 50 was triggered about securing trade deals after Brexit and have no doubt discussed the type of trade deal we want with them. I bet there are trade deals being drafted in the background ready to be signed when the UK leaves the EU. You wouldn't know.

The EU seem to be trying to get the UK to crash out of the EU as some form of punnishment by rejecting everything put forward to them. But crashing out of the EU won't be the end of the world.


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## Happy Paws2

Maybe, but talks will have to take place and how much will it cost to deal with these countries, no deal will be free.


----------



## stockwellcat.

How do you know that hasn't already been discussed behind the scenes? Nobody would know. Isn't this the job of the International Trade Department?

The EU has only just started talking about a trading with Australia and New Zealand but the UK has been talking to both since 2016 after the International Trade Department was setup. Who know's if the UK and New Zealand etc have already explained what and how they want to trade and have drawn up a draft deal waiting to be ratified and signed after Brexit? You wouldn't know.

The difference between the UK trading independently instead of with the EU is that the UK would not have 27 other countries to get permission from and all those sub districts in Brussels. The UK can make it's own independently made decisions and trade with whom it wants to trade with.

We'd be better off on our own as the better off together thing doesn't do it for me, we tried that with the EU. This doesn't mean the UK would have to drop any current standards handed to us by the EU but could improve on them making it better for us. The UK could improve environmental welfare standards, animal welfare standards and making things alot better for our country, pets and animals. If you try to change anything in the EU it can take decades as you have to get all 27 countries and all of Brussels sub districts to approve. The UK out of the EU can move faster doing things whilst protecting existing environmental and animal welfare laws and agriculture laws in the UK.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> How do you know that hasn't already been discussed behind the scenes? Nobody would know. Isn't this the job of the International Trade Department?
> 
> The EU has only just started talking about a trading with Australia and New Zealand but the UK has been talking to both since 2016 after the International Trade Department was setup. Who know's if the UK and New Zealand etc have already explained what and how they want to trade and have drawn up a draft deal waiting to be ratified and signed after Brexit? You wouldn't know.
> 
> The difference between the UK trading independently instead of with the EU is that the UK would not have 27 other countries to get permission from and all those sub districts in Brussels. The UK can make it's own independently made decisions and trade with whom it wants to trade with.
> 
> We'd be better off on our own as the better off together thing doesn't do it for me, we tried that with the EU. This doesn't mean the UK would have to drop any current standards handed to us by the EU but could improve on them making it better for us. The UK could improve environmental welfare standards, animal welfare standards and making things alot better for our country, pets and animals. If you try to change anything in the EU it can take decades as you have to get all 27 countries and all of Brussels sub districts to approve. The UK out of the EU can move faster doing things whilst protecting existing environmental and animal welfare laws and agriculture laws in the UK.


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## kimthecat

@stockwellcat <through tannoy> STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD ! STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD !  :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...nt-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat <through tannoy> STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD ! STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD !  :Hilarious


<Through loud speaker> I will step back after the next comment. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...nt-solve-our-problems-says-Boris-Johnson.html
> View attachment 367217


In all seriousness who pays any attention to him now he is on the back benches. He's probably right though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Now I step back @kimthecat


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> <Through loud speaker> Why? :Hilarious


Sorry i meant loud hailer , like the police use !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Sorry i meant loud hailer , like the police use !


:Hilarious


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## kimthecat

Boris is a threat , he might be on the back benches for now but he is biding his time. This was mentioned on the BBC, something like this . If an agreement cant be reached , it will create a leadership crisis and maybe then another GE .


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I listened to the interview and I wonder how fair and balanced the negotiations actually are. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the negitiating room. It seems IMO that the EU want more and more and want the UK to do all the manoveuring yet don't want to give themselves. I wonder what the Hungarian Foriegn Minister would make of things right now?


The Hungarian Government maintains exactly the same position that it did a year ago as you'll read from this joint press conference earlier this year.

http://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-o...ain-is-one-of-hungary-s-most-important-allies

You might also like to read this research paper by Aston University on behalf of the V4

http://www.aston.ac.uk/lss/research...tre-europe/projects-grants/brexit-and-the-v4/


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Are these trade deals good for us?


Like a lot of things it depends on the type of deal. That's where negotiating power comes in which is basically based on population. More population (how many people the other side are trying to sell to), the stronger. It's why 400 million is in a stronger negotiation position than 65million. Protection of your own economy and products is normally high on the list of requirements.. Ensuring standards etc is another. It's actually not simply about tariffs. No trade deal can be better than a bad trade deal.

Let's see, somehow we go from:







To nothing and, according to some, it's great as we can make our own trade deals. Remember, an awful lot of this isn't about tariffs. It's about reducing costs due to red tape. It's about being able to move products through ports, not simply Dover with the minimum amount of hassle and delay. It's about also about ensuring standards.



stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding Trade Deals. Let's see who has said they would like to trade with the UK when we have left the EU


Sill peddling this.. stockwellcat. Let's take Australia as an example. You do realise don't you that Australia is fairly open even without a trade deal. It's in Australia's interests to actually take advantage of the UK's weakness and desparation before a more measured british government asks.. "what are the advantages for us". Australia will ask the UK to remove its tariffs on cane sugar and red meat, address regulatory barriers and provide more visas for Australian business people for a start. This will probably include "hormone beef". If the UK agrees with Australia, it will be hard to argue against it elsewhere like when America asks for the same. Reality is trade deal negotiations aren't about cooperation between 2 countries, it's about getting your trade interests into a better position whilst at the same time protecting yourself and what your country produces. UK has lower negotiating power and a hint of desparation after brexit. Remember a little incident where Wilbur Ross, US Secretary of Commerce actually encourage other countries to exploit the ""God-given opportunity" to steal business from the U.K. Well that shows what our "closest friend" thinks of brexit.



> The EU seem to be trying to get the UK to crash out of the EU as some form of punnishment by rejecting everything put forward to them. But crashing out of the EU won't be the end of the world.


This is the biggest joke of the whole thing. I seem to remember from the start many stated as soon as anything goes badly leavers will blame the EU for their own idiocy. After all brexit was about scapegoating the EU for the UK's problems. Why change now. So tell me, does "you cannot have your cake and eat it" ring any bells as a phrase? It was stated again and again from the EU before the referendum. It was clearly stated before the referendum that there were things the EU was not going to comprimise on. Now apparantly because they are sticking to it "it's some form of punishment".

No it will not be the end of the world.. It is be harmful but then it's been shown some leaver's really don't care about harming people. After all, it's the principle of the matter, not facts which matter. Who cares if they cannot show advantages.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Again, even if the UK can negotiate a new trade deal quicker than the EU - which I certainly think is likely - I can't see why the EU would be frightened of that. We are a fifth the size of the EU, so the amount of trade we conduct with other countries won't affect it very much and it certainly wouldn't stop them from negotiating their own, and probably better deal, because of their size.
> 
> (Incidentally I posted a map a few pages back showing the free trade deals the EU (& therefore the UK) already has with most African countries.


You might like to see this then. It's a breakdown of all the free trade negotiations and agreement the EU has throughout the world.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreements/

Interestingly enough whilst it might have working agreements with loads of countries, it's still negotiating with all the major ones like India, Canada and the US and in some cases has been doing since 2007, which was the point the Hungarian Foreign Minister made in June 2016


----------



## Goblin




----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Like a lot of things it depends on the type of deal. That's where negotiating power comes in which is basically based on population. More population (how many people the other side are trying to sell to), the stronger. It's why 400 million is in a stronger negotiation position than 65million. Protection of your own economy and products is normally high on the list of requirements.. Ensuring standards etc is another. It's actually not simply about tariffs. No trade deal can be better than a bad trade deal.
> 
> Let's see, somehow we go from:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To nothing and, according to some, it's great as we can make our own trade deals. Remember, an awful lot of this isn't about tariffs. It's about reducing costs due to red tape. It's about being able to move products through ports, not simply Dover with the minimum amount of hassle and delay. It's about also about ensuring standards.
> 
> Sill peddling this.. stockwellcat. Let's take Australia as an example. You do realise don't you that Australia is fairly open even without a trade deal. It's in Australia's interests to actually take advantage of the UK's weakness and desparation before a more measured british government asks.. "what are the advantages for us". Australia will ask the UK to remove its tariffs on cane sugar and red meat, address regulatory barriers and provide more visas for Australian business people for a start. This will probably include "hormone beef". If the UK agrees with Australia, it will be hard to argue against it elsewhere like when America asks for the same. Reality is trade deal negotiations aren't about cooperation between 2 countries, it's about getting your trade interests into a better position whilst at the same time protecting yourself and what your country produces. UK has lower negotiating power and a hint of desparation after brexit. Remember a little incident where Wilbur Ross, US Secretary of Commerce actually encourage other countries to exploit the ""God-given opportunity" to steal business from the U.K. Well that shows what our "closest friend" thinks of brexit.
> 
> This is the biggest joke of the whole thing. I seem to remember from the start many stated as soon as anything goes badly leavers will blame the EU for their own idiocy. After all brexit was about scapegoating the EU for the UK's problems. Why change now. So tell me, does "you cannot have your cake and eat it" ring any bells as a phrase? It was stated again and again from the EU before the referendum. It was clearly stated before the referendum that there were things the EU was not going to comprimise on. Now apparantly because they are sticking to it "it's some form of punishment".
> 
> No it will not be the end of the world.. It is be harmful but then it's been shown some leaver's really don't care about harming people. After all, it's the principle of the matter, not facts which matter. Who cares if they cannot show advantages.


Yes we all know your agressive opinion towards leavers. Again you are allowed your opinion I am allowed mine. Now I am not replying to you past this post as not to let this thread go on a downward spiral. But I have highlighted some advantages and you call it peddalling yet you do the same but because I don't agree with you your tone becomes agressive. No one voted to harm anyone this is only your opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-drug-companies-medicines-stockpiling-brexit


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes we all know your agressive opinion towards leavers. Again you are allowed your opinion I am allowed mine.


Tell me how is trade from far away better than trade closer to home? Simply that fact, distance, will damage UK trade. Why is it that even the government's own impact documents show harm to the UK, no matter what form of brexit is finalised? In fact can you provide any assessments which show the UK better off as so far you haven't shown any? Oh you've parroted politicians and the leave campaign well, those where the actual reality is not backed up by anything, if not already proven to be false. Oh that's right, it's your opinion. Then again you've already stated you made your mind up before the referendum, regardless of anything said. I do agree, you are entitled to your opinion. Don't try to pretend you can justify it when brexit is already causing damage including to individuals now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just a thought, large deals with the NZ., Australia, Canada and the US, isn't that going to increase our carbon footprint, so that's a good thing is it


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 367245
> View attachment 367246
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-drug-companies-medicines-stockpiling-brexit


Surprise. Guardian scaremongering again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Yawn!

Nothing new happening then.

You aren't going to change Brexit on petforums but I understand it must be important to you so I will leave you to it so you can carry on scaring each other.

I will just wait and see what happens in the real world which is alot different than what is being spread around online.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The Hungarian Government maintains exactly the same position that it did a year ago as you'll read from this joint press conference earlier this year.
> 
> http://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-o...ain-is-one-of-hungary-s-most-important-allies
> 
> You might also like to read this research paper by Aston University on behalf of the V4
> 
> http://www.aston.ac.uk/lss/research...tre-europe/projects-grants/brexit-and-the-v4/


On the subject of Hungary. One of the reasons I voted remain was out of fear we would see a rise in right wing populism & the hatred that brings. I don't want my country cosying up to the likes of Trump & Orban. Right wing populist governments are dangerous (not only for minorities but for the masses, and for the planet ) & when we leave thats what we will be stuck with - an even more extreme right wing populist government. The EU is our is our best defence against the rise of the hard right.
_

_
*Jessica Simor QC*‏ 
_"Being a member of the EU means co-operation and solidarity; it is incompatible with chauvinism and economic nationalism, such as arose in the inter-war years and is currently being stoked by populist leader in Hungary, Poland, Italy and the UK"_. https://www.euractiv.com/section/fu...no-longer-want-to-pay-for-poland-and-hungary/


----------



## Jesthar

Exciting times! The French company that has been given the job of producing the new blue British passports has just released a picture of the proposed design...










Ni!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Surprise. Guardian scaremongering again.


Do you think the media should not report any information by the government regarding Brexit? As far as I can tell the guardian are reporting what was said by the health secretary:

_nterviewed on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Hancock did not disclose how much the initiative would cost. But he revealed that the government was prepared to compensate pharmaceutical companies for the extra costs involved._

_"The medicine delivery to the hospitals should continue unhindered," he said. "Their existing contracts need to be fulfilled. The task is for the pharmaceutical companies to ensure that enough supplies are available to ensure that can happen. That means stockpiling in the case of medicines that come over the land border but it also means, in some cases, being prepared if necessary to switch the supply from land to air, so that we can fly in, for instance, the very short shelf-life medicines."_

_Asked if the government was prepared to pay the extra costs involved, Hancock said: "We are talking to pharmaceutical industry about what extra costs the government will cover."_

Why do you consider this article scaremongering?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Surprise. Guardian scaremongering again.


 Please look objectively at the evidence, at the realities of what no deal really means. Listen to what government ministers are saying themselves. What are you going to tell yourself if we crash out and everything you were warned about comes to pass? You wont be able to dismiss it all as scaremongering then.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You might like to see this then. It's a breakdown of all the free trade negotiations and agreement the EU has throughout the world.
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreements/
> 
> Interestingly enough whilst it might have working agreements with loads of countries, it's still negotiating with all the major ones like India, Canada and the US and in some cases has been doing since 2007, which was the point the Hungarian Foreign Minister made in June 2016


I have looked at that before, and it is impressive how many deals we already have through the EU. Hopefully we will be able to 'cut & paste' the existing deals, because regardless of the greater nimbleness of a single country negotiating rather than 28, it still takes time. It also takes experienced personnel, with which we're not exactly blessed.

The *fact* is that we already have trade deals with most of the countries mentioned by those who are claiming big trade advantages after Brexit, and we are hoping to maintain them. We aren't in detailed negotiations because a) it's illegal b) we haven't got the capabilities and c) we're trying to get a good deal with the EU and it would be monumentally stupid to be breaking their rules behind their back and hoping they don't find out.

The fact that deals between the big players - EU / US / China / (India) - are proving difficult shows what happens when the big beasts lock horns. When faced with smaller countries - like the UK - the big beasts beat them up. You only have to listen to Trump to imagine how negotiations would go with the US! It's why he wants bilateral agreements; he knows he can bully his way to a win.

I'm afraid that, given what we have with and through the EU, the idea that there will be an economic benefit to the UK through leaving and renegotiating is a complete nonsense.

That's why the Tory Brexiteers are talking in jingoistic terms about Britain being a world leader in a glorious free trade future, a beacon for the rest of the world to follow, etc etc. It's an appeal to tribal instinct, and it needs to be because there are no facts, and certainly no figures, to back it up.


----------



## Elles

Of course we aren’t being manipulated at all, our government wouldn’t do that. In the event of no deal with the European Union, all planes will immediately be grounded and ports closed. Nothing in or out, as the Eu and member countries close off all access to the U.K. It’s ok though, because we know this will happen and are stockpiling medicines. Are you sure you still want to leave? We keep predicting riots and civil unrest, can’t we just have another referendum and stay in this time? We didn’t think about any of this, the referendum was just to shut you up, we didn’t think you’d actually go for it. 

And from Mrs May ‘there will be no second referendum’ until on one of my walks the pollsters phone me to let me know it should be safe to do it now. Of course so long as some change their mind the other way, the risk is too great and despite its best efforts the government aren’t doing quite badly enough yet. Full points for trying though. They’ve managed to get most of the brexiteers in parliament against their deals, just need the people now.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> On the topic of the open skies if Ireland want to cut of their noses to spite their faces by banning flights from the UK after Brexit they will have to find an alternative mode of transporting goods to their country which will increase food and product prices in Ireland. ... I think other EU countries are acting silly some times and not taking the negotiations seriously.


The problem comes if we leave with No Deal.

Aviation must follow the rules. If the UK is not signed up to those rules - as it would not be the day after a No Deal Brexit - then we would not be allowed to fly planes in EU airspace. And if we did, those flights would be illegal, and the airlines would not be insured. Would any airline risk that? Of course not.

Ah - the leavers say - but there would be an interim arrangement while we sorted things out. And the point about that, which is very likely, is that it is not No Deal. It is a Deal. That's what an interim arrangement is. And such arrangements take time to identify, negotiate, agree and implement in a way that is legally watertight.

So in the event of No Deal, it isn't the EU being silly, or Ireland cutting their nose off. They would have no choice whatsoever, unless some sort of Deal is put in place.

It's why I asked on one of these threads what was meant by the No Deal that some posters were advocating. I wasn't being as obtuse as the answers suggested.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Surprise. Guardian scaremongering again.


I'm confused.

I thought Matt Hancock was a Conservative Health Secretary, not a Guardian journalist......


----------



## noushka05

Project reality!

*Jay Rayner*‏Verified account @jayrayner1 2h2 hours ago
Jay Rayner Retweeted Faisal Islam
_
THis is how the Govt is approaching the prospect of a no deal Brexit, by classifying
it as an emergency akin to major floods or terror outbreaks but with one key difference. _

WE VOTED FOR IT.

#Operation Yellowhammer

_The Civil Contingencies Secretariat - the Government's emergency planning department created in 2001 for floods/ terror/ foot & mouth - has been invoked for No Deal planning "Operation Yellowhammer" acc to document snapped by Steve Ba_ck


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Exciting times! The French company that has been given the job of producing the new blue British passports has just released a picture of the proposed design...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ni!


What does Ni mean ?


----------



## Elles

How funny. I’m sorry, but this is too much. What next? Leaflets through the door? An animated infomercial? It must be really serious, the home office held a 2 day workshop. Of course there will be some kind of temporary impact if we leave the Eu with no deal, isn’t it obvious?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Hey, I fully understand what austerity is doing - I work for a local authority and can see it first hand. But I'm pretty sure Brexit isn't the cause - a change in Government would change austerity measures (and don't forget I'm a bit of a capitalist, but I disagree with what the tories are doing with regards austerity and outsourcing).
> 
> But I do think the first inklings of push back against outsourcing and joint ventures are starting to happen on the ground. We have a joint venture that I've been involved with and we've bought £6m worth of services back in house this year. Don't get me wrong, it cost us short term (which is why local authorities should never ever be involved in writing contracts) but long term it's better for the people we are providing the services for and ultimately will actually cost less.
> 
> Please don't mention George :Vomit or Lush if you are talking about that rank soap shop :Vomit. I physically can't breathe if I get anywhere near those places :Wacky


On the subject of austerity, someone makes this excellent observation.

*Operation* *Yellowhammer*

_
The Government's plan to smash it's spending commitments which gives a mockery to years of austerity - what exactly did we suffer for? _
_

._


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> How funny. I'm sorry, but this is too much. What next? Leaflets through the door? An animated infomercial? It must be really serious, the home office held a 2 day workshop. Of course there will be some kind of temporary impact if we leave the Eu with no deal, isn't it obvious?


Temporary impact - even Mogg said it could be 50 yrs before we feel the benefits. The impact of no deal will be long term & disastrous. Have you thought how this will affect people already struggling to get by? Or people who need medicines? Ireland? Gibraltar? Thousands of businesses? The haulage industry? People who live in Kent? As this is a pet forum, the veterinary industry?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45410344


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Temporary impact - even Mogg said it could be 50 yrs before we feel the benefits. The impact of no deal will be long term & disastrous. Have you thought how this will affect people already struggling to get by? Or people who need medicines? Ireland? Gibraltar? Thousands of businesses? The haulage industry? People who live in Kent? As this is a pet forum, the veterinary industry?


Or what about all those pet owners left jobless and their poor animals ?

Austerity means basically a very large number of homeless animals and much fewer homes for them.

Anyone on this forum who voted Leave is ready to step in and adopt?
In case of medicine shortages do you think vet clinics will be a priority?

Does Yellowhammer provide for this?

What about funds for animal charities? Shelters?

Collateral damage for the sake of Brexit?


----------



## kimthecat

Yer know , I'm getting a sense the thread is deteriorating . just a tad !!
Im out . Enjoy yourselves.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> What does Ni mean ?


Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference


 oh yeah ! Wasn't sure if it was a typo .


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> oh yeah ! Wasn't sure if it was a typo .


Nope - cross reference with the passport pic


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Nope - cross reference with the passport pic


So you don't like the "new " passport then


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> So you don't like the "new " passport then


Couldn't give a stuff about the colour of the passport. I just like the motto they've picked!


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Couldn't give a stuff about the colour of the passport. I just like the motto they've picked!


:Hilarious :Hilarious Ive just read the motto . The pennys dropped !  I should wear my reading glasses !


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> No trade deal can be better than a bad trade deal.
> ​


​
So you _*are *_actually Theresa May.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> So you _*are *_actually Theresa May.


Well no actually. In case you missed it, here we are talking about trade deals which is the reality. Even by the government's own assessment, the reality about leaving the EU is that no deal is the worst possible option. Next up is virtually any deal and finally the best possible option is not to leave at all.


----------



## KittenKong

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/philip-hammond-no-deal-brexit-austerity-cuts-public-spending/


----------



## KittenKong

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/07/i-cr...t-checks-will-put-my-freedom-at-risk-7908698/


----------



## Arnie83

Further to @KittenKong 's bit above, the Times explains it nicely.

Without a deal and transition period the government would be forced to take on and pay for a range of functions at present carried out by Brussels. These include aviation safety, drug assessment and licensing, food safety and environmental protection. The Treasury document states that government departments would be expected to pay for such extra costs in the first instance through "internal prioritisation".

Under the heading HM Treasury objectives it states: "Explain that departments should be raising Yellowhammer costs through the normal channels - through their spending teams for in-year pressures, and in their bids for 19/20 Brexit allocations for spending that year. Their first call should be internal prioritisation."​
I.e. They wouldn't be getting extra money, but would have to divert it from their current plans, which means less for what are seen as. presumably, lower priorities. I have no idea what they might be,

Asked about the document, Philip Hammond, the chancellor, appeared to confirm that departments could not assume that extra Treasury funding would be found over and above day-to-day budgets. "In no-deal circumstances we would have to refocus government priorities so that government was concentrated on the circumstances that we found ourselves in."​
I haven't seen a comment from the Rees-Mogg / IDS wing, but there's only so many times they can shout 'Scaremongering! Everything will be fine!' before people start wondering if they're being entirely honest in their assessments.


----------



## Elles

Seems to me one thing that does need to change, is how countries are able leave the Eu. I would think the member countries might want to look at it in case it’s their turn next.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Seems to me one thing that does need to change, is how countries are able leave the Eu. I would think the member countries might want to look at it in case it's their turn next.


I imagine that the EU hierarchy are quite happy with the enormous mess that has filled the last two years, though I doubt that any other country would approach the negotiations in the same way that we have, with contradictory 'red lines' and still no agreed plan regarding what to ask for!

What changes would you make?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Elles said:


> Seems to me one thing that does need to change, is how countries are able leave the Eu. I would think the member countries might want to look at it in case it's their turn next.[/QUOTE
> How to leave the EU is surely quite simple - just trigger article 50. Doesn't seem to be overly complicated. It is then up to the country leaving not to make a pigs ear of it and there lies the problem!


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Seems to me one thing that does need to change, is how countries are able leave the Eu. I would think the member countries might want to look at it in case it's their turn next.


Why? You mean a government wanting to leave actually should have a real mandate to do so. Perhaps you mean a government wanting to leave should ensure that they actually have a plan going forward. I'll be honest and say I thought the whole reason for May delaying the handing in of article 50 was due to actual thought about the future and that basic, common sense thing called a plan at least her cabinet agreed on. I also expected little things like impact assessments to have been done.

It's actually very simple to leave as can be seen:


> The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.


As can be seen, simple. Only complicated when the country wanting to leave wants to actually also stay in, just doesn't want the responsibilities of being a member. It happens when there's a referendum where leave is not defined.


----------



## Elles

Make it simpler to agree on airspace that kind of thing. It’s not like the U.K. plan on bombing France. And maybe permit some negotiating during the transition, rather than ‘make a deal now or else’. How to make it simpler is not something I’ve given much thought to. I have no influence over it and no expertise in it. We vote in representatives to deal with that kind of thing for us I always thought. :Hilarious

I still suspect that much of the difficulties and the way they’re being reported are a ploy to get us to stay in, or leave but not really. By the time they’re done, we (as in the public) will agree to anything, just to get something done I expect.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Seems to me one thing that does need to change, is how countries are able leave the Eu. I would think the member countries might want to look at it in case it's their turn next.


You might like to listen to this interview with Yanis Varoufakis who was the Greek Finance Minister and chief negotiator to the EU in 2015 at the time of the Greek crisis.






Dons tin hat and retreats to the nearest bunker!


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> You might like to listen to this interview with Yanis Varoufakis who was the Greek Finance Minister and chief negotiator to the EU in 2015 at the time of the Greek crisis.


You'll notice nothing he has stated actually conflicts with the EU's position all the way through, even before the referendum. Can be summed up with UK "cannot cherry pick". UK, outside the EU will be treated as a 3rd country. Knowing that, isn't it what those who voted leave voted for? WEll no, actually as the leave campaign promised that the EU would fold and the UK could have that cherry, after all "they need us more than we need them". How can leaver's complain when the EU sticks to what they stated all along? Either you are in the EU or you are out of the EU how can that not be simpler? Of course even then there are options such as the Norway option. I doubt if anyone seriously should have expected another EU/Swiss option with 50+ separate treaties constantly needing to be updated.

I fully agree with the suggestion in the video about the Norway option being a good starting point. Then again can you imagine the uproar from brexit hardliners. No different to now.

EU has several priorities during negotiations. the EU, it's members and it's population. No different than anything the UK will come across when trying to make any trade deal. Remember this https://www.businessinsider.de/davi...-politics-before-prosperity-2017-11?r=UK&IR=T ? German Businesses recognised from the start that the EU needs to hold on to it's core principles allowing them to prosper far more than any damage brexit may cause them.

Key fact here: It's not the EU punishing the UK, the UK left knowing the terms of leaving.

Leaving was always going to be 2 phase negotiation. Read article 50, legally it is. Withdrawing is separate to any subsequent trade arrangement. The UK government has pretended they are together. That's why however many billion was agreed for leaving will still be paid even on a no deal brexit. That was part of the withdrawal agreement.


----------



## cheekyscrip

No. They simply don't get it.


Goblin said:


> You'll notice nothing he has stated actually conflicts with the EU's position all the way through, even before the referendum. Can be summed up with UK "cannot cherry pick". UK, outside the EU will be treated as a 3rd country. Knowing that, isn't it what those who voted leave voted for? WEll no, actually as the leave campaign promised that the EU would fold and the UK could have that cherry, after all "they need us more than we need them". How can leaver's complain when the EU sticks to what they stated all along? Either you are in the EU or you are out of the EU how can that not be simpler? Of course even then there are options such as the Norway option. I doubt if anyone seriously should have expected another EU/Swiss option with 50+ separate treaties constantly needing to be updated.
> 
> I fully agree with the suggestion in the video about the Norway option being a good starting point. Then again can you imagine the uproar from brexit hardliners. No different to now.
> 
> EU has several priorities during negotiations. the EU, it's members and it's population. No different than anything the UK will come across when trying to make any trade deal. Remember this https://www.businessinsider.de/davi...-politics-before-prosperity-2017-11?r=UK&IR=T ? German Businesses recognised from the start that the EU needs to hold on to it's core principles allowing them to prosper far more than any damage brexit may cause them.
> 
> Key fact here: It's not the EU punishing the UK, the UK left knowing the terms of leaving.
> 
> Leaving was always going to be 2 phase negotiation. Read article 50, legally it is. Withdrawing is separate to any subsequent trade arrangement. The UK government has pretended they are together. That's why however many billion was agreed for leaving will still be paid even on a no deal brexit. That was part of the withdrawal agreement.


,


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Make it simpler to agree on airspace that kind of thing. It's not like the U.K. plan on bombing France.


Comes down to when leaving, you leave all the treaties. That means open skies as well as things like the EU aviation safety certification agency EASA. Trouble is open skies isn't simple. There are rules which state majority ownership must be held within EU countries. So if the majority of an airline is held in the UK they are no longer eligible to be part of open skies. Same goes for EASA, the rules/standards are defined by the EU parliament. According to leaver's abiding by rules defined elsewhere means we've lost our sovereignty. They ignore the fact that's what the WTO is doing. So tell me, why should the EU change rules for the UK which is leaving?



> I still suspect that much of the difficulties and the way they're being reported are a ploy to get us to stay in, or leave but not really. By the time they're done, we (as in the public) will agree to anything, just to get something done I expect.


Biggest hurdle is Ireland as far as I can see. UK government has promised things which simply are mutually exclusive to one another. No border but somehow they control the border. No border but different rules on either side of it including things like product standards. It's complicated by WTO "preferred nation" rules. Put simply if Ireland gets preferential treatment, all other countries in the WTO should expect the same. It's one of the fundamentals of the WTO.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/philip-hammond-no-deal-brexit-austerity-cuts-public-spending/
> 
> View attachment 367379
> View attachment 367380


*Philip Hammond: No deal Brexit could mean deeper austerity cuts to public sector*

wow I've been saying we'll get austerity on steroids since after the vote! I'm starting to think maybe I'm psychic :Watching

Bye bye NHS.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> You might like to listen to this interview with Yanis Varoufakis who was the Greek Finance Minister and chief negotiator to the EU in 2015 at the time of the Greek crisis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dons tin hat and retreats to the nearest bunker!


Yanis is fantastic, he is deeply principled and super intelligent. I respect him immensely. Despite what happened with Greece, he urged us *not* to leave the EU. If only leave supporters had listened to him them. His warnings seem almost prophetic now.

Owen Jones interviewed him in 2016 - before the referendum.

*Owen jones*: What do you say to people who say we've got to leave?

*Yanis:* Firstly if brexit wins you're going to end up with Boris Johnson in 10 downing street (Owens reaction is a picture :Hilarious) .....

.....and the TTA people will come to these shores faster than they will under the EU......The left should never lose sight of the history of the 1930s . After 1929 the left failed to create a coalition with other democrats that was necessary to prevent the descent into the abyss of the 1930s. Now I see such an abyss opening up in front of our eyes in the center of Europe today and if it does we're going to unleash very vulgar and brutal ultra right wing forces throughout Europe and very xenophobic tendencies which will be terribly charged by the disintigration of the European Union .................


----------



## Calvine

Satori said:


> So you _*are *_actually Theresa May.


That was Dr Pepper wasn't it? Isn't that why he's no longer with us?


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 23h23 hours ago
This affects my kids and their mother. And many, many other British families. I feel physically sick at the callous attitude of this man.


----------



## noushka05

(via twitter. liked by 45k people)

_Yesterday I had to teach my students, in under 3 hours, what the EU was and why #Brexit was happening. It seemed like an impossible task. 
Then I found this MEP had done it in 2 minutes. _

_This is very important. Please watch and RT._


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Jawdrop:WootRees Mogg annoys me almost as much as Boris. :Rage


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> :Jawdrop:Woot this man annoys me almost as much as Boris. :Rage


To clarify - you mean Jacob Rich-Snob, right HP?

I can't put a *** paper between those two reckless selfservatives eitherompus:Cigar


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> *Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 23h23 hours ago
> This affects my kids and their mother. And many, many other British families. I feel physically sick at the callous attitude of this man.


That doesn't seem to tie in with what we've been told by the UK Ambassador to Hungary.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...tent=immediate


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> *To clarify - you mean Jacob Rich-Snob, right HP? *
> 
> I can't put a *** paper between those two reckless selfservatives eitherompus:Cigar


Yes.... I noticed what I'd done and I've changed it.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> That doesn't seem to tie in with what we've been told by the UK Ambassador to Hungary.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...tent=immediate


Thats Rees Moggs vision, and as Rees Moggs ERG are pulling the governments stings I'd take anything the govt says with a pinch of salt. (Not that you could trust this corrupt set of duplicitous liars before!)


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> That doesn't seem to tie in with what we've been told by the UK Ambassador to Hungary.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...tent=immediate


The actual letter to Andrew Adonis.

_
"I do not believe there should be any special terms for EU migrants"_


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Thats Rees Moggs vision, and as Rees Moggs ERG are pulling the governments stings I'd take anything the govt says with a pinch of salt. (Not that you could trust this corrupt set of duplicitous liars before!)


So you prefer to believe JRM say so than a joint report issued by the EU and the UK?



noushka05 said:


> The actual letter to Andrew Adonis.
> 
> _
> "I do not believe there should be any special terms for EU migrants"_


Did you actually bother to read what was said in the report?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...rderly_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union.pdf


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> So you prefer to believe JRM say so than a joint report issued by the EU and the UK?
> 
> Did you actually bother to read what was said in the report?
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...rderly_withdrawal_from_the_European_Union.pdf


The point I'm making is JRM & his ERG are pulling the governments strings now.

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis 4h4 hours ago
_I'm told on good authority that Mr Raab talks to Rees-Mogg & ERG's Steve Baker 'almost every day' to get his negotiating instructions. 
This is making relations with his civil servants 'virtually impossible' & there are now 'two parallels Brexit negotiating teams'_

Do you really trust this government to keep their word? You ought to check out the '3 million' website @Magyarmum - https://www.the3million.org.uk/


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *Philip Hammond: No deal Brexit could mean deeper austerity cuts to public sector*
> wow I've been saying we'll get austerity on steroids since after the vote! I'm starting to think maybe I'm psychic :Watching
> 
> *Bye bye NHS.*


I think whatever happens in other departments, the NHS will be a top priority for the Tories, mainly - entirely, come to think of it - because the next election depends on them stopping it going under.

What I think they will do is ensure that sufficient money is pumped in to allow them to claim they are looking after it, while in fact doing way too little to stop its inevitable drift towards post-Brexit privatisation.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> So you prefer to believe JRM say so than a joint report issued by the EU and the UK?


JRM is not concerned with the parts of the current 'agreements'. If he can somehow force a No Deal Brexit, then he will quote - perhaps as Prime Minister - that since nothing was agreed until everything was agreed, then in his view foreign nationals are just that, and none will have preferential rights.

I don't like hyperbole, but I think he is a disingenuous and dangerous ideologue, disguised in Savile Row finery and hiding behind a posh accent, long words, and feigned good manners.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I think whatever happens in other departments, the NHS will be a top priority for the Tories, mainly - entirely, come to think of it - because the next election depends on them stopping it going under.
> 
> What I think they will do is ensure that sufficient money is pumped in to allow them to claim they are looking after it, while in fact doing way too little to stop its inevitable drift towards post-Brexit privatisation.


There will be some sort of deception to fool the electorate into voting for them for sure, not convinced it will be an influx of cash though. Either way it will be the end of our much loved NHS. And I'm certain most people did not vote for that.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> There will be some sort of deception to fool the electorate into voting for them for sure, not convinced it will be an influx of cash though. Either way it will be the end of our much loved NHS. *And I'm certain most people did not vote for that.*


I'm sure you're right. And while all those who voted Leave had something in mind, there were probably almost as many reasons and different priorities as there were voters.

Even those who simply wanted to cut ties with all things EU would probably not have considered Open Skies, or the medicine agency, or the Galileo space program etc. And why should / how could they have? No-one knew about them back then.

That's why I am puzzled at the continuing reluctance of people to support a referendum on the negotiated deal. "Is this what you wanted?" doesn't seem to me to be a question that undermines our democracy, and is, rather, exactly what democracy should be.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> JRM is not concerned with the parts of the current 'agreements'. If he can somehow force a No Deal Brexit, then he will quote - perhaps as Prime Minister - that since nothing was agreed until everything was agreed, then in his view foreign nationals are just that, and none will have preferential rights.
> *
> I don't like hyperbole, but I think he is a disingenuous and dangerous ideologue, disguised in Savile Row finery and hiding behind a posh accent, long words, and feigned good manner*s.


I'm reminded of this excellent Matthew Parris article from 2017 warning us about this dangerous man who now wields so much power.

. _*"For the 21st century Conservative Party, Jacob Rees Mogg would be pure hemlock. His manners are perfumed but his opinions are poison"*_


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> That's why I am puzzled at the continuing reluctance of people to support a referendum on the negotiated deal. "Is this what you wanted?" doesn't seem to me to be a question that undermines our democracy, and is, rather, exactly what democracy should be.


This is what I find utterly baffling.


----------



## noushka05

(via twitter)

_I mean, for me, Brexit is quite simple. If you cause a no deal exit, and Insulin runs out, and anything happens to my 7 year old daughter with Type 1 diabetes,
I will tear everything that's left down brick by f****** brick until it's dust.
Quite, quite simple_

Liked
22K


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 23h23 hours ago
> This affects my kids and their mother. And many, many other British families. I feel physically sick at the callous attitude of this man.


----------



## Elles

Is there a legal basis? Rees-Mogg says there’s no legal basis for treating Eu citizens any differently to others. Is this true? I believe it is. Theresa May, however has promised them leave to stay and that nothing will change for them. As did the spin before the referendum. The statements arent contradictory. There is no legal basis, however they can stay and carry on as normal.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 367558


Going on what I've seen a hell of a lot of people dont care how it will affect others. They just want brexit whatever the cost. I don't get it at all.


----------



## noushka05

Via Mike Galsworthy again >>

_This.

This is all you need to know. After 25 years of advocating Brexit, a ££ campaign for Brexit, starting the Brexit process, walking away from their own cabinet Brexit 
plans, the Brexit purists still can't agree on a plan for Brexit. ...

so they'll do some protesting_


----------



## noushka05

*Tom Watson*‏Verified account @tom_watson Sep 6
_It's now time for a Mueller-style inquiry into the conduct of the EU referendum, that also examines the role played by the Russian state._

*Labour's Tom Watson calls for probe into whether Russia 'stole' EU referendum result*

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...to-whether-russia-stole-eu-referendum-result/


----------



## Eeyore

Elles said:


> I don't know why people didn't like the idea of an Eu army. I didn't give it much attention, which is why I didn't know about it. I expect people think the Eu is getting too big for its boots and far removed from what was originally the common market, but that would be just guessing.


In these days we need strong EU to deal with tax havens and big corporations. E.g Apple finally agreed to pay some taxes. 
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/4/16736114/apple-ireland-european-union-order-back-taxes-agreement

EU fighting tax havens 
http://www.internationalinvestment.net/products/tax/ecofin-publishes-final-tax-haven-list/

My questions: Do you really think that EU should be weak and unable to challenge corporations? The other financial powers are US and China at the moment. US has just allowed asbestos back to market. Do you think UK will be better off joining US trade rules? China has polluted it´s air, soil and waters to a limit where people have started to die because of that. Do you think UK will be better off joining Chinese trade rules? Or do you really believe that UK will have more financial power than EU and become a real super power and once it has gained that position, it will lead the fight against tax havens and big corporations, when they are guilty of misconduct (e.g. harm wild life, disrespect basic labour rights, don´t pay taxes)?

For some reason in the recent past, UK hasn´t always wanted to fight tax havens. Do you think that Brexit will change this? And do you think that the tabloid´d owners direct links to tax haven have anything to do with their constant lies about EU pro Brexit? Is that just a coincidence? 
https://www.ft.com/content/4680a384-c2fb-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675

I really think that at the moment ordinary people need EU more than ever. It still is working to make the world better for all, not just for the rich. Often failing, often very slowly, but at least it is trying and making progress. I can´t see Russia, China or US doing anything good for the world at the moment and they are especially harmful for the environment. I choose EU anytime over these countries.


----------



## KittenKong

Scaremongering? You decide....
This came up as a Facebook advertisment.








was


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Via Mike Galsworthy again >>
> 
> _This.
> 
> This is all you need to know. After 25 years of advocating Brexit, a ££ campaign for Brexit, starting the Brexit process, walking away from their own cabinet Brexit
> plans, the Brexit purists still can't agree on a plan for Brexit. ...
> 
> so they'll do some protesting_


What paper is that Noush?

Edit: Found it in The Times, thanks.


----------



## Arnie83

In light of a few recent posts, this isn't great news. Barnier may be sabre-rattling, but it's the first time I've heard anyone specifically address the No Deal deal ...

From Reuters, presumably quoting the transcript of the recent meeting:

"If there is a no deal there is no more discussion. There is no more negotiation. It is over and each side will take its own unilateral contingency measures, and we will take them in such areas as aviation, but this does not mean mini-deals in the case of a no deal," [Barnier] said.​


----------



## Arnie83

@Elles et al. For info. Independent, so pinch of salt.

*Animal welfare campaigners fear Michael Gove could backtrack on pledge to ban live exports after Brexit*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...chael-gove-slaughter-trade-ciwf-a8528951.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> In light of a few recent posts, this isn't great news. Barnier may be sabre-rattling, but it's the first time I've heard anyone specifically address the No Deal deal ...
> 
> From Reuters, presumably quoting the transcript of the recent meeting:
> 
> "If there is a no deal there is no more discussion. There is no more negotiation. It is over and each side will take its own unilateral contingency measures, and we will take them in such areas as aviation, but this does not mean mini-deals in the case of a no deal," [Barnier] said.​


That's what no deal normally means. No more discussions or deals. Let me guess you thought no deal meant we still have mini deals with the EU? It means we will no longer be under their jurisdiction and none of the EU treaties and laws and deals will apply to the UK in law or otherwise.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Scaremongering? You decide....
> This came up as a Facebook advertisment.
> 
> View attachment 367572
> was


I have seen similar adverts on the Underground in London from private medical companies trying to drum up business and that is all it is private medical companies trying to drum up business it is nothing to do with Brexit as these adverts have been around for along time before the referendum (2016).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That's what no deal normally means. No more discussions or deals. Let me guess you thought no deal meant we still have mini deals with the EU? It means we will no longer be under their jurisdiction and none of the EU treaties and laws and deals will apply to the UK.


Don't worry, you don't have to guess. I detailed what I thought a few pages back ...



Arnie83 said:


> The problem comes if we leave with No Deal.
> 
> Aviation must follow the rules. If the UK is not signed up to those rules - as it would not be the day after a No Deal Brexit - then we would not be allowed to fly planes in EU airspace. And if we did, those flights would be illegal, and the airlines would not be insured. Would any airline risk that? Of course not.
> 
> Ah - the leavers say - but there would be an interim arrangement while we sorted things out. And the point about that, which is very likely, is that it is not No Deal. It is a Deal. That's what an interim arrangement is. And such arrangements take time to identify, negotiate, agree and implement in a way that is legally watertight.
> 
> So in the event of No Deal, it isn't the EU being silly, or Ireland cutting their nose off. They would have no choice whatsoever, unless some sort of Deal is put in place.
> 
> It's why I asked on one of these threads what was meant by the No Deal that some posters were advocating. I wasn't being as obtuse as the answers suggested.


If it's familiar, that's because it was in reply to you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Don't worry, you don't have to guess.


That is quite a rude comment.
Anyhow it's common sense.
Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean there has to be another referendum.

There was protests in London this week from leave voters as TM is not respecting what was voted for in the peoples referendum in 2016 she intends to keep the UK tied to the EU in one form or another with the Chequers offer. I know no deal is also being offered and you have discussed this at length with others on here I chose not to respond as that is my choice it does not mean I do not know anything. It is my right to not reply.

I loved Brussels response this week to Labour and Kinnock *"Let the grown ups talk! Brussels RUBBISHES Kinnock's 'dead in water' Brexit fear-mongering"*
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1014415/brexit-news-chequers-deal-theresa-may-stephen-kinnock-michel-barnier/amp


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I have seen similar adverts on the Underground in London from private medical companies trying to drum up business and that is all it is private medical companies trying to drum up business it is nothing to do with Brexit as these adverts have been around for along time before the referendum (2016).


Rubbish. The leave campaign pledged £350m for the NHS don't forget. Now private companies are cashing in on on the uncertainties re the NHS's future.

Having said that similar happened under Thatcher's rule in the '80's.

"Banish those NHS waiting lists" I recall.

My point is, the NHS isn't and has never been safe under the Tories whether Brexit happens or not.

So they won the vote on the assumption money for the EU would be spent on the NHS instead.

I knew that was b******s, then I have a long memory.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Rubbish. The leave campaign pledged £350m for the NHS don't forget. Now private companies are cashing in on on the uncertainties re the NHS's future.
> 
> Having said that similar happened under Thatcher's rule in the '80's.
> 
> "Banish those NHS waiting lists" I recall.
> 
> My point is, the NHS isn't and has never been safe under the Tories whether Brexit happens or not.
> 
> So they won the vote on the assumption money for the EU would be spent on the NHS instead.
> 
> I knew that was b******s, then I have a long memory.


Yawn.

I will go to Stockwell Tube Station tomorrow and take a photo of the advert similar to the one you put up. I know exactly where it is on the esculator on the way down to the platforms. It says literally the same thing you have put up trying to scaremonger. The adverts are trying to get people to sign up to private health insurance and medical care, that is how they drum business up by compairing there business with the NHS. Of course if you pay for your medical treatment you won't have to join waiting lists that's what you have paid for.


----------



## Elles

350million was not promised to nhs. They said ‘could’ not ‘will’. As we should have known that a: it wasn’t a promise and b: it was a suggestion by people who had no way of bringing it about, it wasn’t worth the bus it was printed on. If people really thought it was a promise to give the nhs 350 million a week extra, then I dunno. 

Posters can stop asking me for all the answers surrounding the leave vote. As I said, I’m just guessing, I voted remain and I don’t believe that we will leave the Eu, let alone with ‘no deal’. I think it’s all posturing personally. I could be wrong, but then as always will deal with it if and when it happens. There’s nothing I can do about any of it and I don’t really mind either way. I thought it was the wrong time and the wrong government to organise leaving the Eu, despite what I think of the juggernaut and its minions.

I’ve been warned of nuclear war, the Russians, the millennium bug, the odd asteroid, wmd, eggs, all sorts of things over the years. I stopped panicking donkeys years ago. Sorry.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That is quite a rude comment.


You said:


stockwellcat. said:


> Let me guess you thought no deal meant we still have mini deals with the EU?



I said:


Arnie83 said:


> Don't worry, you don't have to guess. I detailed what I thought a few pages back ...


and then quoted it.

I don't really see how you interpret that as 'quite a rude comment', but if you do then I apologise readily and unreservedly.



stockwellcat. said:


> Anyhow it's common sense.


I also think it is common sense, and was claiming no great insight. The only thing is that some of the leading Brexiteers are promoting a No Deal Brexit and yet dismissing the warnings regarding aviation, medicine etc, as scaremongering. As you and I clearly agree, it isn't scaremongering at all; it's the common sense consequence of No Deal.



stockwellcat. said:


> Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean there has to be another referendum.


I obviously didn't explain myself very clearly. I think there should be another referendum not because I didn't like the first one - though its insight into people's mind-sets saddened me - but because it was markedly lacking in detail, and so much information has come to light since June 2016 that democracy pretty much demands that we check with the People (once the negotiations are concluded) if the proposed Brexit is the one they want. Requiring them to vote while uninformed, and then denying them a voice when facts are known really is very undemocratic indeed.



stockwellcat. said:


> There was protests in London this week from leave voters as TM is not respecting what was voted for in the peoples referendum in 2016 she intends to keep the UK tied to the EU in one form or another with the Chequers offer.


So a vote on what she is proposing (once the negotiations are concluded) would give those protesters the perfect chance to make clear that it isn't what they voted for in 2016. Where's the problem?



stockwellcat. said:


> I know no deal is also being offered and you have discussed this at length with others on here I chose not to respond as that is my choice it does not mean I do not know anything. It is my right to not reply.


Not responding is of course your choice, and one that I respect, especially as you have vowed to stay out of any Brexit threads. I don't think I've ever suggested that you don't know anything, though heaven knows none of us is omniscient and we should all give credence to greater expertise when we recognise it.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> 350million was not promised to nhs. They said 'could' not 'will'. As we should have known that a: it wasn't a promise and b: it was a suggestion by people who had no way of bringing it about, it wasn't worth the bus it was printed on. If people really thought it was a promise to give the nhs 350 million a week extra, then I dunno.
> 
> Posters can stop asking me for all the answers surrounding the leave vote. As I said, I'm just guessing, I voted remain and I don't believe that we will leave the Eu, let alone with 'no deal'. I think it's all posturing personally. I could be wrong, but then as always will deal with it if and when it happens. There's nothing I can do about any of it and I don't really mind either way. I thought it was the wrong time and the wrong government to organise leaving the Eu, despite what I think of the juggernaut and its minions.
> 
> I've been warned of nuclear war, the Russians, the millennium bug, the odd asteroid, wmd, eggs, all sorts of things over the years. I stopped panicking donkeys years ago. Sorry.


I have to say that I quite admire the fact that you voted remain, but seem to be able to see all sides of the coin. Quite rare nowadays.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I have to say that I quite admire the fact that you voted remain, but seem to be able to see all sides of the coin. Quite rare nowadays.


Anyone looking objectively at all the evidence should surely be reaching the conclusion that brexit is going to be a disastrous for this country though? (. And crucially for our living planet).


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> 350million was not promised to nhs. They said 'could' not 'will'. As we should have known that a: it wasn't a promise and b: it was a suggestion by people who had no way of bringing it about, it wasn't worth the bus it was printed on. If people really thought it was a promise to give the nhs 350 million a week extra, then I dunno.
> 
> Posters can stop asking me for all the answers surrounding the leave vote. As I said, I'm just guessing, I voted remain and I don't believe that we will leave the Eu, let alone with 'no deal'. I think it's all posturing personally. I could be wrong, but then as always will deal with it if and when it happens. There's nothing I can do about any of it and I don't really mind either way. I thought it was the wrong time and the wrong government to organise leaving the Eu, despite what I think of the juggernaut and its minions.
> 
> I've been warned of nuclear war, the Russians, the millennium bug, the odd asteroid, wmd, eggs, all sorts of things over the years. I stopped panicking donkeys years ago. Sorry.


People were deliberately misled about that money being available for the NHS. I know someone who voted leave solely on that 'promise'. Just about everything the leave campaign said was either a lie or a deliberate misiterpretation, and you can check out the closed referendum thread & other brexit threads to see how many people, even on here, were duped. You yourself believed the Martin Durkin propaganda video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that was what changed your mind from remain to leave?

There are some things we cant do anything about, but brexit is self inflicted, we dont have to through with this act if self harm. I've got my kids to think about and the natural world I love. (I am also concerned about the impact this will have on millions of humans lol ) This is also a battle for our democracy, so I'm going to fight against brexit tooth and nail till the bitter end.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> What paper is that Noush?
> 
> Edit: Found it in The Times, thanks.


I'm glad you found it Arnie, because I didn't know myself :Bag.


----------



## noushka05

(Via Dr Lauren Gavaghan)

Boris Johnson faces court over £350m claim.

"Marcus J Ball has spent the past 2 years building the case against Johnson...the 28-year-old is now working with Lewis Power QC, of Church Court Chambers, to bring a charge of misconduct in public office."

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Anyone looking objectively at all the evidence should surely be reaching the conclusion that brexit is going to be a disastrous for this country though? (. And crucially for our living planet).


Not too much objectivity on this thread, nor any of the Brexit ones really.

And this planet will be fine long after humanity has wiped itself from the face of it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Not too much objectivity on this thread, nor any of the Brexit ones really.
> 
> *And this planet will be fine long after humanity has wiped itself from the face of it.*


*and the soon the better!*


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Not too much objectivity on this thread, nor any of the Brexit ones really.
> 
> And this planet will be fine long after humanity has wiped itself from the face of it.


The overwhelming evidence points to brexit being a disaster and that is the objective truth of the matter.

The 'living' planet won't be fine. Humanity is on course to make this planet uninhabitable for most, if not all, lifeforms. Don't you think its our moral duty to act?


----------



## Tyson1919

What’s the story with the North of Ireland? Are you going to need a passport to get from the North of Ireland to Ireland?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> People were deliberately misled about that money being available for the NHS. I know someone who voted leave solely on that 'promise'. Just about everything the leave campaign said was either a lie or a deliberate misiterpretation, and you can check out the closed referendum thread & other brexit threads to see how many people, even on here, were duped. You yourself believed the Martin Durkin propaganda video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that was what changed your mind from remain to leave?
> 
> There are some things we cant do anything about, but brexit is self inflicted, we dont have to through with this act if self harm. I've got my kids to think about and the natural world I love. (I am also concerned about the impact this will have on millions of humans lol ) This is also a battle for our democracy, so I'm going to fight against brexit tooth and nail till the bitter end.


Yes, I'll correct you, you're wrong. It was the closed threads that were persuading me to vote leave, I said, if you remember, the posts were making me ashamed that I voted remain and made me want to vote leave if there was another referendum. I was pointing out that the mocking, accusations and downright nastiness of some of the posts from Remainers made me ashamed to be one of them. I also said that I'd never vote again, in any referendum, or election and I haven't. As far as I'm concerned there's no one, party, or policy I want to support now. I voted remain and Green Party originally, as you know.

I also said, I don't mind if there is another referendum, because I actually don't mind either way, stay or leave. You believe very strongly that the U.K. leaving the Eu will be a disaster for humanity, you hate the conservatives and capitalism generally and want the Eu and it's member countries to have power to protect us from them, according to your posts @noushka05 . I don't agree that everything the leave campaign said was a lie. Bringing up old arguments from old closed threads, where I'd become frustrated and disappointed and ended up reporting posts, is not only unkind, but not permitted.

There are some truths in all propaganda, whoever it's from. Journalists and politicians use it to their advantage, as it's usually based on ifs, buts and maybes, that can't be proven until after the event, or with the clever use of language, actually saying nothing much. It happened on both sides, but there was also plenty of truths on both sides. If I agreed with some of what was said in a video, I probably agreed with some of it. I have no idea who the guy saying it is and I don't specifically remember it, there were so many video links.

I will say again, the people I know who voted to leave, wanted to leave the Eu long before any referendum. Any truths, or lies by either side had no impact on them, because right, or wrong they'd already made up their minds and wasn't with any intent to hurt anyone else, or the planet. If you can't persuade a remain voter that Remain is the right thing to do, how are your posts going to persuade leave voters?

I have linked on other threads, people I admire who are doing something for the planet, some great things and who deserve our support. You said you don't have time to read them.


----------



## Elles

Oh and there ‘could’ be money for the NHS. It would depend on how leaving the Eu is dealt with and any arrangements. At the moment it’s not looking good. 

I agree with Arnie I think it was, in the nhs thread, or one of our members who is a health worker? They said more money isn’t going to save the NHS, it needs an overhaul and decisions taken over what is available on just the NHS. There’s far more to the NHS than just money. I told you about the German trauma surgeon I know, who works in Germany and had to take 3 months off. He says staff in Germany are just as pressured and stressed over there. It has little to do with the Eu, or more money.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Not too much objectivity on this thread, nor any of the Brexit ones really.


It is an emotive subject still, as, I suppose, befits a 51.9 : 48.1 split, and all the stuff that's happened in the last 2 years or so.

I do try to be as objective as possible, using only facts and a limited economic 'expertise', but I'll happily hold up my hand and recant should someone point out an overly subjective comment on my part. Though I admit to having a bit of a bugbear when facts are subjectively dismissed without objective counter arguments.



MilleD said:


> And this planet will be fine long after humanity has wiped itself from the face of it.


But not, perhaps, _*until*_ then.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I will say again, the people I know who voted to leave, wanted to leave the Eu long before any referendum. Any truths, or lies by either side had no impact on them, because right, or wrong they'd already made up their minds


Excuse me for grabbing a snippet of your post, and this is just a throwaway comment that I hope we all agree on (!).

General Elections are always about the floating voter and I think the referendum was the same. A lot of (sometimes dodgy) effort was put into persuading them one way or the other, and Leave won. That's about it, really! We are where we are.


----------



## Elles

One of the problems with facts at the moment don’t you think, is that we only have actual facts with hindsight and the present. The future is all projections and guesswork. Some guesses more educated than others, but still guesses. No one can really predict the future and the projections change every time something today changes. So it makes it easy for Remainers to use facts, as we are in the Eu and have been for a long time. The leavers can only use guesswork, until we’ve left.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> One of the problems with facts at the moment don't you think, is that we only have actual facts with hindsight and the present. The future is all projections and guesswork. Some guesses more educated than others, but still guesses. No one can really predict the future and the projections change every time something today changes. So it makes it easy for Remainers to use facts, as we are in the Eu and have been for a long time. The leavers can only use guesswork, until we've left.


Yep, absolutely. But at risk of sounding like a broken record, an economic fact is that if business costs rise, the growth of the economy slows. How much costs will rise is, right now, just a guess, as you say, but no-one (except Rees-Mogg's zero regulation economist) is claiming that costs will fall.

So if people are happy with slower growth and its implications, then that's fine. If they're not, then it probably doesn't matter because they probably won't be getting another chance to express their will.

But we're not guessing _whether_ economic damage will occur, just how severe it will be, and that depends, first and foremost, on the Deal.

(And that's not trying to change anyone's mind; merely stating objective truths!)


----------



## Arnie83

Tyson1919 said:


> What's the story with the North of Ireland? Are you going to need a passport to get from the North of Ireland to Ireland?


It's quite a long story, but in specific answer to the passport question, it is very unlikely indeed that there will a requirement for that. The movement of goods and services is more of an issue, because of EU and World Trade Organisation rules, but my bet is that they will find an 11th hour way to get round it.


----------



## Arnie83

For information. I wouldn't call it a bombshell, and the poll was commissioned by the People's Vote group, but the figures are sufficiently clear that it would be bold to dismiss them.

*Bombshell poll reveals heavy union backing for second Brexit vote*

The poll found that members of Unite, the country's biggest union, and Labour's largest financial backer, now support a referendum on the final Brexit deal by 59% to 33% and support staying in the EU by 61% to 35%.

GMB's members support putting the issue back to the people by 56% to 33% and its members want the UK to stay in the EU by 55% to 37%.

Unison members back another referendum by 66% to 22% and would opt to stay in the EU by 61% to 35%.​
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...l-massive-backing-second-eu-brexit-referendum


----------



## Elles

I would say Mrs May’s plan is going rather well.


----------



## Elles

I thought everyone said there would some kind of initial hit, but once we’re sorted out we’ll be away. We’d have to get our obligations to the Eu out of the way first and sort out any deals with the Eu and the rest of the world. How much of a hit and for how long is anyone’s guess, as is how much of an improvement there’ll be, if any. Economically speaking.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yes, I'll correct you, you're wrong. It was the closed threads that were persuading me to vote leave, I said, if you remember, the posts were making me ashamed that I voted remain and made me want to vote leave if there was another referendum. I was pointing out that the mocking, accusations and downright nastiness of some of the posts from Remainers made me ashamed to be one of them. I also said that I'd never vote again, in any referendum, or election and I haven't. As far as I'm concerned there's no one, party, or policy I want to support now. I voted remain and Green Party originally, as you know.
> 
> I also said, I don't mind if there is another referendum, because I actually don't mind either way, stay or leave. You believe very strongly that the U.K. leaving the Eu will be a disaster for humanity, you hate the conservatives and capitalism generally and want the Eu and it's member countries to have power to protect us from them, according to your posts @noushka05 . I don't agree that everything the leave campaign said was a lie. Bringing up old arguments from old closed threads, where I'd become frustrated and disappointed and ended up reporting posts, is not only unkind, but not permitted.
> 
> There are some truths in all propaganda, whoever it's from. Journalists and politicians use it to their advantage, as it's usually based on ifs, buts and maybes, that can't be proven until after the event, or with the clever use of language, actually saying nothing much. It happened on both sides, but there was also plenty of truths on both sides. If I agreed with some of what was said in a video, I probably agreed with some of it. I have no idea who the guy saying it is and I don't specifically remember it, there were so many video links.
> 
> I will say again, the people I know who voted to leave, wanted to leave the Eu long before any referendum. Any truths, or lies by either side had no impact on them, because right, or wrong they'd already made up their minds and wasn't with any intent to hurt anyone else, or the planet. If you can't persuade a remain voter that Remain is the right thing to do, how are your posts going to persuade leave voters?
> 
> I have linked on other threads, people I admire who are doing something for the planet, some great things and who deserve our support. You said you don't have time to read them.


No I dont remember Elles, so apologies if I was wrong. I now know what you did say was the reason _some people_ voted leave was because of the Durkin propaganda movie. And I cant argue with that as I saw plenty sharing the movie. In fact I believe it went viral . ( Martin Durkin is a known propagandist - notorious for his documentary claiming global warming is a hoax.) See the only thing which would change my mind is solid evidence, if the leave camp brought me solid evidence leaving the EU would be beneficial to the areas I feel are the most important, then I too would change my mind. But that is something I have never seen, despite looking. Vote leave cheated Elles, almost everything they said has been soundly debunked as a pack of lies. Leave or Remain, I never trusted ANY of the right wing camps. I was more interested in what respected experts, trusted NGOs & the progressive camp were saying. I have no problem with you checking out any of my posts on the ref thread, much of what I said then is coming to pass now.

Yes I also agree many people had already made up their minds long before the referendum - that wasnt me. I was completely open minded & did my best to look at both sides & importantly who was on the opposing sides. You simply can't be objective when your mind is already made up. (I'm speaking generally here)

I actually read your thread on the ocean clean up this morning & am following it on twitter. Not sure what it has to do with this thread mind lol


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Twitter.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> The poll found that members of Unite, the country's biggest union, and Labour's largest financial backer, now support a referendum on the final Brexit deal by 59% to 33% and support staying in the EU by 61% to 35%.​




Interesting as I believe Unite under McClusky's leadership rejected calls for a People's Vote on the final Brexit deal, the only major Trade Union to have done so.

Perhaps the mood of many of their members has changed in recent months or if it was McClusky's unilateral decision not to support this?​


----------



## Elles

I don’t think any leave voters have tried to persuade remain voters to change their minds. Not on petforums. From what I’ve seen I’m afraid, they’ve been too busy trying to defend their characters from all kinds of accusations and biting back at what they see as attacks.  

I personally don’t have a problem with a vote on a final deal, whatever it is. I still believe that the majority of the government don’t want to leave the Eu and are trying to wrangle it so that we don’t, but that it’s the people who can be blamed for it, not the government. Thus avoiding civil unrest and riots that are being predicted. I doubt I’ll be voting either way. The whole thing, start to finish, is a terrible manipulation of the average man imo.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> The whole thing, start to finish, is a terrible manipulation of the average man imo.


Which didn't go as expected I'm glad to say......................


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 367679
> Seen on Twitter.


Danny Dyer summed him up accurately and succinctly.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I would say Mrs May's plan is going rather well.


I do sometimes seriously wonder if May has been steering a Machiavellian course towards an end point where the 'agreed' Brexit is worse than staying in, so in the end we just cancel it all.



Elles said:


> I thought everyone said there would some kind of initial hit, but once we're sorted out we'll be away. We'd have to get our obligations to the Eu out of the way first and sort out any deals with the Eu and the rest of the world. How much of a hit and for how long is anyone's guess, as is how much of an improvement there'll be, if any. Economically speaking.


I remember quite a few Tory MPs promising that there would be no leaving bill, and no downside because we would get all the benefits we've already got after the 'easiest negotiation in human history' etc. That did change to a short term hit, that was worth it for whatever benefits they saw.

But long term, you're right, it's a guess. There are so many factors involved that it is feasible we could end up better off, though in my judgement* it would not be because of Brexit. Trade with the EU will remain more expensive than it is now, and to get ahead we would first have to catch up. Even Rees-Mogg said it could be 50 years.

One thing is sure, that without the alternative future to compare against, it will always remain an unresolved argument. And the People won't miss what they've never had, so they will shrug and leave it to boring economists to argue among themselves.

*Other judgements are available!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't think any leave voters have tried to persuade remain voters to change their minds. Not on petforums. From what I've seen I'm afraid, they've been too busy trying to defend their characters from all kinds of accusations and biting back at what they see as attacks.
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with a vote on a final deal, whatever it is. I still believe that the majority of the government don't want to leave the Eu and are trying to wrangle it so that we don't, but that it's the people who can be blamed for it, not the government. Thus avoiding civil unrest and riots that are being predicted. I doubt I'll be voting either way. The whole thing, start to finish, is a terrible manipulation of the average man imo.


I've tried to present evidence & my side of the argument when I've disagreed with a poster. Thats what debating is about, isnt it? I know in debates in the past I have changed peoples minds based on the evidence I presented them with. Likewise, I've had my mind changed on various topics too. Thats why debating is healthy - because we can learn. And I know I'm not perfect, but I've tried not to make it personal, I feel I have evidence on my side, I definitely dont want a thread derailed & closed. IME it has been those on the opposite side trying to derail threads in an attempt to shut down debate. Brexit should not become a taboo subject - if we crash out it will impact on our lives in so many ways. From our NHS to our environment & climate change .

The hard brexiters dont have a plan, they never did. They won by cheating & lying,and thats why we need a peoples vote on the final deal.



rona said:


> Which didn't go as expected I'm glad to say......................


Can I ask you how you feel about people frightened for their loved ones who need medicines to keep them alive like this man, Rona? Can you imagine how would you feel if you were in that position?

_I mean, for me, Brexit is quite simple.

If you cause a no deal exit, and Insulin runs out, and anything happens to my 7 year old daughter with Type 1 diabetes, I will
tear everything that's left down brick by f******* brick until it's dust.

Quite, quite simple._


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Danny Dyer summed him up accurately and succinctly.


Didn't he just


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> One of the problems with facts at the moment don't you think, is that we only have actual facts with hindsight and the present. The future is all projections and guesswork. Some guesses more educated than others, but still guesses. No one can really predict the future and the projections change every time something today changes. So it makes it easy for Remainers to use facts, as we are in the Eu and have been for a long time. The leavers can only use guesswork, until we've left.


If you believe this Elles, wouldn't you say it makes sense to have another vote on final deal when we'll know EXACTLY what we're voting for this time?


----------



## Elles

I did say I don’t have a problem with it Noush.

I think the deal may well be so bad, people will vote against it and it will be the people’s fault that the government have no alternative, other than to stay in. Conspiracy theorists will probably say that it’s the plan all along and the Eu have been conniving with the government to bring it about. It’s what I thought would happen the day we voted out and nothing so far has convinced me otherwise.

It might blow up in their face, but we’ll see won’t we.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well at least there is light beyond all this:

The EU Ready To Give Barnier Mandate To Close Brexit Deal at an informal summit in Salzburg this month.
https://www.ft.com/content/477ac3e4-b433-11e8-bbc3-ccd7de085ffe

They want a deal as much as the UK does so what's the problem? Oh I get it because the UK has made contingency plans for a no deal just like the eu have people have panicked. Well we was going to have to do this anyway. The UK negotiators and the EU negotiators are trying to avoid this happening but we had to plan for it anyway just in case.

What I have not liked about the negotiations is they had to involve the press as the press have made things sound 10 times worse that they actually are and stirred up the remainers and leavers alike. Yes I do believe that it should have all been done behind closed doors and nothing said to the press and nothing broadcast on TV about it until they knew what the deal was as the way this has been done has stirred up alot of friction broadcasting nearly everything that has been happening in the negotiations.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well at least there is light beyond all this:
> 
> The EU Ready To Give Barnier Mandate To Close Brexit Deal at an informal summit in Salzburg this month.
> https://www.ft.com/content/477ac3e4-b433-11e8-bbc3-ccd7de085ffe
> 
> They want a deal as much as the UK does so what's the problem? Oh I get it because the UK has made contingency plans for a no deal just like the eu have people have panicked. Well we was going to have to do this anyway. The UK negotiators and the EU negotiators are trying to avoid this happening but we had to plan for it anyway just in case.
> 
> What I have not liked about the negotiations is they had to involve the press as the press have made things sound 10 times worse that they actually are and stirred up the remainers and leavers alike. Yes I do believe that it should have all been done behind closed doors and nothing said to the press and nothing broadcast on TV about it until they knew what the deal was as the way this has been done has stirred up alot of friction broadcasting nearly everything that has been happening in the negotiations.


Thanks for the link. Sadly it's behind a pay wall so I can't read it! Looks interesting though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Thanks for the link. Sadly it's behind a pay wall so I can't read it! Looks interesting though.


How strange because when you click on the link when you search brexit news it lets you read the story.

Any how here it is in 5 segments.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> How strange because when you click on the link when you search brexit news it lets you read the story.
> 
> Any how here it is in 5 segments.


Thanks for that; interesting.

I worry slightly that they are looking to fudge the details of our future relationship and agree them only after we've left, and I wonder whether Parliament will be happy with that. I guess we'll see!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...civil-unrest-leaked-report-says-a3931031.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well at least there is light beyond all this:
> 
> The EU Ready To Give Barnier Mandate To Close Brexit Deal at an informal summit in Salzburg this mon
> They want a deal as much as the UK does so what's the problem? Oh I get it because the UK has made contingency plans for a no deal just like the eu have people have panicked. Well we was going to have to do this anyway. The UK negotiators and the EU negotiators are trying to avoid this happening but we had to plan for it anyway just in case.


What really angers me is all this could have been avoided had a PM not been stupid enough to call this referendum to settle a long running dispute within his own party, (and Labour to a far lesser extent), with no plan in place as to what to do in the event of Leave winning.

Brexiters have been fed lies. No, they aren't getting the Brexit they voted for. Except for the wealthy no one voted to become poorer, especially already having suffered 8 years of virtual pay freezes and austerity. No one voted for stockpiling of food and medicines. That was never even suggested by the Remain campaign during the referendum.

Citizens not UK born who have made the UK their home and vice versa still don't know their long term futures. Hopes and dreams of working/living across the EEA for the young and retirement age groups have been plunged into uncertainty. I don't want to hear patronising crap about everything will be ok, that nothing's going to change. There's no advantages to being "British". The sooner others realise that the better.

There's been similar articles in the press, how the EU are going to succumb to Theresa May's demands and the likes. Good for the £ until other reports say this is not so.

I don't agree this should all be kept secret. The media after all played a huge role in achieving the Brexiters victory. Why silence them now regardless of which side they're on?

I've said from the outset if the UK must leave the EU it needs to stay in the EEA+ customs union. It works for Norway and Switzerland. Brexiters shouldn't argue about not respecting the referendum result as the question was simply remain a member or leave the EU. The leave campaign often referred to Norway as being their template. Even memes on past threads here included that.

The only obstacle is Theresa May and her obsession with immigration targets. The EU rightly say no cherry picking. I'd rather see a no deal crash out, (something many Brexiters want), than an inch of concession to Theresa May's demands.

As I said at the start all this was avoidable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Even memes on past threads here included that.


This was Open Britain taking snippets from what was actually said no brexit campaigner said about staying in the EEA. Yes it was mentioned but in the breath after that they said it no or similiar to joining the EEA. Hannans speach for instance was obscured as he came forward and said listen to the whole speach and not the snippet used by Open Britain. I am affraid what you are highlighting here where lies Open Britain campaign made up as they didn't use the full details only what they wanted to use to back there campaign. Sorry but this part of your post is dead in the water.

Didn't Norway say they would oppose the UK joining the EEA not long ago? I am sure they did?

Regarding settling a party dispute the nation overall agreed with leaving the EU so don't you think it was a nationwide dispute? Sorry but we are close to sealing a deal with the EU, Barnier is being instructed to close the deal by the remaining 27 Countries on the 20th September in Salzburg. There isn't much time left for General Elections, fresh referendums etc and the EU aren't interested in this either.

I saw Ummana on Sky News yesterday on the Sophie Ridge show and he accused the Labour party of being racist, Sophie turned around and said why haven't you left Labour if that is what you think. Is this guy serious? if he thinks his own party is racist then he shouldn't be in it as he obviously doesn't trust other party members. Yes I know about the anti semitism row before you point that out and Corbyn really needs to get a grip of his party or step aside. He himself does not know if he backs Brexit or not, the PM challenged him on his stance last week in PMQ's and he refused to answer.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This was Open Britain taking snippets from what was actually said no brexit campaigner said about staying in the EEA. Yes it was mentioned but in the breath after that they said it no or similiar to joining the EEA. Hannans speach for instance was obscured as he came forward and said listen to the whole speach and not the snippet used by Open Britain. I am affraid what you are highlighting here where lies Open Briatin campaign made up as they didn't use the full details only what they wanted to use to back there campaign. Sorry but this part of your post is dead in the water. Didn't Norway say rhey would oppose the UK joining the EEA not long ago? I am sure they did?
> 
> Regarding settling a party dispute the nation overall agreed with leaving the EU so don't you think it was a nationwide dispute? Sorry but we are close to sealing a deal with the EU, Barnier is being instructed to close the deal by the remaining 27 Countries on the 20th September in Sulzburg. There isn't much time left for General Elections, fresh referendums etc and the EU aren't interested in this either.
> 
> I saw Ummana on Sky News yesterday on the Sophie Ridge show and he accused the Labour party of being racist, Sophie turned around and said why haven't you left Labour if that is what you think. Is this guy serious? if he thls his own party is racist then he shouldn't be in it as he obviously doesn't trust other party members. Yes I know about the anti semitism row before you point that out and Corbyn really needs to get a grip of his party or step aside. He himself does not know if he backs Brexit or not, the PM challeneged him on his stance last week in PMQ's and he refused to answer.


Yes, by 52-48%. Hardly a resounding victory though was it.

Scotland, Gibraltar and NI didn't back leave as you well know.

If you're right, if May gets her deal it's hardly what leavers voted for nor approved by most Remainers'.

Do you still hold that viewpoint or have you changed your mind and now back TM's Chequers plan?

As for Labour, they're finished. With a bit of luck this will finish the Tories too. Reports this morning that at least 80 bank bench MPs will be voting against TM's plans.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

I will ignore comments above this as we have been over and over that so many times it bores me silly.



KittenKong said:


> If you're right, if May gets her deal it's hardly what leavers voted for nor approved by most Remainers'.
> 
> Do you still hold that viewpoint or have you changed your mind and now back TM's Chequers plan?


I don't like the Chequers plan. I do like JRM's Canada style one though which he unveiled yesterday (stockwellcat runs for cover). To me JRM's counter deal offer sounded workable and Donald Tusk himself has previously offered this type of deal as being acceptable by the remaining 27.


> Reports this morning that at least 80 bank bench MPs will be voting against TM's plans.....


That's what they want the public to think yes. Haven't you learnt yet that the party whips will be out and MP's say one thing and do the opposite.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't like the Chequers plan. I do like JRM's Canada style one though which he unveiled yesterday. To me JRM's counter deal offer sounded workable and Donald Tusk himself has previously offered this type of deal as being acceptable by the remaining 27.


Do you think Rees-Mogg's plan is workable?

It has no alignment with EU regulations or common rules, so while there are no tariffs or quotas, there would be border controls - demanded by both EU and WTO rules - which leaves unsolved the problem of Ireland and of supply chains that cross UK / EU borders, sometimes frequently.

This from The Spectator, a Tory supporting magazine ...

But a Canada-style arrangement runs into two problems straight away. The first, and most important, is the so-called backstop. Given what the UK agreed to last December, such a deal would quickly create checks on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

The other reason that May has not chosen a Canada-style deal is that No. 10 fears what it would mean for those UK industries with complex, Europe-wide supply chains. Even if the Irish border were not an issue, there would still be many figures in the cabinet who would argue for a closer economic relationship with the EU than a Canada-style deal would allow for.​
No doubt Rees-Mogg will claim that border issues can be solved, but no-one has thought of a way so far, and Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by Parliament, means that changes to current border arrangements cannot be made.

My personal opinion is that Rees-Mogg is simply pushing for a No Deal because he wants rid of the EU from his jingoistically British life.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think Rees-Mogg's plan is workable?
> 
> It has no alignment with EU regulations or common rules, so while there are no tariffs or quotas, there would be border controls - demanded by both EU and WTO rules - which leaves unsolved the problem of Ireland and of supply chains that cross UK / EU borders, sometimes frequently.
> 
> This from The Spectator, a Tory supporting magazine ...
> 
> But a Canada-style arrangement runs into two problems straight away. The first, and most important, is the so-called backstop. Given what the UK agreed to last December, such a deal would quickly create checks on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
> 
> The other reason that May has not chosen a Canada-style deal is that No. 10 fears what it would mean for those UK industries with complex, Europe-wide supply chains. Even if the Irish border were not an issue, there would still be many figures in the cabinet who would argue for a closer economic relationship with the EU than a Canada-style deal would allow for.​
> No doubt Rees-Mogg will claim that border issues can be solved, but no-one has thought of a way so far, and Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by Parliament, means that changes to current border arrangements cannot be made.
> 
> My personal opinion is that Rees-Mogg is simply pushing for a No Deal because he wants rid of the EU from his jingoistically British life.


So why then on the 9th March 2018 did Donald Tusk say that a Canada type deal with the UK would be acceptable and when it is offered remainers instantly put it down? No pleasing sone people 

Lets be honest if JRM is striving for a no deal and Theresa May's fall back plan is no deal I guess it will be no deal.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> So why then on the 9th March 2018 did Donald Tusk say that a Canada type deal with the UK would be acceptable and when it is offered remains instantly put it down? No pleasing sone people
> 
> Lets be honest if JRM is striving for a no deal and Theresa May's fall back plan is no deal I guess it will be no deal.


There's a big difference between one person saying something is acceptable and everyone else agreeing. There's also a big difference between saying something and implementing something.

Also, it would be foolish to think that much of Big Business (particularly those with UK-heavy operations) would desire a No Deal result, and given that is where much of the true power really lies the chance of it happening is significantly reduced.


----------



## Elles

Our military are going to be very busy, what with delivering food and medicines and controlling riots. Still, I suppose it stops them being deployed abroad looking for none existent wmd.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So why then on the 9th March 2018 did Donald Tusk say that a Canada type deal with the UK would be acceptable and when it is offered remainers instantly put it down? No pleasing sone people
> 
> Lets be honest if JRM is striving for a no deal and Theresa May's fall back plan is no deal I guess it will be no deal.


A free trade deal, a la Canada, has always been on the table though it requires something different to cater for the Ireland situation, and the EU's proposed solution has been unacceptable to May (or more like the DUP). I think 'remainers' don't like it for the same reason business and the government don't like it - it requires border checks and makes our trade with the EU much more costly. That's why David Davis wanted "Canada +++", which the EU have never offered.

For Canada, the FTA was an improvement on what they had. But the UK is negotiating something worse than we currently have.

Parliament, I think, would reject a No Deal proposal. But we will see, I guess.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*EU's Barnier Says Brexit Deal With U.K. 'Realistic' in 6-8 Weeks*
www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-09-10/eu-s-barnier-says-brexit-deal-with-u-k-realistic-in-6-8-weeks

Then he says this:









For gods sake man tell us now what it is instead of all the drama. Talk about play up to the media. If you know what the unprecedented partnship proposal is tell us now to save Brexit and stop people getting fidgety about Brexit because you have to dramatise the whole procedure infront of the press.

I hope in future all trade negotiations the UK does with other countries doesn't have this amount of drama played out in front of the press? This is what is causing alot of the problems.

If he tells us now what the proposal is then it might make it easier to sort the remaining issues out and get a draft deal on the table instead of leaving everyone guessing.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> *EU's Barnier Says Brexit Deal With U.K. 'Realistic' in 6-8 Weeks*
> www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-09-10/eu-s-barnier-says-brexit-deal-with-u-k-realistic-in-6-8-weeks
> 
> Then he says this:
> 
> View attachment 367784
> 
> For gods sake man tell us now what it is instead of all the drama. Talk about play up to the media. If you know what the unprecedented partnship proposal is tell us now to save Brexit and stop people getting fidgety about Brexit because you have to dramatise the whole procedure infront of the press.
> 
> I hope in future all trade negotiations the UK does with other countries doesn't have this amount of drama played out in front of the press? This is what is causing alot of the problems.
> 
> If he tells us now what the proposal is then it might make it easier to sort the remaining issues out and get a draft deal on the table instead of leaving everyone guessing.


It would probably be polite to tell our politicians first, surely? The press are going to make a drama of it no matter what, giving them details ahead of anyone else is going to make it worse, not better. Psychology 101 

And, as far as trade negotiations go, this has been pretty drama free. Just wait until the fun and games with the likes of the US (who will want deregulation and the lowering of acceptable import standards), India (who want free movement of people) and China begins...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> That's what they want the public to think yes. Haven't you learnt yet that the party whips will be out and MP's say one thing and do the opposite.


You're probably right but the difference is Brexiters rather than Remainers are threatning to vote against the proposals.

I don't think they'll be as sympathetic towards May as the moderates might be.


----------



## Arnie83

A bit of a 'black-hat' comment: The deal that Barnier is referring to is the Withdrawal Agreement, and we still need to find an acceptable Irish backstop position, which by definition cannot be time-limited.

It must take into account the framework for a future trading relationship, but that will no doubt be fudged in order to get the withdrawal agreement through, leaving detailed negotiations to take place in the transition phase.

And it has to get through Parliament. If it's based on Chequers, Rees-Mogg & co will vote against it, as will Labour if they see the chance of getting a general election out of it. Agreement with the EU might be the easy bit!

But since it implies that May is looking for a close relationship with the EU, and the EU is keen to let her have one, it is good news. The pound has risen over a cent on the news, so the market is happier too.


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="Arnie83, post: 1065275800, member
But since it implies that May is looking for a close relationship with the EU, and the EU is keen to let her have one, it is good news. The pound has risen over a cent on the news, so the market is happier too.[/QUOTE]

That's always been her plan, "A deep and special partnership" as one of her many soundbites. The problem is it's on her terms or no terms. However much the EU rightly say no to her ending free movement she presses on expecting them to cave into her demands which has been going on for over two years.

If she wants a deal it has to be 100% on EU terms. She came crawling to them, not the other way round.

Otherwise walk away.

Thought that's what many Brexiters want anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And it has to get through Parliament. If it's based on Chequers, Rees-Mogg & co will vote against it, as will *Labour if they see the chance of getting a general election *out of it.


That is down to the PM to call not Parliament. She would have to seek peemission from Parliament under the Parliament act, remember she had to do it last time. If there was a GE who would vote Labour? There leader doesn't know if the UK should stay or leave and won't make his position clear. Sorry but I think a GE won't happen by a long shot, I think TM won't request permission for one. A leadership challenge might happen but it doesn't mean it will be followed by a GE as it is down to the serving PM to request permission to hold one.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *EU's Barnier Says Brexit Deal With U.K. 'Realistic' in 6-8 Weeks*
> www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-09-10/eu-s-barnier-says-brexit-deal-with-u-k-realistic-in-6-8-weeks
> 
> Then he says this:
> 
> View attachment 367784
> 
> For gods sake man tell us now what it is instead of all the drama. Talk about play up to the media. If you know what the unprecedented partnship proposal is tell us now to save Brexit and stop people getting fidgety about Brexit because you have to dramatise the whole procedure infront of the press.
> 
> I hope in future all trade negotiations the UK does with other countries doesn't have this amount of drama played out in front of the press? This is what is causing alot of the problems.
> 
> If he tells us now what the proposal is then it might make it easier to sort the remaining issues out and get a draft deal on the table instead of leaving everyone guessing.


What's the matter? I thought you'd be thankful of the press.

Do you really think Leave would have won if papers like The Sun backed staying in the EU?

Before you argue otherwise I understand the press with the exception of the Morning Star backed the Yes vote in 1975....

I rest my case.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> What's the matter? I thought you'd be thankful of the press.
> 
> Do you really think Leave would have won if papers like The Sun backed staying in the EU?
> 
> Before you argue otherwise I understand the press with the exception of the Morning Star backed the Yes vote in 1975....
> 
> I rest my case.


No I am not thankful for the press. I think they have caused alot of the problems with the way they have reported things.

You always go on about the Sun. I don't read that newspaper. I know you do.


----------



## KittenKong

No backing of a people's vote from Unite then I guess.....

Not a member thankfully. I would have resigned it if I was.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ey-calls-on-labour-mps-to-unite-behind-corbyn


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No backing of a people's vote from Unite then I guess.....
> 
> Not a member thankfully. I would have resigned it if I was.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ey-calls-on-labour-mps-to-unite-behind-corbyn
> 
> View attachment 367802


He hasn't said he will back a peoples vote. Len McCluskey has told MP's to stop critising Corbyn or leave even though nobody knows which way he is swinging this week regarding Brexit or a Peoples Vote. I guess that tells Ummoana where to go as he was calling the Labour party racist yesterday.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No backing of a people's vote from Unite then I guess.....
> 
> Not a member thankfully. I would have resigned it if I was.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ey-calls-on-labour-mps-to-unite-behind-corbyn
> 
> View attachment 367802


Just to add









And Labour still want Brexit...









All in the Guardian newspaper article you linked above.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not thankful for the press. I think they have caused alot of the problems with the way they have reported things.
> 
> You always go on about the Sun. I don't read that newspaper. I know you do.


Personally I believe Theresa May and her bunch of incompetents have caused a lot of the problems rather than the press. Still, better you blame them rather than the 16+ million who voted remain for not getting behind Brexit!

The Sun is the default paper at work, so of course I look at it! Not my place to tell them what paper they can or cannot read. Sometimes there's a copy of the Daily Mail too.

Re your post above I gave up on Labour as soon as they confirmed their continued pro Brexit stance after the last general election.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Just to add
> View attachment 367806
> 
> 
> And Labour still want Brexit...
> 
> View attachment 367808
> 
> All in the Guardian newspaper article you linked above.


Yes, I saw that. Says it all doesn't it. McClusky's clearly ignoring the will of his members.

I have as much faith in Jeremy Corbyn delivering a "Jobs First" Brexit as the £350m for the NHS pledge.

Neither are possible.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I saw that. Says it all doesn't it.


It brings us back to the point if there was a GE people who want to remain won't back Labour or Conservatives and neither of the other parties stand a chance. As a leave voter I am stuck as well as I don't agree with May's Chequers deal nor Corbyn's idea of Brexit as neither plan would provide a propper Brexit. But as I said above I don't think there will be a GE for the reasons I mention above in a previous post.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This was Open Britain taking snippets from what was actually said no brexit campaigner said about staying in the EEA. Yes it was mentioned but in the breath after that they said it no or similiar to joining the EEA. Hannans speach for instance was obscured as he came forward and said listen to the whole speach and not the snippet used by Open Britain. I am affraid what you are highlighting here where lies Open Britain campaign made up as they didn't use the full details only what they wanted to use to back there campaign. Sorry but this part of your post is dead in the water.
> 
> Didn't Norway say they would oppose the UK joining the EEA not long ago? I am sure they did?


I know what I saw at the time, an image of the Norway flag with words to the effect of "Norway is not in the EU". Can't find it now but noticed a lot of images and posts have been deleted from the thread. Not suggesting it was yourself I hasten to add.

It wouldn't be any of Norway'' business to oppose the UK becoming an EEA rather than EU member. As they're not in the EU they have no say in the matter!

What I seem to recall anyway is Norway would rightly object to cherry picking seeing they had to accept EU rules on the EU's terms for wanting access to the single market.

If Norway and Switzerland have to, why should the UK be treated differently if they want access to the SM as well?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just a little update on the Vote Leave cheating thing....

The following statement was made this evening in Westminster Hall after a debate was held because a petition was launched to withdraw article 50 or something along them lines and it had reached 200,000 signatures.

Tory and Labour MP's have rejected calls to withdraw article 50...










I draw your attention to the last paragraph above.

Apparently there isn't a case to be heard either in Court according to the Governments lawyers.

Full article here:
https://amp.theguardian.com/law/201...e-campaigners-may-have-broken-financial-rules


----------



## Arnie83

"The law [does] not provide for overturning referendum results for cheating."

As a general comment - i.e. not specifically for Brexit - I can't help but think that the law bloody well should provide for exactly that, and Democracy should _demand_ it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> "The law [does] not provide for overturning referendum results for cheating."
> 
> As a general comment - i.e. not specifically for Brexit - I can't help but think that the law bloody well should provide for exactly that, and Democracy should _demand_ it.


But it does cover the referendum that has already been had. That was a democratic vote, peoples vote and whatever else you want to call it (points already been discussed what made it democratic many times before so no point covering it again). It has been agreed not to overturn article 50 by Labour and Conservatives.

I think when it comes to the votes on the deal depending what the deal is and Barnier thinks the deal can be done in the next 6 to 8 weeks the Labour and Conservative Whips are going to busy.

On a side note (more policital than Brexit related). The update on the Boundary changes Labour and Lib Dems set to lose the most (Labour 30 seats) Conservatives are only set to lose 10 seats under the new Boundary Changes. This will make the Conservatives the largest party out of Labour and Conservatives. Jeremy Corbyn's seat Islington North will be lost in the Boundary Changes. So what will happen does this mean he will not be allowed to remain as Labour Leader? 50 MP's in total are set to lose their seats as the amount of MP's will go from 650 to 600.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But as I said above I don't think there will be a GE for the reasons I mention above in a previous post.


You are probably right, but consider this scenario ...

May negotiates an agreement with the EU which is a lot like the Chequers plan, except a bit softer, because the EU flatly refuse to risk the single market.

She takes it to Parliament where Rees-Mogg and his c.80 cronies vote against it. Corbyn's Labour also vote against (because they've thought of this scenario too), and it is defeated.

May says, okay, in that case it's No Deal and takes that to Parliament instead. A big chunk of Tories would vote against that, and so would Labour. So that's defeated as well.

What is May to do then?

If she resigns and is replaced, there is still a big Parliamentary majority who don't support a No Deal scenario, so that's no use to a new No Deal Tory Leader like Boris or Rees-Mogg. The only chance for them is to go for a General Election and hope to change the Parliamentary make-up sufficiently to force a No Deal through. And that - the GE - is what Labour want. And who knows what their position on Brexit will be by then? I would be surprised if it's the same as it is now.

All guesswork, of course, but can't be ruled out. It would be fun to watch if it wasn't so important.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But it does cover the referendum that has already been had. That was a democratic vote, peoples vote and whatever else you want to call it (points already been discussed what made it democratic many times before so no point covering it again). It has been agreed not to overturn article 50 by Labour and Conservatives.
> 
> I think when it comes to the votes on the deal depending what the deal is and Barnier thinks the deal can be done in the next 6 to 8 weeks the Labour and Conservative Whips are going to busy.
> 
> On a side note (more policital than Brexit related). The update on the Boundary changes Labour and Lib Dems set to lose the most (Labour 30 seats) Conservatives are only set to lose 10 seats under the new Boundary Changes. This will make the Conservatives the largest party out of Labour and Conservatives. Jeremy Corbyn's seat Islington North will be lost in the Boundary Changes. So what will happen does this mean he will not be allowed to remain as Labour Leader? 50 MP's in total are set to lose their seats as the amount of MP's will go from 650 to 600.


Absolutely it doesn't affect the Brexit vote, which is why my comment was a general one, as I said. The definition of Democracy should include cheating.

Good point about the boundary changes; which make a General Election all the more likely.

Corbyn, I suspect, would be found a safe seat among those that remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Absolutely it doesn't affect the Brexit vote, which is why my comment was a general one, as I said. The definition of Democracy should include cheating.
> 
> Good point about the boundary changes; which make a General Election all the more likely.
> 
> Corbyn, I suspect, would be found a safe seat among those that remain.


I doubt a GE will happen because of the Boundary changes as the Conservatives will relish having the most seats yet again in Parliament and it is entirely up to the PM if she wants a GE and Parliament have to agree (Fixed Parliaments Act 2011).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt a GE will happen because of the Boundary changes as the Conservatives will relish having the most seats yet again in Parliament and it is entirely up to the PM if she wants a GE and Parliament have to agree (Fixed Parliaments Act 2011).


Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your posts - apologies if I am - but the boundary changes won't take effect until the next General Election, whenever that is. The current Parliamentary seat numbers will remain as they are until then.

But given my suggested scenarion in which May can't get her deal or a 'no deal' through Parliament, what do you think she would do?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You are probably right, but consider this scenario ...
> 
> May negotiates an agreement with the EU which is a lot like the Chequers plan, except a bit softer, because the EU flatly refuse to risk the single market.
> 
> She takes it to Parliament where Rees-Mogg and his c.80 cronies vote against it. Corbyn's Labour also vote against (because they've thought of this scenario too), and it is defeated.
> 
> May says, okay, in that case it's No Deal and takes that to Parliament instead. A big chunk of Tories would vote against that, and so would Labour. So that's defeated as well.
> 
> What is May to do then?
> 
> If she resigns and is replaced, there is still a big Parliamentary majority who don't support a No Deal scenario, so that's no use to a new No Deal Tory Leader like Boris or Rees-Mogg. The only chance for them is to go for a General Election and hope to change the Parliamentary make-up sufficiently to force a No Deal through. And that - the GE - is what Labour want. And who knows what their position on Brexit will be by then? I would be surprised if it's the same as it is now.
> 
> All guesswork, of course, but can't be ruled out. It would be fun to watch if it wasn't so important.


Nice guessing there as no one actually knows but I will make a suggestion. If the deal gets voted down in Parliament, Parliament don't vote on no deal the deal has been rejected, it automatocally switches to no deal when the deal has been voted on. The MP's don't get to vote on a no deal that is the back stop. So the Chequers deal has to go through or the back stop kicks in which does not get voted on. It's the same if the majoroty of the EU countries vote against the deal the No Deal back stop kicks in. No one votes on this they only vote on the deal on offer. No deal happens when nobody UK and EU can come to an agreement. This will not trigger another referendum, will not trigger a General Election and will not cost May her job. May's counter measure to the Deal is being prepared for No Deal which nobody votes on. The UK could accept the Chequers deal and the EU refuse this also brings us to a no deal situation.

So Parliament be warned voting down May's Chequers deal (if it survives the Tory Party Conference as the Brexitiers are planning to announce a leadership challenge) will result in a No Deal which doesn't get voted on. The Whips will be busy.

Regarding Rees Moggs Canada style plan what I liked about it was if there was no deal the £39 billion we was going to pay the EU would go straight to the NHS and we wouldn't be obliged to pay the EU nothing. Under the Canada deal proposed by JRM 98 per cent of the red tape on trading in goods and services will be removed. Of course there's holes in his plan that need work to close there is in May's.

The problem the UK has right now and it is a serious one. If there is a leadership challenge, general election or 2nd referendum time is running out. November a deal is meant to be presented to the EU for ratification, February all the last minute tweaks and March we leave. In between there are a number of Parliamentary breaks where Parliament shuts down. There isn't time to put forward a new deal so we are stuck with the Chequers plan in which the EU are working with the UK to tweak they did not say it is dead in the water like Labour tried saying through Kinnock. The EU are working hard to make the Chequers deal workable in EU law. The EU rubbished claims that the Chequers deal was dead in the water the other day said Barnier did not say that either. The main issue at the moment is the Irish Border which Barnier believes a solution can be made in 6 to 8 weeks making November the end date for the negotiations and a draft deal must be on the table.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding Rees Moggs Canada style plan what I liked about it was if there was no deal the £39 billion we was going to pay the EU would go straight to the NHS and we wouldn't be obliged to pay the EU nothing. Under the Canada deal proposed by JRM 98 per cent of the red tape on trading in goods and services will be removed. Of course there's holes in his plan that need work to close there is in May's.


Who said this £39 billion would go straight to the NHS? Surely not the same set who misled people into believing our NHS would get the £350 million?

I can't believe people think its ok to renege on our financial obligations to the EU. How can we expect other countries to trust us ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Who said this £39 billion would go straight to the NHS?


It's in JRM's Canada type deal that if a deal cannot be secured that the £39 billion divorce bill will be paid straight to the NHS. He was also talking about a reduction in taxes straight away in the UK as well.
We are under no obligation to pay the £39 billion by the way.

But in all honesty there isn't time to implement a new deal as time is fast running out. The EU are to give Barnier instructions to close the current deal with the UK in Salzburg this month by November.


----------



## Elles

He says the money will pay for cuts in income tax and vat too not just the nhs. There’s scaremongering from one side and bribery from the other. Even if it were possible, JRM couldn’t bring it about. His group also wants some kind of shield to protect the U.K. and an increase in the army, in case the Falklands happens again. That money is going to need to stretch a long way. They’re a bunch of nutters if you ask me.

However, if their promises have given the Eu cause for concern and a bit of a push, good, maybe they’ll get on with it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> This was Open Britain taking snippets from what was actually said no brexit campaigner said about staying in the EEA.


You know that is hillarious. It's been determined and you have stated that decisions were made due to perceptions before the official campaign. In addition during the 2015 general election campaign, the Conservative Party made an unconditional commitment in their manifesto to "safeguard British interests in the single market" regardless of the referendum outcome. "We say yes to the single market," they proclaimed. So all those conservative MP's pushing leave were aware of that fact.



> Regarding settling a party dispute the nation overall agreed with leaving the EU so don't you think it was a nationwide dispute? Sorry but we are close to sealing a deal with the EU, Barnier is being instructed to close the deal by the remaining 27 Countries on the 20th September in Salzburg.


So tell me what the solution is for the Irish border. Remember everything needs to be resovled or nothing is resolved. Doesn't matter how close if key issues are not resovled.



> There isn't much time left for General Elections, fresh referendums etc and the EU aren't interested in this either.


Interesting.. EU rules on leaving actually states the need to recognise democratic proccess, process those against a 2nd vote obviously are scared of. There's also plenty of time if you let the facts speak for themselves rather than campaigns to be crafted.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> We are under no obligation to pay the £39 billion by the way.


According to who? UK committed to paying as *part of the withdrawal process*. This is completely separate from any trade arrangement. Quite amusing again, you have politicians like Rees-Mogg, house of lords saying one thing, experts saying the opposite.

https://www.ft.com/content/72252768-47de-11e8-8ae9-4b5ddcca99b3

The House of Lords did a report saying that the UK wouldn't have to pay. Unfortunately according to legal experts:


> the House of Lords' report errs in taking the more specific procedural steps for withdrawal in Article 50 TEU as evidence that Article 50 contracted out of all _other_ rules of international law on treaty withdrawal


According to the actual government, if the UK did refuse to pay the EU is likely to take the UK to the International Court of Justice or the Permanent Court of Arbitration, both located in The Hague.

So your statement could well be false and it would not exactly be good for the UK to be being taken to court when it needs to make new treaties or to forge better ties after the damage brexit is causing.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> He says the money will pay for cuts in income tax and vat too not just the nhs. There's scaremongering from one side and bribery from the other. Even if it were possible, JRM couldn't bring it about. His group also wants some kind of shield to protect the U.K. and an increase in the army, in case the Falklands happens again. That money is going to need to stretch a long way. They're a bunch of nutters if you ask me..


Every time I hear JRM or one of his sidekicks open their mouths, I'm allways reminded of Kaa in The Jungle Book film "Trusssst in meeee.... Jusssst in meeee...." 



Elles said:


> However, *if their promises have given the Eu cause for concern *and a bit of a push, good, maybe they'll get on with it.


To be frank, I can't see why it would. All the JRM et al posturing amounts to is "play the game by our rules or I'm going to go home and be Billy No Mates (given that it's not even my ball)." We don't really have anything to offer them they can't get elsewhere, and if we can't import their goods it won't affect them nearly as much as it will affect us, given all the other countries they can free trade with whilst we scrape by on WTO (in all probability for a few years given the complexity of debating trade deals and our lack of bargaining power). My gran would have termed it 'cutting off your nose to spite your face.'


----------



## Happy Paws2

I be glad when it's done right or wrong, it's doing my head in all this a arguing and back stabbing in the government they are like a lot of spoilt kids. 

And to be honest at my age, I don't really care if the country sinks or not.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You know that is hillarious. It's been determined and you have stated that decisions were made due to perceptions before the official campaign. In addition during the 2015 general election campaign, the Conservative Party made an unconditional commitment in their manifesto to "safeguard British interests in the single market" regardless of the referendum outcome. "We say yes to the single market," they proclaimed. So all those conservative MP's pushing leave were aware of that fact.
> 
> So tell me what the solution is for the Irish border. Remember everything needs to be resovled or nothing is resolved. Doesn't matter how close if key issues are not resovled.
> 
> Interesting.. EU rules on leaving actually states the need to recognise democratic proccess, process those against a 2nd vote obviously are scared of. There's also plenty of time if you let the facts speak for themselves rather than campaigns to be crafted.


Just to bring you up to speed.
Last night a debate took place in Westminster Hall. Labour and Conservatives agreed that article 50 will not be withdrawn as requested in a pettition signed by over 200,00 people, so sorry to upset you with that fact.

Also there is no provision in law to overturn a referendum result. So I wonder where that leaves things as they are facts.

Labour is fully backing leaving the EU but there vision is different than the Conservatives view. Len McClusky announced that Labour MP's need to get behind Corbyn on this or leave. Ummoana accused Labour on Sunday of being racist and was asked why he hasn't left on the Sophie Ridge show.

Brexit is happening so you'll have to get used to it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Just to bring you up to speed.
> Last night a debate took place in Westminster Hall. Labour and Conservatives agreed that article 50 will not be withdrawn as requested in a pettition signed by over 200,00 people, so sorry to upset you with that fact.
> 
> Also there is no provision in law to reverse a referendum result. So I wonder where that leaves things as they are facts.
> 
> Brexit is happening so you'll have to get used to it.


You seem desparate.. There's no need to reverse a referendum result. Sorry to remind you of facts but the referendum was non-binding anyway. It's the government which needs to change policy, nothing to do with the first referendum. Where it leaves things is simple.. democratic process and will of the people being pushed until the government listens.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You seem desparate.. There's no need to reverse a referendum result. Sorry to remind you of facts but the referendum was non-binding anyway. It's the government which needs to change policy, nothing to do with the first referendum. Where it leaves things is simple.. democratic process and will of the people being pushed until the government listens.


You can keep pushing what you want. There is no provision in LAW to overturn a referendum in other words even to have another one. Fact.

There is no actual proof things have swayed one way or another. A few polls. Polls suggested Jeremy Corbyn would win the last GE, he didn't.

Remainers keep bragging that more people want to remain. Where's the proof? Only 302,738 people have signed the petition on the Peoples Vote website. That's not a lot. It won't even get debated as it is a private pettition same goes for the Independants public poll. The government keep shutting polls down on the pettition part of the .gov website because the question has already been answered so all avenues to a debate have been closed or debated on and refused. There is a small movement among MP's but Labour backed not to overturn the referendum last night with the Conservatives. MP's doing what they do best implementing democracy.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You can keep pushing what you want. There is no provision in LAW to overturn a referendum *in other words even to have another one. Fact*.


Without being argumentative, I'm afraid to say that really is not a fact.

There is certainly no provision in law to annul a referendum result because of cheating, as we saw a day or so ago.

But Parliament can agree to hold another referendum about anything whenever they want.

At the moment, most don't, or are mostly keeping quiet about it.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> You can keep pushing what you want. There is no provision in LAW to overturn a referendum in other words even to have another one. Fact.


Missing the point entirely. Of course there is no law, for a very simple reason. You don't need to overturn a referendum as it's not binding to anyone. It's an "official" opinion poll nothing more, unless parliament created it differently which isn't the case here. The referendum is ancient history and you need to deal with the present. The present where leave politicians still do not have a workable plan. May's chequers plan is despised by both sides and no deal has been shown to be the worst possible outcome.



> Remainers keep bragging that more people want to remain. Where's the proof?


Well can you show opinion polls which show the opposite? https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-poll-latest-news-remain-support-eu-referendum/ https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/north-east-changes-mind-brexit-15060105 https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/south-west-brexit-vote-bath-1876881 Even The Sun and the Daily Mail with headlines along the lines of "support for leaving has increased" show only 36 per cent of interviewees wanted to leave the EU. Many people have not changed their minds but they don't have to for a result swing simply due to demographics. More youngers, you tend to vote remain are able to vote.

Of course nobody knows for certain. It's only opinion polls but so was the referendum. What is more obvious however is more and more people are supporting having a people's vote. You know, actually allowing people have a say in their future now they have more information and are more capable of making an informed decision. Parliament could even make it a binding referendum this time around


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Parliament could even make it a binding referendum this time around


Well if they done that and leave won oh dear the remainers wouldn't be happy again. The leave voters are remaining quiet by the way. Not dead. Not in their graves just yet. Just keeping quiet. Alot of remainers who voted in the referendum have said they would now vote leave if given a second chance, Sky news made this point last week on one of there shows. There is more support than you think to leave the EU. We are called the silent majority.

Polls can easily faked. Someone can sign up with lots of different email addresses and sign them. Proven with the one the remainers hijacked reference 2nd referendum which was written by a leave voter in the event the UK vited to remain and got millions of signatures. Alot of the signatures where from people that didn't live in the UK and subsequently deleted.

If it was to be binding any future referendum (which I doubt there will be one) then I am affraid that would be the end of the issue if leave won and I am confident they would.

The Parties in Parliament that want to leave the EU:
Conservatives
Labour (This was found out in the Guardian yesterday and I have put s snippet up on a previous post)
DUP
The Welsh Assembly decided to back May when she decided to try and get Scotland to back Brexit as well.

The majority of MP's back to leave the EU see.

Remaining small parties that support remaining in the EU in Parliament:
Lib Dems (12)
SNP
Green Party (1)
A few Labour MP's - Chukka Ummuna and his few backers (Ummuna had the nerve to call his party racist on Sunday and was then asked why hasn't he left if he does not trust his colleagues and thinks they are racist. Len McClusky - One of the Trade union leaders then told Labour MP's to back Corbyn and Corbyn's vision of Brexit or leave yesterday).
A Few Conservative MP's
Not many you see.


----------



## Goblin

> If it was to be binding any future referendum (which I doubt there will be one) then I am affraid that would be the end of the issue if leave won and I am confident they would.


So you would support another vote then. Wait... you don't. Why is that? Obvious conclusion is that you are afraid of people being able to make an informed choice despite your confidence. Then again believing in advantages to brexit is similar to belief in unicorns isn't it. Just saying it again and again doesn't mean it's true.

Simple question. Why are you afraid of people having a say when they have more information so they can make an informed choice?



> The Parties in Parliament that want to leave the EU:
> Conservatives
> Labour (This was found out in the Guardian yesterday and I have put s snippet up on a previous post)
> DUP
> The Welsh Assembly decided to back May when she decided to try and get Scotland to back Brexit as well.
> 
> The majority of MP's back to leave the EU see.
> 
> Remaining small parties that support remaining in the EU in Parliament:
> Lib Dems (12)
> SNP
> Green Party (1)
> A few Labour MP's - Chukka Ummuna and his few backers (Ummuna had the nerve to call his party racist on Sunday and was then asked why hasn't he left if he does not trust his colleagues and thinks they are racist. Len McClusky - One of the Trade union leaders then told Labour MP's to back Corbyn and Corbyn's vision of Brexit or leave yesterday).
> A Few Conservative MP's
> Not many you see.


So tell me again, how many support May's chequers plan? How many people support whatever plan the leave campaigner's haven't really come up with yet? Interesting you push politicians than actually pushing for the people they are supposed to represent having a say. Also find it funny that you say "want to leave the EU" when so many leavers are complaining that people like May etc don't want to really.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So you would support another vote then. Wait... you don't. Why is that? Obvious conclusion is that you are afraid of people being able to make an informed choice despite your confidence? Then again believing in advantages to brexit is similar to belief in unicorns isn't it. Just saying it again and again doesn't mean it's true.
> 
> So tell me again, how many support May's chequers plan? How many people support whatever plan the leave campaigner's haven't really come up with yet? Interesting you push politicians than actually pushing for the people they are supposed to represent. Find it funny that you say "want to leave the EU" when so many leavers are complaining that people like May etc don't want to really.


You don't read things properly do you? I do not support Mays Chequers deal and never have. There is still a majority of MP's in Parliament that want Brexit. We do not know what the deal is yet and this part of it is close to being concluded and Barnier says it will take 6 to 8 weeks to have a draft deal. So there is a deal there but we do not know the technicalities of it yet. I am not affraid of anything. I just do not support another referendum. But I would vote exactly the same way I did last time as would other people.

Now I find your tone is becoming somewhat hostile so my conversation with you is over.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Without being argumentative,


I am not looking for an arguement as I know you're not. Some though need to improve their tone towards people (not you) no names mentioned.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't read things properly do you? I do not support Mays Chequers deal and never have.


Did actually read that. You along with the majority.. as has been previously stated majority do not want Chequers deal. Also majority don't agree with the non-existent plan provided by those pushing leave. No deal has been shown to be damaging to the UK. So explain how things are acceptable to the majority, unless the only reason is not to care about anything but the idea of leaving regardless of the damage it causes?



stockwellcat. said:


> There is still a majority of MP's in Parliament that want Brexit.


How do you know they WANT brexit? It's actually a minority who are pushing for it.



> We do not know what the deal is yet and this part of it is close to being concluded and Barnier says it will take 6 to 8 weeks to have a draft deal. So there is a deal there but we do not know the technicalities of it yet.


And you state I do not read.. Again remember this: "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". Can you tell me what solution of NI/Ireland has been worked out. Until then there is no deal there. Still intrigued how the UK can actually implement red lines which are mutually excluding one another.



> I am not affraid of anything. I just do not support another referendum. But I would vote exactly the same way I did last time as would other people.


Majority of people seem to be heading towards wanting another vote. Isn't that what democracy is about?



stockwellcat. said:


> Now I find your tone is becoming somewhat hostile so my conversation with you is over.


You mean I ask uncomfortable questions again.


----------



## ClaireLouise

Goblin said:


> You mean I ask uncomfortable questions again.


From a readers perspective you are coming across as aggressive, argumentative, and unnecessarily rude.
You make valid points in most debates but your posts are often rude.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not looking for an arguement as I know you're not. Some though need to improve their tone towards people (not you) no names mentioned.


Is this a good time to point out you said you weren't going to participate in these threads any more?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Is this a good time to point out you said you weren't going to participate in these threads any more?


But surely changing one's mind about participating in a discussion is no excuse for repeated rudeness?


----------



## Goblin

ClaireLouise said:


> From a readers perspective you are coming across as aggressive, argumentative, and unnecessarily rude.
> You make valid points in most debates but your posts are often rude.


In that case probably best if I leave. When people are intent on damaging the country and my child's future and all the reasoning they can come up with is "I want to" and they are supported by what seems like a majority there is little else to say. When simply stating the truth and asking questions upsets them, after all that's the definition of rude you are using, not that anything I have stated is (to my knowlege) false or is a personal attack. Brexit is bad for the UK and bad for the EU. Nothing has been provided which shows anything else. Have fun @stockwellcat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> But surely changing one's mind about participating in a discussion is no excuse for repeated rudeness?


I think I have been polite. Not gone to argue with anyone. I have been very well behaved I hope?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It's in JRM's Canada type deal that if a deal cannot be secured that the £39 billion divorce bill will be paid straight to the NHS. He was also talking about a reduction in taxes straight away in the UK as well.
> We are under no obligation to pay the £39 billion by the way.
> 
> But in all honesty there isn't time to implement a new deal as time is fast running out. The EU are to give Barnier instructions to close the current deal with the UK in Salzburg this month by November.


Is that the same JRM who voted against the principles of our NHS at every opportunity? https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2011-03-16&number=233&display=allvotes Just go through his voting history SWC , its disgraceful. Don't be fooled into believing this horrible man represents our best interests, because the facts prove otherwise.

Brexit is already costing us a fortune. We could be spending that money on our NHS right now. There will be no brexit dividend for our NHS. I've shown you the assessments done by experts which show all types of brexit will damage our NHS - and no deal catastrophic. We should listen to trusted experts not shysters like Mogg. Please try to understand his extreme libertarian free market ideology is the antithisis of the ethos of our NHS. Of course he wants tax cuts, because it benefits him & his ilk. He wants to turn the UK into a tax haven. Those cuts will be paid for by more cuts to public services. This will be more public money transfered into private pockets. Austerity on steroids.


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien's Hilarious Take On Jacob Rees Mogg's £1Trillion Brexit Claim*


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

ClaireLouise said:


> From a readers perspective you are coming across as aggressive, argumentative, and unnecessarily rude.
> You make valid points in most debates but your posts are often rude.


With respect, I'll correct you.

"From my perspective you are coming across as aggressive.....".

As a reader myself there's nothing in Goblin's posts I find argumentive, aggressive and rude.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> But surely changing one's mind about participating in a discussion is no excuse for repeated rudeness?


I didn't say there was, but @stockwellcat. did ask to be told off for posting on Brexit threads somewhere else I read.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Is that the same JRM who voted against the principles of our NHS at every opportunity? https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2011-03-16&number=233&display=allvotes Just go through his voting history SWC , its disgraceful. Don't be fooled into believing this horrible man represents our best interests, because the facts prove otherwise.
> 
> Brexit is already costing us a fortune. We could be spending that money on our NHS right now. There will be no brexit dividend for our NHS. I've shown you the assessments done by experts which show all types of brexit will damage our NHS - and no deal catastrophic. We should listen to trusted experts not shysters like Mogg. Please try to understand his extreme libertarian free market ideology is the antithisis of the ethos of our NHS. Of course he wants tax cuts, because it benefits him & his ilk. He wants to turn the UK into a tax haven. Those cuts will be paid for by more cuts to public services. This will be more public money transfered into private pockets. Austerity on steroids.


Try not to worry about it to much. Looking into this myself his plan isn't really going to go anywhere as the UK and EU negitiators are close to a deal on things anyway. The Irish PM seems to think a deal on the Irish border will be reached within weeks. It seems alot is going on behind the scenes the public don't hear about until it is announced in the press.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45481024


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well if they done that and leave won oh dear the remainers wouldn't be happy again. The leave voters are remaining quiet by the way. Not dead. Not in their graves just yet. Just keeping quiet. Alot of remainers who voted in the referendum have said they would now vote leave if given a second chance, Sky news made this point last week on one of there shows. There is more support than you think to leave the EU. We are called the silent majority.
> 
> Polls can easily faked. Someone can sign up with lots of different email addresses and sign them. Proven with the one the remainers hijacked reference 2nd referendum which was written by a leave voter in the event the UK vited to remain and got millions of signatures. Alot of the signatures where from people that didn't live in the UK and subsequently deleted.
> 
> If it was to be binding any future referendum (which I doubt there will be one) then I am affraid that would be the end of the issue if leave won and I am confident they would.
> 
> The Parties in Parliament that want to leave the EU:
> Conservatives
> Labour (This was found out in the Guardian yesterday and I have put s snippet up on a previous post)
> DUP
> The Welsh Assembly decided to back May when she decided to try and get Scotland to back Brexit as well.


You forget Wales, like England voted leave. It's only natural they would back Brexit.

Perhaps the leave voters didn't realise voting leave would weaken devolved powers in Cardiff in favour of Westminster. Any Welsh nationalists who voted leave probably didn't bargain for that but they're not allowed to change their minds as we know.

With Scotland it's a completely different matter. It's not only about Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of their people. It's also about Theresa May's unilateral attempt at ceasing absolute control of Scotland's affairs, you know the extra powers David Cameron promised if they voted to remain in the UK in addition to the powers they already had.

They have every right to resist that. After all, love them or loath them, the SNP are democratically elected to serve Scotland, not the Westminster based Conservative party.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Try not to worry about it to much. Looking into this myself his plan isn't really going to go anywhere as the UK and EU negitiators are close to a deal on things anyway. The Irish PM seems to think a deal on the Irish border will be reached within weeks. It seems alot is going on behind the scenes the public don't hear about until it is announced in the press.
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45481024


If you're not worried then you're not paying attention SWC.

*Pippa Crerar*‏Verified account @PippaCrerar 3h3 hours ago
_NEW: chief executive of Britain's biggest car manufacturer *Jaguar Land Rover* launches blistering attack on Theresa May's Brexit plans warning that "tens of thousands" of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashes out without a deal._


----------



## noushka05

*Faisal Islam*‏Verified account @faisalislam 2h2 hours ago
NEW: Jaguar Land Rover boss Ralph Speth, at the same event as the PM tells Sky News that no Deal Brexit could hit its profits by £1.2bn... said he is "very very concerned" by the prospect of cross channel blockages on supply chains "stopping the production lines"

Indeed speaking from the same lectern just before the PM the Jaguar Land Rover boss Speth: "Brexit is due to happen on march 29th next year. Currently I do not even know if any of our manufacturing facilities in the uk will be able to function on the 30th..."/2

JLR's Speth: "Bluntly we will not be able to build cars if the motorway to and from Dover becomes a car park... Frictionless trade is not an aspiration but a necessity. Unfettered access to the single market is as important a part to our business as wheels are to our cars." /3

Speth says a hard Brexit will destroy electric car vision revealed today "hard Brexit will cost JLR on its own without any supply influence more than 1.2bn pounds a year… wiping out profit, destroying investment in the autonomous connected electric vision we want to share" /4


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you're not worried then you're not paying attention SWC.
> 
> *Pippa Crerar*‏Verified account @PippaCrerar 3h3 hours ago
> _NEW: chief executive of Britain's biggest car manufacturer *Jaguar Land Rover* launches blistering attack on Theresa May's Brexit plans warning that "tens of thousands" of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashes out without a deal._


Please don't twist what I said. Thank you.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I didn't say there was, but @stockwellcat. did ask to be told off for posting on Brexit threads somewhere else I read.


I can't see where you've been rude . Ive already shouted at him <step away from the thread > earlier .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I can't see where you've been rude . Ive already shouted at him <step away from the thread > earlier .


But I did step back from the thread.  Gave it a break and came back 

I have given what I hope is preceived as sensible replies and backed up what I have said in some of them.

Thank you for advising that I stepped away from the thread when I did (briefly).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Please don't twist what I said. Thank you.


I didn't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I didn't.


You did because I said:


> *Try not to worry about it to much*. Looking into this myself his plan isn't really going to go anywhere as the UK and EU negitiators are close to a deal on things anyway. The Irish PM seems to think a deal on the Irish border will be reached within weeks. It seems alot is going on behind the scenes the public don't hear about until it is announced in the press.


I am trying to understand how you preceived this the way you did?


----------



## noushka05

Ian Dunt rips the shysters apart in this brilliant article.

*Ian Dunt*‏Verified account @IanDunt 2h2 hours ago

They have nothing. After all the swagger and the radio interviews, the no-deal Brexiters are finally
revealed as the chancers they really are.

*The garbled nonsense of Jacob Rees-Mogg's new press release*
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...nsense-of-jacob-rees-mogg-s-new-press-release

The Economists for Free Trade are a ragtag bunch of Brexit-supporting eccentrics whose primary function is to make all other economists feel better about their life choices. Their latest press release, which comes with a Jacob Rees-Mogg stamp of approval, is a masterclass in babbling nonsense. It is designed to promote their new report on why Britain would be fine if it fell off the cliff-edge in March next year, contrary to the findings of every credible independent body in economics or indeed any industry body.

It is hard to find a single accurate sentence in the entire thing. It is so full of legal, economic and logical misunderstanding that it is genuinely easier to highlight the sections of it which are true. However, that would also be less fun, so let's stick with the traditional methodology.

It starts with the first sentence of the second paragraph. "A world trade deal under WTO rules would boost the UK's trade with the rest of the world _including Europe_," it reads. It is a quite completely insane thing to suggest.

Firstly, there is no "world trade deal". There is a WTO safety net which, among other things, bans discrimination in trading arrangements between countries unless they have a trade deal. Calling this arrangement a 'world trade deal' is the worst kind of misleading and cynical advertising-speak.

Second, WTO terms are not going to boost the UK's trade with Europe. There is no scenario painted by anyone on any side of the debate which would suggest this and there is certainly no reason to believe it on the basis of what is written here. It's the kind of thing you say when you have soared off into your own special land where the rules of causation do not apply. This sentence suggests the Economists for Free Trade are no longer in a fight against the EU, but against the basic concepts of language and meaning.

"If the EU insisted on slapping WTO tariffs on British exports," the paper scowls, like a schoolboy pretending to be James Bond, "the overall effect would amount to a staggering £13 billion a year boost to UK revenues."

The EU is not "insisting" anything. It has no choice. The WTO non-discrimination provision means that you must apply your tariffs equally outside of a trade deal. The authors either know this and are liars, or they don't and are idiots.

At other points, the report appears to recognise the non-discrimination provision and then simultaneously misunderstand it so comprehensively that it turns the world on its head.

Armageddon-style predictions that the EU would freeze out British goods by refusing to recognise them as complying with EU standards in breach of WTO rules and in a worse way than it treats any other non-EU country are simply not realistic," the report reads. You may have noticed that it is very hard to follow the writing. The sentence structure is an absolute mess and they appear to be unaware of the existence of commas. But put aside the grammar for a moment and focus on the argument.

They have everything back to front. The EU is not proposing to treat Britain differently to any other non-EU country. The entire problem is that it is treating Britain _as _any other non-EU country, and that entails a substantial downgrading of our relationship. In a way, this is the pinnacle of the report, because it is the point where its arguments become perfectly inverse to the reality of the thing it is discussing. It is a magic mirror world of 180-degree wrongness.

"Imposing non-tariff barriers to trade are illegal under WTO rules," it then adds - a point which is simply false. If it were true, there would be an awful lot of illegality going on in the WTO, given that there are non-tariff barriers to trade everywhere. Having a different language is a non-tariff barrier. Passing a law banning certain plastic packaging or chemicals in production are non-tariff barriers

The single market aims to eradicate non-tariff barriers, for instance by melding together regulations. It is precisely this project which the Brexiters demanded to leave a couple years ago because it was apparently an intolerable infringement on our sovereignty. Now they claim that it is everywhere: all around us, all-good and never visible, like a deity.

"Switching to a World Trade Deal under WTO rules is no step in the dark because the UK already conducts about half of its trade under WTO rules and six out of ten of the EU's main trading partners - including China, India, the USA and Japan - trade with it under a WTO regime," the press release says.

They are clearly oblivious to how free trade operates. There is almost no country on earth which operates only by WTO rules. States use a variety of trading structures to allow goods to flow more easily. Mutual recognition agreements, for instance, allow you to do anything from trusting another country's safety checks to providing a priority lane during import.

The EU has hundreds of these things, lots of them with prized trading partners like China and the US. It is simple wrong to say, as Economists for Free Trade do, that "over the past 25 years, the top four exporters to the EU, including the USA and China, have all conducted their trade under WTO rules". They don't.

There are countless other fallacies, logical malfunctions and howling errors in just the press release, let alone the full report, but life is too short to read it all. There comes a point where you have to spare yourself the intellectual damage, the sheer cost in brain cells, of sustained exposure to this stuff.

We are at the tail end of Brexit, with around six months until the end of Article 50, and this is what the hard Brexiters have to offer. This is the sum total of their proposition: a report which can barely complete a sentence without misleading people and which has no understanding of the most basic elements of the matters it purports to address.

Yesterday, Rees-Mogg confirmed that another report, a 140-page alternate plan for Brexit by the Tory MPs opposed to Theresa May's Chequers proposal, has been permanently spiked.

From what we know of it, the paper appears to be in the same genre as the Economists for Free Trade report: nationalist slashfic in which Britain plays the role of potent action hero while the world and objective reality meekly submit to its will. There would be tax cuts, huge tax cuts - tax cuts across the board - but also there would be massive spending, not least on a nuclear defence shield in space and an expeditionary force sent to the Falklands for no discernable reason. Ultimately it was so deranged and bizarre even Mogg thought it best to shelve it.

Boris Johnson keeps making general stabbing actions at the prime minister, but what is his plan? He wrote in the Mail yesterday that the Irish backstop had put Britain into a negotiating headlock. "It is a humiliation," he said

But what proposal does he have to fix it? Nothing. There is only a vague assertion of "technical solutions". Around the world, people are "abolishing frontier checks", he says, and we can do so here, failing to mention that he just headed a campaign which made border control its core message.

Even the most advanced borders, like Canada-US, have checks, and so do the most regularly intimate ones, like Norway-Sweden. The "technical solutions" he alludes to do not exist. They've had months to try and show us how these technical solutions would work - not just in general but specifically for implementation in March next year. They have not, because they cannot. Just like all the other promises, they crumble to dust as soon as they are touched.

There is nothing. They have nothing. After all the swagger and the radio interviews and the parliamentary machinations and the think tank reports and the speeches, they've not a single viable proposal to offer. At some point, either months or years from now, there will be a stocktake of what was said during this period and how key people behaved. It will not be kind to them.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> But I did step back from the thread.  Gave it a break and came back
> 
> I have given what I hope is preceived as sensible replies and backed up what I have said in some of them.
> 
> Thank you for advising that I stepped away from the thread when I did (briefly).


 yes if course , I think this thread is a lot better than the others .

My comment to millie isnt aimed at you. She was accused of being rude to you and I dónt think she was and I was saying that I had similar said to you earlier.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You did because I said:
> 
> I am trying to understand how you preceived this the way you did?


Edited this. I clearly cant multi task cos I've misread it. OK, I'll try to clarify. You said 'try not to worry too much. I responded with 'if you're not worried you're not paying attention.

Brexit is a shambles, we're going to suffer for it in many ways - & the poorest will suffer the most. By that logic we should all be worried.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Simply we will have self made recession.
With austerity to follow.

No, don’t tell me that if I mention all animals that will be homeless and much fewer new homes for any of them that is a cheap shot.

With loss of jobs we have loss of money to spend, which results in shrinking market, more job loss etc ... basically shrinking economy.
Growing taxes...


----------



## noushka05

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling 3h3 hours ago

'A great Hope fell 
You heard no noise 
The Ruin was within.'

Emily Dickinson


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> I didn't say there was, but @stockwellcat. did ask to be told off for posting on Brexit threads somewhere else I read.


 I hope you don't think I meant that you were being rude to stockwellcat?

I can assure you. you definitely weren't the person I had in mind !


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> If you're not worried then you're not paying attention SWC.
> 
> *Pippa Crerar*‏Verified account @PippaCrerar 3h3 hours ago
> _NEW: chief executive of Britain's biggest car manufacturer *Jaguar Land Rover* launches blistering attack on Theresa May's Brexit plans warning that "tens of thousands" of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashes out without a deal._


JLR being worried about crashing out of the EU doesn't seem to tally with their expansion here. Still going, still getting planning approval, nothing on 'hold' since the Brexit vote to see how things pan out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I hope you don't think I meant that you were being rude to stockwellcat?
> 
> I can assure you. you definitely weren't the person I had in mind !


Ahem. I am here. You can both speak to me  :Hilarious

You both haven't been rude to me.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> I hope you don't think I meant that you were being rude to stockwellcat?
> 
> I can assure you. you definitely weren't the person I had in mind !


Ha ha, no I didn't think you meant me. @stockwellcat. {waves}


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> JLR being worried about crashing out of the EU doesn't seem to tally with their expansion here. Still going, still getting planning approval, nothing on 'hold' since the Brexit vote to see how things pan out.


 JLR needs frictionless trade with the EU to operate - how can they do that if we crash out?

This is the governments own impact assessment on jobs.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> JLR needs frictionless trade with the EU to operate - how can they do that if we crash out?
> 
> This is the governments own impact assessment on jobs.


Yes, I got the implication from your first post about it 

But what I'm asking is why would they carry on with a huge expansion plan here, whilst bitching about crashing out of the EU?

Either they are worried about it and they hang fire (or do it in Europe proper?) with the expansion, or they think it's fine and carry on with it here.

And it is huge.


----------



## Elles

Everyone seems to agree that using less plastic is a good thing. We’re being told not to buy plastic bags and to recycle. What about all the companies who make bags and containers and their employees? There probably won’t be higher unemployment after brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Bloody cheek to even think of this after March next year!

If Ireland becomes unified that's another matter.

But for the DUP who financed a huge 4-page pro Brexit advertisement in the Metro free paper with the usual rubbish about £3m for the NHS and Turkey about to join the EU that's something else.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...exit-1.3624646?mode=amp#.W5f_6RPR9Ng.facebook


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Yes, I got the implication from your first post about it
> 
> But what I'm asking is why would they carry on with a huge expansion plan here, whilst bitching about crashing out of the EU?
> 
> Either they are worried about it and they hang fire (or do it in Europe proper?) with the expansion, or they think it's fine and carry on with it here.
> 
> And it is huge.


That isnt bitching - thousands of jobs are at stake. JLR boss needs assurances frictionless trade will be maintained. Don't you believe him?

Businesses are packing up left right & centre.



Elles said:


> Everyone seems to agree that using less plastic is a good thing. We're being told not to buy plastic bags and to recycle. What about all the companies who make bags and containers and their employees? There probably won't be higher unemployment after brexit.


ehh??


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> That isnt bitching - thousands of jobs are at stake. JLR boss needs assurances frictionless trade will be maintained. Don't you believe him?
> 
> Businesses are packing up left right & centre.


Ok, belief. No probably not. It makes no sense whatsoever to push on with an expansion plan in a country you fear may become a difficult trade route.

Pushing buttons to get more of an outcome he wants that helps him out? Yeah. Probably.

I see you aren't answering the question I asked. He's happy to shit all over the town I used to live in, so you bet I don't believe he gives a toss about anyone but himself.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Ok, belief. No probably not. It makes no sense whatsoever to push on with an expansion plan in a country you fear may become a difficult trade route.
> 
> Pushing buttons to get more of an outcome he wants that helps him out? Yeah. Probably.
> 
> I see you aren't answering the question I asked. He's happy to shit all over the town I used to live in, so you bet I don't believe he gives a toss about anyone but himself.


Maybe he thought no government could be so incompetent to risk millions of jobs? but time is running out now and no deal looks highly possible.

Businesses need clarity & many businesses depend upon frictionless trade with the EU. The car industry employs a lot of people over here, those jobs are now at risk.
_
The British car industry is concerned about the possible impacts of Brexit because of its heavy reliance on the European supply chain and the EU's status as Britain's biggest car export market.

"To ensure future growth, we need political and economic clarity at home, and the continuation of beneficial trading arrangements with the EU and other key markets," said Hawes_

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-ca...+businessinsider+(Business+Insider)&r=US&IR=T


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Maybe he thought no government could be so incompetent to risk millions of jobs? but time is running out now and no deal looks highly possible.
> 
> Businesses need clarity & many businesses depend upon frictionless trade with the EU. The car industry employs a lot of people over here, those jobs are now at risk.
> _
> The British car industry is concerned about the possible impacts of Brexit because of its heavy reliance on the European supply chain and the EU's status as Britain's biggest car export market.
> 
> "To ensure future growth, we need political and economic clarity at home, and the continuation of beneficial trading arrangements with the EU and other key markets," said Hawes_
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-car-production-fall-brexit-smmt-figures-2018-8?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=referral&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+businessinsider+(Business+Insider)&r=US&IR=T


And to prevent beautiful green fields being concreted on when there is a wealth of sites that could be used, we also need JLR to not make a car park for 6500 cars on the edge of a canal town.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> And to prevent beautiful green fields being concreted on when there is a wealth of sites that could be used, we also need JLR to not make a car park for 6500 cars on the edge of a canal town.


If the environment matters to you then you really should be strongly opposing brexit Millie. Mogg & co want us out of the EU so they can deregulate environmental protections. This is why the green NGOs & respected environmentalists & conservationists warned us against leaving.


----------



## Elles

JLR are owned by an Indian company who bought it from Ford, American I believe, and has factories in Slovakia that it’s been moving some operations to for a while now. Cheaper. Probably only still here in some capacity because of government concessions. Why is everyone panicking about it? There is no British car industry to speak of and hasn’t been for a while really.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> If the environment matters to you then you really should be strongly opposing brexit Millie. Mogg & co want us out of the EU so they can deregulate environmental protections. This is why the green NGOs & respected environmentalists & conservationists warned us against leaving.


I'm sorry but 

There's a lot of bleating about democracy on this thread. If the nation feels that de-regulation is disagreeable then they will vote out the government at the next opportunity.

But I was under the impression looking at the way legislation works and what the government were planning on doing, I thought they were re-writing it and simply replacing EU specified laws with ones that are enshrined in UK law.

I thought, for instance that we have better animal welfare laws here than dictated by the EU - if not, why do we have to send veal calves abroad.

And animal rights seems far better in the UK than other European countries. Or is that just because those countries never complied with the laws as they were set.

For instance https://uk.whales.org/news/2017/11/...gnore-regulation-to-prevent-whale-and-dolphin UPSETTING IMAGES.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> There is no British car industry to speak of and hasn't been for a while really.


Austin Martin's are still made in the UK


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> JLR are owned by an Indian company who bought it from Ford, American I believe, and has factories in Slovakia that it's been moving some operations to for a while now. Cheaper. Probably only still here in some capacity because of government concessions. Why is everyone panicking about it? There is no British car industry to speak of and hasn't been for a while really.


Jobs? British people are making those cars in Britain?

As to environment - doubt of the Greens support Brexit, Brexit will be a true disaster for environment.

"freedom" will translate as "deregulation", you will be told that jobs need to be created!
Remember: the cleanest of industries - financial services will lose, already lost lots of jobs that are moving to EU.
City counts for a quarter of British income.

City violently opposed Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Ian Dunt rips the shysters apart in this brilliant article.
> 
> *The garbled nonsense of Jacob Rees-Mogg's new press release*
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...nsense-of-jacob-rees-mogg-s-new-press-release
> 
> The Economists for Free Trade are a ragtag bunch of Brexit-supporting eccentrics whose primary function is to make all other economists feel better about their life choices. Their latest press release, which comes with a Jacob Rees-Mogg stamp of approval, is a masterclass in babbling nonsense. It is designed to promote their new report on why Britain would be fine if it fell off the cliff-edge in March next year, contrary to the findings of every credible independent body in economics or indeed any industry body.
> 
> It is hard to find a single accurate sentence in the entire thing. It is so full of legal, economic and logical misunderstanding that it is genuinely easier to highlight the sections of it which are true. However, that would also be less fun, so let's stick with the traditional methodology.
> 
> It starts with the first sentence of the second paragraph. "A world trade deal under WTO rules would boost the UK's trade with the rest of the world _including Europe_," it reads. It is a quite completely insane thing to suggest.
> 
> Firstly, there is no "world trade deal". There is a WTO safety net which, among other things, bans discrimination in trading arrangements between countries unless they have a trade deal. Calling this arrangement a 'world trade deal' is the worst kind of misleading and cynical advertising-speak.
> 
> Second, WTO terms are not going to boost the UK's trade with Europe. There is no scenario painted by anyone on any side of the debate which would suggest this and there is certainly no reason to believe it on the basis of what is written here. It's the kind of thing you say when you have soared off into your own special land where the rules of causation do not apply. This sentence suggests the Economists for Free Trade are no longer in a fight against the EU, but against the basic concepts of language and meaning.
> 
> "If the EU insisted on slapping WTO tariffs on British exports," the paper scowls, like a schoolboy pretending to be James Bond, "the overall effect would amount to a staggering £13 billion a year boost to UK revenues."
> 
> The EU is not "insisting" anything. It has no choice. The WTO non-discrimination provision means that you must apply your tariffs equally outside of a trade deal. The authors either know this and are liars, or they don't and are idiots.
> 
> At other points, the report appears to recognise the non-discrimination provision and then simultaneously misunderstand it so comprehensively that it turns the world on its head.
> 
> Armageddon-style predictions that the EU would freeze out British goods by refusing to recognise them as complying with EU standards in breach of WTO rules and in a worse way than it treats any other non-EU country are simply not realistic," the report reads. You may have noticed that it is very hard to follow the writing. The sentence structure is an absolute mess and they appear to be unaware of the existence of commas. But put aside the grammar for a moment and focus on the argument.
> 
> They have everything back to front. The EU is not proposing to treat Britain differently to any other non-EU country. The entire problem is that it is treating Britain _as _any other non-EU country, and that entails a substantial downgrading of our relationship. In a way, this is the pinnacle of the report, because it is the point where its arguments become perfectly inverse to the reality of the thing it is discussing. It is a magic mirror world of 180-degree wrongness.
> 
> "Imposing non-tariff barriers to trade are illegal under WTO rules," it then adds - a point which is simply false. If it were true, there would be an awful lot of illegality going on in the WTO, given that there are non-tariff barriers to trade everywhere. Having a different language is a non-tariff barrier. Passing a law banning certain plastic packaging or chemicals in production are non-tariff barriers
> 
> The single market aims to eradicate non-tariff barriers, for instance by melding together regulations. It is precisely this project which the Brexiters demanded to leave a couple years ago because it was apparently an intolerable infringement on our sovereignty. Now they claim that it is everywhere: all around us, all-good and never visible, like a deity.
> 
> "Switching to a World Trade Deal under WTO rules is no step in the dark because the UK already conducts about half of its trade under WTO rules and six out of ten of the EU's main trading partners - including China, India, the USA and Japan - trade with it under a WTO regime," the press release says.
> 
> They are clearly oblivious to how free trade operates. There is almost no country on earth which operates only by WTO rules. States use a variety of trading structures to allow goods to flow more easily. Mutual recognition agreements, for instance, allow you to do anything from trusting another country's safety checks to providing a priority lane during import.
> 
> The EU has hundreds of these things, lots of them with prized trading partners like China and the US. It is simple wrong to say, as Economists for Free Trade do, that "over the past 25 years, the top four exporters to the EU, including the USA and China, have all conducted their trade under WTO rules". They don't.
> 
> There are countless other fallacies, logical malfunctions and howling errors in just the press release, let alone the full report, but life is too short to read it all. There comes a point where you have to spare yourself the intellectual damage, the sheer cost in brain cells, of sustained exposure to this stuff.
> 
> We are at the tail end of Brexit, with around six months until the end of Article 50, and this is what the hard Brexiters have to offer. This is the sum total of their proposition: a report which can barely complete a sentence without misleading people and which has no understanding of the most basic elements of the matters it purports to address.
> 
> Yesterday, Rees-Mogg confirmed that another report, a 140-page alternate plan for Brexit by the Tory MPs opposed to Theresa May's Chequers proposal, has been permanently spiked.
> 
> From what we know of it, the paper appears to be in the same genre as the Economists for Free Trade report: nationalist slashfic in which Britain plays the role of potent action hero while the world and objective reality meekly submit to its will. There would be tax cuts, huge tax cuts - tax cuts across the board - but also there would be massive spending, not least on a nuclear defence shield in space and an expeditionary force sent to the Falklands for no discernable reason. Ultimately it was so deranged and bizarre even Mogg thought it best to shelve it.
> 
> Boris Johnson keeps making general stabbing actions at the prime minister, but what is his plan? He wrote in the Mail yesterday that the Irish backstop had put Britain into a negotiating headlock. "It is a humiliation," he said
> 
> But what proposal does he have to fix it? Nothing. There is only a vague assertion of "technical solutions". Around the world, people are "abolishing frontier checks", he says, and we can do so here, failing to mention that he just headed a campaign which made border control its core message.
> 
> Even the most advanced borders, like Canada-US, have checks, and so do the most regularly intimate ones, like Norway-Sweden. The "technical solutions" he alludes to do not exist. They've had months to try and show us how these technical solutions would work - not just in general but specifically for implementation in March next year. They have not, because they cannot. Just like all the other promises, they crumble to dust as soon as they are touched.
> 
> There is nothing. They have nothing. After all the swagger and the radio interviews and the parliamentary machinations and the think tank reports and the speeches, they've not a single viable proposal to offer. At some point, either months or years from now, there will be a stocktake of what was said during this period and how key people behaved. It will not be kind to them.


As an economist by training and a poor man's expert on WTO rules after 2 years and more of researching the things, I must say I absolutely agree with just about every word of that.

It doesn't reiterate that in order to get to its unique predictions of a multi-billion pound gain in future trade the report makes the assumption that we will not have tariffs or trade restrictions on any trade with anyone. Dodgy production standards, labour and environmental practices? No worries.

Minford accepts that UK manufacturing and farming would probably collapse, but he advocates "reallocation of labour", though to what is not stipulated. You lose your job to cheap imports? Go and do something else instead; not my problem.

Rees-Mogg so desperately wants to split us from what he sees as the humiliating influence of the EU that he is perfectly happy not only to lie to the public en masse, but also to sacrifice the little people on the altar of a quite mad economic plan. From the picture above, it seems that Boris and Bone are happy to join him for their own very personal reasons that have nothing to do with the welfare of the UK or its people.


----------



## Elles

And as soon as they can they’ll no doubt move to where it’s cheaper, brexit or no Brexit. Look at the other countries Tata have their operations. They’re only here in the first place because of agreements with the government in order to be allowed the take over. They use agency staff and we know what that means. It’s not ‘well paid with job security’ is it.

My point is, there’s all this environmental talk where loss of jobs doesn’t even figure, but then when it comes to brexit, it’s jobs first and they are suddenly really important. Even jobs working for massive polluting industries based in India.  I thought India is terrible, such low standards in comparison to the Eu and we don’t want deals with India.  

And who can afford a polluting Jag or Land Rover built in Slovakia by an Indian Company anyway. Not the poor. The jobs will still be there, it’ll just be other people doing them. Does it matter to you whether it’s British people, or Slovakians? I thought we wanted to be in it together, the Eu, not the U.K. Brits will just have to take the jobs that Europeans are abandoning when they leave Britain because of Brexit. Like the jobs in abattoirs and the other jobs Brits apparently won’t do.

Forgive my cynicism.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Ahem. I am here. You can both speak to me  :Hilarious


:Hilarious Don't you just hate it when people talk about you like you're not there!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I'm sorry but
> 
> There's a lot of bleating about democracy on this thread. If the nation feels that de-regulation is disagreeable then they will vote out the government at the next opportunity.
> 
> But I was under the impression looking at the way legislation works and what the government were planning on doing, I thought they were re-writing it and simply replacing EU specified laws with ones that are enshrined in UK law.
> 
> I thought, for instance that we have better animal welfare laws here than dictated by the EU - if not, why do we have to send veal calves abroad.
> 
> And animal rights seems far better in the UK than other European countries. Or is that just because those countries never complied with the laws as they were set.
> 
> For instance https://uk.whales.org/news/2017/11/...gnore-regulation-to-prevent-whale-and-dolphin UPSETTING IMAGES.


The tories have been busy deregulating as it is,( along with hammering the poor & disabled, destroying our NHS, slashing funding to public services, annihilating our badgers )-and they're still in power So I wouldn't bank on the tories being voted out anytime soon - a_nd_ they're gerrymandering!. . Maybe if the media did their job and held them to account things would be different, but that will never happen.

Even if the tories did copy & paste all those EU directives & regulations into UK legislation who would enforce it? In the EU the tories have voted against progressive policies which would protect our environment, they have been loathe to comply with EU legislation which protects it now. Do you really trust them to police it? lol

Take this example. Do you think the tories would have prosecuted themselves?

*UK taken to Europe's highest court over air pollution*

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...est-court-over-air-pollution?CMP=share_btn_tw
The EU sets minimum standards. There is absolutely nothing preventing a country from setting their standards even higher. And our countries standards arent all that.
*https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/11/separating-fact-from-fiction-on-animal-sentience

Q: Doesn't the UK have the best animal welfare in the world, so we don't need to worry?*
_
A: The UK does have higher standards of welfare than a lot of other countries. However, other countries are stronger on a number of issues, and it is complacent to believe that British legislation is inherently superior. For example Germany has recently committed to phasing out all cages for laying hens, Sweden has banned farrowing crates for pigs, and parts of Belgium are taking action on unstunned slaughter. In recent months we have been delighted to see the government making progress on issues like CCTV in slaughterhouses. However, if we lose this recognition of sentience and the obligation it places on governments, we will be in a weaker position_

We need a progressive government if we want progressive policies.

I'm well aware the EU is far from perfect, but we could reform it from within. We help nothing by being outside of it


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> There's a lot of bleating about democracy on this thread. If the nation feels that de-regulation is disagreeable then they will vote out the government at the next opportunity.


May's government aren't talking about deregulation. Rees-Mogg's & co are.

There's a big IF about whether Mogg will ever be in a position of power - perish the thought - but if he does, I wonder if the deregulation plans would actually make it into the manifesto. Or if they did whether they would be couched in terms that made them sound a better idea than they are: "We will ease trading conditions for business by cutting some of the EU's most damaging red tape, especially for small and medium sized businesses that form the bedrock of this country's economy." But details would be missing until they got into power, and even then I think they'd be surreptitious about it.

At risk of being ever so slightly provocative, we've seen how democracy can be manipulated when the politicians use anything from weasel words to downright porkies!


----------



## Elles

There is something that prevents countries setting higher standards. These standards have to be fair under the freedom of movement and fair trade between the Eu countries. Some standards and bans have to be agreed Eu wide if we want to keep them out of Britain and we already know we can’t unilaterally ban live export for slaughter. Something that will be even more important if, as threatened, ports are at a standstill and the motorways nothing but car parks.


----------



## Elles

We already talked about the air pollution thing in this thread. It’s mainly down to diesel cars, some of which is down to car manufacturers lying about emissions. ‘Dieselgate’ they called it and Volkswagen were a major player.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> There is something that prevents countries setting higher standards. These standards have to be fair under the freedom of movement and fair trade between the Eu countries. Some standards and bans have to be agreed Eu wide if we want to keep them out of Britain and we already know we can't unilaterally ban live export for slaughter. Something that will be even more important if, as threatened, ports are at a standstill and the motorways nothing but car parks.


Thats not true, the EU sets minimum standards - not maximum.. There is nothing to stop us implementing tougher animal welfare or environmental legislation.


----------



## Elles

It is true. We can not ban live export and we cannot ban things like the import of battery hen eggs from European companies, or fruit that’s been sprayed with insecticides we don’t want here, because that would be unfair to European companies.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Like Brexit or not, is this really the time for this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45488136


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws said:


> Like Brexit or not, is this really the time for this
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45488136


'One source said "people feel the leadership is out of touch and has lost the plot", but another said changing the leader "is a stupid idea now".'

Wow, don't they just sound like the epitome of professionalism? Inspirational


----------



## Elles

Leading Brexiteers such as JRM and Boris weren’t there, ‘it’s believed that up to’. Great reporting BBC. Sounds like one person said we want to oust TM and another said no we don’t.  

I dont think at the moment anyone else wants her job, do you?


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> 'One source said "people feel the leadership is out of touch and has lost the plot", but another said changing the leader "is a stupid idea now".'
> 
> Wow, don't they just sound like the epitome of professionalism? Inspirational


You know, I'm not entirely sure they ever HAD the plot to begin with - this last couple of years feels like one very Z rate improvised sketch show, to say the least.



Elles said:


> I dont think at the moment anyone else wants her job, do you?


No-one in their right mind would! Cameron knew what he was doing when he bailed, having watched the chalice being poisoned no way was he going to be drinking it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Austin Martin's are still made in the UK


I think you mean Aston Martin?

Very easy to confuse with Austin Morris from the days of BMG/British Leyland

Sigh of nostalgia.....


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Like Brexit or not, is this really the time for this


Best news I've heard all week! I couldn't care less who replaces her, they're as bad as each other.

I'll be the first to celebrate with a few beers.

With a bit of luck, it could backfire with a moderate replacement which is what happened when Thatcher was finally ousted.

I take this kind of news with a pinch of salt though. I'll believe it when I see it. May has an unfortunate habit of survival.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Best news I've heard all week! *I couldn't care less who replaces her,* they're as bad as each other.
> 
> I'll be the first to celebrate with a few beers.


I am surprised you said this. Here's why. Say JRM replaces her or Boris Johnson. They'd have the UK out of the EU without a further blink of an eye no further negotiations. Would you be drinking your beers in celebration then? And no it doesn't mean another GE something called the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011.


----------



## Elles

Theresa May is a moderate and the Eu say they are working to save her, they don’t want someone else.


----------



## Arnie83

A change of PM now doesn't change the Parliamentary maths regarding a hard / No Deal Brexit; the majority are still dead against it.

A Boris or Rees-Mogg PM would have to go to the country in the hope of increasing the majority with enough hard Brexit support to realise their nightmare dream.

The Fixed Term Parliament Act would be no problem at all, because Labour are already calling for a General Election and would support the call in a heartbeat.

This biggest problem for the ERG 'rebels' is that they would have distinct problems manoeuvring one of their own into the final 2 places for members to vote on, because for all their noise, they are not very popular within the Parliamentary party.


----------



## stockwellcat.

David Davis And Jacob Rees Mogg have said this lunch time that the TM must remain in her post as PM. JRM denies organising a coup against her for a leadership challenge. Top Tories and back benchers are coming forward in support of May to stay as PM.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-juncker-gives-final-state-of-eu-address-before-brexit-11495703


----------



## Arnie83

Incidentally, following on from yesterday's launch of the ludicrous "World Trade Deal" proposals from Rees-Mogg and the EFT, I posted this 6 weeks ago ...



Arnie83 said:


> I notice that the Express has stopped using the term "no deal" and appears to the using the term "World Trade Deal". Expect the Tory Brexiteers to be using the same phrase so that they can claim there is actually a deal, and one that is so much better than an EU deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn has so far failed to bring up Brexit in PMQ's and is instead has gone on the attack about Universal Credit (I know this subject is important but Brexit seems to be lower on his agenda).


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Off topic but it is about a Politian, just to say fair play to Tom Watson reversing his type 2 diabetes with a change of diet and exercise regime totally off medication now apparently, well done to him!


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Off topic but it is about a Politian, just to say fair play to Tom Watson reversing his type 2 diabetes with a change of diet and exercise regime totally off medication now apparently, well done to him!


Absolutely agree with you. I didn't recognise him as he has lost alot of weight. Well done to him.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn has so far failed to bring up Brexit in PMQ's and is instead has gone on the attack about Universal Credit (I know this subject is important but Brexit seems to be lower on his agenda).


Brexit has been a dodgy subject for Labour for a while, so easy for May to attack. They still say if they got into power they would leave the EU but negotiate all the benefits of the single market and customs union along with the ability to negotiate our own trade deals, which is completely impossible. And their official position is that nothing is off the table, including a second referendum if they can't get their favoured general election.

It might become clearer at their upcoming party conference, but I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## kimthecat

What a nightmare . The MPs are like characters from Alice in Wonderland , except its not “Curiouser and curiouser but crazier and crazier. 

We're all mad here said the Cheshire cat


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> What a nightmare . The MPs are like characters from Alice in Wonderland , except its not "Curiouser and curiouser but crazier and crazier.
> 
> We're all mad here said *the Cheshire cat*


But not many of us are smiling!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> We already talked about the air pollution thing in this thread. It's mainly down to diesel cars, some of which is down to car manufacturers lying about emissions. 'Dieselgate' they called it and Volkswagen were a major player.


There is nothing to stop our government taking action on diesel cars, but instead have kicked the can down the road rather that take the radical action required. There is nothing to stop our government taking action on air pollution, instead they have to be dragged to the European court - again.












Elles said:


> It is true. We can not ban live export and we cannot ban things like the import of battery hen eggs from European companies, or fruit that's been sprayed with insecticides we don't want here, because that would be unfair to European companies.


As you're so confident, please can I see your references that the EU prevents us raising welfare standards and environmental protections then?

There is absolutely nothing stopping us raising OUR standards Elles. EU regulations are minimum standards, countries are perfectly free to set their own higher standards. EU standards are far far higher than other trading blocs. And standards in the USA for example are dire, which is why chicken from the EU doesnt need to be washed with chlorine before its eaten. The EUs standards on pesticides are far superior to any other trading block. 82 pesticides used in the USA are banned in the EU. The US wont raise their standards to ours, our standards will have to drop to theirs. On the subject of pesticides are you not aware it was the tories opposed an EU ban on bee killing neonicotinoids?.

*MEPs Throw Out Tory Attempt To Prevent EU Ban On Bee Killing Pesticides*
https://www.plantbasednews.org/post...t-to-prevent-eu-ban-on-bee-killing-pesticides

I've seen many people say one of the main reasons they voted to leave the EU was because of live exports....

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 4h4 hours ago

_Brexiteers promised a ban on live animal exports.

Now @MichaelGove says it won't happen.

This Tory *Brexit *is built on lies. _

We urgently need a #PeoplesVote
*

Michael Gove shelves plans for ban on live animal exports @bbcr4today
*

*.*


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 5h5 hours ago

_Animals stuck on motorways, food exports delayed, protections not enforced.

Damning report from @NAOorguk raises serious doubts on @michaelgove's ability to deliver on "green Brexit" promises.

For our environment's sake, we need a #PeoplesVote now_

*Defra's readiness for no-deal Brexit pilloried by Whitehall auditors*
Michael Gove's department yet to comprehend scale of work it must complete, says NAO

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...loried-by-whitehall-auditors-michael-gove-nao


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am surprised you said this. Here's why. Say JRM replaces her or Boris Johnson. They'd have the UK out of the EU without a further blink of an eye no further negotiations. Would you be drinking your beers in celebration then? And no it doesn't mean another GE something called the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011.


In turn I'm surprised at your reaction!
As I mentioned before I'd rather see a no deal crash out than Theresa May getting what she wants which angers most Brexiters and Remainers' alike.

I would still celebrate her eventual overthrow regardless.



Elles said:


> Theresa May is a moderate and the Eu say they are working to save her, they don't want someone else.


 She may have fooled some including quarters in the EU into believing she's a centre right moderate, as Cameron certainly was, but she doesn't fool me.



stockwellcat. said:


> David Davis And Jacob Rees Mogg have said this lunch time that the TM must remain in her post as PM. JRM denies organising a coup against her for a leadership challenge. Top Tories and back benchers are coming forward in support of May to stay as PM.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-juncker-gives-final-state-of-eu-address-before-brexit-11495703


I guess it makes sense for JRM and Davis to say this. May would do anything to remain in power we know who's pulling the strings and who's to blame if things go badly wrong.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> You know, I'm not entirely sure they ever HAD the plot to begin with - this last couple of years feels like one very Z rate improvised sketch show, to say the least.
> 
> No-one in their right mind would! Cameron knew what he was doing when he bailed, having watched the chalice being poisoned no way was he going to be drinking it.


If Cameron was a PM he would be accused of sabotaging Brexit.

The truth is no matter who is at the helm if we are taking course to iceberg.
Question is only with what speed.

When our economy gets damaged and many will be affected I do feel for their pets, no matter what the owners voted if vet fees cannot be afforded by them. 
Austerity means animals will suffer.
Remember the fate of so many horses in 2008?
Owners who could not keep them happy to give them away free and still no takers.


----------



## KittenKong

And a round of applause from me too.















https://news.sky.com/story/applause...er-tells-uk-you-cant-pick-and-choose-11495799


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh it looks like there might be a leadership challenge taking place in the next 2 weeks because of her Chequers deal proposal.

Who can replace Theresa May (click on the news article to find out).
https://news.sky.com/story/who-could-replace-theresa-may-as-pm-11495995


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Yep.

_The Brexit referendum was due to Tory in-fighting. 
The result of the Brexit referendum was due to Tory in-fighting.
The absurdly early triggering of Article 50 was due to Tory in-fighting.
And now, instead of trying to undo some of the mess they've made, the Tories are fighting_.
(James O'B)

Selfish selfservatives dragging this country into the gutter.


----------



## noushka05

This is shameful.

*
Conservatives backs far-right government of Viktor Orban in crunch vote in European Parliament*
*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...european-parliament-theresa-may-a8534401.html

David Lammy‏Verified account @DavidLammy 2h2 hours ago

This is a new low, even for Theresa May's Conservative Party.
By voting to support Orban as he trashes press freedom and judicial independence, the Tories stand with Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Bannon, and all those who disdain the fundamental values of social & liberal democracy

*


----------



## KittenKong

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-...xit-divorce-bill-in-no-deal-scenario-11495906

Utterly pathetic. Resorting to bullying and blackmail isn't going to give her what she wants.

Nor will it do anything for the, "Deep and special relationship with the EU" she bleats on about and those countries they're pleading to do business with.

Never before have I seen this country look so stupid to the outside world. Nothing more than a laughing stock.

I would have thought Brexiters would gladly give the previously arranged withdrawal fee if it means a clean exit from the EU. Rather like I couldn't fully leave the bank I was unhappy with until I paid them what I owed years ago.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> This is shameful.
> 
> *Conservatives backs far-right government of Viktor Orban in crunch vote in European Parliament*


Shameful Indeed but not at all surprising. The move to the far right was always predicted in the event of a Brexit vote.

Which is why I've never understood many on the left support it.

Reminds me of a Panorama programme from the first 1975 referendum where Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were guests and agreed with each other over the EEC.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-...xit-divorce-bill-in-no-deal-scenario-11495906
> 
> Utterly pathetic. Resorting to bullying and blackmail isn't going to give her what she wants.
> 
> Nor will it do anything for the, "Deep and special relationship with the EU" she bleats on about and those countries they're pleading to do business with.
> 
> Never before have I seen this country look so stupid to the outside world. Nothing more than a laughing stock.
> 
> I would have thought Brexiters would gladly give the previously arranged withdrawal fee if it means a clean exit from the EU. Rather like I couldn't fully leave the bank I was unhappy with until I paid them what I owed years ago.


Didn't they threaten that before anyway, only to have to back down? It's a poor general who refuses to learn from previous failures...


----------



## Arnie83

I haven't seen the details that make up the £39 bn - which I'm sure is a somewhat flexible figure based in part on, say, predicted future costs of projects we've committed to support - but I would assume that there is a substantial core sum that we are obliged to pay and an amount that is not enforceable in a court but which we agreed to in order to move the talks on. If it all goes pear-shaped I can see the £39 bn being reduced, but not wiped out.

Certainly, though, anything that damages relations between the UK and the EU is bad news for both parties.

Edit: Dominic Raab has spoken ...

Raab also confirmed that the government would withhold a "very substantial" part of the £39bn divorce bill agreed with the EU if no deal could be reached.

He said: "We would always be mindful of our strict legal obligations, but we wouldn't pay the quantum which is currently under the withdrawal agreement."​
Of course, in politician-speak 'very substantial' could be anything from a couple of quid upwards!


----------



## KittenKong

I don't know if the source is pro or anti EU but a good video nevertheless.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2093731147622913


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I don't know if the source is pro or anti EU but a good video nevertheless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2093731147622913


Chequers is weird. It's clearly a basis for negotiation rather than a proposed final position, but I can't see which way it could go in order to placate sufficient MPs for it to get Parliamentary approval.

With May saying she won't give way on anything in it 'unless it's in the national interest' she clearly has every intention of doing just that, but on what, I wonder.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Chequers is weird. It's clearly a basis for negotiation rather than a proposed final position, but I can't see which way it could go in order to placate sufficient MPs for it to get Parliamentary approval.


Well if Parliament don't agree with the Chequers deal it's no deal. I don't know where you get the idea they get to vote on no deal it is automatic. Parliament couldn't reach a deal so the UK gets no deal with the EU. So if the Chequers plan gets rejected by Parliament that is what happens. No General Election and May stays PM. The Government is in advanced planning stages for no deal again MP's don't get to vote on this if they reject the Chequers plan.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well if Parliament don't agree with the Chequers deal it's no deal. *I don't know where you get the idea they get to vote on no deal it is automatic*. Parliament couldn't reach a deal so the UK gets no deal with the EU. So if the Chequers plan gets rejected by Parliament that is what happens. No General Election and May stays PM. The Government is in advanced planning stages for no deal again MP's don't get to vote on this if they reject the Chequers plan.


Source: New Statesman

Under the concessions granted by the government over the EU Withdrawal Bill, the Prime Minister must make a statement to MPs by 21 January 2019 if no Brexit deal has been reached. Within a fortnight, the House of Commons would be given the opportunity to vote on the government's plans, albeit in a motion expressed "in neutral terms" (such as "this House has considered the government's plans to leave the European Union without a withdrawal agreement").

Though this motion would not be legally binding, and would not force ministers to comply with MPs' wishes, it would have immense symbolic power. And in the extreme circumstances of no-deal, the government would be challenged to permit a non-neutral motion, while Labour could use its parliamentary time to table its own version.

In practice, then, politics would likely trump procedure. Faced with the prospect of no deal, the government would be pressured to grant one or more of the following: a soft Brexit (European Economic Area membership), a second referendum, or an early general election. As 2017 demonstrated, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 is no obstacle to the latter: parliament can be dissolved through a two-thirds majority, or through a vote of no confidence in the government (resulting in a new election unless an alternative administration wins the support of the Commons within 14 days).​
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...it-stop-mps-revolt-election-second-referendum


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Source: New Statesman
> 
> Under the concessions granted by the government over the EU Withdrawal Bill, the Prime Minister must make a statement to MPs by 21 January 2019 if no Brexit deal has been reached. Within a fortnight, the House of Commons would be given the opportunity to vote on the government's plans, albeit in a motion expressed "in neutral terms" (such as "this House has considered the government's plans to leave the European Union without a withdrawal agreement").
> *
> Though this motion would not be legally binding, and would not force ministers to comply with MPs' wishes, it would have immense symbolic power. *And in the extreme circumstances of no-deal, the government would be challenged to permit a non-neutral motion, while Labour could use its parliamentary time to table its own version.
> 
> In practice, then, politics would likely trump procedure. Faced with the prospect of no deal, the government would be pressured to grant one or more of the following: a soft Brexit (European Economic Area membership), a second referendum, or an early general election. As 2017 demonstrated, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 is no obstacle to the latter: parliament can be dissolved through a two-thirds majority, or through a vote of no confidence in the government (resulting in a new election unless an alternative administration wins the support of the Commons within 14 days).​
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...it-stop-mps-revolt-election-second-referendum


But the vote in Parliament is none binding from what this news reporter says so May will just go ahead with it anyway. If no deal is reached what way do you think the hardline Brexitiers that are threatening to topple May will vote? For no deal of course as this is what they want. Also think about what this reporter has said, the Conservative Party whips will be out to push through the no deal vote. No General Election. May is under no obligation to call one before 2022. The majority of the House of Commons would have to vote a vote of no confidence against May (there is 650 MP's currently in the House of Commons and the Brexitiers would soon back her at the hint of a no deal scenario).


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well if Parliament don't agree with the Chequers deal it's no deal. I don't know where you get the idea they get to vote on no deal it is automatic. Parliament couldn't reach a deal so the UK gets no deal with the EU. So if the Chequers plan gets rejected by Parliament that is what happens. No General Election and May stays PM. The Government is in advanced planning stages for no deal again MP's don't get to vote on this if they reject the Chequers plan.


At least some will be happy with no deal. No one will be with May's plan. However long people will remain happy is another matter!

I wouldn't put it past May to call a general election sooner than 2022 though, especially with the proposed boundary changes which would have won her a majority of at least 16 if already in force at the time of the snap election.

Corbyn will lose his Islington seat as the constituency will no longer exist.

With Labour and the Lib Dems set to suffer the most, if this is not Gerrymandering please tell us what it is .....

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-and-lib-dems-biggest-losers-under-boundary-change-plan-11494712


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> At least some will be happy with no deal. No one will be with May's plan. However long people will remain happy is another matter!
> 
> I wouldn't put it past May to call a general election sooner than 2022 though, especially with the proposed boundary changes which would have won her a majority of at least 16 if already in force at the time of the snap election.
> 
> Corbyn will lose his Islington seat as the constituency will no longer exist.
> 
> With Labour and the Lib Dems set to suffer the most, if this is not Gerrymandering please tell us what it is .....
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/labour-and-lib-dems-biggest-losers-under-boundary-change-plan-11494712


No one will go for the Chequers deal but if it is voted down in the House of Commons it becomes no deal. The brexitier MP's will soon change their minds then and back her one would think.

The next GE will see labour lose the most seats so they don't stand a chance of winning. Yes I know Jeremy Corbyn will lose his seat. The only party I can see gaining seats is the DUP as I read they will gain 2 seats.

This was started under Cameron if you remember to reduce the amount of MP's in Parliament as there is to many. The new Boundary Changes at the next GE will reduce the size of Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives. There is currently 650 MP's serving in Parliament and the boundary changes will make that 600.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No one will go for the Chequers deal but if it is voted down in the House of Commons it becomes no deal. The brexitier MP's will soon change their minds then and back her one would think.
> 
> The next GE will see labour lose the most seats so they don't stand a chance of winning. Yes I know Jeremy Corbyn will lose his seat. The only party I can see gaining seats is the DUP as I read they will gain 2 seats.
> 
> This was started under Cameron if you remember to reduce the amount of MP's in Parliament as there is to many. The new Boundary Changes at the next GE will reduce the size of Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives. There is currently 650 MP's serving in Parliament and the boundary changes will make that 600.


The tories are rigging the next election. The tories will lose 10 seats, labour 30. They will lock themselves in power forever because people in the tory shires vote for them no matter how cruel or how sinister their policies are. We are going to be well and truly screwed.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well* if Parliament don't agree with the Chequers deal it's no deal*. I don't know where you get the idea they get to vote on no deal it is automatic. Parliament couldn't reach a deal so the UK gets no deal with the EU. So if the Chequers plan gets rejected by Parliament that is what happens. No General Election and May stays PM. The Government is in advanced planning stages for no deal again MP's don't get to vote on this if they reject the Chequers plan.


I'm sure you'll be pleased about that SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The tories are rigging the next election. The tories will lose 10 seats, labour 30. They will lock themselves in power forever because people in the tory shires vote for them no matter how cruel or how sinister their policies are. We are going to be well and truly screwed.


I know about the Boundary Changes I discussed it with arnie the other day on here (Post 549).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I know about the Boundary Changes I discussed it with arnie the other day on here (Post 549).


You're not concerned the tories are locking themselves into power?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Theresa May is a moderate and the Eu say they are working to save her, they don't want someone else.


What strange times we live in for Theresa May to be considered a 'moderate'. Its frightening how far to the right that overton window has been dragged .


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No one will go for the Chequers deal but if it is voted down in the House of Commons it becomes no deal. The brexitier MP's will soon change their minds then and back her one would think.
> 
> The next GE will see labour lose the most seats so they don't stand a chance of winning. Yes I know Jeremy Corbyn will lose his seat. The only party I can see gaining seats is the DUP as I read they will gain 2 seats.
> 
> This was started under Cameron if you remember to reduce the amount of MP's in Parliament as there is to many. The new Boundary Changes at the next GE will reduce the size of Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives. There is currently 650 MP's serving in Parliament and the boundary changes will make that 600.


It doesn't make it right though does it.

Image the outcry if Blair or Brown tried this?

Always one rule for the Tories and another for anyone else..


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It doesn't make it right though does it.
> 
> Image the outcry if Blair or Brown tried this?
> 
> Always one rule for the Tories and another for anyone else..


Alright a straight questions for you and it requires an easy answer. Who then if you feel the Tories are no good should be in power? Labour want Brexit to mind you and are the only party big enough to take on the Tories. So the choice in this moment in time if there was a GE would be a Tory Brexit or a dodgy Labour Brexit (I say dodgy because Labour want to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union and strike new trade deals which would be impossible). Remain voters keep banging on they want a GE well both of the big parties Conservatives and Labour are offering Brexit so what would be gained from a GE? Brexit!

A GE will also weaken the Labour party considerably with the Boundary Changes. So why are remainers keen on a GE? I'd personally be trying to avoid a GE if I was a remainer. Len McClusky made it clear the other day to Labour MP's to back Corbyn or leave and said that the Labour MP's should back Labour's version of Brexit or leave the party.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> What strange times we live in for Theresa May to be considered a 'moderate'. Its frightening how far to the right that overton window has been dragged .


This power lock came on when Corbin sabotaged Remain and latervwhipped Labour to pass Article 50 and hand power to far right.
I can only call it an act of betrayal of the people who Labour should fight for.

Even if those people were befuddled by lies and demagoguery.

Just trying to please them hoping that Brexit will go bad, Tories get the blame and pendulum will swing to Labour?

Knowing that Brexit will go bad.

Not only self serving rich put own interests above that of the nation.

This is why what kind of alternative in Labour in case of GE?

I have no clue if they want to stop Brexit, or have s soft one or just get in power?

Tories did what I expected of them, BoJo JRM and the lot.

The villains were well cast.

I need a hero!!!

But where is s party that has a plan to get us out of that madness???
Pretty soon we might be left with Tory A and Tory B. That is all.


----------



## Arnie83

Wrt No Deal we should remember that while Rees-Mogg and the ERG rebels want that outcome, there are only about 80 of them at most. The vast majority of the 650 MPs recognise that No Deal is the worst possible economic outcome. They will find a way to avoid it, even if it means supporting May's revised Chequers Brino.


----------



## Arnie83

Labour will only get into power if they form an election pact with the other left leaning parties. They've lost dozens of seats in Scotland to the SNP and will lose dozens more through the boundary changes. No way can they win, with a hung Parliament the best they can hope for. Not that they'll admit any such thing.

Those who oppose Chequers and - even more - No Deal, want a referendum on the single issue of the Brexit deal, not a general election which is muddied by so much else.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Labour will only get into power if they form an election pact with the other left leaning parties.


With who though? Labour wants to leave the EU to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If there was a GE, Labour loses 30 seats. Lib Dems lose seats as well so how can they form a new Government? It would not work. Even if they made a pact with other parties there wouldn't be enough to form a new Government as the Boundary Changes take care of that.

It has been ruled out by Labour and the Conservatives Article 50 will not be revoked or the referendum overturned.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> With who though? Labour wants to leave the EU to.


It was a general comment, not specifically Brexit related.

But whenever the next GE comes along, who knows what the political situation will be. If there are votes to be had it's amazing how flexible a political party's policies can be!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It was a general comment, not specifically Brexit related.
> 
> But whenever the next GE comes along, who knows what the political situation will be. If there are votes to be had it's amazing how flexible a political party's policies can be!


If the Brexitiers managed to oust May which I doubt will happen as she has a lot of supporters in her party who came forward yesterday, Labour wouldn't stand a chance they need to get rid of Corbyn first.

I think this election you are hoping for won't happen until after Brexit has long since happened some time in the [distant] future.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM in my opinion made the Chequers deal impossible to back by the UK Parliament and the EU so a no deal is achieved and in doing this she has kept her promise at her Lancaster House speach. That is the way I see things. She knows eactly what she is doing and knows a no deal is the only option and that is why she made the Chequers Deal impossible to back.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Alright a straight questions for you and it requires an easy answer. Who then if you feel the Tories are no good should be in power? Labour want Brexit to mind you and are the only party big enough to take on the Tories. So the choice in this moment in time if there was a GE would be a Tory Brexit or a dodgy Labour Brexit (I say dodgy because Labour want to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union and strike new trade deals which would be impossible). Remain voters keep banging on they want a GE well both of the big parties Conservatives and Labour are offering Brexit so what would be gained from a GE? Brexit!
> 
> A GE will also weaken the Labour party considerably with the Boundary Changes. So why are remainers keen on a GE? I'd personally be trying to avoid a GE if I was a remainer. Len McClusky made it clear the other day to Labour MP's to back Corbyn or leave and said that the Labour MP's should back Labour's version of Brexit or leave the party.


I'm taking about politics in general, not Brexit. I've already expressed my opinion on Labour which I won't repeat.

Having said that, in the unlikely event they change their tone and back a people's vote over the final Brexit deal I might re consider, but I won't hold my breath.

I was once accused of supporting Corbyn through not supporting Theresa May. "Jeremy Corbyn's a Communist" I was told by a Daily Mail reader.

My response was, "OK, he's a Communist, but Theresa May's a fascist, I don't like any extremes".

Anyway, to the point Unfairness in British politics is nothing new. I have a mid 1960s BBC handbook which mentioned the Tories and Labour were allowed more Party Political Broadcasts than the Liberal Party.

Recognition of two party politics 50 years ago with the Liberal Party deemed insignificant.

Now it's the case of one party politics. Labour under Corbyn and his support for Brexit hasn't helped them of course but to re-arrange political boundaries so the leader of the opposition loses his seat can only be suggested as personal. Love or loath Corbyn he is democratically elected as an MP and as leader of the Labour Party.

It was the same with Ken Livingstone and the GLC. The six Metropolitan County Councils were Labour controlled. Thatcher had them abolished in 1986.

There is already much unfairness with the British first past the post system.

It stinks. No other words for it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If the Brexitiers managed to oust May which I doubt will happen as she has a lot of supporters in her party who came forward yesterday, Labour wouldn't stand a chance they need to get rid of Corbyn first.
> 
> I think this election you are hoping for won't happen until after Brexit has long since happened some time in the [distant] future.


I'm not hoping for an election. To have an election before March next year would be incredibly irresponsible.

I'm hoping for a democratic referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can pass judgement on the actuality of Brexit. And whatever they choose, based on the facts and their feelings, then fine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not hoping for an election. To have an election before March next year would be incredibly irresponsible.
> 
> I'm hoping for a democratic referendum on the negotiated deal so that the People can pass judgement on the actuality of Brexit. And whatever they choose, based on the facts and their feelings, then fine.


But without going over old ground we have already had a democratic referendum/peoples vote in 2016. Some people couldn't behave responsibly then (ticking both boxes on the ballot sheet, did not take it seriously etc) so what makes you think they will act responsibly and act seriously now because they couldn't first time around knowing it was a once in a generation vote and there was to be no more referendums on the issue as advertised by the Government? Serious question. Labour really needs to change its position on Brexit as they also want Brexit to happen currently, there version of it though. But with Corbyn at the helm I doubt they will change there position.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But without going over old ground we have already had a democratic referendum/peoples vote in 2016.


I don't consider that referendum to have been democratic. People didn't have enough facts. Purely my opinion.



stockwellcat. said:


> Some people couldn't behave responsibly then (ticking both boxes on the ballot sheet, did not take it seriously etc) so what makes you think they will act responsibly and act seriously now because they couldn't first time around knowing it was a once in a generation vote and there was to be no more referendums on the issue as advertised by the Government? Serious question.


My comment about irresponsibility was referring to the government potentially calling another general election.

But in answer to your question, I don't have an issue with people voting sensibly or otherwise. They are at liberty to do what they want. My problem comes when they are asked to vote without having the facts available to them. When the deal is negotiated many more facts will be available.



stockwellcat. said:


> Labour really needs to change its position on Brexit as they also want Brexit to happen currently, there version of it though. But with Corbyn at the helm I doubt they will change there position.


Labour are committed to *delivering* Brexit, albeit their fantasy version of it. I don't actually think the majority of the Labour MPs actually *want* it, but they have said they will respect the Will of the People. Hopefully, in a few months' time, they will support asking the People what their current Will is in light of all the new information, and will form their policies accordingly.


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 8h8 hours ago

_Govt basically has no plan for replacing environmental protections from next March. 
From saving our wild places to protecting endangered species, cleaning up our oceans to improving air quality - our natural world would be left exposed & under serious threat after no-deal Brexit_


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I don't consider that referendum to have been democratic. People didn't have enough facts. Purely my opinion.
> 
> My comment about irresponsibility was referring to the government potentially calling another general election.
> 
> But in answer to your question, I don't have an issue with people voting sensibly or otherwise. They are at liberty to do what they want. My problem comes when they are asked to vote without having the facts available to them. When the deal is negotiated many more facts will be available.
> 
> Labour are committed to *delivering* Brexit, albeit their fantasy version of it. I don't actually think the majority of the Labour MPs actually *want* it, but they have said they will respect the Will of the People. Hopefully, in a few months' time, they will support asking the People what their current Will is in light of all the new information, and will form their policies accordingly.


Nah.
Labour MP's where told to back Corbyn or leave. The man doesn't know what he is doing himself. If you are expecting a new referendum in a few months it won't happen.

1) It takes months to plan one and both Houses of Parliament have to agree on it and get Royal Assent.
2) Then there's the campaigning.
3) There isn't enough time left unless the EU agrees to extend article 50 if May requests it and that won't happen.
4) Parliament also breaks off for Christmas and no work is done until mid January.

Just a few of the obsticles in the way.

If they oust May we are in GE territory which has already been discussed. It will weaken Labour and any chances of them getting in power.

If the Chequers Deal is rejected we are in GE territory and as already pointed out this will weaken any chances of Labour getting into power.

So any referendum remainers want at the moment is pure fantasy as the clock is ticking.

Parliament as a whole are in a catch 22 situation.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So any referendum remainers want at the moment is pure fantasy as the clock is ticking.


I only hope you get what you voted for. At least I'll know when project fear becomes our reality I fought against brexit to the bitter end 

*Christopher Wylie ️‍*‏Verified account @chrisinsilico Sep 2
T_he real "betrayal of democracy" is moving forward with a Brexit that was won by cheating, data crimes, Russian collusion, money laundering and the largest breach of campaign finance laws in British history._


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Nah.
> Labour MP's where told to back Corbyn or leave. The man doesn't know what he is doing himself. If you are expecting a new referendum in a few months it won't happen.
> 
> 1) It takes months to plan one and both Houses of Parliament have to agree on it and get Royal Assent.
> 2) Then there's the campaigning.
> 3) There isn't enough time left unless the EU agrees to extend article 50 if May requests it and that won't happen.
> 4) Parliament also breaks off for Christmas and no work is done until mid January.
> 
> Just a few of the obsticles in the way.
> 
> If they oust May we are in GE territory which has already been discussed. It will weaken Labour and any chances of them getting in power.
> 
> If the Chequers Deal is rejected we are in GE territory and as already pointed out this will weaken any chances of Labour getting into power.
> 
> So any referendum remainers want at the moment is pure fantasy as the clock is ticking.
> 
> Parliament as a whole are in a catch 22 situation.


Well we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 4h4 hours ago
Good. Finally. Due to "lack of a viable exit from the EU" Labour will vote against any foreseeable May deal.









https://www.ft.com/content/31653510-b6a6-11e8-b3ef-799c8613f4a1


----------



## noushka05

This made me smile lol

_*
It must be a very confusing time for Mail readers.

*_
Britain faces recession, a plunging pound and soaring prices in the shops after a no deal Brexit, credit ratings agency Moody's warns 


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...soaring-prices.html?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> This made me smile lol
> 
> _*
> It must be a very confusing time for Mail readers.
> 
> *_
> Britain faces recession, a plunging pound and soaring prices in the shops after a no deal Brexit, credit ratings agency Moody's warns


With all this "Project Fear" according to Brexiters coming from Brexit supporting MPs and the press I often wonder if this is an attempt by them to condition the public into backing Theresa May's Chequers plan? Note it's always about a no deal Brexit, not Brexit.

She's after her Falklands moment, this could be it but like most things TM attempts it has a habit of backfiring badly yet she survives all the same.

It's gratifying to note many Brexiters as well as Remainers oppose May's plan in equal measures despite the obviously very different reasons.


----------



## KittenKong

This would appear to support what I mentioned above.

As reported by the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...servative-mps-traitors?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## Arnie83

This is interesting, if you're a little sad like me!

*How could a second Brexit referendum be triggered?*

https://constitution-unit.com/2018/09/07/how-could-a-second-brexit-referendum-be-triggered/


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This would appear to support what I mentioned above.
> 
> As reported by the Guardian.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...servative-mps-traitors?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> View attachment 368339


A significant change of position by the new Mail editor.


----------



## rona

This thread has moved into fantasy again 

He said, she said ,this that and fairy stories


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> This thread has moved into fantasy again
> 
> He said, she said ,this that and fairy stories


What are you referring to specifically?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> A significant change of position by the new Mail editor.


Out of the frying pan and into the fire as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> This thread has moved into fantasy again
> 
> He said, she said ,this that and fairy stories


You should be saying that to the politicians and the media.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Problem for me - if Labour rejects Chequers then in fact we might end with what extreme Tories want : no deal.
Which will be a total disaster.

So Labour position in fact is supporting the extreme Tories and a disaster of no deal?

I don’t see any clear message there. No Chequers so then what?
After all Labour also pushed through Article 50.

So in fact Labour pushed for self made recession though before referendum they supported mainly Remain.

Then Corbyn that pushed his party for Brexit was for a time celebrated winner of a lost election.

I am totally dazed and confused.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't know why you are all worried.

Labour is rejecting Chequers Deal and any deal the Government put forward delivering what was voted for. Brexit. The Brexit that was voted for and the Brexit Cameron planned to deliver himself before running away from it all.

So the Brexit the 17.4 million voted for will be delivered and it looks like the EU aren't going to get all of the money they are now demanding is paid regardless.

It's great news Labour is not backing the Chequers Deal don't you think? The majority of the Conservatives aren't backing it either. Fantastic news if you ask me. It was always going to be no deal.

Also the EU have told Raab that if all the money (£39billion) isn't paid there will be no deal.

If you ask me May knew what she was doing when she presented the Chequers deal and knew that no one would back it and her alternative, that being no deal would happen.


----------



## Happy Paws2

A No Deal would be a disaster, we need some stability, not cut loose to flounder around looking for deals with anyone we can good or bad. It just doesn't make any sense.

We aren't going to leave and the next day sign deals with other countries it just doesn't work like that., some deals will take months if not years if at all in some cases and how much are they going to cost us.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> A No Deal would be a disaster, we need some stability, not cut loose to flounder around looking for deals with anyone we can good or bad. It just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> We aren't going to leave and the next day sign deals with other countries it just doesn't work like that., some deals will take months if not years if at all in some cases and how much are they going to cost us.


Tell the Labour Party that. They have decided to vote against the Chequers Deal, the deal that would keep the UK in regularitry alignment with the EU.

If you ask me the Labour Party have not thought this through.

If you read my post above you May is a very clever lady if you think about it as she is achieving what the Brexiters want.

Labour is so desperate for a General Election that they have lost touch with what they are intending to do eg put the country into a no deal situation.

So I must saulte the Labour party and the majority of the Conservatives for delivering what was always said was going to happen. A no deal.

The Second Referendum seems so far in the distance now as it won't happen if the above happens. The UK will be out before the New Year or even Christmas if Labour carry out there threat to vote against any deal the Government present.

Raab might even have us out by Christmas by doing what he is doing. Threatening not to pay the whole of the £39billion. The EU have already said if it isn't all paid there will be no deal. Barnier made this threat yesterday. If the EU declare a no deal then that bypasses our Parliament. The Salzburg EU get together sounds like it will be interesting now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Tell the Labour Party that. They have decided to vote against the Chequers Deal, the deal that would keep the UK in regularitry alignment with the EU.
> 
> If you ask me the Labour Party have not thought this through.
> 
> If you read my post above you May is a very clever lady if you think about it as she is achieving what the Brexiters want.
> 
> Labour is so desperate for a General Election that they have lost touch with what they are intending to do eg put the country into a no deal situation.
> 
> So I must saulte the Labour party and the majority of the Conservatives for delivering what was always said was going to happen. A no deal.
> 
> The Second Referendum seems so far in the distance now as it won't happen if the above happens. The UK will be out before the New Year or even Christmas if Labour carry out there threat to vote against any deal the Government present.
> 
> Raab might even have us out by Christmas by doing what he is doing. Threatening not to pay the whole of the £39billion. The EU have already said if it isn't all paid there will be no deal. Barnier made this threat yesterday. If the EU declare a no deal then that bypasses our Parliament. The Salzburg EU get together sounds like it will be interesting now.


To be honest, I don't care anymore If the country sinks or swims, at my age and with my health the country can go to hell in a hand basket if it so wishes I'm past caring, but on a positive note the health services is going to get millions.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't know why you are all worried.
> 
> Labour is rejecting Chequers Deal and any deal the Government put forward delivering what was voted for. Brexit. The Brexit that was voted for and the Brexit Cameron planned to deliver himself before running away from it all......
> 
> It's great news Labour is not backing the Chequers Deal don't you think? The majority of the Conservatives aren't backing it either. Fantastic news if you ask me. It was always going to be no deal.
> 
> Also the EU have told Raab that if all the money (£39billion) isn't paid there will be no deal.
> 
> If you ask me May knew what she was doing when she presented the Chequers deal and knew that no one would back it and her alternative, that being no deal would happen.


For very different reasons I'm pleased as well. However, I think May believes in her plan through typical British arrogance that they would conceed to her demands thus seriously weakens the EU and would threaten its future.

Yes, I believe she knows what's she's doing as well but it looks like her plan is backfiring.

So if you believe 17+ million voted for this they'll get a taste of it.

I wonder how many of the 17+ million will still embrace this two years from now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> For very different reasons I'm pleased as well. However, I think May believes in her plan through typical British arrogance that they would conceed to her demands thus seriously weakens the EU and would threaten its future.
> 
> Yes, I believe she knows what's she's doing as well but it looks like her plan is backfiring.
> 
> So if you believe 17+ million voted for this they'll get a taste of it.
> 
> I wonder how many of the 17+ million will still embrace this two years from now?


You totally misinterpreted what I said.
I am applauding Labour and the majority of the Conservatives because they are playing straight into May's back up plan which is *No Deal *by voting down her Chequers Plan*. *It was always going to be a* No Deal *Brexit*.*

Labour have not thought this through at all as they are voting down the Chequers Deal which will automatically put the UK in a no deal situation. A General Election will weaken Labour and yet they are so desperate to have one according to Emily Thornbury which will make them have less seats in Parliament with the Boundary Changes.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So the Brexit the 17.4 million voted for will be delivered


I really don't think we should go round the loop again of what the astoundingly homogeneous 17.4 million people voted for.

The Labour party conference will, I think, shed a lot more light on the potential options going forwards.

I think we can be fairly confident that they have been thinking things through, though I worry about the political game they appear to be playing with the economic future of the country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *the political game they appear to be playing with the economic future of the country*.


Which is why Labour will never win any future election.

Thank you for your opinions. But I will stick with my own opinions like you are doing with yours.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You totally misinterpreted what I said.
> I am applauding Labour and the majority of the Conservatives because they are playing straight into May's back up plan which is *No Deal *by voting down her Chequers Plan*. *It was always going to be a* No Deal *Brexit*.*
> 
> Labour have not thought this through at all as they are voting down the Chequers Deal which will automatically put the UK in a no deal situation. A General Election will weaken Labour and yet they are so desperate to have one according to Emily Thornbury which will make them have less seats in Parliament with the Boundary Changes.


Bye bye NHS. I'm sure brexit will be worth sacrificing our greatest asset for.

https://juniordoctorblog.com/2018/09/08/brexit-and-the-nhs-just-the-facts-part-4-show-me-the-money/
*
How does a No Deal Brexit change any of this?*

In addition to the additional costs to import medicines and isotopes across new borders, and the agency fees to fill vacancies we cannot recruit to, No Deal Brexit will hit the NHS in the one area it is threadbare; it's pocket.

A No Deal scenario effectively removes the U.K. from the free trade area of the EU, an economy worth 22% of global GDP, and the 60+ countries the EU has FTA agreements with: Canada and Japan most recently. Once out of FTA trading these countries would be obligated to charge tariffs on exported goods and supply chains based in the U.K including car manufacturing, farm produce and pharmaceuticals. With loss of the financial ability to "passport" services to the EU the financial services sector, 6.5% of our economy, would be hit very hard. The Department for Brexit's own figures estimate a No Deal to cost £159bn to the U.K. economy by 2030. That's the entire NHS England and U.K. schools budget combined


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Problem for me - if Labour rejects Chequers then in fact we might end with what extreme Tories want : no deal.
> Which will be a total disaster.
> 
> So Labour position in fact is supporting the extreme Tories and a disaster of no deal?
> 
> I don't see any clear message there. No Chequers so then what?
> After all Labour also pushed through Article 50.
> 
> So in fact Labour pushed for self made recession though before referendum they supported mainly Remain.
> 
> Then Corbyn that pushed his party for Brexit was for a time celebrated winner of a lost election.
> 
> I am totally dazed and confused.


Check this out Cheeky.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Bye bye NHS. I'm sure brexit will be worth sacrificing our greatest asset for.
> 
> https://juniordoctorblog.com/2018/09/08/brexit-and-the-nhs-just-the-facts-part-4-show-me-the-money/
> *
> How does a No Deal Brexit change any of this?*
> 
> In addition to the additional costs to import medicines and isotopes across new borders, and the agency fees to fill vacancies we cannot recruit to, No Deal Brexit will hit the NHS in the one area it is threadbare; it's pocket.
> 
> A No Deal scenario effectively removes the U.K. from the free trade area of the EU, an economy worth 22% of global GDP, and the 60+ countries the EU has FTA agreements with: Canada and Japan most recently. Once out of FTA trading these countries would be obligated to charge tariffs on exported goods and supply chains based in the U.K including car manufacturing, farm produce and pharmaceuticals. With loss of the financial ability to "passport" services to the EU the financial services sector, 6.5% of our economy, would be hit very hard. The Department for Brexit's own figures estimate a No Deal to cost £159bn to the U.K. economy by 2030. That's the entire NHS England and U.K. schools budget combined


Wow really
:Nailbiting


It's all guessing Noush. Until it happens nobody knows.

Chris Grayling said today every adult in the UK will get a cash payment when we Brexit. Yippie. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

From the Woofarendum FB page.
Brilliant!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Wow really
> :Nailbiting


Oh I know you're not interested in evidence or warnings from experts. Most of us rely on the NHS and one day you might find yourself needing it. Maybe only then will you reflect upon the way you casually dismissed experts who warned us no deal brexit would be catastrophic for our health service.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Oh I know you're not interested in evidence or warnings from experts. Most of us rely on the NHS and one day you might find yourself needing it. Maybe only then will you reflect upon the way you casually dismissed experts who warned us no deal brexit would be catastrophic for our health service.


It's their job to be gloomy and try and scare the nation. When they are proven wrong they don't appologise.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


Great. I can vote leave again like millions of others will like last time. Bring it on 

Obviously the answer given last time was not heard properly by some remainers.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> It's great news Labour is not backing the Chequers Deal don't you think? *The majority of the Conservatives aren't backing it either*. Fantastic news if you ask me. It was always going to be no deal.


Where has it been revealed/suggested that the majority of Conservatives are against May`s Chequers plan?

I`ve seen several news items suggesting a figure of around 80 `rebel` MPs are against her plan but I have not seen any that claim the majority of Conservative are against it.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Problem for me - if Labour rejects Chequers then in fact we might end with what extreme Tories want : no deal.
> Which will be a total disaster.
> 
> So Labour position in fact is supporting the extreme Tories and a disaster of no deal?
> 
> I don't see any clear message there. No Chequers so then what?
> After all Labour also pushed through Article 50.
> 
> So in fact Labour pushed for self made recession though before referendum they supported mainly Remain.
> 
> Then Corbyn that pushed his party for Brexit was for a time celebrated winner of a lost election.
> 
> I am totally dazed and confused.


Labour are very much against a No Deal scenario, as will be reiterated at their upcoming conference, as are most Tories.

Labour want a general election, and their thinking will be: vote down the revised Chequers deal, leaving May with the options of a GE, a No Deal, or letting the people decide in a referendum.

No-one except a few ERG extremists wants a No Deal, and they only want it to ward off the possibility of losing their prize. (The transition period where nothing changes represents, for them, a small but real 20 month risk that everything is called off and we 'rejoin'.)

May won't want a GE, because it would be pretty much certain that it would require her resignation, but might not have a choice. She can avoid the GE, and keep her job, by going back to the People, but the ERG-type Tories can't risk that because the People might have changed their minds, and must therefore not be asked.

How it plays out is anyone's guess, but widespread comment in the media by those who are knowledgeable in such matters is along those lines.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Chris Grayling said today every adult in the UK will get a cash payment when we Brexit. Yippie. :Hilarious


He made a suggestion in a Cabinet meeting that was met with 'astonishment'. It isn't going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You totally misinterpreted what I said.
> I am applauding Labour and the majority of the Conservatives because they are playing straight into May's back up plan which is *No Deal *by voting down her Chequers Plan*. *It was always going to be a* No Deal *Brexit*.*
> 
> Labour have not thought this through at all as they are voting down the Chequers Deal which will automatically put the UK in a no deal situation. A General Election will weaken Labour and yet they are so desperate to have one according to Emily Thornbury which will make them have less seats in Parliament with the Boundary Changes.


I don't think I have intentionally. The Tories have already won the next general election unless some miracle happens.

Obviously, like yourself I cannot read into Theresa May's mind but I don't agree she's setting herself up for no deal. I honestly believe she's convinced the EU will conceed to her demands at the last minute.

Why do you think the pro May backing Brexiters are bringing up what you'd call, "Project Fear" in the event of a no deal Brexit? I'm sure it's an attempt to get people on her side regardless of how they voted.

"Back my plan and I'll save Britain from ruin".


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Great. I can vote leave again like millions of others will like last time. Bring it on
> 
> Obviously the answer given last time was not heard properly by some remainers.


At least the warnings are now loud and clear. I don't recall the pathetic remain campaign warning about stockpiling food and medicines in 2016.

People will also know they'll be no £350m for the NHS.

So, if people still want to vote leave, let them.

As for your last paragraph Farage said 52-48% wouldn't be the end of the matter. So it wasn't only some Remainers who didn't hear the answer properly.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


Very much along the lines of what I outlined above, and of the piece by constitution-unit.com that I posted yesterday. Certainly the possibility of asking the People in a new referendum is growing.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It's their job to be gloomy and try and scare the nation. When they are proven wrong they don't appologise.


You have to ask yourself seeing the Tories will be in power for at least another decade with a large shift to the right, is the NHS safe in their hands?

Nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> You have to ask yourself seeing the Tories will be in power for at least another decade with a large shift to the right, is the NHS safe in their hands?
> 
> Nothing to do with Brexit.


:Jawdrop:Woot don't say that


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I don't think I have intentionally. The Tories have already won the next general election unless some miracle happens.
> 
> Obviously, like yourself I cannot read into Theresa May's mind but I don't agree she's setting herself up for no deal. I honestly believe she's convinced the EU will conceed to her demands at the last minute.
> 
> Why do you think the pro May backing Brexiters are bringing up what you'd call, "Project Fear" in the event of a no deal Brexit? I'm sure it's an attempt to get people on her side regardless of how they voted.
> 
> "Back my plan and I'll save Britain from ruin".


I think this is essentially absolutely right, and that the EU will be working with May in reaching an agreement that both sides (UK & EU) can just about live with, though it will include lots of fudged areas that will be left to post-Brexit negotiations.

The ERG types know that No Deal is a disaster, which is why they are now calling it the "World Trade Option Deal" and trying to make out it isn't a problem at all, which is a straight up lie.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> Where has it been revealed/suggested that the majority of Conservatives are against May`s Chequers plan?
> 
> I`ve seen several news items suggesting a figure of around 80 `rebel` MPs are against her plan but I have not seen any that claim the majority of Conservative are against it.


Even if they were I doubt the majority would defy the whip from past experience.

Party before country as always with May surviving to fight another day....


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> :Jawdrop:Woot don't say that


Someone please prove me wrong!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Someone please prove me wrong!


Sorry, no can do!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Labour are very much against a No Deal scenario, as will be reiterated at their upcoming conference, as are most Tories.
> 
> Labour want a general election, and their thinking will be: vote down the revised Chequers deal, leaving May with the options of a GE, a No Deal, or letting the people decide in a referendum.
> 
> No-one except a few ERG extremists wants a No Deal, and they only want it to ward off the possibility of losing their prize. (The transition period where nothing changes represents, for them, a small but real 20 month risk that everything is called off and we 'rejoin'.)
> 
> May won't want a GE, because it would be pretty much certain that it would require her resignation, but might not have a choice. She can avoid the GE, and keep her job, by going back to the People, but the ERG-type Tories can't risk that because the People might have changed their minds, and must therefore not be asked.
> 
> How it plays out is anyone's guess, but widespread comment in the media by those who are knowledgeable in such matters is along those lines.


I remember when most of Labour before referendum were anti Brexit, many of the Tories and all Lib Dem SNP.
Look now - who expected Labour whipped to pass Article 50? Hoping what for ? No Brexit and freaking mess - their target was to win GE, if Brexit was helping so be it!!!
Who cares about NHS , people and other tonterías.
Their leader says one thing, does the other and no one knows where it goes.
Which makes them so very different from Tories.

Where all the good men gone? I want King Arthur.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Where all the good men gone? I want King Arthur.


If he looks like the one in Merlin join the queue  mind you Merlin was rather cute as well.


----------



## Elles

So they want vote to be on a deal that no-one is in favour of, or staying in the Eu? :Hilarious

No wonder the Eu want to keep Mrs May. 

How long did it take them to think that one up. How can we have another referendum, but make sure they vote remain this time. I know, give them the choice between a really bad deal that no-one will be pushing for, or staying in, but don’t make it so bad it’s really obvious. Good job. :Mooning

As we’ve voted to leave already, shouldn’t the choice be deal, or no deal?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> If he looks like the one in Merlin join the queue  mind you Merlin was rather cute as well.


Round the table we will go...

But honestly why Labour let themselves be whipped and voted for Article 50 and now they do not really want soft Brexit??? So what they voted for pushing for Brexit???

Forget wind turbines, we can use Labour MPs.

Tories are consistent : get rich quick scheme( old Etonians only),damn the stupid rest of UK who fell for it.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Round the table we will go...
> 
> But honestly why Labour let themselves be whipped and voted for Article 50 and now they do not really want soft Brexit??? So what they voted for pushing for Brexit???
> 
> Forget wind turbines, we can use Labour MPs.
> 
> Tories are consistent : get rich quick scheme, damn the stupid who fell for it.


Have you just called the leave voters stupid?


----------



## Elles

No, the Tories, including the current and previous PM wanted to stay in. I think Cheeky is calling Conservative voters stupid.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> No, the Tories, including the current and previous PM wanted to stay in. I think Cheeky is calling Conservative voters stupid.


Oh, lovely.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Have you just called the leave voters stupid?


I never! I just think some Tories might ... when no voters are around... 

So NO!!! I didn't. :Smug


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Have you just called the leave voters stupid?


I didn't, I am not NOT A TORY! Or old Etonian. Even less.
I never, cross me heart and hope to die.

I don't support Etonian mess.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I didn't, *I am not NOT A TORY!* Or old Etonian. Even less.
> I never, cross me heart and hope to die.


Double negative makes that a positive I'm afraid :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Double negative makes that a positive I'm afraid :Hilarious


Nope, it makes it very, very negative indeed. Like double chocolate.
Not negative but very chocolatey, not to mention double whiskey.
Or triple.

Even that may not be enough to stomach that Etonian mess.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I remember when most of Labour before referendum were anti Brexit, many of the Tories and all Lib Dem SNP.
> Look now - who expected Labour whipped to pass Article 50? Hoping what for ? No Brexit and freaking mess - their target was to win GE, if Brexit was helping so be it!!!
> Who cares about NHS , people and other tonterías.
> Their leader says one thing, does the other and no one knows where it goes.
> Which makes them so very different from Tories.
> 
> Where all the good men gone? I want King Arthur.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So they want vote to be on a deal that no-one is in favour of, or staying in the Eu? :Hilarious
> 
> No wonder the Eu want to keep Mrs May.
> 
> How long did it take them to think that one up. How can we have another referendum, but make sure they vote remain this time. I know, give them the choice between a really bad deal that no-one will be pushing for, or staying in, but don't make it so bad it's really obvious. Good job. :Mooning
> 
> As we've voted to leave already, shouldn't the choice be deal, or no deal?


In view of the lies from the leave campaign, Turkey about to join and £350m a week for the NHS, not to mention cheating should, by rights, render the result null and void in much the same way athletes who cheat by taking performance enhancing drugs should be stripped of their medals etc.

Yes, people deserve a say whether they still want Brexit now this has been revealed, so yes a people's vote must allow for that question in addition to May's deal or no deal.

I know many will disagree but I've had my say on that...

Two comments on the matter as seen on the Guardian's comments section.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Have you just called the leave voters stupid?


I don't see that. It's more of an attack on the Labour party seeing they are comparatively a pro EU party compared to the Tories.

They were whipped into voting with the government to back activating Article 50.

So, basically it's the pro EU supporters from all parties who refused to defy the whip being called stupid rather than those who voted for Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> As we've voted to leave already, shouldn't the choice be deal, or no deal?


If nothing had changed I might agree, except that the electorate is very different now, and it should be heard. But that is not the case.

Before the vote 30 months ago there was no information regarding the deal that would be reached between the UK and the EU. There is a lot of information now, and there would be more if the new referendum was held. Asking people, in the light of that information, if they would prefer to stay in the EU is not a betrayal of democracy, it _is_ democracy. Democracy demands that people can change their minds if they want, and that the Will of the People is not a cast-in-stone historic snapshot.

Those who argue that asking them to give their opinion in the light of the new situation are bullying them into voting Remain intimate a very low opinion of an electorate who they lauded for their bravery in 2016. For the most part, though, we all surely know that denying the People the chance to change their minds has nothing to do with democracy, and everything to do with the fear that they actually might.

(There is actually a good argument for not putting No Deal on the ballot, since no government with the interests of the country's people at heart would risk leaving the EU with No Deal. But I suppose democracy requires that it should be there, so long as the likes of Rees Mogg and IDS are prevented from lying about its consequences, as they are now.)


----------



## Elles

The newspaper article posted said that we should have a second referendum, but it would need an extension which the Eu would probably agree with if the choice was the chequers deal or remain. The article writer could see no reason why leavers would complain about it. I'm posting in response to that article, not a general second referendum discussion. This article. A vote on a deal that no one supports, or remain, sounds like an attempt to get a remain vote to me.



noushka05 said:


>


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The newspaper article posted said that we should have a second referendum, but it would need an extension which the Eu would probably agree with if the choice was the chequers deal or remain. The article writer could see no reason why leavers would complain about it. I'm posting in response to that article, not a general second referendum discussion. This article. A vote on a deal that no one supports, or remain, sounds like an attempt to get a remain vote to me.


Ah, right. It's sometimes difficult to tell with your posts exactly what you're replying to. If only we had a reply button!


----------



## Elles

Well I did say what ‘they’ say and that I was talking about the suggested referendum with the only choices of take the deal, or remain, being a clever ploy to get a remain vote. That didn’t include other options. It wasn’t really a reply to a specific post, but rather a cynical observation on what Remainers appear to be now asking for. That’s the trouble with links and copy pastes. I appear to be the only one reading them, including sometimes the posters, who don’t seem to have always read them either.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Well I did say what 'they' say and that I was talking about the suggested referendum with the only choices of take the deal, or remain, being a clever ploy to get a remain vote. That didn't include other options. It wasn't really a reply to a specific post, but rather a cynical observation on what Remainers appear to be now asking for. That's the trouble with links and copy pastes. I appear to be the only one reading them, including sometimes the posters, who don't seem to have always read them either.


Fair enough. The whole thing appears to be a bit of a mess at the moment!

It may all be clearer after the party conferences. I wouldn't bet on it though!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> A vote on a deal that no one supports, or remain, sounds like an attempt to get a remain vote to me.


Actually, knowing what the people as a whole are like, voting Tory in spite of cruel policies because The Sun says I actually believe Leave would win a second vote in much the same way the Tories are virtually guaranteed to win the next General Election.

Just because that's likely to happen, especially if Corbyn holds out that long, it doesn't mean the next general election to be held no later than 2022 should be cancelled!

As much as I might not like that I would feel more comfortable now we're actually hearing what Brexit actually means and a majority of around 60-40% for leave succeed.

I've never been comfortable about a narrow victory anyway, even if remain had won 52-48%.

Image if that resulted in closer Europe integration with the adoption of the Euro? I would understand objections even if I personally supported that.

I know not everyone who voted remain support that, but again there was no clear instruction in such a flawed referendum as to what a remain vote would have actually meant let alone leave!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It's all guessing Noush. Until it happens nobody knows.


No it isn't just guessing. There will be severe consequences to our NHS on leaving euratom, the EMA, single market & customs union. You dont even have to be an expert to figure that out.


stockwellcat. said:


> It's their job to be gloomy and try and scare the nation. When they are proven wrong they don't appologise.


Yet we trust doctors with our lives. You have put your trust in people who's arguments have easily been debunked. Your faith lies with Minford, that Wetherspoon eejit and the most corrupt politicians who lie as easily as they breathe over our most trusted professionals. Remember this post when we leave and reality bites you on the bottom, because if we leave without a deal you will be the one with egg on your face:Eggonfaceoctor



stockwellcat. said:


> Great. I can vote leave again like millions of others will like last time. Bring it on
> 
> Obviously the answer given last time was not heard properly by some remainers.


As leave cheated and 'project fear' is looking more & more real everyday, it would certainly be the only democratic thing to do. I'm sure most leave voters thought leave politicians actually had a plan to take us out of of the EU not recklessly drag us over a cliff.



Elles said:


> So they want vote to be on a deal that no-one is in favour of, or staying in the Eu? :Hilarious
> 
> No wonder the Eu want to keep Mrs May.
> 
> How long did it take them to think that one up. How can we have another referendum, but make sure they vote remain this time. I know, give them the choice between a really bad deal that no-one will be pushing for, or staying in, but don't make it so bad it's really obvious. Good job. :Mooning
> 
> As we've voted to leave already, shouldn't the choice be deal, or no deal?


They want people to be fully informed this time. No cheating, no interference from hostile outside forces. A fair vote.



Elles said:


> The newspaper article posted said that we should have a second referendum, but it would need an extension which the Eu would probably agree with if the choice was the chequers deal or remain. The article writer could see no reason why leavers would complain about it. I'm posting in response to that article, not a general second referendum discussion. This article. A vote on a deal that no one supports, or remain, sounds like an attempt to get a remain vote to me.


You'd think after 40years moaning about the EU leave politicians would have come up with a decent plan to get us out without destroying millions of jobs, our NHS etc And one which respects the Good Friday Agreement. They haven't got one.

I'm sure most leave voters thought they were voting for something better not much much worse.











Elles said:


> Well I did say what 'they' say and that I was talking about the suggested referendum with the only choices of take the deal, or remain, being a clever ploy to get a remain vote. That didn't include other options. It wasn't really a reply to a specific post, but rather a cynical observation on what Remainers appear to be now asking for. That's the trouble with links and copy pastes. *I appear to be the only one reading them, including sometimes the posters, who don't seem to have always read them either. *



How did you come to this conclusion?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I don't see that. It's more of an attack on the Labour party seeing they are comparatively a pro EU party compared to the Tories.
> 
> They were whipped into voting with the government to back activating Article 50.
> 
> So, basically it's the pro EU supporters from all parties who refused to defy the whip being called stupid rather than those who voted for Brexit.


Thank you for translating. This what I was trying to say....

If those who were convinced that Brexit is a wrong decision for the country voted for Article 50 just to preserve their seat then they betrayed people whom they should serve.
They put their career or even party interest before the country and the people.
People I don't blame as they were lied to and they are no experts.

On the surface not paying to EU anyomore and no more EU work immigration looks good, right?

Then and nostalgia for the Heartbeat England...

I do expect MPs having better judgment and more knowledge than a Joe Blogg.

More responsibility too.
Corbyn's cabinet resigned but he found enough Yes Men.
Cannot forgive him neither for lack of support for Remain or for whipping MPs.

Anything to grab the power. We have Tories for that.

I am afraid Labour has to unite and come up with a clear message.

I took Corbyn's forcing his MPs against their or their voters wishes as tyrannical, undemocratic , in longer run destroying Labour in next GE.

This is why Tories got the freedom they wanted: soon no EU rules and no opposition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No it isn't just guessing. There will be severe consequences to our NHS on leaving euratom, the EMA, single market & customs union. You dont even have to be an expert to figure that out.
> 
> Yet we trust doctors with our lives. You have put your trust in people who's arguments have easily been debunked. Your faith lies with Minford, that Wetherspoon eejit and the most corrupt politicians who lie as easily as they breathe over our most trusted professionals. Remember this post when we leave and reality bites you on the bottom, because if we leave without a deal you will be the one with egg on your face:Eggonfaceoctor
> 
> As leave cheated and 'project fear' is looking more & more real everyday, it would certainly be the only democratic thing to do. I'm sure most leave voters thought leave politicians actually had a plan to take us out of of the EU not recklessly drag us over a cliff.


:Yawn

:Nailbiting



I see the fear mongering has gone into over drive (some remainers making a good job of stoking up fear, doom and gloom saying he said this, she said that).

So Christmas? New Year? or 29th March 2019? I have placed a bet on all 3 :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> :Yawn
> 
> :Nailbiting
> 
> 
> 
> I see the fear mongering has gone into over drive (some remainers making a good job of stoking up fear, doom and gloom saying he said this, she said that).
> 
> So Christmas? New Year? or 29th March 2019? I have placed a bet on all 3 :Hilarious


I
All see you just trying to dismiss all arguments - with nothing that could disperse those fears.

This is not uncommon in UK history, happened before.
Along with " they need us more than we need them". I am talking about 1776 American War of Independence.
If country does not learn form former mistakes then is bound to repeat it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> All see you just trying to dismiss all arguments


Not trying, I have dismissed.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Not trying, I have dismissed.


I think this is part of the reason why these threads can sometimes become adversarial, because the realities of some consequences - the magnitude of many are of course speculative - are dismissed with no counter evidence. It would be informative and thought-provoking to see a logical rebuttal of the warnings, but all we get from ERG and IDS etc is "Nonsense" and "Project Fear!" but with no alternative sensibly argued. It is the same, sometimes, on here.

E.g.

On Brexit, as with the referendum vote, the pound will fall significantly. The costs of everything we import, including 40% of our food from around the world, will increase. The vote saw a 15% fall in the pound, and a No Deal Brexit will certainly be at least that much again. So prices will rise. *Can you give a logical rebuttal of that?*

Since the vote, says the Health Foundation
The latest figures from the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) have shown that the number of new nurses coming from the EU to work in the UK has dropped by 87% from 6,382 in 2016/17 to 805 in 2017/18.​And from the BBC 5 days ago:
The shortage of NHS staff in England has started worsening again, official figures show.
One in 11 posts is vacant with the situation particularly bad among the nursing workforce.
Experts described the situation as at risk of becoming a "national emergency" given the rising demands on the NHS.​*What is the post-Brexit plan to fully staff our NHS?*

A trade deal with the USA requires convergence of standards and practices in order _significantly_ to increase the trade we currently have with that country. The USA, vastly bigger and more economically powerful than the UK, is not going to change the rules for its farmers and manufacturers in order to fall into line with the UK, so we will have to change ours.
*How can we maintain our own standards, and significantly increase trade with the USA? What percentage increase in trade with the USA do Brexit supporters envisage?*

Without meaning to come across as bullying, what we need are answers to these and lots of other questions, rather than just "Project Fear!" dismissals.

When we leave the EU, we have to find those answers, because shouting "Nonsense" at the departing backs of NHS workers won't do the trick.


----------



## Arnie83

Re the People's Vote on the proposed deal, I look at it this way ...

My computer knows that I'm pretty much clueless when I press buttons more or less at random.

While it doesn't actually say "Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?"* it does sometimes say "Deleting [whatever] will cause [something quite serious]. Continue?"

More often than not, I decide not to continue. I don't stare at the screen in high dudgeon, thinking that asking me "Continue?" is a betrayal of democracy.

* Kudos if you recognise the quote!


----------



## Elles

The answer is to stop with all the meat and dairy (alcohol and tobacco too) and eat healthier plant based produce. People would generally become healthier and reduce the stress on the nhs, we won’t need to waste so much land growing food for animals and we won’t need so much money. People won’t take responsibility for themselves though, until we do, we’ll get what we deserve. That’s an nhs pushed to breaking point, particularly at the weekends, dealing with the fallout of drugs and alcohol and over indulgence. If we want it to have more money and continue as we do now, we’ll have to pay more into it. If the money isn’t there, we’ll have to pay more through tax or insurance. Or we could stop abusing it. 

None of the above has anything to do with Brexit.

You ask what is the post brexit plan to fully staff our nhs. There is no plan to fully staff the nhs, whether we stay or leave the Eu. As I’ve already mentioned, even in Germany health workers are feeling the strain. Should the U.K. really bribe skilled health workers from abroad with higher pay than they can get in their home country whose people paid for their training?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Should the U.K. really bribe skilled health workers from abroad with higher pay than they can get in their home country whose people paid for their training?


Not meaning to ignore the rest of a very reasonable post, but on this very valid question, let me put one back to you, without implying an answer to a difficult topic.

Should we deny foreign nurses the chance to significantly improve their personal and family living standards simply because they were born in a poorer country than the UK?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Not meaning to ignore the rest of a very reasonable post, but on this very valid question, let me put one back to you, without implying an answer to a difficult topic.
> 
> *Should we deny foreign nurses the chance to significantly improve their personal and family living standards simply because they were born in a poorer country than the UK?*



From the above statement I take it that you feel its perfectly OK for people in poorer countries to be deprived of the right to adequate nursing care just so long as you in the UK don't have to go without?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The answer is to stop with all the meat and dairy (alcohol and tobacco too) and eat healthier plant based produce. People would generally become healthier and reduce the stress on the nhs, we won't need to waste so much land growing food for animals and we won't need so much money. People won't take responsibility for themselves though, until we do, we'll get what we deserve. That's an nhs pushed to breaking point, particularly at the weekends, dealing with the fallout of drugs and alcohol and over indulgence. If we want it to have more money and continue as we do now, we'll have to pay more into it. If the money isn't there, we'll have to pay more through tax or insurance. Or we could stop abusing it.
> 
> None of the above has anything to do with Brexit.
> 
> You ask what is the post brexit plan to fully staff our nhs. There is no plan to fully staff the nhs, whether we stay or leave the Eu. As I've already mentioned, even in Germany health workers are feeling the strain. Should the U.K. really bribe skilled health workers from abroad with higher pay than they can get in their home country whose people paid for their training?


The UK has neglected to train adequate numbers of health care staff for decades and is now beginning to reap the consequences.

You might like to read this, published before the Referendum.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...ction-questions-nhs-international-comparisons


----------



## Happy Paws2

Governments have been lets NHS down for years, all they need to do is put a couple of pence on income tax and ring fence it to the NHS but no one is brave enough to raise tax. I'm sure if people knew that's where the money was going they wouldn't mind paying a bit more.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Not meaning to ignore the rest of a very reasonable post, but on this very valid question, let me put one back to you, without implying an answer to a difficult topic.
> 
> Should we deny foreign nurses the chance to significantly improve their personal and family living standards simply because they were born in a poorer country than the UK?


Yes. If I'm trained by a company or agency, I have to sign a contract to stay with them for x number of years, or pay them back for the training, either myself, or my new employer. As agency staff, anyone who wanted to take me on full time had to pay the agency a fee relating to my salary. If we want to poach staff, we need to pay the country that's losing them, at least what it would cost us to train the equivalent in this country. The nurses are not nurses until they're trained.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The answer is to stop with all the meat and dairy (alcohol and tobacco too) and eat healthier plant based produce. People would generally become healthier and reduce the stress on the nhs, we won't need to waste so much land growing food for animals and we won't need so much money. People won't take responsibility for themselves though, until we do, we'll get what we deserve. That's an nhs pushed to breaking point, particularly at the weekends, dealing with the fallout of drugs and alcohol and over indulgence. If we want it to have more money and continue as we do now, we'll have to pay more into it. If the money isn't there, we'll have to pay more through tax or insurance. Or we could stop abusing it.
> 
> None of the above has anything to do with Brexit.
> 
> You ask what is the post brexit plan to fully staff our nhs. There is no plan to fully staff the nhs, whether we stay or leave the Eu. As I've already mentioned, even in Germany health workers are feeling the strain. Should the U.K. really bribe skilled health workers from abroad with higher pay than they can get in their home country whose people paid for their training?


It might not have anything to do with Brexit but this would most certainly cause much anger and resentment amongst many people!

After all, many have actually blamed the EU for PC, Health and Safety and the likes and expect we'd return to the care free days before the sugar tax and the likes.

As this has been discussed before elsewhere I won't comment further.

As for your last paragraph it's the fault of this and past governments in the UK rather than the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Not meaning to ignore the rest of a very reasonable post, but on this very valid question, let me put one back to you, without implying an answer to a difficult topic.
> 
> Should we deny foreign nurses the chance to significantly improve their personal and family living standards simply because they were born in a poorer country than the UK?


In the same sense, should UK born healthcare professionals be stopped from leaving the UK in other countries like Australia or NZ for example?


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> In the same sense, should UK born healthcare professionals be stopped from leaving the UK in other countries like Australia or NZ for example?


Yes, if the U.K. government paid for their training, they should have to practice here for x number of years, or pay back the training fees.

Oh wait..


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> It might not have anything to do with Brexit but this would most certainly cause much anger and resentment amongst many people!
> 
> After all, many have actually blamed the EU for PC, Health and Safety and the likes and expect we'd return to the care free days before the sugar tax and the likes.
> 
> As this has been discussed before elsewhere I won't comment further.
> 
> As for your last paragraph it's the fault of this and past governments in the UK rather than the EU.


Exactly. All this is being cited as a reason for staying in the Eu, when the state of the nhs is down to us and our governments, nothing to do with the Eu, who can neither be held responsible for its destruction, or be held up as its saviour. The only reason the NHS is even in the discussion is that darned bus. Stay or leave, the effect on the nhs is a drop in the ocean imho.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> From the above statement I take it that you feel its perfectly OK for people in poorer countries to be deprived of the right to adequate nursing care just so long as you in the UK don't have to go without?


Well leaving aside your implied assessment of my selfishness, I asked the question based on how I would feel as a foreign nurse being denied the chance to earn a great deal more money by using my expertise in a different location.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yes. If I'm trained by a company or agency, I have to sign a contract to stay with them for x number of years, or pay them back for the training, either myself, or my new employer. As agency staff, anyone who wanted to take me on full time had to pay the agency a fee relating to my salary. If we want to poach staff, we need to pay the country that's losing them, at least what it would cost us to train the equivalent in this country. The nurses are not nurses until they're trained.


Now that is a very good idea, and one that I would support. It takes into account the needs of the country of origin as well as the right of the individual to do the best for her/himself and his/her family.

_This_ suggestion, @Magyarmum , is what I think is 'perfectly okay', not that we should strip other countries of their nurses to best safeguard my own wellbeing.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> In the same sense, should UK born healthcare professionals be stopped from leaving the UK in other countries like Australia or NZ for example?


I agree with @Elles 's answer. (Except UK trained rather than UK born, but I know what you meant.)


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Now that is a very good idea, and one that I would support. It takes into account the needs of the country of origin as well as the right of the individual to do the best for her/himself and his/her family.
> 
> _This_ suggestion, @Magyarmum , is what I think is 'perfectly okay', not that we should strip other countries of their nurses to best safeguard my own wellbeing.


I find nothing wrong with that.

My family business was Dental Supplies and I remember in the late 50's early 60's because of an acute shortage of dental surgeons, the UK government had a scheme whereby dentists from Australia could work in the UK for 3 years without having to pay tax. What happened was that Aussie dentists arrived in great numbers and many set up what can only be described a "sweat shops". Few practiced conservative or preventative dentistry because the NHS didn't pay as much for a filling as they did for an extraction which if my memory serves me right was £10 per tooth - and something that could be done in around 10 minutes!

At the end of the 3 years most b*****d back to Oz considerably richer!

Two interesting articles which gives some insight as to how the NHS became what it is now .....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613146/

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/pol...ealth-service-putting-history-to-the-forefron


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yes, if the U.K. government paid for their training, they should have to practice here for x number of years, or pay back the training fees.
> 
> Oh wait..


I meant should HC professionals be permanently barred from leaving the country to work abroad, ensuring British run healthcare for the British.

I should have been clearer.

Actually, does the government pay for their training? That's news to me. What about tuition fees?


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I meant should HC professionals be permanently barred from leaving the country to work abroad, ensuring British run healthcare for the British.
> 
> I should have been clearer.
> 
> Actually, does the government pay for their training? That's news to me. What about tuition fees?


That's why I said 'Oh wait..'. I think now U.K. trained nurses have to pay for their education don't they? No, they shouldn't be barred, people should be permitted to work anywhere they like.


----------



## Arnie83

Leaving aside the morality of it all, (purely for purposes of the Brexit thread), we still have the question of how to keep the NHS operating adequately when the EU nurse applications have plummeted by 96%.


----------



## Elles

Hasn’t that horse already bolted? 

Depending on what’s wrong with you and where you live, the nhs isn’t adequate.

I know what you’re asking though. I personally think its impossible to keep going as it is. It probably needs a number of different solutions. As regards health workers leaving, that I believe would have happened regardless of Brexit. As other European countries improve, they become more attractive than the U.K. The Internet is changing economics quite a lot. We might be brexiting, but we’re still connected.

ETA I just read what I posted and thought ‘what?’ I know what I’m trying to say. I think we are all more connected via the Internet today, than we ever will be through political bodies. individuals are able more and more to take their lifestyle and improve it wherever they live. If you live in a beautiful country, with family and friends, you might want to broaden your horizons temporarily, but wouldn’t most want to go home if they could and the environment is better there?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Leaving aside the morality of it all, (purely for purposes of the Brexit thread), we still have the question of how to keep the NHS operating adequately when the EU nurse applications have plummeted by 96%.


From personal experiences I have never met a nurse from an EU country when attending hospital or at my GP surgery. There are plenty of African Nurses and Jamacan Nurses. As I said though this is just my experience.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> From personal experiences I have never met a nurse from an EU country when attending hospital or at my GP surgery. There are plenty of African Nurses and Jamacan Nurses. As I said though this is just my experience.


According to the House of Commons Library 7% of nurses in England are (non-UK) EU nationals, and in London specifically it's up to 12%

For nurses the percentage of EU joiners fell from 19% in 2015/16 to 12.4% in 2016/17, then further to 9.6% in the year ending September 2017.
In the year ending Sep 2017, 13% of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals, up from 9% in 2015/16.​
The numbers applying are much lower than they used to be, as per my earlier post.

It is and will be a problem, and there has to be a post-Brexit plan. As with the other issues I mentioned, and many others. We can't just ignore them or dismiss them.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> That's why I said 'Oh wait..'. I think now U.K. trained nurses have to pay for their education don't they? No, they shouldn't be barred, people should be permitted to work anywhere they like.


Bursaries for nursing students were stopped in 2017 which if I'm correct led to a 33% drop in the number of applications. And of course free university education for all was dropped by the Labour Government in 1998.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...funding-debt-tuition-fees-costs-a8191546.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom

I seem to remember that at one time newly qualified UK doctors had to do a year as a registrar before they were permitted to take a job abroad. I'm not sure whether it's the same these days but certainly when the 3 members of my family qualified as doctors they also took the equivalent US degree which they had to had if they wanted to work in the States


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> According to the House of Commons Library 7% of nurses in England are (non-UK) EU nationals, and in London specifically it's up to 12%
> 
> For nurses the percentage of EU joiners fell from 19% in 2015/16 to 12.4% in 2016/17, then further to 9.6% in the year ending September 2017.
> In the year ending Sep 2017, 13% of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals, up from 9% in 2015/16.​
> The numbers applying are much lower than they used to be, as per my earlier post.
> 
> It is and will be a problem, and there has to be a post-Brexit plan. As with the other issues I mentioned, and many others. We can't just ignore them or dismiss them.


Plan is simple - EU work immigration replaced by non-EU. We could restrict it to Common Wealth even. 
Maybe it was easier to confirm qualifications of EU workers -meeting EU standards and so on... but I am sure the government has it covered. BUPA covered.


----------



## KittenKong

Here's the latest: Theresa May says it's her deal or no deal.

Think I'd rather have no deal if forced to choose thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> According to the House of Commons Library 7% of nurses in England are (non-UK) EU nationals, and in London specifically it's up to 12%
> 
> For nurses the percentage of EU joiners fell from 19% in 2015/16 to 12.4% in 2016/17, then further to 9.6% in the year ending September 2017.
> In the year ending Sep 2017, 13% of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals, up from 9% in 2015/16.​
> The numbers applying are much lower than they used to be, as per my earlier post.
> 
> It is and will be a problem, and there has to be a post-Brexit plan. As with the other issues I mentioned, and many others. We can't just ignore them or dismiss them.


Have you thought though that there has been less nurses applying to work in the UK because there own country has got a nursing shortage?

Plus Bursaries for nursing students were stopped in 2017 which would have impacted on the amount of people applying to become a nurse in the UK.

Let's also add this into the equation Nurses are victims of assault by patients being violent to them and this is on the increase in the UK which would put anyone off applying to work as a nurse in the UK.

I feel vote remain are using the statistics which do include the 3 above points to make it look like Brexit is solely to blame for the decrease in nurses applying to work in the UK or leaving the UK. Brexit is not solely to blame at all.

Shall we do the maths.
Statistics suggests there are *692,556* nurses in the UK in 2017. 7% according to what you said above are EU nationals which equates to 44,730.28. According to the statistics you published 13% left (no reasons given according to the stats you published above) eqautes to
6,302.2596 (I wonder if the stats are correct as how can you get 0.2596 of a nurse?) of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals (remember your states do not take into account any of the points I raised above) there is then 38,428.0204 EU national nurses left. Leaving 686,253.7404 nurses from all nationalities in 2017.

In 2018 statistics suggests there is over 639,000 nurses in the NHS. This would mean around 63,556 left the nhs last year.

Lets take rounded up figures.
53556 - 38428 = 15,128 nurses of none EU nationalities left as well.

Nursing isn't a glamerous job or career.
Again according to your stats above no reasons where given as to why so many NHS EU National Nurses left. It could be for any reason.

In 2010 there was 501,000 nurses in the NHS by the way.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Have you thought though that there has been less nurses applying to work in the UK because there own country has got a nursing shortage?
> 
> Plus Bursaries for nursing students were stopped in 2017 which would have impacted on the amount of people applying to become a nurse in the UK.
> 
> Let's also add this into the equation Nurses are victims of assault by patients being violent to them and this is on the increase in the UK which would put anyone off applying to work as a nurse in the UK.
> 
> I feel vote remain are using the statistics which do include the 3 above points to make it look like Brexit is solely to blame for the decrease in nurses applying to work in the UK or leaving the UK. Brexit is not solely to blame at all.
> 
> Shall we do the maths.
> Statistics suggests there are *692,556* nurses in the UK in 2017. 7% according to what you said above are EU nationals which equates to 44,730.28. According to the statistics you published 13% left (no reasons given according to the stats you published above) eqautes to
> 6,302.2596 (I wonder if the stats are correct as how can you get 0.2596 of a nurse?) of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals (remember your states do not take into account any of the points I raised above) there is then 38,428.0204 EU national nurses left. Leaving 686,253.7404 nurses from all nationalities in 2017.
> 
> In 2018 statistics suggests there is over 639,000 nurses in the NHS. This would mean around 63,556 left the nhs last year.
> 
> Lets take rounded up figures.
> 63556 - 38428 = 25,128 nurses of none EU nationalities left as well.
> 
> Nursing isn't a glamerous job or career.
> Again according to your stats above no reasons where given as to why so many NHS EU National Nurses left. It could be for any reason.
> 
> In 2010 there was 501,000 nurses in the NHS by the way.


Here is the breakdown of NHS staff.from overseas.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Here's the latest: Theresa May says it's her deal or no deal.
> 
> Think I'd rather have no deal if forced to choose thank you.


Me too. I doubt the question will be put like that though. Somehow the choice made by parliament (or the second referendum) will be engineered as 'her deal' or remain as-is. Either way, we are not leaving.


----------



## Magyarmum

Latest news from Politico

https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-a175496b8d-190252485


----------



## stockwellcat.

A few of my favourite cartoons about Brexit as Theresa May says today that basically it's her deal or no deal. So if Parliament vote against her deal it is no deal.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45543609

Lets see what's on offer.
The EU are offering plenty of fudge









Whilst Trump spurs May on..







Meanwhile the hills are alive with the sound of Brexit in Salzburg.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Here's the latest: Theresa May says it's her deal or no deal.
> 
> Think I'd rather have no deal if forced to choose thank you.


I wonder if she means it. I really don't know any more. Surely she can't wantonly cause significant economic damage to the country she is supposed to be leading, can she?

She know full well that the ERG are lying with their assessments of the effects, and even Rees-Mogg said the benefits might not be seen for 50 years.

Is it brinkmanship? Or is she really prepared to take the country down with her?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> From personal experiences I have never met a nurse from an EU country when attending hospital or at my GP surgery. There are plenty of African Nurses and Jamacan Nurses.


I'd tend to agree with that. Only came across a couple when my dad was in hospital. Doctors and (especially) skilled technicians were a different story altogether though.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Have you thought though that there has been less nurses applying to work in the UK because there own country has got a nursing shortage?
> 
> Plus Bursaries for nursing students were stopped in 2017 which would have impacted on the amount of people applying to become a nurse in the UK.
> 
> Let's also add this into the equation Nurses are victims of assault by patients being violent to them and this is on the increase in the UK which would put anyone off applying to work as a nurse in the UK.
> 
> I feel vote remain are using the statistics which do include the 3 above points to make it look like Brexit is solely to blame for the decrease in nurses applying to work in the UK or leaving the UK. Brexit is not solely to blame at all.
> 
> Shall we do the maths.
> Statistics suggests there are *692,556* nurses in the UK in 2017. 7% according to what you said above are EU nationals which equates to 44,730.28. According to the statistics you published 13% left (no reasons given according to the stats you published above) eqautes to
> 6,302.2596 (I wonder if the stats are correct as how can you get 0.2596 of a nurse?) of nurses leaving the NHS were EU nationals (remember your states do not take into account any of the points I raised above) there is then 38,428.0204 EU national nurses left. Leaving 686,253.7404 nurses from all nationalities in 2017.
> 
> In 2018 statistics suggests there is over 639,000 nurses in the NHS. This would mean around 63,556 left the nhs last year.
> 
> Lets take rounded up figures.
> 53556 - 38428 = 15,128 nurses of none EU nationalities left as well.
> 
> Nursing isn't a glamerous job or career.
> Again according to your stats above no reasons where given as to why so many NHS EU National Nurses left. It could be for any reason.
> 
> In 2010 there was 501,000 nurses in the NHS by the way.


I quite agree that there will be more than one reason for the decline, though I think the bursaries might not be significant since the job applicants are already trained, and I think salaries are still higher in the UK, which mitigates against shortages elsewhere.

But given that, since the vote, there has been a 96% drop in EU applicants, I think the attribution to Brexit is not insignificant.

The question remains, though: after Brexit, what do we do? What is the plan? Tory party policy is still to reduce immigration to <100k, and 'control of our borders' was top of the reported Leaver requirements. So, what's the plan?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Is it brinkmanship? Or is she really prepared to take the country down with her?


Could be there's nothing else. It's as close to an admission of an irrecoverable situation as I could imagine. She was never going to be successful with her initial bombastic attitude so now there's only face saving.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder if she means it. I really don't know any more. Surely she can't wantonly cause significant economic damage to the country she is supposed to be leading, can she?
> 
> She know full well that the ERG are lying with their assessments of the effects, and even Rees-Mogg said the benefits might not be seen for 50 years.
> 
> Is it brinkmanship? Or is she really prepared to take the country down with her?


I suppose the question is why would she feel she has to care at this point? She got landed with a job no-one wanted, knowing full well it would be impossible to please anyone no matter what and in all likelyhood it would be the end of her political career. She then proceeded to do that job really badly, exacerbated by undermining from within. It's now getting pretty obvious that at the moment ANY solution proposed formally proposed - including no deal - will fail to get the backing of parliament, particularly as her own party are fighting like rats in a sack. And she's rich enough (plus set up with a generous pension for life) for it not to really affect her.

One almost couldn't blame her for going 'stuff it, I'm too old for this rubbish, or for it really to affect me' and walking away


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Me too. I doubt the question will be put like that though. Somehow the choice made by parliament (or the second referendum) will be engineered as 'her deal' or remain as-is. Either way, we are not leaving.


Thinking about it, and seeing @stockwellcat. 's "Fudge" cartoon, I reckon May's Deal will, intentionally on both sides, be so woolly as to amount to nothing more than getting the Withdrawal Agreement over the line, and then kicking the can of the future relationship down the road.

The ERG-types will be happy because we've left, while the moderates will have nothing to pin a No vote on without looking obstructionist.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> Could be there's nothing else. It's as close to an admission of an irrecoverable situation as I could imagine. She was never going to be successful with her initial bombastic attitude so now there's only face saving.





Jesthar said:


> I suppose the question is why would she feel she has to care at this point? She got landed with a job no-one wanted, knowing full well it would be impossible to please anyone no matter what and in all likelyhood it would be the end of her political career. She then proceeded to do that job really badly, exacerbated by undermining from within. It's now getting pretty obvious that at the moment ANY solution proposed formally proposed - including no deal - will fail to get the backing of parliament, particularly as her own party are fighting like rats in a sack. And she's rich enough (plus set up with a generous pension for life) for it not to really affect her.
> 
> One almost couldn't blame her for going 'stuff it, I'm too old for this rubbish, or for it really to affect me' and walking away


A number of commentators are suggesting that this is what makes the People's Vote more likely. May can't carry Parliament with her, and - surely @Jesthar - doesn't want to go down in history as even worse than Cameron, so throw the decision back to the People and abdicate responsibility that way. If they vote for the cliff-edge despite the warnings, and knowing that putting your fingers in your ears is not a viable substitute for a parachute, then it's up to them.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Latest news from Politico
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-a175496b8d-190252485


Interesting. Thank you.

Fudge, anyone?

According to three leading EU27 officials and diplomats working on Brexit, the final compromise will reflect some aspects of May's Chequers plan while also *remaining sufficiently vague to keep all sides happy*. One EU diplomat said: "The more generic it will be, the easier it will be for May to keep together the different souls of the Tories."​
The cherry of Democracy on top of the Brexit cake!

Both sides hope it will be a "transformative" political moment for Theresa May, with the goal of a jolt of momentum that will help the U.K. prime minister *force a deal through parliament before her opponents can pick it apart*.​
But still this looks hopeful to avoid economic carnage:

If she fails, several officials in Brussels said they expect *complete political turmoil, potentially including a general election or even a new referendum on EU membership.*

*What no one in Europe believes though is that the U.K. is seriously contemplating leaving without a deal.* Out of 14 diplomats approached by POLITICO not one said they thought the U.K. is serious about going ahead with no deal. "[The Brits] will keep on publishing material on it, no doubt, but it's really difficult to believe in it," one said.​


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> A number of commentators are suggesting that this is what makes the People's Vote more likely. May can't carry Parliament with her, and - surely @Jesthar - doesn't want to go down in history as even worse than Cameron, so throw the decision back to the People and abdicate responsibility that way. If they vote for the cliff-edge despite the warnings, and knowing that putting your fingers in your ears is not a viable substitute for a parachute, then it's up to them.


One wonders what one would put on that vote given how many issues it needs to address... No deal, whatever deal May is backing at the time, Norway model, Remain etc.


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## Elles

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/21/health/europe-nursing-shortage/index.html

http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/Health-systems/health-workforce/data-and-statistics

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4860

There is a worldwide shortage of healthcare professionals, particularly GP and nursing staff. Shuffling what there is between wealthier countries doesn't help. I don't doubt that Brexit made the uk less attractive and workers left because of it. I believe that just having the referendum made the U.K. less attractive, but there is more to it.

The problem needs addressing from a number of different angles. I was googling to see how successful countries train and recruit their staff to see if there was a solution elsewhere. There isn't. The shortage is worldwide.


----------



## stockwellcat.

News is filtering through that a deal has been reached by the UK and EU and will be unveiled in the Salzburg meeting in November. The report is coming from The Express and no doubt be picked up by other newspapers shortly. Reading the artical Politico is the papar reporting this and is the original source.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1018586/brexit-latest-news-britain-european-union-withdrawal-agreement-irish-border/amp


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## stockwellcat.

It's being reported a major concession was made by the EU on the Irish border issue. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...p-irish-border-nothern-ireland-michel-barnier


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It's being reported a major concession was made by the EU on the Irish border issue. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...p-irish-border-nothern-ireland-michel-barnier


It certainly sounds positive.

I've read The Times report that the Express quotes and just a couple of things ringing slight bells for me. The number of mentions of 'most' border checks being done elsewhere, and 'minimising' the need for them at an actual border, as opposed to removing the need completely, is informative. In a past life, when I was an analyst, it was words like that where the devil of the detail lurked. The exceptions to the general solution have to be identified and resolved, because a border with just a few checks is still a border.

Plus the agreement of a 'backstop' if things don't work out needs to be agreed.

Sounds like they're not there yet, but it's definitely promising.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It's being reported a major concession was made by the EU on the Irish border issue. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...p-irish-border-nothern-ireland-michel-barnier


I take what the Express report with a pinch of salt quite frankly.

Even if this was true would the DUP agree to this?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I take what the Express report with a pinch of salt quite frankly.


Daily Mail actually made this news report and the Express picked it up and reported it as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Even if this was true would the DUP agree to this?


Well yes as they talk about using technology along the border. I think they would.

May said her deal or no deal they are the 2 options available and nothing else.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Daily Mail actually made this news report and the Express picked it up and reported it as well.


DM are about as plausible as the Flat Earth society, though  I'll wait for official announcements.



stockwellcat. said:


> Well yes as they talk about using technology along the border. I think they would.


Oh glory, not the 'using technology along the border' line _again_! Anyone spouting that line still clearly has no idea of the work involved in setting something up like that, even if the necessary technology actually existed and was ready to go, which as far as I am aware (as a tech industry insider) is not the case. And even if you do find some existing technology that would sort of do, that kind of gear is never off the shelf. Even assuming anyone can actually agree the project paramaters in the first place; just writing the spec is likely to take a couple of years. 

The may as well annouce that leprechauns will be staffing the border crossing points come March, there's about as much chance!


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## stockwellcat.

Watch Panorama tonight BBC1.

The majority of the public prefer no deal opposed to Theresa May's deal. Scary times for those still wanting a 2nd referendum and hoping the UK remains in the EU.

A premium article so you have to pay to read it.
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/17/voters-prefer-no-deal-theresa-mays-brexit-project-fear-wont/amp/


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Watch Panorama tonight BBC1.
> 
> The majority of the public prefer no deal opposed to Theresa May's deal. Scary times for those still wanting a 2nd referendum and hoping the UK remains in the EU.
> 
> A premium article so you have to pay to read it.
> www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/17/voters-prefer-no-deal-theresa-mays-brexit-project-fear-wont/amp/


Not good times for those supporting no deal either.

So TM isn't only ignoring calls for a people's vote, she's ignoring most brexiters too. All about what SHE wants and imposing HER will onto everyone else.

No, I'll not be watching Panorama. I'll working on this tele instead!

Ah, much better!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So TM isn't only ignoring calls for a people's vote


Pretty much yeah.


> All about what SHE wants and imposing HER will onto everyone else.


That's what leaders do don't they?



> I'll working on this tele instead!
> 
> Ah, much better!
> View attachment 368709


I remember Granada TV.
What you doing to the TV modernising it? :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> she's ignoring most brexiters too.


No she is giving Brexitiers what they want. No deal.

Please note I do not want her deal either. But if no deal is the only other option on the table that is the one we'll have to accept.


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## havoc

KittenKong said:


> Even if this was true would the DUP agree to this?


Does this matter any more? They're only critical if it's a straight numbers game in a government vs opposition situation. That hasn't been the case for ages.


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## Arnie83

Last week:

Jaguar boss Ralf Speth warned the government to get "the right Brexit" or risk big job cuts at the carmaker and wiping out its profits​
This morning, Bernard Jenkin MP accuses Jaguar boss of scaremongering:

"I'm afraid I think he's making it up. We've had figures made up all the time by the scaremongers in this debate and I'm afraid nobody believes them."​
Today, Jaguar puts workers on 3-day week. Hopefully, it's temporary ...

"In light of the continuing headwinds impacting the car industry, we are making some temporary adjustments to our production schedules at Castle Bromwich"​
... but it is a salutary warning to those who keep bleating Project Fear, like Jenkin.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> May said her deal or no deal they are the 2 options available and nothing else.


Well, she would, wouldn't she.


----------



## Elles

Over 90% of their sales last year were diesel...

Brexit? Really?


----------



## Elles

It’s funny really. Before the referendum the Eu were blamed for anything and everything, now it’s Brexit that’s the scapegoat. :Yawn

Ironically it’s the Eu who want an end to the emissions from diesel cars and have had an impact on luxury car makers whose main sales were diesel. :Hilarious


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> It's funny really. Before the referendum the Eu were blamed for anything and everything, now it's Brexit that's the scapegoat.


I know what you mean but Brexit is an extra complication in everything and it has taken over to the extent of keeping other things out of the news and out of minds. We're still part of a world economy, still affected by things outside our own borders and always will be. Take our eyes off those balls and in or out of Europe we will be vulnerable. I don't get the sense that anyone is running this country, has any vision beyond next April. That's pretty poor.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I know what you mean but Brexit is an extra complication in everything and it has taken over to the extent of keeping other things out of the news and out of minds. We're still part of a world economy, still affected by things outside our own borders and always will be. Take our eyes off those balls and in or out of Europe we will be vulnerable. I don't get the sense that anyone is running this country, has any vision beyond next April. That's pretty poor.


Those who are running this country are holding for dear life to their chairs at the moment. Others are just ready for power grab and care nothing but to land the PM etc...


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## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> Those who are running this country are holding for dear life to their chairs at the moment. Others are just ready for power grab and care nothing but to land the PM etc...


Yes - because of Brexit. Whatever side of that particular fence you sit on it isn't possible to ignore the mess we're in politically.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> Yes - because of Brexit. Whatever side of that particular fence you sit on it isn't possible to ignore the mess we're in politically.


Szelf inflicted mess.

For some EU appeared to be some sinister force trying to suck UK in, yet IMO this is Russia we should fear, they definitely stirred the couldron and they would reap the benefits of that unholy mess UK is tumbling into.
Russia, China will definitely be very happy to invest and to exploit.

The trade deals with them will be hallowed as great political successes... while really sinister and ruthless corporations will firmly put feet under the table... why do you think is behind some such as Bow group?
It will be impossible to root them out.
No strawberry pickers they are...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May has made what happens next loud and clear. It's her deal or no deal.

I wouldn't vote for her deal.

We have just over 6 months till 29th March 2019. Will we be out before then? Yes if Parliament vote down the Chequers deal. The Chequers deal was designed to deliver a no deal brexit. I mean who would vote in favour of the Chequers deal?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May has made what happens next loud and clear. It's her deal or no deal.
> 
> I wouldn't vote for her deal.
> 
> We have just over 6 months till 29th March 2019. Will we be out before then? Yes if Parliament vote down the Chequers deal. The Chequers deal was designed to deliver a no deal brexit. I mean who would vote in favour of the Chequers deal?


I think sometimes she might say things that aren't strictly cast in stone, but which she wants us to believe until such time as she is ready to say something different.

She used to say that we would have frictionless trade with the EU, until that became 'as frictionless as possible'

She used to say that she would not call a general election, until she did.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that we will (or even can) leave the EU until 29th March 2019.

As for who would vote for the (revised) Chequers deal; well I think if the options actually were that deal or no deal at all, with all it entails then quite a lot of MPs would vote for the deal. The ERG types would go for No Deal, but they aren't too bothered about the damage to the country's finances or the welfare of its people.

As a point of interest, what is it about the (current) Chequers deal that you don't like?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> As a point of interest, what is it about the (current) Chequers deal that you don't like?


Well ask that to remainers as well as remainers don't like it either.

My reason is it keeps the UK aligned to the EU. I voted to leave the EU not remain by the back door.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well ask that to remainers as well as remainers don't like it either.
> 
> My reason is it keeps the UK aligned to the EU. I voted to leave the EU not remain by the back door.


Fair enough.

Of course, if the UK wants to trade with anyone at all, and vice versa, then we have to have alignment of standards / rules regarding those goods that are traded. So any trade deal with the EU, or the US, or China, would require alignment.

In the real world, the larger market is the one that gets to define the majority of those standards. Economic "independence" is hard to come by in a globalised world.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well ask that to remainers as well as remainers don't like it either.


Indeed. From my point of view TM has spent the best part of two years working towards a deal that works with her hostile environment policy and immigration targets, even if that goes against EU policy.

To me personally it's the freedom to live, work and retire in another EU/EEA country that I would miss the most.

How dare this vile woman unilaterally decide to negotiate that away from me and have the audacity to suggest I, as a British person, voted for that yet otherwise keep the UK aligned with the EU in other forms. I can well understand Brexiters being angry with the latter.

My biggest fear is not Brexit deal or no deal funnily enough, it's the fear the EU will cave into her demands at the last minute thus putting their own future in jeopardy just to please a fascist who's leaving anyway.

I can just see the tabloid headlines, "Strong and stable Theresa May takes on 27 member states and the Brussles bullies single handedly".

This would guarantee another 10 years of premiership and having already proven she can unilaterally make decisions without consulting parliament can we expect no human rights, no freedom of speech and the return of fox hunting amongst other things?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Of course, if the UK wants to trade with anyone at all, and vice versa, then we have to have alignment of standards / rules regarding those goods that are traded. So any trade deal with the EU, or the US, or China, would require alignment.
> 
> In the real world, the larger market is the one that gets to define the majority of those standards. Economic "independence" is hard to come by in a globalised world.


An interesting article by Dan Hannan in the Washington Examiner which you might like to read

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dan-hannan-a-us-uk-deal-will-revolutionize-world-trade


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting article by Dan Hannan in the Washington Examiner which you might like to read
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dan-hannan-a-us-uk-deal-will-revolutionize-world-trade


It's interesting, because what Hannan is describing there is the EU single market. Mutual recognition of standards, drug approvals, no tariff or non-tariff barriers. The most successful 'free trade deal' in the world.

I wonder if the Brexit supporters would like it, though. E.g.

"What is legal in one country should automatically be legal in the other. Mutual recognition should cover goods, services and professional qualifications. If a drug is approved by the FDA, that should be good enough for the Brits."​
Is that 'Taking Back Control', or handing it instead to the USA? Who does Hannan think would hold the whip hand in deciding what was acceptable, with automatic acceptance in the other 'members' of this organisation?

Absolutely free trade is a very attractive idea, if, for example, you aren't a British farmer or manufacturer. It's what Minford proposes. And, like Hannan, he predicts falling prices without mentioning in public the need for people displaced from those industries where the UK isn't the world leader to find something else to do. 25 years olds might be able to re-train. For 50 year olds with 16 years until a pension kicks in, it's not so easy. It's why the EU has some built-in protections for its people.

And without going on for ever (too late?) the 'think tanks' behind this report are not best known for their welfare concerns, whether for people, animals or the environment.

Without wanting to start the NHS debate again, this is a quote from the IFT / Cato Institute, two of the "heroic" bodies lauded by Hannan.

"Health services would benefit from foreign competition, although we recognise any change to existing regulations would be extremely controversial."​
It recommends testing the waters with foreign competition in education and legal services first. Warning bells should be ringing, and quite loudly.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It's funny really. Before the referendum the Eu were blamed for anything and everything, now it's Brexit that's the scapegoat. :Yawn
> 
> Ironically it's the Eu who want an end to the emissions from diesel cars and have had an impact on luxury car makers whose main sales were diesel. :Hilarious


The tories have been using the EU as (one of) their scapegoat(s) for years. Many people voted for brexit because they believed the spin the EU was to blame for many of our countrys ills.

Brexit is already having a negative impact - this isnt scapegoating, this is fact. Out of the EU things will get much much worse. When it goes from bad to disastrous who or what will be the new scapegoat? Maybe people will finally wake up - although it will be a bit too late by then. - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

This epic thread is epic

*You know what our problem is, in Britain? It's this little lot.*

Thread

*1* The unelected House of Lords outnumbers the Commons for the first time in 550 years.

* 2* Worldwide, only Britain and Iran automatically grant religious leaders a place in parliament.

* 3* 90% of the judiciary come from the same 5% of schools

*4* London gets 24 times as much public infrastructure spending PER PERSON as the North.

*5* Five British individuals own as much as the poorest 12 million of us.

*6* At least £33 billion a year is lost to tax evasion.

* 7* 100% of our national newspapers are owned by Russian mafia, tax evaders or pornographers

*8* We're the only European nation that doesn't own any of it's railways, water or power companies.

9 Only 138 constituencies actually matter, because the other 500 are essentially rotten boroughs which never change hands no matter how you vote.

*10 *Our electoral system is designed to prevent new parties from entering it

*11* We have the greatest inequality in Europe, costing the economy an estimated £39bn per year, or £1400 per person

*12* *Since 2010* £225bn has been cut from public spending

*13* *Since 2010* the richest 1000 individuals have increased their wealth by £225bn

1*4* This is supposed to be a coincidence

*15* 90% of Northern Europe's poorest regions are in the UK

*16* More members of the cabinet attended the same private school than have used the NHS in the last decade

*17* 70% of new jobs *since 2010* have been casual or freelance, with average earnings £16,500 below the average full-time permanent job

*18* The "minimum wage" is less than the minimum required to survive

*19* Of our last 6 Prime Ministers, only 2 got the job by winning a majority at a general election

* 20* The last 4 governments won absolute power with the vote of less than 30% of voters, and less than 25% of the electorate

*21* We sell arms to Israel (44 years in breach of UN resolutions) and Saudi Arabia (still flog women for driving and hang homosexuals)

*22* UK tax code is 17,000 pages long, custom-made to hide every possible trick for the rich to evade and avoid tax

*2*3 Homes are taxed, but land isn't; so if you own a tiny flat you pay more tax than a man who owns 1 million acres and is just sitting on it, forcing your rent to rise

*24* Half of people under 30 will never be able to afford their own home

*
25 And finally - in case it's unclear - absolutely NONE of this was caused by immigrants, refugees, black, brown or yellow people, foreigners, or the EU. None of it. Absolutely none.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.......................................--------------------=====================================*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting article by Dan Hannan in the Washington Examiner which you might like to read
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dan-hannan-a-us-uk-deal-will-revolutionize-world-trade


Hannan is an atlas shrugger, he is a libertarian extremist with links to the dangerous Cato institute - we should be terrified by that article. Taking our country back means handing it over to corporate America @Magyarmum


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *You know what our problem is, in Britain?*
> 
> *1* The unelected House of Lords


Yep and they all need sacking and House of Lords got rid of. They get paid for doing nothing. They get paid for just showing their face and then going to the pub for the rest of the day. They get paid for falling asleep and grunting (because they are too sloshed or tired). I vote to get rid of them.


----------



## KittenKong

Ahem. If true, let's hope the government have got to grips with Universal Cedit by then, which I very much doubt.

Happy Brexit day to them....


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Yep and they all need sacking and House of Lords got rid of. They get paid for doing nothing. They get paid for just showing their face and then going to the pub for the rest of the day. They get paid for falling asleep and grunting (because they are too sloshed or tired). I vote to get rid of them.


No surprise you missed the point completely :Watching


----------



## stockwellcat.

The unelected doing what they do best and getting paid for it.


----------



## noushka05

They are going to torch social & environmental protections. This is what brexit was always about......

George Monbiot's warned us before the referendum & here is his response to the breaking news today.
*
This is terrifying, and requires our full attention and resistance. *https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs?CMP=share_btn_tw

Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal
Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire


*
*
(
*It is what Liam Fox was appointed to do. With the #DarkMoney-funded thinktanks, he
is using #Brexit to deliver what the billionaires want, but no one else voted for: *https://www.theguardian.com/comment...te-dark-money-power-atlantic-lobbyists-brexit

*How corporate dark money is taking power on both sides of the Atlantic*
A secretive network of business lobbyists has long held sway in US politics. Now their allies in the UK government are planning a Brexit that plays into their hands

*There are some deeply sinister forces at work in this country, and @LiamFox is their representative.*


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The unelected doing what they do best and getting paid for it.
> 
> View attachment 368811
> 
> View attachment 368812
> 
> View attachment 368813


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


He wasn't sleeping. The photographer snapped the picture as he frowned at a remainer MP's speech, leaned back and blinked. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


He was reacting to Chuka Umunna going off on one of his rants :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The unelected doing what they do best and getting paid for it.
> 
> View attachment 368811
> 
> View attachment 368812
> 
> View attachment 368813


Funny if you think about it.
The far left have long supported the abolition of the HOL, (and the monarchy).

They were a much loved British institution before making their voices heard over Brexit.

So, the far right now call for their abolition purely for questioning government policy? I thought that was their job.

You couldn't make it up!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> :Yawn
> 
> :Nailbiting
> 
> 
> 
> I see the fear mongering has gone into over drive (some remainers making a good job of stoking up fear, doom and gloom saying he said this, she said that).
> 
> So Christmas? New Year? or 29th March 2019? I have placed a bet on all 3 :Hilarious


You said this was scaremongering when remainers tried to warn you this was the likely outcome for our country if we voted leave - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs?CMP=share_btn_tw

Anyway enjoy your Randian dystopia.


----------



## noushka05

Nope it never was about taking back control David...

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 7m7 minutes ago
_Brexit was never really about taking back control. It's about handing over the NHS to foreign competition, starting a bonfire of 
consumer and environmental regulations, and taking rights away from workers.

We do not have to do this._

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

.


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien Pulls Apart Brexiteers' Plan For Irish Border In Just Two Minutes*


----------



## havoc

Grandiose terminology is all well and good but will those people who live in the border area be able to carry on as they have for years? That's the question those who will be affected day to day really want answered. Anything other than an open border may as well be a Berlin wall for small business and individuals.

I live in hope that whatever they eventually do to satisfy those who, by control of our own borders, mean making life a misery for anyone trying to cross them will create that wonderful situation we used to have whereby there's money to be made by inventive locals. In times gone by livestock and goods were moved back and forth across the border in VAT scams and the like. It will be nothing more than the government deserve if those days return.


----------



## Arnie83

Wrt the invisible Irish / NI border, I still haven't seen any proposals regarding non-Irish EU citizens waltzing into the UK. Am I missing something, or are we not going to control that border at all?


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting interview from Euronews with Guy Verhofstart on the Brexit negotiations.

https://www.euronews.com/video/2018...bright-side-of-brexit-and-reformism-in-the-eu


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Wrt the invisible Irish / NI border, I still haven't seen any proposals regarding non-Irish EU citizens waltzing into the UK. Am I missing something, or are we not going to control that border at all?


There isn't just one main road between the north and south. Even at the height of the troubles the border wasn't manned along its length. It's the thing people here on the mainland just don't get because they have no idea of the reality of land borders. Either we go for a Berlin Wall style arrangement or the border for humans will be .............. down the middle of the Irish Sea.


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> Grandiose terminology is all well and good but will those people who live in the border area be able to carry on as they have for years? That's the question those who will be affected day to day really want answered. Anything other than an open border may as well be a Berlin wall for small business and individuals.
> 
> I live in hope that whatever they eventually do to satisfy those who, by control of our own borders, mean making life a misery for anyone trying to cross them will create that wonderful situation we used to have whereby there's money to be made by inventive locals. In times gone by livestock and goods were moved back and forth across the border in VAT scams and the like. It will be nothing more than the government deserve if those days return.





Arnie83 said:


> Wrt the invisible Irish / NI border, I still haven't seen any proposals regarding non-Irish EU citizens waltzing into the UK. Am I missing something, or are we not going to control that border at all?


Have you's two seen this? I feel ever so sorry for the youngsters over there.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Have you's two seen this? I feel ever so sorry for the youngsters over there.


2 immediate problems I see.

1) They are to young to vote. They are only 16. By law in the UK you have to be 18 (NI is part of the UK). Only Scotland is exempt from this as they have the devolved powers to do this but I do believe that all voters had to be above 18 in the last referendum including in Scotland. NI does not have the same devolved powers as Scotland nor does Wales.

2) There has been no sitting devolved Government (a devolved Government in NI must consist of 2 parties) in Northern Ireland since January 2017 and there has been no election since the talks stalled with all parties in NI.

Sorry to put a dampner on the video noushka but the points I have made are very valid.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> 2 immediate problems I see.
> 
> 1) They are to young to vote. They are only 16. By law in the UK you have to be 18 (NI is part of the UK). Only Scotland is exempt from this as they have the devolved powers to do this but I do believe that all voters had to be above 18 in the last referendum including in Scotland. NI does not have the same devolved powers as Scotland nor does Wales.
> 
> 2) There has been no sitting devolved Government (a devolved Government in NI must consist of 2 parties) in Northern Ireland since January 2017 and there has been no election since the talks stalled with all parties in NI.
> 
> Sorry to put a dampner on the video noushka but the points I have made are very valid.


The immediate problem I see is brexiters dont care about those youngsters.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The immediate problem I see is brexiters dont care about those youngsters.


Well if the NI devolved political parties stoppped stalling the talks NI would have a voice around the negotiating table but they cannot agree to disagree to form a devolved Government which is a shame.

The Brexitiers in Parliament plan won't go anywhere. It's the Chequer's Deal or No Deal.

Do I care about NI? Of course I do. I'd be silly not to as my family are over there. My dad took me away from Northern Ireland when I was a child to get away from the troubles in the 1970's and 1980's. He hates going over there because the UDA and other ex paramilitary groups are pretty much in control of some areas of NI they are always in the newspapers over there taking each other out over drugs.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well if the NI devolved political parties stoppped stalling the talks NI would have a voice around the negotiating table but they cannot agree to disagree to form a devolved Government which is a shame.
> 
> The Brexitiers in Parliament plan won't go anywhere. It's the Chequer's Deal or No Deal.
> 
> Do I care about NI? Of course I do. I'd be silly not to as my family are over there. My dad took me away from Northern Ireland when I was a child to get away from the troubles in the 1970's and 1980's. He hates going over there because the UDA and other ex paramilitary groups are pretty much in control of some areas of NI they are always in the newspapers over there taking each other out over drugs.


Then you surely don't want a no deal or chequers deal?. Maintaining peace in Ireland must be priority.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Then you surely don't want a no deal or chequers deal?. Maintaining peace in Ireland must be priority.


Define peace. It is very, very fragile in Northern Ireland. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/su...teel-killer-fights-for-his-life-37323201.html

It's not peace as you and me know it like here in the England, Scotland and Wales. There is still a considerable amount of violence between the old paramilitary groups as they are still very active. But they tend to take each other out nowadays.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Define peace. It is very, very fragile in Northern Ireland. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/su...teel-killer-fights-for-his-life-37323201.html
> 
> It's not peace as you and me know it like here in the Uk. There is still a considerable amount of violence between the old paramilitary groups as they are still very active.


If I have to explain I can only assume you're very young and were born after the troubles. Please do some research SWC. To violate the Good Friday Agreement would be beyond reckless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If I have to explain I can only assume you're very young and were born after the troubles. Please do some research SWC. To violate the Good Friday Agreement would be beyond reckless.


What you bleeting about. I was born during the troubles. Stop jumping at me all the time. I now you are sincere about remaining like I am leaving. But surely we can have a conversation without you being patronising. My dad served in the British army during the troubles and was given the choice of either being stationed in NI after his tour of duty or going to West Germany. He chose West Germany. His friend got shot in NI right next to him whilst on out on patrol. They are times he would rather forget.


----------



## havoc

noushka05 said:


> Maintaining peace in Ireland must be priority.


You'd like to think so but it isn't a popular peace with many. It's just about impossible to explain the bigotry, misogyny and closed minded 'entitlement' of an NI loyalist.

eta: I was last over there about three weeks ago, going back in a couple of weeks so not speaking from any theoretical viewpoint


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> You'd like to think so but it isn't a popular peace with many. It's just about impossible to explain the bigotry, misogyny and closed minded 'entitlement' of an NI loyalist.
> 
> eta: I was last over there about three weeks ago, going back in a couple of weeks so not speaking from any theoretical viewpoint


My dad was over there 2 months ago and told me he couldn't wait to get back over here. Not theorising at all. Antrim is UDA territory gang wise (ex paramilitary group) and are in the newspapers alot over there. Peace in NI is fragile.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Antrim is UDA territory gang wise (ex paramilitary group).


Well thank you for explaining what the UDA are SWC  Obviously I never realised that in all our time of visiting family during the troubles, being briefed at the airport, reporting to barracks for a full security briefing 24 hours later, having to then change the hire car for one which hadn't been clocked going into the barracks and then getting on with our stay in the province :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Well thank you for explaining what the UDA are SWC  Obviously I never realised that in all our time of visiting family during the troubles, being briefed at the airport, reporting to barracks for a full security briefing 24 hours later, having to then change the hire car for one which hadn't been clocked going into the barracks and then getting on with our stay in the province :Hilarious


Well alot of people don't know who they are and they are still pretty active. I was to young at the time but my dad tells me what it was like. He hates going over to NI and has never enjoyed going over there.

I didn't mean to upset you @havoc. I was trying to explain to noushka and have a civilised conversation.

If the Brexitier MP's were to get their way it would be a problem (I doubt very much they will). But I do believe those doing the negotiating (UK and EU side) are trying to protect the Good Friday agreement. Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> He hates going over to NI and has never enjoyed going over there


Must be the area he goes to then then. I always enjoy visiting even though I could never live there. I even enjoyed going when it was considered dangerous for us to do so. Strange how you see Antrim as such an awful place and yet it has become the popular coast with house prices reflecting this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Must be the area he goes to then then. I always enjoy visiting even though I could never live there. I even enjoyed going when it was considered dangerous for us to do so. Strange how you see Antrim as such an awful place and yet it has become the popular coast with house prices reflecting this.


I don't see it as awful. My dad tells me that I don't want to go over there and puts me off going by being so negative about the part of Antrim I am from and I want to to see my family, but he puts me off every time. I haven't been to NI since I was 12.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The Brexitiers in Parliament plan won't go anywhere. It's the Chequer's Deal or No Deal.


So, given the Ireland problem, are you supporting Chequers now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> are you supporting Chequers now?


Not if you pay me a million quid. Still not supporting the Chequers Deal no way.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Not if you pay me a million quid. Still not supporting the Chequers Deal no way.


So what do you think No Deal will do to Ireland?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So what do you think No Deal will do to Ireland?


We'll have to see how this goes first.

*Brexit: EU 'ready to improve' Irish border proposal*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45566205

The EU is "ready to improve" its offer on the Irish border, Michel Barnier has said as he warned the "moment of truth" was nearing for Brexit negotiations.

The EU's negotiator said he wanted most new physical checks to be carried out away from the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, a key demand of Conservative MPs.

*He also said any backstop solution must respect the UK's territorial integrity.

*
-----------------
The EU, he said, would consider how and where physical checks on goods crossing the border were carried out and, critically, who performed them - amid reports the EU may be willing to allow British officials to do so.

"We are clarifying which goods arriving in Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK would need to be checked and where, when and by whom these checks could be performed," he said. "We can also clarify that most checks can take place away from the border at a company premises or at the markets."
-------------

This news is now starting to be run in all the newspapers.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> We'll have to see how this goes first.
> 
> *Brexit: EU 'ready to improve' Irish border proposal*
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45566205
> 
> The EU is "ready to improve" its offer on the Irish border, Michel Barnier has said as he warned the "moment of truth" was nearing for Brexit negotiations.
> 
> The EU's negotiator said he wanted most new physical checks to be carried out away from the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, a key demand of Conservative MPs.
> 
> *He also said any backstop solution must respect the UK's territorial integrity.
> 
> *
> -----------------
> The EU, he said, would consider how and where physical checks on goods crossing the border were carried out and, critically, who performed them - amid reports the EU may be willing to allow British officials to do so.
> 
> "We are clarifying which goods arriving in Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK would need to be checked and where, when and by whom these checks could be performed," he said. "We can also clarify that most checks can take place away from the border at a company premises or at the markets."
> -------------
> 
> This news is now starting to be run in all the newspapers.


Yes, but a deal on Ireland is not No Deal. If Chequers or its final negotiated form is rejected, there is No Deal. None of the above applies. And you've said you support No Deal over Chequers.


----------



## KittenKong

Hilarious, but true!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yes, but a deal on Ireland is not No Deal. If Chequers or its final negotiated form is rejected, there is No Deal. None of the above applies. And you've said you support No Deal over Chequers.


Still I wouldn't vote to stay remained shackled to the EU with May's Chequers Deal.

Northern Ireland has been on the brink of decending back to the way it was since the fragile Good Friday Agreement was signed. The Para-military groups still cause trouble selling drugs and killing each other even today (there is plenty of newspaper articles to back this up).

I would still not vote for May's Chequers Deal if it is changed or not.


----------



## KittenKong

Reading between the lines there's nothing new in the EU's solution to the Irish border which effectively keeps NI in the SM and CU already ruled out by that bloody difficult woman, (May said it herself).

Meanwhile she continues her trips within other EU countries to sell her Brexit plan, hoping they'll cave into her demands.

I agree with SWC re the Chequers plan. In the very unlikely event of a people's vote being permitted they'll be an opportunity to vote against it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Reading between the lines there's nothing new


There is something new. Michael Gove blatantly lying to us trying to sell TM's Chequers Deal saying the PM or any future PM can change it when we have left the EU. I am not a fool which he is trying to make everyone out to be.


> Meanwhile she continues her trips within other EU countries


Using tax payers money to do so.


> I agree with SWC re the Chequers plan.


Well at least we agree on something although for totally different reasons.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Reading between the lines there's nothing new in the EU's solution to the Irish border which effectively keeps NI in the SM and CU already ruled out by that bloody difficult woman, (May said it herself).
> 
> Meanwhile she continues her trips within other EU countries to sell her Brexit plan,* hoping they'll cave into her demands.*
> 
> agree with SWC re the Chequers plan. In the very unlikely event of a people's vote being permitted they'll be an opportunity to vote against it!


I really don't see why they should.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Northern Ireland has been on the brink of decending back to the way it was since the fragile Good Friday Agreement was signed. The Para-military groups still cause trouble selling drugs and killing each other even today (there is plenty of newspaper articles to back this up).


As happens in every city/area in England. Gangs control drugs and kill each other. You could just as well say London or Manchester is 'special' and different. Members are just lowlife scum criminal types wherever they operate and whatever they call themselves. There's enough of an issue to sort out over that border without trying to afford such thugs or their gangs any legitimacy because they hang onto names from times past.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Still I wouldn't vote to stay remained shackled to the EU with May's Chequers Deal.
> 
> Northern Ireland has been on the brink of decending back to the way it was since the fragile Good Friday Agreement was signed. The Para-military groups still cause trouble selling drugs and killing each other even today (there is plenty of newspaper articles to back this up).
> 
> I would still not vote for May's Chequers Deal if it is changed or not.


I can't use any facts to counter an emotional decision, of course.

For my part, though, I have no feeling of being 'shackled' to anything. I follow the laws of the land as determined in Westminster, but since I don't manufacture and trade anything I don't suppose I follow any EU rules at all, and certainly none that was imposed against my will.

If we leave with No Deal we, like the EU, will be equally shackled by the WTO rules - which every country tries to make less onerous through specific trade deals - and I don't suppose that will impact my psyche very much either.

I understand how someone can feel sufficiently motivated to prefer economic damage in the UK for up to 50 years (Rees-Mogg's figure) and possible deaths in Northern Ireland, but it isn't for me.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> There is something new. Michael Gove blatantly lying to us trying to sell TM's Chequers Deal saying the PM or any future PM can change it when we have left the EU.


No agreement with the EU can bind the hands of a future UK Prime Minister. Gove is absolutely right. Once we're out Parliament can do whatever it wants. (As it can now, of course; hence the fact that we are leaving the EU after Parliament voted to trigger A50.)


----------



## Arnie83

This is quite / very long, authoritative and, frankly, scary.

It's a speech by Sir Ivan Rogers, formerly our chief UK / EU diplomat, to the British Chamber of Commerce.

In my opinion, despite him being just about the leading expert on the subject, it would be monumentally silly airily to dismiss what he says.

http://www.britishirishchamber.com/...irish-chamber-of-commerce-annual-gala-dinner/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the hills where alive last night with the sound of "no, no, no". EU leaders saying "no" and the PM saying "no".

Are the talks about to stall for the very last time?
Is the UK about to walk out of the negotiations?
Is the PM about to declare a "no deal"?
The EU want Brexit reworking completely on the Economic Partnership from the UK's side. The PM said "no". The PM asked the EU to comprimise on the Irish border, they said "no". Stale mate situation.

*Brexit: The sound of "no, no, no"*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45582911

*Theresa May tells EU27 she won't delay Brexit despite lack of a deal*
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...-she-wont-delay-brexit-despite-lack-of-a-deal

The question is will the 80 leave MP's now be behind May to deliver "no deal" which is what they wanted as it looks like the Chequers Deal is well and truely rejected? This is exactly what May wanted to deliver Brexit as she knew when she proposed the Chequers deal that it would be rejected.

Remember: The EU keep saying *nothing is agreed until everything is agreed *- This includes the £39billion so would have no legality in court. So perhaps Raab is right that the UK won't have to pay the full amount only the obligations we are tied into until the day we leave or walk away.

The Tory Party conference will be interesting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> This is quite / very long, authoritative and, frankly, scary.
> 
> It's a speech by Sir Ivan Rogers, formerly our chief UK / EU diplomat, to the British Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> In my opinion, despite him being just about the leading expert on the subject, it would be monumentally silly airily to dismiss what he says.
> 
> http://www.britishirishchamber.com/...irish-chamber-of-commerce-annual-gala-dinner/


He can be authoritive as he wants. He's the ex ambassador to the UK and a remainer so of course some remainers will believe him being absolutely negative about Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

No Gibraltar border proposal that we know of.
You can’t imagine how worried people are. All our jobs, our supplies depend on it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the hills where alive last night with the sound of "no, no, no". EU leaders saying "no" and the PM saying "no".
> 
> Are the talks about to stall for the very last time?
> Is the UK about to walk out of the negotiations?
> Is the PM about to declare a "no deal"?
> The EU want Brexit reworking completely on the Economic Partnership from the UK's side. The PM said "no". The PM asked the EU to comprimise on the Irish border, they said "no". Stale mate situation.
> 
> *Brexit: The sound of "no, no, no"*
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45582911
> 
> *Theresa May tells EU27 she won't delay Brexit despite lack of a deal*
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...-she-wont-delay-brexit-despite-lack-of-a-deal
> 
> The question is will the 80 leave MP's now be behind May to deliver "no deal" which is what they wanted as it looks like the Chequers Deal is well and truely rejected? This is exactly what May wanted to deliver Brexit as she knew when she proposed the Chequers deal that it would be rejected.
> 
> Remember: The EU keep saying *nothing is agreed until everything is agreed *- This includes the £39billion so would have no legality in court. So perhaps Raab is right that the UK won't have to pay the full amount only the obligations we are tied into until the day we leave or walk away.
> 
> The Tory Party conference will be interesting.


Well, depending what you read TM is ready to accept a sea border between NI and the rest of the UK according to the Independent. This will effectively keep NI in the SM and CU if true.

I wonder what the DUP would have to say about that?!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ry-checks-theresa-may-salzburg-a8545701.html#


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I wonder what the DUP would have to say about that?!


*New EU terms still mean unacceptable Irish sea border - DUP*

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1LZ0VE

The PM won't accept it either as it would mean splitting the UK's internal market up and the UK.

It's the EU demanding a border in the sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It won't happen. It is the EU trying to split the UK up by doing this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Interesting the EU choose Salzburg as the setting for the EU conference on Brexit. Something else happened in Salzburg in 1936 involving the real Von Trapp family....

You must admit though the film was good as well.









http://www.ebners-waldhof.com/von-trapp-family

https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps.html


----------



## AlexPed2393

Not entirely brexit but this came out this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...sier-reveals-secret-plan-replace-theresa-may/

shows instability within the party and May's lack of leadership


----------



## noushka05

James O'Briens response to Raabs letter to Starmer:Hilarious


_It's an incredibly high bar but Dominic Raab might actually be more useless than David Davis._


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> James O'Briens response to Raabs letter to Starmer:Hilarious
> 
> 
> _It's an incredibly high bar but Dominic Raab might actually be more useless than David Davis._


So sending this letter makes him useless?
No he is not. He is reminding the opposion (Labour) which party (Conservstives) is in Government and that a deal is within reach and what was voted for in 2016 which included no further referendums on the issue (Cameron repeatedly said this) and sorry but that's what everyone who voted, voted for.

If you read what he says are very valid points.

The Labour leader (Jeremy Corbyn) has not clarified where he stands on Brexit and it is down to him at the end of the day to declare where Labour stands. Some Labour MP's are trying to frustrate the Brexit process which was voted for by Labour before the referendum in 2016 in the referendum act which made the Referendum law.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It's the EU demanding a border in the sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It won't happen. It is the EU trying to split the UK up by doing this.


The UK is doing a very good job at splitting itself up with no help from outside influences! It's ironic the UK had a far better chance of remaining united as an EU member as the result of the Scottish Independence referendum revealed in 2014.

With TM frequently bleating on about, "No Irish borders of the past", the EU's solution is one, if not the only plausible way of avoiding a land border with the ROI if the UK must leave the SM and CU as Theresa May insists it will do.

The only alternative to avoiding a border is either for the entire UK to remain in the EU, as it still is at present, or for TM to accept EEA like SM membership plus Customs Union. May has ruled these out too.

Do you have any thoughts on how to avoid a border, or do you think they should just get on with making preparations for checks at the UK/EU border ready for Brexit day?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The UK is doing a very good job at splitting itself up with no help from outside influences! It's ironic the UK had a far better chance of remaining united as an EU member as the result of the Scottish Independence referendum revealed in 2014.
> 
> With TM frequently bleating on about, "No Irish borders of the past", the EU's solution is one, if not the only plausible way of avoiding a land border with the ROI if the UK must leave the SM and CU as Theresa May insists it will do.
> 
> The only alternative to avoiding a border is either for the entire UK to remain in the EU, as it still is at present, or for TM to accept EEA like SM membership plus Customs Union. May has ruled these out too.
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on how to avoid a border, or do you think they should just get on with making preparations for checks at the UK/EU border ready for Brexit day?


The *only* people talking about border checks and inspections on the Island of Ireland are the EU. Protectionism at it's best. The UK has said that Irish citizens are very welcome in the UK as before Brexit and so are EU citizens. The EU want UK drivers to get a permit before driving in any country in the EU, the UK said that no such permits will be needed over here. Do you see who is showing there true colours here?Who is becoming protectionist here? Not the UK by the way.

The UK want no border on the Island of Ireland, the EU are talking about checks and the such and being difficult by not accepting or working on any proposal. Protectionism again. I thought the EU was against Protectionism? Obviously not.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The *only* people talking about border checks and inspections on the Island of Ireland are the EU. Protrectionism at it's best. The UK has said that Irish citizens are very welcome in the UK as before Brexit and so are EU citizens. The EU want UK drivers to get a permit before driving in any country in the EU, the UK said that no such permits will be needed over here. Do you see who is showing there true colours here?Who is becoming protectionist here? Not the UK by the way.
> 
> The UK want no border on the Island of Ireland, the EU are talking about checks and the such and being difficult by not accepting or working on any proposal. Protectionism again. I thought the EU was against Protectionism? Obviously not.


Ahem, remind me who asked to leave the EU? It wasn't Brussels or the other 27 member countries from what I remember.

The UK bleats on about taking back control of its borders which rather contradicts them not wanting an EU/UK one in Ireland.

And the EU in turn must take control of their borders between themselves and non member states which will include the UK once it leaves.

May be one rule for Irish citizens, courtesy of the GF agreement, but
as for your comments on other EU citizens being welcome here, where on earth did you hear that? I thought Brexit was all about immigration controls and the ending of free movement!

The last I heard was, post Brexit, EU citizens won't have preference to others. In other words a citizen of France would have to go through the same protocol as someone arriving in the UK, say from Brazil.

As it is, existing citizens from other EU states will have to register for a fee with no guarantees of being able to remain in the UK.

After the way Theresa May's policies have treated the children from the Windrush generation, whether deliberate or through incompetence.....

The UK want to end free movement for citizens from other EU countries which in turn will end vice versa.

As the UK will soon no longer be an EU member, it's only right UK citizens will need visas, IDPs and the likes should the same apply to EU citizens coming to a post Brexit UK.

I would have thought you'd support that, not wanting anything to do with the EU?

Source- BBC


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting the EU choose Salzburg as the setting for the EU conference on Brexit. Something else happened in Salzburg in 1936 involving the real Von Trapp family....
> 
> You must admit though the film was good as well.
> 
> View attachment 369053
> 
> http://www.ebners-waldhof.com/von-trapp-family
> 
> https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps.html


Conversely, the Nazis evolved from one country enforcing their will onto others. It could be argued the UK are attempting the same here.

Mind you, I'm in full agreement about it being a good film.

I usually find musicals a turn off but "The Sound of Music" is certainly an exception. Made the year I was born too (1965).


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Conversely, the Nazis evolved from one country enforcing their will onto others


If you read the real story of what happened in the national archives the Von Trapps won a singing competition in 1936 in Salzburg and fled in 1938/1939 Austria on a train to Italy and then onto America. I was referring to them winning the singing contest and nothing else seeing as this was the event that took place in Salzburg .


> Mind you, I'm in full agreement about it being a good film.


The film was excellent but was based partly on real life events and partly on a book Maria Von Trapp wrote.


> I usually find musicals a turn off but "The Sound of Music" is certainly an exception.


I agree.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> He can be authoritive as he wants. He's the ex ambassador to the UK and a remainer so of course some remainers will believe him being absolutely negative about Brexit.


That's the spirit.


----------



## Elles

It could be argued that we’re doing the complete opposite of the nazis. They wanted to take over every other country and rule them, we want to separate from every other country and have no say in their affairs at all. That was one of the Remainers arguments. Outside the Eu we have no influence.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The question is will the 80 leave MP's now be behind May to deliver "no deal" which is what they wanted as* it looks like the Chequers Deal is well and truely rejected*? This is exactly what May wanted to deliver Brexit as she knew when she proposed the Chequers deal that it would be rejected.





stockwellcat. said:


> So sending this letter makes him useless?
> No he is not. He is reminding the opposion (Labour) which party (Conservstives) is in Government and that *a deal is within reach*


How can a deal be "well and truly rejected" and still be "within reach"?

And if May actually wants a No Deal Brexit, what turned her from a Remain voter, who stated publicly that Brexit would damage the economy, into someone who is actively pursuing the most damaging Brexit possible?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It could be argued that we're doing the complete opposite of the nazis. They wanted to take over every other country and rule them, we want to separate from every other country and have no say in their affairs at all. That was one of the Remainers arguments. Outside the Eu we have no influence.


It could in turn be argued the CM/EEC/EU was established to prevent a situation that started in Germany in the 1930s from ever happening again!

Probably why this government are forming alliances with far right Eurosceptic groups elsewhere in Europe......


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And if May actually wants a No Deal Brexit, what turned her from a Remain voter, who stated publicly that Brexit would damage the economy, into someone who is actively pursuing the most damaging Brexit possible?


You really think May had a choice? Cameron threatened to sack conservative MP's who voted leave.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/08/david-cameron-tory-ministers-face-sack-eu-exit

In Theresa May's heart of hearts wanted to vote leave. Why go through the Brexit process if she didn't?

If she wanted in her heart of hearts to remain why did she go through with the whole Brexit process then?

Theresa May signing Article 50.









If Theresa May didn't want Brexit and wanted to remain she would not have respected the referendum result and would not have triggered article 50


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You really think May had a choice? Cameron threatened to sack conservative MP's who voted leave.
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/08/david-cameron-tory-ministers-face-sack-eu-exit
> 
> In Theresa May's heart of hearts wanted to vote leave. Why go through the Brexit process if she didn't?
> 
> If she wanted in her heart of hearts to remain why did she go through with the whole Brexit process then?
> 
> Theresa May signing Article 50.
> View attachment 369080
> 
> 
> If Theresa May didn't want Brexit and wanted to remain she would not have respected the referendum result and would not have triggered article 50


Surely, seeing that Johnson and Gove were examples of MPs who backed Leave where did that come from?

To me, the sudden change of stance on becoming Prime Minister is what makes Theresa May more dangerous. She's proven to be a bare faced liar.

It would be akin to Boris Johnson taking over a PM then coming out as a remainer!

How can anyone trust someone like that?

If it's true she was threateand with dismissal if she backed leave she would have gained more respect if she came over as a Brexiter then resigned as Home Secretary to fight her cause, just as Davis and Johnson did more recently over her Chequers plan.

And just to balance things out, here's the leader of the so called opposition behind a similar banner....


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> You really think May had a choice? Cameron threatened to sack conservative MP's who voted leave.
> 
> In Theresa May's heart of hearts wanted to vote leave. Why go through the Brexit process if she didn't?
> 
> If she wanted in her heart of hearts to remain why did she go through with the whole Brexit process then?
> 
> Theresa May signing Article 50.
> View attachment 369080
> 
> 
> If Theresa May didn't want Brexit and wanted to remain she would not have respected the referendum result and would not have triggered article 50


Career Politician.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> where did that come from?


The Guardian Newspaper that backed remain.


> To me, the sudden change of stance on achieving power is what makes Theresa May more dangerous. She's proven to be a bare faced liar.


No it proves she wanted to vote leave all along.



> And just to balance things out, here's the leader of the so called opposition behind a similar banner....


Yet now he wants his own version of Brexit not to stop it. So how can he be trusted? Whoops sorry. No one knows where he stands now. He still cannot be trusted.


----------



## Elles

So you seriously think that Britain wants to take over the rest of Europe and Theresa May is a megalomaniac?

Of course she wanted to be on the Remain side before the referendum, all the forecasts and polls said remain would win. However she wouldn’t have applied for the job if she wasn’t going to give leaving a go, or at least appear to. She’d have run for the hills like Cameron. As Stuart says, career politician. She’s ambitious not stupid.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No it proves she wanted to vote leave all along.


She shouldn't have lied then and backed the leave campaign.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> She's ambitious not stupid.


I agree, but calling a snap election when she did very soon after triggering Article 50 and with months of saying they wouldn't be one wasn't clever though was it?!

It gives the impression of someone very indecisive her mentor Margaret Thatcher never was.

The same could be said about Corbyn, though to be fair his heart clearly wasn't in backing the Labour leave campaign. He should have been more honest though.

Then he reportedly called for triggering Article 50 the day after the referendum!


----------



## Elles

That would probably be down in part to the forecasts and the pollsters saying it she’d win outright and getting it wrong again. Plus in part to needing the country behind her, it was a clever move, just the predictions were wrong again. They didn’t take into account the young falling for Corbyn’s trickery.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> She *shouldn't have lied* then and backed the leave campaign.


Put Brexit aside. This is what politicians do all the time, lie. This is what get's them to win elections. How many times did U-Turn Dave (David Cameron) lie? I lost count. In election campaigns they promise the earth to voters and provide sour cream when they win.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Interesting piece in the Gaurdian for those seeking a peoples votes.

*'Not enough time' to hold referendum on final deal before Brexit*

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...o-hold-referendum-on-final-deal-before-brexit

It looks like there won't be enough time to hold a fresh referendum before 29th March 2019.


















We have to take into consideration Christmas term time in Parliament when nothing gets done until mid January.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> No it proves she wanted to vote leave all along.
> 
> Yet now he wants his own version of Brexit not to stop it. So how can he be trusted? Whoops sorry. No one knows where he stands now. He still cannot be trusted.


Hang on. Here we have two politicians who both backed remain during the referendum campaign, and now both now back the result of the referendum (aka 'the Will of the People' - oh, how I dislike that phrase...).

In one, this proves that they have always been a Leaver at heart.

In the other, it means they can't possibly be trusted.

Much as I admire your passion, there is a rather significant level of logical disconnect between those two conclusions.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You really think May had a choice? Cameron threatened to sack conservative MP's who voted leave.
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/08/david-cameron-tory-ministers-face-sack-eu-exit
> 
> In Theresa May's heart of hearts wanted to vote leave. Why go through the Brexit process if she didn't?
> 
> If she wanted in her heart of hearts to remain why did she go through with the whole Brexit process then?
> 
> Theresa May signing Article 50.
> View attachment 369080
> 
> 
> If Theresa May didn't want Brexit and wanted to remain she would not have respected the referendum result and would not have triggered article 50


I'll see your Guardian article from June 2015, and raise you a Guardian article from January 2016

*David Cameron confirms ministers can campaign for 'Brexit'*
*PM tells Commons that government will make a clear EU referendum recommendation but cabinet members will be free to oppose it*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...id-cameron-confirms-ministers-campaign-brexit

And of course that's exactly what happened, with no sackings.

After the vote, obviously, she had to promise to deliver Brexit in order to become Prime Minister. It seems to me more likely that, as a Remainer, she feels a duty to deliver Brexit, but she wants to deliver a Brexit that is as soft as possible, and that the last thing she wants is a No Deal Brexit.

She's been stringing along the likes of Boris, Gove and Davis until she came up with her own Chequers plan, which she sprung on them without warning, causing resignations.

The government is now making clear what a disaster No Deal would be, with all the technical notes they're issuing, in the hope that Parliament won't dare reject whatever she puts in front of them at the end of the negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Hang on. Here we have two politicians who both backed remain during the referendum campaign, and now both now back the result of the referendum (aka 'the Will of the People' - oh, how I dislike that phrase...).
> 
> In one, this proves that they have always been a Leaver at heart.


Correct



> there is a rather significant level of logical disconnect between those two conclusions.


Not really no.

Not when your party leader wants to enforce his will on his party ministers to vote his way like Cameron did as pointed out in the Guardian newspaper article I posted that proves this. It wasn't a matter of how his ministers wanted to vote it was what he wanted to happen. He didn't want to lose, but he did. Jeremy Corbyn is just a weak leader that goes with the flow. Yes he voted remain but he was quick in showing his true colours when he agreed with May all the time when she became PM. Corbyn wants a Labour Brexit, Len McClusky outlined this a fee weeks back when he told Labour MP's to get behind Corbyn or leave.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting piece in the Gaurdian for those seeking a peoples votes.
> 
> *'Not enough time' to hold referendum on final deal before Brexit*
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...o-hold-referendum-on-final-deal-before-brexit
> 
> It looks like there won't be enough time to hold a fresh referendum before 29th March 2019.
> 
> View attachment 369101
> 
> 
> View attachment 369100
> 
> We have to take into consideration Christmas term time in Parliament when nothing gets done until mid January.


There would have to be an extension to A50, as I posted a few days ago.


----------



## Elles

People trust politicians? :Hilarious

The last trustworthy politician was Maggie T. Unless you count the grey man John Major, I think he was trustworthy, though I’m not sure.

Theresa has always been angling for staying the Eu, or as close as possible imho.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> There would have to be an extension to A50, as I posted a few days ago.


That's if the EU agree to it. But May has said no to any extension again today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

All 27 EU Leaders have rejected May's Chequers deal. D-Day ultimatium given May has to come up with something before the October summit to see if a November summit will be called. They don't like the economic proposal as it will undermine the single market.

Theresa May has said extending article 50 is not an option and has also said the Chequers deal is the only option on the table.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-latest-eu-no-deal-chequers-plan-theresa-may-emmanuel-macron-edited-a8547076.html%3famp


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> People trust politicians? :Hilarious
> *
> The last trustworthy politician was Maggie T.* Unless you count the grey man John Major, I think he was trustworthy, though I'm not sure.
> 
> Theresa has always been angling for staying the Eu, or as close as possible imho.


:Hilarious Comedy gold.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> They didn't take into account the young falling for Corbyn's trickery.


Can you explain what you mean by this Elles?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Can you explain what you mean by this Elles?


Corbyn's promise to do away with university fees and the implication, uncorrected until after the election, that his government would wipe out current debt, left many young people feeling duped. The usual politician's trickery.

Margaret Thatcher was honest, at least people knew what not to like about her, or what to disagree with.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> *So sending this letter makes him useless?*
> No he is not. He is reminding the opposion (Labour) which party (Conservstives) is in Government and that a deal is within reach and what was voted for in 2016 which included no further referendums on the issue (Cameron repeatedly said this) and sorry but that's what everyone who voted, voted for.
> 
> If you read what he says are very valid points.
> 
> The Labour leader (Jeremy Corbyn) has not clarified where he stands on Brexit and it is down to him at the end of the day to declare where Labour stands. Some Labour MP's are trying to frustrate the Brexit process which was voted for by Labour before the referendum in 2016 in the referendum act which made the Referendum law.


The letter just confirms it


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Corbyn's promise to do away with university fees and the implication, uncorrected until after the election, that his government would wipe out current debt, left many young people feeling duped. The usual politician's trickery.
> .


But he did not promise that Elles. I'm sure I've corrected you before on this. My children weren't duped. I think you'll find many youngsters supported Corbyn because under him they were offered a clear alternative to Thatcherism. Many of the youngsters I know personally have social values, hopefully the many more I dont know do too.

*No, Corbyn did not 'pledge to abolish student debt*

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/no-corbyn-did-not-pledge-to-abolish-student-debt


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> All 27 EU Leaders have rejected May's Chequers deal. D-Day ultimatium given May has to come up with something before the October summit to see if a November summit will be called. They don't like the economic proposal as it will undermine the single market.
> 
> Theresa May has said extending article 50 is not an option and has also said the Chequers deal is the only option on the table.


Politicians say a lot of things, especially when they're negotiating. It's who blinks first that matters.

What they're ALL saying across the whole of Europe - except Rees-Mogg's extremists - is that they want to avoid a No Deal.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Put Brexit aside. This is what politicians do all the time, lie. This is what get's them to win elections. How many times did U-Turn Dave (David Cameron) lie? I lost count. In election campaigns they promise the earth to voters and provide sour cream when they win.


In all fairness to David Cameron he didn't suddenly become a rabid hard Brexiter the next morning!

Then he was stupid enough to call the referendum in the first place believing he would win it.


----------



## Elles

He didn’t promise to abolish student debt, but many thought he did and he didn’t correct them until after the election. It was the usual wishy washy stuff, same in your link. Trickery. I didn’t accuse him of lying. It was politician speak.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> People trust politicians? :Hilarious
> 
> The last trustworthy politician was Maggie T. Unless you count the grey man John Major, I think he was trustworthy, though I'm not sure.
> 
> Theresa has always been angling for staying the Eu, or as close as possible imho.


Ooh controversial! 

I'm pretty sure Maggie forgot to tell us that her monetary policy would lead to 3 million unemployed, but what she *did* say she usually stuck to!

As for Major, you might have to ask Norma how trustworthy he was!

But for May on Brexit, I think most of what she says represents a current and flexible position, or more likely a bluff.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Margaret Thatcher was honest, at least people knew what not to like about her, or what to disagree with.


You probably wouldn't think that if you'd lived through the miners strike. Or were from Liverpool. Her trickle down ideology is one of the biggest cons ever pulled by a politician. Although I despise what Thatcher stood for, I can accept that she was probably sincere about her ideology though, even if it was a dreadful and mistaken.

Dennis Skinner pulls no punches lol


----------



## Elles

Her policies might have led to unemployment, but it was going to happen regardless. If she hadn’t closed the mines, the Greens would have. Her policies also led to a lot of people being a lot better off and having opportunities they wouldn’t have otherwise. Technology of course had a part to play too.

Ironically cow's milk isn’t good for kids and coal mines aren’t good for the environment.


----------



## Elles

Oh and I did live through the miner’s strikes. I also lived up North in a one parent family, with my abusive mother and her many ‘boyfriends’ and my 3 siblings on the dhss, then in lodgings with a job by 1972. You assume quite a lot about me.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Her policies might have led to unemployment, but it was going to happen regardless. If she hadn't closed the mines, the Greens would have. Her policies also led to a lot of people being a lot better off and having opportunities they wouldn't have otherwise. Technology of course had a part to play too.
> 
> Ironically cow's milk isn't good for kids and coal mines aren't good for the environment.


She was a PROVEN liar Elles


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> She was a PROVEN liar Elles


She wasn't. She believed in what she was saying. It's completely different.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Oh and I did live through the miner's strikes. I also lived up North in a one parent family, with my abusive mother and her many 'boyfriends' and my 3 siblings on the dhss, then in lodgings with a job by 1972. You assume quite a lot about me.


If you were from a mining community I would have thought you'd have been aware she was a liar. Thats why I made the assumption you possibly weren't.

Were you living up't North during the strike though?

(and I am sorry you didnt have a very nice childhood Elles)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Her policies might have led to unemployment, but it was going to happen regardless. If she hadn't closed the mines, the Greens would have. Her policies also led to a lot of people being a lot better off and having opportunities they wouldn't have otherwise. Technology of course had a part to play too.
> 
> Ironically cow's milk isn't good for kids and coal mines aren't good for the environment.


Milk is better than most things our kids drink anyway.
Unless you're intolerant.

Any one except me here actually cares what happens to Gibraltar?

Most proud of Being British? 
Now a sacrificial goat.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> She wasn't. She believed in what she was saying. It's completely different.


She was. We have evidence in the form of released documents to prove she blatently lied about pit closures - vindicating Scargill.

I like Alex Nunns. This shows just how toxic she really was.

https://www.redpepper.org.uk/dispelling-the-thatcher-myths/


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Milk is better than most things our kids drink anyway.
> Unless you're intolerant.
> 
> Any one except me here actually cares what happens to Gibraltar?
> 
> Most proud of Being British?
> Now a sacrificial goat.


I do Cheeky.

There are going to be so many sacrifices on the alter of brexit, My hubbies & my best friends hubbies jobs are looking increasingly perilous. And they work in different industries at that Hubby in steel recycling, friends OH works for an alarm company - both depend upon free access to the EU though.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> If you were from a mining community I would have thought you'd have been aware she was a liar. Thats why I made the assumption you possible weren't.


I needed some help when I was desperate and got it, I didn't need mollycoddling with everything handed to me on a plate. I'm a capitalist and Thatcher fan at heart. I want everyone to be well off and be encouraged to do it. I think if we give people too many get out of jail free cards, they carry on stealing.

The main thing I don't agree with is how the elderly and less able bodied/minded are treated these days. They should get everything handed to them on a plate and they don't. We're too greedy to do it.

And no cheeky, milk isn't better, for the kids, the cows, or the environment, but that's another thread and we already have those.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *Her policies might have led to unemployment, but it was going to happen regardless.* If she hadn't closed the mines, the Greens would have. Her policies also led to a lot of people being a lot better off and having opportunities they wouldn't have otherwise. Technology of course had a part to play too.
> 
> Ironically cow's milk isn't good for kids and coal mines aren't good for the environment.


At risk of wandering further away from Brexit ...

She wanted to get control of inflation - a good thing - and to get the bad stuff out the way in time to win the next election, so she slashed the annual increase in money supply from the 20+% at which it had been running to 4% 'overnight'. It was an economic shock that the economy could only react to by increasing unemployment (to cut a longer explanation short.)

Had she cut the money supply increase more gradually, it would have given time to adjust and the contraction would have been much less. She saw unemployment - otherwise known as real people losing their jobs - as 'a price worth paying'. In effect, she sacrificed them to get re-elected. That's when I started to go off the Tories.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'm a capitalist and Thatcher fan at heart


Really?? I'd never have guessed.



(I'll respond in full to your post later - got to do the tea now though)


----------



## Elles

Lol, this does seem to be moving a bit far away from Brexit I agree. However it is related. It’s the blame game, which led to the referendum in the first place.

When I left school, people were guaranteed a job, there were more jobs than there were people available to do them. It was never even considered that you wouldn’t get something. The increase in unemployment was down to a number of factors, not just Margaret Thatcher’s policies. It was going to happen regardless. Some of the blame does have to be laid squarely at her policies and the Conservative party of the day, but not all of it.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> If you were from a mining community I would have thought you'd have been aware she was a liar. Thats why I made the assumption you possibly weren't.
> 
> Were you living up't North during the strike though?
> 
> (and I am sorry you didnt have a very nice childhood Elles)


Thanks and yes I was living up North at the time. I remember it well. Should've taken out shares in Bryant and May and candles. Not that I had any money.


----------



## Elles

Yes, of course I care about Gibraltar. All being well my first grandchild will be born there in a few weeks.  Ryanair are starting cheap flights to Malaga from Exeter, so Gibraltar might be getting a few more visits from me than originally intended.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yes, of course I care about Gibraltar. All being well my first grandchild will be born there in a few weeks.  Ryanair are starting cheap flights to Malaga from Exeter, so Gibraltar might be getting a few more visits from me than originally intended.


Congratulations!!!! If you here then drop a pm and we can carry on the debate at Bruno's or any other watering hole  here.

Scrip can join us.

As to MT the foreign politics was successful and the world respected her and Britain. Spain prepared the coup to grab Gibraltar but they backed off and frontier was opened.

Though she lost the plot later on - I lived in Hull... seen the devastation around North East.
Mixed feelings as to TM. 
But she was definitely pro joining and staying in European Community.
She would put end to this Brexit nonsense if she were a PM.


----------



## Elles

I think someone more like Maggie would have been able to read what was going on more accurately and been better able to influence the Eu and British policies and negate the need for any referendum. Our politicians aren’t very respected at the moment and people see too much in fighting, we have no one who is strong and charismatic. I would have voted for Obama if he’d been leading one of our political parties.  It’s often more about personality than policy, especially today imho.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Jesthar said:


> DM are about as plausible as the Flat Earth society, though  I'll wait for official announcements.
> 
> Oh glory, not the 'using technology along the border' line _again_! Anyone spouting that line still clearly has no idea of the work involved in setting something up like that, even if the necessary technology actually existed and was ready to go, which as far as I am aware (as a tech industry insider) is not the case. And even if you do find some existing technology that would sort of do, that kind of gear is never off the shelf. Even assuming anyone can actually agree the project paramaters in the first place; just writing the spec is likely to take a couple of years.
> 
> The may as well annouce that leprechauns will be staffing the border crossing points come March, there's about as much chance!


Yes. If the 'technical solution' had been started 10 years ago it might be very slightly workable by now.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think someone more like Maggie would have been able to read what was going on more accurately and been better able to influence the Eu and British policies and* negate the need for any referendum. * Our politicians aren't very respected at the moment and people see too much in fighting, we have no one who is strong and charismatic. I would have voted for Obama if he'd been leading one of our political parties.  It's often more about personality than policy, especially today imho.


Thatcher, quoting Attlee, described referendums as "a device of dictators and demagogues". She would never have held one on Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Thatcher, quoting Attlee, described referendums as "a device of dictators and demagogues". She would never have held one on Brexit.


Make people decide when you cannot actually tell them what the consequences of their choice would be but show the NHS bus and few really sinister posters?

People should be allowed referendum - like in Poland - people knew what it means to have democracy instead of one political party and independent trade unions instead of one communist party led puppet.

Still Polish referenda are safeguarded - to be binding at least two thirds have to vote and two thirds decide one way or the other to avoid the worst option: split vote like 52:48, which in range of statistical difference.
If referendum is not binding then it goes back to parliament, second referendum an option too.

It was so arrogant not to safeguard the referendum, so short sighted.

Gibraltar also had referendum and people understood the options : British or Spanish. The 99.8 voted British.

Remember before you let Brexit destroy Gibraltar.

Along with Gibraltar the Campo of Gibraltar - adjacent to us. Huge animal shelters totally depend on people who work here for donations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So let's be realistic.
October?
November?
December?
January or 29th March 2019?

My bet is now on October/November time.

The EU told us in Reuters they are ready for the UK to leave. I am glad they are ready. I do believe the UK is ready to.
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1M000W


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So let's be realistic.
> October?
> November?
> December?
> January or 29th March 2019?
> 
> My bet is now on October/November time.
> 
> The EU told us in Reuters they are ready for the UK to leave. I am glad they are ready. I do believe the UK is ready to.
> https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1M000W


If the UK leaves, it will be on 29th March next year, according to A50, (unless that Article is suspended at our request). We won't just cease to be members, even if May stands up from the table in Brussels and physically walks out the room.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> If the UK leaves, it will be on 29th March next year, according to A50, (unless that Article is suspended at our request). We won't just cease to be members, even if May stands up from the table in Brussels and physically walks out the room.


The EU said they are ready for the UK to crash out before the 29th March 2019 if no deal can be reached in October/November. Theresa May does have the option of walking out and yes this would cease negotiations.

The option of suspending article 50 is off the table and so is a second referendum. I am glad TM is sticking to her word on this.

The EU are threatening no deal in November.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU said they are ready for the UK to crash out before the 29th March 2019 if no deal can be reached in October/November. Theresa May does have the option of walking out and yes this would cease negotiations.
> 
> The option of suspending article 50 is off the table and so is a second referendum. I am glad TM is sticking to her word on this.


" Because they need us more than we need them".


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Make people decide when you cannot actually tell them what the consequences of their choice would be but show the NHS bus and few really sinister posters?
> 
> People should be allowed referendum - like in Poland - people knew what it means to have democracy instead of one political party and independent trade unions instead of one communist party led puppet.
> 
> Still Polish referenda are safeguarded - to be binding at least two thirds have to vote and two thirds decide one way or the other to avoid the worst option: split vote like 52:48, which in range of statistical difference.
> If referendum is not binding then it goes back to parliament, second referendum an option too.
> 
> It was so arrogant not to safeguard the referendum, so short sighted.
> 
> Gibraltar also had referendum and people understood the options : British or Spanish. The 99.8 voted British.
> 
> Remember before you let Brexit destroy Gibraltar.
> 
> Along with Gibraltar the Campo of Gibraltar - adjacent to us. Huge animal shelters totally depend on people who work here for donations.


I still wouldn't want one* but if there is one, I quite agree that a 2/3 majority should apply for a constitutional change.

* Except the "People's Vote" on the proposed deal. Although it is Parliament's job to make these decisions they abdicated responsibility to the electorate on this one, and it would smack of a lack of democratic legitimacy if they were to reverse the decision without asking the People first. Just as it would, to my mind, be undemocratic to crash out with a No Deal without asking the People if they want that to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> " Because they need us more than we need them".


They are the ones threatening no deal in November if the UK does not comprimise more. Excuse me a relationship is give and take, it's the EU's turn to comprimise.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU said they are ready for the UK to crash out before the 29th March 2019 if no deal can be reached in October/November. Theresa May does have the option of walking out and yes this would cease negotiations.
> 
> The option of suspending article 50 is off the table and so is a second referendum. I am glad TM is sticking to her word on this.
> 
> The EU are threatening no deal in November.


Yes, the EU are 'ready' for a no deal, and negotiations could cease in October or December (but I don't think they will). But we still wouldn't actually leave the EU until the end of March.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I still wouldn't want one* but if there is one, I quite agree that a 2/3 majority should apply for a constitutional change.
> 
> * Except the "People's Vote" on the proposed deal. Although it is Parliament's job to make these decisions they abdicated responsibility to the electorate on this one, and it would smack of a lack of democratic legitimacy if they were to reverse the decision without asking the People first. Just as it would, to my mind, be undemocratic to crash out with a No Deal without asking the People if they want that to happen.


We are not crashing out the EU is threatening no deal in November so they are forcing the UK to crash out. They said they are prepared for the UK to leave before the 29th March 2019.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yes, the EU are 'ready' for a no deal, and negotiations could cease in October or December (but I don't think they will). But we still wouldn't actually leave the EU until the end of March.


We will see.
My bets are on October/November time as the EU have made it clear that if there is no deal in November it is no deal and there is no time for a new referendum or peoples vote as it takes time to put these together.

PM has ruled out a peoples vote and a second referendum.

PM has ruled out extending article 50.

Regarding Parliament doing it's job, they will with the help of the whips.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> They are the ones threatening no deal in November if the UK does not comprimise more. Excuse me a relationship is give and take, it's the EU's turn to comprimise.


Why ?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> They are the ones threatening no deal in November if the UK does not comprimise more. Excuse me a relationship is give and take, it's the EU's turn to comprimise.


Why?

I honestly don't understand this, and I've heard it innumerable times.

We have chosen to leave. We have made demands that the EU should change its rules to allow us to keep all the benefits of membership. They've said no.

So we then say, Okay, you should change your rules to allow us to keep the benefits of free movement of goods, but not services. They've said no.

Why should it be their 'turn' to compromise? It isn't a give and take thing. We're the ones leaving. We chose to do so, knowing the consequences; that non-members don't get the benefits of membership. How does that give us the right to demand that they change their rules to benefit us?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Why ?


Because they aren't comprimising. A relationship is give and take for it to work. The UK is doing all the giving and the EU is doing all the taking not really a relationship I would like.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Why ?


Succinctly put!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Why?
> 
> I honestly don't understand this, and I've heard it innumerable times.
> 
> We have chosen to leave. We have made demands that the EU should change its rules to allow us to keep all the benefits of membership. They've said no.
> 
> So we then say, Okay, you should change your rules to allow us to keep the benefits of free movement of goods, but not services. They've said no.
> 
> Why should it be their 'turn' to compromise? It isn't a give and take thing. We're the ones leaving. We chose to do so, knowing the consequences; that non-members don't get the benefits of membership. How does that give us the right to demand that they change their rules to benefit us?


Well lets have done with it and leave instead of negotiating the un-negotiable.

It is impossible to make a deal business or otherwise if the other party is not willing to negotiate and make comprimises. You strike deals by making comprimises on both sides.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> We are not crashing out the EU is threatening no deal in November so they are forcing the UK to crash out. They said they are prepared for the UK to leave before the 29th March 2019.


Sorry, not being awkward, but they said they were ready (prepared) for us to leave with no deal. The date on which we would do so is still March 29th.

And both sides are threatening no deal, not just the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM now knows the Chequers Deal is dead. She now knows what to do. No more excuses. Walk away from the negotiating and declare no deal.

She has already ruled out the second referendum etc so lets get on with the UK's future outside of the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> TM now knows the Chequers Deal is dead. She now knows what to do. No more excuses. Walk away from the negotiating and declare no deal.
> 
> She has already ruled out the second referendum etc so lets get on with the UK's future.


And our sovereign Parliament doesn't want No Deal, because that would severely damage the UK's future, and all the whipping in the world won't make a majority of the Commons vote for it.

So, as I see it, the options of walking away from the table are, in descending order of likelihood

1) Parliament votes to let the People decide
2) (Our sovereign) Parliament is not allowed a vote on the future and we crash out
3) Parliament votes to have a General Election
4) Parliament votes to stay in the EU
5) Parliament votes to leave without a deal


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> 1) Parliament votes to let the People decide


Won't happen. If it did there would be civil unrest.


> 2) (Our sovereign) Parliament is not allowed a vote on the future and we crash out


Something called Henry the 8th Powers yes. Used alot in Parliament by serving PM's to bypass Parliament.


> 3) Parliament votes to have a General Election


Parliament cannot request one only the PM can. Parliament then agree or disagree. Parliament Act 2011. Parliament had this power stripped away by David Cameron in 2011 and voted for by Parliament themselves.


> 4) Parliament votes to stay in the EU


Mass civil unrest on the streets, protresting etc and MP's will never be trusted again.


> 5) Parliament votes to leave without a deal


More than likely yes.

You missed two. The EU declares no deal in November and UK doesn't get a say at all or the UK walks out of the negotiations (has always been an option).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Won't happen. If it did there would be civil unrest.


When people find out they've been lied to, they lose their jobs, NHS gone & cant get the food and medicines they need they'll be civil unrest



stockwellcat. said:


> Something called Henry the 8th Powers yes. Used alot in Parliament by serving PM's to bypass Parliament.


Its called a_ right wing power grab. _



stockwellcat. said:


> Mass civil unrest on the streets, protresting etc and MP's will never be trusted again.


How anyone can trust pro brexit MPs *now* is baffling. They are corrupt to the core. We are going to be totally screwed. You're going to find out what disaster capitalism is first hand - we all are.



stockwellcat. said:


> More than likely yes.
> 
> You missed two. The EU declares no deal in November and UK doesn't get a say at all or the UK walks out of the negotiations (has always been an option).


Only a few short weeks then until you will be forced to face reality then. And you cant say you werent warned 

*NHS Against Brexit*‏ @NHSvBrexit 3h3 hours ago
We told you so.

We warned you repeatedly.

This is #Brexit.

*Let American firms run hospitals, urges free trade group*

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-american-firms-run-hospitals-urges-free-trade-group-5rxxd9tb8










*Liam Fox is plotting to scrap EU food standards to win a Brexit trade deal with Trump*




*

Exclusive: Liam Fox is planning to scrap EU food standards using controversial "Henry the 8th" powers, multiple sources have told Business Insider.

The UK trade secretary wants to use government powers to rewrite UK food standards in order to strike a post-Brexit trade deal with the Trump administration.

Sources claim Fox wants to alter food standards through the Trade Bill. A government spokesperson denied the bill would be used to lower standards.

Labour accuses Fox of risking putting UK "farmers and food producers out of business."

The UK will need to lower its food standards to sign a comprehensive trade deal with the US
*
*http://uk.businessinsider.com/liam-...-food-standards-after-brexit-2018-9?r=US&IR=T

*


----------



## noushka05

*hompson‏Verified account @mattuthompson Mar 28

Macron*: _"Brexit is the choice of the British people... pushed by those who predicted easy solutions...

Those people are liars. They left the next day so they didn't have to manage it."_

Oof.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *hompson‏Verified account @mattuthompson Mar 28
> 
> Macron*: _"Brexit is the choice of the British people... pushed by those who predicted easy solutions...
> 
> Those people are liars. They left the next day so they didn't have to manage it."_
> 
> Oof.


That's British Politics for you. What's new? MP's lie to win elections and when they win provide those that voted them in with u-turn after u-turn to cover their lies up. U-turn Dave (David Cameron) was renouned for lying and u-turns.

Oof


----------



## noushka05

Good point Owen.

*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 6h6 hours ago

The Tories spend decades scaremongering about how Labour will lead to economic chaos. They're now preparing the biggest economic shock ever directly imposed by a government
in modern history. How can they lecture Labour about economic credibility ever again?

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> That's British Politics for you. What's new? MP's lie to win elections and when they win provide those that voted them in with u-turn after u-turn to cover their lies up. U-turn Dave (David Cameron) was renouned for lying and u-turns.
> 
> Oof


The politicians in the party I'm a member of don't lie, hence why I can trust their judgement  And as that well known saying goes 'never trust a tory' - and I never have. So please dont think I would ever trust a word of that dishonest fraud Cameron.

This is one of my all time favourite memes:Hilarious


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> TM now knows the Chequers Deal is dead. She now knows what to do. No more excuses. Walk away from the negotiating and declare no deal.
> 
> She has already ruled out the second referendum etc so lets get on with the UK's future outside of the EU.


We can only hope, but I fear there will be some very unsatisfactory white wash cobbled together last minute.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The politicians in the party I'm a member of don't lie, hence why I can trust their judgement  And as that well known saying goes 'never trust a tory' - and I never have. So please dont think I would ever trust a word of that dishonest fraud Cameron.
> 
> This is one of my all time favourite memes:Hilarious


But Jeremy Corbyn lies to. I am guessing it is labour because you dare quote Dennis Skinner. Blair lied to about Iraq.

Oh sorry wrong Party. It's the Green Party.


----------



## noushka05

*

Robert Peston. https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2172510166407050/*

Chequers, as the journalist Chris Deerin has pointed out, goes pop.

Which wry and funny as it is for those of us of a certain age will not be cheering up Theresa May.

Because the EU summit in Salzburg has been a personal catastrophe for her.

And worse than that, it was an avoidable catastrophe.

Because every EU expert bar those she employs in Whitehall has been saying very loudly for weeks that the trade and commercial proposal in her Chequers Brexit plan would never win favour among the EU 27.

So the question is why she waited to have that so publicly and humiliatingly stated by the EU's president Donald Tusk today, rather than quietly acquiring some wriggle room over recent days.

Also, she's rejected the EU's proposal to keep the Northern Ireland border with the Republic open - because in her estimation it would undermine the integrity of the UK - but won't tell them what her revised proposal may be, though she insists she has one.

Neither she nor EU leaders want a "hard" no-deal Brexit.

But probably the only way for her to avoid it is to eat the humblest of humble pies and jog back to the deal her departed Brexit secretary, David Davis, naively thought he had been mandated to negotiate - a more conventional free trade agreement based on Canada's deal with the UK.

And maybe she could get that through the House of Commons, if her Remainer MPs were terrified into believing that the alternative to backing it would be a general election - which they assume Corbyn would win (whatever opinion polls may indicate).

That said, Canada still wouldn't solve the Irish border conundrum.
Which means that the UK may not be in a position to sign a withdrawal agreement - and that in turn means a no-deal Brexit remains a live possibility, even a probability.

A couple of things follow from all of this:

1) May will emerge as unique in the annals of history if she survives as PM much longer in the face of setbacks on this scale;

2) if all conventional roads lead to a hard no-deal Brexit, the notion of Parliament exerting control and forcing another referendum on us would begin to look not wholly fanciful.

PS at 4.45pm

Brussels officials say that Barnier, Juncker and Tusk wanted to help May turn Salzburg into a stepping stone towards a deal, rather than an impasse.

"We were so ready to help" says one.

But she and her officials made two serious miscalculations, they say:

1) they say she was too aggressive, both in her article setting out what she wants in the German newspaper Die Welt, and at last night's dinner;

2) she was naive in thinking she could appeal above the heads of Barnier, Juncker and Tusk to EU leaders, when those leaders have more pressing issues on their plates and delegated the substance of talks to Barnier for a good reason.

Which means May has driven Brexit talks into a dark cul de sac, and goodness alone knows how she'll get her and the UK out of it


----------



## noushka05

George Monbiot in 2017 speaking about Liam Fox and co. Is this really what you voted for @stockwellcat. ? Because this is what brexit was always about.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> George Monbiot in 2017 speaking about Liam Fox and co. Is this really what you voted for @stockwellcat. ? Because this is what brexit was always about.


You didn't answer my reply to your Dennis Skinner post.

The millionaires are the ones trying to drive the Peoples Vote because their pension pots are tied up in the EU whilst they live in the Carribean or they live in the Carribean and Brexit does not affect them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *
> Robert Peston. https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2172510166407050/*
> 
> Chequers, as the journalist Chris Deerin has pointed out, goes pop.
> 
> Which wry and funny as it is for those of us of a certain age will not be cheering up Theresa May.
> 
> Because the EU summit in Salzburg has been a personal catastrophe for her.
> 
> And worse than that, it was an avoidable catastrophe.
> 
> Because every EU expert bar those she employs in Whitehall has been saying very loudly for weeks that the trade and commercial proposal in her Chequers Brexit plan would never win favour among the EU 27.
> 
> So the question is why she waited to have that so publicly and humiliatingly stated by the EU's president Donald Tusk today, rather than quietly acquiring some wriggle room over recent days.
> 
> Also, she's rejected the EU's proposal to keep the Northern Ireland border with the Republic open - because in her estimation it would undermine the integrity of the UK - but won't tell them what her revised proposal may be, though she insists she has one.
> 
> Neither she nor EU leaders want a "hard" no-deal Brexit.
> 
> But probably the only way for her to avoid it is to eat the humblest of humble pies and jog back to the deal her departed Brexit secretary, David Davis, naively thought he had been mandated to negotiate - a more conventional free trade agreement based on Canada's deal with the UK.
> 
> And maybe she could get that through the House of Commons, if her Remainer MPs were terrified into believing that the alternative to backing it would be a general election - which they assume Corbyn would win (whatever opinion polls may indicate).
> 
> That said, Canada still wouldn't solve the Irish border conundrum.
> Which means that the UK may not be in a position to sign a withdrawal agreement - and that in turn means a no-deal Brexit remains a live possibility, even a probability.
> 
> A couple of things follow from all of this:
> 
> 1) May will emerge as unique in the annals of history if she survives as PM much longer in the face of setbacks on this scale;
> 
> 2) if all conventional roads lead to a hard no-deal Brexit, the notion of Parliament exerting control and forcing another referendum on us would begin to look not wholly fanciful.
> 
> PS at 4.45pm
> 
> Brussels officials say that Barnier, Juncker and Tusk wanted to help May turn Salzburg into a stepping stone towards a deal, rather than an impasse.
> 
> "We were so ready to help" says one.
> 
> But she and her officials made two serious miscalculations, they say:
> 
> 1) they say she was too aggressive, both in her article setting out what she wants in the German newspaper Die Welt, and at last night's dinner;
> 
> 2) she was naive in thinking she could appeal above the heads of Barnier, Juncker and Tusk to EU leaders, when those leaders have more pressing issues on their plates and delegated the substance of talks to Barnier for a good reason.
> 
> Which means May has driven Brexit talks into a dark cul de sac, and goodness alone knows how she'll get her and the UK out of it


You're barking up the wrong tree if you thought I backed the Chequers deal because I didn't. But I don't support a peoples vote either but if there was one would vote exactly the same way I did last time like millions of other people will.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Why ?


I could think of 39 billion reasons.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I could think of 39 billion reasons.


That will make a might lengthy post....

Try to finish before March....


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> All 27 EU Leaders have rejected May's Chequers deal. D-Day ultimatium given May has to come up with something before the October summit to see if a November summit will be called. They don't like the economic proposal as it will undermine the single market.


Good. They aren't as stupid as she thought they were.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You didn't answer my reply to your Dennis Skinner post.
> 
> .


 You answered it yourself. Though most labour MPs (excluding Hoey & co) have more integrity in their little fingers than the vast majority of tory MPs. Their voting histories are proof of that!



stockwellcat. said:


> But Jeremy Corbyn lies to. I am guessing it is labour because you dare quote Dennis Skinner. Blair lied to about Iraq.
> 
> Oh sorry wrong Party. *It's the Green Party*.





stockwellcat. said:


> The millionaires are the ones trying to drive the Peoples Vote because their pension pots are tied up in the EU whilst they live in the Carribean or they live in the Carribean and Brexit does not affect them.


 Thank god we've got those working class heroes Mogg, Johnson, Farage, Fox, Gove et al to fight for our best interests. No way are they going to reap the rewards of the looming chaos. And they certainly wouldn't want to turn the UK into some seedy tax haven would they












stockwellcat. said:


> You're barking up the wrong tree if you thought I backed the Chequers deal because I didn't. But I don't support a peoples vote either but if there was one would vote exactly the same way I did last time like millions of other people will.


Its obvious you want us to crash out, though I don't think you've ever admitted so directly. You can own it when our country slides into the abyss. On top of the lies & the gerrymandering - Leave CHEATED, had they not the outcome would have been very different. If brexiteers were so sure they'd win again they would nothing to fear from a people vote


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They are the ones threatening no deal in November if the UK does not comprimise more. Excuse me a relationship is give and take, it's the EU's turn to comprimise.


No chance. Why give a fascist who's exiting what she wants that undermines the entire EU project? I'm glad they're sticking to their guns.

Should no deal be confirmed in November I wonder if May Brexit supporters will stop what you would call "Project Fear" ?

"Brexit means brexit and we'll make a success of it".

.....Just like they did with the Poll Tax and Universal credit.....


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> But Jeremy Corbyn lies to. I am guessing it is labour because you dare quote Dennis Skinner.


I would like to disagree but I cannot.

I was nearly taken in by Corbyn until he revealed his continued support for Brexit. This will be financially damaging so rather questions his "Jobs first Brexit" and the likes when firms are already leaving the UK.

As for Dennis Skinner, didn't he vote in favour of May's brexit along with Kate Hoey, Ronnie Campbell and the likes? Any respect for him from me died at an instant.

Having said that, if forced to choose between Corbyn or May I would choose Corbyn.

Quite frankly I want neither.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "Project Fear" ?


The only ones that are doing project fear still are those that started when Cameron called the referendum in 2016, some of the remainers (They do it on here as well). It was Cameron (the remainer cheif in command) and Osborne who was known to lead project fear and some remainers cannot help but continue it predicted doom and gloom and only negative aspects of Brexit.










> "*Brexit means brexit and we'll make a success of it*".


Glad you finally agree :Hilarious :Mooning


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ruth Davidson is backing the PM over Brexit. She was recorded telling her colleagues moaning about the PM's deal to shut up.

Well that worked because the EU has rejected the Chequers Deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Found it.

David Cameron (the remainer in chief) saying no second referendum and leave means leave and it would be the final decision.






Well done May for sticking to this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> when our country slides into the abyss.


Project Fear comments (2 remainers started Project Fear their names were Cameron and Osborne).


> If brexiteers were so sure they'd win again they would nothing to fear from a people vote


Cameron himself said no more referendums and this would be the final decision and the vote would be respected and acted upon. Here's the evidence and he was remainer in chief and head of the Project Fear campaign.




May is delivering what was voted for by delivering no deal and keeping to what was sold to everyone in Cameron's speech. No further referendums, the decision made being the final decision and the vote on 23rd June 2016 being respected and acted upon.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Project Fear comments (2 remainers started Project Fear their names were Cameron and Osborne).
> Cameron himself said no more referendums and this would be the final decision and the vote would be respected and acted upon. Here's the evidence and he was remainer in chief and head of the Project Fear campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May is delivering what was voted for by delivering no deal and keeping to what was sold to everyone in Cameron's speech. No further referendums, the decision made being the final decision and the vote on 23rd June 2016 being respected and acted upon.


I can assure you I know some who voted for, and still support Brexit who are very worried about the prospect of a no deal.

This was promised to them, "The easiest thing in the world" during the referendum campaign.

Secondly, I don't think May's performance yesterday showed an example of someone who would be happy with no deal.

She wants HER deal on HER terms and still expects to get it.

This made me smile this morning, courtesy of the Independent.

She tried to throw the EU off course, it came back to bite her!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Found it.
> 
> David Cameron (the remainer in chief) saying no second referendum and leave means leave and it would be the final decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well done May for sticking to this.


Did you see the headline below Cameron, "I'm confident we'll get an agreement with the EU that works for Britain"?!
:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It's often more about personality than policy, especially today imho.


Very true even if the current PM lacks personality and competence. That's why many want Boris Johnson in spite of many controversies.

I knew someone who wouldn't vote for Ed Milliband in 2015 due to, wait for it, not being good looking and spoke in a funny voice.....


----------



## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> 1) Parliament votes to let the People decide





stockwellcat. said:


> Won't happen. If it did there would be civil unrest.


This one in particular intrigues me. Our sovereign Parliament votes to let the People decide what to do, and the People rise up in protest?

Seems a very peculiar reaction in a democratic country where the _demos_ (from the original Greek) have been asked their current opinion.

Surely the only ones who would be upset are those who fear that the People might have changed their minds and are desperately trying to deny them the chance to say so. Doesn't sound very democratic to me.

And if they haven't changed their minds, so be it. They can choose the deal put before them, if there is one, or the No Deal cliff-dive.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> That's British Politics for you. What's new? MP's lie to win elections and when they win provide those that voted them in with u-turn after u-turn to cover their lies up. U-turn Dave (David Cameron) was renouned for lying and u-turns.
> 
> Oof


Not quite true to be fair. Thatcher kept her promise re the right to buy scheme and implementing the Poll Tax, as did Tony Blair with the minimum wage and the Hunting with dogs act that banned fox hunting. Some examples.

You could argue May has kept her word on delivering Brexit. Yes, you'd be right but not with the ,"Deep and special partnership with the EU in a country that works for everyone".


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I can assure you I know some who voted for, and still support Brexit who are very worried about the prospect of a no deal.
> 
> This was promised to them, "The easiest thing in the world" during the referendum campaign.
> 
> Secondly, I don't think May's performance yesterday showed an example of someone who would be happy with no deal.
> 
> She wants HER deal on HER terms and still expects to get it.
> 
> This made me smile this morning, courtesy of the Independent.
> 
> She tried to throw the EU off course, it came back to bite her!
> 
> View attachment 369186


The EU have been using negotiating tactics in their negotiations?

Damn! If only we'd thought of that!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> This one in particular intrigues me. Our sovereign Parliament votes to let the People decide what to do, and the People rise up in protest?
> 
> Seems a very peculiar reaction in a democratic country where the _demos_ (from the original Greek) have been asked their current opinion.
> 
> Surely the only ones who would be upset are those who fear that the People might have changed their minds and are desperately trying to deny them the chance to say so. Doesn't sound very democratic to me.
> 
> And if they haven't changed their minds, so be it. They can choose the deal put before them, if there is one, or the No Deal cliff-dive.


Cameron did not sell the referendum as being a neverendum. 




So he says no more referendums and the decision in 2016 is final does not equal another referendum. Some remainers must have had ear plugs in when Cameron said this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU's attempt to belittle Theresa May yesterday is back firing as it is fuelling support for a no deal Brexit here in the UK. Remain MP's are coming forward and saying this, this morning in Parliament.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Cameron did not sell the referendum as being a neverendum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So he says no more referendums and the decision in 2016 is final does not equal another referendum. Some remainers must have had ear plugs in when Cameron said this.


It was argued Cameron had no mandate to suggest what he did, I wonder if he still would have said it if he knew he was going to lose? Yes we know Parliament voted to set the result in stone, eagarly assisted by Corbyn.

As it was, Cameron vowed he would not serve a full team as PM when he won the 2015 General Election. It was a perfect excuse to get out when he did.

As a Remainer I certainly did not have ear plugs in when Cameron said that. I took it very seriously even if some idiots did spoil their ballot papers as Cameron was going to win anyway.

Nevertheless, as I said before, I'm not comfortable with a narrow victory like 52-48%, even if remain had won.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="stockwellcat., post: 1065285637, member: 146119
So he says no more referendums and the decision in 2016 is final does not equal another referendum. Some remainers must have had ear plugs in when Cameron said this.[/QUOTE]

I voted remain but I don't really think a another referendum would help we are enough of a mess as it is, we have voted leave wrongly in my view but whats done is done, we'll just have to live with THE NO DEAL as it looks like we going to get.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It was argued Cameron had no mandate to suggest what he did, I wonder if he still would have said it if he knew he was going to lose?


He did have a mandate. He held an election in which in his mandate for the election was to hold a referendum. He won the election on this mandate so had to deliver.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU's attempt to belittle Theresa May yesterday is back firing as it is fuelling support for a no deal Brexit here in the UK. Remain MP's are coming forward and saying this, this morning in Parliament.


I guess it depends on where you read.

Personally speaking I would have been furious had the EU succumbed to her plans, so much I might have questioned my own support for the EU.

Their "belittling" of May has only strengthened my support for them.

I'm glad they put her in her place.

Someone had to do it.


----------



## KittenKong

God, give me strength.

It's already been rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike. And now the EU.

Just making herself and the UK look more stupid to the outside world.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-plan-still-workable-despite-eu-rejection


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Cameron did not sell the referendum as being a neverendum.
> 
> So he says no more referendums and the decision in 2016 is final does not equal another referendum. Some remainers must have had ear plugs in when Cameron said this.


Cameron is not Prime Minister any more, not an MP any more, and nothing that he said or did has any bearing whatsoever on our current, sovereign Parliament.

The neverendum argument is itself a broken record with no democratic merit in a situation where so much has changed and when Parliament is unable to reach a decision.

I'm afraid these are simply straw-clutching arguments to prevent the possibility of hearing the current will of the People. I think you know that, too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> God, give me strength.
> 
> It's already been rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike. And now the EU.
> 
> Just making herself and the UK look more stupid to the outside world.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-plan-still-workable-despite-eu-rejection
> 
> View attachment 369197


Well what she needs to do now is have the Conservative conference in 10 days time and get them to vote on it at the conference and if there is support for it from her MP's to present the Chequers Deal to Parliament. Bare in mind any rejection of the Chequers Deal will result in a No Deal as this is the only other offer on the table.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Cameron is not Prime Minister any more, not an MP any more, and nothing that he said or did has any bearing whatsoever on our current, sovereign Parliament.
> 
> The neverendum argument is itself a broken record with no democratic merit in a situation where so much has changed and when Parliament is unable to reach a decision.
> 
> I'm afraid these are simply straw-clutching arguments to prevent the possibility of hearing the current will of the People. I think you know that, too.


Some Remainers are clutching at straws at the moment.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU's attempt to belittle Theresa May yesterday is back firing as it is fuelling support for a no deal Brexit here in the UK. Remain MP's are coming forward and saying this, this morning in Parliament.


The EU said absolutely nothing yesterday that it hasn't been saying for pretty much the whole of the negotiation period. May wants full access to the single market for goods but not for services and doesn't want free movement. Does "No cherry picking" sound familiar?

If Remain MPs are going to react by cutting off the country's nose to spite its face with a No Deal, then they are idiots.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well what she needs to do now is have the Conservative conference in 10 days time and get them to vote on it at the conference and if there is support for it from her MP's to present the Chequers Deal to Parliament. *Bare in mind any rejection of the Chequers Deal will result in a No Deal as this is the only other offer on the table*.


For the umpteenth time, bear in mind that things change.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> For the umpteenth time, bear in mind that things change.


For the umpteenth time a second referendum has been ruled out. Polls change daily if you are going off them. Some polls are showing larger support for no deal other polls aren't. Only a small minority of people take part in these polls and I have never been able to vote on these polls. Alot of the polls are data polls from snippets of information off the internet. Data polls don't reflect peoples opinion as no one votes in them.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Bare in mind any rejection of the Chequers Deal will result in a No Deal as this is the only other offer on the table.


Which I would prefer over May's deal as it stands.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well what she needs to do now is have the Conservative conference in 10 days time and get them to vote on it at the conference and if there is support for it from her MP's to present the Chequers Deal to Parliament.


Why waste time on a proposal or plan that has already been rejected by most Brexiters, Remainers and the EU? Have they nothing else to debate?

Her yes men, sorry loyalists may be spreading "Project Fear" to gain support for May's plan from the public. Some will of course fall for it though of course.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Sounds like the media is hyping us all up to hate the EU or cast TM as a useless politician. I'd hate to be in her position right now


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Which I would prefer over May's deal.


It really gets to me, they have all this time to work out a deal and they leave it until the 11th hour all they come up with is the Chequers agreement and the 27 EU members have rejected and to be honest I don;t blame them.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Sounds like the media is hyping us all up to hate the EU or cast TM as a useless politician. I'd hate to be in her position right now


Much of the media has been hyping people to hate the EU over the past 40 years. Why do you think Leave won the referendum? That's nothing new.

May appears to thrive on negative publicity.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Much of the media has been hyping people to hate the EU over the past 40 years. Why do you think Leave won the referendum. That's nothing new.
> 
> May appears to thrive on negative publicity.


May is good at appearing as if everything is fine when the building is burning around her. I agree with Happy Paws in that her and her team are doing everytyhing las t minute


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> God, give me strength.
> 
> It's already been rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike. And now the EU.
> 
> Just making herself and the UK look more stupid to the outside world.


The phrase 'Which part of 'NO' don't you understand?' springs to mind...



stockwellcat. said:


> Well what she needs to do now is have the Conservative conference in 10 days time and get them to vote on it at the conference and if there is support for it from her MP's to present the Chequers Deal to Parliament. Bare in mind any rejection of the Chequers Deal will result in a No Deal as this is the only other offer on the table.


_Why? _It's been rejected by pretty much everyone that matters, and not on mere technicalities. The horse is dead, and the more she carries on flogging it, the more ridiculous she (and we) look.



Arnie83 said:


> The EU said absolutely nothing yesterday that it hasn't been saying for pretty much the whole of the negotiation period. May wants full access to the single market for goods but not for services and doesn't want free movement. Does "No cherry picking" sound familiar?
> 
> If Remain MPs are going to react by cutting off the country's nose to spite its face with a No Deal, then they are idiots.


Exactly. We knew the ground rules before Article 50 was triggered. That our glorious leaders think those rules shouldn't apply to us isn't the EUs fault.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> God, give me strength.
> 
> It's already been rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike. And now the EU.
> 
> Just making herself and the UK look more stupid to the outside world.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-plan-still-workable-despite-eu-rejection
> 
> View attachment 369197


God give me strength part 2...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ticism-of-chequers-plan-is-negotiating-tactic


----------



## KittenKong

Just a thought on the matter.
Parliament are set to vote on TM's Chequers plan. She'll probably win it 

BUT

It's dead in the water which means No Deal.

Would Parliament vote for No Deal I wonder? Hmmm.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Just a thought on the matter.
> Parliament are set to vote on TM's Chequers plan. She'll probably win it
> 
> BUT
> 
> It's dead in the water which means No Deal.
> 
> Would Parliament vote for No Deal I wonder? Hmmm.....


Parliament as I said the other day are in a catch 22 situation. If they vote May's Chequers Deal down it is default No deal. If they vote for May's Chequers Deal it would be No Deal as the EU have rejected it and also gave the UK till the October Summit to put an alternative on the table but May reiterated just yesterday that it is the Chequers Deal or No Deal. May has ruled out a second referendum and any extention to article 50.

Parliament cannot call a General Election as only the PM can do this and she doesn't have to until the next General Election, the Parliament Act 2011 removed this freedom in Parliament and was voted for by Parliament.

Yes the House of Commons can vote a vote of no confidence against the Government to create an environment for a General Election but May has alot of supporters behind her and any General Election would automatically weaken Labour and Lib Dems due to boundary changes. Remember when Brexitiers started making noise about ousting her all her Tory Party supporters straight away made it clear they where backing her and she would see off any attempt to oust her. This is probably the only way Parliament can trigger a General Election but it would mean that almost all of the 650 MP's would have to vote no confidence in the Government not Theresa May.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If she think the 27 are going to help us the way we have treated some of them over the years she must crazy, we don't have many friends left.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> For the umpteenth time a second referendum has been ruled out. Polls change daily if you are going off them. Some polls are showing larger support for no deal other polls aren't. Only a small minority of people take part in these polls and I have never been able to vote on these polls. Alot of the polls are data polls from snippets of information off the internet. Data polls don't reflect peoples opinion as no one votes in them.


No I'm not referring to polls.

I'm referring the political situation, and how much we can base anything on what Theresa May says ...

*June 30 2016*
_"There should be no general election until 2020."_

*September 4 2016*
_"I'm not going to be calling a snap election. I've been very clear that I think we need that period of time, that stability, to be able to deal with the issues that the country is facing and have that election in 2020."_

*October 1 2016*
_"Theresa May has ruled out the possibility of a general election before 2020 due to the risk of "instability" posed by a snap vote."_

*March 7 2017*
_"A No 10 source said: "It's not going to happen. It's not something she plans to do or wishes to do.""_

*March 20 2017*
_"A Downing Street spokesperson told a briefing of journalists in Westminster on Monday morning: "There is no change in our position on an early general election. There is not going to be a general election." _"

Now she's saying it's Chequers or No Deal. Now she's saying there will be no People's Vote. And now she's saying (just like she did before) that there's not going to be a General Election.

It may be what you and many others want to hear, but that doesn't make it any more trustworthy, let alone cast in stone.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> If she think the 27 are going to help us the way we have treated some of them over the years she must crazy, we don't have many friends left.


I think some (most?) will help us as it is in their own national interest, but it's more in their interests to protect the integrity of the single market, so even without ill feeling there is a limit to what they might be prepared to do. Though if they had to deal with a Boris or Mogg, I suspect any goodwill would quickly evaporate.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament as I said the other day are in a catch 22 situation. If they vote May's Chequers Deal down it is default No deal. If they vote for May's Chequers Deal it would be No Deal as the EU have rejected it and also gave the UK till the October Summit to put an alternative on the table but May reiterated just yesterday that it is the Chequers Deal or No Deal. May has ruled out a second referendum and any extention to article 50.
> 
> Parliament cannot call a General Election as only the PM can do this and she doesn't have to until the next General Election, the Parliament Act 2011 removed this freedom in Parliament and was voted for by Parliament.
> 
> Yes the House of Commons can vote a vote of no confidence against the Government to create an environment for a General Election but May has alot of supporters behind her and any General Election would automatically weaken Labour and Lib Dems due to boundary changes. Remember when Brexitiers started making noise about ousting her all her Tory Party supporters straight away made it clear they where backing her and she would see off any attempt to oust her. This is probably the only way Parliament can trigger a General Election but it would mean that almost all of the 650 MP's would have to vote no confidence in the Government not Theresa May.


But wasn't there something mentioned that Parliament could effectively force May to negotiate another deal if it's going to be no deal?



Happy Paws said:


> If she think the 27 are going to help us the way we have treated some of them over the years she must crazy, we don't have many friends left.


And why should they assist a former member who's going to leave regardless anyway?


----------



## KittenKong

This came up in my FB feed.
Resignation? I certainly hope so!


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM due to make a statement shortly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This came up in my FB feed.
> Resignation? I certainly hope so!
> 
> View attachment 369221


If it is her resignation you do know there will be a leadership vote within the Conservatives and a Brexitier MP could win. Also it does not mean another GE.


----------



## KittenKong

Why?

Can't she make up her mind whether to resign or not?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 369222
> 
> Why?
> 
> Can't she make up her mind whether to resign or not?


Gove has just said her resignation would be admirable.

Have you thought she might be declaring a no deal.


----------



## stuaz

Resignation incoming...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> If it is her resignation you do know there will be a leadership vote within the Conservatives and a Brexitier MP could win. Also it does not mean another GE.


Theresa May is also a brexiter. I couldn't care less who replaces her, they're all as bad as each other.

If a brexiter replaces her, it would at least be someone who didn't change stance on becoming PM as May did.

Besides, I think it's more likely she'll call a general election rather than resign unfortunately...


----------



## stockwellcat.

The feed on Sky News is saying she isn't resigning.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Have you thought she might be declaring a no deal.


----------



## Arnie83

Rees-Mogg seems confident that there is no way a No Deal can be avoided if Chequers is voted down in Parliament, but there are many commentators who think he is wrong, and not one that I have found who agree with him (excepting the Mogglodytes who actually want a No Deal, and they are a small minority).

This, from the "New Statesman" sets out how Parliament would prevent the worst case (economically speaking) No Deal scenario:

Under the concessions granted by the government over the EU Withdrawal Bill, the Prime Minister must make a statement to MPs by 21 January 2019 if no Brexit deal has been reached. Within a fortnight, the House of Commons would be given the opportunity to vote on the government's plans, albeit in a motion expressed "in neutral terms".

Though this motion would not be legally binding, and would not force ministers to comply with MPs' wishes, it would have immense symbolic power. And in the extreme circumstances of no-deal, the government would be challenged to permit a non-neutral motion, while Labour could use its parliamentary time to table its own version.

In practice, then, politics would likely trump procedure. Faced with the prospect of no deal, the government would be pressured to grant one or more of the following: a soft Brexit (European Economic Area membership), a second referendum, or an early general election. As 2017 demonstrated, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 is no obstacle to the latter: parliament can be dissolved through a two-thirds majority, or through a vote of no confidence in the government (resulting in a new election unless an alternative administration wins the support of the Commons within 14 days).

In such circumstances, the EU has already signalled that it would be prepared to grant an extension to the Article 50 period (though this requires the unanimous approval of the 27 other EU member states).

After the events of recent times - a surprise Conservative majority in 2015, the election of Donald Trump as US president, Brexit itself - it would be reckless for anyone to state that no deal is "impossible". But it is less likely than much coverage suggests.​


----------



## stockwellcat.

The statement is delayed due to a lack of electricity power "technical issue" in the room she is doing the statement inside downing street .


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The feed on Sky News is saying she isn't resigning.


Of course she won't resign, just as Thatcher wouldn't when the Poll Tax backfired badly on her.

But there's hope they could be a leadership challenge as there was in 1990.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The podium is ready with 2 union jack flags (one either side) and they are ready for the statement to be made.


----------



## Arnie83

I doubt she's going to resign. And she can't declare a no deal; she isn't a dictator. I would think she's going to insist that she is going to go ahead with Chequers, despite Tusk's comments yesterday, because it's the "best deal for Britain", but warn the EU that she is deadly serious that unless they play ball she will metaphorically shoot herself by allowing No Deal to come to pass.


----------



## stockwellcat.

She is doing the speech now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM is not resigning.

PM has declared the UK is at a total impasse with the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

She is throwing the ball back into the EU's court. Negotiations have stalled as the PM has said that until the EU discuss what the issues are, we are heading to a no deal. The UK is to now prepare the UK for a no deal.

No further referendums. The referendum of 2016 will not be over turned.

There is now a total impasse.

She wants an explaination why her deal was rejected as no explaination was given yesterday. She also wants a detailed counter proposal to her deal from the EU.

EU citizens rights of those living in the UK will be protected if no deal happens.

She is not prepared for the EU to split the UK up with a border in the Irish sea.

She wants an alternative plan from the EU and it is not acceptable that the EU rejected her deal without a detailed explaination why and not offering an alternative detailed proposal.


----------



## Arnie83

I can answer some of her questions:

The EU rejected Chequers because we're cherry picking membership of the single market with no customs union and no free movement of people and no ECJ jurisdiction.

The EU alternatives they have offered are EEA membership or a Canada style free trade agreement.


The problem has come because her red lines are, and always have been, incompatible. Choosing to leave, then making incompatible demands, and then blaming the EU for it all still seems odd to me.

Incidentally, following her speech, Justine Greening is calling for a second referendum. Mark Garnier calling for temporary EEA membership while we sort things out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Incidentally, following her speech, Justine Greening is calling for a second referendum. Mark Garnier calling for temporary EEA membership while we sort things out.


The remain side seem split as well to what they want.

TM has made it clear though that she is not having the referendum results of 2016 overturned and no further referendums.


----------



## rona

Well said Theresa


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Although I am against the Chequers Deal. Theresa May conducted herself well after being insulted by certain EU leaders yesterday and gave a great speech today. Well done Theresa.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> She is throwing the ball back into the EU's court. Negotiations have stalled as the PM has said that until the EU discuss what the issues are, we are heading to a no deal.
> 
> ...
> 
> She wants an explaination why her deal was rejected as no explaination was given yesterday. She also wants a detailed counter proposal to her deal from the EU.
> 
> ...
> 
> She is not prepared for the EU to split the UK up with a border in the Irish sea.
> 
> She wants an alternative plan from the EU and it is not acceptable that the EU rejected her deal without a detailed explaination why and not offering an alternative detailed proposal.


But we KNOW what the issues are - as in, we know which EU rules the deal currently offered (and all deals so far offered, given we haven't really changed our position in the last year and a half) is in conflict with. The EU have no reason to treat us any differently than any other non-EU nation, and it would be hypocritical and unfair to other nations to do so. Out having been in the EU makes no difference; we are not owed favouritism because of it.

So if she's saying needs an explanation of these basic principles, then I'm not sure how she's fit for the job of running our country.

The EU have offered us alternative options that meet Eu requirements. It is not their fault we don't like them.

As to Ireland, either we stay in the EEA (which is different from the EU), or accept free movement of people via another method, or there will be some form of Irish border. Again, I'm not sure why our leadership finds this so hard to process, they knew this would be the case when Article 50 was triggered.

And, incidentally, how was TM insulted yesterday? Genuine question - didn't see any news about it. Unless you mean the EU rejecting her deal out of hand was insulting, in which case I can't see how rejecting a deal we already know contains unacceptable proposals is rude; more something that should be expected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> But we KNOW what the issues are - as in, we know which EU rules the deal currently offered (and all deals so far offered, given we haven't really changed our position in the last year and a half) is in conflict with. The EU have no reason to treat us any differently than any other non-EU nation, and it would be hypocritical and unfair to other nations to do so. Out having been in the EU makes no difference; we are not owed favouritism because of it.
> 
> So if she's saying needs an explanation of these basic principles, then I'm not sure how she's fit for the job of running our country.
> 
> The EU have offered us alternative options that meet Eu requirements. It is not their fault we don't like them.
> 
> As to Ireland, either we stay in the EEA (which is different from the EU), or accept free movement of people via another method, or there will be some form of Irish border. Again, I'm not sure why our leadership finds this so hard to process, they knew this would be the case when Article 50 was triggered.
> 
> And, incidentally, how was TM insulted yesterday? Genuine question - didn't see any news about it. Unless you mean the EU rejecting her deal out of hand was insulting, in which case I can't see how rejecting a deal we already know contains unacceptable proposals is rude; more something that should be expected.


Well most of the newspapers reported on the tweets that followed TM's departure. They should have had more sense than throwing insults amd thinking they where being funny. She was infuriated with them all day and she still is apparently on various issues.


----------



## Elles

We have put a lot into the Eu over past years, there is nothing stopping the people of Europe and the Eu treating the U.K. as a special case. Not as special as its own membership, but not as a complete outsider either. The Eu and Europe are people, not an immovable object.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The remain side seem split as well to what they want.
> 
> TM has made it clear though that she is not having the referendum results of 2016 overturned and no further referendums.


Garnier was also open to the idea of a new referendum.

She has indeed made it clear, just as she did that there would be no GE last year. We will see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have nothing else to say other than, it will be a no deal and we will be free to make our own trade deals and do what we want in the world.

The UK can make a success of this regardless of what some remainers think

It's time to leave the EU.

Life will carry on after Brexit in the UK.

This total impasse with the EU would have happened anyway.

You can't expect one side of a relationship to give, give, give (UK) and the other side keep taking or keep wanting (EU). A relationship like this would be bound to break up.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> And, incidentally, how was TM insulted yesterday? Genuine question - didn't see any news about it. Unless you mean the EU rejecting her deal out of hand was insulting, in which case I can't see how rejecting a deal we already know contains unacceptable proposals is rude; more something that should be expected.


I suspect it was this posted on Instagram by Tusk:










I haven't seen anything else that could be described as an insult, though maybe @stockwellcat. knows different.

Doesn't seem all that insulting to me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect it was this posted on Instagram by Tusk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anything else that could be described as an insult, though maybe @stockwellcat. knows different.
> 
> Doesn't seem all that insulting to me.


*Brussels can't stop Brexit with insults*
www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/20/brussels-cant-stop-brexit-insults/amp/

*IDS lashes out at Tusk over 'INSULTING' treatment of May during crucial Brexit meeting*
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1020741/Brexit-news-Iain-Duncan-Smith-Donald-Tusk-Salzburg-UK-EU-summit-instagram-Theresa-May/amp

*Iain Duncan Smith: The EU has behaved APPALLINGLY*
https://www.express.co.uk/videos/556233/Iain-Duncan-Smith-The-EU-has-behaved-APPALLINGLY


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I have nothing else to say other than, it will be a no deal and we will be free to make our own trade deals and *do what we want in the world*.


So long as we follow the WTO rules, and bow to the requirements of the bigger economies when we make trade deals, like the USA, China, the EU etc.



stockwellcat. said:


> The UK can make a success of this regardless of what some remainers think


I haven't seen anyone suggesting we won't make a success of it; it just won't be as good as we've got now.



stockwellcat. said:


> It's time to leave the EU.


No comment, since it is your opinion.



stockwellcat. said:


> Life will carry on after Brexit in the UK.


Yes, indubitably.



stockwellcat. said:


> This total impasse with the EU would have happened anyway.
> 
> You can't expect one side of a relationship to give, give, give (UK) and the other side keep taking or keep wanting (EU). A relationship like this would be bound to break up.


Do you mean had we remained in the EU? If so I can't see any reason for your conclusion. We have had very advantageous membership terms.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brussels can't stop Brexit with insults*
> www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/20/brussels-cant-stop-brexit-insults/amp/
> 
> *IDS lashes out at Tusk over 'INSULTING' treatment of May during crucial Brexit meeting*
> www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1020741/Brexit-news-Iain-Duncan-Smith-Donald-Tusk-Salzburg-UK-EU-summit-instagram-Theresa-May/amp
> 
> *Iain Duncan Smith: The EU has behaved APPALLINGLY*
> https://www.express.co.uk/videos/556233/Iain-Duncan-Smith-The-EU-has-behaved-APPALLINGLY


Sorry, are there any other perceived insults in there apart from the Instagram post? (I know Macron called the Leave leaders liars, but that really is difficult to argue with!)


----------



## stockwellcat.

And I agree with Mr Dodds.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brussels can't stop Brexit with insults*
> www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/20/brussels-cant-stop-brexit-insults/amp/
> 
> *IDS lashes out at Tusk over 'INSULTING' treatment of May during crucial Brexit meeting*
> www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1020741/Brexit-news-Iain-Duncan-Smith-Donald-Tusk-Salzburg-UK-EU-summit-instagram-Theresa-May/amp
> 
> *Iain Duncan Smith: The EU has behaved APPALLINGLY*
> https://www.express.co.uk/videos/556233/Iain-Duncan-Smith-The-EU-has-behaved-APPALLINGLY


Fine comments from a psychopath failed ex Tory who treats his own citizens appallingly with his cruel benefits plan.

So Theresa May has been treated appallingly due to not getting her way according to this disgusting turd?

Perhaps he needs reminding Theresa May is not the EU. The UK chose to leave. The UK no longer have any say in EU matters and have the cheek to make demands strictly on her terms as an ex member!

I'm proud of Brussels, well done them.
EU- 27, TM-0.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I have nothing else to say other than, it will be a no deal and we will be free to make our own trade deals and do what we want in the world.
> 
> The UK can make a success of this regardless of what some remainers think
> 
> It's time to leave the EU.
> 
> Life will carry on after Brexit in the UK.
> 
> This total impasse with the EU would have happened anyway.
> 
> You can't expect one side of a relationship to give, give, give (UK) and the other side keep taking or keep wanting (EU). A relationship like this would be bound to break up.


Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but forgive me for my lack of enthusiasm for something I profoundly disagree with!

Backing something enthusiastically doesn't make it a success, however enthusiastic people are. Look at the Poll Tax, even the recent World Cup. Cheering your team at a home football match doesn't guarantee victory!

Very strong opposition to Brexit won't stop on Brexit day.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a realist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but forgive me for my lack of enthusiasm for something I profoundly disagree with!
> 
> Backing something enthusiastically doesn't make it a success, however enthusiastic people are. Look at the Poll Tax, even the recent World Cup. Cheering your team at a home football match doesn't guarantee victory!
> 
> Very strong opposition to Brexit won't stop on Brexit day.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a realist.


:Yawn


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So long as we follow the WTO rules, and bow to the requirements of the bigger economies when we make trade deals, like the USA, China, the EU etc.
> 
> I haven't seen anyone suggesting we won't make a success of it; it just won't be as good as we've got now.
> 
> No comment, since it is your opinion.
> 
> Yes, indubitably.
> 
> Do you mean had we remained in the EU? If so I can't see any reason for your conclusion. We have had very advantageous membership terms.


Like this is your opinion which if people don't agree with you on you keep going on.

Yep we'll have to get used to the WTO rules. So what. We are now preparing for a no deal.

I did not mention staying in the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Like this is your opinion which if people don't agree with you on you keep going on.
> 
> Yep we'll have to get used to the WTO rules. So what. We are now preparing for a no deal.
> 
> I did not mention staying in the EU.


What did I say that was just opinion? I'm always keen to provide facts when I can.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> :Yawn


Just want to say, with respect, I'm a little confused by some of your recent posts.

You say you don't agree with Theresa May's Chequers plan yet have a go at the EU for not succumbing to her demands.

I know you detest the EU with venom, but give them some credit.

They've rejected her plan as most Remainers and Brexiters alike have. They've done you a favour if you think about it.

As for the DUPs comments on the Irish border, taking control of borders applies to the EU as much as the UK.

As the UK will soon no longer be an EU member the EU must erect border controls against a non member state, which will be the UK in this instance.

Plausible solutions to that have been addressed by the EU that Theresa May personally rejected. She's the one to blame, not the EU.

They shouldn't be one rule for the UK and another for the EU.

The Tories tried to blame Labour councils for generally higher Poll Tax rates compared to some Tory areas such as Wandsworth.

It backfired on them! Brexit will backfire on them too if, (and I said if), it turns out to be a disaster people will remember those images of Theresa May triggering Article 50.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant and very true, even if reported by News Thump.

Warning- contains bad language I've censored for the screenshot.
http://newsthump.com/2018/09/21/lyi...er&utm_campaign=wordpress&utm_content=newpost


----------



## cheekyscrip

I truly remember SWC saying before referendum that we will have accessed to Single Market andBrexit does not mean No Deal, that this just fear mongering and it will not get to that.... please rewind to spring 2016 and start deleting or tell me why do you support No Deal now?

Tell me also how we can live with choked frontier?
I remember posts stating UK will be better off and could support Gibraltar?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I truly remember SWC saying before referendum that we will have accessed to Single Market andBrexit does not mean No Deal, that this just fear mongering and it will not get to that.... please rewind to spring 2016 and start deleting or tell me why do you support No Deal now?
> 
> Tell me also how we can live with choked frontier?
> I remember posts stating UK will be better off and could support Gibraltar?


We all learn something in 2 years @cheekyscrip. Where I stand now. Well Brexit means Brexit :Hilarious

Sorry couldn't help that one.

Well a deal is impossible isn't it when the EU resort to insulting other EU members. So my stance is lets get out. No deal. It was always going to be that way anyway.

Have I learnt something in 2 years? Yes. To keep to what I voted for and that was to leave.

Life will go on in the UK after Brexit. We will get used to WTO rules and carry on. At least the decisions on trade deals will be made here in the UK and not on foreign soil in Brussels and they will be the UK's trade deals.

Theresa May was right to do what she done today. Why should the EU threaten to divide the UK up by putting a border down the Irish sea? The UK is not looking to divide the EU up.

The EU leaders showed May no respect yesterday and took to twitter/intagram to insult our PM. How childish of them. The PM was right to demand respect from them today.

We now have an Impasse. EU's fault for disrespecting our PM.

Alright the Chequers Deal I am against and now the only option is a No Deal.

The EU leaders need to apologise as they acted the way they acted. I don't think this impasse will be broken.

Labour can say what they want by the way. Next week what they say will be u-turned. Corbyn has shown he is untrustworthy full stop.

Which ever way you look at things we are definitely now leaving the EU. Shame it took so long to get to this point but at least now we all know what is going to happen.

Well done Theresa May for demanding respect from the EU leaders and letting EU Citizens living here in the UK know they will be allowed to stay in the UK in the event of a no deal Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> We all learn something in 2 years @cheekyscrip. Where I stand now. Well Brexit means Brexit :Hilarious
> 
> Sorry couldn't help that one.
> 
> Well a deal is impossible isn't it when the EU resort to insulting other EU members. So my stance is lets get out. No deal. It was always going to be that way anyway.
> 
> Have I learnt something in 2 years? Yes. To keep to what I voted for and that was to leave.
> 
> Life will go on in the UK after Brexit. We will get used to WTO rules and carry on. At least the decisions on trade deals will be made here in the UK and not on foreign soil in Brussels and they will be the UK's trade deals.
> 
> Theresa May was right to do what she done today. Why should the EU threaten to divide the UK up by putting a border down the Irish sea? The UK is not looking to divide the EU up.
> 
> The EU leaders showed May no respect yesterday and took to twitter/intagram to insult our PM. How childish of them. The PM was right to demand respect from them today.
> 
> We now have an Impasse. EU's fault for disrespecting our PM.
> 
> Alright the Chequers Deal I am against and now the only option is a No Deal.
> 
> The EU leaders need to apologise as they acted the way they acted. I don't think this impasse will be broken.
> 
> Labour can say what they want by the way. Next week what they say will be u-turned. Corbyn has shown he is untrustworthy full stop.
> 
> Which ever way you look at things we are definitely now leaving the EU. Shame it took so long to get to this point but at least now we all know what is going to happen.
> 
> Well done Theresa May for demanding respect from the EU leaders and letting EU Citizens know they will be allowed to stay in the UK after a no deal.


Respect works both ways. May has repeatedly rejected EVERY single proposal put forward by the EU.

Seeing this vile woman behind Union flags ,(it'll change in the next 10 years), reminded me of those Party Political Broadcasts by the National Front in the '70s. How patriotic....

She said herself she's a bloody difficult woman.

I have absolutely no respect for her at all and this self inflicted mess. I save that for The European Union who, rightly, rejected her demands.

The very same demands rejected by the majority of Brexiters and Remainers alike. Have you forgotten rampant Brexiters David David and Boris Johnson resigned over them?

So why are you on her side all of a sudden? Do you now support her Chequers plan?


----------



## Arnie83

Donald Tusk calming the waters ...

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ident-donald-tusk-on-the-brexit-negotiations/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Respect works both ways. May has repeatedly rejected EVERY single proposal put forward by the EU.
> 
> Seeing this vile woman behind Union flags ,(it'll change in the next 10 years), reminded me of those Party Political Broadcasts by the National Front in the '70s. How patriotic....
> 
> She said herself she's a bloody difficult woman.
> 
> I have absolutely no respect for her at all and this self inflicted mess. I save that for The European Union who, rightly, rejected her demands.
> 
> The very same proposals rejected by the majority of Brexiters and Remainers alike. Have you forgotten rampant Brexiters David David and Boris Johnson resigned over them?
> 
> So why are you on her side all of a sudden? Do you now support her Chequers plan?


I am against her Chequers Deal no I don't support it at all and you know I don't you are trying to twist things like some remainers do.

You completely miss the point. You would find it acceptable that the EU leaders insult any UK PM? They disrespected the UK's PM and insulted her. It doesn't matter if it was Theresa May or someone else. The fact is they insulted the UK's PM and publically humiliated our PM. Disgusting behaviour.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Donald Tusk calming the waters ...
> 
> http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ident-donald-tusk-on-the-brexit-negotiations/


Well they took it on themselves to humiliate the UK's PM publically and insult our PM. Disgusting behaviour. They should have thought about what they where doing before they done it. It was not funny and totally uncalled for.

I thought the EU where used to tough negotiations?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they took it on themselves to humiliate the UK's PM publically and insult our PM. Disgusting behaviour. They should have thought about what they where doing before they done it. It was not funny and totally uncalled for.
> 
> I thought the EU where used to tough negotiations?


Someone had to do it. I'm proud they put this vile woman in her place. She's caused misery to thousands of people through her cruel policies such as Windrush, delaying her response to the Grenfell tower disaster. Yet she only shed a tear when she realised she lost her majority.

Didn't Johnson and Davis humiliate the vile woman by resigning their positions in protest at her Brexit plan also rejected, and rightly, by the EU?

And, didn't Donald Trump when he suggested Boris Johnson would make a good Prime Minister, clearly making his own thought known?

I thought it was hilarious actually.

I didn't hear you complain about these

Oh, by the way, she's NOT my PM.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they took it on themselves to humiliate the UK's PM publically and insult our PM. Disgusting behaviour. They should have thought about what they where doing before they done it. It was not funny and totally uncalled for.
> 
> I thought the EU where used to tough negotiations?


i don't blame them, after all the years we have worked together we have told them to get stuffed, how do you expect them to act, roll over and give us everything we want, I wouldn't if I was them.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they took it on themselves to humiliate the UK's PM publically and insult our PM. Disgusting behaviour. They should have thought about what they where doing before they done it. It was not funny and totally uncalled for.
> 
> I thought the EU where used to tough negotiations?


A picture with 'Cake, sorry no cherries' (probably not verbatim), repeating something that's already been said a million times, and that's an insult worth getting irate about which is both humiliating and 'disgusting behaviour'. Get a grip, for goodness sake!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think some of the remainers on here need to get a grip @Arnie83 as what you want isn't going to happen.

I have taken attacks from remainers on here for 2 years because I voted the way I did. I suggest it is you that gets a grip.

Sorry if you don't like my tone but I don't like some of the remainers tones. We are right mentality. No you are not. Get a grip yourselves.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am against her Chequers Deal no I don't support it at all and you know I don't you are trying to twist things like a reminder does.
> 
> You completely miss the point. You would find it acceptable that the EU leaders insult any UK PM? They disrespected the UK's PM and insulted her. It doesn't matter if it was Theresa May or someone else. The fact is they insulted the UK's PM and publically humiliated our PM. Disgusting behaviour.


Respectfully, it was a genuine question and not an attempt at twisting things because I'm a remainer.

As I said above Donald Trump publically humiliated Theresa May when he suggested Boris Johnson would have made a good Prime Minister. That was clearly a personal dig at Theresa May. I don't t recall you protesting against that!

Theresa May has, again, humiliated herself at attempting to restructure the four freedoms of the EU to suit herself. She had/has absolutely no right to do that as she unilaterally decided the UK will no longer be a member shortly. It's no longer her business what the EU and the 27 member states which also goes for the Irish border seeing she's personally rejected all reasonable EU proposals to avoid one.

Theresa May has shown nothing but disrespect to them, plus her attempts at destabilising the EU by talking to individual member states privately.

OK, you can argue the UK voted to leave the EU. That doesn't give the UK a right to persuade other countries from following suit.

You argue the EU publically humiliated Theresa May. Aren't you publically humiliating her by refusing to back her Chequers plan on a public forum?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Brexit isn't high on the agenda with Labours Conference. They are more interested in deselecting each other.

Some remainers are hoping Labour will back a peoples vote but in all honestly they want to deselect each other.

75% of Labour voters want Corbyn to stand down as Labours leader.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 369314
> 
> View attachment 369315
> 
> View attachment 369316
> 
> View attachment 369312
> 
> View attachment 369313


No, we cannot gry Brexit on our terms, as Merkel said "Exit means exit". Who would accept " Movement of goods no, but of financial services yes"!!!!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I think some of the remainers on here need to get a grip @Arnie83 as what you want isn't going to happen.


What I want to happen with regard to Brexit is already impossible. I wanted reassurance about the country's people. But the vote dashed my hopes that Britain was, as a majority, populated mostly by those with an outward, inclusive, non-tribal mindset, and confirmed instead that, for many, keeping the Other out, both physically and organisationally, was more important. That doesn't apply to all those who voted leave, of course, but the two major reasons given were taking back control (from those who weren't British) and reducing immigration.

So my hopes for Brexit were dashed, and cannot be resurrected even by a second vote, because any changing minds would be through self-interest trumping instinct.

Since the referendum, therefore, my preference for the type of Brexit has been solely on the basis of what is actually best economically for the majority of people in this country. I have not been led by bias towards remain, but by economic facts:

*If business costs rise; GDP growth will slow.* It's as simple as that. No huffing and puffing and making up figures, but unequivocal facts. All the negotiations are determining is how much worse off we are going to be than would otherwise be the case. 65% of our trade is with or through the EU, and we won't be able to dictate to the big economies what sort of trade deal we want with them, as we have found with the EU.

I will continue to look at the facts and the possibilities going forwards, none of which was irrevocably changed by May's little tantrum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU are treating the UK unfairly in the negotiations as they want the UK to keep making consessions but not make any themselves. That is not how negotiations work. They also said no to the Chequers Deal without explaination.

No Deal is still on the table.

May was right to stand her ground. No is not an acceptable answer withouta detailed explaination in any negotations at such a late stage a d pointinf out what is wrong and offering a counter proposal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Stephen Crab MP has said that the way the EU treated our PM and the UK the other day has made remain supporting MP's decide to back a No Deal Brexit if the question was presented to Parliament. MP's have been railling around the PM (Not Chequers Deal).


----------



## Arnie83

Talking of May's little tantrum.

The speech was intended for the converted, the party membership, those who are attending the party conference, and those who see the EU as the enemy, a threatening bunch of non-Us. The tribe threatening us from across the river.

Look at the Express headline; May gets unconvincingly hissy about Donald Tusk's 'no cherries' joke and that's "her finest hour"? The Express, like the Sun reprising its "Up Yours Delors" is, as ever, appealing to the populist nationalism that thinks Britain is better than everyone else; that by using her practiced stern expression and sounding tough 'she showed them!' We're Britain we're not going to be disrespected by a picture of a cake stand! Take that, Europe! It's a bit pathetic.

And that is exactly what the Brexit 'debate' in this country has become. It's tribal verbal warfare between Leave and Remain factions, where anything that suggests a less than glorious outcome for the UK is shouted down with no credible argument set against it. There is little evidence of logical consideration, just immediate dismissal, and accusations of talking the country down, as if pointing out economic facts - we're going to be worse off - is treasonable. As if our patriotic duty is to deny the bleedin' obvious, to rely on the Dunkirk spirit and have faith in British people, as if they were any different to anybody else.

It saddens me that we still think that way. And I suspect that no other country is any different. Just look at Trump's America, bullying its way to (temporarily) more wealth for its big businesses and its elite at the expense of those with whom it had made previous deals, now thrown out the window in the name of U!! S!! A!! , U!! S!! A!! ...

I'll stop the rant now! Sorry.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are treating the UK unfairly in the negotiations as they want the UK to keep making consessions but not make any themselves. That is not how negotiations work.


It is exactly how negotiations work.

Do you think it will go any differently when we try to get a trade deal with the US? Will we force the US farmers to raise their standards to ours? Or will they force us to accept GM crops and chlorinated chicken? Or will that end up as No Deal as well because they're asking us to concede more than they are? Whence our glorious future then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Talking of May's little tantrum.
> 
> The speech was intended for the converted, the party membership, those who are attending the party conference, and those who see the EU as the enemy, a threatening bunch of non-Us. The tribe threatening us from across the river.
> 
> Look at the Express headline; May gets unconvincingly hissy about Donald Tusk's 'no cherries' joke and that's "her finest hour"? The Express, like the Sun reprising its "Up Yours Delors" is, as ever, appealing to the populist nationalism that thinks Britain is better than everyone else; that by using her practiced stern expression and sounding tough 'she showed them!' We're Britain we're not going to be disrespected by a picture of a cake stand! Take that, Europe! It's a bit pathetic.
> 
> And that is exactly what the Brexit 'debate' in this country has become. It's tribal verbal warfare between Leave and Remain factions, where anything that suggests a less than glorious outcome for the UK is shouted down with no credible argument set against it. There is little evidence of logical consideration, just immediate dismissal, and accusations of talking the country down, as if pointing out economic facts - we're going to be worse off - is treasonable. As if our patriotic duty is to deny the bleedin' obvious, to rely on the Dunkirk spirit and have faith in British people, as if they were any different to anybody else.
> 
> It saddens me that we still think that way. And I suspect that no other country is any different. Just look at Trump's America, bullying its way to (temporarily) more wealth for its big businesses and its elite at the expense of those with whom it had made previous deals, now thrown out the window in the name of U!! S!! A!! , U!! S!! A!! ...
> 
> I'll stop the rant now! Sorry.


You see it as a hissy fit others don't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It is exactly how negotiations work.
> 
> Do you think it will go any differently when we try to get a trade deal with the US? Will we force the US farmers to raise their standards to ours? Or will they force us to accept GM crops and chlorinated chicken? Or will that end up as No Deal as well because they're asking us to concede more than they are? Whence our glorious future then?



Negotiations involve compromise.
Negotiations involve finding common ground.
Negotiations involve give and take both sides of it - consessions (in this instance the UK has been making comprise after comprise and not getting any comprises back).
Negotiations involve helping each other out to acheive a deal.
You don't say no in negotiations without giving a detailed explaination and without offering a counter proposal especially towards the end of the negotiations. The EU done this.

The negotiations with the EU have been one sided. The UK making all the consessions and the EU making none.

What the EU has done has angered alot of people, MP's included.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Negotiations involve compromise.
> Negotiations involve finding common ground.
> Negotiations involve give and take both sides of it - consessions (in this instance the UK has been making comprise after comprise and not getting any comprises back).
> Negotiations involve helping each other out to acheive a deal.
> You don't say no in negotiations without giving a detailed explaination and without offering a counter proposal especially towards the end of the negotiations. The EU done this.
> 
> The negotiations with the EU have been one sided. The UK making all the consessions and the EU making none.
> 
> What the EU has done has angered alot of people, MP's included.


But once again you want No Deal. What's the problem?

Members of her own party warned her about the Chequers plan two senior government members publically humiliated Theresa May by resigning over, would be rejected by the EU.

It was rubbished by most Brexiters and Remainers alike here in the UK.

But the strong and stable one ignored that and attempted to deliver it to them anyway. She probably knew what the answer would be and attempted to use it to her advantage- it worked with the tabloids.

That shows complete disregard and disrespect towards her own Tory colleagues, let alone anyone else.

I predicted this would happen, her coming on TV screeching they've been nasty by refused to accept her demands, those same demands most Brexiters and Remainers alike rejected don't forget.

If the government were serious about wanting a deal with the EU they'd be looking at the Norway option plus CU that avoids the Irish border problem. It works for Norway and Switzerland.

But Theresa May deliberately complicates matters by wanting something not unlike Norway in a fashion, but clashes with her immigration targets and hostile environment policy.

This is rightly against EU policy. Why should they change it to personally suit someone that's leaving anyway.

Of course the tabloids will love it. They hate anything not British unless it's American. What will they suggest next, war?

Theresa May is nothing more than an embarrassment to the country.

The UK has become a global laughing stock.


----------



## stockwellcat.

7,000 Civil Servants mobilised to prepare the UK for a No Deal Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour want an Election :Hilarious

Sky News presenter Adam Boulton shuts Owen Jones down over with these facts:










The Labour Party is behind Conservatives in the Polls and 75% of Labour Supporters want rid of Jeremy Corbyn as leader.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't say no in negotiations without giving a detailed explaination and without offering a counter proposal especially towards the end of the negotiations. The EU done this.


The EU have been saying no to Chequers since the day it was suggested. It cherry picks elements of the single market. They've been saying no to that for over 2 years. The counter proposal is a Canada style deal or EEA membership. They've been saying that for 2 years as well. If May does not understand that then perhaps she's been promoted beyond her capabilities, because it's pretty damned obvious to the rest of us.

We are complaining that the EU is refusing to remove its fundamental red line of no cherry picking elements of the single market, while insisting that we will NOT stay in the single market, NOT stay in the Customs Union, NOT have ECJ jurisdiction, NOT treat NI any different to the rest of the UK (except that NI residents will stay as EU citizens, unlike the rest of us), and NOT have freedom of movement.

We're sticking to our contradictory red lines, and calling the EU intransigent not only for sticking to theirs but for failing to come up with a solution to the problems we've caused through our contradictory demands. If I was the EU I'd probably have told the UK where to get off by now.

Having said that I'm sure the EU will make some token concessions in the next few weeks; they're not as intransigent or ideological as May's right wingers.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You see it as a hissy fit others don't.


Very true.

Edit: Actually not true, as I don't see it as a hissy fit. As I said, it was "unconvincingly hissy", because it was an act entirely intended to appeal to the nationalist element in the country, the press and Tory MPs in preparation for the party conference.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> 7,000 Civil Servants mobilised to prepare the UK for a No Deal Brexit.


Why would we need all those if No Deal is going to be such a cakewalk?


----------



## KittenKong

Well, if we're getting tabloid front pages uploaded here are some from Facebook this morning.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong the £39 Billion isn't set in stone._ *EU says "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"*_. So out of this money the UK will pay what is due until the day we leave the EU and keep the rest which will be put back into the UK's interests and not paid to the coughers in Brussels.

The UK will have paid the EU what we owe them and not a penny more.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Donald Tusk is desperately trying to get the talks back on track. Which part of this is a total Impasse doesn't he understand? They have made enough impasses themselves.

Only the PM can end the current Impasse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Hilarious John McDonnell announces Labour wants to press ahead with Brexit and wants Labour to fight a GE. :Hilarious

If they win the election Brexit will still happen. Then they want to re-nantionalise electricity, gas, water, public transport, trains etc :Hilarious Sorry but how much is this going to cost and where is the money coming from?????:Eggonface :Hilarious

Only the PM can call a GE John not Parliament and at the moment the next GE is 2022.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Only the PM can call a GE John not Parliament and at the moment the next GE is 2022


From the UK Parliament website:

A motion of no confidence, or censure motion, is a motion moved in the House of Commons with the wording: 'That this House has no confidence in HM Government'. If such a motion is agreed to, and a new government with the support of a majority of MPs cannot be formed within a period of 14 calendar days, Parliament is dissolved and an early General Election is triggered.

A motion of no confidence is one of only two ways in which an early General Election may be triggered under the terms of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011.​


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> 7,000 Civil Servants mobilised to prepare the UK for a No Deal Brexit.


So much for cutting inefficiently and waste, all because a pathetic PM can't get people in the UK to agree to her plan, let alone the rest of Europe!



stockwellcat. said:


> Labour want an Election :Hilarious
> 
> Sky News presenter Adam Boulton shuts Owen Jones down over with these facts:
> 
> View attachment 369333
> 
> 
> The Labour Party is behind Conservatives in the Polls and 75% of Labour Supporters want rid of Jeremy Corbyn as leader.


This I find so disheartening. Labour should be miles ahead in the polls. The tabloids have a lot to do with that though Corbyn's been digging himself in to a hole without their help by backing Brexit which has cost the support of many traditional Labour voters, myself included.

And where's Labour's reaction yesterday? Only seen a tweet from Kate Howey vouching full support for Theresa May. Always knew she was in the wrong party. She backs Foxhunting too.



stockwellcat. said:


> @KittenKong the £39 Billion isn't set in stone._ *EU says "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"*_. So out of this money the UK will pay what is due until the day we leave the EU and keep the rest which will be put back into the UK's interests and not paid to the coughers in Brussels.
> 
> The UK will have paid the EU what we owe them and not a penny more.


The agreed divorce settlement has already been, ahem, agreed which has to be paid regardless, deal or no deal. Threatening to withhold it doesn't look good, not only to Europe but the rest of the world.

If I default on a payment it'll affect my credit score which would make getting credit and loans more difficult in future.

It'll be good for the UK government to remember that. And what would the WTO say?

Then, I didn't vote for any of this.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> From the UK Parliament website:
> 
> A motion of no confidence, or censure motion, is a motion moved in the House of Commons with the wording: 'That this House has no confidence in HM Government'. If such a motion is agreed to, and a new government with the support of a majority of MPs cannot be formed within a period of 14 calendar days, Parliament is dissolved and an early General Election is triggered.
> 
> A motion of no confidence is one of only two ways in which an early General Election may be triggered under the terms of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011.​


Won't happen.

They need the majority of the 650 MP's to back a motion of no confidence against the Government. The majority of the Conservative party has said this morning they are behind the PM on this.

The Foreign Secretary this morning has said to the EU to step back from the abyss.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So much for cutting inefficiently and waste, all because a pathetic PM can't get people in the UK to agree to her plan, let alone the rest of Europe!


They may not agree with her Chequers plan but they do agree with her tough stance against the EU and saying what she said yesterday. Of course some remainers won't.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> If they win the election Brexit will still happen.* Then they want to re-nantionalise electricity, gas, water, public transport, trains etc :Hilarious Sorry but how much is this going to cost and where is the money coming from????*?:Eggonface :Hilarious
> .


The same place as the they get the money they subsidize them with now.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> :Hilarious John McDonnell announces Labour wants to press ahead with Brexit and wants Labour to fight a GE. :Hilarious
> 
> If they win the election Brexit will still happen. Then they want to re-nantionalise electricity, gas, water, public transport, trains etc :Hilarious Sorry but how much is this going to cost and where is the money coming from?????:Eggonface :Hilarious
> 
> Only the PM can call a GE John not Parliament and at the moment the next GE is 2022.


Yes, I agree with you on that sadly.
Renationalisation might have been costed for yet they still want Brexit which is going to cost on top of what's already been wasted.

Absolutely pathetic.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> The same place as the they get the money they subsidize them with now.


They are privately owned at the moment. They want to re-nationalise them, bring them under Government control.

Remember British Rail trains.

Proves Labour want the UK to step back in time.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They may not agree with her Chequers plan but they do agree with her tough stance against the EU and saying what she said yesterday. Of course some remainers won't.


With whispers of a leadership challenge in the pipeline and "good friends" like the US president suggesting Boris Johnson would make a good PM it makes you wonder if this was a deliberate performance from Theresa May to distract them from this.

It worked.

However, I believe she'll call a General Election before 2022 though.

It could be sooner than you think....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> With whispers of a leadership challenge in the pipeline


Well it's strange because I don't think this will happen either as only yesterday JRM was congratulating her for standing up to the EU and being tough. If there was a leadership challenge she may win again. She or any new PM is under no obligation to call a GE until 2022 under the Patliaments Act 2011. You may find those 80 MP's rallying around TM now.


> However, I believe she'll call a General Election before 2022 though.


I think she won't. She listened to her advisors last time who got sacked afterwards.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They are privately owned at the moment. They want to re-nationalise them, bring them under Government control.
> 
> Remember British Rail trains.
> 
> Proves Labour want the UK to step back in time.


And you think blue passports that people under 30 have never had isn't?

There was a lot of BR to criticise but the UK now has the worst rail system in Europe.

The East Coast rail line is again back in public hands for a second time.

They tried to privatise the running of the Tyne and Wear Metro system which got taken over by DB, the state owned German rail firm. It suffered almost all immediately.

Enough was enough when they failed to put on extra trains for the Great North Run resulting in utter chaos.

It's now back in public hands!

Fixing things that aren't broken is a Tory speciality. We saw it with the Poll Tax and in due course with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> And you think blue passports that people under 30 have never had isn't?
> 
> There was a lot of BR to criticise but the UK now has the worst rail system in Europe.
> 
> The East Coast rail line is again back in public hands for a second time.
> 
> They tried to privatise the running of the Tyne and Wear Metro system which got taken over by DB, the state owned German rail firm. It suffered almost all immediately.
> 
> Enough was enough when they failed to put on extra trains for the Great North Run resulting in utter chaos.
> 
> It's now back in public hands!


Bring back steam trains. The most reliable train ever invented.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Won't happen.
> 
> They need the majority of the 650 MP's to back a motion of no confidence against the Government. The majority of the Conservative party has said this morning they are behind the PM on this.
> 
> The Foreign Secretary this morning has said to the EU to step back from the abyss.


It might well not happen, though - can't remember if I've said this before - things change.

But it isn't only the PM who can call a GE.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> *They are privately owned at the moment*. They want to re-nationalise them, bring them under Government control.
> 
> Remember British Rail trains.
> 
> Proves Labour want the UK to step back in time.


*and they are still getting very large hand outs from the tax payer.
*
I remember BR, at least they had longer trains and few cancellations, if a train broke down anywhere in the country they would get a locomotive and a driver from the nearest place and get it running again, they can't do that now as there are so many company's they wont pay to get help.

They use to move train crews around to cover breakdowns to keep the job running and sometimes call drivers in to help out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It might well not happen, though - can't remember if I've said this before - things change.
> 
> But it isn't only the PM who can call a GE.


Ok I have read the Parliaments act 2011.








So I stand corrected.

They would still need 433+ (that is 2 thirds of 650) MP's to vote for it and in calling an election it will force the boundary changes and weaken Labour and Lib Dems.










2 3rds is 433 MP's that would have to vote in favour of a GE. Conservatives have 315 and 10 DUP = 325 which leaves 325 MP's from other parties. Conservatives and DUP won't vote for GE.

This will be then down to the PM to decide and she has ruled it out so far until 2022.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are treating the UK unfairly in the negotiations as they want the UK to keep making consessions but not make any themselves. That is not how negotiations work. They also said no to the Chequers Deal without explaination.
> 
> No Deal is still on the table.
> 
> May was right to stand her ground. No is not an acceptable answer withouta detailed explaination in any negotations at such a late stage a d pointinf out what is wrong and offering a counter proposal.


Why unfairly? Britain had a bit of extra leeway in EU , but no more.

Tusk does what he said he would, so does Bernier.
I know it comes as surprise here - politicians do what they said they would.

EU is surprised that Britain is surprised.

Saying all that , EU does not mention how Merkel's decisions on immigration taken as leader of Germany then demands that other EU countries did the same or else - affected the referendum.
Cameron had initially polls 70 to 30.
But neither Brits or Poles etc like when Germans tell them what to do or else.

Even if it is a right thing to do.

Merkel came across as a absolute ruler of EU for some and it really pushed the buttons.

Wonder if it was done on purpose - now with Britain out of EU Germany will dominate it no doubt.

That is why Heseltaine and I ( not related) resent Brexit so much.

It is really upsetting the balance of power diminishing Britain. 
Germany loses in financial way initially but gains much more influence in EU, so does France and lots of UK business will move there... so the loss not so great for them as for us.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> They would still need 433+ (that is 2 thirds of 650) MP's to vote for it and in calling an election it will force the boundary changes and weaken Labour and Lib Dems.


The proposed boundary changes have to go through parliament, they can not be forced in without a vote. The DUP are opposed to the changes I believe.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it's strange because I don't think this will happen either as only yesterday JRM was congratulating her for standing up to the EU and being tough. If there was a leadership challenge she may win again. She or any new PM is under no obligation to call a GE until 2022 under the Patliaments Act 2011. You may find those 80 MP's rallying around TM now.
> I think she won't. She listened to her advisors last time who got sacked afterwards.


Goes to show who's really pulling the strings unless it's May's attempt at avoiding a leadership challenge by proving herself as vile and fascist like many of her potential challengers.

So people from the UK aren't being disrespectful if they refuse to endorse her Brexiters proposals, yet the EU are for refusing them too?
:Hilarious

Tough? She looked absolutely pathetic because she is absolutely pathetic.

She's an embarrassment, probably more so than Boris Johnson if that's possible.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> The proposed boundary changes have to go through parliament, they can not be forced in without a vote. The DUP are opposed to the changes I believe.


The DUP will be gaining 2 so why are they against it?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 369351


I wouldn't happy to walk away without a deal, but I think that's what the government really want.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Ok I have read the Parliaments act 2011.
> View attachment 369347
> 
> So I stand corrected.
> 
> They would still need 433+ (that is 2 thirds of 650) MP's to vote for it and in calling an election it will force the boundary changes and weaken Labour and Lib Dems.
> 
> View attachment 369349
> 
> 
> 2 3rds is 433 MP's that would have to vote in favour of a GE. Conservatives have 315 and 10 DUP = 325 which leaves 325 MP's from other parties. Conservatives and DUP won't vote for GE.
> 
> *This will be then down to the PM to decide and she has ruled it out so far until 2022*.


If she stays as Tory Leader I wouldn't disagree. But things change ...


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> The proposed boundary changes have to go through parliament, they can not be forced in without a vote. The DUP are opposed to the changes I believe.


As might a number of Tory MPs who would risk seeing their seats disappear.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 369351


Does leading Brexiteer Penny Mordaunt have any facts to back up that assertion?

Looks like an Express piece to me, especially as they can't even spell her name right.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> As might a number of Tory MPs who would risk seeing their seats disappear.


Only 10 Tory MP's would lose their seats. Labour and Lib Dems see the most seats being lost.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Only 10 Tory MP's would lose their seats. Labour and Lib Dems see the most seats being lost.


Yes indeed.
It's called gerrymandering.

Future elections will be akin to Robert Mugawbe's Zimbabwe.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Future elections will be akin to Robert Mugawbe's Zimbabwe.


I doubt it will be that bad in the UK. I think that is scaremongering you are making there.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt it will be that bad in the UK. I think that is scaremongering you are making there.


Perhaps, but it's scary to think the Tories will be locking themselves into power almost indefinitely, unless a miracle happens, by taking away safe Labour/Lib Dem seats.

As it is, had their plan been undertaken at the last GE where TM lost her majority, she would have won it with a majority of at least 12.

The Theresa May Naz., sorry the Conservative Party should not be a default party in a democracy in much the same way the Republicans aren't in the US.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps, but it's scary to think the Tories will be locking themselves into power almost indefinitely, unless a miracle happens, by taking away safe Labour/Lib Dem seats.
> 
> As it is, had their plan been undertaken at the last GE where TM lost her majority, she would have won it with a majority of at least 12.
> 
> The Theresa May Naz., sorry the Conservative Party should not be a default party in a democracy in much the same way the Republicans aren't in the US.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Only 10 Tory MP's would lose their seats. Labour and Lib Dems see the most seats being lost.


There's also this ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...vote-against-boundary-review-plan-cut-number/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 369351


Speak for yourself my dahlin...


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Goes to show who's really pulling the strings unless it's May's attempt at avoiding a leadership challenge by proving herself as vile and fascist like many of her potential challengers.
> 
> So people from the UK aren't being disrespectful if they refuse to endorse her Brexiters proposals, yet the EU are for refusing them too?
> :Hilarious
> 
> Tough? She looked absolutely pathetic because she is absolutely pathetic.
> 
> She's an embarrassment, probably more so than Boris Johnson if that's possible.


We soon might be able to go compare... BoJo is right now knocking on the Door 10 and 3/4.....

And I would not bet on it...

Britain embarrassed itself in the eyes of Europe but there is a room for further humiliation with dear BoJo and his quips...


----------



## Arnie83

To boil this down ...

The UK has said we will Leave the single market, and the customs union, and the ECJ.

WTO rules require the EU to have border controls around its boundaries, and the above therefore requires a border between NI and Ireland as we will no longer be EU members or EEA members.

The UK says there must be no border on the island of Ireland, with which the EU agrees, due to the Good Friday Agreement.

The UK also says that a border in the Irish Sea is "Totally Unacceptable".

The UK also says that treating Northern Ireland any differently from the rest of the UK is "Unacceptable" and that the EU must respect that.

The UK come up with Chequers to square the circle created by their own incompatible red lines. It is rejected by Tories on the left and right, Leavers and Remainers, and, since it seeks to keep the UK enjoying all the benefits of the single market for goods, but doesn't want to include services or a customs union so that we can agree our own trade deals, it is also rejected by the EU as cherry picking and threatens the single market, which they have always said is their own red line on which they won't budge. The EU position that Chequers won't work, although the same as most Tories etc. (though for different reasons) is attacked by the government, the press, the ERG etc.

The UK says that it is now the EU's responsibility to come up with a plan - based on the Chequers proposal that won't get through the UK Parliament in any case - that respects all the UK's contradictory red lines and demands that the EU should make concessions, which would either involve breaking their own sole red line of protecting the single market, or breaking WTO rules, because that's only fair.

I think that's about it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They may not agree with her Chequers plan but they do agree with her tough stance against the EU and saying what she said yesterday. Of course some remainers won't.


Then, think of this....

If Theresa May's "tough stance" got the EU and the 27 member states to agree to her plan, what would you think then saying, like me, you're against her Chequers proposals?

One to think about......


----------



## Arnie83

Nigel Farage

The MEP said of the EU: "They are a bunch of gangsters."

Now that's respect. Odious little man.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Nigel Farage
> 
> The MEP said of the EU: "*They are a bunch of gangsters.*"


But he's right though.

Anyone in power are just rich gangsters including the EU leaders living off the taxes normal every day hard working citizens have to pay. We vote these gangsters into power to rule us. So yes Farage is right to call the EU leaders gangsters to.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> But he's right though.
> 
> Anyone in power are just rich gangsters including the EU leaders living off the taxes normal every day hard working citizens have to pay. We vote these gangsters into power to rule us. So yes Farage is right to call them gangsters to.


Ahem.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Ahem.....
> View attachment 369399


I don't need other peoples twitter or facebook feeds to speek for me.

Yes Trump is one to.

We all have to live by these gangsters rules and pay them via our taxes. All leaders are legal gangsters.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 369400


Thank you for your comment Tony Robinson. When's your next episode of time team on?


----------



## Elles

This thread has got really silly hasn’t it.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> This thread has got really silly hasn't it.


On the contrary, it's been very interesting.


----------



## KittenKong

Agree with this 100%
https://infacts.org/may-has-only-herself-to-blame-for-irish-border-fiasco/


----------



## KittenKong

Not holding my breath though....








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ferendum-peoples-vote-final-say-a8550701.html


----------



## KittenKong

And this is from the Sunday Times....








https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-theresa-may-hit-by-brexit-deadlock-3ppzg9l3r


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Not holding my breath though....
> View attachment 369413
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ferendum-peoples-vote-final-say-a8550701.html


From the Beeb;
Leader Jeremy Corbyn told the Sunday Mirror he was not calling for a new vote but would "adhere to" any decision made at this week's party conference.

And deputy leader Tom Watson, speaking to the Observer, said the view of party members must be respected.

It comes as a poll for the newspaper suggests *86%* of members want a vote on the outcome of Brexit negotiations.​
It isn't Labour policy yet, of course, but *things change*.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for your comment Tony Robinson. When's your next episode of time team on?


He's quite right though. The EU's one thick red line and Chequers still proposes that it is ignored. And she's asking for an explanation as to why!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> From the Beeb;
> Leader Jeremy Corbyn told the Sunday Mirror he was not calling for a new vote but would "adhere to" any decision made at this week's party conference.
> 
> And deputy leader Tom Watson, speaking to the Observer, said the view of party members must be respected​


That's all they need to do to win back my support and many others who've deserted Labour due to their current stance on Brexit.

We'll wait and see.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> He's quite right though. The EU's one thick red line and Chequers still proposes that it is ignored. And she's asking for an explanation as to why!


Let's face it, she's a disastrous politician as she was Home Secretary.

I fail to understand how anyone can still trust and believe a word that comes out of her mouth. I say that to other Tories let alone anyone else


----------



## Arnie83

From The Sunday Times

*Theresa May's team plot snap election to save Brexit*
Theresa May's aides have secretly begun contingency planning for a snap election in November to save the Brexit talks and her job after EU leaders rebuffed the prime minister's Chequers plan.​
Things change ...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's all they need to do to win back my support and many others who've deserted Labour due to their current stance on Brexit.
> 
> We'll wait and see.


You are easy to win back.

My concern with Corbyn is he wants an election not a Peoples Vote. So a GE will win over a PV. What if Labour loses a GE it will make them even weaker.

There has to be a no confidence vote against the current Government. You really think the Conservatives will vote against their own parties Government? I don't think so. So there isn't the numbers to call a GE as pointed out yesterday. 433+ MP's have to vote a vote of no confidence and there is 325 MP's on Conservatives side including DUP. Sinn Fein refuses to sit in Parliament. So the numbers don't stack up on the other side of the house to call a GE. So the only option left is the PM calls a GE and Parliament have to agree.

The PM has made it clear there will be no further Referendums so the Peoples Vote is dead in the water.

Regarding May calling an election I think she will now push no deal as her campaign for a GE if she called a GE which would win her votes from those that voted for brexit as she would be giving what they wanted. Don't believe me, you should read the comments at the end of the news articles in the paperd. Or the other option is to put a brexitier at the helm in the Conservative party and oust May.

If a Peoples Vote happened and the remainers lost what then? Would you be moaning for the next 40 years for another referendum to overturn that one? At the moment the PM has said a second referendum is off the table.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Watching Sky News now the guy on (a member of the Labour Leadership team) says Labour Leadership want a General Election first not a second referendum. There isn't enough numbers for a vote of no confidence vote against the current Government in Parliament just a technicallity. Then he waffled on about getting a good deal for the UK in the Brexit negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> From The Sunday Times
> 
> *Theresa May's team plot snap election to save Brexit*
> Theresa May's aides have secretly begun contingency planning for a snap election in November to save the Brexit talks and her job after EU leaders rebuffed the prime minister's Chequers plan.​
> Things change ...


Dream on.

None of the other papers apart from the Times and Express (the Express says it is The Times that is reporting this so it is just one paper reporting it) have published this and the article is so vague. Sky News has already trashed it as the article is so vague.

Even if she did doesn't mean Labour will win.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> To boil this down ...
> 
> The UK has said we will Leave the single market, and the customs union, and the ECJ.
> 
> WTO rules require the EU to have border controls around its boundaries, and the above therefore requires a border between NI and Ireland as we will no longer be EU members or EEA members.
> 
> The UK says there must be no border on the island of Ireland, with which the EU agrees, due to the Good Friday Agreement.
> 
> The UK also says that a border in the Irish Sea is "Totally Unacceptable".
> 
> The UK also says that treating Northern Ireland any differently from the rest of the UK is "Unacceptable" and that the EU must respect that.
> 
> The UK come up with Chequers to square the circle created by their own incompatible red lines. It is rejected by Tories on the left and right, Leavers and Remainers, and, since it seeks to keep the UK enjoying all the benefits of the single market for goods, but doesn't want to include services or a customs union so that we can agree our own trade deals, it is also rejected by the EU as cherry picking and threatens the single market, which they have always said is their own red line on which they won't budge. The EU position that Chequers won't work, although the same as most Tories etc. (though for different reasons) is attacked by the government, the press, the ERG etc.
> 
> The UK says that it is now the EU's responsibility to come up with a plan - based on the Chequers proposal that won't get through the UK Parliament in any case - that respects all the UK's contradictory red lines and demands that the EU should make concessions, which would either involve breaking their own sole red line of protecting the single market, or breaking WTO rules, because that's only fair.
> 
> I think that's about it.


That leaves Gibraltar out of single market and customs etc. We rely on workforce and supplies from Spain, we live off services and tourism.

That practically decapitates Gibraltar. With all the talk about the Irish forgot to add that. If there are no jobs where those British people will go?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Watching Sky News now the guy on (a member of the Labour Leadership team) says Labour Leadership want a General Election first not a second referendum. There isn't enough numbers for a vote of no confidence vote against the current Government in Parliament just a technicallity. Then he waffled on about getting a good deal for the UK in the Brexit negotiations.


Of course they want a General Election, but calling one isn't in their power.

What they will do, though, is adopt as policy the wishes of their members, and it seems that 86% of those members want a People's Vote. It is likely that will become their policy by the end of the conference. Then it only takes a handful of Tory rebels ...



stockwellcat. said:


> Dream on.
> 
> None of the other papers apart from the Times and Express (the Express says it is The Times that is reporting this so it is just one paper reporting it) have published this and the article is so vague. Sky News has already trashed it as the article is so vague.
> 
> Even if she did doesn't mean Labour will win.


It isn't my dream. I think it would be extremely irresponsible. But it shows that we can't be too sure that there will be no election before 2022.

The point is that, especially in the current situation, things change.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> That leaves Gibraltar out of single market and customs etc. We rely on workforce and supplies from Spain, we live off services and tourism.
> 
> That practically decapitates Gibraltar. With all the talk about the Irish forgot to add that. If there are no jobs where those British people will go?


I have to admit I haven't seen Gibraltar mentioned in the Brexit stories for a long time. Difficult to avoid the conclusion that it isn't high on the Government's agenda.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You are easy to win back.
> 
> My concern with Corbyn is he wants an election not a Peoples Vote. So a GE will win over a PV. What if Labour loses a GE it will make them even weaker.
> 
> There has to be a no confidence vote against the current Government. You really think the Conservatives will vote against their own parties Government? I don't think so. So there isn't the numbers to call a GE as pointed out yesterday. 433+ MP's have to vote a vote of no confidence and there is 325 MP's on Conservatives side including DUP. Sinn Fein refuses to sit in Parliament. So the numbers don't stack up on the other side of the house to call a GE. So the only option left is the PM calls a GE and Parliament have to agree.
> 
> The PM has made it clear there will be no further Referendums so the Peoples Vote is dead in the water.


You forget I am a traditional Labour supporter though. It would take a hell of a lot for me to withdraw my support. In this case it was Corbyn's pro Brexit stance.

Corbyn choice is simple: If he backs a people's vote if Labour as a party support that and puts it in writing in a manifesto he can count on my support.

If he doesn't, he won't get my or many other Labour supporters vote.

You think the people's vote is dead in the water because Theresa May says so? Don't forget the snap election she promised not to hold amongst other things.

Mind you, I'm not building my hopes up in either case at the moment.
It helps that ALL major trade unions back a people's vote with the exception of Unite, but that appears to be due to McClusky not wishing to cause embarrassment to Corbyn rather than what their members have decided.

Theresa May might not think so, but what is definitely dead in the water is her Chequers plan, rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike and now, rightly, by the EU.

She still doesn't get that and presses on with it......

Does she enjoy humiliation so she can come on National TV to winge no one respects her? Why should anyone? I certainly don't. Is it compulsory for others to do so? The UK isn't a dictatorship yet.

Her finest moment is what the Brexcess reported.

Her finest moment would be her resignation...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You forget I am a traditional Labour supporter though. Corbyn's choice is simple: If he backs a people's vote if Labour as a party support that and puts it in writing in a manifesto he can count on my support.
> 
> If he doesn't, he won't get my or many other Labour supporters vote.
> 
> You think the people's vote is dead in the water because Theresa May says so? Don't forget the snap election she promised not to hold amongst other things.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not building my hopes up in either case at the moment.
> It helps that ALL major trade unions back a people's vote with the exception of Unite.
> 
> Theresa May might not think so, but what is definitely dead in the water is her Chequers plan, rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike and now, rightly, by the EU.
> 
> She still doesn't get that and presses on with it......
> 
> Does she enjoy humiliation so she can come on National TV to say no one respects her?
> 
> Her finest hour is what the Brexcess reported.
> 
> Her finest hour would be her resignation...


This might shock you but I was a traditional labour supporter until Ed Milliband became party leader and then Corbyn. I also refuse to vote for Kate Hoey due to her fox hunting stance as after all that is who I would have to vote for in a GE.

I agree that May should let go of the Chequers Deal and listen to what the Brexitiers and the rest of her party want which is the Canada Plus Plus Deal even Donald Tusk said the Canada Plus Plus deal would be acceptable and in favour of other EU leaders.

If a snap election manages to get off the ground I won't be voting. Don't like Corbyn and I personally feel a new leader is needed in Labour. If a Peoples Vote happens I will vote to leave the EU with no deal. I am against a Peoples Vote though as the Referendum of 2016 should be respected and what was voted for delivered as promised.

We'll have to see what happens next.


----------



## kimthecat

oh dear , not another election .  Ours is a safe seat for Cons.

@Arnie83 What would happen if there was another referendum and it was Remain , would the EU accept it . They might not want us back .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> oh dear , not another election .  Ours is a safe seat for Cons.
> 
> @Arnie83 What would happen if there was another referendum and it was Remain , would the EU accept it . They might not want us back .


I would be very surprised indeed if the EU didn't accept it.

For a start, we are a net contributor to their budget, and we bring 65 million relatively affluent (on average) consumers to the single market. We do make the EU stronger, no doubt about it.

Secondly it would send a powerful message to any other country that is watching how it all pans out and wondering if an Exit might be for them. "The UK toyed with the idea of leaving, went through 2 years of complete chaos and economic slow-down, and finally realised that it was such a bad idea that they changed their minds," would be the message. "And, magnanimous as we are, we welcomed them back into the fold."

I guess it's possible that some in the EU might make noises about our rebate, but they'd quickly be hushed up!

But currently, I have to say, I would not be in the least bit surprised if the result of another referendum was to Leave, with or without a deal.

And as a caveat, I could easily be wrong about anything I've said above!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Both of these suit me down to the ground.

Conservative Party Leadership challenge and No Deal are on the table then? Put a Brexitier in charge at least then we know where we stand.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> She'd have run for the hills like Cameron.


TBH, I think by resigning Cameron did the most honest thing he ever managed in his career. He was not a Brexiter and like everyone else was sure Remain would win. When (to most people's shock) they didn't, he admitted that ''he was not the person for the job of leading UK out of EU'' or words to that effect. He obviously knew it would be a crazy and forlorn task since they had no plan set out for leaving, being so confident that Brexit was not going to win. May was not a Brexiter either, but was not honest enough to admit it. Hence is making a total balls-up of everything as far as I can see. In fact, the only time I had any respect for DC was when he said he was out.


----------



## KittenKong

Kimthecat:@Arnie83 What would happen if there was another referendum and it was Remain , would the EU accept it . They might not want us back .[/QUOTE]

Once left I don't think the EU would welcome the UK back unless there's a change of government. By that I mean the moderate pro Europe side of the Tory party as well as a more moderate Labour administration.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May has denied she is thinking of holding another snap election and tells warring Tories to hold their nerve on Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Len McCluskey from Unite says staying in the EU should not be an option in any second brexit referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> TBH, I think by resigning Cameron did the most honest thing he ever managed in his career. He was not a Brexiter and like everyone else was sure Remain would win. When (to most people's shock) they didn't, he admitted that ''he was not the person for the job of leading UK out of EU'' or words to that effect. He obviously knew it would be a crazy and forlorn task since they had no plan set out for leaving, being so confident that Brexit was not going to win. May was not a Brexiter either, but was not honest enough to admit it. Hence is making a total balls-up of everything as far as I can see. In fact, the only time I had any respect for DC was when he said he was out.


If this is true he wasn't very bright though was he. I knew Leave would win the referendum after 40 years of hatred towards the EEC and Europe in general by the media. It must also be remembered Labour under Michael Foot in the '80s supported withdrawal from what was the EEC as well.

The same outcome would inevitably result if the referendum was about restoration of the death penalty or compulsory military service for school leavers. "Teach ''em a bit of discipline".

If Cameron had an ounce of intellegence he must have realised previous general election results were heavily influenced by the press. If they were to back Brexit he must have realised his gamble had failed once The Sun had their " Believe In Britain" front page.

And to hold it during a major European football tournament as well!

Always to give credit where its due, the only thing I can respect DC over were his attempt to modernise the Tory Party and his support for Gay marriage against much opposition from his own party.

His gamble has hardly united his party though has it, which was his intention. On the contrary.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Len McCluskey from Unite says staying in the EU should not be an option in any second brexit referendum.
> 
> View attachment 369472


Who the hell does he think he is? He's not Labour leader and chooses to ignore the wishes of his own members. Rather like how Theresa May ignores everyone except herself.

They would be no point in a people's vote if the options were to accept the Chequers deal (which has already been rejected by almost everyone) or no deal! People must be asked if they wish to retract Article 50 should they wish.

I've never been a member of Unite and it's earlier forms. I would have resigned if I was and given my reasons for doing so.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Who the hell does he think he is? He's not Labour leader and chooses to ignore the wishes of his own members. Rather like how Theresa May ignores everyone except herself.
> 
> They would be no point in a people's vote if the options were to accept the Chequers deal (which has already been rejected by almost everyone) or no deal! People must be asked if they wish to retract Article 50 should they wish.
> 
> I've never been a member of Unite and it's earlier forms. I would have resigned if I was and given my reasons for doing so.


I could understand that approach if nothing had changed since the referendum. But since neither Chequers nor No Deal bears any resemblance to what was on offer two years ago, I can't see a sensible, let alone democratic argument for not including Remain on a new ballot, should one be offered.

It shows a marked lack of respect for the electorate to imply that they would feel pressured to change their minds against their own wishes, especially when we're repeatedly being told how resolute the British are and how they react to apparent bullying.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May has denied she is thinking of holding another snap election


Did she add, "And this time I mean it"?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Did she add, "And this time I mean it"?


You will see won't you. Don't build your hopes up on there being one as the numbers in Parliament don't stack up to call a No Confidence vote against the Government either (433 2/3s of 650 MP's needed to do this).

Is the Anti Semitism row going to raise its head at the Labour Conference? I also notice there has already been one row thanks to Dawn Butler.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You will see won't you. Don't build your hopes up on there being one as the numbers in Parliament don't stack up to call a No Confidence vote against the Government either (433 2/3s of 650 MP's needed to do this).
> 
> Is the Anti Semitism row going to raise its head at the Labour Conference? I also notice there has already been one row thanks to Dawn Butler.


As I've said innumerable times, I'm not in favour of another GE.

If it came, though, it wouldn't necessarily require a 'no confidence' vote, as per yesterday's posts.

I have no idea whether anti-Semitism will come up, though I imagine it might. But this being the Brexit thread, I'll be looking out for their conclusions on a new referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You will see won't you. Don't build your hopes up on there being one as the numbers in Parliament don't stack up to call a No Confidence vote against the Government either (433 2/3s of 650 MP's needed to do this).
> 
> Is the Anti Semitism row going to raise its head at the Labour Conference? I also notice there has already been one row thanks to Dawn Butler.


Seeing that Tory Islamaphobia has been buried under the carpet, probably.

Not that gives any excuse for any anti semitism in the Labour Party.

Getting back to Len McClusky he's going to find himself rather isolated with his viewpoint, seeing that all other major unions back a people's vote with the option to remain. Surely McClusky must realise the options will otherwise be May's already rejected deal or no deal. Presumably he knows this and wants No Deal.

We'll wait and see if Corbyn follows this through or not in accepting a party vote that gives the option to remain or not. I'm not building my hopes up either way.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You will see won't you. Don't build your hopes up on there being one as the numbers in Parliament don't stack up to call a No Confidence vote against the Government either (433 2/3s of 650 MP's needed to do this).
> 
> Is the Anti Semitism row going to raise its head at the Labour Conference? I also notice there has already been one row thanks to Dawn Butler.


Likewise don't build your hopes up if there is one!

Nothing would surprise me. Perhaps her mandate will be in support of her Chequers plan she refuses to drop with threats of what will happen if they won't comply. Shortages of food and medicines already belated on by her army of yes men for example.

I guess her performance the other day was to attempt to get public support for it, even if her own colleagues oppose it.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> May was not a Brexiter either, but was not honest enough to admit it.


She's admitted it innumerable times and she's the only one with balls enough (maybe except Boris) to see this through. Most others would have crawled away to claim their huge pensions by now.
I admire the woman, don't always agree with her, but admire all the same


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> She's admitted it innumerable times and she's the only one with balls enough (maybe except Boris) to see this through. Most others would have crawled away to claim their huge pensions by now.
> *I admire the woman, don't always agree with her, but admire all the same*


I wonder about her still. In the referendum campaign she said "I believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the EU", which I presume she still believes. Is she going for a soft Chequers-like Brexit because the national interest demands it, against the wishes of her right wing? If so then, as you say, she's got balls.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder about her still.


That makes two of us.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> If this is true he wasn't very bright though was he.


I don't remember saying he was.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder about her still. In the referendum campaign she said "I believe it is clearly in our national interest to remain a member of the EU", which I presume she still believes. Is she going for a soft Chequers-like Brexit because the national interest demands it, against the wishes of her right wing? If so then, as you say, she's got balls.


In other words, stay in the EU in most things except in name, but not the issues that contradict her hostile environment policy and her beloved immigration targets.

What " balls"? May is nothing but a complete and utter embarrassment and completely delusional. She behaves like a spoilt child.

As the saying goes, ,"Don't treat me like a child"

"Then stop behaving like one".


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> In other words, stay in the EU in most things except in name, but not the issues that contradict her hostile environment policy and her beloved immigration targets.
> 
> What " balls"? Maybe nothing but a complete and utter embarrassment and completely delusional. She behaves like a spoilt child.
> 
> As the saying goes, ,"Don't treat me like a child"
> 
> "Then stop behaving like one".


I could be wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't altogether approve of the lady! 

The thing is, a soft Brexit, especially in the face of the Mogglodyte rebellion, would be better, economically, for the country than any other option bar forgetting the whole thing. Maybe that last is actually part of her long-game plan. If so I would be impressed at the Machiavellian management of it all. And why else would she come up with something as unpopular as Chequers, which is likely to leave us with No Deal & Remain as the only two options?

On the other hand, she could simply be reacting to events going on around her, over which she has no control, with the sole intention of keeping her job and maintaining her obvious aspirations to be Maggie II. Which makes Chequers simply a monumental cock-up.

The latter looks a lot more likely doesn't it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is the entire article in the FT


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 369511
> 
> View attachment 369514
> 
> View attachment 369515


Of course Corbyn will. He'd prefer a general election.

Yet he said he would "honour" what's decided at the LP conference. The only objector would appear to be McClusky.

Still, we'll wait and see. I'm sceptical but would have to see a pledge for a true peoples vote in writing in a future Labour manifesto before I would be convinced.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Of course Corbyn will. He'd prefer a general election.
> 
> *Yet he said he would "honour" what's decided at the LP conference.* The only objector would appear to be McClusky.


We'll see.


> Still, we'll wait and see. I'm sceptical but would have to see a pledge for a true peoples vote in writing in a future Labour manifesto before I would be convinced.


If you refresh the page as I was uploading the entire article.

He is resisting a second referendum and as you said wants a GE.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Owen Smith MP (Labour) reckons Labours Brexit policy could be a fudge.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-45595053


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Of course Corbyn will. He'd prefer a general election.
> 
> Yet he said he would "honour" what's decided at the LP conference. The only objector would appear to be McClusky.
> 
> Still, we'll wait and see. I'm sceptical but would have to see a pledge for a true peoples vote in writing in a future Labour manifesto before I would be convinced.





stockwellcat. said:


> We'll see.
> 
> If you refresh the page as I was uploading the entire article.
> 
> He is resisting a second referendum and as you said wants a GE.


I think he will definitely abide by what conference decides. He is all about party democracy.

BUT, what I wonder is what question the Conference will be voting on. That's where his resistance may have an effect, because he will have a big say in its wording.

Edit: Pretty much exactly as Owen Smith suggests in SC's post!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I could be wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't altogether approve of the lady!
> 
> The thing is, a soft Brexit, especially in the face of the Mogglodyte rebellion, would be better, economically, for the country than any other option bar forgetting the whole thing. Maybe that last is actually part of her long-game plan. If so I would be impressed at the Machiavellian management of it all. And why else would she come up with something as unpopular as Chequers, which is likely to leave us with No Deal & Remain as the only two options?
> 
> On the other hand, she could simply be reacting to events going on around her, over which she has no control, with the sole intention of keeping her job and maintaining her obvious aspirations to be Maggie II. Which makes Chequers simply a monumental cock-up.
> 
> The latter looks a lot more likely doesn't it!


Not to me. I've thought the former has been the plan from day one and have been following it going down that particular road since we voted to leave. I've been waiting for it to change tack and it hasn't yet.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Owen Smith MP (Labour) reckons Labours Brexit policy could be a fudge.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-45595053


Of course it is. Apart from vowing to keep the UK in the customs union that would be one of the solutions to the Irish border question we know May has refused to consider, their plan is otherwise complete delusional fudge.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I have to admit I haven't seen Gibraltar mentioned in the Brexit stories for a long time. Difficult to avoid the conclusion that it isn't high on the Government's agenda.


No one cares. I am under impression that most English people do not even know where is Gibraltar, Why should they care?

Don't dare to mention voting correlated with level of education ...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think he will definitely abide by what conference decides. He is all about party democracy.
> 
> BUT, what I wonder is what question the Conference will be voting on. That's where his resistance may have an effect, because he will have a big say in its wording.
> 
> Edit: Pretty much exactly as Owen Smith suggests in SC's post!


I think, with much ill feeling about Brexit the majority would vouch for a real people's vote. I can see that getting voted through at the conference.

However, we'll have to wait and see if Corbyn keeps his word.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am considering forming my own party and it is because I support* none of the above* if a General Election was to take place.

So if a general election happens consider voting:


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear. More self made humiliation for Maybot.

Can we expect her to appear on national tv again, winging that no one respects her and how dare they not do so?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...re-to-ditch-chequers-plan-in-cabinet-showdown


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am considering forming my own party and it is because I support* none of the above* if a General Election was to take place.
> 
> So if a general election happens consider voting:
> View attachment 369559


But who's going to lead that party?

Wonder if anyone remembers the 1975 Goodies special where puppets took over parliament?

The Nationwide piece with Michael Barrett, presenter of the programme at the time, interviewing the Prime Minister is probably the best bit as the PM turned out to be Sooty, (from The Sooty Show).

What made it so funny was how Michael Barrett managed to keep a straight face as if he was doing a serious interview.

Come to think of it, such a government would do better than what we have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I would vote for Bob Geldof.



Why people hate May? She only delivers what they asked for?

EU were clear where the redlines were and May , BoJo or Farage would make no difference.
Or Corbyn that forced his party for push through Article 50.

There is no such thing as a “good Brexit” , never was, only damage limitation.

Soon you’ll have BoJo etc... 
Or else.
BlueBrexit or red, still Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Well Labour have sort of fudged it, in that they're going to vote to keep "all options" on the table if they don't get a general election, including campaigning for another referendum.

_But_, they have rejected the idea that any referendum should be restricted to "the terms of Brexit", which means that if they do support one, it will include the option to Remain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45622161


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Why people hate May? She only delivers what they asked for?


So true.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Well Labour have sort of fudged it, in that they're going to vote to keep "all options" on the table if they don't get a general election, including campaigning for another referendum.
> 
> _But_, they have rejected the idea that any referendum should be restricted to "the terms of Brexit", which means that if they do support one, it will include the option to Remain.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45622161


That is the problem, then they will say they didn't say that...
Like with students' debt and uni fees.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the majority of Cabinet want May to go for a Canada style Deal which will deliver what many others voted for. The majority of Cabinet want her to ditch Chequers.

Cabinet show down day today.

Donald Tusk said the EU would accept a Canada style trade agreement.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Why people hate May? She only delivers what they asked for?


Where do I start? Those "Go home or face arrest" vans she paraded around predominately "Non white" areas, the hostile environment.

Yes, it's not only May personally responsible for such cruel and wicked policies such as the Bedroom tax (conveniently forgotten about), food banks in a rich and civilised society. Part of a wicked agenda by a bunch of vile politicians robbing from the poor to line their own pockets.

And, is May actually delivering what her subjects, sorry, people asked for?

That would need a thread on it's own.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the majority of Cabinet want May to go for a Canada style Deal which will deliver what many others voted for. The majority of Cabinet want her to ditch Chequers.
> 
> Cabinet show down day today.
> 
> Donald Tusk said the EU would accept a Canada style trade agreement.


The EU have said since the very beginning that a Canada style deal was on offer, (along with Norway-style which we're still rejecting).

The problem was that David Davis wanted Canada +++, in which we were - guess what - cherry picking bits of the single market. So long as we don't keep doing that, it should be doable. Chequers clearly isn't, since it already goes too far for the EU and nowhere near far enough for the Tory rebels.

Labour will still vote against it, though.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Where do I start? Those "Go home or face arrest" vans she paraded around predominately "Non white" areas, the hostile environment.
> 
> Yes, it's not only May personally responsible for such cruel and wicked policies such as *the Bedroom tax (conveniently forgotten about)*, food banks in a rich and civilised society. Part of a wicked agenda by a bunch of vile politicians robbing from the poor to line their own pockets.
> 
> And, is May actually delivering what her subjects, sorry, people asked for?
> 
> That would need a thread on it's own.


Probably because there is no such thing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like Labour are not offering an option to remain if there is a second referendum.


















https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-referendum-should-not-include-remain-option

Oh dear. Those hoping to stop Brexit won't be able to.


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> Why people hate May? She only delivers what they asked for?





stockwellcat. said:


> So true.


Does she, though? I'm hearing more and more conversations along the lines of "I voted leave, but not for this mess - I'd much rather remain now I know what the real consequences are!"


----------



## stockwellcat.

My question is this. So Labour are looking at not having another In/Out referendum but rather a referendum on the deal with the idea of somehow sending the negotiators back to the negotiating table. They intend on rejecting any deal the Government come up with. Wouldn't this then put the UK in a default no deal situation because all of the remaining 27 EU countries and all the suburbs of Brussels have to agree to this as it would mean having to extend the article 50 notice? This would put the UK either in permenant limbo or crash out of the EU with no deal.

The Labour leadership look like they are also planning to deny people wanting to overturn Brexit a Peoples Vote. Talk about stabbing all those that have campaigned hard for a peoples vote in the back. Don't you feel you have wasted your time now protesting for a Peoples Vote as it looks like it aint going to happen.

Oh well.

The Labour leadership seem to think in doing it this way respects the result of the referendum of 2016.

The Labour Leadership also want to leave the EU as well but with a Labour Leadership in control hence they'd prefer a GE.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> My question is this. So Labour are looking at not having another In/Out referendum but rather a referendum on the deal with the idea of somehow sending the negotiators back to the negotiating table. They intend on rejecting any deal the Government come up with. Wouldn't this then put the UK in a default no deal situation because all of the remaining 27 EU countries and all the suburbs of Brussels have to agree to this as it would mean having to extend the article 50 notice? This would put the UK either in permenant limbo or crash out of the EU with no deal


Personally I think the EU would prefer permanent limbo over letting the current idiot ball scenario crash and burn, as right now I think they probably care about the future of the average UK citizen far more than the No Dealers, if only because it also benefits the EU. There are obvious advantages to them from still having free trade with us (even though us stropping out with a No Deal would hurt us many times more than them), and I suspect they also have a lot of Big Business lobbying them to prevent their UK infrastructures and investments becoming greatly devalued and more or less isolated overnight. Just because Big Business can make the switch to mainland Europe (and, in many cases, has been preparing to), doesn't mean it wants the expense and hassle of it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Looks like Labour are not offering an option to remain if there is a second referendum.....
> 
> Oh dear. Those hoping to stop Brexit won't be able to.


Not necessarily. Seems so far the only ones saying this are Len McClusky and now McDonnell. I'd be more concerned if I heard Corbyn himself insist on that.

This wasn't what I heard on an interview on R4 this morning. McDonnell said the usual, "Labour respect the referendum result", which is what you'd expect and would have to say being completely true as Labour policy as it currently stands, but recognised things have changed. Preferring a GE naturally he saw the PV as an option if one is not called.

I don't recall him emphasising such a vote must not give an option to remain.

It's ultimately up to the members and delegates to vote for any change. With the very strong support for a proper PV I guess the motion will be passed with a huge majority.

Then, we'll see if Corbyn keeps his word or not to change their policy on the matter.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not necessarily. Seems so far the only ones saying this are Len McClusky and now McDonnell. I'd be more concerned if I heard Corbyn himself insist on that.
> 
> This wasn't what I heard on an interview on R4 this morning. McDonnell said the usual, "Labour respect the referendum result", which is what you'd expect and would have to say being completely true as Labour policy as it currently stands, but recognised things have changed. Preferring a GE naturally he saw the PV as an option if one is not called.
> 
> I don't recall him emphasising such a vote must not give an option to remain.
> 
> It's ultimately up to the members and delegates to vote for any change. With the very strong support for a proper PV I guess the motion will be passed with a huge majority.
> 
> Then, we'll see if Corbyn keeps his word or not to change their policy on the matter.












Even labour seem split if you ask me.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I am considering forming my own party and it is because I support* none of the above* if a General Election was to take place.
> 
> So if a general election happens consider voting:
> View attachment 369559


:Hilarious Thats a long name to fit on a badge !

Wonder who would another GE? Corbyn apparently "won" the election last time ! :Hilarious
The communists , sorry the labour party , might win this time !


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Wonder who would another GE? Corbyn apparently "won" the election last time ! :Hilarious
> The communists , sorry the *labour party* , *might win this time* !


Doubt it. Sounds like they are u-turning on there Brexit motion vote not to include an option to remain. Labour are split on Brexit as well. No fairy god mother in the Labour party for some of the remainers wanting a peoples vote only a confused old man.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Doubt it. Sounds like they are u-turning on there Brexit motion vote not to include an option to remain. Labour are split on Brexit as well. No fairy god mother in the Labour party for some of the remainers only a confused old man.


Yeah , lets start the










party ! :Smuggrin
You can be PM and I'll be the Chancellor of the Exchequer ! My maths isn't good but I know how to use a calculator


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Yeah , lets start the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> party ! :Smuggrin
> You can be PM and I'll be the Chancellor of the Exchequer ! My maths isn't good but I know how to use a calculator


Well the only way it would work is if None Of The Above are at the bottom of the ballot sheet other wise it wouldn't work :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the only way it would work is if None Of The Above are at the bottom of the ballot sheet other wise it wouldn't work :Hilarious


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious I never thought of that !


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Doubt it. Sounds like they are u-turning on there Brexit motion vote not to include an option to remain. Labour are split on Brexit as well. No fairy god mother in the Labour party for some of the remainers wanting a peoples vote only a confused old man.


They'll be an uproar if they cancel the PV motion, as they attempted to silence any Brexit talk last year.

Even more so if Corbyn goes back on his word not to acknowledge a motion passed at the conference.

Yes, Labour are divided over brexit. Then so is the entire UK.

Then next week the Tories can equally self destruct themselves by negotiating May's Chequers deal or no deal.

Wasn't it Cameron who said WWIII could break out in the event of a brexit vote?

What he neglected to say was WWIII in party politics that is......


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> They'll be an uproar if they cancel the PV motion, as they attempted to silence any Brexit talk last year.
> 
> Even more so if Corbyn goes back on his word not to acknowledge a motion passed at the conference.
> 
> Yes, Labour are divided over brexit. Then so is the entire UK.
> 
> Then next week the Tories can equally self destruct themselves by negotiating May's Chequers deal or no deal.
> 
> Wasn't it Cameron who said WWIII could break out in the event of a brexit vote?
> 
> What he neglected to say was WWIII in party politics that is......


I know it is Conservatives turn next week.
Let's look at the options:

Dead Flogged Horse (Chequers Plan)
Favoured Canada Style Deal
No Deal

I can live with both a Canada Style Deal and No Deal.

Yes I remember Cameron's Fear Mongering (Project Fear Campaign trying to get people to vote remain). He actually said if Vote Leave Won there would be WW3. He was completely wrong though.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I know it is Conservatives turn next week.
> Let's look at the options:
> 
> Dead Flogged Horse (Chequers Plan)
> Favoured Canada Style Deal
> No Deal
> 
> I can live with both a Canada Style Deal and No Deal.
> 
> Yes I remember Cameron's Fear Mongering (Project Fear Campaign trying to get people to vote remain). He actually said if Vote Leave Won there would be WW3. He was completely wrong though.


Yes, that was a stupid thing for Cameron to say, especially before Trump got elected.

Ahem.... Yes, May's army of yes men would of course continue to back her Chequers plan.

I dread to think of the consequences if they didn't.

So, expect more project fear from them, suggesting only Theresa May and her plan will stop the country going to ruin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45624789


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 369628
> 
> 
> Ahem.... Yes, May's army of yes men would of course continue to back her Chequers plan.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45624789


You know why they back it don't you? The Impasse TM declared and No deal.


----------



## Jesthar

Oh dear, not the 'Full backing of the board (the pink slip's in the post)' statement.

As to physical conflict, one does have to wonder what would happen in Ireland if Our Glorious Leaders decided to go full muppet with a No Deal. Given that under WTO rules there HAS to be a border implemented around defined economic areas, the EU would have to do _something _to enforce one between Eire and NI, and I can't see any course of action which wouldn't result in trouble at that point...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I can just imagine the ballot sheet for a second referendum now if it ever happened.

Which deal would you prefer:
Chequers Deal (Theresa May's Deal)
Canada Style Deal (Jacob Rees Mogg's)
The Keep The UK in Limbo Deal (Labour Parties Deal)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh dear. According to Sky News the Labour Party Leaders have back tracked on the Peoples Vote suggesting that the vote should be on the deal and not a fresh Referendum and an option to remain should not be on the ballot sheet. Not what they said on Saturday. JM reckons a deal can be made in December if Labour took over. JM the deadline is the October summit. Keir Starmer is fuming.

I must admit this has been one of the funniest Labour conferences I have ever read about so far.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You know why they back it don't you? The Impasse TM declared and No deal.


So why are the likes of JRM suggesting the Canada+ arrangement? That isn't exactly no deal to me as that would be something negotiated with the EU.

As for your comment about Labour in limbo at least, as far as I'm aware, agreed to keep the UK in the customs union which guarantees no Irish border at least. Otherwise it's more deluded crap.

Some could argue May would look weak and not exercising her authority should she take orders from the likes of JRM by dropping her plan and go with his own without consulting the party as a whole.

Thus she must keep trying with her Chequers plan right up to the bitter end which could be at the end of the Tory party conference all being well. I will say the same for Corbyn if he goes back on his word.

Don't forget, many Brexiters still consider May to be a remainer!


----------



## KittenKong

Poll end in 7 hours.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Where do I start? Those "Go home or face arrest" vans she paraded around predominately "Non white" areas, the hostile environment.
> 
> Yes, it's not only May personally responsible for such cruel and wicked policies such as the Bedroom tax (conveniently forgotten about), food banks in a rich and civilised society. Part of a wicked agenda by a bunch of vile politicians robbing from the poor to line their own pockets.
> 
> And, is May actually delivering what her subjects, sorry, people asked for?
> 
> That would need a thread on it's own.


Yes. She does and it was called " Project Fear" by some.
She tries to marry the demands of ERW Tories, of the City, the Irish and Joe Bloggs with EU red lines thrown in.

Why anyone could be surprised it is mess?
There was one Remain - but then Leavers had very diverse expectations of Brexit.

Plus some had quite delusional ideas about EU needing us more than we need them and falling to our feet.
So bitter disappointment.

I can't think of anyone delivering Brexit that will be an advantage to Britain.

Unless we will have The Second Coming.

Blaming May for no plan? But there wasn't one to start with.
It was always "somehow we will wing it"...

People had no idea what they voted for.
It was " Build a Brexit " referendum for Leave.


----------



## KittenKong

This is supposed to be satire, but is the second Newsthump article in the past week I've seen that's closest to the truth.
















http://newsthump.com/2018/09/24/lab...-no-deal-brexit-and-catastrophic-brexit-deal/


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Wasn't it Cameron who said WWIII could break out in the event of a brexit vote?





stockwellcat. said:


> He actually said if Vote Leave Won there would be WW3.


No, he didn't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Otherwise it's more deluded crap.


Well at least we can agree on labour being deluded and full of it cr**


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> No, he didn't.


Oh did you miss this?

It was all over the news and then he denied it.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/brexit-david-cameron-predicts-world-war


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> This is supposed to be satire, but is the second Newsthump article in the past week I've seen that's closest to the truth.
> View attachment 369633
> View attachment 369634
> 
> 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/09/24/lab...-no-deal-brexit-and-catastrophic-brexit-deal/


Because all Labour cares about is getting in power and all Corbyn cares is being PM? He could not beat the @ strong and stable". !!!!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh did you miss this?
> 
> It was all over the news and then he denied it.
> 
> https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/brexit-david-cameron-predicts-world-war


No, I didn't miss it. I was extremely well aware of it, because people have been making this spun accusation ever since.

I heard and saw the quote at the time, and it still doesn't include the term World War 3. The quote you post - which doesn't mention WW3 - was reported by the Press as a prediction of WW3. It was the Press, not Cameron.

God knows I think the man was an idiot, but the reason he denied it was because he didn't say it. By all means point out where he uses the term.


----------



## KittenKong

Important seeing this is Pet Forums.

Yet some could argue this is an example of attempting public support for May's Chequers deal.....

Perhaps an election is looming?

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/pet-owners-face-three-month-wait-for/


----------



## KittenKong

Some of you here may think I'm being rather hard on Theresa May's Tory Party.

I'm happy to redress the balance.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Some of you here may think I'm being rather hard on Theresa May's Tory Party.
> 
> I'm happy to redress the balance.
> 
> View attachment 369636


And some people say that Corbyn and McCluskey are actually in favour of Leaving. Can't imagine what makes them think that!


----------



## stockwellcat.

She has a point....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remember if these clowns manage to pull off another GE and you are fed up with the current politics and you see this at the bottom of you ballot sheet please vote for


----------



## Jesthar

FB friend shared this from a Nigel Farage fan page of all places. Bit surprised given the demographic of the main audience!


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Remember if these clowns manage to pull off another GE and you are fed up with the current politics and you see this at the bottom of you ballot sheet please vote for
> View attachment 369647


It won't be. Only option is to spoil your ballot.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She has a point....
> 
> View attachment 369646


Bloody hypocritical if you ask me!
The same Maybot who stands by her unique plan already rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike as well as the EU, and quite rightly too.

She is back to square one too, only she cannot see it.

Then on the other hand it would be hypocritical of Corbyn to do the same save the CU pledge that avoids the NI border.

I WOULD vote for Corbyn and Abbott if they were pro true people's vote. As they're not, I will not but no other reason than that.

Then on the other hand I wouldn't vote for Theresa May if I had a gun pointed at my head under any circumstances.

What disgusting vile politicians the UK has. If only Brussels had the power to suspend Parliament and rid it of them all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hilary Benn this evening said that there is no majority in the House of Commons to justify a second referendum.

*REMAINER Hilary Benn admitted there is "no majority" in the House of Commons to justify calling for a second Brexit referendum despite Labour preparing to vote on a motion to back a new ballot.*

Hilary Benn claimed it is "hard to see" a majority of MPs coming out to back a second vote on Brexit as the end of the negotiation approaches.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> FB friend shared this from a Nigel Farage fan page of all places. Bit surprised given the demographic of the main audience!
> 
> View attachment 369645


Funny that.

Similar polls posted by Remain groups usually reveal the opposite with Leave well in front!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Hilary Benn this evening said that there is no majority in the House of Commons to justify a second referendum.
> 
> *REMAINER Hilary Benn admitted there is "no majority" in the House of Commons to justify calling for a second Brexit referendum despite Labour preparing to vote on a motion to back a new ballot.*
> 
> Hilary Benn claimed it is "hard to see" a majority of MPs coming out to back a second vote on Brexit as the end of the negotiation approaches.


How the hell does he know?
He may be regarded as a remainer as some still see Theresa May as one but me thinks the legacy of his arch Europe detesting dad Lord Sanstead, sorry AnthonyWedgewood-Benn, sorry Tony Benn is catching up with him!


----------



## Lurcherlad

TV's Travel Man was in Brussels:

A model village called Mini Europe had Palace of Westminster with a Brexit demo outside 

























Love the banner: Fromage not Farage!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Because all Labour cares about is getting in power and all Corbyn cares is being PM? He could not beat the @ strong and stable". !!!!


It's ironic that his pro Brexit stance has alienated very many pro EU traditional Labour supporters and voters, myself included. While I gave them the benefit of the doubt at the last General Election I will not do so again unless the manifesto states a support for a full people's vote.

What irritates me more than anything is when Labour lose the next election, politicians like Corbyn won't suffer. He'll be content with his salary. I sometimes wonder if he really wants to win an election by putting these obstacles in place, rejecting what would win back the support from myself and so many others.

This, "We must respect the will of the people" rhetoric is now irrelevant and dated seeing the Brexits on offer are nothing what was promised by the leave campaign apart from just leaving the European Union.

A flawed people's vote, should it come, would only give the option for May's already rejected Chequers plan or no deal!

I think it's more likely they will be another snap general election with May flogging her Chequers plan to the public with horror of what would happen if they don't. In other words, back me or else.

What some Brexiters call "Project Fear" in the past will be pailed into insignificance.


----------



## noushka05

*UK Gov last month: In no-deal, life-saving medical isotopes will be flown in.*

*UK Gov today: In no-deal, the planes will be grounded.*


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *UK Gov last month: In no-deal, life-saving medical isotopes will be flown in.*
> 
> *UK Gov today: In no-deal, the planes will be grounded.*


We know Brexit will be a disaster.

But this coming from the UK government suggests an attempt at blackmailing the public into supporting May's Chequers plan.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> She has a point....
> 
> View attachment 369646


A new referendum "... would take us back to square 1 - betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum"

This is pure politics, of course, because it is patently silly.

Firstly, we are repeatedly told that people 'knew what they were voting for' in 2016, and as far as their desired outcome - and only that - that is probably true. But at the time no-one knew what the outcome would _actually_ be. By the time of the new vote, they _would_ know. The question people would be asked is, "Is this what you wanted / imagined?" How is that, even remotely, a betrayal?

Secondly, there are two answers to that question; yes or no. Which then logically begs a second question. Do you still want to go ahead with Brexit? It's a common sense question, not a betrayal. It is based on more information than the original vote, so democratically it is far more sound. And it allows the People to change their minds if they want; which is also Democracy. Denying them the chance to do that is profoundly undemocratic.

And thirdly it would (largely) be the same people who would be voting. May's contention is that they might flock into the voting booths and 'betray' themselves!

The Tory right's resistance to a new referendum has nothing to do with democracy or 'betrayal', and everything to do with fear of democracy, primitive ideology, and self-interest.

(That wasn't aimed at you, SC, but at May! And it got a little more preachy than intended! )


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> We know Brexit will be a disaster.
> 
> But this coming from the UK government suggests an attempt at blackmailing the public into supporting May's Chequers plan.


Project Fear, innit!


----------



## SpringDance

Arnie83 said:


> A new referendum "... would take us back to square 1 - betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum"
> 
> This is pure politics, of course, because it is patently silly.
> 
> Firstly, we are repeatedly told that people 'knew what they were voting for' in 2016, and as far as their desired outcome - and only that - that is probably true. But at the time no-one knew what the outcome would _actually_ be. By the time of the new vote, they _would_ know. The question people would be asked is, "Is this what you wanted / imagined?" How is that, even remotely, a betrayal?
> 
> Secondly, there are two answers to that question; yes or no. Which then logically begs a second question. Do you still want to go ahead with Brexit? It's a common sense question, not a betrayal. It is based on more information than the original vote, so democratically it is far more sound. And it allows the People to change their minds if they want; which is also Democracy. Denying them the chance to do that is profoundly undemocratic.
> 
> And thirdly it would (largely) be the same people who would be voting. May's contention is that they might flock into the voting booths and 'betray' themselves!
> 
> The Tory right's resistance to a new referendum has nothing to do with democracy or 'betrayal', and everything to do with fear of democracy, primitive ideology, and self-interest.
> 
> (That wasn't aimed at you, SC, but at May! And it got a little more preachy than intended! )


Let's not also forget, that May held an extra general election when she thought the odds were in her favour (and as much as failed). Politics is all about getting things to work in your favour. I think the results of the second election, which May nearly lost, shows the change in feeling among the public.

Anyway... what do the leavers have to fear about a sencond referendum?? After all, it was such a clear win... <cough>


----------



## KittenKong

From the Gov UK site.
Oh for the good old days many will be saying two years from now.































Made me laugh out loud. Many who voted leave who travel abroad haven't thought of that.

I can just hear the conversation:

"You will have to take a driving test to drive here sir/madam".

Response would probably be, " I don't have to 'cos I'm British".

Seriously though, have haulage firms thought about this? Those who frequently drive on the continent can currently do so on their EU/UK passport. After Brexit day they may not be permitted to drive in, say France, without having to take a driving test there when the UK license is no longer recognised as an Europe wide document.


----------



## Elles

That seems really petty. How easy would it be for the Eu to agree to British driving licences being valid and British planes continuing to fly over Europe and vice versa. The Eu is one body speaking for 27 countries who agreed to their representing them. They’ve had 2 years to sort that kind of thing out. People keep saying why should the Eu treat Britain as a special case. For the same reason Britain should treat Europe as special. We’re neighbours and trading partners and this has never happened before. No one has left the Eu.

Are we saying that Europeans and European companies will be trapped in Britain, unable to drive or travel out? They’ll be arrested if they start up their vehicles, prosecuted for driving without a valid licence and their vehicles confiscated and crushed? Or will it just be us?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> That seems really petty. How easy would it be for the Eu to agree to British driving licences being valid and British planes continuing to fly over Europe and vice versa. The Eu is one body speaking for 27 countries who agreed to their representing them. They've had 2 years to sort that kind of thing out. People keep saying why should the Eu treat Britain as a special case. For the same reason Britain should treat Europe as special. We're neighbours and trading partners and this has never happened before. No one has left the Eu.


That's the thing, though - no deal means just that, no agreements of any type. And I'm not sure you can blame the EU for this one, as they have basically been saying the same thing (over and over) for two years - sort the absolute basics out first, then we talk about the nicities. It's not their fault our negotiators have spent the best part of two years trying to bypass laying the essential foundatations and move straight to picking out wallpaper and curtain fabric.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> That seems really petty. How easy would it be for the Eu to agree to British driving licences being valid and British planes continuing to fly over Europe and vice versa. The Eu is one body speaking for 27 countries who agreed to their representing them. They've had 2 years to sort that kind of thing out. People keep saying why should the Eu treat Britain as a special case. For the same reason Britain should treat Europe as special. We're neighbours and trading partners and this has never happened before. No one has left the Eu.
> 
> Are we saying that Europeans and European companies will be trapped in Britain, unable to drive or travel out? They'll be arrested if they start up their vehicles, prosecuted for driving without a valid licence and their vehicles confiscated and crushed? Or will it just be us?


But the UK will become as relevant as, say Brazil, to the EU on leaving.

As it is post Brexit a person from France might have to undertake the same protocol as someone from, say Brazil if they wish to come to the UK to live and work. It's been stressed, "No special treatment of those from the EU" by a right wing think tank.

As we once saw in Berlin, geography wouldn't matter.

A plausible solution such as the EEA and CU that works for Norway isn't deemed applicable for the UK. Why the hell not?

This is the age old problem of British arrogance:

Too good to be in the EU yet they demand special treatment from it on leaving and cry of lack of respect if they don't get it, even if most in the UK have rejected the proposals as well.

Remember: Who chose to leave?!


----------



## noushka05

Look at this lying tory trying to deceive the public but getting his ass handed to him on plate!










HI Daniel. I zoomed in on your photo, and couldn't see clearly - but - at this time of year, almost certainly, those lemons are imported from South Africa. They come in on a 0% tariff under the entry price system.

Here's some from Aldi.










And here's some lemons and limes from Sainsbury's. Again the lemons are coming in on a 0% tariff because we have an FTA with South Africa.
The limes are from Mexico.

They also come in on a 0% tariff, because we have an FTA with Mexico.










These Sainsbury oranges, also from South Africa, also on a 0% tariff because of the FTA with South Africa and the other SADC countries (o Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, and Swaziland[Eswatini]).










Some of the other oranges there, in Sainsbury's, are from Egypt.
We have an FTA with Egypt, so guess what?

These oranges come in on a 0% tariff.










See these kiwi fruit? They come from Chile and these also come in on a 0% tariff.
You know why?

Yep, you guessed it. we have an FTA with Chile.










These blueberries here. They're from Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is part of the ESA group of African countries.
So under the ESA FTA they enter the UK on a 0% tariff too.

Curiously there's no specific tariff entry for blueberries it is under "Fruit of the genus Vaccinium - Other".










See these pineapples?
They're from Costa Rica. We have an FTA with Costa Rica.

So they come in on a 0% tariff.










By the way, in case you think I'm making this us - Here's the tariff schedule for pineapples from Costa Rica. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0804300090?country=CR&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …










See these mangoes? They're from Peru. There's no tariff on mangoes, so it's imported on 0%, but
if there was a tariff it wouldn't apply to these mangoes because we have an FTA with Peru.










See these papayas? They come from Jamaica. The EU has an EPA with Jamaica.
In fact, it has an EPAs with most of the Carribean. Most of the Commonwealth.

Anyway - they come in on a 0% tariff wherever they're from.










See these passion fruit? Well, they're on a 0% tariff from wherever they're from, but if there was a tariff, these ones
would be exempt because they're from Colombia and we have an FTA with Colombia.










See these spuds?

They're from Israel, and they're imported on a 0% tariff from there










Here's the tariff schedule just to be sure. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0701909090?country=IL&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …

*Almost everything, if not everything, behind you in the fruit & veg section of TESCO comes in on a 0% tariff because of FTAs and Preference deals, or

because it's 0% anyway, or it's sourced from the EU.

In fact, this is true of most of our food imports.*










This is where our fruit comes from mostly the EU and countries where we have an FTA.










*

When we leave the EU we have to try to re-establish the lost EU FTAs, with 69 non-EU countries, concurrentl*y.


----------



## havoc

He's in a Tesco - the very organisation that screwed our own farmers/growers and put many out of business. He really couldn't get it more wrong!


----------



## Elles

Because emotions, sentiment and ‘why should they’ shouldn’t even come into it. Once Britain voted to leave politicians could have prepared for a smooth sailing exit. Especially as we didn’t leave immediately, but both agreed to 2 years to work on it. Of course Britain can’t expect all the advantages of membership of a private, exclusive club, but some things are advantageous to both sides and their people, that could be agreed in plenty of time. Such things that are acceptable regardless of where you are in the world, such as driving licences. No one from Britain or a European country need to pass a driving test elsewhere in order to drive. They have 2 years to negotiate an exit plan, driving licences and flight paths are clearly going to need sorting out within that time, unlike free trade deals, which would be entirely separate. Paying to trade would only be fair, how to pay is the issue. 

An actual ‘no deal’ isolating Britain from the rest of the World would hardly be possible these days, though we could become a second North Korea if that’s what people want.


----------



## Elles

I presume all these free trade agreements benefit poor farm workers in developing areas and small farmers in the U.K.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> it. Once Britain voted to leave politicians could have prepared for a smooth sailing exit.


They could (should) but May's beligerent attitude from the start means that ship has long sailed.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Because emotions, sentiment and 'why should they' shouldn't even come into it.


Tell that to our glorious leaders...



Elles said:


> Once Britain voted to leave politicians could have prepared for a smooth sailing exit. Especially as we didn't leave immediately, but both agreed to 2 years to work on it.


The two years is a standard part of Article 50. As far as I can judge, it's our politicians who have failed to prepare, possibly in the hope that if they keep repeating their demands then the EU will give in like a frustrated mother of a toddler who has been demanding sweeties every ten seconds for three hours despite refusing to eat their dinner.



Elles said:


> Of course Britain can't expect all the advantages of membership of a private, exclusive club, but some things are advantageous to both sides and their people, that could be agreed in plenty of time. Such things that are acceptable regardless of where you are in the world, such as driving licences. No one from Britain or a European country need to pass a driving test elsewhere in order to drive. They have 2 years to negotiate an exit plan, driving licences and flight paths are clearly going to need sorting out within that time, unlike free trade deals, which would be entirely separate. Paying to trade would only be fair, how to pay is the issue.


The way our glorious leaders are talking, you'd think they expected all the member benefits without any compromise on our side, though. The EU have been repeating that the same handful of key points need sorting first since we announced we were leaving, and so we have no grounds for acting like it is a big surprise and all the nasty EUs fault that progress hasn't been made. Sadly, I'm sure they will have some success spinning it that way though.



Elles said:


> An actual 'no deal' isolating Britain from the rest of the World would hardly be possible these days, though we could become a second North Korea if that's what people want.


It's what the No Deal mob seem to want, though...


----------



## Elles

How to solve the obesity crisis and pollution in one fell swoop. Make people’s driving licences invalid, ground all planes and prevent imports of food.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Look at this lying tory trying to deceive the public but getting his ass handed to him on plate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HI Daniel. I zoomed in on your photo, and couldn't see clearly - but - at this time of year, almost certainly, those lemons are imported from South Africa. They come in on a 0% tariff under the entry price system.
> 
> Here's some from Aldi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's some lemons and limes from Sainsbury's. Again the lemons are coming in on a 0% tariff because we have an FTA with South Africa.
> The limes are from Mexico.
> 
> They also come in on a 0% tariff, because we have an FTA with Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These Sainsbury oranges, also from South Africa, also on a 0% tariff because of the FTA with South Africa and the other SADC countries (o Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, and Swaziland[Eswatini]).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the other oranges there, in Sainsbury's, are from Egypt.
> We have an FTA with Egypt, so guess what?
> 
> These oranges come in on a 0% tariff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these kiwi fruit? They come from Chile and these also come in on a 0% tariff.
> You know why?
> 
> Yep, you guessed it. we have an FTA with Chile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These blueberries here. They're from Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is part of the ESA group of African countries.
> So under the ESA FTA they enter the UK on a 0% tariff too.
> 
> Curiously there's no specific tariff entry for blueberries it is under "Fruit of the genus Vaccinium - Other".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these pineapples?
> They're from Costa Rica. We have an FTA with Costa Rica.
> 
> So they come in on a 0% tariff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, in case you think I'm making this us - Here's the tariff schedule for pineapples from Costa Rica. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0804300090?country=CR&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these mangoes? They're from Peru. There's no tariff on mangoes, so it's imported on 0%, but
> if there was a tariff it wouldn't apply to these mangoes because we have an FTA with Peru.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these papayas? They come from Jamaica. The EU has an EPA with Jamaica.
> In fact, it has an EPAs with most of the Carribean. Most of the Commonwealth.
> 
> Anyway - they come in on a 0% tariff wherever they're from.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these passion fruit? Well, they're on a 0% tariff from wherever they're from, but if there was a tariff, these ones
> would be exempt because they're from Colombia and we have an FTA with Colombia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these spuds?
> 
> They're from Israel, and they're imported on a 0% tariff from there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the tariff schedule just to be sure. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0701909090?country=IL&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …
> 
> *Almost everything, if not everything, behind you in the fruit & veg section of TESCO comes in on a 0% tariff because of FTAs and Preference deals, or
> 
> because it's 0% anyway, or it's sourced from the EU.
> 
> In fact, this is true of most of our food imports.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where our fruit comes from mostly the EU and countries where we have an FTA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> When we leave the EU we have to try to re-establish the lost EU FTAs, with 69 non-EU countries, concurrentl*y.


And _that's_ why I like facts!


----------



## Elles

Why is it when a politician changes their mind from remain to leave, it means they were lying, but the people are allowed to change their mind from leave to remain without accusations?


----------



## cheekyscrip

I don’t understand “ respect vote of the people “ so no second referendum. Who stops you from respecting the results of second referendum?
At least now people have idea what they are choosing?
If still want Brexit then cannot grumble about the consequences as now they are pretty obvious?

So if those in power on any side, blue or red don’t want referendum - mean they don’t want to give the choice to the people, bye democracy.
Or they are convinced majority of voters will not want Brexit - then they clearly disrespect the will of the people.

Plus saying people voted for Brexit is a lie.
Only just over half voted for Leave!!!
Many more people did not vote before because they couldn’t not, but now they can.
Many did not go , did not know what to choose not knowing what to expect, fair enough.
They know more now.
So let people choose, not between bad , mad and ugly, but the real choice.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> How to solve the obesity crisis and pollution in one fell swoop. Make people's driving licences invalid, ground all planes and prevent imports of food.


Solves the care for elderly problem as medicines could be in short supply.

Back to nature.

I remember the days of food tickets in Poland... 
I know how to replace soap, make own chocolate not mention the common currency during rationing: vodka.


----------



## kimthecat

SpringDance said:


> Let's not also forget, that May held an extra general election when she thought the odds were in her favour (and as much as failed). Politics is all about getting things to work in your favour. I think the results of the second election, which May nearly lost, shows the change in feeling among the public.


I think that was more due to a surge in Corbyn's popularity and his elections promises /lies rather than a change of mind about Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I think that was more due to a surge in Corbyn's popularity and his elections promises /lies rather than a change of mind about Brexit.


I think it was also due to the most appalling performance by a Tory leader that I've ever seen in a general election!

What is difficult to argue is that seeing her majority disappear was any sort of endorsement by the voters of her hard Brexit promises.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Why is it when a politician changes their mind from remain to leave, it means they were lying, but the people are allowed to change their mind from leave to remain without accusations?


To be fair on that one it's because those who voted remain did know what they were voting for because it's exactly what we had whereas those who voted leave now have more of an idea of the realities. There never was this Brexit that 'we all voted for' because the details didn't exist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

What's wrong with this photo?








It is so blurry. If you actually look only 7 people have their hands up. So Labour insist that the delegates (all 7 of them) voted for a second referendum whilst those that voted leave in the Labour party kept their hands down as they feel betrayed.

Everyone with their hand up look so miserable.

Those that feel let down by the Labour Party you can always vote for No Deal ~ Mays Brexit to prevent the looney party getting into power (Labour).


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Why is it when a politician changes their mind from remain to leave, it means they were lying, but the people are allowed to change their mind from leave to remain without accusations?


It was the instance May changed her tone, becoming a rampant Brexiter as soon as she became PM.

Yes, people including politicians can change their minds.

It's only Joe Public who're not allowed to.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> What's wrong with this photo?
> View attachment 369717
> 
> It is so blurry. If you actually look only 7 people have their hands up. So Labour insist that the delegates (all 7 of them) voted for a second referendum whilst those that voted leave in the Labour party kept their hands down as they feel betrayed.
> 
> Everyone with their hand up look so miserable.
> 
> Those that feel let down by the Labour Party you can always vote for No Deal ~ Mays Brexit to prevent the looney party getting into power (Labour).


Source and datr of the photo?
I didn't see Sir Kier's speech but heard it on the radio and the applause he received when he said a PV must include the option to remain. I think they were more than seven people.

Then of course the BBC could be accused of tampering with it by adding canned applause!


----------



## Elles

Do people want a second referendum because they think enough people have changed their minds, or are new to voting and will vote remain? 

People are quite generously saying they would accept the result this time. I bet they will, if it goes their way.

You do know that no one can actually win?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Do people want a second referendum because they think enough people have changed their minds, or are new to voting and will vote remain?
> 
> People are quite generously saying they would accept the result this time. I bet they will, if it goes their way.
> 
> You do know that no one can actually win?


Of there might be winners, name but few: Russia, China, private doctors, non EU immigrants....
Spain may get a foothold in Gibraltar and they are gloating already... seen Spanish press?


----------



## Elles

Russia, China etc aren’t voters. I mean out of Remain and leave voters. No one can win now.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Russia, China etc aren't voters. I mean out of Remain and leave voters. No one can win now.


No. Brexit will hit all not so ultra rich clever clogs.
Jobs will be lost evenly , cost of living will go up for al etc...
We are all losers in this game, except few ambitious politicians on both sides who want to get higher, no matter what.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Seeing as everyone seems to like polls here are two you might be interested in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Source and datr of the photo?


Labour Conference at Keir Starmers speech today.


> Then of course the BBC could be accused of tampering with it by adding canned applause!


No not BBC photo.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Seeing as everyone seems to like polls here are two you might be interested in.
> 
> View attachment 369719
> 
> 
> View attachment 369720


Guess you'd expect that from a pro leave source. The amount of people who'd blame Theresa May is quite high though!

The Sun letters page today contained many on the subject, "How dare the EU insult our PM", you'd expect that seeing the readers get their news from the paper.

But only a few days before they were insulting their PM by condemning the very same issue the EU rejected!!!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour Conference at Keir Starmers speech today.
> No not BBC photo.


I meant which website or FB page.

Interesting developments today though. We'll see if Corbyn keeps his word now the motion's been passed.

I'm not optimistic to tell you the truth.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Seeing as everyone seems to like polls here are two you might be interested in.
> 
> View attachment 369719
> 
> 
> View attachment 369720


M
Yes, EU is to blame.
They let us go !!!

Oh, they must pay for it!!!

Our foot will never touch this evil land.

Mostly because we will need visas, we will not be able to work or study there and not to mention those grounded planes and boarded tunnel...

We will build new, better North Korea to spite the EU!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Do people want a second referendum because they think enough people have changed their minds, or are new to voting and will vote remain?
> 
> People are quite generously saying they would accept the result this time. I bet they will, if it goes their way.
> 
> You do know that no one can actually win?


No one has won though seeing the brexit delivered is not the one promised by the leave campaign. No £350m for the NHS, no question of leaving the SM, Turkey are about to join as some examples.

Of course they are some like SWC who want out regardless of any campaign in as much I wanted to stay in without any influence from the remain campaign.

I can understand SWC being irritated by suggestions he was conned by the leave campaign as much as I would be if people suggested I voted remain due to "Project Fear" and the pathetic remain campaign.

But very many did including people I know with promises such as what was on the red bus.

So yes, now the goalposts have been significantly altered, people should have the right to be asked again.

Leave would probably win it on The Sun's insistance but at least people will know they could lose their jobs and the likes that the original leave campaign never mentioned.


----------



## Elles

That’s what I mean when I say that no one can win. It doesn’t matter whether there’s a second vote or not, stay in or leave, we will all have lost, given the mess that’s been unnecessarily created.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Russia, China etc aren't voters. I mean out of Remain and leave voters. No one can win now.


if we have a Chequers deal or no deal we've all lost.


----------



## noushka05

HAHAA

*Breaking:* Captain of the Titanic makes bristling speech condemning iceberg's lack of movement. 
Reassures passengers she will forge ahead regardless.


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 12h12 hours ago

*
Brilliant news! With @UKLabour now backing a #PeoplesVote, our divided country is coming together to demand democracy.

Come on @theresa_may - it's not exactly going well is it? Time to put your trust in the public.*


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I think that was more due to a surge in Corbyn's popularity and his elections promises /lies rather than a change of mind about Brexit.


It was probably a bit of both. Many people are desperate for progressive policies after decades of destructive neoliberalism. Many know if we brexit it makes persuing those policies so much harder if not impossible. His election promises weren't lies they were perfectly doable - within the EU.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> we will need visas,


Correct


> we will not be able to work or study there


Absolute tosh.


> We will build new, better North Korea to spite the EU!!!


Absolute tosh again.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> That's what I mean when I say that no one can win. It doesn't matter whether there's a second vote or not, stay in or leave, we will all have lost, given the mess that's been unnecessarily created.


Whereas I agree wholeheartedly it's a right mess and could have been better it could never have been good, never could be what everyone wanted or expected. Unlike an election the different campaigns were not run by anyone needing to back up their promises. That's why wild claims could be made with no worry of any repercussions on those who made them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> if we have a Chequers deal or no deal we've all lost.


Rubbish.


----------



## havoc

How do you know it’s rubbish SWC? It may or may not be but are you the one with a crystal ball?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 12h12 hours ago
> 
> *
> Brilliant news! With @UKLabour now backing a #PeoplesVote, our divided country is coming together to demand democracy.
> 
> Come on @theresa_may - it's not exactly going well is it? Time to put your trust in the public.*


Shame there is only one MP in Parliament for the Green Party, herself.

Theresa May is doing a good job. Would like to see Caroline Lucas or anyone else do Theresa Mays job at the moment.

The numbers don't stack up in Parliament. If you add 325 Conservative and DUP members that would back Theresa May's no deal brexit and let's not forget those MP's in the Labour party who have been cast aside who voted leave I think the deal will sale through Parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> How do you know it's rubbish SWC? It may or may not be but are you the one with a crystal ball?


American Students, Canadian Students, Malaysian Students, Indian Students, Australian Students, Morroccan Students, Mexican Students study and work in EU/Europe. They get something called a visa just like UK citizens will have to. It is tosh we will not be able to study or work in the EU. It is you guys who think so negatively about things that you are blinded by all the moaning you do


----------



## havoc

Where was the original comment specifically about students? Why leave out work?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Where was the original comment specifically about students? Why leave out work?


Nit picking are you?

You know that citizens from countries outside of the EU/Europe can get visas as well to work. There are many companies in Europe that are American for instance (This is an example) with American and EU workers. I used to work for one. They aren't banned because they aren't part of the EU. What an utterly ridduculous comment that UK citizens will not be able to study or work in the EU/Europe.

Fear Mongering is what @cheekyscrip is doing suggesting that.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> What an utterly ridduculous comment that UK citizens will not be able to study or work in the EU.


Many students will not be able to study in the EU because they won't be able to afford it. They will be foreign students and foreign students pay more from their own pockets. Admittedly it would be better worded as only rich kids will be able to study in the EU.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Rubbish.


We know no deal means the loss of millions of jobs, catastrophe for our NHS, roll back of legislation which protects our environment, workers rights and so on.

And May says a Canada style deal would be even worse 

_
NEW A Canada-style trade deal with the EU after Brexit would be worse than a 'no deal' because it would break up the UK, Theresa May has said. 
Asked whether a "no deal is better than Canada plus", Mrs May told reporters: "I have always said that no deal is better than a bad deal _(via Christopher Hope)


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> n.
> 
> Leave would probably win it on The Sun's insistence


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Shame there is only one MP in Parliament for the Green Party, herself.
> 
> Theresa May is doing a good job. Would like to see Caroline Lucas or anyone else do Theresa Mays job at the moment.
> 
> The numbers don't stack up in Parliament. If you add 325 Conservative and DUP members that would back Theresa May's no deal brexit and let's not forget those MP's in the Labour party who have been cast aside who voted leave I think the deal will sale through Parliament.


Theresa May is dragging this country over a cliff and the reputation of this country through the dirt . Did you hear that cringy jingoistic speech after the EU rejected chequers? Good grief.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We know no deal means the loss of millions of jobs, catastrophe for our NHS, roll back of legislation which protects our environment, workers rights and so on.
> 
> And May says a Canada style deal would be even worse
> 
> _
> NEW A Canada-style trade deal with the EU after Brexit would be worse than a 'no deal' because it would break up the UK, Theresa May has said.
> Asked whether a "no deal is better than Canada plus", Mrs May told reporters: "I have always said that no deal is better than a bad deal _(via Christopher Hope)


Loss of jobs where?
Yes a few businesses have got itchy feet and left the UK. There choice. Doesn't exclude UK workers working for them in the EU.

Regarding Job Losses in the UK. What you fail to verify and take notice of the millions of jobs that have been created in the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Theresa May is dragging this country over a cliff and the reputation of this country through the dirt . Did you hear that cringy jingoistic speech after the EU rejected chequers? Good grief.


I heard her reasserting herself.

She is doing the right thing preparing the UK for a no deal. The Impasse is the way of saying your turn to make some concessions to the EU. Plus the UK is not going to be treated the way the EU leaders treated May at the Salzburg Summit. Remain supporting MP's where disgusted at the way the EU leaders treated May/The UK and said they will back a no deal (Stephen Crab said this). Remember they where remain supporting MP's.

May is pushing the Chequers Plan because she knows no one will back it and no deal is the only other option on the table. Labour can say what they want but they have leave supporters in their party as well who have been ignored and Labour aren't in Government or have a majority in Parliament.

Don't forget Labour want to leave the EU as well under there terms.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Another poll for you...


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


>


Murdoch has poisoned politics here, in the USA and in Australia. His media outlets manipulate and undermine democracy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Murdoch has poisoned politics here, in the USA and in Australia. His media outlets manipulate and undermine democracy.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Loss of jobs where?
> Yes a few businesses have got itchy feet and left the UK. There choice. Doesn't exclude UK workers working for them in the EU.
> 
> Regarding Job Losses in the UK. What you fail to verify and take notice of the millions of jobs that have been created in the UK.


This governments *own *analysis.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

No deal Brexit: 2,800,000 fewer jobs £158bn loss per year

Trade agreement Brexit (outside the single market): 1,750,000 fewer jobs £99bn loss per year

Soft Brexit (EEA & single market): 700,000 fewer jobs £39bn loss per year

Remain in EU: No impact on jobs No £ loss per year


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The Impasse is the way of saying your turn to make some concessions to the EU.


May I ask what concessions you want the EU to make?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> May I ask what concessions you want the EU to make?


I don't personally. Personally I just want the UK out now so No Deal will do. It was always going to be this anyway.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> May is pushing the Chequers Plan because she knows no one will back it and no deal is the only other option on the table


You said it!

_
Chequers, Canad*a*, Norway are dead. No-deal is 'disaster capitalism' at national level.

Here are the options. _


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


He has alot to say for a self proclaimed expert but I do not need him to speek for me.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> May is pushing the Chequers Plan because she knows no one will back it and no deal is the only other option on the table


I'm a little confused: You have often used May's quotes saying that there won't be a GE or a new referendum in evidence that these things will not happen. But when she repeats over and over that she doesn't want a No Deal Brexit, why do you not believe her then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm a little confused: You have often used May's quotes saying that there won't be a GE or a new referendum in evidence that these things will not happen. But when she repeats over and over that she doesn't want a No Deal Brexit, why do you not believe her then?


There is going to be a no deal though.

No GE
No second referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't personally. Personally I just want the UK out now so No Deal will do. It was always going to be this anyway.


Okay. When you interpret May as saying it is the turn of the EU to make concessions, what concessions do you think she wants the EU to make?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> There is going to be a no deal though.
> 
> No GE
> No second referendum.


But May keeps saying she doesn't want No Deal. Is she lying?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But May keeps saying she doesn't want No Deal. Is she lying?


She seems to be preparing for one.

Slashing Corporate Business Tax to 17% when we leave the EU making the UK the lowest in the G8. Attracting business to the UK. She said that it will be down to Business in the USA today when we leave the EU.

The EU panicked yesterday and the day before with the suggestion that TM is talking about a trade deal to DT when she is in the USA. The Trade Deal might be signed on the day we leave the EU or within a few weeks/months.

May seems to be preparing for a no deal in my view. So you might accuse her of lying.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> She seems to be preparing for one.
> 
> Slashing Corporate Business Tax to 17% when we leave the EU making the UK the lowest in the G8. Attracting business to the UK. She said that it will be down to Business in the USA today when we leave the EU.
> 
> The EU panicked yesterday and the day before with the suggestion that TM is talking about a trade deal to DT when she is in the USA. The Trade Deal might be signed on the day we leave the EU or within a few weeks/months.
> 
> May seems to be preparing for a no deal in my view. So you might accuse her of lying.


And you think this is good news?? :Wideyed Blimey.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just because some Remains say that a second referendum is needed doesn't mean it will happen.

Just because Sir Keir Stamer and Chuka Ummoaner say that more people are wanting to remain doesn't mean they do.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> She seems to be preparing for one.
> 
> Slashing Corporate Business Tax to 17% when we leave the EU making the UK the lowest in the G8. Attracting business to the UK. She said that it will be down to Business in the USA today when we leave the EU.
> 
> The EU panicked yesterday and the day before with the suggestion that TM is talking about a trade deal to DT when she is in the USA. The Trade Deal might be signed on the day we leave the EU or within a few weeks/months.
> 
> May seems to be preparing for a no deal in my view. So you might accuse her of lying.


And the concessions she wants from the EU to prevent that happening are what?

A trade deal with the USA is years away unless we simply roll over and accept all the demands that Trump & co make of us.

I didn't see anything about the EU panicking over the last couple of days, but it sounds interesting. What happened, exactly?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And you think this is good news?? :Wideyed Blimey.


Oh yes 
Excellent news bringing business to the UK creating jobs.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You have to remember like the millionaires/billionaires moaning they have invested interests in the EU and that's why they want to UK to remain.


What invested interests do Starmer and Umunna have in the EU?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> What invested interests to Starmer and Umunna have in the EU?


Big fat pensions.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Big fat pensions.


Starmer and Umunna have EU pensions? Don't you have to work for the EU to get one of those?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Starmer and Umunna have EU pensions? Don't you have to work for the EU to get one of those?


They do don't they?
We are still in the EU aren't we? :Hilarious
We haven't left yet have we?


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Look at this lying tory trying to deceive the public but getting his ass handed to him on plate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HI Daniel. I zoomed in on your photo, and couldn't see clearly - but - at this time of year, almost certainly, those lemons are imported from South Africa. They come in on a 0% tariff under the entry price system.
> 
> Here's some from Aldi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's some lemons and limes from Sainsbury's. Again the lemons are coming in on a 0% tariff because we have an FTA with South Africa.
> The limes are from Mexico.
> 
> They also come in on a 0% tariff, because we have an FTA with Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These Sainsbury oranges, also from South Africa, also on a 0% tariff because of the FTA with South Africa and the other SADC countries (o Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, and Swaziland[Eswatini]).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the other oranges there, in Sainsbury's, are from Egypt.
> We have an FTA with Egypt, so guess what?
> 
> These oranges come in on a 0% tariff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these kiwi fruit? They come from Chile and these also come in on a 0% tariff.
> You know why?
> 
> Yep, you guessed it. we have an FTA with Chile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These blueberries here. They're from Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is part of the ESA group of African countries.
> So under the ESA FTA they enter the UK on a 0% tariff too.
> 
> Curiously there's no specific tariff entry for blueberries it is under "Fruit of the genus Vaccinium - Other".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these pineapples?
> They're from Costa Rica. We have an FTA with Costa Rica.
> 
> So they come in on a 0% tariff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, in case you think I'm making this us - Here's the tariff schedule for pineapples from Costa Rica. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0804300090?country=CR&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these mangoes? They're from Peru. There's no tariff on mangoes, so it's imported on 0%, but
> if there was a tariff it wouldn't apply to these mangoes because we have an FTA with Peru.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these papayas? They come from Jamaica. The EU has an EPA with Jamaica.
> In fact, it has an EPAs with most of the Carribean. Most of the Commonwealth.
> 
> Anyway - they come in on a 0% tariff wherever they're from.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these passion fruit? Well, they're on a 0% tariff from wherever they're from, but if there was a tariff, these ones
> would be exempt because they're from Colombia and we have an FTA with Colombia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See these spuds?
> 
> They're from Israel, and they're imported on a 0% tariff from there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the tariff schedule just to be sure. https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/0701909090?country=IL&day=23&month=9&year=2018#import …
> 
> *Almost everything, if not everything, behind you in the fruit & veg section of TESCO comes in on a 0% tariff because of FTAs and Preference deals, or
> 
> because it's 0% anyway, or it's sourced from the EU.
> 
> In fact, this is true of most of our food imports.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where our fruit comes from mostly the EU and countries where we have an FTA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> When we leave the EU we have to try to re-establish the lost EU FTAs, with 69 non-EU countries, concurrentl*y.





havoc said:


> He's in a Tesco - the very organisation that screwed our own farmers/growers and put many out of business. He really couldn't get it more wrong!





Arnie83 said:


> And _that's_ why I like facts!


From the pro tory Spectator of all places.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Loss of jobs where?
> Yes a few businesses have got itchy feet and left the UK. There choice. Doesn't exclude UK workers working for them in the EU.
> 
> Regarding Job Losses in the UK. What you fail to verify and take notice of the millions of jobs that have been created in the UK.


Don't forget when we leave some companies are going to pull out of the UK when we leave, we already have big companies on short time, one step maybe towards closing.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding Job Losses in the UK. What you fail to verify and take notice of the millions of jobs that have been created in the UK.


Since the mid 1980s unemployment figures have only included those claiming Unemployment Benefit which lasted for six months. If you're unfortunate enough not to have found a job you moved onto Supplementary Benefit and off the unemployment register.

Sorry, but I refuse to consider zero hour contracts as a proper job. I've been there and done that. You could work 40 hours one week, only 3 the next or not at all.

Tony Blair's administration contributed to me finding a permanent position which I'll forever thank him for.



stockwellcat. said:


> I heard her reasserting herself.
> 
> She is doing the right thing preparing the UK for a no deal. The Impasse is the way of saying your turn to make some concessions to the EU. Plus the UK is not going to be treated the way the EU leaders treated May at the Salzburg Summit. Remain supporting MP's where disgusted at the way the EU leaders treated May/The UK and said they will back a no deal (Stephen Crab said this). Remember they where remain supporting MP's.
> 
> May is pushing the Chequers Plan because she knows no one will back it and no deal is the only other option on the table. Labour can say what they want but they have leave supporters in their party as well who have been ignored and Labour aren't in Government or have a majority in Parliament.
> 
> Don't forget Labour want to leave the EU as well under there terms.


Sorry, but a lot of this is bulls**t. MP's rallying to support their leader despite themselves rejecting her stupid plan, warning her the EU would be too. Only it was an insult for them to do so. You couldn't make it up!

I don't believe for a minute May actually wants no deal. I know she bleated, "No deal is better than a bad deal", but wasn't that to warn the EU who of course needed Britain more than Britain needed the EU to grovel to her or else they'll walk away?

Ask yourself this, why is the Gov.UK site giving " project fear" in the event of no deal? Why are the likes of her yes man Dominic Rabb, who has never been a remainer, warning of stockpiling food and medicines?

Think about it. In a modern civilised society, the warnings of such shortages was never highlighted in the 2016 remain campaign!

May is attempting to win over public support for her plan, she wants to be seen as a saviour of the UK, the one who averted it from disaster. Blackmail in other words.

She's nothing more than seriously deluded and dangerous. I'm sure Adolf Hitler for one employed similar tactics.

Then of course she could indeed be vouching for no deal by selling an unworkable plan already rejected by most remainders and Brexiters in the UK in order to blame the EU. They've done this before with the Poll Tax in blaming Labour councils for higher rates which backfired badly. After all it was that government who implemented it!

But I believe May will continue with her plan and of course "project fear" in an attempt to win public support behind her through fear.

Have you seen the state of May lately, she's looking increasingly ill and delusional.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry but over 2 years of listening and reading what remainers have to say and then their line of questioning makes them think they are superior to leave voters. You aren't. I voted leave. Get over it. I will do it again if asked the question again and again. 

If I was asked to vote on Theresa May's Chequers Deal, Rees Moggs Canada Deal or Jermey's Labour Brexit Idea or No Deal. I would vote No Deal (alot of other people would choose this option to including remainers).


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I don't believe for a minute May actually wants no deal. I know she bleated, "No deal is better than a bad deal"


Well she is now saying No Deal is better than a Canada Style Deal. You obviously missed that yesterday.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Let's sum up the Labour stance on Brexit shall we.

Corbyn, McDonnell and some other of the MP's want to have a General Election so they can on a whim win. After they win they want to implement Labour's Brexit.

Keir Stamer yesterday defied this and said all options are on the table.

Look very split to me with no resolve.

Let's not forget Corbyn supporters have avoided this years Labour Conference according to the news. I wonder why?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> A trade deal with the USA is years away unless we simply roll over and accept all the demands that Trump & co make of us.


Isn't that why she dashed off to cosy up to Trump so quickly? She thought she was going to come back with a big stick to beat the rest of the EU with. That went well


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She seems to be preparing for one.
> 
> Slashing Corporate Business Tax to 17% when we leave the EU making the UK the lowest in the G8. Attracting business to the UK. She said that it will be down to Business in the USA today when we leave the EU.
> 
> The EU panicked yesterday and the day before with the suggestion that TM is talking about a trade deal to DT when she is in the USA. The Trade Deal might be signed on the day we leave the EU or within a few weeks/months.
> 
> May seems to be preparing for a no deal in my view. So you might accuse her of lying.


But that isn't new though is it? Trump was always going to be the saviour of a post Brexit UK but they'll be a very huge price to pay. Not only inferior food standards compared to what the UK is used to and the take over of the NHS by US insurance firms. They're going to make a killing out of a post Brexit UK. America First remember.

But wouldn't it be funny if Trump insisted they ditch May and impose Boris Johnson as PM as a condition of a "saviour" trade deal?!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh yes
> Excellent news bringing business to the UK creating jobs.


If you believe this then you're ignoring all the evidence. You can't want to understand of the implications of such a deal.

I remember a pro leave voter on here saying one of the reasons they were voting leave was because they feared TTIP . What this trade deal means for us is TTIP on steroids. We were warned.

*2 Feb 2017*
*How corporate dark money is taking power on both sides of the Atlantic*








George Monbiot
*A secretive network of business lobbyists has long held sway in US politics. Now their allies in the UK government are planning a Brexit that plays into their hands*

Maybe George Monbiot is clairvoyant?:Shifty https://www.theguardian.com/comment...c-lobbyists-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

Greenpeace Unearthed >>>

*17.02.2018* https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...lly-published-plans-us-uk-shadow-trade-talks/

*A hard-Brexit think tank accidentally published its plans for US-UK 'shadow trade talks*


A transatlantic network of conservative think tanks accidentally published its secret plans to influence US-UK trade negotiations, _Unearthed _can reveal.

*Documents outline plans to form an "unprecedented" coalition of hard-Brexit and libertarian think tanks, which will call for Britain to ditch strict EU safety standards - including rules on food and pharmaceuticals - in order to secure a sweeping US-UK trade deal. *

Tue *18 Sep 2018 *

*Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal*
*Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire*



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

*Liam Fox is Selling Off British Values*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you believe this then you're ignoring all the evidence. You can't want to understand of the implications of such a deal.
> 
> I remember a pro leave voter on here saying one of the reasons they were voting leave was because they feared TTIP . What this trade deal means for us is TTIP on steroids. We were warned.
> 
> *2 Feb 2017*
> *How corporate dark money is taking power on both sides of the Atlantic*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Monbiot
> *A secretive network of business lobbyists has long held sway in US politics. Now their allies in the UK government are planning a Brexit that plays into their hands*
> 
> Maybe George Monbiot is clairvoyant?:Shifty https://www.theguardian.com/comment...c-lobbyists-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
> 
> Greenpeace Unearthed >>>
> 
> *17.02.2018* https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...lly-published-plans-us-uk-shadow-trade-talks/
> 
> *A hard-Brexit think tank accidentally published its plans for US-UK 'shadow trade talks*
> 
> 
> A transatlantic network of conservative think tanks accidentally published its secret plans to influence US-UK trade negotiations, _Unearthed _can reveal.
> 
> *Documents outline plans to form an "unprecedented" coalition of hard-Brexit and libertarian think tanks, which will call for Britain to ditch strict EU safety standards - including rules on food and pharmaceuticals - in order to secure a sweeping US-UK trade deal. *
> 
> Tue *18 Sep 2018 *
> 
> *Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal*
> Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs
> 
> *Liam Fox is Selling Off British Values*


I see there crystal balls are working over time with project fear.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry but over 2 years of listening and reading what remainers have to say and then their line of questioning makes them think they are superior to leave voters. You aren't. I voted leave. Get over it. I will do it again if asked the question again and again.
> 
> If I was asked to vote on Theresa May's Chequers Deal, Rees Moggs Canada Deal or Jermey's Labour Brexit Idea or No Deal. I would vote No Deal (alot of other people would choose this option to including remainers).


Did I ever consider myself superior?

Might surprise you to know I have friends who voted and still back leave. We are able to agree to disagree and respect our individual viewpoints.

But one thing I'll certainly say is I don't consider myself to be superior to anyone else because of my country of birth (England),.

Nor do I consider myself to be inferior to the monarchy or any politician.

We all came into this world in more or less the same way. I have no time for this cast and social class rubbish.

Then, now you mention it perhaps there is one form superior to all of us. Our pets who bring us much love, dedication and companionship and will never let us down.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> I see there crystal balls are working over time with project fear.


Are you really convinced that everything is going to be better for everybody?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I see there crystal balls are working over time with project fear.


You dismiss evidence you dont want hear as project fear just as trump and his followers dismiss facts as fake news. This is seriously bad for for democracy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This piece is from the Gaurdian....

















https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/25/has-labours-stance-on-brexit-changed

In my opinion those in Labour seats that voted leave will probably not vote for Labour in any General Election. Labour has achieved turning voters off voting for them.

See nothing from the Sun newspaper @KittenKong


----------



## noushka05

F*aisal Islam*‏Verified account @faisalislam
Also highly significant that Starmer in his speech said for first time Labour would vote against a so-called "Blind Brexit" which is a plausible direction of travel - signing a deal that doesn't nail down future relationship


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I see there crystal balls are working over time with project fear.


Do you believe the warnings regarding No Deal in the papers that the government are releasing? They are just as dire as the warnings of businesses and other experts.

If you don't believe them, why would the government be engaging in scaremongering when May is trying to push us toward the No Deal that these warnings tell us could be so bad?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Do you believe the warnings regarding No Deal in the papers that the government are releasing? They are just as dire as the warnings of businesses and other experts.
> 
> If you don't believe them, why would the government be engaging in scaremongering when May is trying to push us toward the No Deal that these warnings tell us could be so bad?


Tell me then why she is preparing for a no deal Brexit and releasing preperation papers on the .gov website?

No Deal is better than a bad deal (Chequers being the bad deal - this soundbite should be No Deal is better than Theresa May's deal)

No deal is better than a Canada Style Deal (JRM's proposed deal).

Even remainers say they would vote for no deal.


----------



## Arnie83

View attachment 369719


I find this a little depressing, and another powerful reason why referendums should be avoided whenever possible.

The most important decision for the economic future of the UK in nearly half a century, with the amount of damage depending entirely on the detailed outcome of the negotiations, and over 50% say they're not interested in those details. What _are_ they interested in; the next eviction from the Big Brother house? And we've let these people determined our children's future? Good grief.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> View attachment 369719
> 
> 
> I find this a little depressing, and another powerful reason why referendums should be avoided whenever possible.
> 
> The most important decision for the economic future of the UK in nearly half a century, with the amount of damage depending entirely on the detailed outcome of the negotiations, and over 50% say they're not interested in those details. What _are_ they interested in; the next eviction from the Big Brother house? And we've let these people determined our children's future? Good grief.


Did you see the othet graph about people blaming the EU for the current state of the negotiations?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Tell me then why she is preparing for a no deal Brexit and releasing preperation papers on the .gov website?


*So do you believe the warnings in those preparation papers?*

They are doing so because a) if we don't look like we are preparing for a No Deal, the EU will know that we are going to accept a deal, which removes just about the only bargaining chip we've had since the start. (Despite the assurances that "We hold all the cards") and b) because the Mogglodytes in the Commons made a fuss about us not looking serious about a No Deal unless we actually started to prepare, even though they've rubbished the Government warnings ever since.



stockwellcat. said:


> No Deal is better than a bad deal (Chequers being the bad deal - this soundbite should be No Deal is better than Theresa May's deal)


We'll have to see what the proposed deal ends up as, but economically No Deal is still the worst.



stockwellcat. said:


> No deal is better than a Canada Style Deal (JRM's proposed deal).


JRM's deal? The Canada option has been on the EU table since day 1.

That aside, it is basically a Free Trade Agreement. No Deal would see us trading on WTO terms.

Why do you think every country in the world negotiates Free Trade Deals in preference to WTO terms? And what logic therefore makes No Deal better than a Free Trade Deal?



stockwellcat. said:


> Even remainers say they would vote for no deal.


Source?

There is no Parliamentary majority for No Deal. If it was put in front of them, sufficient Tories would rebel to vote it down.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Did you see the othet graph about people blaming the EU for the current state of the negotiations?


Yes. For a start, all the EU has done is stick to their red line about not allowing cherry-picking. May and the other leading Brexiteers are blaming them for not making concessions on their one red line, which seems not only a little stupid, but also the pot calling the kettle black.

But mainly, when you ask members of one tribe whether they are to blame for things going badly, or whether the 'opposing' tribe is to blame, they will blame the opposing tribe whether they know what they're talking about or not. And since over 50% (in the other poll) admitted they had no interest in the details, I thought the blame game poll was a complete waste of time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Source?


kk


> There is no Parliamentary majority for No Deal. If it was put in front of them, sufficient Tories would rebel to vote it down.


So you tell us.
The Tories are already whipping the remain MP's in the Tory pary into line.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May is doing a good job. Would like to see Caroline Lucas or anyone else do Theresa Mays job at the moment.


Yes, she would end this Brexit farce as is it, reject the referendum through cheating or at least guarantee a proper PV with the remain option.

You didn't think Theresa May was doing a good job only a couple of weeks ago! You appeared against her Chequers plan as much as I was and indeed most other Brexiters and Remainers. Two of her most senior ministers resigned over it. As she was warned the EU rightly rejected it too.

So why a change of opinion towards her?

As I said before, I wouldn't be backing May even if I supported Brexit. This grossly incompetent wannabe dictator isn't fit to organise a p*** up at a brewery let alone run a country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Labour won't put 2nd Brexit referendum in manifesto if there's early election*
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....cts-mps-call-for-general-strike-politics-live


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry but over 2 years of listening and reading what* remainers have to say and then their line of questioning makes them think they are superior to leave voters*. You aren't. I voted leave. Get over it. I will do it again if asked the question again and again.


I would never say that, we are all entitled to our own opinion right or wrong, and we have to live with the result whether we like it or not, I think it's wrong but that's just me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, she would end this Brexit farce as is it, reject the referendum through cheating or at least guarantee a proper PV with the remain option.
> 
> You didn't think Theresa May was doing a good job only a couple of weeks ago! You appeared against her Chequers plan as much as I was and indeed most other Brexiters and Remainers. Two of her most senior ministers resigned over it. As she was warned the EU rightly rejected it too.
> 
> So why a change of opinion towards her?
> 
> As I said before, I wouldn't be backing May even if I supported Brexit. This grossly incompetent wannabe dictator isn't fit to organise a p*** up at a brewery let alone run a country.


I said along time ago she is only being used to get the UK out of the EU. The tory party have been talking about ousting her when Brexit is delivered. I don't agree with the Chequers Deal, never have never will.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This piece is from the Gaurdian....
> 
> View attachment 369774
> 
> View attachment 369773
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/25/has-labours-stance-on-brexit-changed
> 
> In my opinion those in Labour seats that voted leave will probably not vote for Labour in any General Election. Labour has achieved turning voters off voting for them.
> 
> See nothing from the Sun newspaper @KittenKong


I'll be no doubt seeing what The Sun have to say as I'll be at work later!

While I personally believe the 2016 referendum should be declared null and void in much the same way an athlete is stripped of their medals and career when it's exposed they used performance enhancing drugs I recognise this wouldn't go down well in heavy Sun/Mail reading areas like here. Many, like here are indeed traditional Labour voting areas.

But in many cases it's the policy of backing brexit over the past two years that's turned off many voters, myself included.

As it is, whether to continue to support brexit or backing a real peoples vote many have been turned many people off voting Labour anyway after what The Sun has been saying about Labour and Corbyn.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Labour won't put 2nd Brexit referendum in manifesto if there's early election*
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....cts-mps-call-for-general-strike-politics-live


Again that's nothing new. The leadership said they'd prefer a GE from the start of the debate.

But May has ruled out any possibility of a GE hasn't she!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well she is now saying No Deal is better than a Canada Style Deal. You obviously missed that yesterday.


It's because Canada isn't HER personal plan.

May's way or no way.







Worth repeating this.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Even remainers say they would vote for no deal.


Source for that info please.

While if forced to choose between May's deal or No deal I would indeed choose the latter.

But I wouldn't vote for it, only the option to remain.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I said along time ago she is only being used to get the UK out of the EU. The tory party have been talking about ousting her when Brexit is delivered. I don't agree with the Chequers Deal, never have never will.


But try telling Theresa May that. She's vowed to continue well into the next decade and will resist any attempt to oust her.

She's there to get the, "Best possible deal" for the UK in achieving her personal Brexit plan for a, "Deep and special partnership with the EU in a country that works for everyone".

She will lead the UK in its, " Best interests".

Increasingly, the only person to believe that is Theresa May herself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Source for that info please.


The source is you.



> While if forced to choose between May's deal or No deal I would indeed choose the latter.


See ^

Also Stephen Crab MP (Remainer) said so as well the other day (Remainers where equally annoyed how the UK was treated by the EU last week through the UK's representative or PM).


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> But try telling Theresa May that. She's vowed to continue well into the next decade and will resist any attempt to oust her.
> 
> She's there to get the, "Best possible deal" for the UK in achieving her personal Brexit plan for a, "Deep and special partnership with the EU in a country that works for everyone".
> 
> She will lead the UK in its, " Best interests".
> 
> Increasingly, the only person to believe that is Theresa May herself.


She is offering the worst possible deal (Chequers Deal) to acheive a no deal. She did say "No Deal is better than a bad deal" after all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh dear The Labour Conference has alarmed EU Capitals.

*EU steps up plans for no-deal Brexit as Labour stance alarms capitals*









The EU is intensifying its preparations for a no-deal Brexit amid heightened fears in European capitals that Jeremy Corbyn will order his MPs to vote down any deal struck in Brussels, a leaked document reveals.

*Labour's stated goal to reject Theresa May's deal in order to spark a general election has provoked a rush of activity in Brussels, where the party's plans are regarded as one of the substantial risks to the negotiations.*

Shortly after Corbyn ends his leader's speech at the Labour party conference, one of the European commission's most senior officials is to address EU ambassadors on contingency planning in the event of a breakdown in talks, or the likely failure of the UK parliament to ratify any agreement struck in Brussels.

A leaked document circulated among ambassadors in Brussels before Wednesday's meeting warns of the prospect of Labour combining with rebel Tory MPs to kill off a deal.

It says: "Preparedness work has to intensify in the months ahead at national as well as EU level, as uncertainty remains about the outcome of the negotiations and the ratification of a possible deal."

Corbyn has confirmed that unless the agreement struck in Brussels can deliver "exactly the same benefits" as membership of the single market and the customs union, Labour would vote it down "in order to send the government - if it is still in office - straight back to the negotiating table".

The shadow business secretary, Rebecca Long-Bailey, said on Wednesday that it would take a miracle for Labour to support a deal brought back by May.

Corbyn is expected in Brussels on Thursday to meet the EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, to explain his position. *But there is growing concern that Labour's determination to unseat May could instead propel UK into a "cliff-edge" Brexit, throwing the continent into chaos.*

On Tuesday Barnier, gave a downbeat analysis of the state of the negotiations during a private meeting with MEPs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...brexit-preparations-as-labour-alarms-capitals

Well done Corbyn, McDonnell, Starmer and co. The remainers in there desperation for a second referendum might drive the UK over a cliff edge.

I hesitated putting the express papers report up as it would have been deemed as scaremongering but hey here it is seeing as the Guardian is reporting it as well.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So you tell us.
> The Tories are already whipping the remain MP's in the Tory pary into line.


Wouldn't the Tory Whips be telling the MPs to vote for Theresa May's plan?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Tell me then why she is preparing for a no deal Brexit and releasing preperation papers on the .gov website?
> 
> *No Deal is better than a bad deal* (Chequers being the bad deal - this soundbite should be No Deal is better than Theresa May's deal)
> 
> No deal is better than a Canada Style Deal (JRM's proposed deal).
> 
> Even remainers say they would vote for no deal.


I must be so confusing for you. Do you believe May and her government? or erm May and her government?

Is this project fear SWC??


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I must be so confusing for you. Do you believe May and her government? or erm May and her government?
> 
> Is this project fear SWC??


The EU are saying this afternoon Nushka that Labour are driving the UK over a cliff edge with their plans to vote against any deal the Government brings back to be ratified and causing Europe to decend into chaos.

Thanks Labour and the Remainers who are so desperate for a second referendum.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are saying this afternoon Nushka that Labour are driving the UK over a cliff edge with their plans to scupper the Chequers Deal and causing Europe to decend into chaos.
> 
> Thanks Labour and the Remainers who are so desperate for a second referendum.


The EU rejected the Chequers deal anyway, so why would they blame Labour for that particular May mess? 

The only people driving the UK over a cliff edge are those negotiating on behalf of the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> The EU rejected the Chequers deal anyway, so why would they blame Labour for that particular May mess?
> 
> The only people driving the UK over a cliff edge are those negotiating on behalf of the UK.


The EU have said it will decend Europe into chaos if there is a cliff edge brexit. Read the news articles. The same story is being published in the Guardian, Times and Express now.

Remainers are hoping the Fairy God Mother Keir Starmer can save them. He is infact driving the UK over a cliff edge with his plan and so is Corbyn trying to unseat May with a GE.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are saying this afternoon Nushka that Labour are driving the UK over a cliff edge with their plans to vote against any deal the Government brings back to be ratified and causing Europe to decend into chaos.
> 
> Thanks Labour and the Remainers who are so desperate for a second referendum.


The only ones to blame for this mess are those who sold the country a big fat lie.

Mitch Benn nails it.

WARNING SOME RUDE WORDS.


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....brexit-preparations-as-labour-alarms-capitals


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Remainers are hoping the Fairy God Mother Keir Starmer can save them. He is infact driving the UK over a cliff edge with his plan


How can he be? He isn't in the driving seat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> How can he be? He isn't in the driving seat.


The EU have stated which is being reported in the Guardian that Labour's plans would drive the UK over a cliff edge and the Continent into Chaos.

But as per usual some remainers dismiss this as scaremongering or read what they want to read even though this report is in a remain supporting newspaper.

Labour plans to over throw the Government in way of a General Election or Second Referendum. They have made it clear in there conference. So The Fairy God Mother Keir Stamer would be in the driving seat if this happened and driving the UK over a cliff edge.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If there is a GE in my opinion Labour would be probably never win because they have totally ignored all those Labour supporters who voted leave who would now probably be looking to place their votes elsewhere (Conservatives or UKIP) and Labour would probably not get into power for another decade at least.

Some remainers are so hopeful of a second referendum that they have lost touch with labours threat of voting against any deal that the Government bring back thus driving the UK over a cliff edge in doing so. Doing what they predicted leavers would do.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour plans to over throw the Government in way of a General Election or Second Referendum


If and when they manage that you can blame them. Until then they have no part of the negotiations, no power, no influence.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> If there is a GE in my opinion Labour would be probably never win


Agree 100% - so how will this mess be their fault?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU have said it will decend Europe into chaos if there is a cliff edge brexit. Read the news articles. The same story is being published in the Guardian, Times and Express now.
> 
> Remainers are hoping the Fairy God Mother Keir Starmer can save them. He is infact driving the UK over a cliff edge with his plan and so is Corbyn trying to unseat May with a GE.


Haven't you been arguing a no deal (cliff edge) brexit is a good thing?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Agree 100% - so how will this mess be their fault?


They will vote down any deal the Government bring back. They will then be responsible for driving the UK over a cliff edge and the Government will go wasn't our fault you got no deal.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> They will vote down any deal the Government bring back


Something they had no chance of doing when the Tory Government had a perfectly workable majority - thrown away by the woman you believe does a good job.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> They will vote down* any* deal the Government bring back. They will then be responsible for driving the UK over a cliff edge and the Government will go wasn't our fault you got no deal.


ANY deal? You honestly believe that if the Govenment were to get its toys back in the pram, sort something out with the EU that respected the WTO requirement for borders and the EU requirements surrounding the four freedoms, and gave us a trade situation not too much worse than that we currently enjoy (given that any deal will naturally not be as advantageous as the terms enjoyed by EU members), Labour would vote against it?

Not to mention that Labour had no chance of stopping the tories from doing whatever the heck they fancied until May did a handbrake U-turn and called that disasterous snap election.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The source is you.
> 
> See ^
> 
> Also Stephen Crab MP (Remainer) said so as well the other day (Remainers where equally annoyed how the UK was treated by the EU last week through the UK's representative or PM).


Nonsense. Theresa May got exactly what she deserved. I don't personally know any remainers who agree with Stephen Crabb.

It's ironic that it tends to be brexiters who disagreed with May's plan, so much two senior ministers publicly resigned their positions over it, ie Boris Johnson and David Davis.

Yet they rally round and comfort May when the EU rejected the same plan!

It's hilarious.

Oh, by the way I never said I would vote for no deal. I said, or at least meant, I would prefer that over Theresa May's personal plan.

Then, I do not want Brexit full stop.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She is offering the worst possible deal (Chequers Deal) to acheive a no deal. She did say "No Deal is better than a bad deal" after all.


So, what you're saying is she lied when promising, The best possible deal" and so on?

She used, "No deal is better than a bad deal" as a threat. Not as a fact.

She thought they'd come crawling to her. They didn't. Theresa May has personally rejected every reasonable proposal put forward by the EU.

Told you she isn't to be trusted.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> They will vote down any deal the Government bring back. They will then be responsible for driving the UK over a cliff edge and the Government will go wasn't our fault you got no deal.


Labour can't vote down anything unless supported by Tory rebels.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU have said it will decend Europe into chaos if there is a cliff edge brexit. Read the news articles. The same story is being published in the Guardian, Times and Express now.
> 
> Remainers are hoping the Fairy God Mother Keir Starmer can save them. He is infact driving the UK over a cliff edge with his plan and so is Corbyn trying to unseat May with a GE.


Yes, somebody has clearly mastered the art of copy-and-paste.

Starner is not the one in the driving seat; that would be May. Labour have no power to call a GE or overturn a tory majority anyway, unless a number of conservatives rebel - in which case I'm sure the hardcore Brexiteers will be crying traitor.

It's also worth remembering that whilst a cliff edge Brexit will certainly not be good for the EU, they will be better prepared than we are and also in a position where individual countries can be supported as necessary. We're the ones who will become the small fish swimming alone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Corbyn is about to upset some remainers

*Jeremy Corbyn speech: Labour leader makes dramatic offer to Theresa May to do deal on Brexit*

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...rs-theresa-may-a-deal-on-brexit-a3946286.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh well the Labour Conference was not interesting. Labour is obviously split over Brexit and Corbyn doesn't know what to do.

Conservative Conference next. Hopefully it won't be as confusing as the Labour one.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I see Corbyn is about to upset some remainers


Only rather dim ones, I'm afraid. Such a deal isn't going to emerge.


----------



## Elles

I really can’t stand Jeremy Corbyn and the more I see of him the less I like him. In interviews he comes across as superior and sneering. I can’t see Theresa May wanting to have anything to do with him unless she really has to. I do wish Labour would get a better leader.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I really can't stand Jeremy Corbyn and the more I see of him the less I like him. In interviews he comes across as superior and sneering. I can't see Theresa May wanting to have anything to do with him unless she really has to. I do wish Labour would get a better leader.


I wish we had some decent leaders full stop...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I can see Theresa May wiping the floor with him in any GE and in the House of Commons. Oh sorry she already does wipe the floor with him in the House of Commons.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> I wish we had some decent leaders full stop...


Yeah that might help lol. I don't think the Eu have decent leadership either. We need to dump the lot and start again. :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I can see Theresa May wiping the floor with him in any GE and in the House of Commons. Oh sorry she already does wipe the floor with him in the House of Commons.


Except that was exactly what people predicted in the last election, when she lost her majority campaigning on a platform of hard Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Except that was exactly what people predicted in the last election, when she lost her majority campaigning on a platform of hard Brexit.


So you would back Labour who are seriously divided over Brexit which was shown in this Conference and it's leader is completely lost as he doesn't know what to do and they have no plan except to try and topple May's Government get into power and drive the UK over a Cliff Edge Brexit. Labours plan is seriously fudged with half of it's MP's wanting a Labour Brexit (whatever that is) and the other half a Referendum to remain in the EU.

I can understand why Corbyn's supporters stayed away from the Conference. They have lost all faith in him. I won't vote Labour under a Jeremy Corbyn/Momentum leadership, No Way.

Yes next it is the Conservative Conference. Hopefully it won't be as bazzare as the Labour one?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Nit picking are you?
> 
> You know that citizens from countries outside of the EU/Europe can get visas as well to work. There are many companies in Europe that are American for instance (This is an example) with American and EU workers. I used to work for one. They aren't banned because they aren't part of the EU. What an utterly ridduculous comment that UK citizens will not be able to study or work in the EU/Europe.
> 
> Fear Mongering is what @cheekyscrip is doing suggesting that.


Just to remind you TM did not agree to exempt studenta from immigration quotas.
Students therefore are treated the same as work migrants.

Yes, it will be much more difficult to study in UK for EU students and less worthy, student exchange will be affected, what will happen to Erasmus?
Obviously you know best?

OH, I remember, you mentioned some time ago you might go for Irish passport, so not your worry...


----------



## Elles

Why do EU students want to study here when they have 27 countries to choose from?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't personally. Personally I just want the UK out now so No Deal will do. It was always going to be this anyway.


Oh, really? I remember on former thread about referendum that you tried to convince us that Brexit does not mean we will have to leave Single Market???
Now No Deal is good?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So you would back Labour who are seriously divided over Brexit which was shown in this Conference and it's leader is completely lost as he doesn't know what to do and they have no plan except to try and topple May's Government get into power and drive the UK over a Cliff Edge Brexit. Labours plan is seriously fudged with half of it's MP's wanting a Labour Brexit (whatever that is) and the other half a Referendum to remain in the EU.
> *
> I can understand why Corbyn's supporters stayed away from the Conference. They have lost all faith in him*. I won't vote Labour under a Jeremy Corbyn/Momentum leadership, No Way.
> 
> Yes next it is the Conservative Conference. Hopefully it won't be as bazzare as the Labour one?


How do you know Corbyn supporters have stayed away from the conference? Do _you_ have a crystal ball ?

Not saying they're all Corbyn supporters but the very brilliant Ann Pettifor tweeted this at the start of the conference >>
*Ann Pettifor*‏ @AnnPettifor
Have been to many of these but The size of this year's Labour Conference is extraordinary...



















o)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Why do EU students want to study here when they have 27 countries to choose from?


English language. You learn it in school in all EU.
But now German became more and more popular choice among secondary school students - definitely in Poland.
English was in most schools compulsory, German one of the options along with Spanish, French etc..
Now you can decide not to do English but other two foreign languages.
Germans and French would love to break that language monopoly in business and science.
Remember - once Latin was IT, then French...

Personally I would not like the German language to be as ubiquitous as English.

It is difficult and some words just go forever...

They should go for Italian. Easy peasy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How do you know Corbyn supporters have stayed away from the conference?


Something called the newspapers, news channels etc. Nobody was singing oh Jeremy Corbyn instead they where shouting can you hear us Jeremy Corbyn


> Do _you_ have a crystal ball ?


Nope. But you must have one with all your negative predictions.

Not saying they're all Corbyn supporters but the very brilliant Ann Pettifor tweeted this at the start of the conference >>
*Ann Pettifor*‏ @AnnPettifor
Have been to many of these but The size of this year's Labour Conference is extraordinarily small in comparison to previous years :Hilarious


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Why do EU students want to study here when they have 27 countries to choose from?


All sorts of reasons why students study in different countries. Some courses include modules in other EU countries. The obvious ones would be languages but many others benefit from seeing how things are done elsewhere.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Something called the newspapers, news channels etc. Nobody was singing oh Jeremy Corbyn instead they where shouting can you hear us Jeremy Corbyn Nope. But you must have one with all your negative predictions.
> 
> Not saying they're all Corbyn supporters but the very brilliant Ann Pettifor tweeted this at the start of the conference >>
> *Ann Pettifor*‏ @AnnPettifor
> Have been to many of these but The size of this year's Labour Conference is extraordinarily small in comparison to previous years :Hilarious


 We have predictions pretty well supported by facts.

How can you back up yours?
I assume that you think that after No Deal we will not have significant job loses, no price rise due to tariffs, no travel impairment etc?

All will be even better than before Brexit?

How could you back up those notions or it is just a case of wishful thinking?

Convince me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> We have predictions pretty well supported by facts.
> 
> How can you back up yours?
> I assume that you think that after No Deal we will not have significant job loses, no price rise due to tariffs, no travel impairment etc?
> 
> All will be even better than before Brexit?
> 
> How could you back up those notions or it is just a case of wishful thinking?
> 
> Convince me.


No Deal
Nothing needed to be backed up with No Deal


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So you would back Labour who are seriously divided over Brexit which was shown in this Conference and it's leader is completely lost as he doesn't know what to do and they have no plan except to try and topple May's Government get into power and drive the UK over a Cliff Edge Brexit. Labours plan is seriously fudged with half of it's MP's wanting a Labour Brexit (whatever that is) and the other half a Referendum to remain in the EU.
> 
> I can understand why Corbyn's supporters stayed away from the Conference. They have lost all faith in him. I won't vote Labour under a Jeremy Corbyn/Momentum leadership, No Way.
> 
> Yes next it is the Conservative Conference. Hopefully it won't be as bazzare as the Labour one?


No, I wouldn't back Labour.

Their actual policy is to push for a General Election, and, if they get into power, negotiate a deal that takes us out of the EU, and out of the Single Market, but gets us the same benefits as now. And they want a Customs Union with the EU to open up the Irish border, but also want to negotiate our own trade deals. As such, it is even more fantastical than the Tory claims.

If they can't get a general election, then, as per the vote yesterday and Corbyn very quietly in his speech today, all options are still on the table.

Personally I still think that all options are still on the table as far as the actual outcome of all this is concerned, regardless of what anyone is saying at the moment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> No, I wouldn't back Labour.
> 
> Their actual policy is to push for a General Election, and, if they get into power, negotiate a deal that takes us out of the EU, and out of the Single Market, but gets us the same benefits as now. And they want a Customs Union with the EU to open up the Irish border, but also want to negotiate our own trade deals. As such, it is even more fantastical than the Tory claims.
> 
> If they can't get a general election, then, as per the vote yesterday and Corbyn very quietly in his speech today, all options are still on the table.
> 
> Personally I still think that all options are still on the table as far as the actual outcome of all this is concerned, regardless of what anyone is saying at the moment.


You cannot negotiate trade deals being in the Customs Union. The EU said no cherry picking and it is exactly what Labour want to do to. They don't want to be in the Single Market. Cherry Picking. No cake for the Labour Party just raisins and sour grapes.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Nobody was singing oh Jeremy Corbyn instead they where shouting can you hear us Jeremy Corbyn


They were singing that after his speech today; I was watching it live.

Didn't impress me much.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Why do EU students want to study here when they have 27 countries to choose from?


Leaving Erasmus would be terrible for British students too.

*Brexit: Students warn Theresa May of 'catastrophic' no-deal*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales...el=social&ns_linkname=wales&ns_source=twitter

https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/05/brexit-what-future-for-erasmus-students


Share

TEXT SIZEAaAa

It gives students the chance to study and gain experience abroad. But, if Brexit Britain crashes out of the EU without a deal, the Erasmus plus programme could be over in the UK.

In Brussels, students at the ULB university are still applying to head across the water - for now.

"For us, we have to start looking for other destinations should there be a hard Brexit. Looking into Canada, Ireland being potential destinations," said Kristin Bartik, ULB Vice-Rector.

"And for some of our students, Northern European countries, Scandinavian countries might be a potential alternative. But it would be still be a pity that it's not the UK."

One student, from London, reckons a hard Brexit will be a blow to both sides.

"If Brexit did finish without a proper deal, it would be a huge loss not only for the UK, but also for Europe I feel. Because people come over to the UK for the education system, to learn English, to experience the UK, so I think it would be a big shame in my opinion," said Emma J Latham, in Brussels.

/


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You cannot negotiate trade deals being in the Customs Union. The EU said no cherry picking and it is exactly what Labour want to do to. They don't want to be in the Single Market. Cherry Picking. No cake for the Labour Party just raisins and sour grapes.


Yes. That's why I said:



Arnie83 said:


> Their actual policy is to push for a General Election, and, if they get into power, negotiate a deal that takes us out of the EU, and out of the Single Market, but gets us the same benefits as now. And they want a Customs Union with the EU to open up the Irish border, but also want to negotiate our own trade deals. *As such, it is even more fantastical than the Tory claims*.


Although Labour claim that it would not be THE Customs Union, just A Customs Union. They're promising fantasy unicorns, much like the Mogglodytes saying that No Deal would financially benefit the UK.

Corbyn doesn't really care too much about Brexit, but he's willing to promise nonsense to get a chance at power. (Which he won't get either, imo)


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are saying this afternoon Nushka that Labour are driving the UK over a cliff edge with their plans to vote against any deal the Government brings back to be ratified and causing Europe to decend into chaos.
> 
> Thanks Labour and the Remainers who are so desperate for a second referendum.





stockwellcat. said:


> No Deal
> Nothing needed to be backed up with No Deal


There is no consistency in your posts. You want no deal, then own the ensuing chaos if we do crash out. Don't try to pin the blame on the EU, labour or remoaners. Its what _you _want.


----------



## Chathin

If Brexit happens we're going to have a an unbelievable amount of brain drain, a lost generation and god knows what other negative side effects, but, it will be survivable. Most that voted for it will be dead by the time we're even halfway through the after effects.

If a HARD BREXIT (as people seem to be banging on about and for some crazy reason actually want) happens we as a country will be well and truly up the creek without a paddle. What a vast amount of Brexiteers don't realise is that foods, medicines, flights, skilled workers, etcetrera are all tied into EU regulations. As soon we we dump them we need to renegotiate with ALL member states (and the EU itself) and they will not let us do it easily.

I genuinely hope people with serious medical conditions stock up on their medicines as it's going to be an extremely bumpy ride.


----------



## havoc

Chathin said:


> As soon we we dump them we need to renegotiate with ALL member states *(and the EU itself) and they will not let us do it easily. *QUOTE]
> 
> They won't make it any more difficult than for any other non member state for goodness sake. What's annoying isolationist Brits is that they believe we should have an easier setup than anyone else. Why? We've chosen to leave - they didn't kick us out. We don't want to be a part of it and yet we think we have some entitlement to all the advantages. It's like handing in your notice at work and then throwing a temper tantrum when you find out you don't get to keep all your employee benefits when you leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

None of what anyone is saying on here would change my vote to leave and I wouldn't dream of voting for Corbyn's Labour Party in any General Election.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Corbyn doesn't really care too much about Brexit, but he's willing to promise nonsense to get a chance at power. (Which he won't get either, imo)


That nonsense will lose Jeremy Corbyn any Election. Not predicting just providing my opinion.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> None of what anyone is saying on here would change my vote to leave and I wouldn't dream of voting for Corbyn's Labour Party in any General Election.


Nobody is suggesting it should. Where some of us have a problem understanding your arguments is that you seem to need it all to be black and white. Many here wouldn't vote for Corbyn - we don't have to find him wonderful to see May as incompetent. I think you're selling yourself short - don't you think you deserve better? I'd be even more cross at the way the negotiations have been handled if I'd voted leave.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> None of what anyone is saying on here would change my vote to leave and I wouldn't dream of voting for Corbyn's Labour Party in any General Election.


Thats where you and I differ. See I would change my vote to leave if the evidence was there to show leaving would be better for the country, better for tackling the greatest threat to our existence - climate breakdown.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Nobody is suggesting it should. Where some of us have a problem understanding your arguments is that you seem to need it all to be black and white. Many here wouldn't vote for Corbyn - we don't have to find him wonderful to see May as incompetent. I think you're selling yourself short - don't you think you deserve better? I'd be even more cross at the way the negotiations have been handled if I'd voted leave.


Nothing is changing my mind. Perhaps I should be black and white ti make things clearer.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing is changing my mind. Perhaps I should be black and white ti make things clearer.


And again - nobody expects you to. It's no part of any rational debate though just to spout 'project fear' at projections which don't fit your picture of the future or to say someone is doing a good job when they're so obviously not. Having a go at Corbyn doesn't make May great.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> And again - nobody expects you to. It's no part of any rational debate though just to spout 'project fear' at projections which don't fit your picture of the future or to say someone is doing a good job when they're so obviously not. Having a go at Corbyn doesn't make May great.


But saying Corbyn is right knowing that he is wrong isn't right either.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing is changing my mind. Perhaps I should be black and white ti make things clearer.


Wonder if losing your job maybe? Or if someone you care about human or a pet was ill and treatment not available?
If millions of jobs are lost imagine that some of those people will have to abandon their pets with no income, possibly homeless?
If people have less money and government has to make cuts how it will affect any conservation projects? 
Look at Grenfell - this is how cutting costs looks like.
What if you elderly relative needs a carer but there is a shortage of funds and workers?
You don't want to know until you will be affected.
If not you, who cares about others?
I find Leave so selfish.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing is changing my mind. Perhaps I should be black and white ti make things clearer.


And that is your prerogative. But anyone looking objectively can see brexit is a complete and utter shambles and Mays government are a bunch of shysters. I thought Cameron was bad but this is the worst government in living memory. They really are prepared to drag the country over a cliff.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> And that is your prerogative. But anyone looking objectively can see brexit is a complete and utter shambles and Mays government are a bunch of shysters. I thought Cameron was bad but this is the worst government in living memory. They really are prepared to drag the country over a cliff.


To oblige the deluded.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I will start speaking in one, two, three, four or five word to the point sentences.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The man is deluded. His favourite colour is red.


----------



## Elles

It doesn’t help bringing up fails that happened inside the Eu and under different governments, like Grenfell for example. Why would looking at Grenfell change anyone’s minds? Neither Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dem, nor the Eu did anything about it, even after hundreds of warnings. There’s still very little being done to safeguard people still living in these blocks. 

ETA Pretty much the same applies for the elderly who need carers. There aren’t enough people who will work for a pittance racing around the country looking after the elderly and disabled who need it and with the aging population it can only get worse. Other Eu countries have the same problems and we haven’t left yet.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That nonsense will lose Jeremy Corbyn any Election. Not predicting just providing my opinion.


I don't think his Brexit stance will lose him the election; a lot of people will believe any old rubbish about Brexit.

It's his economic policies make him unelectable for me.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It doesn't help bringing up fails that happened inside the Eu and under different governments, like Grenfell for example. Why would looking at Grenfell change anyone's minds? Neither Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dem, nor the Eu did anything about it, even after hundreds of warnings. There's still very little being done to safeguard people still living in these blocks.


Neoliberalism led to the Grenfell disaster - brexit was always about deregulation.

.


----------



## MarkCatFreak

In the end...the UK will win. The EU is getting absurder every day with a drunk guy leading the pack over there in Brussels.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MarkCatFreak said:


> In the end...the UK will win. The EU is getting absurder every day with a drunk guy leading the pack over there in Brussels.


Didn't know we had any war or contest with EU?
Win what?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It's his economic policies make him unelectable for me.


Its his economic policies which appeal to many. He recognises the urgency of switching to a green economy.

Corbyn: "There is no bigger threat facing humanity than climate change...we only have one planet".

.........................


----------



## Elles

The trouble is as long as people keep going on about how bad it all is, they just confirm (erroneously, or not) that being in the Eu is of little to no advantage to the average person, or the disadvantaged. There is no proof that things will get worse outside of it, other than predictions from economists, pollsters and financiers, many of whom has been so badly wrong and in some cases so greedy, they have caused collapse, austerity and recessions. More than once.

I have no idea how people who want to stay in the Eu will persuade anyone it’s a good idea. They haven’t before and I don’t think they can now.


----------



## MarkCatFreak

cheekyscrip said:


> Didn't know we had any war or contest with EU?
> Win what?


Winning as in the UK will be better off. Every year the EU just pulls a random number out of the hat.. Here you go, please cough it up! Hundreds of millions to fund their mental projects. Did you know that today was international languages day?? I am not joking. Saw ads for this (paid for by the European Union) on LinkedIn.
They are a bunch of incompetent drunks who are highly skilled in wasting money. The UK will 'win' as in they no longer have to pay whatever Brussels tells them to.
The countries that are still stuck in this EU dream will continue to pay hundreds of millions each year for some illusion created by a small elite group. In 5 years from now, the UK will be like Switzerland. Minding their own business, prosper and laughing every time the EU decides to add another ex-soviet country and trust a corrupt leader with their economical support.


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Yawn:Bored


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The trouble is as long as people keep going on about how bad it all is, they just confirm (erroneously, or not) that being in the Eu is of little to no advantage to the average person, or the disadvantaged. There is no proof that things will get worse outside of it, other than predictions from economists, pollsters and financiers, many of whom has been so badly wrong and in some cases so greedy, they have caused collapse, austerity and recessions. More than once.
> 
> I have no idea how people who want to stay in the Eu will persuade anyone it's a good idea. They haven't before and I don't think they can now.


There is actually plenty of evidence things are going to get worse outside the EU. Some people clearly dont want to see it.


----------



## Arnie83

MarkCatFreak said:


> In the end...the UK will win. The EU is getting absurder every day with a drunk guy leading the pack over there in Brussels.


How odd that a new member should join Pet Forums and make his first post on a thread like this, and in such a way.

A more cynical person than I - the epitome of innocence - might almost suspect a ban sidestep.

I'm sure the UK is seeking a deal with its European relatives, and not trying to win anything. Just as the poorly Mr Juncker and his colleagues are looking to conclude a deal which benefits everyone equally.


----------



## MarkCatFreak

noushka05 said:


> There is actually plenty of evidence things are going to get worse outside the EU. Some people clearly dont want to see it.


Like? Please don't tell me you are the girl who is afraid the NHS will disappear and she won't be able to visit France


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Its his economic policies which appeal to many. He recognises the urgency of switching to a green economy.
> 
> Corbyn: "There is no bigger threat facing humanity than climate change...we only have one planet".
> 
> .........................


I'm sure they are, and I agree with his concern about climate change. But in a different thread, perhaps.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MarkCatFreak said:


> Winning as in the UK will be better off. Every year the EU just pulls a random number out of the hat.. Here you go, please cough it up! Hundreds of millions to fund their mental projects. Did you know that today was international languages day?? I am not joking. Saw ads for this (paid for by the European Union) on LinkedIn.
> They are a bunch of incompetent drunks who are highly skilled in wasting money. The UK will 'win' as in they no longer have to pay whatever Brussels tells them to.
> The countries that are still stuck in this EU dream will continue to pay hundreds of millions each year for some illusion created by a small elite group. In 5 years from now, the UK will be like Switzerland. Minding their own business, prosper and laughing every time the EU decides to add another ex-soviet country and trust a corrupt leader with their economical support.


Did I say deluded?

Well, see you in years in Wonderland then....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The trouble is as long as people keep going on about how bad it all is, they just confirm (erroneously, or not) that being in the Eu is of little to no advantage to the average person, or the disadvantaged. * There is no proof that things will get worse outside of it, other than predictions from economists*, pollsters and financiers, many of whom has been so badly wrong and in some cases so greedy, they have caused collapse, austerity and recessions. More than once.
> 
> I have no idea how people who want to stay in the Eu will persuade anyone it's a good idea. They haven't before and I don't think they can now.


I can only repeat: If the costs of business rise, then profits, growth and tax revenue will fall. It doesn't need a degree in economics to be obvious.

We really will be worse off than we would otherwise have been. I'm not talking (necessarily) a crashed economy, but a lower ability to do things centrally that help climate change, environmental policies, and welfare of both humans and animals.

That's all.


----------



## Elles

It’s so frustrating. All of the things you list, climate change etc are down to us. We carry on as is and rely on the Eu to sort it out, we are utterly doomed. People being worse off might actually help. If a family can’t afford a car each, meat with every meal and holidays abroad twice a year, that will be good for the environment and animal welfare. It still has the potential to go either way, in or out imho.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It's so frustrating. All of the things you list, climate change etc are down to us. We carry on as is and rely on the Eu to sort it out, we are utterly doomed. People being worse off might actually help. If a family can't afford a car each, meat with every meal and holidays abroad twice a year, that will be good for the environment and animal welfare. It still has the potential to go either way, in or out imho.


To offset the rising costs of transportation, tariffs etc we will have to produce cheap and buy cheap... unfortunately eco friendly costs money, wildlife preservation costs money and the extreme Tories are not particular friends of wildlife or animals to care, they don't care much about common people either ...
Green belts will go with the power take away from councils...
Rising unemployment will mean people will happily look another way if new development will mean jobs.
Environment? It will not be high on agenda.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry for quoting this news article but I would like to voice a few points and if you agree you agree if you don't fine.

*No-deal Brexit 'would stop British farming exports for six months'*
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....say-british-farmers-national-farmers-union-eu

I fail to see how this is catastrophic.

Here is why.

We won't be exporting live stock for slaughter so the animals will be less stressed. Then there is the fact that we'd eat British produce. What is wrong with that?

I eat British produce now from Aldi and I make sure what I buy is British to support our Farmers why should I be supporting produce from farmers from other countries when I can get produce from British Farms in my local Aldi store?

So again I do not see how this is negative and why it is catostrophic.

Support British Farmers. Buy British Produce. Simple.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry for quoting this news article but I would like to voice a few points and if you agree you agree if you don't fine.
> *No-deal Brexit 'would stop British farming exports for six months'*
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....say-british-farmers-national-farmers-union-eu
> 
> I fail to see how this is catastrophic.
> 
> Here is why.
> 
> We won't be exporting live stock for slaughter so the animals will be less stressed. Then there is the fact that we'd eat British produce. What is wrong with that?
> 
> I eat British produce now from Aldi and I make sure what I buy is British to support our Farmers why should I be supporting produce from farmers from other countries when I can get produce from British Farms in my local Aldi store?
> 
> So again I do not see how this is negative and why it is catostrophic.


Exactly what was said in Cuba and North Korea!!!
Ever been there? Please go!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly what was said in Cuba and North Korea!!!
> Ever been there? Please go!!!


What are you going on about. You're not making sense.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> What are you going on about. You're not making sense.


I do, those countries for a time tried or try to be sort of self sufficient? 
Cuba lost support with a fall of Berlin Wall etc... 
Many British products are simply quite expensive for Joe Public, food and beverage alike, but higher end of market buys it elsewhere.

Must admit obesity is a bit of a problem and might be a benefit there , we will all dream about our very own turnip.


----------



## stockwellcat.

They won't be expensive if sold in the UK. The article is going on about British Produce exports not being allowed for 6 months. It won't drive prices up as British produce will be sold within the UK. It's called being Self sufficient.

On an animal welfare prespective if would solve a problem as sheep, pigs, chicken and cows won't be exported abroad to slaughter houses alive (do you know how stressful that is for them).


----------



## Elles

Yes, it’s possible that there will be a mass exodus from the U.K. People will have to sell their houses cheaply and many will end up in negative equity as the housing market collapses. Wasn’t there some kind of property crisis in Spain and weren’t some (British) people kicked out and their houses taken off them? Has the market recovered yet? My memory on it is a bit vague. I’m surprised people are still buying houses, with the insecurity over their jobs and that house prices will suffer after brexit tbh. The government will need to get a move on with social housing. Not that young people can afford their own home now of course.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> They won't be expensive if sold in the UK. The article is going on about British Produce exports not being allowed for 6 months. It won't drive prices up as British produce will be sold within the UK. It's called being Self sufficient.
> 
> On an animal welfare prespective if would solve a problem as sheep, pigs, chicken and cows won't be exported abroad to slaughter houses alive (do you know how stressful that is for them).


----------



## Elles

I’ve started watching Michael Palin in North Korea.

What’s odd is if you watch the news filming in the U.K., the majority seem to be overweight, in Korea they’re nearly all slim, apart from Kim Yong.


----------



## Elles

You know Aldi is German? @stockwellcat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> You know Aldi is German? @stockwellcat.


Aldi is of German origin. But there is plenty of them over here and they are cheaper that Tescos, Sainsburys etc. The stores over here in the UK sell British produce and meat and it is of good quality.


----------



## Elles

Yes, I like Lidl. Amazing how German supermarkets can sell British produce to the British, cheaper than British supermarkets can, and I agree, there’s no problem with the quality either.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Aldi is of German origin. But there is plenty of them over here and they are cheaper that Tescos, Sainsburys etc. The stores over here in the UK sell British produce and meat and it is of good quality.


They don't seem worried about a no deal either, as they are still opening new stores


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Yes, I like Lidl. Amazing how German supermarkets can sell British produce to the British, cheaper than British supermarkets can, and I agree, there's no problem with the quality either.


I have shopped at Lidl and still do now and then. The meat and produce in my opinion at both Aldi and Lidl is better than the leading UK supermarkets (Tescos, Sainsburys etc) and it is British produce and meat they sell.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure they are, and I agree with his concern about climate change. But in a different thread, perhaps.


No problem, just to say though Arnie, mitigating climate change and ecological collapse should be every leaders priority, The current economic model must be ditched for a sustainable one. Corbyn is talking more sense on this issue than all but the Greens.


Elles said:


> It's so frustrating. All of the things you list, climate change etc are down to us. We carry on as is and rely on the Eu to sort it out, we are utterly doomed. People being worse off might actually help. If a family can't afford a car each, meat with every meal and holidays abroad twice a year, that will be good for the environment and animal welfare. It still has the potential to go either way, in or out imho.


.

We dont rely on the EU to sort it out, we work together to sort it out, collaboration with our neighbours is the only way.

Climate change, pollution, ecological collapse, giant corporations running amok - these things need global solutions, we simply cannot tackle them alone. The tories are going to exacerbate these threats with their bonfire of red tape, with their trade deal with the USA. They want further deregulation of industry, they want further tax cuts for corporate interests. This is what brexit was always about for them. Brexit is serving as a massive distraction when we should be focusing all our attention on the things that really matter. The young generation are going to be left with the aftermath of our folly. God help em.

*Brexit: What leaving the EU internal energy market would mean*
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/06/14/brexit-eu-internal-single-energy-market-interconnector/

*Brexit spells end to EU leadership in climate diplomacy*
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-climatechange-idUKKCN0ZG1WS


----------



## Elles

We collaborate with the Eu and prevent them from bringing in much needed controls don’t we? Better the U.K. end up under smog than the whole of Europe do. Although I thought we and individual American states were still sticking to the Paris agreement.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> We collaborate with the Eu and prevent them from bringing in much needed controls don't we? Better the U.K. end up under smog than the whole of Europe do. Although I thought we and individual American states were still sticking to the Paris agreement.


I have no idea what your first question means.

You dont care about the tens of thousands of people dying annually in this country from air pollution? You do know pollution crosses borders?

Read this and weep.

*UK's green watchdog will be powerless over climate change post-Brexit*
Environmentalists accuse government of using withdrawal of EU controls to weaken regulation

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/02/green-watchdog-powerless-climate-change-post-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw …


----------



## Elles

I thought you said that the British had stopped the Eu banning pesticides that kill bees? If Britain are going to prevent the Eu bringing in controls, aren’t we better out so at least Europe get to do it. Europe is a lot bigger than we are.

I thought we were sticking to the Paris agreement? I also thought we were still sticking to doing away with diesel, other than adjusted haulage vehicles. Probably because electric cars are now more productive and profitable, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I see Corbyn is about to upset some remainers
> 
> *Jeremy Corbyn speech: Labour leader makes dramatic offer to Theresa May to do deal on Brexit*
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...rs-theresa-may-a-deal-on-brexit-a3946286.html


I don't like it obviously, but reading between the lines some of it makes sense such as staying in the CU which is one way of avoiding a hard border.

I thought you would be impressed by that as you've argued everyone should work together to make Brexit a success by getting behind it for the sake of their country.

This could be seen as Corbyn's way of doing that. During the war didn't Churchill and the opposition work together?

Naturally, seeing May ignores advice from her own party let alone the opposition she'll reject Corbyn's offer of an olive branch out right.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It will be.
> 
> TM will still be selling her dead in the water Chequers plan as she's the only one who seems to still believe in it.
> 
> I fail to understand why you believe it's Labou


Labour are offering unicorns and daisys.
Lets stay in the Customs Union and leave the Single Market and strike trade deals with other countries. The biggest lie of them all. You cannot strike trade deals being a member of the Customs Union. Corbyn is lying to gain his term as PM. You are falling for it.

You have to leave both to strike trade deals outside of the EU. Being a member of the Customs Union stops you signing any trade deal and trumping the UK to not having a say in any future laws the EU puts on the UK and EU.

Sorry this is the worst deal possible and you want this.

Labour cannot be trusted with Brexit full stop end of.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Yes, it's possible that there will be a mass exodus from the U.K. People will have to sell their houses cheaply and many will end up in negative equity as the housing market collapses


Depends what you mean by a house price 'collapse'. Unlikely to hit the lower end of the market - as with everything choice is for the rich or the skilled. I think there already signs at the top end though whether this is just an overdue correction isn't clear.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> How odd that a new member should join Pet Forums and make his first post on a thread like this, and in such a way.
> 
> A more cynical person than I - the epitome of innocence - might almost suspect a ban sidestep.
> 
> I'm sure the UK is seeking a deal with its European relatives, and not trying to win anything. Just as the poorly Mr Juncker and his colleagues are looking to conclude a deal which benefits everyone equally.


The return of Dr Pepper???


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> The return of Dr Pepper???


I thought so, unless it is the return of TM .
Though DrP was amusing... the horror of it BJ disguised as TM????


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour are offering unicorns and daisys.
> Lets stay in the Customs Union and leave the Single Market and strike trade deals with other countries. The biggest lie of them all. You cannot strike trade deals being a member of the Customs Union. Corbyn is lying to gain his term as PM. You are falling for it.
> 
> You have to leave both to strike trade deals outside of the EU. Being a member of the Customs Union stops you signing any trade deal and trumping the UK to not having a say in any future laws the EU puts on the UK and EU.
> 
> Sorry this is the worst deal possible and you want this.
> 
> Labour cannot be trusted with Brexit full stop end of.


You are so very wrong. My first sentence clearly stated I didn't like it.

Just because I suggest another side to a debate doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it.

I saw it as an attempt at an olive branch for Corbyn to suggest working with May to deliver the best possible Brexit.

I thought you wanted everyone to work together to make Brexit a success?

No I'm not falling for it. Apart from the CU pledge, Corbyn's plan is as much rubbish as TM's Chequers plan.

But some (not me!) might argue TM and JC working together would deliver a successful Brexit as they're putting their differences aside for the sake of their country in working together.

Yes, JC's "Jobs first Brexit" is absolute bulls**t. We agree on that.

But that doesn't make May's Chequers plan acceptable in comparison.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, JC's "Jobs first Brexit" is absolute bulls**t.


There is no need to swear all the time. 50p for the swear jar even if you ** it out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You are so very wrong. My first sentence clearly stated I didn't like it.
> 
> Just because I suggest another side to a debate doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it.
> 
> I saw it as an attempt at an olive branch for Corbyn to suggest working with May to deliver the best possible Brexit.
> 
> I thought you wanted everyone to work together to make Brexit a success?
> 
> No I'm not falling for it. Apart from the CU pledge, Corbyn's plan is as much rubbish as TM's Chequers plan.
> 
> But some (not me!) might argue TM and JC working together would deliver a successful Brexit as they're putting their differences aside for the sake of their country in working together.
> 
> Yes, JC's "Jobs first Brexit" is absolute bulls**t. We agree on that.
> 
> But that doesn't make May's Chequers plan acceptable in comparison.


In an ideal world wouldn't it be nice for Corbyn and May to sort an amicible Brexit out. But I am affraid (unicorns might fly and pigs to and the fairy God Mother doing over time) it is to late for this fairy tail/dream. Labour Party politics are in the way.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> There is no need to swear all the time. 50p for the swear jar even if you ** it out.


On the other Brexit forum I'm on (Sabre Roads) I once quoted John Major's "Bas****s" comment when the far right of his party tried to oust him.

I put the full word in, seeing it was a quote but immediately noticed it completely starred out when I posted it.

Some clever software I think instantly deleted the offending word!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> On the other Brexit forum I'm on (Sabre Roads) I once quoted John Major's "Bas****s"


You're at £1 for the pf swear jar. :Hilarious

I have the same software on my forums. It is easy to setup.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> You're at £1 for the pf swear jar. :Hilarious
> 
> I have the same software on my forums. It is easy to setup.


 I will set up a special jar for all those who promise to sit on their hands , then don't!!!
50 p per post :Hilarious . 
It will be called Turnip Fund , to provide enough British born turnips when British Pigs takeover is complete.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> In an ideal world wouldn't it be nice for Corbyn and May to sort an amicible Brexit out. But I am affraid (unicorns might fly and pigs to and the fairy God Mother doing over time) it is to late for this fairy tail/dream. Labour Party politics are in the way.


Given that the Tories have been fighting like cats in a sack for 2 years without arriving at a policy of their own, I somehow doubt that a joint Tory / Labour position would have been found!

I'm afraid the fact is that since the start we have been destined to negotiate a worse position than we have now, and that isn't something that is easy to do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I will set up a special jar for all those who promise to sit on their hands , then don't!!!


People are allowed to change their minds and participate in threads. It would be a dictatorship if they weren't allowed like North Korea :Hilarious

Oh no I am sounding like you now :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> *I thought you said that the British* had stopped the Eu banning pesticides that kill bees? If Britain are going to prevent the Eu bringing in controls, aren't we better out so at least Europe get to do it. Europe is a lot bigger than we are.
> 
> I thought we were sticking to the Paris agreement? I also thought we were still sticking to doing away with diesel, other than adjusted haulage vehicles. Probably because electric cars are now more productive and profitable, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.


#

I said the tories  https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-aim-block-full-eu-ban-bee-harming-pesticides

But with a progressive government and progressive MEPs we could reform the EU from within. Pass progressive policies to protect our environment and to radically tackle climate change.

Words are cheap - particularly tory words. We need radical action yet the tories have deregulated the fracking industry, given massive subsidies to the fossil fuel industry whilst simultaneously trying to kill off the renewables industry. So even *if* they did ban diesel in 2040 it would be too little too late - https://www.ft.com/content/9c3b2f96...d178a#myft:notification:instant-email:content

https://www.theccc.org.uk/2018/07/10/governments-road-to-zero-strategy-falls-short-ccc-says/

Take this recent example. The Scottish Greens tabled this amendment to push for stronger sustainability standards in the city of Edinburgh. Labour, SNP and lib dems all supported it. Guess which was the only party to oppose action to tackle climate emissions and energy use??


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> In an ideal world wouldn't it be nice for Corbyn and May to sort an amicible Brexit out. But I am affraid (unicorns might fly and pigs to and the fairy God Mother doing over time) it is to late for this fairy tail/dream. Labour Party politics are in the way.


Then I guess the same could be said vice verse.

Having slept on it either Corbyn is as obsessed about Brexit as much as Theresa May, or he has already conceded defeat in offering to work with her in order to achieve his personal dream- ie: to get the UK out of the EU at any price and sod the consequences.

So it would appear to have confirmed Corbyn has gone back on his word to follow through a motion passed by Labour members on a people's vote by suggesting such vomit in his speech.

Corbyn will be curtains when he loses the next general election, whenever that may be. Even his loyal followers must realise that. I only wish they got rid of him when they had the chance but there you go. He wouldn't survive another post election challenge if he didn't step down voluntarily.

I wasn't able to watch the conference, being at work all week but from what I heard Keir Starmer was particularly impressive. His passion reminded me of Tony Blair's in his days of opposition.

I'm not a gambler, but if I was my money's on him becoming the next Labour leader.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You're at £1 for the pf swear jar. :Hilarious
> 
> I have the same software on my forums. It is easy to setup.


You might have started something there. Donations to Cat's Protection seeing we're both cat lovers?


----------



## Arnie83

*Theresa May losing cabinet support for no-deal Brexit if EU talks fail*

Theresa May is losing cabinet support for her plan to revert to a no-deal Brexit if Europe rejects the Chequers proposals, sources have told _The Times_.

Cabinet ministers are said to be looking at how to prevent Mrs May from locking Britain into a no-deal Brexit. Sources say that those opposed to her strategy include Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary, Jeremy Hunt, the foreign secretary, Michael Gove, the environment secretary, and Sajid Javid, the home secretary.​
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...for-no-deal-brexit-if-eu-talks-fail-9svwlwztx

Interesting. They're pushing a Canada-style deal instead, though they have to find a way to solve the Irish border problem. The actual Canada deal requires border checks.

And, also interesting, Amber Rudd is quoted thusly:

The former home secretary said yesterday that she could foresee circumstances under which *she would back a second referendum*. "No deal is something parliament would object to," she said. "A people's vote is something that could result from an impasse. Is it preferable to no deal; absolutely."​
I think everyone in the Cabinet will support May through the party conference - in contrast to the antics of Boris and the Mogglodytes* - but afterwards things could start getting messy again.

* Great name for a band!


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> I wasn't able to watch the conference, being at work all week but from what I heard Keir Starmer was particularly impressive. His passion reminded me of Tony Blair's in his days of opposition.
> 
> I'm not a gambler, but if I was my money's on him becoming the next Labour leader.


Has crossed my mind that Labour would do a lot better if he were the face of the party


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> * Great name for a band!


:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

This is great! The Irish Border has its own twitter profile

*The Irish Border*‏ @BorderIrish

There's me at the Brexit negotiations


----------



## havoc

Noush, your propensity for posting photos etc. drives me up the wall but that one truly made me LOL


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> Noush, your propensity for posting photos etc. drives me up the wall but that one truly made me LOL


I thought it was a good one

And I'll try to be more selective on the pic front in the future


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏Verified account @mrjamesob 2h2 hours ago

_We are about to become the first country in history to impose economic sanctions on ourselves.

And still they bleat about 'control _'.



*UK appoints food supplies minister amid fears of no-deal Brexit*
MP David Rutley, an ex-Asda and PepsiCo executive, will oversee protection of supplie

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> *They don't seem worried about a no deal eithe*r, as they are still opening new stores


Oh yes they do. And they're not the only one.....

https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2018/07/aldi-asks-food-suppliers-plans-no-deal-brexit/

The German retailer is not the only one to show signs of worry ahead of Brexit.

Sainsbury's chief executive Mike Coupe has issued a warning regarding the impact of customs delays, while Tesco chief executive Dave Lewis warned that tariffs - which could be levied in the event of a no-deal Brexit - would see everyday prices rise.

Meanwhile, Asda chief executive Roger Burnley warned that a hard Brexit could leave food rotting at the border and have severe financial implications for the grocery sector.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *James O'Brien*‏Verified account @mrjamesob 2h2 hours ago
> 
> _We are about to become the first country in history to impose economic sanctions on ourselves.
> 
> And still they bleat about 'control _'.
> 
> 
> 
> *UK appoints food supplies minister amid fears of no-deal Brexit*
> MP David Rutley, an ex-Asda and PepsiCo executive, will oversee protection of supplie
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw


"Carry your Great British Ration book with pride and live like our forefathers used to".

A bloody insult to them seeing most had to endure all this so further generations would't have to.

Seriously though. Why do they think people will rally round and support people in this way, just as they did in the war when this is self inflicted and completely avoidable?

That's an insult to everyone who was killed in the war. We all lost people, I never met an uncle thanks to it for example.

Some quarters do actually believe Britain IS at war with the EU and the rest of Europe the way they carry on.

Arguably, only one person died in the name of Brexit. Jo Cox MP.


----------



## Arnie83

Corbyn prior to his meeting with Barnier this morning:

"With just weeks of negotiating time left, it's clear that UK-EU Brexit talks are in a perilous state. Time is running out and companies are losing patience with the absence of any clarity from the government.

"Crashing out of Europe with no deal risks being a national disaster. That is why I'm meeting EU officials today, and I will be urging them to do all they can to avoid a 'no-deal' outcome, which would be so damaging to jobs and living standards in both the UK and EU countries."​
Before anyone wonders why the meeting happened, Barnier says he is happy to talk to any of them and the likes of Clegg, Cable & Farage have taken him up on the offer.


----------



## noushka05

Brexit the gift that keeps on giving.

*NHS Against Brexit*‏ @NHSvBrexit 2h2 hours ago

*BREAKING NEWS:* Ambulances are being stockpiled now. Yes, *AMBULANCES*. 
If anyone's still positive about the prospect of Brexit, you might want to give this article a read

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...nces-amid-brexit-shortage-fears-a3947276.html


----------



## noushka05

Wow this is an interesting little fact. So much damage in such a short space of time.

_Between 1996 and today, 22 years, Conservatives have only had an overall majority for just two years, 2015-17.

And in those two years, they unleashed both an in/out referendum (with a 
"mandate" which parliament seems not to be able to gainsay) and a botched Brexit.

Two years._


----------



## Arnie83

The Tories have rejected Corbyn's bilateral approach offer, with Chairman Brandon Lewis saying

The problem with what Labour outlined is that would not allow us to do global trade deals and therefore doesn't respect the referendum.​
because it proposes a new customs union, ignoring the fact that Labour's idea is to negotiate one that allows us to negotiate our own trade deals.

The EU would laugh the idea out of court, of course, but that's not the reason Lewis chose, unless he clarified and it wasn't reported in the Standard.

Either way, they've said no. On we go ...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> People are allowed to change their minds and participate in threads. It would be a dictatorship if they weren't allowed like North Korea :Hilarious
> 
> Oh no I am sounding like you now :Hilarious


Need to toughen up a touch more but you are on the right track baby....:Joyful:Singing


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Need to toughen up a touch more but you are on the right track baby....:Joyful:Singing


I meant changing your mind....


----------



## noushka05

What a fantastic MP Caroline Lucas is. Saw her at the peoples walk for wildlife in London on Saturday, she is awesome. If all MPs had an ounce of her honesty, integrity and compassion this would be a great country.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas
_
14% of Brighton & Sussex University Hospitals workforce are from rest of EU yet lack of clarity or direction from central Govt means there's been no planning for impact of Brexit. 
I'm one of cross party group of @MoreUnitedUK MPs highlighting Brexit/ NHS problems

















_


----------



## Elles

My local MP is also one of the seven. Ben Bradshaw. I don’t think he’s a Corbyn fan though.

However the NHS are preparing.  They’ve ordered new ambulances with money the government gave them, which you can view as good or bad, depending on your POV. Good, there’s enough money to buy new ambulances. Bad, they’re made in Germany, not the U.K., where we make luxury cars for Indian based corporations instead. Good and bad there’ll be more ambulances to collect the sick and injured and for people to queue outside hospitals in. Bad it’s all the fault of Brexit that they’re even needed and they’re only being ordered because when the ports shut down we won’t be able to get any more. 

So it depends on your politics. The government are giving more money to the nhs (Whoohoo, up with the tories) but it’s only to cover their backs if we brexit with no deal (boo hiss, down with the tories)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My local MP is also one of the seven. Ben Bradshaw. I don't think he's a Corbyn fan though.
> 
> However the NHS are preparing.  They've ordered new ambulances with money the government gave them, which you can view as good or bad, depending on your POV. Good, there's enough money to buy new ambulances. Bad, they're made in Germany, not the U.K., where we make luxury cars for Indian based corporations instead. Good and bad there'll be more ambulances to collect the sick and injured and for people to queue outside hospitals in. Bad it's all the fault of Brexit that they're even needed and they're only being ordered because when the ports shut down we won't be able to get any more.
> 
> So it depends on your politics. The government are giving more money to the nhs (Whoohoo, up with the tories) but it's only to cover their backs if we brexit with no deal (boo hiss, down with the tories)


Hope they stock pile the crew for those ambulances ... if the paramedics needed happen to be from EU.....


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> My local MP is also one of the seven. Ben Bradshaw. I don't think he's a Corbyn fan though.
> 
> However the NHS are preparing.  They've ordered new ambulances with money the government gave them, which you can view as good or bad, depending on your POV. Good, there's enough money to buy new ambulances. Bad, they're made in Germany, not the U.K., where we make luxury cars for Indian based corporations instead. Good and bad there'll be more ambulances to collect the sick and injured and for people to queue outside hospitals in. Bad it's all the fault of Brexit that they're even needed and they're only being ordered because when the ports shut down we won't be able to get any more.
> 
> So it depends on your politics. The government are giving more money to the nhs (Whoohoo, up with the tories) but it's only to cover their backs if we brexit with no deal (boo hiss, down with the tories)


I'm well aware we're stockpiling ambulances now (I posted about it this morning, see below), baffling to think some might see this is good news though Maybe they dont get that this is an act of self harm & we dont have to leave? Maybe they dont realise no deal or hard brexit will be catastrophic for our NHS? A health service they and their loved ones most likely depend on when they're ill?.

Of course the NHS are making some preparations, but there is still a massive uncertainty they need clarification.

Can you provide references to show the government are giving more money to buy the ambulances Elles, as it doesnt say that on my link.

Reaction from one of the many Drs on twitter blowing their tops!

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford 7h7 hours ago

*
BREAKING: The NHS is literally stockpiling *ambulances* for fear of post-Brexit shortages. Right here. Right now.

When the NHS should be focussed on winter.

You didn't put that on your duplicitous, cynical, self-serving bus, did you, "Bojo"?*



noushka05 said:


> Brexit the gift that keeps on giving.
> 
> *NHS Against Brexit*‏ @NHSvBrexit 2h2 hours ago
> 
> *BREAKING NEWS:* Ambulances are being stockpiled now. Yes, *AMBULANCES*.
> If anyone's still positive about the prospect of Brexit, you might want to give this article a read
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...nces-amid-brexit-shortage-fears-a3947276.html


----------



## Elles

The government gave them an extra 36ish million to buy 250ish ambulances a couple/few months ago iirc. I’d have to google it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I've started watching Michael Palin in North Korea.
> 
> What's odd is if you watch the news filming in the U.K., the majority seem to be overweight, in Korea they're nearly all slim, apart from Kim Yong.


I watched the first episode on catch up last night. It was very good. Those pesky minders he has though. The majority of people he met where happy to speak English as well. The party they had in the woods. Very different to what you see on the news.

Kim is fat because he is lazy whilst the rest of the nation has to exercise. He is a smoker as well aparently.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The government gave them an extra 36ish million to buy 250ish ambulances a couple/few months ago iirc. I'd have to google it.


Obviously this https://www.gov.uk/government/news/multi-million-pound-investment-in-new-ambulances-for-the-nhs isnt for the extra 112 ambulances they're having to buy to 'stockpile'. Have you references to show the government are providing the extra £9 million for them, please?.


----------



## noushka05

More great news for our NHS.

Who can blame them for leaving? They clearly don't feel welcome here anymore.

*EU nationals leaving NHS in rising numbers*

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/eu-nationals-leaving-nhs-in-rising-numbers/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Email circulating from Conservative Party.


























Had no emails from Labour yet.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Elles

No I can’t, sorry. I presumed they are keeping back some of the ambulances ordered as part of the extras, not paying out of their own pockets? However it’s done, one minute they are being criticised for having taken no action in case there is a no deal, then they are criticised for taking action in case there is no deal. 

What do people want? Action, or inaction?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> *No I can't, sorry*. I presumed they are keeping back some of the ambulances ordered as part of the extras, not paying out of their own pockets? However it's done, one minute they are being criticised for having taken no action in case there is a no deal, then they are criticised for taking action in case there is no deal.
> 
> What do people want? Action, or inaction?


I thought as much.

Well I know want. I want certainty that brexit wont destroy our NHS. I want certainty that people will get the medicine they need - when they need them. And having to stockpile doesn't exactly reassure me. Stockpiles run out. And some medicines have a short shelf life so cannot be stockpiled. This is quite literally going to be a life or death situation for some people.

Do you think this man feels reassured knowing we're in a situation of our own making where lifesaving medicines are now having to be stockpiled? Try imagining how you'd feel if you were in his shoes.

_I mean, for me, Brexit is quite simple. If you cause a no deal exit, and Insulin runs out, and anything happens to my 7 year old daughter with Type 1 diabetes,
I will tear everything that's left down brick by f****** brick until it's dust.
Quite, quite simple_


----------



## Elles

Noush, do you really think that Brexit is responsible for the current state of the nhs? What makes me angry is that there would be plenty of insulin for sufferers of type 1 diabetes, if people like one of my friends and a relative weren’t size 26+ and suffering type 2 because of the way our society has progressed.

Brexit or no Brexit, we simply can’t keep up. Hospitals in Europe have the same problems. 

It may be that Brexit isn’t the answer, but neither is staying in. We need real change. This is just window dressing. The nhs will not be good enough, whether Brexit makes it worse, or makes it better, even if we have a complete change in government.

Imho.

On saying that, no deal will isolate us totally and make us another North Korea. Not going to happen. There will be deals of some kind, if we even leave the Eu.

ETA: Oh and I’m lucky. I have money put back for assisted suicide abroad if I become too ill to take care of myself and need expensive treatments and drugs to keep me alive.


----------



## cheekyscrip

On our dog charity front: the shelter is in Spain. Volunteers who walk them are in Gibraltar or work in Gibraltar. Mostly Gibraltarians and Brits and Germans. Frontier crossing might be a problem. 
Food and stuff donations come from Gibraltar. How to get them across?

Dogs are taken to " meet and greet " events in Gibraltar. How would they cross?

If people have to go away or donating dries up? This provides money to take the dogs from killing stations and put them in private kennels then volunteers try to find them homes locally or in Germany or Finland... Sometime even UK.

Such a little niggle... but the shelter has 700 plus dogs...
During the floods last year Gibraltar helped to foster poor dogs and cats that survived, helped to replace lost food, beddings and vet supplies. Some dogs and cats just stayed with their fosters forever.

Hard border will make it so much harder.

We are stockpiling too ... Must register the charity in Spain else it might not be recognized after Brexit.

Little worries , just some homeless dogs that 
have fewer chances for adoption. A drop in the sea...
They still have a hope... they don't know.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God. After Corbyn's pathetic efforts Boris Johnson comes up with another, yet to be negotiated, Brexit plan to rival Theresa May's own dead in the water one she delusionally continues to believe in.

Then, Boris proposes the super "Canada" plan. More super cherry picking no doubt. Just what do these politicians not understand when they're repeatedly told NO CHERRYPICKING!!!

Still, it'll be great to see how divided the Tories will be next week.

I know I am a remainer so I will be biased.

Just call the whole bl***y Brexit thing off!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45673214


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Noush, do you really think that Brexit is responsible for the current state of the nhs? What makes me angry is that there would be plenty of insulin for sufferers of type 1 diabetes, if people like one of my friends and a relative weren't size 26+ and suffering type 2 because of the way our society has progressed.
> 
> Brexit or no Brexit, we simply can't keep up. Hospitals in Europe have the same problems.
> 
> It may be that Brexit isn't the answer, but neither is staying in. We need real change. This is just window dressing. The nhs will not be good enough, whether Brexit makes it worse, or makes it better, even if we have a complete change in government.
> 
> Imho.
> 
> On saying that, no deal will isolate us totally and make us another North Korea. Not going to happen. There will be deals of some kind, if we even leave the Eu.
> 
> ETA: Oh and I'm lucky. I have money put back for assisted suicide abroad if I become too ill to take care of myself and need expensive treatments and drugs to keep me alive.


I know exactly what is responsible for the *current *state of our NHS. Deliberate underfunding and privatisation by government - AND brexit. Yes even before we leave we know brexit is having a terrible impact on our health service. And we know from the impact studies *all *brexit scenarios will be damaging to our *already* crippled NHS. We know a hard deal or a no deal will be potentially catastrophic. I know/have known a fair number of people with type 2 diabetes - non of them needed insulin. And your deflection tactic wouldnt hold water even if most type 2 diabetics did require insulin. So are you saying you cant understand the man with the diabetic 7 year old being distressed at the prospect no deal might leave his daughter with life saving insulin she needs?

The tories spend far less per GDP on our health then other countries - yet we are one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. Life expectancy is now stalling and falling for the first time in the uk.

I agree we need change. Change for the better is going to be so much harder, if not impossible, under a regressive, authoritarian hard right government who are intent on shackling us to the bloated corpse of corporate America.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> On saying that, no deal will isolate us totally and make us another North Korea. Not going to happen. There will be deals of some kind, if we even leave the Eu.


In a sense, I agree with that as far as closer ties with the US is concerned but the Berlin Wall was proof a country could completely isolate itself from another.

This is so very sad. IMHO the UK already "enjoys" a far too close relationship with the US as it is.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370000


Reading the last sentence, since when did NI and Scotland agree to May's Chequers plan she argues will keep the UK intact?

I've heard nothing from the SNP, Sinn Fein nor even the DUP that remotely suggests this.

May is completely deluded.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> In a sense, I agree with that as far as closer ties with the US is concerned but the Berlin Wall was proof a country could completely isolate itself from another.
> 
> This is so very sad. IMHO the UK already "enjoys" a far too close relationship with the US as it is.


The tories are also voted to defend Hungarys anti-semitic regime. They are dragging the UKs reputation through the dirt with their own!

Henry Mance
_Here's the transcript - Michael Gove argues that criticising Viktor Orban's anti-Semitism would
jeopardise "the best deal for Britain as we leave the European Union._


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> May is completely deluded


It seems to be her way to just keep repeating something in the hope that eventually people believe it or it somehow magically happens. It's how she operated in the election campaign - stayed away from the public and kept repeating her 'strong and stable' mantra. If she were an actor she'd be the type who never read reviews.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I meant changing your mind....


Oh in that case.
No won't be doing that. 
So in light of you clearing this up I shall unlike that post


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Email circulating from Conservative Party.
> 
> View attachment 369974
> 
> View attachment 369975
> 
> View attachment 369976
> 
> 
> Had no emails from Labour yet.


Can't help thinking this might not be the most unbiased communication I've seen!


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> It seems to be her way to just keep repeating something in the hope that eventually people believe it or it somehow magically happens. It's how she operated in the election campaign - stayed away from the public and kept repeating her 'strong and stable' mantra. If she were an actor she'd be the type who never read reviews.


When you have nothing else to offer empty vacuous slogans are an effective campaigning tool - unbelievably. Brexit means brexit, red white and blue brexit, what ever happened to the 'jobs first brexit? We havent heard that one for a while, wonder why?

Anyway, heres to strong & stable.

:Bag


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Dear God. After Corbyn's pathetic efforts Boris Johnson comes up with another, yet to be negotiated, Brexit plan to rival Theresa May's own dead in the water one she delusionally continues to believe in.
> 
> Then, Boris proposes the super "Canada" plan. More super cherry picking no doubt. Just what do these politicians not understand when they're repeatedly told NO CHERRYPICKING!!!
> 
> Still, it'll be great to see how divided the Tories will be next week.
> 
> I know I am a remainer so I will be biased.
> 
> Just call the whole bl***y Brexit thing off!
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45673214
> View attachment 370000


The problem with Boris is that he is attractively enthusiastic on the 'helicopter view' of things, and doesn't bother himself with the details. He ignores them instead. Hence, technology can probably deal with the majority of border issues, as it does in places like Norway / Sweden and USA / Canada. But it doesn't deal with ALL of them, and that leaves the requirement for infrastructure and (occasional) checks. And it doesn't really deal with livestock in a field with a border going through it.

But as far as the front page of the Telegraph and a large slice of the public, neither of which are bothered about detail, are concerned, it all sounds great. Go Boris! Why don't we do that!? The fact that it doesn't work anywhere else and won't work in Ireland, where the requirements are much more complicated, is conveniently overlooked.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> The problem with Boris is that he is attractively enthusiastic on the 'helicopter view' of things, and doesn't bother himself with the details. He ignores them instead


It must drive May mad that he gets all the best soundbites


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> It must drive May mad that he gets all the best soundbites


It drives me mad that he has a shop window on the front page of the Telegraph for his leadership bid, and gets paid 250k for using it!


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> It drives me mad that he has a shop window on the front page of the Telegraph for his leadership bid, and gets paid 250k for using it!


What - you are questioning our even handed and unbiased fourth estate?


----------



## kirksandallchins

Watching some of Question Time last night, I got fed up of people saying they were miinformed/lied to about Brexit and demanding another refurendum. 

If we did that after every general election when politicians had lied to us, virtually no government would have lasted more than a few months. Its a bad precedent to set, especially when they added that people who were to young to vote then should have a say now.


----------



## havoc

kirksandallchins said:


> If we did that after every general election when politicians had lied to us, virtually no government would have lasted more than a few months.


Well we do exactly that anytime up to five years after every election - the country does get the chance to change its mind.

I'm not in favour of another referendum btw. I think we're screwed every which way round now anyway.


----------



## Arnie83

kirksandallchins said:


> Watching some of Question Time last night, I got fed up of people saying they were miinformed/lied to about Brexit and demanding another refurendum.
> 
> If we did that after every general election when politicians had lied to us, virtually no government would have lasted more than a few months. Its a bad precedent to set, especially when they added that people who were to young to vote then should have a say now.


I think it is a sad reflection on our democracy if people accept that it is okay for politicians to misinform and lie to them with no repercussions.

But I would support a new referendum not as a comeback against the disingenuous campaigns but because so much has changed since 2016 that only an ideologue would argue that it isn't justified.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> But I would support a new referendum not as a comeback against the disingenuous campaigns but because so much has changed since 2016 that only an ideologue would argue that it isn't justified.


I get this - I'm not so sure it would make a difference. Anyone I know who voted leave is deeply entrenched in justifying their decision rather than looking at what they thought they were voting for against the reality. This includes someone who has built a very lucrative lifestyle business on ebay which relies on buying cheap in one EU country and selling here and in others where the product is valued more.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> I get this - I'm not so sure it would make a difference. Anyone I know who voted leave is deeply entrenched in justifying their decision rather than looking at what they thought they were voting for against the reality. This includes someone who has built a very lucrative lifestyle business on ebay which relies on buying cheap in one EU country and selling here and in others where the product is valued more.


Couldn't agree more.

The tribal antagonism that led to some* of the leave votes first time round has inevitably manifested itself in the ongoing Leave and Remain camps. If there was another referendum I would probably put money on a No Deal Brexit beating Call It All Off, despite the economic damage that people surely recognise such a choice would cause.

I still think there should be one, though, for the sake of democracy.

* More than a few, less than a lot


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I still think there should be one, though, for the sake of democracy.


Yeah OK. Still think there would be a lot of turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## noushka05

Labours Shadow Minister on the realities of brexit on the Irish border. "_ this is life & death for the people of Ireland*_

Surely to goodness no leaver really wants brexit no matter the cost?


----------



## noushka05

kirksandallchins said:


> Watching some of Question Time last night, I got fed up of people saying they were miinformed/lied to about Brexit and demanding another refurendum.
> 
> If we did that after every general election when politicians had lied to us, virtually no government would have lasted more than a few months. Its a bad precedent to set, especially when they added that people who were to young to vote then should have a say now.


Just to add to what Havoc and Arnie have said. The young generation are the ones who are going to suffer the most from us leaving the EU. 75% of 18-24 year olds voted to Remain while 16/17 yr olds werent allowed a vote, yet they will disproportionately bear the cost of a decision which they do not want.


----------



## havoc

noushka05 said:


> Surely to goodness no leaver really wants brexit no matter the cost?


They do because they have a complete disconnect between the 'big' ideas and the reality of how it will affect them as individuals. They talk about 'the economy' as if they aren't part of it. They talk about control of our borders as if that control won't affect them - probably because some* really meant stopping immigration but don't want to say so. It never crossed their minds that they too would be subject to any rules/controls/restrictions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

People will only release they were duped when it hits home. Not until it lands in their doorstep. 
When they lose jobs and when prices will go up, along with shortages of necessities then will be a huge outcry and this is what cynical Corbyn counts on.
People will turn on EU , on Tories and on any immigrants still there ( better offload frustration on “ others “).

People vote with their stomachs.
Until then.. who cares about Irish and Gibraltar!


----------



## KittenKong

kirksandallchins said:


> Watching some of Question Time last night, I got fed up of people saying they were miinformed/lied to about Brexit and demanding another refurendum.
> 
> If we did that after every general election when politicians had lied to us, virtually no government would have lasted more than a few months. Its a bad precedent to set, especially when they added that people who were to young to vote then should have a say now.


The difference is that General Elections happen at least every five years.

The difference is the people who were sold Brexit aren't getting the Brexit they voted for, whether it was for €350m for the NHS, to prevent an influx of Turkey's population as they lied about them joining the EU and much much more.

Even those who are itching for No Deal might not get that seeing parliament may well vote against it.

So what do we have? May's unworkable plan she continues to pursue despite being rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike, let alone in the EU. She humiliated herself by ignoring the advice from those in her own party then comes on National TV whinging they're disrespecting her.

Naturally, some who openly rejected her plan rally around in offering support.

Yet not one has commented how they would have felt had the EU agreed to her personal proposal. Remember, David Davis and Boris Johnson resigned over it.

Then Corbyn's plan. Staying in the CU is certainly a way of avoiding a hard border with Ireland (outright rejected by May), yet is more cherry picking bile otherwise.

The JRM Canada+ "rival" plan and now Boris Johnson's newly announced one.

And just six months left with so many different plans with one thing in common. Cherrypicking.

Seeing the politicians on both sides of the house have been completely useless it's time to let the people decide again including the option to remain and no deal.

If no deal won a good majority in such a vote, and indeed vice verse MP's wouldn't need to vote on it and respect that as the "Will of the People".

Whatever people's views on the meaning of that and whether one backs leaving or remaining in the EU, I'm sure we can all agree that TM's Chequers plan is NOT the will of the people regardless how many times May bleats on that it is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> who cares about Irish and Gibraltar!


You missed off Scotland.

Any how I am thinking about Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar. You are part of the UK and will be remaining so and leaving with us.


----------



## Arnie83

Why can't we let Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar stay in the EU and leave the UK instead?

Just a thought.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Yeah OK. Still think there would be a lot of turkeys voting for Christmas.


I must be a Turkey :Wideyed

Don't like Christmas but like the way things are going so far............


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I must be a Turkey :Wideyed
> 
> Don't like Christmas but like the way things are going so far............


You really like the way it appears to be heading for 'No Deal'?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Why can't we let Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar stay in the EU and leave the UK instead?
> 
> Just a thought.


Been saying that for ages.

On another forum where a Brexiter uses the Leave Means Leave logo as his avatar I showed him nothing but respect when he suggested he didn't care if the UK broke up as long as England Brexits.

Suggesting Gibraltar is part of the UK doesn't suggest Theresa May is PM there, whatever she thinks.

Likewise in Scotland etc.


----------



## stuaz

Arnie83 said:


> Why can't we let Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar stay in the EU and leave the UK instead?
> 
> Just a thought.


With the exception of Gibraltar which is more linked to the Spanish economy, it is my understanding the other countries bulk of trade is with England so with barriers between England and Scotland (as an example) would cause probably cause more expense for both countries.

Not to mention it would likely be the firing pistol for the break up of the UK which would be a shame.



KittenKong said:


> On another forum where a Brexiter uses the Leave Means Leave logo as his avatar I showed him nothing but respect when he suggested he didn't care if the UK broke up as long as England Brexits.


I asked someone I know who voted Leave, was he prepared to lose his job "for Brexit". He said yes. I asked what about his wife's job? His daughters job? His brothers job? His friends jobs? His answer was yes to all of them. I just couldn't understand his logic, his justification.... really baffled me.


----------



## Elles

Self sacrifice for the greater good I expect. I would think that if people believe that leaving the Eu is better for everyone in the long run and the next generation will benefit, they are prepared to make sacrifices. It’s why people fought (fight) in wars.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Self sacrifice for the greater good I expect.


What greater good? Who benefits if there are job losses throughout generations of families?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Email circulating from Conservative Party.
> 
> View attachment 369974
> 
> View attachment 369975
> 
> View attachment 369976
> 
> Had no emails from Labour yet.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> What greater good? Who benefits if there are job losses throughout generations of families?


Depends on your outlook. Some people think leaving the Eu will be a disaster, some think it will be for the better. Even the worst predictions still say we'll all see the benefit in 50 years or so and I haven't seen anyone saying we won't, which means eventually, long term, in a few decades, brexit will have been for the best after all.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


>


Ah students are far more informed and than you give them credit for @kimthecat . Its people who fall for the anti Socialism spin pumped out by right wing politicians & their propaganda vehicles( ie the Mail, Sun, Express - Fox news  and so on) who are the gullible ones  .

Hope this helps






The right in America use the same tactics to undermine socialism & Bernie Sanders. They are terrified of a socialist government which will curtail their greed.



Elles said:


> Depends on your outlook. Some people think leaving the Eu will be a disaster, some think it will be for the better. Even the worst predictions still say we'll all see the benefit in 50 years or so and I haven't seen anyone saying we won't, which means eventually, long term, in a few decades, brexit will have been for the best after all.


The consensual position of experts in ALL area is it will be a disaster. And it was Rees mogg who said 50 years. But putting aside jobs and the economy. Take the urgent radical action required to tackle climate breakdown - the GREATEST threat we face, how will leaving the EU benefit this in the 'long term' when we have only a narrow window of opportunity to address it?  How will decades of environmental destruction benefit us in the long term? How will leaving the EU ever benefit the peace in Ireland? How will leaving the EU benefit our NHS in the long term? The ultra brexiteers are gambling with peoples lives. Don't they ever look at the wider picture?


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> They do because they have a complete disconnect between the 'big' ideas and the reality of how it will affect them as individuals. They talk about 'the economy' as if they aren't part of it. They talk about control of our borders as if that control won't affect them - probably because some* really meant stopping immigration but don't want to say so. It never crossed their minds that they too would be subject to any rules/controls/restrictions.


There does seem to be a massive disconnect. I've lost count of the number of leave supporters who've told me 'we won, get over it'. It appears to me that 'winning' is all that matters to these people. They just can't see that in reality we've all lost.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> You really like the way it appears to be heading for 'No Deal'?


That's how you see it not how I do


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Depends on your outlook. Some people think leaving the Eu will be a disaster, some think it will be for the better. *Even the worst predictions still say we'll all see the benefit in 50 years or so *and I haven't seen anyone saying we won't, which means eventually, long term, in a few decades, brexit will have been for the best after all.


Woah there! 

I haven't seen anyone except Rees-Mogg say that, and in his case it was that we wouldn't see the full benefits for maybe 50 years.

There is absolutely no way on our little green earth that anyone with even a basic understanding would make economic predictions 50 years in the future.

There is a chance that in 50 years we will be forging ahead of where we would otherwise have been, but it would require something to happen that no-one is foreseeing at the moment. There is also a chance that we will be the little bunch of islands off Europe that used to be the UK.

The simple fact remains that we are making trade with our biggest market more expensive and difficult. That's a fact. Trade deals with those countries with which we haven't already got them might possibly make up the difference, but *I haven't seen any figures at all* from Leavers (except Minford), or, crucially, from independent bodies suggesting that to be the case; just appeals from Boris & the Mogglodytes to the great British spirit and our innate superiority to make it so, and claims that Trump's America are ready to do a wonderful deal with us.

Any potential upside is optimistic speculation. The increased cost downside *is going to happen*, it is what we are negotiating right now. All that remains speculative is how big it is going to be.

(Hope that doesn't sound too ranty!)


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> That's how you see it not how I do


And how do you see it?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Self sacrifice for the greater good I expect. I would think that if people believe that leaving the Eu is better for everyone in the long run and the next generation will benefit, they are prepared to make sacrifices. It's why people fought (fight) in wars.


Add the analogy of such wartime self sacrifice to the fifty year 'prediction' and the result would be the equivalent of everyone under sixty and every child born for the next 32 years being conscripted. That's hardly 'self' sacrifice.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Depends on your outlook. Some people think leaving the Eu will be a disaster, some think it will be for the better. Even the worst predictions still say we'll all see the benefit in 50 years or so and I haven't seen anyone saying we won't, which means eventually, long term, in a few decades, brexit will have been for the best after all.


To many, including myself, even if Brexit made everyone richer and the unicorns promised by the Leave campaign became a reality I still wouldn't back it under any circumstances.

We value our European citizenship and all that comes with it being stripped from us against our wishes.

Being in the EU didn't make the UK any less British. Ironically it probably helped keep the UK intact seeing the result of the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum when Brexit wasn't even thought of.

The irony of that and significant to the No victory was an independent Scotland would have to apply for EU membership as an independent country.

Now it joins Gibraltar and NI in being forced out of the EU against its wishes and they're told to get over it!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Toyota aren't happy if we have a no deal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45676633


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> You missed off Scotland.
> 
> Any how I am thinking about Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar. You are part of the UK and will be remaining so and leaving with us.


Hmm.. any idea how we will survive without jobs?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hmm.. any idea how we will survive without jobs?


Sure. Turn Gibraltar into a UK holiday resort.


----------



## Arnie83

Just polling, by Sky Data this time, but the direction of travel is clear ...

Sky Data has also been asking a set of questions about Brexit since November 2016, in order to track views on the issue.

This shows the British public becoming increasingly pessimistic about the prospect of Brexit across a range issues, with the proportion saying Brexit will be bad for themselves personally (up 11 points from 28% in 2016 to 39% now), for the economy (up nine points from 39% to 48%) and for the country overall (up seven points from 38% to 45%).

People support holding a referendum choosing between leaving the EU on the terms suggested by the government, leaving the EU with no deal, or staying in the EU by 50% to 39% opposed.

And in such a referendum, staying in the EU would be the most popular of the three options on 43%, with 28% backing leaving the EU with no deal, and 15% supporting the government's proposal.

In a final round, people would now vote to remain in the EU over a no-deal Brexit by 55% to 45%.​


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Just polling, by Sky Data this time, but the direction of travel is clear ...
> 
> Sky Data has also been asking a set of questions about Brexit since November 2016, in order to track views on the issue.
> 
> This shows the British public becoming increasingly pessimistic about the prospect of Brexit across a range issues, with the proportion saying Brexit will be bad for themselves personally (up 11 points from 28% in 2016 to 39% now), for the economy (up nine points from 39% to 48%) and for the country overall (up seven points from 38% to 45%).
> 
> People support holding a referendum choosing between leaving the EU on the terms suggested by the government, leaving the EU with no deal, or staying in the EU by 50% to 39% opposed.
> 
> And in such a referendum, staying in the EU would be the most popular of the three options on 43%, with 28% backing leaving the EU with no deal, and 15% supporting the government's proposal.
> 
> In a final round, people would now vote to remain in the EU over a no-deal Brexit by 55% to 45%.​


The problem with the independent polls like this one they never say how many people they asked. For all we know 10 people were chosen. I have never been asked to enter one of these polls so they are not very accurate.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem with the independent polls like this one they never say how many people they asked. For all we know 10 people were chosen. I have never been asked to enter one of these polls so they are not very accurate.


*"Sky Data interviewed a nationally representative sample of 1,070 Sky customers interviewed 10-11 September 2018 online. Data are weighted to the profile of the population. Sky Data is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules."*


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> *"Sky Data interviewed a nationally representative sample of 1,070 Sky customers interviewed 10-11 September 2018 online. Data are weighted to the profile of the population. Sky Data is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules."*


I'm sure it was properly done. Um , If they've only asked Sky customers do you think that's representative of the population?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I'm sure it was properly done. Um , If they've only asked Sky customers do you think that's representative of the population?


They say it was "nationally representative" but I'm no expert.

I think all I could say with confidence is that the views of Sky customers have moved pretty significantly over the last couple of years.

If Sky customers are all a bunch of weirdos then I guess we can ignore them! 

(Though even Sky customers will get a vote should it come to that)


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> They say it was "nationally representative" but I'm no expert.
> 
> I think all I could say with confidence is that the views of Sky customers have moved pretty significantly over the last couple of years.
> 
> If Sky customers are all a bunch of weirdos then I guess we can ignore them!
> 
> (Though even Sky customers will get a vote should it come to that)



TBH I would expect percentages to rise because of the terrible mess that's being made of Brexit .

I refuse to pay for TV , but if I did decide to fork out I'd be a Virgin customer. I'm sure you can't get weirder than RIchard Branson !


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *"Sky Data interviewed a nationally representative sample of 1,070 Sky customers interviewed 10-11 September 2018 online. Data are weighted to the profile of the population. Sky Data is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules."*


So.
Why you highlighting it in bold?

Doesn't represent naff.
Still waiting to be asked to enter one of these polls.

1,070 people don't exactly give an exact poll as it is not how everyone feels in the whole of the UK population.

Sorry but these polls are from a select amount of people and don't represent the whole population of the UK. 1,070 people is but a small portion of people, more than that live in in Stockwell in London (Large inner City District with a population of 318,000).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So.
> Why you highlighting it in bold?
> 
> Doesn't represent naff.
> Still waiting to be asked to enter one of these polls.
> 
> 1,070 people don't exactly give an exact poll as it is not how everyone feels in the whole of the UK population.
> 
> Sorry but these polls are from a select amount of peopme and don't represent the whole population of the UK. 1,070 people is but a small portion of people, more than that live in Abingdon in Oxford or in Stockwell in London.


Sky Data highlighted it in bold at the end of their piece. I merely copied and pasted it without considering its effect on you. Apologies.

Apparently, to give a confidence level of 95% with a confidence interval of 3% and a population of 65,000,000 you need a sample size of 1067.

But like I said, it shows the direction of travel. I appreciate that it isn't yours.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Sky Data highlighted it in bold at the end of their piece. I merely copied and pasted it without considering its effect on you. Apologies.


I thought you was shouting to get your point across that's all.


> Apparently, to give a confidence level of 95% with a confidence interval of 3% and a population of 65,000,000 you need a sample size of 1067.


Yes but let's remember how misleading these polls are as they are from a select group of people. On the day before and on the day of the referendum 2016 all the polls were 80 or 90 percent certain remain would win. The polls indicated this, the UK public proved the polls wrong.


> But like I said, it shows the direction of travel. I appreciate that it isn't yours.


If you are pinning your hopes on independent polls and surveys I feel sorry for you.


----------



## havoc

For anyone who doesn't understand the issues with the NI border Paddy Kielty has conveniently tried to explain things so even someone as stupid as Boris can understand.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/patrick-kielty-hits-out-boris-15215672
It's been reported all over the place, I've hopefully linked to one which has fewer ads and rubbish to scroll past.


----------



## KittenKong

Been a surprising number of "celebs" backing calls for a People's Vote, now we hear Rod Stewart is the latest to back it.

I can count on one hand the Brexit backing ones I know of: Michael Caine, Ian Botham, Geoffrey Boycott, Roger Daltrey and John Cleese although I hear Cleese leaving the country as he doesn't like what's happening to the UK.....

So, four I know of at least.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but let's remember how misleading these polls are as they are from a select group of people. On the day before and on the day of the referendum 2016 all the polls were 80 or 90 percent certain remain would win. The polls indicated this, the UK public proved the polls wrong.
> If you are pinning your hopes on independent polls and surveys I feel sorry for you.


Hopefully, May will be taking note of the polls, in which political parties put a lot of store, conducting many themselves. And with a steady drip of Tory MPs calling for a People's Vote, who knows what might happen.

As for my hopes; I've said before that they were dashed when the British people voted to reinforce the boundaries between our composite country and the supranational EU, a body the like of which I hope represents a better future for mankind.

I do have a hope that the electorate will get a first chance to vote with the facts in front of them, which is looking ever more likely. But if they then choose isolation, then they will have to lie on the bed they will have made, and I will shed no tears for them.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I do have a hope that the electorate will get a first chance to vote with the facts in front of them, which is looking ever more likely. But if they then choose isolation, then they will have to lie on the bed they will have made, and I will shed no tears for them.


Understand this completely. I've been described as a 'benevolent capitalist' but I too feel less and less benevolent as this goes on. To hell with workers rights, to hell with an increased cost of living, to hell with what it means to those who struggle. If the will of the people is that this country pulls up its drawbridge then I'm ready to pull up my own and ensure I keep as much as possible for me and mine.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

This speaks for its self


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 370201
> 
> This speaks for its self


Interesting that only 18% would be happy with No Deal.

And that only 41% would be unhappy if we Remained.

Very encouraging, really. But then it's only a poll.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting that only 18% would be happy with No Deal.
> 
> And that only 41% would be unhappy if we Remained.
> 
> Quite encouraging, really.


Why encouraging?

Only 39% were happy if we remained. Again remain lose.

The polls could be done until kingdom come and still we'd vote to leave regardless how slim the majority is.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Why encouraging?
> Only 39% were happy if we remained. Again remain lose.


And why encouraging only 18% want no deal?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Been a surprising number of "celebs" backing calls for a People's Vote, now we hear Rod Stewart is the latest to back it.
> 
> I can count on one hand the Brexit backing ones I know of: Michael Caine, Ian Botham, Geoffrey Boycott, Roger Daltrey and John Cleese although I hear Cleese leaving the country as he doesn't like what's happening to the UK.....
> 
> So, four I know of at least.


Why is this of any relevance?

Are celebs opinions any more important than anyone else?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> And why encouraging only 18% want no deal?


I didn't say it was @Arnie83 said it was.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Why encouraging?
> 
> Only 39% were happy if we remained. Again remain lose.
> 
> The polls could be done until kingdom come and still we'd vote to leave regardless how slim the majority is.


Of all the options, the most popular was Remain. The highest among the "Happy" figures. Admittedly, 41% would be unhappy, but that's a lot less than the 52% who voted to Leave.

And the No Deal Brexit being pushed by some has easily the highest "Unhappy" figure.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Of all the options, the most popular was Remain. The highest among the "Happy" figures. Admittedly, *41% would be unhappy, but that's a lot less than the 52% who voted to Leave.*


Of course the percentage is going to be lower it is an online independent poll from a select amount of people. Not everyone in the whole of the UK took part. I am pretty sure that the percentage would be alot higher than 41% if everyone in the country was asked to take part in this independent poll. A select amount of people could be anything from 5 to 1,070 people or maybe 5,000 people which doesn't really reflect the whole country don't you get that and you claim to understand all this.


----------



## KittenKong

The poll says 39% would be unhappy if the UK ends up staying in the EU yet 54% would be unhappy if the UK leaves with no deal!

Hardly an encouraging poll and only goes to show how divided the UK is on the matter.

Seeing 39% would be unhappy if the UK remains in the EU yet only 18% would be happy with no deal which of the 21% prefer remain to leave with no deal and vice versa?

How many of the 54% would prefer remaining to no deal?

I take polls with a pinch of salt nowadays to be honest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

All the moaning, repeating scaremongering rubbish from Cameron's project fear campaign isn't going to change peoples minds. Yes there are some students who want to remain because they don't understand the EU. Sir William Nigel Paul Cash described the EU perfectly on Sky News this morning. Respect to him.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The poll says 39% would be unhappy if the UK ends up staying in the EU yet 54% would be unhappy if the UK leaves with no deal!
> 
> Hardly an encouraging poll and only goes to show how divided the UK is on the matter.
> 
> Seeing 39% would be unhappy if the UK remains in the EU yet only 18% would be happy with no deal which of the 21% prefer remain to leave with no deal and vice versa?
> 
> How many of the 54% would prefer remaining to no deal?
> 
> I take polls with a pinch of salt nowadays to be honest.


I could quiet easily rip the remain polls to bits but choose not to. Sad the way some remainers act.


----------



## stockwellcat.

As one of the posters to a news article I read this morning said is so true.

Some remainers are panicking and cannot produce anything postive to say about staying in the EU or give a good reason to and instead spout negative things like doom and gloom.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> All the moaning, repeating scaremongering rubbish from Cameron's project fear campaign isn't going to change peoples minds. Yes there are some students who want to remain because they don't understand the EU. Sir William Nigel Paul Cash described the EU perfectly on Sky News this morning. Respect to him.


Cameron's "Project Fear" is now irrelevant.

Nowadays it's the government's own variant in the hope of gathering public support for May's personal Brexit plan she refuses to move on from despite its rejection en masse.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Cameron's "Project Fear" is now irrelevant.


It's 2 years on. He is no longer leader. So nothing he said is reliavant. I have been told that on here repeatedely so fired back at you.


> Nowadays it's the government's own variant in the hope of gathering public support for May's personal Brexit plan she refuses to move on from despite its rejection en masse.....


Well let's see what happens at the Conservative Conference. The Choice is May's Deal, Boris Johnsons Super Canada Deal, JRM's Canada Plus Plus Deal or No Deal. Let's see if they hold a vote on this at the Conference.

I think Jeremy Corbyn's fantasy Brexit will be topic of discussion to which Michel Barnier refused to make comment on and instead Jermey's plans set the whole of the European Union in a frenzy to prepare for a no deal. Well done Labour.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> As one of the posters to a news article I read this morning said is so true.
> 
> Some remainers are panicking and cannot produce anything postive to say about staying in the EU or give a good reason to and instead spout negative things like doom and gloom.


I don't think it's only Remainers who are panicking. So many versions of Brexit "deals". May has already rejected alternatives to her own dead duck proposal. All would rightly be rejected by the EU as well as none show any respect towards their four freedoms. That goes for Corbyn too incidentally.



stockwellcat. said:


> It's 2 years on. He is no longer leader. So nothing he said is reliavant. I have been told that on here repeatedely so fired back at you.
> Well let's see what happens at the Conservative Conference. The Choice is May's Deal, Boris Johnsons Super Canada Deal, JRM's Canada Plus Plus Deal or No Deal. Let's see if they hold a vote on this at the Conference.
> 
> I think Jeremy Corbyn's fantasy Brexit will be topic of discussion to which Michel Barnier refused to make comment on and instead Jermey's plans set the whole of the European Union in a frenzy to prepare for a no deal. Well done Labour.


But didn't you recently argue the Brexit vote would be set in stone with no further referendums on the matter because Cameron said so?!

It looks most likely they'll be two options, Remain in the EU or no deal.
Parliament could well reject the latter as a "best possible deal" was promised.

Looking at the Government's own website doesn't bring exactly good outcomes for a no deal either.

Yes, let's watch the Tories rip themselves apart with their rival Brexit plans.

And why are you putting the full blame onto Labour? They aren't in government. Nothing would be their fault in opposition.

If you were having a go at the Lib Dems I would understand, seeing they are a true anti Brexit party.

Labour under Corbyn isn't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I don't think it's only Remainers who are panicking. So many versions of Brexit "deals". May has already rejected alternatives to her own dead duck proposal. All would rightly be rejected by the EU as well as none show any respect towards their four freedoms. That goes for Corbyn too incidentally.
> 
> But didn't you recently argue the Brexit vote would be set in stone with no further referendums on the matter because Cameron said so?!
> 
> It looks most likely they'll be two options, Remain in the EU or no deal.
> Parliament could well reject the latter as a "best possible deal" was promised.
> 
> Looking at the Government's own website doesn't bring exactly good outcomes for a no deal either. The government''
> 
> Yes, let's watch the Tories rip themselves apart with their rival Brexit plans.
> 
> And why are you putting the full blame onto Labour? They aren't in government. Nothing would be their fault in opposition.
> 
> If you were having a go at the Lib Dems I would understand, seeing they are a true anti Brexit party.
> 
> Labour under Corbyn isn't.


I will reply with images:-




:Hilarious
:Wideyed
:Stop
:Facepalm
:Finger
:Headphone
:Nailbiting
:Wacky


:Muted
:Cigar









27.8% of the UK public couldn't be bothered voting in their countries future. Shame on you for not being bothered.

And they are in no particular order


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> I will reply with images:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :Hilarious
> :Wideyed
> :Stop
> :Facepalm
> :Finger
> :Headphone
> :Nailbiting
> :Wacky
> 
> 
> :Muted
> :Cigar
> 
> View attachment 370211
> 
> 27.8% of the UK public couldn't be bothered voting in their countries future. Shame on you for not being bothered.
> 
> And they are in no particular order


What evidence do you have that does those that didn`t vote in the referendum choice not to do so because they `couldn`t be bothered`?


----------



## KittenKong

Good grief, yet another Tory with another rival version of Brexit!

The "Better Brexit". Can you believe that?!

Shocking how he humiliates his own leader by not backing her own dead duck version.

The Tory conference will be interesting indeed.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> What evidence do you have that does those that didn`t vote in the referendum choice not to do so because they `couldn`t be bothered`?


Indeed, but hearing ballot papers were spoilt and some voted Leave because they thought it wouldn't win is some evidence to support that

But some will have purposely abstained of course, not due not being bothered but not knowing what the referendum was all about or couldn't care less either way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Good grief can you not read.

There was a 72.2% national turn out for the referendum in 2016 which means 27.8% of people did not bother voting in the referendum.

The spoilt ballot papers etc was counted in the 72.2% national turn out.

Sometime you're hard work because you don't read things and trail off on nonescense.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Of course the percentage is going to be lower it is an online independent poll from a select amount of people. Not everyone in the whole of the UK took part. I am pretty sure that the percentage would be alot higher than 41% if everyone in the country was asked to take part in this independent poll. A select amount of people could be anything from 5 to 1,070 people or maybe 5,000 people which doesn't really reflect the whole country don't you get that and you claim to understand all this.


A smaller sample than the whole population doesn't mean that the percentages will be any different, only that there is a range - probably + / - 3% - within which they are 95% confident of getting it right. That's sort of the point of polls.

But if you are pretty sure that the numbers would be different, then maybe this wasn't the poll that you should have chosen to post.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Good grief can you not read.
> 
> There was a 72.2% national turn out for the referendum in 2016 which means 27.8% of people did not bother voting in the referendum.
> 
> The spoilt ballot papers etc was counted in the 72.2% national turn out.
> 
> Sometime you're hard work because you don't read things and trail off on nonescense.


I agree that a significant number of people couldn't be bothered, but that 72.2% also includes the 'don't know's? There was no option on the ballot paper for that and precious little reliable information available for them to reach a considered opinion.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Good grief can you not read.
> 
> There was a 72.2% national turn out for the referendum in 2016 which means 27.8% of people did not bother voting in the referendum.
> 
> The spoilt ballot papers etc was counted in the 72.2% national turn out.
> 
> Sometime you're hard work because you don't read things and trail off on nonescense.


And repeat.

The referendum was gerrymandered in favour of leave - millions of people were disenfranchised. Practically everything the leave campaign said was a proven lie. And THEY CHEATED. They broke electoral law.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Some remainers are panicking and cannot produce anything postive to say about staying in the EU or give a good reason to *and instead spout negative things like doom and gloom.


Frictionless movement of goods and services in a single marketplace facilitating the largest and most complete free trade area in the world. Negotiated trade deals with dozens of other countries outside the EU.

Together membership and these deals represent 65% of UK exports.

Freedom of movement for workers, students and travellers to live, work and study anywhere across the continent. The workers, with restrictions on benefits, are proven to increase the GDP of the UK even when social services such as schools and NHS are taken into account.

Close cooperation facilitating any number of subjects such as security, research, developments such as Galileo, etc.

Continental solidarity in the face of those who would threaten and seek to divide us, such as Putin's Russia.

An important, almost universally recognised - though not unique - and ongoing contribution to over 70 years of peace on a continent where, in the previous 50 years, millions of people died in wars.

An imperfect template for a future world order where people regard foreigners as relatives rather than strangers, and as teammates rather than competitors to be beaten. Where the shared future is of equal concern to us as that of our own parochial, artificial tribe.

(Other opinions are available.)


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> As one of the posters to a news article I read this morning said is so true.
> *
> Some remainers are panicking and cannot produce anything postive to say about staying in the EU or give a good reason to and instead spout negative things like doom and gloom*.


Good grief.

This is a perfect example of wilful blindness. You have been provided hundreds of 'good reasons' to stay in the EU, SWC. Climate deniers have the same contempt for evidence and experts as you do. Its no coincidence that many of the hard brexiters I've come across are also climate deniers. (as are many of the leave ringleaders - surprise surprise!)


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> And repeat.
> 
> The referendum was gerrymandered in favour of leave - millions of people were disenfranchised. Practically everything the leave campaign said was a proven lie. And THEY CHEATED. They broke electoral law.


It is impossible to gerrymander a national referendum the outcome of which does not depend on electoral boundaries.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> It is impossible to gerrymander a national referendum the outcome of which does not depend on electoral boundaries.


Pedant!

Ok RIGGED in favour leave then. 37% of a RIGGED referendum is not 'the will of the people'.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> It is impossible to gerrymander a national referendum the outcome of which does not depend on electoral boundaries.


Expats?


----------



## KittenKong

Seems I was right. "Back my plan or the UK suffers", does indeed appear to be the latest tactic from TM.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45696015


----------



## stockwellcat.

Good Grief some remainers make it sound like we were marched to the polling booths with guns pointed to our heads and forced to vote for Brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370229
> View attachment 370230
> Seems I was right. "Back my plan or the UK suffers", does indeed appear to be the latest tactic from TM.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45696015


And how was you right?

What Theresa May's Chequers Deal or No Deal? Well we have known this since she announced her Chequers Deal as she has told us what the options are and the Ministers and the MP's and the EU Leaders. She couldn't have made the options clearer.


----------



## Arnie83

"Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, ex-attorney general Dominic Grieve warned the PM she faced a "polite rebellion" by pro-EU MPs, with a "significant" number prepared to back another referendum if a deal could not be reached."​
Slowly, but surely, a new referendum is become increasingly likely.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> And how was you right?
> 
> What Theresa May's Chequers Deal or No Deal? Well we have known this since she announced her Chequers Deal as she has told us what the options are and the Ministers and the MP's and the EU Leaders. She couldn't have made the options clearer.


Indeed.








Now we know it's dead in the water whatever she says do you honestly believe she'll get what she wants sooner or later? Why are you defending her when you suggested you were against her Chequers plan? Are you or have you changed your mind? It's OK to do so if you have!

This doesn't make her strong and stable. It makes her look like an autocratic wannabe deluded fascist dictator to me.

Just look at Gov.UK, their propaganda site. It doesn't give any "positivity" about No Deal apart from ensuring they'll be adequate food and medical supplies through stockpiling. Hardly a positive suggesting a rich "nation" may have to resort to that, especially when it's purely due to a very narrow majority vote and no other reason.

If May resorts to no deal, do you honestly believe parliament will vote that through?

And some brexiters, at least some I know are banking on May getting a deal so things will continue as they are. I find that baffling as if they wanted things to have remained the same why on earth vote for change in the first place?

Which brings us back to the big red bus and the threat of the Turkish population re-locating to the UK lies.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Indeed.
> View attachment 370235
> 
> Now we know it's dead in the water whatever she says do you honestly believe she'll get what she wants sooner or later? Why are you defending her when you suggested you were against her Chequers plan? Are you or have you changed your mind? It's OK to do so if you have!
> 
> This doesn't make her strong and stable. It makes her look like an autocratic wannabe deluded fascist dictator to me.


Not defending her did I say I was? Not changed my mind about the Chequers Deal either. Still against it.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Why do you keep bringing up Hitler? We fought Hitler to free Europe. Theresa May is nothing like Hitler. He was a crazy dictator who brainwashed ten year olds and used them as cannon fodder, as well as being responsible for genocide and the Third World War. Theresa May is just trying to negotiate leaving the Eu not bombing Europe.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Why do you keep bringing up Hitler? We fought Hitler to free Europe. Theresa May is nothing like Hitler. He was a crazy dictator who brainwashed ten year olds and used them as cannon fodder, as well as being responsible for genocide and the *Third World War*. Theresa May is just trying to negotiate leaving the Eu not bombing Europe.


Blimey; did I miss one?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Blimey; did I miss one?


Lol. I'm tired. :Hilarious

I had how many times he's been mentioned recently, on my mind and posted it.


----------



## havoc

It's all going so swimmingly well. We must look so good on the world stage. The rest of the world will be lining up to do deals with us now they've seen how good we are at negotiating and what a calm, strong and stable set of politicians we have to do it. We'll definitely be starting from an advantageous position now they all realise who they're dealing with.

And as a sidenote - normally any mention of Hitler would have me rolling my eyes but I keep expecting May to step off a plane waving a piece of paper and claiming 'peace in our time'. It wouldn't be any more ridiculous than the current reality.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Why do you keep bringing up Hitler? We fought Hitler to free Europe. Theresa May is nothing like Hitler. He was a crazy dictator who brainwashed ten year olds and used them as cannon fodder, as well as being responsible for genocide and the Third World War. Theresa May is just trying to negotiate leaving the Eu not bombing Europe.


You are totally right. I apologise for replying to Kitten Kongs post mentioning Hitler. I have removed my reply.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Why do you keep bringing up Hitler? We fought Hitler to free Europe. Theresa May is nothing like Hitler..... Theresa May is just trying to negotiate leaving the Eu not bombing Europe.


But Adolf wasn't the man people thought he was when he first came to power. He was the man who promised to make a desolate Germany great again. He achieved that, he was a hero to so many in his early days.

WE did not fight Hitler to free Europe. Our ancestors did.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No, TM is not Adolf Hitler, but with the behaviour of her and others it's hardly surprising so many are making comparisons with 1930s Germany in what's happening in the UK at the moment.




Are you being serious?

I know you don't like TM and this Government but that is taking it a bit far.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you being serious?
> 
> I know you don't like TM and this Government but that is taking it a bit far.


OK, I'll withdraw that comment and have edited my post accordingly.

We'll just have to see how things are in 5 years from now......


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> No, TM is not Adolf Hitler, but with the behaviour of her and others it's hardly surprising so many are making comparisons with 1930s Germany in what's happening in the UK at the moment.
> 
> And WE did not fight Hitler to free Europe. Our ancestors did.


There may be less than 500 left but you insult them and every one of them that's gone before.

Bloody disgusting post


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you being serious?
> 
> I know you don't like TM and this Government but that is taking it a bit far.


Well its true she supports fascists.

This sums her up perfectly.

*
1940s: We will fight them on the beaches.

2018: We will back them in the European Parliament.

Theresa May palling up with Hungary's fascist leader Orban marks a new low for a government already plumbing the depths of human indecency*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Well its true she supports fascists.
> 
> This sums her up perfectly.
> 
> *
> 1940s: We will fight them on the beaches.
> 
> 2018: We will back them in the European Parliament.
> 
> Theresa May palling up with Hungary's fascist leader Orban marks a new low for a government already plumbing the depths of human indecency*


Don't try and defend KK as it was a terrible post @noushka05.

These kinds of comments take things to far and destroy threads like this.


----------



## KittenKong

Just when the Strong and Stable fan club attack me for comparing May's methods to the early days of the Nazis here's another, courtesy of Sky News.

Now, this is bloody insulting to those in former Iron Curtain countries. The fall of the Berlin Wall and EU membership liberated them.

How dare this turd compare the EU to Soviet Russia.

Source, Sky News.








https://news.sky.com/story/foreign-...ompares-eu-to-prison-of-soviet-union-11513718


----------



## cheekyscrip

Germans are no different to any other nation.
Good people believed in false promises of skillful demagogue who played well on their xenophobia, their frustration and their national pride.

Any nation may go down the drain following the Pied Piper. 
That is true and not an insult to anyone.

This is also happening in Poland, in Hungary, in Turkey, in USA, in Israel, and many other places in the world.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Well its true she supports fascists.
> 
> This sums her up perfectly.
> 
> *
> 1940s: We will fight them on the beaches.
> 
> 2018: We will back them in the European Parliament.
> 
> Theresa May palling up with Hungary's fascist leader Orban marks a new low for a government already plumbing the depths of human indecency*


This is a fact, not an attempt at defending my post. You'll find it in a Google search.



stockwellcat. said:


> Don't try and defend KK as it was a terrible post @noushka05.
> 
> These kinds of comments take things to far and destroy threads like this.


It was terrible for her supporters, agreed, which is why I modified my original post.

As a supporter of Tony Blair's government for all its faults I feel much the same way about seeing comments that Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes without any mention of George W Bush.

So, yes I will apologise if any upset was caused.

I wouldn't want any excuse to call for the thread to be closed.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> How dare this turd compare the EU to Soviet Russia.
> 
> Source, Sky News.
> View attachment 370295
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/foreign-...ompares-eu-to-prison-of-soviet-union-11513718


Well we've all known what a nasty dick-head he is for a very long time


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am bowing out of this thread for now as I think it is terrible to compare the UK trying to leave the EU to one of the most worst times in history. You really see things through a narrow focus.

I want to point out my Grandad faught in the period of time that some remainers are refering to and was injured a number of times in combat and saw things you will never see in your life time and I think it is disgusting you have the nerve to be so low and to compare the negotiations for the UK to leave the EU to that time in history. It's not about liking May or the Conservative Party. The UK is negotiating to leave the EU not negotiating to have a war.

I don't know why I have posted this post as it is piontless trying to explain anything as you will just rant on about your cause.


----------



## Elles

Jeremy Hunt makes a stupid comment, Theresa May supports the Hungarian government, neither of these make leaving the Eu comparable to the Second World War. 

My grandparents also fought and afterwards were educators deep in Africa for 9 years. I can still smell the face powder on my grandmother’s cheeks, remember her showing me native dancing and her upset when she thought I’d die from being vegetarian. She also caught malaria over there, which was with her for the rest of her life. My grandfather moved to live close to me and my ex when she died. The one stable, loving unit in a otherwise pretty traumatic childhood. 

She and my grandfather are not ‘ancestors’ they are family, now gone and missed and as Labour supporters, neither were in favour of the eec. We are not out to take over Europe, not even those who voted leave and conservative. On the contrary, the idea is to leave the Eu, not control it.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Jeremy Hunt makes a stupid comment, Theresa May supports the Hungarian government, neither of these make leaving the Eu comparable to the Second World War.
> 
> My grandparents also fought and afterwards were educators deep in Africa for 9 years.. The one stable, loving unit in a otherwise pretty traumatic childhood.
> 
> She and my grandfather are not 'ancestors' they are family, now gone and missed and as Labour supporters, neither were in favour of the eec. We are not out to take over Europe, not even those who voted leave and conservative. On the contrary, the idea is to leave the Eu, not control it.


For me it was parents, uncles and aunties. two of my sisters were born in the war years

Hell, rationing hadn't long finished when I was born and mum still had the ration books


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am bowing out of this thread for now as I think it is terrible to compare the UK trying to leave the EU to one of the most worst times in history. You really see things through a narrow focus.
> 
> I want to point out my Grandad faught in the period of time that some remainers are refering to and was injured a number of times in combat and saw things you will never see in your life time and I think it is disgusting you have the nerve to be so low and to compare the negotiations for the UK to leave the EU to that time in history. It's not about liking May or the Conservative Party. The UK is negotiating to leave the EU not negotiating to have a war.
> 
> I don't know why I have posted this post as it is piontless trying to explain anything as you will just rant on about your cause.


But the EU as it became was established to help prevent what happened in the past from happening again.

I'm not and never will be a Conservative party supporter, but there is some truth in this.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> "Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, ex-attorney general Dominic Grieve warned the PM she faced a "polite rebellion" by pro-EU MPs, with a "significant" number prepared to back another referendum if a deal could not be reached."​
> Slowly, but surely, a new referendum is become increasingly likely.


They'd better hurry up then , Not much time left!


----------



## Elles

You do know that the Labour Party were traditionally against the EEC and didn’t see it that way in the 1950s and for many, right up to the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher also reportedly changed her mind about it.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> But the EU as it became was established to help prevent what happened in the past from happening again.
> 
> I'm not and never will be a Conservative party supporter, but there is some truth in this.
> 
> View attachment 370317


But it's morphed into something completely different


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You do know that the Labour Party were traditionally against the EEC and didn't see it that way in the 1950s and for many, right up to the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher also reportedly changed her mind about it.


Yes, I'm well aware of that. Labour in 1983 used EEC withdrawal as their flagship policy. Barbara Castle, who I speak very highly of, was known as an "Anti marketeer" but changed her stance on becoming an MEP. As a Labour supporter I was also taken in by their anti EEC stance before changing my own mind.

As for Thatcher, you are right but she was sensible enough to recognise she had to be part of it to influence it.. .


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> You do know that the Labour Party were traditionally against the EEC and didn't see it that way in the 1950s and for many, right up to the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher also reportedly changed her mind about it.


She wasn't happy with how it was going

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107332

"My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.

To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.

Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality."

"My fourth guiding principle is that Europe should not be protectionist.

The expansion of the world economy requires us to continue the process of removing barriers to trade, and to do so in the multilateral negotiations in the GATT.

It would be a betrayal if, while breaking down constraints on trade within Europe, the Community were to erect greater external protection.

We must ensure that our approach to world trade is consistent with the liberalisation we preach at home.

We have a responsibility to give a lead on this, a responsibility which is particularly directed towards the less developed countries.

They need not only aid; more than anything, they need improved trading opportunities if they are to gain the dignity of growing economic strength and independence."

If they had stuck to Maggie's vision then there wouldn't be a problem


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> If they had stuck to Maggie's vision then there wouldn't be a problem


I can't see much difference between what Thatcher describes and what the EU is.

Protectionism is another of those canards, like 'corrupt' that doesn't stand up to analysis.

From the BBC Fact Check ...

*Is the European Union a 'protectionist racket'?*

The conclusion is that the EU does indeed protect some of its producers, especially farmers, from outside competition, although the EU's single market means they are fully exposed to competition from within the EU.

The EU can't claim to be the world's freest trader, but *on many measures it's toward the more liberal end of the spectrum*.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44291103

As for "Britain as Britain"; the only event of the last 40 years that has made me, personally, feel less British was the 2016 referendum.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> For me it was parents, uncles and aunties. two of my sisters were born in the war years
> 
> Hell, rationing hadn't long finished when I was born and mum still had the ration books


I lived through all but one day of WW2 having been born at home instead of in hospital as arranged because all beds were reserved for possible casualties from bombings. I was lucky because my father was a fireman and used to come home every few weeks unlike my uncle, who being in the army used to be away for months at a time. Even though I was not much more than a baby and my parents shielded me from what was happening,I nevertheless sensed something terrible was happening. I still remember the feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach that I'd never see the two people I loved again each time I kissed them goodbye! Thunder caused me acute anxiety because I was convinced we were being bombed.

My father and grandfather begged my mother to take me to live with my uncles in the US because my mother was half Jewish by birth and they were terrified about what would happen to us if ever Hitler invaded the UK. She refused to go. It was only when I was about 7 years old and saw photos of the liberation of Bergen Belsen I fully realised what my fate might have been and those images still live with me to the present day.

I could tell you so much more about what it was like to grow up during the war, like the meagre food rations, not knowing what sweets, chocolate, cakes or biscuits tasted like or wearing "cut me down" clothes because there wasn't the money or coupons to buy new! All I'll say is that that the war coloured the rest of my life and I thank God that I was and am British because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about!

Quite frankly to speak of TM in the same breathe as Hitler and to predict that the UK will become another Germany in the 1930's is highly insulting not only to the PM but to the British people. But what can one expect from people whose posts consistently verge on the hysterical in their fanatic fervour to convert others to their narrow point of view.

These are the one's we should all be afraid of!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

@stockwellcat. My question was how do you _know_ those that did not vote in the referendum did so because they could they could not be bothered?
As far as I`m aware there has not been any research on the none voters, however given your statement:

_*27.8% of the UK public couldn't be bothered voting in their countries future. Shame on you for not being bothered.*_

You appear know to the reason was purely because they couldn`t be bothered, I would be interested to know where this information came from please.


----------



## Arnie83

Comparing May to Hitler is at best silly and I think we should draw a line under it.

This thread should be about Brexit, and the various uncertain potential outcomes that are still far from resolved.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Comparing May to Hitler is at best silly and I think we should draw a line under it.
> 
> This thread should be about Brexit, and the various uncertain potential outcomes that are still far from resolved.


I agree but to say it's silly is putting it mildly.

And I would remind you that one remoaner predicted that the UK will become another Cuba or North Korea which is downright ridiculous as well as being insulting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> @stockwellcat. My question was how do you _know_ those that did not vote in the referendum did so because they could they could not be bothered?
> As far as I`m aware there has not been any research on the none voters, however given your statement:
> 
> _*27.8% of the UK public couldn't be bothered voting in their countries future. Shame on you for not being bothered.*_
> 
> You appear know to the reason was purely because they couldn`t be bothered, I would be interested to know where this information came from please.


Sorry but I am not giving an answer to your question when some remainers seem to think it is acceptable comparing the UK to Germany in the 1930's and the PM to Hitler. The line has been crossed.

The arguements you now present do not have any meaning and have weakened your cause and arguements. The views of some remainers are so narrow minded.

It is pointless even having this conversation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> This thread should be about Brexit, and the various uncertain potential outcomes that are still far from resolved.


I think everything has been covered and now some remainers seem to be going over old ground just to argue for the sake of arguing. All the possible outcomes have been covered.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I agree but to say it's silly is putting it mildly.
> 
> And I would remind you that one remoaner predicted that the UK will become another Cuba or North Korea which is downright ridiculous as well as being insulting.


"Silly at best" is what I said. I try not to exacerbate potential topics of contention by explicitly using phrases like "bloody ridiculous", though they may hide between the lines.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I think everything has been covered and now some remainers seem to be going over old ground just to argue for the sake of arguing. All the possible outcomes have been covered.


I would agree that most possible outcomes have been mentioned, but while we have no idea which one we're going to end up with, it remains a live and developing topic, and rather an important one for those who wish to discuss it. If you no longer fall into that category, then fair enough.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry but I am not giving an answer to your question when some remainers seem to think it is acceptable comparing the UK to Germany in the 1930's and the PM to Hitler. The line has been crossed.
> 
> The arguements you now present do not have any meaning and have weakened your cause and arguements. The views of some remainers are so narrow minded.
> 
> It is pointless even having this conversation.


Ok that is your right not to reply, but my question has no reference to leave or remain as such, I was asking how you know the reason people did not vote in the EU referendum was simply because they could not be bothered.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I lived through all but one day of WW2 having been born at home instead of in hospital as arranged because all beds were reserved for possible casualties from bombings. I was lucky because my father was a fireman and used to come home every few weeks unlike my uncle, who being in the army used to be away for months at a time. Even though I was not much more than a baby and my parents shielded me from what was happening,I nevertheless sensed something terrible was happening. I still remember the feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach that I'd never see the two people I loved again each time I kissed them goodbye! Thunder caused me acute anxiety because I was convinced we were being bombed.
> 
> My father and grandfather begged my mother to take me to live with my uncles in the US because my mother was half Jewish by birth and they were terrified about what would happen to us if ever Hitler invaded the UK. She refused to go. It was only when I was about 7 years old and saw photos of the liberation of Bergen Belsen I fully realised what my fate might have been and those images still live with me to the present day.
> 
> I could tell you so much more about what it was like to grow up during the war, like the meagre food rations, not knowing what sweets, chocolate, cakes or biscuits tasted like or wearing "cut me down" clothes because there wasn't the money or coupons to buy new! All I'll say is that that the war coloured the rest of my life and I thank God that I was and am British because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about!
> 
> Quite frankly to speak of TM in the same breathe as Hitler and to predict that the UK will become another Germany in the 1930's is highly insulting not only to the PM but to the British people. But what can one expect from people whose posts consistently verge on the hysterical in their fanatic fervour to convert others to their narrow point of view.
> 
> These are the one's we should all be afraid of!


Thank you for posting this. Its very interesting hearing of your family history and your perspective .
A sensible post especially your last sentence . 
My parents lived through the second world war in west london , they were a little older than you and I heard their stories and I remember the bomb shelters in their back gardens .


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I agree but to say it's silly is putting it mildly.
> 
> And I would remind you that one *Remoaner* predicted that the UK will become another Cuba or North Korea which is downright ridiculous as well as being insulting.


Kindly refrain from personal insults please.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Don't try and defend KK as it was a terrible post @noushka05.
> 
> These kinds of comments take things to far and destroy threads like this.


Please don't tell me what to do. I posted the truth.

What i find interesting is how people are more outraged by opinions on this thread than they are with a government cosying up to fascist governments, dangerous despotic regimes and mass murderers. More outraged with pf members than they are a government intent on poisoning our relationship with our friends in the EU. Its unbelievable . We are going to find ourselves totally isolated.

Response to Jeremy Hunt by Lord Peter Ricketts Former Br diplomat, most recently Amb. in Paris, before that first UK National Security Adviser, Head of FCO, NATO rep. 
_

This rubbish is unworthy of a British Foreign Secretary. The EU isn't a Soviet-style prison. Its legal order has brought peace and prosperity after a century of war.
Our decision to leave was always going to leave us worse off.
The only punishment is the self-inflicted variety

..................................._


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Kindly refrain from personal insults please.


https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/remoaner


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry but I am not giving an answer to your question when some remainers seem to think it is acceptable comparing the UK to Germany in the 1930's and the PM to Hitler. The line has been crossed.
> 
> The arguements you now present do not have any meaning and have weakened your cause and arguements. The views of some remainers are so narrow minded.
> 
> It is pointless even having this conversation.


I did not compare TM personally to Hitler. What I did say we're some comparisons such as using fear to sell her cause, IE what might happen to the UK if her Chequers plan is rejected.

And yes, cosying up to other far right politicians is worrying.

I think in future I'll keep my opinions to myself as narrow minded types do like to twist things to support their cause and cannot accept apologies for any offence caused.

Many years ago I was in conversation about upping women's retirement age from 60-65. For men it was 65. I said it was right that the retirement age should be the same for men and women but before I had a chance to say it should be 60 for men and women I was interrupted and became known as the one who supported women retiring at 65. I was never allowed to finish my explanation when the word was spread....


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/remoaner


It's a tabloid word intended to cause offence and division.

I have refrained from using derogatory terms towards Brexiters, yes I know a few.

I respectfully ask you to do the same.


----------



## kimthecat

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> narrow minded types do like to twist things to support their cause


Yes this has been noticed over the last 2 years.


> and cannot accept apologies for any offence caused.


Apology accepted but what was said not forgotten.


> But if you think you've silenced me on Brexit, you are sadly mistaken.


No one is expecting you to.


> I will not be bullied off the forum.


No one is bullying you but like wise what some of the remainers do could constitute as bullying to enforce their cause as it does come across in an agressive tone and desperate at times.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Please don't tell me what to do.


Sorry if my posted sounded that way it was not intended.


----------



## KittenKong

The Chequers plan. It's dead but according to Rabb it's resting.....










Source BBC


----------



## Elles

Any plan is going to be criticised. The Eu have said no cherry picking, ie all or nothing. Remainers want to stay in. Leavers want to leave. TM’s plan is a half way house, trying to please everyone, which is impossible. What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Any plan is going to be criticised. The Eu have said no cherry picking, ie all or nothing. Remainers want to stay in. Leavers want to leave. TM's plan is a half way house, trying to please everyone, which is impossible. *What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu*?


I dread to think!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu?


I think from what has been said over the last 2 years some remainers would prefer to stay in or if there was a deal that the deal is like we never left. I apologise to some of the remainers on here if I have misinterpreted what you have said but I am going off what you have been saying on here over the last 2 years.

IMO I would prefer a clean break as the EU seem to like to try and make things difficult. My opinion though.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Any plan is going to be criticised. The Eu have said no cherry picking, ie all or nothing. Remainers want to stay in. Leavers want to leave. TM's plan is a half way house, trying to please everyone, which is impossible. What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu?


The woman is in an impossible position. I'm quite happy with how she's conducting herself, it's the other rabble that I'm astounded at. Her own naughty boys , the Labour party and several of the EU heads of state


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Any plan is going to be criticised. The Eu have said no cherry picking, ie all or nothing. Remainers want to stay in. Leavers want to leave. TM's plan is a half way house, trying to please everyone, which is impossible. *What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu?*


There isn't one. There never has been except in the imaginations of people like Davis, who said we'd get the "exact same benefits" once we'd left as we already had, plus the ability to do trade deals, because the EU needed us more than we needed them.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> It's a tabloid word intended to cause offence and division.
> 
> I have refrained from using derogatory terms towards Brexiters, yes I know a few.
> 
> I respectfully ask you to do the same.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Any plan is going to be criticised. The Eu have said no cherry picking, ie all or nothing. Remainers want to stay in. Leavers want to leave. TM's plan is a half way house, trying to please everyone, which is impossible. What deal will be acceptable to the majority of Remain and Leave voters and the Eu?


The only options left are no deal or remain.

Theresa May has rejected every reasonable proposal put to her. She insists only on her plan and declares it the Brexit people voted for because she says so. I'd better shut up at this point!


----------



## Elles

I haven’t once seen a proposal put forward that people have agreed would be reasonable.

What is it?


----------



## Elles

Plus I would say that one obvious action, if the Eu are unwilling, or unable to compromise on anything, is to go to the individual members to ask their opinion. After all the Eu represents them. Yet TM has been criticised for doing that too.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I haven't once seen a proposal put forward that people have agreed would be reasonable.
> 
> What is it?


The only reasonable proposal as far I can see is to negotiate a 'free' trade deal with the EU, as all other non-members do. Why would we expect anything different?

It causes all sorts of problems, but we've chosen to leave, and they are an inevitable consequence of that decision.

The trouble is we've been saying for 2 years that we want a trade deal like Canada, but we also want to retain some benefits of membership. It seems to me to be unreasonable of us to expect that, let alone to demand it and then claim it's the EU being unreasonable for inevitably refusing.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I haven't once seen a proposal put forward that people have agreed would be reasonable.
> 
> What is it?


I don't remember voters being required to come up with the solution as part of the ballot paper. Had TM gone in with a better attitude in the first place things might be different now but she didn't and we are where we are. This is our mess of our making and isn't up to the rest of the EU to sort out - we aren't being pushed out. Why anyone thinks it's up to them to bend over backwards to accommodate us truly baffles me.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> I don't remember voters being required to come up with the solution as part of the ballot paper. Had TM gone in with a better attitude in the first place things might be different now but she didn't and we are where we are. This is our mess of our making and isn't up to the rest of the EU to sort out - we aren't being pushed out. Why anyone thinks it's up to them to bend over backwards to accommodate us truly baffles me.


The impression I get is that May decided to do the job 'properly' as per her Lancaster House speech, and ever since then she's been learning just how damaging it would be, so she's been trying to row back from what she said.

All the optimism and jingoism in the world can't overcome cold hard facts, and she's trying to minimise the damage to the UK's economic national interest.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> The woman is in an impossible position. I'm quite happy with how she's conducting herself, it's the other rabble that I'm astounded at. Her own naughty boys , the Labour party *and several of the EU heads of state*


Who and what did you have in mind here? As far as I can see, all they have done is stand firm on the same two points:

There is to be no cherry picking of the four freedoms
There will have to be a hard border of some sort in Ireland (in order to comply with World Trade regulations, not EU specific rules)
Granted, there has sometimes been an element of frustration to their words (usually deservedly, in my personal opinion), but I can't think of anything offhand that TM and co haven't at least matched (if not exceeded) in their own rhetoric.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370229
> View attachment 370230
> Seems I was right. "Back my plan or the UK suffers", does indeed appear to be the latest tactic from TM.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45696015


A _national festival_? Seriously? *headdesk*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> A _national festival_? Seriously? *headdesk*


Didn't Corbyn want to make St Georges day a UK public holiday not so long ago and got alot of stick for suggesting it?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Didn't Corbyn want to make St Georges day a UK public holiday not so long ago and got alot of stick for suggesting it?


I'm not surprised. St. George is the patron saint of England, not the UK.

Why on earth do so many see England as being the UK?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I'm not surprised. St. George is the patron saint of England, not the UK.
> 
> Why on earth do so many see England as being the UK?


I found a news article saying that Corbyn intended making 4 UK saints days public holidays back in April 2018.

http://inews.co.uk/news/uk/st-georges-day-jeremy-corbyn-four-extra-bank-holidays/amp/
*Jeremy Corbyn promises four extra paid bank holidays each year including St George's Day*

St David's Day, patron saint of Wales - 1 March

St Patrick's Day, patron saint of Ireland - 17 March

St George's Day, patron saint of England - 23 April

St Andrew's Day, patron saint of Scotland - 30 November

TM offers to have one days festival to celebrate Brexit and gets stick yet Corbyn suggested 4 new holiday days.

To be honest MP's are as bad as one another.


----------



## kimthecat

Rees Mogg being interviewed on BBC news about his support for Boris being PM :Vomit

OT but I did admire the way he handled a man shouting at his son when they were getting out of a car . 
He remained calm and didnt respond . I would have punched the blokes lights out .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I found a news article saying that Corbyn intended making 4 UK saints days public holidays back in April 2018.
> 
> http://inews.co.uk/news/uk/st-georges-day-jeremy-corbyn-four-extra-bank-holidays/amp/
> *Jeremy Corbyn promises four extra paid bank holidays each year including St George's Day*
> 
> St David's Day, patron saint of Wales - 1 March
> 
> St Patrick's Day, patron saint of Ireland - 17 March
> 
> St George's Day, patron saint of England - 23 April
> 
> St Andrew's Day, patron saint of Scotland - 30 November
> 
> TM offers to have one days festival to celebrate Brexit and gets stick yet Corbyn suggested 4 new holiday days.
> 
> To be honest MP's are as bad as one another.


It would be nice to have more bank holidays but we need them in the summer , not all squished together .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> It would be nice to have more bank holidays but we need them in the summer , not all squished together .


From what Corbyn is suggesting we'd only have St George's day in England but him promising this wouldn't make me inclined on voting for Labour in any GE.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Rees Mogg being interviewed on BBC news about his support for Boris being PM :Vomit
> 
> OT but I did admire the way he handled a man shouting at his son when they were getting out of a car .
> He remained calm and didnt respond . I would have punched the blokes lights out .


Rees Mogg confuses me as in one breath he is saying he wants May to ditch the Chequer's Deal, then in another breath he is saying he wants it altering and then in another breath he says he is backing the hardest of Brexits. He said this morning though he has no intention of backing a move to get May out of power and now he supports Johnson.

Good for him for remaining calm. I would have had a few things to say to the man if it was my son he was shouting at (I don't have any children so I am speaking hypothetically).


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Didn't Corbyn want to make St Georges day a UK public holiday not so long ago and got alot of stick for suggesting it?


*shrug* Don't really see what that has to do with it, though at least those would have been the four established saints days.

Either which way, an official day of jingoistic flag waving celebrations holds no appeal for me. Smacks far too much of panem et circenses


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> TM offers to have one days festival to celebrate Brexit and gets stick yet Corbyn suggested 4 new holiday days.


I think it is supposed to celebrate Britain rather than Brexit*. The latter would be a tad provocative, perhaps.

But like you say, both her idea and Corbyn's are mainly intended to win votes.

Edit: Though a lot of social media responses are treating it as a 'Festival of Brexit' and taking the mickey accordingly!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think it is supposed to celebrate Britain rather than Brexit. The latter would be a tad provocative, perhaps.
> 
> But like you say, both her idea and Corbyn's are mainly intended to win votes.


And a misguided attempt at uniting a deeply divided UK.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> And a misguided attempt at uniting a deeply divided UK.


Indeed. I think the split is permanent for a generation.


----------



## Arnie83

Philip Hammond:

"We have made a commitment that - once we have a deal to put to parliament and we are starting the debate that will lead to a meaningful vote in parliament - we will then publish updated analysis both of the deal that is being proposed and of the counterfactual no deal situation"

*Significantly, the Chancellor said he believed the Treasury's initial forecast about a no-deal Brexit - predicting a 7.7 per cent hit to GDP and an £80bn hole in the public finances - would "not have changed radically".*​
I'm currently thinking that there has been a secret agreement between May & Barnier / Juncker / Merkel that will be revealed in October / November, turning Chequers into something that just might just get through Parliament, given the No Deal is something that only the extremists want.

Or, of course, they're knee deep in the soft & smelly and haven't a clue how to get out!!


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Or, of course, they're knee deep in the soft & smelly and haven't a clue how to get out!!


Only _knee_ deep?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm currently thinking that there has been a secret agreement between May & Barnier / Juncker / Merkel that will be revealed in October / November, turning Chequers into something that just might just get through Parliament, given the No Deal is something that only the extremists want.


That wouldn't surprise me. May could be playing clever tactics by claiming the EU have rejected her plan, only for it to be reported May gets her way in November.

In the meantime the government itself continues scarce stories about what a no deal would bring in an effort to frighten people into supporting her plan.

She'll be seen as the one who saves Britain from the brink of ruin, ensuring uncontested leadership for at least another 10 years.

I sincerely hope I have got this very wrong, but as I said, nothing would surprise me.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Philip Hammond:
> 
> "We have made a commitment that - once we have a deal to put to parliament and we are starting the debate that will lead to a meaningful vote in parliament - we will then publish updated analysis both of the deal that is being proposed and of the counterfactual no deal situation"
> 
> *Significantly, the Chancellor said he believed the Treasury's initial forecast about a no-deal Brexit - predicting a 7.7 per cent hit to GDP and an £80bn hole in the public finances - would "not have changed radically".*​
> I'm currently thinking that there has been a secret agreement between May & Barnier / Juncker / Merkel that will be revealed in October / November, turning Chequers into something that just might just get through Parliament, given the No Deal is something that only the extremists want.
> 
> Or, of course, they're knee deep in the soft & smelly and haven't a clue how to get out!!


Don't forget Macron. 

I think it's more likely than not that there are discussions and agreements that we know nothing about.


----------



## Elles

Seems people are coming around to my (cynically sceptical) way of thinking.


----------



## Arnie83

On something of a doom-laden roll here ...

Donald Trump is refusing to allow new judges to take their place on the disputes settlement body of the WTO. There are supposed to be 7, but, as of today, there are only 3 as another comes to the end of his term. 3 is the minimum required to rule on any dispute.

The WTO will therefore soon be unable to settle disputes based on its rules. That will allow any country to trade according to whatever rules it wants - or none - and there will be no comeback for any other country against its actions. As the Petersen Institute say:

"Failure to resolve this crisis thus runs the risk of returning the world trading system to a power-based free-for-all, allowing big players to act unilaterally and use retaliation to get their way."​
Of course, that suits Trump's USA perfectly. It doesn't bode terribly well for the UK, who, immediately post-Brexit are going to be trading on WTO rules if there is No Deal, because if Trump gets his way there won't _be_ any enforceable WTO rules.

And it doesn't bode well for those who are banking on a trade deal with Trump's USA whether we have an EU deal or not (unless that deal bars us from doing so.)

This is a dangerous time to be Brexiting!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnbr...ing-down-the-wtos-appeals-court/#130f2deb7ab6

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-wto-threat-threat-matters-especially-britain

(Grauniad piece by Larry Elliott, who is a staunch Brexiter)


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

I’d guess that Donald Trump’s efforts to destroy the wto are far more significant than the U.K. leaving the Eu.


----------



## havoc

Not quite sure why she’s decided on a festival of ‘Great Britain and Northern Ireland’ in 2022 unless she deliberately intends to inflame Northern Ireland. It’s the 100 year anniversary of the creation of the province.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I'd guess that Donald Trump's efforts to destroy the wto are far more significant than the U.K. leaving the Eu.


I would agree, but we've been repeatedly told that the WTO is a safety net waiting at the bottom of our cliff-jump. But if Trump has his way and removes it ...


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I would agree, but we've been repeatedly told that the WTO is a safety net waiting at the bottom of our cliff-jump. But if Trump has his way and removes it ...


Dot dot dot indeed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I would agree, but we've been repeatedly told that the WTO is a safety net waiting at the bottom of our cliff-jump. But if Trump has his way and removes it ...


Because USA is our next BBF and EU is the panto villain.Trump as one of the few had so many warm words about Brexit. Putin was the other.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I never heard that EU is to centralise British or any other national identity!!!
Where that rubbish comes from?

What custom union or free movement has to do with it?
Will EU stop any St. George Day or forced the Royals to become commoners?
Will they force you to ban Nativity plays or Christmas markets?

Yes, this kind of OTT PC was done in UK without any EU prompting.
Neither EU can blamed for Islamic radicalism in any school, I don’t see EU nationals demanding to accept sharia law etc... 
We have globalisation but it is much more to do with internet than anything EU stands for.
The world is changing, blame modern technology that enables travel, enables access to products available not just locally but all over the world.

But I don’t like calling Christmas The Season and Christmas lights “ The Festival of Lights” !!! 
No foreigners ask for that.

No, we don’t have tpb sing “Ba, ba rainbow sheep”. 
Sheep never complained.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Dot dot dot indeed.


Soon to be followed by dash dash dash and three more dots


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Don't forget Macron.
> 
> I think it's more likely than not that there are discussions and agreements that we know nothing about.


I think Macron has enough troubles of his own to get too deeply involved in other peoples.

https://www.newsweek.com/france-macrons-popularity-hits-record-low-1135709


----------



## kimthecat

Trumps being sh*tty to the Canadians about tariffs on car imports too. 
How many years to the next US election !


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Trumps being sh*tty to the Canadians about tariffs on car imports too.
> How many years to the next US election !


But they've reached an agreement. From yesterday NAFTA has been replaced by USMCA the US, Mexico, Canada agreement.

According to the news all parties are happy especially Trump who is positively gloating!






https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/usmca-nafta-trade-deal-1.4845219


----------



## Arnie83

Further to @kimthecat 's & @Magyarmum 's posts above:

The new NAFTA (Trump wants to call it US MCA presumably because NAFTA sounds NAF) inclues these provisions among others:

Cars will have to be 75% made in North America if they are to be transported cross borders duty-free - an increase from 62.5%
70% of the steel and aluminium will have to be North American
40% of the labour content will have to be paid at $16 an hour or more
All protectionist measures, of course.

I've heard a number of people advocating that once we leave the "protectionist" EU, the benefits will come from a beautiful free trade deal with the USA. I wonder if they still think there is the remotest possibility of that while Trump is in charge. And who knows what the next President will do?


----------



## KittenKong

I'll refrain from any of my own comments.


----------



## Arnie83

Quite an open prison, to be fair, if all you need is a visa!

But it smacks a little of pandering to the prejudice that blames immigration for so many ills on which is has no effect whatsoever, and of reinforcing the hostile atmosphere that May fostered as Home Secretary, urged on by the tabloids.

'You can come here if you will make us richer and more comfortable, but if you're just seeking riches and comfort for your own family at our perceived expense, you're not welcome at all.'

The Tory conference will lap it up.


----------



## Elles

That’s what people wanted. An end to freedom of movement of labour. There was talk of a points system like Australia wasn’t there? This is about future migrants, not people already working here though. Tourism could be something slightly separate. One of the things people didn’t like was that migrants coming from Africa and illegal refugees on boats could be admitted to Europe and then travel anywhere they like to work and live, including Britain. Britain being attractive as many already speak English. 

It was seen by some as a problem confirmed when Merkel opened Germany to all, it was in effect opening the door to the whole of Europe including the Uk, with genuine refugees fleeing from war treated no differently from so called economic migrants. 

Ironically European countries are starting to clamp down, including Spain who seemed to be the next country on the list, so there was probably no need to leave the Eu if that was your main concern.


----------



## noushka05

My kids will never forgive her!

*Alex Andreou*‏Verified account @sturdyAlex 3h3 hours ago

_
"We will end Freedom of Movement for good" proudly announces May on #r4today. Cannot think of another PM announcing this catastrophic loss of rights to her own citizens with such glee.
And the truth is many will see it as great news because they see it as applying only to others._


----------



## Calvine

I don't know if this has already been posted (and my apologies is it has, but I don't take part in this thread, generally speaking, and only read about one in 100 posts). However, I thought I would cheer you all up by mentioning the fact that TM has decided that there will be a ''Brexit Festival'' once we leave the EU. Brexit Fiasco more like if she has anything to do with organising it! Anyway, off back to the cat section now.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Quite an open prison, to be fair, if all you need is a visa!
> 
> But it smacks a little of pandering to the prejudice that blames immigration for so many ills on which is has no effect whatsoever, and of reinforcing the hostile atmosphere that May fostered as Home Secretary, urged on by the tabloids.
> 
> 'You can come here if you will make us richer and more comfortable, but if you're just seeking riches and comfort for your own family at our perceived expense, you're not welcome at all.'
> 
> The Tory conference will lap it up.


But Visas are for visits. They don't allow you to stay.

Yes, professionals may still be welcome if they are allowed to leave the UK. Those with a lot of money too.

But for most of us with modest incomes our dreams of retiring to the sun for a better life have all but disappeared on the personal instruction from Theresa May.


----------



## Elles

Spain began to deport illegals and prevent more coming in this year. If you want freedom of movement and economic migrants to be allowed to make a better life for themselves and their families, should not Europe itself have no border? Or does it only count for Europeans and the Eu?


----------



## noushka05

Like this wasn't obvious to all but those with their heads in the sand.


*Emma Howard*‏Verified account @EmmaEHoward
Michael Gove just told #CPC18: "_Nature is in retreat & wildlife is threatened. We have a responsibility to reverse that destruction. That's exactly what a Conservative government will do_"

Has anyone showed him the leaked plan his department signed off?

*Leaked document shows government is planning to miss key wildlife target*

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/09/30/wildlife-sssi-sites-target-natural-england/

Reaction from Caroline Lucas.

@michaelgove paints lovely picture of restored countryside - but rhetoric can't mask damaging policies.

He's expanded the badger cull, dropped ban on animal exports & failed to set up environmental regulator in time for Brexit.

It takes more than words to protect environment.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> That's what people wanted. An end to freedom of movement of labour. There was talk of a points system like Australia wasn't there? This is about future migrants, not people already working here though. Tourism could be something slightly separate. One of the things people didn't like was that migrants coming from Africa and illegal refugees on boats could be admitted to Europe and then travel anywhere they like to work and live, including Britain. Britain being attractive as many already speak English.
> 
> It was seen by some as a problem confirmed when Merkel opened Germany to all, it was in effect opening the door to the whole of Europe including the Uk, with genuine refugees fleeing from war treated no differently from so called economic migrants.
> 
> Ironically European countries are starting to clamp down, including Spain who seemed to be the next country on the list, so there was probably no need to leave the Eu if that was your main concern.


Yes and no. Not one Brexiter I know believes FOM rights will end for British citizens. We're told things like Spain would collapse if it wasn't for the Brits so they'd be welcome to live and work as they are now.

I wonder how reassured they are by May's admission today?

FOM works both ways. The sooner people realise that the better.


----------



## Elles

Wonder who leaked it.


----------



## noushka05

This is a goodun 

David Schneider1:
Siri. Show me a tweet that sums up Tory party priorities. #cpc18

*....................................................................................................................................................................................
Interesting exhibitors at the Conservative Party Conference #CPC2018 **#CPC1*8


----------



## Elles

Do you think that a ‘Patriotic Brit’ and passionate Brexiter cares? He wouldnt be seen dead living and working in Spain.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Spain began to deport illegals and prevent more coming in this year. If you want freedom of movement and economic migrants to be allowed to make a better life for themselves and their families, should not Europe itself have no border? Or does it only count for Europeans and the Eu?


That's complete nonsense. The EU does of course have a border with non EU/EEA countries which will include the UK when it leaves, seeing May has rejected the EEA option.

FOM is a privilege only for EU/EEA countries. It's one of the many benefits of membership.

FOM should not be available to none members. Even I believe that.


----------



## Elles

And FOM applies to an illegal immigrant who been granted leave to stay. I don't think you can criticise Britain as @Arnie83 has for wanting to refuse admission to people wanting to come here for better pay and to improve the lives of their families, when the whole of Europe does the same thing, just on a grander scale.


----------



## noushka05

I dont understand how anyone be proud of what our country is becoming. Brexit and those nasty brextremists are turning it into a toxic sewer.

*Vytenis Andriukaitis*‏Verified account @V_Andriukaitis 21h21 hours ago
Vytenis Andriukaitis Retweeted BBC Politics
*
Dear @Jeremy_Hunt I was born in Soviet gulag and been imprisoned by KGB a few times in my life. 
Happy to brief you on the main differences between #EU and Soviet Union.

And also why we escaped the #USSR Anytime. Whatever helps.*

..................


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Do you think that a 'Patriotic Brit' and passionate Brexiter cares? He wouldnt be seen dead living and working in Spain.


A remarkable number of holiday makers did vote for Brexit, ignorant of the difficulties that may arise from next March.

As I've said before, people won't miss what they've never had but take something they took for granted away from them is another matter.

Yet, you are right. A "Passionate Brexiter" should practice what they preach, not obtain EU passports for their children (Farage), not moving to France (Lawson), nor brag about being entitled to Irish passports.

These people have persuaded others to sacrifice their own rights.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Quite an open prison, to be fair, if all you need is a visa!


It's a revenue stream - we can make a bit extra from every tourist visiting the U.K. and every EU country makes some from visiting Brits.


----------



## noushka05

hahaha

Conservative Party Conference: Where have all the Tories gone?

https://news.sky.com/story/conservative-party-conference-where-have-all-the-tories-gone-11514720










(sorry havoc )


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That's what people wanted. An end to freedom of movement of labour. There was talk of a points system like Australia wasn't there? This is about future migrants, not people already working here though. Tourism could be something slightly separate. *One of the things people didn't like was that migrants coming from Africa and illegal refugees on boats could be admitted to Europe and then travel anywhere they like to work and live, including Britain. Britain being attractive as many already speak English. *
> 
> It was seen by some as a problem confirmed when Merkel opened Germany to all, it was in effect opening the door to the whole of Europe including the Uk, with genuine refugees fleeing from war treated no differently from so called economic migrants.
> 
> Ironically European countries are starting to clamp down, including Spain who seemed to be the next country on the list, so there was probably no need to leave the Eu if that was your main concern.


A lot of people didn't appreciate that migrants into the EU cannot travel freely to the UK unless and until they become EU citizens, which isn't easy, especially for those whose refugee status is questionable or downright bogus.


----------



## Elles

Did you read the article @noushka05 ? It says that they are attending fringe meetings, listening to speeches by controversial figures such as Rees-Mogg and Farage on Brexit. I'm not sure it's a laughing matter, when this is our government.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

What about Gibraltar? 

If you have enough money you can pretty much go anywhere. Live in social housing on benefits and you can’t go anywhere.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370488


Deja vu. Noush already posted it #1624. It's what I've been replying to.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Not one Brexiter I know believes FOM rights will end for British citizens.


WOW you must know some pretty dim people



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370485
> View attachment 370486
> View attachment 370487


Good


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> A lot of people didn't appreciate that migrants into the EU cannot travel freely to the UK unless and until they become EU citizens, which isn't easy, especially for those whose refugee status is questionable or downright bogus


Surely there's been enough coverage of the Calais camps and the attempts to stowaway in lorries to get to the UK for even the the stupidest to realise they couldn't just flood into this country.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> What about Gibraltar?
> 
> If you have enough money you can pretty much go anywhere. Live in social housing on benefits and you can't go anywhere.


That goes for most of us on average modest incomes as well.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> That goes for most of us on average modest incomes as well.


Which one? People on modest incomes can go anywhere, or can't go anywhere? Is a modest, average income 'enough money'?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Which one? People on modest incomes can go anywhere, or can't go anywhere? Is a modest, average income 'enough money'?


Not if the cost of travel significantly increases, then they'll be other matters such as Visas and medical insurance once the EHIC is no longer valid. Yes it's common sense to take out additional insurance but we're talking about those who travel to France or Holland for the day.

People have to prioritise such as food and bills, many of which have already increased. Such holidays might become out of reach for most of us in the future.

And many in "work" are on zero hour contracts who can't afford such luxuries at the minute, let alone next year.


----------



## Arnie83

The Social Market Foundation and Opinium Research proposed an immigration policy to their respondents, which many will recognise ...

EU citizens can come to Britain to work. They have to register with the UK government when they arrive. Numbers are recorded but not capped. They can only stay for more than 3 months if they have a job or have another means to support themselves. If they say they're supporting themselves, they have to take out private health insurance. They cannot claim unemployment benefits in their first 3 months here. If they do not work within 6 months and have no realistic prospect of finding a job, they are denied benefits and can be removed from the UK. Britain can stop all European immigration if the Government decides immigration is causing "economic, societal or environmental difficulties."​
And lo ...
Voters like this system. Overall, 58 per cent were positive about it. Only 18 per cent didn't like it.

Among Tories, support is even stronger: no fewer than 71 per cent of current Tory backers support that policy; only 13 per cent oppose it.

Leave voters like it too: 68 per cent are positive about the system described above.​
But ...
We didn't tell our respondents where that policy comes from, but what we described above is the immigration regime required by membership of the European Economic Area - the "Norway option" that so many politicians have written off as politically unviable.​
From The Times (paywall) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...le-immigration-just-don-t-tell-them-05lphnr89

And we'd get to stay in the single market. But that would be waaay too sensible, wouldn't it.


----------



## Elles

Why would people who can’t afford holidays abroad care about the freedom to go on holiday in Europe was my point. So you have people who can’t afford to go and people who don’t want to go who don’t give two hoots about freedom of movement. Add those to people who don’t want people to be able to easily move here to live and work and you’ve got a whole bunch of folk who don’t care about those particular tweets and headlines, or if they do care, actually agree with the policy and maybe even voted for it.


----------



## Magyarmum

*


Elles said:



That's what people wanted. An end to freedom of movement of labour. There was talk of a points system like Australia wasn't there?

Click to expand...

*


Elles said:


> This is about future migrants, not people already working here though. Tourism could be something slightly separate. One of the things people didn't like was that migrants coming from Africa and illegal refugees on boats could be admitted to Europe and then travel anywhere they like to work and live, including Britain. Britain being attractive as many already speak English.
> 
> It was seen by some as a problem confirmed when Merkel opened Germany to all, it was in effect opening the door to the whole of Europe including the Uk, with genuine refugees fleeing from war treated no differently from so called economic migrants.
> 
> Ironically European countries are starting to clamp down, including Spain who seemed to be the next country on the list, so there was probably no need to leave the Eu if that was your main concern.


researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7662/CBP-7662.pdf

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/migration_a_future_approach.pdf


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Surely there's been enough coverage of the Calais camps and the attempts to stowaway in lorries to get to the UK for even the the stupidest to realise they couldn't just flood into this country.


Those particular people couldn't. The people invited by politicians with handshakes and warmly accepted could get Eu passports and come here though. We even had politicians on the news doing the equivalent of kissing babies as they welcomed the migrants, some of whom disappeared, or jobless and unable to claim benefits, might have ended up begging on the streets, or living in backyard sheds. We've all seen the large families put up in hotels. Every time someone is subjected to aggressive begging, or pickpocketing, or hears of immigrants promoting sharia law, it's another nail in the coffin of free movement imho.


----------



## Elles

Had a long text from my GP reminding me to get a flu jab. Does it inform me of the benefits and risks? Nope. ‘Flu vaccinations provide valuable income for your GP surgery...please support your GP surgery’

Oh I’d better go straight in then.  

So this is what the nhs has to resort to.


----------



## KittenKong

Another point. May said she'd end FOM, "Once and for all".

Yes I believe she could well last another 10 years in an increasingly hostile ,volitile and inward looking UK where threads like this would be outlawed, but what gives her the right to say that?

A future PM, even a moderate Tory one could well undo that.

After all, May is dismantling everything I thought was good about the UK from Major and Blair's administrations....


----------



## MilleD

Apparently robots are the answer to all this.

https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/new...utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> That goes for most of us on average modest incomes as well.


I only have a modest income which wouldn't be enough to allow me to live in the UK unless I claimed benefits which I'm not prepared to do.

I chose to live in Hungary where I bought a run down property on half an acre of land for 5000GBP which after spending some of my savings and enlisting help from my son, is now a warm comfortable home The cost of living here is around half what it is in the UK but most importantly here I can afford to own my two lovely dogs something I wouldn't have been able to do had I come to live in the UK


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7662/CBP-7662.pdf
> 
> https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/migration_a_future_approach.pdf


Yes, people do want FOM to end through their hatred of foreigners for example.

Yet there's much ignorance from many expecting the same to happen to them.

Reminds me of the British expat in Spain, an immigrant in other words, complaining about immigration in Spain yet he didn't see himself as one!


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Why would people who can't afford holidays abroad care about the freedom to go on holiday in Europe was my point.


Those who can afford it now but won't be able to once the extra costs are imposed are the ones who will moan - even if they voted leave.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Had a long text from my GP reminding me to get a flu jab. Does it inform me of the benefits and risks? Nope. 'Flu vaccinations provide valuable income for your GP surgery...please support your GP surgery'
> 
> Oh I'd better go straight in then.
> 
> So this is what the nhs has to resort to.


That's actually quite shocked me, though my OH has to have one for his Asthma and it certainly wasn't worded like that....... Is your surgery one of those where you have to wait weeks for an appointment?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Another point. May said she'd end FOM, "Once and for all".
> 
> Yes I believe she could well last another 10 years in an increasingly hostile ,volitile and inward looking UK where threads like this would be outlawed, but what gives her the right to say that?
> 
> A future PM, even a moderate Tory one could well undo that.
> 
> After all, May is dismantling everything I thought was good about the UK from Major and *Blair's* administrations....


Since when was taking us into the Iraq war "good" one might ask?

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/how-bad-was-tony-blair/


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Since when was taking us into the Iraq war "good" one might ask?
> 
> https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/how-bad-was-tony-blair/


 Lying toe rag !


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Since when was taking us into the Iraq war "good" one might ask?
> 
> https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/how-bad-was-tony-blair/





kimthecat said:


> Lying toe rag !


I was referring to the efforts of the Good Friday agreement amongst many others.

You could use the same argument for the respect I showed David Cameron for his support for Gay marriage, then he carried out the biggest mistake in post war history by calling a disastrous EU referendum that he wasn't going to lose....

I'm the first to condemn the Iraq War but place most of the blame on GW Bush. A Tory PM wouldn't have refused the same compliance I'm sure. Imagine the flack if Blair or any other PM did? "Betrayal of our greatest friend and ally...."

Then, there's always one rule for the Tories and another for others.

The Iraq War has been extensively covered in other threads. Can we please keep to the topic in question?

What I will say though is, for all his faults, I still rate Tony Blair as the best PM ever in my adult lifetime.

I stand by that to this day.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The Iraq War has been extensively covered in other threads. Can we please keep to the topic in question?
> 
> .


Make me 

BTW My comment was about Blair himself not the Iraq war !


----------



## stockwellcat.

Why does the subject of leaving the EU have to always result into discussing Germany in the 1930's, the Iraq War or any other war? We aren't going to war with the EU we are leaving the EU for crying out loud. 

It's not the end of the world either.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I was referring to the efforts of the Good Friday agreement amongst many others.
> 
> You could use the same argument for the respect I showed David Cameron for his support for Gay marriage, then he carried out the biggest mistake in post war history by calling a disastrous EU referendum that he wasn't going to lose....
> 
> I'm the first to condemn the Iraq War but place most of the blame on GW Bush. A Tory PM wouldn't have refused the same compliance I'm sure. Imagine the flack if Blair or any other PM did? "Betrayal of our greatest friend and ally...."
> 
> Then, there's always one rule for the Tories and another for others.
> 
> The Iraq War has been extensively covered in other threads. Can we please keep to the topic in question?
> 
> What I will say though is, for all his faults, I still rate Tony Blair as the best PM ever in my adult lifetime.
> 
> I stand by that to this day.


Perhaps in that case you should have made it clear then.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/741926/Final_EEA_report.PDF

Enjoy!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Why does the subject of leaving the EU have to always result into discussing Germany in the 1930's, the Iraq War or any other war? We aren't going to war with the EU we are leaving the EU for crying out loud.
> 
> It's not the end of the world either.


The way many are behaving you'd think the UK was at war with the EU. Tanturms such as May's recently used to spark wars.

Brexit isn't the end of the world. It only entraps us to a tiny portion of it once FOM ends......


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Make me
> 
> BTW My comment was about Blair himself not the Iraq war !


Remarkably I do try and see good in people such as my mention of Cameron's support for Gay marriage while up against much opposition from the "traditionalists" within his own party.

Have you forgotten the banning of Foxhunting was under Tony Blair's administration for example? That would never have happened under a Tory government. Indeed, as we know Theresa May is keen to repeal it.

Ask me if I can remotely think of a single positive from Theresa May my answer would be an absolute NO!


----------



## stockwellcat.

*LIVE: Cheers as Johnson demands it is 'time to chuck Chequers'*










https://news.sky.com/story/live-pm-unveils-post-brexit-migration-plan-11514996


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *LIVE: Cheers as Johnson demands it is 'time to chuck Chequers'*
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-pm-unveils-post-brexit-migration-plan-11514996


And more good news for me as an EU supporter and as far as her Chequers plan is concerned.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nference-european-parliament-eu-a8564401.html


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *LIVE: Cheers as Johnson demands it is 'time to chuck Chequers'*
> View attachment 370497
> 
> 
> View attachment 370494
> 
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-pm-unveils-post-brexit-migration-plan-11514996


Boris's quest for #10 continues.

As far as Brexit is concerned, though, populist soundbites don't add up to a viable alternative.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Have you forgotten the banning of Foxhunting was under Tony Blair's administration for example? That would never have happened under a Tory government. Indeed, as we know Theresa May is keen to repeal it.


It was on the cards for a fox hunting ban under a labour government under any PM .
You can hardly compare a fox hunting ban to lying to the world and starting a war and thousands killed and the consequence for us in the UK . 

Now we're really off topic!


----------



## KittenKong

After having the loss of our FOM confirmed by Theresa May there's more honesty from Philip Hammond.






















https://www.politico.eu/article/phi...er-in-ireland-if-there-is-no-brexit-deal/amp/


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Had a long text from my GP reminding me to get a flu jab. Does it inform me of the benefits and risks? Nope. 'Flu vaccinations provide valuable income for your GP surgery...please support your GP surgery'
> 
> So this is what the nhs has to resort to.


Yes, thanks mainly to chronic (and strategically systematic) underfunding, plus private healthcare providers creaming the 'cashflow positive' aspects of NHS healthcare into some pretty lucrative contracts, leaving the NHS increasingly with the high cost elements.

A GP surgery near hear closed last year, despite the GPs not drawing a salary and putting their own money into trying to keep it going. Anyone needing a GP appointment in those areas who can't register elsewhere for whatever reason I think now has to make do with the NHS phone service or paying for private if they can afford it. Or A&E/999 of course - not like they are under strain at all.

And yes, this IS insider information.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> You can hardly compare a fox hunting ban to lying to the world and starting a war and thousands killed and the consequence for us in the UK .
> Now we're really off topic!


Did Tony Blair unilaterally declare war on Iraq? Would the Iraq war have happened if GW Bush wasn't US President?

Anyway, the Iraq war happened after the GF agreement and the hunting ban.

Had the Tories been in power they still would've been an Iraq War but no hunting ban!

Funny how no one mentions GW Bush and the previous Tory government's support for Bush senior's Gulf War.

Then of course Gordon Brown was blamed for the global economic crash which started in, yes again, the USA!

The US has caused the UK nothing but trouble, and to think many actually want a closer relationship with it after Brexit baffles me immensely!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370498


Not expecting them to.


----------



## Elles

Yes, my gp surgery is one that no longer offers urgent appointments and a wait can be anything up to 3 months. We are told to use a&e and walk in centres. The gps are all part timers, my own gp is grossly obese and often off sick.

It seems that my generation were too successful in research and this one don’t want to be health workers and doctors. 

Some privatisation might be cheaper and more efficient, but if it’s foreign investors out to milk it and of course the rip offs over medicines, it’s never going to work imho. I believe that blaming Brexit for its struggles is a red herring and it’s in part down to government policy and in part down to the success of medical research and innovation.

I don’t really blame Tony Blair for the Iraq war, but rather the people who lied about wmd over oil. What happened afterwards in my opinion played no small part in bringing about the Brexit vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Boris's quest for #10 continues.


Well you cannot blame him. He was in it to win until Gove stabbed him in the back in the last leadership challenge. I reckon it would have been close between him and May if Gove didn't interfere.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well you cannot blame him. He was in it to win until Gove stabbed him in the back in the last leadership challenge. I reckon it would have been close between him and May if Gove didn't interfere.


I most certainly can blame him! 

I'd prefer a PM who puts the interests of the country before those of himself. He has no workable Brexit alternative short of walking away and dropping us in the poop.

For all I know he might believe that all we have to do is have faith in the British spirit, but it won't butter any parsnips negotiating a trade deal either with the EU or with Trump.


----------



## Elles

I prefer Gove to Boris.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I prefer Gove to Boris.


That's like preferring gout to toothache!


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> That's like preferring gout to toothache!


I'd take Igglepiggle over both of them - talks more sense!


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> What I will say though is, for all his faults, I still rate Tony Blair as the best PM ever in my adult lifetime.


He is the PM who allowed all EU citizens unfettered access to the UK. We could have had a different system where they have to go home after a given period if they don't have a job but he decided against it. Feelings might have been very different at the referendum if Blair had thought a bit.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I was referring to the efforts of the Good Friday agreement amongst many others.


Airbrushing Mo Mowlam out so that he could take the credit.....yeah......great guy


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The way many are behaving you'd think the UK was at war with the EU. Tanturms such as May's recently used to spark wars.
> 
> Brexit isn't the end of the world. It only entraps us to a tiny portion of it once FOM ends......


No it doesn't, don't be ridiculous. We can travel the world once FOM ends, same as we do now


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Yes, my gp surgery is one that no longer offers urgent appointments and a wait can be anything up to 3 months. We are told to use a&e and walk in centres. The gps are all part timers, my own gp is grossly obese and often off sick.
> 
> It seems that my generation were too successful in research and this one don't want to be health workers and doctors.
> 
> Some privatisation might be cheaper and more efficient, but if it's foreign investors out to milk it and of course the rip offs over medicines, it's never going to work imho. I believe that blaming Brexit for its struggles is a red herring and it's in part down to government policy and in part down to the success of medical research and innovation.
> 
> .


I don't understand how my surgery can work while others can't!!!
We can usually get a same day appointment, the doctors usually stay for years and they keep to their catchment area very strictly



Elles said:


> I prefer Gove to Boris.


Seriously?
I don't


----------



## 3dogs2cats

May is a bit cross with parts of Johnson`s speech apparently. Go on Tezza, tell us what you really think...` Boris is a complete prat`.. you know you want to! Your popularity ratings will increase


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> He is the PM who allowed all EU citizens unfettered access to the UK. We could have had a different system where they have to go home after a given period if they don't have a job but he decided against it. Feelings might have been very different at the referendum if Blair had thought a bit.


Let's face it, anything Tony Blair or any none Tory politician does or did invites criticism.

It wouldn't have made any difference whatever he did.


----------



## havoc

rona said:


> No it doesn't, don't be ridiculous. We can travel the world once FOM ends, same as we do now


By definition it won't be the same as now throughout Europe.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> It wouldn't have made any difference whatever he did.


I think it would. At the time he was convinced we couldn't get by without Polish plumbers and by the time of the referendum many were hell bent on stopping immigration from Eastern Europe.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I prefer Gove to Boris.


God, they both should have been drowned at birth or something like that, they only think of themselves not the country.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Let's face it, anything Tony Blair or any none Tory politician does or did invites criticism.


Riiiigght. And no Tory politicians are being criticised on this thread? :Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Yes, thanks mainly to chronic (and strategically systematic) underfunding, plus private healthcare providers creaming the 'cashflow positive' aspects of NHS healthcare into some pretty lucrative contracts, leaving the NHS increasingly with the high cost elements.
> 
> A GP surgery near hear closed last year, despite the GPs not drawing a salary and putting their own money into trying to keep it going. Anyone needing a GP appointment in those areas who can't register elsewhere for whatever reason I think now has to make do with the NHS phone service or paying for private if they can afford it. Or A&E/999 of course - not like they are under strain at all.
> 
> And yes, this IS insider information.


Why would people not be able to register with another practice?


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> By definition it won't be the same as now throughout Europe.


No but that wasn't what was said. What was said was 
"Brexit isn't the end of the world. It only entraps us to a tiny portion of it once FOM ends......"

It does not entrap us anywhere


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Riiiigght. And no Tory politicians are being criticised on this thread? :Hilarious


This thread and indeed social media is one thing, but I'm referring to the mainstream media and the press.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> This thread and indeed social media is one thing, but I'm referring to the mainstream media and the press.


Then I guess that depends on your perspective as that isn't my view on them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I think it would. At the time he was convinced we couldn't get by without Polish plumbers and by the time of the referendum many were hell bent on stopping immigration from Eastern Europe.


At one time it was impossible without Polish pilots... who stayed in Britain, mostly as commemorative plaques...


----------



## kimthecat

May has promised to freeze petrol duty and civic partnerships for straight couples. That gets a thumbs up for me.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

Here's why I think a peoples vote won't happen.

1. There isn't very many negotiating days left (15 in total as the EU want something by the 18th October) and extending article 50 has been ruled out as we will be leaving on the 29th March 2019.
2. All those MP's in the Conservative Party against the Chequers deal want May to remain PM at least until we have left the EU on next year.
3. A second referendum has been ruled out as well by the way.
4. Corbyn is playing the election card which won't happen either as the numbers don't stack up for a vote of no confidence in Parliament. Corbyn wants a unicorns and rainbows Brexit that includes cherry picking as he wants the UK to stay in the Customs Union and be able to strike trade deals which cannot happen without cherry picking being allowed.
5. Again a second referendum has been ruled out.
6. Remember Corbyn isn't the PM either May is and her party want her to remain PM even those that were declared to be trying to over throw her want her to remain as PM and they don't want to over throw her.
7. May today said she is going to be reasserting her authority as party leader on the Conservative Party on domestic issues.
8. Time is rather, rather short to be even contemplating a second referendum it took Cameron and co over a year to get one put together and happen and an extention to article 50 has been ruled out.

Labour is not in power.
Conservative party is in power.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370572
> View attachment 370573


She said nothing of the sort. The papers did.
She talked about the skills that we need.
That would include all staffing of the NHS
They've already put in ideas for agriculture


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Here's why I think a peoples vote won't happen.
> 
> 1. There isn't very many negotiating days left and extending article 50 has been ruled out as we will be leaving on the 29th March 2019.
> 2. All those MP's in the Conservative Party against the Chequers deal want May to remain PM at least until we have left the EU on next year.
> 3. A second referendum has been ruled out as well by the way.
> 4. Corbyn is playing the election card which won't happen either as the numbers don't stack up for a vote of no confidence in Parliament. Corbyn wants a unicorns and rainbows Brexit that includes cherry picking as he wants the UK to stay in the Customs Union and be able to strike trade deals which cannot happen without cherry picking being allowed.
> 5. Again a second referendum had been ruled out.
> 6. Remember Corbyn isn't the PM either May is and her party want her to remain PM even those that were declared to be trying to over throw her want her to remain as PM and they don't want to over throw her.
> 7. May today said she is going to be reasserting her authority ad party leader on the Conservative on domestic issues.
> 8. Time is rather, rather short to be even contemplating a second referendum it took Cameron and co over a year to get one put together and happen and an extention to article 50 has been ruled out.
> 
> Labour is not in power.
> The Conservative party is in power.


The People's vote won't happen due to the government we have who are rampant Brexiters. The same can be said from certain senior members of the opposistion.

Brexiters are frightened now much of the truth is out they'll lose their prize. If they believed otherwise they would say, "Bring it on".

And Theresa May had no right to say she would be ending our free movement rights for good. A future PM (not Corbyn!), even a moderate Tory one, could well reverse that in the future just as May is currently undoing the good Major and Blair did during their administrations, examples being the NI peace process and Foxhunting ban to name two.

Not forgetting her undoing Cameron's promises for Scotland if they voted to remain in the UK in 2014. The UK is now very different place to what it was then.

May reminds me of a boss we've all had at some point. Stirs up trouble in order for her to get a reaction then stamps down her authority.

However much Theresa May insists she's doing, " What the British people voted for", ignoring all criticisms from Brexiters and Remainers alike, are you suggesting we all now shut up and obey the Strong and Stable one?

Yes, the Theresa May Naz... Sorry the Conservatives are in power, propped up by an equally nasty group in NI. I guess you'll be feeling uncomfortable about reports the DUP could withdraw their support if May compromises on the border further. I guess the £1.5bn she bribed them with to keep her job would be non-refundable if that was to happen.

I agree with your comments in 4. Why do you believe the Chequers plan is any less fairytales and cherry picking? I mean leaving the SM and CU yet still insist in no Irish border!!! Philip Hammond was more plausible in his response.

When the fascist reign that's taken over the Tory party implodes I see a future potential leader in Philip Hammond.

The fight against Brexit won't end at the end of March next year. "Let me be absolutely clear" on that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> And Theresa May had no right to say she would be ending our rights free movement for good.


She is only telling the truth though. Freedom of movement will end on the 29th March 2019. Sorry you find this hard to swallow.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The fight against Brexit won't end at the end of March next year. "Let me be absolutely clear" on that.


Well it will because Brexit would have happened. You mean you will be campaigning to rejoin because if you are fighting against Brexit you would look a bit silly as it would have happened already.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Any deal struck with the EU will not be renegotiable unless the remaining 27 countries agree to renegotiate it and the EU don't do that very often renegotiate deals. That statement about being able to alter the deal after we leave the EU is false in part as it won't be easy to do that.

The MP's suggesting this are fudging things and trying to cover the wool over the publics eyes.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Yes, the Theresa May Naz...


So your apology was like everything else you put out. Fairy story


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She is only telling the truth though. Freedom of movement will end on the 29th March 2019. Sorry you find this hard to swallow.


I think those Brexiter holidaymakers who expected the ending of free movement to be one sided will find that harder to swallow! At least I predicted that would happen.

A comment from a Brexiter on another forum who has got the message:











stockwellcat. said:


> Well it will because Brexit would have happened. You mean you will be campaigning to rejoin because if you are fighting against Brexit you would look a bit silly as it would have happened already.


The Poll Tax happened as well! Did that shut people up?

The ones who ended up looking silly were the politicians who insisted the Poll Tax was here to stay so we better accept it.....


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370572
> View attachment 370573


Where did you get this information from ?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Any deal struck with the EU will not be renegotiable unless the remaining 27 countries agree to renegotiate it and the EU don't do that very often renegotiate deals. That statement about being able to alter the deal after we leave the EU is false in part as it won't be easy to do that.
> 
> The MP's suggesting this are fudging things and trying to cover the wool over the publics eyes.


As things stand you are probably right as long as the fascist wing of the Tory party remain in power and Corbyn with Labour.

But leaders and governments do change. The EU I'm sure would be prepared to negotiate with a more moderate politician from either party.

If Brexit becomes the predicted disaster, and I've been proven right on most occasions, this might gain much public support.

As I said before, people won't miss what they've never had, but to take things away what had been taken for granted is another matter.

Rather like taking away Sky TV etc. and saying we have to return to watching 2-3 TV channels again!


----------



## kimthecat

Im not against a second referendum or a peoples vote but there is little time left and I cant see it being done in time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I think those Brexiter holidaymakers who expected the ending of free movement to be one sided will find that harder to swallow! At least I predicted that would happen.
> 
> A comment from a Brexiter on another forum who has got the message:
> View attachment 370575
> 
> 
> The Poll Tax happened as well! Did that shut people up?
> 
> The ones who ended up looking silly were the politicians who insisted the Poll Tax was here to stay so we better accept it.....


We aren't talking about the poll tax though.

Once the UK is out of the EU it will be very difficult to renegotiate any deal struck (if any) or get back into the EU. Remember all 27 remaining countries will have to agree on amending any deal struck (if any) and to renegotiate our entry back into the EU if it was to happen. So what is being said about amending any deal made with the EU is just fudge in part


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Where did you get this information from ?


Someone from the pro remain Facebook group The 48% As it was posted by an individual member I've kept his identity anonymous.


----------



## Elles

You’re talking as though no one voted to leave the Eu and we’re being forced into it. 

A leave voter who joins a pro remain Facebook group...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> We aren't talking about the poll tax though.
> 
> Once the UK is out of the EU it will be very difficult to renegotiate any deal struck (if any) or get back into the EU. Remember all 27 remaining countries will have to agree on amending any deal struck (if any) and to renegotiate our entry back into the EU if it was to happen. So what is being said about amending any deal made with the EU is just fudge in part


But like the Poll Tax perhaps people who were persuaded by their papers need to experience the Brexit they all voted for. Theresa May insists this is so, so who's actually won?

Do you obey her without question?

They'll of course pin the blame on the EU for refusing to modify their four freedoms for an insignificant former member just as they tried to blame Labour councils for higher poll tax rates in some areas.

Remember the Michael Howard campaign, "Conservative Councils Cost You Less"? It worked for a while, in the Tory stronghold of Wandsworth at least, but people soon woke up. Opposition to the poll tax grew, even amongst many of its former supporters.

The attitude that we should accept Brexit and shut up is wearing rather thin now. Yes, I know it's going to happen but there's no way I'll be embracing the loss of my civil liberties as a citizen of Europe under any circumstances.

I know I'm not alone and that many in the EU don't see everyone in the UK as a brexiter because of their place of birth.

I remember an Andrew Marr documentary series where at the end he said words to the effect of, "We're all Thatcherites". Insulting!

I have relatives who live within the EU. Are you really grinning with glee it might become difficult and time consuming to attempt to visit them in the future? That assumes we can still afford to do so that is.....


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Im not against a second referendum or a peoples vote but there is little time left and I cant see it being done in time.


Little time left indeed and the government still nowhere near a deal it's been promising over the past two years!



Elles said:


> You're talking as though no one voted to leave the Eu and we're being forced into it.
> 
> A leave voter who joins a pro remain Facebook group...


Sorry for any confusion. Kim I believe was referring to the NHS pay post which came from an individual posting on the 48% FB page. He's always been a remainer.

I did post a short extract by a Brexiter from a similar Brexit forum to this in response to the loss of FOM he doesn't support. As far as I'm aware he otherwise still supports Brexit.

Nevertheless, people can and do change their minds. I'm sure many of the FB groups do feature ex Brexiters in much the same way pro Brexit groups may have ex Remainers as members.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Little time left indeed and the government still nowhere near a deal!


And how do you know that?
The EU are renounned for sealing deals at on the 11th hours 59th minute and 59th second. But again how do you know we are nowhere near a deal? Do you work on the negotiating team?

Yep not long to go.


----------



## KittenKong

More humiliation for Theresa May.
How dare they!:Happy

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-irish-sea-backstop-vote-labour-a8564966.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> And how do you know that?
> The EU are renounned for sealing deals at on the 11th hours 59th minute and 59th second. Bur again how do you know we are nowhere near a deal? Do you work on tge negotiating team?
> 
> Yep not long to go.
> View attachment 370577


Let's say you're right.

Why put people under gross anxiety like this? We're talking about peoples lives, livelihoods, their pets you name it. All because of a vile PM so obsessed with her hostile environment policy and immigration targets.

And bear in mind you might not be getting the Brexit you voted for.

Would you then protest or sit back and accept it? If you do, will others?

Then, you never know. They could cancel Brexit within the last 30 seconds!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Here's why I think a peoples vote won't happen.
> 
> 1. There isn't very many negotiating days left (15 in total as the EU want something by the 18th October) and extending article 50 has been ruled out as we will be leaving on the 29th March 2019.
> 2. All those MP's in the Conservative Party against the Chequers deal want May to remain PM at least until we have left the EU on next year.
> 3. A second referendum has been ruled out as well by the way.
> 4. Corbyn is playing the election card which won't happen either as the numbers don't stack up for a vote of no confidence in Parliament. Corbyn wants a unicorns and rainbows Brexit that includes cherry picking as he wants the UK to stay in the Customs Union and be able to strike trade deals which cannot happen without cherry picking being allowed.
> 5. Again a second referendum has been ruled out.
> 6. Remember Corbyn isn't the PM either May is and her party want her to remain PM even those that were declared to be trying to over throw her want her to remain as PM and they don't want to over throw her.
> 7. May today said she is going to be reasserting her authority as party leader on the Conservative Party on domestic issues.
> 8. Time is rather, rather short to be even contemplating a second referendum it took Cameron and co over a year to get one put together and happen and an extention to article 50 has been ruled out.
> 
> Labour is not in power.
> Conservative party is in power.


Things change.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Things change.


They aren't though are they.


----------



## Arnie83

More and more support for the idea of a People's Vote ...

Lord Willetts today backed the campaign for a second referendum on the outcome of Brexit talks.

The peer, who now chairs the Resolution Foundation think tank, joined a number of Conservative MPs who are calling for the public to have another say before the UK quits the EU. They include former attorney general Dominic Grieve, ex-education secretary Justine Greening, Commons health committee chairwoman Sarah Wollaston, former ministers Guto Bebb, Phillip Lee and Anna Soubry, and outspoken backbencher Heidi Allen.

Lord Willetts said: "The Conservative Party's electoral success is based on our long-term ability to deliver economic success and support wealth creation. *We should not sacrifice that to fulfil the ideological obsessions of a small number of backbenchers in the ERG [Rees-Mogg's lot]*.​
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-backs-second-brexit-referendum-a3951621.html

*That second referendum might just happen*
Daniel Finkelstein in The Times

Is there a majority in parliament for leaving the EU without a deal? No. Is there a majority for staying in the single market Norway-fashion for now? No. Is there a majority for Theresa May's Chequers proposals? No. Is there a majority for a Canadian-style free trade agreement? No. Is there a majority for a second referendum? No. And is there a majority for calling a general election? No.

There isn't a majority for anything.

So if the country isn't simply to reach the end of March 2019 still debating as we fall off the cliff, someone is going to have to move. And it is this - not any of the arguments about not deciding to buy a home before you've seen it - that may yet produce a second referendum.​
At the moment I wouldn't bet on or against anything. Things change.


----------



## Elles

One of the main reasons cited for voting Leave was an end to freedom of movement. So why would people who voted leave now be saying they didn’t know? It was highly publicised and one of the reasons for holding the referendum. 

I think a second vote is more likely to go for leave with no deal than remain. Do you really want that, or are remain voters optimistic that the vote would go the other way next time?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They aren't though are they.


In 2016 people were promised a strong economy with multiple benefits, £350m for the NHS too.

Now, they're told, "Don't worry, we'll get through. Remember the Dunkirk spirit".

That's quite a significant change I think!

But what hasn't and won't change is how the referendum has split the UK in two. Brexit won't make that suddenly disappear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

A Peoples Vote sounds false as it makes it sound the People are in charge and they aren't. The elite and rich are in control of a peoples vote as they are funding it.

There are plenty of examples where the word People is used to reflect that the people are in charge and the People of these countries aren't in control at all.

Peoples Republic of China
Peoples Republic of Korea
Are just two examples.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> They aren't though are they.


Well, yes. All the time, and have been on the Brexit front for 2 years. What we are apparently negotiating now bears no relation whatever to what we were promised in the Referendum.

Easiest negotiation in human history; we hold all the cards; they need us more than we need them; we'll have dozens of trade deals ready to go on day 1; the exact same benefits as while we were members; Canada + + +; the Lancaster House speech etc morphing into Chequers; frictionless trade becomes 'as frictionless as possible'; no more concessions becomes 'No more concessions that aren't in the national interest'; no Tories calling for a People's vote becomes quite a few; Labour rules out a second referendum becomes nothing is off the table ...

Pretty much everything has changed and will continue to do so.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> A Peoples Vote sounds false as it makes it sound the People are in charge and they aren't. The elite and rich are in control of a peoples vote.
> 
> There are plenty of examples where the word People is used to reflect that the people are in charge and the People of these countries aren't in control at all.
> 
> Peoples Republic of China
> Peoples Republic of Korea
> Are just two examples.


Yes I saw that the other day as someone tried to attack the name as a way of attacking the concept.
Didn't mention the People's Princess, or Wimbledon's People's Sunday. Just two counter examples.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Pretty much everything has changed and will continue to do so.


Life changes every day.

Yep. We will leave on the 29th March 2019 and things will change. The UK will be in charge of its borders and free movement will end. See how quick Trump sorted a deal with Mexico and Canada. Didn't take very long did it after he scrapped NAFTA. We'll have our own trade deals in the UK that we won't need to have 27 other countries agree on and the UK will be in charge of these trade deals not Brussels.

Yes things change all the time, if they didn't this world would grind to a halt.


----------



## Arnie83

Clinical trials of a new heart drug have been stopped in the UK because of concerns over Brexit.

Medical research firm Recardio was due to try the drug dutogliptin on patients in Clydebank, Leeds and Exeter.

It has suspended all UK activities due to uncertainty about how new medicines will be approved after Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45727317


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oxford Mail put a scaremongering article up the other day saying that the hospitals in Oxford were short of nurses as EU nurses had left. Are you ready for the punchline? One happy reader said he checked the local recruitment figures which are up not down for nurses and also mentioned there was no adverts to recruit extra nurses because of the supposed shortage. In fact there was no shortage at all as the recruitment figures are up on last year. The paper was then accused of scaremongering and I think the article has since been removed.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> One of the main reasons cited for voting Leave was an end to freedom of movement. So why would people who voted leave now be saying they didn't know? It was highly publicised and one of the reasons for holding the referendum.
> 
> I think a second vote is more likely to go for leave with no deal than remain. Do you really want that, or are remain voters optimistic that the vote would go the other way next time?


But people believed FOM is a one way thing. No one it seems appreciated their freedom to live, work and travel across the EEA states was down to FOM. Many took that for granted and will be horrified to learn that believing, by being British that gives them that right and has nothing to do with EU membership or FOM.

As for your comments below you are probably right. At least if Leave with no deal won Theresa May could no longer insist her Chequers Plan is what people voted for.

Even I who doesn't want any Brexit would rather see no deal than TM getting her own way.

Probably another reason why she won't back a PV.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> A Peoples Vote sounds false as it makes it sound the People are in charge and they aren't.


You didn't say that when you argued people voted to leave the EU!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> But people believed FOM is a one way thing. No one it seems appreciated their freedom to live, work and travel across the EEA states was down to FOM. Many took that for granted and will be horrified to learn that believing, by being British that gives them that right and has nothing to do with EU membership or FOM.
> 
> As for your comments below you are probably right. At least if Leave with no deal won Theresa May could no longer insist her Chequers Plan is what people voted for.
> 
> Even I who doesn't want any Brexit would rather see no deal than TM getting her own way.
> 
> Probably another reason why she won't back a PV.


In the referendum the UK public was told that if they voted to leave freedom of movement would end so the UK could control it's borders and immigration. So what is the Big Deal with what Theresa May has said at the Conference as we were all informed this would happen?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You didn't say that when you argued people voted to leave the EU!


Wasn't advertised as a Peoples Vote though was it, it was advertised as a referendum. The referendum was voted through the houses of parliament into an act and then put to the people.

The title "A Peoples Vote" sounds ridicculous because the people are not in control the elite and rich are (some of whom don't even live in the UK but live in Tax Havens to dodge tax) as they are funding it and at the moment is only a pipe dream.


----------



## Elles

You ought to read up on dutogliptin. 

Of course drug trials in the U.K. could be a waste of time, if drug companies are hoping for Eu wide approval, as we’re leaving the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong

View from a Brexiter.

I have no pleasure in telling her, "I told you so"...

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/02/brit...ll-destroy-our-businesses-7999237/?ito=social


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes things change all the time, if they didn't this world would grind to a halt.


Well I'm glad we sorted that one out! 



stockwellcat. said:


> Yep. We will leave on the 29th March 2019 and things will change. The UK will be in charge of its borders and free movement will end. See how quick Trump sorted a deal with Mexico and Canada. Didn't take very long did it after he scrapped NAFTA. We'll have our own trade deals in the UK that we won't need to have 27 other countries agree on and the UK will be in charge of these trade deals not Brussels.


You're discounting the 20 month transition period then?

Trump bullied both Canada and Mexico into making a few changes to the existing trade deal, all of which were in favour of the US. He is the most protectionist US 'leader' in decades, and people think we are going to get a wonderful trade deal with the US? If they do, they are deluded.

And we already have dozens of trade deals through the EU. We - a fifth the size of the EU - are going to renegotiate them and gain from it? Even Fox is only hoping to cut and paste what we have now, and there's no guarantee he can do it.

Let me ask you a question: *Can you give me a figure, an actual (if estimated) number in terms of GDP percentage, of how much the UK is predicted to gain from a trade deal with the US?*


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Wasn't advertised as a Peoples Vote though was it, it was advertised as a referendum. The referendum was voted through the houses of parliament into an act and then put to the people.
> 
> The title "A Peoples Vote" sounds ridicculous because the people are not in control the elite and rich are (some of whom don't even live in the UK but live in Tax Havens to dodge tax) as they are funding it.


But the sayings, "The _People _have spoken" and of course, "The will of the people" have become frequently used soundbites!

Why is calling a new vote with more options than just remain or leave, be any different to that because the term "People" is used? It's preferable to "EU Referendum 3", taking into consideration the 1975 referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You ought to read up on dutogliptin.
> 
> Of course drug trials in the U.K. could be a waste of time, if drug companies are hoping for Eu wide approval, as we're leaving the Eu.


Isn't that precisely the point?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Wasn't advertised as a Peoples Vote though was it, it was advertised as a referendum. The referendum was voted through the houses of parliament into an act and then put to the people.
> 
> The title "A Peoples Vote" sounds ridicculous because *the people are not in control the elite and rich are *(some of whom don't even live in the UK but live in Tax Havens to dodge tax) as they are funding it and at the moment is only a pipe dream.


So you're saying the 2016 referendum was under the control of the elite and rich, and not the people?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You're discounting the 20 month transition period then?


We won't have that if there is no deal. If we do have this it is to renegotiate our access to EU trade deals and to eat the fudge from any deal made from the current negotiations. Once the deal has been agreed there is no returning to it the EU have made that clear throughout.


> Trump bullied both Canada and Mexico into making a few changes to the existing trade deal, all of which were in favour of the US. He is the most protectionist US 'leader' in decades, and people think we are going to get a wonderful trade deal with the US? If they do, they are deluded.


Do you have proof he bullied them?


> And we already have dozens of trade deals through the EU.


Which the UK has no control of, has no say in and cannot change without consent of 27 other countries and all the districts in Brussels. All the deals are currently governed by the EU.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Isn't that precisely the point?


Yes.

https://www.xconomy.com/san-diego/2...st-labs-after-hitting-clinical-trial-goals/2/

So originally a drug for diabetes, now it's being developed to use with statins to reduce cholesterol. Do we really want American pharma experimenting on us?

As for Brits refusing poorly paid work in less than ideal conditions, that Eu workers have been exploited to do since Poland etc joined. Good.

We're getting more reasons to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So you're saying the 2016 referendum was under the control of the elite and rich, and not the people?


Now you are being silly and twisting things.

The 2016 referendum came out of public funds. The campaigns had donations to them yes but the actual referendum was paid for by public funds via the Government.

The proposed Peoples Vote has been so far sponsored by huge cash injections from the rich and elite and you know it has. It is a one sided campaign started on 24th June 2016. The remainers have been campaigning to overturn the referendum since 24th June 2016 so the whole thing would be unfair as you guys have been campaigning to long. But it won't happen.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Amended how?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Now you are being silly and twisting things.
> 
> The 2016 referendum came out of public funds. The campaigns had donations to them yes but the actual referendum was paid for by public funds via the Government.
> 
> The proposed Peoples Vote has been so far sponsored by huge cash injections from the rich and elite and you know it has. It is a one sided campaign started on 24th June 2016. The remainers have been campaigning to overturn the referendum since 24th June 2016 so the whole thing would be unfair as you guys have been campaigning to long. But it won't happen.


So, the people behind the 2016 weren't rich and elite millionaires?

Don't forget Murdoch, The Barclay brothers and Paul Dacre just to mention a few more!

I've put this up before, just a little reminder.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370592
> View attachment 370593
> View attachment 370594
> View attachment 370595


I don't think the DUP will take notice of one poll in one newspaper.

Amend it how?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> So, the people behind the 2016 weren't rich and elite millionaires? Don't forget Murdoch, The Barclay brothers and Paul Dacre to mention a few more!
> 
> I've put this up before, just a little reminder.
> View attachment 370596


:Yawn
You miss the point.


----------



## stockwellcat.

You know what?
Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Now you are being silly and twisting things.
> 
> The 2016 referendum came out of public funds. The campaigns had donations to them yes but the actual referendum was paid for by public funds via the Government.
> 
> The proposed Peoples Vote has been so far sponsored by huge cash injections from the rich and elite and you know it has. It is a one sided campaign started on 24th June 2016. The remainers have been campaigning to overturn the referendum since 24th June 2016 so the whole thing would be unfair as you guys have been campaigning to long. But it won't happen.


The Remain and Leave received public grants of about £600,000 each.

They could then raise money from private donors and spend up to £7,000,000 each. I.e. the rich and elite. (Vote Leave broke the law by spending more.)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The Remain and Leave received public grants of about £600,000 each.
> 
> They could then raise money from private donors and spend up to £7,000,000 each. I.e. the rich and elite. (Vote Leave broke the law by spending more.)


There is nothing in UK law to stop MP's lying. How do you think they win GE's? British politics has always been like this.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> More humiliation for Theresa May.
> How dare they!:Happy
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-irish-sea-backstop-vote-labour-a8564966.html
> 
> View attachment 370579


Oddly that's what Theresa said. Did you not see her speech?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> We won't have that if there is no deal. If we do have this it is to renegotiate our access to EU trade deals and to eat the fudge from any deal made from the current negotiations. Once the deal has been agreed there is no returning to it the EU have made that clear throughout.


Once the deal is signed that is probably true. Personally I'll be surprised if there is a deal ready to be signed by March. And a No Deal is even less likely, unless our Parliament is ignored.



stockwellcat. said:


> Do you have proof he bullied them?


Oh please. Type "Trump NAFTA bully" into Google and you'll get 7.4 million results. Read any them



stockwellcat. said:


> Which the UK has no control of, has no say in and cannot change without consent of 27 other countries and all the districts in Brussels. All the deals are currently governed by the EU.


Of course we have a say. We contribute to the negotiation and we ratify the result. *Can you give one detail of any existing EU trade deal that you disagree with?
*
And let me ask you a question for the second time: *Can you give me a figure, an actual (if estimated) number in terms of GDP percentage, of how much the UK is predicted to gain from a trade deal with the US?*

I'm sorry to repeat it, but so many Brexiters rubbish the existing arrangements and laud the possibilities of post-Brexit Britain, but have absolutely no projections to suggest how we can do anything but lose.

Surely the future of the country - which means the people who live here, because it sure as hell doesn't mean anything else - is too important to risk on a wing and prayer, on hopes for an economic miracle, but without any objective analysis to show where the promised gains are coming from. Calling all the bad predictions Project Fear only stands up if there is alternative analysis that shows why they are wrong. Minford's ludicrous assumptions and figures aside, I have seen absolutely nothing.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> There is nothing in UK law to stop MP's lying. How do you think they win GE's? British politics has always been like this.


Sorry I don't know what this is the response to. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with public and private funding figures of the 2016 referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> There is nothing in UK law to stop MP's lying. How do you think they win GE's? British politics has always been like this.


Again, General Elections are every five years but guess that won't matter in the future once May achieves her gerrymandering proposals designed to keep the Tories and probably herself in power indefinitely.

Let's pretend it's 1997 again where Tony Blair was elected on a landslide! You didn't like it? You knew what to do.

Even Ken Livingstone argued as GLC leader in the '80s that people had the right to vote him out rather than Thatcher purposely putting him out of a job without a say from the voters.

You may not have liked Livingstone and preferred Sir Horace Cutler as GLC leader, but effectively Thatcher took away people's rights to vote for him as well.


----------



## KittenKong

The Government of tomorrow?


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> But people believed FOM is a one way thing. No one it seems appreciated their freedom to live, work and travel across the EEA states was down to FOM. Many took that for granted and will be horrified to learn that believing, by being British that gives them that right and has nothing to do with EU membership or FOM.


If anyone really is that stupid, then they shouldn't be entitled to vote on anything important - full stop!

People travelled abroad before we joined the EEC (now EU).

As for Brits not doing the jobs eu migrants do, then maybe companies will have to pay a fair wage so that they can afford to take the job instead of being better off on JSA?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You know what?
> Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.


As normal? Really? Impact might not happen immediately but give it a year or two.

Then, we'll see how many continue to embrace Brexit!


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> If anyone really is that stupid, then they shouldn't be entitled to vote on anything important - full stop!
> 
> People travelled abroad before we joined the EEC (now EU).
> 
> As for Brits not doing the jobs eu migrants do, then maybe companies will have to pay a fair wage so that they can afford to take the job instead of being better off on JSA?


Yes, I'm afraid many are. I briefly fell out with a Brexiter friend before the referendum who literally called me stupid for arguing FOM is a two way thing.

He insisted _nothing _would change as our freedom to work, travel, and live/retire in another EEA country will remain identical to what we enjoy now......

And of course the British idiot who complained about immigration in Spain, not appreciating he was one himself!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As normal? Really? Impact might not happen immediately but give it a year or two.
> 
> Then, we'll see how many continue to embrace Brexit!


Can I borrow your crystal ball as you seem to know this will happen? 
It must be great to be able to see in the future. If you cannot see into the future this is scaremongering.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I briefly fell out with a Brexiter friend before the referendum


I haven't fallen out with anyone at all over Brexit. Then again I don't discuss it off here as more things go on in life than discussing Brexit day in and day out off the internet. I do not know anyone who discusses Brexit in public actually.


----------



## Elles

Are they the young people whose future has been ruined by old people voting Brexit?


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370572
> View attachment 370573


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said: ↑
You know what?
Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.

Just wait until the supermarket shelf's are empty while there are long queues of lorries are waiting to get though customs or the factories waiting for parts that may end up closing if the parts aren't getting though fast enough.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The Government of tomorrow?
> View attachment 370598
> View attachment 370599


Apart from the unpleasant NHS bit, I think they're manufacturing a story there.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> stockwellcat. said: ↑
> You know what?
> Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.
> 
> *Just wait until the supermarket shelf's are empty* while there are long queues of lorries are waiting to get though customs or the factories waiting for parts that may end up closing if the parts aren't getting though fast enough.


Most of the shelves were empty in my local Iceland store on Sunday so guess what I did???????????? I went to Sainsburys :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Apart from the unpleasant NHS bit, I think they're manufacturing *a story* there.


And that's all it is *"a story" *to spread more fear.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws said:


> stockwellcat. said: ↑
> You know what?
> Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.
> 
> Just wait until the supermarket shelf's are empty while there are long queues of lorries are waiting to get though customs or the factories waiting for parts that may end up closing if the parts aren't getting though fast enough.


If that's the case, procurement managers will just change the way they do things


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I haven't fallen out with anyone at all over Brexit. Then again I don't discuss it off here as more things go on in life than discussing Brexit day in and day out off the internet. I do not know anyone who discusses Brexit in public actually.


I said _briefly _fell out. He's actually a good friend and life is too short.

We no longer discuss Brexit, I'm not sure if he still supports it to be honest. I certainly won't gloat by saying I was right and he was wrong when I next see him, it'll be up to him if he brings it up.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 370601


I think that must be lost in translation...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> And that's all it is *"a story" *to spread more fear.


In the same sense the other tabloids keep spreading fear about Jeremy Corbyn?

I don't like, nor will vote for Corbyn for one obvious reason, but I don't believe much of what the Tory press say about him.....


----------



## KittenKong

Can Theresa May humiliate herself and the UK more than she has done?

I know she thinks she is the Queen but fancy dancing to a song by a Swedish group. It should've been, "Kisses For Me" by the Brotherhood of Man, the 1976 British Eurovision winner....

End of austerity? Didn't her chancellor Philip Hammond dismiss that?

How can she say that when the impact of Brexit is yet to be fully realised for the economy? I'd say the same to Jeremy Corbyn.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 370601


The EU delaying things again, I see!


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> Are they the young people whose future has been ruined by old people voting Brexit?


*Wild guess that young people's future will be ruined by brexit. The tories have ruined the lives of old and young in this country.*


----------



## KittenKong

Well said and very true I think.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You know what?
> Life outside your home, off your phone or ipad is just going on like normal. No one mentioning the looming Brexit.


Actually, now you mention it the phone I obtained a few months back is designed for and calibrated to work throughout the EU.

May I expect it to suddenly stop working sometime into 2019?

Serious question.


----------



## Magyarmum

Lurcherlad said:


> If anyone really is that stupid, then they shouldn't be entitled to vote on anything important - full stop!
> 
> *People travelled abroad before we joined the EEC (now EU).*
> 
> As for Brits not doing the jobs eu migrants do, then maybe companies will have to pay a fair wage so that they can afford to take the job instead of being better off on JSA?


Exactly! My family and I travelled throughout Europe regularly for both business and pleasure from 1951 onward. All that was needed to drive in Europe was a Green Card although for a few years we were subject to exchange control which if I remember rightly was £50 per person.

From 1957 I worked for the family business which was Dental Supplies and we used to import dental equipment from Germany dental instruments and ceramics from Germany and Switzerland.From Italy we imported autoclaves and In 1962 the Company obtained the franchise for a well known make of Italian Dental Equipment.

All this was long before the UK joined the EU and amazingly we all survived and lived to tell the tale of life independent of our European masters!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Can Theresa May humiliate herself and the UK more than she has done?
> 
> .


Its not her fault that Boris is an arse!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Most of the shelves were empty in my local Iceland store on Sunday so guess what I did???????????? I went to Sainsburys :Hilarious


Nothing to laugh about.

Spare a thought for those without their own transport who are restricted to shopping locally and of course the elderly, especially in more rural parts and places poorly served by public transport.

Many don't have the option to shop elsewhere.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> stockwellcat. said: ↑
> Just wait until the supermarket shelf's are empty while there are long queues of lorries are waiting to get though customs or the factories waiting for parts that may end up closing if the parts aren't getting though fast enough.


How did we cope before we joined the Common market? I dont remember there being shortages on the shelves though I suppose the population number was lower.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Most of the shelves were empty in my local Iceland store on Sunday so guess what I did???????????? I went to Sainsburys :Hilarious


Even worse most of the shelves were empty in my local Spar on Sunday ....... and I don't live in the UK!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Even worse most of the shelves were empty in my local Spar on Sunday ....... and I don't live in the UK!


 Sounds like my local co op on a Sunday ! Their bananas and apples are always squished and bruised too.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Exactly! My family and I travelled throughout Europe regularly for both business and pleasure from 1951 onward. All that was needed to drive in Europe was a Green Card although for a few years we were subject to exchange control which if I remember rightly was £50 per person.
> 
> From 1957 I worked for the family business which was Dental Supplies and we used to import dental equipment from Germany dental instruments and ceramics from Germany and Switzerland.From Italy we imported autoclaves and In 1962 the Company obtained the franchise for a well known make of Dental Equipment.
> 
> All this was long before the UK joined the EU and amazingly we all survived and lived to tell the tale of life independent of our European masters!


You forget the UK was working towards joining the CM. Now with Brexit the EU and UK are becoming rivals if not enemies.

Do you really believe after TM declaring no preferential treatment for EU citizens the EU will not retaliate?

And of course, when windrush extends to EU citizens for the crime of earning under £50K per annum, who'd say the individual countries or the EU itself won't retaliate in a tit-for-tat fashion?

I believe you are a UK citizen living within the EU? I'd be thinking of the possibility of this quite seriously if I were you.


----------



## Arnie83

There's a lot of "It worked before we were in the EU, therefore it'll work when we're out" sort of comments.

And yes, of course it will. The world won't end. Britain won't crash. It will just be more expensive and / or inconvenient for us, that's all.

E.g. Supermarkets in the 60s didn't operate just-in-time supply chains. Over our 4 decades in the single market, they have developed and are the most efficient ways for such companies to operate. When we leave, if there are border checks, as it looks like there will be, supermarkets will have to store and refrigerate their produce, which makes it more expensive. Some of that cost will be passed on to us. Or the lower profits will provide less tax to the government to spend on things not high their priority list, like the environment or animal welfare.

That's how we will be affected. We will simply be poorer than we otherwise would be. Most of us won't even notice after a while because the alternative future that we've voted against won't be there to compare with reality.

Incidentally, if anyone at all wants to help @stockwellcat. out by quoting a credible estimate by anyone (i.e. not Minford) of how much we will gain from a USA trade deal, please do so.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Nothing to laugh about.
> 
> Spare a thought for those without their own transport who are restricted to shopping locally and of course the elderly, especially in more rural parts and places poorly served by public transport.
> 
> Many don't have the option to shop elsewhere.


Stop panicking. The supermarkets, shops etc and supply chains will adjust. We will still be trading with the EU and other countries. Obviously there will be an adjustment period. I don't think for one minute shops will suddenly run dry of everything. It is quite funny seeing all the rubbish being spouted and people believing it all. God knows how we survived before we joined the EC shops had a constant supply back then?

I think rumours that shops will run short of supplies is hyped.

For your information I do not have a car. I walk to the shops. Iceland is less than 5 minutes walk. Sainsburys is less than 5 minutes walk away. I have 6 off licenses near me a Costcutter and Lidl's 15 minutes walk away. When I move I have Waitrose next to me (I won't be shopping there as it is to expensive), Costcutter at the local garage, 4 off licenses, tescos, asda and poundland again I will walk to them.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Amended how?





stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think the DUP will take notice of one poll in one newspaper.
> 
> Amend it how?


Good question. I tried to find the original Derry Journal article but it was no longer available.

But I did find this from RTE on the same subject.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1002/999351-good-friday-agreement/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> There's a lot of "It worked before we were in the EU, therefore it'll work when we're out" sort of comments.
> 
> And yes, of course it will. The world won't end. Britain won't crash. It will just be more expensive and / or inconvenient for us, that's all.
> 
> E.g. Supermarkets in the 60s didn't operate just-in-time supply chains. Over our 4 decades in the single market, they have developed and are the most efficient ways for such companies to operate. When we leave, if there are border checks, as it looks like there will be, supermarkets will have to store and refrigerate their produce, which makes it more expensive. Some of that cost will be passed on to us. Or the lower profits will provide less tax to the government to spend on things not high their priority list, like the environment or animal welfare.
> 
> That's how we will be affected. We will simply be poorer than we otherwise would be. Most of us won't even notice after a while because the alternative future that we've voted against won't be there to compare with reality.
> 
> Incidentally, if anyone at all wants to help @stockwellcat. out by quoting a credible estimate by anyone (i.e. not Minford) of how much we will gain from a USA trade deal, please do so.


Thank you for the mention.

Why you worrying so much?

The world isn't going to end when the UK leaves the EU and guess what life in the UK will just go on like normal.

It's not my job to worry about GDP or what is intailed or how much the UK will gain in creating an American trade deal that's why we have an International Trade Department in the Government. That is their job not mine.

Supermarkets already freeze or refridgerate goods. They have big warehouses of stock which is not seen as we the consumer only see what is on the shop floor.

All I see is some remainers panicking themselves into a frenzy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Good question. I tried to find the original Derry Journal article but it was no longer available.
> 
> But I did find this from RTE on the same subject.
> 
> https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1002/999351-good-friday-agreement/
> View attachment 370616


Who said the Good Friday agreement was up for negotiation?


----------



## stockwellcat.

You do know Varadkar has a minority Government and almost suffered a vote of no confidence on 24th September 2018 which would have triggered a general election? He is hanging onto his job by the end of his finger nails.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Stop panicking. The supermarkets, shops etc and supply chains will adjust. We will still be trading with the EU and other countries. Obviously there will be an adjustment period. I don't think for one minute shops will suddenly run dry of everything. It is quite funny seeing all the rubbish being spouted and people believing it all. God knows how we survived before we joined the EC shops had a constant supply back then?
> 
> I think rumours that shops will run short of supplies is hyped.
> 
> For your information I do not have a car. I walk to the shops. Iceland is less than 5 minutes walk. Sainsburys is less than 5 minutes walk away. I have 6 off licenses near me a Costcutter and Lidl's 15 minutes walk away. When I move I have Waitrose next to me (I won't be shopping there as it is to expensive), Costcutter at the local garage, 4 off licenses, tescos, asda and poundland again I will walk to them.


The warning of stockpiling came from the government, not myself personally. I suggest you take this up with Dominic Rabb and co.

I never considered this to be a possibility except for certain foods. I guess lovers of a paté will have to make do with Shipphams' paste. Puke!

Yes, I'd imagine they'll be plenty of shopping opportunities where you are. When I lived in South Tottenham, close to Seven Sisters 30 years ago we had Tesco and J.Sainsbury's literally next door to each other.

I guess if food does ever become rationed it'll be rural areas that will be the first to suffer. You're convinced this will never happen but....

Remember the fuel crisis through blockades where petrol literally ran out in 2000?

And what if there's a terrible summer where crops are ruined? They'll be no rescue package from Spain anymore but there's always those revolting Cape produce. Will cost a lot more too when many are already struggling to make ends meet.

All this talk of how things used to be before the UK joined the CM. You do realise it could take many years to undo 40+ years of trade deals and the likes and make new ones? Could take years.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The world isn't going to end when the UK leaves the EU and guess what life in the UK will just go on like normal.


Which is precisely what I said in my post.



stockwellcat. said:


> Supermarkets already freeze or refridgerate goods. They have big warehouses of stock which is not seen as we the consumer only see what is on the shop floor.
> 
> All I see is some remainers panicking themselves into a frenzy.


Dave Lewis, Tesco Chief Executive; today: 
"The biggest single challenge will be in a no-deal scenario and what happens with fresh food. The possibility of stockpiling fresh food is very, very limited," Mr Lewis said, adding that supplies of dry food could be built up. He said plans to ensure fresh food imports are not held up is "where all our attention will be in the lead up (to Brexit)".​


stockwellcat. said:


> It's not my job to worry about GDP or what is intailed or how much the UK will gain in creating an American trade deal that's why we have an International Trade Department in the Government. That is their job not mine.


And that's it, is it? Your justification for the claim that a US trade deal will make up for what we lose by leaving the EU is that it's someone else's problem.



stockwellcat. said:


> Why you worrying so much?


Believe me, I'm not worrying at all.

What I am doing is getting very very frustrated at the complete b-s we are being fed by the Tory Brexiters about future trade deals and the way a lot of people are either swallowing the lies hook line and sinker, or are well aware that the country will suffer economically, and are quite happy for that to happen.


----------



## Elles

What will happen if there is a border and a change to the Good Friday agreement?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You do know Varadkar has a minority Government and almost suffered a vote of no confidence on 24th September 2018 which would have triggered a general election? He is hanging onto his job by the end of his finger nails.


The same could be argued re Theresa May of course.

This doesn't necessarily suggest the ROI are considering leaving the EU in favour of joining the UK though does it as much as Brexiters insist this would happen, with Wilders in Holland and LePen winning in France....


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Who said the Good Friday agreement was up for negotistion?
> 
> The Good Friday agreement is between Westminster and Belfast so why is he sticking his conck in as it doesn't affect the Republic.


The Good Friday Agreement doesn't affect the Irish Republic?

You are kidding, of course.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> What will happen if there is a border and a change to the Good Friday agreement?


It has to be negotiated with the British Government and the Northern Irish Government as the agreement was made between Belfast and Westminster and not the EU. Lets not forget we had a common travel area between Ireland and the UK well before the EC/EU existed.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What will happen if there is a border and a change to the Good Friday agreement?


If a hard border goes up in Ireland, then the Good Friday Agreement is no longer an in-force agreement. What will happen is anyone's guess, and a lot of people's fear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The Good Friday Agreement doesn't affect the Irish Republic?
> 
> You are kidding, of course.


No

As you said it doesn't affect the Republic.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Brexiters are frightened now much of the truth is out they'll lose their prize. If they believed otherwise they would say, "Bring it on".


Bring it on.


----------



## KittenKong

I've seen more truth in satirical News Thump articles than in the mainstream media lately...

http://newsthump.com/2018/10/03/abbas-dancing-queen-now-ruined-forever/


----------



## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> The Good Friday Agreement doesn't affect the Irish Republic?
> 
> You are kidding, of course.





stockwellcat. said:


> No


And yet ...



stockwellcat. said:


> It has to be negotiated with the British Government and both of the Irish Governments as the agreement was made between all three of these Governments


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And yet ...


Arnie you are getting very tiresome today. You are looking to just argue for the sake of it. So I will leave things there.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Arnie you are getting very tiresome today. You are looking to just argue for the sake of it. So I will leave things there.


Good idea.

I like facts. If you check them before you post I won't have to correct them and you won't subsequently have to edit them rather than admit you got it wrong.

But if you still think that the GFA doesn't affect the Irish Republic I suggest you do a little research.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Good idea.
> 
> I like facts. If you check them before you post I won't have to correct them and you won't subsequently have to edit them rather than admit you got it wrong.


You have edited/corrected what you have said before and had no one jump at you. I gather you are just in the mood to pick on people today because you don't like what people are saying to you as the reality dawns that Brexit is happening. I happened to be the one on here that you chose to pick on today. So to avoid a full blown confrontation and risk this thread being closed I shall step back and leave you to get into a frenzy worrying about things that have not happened yet.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> There's a lot of "It worked before we were in the EU, therefore it'll work when we're out" sort of comments.
> 
> .


Im sure there are but that was my response to Happypaws post saying the shelves would be bare and it is a justified response. It is highly unlikely the shelves will be bare unless there are strikes by lorry driver or whatever.


----------



## Elles

So no one can answer the question as to what will happen if there is some kind of border and no good Friday agreement? 

The Irish question is given as a very good reason for staying in the Eu, yet no one is prepared to say what will happen?


----------



## Rambo2019

What’s actually happening with Ireland and NI? Will we need a passport to travel to NI and down to the rest of Ireland?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Im sure there are but that was my response to Happypaws post saying the shelves would be bare and it is a justified response. It is highly unlikely the shelves will be bare unless there are strikes by lorry driver or whatever.


I imagine the shelves won`t be entirely bare, not of non perishable goods anyway, but it doesn`t take much for shelves to empty. A bad weather warning snow, severe gales sees the shelves shredded of milk, bread, fresh veg and fruit very quickly. A burst water pipe meaning water is off for a while has people raiding the shelves for bottled water in hours even though the water authority has said they will supply free water (police has to come with the water I presume to prevent fights occurring when someone tries to take it all for themselves) I remember the sugar shortage, goodness when was that early 70`s? Our mild mannered neighbour got arrested because she had heard the local supermarket had let someone have two bags of sugar so she demanded to be allowed to buy two bags also, when the cashier refused she threw the bags down the aisle!
People just act odd if they have cause to think there might be a shortage of something, they might start off with no intention of panic buying and stock piling and believing any initial delay getting food through ports and onto the shelves will soon sort itself out but it won`t belong before they think they best stock up just in case and the shelf stripping begins!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> A Peoples Vote sounds false as it makes it sound the People are in charge and they aren't. The elite and rich are in control of a peoples vote as they are funding it.
> 
> There are plenty of examples where the word People is used to reflect that the people are in charge and the People of these countries aren't in control at all.
> 
> Peoples Republic of China
> Peoples Republic of Korea
> Are just two examples.


You mean One Nation One Party communist dictatorships? In which way it relates to democratic supposedly UK?
Are you trying to compare UK to North Korea?
Because I remember some here jumping high if that was mentioned???


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Im sure there are but that was my response to Happypaws post saying the shelves would be bare and it is a justified response. It is highly unlikely the shelves will be bare unless there are strikes by lorry driver or whatever.


No I think you're right. I can easily see some imported foodstuffs being in short supply (and costing more if they dare) and in some cases it will result in gaps where no gaps usually are. Extended shortages I don't see happening, for the simply reason that it would cost the companies money. They'll find a way.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> If anyone really is that stupid, then they shouldn't be entitled to vote on anything important - full stop!
> 
> People travelled abroad before we joined the EEC (now EU).
> 
> As for Brits not doing the jobs eu migrants do, then maybe companies will have to pay a fair wage so that they can afford to take the job instead of being better off on JSA?


I see it done post Brexit, it will be enough to cut down JSA .... sure Tories will appreciate that solution.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So no one can answer the question as to what will happen if there is some kind of border and no good Friday agreement?
> 
> The Irish question is given as a very good reason for staying in the Eu, yet no one is prepared to say what will happen?


Simply put, the worst case scenario is that bullets will be fired. Hopefully it would only be at the cameras, but who knows. It was a hard-earned peace, and everything I've heard and read suggest it is still fragile.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> I imagine the shelves won`t be entirely bare, not of non perishable goods anyway, but it doesn`t take much for shelves to empty. A bad weather warning snow, severe gales sees the shelves shredded of milk, bread, fresh veg and fruit very quickly. A burst water pipe meaning water is off for a while has people raiding the shelves for bottled water in hours even though the water authority has said they will supply free water (police has to come with the water I presume to prevent fights occurring when someone tries to take it all for themselves) I remember the sugar shortage, goodness when was that early 70`s? Our mild mannered neighbour got arrested because she had heard the local supermarket had let someone have two bags of sugar so she demanded to be allowed to buy two bags also, when the cashier refused she threw the bags down the aisle!
> * People just act odd if they have cause to think there might be a shortage of something, they might start off with no intention of panic buying and stock piling and believing any initial delay getting food through ports and onto the shelves will soon sort itself out but it won`t belong before they think they best stock up just in case and the shelf stripping begins!*


Good point!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Most of the shelves were empty in my local Iceland store on Sunday so guess what I did???????????? I went to Sainsburys :Hilarious


If they have no bread they can eat cakes?

Remember the fate of those who have such ideas? Don't lose your head...


----------



## Lurcherlad

cheekyscrip said:


> I see it done post Brexit, it will be enough to cut down JSA .... sure Tories will appreciate that solution.


Is it not better for British people to do British jobs for a living wage and get off benefits?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You have edited/corrected what you have said before and had no one jump at you. I gather you are just in the mood to pick on people today because you don't like what people are saying to you as the reality dawns that Brexit is happening. I happened to be the one on here that you chose to pick on today. So to avoid a full blown confrontation and risk this thread being closed I shall step back and leave you to get into a frenzy worrying about things that have not happened yet.


I just like facts. And the corollary is that I don't like them being willfully ignored. Consider it a foible.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> So no one can answer the question as to what will happen if there is some kind of border and no good Friday agreement?
> 
> The Irish question is given as a very good reason for staying in the Eu, yet no one is prepared to say what will happen?


And the very minor issue of thousands of Brits and other people who live in Spain and work in Gib? How our supplies will cross? Tourists? Medicines? The use of Spanish hospitals and airports that we need badly for emergencies? Planes cannot go back to UK if weather changes and many lives were saved in hospitals in Spain, our small hospital cannot deal with many cases and transport to UK might take too long or be too dangerous.
Even bringing rare blood group - life and death , but for those who live in mainland Britain it does not matter who might die here.
Same for pets - more complicated cases have to be treated in Spain, so with hard borders and EU pet passport not valid if animals cannot be treated in Spain then will die.
SWC imagine it will be your little one.
Garfield might need operation in the future if he gets worse... it might even happen quite suddenly.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> You mean One Nation One Party communist dictatorships? In which way it relates to democratic supposedly UK?
> Are you trying to compare UK to North Korea?
> Because I remember some here jumping high if that was mentioned???


If I remember rightly you were the one who predicted the UK being reduced to a Cuba or North Korea. I don't for one minute think @stockwellcat implied that happening rather he was referring to the casual use of the word "people(s)!


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Just wait until the supermarket shelf's are empty while there are long queues of lorries are waiting to get though customs or the factories waiting for parts that may end up closing if the parts aren't getting though fast enough.


Global warming will end our food supplies before anything else. Brexit will hardly be noticed other than a small price rise in some products.
I noticed that Tesco is now joining all the other supermarkets and starting to offer more home grown food. Got to be good for our farmers and consumers get a more reliably ethical product.



KittenKong said:


> I guess if food does ever become rationed it'll be rural areas that will be the first to suffer. You're convinced this will never happen but....


They will be the last to suffer, they can grow or hunt their own


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> If I remember rightly you were the one who predicted the UK being reduced to a Cuba or North Korea. I don't for one minute think @stockwellcat implied that happening rather he was referring to the casual use of the word "people(s)!


Not quite the words... SWC put a bit of a spin on it... then came up with China and NK ... with a little spin on it... lol


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It has to be negotiated with the British Government and the Northern Irish Government as the agreement was made between Belfast and Westminster and not the EU. Lets not forget we had a common travel area between Ireland and the UK well before the EC/EU existed.


The CTA was before the UK and ROI joined the Common Market.

The UK a unilaterally chose to leave the EU. The ROI didn't and won't.

The CTA is a thing of the past, like pre Decimal currency. You can't bring it back because the UK has left.

The UK no longer have a hold over Ireland. It's an independent country.

The way May and co are behaving you'd think the EU were leaving the British Empire.

The ROI is an EU member, the UK will soon not be. To "Take control of borders" the EU will have to do the same thus as things stand they must be a border between an EU country and the UK which will include the ROI.

That all so nice Mr Rees-Mogg suggested checks just like they used to do during the troubles after Brexit day. Oh for nostalgia!

Two things could have avoided this. Either staying in the EU or TM accepting EEA membership, which as we know has been ruled out by TM.

So we know who to blame when it all goes haywire.

Not the EU
Not the ROI


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Not quite the words... SWC put a bit of a spin on it... then came up with China and NK ... with a little spin on it... lol


No I didn't. You are spinning it right now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> If I remember rightly you were the one who predicted the UK being reduced to a Cuba or North Korea. I don't for one minute think @stockwellcat implied that happening rather *he was referring to the casual use of the word "people(s)*!


This is exactly what I was implying @cheekyscrip (the bit in bold).

I didn't and never have compared the UK to North Korea. Please @cheekyscrip read what is being said instead of spinning things that haven't been said.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The CTA was before the UK and ROI joined the Common Market.


Correct.


> *You forget the UK a unilaterally chose to leave the EU.*


Yep and cannot wait until it happens. The day after I will wake up and go have we really left as nothing has changed.

I cannot be bothered replying to the rest of this. Sorry my energy levels are a bit low today to have to go over things that have already been discussed before and it is getting pointless having to keep repeating things.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> Is it not better for British people to do British jobs for a living wage and get off benefits?


Oh, we agree on it, Brits can pick very own British cucumbers and strawberries, look after own elderly and children... They may even shed a few pounds and considering UK is leading EU in obesity ranks ...there is some advantage in that...
More expensive food will mean less waste, more home grown and home brewed  ...
I remember the 80 ties in Poland, food rationing, empty shelves.
To this day I prefer mushroom to meat and use no sugar.

Oranges only for Christmas.
No electricity half of the time...
Baby boom as a result!

Impossibility to travel on our blue then passports...
Deja vu...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> This is exactly what I was implying @cheekyscrip (the bit in bold).
> 
> I didn't and never have compared the UK to North Korea. Please @cheekyscrip read what is being said instead of spinning things that haven't been said.


Naughty me ... so how do you like it when people don't read, pick and mix and jump to conclusions??? :Happy:Mooning
Not to mention convenience of ignorance of any factual evidence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Naughty me ... so how do you like it when people don't read, pick and mix and jump to conclusions??? :Happy:Mooning
> Not to mention convenience of ignorance of any factual evidence.


Assumptions and facts are two different things. I see alot of assumptions from people guessing things if Brexit happens. The facts will be revealed when the event has concluded.


----------



## KittenKong

Rambo2019 said:


> What's actually happening with Ireland and NI? Will we need a passport to travel to NI and down to the rest of Ireland?


That's unlikely for Irish born or related individuals who are currently allowed dual citizenship ,(UK and ROI/EU). I guess they'll be able to use the appropriate passport whichever way they are going.

As for those who are only allowed a UK passport, they might have to meet the usual criteria of Visas, International Driving Permits before being allowed to cross the border.

Some might remember the Berlin Wall between East and West Germany.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Assumption and facts are two different things. I see alot of assumptions if Brexit happens. The facts will happen when the event has concluded.


Like the biggest assumption that Britain will be better off or have better trade deals after Brexit?
That Brexit will bring any changes that will outweigh our obvious loses like E111, EU passports for us and our families? Rights to live and work in EU countries as equals, not to mention Irish and Spanish frontier?
Brexit is built on assumptions!!!
Not facts.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> That's unlikely for Irish born or related individuals who are currently allowed dual citizenship ,(UK and ROI/EU). I guess they'll be able to use the appropriate passport whichever way they are going.
> 
> As for those who are only allowed a UK passport, they might have to meet the usual criteria of Visas, International Driving Permits before being allowed to cross the border.
> 
> Some might remember the Berlin Wall between East and West Germany.....


I haven't noticed the DUP demanding that those in NI should relinquish their EU citizenship so that they're not being treated any differently from the rest of the UK.


----------



## KittenKong

What is she afraid of?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370646
> 
> What is she afraid of?


Maybe she doesn't have time. The Conference is still on . She was interviewed on Andrew Marr show on Sunday.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Maybe she doesn't have time. The Conference is still on . She was interviewed on Andrew Marr show on Sunday.


but she left straight after her speech.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Chequers has been dropped from the deal. Well the title at least. The Deal still stands but without Chequers in the title :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Like the biggest assumption that Britain will be better off or have better trade deals after Brexit?
> That Brexit will bring any changes that will outweigh our obvious loses like E111, EU passports for us and our families? Rights to live and work in EU countries as equals, not to mention Irish and Spanish frontier?
> Brexit is built on assumptions!!!
> Not facts.


Some facts happened already. Pounds fell dramatically for example.
Companies are moving out.
Fewer nurses from EU apply for jobs in UK, fewer scientists, fewer EU students will come to study in UK.
I need no cristal ball to predict that prices of products and profits will be affected if we are out of custom union. 
Financial services will suffer and the City generates like a quarter of national budget.

I know winter has not happened yet, but it will get colder.

Britain was growing and prosperous in EU and will be much less when out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I haven't noticed the DUP demanding that those in NI should relinquish their EU citizenship so that they're not being treated any differently from the rest of the UK.


Deleted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Like the biggest assumption that Britain will be better off or have better trade deals after Brexit?
> That Brexit will bring any changes that will outweigh our obvious loses like E111, EU passports for us and our families? Rights to live and work in EU countries as equals, not to mention Irish and Spanish frontier?
> Brexit is built on assumptions!!!
> Not facts.


Sorry. What is an E111? Do you mean EHIC?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Maybe she doesn't have time. The Conference is still on . She was interviewed on Andrew Marr show on Sunday.


*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 24h24 hours ago
Owen Jones Retweeted Ben de Pear
*
The BBC need to ask themselves some pretty searching questions about why they're the only broadcasters the Tories are happy to let interview the Prime Minister - and why David Cameron, Boris Johnson, George Osborne and Theresa May all hired senior BBC figures as their spindoctors*


*Ben de Pear*‏Verified account @bendepear Oct 2
Ben de Pear Retweeted Jon Snow
*
The @10DowningStreet press office have granted @theresa_may interviews to 20 @BBCNews journalists during conference; none for @Channel4News or @5_News and there is solidarity across broadcasters that this is a dangerous precedent*

*Jim Waterson*‏Verified account @jimwaterson 3h3 hours ago
*
Britain's news broadcasters have collectively written to Downing Street to complain that Theresa May has not been available for interview by certain broadcasters during Tory conference. Letter draws comparisons with attempts to exclude specific outlets in Trump's America.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry. What is an E111? Do you mean EHIC?


Health. Card . Valid in EU. Essencial for expats and tourists. 
No, insurance covers a lot less. Think preexisting conditions or accidents under influence. Negligence. 
Many pensioners living in EU now have to consider moving back to UK.

I see that happening right now...
Great news for NHS.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Health. Card . Valid in EU.


For UK Holiday Makers going to EU countries not for UK residents living abroad in EU countries. UK residents in the EU have to pay for medical insurance in the country they decide to reside in.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> For UK Holiday Makers going to EU countries not for UK residents living abroad in EU countries. UK residents in the EU have to pay for medical insurance in the country they decide to reside in.


I was a resident in Spain and was covered, no need for any extra insurance. My child was born there. I was not working then. Was on sabbatical. Paid no tax, still covered. My child was covered even when we refused Spanish passport. They actually tried to force us to more medical care than was healthy!

Yes, there are other forms for EU residents in Spain, you are even entitled to social care or nursing home same as locals if you are EU citizen.

Nothing though if you are not.
Same with education.

No work permit either.

If you EU citizen you have the same rights as local people basically.
But EU countries may demand you found work or proved your income after three months stay.

UK had the same rights if wanted to use them to curb immigration. - or you have work or sufficient income/funds to live on, else go back.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> but she left straight after her speech.


Maybe she lost her voice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I was a resident in Spain and was covered, no need for any extra insurance. My child was born there. I was not working then. Was on sabbatical. Paid no tax, still covered. My child was covered even when we refused Spanish passport. They actually tried to force us to more medical care than was healthy!


Some countries do ask you to contribute. Here are the terms.

















https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/he...r-a-free-ehic-european-health-insurance-card/


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Maybe she lost her voice.


I thought she was funny. She cannot dance but came onto dancing queen playing.:Hilarious

She was talking about ending austerity if the UK gets a deal with the EU and making the Conservative Party the party for everyone. She also didn't refer to the Chequers Deal as that she refered to it as something else (I cannot remember what she called it). It seems she has dropped Chequers from the title.


----------



## Arnie83

I thought she failed the Turing test.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I thought she was funny. She cannot dance but came onto dancing queen playing.:Hilarious
> 
> She was talking about ending austerity if the UK gets a deal with the EU and making the Conservative Party the party for everyone. She also didn't refer to the Chequers Deal as that she refered to it as something else (I cannot remember what she called it). It seems she has dropped Chequers from the title.


I think she found her Waterloo.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I thought she failed the Turing test.


:Hilarious


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> So no one can answer the question as to what will happen if there is some kind of border and no good Friday agreement?
> 
> The Irish question is given as a very good reason for staying in the Eu, yet no one is prepared to say what will happen?


Been out so late to this particular party. The GFA relies on having the best of both worlds - Loyalists/Unionists being convinced they are, and will remain, part of the UK and Nationalists believing they are part of the island of Ireland with no borders. They are all Irish citizens. It all works swimmingly well with us all part of the EU because that could be the focus - a sort of one nation idea with each side choosing which nation in their own heads. Putting in any sort of hard border takes that away from any and every nationalist so there's every chance that the armed struggle to reunite Ireland returns.

Could we go back to the days of British soldiers in the streets? I doubt it because we simply don't have the numbers any more. All the armed forces have been stripped to the bone.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> Been out so late to this particular party. The GFA relies on having the best of both worlds - Loyalists/Unionists being convinced they are, and will remain, part of the UK and Nationalists believing they are part of the island of Ireland with no borders. They are all Irish citizens. It all works swimmingly well with us all part of the EU because that could be the focus - a sort of one nation idea with each side choosing which nation in their own heads. Putting in any sort of hard border takes that away from any and every nationalist so there's every chance that the armed struggle to reunite Ireland returns.
> 
> Could we go back to the days of British soldiers in the streets? I doubt it because we simply don't have the numbers any more. All the armed forces have been stripped to the bone.


If you were born in NI you can apply for Irish passport I suppose?
Because a friend of ours born in Belfast is doing it, in case of hard border with Spain.
Potentially if NI does pretty poorly out of Brexit and Ireland goes up the problem may solve itself if Irish passport holders outnumber the British in NI...
A referendum perhaps? Britain respecting the will of the people?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She was talking about ending austerity if the UK gets a deal with the EU and making the Conservative Party the party for everyone. She also didn't refer to the Chequers Deal as that she refered to it as something else (I cannot remember what she called it). It seems she has dropped Chequers from the title.


A complete and utter load of bo****is. Nothing new in her speech at all. Just the usual " You must Unite behind my Brexit plan" and "Party that works for everyone" soundbites. Everything else..... A pile of jingoistic vomit that made Boris Johnson's speech sound plausible in comparison.

She may have twisted you around her little finger but she doesn't fool me on bit. I'll refrain from commenting further for fear of upsetting fans of their strong and stable leader. You know, the one who insists on delivering a Brexit deal people voted for which is true because she says so. You might disagree with Chequers but you're ordered to obey her and comply. Just like the rest if us are. Like hell we will!

The BBC News reporting of this was the biggest Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Tory, since the Falklands war. Could be an election looming???

What amused me at the start of tonight's news was the, "We'll hear reactions" to her speech after the news report. I took that to mean a spokesperson from Labour and the Lib Dems, not Tory party delegates and their two journalists who cannot be regarded as impartial.

Then, the same day May refuses to be interviewed by Jon Snow on CH4 news. I wonder why?

Let's face it folks. When Theresa May wins the next general election through such media bias and press support it'll be the last to remotely resemble any form of democracy.

Their gerrymandering reforms will ensure her remaining in power in definitely, or whoever she chooses to succeed her. Future elections will be like Zimbabwe under Robert Muwgabe.

Oh, by the way, no mention of the Irish border in her speech- at least the BBC News didn't include that if it was mentioned.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The BBC News reporting of this was the biggest Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Tory, since the Falklands war. Could be an election looming???


No they didn't. Just read the BBC News online and they didn't say anything of the sought.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45725615


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> If you were born in NI you can apply for Irish passport I suppose?


In most cases yes but it takes a bit more than just being born there. The south never abandoned its citizens in the north so they are Irish citizens - they don't have to apply for a passport to be so. Having one is just the paper proof, many British citizens don't have a passport but they're still British citizens.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> Some countries do ask you to contribute. Here are the terms.
> View attachment 370651
> 
> View attachment 370652
> 
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/he...r-a-free-ehic-european-health-insurance-card/


Oh, how well I know it doesn't cover mountain rescue in ski resorts


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> A complete and utter load of bo****is. Nothing new in her speech at all. Just the usual " You must Unite behind my Brexit plan" and "Party that works for everyone" soundbites. Everything else..... A pile of jingoistic vomit that made Boris Johnson's speech sound plausible in comparison.
> 
> She may have twisted you around her little finger but she doesn't fool me on bit. I'll refrain from commenting further for fear of upsetting fans of their strong and stable leader. You know, the one who insists on delivering a Brexit deal people voted for which is true because she says so. You might disagree with Chequers but you'r
> 
> The BBC News reporting of this was the biggest Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Tory, since the Falklands war. Could be an election looming???
> 
> What amused me at the start of tonight's news was the, "We'll hear reactions" to her speech after the news report. I took that to mean a spokesperson from Labour and the Lib Dems, not Tory party delegates and their two journalists who cannot be regarded as impartial.
> 
> Then, the same day May refuses to be interviewed by Jon Snow on CH4 news. I wonder why?
> 
> Let's face it folks. When Theresa May wins the next general election through such media bias and press support it'll be the last to remotely resemble any form of democracy.
> 
> Their gerrymandering reforms will ensure her remaining in power in definitely, or whoever she chooses to succeed her. Future elections will be like Zimbabwe under Robert Muwgabe.
> 
> Oh, by the way, no mention of the Irish border in her speech- at least the BBC News didn't include that if it was mentioned.


I see the usual over inflated hate towards Theresa May from you.

No she hasn't won me over. Again read my post I was laughing at her Dancing Queen act.

Me personally, if there was a General Election tomorrow would not vote Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, Greens or whoever else I left off the list. I will be refraining from voting in a General Election if it happened.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I was laughing at her Dancing Queen act.


I was eating a slice of toast and I nearly choked, she looked such a dip stick..


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> Potentially if NI does pretty poorly out of Brexit and Ireland goes up the problem may solve itself if Irish passport holders outnumber the British in NI...
> A referendum perhaps? Britain respecting the will of the people?


The GFA allows for a poll under _roughly _those conditions - though again, don't get caught up in the idea of it being about passports. They are irrelevant.

NI exists as a loyalist enclave. It was deliberately created as such - the six counties being partitioned because they created an area of loyalist majority. I have no idea how those numbers stack up these days or how any vote might go. There are other issues nowadays which could lead to a greater number of protestant nationalists than ever before.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I was eating a slice of toast and I nearly choked, she looked such a dip stick..


She was doing the May Bot to Dancing Queen  :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Health. Card . Valid in EU. *Essencial for expats* and tourists.
> No, insurance covers a lot less. Think preexisting conditions or accidents under influence. Negligence.
> Many pensioners living in EU now have to consider moving back to UK.
> 
> I see that happening right now...
> Great news for NHS.


Incorrect at least in Hungary and I suspect the rest of the EU. As a permanent resident I have a TAJ card which entitles me to the same free medical treatment as a Hungarian citizen. I also have a Hungarian ID card which allows me to travel to other EU countries without having to show a passport, and an OAP card which allows me to travel free anywhere in Hungary

And I for one certainly won't consider moving back to the UK.

Why on earth would I want to live in such a seemingly defeatist and pessimistic society.

No thank you - I'll stay where I am!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Incorrect at least in Hungary and I suspect the rest of the EU. As a permanent resident I have a TAJ card which entitles me to the same free medical treatment as a Hungarian citizen. I also have a Hungarian ID card which allows me to travel to other EU countries without having to show a passport, and an OAP card which allows me to travel free anywhere in Hungary
> 
> And I for one certainly won't consider moving back to the UK.
> 
> Why on earth would I want to live in such a seemingly defeatist and pessimistic society.
> 
> No thank you - I'll stay where I am!


Oh you make Hungary sound a really cool place that looks after it's citizens


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh you make Hungary sound a really cool place that looks after it's citizens


.

It is beautiful and Hungarians are fantastic.
Food is spicy and climate is very pleasant.
Brave nation too.
Lots of wine...definitely on my "go to" list.

You should visit MM!!! While you still can.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> No she hasn't won me over. Again read my post I was laughing at her Dancing Queen act.





Happy Paws said:


> I was eating a slice of toast and I nearly choked, she looked such a dip stick..


I think the whole point of the tune and her weird dance was a joke. She was taking the pee out of herself and her lack of dancing prowess


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You forget the UK was working towards joining the CM. Now with Brexit the EU and UK are becoming rivals if not enemies.
> 
> Do you really believe after TM declaring no preferential treatment for EU citizens the EU will not retaliate?
> 
> And of course, when windrush extends to EU citizens for the crime of earning under £50K per annum, who'd say the individual countries or the EU itself won't retaliate in a tit-for-tat fashion?
> 
> I believe you are a UK citizen living within the EU? I'd be thinking of the possibility of this quite seriously if I were you.


You really are a little ray of sunshine aren't you?

As the average annual gross salary in Hungary is 7 754 690 forint which is £22K which nett is 5 221 776 forint or £18K the government would have to kick out an awful lot of people!

For someone to earn anything near 50K they would need a Masters degree plus several years experience in their particular field which means the few that do are mainly CEO's of the major Hungarian companies

I'm not sure what Windrush has got to do with the price of eggs, as they say??????

There are an estimated 55 000 British expats living in this country most of whom like me are retired. I doubt very much that the Government can be bothered, under the cover of darkness, to tear us all from our nice warm beds to tell us to ***** back off to where we came from - which in my case would be to South Africa!

But thank you for thinking of me!


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I think the whole point of the tune and her weird dance was a joke. She was taking the pee out of herself and her lack of dancing prowess


It was quite funny though and good on her to be able to take the pee out of herself


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> .
> 
> It is beautiful and Hungarians are fantastic.
> Food is spicy and climate is very pleasant.
> Brave nation too.
> Lots of wine...definitely on my "go to" list.
> 
> You should visit MM!!! While you still can.


I might just do that and then fly to the rock as well and see what all the fuss is about.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tesco-food-stockpiling-no-deal-brexit-a8566571.html


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I think she found her Waterloo.


More like "SOS" for us I'd imagine.

Interesting item popped up on FB about Abba members being unhappy their music was used by a far-right Danish party in 2010.

The excellent Irish group Horslips voiced their objection to Farage using their music during his failed attempt at persuading the ROI to leave the EU and join the UK.

Good on them.

I don't like Abba's music as, like Queen, even though I don't like their records I have a great deal of respect for them both for their songwriting abilities and originality. Both deserve all credit due to them.

I wonder how they would take to another far right politician using their music today?
















https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11403230


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> The excellent Irish group Horslips


They sure were! Saw them at Finsbury Park a few years ago - brought back some memories


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Hilarious






:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


>


:Vomit

:Vomit


----------



## stockwellcat.

After the conference ended today Theresa May fired the starting gun to get a deal sorted. The negotiations are going to be intense over the next 2 weeks to seal this deal before the 18th October 2018.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> They sure were! Saw them at Finsbury Park a few years ago - brought back some memories


One of my favourites is ,"The Power And The Glory" from 1977. It was on the Radio Tees 257 playlist which was my first encounter of them.

One of those records that sounds just as good today as it did when new.

Should have been a massive hit.
My copy's on green vinyl by the way.

http://www.45cat.com/record/djs10792


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> :Vomit
> 
> :Vomit


Come on you have to laugh. At least she was able to laugh about herself and make fun of herself. Jeremy Corbyn never done this at the Labour Conference.

I think Theresa May made Hammonds job harder as she said that austerity would end if a deal with the EU was struck. Will November's budget be delayed whilst he reworks the figures so no one is being penalised and no more cuts happen?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> After the conference ended today Theresa May fired the starting gun to get a deal sorted. The negotiations are going to be intense over the next 2 weeks to seal this deal before the 18th October 2018.


Jeezus. Make up your bloody mind!
One minute you're against the Chequers plan and wanted no deal, now you appear to support it.

If your beloved leader was going to get a deal it should have been done two years ago.

How many more times must she fire the gun?

You recently accused me of falling for Corbyn's charm after his speech. As much as I'm a red flag Labour traditionalist that wasn't true. Brexit isn't on the agenda as far as I'm concerned so he won't get my support.

It seems May has most certainly twisted you around her little finger.

I hope the EU tell her to F*** off as it isn't them leaving the British Empire.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Jeezus. Make up your bloody mind!
> One minute you're against the Chequers plan and wanted no deal, now you appear to support it.
> 
> If your beloved leader was going to get a deal it should have been done two years ago.
> 
> How many more times must she fire the gun?
> 
> You recently accused me of falling for Corbyn's charm after his speech. As much as I'm a red flag Labour traditionalist that wasn't true. Brexit isn't on the agenda as far as I'm concerned so he won't get my support.
> 
> It seems May has most certainly twisted you around her little finger.
> 
> I hope the EU tell her to F*** off as it isn't them leaving the British Empire.


What's all the aggression about?

Nobodies twisted me around any little or large finger and no May hasn't won me over or has Corbyn. I just want this Brexit over with as in we leave the EU.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I hope the EU tell her to F*** off


So do I :Smuggrin


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Come on you have to laugh. At least she was able to laugh about herself and make fun of herself. Jeremy Corbyn never done this at the Labour Conference.
> 
> I think Theresa May made Hammonds job harder as she said that austerity would end if a deal with the EU was struck. Will November's budget be delayed whilst he reworks the figures so no one is being penalised and no more cuts happen?


No, nothing this vile and disgusting woman does is remotely amusing. Try telling that to the Windrush victims her policies targeted. She belongs in the National Front of the '70'.

Remember, "If they're black, send them back"? The famous NF soundbite and their quest for a "White Britain"?

The majority of the Windrush victims were *none white people, *just as those "Go home or face arrest" vans patrolled predominantly "Non white" areas.

I'll refrain from commenting further at this point.

Hammond recently said austerity will continue. I obviously dislike the man but he's been the most honest in recent times. If I was a gambling person I believe he'd be the favourite to succeed Theresa May. Not all Tories are vile extreme right wing fascists.

After all, when Thatcher was ousted on that magical day in 1990 John Major, a moderate, took her place.

For May to lie, sorry suggest austerity will end next year is pure fantasy with the predictions the economy will suffer, in the same sense with Corbyn's promises which might have been plausible had he not re-enforced his support for Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> What's all the aggression about?
> 
> Nobodies twisted me around any little or large finger and no May hasn't won me over or has Corbyn. I just want this Brexit over with as in we leave the EU.


It's not agression, more frustration.
I would have thought you'd prefer May to have been replaced by someone who isn't trying to revive the equivalent of a DoDo, expecting others to grovel to her feet.

It pains me to say this, but Boris Johnson's speech yesterday was certainly more plausible in comparison.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Brilliantly worded.

I cringe at some pro Labour memes I've seen on Facebook, "Love Corbyn, Hate Brexit". How does that work? Bizarre when it should be, "Ditch Corbyn, Ditch Brexit".

If only the EU had the authority to suspend Parliament and rule from Brussels until suitable replacements are found.

Brexiters will no doubt throw their hands up in horror at this suggestion. But isn't that what TM has done in NI (aided by the DUP) and attempting to do in Scotland?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Brilliantly worded.
> 
> I cringe at some pro Labour memes I've seen on Facebook, "Love Corbyn, Hate Brexit". How does that work? Bizarre when it should be, "Ditch Corbyn, Ditch Brexit".
> 
> *If only the EU had the authority to suspend Parliament and rule from Brussels until suitable replacements are found.*
> 
> Brexiters will no doubt throw their hands up in horror at this suggestion. But isn't that what TM has done in NI (aided by the DUP) and attempting to do in Scotland?


I think it is the (wrongly) perceived possibility of such powers being grabbed by Brussels that will have persuaded some voters to choose the Leave tick box.

But without a question of a doubt the referendum decision has been taken and used by the right wing Tories as a shield from behind which they can launch changes to the UK economy which no person-in-the-street voter ever envisaged in 2016. Membership of the Thatcher-inspired single market prevents the regulatory bonfire that they crave. Getting rid of what they disingenuously call 'red tape' will allow them to increase their wealth without the irritating need to protect the planet and its inhabitants, whether from environmental damage or from unfettered market forces that treat people as just another inanimate resource to be used at minimum cost and discarded when a cheaper alternative becomes available.

It is the assumption of that future on which Minford - supported by Rees-Mogg - bases his calculations of an economic Brexit gain. It is that future to which a No Deal Brexit would move us a step closer.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Maybe she doesn't have time. The Conference is still on . She was interviewed on Andrew Marr show on Sunday.


The BBC are the biggest Tory propaganda machine going. No wonder she agrees to be interviewed by them! You only had to watch the BBC News last night, biggest Tory propaganda bulletin I've seen since the Falklands War.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Could we go back to the days of British soldiers in the streets? I doubt it because we simply don't have the numbers any more. All the armed forces have been stripped to the bone.


Along with the death penalty I can see a reintroduction of conscription within the next 10 years. They'll be no shortage of soldiers then. They won't be paid, they'd get pocket money.

Around the same time I would imagine with May's persistent refusal to allow Scotland an independence referendum while transferring Holyrood powers back to Westminster a Cantona-like Scottish independence referendum could occur with equally unpleasant consequences.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No they didn't. Just read the BBC News online and they didn't say anything of the sought.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45725615


Of course there was no mention of a general election, as they wasn't during the Falklands War....

It's drip fed propaganda. Just as hatred towards the EU was by most UK media outlets.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It's drip fed propaganda.


You make it sound as if we live in a communist state/regime.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Just as hatred towards the EU was by most UK media outlets.


I have never seen any hatred towards the EU on my TV or heard it on my radio.


----------



## kimthecat

I wonder what Angela Leadson strategy would have been if sh e had been voted leader.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I wonder what Angela Leadson strategy would have been if sh e had been voted leader.


The thing is if a Brexitier was in charge I believe we wouldn't be sat here discussing what if's and maybe's about what Brexit might be like as it would have probably already happened.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I have never seen any hatred towards the EU on my TV or heard it on my radio.


Well, perhaps not on the TV directly though there was always a sense of negativity by the reporting.

Then, where do I start with the usual tabloid press......

Compare that to the BBC News yesterday. Fiona Bruce was grinning like a Cheshire cat in promoting, sorry reporting on May's speech. This newsreader persona is usually restricted to reporting on the royal family.

Saw all this before with the Falklands. I think it was ITN who reported that a father of a soldier expressed he was proud his son died for his country.

I can just imagine if the Falklands War happened under Tony Blair. They'll be condemning him for allowing it to happen to this day with shouts of, "War criminal" from the left and right alike.

For Thatcher though, it saved her ailing and very unpopular, (probably more so than May), premiership. She was then free to inflict her cruel and wicked policies on many who voted for her.

Another thing I find bizarre. Labour under Michael Foot promoted EEC withdrawal, something I supported at the time.

Then why are older Brexiters moaning they had to wait over 40 years to repeat their No vote again when it could've been done only 8 years later?!

Then, as I've always said 98% of the media is hugely Tory biased.

Before I get called otherwise, back in the day the only media sources available to the public were the BBC and ITN. We saw it through their eyes. Then the press which needs a thread on its own.

Likewise in other countries of course, notably Iron Curtain countries. In my TVDX days I well remember watching the Polish news during Martial Law, the news reader was in uniform.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> The BBC are the biggest Tory propaganda machine going. No wonder she agrees to be interviewed by them! You only had to watch the BBC News last night, biggest Tory propaganda bulletin I've seen since the Falklands War.


Really is it? Even the Independent can't decide.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ay-laura-keunssberg-andrew-marr-a7844826.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ience-theresa-may-conservatives-a7766311.html


----------



## stuaz

I know someone who works at the BBC, a good friend actually. They once told me that they nearly get equal amounts of people saying they are too left leaning and also get complaints that they are too right leaning. 

Which probably means they are sitting in the middle somewhere :Hilarious

Can't please everyone though!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The thing is if a Brexitier was in charge I believe we wouldn't be sat here discussing what if's and maybe's about what Brexit might be like as it would have probably already happened.


But threads like this would continue with much of what has been predicted having already happened.

Possibly discussing excruciating high prices in supermarkets and rationing of food, fuel and medical supplies who knows.



MilleD said:


> Really is it? Even the Independent can't decide.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ay-laura-keunssberg-andrew-marr-a7844826.html
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ience-theresa-may-conservatives-a7766311.html


True to a point. Brexiters often accuse the BBC of bias against them and vice verse.

Now, I'm no body language expert, but I'm sure I've seen some reporters, (I won't mention names but no prizes for guessing who I'm on about), literally snarling when interviewing Jeremy Corbyn, yet the same ones seem calm and relaxed around Tory politicians!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You make it sound as if we live in a communist state/regime.


Funny you should say that. Many compare May's ending of FOM for her "subjects" akin to Communist Russia and a modern day variant of the Berlin Wall being erected at Dover etc.

People could argue Corbyn's pro Brexit stance would amount to the same thing seeing many already believe he's a communist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Compare that to the BBC News yesterday. Fiona Bruce was grinning like a Cheshire cat in promoting, sorry reporting on May's speech. This newsreader persona is usually restricted to reporting on the royal family.


I wouldn't say yesterday reporters were promoting May they where probably laughing at her as it was funny watching her robot dance taking the mick out of herself. Kay Burley on Sky News for example:









I cannot comment on BBC News as I didn't see it.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Funny you should say that. Many compare May's ending of FOM for her "subjects" akin to Communist Russia and a modern day variant of the Berlin Wall being erected at Dover etc.
> 
> People could argue Corbyn's pro Brexit stance would amount to the same thing seeing many already believe he's a communist.


So May is far right fascist AND a communist??


----------



## Arnie83

Accusations of Project Fear are having the desired effect.

Nissan chief exec Carlos Ghosn referring to a No Deal Brexit:

"We are preparing for the worst but I do not want to tell you how we are preparing because you will say I am just trying to scare people."​


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> I know someone who works at the BBC, a good friend actually. They once told me that they nearly get equal amounts of people saying they are too left leaning and also get complaints that they are too right leaning.
> 
> Which probably means they are sitting in the middle somewhere :Hilarious
> 
> Can't please everyone though!


That is true. They are often accused of being biased on Twitter by the left and right. I feel a bit sorry for the BBC , they can't win.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> So May is far right fascist AND a communist??


:Jawdrop :Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I think the whole point of the tune and her weird dance was a joke. She was taking the pee out of herself and her lack of dancing prowess


Why would a woman in her position think it would be OK to make a Pr*t out of yourself in front of the watching world.


----------



## Arnie83

So much for Security & Stability then!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Funny you should say that. Many compare May's ending of FOM for her "subjects" akin to Communist Russia and a modern day variant of the Berlin Wall being erected at Dover etc.
> 
> People could argue Corbyn's pro Brexit stance would amount to the same thing seeing many already believe he's a communist.


Be careful .... very, very careful ..... one more step to the left and you're likely to fall into the Kremlin, where you wouldn't be able to enjoy the freedom of speech that you do today!

And being KittenKong won't help you either!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So May is far right fascist AND a communist??


Probably more N*******Socialist?



Magyarmum said:


> Be careful .... very, very careful ..... one more step to the left and you're likely to fall into the Kremlin, where you wouldn't be able to enjoy the freedom of speech that you do today!
> 
> And being KittenKong won't help you either!


Give it a few years, I reckon freedom of speech will be curtailed. Seems to be very much heading that way.

I'm certainly not "Left Wing" as you call it. I would be fully behind Corbyn if I was.

My politics are more centre left.
I supported Tony Blair, he certainly wasn't "Far left".

I don't like any form of extremism, which I why dislike what has become of the Tory party with its move to the far right in much the same way many are unhappy with what has become of Labour under Corbyn.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Accusations of Project Fear are having the desired effect.
> 
> Nissan chief exec Carlos Ghosn referring to a No Deal Brexit:
> 
> "We are preparing for the worst but I do not want to tell you how we are preparing because you will say I am just trying to scare people."​


I'm not sure if it is accusations of project fear, or actual project fear. The exaggerations and downright unbelievable that's out there at the moment silences the moderate. I doubt the Nissan chief will end up on bread and water and living in a cardboard box. The worst for him and Nissan could easily be the best for someone else.

On the one hand we're being told that the wealthy and corporations are ecstatic about Brexit, especially a no deal brexit where they'll have a free for all, but on the other hand it's the worst thing that could happen to them. Then we're told that the rich getting richer doesn't help the poor, but we're told if the rich don't get richer there'll be no money for conservation and the poor.

There is no such thing as freedom of speech, it's not the far right that have curtailed it. However that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are some thoughts people should keep to themselves.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Probably more N*******Socialist?
> 
> Give it a few years, I reckon freedom of speech will be curtailed. Seems to be very much heading that way.
> 
> I'm certainly not "Left Wing" as you call it. I would be fully behind Corbyn if I was.
> 
> My politics are more centre left.
> I supported Tony Blair, he certainly wasn't "Far left".
> 
> I don't like any form of extremism, which I why dislike what has become of the Tory party with its move to the far right in much the same way many are unhappy with what has become of Labour under Corbyn.


And we get accused of Project Fear because we voted leave.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> So much for Security & Stability then!


Maybe someone should buy her a dictionary, so she can look up what they mean.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> I wonder what Angela Leadson strategy would have been if sh e had been voted leader.


I doubt they would be very much different to May`s.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> There is no such thing as freedom of speech, it's not the far right that have curtailed it. However that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are some thoughts people should keep to themselves.


That's true. At one time you could be fined for having a Radio Caroline car sticker. A person ended up in prison over that as he refused to pay the fine in the late '70s.

Back to the present day, it's ironic how extremists on the left and right bleat on about civil liberties yet get up in arms at criticism of their leaders! It of course happens in religion too.

Many on the far right believe they are being censored if not allowed to speak against different racial and religious backgrounds, nor allowed to use the derogatory terms still deemed acceptable in the '70s.
Brexit seems to have given some free license to speak this way again, just like the good old days.

Freedom to express opinions is one thing, promotion of hatred towards others is another matter.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Then we're told that the rich getting richer doesn't help the poor, but we're told if the rich don't get richer there'll be no money for conservation and the poor.


The rich getting richer doesn't help if they don't pay some of it back in tax. The hard Brexiteers are all about further tax breaks - for the rich. Means they get to benefit both ways round. Sod all point attracting corporations if we're going to make it even easier for them to avoid paying tax.


----------



## Arnie83

This is a long read, but I found it very interesting.

https://news.sky.com/story/long-rea...ould-change-a-landscape-and-a-nation-11261036

Wales voted to Leave, no doubt for their own very good reasons, but I wonder if what is described here is quite what they had in mind when they did so.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I wouldn't say yesterday reporters were promoting May they where probably laughing at her as it was funny watching her robot dance taking the mick out of herself. Kay Burley on Sky News for example:
> View attachment 370728
> 
> 
> I cannot comment on BBC News as I didn't see it.


I never thought I'd say this but Sky News which is a Murdoch owned enterprise and ITN have shown more impartiality when compared to the BBC in recent times.

I laughed out loud when I saw Kay Burley covering her face!

On the other had, Fiona Bruce on the BBC grinned like a Cheshire cat, usually reserved for reporting on "happy royal events", as if May was wonderful.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May has revealed Plan B. She will be seeking an all-UK Customs Union with the EU in the next 14 days of intense negotiations. The Republic of Ireland has said they would agree to this.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> That's true. At one time you could be fined for having a Radio Caroline car sticker. A person ended up in prison over that as he refused to pay the fine in the late '70s.
> 
> Back to the present day, it's ironic how extremists on the left and right bleat on about civil liberties yet get up in arms at criticism of their leaders! It of course happens in religion too.
> 
> Many on the far right believe they are being censored if not allowed to speak against different racial and religious backgrounds, nor allowed to use the derogatory terms still deemed acceptable in the '70s.
> Brexit seems to have given some free license to speak this way again, just like the good old days.
> 
> Freedom to express opinions is one thing, promotion of hatred towards others is another matter.


Hang on, are you saying you do or don't want free speech curtailed? You're contradicting yourself.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May has revealed Plan B. She will be seeking an all-UK Customs Union with the EU in the next 14 days of intense negotiations. The Republic of Ireland has said they would agree to this.


That'll please the Brexit element in the Tory party no end!

I wonder if she's daring one of them to challenge her leadership?



MilleD said:


> Hang on, are you saying you do or don't want free speech curtailed? You're contradicting yourself.


No, I do not want free speech curtailed.
Then I don't like the promotion of hatred towards people being of different colour etc. regarded as free speech either.

Then again, many dramas from the '60s and '70s did use such terms that were deemed acceptable then.

I wouldn't argue DVDs of the likes of, "Love Thy Neighbour" should be banned but perhaps should contain a warning that dated terms were used that might offend some people.


----------



## KittenKong

Well Theresa May's honeymoon period looks to have been short lived - yet again according to the Independent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-eu-summit-chequers-conference-a8567816.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well Theresa May's honeymoon period looks to have been short lived - yet again according to the Independent.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-eu-summit-chequers-conference-a8567816.html
> View attachment 370750


It's the ERG, though, and though they might have 80 members prepared to vote against Chequers, they forget that there are an awful lot more Tory MPs who would vote against the ERG's favoured No Deal. And if the Labour party vote against both, that only leaves a GE or a new referendum. It's a dangerous game for the extremists to be playing.


----------



## Magyarmum

Two hours ago from Bloomberg

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/video/u-k-s-boles-sees-theresa-may-moving-beyond-chequers-plan~1505687

and

http://dev2.cityam.com/264509/heres...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181003_Fiv


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> I think it would. At the time he was convinced we couldn't get by without Polish plumbers and by the time of the referendum many were hell bent on stopping immigration from Eastern Europe.


We know EU immigrants are a benefit to our economy, but we were never told the benefits.
_'Migrants from the EU contribute £2,300 more to the exchequer each year than the average adult, and over their lifetimes pay in £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefi_t.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...xploitation-modern-slavery-flex-a8542806.html

And many people are unaware thanks to all the false information banded about for years, that it's EU law that FoM migrants are not allowed to strain the services of their host nation. They have 3 months of guaranteed stay, after which they need a job/ means to support themselves.

I love this Femi 'gotcha'! lol


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> http://dev2.cityam.com/264509/heres...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181003_Fiv


May: "A Brexit that might make Britain stronger fifty years from now is no good to you if it makes your life harder today."

She's going to call it off then!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Global warming will end our food supplies before anything


Wow, so you no longer a denier then? Wonders will never cease.


----------



## Elles

50 millionaires and their families move into our street. The economy might improve, but where would they live? What about schools, hospitals, roads, a GP surgery where we already wait weeks for an appointment. Money isn’t everything.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I don't like any form of extremism,





KittenKong said:


> Freedom to express opinions is one thing, promotion of hatred towards others is another matter.


Your kidding right? HAhaha


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> 50 millionaires and their families move into our street. The economy might improve, but where would they live? What about schools, hospitals, roads, a GP surgery where we already wait weeks for an appointment. Money isn't everything.


Blimey you must live on a posh street!


----------



## Elles

So long as people want plentiful, but cheap food, workers in agriculture will continue to be exploited. Our policies on food and agriculture are in many ways responsible for cheap, nasty, processed food, the obesity crisis and the poor health resulting from it. People are proud of how they can knock up cheap, nutritious meals, totally forgetting the underpaid, hard working folk who did back breaking work to bring it to them.

Lol @Arnie83 You know what I mean.  When people talk about 'immigrants' they aren't talking about multi millionaires, but if there are too many people for an infrastructure, it doesn't matter whether they have money or not, what they contribute, or where they come from and that is a problem in Britain atm. We want foreign nurses and doctors apparently, as our own young people would rather be YouTube celebrities than nurses, but we need to provide the services and structure to support them and their families in that case.

Going on about how much people contribute to an economy isnt good enough.

All the whining I've seen from bosses on tv is about losing the worst paid staff working in the worst environments, or temp staff on short term contracts and how their business can't survive without poorly paid Eu staff. Good imo. Tough ti***ies as one of my friends used to say. If you can't run a business without poorly paid staff in modern U.K., your business isn't viable.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I lived through all but one day of WW2 having been born at home instead of in hospital as arranged because all beds were reserved for possible casualties from bombings. I was lucky because my father was a fireman and used to come home every few weeks unlike my uncle, who being in the army used to be away for months at a time. Even though I was not much more than a baby and my parents shielded me from what was happening,I nevertheless sensed something terrible was happening. I still remember the feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach that I'd never see the two people I loved again each time I kissed them goodbye! Thunder caused me acute anxiety because I was convinced we were being bombed.
> 
> My father and grandfather begged my mother to take me to live with my uncles in the US because my mother was half Jewish by birth and they were terrified about what would happen to us if ever Hitler invaded the UK. She refused to go. It was only when I was about 7 years old and saw photos of the liberation of Bergen Belsen I fully realised what my fate might have been and those images still live with me to the present day.
> 
> I could tell you so much more about what it was like to grow up during the war, like the meagre food rations, not knowing what sweets, chocolate, cakes or biscuits tasted like or wearing "cut me down" clothes because there wasn't the money or coupons to buy new! All I'll say is that that the war coloured the rest of my life and I thank God that I was and am British because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about!
> 
> Quite frankly to speak of TM in the same breathe as Hitler and to predict that the UK will become another Germany in the 1930's is highly insulting not only to the PM but to the British people. But what can one expect from people whose posts consistently verge on the hysterical in their fanatic fervour to convert others to their narrow point of view.
> 
> These are the one's we should all be afraid of!


The far right is on the rise across Europe. Oban, Trump, brexit, Italy, Le Penn, Wilders - right wing populism is spreading across the globe - we should be afraid.


----------



## Elles

Veganism and environmentalism is on the rise too.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Veganism and environmentalism is on the rise too.


What do you mean by environmentalism is on the rise Elles?


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> The far right is on the rise across Europe. Oban, Trump, brexit, Italy, Le Penn, Wilders - right wing populism is spreading across the globe - we should be afraid.


Your reply has nothing to do with my post which was purely to explain what it was like to be a child during a war.

I'm well aware thank you that the far right is at the moment on the rise,

A small but important point it's ORban .....................and as for Brexit being right wing .... well you're entitled to you're point of view but it's not mine!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Your reply has nothing to do with my post which was purely to explain what it was like to be a child during a war.
> 
> I'm well aware thank you that the far right is at the moment on the rise,
> 
> A small but important point it's ORban .....................and as for Brexit being right wing .... well you're entitled to you're point of view but it's not mine!


You agree the ORban government is a right wing authoritarian regime? One our government supports? This I fine extremely concerning. The tory right, the right wing brexitremists stoke up nationalism & jingoism to garner support brexit, you know the stuff - 'make britain great again' .

I assume as you have a Varoufakis quote you respect and admire his integrity as I do? Maybe you'll be interested to hear his concerns & how we need to respond by forging alliances across the left.

https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2018...-the-ground-for-them-yanis-varoufakis-bernie/

*YANIS VAROUFAKIS: Our new international movement will fight rising nationalism, its underlying fascist moment, and the pseudo-liberal establishment whose policies gave rise to it (Click here for The Guardian)*
*Our era will be remembered for the triumphant march of a globally unifying rightwing - a Nationalist International - that sprang out of the cesspool of financialised capitalism. Whether it will also be remembered for a successful humanist challenge to this menace depends on the willingness of progressives in the United States, the European Union, the United Kingdom as well as countries like Mexico, India and South Africa, to forge a coherent Progressive International.*
Our task is not unprecedented. Fascists did not come to power in the mid-war period by promising violence, war or concentration camps. They came to power by addressing good people who, following a severe capitalist crisis, had been treated for too long like livestock that had lost its market value. Instead of treating them like "deplorables", fascists looked at them in the eye and promised to restore their pride, offered their friendship, gave them a sense that they belonged to a larger ideal, allowed them to think of themselves as something more than sovereign consumers.

That injection of self-esteem was accompanied by warnings against the lurking "alien" who threatened their revived hope. The politics of "us versus them" took over, bleached of social class characteristics and defined solely in terms of identities. The fear of losing status turned into tolerance of human rights abuses first against the suspect "others" and then against any and all dissent. Soon, as the establishment's control over politics waned under the weight of the economic crisis it had caused, the progressives ended up marginalised or in prison. By then it was all over.Is this not how Donald Trump first conquered the White House and is now winning the discursive war against a Democratic party establishment? Is this not reminiscent of the Conservative Brexiteers' sudden appreciation of a National Health Service they had starved of funds for decades, or the energetic embracing of democracy that Thatcherism had subordinated to the logic of market forces? Are these not the ways of the hard right governments in Austria, Hungary and Poland, of Greece's Golden Dawn Nazis and, most poignantly, of Matteo Salvini, the strongman steering the new Italian government? Everywhere we look today we see manifestations of the resurgence of an ambitious Nationalist International, the likes of which we have not seen since the 1930s. As for the establishment, they are behaving as if with a penchant to repeat the Weimar Republic's every mistake.

But enough of the diagnosis. The pertinent question now is: what must we do? A tactical alliance with the globalist establishment is out of the question. Tony Blair, Hilary Clinton, the social democratic establishment in continental Europe are too compromised by their monetary links to a degenerating financialised capitalism and its accompanying ideology. For decades they relied on free market populism: the false promise that everyone can become better off as long as we submit to commodification. They'd like us to believe in a never-ending escalator that will take us to the heights of consumer satisfaction, but it doesn't exist.

Our generation's 1929, which occurred in 2008, shattered this illusion. The establishment continued as if it were possible to mend things via a combination of austerity for the many, socialism for the very few and authoritarianism all around. All the while, the Nationalist International has been riding to victory, fueled by growing discontent. To counter this power, progressives must specify very precisely the causes and nature of the people's unrest and unhappiness: namely, the global oligarchy's intense class war against the burgeoning precariat, against what is left of the western proletariat and, generally, against weaker citizens.

Next, we need to demonstrate that the only way the many can regain control of our lives, our communities, our cities and our countries is by coordinating our struggles along the axis of an Internationalist New Deal. While globalised financial capital can no longer be allowed to tear our societies into shreds, we must explain that no country is an island. Just like climate change demands of us both local and international action, so too does the fight against poverty, private debt and rogue bankers. To illustrate that tariffs are not the best way of protecting our workers, since they mostly enrich local oligarchies, we must campaign for trade agreements that commit governments of poorer countries to legislating minimum living wages for their workers and guaranteed jobs locally. That way communities can be revived in richer and poorer countries at once.

Even more ambitiously, our Progressive International must propose an International Monetary Clearing Union, of the type John Maynard Keynes suggested during the Bretton Woods conference in 1944, including well-designed restrictions on capital movements. By rebalancing wages, trade and finance at a global scale, both involuntary migration and involuntary unemployment will recede, thus ending the moral panic over the human right to move freely about the world.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The far right is on the rise across Europe. Oban, *Trump*, brexit, Italy, Le Penn, Wilders - right wing populism is spreading across the globe - we should be afraid.


 Trump is in America not Europe.

Affraid if what??

Before you launch at me when I put the next part of my question up, no I am not right wing, left wing, upside down wing, centralist or whatever else you want to come up with.

Have you ever thought the far right is on the rise because the extreme left or centralist way of thinking isn't working?

As far as Brexit being right wing I think you are way off the mark. You are entitled to your own opinion though.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Elles said:


> All the whining I've seen from bosses on tv is about losing the worst paid staff working in the worst environments, or temp staff on short term contracts and how their business can't survive without poorly paid Eu staff. Good imo. Tough ti***ies as one of my friends used to say. If you can't run a business without poorly paid staff in modern U.K., your business isn't viable.


Doesn`t the minimum wage apply to EU workers then? I thought it did? Now admittingly the minimum age is not a great, currently set at £7 something per hour for over 25s but it is set by the UK government and plenty of firms pay it to their workers regardless if they from the EU or are born and bred British. So do you think the Government should be increasing the MW?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Facts (assumptions) and theories on Brexit must be in short supply today. :Smuggrin


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Trump is in America not Europe.
> 
> Affraid if what??
> 
> Before you launch at me when I put the next part of my question up, no I am not right wing, left wing, upside down wing, centralist or whatever else you want to come up with.
> 
> Have you ever thought the far right is on the rise because the extreme left or centralist way of thinking isn't working?
> 
> As far as Brexit being right wing I think you are way off the mark. You are entitled to your own opinion though.


 Trump is the result of right wing populism over there. If you werent influenced by right wing populism, why did you keep posting things on other brexit related threads about 'taking our country back'? Making britain great again? Of course there was 'lexit' vote too. I realise that many of those on the left who voted leave saw the EU as a vehicle for neoliberalism (which it is!)

I'm afraid of the rise of the far right, I said as much *before* the referendum, its one of the reasons I voted remain. (please read the whole article in my previous post)


----------



## noushka05

*Femi*‏ @Femi_Sorry 4h4 hours ago
Let's walk through this: Why do we trust doctors to cut us open and not accountants, lawyers or each other?
Because we know they spent years studying the topic.
So, for decisions on that topic, it's smarter to trust them.
So who should we trust with the future of the NHS?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Trump is the result of right wing populism over there. If you werent influenced by right wing populism, why did you keep posting things on other brexit related threads about 'taking our country back'? Making britain great again? Of course there was 'lexit' vote too. I realise that many of those on the left who voted leave saw the EU as a vehicle for neoliberalism (which it is!)
> 
> I'm afraid of the rise of the far right, I said as much *before* the referendum, its one of the reasons I voted remain. (please read the whole article in my previous post)


Thank you for letting us know the reason why you voted remain. But remaining in the EU won't stop the rise of the far right it's happening in Germany, Italy, France and many other European Countries. The referendum was nothing to do with the rise of the far right and Brexit certainly isn't either. The Far Right and popularism has been on the rise in Europe quietly for a very long time and the UK remaining in the EU wouldn't have stopped it as it was already on the rise. So you cannot fix the blame on people voting leave in the referendum at all to being far right.

Now can we go back to Brexit as today @KittenKong has predicted we will become a communist state and now the name calling has started. Proves that there cannot be many new facts (assumptions) and theories some remainers want to tell us and some remainers have now unleashed petty name calling and unfounded accusations because they have nothing sensible to say.

Must admit it is quite funny though.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for letting us know the reason why you voted remain. But remaining in the EU won't stop the rise of the far right it's happening in Germany, Italy, France and many other European Countries. The referendum was nothing to do with the rise of the far right and Brexit certainly isn't either. The Far Right and popularism has been on the rise in Europe quietly for a very long time and the UK remaining in the EU wouldn't have stopped it as it was already on the rise. So you cannot fix the blame on people voting leave in the referendum at all to being far right.
> 
> Now can we go back to Brexit as today @KittenKong has predicted we will become a communist state and now the name calling has started. Proves that there cannot be many new facts (assumptions) and theories dome remainerd want to tell us and some remainers have now unleashed petty name calling and unfounded accusations because they have nothing sensible to say.


Right wing populism thrives in times of austerity. This is one of the reasons many voted to leave the EU - blaming the EU/Migrants for our problems when all along it was our governments enforced austerity policies. When we leave we are going to get austerity on steroids - & a further lurch to the right. And anyone who believes Mays lies about ending austerity is a deluded fool. We are going to feel the full force of disaster capitalism.


----------



## noushka05

Good work Tom!

*Tom Watson*‏Verified account @tom_watson 2h2 hours ago
*Today I have written to Jeremy Hunt to ask what investigations are taking place into Russian attempts to influence the EU referendum.

It's time we followed the money and the lies and held a Mueller-style inquiry into the subverting of our own democracy.*


----------



## noushka05

_Nissan employs thousands here, tens of thousands more in the supply chain.
Pre brexit vote, Nissan's message was 'Vote remain or we're all goosed'. 
But the electorate, the man in the street, lapped up Farage's bilge about foreigners coming for their livelihoods._


----------



## noushka05

Oh well done Jeremy!


*Tony Connelly*‏Verified account @tconnellyRTE 3h3 hours ago
*BREAKING: Donald Tusk: In respecting our partners we expect the same in return.
Comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is as unwise as insulting... As someone who spent half his life in the Soviet Bloc I know what I'm talking about...*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for letting us know the reason why you voted remain. But remaining in the EU won't stop the rise of the far right it's happening in Germany, Italy, France and many other European Countries. The referendum was nothing to do with the rise of the far right and Brexit certainly isn't either. The Far Right and popularism has been on the rise in Europe quietly for a very long time and the UK remaining in the EU wouldn't have stopped it as it was already on the rise. So you cannot fix the blame on people voting leave in the referendum at all to being far right.
> 
> Now can we go back to Brexit as today @KittenKong has predicted we will become a communist state and now the name calling has started. Proves that there cannot be many new facts (assumptions) and theories dome remainers want to tell us and some remainers have now unleashed petty name calling and unfounded accusations because they have nothing sensible to say.
> 
> Must admit it is quite funny though.


I don't think the 'far right' or even the UKIP sort of 'right' would have voted Remain so however small or large their numbers were they would certainly have had something to do with the referendum. And Farage's pictures of lines of refugees, and Gove's warning that Turkey were about to join the EU were certainly aimed at the right-wing leaning members of the population.

And I don't know if you are implying this to be the case, but assumptions are not facts.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> So May is far right fascist AND a communist??


They are both really close to each other under the umbrella of dictatorship. Whether extra right wing junta whether one party communist state it is still 1984 world.

Poland for example went from Nazi occupation to communist occupation, my family thought communists were more bloodthirsty and corrupt than Nazi.
Plus they murdered their own people, with no proof, no reason. 
Both extremes are the same: deadly.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Are they the young people whose future has been ruined by old people voting Brexit?


You mean the young people who couldn't be arsed to spend 10 minutes of their busy lives to vote for what they (allegedly) believed in? While all the ''geriatric'', ''working class'' and ''uneducated'' thickos managed to stagger in with the help their Zimmer frames to vote?? Then became even arsier when Brexit won? Those young people? Ah yes, I remember!!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Oh well done Jeremy!
> 
> *Tony Connelly*‏Verified account @tconnellyRTE 3h3 hours ago
> *BREAKING: Donald Tusk: In respecting our partners we expect the same in return.
> Comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is as unwise as insulting... As someone who spent half his life in the Soviet Bloc I know what I'm talking about...*


Jeremy Hunt:

"I wasn't saying that the EU is like the Soviet Union. What I was saying is that the EU was set up to _counter_ the Soviet Union ..."

No you weren't Jeremy, you were posturing and trying to sound tough on the EU because it plays well with the Tories who may soon need a new leader.

And incidentally, Jeremy, no it wasn't.


----------



## noushka05

We ignore the rise of right wing populism at our peril.

I'm sure my Grandad who survived the 2nd world war & my 2 Great Grandads who were killed in the 1st would feel the same.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Trump is in America not Europe.


You are right. Trump will be significant in post Brexit Britain though!

I have to admit my dislike of him narrowed just that little bit when he humiliated TM by suggesting BJ would make a good PM! It'll be hilarious if part of his UK rescue plan he imposes BJ as PM!

Seriously though. They'll be a huge price to pay if they're relying on Trump or any other US President to bail the UK out of its self imposed crisis.

Not a nice thought seeing the trouble they've caused in the past.

But that's been the problem for years, from the Thatcher/Regan coalition onwards. They ignored colleagues in the EU in favour of the US and, yes, I'll most certainly include Tony Blair in this.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Jeremy Hunt:
> 
> "I wasn't saying that the EU is like the Soviet Union. What I was saying is that the EU was set up to _counter_ the Soviet Union ..."
> 
> No you weren't Jeremy, you were posturing and trying to sound tough on the EU because it plays well with the Tories who may soon need a new leader.
> 
> And incidentally, Jeremy, no it wasn't.


The duplicitous liar You cant put a *** paper between the tory right and Trump.


----------



## rona

Trump made me feel like punching him in the face yesterday.. Did anyone else see his display? Sickening


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> You are right. Trump will be significant in post Brexit Britain though!
> 
> I have to admit my dislike of him narrowed just that little bit when he humiliated TM by suggesting BJ would make a good PM! It'll be hilarious if part of his UK rescue plan he imposes BJ as PM!
> 
> Seriously though. They'll be a huge price to pay if they're relying on Trump or any other US President to bail the UK out of its self imposed crisis.
> 
> Not a nice thought seeing the trouble they've caused in the past.
> 
> But that's been the problem for years, from the Thatcher/Regan coalition onwards. They ignored colleagues in the EU in favour of the US and, yes, I'll most certainly include Tony Blair in this.


Boris Johnson is our pound shop Donald Trump:Wtf He was a complete embarrassment as Foreign Secretary - can you imagine him as PM? Jeezus, Maybot is bad enough, she hasent only turned herself into a laughing stock, but the whole country!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Boris Johnson is our pound shop Donald Trump:Wtf He was a complete embarrassment as Foreign Secretary - can you imagine him as PM? Jeezus, Maybot is bad enough, she hasent only turned herself into a laughing stock, but *the whole country*!


She certainly hasn't turned _me_ into a laughing stock!

I've been that way for years.


----------



## noushka05

:Smuggrin


*Alastair Deeply Unhelpful Campbell*‏Verified account @campbellclaret 7h7 hours ago
*Hello ABBA lawyers ... knowing how anti-Brexit my favourite Swedish musicians are, and how you have reacted before when politicians have abused your music, 
I wonder if @theresa_may and her Party secured your permission? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11403230 … Ps @peoplesvote_uk*

Grew up listening to ABBA, I always loved them but I'd love them to the moon & back if they sued this crappy government


----------



## noushka05

Never Trust A Tory....
_

478 days apart. But the same headline. You can call this many things but journalism it is most definitely not.

















_


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> You mean the young people who couldn't be arsed to spend 10 minutes of their busy lives to vote for what they (allegedly) believed in? While all the ''geriatric'', ''working class'' and ''uneducated'' thickos managed to stagger in with the help their Zimmer frames to vote?? Then became even arsier when Brexit won? Those young people? Ah yes, I remember!!


I feel sorry for older people who did vote to Remain , they get crap because people assume they voted Leave


----------



## Magyarmum

*


noushka05 said:



You agree the ORban government is a right wing authoritarian regime?

Click to expand...

*


noushka05 said:


> One our government supports? This I fine extremely concerning. The tory right, the right wing brexitremists stoke up nationalism & jingoism to garner support brexit, you know the stuff - 'make britain great again' .
> 
> I assume as you have a Varoufakis quote you respect and admire his integrity as I do? Maybe you'll be interested to hear his concerns & how we need to respond by forging alliances across the left.
> 
> https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2018...-the-ground-for-them-yanis-varoufakis-bernie/
> 
> *YANIS VAROUFAKIS: Our new international movement will fight rising nationalism, its underlying fascist moment, and the pseudo-liberal establishment whose policies gave rise to it (Click here for The Guardian)*
> *Our era will be remembered for the triumphant march of a globally unifying rightwing - a Nationalist International - that sprang out of the cesspool of financialised capitalism. Whether it will also be remembered for a successful humanist challenge to this menace depends on the willingness of progressives in the United States, the European Union, the United Kingdom as well as countries like Mexico, India and South Africa, to forge a coherent Progressive International.*
> Our task is not unprecedented. Fascists did not come to power in the mid-war period by promising violence, war or concentration camps. They came to power by addressing good people who, following a severe capitalist crisis, had been treated for too long like livestock that had lost its market value. Instead of treating them like "deplorables", fascists looked at them in the eye and promised to restore their pride, offered their friendship, gave them a sense that they belonged to a larger ideal, allowed them to think of themselves as something more than sovereign consumers.
> 
> That injection of self-esteem was accompanied by warnings against the lurking "alien" who threatened their revived hope. The politics of "us versus them" took over, bleached of social class characteristics and defined solely in terms of identities. The fear of losing status turned into tolerance of human rights abuses first against the suspect "others" and then against any and all dissent. Soon, as the establishment's control over politics waned under the weight of the economic crisis it had caused, the progressives ended up marginalised or in prison. By then it was all over.Is this not how Donald Trump first conquered the White House and is now winning the discursive war against a Democratic party establishment? Is this not reminiscent of the Conservative Brexiteers' sudden appreciation of a National Health Service they had starved of funds for decades, or the energetic embracing of democracy that Thatcherism had subordinated to the logic of market forces? Are these not the ways of the hard right governments in Austria, Hungary and Poland, of Greece's Golden Dawn Nazis and, most poignantly, of Matteo Salvini, the strongman steering the new Italian government? Everywhere we look today we see manifestations of the resurgence of an ambitious Nationalist International, the likes of which we have not seen since the 1930s. As for the establishment, they are behaving as if with a penchant to repeat the Weimar Republic's every mistake.
> 
> But enough of the diagnosis. The pertinent question now is: what must we do? A tactical alliance with the globalist establishment is out of the question. Tony Blair, Hilary Clinton, the social democratic establishment in continental Europe are too compromised by their monetary links to a degenerating financialised capitalism and its accompanying ideology. For decades they relied on free market populism: the false promise that everyone can become better off as long as we submit to commodification. They'd like us to believe in a never-ending escalator that will take us to the heights of consumer satisfaction, but it doesn't exist.
> 
> Our generation's 1929, which occurred in 2008, shattered this illusion. The establishment continued as if it were possible to mend things via a combination of austerity for the many, socialism for the very few and authoritarianism all around. All the while, the Nationalist International has been riding to victory, fueled by growing discontent. To counter this power, progressives must specify very precisely the causes and nature of the people's unrest and unhappiness: namely, the global oligarchy's intense class war against the burgeoning precariat, against what is left of the western proletariat and, generally, against weaker citizens.
> 
> Next, we need to demonstrate that the only way the many can regain control of our lives, our communities, our cities and our countries is by coordinating our struggles along the axis of an Internationalist New Deal. While globalised financial capital can no longer be allowed to tear our societies into shreds, we must explain that no country is an island. Just like climate change demands of us both local and international action, so too does the fight against poverty, private debt and rogue bankers. To illustrate that tariffs are not the best way of protecting our workers, since they mostly enrich local oligarchies, we must campaign for trade agreements that commit governments of poorer countries to legislating minimum living wages for their workers and guaranteed jobs locally. That way communities can be revived in richer and poorer countries at once.
> 
> Even more ambitiously, our Progressive International must propose an International Monetary Clearing Union, of the type John Maynard Keynes suggested during the Bretton Woods conference in 1944, including well-designed restrictions on capital movements. By rebalancing wages, trade and finance at a global scale, both involuntary migration and involuntary unemployment will recede, thus ending the moral panic over the human right to move freely about the world.


*


noushka05 said:



You agree the ORban government is a right wing authoritarian regime?

Click to expand...

*[

What makes me think you're trying to pick an argument when all I was doing was correcting your spelling?

Could it be because I live in Hungary I wonder? ..... gives a sigh.!!!!!!

And yes I do admire Yanis Varoufarkis (plus I find him incredibly good looking) and agree with much but not all of what he says.

Just because I have one of his quotes as my signature because I found it amusing is no reason to subject me to a diatribe about the right wing.

Believe it or not I am quite literate, and even though I'm well past my sell by date I'm quite capable of thinking and forming opinions without your or anyone else's help.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Trump made me feel like punching him in the face yesterday.. Did anyone else see his display? Sickening


No what did he do ? I cant bear to see him on the telly.



Arnie83 said:


> She certainly hasn't turned _me_ into a laughing stock!
> 
> I've been that way for years.




Actually, you're not a laughing stock , your posts are sensible and your jokes funny and above all your posts readable !.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> No what did he do ? I cant bear to see him on the telly.


He mocked Dr Ford's account of her traumatic experience, to the cheers and applause of his tame audience.

I found it disgusting.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> What do you mean by environmentalism is on the rise Elles?


People are more interested in the environment than ever before. There are huge efforts being made regarding plastics and recycling for example. So it's not all bad.

Although currently Russia seems to be back in the news rather a lot. Ofc the USA, the U.K., Europe and China are whiter than white and wouldn't do anything like the Russians are doing. Their main crime seems to me to being dumb enough to get caught and leave so much evidence Watson could have worked it out without Sherlock. Most odd.

The world is just bonkers generally.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> [
> 
> What makes me think you're trying to pick an argument when all I was doing was correcting your spelling?
> 
> Could it be because I live in Hungary I wonder? ..... gives a sigh.!!!!!!
> 
> And yes I do admire Yanis Varoufarkis (plus I find him incredibly good looking) and agree with much but not all of what he says.
> 
> Just because I have one of his quotes as my signature because I found it amusing is no reason to subject me to a diatribe about the right wing.
> 
> Believe it or not I am quite literate, and even though I'm well past my sell by date I'm quite capable of thinking and forming opinions without your or anyone else's help.


I asked a straightforward question about ORban government obviously because you live there - I wasn't picking an argument with you. I never questioned your literacy either. I personally dont want my country cosying up to dangerous right wing authoritarian regimes. I agree with Varoufakis the left have to unite & confront the rise of right wing populism. Its a threat to peace and democracy. (I think hes very good looking too - on that we can agree! )


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> He mocked Dr Ford's account of her traumatic experience, to the cheers and applause of his tame audience.
> 
> I found it disgusting.


 That is absolutely sickening.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> He mocked Dr Ford's account of her traumatic experience, to the cheers and applause of his tame audience.
> 
> I found it disgusting.


I don't watch him either. He was amusing on celebrity apprentice, but I find him hard to watch as president. On the rare occasion he might even say something I agree with and that would be even worse. His family are very charismatic.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> That is absolutely sickening.


Warning don't watch this if your blood pressure is bad






I pity women in America. Even if it was true this time, not sure cos I haven't taken much notice, what the hell is going to happen to those poor women that are raped


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> People are more interested in the environment than ever before. There are huge efforts being made regarding plastics and recycling for example. So it's not all bad.
> 
> Although currently Russia seems to be back in the news rather a lot. Ofc the USA, the U.K., Europe and China are whiter than white and wouldn't do anything like the Russians are doing. Their main crime seems to me to being dumb enough to get caught and leave so much evidence Watson could have worked it out without Sherlock. Most odd.
> 
> The world is just bonkers generally.


Its not going to save the living planet though. To do that, we need strong leadership if we're to avert ecological collapse. 
.

Hostile forces working to subvert our democracy. For the future of our democracy we need a Mueller style investigation! 
_
the Atlantic Council - funded by the governments of 28 countries and providing a solid round-up of the case against @Arron_banks. Yet the British govt is refusing to investigate. Why_?

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/Democracy_in_the_Crosshairs_.pdf


----------



## Elles

Our grandparents were probably right to be suspicious of the EEC. After all the Eu is a major part of all this. The world isn’t ready to be free, there’s too much inequality.

Has anyone been watching the programme where archaeology is unearthing truths about the dark ages? Seems they were further ahead than we were over a united Europe and trade.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> [What makes me think you're trying to pick an argument when* all I was doing was correcting your spelling?*
> .


May I ask why you felt the need to do that? it would upset me if someone did that to me.

Not everyone is a brilliant speller.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I feel sorry for older people who did vote to Remain , they get crap because people assume they voted Leave


Haha!! Yes, you couldn't make it up, could you!!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Our grandparents were probably right to be suspicious of the EEC. After all the Eu is a major part of all this. The world isn't ready to be free, there's too much inequality.
> 
> Has anyone been watching the programme where archaeology is unearthing truths about the dark ages? Seems they were further ahead than we were over a united Europe and trade.


Speak for your own grandparents lol The EEC secured liberty and prosperity and peace for western Europe.


----------



## Elles

Your grandparents accepted it without question?

And I think that’s giving it a bit too much credit.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> May I ask why you felt the need to do that? it would upset me if someone did that to me.
> 
> Not everyone is a brilliant speller.


My grammar is terrible. As my dear Nan would put it - I'm not a good scholar:Bag


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Your grandparents accepted it without question?
> 
> And I think that's giving it a bit too much credit.


Did I say that?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Did I say that?


Yes, you said your grandparents weren't suspicious of it.

I'd say actually we agree on pretty much everything except how to get there and who is/should be responsible for it. Our visions of utopia are probably very similar.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> May I ask why you felt the need to do that? it would upset me if someone did that to me.
> 
> Not everyone is a brilliant speller.


I agree with you HP in that not everyone is a brilliant speller but this isn't a word it's a* person's name.*

Not only that it's someone who is the Prime Minister of a EU country.

If I wrote John-Claude Junker instead of Jean-Claude Juncker I'm quite certain that someone would soon correct me.

It really grates the way so many US politicians and media call Macron,..... Macrone!


----------



## Elles




----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> I agree with you HP in that not everyone is a brilliant speller but this isn't a word it's a* person's name.*
> 
> Not only that it's someone who is the Prime Minister of a EU country.
> 
> If I wrote John-Claude Junker instead of Jean-Claude Juncker I'm quite certain that someone would soon correct me.
> 
> It really grates the way so many US politicians and media call Macron,..... Macrone!


Well I wouldn't, I'd take it as just one of those mistakes we make.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I asked a straightforward question about ORban government obviously because you live there - I wasn't picking an argument with you. I never questioned your literacy either. I personally dont want my country cosying up to dangerous right wing authoritarian regimes. I agree with Varoufakis the left have to unite & confront the rise of right wing populism. Its a threat to peace and democracy. (I think hes very good looking too - on that we can agree! )


But you didn't!

This is what you said and I quote

"You agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime?" which takes it for granted that I agree with you and implies you really have no need to ask the question .... The way it comes over is that it was trying to put words in my mouth which I now accept wasn't your intention

Had you said "DO you agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime"? then that gives me the choice of either agreeing or disagreeing.

Perhaps you think I'm being picky but having lived in several countries where English is a second language I know how important it is not only to speak grammatically correct English but to convey what you have to say to the other person so there's no misunderstanding.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> May I ask why you felt the need to do that? it would upset me if someone did that to me.
> 
> Not everyone is a brilliant speller.


How many times did you read that before clicking 'Post Reply' ?


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Well I wouldn't, I'd take it as just one of those mistakes we make.


Each to their own.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Had you said "DO you agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime"? then that gives me the choice of either agreeing or disagreeing.
> 
> Perhaps you think I'm being picky but having lived in several countries where English is a second language* I know how important it is not only to speak grammatically correct English but to convey what you have to say to the other person so there's no misunderstanding*.


Oh I wish I could manage that.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> How many times did you read that before clicking 'Post Reply' ?


why what have I done.?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yes, you said your grandparents weren't suspicious of it.
> 
> I'd say actually we agree on pretty much everything except how to get there and who is/should be responsible for it. Our visions of utopia are probably very similar.


No I didn't say that at all Elles 

I'm not sure about that.  Though we do seem to have shared values on livestock farming:Chicken



Magyarmum said:


> I agree with you HP in that not everyone is a brilliant speller but this isn't a word it's a* person's name.*
> 
> Not only that it's someone who is the Prime Minister of a EU country.
> 
> If I wrote John-Claude Junker instead of Jean-Claude Juncker I'm quite certain that someone would soon correct me.
> 
> It really grates the way so many US politicians and media call Macron,..... Macrone!


I've never corrected anyone for spelling anything wrong.



Magyarmum said:


> But you didn't!
> 
> This is what you said and I quote
> 
> "You agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime?" which takes it for granted that I agree with you and implies you really have no need to ask the question .... The way it comes over is that it was trying to put words in my mouth which I now accept wasn't your intention
> 
> Had you said "DO you agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime"? then that gives me the choice of either agreeing or disagreeing.
> 
> Perhaps you think I'm being picky but having lived in several countries where English is a second language I know how important it is not only to speak grammatically correct English but to convey what you have to say to the other person so there's no misunderstanding.


I accept your point and criticism on this matter. I can see now I how I could have worded it more clearly, so no I don't think you're being picky here. What is your opinion on Orbans government then @Magyarmum ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Boris Johnson is our pound shop Donald Trump:Wtf He was a complete embarrassment as Foreign Secretary - can you imagine him as PM? Jeezus, Maybot is bad enough, she hasent only turned herself into a laughing stock, but the whole country!


She did not really, tried the impossible like to have Brexit but to preserve some sort of truce with the City and some sort of safety net and obviously failed as anyone would trying to find any solution to what everyone on Leave side wants considering that half of the nation does not want it at all.

This buffoon BoJo will do better or this Loathsome woman?
Joke.

Blame yourself good people, there is no such a thing as a good Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I feel sorry for older people who did vote to Remain , they get crap because people assume they voted Leave


They make t-shirts for just the job!. I might invest in one of these


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> She did not really, tried the impossible like to have Brexit but to preserve some sort of truce with the City and some sort of safety net and obviously failed as anyone would trying to find any solution to what everyone on Leave side wants considering that half of the nation does not want it at all.
> 
> This buffoon BoJo will do better or this Loathsome woman?
> Joke.
> 
> Blame yourself good people, there is no such a thing as a good Brexit.


Johnson was a disaster as Foreign Secretary, Loathsome was an absolute catastrophe as Environment secretary. Both are selfeserving and corrupt to the core. Putting aside their calculated cruelty towards vulnerable citizens, how could anyone calling themselves an animal lover support either of them?


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Johnson was a disaster as Foreign Secretary, Loathsome was an absolute catastrophe as Environment secretary. Both are selfeserving and corrupt to the core. Putting aside their calculated cruelty towards vulnerable citizens, how could anyone calling themselves an animal lover support either of them?


Exactly. How anyone with an ounce of sense? It is like choosing Trump or Sara Palin!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for letting us know the reason why you voted remain. But remaining in the EU won't stop the rise of the far right it's happening in Germany, Italy, France and many other European Countries. The referendum was nothing to do with the rise of the far right and Brexit certainly isn't either. The Far Right and popularism has been on the rise in Europe quietly for a very long time and the UK remaining in the EU wouldn't have stopped it as it was already on the rise. So you cannot fix the blame on people voting leave in the referendum at all to being far right.
> 
> Now can we go back to Brexit as today @KittenKong has predicted we will become a communist state and now the name calling has started. Proves that there cannot be many new facts (assumptions) and theories some remainers want to tell us and some remainers have now unleashed petty name calling and unfounded accusations because they have nothing sensible to say.
> 
> Must admit it is quite funny though.


Yes the far right have been rising across Europe. The result of the Brexit vote and the subsequent election of Trump has brought many to the forefront. The Conservative Party has become one of the far right parties in Europe.

It's the Tory equivalent of electing Tony Blair, then Jeremy Corbyn taking over mid term.

How many had actually heard of Jacob Rees-Mogg before the EU referendum? I hadn't. He's now a household name.



stockwellcat. said:


> As far as Brexit being right wing I think you are way off the mark. You are entitled to your own opinion though.


While you are right that Euroscepticism is not restricted to the far right, the referendum campaign was orchestrated by the far right so yes, I agree, it is a far right Brexit.

This is why I can't understand why the likes of Corbyn and others on the left can support it.

Interesting this popped up on FB this morning from a member of the 48%.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> =1431226]@KittenKong[/USER] has predicted we will become a communist state and now the name calling has started. Proves that there cannot be many new facts (assumptions) and theories some remainers want to tell us and some remainers have now unleashed petty name calling and unfounded accusations because they have nothing sensible to say.
> 
> Must admit it is quite funny though.


I didn't say that. What I said was many see the ending of FOM was akin to what Communists did for their citizens to control who left by erecting the Berlin Wall.

If EU NHS workers are repatriated through the crime of 1). Not being "British" and 2). Earning less than £50K per annum which results in a major crisis do you think Theresa will allow UK born and trained, remembering THEY paid for their tuition, to leave the UK to work abroad?

Now, that would be akin to Communism. But in the UK's case it would be fascism.

As Cheeky said words to the effect of liberating Poland from fascism into Communism was out of the frying pan and into the fire.

That's why I support the EU. It's profoundly moderate which is why many on the far right and left despise it so much.

They miss the wars they used to have every couple of decades or so.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I feel sorry for older people who did vote to Remain , they get crap because people assume they voted Leave


That's something that irritates me too actually. Just because figures suggest otherwise it doesn't necessarily mean as an older person they voted leave and vice verse.

From the people I know it's about 50/50. I know a few younger than myself who voted leave, even those in their mid 20s.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> While you are right that Euroscepticism is not restricted to the far right, the referendum campaign was orchestrated by the far right so yes, I agree, it is a far right Brexit.
> 
> This is why I can't understand why the likes of Corbyn and others on the left can support it.


In my ever so humble opinion ...

Bluntly, the far right supported it because it gave them hope of ridding the country of the influence and even presence of non-British people. It's a small step from xenophobia to the search for 'purity' with its worrying connotations.

The capitalist right - if I may call them that - saw the opportunity to free up the economy from annoying restrictions put in place for reasons they dislike, like protecting workers or saving the planet. Their goal is a totally free market economy where entrepreneurs can flourish without restriction. They will talk of trickle down economics to make it sound palatable, even though they know it doesn't ever work out. (See Minford / Rees-Mogg / Hannan)

The far left see the EU single market as a capitalist construct because it aims to create a level playing field across all national boundaries with no unfair advantages and gives too much power to the market. Most significantly, undue support from government / public funds can create a situation where competitive advantage is artificially created, and is therefore frowned upon by the EU (not banned, cos it's more complicated than that). The left consider that the state should get far more involved, with direct control of many industries and assistance to others. Getting out of the EU would allow that to happen.

In a nutshell, the capitalists want to remove all state / EU intervention and most rules, while the anti-capitalists want to increase state intervention and make the rules. The EU, in the view of both, stops them. Hence, Leave.

It needs to be said, of course, that there were an awful lot of people occupying the ground between all the extremes mentioned above who had their own reasons for voting the way they did. But it shows that the Leave camp, no doubt the same as the Remain one, was and is a very broad church.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Our grandparents were probably right to be suspicious of the EEC. After all the Eu is a major part of all this. The world isn't ready to be free, there's too much inequality.


Do you mean your grandparents or grandparents in general?

If you mean the latter you are very wrong. Having lived through the war and post war austerity my grandmother recognised becoming a member of the CM former enemies would work together to prevent that from ever happening again. Though she sadly passed away in 1981 she was right.

I remember how the 1975 referendum upset her. We watched the ITN results with Robert Kee, who famously described Tyne and Wear county as "Tyne and Ware", much to our amusement. She was overjoyed at the unanimous Yes vote.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> May I ask why you felt the need to do that? it would upset me if someone did that to me.
> 
> Not everyone is a brilliant speller.


I understand that. No one is perfect and there's no problems in being corrected if it's done sensitively and without attempting provocation.

A while back I received a provocative comment on another forum due to a silly typo. The response was in effect of, "It's spelt this way you idiot".

Rather than retaliate the way he hoped I would, I think I shocked him by thanking for pointing out the typo and editing the post in question to correct the spelling error!


----------



## KittenKong

Best quote of the week.


----------



## KittenKong

So, it's not just the Jeremy Corbyn wing of the Labour party.....





























https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tory-mep-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> So, it's not just the Jeremy Corbyn wing of the Labour party.....
> View attachment 370862
> View attachment 370863
> View attachment 370864
> View attachment 370865
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tory-mep-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook


I still have hopes that somewhere down the line I will be allowed to be an official, if associate, Citizen of the EU. According to my MP, to whom I wrote on the matter, such freedom is not currently in the thinking of our parochial government.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> 50 millionaires and their families move into our street. The economy might improve, but where would they live? What about schools, hospitals, roads, a GP surgery where we already wait weeks for an appointment. Money isn't everything.


I would've thought, being millionaires they would choose to go private!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I still have hopes that somewhere down the line I will be allowed to be an official, if associate, Citizen of the EU. According to my MP, to whom I wrote on the matter, such freedom is not currently in the thinking of our parochial government.


I think we have a better chance of that by us negotiating with the EU directly than Theresa May unilaterally deciding on our futures whether we like it or not.

One of the significant reasons why I oppose her Chequers plan so much.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> *I think we have a better chance of that by us negotiating with the EU directly *than Theresa May unilaterally deciding on our futures whether we like it or not.
> 
> One of the significant reasons why I oppose her Chequers plan so much.


I think you're right and I might well drop Guy Verhofstadt a line and see what he says.

But I can just imagine the right wing press claiming that the EU are trying to undermine British nationhood if it ever happens.


----------



## KittenKong

http://newsthump.com/2018/10/05/fea...may-and-reprogrammed-her-to-do-stupid-dances/


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 370891
> View attachment 370892
> 
> http://newsthump.com/2018/10/05/fea...may-and-reprogrammed-her-to-do-stupid-dances/


Man you do seem to read some crap.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Man you do seem to read some crap.


Well, it IS a satire site! And it made me giggle rather a lot


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Well, it IS a satire site! And it made me giggle rather a lot


I thought satire was supposed to be clever?


----------



## Arnie83

Reports via John Rentoul on twitter that a Brexit deal is "very close" according to "Brussels sources".

No further details, so I guess we'll wait and see ...


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-UK-eu-northern-ireland-irish-border-backstop

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-s-irrelevant-if-may-can-t-win-over-her-party

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xit-trade-flexibility-to-help-may-secure-deal


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> I thought satire was supposed to be clever?


Depends how close to lampoon you veer  One wonders what Spitting Image would have made of it all!


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Depends how close to lampoon you veer  One wonders what Spitting Image would have made of it all!


God, can you imagine the puppet they would have made of May?!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-UK-eu-northern-ireland-irish-border-backstop
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-s-irrelevant-if-may-can-t-win-over-her-party
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...xit-trade-flexibility-to-help-may-secure-deal


Thanks for that.

It will be interesting to see how much fudge is in there and whether the ERG ideologues are prepared to go with it.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Man you do seem to read some crap.


I've seen more truth in "News Thump" than other press sources recently.

At least they're known as a satirical. The Sun, Mail and Express as examples aren't. They call themselves "News" papers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Reports via John Rentoul on twitter that a Brexit deal is "very close" according to "Brussels sources".
> 
> No further details, so I guess we'll wait and see ...


They are very close to agreeing on the Irish Border I read somewhere earlier and TM is planning to ignore the DUP to get a deal done. The DUP are fuming.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here we go:
*Brexit: Government considers NI-GB regulatory checks*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-45711991

*DUP 'won't accept' Brexit Irish Sea checks*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-45719580

Meanwhile Donald Tusk keeps saying the Canada +++ Deal is still on offer and on the table.
*Donald Tusk urges UK to accept offer of 'Canada +++' Brexit deal which has 'been on the table since the very beginning'*
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...which-has-been-on-the-table-a3953731.html?amp


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Meanwhile Donald Tusk keeps saying the Canada +++ Deal is still on offer and on the table.
> *Donald Tusk urges UK to accept offer of 'Canada +++' Brexit deal which has 'been on the table since the very beginning'*
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-donald-tusk-urges-uk-to-accept-offer-of-canada-brexit-deal-which-has-been-on-the-table-a3953731.html?amp


The devil in the detail here is that Tusk's +++ is not necessarily the same as the +++ that David Davis was talking about back before May came up with Chequers.

Progress, though. They are clearly trying to avoid the No Deal possibility.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The devil in the detail here is that Tusk's +++ is not necessarily the same as the +++ that David Davis was talking about back before May came up with Chequers.
> 
> Progress, though. They are clearly trying to avoid the No Deal possibility.


I read somewhere eariler that Donald Tusks Canada +++ deal includes the freedoms of movement but gives the UK a basic trade deal so the UK can strike trade deals as well. The deal would be similar to the Canada deal where the UK will have access to the single market like Canada has and removing 95% of the red tape on moving goods around.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> They are very close to agreeing on the Irish Border I read somewhere earlier and TM is planning to ignore the DUP and to get a deal done. The DUP are fuming.


Unfortunately for the DUP they were never the danger in the longer term and if TM can pull support for an agreement from elsewhere they are an irrelevance. Don't think it will come as any surprise that I wouldn't be sorry to see Ms Foster brought down a peg or ten


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/04...-brexit-to-give-uk-citizens-reciprocal-rights

http://dev2.cityam.com/264703/unile...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181005_CMU


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> God, can you imagine the puppet they would have made of May?!


I'm trying not to!  Wonder if a parrot would have featured: "_Strong and Stable! Strong and Stable!_"

I bet they'd have had Trump and BoJo as conjoined twins, perhaps by the hair...


----------



## Elles

Czech Republic is part of the Eu. It’s not working. Countries and areas are heading down a very dark route, the Eu isn’t keeping the peace or preventing what happened before. I am absolutely horrified by what I just saw on Channel 4 news.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They are very close to agreeing on the Irish Border I read somewhere earlier and TM is planning to ignore the DUP to get a deal done. The DUP are fuming.


This was always going to be a problem in going into coalition with the DUP in order to keep her job.

Perhaps May's over inflated ego believes she can take them on. I doubt very much she'll succeed in taking on Arlene Foster.

Two volitile personalities getting into conflict is never a good thing. Remember Hughie Green and Jess Yates for example!

Perhaps May will utilise her magic money tree by persuading them to comply?

The DUP could withdraw their support if she presses ahead with this. I don't think she'll risk it to be honest.

Then, back to the drawing board.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Czech Republic is part of the Eu. It's not working. Countries and areas are heading down a very dark route, the Eu isn't keeping the peace or preventing what happened before. I am absolutely horrified by what I just saw on Channel 4 news.


I didn't see it.

Wasn't it 50 years ago when the Russians crushed them as they attempted to make the country a democracy? As with Hungary in the '50s the Russians put an end to that.

I wonder if the event you saw was related to the 50th Anniversary of that horrible event?

The EU has worked in a sense of giving their people freedom. The Soviet Union would never have tolerated that.

Something that should be remembered.


----------



## Elles

No. Is it on catch up, or 4+? It’s today. Political parties are putting up posters, they want Roma to be put in concrete ghettos and one poster says Rat Poison is too good for them. . They expect to win in Most.

One lady in her 80s says that she’s afraid and a young woman could hardly speak she was so upset, as they tried to describe to the reporters what’s going on there.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> The DUP could withdraw their support if she presses ahead with this. I don't think she'll risk it to be honest.


And if it turns out she doesn't need it?



KittenKong said:


> Perhaps May's over inflated ego believes she can take them on. I doubt very much she'll succeed in taking on Arlene Foster.


Much as I am no fan of TM, I'm pretty sure the most over inflated ego belongs to dear Arlene. One is the PM of the UK and the other is the leader of a party with sway over somewhere roughly the size of Yorkshire.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> In my ever so humble opinion ...
> 
> Bluntly, the far right supported it because it gave them hope of ridding the country of the influence and even presence of non-British people. It's a small step from xenophobia to the search for 'purity' with its worrying connotations.
> 
> The capitalist right - if I may call them that - saw the opportunity to free up the economy from annoying restrictions put in place for reasons they dislike, like protecting workers or saving the planet. Their goal is a totally free market economy where entrepreneurs can flourish without restriction. They will talk of trickle down economics to make it sound palatable, even though they know it doesn't ever work out. (See Minford / Rees-Mogg / Hannan)
> 
> The far left see the EU single market as a capitalist construct because it aims to create a level playing field across all national boundaries with no unfair advantages and gives too much power to the market. Most significantly, undue support from government / public funds can create a situation where competitive advantage is artificially created, and is therefore frowned upon by the EU (not banned, cos it's more complicated than that). The left consider that the state should get far more involved, with direct control of many industries and assistance to others. Getting out of the EU would allow that to happen.
> 
> In a nutshell, the capitalists want to remove all state / EU intervention and most rules, while the anti-capitalists want to increase state intervention and make the rules. The EU, in the view of both, stops them. Hence, Leave.
> 
> It needs to be said, of course, that there were an awful lot of people occupying the ground between all the extremes mentioned above who had their own reasons for voting the way they did. But it shows that the Leave camp, no doubt the same as the Remain one, was and is a very broad church.


Well said . Plus extreme Left and Cirbyn hope that people who associate Brexit mostly with Tories will get really disappointed and in next general election turn to Labour conveniently forgetting who whipped his party to push through Article 50. Simply Britain tired of Tory light and mod of the road socialism... maybe they blurred too much?


----------



## Elles

https://www.channel4.com/news/far-right-in-czech-republic-the-politicians-turning-on-roma

There you go. Sickening.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> https://www.channel4.com/news/far-right-in-czech-republic-the-politicians-turning-on-roma
> 
> There you go. Sickening.


 I saw a programme recently and they showed officials using any excuse to take their children away from them .


----------



## kimthecat

On HIGNFY tonight . Josh Widdicome said about Theresa May dancing that she looked like she was moving a fridge. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> https://www.channel4.com/news/far-right-in-czech-republic-the-politicians-turning-on-roma
> 
> There you go. Sickening.


Ah yes, the far right yet again. I don't how that's related to Brexit or how the EU can be blamed for that.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Unfortunately for the DUP they were never the danger in the longer term and if TM can pull support for an agreement from elsewhere they are an irrelevance. Don't think it will come as any surprise that I wouldn't be sorry to see Ms Foster brought down a peg or ten


But the support of the DUP is what keeps TM in her job. She would be weakened without their support and a GE might end up being called.

Where can TM rely on an agreement with others if not the DUP? It'll be more likely to be from the Labour Party than the Lib Dems. The Guardian reports TM is attempting to woo Labour MPs into backing her Chequers plan as a better alternative to a no deal Brexit.

I think TM will do anything to avoid risking a fall out with the DUP. With Arlene Foster she's met her match.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Ah yes, the far right yet again. I don't how that's related to Brexit or how the EU can be blamed for that.


Far right is very much the same, Franco hated Gitanos, you could still see that attitude in some Rajoy followers... 
Xenophobia is a disease... after referendum attacks multiplied...Every country has minorities that can be targeted...
Especially if the minority lives by their own rules and laws... not necessarily the lead of the country...

I lived in Roma camp when camp site was full and another one out of town was really dodgy.
Roma people took mercy on me and my crew and let us stay with them for our safety.

We were lucky , one night the camp site was robbed, not by Roma, but thieves did not dare to go to their camp.
Lived among gitanos in Spain...couldn't complain... but there was some truth in saying they don't hold regular jobs quite often.. but I know lawyersand prosperous businessmen of that origin...


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Ah yes, the far right yet again. I don't how that's related to Brexit or how the EU can be blamed for that.


I didn't say I blame the Eu exactly. Calling these groups 'far right' as though it's political imho is totally wrong. It's racism with a hint of genocide and allowing it in politics gives something credence that should be dead in the water. What it shows is that this era of peace and unity in Europe isn't happening. The Eu gave the Czech Republic billions supposedly to integrate and help these people. It clearly didn't work. Where did this money go? Doesn't look to be to the people who need it most. The Eu also gave money to people smugglers, supposedly to persuade them to become taxi drivers instead. How about giving our money to refugees and the downtrodden minorities, not criminals and racists.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I didn't say I blame the Eu exactly. Calling these groups 'far right' as though it's political imho is totally wrong. It's racism with a hint of genocide and allowing it in politics gives something credence that should be dead in the water. * What it shows is that this era of peace and unity in Europe isn't happening.* The Eu gave the Czech Republic billions supposedly to integrate and help these people. It clearly didn't work. Where did this money go? Doesn't look to be to the people who need it most. The Eu also gave money to people smugglers, supposedly to persuade them to become taxi drivers instead. How about giving our money to refugees and the downtrodden minorities, not criminals and racists.


To be fair I think we have to distinguish between conflicts _between_ countries and those within them.

The EU and its forerunners have made war between European nations less likely; there is no sensible doubt of that.

While they can put some pressure on, as they are in Hungary, it is not their task to intervene physically in troubles inside individual countries. Imagine the uproar if even the idea was so much as mooted.

To climb briefly onto my hobbyhorse; we have a long way to go before innate tribalism in humans is eliminated. UKIP is now pretty much an anti-Islam party; the Roma are hated in the Czech Republic; Catholics and Protestants in NI are not exactly reconciled; the Mail & Express still highlight immigrant crimes and threats; gang violence in London is on the rise; Merkel's 'soft' immigrant policies have seen the AfD surge in the polls; _some_ people voted Leave purely because the single market's law-makers are not British ... BUT, at least there is no prospect of tanks rolling across internal EU borders.


----------



## KittenKong

So, it's not only myself who believes the Tories have relaunched themselves as a far right party.

Some Tories who worked under David Cameron believe that too.









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ban-hungary-mep-europe-populism-a8570531.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

The chance of the UK and the EU agreeing a Brexit deal has grown in the last few days, the head of the European Commission has said.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45768848


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Conservatives have also been in touch with Labour MP's (over the last 3 months) to ensure that any Brexit deal would be voted for in Parliament which could make Corbyn unelectable in any General Election which would spark a leadership challenge in the Labour Party.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The chance of the UK and the EU agreeing a Brexit deal has grown in the last few days, the head of the European Commission has said.
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45768848


Nothing new in that. They've been reporting that for ages. May has to come up with a solution to the Irish border then face her vile equal Arlene to seek her approval.



stockwellcat. said:


> The Conservatives have also been in touch with Labour MP's (over the last 3 months) to ensure that any Brexit deal would be voted for in Parliament which could make Corbyn unelectable in any General Election which would spark a leadership challenge in the Labour Party.


That would be right. Corbyn has enabled May in almost every step of the way so far. They may as well be in coalition as far as Brexit is concerned.

He's let down every Labour supporter. Seems he recognises he'll never be PM. Like May he appears to be putting Brexit ahead of everything else. Sod the people he vouched to represent. Just another over privileged type with no experience of the real world.

Just like how May has fooled the public and many Tories, Corbyn's done the same with Labour.

Seems I was proven right yet again. Fears of stockpiling would make May's personal deal seem good to others in comparison. Will Labour as a party in general fall for that?

If they do, this would confirm the UK is under the umbrella of a one party state with May at the helm for at least another 10 years.

This is a stuff of nightmares.

And people criticised Nick Clegg for going into coalition with a comparative centre right led Tory administration?!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Nothing new in that. They've been reporting that for ages. May has to come up with a solution to the Irish border then face her vile equal Arlene to seek her approval.


Apparrently they are close on agreement on this. TM has already indicated she is going over AF's head to get a deal. The problem is so far AF hasn't been happy with any solution presented. TM is in charge not AF.



> That would be right. Corbyn has enabled May in almost every step of the way so far.


The problem with Labour is this. Corbyn has never been electable as PM. Most MP's in the Labour Party want him gone as leader but Labour Party Members (Public) want him to stay. Remember the last Labour Leadership Challenge? I do. Most Labour MP's voted to get rid of him but because the Labour Members (Nick named Corbynites) voted for him to stay as leader. I don't hear many Labour Members singing "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" anymore.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> So, it's not only myself who believes the Tories have relaunched themselves as a far right party.
> 
> Some Tories who worked under David Cameron believe that too.
> 
> View attachment 370961
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ban-hungary-mep-europe-populism-a8570531.html


Well he'd be like a turkey voting for Christmas now wouldn't he?

He's got to fight to save his fat pension


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Apparrently they are close on agreement on this. TM has already indicated she is going over AF's head to get a deal. The problem is so far AF hasn't been happy with any solution presented. TM is in charge not AF.
> 
> The problem with Labour is this. Corbyn has never been electable as PM. Most MP's in the Labour Party want him gone as leader but Labour Party Members (Public) want him to stay. Remember the last 2 Labour Leadership Challenges? I do. Most Labour MP's voted to get rid of him but because the Labour Members (Nick named Corbynites) voted for him to stay as leader not once but twice he stayed as leader. I don't hear many Labour Members singing "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" anymore.


They won't be. Corbyn will most certainly not survive another leadership challenge, especially if May does call another early election. He'll have used all of his nine lives.

Yes, you're right. TM is leader. Arlene insists on NI being treated the same as any other part of the UK so, technically she should relinquish power and let May take full charge.

But we're talking about two equally volatile personalities here.

May also needs reminding it's thanks to Foster and the DUP that's kept her in a job. For the pair of them to fall out would not be a pretty sight. They can only be one winner.

I don't think May would be stupid enough to risk such a scenario. Then she's done stupid things in the past as risking a snap general election that forced her into such a coalition in the first place.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> That would be right. Corbyn has enabled May in almost every step of the way so far. They may as well be in coalition as far as Brexit is concerned.


So why does she need Arlene?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> They won't be. Corbyn will most certainly not survive another leadership challenge, especially if May does call another early election. He'll have used all of his nine lives.
> 
> Yes, you're right. TM is leader. Arlene insists on NI being treated the same as any other part of the UK so, technically she should relinquish power and let May take full charge.
> 
> But we're talking about two equally volatile personalities here.
> 
> May also needs reminding it's thanks to Foster and the DUP that's kept her in a job. For the pair of them to fall out would not be a pretty sight. They can only be one winner.
> 
> I don't think May would be stupid enough to risk such a scenario. Then she's done stupid things in the past as risking a snap general election that forced her into such a coalition in the first place.


TM doesn't need AF if enough Labour MP's are willing to vote a Brexit Deal through. The Conservatives have been busy making sure enough Labour MP's are willing to do this over the last several months. If there is enough support to push a deal through Parliament then she will go over Fosters head to get a deal done.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> May also needs reminding it's thanks to Foster and the DUP that's kept her in a job.


Ever heard the saying 'a week is a long time in politics'?


----------



## havoc

I'm sure it's pure coincidence but a RN minesweeper just happened to appear in Belfast Lough yesterday  Too far away for OH to see which one but made us giggle at the timing.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> TM doesn't need AF if enough Labour MP's are willing to vote a Brexit Deal through. The Conservatives have been busy making sure enough Labour MP's are willing to do this over the last several months. If there is enough support to push a deal through Parliament then she will go over Fosters head to get a deal done.


It would be an appalling betrayal of traditional Labour voters and supporters if this was to happen.

The Lib Dems still haven't been forgiven for going into coalition with the Cameron administration.


----------



## KittenKong

Is this the real Frank Bough, a TV legend?

Very well said if it is!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Well he'd be like a turkey voting for Christmas now wouldn't he?
> 
> He's got to fight to save his fat pension


Like Farage, his pension will continue after we leave anyway, so clearly that isnt his motive for speaking out 

Try looking at the mountain range of evidence instead. From the language they use, their support of fascist regimes, their 'go home vans'.


----------



## noushka05

Really interesting thread by James Patrick.

Right, I really don't care whether people listen to this Brexit thread. It's just here. This is a sanitised briefing. It is rated as "high level of confidence" and
supported by OSINT, meaning it comes from multiple, reliable sources and is supported by open source information

Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to
them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII.

The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible

Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility

On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaign

The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.

The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself.

The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible

The British government hopes this will create a ripple effect of impact so it can later pursue a "Europe in chaos" narrative of disinformation and exploit the situation. In short hoping to spread the load of no deal impact, particularly into France due to geographical impact

The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include *Orban*

The British are aware that contingency planning in France has not yet reached operational unit level even in the GIGN because the general French presumption is that the British government is genuinely engaged in good faith, which they are not.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://news.sky.com/story/juncker-...chorus-as-he-hopes-for-november-deal-11518056

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/unilevers-u-turn-is-another-blow-to-project-fear/

https://capx.co/brussels-can-show-flexibility-on-the-irish-border-or-risk-no-deal/


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> So why does she need Arlene?


Technically, yes she does. Say Labour "dare" to snub May and vote against her plan. If rebel Tories and the DUP did the same that could put her position in jeopardy if this results in her losing.

Without DUP support May would lead a minority government. One thing she forgets.

She's taking a huge gamble again by expecting Labour Party support while potentially sacrificing her agreement with the DUP that has kept her in power.

Sadly, I suspect Labour will be stupid enough to make themselves profoundly unelectable by succumbing to her plans.

Some argue it's a way of sharing the blame for the upcoming disaster. A clever move if that's true.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Really interesting thread by James Patrick.
> 
> Right, I really don't care whether people listen to this Brexit thread. It's just here. This is a sanitised briefing. It is rated as "high level of confidence" and
> supported by OSINT, meaning it comes from multiple, reliable sources and is supported by open source information
> 
> Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to
> them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII.
> 
> The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible
> 
> Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility
> 
> On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaign
> 
> The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.
> 
> The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself.
> 
> The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible
> 
> The British government hopes this will create a ripple effect of impact so it can later pursue a "Europe in chaos" narrative of disinformation and exploit the situation. In short hoping to spread the load of no deal impact, particularly into France due to geographical impact
> 
> The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include *Orban*
> 
> The British are aware that contingency planning in France has not yet reached operational unit level even in the GIGN because the general French presumption is that the British government is genuinely engaged in good faith, which they are not.


Are you sure that's not the script for a new film he's writing? Where's his proof that any of this is correct?

https://twitter.com/J_amesp


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Juncker: Brexit deal could be reached within weeks*

Jean-Claude Juncker says an agreement between the UK and the European Union could be reached later this month or in November.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/juncker-brexit-deal-could-be-reached-within-weeks-11518837


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> He's got to fight to save his fat pension


Apologies if otherwise, but I'm guessing this refers to what originated as a Telegraph article saying that Mandelson stood to lose his pension if he criticised the EU, and which has since become a much propagated belief.

On reading the *RULES OF PROFESSIONAL ETHICS AT THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION LEVEL* and its references to 'loyalty' it seems that this is another of those well-spun myths about the terrible EU. Someone else who did the same summed it up like this:

"Yes, former EU commissioners can lose their pensions if they break the ethics rules after leaving office. There's no good reason to believe that criticising the EU would count as a breach."​
For further proof, if such a clause applied to MEP's I suspect Farage would be first on the list to have his pension cancelled!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Czech Republic is part of the Eu. It's not working. Countries and areas are heading down a very dark route, the Eu isn't keeping the peace or preventing what happened before. I am absolutely horrified by what I just saw on Channel 4 news.


Dreadful, as is what is happening in Hungary for example - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-meps-personal-thankyou-letter-13299475 How do you feel about the tories support for a far right government the EU wanted to crack down on? This, again, is why we must take responsibility for our politics and vote only for progressive politicians and parties. Or we are complicit.

. The far right - ALL the racists parties and racist figure heads wanted us to leave the EU. Why do you think that is? Why would they want to weaken the EU?

Sadly there has always been racism but fascists and racists have been emboldened by Trump and brexit. The alt right are being normalised by the media, they should not give then a platform.

Farage's pal white supremacist Steve Bannon is the 'mentor' of Rees Mogg, Gove , Johnson. He has met with other right wing extremists across Europe - in the Czech Republic for example. Bannon is starting a new movement in Europe to further fuel the far right in Europe https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-plans-foundation-to-fuel-far-right-in-europe

(You should research Cambridge Analytica. )

Bannon calls Viktor Orban, Hungary's fascist leader, a "hero" and praises the fascist Le Pen family in France. Bannon is a fascist political strategist. We are living in very dangerous times.

*Steve Bannon Is Done Wrecking the American Establishment. Now He Wants to Destroy Europe's*
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/world/europe/horowitz-europe-populism.html


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Are you sure that's not the script for a new film he's writing? Where's his proof that any of this is correct?
> 
> https://twitter.com/J_amesp


I promise to answer your questions, when you answer mine

So.

Do you agree the Orban government is a right wing authoritarian regime?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Dreadful, as is what is happening in Hungary for example - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-meps-personal-thankyou-letter-13299475 How do you feel about the tories support for a far right government the EU wanted to crack down on? This, again, is why we must take responsibility for our politics and vote only for progressive politicians and parties. Or we are complicit.
> 
> . The far right - ALL the racists parties and racist figure heads wanted us to leave the EU. Why do you think that is? Why would they want to weaken the EU?
> 
> Sadly there has always been racism but fascists and racists have been emboldened by Trump and brexit. The alt right are being normalised by the media, they should not give then a platform.
> 
> Farage's pal white supremacist Steve Bannon is the 'mentor' of Rees Mogg, Gove , Johnson. He has met with other right wing extremists across Europe - in the Czech Republic for example. Bannon is starting a new movement in Europe to further fuel the far right in Europe https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-plans-foundation-to-fuel-far-right-in-europe
> 
> (You should research Cambridge Analytica. )
> 
> Bannon calls Viktor Orban, Hungary's fascist leader, a "hero" and praises the fascist Le Pen family in France. Bannon is a fascist political strategist. We are living in very dangerous times.
> 
> *Steve Bannon Is Done Wrecking the American Establishment. Now He Wants to Destroy Europe's*
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/world/europe/horowitz-europe-populism.html


And or course in leaving the EU this government wouldn't be subjected to a potential crackdown as well as not being eligible for tax avoidance laws etc.

Then they can build their own fascist empire a bit like someone I could mention once did...


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> And or course in leaving the EU this government wouldn't be subjected to a potential crackdown as well as not being eligible for tax avoidance laws etc.
> 
> Then they can build their own fascist empire a bit like someone I could mention once did...


A stretch, methinks.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Then they can build their own fascist empire


Here we go again


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> A stretch, methinks.


Perhaps it is, but the problem with British arrogance is they believe they should rule the world. Where do you think the term, "Global Britain" comes from?

They can't stomach the thought of sharing with other leading nations, "traditional enemies" like France and Germany.

I put it to some Brexiters that if Brussels was in London and was led by the British would they still support Brexit? I wasn't surprised to hear a unanimous no to that!

So, the UK forming alliances with other far-right Eurosceptic parties. It "leads the way" by leaving the EU that might encourage others to do the same and perhaps join them in another form of a united Europe led by the British. The EU as it stands then collapses.

Some of the smaller countries might fall for this, but would France and Germany in a post EU far right or left environment?

We know what that led to in the past......


----------



## noushka05

I can't post the video directly onto my post , but its well worth a watch.

_
From Inside the American Embassy; Channel 4. Filmed roughly Nov '17-Jan '18 US Embassy staff discussing Brexit. 
They know Brexit is a disaster and that the British Govt are not telling the public that 52% 
voted for something that's likely to be "very very bad"_.
#BrexitReality


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1011736467310301184
...........................................


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps it is, but the problem with British arrogance is they believe they should rule the world. Where do you think the term, "Global Britain" comes from?
> 
> They can't stomach the thought of sharing with other leading nations, "traditional enemies" like France and Germany.
> 
> I put it to some Brexiters that if Brussels was in London and was led by the British would they still support Brexit? I wasn't surprised to hear a unanimous no to that!
> 
> So, the UK forming alliances with other far-right Eurosceptic parties. It "leads the way" by leaving the EU that might encourage others to do the same and perhaps join them in another form of a united Europe led by the British. The EU as it stands then collapses.
> 
> Some of the smaller countries might fall for this, but would France and Germany in a post EU far right or left environment?
> 
> We know what that led to in the past......


The idea that we could pursue "another form of a united Europe led by the British" is not one that I can't foresee at the moment. But with all these things we should heed the lessons of history and at least keep an eye on the direction of travel.

I do think there is definitely an arrogance and a superiority complex here, (though I wonder if it is any more pronounced than that of any other country, all of which have to think that they are special). One of the problems with the Brexit negotiations is that the UK went into them thinking that we were an equal partner of the other 27 put together, and certainly more important than any other one of them.

I'm not sure we think we should rule the world, but we definitely seem to think that there is a deference due to us because of the influence the country has had in the past. It is difficult for some people to recognise that things change, and have done so considerably since 1945.

Personally I find both sad and ignorant the continuing antagonistic attitude of some towards Germany, but there is no doubt at all that it is still there and that it has had a significant influence on the opinion of many towards the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think is we are still a very arrogant country, we still think that the world is covered in pink and we rule most of it, well we don't and no one owes us a bl**dy thing. So it's about time we woke up to that, life is going to be very hard outside the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I think is we are still a very arrogant country, we still think that the world is covered in pink and we rule most of it, well we don't and no one owes us a bl**dy thing. So it's about time we woke up to that, life is going to be very hard outside the EU.


Indeed, but I find it odd how many of the same people don't appear to object to being controlled by the US.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, but I find it odd how many of the same people don't appear to object to being controlled by the US.


Don't get me started on the US wish it would just disappear off the face of the planet


----------



## noushka05

More good news.

*Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 9h9 hours ago
Tucked away in the Business section. It's shameful that when business speaks truth to #Brexit power it doesn't make the front page
"Boxmaker shelves £50m plant over Brexit" #BrexitReality #brave @peoplesvote_uk

*Smurfit Kappa shelves £50m plant over Brexit fears*
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...f?shareToken=be2579bdbf425b48d113eaf3b7136b71


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 5h5 hours ago
In this week's episode of Screwing The Country For My Pals, Nigel remembers the time he laughed at the 
money his friends had already made from Brexit while the damage to ordinary people becomes clear.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> More good news.
> 
> *Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 9h9 hours ago
> Tucked away in the Business section. It's shameful that when business speaks truth to #Brexit power it doesn't make the front page
> "Boxmaker shelves £50m plant over Brexit" #BrexitReality #brave @peoplesvote_uk
> 
> *Smurfit Kappa shelves £50m plant over Brexit fears*
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...f?shareToken=be2579bdbf425b48d113eaf3b7136b71


It's all very well to point to instances like Unilever, where the decision to move may have been less to do with Brexit than originally thought, but there are so many like this that it is impossible to pretend that damage has not already been caused.

The number of companies increasing their employment in the UK _because_ of Brexit is certainly very small indeed.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> More good news.
> 
> *Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 9h9 hours ago
> Tucked away in the Business section. It's shameful that when business speaks truth to #Brexit power it doesn't make the front page
> "Boxmaker shelves £50m plant over Brexit" #BrexitReality #brave @peoplesvote_uk
> 
> *Smurfit Kappa shelves £50m plant over Brexit fears*
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...f?shareToken=be2579bdbf425b48d113eaf3b7136b71


Did you see the (Tony Smurfit) interview? He says he still believes that the adults will take over and in a couple of years we'll be saying what was all that about.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see the Dutch got the hump that Unilever changed its mind about moving to Holland.

*Cabinet to reconsider scrapping dividend tax after Unilever pullout*
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/...crapping-dividend-tax-after-unilever-pullout/


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I see the Dutch got the hump that Unilever changed its mind about moving to Holland.


Something to do with staying in stock exchange top 100


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Something to do with staying in stock exchange top 100


Nope. It was to do with Unilever pulling out of moving to Rotterdam. The Dutch Cabinet got the hump. How childish they are.


----------



## KittenKong

When I first saw this I thought it was a satirical and sarcastic look at Brexit, or some sort of joke.

But no, it's from the Telegraph and shared by Leave.EU. Not, "Have I got News For You".

Unbelievable.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1045545945543646&id=794492093982367


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> When I first saw this I thought it was a satirical and sarcastic look at Brexit, or some sort of joke.
> 
> But no, it's from the Telegraph and shared by Leave.EU.
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1045545945543646&id=794492093982367


Well embrace Brexit then and enjoy the ride  :Hilarious

I have this vision some remainers are sat at home, cannot enjoy life and sit there fearing everything that is said or happens about the negotiations. Life is going on outside your home you know.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Nope. It was to do with Unilever pulling out of moving to Rotterdam. The Dutch Cabinet got the hump. How childish they are.


NO an interview yesterday, they said they needed to be in the top 100 of our stockmarket, something to do with share prices


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> NO an interview yesterday, they said they needed to be in the top 100 of our stockmarket, something to do with share prices


The *Dutch* news seem to think otherwise.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> When I first saw this I thought it was a satirical and sarcastic look at Brexit, or some sort of joke.
> 
> But no, it's from the Telegraph and shared by Leave.EU. Not, "Have I got News For You".
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1045545945543646&id=794492093982367


It's got to be taking the mickey, hasn't it? Surely. They're putting forward throwing away workers rights & environmental controls as benefits of leaving?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well embrace Brexit then and enjoy the ride  :Hilarious
> 
> I have this vision some remainers are sat at home, cannot enjoy life and sit there fearing everything that is said or happens about the negotiations. Life is going on outside your home you know.


You have got to be bloody joking.

I appreciate you might embrace paper documents, going back to pounds and ounces, the shape of your bananas, banning of the EU flag and the other pathetic points in the video.

I seriously thought it was satire.

If people actually voted for any of the points in the video I feel quite sorry for them.

Life does indeed go on outside our homes. It's a pity our movements will be restricted in the future at Theresa May's pleasure.

You seriously think I should embrace that?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It's all very well to point to instances like Unilever, where the decision to move may have been less to do with Brexit than originally thought, but there are so many like this that it is impossible to pretend that damage has not already been caused.
> 
> The number of companies increasing their employment in the UK _because_ of Brexit is certainly very small indeed.


Businesses don't like uncertainty. My hubby works for a Belgium metal recycling firm, his job isn't looking good. The company depends on a frictionless trade, it darent invest, its in limbo. Manufacturing, the steel industry are the big employers where I live. If they go its going to have domino effect across many different sectors. I dread to think how many jobs will go. I live in a deprived area as it is, I fear a lot of people already struggling will go under. And the tories have ripped away the welfare safety net for them.



Elles said:


> Did you see the (Tony Smurfit) interview? He says he still believes that the adults will take over and in a couple of years we'll be saying what was all that about.


No I haven't seen it Elles. Could you link it for me please? From what I've seen of this Smurfit guy, he seems a decent sort


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It's got to be taking the mickey, hasn't it? Surely. They're putting forward throwing away workers rights & environmental controls as benefits of leaving?


That's exactly what I thought until I noticed it came from the Telegraph and shared by Leave.EU.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> That's exactly what I thought until I noticed it came from the Telegraph and shared by Leave.EU.


It's absolutely appalling. Not to mention being rubbish in many cases.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Donald Tusk and Junker are saying a deal can be reached within the next 2 weeks.

Also...

*EU to offer UK a 'supercharged' free trade Brexit deal next week*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...k-supercharged-free-trade-deal-next-week/amp/


----------



## noushka05

Is this really what leave voters voted for?

*An A-Z of jobs under £50,000 that Theresa May says are not skilled*
Theresa May announces an end to low-skilled EU migration for salaries below a certain threshold.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-under-50000-theresa-may-says-are-not-skilled

Academics
Builders 
Chefs
Doctors 
Electricians 
Farm workers
Gas inspectors
Healthcare assistants 
Illustrators 
Journalists 
Kitchen hands 
Lab technicians 
Manufacturing workers 
Nurses 
OTs 
Pharmacists 
Quantity surveyors 
Registrars 
Social workers 
Zoologist


----------



## stockwellcat.

*'Brexit deal could be struck BEFORE 2019' Donald Tusk says EU edging closer to agreement*

A BREXIT deal between the UK and EU could be struck before the end of the year, European Council president Donald Tusk has said.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1027818/Brexit-latest-news-Donald-Tusk-European-Council-deal-summit-European-Union/amp


----------



## Elles

This one I think @noushka05

I haven't had another watch, but this one looks familiar.

His company is quite high on worker satisfaction too, people seem to like working for the company. Hopefully the American attempts to buy it out won't be successful.


----------



## rona

Does anyone have the same feeling as me and this deal was done many weeks ago ....................It's going to be a white wash. Pull the wool over the masses. as usual


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Does anyone have the same feeling as me and this deal was done many weeks ago ....................It's going to be a white wash. Pull the wool over the masses. as usual


I have that feeling as well.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Does anyone have the same feeling as me and this deal was done many weeks ago ....................It's going to be a white wash. Pull the wool over the masses. as usual


Yep. Welcome to the sceptic's club. :Hilarious


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> Don't get me started on the US wish it would just disappear off the face of the planet


What a lovely comment....


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> This one I think @noushka05
> 
> I haven't had another watch, but this one looks familiar.
> 
> His company is quite high on worker satisfaction too, people seem to like working for the company. Hopefully the American attempts to buy it out won't be successful.


Thank you. I like him a lot!. He seems genuinely concerned not just for Britain, but for our neighbours too. Polar opposite of that wetherspoon guy and that Dyson fraud. I share his hopes that the adults will take over, unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any in this government.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Gibraltar is negotiatied , with exclusion of ... Gibraltar government or any representative. Spain wants us to have the same life level as Campo de Gibraltar. Which has hardly any other big employers but Gibraltar. 

Means they will throttle our economy and that of the zone along with it... if our economy collapses there will be no work for 8 k officially employed Spanish residents and neither for unofficially employed few thousands more ( cleaners, careers, handymen).

Governments of Spain and Britain agree on one - they don’t give a damn about “ the people “. 
They have nice , fat pay packets , so no worries for them how we and our families and animals will live.

Those who voted for Brexit didn’t give a damn either.
Not even about our cats and dogs... it is incredibly hard of late to rehome even small pedigree dogs!!!

People just worry about future, not a good time to take on pets.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Thank you. I like him a lot!. He seems genuinely concerned not just for Britain, but for our neighbours too. Polar opposite of that wetherspoon guy and that Dyson fraud. I share his hopes that the adults will take over, unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any in this government.


Yeah, clearly he wants to stay in really, but at least he thinks there's a chance the adults will take over and Brexit won't be a total disaster lol.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Is this really what leave voters voted for?
> 
> *An A-Z of jobs under £50,000 that Theresa May says are not skilled*
> Theresa May announces an end to low-skilled EU migration for salaries below a certain threshold.
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-under-50000-theresa-may-says-are-not-skilled
> 
> Academics
> Builders
> Chefs
> Doctors
> Electricians
> Farm workers
> Gas inspectors
> Healthcare assistants
> Illustrators
> Journalists
> Kitchen hands
> Lab technicians
> Manufacturing workers
> Nurses
> OTs
> Pharmacists
> Quantity surveyors
> Registrars
> Social workers
> Zoologist


----------



## Elles

I agree that companies don’t like uncertainty and could be foolish investing atm, but hopefully not too long now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> What a lovely comment....


I'm sorry if I've upset you but I really don't like the US they have ruined our language they voted an Idiot into the white house, I just think it a mad country we could do without.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry if I've upset you but I really don't like the US they have ruined our language they voted an Idiot into the white house, I just think it a mad country we could do without.


Well he is very clever as he hasn't been impeached yet and he has managed to get North Korea talking.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry if I've upset you but I really don't like the US they have ruined our language they voted an Idiot into the white house, I just think it a mad country we could do without.


There are 320 million people in the US. It's rather narrow minded to cast them all with the same brush, let alone to wish they were not even alive....

As for language, it's an involving concept and no one "owns it". Take the word Soccer for example. Many people associate that word with the US but it's actually an British word related to the term "Association", and was actually used more than Football in the UK.

Trump... yeah he is a **** but I don't blame the whole population for that, I mean he didn't even win the popular vote anyway.... it would be like blaming the whole of the UK for Brexit, which is not the case


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well like it or not that's how I feel,


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws said:


> Well like it or not that's how I feel,


And your entitled to your opinion of course! Like I am in challenging yours


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yeah, clearly he wants to stay in really, but at least he thinks there's a chance the adults will take over and Brexit won't be a total disaster lol.


The adults better hurry up then cos time isnt on our side!. Its looking like a bad deal or no deal, both of which will be a disaster - and not just for jobs:Nailbiting



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371032


I love that:Hilarious So true.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I agree that companies don't like uncertainty and could be foolish investing atm, but hopefully not too long now.


The only hope is to stay in the single market & customs union. Its looking bad at the mo but fingers crossed common sense prevails. For peace in Irelands sake more than anything.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well he is very clever as he hasn't been impeached yet and he has managed to get North Korea talking.


Theres nothing clever about lying - his supporters clearly dont care about facts though. Trump is a dangerous demagogue who has made the world a far more dangerous place.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Does anyone have the same feeling as me and this deal was done many weeks ago ....................It's going to be a white wash. *Pull the wool over the masses. as usual *


Well it worked for the Leave campaign!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I agree that companies don't like uncertainty and could be foolish investing atm, but hopefully not too long now.


It depends on the deal, of course, but if it's a relatively soft Brexit than I expect investment to pick up, and with an extra boost from a "thank god for that!" factor.

But we still have to remember that trade and therefore business is going to be more expensive than had we stayed in the single market (assuming we do leave) and that regardless of the boost it will take us a long time to get back to where we would have been, and probably long enough that the factors involved are not attributable.

Not doom-mongering, just logic.


----------



## noushka05

This.

_Post Brexit the UK will be the first nation on earth to ever deliberately try to negotiate worse trade conditions with its customer countries than it had previously. 
Think about that. It's never happened before._


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry if I've upset you but I really don't like the US they have ruined our language they voted an Idiot into the white house, I just think it a mad country we could do without.


I agree wholeheartedly. Just what do the UK and the US have in common apart from more or less speaking the language? I feel far closer to our soon to be former European neighbours and still will do after Brexit.

In the same sense, being a Northumbrian I feel closer to Scotland than I do Westminster.

Having said that I agree with some of the comments that it's unfair to categorise all Americans under the same brush, as much as it would for those outside the UK to regard everyone in the UK as being arrogant Theresa May loving Brexiters.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> to regard everyone in the UK as being arrogant Theresa May loving Brexiters.


Can I please correct you? Theresa May voted remain on referendum day and backed the remain campaign. I for one am not arrogant so speak for yourself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May makes bid for disgruntled Labour voters*

The prime minister is hoping to capitalise on tensions within the opposition and pick up support for her Brexit deal.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/theresa-may-makes-bid-for-disgruntled-labour-voters-11519910


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Can I please correct you? Theresa May voted remain on referendum day and backed the remain campaign. I for one am not arrogant so speak for yourself.


...I think you may have significantly misread the point being expressed there...


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May makes bid for disgruntled Labour voters*
> 
> The prime minister is hoping to capitalise on tensions within the opposition and pick up support for her Brexit deal.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/theresa-may-makes-bid-for-disgruntled-labour-voters-11519910


_"We are the only option for moderate voters" says woman who deported Windrush citizens and backed the far right Orban and is pursuing the hardest possible Brexit __and extreme immigration rules and an austerity that's killed 1000s and sent foodbank use and childhood poverty soaring" _

David Schneider

I'm sure they'll be flocking over to the worst government in living memory. (mind you a hell of a lot of people seem to believe any old rubbish these days so who knows :/ )


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> ...I think you may have significantly misread the point being expressed there...


Nope.
I know what he ment and the point he was expressing. I think I captured the part where he expresses his true feelings towards leave voters. But we know that messages are cryptic and you have to read between the lines with him.

I know in what context he was expressing himself last night. I am not stupid. It's funny isn't it, if a leave voter said what he said it would have been blown out of proportion by some remain voters if it was about the remain voters. I know this for a fact as we have had 2 years of this name calling which is now petty and childish and 2 years of some remain voters self proclaiming themselves as experts, twisting what has been said and misinterpreting the referendum result of 2016 and the rules around it and making assumptions of what Brexit will be like.

I think the correction about Theresa May was justified as she campaigned for and voted for remain and not all leave voters are arrogant like not all remain voters are arrogant either.


----------



## Arnie83

Seems to me that offence, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder, especially when you have to squint to see it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=269501247238744



How much hatred against Gibraltar that brings! Considering we provide work for 10 k Spanish residents, who spent their earnings in Spain providing jobs for so many.

SWC easy to Google translate. Spain wants simply to wipe us off the map and as before EU was telling them to shut up now they back them up obviously.
We, people whose livelihoods depends on preserving status quo, people on both sides of the frontier are simply collateral damage of British selfishness and incompetence.
Gibraltar was not in white papers, Spain jumped in that.

How very patriotic- throw the Rock, to symbol of British bravery and yes patriotism and sacrifice- now throw it to the wolves.

How many so " patriots " even know about the Great Siege and it's significance?

I am just truly worried.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> SWC easy to Google translate.


So why was your post aimed at me might I ask? And why do I want to use Google Translate?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Can I please correct you? Theresa May voted remain on referendum day and backed the remain campaign. I for one am not arrogant so speak for yourself.


You misunderstood what I was saying.

For someone outside the US to regard their people as all the same would be like someone from outside the UK seeing all their people as being Theresa May loving arrogant and bigoted Brexiters.

A nation of Alf Garnet types in other words.

Not my own views, just the views people outside the UK may have on all of us, myself included.

Now I know not all Brexiters are arrogant, bigoted racists even if a good percentage of them are.

As for Theresa May, yes she said she backed Remain in the referendum. She's an outright liar and has proven she's was a wolf in sheep's clothing at that time.

My suspicions of her, like most things have turned out to be correct. Yes I know you jump to her defence at every given opportunity. I don't understand why seeing you repeatedly say you are against her Chequers plan.

As I said many times I would never get behind her even if I did support Brexit.



stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May makes bid for disgruntled Labour voters*
> 
> The prime minister is hoping to capitalise on tensions within the opposition and pick up support for her Brexit deal.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/theresa-may-makes-bid-for-disgruntled-labour-voters-11519910


Flaming joke. Reminds me of this from 1979.









Most disgruntled Labour supporters, like me would be more likely to vote Lib Dems or the Greens seeing they're main UK wide anti Brexit parties.

Likewise with disgruntled moderate Tory voters.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You misunderstood what I was saying.
> 
> For someone outside the US to regard their people as all the same would be like someone from outside the UK seeing all their people as being Theresa May loving arrogant and bigoted Brexiters.
> 
> A nation of Alf Garnet types in other words.
> 
> Not my own views, just the views people outside the UK may have on all of us, myself included.
> 
> Now I know not all Brexiters are arrogant, bigoted racists even if a good percentage of them are.
> 
> As for Theresa May, yes she said she backed Remain in the referendum. She's an outright liar and has proven she's was a wolf in sheep's clothing at that time.
> 
> My suspicions of her, like most things have turned out to be correct. Yes I know you jump to her defence at every given opportunity. I don't understand why seeing you repeatedly say you are against her Chequers plan.
> 
> As I said many times I would never get behind her even if I did support Brexit.
> 
> Flaming joke. Reminds me of this from 1979.
> View attachment 371128
> 
> 
> Most disgruntled Labour supporters, like me would be more likely to vote Lib Dems or the Greens seeing they're main UK wide anti Brexit parties.
> 
> Likewise with disgruntled moderate Tory voters.
> 
> I wouldn't


This disgruntled Labour voter would not vote in a General Election with Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in it. I would never dream of voting for Lib Dems or Green or any of the other parties.

I don't hold hatred towards anyone.

Yes we have the worst Government in recent history in power. A remainer MP (Theresa May) should never have been left to deal with Brexit a leave voting MP should have done it. Theresa May will have to do to lead the UK out of the EU. The Conservatives are quietly saying they intend on getting rid of Theresa May after Brexit (29th March 2019). So it looks as if we have to accept Theresa May will be the one to take the UK out of the EU. Does it mean the Conservatives will be in power for ever? No. But on the other hand do I think Labour is ready to have it's term in office? Not with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm. No.

Before I have my words twisted I would not want Labour doing Brexit as I disagree with there Brexit plans but saying that I disagree with the Chequers Plan as well. Do I want Brexit stopped. Hell No.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> So why was your post aimed at me might I ask? And why do I want to use Google Translate?


Because you wanted to know what the fuss is about? Gibraltar?
Spain accused us of being anachronistic and the being the colony of strangers on their doorstep, but they have 12 colonies on the coast of Morocco, Ceuta being the biggest.
But Britain will sell us for the deal.
Thank you Leavers, for you it means nothing , for us everything.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This disgruntled Labour voter would not vote in a General Election with Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in it. I would never dream of voting for Lib Dems or Green or any of the other parties.
> 
> I don't hold hatred towards anyone.
> 
> Yes we have the worst Government in recent history in power. A remainer MP (Theresa May) should never have been left to deal with Brexit a leave voting MP should have done it. Theresa May will have to do to lead the UK out of the EU. The Conservatives are quietly saying they intend on getting rid of Theresa May after Brexit (29th March 2019). So it looks as if we have to accept Theresa May will be the one to take the UK out of the EU. Does it mean the Conservatives will be in power for ever? No. But on the other hand do I think Labour is ready to have it's term in office? Not with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm. No.
> 
> Before I have my words twisted I would not want Labour doing Brexit as I disagree with there Brexit plans but saying that I disagree with the Chequers Plan as well. Do I want Brexit stopped. Hell No.


I wouldn't want Labour doing Brexit either. That's why I won't be voting for them.

We only have Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's word they voted remain at the referendum. It'll be between them and the ballot box.....


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I wouldn't want Labour doing Brexit either. That's why I won't be voting for them.
> 
> We only have Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's word they voted remain at the referendum. *It'll be between them and the ballot box*.....


Well in that case, I will not vote at a General Election. If there was a People's Vote I would vote exactly the same way I did in 2016 (But I doubt there will be a People's vote at all this side of Brexit).


----------



## noushka05

As we never have a Green candidate I would vote for labour whoever the leader was. Our badgers lives depend on getting the tories out. Stopping this mass slaughter has been top of my agenda since its inception. And I could never forgive the lib dems for the role they played in enabling this either.

*Chris Packham*‏Verified account @ChrisGPackham Sep 30
_So we are a nation of animal lovers are we ? This cull of Badgers has to end for a range of sound reasons - none more important than thi_s.

*Video shows slow death of 'culled' badger*
Film of an animal's death throes raises questions over the slaughter

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/video-shows-slow-death-of-culled-badger-5q3gw7sht


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well in that case, I will not vote at a General Election. If there was a People's Vote I would vote exactly the same way I did in 2016 (But I doubt there will be a People's vote at all this side of Brexit).


Yes, a PV would appear unlikely but if it were to happen the questions we'll be asked will be different. If the original 2016 referendum was better organised in the first place they would be less confusion at what the "Will of the people" actually is/was.

After all Theresa May insists her Chequers plan is the, "Will of the people".

Doesn't seem to be the case as most Brexiters and Remainers alike are against it.

The questions would or should be: Cancel Article 50 and remain (on existing terms), Leave on Theresa May's terms or Leave with no deal.

You would have the opportunity to vote for " Leave with no deal".

Had this been done in the first place and, say "Leave with no deal" won they would've been far better prepared for that. Have the Irish border built and capacity at ports such as Dover modified in preparation for Brexit day.

Instead this grossly incompetent government haven't a clue at what they're doing, they're relying on getting a good deal with the EU which is looking less likely by the day. Also waste time and expense in calling a GE unnecessarily. I could go on and on......


----------



## noushka05

Love Johnny Marr <3

Observer: UK music stars including Ed Sheeran, Jarvis Cocker, Brian Eno & Johnny Marr warn that #Brexit threatens to wreak havoc on their industry & turn Britain
into a "self-built cultural jail", #PeoplesVote#


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The questions would or should be: Cancel Article 50 and remain (on existing terms), Leave on Theresa May's terms or Leave with no deal.


Labour said it would be up to Parliament what the question would be and the possible answers. So I doubt the questions you are suggesting above will be the questions asked as Labour said question (But I doubt very much that a Peoples Vote will happen at all).

Then cannot make his mind up Corbyn said Labour would back a Brexit deal that May brings back that keeps the UK in a customs union and single market knowing very well that what he promises with staying in a customs union with the EU will hamper the UK in being able to strike its own trade deals. So he is misleading the public as well or should I say attempting to mislead.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> As we never have a Green candidate I would vote for labour whoever the leader was. Our badgers lives depend on getting the tories out. Stopping this mass slaughter has been top of my agenda since its inception. And I could never forgive the lib dems for the role they played in enabling this either.
> 
> *Chris Packham*‏Verified account @ChrisGPackham Sep 30
> _So we are a nation of animal lovers are we ? This cull of Badgers has to end for a range of sound reasons - none more important than thi_s.
> 
> *Video shows slow death of 'culled' badger*
> Film of an animal's death throes raises questions over the slaughter
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/video-shows-slow-death-of-culled-badger-5q3gw7sht


I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but isn't Corbyn's offer to work with Theresa May in delivering Brexit not as fatal as Nick Clegg going into coalition with David Cameron?

I certainly believe it is. Being a Brexiter is his business but offering to work with a in delivering a right-wing Brexit truly baffles me.

It also goes against the motion passed at the Conference in delivering a PV. Has Corbyn respected that motion or rejected it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Love Johnny Marr <3
> 
> Observer: UK music stars including Ed Sheeran, Jarvis Cocker, Brian Eno & Johnny Marr warn that #Brexit threatens to wreak havoc on their industry & turn Britain
> into a "self-built cultural jail", #PeoplesVote#


I read articles in other papers this morning and the word that flagged up for me in these articles is could which means they are scaremongering as they don't know for certain.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but isn't Corbyn's offer to work with Theresa May in delivering Brexit not as fatal as Nick Clegg going into coalition with David Cameron?
> 
> I certainly believe it is. Being a Brexiter is his business but offering to work with a in delivering a right-wing Brexit truly baffles me.
> 
> It also goes against the motion passed at the Conference in delivering a PV. Has Corbyn respected that motion or rejected it?


He offered to work with her _providing _labours six tests for brexit were met. Which of course she would never agree to. Hence as horrid George Osborne put the ball in her court.

_Corbyn offers May a Brexit deal - stay in customs union, keep open Irish border and social protection. Business and unions would accept this; many in Tory party won't. Puts *ball* in PM's *court*_


We wouldnt even be in this mess if the lib dems hadn't gone into coalition with the tories KK.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I read articles in other papers this morning and the word that flagged up for me in these articles is could which means they are scaremongering as they don't know for certain.


Scaremongering, project fear, fake news .....recurring.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Love Johnny Marr <3
> 
> Observer: UK music stars including Ed Sheeran, Jarvis Cocker, Brian Eno & Johnny Marr warn that #Brexit threatens to wreak havoc on their industry & turn Britain
> into a "self-built cultural jail", #PeoplesVote#


This is rather like a modern day equivalent of " Rock Against Racism" and similar against the Poll Tax.

"Stand Down Margaret" from the Beat and Ruff Ruff and Ready with "Poll Tax" respectively as examples. Not checked the former but the latter is certainly on You Tube.

Just like in those days pro government artists tend to remain silent on such beliefs in the main.

As far as I'm aware, the only musician to come out in favour of Brexit is Roger Daltrey of The Who.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> He offered to work with her _providing _labours six tests for brexit were met. Which of course she would never agree to. Hence as horrid George Osborne put the ball in her court.
> 
> _Corbyn offers May a Brexit deal - stay in customs union, keep open Irish border and social protection. Business and unions would accept this; many in Tory party won't. Puts *ball* in PM's *court*_
> 
> We wouldnt even be in this mess if the lib dems hadn't gone into coalition with the tories KK.


You're right but as long as Corbyn continues to push for any form of Brexit against clear opposition from most of his party and Labour supporters he gets a thumbs down from me.

He's blown it sadly. He's putting his own personal agenda against party policy.

This comment from someone from the 48% FB page speaks volumes for many of us.


----------



## KittenKong

Just when Donald Trump is expected to rescue Britain from ruin after Brexit, The Telegraph of all papers reports this.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I read articles in other papers this morning and the word that flagged up for me in these articles is could which means they are scaremongering as they don't know for certain.


I've no idea whether the musicians are right - haven't read it yet - but warning of unwelcome events without being certain they will occur is not always scaremongering.

We have no idea exactly when volcanic eruptions will occur, but if you're ever warned that one is imminent and you're sitting underneath it you would do well to get moving rather than claiming they're just scaremongering because they don't know for certain, and staying put.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Just when Donald Trump is expected to rescue Britain from ruin after Brexit, The Telegraph of all papers reports this.
> 
> View attachment 371157
> 
> 
> View attachment 371158


Well knock me down with a feather.

Some people claim that we must leave the EU because it's 'protectionist' and that everything will be fine because Trump's America will give us a great deal. It beggars belief.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Just when Donald Trump is expected to rescue Britain from ruin after Brexit, The Telegraph of all papers reports this.
> 
> View attachment 371157
> 
> 
> View attachment 371158


That's old news. It was published by The Telegraph and several other newspapers on or around 15th MAY 2018!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/15/trump-threatens-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Did you see the (Tony Smurfit) interview? He says he still believes that the adults will take over and in a couple of years we'll be saying what was all that about.


I work with a Scot (who pretty much hates us English ) and he thinks that in 2 years time, Labour will be in power (not under Corbyn) and that we will still be in the EU.

He's convinced of it.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Well knock me down with a feather.
> 
> Some people claim that we must leave the EU because it's 'protectionist' and that everything will be fine because Trump's America will give us a great deal. It beggars belief.


Seems that many Brexiters will not only be happy being referred as "Third Country" citizens within most of Europe, to include EEA areas, but also to be classed as Second Class citizens by the country they expect will save them.

It was always going to be, "America First", and any deal would have to benefit the US rather than the UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> This disgruntled Labour voter would not vote in a General Election with Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in it. I would never dream of voting for Lib Dems or Green or any of the other parties.
> 
> I don't hold hatred towards anyone.
> 
> Yes we have the worst Government in recent history in power. A remainer MP (Theresa May) should never have been left to deal with Brexit a leave voting MP should have done it. Theresa May will have to do to lead the UK out of the EU. The Conservatives are quietly saying they intend on getting rid of Theresa May after Brexit (29th March 2019). So it looks as if we have to accept Theresa May will be the one to take the UK out of the EU. Does it mean the Conservatives will be in power for ever? No. But on the other hand do I think Labour is ready to have it's term in office? Not with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm. No.
> 
> Before I have my words twisted I would not want Labour doing Brexit as I disagree with there Brexit plans but saying that I disagree with the Chequers Plan as well. Do I want Brexit stopped. Hell No.


Oh, BoJo in power would then deliver the Brexit of your dreams? I remember him being the alternative to TM? Still is...
Or would it be King Arthur?

There never was a plan to start off with...

Do you think you would have done better?
Maybe you prompted here would add Gibraltar to White Paper...
How would you solve the Irish frontier problem, custom union, the problems of the City - free flow of financial services...
The students from EU and so on?
Tell us what should be done.
Get Trump to offer us the deal good for us, not just USA?

Hindsight is a great gift!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Seems that many Brexiters will not only be happy being referred as "Third Country" citizens within most of Europe, to include EEA areas, but also to be classed as Second Class citizens by the country they expect will save them.
> 
> It was always going to be, "America First", and any deal would have to benefit the US rather than the UK.


Just ask Bombardier and the steel industry!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> There never was a plan to start off with...


 Yes there was. It was to leave the EU.


> Do you think you would have done better?


Yes


> Maybe you prompted here would add Gibraltar to White Paper...


Yes. It should be turned into a UK only Holiday Resort.


> custom union
> 
> 
> 
> We don't need to be in one.
> 
> 
> 
> the problems of the City - free flow of financial services...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What problems in the City? Which City? Remeber I am currently living in London and I have seen no problems with the City.
> 
> 
> 
> The students from EU and so on?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can still study here. Get a visa.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell us what should be done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read above.
> 
> 
> 
> Get Trump to offer us the deal good for us, not just USA?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's easy. He already wants a free trade deal with the UK.
Click to expand...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes there was. It was to leave the EU.
> YesYes


So the plan to leave is going to your plan, wonderful ain't it all?

Everybody dancing...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So the plan to leave is going to your plan, wonderful ain't it all?
> 
> Everybody dancing...


Leave means to vacate. Leave. Close the door behind you. Leave Behind. Since when did it mean anything else?


----------



## KittenKong

Typical bull**** drip feeding of anti EU propaganda from the press over the years.

The EU never planned to force UK homes to change their plugs and sockets into the type encountered throughout much of Europe. Cyprus for example use the same square pin plugs and sockets as the UK and drive on the left. I believe Malta does too.

Denmark I believe use their own style as well.

What the EU HAVE done in the early 1990s is standardise mains voltages to 230V from 220V across most of Europe and 240V in the UK. I remember people whinging about that at the time with comments like, "They'll be forcing us to drive on the right next".

As it turned out, the difference of 10V less UK voltage wasn't even noticed. I have 1960s TV sets that work perfectly on the 240V tapping. At one time voltages weren't standardised across the UK let alone Europe!

In 1973 during the " Colour Tv Boom" period UK manufacturers couldn't keep up with the demand for colour sets. This encouraged "back street wholesalers" to import colour sets from other parts of Europe.

As they were designed for 220V operation many of the sets burned out prematurely. They weren't cheap either!

During 1969 the UK introduced a new mains lead colour code system, going from Green E, Black N and Red L to Green and yellow, blue and brown respectively. Much of Europe continued with Blue N and Black L.

The coding introduced in the UK at the end of the '60s was eventually standardised across Europe.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Typical bull**** drip feeding of anti EU propaganda from the press.


Well you read it then post it on here and tell us about it. I have never read this before until you posted it on here.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well you read it then post it on here and tell us about it. I have never read this before until you posted it on here.


Just one of very many examples of what the press reported over the past 40 years.

I remember UK legislation introduced in the year 2000 which said all loose produce must be sold in metric amounts there was an uproar. The EU were fully blamed for it.
Grocers who refused to sell in metric amounts were prosecuted for not doing so. They became known as, "Metric martyrs" for standing up for British weights and measures.

And, oh yes, reports that the quarter pounder beef burger could become known as the, "113 grammer". This never happened either.

The British Metrication Board was established in the '60s, yet it was always the fault of the CM/EEC/EU for " forcing" the UK to adopt SI/Metric units. It originates from France you see.

Yet Australia and New Zealand adopted the metric system around the same time and are now fully metric. The EU can't possibly be blamed for that.

Some who support Brexit expect the UK to drop the metric system. I'm very surprised with the jingoism I've seen in supermarkets they haven't already done this, "Back to being British. British produce sold in British weights and measures".....

No one has ever been stopped from buying a LB of sausages with the butcher measuring out 454g on the scales etc.

I was having this debate on another forum. One interesting feedback I received was, " In order for Britain to trade with the world, it needs to fully adopt the metric system".


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It should be turned into a UK only Holiday Resort.


Sorry, but I think that attitude is appalling. Do you really hate the "None British" that much?

As it is, like everywhere else, the country will need tourism. And what if the average UK citizen cannot afford to fly there? A playground for only rich brits?

Perhaps you also believe the Falkland Islands should become a "British person only" tourist attraction too.

And Cheeky isn't "British" as you'd put it. Are you really suggesting she should be deported from there?

I found that comment truly offensive.

I dread to think what Cheeky thought of it.


----------



## Arnie83

This, I think, is interesting, and clarifies what the Canada +++ means to different sides suggesting it. Selected bits below.

*Brexiters like Boris Johnson are pushing a Canada +++ Brexit trade deal. Here's what that would actually look like*

For the EU, Canada +++ would include some version of the Northern Ireland backstop proposal. That is because any form of FTA, being outside of both the single market and a customs union, entails a border.

Some Brexiters do not accept this but they should, not least because one thing they want to achieve is an independent trade policy, with Britain free to set its own tariffs and regulations. For that to happen, as for a single market to exist, border control is necessary to prevent cross-contamination.
...

Even if achieved, Canada +++ would not enable Britain to 'have its cake and eat it'. Better to call it EU - - - since, in terms of trade, it would inevitably be worse than what Britain currently enjoys.​
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...-model-this-is-what-that-would-actually-mean/


----------



## Arnie83

And more support for a People's Vote ...

*Sturgeon: SNP MPs would vote for new Brexit referendum*

SNP MPs would back a new Brexit referendum if it were put to them, party leader Nicola Sturgeon has said.

Campaigners have been pressing for a fresh vote on whatever exit plans result from talks with EU leaders.

Labour has not ruled out supporting a so-called People's Vote, and some Tory MPs back the idea, although it has been ruled out by Theresa May.

Ms Sturgeon said SNP MPs would oppose anything short of staying in the single market and customs union.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45760207


----------



## KittenKong

The closer Brexit comes the more disgusted I become.

After those "Go home and face arrest" vans there's now this.

Potential tourists are going to be made very welcome aren't they. I guess they'll have to be the, "Right kind of tourist".....

I don't recognise the UK anymore.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/home-office-poster-airport-gatwick-immigration-windrush/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The closer Brexit comes the more disgusted I become.
> 
> After those "Go home and face arrest" vans there's now this.
> 
> Potential tourists are going to be made very welcome aren't they. I guess they'll have to be the, "Right kind of tourist".....
> 
> I don't recognise the UK anymore.
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/home-office-poster-airport-gatwick-immigration-windrush/
> 
> View attachment 371220
> View attachment 371221


It does seem a little unnecessary, doesn't it. It clearly isn't for the benefit of people arriving, who probably aren't thinking "I wonder why they're checking my passport?"

Presumably it's to send a message to the British people coming back from trips that the Tories are jolly serious about controlling the borders.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It does seem a little unnecessary, doesn't it. It clearly isn't for the benefit of people arriving, who probably aren't thinking "I wonder why they're checking my passport?"
> 
> Presumably it's to send a message to the British people coming back from trips that the Tories are jolly serious about controlling the borders.


And also gives the impression they regard all, "Non-British" people as potential terrorists or troublemakers until proven otherwise.

Just imagine border control in Spain for example doing the same with UK holidaymakers.

"What's good for the goose.....", as the saying goes.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Sorry, but I think that attitude is appalling. Do you really hate the "None British" that much?
> 
> As it is, like everywhere else, the country will need tourism. And what if the average UK citizen cannot afford to fly there? A playground for only rich brits?
> 
> Perhaps you also believe the Falkland Islands should become a "British person only" tourist attraction too.
> 
> And Cheeky isn't "British" as you'd put it. Are you really suggesting she should be deported from there?
> 
> I found that comment truly offensive.
> 
> I dread to think what Cheeky thought of it.


Cheeky thought... SWC what do you think Gibraltar did when Franco closed frontier?
SWC does not know that much about the history of Gibraltar , like many other British people...maybe the lack of knowledge of British history is to blamed for Brexit?
Modern especially.

@KittenKong I survived over twenty years on British soil as " East European" woman, I have a hide like a rhino...
SWC did not mean it in a personal way, don't think he was being mean.
By the way I am from Central Europe. If you look at the map or google.
The whole " East European" is strictly speaking quite a xenophobic term.
Not very palatable even for those who do not care much for political correctness.
Not that in my land of origin those who went "West" are very popular with the nationalists in power...

Anyhow last time I looked the only passport I got was British....

Leave is fine if you know where you are going?
A step into limbo is fine too, jump off the cliff if you must but dragging others along is not fair.


----------



## Elles

Under different circumstances it could be to show to people that they aren’t being singled out, everyone is checked, but given sentiments and politics today, it’s probably not.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Under different circumstances it could be to show to people that they aren't being singled out, everyone is checked, but given sentiments and politics today, it's probably not.


It wasn't worded very nicely, sounds like something written by someone for whom English is a second language.... doesn't it? 
Or they just tried to mimic it to be understood by foreigners with very limited English?

Very dumb foreigners too...


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> .


Your most to the point post ever!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Your most to the point post ever!!!


There you go. A spot on post :Hilarious It couldn't have been more to the point


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but isn't Corbyn's offer to work with Theresa May in delivering Brexit not as fatal as Nick Clegg going into coalition with David Cameron?
> 
> I certainly believe it is. Being a Brexiter is his business but offering to work with a in delivering a right-wing Brexit truly baffles me.
> 
> It also goes against the motion passed at the Conference in delivering a PV. Has Corbyn respected that motion or rejected it?


Seems Corbyn is under pressure to respect the conference motion, but I'm sure he'll do everything in his power to avoid doing so.

















https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-unions-party-conference-motion-a8570961.html


----------



## KittenKong

All comes down to the colour of your skin doesn't it?

What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in?








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-hinds-education-universities-a8572866.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Seems Corbyn is under pressure to respect the conference motion, but I'm sure he'll do everything in his power to avoid doing so.
> 
> View attachment 371272
> View attachment 371273
> 
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-unions-party-conference-motion-a8570961.html


Semantically I think this is right - "Full participation in the single market" does imply EEA membership at the least, but the leadership will claim that they can negotiate having and eating cake.

It doesn't matter in practice since they won't be in a position to negotiate anything, but I suppose it ensures that they are going to have to vote against any deal May brings back, unless she agrees to us staying in the EEA while leaving the EU, which, also semantically, satisfies the letter of the ballot.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> All comes down to the colour of your skin doesn't it?
> 
> What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in?
> View attachment 371274
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-hinds-education-universities-a8572866.html


OK. I think I get it, well sort of!

So in your book white British boys aren't allowed or shouldn't be disadvantaged as that's reserved for boys of colour?

Although you might not realise it, what you're practicing is reverse discrimination.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverse discriminatio

As you rightly say "What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in"?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.


I've seen it all before. In South Africa after the 1994 election which brought about the end of apartheid, using derogatory language towards a person of a different colour to you, was a punishable offence.

Unfortunately many people interpreted the law as meaning a white person couldn't make derogatory statements to or about a black person, but it was quite all right to do so the other way round!

It took months before the penny finally dropped that the law applied to everyone, whatever their colour.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> You're right but as long as Corbyn continues to push for any form of Brexit against clear opposition from most of his party and Labour supporters he gets a thumbs down from me.
> 
> He's blown it sadly. He's putting his own personal agenda against party policy.
> 
> This comment from someone from the 48% FB page speaks volumes for many of us.
> 
> View attachment 371156


I hear what you're saying KK, but he really is caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe I'm like you - I live in a traditionally labour stronghold which voted to leave? I listen to people round here and I fear little has changed - they still want us out. If they think labour has betrayed them, I fear labour will lose their seat here. I feel so conflicted about what the best course of action is.

And this didn't help - You may or may not have noticed that George Monbiot is someone I admire and respect very much lol. George is renowned for his integrity and honesty, for his investigative journalism and his critical thinking. So when he speaks, I listen - and he recently tweeted this - (which spells out labours dilemma )
_

This is a brilliant essay on the dilemmas of a #SecondReferendum, by @Neal_Compass. I strongly urge you to read it: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/neal-lawson/people-s-vote-on-brexit-be-careful-what-you-wish-for
_
Labour was set up to be a voice for the working class, for ordinary people. So when the Blair government adopted Thatcherism (albeit a more humane version) many traditional labour supporters felt betrayed. For decades they felt like political orphans KK. Until Corbyn came along. Neoliberalism is the root of all our problems KK.

This is how millions felt. And why Labour collapsed in Scotland. What make me laugh is how many conservative supporters hate Blair and New labour, understandable they should hate a Corbyn led labour party, but not the neoliberal one. (just to add I am disappointed in Corbyn though. His policies are very progressive, I just wish he had the gravitas of his social democratic counterpart in the USA. Bernie Sanders)









_


Magyarmum said:



OK. I think I get it, well sort of!

So in your book white British boys aren't allowed or shouldn't be disadvantaged as that's reserved for boys of colour?

Although you might not realise it, what you're practicing is reverse discrimination.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverse discriminatio

As you rightly say "What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in"?

Click to expand...




stockwellcat. said:



I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.

Click to expand...

_
Thats not the way I interpreted it. It looks like you're making something out of nothing to me. All KK meant is why mention colour at all. How is that discrimination against white boys. Its a shame people aren't as angry about the real nasty xenophobia being whipped up by right wing politicians at the moment.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I've seen it all before. In South Africa after the 1994 election which brought about the end of apartheid, using derogatory language towards a person of a different colour to you, was a punishable offence.
> 
> Unfortunately many people interpreted the law as meaning a white person couldn't make derogatory statements to or about a black person, but it was quite all right to do so the other way round!
> 
> It took months before the penny finally dropped that the law applied to everyone, whatever their colour.


Interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism

*Reverse racism* or *reverse discrimination* is a concept that portrays affirmative action in the United States and similar color-conscious programs as a form of anti-white racism on the part of black people and government agencies; it is commonly associated with conservative opposition to such programs.[1] The concept has also been used to characterize various expressions of hostility or indifference toward white people by members of minority groups.[2]

There is little to no empirical evidence to support the idea of reverse racism.[3][4][5] Racial and ethnic minorities in the United States generally lack the power to damage the interests of white people, who remain the dominant group.[6] Claims of reverse racism tend to ignore such disparities in the exercise of power and authority, which scholars argue constitute an essential component of racism.[2][7]

Despite a lack of evidence, belief in reverse racism is widespread in the United States.[5][6] While the U.S. dominates the debate over the issue, the concept of reverse racism has been used internationally to some extent wherever white supremacy has diminished, such as in post-apartheid South Africa. Allegations of reverse racism therefore form part of a racial backlash against gains by people of colour.[8]


----------



## stockwellcat.

Not long now.










4,142 hours to go until Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

How the heads of those mail readers must be spinning as the Mail on Sunday now urges its readers to prepare for the realities of a hard Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How the heads of those mail readers must be spinning as the Mail on Sunday now urges its readers to prepare for the realities of a hard Brexit.


Don't read the Mail or Mail on Sunday.
I think the media is hyping things alot and making it sound worse than it is actually going to be.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How the heads of those mail readers must be spinning as the Mail on Sunday now urges its readers to prepare for the realities of a hard Brexit.


If you are that worried that there will be a shortage of food etc Noushka try stocking up your cupboards with canned food (canned potatoes, canned beans etc) buy ration packs, buy pasta, pot noodles etc and be prepared. If it isn't as bad as the media is hyping then you have extra food.

You can also buy camping cookers, camping heaters (that run off gas bottles), power generstors and wind up camping radios if you are that worried about having no heating or power.

*Be Prepared!*

Honestly though. It is all hype and you are falling for it.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> This is a brilliant essay on the dilemmas of a #SecondReferendum, by @Neal_Compass. I strongly urge you to read it: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/neal-lawson/people-s-vote-on-brexit-be-careful-what-you-wish-for


Very sensible suggestions on the way forward there.

Currently not a snowball's chance in hell of it happening. 

On the other hand, things do change, and we're still heading for an impasse.


----------



## Elles

Clearly the mail doesn’t want a hard brexit then.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Don't read the Mail or Mail on Sunday.
> I think the media is hyping things alot and making it sound worse than it is actually going to be.


Why do you suppose the right-wing, Brexit supporting press would be doing that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Why do you suppose the right-wing, Brexit supporting press would be doing that?


To wind the renainers up?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Why do you suppose the right-wing, Brexit supporting press would be doing that?


If you are that concerned do what I suggested to noushka then you won't have to rely on the army or government hand outs if this did happen. *Be Prepared! *Then if what the Mail suggests might (again might being the operative word) happen doesn't happen you'll have extra food supplies etc.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> OK. I think I get it, well sort of!
> 
> So in your book white British boys aren't allowed or shouldn't be disadvantaged as that's reserved for boys of colour?
> 
> Although you might not realise it, what you're practicing is reverse discrimination.
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverse discriminatio
> 
> As you rightly say "What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in"?


Partly I agree with you, don't choke! I used to cringe at the Labour Party conferences in the '80s where, after a great speech from someone a young person came on the platform to demand a LP " Black Section".

This used to annoy me a great deal.

To have a separate section especially devoted to members who happen to have a different skin tone is as best racist and deeply devisive. Fortunately the leadership at the time wouldn't hear of it.

If a white member suggested something similar they rightly would've been an uproar.

I would have liked to have hoped that 30 years later things would have moved on where people could accept each other. I liked it when David Cameron referred to himself as "Colourblind" on one occasion. In other words see the person, not the skin colour of that person.

I believed, although the problem never went away fully they we're working towards a country of tolerance where no one would be discriminated against through skin colour, religion and sexuality. I say that for everyone regardless of "ethnic" background.

With what has gone on lately with xenophobia against foreign people accelerated since the Brexit vote it was last thing I wanted to read was that article yesterday.

It's very bad timing, as are those offensive notices at Gatwick.



stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.


Now, you're being silly. As a white heterosexual person why would I want to discriminate against myself?

What I don't want to see is discrimination against anyone. This country was working towards that but is now firmly in reverse gear.



noushka05 said:


> I hear what you're saying KK, but he really is caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe I'm like you - I live in a traditionally labour stronghold which voted to leave? I listen to people round here and I fear little has changed - they still want us out. If they think labour has betrayed them, I fear labour will lose their seat here. I feel so conflicted about what the best course of action is.
> 
> And this didn't help - You may or may not have noticed that George Monbiot is someone I admire and respect very much lol. George is renowned for his integrity and honesty, for his investigative journalism and his critical thinking. So when he speaks, I listen - and he recently tweeted this - (which spells out labours dilemma )
> _
> 
> This is a brilliant essay on the dilemmas of a #SecondReferendum, by @Neal_Compass. I strongly urge you to read it: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/neal-lawson/people-s-vote-on-brexit-be-careful-what-you-wish-for
> _
> Labour was set up to be a voice for the working class, for ordinary people. So when the Blair government adopted Thatcherism (albeit a more humane version) many traditional labour supporters felt betrayed. For decades they felt like political orphans KK. Until Corbyn came along. Neoliberalism is the root of all our problems KK.
> 
> This is how millions felt. And why Labour collapsed in Scotland. What make me laugh is how many conservative supporters hate Blair and New labour, understandable they should hate a Corbyn led labour party, but not the neoliberal one. (just to add I am disappointed in Corbyn though. His policies are very progressive, I just wish he had the gravitas of his social democratic counterpart in the USA. Bernie Sanders)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> _
> Thats not the way I interpreted it. It looks like you're making something out of nothing to me. All KK meant is why mention colour at all. How is that discrimination against white boys. Its a shame people aren't as angry about the real nasty xenophobia being whipped up by right wing politicians at the moment.


But Corbyn is using the 2016 referendum we know was based on cheating, gerrymandering and lies as gospel, playing the "Will of the people" tactic. By refusing to back a PV he's no better than May in that respect.

Corbyn disappoints me immensly. After a good start as Labour leader he now appears resigned to the fact he'll never get elected. After the excellent start at the Labour conference he completely ruined it by suggesting, rather than respecting the motion passed to support a PV, he went as far as suggesting he'd work with May in delivering her Brexit. Yes, they are conditions to that but why want to work with a deranged fascist? He should be fighting her all the way.

Then losing again would mean nothing to him. He'll still have his MPs salary and protest behind the back benches like he's always done.

For him, McDonnell and McCluskey to insist on no PV is no different from the hard right Tories saying the same.

It's hardly surprising half the population feel let down and ignored.

I despair, I really do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This country was working towards that *but is now firmly in reverse gear.*


No it isn't. What aload of tosh.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If you are that concerned do what I suggested to noushka then you won't have to rely on the army or government hand outs if this did happen. *Be Prepared! *Then if what the Mail suggests might (again might being the operative word) happen doesn't happen you'll have extra food supplies etc.


I'm not in the slightest concerned. I merely asked why the Brexit-supporting, right-wing press would be scaremongering. It seems to me more likely that the warnings they are highlighting might not be scaremongering at all.

If the National Hurricane Center predicts that a Category 3 might hit your part of the coast in a week's time, then you take precautions, even though a week in terms of weather prediction allow for great variation. What you don't is dismiss it as unknowable and therefore safely ignored.

The chances of significant disruption both short and medium term to business and the economy in the event of a No Deal Brexit are very high indeed. Dismissing them all as a Remainer plot is simply not logical.

That's why, for example, Rees-Mogg's company is setting up funds in Ireland and Redwood is advising people to get their money out of the UK. They are not scaremongering; they know what's coming if they get their way.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No it isn't. What aload of tosh.


Says the person who wants to see Gibraltar turned into a UK only holiday resort.

Before his fatal error, at least Cameron attempted to bring the Tory party into the 21st Century.

Now his successor wants a Festival of Brexit Britain, (assuming the UK survives that long), based on a 1950s event!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Clearly the mail doesn't want a hard brexit then.


Did they not change editors recently?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Says the person who wants to see Gibraltar turned into a UK only holiday resort.
> 
> Before his fatal error, at least Cameron attempted to bring the Tory party into the 21st Century.
> 
> *Now his successor wants a Festival of Brexit Britain, *(assuming the UK survives that long), based on a 1950s event!


I do wonder about her sanity at times.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Did they not change editors recently?


They did, and to one far less rabidly anti-EU / anti-immigrant than Dacre.

I'm not going to have a look at their readers' comments after the Brexit piece - it is always a really scary place - but I suspect they are now getting attacked along the usual, if not exactly well-argued, 'scaremongering' lines.


----------



## KittenKong

Now this is more like what I want to see. Not only backing a PV but this too.

Well done SNP!


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> No it isn't. What aload of tosh.


I saw a huge rise in overt racism after the referendum. Whatever anyone says now, the overwhelming reason for voting leave among many in some areas was 'immigration' and racists believe that vote vindicated their twisted beliefs.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> I saw a huge rise in overt racism after the referendum. Whatever anyone says now, the overwhelming reason for voting leave among many in some areas was 'immigration' and racists believe that vote vindicated their twisted beliefs.


You cannot tar everyone who voted leave with the same brush as not everyone who voted leave is racist.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Says the person who wants to see Gibraltar turned into a UK only holiday resort.
> 
> Before his fatal error, at least Cameron attempted to bring the Tory party into the 21st Century.
> 
> Now his successor wants a Festival of Brexit Britain, (assuming the UK survives that long), based on a 1950s event!


Yawn.
I could say, says the one who believes the UK is going to become a communist state.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am sorry @noushka05, @Arnie83, @KittenKong, @havoc but I refuse to come around to your negative way of thinking over Brexit and never will. You have your opinions or should I say use the opinions of others and I have mine.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> You cannot tar everyone who voted leave with the same brush as not everyone who voted leave is racist.


I didn't - I pointedly didn't.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Yawn.
> I could say, says the one who believes the UK is going to become a communist state.


See my reply below.


KittenKong said:


> I didn't say that. What I said was many see the ending of FOM was akin to what Communists did for their citizens to control who left by erecting the Berlin Wall.
> 
> If EU NHS workers are repatriated through the crime of 1). Not being "British" and 2). Earning less than £50K per annum which results in a major crisis do you think Theresa will allow UK born and trained, remembering THEY paid for their tuition, to leave the UK to work abroad?
> 
> Now, that would be akin to Communism. But in the UK's case it would be fascism.
> 
> As Cheeky said words to the effect of liberating Poland from fascism into Communism was out of the frying pan and into the fire.
> 
> That's why I support the EU. It's profoundly moderate which is why many on the far right and left despise it so much.
> 
> They miss the wars they used to have every couple of decades or so.


"Akin to communism is not the same".

I see no defence of your suggestion that Gibraltar should become a UK only holiday resort. What exactly did you mean by that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I see no defence of your suggestion that Gibraltar should become a UK only holiday resort. What exactly did you mean by that?


Funny how you have taken offence to that and yet Cheekyscrip didn't? Cheeky got what I ment and took no offence what-so-ever.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Funny how you have taken offence to that and yet Cheekyscrip didn't? Cheeky got what I ment and took no offence what-so-ever.


SWC, mate, there is a _beautiful _irony in your deployment of the 'you misinterpreted the way I meant it' defence...


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I am sorry @noushka05, @Arnie83, @KittenKong, @havoc but I refuse to come around to your negative way of thinking over Brexit and never will. You have your opinions *or should I say use the opinions of others *and I have mine.


I'm intrigued as to why you include this comment.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am sorry @noushka05, @Arnie83, @KittenKong, @havoc but I refuse to come around to your negative way of thinking over Brexit and never will. You have your opinions or should I say use the opinions of others and I have mine.


No one is suggesting you should. If you put posts in support and defence of Brexit you should expect feedback from others, whether they agree or disagree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No one is suggesting you should. If you put posts in support and defence of Brexit you should expect feedback from others, whether they agree or disagree.
> 
> I don't believe curtailing my rights to FOM anything to celebrate, not the nasty xenophobic place the UK, or at least England has become.


The UK hasn't become xenophobic at all or nasty. I don't see any nastiness except from some remainers on Brexit threads online, the abuse they gave the youngesters that voted leave in 2016 online. Sorry but I have not seen any other nastiness. Regarding the xenophobia comment get real. London has lots of foreign people from all over the world living in harmony (or as close to harmony as you will get) with British people and in Manchester, Oxford, Brighton & Hove and Birmingham (I cannot comment on other cities in the UK) . So where exactly is the xenophobia then?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Funny how you have taken offence to that and yet Cheekyscrip didn't? Cheeky got what I ment and took no offence what-so-ever.


I know you probably didn't mean it but your comment appeared to suggest those without UK passports should be excluded from Gibraltar.

As I understand it Cheeky has a UK passport so that exclusion wouldn't apply to her.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK hasn't become xenophobic at all or nasty. I don't see any nastiness except from some remainers on Brexit threads online, the abuse they gave the youngesters that voted leave in 2016 online. Sorry but I have not seen any other nastiness. Regarding the xenophobia comment get real. London has lots of foreign people from all over the world living in harmony (or as close to harmony as you will get) with British people and in Manchester, Oxford, Brighton & Hove and Birmingham (I cannot comment on other cities in the UK) . So where exactly is the xenophobia then?


Where have you been these past few years? "Go home or face arrest" vans, Windrush, the Jo Cox murder to name some examples?

Yet you have a point. Having lived in London I'm aware of the integration and the respect for different cultures in most cases. It tends to be the predominantly "white" areas in the UK that are the most racist.

I can't deny they hasn't been some derogatory comments towards Brexiters on social media either but there's a lot of vice versa. You only have to look at David Lammy's Twitter account for example.

Goes to show how divided the UK is. It won't suddenly end on Brexit day.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> So where exactly is the xenophobia then?


Look at the comments on any online news. Any crime report invites horrendous comments.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK hasn't become xenophobic at all or nasty. I don't see any nastiness except from some remainers on Brexit threads online, the abuse they gave the youngesters that voted leave in 2016 online. Sorry but I have not seen any other nastiness. Regarding the xenophobia comment get real. London has lots of foreign people from all over the world living in harmony (or as close to harmony as you will get) with British people and in Manchester, Oxford, Brighton & Hove and Birmingham (I cannot comment on other cities in the UK) . *So where exactly is the xenophobia then?*


For me, tribalism and xenophobia are two sides of the same coin, the former necessarily engendering and reinforcing the latter.

When considering Brexit as dispassionately as possible, I hear some people who say that an economic cost is 'a price worth paying' to leave the EU. Some others cite the benefits of leaving as being that we will make our own laws without influence from outside, but cannot quote a single law that has been detrimental to them; i.e. it is simply the fact of who makes the laws that concerns them. Still others cite directly the ability to reduce the number of outsiders who are allowed to come and work in the UK, although study after study shows that the country, and therefore these very people, benefit economically from their presence, indicating that it is purely the presence alone that disturbs them.

These reasons for wanting to leave the EU are, to my mind, clearly tribal / xenophobic in origin.

As you quite rightly note, London in particular is extremely multicultural. And London voted 60 / 40 to remain in the EU, which I would put forward as further evidence for what I am saying.

Whether xenophobia has increased or not is a moot point, because it has been innate in **** sapiens since we first emerged as a species, but I think there is no doubt that its expression has been more prevalent since the whole Brexit debate started.


----------



## Elles

Europe restricts immigration from outside Europe. It doesn’t want outsiders coming to live and work.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Europe restricts immigration from outside Europe. It doesn't want outsiders coming to live and work.


True, but no-one is suggesting that we are more xenophobic than any other Europeans. Their innate instincts are no different from ours. Though I haven't seen studies of the economic effects of migrant - and refugee - numbers on different European countries.

I will say, though, that in my post I omitted to mention those whose concern for pressure on some services led to their desire to reduce migrant numbers, which concern cannot be put down directly to xenophobia.


----------



## Elles

@Arnie83 did you see

King Arthur's Britain - The Truth Unearthed? I found it very interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bkvw8v


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Europe restricts immigration from outside Europe. It doesn't want outsiders coming to live and work.


You are right. I agree with that.

However TM's hostile environment policy will extend to EU citizens, those she can't touch at present, after Brexit. No wonder why she wants it so much.

They've already confirmed EU citizens won't be given priority over anyone else after Brexit, thus someone from, say France will probably have to go through the same protocol as someone from, say Brazil if they wish to live and work in the UK. The £50K minimum rules practically everyone out except perhaps millionaire business people.

But what many Brexit voters seem blind to is, if this is the way the UK intends to treat citizens from the EU after Brexit, they must expect similar themselves from the bloc they voted to exit from.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> @Arnie83 did you see
> 
> King Arthur's Britain - The Truth Unearthed? I found it very interesting.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bkvw8v


Looks fascinating; I will definitely check it out. Thank you.


----------



## Elles

I’m not xenophobic so far as I know. In my ideal world there would be far more equality, which doesn’t even exist between European countries let alone outside of it and moving to work would be a choice, not a necessity. 

It’s fine saying that immigration has economic benefits for (already wealthy) countries and the poor should be able to better themselves and their families, but again, within the Eu that’s only Eu countries. Tough if you happen to be a poor, but hardworking African. I’m sure the wealthy corporates would love to employ you on a pittance, but you ain’t allowed in.

Freedom of movement imho has a lot to answer for, not least some of the hard line racism, simply because overwhelmed areas become bitter about it. Yes we could have applied restrictions in the past when France, Germany and Spain did, but our government didn’t. Angela Merkel offered a free for all and look what happened there. It’s frustrating, but overcrowding, which is what it can boil down to, leads to bitterness and resentment, which feeds these attitudes. If we ignore it in current times with haves and have nots and extremism in religion, it will go some way to what we have now. It’s understandable and inevitable and very depressing.


----------



## Elles

By overwhelmed areas, I’m not talking racially btw, I’m talking about infrastructure, services, housing etc.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Don't read the Mail or Mail on Sunday.
> I think the media is hyping things alot and making it sound worse than it is actually going to be.


Good grief.



stockwellcat. said:


> If you are that worried that there will be a shortage of food etc Noushka try stocking up your cupboards with canned food (canned potatoes, canned beans etc) buy ration packs, buy pasta, pot noodles etc and be prepared. If it isn't as bad as the media is hyping then you have extra food.
> 
> You can also buy camping cookers, camping heaters (that run off gas bottles), power generstors and wind up camping radios if you are that worried about having no heating or power.
> 
> *Be Prepared!*
> 
> Honestly though. It is all hype and you are falling for it.


I'm not worried for myself. I'm worried for people living hand to mouth now. Millions of people scraping to get by, pushed into poverty, relying on foodbanks thanks to the calculated cruelty of the tories. Have you given them a second thought? How are they going to stockpile?

If we get a hard deal its going to be disastrous, if we crash out we KNOW its going to be much worse than that!. The government are stockpiling, councils are making preparations. You keep saying you know what you voted for. Imagine voting to make (all but the wealthiest) poorer and knowingly so?



KittenKong said:


> Pa
> 
> But Corbyn is using the 2016 referendum we know was based on cheating, gerrymandering and lies as gospel, playing the "Will of the people" tactic. By refusing to back a PV he's no better than May in that respect.
> 
> Corbyn disappoints me immensly. After a good start as Labour leader he now appears resigned to the fact he'll never get elected. After the excellent start at the Labour conference he completely ruined it by suggesting, rather than respecting the motion passed to support a PV, he went as far as suggesting he'd work with May in delivering her Brexit. Yes, they are conditions to that but why want to work with a deranged fascist? He should be fighting her all the way.
> 
> Then losing again would mean nothing to him. He'll still have his MPs salary and protest behind the back benches like he's always done.
> 
> For him, McDonnell and McCluskey to insist on no PV is no different from the hard right Tories saying the same.
> 
> It's hardly surprising half the population feel let down and ignored.
> 
> I despair, I really do.


Here is the point of view of Sunny Hundal, someone else I have a lot of respect for. Hope you can see this thread -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1043940167957057537 I dont think Corbyn is resigned to the fact he'll never get elected. I personally dont think labour will though, not with most of the media against a true socialist labour party and neoliberals, even in his own party , seeking to undermining him from the start of his leadership. I've heard many sensible people now actually say Corbyn is a communist lol. Yes leave won by cheating, gerrymandering, lying, but look at responses from leavers on here to evidence, facts and expert opinion KK. Its dismissed as scaremongering. People dont want to face reality, they just want to leave. Staunch leavers cannot be reasoned with - labour are in a real fix. That said I'm still leaning towards them supporting another referendum, but if they dont I would not turn my back on the party which delivers my only hope of stopping the badger cull, stopping fracking and addressing climate change. ( See my response to SWC below.)

New labour should never have adopted Thatcherism in the first place. And the lib dems in coalition with the tories have played their part in millions of people voting to leave. Austerity drove them to do so. And Corbyn has always opposed neoliberalism - austerity.

Like the tories, the lib dems certainly do not represent my values.












stockwellcat. said:


> I am sorry @noushka05, @Arnie83, @KittenKong, @havoc but I refuse to come around to your negative way of thinking over Brexit and never will. You have your opinions or should I say use the opinions of others and I have mine.


Just this.

Leavers still see the electorate as two distinct teams & the referendum as a victory for theirs. They don't need further information. Remainers see the electorate as a single team & the referendum result as a tragedy for everyone. They don't understand the ignoring of information.


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> Look at the comments on any online news. Any crime report invites horrendous comments.


Theres non so blind as those that will not see. (or summat like that :/)


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371299


Seen this response to her tweet KK?

*Theresa May*‏Verified account @theresa_may
_I want voters who may previously have thought of themselves as Labour supporters to look at my government afres_h. https://www.facebook.com/notes/theresa-may/i-want-voters-who-may-previously-have-thought-of-themselves-as-labour-supporters/2425840230766069/ …

Which bit?
The Windrush scandal?
The Universal Credit catastrophe?
Selling arms to Saudi Arabia?
Supporting anti-Semitic Hungarian dictators?
Record levels of child poverty, food bank use and homelessness?
Impending No Deal Brexit catastrophe?
Grenfell?
Breaking electoral law?

No? Okay, how about outing a whistleblower?
Your MPs meeting far-right white nationalists?
The 'hostile environment' policy?
Young Tories in 'F ck the NHS' shirts?
Decimating local council services?
Sacking 20,000 police officers?
Successive Home Sectaries insulting people?

Six-figure austerity-related deaths?
The nursing crisis?
The first strike by doctors in decades?
Your inability to field a London Mayor candidate who isn't massively racist?
A 22% decrease in firefighters since 2010?

No, really, stop me when I get one right.

(other people have been adding to it lol)


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Seen this response to her tweet KK?
> 
> *Theresa May*‏Verified account @theresa_may
> _I want voters who may previously have thought of themselves as Labour supporters to look at my government afres_h. https://www.facebook.com/notes/theresa-may/i-want-voters-who-may-previously-have-thought-of-themselves-as-labour-supporters/2425840230766069/ …
> 
> Which bit?
> The Windrush scandal?
> The Universal Credit catastrophe?
> Selling arms to Saudi Arabia?
> Supporting anti-Semitic Hungarian dictators?
> Record levels of child poverty, food bank use and homelessness?
> Impending No Deal Brexit catastrophe?
> Grenfell?
> Breaking electoral law?
> 
> No? Okay, how about outing a whistleblower?
> Your MPs meeting far-right white nationalists?
> The 'hostile environment' policy?
> Young Tories in 'F ck the NHS' shirts?
> Decimating local council services?
> Sacking 20,000 police officers?
> Successive Home Sectaries insulting people?
> 
> Six-figure austerity-related deaths?
> The nursing crisis?
> The first strike by doctors in decades?
> Your inability to field a London Mayor candidate who isn't massively racist?
> A 22% decrease in firefighters since 2010?
> 
> No, really, stop me when I get one right.
> 
> (other people have been adding to it lol)


She was deluded enough to believe the EU would sacrifice their own future and cave into her demands then screams they disrespect her for not doing so.

Will she do the same with the Labour Party and their members/votets if they refuse her demands too?!

Such a nice woman isn't she.

Trying her best to impersonate Margaret Thatcher here?

She can't even do that right.


----------



## Elles

One side blaming the Eu for all ills, doesn’t mean the other side should blame Theresa May for problems that arose decades ago from the policies of successive governments and financial institutions, when we were in the Eu.


----------



## havoc

Should we not blame her for her policies whilst a minister in office before she was PM? She set the seeds long before she reached her current position.


----------



## KittenKong

I said something on similar lines a few pages back....

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexi...itish-empire-commonwealth-vince-cable-2018-10


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> OK. I think I get it, well sort of!
> 
> So in your book white British boys aren't allowed or shouldn't be disadvantaged as that's reserved for boys of colour?
> 
> Although you might not realise it, what you're practicing is reverse discrimination.
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverse discriminatio
> 
> As you rightly say "What the **** has happened to this once great place to live in"?


Possibly no colour should have been mentioned, just disadvantaged children.
I do not understand why boys should be preferred - that is sexism.
No gender, no colour.

If any gender performed better- maybe more diligent?
Should be then be punished by higher entry threshold?

No one should have advantage because of their race or gender.
Unfortunately many parents fail to encourage and supervise their children and are happy to blame the teachers.

Though many schools are overcrowded and it is not the fault of immigrants but of the governments that were happy to have workforce but not happy to provide infrastructure.

Replace them by maybots and problem solved.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.


Prove it?
Or just assumptions?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well thanks for your comments this afternoon on what was discussed about xenophobia and racism.

I will now let you know my position on what had been said about this. 1) It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush. When I voted on the 23rd June 2016 I simply answered the question I was being asked. I am not xenophobic nor am I racist. 2) I don't like the amount of criticism leave voters have received and the abuse they have received for voting the way they did. We (those that bothered voting) simply answered a question on the ballot sheet and it seems that simple question has been blown out of proportion with some remain voters taking it personally.

In light of the wrongful attitude that some of the remain voters on here have I don't feel like taking this conversation on here any further. You are wrong by the way with what you think of leave voters. We aren't all xenophobic and racist. You do know xenophobia and racism is rife across Europe? I can give you some examples quite happily from personal experiences of when I lived in Europe. I cannot believe that you feel the way you do towards leave voters and that my pet loving acquaintances is how fractions are caused both on forums and in society. I am fed up with the blatant finger pointing as well. I will admit if I was wrong but feel I don't need to admit to nothing or apologise to no one and won't. I also don't need to explain anything to anyone as well. I have never heard of anyone having to explain why they voted the way the did at the ballot box, ever.

Think what you want to think of me, call me what you want but I am deflated at the moment with the whole topic.


----------



## noushka05

Oh my god look at the state of this. I know hes corrupt to the core, an untrustworthy duplicitous liar, probably the worst politician we've ever had - but is Johnson thick as a plank as well?. Hes an absolute joke. Who in their right mind would vote for him:Jawdrop

*Adam Bienkov*‏Verified account @AdamBienkov
Fantastic forensic demolition of Boris Johnson's bridge to Northern Ireland from one former offshore engineer.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I know you probably didn't mean it but your comment appeared to suggest those without UK passports should be excluded from Gibraltar.
> 
> As I understand it Cheeky has a UK passport so that exclusion wouldn't apply to her.


It is not that!!! I take a good swipe at our Stocky now and then so cannot really be offended, I am sure he meant that simply it's other than British tourists will have a problem to pass the frontier without visa as it would be British frontier with all the checks and what not. No more free movement.

No more EU tourism.

Or providing financial services or any other for EU ( think gaming companies).

Which would hit us very, very hard.

Problem is the use of airport too and the coastal waters.
Spain claims we have no waters at all even though everyone in the world has rights to 12 miles and we only claim three.
It is about fuel bunkering - their port in Algeciras wants to get rid of competition.

SWC just knows about economy as much as I know about Timbuktu. 
I know something, but just assumptions....


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Oh my god look at the state of this. I know hes corrupt to the core, an untrustworthy duplicitous liar, probably the worst politician we've ever had - but is Johnson thick as a plank as well?. Hes an absolute joke. Who in their right mind would vote for him:Jawdrop
> 
> *Adam Bienkov*‏Verified account @AdamBienkov
> Fantastic forensic demolition of Boris Johnson's bridge to Northern Ireland from one former offshore engineer.


Boris was never one for details. That's why the Irish border is no problem, akin to the Congestion Charge.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well thanks for your comments this afternoon on what was discussed about xenophobia and racism.
> 
> I will now let you know my position on what had been said about this. 1) It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush. When I voted on the 23rd June 2016 I simply answered the question I was being asked. I am not xenophobic nor am I racist. 2) I don't like the amount of criticism leave voters have received and the abuse they have received for voting the way they did. We (those that bothered voting) simply answered a question on the ballot sheet and it seems that simple question has been blown out of proportion with some remain voters taking it personally.
> 
> In light of the wrongful attitude that some of the remain voters on here have I don't feel like taking this conversation on here any further. You are wrong by the way with what you think of leave voters. We aren't all xenophobic and racist. You do know xenophobia and racism is rife across Europe? I can give you some examples quite happily from personal experiences of when I lived in Europe. I cannot believe that you feel the way you do towards leave voters and that my pet loving acquaintances is how fractions are caused both on forums and in society. I am fed up with the blatant finger pointing as well. I will admit if I was wrong but feel I don't need to admit to nothing or apologise to no one and won't. I also don't need to explain anything to anyone as well. I have never heard of anyone having to explain why they voted the way the did at the ballot box, ever.
> 
> Think what you want to think of me, call me what you want but I am deflated at the moment with the whole topic.


What comments? you mean this one?



stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think that some remainers know that they are being xenophobic towards British people and racist as well towards white people with the comments they come out with. Oh well at least we know now.





stockwellcat. said:


> It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush.


Nobody has.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Boris was never one for details. That's why the Irish border is no problem, akin to the Congestion Charge.


Nope, he never was. He just talks a load of [email protected] and hopes that people believe him.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well thanks for your comments this afternoon on what was discussed about xenophobia and racism.
> 
> I will now let you know my position on what had been said about this. 1) It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush. When I voted on the 23rd June 2016 I simply answered the question I was being asked. I am not xenophobic nor am I racist. 2) I don't like the amount of criticism leave voters have received and the abuse they have received for voting the way they did. We (those that bothered voting) simply answered a question on the ballot sheet and it seems that simple question has been blown out of proportion with some remain voters taking it personally.
> 
> In light of the wrongful attitude that some of the remain voters on here have I don't feel like taking this conversation on here any further. You are wrong by the way with what you think of leave voters. We aren't all xenophobic and racist. You do know xenophobia and racism is rife across Europe? I can give you some examples quite happily from personal experiences of when I lived in Europe. I cannot believe that you feel the way you do towards leave voters and that my pet loving acquaintances is how fractions are caused both on forums and in society. I am fed up with the blatant finger pointing as well. I will admit if I was wrong but feel I don't need to admit to nothing or apologise to no one and won't. I also don't need to explain anything to anyone as well. I have never heard of anyone having to explain why they voted the way the did at the ballot box, ever.
> 
> Think what you want to think of me, call me what you want but I am deflated at the moment with the whole topic.


I don't know if this is directed at me, but you will, I hope, have noticed that I didn't mention racism at all. I consider that a very different animal from xenophobia.

And of course only an idiot would suggest that the trait which I think all of us have to some extent or other was the reason why all leavers voted leave. There were many many reasons. Those that don't apply to you don't apply to you. No-one is accusing you, personally, of anything.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well thanks for your comments this afternoon on what was discussed about xenophobia and racism.
> 
> I will now let you know my position on what had been said about this. 1) It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush. When I voted on the 23rd June 2016 I simply answered the question I was being asked. I am not xenophobic nor am I racist. 2) I don't like the amount of criticism leave voters have received and the abuse they have received for voting the way they did. We (those that bothered voting) simply answered a question on the ballot sheet and it seems that simple question has been blown out of proportion with some remain voters taking it personally.
> 
> In light of the wrongful attitude that some of the remain voters on here have I don't feel like taking this conversation on here any further. You are wrong by the way with what you think of leave voters. We aren't all xenophobic and racist. You do know xenophobia and racism is rife across Europe? I can give you some examples quite happily from personal experiences of when I lived in Europe. I cannot believe that you feel the way you do towards leave voters and that my pet loving acquaintances is how fractions are caused both on forums and in society. I am fed up with the blatant finger pointing as well. I will admit if I was wrong but feel I don't need to admit to nothing or apologise to no one and won't. I also don't need to explain anything to anyone as well. I have never heard of anyone having to explain why they voted the way the did at the ballot box, ever.
> 
> Think what you want to think of me, call me what you want but I am deflated at the moment with the whole topic.


I am calling you deflated.
No one said Britain has monopoly on xenophobia or racism.
Leave voters also brush the other camp with the same " scaremongers" brush or even accuse them of racism in reverse or being unpatriotic.

But Brexit will hurt so many innocent people, people I don't know and those closest to my heart.
Brexit happens when democratic countries in the whole world should be united in protecting the freedom democracy stands for , that is way it is so tragic.

It plays to the hands of the likes of Putin, Trump, Erdogan or Kaczynski. They have full support for Brexit.
That is deeply disturbing.

I would feel really bad if my vote pleased those people, for Trump, Putin, Kaczynski, Erdogan stand for xenophobia, racism and oppression.
They have no respect for freedom or the people, women, gay, minorities... they think Brexit is the right way, they are sure it agrees with their values or/and will benefit them.

They see the EU as the evil power, the enemy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Oh my god look at the state of this. I know hes corrupt to the core, an untrustworthy duplicitous liar, probably the worst politician we've ever had - but is Johnson thick as a plank as well?. Hes an absolute joke. Who in their right mind would vote for him:Jawdrop
> 
> *Adam Bienkov*‏Verified account @AdamBienkov
> Fantastic forensic demolition of Boris Johnson's bridge to Northern Ireland from one former offshore engineer.


We have paltry 26 km to Morocco so maybe to solve our border problems we can build the bridge to Africa!!! Or even underwater tunnel to St. Michael Cave!
We can even dig up Atlantis on the way...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> We have paltry 26 km to Morocco so maybe to solve our border problems we can build the bridge to Africa!!! Or even underwater tunnel to St. Michael Cave!
> We can even dig up Atlantis on the way...


:Hilarious too funny


----------



## Elles

I see jaguar are now admitting that their problems are due to a lack of demand globally for their luxury diesel cars. It’s a good thing that people aren’t buying diesel cars. A bad thing that Jaguar didn’t see it coming years ago and prepare for it.  It’s not like it’s out of the blue. If anything they could blame the Eu not Brexit for it lol.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> 1) It upsets me to think that some remain voters seem to be tarring leave voters with the same brush


Didn't happen except in your head.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious too funny


Seriously though... if we took the zip wire , added the chairs like on ski slope, attached one end on Mons Calpe and the other on Sidi Musa it might work?

With cable car for the VIP?

You can see the other side...


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Possibly no colour should have been mentioned, just disadvantaged children.
> I do not understand why boys should be preferred - that is sexism.
> No gender, no colour.
> 
> If any gender performed better- maybe more diligent?
> Should be then be punished by higher entry threshold?
> 
> No one should have advantage because of their race or gender.
> Unfortunately many parents fail to encourage and supervise their children and are happy to blame the teachers.
> 
> Though many schools are overcrowded and it is not the fault of immigrants but of the governments that were happy to have workforce but not happy to provide infrastructure.
> 
> Replace them by maybots and problem solved.


Did you read the article properly because it was clearly about quoting figures published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency and to do so you have to give a breakdown which is exactly what Mr Hinds' was doing. Absolutely nothing racial about it!

IMO, The Independent deliberately chose that particular headline referencing white disadvantaged boys knowing perfectly well it was emotive and would be interpreted as racist, which it isn't because it's just stating a fact.

They could have equally well chosen a headline such as "The number of black students (in Higher Education) up by 11 percent" or "The number of Asian students (in Higher Education) up by 12 percent" but they didn't because neither would have provoked the same reaction.

Unfortunately there will always be gullible people who believe everything they read is the gospel truth, which it isn't because the way the press make their money is by using "poetic licence" to sell their newspapers.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Did you read the article properly because it was clearly about quoting figures published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency and to do so you have to give a breakdown which is exactly what Mr Hinds' was doing. Absolutely nothing racial about it!
> 
> IMO, The Independent deliberately chose that particular headline referencing white disadvantaged boys knowing perfectly well it was emotive and would be interpreted as racist, which it isn't because it's just stating a fact.
> 
> They could have equally well chosen a headline such as "The number of black students (in Higher Education) up by 11 percent" or "The number of Asian students (in Higher Education) up by 12 percent" but they didn't because neither would have provoked the same reaction.
> 
> Unfortunately there will always be gullible people who believe everything they read is the gospel truth, which it isn't because the way the press make their money is by using "poetic licence" to sell their newspapers.


I did refer to the post about " white boys".
Why boys.? ... the rest is general comment unrelated.

Also I really want that zip wire when the frontier closes.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 371343
> 
> Seriously though... if we took the zip wire , added the chairs like on ski slope, attached one end on Mons Calpe and the other on Sidi Musa it might work?
> 
> With cable car for the VIP?
> 
> You can see the other side...


Just saw this on Telesur and thought you might be interested

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/o...-the-Malvinas-in-Argentina-20171205-0008.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Just saw this on Telesur and thought you might be interested
> 
> https://www.telesurtv.net/english/o...-the-Malvinas-in-Argentina-20171205-0008.html


Very much so, Spainand Argentina always work together on this.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I did refer to the post about " white boys".
> Why boys.? ... the rest is general comment unrelated.
> 
> Also I really want that zip wire when the frontier closes.


Maybe because it only affects white boys, but not white girls. And as to the rest being general comment sorry I don't agree


----------



## Elles

Our trading partners and friends can’t wait to put the knife in can they lol. We haven’t left yet, negotiations are still ongoing, but we’re under attack from all sides. And you wonder why people wanted to brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Very much so, Spainand Argentina always work together on this.


I lived in Calahonda during the Falklands war and we could watch both Spanish and Gibraltar TV. Fascinating to listen first the News from Gib where the Brits were always winning the war, then switch to the Spanish News where we were told the Argentinians where beating the **** out of the British! On one occasion the Argentinians claimed to have shot down more Sea Harriers than the RAF actually had!

I've sailed into Gibraltar many times before the border was open to buy groceries and eat proper fish and chips. And when the border was open flew out of there which I hated, because you fly so close to the rock and I could never bear to look out of the window convinced we'd crash into it!


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.france24.com/en/2018100...ter-chequers-brexit-eu-citizens-rights-decree

https://www.france24.com/en/2018100...n-soreide-brexit-eu-single-market-russia-nato


----------



## KittenKong

Goodness me, can she not choose who to support politically?

So much for, "Home of the brave, land of the free"....

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...nstagram-post-endorsement-democrats-tennessee


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May was definitely funnier.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May danced better when in Africa.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May was definitely funnier.


He moves better though...
I want to move it, move it...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> He moves better though...
> I want to move it, move it...


Nah. Theresa May in Africa dancing is better.


----------



## Elles

I always fly to Malaga and drive. Gib just doesn’t look safe to fly to. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I always fly to Malaga and drive. Gib just doesn't look safe to fly to. :Hilarious


Ye,people of little faith!

But this is one of very acute Brexit issues - in bad weather our planes land in Malaga and coaches take passengers to Gib.
Excluded from EU sky we will have to divert them to Morocco and possibly in bad weather ferrying not feasible either.

That will seriously affect the price of flights and tourism.
Considering that we might only be able to go to UK without visa and flights might not be profitable - who wants emergency landing in Africa?
That is a worry.
I always fly to UK from Gibraltar.
Same back. Bit bumpy landing at times, but used to it.:Smug

The view is magical though, you fly next to the Rock and land on a strip of land the size of a post stamp - or so it looks from above.
The only runway in the world with a road through it, people, cars, bikes going across... traffic is stopped for the plane to land obviously...


----------



## Elles

We aren’t going to be excluded from Eu sky. Nor will European planes be prevented from flying to the busiest airport in the world. That will be sorted out long before we get any kind of Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Our trading partners and friends can't wait to put the knife in can they lol. We haven't left yet, negotiations are still ongoing, but we're under attack from all sides. And you wonder why people wanted to brexit.


What prompted this comment, Elles?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> We aren't going to be excluded from Eu sky. Nor will European planes be prevented from flying to the busiest airport in the world. That will be sorted out long before we get any kind of Brexit.


I think you're right, so long as there is at least some time when everyone knows we are actually leaving without a deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> What prompted this comment, Elles?


I hope that you know it for sure.. the comments in Spanish press... yes I know, they always do that...but seems they are quite adamant about the use of Malaga airport and the sky...


----------



## KittenKong

Well, you can't blame them.
Wasn't compensation down to EU regulation?















https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/thomas-cook-wont-compensate-travellers-15241220


----------



## Elles

It’s not the Ten Commandments. It’s a bunch of powerful people getting together and signing bits of paper. If they want to be able to fly across Europe and the U.K. after Brexit, they’ll change whatever might say we can’t, so that we can. The French and German governments aren’t going to happy if it causes disruption there either and they pay the Eu to represent them. 

Did anyone read the article? It says that Thomas Cook want to reassure people that if their flights or package holidays are cancelled they will get their money back and Thomas Cook will make sure that no one is left stranded. The T&C just show that if the air space isn’t sorted out after brexit, they won’t offer additional compensation for any flights cancelled due to brexit as it’s beyond their control. Fair enough.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> What prompted this comment, Elles?


All the talk about Spain wanting to take over Gibraltar, the Eu backing them and Spain joining up with Argentina over the Falklands again. Doesn't it all prove that the Eu is a clique, not out for world peace, but rather world domination?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> All the talk about Spain wanting to take over Gibraltar, the Eu backing them and Spain joining up with Argentina over the Falklands again. *Doesn't it all prove that the Eu is a clique, not out for world peace, but rather world domination*?


:Woot I've never heard so much rubbish, words almost fail me.:Jawdrop


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Did anyone read the article? It says that Thomas Cook want to reassure people that if their flights or package holidays are cancelled they will get their money back and Thomas Cook will make sure that no one is left stranded. The T&C just show that if the air space isn't sorted out after brexit, they won't offer additional compensation for any flights cancelled due to brexit as it's beyond their control. Fair enough.


They wouldn't want to risk putting themselves out of business by not pledging that would they?!

Getting a refund is one thing, but the issue here is compensation.

As EU law will no longer apply firms such as Thomas Cook wouldn't be under any legal obligation to compensate UK passengers.

The UK government could, of course retain that if they choose to, but seeing their shocking incompetence in handling the own mess they created it'll be one of the many oversights probably.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I lived in Calahonda during the Falklands war and we could watch both Spanish and Gibraltar TV. Fascinating to listen first the News from Gib where the Brits were always winning the war, then switch to the Spanish News where we were told the Argentinians where beating the **** out of the British!


This absolutely proves the media is seriously biased! The UK tv news (the BBC and ITN briefly merged as, "British Television News" for the duration).

They bring the "News" THEY wanted you to see.

Nothing's changed, especially with the BBC.


----------



## StormyThai

KittenKong said:


> During the 1982 World Cup matches featuring Argentina were banned from British television


Sorry to be a pain but could you show where Argentina were banned from British TV?
I've had a look and whilst the coverage wasn't as good as previous or future years, I can't find anywhere that shows it was because the games were banned from TV


----------



## Jesthar

StormyThai said:


> Sorry to be a pain but could you show where Argentina were banned from British TV?
> I've had a look and whilst the coverage wasn't as good as previous or future years, I can't find anywhere that shows it was because the games were banned from TV


"Banned" is probably slightly too strong a word, but I do know ITV refused to show the opening ceremony and the opening match, despite having the rights, due to the Falklands war. They may have regretted that later, as Argentina were beaten by Belgium, which the British public would probably have enjoyed watching!


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted. Correction below.


----------



## KittenKong

StormyThai said:


> Sorry to be a pain but could you show where Argentina were banned from British TV?
> I've had a look and whilst the coverage wasn't as good as previous or future years, I can't find anywhere that shows it was because the games were banned from TV


Well, I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong. I'll amend the post accordingly.

Seems at least ITV showed some of the matches after all.

I was probably confused by the refusal to show the opening ceremony as Jesthar mentioned.

I do remember seeing live matches featuring Argentina on Spanish tv though when the BBC and ITV were showing others.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> All the talk about Spain wanting to take over Gibraltar, the Eu backing them and Spain joining up with Argentina over the Falklands again. Doesn't it all prove that the Eu is a clique, not out for world peace, but rather world domination?


Argentina isn't in the EU so that can be discounted right away.

There's been conflict over the "ownership" of Gibraltar between Spain and England many years before they became EEC members.

As with Ireland, both sectors being EU members has actually preserved the peace in the main.

Now that the UK has chosen to leave the EU it was inevitable this conflict has arisen again.

The UK will become the third country. As Spain remains in the EU it's only right they'll be on Spain's side.

Why care two hoots about the UK? The government chose to leave after all.

Then, talk of using the resolve Thatcher took with the Falklands. The likely ending of the Good Friday agreement.

Completely avoidable, but that's Brexit.


----------



## Elles

The people of Gibraltar have their own government and don’t want to be part of Spain. Are there any other takeovers by Eu member countries the Eu should back? Perhaps France would like the Channel Islands?


----------



## StormyThai

KittenKong said:


> Well, I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong. I'll amend the post accordingly.


Thanks 
I only queried it because I remember the Falklands being a contention but couldn't remember anything being banned


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Argentina isn't in the EU so that can be discounted right away.
> 
> There's been conflict over the "ownership" of Gibraltar between Spain and England many years before they became EEC members.
> 
> As with Ireland, both sectors being EU members has actually preserved the peace in the main.
> 
> Now that the UK has chosen to leave the EU it was inevitable this conflict has arisen again.
> 
> The UK will become the third country. As Spain remains in the EU it's only right they'll be on Spain's side.
> 
> Why care two hoots about the UK? The government chose to leave after all.
> 
> Then, talk of using the resolve Thatcher took with the Falklands. The likely ending of the Good Friday agreement.
> 
> Completely avoidable, but that's Brexit.


An article in El Pais on the subject from September

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/09/21/inenglish/1537521278_926151.html

and another one from yesterday's Express

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...reignty-Spain-UK-EU-no-deal-withdrawal-latest


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> The people of Gibraltar have their own government and don't want to be part of Spain. Are there any other takeovers by Eu member countries the Eu should back? Perhaps France would like the Channel Islands?


I don't think the EU would back a 'takeover' as such, nor do I think that is what is being suggested.

However, if the border tensions between Spain and Gibraltar escalate, then as Spain are part of the EU and Gibraltar will no longer be, they will not be inclined to intervene to rein in Spain as they would currently need to consider doing if Spain push the common tactics of artificial delaying and harrassment of travellers between Spain and Gibraltar to levels that would currently be considered unacceptable between EU countries. Post Brexit, I would strongly expect their stance to be that Spain can do whatever they like to control external borders short of breaking international law.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The people of Gibraltar have their own government and don't want to be part of Spain. Are there any other takeovers by Eu member countries the Eu should back? Perhaps France would like the Channel Islands?


Who said anything about the EU backing a colony taking over an area occupied by a former member? I don't think they would actively encourage France to take over the Channel Islands for example!

What I did mean is, should Spain re ignite their long term claim over Gibraltar it's only right the EU takes the Spanish point of view over the UK, as the UK will no longer be part of them.

The EU cannot possibly be blamed for a dispute that's existed for decades.

Bur at least with two factors being EU members it gave stability. A member state would be most unlikely get into conflict with another.

Think that might have been significant in over 90% of Gibraltar citizens voting remain in the 2016 "referendum"!

Like the threat to the GF agreement in Ireland the situation would not have arisen again had it not been for Brexit.


----------



## Elles

I don’t agree. The Eu should take Gibraltar’s point of view and certainly shouldn’t back Spain if it wants shared rule, or claims Gibraltar.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Who said anything about the EU backing a colony taking over an area occupied by a former member? I don't think they would actively encourage France to take over the Channel Islands for example!
> 
> What I did mean is, should Spain re ignite their long term claim over Gibraltar it's only right the EU takes the Spanish point of view over the UK, as the UK will no longer be part of them.
> 
> The EU cannot possibly be blamed for a dispute that's existed for decades.
> 
> Bur at least with two factors being EU members it gave stability. A member state would be most unlikely get into conflict with another.
> 
> Think that might have been significant in over 90% of Gibraltar citizens voting remain in the 2016 "referendum"!
> 
> Like the threat to the GF agreement in Ireland the situation would not have arisen again had it not been for Brexit.


Although not many people may realise it but the French Overseas Territories, for example La Reunion in the Indian Ocean and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean to name a few are Departments of mainland France and as such fall under the EU. Plus they are French citizens holding French passports which gives them the right to free movement just like any other EU citizens. The same applies to an extent to the Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch overseas territories

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union

You also might like to listen to this interview which is extremely interesting and informative

https://monocle.com/radio/shows/the-foreign-desk/244/


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I don't agree. The Eu should take Gibraltar's point of view and certainly shouldn't back Spain if it wants shared rule, or claims Gibraltar.


Why? Gibraltar won't be in the EU any more, and I don't think the EU would want to set a precedent of supporting non-member states over it's member states. But again, I don't think we're talking about any kind of direct hostile action, we're talking more about Spain making day-to-day life on Gibraltar increasingly difficult, potentially to the point of unsustainability.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that unless Spain went to extremes, they'd just leave them to get on with it. They may offer to facilitate negotiations, or reprimand Spain if things really hit the fan, but other than that then unless freedom of movement is agreed they will probably just say that it's up to Spain how strictly they want to implement their border with a non-EU country as long as it complies with international law.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I don't agree. The Eu should take Gibraltar's point of view and certainly shouldn't back Spain if it wants shared rule, or claims Gibraltar.


But Gibraltar being a British colony will soon no longer be in the EU on Theresa May's instance, just as NI and Scotland are being taken out against the will of their people and Government. I don't know what the Gibraltar government stance is but the Scottish Government are certainly not in favour of being taken out of the EU against its wishes.

If May was a remotely reasonable person she would have recognised this and respected the wishes of those Remain areas.

It's tough on the people, but the blame should be placed firmly on the shoulders of Theresa May on her instance the UK and indeed Gibraltar must leave with the rest.

Yes, the EU should ideally take the Gibraltar government point of view, assuming they're against Brexit.

It's Theresa May who's stopping them, not the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> All the talk about Spain wanting to take over Gibraltar, the Eu backing them and Spain joining up with Argentina over the Falklands again. Doesn't it all prove that the Eu is a clique, not out for world peace, but rather world domination?


After due consideration I conclude; No. The issue of post-Brexit Gibraltar doesn't prove that the EU is seeking world domination!

I expect it to be settled amicably.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> After due consideration I conclude; No. The issue of post-Brexit Gibraltar doesn't prove that the EU is seeking world domination!
> 
> I expect it to be settled amicably.


So do I. I don't expect the Eu to be backing Spain if it attempts to take over Gibraltar against its peoples' wishes regardless of who is or isn't in the Eu. To hear the talk though, it sounds as though some think it should and is to be expected as nasty old Britain left the Eu and deserves everything it gets kind of thing. If they were to back Spain in a takeover of a territory that doesn't belong to them and whose people don't want to be taken over, then it could be a sign that the Eu is out for European domination, at least. Imho it would be entirely the wrong thing to do and as far from 'to be expected' as you can get.

There may be some initial awkwardness surrounding the border, which would be nothing new, but if sense prevails it should be sorted out pretty quickly.


----------



## noushka05

Brian Cox
Verified account
@ProfBrianCox



_An excellent editorial. It is up to us to vote for politicians who will work together in the interests of the planet. If you vote for idiots, you are an idiot. The retreat into myopic nationalism we've seen since 2016 must end, otherwise we're heading for disaster, togethe_r


*The Guardian view on climate change: a global emergency*
Editorial
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-climate-change-a-global-emergency?CMP=twt_gu

It is not the direct effects of climate change alone but their indirect effects on the political and economic structures of the world that make it a genuinely existential threat. As individuals in the rich world, we should all eat less meat and use less fossil-fuel energy. But individual action will never be enough. We must also work to strengthen the kind of political structures that will enable, and if needed compel, the cooperation that is the only alternative to destructive anarchy

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## Magyarmum

*NEWS*
*Britain's overseas territories brace for Brexit*

Residents of the British territory Anguilla didn't get a say in Brexit, but they will lose their EU passports come March 29 next year. The territory relies heavily on imports that come mostly via the EU.

As UK Prime Minister Theresa May continues to hash out a Brexit deal with the EU, Britain's overseas territories are waiting anxiously to see how the divorce from the bloc will affect them.

Anguilla, one of Britain's six territories in the Caribbean, is located some 6,500 kilometers (4,039 miles) from Britain and relies heavily on imports - even for its drinking water.

_Read more:_ EU Customs Union, Single Market, Brexit - What you need to know

Most of the goods come in through the EU, via a port just 15 minutes away on the French island of Saint Martin.

"This port is the life vest of Anguilla," Port Manager Roland J Hodge told DW. "This is the only cargo port, so if for whatever reason the port closes down, Anguilla in itself just might close down."









Anguilla 'an afterthought'

If London fails to secure a good Brexit deal, Anguilla's residents are worried they will be among the biggest losers. The territory's dependency on its ties with the EU means most residents would have chosen to stay in the bloc.

But they were not given a vote.

_Read more:_ Did Angela Merkel approve Theresa May's Brexit plan in advance?

Anguilla's Prime Minister Victor Banks said he thinks Anguilla is an "afterthought" of the British government.

"When I travel to the United Kingdom, I would say 90 percent of the people I talk to, who are British, don't have a clue that there is a place called Anguilla," Banks told DW. "So I really think we are an afterthought. I don't think that we are big on the agenda for the British government as one of the issues that they speak about."

*Brexit: The curse of the Caribbean*
Residents to lose EU passports

Local radio host DJ Hammer said he was angry Anguilla did not have a say over Brexit. He is among some 15,000 islanders who are set to lose their EU passports after March 29 next year.

"We find it insulting because we'll be affected directly. The Anguilla-Saint Martin border has been a soft border for years and we are concerned that this Brexit situation might impact that in a negative [way]."

_Read more:_ Opinion: Donald Trump's coordinated assault on Theresa May's Brexit plans

Other Anguillans feel similarly. "Anguillians should've had the chance to participate in the Brexit vote and that no other people should decide Anguillans' fate," one local man told DW. "But then Britain has been increasing its micromanagement of Anguilla," he added.

Another man asked: "Is it fair to us? That means we have no say, because if you take the economy of Anguilla, if you take the budget, it has to be approved by the UK. So we are just puppets in the whole thing."

Independence movement

The EU plays a significant role in Anguilla. Hurricane Irma devastated the tiny territory last September and many homes still lie in ruins, and with the state having no money to spare, the planned reconstruction is funded by the EU.

The EU is also Anguilla's largest provider of development aid, with much of the money earmarked for education. But for the moment it is unclear whether London will step in to help after Brexit.

The frustration of the situation has seen some Anguillans make calls for independence.

"As an independent country, we are much better off," DJ Hammer said. "You'll be able to fend for yourself, because the British government relationship with Anguilla as it stands now, I am not sure we are getting a fair shake."


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Elles

I’m one who knew nothing about Anguilla. So why didn’t Remain bring it up?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The people of Gibraltar have their own government


Try telling that to Theresa May!

She has no respect for the people of Scotland, nor their democratically elected government either.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Try telling that to Theresa May!
> 
> She has no respect for the people of Scotland, nor their democratically elected government either.


No one from Gibraltar was invited to Brussels to discuss Gibraltar.


----------



## Arnie83

This isn't, and never has been, about Scotland, or Gibraltar, or Anguilla or Northern Ireland and the GFA, or even England for that matter. It's about the Tory party.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> No one from Gibraltar was invited to Brussels to discuss Gibraltar.


Even if they were do you think Theresa May would let them participate?

Where do the Gibraltar government stand over Brexit? We know the DUP in NI back it where the SNP doesn't in those respective countries.

After all, she's refused to allow Scotland any say in the negotiations.

Seems she's too het up about the Irish border issue to worry about anywhere else.

Useless and pathetic wannabe dictator for her empire.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Argentina isn't in the EU so that can be discounted right away.
> 
> There's been conflict over the "ownership" of Gibraltar between Spain and England many years before they became EEC members.
> 
> As with Ireland, both sectors being EU members has actually preserved the peace in the main.
> 
> Now that the UK has chosen to leave the EU it was inevitable this conflict has arisen again.
> 
> The UK will become the third country. As Spain remains in the EU it's only right they'll be on Spain's side.
> 
> Why care two hoots about the UK? The government chose to leave after all.
> 
> Then, talk of using the resolve Thatcher took with the Falklands. The likely ending of the Good Friday agreement.
> 
> Completely avoidable, but that's Brexit.


Gibraltar was traded to Britain in Treaty of Utrecht among global swaps of lands


KittenKong said:


> Even if they were do you think Theresa May would let them participate?
> 
> Where do the Gibraltar government stand over Brexit? We know the DUP in NI back it where the SNP doesn't in those respective countries.
> 
> After all, she's refused to allow Scotland any say in the negotiations.
> 
> Seems she's too het up about the Irish border issue to worry about anywhere else.
> 
> Useless and pathetic wannabe dictator for her empire.


So when 96% voters backed Remain where our government stands?

They are as excluded from the talks as you and me...
Obviously any chance of staying in Single Market and Custom Union will be welcomed.
Any form of joint sovereignty will not be accepted though.

We do not trust Spain, mind you since Napoleon was beaten in Salamanca Spain loved Britain and Gibraltar till Franco came .
So that there always was a problem is another Spanish propaganda lie. 
Well over a hundred years of good neighbours.
To boot - Moors has Gibraltar for 700 years, Brits for 314 years, Spanish interval about 250 years...
Neanderthals 50- 20 thousands years...


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar was traded to Britain in Treaty of Utrecht among global swaps of lands
> 
> So when 96% voters backed Remain where our government stands?
> 
> They are as excluded from the talks as you and me...
> Obviously any chance of staying in Single Market and Custom Union will be welcomed.
> Any form of joint sovereignty will not be accepted though.
> 
> We do not trust Spain, mind you since Napoleon was beaten in Salamanca Spain loved Britain and Gibraltar till Franco came .
> So that there always was a problem is another Spanish propaganda lie.
> Well over a hundred years of good neighbours.
> To boot - Moors has Gibraltar for 700 years, Brits for 314 years, Spanish interval about 250 years...
> Neanderthals 50- 20 thousands years...


I think we should give it back to the Neanderthals.

Come to think of it, maybe we should give the whole of Europe back to them, when you look at the mess we've made of it!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> We do not trust Spain, mind you since Napoleon was beaten in Salamanca Spain loved Britain and Gibraltar till Franco came .
> So that there always was a problem is another Spanish propaganda lie.
> Well over a hundred years of good neighbours.
> To boot - Moors has Gibraltar for 700 years, Brits for 314 years, Spanish interval about 250 years...
> Neanderthals 50- 20 thousands years...


Adding another point of view to the debate, not my own, it could be argued to judge Spain from its past would be akin to not trusting Germany due to Hitler and the Nazis and France with Napoleon.

Indeed some appear to share that point of view re France and Germany.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Adding another point of view to the debate, not my own, it could be argued to judge Spain from its past would be akin to not trusting Germany due to Hitler and the Nazis and France with Napoleon.
> 
> Indeed some appear to share that point of view re France and Germany.


Rajoy? Catalonia? Arresting their legal representatives? How long ago? Months?
Not ages ago...
Spanish propaganda uses Gibraltar as a diversion, always!
We are responsible for smuggling ( though most smugglers are Spanish) pollution ( not their old refineries), unemployment!!! Yes, they protest at our frontier that their police is paid less than ours!!!
We were even blamed for RISING sea level and beach erosion!!!
Spanish people are convinced we are a huuuge hostile country trying to destroy them!!!
When I tell them the real size of Gibraltar they cannot believe it!!!
Some less educated think it is Spanish already... my OH disabused them gently "well not really, but many Spaniards come to work here"...
Attitude could be bad at times, more locally than further away...
Hipster Tarifa has no problem, in Algeciras they will spray your car...

Saddest moment when my then 3 y old left the ball on the grass and some men picked it up. Small ball. I asked them to give it back.
Picnic area, no one else , our car has Gib plates...
Men laughed , my little boy was crying...
Men took the little blue ball and walked away.
My son since then is very reluctant to go to Spain or speak Spanish.
This is how xenophobia is spread...
Spain is since Franco a split country.
Extreme right anti gay, anti Roma, anti Gibraltar, pro corrida and similar is still a strong current there.
Do not underestimate them.
Neofrankists are growing rather than diminishing.

On another note ... once we had a picnic next to PSOE ( socialists) rally and they just invited us to the party, Spanish vets are heroic and most Spanish people who came to work here admit that they changed their views on Gibraltar.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Rajoy? Catalonia? Arresting their legal representatives? How long ago? Months?
> Not ages ago...
> Spanish propaganda uses Gibraltar as a diversion, always!
> We are responsible for smuggling ( though most smugglers are Spanish) pollution ( not their old refineries), unemployment!!! Yes, they protest at our frontier that their police is paid less than ours!!!
> We were even blamed for RISING sea level and beach erosion!!!
> Spanish people are convinced we are a huuuge hostile country trying to destroy them!!!
> When I tell them the real size of Gibraltar they cannot believe it!!!
> Some less educated think it is Spanish already... my OH disabused them gently "well not really, but many Spaniards come to work here"...
> Attitude could be bad at times, more locally than further away...
> Hipster Tarifa has no problem, in Algeciras they will spray your car...
> 
> Saddest moment when my then 3 y old left the ball on the grass and some men picked it up. Small ball. I asked them to give it back.
> Picnic area, no one else , our car has Gib plates...
> Men laughed , my little boy was crying...
> Men took the little blue ball and walked away.
> My son since then is very reluctant to go to Spain or speak Spanish.
> This is how xenophobia is spread...
> Spain is since Franco a split country.
> Extreme right anti gay, anti Roma, anti Gibraltar, pro corrida and similar is still a strong current there.
> Do not underestimate them.
> Neofrankists are growing rather than diminishing.
> 
> On another note ... once we had a picnic next to PSOE ( socialists) rally and they just invited us to the party, Spanish vets are heroic and most Spanish people who came to work here admit that they changed their views on Gibraltar.


I wonder what Theresa May would do if Scots voted for independence without her say so?

Yes, Cantona was appalling, but I'm afraid the UK under Theresa May is no longer the place it used to be.

She said she would preserve her "precious union". At what lengths to how she would do that remains to be seen.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I wonder what Theresa May would do if Scots voted for independence without her say so?
> 
> Yes, Cantona was appalling, but I'm afraid the UK under Theresa May is no longer the place it used to be.
> 
> She said she would preserve her "precious union". At what lengths to how she would do that remains to be seen.


Spanish way? Dragging women by their hair and throwing them down the stairs because they went to vote for independence? Like Spanish police did. Beating up peaceful people who just came to vote. Destroying ballot papers? Like they did. Arresting Scottish government?
Wonder.
This is why they don't want us at negotiating table.
None of them wants to admit we have right to self determination. Basic human right. 
If we do, then so do Basks, Scots, Catalonians or Nothern Ireland.

Neither extreme right or extreme left cares much about human rights I am afraid.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 371539


That's rather a silly meme seeing Theresa May is abiding to her Chequers plan which you've argued yourself will keep the UK tied to the EU except for our FOM of course.

The EU or Theresa May? I know who I'd prefer!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Rajoy? Catalonia? Arresting their legal representatives? How long ago? Months?
> Not ages ago...
> Spanish propaganda uses Gibraltar as a diversion, always!
> We are responsible for smuggling ( though most smugglers are Spanish) pollution ( not their old refineries), unemployment!!! Yes, they protest at our frontier that their police is paid less than ours!!!
> We were even blamed for RISING sea level and beach erosion!!!
> *Spanish people are convinced we are a huuuge hostile country trying to destroy them!!!
> When I tell them the real size of Gibraltar they cannot believe it!!!
> Some less educated think it is Spanish already..*. my OH disabused them gently "well not really, but many Spaniards come to work here"...
> Attitude could be bad at times, more locally than further away...
> Hipster Tarifa has no problem, in Algeciras they will spray your car...
> 
> Saddest moment when my then 3 y old left the ball on the grass and some men picked it up. Small ball. I asked them to give it back.
> Picnic area, no one else , our car has Gib plates...
> Men laughed , my little boy was crying...
> Men took the little blue ball and walked away.
> My son since then is very reluctant to go to Spain or speak Spanish.
> This is how xenophobia is spread...
> Spain is since Franco a split country.
> Extreme right anti gay, anti Roma, anti Gibraltar, pro corrida and similar is still a strong current there.
> Do not underestimate them.
> Neofrankists are growing rather than diminishing.
> 
> On another note ... once we had a picnic next to PSOE ( socialists) rally and they just invited us to the party, Spanish vets are heroic and most Spanish people who came to work here admit that they changed their views on Gibraltar.


Ignorance of the facts allows distorted perceptions to take root.

Something of which the politicians should take note before they call referendums and claim it's democracy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Ignorance of the facts allows distorted perceptions to take root.
> 
> Something of which the politicians should take note before they call referendums and claim it's democracy.


Do you mean referendum on self determination? Like Gibraltar 2002?

I think people can determine whether they feel British or Spanish.
Problem starts when you offer " the mystery box" like on TV show and it's wrapped in shiny national flag...

Without explanation what is inside.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That's rather a silly meme seeing Theresa May is abiding to her Chequers plan which you've argued yourself will keep the UK tied to the EU except for our FOM of course.
> 
> The EU or Theresa May? I know who I'd prefer!




The Telegraph published it last night.

It's a Joke! Nicola Sturgeon crying freedom from the UK to be bound to EU regulations as she wants Scotland to remain in the EU.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> That's rather a silly meme


Heaven forfend that a silly meme be posted.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The Telegraph published it last night.
> 
> It's a Joke! Nicola Sturgeon crying freedom from the UK to be bound to EU regulations as she wants Scotland to remain in the EU.


EU regulations are designed to protect our health, workers, the environment & so on. The EU gives us protection from _our own_ government. Haven't you worked out the ideology of the tories yet SWC? The key brexiteers are pushing for a hard brexit or no deal, so they can scrap remaining protections, further deregulate corporate entities and double down on their neoliberal agenda which is destroying this country (and the living planet).. Nicola isn't going against the interests of her country but by supporting right wing extremists - you are SWC.

Nicola knows that brexit is nothing more than a right wing power grab.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Do you mean referendum on self determination? Like Gibraltar 2002?
> 
> I think people can determine whether they feel British or Spanish.
> Problem starts when you offer " the mystery box" like on TV show and it's wrapped in shiny national flag...
> 
> Without explanation what is inside.


No, I was thinking about a different, more recent referendum!

Self-determination is an interesting topic. You say it is a basic human right, but it can't be the right of an individual. So when does it qualify as a right to be respected?

Big topic, though, so probably not for here!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


>


That is NOT what Rees-Mogg said! Your journalist friend has conveniently "doctored" the quote to make it provocative and not only that the quote was from *December 6 the 2016* - nearly two years ago so hardly relevant with all that's gone on since

What he ACTUALLY said was and I quote "Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on IMPORTED PRODUCTS AFTER IT LEAVES THE EU"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> EU regulations are designed to protect our health, workers, the environment & so on. The EU gives us protection from _our own_ government. Haven't you worked out the ideology of the tories yet SWC? The key brexiteers are pushing for a hard brexit or no deal, so they can scrap remaining protections, further deregulate corporate entities and double down on their neoliberal agenda which is destroying this country (and the living planet).. Nicola isn't going against the interests of her country but by supporting right wing extremists - you are SWC.
> 
> Nicola knows that brexit is nothing more than a right wing power grab.


Rees-Mogg's favourite economist, Minford, explains how we can benefit from Brexit.

From The Telegraph:
"Farmers, as well as car manufacturers, would suffer from lower exports to the EU, Minford said. But the economy as a whole would benefit from being able to scrap EU regulation on workers' rights and climate change, and focus on services where it had a competitive advantage, he added."​
And there is the ideological plan of the right wing Tories, in a nutshell.

I repeatedly hear that we knew what we were voting for. Was that it?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> What he ACTUALLY said was and I quote "Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on IMPORTED PRODUCTS AFTER IT LEAVES THE EU"


How is that any better?

Are we supposed to allow our consumers to buy products that have been made without environmental or safety standards attached to their production, but hamper our own manufacturers by enforcing higher standards? Or does it become a free-for-all where we just do what the hell we want, and caveat emptor?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> No, I was thinking about a different, more recent referendum!
> 
> Self-determination is an interesting topic. You say it is a basic human right, but it can't be the right of an individual. So when does it qualify as a right to be respected?
> 
> Big topic, though, so probably not for here!


And a very interesting one not only about self determination but about more general personal rights!

Did you know for example it is a basic human right as native English speaker, that if you have to appear in court in a country where English is not the first language you are within your right to demand a qualified, court accredited translator. If one is not provided you're within your right to refuse to answer any questions.

You might find this interesting!

http://www.unpo.org/article/4957


----------



## stockwellcat.

I still think that the whole approach to the negotiations is wrong. The EU and UK should have done the negotiations away from media and public view behind closed doors and the deal announced publically if one was made. I still believe that the EU leaders thrive on drama and the media are stoking fear amount the people that voted remain.

I hope that any future negotiations the UK does after we have left the EU is done behind closed doors?


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> I still think that the whole approach to the negotiations is wrong. The EU and UK should have done the negotiations away from media and public view behind closed doors and the deal announced publically if one was made. I still believe that the EU leaders thrive on drama and the media are stoking fear amount the people that voted remain.
> 
> I hope that any future negotiations the UK does after we have left the EU is done behind closed doors?


It is being done behind closed doors.....the press are just being fed


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> How is that any better?
> 
> Are we supposed to allow our consumers to buy products that have been made without environmental or safety standards attached to their production, but hamper our own manufacturers by enforcing higher standards? Or does it become a free-for-all where we just do what the hell we want, and caveat emptor?


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

All I was trying to point out was that because the oke that posted the quote omitted part of the sentence, he effectively turned it into something emotive in order to get a reaction!

Earlier on this thread both I and another poster were discussing how the media use "poetic licence" for lack of a better description, to attract and keep their readers - and this was a another example.

Rees-Mogg and what he said was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> That is NOT what Rees-Mogg said! Your journalist friend has conveniently "doctored" the quote to make it provocative and not only that the quote was from *December 6 the 2016* - nearly two years ago so hardly relevant with all that's gone on since
> 
> What he ACTUALLY said was and I quote "Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on IMPORTED PRODUCTS AFTER IT LEAVES THE EU"
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html


Who is my journalist friend?  Of course its relevant. What has the time lapse got to do with anything, when his ideology is exactly the same today? I heard what he said. Within the EU we share the same alignment (because of those regulations!). Outside the EU we wont! The brextremists have made it crystal clear they want us out of the EU so they have a bonfire with those regulations. I'm astounded you dont know that. Just look at the message on SWCs Sturgeon cartoon.

Even if you just accept what he says literally on that video, dont imported emissions count? Don't they also drive climate change & environmental degradation? Are you happy that we'll be able to "_slash environmental and safety regulations on IMPORTED PRODUCTS AFTER IT LEAVES THE EU"?? _How can we have a hope in hells chance of preventing runaway climate breakdown

Maybe you don't realise that we are just TWELVE YEARS away from global environmental catastrophe?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Just look at the message on SWCs Sturgeon cartoon.


Not my cartoon. Telegraph newspapers (Premium article). Plus the artist did sign it Blower.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...xit-almost-battle-britain-has-just-begun/amp/


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> It is being done behind closed doors.....the press are just being fed


I stand corrected and apologise.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Maybe you don't realise that we are just TWELVE YEARS away from global environmental catastrophe?


To many people on the planet.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I still think that the whole approach to the negotiations is wrong. The EU and UK should have done the negotiations away from media and public view behind closed doors and the deal announced publically if one was made. I still believe that the EU leaders thrive on drama and the media are stoking fear amount the people that voted remain.
> 
> I hope that any future negotiations the UK does after we have left the EU is done behind closed doors?


Most of the 'negotiation' seems to be going on very publicly within the Tory party!

As for the rest, I'm not sure. May must surely report to Parliament during the 2 years of negotiation rather than just coming back at the end, revealing result, and saying "Here you go; take it or leave it." So it would regularly have been made public anyway.

Perhaps they'll do it differently next time!


----------



## KittenKong

A Royal Family with a backbone.
Good for them!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...xander-bemoans-brexit-ahead-of-uk-state-visit


----------



## stockwellcat.

The rest of the article is here:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 371560
> 
> View attachment 371563
> 
> 
> The rest of the article is here:
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture


The thing is, having left we can then do absolutely nothing to reform the system across the rest of the EU.

Wouldn't it be better for the planet if we stayed and used the clout we are repeatedly told we have to make a difference?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> That is NOT what Rees-Mogg said! Your journalist friend has conveniently "doctored" the quote to make it provocative and not only that the quote was from *December 6 the 2016* - nearly two years ago so hardly relevant with all that's gone on since
> 
> What he ACTUALLY said was and I quote "Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on IMPORTED PRODUCTS AFTER IT LEAVES THE EU"
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html


Well, if this is right it doesn't reassure me any more!



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 371560
> 
> View attachment 371563
> 
> 
> The rest of the article is here:
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture


The UK government proposed to sell off woodland currently owned by the Forestry Comission a few years ago until people pressure, including from some Tories, forced a U-Turn on the idea. So, people pressure can and does work sometimes.

This will probably rise again, flog the lot for "development".....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The thing is, having left we can then do absolutely nothing to reform the system across the rest of the EU.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better for the planet if we stayed and used the clout we are repeatedly told we have to make a difference?


The EU don't want to reform anything though. So what clout would the UK have exactly? The UK would have no influence what-so-ever. It is the EU's schemes that are destroying hectares of wild places across Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU don't want to reform anything though. So what clout would the UK have exactly? The UK would have no influence what-so-ever. It is the EU's schemes that are destroying hectares of wild places across Europe.


Did you see the top of the page? it's marked "Opinion". There's been occasional ones from Brexiters in the paper.

If this person is a genuine " remainer" he's the first I've heard of to see of any benefits to Brexit.

But, putting trust in this government?

I've already mentioned the attempted sell off of woodland areas. I can just see the Americans getting their hands on it, converting them to golf courses or "redevelopment".

Too much has already gone, but this is nothing new. I grew up in a developing estate from the late '60s. It was surrounded by woodland. I remember being told the whole lot was going to be replaced by housing.

And more recently, over the past 20 years an area not far from here was rural with housing and green fields. The entire area is now gone with multiple housing eststes, a new dual carrageway road and a business park.

The only thing left is the name.

Going back to the Guardian Opinion piece a couple of interesting comments from Germany. Bogs down to, " Stop blaming the EU for your government's failure".


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU don't want to reform anything though. So what clout would the UK have exactly? The UK would have no influence what-so-ever. It is the EU's schemes that are destroying hectares of wild places across Europe.


Well if that's the case I get confused about how influential we are supposed to be on the world stage if we have "no influence whatsoever" on the EU.

And even if we are not the influential country we like to think, why not simply refuse to agree the EU budget unless CAP is altered to address the obvious faults in the Monbiot piece? We have (had) a veto.

Apropos of nothing in particular, I wonder how many big Tory donors are major farmland owners ...


----------



## KittenKong

No wonder this government are withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights Convention.

So is this what, "Taking control of our laws" will look like? They'll be bringing back Clause 28 next.










https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> *No wonder this government are withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights.*
> 
> So is this what, "Taking control of our laws" will look like? They'll be bringing back Clause 28 next.
> 
> View attachment 371577
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake


May has shelved her idea for withdrawal from the ECHR. Though many people still think it's part of the EU and will be affected by Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Between 30 to 40 Labour MP's are to set to rebel against Corbyn's attempts to stop Brexit by voting down the Chequers Deal to attempt to get a General Election according to the Times and Express newspapers. These MP's have said they will vote for May's Chequers Deal.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> But, putting trust in this government?


You do know that we can change this government in 3 years time? 
It's not like the EUs giant immovable presence, you've just said that public opinion does influence our own government, so to me that's a better system than that of the EU where we have a minuscule input


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> But, putting trust in this government?


I do believe this Government will get the UK out of the EU. Conservative MP's are talking about ousting May after March 2019 so this Government would have served it's purpose come April 2019. If you are talking about the Conservatives remaining in power, well yes I can see the Conservatives remaining in power at least until Labour changes its leader and shadow cabinet, but it would have to be with someone who isn't so far left.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> No wonder this government are withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights.
> 
> So is this what, "Taking control of our laws" will look like? They'll be bringing back Clause 28 next.
> 
> View attachment 371577
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake


Nothing to do with the government withdrawing from the European Court of Human Rights. In fact they were following EU rules.

If you read the article you'll find the decision was in line with article 10 of The European Convention of Human Rights

To quote from the article

"Freedom of expression, as guaranteed by article 10 of the European convention on human rights, includes the right "not to express an opinion which one does not hold", Hale added. "This court has held that nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe," she said.

"The bakers could not refuse to supply their goods to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or supported gay marriage, but that is quite different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."

Here for your further education is a copy of the Convention which I used to know inside out, particularly Articles 5 and 14 (together with a tome covering French law) when my son and I were taken to court over a trumped charge which was later overturned with a formal apology from the French police ....

https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Between 30 to 40 Labour MP's are to set to rebel against Corbyn's attempts to stop Brexit by voting down the Chequers Deal to attempt to get a General Election according to the Times and Express newspapers. These MP's have said they will vote for May's Chequers Deal.


Is that good or bad, do you think?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Is that good or bad, do you think?


Both.
Good as it means there won't be enough Labour MP's to back Corbyn's bid to hold a General Election or Second Referendum bid.

Bad because it is more backing to Theresa May's Chequers Deal.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Between 30 to 40 Labour MP's are to set to rebel against Corbyn's attempts to stop Brexit by voting down the Chequers Deal to attempt to get a General Election according to the Times and Express newspapers. These MP's have said they will vote for May's Chequers Deal.


That doesn't make sense. Since when has Corbyn said he wants Brexit stopped? I think you mean her deal. Stopping Brexit is the last thing he wants!

And of course he hasn't bid for a PV either. He's rejected it many times. Yes he's called for a GE but nothing about a PV.

Where do the Brexcess get this rubbish from? No wonder I look at News Thump nowadays. More true to life reporting in that.

So this is not good news at all if any of this turns out to be true. As you said yourself its backing TM's Chequers deal.

If she gets what she wants expect her as PM for another decade.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> That doesn't make sense. Since when has Corbyn said he wants Brexit stopped? I think you mean her deal. Stopping Brexit is the last thing he wants!
> 
> And of course he hasn't bid for a PV either. He's rejected it many times.
> 
> Where do the Brexcess get this rubbish from? No wonder I look at News Thump nowadays. More true to life reporting in that.
> 
> So this is not good news at all if any of this turns out to be true. As you said yourself its backing TM's Chequers deal.
> 
> If she gets what she wants expect her as PM for another decade.


You think Labours back benchers (the ones wanting to have a second referendum to stop Brexit) would have no influence what-so-ever over Corbyn's decision making if he had the majority for a General Election? I think they would. They have been canvasing since 24th June 2016 trying to cease an opportunity.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Rees-Mogg's favourite economist, Minford, explains how we can benefit from Brexit.
> 
> From The Telegraph:
> "Farmers, as well as car manufacturers, would suffer from lower exports to the EU, Minford said. But the economy as a whole would benefit from being able to scrap EU regulation on workers' rights and climate change, and focus on services where it had a competitive advantage, he added."​
> And there is the ideological plan of the right wing Tories, in a nutshell.
> 
> I repeatedly hear that we knew what we were voting for. Was that it?


Absolutely. Anyone who cant see the blatantly obvious, must have their head in the sand.



stockwellcat. said:


> Not my cartoon. Telegraph newspapers (Premium article). Plus the artist did sign it Blower.
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...xit-almost-battle-britain-has-just-begun/amp/






stockwellcat. said:


> To many people on the planet.


We cant do anything about overpopulation, but there are things WE CAN & MUST do if we want to save our living planet - save ourselves!. Why don't you listen to the climate scientists SWC? Dont you think we should take the radical action required? 12 years isn't very far away - catastrophic runaway climate breakdown WILL affect even you.

George Monbiot has done a lot of research on the subject of the human population crisis. As you now appear to value his contribution  George done a number of articles on the subject in question (all of his work is fully referenced I might add  )

Here is the latest.

Farming
*There's a population crisis all right. But probably not the one you think*








George Monbiot
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...on-crisis-farm-animals-laying-waste-to-planet



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 371560
> 
> View attachment 371563
> 
> 
> The rest of the article is here:
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture


:Hilarious Hilarious that you should reference a George Monbiot article because he's being honest about the failings of the EU, yet when I post his articles about the negatives of leaving the EU or articles hes done on the ecocidal tories, hes scaremongering haha. Talk about cherry picking, deary me


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You think Labours back benchers (the ones wanting to have a second referendum to stop Brexit) would have no influence what-so-ever over Corbyn's decision making if he had the majority for a General Election? I think they would. They have been canvasing since 24th June 2016 trying to cease an opportunity.


Those back benchers would never vote for TMs Chequers deal. Those that might will probably be the ones stuck in the "Labour respects the referendum result" rhetoric or be scared into backing May's deal.

I think they know by now they don't have any influence over the leadership unless they're McDonnell or McCluskey.

And who said anything about a "second" referendum stopping Brexit? It might of course but might also stop TM's plan in favour of No deal.

It could thus work in your favour.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU don't want to reform anything though. So what clout would the UK have exactly? The UK would have no influence what-so-ever. It is the EU's schemes that are destroying hectares of wild places across Europe.


A tory government & tory & ukip MEPs would never make progressive strides in the EU. To reform it people would have to take responsibility and vote for progressive politicians.

Which government fought to stop a cap on CAP subsidies? (George Monbiot  ) 
*
As the British government cut benefits for the poor at home, in Europe it fought to keep millions in subsidies for wealthy farme*rs

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rm-subsidies-blatant-transfer-of-cash-to-rich

Which government lobbied the EU to weaken climate targets?? 
*
On the very day Theresa May triggered Article 50, her government quietly issued another bold statement to Brussels.

Documents obtained by Unearthed reveal UK government attempts to significantly weaken draft EU climate and energy rules, even as Brexit is underwa*y

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/05/28/brexit-uk-eu-climate-change-energy-efficiency/

EU members wanted to ban bee destroying neonicotinoids - guess which government tried to block the motion? https://www.theguardian.com/environ...bee-harming-pesticides?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> You do know that we can change this government in 3 years time?
> It's not like the EUs giant immovable presence, you've just said that public opinion does influence our own government, so to me that's a better system than that of the EU where we have a minuscule input


Brexit is a right wing power grab. The tories are gerrymandering to lock themselves into power. And enough people will always vote tory to keep them there. They actually do believe the spin that Corbyn/labour are the dangerous ones, and not Johnson, Mogg, May, Gove and co who have all but trashed this country and we aint seen nothing yet!. It would be hilarious if wasn't so tragic.

We are well and truely screwed. https://jacobinmag.com/2018/10/climate-change-united-nations-report-nordhaus-nobel

r
*There's No Time for Gradualism*
*The urgency of climate change has never been clearer. We need a bold vision of a good and livable future - and a political program to match.

This is a place where the Left can and must step in: we need to replace the narrowly economistic orientation towards growth that has marked the discount rate debates with a bold vision of a good and livable future - and a political program to match. To start, that means insisting on a publicly funded clean energy transition on a rapid timeline; free public transportation; a major green jobs program oriented towards care and reduced work; public spending on adaptation in vulnerable communities at home and abroad; welcoming migrants and refugees; and more generally, a society where a good life is valued more highly than the market rate of return.

We still have a very long way to go, and the urgency of climate change won't just cut through all the Gordian knots of politics overnight. But that urgency nevertheless has to spur our political aspirations and expectations.

Nothing we need to do to stop climate catastrophe is politically realistic. But what's truly unrealistic is thinking that the future is just going to be brighter on its own, that future generations will solve their own problems. There's no time left for Nordhausian incrementalism. The future - our future - is at stake
*


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


>


The man in the picture doesn't half look like David Cameron.

Deliberate or coincidental?!


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> You think Labours back benchers (the ones wanting to have a second referendum to stop Brexit) would have no influence what-so-ever over Corbyn's decision making if he had the majority for a General Election? I think they would. They have been canvasing since 24th June 2016 trying to cease an opportunity.


Once we are out of the EU I will be voting Labour even if Corbyn is in charge 

Mortgage will be paid, I'll be near to retiring and my little pension is already being paid out.......sod the rest of them then, I've done what I thought was best for the country and future generations for a very long time, I'll take what I can while Labour are offering even if it's not for the greater good


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Once we are out of the EU *I will be voting* Labour even if Corbyn is in charge
> 
> Mortgage will be paid, I'll be near to retiring and my little pension is already being paid out.......sod the rest of them then, I've done what I thought was best for the country and future generations for a very long time, I'll take what I can while Labour are offering even if it's not for the greater good


I've heard this before lol And its thanks to Thatcher and her ideology of greed & self interest, which spread across the world, that we're now facing the greatest threat we've ever faced. Glad I've played no part in it.

*Neoliberalism - the ideology at the root of all our problems*

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot


----------



## rona

I'm so glad I don't take myself too seriously. I'd be so unhappy and judgmental all the time


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I'm so glad I don't take myself too seriously. I'd be so unhappy and judgmental all the time


Same


----------



## Arnie83

It won't matter a damn who I vote for in the next election. Where I live the Tory candidate will win, and always has. 

But I shall be going on the People's Vote march next week, to do what I can for the future of humanity.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But I shall be going on the People's Vote march next week, to do what I can for the future of humanity.


Well please don't annoy Londoners by blocking the streets to long in Central London 

I didn't realise the future of humanity was at risk because the UK is leaving the EU :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I'm so glad I don't take myself too seriously. I'd be so unhappy and judgmental all the time


Same here


----------



## noushka05

Well what a surprise.

*Graham Simpson*‏ @grahambsi
*The US is threatening to block the UK from a 46-nation public procurement agreement, a move that would deny British companies from accessing a near $2 trillion-dollar marketplace after leaving the EU: So much for our 'Special Relationship'*

*U.S. Threatens to Block U.K. From Global Procurement Pact*
By 
Bryce Baschuk
9 October 2018, 16:58 BST Updated on 10 October 2018, 1

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ull-blocking-u-k-from-global-procurement-pact


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 6h6 hours ago
With just 12 years left to avoid catastrophic climate breakdown, we need an environment secretary dedicated to working across borders to create a fairer, healthier, safer society - not a self-promoting architect of an environmentally destructive Brexit.

*Michael Gove skips climate change summit day after UN report calls for urgent action to avoid global disaster*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hael-gove-environment-secretary-a8576116.html

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 6h6 hours ago
This Govt is determined to do everything in its power to defy science and democracy and ram #fracking through. But these are the desperate measures of ministers who know they're losing the argument.

We will defeat fracking


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It won't matter a damn who I vote for in the next election. Where I live the Tory candidate will win, and always has.
> 
> But I shall be going on the People's Vote march next week, to do what I can for the future of humanity.


I've never understood how anyone could vote for a party that has deliberately created so much suffering and destruction. And now they're driving the whole country off a cliff, worse still the tories are ramping up the destruction of our biosphere when they KNOW we're heading for irreversible ecological collapse.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I've never understood how anyone could vote for a party that has deliberately created so much suffering and destruction. And now they're driving the whole country off a cliff, worse still the tories are ramping up the destruction of our biosphere when they KNOW we're heading for irreversible ecological collapse.


I didn't.
I voted Labour in the last election as my local MP is Labour and a Brexitier.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well please don't annoy Londoners by blocking the streets to long in Central London
> 
> I didn't realise the future of humanity was at risk because the UK is leaving the EU :Hilarious


Leaving the EU makes tackling climate change nigh on impossible, it is a global issue, we must work together & we need collaboration with our neighbours. When the government should be focusing on the greatest threat we face, its focusing on brexit. Brexit is a massive distraction.

*Brexit may weaken climate change regulation in the UK*
Environmentalists have accused the government of weakening regulation on the environment as we prepare to leave the EU.

http://www.climateaction.org/news/brexit-may-weaken-climate-change-regulation-in-the-uk


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't.
> I voted Labour in the last election as my local MP is Labour and a Brexitier.


Kate Hoey may be a labour party MP but, lets face it, shes as far right as Farage:Wtf


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Leaving the EU makes tackling climate change nigh on impossible, it is a global issue, we must work together & we need collaboration with our neighbours. When the government should be focusing on the greatest threat we face, its focusing on brexit. Brexit is a massive distraction.
> 
> *Brexit may weaken climate change regulation in the UK*
> Environmentalists have accused the government of weakening regulation on the environment as we prepare to leave the EU.
> 
> http://www.climateaction.org/news/brexit-may-weaken-climate-change-regulation-in-the-uk


Hahaha
Sorry I have heard it all now.
Brexit this brexit that and now brexit is going to weaken the environment. Come off it.

If you want to look at environments affecting the globe look at China, Bangkok they have some of the worst.

Notice they use the word may in there finings. They don't know do they. Not really they don't. Familiar word keeps popping up in some remainers findings "may". Using the word may weakens the argument somewhat as it means they don't know for certain.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Hahaha
> Sorry I have heard it all now.
> Brexit this brexit that and now brexit is going to weaken the environment. Come off it.


As you now clearly accept George Monbiot is reliable source of reference , check out the video >>>>> (though I predict you'll just dismiss it as 'scaremongering' because hes saying something you dont want to face )


----------



## Elles

Climate change has been happening for decades, the Eu have caused a lot of it, as has big business and corporations, advertising, our brainwashing, governments etc. Ranting at the man in the street about it now is a bit late.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> As you now clearly accept George Monbiot is reliable source of reference , check out the video >>>>> (though I predict you'll just dismiss it as 'scaremongering' because hes saying something you dont want to face )


Sorry and who is he exactly? Some self proclaimed expert?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> As you now clearly accept George Monbiot is reliable source of reference , check out the video >>>>> (though I predict you'll just dismiss it as 'scaremongering' because hes saying something you dont want to face )


The reality is noushka. The damage to the environment has been done. The EU and other places around the world are to blame not just the UK. The environmemt started getting damaged the day beings started roaming the earth and started "s**t**g" or more politely number 2ing. It is a bit late now preaching about it as it is probably irriversable.

Another topic with no concrete evidence that the UK leaving the EU will cause to get any worse. Speculation.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Climate change has been happening for decades, the Eu have caused a lot of it, as has big business and corporations, advertising, our brainwashing, governments etc. Ranting at the man in the street about it now is a bit late.


Don't you think we should be putting all efforts into addressing it? We can't do that alone. We most certainly cant do it with a tory governement.



stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry and who is he exactly? Some self proclaimed expert?


So predictable:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't realise the future of humanity was at risk because the UK is leaving the EU :Hilarious


My opinion is that Brexit gives it a prod in exactly the wrong direction.

Brexit seeks to reinforce boundaries between countries, increasing nationalism, encouraging emphasis on the differences and competition between us.

The desire, based on a primitive instinct, to be a part of a comfortingly defined tribe, feeling superior to other tribes and seeking to out-compete them for the greater glory of one's own has, for tens of thousands of years, led to wars of ever increasing carnage as our technological ability to kill has increased.

Quite simply, multinational bodies like the EU, for all their many faults, reduce the chances of conflict. Splitting up such multinational bodies increases them.

If we do leave, we will not only be damaging the economic life prospects of upcoming generations, but we will be increasing the chances of conflict in the world where they will live out their lives.

It's why I have little regard for those (few I hope) whose Leave vote was predicated on the feeling that being part of a big artificial tribe that can outvote our own, equally artificial smaller one, somehow diminishes their self-worth.

(Sorry, got a little ranty, there.)


----------



## Elles

I don’t think it’s irreversible, but people hardly ever get credit for what they are doing, with positive examples to inspire us. Generally it’s just ranting and placard waving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So predictable:Hilarious


Oh he is then :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> (Sorry, got a little ranty, there.)


That's ok I just skimmed over it. List interest after the first paragraph.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The reality is noushka. The damage to the environment has been done. The EU and other places around the world are to blame not just the UK. The environmemt started getting damaged the day beings started roaming the earth and started "s**t**g" or more politely number 2ing. It is a bit late now preaching about it as it is probably irriversable.


Wow. so basically you dont think saving our planet is worth fighting for? . Lets carry on regardless even though experts have warned us we must act now!. As I feared, the Age of Supid, is here and now.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh he is them :Hilarious


Yes, but hes only an expert to you when he says something negative against the EU:Watching


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Hahaha
> Sorry I have heard it all now.
> Brexit this brexit that and now brexit is going to weaken the environment. Come off it.


Rees-Mogg introduced and praised the report by Minford's Economists for Free Trade, using it to predict gains from Brexit ...

"The economy as a whole would benefit from being able to scrap EU regulation on workers' rights and climate change, and focus on services where it had a competitive advantage."​
So yes, we will weaken the environment if Rees-Mogg has his way.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't think it's irreversible, but people hardly ever get credit for what they are doing, with positive examples to inspire us. Generally it's just ranting and placard waving.


Well we know what we've been doing isnt enough, We know our governments must take immediate radical action.

Do you think this one is taking it seriously Elles?

*Michael Gove skips climate change summit day after UN report calls for urgent action to avoid global disaster*
*Environment secretary absent at meeting of his counterparts*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hael-gove-environment-secretary-a8576116.html

Michael Gove and the rest of the UK Cabinet have skipped a key international summit on climate change a day after a landmark UN report warned that "urgent" action was needed to avoid global warming disaster.

Mr Gove's department confirmed the environment secretary was not able to attend the meeting of EU environment ministers in Luxembourg, which is specifically about fighting climate change by cutting CO2 emissions, as well as other environmental matters such as biodiversity.

Though the meeting was attended by Mr Gove's top counterparts from countries including France, Germany, the Netherlands, and Sweden, he instead sent one of his junior ministers, Therese Coffey, to cover for him - with no member of the UK Cabinet present at the summit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That's ok I just skimmed over it. Lost interest after the first paragraph.


That's the spirit.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Well what a surprise.
> 
> *Graham Simpson*‏ @grahambsi
> *The US is threatening to block the UK from a 46-nation public procurement agreement, a move that would deny British companies from accessing a near $2 trillion-dollar marketplace after leaving the EU: So much for our 'Special Relationship'*
> 
> *U.S. Threatens to Block U.K. From Global Procurement Pact*
> By
> Bryce Baschuk
> 9 October 2018, 16:58 BST Updated on 10 October 2018, 1
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ull-blocking-u-k-from-global-procurement-pact


Having looked at the main US newspapers today the only one that has reported it is Bloomberg so not exactly earth shattering!


----------



## Elles

I don’t necessarily agree. Large multinational bodies reliant on and responsible for public money are more often than not wasteful and greedy. Small can be beautiful. The Eu has been and continues to be responsible for some pretty poor investments too. Every time it makes a poor decision it affects the whole of Europe, if we do there can be some damage limitation.

Climate change is back in the news. I fear that there has been so much exaggerating and fear mongering on other issues, people are starting to dismiss it as yet another example of trying to control the masses with portents of doom.

Michael Gove is a brexiteer, anxious to leave the Eu. Of course I’m not surprised that he didn’t attend an Eu meeting, of Eu ministers, in Eu territory. I would think they’re glad he didn’t go. My personal opinion is that I would have preferred if he had, but tbh it’s not like they don’t know what to do. They’ve known for years. We need action, not words and if Gove is a climate denier at heart, best he stays out of the way and leaves the adults in charge.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Having looked at the main US newspapers today the only one that has reported it is Bloomberg so not exactly earth shattering!


I didnt say it was earth shattering.

This on the other hand .....


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't necessarily agree. Large multinational bodies reliant on and responsible for public money are more often than not wasteful and greedy. Small can be beautiful. The Eu has been and continues to be responsihble for some pretty poor investments too. Every time it makes a poor decision it affects the whole of Europe, if we do there can be some damage limitation.
> 
> Climate change is back in the news. I fear that there has been so much exaggerating and fear mongering on other issues, people are starting to dismiss it as yet another example of trying to control the masses with portents of doom.
> 
> Michael Gove is a brexiteer, anxious to leave the Eu. Of course I'm not surprised that he didn't attend an Eu meeting, of Eu ministers, in Eu territory. I would think they're glad he didn't go. My personal opinion is that I would have preferred if he had, but tbh it's not like they don't know what to do. They've known for years. We need action, not words and if Gove is a climate denier at heart, best he stays out of the way and leaves the adults in charge.


You dont agree with the worlds leading climate experts? hmm ok And here lies the crux of much of our problems - people think they know better than experts.

I'm not surprised Gove didnt go either lol


----------



## Elles

Sorry @noushka05 that pesky quote button again. I was disagreeing with Arnie's comment about the multinational bodies reducing the chance of conflict. I don't think they do. I wasn't disagreeing about climate change, which to be fair, the rest of my post should have made obvious really.


----------



## Elles

Oh and yes, in my own field I often do know better than the so-called experts. I’ve been fighting against them for years.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> That's the spirit.


Well it came across as a bit of a lecture and telling me how I voted. Sorry I am passed all that and I know exactly how I voted, why I voted that way and don't need people telling me otherwise. Sorry but lecturing people isn't going to work or is second guessing why people voted leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Sorry @noushka05 that pesky quote button again. I was disagreeing with Arnie's comment about the *multinational bodies reducing the chance of conflict. I don't think they do*. I wasn't disagreeing about climate change, which to be fair, the rest of my post should have made obvious really.


The logic is that if you share a currency and a whole heap of other stuff, then for starters you are far more likely to be meeting and talking regularly, thereby making escalation less likely, but also that disrupting a neighbour's economy through warfare is going to trash your own, so you will think a lot harder before doing it. No doubt it doesn't remove the possibility, but I don't think 'reducing it' is too grandiose a claim.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it came across as a bit of a lecture and telling me how I voted. Sorry I am passed all that and I know exactly how I voted, why I voted that way and don't need people telling me otherwise. Sorry but lecturing people isn't going to work or is second guessing why people voted leave. Also please leave out the Neanderthal bit as us humans have progressed since the days of the Neanderthals.


I didn't tell you how you voted. Or more accurately why. I neither know nor want to know why you voted the way you did, because when I post here it isn't a personal attack on any PF member.

What Neanderthal bit?

If you mean the primitive instinct to get together in self-identifying groups and competing with other groups, sometimes violently, then it stems at least from the time of a common ancestor we share with today's chimpanzees, and probably further. It's why I think it's time we grew out of it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Sorry @noushka05 that pesky quote button again. I was disagreeing with Arnie's comment about the multinational bodies reducing the chance of conflict. I don't think they do. I wasn't disagreeing about climate change, which to be fair, the rest of my post should have made obvious really.


It wasn't obvious to me so thanks for clarifying.



Elles said:


> Oh and yes, in my own field I often do know better than the so-called experts. I've been fighting against them for years.


The problem with climate denial for example, it isnt the deniers own field, they dont have a clue what they're talking about. Hence why they reference charlatans such as that Delingpole eejit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't tell you how you voted. Or more accurately why. I neither know nor want to know why you voted the way you did, because when I post here it isn't a personal attack on any PF member.


You did a while ago assume my vote to leave was based on emotion. It wasn't.

I find the lectures boring because I feel it is another way remain voters are using to try and insult leave voters. It's a bit to late to be lecturing people as the vote happened and there isn't another one on the horizon in the near future as of yet. Right or wrong the majority regardless of how small the percentage was voted leave and the Government no matter how much they are messing it up are doing there job and respecting the vote and enacting on what they have been instructed to do in the 2016 referendum.

We will see what the deal is shortly and I am sure there will be plenty to talk about when the full content of the deal is revealed.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I didnt say it was earth shattering.
> 
> This on the other hand .....


I never said that you said it was earth shattering, that was what I said, not you!

There do happen to be a few more countries in the world you know apart from the UK, the EU and the US so I don't understand why you consider the fate of the planet depends on our being a part of the EU.

Africa in particular South Africa, Kenya, Botswana and Zambia have been extremely active especially in Wildlife conservation and latterly Environmental and Climate change issues.

https://unfccc.int/news/africa-stri...at-into-sustainable-development-opportunities

https://www.ensafrica.com/news/Feeling-the-heat-the-draft-Climate-Change-Bill-2018?
Id=3174&STitle=natural%20resources%20and%20environment%20ENSight&utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=View-Original

https://www.gov.za/about-sa/environment


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> The logic is that if you share a currency and a whole heap of other stuff, then for starters you are far more likely to be meeting and talking regularly, thereby making escalation less likely, but also that disrupting a neighbour's economy through warfare is going to trash your own, so you will think a lot harder before doing it. No doubt it doesn't remove the possibility, but I don't think 'reducing it' is too grandiose a claim.


But couldn't that be considered as Neoliberalism which some Remainers seem to think is the cause of many of the UK present problems?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I never said that you said it was earth shattering, that was what I said, not you!
> 
> There do happen to be a few more countries in the world you know apart from the UK, the EU and the US so I don't understand why you consider the fate of the planet depends on our being a part of the EU.
> 
> Africa in particular South Africa, Kenya, Botswana and Zambia have been extremely active especially in Wildlife conservation and latterly Environmental and Climate change issues.
> 
> https://unfccc.int/news/africa-stri...at-into-sustainable-development-opportunities
> 
> https://www.ensafrica.com/news/Feeling-the-heat-the-draft-Climate-Change-Bill-2018?
> Id=3174&STitle=natural%20resources%20and%20environment%20ENSight&utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=View-Original
> 
> https://www.gov.za/about-sa/environment


If you were to look objectively at what experts say I'm sure you would understand & I've made countless posts on the whys & wherefores of why we need global action & why Trump and brexit are a disaster for our living planet. Climate breakdown is a global issue, we have to work together to solve it. I dont have time to go into detail at the mo as my hubby wants his tea lol But here are the thoughts of the late Stephen Hawking - who was arguably the smartest man on the planet.
_
Stephen Hawking has broken his silence on Donald Trump's election victory in a rallying cry for the human race to "work together" and "break down barriers".

The multi-award winning cosmologist, a national treasure in Britain, said it would be a "terrible mistake" to ignore the populism behind the votes for Brexit and the billionaire tycoon in the US.

The 74-year-old also claimed "we are at the most dangerous moment in the development of humanity" with the "technology to destroy the planet".

Mr Trump has branded the climate change concept a "hoax" created by the Chinese, while scientists have argued that Brexit damages the sharing of ideas._

_
"For me, the really concerning aspect of this is that now, more than at any time in our history, our species needs to work together. We face awesome environmental challenges: climate change, food production, overpopulation, the decimation of other species, epidemic disease, acidification of the oceans," he said.

"Together, they are a reminder that we are at the most dangerous moment in the development of humanity._

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rexit-dangerous-moment-humanity-a7452406.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Final Brexit divorce deal could be reached by next Wednesday - EU*

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/fina...ould-be-reached-by-next-wednesday-eu-11522903

So the UK will meet the October deadline as originally planned.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> *Final Brexit divorce deal could be reached by next Wednesday - EU*
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/fina...ould-be-reached-by-next-wednesday-eu-11522903
> 
> So the UK will meet the October deadline as originally planned.


I'm sorry


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You did a while ago assume my vote to leave was based on emotion. It wasn't.
> 
> I find the lectures boring because I feel it is another way remain voters are using to try and insult leave voters. It's a bit to late to be lecturing people as the vote happened and there isn't another one on the horizon in the near future as of yet. Right or wrong the majority regardless of how small the percentage was voted leave and the Government no matter how much they are messing it up are doing there job and respecting the vote and enacting on what they have been instructed to do in the 2016 referendum.
> 
> We will see what the deal is shortly and I am sure there will be plenty to talk about when the full content of the deal is revealed.


Sorry, but I have never assumed your vote to leave was based on anything in particular. I have no idea why you voted leave, and, as I say, I don't want to know. If you want to feel insulted by what I write that's your prerogative.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> But couldn't that be considered as Neoliberalism which some Remainers seem to think is the cause of many of the UK present problems?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot


More self-interest that neoliberalism I would have thought. I expect some remainers do think that, but I would imagine remainers represent a wide range of opinions, since they are roughly half the population!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry


Glad I made you laugh


----------



## Magyarmum

This is the full speech Barnier gave today in Brussels

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-18-6089_en.htm


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> This is the full speech Barnier gave today in Brussels
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-18-6089_en.htm


Thanks for posting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> On 29 March 2019, in less than 6 months, the UK will leave the European Union.
> 
> We have always respected the UK's sovereign decision to leave the European Union, even if we profoundly regret this vote We respect its decision to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union.
> 
> And we are doing our best to reach a deal on the UK's orderly withdrawal.
> 
> *Since the beginning of this negotiation, we have made good progress.*
> 
> In fact, as you can see in this copy of the draft Treaty, a lot of the Withdrawal Agreement - 80%-85% - has now been agreed with the UK.
> 
> *However, some difficult issues have been left until the end.*
> 
> We must agree on the governance of the Withdrawal Agreement and on geographical indications that are currently protected in the 28 EU Member States.
> 
> Above all, we need to agree on how to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland for political, human, and economic reasons.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> *The UK wants to and will leave the Single Market and the Customs Union.*
> 
> This means that there must be checks on goods travelling between the EU and the UK - checks that do not exist today:
> 
> 
> customs and VAT checks;
> and compliance checks with our standards to protect our consumers, our economic traders and your businesses.
> We have agreed with the UK that these checks cannot be performed at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
> 
> A crucial question is, therefore, where they will take place.
> 
> The EU is committed to respecting the territorial integrity and constitutional order of the UK, just like the UK has committed to respecting the integrity of our Single Market, including Ireland, obviously.
> 
> Therefore, the EU proposes to carry out these checks in the least intrusive way possible.
> 
> For customs and VAT checks, we propose using the existing customs transit procedures to avoid doing checks at a physical border point. To be more specific:
> 
> o Companies in the rest of the UK would fill in their customs declarations online and in advance when shipping goods to Northern Ireland.
> 
> o The only visible systematic checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would involve scanning the bar codes of the lorries or containers, which could be done on ferries or in transit ports.
> 
> o These arrangements already exist within EU Member States, in particular those with islands, for example between mainland Spain and the Canary Islands.
> 
> For regulatory checks, on industrial goods for instance, these could be carried out by market surveillance authorities.
> 
> Again, this would not need to happen at a border but directly in the market or at the premises of companies in Northern Ireland.
> 
> This leaves the health and phytosanitary checks for live animals and products of animal origin. EU rules are clear: such checks must happen at the border because of food safety and animal health reasons. And obviously, in the future the island of Ireland will and must remain a single epidemiologic area.
> 
> o Such checks already exist in the ports of Larne and Belfast.
> 
> o However they would have to cover 100 % rather than 10 % of live animals and animal-derived products, which would involve a significant change in terms of scale.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> Both the EU and the UK exclude having a physical border on the island of Ireland. Therefore what will arrive into Northern Ireland will also be arriving into the Single Market.
> 
> There will be administrative procedures that do not exist today for goods travelling to Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. Our challenge is to make sure those procedures are as easy as possible and not too burdensome, in particular for smaller businesses.
> 
> I understand why such procedures are politically sensitive, but let me make three remarks.
> 
> First, Brexit was not our choice. It is the choice of the UK. Our proposal tries to help the UK in managing the negative fall-out of Brexit in Northern Ireland, in a way that respects the territorial integrity of the UK.
> 
> Second, our proposal limits itself to what is absolutely necessary to avoid a hard border: customs procedures and the respect of EU standards for products.
> 
> It does not include measures on free movement of people, services, healthcare or social and environmental policy. But the Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland will continue as today.
> 
> And yet, our proposal gives Northern Ireland benefits that no part of a third country enjoys. In particular continued access to the Single Market for goods and continued benefits from the EU free trade agreements.
> 
> Our proposal also includes the continuation of the island's Single Electricity Market, as requested by the UK.
> 
> Over the past week, we have met the leaders of all Northern Irish political parties - many of whom I have met before, and many of whom I will meet again. My door is always open. And my team met on Monday a group of Northern Irish business leaders and a group representing local government.
> 
> Naturally, there were questions, doubts and worries about our proposal - and Brexit in general.
> 
> But most conversations focused on the added value for Northern Ireland so long as we can mitigate the burden of doing checks.
> 
> Third, our proposal is just a safety net, a "backstop".
> 
> It is needed because the details of the future relationship will only be negotiated after the UK's withdrawal.
> 
> But the future relation in itself might mitigate the necessary checks, or even make some unnecessary:
> 
> o For instance, a veterinary agreement would mean less frequent inspections of live animals.
> 
> o And we are still open to the idea of having a customs union with the UK. Such a customs union would eliminate an important part of custom checks.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> Apart from the issue of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the Withdrawal Agreement will include other important issues, on which we already agreed with the UK.
> 
> These issues are important for your businesses, your employees and your regions.
> 
> In particular, we already agreed that:
> 
> European citizens who arrived in the UK before the end of 2020 and British citizens who moved to other EU countries before that date can continue to live their lives as before. We remain in close contact with the organisations representing the citizens concerned, most notably to discuss the implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement.
> 
> All financial commitments undertaken by the 28 EU Member States will be honoured by the 28, for instance on the European Social Fund and the regional policy. All current programmes will continue, with the UKs participation.
> 
> The UK will retain all the rights and obligations of a Member State for a transition period, until the end of 2020, at its request.
> 
> This will leave time for businesses to prepare.
> 
> And this will leave time to finalise the future relationship.
> 
> To be clear, all these points will enter into force on the condition that we agree on the whole Withdrawal Agreement, which must then be ratified, I hope in the beginning of next year by the UK and by the European Parliament.


Well this sounds like a deal is forming nicely and doesn't sound like some of the stuff mentioned online.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Well this sounds like a deal is forming nicely and doesn't sound like some of the stuff mentioned online.


Just fluff though really isn't it. no real detail, just press fodder


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well this sounds like a deal is forming nicely and doesn't sound like some of the stuff mentioned online.


Boris seems pleased with it too

*Boris Johnson*‏Verified account @BorisJohnson
This is an important moment. Clearly No10 are negotiating a "backstop" that makes the UK a permanent EU colony. We cannot escape EU laws & ECJ until they allow us to - which they may never do. That's not what the biggest majority in our history voted for #NoColonyStatus 1/4

This backstop keeps the UK in the Customs Union, keeps Northern Ireland in the single market, and almost certainly enhances NI/GB checks. It *will* apply after 2020 unless the EU agrees it won't. And they will only agree if we keep our rules in lockstep with theirs 2/4

This backstop closes off our options. It means we cannot have no deal / WTO or SuperCanada. Under either our rules could differ from the EU's - so they will keep us in the backstop instead. It means, in fact, that the only possible deal is Chequers 3/4

This is far from #TakeBackControl. In the referendum both sides said Leave meant leaving the customs union & single market. Yet this backstop inevitably means chequers, staying in both, no say in either, and no right to escape. No10 must #ChuckChequers now 4/4


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Boris seems pleased with it too
> 
> *Boris Johnson*‏Verified account @BorisJohnson
> This is an important moment. Clearly No10 are negotiating a "backstop" that makes the UK a permanent EU colony. We cannot escape EU laws & ECJ until they allow us to - which they may never do. That's not what the biggest majority in our history voted for #NoColonyStatus 1/4
> 
> This backstop keeps the UK in the Customs Union, keeps Northern Ireland in the single market, and almost certainly enhances NI/GB checks. It *will* apply after 2020 unless the EU agrees it won't. And they will only agree if we keep our rules in lockstep with theirs 2/4
> 
> This backstop closes off our options. It means we cannot have no deal / WTO or SuperCanada. Under either our rules could differ from the EU's - so they will keep us in the backstop instead. It means, in fact, that the only possible deal is Chequers 3/4
> 
> This is far from #TakeBackControl. In the referendum both sides said Leave meant leaving the customs union & single market. Yet this backstop inevitably means chequers, staying in both, no say in either, and no right to escape. No10 must #ChuckChequers now 4/4


I see BBC Reality Check have picked the pathological liar up on this lie >>>

*BBC Reality Check*‏Verified account @BBCRealityCheck 4h4 hours ago
Replying to @BorisJohnson
Biggest majority in our history? The majority in the EU Referendum was 1.3 million. Majority in the referendum on joining the EEC in 1975 was 8.9 million


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> I see BBC Reality Check have picked the pathological liar up on this lie >>>
> 
> *BBC Reality Check*‏Verified account @BBCRealityCheck 4h4 hours ago
> Replying to @BorisJohnson
> Biggest majority in our history? The majority in the EU Referendum was 1.3 million. Majority in the referendum on joining the EEC in 1975 was 8.9 million


As has his sister!

*Rachel Johnson*‏Verified account @RachelSJohnson
Replying to @BorisJohnson
Does a winning margin of 1m constitute the biggest majority in our history?


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Boris seems pleased with it too
> 
> *Boris Johnson*‏Verified account @BorisJohnson
> This is an important moment. Clearly No10 are negotiating a "backstop" that makes the UK a permanent EU colony. We cannot escape EU laws & ECJ until they allow us to - which they may never do. That's not what the biggest majority in our history voted for #NoColonyStatus 1/4
> 
> This backstop keeps the UK in the Customs Union, keeps Northern Ireland in the single market, and almost certainly enhances NI/GB checks. It *will* apply after 2020 unless the EU agrees it won't. And they will only agree if we keep our rules in lockstep with theirs 2/4
> 
> This backstop closes off our options. It means we cannot have no deal / WTO or SuperCanada. Under either our rules could differ from the EU's - so they will keep us in the backstop instead. It means, in fact, that the only possible deal is Chequers 3/4
> 
> This is far from #TakeBackControl. In the referendum both sides said Leave meant leaving the customs union & single market. Yet this backstop inevitably means chequers, staying in both, no say in either, and no right to escape. No10 must #ChuckChequers now 4/4


Best rebuke of all must go to James O'Brien though.

*James O'Brien*‏Verified account @mrjamesob
James O'Brien Retweeted Boris Johnson

You caused all this.

It won't be forgotten

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Elles

Oh look, we’re staying in the Eu. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May will ask Cabinet for a customs union Brexit as DUP warns it could bring down her Government*
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/10/theresa-may-will-ask-cabinet-agree-brexit-deal-keeps-uk-customs/amp/


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May will ask Cabinet for a customs union Brexit as DUP warns it could bring down her Government*
> www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/10/theresa-may-will-ask-cabinet-agree-brexit-deal-keeps-uk-customs/amp/


For anyone who, like me doesn't have a subscription to the Telegraph and therefore can't read the article here's one which you can!

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/26/brexit-what-is-the-customs-union-and-why-does-it-matter.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> For anyone who, like me doesn't have a subscription to the Telegraph and therefore can't read the article here's one which you can!
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/26/brexit-what-is-the-customs-union-and-why-does-it-matter.html


How strange I was able to read the article? I don't have a subscription to the Telegraph. Sorry about that.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> How strange I was able to read the article? I don't have a subscription to the Telegraph. Sorry about that.


No problem. I think it's because I've used up my allowance of free articles and they want me to pay. I have the same problem with The Spectator, FT, and NY Times and there might be a few others I've forgotten!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May will ask Cabinet for a customs union Brexit as DUP warns it could bring down her Government*


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371678


Given that 56% of the Northern Ireland population voted to remain in the EU, Arlene Foster should think carefully about how much trouble the DUP should be making.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Boris seems pleased with it too
> 
> *Boris Johnson*‏Verified account @BorisJohnson
> This is an important moment. Clearly No10 are negotiating a "backstop" that makes the UK a permanent EU colony. We cannot escape EU laws & ECJ until they allow us to - which they may never do. That's not what the biggest majority in our history voted for #NoColonyStatus 1/4
> 
> This backstop keeps the UK in the Customs Union, keeps Northern Ireland in the single market, and almost certainly enhances NI/GB checks. It *will* apply after 2020 unless the EU agrees it won't. And they will only agree if we keep our rules in lockstep with theirs 2/4
> 
> This backstop closes off our options. It means we cannot have no deal / WTO or SuperCanada. Under either our rules could differ from the EU's - so they will keep us in the backstop instead. It means, in fact, that the only possible deal is Chequers 3/4
> 
> This is far from #TakeBackControl. In the referendum both sides said Leave meant leaving the customs union & single market. Yet this backstop inevitably means chequers, staying in both, no say in either, and no right to escape. No10 must #ChuckChequers now 4/4


https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/09...-he-must-never-be-allowed-to-lead-the-uk-view


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Hahaha
> Sorry I have heard it all now.
> Brexit this brexit that and now brexit is going to weaken the environment. Come off it.
> 
> If you want to look at environments affecting the globe look at China, Bangkok they have some of the worst.
> 
> Notice they use the word may in there finings. They don't know do they. Not really they don't. Familiar word keeps popping up in some remainers findings "may". Using the word may weakens the argument somewhat as it means they don't know for certain.


You dont need to be an experts to understand the ideology of the tories. You dont need to be an expert to see the tories record on green issues is dire. You dont need to be an expert to hear what they want to do to EU legislation which protects our natural environment. You dont need to be an expert to look at the tories voting histories on green issues. You only need to take a critically look at everything they stand for, at who bankrolls the tory party to know our environment is under grave danger from them.



Elles said:


> Climate change is back in the news. I fear that there has been so much exaggerating and fear mongering on other issues, people are starting to dismiss it as yet another example of trying to control the masses with portents of doom.


I was trying to multitask when I was replying to some posts last night so just replying to some in more detail now.

Climate change should have been in every news bulletin, on every front page decades ago, like the the threat to the ozone layer was. The media have let us down big time, even now countless people dont even believe climate change is real though its effects are happening all around them. Many others believe its real but don't realise how close we are to global catastrophe. They dont know we have reached the tipping point of unstoppable runaway climate breakdown. There are examples on this forum of such people.



Elles said:


> Michael Gove is a brexiteer, anxious to leave the Eu. Of course I'm not surprised that he didn't attend an Eu meeting, of Eu ministers, in Eu territory. I would think they're glad he didn't go. My personal opinion is that I would have preferred if he had, but tbh it's not like they don't know what to do. They've known for years. We need action, not words and if Gove is a climate denier at heart, best he stays out of the way and leaves the adults in charge.


Exactly why brexit is so dangerous to our future.



Magyarmum said:


> But couldn't that be considered as Neoliberalism which some Remainers seem to think is the cause of many of the UK present problems?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot


Neoliberalism is largely responsible for the worlds problems never mind the UKs, its nothing to do with what remainers think, it is a fact.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You dont need to be an experts to understand the ideology of the tories. You dont need to be an expert to see the tories record on green issues is dire. You dont need to be an expert to hear what they want to do to EU legislation which protects our natural environment. You dont need to be an expert to look at the tories voting histories on green issues. You only need to take a critically look at everything they stand for, at who bankrolls the tory party to know our environment is under grave danger from them.


You have it in your head that I adore the Conservative Party. I don't. I voted Labour in the last General Election and explained my reasons for not wanting to back them at the next General Election and I most certainly will not vote for the Conservatives either at the next General Election. This current Government has only one use and many people will abandon them once they have acheived what was voted for in 2016.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/09...-he-must-never-be-allowed-to-lead-the-uk-view


I got to this bit and it me cracked up >> er _British Foreign Secretary, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson :Hilarious

I'_ve only scanned the article as I have to out now, but it looks a good read. Thank you @Magyarmum .


----------



## Magyarmum

The Wooferendum!!!!!

As a pet/dog lover, irrespective of one's opinions about Brexit ..... don't you just love this?

https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/05/a-very-british-protest-view


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> *NEWS*
> *Britain's overseas territories brace for Brexit*
> 
> Residents of the British territory Anguilla didn't get a say in Brexit, but they will lose their EU passports come March 29 next year. The territory relies heavily on imports that come mostly via the EU.
> 
> As UK Prime Minister Theresa May continues to hash out a Brexit deal with the EU, Britain's overseas territories are waiting anxiously to see how the divorce from the bloc will affect them.
> 
> Anguilla, one of Britain's six territories in the Caribbean, is located some 6,500 kilometers (4,039 miles) from Britain and relies heavily on imports - even for its drinking water.
> 
> _Read more:_ EU Customs Union, Single Market, Brexit - What you need to know
> 
> Most of the goods come in through the EU, via a port just 15 minutes away on the French island of Saint Martin.
> 
> "This port is the life vest of Anguilla," Port Manager Roland J Hodge told DW. "This is the only cargo port, so if for whatever reason the port closes down, Anguilla in itself just might close down."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguilla 'an afterthought'
> 
> If London fails to secure a good Brexit deal, Anguilla's residents are worried they will be among the biggest losers. The territory's dependency on its ties with the EU means most residents would have chosen to stay in the bloc.
> 
> But they were not given a vote.
> 
> _Read more:_ Did Angela Merkel approve Theresa May's Brexit plan in advance?
> 
> Anguilla's Prime Minister Victor Banks said he thinks Anguilla is an "afterthought" of the British government.
> 
> "When I travel to the United Kingdom, I would say 90 percent of the people I talk to, who are British, don't have a clue that there is a place called Anguilla," Banks told DW. "So I really think we are an afterthought. I don't think that we are big on the agenda for the British government as one of the issues that they speak about."
> 
> *Brexit: The curse of the Caribbean*
> Residents to lose EU passports
> 
> Local radio host DJ Hammer said he was angry Anguilla did not have a say over Brexit. He is among some 15,000 islanders who are set to lose their EU passports after March 29 next year.
> 
> "We find it insulting because we'll be affected directly. The Anguilla-Saint Martin border has been a soft border for years and we are concerned that this Brexit situation might impact that in a negative [way]."
> 
> _Read more:_ Opinion: Donald Trump's coordinated assault on Theresa May's Brexit plans
> 
> Other Anguillans feel similarly. "Anguillians should've had the chance to participate in the Brexit vote and that no other people should decide Anguillans' fate," one local man told DW. "But then Britain has been increasing its micromanagement of Anguilla," he added.
> 
> Another man asked: "Is it fair to us? That means we have no say, because if you take the economy of Anguilla, if you take the budget, it has to be approved by the UK. So we are just puppets in the whole thing."
> 
> Independence movement
> 
> The EU plays a significant role in Anguilla. Hurricane Irma devastated the tiny territory last September and many homes still lie in ruins, and with the state having no money to spare, the planned reconstruction is funded by the EU.
> 
> The EU is also Anguilla's largest provider of development aid, with much of the money earmarked for education. But for the moment it is unclear whether London will step in to help after Brexit.
> 
> The frustration of the situation has seen some Anguillans make calls for independence.
> 
> "As an independent country, we are much better off," DJ Hammer said. "You'll be able to fend for yourself, because the British government relationship with Anguilla as it stands now, I am not sure we are getting a fair shake."


Since the referendum was announced I understood it to be UK wide. I couldn't understand why Gibraltar had a say yet none of the other colonies did. I have my suspicions but I better keep that to myself!

Not many people had heard of the Falklands before the conflict/war. Likewise with Angullia. I certainly didn't!

Which begs the question. Were these colonies deliberately excluded from the vote, or was this neglect through incompetence?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Since the referendum was announced I understood it to be UK wide. I couldn't understand why Gibraltar had a say yet none of the other colonies did. I have my suspicions but I better keep that to myself!
> 
> Not many people had heard of the Falklands before the conflict/war. Likewise with Angullia. I certainly didn't!
> 
> Which begs the question. Were these colonies deliberately excluded from the vote, or was this neglect through incompetence?


Sensible Option
Ask an MP in Parliament (Send a letter to Dominic Raab for instance and see what reply you get) as they are the ones who decided who and who cannot vote in the referendum of 2016 and who would be the ones to give you the most informative answer. There's no point asking on here as no one difinitively knows why Parliament excluded the British territories.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sensible Option
> Ask an MP in Parliament (Send a letter to Dominic Raab for instance and see what reply you get) as they are the ones who decided who and who cannot vote in the referendum of 2016 and who would be the ones to give you the most informative answer. There's no point asking on here as no one difinitively knows why Parliament excluded the British territories.


I was inviting thoughts on this from others for reasons of a debate.

I would be wasting my time contacting Dominic Rabb or our local Labour Party for that matter.

Their answer would probably be the same as your own.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I was inviting thoughts on this from others for reasons of a debate.
> 
> I would be wasting my time contacting Dominic Rabb or our local Labour Party for that matter.
> 
> Their answer would probably be the same as your own.


Personally I am not in the mood for a fresh debate/arguement as no one would be right on this as the remain voters on this thread would just argue they are right all the time so it would be pointless. The only way to get a sensible reply to the question you are asking is to ask MP's directly as they are the ones that voted who should and should not be allowed to vote in the EU referendum 2016 and therefore would have the answer.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Since the referendum was announced I understood it to be UK wide. I couldn't understand why Gibraltar had a say yet none of the other colonies did. I have my suspicions but I better keep that to myself!
> 
> Not many people had heard of the Falklands before the conflict/war. Likewise with Angullia. I certainly didn't!
> 
> Which begs the question. Were these colonies deliberately excluded from the vote, or was this neglect through incompetence?


The answer is quite simple, with nothing at all sinister about it!

Of all the British Overseas Territories the only one that is part of the EU is Gibraltar and in theory directly affected by the outcome.

In reality however the others will be affected albeit indirectly, as some of the territories will lose any future EU funding.

Anguilans for example are "British Overseas Citizens" and their passports reflect it










The Gibraltar passport on the other hand is exactly the same as it is for you and I










I didn't have a vote in the referendum because although I'm a British citizen I haven't lived in the UK for the past 15 years.

It also I think, would depend what type of British citizenship you have whether you had a vote or not

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> The answer is quite simple, with nothing at all sinister about it!
> 
> Of all the British Overseas Territories the only one that is part of the EU is Gibraltar and in theory directly affected by the outcome.
> 
> In reality however the others will be affected albeit indirectly, as some of the territories will lose any future EU funding.
> 
> Anguilans for example are "British Overseas Citizens" and their passports reflect it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gibraltar passport on the other hand is exactly the same as it is for you and I
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't have a vote in the referendum because although I'm a British citizen I haven't lived in the UK for the past 15 years.
> 
> It also I think, would depend what type of British citizenship you have whether you had a vote or not
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality


Well that makes perfect sense why they were excluded. Sorry I didn't think of that simple fact. Well there you go @KittenKong there is your answer


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that makes perfect sense why they were excluded. Sorry I didn't think of that simple fact. Well there you go @KittenKong there is your answer


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


>


Please follow what is being said instead of pulling funny faces. I was replying to @Magyarmum and @Magyarmum's reply was a perfect response to @KittenKong's question hence why I added @KittenKong into the reply to @Magyarmum's reply.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I was inviting thoughts on this from others for reasons of a debate.
> 
> I would be wasting my time contacting Dominic Rabb or our local Labour Party for that matter.
> 
> Their answer would probably be the same as your own.


As @Magyarmum says, it was simply because Gibraltar is in the EU and the other UK overseas bits and pieces are not. Eligibility mirrored that for a General Election, and then extended it a bit. This is from the Hansard record of debate on the Referendum bill. Speaking is Philip Hammond, who was Foreign Secretary at the time.

The Bill also sets out the entitlement to vote in the referendum. Since this is an issue of national importance, the parliamentary franchise is the right starting point. It means that British citizens in the UK or resident abroad for less than 15 years and resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens can take part. The Bill extends the franchise in two very limited respects: to Members of the other place who meet certain qualifications and to Commonwealth citizens resident in Gibraltar. Members of the other place cannot take part in elections to this House on the grounds that they are already represented in Parliament, but it is clearly right that the franchise should be extended to them in the referendum. Gibraltar will also be deeply affected by its outcome. It is part of the European Union and its economy is closely bound to its relationship with the EU. Of course, Gibraltar already takes part in elections to the European Parliament as part of the South West of England. During debates on the private Member's Bill in the previous Parliament, there was cross-party support for Gibraltar's inclusion. I hope that that will remain.

Some will argue that we should extend the franchise further to 16 and 17-year-olds, perhaps, or even to citizens of other EU countries resident here. We do not agree. This is an issue of national importance about Britain's relationship with the European Union and it is right that the Westminster parliamentary franchise should be the basis for consulting the British people. I concede that there are those in the House who will wish to debate whether that franchise itself should be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds, but the Government are not persuaded and that is a debate for another day. It would be wrong to include 16 and 17-year-olds in this referendum as an addition to the Westminster franchise.

I reject, too, the suggestion that EU citizens living in the UK should be included. The referendum is about delivering a pledge to the British people to consult them about the future of their country. It would be a travesty to seek to include EU nationals whose interests might be very different from those of the British people.​
The 15 year residency rule was subsequently challenged in the Courts, and the case rejected.

As Hammond expected, there was a lot of argument that 16 & 17 year olds should be included because this affected their future so much, but that was rejected. It would be speculative to suggest why.


----------



## KittenKong

Thanks all for explaining that.

Quite a lot of element of unfairness I think but I wouldn't expect Brexiters to agree to that!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Thanks all for explaining that.
> 
> Quite a lot of element of unfairness I think but I wouldn't expect Brexiters to agree to that!


 Some remainers might disagree with you as well, so why suggest that Brexitiers wouldn't agree with you? It sounds as if you are looking to place blame for who and who couldn't vote with Brexitiers. Well can I correct you. The whole of Parliament (SNP, Labour, Lib Dems, Green Party, DUP, Sinn Fein, UKIP and Conservatives all had a say and) voted through the rules on the referendum after debates in the chambers etc (Most of the MP's voted to remain). The courts agreed with the rules so where is there unfairness? I think the unfairness arises when some remainers blame brexitiers and leave voters for something that was voted for by remainers. :Muted

If that is to confusing for you most MP's in Parliament voted remain so why blame Brexitiers and leave voters for something the MP's voted for?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Thanks all for explaining that.
> 
> Quite a lot of element of unfairness I think but I wouldn't expect Brexiters to agree to that!


The 16-17 year olds are 18-19 now, so if there is another referendum they will no doubt have a say, and maybe a decisive one.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Some remainers might disagree with you as well, so why suggest that Brexitiers wouldn't agree with you? It sounds as if you are looking to place blame for who and who couldn't vote with Brexitiers. Well can I correct you. The whole of Parliament (SNP, Labour, Lib Dems, Green Party, DUP, Sinn Fein, UKIP and Conservatives all had a say and) voted through the rules on the referendum after debates in the chambers etc (Most of the MP's voted to remain). The courts agreed with the rules so where is there unfairness? I think the unfairness arises when some remainers blame brexitiers and leave voters for something that was voted for by remainers. :Muted
> 
> If that is to confusing for you most MP's in Parliament voted remain so why blame Brexitiers and leave voters for something the MP's voted for?


Perhaps it was a little unfair on me to target all Brexiters under the same brush regarding that.

I was referring to Farage saying a narrow majority for remain wouldn't be the end of the matter, yet many Brexiters throw a tantrum at the suggestion of this applying to a similary narrow Leave victory as well.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.facebook.com/917561391746816/posts/1101379683364985/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The 16-17 year olds are 18-19 now, so if there is another referendum they will no doubt have a say, and maybe a decisive one.


and the 14 and 15 year olds of 2016 will now be 16 and 17 and will be complaining they couldn't take part in any new referendum so the UK would get stuck in having referendums every 2 years, a neverendum.


----------



## noushka05

Neither can I :Smuggrin

*Emma Kennedy*‏Verified account @EmmaKennedy
I can't wait for the Brexiters who don't give a toss about what happens to Northern Ireland having to work out what they feel about giving back the Falklands to Argentina
when they make it a condition of us joining the WTO.

See also: Brexiters explaining how they're A-OK with the WTO whose bureaucrats they don't vote for

See also: explaining how they're really looking forward to welcoming Freedom of Movement with our WTO partners (it's all fine as long as they're not from Eastern Europe, right?)

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> and the 14 and 15 year olds of 2016 will now be 16 and 17 and will be complaining they couldn't take part in any new referendum so the *UK would get stuck in having referendums every 2 years*, a neverendum.


The soundbite has popular appeal, but I think you know that's always been a quite spurious argument intended to prevent a single referendum on the outcome of the negotiations in case the People have changed their minds. But it probably won't happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The soundbite has popular appeal, but I think you know that's always been a quite spurious argument intended to prevent a single referendum on the outcome of the negotiations in case the People have changed their minds. But it probably won't happen.


It might be a soundbite to you but think logically about it. I could say that you keep saying soundbites about 16 and 17 year olds not being able to vote in 2016. The rules at the time voted by every MP in Parliament disallowed them to vote as the legal voting age in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is that you have to be 18 to vote. But what's the point. We'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Elles

Looks like people want to include anyone they think might vote remain. The majority of 16 year olds will probably be like the majority of 18 year olds and neither vote, nor attempt to be informed on what they might be voting for. What makes people think 16 year olds will make an informed and educated decision and turn up at the polling booths?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It might be a soundbite to you but think logically about it. I could say that you keep saying soundbites about 16 and 17 year olds not being able to vote in 2016. The rules at the time voted by every MP in Parliament disallowed them to vote as the legal voting age in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is that you have to be 18 to vote. But what's the point. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Well not really. Since I didn't say that 16-17 year olds should be able to vote we'll just have to agree to agree.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Looks like people want to include anyone they think might vote remain. The majority of 16 year olds will probably be like the majority of 18 year olds and neither vote, nor attempt to be informed on what they might be voting for. What makes people think 16 year olds will make an informed and educated decision and turn up at the polling booths?


What people? Who is saying that 16-17 year olds should be able to vote?

There was talk about it in the Referendum Bill debate, where Caroline Lucas, Hillary Benn and Alex Salmond, among others, proposed the idea, but it was turned down.


----------



## Elles

You just answered your own question. Random people and politicians want 16 and 17 year olds to vote if there’s another go and think they should have had a vote last time. Unlike old people, whom they think shouldn’t have been allowed to vote at all. If they’re not senile, they’re brainwashed by 40 years of media hate and they’ll be dead anyway.

Ageism isn’t fun is it?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Looks like people want to include anyone they think might vote remain. The majority of 16 year olds will probably be like the majority of 18 year olds and neither vote, nor attempt to be informed on what they might be voting for. What makes people think 16 year olds will make an informed and educated decision and turn up at the polling booths?


I had some rather interesting (for me) conversations with my grandson whilst he was staying with me last week. He's 22 years old and has just completed his apprenticeship with a shipyard that builds super yachts and could have had a secure reasonably well paid job had he chosen to stay with them.

Instead he and two of his friends who finished their apprenticeships at the same time now have work visas for Australia, because as my grandson said although initially he was really interested in Brexit with all its implications, he and his friends have got so fed up with all the bickering and nastiness that's going on, they decided to leave the UK and only come back when all the silliness is over..

I wonder how many young people feel this way?

My 24 year old granddaughter will be over next week and I'll be interested to hear her views


----------



## Elles

My daughter is more interested in her work and dogs than any Brexit shenanigans. She’s 26 now.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My daughter is more interested in her work and dogs than any Brexit shenanigans. She's 26 now.


My son says he is happy to have options of another passport


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You just answered your own question. *Random people and politicians want 16 and 17 year olds to vote if there's another go *and think they should have had a vote last time. Unlike old people, whom they think shouldn't have been allowed to vote at all. If they're not senile, they're brainwashed by 40 years of media hate and they'll be dead anyway.
> 
> Ageism isn't fun is it?


I'm obviously missing something, but who are these people? I haven't seen anyone saying that 16-17 year olds should be voting if there is another referendum? The names I mentioned took part in the referendum debate 3 years ago.


----------



## noushka05

Pity theres no magic money tree for our NHS, our firefighters, police, councils, social care.............

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy
Government advertising £50,000 jobs to "respond to and recover from civil emergencies of all types" as a result of Brexit.


I repeat: We do not have to do this

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-being-hired-to-handle-post-brexit-disruption

Contingency plans for a no-deal departure drawn up by the National Police Coordination Centre *warned that shortages of medicine could "feed civil disorder"*, while price rises could prompt "widespread protest which could then escalate into disorder".

*The document said there could be an increase in crime, notably theft and robbery, amid shortages of food and drugs, as well as the "expectation that more people will become ill"*.

Part of the report said: "There is an expectation that crime not directly connected to Brexit will rise, as acquisitive crime will habitually rise in the event of restricted availability of goods."


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> My son says he is happy to have options of another passport


Funny you should mention second passports.

Of my four grandchildren only the one that's just been to see me was born in the UK.

My granddaughter was born in Australia and would have been eligible for an Australian passport as well as a British one had she not been born a month early.

I have a grandson who was born in South Africa who has dual nationality and has both a South African and a British passport, but he and his South African mum have lived in France for the past 8 years which makes him eligible for French citizenship and passport as well.

My youngest grandson was born in France and has both a French and a British passport but doesn't speak a word of English bless him!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Funny you should mention second passports.
> 
> Of my four grandchildren only the one that's just been to see me was born in the UK.
> 
> My granddaughter was born in Australia and would have been eligible for an Australian passport as well as a British one had she not been born a month early.
> 
> I have a grandson who was born in South Africa who has dual nationality and has both a South African and a British passport, but he and his South African mum have lived in France for the past 8 years which makes him eligible for French citizenship and passport as well.
> 
> My youngest grandson was born in France and has both a French and a British passport but doesn't speak a word of English bless him!


I was born in Northern Ireland and I am entitled to a British and Irish passport but will probably never get an Irish passport as I can't speak Irish :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I had some rather interesting (for me) conversations with my grandson whilst he was staying with me last week. He's 22 years old and has just completed his apprenticeship with a shipyard that builds super yachts and could have had a secure reasonably well paid job had he chosen to stay with them.
> 
> Instead he and two of his friends who finished their apprenticeships at the same time now have work visas for Australia, because as my grandson said although initially he was really interested in Brexit with all its implications, he and his friends have got so fed up with all the bickering and nastiness that's going on, they decided to leave the UK and only come back when all the silliness is over..
> 
> *I wonder how many young people feel this way?*
> 
> My 24 year old granddaughter will be over next week and I'll be interested to hear her views


From those I know with highly desireable skills in the world market (such as medical skills and technical specialisms), many are holding it as an option to consider.

How many will end up going through with it is another matter, but I expect some significant number will. I would also expect there to be foreign countries and companies actively encouraging UK specialists to emigrate by offering opportunities and levels of recompense we can't, particularly if we can't agree on an exit strategy that allows certain areas (such as research and development) to continue unhindered. Personally I am not really tempted myself, but if I were faced with the prospect of unemployment or not being able to find work in my specialism within the UK, then as long as I could take the cats I may consider an overseas move.


----------



## Arnie83

Tony Blair - yeah I know, but knowledgeable nonetheless, so it's silly to dismiss him - has been interviewed by Reuters, reported in the Grauniad ...

Blair, the former Labour prime minister, said that, if the UK were to hold a second referendum, the EU would make a "much more attractive offer" to persuade people to vote remain. He said:
If [Theresa May] actually decided that, in the event of this being paralysed in parliament, she was going to put it back to the people, then I think one other thing would happen, which would be really interesting. I think if she did that, in my view Europe would step forward and would be prepared to negotiate a much more attractive offer for Britain staying.​Blair was not pressed on what this might be, or why he was so confident, but he seemed to be referring to changes to the free movement rules that might allow the UK government to take a tougher stance on immigration. He has said before that he thinks EU leaders might be willing to change immigration rules to keep the UK in the union, but today he sounded more confident than he has done in the past that such an offer would be forthcoming.​
Interesting. Is this a gut feel of his, I wonder, or does he know something we don't? (He obviously does, but you know what I mean!) EU-wide changes re freedom of movement have been mooted more than once over the last couple of years.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Tony Blair - yeah I know, but knowledgeable nonetheless, so it's silly to dismiss him - has been interviewed by Reuters, reported in the Grauniad ...
> 
> Blair, the former Labour prime minister, said that, if the UK were to hold a second referendum, the EU would make a "much more attractive offer" to persuade people to vote remain. He said:
> If [Theresa May] actually decided that, in the event of this being paralysed in parliament, she was going to put it back to the people, then I think one other thing would happen, which would be really interesting. I think if she did that, in my view Europe would step forward and would be prepared to negotiate a much more attractive offer for Britain staying.​Blair was not pressed on what this might be, or why he was so confident, but he seemed to be referring to changes to the free movement rules that might allow the UK government to take a tougher stance on immigration. He has said before that he thinks EU leaders might be willing to change immigration rules to keep the UK in the union, but today he sounded more confident than he has done in the past that such an offer would be forthcoming.​
> Interesting. Is this a gut feel of his, I wonder, or does he know something we don't? (He obviously does, but you know what I mean!) EU-wide changes re freedom of movement have been mooted more than once over the last couple of years.


Its not silly to dismiss him . he is an attention seeker and there is nothing concrete in what he has said. Wishful thinking on his part, perhaps ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Tony Blair - yeah I know, but knowledgeable nonetheless, so it's silly to dismiss him - has been interviewed by Reuters, reported in the Grauniad ...
> 
> Blair, the former Labour prime minister, said that, if the UK were to hold a second referendum, the EU would make a "much more attractive offer" to persuade people to vote remain. He said:
> If [Theresa May] actually decided that, in the event of this being paralysed in parliament, she was going to put it back to the people, then I think one other thing would happen, which would be really interesting. I think if she did that, in my view Europe would step forward and would be prepared to negotiate a much more attractive offer for Britain staying.​Blair was not pressed on what this might be, or why he was so confident, but he seemed to be referring to changes to the free movement rules that might allow the UK government to take a tougher stance on immigration. He has said before that he thinks EU leaders might be willing to change immigration rules to keep the UK in the union, but today he sounded more confident than he has done in the past that such an offer would be forthcoming.​
> Interesting. Is this a gut feel of his, I wonder, or does he know something we don't? (He obviously does, but you know what I mean!) EU-wide changes re freedom of movement have been mooted more than once over the last couple of years.


Cameron tried to get a better deal and didn't get one. It's absolute nonsense what Blair is saying or should I say delusional. Blair cannot be trusted what so ever. He took this country to war on false pretenses. Our Soldiers and citizens (aid workers) died because of his false information he used to take this country to war.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Its not silly to dismiss him . he is an attention seeker and there is nothing concrete in what he has said. Wishful thinking on his part, perhaps ?


Fair enough. I wouldn't dismiss the idea so quickly.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Cameron tried to get a better deal and didn't get one.* It's absolute nonsense what Blair is saying or should I say delusional. Blair cannot be trusted what so ever. He took this country to war on false pretenses. Our Soldiers and citizens (aid workers) died because of his false information he used to take this country to war.


Things change.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Things change.


Yeah right. Dream on. The EU are not willing to change free movement. Stop trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. The EU want the UK to accept the free movement of goods, people etc etc. So what has changed? Nothing.

Blair is lying and so are those who believe him.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm obviously missing something, but who are these people? I haven't seen anyone saying that 16-17 year olds should be voting if there is another referendum? The names I mentioned took part in the referendum debate 3 years ago.


People on this thread and out in the Internet generally have complained that 16 and 17 year olds didn't get a say. One would conclude from that, that if there is another referendum, they would want 16 and 17 year olds to vote in it.  They are often the same people who have said that old people shouldn't be able to vote, as it won't affect them.

Still. I think maybe we can agree that there are some who would like 16 and 17 year olds to vote and feel that they are more relevant than older people? There seems a list of people that might vote remain, that remain voters would like to include next time. I'm guessing they wouldn't be mentioned if it was thought they might vote leave. If 17 year olds were out waving placards that said 'Brexit means Brexit, get on with it' and 'Poo the Eu' or something, Remainers would be saying they're too young to vote and leavers would be saying they're not.


----------



## Elles

I think Freedom of movement may well change, not least because the Eu want to keep its spot and more than the U.K. are complaining about it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yeah right. Dream on. The EU are not willing to change free movement. Stop trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. The EU want the UK to accept the free movement of goods, people etc etc. So what has changed? Nothing.
> 
> Blair is lying and so are those who believe him.


You do come out with some provocative statements, don't you!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You do come out with some provocative statements, don't you!


Good debates have a certain amount of heat in them. 

Sorry but I am not rolling over and accepting Blair's comments. He lead this country to war on lies. He cannot be trusted.

Regarding free movement the EU want the UK to accept the freedoms of movement so straight away Blair's comments are blown out of the water.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think Freedom of movement may well change, not least because the Eu want to keep its spot and *more than the U.K. are complaining about it*.


Exactly. That was what my comment was based on.

From Sky News
Austria's vice-chancellor has called for EU member states to discuss reform of free movement.

Other EU member states have previously voiced concern about free movement rules.​
I've read several other comments from different officials saying the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Exactly. That was what my comment was based on.
> 
> From Sky News
> Austria's vice-chancellor has called for EU member states to discuss reform of free movement.
> 
> Other EU member states have previously voiced concern about free movement rules.​
> I've read several other comments from different officials saying the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me at all.


But doesn't Austria have a far right government? Do you really think the EU will listen to Austria? I don't.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Good debates have a certain amount of heat in them.
> 
> Sorry but I am not rolling over and accepting Blair's comments. He lead this country to war on lies.


I try very hard neither to introduce nor respond to such heat, since that would only increase the temperature. I prefer to deal, instead, with the facts of a situation.

Whatever Blair's failings regarding Iraq might or might not have been, they have no relevance whatsoever when considering his knowledge of European politics. And conceding that there might be something behind what he says is not exactly 'rolling over', with its implications of blind acceptance.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But doesn't Austria have a far right government? Do you really think the EU will listen to Austria? I don't.


And the other EU member states who have also voiced their concern?

Things change.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And the other EU member states who have also voiced their concern?
> 
> Things change.


Other EU states have voiced their concerns yes. Has the EU addressed it. No they have so far brushed it under the carpet. Every country in the EU signed up to the freedoms of movement which the EU have said during the negotiations with the UK that they will not budge on the freedoms of movement.

You keep saying "Things Change". When?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Other EU states have voiced their concerns yes. Has the EU addressed it. No they have so far brushed it under the carpet. Every country signed up to the freedoms of movement which the EU have said during the negotiations with the UK that they will not budge on the freedoms of movement.
> 
> You keep saying "Things Change". When?


All the time. Change is the only constant.

Some leavers have told me that the EU has changed too much since we joined it and that's why they wanted to leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> All the time. Change is the only constant.
> 
> Some leavers have told me that the EU has changed too much since we joined it and that's why they wanted to leave.


Yes the trade agreement the UK originally signed up to has changed into something no one originally voted for in the original referendum.

The EU will not budge on the freedoms of movement every country in the EU signed up to them. The EU are never in any rush to reform anything. This is why the UK is better off out. In the EU 28 countries have to agree to any reforms and all the areas in Brussels this is why nothing happens at any speed.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Cameron tried to get a better deal and didn't get one. It's absolute nonsense what Blair is saying or should I say delusional. Blair cannot be trusted what so ever. He took this country to war on false pretenses. Our Soldiers and citizens (aid workers) died because of his false information he used to take this country to war.


Here we go again. Blair backed the US in going to war with Iraq. Why not have a go at GW Bush instead or as well?

No GW Bush, no Iraq War. Simples.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. Blair backed the US in going to war with Iraq. Why not have a go at GW Bush instead or as well?
> 
> No GW Bush, no Iraq War. Simples.


Not true.
Blair was responsible for the UK's engagement in the war. He is a war criminal and got away with it. I hope he can sleep at night knowing he sent the UK's soldiers to their deaths because they where poorly equiped and the aid workers as well? Blair is responsible and should be ashamed. SIMPLES.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Not true.
> Blair was responsible for the UK's engagement in the war. He is a war criminal and got away with it. I hope he can sleep at night knowing he sent the UK's soldiers to their deaths because they where poorly equiped and the aid workers as well? Blair is responsible and should be ashamed. SIMPLES.


He's not the only leader to make mistakes. At the time I agreed with him whole hearted about sending in the troops.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Don't care anyway about Blair. He just pops his head up now and again with meaningless banter. He is not doing the negotiations and hasn't got a clue like Corbyn.


----------



## Elles

U.K. soldiers volunteered to go to help the Iraqi people who were suffering under a dictatorship. The Americans claimed they had evidence that Saddam Hussein was killing his own people with chemical weapons and storing wmd.

Our people didn’t want to see another ww2 where ordinary people asked for help and got none until millions were already dead. I think Tony Blair was as fooled as the rest of us. It’s nearly always follow the money these days.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> U.K. soldiers volunteered to go to help the Iraqi people who were suffering under a dictatorship.


In that joining the armed forces is (thankfully) a voluntary act these days or do you believe there was some sort of poll? My OH never got his ballot paper.


----------



## Elles

Yes, in that joining is voluntary. Many joined at the time because of it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> U.K. soldiers volunteered to go to help the Iraqi people who were suffering under a dictatorship. The Americans claimed they had evidence that Saddam Hussein was killing his own people with chemical weapons and storing wmd.
> 
> Our people didn't want to see another ww2 where ordinary people asked for help and got none until millions were already dead. I think Tony Blair was as fooled as the rest of us. It's nearly always follow the money these days.


This is my problem - if he can be fooled he is s fool, he was not the rest of us but PM .
If and this IMO he knew as well as American leaders that WoMD is just fake news but the war will be good for business than he is a scum. 
So or a fool or worse. He might be right about EU but I would rather he did not represent Britain ever again. 
He is an expert though on how being BFF with USA might embroil Britain in unnecessary conflict far far away and staying in EU is a better option.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*UK and Brussels close to agreeing Brexit deal*

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/30fbcb64-cd73-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab

What a mess though. She is prepared to sell out the DUP and keep Northern Ireland in the single market. The DUP are prepared to withdraw there support to keep May in power and vote against the budget. Her inner circle cabinet ministers are being informed this evening the UK will be in a customs union with the EU and 2 ministers are prepared to quit.


> Two Eurosceptic cabinet ministers - Andrea Leadsom, leader of the Commons, and Esther McVey, work and pensions secretary - are opposed to the plan. Tory officials speculated they could quit.


This woman should never have been trusted with Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> *UK and Brussels close to agreeing Brexit deal*
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/30fbcb64-cd73-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
> 
> What a mess though. She is prepared to sell out the DUP and keep Northern Ireland in the single market. The DUP are prepared to withdraw there support to keep May in power and vote against the budget. Her inner circle cabinet ministers are being informed this evening the UK will be in a customs union with the EU and 2 ministers are prepared to quit.
> 
> This woman should never have been trusted with Brexit.


Oh yes, our BoJo would have done sooo much better.
Really?

Remind me who else was there fighting for the job?
Loathsome?
Slimy traitor Gove?
Didn't Farage offer to supervise Brexit.

There is no such a thing as a good Brexit.
It is not Exodus from Egyptian slavery.

Britain looks foolish not because of May.

Obviously easier to blame May saying we could have had unicorns Brexit but she didn't deliver than to say the whole idea was rubbish.
Who you think will make EU accept Brexit on British or DUP terms?
Nothern Ireland, Gibraltar, Falklands have a lot to lose.
May's fault is that? She did not drag you into Brexit by your hair.
EU fault?
They did not kick us out.

All she does, better or worse is just damage limitations.

I remember before referendum you were in favour of Single Market ?

Tell you one thing- I recently get bunches of letters from big companies in UK informing clients that the international part of their business moved to EU due to Brexit.
Lots of it goes to Malta for example.

That is reality. Financial services will take a hit and they are the backbone of British budget and the cleanest industry - just computers and offices. Unfortunately also the easiest to relocate. Unplug, plug.

Brexit was utopia, propaganda, assumptions, wishful thinking, nostalgia and fake news.

Not connected to any reality and experts were warning about it, but who needs experts?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> This is my problem - if he can be fooled he is s fool, he was not the rest of us but PM .
> If and this IMO he knew as well as American leaders that WoMD is just fake news but the war will be good for business than he is a scum.
> So or a fool or worse. He might be right about EU but I would rather he did not represent Britain ever again.
> He is an expert though on how being BFF with USA might embroil Britain in unnecessary conflict far far away and staying in EU is a better option.


It's a good distraction technique though isn't it. Mention Blair and there's cries of Iraq, likewise with Nick Clegg, "Ignore him, he went into coalition with the Tories".

The two speak a lot of sense but are ignored for these reasons.

I stand by what I said a few threads ago 100% about Blair. Turning this into an anti Blair thread is the perfect distraction.

Iraq was years ago, Brexit is happening now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh yes, our BoJo would have done sooo much better.
> Really?
> 
> Remind me who else was there fighting for the job?
> Loathsome?
> Slimy traitor Gove?
> Didn't Farage offer to supervise Brexit.
> 
> There is no such a thing as a good Brexit.
> It is not Exodus from Egyptian slavery.
> 
> Britain looks foolish not because of May.
> 
> Obviously easier to blame May saying we could have had unicorns Brexit but she didn't deliver than to say the whole idea was rubbish.
> Who you think will make EU accept Brexit on British or DUP terms?
> Nothern Ireland, Gibraltar, Falklands have a lot to lose.
> May's fault is that? She did not drag you into Brexit by your hair.
> EU fault?
> They did not kick us out.
> 
> All she does, better or worse is just damage limitations.
> 
> I remember before referendum you were in favour of Single Market ?
> 
> Tell you one thing- I recently get bunches of letters from big companies in UK informing clients that the international part of their business moved to EU due to Brexit.
> Lots of it goes to Malta for example.
> 
> That is reality. Financial services will take a hit and they are the backbone of British budget and the cleanest industry - just computers and offices. Unfortunately also the easiest to relocate. Unplug, plug.


Falklands won't lose out they aren't in the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Falklands won't lose out they aren't in the EU.


Read former posts, Argentina can block Britain on WTO ok?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It's a good distraction technique though isn't it. Mention Blair and there's cries of Iraq, likewise with Nick Clegg, "Ignore him, he went into coalition with the Tories".
> 
> The two speak a lot of sense but are ignored for these reasons.
> 
> I stand by what I said a few threads ago 100% about Blair. Turning this into an anti Blair thread is the perfect distraction.
> 
> Iraq was years ago, Brexit is happening now.


I didn't bring Blair up. Arnie did. I responded to comments arnie made.

Yes Brexit is happening now or should I say the shafting May is giving leave supporters and Brexitiers. This woman should never have been trusted as she is a remainer and is seeking a remain style Brexit. Theresa the Appeaser.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Read former posts, Argentina can block Britain on WTO ok?


No it won't. You are speculating.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> It's a good distraction technique though isn't it. Mention Blair and there's cries of Iraq, likewise with Nick Clegg, "Ignore him, he went into coalition with the Tories".
> 
> The two speak a lot of sense but are ignored for these reasons.
> 
> I stand by what I said a few threads ago 100% about Blair. Turning this into an anti Blair thread is the perfect distraction.
> 
> Iraq was years ago, Brexit is happening now.


Unfortunately both Clegg and Blair failed rather spectacularly and the trust is gone.

I am truly disgusted by both. Career politicians, who brought their parties into disrepute.
Clegg killed LibDems by his Uturn just be be deputy PM. 
Thanks to him I will never support that party as long as he is there.

I would rather have David Miliband or even Vince Cable instead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Theresa May's brexit is this:

Remain in a customs union (she claims temporarily) - shaft leave voters.
Northern Ireland remains in the single market (she claims during the backstop period) - shaft DUP who are propping up May's Government.
Let's see if Leadsom (Leader of the House of Commons) and McVey (Department of Works and Pensions Secretary) will quit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't bring Blair up. Arnie did. I responded to comments arnie made.
> 
> Yes Brexit is happening now or should I say the shafting May is giving leave supporters and Brexitiers. This woman should never have been trusted as she is a remainer and is seeking a remain style Brexit. Theresa the Appeaser.


So what do you want? No deal? Go to hell Brexit?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So what do you want? No deal? Go to hell Brexit?


You know what I want. No deal.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> What a mess though. She is prepared to sell out the DUP and keep Northern Ireland in the single market. The DUP are prepared to withdraw there support to keep May in power and vote against the budget. Her inner circle cabinet ministers are being informed this evening the UK will be in a customs union with the EU and 2 ministers are prepared to quit.
> 
> This woman should never have been trusted with Brexit.


Whoever got shafted with the Brexit poison chalice would have had similar problems. Granted, there would have been some variation on the theme, but the core problems would have been the same, and just as impossible to solve without compromise on both sides, not just the EU. Whether or not Someone Else would have been better at negotiating with the EU we will never know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I sense a leadership challenge brewing (and Rees Mogg although he has stated doesn't want the job is favourite to win).


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I sense a leadership challenge brewing.


Really???? 
:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Really????
> :Hilarious


Yes. Really. Watch the news and you will see I am right. 

Support for May's Government will quickly diminish if she goes ahead with this. Already the DUP have said they will withdraw support to keep her in power as soon as the next 24 hours.


----------



## Elles

It wouldn’t matter who was in charge, to remain voters anything less than a u-turn and remaining in the Eu is a fail.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> I sense a leadership challenge brewing (and Rees Mogg although he has stated doesn't want the job is favourite to win).


Personally, I can't see anyone wanting the job until after it's all over. Still plenty of poison left in the cup...


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Cabinet ministers could quit over Theresa May's 'Brexit betrayal' as PM prepares 'to pay off DUP '*

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/11/cabinet-ministers-could-quit-theresa-mays-brexit-betrayal-pm/amp/

I wouldn't like to be in Theresa May's shoes as PM. 3 Cabinet ministers may quit now. She is preparing to pick money off the magic money tree growing at the back of 10 Downing Street to buy the DUP's support.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Cabinet ministers could quit over Theresa May's 'Brexit betrayal' as PM prepares 'to pay off DUP '*
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/11/cabinet-ministers-could-quit-theresa-mays-brexit-betrayal-pm/amp/
> 
> I wouldn't like to be in Theresa May's shoes as PM. 3 Cabinet ministers may quit now.


She's probably enjoying every minute of it. It wouldn't be any skin of her nose to replace them with more, "Yes men".


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> She's probably enjoying every minute of it. It wouldn't be any skin of her nose to replace them with more, "Yes men".


You're probably right


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes. Really. Watch the news and you will see I am right.
> 
> Support for May's Government will quickly diminish if she goes ahead with this. Already the DUP have said they will withdraw support to keep her in power as soon as the next 24 hours.


My post was ironic.

It is incredible how easy is to sacrifice other people and their livelihoods for own beliefs if it does not affect you directly and you cannot see it might - any thoughts how No Deal will pan out for NI, Wales, Gibraltar, the City ?
You don't care at all?
Not your job at stake? You don't live there?
No mortgage to pay, no kids to educate?

If national budget shrinks it might bite even you.
It will shrink.

Yes, Brexit is very bad not only for Britain, but for the whole world.

Britain was one of leading democratic countries and had its weight, now looks diminished and ridiculous.
Who supports Brexit ? Putin, Trump, Kaczynski?
Yes, Trump won by a whisker, lost popular vote. Farage was there and Americans were looking at Britain. It might have tipped the scale and given America to Trump, which has profound effect on the whole world.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Conservatives may have to depose prime minister to 'heal wounds' - DUP MP*

The Conservatives may have to change leader to "heal wounds" and ensure its confidence and supply agreement "stays in place", a top DUP MP has told Sky News.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/cons...prime-minister-to-heal-wounds-dup-mp-11523879


----------



## Elles

Brexit clearly isn’t bad for the whole world if it’s good for Russia etc.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So Theresa May's brexit is this:
> 
> Remain in a customs union (she claims temporarily) - shaft leave voters.
> Northern Ireland remains in the single market (she claims during the backstop period) - shaft DUP who are propping up May's Government.




Ironic isn't it. The SNP want Scotland to stay in the SM. They'll argue rightly if NI has that, they'll want it too. May will of course refuse.

Yet the DUP don't want that but it looks like that's what they're getting!

Sometimes I think May is deliberately provoking conflict.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

At one time people joked about the M26 being turned into a lorry park. Well, it seems they weren't joking after all.

Should be called the lorry park of incompetence.

It's all your doing Theresa May.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-motorway-is-possible-post-brexit-lorry-park


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Brexit clearly isn't bad for the whole world if it's good for Russia etc.


I meant affect whole world... of good for Putin, he invested in it heavily.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Sometimes I think May is deliberately provoking conflict.


Yes I agree.

She is apparently picking millions of pounds off the magic money tree at the back of 10 Downing Street to give to the DUP to back her. I think the DUP are right in saying Theresa May needs to go.

A growing number of MP's yesterday across the House of Commons (including Conservative MP's) had a debate on Universal Credit pleaing for the roll out to be halted so the problems that the system currently has can be fixed after the Department of Works And Pensions MP said Universal Credit is making people poorer and putting people in debt. Downing Street ignored this. Yet Theresa May can find millions when it suits her to pay the DUP to back her.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> At one time people joked about the M26 being turned into a lorry park. Well, it seems they weren't joking after all.
> 
> Should be called the lorry park of incompetence.
> 
> It's all your doing Theresa May.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-motorway-is-possible-post-brexit-lorry-park
> 
> View attachment 371760


:Hilarious you've gotta laugh or you'd cry! Hard core brexiters will only care when the consequences of this act of reckless stupidity actually affects them.

*Sam Coates Times*‏Verified account @SamCoatesTimes 16h16 hours ago

*One day, a Kent Tory MP woke up to find a "secret" lorry park being built on the M26

What a tale*.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-...-as-parking-lot-port-dover-if-no-brexit-deal/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371757


For a vote of no confidence against the Government the House of Commons would need 433 (2 3rds) out of 650 MP's to vote this way. The numbers are just not there as 312 are Conservative MP's propped up by 10 DUP MP's. The Conservatives would have to vote against themselves to boost the numbers but this wouldn't happen.


----------



## noushka05

I can relate to so much of THIS >>>>>>>>>

1/ It's hard to isolate a star paragraph from this excellent @chrisgreybrexit blog post. The third, fourth and fifth are among the best but this one, about halfway through, is personally resonant. http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-arguments-against-another.html …










2/ Before 2016 I had a reasonable handle on how the EU operates and how it benefits us. And I was aware of its shortcomings. But I was generally in favour of it, though not obsessively or even in a way that meant I thought about it more than occasionally.

3/ Not thinking about it more than occasionally will have been the default position for most people, I would guess, regardless of how politically engaged they otherwise were or are - and it still is, I think; most of my pre-2016 follower/ees don't talk about Brexit much

4/ I'd like to be able to devote more time to engaging in non-Brexit politics. *But when Brexit will wreck everything from fighting climate change* to finding a way to embrace AI in a way that doesn't leave workers destitute, it feels dangerous to focus on anything else

5/ I used to, though, and still try. My most enduring recent political memory from before the referendum was taking a night bus home in the early hours of the morning after the 2015 general election defeat for Ed Miliband's Labour. Miliband wasn't perfect but he offered hope

6/ I'd been at a friend's election night house party and was feeling very low. My fellow passengers - some of them wretched early morning shift workers travelling into London to clean offices - looked similarly downbeat, their despair heightened by the dashed hope.

7/ At least that was my interpretation. Maybe, as Grey says, they were among the many who rarely engage with politics, the referendum being a rare foray into it. Who knows? But I felt terrible at the prospect of five more years. How little I knew of what was round the corner.

8/ But I'll be on the #PeoplesVote march on 20th October. As Grey eloquently argues (and yep, I'm well aware of confirmation bias), "the arguments against another referendum don't stack up," even if "it's probably the worst option available - except for all the others".

9/ As a coda, on Monday I wrote a thread in response to Robert Shrimsley's FT piece, which Grey also argues against. The great @guitarmoog was kind enough to engage with it, which got it some exposure. I'm pleased to see continued civilised dissent. /Ends

...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You have it in your head that I adore the Conservative Party. I don't. I voted Labour in the last General Election and explained my reasons for not wanting to back them at the next General Election and I most certainly will not vote for the Conservatives either at the next General Election. This current Government has only one use and many people will abandon them once they have acheived what was voted for in 2016.


You dont know whats in my head I can see from your posts who you do and do not support. This government has pulled off a power grab, they are gerrymandering. The tory shires have never abandoned the tory party no matter how cruel or destructive they are. They will get enough vote to keep them in power, the tories know their seats are safe in the tory heartlands. We've taken our country back alright - and gifted it to a bunch of sociopaths.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes I agree.
> 
> She is apparently picking millions of pounds off the magic money tree at the back of 10 Downing Street to give to the DUP to back her. I think the DUP are right in saying Theresa May needs to go.


I've been saying that especially after the snap GE fiasco.

Yet her loyal servants will rally around her as they always do. You'd think she's cast a spell over them or something.

Perhaps they'll ditch, (unintended rhyming slang), her on Halloween, but I'm not building my hopes up.

If and when there is a challenge against her leadership expect widespread BBC coverage of her seeking sympathy for her party not to show her any respect.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371757


Why is it shameful to appoint a Minister for Suicide Prevention?

To blame the increase of suicides on the present government policy, whilst it might have contributed to some degree is totally unjustified. What about depression and suicide due to social media, amongst athletes, football players and professional people such as doctors or dentists?

It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that a good percentage of the suicides and those suffering from depression, mainly PTSP are due to Blair and his Labour government sending troops to fight in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/4632263.stm

It should also be pointed out that this appointment is the result of a strategy started by the previous government in 2002

*This builds on the previous Government strategy, which was led by the Department of Health and was established by the Labour Government in 2002. More than this earlier initiative, however, the current iteration of the Strategy operates deliberately and explicitly at a cross-Government level which involves a variety of different, albeit overlapping, policy areas. These include health, as well as transport, social security, education, defence, media, and justice policy briefs.*

The Briefing Paper for those who can be bothered to read it!

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/CBP-8221%20(1).pdf


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I can see from your posts who you do and do not support.


Oh but you are so wrong with your assumption


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Why is it shameful to appoint a Minister for Suicide Prevention?
> 
> To to blame the increase of suicides on the present government policy, whilst it might have contributed to some degree is totally unjustified. What about depression and suicide due to social media, amongst athletes, football players and professional people such as doctors or dentists?


While you are right the government itself cannot be blamed for all cases of depression etc. they have played a significant part in it through cruel cuts. It was also hypocritical to appoint someone who reportedly voted through these cruel cuts.

And the anxiety over Brexit too, especially those in relationships with "Non British" people and of course the citizens who've lived and worked for years. Theresa May could declare then "Illegal Immigrants" overnight through the crime of earning below £50,000 as most of us do.

Yes, you're right about PTSD re Iraq etc. but don't forget the Gulf War syndrome following George Bush Snr's war eagerly backed by John Major's government.

At one time, to attempt suicide was a criminal offence. I wouldn't put it past this government to reintroduce that in the future.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Looks like people want to include anyone they think might vote remain. The majority of 16 year olds will probably be like the majority of 18 year olds and neither vote, nor attempt to be informed on what they might be voting for. What makes people think 16 year olds will make an informed and educated decision and turn up at the polling booths?


You could argue that those who got swept away by nationalistic slogans like ' make Britain great again', or believed the bus, or were sucked in by that Martin Durkin propaganda video, or voted Brexit because of absurd stories about bananas etc didn't make informed and educated decisions, Elles. Give our youngsters some credit. Many 16/17 year olds are extremely politically engaged. I saw that from the youngsters they interviewed in the run up to the Scottish referendum. Brexit will disproportionately & adversely affect the younger generations future! Yet many had no say in it.

This is very interesting.

*Votes at 16: what the UK can learn from Austria, Norway and the Crown dependencies*

http://www.democraticaudit.com/2013...om-austria-norway-and-the-crown-dependencies/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This is very interesting.
> 
> *Votes at 16: what the UK can learn from Austria, Norway and the Crown dependencies*
> 
> http://www.democraticaudit.com/2013...om-austria-norway-and-the-crown-dependencies/


Can I point out that Austria has a far right party in power. So let's let the 16 and 17 year olds vote.

Who says the 16 and 17 year olds over here in the UK would:
1) Bother Voting?
2) Vote Remain?
3) Not spoil there ballot sheets?
4) Make an informed decision?
5) Take any future referendum seriously?

I think some remainers are grasping at straws.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The German Bavarian Elections will be interesting on the 14th October 2018 as Anglea Merkel might be unseated and those lose her grip on what power she has left in Germany. People are turning to the far right AfD party over there.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-local-elections-merkel-bavaria-vote-afd-far-right-angela-merkel-cdu-a8541641.html%3famp

And no before you throw accusations I do not support the far right.

Brexit by the way did not make the far right in Germany rise up and gain populatrity it was Merkels own actions that done this.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371757





Magyarmum said:


> Why is it shameful to appoint a Minister for Suicide Prevention?
> 
> To blame the increase of suicides on the present government policy, whilst it might have contributed to some degree is totally unjustified. What about depression and suicide due to social media, amongst athletes, football players and professional people such as doctors or dentists?
> 
> It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that a good percentage of the suicides and those suffering from depression, mainly PTSP are due to Blair and his Labour government sending troops to fight in Iraq.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/4632263.stm
> 
> It should also be pointed out that this appointment is the result of a strategy started by the previous government in 2002
> 
> *This builds on the previous Government strategy, which was led by the Department of Health and was established by the Labour Government in 2002. More than this earlier initiative, however, the current iteration of the Strategy operates deliberately and explicitly at a cross-Government level which involves a variety of different, albeit overlapping, policy areas. These include health, as well as transport, social security, education, defence, media, and justice policy briefs.*
> 
> The Briefing Paper for those who can be bothered to read it!
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/CBP-8221%20(1).pdf


Also could be linked to the increase in Veganism 
https://ijbnpa.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1479-5868-9-67

"Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders. Due to the matching procedure, the findings cannot be explained by socio-demographic characteristics of vegetarians (e.g. higher rates of females, predominant residency in urban areas, high proportion of singles). The analysis of the respective ages at adoption of a vegetarian diet and onset of a mental disorder showed that the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders."

Also, the suicide rate has actually fallen over a long period, a one year increase while worrying,doesn't show a trend.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations

The government have worked very quickly as far as I can see to make sure that this small increase doesn't become a trend. They should be applauded rather than vilified on this


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that a good percentage of the suicides and those suffering from depression, mainly PTSP are due to Blair and his Labour government sending troops to fight in Iraq.


Not so far back in this thread I was told they were all volunteers and queueing up to get out there. Not how I remember it admittedly but it's knowledge someone else has.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Not so far back in this thread I was told they were all volunteers and queueing up to get out there. Not how I remember it admittedly but it's knowledge someone else has.


Odd how the biggest group on the suicides over the last few years are men of a certain age uh?

Seeing things like that would effect anyone


----------



## stockwellcat.

Our troops did not volunteer to go to Iraq they where ordered to. Blair if I remember rightly could not get the backing of Parliament to go to war so used the Royal Prerogative to send our troops to war and UK soldiers died because they where ill equipped (didn't have the right equipment) and aid workers died as well at the hands of terrorists.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh but you are so wrong with your assumption


Your posts are on the forum for all to see 



stockwellcat. said:


> Can I point out that Austria has a far right party in power. So let's let the 16 and 17 year olds vote.
> 
> Who says the 16 and 17 year olds over here in the UK would:
> 1) Bother Vote?
> 2) Vote Remain?
> 3) Not spoil there ballot sheets?
> 4) Make an informed decision?
> 
> I think some remainers are grasping at straws.


Yes we've got a far right party here too 

No one. But they have more right to determine their future than this 'diverse' bunch at last months 'leave means leave' rally do.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Why is it shameful to appoint a Minister for Suicide Prevention?
> 
> To blame the increase of suicides on the present government policy, whilst it might have contributed to some degree is totally unjustified. What about depression and suicide due to social media, amongst athletes, football players and professional people such as doctors or dentists?
> 
> It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that a good percentage of the suicides and those suffering from depression, mainly PTSP are due to Blair and his Labour government sending troops to fight in Iraq.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/4632263.stm
> 
> It should also be pointed out that this appointment is the result of a strategy started by the previous government in 2002
> 
> *This builds on the previous Government strategy, which was led by the Department of Health and was established by the Labour Government in 2002. More than this earlier initiative, however, the current iteration of the Strategy operates deliberately and explicitly at a cross-Government level which involves a variety of different, albeit overlapping, policy areas. These include health, as well as transport, social security, education, defence, media, and justice policy briefs.*
> 
> The Briefing Paper for those who can be bothered to read it!
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/CBP-8221%20(1).pdf


*Diane Abbott*‏Verified account @HackneyAbbott Oct 10
T*his is a massive spin piece. There is no new minister. Just an existing minister with an added title. And there is no new money for the local authorities and the NHS to provide necessary services "UK appoints its first minister for suicide prevention"

*



rona said:


> Also could be linked to the increase in Veganism
> https://ijbnpa.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1479-5868-9-67
> 
> "Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders. Due to the matching procedure, the findings cannot be explained by socio-demographic characteristics of vegetarians (e.g. higher rates of females, predominant residency in urban areas, high proportion of singles). The analysis of the respective ages at adoption of a vegetarian diet and onset of a mental disorder showed that the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders."
> 
> Also, the suicide rate has actually fallen over a long period, a one year increase while worrying,doesn't show a trend.
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations
> 
> The government have worked very quickly as far as I can see to make sure that this small increase doesn't become a trend. They should be applauded rather than vilified on this


No, it couldn't possibly be the massive cuts to mental health budget or the rest of the tories inhumane austerity policies. https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/16/austerity-linked-to-120000-deaths-in-landmark-study-7084916/


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *Diane Abbott*‏Verified account @HackneyAbbott Oct 10
> T*his is a massive spin piece. There is no new minister. Just an existing minister with an added title. And there is no new money for the local authorities and the NHS to provide necessary services "UK appoints its first minister for suicide prevention"
> 
> *
> 
> No, it couldn't possibly be the massive cuts to mental health budget or the rest of the tories inhumane austerity policies. https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/16/austerity-linked-to-120000-deaths-in-landmark-study-7084916/


And this too.

https://welfareweekly.com/pm-refuses-to-scrap-work-capability-assessments-despite-link-to-suicides/


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Not so far back in this thread I was told they were all volunteers and queueing up to get out there. Not how I remember it admittedly but it's knowledge someone else has.


My elder brother-in-law was a warrant officer in the army, the younger joined the air force and is now a fire officer and councillor and both of my sons joined up. It was also reported in the news that young people were joining up because of what was happening with Saddam. They wanted to go because of lies. I didn't say it was a good thing that we were lied to, or that they all came out unscathed. My youngest was in a convoy that hit an iud, his friend was killed. My eldest was injured. He used to run marathons, now the only thing he can run is a tap. All of them served in Iraq and Afghanistan. They did it to protect people.

That's how I know. I confirmed in my reply to @havoc that I meant people were voluntarily joining the army because of it, not that the army asked for volunteers among its ranks to go to Iraq.


----------



## noushka05

Why We Want Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You know what I want. No deal.


Could you just outline what specific benefits you expect from No Deal?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Our troops did not volunteer to go to Iraq they where ordered to. Blair if I remember rightly could not get the backing of Parliament to go to war so used the Royal Prerogative to send our troops to war and UK soldiers died because they where ill equipped (didn't have the right equipment) and aid workers died as well at the hands of terrorists.


I think you're confusing Theresa May's recent unilateral decision to bomb, was it Syria?, without consulting parliament.

As for Iraq, this will interest you. Only 6 currently serving Conservatives MPs voted against it.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/current-labour-mps-voted-iraq-war/amp/


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Why is it shameful to appoint a Minister for Suicide Prevention?
> 
> To blame the increase of suicides on the present government policy, whilst it might have contributed to some degree is totally unjustified. What about depression and suicide due to social media, amongst athletes, football players and professional people such as doctors or dentists?
> 
> It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that a good percentage of the suicides and those suffering from depression, mainly PTSP are due to Blair and his Labour government sending troops to fight in Iraq.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/4632263.stm
> 
> It should also be pointed out that this appointment is the result of a strategy started by the previous government in 2002
> 
> *This builds on the previous Government strategy, which was led by the Department of Health and was established by the Labour Government in 2002. More than this earlier initiative, however, the current iteration of the Strategy operates deliberately and explicitly at a cross-Government level which involves a variety of different, albeit overlapping, policy areas. These include health, as well as transport, social security, education, defence, media, and justice policy briefs.*
> 
> The Briefing Paper for those who can be bothered to read it!
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/CBP-8221%20(1).pdf





rona said:


> Also could be linked to the increase in Veganism
> https://ijbnpa.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1479-5868-9-67
> 
> "Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders. Due to the matching procedure, the findings cannot be explained by socio-demographic characteristics of vegetarians (e.g. higher rates of females, predominant residency in urban areas, high proportion of singles). The analysis of the respective ages at adoption of a vegetarian diet and onset of a mental disorder showed that the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders."
> 
> Also, the suicide rate has actually fallen over a long period, a one year increase while worrying,doesn't show a trend.
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations
> 
> The government have worked very quickly as far as I can see to make sure that this small increase doesn't become a trend. They should be applauded rather than vilified on this





KittenKong said:


> And this too.
> 
> https://welfareweekly.com/pm-refuses-to-scrap-work-capability-assessments-despite-link-to-suicides/
> 
> View attachment 371768


As usual David Schneider lampoons the sheer hypocrisy of this hidious government.

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 10
*"This is a government that gives mental health the attention it deserves" says Prime Minister whose party has cut 5000 mental health nurses and
forced young people with mental health issues to wait months and sometimes travel over 200 miles for treatment.*

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 10
*Posted without comment. #WorldMentaHealthDay #MentalHealthDay2018



















*


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

While we're talking about how shit benefit sanctions are, the DWP has sneaked out this little gem.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...it-dwp-report-study-no-evidence-a8577061.html

... all these additional sanctions in the name of austerity are fiscally "neutral", so really maintaining them just becomes an ideological attack on the worst off in society.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Not so far back in this thread I was told they were all volunteers and queueing up to get out there. Not how I remember it admittedly but it's knowledge someone else has.





Elles said:


> My elder brother-in-law was a warrant officer in the army, the younger joined the air force and is now a fire officer and councillor and both of my sons joined up. It was also reported in the news that young people were joining up because of what was happening with Saddam. They wanted to go because of lies. I didn't say it was a good thing that we were lied to, or that they all came out unscathed. My youngest was in a convoy that hit an iud, his friend was killed. My eldest was injured. He used to run marathons, now the only thing he can run is a tap. All of them served in Iraq and Afghanistan. They did it to protect people.
> 
> That's how I know. I confirmed in my reply to @havoc that I meant people were voluntarily joining the army because of it, not that the army asked for volunteers among its ranks to go to Iraq.


You took the words out of my mouth and I'm sorry to hear about your son.

To my knowledge every war wherever it might be always attracts a number of volunteers. One of my Jewish friends volunteered to fight in the 6 day war.

I'm sure you know that mercenaries some from the UK, also fought in both Afghanistan and Iraq and that G4S a UK company is the largest mercenary recruitment centre in the world.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...tre-of-global-mercenary-industry-says-charity

And that the French Foreign Legion which is made up from volunteers from all over the world and which swears allegiance to itself and not France also fought in Iraq? I have several British and German friends who were Legionnaires.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> As usual David Schneider lampoons the sheer hypocrisy of this hidious government.
> 
> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 10
> *"This is a government that gives mental health the attention it deserves" says Prime Minister whose party has cut 5000 mental health nurses and
> forced young people with mental health issues to wait months and sometimes travel over 200 miles for treatment.*
> 
> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 10
> *Posted without comment. #WorldMentaHealthDay #MentalHealthDay2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Doesn't even have to be through suicide. I don't think BBC News bothered to report this surprise surprise....

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle...topped-employment-support-allowance-sanction/


----------



## Elles

Hopefully the government announcement on a suicide minister will highlight these issues. How the vulnerable and disabled are treated is scandalous. I’m sure the government didn’t intend to kill them off with assessments. The bodies doing the assessments and the bodies dealing with claims need sorting out, which is of course down to the government.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Hopefully the government announcement on a suicide minister will highlight these issues. How the vulnerable and disabled are treated is scandalous. I'm sure the government didn't intend to kill them off with assessments. The bodies doing the assessments and the bodies dealing with claims need sorting out, which is of course down to the government.


Seriously Elles, how can you make excuses for them? The tories knew the sick & the poor would be hammered the hardest with their austerity con. They knew their massive cuts to the mental health budget would cost lives! Austerity is a political choice to shrink the state & transfer public money into private pockets. This is _calculated_ cruelty by the tories.

_*Theresa Mays SHOCKING boast at PMQS today on mental health, teaching & the NHS was an insult to the intelligence of the people of this country! 
WATCH the TRUT*_*H*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1050026371072880641


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Could you just outline what specific benefits you expect from No Deal?


:Yawn


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> :Yawn


Could you expand on that at all? With some actual benefits that you expect?


----------



## Elles

Why do you think I’m making excuses? I don’t believe any government thinks killing off the population and attacking the weak and vulnerable is a winning policy. Their ‘suicide minister’ may well bite them in the backside, by highlighting and bringing to the fore where government failure has led to unnecessary hardship and death. The bringing in of private firms where profit is the main, if not only motivator, is imho majorly to blame. There clearly weren’t the safeguards in place. I have always criticised government policy on care of the elderly, disabled and the vulnerable. Generally people have never been better off. 50% of under 5 year olds have their own tablet or iPad and yet the vulnerable are dying. It’s about time this was addressed.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> :Yawn


Oh, go on - just half a dozen?


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Arnie83 said:


> Could you expand on that at all? With some actual benefits that you expect?



Well, we'll have our sovereignty, whatever that means.
Blue passports (made in France)!
No human rights act
Weakened employment protections
Sunlit Uplands
Jam factories
Worse pizza so nobody will be fat.
...these are all things that I've been eagerly anticipating. Can't wait.

I'm definitely not being eaten alive by a growing sense of despair and the understanding that I'm probably not going to enjoy being in a real life Mad Max film. That said, I have been making sure I'm noting everybody I know's blood type so I know who to strap to the front of a Ford Fiesta as a I rampage around the wasteland.


----------



## Elles

Brexit doesn’t go far enough. It should have led to the collapse of the Eu and a new and better Europe rising from the ashes. People aren’t happy, hence all the disruption in politics. 

We aren’t leaving the Eu though, so I don’t know why people are so het up about it.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Oh, sorry, I forgot one.

A return to violence in Ireland when the Good Friday agreement breaks down.
It's alright about the border though because that haunted pencil Rees-Mogg said we could just do checks like we had during The Troubles. You know, the very thing we called The Troubles rather than The Smooth Sailings.


----------



## Elles

I’m sorry but the threat of a return to violence is no reason for voting either way on anything. Terrorists should never hold voters to ransom.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh look we have another @KittenKong with a foul mouth.


----------



## Jesthar

ErsatzNihilist said:


> It's alright about the border though because *that haunted pencil Rees-Mogg* said we could just do checks like we had during The Troubles. You know, the very thing we called The Troubles rather than The Smooth Sailings.


Oi! You have NO right to make me laugh that much in the middle of a busy office!


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

It's just words, dude. Can't hurt you. Unlike being blase about the horrors that Ireland went through.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Jesthar said:


> Oi! You have NO right to make me laugh that much in the middle of a busy office!


Sadly I can't claim credit for it, totally stole if off somebody else.


----------



## Jesthar

ErsatzNihilist said:


> *It's just words, dude. Can't hurt you.* Unlike being blase about the horrors that Ireland went through.


I would respectfully disagree with that one. Words, when used as a weapon, can do just as much damage as any blade or bullet. And the wounds can be just as horrific, even when things don't escalate to physical violence.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Jesthar said:


> I would respectfully disagree with that one. Words, when used as a weapon, can do just as much damage as any blade or bullet. And the wounds can be just as horrific, even when things don't escalate to physical violence.


Yeah, but as usual, the issue was with the use of a "swear word" rather than the assertion that the individual was "Disgusting". That's the damaging part, but arseholes like that just focus on the technicalities. That's the whole way they argue.


----------



## Elles

I see. So what are you saying then? If we don’t stay in the Eu there’ll be a return to letter bombs, bag checks and worrying about litter bins and violence in Ireland? Sounds like a threat to me. However, people like you saying I’m disgusting and ranting and swearing is just to get a reaction.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Elles said:


> I see. So what are you saying then? If we don't stay in the Eu there'll be a return to letter bombs, bag checks and worrying about litter bins and violence in Ireland? Sounds like a threat to me. However, people like you saying I'm disgusting and ranting and swearing is just to get a reaction.


It's not to get a reaction, it's my genuine opinion about people who hold this "well, it's okay if some people die" attitude. As an adult, I'm free to express myself as I see fit - if the community rejects that, I'll be banned, which will be fair.

And it absolutely is a threat, and wasn't considered by the government when they kicked all of this off. We can leave the EU, but just shrugging your shoulders at the return of those horrors makes you human slime. This is a serious issue and should have been considered to find a way through before we jumped in with both feet - but what else can you expect from a government that copy and pasted it's impact analyses from wikipedia.

Northern Ireland contains British Citizens - if we're okay with violence towards them, then I don't know what to say to you. You are filth.


----------



## stockwellcat.

ErsatzNihilist said:


> Yeah, but as usual, the issue was with the use of a "swear word" rather than the assertion that the individual was "Disgusting". That's the damaging part, but arseholes like that just focus on the technicalities. That's the whole way they argue.


This is a family forum. Children use this website as well as generally people come here to get advice about their pets. I felt you used the word to weaponise your response which could be quite threatening. Any how I did not see what was wrong with @Elles response to justify such a response.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

stockwellcat. said:


> This is a family forum. Children use this website as well as generally people come here to get advice about their pets. I felt you used the word to weaponise your response which could be quite threatening. Any how I did not see what was wrong with @Elles response to justify such a response.


All those kids browsing the Brexit threads. Lol, get out.


----------



## Jesthar

Either way, I'd rather not see this thread closed on a technicality or due to things getting personal rather than discussing the points raised in a civilised fashion. The last several Brexit threads have suffered that fate (usually engineered), so please let's not fall into this trap again.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

I will not swear again, I promise. But those people are utter filth.


----------



## stockwellcat.

ErsatzNihilist said:


> All those kids browsing the Brexit threads. Lol, get out.


I am not quite liking your tone. so excuse me for choosing to ignoring any further response you wish to make.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not quite liking your tone. so excuse me for choosing to ignoring any further response you wish to make.


Please do.


----------



## Magyarmum

ErsatzNihilist said:


> It's just words, dude. Can't hurt you. Unlike being blase about the horrors that Ireland went through.


----------



## Elles

Where did I say I’m ok with violence towards anyone. I’m not. However I’m not ok with the threat of violence to influence peoples’ voting choices either. Saying it will cause difficulties at the Irish and Gibraltar borders is fine, saying vote Eu or else, is something entirely different.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Why do you think I'm making excuses? I don't believe any government thinks killing off the population and attacking the weak and vulnerable is a winning policy. Their 'suicide minister' may well bite them in the backside, by highlighting and bringing to the fore where government failure has led to unnecessary hardship and death. The bringing in of private firms where profit is the main, if not only motivator, is imho majorly to blame. There clearly weren't the safeguards in place. I have always criticised government policy on care of the elderly, disabled and the vulnerable. Generally people have never been better off. 50% of under 5 year olds have their own tablet or iPad and yet the vulnerable are dying. It's about time this was addressed.


Errm because of the words on your post There are enough 'im alright jacks' to keep them in power - and they know it! The tories own policies have created the spike in the suicide rates, for goodness sake Elles. Theres no more money to help people mental health issues, theres no new minister. You've bee taken in by tory spin. We have a homelessness crisis, child poverty crisis, foodbank epidemic. Because the tories have ripped away the safety net four most vulnerable. You do know the ideology of the tories is a small state which means massive cuts to public services? The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. We are now one of the most unequal countries in the West , we can only address this a fairer more equal society. Did you believe the tory spin when they said of their austerity con that 'we're all in this together'?


----------



## SusieRainbow

Any more swearing and personal attacks *will* result in closure of this thread , to join all the other closed brexit threads, and the topic will be banned.


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

Magyarmum said:


>














Elles said:


> Where did I say I'm ok with violence towards anyone. I'm not. However I'm not ok with the threat of violence to influence peoples' voting choices either. Saying it will cause difficulties at the Irish and Gibraltar borders is fine, saying vote Eu or else, is something entirely different.


You're okay with it. You shrugged off sectarian violence in a glib manner.

Nobody said "vote EU or else", you're just setting up strawmen. I responded to a question about "things we'll have", which is violence in Ireland. You're the one who jumped in to wave it away as something that should never be taken into account because terrorism. Like, you're fine with the deaths of British citizens, casually. Gross.


----------



## Magyarmum

ErsatzNihilist said:


> Yeah, but as usual, the issue was with the use of a "swear word" rather than the assertion that the individual was "Disgusting". That's the damaging part, but arseholes like that just focus on the technicalities. That's the whole way they argue.


I think your self portrait just about sums you up!


----------



## ErsatzNihilist

SusieRainbow said:


> Any more swearing and personal attacks *will* result in closure of this thread , to join all the other closed brexit threads, and the topic will be banned.


Ban people doing things you don't like, not topics.


----------



## SusieRainbow

ErsatzNihilist said:


> Ban people doing things you don't like, not topics.


OK !


----------



## noushka05

SusieRainbow said:


> Any more swearing and personal attacks *will* result in closure of this thread , to join all the other closed brexit threads, and the topic will be banned.


Who has been swearing & making personal attacks? I must have missed em. Any personal attacks aimed at me go over my head anyway lol

Its ok, ive caught up! lol


----------



## Jesthar

ErsatzNihilist said:


> It's not to get a reaction, it's my genuine opinion about people who hold this "well, it's okay if some people die" attitude. As an adult, I'm free to express myself as I see fit - if the community rejects that, I'll be banned, which will be fair.


I don't think anyone holds that attitude. Peace and prosperity in NI depends on somuch more than keeping terrorists appeased, and one should never underestimate just how fragile the entire situation is over there. Because there have been no overt terrorist actions for so long your average UK mainland resident thinks everything is fine over there. It's not.



ErsatzNihilist said:


> And it absolutely is a threat, and wasn't considered by the government when they kicked all of this off. We can leave the EU, but just shrugging your shoulders at the return of those horrors makes you human slime. This is a serious issue and should have been considered to find a way through before we jumped in with both feet - but what else can you expect from a government that copy and pasted it's impact analyses from wikipedia.


To be brutally honest, I didn't even think about NI during the whole referendum, and had no idea that the Good Friday agreement hinged on being in the EU. And I should have been more aware than most due to past experience



ErsatzNihilist said:


> Northern Ireland contains British Citizens - if we're okay with violence towards them, then I don't know what to say to you. You are filth.


Again, no-one has actually said they are OK with violence towards anyone. Not wanting to appease terrorists (because meeting their demands so often encourages them to more violence if they see they can get what they want that way) is not condoning their violence. Things are never that black and white.


----------



## Elles

I just said I don’t agree with the government policy on various issues that affect the most vulnerable in our society. I’ve always said it. I’m clearly not communicating well. I think this suicide minister thing would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious. The only good thing about it, is that it’s highlighting the failings and bringing it to the fore. I haven’t fallen for any spin, or been fooled, or anything else.


----------



## SusieRainbow

@ErsatzNihilist has been banned from the thread , he asked me to tell you he is therefore unable to repond further.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I just said I don't agree with the government policy on various issues that affect the most vulnerable in our society. I've always said it. I'm clearly not communicating well. I think this suicide minister thing would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. The only good thing about it, is that it's highlighting the failings and bringing it to the fore. I haven't fallen for any spin, or been fooled, or anything else.


#

OK Elles  The tories have deliberately inflicted all this suffering. Austerity was never about economics, it is all about ideology.

The IMF did a health check on the wealth of 31 nations. It found almost £1tn had been wiped off the wealth of the UK's public sector since 2008 - equivalent to 50% of GDP - putting it in the second weakest position, with only Portugal in a worse state.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/10/uk-public-finances-among-weakest-in-world-imf-says

Like most countries in the index, including the US, the UK has done more to sell off public assets and consequently reduce the possible income from assets that could offset demands on the public purse.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> He's not the only leader to make mistakes. At the time I agreed with him whole hearted about sending in the troops.


So did I but that was because I believe Blair's lies about weapons on mass destruction .
He did not make a mistake , he mislead our country and the US.
Robin Cook was very much against it but sadly died. 
The whistle blower who said Blair's evidence was "sexed up" was later found dead and there is great doubt he committed suicide, very possibly murdered .

RIP Dr Kelly. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> So did I but that was because I believe Blair's lies about weapons on mass destruction .
> He did not make a mistake , he mislead our country and the US.
> 
> The whistleblower who said Blair's evidence was "sexed up" was later found dead and there is great doubt he committed suicide, very possibly murdered .


A million people took to the streets in protest because they didn't believe him. 139 labour MPs rebelled against their own party. The vote was carried through because of the support from the tories. Only 15 tory mps rebelled. Because like Blair, the tories are neocons. They are pro war. This current tory government, the one brexit has given unprecedented power to, are warmongering neocons . Blair didnt mislead the US, the Bush government were equally complicit.

The Blair government implemented a lot of progressive changes in this country, no one cake that away from them, but the fact remains Blair is a war criminal. And the tories too are war criminals, have you seen what they've done/are doing in the Middle East?

This is what the tories did to Libya. And they still insist on arming our brutal 'allies' the Saudis!










Chomsky on the ideology of the neocons. And people think Corbyn & the left wing of the labour party are the dangerous extremist :Watching


----------



## noushka05

The lunatic fringe of the leave camp are just taking us for complete idiots now. lol

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 9
David Schneider Retweeted Owen Paterson MP

You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear 
You said it was Project Fear

*Owen Paterson MP*‏Verified account @OwenPaterson
"Remain campaigners made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market including potential trade barriers, 
paying tariffs & even reverting to WTO rules..17.4 million voters didn't fear abandoning Single Market membership
https://brexitcentral.com/knew-voting-june-2016-remain-campaign-made-clear/


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> The lunatic fringe of the leave camp are just taking us for complete idiots now. lol
> 
> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Oct 9
> David Schneider Retweeted Owen Paterson MP
> 
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> You said it was Project Fear
> 
> *Owen Paterson MP*‏Verified account @OwenPaterson
> "Remain campaigners made it abundantly clear to voters that backing Leave meant leaving the Single Market including potential trade barriers,
> paying tariffs & even reverting to WTO rules..17.4 million voters didn't fear abandoning Single Market membership
> https://brexitcentral.com/knew-voting-june-2016-remain-campaign-made-clear/


You can add to that the irony of many Leave campaign figureheads promoting the Norway model


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Where did I say I'm ok with violence towards anyone. I'm not. However I'm not ok with the threat of violence to influence peoples' voting choices either. Saying it will cause difficulties at the Irish and Gibraltar borders is fine, saying vote Eu or else, is something entirely different.


I agree with that, (re Ireland) - voting should not be influenced by terrorist threats - so long as we can be sure that the government would take the appropriate actions to ensure the continuation of the peace. What has concerned me since the vote is that the extreme No Deal advocates in the Tory party - like Rees-Mogg and Boris - really don't seem to appreciate the gravity of the situation in Ireland, and if they do then they clearly believe that leaving the EU in the way they advocate is worth lives. That, I don't think is right at all.

I'm not saying that the Irish border issue is sufficient reason to cancel Brexit, but that a way must be found to leave which safeguards the Good Friday Agreement, even if that means the 'pinking' of some formerly red lines.


----------



## Elles

What? Pro Israeli neocons? Is this to do with anti-semitism? It’s been said that the Russians, The Masons, The Communists, The Mafia, The Yakuza, The Knights Templar and many other groups, both real and imagined are actually in charge of the world. I’m not entirely convinced.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> What? Pro Israeli neocons? Is this to do with anti-semitism? It's been said that the Russians, The Masons, The Communists, The Mafia, The Yakuza, The Knights Templar and many other groups, both real and imagined are actually in charge of the world. I'm not entirely convinced.


Its nothing to do with antisemitism. Neocons are pro Israel. Thats why they rarely criticise the dreadful treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government & if they do it tend to be weak platitudes.


----------



## Arnie83

Revolting Cabinet members

*Theresa May given until Monday to change her Brexit plan or suffer Cabinet walkouts*

Cabinet Brexiteers are angry with May's refusal to put a definite end-point on her plans for a so-called Brexit "backstop."​
Call me pedantic, but backstops are intended to come into operation if no negotiated alternative has been found, so a backstop with a defined end-date isn't a backstop.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Revolting Cabinet members
> 
> *Theresa May given until Monday to change her Brexit plan or suffer Cabinet walkouts*
> 
> Cabinet Brexiteers are angry with May's refusal to put a definite end-point on her plans for a so-called Brexit "backstop."​
> Call me pedantic, but backstops are intended to come into operation if no negotiated alternative has been found, so a backstop with a defined end-date isn't a backstop.


Why should May force through her Chequers Deal. Good on the Cabinet Ministers for planning to walk out. I have a feeling you like her Chequers Deal?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Why should May force through her Chequers Deal. Good on the Cabinet Ministers for planning to walk out. I have a feeling you like her Chequers Deal?


It's obviously better for the country than No Deal, but no I don't like it.

I just can't believe that supposedly intelligent people can resign from the Cabinet because a backstop hasn't got an end date! What do they propose happens if the end date is reached and no alternative has been agreed?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's obviously better for the country than No Deal, but no I don't like it.
> 
> I just can't believe that supposedly intelligent people can resign from the Cabinet because a backstop hasn't got an end date! What do they propose happens if the end date is reached and no alternative has been agreed?


She still has to overcome the biggest hurdle of all. Getting her Chequers Deal through Parliament. I would be supprised if she did. DUP has threatened to withdraw their support for May's Government.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> She still has to overcome the biggest hurdle of all. Getting her Chequers Deal through Parliament. I would be supprised if she did. DUP has threatened to withdraw their support for May's Government.


The DUP is 10 strong, and the ERG extremists, when push comes to shove, somewhere between, say, 30 (?) and 80.

So it all depends on Labour. Personally I doubt there would be enough rebels against the Labour whip to save whatever deal May presents if Corbyn orders a vote against. But if Labour abstain or vote in favour, then it goes through.

It all depends whether they think they can get a GE, which isn't in their power. If they don't think that, it depends on whether they want to risk a No Deal, which only the ERG want, because the offer of a new referendum isn't in their power either.

I honestly can't predict what might happen. All options are possible still.


----------



## noushka05

The EU have bent over backwards to keep us happy. Our country is the spoiled brat of countries.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I'm sorry but the threat of a return to violence is no reason for voting either way on anything. Terrorists should never hold voters to ransom.


It doesn't give the right to undermine what I believe to be one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Century either.


----------



## Elles

Just watched Heidi Allen interviewed about Universal Credit on channel 4 news. Seems a nice lady.


----------



## Magyarmum

@noushk05 said "The EU have bent over backwards to keep us happy. Our country is the spoiled brat of countries."

You MUST be kidding!

The EU isn't as squeaky clean and pearly white as you seem to think it is and it certainly hasn't bent over backwards to keep us happy. On the contrary it's done all in it's power to be as inflexible and as awkward as possible.

Take a look at the credentials of the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...opeans-despair-jean-claude-juncker-commission

and Donald Tusk President of the European Council

https://gefira.org/en/2017/08/07/donald-tusk-and-his-son-in-the-centre-of-a-fraud/

Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Brexit negotiator

https://derijkstebelgen.be/nieuws/lucratieve-moonlighting-guy-verhofstadt

Michel Barnier - known as the most dangerous man in Europe

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-the-frenchman-in-charge-of-the-eus-brexit-n/[/QUOTE]

Four good men and true - I think not - who are taking great delight at stabbing us in the back.

And listen to what Yanis Varoufakis has to say about negotiating with the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You MUST be kidding!
> 
> The EU isn't as squeaky clean and pearly white as you seem to think it is and it certainly hasn't bent over backwards to keep us happy. On the contrary it's done all in it's power to be as inflexible and as awkward as possible.
> 
> Take a look at the credentials of the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...opeans-despair-jean-claude-juncker-commission
> 
> and Donald Tusk President of the European Council
> 
> https://gefira.org/en/2017/08/07/donald-tusk-and-his-son-in-the-centre-of-a-fraud/
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Brexit negotiator
> 
> https://derijkstebelgen.be/nieuws/lucratieve-moonlighting-guy-verhofstadt
> 
> Michel Barnier - known as the most dangerous man in Europe
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-the-frenchman-in-charge-of-the-eus-brexit-n/
> 
> Four good men and true - I think not - who are taking great delight at stabbing us in the back.
> 
> And listen to what Yanis Varoufakis has to say about negotiating with the EU.



Get us out of the EU asap please.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> You MUST be kidding!
> 
> The EU isn't as squeaky clean and pearly white as you seem to think it is and it certainly hasn't bent over backwards to keep us happy. On the contrary it's done all in it's power to be as inflexible and as awkward as possible.
> 
> Take a look at the credentials of the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...opeans-despair-jean-claude-juncker-commission
> 
> and Donald Tusk President of the European Council
> 
> https://gefira.org/en/2017/08/07/donald-tusk-and-his-son-in-the-centre-of-a-fraud/
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Brexit negotiator
> 
> https://derijkstebelgen.be/nieuws/lucratieve-moonlighting-guy-verhofstadt
> 
> Michel Barnier - known as the most dangerous man in Europe
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-the-frenchman-in-charge-of-the-eus-brexit-n/


I don't think the EU is squeaky clean and pearly white. Far from it!

And your links dont disprove any of the points made on my post so are totally irrelevant. The EU did bend over backwards for us on those issues as far as I'm aware.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jean Claude Junker's homeland is in the biggest tax haven country this side of America. How dare he have a nerve to say the UK cannot be one? What a two faced little person he is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like the EU is corrupt to the core and the UK is right to demand to leave. The sooner the better.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I don't think the EU is squeaky clean and pearly white. Far from it!
> 
> And your links dont disprove any of the points made on my post so are totally irrelevant. The EU did bend over backwards for us on those issues as far as I'm aware.


If you think the links are irrelevant then you're a hypocrite because if nothing else they tell you something about the people your dealing with.

And as for the EU bending backwards you'll have to do much better than just saying "as far as I'm aware".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Thank you for those links @Magyarmum they really show the type of people the UK negotiators are dealing with. I am glad I voted leave and would again if I had to. I do not have to give any reason why I voted leave but just look at the people running the EU and their backgrounds.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for those links @Magyarmum they really show the type of people the UK negotiators are dealing with and it spins a new light on Brexit. I am glad I voted leave and would again if I had to. I do not have to give any reason why I voted leave but just look at the people running the EU and their backgrounds.


And the Tories are squeaky clean?
I guess it's ok for someone from afar who might not directly be affected by Brexit to spout venom about them.


----------



## Elles

If there’s secret underlying corrupt wealth, underpinning politics and finances in the world, wouldn’t they have had a say in the Eu too?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> If you think the links are irrelevant then you're a hypocrite because if nothing else they tell you something about the people your dealing with.
> 
> And as for the EU bending backwards you'll have to do much better than just saying "as far as I'm aware".


Your links did not address a single point in my post, how does that make me a hypocrite?. If you dispute my post isnt factual then the onus is on you to prove otherwise. When I dispute your posts thats what I do. The UK has had a lot of preferential treatment. We sat at the head of the table influencing laws. We has 73 members in the European Parliament, which meant we had 3 times more influence over the laws in the EU than the average country. We were law makers - soon we'll be law takers.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> If you think the links are irrelevant then you're a hypocrite because if nothing else they tell you something about the people your dealing with.
> 
> And as for the EU bending backwards you'll have to do much better than just saying "as far as I'm aware".


With respect and not wishing to cause an argument, it could be argued you are a being hypocritical for not planning to return to the UK if you believe Brexit will be so wonderful for Britain.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> @noushk05 said "The EU have bent over backwards to keep us happy. Our country is the spoiled brat of countries."
> 
> You MUST be kidding!
> 
> The EU isn't as squeaky clean and pearly white as you seem to think it is and it certainly hasn't bent over backwards to keep us happy. On the contrary it's done all in it's power to be as inflexible and as awkward as possible.
> 
> Take a look at the credentials of the President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...opeans-despair-jean-claude-juncker-commission
> 
> and Donald Tusk President of the European Council
> 
> https://gefira.org/en/2017/08/07/donald-tusk-and-his-son-in-the-centre-of-a-fraud/
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Brexit negotiator
> 
> https://derijkstebelgen.be/nieuws/lucratieve-moonlighting-guy-verhofstadt
> 
> Michel Barnier - known as the most dangerous man in Europe
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-the-frenchman-in-charge-of-the-eus-brexit-n/
> 
> Four good men and true - I think not - who are taking great delight at stabbing us in the back.
> 
> And listen to what Yanis Varoufakis has to say about negotiating with the EU.


The untouchables


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Four good men and true - I think not - who are taking great delight at stabbing us in the back.


In what way are they stabbing us in the back?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Looks like the EU is corrupt to the core and the UK is right to demand to leave. The sooner the better.


Do you have any facts to suggest that the EU is any more corrupt than the UK?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Do you have any facts to suggest that the EU is any more corrupt than the UK?


Can I answer?

Next year the EU plans to introduce legislation to stop state sponsored tax avoidance.

In other, totally unconnected, news the UK plans to avoid having to comply with EU legislation next year.


----------



## noushka05

*Peter Jukes*‏Verified account @peterjukes 20h20 hours ago
*No wonder ⁦@Nigel_Farage⁩ bangs on about British fishing rights. They're all owned by his rich mates.

#Brexit is a scam A 5-month long investigation shows that a small group of wealthy families control huge swathes of the country's fishing quota

Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights
A painstaking five-month long investigation shows that a small group of wealthy families control huge swathes of the country's fishing quota

*
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Can I answer?


Thank you. Saves me pointing out the obvious.



> Next year the EU plans to introduce legislation to stop state sponsored tax avoidance.


Luxembourg? Junkers home country. Bit 2 faced stopping it in the EU when his home country encourages tax avoidance as it is a tax haven.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Then let's not forget Donald Tusk


> *Donald Tusk and his son in the centre of a fraud*
> 
> This affair is a huge scandal. It involves the current president of the European Council, *Donald Tusk*, and his son Michał. *Donald Tusk presents himself as a politician who cares very much about the rule of law in Poland. When he was Poland's prime minister, however, he ignored information given to him by the Chief of the Internal Security Agency and the President of the National Bank of Poland. They both warned him that his son was involved in a Ponzi scheme called Amber Gold.*
> 
> The case is being investigated by the Polish government, which set up a special Inquiry Committee. Of course, Donald Tusk is denying all the accusations, but at the same time he is *criticizing Warsaw for failing to enforce democracy and the rule of law*. The question is whether Donald Tusk is not acting in self-defence and aiming at *toppling the government, which set up the Inquiry Committee on the Amber Gold*.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> *Peter Jukes*‏Verified account @peterjukes 20h20 hours ago
> *No wonder ⁦@Nigel_Farage⁩ bangs on about British fishing rights. They're all owned by his rich mates.
> 
> #Brexit is a scam A 5-month long investigation shows that a small group of wealthy families control huge swathes of the country's fishing quota
> 
> Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights
> A painstaking five-month long investigation shows that a small group of wealthy families control huge swathes of the country's fishing quota
> 
> *
> https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/


Isn't this in the Eu?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Then let's not forget Donald Tusk


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Good advice from the party of business.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...u-uk-hq-no-deal-industry-europe-a8581431.html


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear. Theresa May's Project Fear campaign to get support for her Chequers plan really has moved up a gear.

Now, that's bound to frighten people into succumbing to her plan isn't it.


----------



## Elles

Who is feeding the Independent with this stuff?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Who is feeding the Independent with this stuff?


The BBC reported this too:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43581894


----------



## Jesthar

Not sure why the possibility of post-Brexit tech issues should come as a surprise to anyone. In laymans terms, electronic goods/content and services potentially face very similar resolution challenges as physical goods - barring the need to turn a motorway into a lorry park 

Then again, I suppose the average layman doesn't read the kind of geek rags where such things are discussed, aside as an insomnia cure!


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Not sure why the possibility of post-Brexit tech issues should come as a surprise to anyone. In laymans terms, electronic goods/content and services potentially face very similar resolution challenges as physical goods - barring the need to turn a motorway into a lorry park
> 
> Then again, I suppose the average layman doesn't read the kind of geek rags where such things are discussed, aside as an insomnia cure!


Speaking of technical issues my smartphone is calibrated to work in any EU country.

So, should I expect it to stop working suddenly after the end of March next year in the event of a no deal Brexit?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you. Saves me pointing out the obvious.
> 
> Luxemburg? Junkers home town. Bit 2 faced stopping it in the EU when his home country encourages tax avoidance as it is a tax haven.


There are tax havens within the EU, small economies such as Luxembourg, Eire. Its these countries that have made it easy for corporations to domicile there. EU cannot prevent countries adopting beggar thy neighbour tax policies at the moment because tax is a sovereign matter, but it can go after big business avoiding tax. When the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive comes in next year it will clamp down further on tax dodging companies - like the ones the tories and their backers are linked to  No wonder they want to drag us over the cliff without a deal, hey??.

And just to add, as the EU is democratic Juncker will be gone next year!

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...dance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371817


The world thinks we've gone insane. I agree!

*Jon Worth*‏Verified account @jonworth Oct 12
UK, you have a problem. You're actually *adapting* your motorways to turn them into truck parks to cope with #Brexit.

Do you not see how mad this is?









.......................


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Who is feeding the Independent with this stuff?


What do you find hard to believe Elles?

.......


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Isn't this in the Eu?


Yes, but I think you're probably missing the crucial point.

*"Fishing was the poster child of the Leave campaign and [environment secretary Michael] Gove has already broken promises he made to the industry to secure full control of our waters during the transition,*" she continued. *With all the talk of 'take back control', ministers have the power to distribute UK quota now and put the smaller-scale fleet first. So why wasn't it mentioned in their white paper?

"This [Unearthed story] shows that, while it points the fingers at others, this government is to blame for a sector rigged in the interests of the super-rich*. Any future fishing policy must consider how new and existing quota can be more fairly distributed and we will treat this as a priority in the upcoming fisheries bill."

The investigation found:


----------



## noushka05

Brexit, the gift that keeps giving - on a daily basis.

One Brexit Day: -

Reports police are sitting on Vote Leave investigation because of "political sensitivities" -
HMRC chief gets death threats because of reporting cost of Brexit -
M26 surveyed to harbour 2nd *lorry park* because "customs" -
DUP threatening to chop magic money tree.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexit clearly isn't bad for the whole world if it's good for Russia etc.


Nope, the worst people on the planet support brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Just watched Heidi Allen interviewed about Universal Credit on channel 4 news. Seems a nice lady.


'Seems' being the operative word. #

Heidi is a hypocrite of the highest order, shes weeps in parliament for the suffering caused by policies SHE has voted for. (and this is what a 'moderate' tory looks like these days :/ )


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Nope, the worst people on the planet support brexit.


Now you are insulting leave voters.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you. Saves me pointing out the obvious.
> 
> Luxembourg? Junkers home country. Bit 2 faced stopping it in the EU when his home country encourages tax avoidance as it is a tax haven.


Noushka pointed out that the EU is looking to introduce anti-tax avoidance legislation. It was not to support your claim that the EU is corrupt.

An unproven allegation about Tusk's son is not proof of the EU being corrupt. Even if Tusk's son is found guilty of something, it still is not proof of the EU's corruption. Asking a question - is Donald Tusk trying to topple the Polish government to protect his son - is not only far fetched at best, but it's not even an accusation. And that's proof of EU corruption that you put forward?

I'm all for facts - you might have noticed by now - and when presented with them will change my views accordingly.

I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that "the EU" is any more corrupt than any other organisation, and certainly no more than the UK. Expenses scandal, anyone? UKIP fined for misusing EU funds? Vote Leave breaking electoral law?

People who accuse the EU of corruption, and especially who casually throw in the phrase "corrupt EU" as if it's an accepted fact, are simply trying to denigrate the enemy; the other. It's a propaganda tactic used by disingenuous politicians everywhere. Repetition becomes fact in people's minds; it remain, in reality, nonsense.

That's quite long, so you probably didn't read it. *Summary: No proof EU any more corrupt than, say, UK.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> There are tax havens within the EU, small economies such as Luxembourg,


 Junker is still 2 faced as he lives in a tax haven.


----------



## Arnie83

@stockwellcat. Still interested in reading any specific benefits to the UK of the No Deal that you advocate.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Junker is still 2 faced as he lives in a tax haven.


As opposed to those UK MPs who just put their money in one, and advise their clients to do so at the same time as advocating Brexit and saying everything will be fine?

And living in a tax haven is not exactly proof of corruption.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Noushka pointed out that the EU is looking to introduce anti-tax avoidance legislation. It was not to support your claim that the EU is corrupt.
> 
> An unproven allegation about Tusk's son is not proof of the EU being corrupt. Even if Tusk's son is found guilty of something, it still is not proof of the EU's corruption. Asking a question - is Donald Tusk trying to topple the Polish government to protect his son - is not only far fetched at best, but it's not even an accusation. And that's proof of EU corruption that you put forward?
> 
> I'm all for facts - you might have noticed by now - and when presented with them will change my views accordingly.
> 
> I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that "the EU" is any more corrupt than any other organisation, and certainly no more than the UK. Expenses scandal, anyone? UKIP fined for misusing EU funds? Vote Leave breaking electoral law?
> 
> People who accuse the EU of corruption, and especially who casually throw in the phrase "corrupt EU" as if it's an accepted fact, are simply trying to denigrate the enemy; the other. It's a propaganda tactic used by disingenuous politicians everywhere. Repetition becomes fact in people's minds; it remain, in reality, nonsense.
> 
> That's quite long, so you probably didn't read it. *Summary: No proof EU any more corrupt than, say, UK.*


Yawn.
This is getting tedious now and time consuming I have other things to do. You think what you want and I will think what I want.

Noushka just insulted leave voters so I think I will leave the narrow minded to stew on brexit and keep on worrying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> As opposed to those UK MPs who just put their money in one, and advise their clients to do so at the same time as advocating Brexit and saying everything will be fine?
> 
> And living in a tax haven is not exactly proof of corruption.


I noticed you didn't comment on Tusk and his son being investigated for fraud.

Any how I will leave you to stew and worry about Brexit as it seems this is all this thread is about. The doom and gloom of Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Now you are insulting leave voters.


No I'm not, I have really good friends and family members who voted to leave. What I'm talking about is hostile governments and dark outside forces who bankrolled the leave campaign and used military grade brainwashing techniques to persuade people to vote leave. I'm talking about despots and demagogues, racist organisations, the far right and so on. The lunatic fringe of the tory party - Farage, Banks, Wigmore. The right wing media barons. These are the worst people on the planet and brexit has played right into their hands.



stockwellcat. said:


> Junker is still 2 faced as he lives in a tax haven.


And I 100% agree.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> The untouchables


The tories?


----------



## noushka05

More on the Greenpeace investigation.

*Unearthed*‏Verified account @UE Oct 11
*BREAKING: Our brand new investigation reveals that a few wealthy families control huge swathes of fishing rights in the* *UK*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Your links did not address a single point in my post, how does that make me a hypocrite?. If you dispute my post isnt factual then the onus is on you to prove otherwise. When I dispute your posts thats what I do. The UK has had a lot of preferential treatment. We sat at the head of the table influencing laws. We has 73 members in the European Parliament, which meant we had 3 times more influence over the laws in the EU than the average country. We were law makers - soon we'll be law takers.


http://www.votewatch.eu/blog/update...t-assessing-the-influence-of-individual-meps/

https://esharp.eu/debates/the-uk-and-europe/analysing-the-uks-influence-in-eu-policy-making


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Now you are insulting leave voters.


I took that to mean Noushka was referring to politicians who back leave. Not the leave voters themselves.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I noticed you didn't comment on Tusk and his son being investigated for fraud.


You quoted my comments on Tusk in your post directly above. Literally your previous post.

And Tusk is not being investigated for fraud. Facts really are inconvenient sometimes.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> http://www.votewatch.eu/blog/update...t-assessing-the-influence-of-individual-meps/
> 
> https://esharp.eu/debates/the-uk-and-europe/analysing-the-uks-influence-in-eu-policy-making


Something that stands out to me and it's used a great deal in most reports both official and press, is the use of the word allies. Apparently we have allies within the EU and we are allies to other countries within. Now I thought this was a united group, why would there need to be allies?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yawn.
> This is getting tedious now and time consuming I have other things to do. You think what you want and I will think what I want.


I ask you to provide proof of your accusation of corruption and you yawn.

I ask you to provide any benefits from a No Deal and you post a 'yawn' smiley.

They're not the most convincing argument, are they. Some might even conclude that there is no proof of unusual corruption and no benefits of a No Deal.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Something that stands out to me and it's used a great deal in most reports both official and press, is the use of the word allies. Apparently we have allies within the EU and we are allies to other countries within. Now I thought this was a united group, why would there need to be allies?


You're not nearly that naive.

Have a glance at the Tory Cabinet.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> And Tusk is not being investigated for fraud. Facts really are inconvenient sometimes.











https://gefira.org/en/2017/08/07/donald-tusk-and-his-son-in-the-centre-of-a-fraud/


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> The tories?


The Tories have got a lot to answer for, most of those above are now owned or part owned by foreign companies.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I ask you to provide proof of your accusation of corruption and you yawn.
> 
> I ask you to provide any benefits from a No Deal and you post a 'yawn' smiley.
> 
> They're not the most convincing argument, are they. Some might even conclude that there is no proof of unusual corruption and no benefits of a No Deal.


Well how many times does the advantages question need answering? It proves there is ignorance from some remainers as they choose to read what they want and ignore anything they don't want to read. Your question has been answered so many times so deserves a big YAWN.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> @stockwellcat. Still interested in reading any specific benefits to the UK of the No Deal that you advocate.


You have already been told these so many times and choose to dismiss them. Sorry but I am not repeating myself for your convenience.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Nope, *the worst people on the planet support brexit*.


Well please don't be shocked @noushka05 but I apologise if I miss read this.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371824
> Oh dear. Theresa May's Project Fear campaign to get support for her Chequers plan really has moved up a gear.
> 
> Now, that's bound to frighten people into succumbing to her plan isn't it.


I think you'll find it has more to do with Articles 11 and 13 of the EU's copyright directive than it has to do with Brexit.

I'm already finding I no longer have access to some of the overseas, mainly US and UK, websites that I used to and whilst I might have access to articles sometimes I can't access a video if the article contains one as It will say "not available in your country".

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/wha...ean-directive-on-copyright-explained-meme-ban

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17849868/eu-internet-copyright-reform-article-11-13-approved


----------



## KittenKong

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2...th-chronic-illnesses-such-as-type-1-diabetes/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371835
> 
> 
> https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2...th-chronic-illnesses-such-as-type-1-diabetes/


I think the welfare cuts and sanctions are disgusting for those that are genuinely in need of state financial help.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Well how many times does the advantages question need answering? It proves there is ignorance from some remainers as they choose to read what they want and ignore anything they don't want to read. Your question has been answered so many times so deserves a big YAWN.


You could say the same about the leavers, they only want to believe what they want as well.

Lets face it, no one owns whats going to happen until we are out, we are been told so many lies.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> The Tories have got a lot to answer for, most of those above are now owned or part owned by foreign companies.


Isn't that Globalism, which is what most remainers want?

You are talking like a Brexiteer


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> There are tax havens within the EU, small economies such as Luxembourg, Eire. Its these countries that have made it easy for corporations to domicile there. EU cannot prevent countries adopting beggar thy neighbour tax policies at the moment because tax is a sovereign matter, but it can go after big business avoiding tax. When the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive comes in next year it will clamp down further on tax dodging companies - like the ones the tories and their backers are linked to  No wonder they want to drag us over the cliff without a deal, hey??.
> 
> And just to add, as the EU is democratic Juncker will be gone next year!
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...dance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en


Not true as I know from my own experience even though I'm just an elderly law abiding, somewhat impoverished British expat!

Over the past nearly 2 years the UK government has put in place measures to prevent tax evasion, money laundering and corruption.

http://www.mondaq.com/uk/x/637888/W...nces+With+New+Tax+Evasion+Offences+AntiMoney+

https://www.financierworldwide.com/...ent-policy-in-the-uk-and-the-us/#.W8GHKnszbIU

https://assets.publishing.service.g...1/Tackling-tax-evasion-corporate-offences.pdf

As a British citizen living overseas, whether it be the EU of not, I'm no longer permitted to open a bank account in the UK.

Until 4 or 5 years ago it was possible to open a Building Society account provided it was a savings account which is what I have.

Until 2115 I could transfer money by simply sending an email something which has gradually changed since then so that now I either have to personally go to the BS (in the UK??) or ask my DIL, who has power of attorney to do it for me.

Online banking is a no-no because I don't have a UK phone number. Even if I phone the BS they refuse to talk to me on the grounds that I could be an imposter!

2016 I had a batch of papers from the UK government requesting me to prove I am who I am, which meant getting notarised copies of my passport. and various other papers.

2017 Forms from my Hungarian bank and UK BS asking for details of my income and which country I paid tax in.

Having heard nothing since I can only assume they're satisfied I'm not going to secrete my pittance in some Caribbean tax haven!


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> 'Seems' being the operative word. #
> 
> Heidi is a hypocrite of the highest order, shes weeps in parliament for the suffering caused by policies SHE has voted for. (and this is what a 'moderate' tory looks like these days :/ )


I think she's also a very clever lady. I already checked her voting history.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> No I'm not, I have really good friends and family members who voted to leave. What I'm talking about is hostile governments and dark outside forces who bankrolled the leave campaign and used military grade brainwashing techniques to persuade people to vote leave. I'm talking about despots and demagogues, racist organisations, the far right and so on. The lunatic fringe of the tory party - Farage, Banks, Wigmore. The right wing media barons. These are the worst people on the planet and brexit has played right into their hands.
> 
> And I 100% agree.


And presumably you check under your bed every night to make sure there are no "reds" hidden under it?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Isn't that Globalism, which is what most remainers want?
> 
> You are talking like a Brexiteer


Do you think that the Brexit supporters want to reverse foreign ownership of UK-based companies? I'd have thought that ship had pretty much sailed, hasn't it?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think that the Brexit supporters want to reverse foreign ownership of UK-based companies? I'd have thought that ship had pretty much sailed, hasn't it?


One of the issues raised before the referendum was foreign ownership of U.K. based companies and properties and the selling of franchises to Eu countries, eg the rail franchise bought by the German government. It's been brought up a few times since, mainly be labour, but with a sprinkling of Brexit. If the German government think it's worth buying a franchise in British railways, why did we sell them in the first place. I think it could still be a part of reasons to brexit, albeit a small part.

One of the problems with bringing up problems today, is that we are still in the Eu. Regardless of whose fault it might be, these things are happening as part of the Eu. It could be that with the British government answerable to the British and no Eu to blame, they won't get away with it so easily. At least I think that's what some hope for.

Our current government do have policies I don't agree with, but they also have some I do. The majority of people in the U.K. are better off than ever, it's the people that aren't who need help and policy changes. It really is scandalous and unforgivable the way these new policies on welfare are affecting vulnerable people. The public, sympathetic MPs and the press need to be more outspoken over it and to be putting pressure on the government to change tack on this. These are real people, not numbers on a piece of paper.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Words, when used as a weapon,


Agree. Bullying is often ''just words'' too, but people have killed themselves as a result of the words being used . . . not suggesting anyone on PF will as a result of what was said.


----------



## noushka05

I dont have time to respond to everyone , I only have time for a couple of short ones before I go out -



stockwellcat. said:


> Well please don't be shocked @noushka05 but I apologise if I miss read this.


I was responding to Elles post below. I didn't think that people might misunderstand and take it personally, so my bad for not being more clear.



Elles said:


> *Brexit clearly isn't bad for the whole world if it's good for Russia etc*.





Elles said:


> I think she's also a very clever lady. *I already checked her voting histor*y.


You did? And you think she seems nice?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> You did? And you think she seems nice?


Yes, I do. Time will tell, but sometimes you have to do as you're told to get to where you want to go and have influence. She also wants a second referendum with remain as one of the options and says if Rees-Mogg or Boris become PM she'll likely leave the conservatives.

She is arguing against tax cuts and instead more money being made available both for the more vulnerable in our society, but also to be spent on efficiency to speed up access to the money.

She is against fox hunting.

She supported and signed cross party letters regarding the nhs etc

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/978044156072419328
She's also been asked more than once why she hasn't left yet, as inteviewers have pointed out that other party policies might suit her more. Hence atm I think she is both clever and nice, but only time will tell.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> One of the issues raised before the referendum was foreign ownership of U.K. based companies and properties and the selling of franchises to Eu countries, eg the rail franchise bought by the German government. It's been brought up a few times since, mainly be labour, but with a sprinkling of Brexit. If the German government think it's worth buying a franchise in British railways, why did we sell them in the first place. I think it could still be a part of reasons to brexit, albeit a small part.
> 
> One of the problems with bringing up problems today, is that we are still in the Eu. Regardless of whose fault it might be, these things are happening as part of the Eu. It could be that with the British government answerable to the British and no Eu to blame, they won't get away with it so easily. At least I think that's what some hope for.
> 
> Our current government do have policies I don't agree with, but they also have some I do. The majority of people in the U.K. are better off than ever, it's the people that aren't who need help and policy changes. It really is scandalous and unforgivable the way these new policies on welfare are affecting vulnerable people. The public, sympathetic MPs and the press need to be more outspoken over it and to be putting pressure on the government to change tack on this. These are real people, not numbers on a piece of paper.


I hadn't really noticed that element of it, to be honest. I wonder, though, if introducing protectionist policies wrt company ownership is quite the Global Britain face we want to show post-Brexit. I had assumed the Brexiters wanted more globalisation rather than less, with their talk of free trade and attracting foreign investment.


----------



## Elles

I have to say the welfare sanctions are horrific. I hope that people can find support from family and friends until this is sorted out. If someone I know can't afford to keep their insulin cool and feed themselves, I hope they'd ask me to help. 



Arnie83 said:


> I hadn't really noticed that element of it, to be honest. I wonder, though, if introducing protectionist policies wrt company ownership is quite the Global Britain face we want to show post-Brexit. I had assumed the Brexiters wanted more globalisation rather than less, with their talk of free trade and attracting foreign investment.


I think the idea is more what's yours is ours and what's ours is our own, than selling England by the pound.  We want to be able to trade with the rest of the world, not sell the U.K. to them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Isn't that Globalism*, which is what most remainers want? *
> 
> You are talking like a Brexiteer


NO I'd like the government to take them back into public ownership, why should I pay my bills and the profits go aboard.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think the idea is more what's yours is ours and what's ours is our own, than selling England by the pound.  We want to be able to trade with the rest of the world, not sell the U.K. to them.


We seem to want to have and eat quite a lot of cakes, don't we!


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I think the idea is more what's yours is ours and what's ours is our own, than selling England by the pound.  We want to be able to trade with the rest of the world, not sell the U.K. to them.


If you're interested here's a potted history about privatisation in the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/29/short-history-of-privatisation

And another one listing all the countries which have privatised utilities ...... France you'll note has also done quite a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_privatizations_by_country

Hungary's railway system MAV is State owned and extremely efficient and not expensive. The trains are always on time and what is even better, being over 60 I can travel free anywhere in the country as often as I like If I had to pay for a return ticket from where I live to Budapest some 150 miles away, on the MAV Express it would cost just under £28 and take 2 hours.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't know why some remainers are fretting and feeling so glum as it looks like you are getting the type of deal you wanted if you couldn't get a second referendum. A soft brexit. It looks like May is caving in to EU demands and the UK will be remaining in the Single Market and A Customs Union (not the Customs Union) until 2020 something well there is no end date to be precise. So we will have a Norway Type Brexit as we will be in the EEA. So you are getting what you want you should be ecstatic.

Remainer May should never have been trusted as she has opted the looks of it for the UK to be closely tied to the EU.

So leaving on the 29th March 2019 means we are only leaving in name.

Don't forget May has to get this through Parliament yet. It looks like May might be dumping the DUP as well to push this deal through. Remember if she does this she will have a minority Government.

Plus there might be some resignations yet from the Cabinet team and The Leader of the House of Commons in protest of May's comprimises with the EU and her double standards.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit deadline spin: Frenzy in UK, secrecy in Brussels*

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-45822377


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> With respect and not wishing to cause an argument, it could be argued you are a being hypocritical for not planning to return to the UK if you believe Brexit will be so wonderful for Britain.


"Believing Brexit will be so wonderful etc" are your words not mine. And as for being hypocritical about returning to live in the UK it could be equally argued that you are being hypocritical for not considering moving to another country because you believe Brexit is going to be a disaster!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> "Believing Brexit will be so wonderful etc" are your words not mine. And as for being hypocritical about returning to live in the UK it could be equally argued that you are being hypocritical for not considering *moving to another country *because you believe Brexit is going to be a disaster!


I'm considering exactly that. I had my eye on the States until Trump came along, but at least he won't be there for long.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm considering exactly that. I had my eye on the States until Trump came along, but at least he won't be there for long.


He is predicted to win another term at the White House as President. Canada is a nice country and is a neighbouring country to the US. My cousin is in Canada at the moment on an extended visa and often nips across the border into the US.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I'm considering exactly that. I had my eye on the States until Trump came along, but at least he won't be there for long.


@stockwellcat beat me to it. Canada is a beautiful country and my favourite city has to be Vancouver. The other country that you might consider is New Zealand which if you have a skill shouldn't be difficult to emigrate to.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> @stockwellcat beat me to it. Canada is a beautiful country and my favourite city has to be Vancouver. The other country that you might consider is New Zealand which if you have a skill shouldn't be difficult to emigrate to.


I'd like to visit Canada, but they'd have to move it nearer to the equator for me to want to live there!


----------



## Magyarmum

The UK and Italy are not the only countries having problems dealing with the EU

!https://www.yahoo.com/news/swiss-minister-plays-down-mid-october-deadline-eu-161721259.html


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> NO I'd like the government to take them back into public ownership, why should I pay my bills and the profits go aboard.


Well you do realise that we can only do that if we leave the EU, because we otherwise would fall foul of rules restricting state subsidies? (That is why comrade Corbyn has always supported Brexit).

Still talking like a brexiteer then.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Well you do realise that we can only do that if we leave the EU, because we otherwise would fall foul of rules restricting state subsidies? (That is why comrade Corbyn has always supported Brexit).
> 
> Still talking like a brexiteer then.


I'm not sure that is the case. There are some rules but they aren't a blanket ban on state intervention.

A legal assessment of Labour's 26 specific economic proposals by Andrea Biondi, director of the Centre of European Law at King's College London, found that the effect of remaining inside the EU "would likely be negligible".

"Particular concern has been expressed by supporters of 'Lexit' concerning state aid rules preventing those parts of the Labour's current programme which favour nationalisation. This is not the case; nor would Lexit in any event be a mechanism for avoiding state aid laws, which are requirements of World Trade Organisation membership."

The EU has a policy that prevents a national railway monopoly, but this is to make sure a pan-European freight network thrives, which is something Labour supporters would probably back. Most European countries have a nationalised railway system.

French president Emmanuel Macron recently nationalised a shipyard jointly owned with an Italian rival to prevent the domestic firm losing control. He was able to press ahead with his protectionist measure under Maastricht and Lisbon Treaty rules that leave room for policy objectives for which state aid can be considered compatible.

Talk to EU officials and they are bewildered at the notion the EU is a one-size fits all club when there are many more social democratic, statist members than the UK. The European commission has estimated that its history of exemptions shows that more than three-quarters of submissions for state aid have been waved through.​I don't know exactly what the rules are, but there are many articles like that above, and the proof of the pudding is in the sort of examples given. State aid is common across the EU.


----------



## kimthecat

'


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not sure that is the case. There are some rules but they aren't a blanket ban on state intervention.
> 
> A legal assessment of Labour's 26 specific economic proposals by Andrea Biondi, director of the Centre of European Law at King's College London, found that the effect of remaining inside the EU "would likely be negligible".
> 
> "Particular concern has been expressed by supporters of 'Lexit' concerning state aid rules preventing those parts of the Labour's current programme which favour nationalisation. This is not the case; nor would Lexit in any event be a mechanism for avoiding state aid laws, which are requirements of World Trade Organisation membership."
> 
> The EU has a policy that prevents a national railway monopoly, but this is to make sure a pan-European freight network thrives, which is something Labour supporters would probably back. Most European countries have a nationalised railway system.
> 
> French president Emmanuel Macron recently nationalised a shipyard jointly owned with an Italian rival to prevent the domestic firm losing control. He was able to press ahead with his protectionist measure under Maastricht and Lisbon Treaty rules that leave room for policy objectives for which state aid can be considered compatible.
> 
> Talk to EU officials and they are bewildered at the notion the EU is a one-size fits all club when there are many more social democratic, statist members than the UK. The European commission has estimated that its history of exemptions shows that more than three-quarters of submissions for state aid have been waved through.​I don't know exactly what the rules are, but there are many articles like that above, and the proof of the pudding is in the sort of examples given. State aid is common across the EU.


It's not something I know much about, but I did see this about Corbyn's plans for nationalisation.

https://www.anothereurope.org/lets-be-clear-nationalisation-is-not-against-eu-law/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't know why some remainers are fretting and feeling so glum as it looks like you are getting the type of deal you wanted if you couldn't get a second referendum. A soft brexit. It looks like May is caving in to EU demands and the UK will be remaining in the Single Market and A Customs Union (not the Customs Union) until 2020 something well there is no end date to be precise. So we will have a Norway Type Brexit as we will be in the EEA. So you are getting what you want you should be ecstatic.
> 
> Remainer May should never have been trusted as she has opted the looks of it for the UK to be closely tied to the EU.
> 
> So leaving on the 29th March 2019 means we are only leaving in name.
> 
> Don't forget May has to get this through Parliament yet. It looks like May might be dumping the DUP as well to push this deal through. Remember if she does this she will have a minority Government.
> 
> Plus there might be some resignations yet from the Cabinet team and The Leader of the House of Commons in protest of May's comprimises with the EU and her double standards.


 I'm not the slightest bit convinced. I doubt very much May would agree to any compromise that conflicts with her hostile environment policy.

Brexiter or Remainer. I do not trust Theresa May full stop. If she was a remainer you believe she is, she would have looked towards the EEA option from the outset, but no. It clashed with her Hostile Environment policy, a policy that doesn't only effect who she terms, "Non British" but the poor and vulnerable as well.

The only thing I'm enjoying is seeing this vile government tear itself apart.
I'll be ecstatic once May is finally deposed whenever the time comes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I'm not the slightest bit convinced. I doubt very much May would agree to any compromise that conflicts with her hostile environment policy.
> 
> Brexiter or Remainer. I do not trust Theresa May full stop.


She is threatening to ditch the DUP to push through the deal I wonder what that will cost and if she has enough money left on the magic money tree at the back of 10 Downing Street?


----------



## Arnie83

This sums up why I didn't want it to happen ...

From CNN Business Perspectives:

When it is complete, Brexit will slow the momentum of trade integration that has done so much to create a global middle class and lift hundreds of millions from poverty around the world. In short, this will be the biggest win to date for country-first populism. Brexit will further fragment a global political system that's already fracturing, and it will generate greater friction in global markets.

Today's conflicts among the world's great power are fought over trade and investment. *The achievement of Brexit will mark a milestone toward a much more contentious international order.*​
Just an opinion of course, but one I share.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> She is threatening to ditch the DUP to push through the deal I wonder what that will cost and if she has enough money left on the magic money tree at the back of 10 Downing Street?


Well I'm hoping the DUP stick to their principles and refuse further bribes to keep May in office under the circumstances, but we'll wait and see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

News leaked to German Newspaper Suddeutsche. A Deal is to be made in Brussels tomorrow (Sunday) and agreed by the UK on Monday.

















https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik...-brexit-deal-soll-am-sonntag-stehen-1.4168879

Daily Mail is also reporting this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6273095/amp/Brexit-deal-TOMORROW-UK-government-approves-Monday.html


----------



## Magyarmum

In the view of the report below, maybe the UK government isn't so stupid after all in appointing a Minister for Suicide Prevention.

https://www.france24.com/en/2018101...ebdo_bestof]-20181012-[contenu]-1171384706311

http://time.com/5421554/minister-for-suicide-prevention-uk/


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> In the view of the report below, maybe the UK government isn't so stupid after all in appointing a Minister for Suicide Prevention.
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/2018101...ebdo_bestof]-20181012-[contenu]-1171384706311
> 
> http://time.com/5421554/minister-for-suicide-prevention-uk/


I think it's social media causing most of it. Some of the utter crap that people are expected to believe and "live up" to is ridiculous and the extremists are taking over because they are the ones that are posting the most


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> News leaked to German Newspaper Suddeutsche. A Deal is to be made in Brussels tomorrow (Sunday) and agreed by the UK on Monday.
> 
> View attachment 371908
> 
> View attachment 371910
> 
> https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik...-brexit-deal-soll-am-sonntag-stehen-1.4168879
> 
> Daily Mail is also reporting this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6273095/amp/Brexit-deal-TOMORROW-UK-government-approves-Monday.html


Just following up on this after reading the rest of the translation as the paper is in German.

Here is the rest of the news article in English:


> At the center of the negotiations on Saturday, there was still the question of what a backstop could look like if there were no free trade agreement between Brussels and London after the transition phase that runs until the end of 2020.
> 
> To avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, a possible compromise solution emerged. Northern Ireland could thus remain in the European internal market for a limited period of time, which would make controls at the inner border superfluous. The rest of the UK could in turn remain linked to the EU in a customs union.
> 
> On the other hand, there was resistance from Northern Ireland on Saturday. The Northern Irish party DUP once again rejected any rule that treated Northern Ireland differently than the rest of the kingdom. In order to get a Brexit agreement through the British Parliament, Prime Minister Theresa May needs the support of the DUP.
> 
> If there is an agreement this weekend, it should be discussed on the EU side on Tuesday in the General Council and then approved by the 27Heads of State and Government at their EU summit meeting on Wednesday evening . For the day after it is noted: "Deal with Theresa May confirmed in the European Council".
> 
> Negotiators understand the exit agreement as a "deal" and an "overview of the political declaration on the future EU-UK relationship". Finally, at a special Brexit summit in November, the European Council will endorse the package as a whole. In January and February, the ratification of the Brexit deal by the UK and the European Parliament is envisaged.
> 
> At the end of the paper there are still three dates for the further schedule. At 29 . The UK will leave the EU in March 2019 and the agreed transition period will begin on the following day, when "nothing changes in trade, in free circulation, etc." During this time, the EU and Britain want to negotiate the future relationship. The transitional period ends on 1 January 2021 and the new relationship between the EU and the United Kingdom is set to begin.


----------



## KittenKong

This is absolutely appalling if true.

This is not about Brexit. It's about saving Theresa May.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...leave-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-a8581511.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This is absolutely appalling if true.
> 
> This is not about Brexit. It's about saving Theresa May.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...leave-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-a8581511.html
> View attachment 371933


I do believe there was something during the week saying 30 Labour MP's were going to back May's deal. Has this figure gone up?

It looks as if a deal has been reached according to a leak to a German Newspaper I mentioned above.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I do believe there was something during the week saying 30 Labour MP's were going to back May's deal. Has this figure gone up?
> 
> It looks as if a deal has been reached according to a leak to a German Newspaper I mentioned above.


The actual Independent article isn't quite as bad as the headline. They believe around 15 Labour MPs will defy Corbyn, assuming he chooses to exercise the whip in voting against May.

If that's true she can afford around 20 from her own party to rebel and also depends whether she can bribe, sorry persuade the DUP to back her up.

At the moment it's all speculation. These papers have "Exclusives" to sell papers after all.

They were past reports of Tories were to rebel against May when they didn't at the last minute for example.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The actual Independent article isn't quite as bad as the headline. They believe around 15 Labour MPs will defy Corbyn, assuming he chooses to exercise the whip in voting against May.
> 
> If that's true she can afford around 20 from her own party to rebel and also depends whether she can bribe, sorry persuade the DUP to back her up.
> 
> At the moment it's all speculation. These papers have "Exclusives" to sell papers after all.
> 
> They were past reports of Tories were to rebel against May when they didn't at the last minute for example.


The Sun, Express, Daily Mail and Mirror are now reporting the same story that a deal has been done and will be finalised by tomorrow (Sunday). The Deal will mean the UK remains tied to the EU until Christmas 2021.

The Tories are ahead of Labour in the polls by 4 points.

Andrea Leadsom is set to stay as the Leader of the House of Commons. The DWP minister is the only minister threatening to resign now.


----------



## rona

Odd that the BBC have ignored this rumour


----------



## stockwellcat.

The news broke via a German newspaper earlier today and seems to have only started filtering through the UK press. Let's see if it happens as there has been so many twists and turns.


----------



## kimthecat

I wonder when they will announce it .


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The news broke via a German newspaper earlier today and seems to have only started filtering through the UK press. Let's see if it happens as there has been so many twists and turns.


The BBC appear to have a different take on the latest attempt at protecting Theresa May's job, sorry getting her Chequers deal accepted.

They'll be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of the fence should she succeed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45853384


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The BBC appear to have a different take on the latest attempt at protecting Theresa May's job, sorry getting her Chequers deal accepted.
> 
> They'll be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of the fence should she succeed.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45853384
> 
> View attachment 371958
> View attachment 371959
> View attachment 371960


I have been wondering if the German Newspaper reporting this is just spinning things. We will see I guess as there has been so many twists and turns with Brexit. If it is untrue the German Newspaper should apologise for the fake news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> They'll be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of the fence should she succeed.


I think either way there is going to be unhappy people.

Some Labour MP's seem to be prepared to vote for May's deal to get it through Parliament thus defying Corbyn's Labour Whip.

I have 2 MP's on my mind who I know who will vote for May's deal:
Kate Hoey
Gisela Stuart


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I have 2 MP's on my mind who I know who will vote for May's deal:
> Kate Hoey
> Gisela Stuart


Stuart perhaps but not sure about Hoey. I would expect the latter to take the ERG stance and vote against.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I have been wondering if the German Newspaper reporting this is just spinning things. We will see I guess as there has been so many twists and turns with Brexit. If it is untrue the German Newspaper should apologise for the fake news.


I guess like any other country Germany has its fair share of such papers. I remember Goblin referring to one which he described as, "The German Sun" which says it all.

I wouldn't expect an apology if the news did turn out to be false. The UK tabloids seldom do so I doubt they would elsewhere.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I think either way there is going to be unhappy people.


If they remained brexiters would obviously be unhappy and vice versa.

With May's deal very few on either side would be happy!


----------



## KittenKong

Speaking of take news, this is an appalling example from The Sun, who have reported to have withdrawn the "article".

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016...-ww2-veteran-from-remembrance-sunday-service/


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I have been wondering if the German Newspaper reporting this is just spinning things. We will see I guess as there has been so many twists and turns with Brexit. If it is untrue the German Newspaper should apologise for the fake news.


The SuddeutcheZeitung is one of Germany's major newspapers. printed in Munich Bavaria and politically slightly left of centre.

As it's not some tin pot little publication one would expect its sources of information to be credible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Süddeutsche_Zeitung

On a much lighter note I thought this video posted on another Brexit forum was amusing, (irrespective of one's political views), and extremely well done

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> The SuddeutcheZeitung is one of Germany's major newspapers. printed in Munich Bavaria and politically slightly left of centre.
> 
> As it's not some tin pot little publication one would expect its sources of information to be credible
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Süddeutsche_Zeitung
> 
> On a much lighter note I thought this video posted on another Brexit forum was amusing, (irrespective of one's political views), and extremely well done
> 
> .


Well the leak is from a memo that the paper managed to get hold of. The deal is to be done today in Brussels but reading between the lines the official public announcement won't happen until tomorrow or Wednesday when a statement will be read out by Raab and Barnier.

I am surprised none of the major news channels aren't reporting on the leaked memo like Sky News, BBC News etc.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, this is what The Guardian/Observer are reporting this morning!


----------



## Arnie83

David Davis has written a piece for the Times today, with some questionable claims in it.

One of the claims I agree with is:

"Trade deals are by far the biggest economic upside for Brexit."​
But that really does need to be put into context. Davis, of course, includes no figures.

From the government's own analysis, though, new free trade deals around the world, with the USA, China, India, TPP, ASEAN, GCC, Australia and New Zealand would provide a boost to GDP of between *+0.2% and +0.7%*.

Their estimate of the costs of a No Deal Brexit are a loss to GDP of between *-5% and -11%*.

Other estimates for No Deal Brexit losses:

Open Europe c. *-3%*
IEA c. *-3%*
PWC/CBI c. *-4%*
Oxford Economics c. *-5%*
World Bank c. *-8%*
NIESR c. *-8%*
GED c. *-11%*
LSE dynamic c. *-12%*
Rabobank c. *-18%*​
If anyone has other figures, I'd be interested to see them.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am surprised none of the major news channels aren't reporting on the leaked memo like Sky News, BBC News etc.


The BBC News website has mentioned this though, see post #2667.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the leak is from a memo that the paper managed to get hold of. The deal is to be done today in Brussels but reading between the lines the official public announcement won't happen until tomorrow or Wednesday when a statement will be read out by Raab and Barnier.
> 
> I am surprised none of the major news channels aren't reporting on the leaked memo like Sky News, BBC News etc.


It could be because the negotiations have reached such a critical point, the press and media have been requested to keep quiet about it so as not to complicate things further.

And of course it would be taking away TM's moment of glory when she arrives home, and rather like Neville Chamberlain waves her piece of paper saying words to the effect "See all you doubters I've bin an gone an done it"!

Maybe,who knows, the government has gone as far as placing a D notice on them- something Harold Wilson was fond of doing

Pure speculation of course but not impossible.

http://powerbase.info/index.php/Defence_and_Security_Media_Advisory_(DSMA)_Notice_System

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jul/31/d-notice-system-state-media-press-freedom


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> It could be because the negotiations have reached such a critical point, the press and media have been requested to keep quiet about it so as not to complicate things further.
> 
> And of course it would be taking away TM's moment of glory when she arrives home, and rather like Neville Chamberlain waves her piece of paper saying words to the effect "See all you doubters I've bin an gone an done it"!


A vision I can only see as an absolute nightmare.

As a hardened remainer the one thing for me worse than brexit is brexit on Theresa May's terms....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As a hardened remainer the one thing for me worse than brexit is brexit on Theresa May's terms....


JRM's terms then or Davis's terms or Boris's terms any better as they are the choices?

Or the Canada +++ that Donald Tusk is offering which has many catches in it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I agree with IDS and the Brexitier MP's. Sorry if you disagree with me but I did not vote to half stay in the EU. I am not answering silly questions going why etc. May's deal is doomed and won't get through Parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The following Cabinet MP's have said they are considering their positions at the moment and are poised to quit because of May's deal:

Andrea Leadsom, Leader of the House of Commons
DWP boss Esther McVey
Aid secretary Penny Mordaunt

Scottish Secretary David Mundell and Scottish Tory boss Ruth Davidson have said they could resign if Northern Ireland faces new controls - because it would fuel the case for Scottish independence.

A newspaper is reporting...



> MPs are said to have handed in more letters saying they have no confidence in the Prime Minister.
> 
> Several more were handed in to the chairman of the Tory Party 1922 committee in the past few weeks - and only four more could be needed to launch a vote of no confidence in the PM.
> 
> If she loses that vote, then a leadership challenge could be called.


----------



## stockwellcat.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/14/brexit-theresa-mays-terms-would-worst-worlds/amp/

This is a premium article btw.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371835
> 
> 
> https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2...th-chronic-illnesses-such-as-type-1-diabetes/


I wanted to follow up on this as IDS the architect of Universal Credit is saying in not so many words that it needs pausing and an extra £2bn urgently spent on it.

This was on Sky News earlier this year. Disgusting.





The Tory Party 1922 committee has received 44 of the 48 letters of no confidence needed to trigger a vote of no confidence from Tory MP's against Theresa May it has been announced today. Only 4 more are needed. May is not listening to anyone except the voices in her head (as people suffer because of Universal Credit). MP's in Parliament just this week gone pleaded with Downing Street to pause the roll out of Universal Credit, even the DWP minister admitted people are and are going to be worse off on Universal Credit. Downing Street dismissed what the DWP minister said and what the MP's said in Parliament. I hope Theresa May gets ousted if there is a vote of no confidence?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> JRM's terms then or Davis's terms or Boris's terms any better as they are the choices?
> 
> Or the Canada +++ that Donald Tusk is offering which has many catches in it?


I don't like any of them, but I especially don't want to see May bailed out as a hero by the press and her as PM for the next decade which is a possible outcome in that scenario.

It's encouraging to see much opposition within her own party plus the DUP and the possible resignations over them.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, it seems Andrea Leadsom is no better than Theresa May re her sudden change of stance. I was not familiar with this recording from 2013 until it was mentioned on Twitter.

Came as a bit of a shock to hear this to be honest. Most unexpected.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well, it seems Andrea Leadsom is no better than Theresa May re her sudden change of stance. I was not familiar with this recording from 2013 until it was mentioned on Twitter.
> 
> Came as a bit of a shock to hear this to be honest. Most unexpected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 371994
> View attachment 371995


Before we started the negotiations she said there would be a "Brexit dividend" "in the region of net £10 bn a year".

Not even the most deluded Tory Brexiter is claiming that any more.


----------



## cheekyscrip

BoJo also one time thought Brexit was bad and a close friend and ally of Cameron. And Gove. Govf who recently pledged alliance to May, but if there is vacancy...
Lothsome, Gove, BoJo, Davies proved rather a fiasco in their previous roles, but they shamelessly scramble to be the next PM.

World looks at that with mixture of disbelief and disdain.
It was a prosperous country with growing economy and well respected around the world.
Utter shambles.
Putin must be laughing...


----------



## Arnie83

Andrea Jenkyns MP #StandUp4Brexit

✔@andreajenkyns

*It is better to go down fighting and honouring the democratic decision of our British people.* Then to be long remembered for waving a white flag and surrendering to EU demands. All Brexiteers in Gov and on the backbenches its time to #StandUp4Brexit and finally #ChuckChequers.

This just beggars belief. It is better to do what is best for the British people whose interests you are supposed to be protecting, you stupid woman!

There is no tribal glory in going down with the ship when there are options to keep it afloat. What an absolutely ridiculous ideological approach to take!


----------



## Arnie83

For info ...


Michel Barnier

✔@MichelBarnier
We met today @DominicRaab and UK negotiating team. Despite intense efforts, some key issues are still open, including the backstop for IE/NI to avoid a hard border. I will debrief the EU27 and @Europarl_EN on the #Brexit negotiations.

6:43 PM - Oct 14, 2018


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Andrea Jenkyns MP #StandUp4Brexit
> 
> ✔@andreajenkyns
> 
> *It is better to go down fighting and honouring the democratic decision of our British people.* Then to be long remembered for waving a white flag and surrendering to EU demands. All Brexiteers in Gov and on the backbenches its time to #StandUp4Brexit and finally #ChuckChequers.
> 
> This just beggars belief. It is better to do what is best for the British people whose interests you are supposed to be protecting, you stupid woman!
> 
> There is no tribal glory in going down with the ship when there are options to keep it afloat. What an absolutely ridiculous ideological approach to take!


Incompetence of our MPs beggars belief!
Pleas understand there isn't anyone serious and sensible, honest and straight to deliver Brexit.

Those people voted for Remain and did not switch sides like few career politicians who fight to death for the throne, to hell with the country and the people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Financial Times








https://www.ft.com/content/e5ecd62a-cfcc-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


----------



## KittenKong

http://uk.businessinsider.com/there...ut-labour-mps-backing-her-brexit-deal-2018-10


----------



## stockwellcat.

A big u-turn on yesterdays newspaper headlines.




























I reckon that the meeting with EU leaders in November will just be to say there is no deal. No deal can be reached on the Irish Border and this is why the negotiations are at an impasse again.

Ministers are being told to start making preparations to implement plans for no deal.

My bet is on we will be out before Christmas.


----------



## Magyarmum

*EL PAÍS*

*Gibraltar admits there will be tax and customs deals with Spain after Brexit*
*A specific protocol on the British Overseas Territory is set to be added to the wider UK withdrawal agreement from the EU*

MIGUEL GONZÁLEZ
Madrid 15 OCT 2018 - 11:09 CEST








Chief Minister Fabian Picardo in September 2017. JON NAZCA REUTERS
The government of Gibraltar has admitted that London and Brussels are putting the final touches to a specific protocol for the British Overseas Territory in the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, and that there will be "a set of practical measures spelled out in separate arrangements with Spain covering tax cooperation, police and customs cooperation, the environment, citizens' rights and tobacco."

Talks have intensified ahead of a European Council meeting on Wednesday to review the state of negotiations with the UK over "Brexit," the process by which the country will leave the 28-member bloc.

EL PAÍS reported on September 17 that Spain wanted Gibraltar's status to be encoded in a separate protocol, and that its contents were being negotiated between Madrid and London, the Gibraltarian government stated that there was no bilateral dialogue between the UK and Spain. Instead, it only admitted to "discreet contacts" between Madrid, London and Gibraltar, without offering any details.

But as negotiations over Brexit enter the final stretch, Gibraltar has now admitted that there will be "a specific protocol" in the Withdrawal Agreement, mirroring similar protocols for Northern Ireland and the British sovereign base areas in Cyprus.

In a press release following an extraordinary session of the Cabinet on Saturday, the Gibraltar government noted that the UK remains responsible for entering into international agreements on behalf of Gibraltar, but added that the Picardo administration "has made it clear that the practical implementation of the benefits and obligations of such agreements can only rest with the Gibraltar Government."

"There will be a set of practical measures spelled out in separate arrangements with Spain covering tax cooperation, police and customs cooperation, the environment, citizens' rights and tobacco. These will be time limited, where necessary, to the end of the transition period, which is December 2020," the government says in its statement.

*No sovereignty claims*
Spain's Foreign Minister Josep Borrell has already specified that sovereignty over the disputed territory is not part of the negotiations. Gibraltar, which is located in the south of the Iberian Peninsula, was ceded to Great Britain in 1713 under the Treaty of Utrecht.

Borrell, of the Spanish Socialist Party (PSOE), has also expressed a desire to see an agreement on Gibraltar as a first step, rather than a hurdle, on the road to reaching a wider UK-EU deal on Brexit. Gibraltar has already warned that "no deal is better than a bad deal" and that "the government continues to prepare for all eventualities, including the possibility of a no-deal Brexit."

In order to facilitate an agreement on Gibraltar, Madrid has parked its claims for joint operation of the airport, which was built on land that that Spain does not consider to be part of the British Overseas Territory.

*CHIEF DEMANDS*

*Smuggling. *Gibraltar is the biggest entry point for illegal tobacco products into Spain. Last year authorities seized more than 600,000 cartons of cigarettes, a 158% rise from 2016, official data shows. Madrid wants the price of tobacco, which is much lower in Gibraltar, to be raised to make illegal trafficking less attractive.

*Taxes.* There are 55,000 registered businesses in a territory of just over 30,000 residents. Madrid wants stricter tax-residence criteria to prevent businesses that operate in Spain from registering in Gibraltar for tax-avoidance purposes.

*Workers.* Madrid wants more stable conditions for the 10,000 to 12,000 workers who cross from Campo de Gibraltar to "The Rock" each day.

Susana Urra.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Ministers are being told to start making preparations to implement plans for no deal.
> 
> My bet is on we will be out before Christmas.


I doubt that very much. It'll take a good few months to convert the Kent motorways into lorry parks and arrange for the erection of a border in Ireland, though with the latter I guess the army would suffice for the moment.

May will of course proportion blame on the EU for not sacrificing their principles to save her job and hostile environment policy.

But what will Parliament say? Others including Johnson and Corbyn have their own dellusional Brexit plans. May completely dismissed them in favour of her own.

And what about the voters? Not everyone who voted leave wants no deal in the same sense not everyone voted remain for what I believe in.

Many believed the spin about the UK holding all the cards, FOM to persist as now but not for people coming into the UK.

That's not the fault of the EU for not putting the needs of the UK and its people above the 27 member states.

Some Brexiters I know are extremely worried about the prospect of a no deal, not helped by the government's own "Project Fear" campaign to scare people into accepting TM's Chequers plan.

Theresa May is a failure. Just look at how well Universal Credit is working. Though she cannot be blamed for that personally, unlike her own cruel Hostile environment policy, she intends to press ahead with it.

With such gross incompetence coupled with wickedness, how can she make a "success" of Brexit with this track record?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I doubt that very much. It'll take a good few months to convert the Kent motorways into lorry parks and arrange for the erection of a border in Ireland, though with the latter I guess the army would suffice for the moment.
> 
> May will of course proportion blame on the EU for not sacrificing their principles to save her job and hostile environment policy.
> 
> But what will Parliament say? Others including Johnson and Corbyn have their own dellusional Brexit plans. May completely dismissed them in favour of her own.
> 
> And what about the voters? Not everyone who voted leave wants no deal in the same sense not everyone voted remain for what I believe in.
> 
> Many believed the spin about the UK holding all the cards, FOM to persist as now but not for people coming into the UK.
> 
> That's not the fault of the EU for not putting the needs of the UK and its people above the 27 member states.
> 
> Some Brexiters I know are extremely worried about the prospect of a no deal, not helped by the government's own "Project Fear" campaign to scare people into accepting TM's Chequers plan.
> 
> Theresa May is a failure. Just look at how well Universal Credit is working. Though she cannot be blamed for that personally, unlike her Hostile environment policy, she intends to press ahead with it.
> 
> How can a government so incompetent make a "success" of Brexit with this track record?


Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. At the moment the Irish Back Stop is the reason why there is now an impasse from yesterdays meeting. Fast heading to a no deal. If the EU say no deal in the October summit then in November they will declare no deal was reached and Parliament won't have a say.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 372126
> View attachment 372127


Oh yes?

"And I had a friend who had a friend who said he danced with the Queen of England".

Hearsay!


----------



## KittenKong

A question asked on FB's "The 48%" page. Interesting...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. At the moment the Irish Back Stop is the reason why there is now an impasse from yesterdays meeting. Fast heading to a no deal. If the EU say no deal in the October summit then in November they will declare no deal was reached and Parliament won't have a say.


Perhaps Parliament won't have a say but it won't prevent criticism towards May's failure to get a deal, seeing she's written off other's plans, eg Boris Johnson's, in favour of her own.

It was always going to be May's deal to the exclusion of all others or nothing. Even Jeremy Corbyn offered to help her.

Then, it's only Monday. A lot can happen in 48 hours.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps Parliament won't have a say but it won't prevent criticism towards May's failure to get a deal, seeing she's written off other's plans, eg Boris Johnson's, in favour of her own.
> 
> It was always going to be May's deal to the exclusion of all others or nothing. Even Jeremy Corbyn offered to help her.
> 
> Then, it's only Monday. A lot can happen in 48 hours.


May wants a time limited back stop meaning it will end when the transition period ends. The EU say no it has to be permanent. The DUP are threatening to withdraw support from May because the EU won't budge. May is making a statement at 3:30pm to try and reassure the DUP that the backstop will be time limited and update Parliament on what is happening.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....impose-backstop-to-the-backstop-politics-live


----------



## kimthecat

Hands up who knows how to get out this!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Hands up who knows how to get out this!


Did you see the comments this got on twitter?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Did you see the comments this got on twitter?


No. I saw this on the D M website . What were they saying ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> No. I saw this on the D M website . What were they saying ?


Guess 
Remainers couldn't help themselves to throw a few digs at Jeremy Hunt.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here's Jeremy Hunts twitter feed @kimthecat:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1051512481435275265


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Guess
> Remainers couldn't help themselves to throw a few digs at Jeremy Hunt.


:Hilarious I can imagine.

Its a nightmare really


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> *Perhaps Parliament won't have a say *but it won't prevent criticism towards May's failure to get a deal, seeing she's written off other's plans, eg Boris Johnson's, in favour of her own.
> 
> It was always going to be May's deal to the exclusion of all others or nothing. Even Jeremy Corbyn offered to help her.
> 
> Then, it's only Monday. A lot can happen in 48 hours.


Parliament will have a say. The UK is not a dictatorship and May will no more be able impose No Deal than she could impose Chequers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Parliament will have a say. The UK is not a dictatorship and May will no more be able impose No Deal than she could impose Chequers.


They won't if the EU say its no deal which is where this is going.

Parliament channel 3:30pm (Freeview channel 232). TM is making a statement to the house of commons.


----------



## KittenKong

A transition issue lasting some 50 years?

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

http://newsthump.com/2018/08/01/pay...ed-on-m20-near-dover-in-readiness-for-brexit/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> http://newsthump.com/2018/08/01/pay...ed-on-m20-near-dover-in-readiness-for-brexit/
> 
> View attachment 372141


 :Hilarious

Traffic wardens will be busy in Kent. Are they advertising for extra staff? :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 372140
> 
> 
> A transition issue lasting some 50 years?
> 
> :Hilarious


But what Rees-Moggy failed to mention was that it works both ways.

If we have chaos in Dover then the chances there'll also be chaos in Calais and all the other EU ports!

Quite an old article but one that's still as true now as it was when it was written!

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180309/calais-port-could-see-30-mile-long-tailbacks-after-brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well if the EU declare no deal and the UK gets a deal with the US logistics will be easy. Fly everything in via Belfast, ship by sea to Scotland (very quick ferry crossing from Larne to Stranraer and then transport them across land seeing as the EU want to impose restrictions on air traffic into the UK.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Traffic wardens will be busy in Kent. Are they advertising for extra staff? :Hilarious


In case anyone is taking it seriously perhaps it should be pointed out that News Thump is spoof news and satire,and as such be taken with a very large pinch of salt!

https://newsthump.com/about-us/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> They won't if the EU say its no deal which is where this is going.
> 
> Parliament channel 3:30pm (Freeview channel 232). TM is making a statement to the house of commons.


If the EU itself says no deal it'll be Theresa May's plan they'll rejecting.

Others, including from within her own party, have their own Brexit plans she has in turn rejected, as she has rejected help from others.

It'll be her mess she'll have to explain to Parliament. She can't (yet) force them no say in the matter however much she believes she can. She doesn't even have a parliamentary majority for heavens sake.

People from her own party warned her to drop Chequers but would she listen?


----------



## stockwellcat.

They are debating Universal Credit at the moment on the Parliament Channel.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The House of Commons is packed.

EDITED
Theresa May has arrived. The DWP questions has run over time.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 372140
> 
> 
> A transition issue lasting some 50 years?
> 
> :Hilarious


For a supposed patriot, he seems very happy to impose considerable damage on the country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM says real progress has been made good in recent weeks. The text for the UK's departure from the EU has been made clear and agreed to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM is not willing to accept a border in the Irish sea cutting Northern Ireland from the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> But what Rees-Moggy failed to mention was that it works both ways.
> 
> If we have chaos in Dover then the chances there'll also be chaos in Calais and all the other EU ports!
> 
> Quite an old article but one that's still as true now as it was when it was written!
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20180309/calais-port-could-see-30-mile-long-tailbacks-after-brexit


No Deal would be bad for the rest of the EU as well as the UK; though worse for us. Which is why only a handful of fanatics in the Tory party actively want it to happen, and why it still probably won't, in my opinion.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The PM insists the negotiations regarding the back stop are going well regardless of what the press is saying and she insists the back stop should only be temporary.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> The PM insists the negotiations regarding the back stop are going well regardless of what the press is saying and she insists the back stop should only be temporary.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45868503

*Theresa May says Brexit deal still 'achievable' despite differences*


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> No Deal would be bad for the rest of the EU as well as the UK; though worse for us. Which is why only a handful of fanatics in the Tory party actively want it to happen, and why it still probably won't, in my opinion.


IMO this article just about sums up the whole situation namely that Article 50 was never "fit for purpose"

*"Article 50's 'ticking clock' put a loaded gun to everybody's head by stating that if there was no agreement during its strict 24-month negotiating timescale, the UK would simply cease to be a member in March 2019, and default to the direst of trading terms".*

This is the full article .....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45811739


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> TM is not willing to accept a border in the Irish sea cutting Northern Ireland from the UK.


Well, if we want a hard Brexit, or end up with a No Deal scenarion, there will have to be a hard border _somewhere._ That's a WTO rule, not an EU rule.

Heaven help us if they decide that sending in the Army will have to do in the short term...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> *EL PAÍS*
> 
> *Gibraltar admits there will be tax and customs deals with Spain after Brexit*
> *A specific protocol on the British Overseas Territory is set to be added to the wider UK withdrawal agreement from the EU*
> 
> MIGUEL GONZÁLEZ
> Madrid 15 OCT 2018 - 11:09 CEST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chief Minister Fabian Picardo in September 2017. JON NAZCA REUTERS
> The government of Gibraltar has admitted that London and Brussels are putting the final touches to a specific protocol for the British Overseas Territory in the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, and that there will be "a set of practical measures spelled out in separate arrangements with Spain covering tax cooperation, police and customs cooperation, the environment, citizens' rights and tobacco."
> 
> Talks have intensified ahead of a European Council meeting on Wednesday to review the state of negotiations with the UK over "Brexit," the process by which the country will leave the 28-member bloc.
> 
> EL PAÍS reported on September 17 that Spain wanted Gibraltar's status to be encoded in a separate protocol, and that its contents were being negotiated between Madrid and London, the Gibraltarian government stated that there was no bilateral dialogue between the UK and Spain. Instead, it only admitted to "discreet contacts" between Madrid, London and Gibraltar, without offering any details.
> 
> But as negotiations over Brexit enter the final stretch, Gibraltar has now admitted that there will be "a specific protocol" in the Withdrawal Agreement, mirroring similar protocols for Northern Ireland and the British sovereign base areas in Cyprus.
> 
> In a press release following an extraordinary session of the Cabinet on Saturday, the Gibraltar government noted that the UK remains responsible for entering into international agreements on behalf of Gibraltar, but added that the Picardo administration "has made it clear that the practical implementation of the benefits and obligations of such agreements can only rest with the Gibraltar Government."
> 
> "There will be a set of practical measures spelled out in separate arrangements with Spain covering tax cooperation, police and customs cooperation, the environment, citizens' rights and tobacco. These will be time limited, where necessary, to the end of the transition period, which is December 2020," the government says in its statement.
> 
> *No sovereignty claims*
> Spain's Foreign Minister Josep Borrell has already specified that sovereignty over the disputed territory is not part of the negotiations. Gibraltar, which is located in the south of the Iberian Peninsula, was ceded to Great Britain in 1713 under the Treaty of Utrecht.
> 
> Borrell, of the Spanish Socialist Party (PSOE), has also expressed a desire to see an agreement on Gibraltar as a first step, rather than a hurdle, on the road to reaching a wider UK-EU deal on Brexit. Gibraltar has already warned that "no deal is better than a bad deal" and that "the government continues to prepare for all eventualities, including the possibility of a no-deal Brexit."
> 
> In order to facilitate an agreement on Gibraltar, Madrid has parked its claims for joint operation of the airport, which was built on land that that Spain does not consider to be part of the British Overseas Territory.
> 
> *CHIEF DEMANDS*
> 
> *Smuggling. *Gibraltar is the biggest entry point for illegal tobacco products into Spain. Last year authorities seized more than 600,000 cartons of cigarettes, a 158% rise from 2016, official data shows. Madrid wants the price of tobacco, which is much lower in Gibraltar, to be raised to make illegal trafficking less attractive.
> 
> *Taxes.* There are 55,000 registered businesses in a territory of just over 30,000 residents. Madrid wants stricter tax-residence criteria to prevent businesses that operate in Spain from registering in Gibraltar for tax-avoidance purposes.
> 
> *Workers.* Madrid wants more stable conditions for the 10,000 to 12,000 workers who cross from Campo de Gibraltar to "The Rock" each day.
> 
> Susana Urra.


Funny, higher taxes means companies will move elsewhere, many jobs will go, for Spanish and for everyone else, Spain will publicly accuse Gibraltar to make Spanish people unemployed!!!
The tax deal fear is felt, clients are moving away in droves , worried about tax on income on pension products, while in Malta no restrictions and no tax.
Thank you Brexiteers for wantonly ruining our economy, oh, and yours.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> IMO this article just about sums up the whole situation namely that Article 50 was never "fit for purpose"
> 
> *"Article 50's 'ticking clock' put a loaded gun to everybody's head by stating that if there was no agreement during its strict 24-month negotiating timescale, the UK would simply cease to be a member in March 2019, and default to the direst of trading terms".*
> 
> This is the full article .....
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45811739


Hmm, I'm sure there are faults in Article 50, that may even be amended for the future (though I doubt it) but there are some mitigating factors in the case of Brexit.

For a start it can be extended if 2 years isn't enough.

The Tories triggered A50 before they were anywhere near an agreed negotiating position so the first 18 months of the 2 years were pretty much wasted. (And then we came up with Chequers!)

And we have the added complication of the Irish border, which no other country leaving the EU would encounter. And on top of that May announced incompatible red lines that made an easy negotiation all but impossible.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's are still quizzing TM in Parliament on Freeview Parliament Channel 232.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45868503
> 
> *Theresa May says Brexit deal still 'achievable' despite differences*


If you want to hear what is actually being said instead of a reporter for the media is reporting turn over to freeview channel 232 as the media have a habbit of blowing things out of proportion.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The Tories triggered A50 before they were anywhere near an agreed negotiating position so the first 18 months of the 2 years were pretty much wasted. (And then we came up with Chequers!).


Ahem. The house of commons overwhelmingly voted in favour of triggering article 50 (498 in favour and 114 against majority 384 on the 1st February 2017). You will find the majority of MP's from all parties voted for article 50 to be triggered. You cannot lay the blame solely at the Tory party.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> TM says real progress has been made good in recent weeks. The text for the UK's departure from the EU has been made clear and agreed to.


How often have we heard that? It's become a sondbite as famous as her rest.



stockwellcat. said:


> TM is not willing to accept a border in the Irish sea cutting Northern Ireland from the UK.


I thought she wouldn't risk upsetting Arlene. Her job depends on her!



stockwellcat. said:


> Ahem. The house of commons overwhelmingly voted in favour of triggering article 50 (498 in favour and 114 against majority 384 on the 1st February 2017). You will find the majority of MP's from all parties voted for article 50 to be triggered. You cannot lay the blame solely at the Tory party.


True actually. Rumour has it Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the referendum.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> True actually. Rumour has it Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the referendum.


Cameron said he would do that as well but resigned instead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> True actually.


I know it's true I posted the results as they happened on a previous thread


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How often have we heard that? It's become a sondbite as famous as her rest.


That's what you are accusing her of yes. But are you in the negotiating team? Do you attend the negotiations? No

We have to take her word for it, oh wait a minute no we don't because Mr Barnier is saying the same thing.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> True actually. Rumour has it Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the referendum.


If he told her to go jump in a lake .............................................................
I don't think 'he told me to do it' is going to work here. The opposition call for a lot of things.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> The opposition call for a lot of things.


No. They get largely ignored. Until recently Corbyn agreed with May all the way and even until today he still wants Brexit to happen (he mentioned it today when questioning May).


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Rumour has it Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered the morning after the referendum.


Wouldn't surprise me.

Fact remains that it was triggered by May, under pressure from the Brexiter Tories way before it was sensible to do so. I've always thought it was because they wanted to get on with things before the campaign promises started dissolving in the cold light of day and the actual consequences of Brexit became known.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Fact remains that it was triggered by May, under pressure from the Brexiter Tories


Under pressure from the House of Commons more like who voted overwhelmingly in favour to trigger Article 50. They could have rejected the bill but they didn't.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Under pressure from the House of Commons more like who voted overwhelmingly in favour to trigger Article 50. *They could have rejected the bill but they didn't*.


They should hang theirs head in shame!


----------



## noushka05

MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN in the real world >>>>>>>>>>>

*win Hayward*‏ @uk_domain_names
Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. 1/47

To leave the EU, we are following the rules laid down in Article 50. A50 is a short, simple document that explains how a country can choose to leave the EU. (The UK was fully involved with producing A50. Indeed, a Brit - Lord Kerr - even drafted it!) 2/47 http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html …

As EU members, we currently benefit from over 750 international treaties. Some allow us to trade freely with the EU and 40+ non-EU countries. Others cover a host of other issues, from air worthiness to drivers licenses, UK & EU citizens rights, food safety, etc. 3/47










The third rule of Article 50 states that all EU treaties will automatically cease to apply to a country 2 years after it chooses to invoke Article 50. In the UK's case, that's 29 March 2019 at 11pm UK time. Let's call that "Brexit Day". 4/47

(Think of the Article 50 process as a conveyor belt, with a pool of sharks at the end. Anyone climbing onto the conveyor belt will automatically reach the end after 2 years, and fall into the sharks. Theresa May knew that's how A50 worked, yet she invoked it anyway.) 5/

On Brexit Day we leave the EU. That means we also lose the benefits of all those 750+ EU treaties we participate in. All the treaties end just like that, as if we'd fed them all through a giant shredder. That's not the EU being vindictive, it's just how A50 works. 6/

Think of it in terms of a gym membership. If you quit your gym membership, you can't use any of the fitness equipment any more. That's just obvious. Now, you might put on weight as a consequence, but you wouldn't claim the gym is punishing you for leaving by making you fat

The same logic applies to our decision to leave the EU. The EU isn't punishing us for Brexit. We are punishing ourselves. Losing all the benefits of EU membership IS the punishment! (That's not the same as saying the EU wants to make it easy on us.) 8/47

Back to those shredded treaties. When we Brexit, we lose all our free trade deals. As an EU member, the UK has free trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). They cover 60.7% of our imports & 66.9% of our exports. Losing them will tear the guts out of our economy. 9/4










We're back at square one, with half a century's worth of trade negotiations flushed away. A single trade deal can takes years or decades to agree. We will be waving goodbye to 78 of them. Of course, any one of them can be replaced, but that takes TIME. 10/47

Without trade deals, we are reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, designed as a baseline to make trade a bit less painful. It's the absolute worst situation, which is why countries strike trade deals to improve on WTO terms! 11/47

Under WTO, we control our own tariffs for imports (we can set them to zero if we want to). So if e.g. we're desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% to encourage other countries to sell them to us. However, we MUST treat every country in the world the same. 12/4

So we can have cheap things, but at the expense of our domestic industry. If we take away all the cabbage quotas and set a 0% tariff, anyone in the world can flood the UK with cheap cabbages. Great if you like cabbage. Pretty rubbish if you're a cabbage farmer. 13/47

But that's only half the picture. We have no control over other countries' import tariffs (the tariffs UK exporters will have to pay). So the EU and other countries will impose the standard WTO tariffs on everything we send to them. Indeed, under WTO rules, they HAVE to. 14/47

That automatically makes our exports more expensive. Combine that with the fact that we will no longer share common rules and standards and our exports will become MUCH less attractive. Why would a country buy our cars when they can buy the same cars from the EU cheaper? 15/4

The UK has done a brilliant job of attracting foreign companies and inward investment, generating millions of jobs. Companies come for our educated workforce and English language business environment, but mainly because we're a fantastic "gateway to Europe". 16/47

Now, a company can manufacture things in the UK and export them frictionlessly to the EU, the EEA and to other countries we have trade agreements with. But on Brexit Day, we're effectively walling up the gateway. Our free and easy export route will be cut off. 17/47

Many industries, such as the car industry, rely on just-in-time production. Instead of having big warehouses stuffed full of parts, they have fleets of trucks ferrying parts back and forth, arriving exactly when needed to be added to the production line. 18/47

A single car part might go back and forth between the UK and EU half a dozen times, being transformed into something more valuable at each step. (And a car has thousands of parts.) But just-in-time only works if you have frictionless borders. After Brexit, ours won't be. 19/47

Not unless we stay in the Single Market and the Customs Union. Which would save our industries, and stop foreign countries fleeing in droves. But that's kind of what we have right now, only a bit worse. Pointless, in other words. We'd be better off just staying in the EU. 20/4

But if we choose a different and more restrictive Brexit model, then we risk companies voting with their feet and leaving, taking jobs & investment with them. And if it introduces a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, that's a Godzilla-sized can of worms! 21/47h

So far, we've focused on trade. But our EU treaties cover tons things that we take pretty much for granted. Without them, our aircraft will no longer be certified to fly. The Eurostar, coach and ferry companies will also be affected. And Gibraltar. 22/47










Doctors, dentists and other professionals will no longer have the automatic right to practice in the EU. It will become difficult to take pets on holiday. Mobile phone roaming costs will increase. These are just a few examples out of many. 23/47

Note that the Government talks about "no deal", as if having a Brexit deal will solve our problems. It won't. We will lose all the treaties on Brexit Day even if we have a Withdrawal Agreement and a transition period. 24/47

A transition period would give us some of the same benefits as the treaties used to (by copying their conditions) but it does NOT prolong the treaties themselves. We can't replace treaties with new arrangements without the cooperation of both the EU & of non-EU countries. 25/47

That's because we do not have any power to bind other countries without their agreement. Each treaty will have to be renegotiated individually. That means there's a second "cliff edge" at the end of any transition period, because we're already out of the EU at that point. 26/47

Let's look a bit closer at "no deal". By default, we will automatically enter a "no deal" situation on Brexit Day, unless we agree and ratify a Withdrawal Agreement. Parliament has a say on any Brexit deal, but it doesn't have any say on "no deal". 27/47

That's because "no deal" isn't actually a deal at all. It's just an expression that (literally) describes the absence of any deals. The promise to Parliament of a "meaningful vote" only covers a vote on an actual deal. MPs can't vote on "nothing" which is what "no deal" is. 28/47

"No deal" has never been a real choice at all. It's what happens when negotiations fail & all the alternatives run out. If you fall off a building, you try grabbing at *anything* to break your fall. "no deal" is the strawberry jam splat as you hit the ground. 29/4

So that's "no deal". But what happens if we agree a Withdrawal Agreement, and somehow cobble a deal together? Well, the news isn't great... We still exit the EU on 29 March 2019 at 11pm (unless the WA somehow amends this). And that means we still lose all those treaties. 30/47

During transition, our leverage is almost zero. There's no threat we can make (we can't walk away, because we're already out, and we can't threaten "no deal" because we've already lost all our treaties). So it will be very, very hard to negotiate anything like what we lost. 31/47

Another way to picture it: a no deal Brexit is like rigging the load-bearing walls of a house with explosives, then detonating them on 29 March 2019 at 11pm. A transition period inserts temporary props to keep the house standing, but the walls themselves will still be gone. 32/4

The EU has proposed many templates for our future relationship. We rejected all of them. Our attitude is like marching into Thorntons and demanding they rip open all their selection boxes of chocolates so that we can pick our absolute favourites. 33/47










Unsurprisingly, that hasn't gone down very well with the EU side. They have given us lots of options. They've also made it very clear they won't split the EU's "4 freedoms". We ignored all that, and proposed an unworkable option (Chequers) and repeated it again and again. 34/

And still the Tories appear no closer to finding common ground on what kind of Brexit they want. Anyone would think they're almost happy to let the Article 50 conveyor belt do its stuff, and land us in the sharks. 35/47

So what are our options? Well, Brexit could still be stopped, right up to Brexit Day, by revoking Article 50. Theresa May can revoke Article 50 unilaterally. The EU cannot stop Brexit, only the UK can. 36/47

The only way that Parliament could stop Brexit without Theresa May cooperating would be to force a vote of no confidence that brought down the Government and precipitated a General Election. Ditto if Parliament wanted to prevent a "no deal" Brexit. 37/47

Of course, each of the treaties we're losing could be replaced with a new bespoke agreement. But they will need to be negotiated 1-by-1, with the EU or individual countries outside the EU. 38/47

We're talking about staggering amounts of work! So when someone says "We'll be fine with no deal" they're really saying "don't worry, we can sort out 750+ side arrangements with 27 EU countries, and dozens more around the world, all before 11pm on 29 March 2019." 39/47

Does that sound remotely credible? Can you see a Government, incapable of agreeing a single Brexit strategy after two years, somehow magically pulling off hundreds of successful side deals in under 6 months? That's why "no deal" is so bad. That's why people are panicking. 40/47

But remember, even if we get a deal, all those treaties still have to be replaced. A transition period buys a little time, nothing more. Uncertainty will continue. Businesses will stay spooked. Other functions of Government will still be completely sidetracked. 41/

The only real "Project Fear" is the fear that those who understand how Article 50 works feel as they watch the clock tick down towards a no deal on 29 March 2019 at 11pm. Properly terrifying stuff. And that's the truth. 42/47










P.S. Some people imagine that "no deal" means the status quo. We have a shared responsibility to correct them. No deal is as far from the status quo as it's possible to be. No deal = no withdrawal agreement = no transition period. Over the cliff edge we go on March 29 2019. 43/47

P.S. #2 I*nternational law doesn't care about feelings, belief, positivity, optimism or patriotism.* None of these things affect it in the slightest. It just IS*. Anyone saying "Brexit's failing because you don't believe in it enough" might as well be talking about fairies.) 44/4*

P.S. #3 The media says "Brexit may do this" or "Brexit might do that". Why the uncertainty? Because it depends on how many treaties get renegotiated, how soon, and under what terms. Nobody can predict that right now. But AS A WHOLE Brexit is guaranteed to be a mess. 45/47

P.S. #4 There's no such thing as "ex EU member status". Once we're out, we will be a 3rd country, just like every other non-EU country. Of course, we may strike deals on top of that baseline status, but we start off at the same low par as everyone else. ("Out means out"). 46/47

Thank you for reading this far. Sorry it was such a long read. Please spread the word if you feel it deserves a wider audience. NOTE: I will add some sources to further information below this tweet, if you want to dig deeper into the subjects covered in this thread. 47/4


----------



## noushka05

*Richard Corbett*‏Verified account @RCorbettMEP 11h11 hours ago
UK: we want to leave customs union

EU: that means border controls, incl Irish border

UK: we promise,no controls there

EU: so you'll put them between GB and NI?

DUP: no way

UK: we'll keep whole UK in CU

ERG:no way

UK: just temporarily, while we think of something else

Everyone:WTF?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Under pressure from the House of Commons more like who voted overwhelmingly in favour to trigger Article 50. They could have rejected the bill but they didn't.


2nd October 2016

*The UK will begin the formal Brexit negotiation process by the end of March 2017, PM Theresa May has said.*

The timing on triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty means the UK looks set to leave the EU by summer 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37532364​
January 2017

*European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017*

The Act's first reading as a bill in Parliament was on 26 January 2017​
The Bill was not to trigger Article 50 but to confer power on the Prime Minister to do so. It was her decision when to do so, under pressure from the right wing Tories who feared any delay.

I won't be seeing your posts again for a while.


----------



## Jonescat

Meanwhile, Astra Zeneca will continue not to invest here because of Brexit uncertainty....
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...ent-freeze-if-no-brexit-clarity-idUKKCN1MP1Q9


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I won't be seeing your posts again for a while.


That's ok. Your choice.

I did read your one and still believe that Parliament had a choice and chose to vote in favour of triggering article 50, they could have said no by rejecting the bill to trigger article 50 but they didn't and the Queen signed it off to make it law.


----------



## Magyarmum

Germany is beginning to get twitchy about the impact a hard Brexit will have on their industry.

Hopefully Merkel will have a quiet word with Barnier et al and tell them to pull finger and reach an agreement!

https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-could-trigger-massive-crisis-warns-german-industry/a-45813016

https://www.dw.com/en/brexits-impact-on-the-german-economy/av-42951127


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Germany is beginning to get twitchy about the impact a hard Brexit will have on their industry.
> 
> Hopefully Merkel will have a quiet word with Barnier et al and tell them to pull finger and reach an agreement!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-could-trigger-massive-crisis-warns-german-industry/a-45813016
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/brexits-impact-on-the-german-economy/av-42951127


I dare not reply with what I was going to put as I feel I will just be lectured by certain people like normal (not you) so I am affraid I will :Muted (keep quiet).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Now I have seen it all. This remainer decided to make money from all the scaremongering about stocking up.

https://www.brexitsurvivalpacks.com

The stuff he is selling you can buy cheaper individually.


----------



## havoc

I thought you approved of Brexit being an opportunity for British business


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Now I have seen it all. This remainer decided to make money from all the scaremongering about stocking up.
> 
> https://www.brexitsurvivalpacks.com
> 
> The stuff he is selling you can buy cheaper individually.


You might off Cat Brexit survival pack. With emergency supplies of Dreamies, catnip, you know it is serious when your cat claws you got their treats plus can eat only one type of food.

Plus emergency medicine kit for canine and feline.

I am thinking about little distillery kit and good supplies of sugar...


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> I thought you approved of Brexit being an opportunity for British business


I do but not when people are being ripped off. As I said I can get all the stuff he includes in his ration packs cheaper than what he is selling it for and get emegency food for my cat and a 4 pack of guiness (I don't drink holsten pils otherwise would have chosen a 4 pack of them).


----------



## havoc

Hate to burst your bubble but most successful business is built on persuading people to buy stuff they don’t need for more money than they should pay.


----------



## Elles

Isn’t it meant to be a joke?

Max from Nether Wallop says he got bug out packs and a place to hide in the woods lol.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Germany is beginning to get twitchy about the impact a hard Brexit will have on their industry.
> 
> Hopefully Merkel will have a quiet word with Barnier et al and tell them to pull finger and reach an agreement!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-could-trigger-massive-crisis-warns-german-industry/a-45813016
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/brexits-impact-on-the-german-economy/av-42951127


All industry should be getting twitchy. A hard Brexit, let alone No Deal is gad for business, bad for the UK and bad for every other country in Europe.

I'm less pessimistic than many of the commentators I'm reading, though. The main sticking point seems to be how to avoid a hard border in Ireland. A No Deal doesn't make that problem go away, because it immediately results in a hard border in Ireland.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but most successful business is built on persuading people to buy stuff they don't need for more money than they should pay.


No business would survive very long selling for example, Kellogg's cornflakes or Birds custard powder at inflated prices. You've only got to look at the competition between supermarkets to realise that!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May has a frantic 48 hours ahead of her to try and meet the October deadline starting this morning with a meeting with cabinet.

Some EU leaders have suggested extending the deadline to December 2018.


----------



## Magyarmum

From the BBC News 2 hours ago

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45872239


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May said austerity would end if the UK got a deal from the EU.










https://news.sky.com/story/chancell...d-at-least-19bn-to-end-austerity-ifs-11526887


----------



## noushka05

For people who actually care about the impact Brexit could have on others if we carry on with this reckless act of self harm.

*Seamas It Ever Was*‏Verified account @shockproofbeats 18h18 hours ago

The day after the vote, I wrote this about the Irish border. These issues were known THEN, and not one of them were addressed in the 28 months since.4
*
Brexit is not just a crime of ignorance and neglect, but one of malice* >>>>>

1. My thoughts as a Northern Irish person on how NO LEAVERS REALISED that Brexit will likely precipitate utter carnage in NI and, thusly, UK
*
9:32 AM - 27 Jun 2016*

2. I'm angry that the NI point is never, ever discussed. Despite the fact we are (a) the only people who have a land border w EU

3. (b) simultaneously the only part of UK for which a border would prove uniquely, and dramatically problematic...

4. (c) since we overwhelmingly voted for Remain because of the previous two reasons. So there's that. But it gets worse. It gets much worse

5. The fact is that either they put a militarised border between North and South or all their talk of Fortress Britain is nonsense.

6. A fully open border EXISTS between the UK and the EU; one such example is my dad's back fence; a 15 second walk from ROI and thus the EU

7. You're French. You travel freely via EU to Dublin. Get bus to Lifford (3 hrs). Walk for 90 seconds to Strabane. Ta-da! You are now in UK

8. No border checks, no machine guns, no "papers please". Just open. This is no longer acceptable to the mandate we have just been handed.

9. A border is bad for practical reasons; people like my sister live in Donegal and work in Derry, and thousands more vice versa...

10. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT are the psychological effects. Lot of Good Friday Agreement predicated on free movement between north and south.

11. This and cross-border bodies were just enough to comfort nationalists but not close enough to a united Ireland to antagonise unionists.

12. Actually, an awful lot of the framework of the GFA was underpinned by existing EU laws anyway, so it may now be entirely undone

13. But more importantly, making people undergo any form of border checkpoint between the two countries will not just be an arse ache..

14... will massively inhibit the sense of security half of NI population takes from it and ROI being part of a wider European state. HUGE.

15. I want to stress that this not a new concept for us. I'm 30, so I remember checkpoints as a kid. I remember machine guns and dogs.

16. My dad making sure we weren't nervous while he was being asked patronising questions by the armed men inspecting his driving license...

17. ..and checking under our car for explosives. This used to be EVERY ****ING DAY.

18. This won't be some new, weird thing - this will be a direct, unbidden return to something we worked very, very hard to get away from.

19. Something that we were promised was over. That we finally thought we HAD gotten away from

20. A notion of peace that thousands of very stubborn and dangerous people finally struck a peace for. Put down arms and moved on from

21. A long process of peace, to which we must presume thousands of people now alive in NI and mainland UK, **literally owe their lives*

22. And now we see violence could sleepwalk back in as a SIDE EFFECT of Brexit. One that no one ever mentioned in any debate I watched.

23.The Troubles, back as A SIDE EFFECT of a tussle for the leadership of the Conservatives, a party NI citizens don't even ****ing vote for

24. REMEMBER: Irish-Identifying NI citizens (I don't like saying 'Catholics') risk now being physically cut off from Eire. That is DRAMATIC

25. Vast majority are not hardened, violent. Same was true in 60s-80s. It takes an angry minority, w a "legitimate" grievance to recruit

26. The recklessness of not appreciating this powder keg AS EVEN A ****ING TALKING POINT IN THE DEBATES disgusts me

27. I identify as Irish (and have Irish passport) but am happy for NI to remain part of UK if majority say so; and we have peace, stability

28. Same is true of LARGE percentage of Irish-Identifying NI people. But free travel to Eire is part of that peace, part of that stability.

29. As is the HUGE amount of cash the EU gave us in peace dividends. (€3.5bn from EU in last round of budgeting).

30. But at least English people (and Welsh too - wtf lads???) can strike a blow against bendy bananas.

[SLOW HAND CLAP, SOBBING]

END.


----------



## noushka05

*Ross Colquhoun*‏Verified account @rosscolquhoun 18h18 hours ago
Ross Colquhoun Retweeted Robert Peston
*
Only this Tory UK government could outwit... itself*. >>>>>>>>>>>

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston
As you know, Downing Street source told me reason for Brexit talks breakdown was ⁦@Theresa_may⁩ could not accept the proposed "backstop to the backstop". But impeccable source tells me "backstop to the backstop" was a UK idea. Farce or tragedy?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> From the BBC News 2 hours ago
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45872239


Can't argue with any of that. We often seem to forget that it is the UK who chose to cancel our membership, and then we blame the EU for saying that means we lose the benefits of membership.


----------



## noushka05

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford 15h15 hours ago

*BREAKING*. Truly disastrous news for UK pharmaceuticals. AstraZeneca - who supports tens of thousands of British jobs - has halted investment in UK because of Brexit. 
This is a tragedy for a once world-leading UK industry

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...alts-uk-investments-due-brexit-uncertainties/

.............................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> For people who actually care about the impact Brexit could have on others if we carry on with this reckless act of self harm.
> 
> *Seamas It Ever Was*‏Verified account @shockproofbeats 18h18 hours ago
> 
> The day after the vote, I wrote this about the Irish border. These issues were known THEN, and not one of them were addressed in the 28 months since.4
> *
> Brexit is not just a crime of ignorance and neglect, but one of malice* >>>>>
> 
> 1. My thoughts as a Northern Irish person on how NO LEAVERS REALISED that Brexit will likely precipitate utter carnage in NI and, thusly, UK
> *
> 9:32 AM - 27 Jun 2016*
> 
> 2. I'm angry that the NI point is never, ever discussed. Despite the fact we are (a) the only people who have a land border w EU
> 
> 3. (b) simultaneously the only part of UK for which a border would prove uniquely, and dramatically problematic...
> 
> 4. (c) since we overwhelmingly voted for Remain because of the previous two reasons. So there's that. But it gets worse. It gets much worse
> 
> 5. The fact is that either they put a militarised border between North and South or all their talk of Fortress Britain is nonsense.
> 
> 6. A fully open border EXISTS between the UK and the EU; one such example is my dad's back fence; a 15 second walk from ROI and thus the EU
> 
> 7. You're French. You travel freely via EU to Dublin. Get bus to Lifford (3 hrs). Walk for 90 seconds to Strabane. Ta-da! You are now in UK
> 
> 8. No border checks, no machine guns, no "papers please". Just open. This is no longer acceptable to the mandate we have just been handed.
> 
> 9. A border is bad for practical reasons; people like my sister live in Donegal and work in Derry, and thousands more vice versa...
> 
> 10. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT are the psychological effects. Lot of Good Friday Agreement predicated on free movement between north and south.
> 
> 11. This and cross-border bodies were just enough to comfort nationalists but not close enough to a united Ireland to antagonise unionists.
> 
> 12. Actually, an awful lot of the framework of the GFA was underpinned by existing EU laws anyway, so it may now be entirely undone
> 
> 13. But more importantly, making people undergo any form of border checkpoint between the two countries will not just be an arse ache..
> 
> 14... will massively inhibit the sense of security half of NI population takes from it and ROI being part of a wider European state. HUGE.
> 
> 15. I want to stress that this not a new concept for us. I'm 30, so I remember checkpoints as a kid. I remember machine guns and dogs.
> 
> 16. My dad making sure we weren't nervous while he was being asked patronising questions by the armed men inspecting his driving license...
> 
> 17. ..and checking under our car for explosives. This used to be EVERY ******* DAY.
> 
> 18. This won't be some new, weird thing - this will be a direct, unbidden return to something we worked very, very hard to get away from.
> 
> 19. Something that we were promised was over. That we finally thought we HAD gotten away from
> 
> 20. A notion of peace that thousands of very stubborn and dangerous people finally struck a peace for. Put down arms and moved on from
> 
> 21. A long process of peace, to which we must presume thousands of people now alive in NI and mainland UK, **literally owe their lives*
> 
> 22. And now we see violence could sleepwalk back in as a SIDE EFFECT of Brexit. One that no one ever mentioned in any debate I watched.
> 
> 23.The Troubles, back as A SIDE EFFECT of a tussle for the leadership of the Conservatives, a party NI citizens don't even ******* vote for
> 
> 24. REMEMBER: Irish-Identifying NI citizens (I don't like saying 'Catholics') risk now being physically cut off from Eire. That is DRAMATIC
> 
> 25. Vast majority are not hardened, violent. Same was true in 60s-80s. It takes an angry minority, w a "legitimate" grievance to recruit
> 
> 26. The recklessness of not appreciating this powder keg AS EVEN A ******* TALKING POINT IN THE DEBATES disgusts me
> 
> 27. I identify as Irish (and have Irish passport) but am happy for NI to remain part of UK if majority say so; and we have peace, stability
> 
> 28. Same is true of LARGE percentage of Irish-Identifying NI people. But free travel to Eire is part of that peace, part of that stability.
> 
> 29. As is the HUGE amount of cash the EU gave us in peace dividends. (€3.5bn from EU in last round of budgeting).
> 
> 30. But at least English people (and Welsh too - wtf lads???) can strike a blow against bendy bananas.
> 
> [SLOW HAND CLAP, SOBBING]
> 
> END.


"I'm angry that the NI point is never, ever discussed"

It was consistently raised by the two ex-PMs most closely involved with the GFA; Blair and Major. The first was dismissed with the idiot argument that "he 'lied' about Iraq so therefore he lies about everything", and the second because he was a grey man who tucked his shirt into his underpants. It was an albeit pathetic example of the sort of ad hominem attack that greeted any problem with Brexit that couldn't be argued on the actual substance of the problem.

Inconvenient facts were never allowed to derail the glorious ideological journey to the fantasy sunlit uplands.


----------



## noushka05

*Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 11h11 hours ago

#BrexitReality. Ford boss warns on 'disastrous' no-deal Brexit - BBC News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45860777


----------



## Arnie83

So when May gets to dinner on Wednesday and insists that any Irish border backstop solution must end on 31st December 2020 whether we have come up with a workable solution or not, and one of the other leaders says "What then happens if we haven't?", what does she say?

Or does she just run out of the room, sobbing, because they're so horrid?


----------



## Arnie83

*" Ministers hold crunch 'PIZZA SUMMIT' "*

So they can't even cook a pizza properly!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> "I'm angry that the NI point is never, ever discussed"
> 
> It was consistently raised by the two ex-PMs most closely involved with the GFA; Blair and Major. The first was dismissed with the idiot argument that "he 'lied' about Iraq so therefore he lies about everything", and the second because he was a grey man who tucked his shirt into his underpants. It was an albeit pathetic example of the sort of ad hominem attack that greeted any problem with Brexit that couldn't be argued on the actual substance of the problem.
> 
> Inconvenient facts were never allowed to derail the glorious ideological journey to the fantasy sunlit uplands.


Quite. Reality will only hit home to brextremists when its too late. Anyone looking objectively could see we were hurtling towards disaster. Its been fascinating & equally horrifying to witness how powerful nationalism & jingoism are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If we come up with a workable solution by 31st December 2020 the back stop won't come into play. If we don't come up with a solution then the back stop temporarily comes into play.

The Pizza came from a pizzaria in Pimlico (Andrea Leadsom's office ordered it the other day - it was in the newspapers). The ERG had it last nighy in their meeting.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> So when May gets to dinner on Wednesday and insists that any Irish border backstop solution must end on 31st December 2020 whether we have come up with a workable solution or not, and one of the other leaders says "What then happens if we haven't?", what does she say?
> 
> Or does she just run out of the room, sobbing, because they're so horrid?


Lord knows May and her government are an absolute joke! And they're dragging this country into the gutter with them. The best of this country is being eroded away.

For decades hard brexiters have been squealing to leave the EU - without any no plan to get us out without trashing the UK. Two years and this [email protected] government cant even decide amongst themselves never mind the EU. What a complete and utter shambles. At least we've played no part Arnie x


----------



## noushka05

*MP demands Met police explain why Brexit inquiry dropped*

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...eave-campaigners-data-misuse?CMP=share_btn_tw

The MP said it was "absurd" that the UK had not reacted to claims of Russian interference in the referendum by replicating the investigation of US special counsel Robert Mueller, who is heading an inquiry into alleged Russian meddling in the 2016 US presidential election. "In America, where there are deep political divisions in Congress, they still agree on the importance of this and the need for a special prosecutor. We need the same," said Collins.

He also warned Mark Zuckerberg that the Facebook chief's refusal to assist the parliamentary inquiry into the misuse of data should result in the UK's security services being allowed to investigate Facebook.

"We haven't even scraped the surface of what happened on Facebook. We are totally reliant on Facebook's internal investigations. It's not enough. The government needs to order the security services to go in and work with Facebook," said Collins.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Femi nails it!

*48% voted against Brexit all together.

52% of voters said they wanted more control in 2016.

May's Brexit deal leaves us with less control.

I'm not saying 100% would rejected May's Brexit Deal in a #PeoplesVote, but... I'd guess it would be a hell of a lot more than 52%.*


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> No business would survive very long selling for example, Kellogg's cornflakes or Birds custard powder at inflated prices.


But they do by repackaging and rebranding those contents and selling them as something special. It's called 'added value'. It's true you can't fool all the people all the time but there are plenty want to be fooled.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Femi nails it!
> 
> *48% voted against Brexit all together.
> 
> 52% of voters said they wanted more control in 2016.
> 
> May's Brexit deal leaves us with less control.
> 
> I'm not saying 100% would rejected May's Brexit Deal in a #PeoplesVote, but... I'd guess it would be a hell of a lot more than 52%.*


I wonder.

We should never underestimate the lack of informed knowledge among the electorate.


----------



## Magyarmum

October 15, 2018
*The Brussels elite have always wanted to punish the UK for leaving - Theresa May must not let them succeed*
















Written by
Dr Sheila Lawlor

Dr Sheila Lawlor is Director of Politeia where she directs the social and economic policy programme and is by background an academic historian. She has published many books and pamphlets, most recently _Deal, No Deal? The Battle for Britain's Democracy._

SHARE

  
Chequers is hated at home for proposing to keep Britain 'half-in' the EU. It was not loved in Brussels for much the same reason. For the EU, 'half-in' does not go far enough. The latest round of eleventh hour talks orchestrated before Wednesday's EU summit indicates they are determined to force the UK far further.

Despite comments from Donald Tusk suggesting a Canada-style deal is possible, the bloc believes it can do much better at Britain's expense: if she is to leave the EU with the benefits of seamless trade, they want Britain to remain in the Customs Union; it is not enough for it obediently to ape the EU's rules as Chequers would oblige.

That position makes sense in the EU's terms. The EU has been nothing if not consistent. It has from the start taken the view that any deal offered to the UK must be a bad one, designed to discourage others following where Britain has led. Indeed, EU strategy since June 2016 has been to turn the defeat (for them) of the referendum vote into victory by boxing Britain in to the talks timetable, insisting on the UK divorce payment and EU citizens' rights.

That means that, for the EU, the UK must not be allowed to rival the bloc as a free market competitor, enjoying free trade with third countries or being free to buy and sell non-EU compliant goods. It must conform to the bloc's blueprint. There must be no competition from the UK's free market economy, the antithesis of French _dirigisme_, on which the EU's control and command model is cloned.

Despised by the EU as a 'gig' economy, the UK's economy is - by EU (and French) standards - light on social protection, tax and regulation; big on entrepreneurship, risk and free markets; and, worst of all, successful. Such an economy must not be left unfettered to compete. The playing field must be level there can be no cherry-picking and Single Market rules and obligations must be obeyed in return for any benefits.

Although Britain is the world's fifth largest economy, it must continue to buy EU goods at EU prices, rather than becoming a free trade haven for cheaper imports from third countries with the UK's 70 million people and economy held captive, unable to reap the true Brexit bonus. The UK's industries and business would be bound by hated and costly compliance with the EU rulebooks restricting entrepreneurship.

What, then, of Donald Tusk's indication that the EU would be willing to accept a Britain fully out, being willing to reach a Canada plus plus-type trade agreement - an outcome that would be in UK interests? It amounts to little, since the EU is counting on deploying the Irish border to make this choice impossible for the British Government and force it back onto Chequers minus minus - a Chequers that not only surrenders to the EU on goods law but ties the UK even more closely to the EU by agreeing to an indefinite, perhaps never-ending, period as a member of the Customs Union. Otherwise, the EU claims, there would not be a soft Irish border. The Green card is now being played for all it is worth, with a complicit Irish Taoiseach keen to prove his nationalist credentials against Sinn Fein at home and perhaps to line up a lucrative job for himself in Brussels if and when his shaky coalition falls.

Despite the EU's apparent intransigence, the Prime Minister should hold firm to the technological solution. It was proposed by the UK Government back in 2017, is already proven and recommended by many trade authorities (including an EU-commissioned study group on the Irish border) for today's borders, and is in line with contemporary trends on cross-border trade. She should acknowledge that the border is a pawn in the power struggle by the EU to keep the UK to a Chequers-style agreement but going far further to remain a member of the Customs Union.

To anyone reflecting on the many thousands of miles of borders between the EU and 19 third countries, the fact that the Irish border has prompted so much political frenzy may seem bizarre: other EU borders are with a variety of third countries, including a motley of states - dictatorships and lands racked by armed struggles, or used as transit points for mass immigration, or for smuggling and the slave trade. By contrast, the Irish border divides two peaceful, democratic neighbours, sharing a common law tradition and the closest ties of culture, history and economy, living in harmony and mutual self-interest and with the Belfast Agreement a matter of practical cooperation - an agreement it should be noted to which the EU was _not_ a signatory.

There is no reason for Britain's Prime Minister to back the EU version of a 'soft border' by entering a Customs Union for all the UK. If there was any truth in the German press reports at the weekend that the Government had been panicked into a secret deal with the EU, which it was set to sign before even announcing it in the UK, this high-handed action resonates not with the UK's democratic tradition of freedom, but the EU's attempt to deny it.

Mrs May should heed not the EU but her own people: voters who voted Leave, MPs who back the authority of the democratic mandate, her own government in rebellion over an enforced customs union, and the informed authorities on both sides of the Irish Sea that back technology, not the backstop as the best basis for a soft border. She should recognise that the EU is from its perspective doing what it does best - protecting the interest of its elites and its project of ever closer union, not its people. Her task is not to make the EU's easier, but to honour the democratic mandate from which her authority to govern comes.


----------



## Elles

How did Andorra manage to come to an agreement?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> To anyone reflecting on the many thousands of miles of borders between the EU and 19 third countries, the fact that the Irish border has prompted so much political frenzy may seem bizarre: other EU borders are with a variety of third countries, including a motley of states - dictatorships and lands racked by armed struggles, or used as transit points for mass immigration, or for smuggling and the slave trade. By contrast, the Irish border divides two peaceful, democratic neighbours, sharing a common law tradition and the closest ties of culture, history and economy, living in harmony and mutual self-interest and with the Belfast Agreement a matter of practical cooperation - an agreement it should be noted to which the EU was _not_ a signatory.


She really doesn't give a to$$ does she? She heads a right wing free market think tank so cant say I'm surprised

Patrick Kielty in response to Johnsons reckless ignorance on the subject. https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/patrick-kielty-schools-boris-johnson-13328777

Patricks father was killed in the troubles!










1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don't see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

"4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic -

"5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

"Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

"The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

"*6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War*.

"7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

"8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

"9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

"10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

"11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora's box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

"12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance

"13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

"14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

"15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

*"16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresig*ht. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

"17. By the time the penny drops that you can't preserve the Union you want without the one you don't, it will be too late.

"18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there's any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you'll be in Nice with your trotters up)


"20. Meantime, if you're so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where's your support for our same sex marriage and women's right to choose? Your silence is deafening."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> October 15, 2018
> *The Brussels elite have always wanted to punish the UK for leaving - Theresa May must not let them succeed*
> 
> Written by
> Dr Sheila Lawlor
> 
> Dr Sheila Lawlor is Director of Politeia where she directs the social and economic policy programme and is by background an academic historian. She has published many books and pamphlets, most recently _Deal, No Deal? The Battle for Britain's Democracy._
> 
> Chequers is hated at home for proposing to keep Britain 'half-in' the EU. It was not loved in Brussels for much the same reason. For the EU, 'half-in' does not go far enough. The latest round of eleventh hour talks orchestrated before Wednesday's EU summit indicates they are determined to force the UK far further.
> 
> Despite comments from Donald Tusk suggesting a Canada-style deal is possible, the bloc believes it can do much better at Britain's expense: if she is to leave the EU with the benefits of seamless trade, they want Britain to remain in the Customs Union; it is not enough for it obediently to ape the EU's rules as Chequers would oblige.
> 
> That position makes sense in the EU's terms. The EU has been nothing if not consistent. It has from the start taken the view that any deal offered to the UK must be a bad one, designed to discourage others following where Britain has led. Indeed, EU strategy since June 2016 has been to turn the defeat (for them) of the referendum vote into victory by boxing Britain in to the talks timetable, insisting on the UK divorce payment and EU citizens' rights.
> 
> That means that, for the EU, the UK must not be allowed to rival the bloc as a free market competitor, enjoying free trade with third countries or being free to buy and sell non-EU compliant goods. It must conform to the bloc's blueprint. There must be no competition from the UK's free market economy, the antithesis of French _dirigisme_, on which the EU's control and command model is cloned.
> 
> Despised by the EU as a 'gig' economy, the UK's economy is - by EU (and French) standards - light on social protection, tax and regulation; big on entrepreneurship, risk and free markets; and, worst of all, successful. Such an economy must not be left unfettered to compete. The playing field must be level there can be no cherry-picking and Single Market rules and obligations must be obeyed in return for any benefits.
> 
> Although Britain is the world's fifth largest economy, it must continue to buy EU goods at EU prices, rather than becoming a free trade haven for cheaper imports from third countries with the UK's 70 million people and economy held captive, unable to reap the true Brexit bonus. The UK's industries and business would be bound by hated and costly compliance with the EU rulebooks restricting entrepreneurship.
> 
> What, then, of Donald Tusk's indication that the EU would be willing to accept a Britain fully out, being willing to reach a Canada plus plus-type trade agreement - an outcome that would be in UK interests? It amounts to little, since the EU is counting on deploying the Irish border to make this choice impossible for the British Government and force it back onto Chequers minus minus - a Chequers that not only surrenders to the EU on goods law but ties the UK even more closely to the EU by agreeing to an indefinite, perhaps never-ending, period as a member of the Customs Union. Otherwise, the EU claims, there would not be a soft Irish border. The Green card is now being played for all it is worth, with a complicit Irish Taoiseach keen to prove his nationalist credentials against Sinn Fein at home and perhaps to line up a lucrative job for himself in Brussels if and when his shaky coalition falls.
> 
> Despite the EU's apparent intransigence, the Prime Minister should hold firm to the technological solution. It was proposed by the UK Government back in 2017, is already proven and recommended by many trade authorities (including an EU-commissioned study group on the Irish border) for today's borders, and is in line with contemporary trends on cross-border trade. She should acknowledge that the border is a pawn in the power struggle by the EU to keep the UK to a Chequers-style agreement but going far further to remain a member of the Customs Union.
> 
> To anyone reflecting on the many thousands of miles of borders between the EU and 19 third countries, the fact that the Irish border has prompted so much political frenzy may seem bizarre: other EU borders are with a variety of third countries, including a motley of states - dictatorships and lands racked by armed struggles, or used as transit points for mass immigration, or for smuggling and the slave trade. By contrast, the Irish border divides two peaceful, democratic neighbours, sharing a common law tradition and the closest ties of culture, history and economy, living in harmony and mutual self-interest and with the Belfast Agreement a matter of practical cooperation - an agreement it should be noted to which the EU was _not_ a signatory.
> 
> There is no reason for Britain's Prime Minister to back the EU version of a 'soft border' by entering a Customs Union for all the UK. If there was any truth in the German press reports at the weekend that the Government had been panicked into a secret deal with the EU, which it was set to sign before even announcing it in the UK, this high-handed action resonates not with the UK's democratic tradition of freedom, but the EU's attempt to deny it.
> 
> Mrs May should heed not the EU but her own people: voters who voted Leave, MPs who back the authority of the democratic mandate, her own government in rebellion over an enforced customs union, and the informed authorities on both sides of the Irish Sea that back technology, not the backstop as the best basis for a soft border. She should recognise that the EU is from its perspective doing what it does best - protecting the interest of its elites and its project of ever closer union, not its people. Her task is not to make the EU's easier, but to honour the democratic mandate from which her authority to govern comes.


That is about as far from a balanced view as I've seen. Just two comments out of many I could make:

I particularly never like comments such as "a complicit Irish Taoiseach keen ... perhaps to line up a lucrative job for himself in Brussels if and when his shaky coalition falls". Making baseless attacks on the integrity of people you disagree with never strikes me as intellectually impressive.

And comparing the Irish border with the EU's other external borders without noting the rather glaring differences between the relevant political situations is at best meaningless and, more likely, deliberately obfuscatory.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> But they do by repackaging and rebranding those contents and selling them as something special. It's called 'added value'. It's true you can't fool all the people all the time but there are plenty want to be fooled.


You can't just open a packet of say, cornflakes then repackage them and claim for example they're made from bio corn, so you can charge more for them.

Well, you can but you'd be contravening the Trading Standards Act and could be prosecuted as a result

https://www.gov.uk/product-labelling-the-law

https://www.businesscompanion.info/...ink#strongFoodsafetyqualityamplabellingstrong


----------



## noushka05

This is why environmentalists, conservationists, green NGOs and green politicians were urging us to remain. Our children and grandchildren will pay the highest price for this pathetic nationalism. God help em.

*Anjana Ahuja*‏ @anjahuja Oct 10
Why the deafening international silence at the #IPCC report? Maybe because the retreat to nationalism leaves little political bandwidth for problems that are truly global.

My @FT column on how #climate denial has given way to indifference. https://www.ft.com/content/e27a3b38-cc7d-11e8-8d0b-a6539b949662

*Climate catastrophe warnings were greeted with global silence *
Shortsighted folly of ignoring the IPCC will lead to drastic future policies


----------



## Elles

People are planting trees and cleaning the oceans. Developing clean meat and clean fuel. We have environmentally friendly technologies being researched and developed. Brexit is barely relevant, the U.K. isn’t that important and it’s tiny. The U.K. leaving the Eu is hardly going to bring about a world catastrophe and climate Armageddon. It seems some of the political tweeters think Britain is even more important than they claim leavers want it to be. If Britain and Theresa May are nothing but a laughing stock to the rest of the World, why would our politics make any difference.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> This is why environmentalists, conservationists, green NGOs and green politicians were urging us to remain. Our children and grandchildren will pay the highest price for this pathetic nationalism. God help em.
> 
> *Anjana Ahuja*‏ @anjahuja Oct 10
> Why the deafening international silence at the #IPCC report? Maybe because the retreat to nationalism leaves little political bandwidth for problems that are truly global.
> 
> My @FT column on how #climate denial has given way to indifference. https://www.ft.com/content/e27a3b38-cc7d-11e8-8d0b-a6539b949662
> 
> *Climate catastrophe warnings were greeted with global silence *
> Shortsighted folly of ignoring the IPCC will lead to drastic future policies


https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate-guide/science/uk/ipcc

https://www.carbonbrief.org/in-depth-how-the-uk-plans-to-adapt-to-climate-change

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/artic...-review-its-emission-plan-after-ipcc-climate-
change-warning

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...ction-summit-moscone-centre-14-september-2018

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/1...nt-seeks-advice-on-net-zero-emissions-target/


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> October 15, 2018
> *The Brussels elite have always wanted to punish the UK for leaving - Theresa May must not let them succeed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Written by
> Dr Sheila Lawlor
> 
> Dr Sheila Lawlor is Director of Politeia where she directs the social and economic policy programme and is by background an academic historian. She has published many books and pamphlets, most recently _Deal, No Deal? The Battle for Britain's Democracy._
> 
> SHARE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chequers is hated at home for proposing to keep Britain 'half-in' the EU. It was not loved in Brussels for much the same reason. For the EU, 'half-in' does not go far enough. The latest round of eleventh hour talks orchestrated before Wednesday's EU summit indicates they are determined to force the UK far further.
> 
> Despite comments from Donald Tusk suggesting a Canada-style deal is possible, the bloc believes it can do much better at Britain's expense: if she is to leave the EU with the benefits of seamless trade, they want Britain to remain in the Customs Union; it is not enough for it obediently to ape the EU's rules as Chequers would oblige.
> 
> That position makes sense in the EU's terms. The EU has been nothing if not consistent. It has from the start taken the view that any deal offered to the UK must be a bad one, designed to discourage others following where Britain has led. Indeed, EU strategy since June 2016 has been to turn the defeat (for them) of the referendum vote into victory by boxing Britain in to the talks timetable, insisting on the UK divorce payment and EU citizens' rights.
> 
> That means that, for the EU, the UK must not be allowed to rival the bloc as a free market competitor, enjoying free trade with third countries or being free to buy and sell non-EU compliant goods. It must conform to the bloc's blueprint. There must be no competition from the UK's free market economy, the antithesis of French _dirigisme_, on which the EU's control and command model is cloned.
> 
> Despised by the EU as a 'gig' economy, the UK's economy is - by EU (and French) standards - light on social protection, tax and regulation; big on entrepreneurship, risk and free markets; and, worst of all, successful. Such an economy must not be left unfettered to compete. The playing field must be level there can be no cherry-picking and Single Market rules and obligations must be obeyed in return for any benefits.
> 
> Although Britain is the world's fifth largest economy, it must continue to buy EU goods at EU prices, rather than becoming a free trade haven for cheaper imports from third countries with the UK's 70 million people and economy held captive, unable to reap the true Brexit bonus. The UK's industries and business would be bound by hated and costly compliance with the EU rulebooks restricting entrepreneurship.
> 
> What, then, of Donald Tusk's indication that the EU would be willing to accept a Britain fully out, being willing to reach a Canada plus plus-type trade agreement - an outcome that would be in UK interests? It amounts to little, since the EU is counting on deploying the Irish border to make this choice impossible for the British Government and force it back onto Chequers minus minus - a Chequers that not only surrenders to the EU on goods law but ties the UK even more closely to the EU by agreeing to an indefinite, perhaps never-ending, period as a member of the Customs Union. Otherwise, the EU claims, there would not be a soft Irish border. The Green card is now being played for all it is worth, with a complicit Irish Taoiseach keen to prove his nationalist credentials against Sinn Fein at home and perhaps to line up a lucrative job for himself in Brussels if and when his shaky coalition falls.
> 
> Despite the EU's apparent intransigence, the Prime Minister should hold firm to the technological solution. It was proposed by the UK Government back in 2017, is already proven and recommended by many trade authorities (including an EU-commissioned study group on the Irish border) for today's borders, and is in line with contemporary trends on cross-border trade. She should acknowledge that the border is a pawn in the power struggle by the EU to keep the UK to a Chequers-style agreement but going far further to remain a member of the Customs Union.
> 
> To anyone reflecting on the many thousands of miles of borders between the EU and 19 third countries, the fact that the Irish border has prompted so much political frenzy may seem bizarre: other EU borders are with a variety of third countries, including a motley of states - dictatorships and lands racked by armed struggles, or used as transit points for mass immigration, or for smuggling and the slave trade. By contrast, the Irish border divides two peaceful, democratic neighbours, sharing a common law tradition and the closest ties of culture, history and economy, living in harmony and mutual self-interest and with the Belfast Agreement a matter of practical cooperation - an agreement it should be noted to which the EU was _not_ a signatory.
> 
> There is no reason for Britain's Prime Minister to back the EU version of a 'soft border' by entering a Customs Union for all the UK. If there was any truth in the German press reports at the weekend that the Government had been panicked into a secret deal with the EU, which it was set to sign before even announcing it in the UK, this high-handed action resonates not with the UK's democratic tradition of freedom, but the EU's attempt to deny it.
> 
> Mrs May should heed not the EU but her own people: voters who voted Leave, MPs who back the authority of the democratic mandate, her own government in rebellion over an enforced customs union, and the informed authorities on both sides of the Irish Sea that back technology, not the backstop as the best basis for a soft border. She should recognise that the EU is from its perspective doing what it does best - protecting the interest of its elites and its project of ever closer union, not its people. Her task is not to make the EU's easier, but to honour the democratic mandate from which her authority to govern comes.


Well, if people choose to believe by not giving a fascist free reign to dictate to how the EU do their business while volunteering to leave the block, "Bullying" then let them.

Funny really to think many who complain about being bullied are often bullies themselves.

They twist it to look as if they're the ones that are being bullied when someone stands up to them.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> You can't just open a packet of say, cornflakes then repackage them and claim for example they're made from bio corn, so you can charge more for them.
> 
> Well, you can but you'd be contravening the Trading Standards Act and could be prosecuted as a result


I can use the self same manufacturer, have them packaged differently and put all sorts of labels on them such as 'low fat' low sugar' etc. I can also imply anything to do with an up market lifestyle on that packaging and in the advertising. That's added value.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> How did Andorra manage to come to an agreement?


Bowing to Spain and France and getting kind of joined sovereignty ?
As you know Gibraltar always feared this kind of deal and Caruana was accused he wanted to send us that route, impossible as Andorra is between those two, and we have Spain on our doorstep and Britain in Lala land.
How is that relevant to Brexit?
Andorra is just a tiny bit of a thing and France and Spain are happy to use it for what can't be done at home.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> People are planting trees and cleaning the oceans. Developing clean meat and clean fuel. We have environmentally friendly technologies being researched and developed. Brexit is barely relevant, the U.K. isn't that important and it's tiny. The U.K. leaving the Eu is hardly going to bring about a world catastrophe and climate Armageddon. It seems some of the political tweeters think Britain is even more important than they claim leavers want it to be. If Britain and Theresa May are nothing but a laughing stock to the rest of the World, why would our politics make any difference.


That is the problem, we had more influence when we had more gravitas.
Who will take us seriously now?


----------



## Arnie83

From The Times re the latest breakdown in negotiations. The UK team were about to agree a way forwards, and Raab rushed over to stop them.

The political crisis on display over the weekend, however, was not a breakdown of relations between the EU and the UK, but instead seemed to be the British government fighting itself.

In truth Mr Raab flew into Brussels to stop a plan by EU negotiators slipping into a "technical agreement" with the assent of the British negotiating team, and hence the final deal. He and his fellow cabinet colleagues felt it conceded too much ground to the EU, would be politically unsellable in the Commons and imperilled the union. Put another way, Mr Raab hit the stop button because different bits of the British government still cannot agree over what to do next.​


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> I can use the self same manufacturer, have them packaged differently and put all sorts of labels on them such as 'low fat' low sugar' etc. I can also imply anything to do with an up market lifestyle on that packaging and in the advertising. That's added value.


Exactly. A lot of supermarket own brands are exactly the same product as Big Brand products - made in the same factory vai the exact same process, just different packaging. It's why one of the exception brands to this, Kellogs, used to run an advertising campaign saying if it wasn't Kellogs on the box, it wasn't Kellogs IN the box.

Or how about first class travel? Same departure point, same destination, same distance travelled in the same vehicle - and all you really get is a bit more room, drinks on tap and slightly posher food and facilites.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> If he told her to go jump in a lake .............................................................
> I don't think 'he told me to do it' is going to work here. The opposition call for a lot of things.


Very true. I blame Theresa May and the Tories 100%. It's their mess.

However, the so called opposition did nothing to prevent this. Corbyn even whipped his MPs into voting with the government.

The government would probably have won without his help anyway seeing they had a parliamentary majority at the time!

We had a leaflet from our local Labour Party before the local elections. It was full of the, "Labour respects the referendum result" crap.

Cost them my vote that did.


----------



## Arnie83

Excellent (imo) piece by John Major in the Grauniad. Including:

I understand the motives of those who voted to leave the European Union: it can - as I well know - be very frustrating. Nonetheless, after weighing its frustrations and opportunities, there is no doubt in my own mind that our decision is a colossal misjudgment that will diminish both the UK and the EU. It will damage our national and personal wealth, and may seriously hamper our future security. It may even, over time, break up our United Kingdom. It will most definitely limit the prospects of our young.

And - once this becomes clear - I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten - nor forgiven.​
I suppose the last bit is something of an attack, but he finishes the piece ...

Respect and civility would do much to help lift politics out of the dog days in which it is now living. More compromise - less confrontation.​
Rees-Mogg's response? This tweet ...

Pity Sir John Major who was so heavily rejected by voters in 1997 and has never recovered.​
So much easier than a reasoned refutation.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/false-promises-brexit-john-major


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Rees-Mogg's response? This tweet ...
> 
> Pity Sir John Major who was so heavily rejected by voters in 1997 and has never recovered.
> So much easier than a reasoned refutation


I think it speaks volumes -sadly. Once someone like Rees-Mogg is reduced to playing the man rather than the ball you'd have to be concerned. Don't like the man but I would have expected better.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Bowing to Spain and France and getting kind of joined sovereignty ?
> As you know Gibraltar always feared this kind of deal and Caruana was accused he wanted to send us that route, impossible as Andorra is between those two, and we have Spain on our doorstep and Britain in Lala land.
> How is that relevant to Brexit?
> Andorra is just a tiny bit of a thing and France and Spain are happy to use it for what can't be done at home.


That was kind of my point. Andorra has a special deal and it has France and Spain on its border. It's also a haven and no one can move there unless they have money and will employ local people. So the Eu and Europe are happy to mess about when it comes to Andorra when it suits them, but the rules are written in stone when it comes to Britain, Gibraltar and Ireland?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So the Eu and Europe are happy to mess about when it comes to Andorra when it suits them, but the rules are written in stone when it comes to Britain, Gibraltar and Ireland?


Spain and France are EU members, the UK won't be for much longer.

I fail to understand why people who back leaving the EU expect preferential treatment from them.

Surely if I was an RAC member I wouldn't expect the AA to come to my rescue in the event of a breakdown!

The major obstacle isn't the EU, it's not even Brexit.

Theresa May has rejected everything she doesn't personally agree with.

The EU proposal for NI seemed a very reasonable one, but she doesn't want to upset Arlene as an example.


----------



## Arnie83

May's position on Ireland boils down to:

We, the UK are leaving the EU
We, the UK are leaving the Customs Union
We, the UK are leaving the Single Market
We, the UK won't allow checking of goods between NI and the rest of the UK

International trade rules do not allow differences between the treatment of non-members wrt border checks

You, the EU must find a way to make that work without breaking any of our red lines


----------



## Arnie83

From the Telegraph:

*No-deal Brexit: why your investments could soar in value*

... a No Deal scenario is becoming increasingly likely.

But would leaving the EU without an exit agreement be such a bad thing for your investment portfolio?

Following Britain's shock decision to leave the EU in June 2016, the value of the British pound fell.

This proved to be beneficial for many investors with holdings in overseas companies, as these investments were now more valuable thanks to the drop in Sterling.

Experts believe the same thing could happen if Britain left the EU with no deal in place. Edward Park of Brooks Macdonald, a wealth adviser ... believes that if there was no deal ... the value of Sterling would fall by as much as 20pc, meaning stocks with global exposure would rally.​
So there you have it. Never mind that you're struggling to make ends meet and the prices will rise, economic growth will fall, and there will be less money for public services and welfare. At least your investment portfolio will benefit. Cash in the profits, and everything will be just fine.

I wonder how many members of the ERG have investment portfolios.


----------



## Arnie83

From Business Insider:

LONDON - Donald Trump's administration has said the UK must scrap "unjustified" food and agricultural standards before it can sign a free trade deal with the US after Brexit.

The US Trade Representative sent a to letter to US Congress on Tuesday, formally announcing President Trump's intention to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK once it has left the EU.

The letter states that any UK-EU trade deal must respect the US' Trade Priorities and Accountability Act, which requires the "reducing or eliminating [of] unjustified sanitary or phytosanitary restrictions" and "other unjustified technical barriers to trade."

BI highlighted last month that under US food regulation, producers are allowed certain amounts of foreign bodies like maggots, rat-hair and mould in a range of food products sold to consumers.​
So if you want a trade deal with the US, all you have to do is follow all their rules.

Or we could tell them to follow ours instead, because that nice Mr Trump is such a reasonable chap.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump...-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> That was kind of my point. Andorra has a special deal and it has France and Spain on its border. It's also a haven and no one can move there unless they have money and will employ local people. So the Eu and Europe are happy to mess about when it comes to Andorra when it suits them, but the rules are written in stone when it comes to Britain, Gibraltar and Ireland?


Because Spain and France are not leaving EU?
If Britain remains there will be no problem obviously. Spain will be told to shut up as they were so many times.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> BI highlighted last month that under US food regulation, producers are allowed certain amounts of foreign bodies like maggots, rat-hair and mould in a range of food products sold to consumers.


And poo. Don't forget poo!

Of course, I expect it would be an 'unjustified technical barrier to trade' to have publicity campaigns which point this out...


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> And poo. Don't forget poo!
> 
> Of course, I expect it would be an 'unjustified technical barrier to trade' to have publicity campaigns which point this out...


Given that trade deals, and especially one with the US, are the last remaining 'benefit' canard being peddled by the Tory Brexiteers, I sincerely hope it is loudly publicised.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> So if you want a trade deal with the US, all you have to do is follow all their rules


And this is a surprise - to whom? It was never a secret that we'd be required to allow contaminated food in from the states if we wanted that much lauded trade deal. Makes me laugh that the article even says this isn't what people voted for - yes it is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> And poo. Don't forget poo!
> 
> Of course, I expect it would be an 'unjustified technical barrier to trade' to have publicity campaigns which point this out...


OH, but it is genuine American poo!!!
Not just some subsidised EU rubbish and we will make a great new deal and Americans will send it to us with hardly any tax and there will be no shortage of poo , so no need to pile it high, plus we are knee deep in our very own :Hilarious


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> OH, but it is genuine American poo!!!


I feel an M&S style advertising campaign coming on


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I feel an M&S style advertising campaign coming on


Christmas pooding, Mucky and Sprinkle ...most suitable for No Deal stock filler...


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> *And this is a surprise - to whom?* It was never a secret that we'd be required to allow contaminated food in from the states if we wanted that much lauded trade deal. Makes me laugh that the article even says this isn't what people voted for - yes it is.


I don't know. Those who talk up the fantasy benefits of a US trade deal as compensating for what we lose by leaving the single market either don't know about this sort of thing or manage to maintain a cognitive dissonance regarding the lowering of standards while they do so.

They also seem to ignore the fact that if we lower our food hygiene standards at the behest of Trump, then the border in Ireland is both inevitable and eminently reasonable.

But methinks that won't stop them saying what wonderful news this is and 'proof' that Brexit is going to be the dawn of a wonderful global trading future.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I don't know. Those who talk up the fantasy benefits of a US trade deal as compensating for what we lose by leaving the single market either don't know about this sort of thing or manage to maintain a cognitive dissonance regarding the lowering of standards while they do so.
> 
> They also seem to ignore the fact that if we lower our food hygiene standards at the behest of Trump, then the border in Ireland is both inevitable and eminently reasonable.
> 
> But methinks that won't stop them saying what wonderful news this is and 'proof' that Brexit is going to be the dawn of a wonderful global trading future.
> 
> It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.


Surely Putin and Trump have something to laugh about. 
Damage to Britain, damage to EU without one single shot fired, except the army of trolls on media. 
Grease few palms, call it business, imagine how rich the NewDeals will make those who will arrange them?
Not those who will live with them.
EU is very far from ideal but it was a lot better when Britain had s say in it.
Did you notice that Brexit brought to the fore the most unsuccessful, ridiculous career politicians as leaders?
Immigration problem? Who was the Home Secretary? How successful? You expected she will deliver?
Was BoJo an utter embarrassment and lousy Major of London? He is next in line to PM seat.
Loathsome utterly useless minister, Gove - you really want to see that Gollum on your news daily?
JMR - does not even hide his benevolent contempt for the people.

Corbyn actually betrayed those he as Labour leader should protect, all he wants is to be PM, exactly like the rest of the lot.
Red or Blue Brexit is still damage.


----------



## KittenKong

What took them so long? I've been saying this for months.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...russels-conservative-party-tory-a8589476.html


----------



## KittenKong

Incredible. Heidi Allen tweets appreciation for her leader to graciously allow a parliamentary vote in the event of a no deal.

Sad to think in a supposed democracy she'd have to worry about that.










I did tweet a reply, but deleted it as there was no point in responding to this.


----------



## Elles

Well as Heidi Allen wants to Remain in the Eu and is part of a group pushing for a second referendum with remain as one of the options, maybe she was concerned that TM would try to push through no deal without the house.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Well as Heidi Allen wants to Remain in the Eu and is part of a group pushing for a second referendum with remain as one of the options, maybe she was concerned that TM would try to push through no deal without the house.


I think Theresa May would attempt to do that anyway. Her word cannot be trusted.

Heidi Allen might be pro PV, I respect her for that, but she's still a Tory with, seemingly blind trust towards her leader.

It's rather sad in a supposed democratic country she has to resort to tweeting this.

No one should have to worry about a PM making decisions without consulting parliament.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...-EU-withdrawal-new-deal-border-control-latest

https://brexitcentral.com/financial-sleaze-abuse-taxpayers-cash-brussels-reminder-voted-leave/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html


----------



## Elles

I think she thinks TM is better than Boris. She said she’d leave the tories if Boris or JRM became leader.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...-EU-withdrawal-new-deal-border-control-latest
> 
> https://brexitcentral.com/financial-sleaze-abuse-taxpayers-cash-brussels-reminder-voted-leave/
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html


The Express article is (astoundingly) quite interesting, in that it is another example of an EU politician suggesting changes in the free movement rules, though of course these would not be offered solely to the UK but would apply across the EU. I don't expect that to happen before we leave, but it does seem to be the direction of travel.

The Brexit Central piece misrepresents and cherry picks examples of 'corruption' to further the myth of how the EU is 'corrupt'. I can't think why Brexit Central would want to do that! Interestingly, the accounts of the EU allow for a tighter margin of uncertainty, at 2%, than those of the UK. And the accounts were qualified because funds distributed by the EU were not accounted for properly in some member states, including the UK. But all good stuff if someone is looking for confirmation bias. Have all the UK MPs jailed for expense fiddling been released yet, I wonder?

Not entirely sure that some of Junckers' comments from 2014 and before are terribly relevant to Brexit, especially since he'll be gone in a few months anyway.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Listening to the news last night and this morning....

The whole Br-exit plan is becoming a joke, the government have no more idea of what they are really doing, than, they did, when the vote to come out won.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Listening to the news last night and this morning....
> 
> The whole Br-exit plan is becoming a joke, the government have no more idea of what they are really doing, than, they did, when the vote to come out won.


I agree.

And the latest Brexiter ploy is to claim that what 'everyone' now wants is for the Government to "just get on with it". Listen out for the soundbite.

They're afraid that the longer it goes on, the more people are going to wonder whether it's all worth the hassle. And they might even start listening to the reasons why it isn't, unless you're rich or your sense of self worth is very closely entwined with some notion of national pride (which I freely admit I don't understand).


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45901043


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45901043
> 
> View attachment 372514


Are we sure it's not just Theresa May running through a field of wheat?


----------



## KittenKong

From a right of centre source.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/there...qS_Wq2PqwtP9NNON_JFFzmjxKw6iWHlFYog7LtpTcgFJE


----------



## KittenKong

Well, Theresa May is planning the same for EU citizens in the UK post Brexit.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/f...visas-to-visit-france-under-a-no-deal-brexit/


----------



## noushka05

This is exactly how I feel.

_Whatever their original motives, I will never understand leave voters who continue to trust the shabbiest bunch of mediocrities, liars and halfwits that British politics has ever produce

.........._


----------



## Magyarmum

*EU leaders did not discuss extending Brexit transition period, reveals Donald Tusk
*
http://dev2.cityam.com/266118/eu-le...er&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181018_Fivea


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> This is exactly how I feel.
> 
> _Whatever their original motives, I will never understand leave voters who continue to trust the shabbiest bunch of mediocrities, liars and halfwits that British politics has ever produce
> 
> .........._


Self serving opportunistic career politicians and arrogant buffoons. Just a pity that the half of a nation who voted in 2016 drags the other half into the smelly following those " leaders ". 
Cannot we divide the UK like Korea?
Leave Scotland, London, Oxbridge, NI and Gibraltar in EU?
Pretty please?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> *EU leaders did not discuss extending Brexit transition period, reveals Donald Tusk
> *
> http://dev2.cityam.com/266118/eu-le...er&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181018_Fivea


That's probably right.

Funny how Theresa May comes up with such crap, just as they'll bow to their knees to accept her personal Brexit plan and how traditional Labour voters would switch to her in spite of horrific policies like Windrush/Hostile environment and Universal Credit.

She's nothing but a bare faced liar. 
I never thought I could detest a PM more than Thatcher.She's managed that at least if nothing else.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> That's probably right.
> 
> Funny how Theresa May comes up with such crap, just as they'll bow to their knees to accept her personal Brexit plan and how traditional Labour voters would switch to her in spite of horrific policies like Windrush/Hostile environment and Universal Credit.
> 
> She's nothing but a bare faced liar.
> I never thought I could detest a PM more than Thatcher.She's managed that at least if nothing else.


Wait for BoJo.... that will a gem....
Yes, there are better men, but they voted Remain and did not switch sides to further their career.
I don't think any of the others scrambling for the seat would do much better in this sorry mess with no plan but " hold to your seat, grab what you can".
She wanted it, she got it, she could have had come with better ideas - but her record as Home Secretary gave you idea what she can do really.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.facebook.com/503371706794041/posts/520385658425979/

It is Pet Forums after all!


----------



## Magyarmum

*France*

*Post-Brexit visas for Brits? 'Fake news' says Macron

https://www.france24.com/en/2018101...Quotidienne]-20181019-[contenu]-1171384706311*[/QUOTE]


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> *France*
> 
> *Post-Brexit visas for Brits? 'Fake news' says Macron
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/2018101...Quotidienne]-20181019-[contenu]-1171384706311*


[/QUOTE]

I've always thought that sensible heads would make sure that the more lurid 'day after' predictions would be avoided - such as no flights, and visas for day trips.

But long lines of lorries and significant disruption to just-in-time processes seem very likely simply because WTO rules - and EU ones - demand border checks, however simple, that don't currently exist.


----------



## KittenKong

Another stupid deluded fantasist.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...acron-tell-Barnier-flexible-Brexit-talks.html

*Brexit: Macron and Merkel say EU must be more flexible to solve Ireland*


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 372581


I'm being thick, here; you'll have to provide a link between those two for me!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 372581


Old Hat!

And in case you haven't noticed it's now 2018 and things have moved along since then!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...acron-tell-Barnier-flexible-Brexit-talks.html
> 
> *Brexit: Macron and Merkel say EU must be more flexible to solve Ireland*


It'll be interesting to see how much more creativity is feasible. I suspect it will require movement on both sides rather than Barnier just pulling a lapin out of a chapeau!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> And in case you haven't noticed it's now 2018 and things have moved along since then!


Maybe but it's not doing us much good, we are no further forward as we were then.


----------



## Magyarmum

Someone talking sense at last!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/theresa-may-apos-brexit-still-134613914.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...transition-Theresa-May-EU-UK-referendum-today


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Old Hat!
> 
> And in case you haven't noticed it's now 2018 and things have moved along since then!


Exactly.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...acron-tell-Barnier-flexible-Brexit-talks.html
> 
> *Brexit: Macron and Merkel say EU must be more flexible to solve Ireland*


The Daily Mail would say that wouldn't they. Links to this, Express and The Sun will be ignored at this end.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Someone talking sense at last!
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/theresa-may-apos-brexit-still-134613914.html
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...transition-Theresa-May-EU-UK-referendum-today


I realise I am biased, but yes, the Yahoo piece seems to me very accurate.

The Express piece, not so much, even with the word BRILLIANT in terribly impressive capital letters.

It suggests that what makes the WTO palatable is that it hasn't got the 'bolt-ons' that the single market has, but those bolt-ons are what protects the workers and the environment. Some people - like me - might think that the EU is being responsible rather than unnecessarily bureaucratic in introducing them; as presumably did the British MEP's who voted for them. (Not UKIP, obviously.)

And the only reason that WTO 'barriers and tariffs dropped away' was because countries negotiated trade deals which meant they didn't have to adopt the basic WTO rules. In the absence of a deal with the EU, that is precisely what we would have to do. It's why there's only one country in the world that trades purely on WTO rules (and I can't remember which one it is! )

I could go on, but suffice to say it's the Express, and they almost invariably produce the sort of spun half-truths that are evident in this article and which sound plausible until you dig a little.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The Daily Mail would say that wouldn't they. Links to this, Express and The Sun will be ignored at this end.


You are so predictable! I knew you'd say that which is why I always try to post links from newspapers (very often overseas editions) you probably never read (but I do) but in this case I'd used up my free time on all the others, hence having to risk the inevitable response from you.

Anyway relax, I won't be posting for a few days as I'm off to spend my time in a salt mine where no doubt you'd like me to remain!


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html


----------



## Elles

How funny. This reporter seems to think that leaving the Eu will anger the Russians, not please them. We’re going to run out of aspirin and have blocked toilets? He comes across as a little xenophobic, doesn’t he.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> http://www.spiegel.de/international...-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html


KittenKong, You really do need to move to another country, this country is so obviously not the place for you. If you keep up this hate campaign you will either make yourself a very unhappy person or even worse ill.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> He comes across as a little xenophobic, doesn't he.


Don't see anything there indicating a general hatred of foreigners.


----------



## Elles

What else is suggesting that the British are all arrogant aristocrats and the Polish toilet unblockers, if not a general disdain for foreigners?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> http://www.spiegel.de/international...-country-make-a-fool-of-itself-a-1234143.html
> 
> View attachment 372699


The thing is.... we tend to think everyone owes us something, just because we once had an empire we still think we are something special, well we are not, we are just a small island off the European coast with thoughts of grandeur.


----------



## Elles

Do you?


----------



## Arnie83

I have never experienced anything quite like that march today.

By the time I reached Parliament Square at the end of a slow walk, there were still people waiting to cross the 'start line' in Park Lane and turning onto Piccadilly. Quite ridiculous numbers of people, all demanding a People's Vote. I'll see if I can upload some pictures later, but technology might defeat me!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Apparently half a million people turned up for the march today in London making it the second largest march, the first being the stop the Iraq war march. But the Government didn't listen when the Stop the Iraq war march (one million people took to the streets of London for the stop the Iraq war march http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm) took place and I am sure they won't listen now. The Peoples Vote took place on the 23rd June 2016 and more people turned out for that than ever recorded for any other vote.

Hope those that took part in the pointless march today enjoyed dirupting Londoners and Tourists days today and enjoyed wasting their own time?


----------



## Elles

About the same as the countryside march then. The government didn’t take any notice of that either.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> About the same as the countryside march then. The government didn't take any notice of that either.


That's why they are deaf and blind to what's going on around them


----------



## MollySmith

Arnie83 said:


> I have never experienced anything quite like that march today.
> 
> By the time I reached Parliament Square at the end of a slow walk, there were still people waiting to cross the 'start line' in Park Lane and turning onto Piccadilly. Quite ridiculous numbers of people, all demanding a People's Vote. I'll see if I can upload some pictures later, but technology might defeat me!!


I have deliberately kept away from this thread for many reasons but wanted to say that it's wonderful that you went and thank you from this remainer for going. Dyspraxia and crowds are never good companions so I chose not too but shouted on social media so thanks again.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> About the same as the countryside march then. The government didn't take any notice of that either.


I don't expect May suddenly to change her position; she always does that bit by bit. But Parliament will have taken note, and Labour might consider that it changes the equation that they consider in their internal machinations. You never know.

Besides, I had to go on the march not because I expect it to make a big difference, but because true democracy demanded it of me. The will of the people is very much an unknown at this point, but I would hazard a guess that it doesn't support May's suggested deal, and even less so a No Deal scenario.


----------



## Arnie83

MollySmith said:


> I have deliberately kept away from this thread for many reasons but wanted to say that it's wonderful that you went and thank you from this remainer for going. Dyspraxia and crowds are never good companions so I chose not too but shouted on social media so thanks again.


I must admit, when I was stuck in a mass of people half way down Piccadilly I was feeling very uncomfortable and wondering if it was a good idea! Had to squeeze my way into Green Park and take a short cut before rejoining Piccadilly just past the Ritz. Madness! All in very good humour though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Nobody is saying people can't protest. Free speech and all that. But don't expect it to go anywhere.

Corbyn insists on having Brexit and respecting the peoples choice to leave in the 2016 referendum (Nigel Farage backs a new vote but in 20 years time) by having a Labours version of Brexit which is more chaotic than Mays Brexit. I won't see Corbyn's mind changing anytime soon let alone May's mind changing. Even a tory party leadership challenge won't stop Brexit (2 more signatures needed for the 1922 committee to consider a vote of no confidence). 

Time is running out, don't you get it?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Apparently half a million people turned up for the march today in London making it the second largest march, the first being the stop the Iraq war march. But the Government didn't listen when the Stop the Iraq war march (one million people took to the streets of London for the stop the Iraq war march http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm) took place and I am sure they won't listen now. The Peoples Vote took place on the 23rd June 2016 and more people turned out for that than ever recorded for any other vote.
> 
> Hope those that took part in the pointless march today enjoyed dirupting Londoners and Tourists days today and enjoyed wasting their own time?


Sorry it disappointed you that there's more of us than you thought. Many of us like myself couldn't even attend. Work in my case.

In the past you mentioned my comparisons with the Poll Tax. Now you're comparing this to the Iraq War.

Like the fantasy that is Brexit the thought the entire UK would get behind the union flag and embrace it in celebrations not seen since VE day isn't going to happen.

You say protests like this are pointless. Try telling that to the suffragettes, who were probably told the same thing at the time, that women would never be given the vote. More recently the Poll Tax of course.

Of course the government won't listen. Theresa May will continue to sell her Chequers plan until someone's finally had enough. But protests like todays won't be ignored. At least across the rest of Europe and afar.

I feel very proud today. Well done to everyone that took part.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html










https://news.sky.com/video/lets-get-back-to-being-a-british-empire-11530606


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Sorry it disappointed you that there's more of us than you thought. Many of us like myself couldn't even attend. Work in my case.
> 
> In the past you mentioned my comparisons with the Poll Tax. Now you're comparing this to the Iraq War.
> 
> Like the fantasy that is Brexit the thought the entire UK would get behind the union flag and embrace it in celebrations not seen since VE day isn't going to happen.
> 
> You say protests like this are pointless. Try telling that to the suffragettes, who were probably told the same thing at the time, that women would never be given the vote. More recently the Poll Tax of course.
> 
> Of course the government won't listen. Theresa May will continue to sell her Chequers plan until someone's finally had enough. But protests like todays won't be ignored. At least across the rest of Europe and afar.
> 
> I feel very proud today. Well done to everyone that took part.


Like the little demonstration today you are allowed your opinion.

The million people that marched to stop the Iraq war got ignored and forgotten about. I am sure 5 to 7 hundred thousand people on todays march will to. You say there was more well 17.4 million is more and so was 16 million. So where is the rest of the 16 million odd people?

I can imagine the grief you have had on social media. You won't get it from me as I am not on social media. You won't get it from me on here either because free speech and all that, as that is all it is.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Like the little demonstration today you are allowed your opinion.
> 
> The million people that marched to stop the Iraq war got ignored and forgotten about. I am sure 5 to 7 hundred thousand people on todays march will to. You say there was more well 17.4 million is more and so was 16 million. So where is the rest of the 16 million odd people?


You said it. You didn't forget those who protested against the Iraq War. That's exactly my point.

Not everyone could attend as in any demo. I had to work for example.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You said it. You didn't forget those who protested against the Iraq War. That's exactly my point.


I did forget the stop the Iraq War march. I heard it on the news and looked it up and saw the bbc news report then chose to ignore it just like the Labour Government did at the time. Yes the Labour Government chose to ignore the Stop the Iraq War protest march.


> Not everyone could attend as in any demo. I had to work for example.


So.
Still not the 16 odd million that voted remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong. I know you are out to argue. But I am affraid Brexit is the last thing on my mind at the moment. I have a life beyond pf, politics and Brexit. I am glad the remainers who took part in their walk enjoyed their day out in London sightseeing disrupting Londoners lives and Tourists visiting London.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.indy100.com/article/bre...ns-leave-eu-deal-referendum-final-say-8593806


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Sorry it disappointed you that there's more of us than you thought. Many of us like myself couldn't even attend. Work in my case.
> 
> In the past you mentioned my comparisons with the Poll Tax. Now you're comparing this to the Iraq War.
> 
> Like the fantasy that is Brexit the thought the entire UK would get behind the union flag and embrace it in celebrations not seen since VE day isn't going to happen.
> 
> You say protests like this are pointless. Try telling that to the suffragettes, who were probably told the same thing at the time, that women would never be given the vote. More recently the Poll Tax of course.
> 
> Of course the government won't listen. Theresa May will continue to sell her Chequers plan until someone's finally had enough. But protests like todays won't be ignored. At least across the rest of Europe and afar.
> 
> I feel very proud today. Well done to everyone that took part.


I can guess who you are replying to.

I would just say that those who marched against the Iraq war were proven right when it turned out to be a massive mistake. I think a number of MPs may very well reflect on that when they are asked to vote on the various options that will be put before them over the next few weeks / months.


----------



## Elles

No problem with people marching for what they believe in, in a peaceful, none inciteful manner, which I believe this was? I had no idea there were any marches, for or against.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> https://www.indy100.com/article/bre...ns-leave-eu-deal-referendum-final-say-8593806
> 
> View attachment 372845
> View attachment 372846


The image in Gateshead reminded me of the dying days of the Miners' strike where they'd clearly lost but continued to fight for what they believed in, with plenty of empty seats.

"Believe In Britain", a slogan from The Sun and " Save Brexit". Save Brexit???? I wasn't aware it was under threat.

The amount of "Celebrity" support for a PV is overwhelming.

In contrast there's Michael Caine, who I'm sure will sacrifice his multimillion fortune for what he believes in, saying he'd rather be poor.

A third rate actor from a soon to be a third "country" :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> A third rate actor from a *soon to be a third "country"* :Hilarious


What makes me laugh is you are quick off the mark to put the UK down and yet you are a citizen of the UK and live and work here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> No problem with people marching for what they believe in, in a peaceful, none inciteful manner, which I believe this was? I had no idea there were any marches, for or against.


I didn't know there was any march for Brexit either.


----------



## Arnie83

A Leave Means Leave rally in Harrogate attracted about 1,200 people, including Nigel Farage

I'll make no further comment.


----------



## Elles

Why would Leave need a rally? If we weren’t leaving the Eu they might. I had no idea there were any rallies, marches, speeches or anything else. Clearly publicised as efficiently and persuasively as reasons to remain were.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> What makes me laugh is you are quick off the mark to put the UK down and yet you are a citizen of the UK and live and work here.


You think I have any consideration for a "country" that inflicts deliberate self harm upon itself and its people you are very much mistaken.

None of this is in my name.

Yes, I was once proud of this "country", now most of the time I no longer recognise it.

If you think everyone is going to get behind Theresa May and brexit you are very much mistaken.

The comparisons with the aftermath of WWII from some Brexiters, not saying yourself, is a damn insult to those who fought to defeat fascism.

Now the UK itself is developing into a fascist state itself.

I wonder what people would have thought of Hitler had he been "British"?


----------



## MollySmith

Politicians didn’t listen to the Sunday march for Women in 1908 but we still got the vote. History shows that marches are only the start of events.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat. said:


> I did forget the stop the Iraq War march. I heard it on the news and looked it up and saw the bbc news report then chose to ignore it just like the Labour Government did at the time. Yes the Labour Government chose to ignore the Stop the Iraq War protest march.
> 
> So.
> Still not the 16 odd million that voted remain.


I make no excuses why I didn't go. I simply can't manage the underground and large crowds of 700,000 with a hidden disability. But those that went have tried and many of us had marched at localised events which I have done and I will continue to do. It's better than sitting on a pet forum chasing tales. Time is running out which makes picking battles wisely even more important.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

The Death of a Country 
Lifted from RIFT.

Today is the day of the People’s Vote March in London. As I watch the live coverage on the ‘Independant’ site I can see the comments being made by the many other people watching the same footage. The comments range from ‘Thank you for being there for us – your friends in Spain’ to ‘You lost get over it - OUT OUT OUT’. Those of us who believe in a united Europe are as usual being called ‘Traitors’, ‘losers’ and of course ‘remoaners’. However, I happen to believe that we are British, Patriotic, and wish to see our country prosper in the modern world.

The 2016 referendum was not a football match. However, I realise that the England team normally lose, and that their supporters are therefore normally obliged to ‘get over it’ and so it may seem logical to the Brexit brigade that the losing side should just get on with it and get over it. However, we have a difference here. The England side are still a reality, and will still play because they are part of FIFA. Would the Brexiteers have been so happy to lose the match if losing the match disqualified their team from further World Cup competition ? Would they just ‘get over that’ ? In fact, how would most premier league sides in the UK look if your remove all foreign players ? A bit shorter on numbers I think. And so we start to see the double standards of the Brexiteers. 

BREXIT is not a football match. It is the rejection of the United Kingdom’s place in modern Europe, and the rejection of our place in the world. Many years of history have brought modern Europe into being. From the earliest day the British have been explorers and settlers. Overseas trade, power and financial interest drove the rush to build an Empire as it did for most other European countries (even Belgium managed to ‘bag’ a bit of the Congo…) The power of Nationalism and greed over Diplomacy eventually plunged Europe into the two worst wars in history in the early part of the 20th century, and our foreign allies were called in to help us not only in ending the war, but in rebuilding Europe afterwards. 

Today, London continues to be an important Financial hub, the Monarchy remains at the head of the Commonwealth, European investment in our industries (Renault/Nissan) provide us jobs, and the very construction of the Modern EU reflects the British parliamentary system with an upper and a lower house. The UK has been an important part of the EU, using it’s influence to form EU legislation that helps us and using it’s right of veto when necessary to exclude us from reforms that we felt were not to our advantage ( for example, the adoption of the EURO). The UK has never been ‘dictated to’ by Europe as the UK is Europe. This modern Europe has become a powerful and stable force in world politics and world trade and it has enabled small countries rather like the UK to compete with and trade with and be protected from large countries whose interests may be predatory. This modern Europe has enabled UK citizens to move freely throughout Europe, to live and work where they like, and to enjoy health cover and safety wherever they like. This modern Europe was fought for and built by our Fathers and our Grandfathers and is something to be proud of, not something to be thrown away by Cheap Jack politicians hell bent on remaining in power by rabble rousing. 

The 2016 referendum was flawed from the beginning. Was it advisory or was it a definitive vote? Regardless, why were the 5 million UK citizens who live overseas not able to vote in it ? Many were ‘not eligible’ as they had lived overseas for too long. Other like myself were unable to vote vecause our papers simply didn’t arrive in time. How can you have any form of referendum if those who are most affected by it are unable to have a say ? How many people were unable to vote ? Estimates range from 1.3 million to 8 million. The more important fact is that noone should have been excluded – but we were. 

The claims made by the leave campaign have now all been exposed as lies. Why are these people not now being fined and arrested under electoral law ? Their funding was illegal, yet we are treated to these bigotted imbeciles daily as they are still allowed to broadcast. Why ? We have had over two years to investigate but the authorities seem to have walked away while chanting ‘Brexit means Brexit you loser…’ These of course are the same authorities that failed to implement EU immigration law in place since 1994, and then claimed that the EU was the cause if the immigration problem. These are the same people that failed to claim back the costs of Healthcare from member states under reciprocal agreements, then claimed that the EU is bankrupting the NHS ; the list goes on and would fill pages. 

Today a huge number of people have made the journey from France and Spain to London in order to make their position known. The flights back to the UK have been full as UK citizens return to the UK to do what they can to stop this arrogant band of second rate politicians from sacrificing our precious freedom to live our lives as we want, where we want. If being British is about freedom, then it has to be said the the EU and what it stands for is entirely British. I thank all those who have made the effort to go to London – you are not losers, you are not ‘remoaners’ you are not traitors. You are British people fighting for our rights to freedom of movement, and a place in the modern Europe that so many fought so hard to create. 

BREXIT is a cheap con trick brought about by the self interest of those who have no interest in the well being of the UK or its citizens. The fact that they succeeded in 2016 is already a failure, but also a symptom of a greater problem in the same way that the election of Donald Trump is a symptom of a greater problem in the USA rather than the cause. This is where rabble rousing and soundbites replace common sense, where racial hatred and division replace harmony and integration. This is where mob mentality replaces reality, and where destructive politicians bolster their careers. This is where our country ceases to lead the world in our struggle for a cleaner, peaceful and propserous multi cultural place to live, and descends into the deepest recess of its own arrogance. 

BREXIT is very simply the Death of a Country.


----------



## Elles

I don’t remember seeing a riot a few weeks ago either. Can’t been much of one. What a minority of extremists and racists have to do with the millions of decent, ordinary British people who voted to leave the Eu I fail to see. The government are listening to decent, ordinary British people, the majority of whom voted to leave the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I don't remember seeing a riot a few weeks ago either. Can't been much of one. What a minority of extremists and racists have to do with the millions of decent, ordinary British people who voted to leave the Eu I fail to see. The government are listening to decent, ordinary British people, the majority of whom voted to leave the Eu.


But without exception the TR supporters would've voted for Brexit. You are right to say that many decent ordinary people voted leave in 2016. They were promises of better things, £350m for the NHS for example.

Now there's talk of, "Saving Brexit". Saving what? They're clearly worried aren't they? They haven't even moved from the tried and tested soundbites such as, " Believe In Britain" taken from The Sun for example.

In 2016 "Believe in Britain" was a fantasy of going back to a bygone age with more money for the NHS for example.

In 2018 the same slogan means stockpiling and possible rationing. Motorways converted into lorry parks. "It'll get better after 50 years", when I'll be long dead...

Very different to what the leave campaign promised!

They fear losing momentum and support hoping the obsolete soundbites will work for them again.

You think this is incorrect? Let's wind back to 1997 when Tony Blair was first elected. There was euphoria, the end of 18 years of Tory rule. "Things can only get better". From personal experience they certainly did.

Then fast forward to the 2005 General Election. Labour won on a hugely reduced majority. Much bitterness over Iraq.

Thatcher won a huge landslide in 1983, fueled by the media coverage of the Falklands. She won in many traditional safe Labour seats. Although she still won in 1987 many of the seats she won in 1983 were lost.

There's a moral to this. People eventually get tired of the same old politics, same old politicians, same old soundbites. Even the most passionate Brexiter can't argue Theresa May is doing a good job surely?

And I would question that the government are listening to the " British" people. England for one thing isn't Britain.

And many leave supporters are unhappy with May's Chequers plan, so she's clearly not listening to anyone regardless of how they voted.


----------



## Elles

Theresa May isn’t the government.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Theresa May isn't the government.


The way she's behaving you'd think she believes she is!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> About the same as the countryside march then. The government didn't take any notice of that either.


I don't know if that refers to the Hunting with dogs act or the attempt to sell off Forestry Comission owned land to private investors?

If it was the latter you're referring to they were a lot of protests. I know because I attended one. The government did a U-turn on that plan.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May is on notice.










46 of the 48 letters needed to trigger a vote of no confidence have been received by the Tory 1922 Committee.

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-drinking-in-last-chance-saloon-mps-say-11531337


----------



## Arnie83

I think Andrew Rosindell MP summed up what saddens me about Brexit when he said that the "humiliation of having a pink European passport" would soon be over.

Why did he call the colour 'pink' when it clearly isn't? Because, for him, pink is weak, emasculated. He wants the country with which he self-identifies to be strong, the alpha male silverback, because that way he can feel good about himself via his tribal affiliation.

"Humiliation"? Because he perceives that his tribe is not the undisputed leader of the EU group. We are just one nation among 28. And the others have the power to overrule us in certain matters; to insist that we either follow (most of) the rules of the club or that we leave. While in the tribal group that calls itself Britain Rosindell will never question the rule of law, as determined by a (poorly) elected Parliament, but he rejects it when it applies to a larger group simply because his own tribe's influence is diluted.

And the fact that Rosindell's tribe could have had whatever colour passport it wanted at any time it wanted had clearly passed him by. Did he bother to check the facts? No. Did he just assume that the hated EU had forced it on us? Yes. The epitome of a certain type of Brexiter.

Self-identification as a nation of people who stand alone against others who would control us is hardly unique - look at so many conflicts around the world now and throughout history, at the uprisings and revolutions, the wars for 'self determination' - but some, Rosindell among them, seem to think it is what being British is all about, and that this apparently unique trait is threatened by being part of a larger group. 

When we split from our common ancestor, chimpanzees evolved without developing technology, but they still exhibit exactly the same tribal instincts as we do, defending their territory and reacting to the threat of rival groups with hostility and violence. They, of course, don't have the intellectual ability to reason otherwise. We do. We just don't use it.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 372905
> 
> 
> Theresa May is on notice.
> 
> View attachment 372906
> 
> 
> 46 of the 48 letters needed to trigger a vote of no confidence have been received by the Tory 1922 Committee.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/pm-drinking-in-last-chance-saloon-mps-say-11531337


I believe that when I see it. She has a nasty habit of survival despite gross incompetence and things backfiring on her.

Then, I hope it's true!


----------



## Arnie83

One more little rant:

I was obviously sad the vote went the way it did, but I think what has actually annoyed me most is the way the likes of Rees-Mogg hijacked the whole thing. 17.4 million people had their own good reasons for voting to Leave, and they would have been many and varied - only an idiot would claim otherwise. But Rees-Mogg and the rabid Brexiteers immediately put their own extreme interpretation on it and claimed it to be the Will of the People.

It's that claim that they now hide behind while denying the voters another referendum. It's blindingly obvious that they don't want to ask the question "Is this what you wanted?" not because, as they claim, they already know that the answer is Yes, but because they are (rightly imo) afraid that it is No.

The People cannot be allowed to derail the extremists' agenda.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I can guess who you are replying to.
> 
> I would just say that those who marched against the Iraq war were proven right when it turned out to be a massive mistake. I think a number of MPs may very well reflect on that when they are asked to vote on the various options that will be put before them over the next few weeks / months.


Thank you from me too Arnie for going on the march. Like all those who protested against Iraq everyone who made the effort yesterday to save us from this shambles will be on the right side of history too


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Why did he call the colour 'pink' when it clearly isn't? Because, for him, pink is weak, emasculated. He wants the country with which he self-identifies to be strong, the alpha male silverback, because that way he can feel good about himself via his tribal affiliation.


It's an attitude which doesn't sit well with me as I, like half the population of this country, lack the appendages and attributes he appears to value so highly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 371835
> 
> 
> https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2...th-chronic-illnesses-such-as-type-1-diabetes/


The Government eventually admit there is a problem with Universal credit


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...y-mps-vile-language-theresa-may-yvette-cooper

While I don't condone this sort of thing it's surely up to the Tory party to investigate, not have Yvette Cooper calling them to do so.


----------



## havoc

It was pretty extreme threatening language that was used. I can't stand TM but she didn't deserve that.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> It was pretty extreme threatening language that was used. I can't stand TM but she didn't deserve that.


I agree.

It seems that the more the argument appears to be being lost, or the prize taken further away, the more vitriolic the language becomes. And not just with regard to Theresa May.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> It was pretty extreme threatening language that was used. I can't stand TM but she didn't deserve that.


I certainly don't condone this sort of thing myself, I wouldn't lower myself to that level.

But it's the nasty party we're talking about. With the way they treat the public you can hardly expect them to treat their own with dignity and respect either.

Then, of course with the stupidity of the person/s responsible May gets the sympathy yet again with a possible leadership challenge averted.


----------



## Arnie83

Don't know if this is on live, but it looks interesting ...

Theresa May will tell the Commons on Monday that 95% of the Brexit withdrawal agreement and its protocols are settled as she seeks to demonstrate to anxious MPs in her own party that she is making headway in the increasingly fraught divorce talks.

*The prime minister is expected to confirm she has resolved with the EU the future status of Gibraltar*, developed a protocol around the UK's military base in Cyprus and agreed a mechanism for resolving any future disputes with the EU.​


----------



## Arnie83

Re Gibraltar May says there's an agreement heralding a new era, but no details of what that might be.

On Brexit, they're trying to stitch up Parliament so it doesn't get to do anything but choose between May's Deal or No Deal. So having banged on about Parliamentary Sovereignty as being the reason for Brexit, they're not intent on bypassing it by denying the Commons a meaningful vote. 

There is going to be trouble, and rightly so.

I still can't guess what's going to happen. A lot depends on Labour's decision, because the ERG element won't vote for the amended "Chequers", but I still think a waay will be found to avoid No Deal, which only the loons support.


----------



## KittenKong

Just as I thought. BBC News top story dominated by "Vile abuse of Theresa May", talk about distraction.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was deliberately engineered to cause a distraction, not only to again conceal May's gross incompetence but also to protect her job.

Seems to have worked yet again.unch


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this was deliberately engineered to cause a distraction,


Engineered by whom exactly? Obviously someone is looking to cause a stir but should it ever be found out we may all be surprised. These things are rarely as they first appear.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this was deliberately engineered to cause a distraction





havoc said:


> Engineered by whom exactly? Obviously someone is looking to cause a stir but should it ever be found out we may all be surprised. These things are rarely as they first appear.


My take is that it isn't being engineered; it's just that the extreme Brexiteers in her party are getting more and more concerned that the UK is going to remain tied to the EU via a 'rule book' over which we have no influence, and a customs arrangement that will stay in place until technological advances allow borders to be secured without manual intervention, which may or may not ever happen.

They want her to change tack (or resign) and have no way of forcing her to do so apart from threatening her in ever more lurid and, frankly, irresponsible terms.

But that's just how I see it, and I've been known to be wrong!


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> My take is that it isn't being engineered; it's just that the extreme Brexiteers in her party are getting more and more concerned that the UK is going to remain tied to the EU via a 'rule book' over which we have no influence, and a customs arrangement that will stay in place until technological advances allow borders to be secured without manual intervention, which may or may not ever happen.


You have more faith in them than I. My take is that it's a bunch of juvenile idiots who thought it was funny to act like this after consuming more alcohol than they can cope with - the typical toilet humour having run its course.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Engineered by whom exactly? Obviously someone is looking to cause a stir but should it ever be found out we may all be surprised. These things are rarely as they first appear.





Arnie83 said:


> My take is that it isn't being engineered; it's just that the extreme Brexiteers in her party are getting more and more concerned that the UK is going to remain tied to the EU via a 'rule book' over which we have no influence, and a customs arrangement that will stay in place until technological advances allow borders to be secured without manual intervention, which may or may not ever happen.
> 
> They want her to change tack (or resign) and have no way of forcing her to do so apart from threatening her in ever more lurid and, frankly, irresponsible terms.
> 
> But that's just how I see it, and I've been known to be wrong!


Of course, this is speculation and could indeed be coincidental, but whatever the facts are it has saved Theresa May's job for God knows how long by the distraction that's resulted from this.

This MP on Twitter has condemned the abuse but has yet to name and shame those who were alleged to have said it.

Of course she could genuinely not know having got this info from the media.

Say no more......


----------



## KittenKong

Well, if Theresa May insists visitors from, say France will be treated the same as arriving from, say Brazil after Brexit, this is only to be expected.

As the saying goes, "What's Good For The Goose" and all that.

But wouldn't it be funny if the visiting arrival forms stating purpose of visit had to be in the language of the country visited, as in the UK it has to be done in English?

I wonder how those Brexiters who visit Spain would cope with that?
:Hilarious

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-eu-commission-france-schengen-a8595991.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well, if Theresa May insists visitors from, say France will be treated the same as arriving from, say Brazil after Brexit, this is only to be expected.
> 
> As the saying goes, "What's Good For The Goose" and all that.
> 
> But wouldn't it be funny if the visiting arrival forms stating purpose of visit had to be in the language of the country visited, as in the UK it has to be done in English?
> 
> I wonder how those Brexiters who visit Spain would cope with that?
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-eu-commission-france-schengen-a8595991.html
> 
> View attachment 373130


I really can't see this happening. Unless negotiations broke down into vindictiveness it would be unnecessarily provocative. And while there is no final agreement on May's 'deal' yet, talks with the EU seem to be far more amicable than those within the Tory party.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I really can't see this happening. Unless negotiations broke down into vindictiveness it would be unnecessarily provocative. And while there is no final agreement on May's 'deal' yet, talks with the EU seem to be far more amicable than those within the Tory party.


I guess that depends on Theresa May. If she's determined to view anyone from the EEA area as potentially, "Illegal aliens" after Brexit we can only rightly expect the same would apply to UK citizens crossing into the EEA zone, something everyone takes for granted at present.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I guess that depends on Theresa May. If she's determined to view anyone from the EEA area as potentially, "Illegal aliens" after Brexit we can only rightly expect the same would apply to UK citizens crossing into the EEA zone, something everyone takes for granted at present.


True. She doesn't have the best record when it comes to making foreign visitors feel welcome!


----------



## KittenKong

This was predictable.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/anger...e-1-4818396/amp#click=https://t.co/FwhAaDtcfk


----------



## Vanessa131

KittenKong said:


> Well, if Theresa May insists visitors from, say France will be treated the same as arriving from, say Brazil after Brexit, this is only to be expected.
> 
> As the saying goes, "What's Good For The Goose" and all that.
> 
> But wouldn't it be funny if the visiting arrival forms stating purpose of visit had to be in the language of the country visited, as in the UK it has to be done in English?
> 
> I wonder how those Brexiters who visit Spain would cope with that?
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-eu-commission-france-schengen-a8595991.html
> 
> View attachment 373130


A visitor visa for the UK is available in almost any language, it also translates your answers into English on submission too. Very handy.


----------



## KittenKong

Vanessa131 said:


> A visitor visa for the UK is available in almost any language, it also translates your answers into English on submission too. Very handy.


The ones I've seen state that they must be filled out in English.

Perhaps they're regional differences?


----------



## Vanessa131

KittenKong said:


> The ones I've seen state that they must be filled out in English.
> 
> Perhaps they're regional differences?


They're all now processed on yougov who translates, no matter where you apply the form is the same for you, of course, forms for the official at the embassy to complete differ I assume.

I didn't know how it all worked until a friend from uni was doing hers.


----------



## KittenKong

More nastiness from the Nasty Party.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...apologise-for-cretin-jibe-at-boy-with-eu-flag


----------



## Vanessa131

How could anyone say that about a little boy, we certainly know who the cretin is there.


----------



## Arnie83

Vanessa131 said:


> How could anyone say that about a little boy, we certainly know who the cretin is there.


He claims he was referring to the stepfather, though I'm not sure if he expects us to conclude "Oh, that's all right then." !

I suppose it shows that passions are sometimes rather too high in this particular debate, but it is really isn't a something that can be excused.


----------



## Vanessa131

Arnie83 said:


> He claims he was referring to the stepfather, though I'm not sure if he expects us to conclude "Oh, that's all right then." !
> 
> I suppose it shows that passions are sometimes rather too high in this particular debate, but it is really isn't a something that can be excused.


It's just generally unpleasant isn't it, someone would have to do something awful for me to call them a cretin, but even then, I wouldn't do it publicly!


----------



## havoc

Why did he think he needed to get involved on twitter for goodness sake? What is it about modern technology reduces supposedly intelligent people to behaving like cretinous teenagers?


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> Why did he think he needed to get involved on twitter for goodness sake? What is it about modern technology reduces supposedly intelligent people to behaving like cretinous teenagers?


I suspect it's the same sort of effect as you sometimes get when someone gets behind the wheel of a car!


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect it's the same sort of effect as you sometimes get when someone gets behind the wheel of a car!


Could be. Politicians and their staff don't usually make a point of putting their names to driving like idiots though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see May has been summoned to attend a 1922 committee meeting tomorrow. Rumours are going around she is going to be informed a leadership challenge is being triggered within the Conservative Party.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I see May has been summoned to attend a 1922 committee meeting tomorrow. Rumours are going around she is going to be informed a leadership challenge is being triggered within the Conservative Party.


:Jawdrop


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Jawdrop


That was my initial thoughts. But she has made a right mess of Brexit. It is believed that all of the 48 letters of no confidence required to trigger a leadership challenge have now been received.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> That was my initial thoughts. But she has made a right mess of Brexit. It is believed that all of the 48 letters of no confidence required to trigger a leadership challenge have now been received


Yeah, that's exactly what the country needs at the moment


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is the source of the information so you don't think it is being made up. A few other media outlets are reporting virtually the same thing.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what the country needs at the moment


It's almost like they're trying wrest the Most Embarrasing World Leadership title back from the White House...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I hate to burst the bubble of those who think Corbyn and the Labour party are going to come to the rescue and stop Brexit because....


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I see May has been summoned to attend a 1922 committee meeting tomorrow. Rumours are going around she is going to be informed a leadership challenge is being triggered within the Conservative Party.


I certainly hope so, but I think she'll get away with it again unfortunately.



stockwellcat. said:


> Well I hate to burst the bubble of those who think Corbyn and the Labour party are going to come to the rescue and stop Brexit because....
> View attachment 373255


I think 99.9% of the population know that by now. Indeed they were banners at the march and chants of, "Where's Jeremy Corbyn?" He has lost the support of so many, myself included.

Labour do of course have a pro-EU side, as do the Tories remarkably which we never get to hear about on the usual media.

Meanwhile, brexiters are certainly doing the nation proud aren't they? The inventor who was knighted after moving production to China now reports opening a plant in Singapore rather than the UK.

So much for them, "Believing In Britain"....


----------



## Britt

As you know I live in Belgium but most of my friends live in Great Britain. I understand why some of you want to leave the EU but I wish there was a new referendum. I'm pretty sure the results would be different.


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> It's almost like they're trying wrest the Most Embarrasing World Leadership title back from the White House...


Its a close call for sure. Anglophobes must be laughing their heads off at the demise of this country while Anglophiles (if theres any left ! ) must be watching in shocked disbelief.

This is insane. And as if it couldnt get any worse - CHRIS GRAYLING is the minister in charge of importing enough food and medicines  Could she have chosen anyone more inept??











*Darren McCaffrey*‏ @DarrenEuronews 11h11 hours ago
BREXIT: I can't believe I'm tweeting this about the U.K.

in 2018 via @FT Britain is drawing up plans to charter ships to bring in emergency food and medicines in the event of a "no-deal" Brexit next March, in a move greeted with disbelief at a stormy meeting of cabinet on today

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## KittenKong

Britt said:


> As you know I live in Belgium but most of my friends live in Great Britain. I understand why some of you want to leave the EU but I wish there was a new referendum. I'm pretty sure the results would be different.


The UK government and the so called opposition leader refuse to consider this unfortunately. They got the result they wanted, thus won't allow the people another say.

This article is interesting regarding the Lisbon treaty referendum held in Ireland in the 1990s.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/o...mocracy-just-look-at-the-lisbon-treaty/22/10/


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 10h10 hours ago
2016: "Sunlit uplands"
"An extra £350m for the NHS!"

 2018:


----------



## noushka05

Another really good editorial by the Observer.

*
While Europe remains united in defence of its principles, the Tory party is hopelessly divided. Voters must be given a voice*


Theresa May's plea for help was met with embarrassment and pity by the other 27 leaders in Brussels.
The way the hard Tory Brexiters told it, Europe's leaders should have been begging for mercy by now. Instead, Germany's Angela Merkel and France's Emmanuel Macron popped out for a convivial beer or two in a Brussels brasserie after last week's supposedly make-or-break EU summit. If they were worried about the latest failure to complete a Brexit deal, they were hiding it well. The contrast with Theresa May, who dined alone after her nervy plea for help was met with embarrassment and pity by the other 27 leaders, was stark. Humiliating does not begin to describe the situation the government has got itself into.

What has happened to all those German car manufacturers whose panic at the prospect of losing British sales would force the German government to bow to Brexiters' demands? David Davis, the former Brexit secretary who quit while he was behind, is still peddling this fantasy. The reality is that Europe's exporters would rather preserve the single market, which has massively benefited them and us. And just in case Boris Johnson wonders, Italian prosecco-makers are also holding their nerve with true Brit grit.

The sorry truth of the matter is that the hard Tory Brexiters, and a large chunk of an ageing, out-of-touch, predominantly southern English Conservative party, do not understand Europe or the EU or what it means to be European. They cling doggedly to a grossly distorted, sentimental view of history that portrays this country as a unique exemplar of enlightened governance, swashbuckling enterprise and imperial endeavour that rose, by right, to be first among nations. They believe Britain (by which they really mean England) could lead the world again, if only freed of Europe's jealous embrace.

*People's Vote supporters who marched through London*, *and the millions who back their call for a second referendum, understand the idea and importance of Europe very well*. *For them*, it means the chance to travel, study, work and live abroad. *For them*, Europe means inclusiveness, shared values and laws, mutual tolerance and a joyful openness to the majestic richness of myriad lifestyles, languages, traditions and beliefs.


Europe is where many of our young people, this country's future, already dwell, spiritually, culturally, politically and aspirationally. For them, Brexit is a wanton act of family separation, brutally wrecking the European home where they were raised. Unrealistic claims have been made about civil unrest if Brexit is thwarted. Yet if it goes ahead willy-nilly, the prospective backlash among our younger generations at seeing their future opportunities and prosperity so cruelly curtailed should alarm everybody. Many of Britain's best and brightest may simply up and leave.

Shame on these hard Tory Brexiters who would sacrifice our children's futures for an illusion. They know very well what they don't like, these stick-in-the mud reactionaries. They don't like the single market, the customs union and the European court. And, polls show, they don't give a fig about the union, Scotland's wishes or peace on the Irish border. What do they like? A return, perhaps, to an imagined nirvana at the apogee of the Victorian age? And how will they achieve it? On this, for more than two years, they have never, ever been clear or honest.

Whenever Theresa May tries to turn the Brexit wishlist into binding words on paper, they scream betrayal. Every time her impractical ideas are rebuffed by a unified EU, they plunge back into denial. Every time the prime minister hints at a concession, they turn rebellious. May has only herself to blame, as we have said before. The appeasement of such dogmatic critics never works. They will never be satisfied - because all they seem to know, and what they seem most to enjoy, is whingeing from the wings.

May is running out of road, both in the Brexit talks and as prime minister. To call all this a "shitshow", as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer did, is not inaccurate. His crudeness is on a par with the futility of May's quest to hold her dysfunctional party together while achieving a deal that the entire EU, parliament and even the noisome Democratic Unionists can approve. Britain is on the brink of a historic calamity, for which the country's entire political class must share the blame. Brexit, on any currently available terms, will be a disaster. No deal will be worse. The politicians have failed, so the people must take charge. We must have a second referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...xit-peoples-vote-way-forward?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## Elles

Let’s run Europe? Let’s not. However, that could be a way to appeal to people who do want a new Empire I suppose.


----------



## Elles

The French and German ministers have said that there will be no problem with air space after Brexit, whether there’s a deal or not. You should watch some interviews with influential French and German ministers, they are far more sensible than this reporting.

They are preparing legislation too for there being no withdrawal deal and say that a bad deal could be worse than no deal, not just just for us, for them too. They want a smooth exit regardless.

When you watch them on the news channels they don’t call it ‘brexit’ and run around panicking like headless chickens. They call it a withdrawal agreement and discuss it sensibly.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The UK government and the so called opposition leader refuse to consider this unfortunately. They got the result they wanted, thus won't allow the people another say.
> 
> This article is interesting regarding the Lisbon treaty referendum held in Ireland in the 1990s.
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/o...mocracy-just-look-at-the-lisbon-treaty/22/10/


When people say in arguing against a further referendum that the "EU" will make you vote again until you get it right it always occurs to me what a low opinion they have of either themselves or the rest of the People if they think they will be cowed into submission just by being asked to have another vote. The number of times I've read that "The British People will not be bullied by the [pick a suitably silly description] in Brussels" and yet the reaction to being asked to give their view again would be sufficient to force them into voting against their own wishes, but in obedience to the 'elite'.

Anyhoo.

Re the comparison with Lisbon & Ireland, I agree that our original referendum was an example of something very different from democracy with lies, half-truths and speculation based on a complete absence of accepted theory, but the truth was there if people had been bothered to find it out. In that sense, you could argue that they only have themselves to blame if we crashed out with no deal and the economy went down the pan.

My argument for another vote is, and always has been, that so much has changed in the last 28 months that the interpretation put on "the Will of the People" is entirely unsafe. The People must be asked if what they are being offered is what they now want. And if not, what is?

Democracy, including the right to change your mind, demands it.


----------



## Elles

The main problem I see with another remain/leave referendum is that there will be nothing ever again to vote on. A vote, or referendum that politicians say they will act upon, will be viewed sceptically with people saying ‘what’s the point, look at what happened with the Eu vote. If they don’t like the answer, they’ll just have another go.’ 

When I listen to interviews with foreign ministers who aren’t biased, they make a lot of what we read in the papers and see from our bloggers and tweeters seem really exaggerated and, yes, trying to scare people into wanting to stay in the Eu. More manipulation of the general public and a lot of it is being posted here.

Even Europe accepts that we have to leave. Their main concern is the withdrawal agreement, not a second referendum. They also say that any agreement is unlikely to be permanent and will be fluid. Future politicians and negotiators will be able to renegotiate, on both sides. It’s not just the British to think about.


----------



## Vanessa131

We had some big discussions about this before the vote took place, the general view in our work place was for us to have a vote on whether leaving was explored, then to vote again on the proposed package.

As after all, those voting out didn’t actually know what they were voting for, which meant you couldn’t make an informed decision. 

People fail to look at the bigger picture, we’re all guilty of it.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Re the comparison with Lisbon & Ireland, I agree that our original referendum was an example of something very different from democracy with lies, half-truths and speculation based on a complete absence of accepted theory, but the truth was there if people had been bothered to find it out. In that sense, you could argue that they only have themselves to blame if we crashed out with no deal and the economy went down the pan.


Even if the economy doesn't go down the pan they won't benefit and will only have themselves to blame. The chances of any benefits reaching the many are less than a snowball's in a very hot place whilst concentrated power and wealth will be able to override any hope of a fair society and social justice. There's little hope as far as I can see for anything but pretty extreme right wing government in this country for the forseeable future and those who will be in charge have made it very clear their only interest is personal gain. They don't even bother to hide it any more.


----------



## Elles

Can I recommend Jonathan Holslag interviews and lectures. He brings the wider picture and looks at how economics and stagnation in some Eu countries and the power plays in Asia had their part to play. I very much enjoy his lectures and he makes perfect sense, though of course he’s far more expert, educated and intelligent than I am.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The main problem I see with another remain/leave referendum is that there will be nothing ever again to vote on. A vote, or referendum that politicians say they will act upon, will be viewed sceptically with people saying 'what's the point, look at what happened with the Eu vote. If they don't like the answer, they'll just have another go.'


I see that, but don't agree with it. If I voted on something and they asked me to vote again, and I hadn't changed my mind, I'd vote the same way. Why wouldn't I?

And in this case, were there another vote, the government would be encouraging us to vote for May's deal, rather than to Remain. That would make things interesting!



Elles said:


> When I listen to interviews with foreign ministers who aren't biased, they make a lot of what we read in the papers and see from our bloggers and tweeters seem really exaggerated and, yes, trying to scare people into wanting to stay in the Eu. More manipulation of the general public and a lot of it is being posted here.
> 
> *Even Europe accepts that we have to leave.* Their main concern is the withdrawal agreement, not a second referendum. They also say that any agreement is unlikely to be permanent and will be fluid. Future politicians and negotiators will be able to renegotiate, on both sides. It's not just the British to think about.


I think they accept that we (probably) are leaving, but not that we have to. They would still prefer us to stay. It's in their interests as much as ours, after all.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I see that, but don't agree with it. If I voted on something and they asked me to vote again, and I hadn't changed my mind, I'd vote the same way. Why wouldn't I?
> 
> And in this case, were there another vote, the government would be encouraging us to vote for May's deal, rather than to Remain. That would make things interesting!
> 
> I think they accept that we (probably) are leaving, but not that we have to. They would still prefer us to stay. It's in their interests as much as ours, after all.


I agree that they would prefer us to stay in the Eu. I'm not sure that anyone other than Theresa May would be encouraging us to vote for her deal though. Unless she and the Eu can agree on the last few issues, for example the Irish problem.

It does concern me that TM might get kicked out. No one else wants her job and unfortunately I cant see anyone else who is in a position to take it doing a better job than she is anyway. Forcing a change in pm and possibly a GE now, would be rather tedious and I can see the Eu throwing up their hand with a Quelle Horreur at having to start negotiations again with someone like Boris.


----------



## Jesthar

Vanessa131 said:


> We had some big discussions about this before the vote took place, the general view in our work place was for us to have a vote on whether leaving was explored, then to vote again on the proposed package.
> 
> *As after all, those voting out didn't actually know what they were voting for, which meant you couldn't make an informed decision. *
> 
> People fail to look at the bigger picture, we're all guilty of it.


An eminently sensible viewpoint. Sadly, not one accepted by many of the hardcore leavers!

I know several people who voted Leave and now wish they'd voted Remain. Plenty more who were hoping for sensible negotiations involving the Norway model or something similar, not this disasterous ego-centric implosion by our side...


----------



## Elles

The problem is they said at the time that there’d be no second referendum, that would be it and if we voted leave, we’d leave.

It should be the same if we’d voted remain.

Of course whichever side ‘lost’ would want another go, but imho they shouldn’t get one. If only because of what it will do to politics and the lasting impression it would give that a vote is meaningless. I’m not comfortable with it, I don’t have a personal problem with being asked again, but I do have concerns about what a second referendum at this stage would do, what we’d actually be asked to vote on and how informed we could be and how easy it would be to create a stalemate. We are not at the end of the negotiations yet and we still have a conservative government.

We should not have voted for a government that promised to see it through if we want to stay in the Eu. That includes Labour voters as well as Conservative. Those millions that want to remain and who go out on marches with banners and post tweets and Facebook messages, should have voted for a Remain government if it was that important to them and think that the lives of their children and childrens’ children are being ruined. Many of those who wanted to leave voted UKIP before the referendum, despite not agreeing with their general politics, because they felt strongly enough about leaving. It seems Remainers didn’t.

They had a second chance at the last GE, but fell for Corbyn’s promises, instead of making their position clear with a vote for Lib Dems. Instead Lib Dems were pretty much destroyed by the last GE and it was Lib Dems who gave the greatest, if not the only chance of staying in the Eu. 

And let’s not pretend, the desire for a second referendum has little to do with being given a vote on May’s deal, or being sensible about what’s on offer and more to do with wanting to stay in the Eu, or as close as possible to it. For many who want a second referendum, however close TM comes to leaving the Eu in name only, it won’t be good enough and they could vote against any deal that means leaving the Eu. If Remain isn’t an option, we could find no deal with a huge majority, even if the deal is the best it could be, with people voting against what they don’t want, rather than for what they do.


----------



## noushka05

May lost her entire mandate for hard brexit in the election @Elles. That is why she had to bribe the DUP!. The tories sent out letters & the leaflets full of propaganda & scaremongering to delegitimise labour/corbyn & urging us to vote for May to secure their mandate for tory brexit - and the electorates response was - up yours! And no deal was never on the table. But they are intent on dragging us over the cliff anyway - the brextremists & their supporters don't care about democracy.


----------



## noushka05

Ukippers standing by their principles I see.

*Julie Girling #FBPE*‏Verified account @juliegirling
Never seen so many UKIP members attend a meeting in Strasbourg before...the subject? ....Members entitlements after Brexit!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> People are planting trees and cleaning the oceans. Developing clean meat and clean fuel. We have environmentally friendly technologies being researched and developed. Brexit is barely relevant, the U.K. isn't that important and it's tiny. The U.K. leaving the Eu is hardly going to bring about a world catastrophe and climate Armageddon. It seems some of the political tweeters think Britain is even more important than they claim leavers want it to be. If Britain and Theresa May are nothing but a laughing stock to the rest of the World, why would our politics make any difference.


Obviously the tories have a been disastrous for the environment here & in the EU. But we can vote them out & vote for progressive political parties, MPs & MEPs. Progressive leadership is the only way to make the radical & urgent progressive changes to save our dying biosphere.



Magyarmum said:


> https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate-guide/science/uk/ipcc
> 
> https://www.carbonbrief.org/in-depth-how-the-uk-plans-to-adapt-to-climate-change
> 
> https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/artic...-review-its-emission-plan-after-ipcc-climate-
> change-warning
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...ction-summit-moscone-centre-14-september-2018
> 
> https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/1...nt-seeks-advice-on-net-zero-emissions-target/


I've lazily pinched this out of the comments section of one of your links because it is spot on !

The only difference between the Tories and the GOP is the Tories are much better at PR and hiding their rottenness under a thin coat of greenwash. As a neo-liberal organisation, totally averse to regulation, and dedicated to feathering the nests of their wealthy donors, they have to work hard to make it look as if they have any interest in the people, or the planet.

"Asking for advice" is just like holding an enquiry, or asking for a report, just another delaying tactic, while they think hard about how to avoid doing anything, while sounding so very concerned. The "advice" has been around for about 50 years - "Stop burning the fossil-fuels". What more advice do they need?

The BBC has recently issued guidelines that "balanced reporting" does not mean giving air time to climate deniers, in reports about climate change. I really think that CleanTechnica should not be reporting on statements by the Tory government as if they were factual content, and should be a little more skeptical, and analytical. It should not be left to readers to point out the realities in comments.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> We should not have voted for a government that promised to see it through if we want to stay in the Eu. That includes Labour voters as well as Conservative. Those millions that want to remain and who go out on marches with banners and post tweets and Facebook messages, should have voted for a Remain government if it was that important to them and think that the lives of their children and childrens' children are being ruined. Many of those who wanted to leave voted UKIP before the referendum, despite not agreeing with their general politics, because they felt strongly enough about leaving. It seems Remainers didn't.
> 
> They had a second chance at the last GE, but fell for Corbyn's promises, instead of making their position clear with a vote for Lib Dems. Instead Lib Dems were pretty much destroyed by the last GE and it was Lib Dems who gave the greatest, if not the only chance of staying in the Eu


Not really that simple, though, is it? Even if they had all voted Lib Dem, if they were in a Labour or Conservative stronghold, it wouldn't make much of a difference in First Past The Post. You also have the legacy of the Lib Dems getting in to bed with the Tories, which pretty much sunk them as a party and may well take a generation or two to recover from.



noushka05 said:


> The only difference between the Tories and the GOP is the Tories are much better at PR and hiding their rottenness under a thin coat of greenwash. As a neo-liberal organisation, totally averse to regulation, and dedicated to feathering the nests of their wealthy donors, they have to work hard to make it look as if they have any interest in the people, or the planet


Oddly enough, I overheard a discussion today which educated me on how much of our clean water/effluent discharge regulations are EU driven. I'm sure i'm no the only one to remember when rivers were a lot less wildlife friendly than they currently are...


----------



## Elles

It wouldn’t be that simple, no. However my main point was that before the referendum people who knew UKIP wouldn’t get into power and who didn’t agree with many of their policies or sentiments, voted for them anyway, because leaving the Eu was their main priority. If leaving the Eu is as disastrous as is being, and has been, touted, staying in the Eu should have been the main priority for those voters who think that way. Stuff Labour’s promises, or your support for Conservative policies, vote for the party who offered a second vote and to remain in the Eu. Whether that’s the Green Party, or Lib Dems. I really don’t understand why not. No wonder Labour and Conservative alike, still believe that leaving the Eu is the only way forward. It’s what the majority of those who have an opinion appear to have voted for twice now.

Even if a swing towards a ‘remain’ party, or mp or two hadn’t brought about a change in actual government, it would have made a point and could have made a difference. Jmho


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Stuff Labour's promises, or your support for Conservative policies, vote for the party who offered a second vote and to remain in the Eu. Whether that's the Green Party, or Lib Dems.


You've just disenfranchised me. I didn't have such a wealth of candidates to choose from.


----------



## Elles

You had no Lib Dem or green candidate in your area? Then no vote, a spoiled ballot paper, letters and emails expressing your disatisfaction would have been your only options I suppose.


----------



## Elles

In my area we have a Labour mp who has been in place for some years now. He’s not a Corbyn supporter and wants to remain in the Eu, so he doesn’t really represent his constituents who want to leave either. My actual local area voted in a green councillor, one of only a few. If it wasn’t for Ben Bradshaw and that green put forward a university student with little to no promotion outside of the uni, there would have been a chance for greens to have done better I feel.

However despite Brexit being supposedly a huge issue, leading to doom, destruction, loss of life and ruined futures, people seemed to think other issues were more important in the last GE.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> However despite Brexit being supposedly a huge issue, leading to doom, destruction, loss of life and ruined futures, people seemed to think other issues were more important in the last GE.


I wish more people were concerned about the running of this country instead of assuming it's all going to be rainbows and unicorns just because we leave the EU. In or out we need good government (more so if we're out) and there's no sign of any chance of such a thing for many years to come.


----------



## Vanessa131

Elles said:


> It wouldn't be that simple, no. However my main point was that before the referendum people who knew UKIP wouldn't get into power and who didn't agree with many of their policies or sentiments, voted for them anyway, because leaving the Eu was their main priority. If leaving the Eu is as disastrous as is being, and has been, touted, staying in the Eu should have been the main priority for those voters who think that way. Stuff Labour's promises, or your support for Conservative policies, vote for the party who offered a second vote and to remain in the Eu. Whether that's the Green Party, or Lib Dems. I really don't understand why not. No wonder Labour and Conservative alike, still believe that leaving the Eu is the only way forward. It's what the majority of those who have an opinion appear to have voted for twice now.
> 
> Even if a swing towards a 'remain' party, or mp or two hadn't brought about a change in actual government, it would have made a point and could have made a difference. Jmho


Lots areas don't have a Libdem or Green candidate. At the last GE there weren't enough Green candidates for it to be possible to win a majority vote, Libdems only just had enough candidates, due to people abandoning them after Cleggs disastrous leadership.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May comes out of 1922 committee meeting strong than she went in.










https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-faces-tory-critics-in-westminster-showdown-11534453


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It wouldn't be that simple, no. However my main point was that before the referendum people who knew UKIP wouldn't get into power and who didn't agree with many of their policies or sentiments, voted for them anyway, because leaving the Eu was their main priority. If leaving the Eu is as disastrous as is being, and has been, touted, staying in the Eu should have been the main priority for those voters who think that way. Stuff Labour's promises, or your support for Conservative policies, vote for the party who offered a second vote and to remain in the Eu. Whether that's the Green Party, or Lib Dems. I really don't understand why not. No wonder Labour and Conservative alike, still believe that leaving the Eu is the only way forward. It's what the majority of those who have an opinion appear to have voted for twice now.
> 
> Even if a swing towards a 'remain' party, or mp or two hadn't brought about a change in actual government, it would have made a point and could have made a difference. Jmho


I think the people who voted for UKIP were the ones for whom getting out of the EU was THE big issue, and there were indeed 4 million of them, sadly.

But for a lot of people it wasn't a big enough issue to dissuade them from voting the way they always have and always will. It's another, very good, example of the tribalism that I keep banging on about. They weren't necessarily voting in favour of a particular policy, it's just that the feeling one way or the other wasn't strong enough to overcome their duty of belonging. Floating voters are quite a small minority.

Plus, of course, as a rule people's main concern is their own economic well-being. And for many the Labour party promise more for the 'poor' and the Tories for the 'rich'. At the time of the last election there was not nearly as much agreement as there is now that leaving the EU is going to be bad for all who can't shift their liquid assets elsewhere (like Redwood and Rees-Mogg).

Taken as a whole, there wasn't enough incentive to vote for, say the LibDems, especially as they were still being blamed for their coalition with the Tories, and with an uninspiring leader.

It could be argued that the one Brexit-related thing the voters did was to reject a hard / no deal version of Brexit, but even that is very debatable.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May comes out of 1922 committee meeting strong than she went in.
> 
> View attachment 373335
> 
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-faces-tory-critics-in-westminster-showdown-11534453


How much longer must this go on for before the next time?

Her luck's going to run out eventually.


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## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> How much longer must this go on for before the next time?
> 
> Her luck's going to run out eventually.


Just because of alternatives: JRM, BoJo, Loathsome ?So far where is the plausible replacement? That could be acceptable for Tories?


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## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Just because of alternatives: JRM, BoJo, Loathsome ?So far where is the plausible replacement? That could be acceptable for Tories?


That is correct.

There is no plausable alternative to May. So it looks like the UK has her as PM through Brexit and into the next GE.

I see @cheekyscrip a deal has been done with Gibralter, UK and Spain. I hope this makes you feel more at ease?


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## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> That is correct.
> 
> There is no plausable alternative to May. So it looks like the UK has her as PM through Brexit and into the next GE.
> 
> I see @cheekyscrip a deal has been done with Gibralter, UK and Spain. I hope this makes you feel more at ease?


Not before I know how much SPAIN gained in raising our taxes and other issues affecting our economy.
It was not about this little piece of land being passed to Spain but it was about strangling our economy which Madrid wants no matter how it affects the Spanish side.
Brexit affected our companies already and financial services NOT just tourism are the biggest providers of the employment.

Understand that I have family and animals to feed and I already changed my workplace because of Brexit - my previous work went into wind down.
Now it may happen again and in this tiny place is not easy to find something else.
There are other very important reasons which are not to be discussed here but if our government has empty chests it will affect us in very serious way.


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## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Just because of alternatives: JRM, BoJo, Loathsome ?So far where is the plausible replacement? That could be acceptable for Tories?





stockwellcat. said:


> That is correct.
> 
> There is no plausable alternative to May. So it looks like the UK has her as PM through Brexit and into the next GE.
> 
> I see @cheekyscrip a deal has been done with Gibralter, UK and Spain. I hope this makes you feel more at ease?


I most strongly disagree as you'd expect. I doubt very much the Tories as a party would replace May with Mogg. They tried implementing a far right leader in the form of IDS and suffered one of their biggest election defeats ever in 2001.

When Thatcher was ousted they replaced her with a moderate. This could happen again with May when her time comes. Even if they didn't there's few if any I would consider worse than she is.

Do you really want to be controlled by a deluded incompetent fascist telling you she's implementing the Brexit YOU voted for when it's clearly isn't?

Oh yes, the pro Brexit spin in the media. Depends where you look. May claims 95% of an agreement with the EU has been reached. Another bare faced lie.

With Brexters and Remainers within the party losing confidence in her it won't be long until the next fine mess she makes.


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## cheekyscrip

No doubt May will peddle her deal on Gibraltar as triumphant and only us here will know the real price of it.

Our Government not in a hurry to let us know.

The same will happen in UK , it will stay British, jobs will be affected though and people will be poorer except a few who will make a fortune on it.
The difference - Gibraltar did not ask for it.
Imagine you have kids, lose your job in a small place which you cannot leave because you have to look after your relatives, would you worry?


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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/22/raci...62697/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


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## KittenKong




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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 373441
> View attachment 373443
> View attachment 373444
> View attachment 373446


https://www.motor1.com/news/273209/dyson-building-car-singapore/

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/201...euters-britain-dyson-singapore-explainer.html

https://capx.co/the-real-brexit-lesson-from-dysons-decision-to-build-his-cars-in-singapore/


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## havoc

_Instead, Dyson's decision came down to the availability of engineering talent.
_
You mean we aren't set for all those high quality jobs to come rolling in - who knew?


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## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 373401


Thats made me smile this morning! Thank you KK!


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## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 373401


So true...


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## Arnie83

The always over-optimistic idea that transition onto WTO terms would be easy has just been scuppered by an official complaint by Russia. It means that the amount of trade we can do before tariffs are applied is not going to be as high as we'd hoped. There's a shock.

From The Times

*Brexit: Russia moves to block UK's vision for world trade*

Almost two dozen countries including Russia are attempting to prevent Britain from staying within the World Trade Organisation on terms similar to those it has enjoyed as a member of the European Union.

About 20 members of the WTO, which is based in Geneva, were understood last night to have raised objections to the UK's post-Brexit trade proposals. As it prepares to become an independent WTO member after leaving the EU in March, Britain has proposed effectively replicating its share of the bloc's imported goods.

British officials have identified what they say is a fair share of EU quotas - limits on the amount of goods which can be traded between members before steep tariffs are introduced - and circulated their plans to WTO members in July.

Members had three months to object to the proposals, giving them until last night. A single objection prevents the WTO from certifying such schedules.

Countries including the United States and New Zealand have expressed concern over the proposals, which are based on Britain's historical share of EU imports.

The Department for International Trade, led by Liam Fox, insisted yesterday that it was "not uncommon" for members to object after it emerged that *Russia had lodged an official objection*. A spokeswoman said that there were "well-established processes for dealing with this". MLex, a news website, reported that Russia had argued Britain's proposals were inconsistent with its obligations under WTO rules.

David Henig, a former assistant director at the trade department, said: "This is another case of the government being too optimistic. Welcome to trade reality."​


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.motor1.com/news/273209/dyson-building-car-singapore/
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/201...euters-britain-dyson-singapore-explainer.html
> 
> https://capx.co/the-real-brexit-lesson-from-dysons-decision-to-build-his-cars-in-singapore/


I didn't say this had anything to do with Brexit. It should have everything to do with it! Dyson should practice what he preaches by moving production of his once fashionable household items back to the UK he alleges to believe in so much.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> _Instead, Dyson's decision came down to the availability of engineering talent. _


And many brexiters have the cheek to accuse the non Brexit supporters of putting "their country" down by not getting behind it?!

What a flaming hypocrite Dyson is to suggest the "British" lack such talent.


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## KittenKong

Someone on another forum suggested Chris Grayling should be put in charge of Brexit.

The UK would adopt schengen and the Euro in no time....

https://www.ft.com/content/4ffccd1a-d782-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8


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## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> It means that the amount of trade we can do before tariffs are applied is not going to be as high as we'd hoped. There's a shock


You mean the rest of the world isn't going to bend over backwards to make us a special case - who knew?


----------



## Elles

It seems the Russians want us to stay in the Eu after all.


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## Arnie83

havoc said:


> You mean the rest of the world isn't going to bend over backwards to make us a special case - who knew?


Well clearly not Liam Fox, Ian Duncan-Smith, etc. or indeed anyone claiming that the wonderful universe of global trade would just go to show how much the EU has been holding us back.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It seems the Russians want us to stay in the Eu after all.


I think they're just causing more trouble for more countries.

If we are still going full steam ahead towards the exit door despite the damage it's going to do, I don't think that elongated WTO schedule negotiations are going to stop us.


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## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It seems the Russians want us to stay in the Eu after all.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hungover It is a fair warning from Mr Putin that out of EU we will be a fair game...

Not that our Brexiteers will pay notice to that.


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## Elles

This interesting lecture is from before the referendum. It's not about Brexit, we hadn't been given a vote yet, but more about where the world and the Eu is heading, economically and politically. It's a long one and there are more recent lectures, but I found this one particularly interesting, because it was before the referendum. It has some relevance today, given Dyson's recent decision.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=MEvjF8eaGfQ

Ref brexiteers looking for dual nationality. We voted to leave the Eu not Europe. I'm sure many did vote leave to put up some wall against Europe and even hoped to float off towards America, but some people don't like where the Eu is heading and hoped Leave would bring about its downfall. They don't necessarily want to be isolated from the rest of Europe. It's not so much hypocritical of them, as self serving. Most of us don't have the opportunity. I can't get dual nationality, but if I could, I probably would.


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## cheekyscrip

I th


Elles said:


> This interesting lecture is from before the referendum. It's not about Brexit, we hadn't been given a vote yet, but more about where the world and the Eu is heading, economically and politically. It's a long one and there are more recent lectures, but I found this one particularly interesting, because it was before the referendum. It has some relevance today, given Dyson's recent decision.
> 
> https://youtube.com/watch?v=MEvjF8eaGfQ
> 
> Ref brexiteers looking for dual nationality. We voted to leave the Eu not Europe. I'm sure many did vote leave to put up some wall against Europe and even hoped to float off towards America, but some people don't like where the Eu is heading and hoped Leave would bring about its downfall. They don't necessarily want to be isolated from the rest of Europe. It's not so much hypocritical of them, as self serving. Most of us don't have the opportunity. I can't get dual nationality, but if I could, I probably would.


I think Europe has more chance united than fighting each other , I do not like the idea of EU and UK undercutting each other.

The threat of rising tigers was known for long time now and one of the good reasons why EU exists and expanded.
Considering the attitude to environment the world domination of Asian economies might be quite short lived - only intelligent robots will survive. 
Scary thought also if you think about human rights , workers' rights.

Generally in comparison with Asian young people Europeans appear quite lazy and demanding. 
We are spoilt and unless we rise our efficiency how we can compete?

Not mention aging population etc...


----------



## Elles

Hmmmm.

https://www.business.hsbc.com/china...g-green?cid=HBEU:Gr:P1:XX:01:1707:001:bri2017


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## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> This interesting lecture is from before the referendum. It's not about Brexit, we hadn't been given a vote yet, but more about where the world and the Eu is heading, economically and politically. It's a long one and there are more recent lectures, but I found this one particularly interesting, because it was before the referendum. It has some relevance today, given Dyson's recent decision.
> 
> https://youtube.com/watch?v=MEvjF8eaGfQ
> 
> *Ref brexiteers looking for dual nationality. We voted to leave the Eu not Europe. I'm sure many did vote leave to put up some wall against Europe and even hoped to float off towards America, but some people don't like where the Eu is heading and hoped Leave would bring about its downfall. They don't necessarily want to be isolated from the rest of Europe. It's not so much hypocritical of them, as self serving. Most of us don't have the opportunity. I can't get dual nationality, but if I could, I probably would.*


*
*
As an expat of long standing I could, had I so wished, had a French, or South African and now a Hungarian passport in addition to my UK one. It's something I've never considered doing simply because I was born British and that's what I am and no passport from another country is going to alter that fact.

I belong to several expat forums covering nearly every EU country as well as the rest of the world and as far as taking out dual nationality from what I can see there seems to be very little interest in doing so. One thing that is noticeable is the number of Brits who are still going ahead with their plans to retire to Hungary within the next couple of years.


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## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> One thing that is noticeable is the number of Brits who are still going ahead with their plans to retire to Hungary within the next couple of years.


Personally speaking, I think anyone planning such a move post Brexit would be mad to do so until they know exactly where they stand and how things will be over the next few years, especially with a British only passport.


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## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Personally speaking, I think anyone planning such a move post Brexit would be mad to do so until they know exactly where they stand and how things will be over the next few years, especially with a British only passport.


Considering how things in Britain might turn out .. I would understand!!!

Makes me think if not to retire ( still many years to go) in EU...though my reasons are more prosaic... I want a garden, impossible in Gibraltar.


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## KittenKong

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/10/23/trans_iberian/1540304262_501829.html


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## MollySmith

An interesting view on voting and why some folk don't apparently
https://www.filmsforaction.org/arti...nternalized-the-ideology-of-their-oppressors/


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## KittenKong

Perhaps Theresa May will get her Falklands moment after all?

Thanks to the media, the war saved Thatcher's premiership which was probably more unpopular than May's is before hand.

Would've been a different matter had the Falklands happened under Tony Blair though.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...u-support-of-uk-treaties-20181026-p50c2f.html


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## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps Theresa May will get her Falklands moment after all?
> 
> Thanks to the media, the war saved Thatcher's premiership which was probably more unpopular than May's is before hand.
> 
> Would've been a different matter had the Falklands happened under Tony Blair though.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...u-support-of-uk-treaties-20181026-p50c2f.html
> 
> View attachment 373583
> View attachment 373585
> View attachment 373587


I'm surprised Argentina didn't make an official complaint wrt the WTO schedules, like Russia did.

(Assuming that they didn't, but I didn't read anywhere that they had.)


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I'm surprised Argentina didn't make an official complaint wrt the WTO schedules, like Russia did.
> 
> (Assuming that they didn't, but I didn't read anywhere that they had.)


If I were them, for maximum impact I'd wait until the Russian objection (and any others) had mainly run its (their) course. The longer things drag on, the more pressure there will be on our government to get something - _anything_ - sorted...

That is, of course, assuming Trump and his USA cronies stop blocking the appointment of WTO dispute judges, or (if I understand things correctly) after early net year there will be no functional dispute resolution mechanism in the WTO anyway, so us and other small fry countries will no longer be assured of a relativelyy level playing field with the Big Boys anyway as we'll have no-one to complain to. The way Trump's attitude works, I wouldn't put it past him to say he'll consider allowing an appointment only after we make massive promises regarding future trade deals, such as lowering food standards and environmental protections, allowing US companies free access to the NHS etc.


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## Arnie83

From the Beeb:

*Brexit: French officials dismiss UK fears of Calais 'go-slow'*

French officials have rejected suggestions they could resort to a "go-slow" policy at the port of Calais if there is no Brexit deal.

The UK's Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab warned on Thursday of major disruption in a "worse case scenario", which might force firms to use other ports.

But Xavier Bertrand, president of the Hauts-de-France region, said ensuring "fluidity" of trade was essential.​
Apparently Raab suggested that:

"We also need to prepare for the worst case scenario where the authorities at Calais are deliberately directing a go-slow approach by supporting a diversion of the flow to more amenable ports in other countries."​
But the French said it was important to minimise delays, and called Project Fear by Tory Brexiteers.

The French response strikes me as being the more sensible of those two, since if there are going to be checks at the border that don't currently happen - and there are - we need to be wary of Project Over-Optimism as well. 2 minutes to glance at the paperwork of 3000 trucks a day still adds up to a lot of minutes!


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## Elles

Yep, like I said, if you watch or read interviews with the Europeans instead of our own sensationalist ‘could do’ ‘maybe’ ‘might happen’ they are far more sensible.


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## KittenKong

I don't know what's worse. The ridiculous promises of the Vote Leave campaign or this self promotion of their disastrous Universal Credit policy.

Are they for real?









Meanwhile, "Sir" Philip Green keeps his knighthood.....


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## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Meanwhile, "Sir" Philip Green keeps his knighthood.....


Probably fair until he's actually found guilty of something. (Not that I'd have given him one in the first place.)


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## noushka05

*John Dean*‏ @RealJohnDean Oct 25
We need to talk about molybdenum. How one small molecule highlights the complexitiy and absurdity of a no-deal Brexit.
My latest in @WMNNews @NHSvBrexit @Scientists4EU @NHAparty


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## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *John Dean*‏ @RealJohnDean Oct 25
> We need to talk about molybdenum. How one small molecule highlights the complexitiy and absurdity of a no-deal Brexit.
> My latest in @WMNNews @NHSvBrexit @Scientists4EU @NHAparty


I hope, and trust, that sensible politicians - if that isn't an oxymoron these days - will ensure that this disruption does not happen to endanger lives. But, at risk of being provocative, I would challenge those who said they knew exactly what they voted for back in June 2016. Because not only would they not have taken the implications for Euratom into account, but they almost certainly had never even heard of it, any more than I had. For me it's another piece of evidence that "Is this what you wanted?" is a sensible question to put to the people, and not an assault on democracy.


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## KittenKong

Unbelievable. They'll be stopping non-Tory voters from voting next.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ean-parliament-mep-conservative-a8603011.html


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## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Probably fair until he's actually found guilty of something. (Not that I'd have given him one in the first place.)


I remember it was reported Mr Green could've been stripped of his knighthood following the BHS fiasco? Nothing came of that.


----------



## Arnie83

Oh dear.

*Nearly half of the public still believes that the NHS will benefit from £350m each week after the UK has left the European Union.*

The research - carried out by King's College London using the pollster Ipsos MORI - found that a majority of voters (42%) believed the claim to still be true than not. Just 36% believed it to be false, while 22% were unsure.

Researchers have concluded despite attempts to debunk the myth, it has had little impact on those that still believe the health service will benefit after Brexit.​
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...-voters-still-believe-lie-about-nhs-1-5754245

One reason why I think, even if there is a public vote on the deal, the result may well be the same. People don't seem to be any more conversant with the facts than they were last time, so populist lies will still be far too effective.


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## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> *Nearly half of the public still believes that the NHS will benefit from £350m each week after the UK has left the European Union.*
> 
> The research - carried out by King's College London using the pollster Ipsos MORI - found that a majority of voters (42%) believed the claim to still be true than not. Just 36% believed it to be false, while 22% were unsure.
> 
> Researchers have concluded despite attempts to debunk the myth, it has had little impact on those that still believe the health service will benefit after Brexit.​
> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...-voters-still-believe-lie-about-nhs-1-5754245
> 
> One reason why I think, even if there is a public vote on the deal, the result may well be the same. People don't seem to be any more conversant with the facts than they were last time, so populist lies will still be far too effective.


Incredible isn't it. I know someone who still believes in the Turkey about to join myth, yet does recognise the Tories are the party for the rich, which is something I suppose.

A PV is a risk of course, but what's the alternative? The UK leaves the EU either on Theresa May's terms or no deal without one anyway.

At least those who did vote leave again will have be warned of stockpiling and job losses, something the useless remain campaign never did in 2016 let alone anyone else.

If they choose to dismiss these as, "Project Fear" well let them. I won't have any sympathy for those leave voters who lose their jobs etc. should leave win a PV.


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## Elles

How is 42%, half and a majority?


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## Elles

Anyway, people who lost their jobs, pensions, homes and health over the past few years, with austerity, recessions, frauds and bank crashes have probably seen countries outside of the Eu pick themselves up. The Eu has been warned that the peasants are revolting and did nothing about it. Europe wide. The banks were seen to get away with it, on public money. 

You say there won’t be more money for the nhs outside of the Eu, it’s unlikely there’ll be more inside the Eu either. Outside of it is still an unknown unfortunately, so there’s no competition. Could be doom and gloom, but it can’t be guaranteed. It’s still all could be maybes and unless there are positives I’d guess any campaign is probably doomed to fail. 

I’m no more a prophet than anyone else though. Who knows. If people want the government to waste millions on another go and particularly if the government want it, I expect they’ll waste millions on another go. It will give them something extra to blame for there being no money left in the pot.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> You say there won't be more money for the nhs outside of the Eu, it's unlikely there'll be more inside the Eu either.


Likely correct but that doesn't take away from the fact that a huge lie was told. The whole thing was summed up by a comedian I went to see last night - there's no point in a second referendum because those who voted on facts or long held beliefs won't change their minds and those who voted on spin or outright lies are still gullible enough to believe any old rubbish fed to them.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> How is 42%, half and a majority?


That's why I quoted the 'nearly' half line!

And a majority in First Past the Post.

:Smuggrin


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Anyway, people who lost their jobs, pensions, homes and health over the past few years, with austerity, recessions, frauds and bank crashes have probably seen countries outside of the Eu pick themselves up. The Eu has been warned that the peasants are revolting and did nothing about it. Europe wide. The banks were seen to get away with it, on public money.
> 
> You say there won't be more money for the nhs outside of the Eu, it's unlikely there'll be more inside the Eu either. Outside of it is still an unknown unfortunately, so there's no competition. Could be doom and gloom, but it can't be guaranteed. It's still all could be maybes and unless there are positives I'd guess any campaign is probably doomed to fail.
> 
> I'm no more a prophet than anyone else though. Who knows. If people want the government to waste millions on another go and particularly if the government want it, I expect they'll waste millions on another go. It will give them something extra to blame for there being no money left in the pot.


Sorry, Elles, but I'm going to get really boring through repetition ...

If the costs of business rise, then the expansion of the economy slows down, tax revenue doesn't rise as quickly as it otherwise would, and the amount of money that the government can spend on services is lower than it would otherwise be. That's not prophecy, it's common sense.

Whatever deal we leave with, business costs will rise, and public spending will be lower than had we stayed. The only question is how much costs will rise, and that depends on the deal or the no deal.

The potential gains from 'new' trade deals come nowhere near the losses. But I won't bore you with the economics behind that again.


----------



## Elles

Like I said, people who lost jobs, health, pensions etc through recent crashes, frauds and austerity, probably can’t see it. If we stay in the Eu we’ll get more of the same and the same hasn’t felt that great to many people. If it had, they wouldn’t have voted to leave. They want to take a chance that there’s something better, don’t they. 

There are people far more expert than I am, who saw it coming and understand why. Not only that, experts who offered potential solutions, but the world kept turning, the juggernaut kept rolling on and here we are.

Plus it’s not quite as simple as you say. I’m not sure you’re taking into account exports, the internet, currency and the changes to immigration and even the Eu and Europe itself, that we don’t know yet. On top of that, any government, or agreement is short term. It could be totally different in a very short time imo.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Like I said, people who lost jobs, health, pensions etc through recent crashes, frauds and austerity, probably can't see it. If we stay in the Eu we'll get more of the same and the same hasn't felt that great to many people. If it had, they wouldn't have voted to leave. They want to take a chance that there's something better, don't they.
> 
> There are people far more expert than I am, who saw it coming and understand why. Not only that, experts who offered potential solutions, but the world kept turning, the juggernaut kept rolling on and here we are.
> 
> Plus it's not quite as simple as you say. I'm not sure you're taking into account exports, the internet, currency and the changes to immigration and even the Eu and Europe itself, that we don't know yet. On top of that, any government, or agreement is short term. It could be totally different in a very short time imo.


I think you're absolutely right, in that a lot of people voted for the possibility of change, rejecting government policies that showed no signs of working for them, and (therefore?) government advice that staying in would be better.

And it definitely isn't as simple as "costs go up, growth goes down". The reason I keep saying that is because it's the one dead cert fact in all this. We are negotiating from a position of completely frictionless trade to one that has more friction, and friction increases costs.

There is an awful lot of other stuff that can affect the performance of the economy, but that is pretty much all subject to speculation, which a lot of people - including posters on here - don't accept as a basis for current action. (Though a lot reject predictions as inaccurate, yet seem happy to believe that the future will prove better than those predictions rather than worse.)

Very briefly (I'll try, honestly); we pretty much know that the pound will depreciate, like it did in June 2016 (though how much? dunno). That will make exports cheaper - good - but imports more expensive - bad. Imported inflation will rise - how much? - and maybe interest rates will rise to stop it - bad? - but wages may also rise in response - good? - and especially if migration reduces the supply of labour - good / bad? Government policy is pretty much a choice between expansion (borrowing / taxation) or contraction (austerity) and who knows what will happen there.

But as you say, all that leaves the final plus / minus effect as largely guesswork. I would, gloomily, suggest that business will be nervous and uncertain, so in the short term the effects are more likely to be on the downside than the up. But there are no hard and fast facts on which to base predictions *except *that business costs will rise.

If people really do believe that Brexit will be good for the UK economy, then that belief is either faith-based or simple optimism.


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> Not really that simple, though, is it? Even if they had all voted Lib Dem, if they were in a Labour or Conservative stronghold, it wouldn't make much of a difference in First Past The Post. You also have the legacy of the *Lib Dems getting in to bed with Labour*, which pretty much sunk them as a party and may well take a generation or two to recover from.
> 
> Oddly enough, I overheard a discussion today which educated me on how much of our clean water/effluent discharge regulations are EU driven. I'm sure i'm no the only one to remember when rivers were a lot less wildlife friendly than they currently are...


(you mean lib dems getting into bed with tories, Jesthar? )

I know we used to be called the dirty man of Europe but until just prior to the referendum I had no idea how much we owe the EU for improving our standards. EU directives protect our environment including our water quality and air quality. Do brexit supporters really believe the brextremists, who's main concern is ridding us of these regulations, will protect & maintain these standards once we leave?



Elles said:


> It wouldn't be that simple, no. However my main point was that before the referendum people who knew UKIP wouldn't get into power and who didn't agree with many of their policies or sentiments, voted for them anyway, because leaving the Eu was their main priority. If leaving the Eu is as disastrous as is being, and has been, touted, staying in the Eu should have been the main priority for those voters who think that way. Stuff Labour's promises, or your support for Conservative policies, vote for the party who offered a second vote and to remain in the Eu. Whether that's the Green Party, or Lib Dems. I really don't understand why not. No wonder Labour and Conservative alike, still believe that leaving the Eu is the only way forward. It's what the majority of those who have an opinion appear to have voted for twice now.
> 
> Even if a swing towards a 'remain' party, or mp or two hadn't brought about a change in actual government, it would have made a point and could have made a difference. Jmho


Progressive candidates from one party were stepping aside in marginal seats to allow a progressive candidate from another party the best chance of beating tory candidates. Stopping May getting her mandate for her hard brexit was priority. And now the brextremists disingenuously claim they have a mandate for the hardest brexit of all - worse still no deal!

I have no green candidate to vote for & would never forgive the lib dems for their complicity in enabling the badger cull & austerity - to stop the badger cull *alone* I would have voted labour.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Anyway, people who lost their jobs, pensions, homes and health over the past few years, with austerity, recessions, frauds and bank crashes have probably seen countries outside of the Eu pick themselves up. The Eu has been warned that the peasants are revolting and did nothing about it. Europe wide. The banks were seen to get away with it, on public money.
> 
> You say there won't be more money for the nhs outside of the Eu, it's unlikely there'll be more inside the Eu either. Outside of it is still an unknown unfortunately, so there's no competition. Could be doom and gloom, but it can't be guaranteed. It's still all could be maybes and unless there are positives I'd guess any campaign is probably doomed to fail.
> 
> I'm no more a prophet than anyone else though. Who knows. If people want the government to waste millions on another go and particularly if the government want it, I expect they'll waste millions on another go. It will give them something extra to blame for there being no money left in the pot.


We know any kind of brexit will be bad for the NHS, hard brexit and no deal will be 'catastrophic'. We were warned.



Elles said:


> Like I said, people who lost jobs, health, pensions etc through recent crashes, frauds and austerity, probably can't see it. I*f we stay in the Eu we'll get more of the same and the same hasn't felt that great to many people*. If it had, they wouldn't have voted to leave. They want to take a chance that there's something better, don't they.
> 
> There are people far more expert than I am, who saw it coming and understand why. Not only that, experts who offered potential solutions, but the world kept turning, the juggernaut kept rolling on and here we are.
> 
> Plus it's not quite as simple as you say. I'm not sure you're taking into account exports, the internet, currency and the changes to immigration and even the Eu and Europe itself, that we don't know yet. On top of that, any government, or agreement is short term. It could be totally different in a very short time imo.


Yes austerity was one of the main contributors to the leave vote but thats because the shysters in government who created the misery, & their mates in the tory press used the EU as scapegoat. So how will leaving the EU help us? Just wait until the disaster capitalist move in - it will make austerity seem like a walk in the park

*Had austerity not happened, Leave support could have been up to 10% lower*
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

*Tory Austerity And Welfare Cuts Like Bedroom Tax Directly Caused Brexit, New Study Finds*
*Leave vote linked to areas hit hardest by George Osborne's cuts*

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...y-of-warwick-2018_uk_5b632558e4b0fd5c73d73693

_
There's a direct link between the Leave vote in the EU referendum and areas that suffered the worst Tory austerity cuts. Yet, due to propaganda from influential Brexiters and Brexit supporting media, voters most affected by Tory austerity blamed the EU and immigration instead









_


----------



## noushka05

Heres a timely tweet.

_Disastrous NoDeal Brexit will amplify the worst aspects of Austerity.Homelessness, poverty, personal debt & bankrupt councils.

Tighten your belts, this is going to be tough. Philip Hammond & the Tories have screwed the UK & are going to blame everyone but themselves! #Marr __#R_idge


----------



## noushka05

I don't recognise my country anymore. I'm sure a lot of Americans are feeling the same about theirs.

*Jonathan Lis*‏ @jonlis1 Oct 26
Jonathan Lis Retweeted Rohit Kachroo
*
What a small, sad country we've become*

*Rohit Kachroo*‏Verified account @RohitKachrooITV
ITV News filmmaker whose "extraordinary eyewitness journalism" from Ghouta is nominated for one of the industry's top awards, is barred from the UK so can't
attend next week's ceremony. Officials think there's a chance he won't leave (there's no chance)
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/syrian-itv-reporter-denied-visa-j3cjrb5gh

...............


----------



## Elles

It wasn’t just the U.K. and that’s a no brainer. We don’t need new research to point out that happy wealthy people are more likely to vote to maintain the status quo, than unhappy poor people. I can’t imagine real experts tweeting memes.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It wasn't just the U.K. and that's a no brainer. We don't need new research to point out that happy wealthy people are more likely to vote to maintain the status quo, than unhappy poor people. I can't imagine real experts tweeting memes.


What wasnt just the UK? I never said that particular tweet was from an expert - doesnt stop it being accurate though


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> What wasnt just the UK? I never said that particular tweet was from an expert - doesnt stop it being accurate though


Accurate by your reckoning maybe, but not necessarily mine!

Strange isn't it that if I reply to a thread I'm dismissed as a nobody who doesn't know what they're talking about, but a tweet from someone most of us don't know from Adam is considered accurate and eminently credible!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Accurate by your reckoning maybe, but not necessarily mine!
> 
> Strange isn't it that if I reply to a thread I'm dismissed as a nobody who doesn't know what they're talking about, but a tweet from someone most of us don't know from Adam is considered accurate and eminently credible!


What exactly do you dispute in regards to that tweet?


----------



## Elles

Austerity and the reasons for it were not U.K. only. The Eu is also a fan of austerity and imposed it on Greece. The Eu is also politicians. Given the increase in populism world wide, including Europe, the Eu can’t help but be affected by it. Don’t forget we had Nigel Farage MEP. What’s to say that other countries don’t vote in their version?

The tweet and meme says ‘When’ not ‘If’ and is purely speculative. Nothing accurate about it.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> What exactly do you dispute in regards to that tweet?


Seeing that you've now removed the original tweet from Jonathon Lis on #3005 there's no point in my replying!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Seeing that you've now removed the original tweet from Jonathon Lis on #3005 there's no point in my replying!


I haven't removed anything. Jonathans tweet is still there.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Austerity and the reasons for it were not U.K. only. The Eu is also a fan of austerity and imposed it on Greece. The Eu is also politicians. Given the increase in populism world wide, including Europe, the Eu can't help but be affected by it. Don't forget we had Nigel Farage MEP. What's to say that other countries don't vote in their version?
> 
> The tweet and meme says 'When' not 'If' and is purely speculative. Nothing accurate about it.


The EU did not impose austerity on us - the tories in coalition with the lib dems did. It was a political choice by the tories to transfer public money into private pockets at the expense of the poorest & public services. So can you explain how leaving the EU will help us?? We already know we're going to have austerity on steroids when we leave - and the tories will just say, well brexit was the will of the people. I can hear them now......

We're heading for hard brexit or no deal - both = severe austerity for this country. If the brextremists get their way you will find that tweet/meme to be extremely accurate.


----------



## Elles

No, the Eu didn't impose austerity on us, I didn't say it did. It didn't need to, that was already the political path laid out for recovery after the global crash. It is a path the Eu are in favour of I believe. It's also one thought unnecessary, damaging and ineffective by some political parties and economists and thought to have in a major part led to the rise in populism globally, including in Europe, where little was done to address the concerns of the less well off. The Eu forced austerity on Greece as part of their agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/21/greece-europe-eu-austerity


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I haven't removed anything. Jonathans tweet is still there.


But not the picture or what he actually tweeted.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> But not the picture or what he actually tweeted.


I haven't altered this post (below). The tweet stands exactly as I posted it, you can see in the corner of the post I havent edited it or it would say I had, so have no idea why you would keep accusing me of doing so.

I have absolutely no idea which picture you're referring to. What I posted was what he actually tweeted. Here it is on twitter >>

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1055719007922384896
And here is the rest of Jonathans tweets on that thread. (and I totally relate to his feelings! We are going down the same path as the country you now live in. Grim)
_
It's remarkable how frightened and suspicious we are of people who still, even now, want to come to Britain. Perhaps it's old-fashioned snobbery and we just assume they have no taste

Seriously though. It's genuinely weird how hostile we are to people who want to visit, or worse still, live in our country. If we really loved and were proud of Britain we would want to show it off and share it

What kind of mentality instinctively mistrusts or loathes people who want to visit us, live among us, contribute to our surroundings & wellbeing? It's like a shopkeeper who gets mortally offended by paying customers. It means we're attractive and doing well. It's. A. Compliment!

I wonder if immigration-haters would prefer it if nobody wanted to come and live here. If our economy sank. If our public services decayed. If our reputation shattered. Would it be an improvement? Would it mean more cake for us, less we'd have to share? We can be better. We must._



noushka05 said:


> I don't recognise my country anymore. I'm sure a lot of Americans are feeling the same about theirs.
> 
> *Jonathan Lis*‏ @jonlis1 Oct 26
> Jonathan Lis Retweeted Rohit Kachroo
> *
> What a small, sad country we've become*
> 
> *Rohit Kachroo*‏Verified account @RohitKachrooITV
> ITV News filmmaker whose "extraordinary eyewitness journalism" from Ghouta is nominated for one of the industry's top awards, is barred from the UK so can't
> attend next week's ceremony. Officials think there's a chance he won't leave (there's no chance)
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/syrian-itv-reporter-denied-visa-j3cjrb5gh
> 
> ...............





Elles said:


> No, the Eu didn't impose austerity on us, I didn't say it did. It didn't need to, that was already the political path laid out for recovery after the global crash. It is a path the Eu are in favour of I believe. It's also one thought unnecessary, damaging and ineffective by some political parties and economists and thought to have in a major part led to the rise in populism globally, including in Europe, where little was done to address the concerns of the less well off. The Eu forced austerity on Greece as part of their agreement.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/21/greece-europe-eu-austerity


Sentences like the one below led me to believe you thought the EU was responsible for austerity here & that by staying in the EU we'll get more of the same. I'm totally confused


Elles said:


> If we stay in the Eu we'll get more of the same and the same hasn't felt that great to many people.


....


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Sentences like the one below led me to believe you thought the EU was responsible for austerity here & that by staying in the EU we'll get more of the same. I'm totally confused





Elles said:


> If we stay in the Eu we'll get more of the same and the same hasn't felt that great to many people.


I'm not trying to speak for @Elles but I think some people were thinking that after 6 years of austerity any change was better than no change even if they didn't necessarily identify a (non-existent) causal link between the two.


----------



## Arnie83

Rees-Mogg on Sky News:

"I think we should be making announcements now about how we would deal on World Trade Organisation terms. Why don't we get rid of all tariffs on goods that we don't produce in this country on 29 March, 2019 to show we're open to the world? That we're going to be a global nation rather than a peripheral European nation."​
And _I_ think my least favourite Moggie is making populist suggestions that he knows are not only impossible in the timeframe he's talking about, but are vastly and probably fatally undefined, fraught with danger for the UK economy, and don't solve problems like the Irish border.

But since when has that sort of thing bothered mulit-millionaire JR-M so long as his fortune is safely out of the country?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-worse-off-damning-poll-reveals-a3970186.html


----------



## kimthecat

Budget today .


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Budget today .


I hope they stop punishing the poor with Universal Credit and put it on hold, but then again looking at Sky News it is believed that Hammond is going to give money to boost the high street shops and fix pot holes from what I read this morning? I also read he is planning to announce an emergency budget for a no deal Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 373950
> 
> View attachment 373952
> 
> View attachment 373953
> 
> View attachment 373954
> 
> View attachment 373951


Well, they gave Theresa May an inch, she would take a mile. They were warned.

Perhaps she'll not only declare the House of Lords obsolete, but Parliament too.



stockwellcat. said:


> I hope they stop punishing the poor with Universal Credit and put it on hold, but then again looking at Sky News it is believed that Hammond is going to give money to boost the high street shops and fix pot holes from what I read this morning? I also read he is planning to announce an emergency budget for a no deal Brexit.


No they won't just as Thatcher didn't with the Poll Tax when she was still PM.

They're even running a Facebook campaign in the support of UC. I uploaded a screenshot of it a few posts back.

Can we expect another rise in VAT in the budget?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-worse-off-damning-poll-reveals-a3970186.html
> 
> View attachment 373947
> View attachment 373948
> View attachment 373949


Given the subjective nature of "good" I guess the question equates to "Do you think she's going to deliver what you want."

Not sure where it gets us, to be honest, except that not many people are going to be happy at the end of this; assuming there _is_ an end!


----------



## Arnie83

*Special 50p coin expected to mark Brexit*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46016359

I suppose I should shrug this off because there are rather more important things to worry about than a daft coin, but I do find myself wondering how the government is hoping to bring the country together by a gesture that basically screams "In your face, 48% losers!"

It's unnecessary and crass, and will only exacerbate the true state of the nation, as indicated by the Sun claiming it as a 'major victory'.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Can we expect another rise in VAT in the budget?


It's mentioned as a possibility in the IFS 'Green Budget' if anyone wants a read.

They reckon putting 1 percentage point on either income tax, NICs or VAT will yield a similar increase in tax revenue.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13508


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ervative-leadership-bid-theresa-may?CMP=fb_gu


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ervative-leadership-bid-theresa-may?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> View attachment 373965


"Things need to change" ?

I don't suppose she was more specific, was she?

Still don't see it happening any time soon.


----------



## KittenKong

I know this remains Labour policy but this leaflet sent by our local Labour party today left me fuming!

By the feel of the contents of the leaflet I get the impression the MP is a Brexiter.

She will not be getting my vote.


----------



## Elles

Labour aren’t promising much are they? Not sure how the Eu will feel about the last one.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Labour aren't promising much are they? Not sure how the Eu will feel about the last one.


Indeed. No better than the Tories when it comes to cherry picking!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I know this remains Labour policy but this leaflet sent by our local Labour party today left me fuming!
> 
> By the feel of the contents of the leaflet I get the impression the MP is a Brexiter.
> 
> She will not be getting my vote.
> 
> View attachment 373969
> View attachment 373970


It's easy being in Opposition!


----------



## MilleD

So was the 50p story fake? Or did I miss it being mentioned?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not trying to speak for @Elles but I think some people were thinking that after 6 years of austerity any change was better than no change even if they didn't necessarily identify a (non-existent) causal link between the two.


Oh I agree, I'm sure this is the reason many people did vote to leave. What I find totally baffling then, is people who KNOW the tories are responsible for our collapsing NHS, public services, the dismantling of the welfare state & all the misery, suffering and deaths they are responsible for, arguing the point we should leave the EU and so playing into the hands of the very people who deliberately created all this hardship.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 7h7 hours ago

BREXIT latest:

DOWNSIDE: 
No food 
No medicine 
Collapse of UK manufacturing & farming 
NI peace in danger 
Countless job losses 
NHS & social care in meltdown 
Kent = lorry park 
Everyone except Brexit elite getting poorer

UPSIDE: 
Blue passport 
Brexit 50p

CONCLUSION: Worth it

.........................................


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I know this remains Labour policy but this leaflet sent by our local Labour party today left me fuming!
> 
> By the feel of the contents of the leaflet I get the impression the MP is a Brexiter.
> 
> She will not be getting my vote.
> 
> View attachment 373969
> View attachment 373970


I disagree KK. I'd say your MP was a remainer rather than a brexiteer. The mention of the six tests is the give away. I really like & respect Sunny Hundal (a staunch remainer), this article by him is worth a read KK - https://www.opendemocracy.net/sunny...t-brexit-their-critics-are-ignoring-all-clues


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 7h7 hours ago
> 
> BREXIT latest:
> 
> DOWNSIDE:
> No food
> No medicine
> Collapse of UK manufacturing & farming
> NI peace in danger
> Countless job losses
> NHS & social care in meltdown
> Kent = lorry park
> Everyone except Brexit elite getting poorer
> 
> UPSIDE:
> Blue passport
> Brexit 50p
> 
> CONCLUSION: Worth it
> 
> .........................................


You are such a little ray of light :Kiss


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> So was the 50p story fake? Or did I miss it being mentioned?


Come to think of it, I didn't hear it mentioned.


----------



## havoc

50p coin not necessary - there's a royal baby due at just the right time to keep the masses happy.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You are such a little ray of light :Kiss


Thank you. Its a gift I've been blessed with


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I disagree KK. I'd say your MP was a remainer rather than a brexiteer. The mention of the six tests is the give away. I really like & respect Sunny Hundal (a staunch remainer), this article by him is worth a read KK - https://www.opendemocracy.net/sunny...t-brexit-their-critics-are-ignoring-all-clues


I don't know. It's something I'll have to ask her. The rest of the four page A4 brochure mentioned the new blue passports should be produced locally and celebrating 70 years of the NHS.

Nothing about the PV demo nor cheating from the leave campaign.

As a typical Labour supporter I was furious there was no mention of that and them ignoring half the population who didn't vote for Brexit.

No excuses. If Labour don't start becoming a true opposition soon they are finished. Corbyn and co won't be the one's suffering.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So was the 50p story fake? Or did I miss it being mentioned?


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> So was the 50p story fake? Or did I miss it being mentioned?


I have just seen it scrolling across the BBC News 24 channel, so I guess it was either hidden in the red book and not mentioned, or I missed it. Looks like it is real though.

The trouble is, what do I do by way of registering my disapproval. If I send Philip Hammond every Brexit 50p piece I happen to get in change, that will probably be exactly what he wants!!


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I have just seen it scrolling across the BBC News 24 channel, so I guess it was either hidden in the red book and not mentioned, or I missed it. Looks like it is real though.
> 
> The trouble is, what do I do by way of registering my disapproval. If I send Philip Hammond every Brexit 50p piece I happen to get in change, that will probably be exactly what he wants!!


It could be how he is planning to fund this budget.

I'm an accountant and I really can't see how all that adds up!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I don't know. It's something I'll have to ask her. The rest of the four page A4 brochure mentioned the new blue passports should be produced locally and celebrating 70 years of the NHS.
> 
> Nothing about the PV demo nor cheating from the leave campaign.
> 
> As a typical Labour supporter I was furious there was no mention of that and them ignoring half the population who didn't vote for Brexit.
> 
> No excuses. If Labour don't start becoming a true opposition soon they are finished. Corbyn and co won't be the one's suffering.


I would speak to her KK. Imo one of the reasons this country is in such a mess is down to 'new labour'. By adopting Thatcherism its new labour who posed no real opposition to the tories. Thats why they were labelled 'torylight' Same goes for the democrats in the USA. They too shifted to the right offering no real alternative when they adopted neoliberalism. Trump is the result of that. Labour under Corbyn are finished anyway. Corbyn has every single powerful wealthy interest group against him, most of the MSM. Right wingers in his own party undermining since he became leader. It isnt a level playing field so I cant see him ever getting into power.


----------



## noushka05

*Emily Thornberry*‏Verified account @EmilyThornberry 16h16 hours ago
There we are - tax cuts for the rich and they are coming earlier. #Budget2018

*ResolutionFoundation*‏Verified account @resfoundation 15h15 hours ago
Who gains most from the Chancellor's income tax cuts next year? The richest tenth of households are overwhelmingly the biggest winners


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Emily Thornberry*‏Verified account @EmilyThornberry 16h16 hours ago
> There we are - tax cuts for the rich and they are coming earlier. #Budget2018
> 
> *ResolutionFoundation*‏Verified account @resfoundation 15h15 hours ago
> Who gains most from the Chancellor's income tax cuts next year? The richest tenth of households are overwhelmingly the biggest winners


That top decile still pays far more into the tax coffers though. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I would speak to her KK. Imo one of the reasons this country is in such a mess is down to 'new labour'. By adopting Thatcherism its new labour who posed no real opposition to the tories. Thats why they were labelled 'torylight' Same goes for the democrats in the USA. They too shifted to the right offering no real alternative when they adopted neoliberalism. Trump is the result of that. Labour under Corbyn are finished anyway. Corbyn has every single powerful wealthy interest group against him, most of the MSM. Right wingers in his own party undermining since he became leader. It isnt a level playing field so I cant see him ever getting into power.


I've written to her and will await the reply.

I agree re Corbyn but it must be said he's also brought some of it on himself having watched him in interviews. While I was impressed during the 2017 election campaign he's turned out to be a huge disappointment re his opposition to a PV. It's as if he doesn't really care about winning.

Think at the end of the day most politicians are careerists.

Someone like David Lammy should be leading the Labour Party.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, it seems they are suggestions of persons actually worse than Theresa May after all such as this worrying tweet shared by the 48% FB page.

Tommy Robinson for PM. Really???


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374028
> View attachment 374029


I have to say there's quite a few bits of that I would disagree with, and others that seem to stretch the truth in order to make them fit the narrative. But I don't think I'll take the thread off on a tangent by doing so.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well, it seems they are suggestions of persons actually worse than Theresa May after all such as this worrying tweet shared by the 48% FB page.
> 
> Tommy Robinson for PM. Really???
> View attachment 374045


It's a completely stupid idea of course, but I must admit the bit that tickles my sense of humour is that "Tommy Robinson" is a pseudonym, and "Herman Mittelholzer" isn't!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> That top decile still pays far more into the tax coffers though. You can't have it both ways.


Huge levels of inequality in the UK were revealed in a detailed assessment that also showed the richest five per cent of people in the country own 44 per cent of all wealth. That is utterly obscene imo. Tax cuts for the wealthiest just makes the rich richer & increases income & wealth inequality This gross inequality is destroying not only the fabric of our society but our living planet. Trickle down is a fraud - you only have to look at the state this country is in to see that. The super wealthy hoard money in offshore accounts & squander it on their extravagant lifestyles. Tax cuts for the wealthiest does not benefit society & it is literally destroying our living planet. 


KittenKong said:


> I've written to her and will await the reply.
> 
> I agree re Corbyn but it must be said he's also brought some of it on himself having watched him in interviews. While I was impressed during the 2017 election campaign he's turned out to be a huge disappointment re his opposition to a PV. It's as if he doesn't really care about winning.
> 
> Think at the end of the day most politicians are careerists.
> 
> Someone like David Lammy should be leading the Labour Party.


 Labour are in a real fix whatever they do, in the labour stronghold where I live which voted to leave I'm not getting the sense that there has been a big shift to remain - many round here dont seem to have a clue leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for them. If Corbyn comes out vocally for a peoples vote I fear labour could be finished here & ukip would fill the void. At a time when millions of people are suffering like never before, when our NHS and public services are the very brink of collapse & we have just twelve short years to avert catastrophic climate breakdown, we desperately need a progressive government. Brexit could not have happened at a worse time in our history, its an all round disaster.

ETA I really like David Lammy - but was very disappointed he voted to extend Heathrow. I fear even he doesnt understand the urgency of tackling climate change.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Huge levels of inequality in the UK were revealed in a detailed assessment that also showed the richest five per cent of people in the country own 44 per cent of all wealth. That is utterly obscene imo. Tax cuts for the wealthiest just makes the rich richer & increases income & wealth inequality This gross inequality is destroying not only the fabric of our society but our living planet. Trickle down is a fraud - you only have to look at the state this country is in to see that. The super wealthy hoard money in offshore accounts & squander it on their extravagant lifestyles. Tax cuts for the wealthiest does not benefit society & it is literally destroying our living planet.


The very rich won't even notice those tax cuts that were announced it's absolutely a drop in the ocean.

0.6% of the adults in this country pay a quarter of the income tax revenue the treasury receives. Perhaps they don't think that's fair either.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Huge levels of inequality in the UK were revealed in a detailed assessment that also showed the richest five per cent of people in the country own 44 per cent of all wealth. That is utterly obscene imo. Tax cuts for the wealthiest just makes the rich richer & increases income & wealth inequality This gross inequality is destroying not only the fabric of our society but our living planet. Trickle down is a fraud - you only have to look at the state this country is in to see that. The super wealthy hoard money in offshore accounts & squander it on their extravagant lifestyles. Tax cuts for the wealthiest does not benefit society & it is literally destroying our living planet.
> 
> Labour are in a real fix whatever they do, in the labour stronghold where I live which voted to leave I'm not getting the sense that there has been a big shift to remain - many round here dont seem to have a clue leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for them. If Corbyn comes out vocally for a peoples vote I fear labour could be finished here & ukip would fill the void. At a time when millions of people are suffering like never before, when our NHS and public services are the very brink of collapse & we have just twelve short years to avert catastrophic climate breakdown, we desperately need a progressive government. Brexit could not have happened at a worse time in our history, its an all round disaster.
> 
> ETA I really like David Lammy - but was very disappointed he voted to extend Heathrow. I fear even he doesnt understand the urgency of tackling climate change.


Very good points about Labour's predicament, but at least in these parts where The Sun and similar papers have a very high readership most of them have deserted Corbyn anyway after believing everything written about him. Whether he supports Brexit or not is irrelevant. All I hear is, "Terrorist sympathiser" and "Communist" in these parts. The Labour leaflet I got through the letterbox yesterday made no mention of him.

Amongst those who still back Labour, I haven't heard a single person support his position on Brexit. Quite the reverse in fact.

In doing so, not only has he lost the support of Sun etc. readers but also
Labour pro EU supporters such as myself as well.

David Lammy has his faults, then so does everyone. I see he was trolled on Twitter for him voting for the Iraq war.

Not one of them criticised Theresa May and co for doing the same!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> The very rich won't even notice those tax cuts that were announced it's absolutely a drop in the ocean.
> 
> 0.6% of the adults in this country pay a quarter of the income tax revenue the treasury receives. Perhaps they don't think that's fair either.


Of course its a drop in the ocean but their greed is insatiable.

Probably because they have most of the money. Greedy people never think its fair - hence why they bankroll the tory party.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Of course its a drop in the ocean but their greed is insatiable.
> 
> Probably because they have most of the money. Greedy people never think its fair - hence why they bankroll the tory party.


You do realise that someone has to put the money in for others to take out?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Very good points about Labour's predicament, but at least in these parts where The Sun and similar papers have a very high readership most of them have deserted Corbyn anyway after believing everything written about him. Whether he supports Brexit or not is irrelevant. All I hear is, "Terrorist sympathiser" and "Communist" in these parts. The Labour leaflet I got through the letterbox yesterday made no mention of him.
> 
> Amongst those who still back Labour, I haven't heard a single person support his position on Brexit. Quite the reverse in fact.
> 
> In doing so, not only has he lost the support of Sun etc. readers but also
> Labour pro EU supporters such as myself as well.
> 
> David Lammy has his faults, then so does everyone. I see he was trolled on Twitter for him voting for the Iraq war.
> 
> Not one of them criticised Theresa May and co for doing the same!


Same in my area too in regards to Corbyn, It shows how good a tool the tory press is at brainwashing the public doesn't it?

I've heard a few prominent labour supports who I hold a lot of respect for back labours position, but most seem to be angry and frustrated. Because time is running out to save our badgers - our planet, I would vote labour whoever the leader was tbqh. Yes all have their faults as I say, I like David Lammy. 
There are a hell of a lot of hypocrites out there lol



MilleD said:


> You do realise that someone has to put the money in for others to take out?


As one of the most unequal developed countries in the world, where is this money thats taken out going to? Its certainly not going into society.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> As one of the most unequal developed countries in the world, where is this money thats taken out going to? Its certainly not going into society.


Um, quite a lot of it does.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Um, quite a lot of it does.


Errm Austerity?

You surely must be aware that while the rich have seen their wealth balloon, austerity has hammered the rest of society & created untold suffering. ripped the heart out of our public services, social care, our NHS, welfare state etc? Everything is in crisis - schools, fire-service, police. Councils going bankrupt.

We now know neoliberalism was a con to transfer wealth from the public purse into private pockets. The evidence is all around.

.


----------



## Elles

Did you read this link I posted? It's the guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/21/greece-europe-eu-austerity

People who are anti austerity and neoliberalism, and pro the Labour Party, surely must also be pro Brexit.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Errm Austerity?
> 
> You surely must be aware that while the rich have seen their wealth balloon, austerity has hammered the rest of society & created untold suffering. ripped the heart out of our public services, social care, our NHS, welfare state etc? Everything is in crisis - schools, fire-service, police. Councils going bankrupt.
> 
> We now know neoliberalism was a con to transfer wealth from the public purse into private pockets. The evidence is all around.
> 
> .


I work in local authority finance. And I can tell you that there is money there, it just isn't spent on the right things. There is waste in the system like you wouldn't believe.

At least they have finally binned PFIs. Not that they were as attractive once the rules changed on their accounting treatment.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I work in local authority finance. And I can tell you that there is money there, it just isn't spent on the right things. There is waste in the system like you wouldn't believe.
> 
> At least they have finally binned PFIs. Not that they were as attractive once the rules changed on their accounting treatment.


Our council along with others lost a lot of money when the Iceland banks collapsed . I don't know whether they got it back.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I work in local authority finance. And I can tell you that there is money there, it just isn't spent on the right things. There is waste in the system like you wouldn't believe.
> 
> At least they have finally binned PFIs. Not that they were as attractive once the rules changed on their accounting treatment.


So are you saying there has been no austerity? and council budgets haven't been slashed? .  They'll have binned PFIs in name only.


----------



## Elles

When we did computers and tech we had a couple of hospital and council contracts. The main reason we were given for them buying expensive equipment that they didn’t really need, was that if they didn’t spend this year’s budget they’d get less next year.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> So are you saying there has been no austerity? and council budgets haven't been slashed? .  They'll have binned PFIs in name only.


You know that's not what I'm saying.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You know that's not what I'm saying.


No Mille, I dont. You appeared to me to be playing down the devastating impact austerity has had on millions of people on our NHS & public services & councils. If the rich are now richer than theyve ever been - why isnt society feeling the benefit? Could it be trickle down economics is a load of [email protected]?


----------



## Elles

Maybe society is better off and we’d be even worse off without the wealthy paying taxes. The government is supposed to be addressing the ridiculously low taxes paid by companies like Facebook, which might help a bit.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> No Mille, I dont. You appeared to me to be playing down the devastating impact austerity has had on millions of people on our NHS & public services & councils. If the rich are now richer than theyve ever been - why isnt society feeling the benefit? Could it be trickle down economics is a load of [email protected]?


What I'm trying to point out is that there is a lot of money in our public services that is wasted.

I take it communism would be an ideal for you? It's not for me I'm afraid.

You need to chill a little, you'll do yourself a mischief.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> When we did computers and tech we had a couple of hospital and council contracts. The main reason we were given for them buying expensive equipment that they didn't really need, was that if they didn't spend this year's budget they'd get less next year.


Ah, yes - best explanation I ever saw of that was in a satirical IT Admin column:

*BOFH: Balancing the budget...*
*With an end-of-year purchasing frenzy*

"Got a bit of work on I see," the Boss says, peering around the large mound of cartons clogging up Mission Control.

"No, no, things are very quiet at the moment."

"So what's all this then?"

"This," I say, tapping on a carton. "is a... laptop, one of a batch of... nine, while this >tap< is a top-of-the-line workstation, one of... twelve. And those >tap< >tap< are ultraclear extra large flat panel monitors with inbuilt speakers and USB hubs."

"And you're going to install them where?"

"Nowhere," I say. "No, this is part of the annual end-of-year purchasing frenzy."

"I'm not sure I understand?"

"Of course you don't, you came from the real world. You see here, at this company, we use the *Government* model for budgeting where if you don't spend all your budget in a year you obviously didn't need it in the first place and so next year's budget is cut. If you overspend your budget the overspend gets taken from next year's budget. If you just spend all your budget in a year then that's obviously a good number and one which should be used for subsequent years."

"I... see... And your point is?"

"EVERY department pinches pennies all year and doesn't replace anything unless they really have to. Come the end of the year they all have money left over which will be taken off them by the beancounters - and worse still, removed from their budget the following year - so they rush to spend it on anything that can be purchased and delivered before the end of the year."

"Yes, but I still don't see how this has anything to do with those boxes."

"Okay, so IF the gear arrives here and gets receipted in this calendar year then the department pays for it in this year's budget - and they meet their budget target."

"Yes..."

"But if the gear is delayed and gets receipted AFTER this calendar year then it comes out of NEXT year's budget, which will be significantly lower than last years - because last year's wasn't all spent."

"You've lost me!"

"Okay, say you have a department budget of 30 grand to spend on office and IT products. You scrimp and save all year so that you've only spent 10k by the end of the year. You order 10 superduper desktops with large screens, etc, to spend the remaining 20k so that the beancounters don't cut next year's office and IT budget to 10k."

"Uh... yes," the Boss says, thinking furiously.

"So IF the gear arrives this year you get 10 flash desktops AND you get an office and IT budget of 30K next year - but if the gear doesn't get receipted until January then the beancounters will have cut your office and IT budget to 10k and you'll have a bill for 20k worth of flash machines to pay for in that calendar year."


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> What I'm trying to point out is that there is a lot of money in our public services that is wasted.
> 
> I take it communism would be an ideal for you? It's not for me I'm afraid.
> 
> You need to chill a little, you'll do yourself a mischief.


Yes I know what you're saying - Its called 'whataboutery' 

Why ever would you think I'd be in favour of communism? is it that you actually believe the only alternative to neoliberalism is communism maybe?

I am chilled ta very much:Cigar


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Ah, yes - best explanation I ever saw of that was in a satirical IT Admin column:
> 
> *BOFH: Balancing the budget...*
> *With an end-of-year purchasing frenzy*
> 
> "Got a bit of work on I see," the Boss says, peering around the large mound of cartons clogging up Mission Control.
> 
> "No, no, things are very quiet at the moment."
> 
> "So what's all this then?"
> 
> "This," I say, tapping on a carton. "is a... laptop, one of a batch of... nine, while this >tap< is a top-of-the-line workstation, one of... twelve. And those >tap< >tap< are ultraclear extra large flat panel monitors with inbuilt speakers and USB hubs."
> 
> "And you're going to install them where?"
> 
> "Nowhere," I say. "No, this is part of the annual end-of-year purchasing frenzy."
> 
> "I'm not sure I understand?"
> 
> "Of course you don't, you came from the real world. You see here, at this company, we use the *Government* model for budgeting where if you don't spend all your budget in a year you obviously didn't need it in the first place and so next year's budget is cut. If you overspend your budget the overspend gets taken from next year's budget. If you just spend all your budget in a year then that's obviously a good number and one which should be used for subsequent years."
> 
> "I... see... And your point is?"
> 
> "EVERY department pinches pennies all year and doesn't replace anything unless they really have to. Come the end of the year they all have money left over which will be taken off them by the beancounters - and worse still, removed from their budget the following year - so they rush to spend it on anything that can be purchased and delivered before the end of the year."
> 
> "Yes, but I still don't see how this has anything to do with those boxes."
> 
> "Okay, so IF the gear arrives here and gets receipted in this calendar year then the department pays for it in this year's budget - and they meet their budget target."
> 
> "Yes..."
> 
> "But if the gear is delayed and gets receipted AFTER this calendar year then it comes out of NEXT year's budget, which will be significantly lower than last years - because last year's wasn't all spent."
> 
> "You've lost me!"
> 
> "Okay, say you have a department budget of 30 grand to spend on office and IT products. You scrimp and save all year so that you've only spent 10k by the end of the year. You order 10 superduper desktops with large screens, etc, to spend the remaining 20k so that the beancounters don't cut next year's office and IT budget to 10k."
> 
> "Uh... yes," the Boss says, thinking furiously.
> 
> "So IF the gear arrives this year you get 10 flash desktops AND you get an office and IT budget of 30K next year - but if the gear doesn't get receipted until January then the beancounters will have cut your office and IT budget to 10k and you'll have a bill for 20k worth of flash machines to pay for in that calendar year."


Unfortunately, we start setting the next years budget months before the current year is over so it really isn't how it plays out. Sorry to disappoint


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Yes I know what you're saying - Its called 'whataboutery'
> 
> Why ever would you think I'd be in favour of communism? is it that you actually believe the only alternative to neoliberalism is communism maybe?
> 
> I am chilled ta very much:Cigar


So what's the answer?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> So what's the answer?


People who yearn for social justice would probably say democratic socialism is the answer. I don't think its the answer myself, but it would be million times better than what we're stuck with now & we would have more chance with a progressive government of them accepting the need for radical change to the entire economic system required to save our planet.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> People who yearn for social justice would probably say democratic socialism is the answer. I don't think its the answer myself, but it would be million times better than what we're stuck with now & we would have more chance with a progressive government of them accepting the need for radical change to the entire economic system required to save our planet.


You really think it would be a million times better???????

https://fee.org/articles/greece-pro...PT34QyyQXCCne1exoNlBcMIg6ukB8Q&_hsmi=67090288


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Yes I know what you're saying - Its called 'whataboutery'
> 
> Why ever would you think I'd be in favour of communism? is it that you actually believe the only alternative to neoliberalism is communism maybe?
> 
> I am chilled ta very much:Cigar


It is sad if they have to patronise you and belittle you just because they are running rather thin on facts and arguments.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> It is sad if they have to patronise you and belittle you just because they are running rather thin on facts and arguments.


Who's 'patronising and belittling'??

You don't think that use of 'they' is patronising I take it?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> You really think it would be a million times better???????
> 
> https://fee.org/articles/greece-prostitution-and-the-sad-consequences-of-democratic-socialism/?utm_campaign=FEE Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=67090288&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-81m8sUvmZF4ncYRMDict9vbPS7heT9Lxv1yO80vnfyNDWhI6-B_BtjzZKOyuebPT34QyyQXCCne1exoNlBcMIg6ukB8Q&_hsmi=67090288


I KNOW it would. Your reference is to a Koch brothers libertarian think tank, hardly a trustworthy source :Jawdrop Do you know who the Koch brothers are @Magyarmum ?

As you keep pointing out Greece has been hammered by austerity (a right wing doctrine  )








cheekyscrip said:


> It is sad if they have to patronise you and belittle you just because they are running rather thin on facts and arguments.


Don't worry Cheeky, I've evolved skin like a rhino - and deep down I know Mille loves me really


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-devon-46009397









Meanwhile, I wonder how much it's costing the government to feed FB advertising with this bile.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Have I missed anything?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ruled out yet again:

1) Holding another referendum
2) A General Election

This lady is sticking to her guns now.

Full steam ahead then for Brexit.

According to a Commons spokesman the MP's have no legal veto to stop Brexit and any vote in Parliament on the final deal isn't binding so the Government can just press ahead with Brexit and ignore Parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Elles

I keep pointing out that Greece has been hammered by austerity, not Magyarmum. Austerity forced upon it by the Eu.

And if you think we’re suffering and poor and would be better off with the Eu in charge, look at what it does to the poorest in its group, in comparison to how the wealthier members do from it maybe.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I keep pointing out that Greece has been hammered by austerity, not Magyarmum. Austerity forced upon it by the Eu.


 Greece created its own problems and refused to deal with them. Things like the ridiculous wages paid to comparatively unskilled public sector workers, the systems in place which allowed individuals to milk the coffers all played a part. It simply couldn't afford to carry on the way it had been. Had Greece addressed its overspending the plug would not have been pulled. We'd have been pretty miffed if we'd been expected to continue contributing to their high spending.


----------



## Elles

So it’s ok to make the poor suffer for the excesses of the wealthy in other countries, but not here?


----------



## havoc

The poor in every EU country would have suffered if the plug hadn’t been pulled. Greece had chances to help itself and put its house in order, only when it failed to do that did the EU say ‘no more’.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Don't worry Cheeky, I've evolved skin like a rhino - and deep down I know Mille loves me really


You're right, I do. I love your passion and your concern for the planet :Kiss


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 374153
> 
> 
> Ruled out yet again:
> 
> 1) Holding another referendum
> 2) A General Election
> 
> This lady is sticking to her guns now.
> 
> Full steam ahead then for Brexit.
> 
> According to a Commons spokesman the MP's have no legal veto to stop Brexit and any vote in Parliament on the final deal isn't binding so the Government can just press ahead with Brexit and ignore Parliament.


How many times did she say no early General Election the last time? We know she'll say no to a PV but a GE is another matter. They'll definitely be one before 2022 I reckon.

I think if the government settle on no deal they'll be an uproar in Parliament if she tries to silence it.



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 374154
> 
> View attachment 374155


The petition for a meaningful PV has exceeded 1m signatures!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The petition for a meaningful PV has exceeded 1m signatures!


So.

The petition to stop the second referendum has just started. This will be debated in Westminster Hall once it reaches 100,000 signatures (this morning it is at 96,412).

The petition the remainers hijacked from a leave voter reached 4 million and got rejected by MP's because it was misinterpreted by remainers.

The petition for a PV will be ignored as it is in a newspaper and not on the .gov website. It won't even get debated on.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> The poor in every EU country would have suffered if the plug hadn't been pulled. Greece had chances to help itself and put its house in order, only when it failed to do that did the EU say 'no more'.


My original question was to those who argue against austerity, but pro Eu. You're arguing pro both.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How many times did she say no early General Election the last time? We know she'll say no to a PV but a GE is another matter. They'll definitely be one before 2022 I reckon.


Hate to inform you the UK will be out of the EU by 2022.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I think if the government settle on no deal they'll be an uproar in Parliament if she tries to silence it.


But there will be nothing they can do.

Legally MP's do not have a veto and any votes on the final deal are meaningless. They cannot force TM back to the negotiating table either legally.









This was also reported in the Independent, Reddit, and various other sources.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So.
> 
> The petition to stop the second referendum has just started. This will be debated in Westminster Hall on once it reaches 100,000 signatures.
> 
> The petition the remainers hijacked from a leave voter reached 4 million and got rejected by MP's.
> 
> The petition for a PV will be ignored as it is in a newspaper and not on the .gov website. It won't even get debated on.


This is getting silly. It's not a competition between Brexiters and Remainers, though you do seem to appreciate the UK remains as divided as ever over Brexit.

It was a newspaper campaign to re introduce blue passports. This fascist government will of course listen to ideas they support but not those that don't.

What evidence do you have that supports an earlier petition was hi-jacked by remainers? The government and indeed Jeremy Corbyn will dismiss anything that they don't agree with.

Why bother having petitions, why bother having Parliament?

This is the Independent's take on the matter with a stunning portrait of your strong and stable leader looking very much suited to Halloween as the wicked witch of the western world.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> What evidence do you have that supports an earlier petition was hi-jacked by remainers? The government and indeed Jeremy Corbyn will dismiss anything that they don't agree with.


Because the guy who set it up was a leave voter and complained remainers had hijacked it. MP's rejected it in Westminster Hall. I will find the link for you but it is in the original Brexit thread moggybaby setup.

Edited: This is the petition in question: https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/131215
The author of the petition complains that remains hijacked his petition: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-second-eu-referendum-latest-news-vote-leave-a7104076.html%3famp



























> Why bother having petitions,


Well you tell me because MP's keep rejecting the ones remainers keep setting up.


> why bother having Parliament?


To uphold democracy and the democratic will of the people in the referendum result in 2016 (as described in post 3082). 



> This is getting silly. It's not a competition between Brexiters and Remainers,


Some remainers seem to think they are the only ones who should have a voice. Sorry but some remainers are trying to subvert the referendum results of 2016 and have a problem accepting the results by having a PV/2nd referendum. Of course leave voters should do whatever is possible to stop remainers doing this. Leave voters are allowed to express how they feel as well.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The petition for a meaningful PV has exceeded 1m signatures!


Support is growing, and not just because of the petitioners. More and more MPs are supporting the move. When May can get neither a deal nor a no deal through Parliament, and dare not have a General Election in case the Tories are punished for the complete mess they've made of things, she'll realise that a PV is the only way to resolve Brexit and to keep her job.

Surgeons won't perform an operation on someone without 'informed consent'; i.e. the potential consequences are known.

Retrials are held when new information comes to light that has a bearing on the case.

Yet when the whole country is concerned, some claim that an uninformed, advisory poll 30 months ago should never be challenged even when the consequences were entirely unknown, and since when we have so much more information that the original result is now clearly unsafe. Especially when it is only the Tories' interpretation of a single, undefined word that is being claimed to be the Will of the People. It would beggar belief if the reason wasn't so blindingly obvious.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, did you really vote for stockpiling food and medicines?
> 
> Your rejection of a PV means only one thing.
> 
> You are scared.
> 
> That's very Un-British of you.





> Remember the two world wars you claim to have won? Perhaps you think you are winning this "war"?


What you waffling about now?


> I've had enough of this hatred you express towards those who won't convert to your way if thinking.


I have expressed no hatred to no one on here at all. Your facts are wrong yet again.


> Time to put you on ignore.


Your choice and fair enough.

This thread is becoming rather boring as the remainers taking part in it don't like it when people don't agree with them and challenge them.

I am ok with them blocking me as it shows they aren't open for debate and aren't open minded and are narrow minded thinking their opinion is only allowed.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Spot on comments here.
From the 48% FB page.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> My original question was to those who argue against austerity, but pro Eu. You're arguing pro both.


It's a question of where it's appropriate. Bringing up Greece in a discussion on the UK is comparing apples and oranges.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I keep pointing out that Greece has been hammered by austerity, not Magyarmum. Austerity forced upon it by the Eu.
> 
> And if you think we're suffering and poor and would be better off with the Eu in charge, look at what it does to the poorest in its group, in comparison to how the wealthier members do from it maybe.


I dont think Italy are doing very well either.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/economy


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I dont think Italy are doing very well either.


The question though is, would they do better by not being members of the EU?

The Leave campaign in 2016 promised the UK would of course.

Evidence even from the government itself suggests the reverse will be true.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> What you waffling about now?
> I have expressed no hatred to no one on here at all. Your facts are wrong yet again. Your choice and fair enough.
> 
> This thread is becoming rather boring as the remainers taking part in it don't like it when people don't agree with them and challenge them.
> 
> I am ok with them blocking me as it shows they aren't open for debate and aren't open minded and are narrow minded thinking their opinion is only allowed.


The post in question has now been deleated.

Fair comments in some respects but the tone of many of your posts hasn't moved on from the, "We won, you lost, get over it", rhetoric. They appear to deliberately be put up to wind up opponents of Brexit with silly smilies, whether that's your intention or not.

Of course people are entitled to an opinion that differs from one's own. No one is disputing that.

Your admiration for Theresa May one minute then condemning her the next is confusing to say the least!

As for your final paragraph, posts intended to wind up others, as I said it might not have been your deliberate intention, but do sometimes come over that way, is not debating.

It's taunting others with a different viewpoint to your own. Some might argue, it's a form of bullying.


----------



## KittenKong

Not sure what side this tweeter is on.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 374154
> 
> View attachment 374155


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374185
> 
> 
> View attachment 374182


The Stop The Second Referendum one is going up as you post on here won't be long before it surpasses the other one.

Look you have a go at me saying I am taunting you yet you want me to reply to you.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The Stop The Second Referendum one is going up as you post on here won't be long before it surpasses the other one.
> 
> Look you have a go at me saying I am taunting you yet you want me to reply to you.


I did say your posts sometimes come over that way but accept it may not have been your deliberate intention.

This petition is the "rival" to the Brexit must be stopped one, not the support for a PV.

Should the stop the second referendum petition surpass the other ones there's clearly many terrified of the prospect of a PV!

Some remainers I know are equally unhappy about the idea as they believe Leave would win again.

I believe Leave would win it again too. The usual media will ensure that.

But I'd rather Leave won with warnings of job losses, further austerity, a hard border in Ireland with the end of the GF agreement, rationing and stockpiling rather than unicorns and £350m weekly given to the NHS instead that was the case in 2016.

And of course with the No Deal voting option this could finally shut up Theresa May and her chequers plan up for good.


----------



## Arnie83

This wouldn't surprise me, and is of course why Parliament will never approve a no-deal Brexit.

*'No-deal' Brexit could trigger recession, ratings agency S&P warns*

S&P's analysis sees a recession lasting four to five quarters should there be no deal before the exit date on 29 March.

It sees the economy shrinking 1.2% in 2019 and 1.5% in 2020, and returning to only moderate growth the following year so that by 2021 economic output would still be 5.5% lower than in the event of an "orderly exit and transition period".

The scenario would see unemployment rise from the current level of 4% to more than 7%, a rate last seen in the wake of the financial crisis.​
Cue cries of scaremongering, guesswork, and the rubbishing of S&P.

It's worth noting that the immediate post-referendum period saw a global boom, which made things better for us than they might have been. It's quite possible that Brexit itself could trigger a global downturn, which could worsen things (though I haven't seen S&P's workings so don't know what their assumptions are).


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> It's a question of where it's appropriate. Bringing up Greece in a discussion on the UK is comparing apples and oranges.


Not in the particular context. We were discussing austerity, the Eu and the Conservative government in relation to brexit. The implication being that the Eu are not in favour of austerity which was imposed on us by our own government. It wasn't a separate discussion comparing Greece to Britain, but rather comparing the Conservative government and the Eu, relating to austerity as a policy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374182


It's getting there as I said.








But anyway. I think I will step back as anything I say is taken the wrong way by some remainers and will leave you to worrying about the impending Brexit.

I will be stepping back from pf for a while to do other things in real life. Have fun.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Not in the particular context. We were discussing austerity, the Eu and the Conservative government in relation to brexit. The implication being that the Eu are not in favour of austerity which was imposed on us by our own government. It wasn't a separate discussion comparing Greece to Britain, but rather comparing the Conservative government and the Eu, relating to austerity as a policy.


I happen to think that austerity is a pretty stupid way of trying to boost an economy whoever is imposing it, though both the UK and the EU seemed to be in favour of it after the crash.

In the context of a Brexit discussion it's worth pointing out that the EU couldn't impose it on the UK even if it wanted to. Hopefully no-one is in favour of leaving for fear of that happening.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> But anyway. I think I will step back as anything I say is taken the wrong way by some remainers and will leave you to worrying about the impending Brexit.


Well, there's an old saying: expect the best, but prepare for the worst. That's why, for example, I have a spare tyre in the car and AA membership - not because I KNOW I'm going to break down, but because there is always the chance.

Now, with Brexit, if you look at things objectively there's a pretty significant risk that as things stand that the UK will have (to continue the car analogy) some significant performance loss at the very best, through to a catastrophic engine failure at the very worst. So taking a few spare tyre and AA style precautions is only sensible, and personally I don't mind if people dismiss it as worrying over nothing. It's like any contingency plan - better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Ironically, I suspect this may well mean that, in many cases, Remainers will be the ones best prepared for Brexit...


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Well, there's an old saying: expect the best, but prepare for the worst. That's why, for example, I have a spare tyre in the car and AA membership - not because I KNOW I'm going to break down, but because there is always the chance.
> 
> Now, with Brexit, if you look at things objectively there's a pretty significant risk that as things stand that the UK will have (to continue the car analogy) some significant performance loss at the very best, through to a catastrophic engine failure at the very worst. So taking a few spare tyre and AA style precautions is only sensible, and personally I don't mind if people dismiss it as worrying over nothing. It's like any contingency plan - better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
> 
> Ironically, I suspect this may well mean that, in many cases, Remainers will be the ones best prepared for Brexit...


I think you should cancel your AA membership, but demand that they still provide free roadside assistance.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I KNOW it would. Your reference is to a Koch brothers libertarian think tank, hardly a trustworthy source :Jawdrop Do you know who the Koch brothers are @Magyarmum ?
> 
> As you keep pointing out Greece has been hammered by austerity (a right wing doctrine  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry Cheeky, I've evolved skin like a rhino - and deep down I know Mille loves me really












"Erm .... wot ...... Koch bruvvers? ....... never erd of dem"!

Oh @noushka05 how have I managed to live my life without you? (Quite well actually)

It's very scary not knowing which political "ism" one might be quoting and risking your disapproval if the wrong one has been chosen. In future perhaps,before posting I should PM you to make absolutely sure my information is written by someone whose "ism" coincides with yours and is therefore considered trustworthy (at least by your reckoning)?.

And as @Elles says in her post #3083 it wasn't me who mentioned Greece and austerity so both your comment about a right wing doctrine and the video of Fox's dippy Trisha Reagan having a go about Denmark are totally irrelevant.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> In the context of a Brexit discussion it's worth pointing out that the EU couldn't impose it on the UK even if it wanted to. Hopefully no-one is in favour of leaving for fear of that happening.


I wouldn't think so. My point wasn't about the Eu imposing it on Britain of course, but just that the Eu seem to be in favour of it, with an example of what makes me think that. 

What I seem to have gleaned from my observation is that some people think it's ok for the Eu to do it, so long as it's not to us. :Hilarious


----------



## havoc

It's OK for the EU to do it to any member which has signed up to it having the powers to do so under certain conditions and those conditions are met.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I wouldn't think so. My point wasn't about the Eu imposing it on Britain of course, but just that the Eu seem to be in favour of it, with an example of what makes me think that.
> 
> What I seem to have gleaned from my observation is that some people think it's ok for the Eu to do it, so long as it's not to us. :Hilarious


I don't want to come across as a biased EU-is-great Remainer, but I do think Greece was a special case. They had pursued really silly policies that, if not addressed, would have crashed their economy (and of course pretty much did). But being in the eurozone it had the potential to crash a few others as well.

The choices were to impose 'austerity' - which meant introducing reforms that inevitably meant pain because they had pretty much stolen Dad's credit card and gone on a spree - or to bail them out at the expense of those who hadn't been reckless, or to chuck them out of the eurozone and let them go bankrupt.

Given those choices, I don't think imposing austerity was an overly harsh course of action. Plus, of course, Greece could voluntarily have left the eurozone at any point and done their own thing, but they chose not to. "Grexit" was seen as inevitable long before Brexit was even thought of.

I do think that the terms of the bail-out might have been softened sooner than they were, but there would have been plenty of electorates complaining that Greece was costing them money through no fault of their own had that happened.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It's getting there as I said.
> View attachment 374219
> 
> But anyway. I think I will step back as anything I say is taken the wrong way by some remainers and will leave you to worrying about the impending Brexit.
> 
> I will be stepping back from pf for a while to do other things in real life. Have fun.


Funny isn't it. We're told Theresa May has ruled out any suggestion of a PV/third EU referendum yet some see a need to have a petition not to hold one?!

Where is their loyalty to their strong and stable leader? Clearly they don't trust her word!

From past experience such petitions don't achieve anything. They're designed to fool people into believing they live in a democracy.

Theresa May will declare a PV if she chooses to, no matter how many sign a petition for or against.

She won't of course unless she's put in a corner and her position is at risk.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You're right, I do. I love your passion and your concern for the planet :Kiss


Aw thank you x



Magyarmum said:


> "Erm .... wot ...... Koch bruvvers? ....... never erd of dem"!
> 
> Oh @noushka05 how have I managed to live my life without you? (Quite well actually)
> 
> It's very scary not knowing which political "ism" one might be quoting and risking your disapproval if the wrong one has been chosen. In future perhaps,before posting I should PM you to make absolutely sure my information is written by someone whose "ism" coincides with yours and is therefore considered trustworthy (at least by your reckoning)?.


You can resort to sarcasm and snide remarks all you like but you wont get a rise out of me @Magyarmum . This is too important to risk getting the thread closed. The sinister Koch brothers are one of the great threats to our living planet & as part of the dark web they are also directly pertinent to the brexit debate. They use their vast wealth to undermine democracy not only the USA but here in the UK too. Your source of reference (FEE) is funded by the Kochs, so to anyone looking objectively's reckoning this is one of the least trustworthy sites possible.

And this is a debate, if I believe someone is wrong about a subject I feel very strongly about then I'm going to put my argument forward & as strongly as I can. I'm not going to resort to personal attacks to derail the debate.

So just in case you or anyone else reading this isn't aware of the Koch brothers I'm going to quickly explain. Everyone needs to know about these monstrous individuals! The multi billionaire Koch brothers are two of the most dangerous people on the planet. They pump billions of dollars into think tanks, websites, astroturfers & so on to spread lies & disinformation about climate change and other topics (socialism for example) this is to influence the electorate into voting against their own best interests and for the benefit of their own greedy insidious aims.
*The Koch Brothers: The Men Who Sold the World*

https://www.ecowatch.com/koch-brothers-trump-climate-2436753305.html





























Magyarmum said:


> And as @Elles says in her post #3083 it wasn't me who mentioned Greece and austerity so both your comment about a right wing doctrine and the video of Fox's dippy Trisha Reagan having a go about Denmark are totally irrelevant.


This is the headline of the Koch funded website you referenced when you were trying to discredit democratic socialism >>>
*
Greece, Prostitution, and the Sad Consequences of Democratic Socialism
The moral of the story is that socialism (however defined) has never worked in any form at any time in histo*ry

My video was totally relevant - as was my comment, my point being, right wing doctrine hammered greece not socialism.

Capitalism is built on global suicide @Magyarmum . We must find a sustainable alternative before its too late. We have very little time left to act.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Who's 'patronising and belittling'??
> 
> You don't think that use of 'they' is patronising I take it?


There are few who do it. 
Once running out of ammo.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374257
> View attachment 374258


Canaria? Hmmm...

While Spain clamour so much about united Iberia and colonial anachronistic Gibraltar, conveniently counting on total ignorance that Ceuta, Melilla, those Canarias and so many more smaller anachronistic colonies they own in Africa?

Just a side comment.
But maybe if they want Gibraltar they will give Ceuta back to Morocco?
Let go of all colonies in Africa?


----------



## noushka05

The Brexit guide to Trick-Or-Treating. (via David Schneider)


----------



## KittenKong

"Bloody Americans, interfering with our Brexit".

Brilliant article!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e4efa1c401bd


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> "Bloody Americans, interfering with our Brexit".
> 
> Brilliant article!
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e4efa1c401bd
> 
> View attachment 374303


Quite, you'd think they'd have enough problems in their own country.....


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> "Bloody Americans, interfering with our Brexit".
> 
> Brilliant article!
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e4efa1c401bd
> 
> View attachment 374303


It is very good.

I do wonder about the complaint that an informed referendum is the 'elite' telling the plebs to vote again 'until they get it right'.

Who constitute this elite that they mention? And what is the 'right' way to vote?

May and the government would be telling us to vote for May's Brexit plan; so that is the 'official' right way to vote.

The surely even more elite Rees-Mogg, Boris & co. - so far removed from ordinary people that they can barely see them - would be saying that No Deal is the 'right' way to vote.

And the Remainers - Umunna, Soubry, Clarke & co - hardly represent officialdom thanks to their rebel status.

But it's a tried and tested anti-EU soundbite, so I've no doubt we'll hear it again.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I do wonder about the complaint that an informed referendum is the 'elite' telling the plebs to vote again 'until they get it right'.


That really is weird. Dear Jacob and Boris are not going to be happy that they aren't counted in the elite


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> That really is weird. Dear Jacob and Boris are not going to be happy that they aren't counted in the elite


Do you think they settle for being 'special'?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Breaking news ...

*Arron Banks referred to National Crime Agency*

The National Crime Agency is investigating Arron Banks and his Leave.EU campaign for alleged offences committed at the 2016 EU referendum.

Mr Banks and another senior campaign figure, Liz Bilney, were referred to the agency by the Electoral Commission.

The watchdog said it suspected money given to the campaign came "from impermissible sources".

Mr Banks has consistently denied any wrongdoing in connection to the referendum campaign.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337

I'm not going to claim that this, of itself - if proven - would invalidate the 2016 referendum, but it would certainly add weight to the argument that we should have another one once the 'deal' is known.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Breaking news ...
> 
> *Arron Banks referred to National Crime Agency*
> 
> The National Crime Agency is investigating Arron Banks and his Leave.EU campaign for alleged offences committed at the 2016 EU referendum.
> 
> Mr Banks and another senior campaign figure, Liz Bilney, were referred to the agency by the Electoral Commission.
> 
> The watchdog said it suspected money given to the campaign came "from impermissible sources".
> 
> Mr Banks has consistently denied any wrongdoing in connection to the referendum campaign.​
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337
> 
> I'm not going to claim that this, of itself - if proven - would invalidate the 2016 referendum, but it would certainly add weight to the argument that we should have another one once the 'deal' is known.


It's perhaps not surprising so many Brextremists are terrified of a PV as they're probably aware this would come out into the open sooner rather than later. This will be a big blow to them seeing this is happening now rather than April or May 2019.

Nevertheless, I'm not building my hopes up. The powers that be will probably exonerate Banks or, even if he is prosecuted politicians will stick to, " Respecting the will of the people" in a seriously flawed 2016 "referendum", despite all the evidence.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Breaking news ...
> 
> *Arron Banks referred to National Crime Agency*
> 
> The National Crime Agency is investigating Arron Banks and his Leave.EU campaign for alleged offences committed at the 2016 EU referendum.
> 
> Mr Banks and another senior campaign figure, Liz Bilney, were referred to the agency by the Electoral Commission.
> 
> The watchdog said it suspected money given to the campaign came "from impermissible sources".
> 
> Mr Banks has consistently denied any wrongdoing in connection to the referendum campaign.​
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337
> 
> I'm not going to claim that this, of itself - if proven - would invalidate the 2016 referendum, but it would certainly add weight to the argument that we should have another one once the 'deal' is known.


Considering his ties to business groups around Kremlin - looks like the Big Bear might have funded " the will of the people ".
Not just the troll army...
Obviously.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> It's perhaps not surprising so many Brextremists are terrified of a PV as they're probably aware this would come out into the open sooner rather than later. This will be a big blow to them seeing this is happening now rather than April or May 2019.
> 
> Nevertheless, I'm not building my hopes up. The powers that be will probably exonerate Banks or, even if he is prosecuted politicians will stick to, " Respecting the will of the people" in a seriously flawed 2016 "referendum", despite all the evidence.....


I think you're right.

But it does beg the question: What is the point of having electoral law, if the result stands regardless?

I can't think of another example where something continues even while a criminal investigation into its legitimacy is actually under way.


----------



## Elles

You can’t really discredit the will of the people just on who may or may not have put funding into something. Bearing in mind that Russians funded environmental groups to discredit fracking, so they could profit from their own, one would have to also then discredit anti fracking environmentalists.

For some people they were voting against the Eu rather than pro anything, rather like Noushka voting anti the badger cull rather than pro labour. Nothing anyone said or didn’t say was likely to change their anti Eu stance. Any more than those firmly in the remain camp will change their pro Eu stance.

Oh and if people were misled by carefully worded propaganda last time, why does anyone think it will be any different next time if there is a next time?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> For some people they were voting against the Eu rather than pro anything,


And some people actually made up their own minds without the use of newspaper headlines, minor celeb endorsements and stupid memes


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You can't really discredit the will of the people just on who may or may not have put funding into something. Bearing in mind that Russians funded environmental groups to discredit fracking, so they could profit from their own, one would have to also then discredit anti fracking environmentalists.
> 
> For some people they were voting against the Eu rather than pro anything, rather like Noushka voting anti the badger cull rather than pro labour. Nothing anyone said or didn't say was likely to change their anti Eu stance. Any more than those firmly in the remain camp will change their pro Eu stance.
> 
> Oh and if people were misled by carefully worded propaganda last time, why does anyone think it will be any different next time if there is a next time?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that those who voted to leave are in any way discredited, and I'm sure most of them made up their minds for reasons that would have no connection to any (alleged) criminal activity on the part of Banks's Leave campaign.

But there are now two referrals to the police for illegal activity by the Leave side. If nothing else, it tarnishes the result.

I couldn't hazard a guess as to how many people might have influenced by illegal activity, but surely the point is that for a referendum to be scrupulously fair - as it should be in a democracy - that number should be zero. If anyone claimed that it wasn't enough to have made a difference, then I'd have to ask how they reached such a conclusion.

And before anyone suggests that no election is scrupulously fair, we're not talking about spin, half-truths and lies here - what you rightly call 'carefully worded propaganda', perhaps - the accusations are of criminal activity, and that cannot be justified in the name of democracy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> And some people actually made up their own minds without the use of newspaper headlines, minor celeb endorsements and stupid memes


How many are actually aware they were under influence  .. because if you were aware you are lied to and the lies are funded by powers abroad that definitely do not put Britain first?
Everyone is allowed to believe that if their views on what is good for Britain happens to coincide with what is good for Mr Banks, Mr Putin and Mr Trump is just a happy coincidence....


----------



## Elles

A lot of what goes on should be illegal. I’m not totally sure what actual difference it makes where the money came from. They would have got it from somewhere and the campaign would have likely been the same with the same result. If people have acted illegally, then of course they should be in trouble for it, outside money is no longer permitted to be used for these campaigns, but I’m not convinced it made a difference to the result. We still don’t know if there was anything illegal though. It could be delaying tactics.


----------



## Arnie83

I do apologise for breaking this down into constituent bits, because I always think that is somehow more argumentative than just commenting, but you've made quite a few controversial points there that really should be challenged, though I hope in a reasonable way! 



Elles said:


> A lot of what goes on should be illegal.


I agree, but it isn't. This (allegedly) was.



Elles said:


> I'm not totally sure what actual difference it makes where the money came from. They would have got it from somewhere and the campaign would have likely been the same with the same result.


It makes a difference because it was (allegedly) illegal. Just that.

And if they could have got the money elsewhere, why (allegedly) use illegal means? Apart from being a criminal act, which most people avoid if they can, would it not have jeopardised their goal should it have been discovered before the vote?



Elles said:


> If people have acted illegally, then of course they should be in trouble for it, outside money is no longer permitted to be used for these campaigns, but *I'm not convinced it made a difference to the result.*


Me neither. But I'm not convinced that it didn't either, since we have absolutely no evidence to prove it one way or the other. What it does do, in my opinion, is make the result unsafe, for that very reason. We'd know if we asked them again, especially since they would have so much more information on which to base their decision. (And if it hasn't changed, so be it).



Elles said:


> We still don't know if there was anything illegal though. *It could be delaying tactics.*


By whom? Are you accusing the Electoral Commission of lying?


----------



## Elles

Not the electoral commission, though they are just people, but people with an agenda instigating the investigation. It’s possible.

In reality people asking for another go are hoping enough people have changed their mind in favour of the Eu. A small chance is better than no chance. For most of them it’s nothing to do with having more information, that’s just an excuse. Most voters have no more factual information than they had before the referendum imho.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> A lot of what goes on should be illegal. I'm not totally sure what actual difference it makes where the money came from. They would have got it from somewhere and the campaign would have likely been the same with the same result. If people have acted illegally, then of course they should be in trouble for it, outside money is no longer permitted to be used for these campaigns, but I'm not convinced it made a difference to the result. We still don't know if there was anything illegal though. It could be delaying tactics.





Elles said:


> Not the electoral commission, though they are just people, but people with an agenda instigating the investigation. It's possible.
> 
> In reality people asking for another go are hoping enough people have changed their mind in favour of the Eu. A small chance is better than no chance. For most of them it's nothing to do with having more information, that's just an excuse. Most voters have no more factual information than they had before the referendum imho.


Well... more info about 350 mln on the buses for the start... more reality checks as to new deals?
All that scaremongering about Turkey about to join EU?
Then the City, the NI , Welsh farmers- even they can twig by now...EU is their market not Australia... 
Pensioners must consider the meds and health care with shortages of EU staff... 
So it may strike home...


----------



## Elles

That kind of information isn’t in our popular press and no one reads the guardian. There might be slightly more information, but it doesn’t mean people have it. Most of what we get to see is exaggerated, sensationalist information spread around by people with an agenda, unless we actually look for the facts. You may be concerned about a small number of Eu health care staff dropping out of our nhs, I think the nhs has other problems, as we’ve already talked about. 

If people looked for facts, they wouldn’t have read so much into the nhs bus, nor thought it was a promise rather than a very vague possibility. We’re told that leave voters believed that we were promised 350 million a week for the nhs and that many still think it. But also that people should get a second vote. Because they’ll make the intelligent choice (which remain voters think is remain of course) and vote based on facts this time? Lol

Why not just admit that you want a second go because people might vote differently next time, or leave voters are fed up by now and might not bother to turn up to vote at all, or new voters might vote to stay in this time, if they heed the warnings of Armageddon?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> That kind of information isn't in our popular press and no one reads the guardian. There might be slightly more information, but it doesn't mean people have it. Most of what we get to see is exaggerated, sensationalist information spread around by people with an agenda, unless we actually look for the facts. You may be concerned about a small number of Eu health care staff dropping out of our nhs, I think the nhs has other problems, as we've already talked about.
> 
> If people looked for facts, they wouldn't have read so much into the nhs bus, nor thought it was a promise rather than a very vague possibility. We're told that leave voters believed that we were promised 350 million a week for the nhs and that many still think it. But also that people should get a second vote. Because they'll make the intelligent choice (which remain voters think is remain of course) and vote based on facts this time? Lol
> 
> Why not just admit that you want a second go because people might vote differently next time, or leave voters are fed up by now and might not bother to turn up to vote at all, or new voters might vote to stay in this time, if they heed the warnings of Armageddon?


Basically because Brexit is a bad idea and hopefully some people who voted Leave might have realised that.
So I hope.
Definitely more is known now. Like that our currency lost about 13 percent value in one day after Brexit - this is how markets think of it.
Reality and that affect prices, costs etc... even ordinary Joe Blogg understands that now we pay more for everything we buy - like petrol, iron ore, rice, bananas, tea , coffee, cotton and so on....
And that we earn less. So we buy less which will cause job loss and so on - recession is looming. Not something to be happy about.
Hard Brexit means recession. If only a few percent of Leave voters understood that...Possibility of a long recession.
People who have family to feed might not like that, no matter what slogans say.


----------



## Elles

According to the news:

Poorer children now receive a bigger share of the education spending in a remarkable shift.

U.K. wage growth the fastest in 10 years.

Employment at a record high

Unemployment record low

Extra taxes being imposed on internet and tech giants 

Sterling is up

Eu citizens will be able to apply for settled status via an app on their android phones and the government are trying to get Apple to agree to it too. The government gave a £91m contract to a French company to install computer terminals in libraries to make it easier for people without computers or android phones to apply to stay in the U.K.

Does all this sound doom, gloom and cutting off Europe that will persuade people to want to stay in the Eu?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Not the electoral commission, though they are just people, but people with an agenda instigating the investigation. It's possible.


It was the Electoral Commission who instigated the investigation.



Elles said:


> Why not just admit that you want a second go because people might vote differently next time, or leave voters are fed up by now and might not bother to turn up to vote at all, or new voters might vote to stay in this time, if they heed the warnings of Armageddon?


The original vote told me all I needed to know about this country, unfortunately, and a new vote wouldn't change that whichever way it went.

But I want a vote on the deal / no deal / no Brexit because more facts are now at least available, whether people want to research them or not. And because the People should get to say whether what is on offer is what they wanted when they voted. And because in a democracy we should always be allowed to change our minds.

A Remain vote won't change what I now think of the UK, but it will be better for everyone's economic future, so yes I would like to see Brexit reversed.


----------



## KittenKong

I know the Daily Mail recently changed editors but this certainly wasn't expected. 
Who's the "Enemy" now?

If there's any truth in this Theresa May should be forced to resign immediately with the entire Brexit farce cancelled.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...robing-Arron-Banks-run-Brexit-referendum.html


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> U.K. wage growth the fastest in 10 years.


It's a cheery statistic but it was either static or even negative growth for many in those ten years.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> According to the news:
> 
> Poorer children now receive a bigger share of the education spending in a remarkable shift.
> 
> U.K. wage growth the fastest in 10 years.
> 
> Employment at a record high
> 
> Unemployment record low
> 
> Extra taxes being imposed on internet and tech giants
> 
> Sterling is up
> 
> Eu citizens will be able to apply for settled status via an app on their android phones and the government are trying to get Apple to agree to it too. The government gave a £91m contract to a French company to install computer terminals in libraries to make it easier for people without computers or android phones to apply to stay in the U.K.
> 
> Does all this sound doom, gloom and cutting off Europe that will persuade people to want to stay in the Eu?


That is of course what you'll hear from BBCtv News especially. You'd think everyone living in the UK were living in a paradise!

It's no help for poorer children if their parents' can' afford to feed them properly.

And a zero hours contract is NOT a job as far as I'm concerned. No work for the week=no pay. The only "employment" record is a record number of people on zero hour contracts.

I've been on zero hour contracts in the past so I know what I'm bloody well talking about.

As for wages, they've hardly changed in eight years, it's ok for the politicians who've had double figure percentage increases of course.

More magic money tree pap. Was it necessary to award a French firm £91m for something we all took for granted, both ways remember?

Surely if this had to be done shouldn't they have awarded the contract to a UK firm?

Sorry, but you can't persuade me to get behind a vile Tory government, nor will I embrace the removal of my EU citizenship against my wishes, just to keep the type of people such as Tommy Robinson supporters happy.


----------



## KittenKong

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-frontline-politics-brexit-referendum/


----------



## Elles

I wasn’t trying to persuade anyone. The idea seems to be though that Britain is in dire straits and everyone is seeing how bad it is, so will vote to remain in the Eu. What I was pointing out was that according to the news that’s not true. The predictions of Armageddon are predictions, they haven’t actually happened yet.

Where are all these poor, starving children btw. We have an obesity crisis. I can’t remember the last time I saw a skinny kid. As most people think that feeding properly means keeping weight on, it’s nothing like it was in the past. Poor people can afford to feed their children, education is what gives them the knowledge to feed them properly. Who on here is a poor person who can’t afford to feed their children? 

Delays in welfare support, the stupid assessments of disabled people and zero hour contracts are where the system is failing and needs urgent attention. When people get the money, it doesn’t leave them starving with nothing. Poor isn’t what poor used to be. 

As for the French contract, it proves that we’re still working with Eu countries. We haven’t pulled up the drawbridge. The Conservative government is mostly pro Eu and would rather stay in, that includes TM. So no, it shouldn’t have been awarded to a U.K. company. We’re still in the Eu. We are however leaving the Eu and as many think it important that Eu citizens have as smooth and simple a transition as possible, money needed to be allocated to make it so. Nothing wrong with a French firm getting a contract to make the transition smooth for fellow Europeans.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> nor will I embrace the removal of my EU citizenship against my wishes, just to keep the type of people such as Tommy Robinson supporters happy.


I hope you aren't tarring all leave voters with that particular brush.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-frontline-politics-brexit-referendum/
> 
> View attachment 374432


Damage...... that's putting it mildly


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I hope you aren't tarring all leave voters with that particular brush.


"The type of people such as Tommy Robinson supporters". Given as an example.

Nowhere does that suggest everyone who supports Brexit is a Tommy Robinson supporter. But all supporters of TR will be Brexiters without exception.


----------



## StormyThai

You don't need to be skinny to be nutritionally malnourished or starving...Just like a large person isn't necessarily unhealthy or unfit.
The amount of food banks around should be a clear enough indication that a large number of people can't afford to feed themselves or their kids...ever missed a meal just so you can pay a bill or afford to get to work?

I have...and so have others that I know of...


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> thoughts of grandeur.


Not me, not guilty.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> As for the French contract, it proves that we're still working with Eu countries. We haven't pulled up the drawbridge. The Conservative government is mostly pro Eu and would rather stay in, that includes TM. So no, it shouldn't have been awarded to a U.K. company. We're still in the Eu. We are however leaving the Eu and as many think it important that Eu citizens have as smooth and simple a transition as possible, money needed to be allocated to make it so. Nothing wrong with a French firm getting a contract to make the transition smooth for fellow Europeans.


Quoting some understandable views from some Brexit supporters I know, they hoped it would reverse the trend of outsourcing contracts outside the UK, by putting UK firms first. "British jobs for British workers" and all that.

Surely they are "British" firms who are capable of doing the job? To outsource them overseas is surely putting the "country" down.

With the government continuing to undermine UK firms unless they close operations in favour of Singapore for example, it goes to show the EU aren't at fault for the decline of traditional British industries after all.

It's the UK government, past and present, that allowed this to happen. Brexit won't reverse that trend....


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=311648689424779&id=206794096660124


----------



## Elles

StormyThai said:


> You don't need to be skinny to be nutritionally malnourished or starving...Just like a large person isn't necessarily unhealthy or unfit.
> The amount of food banks around should be a clear enough indication that a large number of people can't afford to feed themselves or their kids...ever missed a meal just so you can pay a bill or afford to get to work?
> 
> I have...and so have others that I know of...


Yes, that's why I said for most people it means keeping weight on and education gives knowledge to feed properly. A lot of children these days are overweight, or obese, due to a poor diet. Money or no money they'll be eating processed, sugared, plastic cardboard as part of their diet unfortunately. For nearly 9 months I lived on nothing but milk and muesli back in the late 70s early 80s and slept on the floor, due to Conservative policies. Missing one meal would have made me feel wealthy. I left school weighing just over 5 stone. From interviews I've read with food banks, the people using them are those in welfare limbo. Which I covered in my post. And that is scandalous and should be addressed with all urgency I agree. However, that is due to government policy and logistics and has little to do with whether we stay or leave the Eu.

I'm not saying what I think, but rather what I see though. Leave voters have been accused of being uninformed, uneducated, lied to, misled, falling for propaganda, brain washed and various other things. However, remain voters want a second vote because we now have more information and can make a more informed, intelligent choice and we can see how bad it all is apparently.

What I'm trying to show is the information that is actually out there if you read the normal press and watch the normal news. We get a lot of links to twitter and blogs, in capital letters and bold type, embellished with images and memes. That's not the normal news and what most people see on a day to day basis I think. What people see on a day to day basis is average stuff and a bit of worse case scenario, which, if you take into account past history I can't really see making that much difference to a remain or leave opinion for most people.

Just my opinion though.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Quoting some understandable views from some Brexit supporters I know, they hoped it would reverse the trend of outsourcing contracts outside the UK, by putting UK firms first. "British jobs for British workers" and all that.
> 
> It's the UK government, past and present, that allowed this to happen. Brexit won't reverse that trend....


Nor will staying in.

If that's what people want, it's slightly more likely if we leave, if only due to tariffs, taxes and logistics making using Eu firms more expensive and complicated.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374446


What hasn't aged well? I can't see what the letter to my MP (Ben Bradshaw) says. They weren't investigating the guy then?


----------



## Elles

I’ve looked it up. It seems the guy may or may not have used funds he transferred from the Isle of Man and/or Gibraltar to fund his unofficial pro Leave Eu campaign. It looks as though he may also have been trying to con the Russians into investing in a diamond mine that had no diamonds. My M-I-L is from the Isle of Man, I didn’t know it counted as being outside the U.K. 

Theresa May wanted to stay in the Eu. There was little doubt before the referendum that Remain would easily win. All predictions, polls and projections came to that conclusion. It could be that she did stop an investigation into a pro leave character, to avoid being accused of bias and having eggs thrown at her windows.


----------



## Arnie83

There may be more to it than I've seen, but what seems to me a perfectly reasonable arrangement between two EU members facilitating free movement between them turns, in the hands of the permanently enraged Express into an OUTRAGE intended to humiliate Britain.

*BREXIT OUTRAGE: France signs Ireland deal to leave UK lorries in Calais queue for HOURS*

Paris struck a deal with the Republic of Ireland to fast-track its commercial drivers crossing the Channel from Dover to the French port.

The agreement was made between Ireland's Foreign Minister Simon Coveney and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Wednesday.

Mr Coveney said: "We've had quite detailed discussions in terms of differentiating Irish trucks from British trucks. Under the right circumstances Irish trucks will not need to be inspected, whereas UK trucks may need to be inspected."

But the deal has angered haulage firms in the UK, who have blasted the EU for an apparent attempt to punish and humiliate Britain over Brexit.​
How dare they! Don't they realise that we are Britain? What is wrong with these foreigners?!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> There may be more to it than I've seen, but what seems to me a perfectly reasonable arrangement between two EU members facilitating free movement between them turns, in the hands of the permanently enraged Express into an OUTRAGE intended to humiliate Britain.
> 
> *BREXIT OUTRAGE: France signs Ireland deal to leave UK lorries in Calais queue for HOURS*
> 
> Paris struck a deal with the Republic of Ireland to fast-track its commercial drivers crossing the Channel from Dover to the French port.
> 
> The agreement was made between Ireland's Foreign Minister Simon Coveney and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Wednesday.
> 
> Mr Coveney said: "We've had quite detailed discussions in terms of differentiating Irish trucks from British trucks. Under the right circumstances Irish trucks will not need to be inspected, whereas UK trucks may need to be inspected."
> 
> But the deal has angered haulage firms in the UK, who have blasted the EU for an apparent attempt to punish and humiliate Britain over Brexit.​
> How dare they! Don't they realise that we are Britain? What is wrong with these foreigners?!


Now they might even put us in a different queue just because of the colour of our passport. Outrageous. 
Not to mention tariffs and customs paperwork. 
Cannot they treat with that respect May went on about and put Britain First?
Don't they know we are BRITISH? We won THE WAR and we had the EMPIRE.
How dare they go behind our back and decide anything without asking us first?

The answers on postcards please.


----------



## Elles

Isn’t Ireland staying in the Eu? Why would France need to sign an agreement with an Eu country?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Nor will staying in.
> 
> If that's what people want, it's slightly more likely if we leave, if only due to tariffs, taxes and logistics making using Eu firms more expensive and complicated.


The point is, many brexiters wrongly blame the EU for the demise of traditional UK industries. They expected Brexit would at least reverse this decline, "Putting Britain and the British first".

Just as those who believed the lies on the big red bus, they were conned.


----------



## Elles

And if that’s so, what makes you think they won’t be conned again? 

We haven’t left yet and we don’t have a pro Brexit government, so why should anything change yet?

Companies are already blaming brexit for any of their problems. That’s more often than not a lie. They all lie. Take everything with a hefty pinch of salt is my view. The big red bus poster didn’t lie. It didn’t promise anything. People might have thought it did. The intention was likely to get people to think it did. But it actually didn’t.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Isn't Ireland staying in the Eu? Why would France need to sign an agreement with an Eu country?


It's only the Express, so whether anything had to be signed or not is unclear. They wouldn't have needed to sign an agreement regarding the principle of unchecked free movement since, as you say, they are both EU members. I guess they might have agreed some procedural issues.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> And if that's so, what makes you think they won't be conned again?
> 
> We haven't left yet and *we don't have a pro Brexit government*, so why should anything change yet?
> 
> Companies are already blaming brexit for any of their problems. That's more often than not a lie. They all lie. Take everything with a hefty pinch of salt is my view. *The big red bus poster didn't lie*. It didn't promise anything. People might have thought it did. The intention was likely to get people to think it did. But it actually didn't.


Don't we?

And yes it did. We don't send £350 million a week to the EU, and never have.


----------



## Elles

No, we don’t have a pro Brexit government. If we did, Boris, Gove, or Jeremy would be in charge of it. 

The bus was using the gross amount, which was actually more than £360 million and the Eu doesn’t get it all, but it still makes my point. It’s not hard to look up how much we actually pay into the Eu, but a poster on the side of a bus is an important source of accurate information. Do you think if they’d said instead £1 million a week and underestimated it, people would have been likely to think it was a bargain?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> No, we don't have a pro Brexit government. If we did, Boris, Gove, or Jeremy would be in charge of it.
> 
> The bus was using the gross amount, which was actually more than £360 million and the Eu doesn't get it all, but it still makes my point. It's not hard to look up how much we actually pay into the Eu, but a poster on the side of a bus is an important source of accurate information. Do you think if they'd said instead £1 million a week and underestimated it, people would have been likely to think it was a bargain?


I think the PM says Brexit is Brexit and wants to deliver it as " will of the people ", no matter what the people might think about the deal they will actually get.
If that is not pro Brexit government then what will make it more pro Brexit short of surrounding the British Isles with a Wall ?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The bus was using the gross amount, which was actually more than £360 million and the Eu doesn't get it all, but it still makes my point. It's not hard to look up how much we actually pay into the Eu, but a poster on the side of a bus is an important source of accurate information. Do you think if they'd said instead £1 million a week and underestimated it, people would have been likely to think it was a bargain?


I'm getting pernickety now! 

It _was_ using the gross amount - which varies - and it stated "We send £350 m". But thanks to the rebate - which the EU can't remove without our agreement - we don't. And the Leave campaign knew we don't. It was a lie.

And when we leave that £350 m doesn't suddenly become available to spend on other things, because we already retain a large chunk of it and already spend it on other things.

Why they chose to lie when the actual figure is pretty eye-watering to those who only look at the costs without the benefits I don't know. But they did.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm getting pernickety now!
> 
> It _was_ using the gross amount - which varies - and it stated "We send £350 m". But thanks to the rebate - which the EU can't remove without our agreement - we don't. And the Leave campaign knew we don't. It was a lie.
> 
> And when we leave that £350 m doesn't suddenly become available to spend on other things, because we already retain a large chunk of it and already spend it on other things.
> 
> Why they chose to lie when the actual figure is pretty eye-watering to those who only look at the costs without the benefits I don't know. But they did.


Totally agree, other than 'lie'. Economical with the truth and exaggerating, it still doesn't take anything away from my suggestion that if propaganda printed on the side of a bus by a biased campaign is considered an important and accurate source of information, voters are as unlikely to have more information than they did back then and are just as likely to make what the Remain camp consider is the wrong choice.

However, just as leave voters wanted to take the chance that things would change for the better outside the Eu, I don't blame Remain voters for wanting to take the chance that a second vote would give them the result they want.

If politicians have any sense at all, they'll get a good result from the various negotiations instead though imo. As is being pointed out, some seriously deranged and violent characters voted to leave and has also been pointed out, there have been cut backs in our police force. Although I don't think we should be held to ransom by terrorists or unsavoury characters, some kind of beneficial deal would probably be better for the country than holding a second referendum and staying in the Eu.


----------



## Ozzie55

Arnie83 said:


> There may be more to it than I've seen, but what seems to me a perfectly reasonable arrangement between two EU members facilitating free movement between them turns, in the hands of the permanently enraged Express into an OUTRAGE intended to humiliate Britain.
> 
> *BREXIT OUTRAGE: France signs Ireland deal to leave UK lorries in Calais queue for HOURS*
> 
> Paris struck a deal with the Republic of Ireland to fast-track its commercial drivers crossing the Channel from Dover to the French port.
> 
> The agreement was made between Ireland's Foreign Minister Simon Coveney and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Wednesday.
> 
> Mr Coveney said: "We've had quite detailed discussions in terms of differentiating Irish trucks from British trucks. Under the right circumstances Irish trucks will not need to be inspected, whereas UK trucks may need to be inspected."
> 
> But the deal has angered haulage firms in the UK, who have blasted the EU for an apparent attempt to punish and humiliate Britain over Brexit.​
> How dare they! Don't they realise that we are Britain? What is wrong with these foreigners?!


I don't see the problem there! Ireland has nothing to do with the UK apart from the six countries in the North! Anyone can make a deal with the Republic of Ireland without Britain's permission!


----------



## KittenKong

More evidence of a laughing stock the UK under the command of Theresa May has become.

This pro Brexit post was shared by the 48% group. It's quite laughable.

Well, many Brexiters insist they knew what they voted for, so I suggest they get over it and "Book early" for Pontins or Butlins next year.

















If I chose to cancel my AA membership I wouldn't expect their assistance in the event of a breakdown. The AA wouldn't be punishing me as I chose to leave them.

It's exactly the same with Brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> More evidence of a laughing stock the UK under the command of Theresa May has become.
> 
> This pro Brexit post was shared by the 48% group. It's quite laughable.
> 
> Well, many Brexiters insist they knew what they voted for, so I suggest they get over it and "Book early" for Pontins or Butlinsnext year.
> 
> View attachment 374753
> View attachment 374754
> 
> 
> If I chose to cancel my AA membership I wouldn't expect their assistance in the event of a breakdown. The AA wouldn't be punishing me as I chose to leave them.
> 
> It's exactly the same with Brexit.


You obviously haven't read the Shengen Visa Information, otherwise you'd know that not every non EU country or person needs a visa to enter a Shengen Area.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/who-needs-schengen-visa/

Take a particular note of how the rules apply at present to the British who are not citizens.

3) British citizens who are not nationals of the United Kingdom (British Nationals (Overseas):

British Nationals (Overseas)
British Overseas Territories Citizens
British Overseas Citizens
British Protected Persons
British Subjects
It's quite possible and logical that after Brexit all British citizens could be included in the above. After all it's not in the interest of countries like France or Spain to place such a restriction one of their main sources of income, namely tourism,


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> You obviously haven't read the Shengen Visa Information, otherwise you'd know that not every non EU country or person needs a visa to enter a Shengen Area.
> 
> https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/who-needs-schengen-visa/
> 
> Take a particular note of how the rules apply at present to the British who are not citizens.
> 
> 3) British citizens who are not nationals of the United Kingdom (British Nationals (Overseas):
> 
> British Nationals (Overseas)
> British Overseas Territories Citizens
> British Overseas Citizens
> British Protected Persons
> British Subjects
> It's quite possible and logical that after Brexit all British citizens could be included in the above. After all it's not in the interest of countries like France or Spain to place such a restriction one of their man sources of income, namely tourism,


Possible and logical indeed - but not necessarily in a No Deal scenario, which is what the article references.

Mind you, I think KK was referring more to the fact people seem to be a) surprised that leaving the EU means all kinds of benefits (including stuff many weren't even aware they get as a result of EU membership) will have to be renegotiated and paid for either centrally by the British government or individually by the end user citizen as required, and b) think the EU is out to punish us for leaving by making us pay for things we currently pay for as part of our membership.

To use a slightly diffrent example to KK, if I had a subscription gym membership and decided to end it, I'd then expect to have to pay every time I wanted to use the gym facilities - and I would regard this as normal and reasonable, not an attempt to 'punish' me for not having a membership. I either have a membership and gain access to all the facilities, including some I may never use, or I do not have a membership and pay for just the facilities I want to use. That some of my fellow citizens, and indeed some of our leading political figures, seem either unable or unwilling to accept that basic logic is getting a bit embarrassing, frankly...


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> it's possible and logical that after Brexit all British citizens could be included in the above. After all it's not in the interest of countries like France or Spain to place such a restriction one of their main sources of income, namely tourism,


That isn't good enough though is it.

And with Theresa May destined to extend her hostile environment policy for EU citizens in addition to taking away FOM rights for "her subjects", the EU are hardly going to grant her special privileges are they, in spite how how superior the UK considers itself.

The visa free countries are not ones who condemned the EU, who made enemies out of former colleagues which is what the UK government have done. They even call the Brexit cabinet the, " War cabinet". Not only is that insulting to the memory of our forefathers but insulting towards other European countries as well.

Even if this wasn't the case May will make a complete mess of things if Universal Credit has anything to go by, not forgetting Thatcher and her Poll Tax.

" What's good for the goose" as the saying goes.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> That isn't good enough though is it.
> 
> And with Theresa May destined to extend her hostile environment policy for EU citizens in addition to taking away FOM rights for "her subjects", the EU are hardly going to grant her special privileges are they, in spite how how superior the UK considers itself.
> 
> The visa free countries are not ones who condemned the EU, who made enemies out of former colleagues which is what the UK government have done. They even call the Brexit cabinet the, " War cabinet". Not only is that insulting to the memory of our forefathers but insulting towards other European countries as well.
> 
> Even if this wasn't the case May will make a complete mess of things if Universal Credit has anything to go by, not forgetting Thatcher and her Poll Tax.
> 
> " What's good for the goose" as the saying goes.


What on earth are you warbling on about?

I don't understand what Universal Credit, Maggie Thatcher and the Poll Tax has to do with Shengen???????

I would remind you there's another saying about not "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" !


----------



## Arnie83

Jolly sensible people, these lawyers!

*UK's top lawyers urge Theresa May to back second Brexit vote*
More than 1,500 sign letter calling on PM to let British people have final say on EU membership

In a letter to the prime minister, they say parliament should not be bound by the 2016 vote any more than it should be by the 1975 referendum that took Britain into the EU, especially when there were question marks over its validity.

They write that "voters are entitled to know what they are voting for", adding: "There was a key difference between 1975 and 2016. The earlier referendum was held after negotiations were complete, so voters knew what they were voting for.

"In 2016, the nature of the negotiation process and its outcome were unknown. Voters faced a choice between a known reality and an unknown alternative. In the campaign, untestable claims took the place of facts and reality."​
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-urge-theresa-may-to-back-second-brexit-vote

Letter reproduced here:

Let the people judge whether a Brexit deal is fit for purpose


----------



## kimthecat

There's going to be a programme on ch 4 tonight 8 pm about Brexit . They did a massive poll and the results are going to be revealed and then discussed with MPs etc . live in front of an audience.
Eek! I hope they have security , I can imagine it ending in one big punch up . 

I really hope Boris isnt on it. Shut UP Boris!


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> There's going to be a programme on ch 4 tonight 8 pm about Brexit . They did a massive poll and the results are going to be revealed and then discussed with MPs etc . live in front of an audience.
> Eek! I hope they have security , I can imagine it ending in one big punch up .
> 
> I really hope Boris isnt on it. Shut UP Boris!


I may be getting confused but was this the poll of just Labour voters or is that another one?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> There's going to be a programme on ch 4 tonight 8 pm about Brexit . They did a massive poll and the results are going to be revealed and then discussed with MPs etc . live in front of an audience.
> Eek! I hope they have security , *I can imagine it ending in one big punch up* .
> 
> I really hope Boris isnt on it. Shut UP Boris!


I'm being overly cynical perhaps, but being Channel 4, and with the emphasis on 'entertainment', and whatever the results of the research, I expect similar. A lot of noise but not a lot of erudite discussion!



rona said:


> I may be getting confused but was this the poll of just Labour voters or is that another one?


I don't think it's just Labour voters.


----------



## noushka05

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston


Senior Tory MP on state of Brexit talks: it has the feeling of reaching crunch point. We are being called in to talk to Whips etc about our 'current thoughts'. I have constituents starting to panic about access to medicines in event of no deal. Awful we'd put anyone through that


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> "Cutting off your nose to spite your face"


perfect analogy for brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> perfect analogy for brexit.[/QUOTE
> 
> And for the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston
> 
> 
> Senior Tory MP on state of Brexit talks: it has the feeling of reaching crunch point. We are being called in to talk to Whips etc about our 'current thoughts'. I have constituents starting to panic about access to medicines in event of no deal. Awful we'd put anyone through that


It's very obvious that May is gambling that MPs will be so scared of a No Deal (rightly, but some of the scare stories are simply silly) that they will vote her 'deal' through so as not to risk it. She will try to frustrate the sovereignty of Parliament to ensure that no other options can be considered, least of all actually asking the People what they think.

Who elected her Dictator, I wonder.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> And for the EU


How so?


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Who elected her Dictator, I wonder.


An electorate with no choice - and she even nearly managed to stuff that. The biggest danger of present times is that the whole Brexit stupidity takes the people's eyes off the ball at home. All we seem to be proving is that we aren't fit to manage this or ourselves. The time is ripe for a dictator and people will wonder how it happened.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> How so?


I refer you to my reply #3178 where IMO if British citizens holidaying in countries such as France or Spain were required to have a Shengen Visa it could seriously affect their tourism industry which contributes significantly to their economy.

Spain for example had 18 million British holiday makers in 2017 And the British tourist spends some £33 bn a year in Europe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...records-for-fifth-straight-year-idUSKBN1F01EI

Hence the saying "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" could be said of the EU if we were forced to apply for Shengen Visas as it would inevitably reduce the number of British holiday makers visiting EU countries with the resultant loss of income.


----------



## Britt

Why not a Mayxit ?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I refer you to my reply #3178 where IMO if British citizens holidaying in countries such as France or Spain were required to have a Shengen Visa it could seriously affect their tourism industry which contributes significantly to their economy.
> 
> Spain for example had 18 million British holiday makers in 2017 And the British tourist spends some £33 bn a year in Europe.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...records-for-fifth-straight-year-idUSKBN1F01EI
> 
> Hence the saying "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" could be said of the EU if we were forced to apply for Shengen Visas as it would inevitably reduce the number of British holiday makers visiting EU countries with the resultant loss of income.


Oh yes, we're back to, "They need us more than we need them" are we?

Even in the unlikely event Theresa May accepts visa-free travel for EU citizens post Brexit which in turn the EU allow the same for UK citizens, the era of cheap flights might be over for the majority of us.

You keep suggesting we should embrace Brexit even though you continue to reside in an EU country and to think positively as things are going to work out fine.

You can see how well Theresa May's government are doing with UC and Thatcher with the Poll Tax disasters.
Do you think May will do any better with Brexit?


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I'm being overly cynical perhaps, but being Channel 4, and with the emphasis on 'entertainment', and whatever the results of the research, I expect similar. A lot of noise but not a lot of erudite discussion!
> 
> .


Yes . You.re cynical A bit unfair to ch 4. They do programmes like Despatches.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I may be getting confused but was this the poll of just Labour voters or is that another one?


Its an independent poll. I dont think its the labour only one


----------



## KittenKong

This was predictable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lincolnshire-capital-punishment-a8615731.html

Next they'll bring back National Service as well.

An interesting thought. Should the Death Penalty be re-instated what would happen to existing prisoners' serving life sentences? Would they be exempt as they were found guilty before the resurrection or would they be the first to be killed?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, we're back to, "They need us more than we need them" are we?
> 
> Even in the unlikely event Theresa May accepts visa-free travel for EU citizens post Brexit which in turn the EU allow the same for UK citizens, the era of cheap flights might be over for the majority of us.
> 
> You keep suggesting we should embrace Brexit even though you continue to reside in an EU country and to think positively as things are going to work out fine.
> 
> You can see how well Theresa May's government are doing with UC and Thatcher with the Poll Tax disasters.
> Do you think May will do any better with Brexit?


On the contrary, I'm looking at the issuing of visas from a purely practical, common sense point of view.

It's a fact that in 2017 some 18 million British tourists visited Spain. Suppose, in future they need a visa, then to process that number, plus the visas issued to other nationals like South Africans, the Spanish Embassy would have to deal with around 50,000 applications every single day of the year!. The same is true to a greater (France) or lesser degree for every EU country.

Have you read the requirements? Do you realise that often first time applicants have to actually visit the Embassy or Consulate once and it takes at least two weeks or longer to process each application?

I know because when a South African friend who lives in the UK came to visit me I had to provide a notarised letter stating that I could afford to support her if necessary during her stay, together with a copy of a recent bank statement. Her application took nearly two months to process,

I could be wrong but l very much doubt whether the 27 EU members would vote in favour of taking on such an increased work load and the ensuing chaos such a decision would cause.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-application-requirements/

You seem to think that despite my being British like you, I have no right to have an opinion about Brexit (and presumably anything else) simply because I live in another country which happens to be in the EU, As someone who makes it quite plain you consider the UK to be a Fascist state and TM a dictator (your words not mine) I wonder why you are still living in a country you hate so much? Perhaps you should relocate to a country where you might begin to appreciate how lucky you are to be living in a democracy.

Venezuela springs to mind.......

https://theconversation.com/venezuela-is-now-a-dictatorship-96960

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-conversation/


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider
5th November 1605: one man will not rest till he's blown up Parliament.

5th November 2018: one man will not rest till he's blown the whole country up.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider
> 5th November 1605: one man will not rest till he's blown up Parliament.
> 
> 5th November 2018: one man will not rest till he's blown the whole country up.


How does Boris know what the proposed deal is? Or does he just think it's been too long since he was in the papers so he'd better say something?


----------



## Arnie83

I didn't watch the programme last night, but all I would say from the figures in the piece below is that the Will of the People can not reasonably be used to justify whatever particular deal May brings back, and certainly not for a No Deal Brexit.

5 Nov 2018
*Major new Brexit poll shows voters swinging towards Remain*

https://www.channel4.com/news/major-new-brexit-poll-shows-voters-swinging-towards-remain


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> This was predictable.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lincolnshire-capital-punishment-a8615731.html
> 
> Next they'll bring back National Service as well.
> 
> An interesting thought. Should the Death Penalty be re-instated what would happen to existing prisoners' serving life sentences? Would they be exempt as they were found guilty before the resurrection or would they be the first to be killed?
> 
> View attachment 374805


What tripe.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> What tripe.


Yeah, but this kind of thing always brings the "hang 'em all!!!" brigade out in force...  enguin


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Yeah, but this kind of thing always brings the "hang 'em all!!!" brigade out in force...  enguin


Complete with the brilliant logic that the example he uses is of someone who was killed by the police at the scene. Amazing how these people who decry violence in others are so quick to want violence done in their name.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> What tripe.


I saw the post but thought it too ridiculous to reply to. Putting one mans view on a whole political party and then linking it to 17,410,742 UK citizens is as you say.......tripe


----------



## Arnie83

A majority of Tory voters support the death penalty according to the last figures I've seen - in the spoiler if you're interested - and the majority of Tory voters supported Brexit. There's an obvious correlation, but that's about it.

Something of a stretch to suggest that the latter will lead to reinstatement of the former. In fact I would suggest that the opposite is more likely in the short term.



Spoiler


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> A majority of Tory voters support the death penalty according to the last figures I've seen - in the spoiler if you're interested - and the majority of Tory voters supported Brexit. There's an obvious correlation, but that's about it.
> 
> Something of a stretch to suggest that the latter will lead to reinstatement of the former. In fact I would suggest that the opposite is more likely in the short term.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


The hanging comment was also ridiculous. Yeah, that's exactly how we'd do it if it came back in, in the town square at high noon. Idiots on twitter that think the world wants to hear what they think grind my gears.


----------



## Magyarmum

We might as well go the whole hog whilst we're about it and bring back flogging, the stocks, trial by water and burning at the stake.

If it wasn't for the fact that the Australians might not like it I'd suggest deporting the contents of HM prisons off to Oz!


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> The hanging comment was also ridiculous. Yeah, that's exactly how we'd do it if it came back in, in the town square at high noon. Idiots on twitter that think the world wants to hear what they think grind my gears.


I often think it's called TWIT-ter for a reason...


----------



## Elles

Hmm, so recent polls say Conservative voters are in favour of the death penalty and Remain will win a second vote? Conservatives will also win a General Election if one is held.

So does that mean Conservative voters are sensible or not?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Hmm, so recent polls say Conservative voters are in favour of the death penalty and Remain will win a second vote? Conservatives will also win a General Election if one is held.
> 
> So does that mean Conservative voters are sensible or not?


Insufficient data!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> What tripe.


Don't shoot the messenger! It wasn't me who suggested they'll attempt to resurrect the death penalty!

Yet with the obsession of bringing back everything lost including what no one could accuse the EU for this was inevitable.

I remember a National Front Party Election Broadcast in 1979 where they wanted to bring back the birch as well. Corporal Punishment was still allowed in schools at the time.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> *resurrect the death penalty*!


Pun intended? 



KittenKong said:


> . Corporal Punishment was still allowed in schools at the time.


Ah, I remember that with fondness. I was _very_ naughty at school :Shy


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

More rubbish.

No one knows who a leave voter is, let alone what they want other than to leave the Eu. Where is all this nonsense coming from and why on earth would anyone take it seriously?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> More rubbish.
> 
> No one knows who a leave voter is, let alone what they want other than to leave the Eu. Where is all this nonsense coming from and why on earth would anyone take it seriously?


I would imagine someone somewhere did a poll of some kind, which included both the questions "Did you vote Leave or Remain" and "Which of these would you like to see brought back after Brexit" - pretty easy to produce a chart like that from the results, I could do it in five minutes in Excel. 

Why on earth anyone would want incandescent light bulbs back is beyond me, though...  You might as well set fire to a fiver and be done with it!


----------



## Elles

And you think the small number of people in these polls, polls that have been proven wrong time and time again, are both representative and truthful? The polls are sensationalist claptrap imo.

ETA I don’t agree with the death penalty. Especially for serial killers like Fred West. They need studying and dissecting and for that they need to be alive.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> And you think the small number of people in these polls, polls that have been proven wrong time and time again, are both representative and truthful? The polls are sensationalist claptrap imo.


Didn't say that. No opinion poll is going to be 100% accurate and only provides a snapshot of a particular instance of time anyway*. That's why statisticians have such things as margins of error and other checks and balances which really should be published along with the poll (but would confuse the heck out of the average tabloid reader - half of them confuse the heck out of me, and Statistics made up 1/3 of my maths A Level!  )

*Aside from the opinon poll we call the Referendum, that is. Because that was 100% accurate, everyone knew exactly what they were voting for and no-one will ever change their minds, no matter what happens - and anyone who dares claim otherwise is an Enemy of the People and of Democracy  </humourous sarcasm>


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374953


Britain for All is really scraping the bottom of the barrel if that's the best they can do!

The poll was taken in February 2017 so is therefore 18 months out of date!


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> I would imagine someone somewhere did a poll of some kind, which included both the questions "Did you vote Leave or Remain" and "Which of these would you like to see brought back after Brexit"


First they just ask which way you voted. If the poll is only interested in the views of leave voters and you voted remain you just get thanked and that's the end of it. If you say you voted leave they then go on to ask the questions.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Britain for All is really scraping the bottom of the barrel if that's the best they can do!
> 
> *The poll was taken in February 2017 so is therefore 18 months out of date!*


It's completely impossible to resist pointing out that the referendum was held in June 2016 so is therefore 29 months out of date.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 374953


Is "Britain For All" another remainer group? I get confused with all the remainer groups about which group is saying what.

I just noticed the date the survey was done, last year. Nothing new then.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It's completely impossible to resist pointing out that the referendum was held in June 2016 so is therefore 29 months out of date.


And as Remainers are always reminding us all, people change their minds which could be the case with this poll.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> And you think the small number of people in these polls, polls that have been proven wrong time and time again, are both representative and truthful? The polls are sensationalist claptrap imo.


Statistically, to give a confidence level of 95% with a confidence interval of 3% and a population of 65,000,000 you need a sample size of 1067.

This data had a sample size of 2060, and the population of Leave voters was 17m. Plenty enough to give results with high confidence and low interval.

We often forget that the 2% difference between Leave and Remain is smaller than the confidence interval of many polls that put Remain ahead. If we bear that in mind when we see stuff like this, it is certainly indicative at best.

ompus

(What I noticed, though, was some of the daft things that people wanted, regardless of whether they were Leave voters or not!)


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> And as Remainers are always reminding us all, people change their minds which could be the case with this poll.


Indubitably, as with any other subject, unless Mrs May decrees that they can't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> And as Remainers are always reminding us all, people change their minds which could be the case with this poll.


I still want the UK to leave the EU so my mind is pretty made up.

The poll is dated in February 2017 that kk posted. Old information isn't a good source to use to prove people have changed their minds.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Indubitably,


I've just learnt a new word. 



> as with any other subject, unless Mrs May decrees that they can't.


As Ive said before, I would've like to have seen a bigger gap in the percentages. It was very close. It feels like Civil war.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> It feels like Civil war.


Nowhere near one. It is a war of words online. Some remainers have nowhere else to vent their annoyance that the UK voted leave but online in the hope leave voters will eventually agree with them. It will go quiet eventually.

Translated into something easier to understand. "Hot Air".


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I've just learnt a new word.
> 
> as with any other subject, unless Mrs May decrees that they can't.


As Ive said before, I would've like to have seen a bigger gap in the percentages. It was very close. It feels like Civil war. [/QUOTE]

If you remember your history, Oliver Barnier and his Brussels Sprouts, or was it Cromwell and his Roundheads tried to teach us the error of our ways without much success and we eventually left the EU ..... oops meant Commonwealth.

A potted history in case you've forgotten

https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/z8vdmp3/revision/1

Deja vu anyone?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> As I've said before, I would've like to have seen a bigger gap in the percentages. It was very close. It feels like Civil war.


I know what you mean. A decisive result would have been much easier to accept.

And one of the things that has not helped since is how some of the Tory Brexiteers have treated it as though it _was_ decisive, and have completely ignored the views of the 48% and taken the result as a mandate for the hardest Brexit imaginable. It's a big minority to treat as though they don't exist.


----------



## Elles

It’s still all a ploy to get us to accept staying in, or as near in as makes no difference. It might still backfire, but if anyone seriously thinks that TM intends the country to leave the Eu, let alone leave the Eu with no deal, imo they want their bumps felt.  :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> As Ive said before, I would've like to have seen a bigger gap in the percentages. It was very close. It feels like Civil war.
> 
> If you remember your history, Oliver Barnier and his Brussels Sprouts, or was it Cromwell and his Roundheads tried to teach us the error of our ways without much success and we eventually left the EU ..... oops meant Commonwealth.
> 
> A potted history in case you've forgotten
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/z8vdmp3/revision/1
> 
> Deja vu anyone?


I still think in terms of roundheads and cavaliers . I.m a cavalier


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Nowhere near one. It is a war of words online. Some remainers have nowhere else to vent their annoyance that the UK voted leave but online in the hope leave voters will eventually agree with them. It will go quiet eventually.
> 
> Translated into something easier to understand. "Hot Air".


Just like your fantasy that the entire UK will rejoice having come to your way of thinking.

The fight against Brexit will not end on Brexit day.

Just a little reminder, England isn't the UK. The UK currently includes Scotland and NI who didn't vote leave. England being the biggest in the UK doesn't make it better. To believe it does only causes resentment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Just like your fantasy that the entire UK will rejoice having come to your way of thinking.
> 
> The fight against Brexit will not end on Brexit day.
> 
> Just a little reminder, England isn't the UK. The UK currently includes Scotland and NI who didn't vote leave. England being the biggest in the UK doesn't make it better. To believe it does only causes resentment.


People did vote leave in NI and Scotland the overall vote included everyone in the UK and Gibraltar and believe it or not people voted leave in Gibraltar as well as England and Wales. But you are going over old ground again with no new arguement.

Edited:

























https://www.electoralcommission.org...eferendum/eu-referendum-result-visualisations

Here is the results for Gibraltar which were done seperate:

84% of Gibraltarians turned up to vote in the EU referendum.
19,322 ticked the box to remain in the EU and *823 voted to leave*.
Population of Gibraltar around 30,000.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> More rubbish.
> 
> No one knows who a leave voter is, let alone what they want other than to leave the Eu. Where is all this nonsense coming from and why on earth would anyone take it seriously?


You'll be surprised though. I've heard much of this sort of thing from many Brexiters myself and much more.

Perhaps one of the saddest reasons for voting Leave I read about in the Metro paper recently was bullfighting in Spain. Can you honestly believe that, seeing this vile UK government are keen to decriminalise fox hunting?

As with foxhunting in the UK it's up to individual countries to act, not the EU.

Imagine the uproar had the EU outlawed fox hunting and not Tony Blair's government? Likewise in Spain if the EU outlawed bullfighting.

And why do some people want to leave the EU? Surely not for leaving sake as it would be totally pointless.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The fight against Brexit will not end on Brexit day.


You make it sound as if the UK is at war with itself and it isn't. I am sorry you and some other remainers are finding it hard accepting that the majority of people voted to leave on the day of the referendum regardless of how small the majority was (and that is the crux of all this) in the biggest democratic vote in recent UK history. But there certainly isn't a fight brewing between no one over Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> You make it sound as if the UK is at war with itself and it isn't. I am sorry you and some other remainers are finding it hard accepting that the majority of people voted to leave on the day of the referendum regardless of how small the majority was (and that is the crux of all this) in the biggest democratic vote in recent UK history. But there certainly isn't a fight brewing between no one over Brexit.


I still think it's the worst thing that can happen, but we have voted leave and I have to hope it's right, but it doesn't look like it at the moment. I just hope I don't live long enough to find out how wrong leaving is.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps one of the saddest reasons for voting Leave I read about in the Metro paper recently was bullfighting in Spain.


Why is it sad? Maybe the person saying it doesn't want to be in a group that has Spain in it, because of bullfighting. They maybe don't want Spanish MEPs voting on issues that affect them, especially animal welfare issues. It's pretty similar I feel to Noushka voting Labour because they'll ban badger baiting, but not Lib Dem because they once had a coalition with the Tory party. Despite Labour being pro Brexit and Lib Dem being pro Eu. Most of us have our priorities.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Why is it sad? Maybe the person saying it doesn't want to be in a group that has Spain in it, because of bullfighting.


It's sad to see how stupid some people are, sorry but there's no other words. To think someone thinks Brexit would end Bullfighting, or at least any association with Spain that isn't hostile. What planet are some people on?!

Brexit is more likely to legalise foxhunting. Don't forget TM's Henry VIII powers.......

Perhaps the idiot is pro fox hunting as it's "British".


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Dominic Raab, leading Brexit advocate and head of DExEU

"I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."​
:Facepalm


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> . It's pretty similar I feel to Noushka voting Labour because they'll ban badger baiting, but not Lib Dem because they once had a coalition with the Tory party. Despite Labour being pro Brexit and Lib Dem being pro Eu. Most of us have our priorities.


Just having a quick scan and noticed my name being bandied about As badger baiting is already banned and this probably relates to a post I made t'other day I suspect you mean badger cull. And I'd say I was in the best position to explain what I mean, I've noticed you have a way of putting your own spin on things Elles

I said would have voted for labour to stop the badger cull alone. I could have said I would have voted labour because they would ban fracking & invest in green energy. Because the more progressive the party ,the more humane and progressive policies across the board. My priority is and always will be our living world and that is the perspective I come from when I cast my vote. I don't feel there can anything more important, & the Green Party, every environmentalist, conservationist, naturalist, green NGO warned us leaving the EU would put our environment at great risk. It would make tackling climate change harder, would mean a roll back of EU protections - would most likely lead to a free trade deal with the USA which would be a race to the bottom for standards.

And, no I would never vote libdem, it would be a wasted vote round here anyway. As I've pointed out before progressive candidates in marginal seats from one party were stepping down to give a progressive candidate from another party a better chance of beating the tory candidate so it didnt split the vote. And my vote was given to the biggest progressive party in my constituency - labour. A win for my labour mp would ensure a clear message was sent to May and her government that she did not have a mandate for her hard brexit in our area. Prior to the election she sent me a letter (filled with lies & anti corbyn/labour smears) begging me to vote for her to give her a mandate for her tory brexit. She went and lost her majority! The country told her to 'do one'! . So at the expense of the tax payer she went and bought herself her majority instead. And here we are today. And now the brextremists are claiming her hard brexit is the 'will of the people' or worse still 'no deal' is! What a bunch of dishonest shysters they are.

..


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Dominic Raab, leading Brexit advocate and head of DExEU
> 
> "I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."​
> :Facepalm



I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry

This response says it all for me.


"I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this": Dominic Raab, Brexit Secretary.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up Brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Dominic Raab, leading Brexit advocate and head of DExEU
> 
> "I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."​
> :Facepalm


:Wideyed  enguin

How on earth can anyone with any common sense NOT know that - it's only been that way for, well, centuries! (we need a head-in-hands emoticon...)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Michel Barnier was humiliated today as EU politicians rudely ignored his Brexit speech to a conference in Finland.

Members of the centre-right EPP group chatted among themselves as the Frenchman tried to deliver a stark message about the threats to the bloc's future.

At one point German MEP Manfred Weber stood up and posed for photographs right in front of Mr Barnier - while Angela Merkel walked out half way through.

The behaviour was so bad that Bulgarian PM Boyko Borisov later berated delegates from the stage, complaining that Mr Barnier was updating them on a Brexit process that 'could provoke a huge cataclysm' but they were 'not interested to hear him'.

The extraordinary situation developed at the EPP's gathering in Helsinki, attended by a slew of national leaders as well as commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and Mr Barnier.


----------



## Arnie83

Support for the People's Vote continues to grow across the UK ...

Wales:
Most voters in every constituency in Wales support the demand for the people to be given the final say on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, according to a vast new YouGov study based on polling almost 26,000 people.
The poll comes after a separate study for Cardiff University and ITV Wales showed that the nation would now back Remain if the referendum was re-run today.​
Scotland:
*MSPs have voted to express their "unequivocal support" for a referendum on the final terms of Brexit.*
Holyrood voted by 65 to 30 in favour of such a move during a debate about the impact of leaving the EU.​
And meanwhile in England:
*Vote Leave Communications Chief Backs Second Brexit Referendum*​


----------



## stockwellcat.

And meanwhile in Oxfordshire.....

I still stand by my vote for the UK to leave the EU in the original Peoples Vote on the 23rd June 2016.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Members of the centre-right EPP group chatted among themselves as the Frenchman tried to deliver a stark message about the threats to the bloc's future.


I searched for a transcript of the speech and thought I'd found it but I'm not so sure - couldn't find a version (in either French or an English translation) which suggests Brexit being anything to do with a 'stark message about_ threats_ to the blocs's future'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> I searched for a transcript of the speech and thought I'd found it but I'm not so sure - couldn't find a version (in either French or an English translation) which suggests Brexit being anything to do with a 'stark message about_ threats_ to the blocs's future'.


Try typing Brexit News in the search engine and the article will come up from the relevant newspaper.


----------



## Elles

Yeah sorry @noushka05 I meant badger culls. My point is people might think voting for Labour despite their pro Brexit stance is as strange as voting to leave the Eu because of bullfighting. I don't see anything wrong with either decision. Voting to leave the Eu as part of a racist agenda would be horrible, voting to leave the Eu because you don't agree with being part of a group whose membership has bullfighting and whose MEPs have influence, I don't see anything wrong with personally.

You just think I have an agenda, I try to see both sides and keep some kind of optimism. I usually find myself siding with the minority, as leave voters are in the minority here and I think they have valid concerns.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Try typing Brexit News in the search engine and the article will come up from the relevant newspaper


The whole point was to find the speech which led to a newspaper article. There's more in the speech than Brexit and nothing in the part to do with Brexit which suggests it creates stark threats.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> The whole point was to find the speech which led to a newspaper article. There's more in the speech than Brexit and nothing in the part to do with Brexit which suggests it creates stark threats.


I don't think the transcript has been released yet - maybe tomorrow. You can normally find transcripts on the europa.eu website.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> I searched for a transcript of the speech and thought I'd found it but I'm not so sure - couldn't find a version (in either French or an English translation) which suggests Brexit being anything to do with a 'stark message about_ threats_ to the blocs's future'.


No one was paying attention as the article says. Try europa.eu tomorrow.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> People did vote leave in NI and Scotland the overall vote included everyone in the UK and Gibraltar and believe it or not people voted leave in Gibraltar as well as England and Wales. But you are going over old ground again with no new arguement.
> 
> Edited:
> View attachment 374987
> 
> View attachment 374988
> 
> View attachment 374991
> 
> 
> https://www.electoralcommission.org...eferendum/eu-referendum-result-visualisations
> 
> Here is the results for Gibraltar which were done seperate:
> 
> 84% of Gibraltarians turned up to vote in the EU referendum.
> 19,322 ticked the box to remain in the EU and *823 voted to leave*.
> Population of Gibraltar around 30,000.


823 out of 30 000 . Says it all. Bob Geldof came to congratulate us on common sense.
Just to remind you - we have a few oddballs here, but statistically we did all right.
Plus 84% turn out says a lot too.

Plus 99% voted to stay British so it is very clear Gibraltar knows their mind.
Most clearly one may wish to be British and be in EU.

I bet that in any EU country you will find a few% voters who in such referendum will vote out.

Or vote that Earth is flat if asked. Some like to go against the facts no matter what.

100% options only available in North Korea and similar dictatorships.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yeah sorry @noushka05 I meant badger culls. My point is people might think voting for Labour despite their pro Brexit stance is as strange as voting to leave the Eu because of bullfighting. I don't see anything wrong with either decision. Voting to leave the Eu as part of a racist agenda would be horrible, voting to leave the Eu because you don't agree with being part of a group whose membership has bullfighting and whose MEPs have influence, I don't see anything wrong with personally.
> 
> You just think I have an agenda, I try to see both sides and keep some kind of optimism. I usually find myself siding with the minority, as leave voters are in the minority here and I think they have valid concerns.


Then I doubt UK right wing MEPs would object to Bullfighting anyway, especially with their support for fox hunting. Would be hypocritical of them to condemn one "traditional" blood sport in one country yet vow to overturn the Hunting with Dogs etc. Act in their own country anyway.

Frankly, I don't know where Labour stand over the badger cull policy. If they were against that then I could understand people voting for them despite their stance on Brexit.

Then, speaking for myself I would consider it wrong for me to vote for any party that endorses Brexit which unfortunately means Labour for as long as they back it.

I find it very hard to forgive the Lib Dems over their coalition with the Tories but I think it's time to move on from that. No, I'm not saying I support them but this is important to consider for those Tory/Liberal areas where Labour don't stand a chance of winning.

To still condemn the Lib Dems for their disastrous coalition would be like refusing to back Labour through memories of the Iraq war.

I only wish I could vote for the SNP. I could if I was 50 miles further north!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> People did vote leave in NI and Scotland the overall vote included everyone in the UK and Gibraltar and believe it or not people voted leave in Gibraltar as well as England and Wales. But you are going over old ground again with no new arguement.


Oh, come on! Of course some in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted leave. The majority voting for remain in these countries was decisive however rather than divisive.

A comment from Scotland via the 58% FB page.


----------



## KittenKong

More gross incompetence from the Theresa May Nasti Party.

They should've ensured adequate warehouse space. After all stockpiling is the, "Will of the people".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46127592


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh, come on! Of course some in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted leave. The majority voting for remain in these countries was decisive however rather than divisive.


The point is this not everyone wanted to remain on referendum day and the vote in Northern Ireland was very close if you look at the stats. The only place that was decisive with an 84% vote to remain was Gibraltar Scotland did have this majority nor did Northern Ireland.

I see the North East of England overall voted to leave on the Electoral Commissions website.

The referendum happened and the UK is on the verge of leaving the EU. I am sorry it wasn't the result you wanted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Diane Abbot warned those that want a peoples vote last night on QT to be careful what they wish for as people who voted leave last time would do so again.


----------



## KittenKong

This rather confirms what I've been thinking for a long time.










https://politicaluk.co.uk/2018/11/g...t-0ahuwBg1MEkk79vC3zbSQcjupD53a9fy-dmd_lQILSY

"Hail Theresa"??? Hmmm..... If the " A" was changed to another vowel.....


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Diane Abbot warned those that want a peoples vote last night on QT to be careful what they wish for as people who voted leave last time would do so again


Which is fine because this time at least they know what they'd be voting for.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yeah sorry @noushka05 I meant badger culls. My point is people might think voting for Labour despite their pro Brexit stance is as strange as voting to leave the Eu because of bullfighting. I don't see anything wrong with either decision. Voting to leave the Eu as part of a racist agenda would be horrible, voting to leave the Eu because you don't agree with being part of a group whose membership has bullfighting and whose MEPs have influence, I don't see anything wrong with personally.
> 
> You just think I have an agenda, I try to see both sides and keep some kind of optimism. I usually find myself siding with the minority, as leave voters are in the minority here and I think they have valid concerns.


 Voters opposed to tory hard brexit voted to prevent May getting her mandate for hard brexit - so voting tactically for labour in certain seats was a logical move. I'm sure leave voters voted leave for many different reasons. Some voted for the £350 million for our NHS for example. Also like the Trump win, right wing populist nationalism whipped up by the likes of Farage & the leave campaign played a major factor in the result. On the subject of bullfighting, contrary to what a lot leave voters believe Spain is a sovereign country so makes its own laws. Do leave voters want the EU 'meddling' with in a sovereign countries laws or not? I thought not

Personally I would be ecstatic if an EU law could ban bullfighting - ban ALL bloodsports in every EU country!.

You might be taking sides, but I'm critically evaluating all the information to reach my conclusions, I'm not taking anyone's side. Anyone looking objectively can see brexit is already a disaster and when we leave its going to get a whole lot worse. Brexiters will be forced to face reality then. I would like them to realise that before its too late.



KittenKong said:


> Then I doubt UK right wing MEPs would object to Bullfighting anyway, especially with their support for fox hunting. Would be hypocritical of them to condemn one "traditional" blood sport in one country yet vow to overturn the Hunting with Dogs etc. Act in their own country anyway.
> 
> Frankly, I don't know where Labour stand over the badger cull policy. If they were against that then I could understand people voting for them despite their stance on Brexit.
> 
> Then, speaking for myself I would consider it wrong for me to vote for any party that endorses Brexit which unfortunately means Labour for as long as they back it.
> 
> I find it very hard to forgive the Lib Dems over their coalition with the Tories but I think it's time to move on from that. No, I'm not saying I support them but this is important to consider for those Tory/Liberal areas where Labour don't stand a chance of winning.
> 
> To still condemn the Lib Dems for their disastrous coalition would be like refusing to back Labour through memories of the Iraq war.
> 
> I only wish I could vote for the SNP. I could if I was 50 miles further north!


 I wonder how many people who voted leave because of bullfighting voted for tory/ukip MEPs? I wonder how many leave voters are fans of this odious cretin?

*Boris Johnson backs bullfighting in Spain and says ban is 'political correctness gone mad'*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-political-correctness-gone-mad-a8049516.html

Labour have always strongly opposed the badger cull.

Labour wont back the tories blind brexit & any brexit must past their six tests which I believe will mean soft/no brexit.

Vince Cable recently said the libdems wouldn't rule out going into coalition with the tories again That said, I accept your point on backing the libdems in seats where they have the best chance to beat the tories. I think all progressives must vote tactically.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Which is fine because this time at least they know what they'd be voting for.


The same as last time. To leave the EU. But some remainers would still not accept that as a result if it was voted for again or how close the margines would be.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The same as last time. To leave the EU. But some remainers would still not accept that as a result if it was voted for again or how close the margines would be.


Then why are afraid of another vote?

UK, Survation poll:

EU membership referendum Age:

Vote Remain (%)

Total: 54% (+6)

18-24: 77% (+8)

25-34: 67% (+9)

35-44: 60% (+9)

45-54: 50% (+5)

55-64: 47% (+2)

65-74: 41% (-1)

75+: 36% (-2)

+/- compared with 2016

Sample size: 20,086 
Field work: 20/10/18 -02/11/18


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> Which is fine because this time at least they know what they'd be voting for.


I knew what I was voting for last time


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I knew what I was voting for last time


But did you really know the consequences of leaving the EMA, Euratom, the singe market & customs union when you voted? Did you vote knowing leaving these structures would have a terrible impact on the lives of millions of people?


----------



## noushka05

Anyone fancy a laugh this morning?

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Then why are afraid of another vote?
> 
> UK, Survation poll:
> 
> EU membership referendum Age:
> 
> Vote Remain (%)
> 
> Total: 54% (+6)
> 
> 18-24: 77% (+8)
> 
> 25-34: 67% (+9)
> 
> 35-44: 60% (+9)
> 
> 45-54: 50% (+5)
> 
> 55-64: 47% (+2)
> 
> 65-74: 41% (-1)
> 
> 75+: 36% (-2)
> 
> +/- compared with 2016
> 
> Sample size: 20,086
> Field work: 20/10/18 -02/11/18


Did they ask any leave voters? Doubt it.


----------



## havoc

rona said:


> I knew what I was voting for last time


That's great rona - could you tell the rest of us exactly what the deal is please, including TM because she doesn't appear to have it ironed out yet.


----------



## Jesthar

From the Guardian yesterday:

 
* Hundreds of environment agency staff redirected to work on Brexit *

Hundreds of staff who protect biodiversity and enforce environmental regulations in the UK have been redeployed to work on Brexit.

The raid on staff from the Environment Agency, which is responsible for enforcing rules on recycling, air pollution and protecting the country from flooding, and Natural England, which protects habitats and species, has been condemned by MPs.

Mary Creagh, chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, on Thursday published a letter from the environment secretary, Michael Gove, which reveals 400 staff have been moved from these agencies to work centrally on Brexit.

The staff moves come as the Department for Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) rushes to prepare for a no-deal Brexit, which will have a particular impact on dairy and chemical exports.

Gove's letter says some of the enforcement and protection work the staff do will be reallocated or paused for now, raising fears that vulnerable habitats and species are being left unprotected because of the chaos over Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...j83P-JOUSHMUV3TAaqH1FkHAC1kIN5Tny44WGDxAGqNus


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I knew what I was voting for last time


Many people, I'm sure, knew exactly what they, personally, wanted from a 'leave' vote. What we have never known is what the diverse 'wants' actually were; all we have is the single word 'Leave'. Some would have voted for a reduction in immigration, some for more money for the NHS, some for completely free trade deals with the US, China and India, and some for the freedom to remove business or environmental regulations with which they disagree, and so on.

What we cannot know is whether the deal (once it has been presented) delivers what they actually had in mind.

Is it not reasonable to ask you and them "Is this what you voted for"? Otherwise, how are we to know?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Did they ask any leave voters? Doubt it.


Oh come _on_...

If they hadn't asked any leave voters, then all the age categories would be scored as 100% (+/- 0%) - that's basic maths.


----------



## rona

Anyone who thought this would be sorted in 2 years when it took more than 20 years to get so embroiled, needs their bumps felt.
The system is so corrupt that this is just the first step on a very long journey. A journey that may not be completed in my lifetime but the first step in the struggle for the ordinary man


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Anyone who thought this would be sorted in 2 years when it took more than 20 years to get so embroiled, needs their bumps felt.
> *The system is so corrupt *that this is just the first step on a very long journey. A journey that may not be completed in my lifetime but the first step in the struggle for the ordinary man


Could you expand on what you mean by this?


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

*Brexit FIRST*
1 hr · 
POLL IS CLOSED.. NO MORE VOTE ALLOWED..

BREXIT WINS 90%.... WELL DONE ALL PATRIOTS...

SHARE IF YOU LOVE GOOD OLD BRITISH CHIPPPIES,.. AND TO SHOW YOURFRIENDS BRITISH PEOPLE STILL WANT BREXIT...!!!!

38 Comments
2 shares
2424
LikeShow More Reactions
CommentShare


----------



## Magyarmum

and sometimes you have to laugh!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 375184





Magyarmum said:


> *Brexit FIRST*
> 1 hr ·
> POLL IS CLOSED.. NO MORE VOTE ALLOWED..
> 
> BREXIT WINS 90%.... WELL DONE ALL PATRIOTS...
> 
> SHARE IF YOU LOVE GOOD OLD BRITISH CHIPPPIES,.. AND TO SHOW YOURFRIENDS BRITISH PEOPLE STILL WANT BREXIT...!!!!
> 
> 38 Comments
> 2 shares
> 2424
> LikeShow More Reactions
> CommentShare


WOW, really relevant polls there. The whole site had 294 members :Smuggrin


----------



## KittenKong

"We know what we voted for"....


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> *Brexit FIRST*
> 1 hr ·
> POLL IS CLOSED.. NO MORE VOTE ALLOWED..
> 
> BREXIT WINS 90%.... WELL DONE ALL PATRIOTS...
> 
> SHARE IF YOU LOVE GOOD OLD BRITISH CHIPPPIES,.. AND TO SHOW YOURFRIENDS BRITISH PEOPLE STILL WANT BREXIT...!!!!
> 
> 38 Comments
> 2 shares
> 2424
> LikeShow More Reactions
> CommentShare


That HAS to be a satire page, surely?!? The English is atrocious, the posts ridiculous, and now they're wittering on about their poll being 'hacked' by 'remoaners' and it should really show 90% FOR Brexit, not against! 

Best laugh I've had in ages


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Then why are afraid of another vote?
> 
> UK, Survation poll:
> 
> EU membership referendum Age:
> 
> Vote Remain (%)
> 
> Total: 54% (+6)
> 
> 18-24: 77% (+8)
> 
> 25-34: 67% (+9)
> 
> 35-44: 60% (+9)
> 
> 45-54: 50% (+5)
> 
> 55-64: 47% (+2)
> 
> 65-74: 41% (-1)
> 
> 75+: 36% (-2)
> 
> +/- compared with 2016
> 
> Sample size: 20,086
> Field work: 20/10/18 -02/11/18


Um, isn't this overall result very similar to what the opinion polls said would be the result of the referendum??

That was wrong, what makes this different?


----------



## Arnie83

Today, Radio 4
John Humphrys: "If we do have some sort of agreement should it be put to the people of this country in another referendum?"

David Davis: "The people have already decided."​
2012
David Davis: "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy".​


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> That HAS to be a satire page, surely?!? The English is atrocious, the posts ridiculous, and now they're wittering on about their poll being 'hacked' by 'remoaners' and it should really show 90% FOR Brexit, not against!
> 
> Best laugh I've had in ages


I've no idea! I only posted it in response to King Kong's post. Perhaps you should ask him because he seemed to take it seriously



KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 375184


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> What we cannot know is whether the deal (once it has been presented) delivers what they actually had in mind.
> 
> Is it not reasonable to ask you and them "Is this what you voted for"? Otherwise, how are we to know?


There seems to be an assumption that voting on the deal is only about attempting to reverse the referendum. It's far more important than that and leave voters have as much to gain or lose if it's just thrust upon them. What if we effectively remain in all but name - would that suit those who want to leave? If not shouldn't they be heard?


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Um, isn't this overall result very similar to what the opinion polls said would be the result of the referendum??
> 
> That was wrong, what makes this different?


The last Survation poll before the referendum had Remain ahead 45 - 44, so it's a bit different. Certainly some polls pre-referendum had very similar results to the recent one.

From my point of view, though, if a referendum is held once the actual offered Brexit deal is available, and the People accept it, or for whatever peculiar reason choose No Deal, then so be it. At least they will (or should) be aware of what their vote will mean.


----------



## havoc

And there goes another one
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/tory-minister-jo-johnson-quits-government-brexit-160007489.html


----------



## Arnie83

Serendipitously, in the last few minutes ...

*Minister Jo Johnson quits over Brexit and calls for new vote*

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".​
That's going to make Christmas in the Boris household interesting!

Edit: Beat me to it @havoc !


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Serendipitously, in the last few minutes ...
> 
> *Minister Jo Johnson quits over Brexit and calls for new vote*
> 
> The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".
> 
> It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".​
> That's going to make Christmas in the Boris household interesting!
> 
> Edit: Beat me to it @havoc !


More on this as reported by the BBC:


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> That HAS to be a satire page, surely?!? The English is atrocious, the posts ridiculous, and now they're wittering on about their poll being 'hacked' by 'remoaners' and it should really show 90% FOR Brexit, not against!
> 
> Best laugh I've had in ages


I wondered that, but is akin to the kind of thing I've seen in The Sun's letters page, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's genuine. They certainly use tabloid terms such as, "Remoaners". No prizes for their source of information....

This fleece was, as I understand it, promoted by a pro Brexit source.

It speaks for itself, "Were #1".
Soon to become, " We're #3" as a third country no doubt....


----------



## stockwellcat.

View attachment 375188



KittenKong said:


> .


I don't like things you say much on your posts but I do like it when you make a point like this


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 375211
> View attachment 375212
> View attachment 375213


Where are you finding these?

That one has a grand total of 336 members. Not exactly representative


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Where are you finding these?
> 
> That one has a grand total of 336 members. Not exactly representative


You beat me to it ..... talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel!

Are you really that desperate KK?


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Where are you finding these?
> 
> That one has a grand total of 336 members. Not exactly representative


Looks like twitter or facebook groups. I am only guessing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You beat me to it ..... talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel!
> 
> Are you really that desperate KK?


It's called desperation as they are running out of arguements for their cause. It's either this or visit old ground and repeat themselves.


----------



## Magyarmum

I've just come across this which IMO makes for interesting reading.

https://www.sherlockcomms.com/brexit/


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 375211
> View attachment 375212
> View attachment 375213


Silly, but fun.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I've just come across this which IMO makes for interesting reading.
> 
> https://www.sherlockcomms.com/brexit/


Had a skim through this and a very interesting study.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I've just come across this which IMO makes for interesting reading.
> 
> https://www.sherlockcomms.com/brexit/


It does make for interesting reading indeed (though I admit I have mostly looked at the graph bits!)

I think some of it might come down to interpretation. E.g.

Do you think the UK will be stronger when it comes to negotiating a trade deal with your government alone than it would be as part of the EU?
Certainly, the UK's voice will be louder on its own than as one of 27, but I'm confused how a country of 65 million people can be 'stronger' than a bloc of c. 500 million, and none of the countries seems to think that there will be a significant difference in the overall amount of trade they do with the UK (from the 'Intent to Purchase' results.)

Overall though I guess it's hard to argue that the UK will have more individual 'power' than it would as part of a group, so if that's what makes people feel good about themselves, then fine.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Is this man stupid or what?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...yn-labour-party-eu-leave-remain-a8626871.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Is this man stupid or what?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...yn-labour-party-eu-leave-remain-a8626871.html
> 
> View attachment 375266
> View attachment 375267
> View attachment 375268


Corbyn has always wanted to leave the EU. It makes me wonder whether the state intervention he has planned is even more extensive than Labour are officially proposing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Is this man stupid or what?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...yn-labour-party-eu-leave-remain-a8626871.html
> 
> View attachment 375266
> View attachment 375267
> View attachment 375268


Labour said in there Conference they would prefer a General Election and this is there prefered option. It's a known fact the Leadership of Labour want to pursue a Labour Brexit and only a few of the Labour MP's are pushing for 2nd Referendum. With the Leadership persuing a Labour Brexit it would bring the negotiations with the EU back to square one. You do know that Labours Brexit idea is more chaotic than the Conservatives one and Labours Brexit idea to stay in the Customs Union and negotiate the UK's own trade deals is a big fat lie as you cannot do this being a member of either the Single Market or Customs Union.

I knew that Corbyn would dash remainers hopes with a second referendum pledge at his conference and he has done exactly that, he backed down on this pledge at the Labour Conference announcing he would prefer a General Election. He is power hungry and his goal is to get into power through a desperately wanted General Election. Corbyn isn't interested in a 2nd Referendum as Labour backs leaving the EU but on there terms.

I hate to tell you this, the Labour Party itself is in chaos and it's chances of winning a General Election are very slim. Holding a General Election right now would make Labour unelectable for another decade at least.

I have no confidence in the Labour Party at all at the moment. Not with Corbyn and co at the helm.


----------



## Arnie83

A snippet from a Grauniad report, with an interesting last sentence ...

The European commission, meanwhile, is expected to ramp up its no-deal plans in the coming days, given the growing volatility in Westminster. *It will also publish legislation on exempting UK nationals from its visa requirements as a third country.*​
There were a few posts recently exploring the possibility of costly visas; this suggests that that is being sensibly addressed.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> A snippet from a Grauniad report, with an interesting last sentence ...
> 
> The European commission, meanwhile, is expected to ramp up its no-deal plans in the coming days, given the growing volatility in Westminster. *It will also publish legislation on exempting UK nationals from its visa requirements as a third country.*​
> There were a few posts recently exploring the possibility of costly visas; this suggests that that is being sensibly addressed.


See my posts #3178 and #3198 which laid out all the reasons why visas were a bad and costly idea,

Pure common sense and I hope the report you quote is correct.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> A snippet from a Grauniad report, with an interesting last sentence ...
> 
> The European commission, meanwhile, is expected to ramp up its no-deal plans in the coming days, given the growing volatility in Westminster. *It will also publish legislation on exempting UK nationals from its visa requirements as a third country.*​
> There were a few posts recently exploring the possibility of costly visas; this suggests that that is being sensibly addressed.


Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed of course. I don't expect the EU will be so generous towards UK citizens after Brexit unless May agrees the same.

We'll wait and see.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed of course. I don't expect the EU will be so generous towards UK citizens after Brexit unless May agrees the same.
> 
> We'll wait and see.


We will of course.

But while there's been a lot of absolute nonsense spouted about the EU 'punishing' the UK for leaving, I think this would rightly be seen as unnecessarily antagonistic.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> There were a few posts recently exploring the possibility of costly visas; this suggests that that is being sensibly addressed.


I've never known visas be particularly expensive - maybe adding around £100 or so onto the cost of a family holiday.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> I've never known visas be particularly expensive - maybe adding around £100 or so onto the cost of a family holiday.


Can imagine visas will cost us the same as other non- EU citizens pay? 
Just look for example what Russians pay etc... We will be treated the same not worse not better... 
Easy to find out what others pay.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Can imagine visas will cost us the same as other non- EU citizens pay?
> Just look for example what Russians pay etc... We will be treated the same not worse not better...
> Easy to find out what others pay.[/QUOTE
> 
> What have Russians got to do with anything????????????
> 
> A Shengen Visa which is presumably what Brits might (or might not) have to apply for, costs the same irrespective of the country you're from!
> 
> https://travelvisabookings.com/schengen-visa-russian-citizens/
> 
> https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-fee/


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> [/QUOTE


Is this code?


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Is this code?


No!

My reply got swallowed up by CS's quote! This is what I wrote .....

What have Russians got to do with anything????????????

A Shengen Visa which is presumably what Brits might (or might not) have to apply for, costs the same irrespective of the country you're from!

https://travelvisabookings.com/schengen-visa-russian-citizens/

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-fee/


----------



## Zaros

Without the EU...

Yor all going to b prtty mch fckd!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 375477
> View attachment 375478


Well at least you're doing a little better than before - this one's got 8111 followers!

Keep up the good work - you never know one day your might just get there!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 375478


I wonder who told him that, because I find it very unlikely for a number of reasons.

Who actually writes the Tory manifesto anyway?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder who told him that, because I find it very unlikely for a number of reasons.
> 
> Who actually writes the Tory manifesto anyway?


A GE is more likely than a PV I reckon. May will take advantage of Corbyn's appalling position in the polls when Labour should be way ahead.

A campaign of, "Project Fear" on rejecting May's Brexit plan will be fuelled in the Tory press and media.
Only "Mother" Theresa would prevent that by giving her a mandate to back her Chequers plan.

The masses will probably fall for that as they always do.


----------



## KittenKong

They'll blame the EU and the "Remoaners" for not getting behind Theresa May and their country.

Oh, wait a minute. Seems the Brexiters' aren't getting behind her either!!!








https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-brexit-blame-game-has-already-begun-9flhvjrr0


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> No!
> 
> My reply got swallowed up by CS's quote! This is what I wrote .....
> 
> What have Russians got to do with anything????????????
> 
> A Shengen Visa which is presumably what Brits might (or might not) have to apply for, costs the same irrespective of the country you're from!
> 
> https://travelvisabookings.com/schengen-visa-russian-citizens/
> 
> https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-fee/


I said " for example " possibly because I know how my Russian friends complain about the visas every year they come here... 
Also said " any non EU country " and I meant that Britain will not be singled out to pay extra but neither to get any special discount.

Clear now?


----------



## KittenKong

Jeezus, he's sounding more like Theresa May every day.

Not a ******** chance will I get behind Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Jeezus, he's sounding more like Theresa May every day.
> 
> Not a ******** chance will I get behind Brexit.
> 
> View attachment 375539


Roughly half the country want to stay in the EU. Roughly half want to leave, with different factions having very different ideas about what that means. And he thinks we're going to heed a call to come together. Not Pygmalion likely.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Good few words from Keir Stammer in Sunday Times, absolutely spot on. May Deal or No Deal are not the only options, all she wants is a deal that her cabinet can agree on, no matter if it is going to be good for economy or the people.

David Miliband considering comeback to start a new centrist party.

About the time me thinks....

So done with the Tories, the Blairites, the Corbynists, Lib Dems spineless insipidity...


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Roughly half the country want to stay in the EU. Roughly half want to leave, with different factions having very different ideas about what that means. And he thinks we're going to heed a call to come together. Not Pygmalion likely.


How does anyone think it's ever going to happen? Meanwhile those who wish to move this country towards extremes (either way, left or right) are rubbing their hands together and waiting their moment. Some have played their hands a bit too soon admittedly.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> How does anyone think it's ever going to happen? Meanwhile those who wish to move this country towards extremes (either way, left or right) are rubbing their hands together and waiting their moment. Some have played their hands a bit too soon admittedly.


At one extreme we've got Rees-Mogg & co promoting the pure capitalist economics of Minford - do away with all tariffs and quotas, let old and inefficient industries fail (like farming and manufacturing!), let workers retrain as baristas and digital technicians, and if they can't we've got those 'uplifting' food banks.

At the other you've got Corbyn hoping to sneak into power past the internecine Tory factions, who wants to embark on a socialist experiment in an ever more global world, by borrowing and spending half a trillion pounds during a significant economic downturn.

Theresa May looks almost sane compared to both options except that her plan is acknowledged by all and sundry as worse than what we've got now and for no gain whatsoever.

And who else is there? It's Great Uncle Vince!

I'm beginning to think we're doomed.


----------



## havoc

What we're going to need above all else as we stand alone on the world stage is a 'statesman' (general term to cover all genders). No sign of such a thing so far. The nearest I've seen, putting aside party politics, is Keir Starmer and there's no way the Labour party would have the sense to use him.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> What we're going to need above all else as we stand alone on the world stage is a 'statesman' (general term to cover all genders). No sign of such a thing so far. The nearest I've seen, putting aside party politics, is Keir Starmer and there's no way the Labour party would have the sense to use him.


There are some sensible (I'm biased) reasonable (I'm still biased) politicians in both Tory and Labour parties. They just need to get together, sweep up what's left of the LibDems, get into a coalition of the centre with the Greens and the SNP, get into power via an electoral pact, enact Proportional Representation to replace the increasingly anachronistic and damaging First Past The Post system, and off we go on a new journey.

(One, incidentally, where we are within the EU, and engaging constructively with the rest, which means making a bloody nuisance of ourselves until we get some changes such as reform of CAP and a more socially sensitive interpretation of freedom of movement, among others.)

((Arnie for Pres!))


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> There are some sensible (I'm biased) reasonable (I'm still biased) politicians in both Tory and Labour parties. They just need to get together, sweep up what's left of the LibDems, get into a coalition of the centre with the Greens and the SNP, get into power via an electoral pact, enact Proportional Representation to replace the increasingly anachronistic and damaging First Past The Post system, and off we go on a new journey.
> 
> (One, incidentally, where we are within the EU, and engaging constructively with the rest, which means making a bloody nuisance of ourselves until we get some changes such as reform of CAP and a more socially sensitive interpretation of freedom of movement, among others.)
> 
> ((Arnie for Pres!))


As I mentioned already ST published some rumours David Miliband might have his Secong Coming to put together a new centrist party, fail that to pull the sword out of the stone...

I agree there are decent people in all our parties, Starmer , Bercow , Clarke and so on... put them together.
None of the extremes will do, hope Britain will wake up to see it...
I never seen such a bunch of maggots scrambling for power as right now.

Buffoons, arrogant, demagogues, self serving, traitors


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> There are some sensible (I'm biased) reasonable (I'm still biased) politicians in both Tory and Labour parties. They just need to get together, sweep up what's left of the LibDems, get into a coalition of the centre with the Greens and the SNP, get into power via an electoral pact, enact Proportional Representation to replace the increasingly anachronistic and damaging First Past The Post system, and off we go on a new journey.
> 
> ((Arnie for Pres!))


Well if that works out, Brexit really would have been for the best, whether we end up staying in or not.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Well if that works out, Brexit really would have been for the best, whether we end up staying in or not.


Not holding my breath though.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...mplant-uk-employees-with-microchips?CMP=fb_gu










I'll say no more on this....


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/technol...mplant-uk-employees-with-microchips?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> View attachment 375589
> 
> 
> I'll say no more on this....


Not quite sure I can see an obvious Brexit link ... ?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/technol...mplant-uk-employees-with-microchips?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> View attachment 375589
> 
> 
> I'll say no more on this....


Not sure what this has to do with Brexit ..... shrugs!!!!!!

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/microchipping-workers-moral-practical-legal-implications/

*Microchipping workers: What are the moral, practical and legal implications?*


----------



## Elles

Lol. So offering the option of a microchip to start your car, or open your door is micromanaging employees. I wouldn’t mind, I’m always losing my keys. Though I hope they can be reprogrammed if you move house, get a new job, or buy a new car, rather than having to dig around to get them back out. I also don’t know what it has to do with Brexit.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/technol...mplant-uk-employees-with-microchips?CMP=fb_gu
> 
> View attachment 375589
> 
> 
> I'll say no more on this....


Already in use in Sweden and Germany and been discussed by the EU 
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/614209/IPOL_STU(2018)614209_EN.pdf


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Already in use in Sweden and Germany and been discussed by the EU
> http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/614209/IPOL_STU(2018)614209_EN.pdf


Interesting. Thank you.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> So offering the option of a microchip to start your car, or open your door is micromanaging employees.


It amounts to compulsory surgery. I can't see the need for an implanted microchip being a huge selling point with a car when fingerprint recognition works perfectly well. I find it quite horrific that such a thing could become a requirement to getting a job.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> *It amounts to compulsory surgery*. I can't see the need for an implanted microchip being a huge selling point with a car when fingerprint recognition works perfectly well. I find it quite horrific that such a thing could become a requirement to getting a job.


Ah, now I see the Brexit link.

We're being forcibly excised from the EU and it's going to get bloody!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Lol. So offering the option of a microchip to start your car, or open your door is micromanaging employees. I wouldn't mind, I'm always losing my keys. Though I hope they can be reprogrammed if you move house, get a new job, or buy a new car, rather than having to dig around to get them back out. I also don't know what it has to do with Brexit.


Perhaps it hasn't anything to do with Brexit, but under existing Human Rights legislation which is set to end next March who's to say employers' won't force this amongst their staff?

It's also a good way for Theresa May to personally monitor everyone. In addition she could target those not deemed "British" on checking profiles.

In the late stage of the last Labour government there was an uproar about the ID card proposals.

Yet people believe it's ok for people to be microchipped in a post Brexit environment under the Tories?!

Incredible.


----------



## Elles

I didn’t see anything wrong with ID cards either, if it meant one card covered everything. I don’t think after taxes the government is particularly interested in what I do though.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps it hasn't anything to do with Brexit, but under existing Human Rights legislation which is set to end next March who's to say employers' won't force this amongst their staff?


Don't be ridiculous. You read too many papers and extremist sites



Elles said:


> I didn't see anything wrong with ID cards either, if it meant one card covered everything. I don't think after taxes the government is particularly interested in what I do though.


You didn't? I hate the thought, I don't have cards because they are tracking devices


----------



## Elles

I’m not important enough for anyone to track. If they want to, I have phone, gps, iPad and debit cards, an ID card that covered everything would be great.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, now I see the Brexit link.
> 
> We're being forcibly excised from the EU and it's going to get bloody!


It very well might once we lose any protections if we end up with any extremist government. The reaction on here that it would be fine with some shows how easily people could accept it. We're already perfectly happy for supermarkets to track our shopping habits and sell that information on, still amazes me how easily people were conned into that so I guess 24/7 tracking with implanted devices may not be so far off.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I'm not important enough for anyone to track.


And yet you are being.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I'm not important enough for anyone to track. If they want to, I have phone, gps, iPad and debit cards, an ID card that covered everything would be great.


I have none of those when I go out. I take the phone but GPS is turned off, it's a very old phone not an iphone. Sometimes I just turn the phone off too. 
I know I'm followed on the internet, and there's now a couple of cameras on my way out of town, but once I'm out, I can rarely be tracked


----------



## Elles

I don’t care about supermarkets tracking my shopping habits either. Good, they can see someone who doesn't buy anything meat or dairy based and avoids palm oil. No one picked me as an individual to track. If you walk past my house, my own cctv might pick you up and track you. I’m not tracking you and I don’t care who you are, unless you break into my house or car. If I get kidnapped and murdered, I hope I am tracked and that the person who did it was tracked too.

I seriously don’t care about it. 

Telling me what to do and spying on me to make sure I do it, would be something entirely different.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I don't care about supermarkets tracking my shopping habits either


What if those shopping habits being recorded and sold on affect your credit rating, the price you pay for insurance etc?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> *I didn't see anything wrong with ID cards either,* if it meant one card covered everything. I don't think after taxes the government is particularly interested in what I do though.


 I still think they are a good idea. I can't understand why people are against them.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps it hasn't anything to do with Brexit, but under existing Human Rights legislation which is set to end next March who's to say employers' won't force this amongst their staff?
> 
> It's also a good way for Theresa May to personally monitor everyone. In addition she could target those not deemed "British" on checking profiles.
> 
> In the late stage of the last Labour government there was an uproar about the ID card proposals.
> 
> Yet people believe it's ok for people to be microchipped in a post Brexit environment under the Tories?!
> 
> Incredible.


Okay, let's not get carried away here!

Human Rights legislation doesn't end next March even if Brexit goes ahead. The Human Rights Act and the ECHR is not part of the EU. May was actually going to bin it anyway and replace it with a British Bill of [human] Rights but dropped the plan.

And while I have little time for May, I think you're getting just a tad paranoid in ascribing to her a desire to target people not "deemed British".


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I have none of those when I go out. I take the phone but GPS is turned off, it's a very old phone not an iphone. Sometimes I just turn the phone off too.
> I know I'm followed on the internet, and there's now a couple of cameras on my way out of town, but *once I'm out, I can rarely be tracked*


That sounds like a challenge! layful


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> What if those shopping habits being recorded and sold on affect your credit rating, the price you pay for insurance etc?


Why would they? How many people sign guarantee cards, sign up to discount cards, surf the Internet? You don't need a microchip or an ID card to monitor people's shopping habits if they have them. So an ID card, or a microchip is unlikely to make any difference. People will have to try harder if they want to be off the grid these days.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Okay, let's not get carried away here!
> 
> Human Rights legislation doesn't end next March even if Brexit goes ahead. The Human Rights Act and the ECHR is not part of the EU. May was actually going to bin it anyway and replace it with a British Bill of [human] Rights but dropped the plan.
> 
> And while I have little time for May, I think you're getting just a tad paranoid in ascribing to her a desire to target people not "deemed British".


But hasn't May done exactly that with the Windrush generation?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> But hasn't May done exactly that with the Windrush generation?


The treatment of the Windrush generation, under her policy of a hostile environment, I think has been awful. But I think that's a distinct step away from a policy of forcibly microchipping people as a way of targeting those she deems not to be British.

We're getting further and further away from Brexit here, though, so I think I'll drop it there!


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I still think they are a good idea. I can't understand why people are against them.


I would have been all for them, especially if through FOM one didn't have to fork out for a passport to travel to France etc., especially as I personally have no interest in visiting countries outside the EEA area, in much the same way citizens from other EU countries are currently allowed entry to the UK on producing their ID cards.

Then it's going to end next March anyway sadly. Even if there's a no Visa agreement I doubt the UK authorities would continue to allow EU citizens entry in a post Brexit UK without full passports.


----------



## KittenKong

I'm reminded of what happened 32 years ago when public transport deregulation was introduced with the exception of London.

This obviously has nothing to do with Brexit but the potential overnight changes come Brexit day do seem a little deja vu.

The Tyne and Wear PTE area were proud of their fully integrated public transport system. If you needed two or more forms of transport to get to work, even between buses run by different operators, Northern and United in those days as well as TWPTE, you could do that on purchasing one Transfare ticket for about the same price as a single as long as it was within the TWPTE area.

On Deregulation Day it was no longer possible to do that, so passengers had to pay separate fares if they needed to travel on two buses to get to work!

Even to this day, although a limited form of Transfares were re-introduced you can only use them between buses and the Metro system. You still can't buy them to use between buses run by different operators as you could pre Deregulation Day in 1986.

Typical of the Tories for fixing something that wasn't broken. Don't get me started when they privatised the running of the metro system which caused so many problems they were forced to return it to the public sector!


----------



## cheekyscrip

I saw a letter from financial advisor , well
known company... USA market this, Japan that and so on... this up, that down.
Got to Britain . One word : Brexit.


Plus few other brochures entitled “How to protect your assets from Brexit”...
Guess the advice....:Jawdrop


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I saw a letter from financial advisor , well
> known company... USA market this, Japan that and so on... this up, that down.
> Got to Britain . One word : Brexit.
> 
> Plus few other brochures entitled "How to protect your assets from Brexit"...
> *Guess the advice*....:Jawdrop


Was it: "Copy what Rees-Mogg does" ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Was it: "Copy what Rees-Mogg does" ?


I can't say, inside information...


----------



## noushka05

Have brexiters on here considered how the implications of no deal could seriously affect them or a loved one? Better hope your 'positive thinking' keeps you all free from illness.
*

Senior Ministers Are Telling Theresa May To Go For A No Deal Brexit If The EU Won't Make Concessions* https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/senior-ministers-are-telling-theresa-may-to-go-for-a-no?

Response from Jessica Simor QC

_If they go for no deal, they foreseeably (and knowingly) put the lives of certain individuals who are reliant on swift imports of medicines at risk, in breach of the right to life (Article 2 Convention_)

.,...........


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I still think they are a good idea. I can't understand why people are against them.


What's good about them?
I have ID in my driving licence, birth certificate and NHS card


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> What's good about them?
> I have ID in my driving licence, birth certificate and NHS card


and do you carry them all around with you I take it no. I'd find it much easier as I don't have a driving licence or a passport, as for
the others I wouldn't want to carry with around with me.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> and do you carry them all around with you I take it no. I'd find it much easier as I don't have a driving licence or a passport, as for
> the others I wouldn't want to carry with around with me.


That's one of my objections to an ID card. Often I go out and don't want to carry anything

When ID cards have been mentioned, it's always been with the intention that you carry it at all times


----------



## Jesthar

True story, a member of my family used to know someone who (in their job) only needed one identifying piece of information about someone to find out absolutely anything about them. And I mean _anything_.

That was quite a few years ago, too, before the days of mass data harvesting and multi-linked cross referenced databases. So yes, you may be too boring to bother with on a general scale. But if they ever DO get interested...


----------



## KittenKong

I guess they knew what they were voting for as well.

Wonder how many of them thought they would end up on UC though ticking a box on a dodgy referendum paper?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...uring-industry-moves-out-due-to-brexit/08/11/


----------



## Magyarmum

Breaking News on CNN a few moments ago!

Press Association reports an agreement has been reached between the UK and EU

Update .... No details yet over Irish Border

UK cabinet to consider Brexit deal tomorrow Wednesday


----------



## Magyarmum

http://dev2.cityam.com/269051/brexi...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181113_Fiv

Tuesday 13 November 2018 4:46pm
*Brexit: Theresa May gathers cabinet ministers to discuss draft agreement*


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> http://dev2.cityam.com/269051/brexi...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=181113_Fiv
> 
> Tuesday 13 November 2018 4:46pm
> *Brexit: Theresa May gathers cabinet ministers to discuss draft agreement*


TM did say that the negotiations where in the end game this morning. The draft deal must be ready.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I guess they knew what they were voting for as well.
> 
> Wonder how many of them thought they would end up on UC though ticking a box on a dodgy referendum paper?
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...uring-industry-moves-out-due-to-brexit/08/11/
> 
> View attachment 375689


The local press seem to think otherwise

Ms Griffith added: "They stressed to us that the demand for the tappets being made in Llanelli has fallen, and is expected to drop drastically as the product comes to the end of its life and as demand for diesel engines reduces, and the new turbo charged product has not enjoyed the take up that had been hoped for."

Lee Waters AM said: "The managers told us that Schaeffler is a very big global organisation with 72 factories worldwide and that the Llanelli closure is part of a global consolidation. They said it was no reflection on Llanelli workforce but a reaction to the change in demand for the product made in Bynea"

The Schaeffler executives stressed that *Brexit was a consideration but not the decisive factor in this decision,* pointing out that "we are a global business and global businesses want open borders and open trade". They said Schaeffler had brought forward plans to consolidate their sites because of the uncertainty of the Brexit process.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Breaking News on CNN a few moments ago!
> 
> Press Association reports an agreement has been reached between the UK and EU
> 
> Update .... No details yet over Irish Border


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Well that's a blow to some remainers who have been piping on for the last 2 years that UK citizens will need visas to visit the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cabinet Emergency Meeting tomorrow at 2pm to agree draft Brexit withdrawal agreement.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious


And why exactly do you find it hilarious???????

Please explain as I'm curious to know.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that's a blow to some remainers who have been piping on for the last 2 years that UK citizens will need visas to visit the EU.
> View attachment 375743


Try reading behind the headlines.
This depends if Theresa May agrees the same for EEA citizens. Will she?

Such terms will probably be restricted for 90 days which will be no help for those who have holiday homes or work in the EEA region.

But it shows the EU doesn't want to "punish" UK holidaymakers by forcing them to take out visas post Brexit by default.



Magyarmum said:


> And why exactly do you find it hilarious???????
> 
> Please explain as I'm curious to know.


It's hilarious as the BBC News were really excited for their beloved Theresa May yesterday, so much they didn't bother to mention the Irish border issue which remains the major stumbling block.

No border but no CU/SM membership is like fitting a square plug in a round hole.


----------



## kimthecat

so when will the general public know whats in the draft text.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong The news article didn't say what you suggested it said. It said that EU Commission have agreed that if EU Citizens can travel visa free to the UK for short visits they will offer the same for UK citizens (visa free travel to the EU for short visits).

This is still to be agreed by the 27 leaders but is unlikely to be overturned according to the news article.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> so when will the general public know whats in the draft text.


I assume the draft text has been altered since March 2018 and the new draft text will become available in the next few days for the public to see. The new draft eu withdrawal agreement is 500 pages long apparently.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> It's also a good way for Theresa May to personally monitor everyone.


Crikey, that would keep her busy.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> @KittenKong The news article didn't say what you suggested it said. It said that EU Commission have agreed that if EU Citizens can travel visa free to the UK for short visits they will offer the same for UK citizens (visa free travel to the EU for short visits).
> 
> This is still to be agreed by the 27 leaders but is unlikely to be overturned according to the news article.


That's exactly what I did say! It depends on whether Theresa May agrees the same for EEA citizens visiting the UK. "Short visits" would probably mean no more than 90 days.

If May refuses, the EU would rightly impose visas for UK citizens.

The ball is in her court.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The stage is set. Theresa May is set to have a showdown with the opposition parties in Parliament at PMQ's at midday and then 2pm with her Cabinet. Arlene Foster is on her way to London to have a meeting with Theresa May and the Brexitier MP's are saying May's days are numbered.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ontrol-eu-sabine-weyand-cabinet-a8632866.html
















Rights to a fair day's work for a fair day's pay? Holiday entitlements, Trade Union rights? Contracted hours, a 37.5hr week? Health and Safety at work?

What do they want? The return of the Workhouse?

How many working class Brexit supporters voted for that?


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexitier MP's are saying May's days are numbered.


I have lost count of the amount of times I have seen a headline about TM being ousted or quiting :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The stage is set. Theresa May is set to have a showdown with the opposition parties in Parliament at PMQ's at midday and then 2pm with her Cabinet. Arlene Foster is on her way to London to have a meeting with Theresa May and the Brexitier MP's are saying May's days are numbered.


May's cabinet is full of her, "Yes Men" so if she says, "Jump", they'll ask her, " How high".

Sadly, they've been saying May's days have been numbered over the past 18 months. She's vast becoming the Captain Scarlet of politicians, only Scarlet saved the world yet May only wants to save herself.

But, boy will I celebrate big style should she be ousted as I did when Thatcher was in 1990.


----------



## KittenKong

Never trust a Tory, even those who claim to back remain.

It's party before country as always.

The question now is, will Labour and the DUP succumb to Theresa May's plans?

Enticed into her Spider's web more like...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ellion?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Never trust a Tory, even those who claim to back remain.


Never trust a Labour Leader when he says he back remain and supports leave.

Oh look notice something here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Never trust a Tory, even those who claim to back remain.
> 
> It's party before country as always.
> 
> The question now is, will Labour and the DUP succumb to Theresa May's plans?
> 
> Enticed into her Spider's web more like...
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ellion?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
> 
> View attachment 375830


The party whips are out doing overtime in the Conservative Party.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Never trust a Labour Leader when he says he back remain and supports leave.
> 
> Oh look notice something here.


Nor a HS who campaigned for remain who became a hard brexiter on achieving power!

Any faith I had in Corbyn died with his refusal to follow through a motion passed at the Labour Party conference calling for a PV.

Nevertheless, I have more faith in some Labour members, David Lammy for example, than any Tory.


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM to make statement in Parliament anytime between now and 9pm. Labour asking for all sittings in Parliament to be suspended so Mays speach can take place to the Speaker of The House.

The Speaker has replied to Labour's request:
Deputy Speaker Dame Rosie Winterton said she had "received no indication that the prime minister is coming to the House today".

"I understand that there is expected to be a statement from the prime minister tomorrow.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The podium is out at Downing Street. May to make statment as soon as Cabinet have finished. The press reckon around 5pm.


----------



## noushka05

How we've fallen in a couple of short years.

*Jeremy Cliffe*‏Verified account @JeremyCliffe 5h5 hours ago
Brexit is a human tragedy. Lost jobs, lost prospects and not a few lives (Brits in the EU, Europeans in the UK) genuinely wrecked.

And all for a fantasy vision of an absolute, unlimited, all-or-nothing sovereignty that never existed and never will exist.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> How we've fallen in a couple of short years.
> 
> *Jeremy Cliffe*‏Verified account @JeremyCliffe 5h5 hours ago
> Brexit is a human tragedy. Lost jobs, lost prospects and not a few lives (Brits in the EU, Europeans in the UK) genuinely wrecked.
> 
> And all for a fantasy vision of an absolute, unlimited, all-or-nothing sovereignty that never existed and never will exist.


Worse, it's all actually for the primitive feeling of tribal importance that the fantasy vision engenders.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

How did the members of the cabinet manage to read through 500 pages of the report and then have to make a decision by tonight ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> How did the members of the cabinet manage to read through 500 pages of the report and then have to make a decision by tonight ?


Like they did when Blair made cabinet read the documents saying there was weapons of mass distruction in Iraq. Speed reading.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Like they did when Blair made cabinet read the documents saying there was weapons of mass distruction in Iraq. Speed reading.


 He was the BBC again this afternoon . grr !

or maybe they divide it up and give parts to their minions who summarise it for them!

I admire Mrs May's stamina . All the stuff she gets thrown at her , how does she do it !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I admire Mrs May's stamina . All the stuff she gets thrown at her , *how does she do it *!


She doesn't do any work her underdogs do all the hard work.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> He was the BBC again this afternoon . grr !


Don't get me started with Blair


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> He was the BBC again this afternoon . grr !
> 
> or maybe they divide it up and give parts to their minions who summarise it for them!
> 
> I admire Mrs May's stamina . All the stuff she gets thrown at her , how does she do it !


Gin.


----------



## stockwellcat.

No confidence vote very likely.
TM to make speach immenently.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> He was the BBC again this afternoon . grr !
> 
> or maybe they divide it up and give parts to their minions who summarise it for them!
> 
> I admire Mrs May's stamina . All the stuff she gets thrown at her , how does she do it !


People like May thrive on people hating her. That's why she's determined to continue into the next decade and probably beyond.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cabinet Backs Draft EU withdrawal agreement after 5 hours of debate.

Ireland backs deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> People like May thrive on people hating her. That's why she's determined to continue into the next decade and probably beyond.


Rubbish! Just sour grapes on your part!


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Cabinet Backs Draft EU withdrawal agreement after 5 hours of debate.
> 
> Ireland backs deal.


The outcome I fully expected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> The outcome I fully expected.


She has to sell the Draft EU Withdrawal Agreement to the 1922 committee to stop a vote of no confidence against her and then sell it to Parliament to back the Draft Withdrawal Agreement. She is part way there.

I cannot wait to read the amended deal when it is published.

She has a difficult few days/weeks ahead of her to get this through UK Parliament and she admitted this.

First hurdle is over and yes it was the outcome I expected.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Rubbish! Just sour grapes on your part!


Really? I detested May long before she became PM through Windrush and those, "Go home or face arrest" vans.

Nothing would change my mind on that. She absolutely disgusts me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Really? I detested May long before she became PM through Windrush and those, "Go home or face arrest" vans.
> 
> Nothing would change my mind on that. She absolutely disgusts me.


If she gets this through Parliament you'll have to get used to her ruling the country you live in


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Gin.


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Draft EU Withdrawal Bill to be published at 7.45pm.

No glum faces from Cabinet Ministers leaving Number 10.


----------



## stockwellcat.

And here it is, the draft EU Withdrawal Agreement: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/fil...-agreed-negotiators-level-14-november-2018_en

585 pages btw.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Cabinet Backs Draft EU withdrawal agreement after 5 hours of debate.
> 
> Ireland backs deal.


Can't see reference to Ireland backing May's deal. Source of this information please? Will the DUP back it which begs the question?

Everyone knew her cabinet would back her deal. Why else would she fill it with, "Yes men".

Seems not all Brexiters let alone remainers are happy though. The Scottish Tories for example. What did they expect seeing the Tories in Westminster aren't interested in anyone north of Watford Gap.

Not often do I agree with Leave.eu but they're spot on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Can't see reference to Ireland backing May's deal. Source of this information please? Will the DUP back it which begs the question?
> 
> Everyone knew her cabinet would back her deal. Why else would she fill it with, "Yes men".
> 
> Seems not all Brexiters let alone remainers are happy though. The Scottish Tories for example. What did they expect seeing the Tories in Westminster aren't interested in anyone north of Watford Gap.
> 
> Not often do I agree with Leave.eu but they're spot on here.
> 
> View attachment 375873
> View attachment 375874


It was mentioned on sky news. Cricky give the harp a rest. It's this deal or no deal.

Regading the yes men reference there was those saying no initially for example Andrea Leadson and the DWP minister.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Can't see reference to Ireland backing May's deal. Source of this information please? Will the DUP back it which begs the question?
> 
> Everyone knew her cabinet would back her deal. Why else would she fill it with, "Yes men".
> 
> Seems not all Brexiters let alone remainers are happy though. The Scottish Tories for example. What did they expect seeing the Tories in Westminster aren't interested in anyone north of Watford Gap.
> 
> Not often do I agree with Leave.eu but they're spot on here.
> 
> View attachment 375873
> View attachment 375874


The vote to take place in Parliament can be ignored. It has no legality as pointed out by a commons spokes person.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So after 2 years of winding UK leave voters up about the back stop Barnier reveals it is not meant to be used.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> And here it is, the draft EU Withdrawal Agreement: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/fil...-agreed-negotiators-level-14-november-2018_en
> 
> 585 pages btw.


 I got as far as reading the title  I'll watch the 10 pm news tonight to see what it says .



stockwellcat. said:


> The vote to take place in Parliament can be ignored. It has no legality as pointed out by a commons spokes person.


I didn't know that . Do you think it will be ignored?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Do you think it will be ignored?


She has to see off a vote of no confidence first. MP's are planning to do this in Parliament.

I have tried reading the draft withdrawal bill 3 times now. I will wait and see what others say.

Sorry I avoided your question. SWC shrugs his shoulders as he does not know in response to your question.


----------



## noushka05

Hahaha


----------



## stockwellcat.

Donald Trump is fuming with Theresa May and aparently ranted on Air Force One on his way to France about the negotiations.


----------



## noushka05

Arlene, Arlene, Arlene, Arleeeeeene I'm begging of you please don't break my plan.





:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Oh what a surprise.. not.

:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> She has to see off a vote of no confidence first. MP's are planning to do this in Parliament.
> 
> I have tried reading the draft withdrawal bill 3 times now. I will wait and see what others say.
> 
> Sorry I avoided your question. SWC shrugs his shoulders as he does not know in response to your question.


I missed the first minutes of the news.  Rees Mogg just said he didn't write a letter of no confidence that triggers a vote but some other MPs might have .

I guess we'll find out tomorrow !


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It was mentioned on sky news. Cricky give the harp a rest. It's this deal or no deal.


That's odd as I thought no deal is what you wanted?

I see Maysolini has expressed she'll be taking control of borders, laws and ends our right to FOM.

She's personally taking control, not you or me.

Sound good to you?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Donald Trump is fuming with Theresa May and aparently ranted on Air Force One on his way to France about the negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


>


That's what I thought.


----------



## KittenKong

View attachment 375894
I never thought I'd come close to agreeing with JRM's supporters on his Twitter feed, let alone fully agree with these comments but for obviously very different reasons.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Really annoyed with the deal she has produced. She has basically rolled over and given the EU everything they want.  When is she leaving? Please make sure you close the door behind you. I said from the start she could never be trusted. The woman betrayed everyone that voted leave.


She has betrayed everyone.

Not one remainer supports her plan either.


----------



## Jesthar

Well, one thing's for certain, whichever way you voted we're definitely ending up with the Brexit nobody wanted...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Let's see what happens in the next few days. From what I have heard and read she is going to be facing a rebellion from MP's voting a no confidence vote against her from both sides of the house of commons. Her premiership is almost over from what is being said.


----------



## KittenKong

Once again there's more truth in News Thump than in the mainstream media.

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/14/the...it-deal-that-disappoints-absolutely-everyone/


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Donald Trump is fuming with Theresa May and aparently ranted on Air Force One on his way to France about the negotiations.


 Look what he said about Macron on Twitter ! 

*Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump* Nov 13



The problem is that Emmanuel suffers from a very low Approval Rating in France, 26%, and an unemployment rate of almost 10%. He was just trying to get onto another subject. By the way, there is no country more Nationalist than France, very proud people-and rightfully so!........




 *Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump* Nov 13

On Trade, France makes excellent wine, but so does the U.S. The problem is that France makes it very hard for the U.S. to sell its wines into France, and charges big Tariffs, whereas the U.S. makes it easy for French wines, and charges very small Tariffs. Not fair, must change!





Emmanuel Macron suggests building its own army to protect Europe against the U.S., China and Russia. But it was Germany in World Wars One & Two - How did that work out for France? They were starting to learn German in Paris before the U.S. came along. Pay for NATO or not!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Look what he said about Macron on Twitter !
> 
> *Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump* Nov 13
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Emmanuel suffers from a very low Approval Rating in France, 26%, and an unemployment rate of almost 10%. He was just trying to get onto another subject. By the way, there is no country more Nationalist than France, very proud people-and rightfully so!........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Donald J. Trump*‏Verified account @*realDonaldTrump* Nov 13
> 
> On Trade, France makes excellent wine, but so does the U.S. The problem is that France makes it very hard for the U.S. to sell its wines into France, and charges big Tariffs, whereas the U.S. makes it easy for French wines, and charges very small Tariffs. Not fair, must change!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emmanuel Macron suggests building its own army to protect Europe against the U.S., China and Russia. But it was Germany in World Wars One & Two - How did that work out for France? They were starting to learn German in Paris before the U.S. came along. Pay for NATO or not!


Make France Great Again.
Trump said this mocking France.

The orange blip knows how to be diplomatic. Not.

I wonder if he treats his customers like this through his businesses and insults them?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's see what happens in the next few days. From what I have heard and read she is going to be facing a rebellion from MP's voting a no confidence vote against her from both sides of the house of commons. Her premiership is almost over from what is being said.


It feels like this will be never ending  A new PM and start all over again and then it will be something else .


----------



## KittenKong

Regardless of what happens Brexit will be never ending in much the same way the introduction of the Poll Tax was certainly not the end of the matter!

Let's see if the DUP and Corbyn become the unlikely heroes in rejecting May's deal. I worry about the later though as it seems what May is proposing is not unlike what he supports, according to the Independent.


----------



## KittenKong

Then.....








Now....








:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

This is a copy of the fact sheet issued by the European Commission which gives an outline of what has been agreed so far.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6422_en.htm

What should be emphasised is that this a *TRANSITIONAL AGREEMENT* and what has been agreed so far is just the new starting pint - base line - for ongoing negotiations to reach the final agreement

This is the statement that came with it . Note the references to further negotiations .....

European Commission - Press release
*European Commission recommends to the European Council (Article 50) to find that decisive progress has been made in Brexit negotiations*
Brussels, 14 November 2018

The negotiators of the European Commission and the United Kingdom have today reached a deal on the terms of the Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement.

All aspects of the Withdrawal Agreement have now been finalised and agreed at negotiator level. This agreement marks a decisive moment in the negotiations. The European Commission therefore recommended to the European Council (Article 50) to find that decisive progress has been made in the negotiations on the orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, allowing the negotiations on the withdrawal agreement to be concluded and the next step of the process to be initiated. The negotiators have also agreed on an outline of the political declaration on the future EU-UK relationship.

The Withdrawal Agreement covers all elements of the UK's withdrawal from the EU: citizens' rights, the financial settlement, a transition period, governance, Protocols on Ireland, Gibraltar and Cyprus, as well as a range of other separation issues.

The EU and the UK negotiators have agreed on how to avoid a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Both will use their best endeavours to have a future agreement concluded before the end of the transition period by 1 July 2020. Should this not be the case, the EU and the UK could jointly extend the transition period. Alternatively, as of January 2021, the backstop solution for Ireland and Northern Ireland would apply, subject to a joint review mechanism.

That backstop solution means that a single EU-UK customs territory will be established, which will apply from the end of the transition period until such a time as a subsequent agreement becomes applicable. Northern Ireland will therefore remain part of the same customs territory as the rest of the UK. The single customs territory covers all goods with the exception of fishery and aquaculture products.

The creation of the single customs territory includes the corresponding level playing field commitments and appropriate enforcement mechanisms to ensure fair competition between the EU27 and the UK.

The outline of the political declaration published today records the progress in reaching an overall understanding on the framework for the future EU-UK relationship. The EU and UK negotiators will continue their work based on the outline.

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The present Withdrawal Agreement - including the transition period - must take into account the framework of the future relationship. The political declaration must therefore be further developed and agreed in its final form.

In parallel, the European Commission will continue its preparedness and contingency work for all eventualities.

*Next steps*

The EU and UK negotiators will continue their work on the political declaration on the framework for the future relationship based on the outline published today. It is up to the President of the European Council to decide whether and when to convene a meeting of the 27 Heads of State or Government. It will be up to the European Council (Article 50) to endorse the Withdrawal Agreement and the joint political declaration on the framework of the future relationship.

Once the Withdrawal Agreement is endorsed by the European Council (Article 50), and before it can enter into force, it needs to be ratified by the EU and the UK. For the EU, the Council of the European Union must authorise the signature of the Withdrawal Agreement, before sending it to the European Parliament for its consent. The United Kingdom must ratify the agreement according to its own constitutional arrangements.

*Background*

Prime Minister Theresa May triggered Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union on 29 March 2017 (read more here). Her letter to Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, formally began the process of UK's withdrawal from the EU. Negotiations on the terms of the UK's withdrawal formally began on 19 June 2017, following the UK's general election. On 8 December 2017, the EU and the UK published a Joint Report, setting out the areas of agreement between both sides on withdrawal issues. This was accompanied by a Communication by the European Commission. In March 2018, the European Commission and the United Kingdom published a draft Withdrawal Agreement. This document highlighted areas of agreement and disagreement using a green, yellow and white colour-coding. The future relationship between the EU and the UK will be outlined in a political declaration and will only be negotiated once the UK becomes a third country, i.e. outside of the EU, after 29 March 2019.


----------



## noushka05

Its been glaringly obvious for a very long time brexit was a disaster - even before we left. The deniers are going to be forced to face reality now.


(Ian Dunt)

May is rubbish. Historically rubbish, worthy of a whole chapter in the history books exploring her unique inadequacies. But at least she's tried. The protesters today, out there demonstrating against the existence of reality, are a much sadder spectacle.

This pitiful attempt to pretend that they are somehow not responsible for where we are. They've had over two years to provide a credible outline of how to pursue their goal. They provided nothing but waffle and lies.

The irony is that the joint agreement in December, and in all likelihood this deal, actually accommodates their bullshit. It says you can try to fix the Irish border promise - which they made, over and over again - by a future relationship.

There's your technical solutions, you cretinous baboons. If you really believed in it, you'd go right for it. But you don't, so you won't. Because it's horse shit. Just another lie to pursue your demented nationalism


This has been an object lesson in the emotional inadequacies of reactionaries and should-have-known better conservatives. Nothing more. And now they have the gall to say: Oh not this Brexit. I want the one I spaffed out in my head over breakfast the other day.


Well not so much. No scarpering now. Vote for it or don't, but this is done in your name. It's your project, executed by a prime minister desperate for your support. And guess what? It's going to be shit


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Then.....
> View attachment 375914
> 
> Now....
> View attachment 375915
> 
> :Hilarious


Or


----------



## stockwellcat.

The resignations have started.

Northern Ireland Minster Shailesh Vara has resigned.


----------



## noushka05

April 2017


----------



## noushka05

#WithdrawalAgreement is very strong on preventing state aid but much weaker on workers' rights and environmental protections.
The non-regression clauses are stronger than a typical Free Trade Agreement but far weaker than current EU requirements. 
Reflects Govt & EU priorities. Tom Kibasi.

And Owen Jones response.

*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 11h11 hours ago
Owen Jones Retweeted Tom Kibasi, IPPR

The Tory Brexit deal aims to tie the hands of an elected Labour government and stop it implementing its manifesto, while allowing for 
hard won rights and freedoms to be tossed on a bonfire to burn. 
This is an assault on democracy

.......................


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dominic Raab has resigned as Brexit Secretary.










2 resignations so far. More resignations expected.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> 2 resignations so far. More resignations expected.


And every one of them will be a matter of principle of course. Not one of them because they think they'll do well out of it as an individual


----------



## stockwellcat.

The press are starting to get rumours that Andrea Leadsom maybe quitting which will be a serious blow to May as Leadsom is leader of the house of commons.

Other Minsiters are reportedly getting ready to quit as well like DWP minister.

The Tory party are ready to vote a vote of no confidence against Theresa May and this means a leadership challenge.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's all falling apart

The Brexite Secretary Dominic Raab Resigns


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> It's all falling apart
> 
> The Brexite Secretary Dominic Raab Resigns


I already posted that above


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> It's all falling apart
> 
> The Brexite Secretary Dominic Raab Resigns


She is finished I think.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> The Tory party are ready to vote a vote of no confidence against Theresa May and this means a leadership challenge.


Yeah - they care so much about this country that they'd rather continue their playground brawling than get on with running it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dominic Raab was a key resignation.
The dominios (the dominos being her top Ministers) are about to fall around Theresa May.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I already posted that above


SORRY!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> SORRY!


No worries


----------



## noushka05

Important message from Caroline Lucas.

Last night @theresa_may admitted 'no #Brexit' is an option. We're closer than ever to securing a #PeoplesVote with an option to reject this dangerous deal, stay in EU & address real reasons people want change. We can win this.

Tell your MP to give the public a say on the deal

..................................................................

Please write to your MPs urging them to support a peoples vote - https://www.writetothem.com/


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Yeah - they care so much about this country that they'd rather continue their playground brawling than get on with running it.


I agree.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Dominic Raab has resigned as Brexit Secretary.
> 
> View attachment 375927
> 
> 
> 2 resignations so far. More resignations expected.





Happy Paws said:


> It's all falling apart
> 
> The Brexite Secretary Dominic Raab Resigns


Dominic Raab just resigned over a deal he negotiated.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Umunna is right. Dominic Raab has walked away from the mess he created and leaving others to clear up his mess he was partly to blame for creating (Raab he was referring to).

Sorry I was watching him being interviewed live on sky news.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Umunna is right. Dominic Raab has walked away from the mess he created and leaving others to clear up his mess he was partly to blame for creating (Raab he was referring to).
> 
> .


Like Cameron did ! 

This is ludicrous , if they kick May out, then what ?

You know the insurance ad where the man is being question about his locks and he is saying I dont know , no one knows . It feels like that .


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM making statement at 10:30am.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP Anna Marie Morris has just said she has put a letter of vote of no confidence in and believes there is already 48 letters which is more than enough.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> TM making statement at 10:30am.


Whoopie do ! sorry this is doing my head in . Im going to have to go therapy shopping


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> TM making statement at 10:30am.


Oh good - everything will be just fine then.
We're paying this bunch of idiots!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Michael Gove has cancelled his trip today (Breaking news on Sky). 

Is he about to resign?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Michael Gove has cancelled his trip today (Breaking news on Sky).
> 
> Is he about to resign?


perhaps he will be the next PM 
https://www.petforums.co.uk/posts/1065323498/like


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> perhaps he will be the next PM


Hope not.

But look at those resigning. They are all Brexitier MP's.


----------



## noushka05

James OB nailed the duplicitous brextremists back in July.

The minute Brexiters have to write down their ‘plan’, expose it to scrutiny & explain the detail, the whole thing will fall apart.
This holds whatever the plan is. No deal is now the only way they get to continue refusing to write anything down.
It really is this simple & tragic.


,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

Penny Morgan, Esther McVey and Andrea Leadsom rumoured to quit today as well.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Hope not.
> 
> But look at those resigning. They are all Brexitier MP's.


I thought you'd want a brexiter to be PM? You wanted no deal - have you changed your mind SW? No deal will be miles worse than this [email protected] deal are you now in favour a peoples vote?

,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I thought you'd want a brexiter to be PM?


Not him though.


> You wanted no deal


 Correct


> - have you changed your mind SW?


No


> No deal will be miles worse than this [email protected] deal *are you now in favour a peoples vote*?


No


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Not him though


Who then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

DWP Minister Esther McVey has just resigned..


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sky News are saying these resignations are making a no deal more likely than ever if the House of Commons rejects the deal May got as there is no fall back option for a second referendum.


----------



## kimthecat

May is making a statement in the HOC . If she was going to resign wouldnt she make a statement outside No 10?


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> May is making a statement in the HOC . If she was going to resign wouldnt she make a statement outside No 10?


Either way there's not going to be enough popcorn to go round...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Either way there's not going to be enough popcorn to go round...


:Hilarious
Well , it seems this lady's not for turning !


----------



## rona

Pfft, lot of over paid juvenile wind bags. The sooner we are out and have a change the better.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> perhaps he will be the next PM


:Jawdrop:Woot


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Not him though. CorrectNo
> No
> 
> View attachment 375934


Who Mogg? or Johnson maybe? or Leadsom?

So you want no deal even though we know its worse that the deal on offer. You are being reckless with peoples lives & for what? I will never understand the mentality of hard core brexiters as long as I live. Never.

_
Matt Hancock, the health secretary, told cabinet that he could not guarantee that people would not die as a result of a no-deal Brexit. So it's this or death. I don't remember that being written on the side of the bus._

*So it's this or death. Cheers!*
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/so-its-this-or-death-cheers-bhqnmn79s


----------



## Jesthar

Lots of whinging all over FB that 'This isn't the Brexit I voted for!' (every flavour from "I wanted the Norway model!" to "No Deal now!")

Er, yes. Yes it is. The ballot paper just said 'Leave', not what Leave would look like...


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Pfft, lot of over paid juvenile wind bags. The sooner we are out and have a change the better.


I hate to inform you Rona, but things are going to get a whole lot worse for the EU - Brexit is a right wing power grab.


----------



## havoc

noushka05 said:


> Brexit is a right wing power grab


I happen to think you're right but right wing extremism has quite a following so it is what some people voted for in the referendum. They'll be happy, at least in the short term.


----------



## Happy Paws2

May isn't having a good day, is she.


----------



## Elles

Can someone explain to me why Remain voters are so unhappy with a deal that keeps us in the Eu and that the Eu are happy with?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Can someone explain to me why Remain voters are so unhappy with a deal that keeps us in the Eu and that the Eu are happy with?


Because its a terrible deal.


----------



## noushka05

This.

*Robert Harris*‏ @Robert___Harris
No group of politicians has done more damage to this country than the 50 or so hardline Tory Brexiteers.
They have infected the UK with their poison, concealed their real aims, evaded all responsibility, & now knife their own leader
for failing to deliver their fantasy

And This.

*Brian Cox*‏Verified account @ProfBrianCox 3h3 hours ago
Brian Cox Retweeted Robert Peston

The thing I don't understand about these Conservative MPs is that they are such angry people. They haven't done badly out of Britain - they aren't on the receiving end of their own policies. And yet they want to smash everything up. The EU, The Union and now their own party.

...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Can someone explain to me why Remain voters are so unhappy with a deal that keeps us in the Eu and that the Eu are happy with?


I am not a remainer as everyone on here knows, but I think I know the answer.

They want to stay in the EU and want a second referendum or Peoples Vote so they won't be happy with any deal regardless of how close the UK remains to the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Can someone explain to me why Remain voters are so unhappy with a deal that keeps us in the Eu and that the Eu are happy with?


It's worse than the deal we currently have.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It's worse than the deal we currently have.


And that's putting it mildly.


----------



## Arnie83

Not one MP has stood up and supported the deal so far - and we're nearly 90 minutes into the debate.

There's no way this is going to pass the House. And there's even less support for the No Deal option - good at least to see that MPs aren't quite that mad.

So which way forwards? A new referendum is really becoming more and more likely.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Not one MP has stood up and supported the deal so far - and we're nearly 90 minutes into the debate.
> 
> There's no way this is going to pass the House. And there's even less support for the No Deal option - good at least to see that MPs aren't quite that mad.
> *
> So which way forwards? A new referendum is really becoming more and more likely*.


Please God. Though I fear many people still have no clue just how catastrophic no deal will be, so we could still end up going over the cliff:Nailbiting


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 2h2 hours ago
PM's deal won't get through the Commons. No deal has nowhere near parliamentary majority. We risk chaos. Job losses. Businesses going under. Environmental rules being torn up.

This is real people's real lives, not a Westminster parlour game.

It's time for a #PeoplesVote


----------



## noushka05

*David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen 1h1 hour ago
May in Commons just now: "...we could risk no Brexit at all..."

Huge cheer.

Seriously.

.....................................


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> So which way forwards? A new referendum is really becoming more and more likely.


And if the result is the same then what? I am really starting to fear for this country, not only at the grandiose scale of national issues but also in terms of how it has set individuals against each other.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> They want to stay in the EU and want a second referendum or Peoples Vote so they won't be happy with any deal regardless of how close the UK remains to the EU.


But the Brexiteers aren't happy with anything other than us crashing out. This isn't a case of not being able to please everyone - it's not pleasing anyone.


----------



## Jesthar

Just popped up in my FB feed (sorry for the image size...)...










How on earth, at this point, can anyone still be this illogical in their Brexit reasoning?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Michael Gove is leaving his post as Environment Secretary.... He is reportedly being offered the job as Brexit Secretary.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> But the Brexiteers aren't happy with anything other than us crashing out. This isn't a case of not being able to please everyone - it's not pleasing anyone.


Well, SOME Brexiteers. Others want the Norway model or some undefined scenario between those two. Yet others have no idea what they really want other than 'out' (possibly involving images of sunlit uplands, unicorns and rainbows), and are mainly unhappy with reality impinging on their daydreams...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May has just said no to stepping aside in response to a question in Parliament.

The ERG are meeting at 12:45pm.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 2h2 hours ago
Help! I'm down to be Brexit Secretary between 2-4pm on 12th January but have a dentist's appointment. 
Can anyone swap their shift with me?

:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Please God. Though I fear many people still have no clue just how catastrophic no deal will be, so we could still end up going over the cliff:Nailbiting


We could indeed. I worry that the level of ignorance has changed very little in 2 years, though it must surely have come to people's notice that the "easiest negotiation in human history" where we get "the exact same benefits" hasn't exactly been delivered. But there will be many who will ignore the UK's fall from the fastest growing to the slowest in the G# and point to the lack of an actual recession as proof that nothing bad happened.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> DWP Minister Esther McVey has just resigned..
> 
> View attachment 375935
> 
> View attachment 375936


A message from Nicola.

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 3h3 hours ago
I just hope that Esther McVey takes the travesty that is Universal Credit out the door with her.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> And if the result is the same then what? I am really starting to fear for this country, not only at the grandiose scale of national issues but also in terms of how it has set individuals against each other.


Well it wouldn't be the same question, but I know what you mean. If the People voted for May's deal or No Deal, then so be it. You can't force people to learn the facts before voting, or to vote according to those facts. Democracy only demands that facts (rather than lies) are made available. Plus, of course, many 2016 leave votes had nothing to do with economic factors, which is also fine.

It's a further argument against holding referendums, but once we started down this route, it tied the hands of our Parliamentary democracy such that the new circumstances have to be presented back to the People, or ignored as though they don't exist.


----------



## noushka05

Sigh of relief.


John McDonnell: “If we can’t get a general election, yes we will keep a People’s Vote on the table” 


..


----------



## KittenKong

They used to say a week in politics was a long time. Now it's only a few hours!

Some were rejoicing over Mother Theresa's Brexit deal being allegedly agreed by the EU and her cabinet here only last night.

This morning the last person I expected to resign, Dominic Rabb, has done.

Yet with much opposition to her plan from her own party on both sides of the fence Theresa May insists she is acting on the Brexit vote for the, "National interest". If she mentions that soundbite again......

This situation reminds me of the dying days of Thatcher's administration which eventually led to her resignation.

If only history repeats itself, but I won't build my hopes up.


----------



## noushka05

Amidst the chaos, there are so many funny tweets though I love this one.

_*I'm really enjoying the season finale of The UK.*_


----------



## noushka05

*Rory Bremner*‏Verified account @rorybremner 4h4 hours ago
*Say what you like about the Vote Leave lot. They've all left.

lol*


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Can someone explain to me why Remain voters are so unhappy with a deal that keeps us in the Eu and that the Eu are happy with?


Because I don't want Theresa May being hieled, sorry hailed a hero as the one who saves the UK by succumbing to her demands.

Also, it doesn't keep us in the EU. I'll still lose my citizenship and my FOM rights at her insistence.

Might sound strange but I'd prefer no deal to a May deal that if they're the only options.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

Rees mogg, lying toad.


----------



## Jesthar

Would this be the Rees Mogg who has been shifting his business dealings to Dublin so he can still take advantage of free trade etc. post Brexit?


----------



## kimthecat

Yes unch


----------



## Elles

So basically stockwellcat is right. There's nothing specific about the deal that Remainers don't like, they just don't want anything that isn't staying in and exactly the same as it's always been.

This deal keeps us tied to the Eu and gives the Eu countries the final decision on whether we get to leave. I can see Brexiters not liking it, but for Remainers I would have thought it's the next best thing after staying in. The Eu also like it and will be able to prevent us leaving anyway. As for freedom of movement that won't change either atm. No visas and workers can continue as is.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/15/uk/brexit-deal-key-policy-takeaways-intl-gbr/index.html


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1062992019449098241


----------



## Jonescat

I have to disagree. When we are part of the EU, we are part of the rule making process, when we are out we are not. There is a world of difference.


----------



## Elles

Jonescat said:


> I have to disagree. When we are part of the EU, we are part of the rule making process, when we are out we are not. There is a world of difference.


The deal will most likely keep us in the Eu. All 27 member countries have to agree to the solution to the backstop and have the final say over whether we leave. Unless I misunderstand it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So I have been asked who I think should be leader of the Conservatives if May is ousted. My answer. I don't know. Andrea Leadsom was second in the leadership challenge last time and perhaps would win this time. My opinion. Then again May could win again. Like Corbyn won a leadership challenge twice.

Does it mean there will be a snap General Election if a new leader is appointed. Not necessarily as it is up to the leader of the ruling party to request to hold one to Parliament as the leader would have to get Parliaments permission and the new leader does not have to do this under the Parliament act 2011.


----------



## Elles

The only way we will get a say in the rule making is of course if we stay in. Which is what I said. Remainers will accept no deal that takes us out of the Eu.


----------



## Elles

Gove.


----------



## Jesthar

Only viable response to today's shambles in Parliament now - that or scream!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I might pop to the bookies and bet on if there will be a leadership challenge and try and make some money out of this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dominic Raab is the favourite to win the leadership challenge at 6/1 at the moment with Savid Javid and Boris Johnson second favourite at 7/1.

@Elles Gove is 12/1 and 3rd Favourite seeing as second favourite is currently tied


----------



## Jesthar

So, no candidates who have any real clout in EU circles, then...



Elles said:


> Gove.


Oh, please, no. The man has derailed more or less every department he's been in charge of...


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So basically stockwellcat is right. There's nothing specific about the deal that Remainers don't like, they just don't want anything that isn't staying in and exactly the same as it's always been.
> 
> This deal keeps us tied to the Eu and gives the Eu countries the final decision on whether we get to leave. I can see Brexiters not liking it, but for Remainers I would have thought it's the next best thing after staying in. The Eu also like it and will be able to prevent us leaving anyway. As for freedom of movement that won't change either atm. No visas and workers can continue as is.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/15/uk/brexit-deal-key-policy-takeaways-intl-gbr/index.html
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1062992019449098241?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet


I have to strongly disagree.

Those who wish to retain their EU citizenship and FOM movement rights will lose it. Even if the latter is retained for a brief period we still face losing it in the future as the, "transition" period ends.

There is no way in a million years would I embrace that.

Being on several anti Brexit FB pages not one of them embraces TM's deal either.


----------



## KittenKong

Not much praise for Jeremy Corbyn for obvious reasons, but I did note he mentioned the lack of workers' rights in TM's deal.

Has he realised at last Brexit is nothing more than a right wing power grab? People have been telling him that for ages!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well Rees Mogg can be ruled out as he isn't interested in becoming leader of the Conservatives.


----------



## Elles

If we leave the Eu with no deal it’ll be more likely to end freedom of movement, which isn’t really a freedom anyway. No one has said why this deal is worse than no deal. I can see it’s worse for Brexiters as many want no deal anyway, but why is no deal better for Remainers?

Or do they mean it’s worse than staying in the Eu and worse than trying a second vote?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not much praise for Jeremy Corbyn for obvious reasons, but I did note he mentioned the lack of workers' rights in TM's deal.
> 
> Has he realised at last Brexit is nothing more than a right wing power grab? People have been telling him that for ages!


As the Labour party stands today I would not vote for them if they were the only party left to vote for and I used to be a loyal Labour Supporter.
Feel free to comment as I am not bothered.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> If we leave the Eu with no deal it'll be more likely to end freedom of movement, which isn't really a freedom anyway. No one has said why this deal is worse than no deal. I can see it's worse for Brexiters as many want no deal anyway, but why is no deal better for Remainers?
> 
> Or do they mean it's worse than staying in the Eu and worse than trying a second vote?


Not one Remain MP in Parliament gave a reason why they would reject the deal except repeatedly saying it was the worst deal.
Remainers got what they wanted in the deal and that was to keep the UK tied to the EU and I don't understand why they don't like it except the UK will not be part of the decision making (This was known from the start)? I have every reason being a leave voter to be very annoyed at the deal presented. Theresa May being a Remain supporter delivered a remainers Brexit and yet remainers still don't like it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The UK is to remain in a customs union with the EU (until 20xx - no end date) which is what remainers wanted.
All EU Laws apply. Remainers wanted this and got it.
The UK may be tied to the EU forever as a vassal state and the remainers still aren't happy.
Free movement applies. Movement of workers applies. What else do you want remainers? The deal delivers what you wanted because the PM is a remainer and was going to keep the UK tied to the EU.

May should never have been trusted to deliver Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If we leave the Eu with no deal it'll be more likely to end freedom of movement, which isn't really a freedom anyway. No one has said why this deal is worse than no deal. I can see it's worse for Brexiters as many want no deal anyway, but why is no deal better for Remainers?
> 
> Or do they mean it's worse than staying in the Eu and worse than trying a second vote?


I don't think anyone apart from the fanatic Brexiteers think that No Deal is better than May's Deal, bad though it is. Certainly I haven't seen any Remainer saying that No Deal is better.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> If we leave the Eu with no deal it'll be more likely to end freedom of movement, which isn't really a freedom anyway. No one has said why this deal is worse than no deal. I can see it's worse for Brexiters as many want no deal anyway, but why is no deal better for Remainers?
> 
> Or do they mean it's worse than staying in the Eu and worse than trying a second vote?


With the possible exception of full EEA membership + CU the issue that annoys me more than anything is Theresa May personally taking away my rights, not only with EU membership and FOM rights but no doubt employment and other rights too.

I'd rather be told by the EU itself, losing these benefits is a consequence of leaving the EU rather than have a vile Nationalist politician deciding my future while continuing bits of membership she deems suitable such as SM & CU access.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> With the possible exception of full EEA membership + CU the issue that annoys me more than anything is Theresa May personally taking away my rights, not only with EU membership and FOM rights but no doubt employment and other rights too.
> 
> I'd rather be told by the EU itself, losing these benefits is a consequence of leaving the EU rather than have a vile Nationalist politician deciding my future while continuing bits of membership she deems suitable such as SM & CU access.


Absolute Rubbish.
Remainers got practically what they wanted to the equivalent to what the UK has now.


----------



## Jesthar

Some of us haven't had the chance to look at the detail yet... 

I'd like for workers rights to remain in line with the EU or higher, and also environmental and food legislation. I don't see why the average worker and the environment should suffer because some rich people would prefer to be able to treat both people and the planet as profit making machines.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Some of us haven't had the chance to look at the detail yet...
> 
> I'd like for workers rights to remain in line with the EU or higher, and also environmental and food legislation. I don't see why the average worker and the environment should suffer because some rich people would prefer to be able to treat both people and the planet as profit making machines.


So if you haven't looked at the details yet why try and derail the deal?
Read it first instead of jumping on the bandwagon.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> So if you haven't looked at the details yet why try and derail the deal?
> Read it first instead of jumping on the bandwagon.


Er, what? 

I have commented on the cringeworthy conduct of a number of our supposed leaders in parliament today, and mentioned a couple of points I'd like to be committed to. How is that trying to 'derail the deal'?*

*besides, if I had THAT kind of power, I'd have revoked Article 50 yonks ago


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Gove is going to be the next Brexit secretary. What is his real motive? To become leader maybe? How long will it be before he stabs May in the back like he did with Boris in the last Leadership challenge


----------



## stockwellcat.

The resignations are coming in thick and fast.
The vice president of the Conservative party has resigned.

7 Resignations so far.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The cost of Gove becoming Brexit Secretary. He said the price of him taking the job is to renegotiate the agreement May has made with the EU.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> So Gove is going to be the next Brexit secretary. What is his real motive? To become leader maybe? *How long will it be before he stabs May in the back* like he did with Boris in the last Leadership challenge


Didn't he say he'd only become Brexit secretary if he could scrap this deal? If so, then he already has and we're back to square one...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May doing news conference at 5pm.
Is there a leadership challenge brewing?
Against all odds. Is she stepping down?


----------



## noushka05

Me too. (Our next door neighbour and good friend for one - who is feeling sick to the stomach that hes let his son & grandchildren down for believing we'd be better of to leave. )

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 59m59 minutes ago


The people I feel for today are all those who voted Leave genuinely thinking we'd be better off, conned by the chancers, liars, carpet-baggers, millionaires wanting to get even richer on the back of broken country. All those who said it would be so easy.


----------



## noushka05

This is so sad.

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling 3h3 hours ago
'*What have I done to my country?' Leave Voter Breaks Into Tears As He Apologises For Backing Brexit* - LBC @LBC


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> Dominic Raab is the favourite to win the leadership challenge at 6/1 at the moment with Savid Javid and Boris Johnson second favourite at 7/1.
> 
> @Elles Gove is 12/1 and 3rd Favourite seeing as second favourite is currently tied
> 
> View attachment 375959


Dominic Raab and Savid Javid odds now 4/1
Boris Johnson 6/1
Jacob Rees Mogg and Michael Gove 8/1
Jeremy Hunt 7/1


----------



## kimthecat

May to hold *another *press conference at 5 pm :Nailbiting


----------



## stockwellcat.

Nigel Farage threatening to come back to politics to save Brexit and he is as annoyed with May as everyone else.
Farage has said she should go as she has no more room to move on her Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> May to hold *another *press conference at 5 pm :Nailbiting


Hope she resigns?
What a mess she has made and she should never have been trusted with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Damn. She has just said behind the scenes she will fight any leadership contest. She believes she will win and her party is behind her. Leave woman. No one wants your agreement on Brexit.


----------



## rona

If Savid Javid or Gove ever leads the party we are lost completely


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Hope she resigns?
> What a mess she has made and she should never have been trusted with Brexit.


She has bent over backwards to appease the brextremists and they stabbed her in the back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> She has bent over backwards to appease the brextremists and they stabbed her in the back.


2 thirds of her cabinet where remain voters. So more like appeasing the remainers. I don't blame the leave voting ministers leaving. She stabbed them in the back.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> If Savid Javid or Gove ever leads the party we are lost completely


And if I suppose if Mogg or Johnson lead the party we aren't?? :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And if I suppose if Mogg or Johnson lead the party we aren't?? :Hilarious


Raab is one of the 2 top favourites the other being Javid.
Opinion?


----------



## stockwellcat.

So here we go. May's news conference.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> 2 thirds of her cabinet where remain voters. So more like appeasing the remainers. I don't blame the leave voting ministers leaving. She stabbed them in the back.


How? Her brexit was a hard brexit. NO remainer wanted that! The brextremists forced this upon us & now they've run away blaming May. They all disgust me.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

*David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen Nov 14
Those Brexiteers who contend that the withdrawal agreement now threatens UK
sovereignty... .

..are implicitly admitting UK retained its sovereignty all along as a member of the EU.

.............................................................


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think anyone apart from the fanatic Brexiteers think that No Deal is better than May's Deal, bad though it is. Certainly I haven't seen any Remainer saying that No Deal is better.


Here's one.



KittenKong said:


> Might sound strange but I'd prefer no deal to a May deal that if they're the only options.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How? Her brexit was a hard brexit. NO remainer wanted that! The brextremists forced this upon us & now they've run away blaming May. They all disgust me.


It ended up playing straight into remainers hands. She agreed to almost everything the EU wanted. So it is a remainer brexit. Read the agreement which I guess you haven't done yet.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen Nov 14
> Those Brexiteers who contend that the withdrawal agreement now threatens UK
> sovereignty... .
> 
> .............................................................


The Brexitier MP's are against it and so are remainer MP's. Not one MP raised their hands to back her deal.
Remainer MP's rejected it because they said they would reject any deal she brought back to the UK even though it gave the remainers practically what they wanted except a 2nd referendum.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It ended up playing straight into remainers hands. She agreed to almost everything the EU wanted. So it is a remainer brexit. Read the agreement which I guess you haven't done yet.


Im just going to refer you back to this.

_May is rubbish. Historically rubbish, worthy of a whole chapter in the history books exploring her unique inadequacies. But at least she's tried. The protesters today, out there demonstrating against the existence of reality, are a much sadder spectacle.

This pitiful attempt to pretend that they are somehow not responsible for where we are. They've had over two years to provide a credible outline of how to pursue their goal. They provided nothing but waffle and lies.

The irony is that the joint agreement in December, and in all likelihood this deal, actually accommodates their bullshit. It says you can try to fix the Irish border promise - which they made, over and over again - by a future relationship.

There's your technical solutions, you cretinous baboons. If you really believed in it, you'd go right for it. But you don't, so you won't. Because it's horse shit. Just another lie to pursue your demented nationalism

This has been an object lesson in the emotional inadequacies of reactionaries and should-have-known better conservatives. Nothing more. And now they have the gall to say: Oh not this Brexit. I want the one I spaffed out in my head over breakfast the other day.

Well not so much. No scarpering now. Vote for it or don't, but this is done in your name. It's your project, executed by a prime minister desperate for your support. And guess what? It's going to be shit_



stockwellcat. said:


> None of them are.
> The Brexitier MP's are against it and so are remainer MP's. Not one MP raised their hands to back her deal.
> Remainer MP's rejected it because they said they would reject any deal she brought back to the UK even though it gave the remainers practically what they wanted except a referendum.


Sorry, you've lost me.


----------



## Elles

Hard Brexit? 

Have you read it? It’s barely a brexit at all, it even gives the opportunity for the Eu member countries to reject any Brexit and keep us in. 

If that’s anyone’s idea of a hard brexit, it’s very different from mine.

Bar an actual promise to stay in the Eu and there’s no promise to leave either, it’s what Remainers want.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Im just going to refer you back to this.
> 
> _May is rubbish. Historically rubbish, worthy of a whole chapter in the history books exploring her unique inadequacies. But at least she's tried. The protesters today, out there demonstrating against the existence of reality, are a much sadder spectacle.
> 
> This pitiful attempt to pretend that they are somehow not responsible for where we are. They've had over two years to provide a credible outline of how to pursue their goal. They provided nothing but waffle and lies.
> 
> The irony is that the joint agreement in December, and in all likelihood this deal, actually accommodates their bullshit. It says you can try to fix the Irish border promise - which they made, over and over again - by a future relationship.
> 
> There's your technical solutions, you cretinous baboons. If you really believed in it, you'd go right for it. But you don't, so you won't. Because it's horse shit. Just another lie to pursue your demented nationalism
> 
> This has been an object lesson in the emotional inadequacies of reactionaries and should-have-known better conservatives. Nothing more. And now they have the gall to say: Oh not this Brexit. I want the one I spaffed out in my head over breakfast the other day.
> 
> Well not so much. No scarpering now. Vote for it or don't, but this is done in your name. It's your project, executed by a prime minister desperate for your support. And guess what? It's going to be shit_
> 
> Sorry, you've lost me.


You haven't read the agreement so you are just on the bandwagon not knowing what you are arguing about.
May agreed to almost everything the EU asked for. No hard brexit. It is a remainer Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Some of us haven't had the chance to look at the detail yet...
> 
> I'd like for workers rights to remain in line with the EU or higher, and also environmental and food legislation. I don't see why the average worker and the environment should suffer because some rich people would prefer to be able to treat both people and the planet as profit-making machines.


But Brexit is all about bulldozing workers' rights. They want a low paid competitive economy in competition with other low wage economies such as in the far east.

Why do you think the Tories opposed the introduction of the minimum wage when Labour proposed this in 1997? I knew people working on £2-90 an hour in 1996. I should know, I worked there briefly. The staff were denied any enhancements, even at Christmas and were treated like dirt by the management, but it was work.

In later years EU legislation has enabled not only for people not forced to work over 37.5hrs if they don't want to, but holiday entitlements and pay for casual workers.

Not only will this be lost they'll be, "No fault dismissals" too where an employer can legally dismiss someone because their face doesn't fit.

I can imagine a woman getting dismissed for becoming pregnant or for refusing a dodgy boss's advances. Totally legal in a post Brexit UK with sweet FA that can be done about it.

As it is, the UK has one of the lowest state pension rates within the EU. I guess a post Brexit UK will see that diminishing further as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I guess none of the remainers on here or stood outside parliament have actually read the agreement. They would be surprised if they did at how much May backed down and appeased the remainers and gave remainers what they wanted.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Hard Brexit?
> 
> Have you read it? It's barely a brexit at all, it even gives the opportunity for the Eu member countries to reject any Brexit and keep us in.
> 
> If that's anyone's idea of a hard brexit, it's very different from mine.
> 
> Bar an actual promise to stay in the Eu and there's no promise to leave either, it's what Remainers want.


Not on Theresa May's terms.
Remainers don't want that, at least all the ones I know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not on Theresa May's terms.
> Remainers don't want that, at least all the ones I know.


But why? She gave remainers what they wanted bar a referendum. The UK to remain shackled to the EU in a customs union.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Here's one.


May I ask why?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Here's one.


Doesn't mean I think no deal is good though, not would I vote for that!

It's Theresa May's deal I object to. I'd rather see no deal than to ser her portrayed as a hero the BBC 6 O'Clock News tried to show her as yesterday.

Not that I'd say any of the others are any better. The only person I consider worse than May is Tommy Robinson, but I very much doubt he would take over May as PM!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Hard Brexit?
> 
> Have you read it? *It's barely a brexit at all*, it even gives the opportunity for the Eu member countries to reject any Brexit and keep us in.
> 
> If that's anyone's idea of a hard brexit, it's very different from mine.
> 
> Bar an actual promise to stay in the Eu and there's no promise to leave either, it's what Remainers want.


This is just the Withdrawal Agreement, though, and it leads us into the Transition Period; which we've always known will be much the same as the status quo, so it's not supposed to be a Brexit. There is hardly any detail about the future trading relationship, which is one reason I don't like it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

What a disappointment, I thought she was going to resign.








edited for spelling


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> What a appointment, I thought she was going to resign.


No. She is going to fight on.
I wish remainers would read the agreement as it plays straight into their hands and totally against what leave voters voted for.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Im just going to refer you back to this.
> 
> _May is rubbish. Historically rubbish, worthy of a whole chapter in the history books exploring her unique inadequacies. But at least she's tried. The protesters today, out there demonstrating against the existence of reality, are a much sadder spectacle.
> 
> This pitiful attempt to pretend that they are somehow not responsible for where we are. They've had over two years to provide a credible outline of how to pursue their goal. They provided nothing but waffle and lies.
> 
> The irony is that the joint agreement in December, and in all likelihood this deal, actually accommodates their bullshit. It says you can try to fix the Irish border promise - which they made, over and over again - by a future relationship.
> 
> There's your technical solutions, you cretinous baboons. If you really believed in it, you'd go right for it. But you don't, so you won't. Because it's horse shit. Just another lie to pursue your demented nationalism
> 
> This has been an object lesson in the emotional inadequacies of reactionaries and should-have-known better conservatives. Nothing more. And now they have the gall to say: Oh not this Brexit. I want the one I spaffed out in my head over breakfast the other day.
> 
> Well not so much. No scarpering now. Vote for it or don't, but this is done in your name. It's your project, executed by a prime minister desperate for your support. And guess what? It's going to be shit_
> 
> Sorry, you've lost me.


In response to SWC's comments 
I repeat, May's deal is not wanted by remainers' no more than by brexiters.

She thought she could dictate her terms to the EU based on her xenophobia towards "none British" people while taking control of our lives.

I know some people detest Tony Blair for his involvement in the Iraq war. I can understand that even if I don't agree.

I feel like that about Theresa May over the disgusting Windrush scandal, the people she's made to suffer by forced deportations, dismissals, denied NHS treatment, you name it.

Although she cannot be personally blamed for Universal Credit she embraces the policy that's caused hardship and suffering for so many.

She couldn't shed a tear for the Genfell Tower victims yet did when her election gamble cost her the majority.

People suggest we should feel sorry for her. Bloody joke! I'll save my sympathy and support towards those lives she ruined through Windrush etc.

Like Thatcher before her she'll have brought her downfall on herself if it comes.


----------



## Elles

I’m starting to think that if Theresa May stood outside Number 10 and said we’re staying in, Remainers would reject it.

Aren’t we discussing the proposed deal with the Eu, not May’s history?


----------



## Pappychi

KittenKong said:


> Doesn't mean I think no deal is good though, not would I vote for that!
> 
> It's Theresa May's deal I object to. I'd rather see no deal than to ser her portrayed as a hero the BBC 6 O'Clock News tried to show her as yesterday.
> 
> Not that I'd say any of the others are any better. The only person I consider worse than May is Tommy Robinson, but I very much doubt he would take over May as PM!


Many of you know I never comment on political threads and a lot of you won't know who I am because I'm rarely on here.

ANYWAY.

The last sentence struck me because I genuinely fear this especially from the very strict Brexiters who voted for a hard Brexit.

In the unlikely event Brexit is scrapped its a real fear of mine we will see the rise of the far right in politics.

It's a precipis we are sat on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> In response to SWC's comments
> I repeat, May's deal is not wanted by remainers' no more than by brexiters.
> 
> She thought she could dictate her terms to the EU based on her xenophobia towards "none British" people while taking control of our lives.
> 
> I know some people detest Tony Blair for his involvement in the Iraq war. I can understand that even if I don't agree.
> 
> I feel like that about Theresa May over the disgusting Windrush scandal, the people she's made to suffer by forced deportations, dismissals, denied NHS treatment, you name it.
> 
> Although she cannot be personally blamed for Universal Credit she embraces the policy that's caused hardship and suffering for so many.
> 
> She couldn't shed a tear for the Genfell Tower victims yet did when her election gamble cost her the majority.
> 
> People suggest we should feel sorry for her. Bloody joke! I'll save my sympathy and support towards those lives she ruined through Windrush etc.
> 
> Like Thatcher before her she'll have brought her downfall on herself if it comes.


You can speak to me instead of abreviating my username and replying to someone elses post.

You would have rejected the deal anyway even though it is in remains favour.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> This is just the Withdrawal Agreement, though, and it leads us into the Transition Period; *which we've always known* will be much the same as the status quo, so it's not supposed to be a Brexit. There is hardly any detail about the future trading relationship, which is one reason I don't like it.


Who's this WE " which we've always known"?????

Crystal ball gazers perhaps?????

The truth is no one knows and the outcome of future negotiations could be very different to the one you imagine.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Deluded
> 
> No. She is going to fight on.
> I wish remainers would read the agreement as it plays straight into their hands and totally against what leave voters voted for.


Don't need to. May is, " taking control of borders, laws and ending our rights to FOM". That's more than enough for me.

It only plays into HER hands, no-one elses.

It's totally against what Remain voters voted for too.

They voted to stay fully in the EU or at least accept full EEA and CU.

May's deal nowhere near goes towards any of that. Even if it did it would only be for a limited period.


----------



## rona

I still admire Theresa, disagree with her but still admire.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Don't need to. May is, " taking control of borders, laws and ending our rights to FOM". That's more than enough for me.
> 
> It only plays into HER hands, no-one elses.
> 
> It's totally against what Remain voters voted for too.
> 
> They voted to stay fully in the EU or at least accept full EEA and CU.
> 
> May's deal nowhere near goes towards any of that. Even if it did it would only be for a limited period.


You really don't understand the agreement do you?
As long as the UK stays in the Customs Union nothing changes with the FOM. What is the end date of FOM? 20xx is the answer. Is that 2099?


----------



## stockwellcat.

When this agreement is agreed it cannot be changed without the agreement of the 27 remaining members. So we have an open ended Customs Union and endless free movement. @KittenKong you and I will be long gone before they fill in what xx for the end date so remainers of today got what they wanted but fail to read the agreement and digest it and instead get on the bandwagon.


----------



## Elles

Gibraltar (and Cyprus) should be happy. Special protocols being put in place will mean people there will continue to live and work as they do today.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Who's this WE " which we've always known"?????
> 
> Crystal ball gazers perhaps?????
> 
> The truth is no one knows and the outcome of future negotiations could be very different to the one you imagine.


Future negotiations are very much unknown, but my post referred specifically to the Transition Period, the details of which were agreed in March and are pretty much the same as our current EU membership.

This piece from the BBC in March details them quite well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43456502

I should, though, have said '8 months' rather than 'always'.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> What a appointment, I thought she was going to resign.


That will never happen unless someone truly stands up to her as Hestletine did with Thatcher. Otherwise May will continue into her '90s as Robert Mugabe did....



Elles said:


> I'm starting to think that if Theresa May stood outside Number 10 and said we're staying in, Remainers would reject it.
> 
> Aren't we discussing the proposed deal with the Eu, not May's history?


That would never happen, that would be like The Queen declaring herself to be a republican and abolishing her status as Queen.

Only Theresa May believes in her deal. She's had a further 8 resignations including, significantly, her second Brexit secretary.

Whatever side you're on and what political party you support how much longer can this embarrassing farce continue for?

It's no surprise a once respected part of Europe is now seen as a laughing stock.

Does May really believe parliament and the general population will come round to her way of thinking?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> *That will never happen unless someone truly stands up to her as Hestletine did with Thatcher. Otherwise May will continue into her '90s as Robert Mugabe did..*..
> 
> That would never happen, that would be like The Queen declaring herself to be a republican and abolishing her status as Queen.
> 
> Only Theresa May believes in her deal. She's had a further 8 resignations including, significantly, her second Brexit secretary.
> 
> Whatever side you're on and what political party you support how much longer can this embarrassing farce continue for?
> 
> It's no surprise a once respected part of Europe is now seen as a laughing stock.
> 
> Does May really believe parliament and the general population will come round to her way of thinking?


What a load of twaddle!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Hard Brexit?
> 
> Have you read it? It's barely a brexit at all, it even gives the opportunity for the Eu member countries to reject any Brexit and keep us in.
> 
> If that's anyone's idea of a hard brexit, it's very different from mine.
> 
> Bar an actual promise to stay in the Eu and there's no promise to leave either, it's what Remainers want.


If you think we'd be fine crashing out without a deal, a hard brexit to remainers like me, would be VERY different to your idea of a hard brexit Elles

_#WithdrawalAgreement is very strong on preventing state aid but much weaker on workers' rights and environmental protections. 
The non-regression clauses are stronger than a typical Free Trade Agreement but far weaker than current EU requirements. Reflects Govt & EU priorities_

This is disastrous to me.

.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You really don't understand the agreement do you?
> As long as the UK stays in the Customs Union nothing changes with the FOM. What is the end date of FOM? 20xx is the answer. Is that 2099?





Elles said:


> Gibraltar (and Cyprus) should be happy. Special protocols being put in place will mean people there will continue to live and work as they do today.


The transition period is set to end in December 2021. For many this is worse. I've heard many saying, "Wish it was all over". To prolong the agony and uncertainty will only have a negative effect.

Think I'd rather know the outcome next March than wait another couple of years for it.

Of course May could be replaced by a moderate who might decide on a full EEA+CU membership but Theresa May will most likely still be in power by the time the transition period ends. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Anglea Merkel has said this evening this is the end of the road of the negotiations there are no more negotiations to be had. She said all parties left Brussels under with the view of a deal being struck . Therefore there is no return to the negotiating table. No deal is what will happen if Parliament reject the deal. No Deal is more probable than ever now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The transition period is set to end in December 2021. For many this is worse. I've heard many saying, "Wish it was all over". To prolong the agony and uncertainty will only have a negative effect.
> 
> Think I'd rather know the outcome next March than wait another couple of years for it.
> 
> Of course May could be replaced by a moderate who might decide on a full EEA+CU membership but Theresa May will most likely still be in power by the time the transition period ends. Hope I'm wrong.


Read my comment above. EU members are now coming forward and saying literally the same thing.


----------



## Elles

How are crashing out without a deal?

We’re discussing the deal negotiated between the Eu and Theresa May. The Eu are happy with it and TM has pretty much capitulated on practically everything. I think I’m reading and watching different news.


----------



## noushka05

New @SkyData snap poll:

Of the three Brexit outcomes Theresa May says are available, would you prefer a) her deal,
b) no deal or c) no Brexit?

No Brexit 54%

No deal 32%

Her deal 14%


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> When this agreement is agreed it cannot be changed without the agreement of the 27 remaining members. So we have an open ended Customs Union and endless free movement. @KittenKong you and I will be long gone before they fill in what xx for the end date so remainers of today got what they wanted but fail to read the agreement and digest it and instead get on the bandwagon.


How many more times?
Remainers' do not want Brexit!!!!!!

So why on earth do you think we should support Theresa May's plan anymore than a Brexiter should?

She insists on delivering the vote YOU voted for, not what remainers' did.

That must annoy you as much as I get annoyed at any suggestion I should in any way support Theresa May's plan!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> How many more times?
> Remainers' do not want Brexit!!!!!!
> 
> So why on earth do you think we should support Theresa May's plan anymore than a Brexiter should?
> 
> She insists on delivering the vote YOU voted for, not what remainers' did.
> 
> That must annoy you as much as I get annoyed at any suggestion I should in any way support Theresa May's plan!


You're the one annoyed not me.

Anglea Merkel is saying this is the end of the negotiations.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> How are crashing out without a deal?
> 
> We're discussing the deal negotiated between the Eu and Theresa May. The Eu are happy with it and TM has pretty much capitulated on practically everything. I think I'm reading and watching different news.


I was trying to explain (badly) how your idea of a hard deal & remainers like me idea of a hard deal are polls apart.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 3h3 hours ago
I'm so angry at the Brexiter unicornologists who now abandon the sinking ship and abandon those voters who, strangled by austerity, trusted the lies about £350m 
a week and immigration and taking back control and are left to stare at the charred wreckage of what they were promised


----------



## KittenKong

Hear!







hear!


----------



## KittenKong

Bring it on!


----------



## Elles

Remainers don’t want any version of Brexit, so tbh there’s no point asking them about it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Anglea Merkel has said this evening this is the end of the road of the negotiations there are no more negotiations to be had. She said all parties left Brussels under with the view of a deal being struck . Therefore there is no return to the negotiating table. No deal is what will happen if Parliament reject the deal. No Deal is more probable than ever now.


May Deal is at least giving some sort of protection for jobs, for NI , for business.

Which means it is better than no deal.

But obviously worse than remaining as we will have no say in EU.

That we will have no say in EU comes as a huge surprise to many Leave supporters.

So if you want to have a say you would have to stay I am afraid.

EU is far from ideal but it was far better to pull together and make it better than trying to pull it down and at what price?

The Leavers had mostly unrealistic expectations simply as a result of cynical propaganda - had people where given the true information what Brexit means with no deal would they put their livelihoods at risk?

All that is to May Deal is plain damage limitation.

Clearly showing that no damage is better than some damage?

But as this fantastic Iranian comedian pointed " We made our decision".

I laughed but my OH, though Remainer said" But is not a bad thing ". But there, he is British :Hilarious

" Let's have it done"

:Banghead

*no British people were harmed during making this post, but there was a slight danger of heavy objects flying towards certain thick OH.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> What a load of twaddle!


I think I'd go for hyperbole rather than twaddle


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Remainers don't want any version of Brexit, so tbh there's no point asking them about it.


Obviously, hence why we voted remain. But this deal is a complete and utter shambles.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 9h9 hours ago
PM's deal won't get through the Commons. No deal has nowhere near parliamentary majority. We risk chaos. Job losses. Businesses going under. Environmental rules being torn up.

Does this sound like a good deal to you?

........................


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> That will never happen unless someone truly stands up to her as Hestletine did with Thatcher. Otherwise May will continue into her '90s as Robert Mugabe did....
> 
> That would never happen, that would be like The Queen declaring herself to be a republican and abolishing her status as Queen.
> 
> Only Theresa May believes in her deal. She's had a further 8 resignations including, significantly, her second Brexit secretary.
> 
> Whatever side you're on and what political party you support how much longer can this embarrassing farce continue for?
> 
> It's no surprise a once respected part of Europe is now seen as a laughing stock.
> 
> Does May really believe parliament and the general population will come round to her way of thinking?


Now that Moggie has very publicly passed his letter of No Confidence, it will be interesting to see what happens. If he's got the influence that his demeanour suggests he commands then there should be no problem in amassing the 48 required letters. Then it gets interesting. Of course, if he doesn't get the 48 letters, then he is belittled, and May is much strengthened.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Anglea Merkel and her comments about the deal on the table.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1NK1LR

"We have a document on the table that Britain and the EU 27 have agreed to, so for me there is no question at the moment whether we negotiate further,"


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I was trying to explain (badly) how your idea of a hard deal & remainers like me idea of a hard deal are *polls *apart.


What a marvellously appropriate typo!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Bring it on!
> View attachment 375981


One thing that has always nudged my brain sideways is how the Tories talk about our 'precious Union' but accuse the EU of all sorts of evil because they want to protect their own European Union by insisting that members should have better terms than non-members. Very odd, I always think.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Remainers don't want any version of Brexit, so tbh there's no point asking them about it.


It's not really surprising though, is it?

Personally, I feel, in part, European. Brexit in any form represents an edict that I can't be European any more. How could I be happy with that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The No Confidence vote will not possibly happen and here is why. Even if 48 letters are received each candidate has to have 2 independent MP's backing them. Then a percentage of the Conservative party willing to back each member. At the moment Theresa May has a huge backing in her party even with this deal being presented. So she can stop a no confidence vote without doing anything as those calling for a vote of no confidence have to get a certain percentage of MP's backing them for a leadship challenge and the numbers are not there.

MP's that have sent in letters are already talking about withdrawing from their vote of no confidence letter.

Sky News explained it perfectly earlier.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> What a marvellously appropriate typo!


 I'd like to say it was deliberate but I'd be lying


----------



## cheekyscrip

So much for orderly Exit.

How endearing to see Corbyn and Moggie united in desire to bring May down at any price.

Even my TV refused to transmit that... no signal!


Can Moggie and Corbyn with BoJo and Farage form their own Exit party?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It's not really surprising though, is it?
> 
> Personally, I feel, in part, European. Brexit in any form represents an edict that I can't be European any more. How could I be happy with that?


No it's not surprising, what is surprising is that they're having all kinds of kittens about this particular deal as though there is one they'd accept. There isn't. Theresa May is trying to keep us in the Eu without actually keeping us in the Eu, keeping us tied to the Eu and the only ones who are pleased with it are the Eu. If Remainers would accept some form of Brexit, this should probably be pretty close, but they want a second vote, so don't even discuss the deal.

Aren't you pleased that Gib is going to be treated as a special case after all and nothing will change @cheekyscrip ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit: EU leaders dismiss talk of renegotiating draft agreement*

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-46228454

EU leaders have dismissed talk of renegotiating the draft Brexit deal and warned the UK's political situation could make a "no-deal" more likely.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said there was "no question" of reopening talks as a document was "on the table".

Meanwhile French PM Edouard Philippe said there was a need to prepare for a no-deal because of UK "uncertainty".

The EU has set out a series of meetings leading up to 25 November when it plans to approve the Brexit agreement.

However leaders admit that there is still much ground to cover after the UK Prime Minister Theresa May won backing on Wednesday from her cabinet for the 585-page draft agreement.

"We still have a long road ahead of us on both sides," the EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said.

On Thursday, Mrs Merkel said she was pleased that progress had been made.

But following news of resignations from Mrs May's cabinet, including the UK's Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab , she said it was possible that Britain may still leave without a deal.

She also said that there was no appetite for further talks on possible amendments to the current agreement.

"We have a document on the table that Britain and the EU 27 have agreed to, so for me there is no question at the moment whether we negotiate further," she said.

Mr Philippe appeared to echo her sentiment over UK political uncertainty.

"It will escape no-one that the current political situation in Britain could fuel uncertainty... over the ratification of the accord," he said.

*How have other European leaders reacted?*
The European Parliament's Brexit chief Guy Verhofstadt said the deal had been hammered out after two years of "intense negotiations" and he hoped UK MPs would accept that "there is not a lot of room [for] manoeuvre to say, 'OK, let's start again'".

French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said the deal was "good news for the French economy" but also issued caution, saying the UK must be made to respect all EU rules.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> So much for orderly Exit.
> 
> How endearing to see Corbyn and Moggie united in desire to bring May down at any price.
> 
> Even my TV refused to transmit that... no signal!
> 
> Can Moggie and Corbyn with BoJo and Farage form their own Exit party?


I would be angry if Corbyn didn't vote against Mays deal, he is in opposition and this deal is a disaster - Mays government has been an all round disaster.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> No it's not surprising, what is surprising is that they're having all kinds of kittens about this particular deal as though there is one they'd accept. There isn't. Theresa May is trying to keep us in the Eu without actually keeping us in the Eu, keeping us tied to the Eu and the only ones who are pleased with it are the Eu. If Remainers would accept some form of Brexit, this should probably be pretty close, but they want a second vote, so don't even discuss the deal.
> 
> Aren't you pleased that Gib is going to be treated as a special case after all and nothing will change @cheekyscrip ?


Until I see the small print ... taxes and la cola...
But obviously some people want No Deal without the slightest bother where it will Leave us or NI, Channel Islands and so on...


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU have said if the UK Parliament votes this deal down it's no deal. They are not prepared to renegotiate.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Until I see the small print ... taxes and la cola...
> But obviously some people want No Deal without the slightest bother where it will Leave us or NI, Channel Islands and so on...


Yes and many of those pushing it into a no deal scenario are Remainers.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I would be angry if Corbyn didn't vote against Mays deal, he is in opposition and this deal is a disaster - Mays government has been an all round disaster.


Interesting is what will be next...
New referendum?
Corbyn is not a fan.
Remain- he forced Labour to vote for Article 50 not against so effectively forced his party into this disaster.
No Article 50 - no May Deal.
Labour had a chance to stop that insanity.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yes and many of those pushing it into a no deal scenario are Remainers.


No deal and May Deal are not the only options.
Instead of a bad deal and worse No Deal we might just as well stay in EU.

Which would be reasonable, sensible and so not likely to appeal to Joe Blogg.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It is the remainers showing the UK up on the World stage and are now pushing the UK into a no deal senario. The deal is deeply in favour of the remainers yet they are rejecting it and pushing the no deal scenario.

The EU have made it absolutely clear the draft deal is on the table and if the UK Parliament vote it down it will be no deal. No second referendums etc. They are not prepared to change the deal by re-negotiation either.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-is-the-only-fan-of-her-own-draft-brexit-deal-11554877


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 375983
> 
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-is-the-only-fan-of-her-own-draft-brexit-deal-11554877


Well I hope you like the idea of a no deal as this is what remainers are doing, pushing the UK closer to no deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I hope you like the idea of a no deal, harming the economy etc as this is what remainers are doing, pushing the UK closer to no deal.


So if we haveNo Deal Brexit whose fault it is then?
EU or Remain?
Please, make up your mind


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yes and many of those pushing it into a no deal scenario are Remainers.


There is a huge majority in the Commons against a No Deal. It isn't going to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So if we haveNo Deal Brexit whose fault it is then?
> EU or Remain?
> Please, make up your mind


Well you decide. Remainers will be blaming the EU for decades to come :Hilarious even though they pushed the UK into a no deal by rejecting the deal that is in their favour. The EU have made it clwlear what will happen if the UK Parliament rejects the deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> There is a huge majority in the Commons against a No Deal. It isn't going to happen.


The EU will declare no deal not Parliament. No votes in Parliament for no deal needed. Parliament are blindly with the remainers pushing the UK into a no deal. I know you will ignore this but you chose to do that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well you decide. Remainers will be blaming the EU for decades to come :Hilarious even though they pushed the UK into a no deal by rejecting the deal that is in their favour.


Why Remain should blame EU? I think Remain actually understands that thing about the cakes. The cherry one that you cannot apparently have and eat it.

There is a Good Deal. Stay in EU.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Interesting is what will be next...
> New referendum?
> Corbyn is not a fan.
> Remain- he forced Labour to vote for Article 50 not against so effectively forced his party into this disaster.
> No Article 50 - no May Deal.
> Labour had a chance to stop that insanity.


If May stays then I think a new referendum is the only option. The Commons will vote down her deal, and will not allow No Deal. She has then to go back to the People and offer them Her Deal, No Deal, or No Brexit.

What else can she do? She says she's done as well as she can, and Merkel has already said there's no more negotiation to be done.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Why Remain should blame EU? I think Remain actually understands that thing about the cakes. The cherry one that you cannot apparently have and eat it.
> 
> There is a Good Deal. Stay in EU.


Read the news. The EU have said this evening no renegotiations. It is the deal on the table or no deal and it cannot be re-negotiated.


----------



## stockwellcat.

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Read the news. The EU have said this evening no renegotiations. It is the deal on the table or no deal and it cannot be re-negotiated.


That is if we were Leaving... who knows if they will take us back?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> That is if we were Leaving... who knows if they will take us back?


Why go backwards. Life goes forwards not backwards 
Leaving the EU is about going forward with UK independence from the EU not this deal May negotiated keeping the UK tied to the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Why go backwards. Life goes forwards not backwards
> Leaving the EU is about going forward with UK independence from the EU not this deal May negotiated keeping the UK tied to the EU.


We will altbe tiedo, WTO also has own rules and regulations, can vetoed- Spain, Russia or Argentina... Unless we do North Korea?


----------



## Elles

It seems there’s two choices, no deal or the Eu/May deal. Don’t forget the Eu also negotiated this deal. Everyone is talking as though it was all Theresa May.

If the reason Remainers are against it is because they want a second referendum, they could be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Firstly there’s no guarantee a second referendum will go their way. Secondly the Eu and Europe have said that’s the deal, take it or leave it. So if Leave win again, chances are it will be no deal and that could make a lot of brexiteers very happy. 

It’s not true that only TM is happy with the proposed deal. The Eu and most of Europe is too and some of the folk in places like Gib and Cyprus. Of course if a no brexit at all is forced from this, they will all be ecstatic and the referendum will have been a complete waste of time. It’s probably also been the plan all along. So much for the Russians and the dark net being in charge.

Good luck to the young who were conned by Jeremy Corbyn and had no idea what they were voting for. Mr Brexit pulled the wool over their eyes didn’t he. For Remainers Theresa May has been your greatest ally, that you can’t see it probably just makes her more likely to be successful. If she manages to hang on in there.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It seems there's two choices, no deal or the Eu/May deal. Don't forget the Eu also negotiated this deal. Everyone is talking as though it was all Theresa May.
> 
> If the reason Remainers are against it is because they want a second referendum, they could be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
> 
> Firstly there's no guarantee a second referendum will go their way. Secondly the Eu and Europe have said that's the deal, take it or leave it. So if Leave win again, chances are it will be no deal and that could make a lot of brexiteers very happy.
> 
> It's not true that only TM is happy with the proposed deal. The Eu and most of Europe is too and some of the folk in places like Gib and Cyprus. Of course if a no brexit at all is forced from this, they will all be ecstatic and the referendum will have been a complete waste of time. It's probably also been the plan all along. So much for the Russians and the dark net being in charge.
> 
> Good luck to the young who were conned by Jeremy Corbyn and had no idea what they were voting for. Mr Brexit pulled the wool over their eyes didn't he. For Remainers Theresa May has been your greatest ally, that you can't see it probably just makes her more likely to be successful. If she manages to hang on in there.


I see your point, especially as to con Corbyn.


----------



## MollySmith




----------



## MollySmith




----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It seems there's two choices, no deal or the Eu/May deal. Don't forget the Eu also negotiated this deal. Everyone is talking as though it was all Theresa May.
> 
> If the reason Remainers are against it is because they want a second referendum, they could be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
> 
> Firstly there's no guarantee a second referendum will go their way. Secondly the Eu and Europe have said that's the deal, take it or leave it. So if Leave win again, chances are it will be no deal and that could make a lot of brexiteers very happy.
> 
> It's not true that only TM is happy with the proposed deal. The Eu and most of Europe is too and some of the folk in places like Gib and Cyprus. Of course if a no brexit at all is forced from this, they will all be ecstatic and the referendum will have been a complete waste of time. It's probably also been the plan all along. So much for the Russians and the dark net being in charge.
> 
> Good luck to the young who were conned by Jeremy Corbyn and had no idea what they were voting for. Mr Brexit pulled the wool over their eyes didn't he. For Remainers Theresa May has been your greatest ally, that you can't see it probably just makes her more likely to be successful. If she manages to hang on in there.


Sorry, but that's complete and utter rubbish.

At anytime May could have chosen to withdraw A50 or at least abide to EEA+CU rules but she's resisted everything they offered.

She then came on national television whinging they won't back her plan. The EU are hardly going to change their entire foundation to please a soon to be former member with a PM with fascist tendencies aren't they.

The EU have been the reasonable ones throughout. The EU have proved they have no wish to punish the UK population by offering visa free holidays on the rightful condition TM agrees the same.

You insist I should support Theresa May? You have got to be kidding. I bloody can't stand the vile and disgusting woman. She turns my stomach every time she opens her mouth, appears on television or I see a photo of her. She really is the living Mrs Twit.

And, before you suggest this, I am not being sexist. The best leader the UK could wish for, if that was possible, is Nicola Sturgeon.

Now, she's a leader I WILL stick up for and follow.

But a fascist like May, England's own Marie Le Pen? Don't make me laugh!

The best leader would be someone who backs a Peoples' Vote with the option to remain. Anything less than that is not acceptable.

As for Corbyn, it's encouraging he's not in favour of May's deal either. It's certainly a step in the right direction.

Actually, as much as I might disagree with Brexiters for obvious reasons, I find myself agreeing with them when it comes to Theresa May.

Witness the comments I uploaded from JRM supporters recently for example. I couldn't help but fully agree with them when it comes to May.

Surely, brexiters against May should be delighted we share some common understanding when it comes to her, in much the same way I'm delighted we agree on something in spite of very different reasons for doing so.

So please, no suggestion us remainers' should be back May in the same sense I won't re-enforce her mantra she's delivering the brexit you and other leavers' voted for!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Spot on.


----------



## Elles

So what she should have done is stayed in the Eu like she wanted to in the first place and ignored the referendum? 

The Eu negotiated this deal too.  It’s what they’ve agreed to and want. You don’t want the Eu deal? 

I think some people spit the same kind of venom at the Eu leaders who haven’t been whiter than white and for them they can do no good either. Not all their policies are good for people or environment. It would seem Remainers don’t trust the Eu. It is the deal they’re offering.


----------



## Elles

I thought the Russians and some underground powerful people manipulate us through Facebook, Twitter and the media? Is it the Russian’s influence turning against Theresa May to split us further from the Eu, or Donald Trump maybe, he’s not being complimentary either. And no I’m not being facetious. Don’t you wonder why TM and the Eu are in favour of this deal, but all these sources that were accused of some kind of nefarious influence are on the attack?


----------



## grumpy goby

Elles said:


> So what she should have done is stayed in the Eu like she wanted to in the first place and ignored the referendum?
> 
> The Eu negotiated this deal too. It's what they've agreed to and want. You don't want the Eu deal?
> 
> I think some people spit the same kind of venom at the Eu leaders who haven't been whiter than white and for them they can do no good either. Not all their policies are good for people or environment. It would seem Remainers don't trust the Eu. It is the deal they're offering.


As a remainer it just doesn't seem to resolve much except allow trade to continue, Ireland doesn't seem to be resolved, fishing questions arent resolved, residency in the EU for those living there isn't resolved... it kinda smacks of "some of the perks, none of the say, lots of uncertainty"

To be honest though she is on a hiding to nothing. Brexit politicians promised the impossible and then critique her for being unable to negotiate impossible terms. It was always going to be a poison chalice for whoever was in her seat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The deal we got is the one on the table. It does not make sense one bit that remainers are rejecting it without reading the agreement in full because it is in your favour as there will be an open ended Customs Union which is what you wanted.

Any how I am fed up with the venom coming from some who obviously haven't read the agreement text and are just on the bandwagon not knowing what is said in the agreement. Remember as @Elles has said the EU negotiated this deal as well, not just May. The EU are happy with the deal so why aren't you?

Some EU leaders have basically said tonight this deal cannot be renegotiated and if it is rejected by Parliament in the UK then no deal will happen. So keep pushing for no deal remainers as that is what you are blindly doing because you are so caught up in trying to disrupt Brexit. I will say it one more time, the deal is in your favour and you are rejecting it.

I am venturing to other threads as this forum is more than just this thread.


----------



## Jesthar

My new favourite tweet over Raab resigning in protest of the deal he negotiated:

 
David Whitley *✔* @mrdavidwhitley 
Raab is absolutely the sort of man who arranges to go paintballing at 9am on the second day of a stag do, then doesn't show up, citing his hangover.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well you decide. Remainers will be blaming the EU for decades to come :Hilarious even though they pushed the UK into a no deal by rejecting the deal that is in their favour. The EU have made it clwlear what will happen if the UK Parliament rejects the deal.


Who pulled the trigger? It wasn't the EU. The EU didn't want the UK to leave. So why do you think remainers will blame the EU?



stockwellcat. said:


> Why go backwards. Life goes forwards not backwards
> Leaving the EU is about going forward with UK independence from the EU not this deal May negotiated keeping the UK tied to the EU.


Brexit is all about going backwards, not forwards.

Even as an EU member the UK hasn't completely phased out imperial measurements. I believe, with the exception of the US which has its own version it's the only area left that still uses feet and inches and yards and miles.

I've heard suggestions if the UK wants to be available to trade with the world it must fully adopt the metric system. Now that wouldn't go down well with Brexiters' I'm sure, even if Australia and NZ have done, which the EU can't hardly be blamed for even if the metric system originated in France.

I've lost count at the times I've heard people say how Brexit will, "Bring back" the past. Death penalty, pounds and ounces, Sundays to be "special" again, Britain for the British, National service. Indeed I've yet to hear a brexiter mention anything about looking forward which isn't anything to do with the past.

No wonder countries like Germany are way ahead of the UK. Not the fault of the EU nor Germany. If they looked to Germany for inspiration rather than the US it might still have a car industry.

But no, it's still stuck in the, "We won the war" mentality. Oh yes, we've heard a lot of that from many Brexiters lately as well haven't we.

And British Nationalism isn't anything new either. That's already been done in Germany in the 1930s.


----------



## KittenKong

Just like how May insists she's delivering the Brexit the, "British people voted for".









:Hilarious

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lic-support-bbc-radio-interview-a8635386.html


----------



## Elles

You mix with some very strange people @KittenKong I haven't heard anyone saying any of those things whether they voted leave or not. ie death penalty, pounds and ounces, national service etc.

The people I know who voted to leave, voted to leave the Eu, not recreate some kind of Imperial past.

If some remainers will turn down anything that isn't remaining, regardless of what it is and would rather force a no deal scenario that'll be entirely down to them and any discussion would be pointless. It doesn't matter whether the May/Eu deal is good or not, it would never be good enough. No point their reading it, or us discussing it.


----------



## KittenKong

Pappychi said:


> In the unlikely event Brexit is scrapped its a real fear of mine we will see the rise of the far right in politics.


The Brexit vote has already done that. How many had heard of JRM before the referendum? I hadn't for example. These types like Farage and even Tommy Robinson (to some extent) have been, "Normalised" by the BBC in giving them oxygen to spread their filth over numerous occasions. Even Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech was repeated for a new audience. It caused eruptions at the time, let alone in today's "PC" environment which is very US and not brought about by the EU contrary to popular belief...

The existing Tory government have lurched so far to the right they're resembling the British National Party, let alone UKIP.

Then, having said that you are probably right. Perhaps the UK needs to experience Brexit for people to understand what it exactly entails just as they did with the Poll Tax.

We'll see how many would still back it in the event of mass job losses etc. etc.

But of course, a "Royal" baby or a Falklands-like war, say with Spain over Gibraltar will be the ultimate distraction as long as it's not fronted by Tony Blair.

It worked for Thatcher in 1982. Her administration was probably more unpopular as May's is before that.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You mix with some very strange people @KittenKong I haven't heard anyone saying any of those things whether they voted leave or not. ie death penalty, pounds and ounces, national service etc.
> 
> The people I know who voted to leave, voted to leave the Eu, not recreate some kind of Imperial past.
> 
> If some remainers will turn down anything that isn't remaining, regardless of what it is and would rather force a no deal scenario that'll be entirely down to them and any discussion would be pointless. It doesn't matter whether the May/Eu deal is good or not, it would never be good enough. No point their reading it, or us discussing it.


You see quite a lot of this sort of thing on pro leave FB pages if you care to look, how the EU owe "us" nothing as "We" liberated them from the Nazis in the last world war, (not giving allies any credit)..

And what about the popular soundbite we heard again yesterday, "Taking BACK control"? How is that looking forward when it concentrates on the past? What about blue passports no one under 35 will remember?

I could go on.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> The Brexit vote has already done that. How many had heard of JRM before the referendum? I hadn't for example. These types like Farage and even Tommy Robinson (to some extent) have been, "Normalised" by the BBC in giving them oxygen to spread their filth over numerous occasions. Even Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech was repeated for a new audience. It caused eruptions at the time, let alone in today's "PC" environment which is very US and not brought about by the EU contrary to popular belief...
> 
> The existing Tory government have lurched so far to the right they're resembling the British National Party, let alone UKIP.
> 
> Then, having said that you are probably right. Perhaps the UK needs to experience Brexit for people to understand what it exactly entails just as they did with the Poll Tax.
> 
> We'll see how many would still back it in the event of mass job losses etc. etc.
> 
> But of course, a "Royal" baby or a Falklands-like war, say with Spain over Gibraltar will be the ultimate distraction as long as it's not fronted by Tony Blair.
> 
> It worked for Thatcher in 1982. Her administration was probably more unpopular as May's is before that.


Gibraltar or Falklands are NOT a mere " distraction" - to divert public attention from " real" problems.
At that time I was in Poland. But even so young I remember talking about Britain with admiration because they did not abandon those people. 
They could just give it to Argentina and get on with important stuff. Right?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You mix with some very strange people @KittenKong I haven't heard anyone saying any of those things whether they voted leave or not. ie death penalty, pounds and ounces, national service etc.
> 
> The people I know who voted to leave, voted to leave the Eu, not recreate some kind of Imperial past.
> 
> If some remainers will turn down anything that isn't remaining, regardless of what it is and would rather force a no deal scenario that'll be entirely down to them and any discussion would be pointless. It doesn't matter whether the May/Eu deal is good or not, it would never be good enough. No point their reading it, or us discussing it.


Can I ask you, as a Brexiter, are you in favour of Theresa May's Brexit plan? With respect, I sometimes wonder seeing you keep insisting I'm being unreasonable by voicing my opinions against it!



cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar or Falklands are NOT a mere " distraction" - to divert public attention from " real" problems.
> At that time I was in Poland. But even so young I remember talking about Britain with admiration because they did not abandon those people.
> They could just give it to Argentina and get on with important stuff. Right?


The Falklands crisis was avoidable. The government shouldn't have removed their defences around the island as part of austerity and cut backs. Of course the government at the time had to act under the circumstances. I'm not denying or disputing that.

But the media went completely over the top with the jingoism, ignoring what was happening in the UK so it was used as a distraction by them.

Tony Blair said he would have done the same under the circumstances. Do you think he would've received the credit Thatcher did? I doubt that somehow.

To the present, any problems that arises from Brexit such as an end of the GF agreement in Ireland would again have been avoidable.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Interesting is what will be next...
> New referendum?
> Corbyn is not a fan.
> Remain- he forced Labour to vote for Article 50 not against so effectively forced his party into this disaster.
> No Article 50 - no May Deal.
> Labour had a chance to stop that insanity.


Just yesterday John McDonnell said if they get an election a peoples vote is on the table.

And Keir Starmer


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063127492372979712
Its not as simple for labour in regards to article 50, I could understand that first hand coming from a labour stronghold which voted to leave. Here is another article on the labours dilemma by Jonathan Lis who is hardly a 'Corbynite' - http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...s-playing-a-clever-long-game-that-could-benef

Corbyn cannot be compared with dangerous extremists like Mogg, Johnson & co who's only motive is to get even richer at our expense. For all his faults Corbyn has one of the best voting histories I've seen. The tory extremists will bring full blown disaster capitalism to this country, this is what their brexit is all about - it is definitely not Corbyns vision Cheeky.

.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yes and many of those pushing it into a no deal scenario are Remainers.


Here we go, the predicted blame game.


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> If May stays then I think a new referendum is the only option. The Commons will vote down her deal, and will not allow No Deal. She has then to go back to the People and offer them Her Deal, No Deal, or No Brexit.
> 
> What else can she do? She says she's done as well as she can, and Merkel has already said there's no more negotiation to be done.


*As i see things now is this. I think a new referendum wouldn't be a bad idea, but before we have one, ALL of the facts need to be shown to us. Also a deal should be drawn up BEFORE the referendum. Which i'n my opinion would have been the right way to go about things first time around.*


----------



## noushka05

JANICE199 said:


> *As i see things now is this. I think a new referendum wouldn't be a bad idea, but before we have one, ALL of the facts need to be shown to us. Also a deal should be drawn up BEFORE the referendum. Which i'n my opinion would have been the right way to go about things first time around.*


Well said Jan. I could not agree more  x


----------



## JANICE199

noushka05 said:


> Well said Jan. I could not agree more  x


*This whole brexit thing has been a shambles from the word go Noush, no wonder people don't know whether they are coming or going. We have no money, so TM would have us believe, but how much is this mess going to cost us? She should have been out ages ago,*


----------



## noushka05

JANICE199 said:


> *This whole brexit thing has been a shambles from the word go Noush, no wonder people don't know whether they are coming or going. We have no money, so TM would have us believe, but how much is this mess going to cost us? She should have been out ages ago,*


Again, I completely agree with everything you say. Mays shambolic brexit plan will cost us £50 billion Jan:Jawdrop


----------



## JANICE199

noushka05 said:


> Again, I completely agree with everything you say. Mays shambolic brexit plan will cost us £50 billion Jan:Jawdrop


*And wasn't the original cost something like 20 million?  I've said it before and i still believe it, they will leave this mess for Corbyn to sort out. I can't see a good deal coming from either side as things stand. *


----------



## noushka05

JANICE199 said:


> *And wasn't the original cost something like 20 million?  I've said it before and i still believe it, they will leave this mess for Corbyn to sort out. I can't see a good deal coming from either side as things stand. *


I cant remember the original figure. Do you think Corbyn has any chance of getting in? Whatever happens, although the tories own this entire mess, they will no doubt pin the blame on their new favourite scapegoat - Corbyn. And the media will parrot the spin.


----------



## JANICE199

noushka05 said:


> I cant remember the original figure. Do you think Corbyn has any chance of getting in? Whatever happens, although the tories own this entire mess, they will no doubt pin the blame on their new favourite scapegoat - Corbyn. And the media will parrot the spin.


*I do think Corbyn stands a good chance of getting in. If he does, i would love to see him put brexit on the back burner for a couple of years though. As things stand there are more important things this country needs to sort out. Plus, as i said earlier a plan needs to be drawn up before we rush into anything.*


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *As i see things now is this. I think a new referendum wouldn't be a bad idea, but before we have one, ALL of the facts need to be shown to us. Also a deal should be drawn up BEFORE the referendum. Which i'n my opinion would have been the right way to go about things first time around.*


I think that is absolutely right, in that the facts should be known, but by the end of this post I'll be saying the opposite!

To explain: What some people seem to be missing is that this 'Deal' is just the Withdrawal Agreement, and tells us how things are going to be for the next 2 years or so. It is supposed to take into account the 'framework' of a future trading relationship, but that is covered only in a separate 7 page document which says very little indeed and is no more than aspirational. It also contains lots of opportunity for cherry picking demands and flat refusals. The actual Deal has been kicked down the road.

So if we wait to find out what the actual long-term deal is going to be, we will long since have left the EU and re-entry will be a lot harder and less advantageous than staying in - we've got the rebate, no Schengen, no euro, no bail-outs etc. Should Parliament vote through May's Deal and let us leave when they have no idea what the future deal is actually going to be? If they don't - and it's a very big gamble to take - that leaves us with No Deal or a new referendum, but without hard facts on the future.

Maybe I'm not disagreeing with you after all, but I can't see a clear route through UNLESS we are guaranteed that we can choose during the Transition Period that we can still call everything off and remain in the EU on current terms. (And I can't see that happening.)


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I cant remember the original figure. Do you think Corbyn has any chance of getting in? Whatever happens, although the tories own this entire mess, they will no doubt pin the blame on their new favourite scapegoat - Corbyn. And the media will parrot the spin.





JANICE199 said:


> *I do think Corbyn stands a good chance of getting in. If he does, i would love to see him put brexit on the back burner for a couple of years though. As things stand there are more important things this country needs to sort out. Plus, as i said earlier a plan needs to be drawn up before we rush into anything.*


I honestly can't see Corbyn getting in. The Tories are in more disarray than I can ever remember and yet they are still ahead of Labour in the polls. Labour have lost up to 50 seats in Scotland for the foreseeable future. And the Tories won't have May in charge for the next election, which means something better than the absolutely terrible campaign she ran last time.

Another hung Parliament I can see, but a Labour majority? I really don't think so. The only chance is a Labour / SNP coalition ...


----------



## noushka05

JANICE199 said:


> *I do think Corbyn stands a good chance of getting in. If he does, i would love to see him put brexit on the back burner for a couple of years though. As things stand there are more important things this country needs to sort out. Plus, as i said earlier a plan needs to be drawn up before we rush into anything.*


In my lifetime I've never know the country in such a mess, even the miners strike when my Dad had no money for a year, when much of the community were getting fed at the soup kitchen wasnt as bad as this. The current tories terrify me. l The damage they have done to our country is beyond belief. We desperately need a progressive government to redress the balance, one which will help people suffering under austerity & give us environmental justice too.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I honestly can't see Corbyn getting in. The Tories are in more disarray than I can ever remember and yet they are still ahead of Labour in the polls. Labour have lost up to 50 seats in Scotland for the foreseeable future. And the Tories won't have May in charge for the next election, which means something better than the absolutely terrible campaign she ran last time.
> 
> Another hung Parliament I can see, but a Labour majority? I really don't think so. The only chance is a Labour / SNP coalition ...


I'd be more than happy with a progressive coalition. Imagine if Caroline Lucas was Environment Secretary?:Happy


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> I think that is absolutely right, in that the facts should be known, but by the end of this post I'll be saying the opposite!
> 
> To explain: What some people seem to be missing is that this 'Deal' is just the Withdrawal Agreement, and tells us how things are going to be for the next 2 years or so. It is supposed to take into account the 'framework' of a future trading relationship, but that is covered only in a separate 7 page document which says very little indeed and is no more than aspirational. It also contains lots of opportunity for cherry picking demands and flat refusals. The actual Deal has been kicked down the road.
> 
> So if we wait to find out what the actual long-term deal is going to be, we will long since have left the EU and re-entry will be a lot harder and less advantageous than staying in - we've got the rebate, no Schengen, no euro, no bail-outs etc. Should Parliament vote through May's Deal and let us leave when they have no idea what the future deal is actually going to be? If they don't - and it's a very big gamble to take - that leaves us with No Deal or a new referendum, but without hard facts on the future.
> 
> Maybe I'm not disagreeing with you after all, but I can't see a clear route through UNLESS we are guaranteed that we can choose during the Transition Period that we can still call everything off and remain in the EU on current terms. (And I can't see that happening.)


*Forgive me i'm not good at writing long replies, but here goes. I agree with you as regards not seeing a clear route, and this is another reason why the deal has to be made first. If anything isn't clear then they must make it clear. And you say, if there is doubt then give us the option to change our minds.*
*When this whole brexit thing started this is what i said to hubby. " Nobody in their right mind would think of going into any deal without knowing all of the facts,I wouldn't dream of, buying a house ( example), if i didn't know all of the details.So why did we start brexit? Hope that makes sense *


----------



## stockwellcat.

The stuff I read here this morning should have happened when May called the snap general election but people voted May back in. She has no intention of calling another snap general election and therefore Crobyn has no chance of getting in power. The choice on any election before 2022 is May's not Parliaments as Parliaments power to call an early General Election was stripped away from them when Parliament voted through the Parliament act 2011.

According to some EU leaders there is no appetite to return to the negotiating table as the deal on the table is the deal on offer. They had 24 months to negotiate this deal and it has been a headache to get it. So if Parliament reject the deal the UK will have 21 days to present a new deal or face crashing out of the EU (if EU leaders agree to allow this. With extending the negotiating time to November, I doubt very much it will be allowed). EU leaders have said it is to late to start again or start fresh last night. So the ramblings from remainers saying they want to vote against the deal means in doing so no deal becomes the only option, EU leaders voiced this last night. They have no apletite to re-negotiate the deal at all.

So I am affraid if you think Corbyn is your saving grace you are wrong as he wants Brexit to happen to but on his terms. But this won't happen either.

Regarding extending article 50. This has been ruled out by this Government. If there is by a far chance another General Election there is no guarantee Corbyn will win and May will probably win again but with a stronger majority. A leadership challenge may not happen due to numbers and mathematics as May commands the majority in her party and has the strongest backing from MP's. This is why May's speaches are with confidence. Those putting in the no confidence letters are already talking about withdrawing them. This is a no confidence vote against May (the leader) not the Government.

Parliament can try to vote a no confidence vote against the Government but if you really think the largest party in Parliament will vote against there own party being in power I am affraid you are deeply wrong.

Which ever way you look at this it is the end game. Either the deal gets accepted so the UK can move on and discuss it's future relationship with the EU and future trade or it gets voted down and there is a very high risk now of crashing out with no deal. Parliament won't get a say in this no deal situation as EU leaders have made it clear how this will play out.

If the UK wants to withdraw article 50 the 27 countries must unanimously agree. Do you really think they will?


----------



## rona

Come on Theresa has managed something I thought no one could do,,,,,,she's reunited the country to agree on something.......minor miracle


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> If some remainers will turn down anything that isn't remaining, regardless of what it is and would rather force a no deal scenario that'll be entirely down to them and any discussion would be pointless. It doesn't matter whether the May/Eu deal is good or not, it would never be good enough. No point their reading it, or us discussing it.


It's very odd to have a go at those who don't want to leave because the deal on the table involves leaving. Surely it's those who do want to leave who should be berated for not giving the deal due consideration.


----------



## mewtoo

I keep hearing the word "negotiations" in the news.

There have been no negotiations.

Theresa May is a remainer, and as our Prime Minister is the EU's top agent in the UK. These phony negotiations have been run from Number 10 and not from the Brexit Secretary. This is why they keep resigning.
Consequently, when the EU negotiates with the British Government, it is negotiating with itself.
There have been no negotiations. The process so far has been to string things out for as long as possible with the intention that everyone gets sick of the whole thing, throws up their hands and shouts either, "OMG LET'S JUST STAY IN THE EU THEN", or, "OH FFS, WE'LL JUST ACCEPT ANY OLD DEAL".

The man put in charge of dealing with the EU is called Olly Robbins. When at Oxford, he was president of a group called The Oxford Reform Club, which advocated for a federal EU superstate (which is exactly what the EU was intended to become all along). What an obvious choice for the job! 
Oh and also, he's also a communist.

It'd be like putting Oswald Mosely in charge of negotiating with Nazi Germany, or putting a fox in charge of hen security.

The government never had any intention of delivering Brexit, but then why would they? What incentive do they have not to betray us?
If successful, they get their grace and favour jobs in the EU. If unsuccessful, they get their phony directorships and payments in other forms, to reward them for their efforts.
In the UK, treachery is a win-win for any and all government officials willing to engage in it.

Although democracy has enormous shortcomings, it does have one big saving grace, and that is of responsibility: the people are responsible for the government they elect.
Whether through stupidity or evil, if we elect people who we know or ought to know will betray us, then it's our own fault.
We had a moment of clarity in seizing the chance to extricate ourselves from rule by a foreign dictatorship, but we reverted to type in entrusting the process to a group of people who had displayed, over and over again, that deceiving and harming us was their primary business.

In any case though - what a time to be alive. It's the 1930s all over again.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> I honestly can't see Corbyn getting in.


There are two advantages to a Corbyn victory:

1. He will take us out of the EU, because within the EU he will not be able to nationalise everything, which he wants to do.
2. The country will collapse sooner, so we will lose less people and will be able to rebuild sooner.

It's like if you have a 25% chance of dying from a disease you have contracted, but cutting off your legs will reduce that chance to 20%.
A Labour government is the cutting-your-legs-off option.

Other than that, voting for communists would be rather foolish, but then the British population is full of people who are open to bribery with their own money. And other people's of course!
My nephew voted Labour because Jezza promised him that his university fees would be paid for. He felt doubly silly when it transpired that this promise was a lie.

Anyway.


----------



## Happy Paws2

mewtoo said:


> I
> 
> Although democracy has enormous shortcomings, it does have one big saving grace, and that is of responsibility: *the people are responsible for the government they elect.*
> Whether through stupidity or evil, if we elect people who we know or ought to know will betray us, then it's our own fault.
> We had a moment of clarity in seizing the chance to extricate ourselves from rule by a foreign dictatorship, but we reverted to type in entrusting the process to a group of people who had displayed, over and over again, that deceiving and harming us was their primary business.
> 
> In any case though - what a time to be alive. It's the 1930s all over again.


That's why I'm *proud* to say, I've never voted for this government or leave the EU, what ever mess we are in now or in the next few years, it's not my fault, I just hope those who did, are happy with the out come.


----------



## stockwellcat.

All Government Whips have been summoned back to London and to cancel all business for today. It looks likely a No Confidence Vote may take place. Nothing from the 1922 committee yet.

If this happens a vote will take place in the Tory party on Monday. The PM needs 155 Tory MP's to vote for her to remain in power and this will stop any leadership challenge. If she doesn't get 155 votes on Monday then it is a leadership challenge.

As I said before it is all down to numbers and mathematics.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws said:


> That's why I'm *proud* to say, I've never voted for this government or leave the EU, what ever mess we are in now or in the next few years, it's not my fault, I just hope those who did, are happy with the out come.


*You forget, we are all in this together. *


----------



## mewtoo

Happy Paws said:


> That's why I'm *proud* to say, I've never voted for this government or leave the EU


I've never, ever, voted LibLabCon precisely because I understand what they are.

I voted to leave the EU precisely because I understand what the EU is.

Don't be deceived into believing that the current Brexit mess is down to the vote to leave the EU itself, because it isn't.
The current mess is because a load of people who voted to remain, AND who are part of the government, have sabotaged the process.

Whodathunk that a load of people, who want to remain in the EU and have the power to scupper any efforts to leave the EU, would scupper those very efforts! It's just not possible to imagine such things! Are we supposed to be geniuses or something, to predict that a remainer government would deliberately mess things up? We're not Einsteins, you know!

Imagine it like this: 
A group of chickens vote to erect a wire fence to keep out the foxes.
A chicken is put in charge of erecting the fence, but this chicken is in cahoots with the foxes. The foxes promised to put this chicken's chicks through private school or something, haha.
After 2.5 years of still losing their fellows to foxes, the chickens begin to complain about the whole fence-erecting process.
"Maybe we should never have voted to erect a fence at all - what a mess the result has been!", exclaims one of the the chickens.
"It wasn't the vote for the fence which was the problem - it was the choice of chicken we put in charge of erecting it!", replies another chicken.
Will the chickens:
a) Put a non-traitor chicken in charge of erecting the fence, or
b) Moan a lot but otherwise do nothing about it?
We shall see.

If we'd had a Brexit-supporting government in charge since the vote, we'd have been out of the EU two years ago and would be enjoying ourselves a whole lot more.


----------



## noushka05

mewtoo said:


> I've never, ever, voted LibLabCon precisely because I understand what they are.
> 
> I voted to leave the EU precisely because I understand what the EU is.
> 
> Don't be deceived into believing that the current Brexit mess is down to the vote to leave the EU itself, because it isn't.
> The current mess is because a load of people who voted to remain, AND who are part of the government, have sabotaged the process.
> 
> Whodathunk that a load of people, who want to remain in the EU and have the power to scupper any efforts to leave the EU, would scupper those very efforts! It's just not possible to imagine such things! Are we supposed to be geniuses or something, to predict that a remainer government would deliberately mess things up? We're not Einsteins, you know!
> 
> Imagine it like this:
> A group of chickens vote to erect a wire fence to keep out the foxes.
> A chicken is put in charge of erecting the fence, but this chicken is in cahoots with the foxes. The foxes promised to put this chicken's chicks through private school or something, haha.
> After 2.5 years of still losing their fellows to foxes, the chickens begin to complain about the whole fence-erecting process.
> "Maybe we should never have voted to erect a fence at all - what a mess the result has been!", exclaims one of the the chickens.
> "It wasn't the vote for the fence which was the problem - it was the choice of chicken we put in charge of erecting it!", replies another chicken.
> Will the chickens:
> a) Put a non-traitor chicken in charge of erecting the fence, or
> b) Moan a lot but otherwise do nothing about it?
> We shall see.
> 
> If we'd had a Brexit-supporting government in charge since the vote, we'd have been out of the EU two years ago and would be enjoying ourselves a whole lot more.


Yeah blame remainers who warned it was going to end in disaster:Hilarious So predictable I didnt even need my crystal ball to see this coming.

Who have you voted for, UKIP? or the Greens maybe?

The brextremists never had a plan to get us out - they just told lie upon lie. So who did you think could have got us out of the EU without trashing the UK? Or wouldnt you care about the consequences as long we got out?


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> I keep hearing the word "negotiations" in the news.
> 
> There have been no negotiations.
> 
> Theresa May is a remainer, and as our Prime Minister is the EU's top agent in the UK. These phony negotiations have been run from Number 10 and not from the Brexit Secretary. This is why they keep resigning.
> Consequently, when the EU negotiates with the British Government, it is negotiating with itself.
> There have been no negotiations. The process so far has been to string things out for as long as possible with the intention that everyone gets sick of the whole thing, throws up their hands and shouts either, "OMG LET'S JUST STAY IN THE EU THEN", or, "OH FFS, WE'LL JUST ACCEPT ANY OLD DEAL".
> 
> The man put in charge of dealing with the EU is called Olly Robbins. When at Oxford, he was president of a group called The Oxford Reform Club, which advocated for a federal EU superstate (which is exactly what the EU was intended to become all along). What an obvious choice for the job!
> Oh and also, he's also a communist.
> 
> It'd be like putting Oswald Mosely in charge of negotiating with Nazi Germany, or putting a fox in charge of hen security.
> 
> The government never had any intention of delivering Brexit, but then why would they? What incentive do they have not to betray us?
> If successful, they get their grace and favour jobs in the EU. If unsuccessful, they get their phony directorships and payments in other forms, to reward them for their efforts.
> In the UK, treachery is a win-win for any and all government officials willing to engage in it.
> 
> Although democracy has enormous shortcomings, it does have one big saving grace, and that is of responsibility: the people are responsible for the government they elect.
> Whether through stupidity or evil, if we elect people who we know or ought to know will betray us, then it's our own fault.
> We had a moment of clarity in seizing the chance to extricate ourselves from rule by a foreign dictatorship, but we reverted to type in entrusting the process to a group of people who had displayed, over and over again, that deceiving and harming us was their primary business.
> 
> In any case though - what a time to be alive. It's the 1930s all over again.


Well this all sounds jolly scary with an evil EU and a treacherous government and everything.

What grace and favour jobs will the government be getting in the EU, do you think?


----------



## mewtoo

noushka05 said:


> Yeah blame remainers who warned it was going to end in disaster:Hilarious So predictable I didnt even need my crystal ball to see this coming.


You didn't read my post.
I didn't blame remainers.
I blamed remainers in the government.
Here were my precise words: "a load of people who voted to remain, AND who are part of the government".



noushka05 said:


> Who have you voted for, UKIP? or the Greens maybe?


UKIP were not an option to vote for at the last election. Greens weren't, neither.
I spoiled my ballot.
I wouldn't have been able to vote Green in any case, Brexit or no Brexit, precisely because I understand what the Greens stand for.



noushka05 said:


> The brextremists


Wanting to live sovereign in your own land is not extreme.
It's actually the wanting to cede sovereignty to a foreign government which is the extreme position.



noushka05 said:


> never had a plan to get us out


Oh, yes they did.
Leaving the EU is exceptionally simple.
It does not even require a negotiation.



noushka05 said:


> - they just told lie upon lie.


That's odd, because I don't seem to remember a single lie being told, let alone lie upon lie.



noushka05 said:


> So who did you think could have got us out of the EU without trashing the UK?


Any government which wanted to leave the EU of course.



noushka05 said:


> Or wouldnt you care about the consequences as long we got out?


What consequences?
The consequences of not having our laws and regulations dictated to us?
The consequences of not having to pay more for food to protect the French or clothes to protect the Italians?
The consequences of the EU not being able to subsidise, with our money, companies to relocate to other EU countries?
The consequences of not having to join an EU army to die for Juncker?
The consequences of more competitive companies?
The consequences of greater export markets?
The consequences of lower immigration?
The consequences of better environmental protection?
The consequences of lower taxes?
The consequences of saying to our children that we've protected their birthright to live free and sovereign in their own land?

People voted to leave precisely because they understood that the consequences of leaving the EU were favourable to the consequences of staying in the EU.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Well this all sounds jolly scary with an evil EU and a treacherous government and everything.


The year is 1933 in Germany.
One Jew says to another Jew (and this is not a joke btw, haha), "this government is evil and is conspiring to harm us".
The other Jew replies, "Well this all sounds jolly scary with an evil Reich and a treacherous government and everything."
One of the families of those Jews lived and the other one died.



Arnie83 said:


> What grace and favour jobs will the government be getting in the EU, do you think?


Well if I was one of them, I would definitely be hoping for something along the lines Kinnock's job.
Or maybe even EU President. Blair wanted that, but Gordon Brown blocked it, haha.


----------



## noushka05

mewtoo said:


> You didn't read my post.
> I didn't blame remainers.
> I blamed remainers in the government.
> Here were my precise words: "a load of people who voted to remain, AND who are part of the government".
> 
> UKIP were not an option to vote for at the last election. Greens weren't, neither.
> I spoiled my ballot.
> I wouldn't have been able to vote Green in any case, Brexit or no Brexit, precisely because I understand what the Greens stand for.
> 
> U.


Sorry I misunderstood your meaning.

I'm going out soon so dont have time to respond to all your points, but my curiosity is killing me so I have to ask this before I go - what, exactly, do the Greens stand for?

.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> It's very odd to have a go at those who don't want to leave because the deal on the table involves leaving. Surely it's those who do want to leave who should be berated for not giving the deal due consideration.


 Why? They want a different deal hence it's worth discussing the current one to see what they want. The ones who are determined to leave with no deal and think that's best would be the ones not worth discussing it with, but I haven't seen any on petforums.

Remain voters who won't consider anything but remaining are people it's impossible to discuss with. Their answer to every question will be ' I don't care, just stay in, it's better'. I have seen a couple of those on petforums.

@KittenKong again, I'm not a Brexiter, so I cant answer your question. It would be easier to stay in, the government would prefer to stay in, the current deal is a lot like staying in and means we could stay in, the Eu would like us to stay in, European countries would like us to stay in. We pay many of the bills. Countries who pay nothing in, need our money and get a say. It's in their interest for us to stay in.

I don't really mind either way, if there's going to be a deal I'm interested enough to look at it and try to work out what is meant by it and underlying it.

Of course Remainers in the government are trying to maintain the status quo. How can leavers be accused of manipulation, but Remainers not?

Again @KittenKong You can find anything on the Internet if you look for it. I wouldn't go looking for extremist views or sensationalist press on the Internet. As millions voted remain I'm sure some unsavoury characters voted remain too. I wouldn't tar ordinary remain voters with the same brush. Those particular leave voters with extremist and cruel views deserve our contempt, whichever way we voted, but you keep going on about them as though they represent every leave voter.


----------



## mewtoo

noushka05 said:


> what, exactly, do the Greens stand for?


What do you think they stand for?
Why did loads of Green Party members desert the Green Party for the Labour Party when communists got into leadership positions of the Labour Party?

The Green Party is for environmental protections just as much as the Labour Party is for the working class and the Conservative Party is for traditional family values.
Or in other words, not really, but that's what they'd have us believe.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Austrian PM has just reiterated what was said last night. The withdrawal agreement is what is on the table it will not be re-negotiated. If refused by Uk parliament it is no deal.


----------



## noushka05

mewtoo said:


> What do you think they stand for?
> Why did loads of Green Party members desert the Green Party for the Labour Party when communists got into leadership positions of the Labour Party?
> 
> The Green Party is for environmental protections just as much as the Labour Party is for the working class and the Conservative Party is for traditional family values.
> Or in other words, not really, but that's what they'd have us believe.


I know what they stand for - Im a member.

You've lost me. Are you saying they're communists? lol


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> The Austrian PM has just reiterrated what was said last night. The withdrawal agreement is what is on the table it will not be re-negotiated. If refused by Uk parliament it is no deal.


It would have been somewhat more decent if there had been no deal two years ago, especially since there doesn't have to be a deal to leave the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

mewtoo said:


> It would have been somewhat more decent if there had been no deal two years ago, especially since there doesn't have to be a deal to leave the EU.


I agree.


----------



## Elles

mewtoo said:


> It would have been somewhat more decent if there had been no deal two years ago, especially since there doesn't have to be a deal to leave the EU.


Give them their dues, they have to try given the opportunity to do so. I would. A lot of things can change in two years, no point burning your bridges on day one.


----------



## mewtoo

noushka05 said:


> You've lost me. Are you saying they're communists? lol


Yes.
Parties do not advertise what they really are, unless what they really are is decent.

The Labour Party does not advertise that it is communist.
The Conservative Party does not advertise that it is a globalist, police-state-building party.
The Green Party does not advertise that it is communism-lite.

If a person wants to vote for environmental protections, then they must find a party which not only cares for the environment, but which will not enact policies which would lead to environmental destruction.

It's of no doubt that the Green Party *thinks* that it cares for the environment, but the Green Party is no more a green party than the Conservative Party is a conservative party.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU folks are not interested in the state of the UK's internal politics and which leader finishes the negotiations. They are only interested in if the UK Parliament accept or refuse the deal on the table as this will determine if the UK has a deal or is crashing out with no deal. If the deal is voted against it is not down to the UK Parliament to make the next move and they don't get a vote on no deal either it is down to the 27 EU Leaders.


----------



## mewtoo

Elles said:


> Give them their dues, they have to try given the opportunity to do so. I would. A lot of things can change in two years, no point burning your bridges on day one.


Well, the thing is that there doesn't have to be a deal. Negotiations are not required.

All the British government had to do was to say the following:
-we want to trade freely with you, so we will give you tariff-free access to our markets
-we want to cooperate with you
-we want to be friends with you

Then, the ball would be in the EU's court.
**It springs to mind that the person who said that the UK Government should offer those things was Nigel Farage, but he was not allowed to be part of the process of leaving even though he was the best candidate. Why wasn't he allowed? Well, if you were Theresa May then you wouldn't want someone competent like him anywhere near it - you'd put a pro-EU communist in charge of it all, which is exactly what she did. We've all been stitched up.**

There would be some technical stuff to sort out, but that can be done on the fly.
When it comes to business, for example, you'd be surprised at how quickly things can be done.

Remember that it isn't governments which trade with each other; it is companies and individuals.


----------



## Elles

mewtoo said:


> Well, the thing is that there doesn't have to be a deal. Negotiations are not required.
> 
> All the British government had to do was to say the following:
> -we want to trade freely with you, so we will give you tariff-free access to our markets
> -we want to cooperate with you
> -we want to be friends with you
> 
> Then, the ball would be in the EU's court.
> **It springs to mind that the person who said that the UK Government should offer those things was Nigel Farage, but he was not allowed to be part of the process of leaving even though he was the best candidate. Why wasn't he allowed? Well, if you were Theresa May then you wouldn't want someone competent like him anywhere near it - you'd put a pro-EU communist in charge of it all, which is exactly what she did. We've all been stitched up.**
> 
> There would be some technical stuff to sort out, but that can be done on the fly.
> When it comes to business, for example, you'd be surprised at how quickly things can be done.
> 
> Remember that it isn't governments which trade with each other; it is companies and individuals.


They wanted to stay in. Messing about for 2 years was in their best interests, not leaving the day after the vote.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> The year is 1933 in Germany.
> One Jew says to another Jew (and this is not a joke btw, haha), "this government is evil and is conspiring to harm us".
> The other Jew replies, "Well this all sounds jolly scary with an evil Reich and a treacherous government and everything."
> One of the families of those Jews lived and the other one died.


Like I said, it all sounds jolly scary.



mewtoo said:


> Well if I was one of them, I would definitely be hoping for something along the lines Kinnock's job.
> Or maybe even EU President. Blair wanted that, but Gordon Brown blocked it, haha.


So Kinnock got a job as EU Commissioner. That's one. I believe Mandelson also got a job as our EU Commissioner.

But you said "the government" would get grace and favour jobs as a reward for betraying us. I wonder what all these jobs are, aside from the 1 EU Commissioner nominated by the Prime Minister. And is it just our government that get all these jobs? Or are there enough to go round for the governments of the other 27 member states who presumably are also betraying their electorates?

Actually, don't bother. I don't think I'll be taking any further part in this particular discussion. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's rather too hyperbolic to take seriously.


----------



## havoc

It has taken quite a surreal turn


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU folks are not interested in the state of the UK's internal politics and which leader finishes the negotiations. They are only interested in if the UK Parliament accept or refuse the deal on the table as this will determine if the UK has a deal or is crashing out with no deal. If the deal is voted against it is not down to the UK Parliament to make the next move and they don't get a vote on no deal either it is down to the 27 EU Leaders.


The EU is more interested in the UK's money. We have been a cash cow for the EU for decades, at great detriment to ourselves.

Other things which they are interested in the UK for:
-ideological reasons: they want all of Europe* subsumed into the super-state
-our nukes and armed forces: the EU wants an army
-strategic reasons: the UK, as proven in history, makes a great bridgehead
-our resources: they want our shale gas and fish

Theresa May has done an excellent job of giving them as much of what they want.

If anyone is interested, here are some historical examples of British politicians serving foreign governments:

1. After WW1, Labour Party politicians stopped the UK from rearming properly because they believed that our guns might be turned against their bosses in the Soviet Union. consequently, we were unprepared for WW2.
2. During WW2, Labour Politicians (again) wanted the Normandy landings to happens sooner, before were ready, to relieve pressure on the forces of their bosses in the Soviet Union. Had this front opened sooner, our losses would have been far higher.
3. Iraq War!
4. Etc.

*Not just Europe though. There is a side project called the Mediterranean Union, with the aim of incorporating North Africa into the EU. The eventual idea is to include all of Africa into the EU which, I assume, will change its name when this happens, haha.


----------



## stockwellcat.

mewtoo said:


> The EU is more interested in the UK's money. We have been a cash cow for the EU for decades, at great detriment to ourselves.
> 
> Other things which they are interested in the UK for:
> -ideological reasons: they want all of Europe* subsumed into the super-state
> -our nukes and armed forces: the EU wants an army
> -strategic reasons: the UK, as proven in history, makes a great bridgehead
> -our resources: they want our shale gas and fish
> 
> Theresa May has done an excellent job of giving them as much of what they want.
> 
> If anyone is interested, here are some historical examples of British politicians serving foreign governments:
> 
> 1. After WW1, Labour Party politicians stopped the UK from rearming properly because they believed that our guns might be turned against their bosses in the Soviet Union. consequently, we were unprepared for WW2.
> 2. During WW2, Labour Politicians (again) wanted the Normandy landings to happens sooner, before were ready, to relieve pressure on the forces of their bosses in the Soviet Union. Had this front opened sooner, our losses would have been far higher.
> 3. Iraq War!
> 4. Etc.
> 
> *Not just Europe though. There is a side project called the Mediterranean Union, with the aim of incorporating North Africa into the EU. The eventual idea is to include all of Africa into the EU which, I assume, will change its name when this happens, haha.


Oh you don't have to tell me I am a leave voter that has been saying no deal would be the best option for over 2 years. It should have been done 2 years ago to limit damage but hey a remainer MP/PM attempted to strike a deal that was never going to happen and wasted money, time, damaged the economy etc. If the UK left 2 years ago this mess now would not have happened and I am pretty sure of that.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> But you said "the government" would get grace and favour jobs as a reward for betraying us. I wonder what all these jobs are, aside from the 1 EU Commissioner nominated by the Prime Minister. And is it just our government that get all these jobs? Or are there enough to go round for the governments of the other 27 member states who presumably are also betraying their electorates?


The EU is open to anyone who has proven their pro-EU credentials in the governments of host countries.

If you were a bureaucrat in the UK, and had based your future on being paid free money by the taxpayer, would you or would you not realise that the EU represented a brilliant opportunity to continue to be paid more free taxpayer money into the future?

Neil Kinnock is just one example of a person who not only understood this opportunity, but who has exploited it superbly.



Arnie83 said:


> Actually, don't bother. I don't think I'll be taking any further part in this particular discussion. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's rather too hyperbolic to take seriously.


Awwww


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> a remainer MP/PM attempted to strike a deal


No, but that's what she wanted us to believe.
Theresa May has spent two years deliberately delaying things, with the purpose of either keeping us in the EU if possible, or wearing us down so that we will accept any old crappy deal.

There have been no negotiations.
There has been no intention of any deal.
She knows that there does not have to be a deal, and when she said "leave means leave", she was lying to us. Shock! Horror! A globalist authoritarian telling porkies? However could we have known that this would happen? Haha.

She has done what her bosses in the EU have told her to do.

Her 500+ page document presented to the cabinet the other day was not written in the UK, nor even by a British person. It was written by an EU lawyer and then translated into English.

We've been well and truly stitched up.
You have to laugh though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

mewtoo said:


> I've never, ever, voted LibLabCon precisely because I understand what they are.
> 
> I voted to leave the EU precisely because I understand what the EU is.
> 
> Don't be deceived into believing that the current Brexit mess is down to the vote to leave the EU itself, because it isn't.
> The current mess is because a load of people who voted to remain, AND who are part of the government, have sabotaged the process.
> 
> Whodathunk that a load of people, who want to remain in the EU and have the power to scupper any efforts to leave the EU, would scupper those very efforts! It's just not possible to imagine such things! Are we supposed to be geniuses or something, to predict that a remainer government would deliberately mess things up? We're not Einsteins, you know!
> 
> Imagine it like this:
> A group of chickens vote to erect a wire fence to keep out the foxes.
> A chicken is put in charge of erecting the fence, but this chicken is in cahoots with the foxes. The foxes promised to put this chicken's chicks through private school or something, haha.
> After 2.5 years of still losing their fellows to foxes, the chickens begin to complain about the whole fence-erecting process.
> "Maybe we should never have voted to erect a fence at all - what a mess the result has been!", exclaims one of the the chickens.
> "It wasn't the vote for the fence which was the problem - it was the choice of chicken we put in charge of erecting it!", replies another chicken.
> Will the chickens:
> a) Put a non-traitor chicken in charge of erecting the fence, or
> b) Moan a lot but otherwise do nothing about it?
> We shall see.
> 
> If we'd had a Brexit-supporting government in charge since the vote, we'd have been out of the EU two years ago and would be enjoying ourselves a whole lot more.


Thank You _"mewtoo_" I needed a good laugh today


----------



## mewtoo

Happy Paws said:


> Thank You _"mewtoo_" I needed a good laugh today


Haha.
I hope that my chicken fables become legendary one day.


----------



## KittenKong

Certainly a step in the right direction.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Certainly a step in the right direction.
> 
> View attachment 376064


According to EU leaders this will not be acceptable. They have said the deal is on the table and if it is rejected by UK MP's it will be no deal.


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> Certainly a step in the right direction.


Is he going to invent a time machine and then go back to 2016 and have a vote which we had anyway?

These commies just get zanier and zanier.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Certainly a step in the right direction.
> 
> View attachment 376064


So someone's reminded him what official Labour party policy is, no matter how much he dislikes it!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> According to EU leaders this will not be acceptable. They have said the deal is on the table and if it is rejected by UK MP's it will be no deal.


Really? Obviously if a PV avoided the option to remain in the EU you'd be right. The government could retract Article 50 at anytime if they wished to do so. Several sources have mentioned that.

The strong and stable one was on LBC this morning insisting she's taking back control and ending our FOM rights. She added she's also going to leave the SM and CU and again insists she's delivering the Brexit vote the Brexiters voted for.

Little evidence of that from what some Brexiters were saying yesterday and what resulted in many resignations!

Do you think she's lieing or telling the truth either yesterday or today?

You'd think someone was operating her via remote control the crap she comes out with.

Oh yes, Gove is staying put, for now. He looked far from happy when interviewed and refused to say whether he backed May's plan or not.


----------



## mewtoo

It'll be hell for old Jezza, because on the one hand he will want to stick to his principles, but on the other hand he'll do anything if he thinks it will get the kids, and hence votes.

Commies, eh?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> So someone's reminded him what official Labour party policy is, no matter how much he dislikes it!


And so they damn well should!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Really? Obviously if a PV avoided the option to remain in the EU you'd be right. The government could retract Article 50 at anytime if they wished to do so. Several sources have mentioned that.
> 
> The strong and stable one was on LBC this morning insisting she's taking back control and ending our FOM rights. She added she's also going to leave the SM and CU and again insists she's delivering the Brexit vote the Brexiters voted for.
> 
> Little evidence of that from what some Brexiters were saying yesterday and what resulted in many resignations!
> 
> Do you think she's lieing or telling the truth either yesterday or today?
> 
> You'd think someone was operating her via remote control the crap she comes out with.
> 
> Oh yes, Gove is staying put, for now. He looked far from happy when interviewed and refused to say whether he backed May's plan or not.


I am right though.
Last night the German Chancellor, Austrian Chancellor, Guy Verhofstadt and others said the same. The deal on the table is none negotiable and if refused by the UK parliament it would mean no deal. So there you go. Cry. Winge. Protest. Whatever you want to do. It won't make any difference.

Merkel and the Austrian Chancellor have re-iterated this today.

The EU don't care which UK leader finishes off Brexit. They aren't interested in internal British Politics problems. They just want the deal accepted or refused so they know if a deal is going to be made or not.


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> I am right though.
> Over dinner last night the German Chancellor, Austrian Chancellor, Guy Verhofstadt and others said the same. The deal on the table is none negotiable and if refused would mean no deal. So there you go. Cry. Winge. Protest. Whatever you want to do. It won't make any difference.


Or maybe they are just saying that to scare us, to threaten us.

I just wish that long prison sentences were available as a deterrent to government bigwigs betraying us. It'd be sweet to see Treason having to slop out with the others.

Oh, and we'd also have to confiscate all their property to pay for the two years of EU payments we've made but didn't need to make.

And so on.

If we don't punish traitors then we'll just get more traitors.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Rebel MP's are being whipped into withdrawing their letters of no confidence. Of course they can refuse. If the PM wins by confidence votes in the Tory Party by winning 155 votes there cannot be another leadership challenge in 12 months. The confidence vote will happen when 48 letters have been confirmed by the 1922 committee. If Tory MP's vote to keep May that is it over if not a leadership challenge will take place. This vote is done in secret.


----------



## mewtoo

How is the leader of the Conservative Party elected (in modern times)?

Hmmmmmm, who is the traitor we can most count on to keep our globalist project going?
Hmmmmmm. We'll have to balance how much they are going to harm the Party with how much money we are going to be bribed. Hmmmmmm, choices, choices. I'll give Merkel and Juncker a ring. See who they want as leader.

"But Sir, should we not go for someone who will serve the voters?"

Don't be silly, young man! You've got a lot to learn! We're in the money and power business, not the serving the people business.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am right though.
> Last night the German Chancellor, Austrian Chancellor, Guy Verhofstadt and others said the same. The deal on the table is none negotiable and if refused by the UK parliament it would mean no deal. So there you go. Cry. Winge. Protest. Whatever you want to do. It won't make any difference.
> 
> Merkel and the Austrian Chancellor have re-iterated this today.
> 
> The EU don't care which UK leader finishes off Brexit. They aren't interested in internal British Politics problems. They just want the deal accepted or refused so they know if a deal is going to be made or not.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-media-response-italy-germany-a8636576.html


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-media-response-italy-germany-a8636576.html
> View attachment 376079


It's a pretty good charade, pretending that it's not all a planned thing.
I wonder how many people take it at face value.


----------



## mewtoo

Poor old Treason.

On the one hand, she wants to stay and complete her job so that she gets paid the maximum amount and does the most harm, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter if she gets the boot because she'll still be paid a fortune anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rs-media-response-italy-germany-a8636576.html
> View attachment 376079


Mr Tusk puts on a good performance as he was pretending to be upset when he done his speech. But that report you put up was 22 hours ago. Recent developments are less than that time as they happened last night after Mr Tusk made these comments as his comments were in the morning a whole 12 hours or so before the EU leaders decided to say what they said last night.


----------



## mewtoo

An EU official: Right then Theresa. We know that you're a globalist and are dedicated to EU goals and you've served us well, but we want to sweeten it for you, so we'll make sure that you're paid handsomely through a series of directorships and we'll throw a couple of contracts your husband's way as well. Don't let us down though, or we'll stop sitting on that thing we found out about your niece/ nephew/ brother/ sister, and if we want to make it look like your husband died during an auto-erotic sex game, we can. Got it?


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Mr Tusk puts on a good performance as he was pretending to be upset when he done his speech. But that report you put up was 22 hours ago. Recent developments are less than that time as they happened last night after Mr Tusk made these comments as his comments were in the morning a whole 12 hours or so before the EU leaders decided to say what they said last night.


Tusk: Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us. Please god just let them carrying on paying us.


----------



## JANICE199

mewtoo said:


> Is he going to invent a time machine and then go back to 2016 and have a vote which we had anyway?
> 
> These commies just get zanier and zanier.


*The original vote should be null and void. How can a true vote be based on lies and confusion? *


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *The original vote should be null and void. How can a true vote be based on lies and confusion? *


Not everyone listened to the lies and had already made their minds up so why should they have their votes nullified?


----------



## mewtoo

JANICE199 said:


> *The original vote should be null and void. How can a true vote be based on lies and confusion? *


And if the next one doesn't go your way, then we will need another one because of lies and confusion. And so on.

No one's told me yet what the lies were.

As far as I'm aware, the question was as follows:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Seems like a pretty straightforward question.


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Not everyone listened to the lies and had already made their minds up so why should they have their votes nullified?


I reckon all those lies told about punishment budgets, planes not flying, economy crashing, job losses, nuclear war, and so on, actually helped the Leave vote.


----------



## mewtoo

JANICE199 said:


> *The original vote should be null and void. How can a true vote be based on lies and confusion? *


You've just given me a thought.

In the Common Market vote in 1975, the Heath government knew that the real plan was a superstate but didn't let on to the electorate.
One of his civil servants is even on record as saying that it'll take 30 years for the public to realise what they've done and by then it'll be too late.

You don't happen to have a time machine handy do you so that I can go back and explain to everyone that the vote was null and void?

Another thought. Why did we need to vote to leave the EU when we never voted to join it?

Seems awfully one-sided, haha.

We're leaving the EU, and your kids are going to be sovereign and free in their own land even if you don't want them to be.


----------



## JANICE199

mewtoo said:


> And if the next one doesn't go your way, then we will need another one because of lies and confusion. And so on.
> 
> No one's told me yet what the lies were.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, the question was as follows:
> "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
> 
> Seems like a pretty straightforward question.


*But it wasn't straight forward. How can anyone vote on something they were NOT given the full facts on. Truth be told, this is why TM and her government can't sort out a deal. They didn't know what they wanted in the first place.*


----------



## Arnie83

I get the distinct feeling that this thread has started on the sort of familiar downward spiral that led to all the others being locked.

That would be a shame.


----------



## mewtoo

JANICE199 said:


> *But it wasn't straight forward. How can anyone vote on something they were NOT given the full facts on. Truth be told, this is why TM and her government can't sort out a deal. They didn't know what they wanted in the first place.*


Given the full facts? Given? This is the age of the internet, my friend.

It was quite clear. Leaving the EU meant leaving the EU. This means that we would not be part of the EU any more and therefore we would not pay them, we could control our own borders, and they would not make any more of our laws.

Simplest thing in the world to understand.

As for not sorting out a deal, THERE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DEAL. It's a charade. Don't be taken in by it. It's being played out like this to deceive you.

UK: I don't want to be in your gang any more.
EU: well, we have to have a deal or you can't leave.
That's not how it works.


----------



## KittenKong

mewtoo said:


> We're leaving the EU, and your kids are going to be sovereign and free in their own land even if you don't want them to be.


How do you come to that conclusion seeing FOM will be restricted to the British Isles with the possible inclusion of the ROI and not some 30 odd member states to include the EEA area?!

Ring fenced within a little island is not freedom in my view.

Just ask those who lived behind the Berlin Wall.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't think I have bought this thread down I have only been talking about what the EU leaders said last night and it is a real shame that some remainers refuse to accept what has been said by the EU leaders as they I think (The EU Leaders) are being blunt by saying the withdrawal agreement has been negotiated and therefore is not open for negotiation. If you think that is bringing the thread down then jeeze some don't like the truth. It's ok when some remainers talk in riddles and I have problems understanding what is meant by what is being said yet when it is done back from a leave voter the thread is being dragged down simply because some remainers don't like what they read. 

Said my piece.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Ring fenced within a little island is not freedom in my view.


Where's this imaginary fence? We will still have the freedom to go to Germany, France or any other country in the EU. We will still be able to go to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland without visas. The EU said that British Citizens would not need visas to visit other European countries for 90 days within a 180 day period even if there is no deal.



> Just ask those who lived behind the Berlin Wall.....


Have you asked anyone that lived behind the Berlin wall?
I lived in Germany when the wall was up as my dad was serving in the British army in Germany.


----------



## KittenKong

Some people.... 
Seen on Facebook.


----------



## KittenKong

Sport on.









https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-Xg-pPuL2M_cDVghurijwVtrYh7c4bnV6OGtSqJFhnk_o


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> How do you come to that conclusion seeing FOM will be restricted to the British Isles with the possible inclusion of the ROI and not some 30 odd member states to include the EEA area?!


Before we were taken into the EU in 1993, were we able to:
-travel outside of the UK? YES
-study outside of the UK? YES
-do business outside of the UK? YES

All the EU has done in this regard is to cut waiting times at airports. Do you want to stay in the EU so that you can get to duty free a bit quicker?

Do you think that the EU is going to ban us from going there?



KittenKong said:


> Ring fenced within a little island is not freedom in my view.


We're not going to be ring-fenced and never have been. Why are you even saying this, haha.



KittenKong said:


> Just ask those who lived behind the Berlin Wall.....


Eh? What?

Interestingly though, people were trying to get out of the commie part and into the non-commie part.
We've got 3 million EU people living in the UK and only one million UK people have gone to the EU. Must be something attractive about this little island.


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> Some people....
> Seen on Facebook.
> View attachment 376087
> View attachment 376088


Things which never happened of course, hoho.

What really happened is that one of them pointed out to the other that the EU and Europe are two entirely different things. One of them is a political entity and the other is a continent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Sport on.
> View attachment 376089
> 
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-Xg-pPuL2M_cDVghurijwVtrYh7c4bnV6OGtSqJFhnk_o


Firstly I do not like the way they are using LGBTQ+ people to promote hatred towards Theresa May.
Secondly just to make a point LGBTQ+ people could not marry or have civil partnerships in Northern Ireland before Theresa May became PM or Cameron. This is not Theresa May's doing. LGBTQ+ people can get married or have civil partnerships anywhere else in the UK.
I don't find this article you have posted amusing and is wrong saying the things it says.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Where's this imaginary fence? We will still have the freedom to go to Germany, France or any other country in the EU. We will still be able to go to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland without visas. The EU said that British Citizens would not need visas to visit other European countries for 90 days within a 180 day period even if there is no deal.
> 
> Have you asked anyone that lived behind the Berlin wall?
> I lived in Germany when the wall was up as my dad was serving in the British army in Germany.


http://xpatloop.com/channels/2018/1...ssador-to-uk-nationals-living-in-hungary.html


----------



## mewtoo

Magyarmum said:


> http://xpatloop.com/channels/2018/1...ssador-to-uk-nationals-living-in-hungary.html


Hungary has been openly courting immigrants from Western Europe. Germans, French and British people have been flowing into Hungary of late. They'll be staying, too.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Some people....
> Seen on Facebook.
> View attachment 376087
> View attachment 376088


Man, the things some people will make up.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Amber Rudd has rejoined Cabinet as DWP Minister as PM replaces those that resigned.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Lots of ministers and MP's are coming forward with confidence letters in support of May staying as PM to see off any leadership challenge.


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Amber Rudd has rejoined Cabinet as DWP Minister as PM replaces those that resigned.


She's a particularly nasty piece of work, that one.

Would an entity employ such a nasty piece of work if they were benign.
The answer is nooooooooooooo!


----------



## Calvine




----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> the EU and Europe are two entirely different things. One of them is a political entity and the other is a continent.


And a feeling of belonging to a political entity is silly?


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Lots of ministers and MP's are coming forward with confidence letters in support of May staying as PM to see off any leadership challenge.


The only thing keeping the Conservative Party alive is fear of what Corbyn would do to house prices.
If it wasn't for the commies in Labour, the Conservative Party would be toast.
Probably why so many Conservative Party members paid their £3 to get him elected, hahaha.


----------



## mewtoo

Calvine said:


>


That doesn't make sense, because Brexiteers haven't played a part in exiting the EU.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> And a feeling of belonging to a political entity is silly?


I have no idea why you are asking me that question, because all I did was to point out that the EU is a political entity and Europe is a continent.
Therefore, if a person is European then it means that they are from the European continent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I wonder if TM will offer JRM a job as Brexit Secretary as it seems Gove is staying as Environment Minister? JRM would have to withdraw his letter of no confidence first.


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> I wonder if TM will offer JRM a job as Brexit Secretary as it seems Gove is staying as Environment Minister?


The Brexit Secretary has not been an active role. They have not been taking part in [the real] dealings between the UK and EU. The entire show has been run from 10 Downing Street. Olly Robbins has been the one who has been in charge of the collusion.
If Rees-Mogg was offered the role, it would be because there was something funny going on. If he accepted it, then something majorly funny would be going on.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> I have no idea why you are asking me that question, because all I did was to point out that the EU is a political entity and Europe is a continent.
> Therefore, if a person is European then it means that they are from the European continent.


And if, like me, a person feels that he or she is a citizen of the European Union? Is that silly because it is a political entity?


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


>


Where did you find that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here we go.
Stephen Barclay is the new Brexit secretary.
Amber Rudd is new DWP Minister.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> And if, like me, a person feels that he or she is a citizen of the European Union? Is that silly because it is a political entity?


I think that probably means you have to be shot as a spy after Brexit


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Where did you find that?


Been all over FB the last few days, always makes me giggle


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour Whips on Twitter have commented on Amber Rudd returning to Cabinet:


> May reappoints Rudd. She had to resign only months ago for misleading Parliament & presiding over a policy of a hostile environment. Rudd was found to neither be on top of the detail within her own office nor dept, she has til 230pm on Mon to swot up for dept Qs in the HoCs . .


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Here we go.
> Stephen Barclay is the new Brexit secretary.
> Amber Rudd is new DWP Minister.


"Barclay was named by Conservative Home as one of a minority of loyal Conservative backbench MPs not to have voted against the government in any significant rebellions."

Stephen, do as you are told!


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> And if, like me, a person feels that he or she is a citizen of the European Union? Is that silly because it is a political entity?


If a person lives in an EU country and has a feeling and that feeling tells them that they are a citizen of the EU, then if it's possible to be a citizen of the EU then it's not silly, and if it's not possible to be a citizen of the EU then it is silly.

I like the ones who say that they are a citizen of the world.
The world isn't a country yet, sillies!


----------



## Elles

It’s rumoured that Gove was offered the brexit job, but sensible chap that he is, he turned it down.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It's rumoured that Gove was offered the brexit job, but sensible chap that he is, he turned it down.


Or his appetite is far greater...as we well know...


----------



## mewtoo

Elles said:


> Gove..... sensible chap


Eh? What?
:Hilarious

Gove's a careerist.
He showed promise a while ago until he overplayed his hand.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> It's rumoured that Gove was offered the brexit job, but sensible chap that he is, he turned it down.


Stephen Barclay is new Brexit Secretary


----------



## stockwellcat.

Stephen Hammond becomes a health minister to replace new Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay.

John Penrose becomes a minister at the Northern Ireland Office to replace the resigned Shailesh Vara.

And Kwasi Kwarteng becomes a Brexit minister to replace the resigned Suella Braverman.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Forgiveness for sacked Brexit rebel

Stephen Hammond's appointment to government comes after he was sacked as a vice-chairman of the Conservative Party last year for rebelling against the PM in a key Brexit vote.


----------



## havoc

Just checked in on how this thread is going and have made myself a tinfoil hat so the aliens can't send their thought waves into my brain. They've obviously got to some


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> And if, like me, a person feels that he or she is a citizen of the European Union? Is that silly because it is a political entity?


Well no ,but it would be silly if I said it . 
I can chose to be a member of any political entity , I can choose to become a member of the Con , lab or green party or Amnesty or whatever but I never chose to become a member of the EU. I never applied to join, I never voted for it . I was forced to become a Citizen of the EU against my will. But that's democracy, right ?


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Just checked in on how this thread is going and have made myself a tinfoil hat so the aliens can't send their thought waves into my brain. They've obviously got to some


Well , you know what they say , if the hat fits .....


----------



## mewtoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour Whips on Twitter have commented on Amber Rudd returning to Cabinet:


That text you quoted is a really good example of how badly we are lied to in this country: "May reappoints Rudd. She had to resign only months ago for misleading Parliament & presiding over a policy of a hostile environment. Rudd was found to neither be on top of the detail within her own office nor dept, she has til 230pm on Mon to swot up for dept Qs in the HoCs".
Much as I hate Rudd, she was the fall girl in that situation. For starters, the "hostile environment", which was nothing of the sort in reality, was a Labour invention, was presided over by May when she was Home Secretary, and in a sinister twist, was a little project run by civil servants without the knowledge of their minister in charge.
If you delve into that little fiasco, then you'll uncover some rather disturbing aspects of how this country is run. Long story short, we have our own swamp in this country's government. We've basically got a government within a government, except that the one which isn't apparent has even less accountability than the one we can see.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Well no ,but it would be silly if I said it .
> I can chose to be a member of any political entity , I can choose to become a member of the Con , lab or green party or Amnesty or whatever but I never chose to become a member of the EU. I never applied to join, I never voted for it . I was forced to become a Citizen of the EU against my will. But that's democracy, right ?


I was forced to become a member of the EU to. No vote took place for the UK to become a member of the EU. The UK voted to stay in the European Economic Community in 1975 via a referendum.


----------



## Elles

If I think about it I tend to think of Europeans as mainland and when people talk about holidays in Europe, places like England, Ireland, or Greece don’t tend to come to mind. I tend to think of France, Belgium, into Luxembourg, that kind of thing. A Europe that is just Europe with no sea crossings or borders. I don’t really feel sexy and exotic enough to be European and I only really speak one language, not English as a second language with a sexy accent. That’s what a European is to me. Someone like Macron, or maybe even a Michael Portillo, not a Jacob Rees-Mogg or a Boris Johnson.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> If a person lives in an EU country and has a feeling and that feeling tells them that they are a citizen of the EU, then if it's possible to be a citizen of the EU then it's not silly, and if it's not possible to be a citizen of the EU then it is silly.
> 
> I like the ones who say that they are a citizen of the world.
> The world isn't a country yet, sillies!


Hmm.

The point is, of course, that a country is just as much a political (and social) construct as the EU. Neither has a physical existence but are accepted products of human imagination. Some people put great store in the national construct of which they see themselves as a part, while ridiculing the notion that anyone can do exactly the same with a supranational construct.

Similarly the idea of 'sovereignty' is based on the level of construct which is defined by the people who see themselves as part of it. At the moment, humans tend towards a 'country' as being the preferred level, but it is nothing more than an accepted opinion, and changes over time.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I was forced to become a member of the EU to. No vote took place for the UK to become a member of the EU. The UK voted to stay in the European Economic Community in 1975 via a referendum.


 Exactly. I was there and and voted against it.


----------



## Magyarmum

mewtoo said:


> Hungary has been openly courting immigrants from Western Europe. Germans, French and British people have been flowing into Hungary of late. They'll be staying, too.


Where exactly did you find/see this piece of information. I'd appreciate reading the link if you will provide it for me.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Hmm.
> 
> The point is, of course, that a country is just as much a political (and social) construct as the EU. Neither has a physical existence but are accepted products of human imagination. Some people put great store in the national construct of which they see themselves as a part, while ridiculing the notion that anyone can do exactly the same with a supranational construct.
> 
> Similarly the idea of 'sovereignty' is based on the level of construct which is defined by the people who see themselves as part of it. At the moment, humans tend towards a 'country' as being the preferred level, but it is nothing more than an accepted opinion, and changes over time.


It's like I said before, as to whether it's silly or not.

Of course, when the UK leaves the EU, British people who do not have citizenship of any other EU country will lose their EU citizenship, whilst gaining their self-respect once again.
In that case, any British person in that category would be very silly indeed to "feel" as if they had EU citizenship.
They may as well "feel" as if they were a citizen of Bhutan or Mexico.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Well no ,but it would be silly if I said it .
> I can chose to be a member of any political entity , I can choose to become a member of the Con , lab or green party or Amnesty or whatever but I never chose to become a member of the EU. I never applied to join, I never voted for it . I was forced to become a Citizen of the EU against my will. But that's democracy, right ?


Fair enough, but you never chose to be English (assumption) or a citizen of the UK either. You were simply born in a region whose former rulers and armies determined its geographical extent, and its administrative limits became accepted over time. Those of us over 45 have lived through a change where the EU was created. Thousands of our ancestors did the same when England was created, and when the UK was created. That's really the only difference (except maybe the amount of bloodshed involved!)


----------



## mewtoo

Magyarmum said:


> Where exactly did you find/see this piece of information. I'd appreciate reading the link if you will provide it for me.


You'd be a lot better off doing your own research in this matter, if it's links you are after.
I remember the facts so that I don't have to remember the links.

Hungary has been courting Western Europeans who consider themselves to be refugees. The main influx has been Germans so far.
I know a chap who went over because he didn't feel safe in the UK any more, because of things which happened to his family. He has just completed a massive mansion of a house for £50,000.
Even some Americans have gone over there to live.
I hear that Hungary is rather lovely. Very safe.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> If I think about it I tend to think of Europeans as mainland and when people talk about holidays in Europe, places like England, Ireland, or Greece don't tend to come to mind. I tend to think of France, Belgium, into Luxembourg, that kind of thing. A Europe that is just Europe with no sea crossings or borders. I don't really feel sexy and exotic enough to be European and I only really speak one language, not English as a second language with a sexy accent. That's what a European is to me. Someone like Macron, or maybe even a Michael Portillo, not a Jacob Rees-Mogg or a Boris Johnson.


Am I an exotic European with a sexy accent? :Kiss

Or is @Magyarmum an exotic lady with sexy accent in Hungary?


----------



## cbcdesign

kimthecat said:


> Exactly. I was there and and voted against it.


So you are old enough then the future ramifications of Brexit, particularly a hard Brexit would affect your live for considerably less time that for younger members of our society. It cannot be right or fair that older people in my generation and yours who are in the latter stages of our lives should rob younger people of the rights and advantages we had as members of the EU.


----------



## havoc

mewtoo said:


> I remember the facts so that I don't have to remember the links.


It is generally considered good practice to give a source. It saves the forum descending into nothing more than an individual's fanciful rants.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Where exactly did you find/see this piece of information. I'd appreciate reading the link if you will provide it for me.


Ah, I can see you're new at this...


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> It's like I said before, as to whether it's silly or not.
> 
> Of course, when the UK leaves the EU, British people who do not have citizenship of any other EU country will lose their EU citizenship, whilst *gaining their self-respect once again.*
> In that case, any British person in that category would be very silly indeed to "feel" as if they had EU citizenship.
> They may as well "feel" as if they were a citizen of Bhutan or Mexico.


I hesitate to ask, but are you suggesting that EU citizens have no self-respect?

I have never _been_ Mexican nor Bhutanese. That is probably where your analogy breaks down.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough, but you never chose to be English (assumption) or a citizen of the UK either. You were simply born in a region whose former rulers and armies determined its geographical extent, and its administrative limits became accepted over time. Those of us over 45 have lived through a change where the EU was created. Thousands of our ancestors did the same when England was created, and when the UK was created. That's really the only difference (except maybe the amount of bloodshed involved!)


Why stop there. I never chose to be born either.


----------



## cbcdesign

I would suggest people that think a deal isnt necessary do some research They could start by visiting https://www.marinetraffic.com and look at the number of ship movements between the UK and EU on the map. It's a truly staggering number all carrying goods to and from this country to and from the EU. Perhaps then people will appreciate why frictionless trade is so much more important than it was in 1975 and why we need a deal.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> I hesitate to ask, but are you suggesting that EU citizens have no self-respect?


Well obviously, a person has more respect for himself if he is sovereign and free in his own land. Especially if he has worked to free himself.



Arnie83 said:


> I have never _been_ Mexican nor Bhutanese. That is probably where your analogy breaks down.


I had a broken arm once. I feel like I have a broken arm foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Oh hang on a minute. It'd be silly for me to feel like I have a broken arm forever because it's not broken any more, even if once it was.


----------



## mewtoo

cbcdesign said:


> I would suggest people that think a deal isnt necessary do some research They could start by visiting https://www.marinetraffic.com and look at the number of ship movements between the UK and EU on the map. It's a truly staggering number all carrying goods to and from this country to and from the EU. Perhaps then people will appreciate why frictionless trade is so much more important than it was in 1975 and why we need a deal.


We don't actually need a deal to leave the EU.
It's possible, and as it happens, desirable, to leave the EU before getting one.
Once the German car manufacturers think for one second that they will not be selling us their cars, a very sweet deal would be along within the week.

UK: pretty please Mr Juncker. We need a deal before we can leave.
EU: well if you can't leave without a deal, then we've got you over a barrel, haven't we?
UK: yes.


----------



## cbcdesign

mewtoo said:


> Well obviously, a person has more respect for himself if he is sovereign and free in his own land. Especially if he has worked to free himself.
> 
> I had a broken arm once. I feel like I have a broken arm foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
> Oh hang on a minute. It'd be silly for me to feel like I have a broken arm forever because it's not broken any more, even if once it was.


In what way was your freedom in any way curtailed by the UKs membership of the EU? Frankly if you lost self respect that was something only you can explain, it was not the fault of the EU or the UK membership of it. Most of the most fervent pro Brexit arguments seem to come from members of the public who had the least to do with the EU both professionally and personally in my experience and have the least to lose if a hard Brexit was imposed upon us..


----------



## kimthecat

cbcdesign said:


> So you are old enough then the future ramifications of Brexit, particularly a hard Brexit would affect your live for considerably less time that for younger members of our society. It cannot be right or fair that older people in my generation and yours who are in the latter stages of our lives should rob younger people of the rights and advantages we had as members of the EU.


So at what age would it be fair to vote against it ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

mewtoo said:


> Well obviously, a person has more respect for himself if he is sovereign and free in his own land. Especially if he has worked to free himself.
> 
> I had a broken arm once. I feel like I have a broken arm foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
> Oh hang on a minute. It'd be silly for me to feel like I have a broken arm forever because it's not broken any more, even if once it was.


It sounds as if you were under occupation?
Never knew Britain was invaded by EU or forced to join it.
EU is not a Soviet Union.

I lived all my young years behind the Iron Curtain under the Russian domination, Russian army left us in 1992 and we never asked them for " protection ".
EU was created by mutual consent and people I many countries fought hard battles putting their life and future on the line to be able to shed the Russian occupation and join EU.
It was the freedom to travel, work, study , it was finally being allowed to have a choice.
I stayed on British soil because my British OH could not move to my country. Had children to raise.

I was delighted to be a part of Europe, Iron Curtain deprived me of that.
Sadly now my freedom will be curtailed again, unless I get my old passport back. 
Ironic.


----------



## mewtoo

havoc said:


> It is generally considered good practice to give a source. It saves the forum descending into nothing more than an individual's fanciful rants.


It's not very practical though because people can't carry thousands of links around with them.

If people want to learn about something, then they can use Google. If they can't find info about it, then they can either assume that they have not done a good search, or that the person is lying.


----------



## cbcdesign

mewtoo said:


> We don't actually need a deal to leave the EU.
> It's possible, and as it happens, desirable, to leave the EU before getting one.
> Once the German car manufacturers think for one second that they will not be selling us their cars, a very sweet deal would be along within the week.
> 
> UK: pretty please Mr Juncker. We need a deal before we can leave.
> EU: well if you can't leave without a deal, then we've got you over a barrel, haven't we?
> UK: yes.


That " German cars " and other such arguments have been thoroughly debunked by all but the most rabid Brexiters. Even leading Brexiters like JRM says it could be 50 years before any so called advantage Brexit offers are seen in the UK. 50 years!


----------



## havoc

mewtoo said:


> It's not very practical though because people can't carry thousands of links around with them.


No but the person making the claim is best placed to find that link and know it's the one they were basing their claim on. I know, it's boring compared with just making wild claims but it isn't an unreasonable thing to ask.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Why stop there. I never chose to be born either.


Well I stopped there because the examples were very similar. Life is not defined by human imagination, whereas 'nationality' most certainly is. We didn't invent life, we did invent both Britain and the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> Well obviously, a person has more respect for himself if he is sovereign and free in his own land. Especially if he has worked to free himself.
> 
> I had a broken arm once. I feel like I have a broken arm foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
> Oh hang on a minute. It'd be silly for me to feel like I have a broken arm forever because it's not broken any more, even if once it was.


I disagree with your opinion in the first case (and am never completely won over by the argument "Well obviously..")

And the second is a false analogy. A bone is not a tribal affiliation.

I think we've come to the end of this topic as well.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I disagree with your opinion


Surely not. You do surprise me


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Well I stopped there because the examples were very similar. Life is not defined by human imagination, whereas 'nationality' most certainly is. We didn't invent life, we did invent both Britain and the EU.


So you think the EU will become one "country " one day ?


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Well , you know what they say , if the hat fits .....


See, that's the joy of tinfoil - it can be rapidly reshaped into whatever abstract form is currently desired at the drop of a - well - hat


----------



## Magyarmum

mewtoo said:


> You'd be a lot better off doing your own research in this matter, if it's links you are after.
> I remember the facts so that I don't have to remember the links.
> 
> Hungary has been courting Western Europeans who consider themselves to be refugees. The main influx has been Germans so far.
> I know a chap who went over because he didn't feel safe in the UK any more, because of things which happened to his family. He has just completed a massive mansion of a house for £50,000.
> Even some Americans have gone over there to live.
> I hear that Hungary is rather lovely. Very safe.


Don't make excuses. It's just hearsay which is what I suspected!

Don't shove the onus of doing the relevant research on to me.

You made the statement and it's up to you to substantiate it!

I live in Hungary and am quite well informed about what goes on here and although I know of a few Brits who are planning to retire over here I've not heard, and can find no evidence in the research I've done, that leads me to believe that what you're saying is fact

And yes Hungary is a lovely country!


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> See, that's the joy of tinfoil - it can be rapidly reshaped into whatever abstract form is currently desired at the drop of a - well - hat


Currently lining the walls with it - those alien thought waves can get through if you don't take precautions


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Don't make excuses. It's just hearsay which is what I suspected!
> 
> Don't shove the onus of doing the relevant research on to me.
> 
> You made the statement and it's up to you to substantiate it!
> 
> I live in Hungary and am quite well informed about what goes on here and although I know of a few Brits who are planning to retire over here I've not heard, and can find no evidence in the research I've done, that leads me to believe that what you're saying is fact
> 
> And yes Hungary is a lovely country!


Yep, you're _definitely _new at this!


----------



## kimthecat

Weeelll I'm off to watch Neighbours.


----------



## mewtoo

cheekyscrip said:


> It sounds as if you were under occupation?
> Never knew Britain was invaded by EU or forced to join it.


Oh really?
Do you remember how the EU began in 1993 and yet there was no vote to join it?
It's almost as if we were forced to join it, isn't it?
Well, it's exactly as if we were forced to join it, haha.



cheekyscrip said:


> EU is not a Soviet Union.


Only the Soviet Union was the Soviet Union, but the EU does like to emulate this entity: it is expansionist, anti-free speech, dictatorial in nature and, of course, was founded by among others, a bunch of commies.



cheekyscrip said:


> I lived all my young years behind the Iron Curtain under the Russian domination, Russian army left us in 1992 and we never asked them for " protection ".
> EU was created by mutual consent and people I many countries fought hard battles putting their life and future on the line to be able to shed the Russian occupation and join EU.
> It was the freedom to travel, work, study , it was finally being allowed to have a choice.
> I stayed on British soil because my British OH could not move to my country. Had children to raise.


You left one authoritarian dictatorship and joined another.
Your freedom to travel, work and study was curtailed because you lived in the Soviet Union, not because you didn't live in the EU. Freedom to do those things did not magically come about because of the EU. We who did not live in the Soviet Union have enjoyed those freedoms for a long time, and we will continue to enjoy them after we have left the EU.
The EU was not created by mutual consent. The UK never voted to join, and when other countries voted not to, they were made to vote again or the vote was ignored.

Why is it that the countries occupied by the Soviet Union for the longest are now the ones resisting the EU the most. Is it because dictatorship is fresh in their memories (except for yours, haha)?



cheekyscrip said:


> I was delighted to be a part of Europe, Iron Curtain deprived me of that.


You were a part of Europe when you were under Soviet occupation.
Europe is a geographical area. As long as you are in that area, you are in Europe. The EU is not Europe.



cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly now my freedom will be curtailed again, unless I get my old passport back.
> Ironic.


How?
Do you judge your level of freedom by how long you have to wait in a queue at an airport?
Do you believe that after Brexit, British people will not be able to travel on the European continent?


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Am I an exotic European with a sexy accent? :Kiss
> 
> Or is @Magyarmum an exotic lady with sexy accent in Hungary?


Oooooh I'd love to be an exotic lady!

Do you think if I changed my name to ZsaZsa and wore a feather boa and called the postman, the vet and the butcher "Daaaaarliiink" with a pseudo Hungarian accent they'd think I was evasa sexy?

On second thoughts, t's too b*****y cold here to wear a plunging neckline and sexy underwear, so perhaps I'd better postpone the idea till next summer!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Mr Tusk puts on a good performance as he was pretending to be upset when he done his speech. But that report you put up was 22 hours ago. Recent developments are less than that time as they happened last night after Mr Tusk made these comments as his comments were in the morning a whole 12 hours or so before the EU leaders decided to say what they said last night.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=903597103162246&id=748608695327755


----------



## mewtoo

Magyarmum said:


> Don't make excuses. It's just hearsay which is what I suspected!


Send me the link to prove that it's hearsay and that you suspected it.



Magyarmum said:


> Don't shove the onus of doing the relevant research on to me.


How dare I ask you to find things out for yourself.

By the way, you'll find Orban's invitation to what he calls "true refugees" on the Hungarian Government's very own website. It took me 20 seconds to find it.



Magyarmum said:


> You made the statement and it's up to you to substantiate it!/QUOTE]
> Not to people who don't consider their education their own responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> Magyarmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in Hungary and am quite well informed about what goes on here and although I know of a few Brits who are planning to retire over here I've not heard, and can find no evidence in the research I've done, that leads me to believe that what you're saying is fact
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands of German immigrants to Hungary have just disappeared from your country because you do not believe that they are there.
> That's how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Magyarmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yes Hungary is a lovely country!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And long may Orban keep it lovely.
Click to expand...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Oooooh I'd love to be an exotic lady!
> 
> Do you think if I changed my name to ZsaZsa and wore a feather boa and called the postman, the vet and the butcher "Daaaaarliiink" with a pseudo Hungarian accent they'd think I was evasa sexy?
> 
> On second thoughts, t's too b*****y cold here to wear a plunging neckline and sexy underwear, so perhaps I'd better postpone the idea till next summer!


Oh, but you are exotic Brit, no idea how is Dahlin in Hun.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Do you think if I changed my name to ZsaZsa and wore a feather boa


Darling ZsaZsa - famous for saying she never hated a man enough to give him back his diamonds. Exotic with her head screwed on that one


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 376106
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=903597103162246&id=748608695327755
> 
> View attachment 376108


*?*


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Weeelll I'm off to watch Neighbours.


I have got mine on....








Can I please enter the tin foil hat area?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I have got mine on....
> View attachment 376116
> 
> Can I please enter the tin foil hat area?


:Hilarious
I have mine on too so Lets go !


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hilights from the EU Withdrawal Agreement:

*1. Transition*

The transition period (which the UK government calls "implementation period") begins on 29 March 2019 and lasts until 31 December 2020.
The UK will need to abide by all EU rules, but will lose membership of its institutions.
The draft withdrawal agreement says the transition can be extended, but this can only happen once and for a limited period.
Both the UK and EU must agree to any extension and the decision must be taken before 1 July 2020.
*2. Money*

The draft agreement sets out the calculations for the financial settlement (or "divorce bill") that the UK will need to pay to the EU to settle all of its obligations.
While no figure appears in the document, it is expected to be at least £39bn and it will be paid over a number of years.
Part of that money will be the financial contribution that the UK has to make during the transition period. This year the UK's contribution to the EU budget is forecast to be a net £10.8bn.
If the transition is extended, there will have to be additional UK payments to the EU budget, which will be agreed separately.
*3. Citizens' rights*

This is broadly unchanged from the initial draft of the withdrawal agreement which came out in March.
*UK citizens in the EU, and EU citizens in the UK, will retain their residency and social security rights after Brexit.*
*Citizens who take up residency in another EU country during the transition period (including the UK of course) will be allowed to stay in that country after the transition.*
*Anyone that stays in the same EU country for five years will be allowed to apply for permanent residence. (*Psst I will let you into a secret. This is the same procedure as it is today*).*
*4. Northern Ireland/the backstop*

If no long-term trade deal has been agreed by the end of 2020 that avoids a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and if there is no extension to the transition period, then a backstop consisting of "a single customs territory between the (European) Union and the United Kingdom" will be triggered.
Northern Ireland will be in a deeper customs relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK; it will also be more closely aligned with the rules and regulations of the EU single market.
As long as the backstop is in operation, the UK will be subject to "level playing field conditions", to ensure it cannot gain a competitive advantage while remaining in the same customs territory.
The UK cannot leave the backstop independently, it needs to be decided together with the EU.
*5. Fishing*

The agreement says that a separate agreement will need to be reached on access to EU fishing in UK waters.
The document says: "The Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours to conclude and ratify 'an agreement' on access to waters and fishing opportunities."
*6. Laws and disputes*

The UK will remain under European Court of Justice (ECJ) jurisdiction during the transition.
If the backstop is triggered and the UK forms a single customs territory with the EU, the ECJ will not be able to resolve disputes between the UK and EU.
Instead, there will be a dispute resolution procedure which provides for arbitration. However, if the dispute rests on the interpretation of EU law, the arbitration panel refers the case to the ECJ for a binding decision.
*7. What else is in it?*

Elsewhere in the agreement there are protocols on Gibraltar and the British military bases in Cyprus.
There's a provision that the UK will withdraw from the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom), which relates to how nuclear material is handled.
EU-approved geographic indications, protecting approved names like "Welsh Lamb" or "Parma Ham" remain.
So please tell me what the problem is @KittenKong? I draw your attention to point 3 above.

Have a read of the 585 pages EU Withdrawal Agreement yourself here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...d-future-relationship-with-the-european-union

Enjoy!


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> So you think the EU will become one "country " one day ?


( Woohoo, a sensible post to respond to! [Not that yours aren't usually that! ])

I don't actually. I think the EU will probably collapse into a smaller collection of individual states, and will then grow over time into something larger and more federal, more like the USA. How long that all takes I don't know, though I will be long dead.

I just think - sounding like a cracked record - that countries have not worked well for human peace and well-being and that we must move past them and onto the next stage, one that will be another stepping stone towards a single human world. We have to move beyond the tribal distinctions represented by countries to one tribe containing all human beings. We have to recognise our primitive instincts for what they are and leave them behind.

I honestly think it is the only way to safeguard the species and the planet. I'm not talking about a Marxist utopia, but a world where we are aware of the damage caused by constant competition, both tribal and economic and, with central governance. can actually do something about it.

Fantasy? Impossible? Maybe. But for me that's no reason to give up hope.


----------



## Arnie83

havoc said:


> Darling ZsaZsa - famous for saying she never hated a man enough to give him back his diamonds. Exotic with her head screwed on that one


"I am a marvelous housekeeper. Every time I leave a man I keep his house."


----------



## cbcdesign

Arnie83 said:


> ( Woohoo, a sensible post to respond to! [Not that yours aren't usually that! ])
> 
> I don't actually. I think the EU will probably collapse into a smaller collection of individual states, and will then grow over time into something larger and more federal, more like the USA. How long that all takes I don't know, though I will be long dead.
> 
> I just think - sounding like a cracked record - that countries have not worked well for human peace and well-being and that we must move past them and onto the next stage, one that will be another stepping stone towards a single human world. We have to move beyond the tribal distinctions represented by countries to one tribe containing all human beings. We have to recognise our primitive instincts for what they are and leave them behind.


Well said. I too think that if we want to end suffering, starvation and in-equality for the most basic requirement for a good life, countries acting for their own self interest isn't the way to achieve that. We need to work collectively for the betterment of mankind and the planet. Just on tackling environmental issues it will be the collective will of many countries working together that can make a difference, not isolated ones trying to create a competitive advantage for themselves and refusing to share.


----------



## Elles

cbcdesign said:


> So you are old enough then the future ramifications of Brexit, particularly a hard Brexit would affect your live for considerably less time that for younger members of our society. It cannot be right or fair that older people in my generation and yours who are in the latter stages of our lives should rob younger people of the rights and advantages we had as members of the EU.


So what age do you think should be the cut off for voting?


----------



## cbcdesign

kimthecat said:


> So at what age would it be fair to vote against it ?


Well to be honest I was against the whole notion of a referendum full stop. We have government to make decisions on complex issues like membership of the EU because they understand the complexities to a much greater degree than we do. If our MPs had voted on this in Parliament the result would have been very different.

So to answer your question as best I can at no age do I believe the public are qualified to vote on such an important matter. Have referendums on whether or not we should continue putting the clock back in the Autumn, not on something as dangerously divisive and potentially damaging as leaving our single biggest trading partners.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Rebellion against May stalls. Only 21 letters of no confidence where handed in, in total. So May survives the threat of a leadership challenge.

It has been one of the most difficult 24 hours of May's premiership.


----------



## noushka05

mewtoo said:


> Wanting to live sovereign in your own land is not extreme.
> It's actually the wanting to cede sovereignty to a foreign government which is the extreme position.


This >>>>

Those Brexiteers who contend that the withdrawal agreement now threatens UK
sovereignty... .

..are implicitly admitting UK retained its sovereignty all along as a member of the EU.



mewtoo said:


> h, yes they did.
> Leaving the EU is exceptionally simple.
> It does not even require a negotiation


It requires negotiation if you want food on the shelves & medicines, if you want to maintain peace in Ireland, if you dont want millions of job losses.



mewtoo said:


> Any government which wanted to leave the EU of course.


By leave - you mean crash out without a deal?



mewtoo said:


> People voted to leave precisely because they understood that the consequences of leaving the EU were favourable to the consequences of staying in t


You're in for an almighty shock if we crash out then lmao.



mewtoo said:


> Why did loads of Green Party members desert the Green Party for the Labour Party when communists got into leadership positions of the Labour Party?


Its quite simple why. Corbyn ditched neoliberalism when he became leader of the party, some people, probably traditional labour supporters fed up with new labour, felt the party represented the people it was supposed to once again and left the Greens.



mewtoo said:


> The Labour Party does not advertise that it is communist.
> 
> The Green Party does not advertise that it is communism-lite.


They don't advertise it because neither labour or the Greens are communist parties. I've noticed, _a lot_, that people on the extreme right lump those which oppose them together and call them all commies or Marxists. They can only see in very black & white terms.



mewtoo said:


> If a person wants to vote for environmental protections, then they must find a party which not only cares for the environment, but which will not enact policies which would lead to environmental destruction.


What policies will the greens enact which would lead to environmental destruction?



mewtoo said:


> t springs to mind that the person who said that the UK Government should offer those things was Nigel Farage, but he was not allowed to be part of the process of leaving even though he was the best candidate. Why wasn't he allowed?


I suspected you were probably a Farage fan. Am I right to assume you're pro Trump too?


mewtoo said:


> Well, if you were Theresa May then you wouldn't want someone competent like him anywhere near it - you'd put a pro-EU communist in charge of it all, which is exactly what she did. We've all been stitched up.**


Is everyone to the left of Farage a communist ?



Elles said:


> They wanted to stay in. Messing about for 2 years was in their best interests, not leaving the day after the vote.


No they do not want to stay in, if they did they'd put the peoples vote on the table . May wants to drag us out with her dreadful deal, the brextremists want us to crash out with no deal.



mewtoo said:


> The EU is more interested in the UK's money. We have been a cash cow for the EU for decades, at great detriment to ourselves.
> 
> Other things which they are interested in the UK for:
> -ideological reasons: they want all of Europe* subsumed into the super-state
> -our nukes and armed forces: the EU wants an army
> -strategic reasons: the UK, as proven in history, makes a great bridgehead
> -our resources: they want our shale gas and fish
> 
> Theresa May has done an excellent job of giving them as much of what they want.
> 
> If anyone is interested, here are some historical examples of British politicians serving foreign governments:
> 
> 1. After WW1, Labour Party politicians stopped the UK from rearming properly because they believed that our guns might be turned against their bosses in the Soviet Union. consequently, we were unprepared for WW2.
> 2. During WW2, Labour Politicians (again) wanted the Normandy landings to happens sooner, before were ready, to relieve pressure on the forces of their bosses in the Soviet Union. Had this front opened sooner, our losses would have been far higher.
> 3. Iraq War!
> 4. Etc.
> 
> *Not just Europe though. There is a side project called the Mediterranean Union, with the aim of incorporating North Africa into the EU. The eventual idea is to include all of Africa into the EU which, I assume, will change its name when this happens, haha.


Your conspiracy theories sound like they come straight out of Infowars. Is that where you get your information from? Or is it Westmonster or Breitbart?


Happy Paws said:


> Thank You _"mewtoo_" I needed a good laugh today


:Hilarious Mewtoo's posts have given me the best laugh I've had this week! Comedy gold :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

cbcdesign said:


> Well said. I too think that if we want to end suffering, starvation and in-equality for the most basic requirement for a good life, countries acting for their own self interest isn't the way to achieve that. We need to work collectively for the betterment of mankind and the planet. Just on tackling environmental issues it will be the collective will of many countries working together that can make a difference, not isolated ones trying to create a competitive advantage for themselves and refusing to share.


I wish I could rep you for this excellent post. Well said x


----------



## Arnie83

cbcdesign said:


> Well said. I too think that if we want to end suffering, starvation and in-equality for the most basic requirement for a good life, countries acting for their own self interest isn't the way to achieve that. We need to work collectively for the betterment of mankind and the planet. Just on tackling environmental issues it will be the collective will of many countries working together that can make a difference, not isolated ones trying to create a competitive advantage for themselves and refusing to share.


Spot on. Let's hope that one day we give it a go.


----------



## noushka05

Facebook page of a German news show.


----------



## noushka05

I feel absolutely gutted for my children, for the young generation.

_"I saw Gove, Johnson, Farage promising things that could never happen, and they've all run away now"_

A teenager on @BBCQuestionTime says his _"future has been taken away"_ by #Brexit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063438286889340930


----------



## stockwellcat.

So please explain to me why teenagers voted for Brexit then? They where subjected to a huge amount of abuse the day after the Referendaum from remainers online.

Why has their future been taken away from them. The EU Withdrawal Agreement does not affect Citizen's rights and they stay the same as they are now? The withdrawal agreement is to withdraw from the EU. Things still need to be discussed about the future relationship.


----------



## stockwellcat.

In 2016 a Labour MP told the Evening Standard: "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave." He added in the same interview that Blair's government had lost trust by underplaying the numbers who would come from the EU accession countries. "That one mistake ... may I think have been the biggest driver of why we left the European Union." He was correct on both counts. Except the MP Chuka Umunna now campaigns to overturn the referendum result.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/16/labour-mp-deal-no-deal-eu-brexit

It seems Labour MP's cannot be trusted either. They lie to. Welcome to Politics it is about who is the best liar.


----------



## noushka05

How shameful is this? We're the 5th richest country in the world! And its austerity on steriods for us when we leave the EU. I fear so much for my children. I've told them both if they get the chance get out of this ****hole and move to a nice country.

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 8h8 hours ago
Congratulations, Tories. This is quite a report:

14 million live in poverty 
1.5 million are destitute 
Child poverty may rise to 40%. 
Use of food banks soaring. 
All driven by 'social re-engineering' not economic necessity.

You must feel very proud.

*UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says*
Poverty envoy says callous policies driven by political desire for social re-engineering

https://www.theguardian.com/society...as-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says


----------



## kimthecat

cbcdesign said:


> Well to be honest I was against the whole notion of a referendum full stop. We have government to make decisions on complex issues like membership of the EU because they understand the complexities to a much greater degree than we do. If our MPs had voted on this in Parliament the result would have been very different.
> 
> So to answer your question as best I can at no age do I believe the public are qualified to vote on such an important matter. Have referendums on whether or not we should continue putting the clock back in the Autumn, not on something as dangerously divisive and potentially damaging as leaving our single biggest trading partners.


 But it has happened and really , you haven't answered the question . I'm not asking your opinion on referendums.
You said
.


> It cannot be right or fair that* older people *in my generation and yours who are in the latter stages of our lives should rob *younger people* of the rights and advantages we had as members of the EU.


 So it would be alright if "younger people" did . Apparently , About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, ( The Guardian ) and You Gov said 18 to 24 year olds voted 71% to remain and 29 % to Leave,
25 to 49 year olds voted 54% to remain and 46 % to leave
Nearly 30% youths voted leave and 36 % didnt vote .
Perhaps if there's another referendum they should make it under thirties only.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> But it has happened and really , you haven't answered the question . I'm not asking your opinion on referendums.
> You said
> .


The EU have collectively said:

*Brexit deal: take it or leave it*


> Their leaders lined up later in the day on Friday to emphasise that a renegotiation of the 107,000-word draft withdrawal treaty was not on the cards and highlight the risk to the British economy of parliament rejecting what has been agreed with Downing Street.





> One EU senior diplomat said a renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement was an "impossible" request and that the EU had to trust the agreement it had with the British government. "Even if Theresa May falls, we have an agreement with the government," the diplomat said.


https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-deal-take-it-or-leave-it-eu-tells-britain

Yet remainers want Parliament to reject the deal and drive the UK into a no deal Brexit. Well the ball is in your court remainers. No second referendum is on offer. No second chance. The EU have made it clear what will happen if the deal is rejected by Parliament and you refuse to listen because you are blinded by trying to stop something that cannot be stopped now.


----------



## kimthecat

cbcdesign said:


> Well said. I too think that if we want to end suffering, starvation and in-equality for the most basic requirement for a good life, countries acting for their own self interest isn't the way to achieve that. We need to work collectively for the betterment of mankind and the planet. Just on tackling environmental issues it will be the collective will of many countries working together that can make a difference, not isolated ones trying to create a competitive advantage for themselves and refusing to share.


How much does the UK send to poorer countries ? Is it the EU that decides ?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> How shameful is this? We're the 5th richest country in the world! And its austerity on steriods for us when we leave the EU. I fear so much for my children. I've told them both if they get the chance get out of this ****hole and move to a nice country.
> 
> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 8h8 hours ago
> Congratulations, Tories. This is quite a report:
> 
> 14 million live in poverty
> 1.5 million are destitute
> Child poverty may rise to 40%.
> Use of food banks soaring.
> All driven by 'social re-engineering' not economic necessity.
> 
> You must feel very proud.
> 
> *UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says*
> Poverty envoy says callous policies driven by political desire for social re-engineering
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...as-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says


This is all in the Eu. The main problem is the time it takes to settle claims. People can be waiting up to 12 weeks to get any money and for the disabled trying to prove they are disabled, even longer. This is scandalous and nothing to do with the Eu.


----------



## Elles

cbcdesign said:


> Well to be honest I was against the whole notion of a referendum full stop. We have government to make decisions on complex issues like membership of the EU because they understand the complexities to a much greater degree than we do. If our MPs had voted on this in Parliament the result would have been very different.
> 
> So to answer your question as best I can at no age do I believe the public are qualified to vote on such an important matter. Have referendums on whether or not we should continue putting the clock back in the Autumn, not on something as dangerously divisive and potentially damaging as leaving our single biggest trading partners.


There's a good chance that without the referendum a brexit government would eventually been voted in and taken us out anyway. The more the public were denied, the more they protested and the more popular the politicians who wanted to take us out of the Eu became. I think we would have got a vote eventually, whether a referendum, or via general elections. We couldn't rely on government to keep us in, any more than we could rely on the People. As it happens our government weren't ready to leave, so we have more chance imo of staying in than if we'd voted in a leave government in the future.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> This is all in the Eu. The main problem is the time it takes to settle claims. People can be waiting up to 12 weeks to get any money and for the disabled trying to prove they are disabled, even longer. This is scandalous and nothing to do with the Eu.


Exactly, the UK is a sovereign country free to make its own domestic policies My point hard brexit or no brexit means we are going to get austerity on steroids. This is called disaster capitalism - the tories will use the chaos created by brexit to ramp up austerity (& environmental destruction etc). Bye bye, NHS.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Exactly, the UK is a sovereign country free to make its own domestic policies My point hard brexit or no brexit means we are going to get austerity on steroids. This is called disaster capitalism - the tories will use the chaos created by brexit to ramp up austerity (& environmental destruction etc). Bye bye, NHS.


Then it will be down to the voters to vote them out.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Then it will be down to the voters to vote them out.


It wont matter Elles May has negotiated a brexit to hamstring any progressive government from implementing their policies. T_he Withdrawal Agreement is very strong on preventing state aid but much weaker on workers' rights and environmental protections. _Remoaners tried to warn this was what brexit was always about for the tories.



kimthecat said:


> So it would be alright if "younger people" did . Apparently , About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, ( The Guardian ) and You Gov said 18 to 24 year olds voted 71% to remain and 29 % to Leave,


75% of 18-24 year olds voted against brexit, a massive 78% of young people now say they would vote remain. The majority of under 55s dont want it.

_
Not only are young voters turning against Brexit, but through demographic shifts the UK will support remain as a nation by January 2019. The original majority of 1,269,501 is falling by 1,350 votes every day - meaning it will have disappeared completely two months before the official Brexit date https://www.ofoc.co.uk/new_poll_reveals_overwhelming_and_growing_support_for_eu_among_young_people_


----------



## Calvine

mewtoo said:


> That doesn't make sense, because Brexiteers haven't played a part in exiting the EU.


I doubt that anyone was meant to take it that seriously or too literally . . . 
@Arnie83: A friend of mine dug it up on FB as far as I know.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Stephen Hammond becomes a health minister to replace new Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay.
> 
> John Penrose becomes a minister at the Northern Ireland Office to replace the resigned Shailesh Vara.
> 
> And Kwasi Kwarteng becomes a Brexit minister to replace the resigned Suella Braverman.


 TBH, I've never heard of most of them! I've just about heard of Stephen Hammond.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Use of food banks soaring.


I think this may be because there are more outlets where unwanted food is used rather than binned. The Sainsbury's near me has two large containers where people can put non-perishable things which they don't want . . . obviously one hopes it goes to those who really need it.

ETA: I did notice earlier this year that there were loads of Easter eggs in there. Occasionally there is a notice on the containers making a special request for pet food. Not sure if this goes to local charities or families with pets.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> It wont matter Elles May has negotiated a brexit to hamstring any progressive government from implementing their policies. T_he Withdrawal Agreement is very strong on preventing state aid but much weaker on workers' rights and environmental protections. _Remoaners tried to warn this was what brexit was always about for the tories.
> 
> 75% of 18-24 year olds voted against brexit, a massive 78% of young people now say they would vote remain. The majority of under 55s dont want it.


I don't thing young people wanting it is a recommendation. We're more likely to be influenced by our peers, the Internet, tweets, persuasive speakers etc in our youth than at just about any other time. It's why if we're going to, we generally take up destructive habits such as smoking, binge drinking and radicalism in our younger days and why radicals target media outlets popular with the young. Older people tend to be less easy to influence and more likely to have family member's futures to worry about. They don't take out funeral plans for their own benefit.

That's just generalising though. Ageism seems to be the one acceptable discrimination, now we can't pick on races or genders.

The Eu and the rest of Europe seem happy enough with the deal. They've said it's that or nothing. If it's that bad, it doesn't say much about them does it.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I think this may be because there are more outlets where unwanted food is used rather than binned. The Sainsbury's near me has two large containers where people can put non-perishable things which they don't want . . . obviously one hopes it goes to those who really need it.


More people need help because the tories have hammered people with their austerity policies. Its great supermarkets and communities are trying to help but there shouldn't be the need in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. We're an embarrassement.

Did you hear this about the 9 year old girl, whose mother had died , begging for work to help feed her family Calvine? https://meaww.com/child-humanity-torbay-uk-universal-credit-begs-for-work-to-help-feed-her-family


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't thing young people wanting it is a recommendation. We're more likely to be influenced by our peers, the Internet, tweets, persuasive speakers etc in our youth than at just about any other time. It's why if we're going to, we generally take up destructive habits such as smoking, binge drinking and radicalism in our younger days and why radicals target media outlets popular with the young. Older people tend to be less easy to influence and more likely to have family member's futures to worry about. They don't take out funeral plans for their own benefit.
> 
> That's just generalising though. Ageism seems to be the one acceptable discrimination, now we can't pick on races or genders.
> 
> The Eu and the rest of Europe seem happy enough with the deal. They've said it's that or nothing. If it's that bad, it doesn't say much about them does it.


Even now,you really seem to be underestimating our young generation when they have been proved to be excellent at evaluating the pros and cons of leaving the EU. I suspect a fair number of the older generation who voted leave subscribe to the right wing press. I've seen some on this forum parroting anti EU garbage  No wonder they hate the EU










The EU must be sick to the back teeth of trying to negotiate with that untrustworthy bunch of shysters in government, they must be desperate to get it over with so they get back to some kind of normality. You cant blame the EU for our TERRIBLE deal.


----------



## noushka05

I love this convo.

_It's easy to say that. I'm just gonna vote Corbyn and I'm sure a lot of people will. Just to kick these people where it hurts_

_
I voted Leave and Conservative. I have never voted Labour. But I am in complete agreement with you and plan to do the same - vote Labour for the 1st time ever. 
The Tories need teaching a lesson and I no longer care if the price of that is a Corbyn government

._


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> The Eu and the rest of Europe seem happy enough with the deal. They've said it's that or nothing. If it's that bad, it doesn't say much about them does it.


I think it speaks volumes and reiterates my feeling towards the whole self serving set up which is the EU.


----------



## noushka05

Welcome to tory Britain. Buckle up cos its set to get miles worse.

UN Official Slams the Conservative Government, saying: "Open your eyes - there is very real poverty out there."
"People in the UK living in destitution & the government haven't been out to see what the real circumstances.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063536043780161537


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I think it speaks volumes and reiterates my feeling towards the whole self serving set up which is the EU.


Blame remainers, blame the EU This mess is ALL the tories fault, they set out their impossible red lines, promised unicorns. It was blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively how this ****show would turn out. Own it Rona.


----------



## noushka05

haha

Joe is goood.


----------



## noushka05

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/support-caroline-lucas-to-get-a-peoples-vote


----------



## noushka05

Theresa May:
"No deal is better than a bad deal."
"No deal is better than a bad deal."
"No deal is better than a bad deal."
"No deal is better than a bad deal."
"No deal is better than a bad deal."

"A bad deal is better than no deal."
(via David Schneider)

Tory line for 2 and a half years: No deal is better than a bad deal

My brain:
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it
Don't say it

Me:
Liam Fox: "Ultimately I hope that across Parliament will recognise a deal is better than no deal."

(via Owen Jones)
.............................

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider

*Dear Brexiters. 
There's no deal better than the one we have now. 
There's no deal better than the one we have now. 
There's no deal better than the one we have now. 
There's no deal better than the one we have now. 
There's no deal better than the one we have now*


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Liam Fox have decided to stay in cabinet to push the PM to re-negotiate the deal. Don't they listen to what the EU Leaders have said? The EU Leaders have said there is no appetite to re-open negotiations and re-negotiate the deal and have said that if the UK Parliament rejects the deal then there is nothing else except no deal. So how are Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Liam Fox going to manage to talk the EU around as the deal is a take it or leave it deal and the EU Leaders have been clear about this and are not going to budge? If May couldn't get the EU to budge then what makes them think they can?


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU Leaders have said there is no appetite to re-open negotiations and re-negotiate the deal and have said that if the UK Parliament rejects the deal then there is nothing else except no deal.


They will vote this through, it protects their investments and pensions. They won't care about anything else.......That is unless Corbyns ego overtakes him and he's arrogant enough to think he can do better.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> So Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Liam Fox have decided to stay in cabinet to push the PM to re-negotiate the deal.


Well that's what they've chosen to say - today. Tomorrow (or even later today) it will be different, and then different again after that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Well that's what they've chosen to say - today. Tomorrow (or even later today) it will be different, and then different again after that.


This option though is not available. EU Leaders collectively said this yesterday and on Thursday evening. So what makes Leadsom, Gove and Fox think it is? It is a take it or leave it deal but rejecting the deal means no deal. This has been spelt out clearly by the EU in the last day and a half by EU Leaders. Yes I know Tusk said what he said Thursday morning putting on his performance pretending he was going to cry but other EU Leaders including Guy Verhofstadt even voiced the deal is on the table and is not re-negotiable and rejecting it would mean no deal. So what makes Leadsom, Gove and Fox think it is re-negotiable?


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> So what makes Leadsom, Gove and Fox think it is?


It isn't. They're hedging their bets.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit commemorating coin....


----------



## cheekyscrip

So Deal will not get through.
How anyone can expect tha those who want to Remain should support any Brexit deal?
Reminder : just about half of the voters wanted Brexit and those who wanted had quite diverse expectations of what it should be.
Many of them without any thought about compromise needed with EU or realistic assessment of consequences. 

So Deal will rejected. Because Labour wants General election and if in power then their own Brexit, which I cannot believe will be different from what is on offer because EU made their position clear.

Or we will have No Deal because and then no one knows exactly except it will cause chaos and for NI , Gibraltar, Channel Islands will be ruinous.
And Welsh farmers.

Seems until recession and chaos affect the people they will not be willing to admit they were had.

The interview with Amber Rudd was the best illustration - she was asked if the Deal is better than Remain - she did not answer- just that “ Will of the people and best we can do with it”.

I thought Brexit will basically plunge Britain into political and economic crisis, while we had growing economy and what for?


Belonging to a trade bloc is not being under the occupation of foreign power!!!


And what will make anyone think Britain in crisis, on their own will have better negotiating positions with Non EU countries than the EU?



Why it is so difficult to find honest, competent people for Brexit jobs?
Because realistic, honest, competent people don’t support Brexit.

All May, Rudd etc are doing are desperate attempts at damage limitation.
Damage that could be stopped.
If we eat humble pie.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Liam Fox have decided to stay in cabinet to push the PM to re-negotiate the deal. Don't they listen to what the EU Leaders have said?


No. They still believe they hold all the cards and they need us more than we need them!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

No Deal means recession. 
Recession means unemployment and poverty for many.
For a long time, generation time?

I think young people especially can complain.
If you sit on a cushy pension well invested you might not worry about unemployment?

They do.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> They will vote this through, it protects their investments and pensions. They won't care about anything else.......That is unless Corbyns ego overtakes him and he's arrogant enough to think he can do better.


If labour vote for this pile of crap through they are finished. IMO


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> No Deal means recession.
> Recession means unemployment and poverty for many.
> For a long time, generation time?
> 
> I think young people especially can complain.
> If you sit on a cushy pension well invested you might not worry about unemployment?
> 
> They do.


Let them complain. There is nothing that can be done because if Parliament reject the deal it will be no deal and the EU Leaders have stressed this in the last 36 hours.

Young people voted to leave during the referendum in 2016 as well @cheekyscrip they aren't as white as snow you know.


----------



## noushka05

No words.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If labour vote for this pile of crap through they are finished. IMO


If they don't vote it through @noushka05 it is no deal. No second referendum, no second chances. The EU leaders have made this clear in the last 36 hours.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No words.


Cameron supports May's deal. He said this the other day.


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> If you sit on a cushy pension well invested you might not worry about unemployment


This can't hurt me but it can hurt others and the more vulnerable will hurt the most. I've reached the point of almost not caring, become quite hardened. If this mess, and it could never be anything but a mess, is the will of the people then they have to live with the consequences. It's exactly what they voted for. Whatever is being spouted, argued, claimed, there was never any way we could leave and be in a better position.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Cameron supports May's deal. He said this the other day.




You've spectacularly missed the point.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You've spectacularly missed the point.


I know what you was getting at but that was Cameron that said that not May.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I know what you was getting at but that was Cameron that said that not May.


#

*groan*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> #
> 
> *groan*


Yep I agree for once. GROAN


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> If they don't vote it through @noushka05 it is no deal. No second referendum, no second chances. The EU leaders have made this clear in the last 36 hours.


This is British democracy for you!


----------



## noushka05

WATCH: Donald Tusk confirms that we don't have to buy this humiliating deal, or crash out: we'd be welcome to stay. 
The real choice now is between a deal that nobody likes & the one we already have. 
Demand a #PeoplesVote: https://www.notbuyingit.uk/


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063117642280693760
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> WATCH: Donald Tusk confirms that we don't have to buy this humiliating deal, or crash out: we'd be welcome to stay.
> The real choice now is between a deal that nobody likes & the one we already have.
> Demand a #PeoplesVote: https://www.notbuyingit.uk/
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063117642280693760
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


That was in the morning @noushka05 on Thursday. By the afternoon EU Leaders said they have no appetite to renegotiate the deal and that the deal is on the table and is not re-negotiable and if the UK Parliament reject it, it would be no deal. Alot changes in a day of politics in the EU just like it does in the UK. I am sorry but Mr Tusks performance in the morning was over-ruled by the other EU Leaders later that day and reiterated yesterday (Friday).

It is a take it or leave it deal @noushka05 even the other EU Leaders have said this.


----------



## noushka05

I wonder what this means. Can anyone speak German?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> That was in the morning @noushka05 on Thursday. By the afternoon EU Leaders said they have no appetite to renegotiate the deal and that the deal is on the table and is not re-negotiable and if the UK Parliament reject it, it would be no deal. Alot changes in a day of politics in the EU just like it does in the UK. I am sorry but Mr Tusks performance in the morning was over-ruled by the other EU Leaders later that day and reiterated yesterday (Friday).
> 
> It is a take it or leave it deal @noushka05 even the other EU Leaders have said this.


No it isnt. We can call the whole thing off. I know you and some leavers on here voted to be worse off, but I pretty sure most leavers believed we'd be better off.


----------



## noushka05

Everyone needs to read this story. This is why we need a Muller style enquiry.

Carole Cadwalladr summarises everything she has learned about Russian involvement in Brexit

This is not conspiracy theory but conspiracy fact!

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/11/16/why-britain-needs-its-own-mueller/

.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I wonder what this means. Can anyone speak German?


Headline says: 
The British government is staggering

The first bit after this says..
Resistance to Theresa May Brexit's plan plunges her cab into the crisis:

Then it goes on to say 2 ministers resign etc.

But she has managed to employ new ministers noushka so what is the problem?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No it isnt. We can call the whole thing off. I know you and some leavers on here voted to be worse off, but I pretty sure most leavers believed we'd be better off.


You really have missed all the news from the EU in the last 36 hours.
To call it off all 27 countries would have to agree to it. That is the rules.Do you really think they will? If the deal at the moment is rejected the UK gets no deal.

It has been all over the news and EU leaders have been saying the same thing except Tusk.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Let them complain. There is nothing that can be done because if Parliament reject the deal it will be no deal and the EU Leaders have stressed this in the last 36 hours.
> 
> Young people voted to leave during the referendum in 2016 as well @cheekyscrip they aren't as white as snow you know.


You sound so heartless SWC. Don't you feel any sympathy for young people like this lad?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063438286889340930
.,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> You really have missed all the news from the EU in the last 36 hours.
> To call it off all 27 countries would have to agree to it. That is the rules.Do you really think they will? If the deal at the moment is rejected the UK gets no deal.
> 
> It has been all over the news and EU leaders have been saying the same thing except Tusk.


Quite correct .... here you go....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-deal-take-it-or-leave-it-eu-tells-britain


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Headline says:
> The British government is staggering
> 
> The first bit after this says..
> Resistance to Theresa May Brexit's plan plunges her cab into the crisis:
> 
> Then it goes on to say 2 ministers resign etc.
> 
> But she has managed to employ new ministers noushka so what is the problem?


Sigh. I know, I can use google translate. It was meant to be a bit of humour SWC.


----------



## KittenKong

I like reading what other countries think of this farce, even from the US.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-brexit-fantasy-goes-down-in-tears


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Quite correct .... here you go....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-deal-take-it-or-leave-it-eu-tells-britain


The problem I have noticed with some remainers is they read the news they want to read and take no notice of the real news and then argue the t*ss.

Then they post silly cartoons.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Quite correct .... here you go....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-deal-take-it-or-leave-it-eu-tells-britain


We could just scrap brexit altogether and stay as we are. The government should put that on the table. We weren't sold a bad deal and a disastrous no deal, we were led to believe we would be better out of the EU Not significantly worse in all areas.

The tories withdrawal agreement is disastrous for the environment - How will we be able to tackle climate breakdown now the tories tied the hands of future governments? We have 12 years to save our living planet @Magyarmum ! The brextremists have deliberately screwed up the future for our children and grandchildren. Unforgivable.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> No Deal means recession.
> Recession means unemployment and poverty for many.
> For a long time, generation time?
> 
> I think young people especially can complain.
> If you sit on a cushy pension well invested you might not worry about unemployment?
> 
> They do.


Parliament will find a way to avoid a No Deal scenario, and if that means extending or halting A50 then so be it. There's a handful of Brextremists who claim it wouldn't be a problem, but even they don't believe what they're saying.


----------



## JANICE199

*Can i just say this, there is no point in people falling out or getting humpy over this subject. We are all in the dark, including our leaders. Grit your teeth and hope for the best. *


----------



## havoc

At some point surely even the most ardent brexiteers are going to have to admit this whole thing couldn't work out as they'd claimed. This deal isn't great but it does address the main issues leavers claimed they voted on (at the time) and a no deal exit would be even worse.


----------



## Arnie83

I can't see all the discussion, so excuse me if I'm repeating other posts, but wrt calling Brexit off, the ECJ is due to pass judgement on whether the UK can unilaterally cancel Article 50. From what I've read, legal opinion is tending towards "Yes, they can", but that is far from certain.

The case is supposed to be heard on Nov 27, so that Parliament will know the answer before their 'meaningful vote'.

The UK government has appealed to have the case blocked on the basis that it is 'hypothetical' since they don't intend to revoke A50. This strikes me as a pretty weak reason since governments change their minds like I change my socks, and they didn't intend to do a lot of things that have happened during the last 2 years. 

That probably isn't a good legal argument, but it seems reasonable to me for Parliament to be in full possession of the facts before they vote. I hoped we might have learned that lesson in 2016. The government clearly think differently.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Let them complain. There is nothing that can be done because if Parliament reject the deal it will be no deal and the EU Leaders have stressed this in the last 36 hours.
> 
> Young people voted to leave during the referendum in 2016 as well @cheekyscrip they aren't as white as snow you know.


And older people voted Remain.
Talking about trends here.


havoc said:


> At some point surely even the most ardent brexiteers are going to have to admit this whole thing couldn't work out as they'd claimed. This deal isn't great but it does address the main issues leavers claimed they voted on (at the time) and a no deal exit would be even worse.


oh, but we will be forever free from alien invasion...


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see all the discussion, so excuse me if I'm repeating other posts, but wrt calling Brexit off, the ECJ is due to pass judgement on whether the UK can unilaterally cancel Article 50. From what I've read, legal opinion is tending towards "Yes, they can", but that is far from certain.
> 
> The case is supposed to be heard on Nov 27, so that Parliament will know the answer before their 'meaningful vote'.
> 
> The UK government has appealed to have the case blocked on the basis that it is 'hypothetical' since they don't intend to revoke A50. This strikes me as a pretty weak reason since governments change their minds like I change my socks, and they didn't intend to do a lot of things that have happened during the last 2 years.
> 
> That probably isn't a good legal argument, but it seems reasonable to me for Parliament to be in full possession of the facts before they vote. I hoped we might have learned that lesson in 2016. The government clearly think differently.


*Facts you say? have there been any since the country had the referendum? *


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *Facts you say? have there been any since the country had the referendum? *


Pound fell 18%. But we did not reap much of the upside of that either.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *Facts you say? have there been any since the country had the referendum? *


*There were no facts given to us, before we had the referendum either.*


----------



## havoc

JANICE199 said:


> *Facts you say? have there been any since the country had the referendum? *


Very few but people do seem to have a need to cling on to anything and revel in the drama. Just look at this thread over the last few days - hour by hour there are comments about how the letters are in, May is gone, won't last the day etc. Here we are and a bit of a cabinet change around has been the most that's actually happened.


----------



## noushka05

*Isabella White*‏ @ninaismeblog
I'm 18 and I couldn't vote in the EU referendum. This is going to impact my future to a large extent and to be honest, I feel my future has been taken away from me. 
We young people are being stripped off our European citizenship and we didn't even have a say in the matter.

11:27 PM - 15 Nov 2018


*6,903* Retweets
*27,184* Likes


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Isabella White*‏ @ninaismeblog
> I'm 18 and I couldn't vote in the EU referendum. This is going to impact my future to a large extent and to be honest, I feel my future has been taken away from me.
> We young people are being stripped off our European citizenship and we didn't even have a say in the matter.
> 
> 11:27 PM - 15 Nov 2018
> 
> 
> *6,903* Retweets
> *27,184* Likes


I bet those of that lower age range that could vote at the time are kicking themselves if they didn't. There were quite a few.


----------



## noushka05

*Tom Kibasi, IPPR*‏ @TomKibasi
Do not be deceived: this is no Lexit








Lowers labour standards and curtails trade union rights







Weakens environmental protections







Imposes more stringent limits on state aid than EU membership

Hard to see Labour MPs voting for it Me for Indy voices. - https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...jeremy-corbyn-second-referendum-a8638531.html


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I bet those of that lower age range that could vote at the time are kicking themselves if they didn't. There were quite a few.


#

I bet a lot of people in all demographics who didn't vote but could are kicking themselves


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> #
> 
> I bet a lot of people in all demographics who didn't vote but could are kicking themselves


Quite


----------



## noushka05

The state of these brexit zealots

C*ornwall for Europe #FBPE*‏ @Cornwall4EU Nov 15
This bloke in the #bbcqt audience thinks we should go ahead with a no-deal 
#Brexit because it won't be any worse than World War 2.

This is about all the Brexiters have left now, and they genuinely don't understand how ridiculous they sound. #Brexit #PeoplesVote


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *Facts you say? have there been any since the country had the referendum? *


Don't get me started!


----------



## Elles

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...s-one-of-his-better-days-in-politics-10932124

The Irish PM likes the deal.

Some remainers are digging their heels in because they want to remain and anything that isn't remaining is a bad deal in their eyes. Saying that the Eu agreed to it because they're fed up and just want to get on with life is a ridiculous statement imo. For a start we can't know that and secondly 27 countries are relying on them to negotiate on their behalf. If they've given up, because they're fed up with it, then it's another reason to get rid of them isn't it. Maybe they'll give up on other talks and negotiations when they get fed up.

There is plenty of money in the pot to take care of the weak and vulnerable in our society. It's down to our own government bodies, central and local, to make sure they get what they need and promptly. That is a separate issue to brexit.

Cherry picking individuals and groups to make your points, still isn't representative of people generally. Voting in Corbyn would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's become quite clear that he's always wanted to leave the Eu and always had. It's why he was pretty absent before the referendum, people were quite right. I don't see it's a good thing that some are saying they'd vote for him just to have a go at Theresa May.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...s-one-of-his-better-days-in-politics-10932124
> 
> The Irish PM likes the deal.
> 
> Some remainers are digging their heels in because they want to remain and anything that isn't remaining is a bad deal in their eyes. Saying that the Eu agreed to it because they're fed up and just want to get on with life is a ridiculous statement imo. For a start we can't know that and secondly 27 countries are relying on them to negotiate on their behalf. If they've given up, because they're fed up with it, then it's another reason to get rid of them isn't it. Maybe they'll give up on other talks and negotiations when they get fed up.
> 
> There is plenty of money in the pot to take care of the weak and vulnerable in our society. It's down to our own government bodies, central and local, to make sure they get what they need and promptly. That is a separate issue to brexit.
> 
> Cherry picking individuals and groups to make your points, still isn't representative of people generally. Voting in Corbyn would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's become quite clear that he's always wanted to leave the Eu and always had. It's why he was pretty absent before the referendum, people were quite right. I don't see it's a good thing that some are saying they'd vote for him just to have a go at Theresa May.


As to Corbyn difficult not to agree.
Can't wait for Labour to get rid of him.

If Keir was to get the Labour job I am in.


----------



## Elles

The Eu have agreed to discuss small tweaks in wording in the agreement, but that’s it. If five brexit politicians want to renegotiate they’re probably out of luck. The Eu seem quite happy with what’s on the table, as does the Irish pm and Gibraltar and Cyprus. If we’re leaving, it seems this deal is the direction they want to go. If Remainers think that a no deal brexit would be better, they aren’t as much in favour of the Eu as they make out imo. Nor are they considering others if they’d rather bring about what they themselves believe would be a complete disaster. 

I don’t think leaving with no deal would be quite the disaster they seem to think it would be, but they do.

Saying they don’t agree with leaving the Eu and would rather stay in, is a bit different to saying they don’t agree with the deal and would rather leave with no deal. The latter I would expect to hear from determined leave voters, not Remainers.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...s-one-of-his-better-days-in-politics-10932124
> 
> The Irish PM likes the deal.
> 
> Some remainers are digging their heels in because they want to remain and anything that isn't remaining is a bad deal in their eyes. Saying that the Eu agreed to it because they're fed up and just want to get on with life is a ridiculous statement imo. For a start we can't know that and secondly 27 countries are relying on them to negotiate on their behalf. If they've given up, because they're fed up with it, then it's another reason to get rid of them isn't it. Maybe they'll give up on other talks and negotiations when they get fed up.
> 
> There is plenty of money in the pot to take care of the weak and vulnerable in our society. It's down to our own government bodies, central and local, to make sure they get what they need and promptly. That is a separate issue to brexit.
> 
> Cherry picking individuals and groups to make your points, still isn't representative of people generally. Voting in Corbyn would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's become quite clear that he's always wanted to leave the Eu and always had. It's why he was pretty absent before the referendum, people were quite right. I don't see it's a good thing that some are saying they'd vote for him just to have a go at Theresa May.


No Elles, its a terrible deal. Just as we remainers predicted it would be. That's why we reject it. >>>> https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...it-deal-open-the-door-to-chlorinated-chicken/

You still dont seem to understand tory idology & how they use crises for their disaster capitalism. I recommend Naomi Kleins book The Shock Doctrine, if you're interested in informing yourself .

I would vote labour under any leader to block the nasty party. The suffering May and the tories have caused on an industrial scale through their evil ideology, to humans and animals alike, is heartbreaking !

And actually, people are wrong - Corbyn was not pretty absent before the referendum at all. He campaigned for remain & got labour the remain vote. Professor John Curtice - the polls showed only Tory voters could have kept us in the EU. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...remy-corbyn-brexit-remain-labour-conservative


----------



## Elles

I see. So I’m too stupid to understand and read all the wrong information. Unlike yourself, you’re informed and enlightened I suppose.

It’s not a great deal and it leaves quite a bit open for further investigation in the future. However, the Eu, the European countries and their leaders and countries like Ireland and Gib are in support of it. That is the irony. The Eu and Europe that Remainers support and want to be a part of and have represent them, support this deal and helped negotiate it. Yet they themselves would rather leave with no deal.

I’m pointing out the irony, not supporting a deal I’ve barely had time to read in its entirety. Unlike the Eu negotiators who helped draft it and the Eu politicians who support it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> If Remainers think that a no deal brexit would be better,


Of course they dont think no deal would be better - only leave zealots think that. Terrible deal or no deal is a lose, lose for our country - better to swallow our pride and cancel the whole thing.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Of course they dont think no deal would be better - only leave zealots think that. Terrible deal or no deal is a lose, lose for our country - better to swallow our pride and cancel the whole thing.


@KittenKong said it in one of their posts and many Remainers are reportedly saying the same thing, that they'd rather leave with no deal than accept may's deal.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I see. So I'm too stupid to understand and read all the wrong information. Unlike yourself, you're informed and enlightened I suppose.
> 
> It's not a great deal and it leaves quite a bit open for further investigation in the future. However, the Eu, the European countries and their leaders and countries like Ireland and Gib are in support of it. That is the irony. The Eu and Europe that Remainers support and want to be a part of and have represent them, support this deal and helped negotiate it. Yet they themselves would rather leave with no deal.
> 
> I'm pointing out the irony, not supporting a deal I've barely had time to read in its entirety. Unlike the Eu negotiators who helped draft it and the Eu politicians who support it.


Please provide links if you dispute mine.

I'm never supporting a terrible deal OR a no deal. My childrens future - our living planet matter far too much to me.


----------



## JANICE199

noushka05 said:


> Of course they dont think no deal would be better - only leave zealots think that. Terrible deal or no deal is a lose, lose for our country - better to swallow our pride and cancel the whole thing.


*I'd gp along with the last sentence. Oh, and has this country got any pride? I feel the world is laughing at us.*


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @KittenKong said it in one of their posts and many Remainers are reportedly saying the same thing, that they'd rather leave with no deal than accept may's deal.


Not me. I reject both. Theres NO WAY we can tackle climate breakdown in either option.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I see. So I'm too stupid to understand and read all the wrong information. Unlike yourself, you're informed and enlightened I suppose.
> 
> It's not a great deal and it leaves quite a bit open for further investigation in the future. However, the Eu, the European countries and their leaders and countries like Ireland and Gib are in support of it. That is the irony. The Eu and Europe that Remainers support and want to be a part of and have represent them, support this deal and helped negotiate it. *Yet they themselves would rather leave with no deal.*
> 
> I'm pointing out the irony, not supporting a deal I've barely had time to read in its entirety. Unlike the Eu negotiators who helped draft it and the Eu politicians who support it.


Sorry Elles, I'm being thick here ... What Remainers are saying they are happier with No Deal than with May's Deal?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> @KittenKong said it in one of their posts and many Remainers are reportedly saying the same thing, that they'd rather leave with no deal than accept may's deal.


Not quite right. Remainers want to stop Brexit full stop.

Having said that, for me to accept May's deal would be worse than having no deal. Her deal only postpones the inevitable no deal until the end of the transition period anyway.

For any remainer to cave in and to accept her deal as it's better than no deal, but deprives us of EU citizenship and FOM rights is exactly what she wants.

I won't fall for that trap.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Not quite right. Remainers want to stop Brexit full stop.
> 
> Having said that, for me to accept May's deal would be worse than having no deal. *Her deal only postpones the inevitable no deal until the end of the transition period anyway.*
> 
> For any remainer to cave in and to accept her deal as it's better than no deal, but deprives us of EU citizenship and FOM rights is exactly what she wants.
> 
> I won't fall for that trap.


Do you think that will be the case?

The Parliamentary shenanigans haven't started on the future deal yet (as far as I know) but I can't see there being no vote on it, since it is a lot more important than the Withdrawal Agreement. And the majority against a No Deal will be no smaller than it is now. They wouldn't allow it, would they?


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on. Seen on FB.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Spot on. Seen on FB.
> View attachment 376231


That's also the last stage getting Parliament to vote down the agreement.

Listen to the EU leaders not your friends on facebook and twitter. The EU leaders are in control of this now. Read the news you refuse to read about what will happen if Parliament vote down the agreement. The leaders of the EU are in no mood to re-negotiate or are not interested in the political termiol in the UK. Refusing the deal won't stop Brexit as remainers hope it will it will be the no deal they are trying to avoid. Parliament will have no say over no deal either.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> You still dont seem to understand tory idology & how they use crises for their disaster capitalism. I recommend Naomi Kleins book The Shock Doctrine, if you're interested in informing yourself .


You might want to rephrase this, it's a bit insulting.

As a private landlord I was always a conservative voter. But their attacks on the man on the street businessman have got to a point where they only support capitalism if it's big business or investment.

But, I can't in all conscience make myself vote Labour. Not with Corbyn at the helm particularly.

There just isn't any choice any more. At least Tony Blair for all his faults was more centre ground.

It's interesting to look at the political swing in this country over time. When a political party heads towards the extreme of their ideology (left or right) there is historically a centre ground government that takes over. I saw a thing on the internet on it, but I can't find it. Trouble is as the conservatives shift to the right, there is no centre ground from Labour to save the day. Feels like a stalemate.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> It's interesting to look at the political swing in this country over time. When a political party heads towards the extreme of their ideology (left or right) there is historically a centre ground government that takes over. I saw a thing on the internet on it, but I can't find it. Trouble is as the conservatives shift to the right, there is no centre ground from Labour to save the day. *Feels like a stalemate.*


Feels like I haven't got anyone to vote for!


----------



## stockwellcat.

The blind are leading the blind over the cliff. 

Those that are blind in this reference are the remainers and the cliff being the no deal they have fought so hard to avoid.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Popcorn is out as the leave voters watch the remainers do what the leave voters voted for and should have happened 2 years ago. Lead the country into a no deal as Parliament vote against the only deal on offer.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


>


Oh some remainers have seen sense then. The 60% that would prefer this deal to no deal.

But feel free those that don't to object and back no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Homemade Popcorn anyone?


----------



## kimthecat

So whats occuring ? @soickwellcat I haven't watched the news today!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You might want to rephrase this, it's a bit insulting.
> 
> As a private landlord I was always a conservative voter. But their attacks on the man on the street businessman have got to a point where they only support capitalism if it's big business or investment.
> 
> But, I can't in all conscience make myself vote Labour. Not with Corbyn at the helm particularly.
> 
> There just isn't any choice any more. At least Tony Blair for all his faults was more centre ground.
> 
> It's interesting to look at the political swing in this country over time. When a political party heads towards the extreme of their ideology (left or right) there is historically a centre ground government that takes over. I saw a thing on the internet on it, but I can't find it. Trouble is as the conservatives shift to the right, there is no centre ground from Labour to save the day. Feels like a stalemate.


Why is telling the truth insulting? That is exactly how these disaster capitalists operate. Remember when Boris Johnson spoke of sweeping the bodies away in Libya? - that is exactly what he talking about. Yes thats because they represent the elite and corporate interests.

When Blair adopted a lighter version of tory neoliberalism he shifted the labour party to the right - Corbyn never moved. Corbyn is a bog standard democratic socialist Mille - same as BernIe Sanders over in the States. Same as in Scandinavian countries. I could never vote for a party thats whole ideology was based on greed.. For all Corbyns faults, he isn't cruel and he isnt corrupted by greed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> So whats occuring ? @soickwellcat I haven't watched the news today!


soickwellcat 
Well yesterday and the night before the EU Leaders have been telling things as it was.
Avoided the news today as I am busy trying to fill in a form that is 42 pages long and doing my head in.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> soickwellcat
> Well yesterday and the night before the EU Leaders have been telling things as it was.
> Avoided the news today as I am busy trying to fill in a form that is 42 pages long and doing my head in.


Oh dear .

Good luck with the form !


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> soickwellcat
> .


:Hilarious I put sickwellcat and then added the o and didnt delete the i


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I put sickwellcat and then added the o and didnt delete the i


or add the t :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> or add the t


:Facepalm I need to find my glasses ! Next time I'll just put SWC


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Facepalm I need to find my glasses ! Next time I'll just put SWC


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Popcorn is out as the leave voters watch the remainers do what the leave voters voted for and should have happened 2 years ago. Lead the country into a no deal as Parliament vote against the only deal on offer.





stockwellcat. said:


> Oh some remainers have seen sense then. The 60% that would prefer this deal to no deal.


First you tell us it should always have been no deal and within a couple of posts you claim accepting this deal over no deal is the sensible thing. We are used to you changing tack and allegiance but within a couple of posts??


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> First you tell us it should always have been no deal and within a couple of posts you claim accepting this deal over no deal is the sensible thing. We are used to you changing tack and allegiance but within a couple of posts??


Not changing tack at all. It would be the best thing for remainers not me. I want no deal. But you are handing that to me on a plate blindly. Thank you.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


>


Do you know who were polled? Or have a source so I can have a look?

Edit: Don't worry, I found it on the CAPX site.

The article that reported the above figures also said this ...

What about a second referendum? Support for another public vote seems to have increased, and has so far had majority or plurality support in all post-deal polls that asked about it. YouGov's People's Vote poll found 48 per cent saying support and 34 per cent saying oppose, widening to 51-28 if the deal was voted down by parliament. Its _Times_ poll found 56 per cent preferring a second referendum to the deal when forced to choose.

Sky Data probed support for a three-way (deal, no deal or no Brexit) referendum. Fifty-five per cent said they would support this referendum (of which 44 per cent said they would strongly support it), 35 per cent said they would oppose it (28 per cent strongly).​


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Do you know who were polled? Or have a source so I can have a look?


Yougov. It says in the left hand corner.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Not changing tack at all. It would be the best thing for remainers not me. I want no deal. But you are handing that to me on a plate blindly.


How am I handing you anything? Are you labouring under the misapprehension I'm an MP?


----------



## Elles

We shouldn’t have a second vote, because the people shouldn’t decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


By that logic we shouldn't have had a first vote. Maybe we shouldn't let the stupid little people vote at all.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


Im not sure about this, Boris is my MP and I didn't vote for him . Why should I trust him ?


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


*You forget, the government are there to represent the people. If the people want a second vote*


Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


----------



## Elles

It’s what someone said earlier. We shouldn’t get to vote on this kind of thing because it’s too important... unless we get a second chance and vote remain I suppose, then it’s ok. I’m probably getting a bit far behind in the conversation.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Im not sure about this, Boris is my MP and I didn't vote for him . Why should I trust him ?


Ouch. I think if Boris was my MP I'd have to seriously consider moving.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


The problem is most MPs of all parties have adopted the, "Will of the people" rhetoric. That's why it should go back to the people.

My concern is May getting her deal through parliament. Even if she doesn't she'll probably use her Henry VIII powers to push it through regardless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Im not sure about this, Boris is my MP and I didn't vote for him . Why should I trust him ?


My new MP is Lib Dem. Stockwellcat climbs back into his hole.

But if Boris was my MP I would move.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> We shouldn't have a second vote, because the people shouldn't decide something this important. It should be down to our elected MPs who have all the information and should decide on our behalf.


I would fully agree if this was 2016, but that particular logic has pretty much been invalidated.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The problem is most MPs of all parties have adopted the, "Will of the people" rhetoric. That's why it should go back to the people.
> 
> My concern is May getting her deal through parliament. *Even if she doesn't she'll probably use her Henry VIII powers to push it through regardless.*


I expect you're joking, but she can't do that.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Why is telling the truth insulting? That is exactly how these disaster capitalists operate. Remember when Boris Johnson spoke of sweeping the bodies away in Libya? - that is exactly what he talking about. Yes thats because they represent the elite and corporate interests.
> 
> When Blair adopted a lighter version of tory neoliberalism he shifted the labour party to the right - Corbyn never moved. Corbyn is a bog standard democratic socialist Mille - same as BernIe Sanders over in the States. Same as in Scandinavian countries. I could never vote for a party thats whole ideology was based on greed.. For all Corbyns faults, he isn't cruel and he isnt corrupted by greed.


It was insulting to @Elles the way you phrased it. I don't care if you consider it the truth or not, you basically said she couldn't bother to inform herself.

I also don't think that Corbyn is a bog standard democratic socialist. Surely he's more left of that.

I know someone at work that considers himself a socialist. 'Share the wealth' he says. Until you talk about his actual personal wealth. I think there are a lot of people like that.


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> I know someone at work that considers himself a socialist. 'Share the wealth' he says. Until you talk about his actual personal wealth. I think there are a lot of people like that.


That's what a fair taxation system is for. If you squeeze too hard you take away the incentive to create wealth and it's the creation of personal wealth which is taxed to fund public services.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Ouch. I think if Boris was my MP I'd have to seriously consider moving.





stockwellcat. said:


> My new MP is Lib Dem. Stockwellcat climbs back into his hole.
> 
> But if Boris was my MP I would move.


 I check out Rightmove every day! SWC Where you live looks nice!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I check out Rightmove every day! SWC Where you live looks nice!


Private rent around here £1250 pcm plus fees


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> How am I handing you anything? Are you labouring under the misapprehension I'm an MP?


Not you. Stop taking things person


----------



## stockwellcat.

EU warn UK tonight any extension to delay Brexit will cost the UK £10bn extra.

*Brussels tells Theresa May - delaying Brexit will cost UK £10bn*
EU warned the UK would have to pay about £10bn more to Brussels to win extra time for a smooth exit.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/17/smooth-brexit-could-cost-10bn-extra

So go ahead cost the UK more money remainers by pushing for an extension to article 50 as it will be you costing the UK more money in doing so and making the UK poorer in doing so.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Private rent around here £1250 pcm plus fees


That's steep for outside London. How much are two bed houses to buy ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> That's steep for outside London. How much are two bed houses to buy ?


Mine to buy is £225,000 to buy which is average for my area. Flats start £275,000


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Mine to buy is £225,000 to buy which is average for my area. Flats start £275,000


 I think Id have to move further out !


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> It was insulting to @Elles the way you phrased it. I don't care if you consider it the truth or not, you basically said she couldn't bother to inform herself.
> .


I agree thank you. I was somewhat taken aback. By all means ask if I've read it and what I think of it, but to imply that I'm ignorant and tell me to go away and read a book, is a bit rude.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I expect you're joking, but she can't do that.


Actually, I was being deadly serious.

What I reckon will happen unfortunately is May will succeed in getting her plan passed through Parliament through threats of total chaos if they reject it as the alternative to it, IE: No deal.

MP's will not consider the best option, to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit as most from both sides of the house continue to, "Respect the will of the people" as of June 2016 so they'll see May's plan as the best of both worlds as, after all the "British people will be getting a Brexit they voted after all".....

Brexiters and remainers will be deeply unhappy for the reasons expressed in the thread. Both sides will continue to voice their grievences but will be ignored. " We have respected the will of the people" will be the default answer.

In other words, brexiters will be told, "You got your Brexit so shut up" and vice versa.

May slips way behind in the polls, but as the transition period ends she'll call a GE with the emphasis on Brexiters finally getting the Brexit they voted for.

Fueled by the media with the transition period problems being blamed on the EU as per usual.

May wins a majority, total Brexit happens. Boundary changes gerrymandering the Tories into power indefinitely is passed.....

I have a horrible habit of proving to be right but PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG for once!


----------



## KittenKong

??!??!??!
I know May and co believe they hold all the cards, insisting the EU needs them more than they do.

But still expecting UK MEP's to sit after leaving the EU is a bit much don't you think?!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...it-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

So what do the EU think about all this?



> So far, nothing - none of the screaming headlines back in the UK - is managing to distract the EU from its focus.





> There is also zero - really, truly, honestly, not just saying it - zero-intention or appetite in Europe to start renegotiating the withdrawal deal with the UK.


*Brexit: EU determined to keep calm and carry on with deal*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-46234086


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> It was insulting to @Elles the way you phrased it. I don't care if you consider it the truth or not, you basically said she couldn't bother to inform herself.
> 
> I also don't think that Corbyn is a bog standard democratic socialist. Surely he's more left of that.
> 
> I know someone at work that considers himself a socialist. 'Share the wealth' he says. Until you talk about his actual personal wealth. I think there are a lot of people like that.


I would apologise if I thought it was insulting, but I really don't see anything insulting in saying this


noushka05 said:


> You still dont seem to understand tory idology & how they use crises for their disaster capitalism. I recommend Naomi Kleins book The Shock Doctrine, if you're interested in informing yourself .


I have tried many times to explain the doctrine but clearly failed. And Naomi Kleins book is imo a crucial read for everyone. For this destructive ideology is not only responsible for the destruction of millions of peoples lives but the living planet too. The neoliberals either profit from natural disasters or create a crisis. They then use the crisis to push through measures which would not pass in normal times. Libya, the Iraq war - austerity all example's of disaster capitalism. All rejected by Corbyn  And brexit for the extreme right will bring disaster capitalism to our shores on a scale never seen before. This is why they hate EU regulations.

Well, how is Corbyn more left than that? because the establishment portrays him as a left wing extremist? like they did 'RedEd Miliband? 

Corbyns policies are no more extreme than these >

(Do you think socialism means sharing your personal wealth Mille?  )


----------



## noushka05

Timely tweet from JK Rowling in response to Rees Mogg.

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling 18h18 hours ago
J.K. Rowling Retweeted Jacob Rees-Mogg

Only vulture capitalists and hardcore ideologues want no deal. Both seek profit in the chaos that will severely impact the average person's life. 
It's time to stop chuckling at faux 1920s aristos in top hats. 
They're not charming, they're bloody dangerous.


----------



## noushka05

A hell of a lot of people 'liking' this.

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling Nov 15
#Brexit has collided with reality and now the cowardly bastards who plotted its course scramble for the lifeboats squealing 'it's all her fault! 
We could have magicked the icebergs away!' 
This is a crisis. The country has the right to speak again.
We need a #PeoplesVote.

19,300 retweets

82,251 likes

.........................................................


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I agree thank you. I was somewhat taken aback. By all means ask if I've read it and what I think of it, but to imply that I'm ignorant and tell me to go away and read a book, is a bit rude.


I said I recommended the book if you were interested in informing yourself on the subject - I did not tell you go away and read the book at all. If you are offended by that, then I will apologise. I'm sorry, I never intended any offence. If you would like to read the book I will send you my copy if you would like it? 

Here is on Amazon - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shock-Doct...95&sr=8-1&keywords=shock+doctrine+naomi+klein

Its has to be one of the most important books of our time. I urge everyone to please read it.










........


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jeremy Corbyn on the Sophie Ridge Show.



> another referendum is an option for the future, but not an option for today.


----------



## havoc

Is it Corbyn's call?


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> Is it Corbyn's call?


The leader of the ruling party is the only one that can make the request to Parliament who then in turn agree or disagree. So no it is his call.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> ??!??!??!
> I know May and co believe they hold all the cards, insisting the EU needs them more than they do.
> 
> But still expecting UK MEP's to sit after leaving the EU is a bit much don't you think?!
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...it-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html
> 
> View attachment 376360


I was just about to post this but you beat me to it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well one thing is for sure May is going to go down in history as the worst PM the UK has ever had.










https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...t-could-split-tory-part-constitutional-crisis

MP's in the Conservative Party over the weekend said the no confidence vote can still happen.


----------



## Elles

Wow you really don’t get it do you.

I am quite well informed thank you very much. Stop assuming that I’m ignorant or uninformed and need to read a book. It’s insulting.

I read your book a long time ago. Someone else recommended it and other reading, Chomsky etc, outside of this forum. I think it’s been linked here before too. My brother in law is a leftie councillor, I don’t agree with him on a lot of topics too. These people and corporations do need bringing down, but socialism, or communism isn’t the way to do it imo. and the U.K. staying in the Eu will barely touch on them.

Theresa May and the Eu have come up with a deal that suits them both. The extreme Brexiteers are not getting their way, unless by objecting to anything other than Remain, remain supporters help them bring it down. Their desire for a second referendum, that may not result in a remain majority, could bring about a ‘No deal’. If Remain voters and MPs are prepared to take that risk, then go ahead, it’s fine by me.

If we get another referendum this could go on for years and bring about civil unrest, I think TM and the Eu are trying to avoid it. They both want a deal and TM would rather stay in, but without incurring the wrath of brexiteers. They can’t please both sides and come up with a deal that both like, coming up with one that neither like, considering Remainers only want Remain, is for them the next best thing imo.

The Eu are saying, if you’re not staying in, this is what we have for now, take it or leave it. Taking it could save a lot of people a lot of trouble for the time being and be improved upon when the political climate changes, which it will. Either the Eu will change for the better and more will want to stay in, or it won’t and it will be brought down, with more countries leaving it in my view.

Personally, I think if we do end up with no deal, it won’t be anything like the disaster some are predicting, but the Gibraltar and Ireland problems could get worse if we don’t accept this deal.


----------



## KittenKong

From the Murdoch Times, hardly an anti Brexit source.

Is this their contribution into scaring people into backing May's deal?

Then, who's to say May's deal won't result in this?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...8?shareToken=0ee1cb6dbf904dcaa7adc793c94a63c8


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I just think - sounding like a cracked record - that countries have not worked well for human peace and well-being and that we must move past them and onto the next stage, one that will be another stepping stone towards a single human world. We have to move beyond the tribal distinctions represented by countries to one tribe containing all human beings. We have to recognise our primitive instincts for what they are and leave them behind.


My reponse is the same as all the times times you've said this.  It ain't gonna happen.

Talking of records

Here's an oldie about what could happen the future. !

*In the Year 2525 (Exordium & Terminus)*
Zager & Evans
In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lie
Everything you think, do and say
Is in the pill you took today

In the year 4545
You ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to chew
Nobody's gonna look at you

In the year 5555
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you

In the year 6565
You won't need no husband, won't need no wife
You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
From the bottom of a long glass tube

In the year 7510
If God's a-coming, He oughta make it by then
Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
Guess it's time for the judgment day

In the year 8510
God is gonna shake His mighty head
He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down, and start again

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothing

Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what, he never knew
Now man's reign is through

But through eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday


----------



## Elles

Hmmm, I don’t know why this is being reported across the media. It’s a nothing article. I wonder what they’re up to.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> My reponse is the same as all the times times you've said this.  It ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Talking of records
> 
> Here's an oldie about what could happen the future. !
> 
> *In the Year 2525 (Exordium & Terminus)*
> Zager & Evans
> In the year 2525
> If man is still alive
> If woman can survive
> They may find
> 
> In the year 3535
> Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lie
> Everything you think, do and say
> Is in the pill you took today
> 
> In the year 4545
> You ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
> You won't find a thing to chew
> Nobody's gonna look at you
> 
> In the year 5555
> Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
> Your legs got nothin' to do
> Some machine's doin' that for you
> 
> In the year 6565
> You won't need no husband, won't need no wife
> You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
> From the bottom of a long glass tube
> 
> In the year 7510
> If God's a-coming, He oughta make it by then
> Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
> Guess it's time for the judgment day
> 
> In the year 8510
> God is gonna shake His mighty head
> He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
> Or tear it down, and start again
> 
> In the year 9595
> I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
> He's taken everything this old earth can give
> And he ain't put back nothing
> 
> Now it's been ten thousand years
> Man has cried a billion tears
> For what, he never knew
> Now man's reign is through
> 
> But through eternal night
> The twinkling of starlight
> So very far away
> Maybe it's only yesterday


Some say it's depressing but I really like that one. I have the original 45.

What I like best about it is I won't be around to see 2525....


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Well one thing is for sure May is going to go down in history as the worst PM the UK has ever had.
> 
> View attachment 376374
> 
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...t-could-split-tory-part-constitutional-crisis
> 
> MP's in the Conservative Party over the weekend said the no confidence vote can still happen.


I think its the Tory MPs themselves that are splitting the Con party .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Some say it's depressing but I really like that one. I have the original 45.
> 
> What I like best about it is I won't be around to see 2525....


I don't think this planet will even last that long .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I think its the Tory MPs themselves that are splitting the Con party .


Self inflicted then


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> My reponse is the same as all the times times you've said this.  It ain't gonna happen.


It won't in our lifetimes, but you never know. Paleolithic communities were probably no more than 500 strong, divided into loosely associated groups of about 25 people each. These days the UK has 66 million. The direction of travel has always been towards greater and greater numbers. And thanks to technology the world is definitely getting smaller.



kimthecat said:


> Talking of records
> 
> Here's an oldie about what could happen the future. !
> 
> *In the Year 2525 (Exordium & Terminus)*
> Zager & Evans
> In the year 2525
> If man is still alive
> If woman can survive
> They may find
> 
> In the year 3535
> Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lie
> Everything you think, do and say
> Is in the pill you took today
> 
> In the year 4545
> You ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
> You won't find a thing to chew
> Nobody's gonna look at you
> 
> In the year 5555
> Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
> Your legs got nothin' to do
> Some machine's doin' that for you
> 
> In the year 6565
> You won't need no husband, won't need no wife
> You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
> From the bottom of a long glass tube
> 
> In the year 7510
> If God's a-coming, He oughta make it by then
> Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
> Guess it's time for the judgment day
> 
> In the year 8510
> God is gonna shake His mighty head
> He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
> Or tear it down, and start again
> 
> In the year 9595
> I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
> He's taken everything this old earth can give
> And he ain't put back nothing
> 
> Now it's been ten thousand years
> Man has cried a billion tears
> For what, he never knew
> Now man's reign is through
> 
> But through eternal night
> The twinkling of starlight
> So very far away
> Maybe it's only yesterday





kimthecat said:


> I don't think this planet will even last that long .


Always liked the song, since I was a kid. 

I think the planet will last, though it might look quite beaten up. I wouldn't bet that humans will.


----------



## Arnie83

Meanwhile, the idiots pushing for a No Deal might be taking careful aim at their own feet ...

Moderate Conservatives have warned they will push Britain towards tighter relations with the EU or even turn against Brexit altogether if "purists" in their party tear down Theresa May's draft withdrawal deal.

A string of Tory MPs told _The Independent_ that Eurosceptic colleagues who have begun a sustained push to bring down both Ms May and her Brexit plans, should not be mistaken that a no-deal exit risking the livelihoods of British people is obtainable.

The moderates say the only remaining option if Brexiteers block Ms May's approach will mean being more closely bound to the single market or even revisiting the 2016 referendum result.​


----------



## Arnie83

And from the Telegraph ...

Senior Conservatives are in talks with opposition MPs over a "fallback plan" for Brexit in the belief Theresa May's deal will be voted down in the Commons.

Influential former ministers are drawing up plans to put a Norway-style deal with the EU to a Commons vote in an emergency motion days after an expected defeat in the "meaningful vote" on her plan.

The MPs claim their proposal, which is likely to be fiercely opposed by many Brexiteers, is the only one that could gain the support of a majority of MPs in a bitterly divided Parliament. They believe it would attract the support of up to 70 Labour rebels if they fail in separate attempts to force a second referendum or declare no confidence in the Government.

Some 75 Labour MPs defied Jeremy Corbyn to support a similar move in June. One senior figure involved in the planning, said the option was now a highly credible "plan B".​


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Meanwhile, the idiots pushing for a No Deal might be taking careful aim at their own feet ...
> 
> Moderate Conservatives have warned they will push Britain towards tighter relations with the EU or even turn against Brexit altogether if "purists" in their party tear down Theresa May's draft withdrawal deal.
> 
> A string of Tory MPs told _The Independent_ that Eurosceptic colleagues who have begun a sustained push to bring down both Ms May and her Brexit plans, should not be mistaken that a no-deal exit risking the livelihoods of British people is obtainable.
> 
> The moderates say the only remaining option if Brexiteers block Ms May's approach will mean being more closely bound to the single market or even revisiting the 2016 referendum result.​


It's not just brexiteers though is it, it's 'purist' Remainers too.


----------



## havoc

At any point will they stop jockeying for position and do their bl**dy jobs?


----------



## Elles

I was just thinking the same thing @havoc. It's becoming more and more obvious that none of them actually give a damn what we want, they're all in it to push their own agendas.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Wow you really don't get it do you.
> 
> I am quite well informed thank you very much. Stop assuming that I'm ignorant or uninformed and need to read a book. It's insulting.
> 
> I read your book a long time ago. Someone else recommended it and other reading, Chomsky etc, outside of this forum. I think it's been linked here before too. My brother in law is a leftie councillor, I don't agree with him on a lot of topics too. These people and corporations do need bringing down, but socialism, or communism isn't the way to do it imo. and the U.K. staying in the Eu will barely touch on them.
> 
> Theresa May and the Eu have come up with a deal that suits them both. The extreme Brexiteers are not getting their way, unless by objecting to anything other than Remain, remain supporters help them bring it down. Their desire for a second referendum, that may not result in a remain majority, could bring about a 'No deal'. If Remain voters and MPs are prepared to take that risk, then go ahead, it's fine by me.
> 
> If we get another referendum this could go on for years and bring about civil unrest, I think TM and the Eu are trying to avoid it. They both want a deal and TM would rather stay in, but without incurring the wrath of brexiteers. They can't please both sides and come up with a deal that both like, coming up with one that neither like, considering Remainers only want Remain, is for them the next best thing imo.
> 
> The Eu are saying, if you're not staying in, this is what we have for now, take it or leave it. Taking it could save a lot of people a lot of trouble for the time being and be improved upon when the political climate changes, which it will. Either the Eu will change for the better and more will want to stay in, or it won't and it will be brought down, with more countries leaving it in my view.
> 
> Personally, I think if we do end up with no deal, it won't be anything like the disaster some are predicting, but the Gibraltar and Ireland problems could get worse if we don't accept this deal.


Wow and I'm the rude one.

So you've read the book and you disagree with the Kleins findings? The book is factual, disaster capitalism is real whether you choose to believe or not. We can have our own opinions but we cant have our own facts, Elles.

The tories withdrawal agreement puts our environment,rights and protections at grave risk, its a terrible deal. No deal WILL be a catastrophe. But if you choose to believe otherwise thats your prerogative. You'll be forced to face reality at some point. Either way we are cutting our nose off to spite our face. No wonder the world is laughing at us - we're a joke!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I was just thinking the same thing @havoc. It's becoming more and more obvious that none of them actually give a damn what we want,* they're all in it to push their own agendas*.


They always have, the future of the country doesn't come into it.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Wow and I'm the rude one.
> 
> So you've read the book and you disagree with the Kleins findings? The book is factual, disaster capitalism is real whether you choose to believe or not. We can have our own opinions but we cant have our own facts, Elles.
> 
> The tories withdrawal agreement puts our environment,rights and protections at grave risk, its a terrible deal. No deal WILL be a catastrophe. But if you choose to believe otherwise thats your prerogative. You'll be forced to face reality at some point. Either way we are cutting our nose off to spite our face. No wonder the world is laughing at us - we're a joke!


I didn't say I disagree with her findings either. I don't agree with your politics.


----------



## noushka05

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 2h2 hours ago
David Lammy Retweeted Ridge on Sunday

Theresa May has no right to say we will leave the EU at any cost on 29 March. If her deal does not make it through Parliament, MPs will decide what happens next. We can then give the power back to the public in a #PeoplesVote which offers the option to remain in the EU. #Ridge

If Labour begins actively campaigning for a #PeoplesVote tomorrow, we can provide an alternative to May's deal that brings hope back to this country, we can stand up for jobs, workers rights and the environment, and we can keep the Tories out of power for a generation


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I didn't say I disagree with her findings either. I don't agree with your politics.


What are my politics?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> It's becoming more and more obvious that none of them actually give a damn what we want,


We will end up with what a fair few want - ain't what we need though.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> ??!??!??!
> I know May and co believe they hold all the cards, insisting the EU needs them more than they do.
> 
> But still expecting UK MEP's to sit after leaving the EU is a bit much don't you think?!
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...it-deal-leave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html
> 
> View attachment 376360





Calvine said:


> I was just about to post this but you beat me to it!


#

I noticed this response from actor Chris Addison to Dorries.

_Jokes aside, this is a major problem with our electoral system. Safe seats mean a bin bag with a face on would win in constituencies like Dorries' 
so there's no weeding out of dangerously dim bulbs._
_

..._


----------



## Elles

We’ve been talking politics on this forum for a couple of years now. I would say we want the same thing, but some of our answers to the problems we face are poles apart. Eventually I was going to bite back.

If you’d watched any of the videos I’ve linked from people I admire and whom I would want speaking for me, you’d know that there’s a good chance I have some idea of what’s going on and where I stand on it.


----------



## Elles

I agree, our electoral system stinks and they’ve never asked us what we want, just given us a vote on something that’s no better. I agree with PR which has never been an option put forward for us to consider. The best politics are boring politics. Anything else has extremism and egos leaking into it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's not just brexiteers though is it, it's 'purist' Remainers too.


If the threat from the moderates is to go for "being more closely bound to the single market or even revisiting the 2016 referendum result" then I imagine that will only encourage the purist Remainers rather than dissuade them.

The moderates' concern is the no deal supporters who don't seem to have any concern for the damage their preferred option would do to the country's interests. While some Remainers might be driven by ideology, at least their 'victory' would see an economic boost rather than a downturn.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> We've been talking politics on this forum for a couple of years now. I would say we want the same thing, but some of our answers to the problems we face are poles apart. Eventually I was going to bite back.
> 
> If you'd watched any of the videos I've linked from people I admire and whom I would want speaking for me, you'd know that there's a good chance I have some idea of what's going on and where I stand on it.


Bite back? I've been challenging your opinion, by, where possible, supporting mine with evidence from reputable sources. Most of the time your opinion is just that. It isnt unreasonable to ask someone to support their opinion with references if they refute something. I always try to seek the opinion of those who are trusted and better informed than the man in the street.

The IPCC report says we have less than 12 years to massively change our society, if we are to avert global catastrophe. THIS is what drives my politics. And I do not believe a socialist government is radical enough, but it would be a zillions times better than what we're stuck with.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I don't think this planet will even last that long .


No it won't. Unless we take radical action *right away* we risk the collapse of our civilisation and the environment & ecosystems which provide life. Brexit is a dangerous diversion and it will create the chaos disaster capitalists feed off. I feel so sorry for the younger generation.


----------



## noushka05

Well said.

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 3h3 hours ago
Raab accuses EU of bullying. Whatever happened to "we hold all the cards" and they'll do as we say?

Truth is, our Brexiters tried to play bully, but 27 countries aren't having any of it.


----------



## noushka05

Free movement has brought us 10% of NHS doctors, 7% of nurses, our teachers, scientists, friends, colleagues. 
It's allowed us to live, work and learn abroad. It's made us all richer. 
Oh and jobs, security, the union are still threatened and we have less control.
Thanks, Theresa


----------



## Elles

I was taking to a young man in his 20s yesterday. He lives in the Balkans, I think he said 22km from the Hungarian border, 22km from a border anyway. He’s at university and also learning German. He said that there are no opportunities where he is and his town is now very deserted. All of his friends have left for Germany, France or the U.K. he’s going to Germany because he thinks there’s more opportunity there than anywhere else.

His country isn’t in the Eu.

He’s being given an education and then leaving for somewhere wealthier. Despite his country being denied Eu membership he sees no reason he can’t move there and all his friends already have.


----------



## Elles

The Eu have said no further negotiation, that’s the deal. Why do these moderates (and the 5 not so moderates) think that the Eu will carry on negotiating and deal with them? Were the Eu and the European leaders who said it making it up?

If they weren’t, then rejecting TM’s deal means leaving with no deal at all. Do Remainers want to risk it? Do they really want to risk a second referendum today either?


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> The Eu have said no further negotiation, that's the deal. Why do these moderates (and the 5 not so moderates) think that the Eu will carry on negotiating and deal with them? Were the Eu and the European leaders who said it making it up?
> 
> If they weren't, then rejecting TM's deal means leaving with no deal at all. Do Remainers want to risk it? Do they really want to risk a second referendum today either?


*I think a 2nd referendum would be the best way forward. But NOT as things stand.*


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Bite back? I've been challenging your opinion, by, where possible, supporting mine with evidence from reputable sources. Most of the time your opinion is just that. It isnt unreasonable to ask someone to support their opinion with references if they refute something. I always try to seek the opinion of those who are trusted and better informed than the man in the street.
> 
> The IPCC report says we have less than 12 years to massively change our society, if we are to avert global catastrophe. THIS is what drives my politics. And I do not believe a socialist government is radical enough, but it would be a zillions times better than what we're stuck with.


You didn't ask me to provide evidence of my worthless opinion. You told me to read an influential and controversial book that you agree with and that I've already read.

I have linked articles, video and statements from all kinds of expert and knowledgeable people. One economist and professor I linked was employed as adviser to the Eu. I don't copy paste it all in full here, so if anyone is interested they have to follow the links, but they are there.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I still cannot understand why if May Deal is worse that Remain we will not just call the whole thing off?
Instead of threatening that if we not accept May Deal we will have a disaster of No Deal?

Surely when people voted they did not vote for recession, less money for NHS etc, political and economic crisis?

Plus we always were sovereign country, same as France, Germany or Spain?
EU is a trading bloc and sticking together is giving it much more negotiating power.

So any new deals will possibly be over all worse than those negotiated by EU?

So in long run we will be still worse...


Unless you played against the pound which might have benefitted a few but surely not the majority of Leavers?

Knowing all that it is time to call the Brexit off...


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You didn't ask me to provide evidence of my worthless opinion. You told me to read an influential and controversial book that you agree with and that I've already read.
> 
> I have linked articles, video and statements from all kinds of expert and knowledgeable people. One economist and professor I linked was employed as adviser to the Eu. I don't copy paste it all in full here, so if anyone is interested they have to follow the links, but they are there.


I was talking about the points below when you took umbrage because I corrected the fallacy about Corbyn . I used to assume most people actually wanted to know the truth.



Elles said:


> I see. So I'm too stupid to understand and read all the wrong information. Unlike yourself, you're informed and enlightened I suppose.





noushka05 said:


> Please provide links if you dispute mine


And all I've done is challenged your posts which I disagreed with - liked the ones I didn't. Thats debating for ya.

,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I still cannot understand why if May Deal is worse that Remain we will not just call the whole thing off?
> Instead of threatening that if we not accept May Deal we will have a disaster of No Deal?
> 
> Surely when people voted they did not vote for recession, less money for NHS etc, political and economic crisis?
> 
> Plus we always were sovereign country, same as France, Germany or Spain?
> EU is a trading bloc and sticking together is giving it much more negotiating power.
> 
> So any new deals will possibly be over all worse than those negotiated by EU?
> 
> So in long run we will be still worse...
> 
> Unless you played against the pound which might have benefitted a few but surely not the majority of Leavers?
> 
> Knowing all that it is time to call the Brexit off...


Because we're stupid?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You told me to read an influential and controversial book that you agree with and that I've already read.


No I didnt tell you to read the book. I couldnt have guessed you'd read it as it appeared to me you didnt understand the doctrine. And I only agree with the findings in the book because they are factual. You don't agree with the findings in the book?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I was taking to a young man in his 20s yesterday. He lives in the Balkans, I think he said 22km from the Hungarian border, 22km from a border anyway. He's at university and also learning German. He said that there are no opportunities where he is and his town is now very deserted. All of his friends have left for Germany, France or the U.K. he's going to Germany because he thinks there's more opportunity there than anywhere else.
> 
> His country isn't in the Eu.
> 
> He's being given an education and then leaving for somewhere wealthier. Despite his country being denied Eu membership he sees no reason he can't move there and all his friends already have.


I was talking to my 23 year old granddaughter who's just spent the past two years working/backpacking her way round southern Europe, Asia and Australia. I asked how she would feel if she had to apply for a visa whenever she wished to visit or work in Europe. Her answer was that as she has to apply for visas for many of the countries she wants to go to, one more wouldn't make much difference!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I was talking to my 23 year old granddaughter who's just spent the past two years working/backpacking her way round southern Europe, Asia and Australia. I asked how she would feel if she had to apply for a visa whenever she wished to visit or work in Europe. Her answer was that as she has to apply for visas for many of the countries she wants to go to, one more wouldn't make much difference!


Very good question and reply


----------



## Snoringbear

The only thing I've seem leave leaning politicians do is complain about things and quit their roles.

I'm torn between laughing and crying with this comment from Raab:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-time-to-stand-up-to-eu-bullies-a3992966.html

It was his job to stand up to them but he walked away, like his Leave pal Davis.

This one really provides a new definition of stupidity:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eave-remain-jk-rowling-a8639216.html#comments

The common theme seems to be that all these Leavers have no idea. Then they scurry away like rats off a sinking ship, incapable of providing a workable means of leaving the EU. A bit like Farage, a pointless waste of space who after years of sucking up an MEP wage, despite never turning up, backed out of the recent elections to become an MP and put his points across for Brexit. Now he's crying on the sidelines and threatening a "return" to the front line UK politics despite never being on it.

That leaves us with three choices. 
1. Stay in the EU and have a place shaping policies. 
2. Go with May's deal and have no say but avoid economic suicide.
3. Leave with no desk and commit economic suicide.

Brexit is a bit like buying a house and then getting the survey done and finding it's riddled with constructional faults that will cost a fortune. The remain approach would be to not buy it, the leave approach would be to buy it regardless as you've already made the decision to buy it.


----------



## noushka05

Snoringbear said:


> 1. Stay in the EU and have a place shaping policie


100% this. Imo 2 & 3 are reckless and idiotic.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I don't copy paste it all in full here,.


Well thank goodness for that , I'd have to put you on ignore otherwise 
Its not necessary to do that unless someone requests it , providing a link is enough .


----------



## noushka05

Snoringbear said:


> Brexit is a bit like buying a house and then getting the survey done and finding it's riddled with constructional faults that will cost a fortune. The remain approach would be to not buy it, the leave approach would be to buy it regardless as you've already made the decision to buy it.


I almost missed this. Thats a great analogy I agree with the whole of your initial post SB.


----------



## Arnie83

/\

Me too, except this bit ...


Snoringbear said:


> Leave with no desk


We should definitely take our desk with us


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I was talking to my 23 year old granddaughter who's just spent the past two years working/backpacking her way round southern Europe, Asia and Australia. I asked how she would feel if she had to apply for a visa whenever she wished to visit or work in Europe. Her answer was that as she has to apply for visas for many of the countries she wants to go to, one more wouldn't make much difference!


In Southern Europe (EU member countries) she could stay and look for any sort of work should the fancy take her with no need for an entry or work visa, and then, if she found a job*, could stay permanently should she so choose. She would also be entitled to health care without having to take out separate insurance cover (so long as you have your free EHIC card with you). I'm not too well informed about work visas for Asia and Australia, but without looking them up I bet it's a little more complicated, isn't it?

* This EU regulation not enforced in the UK, but I don't know about the countries she visited.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The Eu have said no further negotiation, that's the deal. Why do these moderates (and the 5 not so moderates) think that the Eu will carry on negotiating and deal with them? Were the Eu and the European leaders who said it making it up?
> 
> If they weren't, then rejecting TM's deal means leaving with no deal at all. Do Remainers want to risk it? Do they really want to risk a second referendum today either?


The third option is to call the whole farce off and remain in the EU on existing terms.

May wouldn't consider that, then neither would Parliament who are still stuck with the, "We must respect the will of the people" mantra they've expressed since June 2016.

Then, as Arnie says, Parliament will probably reject no deal as well.

Which is why, however much Brexiters' and Remainers' detest May's plan, they'll probably vote it through unfortunately.

Once again, I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> In Southern Europe (EU member countries) she could stay and look for any sort of work should the fancy take her with no need for an entry or work visa, and then, if she found a job*, could stay permanently should she so choose. She would also be entitled to health care without having to take out separate insurance cover (so long as you have your free EHIC card with you). I'm not too well informed about work visas for Asia and Australia, but without looking them up I bet it's a little more complicated, isn't it?
> 
> * This EU regulation not enforced in the UK, but I don't know about the countries she visited.


We were talking about this when there seemed to be a good possibility that after Brexit one would need a Shengen visa to visit EU countries.

She worked in Spain as an "au pair" and then as crew on a yacht cruising around the Mediterranean - mainly Greece and Turkey.

I'm not sure what visas she needed for countries like Thailand, Myanmar, or India, but I do know that if you're between 18 and 30 years old it's easy to get a visa for Australia, allowing you to work for a year, although you have to prove that you are taking sufficient funds with you which I think is £3000. My grandson is in Nepal at the moment prior to going to Oz for a year.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> We were talking about this when there seemed to be a good possibility that after Brexit one would need a Shengen visa to visit EU countries.
> 
> She worked in Spain as an "au pair" and then as crew on a yacht cruising around the Mediterranean - mainly Greece and Turkey.
> 
> I'm not sure what visas she needed for countries like Thailand, Myanmar, or India, but I do know that if you're between 18 and 30 years old it's easy to get a visa for Australia, allowing you to work for a year, although you have to prove that you are taking sufficient funds with you which I think is £3000. My grandson is in Nepal at the moment prior to going to Oz for a year.


So if (when) we impose a ban on 'unskilled' workers - which I assume would include au pairs and cruising yacht crew - and if it is reciprocated, that would make the adventure much harder for youngsters like your granddaughter. The visa thing has always seemed to me a fairly trivial inconvenience, but Brexit will stop youngsters coming here and working as, say, bar staff.

That's what seems a pity to me; the freedom to travel around Europe and broaden your mind while paying your way with casual work will be removed by Brexit, unless other countries are a lot more liberal than the UK.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> That's what seems a pity to me; the freedom to travel around Europe and broaden your mind while paying your way with casual work will be removed by Brexit, unless other countries are a lot more liberal than the UK.


And of course if it isn't removed initially it can be at any time in the future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> And of course if it isn't removed initially it can be at any time in the future.


That is the worry... if my kids want to work or study in EU they might have to get another passport... EU will most likely reciprocate - if we ban them they will ban us ... 
They cannot work in UK so we cannot in EU.


----------



## noushka05

I can't argue with this. (David makes a passionate plea to Corbyn- link to video)

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy
This is crunch time. There is no more room for pussyfooting around. The Labour leadership must now listen to members and actively oppose Brexit, or I fear we will be kept from power for a generation.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1064237700969111552

,,


----------



## noushka05

Ooh just spotted this.
*Faisal Islam*‏Verified account @faisalislam 10h10 hours ago
Commenters noticing that the PM focussed on My Brexit or No Brexit... not My Brexit or No Deal. Combine that with Corbyn's softest words yet on referendum (though not embracing it now), Mcdonnell admitting GE "difficult" - weather changing markedly on new vote.

/


----------



## Elles

Yeah have a people’s vote and a hard brexit. UKIP membership is up 15%.

Is it worth the risk? 

And so the manipulation continues. I wondered when we’d get to deal or no Brexit, which is of course what’s been wanted all along. TM will get backing for no Brexit probably. 

Brexiteers will probably then agree to a second referendum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yeah have a people's vote and a hard brexit. UKIP membership is up 15%.
> 
> Is it worth the risk?
> 
> And so the manipulation continues. I wondered when we'd get to deal or no Brexit, which is of course what's been wanted all along. TM will get backing for no Brexit probably.
> 
> Brexiteers will probably then agree to a second referendum.


This time maybe those who did not vote because simply hadn't enough information to decide will vote?
By now we know much better what No Deal Brexit might mean especially for the young.

If someone just doesn't want to know and wants to jump off the cliff shouting out! Out! OUT!!!

Can you still believe BoJo , Moggie or Farage?
Really?

Do we really want to have no say in EU?
If Trump wants to turn his back on Europe then what Macron says makes sense.

Forget Merkel, her era is coming to the end...

Britain is not the only island in Europe.
United we stand a chance against Trump, Putin, China...

I don't want Britain flooded with foreign capital from doubtful sources, corporate moguls sponsor marionette politicians.

This is where new deals will take us.
Free?

Rubbish!

We will be the corporate moguls playground!!!

Aaron Banks, Murdoch, Green.

Pigs will win.

That is No Deal in capsule.


----------



## stockwellcat.

We have to look at this realistically from the EU leaders point of view (no I haven't changed my mind I am just trying to help the remainers understand what is going on), they have spent 19 months in hard negotiations with the UK and have managed to create this withdrawal agreement. Now everyone knew that they wouldn't get everything they wanted as the UK is leaving the EU but the EU have been as generous as they can be in this withdrawal agreement. This withdrawal agreement is not May's agreement as the EU have agreed this is the deal they want. So do you blame them when they say this is a take it or leave it deal and leaving it would mean the only other option on the table, no deal. So because the EU have the withdrawal agreement they want they are not prepared to renegotiate it and have said this and they have stated since Thursday Evening if it is rejected by the UK Parliament it is no deal. So if it is voted down and we get no deal of course leave voters will be happy as it is what was wanted from day one. Why are the Brexitiers going mad in Parliament then I hear you ask? It is because the deal keeps the UK stuck in a customs union with 20xx as the date which could be 2099. This is only one part they are angry over. They are also angry because the deal could be pushed through as May does not have to honour any vote on the withdrawal agreement as the votes in Parliament for the withdrawal agreement have no legality so she can ignore them.

Yes MP's in the Conservative Party can try and oust May with a vote of no confidence but this will not stop Brexit from happening. The EU leaders are now following procedure and the meeting a week today goes ahead to agree on the withdrawal agreement before the withdrawal agreement goes to the EU Leaders Respective Parliaments for ratification. Are they interested in all the screaming and drama in the UK press and the political turmiol in the UK? Nope not one bit. To them the deal is on the table and now they have to follow the procedures they follow.

So what next? Well Corbyn said today a second referendum basically isn't on his agenda in the near future. May has categorically said no to a second referendum and there is no time to start the process of starting a second referendum. What about extending article 50? May has said no to this and the EU leaders have said any extention to Brexit will cost £10bn extra on the agreed £39bn settlement amount for Brexit.

The EU have the deal they want and won't back down on this lightly.

I am sat down with popcorn sitting back and watching no deal happen before my eyes. I have a nice bottle of wine to open when it does happen. Of course leave voters want the withdrawal agreement voting down as we will get what we want. No deal. We will watch the remainers in Parliament deliver it to us.


Whoops I just realised how long my thread is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> We have to look at this realistically from the EU leaders point of view (no I haven't changed my mind I am just trying to help the remainers understand what is going on), they have spent 19 months in hard negotiations with the UK and have managed to create this withdrawal agreement. Now everyone knew that they wouldn't get everything they wanted as the UK is leaving the EU but the EU have been as generous as they can be in this withdrawal agreement. This withdrawal agreement is not May's agreement as the EU have agreed this is the deal they want. So do you blame them when they say this is a take it or leave it deal and leaving it would mean the only other option on the table, no deal. So because the EU have the withdrawal agreement they want they are not prepared to renegotiate it and have said this and they have stated since Thursday Evening if it is rejected by the UK Parliament it is no deal. So if it is voted down and we get no deal of course leave voters will be happy as it is what was wanted from day one. Why are the Brexitiers going mad in Parliament then I hear you ask? It is because the deal keeps the UK stuck in a customs union with 20xx as the date which could be 2099. This is only one part they are angry over. They are also angry because the deal could be pushed through as May does not have to honour any vote on the withdrawal agreement as the votes in Parliament for the withdrawal agreement have no legality so she can ignore them.
> 
> Yes MP's in the Conservative Party can try and oust May with a vote of no confidence but this will not stop Brexit from happening. The EU leaders are now following procedure and the meeting a week today goes ahead to agree on the withdrawal agreement before the withdrawal agreement goes to the EU Leaders Respective Parliaments for ratification. Are they interested in all the screaming and drama in the UK press and the political turmiol in the UK? Nope not one bit. To them the deal is on the table and now they have to follow the procedures they follow.
> 
> So what next? Well Corbyn said today a second referendum basically isn't on his agenda in the near future. May has categorically said no to a second referendum and there is no time to start the process of starting a second referendum. What about extending article 50? May has said no to this and the EU leaders have said any extention to Brexit will cost £10bn extra on the agreed £39bn settlement amount for Brexit.
> 
> The EU have the deal they want and won't back down on this lightly.
> 
> I am sat down with popcorn sitting back and watching no deal happen before my eyes. I have a nice bottle of wine to open when it does happen. Of course leave voters want the withdrawal agreement voting down as we will get what we want. No deal. We will watch the remainers in Parliament deliver it to us.
> 
> Whoops I just realised how long my thread is.


Once you open your wine spare a thought to those who will suffer along their pets as a result of NoDeal recession and pray you will still have a job to afford the vet bills if necessary.

If unemployment doubles and people lose their livelihoods where their pets will go?

The budget is based on a Deal. Remaining will be a bonus.

No Deal will hit NHS, schools, environment funds, charities, animal shelters.
Spare a thought during your celebrations for all those cats and dogs that will find no place in shelter and get put down.

Cats just like your cat.

This is while you enjoy your pop corn .

This is what recessions mean.

I am sorry, but it feels like strange strand of brexomatosis attacked this population.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Once you open your wine spare a thought to those who will suffer along their pets as a result of NoDeal recession and pray you will still have a job to afford the vet bills if necessary.
> 
> If unemployment doubles and people lose their livelihoods where their pets will go?
> 
> The budget is based on a Deal. Remaining will be a bonus.
> 
> No Deal will hit NHS, schools, environment funds, charities, animal shelters.
> Spare a thought during your celebrations for all those cats and dogs that will find no place in shelter and get put down.
> 
> Cats just like your cat.
> 
> This is while you enjoy your pop corn .
> 
> This is what recessions mean.
> 
> I am sorry, but it feels like strange strand of brexomatosis attacked this population.


Love your effort at scaremongering.
I remember during the referendum we was told Armageddon would happen and the 4 horsemen would decend from the skies if we voted leave. Still waiting.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> This time maybe those who did not vote because simply hadn't enough information to decide will vote?
> By now we know much better what No Deal Brexit might mean especially for the young.
> .


You think you do but you don't. (Sorry, Warcraft reference ) Macron is down in popularity, have you seen the latest news from France? Merkel is shortly to step down. Italy has her own problems and Spain hers. Juncker is on his way out. We have no idea what is in the future for Britain, or the Eu, or Europe given the current turmoil.

Much of Gibraltar's money is from large gambling corporations, if you're talking about doubtful and playgrounds lol. They're only leaving because the government cut their tax breaks, which is what they went there for in the first place you must admit. 

People abandon pets for all kinds of spurious reasons, maybe if they didn't there'd be space for those in genuine need. :Rage


----------



## stockwellcat.

@cheekyscrip I love a bit of scarmongering from remainers just before I go to bed. It helps me sleep better because I know it won't happen and it is just scaremongering.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You think you do but you don't. (Sorry, Warcraft reference ) Macron is down in popularity, have you seen the latest news from France? Merkel is shortly to step down. Italy has her own problems and Spain hers. Juncker is on his way out. We have no idea what is in the future for Britain, or the Eu, or Europe given the current turmoil.
> 
> Much of Gibraltar's money is from large gambling corporations, if you're talking about doubtful and playgrounds lol. They're only leaving because the government cut their tax breaks, which is what they went there for in the first place you must admit.
> 
> People abandon pets for all kinds of spurious reasons, maybe if they didn't there'd be space for those in genuine need. :Rage


People abandon pets when they have less money. Simple truth. Not everyone but it happens especially when a hefty vet bills appear. If people have to choose between a dog and internet?
Sad, but true. 
Gibraltar - most employers are the corporations. We have no agriculture and minimal manufacturing. Obviously.
Seen how our playgrounds and tennis/ football pitches are sold for development- offices and luxury homes for corporations addresses?

New schools squashed back to back, their old grounds sold?
Why do you think I am trying to warn?


----------



## Elles

Imo The only way we will stay in the Eu is if there is a second referendum and people vote to remain. UKIP membership is up by 15%, the desire to dump the Eu does not seem to be abating. The deal the Eu negotiated is the only one on the table, unless the Eu changes its mind. I don’t think they will. They have no reason to, do they.

Brexit supporters and MPs would have been happy to leave within weeks of the referendum with no deal. Remain supporters and MPs shouldn’t be so quick to dump the deal that’s being negotiated, I doubt most of them have read it. Only staying in is good enough for them, but there are a lot of hurdles to overcome to manage that and while they’re trying to clear them, ‘no deal’ could have got in front and won the race. If people don’t trust the Eu to negotiate a deal that’s good for Europe, why do they want to stay in and be part of it?

If people will choose the Internet over a family member that’s no reason for others to vote to stay in the Eu. People managed with a lot less in the past, they shouldn’t get a pet if that’s what they think of it. Good grief, the homeless manage to have dogs and take care of them.  There was a family down our way who couldn’t find a pet friendly flat, so they lived in their car until they did. People in the Eu dump their pets. A lot of Brits rehome dogs from rescues in Spain, Cyprus and Romania for example. Friends have done, more than once. One of my friends has 3.


----------



## KittenKong

Gawd, he doesn't give up either does he?

Time to stand down Mr Corbyn, you're looking as silly as the rest of them.

No such thing as a "good Brexit plan".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ive-to-pms-brexit-plan?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Imo The only way we will stay in the Eu is if there is a second referendum and people vote to remain. UKIP membership is up by 15%, the desire to dump the Eu does not seem to be abating. The deal the Eu negotiated is the only one on the table, unless the Eu changes its mind. I don't think they will. They have no reason to, do they.
> 
> Brexit supporters and MPs would have been happy to leave within weeks of the referendum with no deal. Remain supporters and MPs shouldn't be so quick to dump the deal that's being negotiated, I doubt most of them have read it. Only staying in is good enough for them, but there are a lot of hurdles to overcome to manage that and while they're trying to clear them, 'no deal' could have got in front and won the race. If people don't trust the Eu to negotiate a deal that's good for Europe, why do they want to stay in and be part of it?
> 
> If people will choose the Internet over a family member that's no reason for others to vote to stay in the Eu. People managed with a lot less in the past, they shouldn't get a pet if that's what they think of it. Good grief, the homeless manage to have dogs and take care of them.  There was a family down our way who couldn't find a pet friendly flat, so they lived in their car until they did. People in the Eu dump their pets. A lot of Brits rehome dogs from rescues in Spain, Cyprus and Romania for example. Friends have done, more than once. One of my friends has 3.


So are you suggesting pet abandonment will reduce post Brexit?

As it is, after the transition period many UK immigrants may be forced to return to the UK so they'll be a larger number of pets abandoned, especially with complications such as the EU pet passport which might no longer be valid for use in the UK, nor a UK one vice versa if they've bothered to remember about that.

I find this post extraordinary actually. You forget the EU have compromised big time, far too big in my view, considering the red lines May has put up in order to deprive us of our FOM rights. I'm actually disappointed they came to any agreement with May in the first place, then no one can accuse the EU of not listening or trying, whatever May and Rabb say about them being, "bullied".

There's the argument that a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit seeing Corbyn himself is also determined to press ahead with it. I'm inclined to agree with that.

Then for a reminer to accept May's deal is acceptance of the loss of FOM rights, which is why I, for one, would never support it.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

54 bids? You'd have to pay ME quadruple that....


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Gawd, he doesn't give up either does he?
> 
> Time to stand down Mr Corbyn, you're looking as silly as the rest of them.
> 
> No such thing as a "good Brexit plan".
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ive-to-pms-brexit-plan?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> View attachment 376476


And where has he been living for the past two years? Cloud cuckkoo land?

Lord luv a duck - talk about bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well reading this article in the Guardian this morning because I saw it whilst searching Brexit news. Labour MP's plan to vote against the withdrawal agreement even though the withdrawal agreement gives them what they called for.


> The withdrawal agreement includes much that Labour has called for, including a status quo transition; and while they believe some details of the Irish backstop are troubling, it might be hard to object too vehemently if Dublin is content.


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-strategies-to-make-no-deal-brexit-impossible

I am sorry but the Remainer MP's in Parliament are the ones driving this country closer to a no deal. Oh and they won't get to vote on no deal if the EU declare it.

Popcorn anyone?


----------



## stockwellcat.

This chart describes things well.

The referendum is off the table as May said no and Corbyn said no yesterday and a General Election is off the table as well at the moment. Oh and the EU Leaders said there is no appetite to renegotiate the deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

*18.24 18 Nov*

*Transition must end by December 2022 - EU*

Adam Fleming

Brussels reporter









Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
The European Commission has proposed 31 December, 2022 as the ultimate end date for a possible extension to the post-Brexit transition or implementation period, according to a diplomatic note of a meeting between Michel Barnier and EU27 ambassadors in Brussels this afternoon.

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier also said that the UK is still pushing for a Chequers-style free trade area in goods with a common rule-book to be included in the political declaration on the future relationship.

There was a divide between member states that want an ambitious trading relationship with the UK and those who want Britain's access to the single market to be more constrained.

The UK wants to maintain the status quo on internal security, which is also "a problem," ambassadors were told.

The final political declaration could be between 14 and 20 pages long.

Spain raised serious concerns about Gibraltar, which officials fear could grow in the coming days.

Michel Barnier said the political situation in the UK was "volatile."

A diplomat said the message from the EU's Brexit negotiators to the member states was "keep a lid on your concerns for now and we'll deal with them in the negotiations on the future relationship.".

The European Council is also planning to issue conclusions which will go alongside the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration when they are endorsed at the special summit next week.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well reading this article in the Guardian this morning because I saw it whilst searching Brexit news. Labour MP's plan to vote against the withdrawal agreement even though the withdrawal agreement gives them what they called for.
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-strategies-to-make-no-deal-brexit-impossible
> 
> I am sorry but the Remainer MP's in Parliament are the ones driving this country closer to a no deal. Oh and they won't get to vote on no deal if the EU declare it.
> 
> Popcorn anyone?


The withdrawal agreement DOES NOT give labour what it called for. Not when it lowers labour standards and curtails trade union rights, weakens environmental protections and Imposes more stringent limits on state aid than EU membership. These things are fundamental to the labour party no labour MP worth their salt should vote for Mays terrible stitch up. Mine had better bleeding not!

Only people like you have been championing a no deal - so have the balls & the decency to own it if thats what we get! When the NHS is gone & all but the wealthy destroyed by austerity - remember YOU wanted it, not remainers, we were the ones who tried our best to warn you, but you have been impervious to facts, evidence, reason from the very beginning & even now when its blatantly obvious we are going to suffer under either of these two **** options, you still support brexit. You have dismissed everything as 'project fear' or 'scaremongering', reality will find even you shortly.

You can't pin the blame on anyone but those who wanted brexit no matter the cost.

..................................................................................................

.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The withdrawal agreement DOES NOT give labour what it called for. Not when it lowers labour standards and curtails trade union rights, weakens environmental protections and Imposes more stringent limits on state aid than EU membership. These things are fundamental to the labour party no labour MP worth their salt should vote for Mays terrible stitch up. Mine had better bleeding not!
> 
> Only people like you have been championing a no deal - so have the balls & the decency to own it if thats what we get! When the NHS is gone & all but the wealthy destroyed by austerity - remember YOU wanted it, not remainers, we were the ones who tried our best to warn you, but you have been impervious to facts, evidence, reason from the very beginning & even now when its blatantly obvious we are going to suffer under either of these two **** options, you still support brexit. You have dismissed everything as 'project fear' or 'scaremongering', reality will find even you shortly.
> 
> You can't pin the blame on anyone but those who wanted brexit no matter the cost.
> 
> ..................................................................................................
> 
> .
> 
> .


Thank you for your opinion.

I read and have decided not to comment any further to your opinion.


----------



## noushka05

David Lammy Retweeted UK Prime Minister

Meanwhile the charlatans who got us into this mess are nowhere to be seen. Boris Johnson and David Davis resigned, 
Gove refused to take the job, Farage is milking the last of his EU paycheck, and Chris Grayling is busy carving up Kent into a car park.

..................................


----------



## noushka05

Unless we can stop this train wreck we are ALL screwed.

Desmogs Matt Hope >>>>

Get your brain into gear this morning with this long read from @ChloeFarand and myself for @DeSmogUK on how US libertarians and fossil fuel interests are infiltrating the UK's #Brexit debate and pushing for environmental deregulation https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/11/18/matthew-sarah-elliott-uk-power-couple-linking-us-libertarians-and-fossil-fuel-lobbyists-brexit …

The story centres around a power couple in Brexit politics, Matthew and Sarah Elliott. Matthew was chief of Vote Leave and still has fingers in lots of Brexit pies. Sarah is chair of Republicans overseas, and used to work for fossil fuel magnates the Koch brothers.










In the US, the couple have strong ties to the #Kochtopus network and libertarian Trump-funder Robert Mercer. In the UK, they have strong ties to the remnants of the Leave campaign, and a network of groups lobbying for mass deregulation post-Brexit based out of #TuftonStreet










We show how ideology and resources have been exported across the Atlantic. But there's more to this story - it's also about tactics. Matthew Elliott learned his lobbying skills from Grover Norquist, a Washington lobbyist that opposes all tax increases










Matthew Elliott also has interests in using big data to win elections and referendums. He was chief of Vote Leave at the time the campaign communicated with Cambridge Analytica - a Robert Mercer outfit. Elilott has also been involved in data analytics firms in the UK.










Matthew Elliott is also a prominent figure in the Tufton St network pushing climate science denial and a hard Brexit, on which @DeSmogUK regularly reports https://youtu.be/QpK6J-fAOsc (video via @RealMediaGB)

For instance, Elliott founded Taxpayers' Alliance. Last week, Taxpayers' Alliance conceded in @shahmiruk case that it had coordinated with eight other Tufton Street organisations to push a free-market ideology and for a hard Brexit in the media.

But it's not just UK organisations that are working closely together. Another Tufton outfit, the IFT, recently published an 'alternative' post-Brexit US-UK trade deal plan with the Cato Institute - which is funded by the Mercers and Kochs

*Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal*
Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire











https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

Another Tufton big-hitter, the IEA, has close ties to the Atlas network - which receives millions of $ in Koch funding, and counts many Tufton orgs as members.










Atlas is actually listed as a 'related tax-exempt organisation' on the tax return of the IEA's US fundraising arm, the American Friends of the IEA. And the IEA staffs, funds, and runs Atlas' European wing: Epicenter.



















The IEA, lest we forget, was the subject of an @UE sting earlier this year that suggested the org would allow prospective funders to influence its research - including big agri-businesses that want environmental regulations slashed

*A hard Brexit think tank told a potential donor it could influence its research reports in exchange for funding*
The Institute of Economic Affairs offered a potential US agribusiness donor the chance to influence a report on 'green Brexit'

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...ance-to-influence-its-report-on-green-brexit/










Together, this network is pushing a radical "free-market" ideology that would see the UK slash regulations post-Brexit, all in the name of getting free-trade deals with big polluters like the US. Those cuts would include environmental regulations.

In its 'alternative' Brexit plan, IEA analyst Shanker Singham said raising env standards post-Brexit would "lead to "wealth destruction" and "push people into poverty" https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/09/24/hard-brexit-lobbyists-demand-uk-roll-back-environmental-standards-strike-free-trade-deals-us-china-and-india … @openDemocracyUK has more on this tactic https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...w-evidence-of-hard-brexit-svengali-shanker-si

Just last week, @OwenPaterson and @DavidDavisMP - key nodes in the Brexit Tufton St network - were over in the US talking to Trump cronies about what needed to be done to get a US-UK free-trade deal.
https://spectator.us/david-davis-owen-paterson-washington/










And coal baron Matt Ridley, who is an advisor to the climate science denying lobby group in the Tufton network, the GWPF, has also promoted a highly deregulated no-deal scenario in his Times column - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weve-nothing-to-fear-from-a-worldtrade-brexit-tm9hhh8jp

And a lot of the MPs that are part of the ERG, which just published a scathing analysis of the draft #WithdrawalAgreement, also have strong ties to the Tufton St network. The ERG analysis is on Brexit Central, of which Matthew Elliott is Editor-at-Large. https://brexitcentral.com/erg-publish-right-know-case-governments-brexit-deal/
*
So that's the end game - profit before the environment. The Kochs and Mercers have been playing this game a long time.
A game the Elliotts learned to play in the US. And a game a network of UK lobby groups are now trying to win by pushing for a hard Brexit.*


.................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Gawd, he doesn't give up either does he?
> 
> Time to stand down Mr Corbyn, you're looking as silly as the rest of them.
> 
> No such thing as a "good Brexit plan".
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ive-to-pms-brexit-plan?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> View attachment 376476


I've read what he's going to say. It's fanciful nonsense.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I've read what he's going to say. It's fanciful nonsense.


Fanciful nonsense is all we get from anywhere and anyone lately so he's not bucking the trend.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The whole thing is starting to get out of hand and childish these are grown up people playing with our future. I've stopped watching the news we don't buy papers anyway, so our house at the moment is a Brexit free zone. I just come on here to watch the fighting


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> The whole thing is starting to get out of hand and childish these are grown up people playing with our future. I've stop watching the news we don't buy papers anyway, so our house at the moment is a Brexit free zone. I just come on here to watch the fighting


:HilariousBrilliant!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Unless we can stop this train wreck we are ALL screwed.
> 
> Desmogs Matt Hope >>>>
> 
> Get your brain into gear this morning with this long read from @ChloeFarand and myself for @DeSmogUK on how US libertarians and fossil fuel interests are infiltrating the UK's #Brexit debate and pushing for environmental deregulation https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/11/18/matthew-sarah-elliott-uk-power-couple-linking-us-libertarians-and-fossil-fuel-lobbyists-brexit …
> 
> The story centres around a power couple in Brexit politics, Matthew and Sarah Elliott. Matthew was chief of Vote Leave and still has fingers in lots of Brexit pies. Sarah is chair of Republicans overseas, and used to work for fossil fuel magnates the Koch brothers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the US, the couple have strong ties to the #Kochtopus network and libertarian Trump-funder Robert Mercer. In the UK, they have strong ties to the remnants of the Leave campaign, and a network of groups lobbying for mass deregulation post-Brexit based out of #TuftonStreet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We show how ideology and resources have been exported across the Atlantic. But there's more to this story - it's also about tactics. Matthew Elliott learned his lobbying skills from Grover Norquist, a Washington lobbyist that opposes all tax increases
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Elliott also has interests in using big data to win elections and referendums. He was chief of Vote Leave at the time the campaign communicated with Cambridge Analytica - a Robert Mercer outfit. Elilott has also been involved in data analytics firms in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Elliott is also a prominent figure in the Tufton St network pushing climate science denial and a hard Brexit, on which @DeSmogUK regularly reports https://youtu.be/QpK6J-fAOsc (video via @RealMediaGB)
> 
> For instance, Elliott founded Taxpayers' Alliance. Last week, Taxpayers' Alliance conceded in @shahmiruk case that it had coordinated with eight other Tufton Street organisations to push a free-market ideology and for a hard Brexit in the media.
> 
> But it's not just UK organisations that are working closely together. Another Tufton outfit, the IFT, recently published an 'alternative' post-Brexit US-UK trade deal plan with the Cato Institute - which is funded by the Mercers and Kochs
> 
> *Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal*
> Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs
> 
> Another Tufton big-hitter, the IEA, has close ties to the Atlas network - which receives millions of $ in Koch funding, and counts many Tufton orgs as members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atlas is actually listed as a 'related tax-exempt organisation' on the tax return of the IEA's US fundraising arm, the American Friends of the IEA. And the IEA staffs, funds, and runs Atlas' European wing: Epicenter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IEA, lest we forget, was the subject of an @UE sting earlier this year that suggested the org would allow prospective funders to influence its research - including big agri-businesses that want environmental regulations slashed
> 
> *A hard Brexit think tank told a potential donor it could influence its research reports in exchange for funding*
> The Institute of Economic Affairs offered a potential US agribusiness donor the chance to influence a report on 'green Brexit'
> 
> https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...ance-to-influence-its-report-on-green-brexit/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Together, this network is pushing a radical "free-market" ideology that would see the UK slash regulations post-Brexit, all in the name of getting free-trade deals with big polluters like the US. Those cuts would include environmental regulations.
> 
> In its 'alternative' Brexit plan, IEA analyst Shanker Singham said raising env standards post-Brexit would "lead to "wealth destruction" and "push people into poverty" https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/09/24/hard-brexit-lobbyists-demand-uk-roll-back-environmental-standards-strike-free-trade-deals-us-china-and-india … @openDemocracyUK has more on this tactic https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...w-evidence-of-hard-brexit-svengali-shanker-si
> 
> Just last week, @OwenPaterson and @DavidDavisMP - key nodes in the Brexit Tufton St network - were over in the US talking to Trump cronies about what needed to be done to get a US-UK free-trade deal.
> https://spectator.us/david-davis-owen-paterson-washington/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And coal baron Matt Ridley, who is an advisor to the climate science denying lobby group in the Tufton network, the GWPF, has also promoted a highly deregulated no-deal scenario in his Times column - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weve-nothing-to-fear-from-a-worldtrade-brexit-tm9hhh8jp
> 
> And a lot of the MPs that are part of the ERG, which just published a scathing analysis of the draft #WithdrawalAgreement, also have strong ties to the Tufton St network. The ERG analysis is on Brexit Central, of which Matthew Elliott is Editor-at-Large. https://brexitcentral.com/erg-publish-right-know-case-governments-brexit-deal/
> *
> So that's the end game - profit before the environment. The Kochs and Mercers have been playing this game a long time.
> A game the Elliotts learned to play in the US. And a game a network of UK lobby groups are now trying to win by pushing for a hard Brexit.*
> 
> 
> .................................................................................................................................................................


Just another one of your conspiracy theories!










*Groans!*

A few more for you to ponder on!

https://www.theweek.co.uk/conspirac...theories-from-meghan-markle-to-paul-mccartney


----------



## Elles

No I’m not suggesting pet abandonment will reduce after brexit. People are (insert choice word). It’s a complicated issue and there is some thought that rescues enable to a degree. ‘If we don’t like it, we can give it to the rspca’ etc. I’m uncomfortable with that view, but I think it is a factor sometimes. 

However people will still dump pets whether there are rescues or not. It happens in countries where there are few to none. People with money and whose situation hasn’t changed dump pets too. I don’t think anyone is about to change a vote on the off chance that it might make people poorer (they don’t believe it will) and they might have to leave Gibraltar and they might then abandon their pet dog, instead of bringing it with them.

I would say that people who want to leave the Eu don’t believe all this doom and gloom, they want change. I think the the one thing that we can guarantee from brexit is change. The rest is speculation. It’s your own fault. You said the world would collapse the day after if we voted to leave. We did and nothing happened. So why do you expect anyone to believe it now?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Just another one of your conspiracy theories!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Groans!
> 
> rtney


I'm afraid not. That is what actual investigative journalism looks like. Everything is referenced & can be fact checked  But like Trump and his supporters facts are simply dismissed as fake news. This is why both countries are going down the pan because millions of people get their information from the right wing gutter press & libertarian think tanks & propaganda outlets. Critical thinking is dead. But its our children & grandchildren that will end up paying the biggest price for this wilful blindness to facts & evidence.

Here is tad more 'fake news' for you. - 
*New Evidence Emerges of Steve Bannon and Cambridge Analytica's Role in Brexit*

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...annon-and-cambridge-analyticas-role-in-brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...nks-emails-steve-bannon-brexit-campaign-funds

*Emails reveal Arron Banks' links to Steve Bannon in quest for campaign cash*
Businessman sought Trump strategist's help to raise funds for Leave.EU in the US

*







*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Just another one of your conspiracy theories!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Groans!*
> 
> A few more for you to ponder on!
> 
> https://www.theweek.co.uk/conspirac...theories-from-meghan-markle-to-paul-mccartney











Oh I do like a good conspiracy theory.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You said the world would collapse the day after if we voted to leave


Who said the world would collapse the day after we voted leave? Speaking personally, I made my decision to vote remain because I heeded the warnings from people I trusted - experts, green NGOs, Caroline Lucas, environmentalists. And brexit is panning out just as they warned. Its almost as though they had a crystal ball


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 376493
> 
> Oh I do like a good conspiracy theory.


You can say that again!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Brussels will not stand in way of agreement and are preparing to end 45 years of marriage to UK. They are saying the deal will survive in the EU, indicating that they are happy with the deal.










https://www.theguardian.com/politic...prepare-to-end-45-years-of-difficult-marriage


----------



## Elles

Remainers did. They predicted collapse and warned of dire consequences. Instead of focusing on what’s good about the Eu, they told us Britain couldn’t manage on its own. It’s in part why people voted to leave. But that’s past history now. Remainers didn’t learn from their mistake and continue on the same path. If we leave with no deal, Brexiteers will be happy enough and Remain will have been a contributory factor. Telling people they get their facts from the right wing gutter press and predicting doom and gloom, isn’t going to persuade anyone to back a campaign to stay in or have a second vote.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *Who said the world would collapse the day after we voted leave?* Speaking personally, I made my decision to vote remain because I heeded the warnings from people I trusted - experts, green NGOs, Caroline Lucas, environmentalists. And brexit is panning out just as they warned. Its almost as though they had a crystal ball


Not referring to Elles, but those people who ignore the UK's relative economic performance since June 2016 and claim, because we didn't actually enter a recession and see unemployment rocketing, that a No Deal Brexit would not be a disaster for many of the country's poorest are, let us say, 'special'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-the...speech-as-she-awaits-rebellion-tally-11557851


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Remainers did. They predicted collapse and warned of dire consequences. Instead of focusing on what's good about the Eu, they told us Britain couldn't manage on its own. It's in part why people voted to leave. But that's past history now. Remainers didn't learn from their mistake and continue on the same path. If we leave with no deal, Brexiteers will be happy enough and Remain will have been a contributory factor. Telling people they get their facts from the right wing gutter press and predicting doom and gloom, isn't going to persuade anyone to back a campaign to stay in or have a second vote.


You're right there. Those who get their "facts" from the gutter press are hardly going to change stance are they?

The Daily Mail must be very confusing with their change of attitude from hard Brexit supporters to Theresa May deal lovers through a change of editorship. Leave.eu aren't happy about that!

And to suggest Remainers' will be to blame for a no deal is not correct either. The only deal I would support is one that protects my FOM rights such as Norway+CU. That could've been achieved but May wasn't having any of it.

I said myself I'd prefer to see no deal than an inch of credit given to Theresa May while at the same time removing my FOM rights. Doesn't mean I support that outcome, though.

But I'm with those who want to see her ousted whichever side they're on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I said myself I'd prefer to see no deal than an inch of credit given to Theresa May while at the same time removing my FOM rights.


So you support no deal then  as it looks as if May is going nowhere.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> So you support no deal then  as it looks as if May is going nowhere.


I don't support no deal, but I support May's deal even less!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I don't support no deal, but I support May's deal even less!


It's not May's deal for the last time. The EU Leaders have agreed to the deal and are happy with it. May gave into the EU's demands. EU leaders are not wasting time by the way and are pressing ahead with there processes to implement the deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on.

https://infacts.org/dont-fall-for-pms-project-fear/


----------



## Elles

You’re right unemployment isn’t rocketing and we aren’t in a recession. Countries in the Eu have problems, look at Italy. Being in the Eu hasn’t saved the Italians. Things are changing globally. It’s like manufacturers of diesel cars and components blaming brexit for their woes. No, sorry, you make diesel cars and no one wants them, because they are bad for the environment and about to be banned. Call me ‘special’ if you like. Our government is what will make the poor suffer if anything, not brexit.

I suppose that as I don’t believe a no deal brexit will be quite the disaster being predicted, I get my facts from the right wing gutter press and are ‘special’. Any more insults people would like to throw about? Special isn’t a word I’d like to use either. It’s an insult usually used by kids, relating to ‘special needs’ and conditions such as autism, or Down’s syndrome and unacceptable in my view. Not something I’d expect you to say tbh.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It's not May's desl for the last time. The EU Leaders have agreed to the deal and are happy with it. May gave into the EU's demands. EU leaders are not wasting time by the way and are pressing ahead with there processes to implement the deal.


That's nonsense. It's what the EU are prepared to give Theresa May given her red lines and her determination to end our free movement rights.

The EU aren't the xenophobes here. They introduced FOM between member states!

Arguably, May has given in to some of their demands over a 21 month transition period with that exception, so she's got what she wanted rather than what the EU wants.

Quite frankly, I'd preferred if the EU told her to **** off and to close the door on her way out....


----------



## Elles

You seem to forget that people voted to end freedom of movement. Remainers keep moving the goalposts. There will be no visas and people living and working here can stay, anyone moving here during any transition can stay. 

Remainers said they were worried about what would happen to people already here. Now they seem to be admitting that actually that was just a red herring, they want FOM as it is and to stay in the Eu. They aren’t concerned about any Brexit deal, because anything that means leaving the Eu can’t be good enough. They want freedom of movement for themselves, they aren’t bothered about Europeans from outside the U.K. 

Not being able to go to Britain as easily is hardly a hardship for the rest of the Eu. They have another 26 countries to choose from.


----------



## Jesthar

*catches up on thread*

It's going to be another 'I need popcorn' kind of day, isn't it?

*sigh*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like the confidence vote in May is still along way off as only 24 MP's have confirmed they have handed in no confidence letters so far.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> You're right unemployment isn't rocketing and we aren't in a recession. Countries in the Eu have problems, look at Italy. Being in the Eu hasn't saved the Italians. Things are changing globally. It's like manufacturers of diesel cars and components blaming brexit for their woes. No, sorry, you make diesel cars and no one wants them, because they are bad for the environment and about to be banned. Call me 'special' if you like. Our government is what will make the poor suffer if anything, not brexit.
> 
> I suppose that as I don't believe a no deal brexit will be quite the disaster being predicted, I get my facts from the right wing gutter press and are 'special'. Any more insults people would like to throw about? Special isn't a word I'd like to use either. It's an insult usually used by kids, relating to 'special needs' and conditions such as autism, or Down's syndrome and unacceptable in my view. Not something I'd expect you to say tbh.


Can I join you in the naughty corner? Apparently I must also read the gutter press because I don't believe in conspiracy theories????

Do you think if we talk nicely to @stockwellcat he'll keep us supplied with popcorn?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Do you think if we talk nicely to @stockwellcat he'll keep us supplied with popcorn?


There's plenty to go around.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> You're right there. Those who get their "facts" from the gutter press are hardly going to change stance are they?
> 
> The Daily Mail must be very confusing with their change of attitude from hard Brexit supporters to Theresa May deal lovers through a change of editorship. Leave.eu aren't happy about that!
> 
> And to suggest Remainers' will be to blame for a no deal is not correct either. The only deal I would support is one that protects my FOM rights such as Norway+CU. That could've been achieved but May wasn't having any of it.
> 
> I said myself I'd prefer to see no deal than an inch of credit given to Theresa May while at the same time removing my FOM rights. Doesn't mean I support that outcome, though.
> 
> But I'm with those who want to see her ousted whichever side they're on.
> 
> View attachment 376514


It's amusing for Leave.EU to claim that all 17.4 million leave voters support a no confidence vote. So far, less than half of the ERG do so!


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46257168

The Eu say it's its a fair and balanced deal, the CBI back it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You're right unemployment isn't rocketing and we aren't in a recession. Countries in the Eu have problems, look at Italy. Being in the Eu hasn't saved the Italians. Things are changing globally. It's like manufacturers of diesel cars and components blaming brexit for their woes. No, sorry, you make diesel cars and no one wants them, because they are bad for the environment and about to be banned. Call me 'special' if you like. Our government is what will make the poor suffer if anything, not brexit.
> 
> I suppose that as I don't believe a no deal brexit will be quite the disaster being predicted, I get my facts from the right wing gutter press and are 'special'. Any more insults people would like to throw about? Special isn't a word I'd like to use either. It's an insult usually used by kids, relating to 'special needs' and conditions such as autism, or Down's syndrome and unacceptable in my view. Not something I'd expect you to say tbh.


I assume that's in answer to my post. I stated specifically that it was *not* directed at you, because I didn't think you were one of those who would deny that the Brexit vote adversely affected the economy. Yes government policies may well make the poor suffer. A No Deal Brexit definitely will.

As for the word 'special' I most certainly don't use it with any link in mind to autism or Down's syndrome, and am appalled that anyone might think I would. I use it because it was a favourite of Martin Crane on Frasier, the US sitcom spin-off from Cheers, who used it to refer to his sons, both of whom were professional psychiatrists, to describe their peculiar foibles. I use it euphemistically rather than employing a more explicit description, though perhaps in future I should be more direct.

If you feel vicariously insulted, and don't like my choice of euphemism, then of course I apologise, though not through a feeling of guilt.

It's a shame, because you seem knowledgeable and sensible, and I've always enjoyed our interactions. It just shows how the written word can often be received very differently from how it was intended, though, so ...


----------



## Elles

Today the word is used as an insult to refer to 'special needs', especially in the context of implying someone is ignorant or stupid, because they don't agree with a point of view. It's pretty much replaced the R word.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=special

And I don't think in the context of your post you meant it as a compliment, or term of endearment.

ETA: if you didn't realise, then hopefully the link shows you what others probably mean if they call you 'special' and it's not as a compliment.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Elles

Ps no, to be fair, I didn't personally feel insulted, I was just a bit shocked that you'd use the expression to describe anyone at all. If some others on the forum said it, I wouldn't be remotely surprised, but when you did, I nearly fell off my chair. :Hilarious

@Arnie83 of course.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You seem to forget that people voted to end freedom of movement. Remainers keep moving the goalposts. There will be no visas and people living and working here can stay, anyone moving here during any transition can stay.
> 
> Remainers said they were worried about what would happen to people already here. Now they seem to be admitting that actually that was just a red herring, they want FOM as it is and to stay in the Eu. They aren't concerned about any Brexit deal, because anything that means leaving the Eu can't be good enough. They want freedom of movement for themselves, they aren't bothered about Europeans from outside the U.K.
> 
> Not being able to go to Britain as easily is hardly a hardship for the rest of the Eu. They have another 26 countries to choose from.


Yes indeed, people did vote to end free movement, but many believing being British was a special case this would not apply to them!


----------



## stockwellcat.

*PM applauded for looking beyond Brexit in CBI speech*
https://news.sky.com/story/pm-applauded-for-looking-beyond-brexit-in-cbi-speech-11558061


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Today the word is used as an insult to refer to 'special needs', especially in the context of implying someone is ignorant or stupid, because they don't agree with a point of view. It's pretty much replaced the R word.
> 
> And I don't think in the context of your post you meant it as a compliment, or term of endearment.
> 
> ETA: if you didn't realise, then hopefully the link shows you what others probably mean if they call you 'special' and it's not as a compliment.


Wonder where that leaves our 'special' relationship with the US?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Wonder where that leaves our 'special' relationship with the US?


Hehe.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed, people did vote to end free movement, but many believing being British was a special case this would not apply to them!


Well now they know. Do you think a nationalist Brit who only goes on holiday where they can get fish and chips with their lager, actually care about being able to easily travel to and across Europe? I think you're giving them more credit than they deserve.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Well now they know. Do you think a nationalist Brit who only goes on holiday where they can get fish and chips with their lager, actually care about being able to easily travel to and across Europe? I think you're giving them more credit than they deserve.


Actually, someone on my FB feed said only last week that they'd just had a conversation with their neighbours who are still planning on retiring to Spain. Asked if they were worried the end of FOM would hinder those plans, they received the reply of 'Why would it? That only applies to people coming in to the UK, not us..."

*sigh*


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Actually, someone on my FB feed said only last week that they'd just had a conversation with their neighbours who are still planning on retiring to Spain. Asked if they were worried the end of FOM would hinder those plans, they received the reply of 'Why would it? That only applies to people coming in to the UK, not us..."
> 
> *sigh*


Lol. It's not even going to apply to people coming to the U.K. If you have enough money you can go wherever you like. Except maybe North Korea. I wonder if the neighbours of the person on Facebook voted leave or remain.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Lol. It's not even going to apply to people coming to the U.K. If you have enough money you can go wherever you like. Except maybe North Korea. I wonder if the neighbours of the person on Facebook voted leave or remain.


Very ardent Brexiteers, apparently. Not so passionate in the logic department it would seem


----------



## Elles

Well, I suppose it’s proof that the Eu and Europe are thought of as separate entities. You can be an ardent Brexiteer wanting to leave the Eu and maybe even bring about its downfall, without hating Europe and/or Spain.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> The whole thing is starting to get out of hand and childish these are grown up people playing with our future. I've stopped watching the news we don't buy papers anyway, so our house at the moment is a Brexit free zone. I just come on here to watch the fighting


:Hilarious 
Serious times though , Cam not having a plan . Arrogant . I think all sides will agree it's a real mess.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1542641441


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1542641441
> 
> View attachment 376567


Well kk the amount of votes needed to get the agreeement through is 20 countries out of the remaining 27. So Spain can sound off as much as they want. If it gets voted through there will be nothing they can do.


----------



## havoc

Maybe not as much fun as watching individuals getting snippy with each other - this article does include details of what a uniquely preferential position we held (note the past tense) within the EU so what we've chosen to give up. Obviously I understand passionate brexiteers will know all this and have taken it into account - just thought the moderates might be interested 
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/brexit-big-decision-didn-t-090058383.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well kk the amount of votes needed to get the agreeement through is 20 countries out of the remaining 27. So Spain can sound off as much as they want. If it gets voted through there will be nothing they can do.


Perhaps, but there's still the issue of Argentina, the Falklands and the WTO.

I wonder if the government thought about these obstacles when they held the referendum?

It was all going to be so easy wasn't it....


----------



## Elles

So we had sovereignty, but only if the Eu backs us up. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Well kk the amount of votes needed to get the agreeement through is 20 countries out of the remaining 27. So Spain can sound off as much as they want. If it gets voted through there will be nothing they can do.


https://theconversation.com/brexit-...withdrawal-and-future-trade-agreements-107127


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://theconversation.com/brexit-...withdrawal-and-future-trade-agreements-107127


Covers what I said to kk. Spot on


----------



## stockwellcat.

May's well trained puppy on the opposite benches has refused to declare if he will extend article 50 to Lewis Goodall a reporter for Sky News.










Oh well this looks like it is heading in one direction.


----------



## stockwellcat.

And just yesterday he ruled this out saying a referendum was for the future.

I wouldn't trust him at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

These MP's need to go back to school and learn how to add up. This is the current list of MP's that have sign a letter of no confidence and it is nowhere near what they said it was at last night. There is only 24 letters.


















I seriously worry now as one of these people could become the new Chancellor if they get to win a confidence vote against May and they cannot do simple maths.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> Maybe not as much fun as watching individuals getting snippy with each other - this article does include details of what a uniquely preferential position we held (note the past tense) within the EU so what we've chosen to give up. Obviously I understand passionate brexiteers will know all this and have taken it into account - just thought the moderates might be interested
> https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/brexit-big-decision-didn-t-090058383.html


Wow, that journalist only thinks the under 25s have a future. Bit harsh.


----------



## kimthecat

On the One Show tonight . Humberside ports receive mostly containers and have lots of space to store them so they feel they will be able to cope with Brexit delays better than the southern ports who handle lorries.

@stockwellcat. ( see, got it right this time !  )

Corbyn, what happened to this man famous for his principles ! Sounds like bribery about a second referendum not being ruled out, bribery didn't work the first time either with the GE.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 376580
> 
> 
> These MP's need to go back to school and learn how to add up. This is the current list of MP's that have sign a letter of no confidence and it is nowhere near what they said it was at last night. There is only 24 letters.
> 
> View attachment 376581
> 
> View attachment 376582
> 
> 
> I seriously worry now as one of these people could become the new Chancellor if they get to win a confidence vote against May and they cannot do simple maths.


 I don't believe MPs have to publicly admit st this stage that they have sent a letter in and that the list of names in your post just represents those who have admitted it publicly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> I don't believe MPs have to publicly admit st this stage that they have sent a letter in and that the list of names in your post just represents those who have admitted it publicly.


Graham Brady is being very quiet if that is the case which indicates there isn't enough signatures. BTW he is the chief of the 1922 committee. He did say this morning he would announce straight away if they had enough signatures.


----------



## Elles

I cant keep up with Corbyn. I gather he doesn’t want a second referendum, thinks brexit can be better for everyone and that the Eu will negotiate a new deal at the 11th hour, because the Lisbon treaty was changed. He wants us to pay for another General Election now.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> Graham Brady is being very quiet if that is the case which indicates there isn't enough signatures. BTW he is the chief of the 1922 committee. He did say this morning he would announce straight away if they had enough signatures.


Oh yeah he will be shouting from the rooftops I'm sure once the number is met, we could be only a few letters from that point now, but then I am getting a case of deja vu with this...


----------



## stockwellcat.

stuaz said:


> Oh yeah he will be shouting from the rooftops I'm sure once the number is met, we could be only a few letters from that point now, but then I am getting a case of deja vu with this...


He accused them of lying last night. I will let you into a secret Graham Brady is the only one that knows how many letters have been received being leader of the 1922 committee.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Graham Brady is being very quiet if that is the case which indicates there isn't enough signatures. BTW he is the chief of the 1922 committee. He did say this morning he would announce straight away if they had enough signatures.


I've always wondered what is meant by "1922". This group have always appeared to been to the far right of the Tory party which is probably why they keep bailing May out.

Perhaps they're stuck in 1922?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I've always wondered what is meant by "1922". This group have always appeared to been to the far right of the Tory party which is probably why they keep bailing May out.
> 
> Perhaps they're stuck in 1922?


About the 1922 Committee...


> The 1922 Committee, also known as "the 22", is a committee of all backbench Conservative MPs that meets weekly when the Commons is sitting. Its chair, usually a senior MP, is elected by committee members and has considerable influence within the Parliamentary Party.
> 
> The 1922 Committee takes its name from a meeting of Conservative MPs in October 1922 which led to the end of the party's coalition government with the Liberals.


https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/1922-committee-the-22/

I won't waste my breathe arguing with you. Everything is far right to you if you don't agree or understand it.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> He accused them of lying last night. I will let you into a secret Graham Brady is the only one that knows how many letters have been received being leader of the 1922 committee.


I am aware of how the process works thanks....


----------



## havoc

MilleD said:


> Wow, that journalist only thinks the under 25s have a future. Bit harsh


It doesn't say that but if you have to find something nasty to say I guess it's an interpretation.


----------



## MilleD

havoc said:


> It doesn't say that but if you have to find something nasty to say I guess it's an interpretation.


It does say that.

What else do you want people to say. I'm actually amazed that anyone has the balls to say anything on this thread that doesn't conform with the majority's view on here.

All they get told is they read the Sun, only voted how they did because of a Facebook quiz and are particularly stupid, racist and hard right extremist.

And push, push, push until people change their minds and agree what is being forced on them.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> All they get told is they read the Sun, only voted how they did because of a Facebook quiz


While linking to a news paper or quoting a celeb etc on FB or Twitter


----------



## Britt

Sorry for those who support Mrs May but I think she should be replaced .... But who am I to tell what's better for Great Britain? After all I'm Belgian :Cat


----------



## stockwellcat.

Britt said:


> Sorry for those who support Mrs May but I think she should be replaced .... But who am I to tell what's better for Great Britain? After all I'm Belgian :Cat


So who then do you think is fit enough to run the UK? Please don't say Corbyn.


----------



## KittenKong

Couldn't agree more:


----------



## Britt

stockwellcat. said:


> So who then do you think is fit enough to run the UK? Please don't say Corbyn.


Hmmmm Sadiq Khan? Not Boris Johnson either I guess .... Lemme think about it and I might come up with a better candidate tomorrow.....


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Couldn't agree more:
> View attachment 376598
> View attachment 376599


Brilliant. "Baron" Adonis. Architect of the academies programmes in schools where they are effectively privatised.

Cherry picking soundbites much? Thought he would be the equivalent of lucifer.


----------



## rona

Britt said:


> Hmmmm Sadiq Khan? Not Boris Johnson either I guess .... Lemme think about it and I might come up with a better candidate tomorrow.....


The man who has increased his office spending by 60% ( that's 60% more than Boris) and is more worried about his own image than the people he is supposed to be representing
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/sadiq-khan-is-a-lousy-london-mayor-why-hasnt-anyone-noticed/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Britt said:


> Hmmmm Sadiq Khan? Not Boris Johnson either I guess .... Lemme think about it and I might come up with a better candidate tomorrow.....


Sadiq Khan. Me thinks not. People want him out as Mayor of London in London.


----------



## Elles

How is it racist, or facist saying Eu nationals will no longer be prioritised over people from India or Australia? Surely it’s more racist saying they will be.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Couldn't agree more:
> View attachment 376598


He should know better. Youngsters will still be able to study, train, work and live in other European Countries like they can in any country around the world and will continue to do so. They will still have the freedom to travel.


> View attachment 376599


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> How is it racist, or facist saying Eu nationals will no longer be prioritised over people from India or Australia? Surely it's more racist saying they will be.


Because apparently Europeans are the better race. Maybe Hitler got his way after all?


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44041568


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Brilliant. "Baron" Adonis. Architect of the academies programmes in schools where they are effectively privatised.
> 
> Cherry picking soundbites much? Thought he would be the equivalent of lucifer.


At the present time politics and past history should be put aside in much the same way I would praise any tory who stands against Theresa May and backs a PV, as much as I personally detest the Tory party and everything it stands for.

It's falling for the, "Don't listen to Blair because of Iraq" or Clegg/Cable over the coalition.

Then, oh yes, rumour has it at least one Lib Dem MP supports May's plan.....


----------



## Elles

So why don’t you like Theresa May?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> At the present time politics and past history should be put aside in much the same way I would praise any tory who stands against Theresa May and backs a PV, as much as I personally detest the Tory party and everything it stands for.
> 
> It's falling for the, "Don't listen to Blair because of Iraq" or Clegg/Cable over the coalition.
> 
> Then, oh yes, rumour has it at least one Lib Dem MP supports May's plan.....


Really? You sound like the least likely person ever to put aside politics and past history.

Unless it agrees with your agenda of course.

Your spite and bile is pretty unsurpassed as far as I can tell. I'm just surprised you seem to know Theresa May personally.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So why don't you like Theresa May?


I think I've answered that question on more than one occasion!



MilleD said:


> Really? You sound like the least likely person ever to put aside politics and past history.
> 
> Unless it agrees with your agenda of course.
> 
> Your spite and bile is pretty unsurpassed as far as I can tell. I'm just surprised you seem to know Theresa May personally.


That's where you are wrong.

For all their faults I admire Sir John Major for his work towards the NI peace process, Tony Blair for a lot of things including finalising the NI peace process, yet acknowledging Major's contribution, thus not taking all the credit for it.

And even David Cameron for supporting Gay marriage against much opposition from within his own party.

The sad thing about Brexit is it seeks to undo all the good work done over the past 25 years, let alone the forced withdrawal of my FOM rights.

"Spite and bile"? Really? However hard it may be I have tried to keep things civil.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> "Spite and bile"? Really? However hard it may be I have tried to keep things civil.


You have got to be joking? Have you read the things you wrote about her?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> You have got to be joking? Have you read the things you wrote about her?


You took the words out of my mouth!


----------



## Elles

You just said politics and past history should be put aside. The reason you don’t like Theresa May and would rather accept no deal than one with her name on it, is her politics and past history isn’t it?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Tony Blair for a lot of things including finalising the NI peace process,


But it wasn't him was it? He just took the credit after Mo Mowlam had done all the work, but then, he didn't seem to like her popularity


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You have got to be joking? Have you read the things you wrote about her?


I know many of you will jump to her defence at any given opportunity as I might do towards Tony Blair. There's been a damn sight more nasty things written about him on this forum than May, even though the latter was one of many who voted in favour of the Bush led Iraq War!

Perhaps you can enlighten us in the good Theresa May has done during her time as HS and as PM?

Seeing many brexiters here don't support her Brexit plan I doubt it'll be very much unless they believe the, "Go home or face arrest" vans and the Windrush scandal were good things.....

I couldn't believe anyone could suggest I should support May's Brexit plan. Why should I, for one, accept the loss of my FOM rights?

I now wonder if this was a deliberate intention to wind me up?!



Elles said:


> You just said politics and past history should be put aside. The reason you don't like Theresa May and would rather accept no deal than one with her name on it, is her politics and past history isn't it?


I detested May for the reasons given above and her present politics. People here may argue she's got a good deal which still ends my FOM rights and now her attack on EU citizens she accuses of been given "preferential" treatment.


----------



## Elles

She said once we brexit, Eu citizens will no longer get priority. That’s to be expected if we leave the Eu, unless it’s part of a deal, same thing vice-versa. Any PM who is going ahead with leaving the Eu as voted for in the referendum, will make choices you don’t agree with, simply because you don’t agree with leaving the Eu. There’s no need to make it personal.

She hasn’t and isn’t removing your FOM rights, or attacking Eu citizens. She and the Eu have negotiated a deal ref brexit as would be the remit of any British PM today.

As you don’t want to look at past history, her record as Home Secretary has nothing to do with it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Why watch TV this thread is more interesting.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> She said once we brexit, Eu citizens will no longer get priority. That's to be expected if we leave the Eu, unless it's part of a deal, same thing vice-versa. Any PM who is going ahead with leaving the Eu as voted for in the referendum, will make choices you don't agree with, simply because you don't agree with leaving the Eu. There's no need to make it personal.
> 
> She hasn't and isn't removing your FOM rights, or attacking Eu citizens. She and the Eu have negotiated a deal ref brexit as would be the remit of any British PM today.
> 
> As you don't want to look at past history, her record as Home Secretary has nothing to do with it.


Then why are many Brexiters speaking out against her plan?Explain that, or have they all now agreed to her plan?

I suggest you look at any pro Brexit FB page!


----------



## Elles

Some Pro brexiteers don’t like it because it’s not a brexit that breaks all ties with the Eu. Many would prefer to leave with no deal at all. They don’t want the Eu to be able to negotiate a deal they like with our PM. Just as the deal is no good to people who will only accept staying in, it’s no good to people want a no deal brexit. At least I would guess that’s the reason.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> She hasn't and isn't removing your FOM rights, or attacking Eu citizens. She and the Eu have negotiated a deal ref brexit as would be the remit of any British PM today.


May said herself she was ending free movement though didn't she. Are you suggesting she wasn't telling the truth?!

A more reasonable PM would've aimed for Norway+CU. That would at least have protected my FOM rights.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> May said herself she was ending free movement though didn't she. Are you suggesting she wasn't telling the truth?!
> 
> A more reasonable PM would've aimed for Norway+CU. That would at least have protected my FOM rights.


People voted to end freedom of movement. The Eu and TM have come up with a deal. It's been said a number of times by people more expert than I that we can't have a Norway deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> How is it racist, or facist saying Eu nationals will no longer be prioritised over people from India or Australia? Surely it's more racist saying they will be.


I see your point, but seeing how May treated the Windrush generation this gives the impression she'll be hostile towards most immigrants, adding those from the EU, who she cannot touch at the moment, to her beloved, "Reduce immigration to the tens of thousands" targets.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> People voted to end freedom of movement. The Eu and TM have come up with a deal. It's been said a number of times by people more expert than I that we can't have a Norway deal.


Again, not many understand FOM works both ways.

They'll of course be some who have no interest in travelling abroad who may have voted for it.

If May had been reasonable from the Norway+CU could gave been achieved.

Now, I think enough's been said.

Let's wait and see if Parliament back her plan or not.

Good night!


----------



## Elles

Fortunately Theresa May won’t be PM forever. Be interesting to see what the next does with it. Good night to you too.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Why watch TV this thread is more interesting


If you find gang warfare interesting.


----------



## Elles

Gang warfare? Lol. We’re having a reasonable debate, not getting the knives out.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Remainers did. They predicted collapse and warned of dire consequences. Instead of focusing on what's good about the Eu, they told us Britain couldn't manage on its own. It's in part why people voted to leave. But that's past history now. Remainers didn't learn from their mistake and continue on the same path. If we leave with no deal, Brexiteers will be happy enough and Remain will have been a contributory factor. Telling people they get their facts from the right wing gutter press and predicting doom and gloom, isn't going to persuade anyone to back a campaign to stay in or have a second vote.


The key _progressive_ remainers predictions were spot on! Leave side OR remain - I NEVER trust a tory. And I personally don't know anyone on 'the left' who does.

These are a few of my pre - ref tweets.
noushka05, May 4, 2016
_Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU._

_noushka05, May 6, 2016
Most of the talk coming from the brexit camp has been about 'deregulating' & cutting red tape. Like its a good thing!I find that terrifying. These regulations protect us, our environment & animals. This is what the EU has done for us.

noushka05, May 24, 2016
Sorry from your post I assumed you might be interested in what was best for nature. Tory sell off of social housing has created the shortage & Cameron isnt building more social housing. The majority of EU migrants live in private rented accomodation - so migrants are once again being used to scaremonger by those who care nothing about our environment. http://www.housing-rights.info/renting-from-a-private-landlord.php_
noushka05, May 24, 2016


noushka05 said:


> Does anyone understand how important EU directives are in the protection of our environment?


_

Please don't fall for DM scaremongering @Honeys mum. The tories are the greatest threat to our countryside, NOT migrants & NOT the EU. If the countryside & green issues are a priority of yours then please listen to those who genuinely care about & fight for our natural world - the Green NGOs & the Green Party.

http://mollymep.org.uk/2016/05/23/leaving-eu-threatens-iconic-conservation-sites-warns-mep/

https://www.foe.co.uk/blog/what-has-eu-ever-done-us

Former Environment minister Lord Deben hits the nail on the head_.










noushka05, Jun 4, 2016
Caroline Lucas has done an excellent article on brexit & the young.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-young-p...ons-let-britain-sleepwalk-into-brexit-1548191

*
EU: Young people must not sit by as older generations let Britain sleepwalk into Brexit

*

And our environment isn't under threat because of the EU. This is all due to ideological tory policies
_MollySmith said: ↑
And here's Patrick Stewart on what happened before 1970s and why that matters too_.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...war-europe-unite-reject-isolationism-leave-eu
Great article. Once out of the EU protection for workers, food standards protection, pollution control etc will all go.
I've been looking at the opinions of the NGOs, environmentalists, the Trade Unions, the medical professionals, independent economistes & well respected individuals, Molly.

_noushka05, Jun 22, 2016
Like the environment, the tories record on animal welfare issues is dire. I honestly don't understand how any animal lover could ever consider voting for them.

Philip Lymbery of CIWF sent me this in a twe_et.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/brexit-through-the-eyes-of-farm-animals
*BREXIT THROUGH THE EYES OF FARM ANIMALS*



Magyarmum said:


> Can I join you in the naughty corner? Apparently I must also read the gutter press because I don't believe in conspiracy theories????
> 
> Do you think if we talk nicely to @stockwellcat he'll keep us supplied with popcorn?


No its because you discount FACTS as conspiracy theories. You unquestioningly accept information from dubious sources yet dismiss outright, information based on solid, _irrefutable_ evidence as a conspiracy theory.

And, people, by doing so are putting not only OUR democracy in grave danger & the stability of of other democracies - but the very future of our living planet.

When something sounds like conspiracy theory because it is so unbelievably sinister - it doesnt always mean it is. Always, always check the source!

It was revealed *IN COURT* that the 'Nine Entities' around the dodgy Tax Payer's Alliance and Matthew Elliott, director the official Leave Campaign, are a joint enterprise, funded by dark money.


----------



## noushka05

What a truly horrible country we've become. I too would rather embrace our friends & neighbours than spit in their faces!
_
(Slovak by birth, British by choice)
How disgusting is Mrs May's EU citizen bashing?! Some of us dedicated about best years to this country and this is what is our reward. I so wish I never came to the UK._

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 21h21 hours ago
Stopping EU citizens 'jumping the queue' - that the case for Brexit has been reduced to such a miserable and self defeating bottom line is depressing in the extreme. Let's lift our sights higher than this.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more offensive 'jump the queue' is as a description of a reciprocal right of free movement. Really disgraceful.

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified account @guyverhofstadt 14h14 hours ago
Guy Verhofstadt Retweeted The Guardian

EU citizens living, working, contributing to UK communities didn't "jump the queue" & neither did UK nationals in Europe. They were exercising rights which provided freedom & opportunities. We will fight to ensure these continue in the future, especially after any transition


----------



## noushka05

LOL

*Michael Deacon*‏Verified account @MichaelPDeacon 12h12 hours ago
Latest news on the Dolts' Revolt https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/19/backbench-brexiteers-going-topple-theresa-may-went-wrong/ …


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> If you find gang warfare interesting.


No gang war fare. The thread just got interesting before I went to bed. So I had some popcorn.

Remainers are just as bad ganging up on leavers when leavers don't see their point.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 376642
> View attachment 376643


EU workers do jump the queue some what as another worker from a country outside the EU is subjected to getting visa's, immigration interviews and don't have the freedom of just walking into a country and settling there like European Citizens do. The whole immigration process is unfair. Why should European citizens have the unfair advantage?

The comments made by May where not xenophobic or racist they were true.


----------



## noushka05

*Our Future, Our Choice*‏Verified account @OFOCBrexit 15h15 hours ago
READ: @LeftFootFwd on the hundreds of NI students walking out of class today in protest of the Brexit deal https://leftfootforward.org/2018/11/irish-students-are-protesting-mays-dodgy-deal-today-walking-out-of-class-for-a-peoples-vote/ …


----------



## noushka05

What a vile woman May is.

*Prof Tanja Bueltmann*‏ @cliodiaspora 13h13 hours ago
.@theresa_may Your speech @CBItweets calling people like me who have committed their lives to the UK "*queue* jumpers" is despicable. With your words you brought the matchstick to ignite the pyres of hate built against us *EU* citizens. My latest: 
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...witter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am having a Brexit break and going to other parts in the forum (

I am sick of all the hyped up pages of hatred towards the Government and May, the rubbish about people being accused of being xenophobic or racist when they aren't being racist or xenophobic. It hurts my eyes reading the same stuff day in and day out some of which when reading it sounds that you are doing it to be annoying. No one knows what it will be like after Brexit, the EU withdrawal agreement gives us some insite though if you can be bothered reading the whole of the 585 document. Remainers got alot of what they asked for like a customs union etc. I just feel for me at the moment I need to pull away from this thread as it is getting silly.

I will watch or read the news if I want to know what is going on.

Off I go for my Brexit Break.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> EU workers do jump the queue some what as another worker from a country outside the EU is subjected to getting visa's, immigration interviews and don't have the freedom of just walking into a country and settling there like European Citizens do. The whole immigration process is unfair. Why should European citizens have the unfair advantage?
> 
> The comments made by May where not xenophobic or racist they were true.


Of course shes xenophobic - and Jonathan Lis sums it up perfectly.

*Jonathan Lis*‏ @jonlis1 17h17 hours ago
May's argument today that ending free movement constitutes justice against EU 'queu*e*-jumpers' in favour of Indian tech workers is genuinely obscene. Those people could come right now if gov wasn't so pathologically xenophobic. Don't let them play immigrants off against each other







stockwellcat. said:


> I am having a Brexit break and going to other parts in the forum (
> 
> on.
> 
> Off I go for my Brexit Break.


:Hilarious OMG not another break:Hilarious. How longs this one for? a couple of hours? till tomorow?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Of course shes xenophobic - and Jonathan Lis sums it up perfectly.
> 
> *Jonathan Lis*‏ @jonlis1 17h17 hours ago
> May's argument today that ending free movement constitutes justice against EU 'queu*e*-jumpers' in favour of Indian tech workers is genuinely obscene. Those people could come right now if gov wasn't so pathologically xenophobic. Don't let them play immigrants off against each other
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :Hilarious OMG not another break:Hilarious. How longs this one for? a couple of hours? till tomorow?


Of course, she's also expressed not wanting anyone who earns less than £50K.

What a disgusting insult to NHS staff for example, UK born or otherwise.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Of course, she's also expressed not wanting anyone who earns less than £50K.
> 
> What a disgusting insult to NHS staff for example, UK born or otherwise.
> 
> View attachment 376664


Appalling. Totally indefensible. Is this really what many leave voters voted for?? Seems so, lots of them are defending her over on twitter.

Here is the reaction by some to her hateful words. I've copied just a tiny fraction of what Ive read!

_According to today's news I'm a #*queuejumper*. I'm proud to have enabled many patients to live their lives after illness/injury, developing students to care for patients with expertise + compassion, I even dared to seduce a British man, bring up British children, complete a phd.

I'm really pleased that my Greek gynaecologist was a #*QueueJumper*. Thanks to him I no longer have #cancer @theresa_may you should be ashamed to describe our valued neighbours and friends like this #StillTheNastyParty

#*queuejumper* is a particularly British type of insult. It plays into nativist and populist narratives & bears no relation to reality. In open job adverts, employers do not prioritise #EEA applicants over other nationals. #cbi2018 #Brexit

My son Senior Software Eng had young Indian graduate working for him few years ago who they wanted to keep on but due to 'hostile environment'
created by PM as Home Sec he could not get his Visa extended to continue in job...the two-faced hypocrisy of this woman is unbelievable

*Scientists for EU*‏ @Scientists4EU 21h21 hours ago
This is utterly disingenuous. EU citizens don't "jump the queue" over engineers/scientists from India, Australia. Labs & companies identify the talent they want. Then if the individuals are from outside the EU *our own government* puts up the barriers.

As already pointed out by @StevePeers, #*queuejumper* is a borrowed phrase from other countries. Like Australia... Read below. Its deliberate use for @The3Million is chilling. 'Queue jumping' the hot button for Australian thinking about asylum seeker_s

_My dad fought in the Polish Army and saw service in Monte Cassino before coming to the UK after the war. I suppose he would be one of the first in line for #queuejumping_

*the3million*‏ @The3Million 19h19 hours ago
What was Theresa May's dream news headline from her speech today at the @CBItweets conference? "Brexit plan will stop EU migrants 'jumping the queue' " Who delivered that headline? The @BBC @bbcpress, you are complicit in starting yet another anti-EU citizen campaign


----------



## Elles

I listened to her speech. We won’t be able to ‘jump the queue’ in Europe either. What she’s promising is to make it easier to recruit globally, once FOM ends. Not exactly what brexiteers wanted, but wrapped in terms that make it look like it is.

It is an unfortunate term her speech writers chose, it brings another term, ‘foot in mouth’, to mind, but I can see what they’re trying to do. It’s stopping immigration, without stopping immigration. Businesses want to be able to employ from outside of Britain and were concerned that the ending of free movement would mean they no longer could. Her speech said they would be able to and that the government were going to make it easier for them, not more difficult. By the time they write special dispensations for agri workers, health workers and workers in tourism and cut the red tape for recruitment outside of Europe, it will be easier, not more difficult to employ cheap labour and avoid educating the British lol.

Very sneaky. Let’s offend people, so no one notices what we’re really up to?


----------



## Arnie83

*Brexit news latest: European Court hearing to consider whether Article 50 can be reversed gets go ahead*

The Government has failed to stop a European Court hearing which will consider whether the UK can unilaterally revoke its Article 50 request to leave the EU.​


----------



## Elles

Once we leave the Eu the government will need to clarify and make it simpler for Eu citizens married to U.K. citizens and for those already living and working here and their families imo. They did say a while back that they would. At the moment, because Eu nationals don’t need to apply for anything, it does seem to be a mess.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> *Brexit news latest: European Court hearing to consider whether Article 50 can be reversed gets go ahead*
> 
> The Government has failed to stop a European Court hearing which will consider whether the UK can unilaterally revoke its Article 50 request to leave the EU.​


The government should have just let it go ahead in the first place. Why spend our money trying to prevent clarification? I expect we can withdraw from brexit any time we like really, whether we need the backing of the Eu or not. The Eu and Europe want us to stay in, at least they did yesterday. They shouldn't let Mrs May's speeches put them off. :Eggonface

We probably can't use it to bribe a better deal inside the Eu, eg give us more benefits and we'll stay in, nor the Eu use it to get more money from us, eg you've changed your mind, give us more money and you can stay in, but I would have guessed that we can probably stay with the same deal we already had. We'll find out now.

Even if we do leave, we'll probably end up with a government that wants us to be in the Eu in the future anyway. Unless the Eu collapses, we'll end up back in. In 20 years these young people whose future is being ruined will be hitting their 40s+ and in charge. If it's no good they can change it. If people are still alive then.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> No its because you discount FACTS as conspiracy theories. You unquestioningly accept information from dubious sources yet dismiss outright, information based on solid, _irrefutable_ evidence as a conspiracy theory.
> 
> And, people, by doing so are putting not only OUR democracy in grave danger & the stability of of other democracies - but the very future of our living planet.
> 
> When something sounds like conspiracy theory because it is so unbelievably sinister - it doesnt always mean it is. Always, always check the source!
> 
> It was revealed *IN COURT* that the 'Nine Entities' around the dodgy Tax Payer's Alliance and Matthew Elliott, director the official Leave Campaign, are a joint enterprise, funded by dark money.


As always when someone doesn't subscribe to your point of view, you insult them!

Despite telling me otherwise you don't know me and certainly have no understanding of the way I think and the conclusions I come to!

*"No its because you discount FACTS as conspiracy theories. You unquestioningly accept information from dubious sources yet dismiss outright, information based on solid, irrefutable evidence as a conspiracy theory"*

Try reading some facts about the psychology of conspiracy theories - you might learn something!

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/DouglasSuttonBOS2015.pdf

http://www.niemt/anlab.org/2018/03/...its-messing-with-the-researchers-who-study-it

http://sciencenordic.com/secrets-and-lies-psychology-conspiracy-theories


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> As always when someone doesn't subscribe to your point of view, you insult them!
> 
> Despite telling me otherwise you don't know me and certainly have no understanding of the way I think and the conclusions I come to!
> 
> *"No its because you discount FACTS as conspiracy theories. You unquestioningly accept information from dubious sources yet dismiss outright, information based on solid, irrefutable evidence as a conspiracy theory"*
> 
> Try reading some facts about the psychology of conspiracy theories - you might learn something!
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/DouglasSuttonBOS2015.pdf
> 
> http://www.niemt/anlab.org/2018/03/...its-messing-with-the-researchers-who-study-it
> 
> http://sciencenordic.com/secrets-and-lies-psychology-conspiracy-theories


To be fair to noush, her debating style isn't the best (and I rarely do more than skim-read her posts because of it, to be honest), but she does know quite a bit about which 'research' outfits are fronts for those with a vested (monetary) interest in an area. A bit like things were with tobacco industry 'research scientists' back in the 80s...


----------



## Elles

I have to admit I do find the ‘queue jumper’ thing a tad sinister. If there’s one thing Brits don’t like it’s queue jumpers, so accusing Eu citizens of jumping the queue ahead of Australians (in favour with extremists) and people from Delhi (not in favour with extremists if they know where it is) seems more than a little manipulative. It’s obvious that this kind of language can be seen as offensive, so imo there’s more to it than some kind of faux pas.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> To be fair to noush, her debating style isn't the best (and I rarely do more than skim-read her posts because of it, to be honest), but she does know quite a bit about which 'research' outfits are fronts for those with a vested (monetary) interest in an area. A bit like things were with tobacco industry 'research scientists' back in the 80s...


Sorry Jesthar ..... Noushka doesn't "debate", she lectures you as if you're a small child and have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe, as you say she does know a fair amount about organisations/individuals with vested interests in certain areas such as climate change or politics, but what makes her think she's the only one who has this knowledge? It's the assumption she makes that her opinion is always correct and the only one that's valid, and everyone else is so misinformed it's her duty to put us poor misguided fools right!

As someone who spent years negotiating funding involving large sums of money for community HIV projects with organisations like the UK, German and US governments I had to learn how to make my point about a subject without being rude or causing offense.

It's not difficult, it just means engaging brain before you begin to speak or type!


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> It's not difficult, it just means engaging brain before you begin to speak or type!


Oh it is difficult when you are always right.......that's why I have so much trouble being polite


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Oh it is difficult when you are always right.......that's why I have so much trouble being polite


Rona ... I know I'm not always right, but I am always willing to admit as much and I'll apologise with good grace


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I have to admit I do find the 'queue jumper' thing a tad sinister. If there's one thing Brits don't like it's queue jumpers, so accusing Eu citizens of jumping the queue ahead of Australians (in favour with extremists) and people from Delhi (not in favour with extremists if they know where it is) seems more than a little manipulative. It's obvious that this kind of language can be seen as offensive, so imo there's more to it than some kind of faux pas.


It's also a tad confusing ...

May said:

"It will no longer be the case that EU nationals, *regardless of the skills or experience they have to offer*, can jump the queue ahead of engineers from Sydney or software developers from Delhi."​
So if a company has a vacancy for a software developer, is she saying that it is forced to offer the job to an unskilled Romanian rather than an Indian software developer?


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Sorry Jesthar ..... Noushka doesn't "debate", she lectures you as if you're a small child and have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Maybe, as you say she does know a fair amount about organisations/individuals with vested interests in certain areas such as climate change or politics, but what makes her think she's the only one who has this knowledge? It's the assumption she makes that her opinion is always correct and the only one that's valid, and everyone else is so misinformed it's her duty to put us poor misguided fools right!
> 
> As someone who spent years negotiating funding involving large sums of money for community HIV projects with organisations like the UK, German and US governments I had to learn how to make my point about a subject without being rude or causing offense.
> 
> It's not difficult, it just means engaging brain before you begin to speak or type!


Look, I'm not going to get into discussing peoples personal posting styles, as that's not helpful. But please bear in mind it's not as easy for some as for others.

I, for example, am high functioning autistic, and whilst I know I can project a very good image of being socially adept and neurotypically at ease with casual debate (and tht in itself has taken years to develop), the reality is it's not easy and takes a lot of effort. Sometimes I have to read a post several times to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly, and even then I can get it wrong. Sometimes I can even have spent a good while writing a reply before realising something wasn't meant that way.

Then, there is wording. I am designed for logic - hard, cold logic. If I wrote all my replies as my brain automatically formulates them, after a while I doubt anyone would have much positive to say about me. To constantly work out how dress things up and sugar coat them the way the world expects is, to be frank, exhausting and time consuming. And even with many, many years of painful experience behind me, I can still struggle with boundaries and situational appropriateness.

I'm blessed in that I'm also highly empathic and therefore aware of these things and can take steps to moderate the real me for public consumption. Get me started on something I'm passionate about, though, and all those behaviour modification filters can drop out if I'm not careful. Plus you always get those who live to take offence at _something_ given half the chance 

This, then, is why I try hard to separate content from style - I know all to well how difficult it can be. Such as how it's taken me the last 50 minutes to write this post - checking, rechecking, rewriting, going away, coming back, checking again, rewriting again. All so I can try and avoid upsetting people or coming over preachy. Can you imagine how many times I've spent an hour thinking about and writing a carefully worded post only to find the topic has moved on (or been locked) and I've wasted my time? In a fast moving thrad, balancing speed with appropriateness is another entire can of worms in itself.

Anyway, I can only speak for me, and I hope I haven't offended anyone by raising the point, but yeah - it can be very difficult indeed...


----------



## Arnie83

Meanwhile, on Conservative Home, David Davis writes ...

"If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it. Let's be clear and honest and tell the EU that's what we are prepared to do."​
He doesn't appear to have realised that if there is no deal, there won't be a transition period. But then he was only Brexit minister for 2 years; how was he to know?


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Look, I'm not going to get into discussing peoples personal posting styles, as that's not helpful. But please bear in mind it's not as easy for some as for others.
> 
> I, for example, am high functioning autistic, and whilst I know I can project a very good image of being socially adept and neurotypically at ease with casual debate (and tht in itself has taken years to develop), the reality is it's not easy and takes a lot of effort. Sometimes I have to read a post several times to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly, and even then I can get it wrong. Sometimes I can even have spent a good while writing a reply before realising something wasn't meant that way.
> 
> Then, there is wording. I am designed for logic - hard, cold logic. If I wrote all my replies as my brain automatically formulates them, after a while I doubt anyone would have much positive to say about me. To constantly work out how dress things up and sugar coat them the way the world expects is, to be frank, exhausting and time consuming. And even with many, many years of painful experience behind me, I can still struggle with boundaries and situational appropriateness.
> 
> I'm blessed in that I'm also highly empathic and therefore aware of these things and can take steps to moderate the real me for public consumption. Get me started on something I'm passionate about, though, and all those behaviour modification filters can drop out if I'm not careful. Plus you always get those who live to take offence at _something_ given half the chance
> 
> This, then, is why I try hard to separate content from style - I know all to well how difficult it can be. Such as how it's taken me the last 50 minutes to write this post - checking, rechecking, rewriting, going away, coming back, checking again, rewriting again. All so I can try and avoid upsetting people or coming over preachy. Can you imagine how many times I've spent an hour thinking about and writing a carefully worded post only to find the topic has moved on (or been locked) and I've wasted my time? In a fast moving thrad, balancing speed with appropriateness is another entire can of worms in itself.
> 
> Anyway, I can only speak for me, and I hope I haven't offended anyone by raising the point, but yeah - it can be very difficult indeed...


Well you do a helluva job overcoming your difficulties. Kudos to you!


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Well you do a helluva job overcoming your difficulties. Kudos to you!


Cheers, Arnie 

As I said, I'm blessed in that I'm high functioning and have most of the bigger advantages (high IQ, pick up stuff others miss etc.) with relatively few of the lesser drawbacks (I hate change, for example, and need regular alone time or I get 'peopled out' and grumpy. Oh, and what's a hoover?  ). I also have plenty of friends who accept me as me, which definitely helps!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It's also a tad confusing ...
> 
> May said:
> 
> "It will no longer be the case that EU nationals, *regardless of the skills or experience they have to offer*, can jump the queue ahead of engineers from Sydney or software developers from Delhi."​
> So if a company has a vacancy for a software developer, is she saying that it is forced to offer the job to an unskilled Romanian rather than an Indian software developer?


I would imagine she means that anyone from Europe can come here straight away, whereas a software developer from India might not get in at all. In her new Britain, the skilled from Delhi will have priority and the unskilled from the Eu won't get in at all. That seems to be the plan anyway.

Out of interest did you watch her actual speech? I wonder if she'd read it beforehand. There was a definite stutter over the queue jump sentence.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> As always when someone doesn't subscribe to your point of view, you insult them!
> 
> Despite telling me otherwise you don't know me and certainly have no understanding of the way I think and the conclusions I come to!
> 
> *"No its because you discount FACTS as conspiracy theories. You unquestioningly accept information from dubious sources yet dismiss outright, information based on solid, irrefutable evidence as a conspiracy theory"*
> 
> Try reading some facts about the psychology of conspiracy theories - you might learn something!
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/DouglasSuttonBOS2015.pdf
> 
> http://www.niemt/anlab.org/2018/03/...its-messing-with-the-researchers-who-study-it
> 
> http://sciencenordic.com/secrets-and-lies-psychology-conspiracy-theories


Its not about points of view though is it? We can have our own points of view but we cant have your own facts. I provide evidence linking the leave campaign & shady trans atlantic libertarian think tanks, you dismissed it. It is common knowledge that 55 Tufton Street is home to several groups which spread misinformation about climate science and work to reduce protections for the environment. Its no conspiracy theory.

I can only go on what on you post & reference and you appear to get much of your info from right wing libertarian sources and the right wing press. These are not reliable sources.

You have even dismissed the findings of a court case as part of some conspiracy theory. It ceases to be a conspiracy theory when you can provide hard evidence which there is @Magyarmum. And the evidence is piling up, BOTH sides of the Atlantic - https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...annon-and-cambridge-analyticas-role-in-brexit

_
For two years, observers have speculated that the June, 2016, Brexit campaign in the U.K. served as a petri dish for Donald Trump's Presidential campaign in the United States. Now there is new evidence that it did. Newly surfaced e-mails show that the former Trump adviser Steve Bannon, and Cambridge Analytica, the Big Data company that he worked for at the time, were simultaneously incubating both nationalist political movements in 2015.
_

Please read this -
*We have 12 years to limit climate change catastrophe, warns UN*
Urgent changes needed to cut risk of extreme heat, drought, floods and poverty, says IPCC

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-must-not-exceed-15c-warns-landmark-un-report

The people in Tufton Street, the dark web with links to the Koch brothers are going to destroy our living planet. And that is not a conspiracy theory. Brexit is going to unleash these monsters here.



Magyarmum said:


> Sorry Jesthar ..... Noushka doesn't "debate", she lectures you as if you're a small child and have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Maybe, as you say she does know a fair amount about organisations/individuals with vested interests in certain areas such as climate change or politics, but what makes her think she's the only one who has this knowledge? It's the assumption she makes that her opinion is always correct and the only one that's valid, and everyone else is so misinformed it's her duty to put us poor misguided fools right!
> 
> As someone who spent years negotiating funding involving large sums of money for community HIV projects with organisations like the UK, German and US governments I had to learn how to make my point about a subject without being rude or causing offense.
> 
> It's not difficult, it just means engaging brain before you begin to speak or type!


To be fair your posts to people you disagree with can be rather sharp. Not that It bothers me when I'm on the receiving end - just saying like.
And of course I dont think I'm the only one who has that knowledge. I'm getting my knowledge second hand from people who are experts in their various fields - mostly leading scientists, environmentalists & trusted NGOs & then passing it on. So if I see someone say something I believe to be false - I'm going to challenge it. I'm the first to admit it may come across clumsily at times, but it isnt intentional. Its desperational.

E]



Magyarmum said:


> Rona ... I know I'm not always right, but I am always willing to admit as much and I'll apologise with good grace


And I have always held my hands up when I've been proved wrong, I've never had any problem apologising when I'm in the wrong. But if I feel I'm right I'm like a dog with a bone. Especially where it concerns the environment or wildlife.



Jesthar said:


> To be fair to noush, her debating style isn't the best (and I rarely do more than skim-read her posts because of it, to be honest), but she does know quite a bit about which 'research' outfits are fronts for those with a vested (monetary) interest in an area. A bit like things were with tobacco industry 'research scientists' back in the 80s...


Thats very fair of you, thank you Jesthar. My debating style is pretty poor, and its likely got a lot worse since brexit:Bag


----------



## KittenKong

As much as I despise their politics etc. Could the DUP become the unlikely heroes towards the contribution in May's eventual downfall?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...d-supporting-theresa-may-in-parliament/19/11/


----------



## KittenKong

Spot the difference...


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Spot the difference...
> 
> View attachment 376755
> View attachment 376756


I've been reading more responses to her hateful divisive rhetoric. Didnt we warn it would come to this?

Just check these out KK.


*Howard Goodall*‏Verified account @Howard_Goodall Nov 19
Howard Goodall Retweeted The Guardian

When politicians have no arguments left, no morality, no integrity & no hope to offer, they fall back on attacking foreigners. Including those whose skill & hard work keep our NHS & our industries going. I am sick of this fascistic shit being dished out like it's a 'policy'.

*Alex Andreou*‏Verified account @sturdyAlex 21h21 hours ago
Nice to be told, after 28 years in the UK, that I jumped a queue that didn't in fact exist. I'm sure such language makes "the best and brightest" want to rush to the sort of country that'll unilaterally un-invite and demonise them the moment they become politically inconvenient.
The only queues I see at the moment are of bright, useful, good citizens trying to leave this dumpster fire of a country.

Let's be clear about this: 'Queue-jumpers' is a demeaning and disgusting phrase to describe EU nationals who came here exercising treaty rights that British citizens also have. It's entirely deliberate, shameful and inexcusable to use this kind of language

@mrjamesob, I'd like to add to your radio conversations earlier, here's my story as a Romanian "queue jumper" in the UK. I hope you become an @eucitizenschamp. Thank you for all your work to address May's divisive rhetoric and dog whistle strategies. #CitizensRights











*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Nov 19
"EU citizens are welcome here. Trust me" says woman responsible for Windrush scandal who presided over the hostile environment and sent out the Go Home vans as she incites prejudice against EU citizens.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I would imagine she means that anyone from Europe can come here straight away, whereas a software developer from India might not get in at all. In her new Britain, the skilled from Delhi will have priority and the unskilled from the Eu won't get in at all. That seems to be the plan anyway.
> 
> Out of interest did you watch her actual speech? I wonder if she'd read it beforehand. There was a definite stutter over the queue jump sentence.


Perhaps things would be difference if we had followed the EU rules and deported all those who come here and don't find jobs in 3 months. Too late now, though.

I did see her speech, yes. I'm pretty sure she would have practiced it, but maybe she read that bit and thought; hang about that doesn't sound right ...


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Spot the difference...
> 
> View attachment 376755
> View attachment 376756


One is Theresa May and the other is Marine Le Pen

How did I do?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It's also a tad confusing ...
> 
> May said:
> 
> "It will no longer be the case that EU nationals, *regardless of the skills or experience they have to offer*, can jump the queue ahead of engineers from Sydney or software developers from Delhi."​
> So if a company has a vacancy for a software developer, is she saying that it is forced to offer the job to an unskilled Romanian rather than an Indian software developer?





Elles said:


> I would imagine she means that anyone from Europe can come here straight away, whereas a software developer from India might not get in at all. In her new Britain, the skilled from Delhi will have priority and the unskilled from the Eu won't get in at all. That seems to be the plan anyway.
> 
> Out of interest did you watch her actual speech? I wonder if she'd read it beforehand. There was a definite stutter over the queue jump sentence.


If you watch the video on the link Femi brilliantly rips apart her entire speech with facts. That young man has been outstanding throughout this fiasco.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1064647175450370049
....


----------



## noushka05

Divide and rule. Its what the tories are best at.

*the3million*‏ @The3Million 1h1 hour ago
Our statement on Theresa May's 'queue jumping' rhetoric yesterday: "We EU citizens in the UK will not tolerate a repeat of the toxic anti-immigrant language used in the 2016 referendum. [...] We call on MPs to publicly oppose the return of these tactics [...]."


----------



## Elles

What? When she says more opportunities for young people in this country, she’s not talking about their being able to get a job in a French hotel. France isn’t in this country.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> What? When she says more opportunities for young people in this country, she's not talking about their being able to get a job in a French hotel. France isn't in this country.


There will be LESS opportunities for young people in this country when freedom of movement stops. That is obvious.

The youth are fighting for their future. http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/11/20/young-entrepreneurs-reject-may-s-brexit-deal

*Young entrepreneurs reject May's Brexit deal*


----------



## noushka05

I totally echo what Molly says.

*Molly Scott Cato MEP*‏ @MollyMEP 10h10 hours ago
Molly Scott Cato MEP Retweeted Frank Pohlmann

So ashamed of the Prime Minister's words. I'm so sorry to Frank and all the @The3Million who have shared their lives with us and given so much

*Frank Pohlmann*‏ @HoloRealism
I have been jumping the queue for 18 years now, teaching your kids mathematics and physics ...I am incandescent with rage, Theresa May


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> There will be LESS opportunities for young people in this country when freedom of movement stops. That is obvious.
> 
> The youth are fighting for their future. http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/11/20/young-entrepreneurs-reject-may-s-brexit-deal
> 
> *Young entrepreneurs reject May's Brexit deal*


It depends on how much money the government put into it. If they put money in, there could be more opportunities in this country, like she said. The young can never leave, but there'll be openings in government departments at the very least I expect. Technically she could be right. Nothing obvious about it at all.

There will be less opportunities overall for British youngsters perhaps, if they lose all access to Europe, but that's not what she said. She said opportunities in this country, not opportunities for British kids abroad.

Have the Eu said that they'll restrict our youngsters? They can still get a free education in some countries, despite our charging their own. Kids from countries outside the Eu seem to be able to get work in the Eu. As I already mentioned, the young people from the balkans.

The young can do what they like in a few years. All the people debating and negotiating this will be gone and politics will have moved on. The main thing imho is to not sign anything that locks anyone into something they can't get out of. Either way.


----------



## Elles

Actually this is interpretation of the same speech.

Does it mean opportunities in this country, or does it mean opportunities for British kids. Seems the young person in your video and you yourself take it to mean British kids, not jobs, or training in the U.K.


----------



## Elles

Don’t get so incandescent with rage Frank, it’s bad for you. You’ve had a job here, not teaching out of charity. If it was for charity, it would be in third world countries probably. Ignore Theresa May’s speech, it wasn’t personal, there’s probably some kind of ulterior motive to it. 

I’m far more angry that people from Germany for example can take their free education and then teach here, while young people here have to pay for their education and end up in debt for most of their lives. That’s far worse than a few insulting words in a speech. Our government insult our own young with actions, not words. You’re lucky, you can take your free education and use it anywhere in Europe. Our kids pay for theirs and then are likely to be stuck here, if all the predictions are right. I’m not sure they will be, but time will tell. So much for equality across the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> One is Theresa May and the other is Marine Le Pen
> 
> How did I do?


Brilliant answer, but I'm inclined to call TM, May Le Pen nowadays.

Their politics are certainly very similar as well as their images.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> As much as I despise their politics etc. Could the DUP become the unlikely heroes towards the contribution in May's eventual downfall?


I hope not. I might despise May but I despise Unionist bigots more.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Don't get so incandescent with rage Frank, it's bad for you. You've had a job here, not teaching out of charity. If it was for charity, it would be in third world countries probably. Ignore Theresa May's speech, it wasn't personal, there's probably some kind of ulterior motive to it.
> 
> I'm far more angry that people from Germany for example can take their free education and then teach here, while young people here have to pay for their education and end up in debt for most of their lives. That's far worse than a few insulting words in a speech. Our government insult our own young with actions, not words. You're lucky, you can take your free education and use it anywhere in Europe. Our kids pay for theirs and then are likely to be stuck here, if all the predictions are right. I'm not sure they will be, but time will tell. So much for equality across the Eu.


But isn't that how this government works by causing divisions like this?

Why can't the UK have free education if Germany has it for example? No fault of Germany nor the EU that the UK doesn't.

As I said earlier, if government's past and present looked towards Germany for inspiration rather than the USA it might still have a car industry for one thing.

But they're still stuck in the, "We won the war", mindset.

Yet Germany is well ahead of the UK, it's not putting the UK down, it's the truth.

It's about time the UK moved on and realised Hitler and the Nazis became a thing of the past some 73 years ago.....


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> What? When she says more opportunities for young people in this country, she's not talking about their being able to get a job in a French hotel. France isn't in this country.


Sounds to me TM doesn't want anyone to leave the UK if they want to.

Didn't the USSR do that by building a wall in Berlin at one point?


----------



## Elles

I agree KK. Why can’t we have a free education? Iirc ours is the most expensive in the Eu, which is pretty poor show for one of the wealthiest members. I’ve said this before though, it’s a pet peeve.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> I hope not. I might despise May but I despise Unionist bigots more.


And you don't think Theresa May is a Unionist bigot?


----------



## Jonescat

Hmm - here's a snippet from Reuters

BELFAST (Reuters) - British Chancellor Philip Hammond and former foreign minister Boris Johnson are both expected to attend the annual conference of the Democratic Unionist Party in Belfast this weekend, a source from the party told Reuters on Tuesday.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Don't get so incandescent with rage Frank, it's bad for you. You've had a job here, not teaching out of charity. If it was for charity, it would be in third world countries probably. Ignore Theresa May's speech, it wasn't personal, there's probably some kind of ulterior motive to it.
> 
> I'm far more angry that people from Germany for example can take their free education and then teach here, while young people here have to pay for their education and end up in debt for most of their lives. That's far worse than a few insulting words in a speech. Our government insult our own young with actions, not words. You're lucky, you can take your free education and use it anywhere in Europe. Our kids pay for theirs and then are likely to be stuck here, if all the predictions are right. I'm not sure they will be, but time will tell. So much for equality across the Eu.


Easy to say when you're not in Franks shoes. May has always used divisive rhetoric, as Home Secretary she was responsible for the Windrush scandal & for creating the 'hostile environment' policy .

As James O'Brien puts it May is a middle class racist. .....the geography of your birth is an indicator of your worth......


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1064839228033564673
....

...


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise
_
The government has just voted against @UKLabour's amendment to the #agriculturebill to ban foie gras imports_
_

....._


----------



## Arnie83

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1064856107447918592


Jason J [email protected]
Ever wondered how much "money" Brexit is taking back control of?

37p in each £100 that the UK Government spend. That's £3.70 in each £1,000.

Is it worth losing your job over? Really? Are YOU sure?


----------



## noushka05

More on the leaked emails. When questioned Theresa May failed to deny she blocked an investigation into Banks when she was Home Secretary.

*CNN International*‏Verified account @cnni
Arron Banks, the backer of the biggest campaign behind Brexit, asked a controversial data firm co-founded by Steve Bannon to draw up plans for raising funds from the US as early as 2015, newly leaked emails reveal https://cnn.it/2QS2L5D


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone would think we just give the EU money and get nothing back, how do you think we have built some of our roads and electrified some of the railways, magic dust.


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> And you don't think Theresa May is a Unionist bigot?


Nope. Doesn't even come close.


----------



## KittenKong

Not directed at anyone here, but I've heard this sort of thing from some Brexit supporters.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone would think we just give the EU money and get nothing back, how do you think we have built some of our roads and electrified some of the railways, magic dust.


Our membership of the EU has, in part, funded the NHS. You won't get many Leavers admitting that either!


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> Nope. Doesn't even come close.


With respect, I disagree.

May must've been a Unionist Bigot to want to work with the DUP in the first place. I know she was desperate to cling onto power but Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't have a coalition with UKIP to win power would he?!

And the way she carries on about her, "Precious union".

May is equally as bad as Arlene Foster in my view, the difference is many haven't seen the worst of her yet which we duly will post Brexit/transition period.

Does this inspire confidence?

While not suggesting for a moment that May shares the same views it doesn't exactly look encouraging to invite these people.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted. Comment already posted by Noushka on previous page.


----------



## Elles

Why are all these copy/pastes in huge bold type?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Why are all these copy/pastes in huge bold type?


It must be something catching . Be careful or we'll all *end up doing it ! oh too late , Ive got Bolditis now . *


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Why are all these copy/pastes in huge bold type?


Think the re-sizing has a lot to do with it. I usually do it for 800 pixels max. The resultant large size certainly isn't deliberate, just how it appears.

I'll try this experiment:















Hmmm... Same screen capture, saved at 800 then 480 megapixels. Seems to come over the same size but in obviously reduced quality.


----------



## KittenKong

It's been reported that Kenneth Clark is now backing TM's Brexit plan.

What's in it for him, a peerage?

Shouldn't be any surprise. Couldn't stand the man when he was in the cabinet.

Now, that's Clark and, allegedly a Lib Dem MP backing May over Brexit 

Seems my predictions are becoming true which was not unexpected unfortunately.

I wonder how many Labour MPs are going to be frightened into backing May? Bet they'll be quite a few....


----------



## KittenKong

Seeing most Brexiters and Remainers detest the May deal this comment is applicable for both camps.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Not directed at anyone here, but I've heard this sort of thing from some Brexit supporters.
> View attachment 376805


Not to mention we only finished paying off the debts we racked up fighting it on 31st December 2006...


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> May must've been a Unionist Bigot to want to work with the DUP in the first place


If she 'wanted' to work with them why wasn't she cosying up to them before the election? She was looking for numbers and was prepared to get in bed with the devil. It's the closest thing to a Faustian pact you'll ever see in real life.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Not to mention we only finished paying off the debts we racked up fighting it on 31st December 2006...


And if we hadn't incurred those debts the chances are we'd be all be speaking German and taking our orders from Merkel


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Why are all these copy/pastes in huge bold type?


Dunno, but it makes me go selectively blind.


----------



## noushka05

Go Jezza & Nicola!.

*Sky News Politics*‏Verified account @SkyNewsPolitics 11h11 hours ago
Corbyn and Sturgeon team up to block draft Brexit deal

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-c...up-in-bid-to-block-draft-brexit-deal-11558960












Magyarmum said:


> And if we hadn't incurred those debts the chances are we'd be all be speaking German and taking our orders from Merkel


I'm not a fan of Merkel, but shes no fascist. Unlike our PM & Orban in the country where you reside, Merkel has shown great compassion for refugees fleeing the horrors of conflict. Something no fascist would ever do.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's been reported that Kenneth Clark is now backing TM's Brexit plan.
> 
> What's in it for him, a peerage?
> 
> Shouldn't be any surprise. Couldn't stand the man when he was in the cabinet.
> 
> Now, that's Clark and, allegedly a Lib Dem MP backing May over Brexit
> 
> Seems my predictions are becoming true which was not unexpected unfortunately.
> 
> I wonder how many Labour MPs are going to be frightened into backing May? Bet they'll be quite a few....


Never trust a tory 

Owen Jones response lol
_
Oh look. Former Big Tobacco stooge who forced through the NHS internal market, voted to slash benefits for disabled and low paid people, privatise services and cut taxes for the rich, venerated by "centrists" as an anti-Brexit warrior - and he's voting for May's dire Brexit deal_
_

..............._


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Never trust a tory
> 
> Owen Jones response lol
> _
> Oh look. Former Big Tobacco stooge who forced through the NHS internal market, voted to slash benefits for disabled and low paid people, privatise services and cut taxes for the rich, venerated by "centrists" as an anti-Brexit warrior - and he's voting for May's dire Brexit deal
> 
> ..............._


Perhaps he thinks it's better than no deal.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Perhaps he thinks it's better than no deal.


Its a terrible deal & it sounds as though there is no majority for no deal - which makes a peoples vote more likely than ever. Remainers should have the courage to vote down her deal. Its the only hope of getting us out of this mess.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Its a terrible deal & it sounds as though there is no majority for no deal - which makes a peoples vote more likely than ever. Remainers should have the courage to vote down her deal. Its the only hope of getting us out of this mess.


What if the result is no deal instead?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> What if the result is no deal instead?


The those who drove us to an impossible position can take responsiblity.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Its a terrible deal & it sounds as though there is no majority for no deal - which makes a peoples vote more likely than ever. Remainers should have the courage to vote down her deal. Its the only hope of getting us out of this mess.


The sad thing is, for a supposed remainer like Kenneth Clarke proposing to back the May plan, he might manage to persuade others to do so.

The man's a turd. He's no better than May is when it comes to changing stance to save the party.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> The sad thing is, for a supposed remainer like Kenneth Clarke proposing to back the May plan, he might manage to persuade others to do so.
> 
> The man's a turd. He's no better than May is when it comes to changing stance to save the party.


That is the worry.

Thats one way of putting it  You only have to check out his voting history to see where his interests lie.

.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> And if we hadn't incurred those debts the chances are we'd be all be speaking German and taking our orders from Merkel


I really don't think someone like Merkel would now be heading Germany. Frank Franz maybe


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> If she 'wanted' to work with them why wasn't she cosying up to them before the election? She was looking for numbers and was prepared to get in bed with the devil. It's the closest thing to a Faustian pact you'll ever see in real life.


She was though wasn't she, though it would be unfair of me to say she was the only one in the Tory party to give support from afar.

Traditionally, the Tories and the DUP have much in common, the love of the Union, "Britishness" and all that.

Because the Tories cannot be elected in NI the DUP are the obvious alternative in much the same sense the SDLP are with the Labour Party.

May and Foster have similar personality traits. Despite so much in common this doesn't always work well. Just look at Hughie Green and Jess Yates for example.

May upsetting Foster could backfire on her badly. I hope it will do.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The sad thing is, for a supposed remainer like Kenneth Clarke proposing to back the May plan, he might manage to persuade others to do so.


This is my concern, and it seems to justify May's calculation that the threat of No Deal is enough to attract sensible MPs to her deal.

With Mogg's ERG looking increasingly feeble, and only the DUP dead against, May's deal is looking favourite, even though it would be a vote for a leap into the dark, since the future relationship is so ill-defined.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> And if we hadn't incurred those debts the chances are we'd be all be speaking German and taking our orders from Merkel


Didn't say it wasn't worth it - Hitler was one of those rare nutcases who not only believed the whole 'death or glory' fantasy, but raised an entire generation of the country he misled down the same ideological route.

(As an aside, we probably did have a choice about joining in. Hitler always admired the UK and her empire, and wanted her as a partner, not an enemy, if he could manage it. He'd have been more than happy to let us carry on expanding and ruling the Empire overseas, as long as we left Europe to him, and offered those terms even during the war itself if memory serves. If we'd have accepted, he'd still have gone on the offensive against Russia, and who knows how that would have gone (personally, I'd bet on the Russians given the track record of history)? Either way, we'd probably have been the only Europe based world power left by the time they were finished.)

I just get annoyed with the whole 'two world wars and one world cup' jingoism. Just because we survived it, doesn't mean it's something we should aspire to revisit. People remember the flag waving celebrations of 1945, and forget the cost and repercussions that went on for decades...


----------



## Elles

I think it’s ridiculous to compare Brexit with world war 2. We’re leaving the Eu, not declaring war and leaving the Eu will in no way compare to the devastation and destruction wrought by war.

I have no idea who keeps bringing it up outside of petforums, but on here it’s remainers. I haven’t seen anyone on petforums say stupid things like we survived ww2, so we’ll survive brexit. Seeing as leavers think things will be better out of the Eu, I don’t know why they’d say such a thing anyway. Implying Brexit is going to be as bad as the aftermath of ww2 surely would be the remit of remainers, not brexiteers.


----------



## Arnie83

Amber Rudd, freshly back in the Cabinet and commenting on what happens - or rather doesn't - if May's deal is voted down:

"It's my view that parliament, the House of Commons, will stop No Deal. There isn't a majority in the House of Commons for that to take place."​


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think it's ridiculous to compare Brexit with world war 2. We're leaving the Eu, not declaring war and leaving the Eu will in no way compare to the devastation and destruction wrought by war.
> 
> I have no idea who keeps bringing it up outside of petforums, but on here it's remainers. I haven't seen anyone on petforums say stupid things like we survived ww2, so we'll survive brexit. Seeing as leavers think things will be better out of the Eu, I don't know why they'd say such a thing anyway. Implying Brexit is going to be as bad as the aftermath of ww2 surely would be the remit of remainers, not brexiteers.


Can only speak for my personal experience, but when I've come across it, the conversation pattern has more or less gone something like this:

Leaver: Brexit now!
Remainer: Well, there are a few things we really should think about and plan for...
Leaver: We survived the war, we'll survive Brexit! Dunkirk spirit and all that!
Remainer: How does that help with the various problems no-one has a solution to yet?
Leaver: Don't be so negative! It'll be fine, it's all Project Fear!

Personally I don't get it either (see my previous comments about pointless jingoism), but there you go...


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think it's ridiculous to compare Brexit with world war 2. We're leaving the Eu, not declaring war and leaving the Eu will in no way compare to the devastation and destruction wrought by war.
> 
> I have no idea who keeps bringing it up outside of petforums, but on here it's remainers. I haven't seen anyone on petforums say stupid things like we survived ww2, so we'll survive brexit. Seeing as leavers think things will be better out of the Eu, I don't know why they'd say such a thing anyway. Implying Brexit is going to be as bad as the aftermath of ww2 surely would be the remit of remainers, not brexiteers.


My view is that some Leavers see their vote - maybe subconsciously - as an affirmation of the psyche of the British people: standing alone and apart, resisting interference from outside our own borders.

I have seen and heard the 'Dunkirk spirit' being referenced in respect to Brexit, and I think that analogy appeals to some voters. Warnings about No Deal consequences not only fail to sway them away from that route, but make it more attractive.


----------



## Elles

@Arnie83 Maybe now they've read it and maybe spoken to their counterparts in the Eu, they've decided it's not as bad as they thought. May is also threatening (promising) to have no Brexit at all as one of the options if her deal fails. Seems a lot of experts are coming around to the idea that no deal, or a failed second referendum are too great a risk. Yes, I too saw Amber Rudd saying that they won't allow no deal. The Eu have said they won't renegotiate and they are slightly involved in this. 

@Jesthar You guys seem to mix with some strange people. I've never had anything close to that kind of discussion with anyone. My answer would be on the lines of, 'so you think it'll be as bad as the Second World War then? I voted remain and even I don't think it'll be as bad as you think it will.'


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone would think we just give the EU money and get nothing back, how do you think we have built some of our roads and electrified some of the railways, magic dust.


So.....let me get this right.....we give them money so that we can get it back, while paying a load of bureaucrats to tell us what to do


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> @Jesthar You guys seem to mix with some strange people. I've never had anything close to that kind of discussion with anyone. My answer would be on the lines of, 'so you think it'll be as bad as the Second World War then? I voted remain and even I don't think it'll be as bad as you think it will.'


Didn't say it was me personally having the discussions - I'm just an avid student of human nature and love people watching.


----------



## Elles

How many here have read the deal in its entirety, rather than sound bites, cherry picked by the media?

I haven’t.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> How many here have read the deal in its entirety, rather than sound bites, cherry picked by the media?
> 
> I haven't.


I think stockwellcat might have from some of the comments made. Personally, I haven't even been bothering to keep up with what the media are saying, I've got better things to do with my time than read the latest WMG efforts on either side 

I'll only read the document itself if I absolutely have to - such as if I have insomnia  And I guarantee you I (or any other regular Joe) wouldn't understand it anyway, you'd need to be a specialist in legalese to do that.


----------



## Elles

So it’s possible a remainer said it’s going to be a disaster and compared it to ww2. A brexiter laughed, said it’s just fear mongering, we’ll be better out, and anyway we survived ww2, the Dunkirk spirit and all that lol.

If it’s a made up conversation, it could be anything.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> I think stockwellcat might have from some of the comments made. Personally, I haven't even been bothering to keep up with what the media are saying, I've got better things to do with my time than read the latest WMG efforts on either side
> 
> I'll only read the document itself if I absolutely have to - such as if I have insomnia  And I guarantee you I (or any other regular Joe) wouldn't understand it anyway, you'd need to be a specialist in legalese to do that.


I'm not reading it either, so maybe as has been previously suggested we leave it to the experts. The experts seem to be coming around to it, which I have to admit does surprise me. I wonder what they know that we don't.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> So.....let me get this right.....we give them money so that we can get it back, while paying a load of bureaucrats to tell us what to do


Say what you like...but most of the big building projects in this country has been done with EU money.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Say what you like...but most of the big building projects in this country has been done with EU money.


Our money that's come back from the EU after costs have been taken out


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So it's possible a remainer said it's going to be a disaster and compared it to ww2. A brexiter laughed, said it's just fear mongering, we'll be better out, and anyway we survived ww2, the Dunkirk spirit and all that lol.
> 
> If it's a made up conversation, it could be anything.


The only time I've ever seen people who didn't vote leave talking about it is when talking about people who did vote leave saying such things. YMMV


----------



## stockwellcat.

Stockwellcat reading the draft withdrawal agreement. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> The only time I've ever seen people who didn't vote leave talking about it is when talking about people who did vote leave saying such things. YMMV


That's hearsay and it doesn't count, because we can't ask them why they said it or what they meant. It's your interpretation, of someone else's interpretation of what someone else said, or didn't say. On petforums, no leaver has ever said brexit will be like ww2 and that we'll survive it.

One Daily Express reporter who'd just watched the Dunkirk movie, compared it, which may have been where it started. The Daily Express. He didn't say we'd survive it either, he said the Dunkirk spirit and determination will make Brexit a success. Still a ridiculous statement, but seemingly misappropriated by Remainers.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> That's hearsay and it doesn't count, because we can't ask them why they said it or what they meant. It's your interpretation, of someone else's interpretation of what someone else said, or didn't say. On petforums, no leaver has ever said brexit will be like ww2 and that we'll survive it.
> 
> One Daily Express reporter who'd just watched the Dunkirk movie, compared it, which may have been where it started. The Daily Express. He didn't say we'd survive it either, he said the Dunkirk spirit and determination will make Brexit a success. Still a ridiculous statement, but seemingly misappropriated by Remainers.


Didn't say it was on PF, and personal and direct observations isn't hearsay  It does make for a limited sample size, I'll grant you that. 

Interpretation is always going to be a factor, and there are many different methods of interpretation too (been a while since my Cognitive Reasoning modules at uni, mind, so I'm a bit rusty on the various closed and open loop theories these days!).

Personally, I don't reckon any one person in particular started it, I think it's something of a mindset amongst certain subsets of British society and was bound to be invoked independently regardless. I just wish they'd stop!


----------



## Jonescat

Nipping in at the end of lunchtime - from the independent -
*PMQs - live: Theresa May threatens 'no Brexit at all' as senior Tories put new referendum on table*

*:Cat*


----------



## Elles

It’s hearsay if you’re quoting what a remainer said a leaver said to another Remainer. Anyhow, it’s total rubbish. The Dunkirk spirit doesn’t exist and never has done. Groups of people of all nationalities come together under adversity. 

Some in war situations will also suffer and fall, these days we might call it ptsd, back in the day it was cowardice and desertion and you might have been imprisoned or shot. 

If you want people to stop bringing it up, Remainers need to put a lid on it on petforums. You can’t bring something up, then say you wish people would stop bringing it up lol.


----------



## Elles

If you’re a remain voter Theresa May isn’t ‘threatening’ no Brexit at all, she’s giving you hope lol.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> Nipping in at the end of lunchtime - from the independent -
> *PMQs - live: Theresa May threatens 'no Brexit at all' as senior Tories put new referendum on table*
> 
> *:Cat*


As MP's are reading the full withdrawal agreement they seem to be coming around to it. I watched PMQ's on TV and quite alot of them cheered her on. The opposition seem to have not read it yet in full and are sounding off.

The likes of Mogg and crew with their quest to challenge the PM with a vote of no confidence seems to be dwindling and is just hot air.

As a leave voter I don't like the agreement. But what I want and what the UK gets deal wise are 2 different things and I would just have to accept that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> If you're a remain voter Theresa May isn't 'threatening' no Brexit at all, she's giving you hope lol.


I'd be cautious if I was a remain voter with Theresa May's No Brexit At All comment.


----------



## Calvine




----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's hearsay if you're quoting what a remainer said a leaver said to another Remainer.


But it's not hearsay when it's a conversation I personally witnessed between a leaver and a remainer - which has always been the case with the incidents I am referring to here 



Elles said:


> Anyhow, it's total rubbish. The Dunkirk spirit doesn't exist and never has done. Groups of people of all nationalities come together under adversity. Some in war situations will also suffer and fall, these days we might call it ptsd, back in the day it was cowardice and desertion and you might have been imprisoned or shot.


You won't find me arguing 



Elles said:


> If you want people to stop bringing it up, Remainers need to put a lid on it on petforums. You can't bring something up, then say you wish people would stop bringing it up lol.


*shrug* I was talking in a wider sense than just PF. It's the attitudes behind those kinds of opinion I'd like to see change, but I don't hold out much hope for that given the general track record of humanity


----------



## Arnie83

Jonescat said:


> Nipping in at the end of lunchtime - from the independent -
> *PMQs - live: Theresa May threatens 'no Brexit at all' as senior Tories put new referendum on table*
> 
> *:Cat*


She also confirmed, in PMQs, that the UK would be leaving the EU at the end of March next year. She didn't seem aware of the contradiction.

But then it's politics and we shouldn't forget the number of times she denied that there would be an election, and then called one!


----------



## Elles

It was also noted that Corbyn could have asked about a second referendum and staying in the Eu, but didn’t.


----------



## noushka05

*Vince Cable*‏Verified account @vincecable
Met @NicolaSturgeon and other party leaders establishing common support for a #PeoplesVoteNow . Also agreed @jeremycorbyn must move 'no confidence' motion leading to vote for a #GeneralElectionNow


----------



## Elles

It is hearsay. The report of another person’s words by a witness. The people who said it aren’t here to refute, or substantiate it. You didn’t even actually quote what you heard/read, just gave an idea of what you feel is the gist of it. Hence, sorry, but yep, it’s hearsay. 

It doesn’t matter, we agree that talking of the Dunkirk spirit in relation to Brexit is idiocy, whichever side you stand on. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> *Vince Cable*‏Verified account @vincecable
> Met @NicolaSturgeon and other party leaders establishing common support for a #PeoplesVoteNow . Also agreed @jeremycorbyn must move 'no confidence' motion leading to vote for a #GeneralElectionNow


So Vince Cable wants a general election? What for?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It was also noted that Corbyn could have asked about a second referendum and staying in the Eu, but didn't.


Corbyn doesn't want either of those things. He just wants to get into power. (Which he won't.)


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Corbyn doesn't want either of those things. He just wants to get into power. (Which he won't.)


Certainly his actions can easily lead one to draw that conclusion, so I agree.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So Vince Cable wants a general election? What for?


Masochism?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Masochism?


:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It is hearsay. The report of another person's words by a witness. The people who said it aren't here to refute, or substantiate it. You didn't even actually quote what you heard/read, just gave an idea of what you feel is the gist of it. Hence, sorry, but yep, it's hearsay.
> 
> It doesn't matter, we agree that talking of the Dunkirk spirit in relation to Brexit is idiocy, whichever side you stand on. :Hilarious


Hearsay for you, yes (you heard me say I heard X say...). Primary souce for me (I personally heard X say...)  If not, our legal system is done for! 

And why would I want to inflict the specific details of the muppetry on you - I'm not THAT cruel, and I quite like you... 



Arnie83 said:


> Masochism?


It's the only logical explanation!  :Hilarious


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Hearsay for you, yes (you heard me say I heard X say...). Primary souce for me (I personally heard X say...)


Correct. A witness stating they heard someone say something isn't hearsay. A witness stating someone told them they heard someone say something is.


----------



## Elles

It’s hearsay because the original isn’t available to confirm or refute it. I wouldn’t be allowed to go in court and say I heard someone say something to someone else, unless they were there too. I could be lying, or mistaken.

It wouldn’t be hearsay if I was saying what I’d said.

Plus in this instance it wasn’t even a quote, it was roughly what they thought they meant lol.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I wouldn't be allowed to go in court and say I heard someone say something to someone else, unless they were there too. I could be lying.


Er, yes you would. Just as you could say you saw something.


----------



## Elles

KK quoted some twitter feed or something that was in answer to ww2 comments, saying it’s what bexiteers say and jesthar said they weren’t involved in any conversations themselves, but gave the general gist of what they think people they overheard meant by their discussion. I said that no one on petforums compares Brexit to ww2 and pointed out a Daily Express article by a reporter who’d been to see the film Dunkirk, saying that brexit would be a success because of the Dunkirk spirit, which is the only evidence I can find, of Dunkirk spirit being raised in relation to brexit.

Not that brexit will be as bad as ww2 and the good old British spirit will see us through adversity, but rather that the good old British spirit would prevent it and make brexit a success. A completely different take on it.

Hence without evidence, I call it hearsay and rumourmongering, from a misinterpretation (deliberate?) of an article in the Daily Express, which was written by a reporter looking for an effect. For me it’s remainers who have been recently bringing it up on here as evidence in their favour, not brexiteers. 

As we agree that it’s ridiculous, I don’t know why we’re still discussing it.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Didn't say it was me personally having the discussions - I'm just an avid student of human nature and love people watching.


Sorry but you gave the impression it was. So you overheard other people saying this in real life ? You read it on line on a forum or twitter?

ETA actually, don't bother answering .


----------



## Elles

It’s exactly the same as misquoting Theresa May with your own take on it. For example, she didn’t say there would be more opportunities for young British people, she said there would more opportunities (for young people) in this country. 

Now you could take it to mean that young people who were born in the U.K. will have more opportunities, but if you take what she said literally, that isn’t what she said. She said there would be more opportunities in this country. Here. This country. The U.K. If there are, I’d say it would have nothing to do with her brexit, but her government could make it so if they want to.

Some might think it better if there are more opportunities for young people in this country, rather than their having to leave it to find them. Most don’t get the chance.


----------



## kimthecat

A bit OT. This made laugh .

Larry the cat is waiting for NO 10 door to open and a policeman knocks at the door for him .
In front of him is a reporter talking about Brexit.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...wning-street-cat-can-gain-entry-a3994756.html


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> KK quoted some twitter feed or something that was in answer to ww2 comments, saying it's what bexiteers say and jesthar said they weren't involved in any conversations themselves, but gave the general gist of what they think people they overheard meant by their discussion. I said that no one on petforums compares Brexit to ww2 and pointed out a Daily Express article by a reporter who'd been to see the film Dunkirk, saying that brexit would be a success because of the Dunkirk spirit, which is the only evidence I can find, of Dunkirk spirit being raised in relation to brexit.
> 
> Not that brexit will be as bad as ww2 and the good old British spirit will see us through adversity, but rather that the good old British spirit would prevent it and make brexit a success. A completely different take on it.
> 
> Hence without evidence, I call it hearsay and rumourmongering, from a misinterpretation (deliberate?) of an article in the Daily Express, which was written by a reporter looking for an effect. For me it's remainers who have been recently bringing it up on here as evidence in their favour, not brexiteers.
> 
> As we agree that it's ridiculous, I don't know why we're still discussing it.


You're like a little terrier that won't let go aren't you  

Oh I wish I had your fortitude  Me, most of the time, I can't be arsed


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> A bit OT. This made laugh .
> 
> Larry the cat is waiting for NO 10 door to open and a policeman knocks at the door for him .
> In front of him is a reporter talking about Brexit.
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...wning-street-cat-can-gain-entry-a3994756.html


Larry the chief mouse catcher. Employed by the Government, resident of 10 Downing Street and treated like royalty and loves the attention of the press .


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's exactly the same as misquoting Theresa May with your own take on it. For example, she didn't say there would be more opportunities for young British people, she said there would more opportunities (for young people) in this country.
> 
> Now you could take it to mean that young people who were born in the U.K. will have more opportunities, but if you take what she said literally, that isn't what she said. She said there would be more opportunities in this country. Here. This country. The U.K. If there are, I'd say it would have nothing to do with her brexit, but her government could make it so if they want to.
> 
> Some might think it better if there are more opportunities for young people in this country, rather than their having to leave it to find them. Most don't get the chance.


Whether she's talking about opportunities for the UK's young people here or abroad, I think she's wrong. UK growth will be lower than if we Remained, and that means fewer jobs than would otherwise have been created. And of course they won't be entitled to apply for all the jobs in Europe.


----------



## noushka05

This is so sinister.

_*Thomas Colson*‏Verified account @tpgcolson 4h4 hours ago_
_Jaw-dropping. Peston expands on Sunday Times report that Theresa May and her Cabinet are planning to tank the stock market and_
_ sterling to try and panic backbench MPs into supporting her Brexit deal. _

_ Difficult to understate quite how dangerous this is._


https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2214577345533665/


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Whether she's talking about opportunities for the UK's young people here or abroad, I think she's wrong. UK growth will be lower than if we Remained, and that means fewer jobs than would otherwise have been created. And of course they won't be entitled to apply for all the jobs in Europe.


She didn't say jobs either. The government can invest in all kinds of schemes for young people. It's one of those politics things, that are a vague possibility and which politicians use to try to sound good. We can debate it when we know exactly what it was supposed to mean, plus imho someone should ask her how she expects to bring it about. If she means opportunities in the U.K., jobs outside of it are irrelevant.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Larry the chief mouse catcher. Employed by the Government, resident of 10 Downing Street and treated like royalty and loves the attention of the press .


 I follow him on Twitter


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> She didn't say jobs either. The government can invest in all kinds of schemes for young people. It's one of those politics things, that are a vague possibility and which politicians use to try to sound good. We can debate it when we know exactly what it was supposed to mean, plus imho someone should ask her how she expects to bring it about. If she means opportunities in the U.K., jobs outside of it are irrelevant.


You need money to invest in all kinds of schemes as well. Brexit will reduce what we will have available going forwards.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> You need money to invest in all kinds of schemes as well. Brexit will reduce what we will have available going forwards.


Even so. If we can't import people, we might have to use our own. Kick out all the 75% of abattoir workers that are from Europe and hey presto more opportunities. 

She also didn't say they'd be good ones..


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> She didn't say jobs either. The government can invest in all kinds of schemes for young people. It's one of those politics things, that are a vague possibility and which politicians use to try to sound good. We can debate it when we know exactly what it was supposed to mean, plus imho someone should ask her how she expects to bring it about. If she means opportunities in the U.K., jobs outside of it are irrelevant.


Ah yes, the return of YTS and/or National Service probably.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant!


----------



## KittenKong

https://news.sky.com/story/fears-ov...this-weekend-as-uk-eu-talks-continue-11559692

Seems we were all led to believe the Brexit deal had been finalised earlier in the week with the next step of getting it through parliament!
:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

'Vampires' - what a great description for these soulless bloodsucking parasites!


*Panel of vampires leave their coffins to support no-deal Brexit*

*https://www.thecanary.co/off-the-pe...eave-their-coffins-to-support-no-deal-brexit/*


----------



## KittenKong

Rejoice, we're taking back control!
Coming to your pharmacy, sorry Chemist soon.

I expected the customary Union Jack at the top of this with the slogan, "Britain Taking Back Control".


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Even so. If we can't import people, we might have to use our own. Kick out all the 75% of abattoir workers that are from Europe and hey presto more opportunities.
> 
> She also didn't say they'd be good ones..


We're going to kick out EU workers?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> We're going to kick out EU workers?


Probably, if they earn less than £50,000 a year which will include most working for the NHS.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *Panel of vampires leave their coffins to support no-deal Brexit*
> 
> *https://www.thecanary.co/off-the-pe...eave-their-coffins-to-support-no-deal-brexit/*


I'm not saying that these gentlemen are representative of those who see themselves running a post No Deal Brexit Britain, but you would have thought they might have at least made a token effort at diversity.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> We're going to kick out EU workers?


Probably not, but they're all leaving aren't they? It was just an example of what she could do to create opportunity in this country. 

It's being reported that the delay is in part due to the French wanting our fish and the Spanish wanting our Gibraltar. People are really going to change their minds and be keen to stay in the Eu then.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Probably not, but they're all leaving aren't they? It was just an example of what she could do to create opportunity in this country.
> 
> It's being reported that the delay is in part due to the French wanting our fish and the Spanish wanting our Gibraltar. People are really going to change their minds and be keen to stay in the Eu then.


Makes you wonder what they'll come up next: NHS staff who've contributed so much whether "British" or otherwise being forced to quit or at least made to feel unwelcome so leave the UK despite many years of loyal service, all thanks to Mayrie Le Pen spouting hatred by accusing them of jumping the queue or earning less than £50,000 per annum as most of us do. Not surprising some call her Maysolini.....

It takes three years for a nurse to qualify, seven years for a doctor.

Will they be posters and TV adverts asking us to be patient?

In other words, try not to become a patient for a few years.....


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Probably not, but they're all leaving aren't they? It was just an example of what she could do to create opportunity in this country.
> 
> It's being reported that the delay is in part due to the French wanting our fish and the Spanish wanting our Gibraltar. People are really going to change their minds and be keen to stay in the Eu then.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46297725


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not saying that these gentlemen are representative of those who see themselves running a post No Deal Brexit Britain, but you would have thought they might have at least made a token effort at diversity.


I'm sure if you asked them there would be some who preferred a cognac to a port after dinner. That's about as diverse as you're going to get I reckon


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46297725


Been saying that for over two years. "We hold all the cards" remember?

Hope they'll at least reprimand her for her disgusting comments about EU citizens jumping the queue.

If they do, expect her back on National tv accusing the EU of bullying her.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Been saying that for over two years. "We hold all the cards" remember?


Do you remember that brilliant (& really funny:Hilarious) tweet made way back in 2016?. Its been obvious from the very beginning, despite all the lies to the contrary, that we were always in a dire position. We are just cutting our nose off to spite our face.

*
EU lays down a royal flush.

UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool.*
*







*


----------



## Elles

We aren’t. We (with the Eu’s help) are making leaving as difficult as possible, so that eventually we either give up and stay in, or leave in name only. The Eu only hold any cards at all, if we want to stay in, or make a deal with them. If we don’t, all they have is an empty packet.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Been saying that for over two years. "We hold all the cards" remember?
> 
> Hope they'll at least reprimand her for her disgusting comments about EU citizens jumping the queue.
> 
> If they do, expect her back on National tv accusing the EU of bullying her.


According to to what I've heard on CNN News this morning the hold up is due to Spain's last minute threat to veto the agreement over Gibraltar.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/20/uk/gibraltar-brexit-veto-may-gbr-intl/index.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> According to to what I've heard on CNN News this morning the hold up is due to Spain's last minute threat to veto the agreement over Gibraltar.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/20/uk/gibraltar-brexit-veto-may-gbr-intl/index.html


That is what I heard.
EU Leaders are trying to stop Spain using their Veto and they have fallen out over this or something to this effect. To be honest I am only taking half and interest now as it looks like even with the opposition towards it May's deal will get through even if it is with a slim majority because EU Leaders are happy with it.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> We aren't. We (with the Eu's help) are making leaving as difficult as possible, so that eventually we either give up and stay in, or leave in name only. The Eu only hold any cards at all, if we want to stay in, or make a deal with them. If we don't, all they have is an empty packet.


Putting it this way, by joining PF I must abide by the rules. If I didn't like them I would leave.

Being a member of PF allows me to voice my opinions to a moderator if I disagreed with any of the rules and can put forward my own ideas they could accept, or reject. I must respect their final decision.

It's very much the same with negotiating with the EU, as if May wants a deal with them after leaving she must accept them, or walk away.

Of course the EU hold all the cards and so they should.

I disagree that May is a remainer. How can she reduce her immigration targets if she can't target nationals from other EU countries and introduce them to her hostile environment policy?

Only she wants a deal with the EU, expecting them on her terms and whinging about being bullied on national tv if she can not get her way.

If I ran a website and a member left, but still wanted notifications I would be pretty miffed if the former member tried to dictate to me how I should run my webpage, though if still a member I would listen to any suggestions and act upon them if they were good.

Just as May tries with the EU! Damn cheek if you ask me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It looks like the political declaration has been extended to 26 page document was agreed to in the early hours of this morning. A step closer to leaving the EU (I have attached the document to this post) whatever that will be.









https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...tches-normal-in-eu-negotiations-politics-live

May is to address the House of Commons today with this development.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It looks like the political declaration has been extended to 26 page document was agreed to in the early hours of this morning. A step closer to leaving the EU (I have attached the document to this post) whatever that will be.
> View attachment 377124
> 
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...tches-normal-in-eu-negotiations-politics-live
> 
> May is to address the House of Commons today with this development.
> 
> View attachment 377126


This is what The Independent reported:


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This is what The Independent reported:
> View attachment 377131
> View attachment 377132
> View attachment 377133
> View attachment 377134


They only need 20 countries to say yes to it for it to go through so they can afford 7 countries to object.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> They only need 20 countries to say yes to it for it to go through so they can afford 7 countries to object.


Hmmm, the way I read it, we'll have the border checks and controls even with no objections. Could be wrong, only just had my coffee!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Hmmm, the way I read it, we'll have the border checks and controls even with no objections. Could be wrong, only just had my coffee!


I was talking about the votes needed for the document to get through. Not had a chance to read it yet as still waking up myself.


----------



## Arnie83

Faisal Islam's analysis of some of the leaked document, which I don't think is available yet.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1065551181970317312/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-brexit-thread.123823/page-1535

To me it looks like another can-kicking exercise. It's got aspirations for all sides to be happy with the outcome of the next two years of negotiations. But we already know it doesn't work that way.

Will Parliament be happy to leave the EU with no clear future?


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 2h2 hours ago
David Schneider Retweeted Shehab Khan

320,000 people homeless 
14m people in poverty 
4.5m kids in poverty 
1.5m people destitute 
Soaring foodbank usage

Tory solution:

Make everyone poorer

*Shehab Khan*‏Verified account @ShehabKhan
*The Chancellor, Phillip Hammond, has essentially admitted that Brexit will make us poorer and said there are "political" reasons to leave the EU.

Let that sink in.

*


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> To me it looks like another can-kicking exercise


Sure is. How can it have taken all this time and drama to get to "we'll decide the details later"?


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Sure is. How can it have taken all this time and drama to get to "we'll decide the details later"?


Pretty sure governmental infighting, a frivolous General Election and thirty six Brexit Secretaries before breakfast didn't help...


----------



## Magyarmum

The latest news from France 24

https://www.france24.com/en/2018112...lationship-after-brexit-await-summit-approval


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Putting it this way, by joining PF I must abide by the rules. If I didn't like them I would leave.
> 
> Being a member of PF allows me to voice my opinions to a moderator if I disagreed with any of the rules and can put forward my own ideas they could accept, or reject. I must respect their final decision.
> 
> It's very much the same with negotiating with the EU, as if May wants a deal with them after leaving she must accept them, or walk away.
> 
> Of course the EU hold all the cards and so they should.
> 
> I disagree that May is a remainer. How can she reduce her immigration targets if she can't target nationals from other EU countries and introduce them to her hostile environment policy?
> 
> Only she wants a deal with the EU, expecting them on her terms and whinging about being bullied on national tv if she can not get her way.
> 
> If I ran a website and a member left, but still wanted notifications I would be pretty miffed if the former member tried to dictate to me how I should run my webpage, though if still a member I would listen to any suggestions and act upon them if they were good.
> 
> Just as May tries with the EU! Damn cheek if you ask me.


Taking your analogy, if petforums, or your website was run in part with your money, on your computer and you wanted to leave, they might want to try to negotiate to keep the computer, if not the money.

The sticking points appear to be access to fishing in British water and control of Gibraltar. Neither belong to the Eu, but Eu members want them.


----------



## noushka05

*Shahmir Sanni*‏ @shahmiruk 6h6 hours ago
*GOOD MORNING*. Vote Leave has lost its legal challenge. It is now undeniable. The referendum was won by criminal activity. 
It's time we stop this madness and have a full public inquiry into this web of corruption.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-legal-challenge-over-brexit-spending-breach


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Shahmir Sanni*‏ @shahmiruk 6h6 hours ago
> *GOOD MORNING*. Vote Leave has lost its legal challenge. It is now undeniable. The referendum was won by criminal activity.
> It's time we stop this madness and have a full public inquiry into this web of corruption.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-legal-challenge-over-brexit-spending-breach


Where did the spend on the remain leaflet sent out to the electorate get recorded?


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Where did the spend on the remain leaflet sent out to the electorate get recorded?


It was probably in the official government spending figures, wasn't it? Are you suggesting it was illegal?


----------



## Arnie83

You can read the full 26 page document here, should you so wish ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/22/brexit-leaked-political-declaration-in-full


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> It was probably in the official government spending figures, wasn't it? Are you suggesting it was illegal?


I'm suggesting it was part of the remain campaign.


----------



## Elles

Remain had been fined too and are also under investigation.

There are investigations and appeals all over the place. Maybe they need to make it clearer what they can and can’t do and what constitutes criminal activity. 

It’s not going to force a second referendum regardless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's already had a debate on this in Westminster Hall and have agreed that what was said during the campaigning is not going to cause the result to be overturned or a second referendum to be triggered.

Here is the petition I am referring to that triggered a debate in Westminster hall on the 10th September 2018 on this subject:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729

Remain campaigners broke rules to and got fined as well but some remainers seem to forget this.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I'm suggesting it was part of the remain campaign.


It was the governments duty to inform the public what they think is best for the country.



Elles said:


> Remain had been fined too and are also under investigation.
> 
> There are investigations and appeals all over the place. Maybe they need to make it clearer what they can and can't do and what constitutes criminal activity.
> 
> It's not going to force a second referendum regardless.


Remain _did not _break the law & if they did, it would be just another reason to rule the referendum invalid.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Remain had been fined too and are also under investigation.
> 
> There are investigations and appeals all over the place. Maybe they need to make it clearer what they can and can't do and what constitutes criminal activity.
> 
> It's not going to force a second referendum regardless.


The Electoral Commission rejected Patel's complaints back in August, and although a group was being investigated for hosting another group's video on its website, it didn't come to anything as far as I know.

Only the Leave campaign has been referred for criminal investigation.

(Not directed especially at you Elles.) It really is time everyone stopped trying to make out that Leave and Remain groups were equally culpable, either in breaking the law / rules or in lying to the voters. It doesn't and won't make any difference anyway, because the 2016 result isn't going to change.

The only important thing going forwards is whether Parliament accept May's deal for a Blexit (!), how they stop a No Deal if they don't, and whether the People get the chance to choose which option they prefer.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> I'm suggesting it was part of the remain campaign.


Not the official one, and therefore within the rules.

If there is another referendum, with May's deal on offer, I expect the Government will send another leaflet around recommending their position.

Maybe they should use Russian money so we don't have to fork out for it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remains Project Fear Lies: http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6829/remain_s_project_fear_lies_should_fool_no_one

*Remainer Brexit scares and reality*
https://www.politico.eu/article/acc...referendum-claims-have-panned-out-so-far/amp/

*Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror*
https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt...nVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=l9mGnSjdMrq5fXfnnpmgxg



> Remainers seem to continuously paint themselves as having the monopoly on morality: they are the virtuous ones, the truth-tellers, the fact-checkers.
> 
> The entire Remain campaign in 2016 was crafted on a strategy to intimidate voters with scare-stories. Countless falsehoods were told by Remainer advocates, many of which have been swept under the carpet: such is the privilege of losing in politics.
> 
> What makes Project Fear so shameless is the fact that after so many Remain lies, and forecasts which have been proven to be categorically wrong, they still continue.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Electoral commission fines Remain campaigners £19,000*
http://amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Remains Project Fear Lies: http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6829/remain_s_project_fear_lies_should_fool_no_one
> 
> *Remainer Brexit scares and reality*
> https://www.politico.eu/article/acc...referendum-claims-have-panned-out-so-far/amp/
> 
> *Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror*
> https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt...nVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=l9mGnSjdMrq5fXfnnpmgxg


It's probably salient to point out that as we technically haven't left yet and therefore as a country we're still operating as we did before the referendum EU wise, a number of the dismissed scenarios won't have had the chance to arise yet.


----------



## Elles

They're as bad as each other as groups imo. I think that the leave camp had more unsavoury characters than the remain camp, but I can't know who is in the background, doing what. The wealthy generally want to hang onto their money and plenty don't think they are wealthy, because there's usually someone in their circle more wealthy than they are. There are plenty of wealthy and influential people with an agenda on both sides of the debate.

One of the people fined for it was a 22 year old running a youth group, taking donations and fined for paying the same Canadian company for Facebook campaigns. That's a reason for calling the whole thing off? I don't think so.

I agree @Arnie83 it doesn't matter, none of these investigations are going to bring about a second referendum.

Bringing up what leave (or remain) campaigners have done wrong, isn't going to change anything.

How it turns out after brexit depends on the kind of deal or no deal is negotiated. It could be easy enough I feel for Remain campaigners in government to make their predictions come true. They seem to me to be threats, more than predictions tbh.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> It's probably salient to point out that as we technically haven't left yet and therefore as a country we're still operating as we did before the referendum EU wise, a number of the dismissed scenarios won't have had the chance to arise yet.


The predictions though where of the immediate aftermathe of if the country *voted to leave* to scare people into voting remain. None of the predictions where if leave/brexit happened. So remain voters should look in the mirror as their campaign was built on lies.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> .


You might want to read through that lol.

(Edited )


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> You might want to read through that lol.


I saw the mistakes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> You might want to read through that lol.


Changed the obvious mistake. Sorry about that.

If you refresh the page it is corrected


----------



## Arnie83

It might be worth pointing out that George Osborne, who threatened an austerity budget if there was a No vote, was emasculated the day after the referendum and sacked a few weeks later.

On the other hand, pointing that out might just kick off another round of completely pointless to-ing and fro-ing.

So I won't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It doesn't matter now.

The UK is almost at the end goal of the initial divorce with the EU so there's no point going over old ground in the hope that it will some how change by remainers what if'ing. What happened, happened.

The EU are happy with the deal and MP's that bother reading it are coming around to liking the deal and business leaders seem to be satisfied.

My worry if I was a remainer would be May saying about the risk of a no Brexit happening as I don't think she really means that a second referendum will happen and if you are building your hopes on it happening you are going to be deeply disappointed. But I am not a remainer so don't have to worry about this.

I do feel some how this withdrawal agreement will get through Parliament but it will be a close vote. I am against this agreement for obvious reasons but if it is what is agreed to move on to the next 20 months to 2 years of negotiations so be it.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The predictions though were of the immediate aftermathe of the country voting to leave to scare people into voting remain. None of the predictions were of if the country should leave. So leave voters should look in the mirror as their campaign was built on lies.


It's politics. Truth is a rare thing in politics.  Personally I don't agree with the perspective of them all being immediate aftermath predictions - some will only really be felt when we actually leave, so it would be imprudent to dismiss them just yet.

That said, neither side has a working crystal ball, logical extrapolation can only go so far, and I'm not going to get into whose campaign was the biggest pile of bovine doo-doo as neither was small and throwing the stuff around again serves no useful purpose.

The only prediction of which I am relatively confident is that for at least the next ten years many political, social and economic woes will somehow spuriously be blamed on Brexit for no logical reason


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> My worry if I was a remainer would be May saying about the risk of a no Brexit happening as I don't think she really means that a second referendum will happen


So when she says in Parliament that voting down the WA risks "no Brexit at all" What _do_ you think she means?


----------



## Elles

Could be parliament not us. The first referendum was non binding advisory, a second one would be too and risks a second leave vote. I still think at this current time, especially with the French and Spanish sticking their oar in, a second referendum would be too risky for Remainers.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So when she says in Parliament that voting down the WA risks "no Brexit at all" What _do_ you think she means?


I think it is an empty threat to make MP's vote for the deal. Remember what she said towards the end her speech in Parliament. Which gives me the impression she is not going to follow through with the no brexit at all warning. It is a warning shot if you like at the remainer MP's threatening to oust her with a no confidence vote or a warning shot at MP's causing her trouble in her party to get the vote through.

I agree with what @Elles said above.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Farmers Unions, CBI, Business Leaders, European Union Leaders, are all behind this agreement now. We have been told this in the last 10 minutes in Parliament.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Could be parliament not us. The first referendum was non binding advisory, a second one would be too and risks a second leave vote. I still think at this current time, especially with the French and Spanish sticking their oar in, a second referendum would be too risky for Remainers.


It wouldn't surprise me at all if Remain didn't come out on top of the various options on offer, but then it's not about winning, it's about democracy. The People haven't had a chance to make an informed decision, and should have.

The trouble now, of course, is that there is still no definitive information, and won't be until the negotiations copiously mentioned in the 26 page political document are completed, which won't be for a few years yet. Perhaps then we can go back to the People.

Incidentally, why wouldn't a new referendum be binding, if Parliament chose to deem it so?


----------



## Britt

I wish "she" would leave but I don't know who the next PM should be. I liked both Gordon Brown and David Cameron.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Incidentally, why wouldn't a new referendum be binding, if Parliament chose to deem it so?


It has to non-binding so if the EU does go to pot the UK people can vote to get out. As you keep saying in case people change their minds.

The next round of negotiations won't have from what I understand have the negitators that are currently in charge in the EU negotiations like Junker etc in them.


----------



## Jonescat

Of course it will get through Parliament. Tories don't rebel, they just throw toys around the room and get what concessions they can, the DUP have nothing to gain from being out of power, as they will be if the the Tories are out, and that is all it takes.


----------



## Elles

Don’t quote me on it, but I think it would need a change in the law for a referendum to be legally binding and you don’t really want it to be. What if we vote leave with no deal, then change our minds again in a few years. In 20 years time there will be a lot of new faces and who knows where the Eu and Europe will be then.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The predictions though where of the immediate aftermathe of if the country *voted to leave* to scare people into voting remain. None of the predictions where if leave/brexit happened. So remain voters should look in the mirror as their campaign was built on lies.


Many of us on the left listened to key remain campaigners in the progressive camp - and they have been proven to be extremely accurate.



Elles said:


> One of the people fined for it was a 22 year old running a youth group, taking donations and fined for paying the same Canadian company for Facebook campaigns. That's a reason for calling the whole thing off? I don't think so.


Its far more sinister than that Elles. Aaron Banks is now under investigation. The FBI are interested in Farage. White supremacist/fascist Steve Bannon and hostile forces where behind the leave campaign AND Trump. Both were funded by dark money.

Please read my post which was dismissed as a conspiracy theory, its getting murkier and murkier as the investigations go on (investigations here & across the pond)

. Bannon is currently 'advising' Hungarys far right president Orban. His aim is to whip up his toxic right wing popularism right across Europe and destroy the EU. He is a highly dangerous individual. We need to take this seriously if we believe in peace and democracy. _Lest we forget._

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...d-by-election-laws?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

Carole Cadwalladr's journalism has been outstanding, doing what all journalists should be doing - holding power to account.

_*Carole Cadwalladr*
NEW: the extraordinary emails that show Banks seeking Steve Bannon's help to raise $$$ in US for Brexit. Bannon & Banks in close communication as Banks is offered "gold & diamond deals" by Russian ambassador named in Mueller indictmen_ts https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/17/arron-banks-emails-steve-bannon-brexit-campaign-funds?CMP=share_btn_tw …

And guess where Moggs 'Global Britain' hang out?

*Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor Nov 20
Jessica Simor QC Retweeted Steve Baker MP

_Oh look....Global Britain is another completely opaque neo-liberal front parading as a think tank: https://globalbritain.co.uk/. No Board, no trustees no declared donors. Nor is their address visible...except they left it here on the cover of one of their previous reports.......1/,

Yes - you guessed it - it's *55 Tufton Stre*_*et*






























noushka05 said:


> 'Vampires' - what a great description for these soulless bloodsucking parasites!
> 
> 
> *Panel of vampires leave their coffins to support no-deal Brexit*
> 
> *https://www.thecanary.co/off-the-pe...eave-their-coffins-to-support-no-deal-brexit/*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Many of us on the left listened to key remain campaigners in the progressive camp - and they have been proven to be extremely accurate.


OK if you say so 

I am neither right or left but straight down the middle 

After 2 years of the ongoing rhetoric from remainers I honestly will leave it there as it gets tiresome listening to the hissy fits they keep having believing they are right and only their opinion counts when they are just repeating Cameron's and Osborne's project fear campaign. Yet Cameron recently said he backs TM's agreement. Strange that seeing as he was against leaving full stop.


----------



## Elles

Sad isn't it that some Remainers would have liked to have taken away his right to vote, because he's too old and the young know better.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-46287955

*Harry Leslie Smith: Thousands send support to ill veteran*


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Don't quote me on it, but I think it would need a change in the law for a referendum to be legally binding and you don't really want it to be. What if we vote leave with no deal, then change our minds again in a few years. In 20 years time there will be a lot of new faces and who knows where the Eu and Europe will be then.


You are right - I looked it up - a referendum is not binding.

If we vote leave with no deal - and I wouldn't be surprised - then the movement for re-entry would start. But as you say, over 20 years much changes, so I wouldn't predict anything further.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It is amazing that a simple trade agreement turned into what the EU is today. The UK did not sign up to what the EU is today. The UK signed the trade agreement proposed at the time and had no say about moving into the EU. No referendum. No peoples vote. No say. The UK was moved into what is known as the EU against it's will. Shoot me down as much as you want. But it is time the UK left as the EU is not was what the UK signed up to.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> OK if you say so
> 
> I am neither right or left but straight down the middle
> 
> After 2 years of the ongoing rhetoric from remainers I honestly will leave it there as it gets tiresome listening to the hissy fits they keep having believing they are right and only their opinion counts.


Apparently, because I care about the environment and social justice, I'm a lefty, a loony lefty, leftard, libtard, snowflake. Because I oppose bloodsports I'm a bunny hugger. And because i'm an activist I'm an extremist. So many labels, I may as well own them - they are like a badges of honour to me now:Smuggrin

Hissy fits?  You are the only one who keeps stomping of the threads


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Sad isn't it that some Remainers would have liked to have taken away his right to vote, because he's too old and *the young know better. *


I don't think that was the reason for that rather silly suggestion. It was that the young had to live with the result for a lot longer.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It is amazing that a simple trade agreement turned into what the EU is today. The UK did not sign up to what the EU is today. The UK signed the trade agreement proposed at the time and had no say about moving into the EU. No referendum. No peoples vote. No say. The UK was moved into what is known as the EU against it's will. Shoot me down as much as you want. But it is time the UK left as the EU is not was what the UK signed up to.


The ECSC / EEC / EU was never a simple trade agreement. Read the Treaty of Paris 1951.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think that was the reason for that rather silly suggestion. It was that the young had to live with the result for a lot longer.


So do people in their 20's/30's/40's/50's/60's/70's/80's/90's etc. It is wrong to say just the young will have to live with the result. Everyone living in the UK and Gibraltar will have to live with what happens. The "young" whatever that implies may get to vote again in the future or thank those that voted leave. Heck I might be around and you if a future vote was to take place. We will all have to live with what happens in between.

Why be agest about this?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Sad isn't it that some Remainers would have liked to have taken away his right to vote, because he's too old and the young know better.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-46287955
> 
> *Harry Leslie Smith: Thousands send support to ill veteran*


I can't speak for dear, wonderful Harry, but I follow him and I know we share the same values so I'm not sure he'd be too happy with the way you're using him like this. Harry is totally opposed to brexit. (I am really worried about him, he is an inspiration to so many of us)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The ECSC / EEC / EU was never a simple trade agreement. Read the Treaty of Rome 1951.


Doesn't matter the point is we never voted to be a member of the EU. No Peoples Vote. No Referendum. No vote.


----------



## Elles

Tbh I don’t really feel like I do have more information than I did 2 years ago. 2 years ago I thought I’d like to see an end to the Eu and for us to leave it, but that our government would make a pig’s ear out of it and it would adversely effect too many people, so I voted remain. Nothing’s changed for me, other than if we did get a second chance I would seriously consider changing my vote, depending on the options we were offered.

I care about the environment, the nhs, the less advantaged and vulnerable in our society, animal welfare (have been an activist in the past) oppose bloodsports and killing animals for any reason, so don’t think any worse of someone who shoots a pheasant than someone who eats a chicken. No one sticks those labels on me. Actually, I lie. They do, Ive been called all kind of things, but irl not here. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

I saw the article about Harry and it immediately struck me that some on here and outside of it want to take the vote away from people like him. I think it’s disgusting and wanted to point it out to those ageist people who have said it. I hope they’re ashamed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Apparently, because I care about the environment and social justice, I'm a lefty, a loony lefty, leftard, libtard, snowflake. Because I oppose bloodsports I'm a bunny hugger. And because i'm an activist I'm an extremist. So many labels, I may as well own them - they are like a badges of honour to me now:Smuggrin
> 
> Hissy fits?  You are the only one who keeps stomping of the threads


We can care for the environment, wild life and even improve on animal welfare outside of the EU. Why not? I do care for the NHS, other people and all the above and social justice. Just because I voted leave does not mean I do not care. Why can't the UK become a worldwide leader in all of the above outside of the EU?

Sorry if given a second vote I would vote leave again and so would everyone I know.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I care about the environment, the nhs, the less advantaged and vulnerable in our society, animal welfare (have been an activist in the past) oppose bloodsports and killing animals for any reason, so don't think any worse of someone who shoots a pheasant than someone who eats a chicken. No one sticks those labels on me. Actually, I lie. They do, Ive been called all kind of things, but irl not here


Even climate scientists on social media get called leftys all the time by those on the 'right':Wtf


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> We can care for the environment, wild life and even improve on animal welfare outside of the EU. Why not? I do care for the NHS, other people and all the above and social justice. Just because I voted leave does not mean I do not care. Why can't the UK become a worldwide leader in all of the above outside of the EU?
> 
> Sorry if given a second vote I would vote leave again and so would everyone I know.


I must have posted a million times 'why not' and you have dismissed it every time. Please try reading the post you ridiculed as a conspiracy theory - that would be a start to understanding - 'why not'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I must have posted a million times 'why not' and you have dismissed it every time. Please try reading the post you ridiculed as a conspiracy theory - that would be a start to understanding - 'why not'.


The Tories will not always be in power. We have something called democracy in this country. Politics may change completely and we have a system like Switzerland that if change is wanted it is voted on by the general public. There system works and there country is very wealthy.

We could (as in the UK) still be world leaders in what I said above. Why not? I understand that you have voiced your opinion. Open your mind a little


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The Tories will not always be in power. We have something called democracy in this country. Politics may change completely and we have a system like Switzerland that if change is wanted it is voted on by the general public. There system works and there country is very wealthy.
> 
> We could (as in the UK) still be world leaders in what I said above. Why not? I understand that you have voiced your opinion. Open your mind a little


World leaders? Seriously We're going to be insular little Englanders. I formed my opinions on evidence that you refuse to see. I prefer to face reality thank you.

The tories are gerrymandering, they have most of the media on side. brexit is a right wing power grab, Mays withdrawal agreement ties the hands of a progressive government.

Worst of all Brexit is a massive distraction from the things that REALLY matter - it couldn't have happened at a worst time in our history when we do not have time to waste.

This isn't some conspiracy theory >>>>

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 5h5 hours ago







*Carbon dioxide has reached levels not seen in 3-5 million years*.







*All the lights on the Earth's dashboard are flashing*.







*We need urgent and radical action on climate change now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46289829

........*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> World leaders? Seriously We're going to be insular little Englanders. I formed my opinions on evidence that you refuse to see. I prefer to face reality thank you.
> 
> The tories are gerrymandering, they have most of the media on side. brexit is a right wing power grab, Mays withdrawal agreement ties the hands of a progressive government.
> 
> Worst of all Brexit is a massive distraction from the things that REALLY matter - it couldn't have happened at a worst time in our history when we do not have time to waste.
> 
> This isn't some conspiracy theory >>>>
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 5h5 hours ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Carbon dioxide has reached levels not seen in 3-5 million years*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *All the lights on the Earth's dashboard are flashing*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *We need urgent and radical action on climate change now
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46289829
> 
> ........*


See it is negative input like this that is causing alot of friction between remain supporters and leave supporters. It is therefore not necessary to continue this conversation as you do go a bit over the top I have noticed previously. So I think we should just leave things there 

Other countries in the EU have been fined over emissions etc not just the UK.

How can there be a future when remainers are stuck in the past?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> See it is negative input like this that is causing alot of friction between remain supporters and leave supporters. It is therefore not necessary to continue this conversation as you do go a bit over the top I have noticed previously. So I think we should just leave things there
> 
> Other countries in the EU have been fined over emissions etc not just the UK.
> 
> How can there be a future when remainers are stuck in the past?


Our civilisation is the verge of collapse - there wont be a future SWC. Please try to understand - https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ophic-food-shortages-says-study-10336406.html


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So do people in their 20's/30's/40's/50's/60's/70's/80's/90's etc. It is wrong to say just the young will have to live with the result. Everyone living in the UK and Gibraltar will have to live with what happens. The "young" whatever that implies may get to vote again in the future or thank those that voted leave. Heck I might be around and you if a future vote was to take place. We will all have to live with what happens in between.
> 
> Why be agest about this?


Absolutely. That's why I said it was a rather silly suggestion.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Doesn't matter the point is we never voted to be a member of the EU. No Peoples Vote. No Referendum. No vote.


Indeed. In those days Parliament knew how to take decisions in the best interests of the country.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Our civilisation is the verge of collapse - there wont be a future SWC. Please try to understand - https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ophic-food-shortages-says-study-10336406.html


So stop worrying about whether we stay in the Eu or not?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed. In those days Parliament knew how to take decisions in the best interests of the country.


I disagree but hey ho.

The Governments of yesterday are no better than the Governments of today.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So stop worrying about whether we stay in the Eu or not?


We know our best hope of addressing it is together with our neighbours, so,no Elles I wont stop worrying about brexit. I love my children and nature far too much for that. Brexit is a massive dangerous distraction, it has already created chaos & is draining resources. I intend to fight it to the bitter end. .

.


*.*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Many of us on the left listened to key remain campaigners in the progressive camp - and they have been proven to be extremely accurate.
> 
> Its far more sinister than that Elles. Aaron Banks is now under investigation. The FBI are interested in Farage. White supremacist/fascist Steve Bannon and hostile forces where behind the leave campaign AND Trump. Both were funded by dark money.
> 
> Please read my post which was dismissed as a conspiracy theory, its getting murkier and murkier as the investigations go on (investigations here & across the pond)
> 
> . * Bannon is currently 'advising' Hungarys far right president Orban. His aim is to whip up his toxic right wing popularism right across Europe and destroy the EU. He is a highly dangerous individual. We need to take this seriously if we believe in peace and democracy. *_*Lest we forget*._
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...d-by-election-laws?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
> 
> Carole Cadwalladr's journalism has been outstanding, doing what all journalists should be doing - holding power to account.
> 
> _*Carole Cadwalladr*
> NEW: the extraordinary emails that show Banks seeking Steve Bannon's help to raise $$$ in US for Brexit. Bannon & Banks in close communication as Banks is offered "gold & diamond deals" by Russian ambassador named in Mueller indictmen_ts https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/17/arron-banks-emails-steve-bannon-brexit-campaign-funds?CMP=share_btn_tw …
> 
> And guess where Moggs 'Global Britain' hang out?
> 
> *Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor Nov 20
> Jessica Simor QC Retweeted Steve Baker MP
> 
> _Oh look....Global Britain is another completely opaque neo-liberal front parading as a think tank: https://globalbritain.co.uk/. No Board, no trustees no declared donors. Nor is their address visible...except they left it here on the cover of one of their previous reports.......1/
> 
> Yes - you guessed it - it's *55 Tufton Stre*_*et*


. Bannon is currently 'advising' Hungarys far right president Orban. His aim is to whip up his toxic right wing popularism right across Europe and destroy the EU. He is a highly dangerous individual. We need to take this seriously if we believe in peace and democracy. _Lest we forget._
_
That's not correct! The wording was that Bannon is "planning" to work with Orban. However according to the article below this has not yet been confirmed by the Hungarian government,

https://kafkadesk.org/2018/11/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-teams-up-with-viktor-orban/

It would seem also that Bannon's "Movement" isn't doing as well as he expected ...

https://www.dw.com/en/eastern-europe-steve-bannons-absent-partner/a-45652247

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...ns-far-right-movement-stalled-in-europe-video

Can't stand the man myself He always looks as though he needs a darn good bath and a change of clothes.

Another small point Orban is not the President of Hungary - he's the Prime Minister. The President of Hungary is Janos Ader









_


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> . Bannon is currently 'advising' Hungarys far right president Orban. His aim is to whip up his toxic right wing popularism right across Europe and destroy the EU. He is a highly dangerous individual. We need to take this seriously if we believe in peace and democracy. _Lest we forget.
> 
> That's not correct! The wording was that Bannon is "planning" to work with Orban. However according to the article below this has not yet been confirmed by the Hungarian government,
> 
> https://kafkadesk.org/2018/11/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-teams-up-with-viktor-orban/
> 
> It would seem also that Bannon's "Movement" isn't doing as well as he expected ...
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/eastern-europe-steve-bannons-absent-partner/a-45652247
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/global/...ns-far-right-movement-stalled-in-europe-video
> 
> Can't stand the man myself He always looks as though he needs a darn good bath and a change of clothes.
> 
> Another small point Orban is not the President of Hungary - he's the Prime Minister. The President of Hungary is Janos Ader
> 
> View attachment 377215
> _


It's good that he's running into headwinds, but we need to keep a close eye on this man. He has already tried with America, and he could nudge Europe down a _very_ dangerous path.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I saw the article about Harry and it immediately struck me that some on here and outside of it want to take the vote away from people like him. I think it's disgusting and wanted to point it out to those ageist people who have said it. I hope they're ashamed.


I haven't heard anyone on here say they want to take the vote away from people like him. I've seen a lot of jokes & satire on twitter but thats about it. I fall into one of the age groups which predominantly voted leave lol

Harry though, did so much to encourage youngsters to get out and vote, he cares about them. He also knows how reckless brexit is. He is so wise and kind and VERY savvy. Hes lovely.

....

*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account @Harryslaststand 5 Feb 2017
It's reckless & irresponsible for politicians to advocate #brexit at this time considering how close the world is to the brink of calamity

*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account @Harryslaststand 28 Jun 2016
The two greatest sadnesses for me over #*Brexit* are how it repudiates the future for our youth and condemns are vulnerable to more hardship

*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account @Harryslaststand 4 Feb 2017
Make no mistake b/c of #*brexit* the lives of your children & grandchildren will tragically resemble my days of youth

*Brexit threatens everything I fought for in the Second World War. On my 95th birthday, this is what I need people to know*
Unlike today, no political party in my youth advocated the isolation that Brexit will bring to Britain. Instead all insisted that our military and political survival depended on cooperation and integration with other nation

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...k-a8225826.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's good that he's running into headwinds, but we need to keep a close eye on this man. He has already tried with America, and he could nudge Europe down a _very_ dangerous path.


Europes on a dangerous path without him with the rise of the far right across Europe. History repeating itself?


----------



## Magyarmum

Just arrived in my inbox

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...-between-european-union-and-united-kingdom_en


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> . Bannon is currently 'advising' Hungarys far right president Orban. His aim is to whip up his toxic right wing popularism right across Europe and destroy the EU. He is a highly dangerous individual. We need to take this seriously if we believe in peace and democracy. _Lest we forget.
> 
> That's not correct! The wording was that Bannon is "planning" to work with Orban. However according to the article below this has not yet been confirmed by the Hungarian government,
> 
> https://kafkadesk.org/2018/11/20/former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon-teams-up-with-viktor-orban/
> 
> It would seem also that Bannon's "Movement" isn't doing as well as he expected ...
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/eastern-europe-steve-bannons-absent-partner/a-45652247
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/global/...ns-far-right-movement-stalled-in-europe-video
> 
> Can't stand the man myself He always looks as though he needs a darn good bath and a change of clothes.
> 
> Another small point Orban is not the President of Hungary - he's the Prime Minister. The President of Hungary is Janos Ader
> 
> View attachment 377215
> _


My mistake, you're right @Magyarmum , hes isnt advising him, but planning to work with him. And apologies for getting Orbans title wrong too.

Bannon is evil personified (and he needs a good bath! lol )he has infected the US with his poision, undermined democracy here in the UK & he is seeking to destabilise Europe. As Arnie says we all need to be extremely vigilant.

.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It's good that he's running into headwinds, but we need to keep a close eye on this man. He has already tried with America, and he could nudge Europe down a _very_ dangerous path.


I think you'll find he won't have much success in Eastern Europe, mainly because it's only been 30 years since the Communists were kicked out and too many people still remember what life was like as a Soviet satellite country

Orban for example was about 26 years old at the time, and I can't imagine him taking kindly to being told by an outsider especially an American with a dubious track record "advising" (telling) him what to do and how to run the country when he's already run it successfully since 2010 and before that from 1998 to 2002.

Just my opinion for what it's worth!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> My mistake, you're right @Magyarmum , hes isnt advising him, but planning to work with him. And apologies for getting Orbans title wrong too.
> 
> Bannon is evil personified (and he needs a good bath! lol )he has infected the US with his poision, undermined democracy here in the UK & he is seeking to destabilise Europe. As Arnie says we all need to be extremely vigilant.
> 
> .


No problem Noushka .... at least we can agree on something even if it's only about Bannon's personal hygiene!


----------



## Elles

People on here have said that older people shouldn't be able to vote and they've said it more than once. I objected to it. It might even be you @noushka05 who was one of the people who expressed the sentiment, or at least agreed with it. I pointed out how ageism seemed to be an acceptable ism, now that racism and sexism were no longer acceptable and asked what age would be the cut off.

Harry and people like him would fall into that category and have the vote taken from them.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I think you'll find he won't have much success in Eastern Europe, mainly because it's only been 30 years since the Communists were kicked out and too many people still remember what life was like as a Soviet satellite country
> 
> Orban for example was about 26 years old at the time, and I can't imagine him taking kindly to being told by an outsider especially an American with a dubious track record "advising" (telling) him what to do and how to run the country when he's already run it successfully since 2010 and before that from 1998 to 2002.
> 
> Just my opinion for what it's worth!


Bannon says Orban is hero of the populist movement. Speaks volumes about Orban.

............................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> No problem Noushka .... at least we can agree on something even if it's only about Bannon's personal hygiene!


Thank you.

We can - he is a scruff lol


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> People on here have said that older people shouldn't be able to vote and they've said it more than once. I objected to it. It might even be you @noushka05 who was one of the people who expressed the sentiment, or at least agreed with it. I pointed out how ageism seemed to be an acceptable ism, now that racism and sexism were no longer acceptable and asked what age would be the cut off.
> 
> Harry and people like him would fall into that category and have the vote taken from them.


Elles, I have never said older people shouldn't be able to vote. I dont recall seeing anyone else say it either.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> No problem Noushka .... at least we can agree on something even if it's only about Bannon's personal hygiene!


Apart from that. He does have a certain appeal, don't you think?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Probably not, but they're all leaving aren't they? It was just an example of what she could do to create opportunity in this country.
> 
> It's being reported that the delay is in part due to the French wanting our fish and the Spanish wanting our Gibraltar. People are really going to change their minds and be keen to stay in the Eu then.


Yes, Spain promised to block the May Deal if they didn't get Gibraltar... 
But do Leave care about British people here?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Farmers Unions, *CBI*, Business Leaders, European Union Leaders, are all behind this agreement now. We have been told this in the last 10 minutes in Parliament.


*Amber de Botton*‏Verified account @amberdebotton
Exclusive: @CBItweets staff members inadvertently let slip to @ITVJoel what they really think about the deal. 
Internal email says: _"No need to give credit to negotiators I think, because it's not a good deal"

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-22...official-statement-revealed-in-email-blunder/
....._


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, Spain promised to block the May Deal if they didn't get Gibraltar...
> But do Leave care about British people here?


Oh don't you worry, leave voters probably care more about Gibraltar than Remain voters do. And I quote:

'The Spanish won't take Gibraltar, it's too important to us. Do they think they still have the Armada.' 

If anything will rile up the nationalist style of leave voter, the Spanish wanting Gib and the French wanting our fish will. They'll have steam coming out of their ears. Whether that's a good thing leading to world peace and a united Europe ..

As for the CBI leak. The person accidentally sent an email to ITV? :Hilarious Yeah right. The CBI are backing the deal regardless.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Oh don't you worry, leave voters probably care more about Gibraltar than Remain voters do. And I quote:
> 
> 'The Spanish won't take Gibraltar, it's too important to us. Do they think they still have the Armada.'
> 
> If anything will rile up the nationalist style of leave voter, the Spanish wanting Gib and the French wanting our fish will. They'll have steam coming out of their ears. Whether that's a good thing leading to world peace and a united Europe ..
> 
> As for the CBI leak. The person accidentally sent an email to ITV? :Hilarious Yeah right. The CBI are backing the deal regardless.


Well, Spanish want our fish!! More intrusions to our waters those days... they feel that as UK is getting out of EU they can do whatever!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Amber de Botton*‏Verified account @amberdebotton
> Exclusive: @CBItweets staff members inadvertently let slip to @ITVJoel what they really think about the deal.
> Internal email says: _"No need to give credit to negotiators I think, because it's not a good deal"
> 
> https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-22...official-statement-revealed-in-email-blunder/
> ....._


Well they didn't say that yesterday or the day before or when they gave TM a round of applause when she addressed them. Funny isn't it you find the negative news on twitter. They call it twit ter for a reason you know. Fake news. Now I sound like orange man. :Sorry


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> It's good that he's running into headwinds, but we need to keep a close eye on this man. He has already tried with America, and he could nudge Europe down a _very_ dangerous path.


I think it says all you need to know about Bannon that even Trump dumped him... 

Incidentally, if you've never heard of Randy Rainbow and enjoy the notion of Trump and co being ragged via show tunes parody songs, I suggest you look him up  He had a rather good one about Bannon getting fired... (won't link it here as there's a bit of language, but it's called Yes! We have no Steve Bannon  )


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Apparently, because I care about the environment and social justice, I'm a lefty, a loony lefty, leftard, libtard, snowflake. Because I oppose bloodsports I'm a bunny hugger. And because i'm an activist I'm an extremist. So many labels, I may as well own them - they are like a badges of honour to me now:Smuggrin
> 
> Hissy fits?  You are the only one who keeps stomping of the threads


Did this survey the other evening. I was proud of the outcome.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I saw the article about Harry and it immediately struck me that some on here and outside of it want to take the vote away from people like him. I think it's disgusting and wanted to point it out to those ageist people who have said it. I hope they're ashamed.


Agreed. People who served and lived through WWII are more likely to have voted remain than leave. This was certainly the case in 1975 as well where memories of the war were still fresh in many minds.

I know people in their 20s who voted leave.

Then, having said that I stand by my belief 16-18-year-olds should've been allowed to vote in the 2016 referendum.

Conversely, many Brexiters dismiss that as remain might have won had they been allowed a vote!

I can understand the anger from younger people about people of my age group and upwards taking their freedom away from them which, in effect is what's happened.

They have to live with the consequences of that longer than we have to.

But it's wrong to target people of a certain age group as all being the same.


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=907461972775759&id=748608695327755


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Apart from that. He does have a certain appeal, don't you think?


Wouldn't give him house room! You can have him ..... but ....... Yanis is ALL MINE!


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Apart from that. He does have a certain appeal, don't you think?


I don't think you should worry about him too much. By the looks of him, he hasn't got long before he shuffles off this mortal coil.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377268
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=907461972775759&id=748608695327755


So please show me the reduction in NHS staffing levels?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Those that are interested the full
Draft Withdrawal Agreement and Outline Political Declaration is now available on the Governments website:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/draft-withdrawal-agreement-and-outline-political-declaration


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> People who served and lived through WWII are more likely to have voted remain than leave. This was certainly the case in 1975 as well where memories of the war were still fresh in many minds.


There's been much said about funding of campaigns in this recent referendum. The rules weren't so tight then, just look at who and how much was funded by big business and the rich. It was very one sided campaign back then. Also no social media at all, those rich media types had it all their way



stockwellcat. said:


> So please show me the reduction in NHS staffing levels?
> 
> View attachment 377289


Ok, how does that compare with population increases?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Europes on a dangerous path without him with the rise of the far right across Europe. History repeating itself?


I sincerely hope not.

The 1951 Treaty of Paris, which set up the ECSC, was designed to take us off that path for ever. As Churchill, one of its prime movers said: "We must build a kind of United States of Europe."

As the integration of trade saw that morph into the EEC and then Thatcher's single market turned it into the EU, the original aims were - at least in the UK - if not forgotten then certainly relegated in importance until they are now regularly dismissed as a positive achievement of the EU.

Now we have the rise of nationalism once more, driven in part by the likes of the right wing press, the UKIP wing of politics, the more moderate right deliberately pandering to Farageists for party political reasons, and by the actions of the EU itself, which has seemed blind to the direction in which their disconnect with the people has been pushing things (or if not blind then apparently incapable of addressing it properly).

And now we have Brexit, which has boosted the nationalists and legitimised their views. Some people are keen that the EU is broken up; that Europe returns to something more like the geopolitical form of the mid-20th century than to Churchill's vision of the United States of Europe. And the likes of Bannon (and Farage) will do all they can to encourage it.

We have to remember where it led before.

(Sorry for the lecture, and not meant to be aimed at you, but once I climb on that hobbyhorse it's difficult to get off without a little canter around!)


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I sincerely hope not.
> 
> The 1951 Treaty of Paris, which set up the ECSC, was designed to take us off that path for ever. As Churchill, one of its prime movers said: "We must build a kind of United States of Europe."
> 
> As the integration of trade saw that morph into the EEC and then Thatcher's single market turned it into the EU, the original aims were - at least in the UK - if not forgotten then certainly relegated in importance until they are now regularly dismissed as a positive achievement of the EU.
> 
> Now we have the rise of nationalism once more, driven in part by the likes of the right wing press, the UKIP wing of politics, the more moderate right deliberately pandering to Farageists for party political reasons, and by the actions of the EU itself, which has seemed blind to the direction in which their disconnect with the people has been pushing things (or if not blind then apparently incapable of addressing it properly).
> 
> And now we have Brexit, which has boosted the nationalists and legitimised their views. Some people are keen that the EU is broken up; that Europe returns to something more like the geopolitical form of the mid-20th century than to Churchill's vision of the United States of Europe. And the likes of Bannon (and Farage) will do all they can to encourage it.
> 
> We have to remember where it led before.
> 
> (Sorry for the lecture, and not meant to be aimed at you, but once I climb on that hobbyhorse it's difficult to get off without a little canter around!)


The new populism 
Steve Bannon
*Steve Bannon's far-right Europe operation undermined by election laws*
*Exclusive: *ambitious plan to campaign in EU elections would fall foul of laws in nine of 13 targeted states

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-europe-operation-undermined-by-election-laws

However, breaking news

*Far-right activist Robinson appointed adviser to UKIP leader*

*https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ppointed-adviser-to-ukip-leader-idUSKCN1NS0P9*


----------



## stockwellcat.

This was aired in September 2018 on Channel 4.

History repeating itself?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> The new populism
> Steve Bannon
> *Steve Bannon's far-right Europe operation undermined by election laws*
> *Exclusive: *ambitious plan to campaign in EU elections would fall foul of laws in nine of 13 targeted states
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-europe-operation-undermined-by-election-laws
> 
> However, breaking news
> 
> *Far-right activist Robinson appointed adviser to UKIP leader*
> 
> *https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ppointed-adviser-to-ukip-leader-idUSKCN1NS0P9*


That "like" was for the first part only! 

The second part beggars belief.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Guardian Newspaper published this 16 hours ago.
*The resistible rise of the far right and populism*
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/22/the-resistible-rise-of-the-far-right-and-populism


----------



## KittenKong

I hear May had backed out of an appearance on "This Morning" yesterday. I wonder if their polls had anything to do with it?! They also had one asking whether she should stand down as PM which also gave a decisive yes!

Guess she'll be sticking to the BBC in future where they always give her an easy time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I hear May had backed out of an appearance on "This Morning" yesterday. I wonder if their polls had anything to do with it?! They also had one asking whether she should stand down as PM which also gave a decisive yes!
> 
> Guess she'll be sticking to the BBC in future where they always give her an easy time.
> 
> View attachment 377295


The problem remainers have with a second referendum is this. You could lose yet again with a bigger majority to leave or even a smaller majority to leave. There is no guarantee remainers would win such a referendum.

As much as you hate hearing it. People voted to leave the EU in 2016 and will in all probability vote to leave again. Alot of peoples minds have not changed from the leave side but have on the remainers side. I know alot of people that voted remain who said given a second chance would vote leave and many leavers that said their minds have not changed at all and would vote the same. But as a general rule we don't discuss the referendum result over and over like people do online as people believe it or not have got over the result in 2016.

A second referendum or peoples vote or whatever you want to call it would be very risky for remainers. Yes the polls are saying that remainers would win but didn't they do the same in the first referendum in 2016 right up to the day of the referendum in 2016. How wrong the polls where back then. The problem with select polls and I have said this all along they are not trustworthy at all. The referendum showed that people wanted to leave as much as remainers hate hearing or reading that and the most people in recent history showed up to vote on referendum day, more than any General Election.

So why are you denying those that voted leave what was voted for in 2016? Any second vote could cause remainers to react the same way again so where does this end?


----------



## Elles

Any rise in populism and the brexit vote itself is to do with people generally being unhappy. If politicians and the Eu heeded the warnings of their advisors, they could have done something about it, but they didn’t.


----------



## Arnie83

Robert @Peston on @itvnews tonight: Growing numbers of MPs are talking to me about how the only option is to stay in the EU ... for the first time I think there is a reasonable prospect that we will end up staying in the EU.#brexit


----------



## Elles

There’s been a reasonable chance of staying in the Eu since we voted to leave it and before. :Hilarious

They don’t want a second vote because it’s too risky, it can go to parliament.

It’s not just Remainers that are asking for a second vote, some leavers are too. They think without it we will end up staying in. Sensible Remainers want it to go to MPs not the public.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem remainers have with a second referendum is this. You could lose yet again with a bigger majority to leave or even a smaller majority to leave. There is no guarantee remainers would win such a referendum.


So be it.



stockwellcat. said:


> So why are you denying those that voted leave what was voted for in 2016? Any second vote could cause remainers to react the same way again so where does this end?


Because it was uninformed and undefined. You can't get a tonsillectomy under those circumstances, and it's difficult to argue that Brexit is less important.


----------



## Jesthar

OK, I normally try to avoid the memes, but this one was too good to resist


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> OK, I normally try to avoid the memes, but this one was too good to resist


Brilliant :Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM doing Q&A session from members of the public on BBC News and BBC radio 5 live has just started.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM said she wants to deliver Brexit.
She said there is no question of no brexit as the result of the referendum has to be delivered from 2016.
She said if the agreement does not get through Parliament it will cause more uncertainty and more division so her job is now to get the vote through Parliament and she is working hard to do this.
TM said she will not resign if the deal does not get through Parliament.


----------



## Arnie83

It's a load of meaningless waffle.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's a load of meaningless waffle.


Alot of people are won over with the agreement she has achieved because they want the uncertainty to come to an end.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Alot of people are won over with the agreement she has achieved because they want the uncertainty to come to an end.


Well let's hope they don't read the political declaration then, because there's nothing but uncertainty in it, and that's a lot more important than a withdrawal agreement which covers only the next couple of years.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> TM said she wants to deliver Brexit.
> She said there is no question of no brexit as the result of the referendum has to be delivered from 2016.
> She said if the agreement does not get through Parliament it will cause more uncertainty and more division so her job is now to get the vote through Parliament and she is working hard to do this.
> TM said she will not resign if the deal does not get through Parliament.


Do you really think resigning is on the agenda? She's another Robert Mugabe who vows to stay on however unpopular she becomes. People like them have their methods to cling onto power regardless.

Ruling through fear and blackmail is not strong and stable leadership. It's the kind of things dictators' do to justify themselves.

Examples include ousting May might result in Boris or JRM. However much it pains me to say this I'd rather have BJ as PM than May. At least there's the possibility of his dad and siblings talking some sense into him.

Secondly- back my Brexit deal or (for remainers') the alternative will be no deal, or (for brexiters) they'll be no Brexit.

Her deal is so bad Dominic Rabb of all people was reported to have suggested he'd rather stay in the EU than accept it!

As Arnie says it only causes continued uncertainty as the deal only covers the transition period.

What then? A hard border for NI after all with a hard Brexit or a decision to re-join the EU?

More likely the former seeing May will be most likely to still be PM. But there's always the possibility May could be ousted and replaced by a John Major- like moderate who forms such a good relationship with Brussels, they would welcome the UK back.

So, continued uncertainty for another couple of years at least whatever side of the fence you're on.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Wouldn't give him house room! You can have him ..... but ....... Yanis is ALL MINE!
















MilleD said:


> I don't think you should worry about him too much. By the looks of him, he hasn't got long before he shuffles off this mortal coil.


I shouldn't laugh at this - but I can't help it!:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I shouldn't laugh at this - but I can't help it!:Hilarious


Sorry, probably bad taste, but he seems the type to be able to take it


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Do you really think resigning is on the agenda? She's another Robert Mugabe who vows to stay on however unpopular she becomes. People like them have their methods to cling onto power regardless.
> 
> Ruling through fear and blackmail is not strong and stable leadership. It's the kind of things dictators' do to justify themselves.
> 
> Examples include ousting May might result in Boris or JRM. However much it pains me to say this I'd rather have BJ as PM than May. At least there's the possibility of his dad and siblings talking some sense into him.
> 
> Secondly- back my Brexit deal or (for remainers') the alternative will be no deal, or (for brexiters) they'll be no Brexit.
> 
> Her deal is so bad Dominic Rabb of all people was reported to have suggested he'd rather stay in the EU than accept it!
> 
> As Arnie says it only causes continued uncertainty as the deal only covers the transition period.
> 
> What then? A hard border for NI after all with a hard Brexit or a decision to re-join the EU?
> 
> More likely the former seeing May will be most likely to still be PM. But there's always the possibility May could be ousted and replaced by a John Major- like moderate who forms such a good relationship with Brussels, they would welcome the UK back.
> 
> So, continued uncertainty for another couple of years at least whatever side of the fence you're on.


I am finding it hard to keep up with your thought pattern. You have told us about the UK resembling Germany in the 1930's when it doesn't and that Theresa May is now like Robert Mugabe. Both far extremes and totally untrue.

I see you compare May to these leaders or time periods because you simply didn't like the vote to leave.

I feel that you will next compare May with Stalin if you haven't already or Putin.

This is getting ridiculous beyond belief.
So some remainers want the UK to remain in uncertainity because they want a second referendum. What then if you lose if this did happen?

Therea May is trying to get the best possible deal without crashing out of the EU.

There is no way back from this because if the deal is rejected by Parliament the UK will be on a 21 day notice to come up with a new deal or crash out of the EU with no deal. The rules are hard to accept by some remainers aren't they as these are the rules.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Her deal is so bad Dominic Rabb of all people was reported to have suggested he'd rather stay in the EU than accept it!


You have totally miss quoted Dominic Raab. He said this deal is worse than staying in the EU. He didn't say he he'd rather stay in the EU.

The options are slim KK. It is either take this deal, face 21 days notice to come up with another deal (the deal on the table has taken 2 years to negotiate) or no deal. No second referendum. No peoples vote. No general election. Not much time left.


----------



## Magyarmum

*


KittenKong said:



Do you really think resigning is on the agenda? She's another Robert Mugabe who vows to stay on however unpopular he became.

Ruling through fear and blackmail is not strong and stable leadership. It's the kind of things dictators' do to justify themselves

Click to expand...

*You really do talk a load of rot don't you? There's absolutely no comparison between TM and Mugabe!.

Mugabe reduced a beautiful and wealthy country to a wasteland and ruined the lives of thousands of people of all colours. I have several friends who lost everything under Mugabe's dictatorship.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/29/zimbabwes-robert-mugabe-after-33-years-brutal-misr/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/01/zimbabwe.southafrica

He and his wife and his wife Grace stole millions of dollars to line their own pockets.

http://time.com/money/5031449/robert-mugabe-zimbabwe-net-worth-assets/

Be careful what you wish for ..... very very careful!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KK comparing May to a dictator or period in time is only going to infuriate people and make people want to vote the opposite of the way you want them to if another referendum was to take place. You are only making the opposite happen and doing your cause no good.

If you disagree carry on because if you are saying this across different forums you are doing nothing but sow divisions and making things worse


----------



## noushka05

So true.



*May's Brexit deal is a humiliation for Britain*
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So true.
> 
> 
> *May's Brexit deal is a humiliation for Britain*
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/11/23/may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-humiliation-for-britain


Just a question.
Have you actually read all the 585 pages of the withdrawal agreement or are you relying on what other people say?


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> You really do talk a load of rot don't you? There's absolutely no comparison between TM and Mugabe!.


Absolutely . Honestly , the comparison smacks of desperation .


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Just a question.
> Have you actually read all the 585 pages of the withdrawal agreement or are you relying on what other people say?


I very much doubt that even Theresa May has read all 585 pages. She would be interested in the relevant passages, not the legalese that surrounds it all. Most of it is really very boring and pretty much impenetrable.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely . Honestly , the comparison smacks of desperation .


This article by The Guardian, written in 2009 will give you some idea what it was like living in Mugabe's Zimbabwe!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/apr/28/zimbabwe-aid-mugabe


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So some remainers want the UK to remain in uncertainity because they want a second referendum. What then if you lose if this did happen?


Like I said, so be it. Although it isn't actually a second referendum, because it's a refendum on the deal, not the principle.



stockwellcat. said:


> Therea May is trying to get the best possible deal without crashing out of the EU.
> 
> There is no way back from this because if the deal is rejected by Parliament the UK will be on a 21 day notice to come up with a new deal or crash out of the EU with no deal. The rules are hard to accept by some remainers aren't they as these are the rules.


You still seem to think that Parliament will sit quietly playing sudoku while the clock ticks down. Parliament will not allow the UK to crash out with No Deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Any rise in populism and the brexit vote itself is to do with people generally being unhappy. If politicians and the Eu heeded the warnings of their advisors, they could have done something about it, but they didn't.


People are unhappy, yet it is not fair to blame EU for that all?
We had regulations as to how long EU citizens can stay in UK and on what terms, but our governments chose not to implement them.

We cannot blame EU on non EU immigration? But people do!!
Rise of Islamic extremism? Sharia law? Schools that contravine our laws? 
No directive from EU banned Christmas lights, Nativity or forced us to sing Ba, ba rainbow sheep.

Neither they enforced cuts on NHS or police force.

I can very well see why people are unhappy and cynical politicians to divert attention direct it to EU!

One of biggest blunders - Iraq - look most of EU kept away, while we followed our Big Brother...

Oh, how convenient is to blame others!!!

Britain benefited from being in EU and will be much worse out.

Politicians are always happy to blame others. In Spain it is Gibraltar for example.

People don't question that, just hate. 
Not everyone, but there always those who swallow the propaganda wholesale.

Now obviously bad deal will still be blamed on EU who offered what they warned we would get.

Politicians can play that game for many years to come...

We will lose benefits of EU membership and blame EU for that!!!!


----------



## Elles

I didn’t blame the Eu, I said the Eu and politicians didn’t heed expert warnings and do something about it. If they had maybe we wouldn’t have the increase in populism Europe wide, or a brexit vote. How that came to blaming the Eu for your list I don’t know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Arnie83 we will see what will happen in Parliament. You don't know as you are not a Member of Parliament. MP's say one thing and do another. That is politics. Politicians are liars through and through and that is the way it has always been. You will see the whips working hard fo secure Mays deal. Otherwise 21 days notice to come up with another deal. That's the rules in the EU. Keep pushing and no deal will happen and Parliament will have no say on it if the EU declare it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> @Arnie83 we will see what will happen in Parliament. You don't know as you are not a Member of Parliament. MP's say one thing and do another. That is politics. Politicians are liars through and through and that is the way it has always been. You will see the whips working hard fo secure Mays deal. Otherwise 21 days notice to come up with another deal. That's the rules in the EU. Keep pushing and no deal will happen and Parliament will have no say on it if the EU declare it.


If we tell the EU that we want to remain, they would bite our hand off.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> If we tell the EU that we want to remain, they would bite our hand off.


You don't think they won't punish the UK for what we put them through for the last 2 years? I do.

But hey what you're hoping won't happen and I am very sure of that.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Did anyone hear May on BBC Radio 5 live lunch time, what a lot of waffle, she never answered a question, just muddled her way thought like she always does.


----------



## Elles

They’d tear our arm off and be laughing all the way to Brussels. Proof that we can’t do without them after all, while secretly relieved that our money is still coming in.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I didn't blame the Eu, I said the Eu and politicians didn't heed expert warnings and do something about it. If they had maybe we wouldn't have the increase in populism Europe wide, or a brexit vote. How that came to blaming the Eu for your list I don't know.


It's the age old method of blaming others for their own misfortunes. Hitler did successfully which was hardly the fault of the EU seeing it didn't exist then.

And, how many "foriegners" were in the UK, "Taking the jobs from British workers", at the time of the Great Depression?



Arnie83 said:


> If we tell the EU that we want to remain, they would bite our hand off.


It would be a miracle if they accepted the UK back. After another decade of May England wouldn't be considered suitable for EU membership if they tried.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> It's the age old method of blaming others for their own misfortunes. Hitler did successfully which was hardly the fault of the EU seeing it didn't exist then.
> 
> And, how many "foriegners" were in the UK, "Taking the jobs from British workers", at the time of the Great Depression?
> 
> It would be a miracle if they accepted the UK back. After another decade of May England wouldn't be considered suitable for EU membership if they tried.


The EU might not be here in another decade. The world as we know it might not be here in another decade.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I didn't blame the Eu, I said the Eu and politicians didn't heed expert warnings and do something about it. If they had maybe we wouldn't have the increase in populism Europe wide, or a brexit vote. How that came to blaming the Eu for your list I don't know.


You might like to read this .....

*The EU Remains Unprepared for the Next Migration Crisis*
*
https://carnegieeurope.eu/2018/04/03/eu-remains-unprepared-for-next-migration-crisis-pub-75965*


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU might not be here in another decade. The world as we know it might not be here in another decade.


If you're right I guess we can expect a war between one ex member state and another. England and Spain over Gibraltar perhaps?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> If you're right I guess we can expect a war between one ex member state and another. England and Spain over Gibraltar perhaps?


Doubt it very much.


----------



## Elles

The point I’m making is that it doesn’t matter who is to blame, the people who could do something about it were given advice and chose to ignore it. They were warned about dissatisfaction and how things were likely to go if they carried on with austerity type policies, but carried on anyway and with bankers and other financial bodies letting people down too, it was going to happen. And it did.  You guys are still blaming. Blaming the public for blaming the Eu lol.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Just a question.
> Have you actually read all the 585 pages of the withdrawal agreement or are you relying on what other people say?


I certainly haven't read it & I don't intend to. I don't have the understanding to evaluate it, I leave that to people who do - and trustworthy individuals are ALL saying the agreement is disastrous.

Have you read it?



Elles said:


> The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter who is to blame, the people who could do something about it were given advice and chose to ignore it. They were warned about dissatisfaction and how things were likely to go if they carried on with austerity type policies, but carried on anyway and with bankers and other financial bodies letting people down too, it was going to happen. And it did.  You guys are still blaming. Blaming the public for blaming the Eu lol.


But austerity in this country was imposed on us by the *torie*s NOT the EU. The EU actually offered millions in aid to help our poorest citizens using foodbanks - the tories turned it down! When we leave the EU the tories are going to ramp up austerity. Thats what remainers have been trying to explain from day one. So how will leaving the EU help?

Wise Harry gets it.



















.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> If you're right I guess we can expect a war between one ex member state and another. England and Spain over Gibraltar perhaps?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Michael Howard threaten war over Gibraltar KK?

And what were you saying about May dishing out Knighthoods to bribe ministers into supporting her agreement?

The tories are corrupt to the core.

*Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified account @tnewtondunn
*Fancy that. No10 has, out of the blue, just given long standing eurosceptic Tory MP John Hayes a knighthood. Two unrelated facts: he didn't sign a no confidence letter, and hasn't yet said he'll vote down the Brexit deal

H*ave you seen this @cheekyscrip ? (video on link) x

Brexit = Taking back control? 

*Gibraltar MEP Warns Brexit Will Mean GIVING AWAY The Control We Had*

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/gibraltar-mep-brexit-giving-away-control/

...


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Did this survey the other evening. I was proud of the outcome.
> 
> View attachment 377265
> View attachment 377266
> View attachment 377267


I did that and got the same result. Very pleased to be in the same spectrum as Bernie too:Shamefullyembarrased



stockwellcat. said:


> So please show me the reduction in NHS staffing levels?
> 
> View attachment 377289


Since the tories got in and implemented their drastic cuts & other austerity measures, then the added impact of brexit, there has been a massive reduction in NHS staff SWC.

And the numbers continue to spiral downward so fast that in a decades time our NHS faces a staff shortage of 350,000.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I certainly haven't read it & I don't intend to. I don't have the understanding to evaluate it, I leave that to people who do - and trustworthy individuals are ALL saying the agreement is disastrous.
> 
> Have you read it?
> 
> But austerity in this country was imposed on us by the *torie*s NOT the EU. The EU actually offered millions in aid to help our poorest citizens using foodbanks - the tories turned it down! When we leave the EU the tories are going to ramp up austerity. Thats what remainers have been trying to explain from day one. So how will leaving the EU help?
> 
> Wise Harry gets it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


*Has the EU sacrificed human rights on the altar of austerity?*

https://www.equaltimes.org/even-in-the-face-of-austerity-and#.W_j5djhKjIU

*The trouble with being both anti-austerity and pro-EU*

*https://www.redpepper.org.uk/the-trouble-with-being-both-anti-austerity-and-pro-eu/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/21/greece-europe-eu-austerity*


----------



## stockwellcat.

I find @noushka05 it is better getting information directly from the source of that information and not from a 3rd party whose opinion maybe somewhat obscured because they themselves are relying on what someone else is saying because they haven't read the original information themselves.

The Northern Ireland Back Stop.
It is to be only implemented if and only if a trade deal is not agreed or no future relationship at the end of the transition period 31st December 2020. The idea of the backstop is to not be used unless no agreement is made.


> *TECHNICAL EXPLANATORY NOTE: ARTICLES 6-8 OF THE PROTOCOL ON NORTHERN IRELAND*
> This technical note reflects discussions between the UK and EU as to how Articles 6 to 8 of the Protocol would operate in any scenario in which the provisions came into effect.
> 1. The provisions within the Protocol are intended to apply only in the scenario where, at the end of the transition period, the parties have not yet established arrangements under their future relationship which would address the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, avoid a hard border and protect the 1998 Belfast Agreement in all its dimensions. Both parties are committed to using their best endeavours to reaching an agreement which would supersede the Protocol in whole or in part by the end of December 2020.
> 2. In any circumstances in which it would be required, Article 6 of the Protocol establishes a
> single UK-EU customs territory, with the details of its operation to be codified by the UK-EU
> Joint Committee. Accordingly, Northern Ireland is part of the same customs territory as Great
> Britain with no tariffs, quotas, or checks on rules of origin between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK will represent itself, including Northern Ireland, at the WTO.
> 3. Articles 6-7 also sets out provisions related to Northern Ireland specific regulatory alignment in order to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland and to ensure that Northern Ireland businesses can place products on the EU Single Market without restriction. The application of the Union Customs Code in Northern Ireland is necessary since the UCC covers all provisions for a good to be released for free circulation in the EU. These include all of the overarching requirements for regulatory compliance. Once a good has completed such formalities it can be considered a 'Union good' and in free circulation.
> 4. Both parties agree that the practical operationalisation of such a regime, in the event that this came in to effect, would clearly require further work and discussion between the UK and the EU, and would be informed by the overall relationship between the UK and the EU at that stage.
> Article 7(2) is clear that, in administering these arrangements, the parties should use their best
> endeavours to seek to facilitate trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. With that in
> mind there are a number of principles that both the UK and the EU agree:
> a. Nothing in the Protocol prevents unfettered market access for Northern Ireland
> products in Great Britain.
> b. There will be no tariffs, quotas, or checks on rules of origin between Great Britain and
> Northern Ireland.
> c. For the movement of industrial goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, except in
> cases of interception on the basis of risk, checks can mostly be undertaken on the
> market or at a traders' premises by relevant authorities. Such checks will always be carried out by UK authorities.
> d. Noting the island of Ireland's status as a single epidemiological area, existing checks at
> ports and airports, and the licensing regime in operation for the movement of agricultural products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, will provide a platform for continued protection of animal and public health. It is recognised in particular, though, that access without restriction to the EU Single Market for Northern Ireland business necessitates an increased proportion of checks on live animals and on
> products of animal origin given the relevant regulatory requirements, although the
> objectives in Article 7(2) shall be taken into account by the Joint Committee to
> determine the practical arrangements for administering relevant controls. In that
> respect, the regulatory regimes in the UK and the EU, and their practical implementation, will be taken in to account. Relevant checks would always be carried out by UK or Northern Ireland authorities as is the case now.
> e. The operational regime would ensure that relevant information will be provided on
> goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland through appropriate declarations,
> in order to provide for risk-based approach to assessment and checks.
> f. Ensuring Northern Ireland continues to be able to operate the EU's VIES system to
> share data with Ireland will require alignment with EU VAT rules with respect to goods,
> and therefore the information declaration requirement referred to above will be
> necessary for VAT purposes. However, Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK's VAT area; with HMRC responsible for operation and collection of VAT, and for the setting of VAT rates, across the UK in line with the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
> Specifically, the UK will ensure that no registered business is required to pay VAT
> upfront when moving goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that
> accounting for VAT can continue to be done through postponed accounting and UK VAT
> returns.
> 5. There are different potential approaches that could be adopted to give effect to these Articles.
> For example, the European Commission has proposed that transit procedures currently
> operating for some movements of goods within the European Union would allow goods to
> move smoothly from Great Britain to Northern Ireland in a way that facilitates trade and
> business (see for example, the infographic which the European Commission has published).
> Both parties note that it would be for the United Kingdom or Northern Ireland authorities as
> appropriate to operate this system.
> 6. The text also contains several key protections for Northern Ireland businesses while maintaining the integrity of the EU and UK internal markets. For example, it provides (at
> Article 8(1)) that UK authorities can approve and authorise the placing of goods onto the
> market throughout the UK, including in Northern Ireland where products meet the applicable
> regulatory standards. It also sets out (at Article 7(3)) that nothing in the text prevents a
> product originating from Northern Ireland as being considered as a UK good when placed on
> the market in Great Britain. And at Article 7(4) it makes clear that the placing of non-harmonised goods onto the whole of the UK market continues to be a matter for UK authorities.
> 7. Both parties therefore believe that the backstop protects both the EU single market and the UK internal market without prejudice to the future UK-EU relationship, as set out in the December Joint UK-EU Report, and respecting the overarching requirement to avoid a hard border.


The above quoted text is from the document below that is only 2 pages long.

You will find you are just arguing the t**s because you want to remain and refusing to read the documents that are available for everyone to read here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...articles-6-8-on-the-northern-ireland-protocol


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> *Has the EU sacrificed human rights on the altar of austerity?*
> 
> https://www.equaltimes.org/even-in-the-face-of-austerity-and#.W_j5djhKjIU
> 
> *The trouble with being both anti-austerity and pro-EU*
> 
> *https://www.redpepper.org.uk/the-trouble-with-being-both-anti-austerity-and-pro-eu/
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/21/greece-urope-eu-austerity*


(I dont have time to read your links at the moment)
But austerity in the UK was solely due to the political choice of the tory government MM. Have you seen the damning findings of the UN investigation?

_SECOND AD BANNED FROM TV

Advert for Tory government's choice to inflict austerit*y* on the people creating widespread extreme poverty. Starring @Alston_UNSR a true story about the UN report on poverty in the *UK* considered too political by __@BBCN_ews

(please check out the video on the link. Makes me feel so ashamed and furious! )


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063707336936701952


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I find @noushka05 it is better getting information directly from the source of that information and not from a 3rd party whose opinion maybe somewhat obscured because they themselves are relying on what someone else is saying because they haven't read the original information themselves.
> 
> The Northern Ireland Back Stop.
> It is to be only implemented if and only if a trade deal is not agreed. The idea of the backstop is to not be used.
> 
> The above quoted text is from the document below that is only 2 pages long.
> 
> You will find you are just arguing the t**s because you want to remain and therefore just being awkward by refusing to read the documents that are available for everyone to read here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...articles-6-8-on-the-northern-ireland-protocol


I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm better qualified at evaluating than those I trust to do it. I think most of the problems in this world stem from the fact that millions of people think they know better than experts. Well I 'havent given up on experts'


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm better qualified at evaluating than those I trust to do it. I think most of the problems in this world stem from the fact that millions of people think they know better than experts. Well I 'havent given up on experts'


I am not arrogant either thinking I am better qualified at evaluating things. I am reading the source of the information and making my own judgement instead of relying on the judgement of so called experts. It's called having your own opinion and making your own mind up.

If you are going to debate and agrue it is better knowing what was said at the original source than using 3rd party opinions.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't think they won't punish the UK for what we put them through for the last 2 years? I do.
> 
> But hey what you're hoping won't happen and I am very sure of that.


I think there might be rumblings from a few daft MEPs about the rebate, but the EU knows what side its bread is buttered, and the UK abandoning an attempt to leave while keeping its benefits simply strengthens the EU's position.

Nothing is beyond the realms of possibility at the moment. I'm not sure of anything, though I am most sure that a No Deal will not be the result. Only a few extreme Tories want it; the vast majority of Parliament is against it, and so are the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> They'd tear our arm off and be laughing all the way to Brussels. *Proof that we can't do without them *after all, while secretly relieved that our money is still coming in.


We can certainly do without them, but it would indicate the realisation that we can't do as well, economically.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Michael Howard threaten war over Gibraltar?


He hinted at it, a whole week after Article 50 was triggered:

"Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I'm absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar."​
He was rightly castigated for the intimation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Spain are kicking off again.








The problem with his statement above is there is nothing to veto at this stage as no voting is taking place on Sunday. All Spain can do is not show at the meeting of EU leaders and the UK tomorrow but this will not affect what will happen tomorrow.

The voting doesn't take place until next year in the EU. Spain can veto if they want or refuse to vote, so can France and Holland as only 20 countries need to agree to the withdrawal agreement.

If the UK rejects the deal the UK goes on 21 days notice from the EU to come up with another withdrawal agreement. But with this withdrawal agreement already being widely accepted by EU leaders this will be very hard to do. If no alternative withdrawal agreement is made within 21 days the UK crashes out as the EU will declare no deal was reached the UK Parliament will not get a say as they have already rejected the withdrawal agreement that was agreed to by EU leaders this Sunday.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> He hinted at it, a whole week after Article 50 was triggered:
> 
> "Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country, and I'm absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar."
> He was rightly castigated for the intimation


Let's add a good old dose of jingoism into the mix hey. That's exactly what we need


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I see Spain are kicking off again.
> View attachment 377391
> 
> The problem with his statement above is there is nothing to veto at this stage as no voting is taking place on Sunday. All Spain can do is not show at the meeting of EU leaders and the UK tomorrow but this will not affect what will happen tomorrow.
> 
> The voting doesn't take place until next year in the EU. Spain can veto if they want or refuse to vote, so can France and Holland as only 20 countries need to agree to the withdrawal agreement.
> 
> If the UK rejects the deal the UK goes on 21 days notice from the EU to come up with another withdrawal agreement. But with this withdrawal agreement already being widely accepted by EU leaders this will be very hard to do. If no alternative withdrawal agreement is made within 21 days the UK crashes out as the EU will declare no deal was reached the UK Parliament will not get a say as they have already rejected the withdrawal agreement that was agreed to by EU leaders this Sunday.


SWC you might like reading this article, which backs up what you are saying about Spanish threats over Gibraltar!.

https://capx.co/spains-brexit-threats-are-as-shallow-as-they-are-futile/

*Spain's Brexit threats are as shallow as they are futile*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> SWC you might like reading this article, which backs up what you are saying about Spanish threats over Gibraltar!.
> 
> https://capx.co/spains-brexit-threats-are-as-shallow-as-they-are-futile/
> 
> *Spain's Brexit threats are as shallow as they are futile*


Well that is interesting...


> Under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, no one country has veto rights over the departure terms for a withdrawing EU member state.


So Spain has no veto on the Withdrawal Terms. What a bluff they are trying to pull.


----------



## KittenKong

No wonder Mrs Thatcher called unions, "The enemy within".

https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/why-mrs-mays-brexit-deal-threatens-your-rights-work


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> So Spain has no veto. What a bluff they are trying to pull


Exactly the same as anyone else. The eye is always on the home electorate - 'we were always fighting for you' works a treat.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Michael Howard threaten war over Gibraltar KK?
> 
> And what were you saying about May dishing out Knighthoods to bribe ministers into supporting her agreement?
> 
> The tories are corrupt to the core.


Yes, I'm afraid he did. The Sun also started their, "Hands Off Our Rock" campaign with insults thrown at the Spanish. It almost felt like the Falklands over again.

I wonder what Kenneth Clarke was bribed with, a knighthood or a peerage?

People like Clarke and indeed May are worse than the Brexiters, having masqueraded as Remainers then switching sides at the slightest sniff of power.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I'm afraid he did. The Sun also started their, "Hands Off Our Rock" campaign with insults thrown at the Spanish. It almost felt like the Falklands over again.
> 
> I wonder what Kenneth Clarke was bribed with, a knighthood or a peerage?
> 
> People like Clarke and indeed May are worse than the Brexiters, having masqueraded as Remainers then switching sides at the slightest sniff of power.


It could be as simple as he read the 585 page document and was satisfied with it realising the UK won't get anything better than the withdrawal agreement on the table. Will be interesting though if the other back bench remainers like Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve follow suite and agree to the Withdrawal Agreement.

This is not May's withdrawal agreement as the EU negotiated this as well over the last 2 years and are happy with the terms.

Labour wouldn't be able to get anything better as this is all the EU is willing to offer and the withdrawal agreement on the table is what is on offer.

Time is running out as well. 125 days and 12 hours and 59 minutes to go.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-admits-uk-would-be-better-off-staying-in-eu


----------



## Magyarmum

Sometimes you have to laugh whichever side you're on!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If the UK rejects the deal the UK goes on 21 days notice from the EU to come up with another withdrawal agreement. But with this withdrawal agreement already being widely accepted by EU leaders this will be very hard to do. If no alternative withdrawal agreement is made within 21 days the UK crashes out as the EU will declare no deal was reached the UK Parliament will not get a say as they have already rejected the withdrawal agreement that was agreed to by EU leaders this Sunday.


However many time you repeat it, this is still not correct.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> However many time you repeat it, this is still not correct.


It is correct.

Oh yeah sorry. You want a Peoples Vote. It has been ruled out by the PM.

21 Days to setup a peoples vote. It won't happen. It took Cameron over a year to organise the Referendum.

Extending article 50 will cost the UK an extra £10bn. The EU told us this only this week that any extensions will cost £10bn on top of the £39bn.

Have I missed anything?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It could be as simple as he read the 585 page document and was satisfied with it realising the UK won't get anything better than the withdrawal agreement on the table. Will be interesting though if the other back bench remainers like Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve follow suite and agree to the Withdrawal Agreement.
> 
> This is not May's withdrawal agreement as the EU negotiated this as well over the last 2 years and are happy with the terms.
> 
> Labour wouldn't be able to get anything better as this is all the EU is willing to offer and the withdrawal agreement on the table is what is on offer.
> 
> Time is running out as well. 125 days and 12 hours and 59 minutes to go.


I'm inclined to agree that, as far as wanting a post-Brexit deal with the EU is concerned it's the "best" that can be achieved.

Yet, even Dominic Rabb of all people suggested the UK would do better to maintain the status quo rather than accept May's deal. That's really saying something!

Remainers' have argued that from day one so to hear that from an arch brexiter suggests they're coming round to what they think would be best for their country, at least as far as the May deal is concerned.

Yes, I agree. Corbyn is just as disillusioned to believe they could get a better Brexit deal.

There's no such thing as a good Brexit deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I'm inclined to agree that, as far as wanting a post-Brexit deal with the EU is concerned it's the "best" that can be achieved.
> 
> Yet, even Dominic Rabb of all people suggested the UK would do better to maintain the status quo rather than accept May's deal. That's really saying something!
> 
> Remainers' have argued that from day one so to hear that from an arch brexiter suggests they're coming round to what they think would be best for their country, at least as far as the May deal is concerned.
> 
> Yes, I agree. Corbin is just as disillusioned to believe they could get a better Brexit deal.


Dominic Raab said that Mays deal would be worse than staying in the EU as ministers consider no deal.










He made it clear on twitter that he wants to fight for a proper Brexit and didn't say he now backs staying in the EU. Remainers and the remainer press misinterpreted what he said.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Dominic Raab said that Mays deal would be worse than staying in the EU as ministers consider no deal.
> 
> View attachment 377403
> 
> 
> He made it clear on twitter that he wants to fight for a proper Brexit and didn't say he now backs staying in the EU. Remainers and the remainer press miss interpretated what he said.
> View attachment 377406


No, I'm well aware of Rabb's motives.

He argued it would be better to stay in the EU than to accept May's deal.

That's good enough for me, even if I'm aware he's vouching for a no deal.

As a remainer I obviously want no Brexit full stop, but if it was May's deal or no deal I know what I would prefer to see as I've said earlier.

The more who vouch against May and her plan the better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No, I'm well aware of Rabb's motives.
> 
> He argued it would be better to stay in the EU than to accept May's deal.
> 
> That's good enough for me, even if I'm aware he's vouching for a no deal.
> 
> As a remainer I obviously want no Brexit full stop, but if it was May's deal or no deal I know what I would prefer to see as I've said earlier.
> 
> The more who vouch against May and her plan the better.


No he didn't.

He is fighting for no deal/proper brexit now and so are a number of other ministers and MP's so I would be worried if I was a remainer.

Some remainers I see have not changed. Misinterpreting what leave MP's are saying and twisting it as wel to suit them when they know fine rightly that was not was said or meant.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> He is fighting for no deal/proper brexit now and so are a number of other ministers and MP's so I would be worried if I was a remainer.


Yes I know he is, but a no deal is unlikely to be passed by parliament, even if May's deal is defeated.

She is trying to scare MPs from both sides of the debate and the public into backing her deal. She's apparently ahead in the polls again so her tactic appears to be working.

Unfortunately I think she'll get her way, which leaves most remain and leave voters unhappy.

Something both Remainers' and Brexiters' should be worried about.

Giving May the power and mandate to pursue her own agenda post Brexit for the next decade or so isn't bear thinking about.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> There's no such thing as a good Brexit deal.


The withdrawal agreement on the table is what's on offer for the divorce if you like. Interprete that which every way you wish. The withdrawal agreement on offer is as good as it gets as a settlement for the divorce. Have you read all 585 pages yet so you know what the withdrawal agreement is offering? This isn't the Brexit deal. That is incomplete at the moment as we have 2 more years or 20 months of negotiations on the future relationship and trade if the UK agrees to the divorce settlement.

People are saying they just want them to get this through (remainers and leavers alike) so the uncertainity ends so they know what is happening. Alot of people don't want more uncertainity with another referendum and would vote for the withdrawal agreement on offer. How do you feel about that?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ls-theresa-may-eu-arlene-foster-a8649691.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ls-theresa-may-eu-arlene-foster-a8649691.html
> 
> View attachment 377407


Good on him and I hope he does.
Arlene is in a sticky situation as well according to the news this morning in Northern Ireland.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It is correct.
> 
> Oh yeah sorry. You want a Peoples Vote. It has been ruled out by the PM.
> 
> 21 Days to setup a peoples vote. It won't happen. It took Cameron over a year to organise the Referendum.
> 
> Extending article 50 will cost the UK an extra £10bn. The EU told us this only this week that any extensions will cost £10bn on top of the £39bn.
> 
> Have I missed anything?


The EU can't throw us out. We will leave on 31st March unless some other agreement is made.

The PM has ruled out a second vote, but has also warned that Brexit might not happen. You can believe whichever of her pronouncements suits, or, like me, you can believe that she will say whatever is necessary to further her objectives. Remember how many times she said there wouldn't be an election.

The extension referred to with regard to extra payment is of the Transition period, not of Article 50.

And you've missed all the other options that are available, including the unilateral withdrawal of Article 50 on which the ECJ will shortly be ruling. No-one wants the UK crashing out with No Deal, because it would be economically very damaging indeed for both the UK and the EU. It won't happen.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Yes I know he is, but a no deal is unlikely to be passed by parliament, even if May's deal is defeated.
> 
> She is trying to scare MPs from both sides of the debate and the public into backing her deal. She's apparently ahead in the polls again so her tactic appears to be working.
> 
> Unfortunately I think she'll get her way, which leaves most remain and leave voters unhappy.
> 
> Something both Remainers' and Brexiters' should be worried about.
> 
> Giving May the power and mandate to pursue her own agenda post Brexit for the next decade or so isn't bear thinking about.


I think the most likely option now is May's deal going through, but that just kicks the can down the road for a couple of years, during which we negotiate with even fewer cards in our hand than we have had for the last two.

We can't even threaten to withhold the £39 bn once we're out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The EU can't throw us out. We will leave on 31st March unless some other agreement is made.
> 
> The PM has ruled out a second vote, but has also warned that Brexit might not happen. You can believe whichever of her pronouncements suits, or, like me, you can believe that she will say whatever is necessary to further her objectives. Remember how many times she said there wouldn't be an election.
> 
> The extension referred to with regard to extra payment is of the Transition period, not of Article 50.
> 
> And you've missed all the other options that are available, including the unilateral withdrawal of Article 50 on which the ECJ will shortly be ruling. No-one wants the UK crashing out with No Deal, because it would be economically very damaging indeed for both the UK and the EU. It won't happen.


All EU leaders have to agree to the withdrawal of article 50 with no objections. This then brings us to the next question. Do you really think the EU won't punish the UK in some form for putting them through the previous 24 months? I honestly think they will in one way or another. But some remainers seem ok about this?

Let's not forget the rise of the far right in Italy, Sweden, Germany, France and Hungry etc as pointed out yesterday.

Also don't forget Tusk, Barnier and co will not be around in the second half of the negotiations as they are stepping down.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The withdrawal agreement on the table is what's on offer for the divorce if you like. Interprete that which every way you wish. The withdrawal agreement on offer is as good as it gets as a settlement for the divorce. Have you read all 585 pages yet so you know what the withdrawal agreement is offering? This isn't the Brexit deal. That is incomplete at the moment as we have 2 more years or 20 months of negotiations on the future relationship and trade if the UK agrees to the divorce settlement.
> 
> *People are saying they just want them to get this through (remainers and leavers alike) so the uncertainity ends *so they know what is happening. Alot of people don't want more uncertainity with another referendum and would vote for the withdrawal agreement on offer. How do you feel about that?


Sorry, but how does the uncertainty end when we have no idea what the future relationship is going to be? It could still be anything from Norway to Canada to EEA membership to rejoining the EU to No trade Deal at all. The Political Declaration merely says that everyone will try jolly hard to get the best deal.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The withdrawal agreement on the table is what's on offer for the divorce if you like. Interprete that which every way you wish. The withdrawal agreement on offer is as good as it gets as a settlement for the divorce. Have you read all 585 pages yet so you know what the withdrawal agreement is offering? This isn't the Brexit deal. That is incomplete at the moment as we have 2 more years or 20 months of negotiations on the future relationship and trade if the UK agrees to the divorce settlement.
> 
> People are saying they just want them to get this through (remainers and leavers alike) so the uncertainity ends so they know what is happening. Alot of people don't want more uncertainity with another referendum and would vote for the withdrawal agreement on offer. How do you feel about that?


It's nothing but a farce. The UK settling for demotion from the Premier League knowing what they have/had before June 2016 is mind boggling, to put it mildly.

The problem is, the uncertainty won't end, it's just prolonged which will be worse for a lot of people.

A lot can happen over the next two years.

What will probably happen I reckon will be a lot of problems during the transition period May and her media will blame on the EU. She'll be dragging in the polls but having conditioned the public into blaming the EU she announces a full hard Brexit at the end of the transition period with an Irish border after all.

She'll probably recount the tried and tested Thatcher soundbites of, "Things will have to get worse before they get better" and, "Don't worry, we'll look after you".

May's popularity escalates thanks to the media, she wins a landslide in 2022, full brexit with Irish border happens and imposes the boundary changes ensuring the Tories couldn't be defeated again.

Then, another scenario that could happen over the next two years into May's deal is, she is replaced with the party electing a John Major-like moderate. He or she builds up such a close relationship with Brussels they would have the UK back in a flash.

Having learned the hard way what Brexit actually means, like when the Poll Tax was implemented, it could turn many against it.

A lot can happen over the next couple of years, so prolonged uncertainty for all concerned.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *All EU leaders have to agree to the withdrawal of article 50 with no objections*. This then brings us to the next question. Do you really think the EU won't punish the UK in some form for putting them through the previous 24 months? I honestly think they will in one way or another. But some remainers seem ok about this?
> 
> Let's not forget the rise of the far right in Italy, Sweden, Germany, France and Hungry etc as pointed out yesterday.
> 
> Also don't forget Tusk, Barnier and co will not be around in the second half of the negotiations as they are stepping down.


The ECJ is shortly to rule on the legality of the UK unilaterally withdrawing Article 50. Until then we don't know what the situation is. The case was brought by a bunch of Scottish MEPs, and the Supreme Court ruled that it could go to the ECJ. The UK government tried to block it on the grounds that they had no intention of withdrawing A50, and the Supreme Court dismissed their argument.

But if the ECJ rules that the EU must agree its extension either by qualified majority or unanimity, I would expect them to wave it through. For many many billions of reasons.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, but how does the uncertainty end when we have no idea what the future relationship is going to be? It could still be anything from Norway to Canada to EEA membership to rejoining the EU to No trade Deal at all. The Political Declaration merely says that everyone will try jolly hard to get the best deal.


Alot of people want everything to just move on.

The next stage of talks will either be easy, hard or really hard when it comes to trade. The UK could just agree to what the EU are offering or want something else. With the future partnership we'd have to wait and see.

Regarding my position. What I want and what the UK gets are two different things and therefore I will just have to accept this even though I am against it. See I won't be fussing or protesting.

I don't think for one minute we will be staying in. This is not just the UK's decision at the end of the day all the EU leaders have to agree to.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The ECJ is shortly to rule on the legality of the UK unilaterally withdrawing Article 50. Until then we don't know what the situation is. The case was brought by a bunch of Scottish MEPs, and the Supreme Court ruled that it could go to the ECJ. The UK government tried to block it on the grounds that they had no intention of withdrawing A50, and the Supreme Court dismissed their argument.
> 
> But if the ECJ rules that the EU must agree its extension either by qualified majority or unanimity, I would expect them to wave it through. For many many billions of reasons.


As it stands at the moment the EU leaders have said this. So it does stand at the moment.

Don't build your hopes up on the ECJ ruling as you may be very disappointed when it doesn't go the way you want. The remainers have only won one court case at the moment the rest have been ruled against or rejected. That court case helped the brexit process happen that a remainer took to court as the MP's overwhelmingly voted the process into law.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377409
> 
> :Hilarious


The select polls mean nothing as they all pointed to remain winning the referendum in 2016 right up until 23rd June 2016 the referendum day.

Be very careful what you wish for as Diane Abbott is right even though I don't like the woman.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The select polls mean nothing as they all pointed to remain winning the referendum in 2016 right up until 23rd June 2016 the referendum day.
> 
> Be very careful what you wish for as Diane Abbott is right even though I don't like the woman.


You clearly didn't get the joke seeing she's known as the woman who can't add up!


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...les-vote-1-5790925?utm_medium=email&utm_sourc

*JAMES BALL: Article 50 ruling could bring chaos*


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You clearly didn't get the joke seeing she's known as the woman who can't add up!


Sorry I did miss it.


----------



## Elles

Remainers and Labour supporters were furious about digs, jokes and memes about Diane Abbott. Now they’re at it themselves.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 We had the austerity discussion before. I couldn't get you to understand what I was saying back then and you still (mis)interpret my posts the same way, so I give up.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> *I am not arrogant either thinking I am better qualified at evaluating things*. I am reading the source of the information and *making my own judgement* instead of relying on the judgement of *so called experts*. It's called having your own opinion and making your own mind up.
> 
> If you are going to debate and agrue it is better knowing what was said at the original source than using 3rd party opinions.


This has to be one of the most contradictory sentences I've ever seen.

Timely:Smuggrin

JK destroys Bakers logic!

*J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling 2h2 hours ago
J.K. Rowling Retweeted Steve Baker MP
_
"It is very tempting for *so-called experts* to sneer that unicorns aren't real, but the simple truth is that none of these sneering 'scientists' have tried to breed any._

*Steve Baker MP*‏Verified account @SteveBakerHW
_"It is very tempting for Remainers to gloat and say the Brexiteers have been living in a fantasy land because what they asked for was impossible.
But what we asked for has not been attempted._

.......................................................................................................................................................................



Elles said:


> @noushka05 We had the austerity discussion before. I couldn't get you to understand what I was saying back then and you still (mis)interpret my posts the same way, so I give up.


Apologies if I've misunderstood then, but your posts appeared to me to be blaming Tory austerity on the EU.

To clarify my own points. The UN investigation concluded austerity was a 'political choice' by OUR own government (which many of us already knew) . Many people voted to leave the EU because they falsly blamed the EU & migrants for the impact of our own governments domestic policies. And outside the EU the tories will use the chaos to ramp up their austerity & hammer us even harder. Disaster capitalism at its finest. So clearly leaving the EU is not the answer.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This has to be one of the most contradictory sentences I've ever seen.
> 
> Timely:Smuggrin
> 
> JK destroys Bakers logic!
> 
> *J.K. Rowling*‏Verified account @jk_rowling 2h2 hours ago
> J.K. Rowling Retweeted Steve Baker MP
> _
> "It is very tempting for *so-called experts* to sneer that unicorns aren't real, but the simple truth is that none of these sneering 'scientists' have tried to breed any._
> 
> *Steve Baker MP*‏Verified account @SteveBakerHW
> _"It is very tempting for Remainers to gloat and say the Brexiteers have been living in a fantasy land because what they asked for was impossible.
> But what we asked for has not been attempted._
> 
> .......................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> Apologies if I've misunderstood then, but your posts appeared to me to be blaming Tory austerity on the EU.
> 
> To clarify my own points. The UN investigation concluded austerity was a 'political choice' by OUR own government (which many of us already knew) . Many people voted to leave the EU because they falsly blamed the EU & migrants for the impact of our own governments domestic policies. And outside the EU the tories will use the chaos to ramp up their austerity & hammer us even harder. Disaster capitalism at its finest. So clearly leaving the EU is not the answer.
> 
> .



I give up.

Edited.
Oh please don't misconstrue what I have just said.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I give up.
> 
> Edited.
> Oh please don't misconstrue what I have just said.


I didn't


----------



## Elles

As I said before, I wasn't then and I'm not now, blaming Tory imposed austerity on the Eu. Read MM's links in post #4418

I linked similar expert views when we had this discussion before.

The first link in the post I mean is:

https://www.equaltimes.org/even-in-the-face-of-austerity-and?lang=en#.W_lEqoqnyhB


----------



## noushka05

A _so called _expert.

*David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen 1h1 hour ago
The Brexit deal on offer is the direct and necessary consequence of the Brexiteers' demand for a speedy Article 50 notification and the Brexiteers' insistence on their "red lines".

No other Brexit deal was then possible.

Brexiteers only have themselves to blame

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> As I said before, I wasn't then and I'm not now, blaming Tory imposed austerity on the Eu. Read MM's links in post #4418
> 
> I linked similar expert views when we had this discussion before.
> 
> The first link in the post I mean is:
> 
> https://www.equaltimes.org/even-in-the-face-of-austerity-and?lang=en#.W_lEqoqnyhB


I totally accept the EU is a vehicle for neoliberal ideology, I've said so many times before. Which is why we need progressive governments & MEPs to reform it from within.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen 1h1 hour ago
> No other Brexit deal was then possible.
> 
> Brexiteers only have themselves to blame
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Brexitiers (and most leave voters if not all) didn't want a deal so why blame them for a deal a remainer PM negotiated it?


----------



## Happy Paws2

This is how I feel at the moment :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead :Banghead


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexitiers (and most leave voters if not all) didn't want a deal so why blame them for a deal a remainer PM negotiated it?


And repeat.

*David Allen Green*‏ @davidallengreen 1h1 hour ago
The Brexit deal on offer is the direct and necessary consequence of the Brexiteers' demand for a speedy Article 50 notification and the Brexiteers' insistence on their "red lines".

No other Brexit deal was then possible.

Brexiteers only have themselves to blame

..............................................................


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexitiers (and most leave voters if not all) didn't want a deal so why blame them for a deal a remainer PM negotiated it?


Are you seriously saying that most leave voters consciously and deliberately voted for a no deal Brexit?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...les-vote-1-5790925?utm_medium=email&utm_sourc
> 
> *JAMES BALL: Article 50 ruling could bring chaos*


Thanks for that.

I agree that it could certainly go either way and cause problems, but I still disagree with the UK Govt's attempt to stop the case.

To make the best decision on the way forwards we (they) need all the facts.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brexitiers (and most leave voters if not all) didn't want a deal *so why blame them for a deal a remainer PM negotiated it?


Even you don't believe that, surely.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Remainers and Labour supporters were furious about digs, jokes and memes about Diane Abbott. Now they're at it themselves.


Corbyn wing Labour supporters perhaps, but certainly not remainers in general!

She's as keen to see Brexit as Corbyn is.

While I obviously prefer Corbyn to May I'm not afraid to criticise him over his brexit beliefs.

Then, I suppose we should be grateful for him voicing his objections to May's plan.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> I totally accept the EU is a vehicle for neoliberal ideology, I've said so many times before. Which is why we need progressive governments & MEPs to reform it from within.


I have not once seen you express this view, or agree with me when I have.  In my view you have every time talked about how the Tories are to blame. Including in the discussion we were just having.

We don't have a so called progressive government or MEPs.

The Eu were warned by their own experts where these policies were leading and they failed to do anything about it. In a previous thread I've linked video and articles by experts from before our referendum and migrant crises and what they were saying afterwards. @Arnie83 has also touched on it in part. I agree with much of arnie's assessments and what they'd like to see globally, they might even look at the same experts I do, we just don't entirely agree when talking about the Eu's part in this utopian future. 

We could stay in and try to change it from within, but given our voting system and our current leadership policy, I think it's doubtful we would change it for the better at the moment. We need another shift in politics and fresh blood. It'll happen, but there's no sign of it today. Leaving might just be the catalyst we and the Eu needed.

I believe that brexiteers wanted to cut ties with the Eu and if there was any deal at all, negotiate the lightest of deals. So yes, I too believe that many, if not most brexiteers would still prefer no deal, to one that ties us to the Eu.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Are you seriously saying that most leave voters consciously and deliberately voted for a no deal Brexit?


and @Arnie83 and @KittenKong (just so I don't have to reply separately to you both):

Well define leave. Oh sorry that has been described in so many ways by some remainers in the last 2 years because they don't undertsand the word "leave".

Old people, middle aged people, young people (18 to 24 year olds) all voted to leave on the 23rd June 2016.

But let's not go over old ground again as I know some remainers still don't accept the result and want a never-ending thread on this like they want a neverendum ( a referendum every couple of years) because they wouldn't accept things first time around (the first result).

The withdrawal agreement will have to do to bridge things over I guess.

I have listened to remainers telling me how wrong I was to vote leave for 24 months and I have heard those remainers that have said just get on with it we accept the result. This withdrawal agreement is the only way to stop the bickering, it was never meant to satisfy everyone and no one will be a winner with this withdrawal agreement we was warned of this.

It doesn't matter how I feel about things or how you feel about things. This is a half way agreement.


----------



## Elles

@Magyarmum you're linking some great articles at the moment. Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Don't get me wrong if there was a leadership challenge against May I would back a brexitier. But as every day passes it seems less likely there is going to be a vote of confidence against May at all.

I am not defeated as a leave voter. I am trying to see things objectively with having a deal or my preferred method of cutting all ties with no deal. But the decision is not mine at the end of the day as I am not an MP. I will just have to accept what is decided.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> No wonder Mrs Thatcher called unions, "The enemy within".
> 
> https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/why-mrs-mays-brexit-deal-threatens-your-rights-work
> 
> View attachment 377394


Vote the Tories out then if you think that's what they'll do when we leave the Eu. Unions aren't what they were in Thatcher's day, but their members still have a vote and we still have general elections. Labour need a better leader than Corbyn though. The country is practically begging for it imo.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hammond insists the withdrawal agreement being offered is better than staying in the EU.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46325663

Thw EU will not offer a better deal: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46312909


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour are not offering a better option they are talking about bringing the UK back to day 1. The EU though from the soundings in Europe are not willing to renegotiate the current withdrawal agreement at all. So how Corbyn expects to change their minds I do not know.

Corbyn is not the person to take the UK out of the EU. He is worse than May. That is my opinion.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 When talking about immigration, you're focusing on the U.K., and the tories again. I know you said you didn't have time to read @Magyarmum 's links, but they are so relevant.

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2018/04/03/eu-remains-unprepared-for-next-migration-crisis-pub-75965

This is about the Eu and Europe. People in the U.K. can still see what's happening outside of the U.K.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Hammond insists the withdrawal agreement being offered is better than staying in the EU.


He's lying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> He's lying.


No he's not. The withdrawal agreement on the table is what is on offer. I have a few other comments but refrain from saying them to avoid an endless debate.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> He's lying.


No. He isn't. However your idea of what's better and his are 2 different things. 

Let's say we have to leave, because of the referendum and the government have little choice other than to deliver. MPs could lose their position, their jobs, their pensions if they don't. Plus remaining could mean years of dissent, calls for another vote, civil unrest etc etc. Then any leaving is better than remaining. Ergo the deal on offer is better than staying in the Eu.

Hence he's not lying.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> *I have not once seen you express this view*, or agree with me when I have.  In my view you have every time talked about how the Tories are to blame. Including in the discussion we were just having.
> 
> We don't have a so called progressive government or MEPs.
> 
> The Eu were warned by their own experts where these policies were leading and they failed to do anything about it. In a previous thread I've linked video and articles by experts from before our referendum and migrant crises and what they were saying afterwards. @Arnie83 has also touched on it in part. I agree with much of arnie's assessments and what they'd like to see globally, they might even look at the same experts I do, we just don't entirely agree when talking about the Eu's part in this utopian future.
> 
> We could stay in and try to change it from within, but given our voting system and our current leadership policy, I think it's doubtful we would change it for the better at the moment. We need another shift in politics and fresh blood. It'll happen, but there's no sign of it today. Leaving might just be the catalyst we and the Eu needed.
> 
> I believe that brexiteers wanted to cut ties with the Eu and if there was any deal at all, negotiate the lightest of deals. So yes, I too believe that many, if not most brexiteers would still prefer no deal, to one that ties us to the Eu.


Well I have - many times.

I cant quote them because the threads have been closed, but here are a couple of examples.

noushka05, Jun 22, 2016
The EU is a neoliberal train wreck, but it offers us more social & environmental protection than a bunch of far right thatcherites would. That is the choice. A vote for the tory party is vote for neoliberal ideology. Thatcherism is neoliberalism.

George Monbiot nails it -

*The European Union is the worst choice - apart from the alternative*

*The EU is a festering cesspool. But it's a crystal spring compared with what the outers want to do - surrender Britain's sovereignty to the United States*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty

noushka05, Sep 9, 2017
I still have big respect for ole Dennis, hes very principled. There is of course, an anti-neoliberal argument for leaving the EU but what we are going to end up with now is neoliberalism on steroids! And we cant make progressive changes to the EU for the outside of it. Dennis is playing into the hands of the hard right I'm afraid when hes normally so astute.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................
Obviously_ we_ dont have a progressive government - quite the opposite!. But we do have some fantastically progressive MEPs. If people dont want austerity they need to take responsibility for their politics and vote for progressives.

,,,,


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I have not once seen you express this view, or agree with me when I have.  In my view you have every time talked about how the Tories are to blame. Including in the discussion we were just having.
> 
> We don't have a so called progressive government or MEPs.
> 
> The Eu were warned by their own experts where these policies were leading and they failed to do anything about it. In a previous thread I've linked video and articles by experts from before our referendum and migrant crises and what they were saying afterwards. @Arnie83 has also touched on it in part. I agree with much of arnie's assessments and what they'd like to see globally, they might even look at the same experts I do, we just don't entirely agree when talking about the Eu's part in this utopian future.
> 
> We could stay in and try to change it from within, but given our voting system and our current leadership policy, I think it's doubtful we would change it for the better at the moment. We need another shift in politics and fresh blood. It'll happen, but there's no sign of it today. Leaving might just be the catalyst we and the Eu needed.
> 
> I believe that brexiteers wanted to cut ties with the Eu and if there was any deal at all, negotiate the lightest of deals. So yes, I too believe that many, if not most brexiteers would still prefer no deal, to one that ties us to the Eu.


Even on this thread >>>



noushka05 said:


> Trump is the result of right wing populism over there. If you werent influenced by right wing populism, why did you keep posting things on other brexit related threads about 'taking our country back'? Making britain great again? *Of course there was 'lexit' vote too. I realise that many of those on the left who voted leave saw the EU as a vehicle for neoliberalism (which it is!)*
> 
> I'm afraid of the rise of the far right, I said as much *before* the referendum, its one of the reasons I voted remain. (please read the whole article in my previous post)


----------



## Elles

Ah ok. Probably in amongst the long copy/pastes that I scroll past. 

You’ve never agreed with me when I’ve said it and linked expert opinion on it though, or pointed out that many experts warned the Eu what they were causing to a degree across Europe. You can’t blame people for not liking the Eu and wanting to get rid of it rather than change it from the inside though, when it’s own experts have said its bureaucracy isn’t listening.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU Leaders are being instructed to accept the withdrawal agreement. Spain has dropped it's opposition.










So the process has started to push the withdrawal deal through. As I said before it is not how I feel about the withdrawal agreement or how much you protest against leaving the EU. The beginning of the end of leaving the EU is starting.


----------



## Elles

I wonder what the agreement over Gibraltar is.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No. He isn't. However your idea of what's better and his are 2 different things.
> 
> Let's say we have to leave, because of the referendum and the government have little choice other than to deliver. MPs could lose their position, their jobs, their pensions if they don't. Plus remaining could mean years of dissent, calls for another vote, civil unrest etc etc. Then any leaving is better than remaining. Ergo the deal on offer is better than staying in the Eu.
> 
> Hence he's not lying.


That's stretching it! 

The Treasury have, with his public approval, repeatedly said that whatever the type of Brexit the country will be poorer.

I suppose he could be following your logic wrt civil unrest if the Leavers are thwarted, but as regards economics, he knows damn well that we would be better off staying in. He's just trying to get May's deal through.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Ah ok. Probably in amongst the long copy/pastes that I scroll past.
> 
> You've never agreed with me when I've said it and linked expert opinion on it though, or pointed out that many experts warned the Eu what they were causing to a degree across Europe. You can't blame people for not liking the Eu and wanting to get rid of it rather than change it from the inside though, when it's own experts have said its bureaucracy isn't listening.


Not at all Elles, two of the examples I've just given were short paragraphs. I dont have the time to reply to everything - and to be fair, you dont even quote people half the time, so I probably miss loads of your posts anyway.

I dont blame people for not liking the EU, I'm not that keen myself! - but the point is we are cutting our nose off to spite our face, as we are heading for something a million times worse. How will that help people already suffering under the cosh of tory austerity? The best chance we have of helping people is staying in and reforming it. The best hope we have of addressing the climate crisis is within the EU.

The worst people on the planet are pro brexit. Hostile forces are behind the leave campaign - if that doesnt ring alarm bells I dont know what will.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The worst people on the planet are pro brexit. Hostile forces are behind the leave campaign - if that doesnt ring alarm bells I dont know what will.




The remain campaign wasnt exactly perfect. But hey ho.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> That's stretching it!
> 
> The Treasury have, with his public approval, repeatedly said that whatever the type of Brexit the country will be poorer.
> 
> I suppose he could be following your logic wrt civil unrest if the Leavers are thwarted, but as regards economics, he knows damn well that we would be better off staying in. He's just trying to get May's deal through.


I suppose having this deal is better than economic turmoil and uncertainity and businesses will know what is happening now as there will be an end game that being leaving the EU with this agreement.

Alot worse could have happened. Civil Unrest, riots etc.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Not at all Elles, two of the examples I've just given were short paragraphs. I dont have the time to reply to everything - and to be fair, you dont even quote people half the time, so I probably miss loads of your posts anyway.
> 
> I dont blame people for not liking the EU, I'm not that keen myself! - but the point is we are cutting our nose off to spite our face, as we are heading for something a million times worse. How will that help people already suffering under the cosh of tory austerity? The best chance we have of helping people is staying in and reforming it. The best hope we have of addressing the climate crisis is within the EU.
> 
> The worst people on the planet are pro brexit. Hostile forces are behind the leave campaign - if that doesnt ring alarm bells I dont know what will.


They might be short paragraphs, but you do tend to post a few long copy/pastes from twitter and the like all at once, so I scroll past the whole lot in the mornings.  If my post is aimed at an individual specifically I do try to remember to @ I've been pulled up on it a couple of times. @noushka05

You have to remember I voted remain. My granddaughter will be born in Gibraltar in a couple of weeks all being well. My other son's partner is back in hospital in Germany, their tumour having returned.  All of this is quite important to me and my family. It doesn't stop me from having some sympathy for people who want to get out of the Eu, or try to understand why they might have voted how they did. I agree with leave voters in many respects and I don't like the way they're being blamed for everything from the price of coffee to the weather. Eu policies are in no small way responsible for our voting to leave it and unless that's accepted, there will be no change imho.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> That's stretching it!
> 
> The Treasury have, with his public approval, repeatedly said that whatever the type of Brexit the country will be poorer.
> 
> I suppose he could be following your logic wrt civil unrest if the Leavers are thwarted, but as regards economics, he knows damn well that we would be better off staying in. He's just trying to get May's deal through.


Indeed, he said it's a compromise. I'm reading between the lines. He didn't say it's better economically, he just said better.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> (I dont have time to read your links at the moment)
> But austerity in the UK was solely due to the political choice of the tory government MM. Have you seen the damning findings of the UN investigation?
> 
> _SECOND AD BANNED FROM TV
> 
> Advert for Tory government's choice to inflict austerit*y* on the people creating widespread extreme poverty. Starring @Alston_UNSR a true story about the UN report on poverty in the *UK* considered too political by __@BBCN_ews
> 
> (please check out the video on the link. Makes me feel so ashamed and furious! )
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063707336936701952


I've read the UN report in full (twice in fact) and agree it's quite horrific. Perhaps however you would like to read his reports on the USA and Romania where by contrast despite the situation in the US being just as dire, he's far less scathing.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22533

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=16737&LangID=E

And I can't agree with your statement that, and I quote "But austerity in the UK was solely due to the political choice of the tory government" because it wasn't.

Under the EU Maastricht Treaty

" EU member states may not have a budget deficit that exceeds three percent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or a national debt that exceeds of sixty percent of the GDP. Listed below are the EU states' 2009 government budget deficits as percentages of GDP, their official predicted future government budget deficit as a percent of GDP".

This is the list for the national debt as a percentage of GDP of EU member states for 2009.

https://www.europeaninstitute.org/i...cial-reform/1180-austerity-measures-in-the-eu

And this is what the UK elected to do IN ORDER TO COMPLY WITH THE EU MAASTRICHT CRITERIA

_"United Kingdom_-The British government unveiled the country's steepest public spending cuts in more than 60 years: €83 billion in spending cuts by 2015, bringing the 11 percent of GDP budget deficit down to one percent over the next five years. The new budget includes reducing costs in government departments by an average of 19 percent; a 24 percent cut to the Department of Culture (includes the BBC); raising the retirement age from 65 to 66 by 2020; eliminating 490,000 public sector jobs over the next four years, university cuts; lowering long-term unemployment benefits from 95% to 70% and eliminating benefits to those who do not seek jobs; eliminating child benefits to those earning more than €70,000 as well as other cuts to the welfare system. Defense spending will decrease by eight percent and police spending will decrease by four percent. The VAT tax will rise from 17.5 to 20 percent in January."

Various article and views on the subject for anyone that's interested....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...5-years-european-dream-trade-echr-neoliberal-
a7388796.html

https://www.socialeurope.eu/need-rewrite-maastricht-rules

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/12/04/that-treaty-deficit-maastricht-and-austerity/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I've read the UN report in full (twice in fact) and agree it's quite horrific. Perhaps however you would like to read his reports on the USA and Romania where by contrast despite the situation in the US being just as dire, he's far less scathing.
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22533
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=16737&LangID=E
> 
> And I can't agree with your statement that, and I quote "But austerity in the UK was solely due to the political choice of the tory government" because it wasn't.
> 
> Under the EU Maastricht Treaty
> 
> " EU member states may not have a budget deficit that exceeds three percent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or a national debt that exceeds of sixty percent of the GDP. Listed below are the EU states' 2009 government budget deficits as percentages of GDP, their official predicted future government budget deficit as a percent of GDP".
> 
> This is the list for the national debt as a percentage of GDP of EU member states for 2009.
> 
> https://www.europeaninstitute.org/i...cial-reform/1180-austerity-measures-in-the-eu
> 
> And this is what the UK elected to do IN ORDER TO COMPLY WITH THE EU MAASTRICHT CRITERIA
> 
> _"United Kingdom_-The British government unveiled the country's steepest public spending cuts in more than 60 years: €83 billion in spending cuts by 2015, bringing the 11 percent of GDP budget deficit down to one percent over the next five years. The new budget includes reducing costs in government departments by an average of 19 percent; a 24 percent cut to the Department of Culture (includes the BBC); raising the retirement age from 65 to 66 by 2020; eliminating 490,000 public sector jobs over the next four years, university cuts; lowering long-term unemployment benefits from 95% to 70% and eliminating benefits to those who do not seek jobs; eliminating child benefits to those earning more than €70,000 as well as other cuts to the welfare system. Defense spending will decrease by eight percent and police spending will decrease by four percent. The VAT tax will rise from 17.5 to 20 percent in January."
> 
> Various article and views on the subject for anyone that's interested....
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...5-years-european-dream-trade-echr-neoliberal-
> a7388796.html
> 
> https://www.socialeurope.eu/need-rewrite-maastricht-rules
> 
> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/12/04/that-treaty-deficit-maastricht-and-austerity/


Phew that was a long post.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Weren't the spending cuts a result of the global 2007 to 2008 financial crisis as well?


----------



## Arnie83

*Dominic Raab: Theresa May's deal worse than staying in EU*


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Vote the Tories out then if you think that's what they'll do when we leave the Eu. Unions aren't what they were in Thatcher's day, but their members still have a vote and we still have general elections. Labour need a better leader than Corbyn though. The country is practically begging for it imo.


You only have to hear about how they'll bulldoze worker's rights after Brexit! I didn't say that, they did!

Don't forget, the Tories were against the introduction of the minimum wage when Labour proposed that in 1997.

I think that says enough!

Of course I would vote the Tories out if I could. My vote alone won't do that!

When they win the next election thanks to the media, (Corbyn doesn't help himself either to be fair), we can expect them to say being forced to work over 40 hours a week, no increase in pay and a reduction in holiday entitlements as being, "The will of the people".

Arguably, by voting Tory in 1987 the Poll Tax was the, "Will of the people" as it was clearly in their manifesto.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *Dominic Raab: Theresa May's deal worse than staying in EU*


Yes we already know.
Then he said this on twit ter.









He wants No Deal.

Remainers and remainer press yet again twisting what brexitier MP's are actually saying.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The remain campaign wasnt exactly perfect. But hey ho.


Far from it, seeing the organ grinder David Cameron was stupid enough to hold the referendum in the first place to prove a point and unite his party.

He was as convinced of winning it as May is about her deal being the Brexit everyone voted for.

Wait a minute, most Brexiters argue she isn't delivering what they voted for, let alone the 48% who voted against this farce!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes we already know.
> Then he said this on twit ter.
> View attachment 377453
> 
> 
> He wants No Deal.
> 
> Remainers and remainer press yet again twisting what brexitier MP's are actually saying.


He doesn't want to remain, but he still thinks the current deal is worse than staying. Unless he was lying.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Duplicate post. Deleted.


----------



## Elles

Over 40 hours a week @KittenKong ? Zero hours contract Yorkshireman jumps to his feet and says 'I can't even DREAM of 40 hours a week'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> but he still thinks the current deal is worse than staying. Unless he was lying.


No he doesn't. Listen to the full interview instead of picking on pieces of it.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I wonder what the agreement over Gibraltar is.


As you can imagine The Guardian has a rather different take on the story when compared to the BBC who give Theresa May nothing but hero worship.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-way-over-gibraltar-after-spains-veto-threat


----------



## Elles

Doesn’t he mean Remain is Armageddon, but this deal is even worse. #nodeal ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> As you can imagine The Guardian has a rather different take on the story when compared to the BBC who give Theresa May nothing but hero worship.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-way-over-gibraltar-after-spains-veto-threat
> 
> View attachment 377454
> View attachment 377455


Spain doesn't have a veto on the withdrawal agreement. Whoops didn't someone tell them that, hence why they have withdrawn their opposition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Doesn't he mean Remain is Armageddon, but this deal is even worse. #nodeal ?


That is exactly what he meant.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Over 40 hours a week @KittenKong ? Zero hours contract Yorkshireman jumps to his feet and says 'I can't even DREAM of 40 hours a week'.


I used to work a zero hours contract. You could choose to work 50+hrs if you wanted to if the work was available.

The following week you could be offered only 4 hours. Perhaps 16 the week after if you're lucky.

Nothing to laugh about....


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I used to work a zero hours contract. You could choose to work 50+hrs if you wanted to if the work was available.
> 
> The following week you could be offered only 4 hours. Perhaps 16 the week after if you're lucky.
> 
> Nothing to laugh about....




Wry laugh isn't in the emoticons, that's the best I could do.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat. said:


> Spain doesn't have a veto on the withdrawal agreement. Whoops didn't someone tell them that, hence why they have withdrawn their opposition.


They've withdrawn their opposition because they have a guarantee Gibraltar is still on the table and so gets no protection for the future.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I used to work a zero hours contract. You could choose to work 50+hrs if you wanted to if the work was available.
> 
> The following week you could be offered only 4 hours. Perhaps 16 the week after if you're lucky.
> 
> Nothing to laugh about....


Self employed people can go weeks without work. Everyone is surviving. It is the world of today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

havoc said:


> They've withdrawn their opposition because they have a guarantee Gibraltar is still on the table and so gets no protection for the future.


Well that's funny because wasn't it anmounced they had already come to a deal with Gibraltar two or three weeks ago?


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Self employed people can go weeks without work. Everyone is surviving. It is the world of today.


Yep. One week we might make some good sales, the next barely anything. I used to work for a temp agency too. You daren't turn anything down, because you didn't know if there'd be anything the next week. When employers hold all the cards, it usually isn't great for employees.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Doesn't he mean Remain is Armageddon, but this deal is even worse. #nodeal ?


He certainly doesn't like the Remain idea, he just said May's deal is, as you say, even worse. I.e. not as good.

Just playing with semantics, to be fair.


----------



## Arnie83

Though, of course ...

*"Mrs May declined to say whether the UK would be better off outside the EU, saying only it would be "different"".*​


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The remain campaign wasnt exactly perfect. But hey ho.


I've said it was. I said the nastiest people/organisations all supported leave.



Elles said:


> They might be short paragraphs, but you do tend to post a few long copy/pastes from twitter and the like all at once, so I scroll past the whole lot in the mornings.  If my post is aimed at an individual specifically I do try to remember to @ I've been pulled up on it a couple of times. @noushka05
> 
> You have to remember I voted remain. My granddaughter will be born in Gibraltar in a couple of weeks all being well. My other son's partner is back in hospital in Germany, their tumour having returned.  All of this is quite important to me and my family. It doesn't stop me from having some sympathy for people who want to get out of the Eu, or try to understand why they might have voted how they did. I agree with leave voters in many respects and I don't like the way they're being blamed for everything from the price of coffee to the weather. Eu policies are in no small way responsible for our voting to leave it and unless that's accepted, there will be no change imho.


Its my fault then.

Very sorry your Sons partner is poorly, I hope they will get better soon. I understand why some voted leave & I sympathise with them. We were sold a pack of lies, but now things are becoming clear brexit is a complete shambles I have great sympathy & respect for those who voted leave & coming out & saying they've now changed their minds.



Magyarmum said:


> I've read the UN report in full (twice in fact) and agree it's quite horrific. Perhaps however you would like to read his reports on the USA and Romania where by contrast despite the situation in the US being just as dire, he's far less scathing.
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22533
> 
> https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=16737&LangID=E
> 
> And I can't agree with your statement that, and I quote "But austerity in the UK was solely due to the political choice of the tory government" because it wasn't.
> 
> Under the EU Maastricht Treaty
> 
> " EU member states may not have a budget deficit that exceeds three percent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or a national debt that exceeds of sixty percent of the GDP. Listed below are the EU states' 2009 government budget deficits as percentages of GDP, their official predicted future government budget deficit as a percent of GDP".
> 
> This is the list for the national debt as a percentage of GDP of EU member states for 2009.
> 
> https://www.europeaninstitute.org/i...cial-reform/1180-austerity-measures-in-the-eu
> 
> And this is what the UK elected to do IN ORDER TO COMPLY WITH THE EU MAASTRICHT CRITERIA
> 
> _"United Kingdom_-The British government unveiled the country's steepest public spending cuts in more than 60 years: €83 billion in spending cuts by 2015, bringing the 11 percent of GDP budget deficit down to one percent over the next five years. The new budget includes reducing costs in government departments by an average of 19 percent; a 24 percent cut to the Department of Culture (includes the BBC); raising the retirement age from 65 to 66 by 2020; eliminating 490,000 public sector jobs over the next four years, university cuts; lowering long-term unemployment benefits from 95% to 70% and eliminating benefits to those who do not seek jobs; eliminating child benefits to those earning more than €70,000 as well as other cuts to the welfare system. Defense spending will decrease by eight percent and police spending will decrease by four percent. The VAT tax will rise from 17.5 to 20 percent in January."
> 
> Various article and views on the subject for anyone that's interested....
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...5-years-european-dream-trade-echr-neoliberal-
> a7388796.html
> 
> https://www.socialeurope.eu/need-rewrite-maastricht-rules
> 
> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/12/04/that-treaty-deficit-maastricht-and-austerity/


It was a political choice by the tories MM. The UK is exempt from Maastricht rules as it has its own currency. It applied to countries wishing to join the Euro.

The tories austerity is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, poverty & homelessness on a terrific scale - whilst the wealth of the richest doubled. 'We're all in this together' they said!

The great Paul Krugman did ths excellent article on the subject MM.

*The case for cuts was a lie. Why does Britain still believe it?*
*The austerity delusion*

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I've said it was. I said the nastiest people/organisations all supported leave.
> 
> Its my fault then.
> 
> Very sorry your Sons partner is poorly, I hope they will get better. I understand why some voted leave & I sympathise with them. We were sold a pack of lies, but now things are becoming clear brexit is a complete shambles I have great sympathy & respect for those who voted leave & coming out & saying they've now changed their minds.
> 
> I was a political choice by the tories MM. The UK is exempt from Maastricht rules as it has its own currency. It applied to countries wishing to join the Euro.
> 
> The tories austerity is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, poverty & homelessness on a terrific scale - whilst the wealth of the richest doubled. 'We're all in this together' they said!
> 
> The great Paul Krugman did ths ecxellent article on the subject MM.
> 
> *The case for cuts was a lie. Why does Britain still believe it?*
> *The austerity delusion*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion
> 
> .


UK's involvement with the Maaistricht Treaty.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> UK's envolvement with the Maaistricht Treaty.
> View attachment 377460
> 
> View attachment 377461


The UK has an opt out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The UK has an opt out.


I don't think we have used it though as the UK is bound to EU rules and Regulations and ECJ decisions.

Ireland, Denmark, UK and Poland all have opt outs on the Maaistricht treaty but I don't think (I maybe wrong) we have used the opt out.


----------



## Elles

Not the pack of lies @noushka05 but the truth. The truth is that its hard to sell the Eu to the public, because of what it is. Not because of what it isn't. It was difficult for Remain to counter many of the leave side's claims, because they were true. Not all of them and there were plenty of lies, propaganda and deliberate misdirection, but if you take everything that is accurate and that is true about the Eu, for many it's more than enough reason to leave it, rather than stay in and try to change it, which you chose to do.

I agree with what you say about cuts and austerity. I also agree with criticism of how we care for the elderly and vulnerable at the moment. There needs to be more money and it needs to get to the people who need it more promptly. I see that some small changes have been made towards that, but nothing like enough imo.

I maybe have problems with the copy/paste articles etc because I'm not viewing this on a computer screen and most of it is a mess. It's all over the place, with different size fonts, some bold, some huge. Paragraphs split, layout muddled. Pictures larger than my screen. Blank spaces. Then sometimes a tiny sentence somewhere in between it. So I scroll past it because it's difficult to follow, or make sense of and it's not what someone here is saying. It doesn't matter who posted it.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think we have used it though as the UK is bound to EU rules and Regulations and ECJ decisions.
> 
> Ireland, Denmark, UK and Poland all have opt outs on the Maaistricht treaty but I don't think (I maybe wrong) we have used the opt out.


The Tory coalition imposed austerity on us - not Maastrict. Even the ,architect of austerity, Osborne is still only using the last labour government as his scapegoat.

Did anyone see Polly Toynbee on Newsnight recently?
*
"This man has done such harm and damage to this country… your treatment of the poorest people in this country has been despicable"*
*

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1057409432018018305*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> UK's involvement with the Maaistricht Treaty.
> View attachment 377460
> 
> View attachment 377461


So if transfer of powers requires a referendum, as your quote rightly says, and May's deal gives up power and sovereignty to the EU, (as loudly claimed by Boris, Rees-Mogg, IDS, Raab etc), since we will no longer have any say over the rules we have to follow during the next 2 years at least, then presumably we have to have a referendum on that deal.


----------



## Elles

Ok let’s say the Tories did impose austerity on us, nothing to with the Eu. If it was up the Eu, would they? The answer is probably yes. Would the Tories impose it on us, just to meet Eu recommendations and requirements? Probably not. It’s a policy decision and tactic that the Eu and the Tories use. Where the Eu have imposed it, the poor have suffered even more than they have here. 

Imo it’s a broader issue than just Brexit and how it effects the U.K.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The great Paul Krugman ...


Now _he_ is an expert we should all listen to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So if transfer of powers requires a referendum, as your quote rightly says, and May's deal gives up power and sovereignty to the EU, (as loudly claimed by Boris, Rees-Mogg, IDS, Raab etc), since we will no longer have any say over the rules we have to follow during the next 2 years at least, then presumably we have to have a referendum on that deal.


You first then @noushka05. We had that 2 years ago. The UK public was asked if it wanted to leave the EU. Transfer of power back to Westminster from Brussels.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The Tory coalition imposed austerity on us - not Maastrict. Even the ,architect of austerity, Osborne is still only using the last labour government as his scapegoat.
> 
> Did anyone see Polly Toynbee on Newsnight recently?
> *
> "This man has done such harm and damage to this country… your treatment of the poorest people in this country has been despicable"
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1057409432018018305*


You was asking about the maaistrict treaty then bounce to austerity. Two different topics. I am confused. Are you trying to link them both? Well let's rewind. 2007 to 2008 global financial crash, labour spends big time. Put them two together and work out why we had austerity. Don't forget we had a war or 2 inbetween.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Not the pack of lies @noushka05 but the truth. The truth is that its hard to sell the Eu to the public, because of what it is. Not because of what it isn't. It was difficult for Remain to counter many of the leave side's claims, because they were true. Not all of them and there were plenty of lies, propaganda and deliberate misdirection, but if you take everything that is accurate and that is true about the Eu, for many it's more than enough reason to leave it, rather than stay in and try to change it, which you chose to do.
> 
> I agree with what you say about cuts and austerity. I also agree with criticism of how we care for the elderly and vulnerable at the moment. There needs to be more money and it needs to get to the people who need it more promptly. I see that some small changes have been made towards that, but nothing like enough imo.
> 
> I maybe have problems with the copy/paste articles etc because I'm not viewing this on a computer screen and most of it is a mess. It's all over the place, with different size fonts, some bold, some huge. Paragraphs split, layout muddled. Pictures larger than my screen. Blank spaces. Then sometimes a tiny sentence somewhere in between it. So I scroll past it because it's difficult to follow, or make sense of and it's not what someone here is saying. It doesn't matter who posted it.


Errm practically everything the leave campaign said has been debunked as a lie. Whereas the progressive remain camp have been proved bang on. Brexit is a complete & utter shambles & thats before we've left!. Its distracting us from the greatest threat we face. Nothing should be more important than saving our planet - yet all over the news its brexit, brexit, brexit......

We are going to be worse off in all areas. We know brexit will make us poorer and that means those at the very bottom will suffer the most. The EU is far from perfect, but we will find out shortly its hell of a lot better than what we are going to end up with. I think a hell of a lot of people are going to miss the EU when the disaster capitalist swoop in.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You was asking about the maaistrict treaty then bounce to austerity. Two different topics. I am confused. Are you trying to link them both. Well let's rewind. 2007 to 2008 global financial crash, labour spends big time. Put them two together why we had austerity.


Good grief.

So austerity is labours fault - AGAIN

Do you know who Paul Krugman is SWC?

*The case for cuts was a lie. Why does Britain still believe it?*
*The austerity delusion*
https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Now _he_ is an expert we should all listen to.


.

A heavyweight of the economics world. A so-called expert to others


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Good grief.
> 
> So austerity is labours fault - AGAIN
> 
> Do you know who Paul Krugman is SWC?
> 
> *The case for cuts was a lie. Why does Britain still believe it?*
> *The austerity delusion*
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion


Was the Iraq war necessary?
Did the UK have to get involved in Afghanistan?
Unnecessary loss of British soldiers lives.
Total waste of money.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> .
> 
> A heavyweight of the economics world. A so-called expert to others


Who?

:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pay attention Leavers ... you dropped us in it!

This is my home, my life and 38 000 others.
Spain celebrating....


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Was the Iraq war necessary?
> Did the UK have to get involved in Afghanistan?
> Unnecessary loss of British soldiers lives.
> Total waste of money.


What's this got to Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 377470
> Pay attention Leavers ... you dropped us in it!
> 
> This is my home, my life and 38 000 others.
> Spain celebrating....


Should have voted leave


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> What's this got to Brexit.


Ask @noushka05 she is banging on about austerity and what caused it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Should have voted leave


Then what?
So you think Britain punished us for not wanting to have our economy destroyed?
Just to remind you we voted 99 percent to stay British.

This is not a time for smilies.
Your vote is destroying Gibraltar, not ours.

But you don't care... not your lovely house?
Not your life, so it is fun to watch...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Then what?
> So you think Britain punished us for not wanting to have our economy destroyed?
> Just to remind you we voted 99 percent to stay British.
> 
> This is not a time for smilies.
> Your vote is destroying Gibraltar, not ours.


Best of both worlds. 
So if given chance today remain british or remain in EU which one would you vote.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 377472


Spain didn't have a veto on the withdrawal agreement. No EU country does. The press trying to sell healines.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Best of both worlds.
> So if given chance today remain british or remain in EU which one would you vote.


Both, else our economy collapses, no tourism on its own will not provide enough employment. Neither MoD which is very reduced.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Both, else our economy collapses, no tourism on its own will not provide enough employment. Neither MoD which is very reduced.


Ignore the press because under Article 50 Spain does not have a veto on the withdrawal agreement. They withdrew their oppositions hours ago when Tusk told all EU member states to agree to the agreement


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You first then @noushka05. We had that 2 years ago. The UK public was asked if it wanted to leave the EU. Transfer of power back to Westminster from Brussels.


But Boris says that May's deal transfers power to Brussels.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But Boris says that May's deal transfers power to Brussels.


Boris. Who?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Boris. Who?


Blond bloke? Egotist and self-serving idiot? Led the Leave campaign?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Blond bloke? Egotist and self-serving idiot?











Him you mean?
Oh sorry wrong one. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Gah! The truth about the Eu. The truth. Whoever said it. You said it yourself, you want to change it, others want to leave it for the same reason.

The remain camp isn't progressive. It wants to maintain the status quo. Brexit isn't great, but that's not because of Brexit, it's because of the remainers in charge of it. I voted remain, because I knew they'd mess it up.

The people who can actually save our planet aren't remotely interested in brexit.



noushka05 said:


> Errm practically everything the leave campaign said has been debunked as a lie. Whereas the progressive remain camp have been proved bang on. Brexit is a complete & utter shambles & thats before we've left!. Its distracting us from the greatest threat we face. Nothing should be more important than saving our planet - yet all over the news its brexit, brexit, brexit......
> 
> We are going to be worse off in all areas. We know brexit will make us poorer and that means those at the very bottom will suffer the most. The EU is far from perfect, but we will find out shortly its hell of a lot better than what we are going to end up with. I think a hell of a lot of people are going to miss the EU when the disaster capitalist swoop in.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## rona

https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/27/suppl_4/18/4430523


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Both, else our economy collapses, no tourism on its own will not provide enough employment. Neither MoD which is very reduced.


At the bottom of the article which KK already linked, it says nothing has changed. Do you believe Spain, or could it be an exercise in looking good?

Hopefully there will be further statements.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> At the bottom of the article which KK already linked, it says nothing has changed. Do you believe Spain, or could it be an exercise in looking good?
> 
> Hopefully there will be further statements.


I am waiting with everyone else for Picardo's statement. If you check Speak Freely people are worried sick.

The airport is at stake and that is our lifeline as you know.

Spanish people in La Linea worried too.

This town depends on Gibraltar. All Campo de Gibraltar will suffer, but Madrid rather will wave the flag than care about employment in one remote region.
It was so nice that May negotiated with Sanchez leaving our Chief Minister out.

We have no say about our own country regardless of our Constitution given by our Queen which states our sovereignty cannot be changed without us willing so!!!


----------



## Elles

Live updates here:

https://news.sky.com/story/live-spain-threatens-to-derail-crucial-brexit-meeting-11561784


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> The UK has an opt out.


Whilst that is true the EU can still censure the UK and subject us to an excessive deficit procedure, which is what has happened several times since 2006 That is why IMO it's fair to say austerity, whilst some can be blamed on the government, the EU is also to blame!

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-...ng-prevention-correction/stability-and-growth

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...low-3percent-of-gdp-council-closes-procedure/


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 377472


@cheekyscrip I feel the need to apologise to you as I have just caught up with the latest news. Earlier this was said and was what I was referring to:








So as you can imagine I thought everything was ok and what you was seeing was old news. I was wrong and apologise to you. That Spainish leader changes his mind more times than I change my underwear (I change them every day just for the record).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Live updates here:
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-spain-threatens-to-derail-crucial-brexit-meeting-11561784


I was going off what sky news said earlier as I hadn't heard any updates. Now I have caught up with the news I have apologised to @cheekyscrip.

Thanks for the link.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Live updates here:
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-spain-threatens-to-derail-crucial-brexit-meeting-11561784


What we really think is Spain will allow May to save face and say " Nothing changes " ... as for them it means " Not as yet... but since 2020... bit by bit...concession by concession ".

Some people here think that No Deal is better that bowing to Spain.

Obviously post Brexit Britain will be negotiating new trade deal with EU and then to appease Spain...

But as you know Gibraltar you realise how difficult it would be with a closed frontier.
In Franco era MoD provided jobs...

When Spain was making the infamous queue we were lodging complaints to ECJ .

Now?

NI and us are in quite vulnerable position.


----------



## Magyarmum

WORLD

*Britain gives assurances on Gibraltar, unlocking Brexit deal*
9COMMENTS
*By Euronews with Reuters• last updated: 24/11/2018*
Now Reading : 
Britain gives assurances on Gibraltar, unlocking Brexit deal


@ Copyright :
Reuters
SHARE THIS ARTICLE






9




TEXT SIZEAaAa

Britain has given assurances to Spain on Gibraltar, unlocking the Brexit deal a day before EU leaders meet in Brussels to sign off on the draft withdrawal agreement and political declaration.


Donald Tusk

✔@eucopresident

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066331706578427904
I will recommend that we approve on Sunday the outcome of the #Brexit negotiations. No one has reasons to be happy. But at least at this critical time, the EU27 has passed the test of unity and solidarity. https://europa.eu/!rb87Jr


1,433
3:04 PM - Nov 24, 2018
Twitter Ads info and privacy

1,082 people are talking about th

Spanish prime minister Pedro Sanchez threatened to veto the Brexit withdrawal agreement if no changes were made over Gibraltar- a disputed overseas British territory Spain has sovereignty claims over.

Sanchez acknowledged the agreement with Britain today and said any future decisions regarding Gibraltar would be made with Spain. The consensus has cleared the way for the EU summit on Sunday to approve British Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal.

The British government "will negotiate the future agreements implementing the Joint Political Declaration on behalf of all territories for whose external relations the UK is responsible to ensure an appropriate and beneficial future relationship with the EU, taking into account their existing relationships with the European Union," according to a letter from British ambassador to the EU council Tim Barrow clarifying Article 184.

The Spanish government wanted clarification on Article 184 of the draft, which relates to negotiations on the future relationship between the EU and Britain, saying the text was ambiguous on Gibraltar and wanted Britain to have direct talks with Madrid concerning "The Rock."

View image on Twitter


Fabian Picardo

✔@FabianPicardo

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066330715770552321
Here is our statement about #Gibraltar's future trade and other arrangements after #Brexit. We will stick with #Britain and look forward to negotiations with the #EU as part of the whole #UK family. See here for full statements from #HMGUK: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/negotiations-on-the-future-relationship-territorial-scope …


432
3:00 PM - Nov 24, 2018

397 people are talking about this

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----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Alot worse could have happened. Civil Unrest, riots etc.


I'll say nothing more...
Funny how they use an image for the anti Brexit demo. Wonder if any of his followers noticed?












stockwellcat. said:


> Self employed people can go weeks without work. Everyone is surviving. It is the world of today.


You're not seriously suggesting ALL employers should be giving out zero hour contracts are you?

Try paying the mortgage and bills when you don't know if you'll be getting work from one week to the next.

Yes, I see your point about the self employed, but most self employed people choose that lifestyle. It shouldn't be enforced onto people. It isn't in other countries.

But people in employment shouldn't be forced into becoming "self employed" because their employer decides not to give them any work for weeks at the time, yet expects them to jump when the need arises. It's reverting back to Victorian times. Can we expect the return of work houses and debtors' prisons?

Many, if not most Tory MP believe people can live on fresh air as most are privileged "Horray Henrys" who don't need to work to earn a living.

I'd rather not talk about it further, except to give praise to Tony Blair's administration for giving me the opportunites I never had under the Tories having become one of Thatcher's 3+ million unemployed where the best they could offer were schemes. I took on casual work and temporary contracts later.


----------



## Happy Paws2

To be honest all this bickering is getting silly and boring, there's nothing we can do do about right or wrong, she's not going to let us have another vote so it's take it,or leave it and don't keep banging on about something we can't do anything about.

 _*Edited for spelling and missing a word out.*_


----------



## cheekyscrip

Our Chief Minister Fabian Picardo told Sanchez that while he is removing Franco’s bones from The Valley of The Fallen he still does Franco’s bidding with his attitude to Gibraltar.
So much for socialists in power - Partido Popular would do no worse.

Bullies.

That is not the way they will get us as long as Gibraltar has any say in that matter.


----------



## Elles

A lot of people go self employed because they can't get a job. They had to bring in laws about self employment, because some employers were abusing the system and using it as an excuse not to pay sickness or holiday pay, or do their taxes and NI or pay minimum wage. They still do in some sectors. I know you said 'most', but there are certainly many who had no choice and they don't have the safety net of employment either. I think your statement about most tories being hooray Henry's who don't need to work for a living is uncalled for. 

@KittenKong


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You're not seriously suggesting ALL employers should be giving out zero hour contracts are you?


Did I say that? No.


> Try paying the mortgage and bills when you don't know if you'll be getting work from one week to the next.


Same for Self Employed.


> but most self employed people choose that lifestyle.


That statement is so wrong.


> It shouldn't be enforced onto people.


People go self employed for many reasons.

---------
You forget I supported Labour since I left school and have given my reasons many times in this thread for Labour losing my support and why I will no longer vote for them.
---------


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I think your statement about most tories being hooray Henry's who don't need to work for a living is uncalled for.
> 
> @KittenKong


The Horray Henry comment was directed at Tory politicians, not the voters.

Cameron bleated on about his "Big Society" nation of volunteers for example. People like him will never experience poverty not hardship. Most people have to work to make a living.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I've amended the post in question to make that more clear.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> WORLD
> 
> *Britain gives assurances on Gibraltar, unlocking Brexit deal*
> 9COMMENTS
> *By Euronews with Reuters• last updated: 24/11/2018*
> Now Reading :
> Britain gives assurances on Gibraltar, unlocking Brexit deal
> 
> 
> @ Copyright :
> Reuters
> SHARE THIS ARTICLE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TEXT SIZEAaAa
> 
> Britain has given assurances to Spain on Gibraltar, unlocking the Brexit deal a day before EU leaders meet in Brussels to sign off on the draft withdrawal agreement and political declaration.
> 
> 
> Donald Tusk
> 
> ✔@eucopresident
> 
> I will recommend that we approve on Sunday the outcome of the #Brexit negotiations. No one has reasons to be happy. But at least at this critical time, the EU27 has passed the test of unity and solidarity. https://europa.eu/!rb87Jr
> 
> 
> 1,433
> 3:04 PM - Nov 24, 2018
> Twitter Ads info and privacy
> 
> 1,082 people are talking about th
> 
> Spanish prime minister Pedro Sanchez threatened to veto the Brexit withdrawal agreement if no changes were made over Gibraltar- a disputed overseas British territory Spain has sovereignty claims over.
> 
> Sanchez acknowledged the agreement with Britain today and said any future decisions regarding Gibraltar would be made with Spain. The consensus has cleared the way for the EU summit on Sunday to approve British Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal.
> 
> The British government "will negotiate the future agreements implementing the Joint Political Declaration on behalf of all territories for whose external relations the UK is responsible to ensure an appropriate and beneficial future relationship with the EU, taking into account their existing relationships with the European Union," according to a letter from British ambassador to the EU council Tim Barrow clarifying Article 184.
> 
> The Spanish government wanted clarification on Article 184 of the draft, which relates to negotiations on the future relationship between the EU and Britain, saying the text was ambiguous on Gibraltar and wanted Britain to have direct talks with Madrid concerning "The Rock."
> 
> View image on Twitter
> 
> 
> Fabian Picardo
> 
> ✔@FabianPicardo
> 
> Here is our statement about #Gibraltar's future trade and other arrangements after #Brexit. We will stick with #Britain and look forward to negotiations with the #EU as part of the whole #UK family. See here for full statements from #HMGUK: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/negotiations-on-the-future-relationship-territorial-scope …
> 
> 
> 432
> 3:00 PM - Nov 24, 2018
> 
> 397 people are talking about this
> 
> Twitter Ads info and privacy


Nów Spanish right and Spanish left are having heated argument whether they got Gibraltar or not yet...

Comedy noir. 
For us.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> The Horray Henry comment was directed at Tory politicians, not the voters.
> 
> Cameron bleated on about his "Big Society" nation of volunteers for example. People like him will never experience poverty not hardship. Most people have to work to make a living.
> 
> That was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> I've amended the post in question to make that more clear.


Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Jonathan Bartley, Siân Berry all have similar backgrounds with no hardship or poverty.

But look at Esther McVey's history and record. I don't think you'd like her much, but she was no privileged Hooray Henry. Being born into money, or never having to suffer hardship doesn't make for a lack of empathy. Being born into poverty doesn't necessarily make people more sympathetic to the plight of others either. So I don't agree with your statement.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Jonathan Bartley, Siân Berry all have similar backgrounds with no hardship or poverty.
> 
> But look at Esther McVey's history and record. I don't think you'd like her much, but she was no privileged Hooray Henry. Being born into money, or never having to suffer hardship doesn't make for a lack of empathy. Being born into poverty doesn't necessarily make people more sympathetic to the plight of others either. So I don't agree with your statement.


I don't expect you to agree. After all I didn't say all Tory politicians and you're right about Corbyn and co. Indeed, a lot of what you say is correct.

Actually, the likes of McVey, Nornan Tebbitt and co. are a good deal worse, as they should know better.

They might have suceeded, but not everyone is successful in business you know.

Oh yes, JRM is very emphatic isn't he? He believes Food Banks are uplifting.


----------



## Elles

I don’t like the woman.  I’m just saying, don’t write someone off because of their (privileged) background.


----------



## Elles

Just watching sky news on the ‘net and they were discussing Macron and Merkel’s recent talk of a European army to protect Europe against The USA, Russia, China etc. They were bemoaning the fact that yet again European leaders play right into brexiteers hands. I’d missed it earlier this week. Theresa May must want to get this deal signed ASAP, before they do anything else. 

It was pointed out that although NATO responded by saying it could be a good idea to complement it’s efforts, Macron saying he wanted it to protect Europe against America kind of negates that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Just watching sky news on the 'net and they were discussing Macron and Merkel's recent talk of a European army to protect Europe against The USA, Russia, China etc. They were bemoaning the fact that yet again European leaders play right into brexiteers hands. I'd missed it earlier this week. Theresa May must want to get this deal signed ASAP, before they do anything else.
> 
> It was pointed out that although NATO responded by saying it could be a good idea to complement it's efforts, Macron saying he wanted it to protect Europe against America kind of negates that.


Trump called Russia the friend and EU the enemy and threaten to pull out of NATO?
Blame that orange turnip!!!


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Trump called Russia the friend and EU the enemy and threaten to pull out of NATO?
> Blame that orange turnip!!!


Macron said he'd like to be friends with Russia, because its a country he respects and it's part of Europe too lol. But you're right, he's using Donald Trump as an excuse. Trump will not be Potus forever and it's a bad time for European leaders to start talking about Eu armies. 

Still Macron has his own problems at the moment.


----------



## cheekyscrip

May promised Spain say in future trades with Gibraltar :Banghead:Vomit
If Spain had a say about the taxes, the airport etc... then in practice they got joint sovereignty?

No wonder they are celebrating, whatever May says.

In short - now Spanish people - not all of course, demand to close all Gibraltarian business in Spain, block our waters, air, cut off supplies until we put Spanish flag...
Or worse but will not paste due to offensive language.


----------



## Elles

I’m starting to really dislike the Spanish and their government. They know Gib don’t want Spanish rule and they have no claim on Gib.  The Eu and other European governments know it too. We’re ruled by a bunch of a******s.

Oh and we’re clearly being blackmailed to stay in, if they’re going to hold Gibraltar to ransom.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Theresa May's 'heart and soul' letter to the country ahead of Brexit summit*


















https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-...o-the-country-ahead-of-brexit-summit-11562913


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Whilst that is true the EU can still censure the UK and subject us to an excessive deficit procedure, which is what has happened several times since 2006 That is why IMO it's fair to say austerity, whilst some can be blamed on the government, the EU is also to blame!
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-...ng-prevention-correction/stability-and-growth
> 
> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...low-3percent-of-gdp-council-closes-procedure/


Nowhere (on the links that work) does it say our austerity was imposed on us by the EU (except on the John Redwood link who is hardly known for his honesty:Hilarious.) Please read this = http://www.europeaninstitute.org/in...form-a-country-by-country-table-updated-may-3

The UK is not in eurozone and has opt- out from penal provisions of excessive deficit rules. So UK austerity is home grown and not product of EU rule. The tories are solely responsible for the calculated cruelty of their extreme austerity policies.

Austerity in this country is a political choice by the tories to shrink the state and reshape our society for the benefit of the minority. The tories enacted the largest transfer of wealth from the public purse into private hands - that is where most of OUR money has gone. It was driven by 'social re-engineering' not economic necessity

They promised they would eliminate the deficit by 2015 yet we are still being punished & when we leave the EU we are going to get austerity on steroids.

Inequality in Britain is now amongst the most extreme. Where has all our money gone?










Ann Pettifor is highly regarded as is Mariana Mazzucato.

*Ann Pettifor*‏ @AnnPettifor
*Austerity nothing to do with the EU - imposed by this govt. Mariana Mazzucato*
Austerity - which has affected the living standards of many working people - was not imposed by the EU, but was a choice by the current government. When public finances are tight, the economic contribution made by migrants ought to be welcomed. But the climate of cuts allowed migrants to be blamed and Britain's contribution to the EU - at £8bn, just 1.2% of public expenditure and outweighed by our economic gains from membership - to take on disproportionate significan

http://gu.com/p/4myja/stw


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Jonathan Bartley, Siân Berry all have similar backgrounds with no hardship or poverty.
> 
> But look at Esther McVey's history and record. I don't think you'd like her much, but she was no privileged Hooray Henry. Being born into money, or never having to suffer hardship doesn't make for a lack of empathy. Being born into poverty doesn't necessarily make people more sympathetic to the plight of others either. So I don't agree with your statement.


Having spent plenty of time in the company of some very wealthy people in my time. I have found, that as a general rule, those born into considerable family wealth are mannered, socially aware and compassionate, it's those self made or second generation wealth that seem to be the main socially inept, rude and ignorant. Unfortunately, there's quite a few of them around at this present time


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Jonathan Bartley, Siân Berry all have similar backgrounds with no hardship or poverty.
> 
> But look at Esther McVey's history and record. I don't think you'd like her much, but she was no privileged Hooray Henry. Being born into money, or never having to suffer hardship doesn't make for a lack of empathy. Being born into poverty doesn't necessarily make people more sympathetic to the plight of others either. So I don't agree with your statement.


True, the tory party attracts sociopaths from all divides, but it is the party of the privileged - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-camerons-mp-candidates-list-212454


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Having spent plenty of time in the company of some very wealthy people in my time. I have found, that as a general rule, those born into considerable family wealth are mannered, socially aware and compassionate, it's those self made or second generation wealth that seem to be the main socially inept, rude and ignorant. Unfortunately, there's quite a few of them around at this present time


No tory mps though?. Have you trawled through their voting histories?:Jawdrop I've yet to find one who hasnt voted against the interests of even our most vulnerable citizens. They are utterly heartless


----------



## noushka05

I don't wish to derail the thread, but while we're on the subject, what kind of person votes for someone like this? 
*
UK Christopher Chope objects again: this time he scuttles female genital mutilation bill*

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/chope-71-is-said-to-object-to-private-members-bills/


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 21h21 hours ago
Brexiters are rolling back on Brexit.

Singham is the latest Brexiter to say Remain is better than this deal. Why?

They know MPs will block a crash-out.

May's deal is the only real Brexit available. So they are walking away & denying ownership.

LOL

*Pro-Brexit adviser admits UK would be better off staying in EU*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-admits-uk-would-be-better-off-staying-in-eu


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Was the Iraq war necessary?
> Did the UK have to get involved in Afghanistan?
> Unnecessary loss of British soldiers lives.
> Total waste of money.






Happy Paws said:


> What's this got to Brexit.


You tell me

(Looks like another attack of whataboutism HP  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You tell me
> 
> (Looks like another attack of *whataboutism* HP  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)


You bounce from topic to topic it is hard to keep up @noushka05. Yesterday for example you was on about the Maaistrict treaty then suddenly you bounced to austerity trying to link the 2 when the Maasitrict treaty is nothing to do with austerity.

You left yesterday questioning what started the austerity and in my reply mentioned the wars labour started atributed to austerity along with the global financial crash. No you accuse me of whataboutism when it was you bouncing topics. It gets very confusing because people try to answer your questions and you then bounce onto another topic and then accuse people of whataboutism.

It becomes exhausting then trying to answer your questions. Your posts are all over the place.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Gah! The truth about the Eu. The truth. Whoever said it. You said it yourself, you want to change it, others want to leave it for the same reason.
> 
> The remain camp isn't progressive. It wants to maintain the status quo. Brexit isn't great, but that's not because of Brexit, it's because of the remainers in charge of it. I voted remain, because I knew they'd mess it up.
> 
> The people who can actually save our planet aren't remotely interested in brexit.


The point is we are going to be far worse off outside the EU, millions of people are going to suffer (are suffering now!) - is their suffering worth it?. How can we change it if we're going to rule takers not rule makers Elles?

The 'progressive' remain camp was made up of progressive politicians who most definitely do not want to maintain the status quo - they *oppose* neoliberalism.

Brexit has given the tories powers not seen since the days of Henry the 8th. How is this sticking it to the status quo? Why do you think hostile forces were behind the leave campaign? 

You voted remain because you knew they'd mess it up? Yet you have spent the entire time arguing for leave even though you knew it would be a mess. 

Who are these people Elles_? The people who can actually save our planet aren't remotely interested in brexit _


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You bounce from topic to topic it is hard to keep up @noushka05. Yesterday for example you was on about the Maaistrict treaty then suddenly you bounced to austerity trying to link the 2 when the Maasitrict treaty is nothing to do with austerity.
> 
> You left yesterday questioning what started the austerity and in my reply mentioned the wars labour started atributed to austerity along with the global financial crash. No you accuse me of whataboutism when it was you bouncing topics. It gets very confusing because people try to answer your questions and you then bounce onto another topic and then accuse people of whataboutism.
> 
> It becomes exhausting then trying to answer your questions. Your posts are all over the place.


Magyarmum brought up the Maastricht treaty


----------



## noushka05

This is great by Alex Andreou on the liars who got us into this mess. No wonder so many leave voters now feel shafted by these charlatans. I am so sorry for them.

THREAD - On this historic occasion, let us recall some of what was promised specifically on this deal: 
"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."
David Davis 10 October 2016

"Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards."
John Redwood July 17 2016

"The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
Liam Fox 20 July 2017

"We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU." 
David Davis 15 November 2016 
(One of my favourites)

"I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019." 
David Davis 18 January 2017

"Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help." 
Patrick Minford 14 June 2016

"I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce." 
Michael Gove 17 November 2016

"We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value."
Boris Johnson 16 November 2016

"Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated."
David Davis 14 July 2016

"Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee." 
Gerard Batten 17 February 2017

"Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel's door demanding access to the British market." 
David Davis 4 February 2016

"The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high." 
Boris Johnson 6 March 2016

"I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment." 
Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016

"All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?" 
Tim Martin 2 January 2017

"It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests." 
Paul Nutall 17 January 2017

"Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy." 
David Davis 5 September 2017

And this by David Davis last week deserves pride of place on the thread: 
"If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it."

Leave with no deal (so no transition period) and negotiate it during the transition period.










(Replying to @sturdyAlex @StevePeers
Lets not forget... "If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it." 
David Davis, the day before yesterday)

*Alex Andreou*‏Verified account @sturdyAlex Nov 22
HAAAAHAHAHAHA PLEASE TELL ME HE DID NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This is great by Alex Andreou on the liars who got us into this mess. No wonder so many leave voters now feel shafted by these charlatans. I am so sorry for them.
> 
> THREAD - On this historic occasion, let us recall some of what was promised specifically on this deal:
> "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."
> David Davis 10 October 2016
> 
> "Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards."
> John Redwood July 17 2016
> 
> "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
> Liam Fox 20 July 2017
> 
> "We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU."
> David Davis 15 November 2016
> (One of my favourites)
> 
> "I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019."
> David Davis 18 January 2017
> 
> "Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help."
> Patrick Minford 14 June 2016
> 
> "I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce."
> Michael Gove 17 November 2016
> 
> "We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value."
> Boris Johnson 16 November 2016
> 
> "Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated."
> David Davis 14 July 2016
> 
> "Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee."
> Gerard Batten 17 February 2017
> 
> "Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel's door demanding access to the British market."
> David Davis 4 February 2016
> 
> "The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high."
> Boris Johnson 6 March 2016
> 
> "I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment."
> Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016
> 
> "All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?"
> Tim Martin 2 January 2017
> 
> "It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests."
> Paul Nutall 17 January 2017
> 
> "Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy."
> David Davis 5 September 2017
> 
> And this by David Davis last week deserves pride of place on the thread:
> "If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it."
> 
> Leave with no deal (so no transition period) and negotiate it during the transition period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Replying to @sturdyAlex @StevePeers
> Lets not forget... "If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it."
> David Davis, the day before yesterday)
> 
> *Alex Andreou*‏Verified account @sturdyAlex Nov 22
> HAAAAHAHAHAHA PLEASE TELL ME HE DID NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT


Well @noushka05 if you want to listen or read what they say or are saying your choice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> THREAD - On this historic occasion, let us recall some of what was promised specifically on this deal:
> "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."
> David Davis 10 October 2016
> 
> "Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards."
> John Redwood July 17 2016
> 
> "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history."
> Liam Fox 20 July 2017
> 
> "We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU."
> David Davis 15 November 2016
> (One of my favourites)
> 
> "I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019."
> David Davis 18 January 2017
> 
> "Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help."
> Patrick Minford 14 June 2016
> 
> "I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce."
> Michael Gove 17 November 2016
> 
> "We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value."
> Boris Johnson 16 November 2016
> 
> "Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated."
> David Davis 14 July 2016
> 
> "Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee."
> Gerard Batten 17 February 2017
> 
> "Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel's door demanding access to the British market."
> David Davis 4 February 2016
> 
> "The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high."
> Boris Johnson 6 March 2016
> 
> "I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment."
> Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016
> 
> "All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?"
> Tim Martin 2 January 2017
> 
> "It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests."
> Paul Nutall 17 January 2017
> 
> "Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy."
> David Davis 5 September 2017
> 
> And this by David Davis last week deserves pride of place on the thread:
> "If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it."


You still think that people walk around zombified believing everything these people say and cannot make their own minds up?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well @noushka05 if you want to listen or read what they say or are saying your choice.


I don't need anyone to tell me this


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Have you ever thought this is exactly why none of the above are Prime Minister.


What do you mean? non of them have ever stood for leadership bar Gove (i think)


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You still think that people walk around zombified believing everything these people say and cannot make their own minds up?


You keep quoting the same post with different responses


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You keep quoting the same post with different responses


There's so many ways to answer it :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account >>>>>>>
_

Years of Tory scapegoating of immigrants for the misery of austerity, the Leave lies on posters, in interviews and Facebook posts ("the Turks are coming!"), an opposition too scared to make the case for immigration, have led us to this national catastrof****_. #PrayforBritain

_
The truth is Theresa May is neither a Remainer or a Leaver. The woman behind the Go Home vans and the hostile environment, the lover of immigration targets is a xenophobe. Ending freedom of movement is all she sees in Brexit, that's all she wants from Brexit, the rest can go hang_

Sacrificed for Brexit, latest update:
Frictionless trade
Manufacturing Services
Scientific and medical research 
The young
A functioning NHS and social care
Visa-free travel
Northern Ireland Car industry
Countless jobs
International standing

And...

Gibraltar


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> non of them have ever stood for leadership bar Gove (i think)


I am so disappointed @noushka05. You forgot the blond guy.









No not him.









Boris. He stood in the last leadership contest (2016) as well.

:Hilarious

So did Liam Fox.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I am so disappointed @noushka05. You forgot the blond guy.
> 
> View attachment 377533
> 
> No not him.
> 
> View attachment 377534
> 
> Boris. He stood in the last leadership contest (2016) as well.
> 
> :Hilarious
> 
> So did Liam Fox.


This is a better photo:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Sound bites and headlines again. 

People live in the real world. They don’t all vote how they do because of a newspaper headline, they vote how they do because of what’s happening to them out in the real world. A lot of people I know voted leave. Decent, ordinary people who wanted to bring about change. The slurs and the smug attacks on the characters of leave voters, are slurs and smug attacks on my friends. That’s why I defend leave. There are some damned good reasons for wanting to get out of the Eu and see it gone. It’s part of the system that is failing them. How is David Schneider an expert?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Sound bites and headlines again.


It actually stuns me how people can find the time to find these things from the internet that backs up all their perceived notions and theories.
Life through a screen.........so sad.......would drive me insane.....well more than I am now


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Sound bites and headlines again.
> 
> People live in the real world. They don't all vote how they do because of a newspaper headline, they vote how they do because of what's happening to them out in the real world. A lot of people I know voted leave. Decent, ordinary people who wanted to bring about change. The slurs and the smug attacks on the characters of leave voters, are slurs and smug attacks on my friends. That's why I defend leave. There are some damned good reasons for wanting to get out of the Eu and see it gone. It's part of the system that is failing them. How is David Schneider an expert?


David is on the side of the vulnerable, of minorities- those who have been hit the hardest by tory policies and who will be most affected by brexit.

........................


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Who are these people Elles_? The people who can actually save our planet aren't remotely interested in brexit _


The people who can actually save our planet are the people who are destroying it. If we only have 12 years, we aren't going to stop the Russians, Americans, Chinese etc from fracking, polluting, eating cows and all the other destructive actions they're taking in time, brexit or no Brexit. Someone cutting down the forests to feed cattle, aren't interested in brexit, other than maybe giving it a slight look, in case it means they can sell more of their dead animals here. The Russians are developing new ways of getting even more out of the ground from fracking.

Brexit will have so little impact on the global environment, it's hardly worth thinking about imo. The American news hardly ever bring it up, I expect it's the same in Russia and Asia. It's heavily featured in the news at the moment, because TM is days from signing a deal.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> David is on the side of the vulnerable, of minorities- those who have been hit the hardest by tory policies and who will be most affected by brexit.
> 
> ........................


He's a privileged comedian/actor who makes controversial statements to keep his profile up and be funny. He's not an expert talking facts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Agreed.









Mr Barnier this will upset some remainers.


----------



## KittenKong

The only leave voters I'll defend are those who realise they were conned. There's no shame in admitting you were.

After all, how many of us were conned by PPI? I certainly was! Having had my hours reduced I struggled to keep up some repayments. I mentioned the PPI insurance I'd taken out. Did that apply, like hell it did!

A few years later the truth came out and banks were forced to give refunds.

Not many would admit to being conned through pride, embarrassment and shame. The leave campaign liars knew that. They'll have their day sooner or later, but under a right wing power grab it could be another matter.

Getting back to the self employed/zero hours debate perhaps people believe major firms like a major supermarket for example should be able to sack their entire work force then re-employ them on zero hour contracts, no union or paid holiday entitlements with a guaranteed Sunday off as the, "Make Sunday special again", another move to the past, get their wish.

Gibraltar- very disturbing. NI peace process under threat.

Is Brexit really worth all this?

Think I've said enough....


----------



## stockwellcat.

I agree with the Luxembourg PM.

All this drama because the EU will miss the money the UK pays the EU. Are the EU leaders wanting an Oscar or Bafta?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> He's a privileged comedian/actor who makes controversial statements to keep his profile up and be funny. He's not an expert talking facts.


A privileged comedian/actor who clearly cares passionately about social justice. I've never said he was an expert, though his satire is based on real evidence.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-a8649001.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Elles

Maybe some who previously supported the Eu were conned I don’t know. People I know who voted leave thought many of the headlines and propaganda were ridiculous. They didn’t vote leave because of them, they voted leave despite them. None of us can stand Boris for example and we all knew what the sign on the bus was worth.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> A privileged comedian/actor who clearly cares passionately about social justice. I've never said he was an expert, though his satire is based on real evidence.


You said you post expert opinion rather than your own. He's not expert opinion and we can't discuss anything with him, he's not here.


----------



## noushka05

This is what brexit is doing to people who chose to live here. Shameful.










*
"If I can start over again somewhere else, I shall treat this new relationship as a business relationship for mutual advantage from the start.
I shall not make the mistake of making myself vulnerable by loving that country"*
*

A Brexit grief observed

https://medium.com/@helenldecruz/a-brexit-grief-observed-1b9851bef867








*


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377541
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-a8649001.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true


It won't be voided at all.

You're holding onto strings that are quickly snapping in the hope Brexit will be stopped.

The EU are endorsing the withdrawal agreement today and are putting on a right performance.

Just a reminder. Judges cannot get involved with political decisions. To trigger article 50 was a political decision and so was to agree to press ahead with Brexit. Every MP across the UK got to vote on these 2 decisions.


----------



## Elles

@KittenKong No we shouldn't go back to times when people could be 'self employed' when they aren't. It was fine when there were more jobs than potential employees, the worker held more cards then, but today employees need protecting from greedy employers and it doesn't go far enough imo. I won't use Amazon because of its employment practices.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You said you post expert opinion rather than your own. He's not expert opinion and we can't discuss anything with him, he's not here.


No I didn't say that lol I can post what I like, and his satire is clearly based on reality.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> No I didn't say that lol I can post what I like, and his satire is clearly based on reality.


You did. You accused Stockwellcat of being arrogant and said you rely on expert opinion not your own.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You did. You accused Stockwellcat of being arrogant and said you rely on expert opinion not your own.


I did not accuse SWC of being arrogant:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

I agree that it’s wrong to make ordinary people feel unwelcome and to use the language Theresa May did in her speech. The majority of Brits don’t feel that way. As for Gibraltar, they’re all using it as a pawn and I can barely speak about it, I’m so disgusted with the lot of them.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I agree that it's wrong to make ordinary people feel unwelcome and to use the language Theresa May did in her speech. The majority of Brits don't feel that way. As for Gibraltar, they're all using it as a pawn and I can barely speak about it, I'm so disgusted with the lot of them.


May believes this is 'the will of the people'. Cheeky tried her best to warn us before the referendum of the risk brexit would be for her Gibraltar


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I agree that it's wrong to make ordinary people feel unwelcome and to use the language Theresa May did in her speech. The majority of Brits don't feel that way. As for Gibraltar, they're all using it as a pawn and I can barely speak about it, I'm so disgusted with the lot of them.


Sadly, Theresa May represents the UK people whether or not they agree with her.

It hardly inspires confidence to the outside world where they'll be regarded as heartless bigots through the words that come out of that vile and disgusting woman's mouth.

In the same sense Hitler represented German people, they were regarded as all the same to the outside world. Likewise with the USSR and its people. Trump in the US too of course.

We know none of that's true, but it's how others see us which I find very sad.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I did not accuse SWC of being arrogant:Hilarious


I don't know if @noushka05 did or didn't but I am not bothered to be honest @Elles . Let's not any of us fall out over what was said or not said.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Rolling live updates from Brussels on the EU Endorsement of the Withdrawal Agreement for those interested:

https://news.sky.com/story/live-eu-leaders-set-to-agree-mays-brexit-plan-11562989


----------



## KittenKong

Begging for now, obey or else soon...






















https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-me-brexit-open-letter?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Not a ******* chance.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> I did not accuse SWC of being arrogant:Hilarious


You said to SWC you're not arrogant enough to make your own mind up, you prefer to listen to experts you trust. As SWC had just made their own mind up, the implication was clear to me. However if that's not what you meant, I grudgingly take it back.

We're not falling out over it SWC. 

You think I didn't know about Gibraltar before the referendum.  It's not just Cheeky's Gibraltar. As my son married a Gibraltarian, they both live and work in Gibraltar, they take care of his Gibraltarian mother in law and their first child will be born there within the next couple of weeks, I think I've taken a little interest in what's going on there. Some of their family live in Spain. Any mess in Gibraltar and especially if we concede control to Spain, could leave them totally stranded. We knew brexit would risk Gibraltar, but they refuse to panic about it. I think the Eu and Spain stink over it, just as much as our lot do.

Gibraltar was still no reason to vote remain, if you were determined anti Eu who want to leave for the good of the cause. It shows that the countries in Europe have a very fragile truce and none of it is real. Better it comes out and we can make changes perhaps.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Theresa May's 'heart and soul' letter to the country ahead of Brexit summit*


I'm writing my reply now and will send it to my MP later on asking him to forward it to May. It politely begs to differ with practically everything she says.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm writing my reply now and will send it to my MP later on asking him to forward it to May. It politely begs to differ with practically everything she says.


My MP is Ben Bradshaw. No point writing to him either way. He's still hoping to stop Brexit via the courts. I think it's being rushed through now.


----------



## KittenKong

It's a very sad day for everyone.
To address a balance, here's a post from the pro Brexit Leave.Eu FB page.

For obviously different reasons I can't say I disagree with this.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Gibraltar was still no reason to vote remain, if you were determined anti Eu who want to leave for the good of the cause. It shows that the countries in Europe have a very fragile truce and none of it is real. Better it comes out and we can make changes perhaps.


Using the same argument you can say the same about over 70 years of peace between the EU member states!

Is Brexit worth ending the "fragile" NI peace process and increasing the risk of a war with Spain over Gibraltar for?

Not forgetting the breakup of the UK itself?


----------



## Elles

Nigel Farage will vote against the deal and wants a second referendum or no deal. Nigel Farage would rather have a second referendum than accept the deal..


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Using the same argument you can say the same about over 70 years of peace between the EU member states!
> 
> Is Brexit worth ending the "fragile" NI peace process and increasing the risk of a war with Spain over Gibraltar for?
> 
> Not forgetting the breakup of the UK itself?


Nope. I can understand people thinking it is though and being even more determined to leave, when they see the Eu dividing up the spoils.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Nigel Farage will vote against the deal and wants a second referendum or no deal. Nigel Farage would rather have a second referendum than accept the deal..


??? He's not an MP though is he, or are MEP's working their notice allowed a vote on this?

Of course, Farage said a 52-48% victory for remain would be unfinished business! He would've had his second referendum by now had that been the case.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> ??? He's not an MP though is he, or are MEP's working their notice allowed a vote on this?


Looks like it. He says he's going to vote against it, unless I misread the tweet, which is possible, I'm reading this and making breakfast lol.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

No I didn’t misread it.

“Former UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who remains a member of the European Parliament, says he'll be voting against the deal when it's put to MEPs.

Speaking to the BBC News Channel, he disagreed however that the deal was so bad that the UK would be better off remaining in the EU, as some have suggested.

"It's an awful deal, I want the deal rejected," he says.

Both a second referendum or the UK leaving without a deal altogether would be better alternatives, he added.”


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Nigel Farage will vote against the deal and wants a second referendum or no deal. Nigel Farage would rather have a second referendum than accept the deal..


Farage confuses me as he campaigned hard for the referendum on the 23rd June 2016 to bring this referendum into existance. Got a leave vote. Now as a leaver voter myself and I do not hide this fact I feel that a second referendum will have severe consequences, cause more divisions for example, more damage to the economy and alot more uncertainity than there is at the minute. Such a prospect of a second referendum would leave the UK in a political limbo.

If it didn't go one way or the other people will be wanting another referendum over and over.

I am not scaremongering at all but at this late stage I feel a second referendum is a bad idea.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> ??? He's not an MP though is he, or are MEP's working their notice allowed a vote on this?
> 
> Of course, Farage said a 52-48% victory for remain would be unfinished business! He would've had his second referendum by now had that been the case.


He's planning to oust the current UKIP leader from what I read and return to politics if he hasn't already returned to politics.

Edited: Found these articles:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-eu-theresa-may-plans-ukip-a8497126.html?amp

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/7767432/nigel-farage-politics-return-brexit-betrayal/amp/


----------



## KittenKong

The BBC obviously don't want to upset May like they did with Thatcher when a viewer challenged her on Nationwide. Well worth a look if you haven't seen it.






Seeing May chickened out of a GMB and This Morning appearance, she is comforted by the BBC with carefully filtered callers....


----------



## Arnie83

Sorry, I've got to come back on this again ...



stockwellcat. said:


> Farage confuses me as he campaigned hard for the referendum on the 23rd June 2016 to bring this referendum into existance. Got a leave vote. Now as a leaver voter myself and I do not hide this fact I feel that a second referendum will have severe consequences, cause more divisions for example, *social unrest*, more damage to the economy and alot more uncertainity than there is at the minute. Such a prospect of a second referendum would leave the UK in a political limbo.


Why would it cause social unrest? Let us assume that the People decided to Remain ( a big assumption, because I don't think they would, but let's go there); towards whom would this social unrest be aimed? Would it be the government who, in the referendum, would be supporting May's Brexit deal, or the People who changed their [collective] mind?

And if (big if, remember) the vote delivered a decisive verdict for Remain, would not all uncertainty end? We would carry on as now, at least in terms of trade. (Hopefully the impetus for change within the EU would continue.)


----------



## Happy Paws2

It come to something when the PM is begging the pubic for support, as she can't trust her own party.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The BBC obviously don't want to upset May like they did with Thatcher when a viewer challenged her on Nationwide. Well worth a look if you haven't seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing May chickened out of a GMB and This Morning appearance, she is comforted by the BBC with carefully filtered callers....
> View attachment 377548
> View attachment 377549


I must admit I thought the questions were anaemic at best. They certainly didn't choose any of the ones that I submitted!


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU27 have endorsed with withdrawal agreement. TM now has huge challenge to get the deal through UK Parliament.

Meanwhile one protester sets fire to a copy of the withdrawal agreement and one takes a hammer to a cardboard version.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066645232857563138


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Farage confuses me as he campaigned hard for the referendum on the 23rd June 2016 to bring this referendum into existance. Got a leave vote. Now as a leaver voter myself and I do not hide this fact I feel that a second referendum will have severe consequences, cause more divisions for example, social unrest, more damage to the economy and alot more uncertainity than there is at the minute. Such a prospect of a second referendum would leave the UK in a political limbo.
> 
> If it didn't go one way or the other people will be wanting another referendum over and over.
> 
> I am not scaremongering at all but at this late stage I feel a second referendum is a bad idea.


Ahem, some Brexiters here argued the threat of the ending of the NI GF agreement with the resultant re-emergence of the troubles and a risk of war over Gibraltar shouldn't prevent people from backing leaving the EU, and that people shouldn't give in to such threats!

What you are saying about the possibility of unrest if Brexit doesn't go ahead is similar to that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My MP is Ben Bradshaw. No point writing to him either way. He's still hoping to stop Brexit via the courts. I think it's being rushed through now.


Just spoken to to someone who works for our government.
The threat to our economy so very real that even the pensions are under a threat, without corporate tax we will be beggars and Spain knows it, May knows it and is happy to let it happen.

Basically Gibraltar thrown under the Brexit bus.

Little place like ours can be squeezed and squashed in no time at all...

Why do you think our government tries to build all new schools right now?
Once financial sector and gambling are gone domino effect will roll into services and so on...
At least your family are young and could go back to UK if they have to, but what will happen to those who are too old to move and start anew elsewhere?

My children still need many years of financial support so of course I worry.

We have vulnerable adults with young children under our wing and elderly relatives too...

We voted Remain because we knew we we will be sold out for a Brexit deal and we knew this what Spain would want, only Britain in EU had enough influence to shut them up.

Bris could show Spain that they think of it and spend holidays elsewhere, problem is - most don't care enough.
This is all over Spanish media - Britain does not really give a hoot about Gibraltar and they will happily give it up for a better deal with EU.
We don't trust May one bit, our Chief Minister just tries to calm people down, but there is a great danger to our economy and our sovereignty.

I also have a stepgranchild to be born in few weeks...

Talks on Gibraltar will be bilateral, with exclusion of our government, we will have no representation and no say.

@Elles you can't deny the end of our tax regime spells the end of our prosperity and mass job loss empty budget, not even for pensions.

I saw this year tax published by government and we lost very badly on corporate tax already as companies aware of forthcoming changes are moving out already or at least partially.
Those who need access to EU are moving out obviously.
Small increase in income from tourism does not balance it at all.


----------



## Elles

My family aren’t young and how would Gibraltarians who have lived and worked in Spain and Gibraltar all their lives “go back to the U.K.”  My son’s mother in law is half Spanish and lives with them, where would you like her to go, if my son gets sent back to the U.K. by the Spanish and they lose their jobs and home? 

What a thing to say. If you’re going to be like that, you’re European, you could go anywhere in Europe.


----------



## noushka05

May is a shameless con artist Surely the majority of citizens aren't going be fooled by the garbage in her letter? Going by by the reaction on twitter I suspect not.

*Steve Bullock*‏ @GuitarMoog 14h14 hours ago
Steve Bullock Retweeted Theresa May

Dear @*theresa_may*, Thank you for your *letter*. From the very first sentence to the very last, it is a tissue of revisionism, wilful misdirection, false equivalences, and downright lies. You have a lot of bloody gall writing this to me. #SacktheBrexitDeal


*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 3h3 hours ago
Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted UK Prime Minister

I don't say this lightly, but almost nothing in this desperate letter is true. This is a bad deal, driven by the PM's self defeating red lines and continual pandering to the right of her own party. Parliament should reject it and back a better alternative - SM/CU or #PeoplesVote

Had to laugh at this >
*Mr Roger Quimbly*‏ @RogerQuimbly 4h4 hours ago
If you hold that letter from Theresa May up to the light..


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong I have removed the word in question after reading what you both said and hope that is satisfactory?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Posted on Downing Streets twit ter feed.










Just noticed it isn't readable as the writing is so small and goes distorted when you try and enlarge it, so here is the link which you can make bigger to read: https://mobile.twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1066671342051831810?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1066671342051831810&ref_url=https://news.sky.com/story/live-eu-leaders-set-to-agree-mays-brexit-plan-11562989


----------



## noushka05

(Close your eyes Elles)


*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 10m10 minutes ago
*Theresa May's letter to the nation*


----------



## noushka05

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston.

*Sarah Wollaston MP*‏Verified account @sarahwollaston 5h5 hours ago
Sarah Wollaston MP Retweeted UK Prime Minister

Deeply shocking that the PM drags out the old NHS funding deception in her letter. There is NO financial bonanza linked to Brexit only a massive penalty for the NHS, research, public health & social care


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> May is a shameless con artist Surely the majority of citizens aren't going be fooled by the garbage in her letter? Going by by the reaction on twitter I suspect not.
> 
> *Steve Bullock*‏ @GuitarMoog 14h14 hours ago
> Steve Bullock Retweeted Theresa May
> 
> Dear @*theresa_may*, Thank you for your *letter*. From the very first sentence to the very last, it is a tissue of revisionism, wilful misdirection, false equivalences, and downright lies. You have a lot of bloody gall writing this to me. #SacktheBrexitDeal
> 
> 
> *Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 3h3 hours ago
> Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted UK Prime Minister
> 
> I don't say this lightly, but almost nothing in this desperate letter is true. This is a bad deal, driven by the PM's self defeating red lines and continual pandering to the right of her own party. Parliament should reject it and back a better alternative - SM/CU or #PeoplesVote
> 
> Had to laugh at this >
> *Mr Roger Quimbly*‏ @RogerQuimbly 4h4 hours ago
> If you hold that letter from Theresa May up to the light..


80 Conservative MP's have declared they will vote against the withdrawal agreement.
35 SNP MP's have said they will vote against the withdrawal agreement.
1 Green Party leader has said she will vote against the withdrawal agreement.
10 DUP MP's will vote against the withdrawal agreement.
257 MP's in Labour Party to vote against the withdrawal agreement. Not sure they all will though so this amount is questionable.

315 MP's in the Conservative Party minus the 80 I spoke about above makes 235 MP's and Ministers who will possibly back the deal after the whip has had a go at them.

373 MP's perhaps voting against the withdrawal agreement. Now this is not an exact figure as we know it was just to show the problem Theresa May has. Theresa May needs a miricle to get this withdrawal agreement through Parliament.

I have noticed I missed of the Welsh Parties etc.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My family aren't young and how would Gibraltarians who have lived and worked in Spain and Gibraltar all their lives "go back to the U.K."  My son's mother in law is half Spanish and lives with them, where would you like her to go, if my son gets sent back to the U.K. by the Spanish and they lose their jobs and home?
> 
> What a thing to say. If you're going to be like that, you're European, you could go anywhere in Europe.


As I pointed we cannot either.

But you aware what is coming if Spain has a say about our taxes ( funny they are not bothered with Canaries, or Andorra, or Monaco).

No Deal and going on WTO rules means Argentina and Spain will veto immediately.
May Deal gave way to Spain.

She already had a deal ready to sign, then Spain pops up, couldn't she tell them NO?
Tell the EU no changes . Take it or leave it.

She gave in and caved in so promptly.

Leave deal or no deal is a serious threat to Gibraltar.
My family and yours.

My eldest is already thinking if not to give up his uni offer and look for a job - I am telling him not to rush and not to worry.

But I do.
So much for strong and stable.

She actually gave Spain a say over Gibraltar.

If that is not joint sovereignty when how do you want to call it?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377570


The irony is that if Britain after all wants to Remain Spain will veto it...I am quite sure of that.... Franco's dream will come true.

If Parliament rejects May Deal then surely they will reject No Deal? I mean Scots, Welsh, Labour, Green?

Then the only option is the new referendum?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> The irony is that if Britain after all wants to Remain Spain will veto it...I am quite sure of that.... Franco's dream will come true.
> 
> If Parliament rejects May Deal then surely they will reject No Deal? I mean Scots, Welsh, Labour, Green?
> 
> Then the only option is the new referendum?


The problem some remainers have is the two main parties leaders (Corbyn and May) in Parliament have said no to a new referendum. So some remainers are holding onto a wing and a prayer (hoping that you will succeed, although you are not prepared enough for it) as there is not enough time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Then the only option is the new referendum?


Remainer voters would be voting to stay whilst Leave voters would be voting for a hard brexit and I wonder what the result would be if there was to be another referendum? We will perhaps never know.


----------



## noushka05

*Harry Cole*‏Verified account @MrHarryCole 16h16 hours ago
MAYDAY: Secret Whitehall contingency plans reveal Britain would start to run out of clean drinking water within days of a No Deal Brexit, as "just in time" purifying chemicals cannot be stockpiled: https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-6425479/Michael-Gove-backed-hearing-UK-run-drinking-water-DAYS-No-Deal.html …

,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Posted on Downing Streets twit ter feed.
> 
> View attachment 377563
> 
> 
> Just noticed it isn't readable as the writing is so small and goes distorted when you try and enlarge it, so here is the link which you can make bigger to read: https://mobile.twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1066671342051831810?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1066671342051831810&ref_url=https://news.sky.com/story/live-eu-leaders-set-to-agree-mays-brexit-plan-11562989


Hmm.

Thanks for posting, but let's start with #1 on the list ...

*40 Reasons to back THE BREXIT DEAL

1. Free movement will come to an end, once and for all, with the introduction of a new skills-based immigration system*

That isn't actually in the deal that's been agreed in Brussels, which is only the Withdrawal Agreement. Even if that Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons, Free movement doesn't change at all for the whole of the Transition Period, which is already mooted to be 4 years rather than 2. And during that Transition Period we will be negotiating the new relationship, part of which is the immigration system, with the stated intention of ending free movement. But then we've had a lot of stated intentions. So that one's rubbish for a start.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Thanks for posting, but let's start with #1 on the list ...
> 
> *40 Reasons to back THE BREXIT DEAL
> 
> 1. Free movement will come to an end, once and for all, with the introduction of a new skills-based immigration system*
> 
> That isn't actually in the deal that's been agreed in Brussels, which is only the Withdrawal Agreement. Even if that Withdrawal Agreement passes the Commons, Free movement doesn't change at all for the whole of the Transition Period, which is already mooted to be 4 years rather than 2. And during that Transition Period we will be negotiating the new relationship, part of which is the immigration system, with the stated intention of ending free movement. But then we've had a lot of stated intentions. So that one's rubbish for a start.


Oh I know.


----------



## Arnie83

Same for no.s 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 - they're all post transition and nothing to do with approving the Withdrawal plan.

9 is about being "freed from the EU's political commitment to ever closer union", but then we were out of that anyway.

I think I'll stop reading them now.


----------



## noushka05

I didn't see/hear said interview so couldn't say how accurate this is - but it really wouldn't surprise me if it is lol. I dont think I've seen her answer a direct question. She is absolutely hopeless.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Can I wake up and find out it is all a bad, bad dream?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I didn't see/hear said interview so couldn't say how accurate this is - but it really wouldn't surprise me if it is lol. I dont think I've seen her answer a direct question. She is absolutely hopeless.


It's pretty accurate. She went into Maybot protocol #1 and simply gave the same answer to all questions about resignation, Plan B, second referendum, general election, renegotiation, tweaking the deal ... This is the best deal ... click ... this is the best deal ... click ... this is the best


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377570


For the EU, it is the only Plan B. What else are they going to do? Fortunately, it's not the only option for the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> May is a shameless con artist Surely the majority of citizens aren't going be fooled by the garbage in her letter? Going by by the reaction on twitter I suspect not.


This is my reply, sent via my MP ...



Spoiler



Dear Arnie's MP

Theresa May wrote a letter to the public regarding her negotiated Withdrawal Agreement. I have quoted below, and responded to, a few of the points and would be grateful if you could make my views known to the Prime Minister, to whom the following is directly addressed.

"It will be a deal that is in our national interest - one that works for our whole country and all of our people, whether you voted 'Leave' or 'Remain'. "​
I'm afraid your definition of the national interest differs from mine. I see a reduction in our economic growth potential by making trade with the rest of our current single EU marketplace more expensive, lowering business profits and tax revenue. Government figures, supported by those from every reputable organisation, predict lower GDP growth as a result of Brexit, as indeed you yourself did prior to the referendum. I'm afraid this deal therefore does not 'work' for me, and I'm sure many others. There are many deals that would be even less in the national interest - particularly 'No Deal' - but that doesn't mean that this one qualifies for that description.

"We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.

"Instead, we will be able to spend British taxpayers' money on our own priorities, like the extra £394 million per week that we are investing in our long-term plan for the NHS. "​
Repeating the false implication that Brexit facilitates an increase in NHS spending does not make it any less false. The sums available for future spending will be lower as a result of Brexit and its associated costs. We would be able to spend more on the NHS were we to remain members of the EU than when we leave it. Many will be believe your claim, but it is still disingenuous. It deliberately seeks to mislead the electorate, and further reduces respect for politics and politicians in this country.

"The deal also protects the things we value."​
One of the things I value most is my European citizenship. It is a significant part of my identity. Emphasizing our geographical proximity to the rest of the continent, and all the talk of 'friends' and 'allies' does not change the fact that Brexit seeks to remove that part of my identity by edict. In effect it says "You cannot be a European citizen any more; only the British part of you is valid." Were the promise of individual associate EU citizenship to have been part of the deal I would reconsider much of what I say in this response, but I am not holding my breath.

"A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.

"As Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I have from day one been determined to deliver a Brexit deal that works for every part of our country - for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, for our Overseas Territories like Gibraltar, and also for the Crown Dependencies.

"This deal will do that."​
This deal is the Withdrawal Agreement, and will facilitate trade only for the Transition Period. What will happen after 2020, or 2022, or whenever, is still entirely unknown and subject to further, and much more detailed negotiation.

It is, though, worth pointing out that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar voted to Remain in the EU, so how you can claim that this deal works for them is hard to fathom.

"Crucially, it will protect the integrity of our United Kingdom and ensure that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland - so people can live their lives as they do now."​
I live my life now as a European citizen. The one thing that there can be no doubt about whatsoever is that I can no long live as I do now, because the whole point of Brexit is to stop me doing that by seeking forcibly to restrict my affiliation. The implied logic that this will give me a nice warm feeling of belonging to what you refer to as 'our precious Union' is, let us say, imperfect.

"It is a deal for a brighter future, which enables us to seize the opportunities that lie ahead

"Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.​
Your Government's calculations conclude that trade deals with the rest of the world might contribute an increase in GDP in the range of 0.2% to 0.7%; far short of what we lose through any flavour of Brexit. And that is assuming we can and do sign such deals, both of which provisos, as I am sure you are aware, are very uncertain. Once again, though, this 'deal' has little bearing on the yet-to-be-negotiated future trade relationship, so it is quite wrong to claim that it enables us to do anything post-transition.

However, the closer we stay to the EU in terms of a trading relationship the more restricted will be the possibilities for new trade deals outside of the Union. Given the small contribution that those deals might make, this is no great cause for concern, but to claim that these potential trade deals would somehow see the UK better off is, according to your own figures - and indeed everyone's except Patrick Minford's - quite false.

"On 29 March next year, the United Kingdom will leave the European Union.

"We will then begin a new chapter in our national life. I want that to be a moment of renewal and reconciliation for our whole country.

"It must mark the point when we put aside the labels of 'Leave' and 'Remain' for good and we come together again as one people.​
The idea that 29 March next year will mark a reconciliation of 'Leave' and 'Remain' at all, let alone 'for good', is fanciful. It will not only be a very sad day for those such as myself, who will see the door to our European citizenship slammed in our faces by the forces of insular tribalism. It will also be a sad day for the country, which will have shown itself to be parochial, obsessed with mediaeval notions of territorial dominion, glorying in a perceived siege mentality, driven by primitive attitudes towards 'the other', and attracted more by a sepia-tinged narrow nostalgia than by an open and progressive global future.

In conclusion, the Tory party might eventually come together - which aim has apparently been the main driver in this whole fiasco - but the country will be split for half a century.

Luv Arnie.

p.s. Are we still on for Christmas drinkies @ Chequers?











If it's too long to read, suffice to say that on a number of topics we don't really see eye to eye.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's pretty accurate. She went into Maybot protocol #1 and simply gave the same answer to all questions about resignation, Plan B, second referendum, general election, renegotiation, tweaking the deal ... This is the best deal ... click ... this is the best deal ... click ... this is the best


Arnie for some odd reason when you immitated May as Maybot I thought of this (One of my favourite films):


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Arnie for some odd reason when you immitated May as Maybot I thought of this (One of my favourite films):


:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

@cheekyscrip have you actually read any of my posts? Of course my son, his wife and their family are concerned. They're trying not to panic about it. I'm furious with May, Spain and the Eu as I already said. Hopefully when my first grandchild is born, I can fly direct to Gibraltar to see her. I don't really want to discuss it with you any further. Your ridiculous comment that people born and bred in Gibraltar for generations can go back to Britain, because my son was born here or something, makes me too cross. :Rage


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> *Harry Cole*‏Verified account @MrHarryCole 16h16 hours ago
> MAYDAY: Secret Whitehall contingency plans reveal Britain would start to run out of clean drinking water within days of a No Deal Brexit, as "just in time" purifying chemicals cannot be stockpiled: https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-6425479/Michael-Gove-backed-hearing-UK-run-drinking-water-DAYS-No-Deal.html …
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,


I'm only amazed this isn't common knowledge by now...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Junker says "this is the deal, the only deal on the table. If the House (House of Commons he means) says no, it will be no deal."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-46336137/brexit-i-m-never-changing-my-mind-says-juncker


----------



## Elles

I see Michael Gove has “taken the no deal pill and seen how bad things would get”

I would be really interested to see what would happen with Gove as PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I see Michael Gove has "taken the no deal pill and seen how bad things would get"
> 
> I would be really interested to see what would happen with Gove as PM.


I heard Thursday/Friday last week that some Ministers and MP's were considering the No Deal option.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> @cheekyscrip have you actually read any of my posts? Of course my son, his wife and their family are concerned. They're trying not to panic about it. I'm furious with May, Spain and the Eu as I already said. Hopefully when my first grandchild is born, I can fly direct to Gibraltar to see her. I don't really want to discuss it with you any further. Your ridiculous comment that people born and bred in Gibraltar for generations can go back to Britain, because my son was born here or something, makes me too cross. :Rage


I am sorry, not what I meant, it was rather that they would be forced to go back, which is particularly hard on older people for whom it is hardly possible to have a new beginning.

We are truly upset around here- those who realise the true meaning behind the political spiel.

May giving in the last moment concessions to Spain is just so pathetic.

If I misinterpreted your post I am sorry, but have impression it might happen both ways.

No one here wants to be forced to go UK and have the community built by generations destroyed.

If Spain has any say about the waters, air, ports, airport and taxes this what will happen.

To your family and mine.

As a result of Brexit.

Only Britain can stop that. Only Brits can do that if they care at all.

I don't trust May or any of them for that matter.


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://amp.ft.com/content/a2bfa7c8-f0c0-11e8-ae55-df4bf40f9d0d

The FT tells us 
*What will the EU do if UK parliament rejects Brexit deal?*


----------



## KittenKong

From singer Mike Harding. He's absolutely spot on.

Dear Mrs May

I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table. 
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal. 
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma. 

So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe. 

You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was bollocks as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered. 

Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it

You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying bastards Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power. 

You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out

Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market. 
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development - Germany managed it. But no - The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil

So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous. 48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them. There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers - homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit. 

The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander 
mentality. Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> https://amp.ft.com/content/a2bfa7c8-f0c0-11e8-ae55-df4bf40f9d0d
> 
> The FT tells us
> *What will the EU do if UK parliament rejects Brexit deal?*


Parliament won't reject May's deal. I'm 100% sure of it. Here's why:

1). Not satisfied with the UK divided between Brexiters and Remainers she's now causing divisions between the two groups. Brexiters are being told it's my Brexit or No Brexit. This will have split the pro Brexit faction. Even some No Deal backers will say, "May's Brexit is better than no Brexit at all however unhappy they are with it.

Likewise, she's similarly dividing Remainers, saying, " Back my deal or they'll be no deal". However unhappy they are with the loss of their FOM rights some will reluctantly accept May's deal as it's better than the alternative.

A very clever tactic, then I've always seen May as a very dangerous woman showing signs of an impending fascist dictator. Now we can expect another decade of her at least if not longer. I better speak my mind while I'm still able to.

God help us all.

2). Project fear in the event of a No Deal. Stockpiling of food and medicines etc. etc. MP's will never vote for that option.

Most MP's from both sides of the house are stuck in the, "We must respect the will of the people"
, mindset they've held since June 2016 not respecting people can change their minds even if they can, so they won't risk a no Brexit as they'll be scared of losing their cushy jobs with their belief in that.

Likewise, they'll be unlikely to unanimously back No Deal as they see that a worse alternative to May's plan.


----------



## KittenKong

Of course they're still the stupid types who blame remainers for the UK not getting a good deal!

Do people like him not realise Theresa May agreed amongst herself what Brexiters' like him voted for?

After all, the amount of England flags and support for the team in the World Cup didn't help them win it, did it!

Most remainers' are deeply unhappy too.


----------



## KittenKong

I'll settle for that for now Mr Corbyn as regards not backing May's deal.

I only hope you keep your word.


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> I'm only amazed this isn't common knowledge by now...


That tweet was the first I'd heard of it. How ridiculous we must look to other countries. All this self harm & for what gain? I will never understand it.

Do the people on here who have championing no deal even though we will have food & medicine shortages - still want it now it likely means no clean drinking water as well?

Does it not not matter how bad it gets as long as we leave?



Arnie83 said:


> This is my reply, sent via my MP ...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Arnie's MP
> 
> Theresa May wrote a letter to the public regarding her negotiated Withdrawal Agreement. I have quoted below, and responded to, a few of the points and would be grateful if you could make my views known to the Prime Minister, to whom the following is directly addressed.
> 
> "It will be a deal that is in our national interest - one that works for our whole country and all of our people, whether you voted 'Leave' or 'Remain'. "​
> I'm afraid your definition of the national interest differs from mine. I see a reduction in our economic growth potential by making trade with the rest of our current single EU marketplace more expensive, lowering business profits and tax revenue. Government figures, supported by those from every reputable organisation, predict lower GDP growth as a result of Brexit, as indeed you yourself did prior to the referendum. I'm afraid this deal therefore does not 'work' for me, and I'm sure many others. There are many deals that would be even less in the national interest - particularly 'No Deal' - but that doesn't mean that this one qualifies for that description.
> 
> "We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.
> 
> "Instead, we will be able to spend British taxpayers' money on our own priorities, like the extra £394 million per week that we are investing in our long-term plan for the NHS. "​
> Repeating the false implication that Brexit facilitates an increase in NHS spending does not make it any less false. The sums available for future spending will be lower as a result of Brexit and its associated costs. We would be able to spend more on the NHS were we to remain members of the EU than when we leave it. Many will be believe your claim, but it is still disingenuous. It deliberately seeks to mislead the electorate, and further reduces respect for politics and politicians in this country.
> 
> "The deal also protects the things we value."​
> One of the things I value most is my European citizenship. It is a significant part of my identity. Emphasizing our geographical proximity to the rest of the continent, and all the talk of 'friends' and 'allies' does not change the fact that Brexit seeks to remove that part of my identity by edict. In effect it says "You cannot be a European citizen any more; only the British part of you is valid." Were the promise of individual associate EU citizenship to have been part of the deal I would reconsider much of what I say in this response, but I am not holding my breath.
> 
> "A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.
> 
> "As Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I have from day one been determined to deliver a Brexit deal that works for every part of our country - for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, for our Overseas Territories like Gibraltar, and also for the Crown Dependencies.
> 
> "This deal will do that."​
> This deal is the Withdrawal Agreement, and will facilitate trade only for the Transition Period. What will happen after 2020, or 2022, or whenever, is still entirely unknown and subject to further, and much more detailed negotiation.
> 
> It is, though, worth pointing out that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar voted to Remain in the EU, so how you can claim that this deal works for them is hard to fathom.
> 
> "Crucially, it will protect the integrity of our United Kingdom and ensure that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland - so people can live their lives as they do now."​
> I live my life now as a European citizen. The one thing that there can be no doubt about whatsoever is that I can no long live as I do now, because the whole point of Brexit is to stop me doing that by seeking forcibly to restrict my affiliation. The implied logic that this will give me a nice warm feeling of belonging to what you refer to as 'our precious Union' is, let us say, imperfect.
> 
> "It is a deal for a brighter future, which enables us to seize the opportunities that lie ahead
> 
> "Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.​
> Your Government's calculations conclude that trade deals with the rest of the world might contribute an increase in GDP in the range of 0.2% to 0.7%; far short of what we lose through any flavour of Brexit. And that is assuming we can and do sign such deals, both of which provisos, as I am sure you are aware, are very uncertain. Once again, though, this 'deal' has little bearing on the yet-to-be-negotiated future trade relationship, so it is quite wrong to claim that it enables us to do anything post-transition.
> 
> However, the closer we stay to the EU in terms of a trading relationship the more restricted will be the possibilities for new trade deals outside of the Union. Given the small contribution that those deals might make, this is no great cause for concern, but to claim that these potential trade deals would somehow see the UK better off is, according to your own figures - and indeed everyone's except Patrick Minford's - quite false.
> 
> "On 29 March next year, the United Kingdom will leave the European Union.
> 
> "We will then begin a new chapter in our national life. I want that to be a moment of renewal and reconciliation for our whole country.
> 
> "It must mark the point when we put aside the labels of 'Leave' and 'Remain' for good and we come together again as one people.​
> The idea that 29 March next year will mark a reconciliation of 'Leave' and 'Remain' at all, let alone 'for good', is fanciful. It will not only be a very sad day for those such as myself, who will see the door to our European citizenship slammed in our faces by the forces of insular tribalism. It will also be a sad day for the country, which will have shown itself to be parochial, obsessed with mediaeval notions of territorial dominion, glorying in a perceived siege mentality, driven by primitive attitudes towards 'the other', and attracted more by a sepia-tinged narrow nostalgia than by an open and progressive global future.
> 
> In conclusion, the Tory party might eventually come together - which aim has apparently been the main driver in this whole fiasco - but the country will be split for half a century.
> 
> Luv Arnie.
> 
> p.s. Are we still on for Christmas drinkies @ Chequers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's too long to read, suffice to say that on a number of topics we don't really see eye to eye.


I've read it all and it is excellent Arnie! I hope shes knee deep in such letters - not that shes ever listened before.



Elles said:


> I see Michael Gove has "taken the no deal pill and seen how bad things would get"
> 
> I would be really interested to see what would happen with Gove as PM.


I can tell you what would happen if this duplicitous liar was PM- it would mean more cruel polices, more cuts to the public purse to further enrich private pockets, more tax cuts for the elite and corporate interests - more of the same MAX!

Heres a sample of his shameful voting record



















.


KittenKong said:


> From singer Mike Harding. He's absolutely spot on.
> 
> Dear Mrs May
> 
> I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
> Your party's little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders
> I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
> My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
> 
> So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren's freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
> 
> You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said " illegal" but that was bollocks as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
> 
> Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
> 
> You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying bastards Gove and Bojo but daren't because you haven't the actual power.
> 
> You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
> 
> Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
> You could have kept our industries going with investment and development - Germany managed it. But no - The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
> 
> So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous. 48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them. There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers - homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
> 
> The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I've bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I'm typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I'm tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander
> mentality. Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.


Sums everything up perfectly!

Here is another excellent very informed letter >>>>

"Dear Prime Minister,

As I read your letter, penned on the occasion of the signing of the Brexit deal, I find myself confused, saddened and angry in equal parts

Confused, because your letter contains so many clear contradictions and outright lies, it is impossible to understand what we are supposed to make of it. Indeed, I am not even sure that you believe what you have written.

What exactly do you hope to gain by putting forward something so full of holes?

Saddened, because it proves beyond doubt that you have abandoned your duty - enshrined in the Code of Conduct every MP pledges to adhere to - to work in the national interest, in the interest of your constituents, and to make every decision on merit.
Brexit fails all three of those tests.

And angry because, despite overwhelming evidence that the hodgepodge frankendeal you are agreeing to will please nobody and has zero chance of being carried in Parliament, you persist in running down the clock by pretending it is viable.

Each passing minute brings us closer to Brexit Day, and the waiting cliff-edge of no deal. No deal remains the default Brexit outcome, a consequence of you having triggered Article 50 when you did. We are on the conveyor belt towards the pool of sharks. Absent a deal, we will
fall off the end of it on 29 March 2019 at 11pm.

From the outset of your premiership, you have interpreted a razor-thin margin for Leave in an advisory referendum as a mandate for pursuing Brexit at any cost. But the outcome of a vote cannot affect the outcome of the
negotiations themselves, any more than someone could vote to win the lottery or vote for their team to triumph in a key match. Cause and effect don't work like that. By the same token, it is impossible to vote for Brexit to be good.

At best, the advisory referendum result imposed a duty to try and make Brexit work. And nobody could accuse you of not trying. Your Government has spent £4.2 billion on Brexit planning and preparations, money that could have gone to a desperate NHS, to failing schools, to an over-stretched police force. Instead, you opted to spend it in pursuit of Brexit. Thousands of civil servants have worked on the problem full-time, and an entire new ministry, DExEU, has been devoted to nothing else. (DExEU alone has consumed £100 million in salaries to date).

Having expended all that money, all that effort, it is now overwhelmingly clear that every possible form of Brexit will leave the UK poorer, weaker and more isolated in the world, at a time when we are beset with dangers on every side. From Russia's meddling in the democratic process to China flexing its economic muscles, from Donald Trump's disdain for NATO and the UN to the rise of hard-right governments across the world, this is the worst possible time to retreat behind closed borders. Instead, we should be reaching out to our neighbours - our friends - and clubbing together with them to fend off these and other challenges.

The deal on the table cannot be in the national interest. It locks us into the EU's structures without giving us any say as to how the EU is run. We will leave the EU on Brexit Day, that much is
certain. But, like someone jumping out of a plane without a parachute, we will be reliant on the thick cord of transition to shield us from the horrors of no deal. For so long as the transition period continues, the worst Brexit consequences will be held at bay. But we will be
hamstrung in our ability to sign new deals, and we will be forced to stay in lock-step with every rule change introduced by the EU, regardless of whether it advantages or hurts UK interests. We can cut the transition cord, sure, but then we're immediately back to the no deal scenario which your own Government figures estimate will gouge 8.8% off GDP.

The EU made a strong, generous offer on free movement. You chose to rebuff it, and perpetuate instead a new, more virulent form of the aggressive "hostile environment" you instigated as Home Secretary.

Your chosen approach is sickening to any fair-minded person. We don't need the overwhelming statistical evidence that immigrants contribute far more than they cost the UK to know that what you are proposing is just plain wrong. We can already see its impact writ large on the faces of our EU friends and family, colleagues and neighbours, and it is heartbreaking.

Your tune may play well to the hard right of your party, but it is a harsh, clanging discord to everyone else.

Furthermore, your letter fails to address reciprocity. If we are going to deliberately make life tough for the three million EU citizens who make the UK their home, then the EU27 will logically do the same for the over one million UK citizens who have chosen a life in the EU27.

It is worth noting that the beta test of the Home Office registration system, meant to be used to register all EU citizens within 3 years of Brexit Day, took two weeks to process a little over a thousand people from a carefully defined, homogeneous pool of applicants.

At that speed, it will take over 130 years to register every EU citizen. The beta test also threw up dozens of edge cases, which suggests that the full registration process will potentially leave tens of thousands of people at risk of the kind of errors that have so grievously afflicted the Windrush generation.

Britain used to have a reputation as an open, friendly, tolerant society. No longer. That is entirely on you. You chose to rebuff the EU's overture, and instead pursue a narrow-minded, petty regime that is already sending valuable workers fleeing for friendlier climes.

In your letter, you refer to spending an extra £394 million a week on the NHS after Brexit. But that money has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit. It is going to come from extra Government borrowing, and from better than expected tax receipts.

Indeed, the best estimates to date suggest that the economy is already £500 million a week worse off because of Brexit than if the result of the referendum had been to stay. Conflating the NHS money and Brexit in the same letter must therefore be interpreted as a wilful deceit, an attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of a UK population you see as gullible enough to swallow the lie.
We deserve better.

Meanwhile, Brexit has real consequences, even ahead of Brexit Day. Jobs are moving, investment is drying up, firms are moving assets to the EU27 or redomiciling.
The key passporting system that the financial sector relies on to sell their services across the EU has been abandoned somewhere along the Brexit negotiations in favour of a much weaker equivalence regime. Already firms such as Lloyd's of London, Bank of America,HSBC, Deutsche Bank, Barclays, Standard Chartered, Daiwa Capital Markets and CME Group have transferred aspects of their business out of the UK. Similarly, dozens of insurance firms have moved their EU27 clients away, and hundreds more are poised to follow. The financial services sector employs 3.5% of people, so the job losses may be consequential, but it also contributes a vital 11% of all taxes to Government coffers. The loss of even a slice of that tax revenue will leave a gaping hole come Budget time.

You talk about the deal delivering for all parts of the UK, but two out of its four component countries voted to stay in the EU. You also mention that it protects Gibraltar, but the assurances given to the Spanish government on Saturday mean that it will do no such thing. Furthermore, polls taken since the referendum show an overwhelming shift from Leave to Remain, with the gap widening every single poll. So you can be sure that the narrow majority (of voters - not of the entire UK) that came out in favour of Leave during the referendum no longer exists today.

You describe being able to seize the opportunity to do new trade deals with the fastest-growing economies, but many of those are only growing fast because they are starting from a very low base. Their growth may look good in percentage terms, but that's playing tricks with numbers. The total size of their market is a rounding error compared to the vast EU market we are turning our backs on. We cannot escape geography. The EU is close as well as rich. Only 0.5% of our trade is done by air, the rest goes by sea, so it is impossible to replace trade with our near neighbours with trade with far-flung nations. Even if businesses were prepared to absorb the extra costs of doing so, there is simply no capacity to ramp up air freight to the extent needed to achieve such a step change.

You talk of Brexit being settled.

That is the biggest deceit of all. Brexit Day is Day Zero of Brexit. It marks the transition between the phoney war of the exit negotiations and the hot war of trade deals and treaties. We are out of all the EU treaties and agreements on Brexit Day, but the impact of leaving them will be cushioned by the transition mechanism. But just because we don't experience the result of something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Through our EU membership, we enjoy free trade deals with countries covering 60% of all our trade. All those trade deals will need to be
replaced just to achieve the status quo we currently enjoy, even before we can start to see any benefits from Brexit. Indeed, Jacob Rees-Mogg believes that it may take half a century for the economic benefits of Brexit to present themselves. He may not be right about many things, but he is surely right in this. We have at least 78 trade deals to replace (the EU signs new ones every few months, so we are chasing a moving target). On average, countries such as the US, India and China take between 3-5 years to agree one new trade deal. We simply do not have the capacity to negotiate dozens effectively in parallel, so we are going to have to pick and choose and prioritise. It is self-evident that this work will not be complete by the end of transition.

So, far from being a moment of reconciliation between Leave and Remain, Brexit Day marks the starting point of a blame game that may endure for generations. Outside the EU, there will be no more pretending, no way to ignore the facts of Brexit, because we will be experiencing them every day. And naturally, when things go wrong - as they
inevitably will, due to the nature of Brexit itself - the impulse will be to lash out, to find someone to blame. That blame starts at the top, with those who lead us on an avoidable course to doom, but it will spread until it poisons every corner of society. That too is on you.

Prime Minister, you still have the power to take the UK in a dramatically different direction. Instead of sticking to a course that will see our economy founder on the Brexit rocks, it is within your purview to rescind Article 50 and concentrate instead on the important thingsyou highlight in your letter: the NHS, giving children the right start in life, building the homes that people need, tackling burning injustices, and building a forward-looking country that works for everyone.

None of those things are possible if you persist with Brexit.

If you change course, suddenly everything opens up.

I urge you to abandon your messianic quest to secure Brexit at any cost, and instead consider the true best interests of your constituents and of the UK as a whole. Hold up the prism of merit to Brexit and see it for what it is: an unachievable pipe-dream that will rob us of our future. Make the right choice.

Campaign with your heart and soul for a better future for our country, not one dictated by a vote that could never be realised in practice.

Edwin Hayward


----------



## noushka05

Brian Cox's reaction to said letter.

*Brian Cox*‏Verified account @ProfBrianCox 22h22 hours ago
Brian Cox Retweeted Theresa May

Nothing here is in the long term interests of the UK and its people. It is indefensible beyond the only justification you can give - a slim majority in 2016. It is permanently damaging and you know it. Your only aim now is to seek a slim majority of MPs.
I will never support it.

(more reactions)

You've called me a Remoaner, a saboteur & a citizen of nowhere. You've spat on my EU national wife & friends, & on my British friends living in Europe. 
You've ignored the criminality, corruption & gerrymandering of the ref. 
Now you ask for support for your shitty deal? 
F***. You.

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 8h8 hours ago
Theresa May: "It's time for those who voted Leave and those enemy-of-the-people, anti-democratic, queue-jumping, will-of-the-people-hating, citizen-of-nowhere Remoaner traitors to unite



*Armando Iannucci*‏Verified account @Aiannucci
This week the man who negotiated the Brexit deal resigned because of the deal he negotiated, while the woman who wants to go beyond parliament and appeal to the people refuses to let the people vote on it since that's a matter for parliament. Pair of clods. #PeoplesVote

*Yvette Cooper*‏Verified account @YvetteCooperMP 21h21 hours ago
The trouble with this "renewal & reconciliation" stuff from the Prime Minister is that she's done the complete opposite for the last two & a half years. She never consulted on the objectives, never tried to build consensus. How on earth does she expect people to believe her now?

*James O'Brien*‏Verified account @mrjamesob 16h16 hours ago

Return To Sender.


*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis
Andrew Adonis Retweeted Theresa May

Dear Mrs May, Your letter is as damaging and disgraceful as Mr Chamberlain's piece of paper which he brought back from Munich. Let's hope it doesn't have equally serious consequences and that we can reverse your damaging policy in a people's vote


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Parliament won't reject May's deal. I'm 100% sure of it. Here's why:
> 
> 1). Not satisfied with the UK divided between Brexiters and Remainers she's now causing divisions between the two groups. Brexiters are being told it's my Brexit or No Brexit. This will have split the pro Brexit faction. Even some No Deal backers will say, "May's Brexit is better than no Brexit at all however unhappy they are with it.
> 
> Likewise, she's similarly dividing Remainers, saying, " Back my deal or they'll be no deal". However unhappy they are with the loss of their FOM rights some will reluctantly accept May's deal as it's better than the alternative.
> 
> A very clever tactic, then I've always seen May as a very dangerous woman showing signs of an impending fascist dictator. Now we can expect another decade of her at least if not longer. I better speak my mind while I'm still able to.
> 
> God help us all.
> 
> 2). Project fear in the event of a No Deal. Stockpiling of food and medicines etc. etc. MP's will never vote for that option.
> 
> Most MP's from both sides of the house are stuck in the, "We must respect the will of the people"
> , mindset they've held since June 2016 not respecting people can change their minds even if they can, so they won't risk a no Brexit as they'll be scared of losing their cushy jobs with their belief in that.
> 
> Likewise, they'll be unlikely to unanimously back No Deal as they see that a worse alternative to May's plan.


But it is not Parliaments choice about no deal. Junker made it clear yesterday that if the only deal on the table is rejected by the house it is no deal.

The deal on the table is none negiotable and the EU leaders are not prepared to renegotiate it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> But it is not Parliaments choice about no deal. Junker made it clear yesterday that if the only deal on the table is rejected by the house it is no deal.
> 
> The deal on the table is none negiotable and the EU leaders are not prepared to renegotiate it.


Obviously No Deal or Remain. Remain is not a deal.

People should unite in quitting their support for Tory wars. Unite in choosing what is good for economy , for ordinary people like themselves. In rejecting those backstabbing nest of vipers at the top. Reject lying self serving careerists who will produce Remain or Leave speaches and views for hire.

Time for it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously No Deal or Remain. Remain is not a deal.
> 
> People should unite in quitting their support for Tory wars. Unite in choosing what is good for economy , for ordinary people like themselves. In rejecting those backstabbing nest of vipers at the top. Reject lying self serving careerists who will produce Remain or Leave speaches and views for hire.
> 
> Time for it.


He was clear cheeky about what he said and no deal doesn't mean remaining.

He said (recap): "if the House (House of Commons he means) rejects the deal on the table then it is no deal."

He went on to say in his interview the agreement is not open for renoegotiation and is the only deal on the table. Plan B is no deal.

The only document open for renegotiation is the political statement if either the red lines are removed or Corbyn becomes PM. None of these will happen btw. The withdrawal agreement remains none negotiable.


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## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> He was clear cheeky about what he said and no deal doesn't mean remaining.
> 
> He said (recap): "if the House (House of Commons he means) rejects the deal on the table then it is no deal."
> 
> He went on to say in his interview the agreement is not open for renoegotiation and is the only deal on the table. Plan B is no deal.
> 
> The only document open for renegotiation is the political statement if either the red lines are removed or Corbyn becomes PM. None of these will happen btw. The withdrawal agreement remains none negotiable.


Well if there is no deal at least you and the other leave voters/supporters on here who have been rooting for us to crash out will be happy.


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## noushka05

Look at the state of this. I witnessed the backlash on twitter , so glad to see its now made the media. I hope shes thoroughly embarrassed .

*British woman living in France complains about immigrants without a sense of irony*

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-british-woman-france-immigration-ex-pat-twitter-8642786


*







*


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## stockwellcat.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-theresa-may-brexit-deal-is-the-max-eu-can-do-says-mark-rutte/amp/

Junker then went on to deliver this clear warning (watch the TV interview on this report): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...t-this-is-the-only-deal-possible-says-juncker


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> From singer Mike Harding. He's absolutely spot on.
> 
> Dear Mrs May
> 
> I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
> Your party's little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders
> I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
> My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
> 
> So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren's freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
> 
> You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said " illegal" but that was bollocks as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
> 
> Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
> 
> You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying bastards Gove and Bojo but daren't because you haven't the actual power.
> 
> You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
> 
> Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
> You could have kept our industries going with investment and development - Germany managed it. But no - The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
> 
> So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous. 48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them. There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers - homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
> 
> The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I've bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I'm typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I'm tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander
> mentality. Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.


"WI Harridans". Nice chap. Surely you can do better than promulgating and supporting misogynistic hate-speech?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Ok, how does that compare with population increases?


You wont have to worry about 'over population' here when you get the no deal you wanted. Dysentery should bring numbers down pretty quickly. Its a win win,


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## noushka05

*Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor 18h18 hours ago
Jessica Simor QC Retweeted Sajid Javid

PM has won the backing of the EU27 but not of her own party, not of the opposition and not of the country. Parliament will reject the deal and should either order revocation of Article 50 or require a @peoplesvote_uk now.

*Peter Altmaier*‏Verified account @peteraltmaier 17h17 hours ago
Dear UK, dear British friends! Brexit is the final proof against that odd thesis of the EU superstate: Every member state may freely leave the union at any time. It's upon the citizens & the Parlaments. We will badly miss you. We love you.


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377668
> 
> View attachment 377669
> 
> View attachment 377670
> 
> View attachment 377671
> 
> View attachment 377672
> 
> View attachment 377673
> 
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-theresa-may-brexit-deal-is-the-max-eu-can-do-says-mark-rutte/amp/
> 
> Junker then went on to deliver this clear warning (watch the TV interview on this report): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...t-this-is-the-only-deal-possible-says-juncker


If Juncker and the other EU leaders had said "You can always stay in and that's what we want," what do you think the reaction would have been over here, especially from the right wing press and the Mogglodytes? And if they had held out the possibility of something other than No Deal being an option, how much would that have undermined May's stance?

Of course they are going to say that No Deal is the only other option. That doesn't mean it's true. It's politics.


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## noushka05

*Monique Hawkins*‏ @monlouhawk 22h22 hours ago
Monique Hawkins Retweeted Theresa May

What I find even more gutwrenchingly offensive than: "we will end free movement" is the addition: "once and for all" 
A phrase usually reserved for extreme dangers, evils, diseases etc.

Shame, shame, shame on you, Prime Minister.

PS Free movement is RECIPROCAL.

*essica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor 12h12 hours ago
Jessica Simor QC Retweeted Mark Cockerton

The first Government in the history of the world to give away its legislative powers in vast areas to other countries in exchange for the right to remove its own citizens rights and freedoms. Extraordinary - truly extraordinary
*Mark Cockerton*‏ @CockertonMark
I have returned from Europe with this piece of paper. It guarantees the freedom of you, your children and grandchildren to live & work in 27 countries will end. In exchange you will get higher prices, lower growth, job losses and reduced global influence. Oh, and a blue passport.

*Seb Dance MEP*‏Verified account @SebDance 19h19 hours ago
May is appealing to a British sense of compromise. Clever. But look at facts

. A compromise only works where both sides *gain*.

Here, everybody *loses*.

We must be able to debate the merits of this against EU membership. Otherwise our democracy is seriously failing

................................................................................................................


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> If Juncker and the other EU leaders had said "You can always stay in and that's what we want," what do you think the reaction would have been over here, especially from the right wing press and the Mogglodytes? And if they had held out the possibility of something other than No Deal being an option, how much would that have undermined May's stance?
> 
> Of course they are going to say that No Deal is the only other option. That doesn't mean it's true. It's politics.


Your opinion has been read. But I am sticking with what the EU Leaders have said. Thank you.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> But it is not Parliaments choice about no deal. Junker made it clear yesterday that if the only deal on the table is rejected by the house it is no deal.
> 
> The deal on the table is none negiotable and the EU leaders are not prepared to renegotiate it.


Which is why, as I said, I'll believe they'll pass May's deal.

They won't consider the option of cancelling Brexit as most MPs are stuck in the June 2016 mindset of, "Respecting the will of the people".

They won't risk backing No Deal either having heard the likely outcome of that.

They want to hold onto their cushy jobs with double figure percentage annual pay increases where the rest of us have to do without.

Let's face it: You won't be getting your No Deal and I won't be getting my PV with the option to cancel Brexit.

May won, we lost but get over it? Like hell......


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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong

Detained at Theresa May's pleasure.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20181123/th...W_adaYbGq55JMNpBxlqhnWX5bPlxFMzldeUrqmcyHCMR0


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Your opinion has been read. But I am sticking with what the EU Leaders have said. Thank you.


Nothing wrong with that, so long as you're sure it's not just because it's what you want to hear.


----------



## Elles

The problem we have is the Eu members can have their cake and eat it with Theresa May negotiating on behalf of big business. France and Spain are getting what they want from the U.K., whilst also getting more power in the Eu and Europe. I’m not so sure they will want us back, now they’ve seen what they can get without us.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> The problem we have is the Eu members can have their cake and eat it with Theresa May negotiating on behalf of big business. France and Spain are getting what they want from the U.K., whilst also getting more power in the Eu and Europe. I'm not so sure they will want us back, now they've seen what they can get without us.


To be honest, Elles, personally I suspect the result wouldn't have been much different no matter who did the negotiating. Brexit gave EU member countries an opportunity to get long desired concessions from the UK that they wouldn't have been able to get as long as we remained in the EU. Can't blame them for taking their chance. We would have, were the roles reversed.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Look at the state of this. I witnessed the backlash on twitter , so glad to see its now made the media. I hope shes thoroughly embarrassed .
> 
> *British woman living in France complains about immigrants without a sense of irony*
> J
> https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-british-woman-france-immigration-ex-pat-twitter-8642786
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


We're still members of the Eu and she's living in Europe. She's clearly talking about immigrants from outside of Europe. Europeans aren't exactly immigrants here, they're people taking advantage of FOM. Clearly she doesn't think she's any different from her French neighbours.

It's more anti Muslim sentiment than anti European. I don't doubt that some of her French friends had the same complaint. I've heard similar complaints about none Europeans here and not all from Brits. Ironic? Vaguely.

It was probably better when I didn't read these copied tweets, they're just as manipulated to suit an agenda as anything from the other side. The Eu is protecting itself by backing Spain and France, same as it always does.

The jokes and satire is sometimes funny, but it's not exactly accurate.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Detained at Theresa May's pleasure.
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20181123/th...W_adaYbGq55JMNpBxlqhnWX5bPlxFMzldeUrqmcyHCMR0
> 
> View attachment 377681


UK Citizens will still have free movement as only 33 countries in the whole of the world require you to have a visa to visit their countries for a holiday.

Here is a long list of countries UK citizens can travel to without a visa for upto 90 days: https://www.visa-point.com/page/Travel_without_visa/

So there you go. Freedom of travel. UK Citizens will still be able to travel to the EU visa free during the transition period and perhaps afterwards as well depending on what is agreed in the future relationship bit of the negotiations over the next 20 months to 2 years. Didn't the EU already agree that UK citizens will still have freedom of travel to other European countries for up to 90 days in any 180 period without a visa?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> To be honest, Elles, personally I suspect the result wouldn't have been much different no matter who did the negotiating. Brexit gave EU member countries an opportunity to get long desired concessions from the UK that they wouldn't have been able to get as long as we remained in the EU. Can't blame them for taking their chance. We would have, were the roles reversed.


Yep and they keep trying to say that both sides are losing. Some Eu member countries are doing very well out of it and there will be a shift in power. There are quite a few interesting articles and debates about it. Of course the main focus here is what will happen to the UK outside of the Eu. There's been less interest in what's happening within the Eu, though @cheekyscrip has mentioned it a few times.


----------



## Arnie83

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067003484833308673

Krishnan Guru-Murthy

✔@krishgm
Here's one of the Plan B's : staying in the single market (including free movement) AND a customs union until something better worked out. No backstop needed. Opposite of Tory manifesto, but Sun suggests Brexiteer Gove and Remainer Rudd agree on it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> UK Citizens will still have free movement as only 33 countries in the whole of the world require you to have a visa to visit their countries for a holiday.
> 
> Here is a long list of countries UK citizens can travel to without a visa for upto 90 days: https://www.visa-point.com/page/Travel_without_visa/
> 
> So there you go. Freedom of travel. UK Citizens will still be able to travel to the EU visa free during the transition period and perhaps afterwards as well depending on what is agreed in the future relationship bit of the negotiations over the next 20 months to 2 years.


Freedom of movement is not the same as freedom of travel.


----------



## Arnie83

May's deal v. Remain ...

*Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030*

The government's Brexit deal will leave the UK £100bn worse off by 2030 than if it had remained in the EU, a study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) has said.

The study commissioned by the People's Vote, which wants a second referendum, said GDP would be 3.9% lower.

"This is the equivalent of losing the economic output of Wales or the City of London," it said.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46338585

Feel free to impugn the NIESR, but it is generally held to be very reputable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Freedom of movement is not the same as freedom of travel.


You will still have the freedom to travel and of movement. Anyone can leave the UK and set up a new life in a new country. Did you know you still need to go through all the red tape in another European country to live there? Also you have to get a residents permit (similar to a visa).

Edited

This is very similar to other European countries. Here is the process in the Netherlands: https://www.expatax.nl/workgeneral


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Yep and they keep trying to say that both sides are losing. Some Eu member countries are doing very well out of it and there will be a shift in power. There are quite a few interesting articles and debates about it. Of course the main focus here is what will happen to the UK outside of the Eu. There's been less interest in what's happening within the Eu, though @cheekyscrip has mentioned it a few times.


Well, there was never going to be as big an impact on the EU as on us, though some would obviously do better than others. Any EU country with industries similar to the UK stands to gain in those areas, as does any that produces goods we definitely need. As the bigger of the two negotiating parties, they always had the much better odds of coming out well ahead however Brexit ended anyway. Us spending mosf of the negotiating time infighting and blaming everyone but ourselves for the mess only gave them a further advantage.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> UK Citizens will still have free movement as only 33 countries in the whole of the world require you to have a visa to visit their countries for a holiday.
> 
> Here is a long list of countries UK citizens can travel to without a visa for upto 90 days: https://www.visa-point.com/page/Travel_without_visa/
> 
> So there you go. Freedom of travel. UK Citizens will still be able to travel to the EU visa free during the transition period and perhaps afterwards as well depending on what is agreed in the future relationship bit of the negotiations over the next 20 months to 2 years. Didn't the EU already agree that UK citizens will still have freedom of travel to other European countries for up to 90 days in any 180 period without a visa?


90 days? Big bloody deal! We've enjoyed the freedom to live and work in 30 other countries. I have relatives who took advantage of the policy.

And what gives her the right to say, "For good"? Does she intend to stay in power indefinitely like Robert Mugabe and other dictators did/do?

It's Theresa May who's personally decided to take that right away from me, which is what I resent more than anything else. Celebrate my possible forced encapture to this island at her pleasure?

Like hell should I embrace that!!!

That angers me as I'm sure when she bleats on about delivering the Brexit you voted for must annoy you. Fancy her deciding what you voted for on your behalf?

And, if there is a NHS staffing crisis do you think she would allow professionals to leave the UK, even to countries outside the EU?

People won't miss what they never had, but taking this right away people have taken for granted over the past few years is something else.


----------



## Elles

Better isn’t always economically. People could stop focusing on only the economies. If Spain get Gibraltar, some Spanish will feel they’ve won, even if it sent their country into the deepest, darkest recession. They would think it was worth it. Of course it won’t, but that’s not the point. 

Even if they lose out a bit financially, which they won’t, a lot of French would think it well worth it to get rid of the U.K. and get more power in Europe. With May’s deal, they get the money and the advantages. Win win for them. 

With the divorce deal the Eu will get enough money to tide them over, without asking for more from Germany or France. They have already stated that they won’t be asking for more from them, so they don’t have any shortfalls to make up. 

There’s been a lot of talk of motor industries, if we take the time to look at them, they had their problems already and nothing to do with Brexit, or the U.K. for many of them. There are a lot of shifts and changes occurring separate from brexit that people try to pull in and blame on brexit.

Nope, imo, the powers in Europe and the Eu will do very well out of May's deal thankyouverymuch. They probably can’t wait to see us gone and are probably waiting with bated breath to see if it goes through our end now.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> 90 days? Big bloody deal! We've enjoyed the freedom to live and work in 30 other countries. I have relatives who took advantage of the policy.
> 
> And what gives her the right to say, "For good"? Does she intend to stay in power indefinitely like Robert Mugabe and other dictators did/do?
> 
> It's Theresa May who's personally decided to take that right away from me, which is what I resent more than anything else. Celebrate my possible forced encapture to this island at her pleasure?
> 
> Like hell should I embrace that!!!
> 
> That angers me as I'm sure when she bleats on about delivering the Brexit you voted for must annoy you. Fancy her deciding what you voted for on your behalf?
> 
> And, if there is a NHS staffing crisis do you think she would allow professionals to leave the UK, even to countries outside the EU?
> 
> People won't miss what they never had, but taking this right away people have taken for granted over the past few years is something else.


All the usual stuff then. Nothing new


----------



## stockwellcat.

It looks like the majority of the Northern Irish parties are backing the deal and encouraging Labour to as well.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You will still have the freedom to travel and of movement. Anyone can leave the UK and set up a new life in a new country. Did you know you still need to go through all the red tape in another European country to live there? Also you have to get a residents permit (similar to a visa).
> 
> Edited
> 
> This is very similar to other European countries. Here is the process in the Netherlands: https://www.expatax.nl/workgeneral


So are all the Europeans going to have the same freedom of movement - to come and work and live here - as you say we will apparently still have to work and live in their countries?

Or will we be negotiating for an end to Freedom of Movement only _to_ the UK and not _from_ it? Seems a little unfair, doesn't it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So are all the Europeans going to have the same freedom of movement - to come and work and live here - as you say we will apparently still have to work and live in their countries?
> 
> Or will we be negotiating for an end to Freedom of Movement only _to_ the UK and not _from_ it? Seems a little unfair, doesn't it?


You not grasping it are you. We have this freedom already regardless if we are in the EU or not. We can go and live in any country we wish as long as we have a visa and abide to there laws. The freedom is already there without being part of the EU. You have always had the freedom to leave the UK and start a new life elsewhere.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> You will still have the freedom to travel and of movement. Anyone can leave the UK and set up a new life in a new country. Did you know you still need to go through all the red tape in another European country to live there? Also you have to get a residents permit (similar to a visa).
> 
> Edited
> 
> This is very similar to other European countries. Here is the process in the Netherlands: https://www.expatax.nl/workgeneral


This is the process for non EU citizens wishing to work, live or study in Hungary

https://east-legal.com/immigration-options-available-in-hungary-for-non-eu-citizens/

I came here in February 2007 and bought a house - amend that to read hovel - which I moved into the following August. I applied and received my Residence Permit, OAP and NHS cards in the September. I could have stayed here without applying for a Residence Permit but would have been unable to purchase a car or qualify for free medical treatment and as an OAP enjoy free travel on public transport within the country.

At the moment I can use my Residence Permit instead of my UK Passport if I wish to visit another EU country and quite frankly if anyone thinks I'm going to apply for a visa just to make the 3 hour round trip to Kosice airport in Slovakia to pick up my family they can think again!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> This is the process for non EU citizens wishing to work, live or study in Hungary
> 
> https://east-legal.com/immigration-options-available-in-hungary-for-non-eu-citizens/
> 
> I came here in February 2007 and bought a house - amend that to read hovel - which I moved into the following August. I applied and received my Residence Permit, OAP and NHS cards in the September. I could have stayed here without applying for a Residence Permit but would have been unable to purchase a car or qualify for free medical treatment and as an OAP enjoy free travel on public transport within the country.
> 
> At the moment I can use my Residence Permit instead of my UK Passport if I wish to visit another EU country and quite frankly if anyone thinks I'm going to apply for a visa just to make the 3 hour round trip to Kosice airport in Slovakia to pick my family they can think again!


I had to go through the above process I linked above when I moved to Holland with a UK passport back in 1999. The only difference was I had to apply for a Sofi Number which was a tax number as the BSN number didn't exist. Everyone I worked with (all English) had to get work permits from the foreign police.


----------



## noushka05

Yep.

*Steve Bullock*‏ @GuitarMoog 19h19 hours ago
Steve Bullock Retweeted David Lidington

The 52% get Brexit, despite many now not wanting it as the deal bears little resemblance to what they were promised

The 48% get their predictions that were dismissed as project fear made reality.

100% get a deal worse than the current one, and a UK diminished in every way.

David Lidington_: Today's agreement is a good compromise. The 52% get control of laws, money, borders + out of CFP; the 48% get closer trade partnership with EU than Canada or any advanced economy + cooperation on police & security. Time for country to come together & #BackTheBrexitDeal_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yep.
> 
> *Steve Bullock*‏ @GuitarMoog 19h19 hours ago
> Steve Bullock Retweeted David Lidington
> 
> The 52% get Brexit, despite many now not wanting it as the deal bears little resemblance to what they were promised
> 
> The 48% get their predictions that were dismissed as project fear made reality.
> 
> 100% get a deal worse than the current one, and a UK diminished in every way.
> 
> David Lidington_: Today's agreement is a good compromise. The 52% get control of laws, money, borders + out of CFP; the 48% get closer trade partnership with EU than Canada or any advanced economy + cooperation on police & security. Time for country to come together & #BackTheBrexitDeal_


Well please don't get upset but the majority of the Northern Irish parties are backing the deal and the remain backing parties in Northern Ireland have agreed to back it as well. They are encouraging Labour MP's to back it as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

Project fear they said.

*Peter Foster*‏Verified account @pmdfoster 2h2 hours ago
This is a very startling chart from @NIESRorg study on #Brexit deal impact. (I have checked directly with the authors as the numbers looked so crazy bad but, no, you did not misread that.

Goods trade *DOWN* 40-60% over time in an FTA scenario, over staying in EU.

eeek.


----------



## Elles

So you’re saying that basically the remain government that were in power at the time made promises that the remain government in power now are making good on. ie the promise that brexit would be a disaster for us.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You not grasping it are you. We have this freedom already regardless if we are in the EU or not. We can go and live in any country we wish as long as we have a visa and abide to there laws. The freedom is already there without being part of the EU. You have always had the freedom to leave the UK and start a new life elsewhere.


What difference to the Brexiteers think leaving the EU will make to immigration then?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So you're saying that basically the remain government that were in power at the time made promises that the remain government in power now are making good on. ie the promise that brexit would be a disaster for us.


No I'm not Elles:Hilarious I think I've been quite clear that I NEVER trust a tory. Experts is every field warned us of the severe impacts & risks we faced - all dismissed as 'profect fear or scaremongering or fake news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Project fear they said.


Who Cameron and Osborne? They launched projected fear to get people to vote remain. Are you admitting Remainers were wrong all along and lying?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So you're saying that basically the remain government that were in power at the time made promises that the remain government in power now are making good on. ie the promise that brexit would be a disaster for us.


Well, it was hardly going to be possible to deliver the magical Brave New Island World scenario projected by the Leave campaign - even Disney would have struggled with that 

Besides, experts on every front warned the reality of Brexit would be less Swiss Family Robinson and more Marooned with Ed Stafford, so to speak.

Still, I'm sure nothing that doesn't work to our advantage in Brexit will never be the fault of actual Brexit or Brexiteer infighting - it can all be blamed on Remoaners, the EU, the WTO, the negotiating team, the DUP, the Tories, Labour, UKIP, immigrants, Father Christmas (who, lets face it, is an illegal immigrant himself - coming over here, stealing our mince pies...!) for not bringing us the Brexit we wanted, and those pesky Irish leprechauns for refusing to help implement the Magic Friction Free Hard Border in Ireland


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Project Fear Summed Up*










































Mark Wallace
18:14 Monday July 30th 2018

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/brexit-project-fear-david-cameron/amp/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You not grasping it are you. We have this freedom already regardless if we are in the EU or not. We can go and live in any country we wish as long as we have a visa and abide to there laws. The freedom is already there without being part of the EU. You have always had the freedom to leave the UK and start a new life elsewhere.


Well, certainly you will seeing you're eligible for an Irish/EU passport!

Otherwise your theory is rubbish as far as the average person in the street is concerned.

But you're right in a sense that people with money can usually live where they want, even buy EU passports.

Most of us wouldn't be able to afford that unless we won the lottery.

A visa doesn't allow residency. It only gives visiting rights. I guess that'll be fine for those who have holiday homes in, say Spain but many wish to make a permanent move. It'll be them who may encounter obstacles and may be forced to give up one Nationality in favour of another when they didn't have to before.

I fail to understand how anyone could be excited about the ending of FOM rights, but that doesn't apply to you.

You have a choice, most of us don't.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You not grasping it are you. We have this freedom already regardless if we are in the EU or not. We can go and live in any country we wish as long as we have a visa and abide to there laws. The freedom is already there without being part of the EU. You have always had the freedom to leave the UK and start a new life elsewhere.


So @stockwellcat. , I'm still wondering how ending freedom of movement will stop people coming to work and live in the UK - apparently one of the main reasons for Brexit - but won't affect us when we want to live and work in Europe.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, certainly you will seeing you're eligible for an Irish/EU passport!


It is not my fault that I was born in Northern Ireland to an English mother (born in Reading) and a Northern Irish Father who has always said he is British even though he was born in Northern Ireland and served in the British army during the cold war (1970's and 1980's). So I have chosen not to get an Irish passport because I see myself as British. So what is the problem.


> You're right in a sense that people with money can usually live where they want, even buy EU passports. Why when you used to have it for free.


Well should I answer. Oh go on then. My cousin is not rich. She is currently living in Canada and has to work hard to live there but enjoys it. She saved hard to go over there after studying and getting a Masters in Politics in London and working part time as a ticket sales person in Soho. Not everyone is rich that moves abroad needing a visa.


> A visa doesn't allow residency. It only gives visiting rights.


Wrong. You need a visa to enter one of the 33 countries to work as well. I know a psychiatric doctor friend of mine who is going through the visa process to go to New Zealand to live and work over there. BTW he feels and his family that the UK would be better off out of the EU.


> I fail to understand how anyone could be excited about the ending of FOM rights, but that doesn't apply to you.


That's ok then I won't answer to this bit


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So @stockwellcat. , I'm still wondering how ending freedom of movement will stop people coming to work and live in the UK - apparently one of the main reasons for Brexit - but won't affect us when we want to live and work in Europe.


They will need a visa. Tighter checks and right of refusal.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> They will need a visa. Tighter checks and right of refusal.


So aside from the visa, nothing we couldn't have done anyway then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> So aside from the visa, nothing we couldn't have done anyway then?


I am not getting involved in a debate on FOM. Sorry. But have a problem write to your MP and then see them vote for the withdrawal agreement or crash the UK out of the EU with no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Excuse me remainers I am watching the UK's PM on channel 232 Parliament Channel.

The House of Commons is deadly quiet.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> They will need a visa. Tighter checks and right of refusal.


Why won't that apply equally to us going the other way?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Well, certainly you will seeing you're eligible for an Irish/EU passport!
> 
> Otherwise your theory is rubbish as far as the average person in the street is concerned.
> 
> But you're right in a sense that people with money can usually live where they want, even buy EU passports.
> 
> Most of us wouldn't be able to afford that unless we won the lottery.
> 
> A visa doesn't allow residency. It only gives visiting rights. I guess that'll be fine for those who have holiday homes in, say Spain but many wish to make a permanent move. It'll be them who may encounter obstacles and may be forced to give up one Nationality in favour of another when they didn't have to before.
> 
> I fail to understand how anyone could be excited about the ending of FOM rights, but that doesn't apply to you.
> 
> You have a choice, most of us don't.


I'm what used to be describe as being an "impoverished English gentlewoman" and the reason I decided to settle in Hungary was because I couldn't afford to live in the UK without being heavily dependent on benefits. In the UK my pension wouldn't have been sufficient to pay the rent on a room in a shared house let alone pay for food and normal household bills, In Hungary because the cost of living in much lower I can afford to pay my way with no assistance and even afford to own two lovely dogs.

It seems to me you never bothered to read the link I posted so I've posted it again and you will see it is possible to move, live and work in another country if you want to!

https://east-legal.com/immigration-options-available-in-hungary-for-non-eu-citizens/


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I'm what used to be describe as being an "impoverished English gentlewoman" and the reason I decided to settle in Hungary was because I couldn't afford to live in the UK without being heavily dependent on benefits. In the UK my pension wouldn't have been sufficient to pay the rent on a room in a shared house let alone pay for food and normal household bills, In Hungary because the cost of living in much lower I can afford to pay my way with no assistance and even afford to own two lovely dogs.
> 
> It seems to me you never bothered to read the link I posted so I've posted it again and you will see it is possible to move, live and work in another country if you want to!
> 
> https://east-legal.com/immigration-options-available-in-hungary-for-non-eu-citizens/


It's certainly possible, but removing the right to Freedom of Movement is specifically designed to make it harder, isn't it? Otherwise, what's the point?


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> *Project Fear Summed Up*
> 
> View attachment 377703
> 
> View attachment 377704
> 
> View attachment 377705
> 
> View attachment 377706
> 
> View attachment 377707
> 
> 
> Mark Wallace
> 18:14 Monday July 30th 2018
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/opinion/brexit-project-fear-david-cameron/amp/


Spot on imo. All project fear does is either make people think the Eu has us over a (water) barrel and good riddance to them, or switches people off. The average Mrs Smith is unlikely to believe that some Russian conspiracy is afoot and brain washed them into a leave vote. I didn't understand why they tried to use fear tactics back then and I really don't understand why they're still at it today.


----------



## Elles

What might have worked is the government admitting that half the problems were down to them, but they’d rather try scaring people into voting remain. Telling people we’re going to run out of drinking water and being patronising, or making slurs on their character is never going to work.

Projects like the yellow B2B bus would have a lot more chance in my view. If you want to stop brexit, you need something people can come together over, not insults and derision.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Spot on.


That's what I thought when I read it and that was why I posted it. I got fed up with leavers being accused of project fear when the project fear campaign was and still is being done by remainers.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That's what I thought when I read it and that was why I posted it. I got fed up with leavers being accused of project fear when the project fear campaign was and still is being done by remainers.


The government are in full Project Fear mode, aren't they? Warning us against the No Deal option with shortages of food and medicine etc. They're not Remainers, are they?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the Government would be wouldn't they as the Cabinet is made up with mainly remainer MP's as the main leave supporting MP's left leaving the Cabinet mainly consisting of remainers.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The government are in full Project Fear mode, aren't they? Warning us against the No Deal option with shortages of food and medicine etc. They're not Remainers, are they?


Brexiteers resigned. It doesn't really matter who it is though imo. Do you think that it's a good thing for government bodies to try to frighten the public into doing what they want them to do, especially with worse case scenarios that are highly unlikely? Scenarios that can make people, especially the young, elderly, or vunlnerable, anxious, frightened and worried? Do you think that if they do, it's likely to work? I don't.


----------



## rona

OMG What's happening? I actually agreed with something Corbyn said


----------



## stockwellcat.

11th December 2018 has been confirmed as the date of the vote on the withdrawal bill. The Conservative Party Chief Whip has released this letter:








Remember the consequences of rejecting it remainers. If rejected the UK will be on 21 days notice to come up with another plan. These are the rules.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> OMG What's happening? I actually agreed with something Corbyn said


What are you converting? 

Sorry I only heard the statement from the PM and then switched over so didn't hear what Corbyn said or any of the other MP's.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> What are you converting?
> 
> Sorry I only heard the statement from the PM and then switched over so didn't hear what Corbyn said or any of the other MP's.


Just this little snippet ""Ploughing on is not stoic, it's an act of national self harm,"


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Just this little snippet ""Ploughing on is not stoic, it's an act of national self harm,"


I believe May needs to go. I am refraining to say anything else as I believe the UK should still leave the EU. :Muted


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the Government would be wouldn't they as the Cabinet is made up with mainly remainer MP's as the main leave supporting MP's left leaving the Cabinet mainly consisting of remainers.


If the government are Remainers, as you're implying, why are they pushing for May's Brexit deal?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Remember the consequences of rejecting it remainers. If rejected the UK will be on 21 days notice to come up with another plan. These are the rules.


??? Thought you said the alternative was no deal???

The more that reject May's deal the better, whichever side of the fence they're on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> ??? Thought you said the alternative was no deal???
> 
> The more that reject May's deal the better, whichever side of the fence they're on.
> 
> View attachment 377727


Well it is KittenKong. Follow the flow. The EU said it is no deal if it is rejected. How are Parliament going to come up with a new deal in 21 days? Christmas and New year holidays in between. The EU won't wait. MP's need a break after the vote on the 11th December 2018. 21 days takes us to 1st January 2019. They have made themselves clear the EU have.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Just this little snippet ""Ploughing on is not stoic, it's an act of national self harm,"


Here you are, you can listen to exactly what Jeremy said today ...

https://www.euronews.com/2018/11/26...eresa-may-addresses-parliament-on-brexit-deal


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Here you are, you can listen to exactly what Jeremy said today ...
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2018/11/26...eresa-may-addresses-parliament-on-brexit-deal


Do I have to? Stockwellcat pouts.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Do I have to? Stockwellcat pouts.


You can take that pout off your face young man. I was talking to Rona not you!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Brexiteers resigned. It doesn't really matter who it is though imo. Do you think that it's a good thing for government bodies to try to frighten the public into doing what they want them to do, especially with worse case scenarios that are highly unlikely? Scenarios that can make people, especially the young, elderly, or vunlnerable, anxious, frightened and worried? Do you think that if they do, it's likely to work? I don't.


I think it is right for us to listen to experts who detail a range of outcomes, whether those outcomes are good or bad. I think that in general it is best to quote the middle of the range that is calculated (where that word is appropriate) and not to concentrate on the worst case scenario, which is what Osborne did with his prediction of Brexit costs per family (even though that is actually proving pretty much on target at the moment.)

I think it is remarkably silly to dismiss warnings simply because they disagree with what one wants to believe and without any evidence that might disprove them.

Mostly, though, I just like facts, and I really don't like people making claims that are entirely unsupported by them, which is why I can sometimes be a bit picky over apparently unimportant comments.

Like the ERG / Minford economic projections, or the claims of people like Davis and Fox that everything is really easy and we hold all the cards and there is absolutely nothing to be concerned about.

Like (far less importantly) comments on here that it's only Remainers who indulge in Project Fear / Scaremongering when in plainly isn't. Or that the EU is "corrupt" when it is no different from any other organisation. Or that it is "protectionist" when comparison with other countries empirically proves differently. Or that removing Freedom of Movement is going to curb migration to the UK but will have absolutely no effect at all on UK citizens wanting to emigrate to the EU.

Discussion and debate is pointless if facts are simply ignored, dismissed for no reason, or made up.

Sorry; mini-rant!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You can take that pout off your face young man. I was talking to Rona not you!


Yes. But. But. I have to scroll past that post being tempted to watch it... :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You can take that pout off your face young man. I was talking to Rona not you!


 Well be like that then. :Hilarious I will just watch the Walking Dead on TV.

_I am only joking_


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Discussion and debate is pointless if facts are simply ignored, dismissed for no reason, or made up.


Well just like Joe Bloggs in the street people aren't interested when people preach at them day in and day out telling them they are wrong and this supposed expert said this and that supposed expert said that. People switch off. Get fed up.

Remainers have done nothing but stoke project fear into people because they didn't get their way.

Look what happens when a remainer PM tries to negotiate a deal to leave.


----------



## Elles

@Arnie83 So what fearmongering was employed by brexiteers about what would happen if we stay in? Turkey joining the Eu (shengen?) and swamping us with economic migrants from turkey and Africa maybe, the U.K. sinking under the weight, but I can't think of much else. They tend to concentrate on the fairytale life after we leave.

I can't be entirely sure but most of the warnings of Armageddon, no medicine, no drinking water, no nhs, no food, zombies (I mean Russians) eating our brains. All that's from Remain about leaving isn't it? Unless Leave has started it over TM's deal as well.

I think most Remainers had already made up their minds to stay in and weren't scared into it and most leavers had made up their minds to leave and weren't bribed into it. Changing minds with threats or promises doesn't seem to be working. I still say threatening people with unlikely, worse case scenarios and giving them nightmares is worse than promising them an unattainable utopia, we shouldn't be bombarded with either, but the former is more likely to make people more determined, not less and panic the vulnerable unnecessarily. I agree totally with the article SWC linked.

We seem to agree on its use and effectiveness though, whoever is saying what.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> @Arnie83 So what fearmongering was employed by brexiteers about what would happen if we stay in? Turkey joining the Eu (shengen?) and swamping us with economic migrants from turkey and Africa maybe, the U.K. sinking under the weight, but I can't think of much else. They tend to concentrate on the fairytale life after we leave.
> 
> I can't be entirely sure but most of the warnings of Armageddon, no medicine, no drinking water, no nhs, no food, zombies (I mean Russians) eating our brains. All that's from Remain about leaving isn't it? Unless Leave has started it over TM's deal as well.
> 
> I think most Remainers had already made up their minds to stay in and weren't scared into it and most leavers had made up their minds to leave and weren't bribed into it. Changing minds with threats or promises doesn't seem to be working. I still say threatening people with unlikely, worse case scenarios and giving them nightmares is worse than promising them an unattainable utopia, we shouldn't be bombarded with either, but the former is more likely to make people more determined, not less and panic the vulnerable unnecessarily. I agree totally with the article SWC linked.
> 
> We seem to agree on its use and effectiveness though, whoever is saying what.


The warnings about No Deal coming from the government cannot be put down to Remainers since they are advocating May's plan for Leaving.


----------



## Elles

You’ve confused me. Brexiteers don’t mind if there’s no deal don’t they, so why would they be warning about it? I can’t keep up lol. Aren’t Remainers saying that no deal would be the end of the world and they want a second referendum and to stay in? 

Anyway in my original post on this, I praised Remainers for changing tack and coming up with the yellow bus. That’s a lot better than them all quaking at the knees in terror ‘b.b.b.but we’re scared. We’re all going to die without the Eu’ which is what they were saying.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm past caring what happens now, the whole thing is doing my head in.:Banghead


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I'm past caring what happens now, the whole thing is doing my head in.:Banghead


But I do care. I don't want a second referendum to reaffirm the first one. I don't want to stay in. Like many other leave voters I want the UK to leave, the sooner the better


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> But I do care. I don't want a second referendum to reaffirm the first one. I don't want to stay in. Like many other leave voters I want the UK to leave, the sooner the better


What will happen will happen, there is nothing we can do about.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God, the lengths May will go to to keep her job.

This should be illegal.

Reported in the Daily Mail of all papers too.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eerages-Theresa-builds-votes-Brexit-deal.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, the lengths May will go to to keep her job.
> 
> This should be illegal.
> 
> Reported in the Daily Mail of all papers too.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eerages-Theresa-builds-votes-Brexit-deal.html
> 
> View attachment 377739


It is her job to.

Corbyn is offering Brexit to and I don't see you having a go at him.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, the lengths May will go to to keep her job.
> 
> This should be illegal.
> 
> Reported in the Daily Mail of all papers too.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eerages-Theresa-builds-votes-Brexit-deal.html
> 
> View attachment 377739


The Daily Mail is the source ? so what does the Guardian have to say ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> The Daily Mail is the source ? so what does the Guardian have to say ?


He should be as bad as May for a remainer.


















https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...taking-part-in-brexit-tv-debate-jeremy-corbyn

-----------
May's going to wipe the floor with Corbyn if he is only dicussing domestic policies at the Leaders Debate and nothing about Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The Daily Mail is the source ? so what does the Guardian have to say ?


No idea. If they reported it, it would probably be dismissed here as "fake news" anyway.

But the Theresa May loving Daily Mail? Incredible. They said she was the best thing since sliced bread the other day.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No idea. If they reported it, it would probably be dismissed here as "fake news" anyway.


Not dismissing what The Guardian has said. It is hillarious. Corbyn wants to discuss domestic issues at the debate. What about Brexit?


----------



## kimthecat

Even with bribery , I don't think she will get enough votes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Even with bribery , I don't think she will get enough votes.


But did you hear Corbyn. He wants Brexit to happen but wants the UK to remain in a customs union and the single market. The UK wouldn't be able to get it's own trade deals. He also seems to have ignored what the EU leaders said. The deal is non-negotiable. Yet Corbyn thinks he can re-negotiate it. He is lying.

Then we have the head to head leaders debate between Corbyn and May and Corbyn wants to discuss.... drum roll.... domestic issues and challenge May over her domestic policies. What about Brexit? Oh by the way the Government have indicated they want a prime time slot on TV to have the biggest audience watching. Watching Corbyn fail again? I cannot stand Labour at the moment from it's leader to everyone on the front benches and back benches. Shame as I did support labour from when I left school in 1991.

Corbyn is going to make Labour unelectable for at least another decade and disliked for not tackling Brexit at the leaders debate for the remainers.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It is her job to.
> 
> Corbyn is offering Brexit to and I don't see you having a go at him.


She is supposed to work in the best interests of this country. Her terrible deal does the exact opposite, even most of her own party admit as much - so shes resorts to bribery to get her own way - AGAIN! This is totally undemocratic. May is corrupt to the core.

More deflection. _Corbyn is offering Brexit to and I don't see you having a go at him_


----------



## noushka05

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 15h15 hours ago
This is important. Those areas most damaged and impoverished by Tory austerity are switching to Remain in large numbers. We now know Brexit will only make things worse. It would be wrong to proceed without informed consent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reas-eu-funds-migration-warwick-a8652341.html

/


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Even with bribery , I don't think she will get enough votes.


Doubt that very much.
Who's to say she isn't threatening them with their jobs if they don't toe the line?

This sort of thing has happened before with May forecasted to lose a crucial vote then suddenly winning it having, "Persuaded" critics to back her at the last minute. Party and probably their jobs before country as always.

But there's a chance defeat if Corbyn and Foster keep to their words by unanimously voting against.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You've confused me. Brexiteers don't mind if there's no deal don't they, so why would they be warning about it? I can't keep up lol. Aren't Remainers saying that no deal would be the end of the world and they want a second referendum and to stay in?
> 
> Anyway in my original post on this, I praised Remainers for changing tack and coming up with the yellow bus. That's a lot better than them all quaking at the knees in terror 'b.b.b.but we're scared. We're all going to die without the Eu' which is what they were saying.


The more extreme Brexiteers don't mind if there's a No Deal; the sensible ones concede that it would be the worst result for the country's people. The worst cast scenario stories are being put out by Remainers and moderate Brexiteers partly as a warning (by both sides) and partly to suggest May's deal is a comparatively much better bet in an attempt to get people to vote for it.

Your second bit is of course an exaggeration which (you've started me off now!) has been another diversionary tactic. Exaggerate what has been said in order to ridicule it. Viz: claiming that the Remain side said the EU won't trade with us any more, or that WWIII would result, neither of which were ever said. Probably enough though, I think!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 15h15 hours ago
> This is important. Those areas most damaged and impoverished by Tory austerity are switching to Remain in large numbers. We now know Brexit will only make things worse. It would be wrong to proceed without informed consent.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...reas-eu-funds-migration-warwick-a8652341.html
> 
> /


Does Lammy have research to show the "large numbers" or is this another of those "people I speak to" jobbies?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, the lengths May will go to to keep her job.
> 
> This should be illegal.
> 
> Reported in the Daily Mail of all papers too.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eerages-Theresa-builds-votes-Brexit-deal.html
> 
> View attachment 377739


Did you see this KK? Dave is SO good at lampooning this shambolic government with his razor sharp wit Hes always got his finger on the pulse.

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider Nov 25
When you've blown £1bn and a knighthood on Black Friday and end up with a load of useless tat.





















Arnie83 said:


> Does Lammy have research to show the "large numbers" or is this another of those "people I speak to" jobbies?


Its based on research Arnie. Have you miss the link I included?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377768


That's actually quite funny


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377768


Spot on!

This article explains tory 'doublespeak'.

*Dishonest ways of being dishonest: an exploration of Conservative euphemisms*

*https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2...st-an-exploration-of-conservative-euphemisms/*


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I'm past caring what happens now, the whole thing is doing my head in.:Banghead


Is this how you feel?

*the dailymash*
Tuesday, 27th November

*Britons confirm they'll vote for anything as long as they never hear the word 'Brexit' again*
21st November 2018








Ads by Kiosked


*Get Daily Mash headlines:* 

*EVERYONE in Britain has confirmed they will happily vote for absolutely anything as long as they do not have to ever hear the word 'Brexit' ever again.*

The Institute for Studies found that whether they had voted Leave or Remain, banishing the word 'Brexit' from the language was now the biggest priority.

Annoyed man, Tom Booker said: "I'd vote for Idi Amin if it just meant I didn't have to hear Brexit ever, and I mean ever, a-****ing-gain.

"Not even in a historical context either. If some history teacher wants to talk about Brexit they can just say, 'that two year bout of constipation'. I'm pretty sure the kids would get what they meant."

Annoyed woman, Nikki Hollis added: "At least change the name of it. It was a made up name to begin with anyway. Just make up another one. Like 'shandwhich'."

"Brexit is Britain's Exit and shandwich is shit sandwich. Same thing."


----------



## noushka05

*Sam Coates Times*‏Verified account @SamCoatesTimes
TRUMP SAYS BREXIT DEAL SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD DEAL FOR THE EU TRUMP SAYS BREXIT AGREEMENT AS IT STANDS MEANS THE UK MAY NOT BE ABLE TO TRADE WITH THE U.S. - Reuters

:Hilarious


----------



## Jonescat

Interesting snippet - while the idiots monopolise the headlines and probably achieve nothing but their 15 mins of fame, it appears some of the committees are actually doing some work to mitigate the damage - "The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Efra) Committee concluded the government's agriculture bill must be amended to ensure goods meet current rules for production, animal welfare and the environment."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...orine-chicken-michael-gove-efra-a8653171.html


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The more extreme Brexiteers don't mind if there's a No Deal; the sensible ones concede that it would be the worst result for the country's people. The worst cast scenario stories are being put out by Remainers and moderate Brexiteers partly as a warning (by both sides) and partly to suggest May's deal is a comparatively much better bet in an attempt to get people to vote for it.
> 
> Your second bit is of course an exaggeration which (you've started me off now!) has been another diversionary tactic. Exaggerate what has been said in order to ridicule it. Viz: claiming that the Remain side said the EU won't trade with us any more, or that WWIII would result, neither of which were ever said. Probably enough though, I think!


I said the yellow bus is better than fearmongering, with a jokey example of what fearmongering is and does. Don't you think that people are more likely to get behind something like the yellow bus, than believe that Russians influenced Facebook and they listened to it and voted accordingly, or that if we end up with no deal we'll have no drinking water?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I said the yellow bus is better than fearmongering, with a jokey example of what fearmongering is and does. Don't you think that people are more likely to get behind something like the yellow bus, than believe that Russians influenced Facebook and they listened to it and voted accordingly, or that if we end up with no deal we'll have no drinking water?


The bigger problem is when serious warnings get lost amongst the hyperbole and dismissed as fearmongering.

I work in the water industry. The risk is real. Can't say more (probably shouldn't have said this much, but heigh ho).


----------



## Elles

The crying wolf @Jesthar ? That was the main point in the article linked that I was replying to. We aren't going to end up with no drinking water. If there's a delay on chemicals at Dover, there'll have to be temporary restrictions, or they'll have to use other ports, as the other ports have already suggested. I won't end up with no clean water. It's heaving it down and we have a stream, well and water butts. If it's a real concern, then advise people on it, telling them there'll be no water isn't exactly helpful and would be a failure of government, not a result of voting leave. They knew we voted leave 2 years ago.

If we have no water and medicine and treatment plants grind to a halt, dysentery that Noushka mentioned would be a real risk. If leaving the Eu goes that far, then a trading union with Europe would look to have way too much influence. It's looking as though a power in Europe could cripple us if they want to, we've made it way too easy and playing straight into extremist's hands imo.


----------



## Jesthar

*IF* there are problems it will, as you say, be wholly down to a failure of our government and not the fault of the EU, though I'm sure the politicos will try and frame the EU. With only months to go, we still have no idea what things will look like when the two years are up, and until that is known no business can make any effective plans for the future.

Nearest parallel I can think of is the snowplough argument - do businesses spend millions on equipment for coping with a potentially extreme scenario which may never happen, or take a more measured approach and hope things don't get too bad.

Anyway, I'm glad you will be OK. I'm glad I live in the countryside, not the city, too!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Its based on research Arnie. Have you miss the link I included?


I did manage to miss the link, yes! Very interesting. Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*LIVE: Brexit vote 'difficult' as Leave goes on the attack*
*







*

Nigel Farage reveals new campaign declaring it 'the worst deal in history'

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-goes-on-tour-as-she-tries-to-sell-brexit-deal-11564792


----------



## Elles

Picardo on Gibraltar, Theresa May, the Deal and Spain. 26 November.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The crying wolf @Jesthar ? That was the main point in the article linked that I was replying to. We aren't going to end up with no drinking water. If there's a delay on chemicals at Dover, there'll have to be temporary restrictions, or they'll have to use other ports, as the other ports have already suggested. I won't end up with no clean water. It's heaving it down and we have a stream, well and water butts. If it's a real concern, then advise people on it, telling them there'll be no water isn't exactly helpful and would be a failure of government, not a result of voting leave. They knew we voted leave 2 years ago.
> 
> If we have no water and medicine and treatment plants grind to a halt, dysentery that Noushka mentioned would be a real risk. If leaving the Eu goes that far, then a trading union with Europe would look to have way too much influence. It's looking as though a power in Europe could cripple us if they want to, we've made it way too easy and playing straight into extremist's hands imo.


Interesting articles related to water shortage .....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-brink-how-cape-town-cracked-its-water-crisis

http://time.com/cape-town-south-africa-water-crisis/


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 3h3 hours ago
Theresa May's right. The country is heading for a bright, optimistic future, as long as by 'bright, optimistic future' you mean being £100bn worse off or about £1090 a year per person.

*Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' a year by 2030*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46338585

*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 16h16 hours ago
David Schneider Retweeted Gordon Rayner

Damn! Just when I was looking forward to my local NHS hospital being owned by American venture capitalists and eating chicken washed in a swimming pool


_BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US_



Elles said:


> The crying wolf @Jesthar ? That was the main point in the article linked that I was replying to. We aren't going to end up with no drinking water. If there's a delay on chemicals at Dover, there'll have to be temporary restrictions, or they'll have to use other ports, as the other ports have already suggested. I won't end up with no clean water. It's heaving it down and we have a stream, well and water butts. If it's a real concern, then advise people on it, telling them there'll be no water isn't exactly helpful and would be a failure of government, not a result of voting leave. They knew we voted leave 2 years ago.
> 
> If we have no water and medicine and treatment plants grind to a halt, dysentery that Noushka mentioned would be a real risk. If leaving the Eu goes that far, then a trading union with Europe would look to have way too much influence. It's looking as though a power in Europe could cripple us if they want to, we've made it way too easy and playing straight into extremist's hands imo.


If we crash out - everything ends on the April 1st and we become a third country. You cant seriously pin the blame on the EU for protecting its borders, tariffs & regulatory system from a third country Elles. The EU has been clear from day one it could not undermine its key principles, we've known this from the beginning - and we should not expect then to undermine them!. 
So when medicines, food and water purification run short it wont be because the EU are punishing us, its because we'll no longer be in the CU/SM, ECJ, EMA, Euratom and so on. And the blame will lie entirely at the door of a shambolic, dishonest government who have put party before country and has trashed our country's reputation!.

Real extremists are in the tory party. These dangerous individuals *welcome* chaos & suffering no deal will bring. For all its faults the EU has protected us from the very worst of their ideology, This is why the neoliberal extremists loathe the EU with all its 'red tape' and 'regulations'. TTIP on roids awaits us. If you think the EU is bad wait till the disaster capitalists move in

Have you thought about the millions of people who are not as fortunate as yourself who don't have access to fresh water? Who are too poor to buy enough food now? - never mind medicines! They will suffer the most. Mays deal or no deal will push countless more vulnerable people to the brink. Well not in my name!

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

At least one person in Cabinet and Parliament listened to what the EU leaders said.


----------



## noushka05

*Keir Starmer*‏Verified account @Keir_Starmer
My letter to David Lidington demanding publication of the government's full legal advice on its Brexit deal in the next two days. Parliament is entitled to know full legal implications of what the Prime Minister has signed up to. Full transparency and rigorous scrutiny essential.


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy
David Lidington (@DLidington) on @BBCr4today repeats the "control our money, laws and borders" trope. 
All three are false.

But NO challenge from the @BBC yet again.

BBC are hopeless.

.........................................................

I love Caroline. If only all politicians had her integrity, were as decent, honest & courageous as she is we wouldn't be in this brexit mess and we wouldn;t be racing towards armaggeddon. She genuinely cares about the future of our youngsters - and speaking anecdotally, many of them know she does.

*Femi*‏ @Femi_Sorry 2h2 hours ago
*Thank you @CarolineLucas for caring about young people's futures and coming to discuss the People's Vote with us! @OFOCBrexit #ParliamentTakeover*

.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 3h3 hours ago
> Theresa May's right. The country is heading for a bright, optimistic future, as long as by 'bright, optimistic future' you mean being £100bn worse off or about £1090 a year per person.
> 
> *Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' a year by 2030*
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46338585
> 
> *David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 16h16 hours ago
> David Schneider Retweeted Gordon Rayner
> 
> Damn! Just when I was looking forward to my local NHS hospital being owned by American venture capitalists and eating chicken washed in a swimming pool
> 
> 
> _BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US_
> 
> If we crash out - everything ends on the April 1st and we become a third country. You cant seriously pin the blame on the EU for protecting its borders, tariffs & regulatory system from a third country Elles. The EU has been clear from day one it could not undermine its key principles, we've known this from the beginning - and we should not expect then to undermine them!.
> So when medicines, food and water purification run short it wont be because the EU are punishing us, its because we'll no longer be in the CU/SM, ECJ, EMA, Euratom and so on. And the blame will lie entirely at the door of a shambolic, dishonest government who have put party before country and has trashed our country's reputation!.
> 
> Real extremists are in the tory party. These dangerous individuals *welcome* chaos & suffering no deal will bring. For all its faults the EU has protected us from the very worst of their ideology, This is why the neoliberal extremists loathe the EU with all its 'red tape' and 'regulations'. TTIP on roids awaits us. If you think the EU is bad wait till the disaster capitalists move in
> 
> Have you thought about the millions of people who are not as fortunate as yourself who don't have access to fresh water? Who are too poor to buy enough food now? - never mind medicines! They will suffer the most. Mays deal or no deal will push countless more vulnerable people to the brink. Well not in my name!
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


And where exactly did I say I'd blame the Eu for it? It didn't fall in my lap, I didn't win the lottery. I rent for less than £25 a week, somewhere that has a natural water supply, because I have a horse. The horse did fall into my lap. I took her on when my friend suffered a stroke and could no longer look after her. I don't doubt that the whole village will use it if it comes to it. We already use it, as do travellers passing through.

I've given up caring about millions of people I don't know. They probably voted for it.

I said that the fearmongering and worse case scenarios could give the extremists ammunition and have the opposite effect, as per the article linked and that I agree instead with the yellow bus type of thing. I'd like to see something that brings people together, not tries to terrify them into submission. By extremists I'm not talking about our government, I'm talking about the real brexit extremists.

If you still insist that there'll be no water after brexit and medicines won't get through, best we leave now, sort it out and not be so reliant on other countries for our wellbeing? That's what will be said. Our government have had time to sort out the logistics. They say they have done so. If they haven't, if we're blaming, then they are to blame.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU Judges have dismissed the first court case being heard today.


----------



## MilleD

This thread just feels like a Twitter replacement at the moment. I avoid it for a reason. Guess I'll have to avoid this thread too.

@noushka05 , everyone knows you should never wash chicken before you cook it, swimming pool or otherwise


----------



## stockwellcat.

Update on the main court case being heard today. EU Lawyer warns allowing the UK to unilaterally halt the Brexit process could lead to disaster.


----------



## Elles

Labour are hopeless. They want a general election and to go back to the Eu to renegotiate. There's no time, the Eu said it wouldn't and Corbyn wants to brexit more than Theresa May does. They're like a bad joke imo.

The court case in @stockwellcat. 's post is probably one I read about being fast tracked. There are a couple of cases being heard at the moment about calling it off, because apparently the law (and article 50) isn't clear about whether we can reverse the decision and stay in the Eu anyway.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Interesting articles related to water shortage .....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-brink-how-cape-town-cracked-its-water-crisis
> 
> http://time.com/cape-town-south-africa-water-crisis/


Interesting stuff. Water shortage in general isn't likely to be a problem (electricity shortages notwithstading) for the UK, though. At the moment, all UK mains water is fit to drink and cook with, but could be downgraded in a crisis to external use only, so drinking/cooking water would be the main concern.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> At least one person in Cabinet and Parliament listened to what the EU leaders said.
> View attachment 377791
> 
> View attachment 377792


I can't see any meaningful change in the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement being at all likely, so going back and asking for it doesn't seem viable.

An extension to A50, though, is a different matter. We could go for a Norway option, or hold an Genera Election, or a referendum on the options. The EU are hardly likely to refuse a limited extension while that happened, and that's ignoring the possibility that the ECJ deems A50 unilaterally revocable.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> This thread just feels like a Twitter replacement at the moment. I avoid it for a reason. Guess I'll have to avoid this thread too.
> 
> @noushka05 , everyone knows you should never wash chicken before you cook it, swimming pool or otherwise


I promise to go easy on the tweets ( unless its something extra important).

I can't make my mind up if you're being serious or joking about the chicken? Are you joking?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Labour are hopeless. They want a general election and to go back to the Eu to renegotiate. There's no time, the Eu said it wouldn't and Corbyn wants to brexit more than Theresa May does. They're like a bad joke imo.


Well after being pointed to the Guardian article by @kimthecat last night and reading Labour want to discuss domestic issues and Theresa May's domestic policies in the Leaders debate I couldn't stop laughing at the thought of it. The UK is on the verge of Brexit and Corbyn is not interested in having a debate over it. I am imagining how well the leaders debate will go as at the moment all other party leaders aren't allowed to attend and no brexitier or pv supporting members are allowed to speak. Corbyn wants it head to head with May no one else. The Government want it on Prime Time TV to maximis the viewing. Corbyn is so rubbish as an opposition leader.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see any meaningful change in the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement being at all likely, so going back and asking for it doesn't seem viable.
> 
> An extension to A50, though, is a different matter. We could go for a Norway option, or hold an Genera Election, or a referendum on the options. The EU are hardly likely to refuse a limited extension while that happened, and that's ignoring the possibility that the ECJ deems A50 unilaterally revocable.


We can still revoke A50 Arnie 

ETA Your MP may not realise. You can customise this template to let them know - https://goodlawproject.org/article-50-case/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see any meaningful change in the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement being at all likely, so going back and asking for it doesn't seem viable.
> 
> An extension to A50, though, is a different matter. We could go for a Norway option, or hold an Genera Election, or a referendum on the options. The EU are hardly likely to refuse a limited extension while that happened, and that's ignoring the possibility that the ECJ deems A50 unilaterally revocable.


Thr ECJ will more than likely dismiss the case. But we will see later.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We can still revoke A50 Arnie


Not without the EU leaders consent you can't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see any meaningful change in the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement being at all likely, so going back and asking for it doesn't seem viable.
> 
> An extension to A50, though, is a different matter. We could go for a Norway option, or hold an Genera Election, or a referendum on the options. The EU are hardly likely to refuse a limited extension while that happened, and that's ignoring the possibility that the ECJ deems A50 unilaterally revocable.


Article 50 can only be extended once for a limited time EU Leaders have been saying for only up to 2 to 3 months I do believe they have said.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Very important bit to the court case on article 50 at the moment. Are you paying attention @Arnie83 and @noushka05










I don't think Germany, France, Spain etc are in the mood to say yes you can withdraw article 50, do you?


----------



## noushka05

lol


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU Judges have dismissed the first court case being heard today.
> retired
> View attachment 377797


I didn't have a vote because I've lived outside the UK for more than 15 years. There are lots of other things as a non UK Resident I'm not allowed - like opening a bank account.

I don't regard it as unfair after all I was the one who decided to live in another country.

One of the reasons I came back to Europe was because in South Africa as well as Canada, New Zealand and Australia the British State Pension is frozen at the date you first receive it whereas living in an EU country it increases annually in line with UK State pensions.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-05/british-retirees-watch-frozen-pensions-disappear/8161786

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/SN01457.pdf

The policy has been subject to legal challenge. The case was heard by the European Court of Human Rights' Grand Chamber in September 2009 and the Court's judgment of March 2010 was in the UK Government's favour.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> t's looking as though a power in Europe could cripple us if they want to, we've made it way too easy and playing straight into extremist's hands imo.





Elles said:


> It's looking as though a power in Europe could cripple us if they want to, we've made it way too easy and playing straight into extremist's hands imo.





Elles said:


> didn't fall in my lap, I didn't win the lottery. I rent for less than £25 a week, somewhere that has a natural water supply, because I have a horse. The horse did fall into my lap. I took her on when my friend suffered a stroke and could no longer look after her. I don't doubt that the whole village will use it if it comes to it. We already use it, as do travellers passing through.


'You're very lucky Elles. Many people are paying extortionate rents so have to rely on foodbanks to feed themselves. Not that you care if the sentence below is anything to go by  ..............



Elles said:


> iven up caring about millions of people I don't know. They probably voted for it.


You are arguing for it yet have no sympathy for those who voted for it? wow. Even if they did vote for it, many were duped by the lies spun by the leave campaign! Do they deserve to suffer because they were duped into voting against their own interests?!



Elles said:


> I said that the fearmongering and worse case scenarios could give the extremists ammunition and have the opposite effect, as per the article linked and that I agree instead with the yellow bus type of thing. I'd like to see something that brings people together, not tries to terrify them into submission


What is a yellow bus type of thing? I don't know what you're referring to.


Elles said:


> y extremists I'm not talking about our government, I'm talking about the real brexit extremists.


You dont think disaster capitalists are extremists?



Elles said:


> If you still insist that there'll be no water after brexit and medicines won't get through, best we leave now, sort it out and not be so reliant on other countries for our wellbeing? That's what will be said. Our government have had time to sort out the logistics. They say they have done so. If they haven't, if we're blaming, then they are to blame.


I dont insist anything. Some items cannot be stockpiled due to short shelf life - that's one of the realities we face should we crash out. It isnt a case of 'relying' - we were part of a collaboration. In case you hadnt noticed our government is as inept as it is morally bankrupt. Peoples lives are at stake. Innocent childrens lives Elles! They didn't get a vote - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/so-its-this-or-death-cheers-bhqnmn79s

...........................


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The ECJ will more than likely dismiss the case.


What do you base that on?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Article 50 can only be extended once for a limited time EU Leaders have been saying for only up to 2 to 3 months I do believe they have said.


As I said last time you mentioned this, it is the Transition Period that the EU said they could extend, not Article 50. The Withdrawal Agreement allows for its extension up to "31 December 20XX".

We haven't asked them to extend A50 yet, though they would probably say yes if it was for a different deal rather than an attempted renegotiation of the current one.

They would probably also agree to extend it if it was to make hasty arrangement for a No Deal Brexit, too, so that at least some planning could be done before we crashed out.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Very important bit to the court case on article 50 at the moment. Are you paying attention @Arnie83 and @noushka05
> 
> View attachment 377801
> 
> 
> I don't think Germany, France, Spain etc are in the mood to say yes you can withdraw article 50, do you?


Yes, actually. For billions of reasons, and also because the EU is much more powerful both in terms of trade and politics with the UK in it.


----------



## Elles

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-bus-to-tour-constituencies-of-may-and-corbyn

The yellow bus

@noushka05 to make sure you don't miss it.


----------



## Elles

I paid extortionate rents to a scum landlord for a basement bedsit. I’ve slept in public toilets. There weren’t any food banks. You wind me up, saying that I’ve said all kinds of things I haven’t, when I’m actually supporting you, so stuff it. 

I no longer give a damn.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I paid extortionate rents to a scum landlord for a basement bedsit. I've slept in public toilets. There weren't any food banks. You wind me up, saying that I've said all kinds of things I haven't, when I'm actually supporting you, so stuff it.
> 
> I no longer give a damn.


Stay put. :Chicken
Don't go anywhere. We will meet at maternity ward soon anyhow!!! I don't fancy a fallout there!!!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> There weren't any food banks.


That's quite right. I have said already that more people are using food banks because, in short, there are more to use (as you say, at one time there were none). People are more aware of the total obscenity of ditching good edible food when someone else could use it.


----------



## Elles

Innocent children's lives are at stake! That's like saying think of the kittens. I'm sorry @noushka05 , but you obviously haven't read the article linked that I've been discussing. I'll see if I can find it and repost it. I'm saying that extremist brexiteers, not the government no, the extreme racists and xenophobes that are linked to EDL for example, will use the fearmongering to say how the Eu has us over a barrel and we need to leave it ASAP.

It didn't work before the referendum as the article pointed out, so why is it being used now. I have nowhere blamed the Eu for it, even in the post you quote I clearly blame our own government for any failings. Yet you're using it to have a rant at me about poor people and food banks!


----------



## Britt

I vote for a Mayxit. I know I sound like a broken record but I think she should go.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Britt said:


> I vote for a Mayxit. I know I sound like a broken record but I think she should go.


But who then do you think should replace her?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I paid extortionate rents to a scum landlord for a basement bedsit. I've slept in public toilets. There weren't any food banks. You wind me up, saying that I've said all kinds of things I haven't, when I'm actually supporting you, so stuff it.
> 
> I no longer give a damn.


I'm not trying to wind you up. Im simply responding to your points Elles. I dont see what else could you mean by this?


Elles said:


> I've given up caring about millions of people I don't know. They probably voted for it





Calvine said:


> That's quite right. I have said already that more people are using food banks because, in short, there are more to use (as you say, at one time there were none). People are more aware of the total obscenity of ditching good edible food when someone else could use it.


The UN investigation concluded the foodbank crisis, the homelessness crisis the spiralling poverty is down to the tories cruel ideological austerity Calvine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063707336936701952
And labours Clive Lewis on Question Time -

_In the last 8 years the Tories have inflicted social disaster on the UK in the name of austerity, and they can no longer blame an economic crash that affected the entire globe a decade ago. We must act now to protect the most vulnerable people in our society. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066068056005373952
,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I'm not trying to wind you up. Im simply responding to your points Elles. I dont see what else could you mean by this?
> 
> The UN investigation concluded the foodbank crisis, the homelessness crisis the spiralling poverty is down to the tories cruel ideological austerity Calvine.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063707336936701952
> And labours Clive Lewis on Question Time -
> 
> _In the last 8 years the Tories have inflicted social disaster on the UK in the name of austerity, and they can no longer blame an economic crash that affected the entire globe a decade ago. We must act now to protect the most vulnerable people in our society. _
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1066068056005373952
> ,,


Sorry can I say something. I don't want to get involved in this. But what has this got to do with Brexit?

Homelessness was on the increase before the Referendum due to benefit cuts, people losing their jobs, people relying on food banks etc. What has this got to do with Brexit? What links it to Brexit?

Stockwellcat goes and hides back under his tinfoil hat.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This link might interest you @noushka05:

*EU AUSTERITY MEASURES DRIVING MILLIONS INTO POVERTY*
http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-measures-driving-millions-into-poverty/


----------



## Elles

We've just had the discussion about austerity and the Eu @stockwellcat. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> We've just had the discussion about austerity and the Eu @stockwellcat. :Hilarious


Stockwellcat ducks back out of this. Whoops. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Britt said:


> I vote for a Mayxit. I know I sound like a broken record but I think she should go.


 I wish Brussels would intervene and evict the lot of them out of Westminster, bar a few exceptions.

The UK government and its so called opposition leadership are incapable of running the UK.

Wish the EU had the power to do that.


----------



## rona

This country is so bad that refugees from the EU mainland are risking their lives to get here 

All those choices, 26 countries and they still want to come here


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I wish Brussels would intervene and evict the lot of them out of Westminster, bar a few exceptions.
> 
> The UK government and its so called opposition leadership are incapable of running the UK.
> 
> Wish the EU had the power to do that.


How can Brussels intervene as they have no say over internal politics of any European country? They stood by and watched what happened in Spain/Catalonia earlier this year and what happened in France over the weekend.


----------



## westie~ma

I'm confused. 

Constantly hearing different people contradicting each other over what May's deal will allow and won't allow. 

Trump chiming in now. 

Not sure what/who to believe/listen to anymore.

I was following it and understanding but this week I'm completely confused.


----------



## kimthecat

Just totally fed up and sick of it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Leave voters don't like the deal because it keeps the UK tied to the EU with a backstop date of 20xx (no end date) and various other reasons.

Remain voters don't like it because they want a Peoples Vote or Second Referendum and said they would reject any deal May came back with.

The EU leaders have warned Parliament that if the deal is voted down it would be no deal. They also said the deal/withdrawal agreement on the table is non-negotiable. Labour is promising to re-negotiate it when it isn't open for re-negotiation and so are the brexitier MP's.

If voted down the UK will have 21 days to come up with a new deal, referendum, general election. But here is the snag. 21 days after Parliament votes on the 11th December 2018 runs out on the 1st January 2019. MP's finish for Christmas and New Year the week after the vote.

Time is short. Very short.

May is trying to drum up support for her deal. Whilst Corbyn wants to have a TV debate whoch May agreed to but he wants to discuss domestic issues and Mays domestic policies not Brexit. He wants a head to head debate with May. No other party leaders. No Brexit Supporters. No Remain Supporters.


----------



## Magyarmum

On tonight's Euronews Rather alarmingly it says the decision is expected to be given sooner than the 3 to 6 month it normally takes!

https://www.euronews.com/video/2018/11/27/eu-top-court-examines-reversibility-of-brexit


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> On tonight's Euronews Rather alarmingly it says the decision is expected to be given sooner than the 3 to 6 month it normally takes!
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/video/2018/11/27/eu-top-court-examines-reversibility-of-brexit


It will certainly be an interesting one.


----------



## Arnie83

At risk of making @KittenKong and @noushka05 spontaneously combust ...

*Fresh row looms as No 10 refuses to publish full Brexit legal advice*
*Refusal - despite unanimous resolution by Commons - is unacceptable, says Labour*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ll-brexit-legal-advice?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

So much for a sovereign Parliament!


----------



## noushka05

westie~ma said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Constantly hearing different people contradicting each other over what May's deal will allow and won't allow.
> 
> Trump chiming in now.
> 
> Not sure what/who to believe/listen to anymore.
> 
> I was following it and understanding but this week I'm completely confused.


Femi is very informed and he explains clearly and concisely how bad Mays deal is & why it looks like being voted down @westie~ma -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1062419057117421570


Arnie83 said:


> At risk of making @KittenKong and @noushka05 spontaneously combust ...
> 
> *Fresh row looms as No 10 refuses to publish full Brexit legal advice*
> *Refusal - despite unanimous resolution by Commons - is unacceptable, says Labour*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ll-brexit-legal-advice?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> So much for a sovereign Parliament!


 Grrrrrrrrr


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Remain voters don't like it because they want a Peoples Vote or Second Referendum and said they would reject any deal May came back with.


Remainers don't like it because its a dreadful deal, as it could only ever be thanks to her stupid 'red lines'..


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Remainers don't like it because its a dreadful deal, as it could only ever be thanks to her stupid 'red lines'..


Be honest @noushka05 remainers where going to dislike it anyway and reject it. Stop trying to say otherwise. Remainers want a second referendum or peoples vote so would reject any deal that May came back with even if it kept the UK closely to the EU.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Be honest @noushka05 remainers where going to dislike it anyway and reject it. Stop trying to say otherwise. Remainers want a second referendum or peoples vote so would reject any deal that May came back with even if it kept the UK closely to the EU.


How rude Remainers were going to reject it because we knew it was going to be rubbish - we could never have a better deal than we have now, whatever she came back with would be damaging. Those who promised us we would be better off are serial liars.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How rude Remainers were going to reject it because we knew it was going to be rubbish - we could never have a better deal than we have now, whatever she came back with would be damaging. Those who promised us we would be better off are serial liars.


 How is it rude? You just admitted in a paragraph that remainers where going to reject it anyway. :Hilarious

Not everyone was taken in by the newspaper headlines, TV debates, news on TV and campaigners in the streets. Alot of people had already made their minds up. It is sad you are still in the mind set that everyone was zombifed when casting their votes that voted leave and couldn't actually make their own minds up.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> How is it rude? You just admitted in a paragraph that remainers where going to reject it anyway. :Hilarious
> p.


Groan. It could only ever be a bad deal. Thats why we want a peoples vote.

And as remoaners tried to explain - any deal the tories came up with would be a bad deal- and here we are.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> At risk of making @KittenKong and @noushka05 spontaneously combust ...
> 
> *Fresh row looms as No 10 refuses to publish full Brexit legal advice*
> *Refusal - despite unanimous resolution by Commons - is unacceptable, says Labour*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ll-brexit-legal-advice?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> So much for a sovereign Parliament!


Kier Starmer has said labour are going to use all the mechanisms available to force this information to be published. If they cant force this, what does that say about our democracy?


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Kier Starmer has said labour are going to use all the mechanisms available to force this information to be published. If they cant force this, what does that say about our democracy?


Then it should be distributed illegally of course.

This way publicity guaranteed.

Sorry Britain but you cannot trust those who are elected to act in your name.

This how revolutions start...

And coups....

Government is incapable of governance and all three biggest parties are split and inefficient.

Time for King Arthur.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Then it should be distributed illegally of course.
> This way publicity guaranteed.
> Sorry Britain but you cannot trust those who are elected to act in your name.
> This how revolutions start...
> And coups....
> Government is incapable of governance and all three biggest parties are split and inefficient.
> *Time for King Arthur.*


I've been thinking the same.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I still wonder, really do if Merkel knowing pretty well that Britain neither likes to do what Germany tells them nor is keen on more asylum seekers ( as far as the mood of the people) and she pressed the right buttons.
At the very run up to referendum she came up with her quota. 
UKIP jumped on it like a vulture.
Britain being the only country that could in EU balance the Germany’s influence and had support from Poland, Hungary and few others.

Now Germany has practical hegemony in EU and Britain has no say whatsoever.

This is what grieves me ( and some peace old Tory Lion) .

Nothing against Germans but EU be out of balance.

Old imperial dream revived?

Wonder if Germany will actually want us to Remain?

Just talking...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377838


Is that supposed to be, "Good Brexit News"?

" Agreement falls short of current EU arrangements....."

This is what I can't understand. Whatever people think of the EU, wouldn't the Brexiter government be looking at better than the current EU arrangements? This was, after all promised during the leave campaign!

I would be itching for the same, if not better.

Oh yes, Football's not coming home (Quoting the Three Lions song), but looks like many UK people may be forced to....


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Kier Starmer has said labour are going to use all the mechanisms available to force this information to be published. If they cant force this, what does that say about our democracy?


Just hope they keep their word about voting against May's deal.

Some uncomfortable rumours going about that Corbyn may whip his MPs to abstain, rather than vote against May's deal. That of course gives it the go-ahead as it would pass no problem.

Of course, this could be another attempted smear against Corbyn, bit I sometimes wonder what's a smear and what's the truth with him nowadays.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Just hope they keep their word about voting against May's deal.
> 
> Some uncomfortable rumours going about that Corbyn may whip his MPs to abstain, rather than vote against May's deal. That of course gives it the go-ahead as it would pass no problem.
> 
> Of course, this could be another attempted smear against Corbyn, bit I sometimes wonder what's a smear and what's the truth with him nowadays.


Corbyn whipped them to pass Article 50, he can whip them again and Labour has not enough gumption to rebel.

Corbyn is one of the reasons we actually have Brexit!!!

Most Labour campaigned for Remain!!!
He sabotaged it!!!

All he ever wanted is next election and becoming PM.
Hang him with the rest....


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Corbyn whipped them to pass Article 50, he can whip them again and Labour has not enough gumption to rebel.
> 
> Most Labour campaigned for Remain!!!
> He sabotaged it!!!
> 
> All he ever wanted is next election and becoming PM.
> *Hang him with the rest*....


60 per cent of Labour supporters voted leave. That is what counts.

You are suggesting violence against the Labour leader out of desperation. I'd be careful posting that I have hi-lighted in bold.

Corbyn accepted the result of the referendum and the majority of MP's in Parliament agreed to accept the referendum result and implement it including article 50.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> 60 per cent of Labour supporters voted leave. That is what counts.
> 
> You are suggesting violence against the Labour leader out of desperation. I'd be careful posting that I have hi-lighted in bold.
> 
> Corbyn accepted the result of the referendum and the majority of MP's in Parliament agreed to accept the referendum result and implement it including article 50.


:Hilarious

There was nothing in Cheeky's post that suggested any violence towards Jeremy Corbyn! The use of the word, "Whip" relates to the three line one, it's the historic terms that are violent. Time for the UK to move forward into the 21st century, not hawk back to the 19th....

Seen a nice template for a billboard poster of the future. I'd change the top line to, "I will govern in your national interests" but keep the bottom bit, except to demand obedience....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> There was nothing in Cheeky's post that suggested any violence towards Jeremy Corbyn!


@cheekyscrip said


> *Hang him* with the rest....


in post 4849


----------



## Arnie83

From a live Sky News interview with Philip Hammond a few minutes ago ...

Brexit will mean a 'cost' to UK

Hammond says the UK is "fundamentally strong" but that Brexit means "there will be a cost to leaving the EU".

He admits that it will also "make our trade less fluid" and put up barriers.

He says the analysis being published later will show that a no-deal exit will have a much higher cost impact on the economy than May's deal.

Hammond says that offers the political benefits of being out with "very little economic cost".​
The definition of "very little" cost we'll find out later. But May's deal, or any deal, will cost the country money. We will be poorer than had we stayed in. Lower tax revenue, less money for public services like the NHS, schools, welfare, environmental protection and so on.

But a nice warm glow of tribal "independence" and little blue passports. Woohoo.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Is that supposed to be, "Good Brexit News"?
> 
> " Agreement falls short of current EU arrangements....."
> 
> This is what I can't understand. Whatever people think of the EU, wouldn't the Brexiter government be looking at better than the current EU arrangements? This was, after all promised during the leave campaign!
> 
> I would be itching for the same, if not better.
> 
> Oh yes, Football's not coming home (Quoting the Three Lions song), but looks like many UK people may be forced to....
> 
> View attachment 377873


Another example of scaremongering!

This is the official position of the EU regarding UK nationals working for EU governments after Brexit.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596837/IPOL_STU(2017)596837_EN.pdf

Note in the conclusion it says ..

*The EU should reach an arrangement with its Member States to grant residence rights to former EU staff members and their families in terms replicating the rights under Protocol No 7. This offers a fair arrangement to individuals who have loyally served the EU as staff members. It is not their individual fault to have lost EU citizenship.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think she a *Coward,* instead of having the vote* now,* instead of December 11th, she going round the country trying bully people in to voting for her deal. Shame on the women.


----------



## stockwellcat.

121 Days until 29th March 2019
Parliament will sit only 65 more days.

Time is running out fast.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I think she a *Coward,* instead of having the vote* now,* instead of December 11th, she going round the country trying bully people in to voting for her deal. Shame on the women.


Absolutely nothing to do with cowardice .....

As you can see the decision to have the vote on December 11th is to give time for the agreement to be thoroughly debated in Parliament.

and neither is it "bullying" she only doing what any responsible leader would do .... think of what happens before elections, MP's of all parties go out and lobby for support.

View image on Twitter


Adam Payne

✔@adampayne26

Here's the letter Chief Whip Julian Smith's has sent to MPs outlining the key dates over the next few weeks. Brexit meaningful vote and debate: Tuesday 4th-Tuesday 11th December.


93
6:01 PM - Nov 26, 2018 · York, England

188 people are talking about this


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> the foodbank crisis


If you want to see a food crisis, google Amal Hussein, Yemen. I have not posted the photo as someone will complain it is ''upsetting'' (warning for those who need it).


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> This country is so bad that refugees from the EU mainland are risking their lives to get here
> 
> All those choices, 26 countries and they still want to come here


I'm not sure that 'better than living in an impoverished war zone' is the most ringing endorsement of the UK ever, though 

And don't forget these people have no idea what life in the UK is really like, only what the traffikers have told them in order to extort more money for passage to the UK rather than just mainland Europe.


----------



## Arnie83

Bad news, @noushka05

*Harry Leslie Smith: War veteran has died son says*
*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46370665*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> 121 Days until 29th March 2019
> Parliament will sit only 65 more days.
> 
> Time is running out fast.


Parliament can be recalled if there's anything, you know, important going on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Parliament can be recalled if there's anything, you know, important going on.


This is low down on the list 
Has been for the last 2 years.
They won't let Brexit spoil their Christmas and New Year Break.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377877​


This is marvellous! 47% say staying in the EU would be humiliating.

So we must leave the EU because we would look silly if we didn't. I think that ship sailed quite a long time ago!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> This is low down on the list
> Has been for the last 2 years.
> They won't let Brexit spoil their Christmas and New Year Break.


If they need to come back in order to stop the No Deal that only the loony ERG want, I think they'll make an exception. If they don't then they all deserve to lose their jobs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Parliament recess between now and the end of February 2019.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> If they need to come back in order to stop the No Deal that only the loony ERG want, I think they'll make an exception. If they don't then they all deserve to lose their jobs.


They won't though.
They haven't cancelled any recess sessions for Brexit in the last 18 months.


----------



## stockwellcat.

They are in recess 7 working days after the "meaningful" vote (9 days if you include the weekend but Parliament doesn't sit at the weekend) for Christmas and New Year and then sit again on the 7th January 2019.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377877​


This, should anyone be wondering, is data from a survey carried out online for the Daily Mail. 1,030 sample size. The survey with all its many questions and answers can be found on survation website for those interested.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament recess between now and the end of February 2019.
> View attachment 377881


Yes.

Parliament can be recalled if something important comes up, such as preventing No Deal, approving the PM's plan to ask the EU if we can stay in the EEA a la Norway. That sort of thing.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> They won't though.
> They haven't cancelled any recess sessions for Brexit in the last 18 months.


The last 18 months weren't as close to the proposed Leave date as we are now. Therefore the urgency was less. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Arnie83 we will see how urgent the MP's treat it. I doubt they will spoil their holidays over it.

Regarding No Deal you keep going on about. If Parliament reject the deal there is no going back to the negotiating table and the EU Leaders have made it clear that voting down the deal would mean no deal to them. The option of voting for no deal in the UK is not on the table as the EU Leaders have made it clear what their stance is, they do have other business to deal with other than Brexit. They have also said as it stands at the moment if the UK wants to revoke article 50 all 27 EU countries must agree. It is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

Time is running out. In Parliament terms there are 65 days left as they don't sit the other 56 days.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> This, should anyone be wondering, is data from a survey carried out online for the Daily Mail. 1,030 sample size. The survey with all its many questions and answers can be found on survation website for those interested.


Interesting. Question 1

* Q1. When the UK Government's negotiations over the terms of Britain's exit from the EU are complete, would you support or oppose holding a People's Vote - a referendum - asking the public their view?

Support 48% Oppose 34%*​
Didn't see that on the front page of the Daily Mail!


----------



## Magyarmum

From today's France 24 ......... and France isn't even contemplating a FRexit!






*It's a recurring issue in France, and it's a worrying one: medicine shortages. Whether at the chemists' or in hospitals, it's becoming increasingly difficult for people to find the medication they've been prescribed. While anyone can be potentially affected by these shortages, the worst affected are cancer patients and those with neurological diseases. Last year, shortage warnings were sounded 530 times across France, the highest ever in a year. Marie Schuster reports.*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> @Arnie83 we will see how urgent the MP's treat it. I doubt they will spoil their holidays over it.


And what do you think is more important; the next 50 years of the country's future, or an MP's Christmas trip to Klosters?



stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding No Deal you keep going on about. If Parliament reject the deal there is no going back to the negotiating table and the EU Leaders have made it clear that voting down the deal would mean no deal to them. The option of voting for no deal in the UK is not on the table as the EU Leaders have made it clear what their stance is, they do have other business to deal with other than Brexit. They have also said as it stands at the moment if the UK wants to revoke article 50 all 27 EU countries must agree. It is not as simple as you are making it out to be.


There is no renegotiation of the current Withdrawal Agreement. An alternative approach, such as the Norway option, is a different matter. Read what the political commentators say.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> From today's France 24 ......... and France isn't even contemplating a FRexit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It's a recurring issue in France, and it's a worrying one: medicine shortages. Whether at the chemists' or in hospitals, it's becoming increasingly difficult for people to find the medication they've been prescribed. While anyone can be potentially affected by these shortages, the worst affected are cancer patients and those with neurological diseases. Last year, shortage warnings were sounded 530 times across France, the highest ever in a year. Marie Schuster reports.*


Oh look there's already a medicines shortage but not in the UK.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> This is marvellous! 47% say staying in the EU would be humiliating.
> 
> So we must leave the EU because we would look silly if we didn't. I think that ship sailed quite a long time ago![/QUOTE





Arnie83 said:


> The last 18 months weren't as close to the proposed Leave date as we are now. Therefore the urgency was less. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?


One would hope it is pretty obvious, it is unbelievable that a Christmas recess would be considered more important than sorting the future of the country!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting. Question 1
> 
> * Q1. When the UK Government's negotiations over the terms of Britain's exit from the EU are complete, would you support or oppose holding a People's Vote - a referendum - asking the public their view?
> 
> Support 48% Oppose 34%*​
> Didn't see that on the front page of the Daily Mail!


Odd how selective the Daily Mail have been with their survey headlines isn`t it


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> One would hope it is pretty obvious, it is unbelievable that a Christmas recess would be considered more important than sorting the future of the country!


British Politicians for you. 
And EU Leaders as they break for Christmas as well and so does pretty much every political institution across the world. So why shouldn't the UK Politicians as they work really hard?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I can see this thread filled with angry comments from some remainers during the Parliament recess over Christmas and New Year or before then if the vote in Parliament doesn't go their way.


----------



## Arnie83

*Q8. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?

May's Deal 37% Remain in the EU 46%*

*Q9. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?

Leave with No Deal 40% Remain in the EU 50%*​
Also strangely missing from the Mail's front page.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> *Q8. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?
> 
> May's Deal 37% Remain in the EU 46%*
> 
> *Q9. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?
> 
> Leave with No Deal 40% Remain in the EU 50%*​
> Also strangely missing from the Mail's front page.


I notice you don't sound at all surprised...


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Absolutely nothing to do with cowardice .....
> 
> As you can see the decision to have the vote on December 11th is to give time for the agreement to be thoroughly debated in Parliament.
> 
> and neither is it "bullying" she only doing what any responsible leader would do .... think of what happens before elections, MP's of all parties go out and lobby for support.
> 
> View image on Twitter
> 
> 
> Adam Payne
> 
> ✔@adampayne26
> 
> Here's the letter Chief Whip Julian Smith's has sent to MPs outlining the key dates over the next few weeks. Brexit meaningful vote and debate: Tuesday 4th-Tuesday 11th December.
> 
> 
> 93
> 6:01 PM - Nov 26, 2018 · York, England
> 
> 188 people are talking about this


May is gaslighting us whilst sticking two fingers up at democracy. She is disgusting.



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377877​


We're already humiliated.

The tories and their brexit have reduced our country to a global laughing stock.








Calvine said:


> If you want to see a food crisis, google Amal Hussein, Yemen. I have not posted the photo as someone will complain it is ''upsetting'' (warning for those who need it).


Whataboutery? Surely not :-(

Yes, I have seen plenty of heartbreaking photos of starving children and adults in the Yemen, and have joined many campaigns to try to force the tories to stop selling arms to 'our Saudi allies'. Were you aware the tories are complicit in the humanitarian catastrophe over there, Calvine? And as they are in government that makes the UK complicit. For shame.
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/n...-children-have-starved-to-death-in-yemens-war
_ An estimated 85,000 children under age 5 may have died of hunger and disease since the outbreak of Yemen's civil war in 2015, an international aid group said Wednesday_.

_
( since the outbreak of the Yemen civil war in March 2015) The UK has licensed at least £4.7bn of arms exports to Saudi Arabia and £860m to its coalition partners. These don't include all licences but also not all licences result in goods ultimately being exported._

https://fullfact.org/news/uk-has-licensed-least-47bn-arms-exports-saudi-arabia-start-yemen-war/

News
_*Tories abstain as European parliament overwhelmingly backs EU-wide arms embargo on Saudi Arabia*_
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ay-saudi-arabia-jamal-khashoggi-a8601591.html

The European parliament has called for an EU-wide arms embargo against Saudi Arabia, piling pressure on Theresa May to follow Angela Merkel's lead and suspend weapons sales to the autocracy.

The vote comes the same day as Saudi Arabia's public prosecutor confirmed that the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi was "premeditated", and amid renewed calls for the west to stop supplying the country's bloody war in Yemen.

British Conservative MEPs were branded "disgraceful" after they abstained in a specific vote on whether to impose the arms embargo on the kingdom, which passed 242 votes to 23 - though they ultimately backed a wider motion condemning the Saudi's conduct.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Odd how selective the Daily Mail have been with their survey headlines isn`t it


It's important to also know how people are feeling as well and that is why they published the polls I posted as the press is saturated with remainer stuff daily.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> *Q8. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?
> 
> May's Deal 37% Remain in the EU 46%*
> 
> *Q9. If there was a referendum tomorrow, with the following options on the ballot paper, which would you support?
> 
> Leave with No Deal 40% Remain in the EU 50%*​
> Also strangely missing from the Mail's front page.


Indeed, as Stockwellcat says it is important to know what people are thinking, wonder why the Mail didn`t include that data in their headlines!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Bad news, @noushka05
> 
> *Harry Leslie Smith: War veteran has died son says*
> *
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46370665*


I had heard, but thank you Arnie. Harry was a shining beacon of compassion and wisdom in these crazy times. What a sad loss for his family and for the world.


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Indeed, as Stockwellcat says it is important to know what people are thinking, wonder why the Mail didn`t include that data in their headlines!


People aleady know how some remainers feel as it is published everyday saying this poll says that this poll says this. Why not publish a different poll on the front page of the Mail? People are probably fedup with hearing about the remainer polls.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> People aleady know how some remainers feel as it is published everyday saying this poll says that this poll says this. Why not publish a different poll on the front page of the Mail? People are probably fedup with hearing about the remainer polls.


And there was me thinking it was just different questions from the same poll, conveniently ignored due to not fitting in with the Mail's narrative... 

Seriously, though, if 'It would be embarrasing not to go ahead' is now one of the biggest reasons left for supporting brexit, then they're definitely scraping the bottom of the barrel!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> If you want to see a food crisis, google Amal Hussein, Yemen. I have not posted the photo as someone will complain it is ''upsetting'' (warning for those who need it).


Yes indeed, awful.

But the UK is doing this to itself though.

it's "The will of the people".


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed, awful.
> 
> But the UK is doing this to itself though.
> 
> it's "The will of the people".


Oh come on, the situations don't even remotely compare.


----------



## noushka05

PMQs. Corbyn: _ "She's gone from promising frictionless trade to friction and less trade."_

That's really good__


----------



## Elles

Many probably would rather stay in the Eu than accept May’s deal. A lot of high profile brexiteers are campaigning against the deal, Boris even resigned over it, so what do we expect? We’re being told it’s May’s deal, no deal or staying in. Not exactly the outcome promised before the referendum. The deal is the best Theresa May could muster, without leaving with no deal at all. If we still want to leave, but with some kind of deal with the Eu, that’s what we’re being offered atm. Take it or leave it.

I have no respect for Corbyn at all. If it’s true and he wants to debate domestic policy only and with only Theresa May, he’s letting down every person who voted for him. He’s refused to discuss brexit, or the deal, or to allow representatives from groups such as the People’s Vote, or to discuss a second referendum. He needs dumping from the Labour Party, far more than TM needs ousting. TM is pretty representative of the Conservative party, I’m not sure Corbyn represents anything other than himself and his ambition to be PM before he dies. Am I right?


----------



## noushka05

PMQs. Jeremy Corbyn: _"Professor Alston said in his damning UN report into UK poverty, 'In my meetings with the government, it was clear to me that the impact of Brexit on people in poverty is an afterthought"

........................_

Sickening. How anyone could seek to excuse the tory party is beyond me.


----------



## Elles

Oh and Corbyn’s constituents voted to Remain in the Eu. My area also voted to stay in the Eu and our MP is trying to do something about it, unlike Corbyn.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> PMQs. Corbyn: _ "She's gone from promising frictionless trade to friction and less trade."_
> 
> That's really good__


It is. I wonder who wrote it for him!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> PMQs. Jeremy Corbyn: _"Professor Alston said in his damning UN report into UK poverty, 'In my meetings with the government, it was clear to me that the impact of Brexit on people in poverty is an afterthought"
> 
> ........................_
> 
> Sickening. How anyone could seek to excuse the tory party is beyond me.


I know it's only one side of that particular story, but it certainly rings true.

The Government is telling us that even under May's proposals we are going to be worse off than would be the case if we stayed in.

There are people out there who are reduced to tears - and worse - when another bill lands on the mat and they have to explain to their kids why they can't have the same things that their school-friends enjoy.

Yet May is still dead-set on denying such people a more prosperous future, and for what? So that some idiot MP doesn't have to feel "humiliated" when he shows a "pink passport" as he goes on his 3rd overseas holiday of the year.

I have to say: shame on them.


----------



## noushka05

This is very interesting and positive . Seems logical to assume our brexit car crash has served as a warning to EU nationals in other countries.

EU27, Europe Elects analysis:

EU membership referendum: % for Remain

Poland / Nov 18 / IBRiS: 91%

Germany / Oct 18 / Kantar: 89%

Spain / Oct 18 / Kantar: 87%

Romania / Oct 18 / Kantar: 81%

France / Oct 18 / Kantar: 79%

Italy / Nov 18 / Noto: 74%

(€ membership ref) #Brexit


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I know it's only one side of that particular story, but it certainly rings true.
> 
> The Government is telling us that even under May's proposals we are going to be worse off than would be the case if we stayed in.
> 
> There are people out there who are reduced to tears - and worse - when another bill lands on the mat and they have to explain to their kids why they can't have the same things that their school-friends enjoy.
> 
> Yet May is still dead-set on denying such people a more prosperous future, and for what? So that some idiot MP doesn't have to feel "humiliated" when he shows a "pink passport" as he goes on his 3rd overseas holiday of the year.
> 
> I have to say: shame on them.


It does. The UN report savaged the tories for their cruel austerity.

In pmqs May apparently denied her brexit deal would make the UK poorer than the current EU membership - at the same time the BBC were showing her own governments figures on screen


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> In pmqs May apparently denied her brexit deal would make the UK poorer than the current EU membership - at the same time the BBC were showing her own governments figures on screen


Hey, maybe they've found the Magic Money Tree!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

[QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065332821, member: 1291226"

I have no respect for Corbyn at all. If it's true and he wants to debate domestic policy only and with only Theresa May, he's letting down every person who voted for him. He's refused to discuss brexit, or the deal, or to allow representatives from groups such as the People's Vote, or to discuss a second referendum. He needs dumping from the Labour Party, far more than TM needs ousting. TM is pretty representative of the Conservative party, I'm not sure Corbyn represents anything other than himself and his ambition to be PM before he dies. Am I right? [/QUOTE]

I don`t think it is true Elles, I can`t find anything that says Corbyn wants to discuss domestic policy _only_ and refuses to debate Brexit, even the Guardian article posted on this thread yesterday didn`t suggest Corbyn would not discuss Brexit. It said he would use it debate Brexit _and_ the Governments policies, not the same thing as refusing to discuss Brexit at all! 
Regarding who is allowing who to join debate again apart from the guardian article I can`t find anything linking Corbyn especially to suggesting it should just be him and May. Again the Guardian article suggests Corbyn does not want the people vote representative at the debate but it appears May also thinks only she and Corbyn as the leaders of the two main parties should be at the debate. There seems to a lot of noise from other parties, the peoples vote, oh and of course Boris but it all seems to be aimed at May and her not wanting others at the debate.

I suppose it will be up to the broadcaster who gets invited or not, if either Corbyn or May don`t like it I guess they will decline the invite. 
Personally I can`t see the point in a TV debate


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> Hey, maybe they've found the Magic Money Tree!


  They lost it in the Cayman Islands didn't they?


----------



## noushka05

Please god! Even I've been starting to lose faith that they would see sense and do the right thing for the country.

_John McDonnell telling @bbclaurak on #PoliticsLive that a second referendum now seems inevitable feels like a major moment for Labour on Brexit_


----------



## noushka05

BREAKING.

CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS KLAXON. Speaker just upped the stakes re Brexit legal advice. Tells Keir Starmer "it will be for me to decide - and I will not linger - whether there is an arguable case that a contempt has been committed…" And DUP's Nigel Dodds supports him (via Paul Waugh)


...........


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> It does. The UN report savaged the tories for their cruel austerity.
> 
> In pmqs May apparently denied her brexit deal would make the UK poorer than the current EU membership - at the same time the BBC were showing her own governments figures on screen


She plays with words. Her Brexit will (probably) not make the country poorer than it is now. What it will definitely do is make the country poorer than it would have been had we stayed in.

Interestingly, what she fails to mention is that the best figures for her deal assume that there is no change to EEA migration to the UK. The more those are reduced, the greater the cost to the economy.

Also included is the long term effect of new trade deals, which we might not get. Though since that is just +0.2% of GDP over 15 years, it doesn't really seem worth the bother.

In fact, if we're not even going to get any reduction in EEA migration, it makes you wonder why May is bothering at all, except that she wants to look like Thatcher.


----------



## Elles

Maybe I’m wrong, but reading between the lines, there is the vaguest suggestion of a second referendum. By Theresa May.

‘There’s no time, article 50 would have to be extended’ isn’t the same as ‘No’.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Whatever either party wants to do next they have left it far to late.

Article 50 can only be extended if all the EU27 Leaders agree to it.










Do you really think the EU27 are in the mood to? I don't.

I think time is going to run out.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but reading between the lines, there is the vaguest suggestion of a second referendum. By Theresa May.
> 
> 'There's no time, article 50 would have to be extended' isn't the same as 'No'.


Given how quickly and with such gusto she is trying to sell her deal to the public, including the proposed debate with Corbyn, it is beginning to look that way.

She's done the maths, realised that there is every chance she can't get it through Parliament, and the only way she can then revive it is to have the People vote for it.

She won't perform the actual U-turn unless and until she loses the Commons vote, though.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Whatever either party wants to do next they have left it far to late.
> 
> Article 50 can only be extended if all the EU27 Leaders agree to it.
> 
> View attachment 377896
> 
> 
> Do you really think the EU27 are in the mood to? I don't.


We've done this one to death too. They want us in; why would they suddenly want us out, and with a No Deal that damages the EU as well as the UK?

Cui bono?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> We've done this one to death too. They want us in; why would they suddenly want us out, and with a No Deal that damages the EU as well as the UK?
> 
> Cui bono?


Yes you have done it to death telling everyone about remaining for the last 2 years. Headache.

Tick tock 65 working Parliament days left.

Just let me know when the Politicians stop arguing amongst themselves to bother with Brexit. They are to busy at the moment bickering.

Corbyn stuck in General Election mode and May trying to save her career.

To be honest I am getting fed up with it all. But I will still vote against remaining if there is a precious peoples vote. I am sticking to what I originally voted. I hope that is understood loud and clear. 

The way things are going time is going to run out and that is being realistic.


----------



## noushka05

James O'Brien is on fire today. lol
1)
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...r-gets-very-angry-when-james-obrien-corrects/
*
When this Brexiteer said things that were patently untrue, James O'Brien put him right - and the caller got very angry about it.

James refused to let Clint get away with his inaccuracies and that led to a very tense call during his discussion on B*rexit.

2)
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-caller-ends-up-arguing-against-holidays/
*James O'Brien's Brexit Caller Ends Up Arguing Against Holidays*

_"This sums it up. Everything you've said has been torn to shreds. You've ended up arguing against holidays. And you still think you're on the right side of the decision"_
................
Hilarious!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> @cheekyscrip said
> in post 4849


But only on the left...:Blackalien


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes you have done it to death telling everyone about remaining for the last 2 years. Headache.
> 
> Tick tock 65 working Parliament days left.
> 
> Just let me know when the Politicians stop arguing amongst themselves to bother with Brexit. They are to busy at the moment bickering.
> 
> Corbyn stuck in General Election mode and May trying to save her career.
> 
> To be honest I am getting fed up with it all. But I will still vote against remaining if there is a precious peoples vote. I am sticking to what I originally voted. I hope that is understood loud and clear.


:Smuggrin

_
"We should have a general election but that's very difficult… If that's not possible we'll be calling upon the government then to join us in the public vote...that's the sequence I think that we'll inevitably go through._


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Were you aware the tories are complicit in the humanitarian catastrophe over there, Calvine?


No, but I'm guessing you are.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> :Smuggrin
> 
> _
> "We should have a general election but that's very difficult… If that's not possible we'll be calling upon the government then to join us in the public vote...that's the sequence I think that we'll inevitably go through._


If the Government refuse? They are in charge. Not you, not me, not the other MP's. :Smuggrin


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> No, but I'm guessing you are.




*Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account @Harryslaststand 13 Jul 2017
*The deaths of thousand of children in #yemen can be laid at the feet of David Cameron #TheresaMay & the Tory cabinet

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...here-yemen-epidemic-spiralling-out-of-control*


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> *Harry Leslie Smith*‏Verified account @Harryslaststand 13 Jul 2017
> *The deaths of thousand of children in #yemen can be laid at the feet of David Cameron #TheresaMay & the Tory cabinet
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...here-yemen-epidemic-spiralling-out-of-control*


The fact is, @noushka05, that Overseas Aid should be sent to help countries like this . . . we send millions to a country that can afford its own costly space programme (India) when it could be added to what we already send to Yemen. You will no doubt disagree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

As I said MP's and Ministers aren't really interested in Brexit.









www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-parliaments-46372406


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If the Government refuse? They are in charge. Not you, not me, not the other MP's. :Smuggrin


Yet when @Elles suggested that May was hinting towards a new referendum, you 'liked' the post. Odd.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yet when @Elles suggested that May was hinting towards a new referendum, you 'liked' the post. Odd.


:Smuggrin
Just checking you're watching me 
I like most things @Elles says.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Bank of England said all the scenarios they have presented today are not forecasts. Interesting Mr Mark Carny scenarios not forecasts. Your getting real and not predicting things because you have been wrong in the past. He said the financial services would survive.

The words that stand out are "could" and "maybe" and "might" another words it is a guess. Remember he has used these words before and has been totally wrong.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> :Smuggrin
> Just checking you're watching me
> I like most things @Elles says.


What I said about TM maybe hinting at a second referendum, isn't contradicting @stockwellcat. 's post that the government will have to agree with it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Treasury has already said that their predictions may change :Hilarious

So there predictions are untrue. Guess work. Scaremongering.


----------



## stockwellcat.

More conservative MP's have come forward and said they will back May's Deal to avoid a second referendum. Remember the Conservative Party is still the largest party in Parliament.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What I said about TM maybe hinting at a second referendum, isn't contradicting @stockwellcat. 's post that the government will have to agree with it.


Indeed not, though of course the minority government can be outvoted in Parliament. It's just odd to like a post suggesting the incidence of something that has long appeared anathema to him.

However, enough of all that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Indeed not, though of course the minority government can be outvoted in Parliament. It's just odd to like a post suggesting the incidence of something that has long appeared anathema to him.
> 
> However, enough of all that.


I knew what @Elles meant. You see it as yes a vote there is going to be a peoples vote. I don't. It has to get past Government. They are in charge. Not MP's, nor you or me. Government have the power to say no as they where democratically voted into power by the people of the UK regardless if they have a minority Government.

Don't forget the majoriry parties in Northern Ireland who back remain back the deal at the moment. DUP might not be needed to push this over the line.

SDLP back the deal and so do many other Northern Irish Parties.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Treasury and Bank of England have gone into Project Fear part 2.

Edited
The Institute of Economists have jumped onboard spouting project fear part 2 as well.

Here we go again :Yawn


----------



## Elles

Imho May is a master manipulator who wants to stay in the Eu and has been trying to steer us to it from day one. That’s why she has the support and backing of the Eu. She’s currently heading for a win win scenario. Her deal gets approved, win for May, her deal doesn’t get approved, win for May.

The forecasts, scenarios, or whatever they’re called, didn’t include May’s deal. The government deal they mention was from last June, not May’s current deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

BoE predictions came true - pound crashed after referendum.

No Deal and another 18% down?

Funny I remember how SWC was bringing up the good side of crashing pound - unfortunately his predictions went unfulfilled, it came to little use.
Remember that BoE is independent, not a government body, but obviously they were bullied before as we well remember.
BoE was no happy with Brexit.
They must understand something about economy.

This is why their role to forecast and warn if necessary.
Don’t kill the messenger!

Financial services will survive but will suffer significant loses - measured in loss of taxes , profit, employment, rent...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> BoR predictions came true - pound crashed after referendum.
> 
> No Deal and another 18% down?
> 
> Funny I remember how SWC was bringing up the good side of crashing pound - unfortunately his predictions went unfulfilled, it came to little use.
> Remember that BoE is independent, not a government body, but obviously they were bullied before as we well remember.
> BoE was no happy with Brexit.
> They must understand something about economy.
> 
> This is why their role to forecast and warn if necessary.
> Don't kill the messenger!
> 
> Financial services will survive but will suffer significant loses - measured in loss of taxes , profit, employment, rent...


The pound fell slightly. It most certainly did not crash. Here we go remainers going into project fear part 2 mode. Just a bit of advice. Just remember what happened last time with the remainers project fear.

So when did you get a masters in business finance @cheekyscrip? Stop pretending you and the others that now support remaining (not those that used to support remain as some have come over to the leave side or just want the Government to get on with leaving the EU) know it all. You don't.


----------



## Elles

I think I was one who brought up the advantages of a lower rate. Our exports improved, particularly to America and Australia. The pound didn’t crash though. 

It can be bad for Gib if the pound is worth less though. Some people in Gib are paid in sterling, but spend Euros. It was a problem for Gib people who had taken out mortgages in Euro, but were paid sterling. The stronger the pound, the cheaper their mortgage. Conversely the weaker the pound, the more expensive their mortgage. I know a few people who wished they’d made a different decision when they’d had the choice of currency.

The Bank of England has made it clear that they are not forecasting and that Theresa May’s deal wasn’t part of the scenarios they were asked to assess. If we asked the BoE to imagine a scenario where half the U.K. is under water and Russia and America refuse to deal with us, it wouldn’t mean it was going to happen and that’s what Mark Carney is trying to say. The worst case scenarios are highly unlikely to occur. Otherwise they could be seen to be supporting TM’s deal, by trying to scare people into accepting it, which they aren’t.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> The Treasury and Bank of England have gone into Project Fear part 2.
> 
> Edited
> The Institute of Economists have jumped onboard spouting project fear part 2 as well.
> 
> Here we go again :Yawn


It's the news! It's driving me nuts lol. They're saying 'He said this' and 'They said that', but He and They are saying '..but we didn't!' Talk about manipulation and twisting the facts. They seem to have given up even trying to hide it, people are so quick to believe it. I try to analyse what exactly people are saying, which is why I prefer to go to source, not read what someone on twitter or Facebook think, and I will even try to read between the lines given my own cynical view of what people are up to, but this takes the biscuit. They aren't reading between the lines, they're crossing them out and inserting their own version. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Oh come on, the situations don't even remotely compare.


Forgive any ignorance of mine but not exactly what caused the situation in Yemen and what we can do about it.

What I do realise is they didn't cause their situation by putting an "X" on a ballot paper following a dodgy and I'll informed "referendum" based on unicorns and lies.

So, if rationing returns to the UK with stockpiling of foods and medicines should become a reality they'll have themselves to blame.

The people of Yemen didn't have a choice.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The pound fell slightly. It most certainly did not crash. Here we go remainers going into project fear part 2 mode. Just a bit of advice. Just remember what happened last time with the remainers project fear.
> 
> So when did you get a masters in business finance @cheekyscrip? Stop pretending you and the others that now support remaining (not those that used to support remain as some have come over to the leave side or just want the Government to get on with leaving the EU) know it all. You don't.


Little you know!!!!
Currently working in financial sector, Stock Exchange listed international company lol. Right bang in the middle of it.
Quite a lot is now about preparing for Brexit. Making sure clients suffer no damage to their investments ...
Remember where I actually live!
Half of the people I know are in finance...
Stockbrokers, advisers, bankers etc...what do you think is discussed?

Overall pound lost about 18% - you call it slightly??? 
Imagine how that affect prices!!!

And what about you? MBA?


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Season 2 has just started.
*
_Just take a moment to remember how it affected you last time remainers and your cause._

_Nothing else needs to be said._


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Little you know!!!!
> Currently working in financial sector, Stock Exchange listed international company lol. Right bang in the middle of it.
> Quite a lot is now about preparing for Brexit. Making sure clients suffer no damage to their investments ...
> Remember where I actually live!
> Half of the people I know are in finance...
> Stockbrokers, advisers, bankers etc...what do you think is discussed?
> 
> Overall pound lost about 18% - you call it slightly???
> Imagine how that affect prices!!!
> 
> And what about you? MBA?


The British Pound Sterling did not crash after the UK voted to leave the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I think I was one who brought up the advantages of a lower rate. Our exports improved, particularly to America and Australia. The pound didn't crash though.
> 
> It can be bad for Gib if the pound is worth less though. Some people in Gib are paid in sterling, but spend Euros. It was a problem for Gib people who had taken out mortgages in Euro, but were paid sterling. The stronger the pound, the cheaper their mortgage. Conversely the weaker the pound, the more expensive their mortgage. I know a few people who wished they'd made a different decision when they'd had the choice of currency.
> 
> The Bank of England has made it clear that they are not forecasting and that Theresa May's deal wasn't part of the scenarios they were asked to assess. If we asked the BoE to imagine a scenario where half the U.K. is under water and Russia and America refuse to deal with us, it wouldn't mean it was going to happen and that's what Mark Carney is trying to say. The worst case scenarios are highly unlikely to occur. Otherwise they could be seen to be supporting TM's deal, by trying to scare people into accepting it, which they aren't.


Unfortunately lots of supplies come from Spain and Spain is cheaper.
Many products and services are not available in Gibraltar and little choice.
Lots of people rent in Spain and pay in euros. It hits our Spanish workers too.

I would say prices went up by about 30% as food goes in Morrisons.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mark Carney supports Theresa May's deal by the way. His predictions/forecasts are about no deal brexit. Just so we are all on tbe same page and understand what is going on.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377909
> 
> *Season 2 has just started.
> *
> _Just take a moment to remember how it affected you last time remainers and your cause._
> 
> _Nothing else needs to be said._


Would you like to explain exactly what calculations and assumptions of the Government analysis you disagree with and why? And perhaps put forward your own alternative calculations?

Do you not think that would be more persuasive than just shouting 'Project Fear' at it?

Last time it was predicted that economic growth would suffer, and - despite the monetary encouragement by the BoE and the easing of austerity by the new Chancellor - the UK subsequently fell from the top of the G7 growth list to the bottom. Does that not strike you as reason to take such expert predictions seriously rather than simply dismissing them? Or do you see other reasons for that economic performance?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The British Pound Sterling did not crash after the UK voted to leave the EU.


How far does the pound have to fall during the course of a day to qualify as a 'crash'?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Would you like to explain exactly what calculations and assumptions of the Government analysis you disagree with and why? And perhaps put forward your own alternative calculations?
> 
> Do you not think that would be more persuasive than just shouting 'Project Fear' at it?
> 
> Last time it was predicted that economic growth would suffer, and - despite the monetary encouragement by the BoE and the easing of austerity by the new Chancellor - the UK subsequently fell from the top of the G7 growth list to the bottom. Does that not strike you as reason to take such expert predictions seriously rather than simply dismissing them? Or do you see other reasons for that economic performance?


Last time it was predicted armageddon would happen if the UK voted leave and many other things from the remainers project fear campaign.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> How far does the pound have to fall during the course of a day to qualify as a 'crash'?


Wasn't a clash though it was a slight fall.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The British Pound Sterling did not crash after the UK voted to leave the EU.


That is called "crashed". Huge devaluation. What did you think it meant?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 377914
> View attachment 377913
> 
> 
> That is called "crashed". Huge devaluation. What did you think it meant?


Still not a crash. It was a slight fall.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Unfortunately lots of supplies come from Spain and Spain is cheaper.
> Many products and services are not available in Gibraltar and little choice.
> Lots of people rent in Spain and pay in euros. It hits our Spanish workers too.
> 
> I would say prices went up by about 30% as food goes in Morrisons.


Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's why mum ended up living with son and wife. The Euro mortgage on mum's house in Spain got too expensive when they were paid in sterling. I was shocked at the price increases last time I went over. In Spain a lot was now more expensive than it is in Britain.

Just organising flights btw. I am now a proud Nanna.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I am now a proud Nanna.


Congratualtions on becoming a proud Nanna.


----------



## Elles

I quite like the Big Bang/Young Sheldon’s ‘Meemaw’, but I’m not southern American, so Nanna, same as mine was, will be nice.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stuaz

Always makes me laugh when people start spouting that anything negative about Brexit, is "Project Fear".

I jut picture them doing this:










I don't run the Bank of England, I don't work in Banking/Finance sector, I don't run an international car manufacturer. So when the people who run those things talk, I listen.

Doesn't mean what they say is right but these people do the jobs that we don't. They have more info to hand than us..

To just outright dismiss what they say is "Project Fear" is just naive... hell its just plain stupid.....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's why mum ended up living with son and wife. The Euro mortgage on mum's house in Spain got too expensive when they were paid in sterling. I was shocked at the price increases last time I went over. In Spain a lot was now more expensive than it is in Britain.
> 
> Just organising flights btw. I am now a proud Nanna.


Very best wishes to Nana!!! Wonderful news!!! Any sneaky peak? Boy or girl?


----------



## Elles

Granddaughter.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The pound fell slightly. It most certainly did not crash. Here we go remainers going into project fear part 2 mode. Just a bit of advice. Just remember what happened last time with the remainers project fear.
> 
> So when did you get a masters in business finance @cheekyscrip? Stop pretending you and the others that now support remaining (not those that used to support remain as some have come over to the leave side or just want the Government to get on with leaving the EU) know it all. You don't.


I gave you my credentials as you asked about them, by the way not MBA but another three little letters... 
What are yours ?

Are we back to "Who needs experts" ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Are we back to "Who needs experts" ?


Are you one on disguise :Nailbiting


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Granddaughter.


Very beautiful!!! Such a wise expression! 
So good to see them arrive safely and well.
Lovely eyes...


----------



## Elles

stuaz said:


> Always makes me laugh when people start spouting that anything negative about Brexit, is "Project Fear".
> 
> I jut picture them doing this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't run the Bank of England, I don't work in Banking/Finance sector, I don't run an international car manufacturer. So when the people who run those things talk, I listen.
> 
> Doesn't mean what they say is right but these people do the jobs that we don't. They have more info to hand than us..
> 
> To just outright dismiss what they say is "Project Fear" is just naive... hell its just plain stupid.....


The trouble is they aren't listening and I don't mean just those who say it's project fear. Mark Carney et al are being eminently sensible and factual, it's the news that are calling for panic.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> What are yours ?


Told you before in a previous closed thread.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you one on disguise :Nailbiting


No. But work for those who are.Something might have rubbed on .
Apprentice maybe?


----------



## stockwellcat.

So how would you feel @cheekyscrip (don't be shocked) that it might be better that MP's pass the deal as the predictions are on a no deal brexit and maybe things won't be so bad because probably the UK might be able to be strong and stable in the big wide world tied to the EU via a customs union that might end some time in 20xx not being able to strike trade deals. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Told you before in a previous closed thread.


I remember something about IT security and cat nutrition?


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> So how would you feel @cheekyscrip (don't be shocked) that it might be better that MP's pass the deal as the predictions are on a no deal brexit and maybe things won't be so bad because probably the UK might be able to be strong and stable in the big wide world tied to the EU via a customs union that might end some time in 20xx. :Hilarious


Remain is so much better than that.
Obviously.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> No. But work for those who are.Something might have rubbed on .
> Apprentice maybe?


Apprentice?  You don't work for Alan Sugar... or... Donald Trump!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Last time it was predicted armageddon would happen if the UK voted leave and many other things from the remainers project fear campaign.


But what assumptions and calculations do you disagree with in the published document, and what are your alternative figures? To dismiss something without any analysis of its accuracy or putting forward a reasoned alternative is not really much of a credible argument is it? Especially when the projections for the post-referendum reaction have proved to be really quite accurate given the economic slowdown that has occurred.



stockwellcat. said:


> Wasn't a clash though it was a slight fall.


So what percentage would the pound have to fall in such a short period to qualify as a crash, if 18% is a 'slight fall'?

By your implication if we had 5 'slight falls' in a row the currency would be pretty much worthless!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So how would you feel @cheekyscrip (don't be shocked) that it might be better that MP's pass the deal as the predictions are on a no deal brexit and maybe things won't be so bad because probably the UK might be able to be strong and stable in the big wide world tied to the EU via a customs union that might end some time in 20xx not being able to strike trade deals. :Hilarious


You do know that the government's analysis published today is based on May's deal v. no deal, don't you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Remain is so much better than that.
> Obviously.


But cheeky why turn down such a good deal? It keeps the UK aligned to the EU, stuck in a customs union to 20xx and Northern Ireland protected with a backstop the EU can put into force whenever they want and the EU Leaders have all the cards like they did when we was members in the EU. They have control of the UK's fishing waters because they won't fish in there own waters or is it because the fish avoid going near the EU's area of the water because they don't like the EU either :Hilarious

_Disclaimer: No I haven't changed my mind._


----------



## Elles

The expert economists didn't call it a crash, it was slight, followed by some recovery. 

Did you look at Mark Carney talking about the scenarios @Arnie83 ? He says it wasn't based on May's deal, which they didn't have, they were asked to assess an earlier deal, from last June and although some of it did form the basis of May's deal, it wasn't May's deal. Various news outlets, including on tv are ignoring what he's been saying.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> But cheeky why turn down such a good deal? It keeps the UK aligned to the EU, stuck in a customs union to 20xx and Northern Ireland protected with a backstop the EU can put into force whenever they want and the EU Leaders have all the cards like they did when we was members in the EU. They have control of the UK's fishing waters because they won't fish in there own waters or is it because the fish avoid going near the EU's area of the water because they don't like the EU either :Hilarious
> 
> _Disclaimer: No I haven't changed my mind._


Minister Picardo of Gibraltar seems in favour of May's deal too. There's a possibility that if it is turned down we leave with no deal at all and I think for those it really matters to, that is too great a risk and they'd rather have the breathing space the deal gives them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Minister Picardo of Gibraltar seems in favour of May's deal too. There's a possibility that if it is turned down we leave with no deal at all and I think for those it really matters to, that is too great a risk and they'd rather have the breathing space the deal gives them.


MP's have started saying they are going to back the deal because they don't want another referendum  How dare they remainers will be so upset. :Hilarious Other MP's are saying they will back the deal to avoid the EU having no deal (Oops sorry UK having no deal :Hilarious). It was on the news earlier.


----------



## Elles

@cheekyscrip sent a pm ref Gib visit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> @cheekyscrip sent a pm ref Gib visit.


Hope you have a nice time in Gibraltar @Elles meeting your new grandaughter.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Hope you have a nice time in Gibraltar @Elles meeting your new grandaughter.


Thanks! I'm very excited, never thought it would ever happen that I'd be a Nanna . I haven't flown since flying back from Portugal on the day after September 11th, always driven down since, so I'm a bit nervous too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Thanks! I'm very excited, never thought it would ever happen that I'd be a Nanna . I haven't flown since flying back from Portugal on the day after September 11th, always driven down since, so I'm a bit nervous too.


I am sure the flight will be nice and smooth and you'll enjoy Gibraltar and meeting your new Grandaughter. I haven't flown on a plane since 2008 when a friend of mine scared the life out of me when the plane banked left by saying something (I won't say what) but he thought he was being funny. Nervous flyer myself.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Thanks! I'm very excited, never thought it would ever happen that I'd be a Nanna . I haven't flown since flying back from Portugal on the day after September 11th, always driven down since, so I'm a bit nervous too.


You are brave!!! 
At worst if the weather is not good they land in Malaga. Hope the day will be good!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Apprentice?  You don't work for Alan Sugar... or... Donald Trump!


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious 
Who knows?


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Arnie83 and @cheekyscrip there wasn't a financial crash the pound dipped slightly and started recovering afterwards. Also the forecasts today where based on a no deal scenario. Mark Carney fully backs Theresa May's current deal not the one 6 months ago.









http://saudigazette.com.sa/article/548508/BUSINESS/Carney-supports-Mays-Brexit-deal









https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/20/mark-carney-backs-theresa-may-brexit-deal


----------



## Arnie83

Checking ...

As Carney said, his scenarios were not predictions of what would happen, but worse case projections. The more lurid possibilities can safely be ignored, though I have no doubt they will be used as evidence of Project Fear by those who wish to ignore his comments.

The government figures were based on projections stemming from May's White Paper and on No Deal. These figures were middle of the range of calculations and all showed that the country would be worse off economically in every scenario. Even the best case bottom of the range showed losses.

They also assumed continued EU migration of 100,000 p.a. (i.e. not including non-EU migration). Lower assumptions for immigration made the economic calculations worse of course.

Dismissal of all figures will still ensue, with no reasons given except "They always get it wrong" and ignoring the fact that 'getting it wrong' allows for the figures to be worse than estimated as well as being better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I agree with Farage.


----------



## stockwellcat.

http://www.cityam.com/269879/critics-accuse-bank-england-using-its-forecasts-play



> Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman said the Bank's scenario was "pretty far out on a limb", saying that the assumptions "do not follow from basic trade theory."





> With up to 100 Conservative MPs threatening to vote against the Prime Minister's proposal, there were suggestions the Bank's intervention was designed to spook the Commons into avoiding a no-deal outcome.





> Brexit-backing MPs lashed out at the Bank, with Treasury Select Committee member Charlie Elphicke saying: "The other day Dr Carney told the Treasury Select Committee that interest rates could go down in a no-deal Brexit. Today he says they will rise. The Bank of England is all over the place."





> Former Monetary Policy Committee member and Remain supporter Andrew Sentance also weighed in, tweeting: "The Bank of England Brexit analysis is highly speculative and extreme.
> 
> It will add to the view that the Bank is getting unnecessarily involved in politics and that will further undermine perceptions of its independence and credibility."





> Carney denied the Bank of England was feeding into 'Project Fear' in a bid to drum up support for May's deal and said the Bank was asked by MPs to assess the scenarios.


^ I disbelieve this and believe he was deliberately getting involved with politics trying to sway the vote so MP's vote for Theresa May's deal. Look at the backlash this has caused by critics above.


> The governor told reporters at a press conference: "The 'no deal' scenario is to provide reassurance, it's not supposed to make people scared.
> 
> "It's to provide reassurance that even if this happens, which is unlikely, the system is more than ready."
> 
> "The UK financial system is ready for Brexit whatever form it takes."





> Further support for May's plan came from Airbus, who told MPs this morning aerospace firms may give the green light to investment in the UK currently on hold if the PM's deal passes through parliament.
> 
> That call was echoed by Britain's richest man, Jim Ratcliffe, in a statement through his chemicals company Ineos.
> 
> "We would hope that our parliamentarians would now put the good of the country ahead of political considerations and ensure a safe passage for the deal through parliament," said the statement.


----------



## jenny armour

Just out of interest. Are all of the cabinet who support Teresa May, remainers or did any of them originally vote to Leave?


----------



## Magyarmum

jenny armour said:


> Just out of interest. Are all of the cabinet who support Teresa May, remainers or did any of them originally vote to Leave?


This should answer your question

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/where-do-theresa-mays-ministers-stand-on-brexit

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42615109


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377943
> 
> 
> I agree with Farage.


Yes, you do.

Did you ask him about his credentials?


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, you do.
> 
> Did you ask him about his credentials?


BoE is neutral. They just there to predict and warn.
BoE predicted Brexit a negative effect on economy and now No Deal as the worst.
If May thinks it is going to rain and meteo says it will rain that does not mean meteo supports government!!!!
BoE and May might also agree that the Esrth is round.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> The fact is, @noushka05, that Overseas Aid should be sent to help countries like this . . . we send millions to a country that can afford its own costly space programme (India) when it could be added to what we already send to Yemen. You will no doubt disagree.


 The tories have the blood of tens of thousands of innocent Yemani men, women and children on their hands, yet once again its appears you use more evasion tactics to avoid condemnation of the government? 
Do you find it hard to acknowledge the roll the tories have played in the catastrophe in Yemen Calvine? ( Orthe 120,000+ deaths (deemed 'economic murder) they are responsible for in the UK? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-social-care-government-policy-a8057306.html )
_
But what it actually reveals is a far darker, more shameful truth. The truth of a Saudi-led coalition, armed by Britain and the United States, which from the very start of the conflict in 2015 has sought to use starvation as a weapon of wa_r.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...me-civilians-saudi-coalition?CMP=share_btn_fb

And no Calvine, I 'dont disagree' about foreign aid Foreign aid should be used to help people out of poverty, nothing else.

But the tories do love diverting the publics money into private pockets, dont they??. Have you heard the latest?

The Foreign Office is now handing our money over to their mates in the fossil fuel industry - they are funding climate breakdown! When they know the devastating consequences of climate breakdown is already destroying the lives of millions of the poorest people on Earth! They dont give a to$$ about the poor here or anywhere. They care ONLY about wealth and power.

*Government spending foreign aid money to promote fracking in China*
Exclusive: 'It is a flagrant misuse of the UK's aid budget to fund the fossil fuel industry overseas when the priority must be shifting to low carbon energy and boosting climate resilience.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ironment-dfid-funding-promoting-a8637601.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

City Am @Arnie83 and @cheekyscrip is a leading free business newspaper. Carney has certainly caused a stir. Paul Krugman has even commented along with Former Monetary Policy Committee member and Remain supporter Andrew Sentance. Carney has put his foot in it. If you want to believe Carney go ahead. Carney is trying to sway Parliamentary votes for Thresea May's deal which he fully back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> BoE is neutral. They just there to predict and warn.
> BoE predicted Brexit a negative effect on economy and now No Deal as the worst.
> If May thinks it is going to rain and meteo says it will rain that does not mean meteo supports government!!!!
> BoE and May might also agree that the Esrth is round.


Read CITY AM @cheekyscrip. City AM is a respectable free, business-focused newspaper distributed in and around London, England.

Carney supports Theresa May's deal and the idea of his speech yesterday was to drum up support for Theresa May's deal.


----------



## noushka05

*The young will never forgive my generation for the disaster of Brexit*

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...t-a4002511.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true





.............................................................................................................................................................

Bangladeshi Caterers Association backs second referendum.

_"We were misled."

https://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co...lls-on-mps-to-throw-out-brexit-deal-1-5799004_
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *The young will never forgive my generation for the disaster of Brexit*
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...t-a4002511.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .............................................................................................................................................................
> 
> Bangladeshi Caterers Association backs second referendum.
> 
> _"We were misled."
> 
> https://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co...lls-on-mps-to-throw-out-brexit-deal-1-5799004_
> .


Here you go again.
18 to 24 year olds and 25 to 30 year olds voted leave as well on the 23rd June 2016 @noushka05. You are flogging old arguements and going over old ground again. When these youngsters came forward to say they voted leave (like they do on social media nowadays) remainers laid into them and abused them online.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...-in-days-after-european-union-referendum-vote


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Here you go again.
> 18 to 24 year olds and 25 to 30 year olds voted leave as well on the 23rd June 2016 @noushka05. You are flogging old arguements and going over old ground again.


#
That article was only published a few days ago, just because you don't want to hear what it says ,doesn't mean others won't want to check it out SWC. Please have some consideration for other members.

The vast majority of young people voted remain - when it is they who will suffer the consequences of brexit the longest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

You can be too much @noushka05 as you do tend to go over the top. Stockwellcat pops you on temporary ignore.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You can be too much @noushka05. Stockwellcat pops you on temporary ignore.


I don't blame you. It must be tough having to face reality.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I don't blame you. It must be tough having to face reality.


No it gets annoying having to scroll through pages of drivel and old arguements being bought up again and again.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No it gets annoying having to scroll through pages of drivel and old arguements being bought up again and again.


If you say so:Smuggrin

(How did I guess you wouldn't be able to resist replying to my post)


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Bangladeshi Caterers Association backs second referendum.
> 
> _"We were misled."_
> 
> _https://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co...lls-on-mps-to-throw-out-brexit-deal-1-5799004_
> .


Whilst Brexit might have some impact it's not the whole story as to why curry houses are closing all over the UK,

They've been closing for several years due to a change in peoples taste in food and because it's become increasingly difficult to find skilled chefs amongst other reasons.

An article written in 2005

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series7/curry_chefs.shtml

And one in 2016

https://www.ft.com/content/2165379e-b4b2-11e5-8358-9a82b43f6b2f


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> You can be too much as you do tend to go over the top..


It has a name,  
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ragegasm


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> It has a name,
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ragegasm


Sounds painful.

Is there a cure for it?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Whilst Brexit might have some impact it's not the whole story as to why curry houses are closing all over the UK,
> 
> They've been closing for several years due to a change in peoples taste in food and because it's become increasingly difficult to find skilled chefs amongst other reasons.
> 
> An article written in 2005
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series7/curry_chefs.shtml
> 
> And one in 2016
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/2165379e-b4b2-11e5-8358-9a82b43f6b2f


Theres no might about it. Of course there will other things which affect businesses too.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> It has a name,
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ragegasm


If you're not angry, you're not paying attention (either that or you just don't give a to$$)


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Sounds painful.
> 
> Is there a cure for it?


Possibly but it would be an extreme cold turkey........stop looking at social media or stop believing it.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Possibly but it would be an extreme cold turkey........stop looking at social media or stop believing it.


Better still, start believing experts, in facts & evidence.

David Attenborough:_ it's wrong to simply dismiss experts because we don't like what they're saying_....


..............................................................


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Theres no might about it. Of course there will other things which affect businesses too.


If you know that, then why bother posting it as if it was all the fault of Brexit?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> If you know that, then why bother posting it as if it was all the fault of Brexit?


You misunderstand. Theres no _might_ that brexit is having a terrible impact on curry lane. The business owners are clear about that & obviously they will know better than you or I do.


----------



## noushka05

Brexit is proving to be terrible distraction indeed, not just for climate breakdown & climate action.

*Jeremy Corbyn*‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn 16h16 hours ago
*The scale of poverty in Britain shames this Tory Government. This is a national emergency which must no longer be ignored.

My letter to @Theresa_May about the United Nations' report into poverty in the UK.

*


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> City Am @Arnie83 and @cheekyscrip is a leading free business newspaper. Carney has certainly caused a stir. Paul Krugman has even commented along with Former Monetary Policy Committee member and Remain supporter Andrew Sentance. Carney has put his foot in it. If you want to believe Carney go ahead. Carney is trying to sway Parliamentary votes for Thresea May's deal which he fully back.


Paul Krugman does question the figures, and I for one will listen to him as a respected expert. I follow him on twitter and he said this:

"I'm anti-Brexit, and have no doubt that it will make Britain poorer. And the BoE could be right about the magnitude. But they've really gone pretty far out on a limb here"

I would like to see the assumptions that the BoE made for its worst case scenario "Disruptive Brexit" before deciding for myself how likely it was, but of course even Carney said it was unlikely.

This is interesting and presents a fuller picture than some headlines might suggest.










Or we could just shout Project Hysteria!!! and throw accusations at him without doing any actual analysis, which seems to be the approach adopted by some.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well a bit of good news.

*US and UK agree post-Brexit open skies deal*
The arrangement is one of nine bilateral agreements secured by the UK with other countries as it prepares for Brexit.

Britain and the US have agreed a new "open skies" deal for post-Brexit flights, the government has announced.

The UK has also secured bilateral air service arrangements with Albania, Georgia, Iceland, Israel, Kosovo, Montenegro, Morocco and Switzerland, while discussions with Canada are at "an advanced stage" according to the DfT.

Transport secretary Chris Grayling said the UK-US agreement and eight other deals were "proof that the UK will continue to be a major player on the world stage after we leave the EU".

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/us-and-uk-agree-post-brexit-open-skies-deal-11566550


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Paul Krugman does question the figures, and I for one will listen to him as a respected expert. I follow him on twitter and he said this:
> 
> "I'm anti-Brexit, and have no doubt that it will make Britain poorer. And the BoE could be right about the magnitude. But they've really gone pretty far out on a limb here"
> 
> I would like to see the assumptions that the BoE made for its worst case scenario "Disruptive Brexit" before deciding for myself how likely it was, but of course even Carney said it was unlikely.
> 
> This is interesting and presents a fuller picture than some headlines might suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or we could just shout Project Hysteria!!! and throw accusations at him without doing any actual analysis, which seems to be the approach adopted by some.


Again Carney supports May's deal. Yesterday he was drumming up support for her deal.

Alot of critics backlashed at Carney yesterday including Paul Krugman. Carney took his projections/predictions or whatever you want to call them too far.


----------



## noushka05

The Chinese

JK Rowling: "_May's suggestion that a Peoples Vote would 'overturn the will of the British people' makes literally no sense. Who does she think would be voting? The Chinese?
I swear to God I'm trying not to bang on about Brexit but for ****S SAKE, every time I come out of my writing room and look at the news some more dumbassery has been committed. THE WHOLE POINT OF DEMOCRACY IS THE FREEDOM TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE."_


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Again Carney supports May's deal. Yesterday he was drumming up support for her deal. Period.


I would imagine that Carney favours May's deal over No Deal, because he is clearly not an idiot.

I would doubt, without proof, the accusation that such support is the sole reason for the Bank of England analysts - I suspect Carney didn't do all the work himself - produced yesterday's Disruptive Brexit worst case scenario figures.

I have to respectfully disagree with your "Period", because I am not in full possession of the facts. Perhaps you are.

I'm afraid my preference for factual comment means that I won't see your response, should there be one.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The Chinese
> 
> JK Rowling: "_May's suggestion that a Peoples Vote would 'overturn the will of the British people' makes literally no sense. Who does she think would be voting? The Chinese?
> I swear to God I'm trying not to bang on about Brexit but for ****S SAKE, every time I come out of my writing room and look at the news some more dumbassery has been committed. THE WHOLE POINT OF DEMOCRACY IS THE FREEDOM TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE."_


Couldn't have put it better myself.

Which is probably why she's sold more books than I have!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I would imagine that Carney favours May's deal over No Deal, because he is clearly not an idiot.
> 
> I would doubt, without proof, the accusation that such support is the sole reason for the Bank of England analysts - I suspect Carney didn't do all the work himself - produced yesterday's Disruptive Brexit worst case scenario figures.
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with your "Period", because I am not in full possession of the facts. Perhaps you are.


I trust what City AM says as it is a respectable Business newspaper published and distributed in London.

But respectfully I feel project fear is rising it's head again after Carney's predictions yesterday. Read what the other experts said in City AM.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Again Carney supports May's deal. Yesterday he was drumming up support for her deal.
> 
> Alot of critics backlashed at Carney yesterday including Paul Krugman. Carney took his projections/predictions or whatever you want to call them too far.


https://brexitcentral.com/impossible-take-treasurys-brexit-impact-assessment-seriously/


----------



## stockwellcat.

The governor told reporters at a press conference: “The ‘no deal’ scenario is to provide reassurance, it’s not supposed to make people scared.

“It’s to provide reassurance that even if this happens, which is unlikely, the system is more than ready.”

“The UK financial system is ready for Brexit whatever form it takes.”

------

The problem I am many others have is he was deliberately out scaremongering people to drum up support for May's deal. Even expert critics believe this according to City AM.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The problem I am many others have is he was deliberately out scaremongering people to drum up support for May's deal. Even expert critics believe this according to City AM.


As a hellbent remainer I believe that myself! Been saying for a long time all these scenarios such as this and that, "In the event of a No Deal Brexit", as if to say by accepting May's deal would prevent all that from happening.

Any Brexit will be a disaster whether it's no deal or May's deal in my view.

May's deal will be a lot worse for the sole reason it strengthens her position in power should parliament pass it.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://brexitcentral.com/impossible-take-treasurys-brexit-impact-assessment-seriously/


Brexit central is a right wing, anti EU propagandist outfit MM. Matthew Elliott was CEO of Vote Leave, he founded the shady Tax Payers Alliance and* is* editor of Brexit Central. All implicated in the post I made which was dismissed outright as a conspiracy theory. Elliott is central to the corruption of our democracy by hostile entities, hes in league with & funded by the dangerous far right, 'climate denying' libertarians in the US & elsewhere!

ETA this is an essential article by George Monbiot on dark money

Thinktanks
*Dark money lurks at the heart of our political crisis*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...y-political-crisis-institute-economic-affairs

Please everyone. check your sources, it wont be just our country at stake should of the extremists behind the leave campaign get their way.


----------



## Elles

I don’t think he was (Carney), I think he’d done as asked and reported on the findings. He may support May’s deal over no deal, but I think people are reading too much into what he hasn’t said personally and using to push their own agenda. I knew that despite what he was actually saying, both sides would use it to talk about Project Fear, I just didn’t expect tv news to misappropriate it.


----------



## kimthecat

Just to lighten the mood .


----------



## Elles

How will labour end poverty after brexit? I thought there’d be no money.

In other words, don’t blame brexit for poor people and the homeless, there’s more than enough money available, it needs distributing fairly and promptly where it’s needed. Universal Credit was supposed to do that, even Corbyn supported it in principle, but unfortunately it hasn’t worked in practice and more people will suffer until it's improved.

Big business have always exploited those who have no choice. It’s why they employ people (even children/sweatshops) from poorer countries who will take lower pay and on zero hour contracts. Businesses are often greedy. I would say labour have had plenty of opportunities in government, but then Tony Blair was no better than a Tory and wasn’t Corbyn, is what his (Corbyn’s) supporters will say. So there’s no point in mentioning it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> How will labour end poverty after brexit? I thought there'd be no money.
> 
> In other words, don't blame brexit for poor people and the homeless, there's more than enough money available, it needs distributing fairly and promptly where it's needed. Universal Credit was supposed to do that, even Corbyn supported it in principle, but unfortunately it hasn't worked in practice and more people will suffer until it's improved.
> 
> Big business have always exploited those who have no choice. It's why they employ people (even children/sweatshops) from poorer countries who will take lower pay and on zero hour contracts. Businesses are often greedy. I would say labour have had plenty of opportunities in government, but then Tony Blair was no better than a Tory and wasn't Corbyn, is what his (Corbyn's) supporters will say. So there's no point in mentioning it.


Who has blamed brexit for the tories austerity? But brexit will make it nigh on impossible for a progressive party to address it. And the tories will use the chaos as an excuse to ramp it up if they remain in power! Thank fully it appears Corbyn is realising this and changing tack on his brexit position.

Corbyns voting history speaks for itself  And I'm pretty certain he didn't vote for universal credit Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary??.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Just to lighten the mood .


Let's lighten things up.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Brexit central is a right wing, anti EU propagandist outfit MM. Matthew Elliott was CEO of Vote Leave, he founded the shady Tax Payers Alliance and* is* editor of Brexit Central. All implicated in the post I made which was dismissed outright as a conspiracy theory. Elliott is central to the corruption of our democracy by hostile entities, hes in league with & funded by the dangerous far right, 'climate denying' libertarians in the US & elsewhere!
> 
> ETA this is an essential article by George Monbiot on dark money
> 
> Thinktanks
> *Dark money lurks at the heart of our political crisis*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...y-political-crisis-institute-economic-affairs
> 
> Please everyone. check your sources, it wont be just our country at stake should of the extremists behind the leave campaign get their way.


The article was written by Professor Robert Tombs and Dr Graham Gudgin both from the University of Cambridge and experts in their field..

https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/directory/[email protected]

https://policyexchange.org.uk/author/graham-gudgin/

Are you implying that just because the article appeared in Brexit Central by association they and Cambridge University must also be involved in "the corruption of our democracy"?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Who has blamed brexit for the tories austerity? But brexit will make it nigh on impossible for a progressive party to address it. And the tories will use the chaos as an excuse to ramp it up if they remain in power! Thank fully it appears Corbyn is realising this and changing tack on his brexit position.
> 
> Corbyns voting history speaks for itself  And I'm pretty certain he didn't vote for universal credit Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary??.


When it was being discussed Corbyn went on record as saying he supported the idea in principle, but I cba looking for the record, there's too much brexit stuff to plough through. I think he meant it was a good idea to have all benefits under one umbrella, not that the amounts and how the conservatives were doing it was good. If we get a 'progressive' Government and they use brexit to go back on any promises, they'd be as bad as the rest.

Even if the country is 3.9% worse than it would have been if we stayed in, the country lost a lot more than that in the global crash through banker's neglect and they're at it again. Giving people even higher mortgages that they can't afford than they did last time.

Not improving at the rate we might have done if everything stayed the same would be no excuse. We aren't a third world country and countries worse off than we are manage to educate their people and support their poor. Brexit will be no excuse for anything.


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs May facing questions live in Westminster. She's not really answering the questions about a no deal and if she would really leave without one. 
I dont think she would but she doesn't want to say so as she cant pressurise Mps to vote for her deal if they know she wont really leave without one,


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Which is probably why she's sold more books than I have!


Wow , you're a published author . What sort of books ? .I'm not being sarky but I think you could write novels about the future world and your hopes for it . 
You're easy to read with out being boring .


----------



## stockwellcat.

For those wishing to watch May being grilled in the Liaison Committee.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/6eaccb9b-e1a3-4298-b307-65356415d112


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Mrs May facing questions live in Westminster. She's not really answering the questions about a no deal and if she would really leave without one.
> I dont think she would but she doesn't want to say so as she cant pressurise Mps to vote for her deal if they know she wont really leave without one,


Because parliament rejecting her plan isn't on the agenda.

Whatever happens I imagine May will attempt to press ahead with it, "In the national interest", exercising her Henry VIII powers should she lose.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> For those wishing to watch May being grilled in the Liaison Committee.
> 
> https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/6eaccb9b-e1a3-4298-b307-65356415d112


Are you watching it ? What do you think . 
Shes one tough cookie !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Are you watching it ? What do you think .
> Shes one tough cookie !


She's currently got Sir Bill Cash going at her.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Are you watching it ? What do you think .
> Shes one tough cookie !


She is actually explaining things. Hopefully she will shed some light on what has been agreed?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://brexitcentral.com/impossible-take-treasurys-brexit-impact-assessment-seriously/


I think there are substantial differences in both the UK and global economies of the 1930's and now. And we do need to remember that the extreme BoE figures are worst case scenario and, as Carney said, very unlikely actually to happen.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The article was written by Professor Robert Tombs and Dr Graham Gudgin both from the University of Cambridge and experts in their field..
> 
> https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/directory/[email protected]
> 
> https://policyexchange.org.uk/author/graham-gudgin/
> 
> Are you implying that just because the article appeared in Brexit Central by association they and Cambridge University must also be involved in "the corruption of our democracy"?


Experts? I thought leave supporters had had enough of 'so called experts' 



Elles said:


> When it was being discussed Corbyn went on record as saying he supported the idea in principle, but I cba looking for the record, there's too much brexit stuff to plough through. I think he meant it was a good idea to have all benefits under one umbrella, not that the amounts and how the conservatives were doing it was good. If we get a 'progressive' Government and they use brexit to go back on any promises, they'd be as bad as the rest.
> 
> Even if the country is 3.9% worse than it would have been if we stayed in, the country lost a lot more than that in the global crash through banker's neglect and they're at it again. Giving people even higher mortgages that they can't afford than they did last time.
> 
> Not improving at the rate we might have done if everything stayed the same would be no excuse. We aren't a third world country and countries worse off than we are manage to educate their people and support their poor. Brexit will be no excuse for anything.


In principle with a government that actually wanted to help people it probably would work. The tories UC was destined to fail because it was designed to fail. More of their calculated cruelty so they can steal from the public purse..

Quite. If we get mays deal or no deal there is no way a labour government deliver their progressive reforms. Hence why they can support neither option - & thank god! they appear to moving towards a peoples vote.

More whataboutery. It won't be as bad as the banking crash - they should have put that on the side of the bus!

But from what I can gather its going to be far more damaging than the global banking crash. Which was the result of neoliberalism by the way 

Thats the point Elles - we arent a third world country!

The tories have caused death, misery and suffering on an epic scale yet by your posts, it appears you don't think the opposition should hold this heartless government to account

.,.

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arlene Foster is echoing what other Northern Ireland parties are saying.










Other Northern Ireland parties have said they won't back a second referendum either.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 377991


More blackmail from this vile woman which amounts to, "Back my plan, or else".

We've already heard about the terrible consequences by not doing so.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> We've already heard about the terrible consequences by not doing so.....


Who from?
Mark Carney?
Experts critised him. Read City AM article I linked on here.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Arlene Foster is echoing what other Northern Ireland parties are saying.
> 
> View attachment 377992
> 
> 
> Other Northern Ireland parties have said they won't back a second referendum either.


Well, the DUP wouldn't want to risk undoing something they passionately believe in would they?!

The same article states they would not rule out a Norway+ like deal, that would at least protect FOM rights.

That'll do me for now.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 It's not whataboutery, it's saying that worse than the 3.9% scenario has happened and they used that as an excuse for austerity (supported by the Eu, who also push for austerity measures) and there was no need for it then, they'll be no need for it now.

The banks are heading down the same route, someone needs to rein them in.

That's what will cause it if anything, not brexit.

Don't put words in my mouth thanks. I don't agree with these harsh austerity measures and have never said I do. In fact I have criticised both the Conservative government and the Eu over it. Your posts are provocative, by constantly saying what other posters think, when they haven't said anything of the sort.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 you constantly criticise leave supporters for not linking experts, then when they link expert opinion for you, you take the piss out of them for it?  @Magyarmum often links interesting articles written by experts.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Experts? I thought leave supporters had had enough of 'so called experts' .


You haven't answered my question. But .....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


>


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> @noushka05 you constantly criticise leave supporters for not linking experts, then when they link expert opinion for you, you take the piss out of them for it?  @Magyarmum often links interesting articles written by experts.


But Elles what you don't understand is that her experts are better experts than mine .... in other words they're EXPERT experts whereas mine are just ordinary ones.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> But Elles what you don't understand is that her experts are better experts than mine .... in other words they're EXPERT experts whereas mine are just ordinary ones.


:Hilarious

Looks like the show down between May and Corbyn will be on Sunday instead of Dynasties or maybe its just a nother episode of it


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 377995
> View attachment 377997
> 
> 
> Well, the DUP wouldn't want to risk undoing something they passionately believe in would they?!
> 
> The same article states they would not rule out a Norway+ like deal, that would at least protect FOM rights.
> 
> That'll do me for now.


Fortunately (for me) I suspect that if it came down to the Commons being asked to approve a second referendum to break a Parliamentary logjam where no option could command a majority, the DUP's vote would not be needed.

The only thing that Parliament is practically unanimous about is that No Deal is not a sensible option, and they might, in the end, simply have to go back to the People and seek their instructions.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I can`t see the point in May doing a TV debate, the MPs will have already decided if they are going to vote for her deal or not, pratting about with a TV debate is hardly going to change their mind. They hear and take part in debates about it all the time in the HoC, they are not going to settle down to watch a TV debate and hear something they haven`t heard many times before!


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Looks like the show down between May and Corbyn will be on Sunday instead of Dynasties or maybe its just another episode of it


I'm still struggling to understand what this debate is supposed to prove, let alone decide.

May has taken questions (attacks) on her deal in the Commons for 6 hours already. She isn't going to convince MPs to back her just because she can string a sentence together better than Jezza, and the public verdict on who can better manage not to answer any difficult question is unlikely to sway them either.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> I can`t see the point in May doing a TV debate, the MPs will have already decided if they are going to vote for her deal or not, pratting about with a TV debate is hardly going to change their mind. They hear and take part in debates about it all the time in the HoC, they are not going to settle down to watch a TV debate and hear something they haven`t heard many times before!


Great minds think alike! 

(And fools seldom differ)


----------



## Elles

The Norway Plus option is gaining momentum. 

Back in March, Simon Jenkins’ guardian article on Theresa May and the Norway option:

“Sooner or later, the Commons will debate Norway again: whether the UK should remain within a single market and customs union, however camouflaged. When that happens, May will drive her hard Brexiters into sullen acceptance or resignation. But she can tell them her hands have been tied to a Norwegian mast. If so, history could regard her twisting and tacking, her softly, softly Brexit strategy as the most brilliant of political manoeuvres.”

Lol, they’ve already resigned or accepted. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Anyone see Jeremy Corbyn on This Morning?

The man really hasn't got a clue....

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/t...chofield-Rochelle-Humes-Brexit-news-video/amp


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> Anyone see Jeremy Corbyn on This Morning?
> 
> The man really hasn't got a clue....
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/t...chofield-Rochelle-Humes-Brexit-news-video/amp


*To be fair neither has May.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair neither has May.*


She was in the negotiations he hasn't been. He thinks he can just go over to the EU and say hey I want to change the deal even though the EU Leaders have said it is non-negotiable. Sorry if you support him but my support for Labour disappeared along time ago.


----------



## Elles

I would say it's wrong to dismiss May as clueless. I think she's manipulative and knows what she's doing. I gave up trying to work out Corbyn a while ago. If he's what he looks to be on the surface, he reminds me of Citizen 'Wolfie' Smith without the beret. Although:

https://www.factmag.com/2015/12/14/brian-eno-jeremy-corbyn-hat-stop-the-war-auction/

"trademark black Leninist cap" (or as normal people say, "hat")" :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

BBC 1 offers to clear Sunday 9th December 2018 programmes for Corbyn and May debate.

https://theguardian.com/media/2018/...or-brexit-debate-david-attenborough-dynasties


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @noushka05 It's not whataboutery, it's saying that worse than the 3.9% scenario has happened and they used that as an excuse for austerity (supported by the Eu, who also push for austerity measures) and there was no need for it then, they'll be no need for it now.
> 
> The banks are heading down the same route, someone needs to rein them in.
> 
> That's what will cause it if anything, not brexit.
> 
> Don't put words in my mouth thanks. I don't agree with these harsh austerity measures and have never said I do. In fact I have criticised both the Conservative government and the Eu over it. Your posts are provocative, by constantly saying what other posters think, when they haven't said anything of the sort.


Sorry I get your point now. And I totally agree, they did use the banking crisis to force austerity polices through,

The banks are another issue - but do you seriously believe the tories will reign them in? :Hilarious Elles we know brexit will cause serious harm - and not just to our economy. This is fact. Its all about how bad it will get now. Thats why the world is looking on incredulous are we rip ourselves apart for a blue pass port & a perceived sense of sovereignty we always had.

You did appear to me to be miffed about Corbyn holding the government to account for there inhumane UC. Apologies if I misunderstood.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle though Elles



Elles said:


> @noushka05 you constantly criticise leave supporters for not linking experts, then when they link expert opinion for you, you take the piss out of them for it?  @Magyarmum often links interesting articles written by experts.


It was meant to be a joke. I was just on my way out. But never mind.

There are contrarians in every field Elles, Trump believes the 3% of climate scientists over the 97%. Hard right propagandist outlets only use experts which suit their agenda - and those experts are obviously going to be a tiny minority. Many brexiters refuse to accept the consensual position of experts so these experts are downgraded to 'so called experts'. That never happens to the minority of experts with a contrary position however. They believe in_ those _experts:Meh They reference contrarian experts because it suits their case, and then they'll wilfully blind themselves to the rest. That is the modus operandi of denial. (I'm speaking generally now, but this is has been my experience across social media & in real life debates.)


Magyarmum said:


> You haven't answered my question. But .....


LOL

This is an article about one of the experts you reference MM. Dr Graham Gudgin. This bit was particularly scathing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-down-by-other-trade-economists-a7519596.html

_"The HMT [Treasury] use of gravity model was perfectly in line with best practice. It was classic evidence-based policy analysis", said Richard Baldwin, Professor of International Economics at The Graduate Institute of Geneva

Professor Baldwin went on to accuse Mr Gudgin himself of engaging in "policy-based evidence making" and "using evidence the way a drunk uses a lamp post - for support, not illumination"

Other trade economists also endorsed the Treasury's methodology_.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 No I don't think the government will rein them in, nor are the Eu showing any signs of doing so either, despite expert warnings. 

Corbyn can say what he likes. Conservative MPs are warning the government. I don't agree that all conservatives are the demons you seem to think, some are expressing dissatisfaction over UC and complaining about the dire situations for constituents they see in their surgeries and also expressing concern about the mortgages and loans banks are again pushing. They aren't being listened to either it seems. 

Unfortunately even if Corbyn is the saviour he seems to think he is, he's been too badly discredited now, by press, media, Facebook, twitter and just about everyone else imo. People read more into what he was saying than he actually was eg the student fee debacle and then there was the anti Semitism row, his reluctance over a second referendum and his lack of enthusiasm for a Remain vote. Labour need fresh blood and new leadership in my view if they are to recover and give us a strong and viable opposition.

Personally I'd rather see PR, but that's as likely as a labour government at the moment it would seem. I could be wrong on both counts, it's just my opinion.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I'm still struggling to understand what this debate is supposed to prove, let alone decide.


Panem et circenses, I suspect... A bit like Trump carrying on holding pointless election style rallies now he's president. Classic distraction tactics.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> How far does the pound have to fall during the course of a day to qualify as a 'crash'?


''Crash'' seems to have become the new trendy word (ever since June 2016): as in ''crashing out of EU without a deal''. In 2015 the ''in'' word was ''populism''.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> ''Crash'' seems to have become the new trendy word (ever since June 2016): as in ''*crashing out of EU *without a deal''. In 2015 the ''in'' word was ''populism''.


Ahh. Does that mean we have to leave at least 18% of the EU in order to have crashed out?


----------



## Magyarmum

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-6622_en.htm


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Ahh. Does that mean we have to leave at least 18% of the EU in order to have crashed out?


 


-
*the dailymash*
Thursday, 29th November
*UK economy eight per cent too large, Brexiters agree*
29th November 2018










*Get Daily Mash headlines:* 

*BREXITERS have agreed that the UK's economy is oversized, unwieldy and needs to be trimmed by about eight per cent. *

Senior figures in the Brexit movement have also decided that house prices are on average 30 per cent too high, inflation could do with going up to 6.6 per cent, and there should be more unemployment.

Former Brexit minister David Davis said: "The UK's simply been too successful. This bulldog's too fat.

"To compete in the lean, mean global marketplace we need a slimmer, hungrier Britain, with good high interest rates to encourage mortgage holders to take second jobs in the evening.

"Get out of your comfort zone, people. So what if you can't afford butter? Could Shakespeare? Did Isaac Newton complain about only having one pair of trousers?

"We need to downsize. We need to shed a few pounds. It's diet time, and what could make dieting easier than there being no food?"

Davis added: "Eight per cent is nothing. If we're ambitious, we can halve our economy's size."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> -
> *the dailymash*
> Thursday, 29th November
> *UK economy eight per cent too large, Brexiters agree*
> 29th November 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Get Daily Mash headlines:*
> 
> *BREXITERS have agreed that the UK's economy is oversized, unwieldy and needs to be trimmed by about eight per cent. *
> 
> Senior figures in the Brexit movement have also decided that house prices are on average 30 per cent too high, inflation could do with going up to 6.6 per cent, and there should be more unemployment.
> 
> Former Brexit minister David Davis said: "The UK's simply been too successful. This bulldog's too fat.
> 
> "To compete in the lean, mean global marketplace we need a slimmer, hungrier Britain, with good high interest rates to encourage mortgage holders to take second jobs in the evening.
> 
> "Get out of your comfort zone, people. So what if you can't afford butter? Could Shakespeare? Did Isaac Newton complain about only having one pair of trousers?
> 
> "We need to downsize. We need to shed a few pounds. It's diet time, and what could make dieting easier than there being no food?"
> 
> Davis added: "Eight per cent is nothing. If we're ambitious, we can halve our economy's size."


:Hilarious

I honestly heard a lot of people claim after the referendum that the pound had been overvalued and that its fall was an overdue adjustment and nothing to do with the Leave vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-18-6622_en.htm


Two extracts that stand out to me:










Negotiations are over on the withdrawal agreement. This seems to be so hard for Corbyn and Remain MP's to understand and some remainers as well.










The withdrawal agreement will limit the impact of the UK's withdrawal on both sides of this, that being the UK and EU.

Ratification is now needed in the UK and other European Countries.

And finally this stands out more than above:


> In the coming weeks, British MPs will vote on the Withdrawal Agreement and the text of the Political Declaration. *The future of their country is at stake with this vote*.


We have already been told by various EU leaders that rejecting the withdrawal agreement will mean no deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm still struggling to understand what this debate is supposed to prove, let alone decide.
> 
> May has taken questions (attacks) on her deal in the Commons for 6 hours already. She isn't going to convince MPs to back her just because she can string a sentence together better than Jezza, and the public verdict on who can better manage not to answer any difficult question is unlikely to sway them either.


I think her intention is to publically humiliate Corbyn. As we saw in the snap GE last year where May was expected to win a landslide, he surprised a lot of people.

Coupled with an appallingly bad campaign from May herself he did considerably well under the circumstances.

It could again backfire on her badly.
Let's hope so.

I would've preferred a debate between May and Arlene Foster with Jeremy Kyle as host....


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I think her intention is to publically humiliate Corbyn. As we saw in the snap GE last year where May was expected to win a landslide, he surprised a lot of people.
> 
> Coupled with an appallingly bad campaign from May herself he did considerably well under the circumstances.
> 
> It could again backfire on her badly.
> Let's hope so.
> 
> I would've preferred a debate between May and Arlene Foster with Jeremy Kyle as host....


Haha Jeremy Kyle and Graham with Steve that would have been funny at the debate with Corbyn and May. "It's my show shut up" Kyle would be shouting like he normally does.

May will wipe the floor with Corbyn I am affraid. I wonder what channel it will be on BBC1 or ITV?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I think her intention is to publically humiliate Corbyn. As we saw in the snap GE last year where May was expected to win a landslide, he surprised a lot of people.
> 
> Coupled with an appallingly bad campaign from May herself he did considerably well under the circumstances.
> 
> It could again backfire on her badly.
> Let's hope so.
> 
> I would've preferred a debate between May and Arlene Foster with Jeremy Kyle as host....


With a billion pounds to the winner?


----------



## Arnie83

Not wanting to reopen the debate on the BoE's figures from yesterday, but some information to set against the vilification that Carney has received ...

Carney was "asked by MPs on the Treasury select committee to imagine what could happen to the economy in the *worst possible scenario*".

That scenario required the following: "the UK would need to leave the EU without a deal next spring; that departure would come as a bolt from the blue; and it would prompt punitive action from Brussels."

And as Carney said, it wasn't likely to happen.

I wonder, given those conditions, what sort of figures would be expected by those who have ridiculed what was produced.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Not wanting to reopen the debate on the BoE's figures from yesterday, but some information to set against the vilification that Carney has received ...
> 
> Carney was "asked by MPs on the Treasury select committee *to imagine what could happen to the economy *in the worst possible scenario".
> 
> That scenario required the following: "the UK would need to leave the EU without a deal next spring; that departure would come as a bolt from the blue; and it would prompt punitive action from Brussels."
> 
> And as Carney said, it wasn't likely to happen.
> 
> I wonder, given those conditions, what sort of figures would be expected by those who have ridiculed what was produced.


So we have to go off Carney's imagination now. His imagination got him in trouble last time as well as this time with experts. I would rather not rely on his imagination thank you.

He was telling everyone about no deal not Theresa May's deal. His lies (imagination) I mean predictions are based on no deal. He backs Theresa May's deal and said this to the press.

Let's not forget what the experts said in City AM when they critised him.

His scaremongering was stopped dead in the tracks. Carney should be forced to quit over this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*'A failed, second-tier Canadian politician': Mark Carney's dire Brexit warnings earn the wrath of British politicians*

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/world/article-mark-carneys-dire-brexit-warnings-earn-the-wrath-of-british/

Mark Carney rarely shies away from expressing strong opinions, but the Governor of the Bank of England is facing a backlash over a blunt Brexit analysis that has led to calls that he's hysterical, incompetent and a "failed, second-tier Canadian politician."

------
He should be forced to quit as Governor of the Bank of England over this scaremongering attempt.


----------



## Magyarmum

It was Jacob Rees-Mogg wot called him that!

https://news.sky.com/video/jacob-rees-mogg-savages-second-tier-mark-carney-11566194


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> It was Jacob Rees-Mogg wot called him that!
> 
> https://news.sky.com/video/jacob-rees-mogg-savages-second-tier-mark-carney-11566194


Carney should still be forced to quit. We are being told to rely on his imagination as a reliable source of information.

In that case I am more reliable than him. Brexit won't be that bad. Trust me. So rely on my imagination not his. :Hilarious As Farage said Carney cannot predict past Thursday (that is today). :Hilarious:Hilarious

Carney wants us to trust in his imagination.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> It was Jacob Rees-Mogg wot called him that!
> 
> https://news.sky.com/video/jacob-rees-mogg-savages-second-tier-mark-carney-11566194


Ad hominem attacks are so much easier than factual or well-argued refutations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Ad hominem attacks are so much easier than factual or well-argued refutations.


Carney should still be forced to quit. Experts disagree with him and are still critising him for his attempt to scaremonger yesterday.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Carney should still be forced to quit. We are being told to rely on his imagination as a reliable source of information.
> 
> In that case I am more reliable than him. Brexit won't be that bad. Trust me. So rely on my imagination not his. :Hilarious As Farage said Carney cannot predict past Thursday (that is today). :Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Carney wants us to trust in his imagination.


You do realise that 'thought experiments' are a valid technique used in many fields of research, including very famous scientists?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> You do realise that 'thought experiments' are a valid technique used in many fields of research, including very famous scientists?


Absolute rubbish. So you are saying we should rely on his imagination. Why not mine? Seriously he should go or be forced to quit. He's a joke. Have you seen the amount of experts critising him?

Why should I trust Carney or why should anyone else trust him? He failed last time around and is failing already this time.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Absolute rubbish. So you are saying we should rely on his imagination. Why not mine? Serious he should go. He's a joke. Have you seen the amount of experts critising him?
> 
> Why should I trust Carney or why should anyone else trust him? He failed last time around and is failing already this time.


The scientific community as a whole and at the highest levels disagrees with you regarding the validity of thought experiments.

Mr Carney was ASKED to imagine the absolute worst case Brexit scenario with specific given criteria. What Brexit scenario he personally supports is immaterial, being able to put that to one side and consider the question posed is not a contradiction. He did as he was asked, and stated the conclusions reached were very highly unlikely to happen.

If others have misunderstood the context of what he was asked to do, or if it has been misreported, he can hardly be blamed for that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> The scientific community as a whole and at the highest levels disagrees with you regarding the validity of thought experiments.


Why have you asked them personally in the last hour since you last posted?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Why have you asked them personally in the last hour since you last posted?


Yes, I have a BSc myself 

There is a long, illustrious and productive history of thought experiments in science, some of which have been responsible for very major breakthroughs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Do you know how silly this sounds that we now have to believe that Mark Carney's thoughts must be treated as facts? It sounds ridiculous.

I imagine a lovely UK outside of the EU but I do not say everyone must believe me and that my imagination is factual.

Seriously some people are getting desperate if they want to believe Mark Carney's imagination is factual 

Former Monetory Fund person said Carney was giving misleading information as they were told one thing by Carney when Carney was being grilled at an MP committee and another yesterday. Remainers jump on the bandwagon believing everything Carney said yesterday based on him imagining a senario. It is his imagination which obviously would be negative as he was a remainer. Very subjective opinion Carney gave if you ask me as it is based on his imagination, not factual at all.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you know how silly this sounds that we now have to believe that Mark Carney's thoughts must be treated as facts? It sounds ridiculous.
> 
> I imagine a lovely UK outside of the EU but I do not say everyone must believe me and that my imagination is factual.
> 
> Seriously some people are getting desperate if they want to believe Mark Carney's imagination is factual
> 
> Former Monetory Fund person said Carney was giving misleading information as they were told one thing by Carney when Carney was being grilled at an MP meeting and another yesterday. Remainers jump on the bandwagon believing everything Carney said yesterday based on him imagining a senario. It is his imagination which obviously would be negative as he was a remainer. Very subjective if you ask me.


Nobody here is saying it's anything other than the extreme edge worst case scenario edge of plausibility extrapolation he was ASKED to consider. Nor is he.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Nobody here is saying it's anything other than the extreme edge worst case scenario edge of plausibility extrapolation he was ASKED to consider. Nor is he.


His opinion (and that is all it is), is duly noted and filed away in a dark area of my brain that I tend to ignore. :Hilarious

Now we know it is Mark Carney's imagination that has caused experts to critise him so much we should move on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you know how silly this sounds that we now have to believe that Mark Carney's thoughts must be treated as facts? It sounds ridiculous.
> 
> I imagine a lovely UK outside of the EU but I do not say everyone must believe me and that my imagination is factual.
> 
> Seriously some people are getting desperate if they want to believe Mark Carney's imagination is factual
> 
> Former Monetory Fund person said Carney was giving misleading information as they were told one thing by Carney when Carney was being grilled at an MP committee and another yesterday. Remainers jump on the bandwagon believing everything Carney said yesterday based on him imagining a senario. It is his imagination which obviously would be negative as he was a remainer. Very subjective opinion Carney gave if you ask me as it is based on his imagination, not factual at all.


Economy and markets are very much dependent on imagination.
People invest what they think will do well.. Adivers idę that perception to predict how people will investv...
Do the forecssts are essential , any shifty of trouble and shared go down.. any predictions of a gain, for example a merger and even if the gains due to merger that might not be at all and shares are up.
Markets are mirrors of mirrors, this is how baubles are created.

Markets think pound will go down and shares go down.

I see it daily the prognosis regardless which mostly international company issues letters to their clients there is consensus on Brexit.

Shares will drop.

This is not BoE but forecasts are easily seen in a value of pound

How do you think futures operate?

If enough shareholders think shares are going to lose value and try to get rid of them in mass...

Company whose shares tanked might go down on suspicion alone.

All simulations come to one conclusion: Remain is the best for Britain.

No Deal Brexit is beneficial to Russia. They will gain the ground lost by Britain and EU.

While EU and UK get entangled in trade wars Russia will grab Ukraine and even Baltic States.

Poland is worried too.

Brexit has great impact on world balance of power.


----------



## MilleD

Can someone explain what's actually going on now? I think I've lost the plot....

Is Carney a good guy or a bad guy?


----------



## noushka05

As someone who has always represented the best interests of the people, I would have been dismayed if Corbyn didn't come good on in the end as its perfectly clear to everyone paying attention that Mays brexit or no deal are going to have a serious consequences, and the poorest in our society will be hit the hardest. So this is music to my ears.

*
Labour straight in there with an amendment against the PM's Brexit deal, for the Meaningful Vote debate*


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Can someone explain what's actually going on now? I think I've lost the plot....
> 
> Is Carney a good guy or a bad guy?


You won't find a more distinguished economist than Paul Krugman. Here are his thoughts (warning - they are tweets! lol)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067858070649405445


----------



## Jonescat

Carney is a good guy. It is an absolutely normal part of business planning and risk management to get some one to work on worse case scenarios so that you as the leader can figure out whether or not your business would survive or whether you would need to strengthen parts of it and change others. Whether you do anything about what you are told depends on how you rate the likelihood of the worst case happening. Clearly if you think there is no chance of the worst scenario happening, or you think you are in good shape to survive the impact, then you won't change anything, but if you think there is a chance (for example) that your key supplier supplying the vital widget for your only product might get held up at Dover for weeks, then you will look at other sources, or stockpiling, now so that your business will continue. All Carney has done is give British business some standard scenarios to work to.

As everyone says no-one knows what is going to happen next. But boards across the country are trying to make sure they are still in business in 5 years, and individuals still in a job. Carney is giving them something to plan for, in the absence of any leadership on the matter from anyone in Government. Rest assured if a high profile business fails because of a lack of planning in this way, the newspapers will serve you the CEO's head on a plate. What will truly damn that CEO's reputation is not being able to demonstrate that they had gone through this exercise, when the information was made available to them freely by the BoE.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> You won't find a more distinguished economist than Paul Krugman. Here are his thoughts (warning - they are tweets! lol)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067858070649405445


I posted some of that earlier, and it seems to me pretty consistent with producing a worst case scenario that is unlikely to happen. Hopefully we'll never find out how close or far away it might have been.


----------



## Arnie83

Jonescat said:


> Carney is a good guy. It is an absolutely normal part of business planning and risk management to get some one to work on worse case scenarios so that you as the leader can figure out whether or not your business would survive or whether you would need to strengthen parts of it and change others. Whether you do anything about what you are told depends on how you rate the likelihood of the worst case happening. Clearly if you think there is no chance of the worst scenario happening, or you think you are in good shape to survive the impact, then you won't change anything, but if you think there is a chance (for example) that your key supplier supplying the vital widget for your only product might get held up at Dover for weeks, then you will look at other sources, or stockpiling, now so that your business will continue. All Carney has done is give British business some standard scenarios to work to.
> 
> As everyone says no-one knows what is going to happen next. But boards across the country are trying to make sure they are still in business in 5 years, and individuals still in a job. Carney is giving them something to plan for, in the absence of any leadership on the matter from anyone in Government. Rest assured if a high profile business fails because of a lack of planning in this way, the newspapers will serve you the CEO's head on a plate. What will truly damn that CEO's reputation is not being able to demonstrate that they had gone through this exercise, when the information was made available to them freely by the BoE.


The most obvious proof for anyone who thinks this isn't exactly right is to look at what actually happens when precisely this sort of scenario planning is not undertaken and acted upon.

You get the 2008 crash.


----------



## Arnie83

As expected, this is being mooted as an option to try to force MPs to support May's deal. Apparently they think that the port & stilton might be more important to some back bench Tories than doing what is in the country's interests.

*Grinch Tory whips threaten to cancel Christmas for the sake of Brexit*

According to one scenario floated by the whips, defeat for Mrs May on 11 December could leave the country facing an unprecedented constitutional crisis which could not be allowed to drift on into the New Year. "*There has been talk of Parliament being recalled before the New Year*. The message is vote for the deal or you might not see your families for much of the holidays," said one MP.​


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I posted some of that earlier, and it seems to me pretty consistent with producing a worst case scenario that is unlikely to happen. Hopefully we'll never find out how close or far away it might have been.


I feel its always better to go direct to the best of the best, dont you

I pray so! Unfortunately there still seems to be plenty of people out there willing to take the gamble :/


----------



## Magyarmum

Jonescat said:


> Carney is a good guy. It is an absolutely normal part of business planning and risk management to get some one to work on worse case scenarios so that you as the leader can figure out whether or not your business would survive or whether you would need to strengthen parts of it and change others. Whether you do anything about what you are told depends on how you rate the likelihood of the worst case happening. Clearly if you think there is no chance of the worst scenario happening, or you think you are in good shape to survive the impact, then you won't change anything, but if you think there is a chance (for example) that your key supplier supplying the vital widget for your only product might get held up at Dover for weeks, then you will look at other sources, or stockpiling, now so that your business will continue. All Carney has done is give British business some standard scenarios to work to.
> 
> As everyone says no-one knows what is going to happen next. But boards across the country are trying to make sure they are still in business in 5 years, and individuals still in a job. Carney is giving them something to plan for, in the absence of any leadership on the matter from anyone in Government. Rest assured if a high profile business fails because of a lack of planning in this way, the newspapers will serve you the CEO's head on a plate. What will truly damn that CEO's reputation is not being able to demonstrate that they had gone through this exercise, when the information was made available to them freely by the BoE.


You beat me to it! I was about to point out that working out the best and worst scenarios is or should be, standard business practice.

Believe it or not it's something as individuals we most likely do when for example we're contemplating moving house - we work out how much or little it's going to cost for things like redecorating, new curtains, removal etc. Hopefully the actual cost will work out somewhere in the middle!

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/feasibility-study.asp


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> As expected, this is being mooted as an option to try to force MPs to support May's deal. Apparently they think that the port & stilton might be more important to some back bench Tories than doing what is in the country's interests.
> 
> *Grinch Tory whips threaten to cancel Christmas for the sake of Brexit*
> 
> According to one scenario floated by the whips, defeat for Mrs May on 11 December could leave the country facing an unprecedented constitutional crisis which could not be allowed to drift on into the New Year. "*There has been talk of Parliament being recalled before the New Year*. The message is vote for the deal or you might not see your families for much of the holidays," said one MP.​


Every Christmas many tens of thousands of healthcare, emergency services, utilities, hospitality and other essential services workers sacrifice being with their families for the sake of others.

If any MP is unhappy to sacrifice one lousy Christmas for the sake of the future of the whole country, then they don't deserve to be in office.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Every Christmas many tens of thousands of healthcare, emergency services, utilities, hospitality and other essential services workers sacrifice being with their families for the sake of others.
> 
> If any MP is unhappy to sacrifice one lousy Christmas for the sake of the future of the whole country, then they don't deserve to be in office.


Indeed.

I wouldn't be surprised if May had deliberately postponed the parliamentary vote 'til so close to Christmas so MPs vote it through just so they can have their break over the festive season.


----------



## KittenKong

From Robert Peston:

In my short interview with the PM, here in Argentina at the G20 summit of leading nations, she told me several things of note. 

First she said she would be “very happy to tell President Trump and others that we will have an independent trade policy” - which was a response to my question whether she would tell Trump who is here “to his face” that he was wrong to say her Brexit plan would make it impossible for the US to do a trade deal with the UK. 

We will see if she now delivers on that fighting talk. 

Second, yet again she offered no plan B at all, for when her deal is voted down by MPs - which is what almost all her MP colleagues expect to happen on 11 December (and see the blog I wrote when I disembarked from the her plane earlier this morning for why her refusal to countenance a backup Brexit plan is so perilous for her). 

I could not resist asking her the TINA - “there is no alternative” - question. Sorry. I know it is a cliche. But she did not make the slightest attempt to correct me. 

In fact she doubled down on it by attacking Labour for working “to frustrate Brexit”. She alleged that Corbyn’s amendment to her Brexit motion was “to try and stop us from doing what people asked us to do which is leave the European Union”. 

Her reworked attack on Labour, which will presumably run all the way to the 11 December vote, is that it would keep us in the EU. 

Which is not Labour policy. But it is striking that she now appears to accept that if she cannot deliver her negotiated Brexit, the alternative is staying in the EU - NOT a no-deal Brexit (a number of her Cabinet colleagues are completely explicit that no-deal cannot be an option). 

Third, when I asked her whether the latest immigration stats - which show immigration from OUTSIDE the EU rising sharply - meant that even her ambition of a significant drop in immigration numbers after Brexit might well be for the birds, she said:

“I have been very clear I want to bring net migration down to sustainable levels”. 

Which may sound bland and uncontroversial. But it may matter that she did not repeat her usual mantra of wanting to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands. 

Maybe now that she appears to be in a minority of one in her cabinet in clinging to that elusive and much criticised target, she is quietly dropping it.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> From Robert Peston:
> 
> In my short interview with the PM, here in Argentina at the G20 summit of leading nations, she told me several things of note.
> 
> First she said she would be "very happy to tell President Trump and others that we will have an independent trade policy" - which was a response to my question whether she would tell Trump who is here "to his face" that he was wrong to say her Brexit plan would make it impossible for the US to do a trade deal with the UK.
> 
> We will see if she now delivers on that fighting talk.


This is just another example of her playing with words (or 'lies' because she knows the implication is not going to be realised).

Yes we would have an independent trade policy. And it would be to do whatever we want internationally while sticking remarkably closely to the rules, regulations and standards of the EU. For every extra pound we earned through trade outside the EU we would lose many more through lost trade within it. So our independent, sovereign choice would be to do pretty much what we do now.


----------



## Arnie83

Donald Tusk today:

"If this [May's] deal is rejected in the Commons, we are left with... no deal or *no Brexit at all.*"​
Works for me!


----------



## Jesthar

Jonescat said:


> Carney is a good guy. It is an absolutely normal part of business planning and risk management to get some one to work on worse case scenarios so that you as the leader can figure out whether or not your business would survive or whether you would need to strengthen parts of it and change others. Whether you do anything about what you are told depends on how you rate the likelihood of the worst case happening. Clearly if you think there is no chance of the worst scenario happening, or you think you are in good shape to survive the impact, then you won't change anything, but if you think there is a chance (for example) that your key supplier supplying the vital widget for your only product might get held up at Dover for weeks, then you will look at other sources, or stockpiling, now so that your business will continue. All Carney has done is give British business some standard scenarios to work to.
> 
> As everyone says no-one knows what is going to happen next. But boards across the country are trying to make sure they are still in business in 5 years, and individuals still in a job. Carney is giving them something to plan for, in the absence of any leadership on the matter from anyone in Government. Rest assured if a high profile business fails because of a lack of planning in this way, the newspapers will serve you the CEO's head on a plate. What will truly damn that CEO's reputation is not being able to demonstrate that they had gone through this exercise, when the information was made available to them freely by the BoE.


This. Wish I had more than one 'like' to give you. 

To add an example from my own industry, I'm sure someone somewhere is thinking about what would have to be done if the worst happened and big cities like London or Birmingham could no longer be supplied with potable water. Yes, it's very, very unlikely - but if it DOES happen, won't people be glad we thought about the possibility in advance?


----------



## Magyarmum

Two articles in this morning's Deutsche Welle which I found interesting.

https://www.dw.com/en/post-brexit-uk-wont-use-eu-galileo-satellite-system-british-pm-says/a-46533333

https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-feel-brussels-brexit-bern/a-46526391


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Two articles in this morning's Deutsche Welle which I found interesting.
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/post-brexit-uk-wont-use-eu-galileo-satellite-system-british-pm-says/a-46533333
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-feel-brussels-brexit-bern/a-46526391


Re Gallileo:

A UK minister has resigned saying a row over involvement in the EU's Galileo satellite-navigation system exposes Theresa May's Brexit deal as "naive".

The UK had wanted to stay part of Galileo after Brexit, but the EU said it would be banned from the extra-secure elements of the programme.

Mrs May confirmed on Friday that the UK was pulling out of the project.

*Science minister Sam Gyimah said the row was "a clarion call" and that any deal with Brussels would be "EU first".*​
Not sure why anyone expected anything else; it's what happens in negotiations between 1 country and a much larger bloc of 27.

Hence the pressure on the Swiss in the second article. Perhaps the Tory Brexiters will re-evaluate who actually holds all the cards!


----------



## Elles

No wonder they warn that cyber war is where it’s at for the future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> No wonder they warn that cyber war is where it's at for the future.


Russians already win cyberwar on Brexit and American election, now they can subdue Ukraine and no one to stop them. Baltic States next. 
It reminds somehow of 1930....
Britain in trade war with EU. EU arguing with Trump about NATO.

Look at George Bush.
No matter how you judge him would he ever candidate and at the same time had business deals undisclosed with hostile empire?
Not only legal matter of conflict of interest that must be publicly disclosed but matter of principles.

Both Britain and USA are now in hands of people sadly lacking in that department.

Sadly influenced by such.
Mods, BoJo, Farage are not trustworthy at all.

Trump worst president during my lifetime.

How people can follow such blatant liars?

Sadly it says a lot if does not bother the followers.


----------



## Magyarmum

@cheekyscrip -You'd better watch out what you're wearing for that office party you're going to because "big brother" is watching you! And you'd better behave yourself as well! 

*FASHION'S ROLE IN CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA'S 'CYBER WARFARE,' ACCORDING TO CHRISTOPHER WYLIE*

https://www.wtva.com/content/national/501655412.html?ref=412


----------



## cheekyscrip

Interesting.

I waver between what I should wear and what I would normally wear going out... this is why I am not keen- if I must behave Totally agree, book is judged by the cover.


Magyarmum said:


> @cheekyscrip -You'd better watch out what you're wearing for that office party you're going to because "big brother" is watching you! And you'd better behave yourself as well!
> 
> *FASHION'S ROLE IN CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA'S 'CYBER WARFARE,' ACCORDING TO CHRISTOPHER WYLIE*
> 
> https://www.wtva.com/content/national/501655412.html?ref=412[/QUOT


----------



## Arnie83

Sorry to lower the tone on a Sunday morning, but this is a marvellous typo!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry to lower the tone on a Sunday morning, but this is a marvellous typo!


But he looks like one!!! 
Typo??? Or someone is not a fan?


----------



## Elles

The Eu want to ban those kind of memes. 

Not a typo lol.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The Eu want to ban those kind of memes.
> 
> Not a typo lol.


It's inevitable someone will. The US in particular have the strongest copyright laws going. If anything breaches copyright and the EU are seen to condone that it could be used against them.

It's a shock to discover what's available on You Tube musically. It's a modern day equivalent of pirating. Indeed in the UK a bunch of people making pirate copies of rare Northern Soul singles were given prison sentences recently.

Yet, if they just uploaded them on YT instead that's seen as perfectly acceptable. It's understandable they want to update the rules.

I've seen pro Brexit posts on Facebook criticising the plan and justifying leaving the EU because of it.

As if Theresa May isn't going to control what we can and cannot see! Threads that criticise her will soon be a thing of the past for starters.

I can see the point of view of the copyright holder, especially seeing most films and CDs we could wish for have been released. Downloading it from You Tube could cost a sale of a DVD or CD for example. The other side of the argument is by listening to a track on You Tube might result in going out to buy the full CD or DVD.

Some musicians went as far as wanting the sale of second hand records stopped. As a vinyl fan that is taking things too far.

I recall the '60s Labour government outlawing off shore radio. They were rightfully blamed for that. But Thatcher's Tory government strengthened the act. Radio Caroline were raided with their equipment smashed up with violence used against the crew despite transmitting in International Waters in 1989.

So, yes, people will blame the EU, but others and probably May herself personally will strengthen it.

If the EU didn't propose it, someone else certainly will.

You mentioned memes. Photographs are also the property of the copyright holder.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Eu want to ban those kind of memes.
> 
> Not a typo lol.


I think the EU would make an exception for any rude meme featuring Farage!


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> As if Theresa May isn't going to control what we can and cannot see! *Threads that criticise her will soon be a thing of the past for starters.*


No they really won't. I know you like to sensationalise things and compare government ministers to current/former dictators and such (which is really insulting to those who lived and died under those regimes, but that's another thing..) but people would take your points much more serious without the hyperbole.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> No they really won't. I know you like to sensationalise things and compare government ministers to current/former dictators and such (which is really insulting to those who lived and died under those regimes, but that's another thing..) but people would take your points much more serious without the hyperbole.


Who said anything about sensationalism?

Current and former dictators didn't always start out as dictators. One or two I could mention were democratically elected.

Anyway, I'd better shut up as it seems criticism of the strong and stable one is already becoming frowned upon.....


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Who said anything about sensationalism?
> 
> Current and former dictators didn't always start out as dictators. One or two I could mention were democratically elected.
> 
> Anyway, *I'd better shut up as it seems criticism of the strong and stable one is already becoming frowned upon*.....


If you All remember I said "not another woman" when she became PM as I'd had enough of the last one. Strong and stable more like weak and unstable!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Anyway, I'd better shut up as it seems criticism of the strong and stable one is already becoming frowned upon.....


Really ? There's been a fair amount of criticism about her here on this thread and it doesn't seem frowned on .


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> If you All remember I said "not another woman" when she became PM as I'd had enough of the last one. Strong and stable more like weak and unstable!


Sexist ! 

If the last one was the PM now , we wouldn't be in this mess!
IN what way do you consider her weak? 
I don't why sticking to her guns is considered weak , she is convinced this is the best deal . (That doesn't mean to say she is right , though. )

ETA Remember Spitting Image where a waiter is taking Thatcher's order and he says " and the vegetables ?" and she replies "They'll have the same as me " :Hilarious


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Who said anything about sensationalism?
> 
> Current and former dictators didn't always start out as dictators. One or two I could mention were democratically elected.
> 
> Anyway, I'd better shut up as it seems criticism of the strong and stable one is already becoming frowned upon.....


I said about sensationalism, it's in the post you quoted.

You can criticise her of course, and again you overact as if you are being censored in some way, when that's not the case. Merely saying to be slightly more realistic and you may find people are more likely to listen to you rather than disregard straight away with what you say.


----------



## Arnie83

I don't think May has any aspirations towards, nor chance of, becoming a dictator. She wants to be Maggie II and thinks that being blindly stubborn in the face of reality is the way to do it. I think she's wrong, but I'm sure there are those who admire her for her disingenuous pigheadedness.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well let's see if Labour manage to get enough support for a no confidence vote against the government in the next 8 and half days if the Brexit bill is voted down. Bare in mind Theresa May might be the first PM to be incontempt of Parliament if the legal papers are not disclosed like MP's asked for.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think May has any aspirations towards, nor chance of, becoming a dictator. She wants to be Maggie II and thinks that being blindly stubborn in the face of reality is the way to do it. I think she's wrong, but I'm sure there are those who admire her for her disingenuous pigheadedness.


She seems convinced she has got the best deal she can 
Sorry if this is covering old ground but do you think she did get the best deal? Could she have done better or could anyone for that matter ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> She seems convinced she has got the best deal she can?
> Sorry if this is covering old ground but do you think she did get the best deal? Could she have done better or could anyone for that matter ?


She was the wrong person to do the negotiations. I said this all the way through this. I am saying no more.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> She seems convinced she has got the best deal she can
> Sorry if this is covering old ground but do you think she did get the best deal? Could she have done better or could anyone for that matter ?


It was the only deal available that suited her red lines. Her opposition to immigration and FOM is personal and nothing to do with "National Interest". Indeed the UK has to leave the SM and CU after the transition period because of it.

The referendum has divided the UK between remainers and brexiters.

What does she do? She's divided both camps by her threats and blackmail if people don't back her plan.

Brexiters are divided between no deal or accept her plan as it's better than no Brexit at all.

And remainers are divided between those who refuse to back her plan and those who'll reluctantly accept it in spite of losing their FOM rights as they see it better than no deal.

People fighting amongst themselves is an excellent tried and tested technique.

Perhaps I'd better not say anymore at this point.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> She seems convinced she has got the best deal she can
> Sorry if this is covering old ground but do you think she did get the best deal? Could she have done better or could anyone for that matter ?


I guess it depends a lot on one's definition of 'best'.

Economically, given that the EU were never going to agree a deal that gave us the benefits of membership without the costs and rules, both sides were negotiating a worse deal than what we already had so it was always a lose / lose situation.

Bearing in mind that the actual deal still has to be negotiated, but assuming it's similar to what is implied in the 'Political Declaration' then what she has got probably keeps us as close to the EU as we were likely to get, and thereby mitigates the economic costs. But looking at it with my economics hat on, it's still daft.

For those who are looking at it from the point of view of not following rules over which we don't have complete control, and who therefore simply want to sever all ties in areas where the decisions of the 28 apply to us as a member, then no, she hasn't got a good deal. Assuming we stick to the EU rules It's got to be a worse situation than before since we have no say in them, whereas before we did at least have some influence.

We can choose to diverge, but what stems from that is barriers to trade with the EU and the Irish border problem, so it would be reckless. We really are not going to recoup in new trade deals what we will lose by distancing ourselves from the EU. We're 20 miles or so from France, an inch and a half from Ireland depending on the size of your paintbrush, and 4000 miles from the US. Rocket science it ain't!

I think May's problem was inevitable once she had set out her contradictory Lancaster House 'red lines'. She painted herself into a corner at the behest of the Brextremists with no way out. Either they hadn't thought it through, or they were wildly overoptimistic. She's probably done well given the complete mess she and others made of it at the start, but overall she gets a B- from me.

(Sorry for going on a bit!)


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I guess it depends a lot on one's definition of 'best'.


Good point !


> (Sorry for going on a bit!)


No need to apologise. Its not easy to explain the complicated process in a few paragraphs. Thanks for taking the time to write this. 
Watching it on the telly is doing my head in .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Watching it on the telly is doing my head in .


Switch off the news


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Switch off the news
> View attachment 378782


:Hilarious


----------



## rona

A message from a friend

"It's pretty hard for Britain's friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that's being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn't seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it's baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let's get one thing straight: a negotiation that you're not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation - it's surrender. It's all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain's EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he'd never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she's desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU's palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there's only one 'deal' on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it's terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it's not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It's time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can't make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year - and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world's fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don't need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what's in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently - and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don't need a deal. You don't need Michel Barnier's permission. If Europe knows what's best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain - but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker's tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no 'divorce bill' whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU's property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain's share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn't getting its fair share, it's the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there's no need on Britain's part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn't be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there's no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let's not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don't exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US - but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We're talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It's been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let's not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain's future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain's admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."

Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10...DKTQ0oTB4xgN9RYEA34ojFHKh4Apsl0NvQHnHLXAtbTUg


----------



## stockwellcat.

With time ticking down very quickly now. Rumours from Downing Street is the vote on the 11th December 2018 might be put on hold.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> A message from a friend
> 
> "It's pretty hard for Britain's friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that's being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn't seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it's baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
> 
> Let's get one thing straight: a negotiation that you're not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation - it's surrender. It's all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain's EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he'd never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she's desperate for whatever deal she can get.
> 
> The EU's palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there's only one 'deal' on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it's terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
> 
> But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it's not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It's time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can't make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year - and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world's fifth-largest economy?
> 
> A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don't need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what's in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
> 
> Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently - and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don't need a deal. You don't need Michel Barnier's permission. If Europe knows what's best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
> 
> Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain - but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker's tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
> 
> Fourth, no 'divorce bill' whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU's property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain's share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn't getting its fair share, it's the EU that should be paying Britain.
> 
> Finally, there's no need on Britain's part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn't be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there's no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let's not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don't exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
> 
> Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US - but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We're talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
> 
> UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It's been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let's not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
> 
> As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain's future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain's admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
> 
> Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10...DKTQ0oTB4xgN9RYEA34ojFHKh4Apsl0NvQHnHLXAtbTUg


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> With time ticking down very quickly now. Rumours from Downing Street is the vote on the 11th December 2018 might be put on hold.


I've heard that too. Why? Is it because she believes she won't win it?

Another thing I've heard is the reported Labour mention of a possible, "No confidence" motion in the event of May losing could backfire on them badly.

Tories will of course rally round to protect May and themselves thus will be more likely to vote her deal through.

Idiots. They should've kept their mouths shut.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> A message from a friend
> 
> "It's pretty hard for Britain's friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that's being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn't seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it's baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
> 
> Let's get one thing straight: a negotiation that you're not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation - it's surrender. It's all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain's EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he'd never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she's desperate for whatever deal she can get.
> 
> The EU's palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there's only one 'deal' on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it's terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
> 
> But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it's not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It's time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can't make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year - and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world's fifth-largest economy?
> 
> A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don't need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what's in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
> 
> Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently - and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don't need a deal. You don't need Michel Barnier's permission. If Europe knows what's best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
> 
> Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain - but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker's tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
> 
> Fourth, no 'divorce bill' whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU's property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain's share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn't getting its fair share, it's the EU that should be paying Britain.
> 
> Finally, there's no need on Britain's part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn't be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there's no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let's not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don't exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
> 
> Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US - but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We're talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
> 
> UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It's been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let's not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
> 
> As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain's future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain's admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
> 
> Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10...DKTQ0oTB4xgN9RYEA34ojFHKh4Apsl0NvQHnHLXAtbTUg


"Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia."

If WTO rules work pretty well for Australia, I wonder why they are negotiating a free trade deal with the EU and are apparently keen to do so with the UK?

There is an awful lot in there that is very dubious indeed, but since Mr Abbott is not here to answer, I'll just leave it at that.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015


Tony Abbott? Murdochs Tony Abbott? Tony Abbott the climate change denying ultra right wing extremist? This is another duplicitous liar in the pocket of big business & billionaires - and the world is in the mess its in because people fall for their lies. Abbott is loathed, he is a crook.

Abbott is no friend of our country, he is the friend of Murdoch, the 1%, the filthy fossil fuel industry.






.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I've heard that too. Why? Is it because she believes she won't win it?
> 
> Another thing I've heard is the reported Labour mention of a possible, "No confidence" motion in the event of May losing could backfire on them badly.
> 
> Tories will of course rally round to protect May and themselves thus will be more likely to vote her deal through.
> 
> Idiots. They should've kept their mouths shut.


The vote is going ahead. May has just been talking about it on ITV.

Labour needs support for a vote of no confidence against the Government. If there is not enough support it will cripple Labour I think. Corbyn doesn't realise the deal is not negoitable so he cannot go back to Brussel asking to renegotiate it.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


>


He is a crook.


----------



## noushka05

@kimthecat



KittenKong said:


> It was the only deal available that suited her red lines. Her opposition to immigration and FOM is personal and nothing to do with "National Interest". Indeed the UK has to leave the SM and CU after the transition period because of it.
> 
> The referendum has divided the UK between remainers and brexiters.
> 
> What does she do? She's divided both camps by her threats and blackmail if people don't back her plan.
> 
> Brexiters are divided between no deal or accept her plan as it's better than no Brexit at all.
> 
> And remainers are divided between those who refuse to back her plan and those who'll reluctantly accept it in spite of losing their FOM rights as they see it better than no deal.
> 
> People fighting amongst themselves is an excellent tried and tested technique.
> 
> Perhaps I'd better not say anymore at this point.


Well said. Whoever was doing the negotiating we know any deal could never be as good as the deal we have now, which is what remoaners warned from the beginning - but Mays terrible deal is the result of her red lines on FOM, which confirms her xenophobia. (as if it needed confirming!)


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Tony Abbott? Murdochs Tony Abbott? Tony Abbott the climate change denying ultra right wing extremist? This is another duplicitous liar in the pocket of big business & billionaires - and the world is in the mess its in because people fall for their liars. Abbott is loathed, he is a crook.
> 
> Abbott is no friend of our country, he is the friend of Murdoch, the 1%, the filthy fossil fuel industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Hey, nobody is perfect.


----------



## noushka05

All those who care about the future of our country please watch this brilliant video.

*Stephen Fry*‏Verified account @stephenfry Nov 30
So the second referendum was all Jacob Rees-Mogg's idea! You can see him introduce it to parliament here in the little film we've made that we hope separates real fact from real fear in this vexed issue tearing our poor nation apart...

Brexit: Facts v Fear. (I know some leave supporters on here believed some of these lies)


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Hey, nobody is perfect.


I'm sure Trump said he was


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The vote is going ahead. May has just been talking about it on ITV.
> 
> Labour needs support for a vote of no confidence against the Government. If there is not enough support it will cripple Labour I think. Corbyn doesn't realise the deal is not negoitable so he cannot go back to Brussel asking to renegotiate it.


:Nailbiting


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn doesn't realise the deal is not negoitable so he cannot go back to Brussel asking to renegotiate it.


Another Theresa May soundbite.

You forget Corbyn's red lines differ considerably from Theresa May's, who says they won't listen? Why do some Tories also believe they could do better as well?

Having said that, although Corbyn is a million per-cent preferable to May I don't believe he could get a deal which is better, let alone is as good as what the UK enjoys now.

The financial aspect alone would make it difficult, if not impossible to pursue his anti austerity programme. A "Jobs First" Brexit is as delusional as the rest.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> He is a crook.


He's Count Rugen. Definitely not to be trusted!


----------



## noushka05

@kimthecat @KittenKong Timely tweet from Professor Brian Cox on Mays stupid red lines, (with link to guardian.)

_
May's obsession with removing our freedom of movement makes me so angry. Every poll I've seen suggests that overwhelming majority
of voters do not share her little England mentality. This foolish red line of hers is the reason we have a shit deal on offer._

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ut-norway-style-brexit-compromise-with-labour


----------



## noushka05

I'm with Caroline.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Another Theresa May soundbite.


Actually no.
Junker, Barnier, Tusk, Merkel, Austrian PM, French President and a swathe of other EU leaders have said the deal is not negotiable. The ones who are ignoring this are the remainers. The EU Leaders have also made it clear if this deal, the only deal on the table is voted down by the UK Parliament it is no deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually no.
> Junker, Barnier, Tusk, Merkel, Austrian PM, French President and a swathe of other EU leaders have said the deal is not negotiable. The ones who are ignoring this are the remainers. The EU Leaders have also made it clear if this deal, the only deal on the table is voted down by the UK Parliament it is no deal.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...ns-it-is-not-open-for-renegotiation-1.3710160


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> He's Count Rugen. Definitely not to be trusted!


Who's Count Rugen when he's about?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually no.
> Junker, Barnier, Tusk, Merkel, Austrian PM, French President and a swathe of other EU leaders have said the deal is not negotiable. The ones who are ignoring this are the remainers. The EU Leaders have also made it clear if this deal, the only deal on the table is voted down by the UK Parliament it is no deal.


They did, but that's as far as negotiating with a xenophobic bloody difficult woman is concerned.

Then, I agree with Junker and co. A dream Brexit with unicorns and nostalgia for the past was never going to happen. All pure fantasy, just as Corbyn's, "Not a single job lost" is.

The other alternative is no brexit at all, which is what May herself says to Brexiters as much as she threatens No deal to remainers in order to blackmail people into backing her plan.

Neither of which would be contemplated by parliament as 1). The cost of no deal will be too high and 2). Most MPs are stuck in the, "We must respect the will of the people" from June 2016 mindset.

Both could cost MPs their cushy jobs with double figure percentage annual pay rises.

May will get her deal, I'm sure of it.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> No they really won't. I know you like to sensationalise things and compare government ministers to current/former dictators and such (which is really insulting to those who lived and died under those regimes, but that's another thing..) but people would take your points much more serious without the hyperbole.


Not my words here.
Don't shoot the messenger!


----------



## noushka05

We're little Englanders now thanks to the populist right! 'Make Britain great again' ?? FFS! what a joke!

Italian oncologist Alfredo Addeo once saw Britain as "the prototype of multiculturalism and integration." For him, Brexit was "a slap in the face," and he's left.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-doctors-quit-britain-as-brexit-looms-1543755600?mod=e2tw

*Musa Okwonga*‏: _The one thing a lot of people don't seem to get about Brexit is that the manner of the Leave campaign - full-on xenophobia in those final 6 weeks - has irreparably damaged many people's relationships with the UK. Second referendum or not._


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Who's Count Rugen when he's about?


Hes the man on your Gif. (I had to google it lol)


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Hes the man on your Gif. (I had to google it lol)


Well I gathered that, but wanted to know what his claim to fame was!

Head of another conspiracy to overturn the world by witchcraft or somat like that?????


----------



## KittenKong

Guess they're saving Theresa the job.

She must be delighted.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-doctors-quit-britain-as-brexit-looms-1543755600


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Conservative MPs are warning the government. I don't agree that all conservatives are the demons you seem to think, some are expressing dissatisfaction over UC and complaining about the dire situations for constituents they see in their surgeries and also expressing concern about the mortgages and loans banks are again pus


Tory ideology is toxic. These same MPs voted for policies which they knew would hammer the most vulnerable in our society. I have no time for their faux concern. Have you bothered to check out the voting histories of even so called moderate tory mps?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Well I gathered that, but wanted to know what his claim to fame was!
> 
> Head of another conspiracy to overturn the world by witchcraft or somat like that?????


Blimey. OK.

No idea. I'm only interested in actual facts and evidence, I dont deal in conspiracy theories.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Who's Count Rugen when he's about?


:Wideyed

Have you never seen The Princess Bride?

If you haven't, watch it. One of the bestest films ever.

Infinitely more fun than Brexit!

Edit: Oh and Count Rugen is the baddie.


----------



## KittenKong

http://uk.businessinsider.com/unemp...ing-the-lie-used-to-create-the-numbers-2017-7


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> :Wideyed
> 
> !
> 
> Edit: Oh and Count Rugen is the baddie.


Just like Tony Abbott then. MM chose her gif well:Smuggrin


----------



## Magyarmum

*You haven't even seen the episode where she kills Thatcher yet, say Doctor Who producers*
3rd December 2018










*Get Daily Mash headlines:* 

*DOCTOR Who producers cannot understand why critics are calling the show 'too politically correct' when the episode where she kills Thatcher has yet to screen.*

The new series has so far covered the civil rights movement, the partition of India, why Stalin was right and the evil of white men, all of which are undisputed historical facts.

But the upcoming New Year's Day special where the Doctor kills Margaret Thatcher with a light sabre is expected to ruffle a few feathers.

Producer Carolyn Ryan said: "We've got to remember that this is a show for kids. They're not interested in Daleks or Cybermen. They want the Doctor to tackle the real villains.

"The overarching baddie for the series is capitalism - obviously - but we're dealing with that in all its vile manifestations such as the meat industry, the police, the gender binary and Western science.

"In the special the Doctor arrives in the devastated Britain of 1988, joins the courageous resistance fighting the Thatcher dictatorship, and executes the PM. The last five minutes is happy multicultural Britain dancing around her head on a spike."

Ryan added: "Next series, the Doctor travels to 2016 to stop the Great Disaster of Brexit. None of this is remotely controversial."


----------



## noushka05

IMPORTANT. On the corruption of our BBC.

Scottish Greens, Scott Greer:

The BBC are being played by secretive ultra-right think tanks funded by shadowy corporate interests who want to privatise the NHS. Following this exchange with BBC execs I've asked for further answers in writing. Full exchange




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=376694979538826


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Just like Tony Abbott then. MM chose her gif well:Smuggrin


No need to make a meal out of it!


----------



## KittenKong

Is she now admitting she lied in 2016, or is she lying now?

You decide!

https://www.facebook.com/123798281312883/posts/731844190508286/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> bloody difficult woman


In all fairness May did say she was going to be this in the negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Is she now admitting she lied in 2016, or is she lying now?
> 
> You decide!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/123798281312883/posts/731844190508286/


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> No need to make a meal out of it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


I have now removed you off my temporary ignore list


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Blimey. OK.
> 
> No idea. I'm only interested in actual facts and evidence, I dont deal in conspiracy theories.


I was JOKING!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Is she now admitting she lied in 2016, or is she lying now?
> 
> You decide!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/123798281312883/posts/731844190508286/


Border control has, for me, always been an area where both sides interpreted the phrase to suit their own arguments.

No, we don't have to let in people with heinous criminal records (despite the Mail's best efforts to blame most crime on such people) and yes there are checks at the border. So; control.

But if someone is a perfectly ordinary EU citizen then they can come in and look for a job and we can't stop them. So; no control.

But if after 3 months they haven't got a job then we can chuck them out again. So; control.

Except that we've never enforced that last rule. So; perception of no control, but, in fact, dumbass government, and not the EU's fault.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I dont deal in conspiracy theories.


You told me you like conspiracy theories or at least that is how I intrepretated this 










stockwellcat goes and hides.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> :Wideyed
> 
> Have you never seen The Princess Bride?
> 
> If you haven't, watch it. One of the bestest films ever.
> 
> Infinitely more fun than Brexit!
> 
> Edit: Oh and Count Rugen is the baddie.


My nearest cinema is 50 miles away, unless I go over the border to Slovakia which is only 25 miles. In any case most of the films are dubbed into one or other of the languages as are many of the TV shows. I'll have to wait until they show it on HBO 3!

Is it anything like Game of Thrones?


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> You told me you like conspiracy theories or at least that is how I intrepretated this
> 
> View attachment 378836
> 
> 
> stockwellcat goes and hides.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Not my words here.
> Don't shoot the messenger!
> View attachment 378810


Thats it! I couldn't put my finger on it in my earlier posts, but yours words do come across as tabloid style headlines. Particularly that of the Sun or in this case the Daily Mail!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You told me you like conspiracy theories or at least that is how I intrepretated this
> 
> View attachment 378836
> 
> 
> stockwellcat goes and hides.


----------



## noushka05

Everyone needs to read this, because this is what we are now facing. Brace yourselves!

*
"Brace yourself, Britain. Brexit is about to teach you what a crisis actually is"* - David Bennun

Seven decades of prosperity have lulled the UK into thinking we're special - that disasters only happen to other people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/brexit-britain-crisis-uk?CMP=share_btn_tw

We're not special. If, in a deluded fit of national self-harm that ever more resembles the drift into war in 1914, we allow ourselves to wreck the complicated machinery that underpins our everyday lives without us ever having to think much about it, nobody will be coming to rescue us. Cassandra, as Cassandras are always ready to remind you, was right.
................................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> My nearest cinema is 50 miles away, unless I go over the border to Slovakia which is only 25 miles. In any case most of the films are dubbed into one or other of the languages as are many of the TV shows. I'll have to wait until they show it on HBO 3!
> 
> Is it anything like Game of Thrones?


Having come out in 1987, it's not on at the cinemas any more. Treat yourself to a DVD! 

And no. No it isn't anything like Game of Thrones. There's a LOT more laughs.

If you don't enjoy it I'll donate the price of the DVD to a dog charity!


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Everyone needs to read this, because this is what we are now facing. Brace yourselves!
> 
> *
> "Brace yourself, Britain. Brexit is about to teach you what a crisis actually is"* - David Bennun
> 
> Seven decades of prosperity have lulled the UK into thinking we're special - that disasters only happen to other people
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/brexit-britain-crisis-uk?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> We're not special. If, in a deluded fit of national self-harm that ever more resembles the drift into war in 1914, we allow ourselves to wreck the complicated machinery that underpins our everyday lives without us ever having to think much about it, nobody will be coming to rescue us. Cassandra, as Cassandras are always ready to remind you, was right.
> ................................................................................


All a little overly dramatic though isn't it?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> All a little overly dramatic though isn't it?


From what I've read & heard, it seems totally plausible to me. Why do you think its overly dramatic Mille?


----------



## noushka05

Madness!

Shehab Khan: The UK is walking away from the EU Galileo satellite system post Brexit.
Galileo was deemed crucial to the UK's defence so we invested £1.2bn on it and helped to design it. 
Now we leave without access to it and without the capability to build our own system for a LONG time.

.

.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Madness!
> 
> Shehab Khan: The UK is walking away from the EU Galileo satellite system post Brexit.
> Galileo was deemed crucial to the UK's defence so we invested £1.2bn on it and helped to design it.
> Now we leave without access to it and without the capability to build our own system for a LONG time.
> .


And it's going to cost the UK taxpayer a fortune to erect a "British" version due to a stupid woman being bloody difficult.

Thank goodness for her magic money tree.

Can we expect future Sat Navs to resemble this? For "Village" replace it with "Britain"?

:Hilarious
(Images courtesy of "The Prisoner" tv series. 1967).


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> From what I've read & heard, it seems totally plausible to me. Why do you think its overly dramatic Mille?


So it's plausible that because of Brexit, Britain will turn into Kenya at it's worst? Really?


----------



## Elles

I don’t know enough about it. I presume we’ll either carry on with gps, or pay for access to other satellites for civvy use. As for Defense, if the USA go rogue, I can’t see Galileo protecting Europe from it and really don’t know why Britain would need its own. What do other countries outside of Europe do?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> All a little overly dramatic though isn't it?


Written by a virtually unknown Lecturer in Physics at Nevada-Reno University. His only claim to having knowledge of Britain and the British is that he lived in Kenya as a child.

You might like to read this article written by him for The New Statesman

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...mitism-101-basic-possible-ten-point-explainer


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> And it's going to cost the UK taxpayer a fortune to erect a "British" version due to a stupid woman being bloody difficult.
> 
> Thank goodness for her magic money tree.
> 
> Can we expect future Sat Navs to resemble this? For "Village" replace it with "Britain"?
> 
> :Hilarious
> (Images courtesy of "The Prisoner" tv series. 1967).
> View attachment 378864
> View attachment 378865


:Hilarious

Chunky cracked me up as well:Hilarious (I'm sure you're aware of #vicargate KK?)

_Theresa May has walked away from Galileo, she's planning on having Lynn the Vicar standing on top of Crystal Palace with a telescopic TomTom with people walking aimlessly looking for a signa_l:Hilarious








MilleD said:


> So it's plausible that because of Brexit, Britain will turn into Kenya at it's worst? Really?


I dont think hes saying that at all. Hes talking about how more privileged peoples can't appreciate how fragile civilisation is, because they have never experienced real crisis.

_'talk about "Blitz spirit" comes from people who have never known what it is to truly fear everything crashing down around you._'

If we crash out we are on our own - everything we took for granted stops dead on the 1st of April. We will be thrown into chaos. There will be civil unrest. And the vulture capitalists are circling. Who knows _just_ how bad it will get.



Magyarmum said:


> Written by a virtually unknown Lecturer in Physics at Nevada-Reno University. His only claim to having knowledge of Britain and the British is that he lived in Kenya as a child.
> 
> You might like to read this article written by him for The New Statesman
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...mitism-101-basic-possible-ten-point-explainer


Its an 'opinion' piece - it clearly says so. And its based on sound reason.


----------



## noushka05

Seen this @KittenKong ? Genius:Hilarious

(CAUTION RUDE WORDS)


----------



## Magyarmum

@noushkao5 said

"Its an 'opinion' piece - it. clearly says so *And its based on sound reason".*

That's where I disagree with you. He's basing it on his experience of one African ex colonial country where tribal animosity, rivalry and hatred were the major factors as they were in many of the conflicts and coups that took place in various countries throughout Africa. Think Rwanda for example.

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/02/...nya-announces-crushing-of-attempted-coup.html

*"I dont think hes saying that at all. Hes talking about how more privileged peoples can't appreciate how fragile civilisation is, because they have never experienced real crisis".*

That's a very sweeping statement he's making about a whole section of society and one which you apparently believe. I think both he and you are talking rubbish especially if you're going to point out all the privileged are members of the Tory party. Perish the thought any of them are Labour.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ion-state-funded-salary-and-pension-revealed/

No one can be more privileged than Princes William and Harry and no one can say that losing their mother wasn't a crisis that affects them to this day What about all the work he does in Africa are they the actions of an indifferent person?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...britains-leading-philanthropists-1212441.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/debretts-500-list-philanthropists-activists/

No doubt you'll reply telling me the rich are only charitable because donations are tax deductible!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think the vote is the least of TM's worries at the moment.


























https://news.sky.com/story/live-pm-at-least-90-votes-short-of-brexit-deal-support-11570544


----------



## noushka05

I probably didn't phrase that very well @Magyarmum . I'm not speaking about class or wealth (and neither is the author). Privilege was perhaps not the best word of choice. He is speaking about a society which has known only peace & stability for decades about to throw everything into crisis - because it has no recollection of what real crisis is.

_That's what a seven-decade period of general peace and collective prosperity does for you. It makes you think it's normal, rather than a hard-won, fragile rarity in history_
_
We're not special. If, in a deluded fit of national self-harm that ever more resembles the drift into war in 1914, we allow ourselves to wreck the complicated machinery that underpins our everyday lives without us ever having to think much about it, nobody will be coming to rescue us_


----------



## stockwellcat.

There will be a reply from the Speaker of the House on the contempt allegations tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> That's where I disagree with you. He's basing it on his experience of one African ex colonial country where *tribal animosity, rivalry and hatred were the major factors* as they were in many of the conflicts and coups that took place in various countries throughout Africa. Think Rwanda for example.


I agree that the the piece warns of outcomes that are very unlikely. But allowing for the quite thin "first world" veneer that tones them down a bit - e.g. "discomfort" rather than "hatred", say - and what you have described above remains a not insignificant factor behind the situation in which we now find ourselves.


----------



## noushka05

Yep


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I think the vote is the least of TM's worries at the moment.
> 
> View attachment 378922
> 
> View attachment 378923
> 
> View attachment 378924
> 
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/live-pm-at-least-90-votes-short-of-brexit-deal-support-11570544


BREAKING.

They've just published it!


----------



## Arnie83

Breaking news: ECJ Advocate General says that the UK CAN unilaterally revoke Article 50.

Don't know if that's the official judgement, but presumably he should know!

Interesting.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Breaking news: ECJ Advocate General says that the UK CAN unilaterally revoke Article 50.
> 
> Don't know if that's the official judgement, but presumably he should know!
> 
> Interesting.


Finally a glimmer of real hope


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry to disappoint you @Arnie83 his opinion is none binding


> Campos Sanchez-Bordona, the European Court of Justice's advocate general, told the EU's top court it should allow the UK to withdraw its notice of intent to leave the bloc.
> 
> Although his opinion is not binding, the ECJ tends to follow the advocate general's stance in its final rulings.


https://news.sky.com/story/amp/top-...n-halt-brexit-by-revoking-article-50-11571293

It is not the ruling of the ECJ.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Yep


Is this supposed to be ironic?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Breaking news: ECJ Advocate General says that the UK CAN unilaterally revoke Article 50.
> 
> Don't know if that's the official judgement, but presumably he should know!
> 
> Interesting.


It is his opinion nothing else. No ruling has been made yet. His opinion is not binding. It is a none starter story.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1204/1014981-brexit-article-50/


Tony Connelly

✔@tconnellyRTE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069868322714468352
Advocate General Campos Sánchez-Bordona proposes that the Court of Justice should declare that Article 50 TEU allows the unilateral revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw from the EU


66
9:17 AM - Dec 4, 2018​


----------



## stockwellcat.

The problem some remainers have is the Conservative Party want Brexit and so do Labour. You won't get the unilateral revocation of Article 50 as the 2 main parties want Brexit to happen.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Is this supposed to be ironic?


What do you think? :Watching

David Schneider also on razor sharp form this morning.
*
2016: "I see no downside to Brexit. Only a considerable upside"*
*
2018: "Some foods will run out in supermarkets - it will be a bit like the USSR* >>>>>
_

mind-boggling discussions taking place in cabinet about how to ration supplies entering UK by ferry in a no-deal scenari_o
https://www.ft.com/content/9e3bda3a-f720-11e8-af46-2022a0b02a6c …
via @GeorgeWParker and @JamesBlitz @FT


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Finally a glimmer of real hope


From Sky News ...

Campos Sanchez-Bordona, the European Court of Justice's advocate general, told the EU's top court it should allow the UK to withdraw its notice of intent to leave the bloc. *Although his opinion is not binding, the ECJ tends to follow the advocate general's stance in its final rulings.*​
So presumably not final yet, but Maugham seems satisfied, and he knows better than I do!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> From Sky News ...
> 
> Campos Sanchez-Bordona, the European Court of Justice's advocate general, told the EU's top court it should allow the UK to withdraw its notice of intent to leave the bloc. *Although his opinion is not binding, the ECJ tends to follow the advocate general's stance in its final rulings.*​
> So presumably not final yet, but Maugham seems satisfied, and he knows better than I do!


Caroline Lucas's reaction 
_
A welcome and significant opinion on #Art50 by the Advocate General, because - if confirmed by the Court - it further undermines Theresa May's threat of 'no deal' if MPs vote down her deal. MPs *can* take back control, and can block a 'no deal' Brexit_
_
............................_


----------



## Elles

So if they wish, the British government can ignore the vote and stay in the Eu. Remain supporters want that? Crazy.

Disorderly exit = worse case scenario = not going to happen. That isn't brexit and Britain isn't Russia in the 70s. People taking worse case scenario and exaggerating it is why no one listens.

There is a problem with insulin globally, so people have more to worry about than brexit. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic so we don't see what's actually going on. Let's blame brexit and leave voters for pharma having us by the proverbial and the diabetes epidemic.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/21/health/global-insulin-shortage-diabetes-intl/index.html

*40 million people with diabetes will be left without insulin by 2030, study predicts*

*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-46354989*

Why has insulin, a 97-year-old drug, which was hailed as one of the first "wonder drugs" of the 20th Century, remained consistently expensive over the years?

One reason, say scientists, is that three multinational companies - Novo Nordisk, Eli Lilly and Company, and Sanofi - control 99% of the $21bn (£16bn) global insulin market in terms of value and 96% in terms of volume. (The same companies control the entire US market.)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just another day in the post referendum world of the UK.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So if they wish, the British government can ignore the vote and stay in the Eu. Remain supporters want that? Crazy.
> 
> Disorderly exit = worse case scenario = not going to happen. That isn't brexit and Britain isn't Russia in the 70s. People taking worse case scenario and exaggerating it is why no one listens.
> 
> There is a problem with insulin globally, so people have more to worry about than brexit. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic so we don't see what's actually going on. Let's blame brexit and leave voters for pharma having us by the proverbial and the diabetes epidemic.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/21/health/global-insulin-shortage-diabetes-intl/index.html
> 
> *40 million people with diabetes will be left without insulin by 2030, study predicts*
> 
> *https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-46354989*
> 
> Why has insulin, a 97-year-old drug, which was hailed as one of the first "wonder drugs" of the 20th Century, remained consistently expensive over the years?
> 
> One reason, say scientists, is that three multinational companies - Novo Nordisk, Eli Lilly and Company, and Sanofi - control 99% of the $21bn (£16bn) global insulin market in terms of value and 96% in terms of volume. (The same companies control the entire US market.)


You're trying to play down the seriousness of a no deal when the evidence is clear that it will bring complete chaos as supply chains choke up.

So whats your excuse for shortages of radioisotopes for cancer patients? If we crash out there wont just be insulin shortages !. Have you thought about how frightened (informed) people who rely on medicines might be feeling? - or who have loved ones who need medicines? Real peoples lives are stake here Elles  And for sod all!

*Brexit news: Matt Hancock refuses to rule out deaths from medicine shortages if UK crashes out of EU with no-deal*

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-shortages-in-uk-crashes-out-of-a3990706.html


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Caroline Lucas's reaction
> _
> A welcome and significant opinion on #Art50 by the Advocate General, because - if confirmed by the Court - it further undermines Theresa May's threat of 'no deal' if MPs vote down her deal. MPs *can* take back control, and can block a 'no deal' Brexit
> 
> ............................_


Precisely; assuming ECJ ratification it is under our sovereign control and we don't slide inexorably into No Deal. A No Deal result would be a conscious decision by the government, and that simply isn't going to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Precisely; assuming ECJ ratification it is under our sovereign control and we don't slide inexorably into No Deal. A No Deal result would be a conscious decision by the government, and that simply isn't going to happen.


No Deal is what will happen if Parliament vote down the Withdrawal Agreement. Some remainers won't listen to the warnings given by the EU leaders regarding this and some remainers think they can magically stop brexit when both main parties of the UK Parliament want Brexit to happen. Barnier, Tusk, Junker and a swathe of other EU Leaders have said that the deal on the table is the only deal and is not negotiable so if rejected by the UK Parliament it is no deal. If you really think the UK Parliament can stop no deal happening I am sorry but you are really blinded by your campaign to stop brexit and this is causing you not to listen to what is being said. But hey the remainers are leading the UK to a no deal by voting the deal down. Corbyn is wrong as well thinking he can march over to the EU and demand better terms. That time is now passed.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So if they wish, the British government can ignore the vote and stay in the Eu. Remain supporters want that? Crazy.


If they wish, and hopefully after they get the approval of Parliament, then yes they can stay in the EU. I would prefer them to go back to the People and put it to them before doing so, but factually that isn't necessary, and never was.



Elles said:


> Disorderly exit = worse case scenario = not going to happen. That isn't brexit and Britain isn't Russia in the 70s. People taking worse case scenario and exaggerating it is why no one listens.


Almost certainly not going to happen, but it is the worst case scenario, and if we are confident of dealing with that then we can be very confident of dealing with less extreme and more likely scenarios. Not sure who is exaggerating it, since by definition a worst case scenario should bit be amenable to sensible exaggeration.

And I must say if people aren't listening then that's down to them not understanding what has been required and delivered. The Treasury select committee told the BoE to come up with the worst case scenario and see what could happen. They did as they were told. I even saw on another site someone calling for Carney's resignation, simply for doing what he was ordered to do! How daft is that!?

Edit: In fact right now the BoE bods, including Carney, are being grilled by another select committee (it's on BBC Parliament). The questions are sensible and measured, and so are the answers. It is clear that the MPs on the committee are not of the knee-jerk mouth-frothing variety that dismissed the reported figures without actually knowing what they were talking about. It's a shame that so many people don't take the time and make the effort to seek facts before leaping to totally unjustified conclusions. But c'est la vie.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So if they wish, the British government can ignore the vote and stay in the Eu. Remain supporters want that? Crazy.


Yes, that would be crazy, hence the campaign for a PV. Brexiters are terrified of the prospect and many Remainers don't like the thought of it either.

I believe not only would it show any changes of opinion over the last couple of years it's also a way of telling May her plan doesn't have public support, however much she bleats on about delivering the Brexit people voted for. We know many Brexiters and Remainers oppose it equally for obviously different reasons.

Of course a PV could result in No deal. I'm sure the media will successfully persuade many to back that.

But I'd rather that won on warnings of rationing, stockpiling and job losses than the lies of "350m for the NHS" and threats of the population of Turkey moving to the UK.


----------



## Elles

Exaggeration = USSR

Britain can’t end up the same as old Russia, we don’t have the weather, or the gulags. Even if there is a shortage of lettuce out of season, it would in no way compare to the USSR before it’s collapse and Mark Carney’s worse case scenario didn’t suggest it. His worst case scenario included the Eu punishing us and our leaving suddenly without notice and it still wasn’t that bad.

If we had voted to stay in the Eu, but the government forced us to leave anyway.. Suggesting that it’s ok for the government to vote and stay in, that’s the precedent being set. It seems some Remainers actually want a dictatorship. I think it’s crazy, another vote maybe, but not just ignoring the referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

Just a final point on the BoE figures. The select committee today included Steve Baker; leading light of the ERG. He has just told Carney & co. that he had nothing but admiration and praise for their work, which did nothing more than fulfill the brief given to them by the Committee. There wasn't even a sting in the tail. He tried to tie No.10 into the timing of the report's release, but was assured by both Carney and the Committee's chair that it was entirely at the request of the Committee and nothing to do with May.

Most people weren't watching, and it won't get reported. Those whose knee-jerk reaction was "Project Fear!!" and even "Project Hysteria!!!" will not admit they were talking nonsense. What a pity that such an important subject is driven by assumption and emotion, while facts are either hidden, ignored, or both.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> What a pity that such an important subject is driven by assumption and emotion, while facts are either hidden, ignored, or both.


Carney's imagination is not fact. Sorry if you feel it is. He was asked to imagine the worst case senario. It is not fact.

Not getting involved in this silly banta again.


----------



## KittenKong

Utter vomit.

They really do believe people are stupid don't they.

Shows how desperate May is to get her deal past which could backfire on her.

After all, how often do MPs actually listen to their constituents?!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Suggesting that it's ok for the government to vote and stay in, that's the precedent being set. It seems some Remainers actually want a dictatorship


Who suggested that?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> What do you think? :Watching
> 
> David Schneider also on razor sharp form this morning.
> *
> 2016: "I see no downside to Brexit. Only a considerable upside"
> 
> 2018: "Some foods will run out in supermarkets - it will be a bit like the USSR* >>>>>
> _
> 
> mind-boggling discussions taking place in cabinet about how to ration supplies entering UK by ferry in a no-deal scenari_o
> https://www.ft.com/content/9e3bda3a-f720-11e8-af46-2022a0b02a6c …
> via @GeorgeWParker and @JamesBlitz @FT


Monkey tennis?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just been flicking though some of the posts on here on both sides and I've never read so much twaddle in my life, none of us really now what the deal is, just bits and pieces they leak out some true and some not. It's about time they told us the truth.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I just been flicking though some of the posts on here on both sides and I've never read so much twaddle in my life, none of us really now what the deal is, just bits and pieces they leak out some true and some not. It's about time they told us the truth.


Please feel free to read it and then you will know the facts. You won't need to be told then as you will have read it for yourself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Just a final point on the BoE figures. The select committee today included Steve Baker; leading light of the ERG. He has just told Carney & co. that he had nothing but admiration and praise for their work, which did nothing more than fulfill the brief given to them by the Committee. There wasn't even a sting in the tail. He tried to tie No.10 into the timing of the report's release, but was assured by both Carney and the Committee's chair that it was entirely at the request of the Committee and nothing to do with May.
> 
> Most people weren't watching, and it won't get reported. Those whose knee-jerk reaction was "Project Fear!!" and even "Project Hysteria!!!" will not admit they were talking nonsense. What a pity that such an important subject is driven by assumption and emotion, while facts are either hidden, ignored, or both.


I agree. Unfortunately Remainers are just as bad with it. They're taking the information, adding some embellishment of their own making and putting it out there, adding fuel to the fire and giving those who say it's project fear ammunition. Mark Carney said he was asked to assess specific situations and what might happen, given 2+2=4. That's what he and his team did. It's their job. He also stressed that the worst case scenario he was given wouldn't happen. We aren't going to suddenly leave with no notice and the Eu aren't going to punish us. If they are, then we can leave and stuff them. They're supposed to be Mr Spock, not Dr Evil. Carney said if anything did happen, we're prepared. To make sure that any event has as little impact as possible. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.


----------



## noushka05

I've just seen this and had to share it on here. Nuttall....:Hilarious












Elles said:


> Exaggeration = USSR
> 
> *Britain can't end up the same as old Russia, we don't have the weather, or the gulags*. Even if there is a shortage of lettuce out of season, it would in no way compare to the USSR before it's collapse and Mark Carney's worse case scenario didn't suggest it. His worst case scenario included the Eu punishing us and our leaving suddenly without notice and it still wasn't that bad.
> 
> If we had voted to stay in the Eu, but the government forced us to leave anyway.. Suggesting that it's ok for the government to vote and stay in, that's the precedent being set. It seems some Remainers actually want a dictatorship. I think it's crazy, another vote maybe, but not just ignoring the referendum.


:Wideyed

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................



Happy Paws said:


> I just been flicking though some of the posts on here on both sides and I've never read so much twaddle in my life, none of us really now what the deal is, just bits and pieces they leak out some true and some not. It's about time they told us the truth.


This is what we do know about the deal explained in 60 seconds HP >>>


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069365810051862528
,,,


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Who suggested that?


You did, so did @noushka05 as do some people generally. Reportedly. @KittenKong didn't however. Both yourself and Noushka have suggested that staying in without holding a second referendum would be fine, from what I've read this morning.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You did, so did @noushka05 as do some people generally. Reportedly. @KittenKong didn't however. Both yourself and Noushka have suggested that staying in without holding a second referendum would be fine, from what I've read this morning.


I would prefer a peoples vote actually Elles. However if it means crashing out and the dire consequences that will bring, then revoking article 50 is the only sane option.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You did, so did @noushka05 as do some people generally. Reportedly. @KittenKong didn't however. Both yourself and Noushka have suggested that staying in without holding a second referendum would be fine, from what I've read this morning.





Arnie83 said:


> If they wish, and hopefully after they get the approval of Parliament, then yes they can stay in the EU. *I would prefer them to go back to the People and put it to them before doing so*, but factually that isn't necessary, and never was.


I said it was factually possible, not fine. As per the above.


----------



## Elles

I read ‘hopefully’ and ‘prefer’ to mean ‘don’t mind’.

I would be strongly against remaining in the Eu without a second referendum. The government can’t be permitted to just do what it likes in such an overt and obvious manner. I can’t imagine for one second that the French would put up with it, maybe we should follow their example? We got a referendum without having to riot for it, we live in a democracy. The government of the day promised to abide by it. A second referendum wouldn’t be a problem in my view and some wouldn’t agree with me on that, but just staying in on the current government’s say so would be totally unacceptable.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I read 'hopefully' and 'prefer' to mean 'don't mind'.
> 
> I would be strongly against remaining in the Eu without a second referendum. The government can't be permitted to just do what it likes in such an overt and obvious manner. I can't imagine for one second that the French would put up with it, maybe we should follow their example? We got a referendum without having to riot for it, we live in a democracy. The government of the day promised to abide by it. A second referendum wouldn't be a problem in my view and some wouldn't agree with me on that, but just staying in on the current government's say so would be totally unacceptable.


I think the only people who would be against another referendum are leave voters worried that other leave voters had changed their mind and remain voters worried that enough leave voters hadn't.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I read 'hopefully' and 'prefer' to mean 'don't mind'.
> 
> I would be strongly against remaining in the Eu without a second referendum. The government can't be permitted to just do what it likes in such an overt and obvious manner. I can't imagine for one second that the French would put up with it, maybe we should follow their example? We got a referendum without having to riot for it, we live in a democracy. The government of the day promised to abide by it. A second referendum wouldn't be a problem in my view and some wouldn't agree with me on that, but just staying in on the current government's say so would be totally unacceptable.


When I say 'prefer' it indicates a preference.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> I think the only people who would be against another referendum are leave voters worried that other leave voters had changed their mind and remain voters worried that enough leave voters hadn't.


I'm far from certain that the decision would be any different, but I definitely think that another referendum should be held to see what the People think now that a lot more facts are available regarding what Brexit actually looks like, where before there was virtually none.


----------



## Elles

So you’d prefer there to be a people’s vote, but would accept remaining without it? 

You still haven’t said that you wouldn’t support staying in without a further vote, but on the government’s say so?


----------



## Elles

I’m not arguing whether there should be a second referendum or not, that’s an entirely different conversation.

I’m arguing against our government going against what people have voted for. Whether that’s to leave the Eu, stay in the Eu, or live on grapes for a week. People voted to leave the Eu. The government promised to abide by the result of the referendum, they didn’t say it was an advisory poll and they’d consider the result. They said referendum, abide by.

If the government now do what they want to do, without a second referendum, forget democracy. They’ll do what they like, whenever they like and probably change a few rules, or laws to make sure of it. Our vote would become worthless, or at the very least, many would view our vote as worthless. That’s not good.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Whoops. It seems a due process has been skipped by the opposition parties on their motion for a contempt of Parliament against the Government. It should have been sent to the committee for scrutinisation first before the motion was presented. The leader of the house has asked that if the motion is passed that it is sent to committee.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So you'd prefer there to be a people's vote, but would accept remaining without it?
> 
> You still haven't said that you wouldn't support staying in without a further vote, but on the government's say so?


I would not support staying in without a further vote, solely on the government's say so.

I would support even less the government allowing the UK to leave the EU without any sort of deal designed to soften the significant impact on the country's people. The government's primary responsibility is to act in the national interest and there comes a point where that interest trumps a small majority in an uninformed non-binding referendum. The alternative inevitability of a No Deal Brexit would, for me, be that point.


----------



## Elles

The government cannot be permitted to do a bad job and take the country in the opposite direction to one it voted on. Nor can opposition be allowed to overturn a public vote in this way.

If the country had voted in favour of remaining in the Eu and the government were able to prove that leaving may be economically better, maybe having given the Eu concessions to benefit officials, or the Eu taking advantage of the knowledge gained from the vote and negotiating new deals, should the government then have the right to decide? Or maybe if we voted in a ‘leave’ supporting government and they take us out, believing it would be in the country's best interest.

I think it’s strange that people would accept the government overturning a vote in their favour, regardless of consequence. If the consequence of leaving with no deal is unacceptable to the majority and we don’t actually know that, then the government and Eu needed to come up with an acceptable deal, not just overturn the vote. 

If the country will be worse off outside of the Eu, and not just economically, then it needs to be proven to the people and put to the people.

It’s really surprising to me that anyone thinks anything else. Maybe I’m naive as to the lengths staunch Remainers will go to in order to get what they want. I see this as undermining democracy and something that shouldn’t even be considered.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The government cannot be permitted to do a bad job and take the country in the opposite direction to one it voted on. Nor can opposition be allowed to overturn a public vote in this way.
> 
> If the country had voted in favour of remaining in the Eu and the government were able to prove that leaving may be economically better, maybe having given the Eu concessions to benefit officials, or the Eu taking advantage of the knowledge gained from the vote and negotiating new deals, should the government then have the right to decide? Or maybe if we voted in a 'leave' supporting government and they take us out, believing it would be in the country's best interest.
> 
> I think it's strange that people would accept the government overturning a vote in their favour, regardless of consequence. If the consequence of leaving with no deal is unacceptable to the majority and we don't actually know that, then the government and Eu needed to come up with an acceptable deal, not just overturn the vote.
> 
> If the country will be worse off outside of the Eu, and not just economically, then it needs to be proven to the people and put to the people.
> 
> It's really surprising to me that anyone thinks anything else. Maybe I'm naive as to the lengths staunch Remainers will go to in order to get what they want. I see this as undermining democracy and something that shouldn't even be considered.


Let me clarify: Revoking Article 50, and thereby avoiding leaving the EU without a deal, does not have to mean that the country will forever remain in the EU, but it does provide a route to prevent us crashing out with No Deal and all the damage that would do. That is all I would want to see the revocation used for, since the government kicked off this mess with the original referendum and it should be finished that way.

For the result of the first referendum to be overturned and the matter closed for the foreseeable future I would want to see a second referendum and a decision by the People so to do.

(What I don't actually know is whether the A50 timetable can be paused, or whether it would have to start again. But that's another matter.)

As for proving that the country is "worse off" outside the EU, beyond simple economics that is a subjective judgement so cannot be proven. If people value their false impression of total independence above the economic prosperity of the country, that's up to them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Government loses amendment to the motion. MP's reject government amendment 311 votes to 307.

The amendment was the governments attempt to refer the motion to Commons Privileges Committee.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's now voting on motion question set out by Keir Starmer that the Government is in contempt of Parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's voted to hold Government in contempt of Parliament. 311 votes to 293. 

Government has responded saying they will publish the full legal advice on Brexit. Parliament want the full Brexit legal advice publishing immediately.


----------



## rona

A sad day for democracy


----------



## stockwellcat.

Parliament will never be trusted again if they fail to implement Brexit.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament will never be trusted again if they fail to implement Brexit.


It will be a dictatorship if they get away with this  

If you shout loud enough.................


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> It will be a dictatorship if they get away with this


I totally agree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's are the most two faced double crossing people around.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> A sad day for democracy


How so?


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> A sad day for democracy


This is exactly how our democracy works.

The brexiteers all wanted our government and those in the HOC to control our country, and that's what's actually happening today.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament will never be trusted again if they fail to implement Brexit.


How can they really implement it?

It's like getting angry that you cannot find a unicorn, so much was promised that it's pretty much impossible to come up with something that they can all agree on.

Why are people getting angry at the thought of not making the country unstable and less safe? Surely that comes first in a country, then you can want soundbites?


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> How can they really implement it?
> 
> It's like getting angry that you cannot find a unicorn, so much was promised that it's pretty much impossible to come up with something that they can all agree on.
> 
> Why are people getting angry at the thought of not making the country unstable and less safe? Surely that comes first in a country, then you can want soundbites?


Sorry. And you are?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> A sad day for democracy





stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament will never be trusted again if they fail to implement Brexit.


Parliament is taking back control. How is that a sad day for democracy?


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Parliament will never be trusted again if they fail to implement Brexit.


and you trust them now


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry. And you are?


My username answers that one for you, so your post was pretty much redundant, no?


----------



## stockwellcat.

No Parliament is not taking back control. The UK voted to leave. The back stabbing, 2 faced MP's are going against what they agreed to with an overwhelming majority by voting in article 50 etc. They are creating a political crisis.


----------



## noushka05

YEY

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas
So our joint motion of censure has passed - 311 votes to 293. This is unprecedented - and the Government will be forced to publish. Important restatement of parliamentary sovereignty


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry. And you are?


How rude SWC!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How rude SWC!


So are you sometimes telling me how wrong I was to vote leave. I don't have ago at you for voting remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I will leave this with you remainers. Parliament will be incontempt of the UK public if it does not implement Brexit. The UK voted to leave the EU on the 23rd June 2016 if Parliament do not deliver they are incontempt of the UK public.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> No Parliament is not taking back control. The UK voted to leave. The back stabbing, 2 faced MP's are going against what they agreed to with an overwhelming majority by voting in article 50 etc. They are creating a political crisis.


What is happening today is exactly what every Brexiteer has demanded, the MP'are doing their duty here, they are not two faced, they are using their power to hold the government to account.

Cameron created the political crisis, if you cannot clearly see that Brexit is the political crisis and nobody can pull it off because there has to be certain deals done regardless, and then nobody is happy.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So are you sometimes telling me how wrong I was to vote leave. I don't have ago at you for voting remain.


If you say so


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you say so


But I do say yes. Like you and other remainers have had a say in the last 18 months or so.


----------



## kimthecat

I wish they had offered a referendum years ago , I think the majority would have been much larger for Leave.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hurray my ignore list works.


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> How rude SWC!


Thanks Noush, but I'm fine with it. I'm clearly not some Anon or something without a profile photo or just joining here for political reasons.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Hurry my ignore list works.


It's a great tool and it's great fun trying to work out who other members are replying too 

It saves a *lot *of time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

No matter how much remainers go on. Let this be clear. If I have to I will vote leave again and so will everyone I know and that is alot of people if we have to.


----------



## emmaviolet

If you don't like the truth, ignore it. 

Sounds about right to me.


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Thanks Noush, but I'm fine with it. I'm clearly not some Anon or something without a profile photo or just joining here for political reasons.


I know, thats why I was shocked at the reaction to you posting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> Thanks Noush, but I'm fine with it. I'm clearly not some Anon or something without a profile photo or just joining here for political reasons.


I do post in other places on here not all political like some on here. Just because I chose not to put an avatar on here that is my choice.


----------



## emmaviolet

I know a lot of people who didn't vote remain as they thought it would win, some of my family included. 
If there's another vote, I'm out to vote, as are many.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> I do post in other places on here not all political like some on here.


I wasn't talking about you, you took it that way, I was talking about myself.

Clearly I'm a member, my dog is my profile photo and I've posted about him for years before.

But I understand your motivation behind your post to be somewhat rude and belittling. It's fine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I know, thats why I was shocked at the reaction to you posting.


I have been shocked at the pages of ramble you post. Do I complain? Nope (sorry only lately ).


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I know a lot of people who didn't vote remain as they thought it would win, some of my family included.
> If there's another vote, I'm out to vote, as are many.


 I don't understand ? You mean they didn't vote at all or they really wanted to remain , yet voted Leave?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Hurray my ignore list works.


Does Goblin still post here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Does Goblin still post here.


Don't know. Does he? He is on my ignore list.


----------



## noushka05

Oops More bad news for Theresa (I thought this was funny lol)

Breaking: BBC have withdrawn their offer to hold the Brexit debate. So now it’s only ITV in the running .... head-to-head or nothing at all. 

“I’m Theresa May, get me out of here!!!

,


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I don't understand ? You mean they didn't vote at all or they really wanted to remain , yet voted Leave?


Didn't vote at all, now want to remain.

They believed the polls that we would remain, and didn't fully understand what Brexit would mean (did anyone?) and now faced with the consequences really want to remain so will vote if there's another vote.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> How can they really implement it?
> 
> It's like getting angry that you cannot find a unicorn, so much was promised that it's pretty much impossible to come up with something that they can all agree on.
> 
> Why are people getting angry at the thought of not making the country unstable and less safe? Surely that comes first in a country, then you can want soundbites?


I think you've missed the point. Do you actually know what happened in parliament an hour or so ago?


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Didn't vote at all, now want to remain.
> 
> They believed the polls that we would remain, and didn't fully understand what Brexit would mean (did anyone?) and now faced with the consequences really want to remain so will vote if there's another vote.


Oh I see. Thanks for explaining.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Oh I see. Thanks for explaining.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> I think you've missed the point. Do you actually know what happened in parliament an hour or so ago?


Yes thank you. Fully.

I haven't missed the point at all, perhaps you have?


----------



## kimthecat

I hope this thread doesn;t end up closed. perhaps we should all step back and take a deep breath !


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I think you've missed the point. Do you actually know what happened in parliament an hour or so ago?


I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but what don't you like about what happened today? I can't see anything that threatens democracy; quite the opposite if anything.

Firstly there was a recommendation / 'ruling' by the ECJ guy on a matter of law; a case which the UK government tried to block. It gave more power to the UK government.

Secondly the government was held to account for ignoring a binding Parliamentary vote. That again is surely democracy in action; the government can't simply ignore Parliament when it feels like it.

Was it one of those or something else that upset you?

Edit: And Dominic Grieve's amendment was passed, giving Parliament more say on what happens going forward. Given that we are a Parliamentary democracy, that also seems to me quite right.

Parliament haven't voted to reverse Brexit, and are extremely unlikely to do so unless the People vote that way first, so I honestly don't see what the problem is. Can you explain?


----------



## rona

The only politician talking sense today seems to be Dominic Grieve


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> The only politician talking sense today seems to be Dominic Grieve


Sorry, was that your answer to my genuine question?


----------



## Jonescat

Gosh it's quiet in here.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 379234



I dunno.


----------



## cheekyscrip

We are waiting with abated breath... this is why...


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Does Goblin still post here.


I've not seen anything from him for a long time.


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> I know a lot of people who didn't vote remain as they thought it would win, some of my family included.
> If there's another vote, I'm out to vote, as are many.


So we should have a second referendum for those folks who couldn't be bothered to vote first time round?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted.


----------



## noushka05

This would be the best Christmas present - ever!
_
It will be remarkable if Brexit & Trump unravel in unison. And fitting_.



rona said:


> The only politician talking sense today seems to be Dominic Grieve


_
'A sad day for democracy_" - What exactly have you been moaning about then? Grieves amendment takes brexit out of the grip of this increasingly authoritarian government and puts it back in the hands of parliament. He did well, hopefully it now means a no deal is dead.



noushka05 said:


> Oops More bad news for Theresa (I thought this was funny lol)
> 
> Breaking: BBC have withdrawn their offer to hold the Brexit debate. So now it's only ITV in the running .... head-to-head or nothing at all.
> 
> "I'm Theresa May, get me out of here!!!
> 
> ,


Well what a surprise

*Theresa May chickens out of debating Jeremy Corbyn head-to-head over Brexit Withdrawal deal*

https://evolvepolitics.com/theresa-...byn-head-to-head-over-brexit-withdrawal-deal/

https://evolvepolitics.com/theresa-...byn-head-to-head-over-brexit-withdrawal-deal/


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> So we should have a second referendum for those folks who couldn't be bothered to vote first time round?


No, not at all.
This post was in reply to a previous post which stated if there was another vote the poster was ready to vote leave again as were others. I was countering with this post.


----------



## rona

These delusional idiots still think they are going to get the EU to play ball 

They are so full of their own importance


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> _'A sad day for democracy_" - What exactly have you been moaning about then? Grieves amendment takes brexit out of the grip of this increasingly authoritarian government and puts it back in the hands of parliament. He did well, hopefully it now means a no deal is dead.


I assume my views have upset Rona and resulted in an ignore status, but hopefully she will respond to you, because it would be interesting to see a differing view on yesterday's events, which seemed to me very positive for democracy.


----------



## stockwellcat.

PMQ's will be interesting today at 12pm on freeview channel 232 (Parliament Channel).


----------



## stockwellcat.

No deal cannot be avoided if MP's vote down the withdrawal agreement. Those thinking it can are obviously not listening to what the EU Leaders have said.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> *Theresa May chickens out of debating Jeremy Corbyn head-to-head over Brexit Withdrawal deal*
> 
> https://evolvepolitics.com/theresa-...byn-head-to-head-over-brexit-withdrawal-deal/
> 
> https://evolvepolitics.com/theresa-...byn-head-to-head-over-brexit-withdrawal-deal/


That's not quite correct. According to the Guardian

*The BBC has cancelled plans for a televised Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on Sunday night after Labour objected to the format.*

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/bbc-cancels-plans-for-sunday-night-brexit-debate

According to the BBC .....

*The BBC has dropped plans to hold a Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, saying it "could not reach an agreement" on its proposal.*

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46444061

Interesting article about Evolve Politics by The Guardian which mentions that

*Matthew Turner, 21, a third-year politics undergraduate at Nottingham University, has grasped that the shareability of the alt-media is what gives it political potential. In between studying for his finals, he helps run Evolve Politics.*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-force-shaping-general-election-debate-canary

I know who I prefer to believe and it's not Evolve Politics (even though Nottingham is my home city)


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No Parliament is not taking back control. The UK voted to leave. The back stabbing, 2 faced MP's are going against what they agreed to with an overwhelming majority by voting in article 50 etc. They are creating a political crisis.


Ahem, there's a political crisis without their help unless you believe a Theresa May dictatorship and yes, by insisting she's delivering the Brexit YOU voted for is a sign of that.

If her Brexit deal is so good, why did she want to keep it secret from parliament?

The vile wicked witch needed reminding she is a PM in a democracy.

Well done MPs I say.

Now we hope they'll soon oust this disgusting xenophobe into the back benches.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant speech here from Margaret Beckett yesterday.

Her style rather reminds me of Margaret Thatcher.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2270445723180163


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant speech here from Margaret Beckett yesterday.
> 
> Her style rather reminds me of Margaret Thatcher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2270445723180163


Got a lot of praise from Soubry, who followed her, as well.


----------



## Arnie83

From today's Times

More people think that Britain was wrong to vote to leave the European Union than previously recorded, a YouGov poll for _The Times_ reveals.

It found that 49 per cent thought Britain was wrong to vote to leave, the highest figure to date, while 38 per cent believed that Britain was right to choose to leave, a new low. This 11-point gap is the largest YouGov has had for the wrong decision having been made.

Some 11 per cent of people who voted to leave in 2016 now think that the country made the incorrect decision, up from 8 per cent in mid-November.​
Only one way to find out what the Will of the People is, now that they've seen the facts of Leaving rather than the promises. People's Vote.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I* assume my views have upset Rona and resulted in an ignore status, but hopefully she will respond to you*, because it would be interesting to see a differing view on yesterday's events, which seemed to me very positive for democracy.


I wouldn't hold your breath Arnie



Magyarmum said:


> That's not quite correct. According to the Guardian
> 
> *The BBC has cancelled plans for a televised Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on Sunday night after Labour objected to the format.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/bbc-cancels-plans-for-sunday-night-brexit-debate
> 
> According to the BBC .....
> 
> *The BBC has dropped plans to hold a Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, saying it "could not reach an agreement" on its proposal.*
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46444061
> 
> Interesting article about Evolve Politics by The Guardian which mentions that
> 
> *Matthew Turner, 21, a third-year politics undergraduate at Nottingham University, has grasped that the shareability of the alt-media is what gives it political potential. In between studying for his finals, he helps run Evolve Politics.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-force-shaping-general-election-debate-canary
> 
> I know who I prefer to believe and it's not Evolve Politics (even though Nottingham is my home city)


It is true. Corbyn objected to the 'bbc's' format because it wasnt a 'head to head'. May is too chicken to face Corbyn in a head to head -which ITV have offered. She knows her brexit plan is a shambles and she cant answer a straightforward question unless its with a lie!

Here is Sky news's & Sunday Times political columnist take. Hes hardly a Corbynite lol

*Adam Boulton*‏Verified account @adamboultonSKY Dec 3
Absurd that BBC is trying to turn May/Corbyn Brexit debate into a version of BBC Questiontime. It's head-to-head or worthless. @jeremycorbyn is right on this.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


It goes together with how Boris finished his speech on the Brexit bill yesterday:

"If we try to cheat [the people] now-as I fear that we are trying to cheat them-they will spot it, and they will never forgive us."​
I swear he was blissfully unaware of his own hypocrisy.


----------



## Elles

The government offered the head to head with Corbyn in the first place. The bbc offered a head to head, followed by a panel debate where representatives of all parties could be involved, followed by a further head to head. What’s wrong with that?

Corbyn didn’t like the date, so they said they’d move programming and change the date. Then he said he doesn’t want anyone else being involved, doesn’t like the format and wants itv with just himself and Theresa May, no one else. So the beeb have dropped out.

It’s Corbyn shilly shallying in my view, not TM who offered the head to head in the first place. Corbyn is being pathetic. The bbc did offer a ‘substantial head to head’ followed by a panel. Corbyn doesn’t want to get asked awkward questions by people like Caroline Lucas regarding The People’s Vote if you ask me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> That's not quite correct. According to the Guardian
> 
> *The BBC has cancelled plans for a televised Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on Sunday night after Labour objected to the format.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/bbc-cancels-plans-for-sunday-night-brexit-debate
> 
> According to the BBC .....
> 
> *The BBC has dropped plans to hold a Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, saying it "could not reach an agreement" on its proposal.*
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46444061
> 
> Interesting article about Evolve Politics by The Guardian which mentions that
> 
> *Matthew Turner, 21, a third-year politics undergraduate at Nottingham University, has grasped that the shareability of the alt-media is what gives it political potential. In between studying for his finals, he helps run Evolve Politics.*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-force-shaping-general-election-debate-canary
> 
> I know who I prefer to believe and it's not Evolve Politics (even though Nottingham is my home city)


I thought it was Labour that objected not Theresa May. Theresa May wanted it on BBC1.


----------



## Jesthar

Is there any reason why she couldn't go ahead and answer open questions anyway? I seem to recall HIGNFY once replaced John Prescott with a tub of lard...


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> Didn't vote at all, now want to remain.
> 
> They believed the polls that we would remain, and didn't fully understand what Brexit would mean (did anyone?) and now faced with the consequences really want to remain so will vote if there's another vote.


I didn't believe in the polls but knew Leave would win following The Sun's "Believe In Britain" front page.

Now, many here will deny any media influence which I respect, as it would be like myself being accused of being "scared" by the Remain campaign when I was 100% committed to EU membership long before any referendum was announced. Nothing would change my mind on that.

But I do know many, perhaps not here, who are heavily influenced by papers like The Sun. Their own research suggests 70% of their readers follow the advice given on their "Sun Says" advice. That was on their front page. Then there's the Express, Mail and the BBC......

I've been accused of being a Sun reader myself. That's not incorrect as it's the "default" paper at work so I do look at it from time to time.

Then, you're right about many abstained from voting as they didn't understand what was being voted for.

The different leave camps gave conflicting proposals, some arguing there was nothing to suggest leaving the SM or even the Norway model.

But tough, unless you're a politician like May for example, you're not allowed to change your mind, even though I know one Remain voter who'd now back leave.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The government offered the head to head with Corbyn in the first place. The bbc offered a head to head, followed by a panel debate where representatives of all parties could be involved, followed by a further head to head. What's wrong with that?
> 
> Corbyn didn't like the date, so they said they'd move programming and change the date. Then he said he doesn't want anyone else being involved, doesn't like the format and wants itv with just himself and Theresa May, no one else. So the beeb have dropped out.
> 
> It's Corbyn shilly shallying in my view, not TM who offered the head to head in the first place. Corbyn is being pathetic. The bbc did offer a 'substantial head to head' followed by a panel. Corbyn doesn't want to get asked awkward questions by people like Caroline Lucas regarding The People's Vote if you ask me.


No it was not a head to head. The BBC rigged in favour May  Why wont she accept ITVs straight forward head to head? :Chicken :Chicken:Chicken

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/the-primetime-brexit-tv-debate-is-turning-into-a-bit-of-a
*Ten members of the panel would have been in favour of the deal*, while the other ten would have opposed it and argued for alternatives, ranging from a no-deal Brexit to single-market membership to a second referendum.

*Jeremy Corbyn*‏Verified account @jeremycorbyn
*. @theresa_may said she wanted a head to head debate with me on her botched Brexit deal and I am ready to do that. @ITV have a straightforward plan. If she and her team prefer @BBC, she should join me in asking them to arrange an actual head-to-head debate*


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> The government offered the head to head with Corbyn in the first place. The bbc offered a head to head, followed by a panel debate where representatives of all parties could be involved, followed by a further head to head. What's wrong with that?
> 
> Corbyn didn't like the date, so they said they'd move programming and change the date. Then he said he doesn't want anyone else being involved, doesn't like the format and wants itv with just himself and Theresa May, no one else. So the beeb have dropped out.
> 
> It's Corbyn shilly shallying in my view, not TM who offered the head to head in the first place. Corbyn is being pathetic. The bbc did offer a 'substantial head to head' followed by a panel. Corbyn doesn't want to get asked awkward questions by people like Caroline Lucas regarding The People's Vote if you ask me.


And right he should.

The BBC has proved itself as heavily biased, not only on the news but in their programming. He shouldn't go for a BBC option just because that's what May wants. After she pulled out of any debates in the GE, he has a right to say what he would like in this.

Personally I find the whole thing redundant, he has nothing to defend, this is her mess, let her stew in it. I don't see the point of a H2H with just those two, Ireland and Scotland have a lot more to lose if and when we leave the EU, so they should have a platform too.

She never answers a single question anyway, so why she wants to debate this, which is what she should be doing in the commons anyway I don't understand. It just seems to be a 'showbiz' decision.


----------



## Elles

It's supposed to be a head to head and debate on her deal, not a party political broadcast. Other parties want to be involved, Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want them to be for some reason. As leader of the opposition he's clearly more important, the time, place and format should all be down to his preference.

If it was TM shilly shallying and refusing to allow anyone else to play a part, no doubt people would be saying why doesn't she just accept the bbc and why shouldn't other people be able to debate it after their head to head.

If I was TM I'd tell him to stuff it with his objections. He talks a load of crap anyway. I'd rather see a debate with a real leader, not that poor excuse of one. You're totally biased @noushka05 , but then so am I. I blame Corbyn and his manipulations for our not having an opposition party worth considering, or a decent representative of Eu remain supporters. He can't retire soon enough imo.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Exiting the EU Withdrawal legal advice has been published. Government no longer in contempt of Parliament.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-eu-publication-of-legal-advice

The document attached is the legal advice.


----------



## Jesthar

emmaviolet said:


> She never answers a single question anyway, so why she wants to debate this, which is what she should be doing in the commons anyway I don't understand. It just seems to be a 'showbiz' decision.


Did you see the clip from Gogglebox that was doing the rounds with her refusal to answer the 'is there a Plan B' question over and over again - hilarious!


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> And right he should.
> 
> The BBC has proved itself as heavily biased, not only on the news but in their programming. He shouldn't go for a BBC option just because that's what May wants. After she pulled out of any debates in the GE, he has a right to say what he would like in this.
> 
> Personally I find the whole thing redundant, he has nothing to defend, this is her mess, let her stew in it. I don't see the point of a H2H with just those two, Ireland and Scotland have a lot more to lose if and when we leave the EU, so they should have a platform too.
> 
> She never answers a single question anyway, so why she wants to debate this, which is what she should be doing in the commons anyway I don't understand. It just seems to be a 'showbiz' decision.


Great post Emma. You explained far better than I ever could x


----------



## emmaviolet

Jesthar said:


> Did you see the clip from Gogglebox that was doing the rounds with her refusal to answer the 'is there a Plan B' question over and over again - hilarious!


No, I'll have to look out for it. Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Elles

So why didn’t he say in his first answer, ‘yes but only head to head, no other involvement’ instead of making stupid excuses about it? I don’t know why she offered it either, unless it’s a way of trying to get the public to back her deal. I’d rather we had someone decent arguing over it with her and I’d like to see other, sharper people involved in it.

Corbyn is useless to us in my view. He avoids answering questions as much, if not more than she does and if he’s expert at anything, it’s going round the houses and implying what he can deny saying later. Politicspeak. I suppose I’m not that biased really, I don’t particularly like either of them. :Hilarious I doubt I’d watch a straight head to head with just those two, unless it was a resurrected spitting image.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> If I was TM I'd tell him to stuff it with his objections. He talks a load of crap anyway. I'd rather see a debate with a real leader, not that poor excuse of one. You're totally biased @noushka05 , but then so am I. I blame Corbyn and his manipulations for our not having an opposition party worth considering, or a decent representative of Eu remain supporters. He can't retire soon enough im


Of course I'm biased towards people like Corbyn, who have strong social & environmental values. May is the antithesis of everything I stand for - but all that said, I have never defended Corbyn where criticism is warranted. And in this case it isn't. The BBC were setting him up & May is a coward.


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10218113112765889&id=1429935913


----------



## Elles

You think he has. I think he’s a hypocrite. We are both entitled to our opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

This is brilliant!



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=738028026554573



:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

emmaviolet said:


> No, I'll have to look out for it. Thanks for the heads up!


Hopefully this will work...

Edited to add - Language warning!  And you may need to turn the sound on




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=200304904192518


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You think he has. I think he's a hypocrite. We are both entitled to our opinion.


My opinion is based on a wealth of evidence.


----------



## Elles

Corbyn cherry picks from a report from the chief economist of the Bank of England criticising the gig economy since the bank crash, a report which finished by saying that things are improving, as have further reports on wages, but Theresa May is apparently laughing at poor people.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> My opinion is based on a wealth of evidence.


----------



## Elles

What answer to plan b is she supposed to give?

Gogglebox got it right, if she says plan b is no Brexit she’s done for. It has to be more subtle than that.

The Eu have said no further negotiation, so that’s out. No Brexit and she’s blackmailing leave voters. No deal and she’s blackmailing Remain voters. A second referendum and the delay and cost that entails, could be a consideration after they’ve considered her deal and if it doesn’t get through. Until then, clearly TM would need to push her deal. Plan B is probably a number of options, not just one and she’s mentioned all of them, without promising a specific. Typical of politicians, especially politicians trying to keep a lid on a volatile situation. Why would anyone expect anything else? Have we learned nothing from years of watching politicians playing politics?


----------



## Magyarmum

Some late night reading for everyone

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...reat-britain-and-northern-ireland-european-un

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...union-and-european-atomic-energy-community_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...-uk-citizens-outlined-withdrawal-agreement_en


----------



## stockwellcat.

Go Nigel Evans MP (Conservative - Ribble Valley) on Parliament channel 232. This man speaks alot of sense.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Great post Emma. You explained far better than I ever could x


And yet didn't vote. I don't understand that at all.


----------



## Arnie83

A good article, in my opinion, explaining why yesterday was a good day for politics. (I shall assume that everyone thinks the same given the lack of reasoned rebuttal! )

... Grieve introduced a new amendment, ensuring any vote would allow amendments. And he wouldn't give way. He knew now not to trust promises from Downing Street. MPs voted for the amendment by 321 to 299.

This was a hugely significant moment, arguably one of the most pivotal in the entire Brexit process. If May fails to get her deal through parliament, she is under a statutory obligation to make a statement to the House within a set number of days. And that statement will be followed by a vote that is now amendable.

That means MPs can use it to demand the government extends Article 50, or holds a second referendum, or revokes the Article 50 notification altogether. That won't be sufficient on its own. Legislation would be required after that. But this is how they can start the change of course.

Parliament is finally taking back control. For two and a half years, MPs have trembled under the tyranny of an imaginary 'will of the people'. This never existed. People voted different ways for different reasons. But the government seized on the idea and used it to justify whatever action it happened to be taking, with the help of a largely compliant press and national broadcaster. Any MP, or peer, or judge, who had the temerity of challenging this executive power had the dogs of culture war set on them.

Now, finally, this poisonous spell of populism channeled through an over-powerful executive seems to have been broken. May's deal is driving relentlessly towards defeat. Given what we saw today, it seems almost impossible that she will pass it. If so, there are now, for the first time, real democratic checkpoints in which MPs can prevent no-deal.

The edifice has crumbled and it looks set to collapse. MPs have found their bravery. It's game on.​
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/04/may-crushed-as-parliament-humbles-her-before-brexit-vote


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> A good article, in my opinion, explaining why yesterday was a good day for politics. (I shall assume that everyone thinks the same given the lack of reasoned rebuttal! )
> 
> ... Grieve introduced a new amendment, ensuring any vote would allow amendments. And he wouldn't give way. He knew now not to trust promises from Downing Street. MPs voted for the amendment by 321 to 299.
> 
> This was a hugely significant moment, arguably one of the most pivotal in the entire Brexit process. If May fails to get her deal through parliament, she is under a statutory obligation to make a statement to the House within a set number of days. And that statement will be followed by a vote that is now amendable.
> 
> That means MPs can use it to demand the government extends Article 50, or holds a second referendum, or revokes the Article 50 notification altogether. That won't be sufficient on its own. Legislation would be required after that. But this is how they can start the change of course.
> 
> Parliament is finally taking back control. For two and a half years, MPs have trembled under the tyranny of an imaginary 'will of the people'. This never existed. People voted different ways for different reasons. But the government seized on the idea and used it to justify whatever action it happened to be taking, with the help of a largely compliant press and national broadcaster. Any MP, or peer, or judge, who had the temerity of challenging this executive power had the dogs of culture war set on them.
> 
> Now, finally, this poisonous spell of populism channeled through an over-powerful executive seems to have been broken. May's deal is driving relentlessly towards defeat. Given what we saw today, it seems almost impossible that she will pass it. If so, there are now, for the first time, real democratic checkpoints in which MPs can prevent no-deal.
> 
> The edifice has crumbled and it looks set to collapse. MPs have found their bravery. It's game on.​
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/04/may-crushed-as-parliament-humbles-her-before-brexit-vote


Not incredibly important but I've now seen 3 different versions of the vote numbers for the amendment. Is that normal?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some remainers are still going on about yesterday.

The Government have published the legal documents and therefore are no longer in Contempt of Parliament.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-eu-publication-of-legal-advice

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-european-union-publications


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> And yet didn't vote. I don't understand that at all.


I think many didn't want to vote because had no idea what Leaving will actually mean?
Those of Leave Camp who had some realistic idea would not spill.
If people knew the truth they would not vote Leave, few would.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I will leave you to it as I am fed up with reading re-runs of we are right and everyone else is wrong posts from remainers. Have fun.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Deleted.


Think you have not read my post?
I said people didn't vote at all because didn't feel they know enough about what Leaving will mean. 
Prudent and sensible people.
Now they know more.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Not incredibly important but I've now seen 3 different versions of the vote numbers for the amendment. Is that normal?


Facts are important, so I shall check! 

From Hansard:

*Division 274*
*4 December 2018*
* 5.28 pm*
_The House divided:_

Ayes: 321
Noes: 299
_Question accordingly agreed to._

Edit! There were other votes of course, but that was the Grieve amendment


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Prudent and sensible people.


Be careful Cheeky as you are suggesting those that voted leave weren't sensible and prudent.


----------



## KittenKong

Congratulations to the Sabre Roads forum, who have a similar off topic forum to PF.

Their, "Brexit:What Now?" thread has reached Page 1000!


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Congratulations to the Sabre Roads forum, who have a similar off topic forum to PF.
> 
> Their, "Brexit:What Now?" thread has reached Page 1000!


I was around on this forum when there was a previous Brexit thread that was running into high numbers, but it disappeared.

I would imagine that one could have got to a similar or higher number.


----------



## emmaviolet

Do people leave this thread every day only to come right back within 10 mins? Is that what happens here? Only two days and it happened on both.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Congratulations to the Sabre Roads forum, who have a similar off topic forum to PF.
> 
> Their, "Brexit:What Now?" thread has reached Page 1000!


On the other website that I mainly frequent the Brexit thread is currently on page 1575, and (pleasingly for my slightly OCD love of round numbers) has just had its 31,500th post!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> From today's Times
> 
> More people think that Britain was wrong to vote to leave the European Union than previously recorded, a YouGov poll for _The Times_ reveals.
> 
> It found that 49 per cent thought Britain was wrong to vote to leave, the highest figure to date, while 38 per cent believed that Britain was right to choose to leave, a new low. This 11-point gap is the largest YouGov has had for the wrong decision having been made.
> 
> Some 11 per cent of people who voted to leave in 2016 now think that the country made the incorrect decision, up from 8 per cent in mid-November.​


 Dont' you think the sheer chaos and mess that gets worser and worser might have something to do the change in statistics. I think people would just vote to make it go away and never hear the word Brexit again


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Do people leave this thread every day only to come right back within 10 mins? Is that what happens here? Only two days and it happened on both.


I dont think it matters


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Dont' you think the sheer chaos and mess that gets worser and worser might have something to do the change in statistics. I think people would just vote to make it go away and never hear the word Brexit again


i don't mind how many times I hear it as long as it happens. we are being manipulated by people who want us to stay in and be relieved about it. Complete whitewash, and people are just playing along. POWER TO THE RICH AGAIN


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I dont think it matters


I meant threaten to be done with it in total and leave, only to post ten minutes later. 
Of course people step away, that's normal and just life.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Be careful Cheeky as you are suggesting those that voted leave weren't sensible and prudent.


Read not twist!!!
I am suggesting that those who wanted flore information before they decide one way or the other were sensible and prudent.

In what way it suggests that those who voted one way or another were not?
Your assumptions me thinks...
Anyhow it is IMO ... and this forum and thread are the place to express it. You might not agree but do not twist.

I might say people who have cats are sensible for example.

It does not mean people have dogs are not. It does not mean people who don't have cats are not.
It doesn't say anything either way about those who don't have cats.
Logic! If A is B - poodles are dogs - does not mean not A is not B, so does not mean labradoodles are not dogs. It says nothing either way.

Subsequently I expressed opinion on those who didn't vote but no opinion on those who did vote either way.

So either you don't read/understand or you do but choose to twist the meaning.

Is it because you are a bit thin on arguments? It is just IMO.

 :Banghead


----------



## stuaz

emmaviolet said:


> I meant threaten to be done with it in total and leave, only to post ten minutes later.
> Of course people step away, that's normal and just life.


Some people like a bit a drama in there posting. I just kinda just skim past all that rubbish, more to life than forums!


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> How rude SWC!


I guess it was the mention of unicorns that startled @stockwellcat. somewhat. I've had ten times ruder comments than that on PF, and particularly on the various Brexit threads.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> New I hope this thread doesn;t end up closed.


I rather hope it does!!


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> So we should have a second referendum for those folks who couldn't be bothered to vote first time round?


A few more million quid!!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Corbyn cherry picks from a report from the chief economist of the Bank of England criticising the gig economy since the bank crash, a report which finished by saying that things are improving, as have further reports on wages, but Theresa May is apparently laughing at poor people.


You're the one doing the cherry picking Elles. Haldanes report was damning and May's reaction was shameful. REAL people are suffering, how anyone could defend May after all the misery and cruelty she has dished out is beyond me, but hey ho.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...de-in-wage-growth-bank-economist-andy-haldane



rona said:


> i don't mind how many times I hear it as long as it happens. we are being manipulated by people who want us to stay in and be relieved about it. Complete whitewash, and people are just playing along. POWER TO THE RICH AGAIN


Leave the EU = POWER TO THE MOST INSIDIOUS SPECIMENS ON THE PLANET = Rees Mogg, Johnson, Fox, Trump, the Kochs, Arron Banks, Steve Bannon, Putin, Farage, Mercer, Elliott..............

https://badboysofbrexit.com/

*Bad Boys of Brexit*

Farage, Banks and Bannon. They are some of the well-known Bad Boys of Brexit. But there are many more. The Bad Boys of Brexit are an unholy alliance. They are global Money Men, mall-state Regulation Burners and people with highly questionable Russian Connections , some of whom have undermined the very foundations of democracy.

These are the men (for they are predominantly men) who bankrolled and facilitated Brexit - and, in some cases, stood to make very large personal profits from it. They include some of the very wealthiest members of a global elite.

The Bad Boys of Brexit alliance came together before and during the referendum campaign. It attracted far-right ideologues, climate change deniers, tax-dodging foreign billionaires, specialists in voter manipulation, a convicted fraudster and a political operative described by David Cameron as "a career psychopath"


Calvine said:


> I guess it was the mention of unicorns that startled @stockwellcat. somewhat. I've had ten times ruder comments than that on PF, and particularly on the various Brexit threads.


But thats what the liars in the leave campaign promised Calvine . We were promised we'd be better off leaving the EU. Unicorns!

Dominic Grieve_: the decision that underpinned brexit was built upon a fantasy. A fantasy about the nature of the UK, about its apparent lack of interdependence with other states ......._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070279331635752960


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> A few more million quid!!


A drop in the ocean compared to the cost of brexit.

Also Hammond has confirmed to the "Brexit dividend" is actually just £15.4bn of additional borrowing. Arent tories great with the economy?


----------



## noushka05

Key brexiteers are ALL liars. And the reason we're in this mess is because they have been allowed to get away with their lies.

Femi_: The chairman of Leave Means Leave thinks that if the UK pound is literally worth less, that will help those on low wages. 
MATHS PEOPLE. MATHS!!!

He then shared some more fake news. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070094341681627136
.........................................................................

.....


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> A drop in the ocean compared to the cost of brexit.
> 
> Also Hammond has confirmed to the *"Brexit dividend" is actually just £15.4bn of additional borrowing*


Before anyone leaps on this it is not a "Brexit dividend" it's a Brexit DEAL dividend, which allows Hammond to use money that would otherwise be required to deal with some of the No Deal issues to be used on more productive things.

I think I'm probably repeating myself, but if there were to be an actual agreed deal then I would expect the economy as a whole to get a noticeable bounce as business breaths a sigh of release, feels more confident, releases investment funds they've been mostly sitting on, and gets moving. It won't make up for what we've already lost, but it would be welcome.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Before anyone leaps on this it is not a "Brexit dividend" it's a Brexit DEAL dividend, which allows Hammond to use money that would otherwise be required to deal with some of the No Deal issues to be used on more productive things.
> 
> I think I'm probably repeating myself, but if there were to be an actual agreed deal then I would expect the economy as a whole to get a noticeable bounce as business breaths a sigh of release, feels more confident, releases investment funds they've been mostly sitting on, and gets moving. It won't make up for what we've already lost, but it would be welcome.


I trust your judgement Arnie. The economy isn't really my thing tbqh. What I do know is brexit is already costing a fortune - money we could be spending on our collapsing NHS & public services. Such a waste & for a terrible deal - or worse!


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I think many didn't want to vote because had no idea what Leaving will actually mean?
> Those of Leave Camp who had some realistic idea would not spill.
> If people knew the truth they would not vote Leave, few would.


But these are people that support remain. And they knew exactly what that meant.


----------



## noushka05

I know this is taking the thread off track, but I just had to share this Trump clip with my fellow brexit debaters. Comedy gold

Muhammad Lila:_ There were three copies of the new NAFTA deal to sign. During the signing ceremony, President Trump appears to sign in the wrong place on one of them.

This is the exact moment everyone realized, individually with their reactions, 
including Prime Minister Trudeau


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1069609790802784257
_
What a complete and utter MORON:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I trust your judgement Arnie. The economy isn't really my thing tbqh. What I do know is *brexit is already costing a fortune *- money we could be spending on our collapsing NHS & public services. Such a waste & for a terrible deal - or worse!


Now that is very true. The BoE confirmed, quietly, to the select committee the other day that we're already at least 1% GDP (c. £25bn) down on where we would have been, and many respectable bodies put it nearer 2%.

It 'amuses' me that with even the government's own figures showing it will cost us billions more every year after we leave, one of the arguments against a new referendum is the cost!


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> But these are people that support remain. And they knew exactly what that meant.


I really hope that if we end up staying in the EU (and I don't think we will) it will mean anything but the status quo. Both the UK and the EU have to realise that even allowing for the misinformation, there are significant changes needed if the EU is to get stronger rather than weaker.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> But these are people that support remain. And they knew exactly what that meant.


Not necessarily. Many switched to voting Leave following the Turkey population moving to the UK threat. We received leaflets virtually every other day from Vote Leave, UKIP and the BNP with this warning.

Also, many who support EU membership do not support Schengen nor adopting the Euro. Many were led to believe this would be the result of a Remain victory.

Enough for many to switch allegiances to Leave or abstain from voting altogether as they neither backed leaving the EU, nor wished for the Euro etc.


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> I guess it was the mention of unicorns that startled @stockwellcat. somewhat. I've had ten times ruder comments than that on PF, and particularly on the various Brexit threads.


Unicorns wasn't meant to be rude. How are unicorns rude?

It's true, the Brexit campaign offered things that could never materialise, lord knows I dislike May, but a political genius would be hard pushed to produce what was promised.
So I don't understand when Brexiteers get annoyed that it's not as expected or what they want, because nobody can produce that. It is exactly like getting annoyed because she cannot produce a unicorn, there's no point because what was promised in total, really doesn't exist.

I don't see why me using the word unicorn would stoke anyone into being rude to a person, but there you go.


----------



## Elles

Channel 4 last night interviewing random people about brexit with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alistair Campbell. 7 minutes long.

https://www.channel4.com/news/brexit-odd-couple-jacob-rees-mogg-v-alastair-campbell

The consultant gynacologist they randomly met in a cafe whose German doctor wife had felt utterly devastated and betrayed and left him when he told her he'd voted leave, destroying his perfect marriage, wants another go at the vote. They didn't talk about it before the referendum? I like Channel 4 news, they have some real gems.


----------



## Calvine

emmaviolet said:


> Unicorns wasn't meant to be rude. How are unicorns rude?


I did not say that they were. . . merely that stockwelllcat. was startled to read about them in a political thread. Chill out, please do.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> A drop in the ocean compared to the cost of brexit.


Or rather: ''in addition to the cost of Brexit''


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Unicorns!


Maybe we should have a sub-section for PF members with pet ones? (Unicorns that is.) It is, after all, a pet forum, supposedly.


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> I did not say that they were. . . merely that stockwelllcat. was startled to read about them in a political thread. Chill out, please do.


I'm perfectly chill thanks.
I don't see what's so startling personally, it's been used often in political terms to describe the promise of something impossible, and I don't see why the mention of them would provoke someone to rudeness.


----------



## Calvine

emmaviolet said:


> provoke someone to rudeness


I will say this just once more: I have encountered far ruder comments directed at me and no-one commented, nor did I. That's all I have to say on the matter.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I meant threaten to be done with it in total and leave, only to post ten minutes later.
> Of course people step away, that's normal and just life.


Oh yeah , That is rather funny .


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> I will say this just once more: I have encountered far ruder comments directed at me and no-one commented, nor did I. That's all I have to say on the matter.


That's fine, I didn't call it out anyway. I just thought it was a redundant response
I just see no connection with unicorns and rudeness, that's why I responded to you. You was remarking on it by making it about me mentioning a unicorn in my post, when it was clear what I was saying with regards said unicorn. The issue was done with until you mentioned it was about my post.
There's no correlation between mentioning unicorns and the response IMO.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I rather hope it does!!


Yeah but then we'd get threads started complaining about locked threads and censorship and whatever and then those threads end up locked


----------



## Arnie83

FYI:

The *European court of justice* has announced that it will deliver its judgment in the article 50 case at 8am UK time on Monday. This will be the ruling that will clarify whether or not the UK can revoke article 50 unilaterally.

Earlier this week's the court's advocate general delivered an opinion saying that the UK could revoke article 50 unilaterally.These opinions are normally, but not inevitably, a guide to the the court's final decision.


EU Court of [email protected]
#Brexit: the ruling on the reversibility of #Article50 TEU (case C-621/18 Wightman) will be delivered on 10th December at 9 CET

It would put the cat among the pigeons* it they didn't go along with the advocate general's opinion, but we shouldn't count our chickens**.

* Or the wolf among the herd of unicorns

** Other hatched creatures are available


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious I know Brexit is a serious business but its nice to have a laugh sometimes .


----------



## Magyarmum

Today's press release from the European Commission.

Make of it what you will,











European Commission - Speech - [Check Against Delivery]
*Speech by Michel Barnier at the plenary session of the European Committee of the Regions*
Brussels, 6 December 2018

Mr President, dear Karl-Heinz Lambertz,

Ladies and gentlemen, Presidents, Ministers, Ladies and Gentlemen, Mayors, Members of the European Committee of the Regions,

On 22 March 2017, I came to speak to you in this forum seven days before the United Kingdom notified its decision to leave the European Union, which initiated this negotiation.

I told you that Brexit would have a lot of human, social, technical, legal, financial and economic consequences.

I also told you the determination of the team I lead, under the authority of President Jean-Claude Juncker, and with the expertise of all the Commission services, with the expertise of the Council and the Member States , to reach an agreement on an orderly withdrawal from the United Kingdom and to prepare the new partnership that we will have to build with him.

And we had discussed the conditions for a successful negotiation, not against the British but with the British:


build and maintain the unity of the 27, through transparency and dialogue;
to remove as soon as possible the uncertainties created by the British decision to leave the European Union;
put things in order: first the withdrawal, which must be organized, and then the future relationship with the United Kingdom.
Ladies and gentlemen,

This method that I had exposed to you almost 21 months ago, we held ourselves there.

Since the beginning of my mission, I have visited two or three times each of the Member States to meet the Government, the National Parliament, the professional organizations and the unions.

I also had the opportunity to visit several regions, such as Jutland in Denmark, Flanders, Lower Saxony and Northern Ireland.

We also built this unit in Brussels, within the College of Commissioners, with the Member States, through a hundred meetings at all levels, but also through a close dialogue with the European Parliament and with the other institutions of the European Parliament. 'European Union.

Together with the Member States and the European Parliament, we have co-constructed this treaty.

The Committee of the Regions has always been aware of the need for unity and the conditions of this unity: transparency and public debate that allow everyone to express themselves and which allow us to take into account the specificities of each territory.

With my team, we met in particular with representatives of many European regions, including the outermost regions, to listen and understand their concerns.

On the basis of this unity, transparency and public debate, we have been able to define our common priorities.

In the first phase of these negotiations, we were able to settle certain issues that were identified very early on in your Committee, in particular the rights of citizens and the Financial Regulation.

Throughout this negotiation, we have never aggressively asserted the principles of our Union, such as the integrity of the single market, the indivisibility of the four freedoms and our autonomy of decision.

And we were able, _ultimately_ , to find a balanced agreement, which, given the difficult circumstances and the complexity of Brexit, is the only and the best. This agreement respects our principles while taking into account the red lines of the United Kingdom. It paves the way for a future ambitious relationship, unprecedented by the breadth of areas of cooperation between us.

Ladies and gentlemen,

On Sunday, 25 November, the European Council endorsed our draft withdrawal agreement and approved the political declaration on the framework for our future relationship.

President Tusk and President Juncker recalled that this was a serious moment for Europe. This is not the time for any celebration because it is a negative negotiation. There is no added value to Brexit.

But we respect this sovereign choice of the United Kingdom. And the two documents approved ten days ago can limit the negative consequences of Brexit.

Ladies and gentlemen,

The withdrawal agreement provides legal certainty for all those who are worried about the consequences of the British decision to leave the European Union.

I would like to take five illustrations, which answer many of the points you made in your two resolutions on Brexit.

1) In March 2017, I told you that the rights of citizens were our priority: " _Citizens first!_ ".


There are 4.5 million European citizens established UK and British established in the EU.

All these citizens, and those who have settled in their country of residence before the end of the transitional period, can continue to reside there, to work there, to study there, to receive allowances, or to bring their families there. .
2) Brexit poses particular problems in Ireland and Northern Ireland, which directly affect some of your communities and some of you personally.


We are committed to do our best, " _our Best Endeavors_ ", to conclude and ratify before 1 st July 2020 a further agreement regulating these issues.

But since we are not yet certain about the outcome of the negotiations on this subsequent agreement, and given our common commitment to avoid, in any case, a hard border, we have agreed on a _backstop_ legally operational, which will prevent the return of a hard border, preserve North-South cooperation on the island of Ireland and protect our single market. This _backstop_ , we will do everything to not have to use it.

But it is an element of stability, which is part of the continuity of the peace process and which is in the interest of Northern Ireland, as expressed by Northern Ireland companies.
3) For many of your communities, the budget issue was also a major concern.


For the current programming period (2014-2020), we have agreed that all commitments made at 28 will be honored at 28.

This provides fiscal stability for your communities, in the European Union as well as in the UK, but also for universities, farmers and businesses in your area, which carry projects funded by the European budget.
4) Our withdrawal agreement also provides answers to concrete Brexit challenges in many cities and regions in Europe.


I am thinking, for example, of the 3,000 geographical indications that protect the work of our farmers or artisans on our territories.

Existing geographical indications, such as Parmesan or Scotch whiskey, which are existing intellectual property rights, will be protected by the Withdrawal Agreement until our future relationship provides an equivalent level of protection.
(5) Finally, the withdrawal agreement provides for a transitional period, requested by the United Kingdom Government, until 31 December 2020, which may be extended only once by mutual agreement between the Union and the United Kingdom, for up to 24 months.


During this period, the United Kingdom will retain all the rights and obligations of a Member State, even if it will no longer participate in the Union decision-making process.

It will provide the necessary stability for administrations, businesses, and your communities to adapt - once - to the future relationship.

And that will allow us to negotiate the details of this future relationship.
Ladies and gentlemen

If, as we hope, the withdrawal agreement is ratified by both parties, this negotiation on the future relationship will begin the day after the withdrawal of the United Kingdom on 30 March. The political declaration approved by the European Council sets the framework.

Given the British decision to leave the European Union and the single market, there will be no _status quo_ ; it will not be _business as usual._

But our mutual interest is that of an ambitious partnership


goods, services, digital, mobility of people, transport, public procurement, energy;
but also internal security, police and judicial cooperation, and of course foreign policy, defense and many other areas.
This ambitious partnership, based on a free trade area without a tariff or quota for goods and on a customs regime based on the single customs territory provided for in the withdrawal agreement, will be in the interest of companies on both sides of the market. the Channel.

It will also have to establish a new fisheries agreement, which should include access to water, reciprocally, as part of the negotiation of our economic relationship. We are committed to the UK to do our best to conclude and ratify the new agreement before 1 st July 2020.

This partnership, ladies and gentlemen, also responds to three major concerns expressed by the cities and regions you represent.


Preserve the economic dynamism of your territories, some of which are very closely linked to trade with the United Kingdom, even if the internal market remains our main common asset.

Preserve the conditions of fair competition with the United Kingdom. This is why we have specific obligations to ensure a _level playing field_in social, environmental, tax or state aid.

Maintain opportunities for cooperation with British cities, regions or universities.
On this last point, I think first of all of the regions of Ireland and Northern Ireland, which are part of the PEACE program, whose usefulness I have seen as European Commissioner for Regional Policy.

In our political declaration, we pledge to continue this initiative, in the form of a PEACE PLUS program, which will maintain funding in their current proportions.

In addition to the specific case of this PEACE PLUS program, the United Kingdom will of course continue to participate in Union programs open to third countries.


This will be particularly the case for the programs in the fields of science and innovation (Horizon Europe), youth, culture and education (Erasmus) and civil protection, which concern many of your regions.

This will also be the case for interregional cooperation, through the INTERREG program, which the Commission has proposed to open to third countries for the next programming period.

Obviously, the United Kingdom will be able to participate in these programs according to the conditions applicable to third countries, defined by the European Union, by paying a fair financial contribution.
We have also planned for dialogue and exchanges in areas of common interest, such as science and innovation. Your territories will have their place in these dialogues and may take the initiative to cooperate or dialogue with British cities and regions.

Ladies and gentlemen,

As soon as possible after the UK has become a third country, we will be ready to launch this negotiation for an unprecedented partnership by the extent and number of cooperation topics.

A partnership that will give cities and regions their place, and which, in some member states, will have to be ratified by some regional parliaments, alongside national parliaments, some of whose chambers represent the regions.

But before that, it remains a decisive step, that of the ratification of our withdrawal agreement.

Without ratification, there will be no withdrawal agreement or transition period. This "no deal" scenario can not be ruled out. And it is therefore always necessary for each of your communities to prepare for it.

To avoid this scenario, it is now up to everyone to take responsibility.

British parliamentarians will in the coming days decide on the withdrawal agreement and the text of the political declaration.


This vote commits the future of their country.

We must respect this parliamentary and democratic debate in the United Kingdom.
And, for our part, we must give the ratification time to the European Parliament.

Ladies and gentlemen,

On 22 March 2017, I concluded my speech before you, stressing that the challenges and the new European agenda are not just Brexit.

Since the UK notification letter, the Commission chaired by Jean-Claude Juncker has continued to demonstrate its ability to take many positive initiatives, for our future to 27.

In the face of Brexit, we have shown a strong unity, which has been our strength throughout this negotiation. We must continue to use this unity in the service of a positive agenda, an agenda that combines sovereignty and proximity to meet the challenges ahead: building a green Europe, an economy for all, a realistic and humanistic policy for migration and a Europe capable of defending itself and projecting itself into the world.

Thus, with each Member State, each territory and each citizen we will build together the strong Europe of tomorrow. A Europe for which the United Kingdom will always remain a friend, a partner and an ally.

thank you for your attention


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Today's press release from the European Commission.
> 
> Make of it what you will,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European Commission - Speech - [Check Against Delivery]
> *Speech by Michel Barnier at the plenary session of the European Committee of the Regions*
> Brussels, 6 December 2018
> 
> Mr President, dear Karl-Heinz Lambertz,
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, Presidents, Ministers, Ladies and Gentlemen, Mayors, Members of the European Committee of the Regions,
> 
> On 22 March 2017, I came to speak to you in this forum seven days before the United Kingdom notified its decision to leave the European Union, which initiated this negotiation.
> 
> I told you that Brexit would have a lot of human, social, technical, legal, financial and economic consequences.
> 
> I also told you the determination of the team I lead, under the authority of President Jean-Claude Juncker, and with the expertise of all the Commission services, with the expertise of the Council and the Member States , to reach an agreement on an orderly withdrawal from the United Kingdom and to prepare the new partnership that we will have to build with him.
> 
> And we had discussed the conditions for a successful negotiation, not against the British but with the British:
> 
> 
> build and maintain the unity of the 27, through transparency and dialogue;
> to remove as soon as possible the uncertainties created by the British decision to leave the European Union;
> put things in order: first the withdrawal, which must be organized, and then the future relationship with the United Kingdom.
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> This method that I had exposed to you almost 21 months ago, we held ourselves there.
> 
> Since the beginning of my mission, I have visited two or three times each of the Member States to meet the Government, the National Parliament, the professional organizations and the unions.
> 
> I also had the opportunity to visit several regions, such as Jutland in Denmark, Flanders, Lower Saxony and Northern Ireland.
> 
> We also built this unit in Brussels, within the College of Commissioners, with the Member States, through a hundred meetings at all levels, but also through a close dialogue with the European Parliament and with the other institutions of the European Parliament. 'European Union.
> 
> Together with the Member States and the European Parliament, we have co-constructed this treaty.
> 
> The Committee of the Regions has always been aware of the need for unity and the conditions of this unity: transparency and public debate that allow everyone to express themselves and which allow us to take into account the specificities of each territory.
> 
> With my team, we met in particular with representatives of many European regions, including the outermost regions, to listen and understand their concerns.
> 
> On the basis of this unity, transparency and public debate, we have been able to define our common priorities.
> 
> In the first phase of these negotiations, we were able to settle certain issues that were identified very early on in your Committee, in particular the rights of citizens and the Financial Regulation.
> 
> Throughout this negotiation, we have never aggressively asserted the principles of our Union, such as the integrity of the single market, the indivisibility of the four freedoms and our autonomy of decision.
> 
> And we were able, _ultimately_ , to find a balanced agreement, which, given the difficult circumstances and the complexity of Brexit, is the only and the best. This agreement respects our principles while taking into account the red lines of the United Kingdom. It paves the way for a future ambitious relationship, unprecedented by the breadth of areas of cooperation between us.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> On Sunday, 25 November, the European Council endorsed our draft withdrawal agreement and approved the political declaration on the framework for our future relationship.
> 
> President Tusk and President Juncker recalled that this was a serious moment for Europe. This is not the time for any celebration because it is a negative negotiation. There is no added value to Brexit.
> 
> But we respect this sovereign choice of the United Kingdom. And the two documents approved ten days ago can limit the negative consequences of Brexit.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> The withdrawal agreement provides legal certainty for all those who are worried about the consequences of the British decision to leave the European Union.
> 
> I would like to take five illustrations, which answer many of the points you made in your two resolutions on Brexit.
> 
> 1) In March 2017, I told you that the rights of citizens were our priority: " _Citizens first!_ ".
> 
> 
> There are 4.5 million European citizens established UK and British established in the EU.
> 
> All these citizens, and those who have settled in their country of residence before the end of the transitional period, can continue to reside there, to work there, to study there, to receive allowances, or to bring their families there. .
> 2) Brexit poses particular problems in Ireland and Northern Ireland, which directly affect some of your communities and some of you personally.
> 
> 
> We are committed to do our best, " _our Best Endeavors_ ", to conclude and ratify before 1 st July 2020 a further agreement regulating these issues.
> 
> But since we are not yet certain about the outcome of the negotiations on this subsequent agreement, and given our common commitment to avoid, in any case, a hard border, we have agreed on a _backstop_ legally operational, which will prevent the return of a hard border, preserve North-South cooperation on the island of Ireland and protect our single market. This _backstop_ , we will do everything to not have to use it.
> 
> But it is an element of stability, which is part of the continuity of the peace process and which is in the interest of Northern Ireland, as expressed by Northern Ireland companies.
> 3) For many of your communities, the budget issue was also a major concern.
> 
> 
> For the current programming period (2014-2020), we have agreed that all commitments made at 28 will be honored at 28.
> 
> This provides fiscal stability for your communities, in the European Union as well as in the UK, but also for universities, farmers and businesses in your area, which carry projects funded by the European budget.
> 4) Our withdrawal agreement also provides answers to concrete Brexit challenges in many cities and regions in Europe.
> 
> 
> I am thinking, for example, of the 3,000 geographical indications that protect the work of our farmers or artisans on our territories.
> 
> Existing geographical indications, such as Parmesan or Scotch whiskey, which are existing intellectual property rights, will be protected by the Withdrawal Agreement until our future relationship provides an equivalent level of protection.
> (5) Finally, the withdrawal agreement provides for a transitional period, requested by the United Kingdom Government, until 31 December 2020, which may be extended only once by mutual agreement between the Union and the United Kingdom, for up to 24 months.
> 
> 
> During this period, the United Kingdom will retain all the rights and obligations of a Member State, even if it will no longer participate in the Union decision-making process.
> 
> It will provide the necessary stability for administrations, businesses, and your communities to adapt - once - to the future relationship.
> 
> And that will allow us to negotiate the details of this future relationship.
> Ladies and gentlemen
> 
> If, as we hope, the withdrawal agreement is ratified by both parties, this negotiation on the future relationship will begin the day after the withdrawal of the United Kingdom on 30 March. The political declaration approved by the European Council sets the framework.
> 
> Given the British decision to leave the European Union and the single market, there will be no _status quo_ ; it will not be _business as usual._
> 
> But our mutual interest is that of an ambitious partnership
> 
> 
> goods, services, digital, mobility of people, transport, public procurement, energy;
> but also internal security, police and judicial cooperation, and of course foreign policy, defense and many other areas.
> This ambitious partnership, based on a free trade area without a tariff or quota for goods and on a customs regime based on the single customs territory provided for in the withdrawal agreement, will be in the interest of companies on both sides of the market. the Channel.
> 
> It will also have to establish a new fisheries agreement, which should include access to water, reciprocally, as part of the negotiation of our economic relationship. We are committed to the UK to do our best to conclude and ratify the new agreement before 1 st July 2020.
> 
> This partnership, ladies and gentlemen, also responds to three major concerns expressed by the cities and regions you represent.
> 
> 
> Preserve the economic dynamism of your territories, some of which are very closely linked to trade with the United Kingdom, even if the internal market remains our main common asset.
> 
> Preserve the conditions of fair competition with the United Kingdom. This is why we have specific obligations to ensure a _level playing field_in social, environmental, tax or state aid.
> 
> Maintain opportunities for cooperation with British cities, regions or universities.
> On this last point, I think first of all of the regions of Ireland and Northern Ireland, which are part of the PEACE program, whose usefulness I have seen as European Commissioner for Regional Policy.
> 
> In our political declaration, we pledge to continue this initiative, in the form of a PEACE PLUS program, which will maintain funding in their current proportions.
> 
> In addition to the specific case of this PEACE PLUS program, the United Kingdom will of course continue to participate in Union programs open to third countries.
> 
> 
> This will be particularly the case for the programs in the fields of science and innovation (Horizon Europe), youth, culture and education (Erasmus) and civil protection, which concern many of your regions.
> 
> This will also be the case for interregional cooperation, through the INTERREG program, which the Commission has proposed to open to third countries for the next programming period.
> 
> Obviously, the United Kingdom will be able to participate in these programs according to the conditions applicable to third countries, defined by the European Union, by paying a fair financial contribution.
> We have also planned for dialogue and exchanges in areas of common interest, such as science and innovation. Your territories will have their place in these dialogues and may take the initiative to cooperate or dialogue with British cities and regions.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> As soon as possible after the UK has become a third country, we will be ready to launch this negotiation for an unprecedented partnership by the extent and number of cooperation topics.
> 
> A partnership that will give cities and regions their place, and which, in some member states, will have to be ratified by some regional parliaments, alongside national parliaments, some of whose chambers represent the regions.
> 
> But before that, it remains a decisive step, that of the ratification of our withdrawal agreement.
> 
> Without ratification, there will be no withdrawal agreement or transition period. This "no deal" scenario can not be ruled out. And it is therefore always necessary for each of your communities to prepare for it.
> 
> To avoid this scenario, it is now up to everyone to take responsibility.
> 
> British parliamentarians will in the coming days decide on the withdrawal agreement and the text of the political declaration.
> 
> 
> This vote commits the future of their country.
> 
> We must respect this parliamentary and democratic debate in the United Kingdom.
> And, for our part, we must give the ratification time to the European Parliament.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> On 22 March 2017, I concluded my speech before you, stressing that the challenges and the new European agenda are not just Brexit.
> 
> Since the UK notification letter, the Commission chaired by Jean-Claude Juncker has continued to demonstrate its ability to take many positive initiatives, for our future to 27.
> 
> In the face of Brexit, we have shown a strong unity, which has been our strength throughout this negotiation. We must continue to use this unity in the service of a positive agenda, an agenda that combines sovereignty and proximity to meet the challenges ahead: building a green Europe, an economy for all, a realistic and humanistic policy for migration and a Europe capable of defending itself and projecting itself into the world.
> 
> Thus, with each Member State, each territory and each citizen we will build together the strong Europe of tomorrow. A Europe for which the United Kingdom will always remain a friend, a partner and an ally.
> 
> thank you for your attention


Thank you for posting.

The next two years, plus whatever is added on the end, are going to be tortuous. Looking at how similar the Political Declaration looks to what we have now - and reinforced by Barnier's comments on the 'single customs territory' - Remainers should be happy enough, but it makes me wonder why the hell we're bothering.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Thank you for posting.
> 
> The next two years, plus whatever is added on the end, are going to be tortuous. Looking at how similar the Political Declaration looks to what we have now - and reinforced by Barnier's comments on the 'single customs territory' - Remainers should be happy enough, but it makes me wonder why the hell we're bothering.


I agree. If they weren't going to take us out of the Eu, they shouldn't have played silly beggars and given us a vote that made people think they would.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I agree. If they weren't going to take us out of the Eu, they shouldn't have played silly beggars and given us a vote that made people think they would.


"Out" is, and will remain (oops), a term open to interpretation.

The strict - 'legal' I suppose - definition would be that the UK would no longer be bound by the Treaties to which the EU members are signatories. Simple as that.

We will have 'left' - be out of - the EU by that definition even if we sign new bilateral agreements that look, in many ways, rather similar. No amount of crying foul - or 'this isn't what 'we' voted for - changes that.

What it does prove, yet again, is that you can't trust the weasel words of politicians. They will always find an interpretation that suits their own purposes, and in this case no individual Leaver can claim they have failed to abide by the ballot result just because the definition in May's overall deal is unlikely to deliver what they personally intended.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> "Out" is, and will remain (oops), a term open to interpretation.
> 
> The strict - 'legal' I suppose - definition would be that the UK would no longer be bound by the Treaties to which the EU members are signatories. Simple as that.
> 
> We will have 'left' - be out of - the EU by that definition even if we sign new bilateral agreements that look, in many ways, rather similar. No amount of crying foul - or 'this isn't what 'we' voted for - changes that.
> 
> What it does prove, yet again, is that you can't trust the weasel words of politicians. They will always find an interpretation that suits their own purposes, and in this case no individual Leaver can claim they have failed to abide by the ballot result just because the definition in May's overall deal is unlikely to deliver what they personally intended.


Of course. It's what I've said since day one.  I kept telling you Remainers to stop worrying so much and panicking. 
 It would have been worth worrying if determined brexiteers were in charge, but not only are they not in charge, they've steadily resigned. So much for them pulling all the strings. Of course it hasn't been agreed and decided yet, but I think it's clear what the majority of the government want.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Of course. It's what I've said since day one.  *I kept telling you Remainers to stop worrying so much and panicking. *
> It would have been worth worrying if determined brexiteers were in charge, but not only are they not in charge, they've steadily resigned. So much for them pulling all the strings. Of course it hasn't been agreed and decided yet, but I think it's clear what the majority of the government want.


But this particular Remainer voted that way a) to maintain the integrity of the EU b) to remain, personally, a European citizen and c) to reassure myself that the majority of the British people had the same global outlook as me.

I've lost on all 3 fronts. At least the Leavers will be able to reduce migration and membership fees (even if both actually cost us money!)


----------



## noushka05

*Martin Lewis*‏Verified account 
David Cameron truly left this country in the shit with his ill thought out referendum. It was a black and white vote on a rainbow of issues, with neither path nor plan on what to do with a leave vote. 

 Politics at its worst. Leaving us with this intolerable political impasse 
 
20,136 likes


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> But this particular Remainer voted that way a) to maintain the integrity of the EU b) to remain, personally, a European citizen and c) to reassure myself that the majority of the British people had the same global outlook as me.
> 
> I've lost on all 3 fronts. At least the Leavers will be able to reduce migration and membership fees (even if both actually cost us money!)


Ah but you didn't panic. 

Plus we haven't left yet.


----------



## Magyarmum

Two interesting articles from The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-control-brexit-may-defeats-commons-coalition

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Plus we haven't left yet.


That is true, and this piece in the Grauniad by Lord Kerr (who wrote Article 50) seems to suggest we might not. He rules out No Deal, as Parliament almost certainly will, then ...

The real debate now is between leaving under the humiliating terms of the proposed withdrawal agreement, with no certainty about the eventual permanent relationship, or staying with our current rights as full members, with a voice, a vote and veto.

So the choice is between a bad Brexit deal and sticking with the deal we have in the EU. And it's a choice for the people. I don't think it would be right for parliament to just vote to stop the Brexit process. The people started this with their vote and they must make the final decision.​
I admit I like the idea of the People choosing between the actual Brexit on offer, rather than a fantasy one, and Remain. But I wouldn't put money on the outcome.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Two interesting articles from The Guardian.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-control-brexit-may-defeats-commons-coalition
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum


I still don't get the 'betrayal' argument against a referendum on the deal. How can The People betray The People? And how can they be denied the chance to change their minds if that's what they want to do? And if it isn't, so be it.

I can understand the use of the term by those who don't want to risk it, but there doesn't seem much logic behind it, unless Parliament reversed Brexit without asking the People.


----------



## noushka05

Interesting.

*YouGov*‏Verified account @YouGov 6h6 hours ago

Theresa May reiterated her ultimatum to MPs this morning: my deal, no deal or no Brexit. Now a new YouGov MRP model has put that same dilemma to the public.

On first preference, Remain wins in 600 constituencies… https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=brexit_deal_model …


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I still don't get the 'betrayal' argument against a referendum on the deal. How can The People betray The People? And how can they be denied the chance to change their minds if that's what they want to do? And if it isn't, so be it.
> 
> I can understand the use of the term by those who don't want to risk it, but there doesn't seem much logic behind it, unless Parliament reversed Brexit without asking the People.


It is the paradox of Brexit - on behalf of the half of the People deny all People to express their views now that they know a bit better what it is on about?
Who can deny that we are better informed now than in 2016 though still not fully aware of consequences.
At least we know about the buses, the Russians and the cake.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> *YouGov*‏Verified account @YouGov 6h6 hours ago
> 
> Theresa May reiterated her ultimatum to MPs this morning: my deal, no deal or no Brexit. Now a new YouGov MRP model has put that same dilemma to the public.
> 
> On first preference, Remain wins in 600 constituencies… https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=brexit_deal_model …


No surprises there. Instinctively, one would guess that May's stitch up (why do people even call it a deal?) is so utterly appalling that nearly nobody would vote for it. I think she should be tried for treason for even suggesting it.

Personally, I don't much care nowadays whether the final decision is made by parliament or by a second referendum. The choice offered however should a simple one, "crash out" or "revoke article 50 and remain".


----------



## Elles

So according to this poll there’s still a majority who want to leave the Eu. Remain wins if leave voters are split and given two options, take the deal, or leave with no deal. In that case a second referendum is still too risky for remainers, for Theresa May and for the government who don’t want to leave and really don’t want to leave with no deal.

There’s still the problem that polls have been getting it wrong. It’s too close to call.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> So according to this poll there's still a majority who want to leave the Eu. Remain wins if leave voters are split and given two options, take the deal, or leave with no deal. In that case a second referendum is still too risky for remainers, for Theresa May and for the government who don't want to leave and really don't want to leave with no deal.
> 
> There's still the problem that polls have been getting it wrong. It's too close to call.


Two short videos from Euronews. (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/euronews/)

One from Chester which voted Leave and the other Scotland which voted Remain.

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/06/brexit-borders-how-brexit-is-seen-around-the-town-of-chester

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/06...never-going-to-be-a-deal-that-suits-everybody


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/world/europe/luxembourg-free-mass-transit.html


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 379780
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/world/europe/luxembourg-free-mass-transit.html


Probably easy enough to do in Luxembourg, a country so small they recently had it carpeted.

And what has it got to do with the EU?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 379780
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/world/europe/luxembourg-free-mass-transit.html


Maybe I'm thick but I don't understand what Luxembourg's decision to offer free transport has to do with Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Probably easy enough to do in* Luxembourg, a country so small they recently had it carpeted.*
> 
> And what has it got to do with the EU?


Wow... that's a nasty thing a say about someone else's country!!!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 379780
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/world/europe/luxembourg-free-mass-transit.html


Then there's this point

*The Richest Countries in Europe*
*Rank* *Country* *GDP Per Capita (Source: IMF)*
1 Luxembourg 104,003
2 Norway 69,249
3 Ireland 69,231
4 Switzerland 59,561
5 San Marino 59,058
6 Netherlands 51,049
7 Sweden 49,836
8 Iceland 49,136
9 Germany 48,111
10 Austria 48,005
11 Denmark 47,985
12 Belgium 45,047
13 United Kingdom 42,481
14 France 42,314
15 Finland 42,165
16 Malta 39,834
17 Italy 36,833
18 Spain 36,416
19 Cyprus 34,970
20 Czech Republic 33,232
21 Slovenia 32,085
22 Slovakia 31,339
23 Lithuania 29,972
24 Estonia 29,313
25 Portugal 28,933
26 Poland 27,764
27 Hungary 27,482
28 Greece 26,669
29 Russia 26,490
30 Latvia 25,710


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws said:


> Wow... that's a nasty thing a say about someone else's country!!!


It wasn't nasty, it's a joke. Have you ever been there? The place is tiny!


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Probably easy enough to do in Luxembourg, a country so small they recently had it carpeted.
> 
> And what has it got to do with the EU?


And so rich thanks to Juncker who made it into a tax haven during the time he was PM


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> It wasn't nasty, it's a joke. Have you ever been there? The place is tiny!


It's not the only one.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *So according to this poll there's still a majority who want to leave the Eu*. Remain wins if leave voters are split and given two options, take the deal, or leave with no deal. In that case a second referendum is still too risky for remainers, for Theresa May and for the government who don't want to leave and really don't want to leave with no deal.
> 
> There's still the problem that polls have been getting it wrong. It's too close to call.


I can't find this in the link; what am I missing?


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Probably easy enough to do in Luxembourg, *a country so small they recently had it carpeted.*
> 
> And what has it got to do with the EU?


Dudley Moore, "Arthur"?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> *YouGov*‏Verified account @YouGov 6h6 hours ago
> 
> Theresa May reiterated her ultimatum to MPs this morning: my deal, no deal or no Brexit. Now a new YouGov MRP model has put that same dilemma to the public.
> 
> On first preference, Remain wins in 600 constituencies… https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=brexit_deal_model …


I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you would post something that doesn't tell the whole story, but of course this result, which effectively splits the Leave vote in two, is inevitable. The more interesting Condorcet result is that Remain v. May's deal is pretty much 50 / 50 (Remain slightly ahead but way within the margin of error).

We would - according to the poll - end up with that result were the referendum to be held on an single alternative vote method, or if No Deal was not on the ballot (which I think is a real option given that almost no-one in Parliament wants it).

I'm beginning to think that a new referendum is May's back-up plan since she is spending so much time, while apparently talking to MPs, actually addressing the public.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I can't find this in the link; what am I missing?


Not sure whether I'm right, but is this the link you're both referring to???

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...1u7/Ben Lauderdale Brexit deal MRP report.pdf


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Dudley Moore, "Arthur"?


Thank you. I was just scouring the internet to find out where I'd heard it. Love that film.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I can't find this in the link; what am I missing?


It says people haven't changed their minds.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Not sure whether I'm right, but is this the link you're both referring to???
> 
> https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/24pikzv1u7/Ben Lauderdale Brexit deal MRP report.pdf


Bloody hell no! 

But I'll read it anyway!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Bloody hell no!
> 
> But I'll read it anyway!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Probably easy enough to do in Luxembourg, a country so small they recently had it carpeted.
> 
> And what has it got to do with the EU?


Indeed. The relevance to the EU is most member states being forward thinking while the UK is and has nearly always been backward thinking hence the decision to return the place to a time before it joined the EU, Lbs and Oz, blue passports and all that.

Yes, Luxembourg is a small country so I wouldn't expect the UK to adopt a free public transport system. That would be ridiculous.

Then, the UK does have the highest public transport costs within the EU, especially with rail travel. Again it's been announced commuters are facing yet another inflation-busting increase in fares in the New Year for a sub-standard service.

I'm reminded of the Tyne & Wear integrated transport system of the early '80s that the Thatcher government dismantled in 1986. Overnight, on deregulation day it was no longer possible to buy a bus to bus transfer when you could the day before. Stickers promoting the new bus "company" covered the old TWTransport logo. This was the future by reverting to conditions of the past.

The PTE did, under the circumstances, did a good job such as restore transfers between a single bus and metro journey, but the fares rocketed. Pensioners also lost their free off peak travel until the Brown government. The transport system will never be as good as it was before deregulation day in 1986.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> .


I should have added; thank you for finding and posting it!


----------



## Elles

So being a tax haven does benefit the poor. Luxembourg can afford to make public transport free. Perhaps the idea of Britain becoming a tax haven for the wealthy isn’t such a bad one after all. Maybe companies who have used Eu money to up sticks and move to where they can get cheap labour and pay less tax would move their money back here. Then maybe our government could buy rail franchises, rather than selling ours to other Eu countries. 

I expect the Eu will use the divorce money to tempt more companies into mainland Europe before we stop paying into it, if we do leave. We could potentially be paying the Eu to take jobs away. Now there’s a thought?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Then, the UK does have the highest public transport costs within the EU, especially with rail travel.


And that's whilst we are IN the EU. So I still don't see the relevance.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> And that's whilst we are IN the EU. So I still don't see the relevance.


Perhaps not, but leaving the EU won't reduce the fares.

Perhaps it would've come over better if I suggested the UK government look at what other EU countries are doing, not only as regards to Public Transport, rather than hawking back to the past and look to the USA for inspiration.

The fact England and its allies won the war against Germany in 1945 is no reason to ignore how successful they've become. The UK government, past and present, could've learnt a lot from them. The UK could still have it's own car industry for one thing.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps not, but leaving the EU won't reduce the fares.


I'm pretty sure I've not seen anyone suggesting that.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> My opinion is based on a wealth of evidence.


Do you have any idea how patronising this sounds? Try reading it back to yourself. (The smiling face alters nothing.)


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I'm pretty sure I've not seen anyone suggesting that.


 It wasn't on the side of the big red bus


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I should have added; thank you for finding and posting it!


No problem!

Thank you for being a perfect gentleman!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I'm pretty sure I've not seen anyone suggesting that.


The EU have been pretty much blamed for everything else though.

One voice I heard blamed the destruction of traditional British industries on the EU, not the Thatcher government, and expects to see them up and running again after Brexit.

Think he's going to be disappointed!


----------



## KittenKong

I've often heard "threats" of the troubles re-emerging in Northern Ireland should not put people off backing Brexit from Brexiters.

But is this acceptable to anyone?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...il-disorder-david-yelland-lammy-a8670916.html


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Then there's this point
> 
> *The Richest Countries in Europe*
> *Rank* *Country* *GDP Per Capita (Source: IMF)*
> 1 Luxembourg 104,003
> 2 Norway 69,249
> 3 Ireland 69,231
> 4 Switzerland 59,561
> 5 San Marino 59,058
> 6 Netherlands 51,049
> 7 Sweden 49,836
> 8 Iceland 49,136
> 9 Germany 48,111
> 10 Austria 48,005
> 11 Denmark 47,985
> 12 Belgium 45,047
> 13 United Kingdom 42,481
> 14 France 42,314
> 15 Finland 42,165
> 16 Malta 39,834
> 17 Italy 36,833
> 18 Spain 36,416
> 19 Cyprus 34,970
> 20 Czech Republic 33,232
> 21 Slovenia 32,085
> 22 Slovakia 31,339
> 23 Lithuania 29,972
> 24 Estonia 29,313
> 25 Portugal 28,933
> 26 Poland 27,764
> 27 Hungary 27,482
> 28 Greece 26,669
> 29 Russia 26,490
> 30 Latvia 25,710


Hungary is one of the poorest countries in Europe and yet everyone over the age of 65 can travel on public transport throughout the country, free of charge. This includes foreign tourists to the country who are aged 65 and over as well.

When I was in the UK a few years ago I was horrified to find it cost over £5 for a return ticket from where I was staying into Falmouth - a round trip of less the 8 miles!


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Hungary is one of the poorest countries in Europe and yet everyone over the age of 65 can travel on public transport throughout the country, free of charge. This includes foreign tourists to the country who are aged 65 and over as well.
> 
> When I was in the UK a few years ago I was horrified to find it cost over £5 for a return ticket from where I was staying into Falmouth - a round trip of less the 8 miles!


You get free bus passes in England and Wales at the female state pension age. And at 60 in Scotland and NI.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I've often heard "threats" of the troubles re-emerging in Northern Ireland should not put people off backing Brexit from Brexiters.


You do know some strange people. I've not heard anyone say this.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> You do know some strange people. I've not heard anyone say this.


But then you don't read the gutter press


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You get free bus passes in England and Wales at the female state pension age. And at 60 in Scotland and NI.


You're right. I was referring back to post deregulation day 1986 into the 2000s where pensioners' lost their free off peak travel in the T&W area.

Be interesting to see how long this will last with this administration. There's already talk of ending free TV licences for the over 75s.

Not exactly Brexit related I hasten to add.



MilleD said:


> You do know some strange people. I've not heard anyone say this.


Someone on this very thread said words to the effect of this. Don't recall who or when off hand.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> You get free bus passes in England and Wales at the female state pension age. And at 60 in Scotland and NI.


But if I come to the UK on holiday despite being over 60 and having a UK passport I'm not entitled to free transport on buses, trains or the underground, whereas if you come to Hungary irrespective of which country you're from, providing you're over 65 you can also travel free.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> But if I come to the UK on holiday despite being over 60 and having a UK passport I'm not entitled to free transport on buses, trains or the underground, whereas if you come to Hungary irrespective of which country you're from, providing you're over 65 you can also travel free.


How do you prove that you are over 65 in Hungary. We have to apply for a bus pass


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> You get free bus passes in England and Wales at the female state pension age. And at 60 in Scotland and NI.


Also if you live in London or greater london , you can get the bus pass from London Transport from 60 years old.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> How do you prove that you are over 65 in Hungary. We have to apply for a bus pass


As well a my ID which confirms my residence status and address, I have another card which confirms I'm an OAP. This is the one I have to show when I get on a bus or if I wish to travel by train or on the underground!

I also have a third card called a TAJ Kartya which has my Hungarian NHS number on it. In Hungary all medical records are computerised so by just keying my TAJ number into the computer any doctor anywhere in Hungary can access my medical records.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Also if you live in London or greater london , you can get the bus pass from London Transport from 60 years old.


I'm 70 and live Sutton Coldfield and have a West Midlands bus pass funded by Birmingham and the government and can be used on local trains, bus and metro services thought out the West Midlands. You get them when you are over 60 years old.


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum Sorry for going OT but did it take long to learn Hungarian ?


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Someone on this very thread said words to the effect of this. Don't recall who or when off hand.


I did. I said threats of violence or terrorism shouldn't be used to influence people's voting. Whether that's leave or remain.

We have some brexiteers threatening riots and civil unrest if we don't leave, some Remainers suggesting car bombs and soldiers on the streets of NI if we do and a mish mash of threats of all kinds of things from both sides. From terrorism to no drinking water. It's become hard to sort the wheat from the chaff, but blackmailing people with a threat of terrorism should never prevail.

Clearly there is an Irish problem, hence the controversy over the backstop and governments trying order a smooth transition with no hard border, but that shouldn't be a reason to vote remain. Or leave for that matter, some may dig their heels in if they feel threatened, when otherwise they might have changed their mind.

However I don't think that falls quite into:



KittenKong said:


> I've often heard "threats" of the troubles re-emerging in Northern Ireland should not put people off backing Brexit from Brexiters.
> ]


Once isn't often and technically I'm not a brexiter as I voted remain.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> I'm 70 and live Sutton Coldfield and have a West Midlands bus pass funded by Birmingham and the government and can be used on local trains, bus and metro services thought out the West Midlands. You get them when you are over 60 years old.


 We're also lucky here that you can get bus passes at any age if you are disabled. though I avoid buses at peak times , I find them a nightmare and very difficult if you are disabled.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> We're also lucky here that you can get bus passes at any age if you are disabled. though I avoid buses at peak times , I find them a nightmare and very difficult if you are disabled.


I think in England the free bus pass only counts for off peak.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I think in England the free bus pass only counts for off peak.


I think it might vary from council to council. We can use our in the afternoon rush hour , Im not sure the morning time, I need to check that though school kids pack the buses from about 3.30 onwards .

ETA also might depend on the type of pass. Mines a Freedom pass for people with disability .
It can be used from 9.30 am weekdays and anytime at the weekend .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum Sorry for going OT but did it take long to learn Hungarian ?


I'm ashamed to admit my Hungarian leaves an awful - and I mean an awful lot to be desired. I think my dogs know more than I do! It would have been easier to learn the language had I lived in Budapest or Debrecen where there are schools which specialise in teaching Hungarian to foreign students Unfortunately I live in a part of the country where there are few foreigners of any nationality!

Even the Hungarians will tell you what a difficult language it is to learn and luckily so many speak good English it isn't too much of a problem as you can normally find someone to help if you're stuck trying to explain something. If it's something difficult and I know no one speaks English, like telling the garage one of my side lights on the car's packed up and will they replace it I resort to google translate which I write on a piece of paper and hand it over hoping it makes sense!

Supermarket shopping is easy as let's face it, a potato and carrots look the same in any language. In any case a lot of the packaged groceries you buy over here come from other EU countries like Poland, Germany or Romania so you find the labels and instructions will be in at least half a dozen languages very often including English or French. If all else fails I can usually manage to decipher Romanian as it has several words in common with Italian!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you would post something that doesn't tell the whole story, but of course this result, which effectively splits the Leave vote in two, is inevitable. The more interesting Condorcet result is that Remain v. May's deal is pretty much 50 / 50 (Remain slightly ahead but way within the margin of error).
> 
> We would - according to the poll - end up with that result were the referendum to be held on an single alternative vote method, or if No Deal was not on the ballot (which I think is a real option given that almost no-one in Parliament wants it).
> 
> I'm beginning to think that a new referendum is May's back-up plan since she is spending so much time, while apparently talking to MPs, actually addressing the public.


I copied it verbatim from Yougovs tweet Arnie x



Calvine said:


> Do you have any idea how patronising this sounds? Try reading it back to yourself. (The smiling face alters nothing.)


Unfortunately we're not all blessed with your diplomacy and sensitivity Calvine

I was merely reciprocating the smiling face - but of course you wouldn't notice that lol 



Elles said:


> ome Remainers suggesting car bombs and soldiers on the streets of NI if we do and a mish mash of threats of all kinds of things from both sides. From terrorism to no drinking water. It's become hard to sort the wheat from the chaff, but blackmailing people with a threat of terrorism should never prevail.


These are not 'threats' & blackmail by remainers, these are the realities of a hard border of leaving EU structures. Good grief Elles - surely you must know that by now???



Elles said:


> Clearly there is an Irish problem, hence the controversy over the backstop and governments trying order a smooth transition with no hard border, but that shouldn't be a reason to vote remain. Or leave for that matter, some may dig their heels in if they feel threatened, when otherwise they might have changed their mind.


Some of us think maintaining peace in Ireland matters. even though the fall out would probably never affect us directly! Lets not forget NI voted overwhelmingly to remain, how selfish of us to put their safety in jeopardy!.

And its the morally bankrupt brextremists who actually *are *weaponising food supplies to force Ireland to capitulate on the backstop. The tories have trashed this countrys reputation. Their duplicity has tarnished our nations name now!



















,


----------



## KittenKong

Again, these are not my words.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mmons-interview-question-answer-a8670821.html















Makes you wonder what she'll do if she loses the vote next Tuesday....


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> Probably easy enough to do in Luxembourg, a country so small they recently had it carpeted.
> 
> And what has it got to do with the EU?


Gibraltar has free buses? To diminish the traffic and parking issues.

It helps the children to get to school and those who cannot drive. But Brexit can stop it as there might be no money for that.


----------



## Arnie83

I've seen a few people saying that the threat of violence is not something that should prevent a democratic vote - including @Elles - and I think that is right. In the case of Ireland I think the obvious threat should not prevent Brexit, but does put the onus on the negotiators to do everything they can to avoid a solution which makes violence more likely. Plus of course - and probably more importantly - a border in Ireland pretty much tears up the Good Friday Agreement.

I did hear a leading light of the Leavers (dunno who he was) on the BBC's lunchtime politics programme today predicting significant civil unrest if there was another referendum - presumably only if he lost - which I thought did not carry the same justification as the Ireland warnings.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Again, these are not my words.
> 
> *Makes you wonder what she'll do if she loses the vote next Tuesday....*


I don't claim to know the answer to that, but if I was John Richardson in Fife I'd be worried!


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar has free buses? To diminish the traffic and parking issues.
> 
> It helps the children to get to school and those who cannot drive. But Brexit can stop it as there might be no money for that.


We have free bus travel for school kids all over the country. I very much doubt Brexit would change that.

https://www.gov.uk/free-school-transport


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I've seen a few people saying that the threat of violence is not something that should prevent a democratic vote - including @Elles - and I think that is right. In the case of Ireland I think the obvious threat should not prevent Brexit, but does put the onus on the negotiators to do everything they can to avoid a solution which makes violence more likely. Plus of course - and probably more importantly - a border in Ireland pretty much tears up the Good Friday Agreement.
> 
> I did hear a leading light of the Leavers (dunno who he was) on the BBC's lunchtime politics programme today predicting significant civil unrest if there was another referendum - presumably only if he lost - which I thought did not carry the same justification as the Ireland warnings.


When you say democratic vote do you mean the peoples vote Arnie? I don't think anyone explains the Irish border dilemma better than Femi in this video.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1062419057117421570 Mays deal is stupid & we must not crash out without a deal or it puts the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy. Anyone who is rooting for a no deal is plain selfish & why on earth would anyone want Mays deal?. Her 'negotiated' deal is terrible. No wonder the globe is watching in disbelief as we self harm.

Were you aware the Irish Border had won Time Person of the Year?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> When you say democratic vote do you mean the peoples vote Arnie? I don't think anyone explains the Irish border dilemma better than Femi in this video.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1062419057117421570 Mays deal is stupid & we must not crash out without a deal or it puts the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy. Anyone who is rooting for a no deal is plain selfish & why on earth would anyone want Mays deal?. Her 'negotiated' deal is terrible. No wonder the globe is watching in disbelief as we self harm.
> 
> Were you aware the Irish Border had won Time Person of the Year?


I meant the original referendum as well as the possible People's Vote. No-one's vote should be swayed by threats of violence.

I hadn't seen the Time cover, but I'll try to read the article. Looks interesting.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I've seen a few people saying that the threat of violence is not something that should prevent a democratic vote - including @Elles - and I think that is right. In the case of Ireland I think the obvious threat should not prevent Brexit, but does put the onus on the negotiators to do everything they can to avoid a solution which makes violence more likely. Plus of course - and probably more importantly - a border in Ireland pretty much tears up the Good Friday Agreement.
> 
> I did hear a leading light of the Leavers (dunno who he was) on the BBC's lunchtime politics programme today predicting significant civil unrest if there was another referendum - presumably only if he lost - which I thought did not carry the same justification as the Ireland warnings.


Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

Threats of civil unrest aren't justified either. Nor should a fear of civil unrest prevent a second referendum. You got my point perfectly thanks. 

That was the point I was trying to make, it is up to the negotiators on all sides to come up with a suitable solution, not threaten war in an attempt to overturn the referendum, or prevent a second vote/remaining by frightening people into it. Genuine concerns and difficulties should expressed and addressed, not sensationalised to suit an agenda and interfere with a democratic vote.

I'm a bit against using terms like self-harming too tbh., but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I think in England the free bus pass only counts for off peak.


I think after 9.30am


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I meant the original referendum as well as the possible People's Vote. No-one's vote should be swayed by threats of violence.
> 
> I hadn't seen the Time cover, but I'll try to read the article. Looks interesting.


Thank you for clarifying x



Elles said:


> Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Threats of civil unrest aren't justified either. Nor should a fear of civil unrest prevent a second referendum. You got my point perfectly thanks.
> 
> That was the point I was trying to make, it is up to the negotiators on all sides to come up with a suitable solution, not threaten war in an attempt to overturn the referendum, or prevent a second vote/remaining by frightening people into it. Genuine concerns and difficulties should expressed and addressed, not sensationalised to suit an agenda and interfere with a democratic vote.
> 
> I'm a bit against using terms like self-harming too tbh., but maybe that's just me.


I'm responding to both you & Arnie on this point. The reality is, if people cant get needed medicines & food supplies run short - there is a high probability there will be civil unrest. Only an the most reckless & irresponsible government would ever allow a no deal to happen though. But I have little faith in this one as it clearly doesnt have the best interests of the country at heart.

As a parent myself, I can totally relate to this.

_I mean, for me, Brexit is quite simple. If you cause a no deal exit, and Insulin runs out, and anything happens to my 7 year old daughter with Type 1 diabetes,
I will tear everything that's left down brick by f****** brick until it's dust.
Quite, quite simple_

Brexit is an act of self harm Elles. We know we could never have a better deal than we have now - that is the simple fact of it.


----------



## Elles

He needs to worry about the global shortage of insulin too. He also says ‘no deal’ not brexit. There’s no suggestion that leaving the Eu with a deal in place, or plans in place for that matter, will create a shortage of insulin available for type 1 diabetics in the U.K.

As there is a possibility of ‘no deal’ if Theresa May’s deal is turned down and that, even if we go to a people’s vote, who may still vote to leave, currently the only way to ensure continuing supplies is for Theresa May’s deal to go through unchallenged. 

Self harm is not a term I would use in relation to politics. However, although my friend’s sister self harmed, I have no direct experience of anyone suffering and maybe I’m wrong to feel uncomfortable with a distressing issue being hijacked to describe leaving the Eu, by those who don’t agree with it.


----------



## Elles

By the way, generally, suggestions (threats) of civil unrest come from the more extremist brexiteers, relating to a second vote, not about running out of medicines. Some extremist brexiteers have threatened civil unrest if we don’t leave and to prevent a second vote, which is what I was objecting to.


----------



## noushka05

More & more revelations being unearthed on the Kochs and their dark money, this time how they are fuelling the hard right . Great scoop here by awesome George Monbiot & Desmog.

*How US billionaires are fuelling the hard-right cause in Britain*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...spiked-magazine-charles-david-koch-foundation


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> He needs to worry about the global shortage of insulin too. He also says 'no deal' not brexit. There's no suggestion that leaving the Eu with a deal in place, or plans in place for that matter, will create a shortage of insulin available for type 1 diabetics in the U.K.
> 
> As there is a possibility of 'no deal' if Theresa May's deal is turned down and that, even if we go to a people's vote, who may still vote to leave, currently the only way to ensure continuing supplies is for Theresa May's deal to go through unchallenged.
> 
> Self harm is not a term I would use in relation to politics. However, although my friend's sister self harmed, I have no direct experience of anyone suffering and maybe I'm wrong to feel uncomfortable with a distressing issue being hijacked to describe leaving the Eu, by those who don't agree with it.


More whataboutery....As hes clearly a caring father I'm sure he'll be worried about a global shortage too Elles, but that is out of our hands. No deal is a choice! As is Mays terrible deal too.

We also know a hard brexit like Mays will be potentially catastrophic for our NHS. This isnt scaremongering, this is based on impact studies.
It is an act of self harm because brexit is self inflicted & the fall out is going to bad. Its already wrecking lives, destroying this country's reputation even before we leave!


----------



## noushka05

Don't feel sorry for May (as if! lol) http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/07/week-in-review-all-may-s-faults-come-home-to-roost


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> By the way, generally, suggestions (threats) of civil unrest come from the more extremist brexiteers, relating to a second vote, not about running out of medicines. Some extremist brexiteers have threatened civil unrest if we don't leave and to prevent a second vote, which is what I was objecting to.


Just spotted this. Thank you for clarifying. Racist Tommy Robinson is leading a march this Sunday. So there is also going to be an anti Fascism march to coincide. More details here for anyone who can get there.










https://www.facebook.com/events/196829064559780/

We need everyone's help to build this mass mobilisation - invite everyone who wants to help oppose the rise of racism and the far-right. **

On December 9th, UKIP and the founder of the English Defence League Tommy Robinson plan to march with their racist far-right circus to the streets of London. We oppose everything the far right stand for: racism, hatred of migrants and reactionary ideas about women's 'proper' role as housewives and mothers.

The far right are using the Tory Brexit crisis to fuel a politics of fear and racism. We all know the Tory Brexit deal is terrible, but racism won't fix it. The Tory Brexit deal is an attack on everyone, and especially on migrants. We want a world that meets the needs of the many, not scapegoating our neighbours and peddling conspiracy theories. The Tory deal will expand the existing racist border regime to millions of more migrants.

It is more urgent than ever that we fight against Fortress Britain: against the hostile environment, immigration raids, detention centres and deportations. We need to fight together for all people to be able to live, migrate and work where we choose and for better wages, services and lives.

Tommy Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, is part of a newly energised and well-funded network of hate bankrolled by friends of Steve Bannon. Their far right politics is bleeding into the Tory party through Boris Johnson and other UKIP fellow travellers.

Life is hard for millions of us. Thanks to universal credit and benefit sanctions millions of families now rely on foodbanks. Many of us can't afford a decent place to live. Winter is around the corner and thousands of elderly people will die because of the cost of heating. Our NHS is being deliberately ground down ready to be sold off.

We can't let the far right provide racist solutions to the crisis we are in. We need build a future in which access to decent health, education and housing is a reality and not a dream. This begins with standing together against the racism and sexism of the far right.

Supporting organisations:
Stop Trump Coalition
Momentum
Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union
Independent Workers Union of Great Britain
Cleaners and Allied Independent Workers Union
Global Justice Now
Another Europe is Possible
Feminist Anti-Fascist Assembly
Women's Strike Assembly
Brazilian Women Against Fascism
Plan C
Labour Against Racism and Fascism
Labour Campaign for Free Movement
Kurdistan Students Union
NUS Black Student Campaign
Migrants Organise
Apna Haq
Dziewuchy London
London Young Labour
Lesbians and Gays Support the Migrants
London Anti-Fascists
Women's March London
Feminist Fightback
Fourth Wave: London Feminist Activists
The x:talk project
Ni Una Menos UK
Sister not Cister
Action for Trans Health
SOAS Detainee Support
People and Planet
Our Future Now
Women of Colour GWS
Global Women's Strike


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I'm responding to both you & Arnie on this point. The reality is, if people cant get needed medicines & food supplies run short - there is a high probability there will be civil unrest. *Only an the most reckless & irresponsible government would ever allow a no deal to happen though.* But I have little faith in this one as it clearly doesnt have the best interests of the country at heart.


I completely agree with this. A government's first duty is to the physical welfare of the country's people.


----------



## KittenKong

From the Brexit Exposed Facebook page :

FOREIGN SECRETARY LIKENS LEAVE VOTERS TO THUGS AND CRIMINALS | Jeremy Hunt thinks a second referendum would turn many Leave voters into a lawless, rioting mob. 

The Foreign Secretary clearly doesn’t think highly of the sense of law abidance from his Brexit supporters. 

If previous demonstrations from Leave voters are anything to go by, the volume and demographic composition of them would not pose any law and order threat, contrary to the ‘Project Fear’ conjured up by the Foreign Secretary. 

And since when was the national interest governed by a minority mob, Jeremy Hunt? 

Like | Follow | Share


----------



## Elles

@KittenKong I agree that's it's total rubbish. Brexit voters are in the main ordinary law abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of joining mobs in riots.  Perhaps he's been watching the French news.

@noushka05 You and your whataboutery. All these dire warnings relate to a no deal scenario with no plans in place. A hard brexit is no deal. Theresa May's deal is barely leaving the Eu at all, it's hardly a hard brexit. As we aren't going to leave with no deal, or with no plans in place, he should now be more concerned about the global shortage imho. As should we all. I would agree that any potential solutions are for another thread and nothing to do with Brexit. You've linked the chap's post a couple of times now. I'm sorry he feels violent about it and is worried about his daughter.

Tommy Robinson hasn't exactly inspired the masses into demonstrations. 2 former UKIP leaders and many others have left UKIP over his appointment. 'An exodus' the media call it. He's not really worth the time of day. The extremists giving him money are wasting it on a lost cause and he'll be end of UKIP imo.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> From the Brexit Exposed Facebook page :
> 
> FOREIGN SECRETARY LIKENS LEAVE VOTERS TO THUGS AND CRIMINALS | Jeremy Hunt thinks a second referendum would turn many Leave voters into a lawless, rioting mob.
> 
> .The Foreign Secretary clearly doesn't think highly of the sense of law abidance from his Brexit supporters.
> 
> If previous demonstrations from Leave voters are anything to go by, the volume and demographic composition of them would not pose any law and order threat, contrary to the 'Project Fear' conjured up by the Foreign Secretary.
> 
> And since when was the national interest governed by a minority mob, Jeremy Hunt?
> 
> Please do check your sources more thoroughly and take everything you read on Facebook or Twitter as gospel!
> 
> This is the article from Politico and what Jeremy Hunt actually said
> 
> *UK foreign secretary: Reversing Brexit could lead to Paris-style riots*
> A second referendum could spark 'real social instability,' Jeremy Hunt warned.
> 
> By ZOYA SHEFTALOVICH
> 
> 12/7/18, 12:09 PM CET
> 
> Like | Follow | Share


The British parliament must be "very careful" not to "get out of step with where the public are on Brexit" or risk "real social instability," U.K. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Times on Friday.

Urging MPs to back Prime Minister Theresa May's divorce deal in their crunch vote Tuesday, Hunt said lawmakers must "not just think about what our own views on Brexit are, but we have to think what is the solution that is going to bring the country together."

Asked whether violent protests like those by the Yellow Jackets in France could take place in the U.K., Hunt replied that holding a second referendum in which Remain narrowly won would cause those who voted Leave to become "incredibly angry."

"I wouldn't rule out real social instability in this country," he said.


----------



## noushka05

*James O'B: *_Brexiters' opposition to May's deal consists of complaining that it will turn us into the country they insisted we already were when they were campaigning to leave. No wonder the whole debate is so surreal. _



Elles said:


> @KittenKong I agree that's it's total rubbish. Brexit voters are in the main ordinary law abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of joining mobs in riots.  Perhaps he's been watching the French news.
> 
> @noushka05 You and your whataboutery. All these dire warnings relate to a no deal scenario with no plans in place. A hard brexit is no deal. Theresa May's deal is barely leaving the Eu at all, it's hardly a hard brexit. As we aren't going to leave with no deal, or with no plans in place, he should now be more concerned about the global shortage imho. As should we all. I would agree that any potential solutions are for another thread and nothing to do with Brexit. You've linked the chap's post a couple of times now. I'm sorry he feels violent about it and is worried about his daughter.
> 
> Tommy Robinson hasn't exactly inspired the masses into demonstrations. 2 former UKIP leaders and many others have left UKIP over his appointment. 'An exodus' the media call it. He's not really worth the time of day. The extremists giving him money are wasting it on a lost cause and he'll be end of UKIP imo.


Yes whataboutery. it happens a lot when people want to deflect from the point in hand. There may well be global shortages of insulin, but the immediate threat of shortages *here* will be caused by a no deal. This is what experts saying Elles, even the tories aren't blaming global shortages (yet!) . And I'm pretty sure any caring parent would trust experts over someone who is clearly pro brexit or any other layman for that matter. If that was my child I would feel EXACTLY the same & people trying to play down the seriousness isn't going to help! .

Here is the rest of James Patricks message.

_
I don't give a rat's f*** about your politics, about your dreams of empire. About your privilege.
I won't hesitate, I won't stop. No deal to make.

I'll treat all of it with same contempt my little girl's life has been shown. 
For me, Brexit is quite simple. Always has been._

My dear Mum had serious health issues & needed lots of medication & care to keep her alive- if she was still here I would be going out of my mind worrying about the implications of brexit. How would you address the concerns of someone with cancer and needs radioisotopes? All the people on other medicines which will be in short supply? Global shortages??

*Matt the blank makes few friends with genius take on NHS and Brexit

MPs find health secretary's no-deal contingency plans have more than a few holes*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-friends-when-grilled-over-the-nhs-and-brexit

Its hard to believe that this is all so unnecessary  We are harming ourselves and for what??

No deal, isnt a 'deal' Elles. No deal was never even on the table but now it is the overton window has shifted & Mays deal which would have been a hard deal is now seen as a soft deal compared to the crashing out 'deal'.

Thanks to Tommy Robinson, Farage, Nuttall, the hard right tories the far right IS rising here. We were warned racists would be emboldened by a vote to leave. Some of us posted about the risk before the referendum, its one of the reasons many remainers voted the way they did. Of course it was dismissed as scaremongering or whatever

If anything UKIP will be obsolete because the Tory party has shifted so far to the right for all intents and purposes it is UKIP!. I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason racist Nigel had left UKIP to join the tory party.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The British parliament must be "very careful" not to "get out of step with where the public are on Brexit" or risk "real social instability," U.K. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Times on Friday.
> 
> Urging MPs to back Prime Minister Theresa May's divorce deal in their crunch vote Tuesday, Hunt said lawmakers must "not just think about what our own views on Brexit are, but we have to think what is the solution that is going to bring the country together."
> 
> Asked whether violent protests like those by the Yellow Jackets in France could take place in the U.K., Hunt replied that holding a second referendum in which Remain narrowly won would cause those who voted Leave to become "incredibly angry."
> 
> "I wouldn't rule out real social instability in this country," he said.


One way or another, this country will tear itself apart. Brexit will sink it.


----------



## Magyarmum

What a pathetic little man!

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/corbyn-interview


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> What a pathetic little man!
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/corbyn-interview


For all his weaknesses on brexit he isnt malicious and cruel like the morally bankrupt tories. He is trying to unite the country >>>>


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071300141636861952


----------



## noushka05

What right minded person would vote for this?

*Henry Zeffman*‏Verified account @hzeffman
EXCLUSIVE: Ministers will have the power to overrule doctors' prescriptions in case medicines run out after Brexit. Urgent government consultation launched on Tuesday, leaked to The Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ab72c6f0-f9af-11e8-83e5-4dc2d31f2a89

*Dr Lauren Gavaghan*‏: W_ell I do hope you're all reassured by this news.

Govt, yes, the people currently causing the country to go under, are now suggesting they* will contact pharmacies if there's no Brexit deal, & alter medicine prescriptions without contact with Drs._

.....................................................................................................................................................


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> From the Brexit Exposed Facebook page :
> 
> FOREIGN SECRETARY LIKENS LEAVE VOTERS TO THUGS AND CRIMINALS | Jeremy Hunt thinks a second referendum would turn many Leave voters into a lawless, rioting mob.
> 
> The Foreign Secretary clearly doesn't think highly of the sense of law abidance from his Brexit supporters.
> 
> If previous demonstrations from Leave voters are anything to go by, the volume and demographic composition of them would not pose any law and order threat, contrary to the 'Project Fear' conjured up by the Foreign Secretary.
> 
> And since when was the national interest governed by a minority mob, Jeremy Hunt?
> 
> Like | Follow | Share


What JH has said is tosh about leave voters. I am sorry but I am a law abiding citizen. How dare he liken me to a criminal and lawless rioting thug.

Personally I cannot stand the man full stop.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> What a pathetic little man!
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/corbyn-interview


I saw the interview with him in Portugal yesterday on the news. He really thinks the deal is renegotiable. He is a silly old man.

Yes that is right. Whilst the EU withdrawal bill is being debated in Parliament he is in Portugal.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> *The British parliament must be "very careful" not to "get out of step with where the public are on Brexit" or risk "real social instability," *U.K. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Times on Friday.
> 
> Urging MPs to back Prime Minister Theresa May's divorce deal in their crunch vote Tuesday, Hunt said lawmakers must "not just think about what our own views on Brexit are, but we have to think what is the solution that is going to bring the country together."
> 
> Asked whether violent protests like those by the Yellow Jackets in France could take place in the U.K., Hunt replied that holding a second referendum in which Remain narrowly won would cause those who voted Leave to become "incredibly angry."
> 
> "I wouldn't rule out real social instability in this country," he said.


Being annoyingly simplistic, there is only one way to find out where the public are on Brexit, and that is to put the options in front of them and let them choose.

I am always a tad cynical when "the people I talk to on the streets" always seem to agree with the MP's own views on the subject. (Any subject, for that matter!)

And if 'where the public are' is narrowly in favour of Remain (which I doubt) then it is the government's job to prevent illegal social unrest just as it would have been had such unrest surfaced from Remainers 2 1/2 years ago. Fear of unrest is not a valid reason to refuse a referendum.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Being annoyingly simplistic, there is only one way to find out where the public are on Brexit, and that is to put the options in front of them and let them choose.
> 
> I am always a tad cynical when "the people I talk to on the streets" always seem to agree with the MP's own views on the subject. (Any subject, for that matter!)
> 
> And if 'where the public are' is narrowly in favour of Remain (which I doubt) then it is the government's job to prevent illegal social unrest just as it would have been had such unrest surfaced from Remainers 2 1/2 years ago. Fear of unrest is not a valid reason to refuse a referendum.


What IMO I consider to be a very balanced article on the subject by The Conversation - written only two days ago.

https://theconversation.com/brexit-is-it-possible-to-stop-it-107750


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> What right minded person would vote for this?
> 
> *Henry Zeffman*‏Verified account @hzeffman
> EXCLUSIVE: Ministers will have the power to overrule doctors' prescriptions in case medicines run out after Brexit. Urgent government consultation launched on Tuesday, leaked to The Times
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ab72c6f0-f9af-11e8-83e5-4dc2d31f2a89
> 
> *Dr Lauren Gavaghan*‏: W_ell I do hope you're all reassured by this news.
> 
> Govt, yes, the people currently causing the country to go under, are now suggesting they* will contact pharmacies if there's no Brexit deal, & alter medicine prescriptions without contact with Drs._
> 
> .....................................................................................................................................................


Do you not think this could be a way to prevent patients from stockpiling medicines in the face of all the "You're all going to die" hyperbole? Everyone knows the threat of a shortage of anything can _create_ that shortage.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> What IMO I consider to be a very balanced article on the subject by The Conversation - written only two days ago.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/brexit-is-it-possible-to-stop-it-107750


Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

As an aside, I do like the way commentators are talking about May getting Parliament to vote on her deal for a second time if she is defeated first time. No doubt she would tweak her offer and claim that it is a new vote on a new option. But she won't countenance offering the same opportunity to the People, even when the changes over the last 2 years or so could fairly be described as considerably more than a 'tweak'!


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Do you not think this could be a way to prevent patients from stockpiling medicines in the face of all the "You're all going to die" hyperbole? Everyone knows the threat of a shortage of anything can _create_ that shortage.


My sentiments exactly.

My son has been a Type i diabetic from being a teenager and he has a three month prescription for his insulin. It's inevitable that some doctors will over prescribe essential drugs if put under pressure by certain patients which as has been mentioned would lead to an unequal distribution as well as creating a shortage.

I remember in South Africa, a work colleague of mine, used to persuade her doctor to prescribe far more drugs than she actually needed, This meant she always had some left over by the time her next prescription was due, which she would sell to anyone who wanted them!


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 That is now 3 recent posts of mine you have replied to where you change what I said. There is a difference between no deal and Brexit. I said hard brexit, not hard deal, so you're arguing against a point I didn't make again.


----------



## Magyarmum

Another balanced opinion from Tyler Cohen a Professor of Economics writing for Bloomberg

It's so refreshing to read something without the hysteria, fanatical fervour and hyperbole favoured by so many.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...=CapX+briefing&utm_campaign=088aa517e6-EMAIL_


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> More & more revelations being unearthed on the Kochs and their dark money, this time how they are fuelling the hard right . Great scoop here by awesome George Monbiot & Desmog.
> 
> *How US billionaires are fuelling the hard-right cause in Britain*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...spiked-magazine-charles-david-koch-foundation


George Monbiot asked Spiked how much money they had received from Koch and they replied and told him, with links showing where the funding went. They have a copy of the communication on their webpage.

I'm sure plenty of US billionaires put money into causes they agree with, both in and out of the U.K. and some of them probably aren't nice people, or funding projects we'd all agree with. $300k over 3 years is pocket change to US billionaires.

I hadn't heard of Spiked until it was brought up in this article, but it appears it's a niche online magazine edited by a journalist who blogged for the Guardian and other news resources and has a column in The Big Issue, and the money was actually given to Spiked US and spent on projects in the US. So it's hard to get wound up about it. Sorry Noushka.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Panic stations, she's having a send minsters around the country try get get people to get their MPs to vote for her deal, she must be getting worried. If she having to resort to this, we might as well have a Peoples Vote, it amounts to the name thing.


----------



## Britt

Happy Paws said:


> Panic stations, she's having a send minsters around the country try get get people to get their MPs to vote for her deal, she must be getting worried. If she having to resort to this, we might as well have a Peoples Vote, it amounts to the name thing.


I wish she would leave but I guess that you have to find a decent PM candidate first.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Panic stations, she's having a send minsters around the country try get get people to get their MPs to vote for her deal, she must be getting worried. If she having to resort to this, we might as well have a Peoples Vote, it amounts to the name thing.


I do wonder if that's why she's doing it. The MPs themselves are wondering why the ministers aren't talking to them instead. It's looking not dissimilar to a campaign for the People's Vote ...


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I do wonder if that's why she's doing it. The MPs themselves are wondering why the ministers aren't talking to them instead. It's looking not dissimilar to a campaign for the People's Vote ...


If you keep your 'Theresa May wants to stay in the Eu' hat on... :Hilarious

It probably looks as though her deal will fail and this is plan B, which has been plan A from the start.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> George Monbiot asked Spiked how much money they had received from Koch and they replied and told him, with links showing where the funding went. They have a copy of the communication on their webpage.
> 
> I'm sure plenty of US billionaires put money into causes they agree with, both in and out of the U.K. and some of them probably aren't nice people, or funding projects we'd all agree with. $300k over 3 years is pocket change to US billionaires.
> 
> I hadn't heard of Spiked until it was brought up in this article, but it appears it's a niche online magazine edited by a journalist who blogged for the Guardian and other news resources and has a column in The Big Issue, and the money was actually given to Spiked US and spent on projects in the US. So it's hard to get wound up about it. Sorry Noushka.


OMG Elles, I hope you're wearing your tin hat and full body armour because very shortly you're going to be s***t on from great heights!

How could you not possibly know that the Koch brothers are the greatest threat to democracy since Stalin, the Illuminati, Rasputin, the Knights Templar and a few others I can't think of, all rolled up into one!

This is the reply I got which will put you right and make you change your ways ...... but be afraid ...... very very afraid of what is about to happen to you!!

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...talk-about-it.497876/page-157#post-1065314314


----------



## Happy Paws2

Britt said:


> I wish she would leave but I* guess that you have to find a decent PM candidate first.*


That's the problem, who would we get not Boris PLEASE


----------



## Elles

@Magyarmum I'm not putting a link to the page with the communication and videos, because I wouldn't want some of the people on it finding petforums and heading here lol. But in this particular instance it's a storm in an egg cup imho.


Magyarmum said:


> OMG Elles, I hope you're wearing your tin hat and full body armour because very shortly you're going to be s***t on from great heights!
> 
> How could you not possibly know that the Koch brothers are the greatest threat to democracy since Stalin, the Illuminati, Rasputin, the Knights Templar and a few others I can't think of, all rolled up into one!
> 
> This is the reply I got which will put you right and make you change your ways ...... but be afraid ...... very very afraid of what is about to happen to you!!
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...talk-about-it.497876/page-157#post-1065314314


Oh I see. Well in this instance it's pocket change and not proof of any secretive, underhand dealings involving billions of dollars. However, I didn't look it up to discredit the post, so I was quite disappointed to see that in this case it's verging on fake news and sensationalism. I fully expect billionaires to fund projects they like, sometimes it's projects I also like and sometimes it isn't. If they have our politicians in their back pockets and use that illegally to cause us harm for the fun of it, it's newsworthy, but unfortunately (or should I say fortunately) that wasn't the case here.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If you keep your 'Theresa May wants to stay in the Eu' hat on... :Hilarious
> 
> It probably looks as though her deal will fail and this is plan B, which has been plan A from the start.


I've seen that idea mooted elsewhere, but it requires a Machiavellian expertise that I really don't think May possesses. She's taking brinkswomanship to extraordinarily lengths with her attempts to persuade people to support her deal if she secretly really does want them to reject it.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I've seen that idea mooted elsewhere, but it requires a Machiavellian expertise that I really don't think May possesses. She's taking brinkswomanship to extraordinarily lengths with her attempts to persuade people to support her deal if she secretly really does want them to reject it.


You do have to keep your 'TM for Remain' hat on, but like you said, it's the public that are being targeted.


----------



## Elles

So Jeremy Corbyn is in Portugal (thx STC) having just visited Mexico. He’s calling the Eu neoliberal and blaming it for populism and Brexit, at the same time as saying he can negotiate a better deal. Is he crazy? Or is this just reporting? Labour members don’t seem very happy about it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> So Jeremy Corbyn is in Portugal (thx STC) having just visited Mexico. He's calling the Eu neoliberal and blaming it for populism and Brexit, at the same time as saying he can negotiate a better deal. Is he crazy? Or is this just reporting? Labour members don't seem very happy about it.


He is a dangerous man. For Labour. How could he sabotage Remain knowing what Brexit means for " the People " even if " the People " had been duped he was not believing in the buses?

What side he is on? No the People! Not even Labour. He just wants to be a next PM no matter what, just like Boris. Sacrifice the country, split the party, ruthlessly force your stand as voting Article 50 through. Jeremy The Rebel was no sympathetic to his own party?

Boris - you can expect of, Jeremy - same burning ambition... supporter of Good Friday forcing Article 50?

Both are populists.
Egomaniacs.

Swing them low...


----------



## Arnie83

I must admit I'm beginning to lose track a bit here ...

With Moggie's ERG voting against May's Deal because it doesn't deliver the Brexit they want, and Labour voting against it because it doesn't meet their fantasy Brexit, and moderate Tories voting against it because it's worse than staying in, and May saying it's the best damned Brexit there could ever be; who are currently the Enemies of the People?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I must admit I'm beginning to lose track a bit here ...
> 
> With Moggie's ERG voting against May's Deal because it doesn't deliver the Brexit they want, and Labour voting against it because it doesn't meet their fantasy Brexit, and moderate Tories voting against it's worse that staying in, and May saying it's the best damned Brexit there could ever be; who are currently the Enemies of the People?


Those who voted through Article 50 and got us in this mess? Cameron who promised the referendum to please the ERG?
ERG and UKIP are to blame for the unicorn Brexit that will free us all!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I must admit I'm beginning to lose track a bit here ...
> 
> With Moggie's ERG voting against May's Deal because it doesn't deliver the Brexit they want, and Labour voting against it because it doesn't meet their fantasy Brexit, and moderate Tories voting against it because it's worse than staying in, and May saying it's the best damned Brexit there could ever be; who are currently the Enemies of the People?


The Russians ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> The Russians ?


And yes, Putin cyber army... nothing they like better than to destroy EU and control East and Central Europe. As before.
I also blame Merkel by her so insensitive approach to refugee crisis. If anything provided fuel for populists and xenophobs - she did. 
Since when Britain was happy to take orders from Germany? 
I am glad to see her gone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Will Quince, Tory MP for Colchester, has quit as ministerial aide to Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson, a Government source revealed tonight.

The politician told The Sunday Telegraph: "I wanted to support this Withdrawal Agreement, and I still want to support it, but unless the backstop is addressed to include either an end date or a unilateral exit mechanism, I cannot support it and so am resigning from the Government as a Parliamentary Private Secretary.

"I implore the Prime Minister to go back to the European Union and find another way, to make this Withdrawal Agreement something we can all support."


----------



## cheekyscrip

@noushka05 I cannot pm you!!!


----------



## Jesthar

I'm at a cat show this weekend, and my stall is next to a couple of chaos I know well. One is German and raised a couple of Brexit related points I hadn't considered before. 

First is that the Brexit debacle has thrown Germany into political instability, and extreme political parties are on an upswing. Some are drawing parallels with the political climate of the 1930s...

Secondly, what was I going to do for cat food in the event of a no deal Brexit, as WTO import laws would make importing it very difficult, even for big companies like Royal Canin (their distribution center is in France). He's pretty well connected in that area, and some companies (even big ones) may simply abandon the UK market as not worth the effort given all the hoops and red tape which will be involved. 

Given I feed German food brands because of the superior quality for a very good price, that did make me wonder what other everyday necessities I hadn't considered might vanish in a no deal scenario


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> First is that the Brexit debacle has thrown Germany into political instability, and extreme political parties are on an upswing. Some are drawing parallels with the political climate of the 1930s...


I understand what you are saying, but I suspect that Germany may have been heading in this direction even without Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

According to Theresa May they're getting the Brexit they voted for, but seems they're threatening civil unrest anyway....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-vests-met-police-gilets-jaunes-a8673821.html


----------



## KittenKong

More reason not to back her plan!
More lies though: You'll still have Brexit with Corbyn.

From the BBC









What's more: Corbyn would only get in if he won a General Election.

That would be, "The Will of the People", if that were to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It's funny because when remainers have protest marches the word civil unrest isn't used but when leave voters have a protest march immediately remainers and remain supporting media suspect there will be unrest. Why?

This is Paris yesterday:




This is what you call civil disorder/unrest. Protesters have been smashing windows, setting cars on fire, looting shops and breaking into banks etc. The military were called in last night in Paris (news reporters on France24 saw military helicopters flying around).

I doubt there will be any civil unrest in London today it is a peaceful protest like remainers have peaceful protests.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt there will be any civil unrest in London today it is a peaceful protest like remainers have peaceful protests.


So, even though this is organised by a far right Islamophobic thug you reckon it'll be a peaceful demonstration?

I would have liked to have thought many Brexiters would oppose anything organised by the likes of Yaxley-Lennon.

You only have to look at the "Free Tommy" demos. They were hardly peaceful were they?


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> It's funny because when remainers have protest marches the word civil unrest isn't used but when leave voters have a protest march immediately remainers and remain supporting media suspect there will be unrest. Why?
> 
> This is Paris yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you call civil disorder/unrest. Protesters have been smashing windows, setting cars on fire, looting shops and breaking into banks etc. The military were called in last night in Paris (news reporters on France24 saw military helicopters flying around).
> 
> I doubt there will be any civil unrest in London today it is a peaceful protest like remainers have peaceful protests.


I feel sorry for the police having to deal with these idiots.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> It's funny because when remainers have protest marches the word civil unrest isn't used but when leave voters have a protest march immediately remainers and remain supporting media suspect there will be unrest. Why?
> 
> This is Paris yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you call civil disorder/unrest. Protesters have been smashing windows, setting cars on fire, looting shops and breaking into banks etc. The military were called in last night in Paris (news reporters on France24 saw military helicopters flying around).
> 
> I doubt there will be any civil unrest in London today it is a peaceful protest like remainers have peaceful protests.


Regrettably there is a clear precedence of violence at demonstrations organised by the groups involved here.

Remain marches, in contrast, appear to have been rather less belligerent and more positive protest in attitude and atmosphere, despite their usually much greater size, which may be why the police usually seem much less worried beforehand


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see a group of remainers with the yellow bus have shown up in London. Don't remainers like that they aren't getting any attention for one day.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Regrettably there is a clear precedence of violence at demonstrations organised by the groups involved here.
> 
> Remain marches, in contrast, appear to have been rather less belligerent and more positive protest in attitude and atmosphere, despite their usually much greater size, which may be why the police usually seem much less worried beforehand


There have been arrests at the remain protests.


----------



## Magyarmum

France unlike the UK has a long history of revolt - think the French Revolution

https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-protests-aux-barricades-long-history-revolt


----------



## Vanessa131

KittenKong said:


> So, even though this is organised by a far right Islamophobic thug you reckon it'll be a peaceful demonstration?
> 
> I would have liked to have thought many Brexiters would oppose anything organised by the likes of Yaxley-Lennon.
> 
> You only have to look at the "Free Tommy" demos. They were hardly peaceful were they?


There have been some small protests here, sadly we have had some very violent brexit protests. Just like violent remainers they are a minority, but sadly, we tend to focus on the bad rather than the good. All of our brexit demos have been very right wing and incredibly racist.

I would like to remain, but I don't think I would go on a march or anything like that.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> There have been arrests at the remain protests.


I didn't say they were perfect, just comparatively benign.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> There have been arrests at the remain protests.


"There were "no significant arrests" made after thousands took to central London for a People's Vote march, police said.

"A spokeswoman for the Metropolitan Police has confirmed there were no significant arrests made during the day of the large march.

"People's Vote UK said 700,000 people attended the protest, which was calling for a fresh referendum on Brexit."​
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...ands-attend-people-s-vote-march-a3967256.html


----------



## Arnie83

Vanessa131 said:


> There have been some small protests here, sadly we have had some very violent brexit protests. Just like violent remainers they are a minority, but sadly, we tend to focus on the bad rather than the good. All of our brexit demos have been very right wing and incredibly racist.
> 
> *I would like to remain, but I don't think I would go on a march or anything like that.*


I went on the huge London one, with at least 700,000 people. It was completely peaceful from what I saw, except for a late-middle aged gentleman shouting at people holding a poster suggesting Boris Johnson wasn't entirely trustworthy.

I wouldn't call it a 'march' though; I couldn't see any discernible effort to keep in step!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I see a group of remainers with the yellow bus have shown up in London. Don't remainers like that they aren't getting any attention for one day.


They are counter protests, but this is mainly against Yaxley-Lennon rather than against Brexit. No one is criticising a pro Brexit demo, it's the person who's organised it who's made his fortune in promoting fascism and hatred that bothers many people. I'd like to think they'll be some pro Brexiters attending the counter protests too.

Perhaps with banners like, "Brexiters against fascism" or, "Yes to Brexit, no to " Tommy""?

Certainly, if I supported Brexit I wouldn't want to be associated with the likes of him.

It even concerns Farage and Paul Nuttal, but reckon it's more that Yaxley-Lennon is getting the support and publicity they used to enjoy.

Then, with themselves having a far right agenda, there's always someone worse than they are that succeeds them....


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> France unlike the UK has a long history of revolt - think the French Revolution
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-protests-aux-barricades-long-history-revolt


Oliver Cromwell says Hi.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> I'd like to think they'll be some pro Brexiters attending the counter protests too.


https://morningstaronline.co.uk/art...-to-london-to-counter-protest-far-right-march


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Oliver Cromwell says Hi.


Ah yes .... Dear Oli, I knew him well!

I could be wrong but I don't think we've had any revolutions since Oli?

We might be on our umpteenth monarch but not our 5th Republic like France.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-france-its-fifth-republic-180962983/


----------



## Elles

Its not just Remainers countering this march @stockwellcat. .

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...inster-ukip-edl-austerity-march-a8672461.html

https://labourlist.org/2018/12/leav...e-tommy-robinson-and-must-fight-him-together/

Leave or Remain against fascism and Tommy Robinson. Articles about why his group should not be allowed to hijack brexit and why Remainers shouldn't legitimise his protest by using it to promote remain.


----------



## MilleD

Vanessa131 said:


> There have been some small protests here, sadly we have had some very violent brexit protests. Just like violent remainers they are a minority, but sadly, we tend to focus on the bad rather than the good. All of our brexit demos have been very right wing and incredibly racist.
> 
> I would like to remain, but I don't think I would go on a march or anything like that.


I wouldn't go anywhere near something like this, purely because of the people that turn up just to cause trouble, regardless of what the 'protest' is about.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I suspect that Germany may have been heading in this direction even without Brexit.


Yes in deed . I think many Germans have been pissed with Merkels policies for some time. 
France has already been mentioned and Italy is in trouble with the EU for sticking to their controversial budget . I think they were fined but whether they will pay it or not....


----------



## stockwellcat.

Thousands have turned out for the Brexit Betrayal March.









































And thousands on the counter march against Tommy Robinson









I feel though say Nigel Farage had organised this protest march (he has recently disassociated himself with UKIP because of Tommy Robinson and threatened to start his own new political party) remainers would have still opposed any leave protest yet it is alright for them to have their marches and protests.

Yes I agree that Tommy Robinson probably shouldn't have attended this protest. Still the Brexit Betrayal protest is very calm right now. No civil unrest as predicted.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> I wouldn't go anywhere near something like this, purely because of the people that turn up just to cause trouble, regardless of what the 'protest' is about.


Have you ever got caught up in a protest march?

I have once coming home after work in Durban. Not quite the same as Paris or the UK but very scary nevertheless, being surrounded by (mainly) men brandishing machetes and assegai and chanting with the police firing random gun shots in the air as well as police on horseback milling around!

Fortunately when I got to the main street, the security guard at one of the large stores was standing by the door to let anyone in who wanted to get away from the march. I stayed there for an hour until all the protesters had passed.


----------



## Elles

Do you think there would have been more pro brexit marchers if it was a pro brexit demonstration and had nothing to do with people like Tommy Robinson? Actually it’s quite likely if brexiteers were marching against him.


----------



## KittenKong

Guess it had to happen....









https://www.comparethebrexit.com/


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Do you think there would have been more pro brexit marchers if it was a pro brexit demonstration and had nothing to do with people like Tommy Robinson? Actually it's quite likely if brexiteers were marching against him.


Guess some will innocently believe it's just that, a pro Brexit demo, especially with UKIP'S endorsement. Then they now endorse people like Yaxley-Lennon.

They'll be exceptions of course, but most Brexit supporters that counter protest against Y-L will most likely to be Lexiters I'd imagine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Have you ever got caught up in a protest march?


I did when I lived in Holland. I was on my way home from work and interchanging trams in Amsterdam to my home destination in Osdorp. Amsterdam Leidseplein was rammed full of Moroccan protesters stood on top of tram and bus shelters and the Leidseplein was rammed full of protesters with banners chanting, all the trams and buses stopped and the Politie (Dutch Police) stood there in very small numbers. I went to a pub I frequented and waited until I heard it had moved on and the trams were running again so I could go home.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I did when I lived in Holland. I was on my way home from work and interchanging trams in Amsterdam to my home destination is Osdorp. Amsterdam Leidseplein was rammed full of Moroccan protesters stood on top of tram and bus shelters and the Leidseplein was rammed full of protesters with banners chanting, all the trams and buses stopped and the Politie (Dutch Police) stood there in very small numbers. I went to a pub I frequented and waited until I heard it had moved on and the trams were running again so I could go home.


I was living in London at the time and almost went to the anti Poll Tax demo with others. I don't remember exactly what prevented us at the end but the first I'd heard of any trouble was an announcement at Kings Cross Northern Line with the announcement no trains would be running southbound due to the trouble there.

I was going to the White Horse in Hampstead so I wasn't affected. Don't remember which bands I'd gone to see though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't mean to go off topic. But....

Labour reckons it could be in power by Wednesday if the Withdrawal Agreement is rejected on Tuesday.
*Jeremy Corbyn could be prime minister in days if Brexit deal rejected, Labour says*
https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-c...-if-brexit-deal-rejected-labour-says-11576164
Jeremy Corbyn could take over as prime minister of a minority government on Wednesday morning if MPs reject Theresa May's Brexit deal, Labour has told Sky News.

Dominic Grieve has said he believes:
*'This may be end for Conservative Party'*
https://news.sky.com/video/this-may-be-end-for-conservative-party-11576146


----------



## stockwellcat.

No trouble on the Brexit Betrayal march which has now ended but Police officers push back protesters in Trafalgar Square taking part in the anti-fascist counter-demonstration.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> It's funny because when remainers have protest marches the word civil unrest isn't used but when leave voters have a protest march immediately remainers and remain supporting media suspect there will be unrest. Why?
> 
> This is Paris yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you call civil disorder/unrest. Protesters have been smashing windows, setting cars on fire, looting shops and breaking into banks etc. The military were called in last night in Paris (news reporters on France24 saw military helicopters flying around).
> 
> I doubt there will be any civil unrest in London today it is a peaceful protest like remainers have peaceful protests.


Fingers crossed: what is happening in Paris is really awful. ''La ville de l'amour'' is what it used to be called.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the likes of Yaxley-Lennon.


He dumped that name as it was obviously too posh (which sort of tells you a bit about him!!)


----------



## stockwellcat.

It looks like the counter protest has had skimishes whilst the Brexit Betrayal march passed off peacefully:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071778311154647040Looks like police moved in on horse back with the counter protest.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Do you think there would have been more pro brexit marchers if it was a pro brexit demonstration and had nothing to do with people like Tommy Robinson? Actually it's quite likely if brexiteers were marching against him.


I don't know how many marchers there were, but I don't know that there would have been enormous numbers without Yaxley-Lennon. We are leaving the EU and neither the government nor Parliament are about to change that.

The 700,000 of us marching for a People's Vote want something that wasn't - and still isn't - being offered; an informed vote. Pro-Brexit marchers would in effect simply be an anti-People's Vote protest. I'm not sure that has the same emotional appeal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So who do the counter protesters represent? Remain? If so it is them that have shown themselves up today as the police have moved in on your groups. The unrest didn't come from the Brexit Betrayal side marchers as predicted the counter protesters are the ones that have police on horse back breaking them up looking at the video footage now emerging.


----------



## Elles

There are going to be idiots with an agenda infiltrating the groups. That’s what most of the violence in France came from. If the pro brexit supporters have an ounce of sense, if they are going to provoke anything, they’ll start it on the other side, so I’d wait to see who was arrested and why first.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The counter protesters should be ashamed of themselves. Who did they represent by the way? Remainers?

The Brexit Betrayal march was peaceful and ended peacefully as well.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 380316
> 
> View attachment 380319
> 
> View attachment 380323
> 
> 
> The counter protesters should be ashamed of themselves. Who did they represent by the way? Remainers?
> 
> The Brexit Betrayal march was peaceful and ended peacefully as well.


From a pro "Tommy" source I guess?
No, they do not represent Remainers, they represent anti fascists that may include Remainers, Brexiters, even neutrals. They're united against fascism and the vile hate preaching from someone even "The Sun" to their rare credit regards as a thug.

You don't really condone someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon do you?

Well, what do you think of this SWC?
As much as I detest Theresa May this is disgusting. I understand the police are now investigating.

I want to see May ousted, deprived of her power and relegated to the back benches, but this sort of thing should never be condoned..


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> From a pro "Tommy" source I guess?


No. The Evening Standard newspaper.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, what do you think of this SWC?
> As much as I detest Theresa May this is disgusting. I understand the police are now investigating.
> 
> I want to see May ousted, deprived of her power and relegated to the back benches, but this sort of thing should never be condoned..
> View attachment 380326


I agree with you on this and was annoyed someone actually done this.

But it wasn't the Brexit supporting protesters that kicked off was it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here you go @KittenKong all the photos displayed above are in this news report:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...man-carrying-noose-at-probrexit-a4012521.html

Brexit supporters can have peaceful marches and protests to but it looks like remainers tried to stop this and showed themselves up.

I do not support Tommy Robinson either kittenkong but I do support Brexit and want to see it happen.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Here you go @KittenKong all the photos displayed above are in this news report: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...man-carrying-noose-at-probrexit-a4012521.html
> 
> Brexit supporters can have peaceful marches and protests to but it looks like remainers tried to stop this and showed themselves up.


You are misinterpreting an anti Yaxley-Lennon protest as an anti Brexit demo. I repeat- anti fascists would have counter protested, regardless of how they voted in the referendum. Yes, some might have been Remainers but you're wrong to suggest they all were.

And I'm not arguing anti fascist Brexiters started any of the violence either! Unfortunately, as with the Poll Tax demo unrest can and does arise.

This was not just a pro Brexit demo. It was a way of publicity for its organiser Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and his followers.

People like him shouldn't be given publicity whether or not he leads a protest which is in favour of something you support.

Some I've seen on social media suggest he should be Prime Minister.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 380316
> 
> View attachment 380319
> 
> View attachment 380323
> 
> 
> The counter protesters should be ashamed of themselves. *Who did they represent by the way? Remainers?*
> 
> The Brexit Betrayal march was peaceful and ended peacefully as well.


The very first words of your post says they are "anti-fascist counter demonstrators".

So, no, not Remainers - though some or most might be - but anti-fascists.

Are you trying to tar Remainers with accusations of violent behaviour? If so, may I ask why? Apart from being silly, it doesn't seem to me likely to benefit either the discussion or the thread.


----------



## KittenKong

https://metro.co.uk/2018/12/09/tommy-robinson-vastly-outnumbered-people-marching-8225117/


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...p-met-police-london-theresa-may-a8674561.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Are you trying to tar Remainers with accusations of violent behaviour? If so, may I ask why?


Not nice is it when people are tarred with the same brush is it. From day one of the referendum result everyone that voted leave was tarred with the same brush from reamain voters who called leave voters racist etc etc when most of us aren't and are law abiding citizens who feel that the UK would do better outside of the EU. But when something like what happened today happens you're quick at accusing leave voters of tarring yourselves with the same brush as those that counter demonstrated against the Brexit march/protest.


----------



## KittenKong

Did anyone think it would come to this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...yal-march-protest-gerard-batten-a8675156.html


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Not nice is it when people are tarred with the same brush is it. From day one of the referendum result everyone that voted leave was tarred with the same brush from reamain voters who called leave voters racist etc etc when must of us aren't and are law abiding citizens who feel that the UK would do better outside of the EU. But when something like what happened today happens you're quick at accusing leave voters of tarring yourselves with the same brush as those that counter demonstrated against the Brexit march/protrest.


Sorry, you are being rather unfair there, especially to Arnie.

My recent posts have stressed counter protests against Yaxley-Lennon will have been attended by anti fascists regardless of how they voted in the referendum in 2016.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Sorry, you are being rather unfair there, especially to Arnie.
> 
> My recent posts have stressed counter protests against Yaxley-Lennon will have been attended by anti fascists regardless of how they voted in the referendum in 2016.


So it's fair is it that the abuse leave voters got being called racist etc being tarred with the same brush for 2 years and remainers have been allowed to do this because of their cause yet when something like what happened on the counter protests today where counter protesters started kicking off I get accused of tarring remainers with the same brush and get told I am being accused of breing nasty. Bit hipicritical and rich if you ask me when remainers have been doing the same thing to leave voters and offering no apology for 2 years.

My comment was not aimed at arnie specifically btw so was not personal at all.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Not nice is it when people are tarred with the same brush is it. From day one of the referendum result everyone that voted leave was tarred with the same brush from reamain voters who called leave voters racist etc etc when must of us aren't and are law abiding citizens who feel that the UK would do better outside of the EU. But when something like what happened today happens you're quick at accusing leave voters of tarring yourselves with the same brush as those that counter demonstrated against the Brexit march/protrest.


I understand that you feel very strongly on this subject, and that you feel you have been personally attacked via your affiliation with the Leave side.

I hope _you_ understand that I have always scrupulously made clear that any criticism I may have made of sections of Leave voters has never applied to all of them. I consider such generalisations to be particularly ignorant of facts, which I try to use at all times.

So if you think that your quoted post has any relevance to me, then I suggest you rethink. As for its implied criticism, I will take no offence, since I know that it is entirely inapplicable.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I understand that you feel very strongly on this subject, and that you feel you have been personally attacked via your affiliation with the Leave side.
> 
> I hope _you_ understand that I have always scrupulously made clear that any criticism I may have made of sections of Leave voters has never applied to all of them. I consider such generalisations to be particularly ignorant of facts, which I try to use at all times.
> 
> So if you think that your quoted post has any relevance to me, then I suggest you rethink. As for its implied criticism, I will take no offence, since I know that it is entirely inapplicable.


My post was not aimed at you personally I was simply answering the question/comment.


----------



## stockwellcat.

To be honest @KittenKong and @Arnie83 I am sick to death with the whole thing now. If we are to leave the EU lets get on with it instead of dancing around with what if's all the time. If not so be it. C'est la vie (that's life).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> To be honest @KittenKong and @Arnie83 I am sick to death with the whole thing now. If we are to leave the EU *lets get on with it *instead of dancing around with what if's all the time. If not so be it. C'est la vie (that's life).


I'm really sorry but I have to disagree again, although it's a sentiment that many Tory Brexiters have been pushing, for obvious reasons.

For me this really too important to "just get on with it" (google that phrase with Brexit and you'll see what I mean about the above). We need to get it right. It's going to affect the lives of our children and grandchildren. We owe it to them to not say, "Oh to hell with it, let's just do X" but to see it through to what we think is the right outcome both for us and for them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *It's going to affect the lives of our children and grandchildren*.


It is going to affect yours and mine to and the old people of today. Stop using the young as an excuse.
But still lets get on with it instead of messing around like May has done for the last 2 years.
Corbyn will be no different if he is PM on Wednesday like Labour threatened today.


----------



## jenny armour

Is there a difference between a Peoples vote and a second referendum?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It is going to affect yours and mine to and the old people of today. Stop using the young as an excuse.
> But still lets get on with it instead of messing around like May has done for the last 2 years.
> Corbyn will be no different if he is PM on Wednesday like Labour threatened today.


Sorry, but the young have to live with the consequences a lot longer than we have to. They might have to wait 50 years if Rees-Mogg's predictions are right. I'll be long dead.

Whatever happens on Tuesday May is here to stay unfortunately. She has no plans to resign. Corbyn could never take over as, even in the unlikely event all opposition parties merged into a progressive opposition they would still have less seats than the Tories even though they don't have an overall majority.

Why, "Just get on with it"? Are you suggesting they should vote in favour of May's plan just to get it out of the way?

I hope they don't give her the satisfaction.


----------



## KittenKong

jenny armour said:


> Is there a difference between a Peoples vote and a second referendum?


Yes. A second (or in reality a third) referendum suggests a re-run of the 2016 one. Wouldn't be good enough as it again fails to make it clear what exactly "Leaving" entails until Theresa May decided that, but very few Leavers agree that her plan is what they voted for.

A PV would ask for cancelling A50 and stay in the EU, accept May's deal or no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Why, "Just get on with it"? Are you suggesting they should vote in favour of May's plan just to get it out of the way?


Alot of remain voters want the government to just get on with it and to stop faffing around as well as much as some remainers on this thread hate to hear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Whatever happens on Tuesday May is here to stay unfortunately. *She has no plans to resign. *


Nor did Thatcher. Thatcher thought she was going to stay in power.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Corbyn could never take over as, even in the unlikely event all opposition parties merged into a progressive opposition they would still have less seats than the Tories even though they don't have an overall majority.


True.
So the alternative to May is?

Rees-Mogg?
Johnson?
Rudd?
Gove?
Raab?

Another GE is highly unlikely and so is a PV.

If Corbyn does get into power the UK is back at Referendum results day square one as he wants to take the negotiations back to day one, more uncertainity, more remainer protests etc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I hope they don't give her the satisfaction.


No one knows how the MP's will vote not even they do until the day of the vote as pointed out today on Sophy Ridge on Sunday show.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> True.
> So the alternative to May is?
> 
> Rees-Mogg?
> Johnson?
> Rudd?
> Gove?
> Raab?
> 
> Another GE is highly unlikely and so is a PV.
> 
> If Corbyn does get into power the UK is back at Referendum results day square one as he wants to take the negotiations back to day one, more uncertainity, more remainer protests etc.


There's others such as Amber Rudd, Philip Hammond, Leadsom, Jeremy Hunt and Esther McVeigh. Would be interesting if IDS put himself forward and won, seeing he cost the Tories their worst election defeat in 2001.

None of your list nor the above are any worse than May in my view. May is perhaps the most xenophobic of them however since she was the organ grinder for her hostile environment policy.

If she wins on Tuesday, God help us all is all I can say.......


----------



## noushka05

Caroilne Lucas was outstanding last night in C4s debate!
_
"Brexit is a project of the right, by the right, for the right ...._.."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071849205642096641
...


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I see a group of remainers with the yellow bus have shown up in London. Don't remainers like that they aren't getting any attention for one day.


They were standing up to fascists! 
*
A day of total and utter humiliation for Tommy Robinson and British fascism*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Caroilne Lucas was outstanding last night in C4s debate!
> _
> "Brexit is a project of the right, by the right, for the right ...._.."
> 
> https://www.tescomobile.com/?gclid=...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=COry6tfC4NwCFcOg7QodUXMBFw
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting the link, but I really don't want a Tesco mobile phone.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you for posting the link, but I really don't want a Tesco mobile phone.


I really don't know how that happened:Hilarious Thank you for the heads up though MM x 

I've now edited my post but here is the clip -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071849205642096641


----------



## noushka05

This is GENIUS!:Hilarious

LEAKED: Footage from Inside No. 10 Downing Street!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


Was this Andrew Clement Serkis (he played Gollum in the Lord of the Rings)?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I really don't know how that happened:Hilarious Thank you for the heads up though MM x
> 
> I've now edited my post but here is the clip -
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071849205642096641


Don't just put up a link to Caroline Lucas. Watch the entire program here and make up your own mind.


----------



## Arnie83

The ECJ have confirmed that the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU on current terms. That includes the rebate, a seat at the table, no euro, no Schengen. 

Not unexpected, but it adds a pinch of spice to the pot that we already have bubbling away in the Commons.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It is going to affect yours and mine to and the old people of today. Stop using the young as an excuse.
> But still lets get on with it instead of messing around like May has done for the last 2 years.
> Corbyn will be no different if he is PM on Wednesday like Labour threatened today.


I am not using the young as an excuse for anything. I am cognisant that their future is our responsibility. If this decision affected only us then I would not be so concerned about a sub-optimal choice, though I would no agree with it.

But the next generations have no say, so I think we should make sure that we get the best outcome for them rather than have history record that we chose option X because we were bored with the debate and wanted just to get it out of the way.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Although the ECJ have ruled that the UK does not need permission from the EU to withdraw from the Article 50 notification I doubt it will happen because the 2 main parties (Conservatives and Labour) want Brexit to happen so this will not be on the agenda.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I am not using the young as an excuse for anything. I am cognisant that their future is our responsibility. If this decision affected only us then I would not be so concerned about a sub-optimal choice, though I would no agree with it.
> 
> But the next generations have no say, so I think we should make sure that we get the best outcome for them rather than have history record that we chose option X because we were bored with the debate and wanted just to get it out of the way.


Alot of people that voted remain want the Government to get on with leaving as well (as they unlike some other remainers accept the result of the 2016 referendum and aren't keen on a 2nd referendum) it is not just leave voters voicing this.


----------



## Arnie83

jenny armour said:


> Is there a difference between a Peoples vote and a second referendum?


My interpretation is that a "second referendum" is only an accurate description if it asks the same question as the first one. And I think those who want to call it a second referendum are doing so because it adds weight to the argument that the decision has already been made and that a new referendum is therefore somehow undemocratic.

The 'People's Vote' - which I think is also a bad title, as it clearly seeks to appeal to a populist element - would be asking the voters to choose between the options that have arisen as a result of the government's extensive exploration of what Leaving the EU would actually mean. I would argue that democracy demands that people have the chance to change their minds, so 'Call the whole thing off' should be one of the options. The other would presumably be May's deal, and many would argue to include No Deal as well, though I have to say I probably wouldn't.

I currently think that May will get her eventual Deal through Parliament, though, and that no new referendum will be needed.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Alot of people that voted remain want the Government to get on with leaving as well (as they unlike some other remainers accept the result of the 2016 referendum and aren't keen on a 2nd referendum) it is not just leave voters voicing this.


Whether supporters of Leave or Remain the attitude that we should "just get on with it" - which was a soundbite I warned about a few weeks ago when the Leave campaign came up with it and told everyone to get on message by repeating it ad infinitum - represents a dereliction of duty towards current and future generations who have no say in the decision before Parliament.

'We couldn't be bothered any more' is, in my opinion, a shabby reason for curtailing efforts to reach the best decision for the people of the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Whether supporters of Leave or Remain the attitude that we should "just get on with it" - which was a soundbite I warned about a few weeks ago


Well I was unaware of this. I was going off opinion from people I know and what was in the press over the last 18 months not your prediction as I seem to have missed the post were you made this prediction


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I was unaware of this. I was going off opinion from people I know and what was in the press over the last 18 months not your prediction as I seem to have missed the post were you made this prediction


Fair enough.

18th October:


Arnie83 said:


> And the latest Brexiter ploy is to claim that what 'everyone' now wants is for the Government to "just get on with it". Listen out for the soundbite.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 18th October:


Thanks for pointing out where this was but people who voted remain and leave where already saying this from after the referendum result so I wouldn't say it was a Brexitier soundbite as such.


----------



## Arnie83

Cabinet conference call scheduled for some time in the next hour and a 3 line whip on Commons attendance today. Something's up, and speculation is that the vote tomorrow is going to be postponed. Watch this space.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Cabinet conference call scheduled for some time in the next hour and a 3 line whip on Commons attendance today. Something's up, and speculation is that the vote tomorrow is going to be postponed. Watch this space.


 There has been `noise` about postponing the vote for a few days now, of course officially denied but as we know with May`s government, denials mean nothing!


----------



## Jesthar

jenny armour said:


> Is there a difference between a Peoples vote and a second referendum?


I've always thought of the Peoples Vote as being a sort of 'Now you know more about exactly what Leave will entail (well, sort of), Are You Sure?'

Surely it would only be responsible of the government to ask if the negotiated deal looks anything like the one each Leave voter expected, otherwise they can hardly be regarded as 'respecting the Will of the People', can they?


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM's spokes person has just said that the vote is still going ahead tomorrow night in the last few minutes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> PM's spokes person has just said that the vote is still going ahead tomorrow night in the last few minutes.


I do hope so, although May is running scared. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at No.10 at the moment.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sounds like the vote has been postponed, she really is running scared.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> Sounds like the vote has been postponed, she really is running scared.


Agreed.

May is making a statement to the Commons @ 3.30. Sounding more and more like a postponement.


----------



## kimthecat

Is it good or bad if the vote is postponed?
It seems the majority of people on both sides dont want it to pass.


----------



## Elles

So Caroline Lucas voted in favour of holding a referendum, but now she wants leave voters to be given the choice between May’s deal, which she says is a terrible deal, and nothing. Not a no deal, not a Norway plus deal, not the deal Caroline Lucas would have offered if the people voted leave in a referendum she voted to have, not even a chance at a tweak, or a pie in the sky chance at a labour renegotiation deal. Theresa May’s deal, or nothing at all. That’s how I see it.


----------



## Magyarmum

*Next Tory leader to be someone you hate even more*
10th December 2018








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A Bet365 spokesman said: "We're thinking Jeremy Hunt. But really anyone'll do.

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"A government that barely won one out of three elections to pursue deeply unpopular policies simply has nobody left but twats. Prepare for your hatred to reach terrifying new peaks.

"But don't worry. It doesn't matter, because whoever it is you can't vote them out."


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> May is making a statement to the Commons @ 3.30. Sounding more and more like a postponement.


Well she can't accuse the EU of bullying her this time, it's the "Enemy Within", IE: Parliament.

She can't say Brexit isn't reversible anymore seeing it's been confirmed the UK government can revoke A50 unilaterally without the permission from the 27 member states.

How much longer can this go on for? The Chequers deal was rejected, a few short term concessions here and there, only to be rightly rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike.

With each second she's looking more desperate and pathetic.

It's like when Thatcher proposed the Poll Tax. Many advised her against it but she went ahead with it anyway.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So Caroline Lucas voted in favour of holding a referendum, but now she wants leave voters to be given the choice between May's deal, which she says is a terrible deal, and nothing. Not a no deal, not a Norway plus deal, not the deal Caroline Lucas would have offered if the people voted leave in a referendum she voted to have, not even a chance at a tweak, or a pie in the sky chance at a labour renegotiation deal. Theresa May's deal, or nothing at all. That's how I see it.


I'm not sure I would disagree with Caroline, to be honest. We know what May's deal looks like, and we know what the current deal is. A No Deal Brexit is only favoured by the fevered, and while Norway's current deal is known we don't know what Norway plus might look like (it might end up as Norway minus, or current deal minus), and the EU are not going to negotiate a potential deal for another year or so just so we can have another option on the ballot paper. And that's assuming that Norway would agree to us muscling in on the EEA, which recently they have said they won't.

If the final, decisive referendum has to be held in the next few months then we are pretty much left with just the two options that Ms Lucas mentions.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well she can't accuse the EU of bullying her this time, it's the "Enemy Within", IE: Parliament.
> 
> She can't say Brexit isn't reversible anymore seeing it's been confirmed the UK government can revoke A50 unilaterally without the permission from the 27 member states.
> 
> How much longer can this go on for? The Chequers deal was rejected, a few short term concessions here and there, only to be rightly rejected by most Brexiters and Remainers alike.
> 
> It's like when Thatcher proposed the Poll Tax. Many advised her against it but she went ahead with it anyway.


There aren't many ways out, are there! This statement at 3.30 is going to be interesting.


----------



## stockwellcat.

According to Sky News the EU Withdrawal Agreement vote due to take place tomorrow has been postponed. PM making statement in the House of Commons at 3:30pm.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

*Agree with this bloke! *

*Phil*‏ @*lushski69* 2h2 hours ago

52% or 48% I don't care what you are this government has failed 100% of us. #*PoliticsLive*


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs Mays leaked speech 

*Paul de Manlet *‏ @*BoJosCatamite* 1h1 hour ago

Breaking! Theresa May draft speech leaked: "You know what, I've f*cked it. I gave it a pop but it's literally impossible and I'm surrounded by w*nkers. I wanted to remain anyway. **** you all. I quit. Sort it out yourselves."


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's gone from Strong and Stable to Postpone and Panic


----------



## stockwellcat.

Perhaps this is what Mrs May will say and do at 3:30pm.

"I done my best. I negotiated for the UK national interest with the EU. Got a deal no one likes so today I give up as a remain supporter and give in to the leave supporters. As of this minute the UK has quit the EU. I know I should have done this 18 months ago instead of negotiating the un-negitiable and wasting UK tax payers money knowing I would get a deal no one likes. Enjoy. I am going to now quit as PM and will let someone else clean up this mess I have created and go on a long walking holiday with Philip to Switzerland. Enjoy being a free independent country which the 52% voted for on the 23rd June 2016."
She sticks a v up as she leaves the dispatch box and walks out of the House of Commons leaving in an unmarked car outside of the House of Commons rear entrance.


----------



## Jesthar

If I were her I'd be sorely tempted to go with something along the lines of "As no-one is happy with any of the leave options on the table I've just spoken to the EU and revoked Article 50. Thank you for making the last eighteen months the political equivalent of trying to nail jelly to the wall, with a side order of multiple backstabbings and constant undermining. Here's my resignation, so long suckers!"


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

I am sitting back and getting ready for 3:30pm.

Popcorn anyone?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Elles

I’ve been speaking to a few people and it’s probably somewhere on twitter or Facebook or something too and they’re saying that as we voted to leave the Eu that should be the end to that question. If there is a people’s vote it should, therefore, be between the only deal the Eu will accept, ie Theresa May’s deal, or leaving with no deal at all. Remaining shouldn’t even come into it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I've been speaking to a few people and it's probably somewhere on twitter or Facebook or something too and they're saying that as we voted to leave the Eu that should be the end to that question. If there is a people's vote it should, therefore, be between the only deal the Eu will accept, ie Theresa May's deal, or leaving with no deal at all. Remaining shouldn't even come into it.


This was mentioned on Sky News in the last 30 minutes about the question being about accepting May's Deal or No Deal and no other option.


----------



## kimthecat

Not long to go ! Popcorn at the ready .



stockwellcat. said:


> According to Sky News the EU Withdrawal Agreement vote due to take place tomorrow has been postponed. PM making statement in the House of Commons at 3:30pm.


Just seen film clip of Alan Duncan live on the telly being told the vote is being postponed . It looked like he got the giggles , it was a bit of a surprise !


----------



## stockwellcat.

The EU have made their position clear in the last 30 minutes or so reiterating that they will not renegotiate the deal at all.

The Tory Chief whip has hinted May intends to renegotiate the Irish Back Stop.

The EU are not prepared to reopen the negotiations.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> This was mentioned on Sky News in the last 30 minutes about the question being about accepting May's Deal or No Deal and no other option.


 It does make sense..


----------



## kimthecat

Funny U turn film clip https://twitter.com/i/status/1072147978629062656


----------



## kimthecat

Its actually getting scary now.


----------



## Britt

stockwellcat. said:


> This was mentioned on Sky News in the last 30 minutes about the question being about accepting May's Deal or No Deal and no other option.


That b**** should leave


----------



## stockwellcat.

The latest episode of the Brexit Drama is about to unfold on Freeview channel 232 (Parliament Channel)

Popcorn at the ready folks.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The latest episode of the Brexit Drama is about to unfold on Freeview channel 232 (Parliament Channel)
> 
> Popcorn at the ready folks.
> View attachment 380558


Ive eaten mine already :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Ive eaten mine already :Hilarious


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Brexit Roller Coaster.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I've been speaking to a few people and it's probably somewhere on twitter or Facebook or something too and they're saying that as we voted to leave the Eu that should be the end to that question. If there is a people's vote it should, therefore, be between the only deal the Eu will accept, ie Theresa May's deal, or leaving with no deal at all. Remaining shouldn't even come into it.


If nothing had changed since the first referendum I could see the logic in that. But what that would be saying to the electorate in this case is that although we know what is now possible as opposed to promised, and likely as opposed to threatened, we are not giving you the chance to change your mind. And as David Davis said, a democracy which doesn't allow people to change their minds is not a democracy. To my mind, democracy demands that "Call the whole thing off and stick with what we've got" has to be on the ballot.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The latest episode of the Brexit Drama is about to unfold on Freeview channel 232 (Parliament Channel)
> 
> View attachment 380558


Theyre still talking about housing. They mentioned building new houses in an Oxford garden city

TM doesnt look worried at all,


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Theyre still talking about housing. They mentioned building new houses in an Oxford garden city
> 
> TM doesnt look worried at all,


She is on now talking about the NI backstop. The vote tomorrow is delayed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May is going to try and get more assurances from the EU on the NI backstop after realising MP's aren't happy with it across the House of Commons.


----------



## JANICE199

*She has shown time and time again, she is NOT fit to run this country. What a shambles *


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> If nothing had changed since the first referendum I could see the logic in that. But what that would be saying to the electorate in this case is that although we know what is now possible as opposed to promised, and likely as opposed to threatened, we are not giving you the chance to change your mind. And as David Davis said, a democracy which doesn't allow people to change their minds is not a democracy. To my mind, democracy demands that "Call the whole thing off and stick with what we've got" has to be on the ballot.


Well considering that, if I may presume, people expected to have left the Eu by now, or be well on our way to, I don't think anything has changed, other than we're still in, which is giving Remainers the opportunity to try to overturn the original vote.

I don't think the choice should be between May's deal and remaining. This gives little to no choice for people who voted to leave and a rather excellent one for those who chose remain.

What was the point in having the referendum in the first place and why did remain supporters in government agree to it, if they had no idea what they were agreeing to? They certainly didn't like the result and believe any form of leaving the Eu will make us worse off, so if they weren't going to support a brexit and put debate what they'd like to see from a brexit, instead of arguing to remain, they shouldn't have supported the referendum imho. As they did, it would have been more democratic for them to support, or push for a brexit they do like, as TM and JC have to a degree, rather than fighting to overturn it immediately, which they seem to have. 

I don't actually have a problem with remain being an option in another vote personally, but I don't think the only option for leavers should be May's deal, expecting brexiteers to get behind it. We could if we want to, try to establish if people still want to leave and what they think of May's deal, but imho, Labour is muddying the waters there somewhat with their promises of rainbows and unicorns.

I think we can all agree one thing though? The powers that be on all sides have made and are making an unearthly mess of what was for them a totally unexpected result.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> May is making a statement to the Commons @ 3.30. Sounding more and more like a postponement.


Some folks I work with will be furious if it's postponed. They should have got the local government finance settlement last week and that got postponed because of the Brexit vote.....


----------



## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> Some folks I work with will be furious if it's postponed. They should have got the local government finance settlement last week and that got postponed because of the Brexit vote.....


TM has said it has been deferred so she can go back to Brussels and get reassurance over the NI Back stop.

The speaker of the house has asked a minister to step up and ask for a motion for MP's to vote if the debate and vote should be delayed. He was annoyed the press got whispers of this being deferred first before the house could discuss it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Well considering that, if I may presume, people expected to have left the Eu by now, or be well on our way to, I don't think anything has changed, other than we're still in, which is giving Remainers the opportunity to try to overturn the original vote.
> 
> I don't think the choice should be between May's deal and remaining. This gives little to no choice for people who voted to leave and a rather excellent one for those who chose remain.
> 
> What was the point in having the referendum in the first place and why did remain supporters in government agree to it, if they had no idea what they were agreeing to? They certainly didn't like the result and believe any form of leaving the Eu will make us worse off, so if they weren't going to support a brexit and put debate what they'd like to see from a brexit, instead of arguing to remain, they shouldn't have supported the referendum imho. As they did, it would have been more democratic for them to support, or push for a brexit they do like, as TM and JC have to a degree, rather than fighting to overturn it immediately, which they seem to have.
> 
> I don't actually have a problem with remain being an option in another vote personally, but I don't think the only option for leavers should be May's deal, expecting brexiteers to get behind it. We could if we want to, try to establish if people still want to leave and what they think of May's deal, but imho, Labour is muddying the waters there somewhat with their promises of rainbows and unicorns.
> 
> I think we can all agree one thing though? The powers that be on all sides have made and are making an unearthly mess of what was for them a totally unexpected result.


It's certainly a fair view, but I can't agree that nothing has changed. There is no doubt that some people voted leave thinking that the NHS would get more money as a result, and /or that we would get the 'exact same benefits' as when we were members, etc etc. We now know a lot more than we did regarding what Brexit really looks like. That's change.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It's certainly a fair view, but I can't agree that nothing has changed. There is no doubt that some people voted leave thinking that the NHS would get more money as a result, and /or that we would get the 'exact same benefits' as when we were members, etc etc. We now know a lot more than we did regarding what Brexit really looks like. That's change.


Technically nothing has actually changed, people just learned that politicians and the biased with an agenda will manipulate the facts to suit them. We should have learned that years ago.


----------



## Arnie83

"There will be no General Election" x 1,000,000 = "There will be an election"

"The vote is going ahead as planned" x 1,000,000 = "We're postponing the debate"

"There will be no new referendum" x 1,000,000 = ??


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Technically nothing has actually changed, people just learned that politicians and the biased with an agenda will *manipulate the facts* to suit them. We should have learned that years ago.


A nice euphemism for "lie and break the law" !


----------



## KittenKong

Stupid vile woman. Now she believes she can go back to Brussels to get more utilising her magic money tree.

Let's hope they stick to their guns and tell her there's no further negotiation. They should tell her to **** off and say her presence is no longer welcome.

She brought it on herself. What a joke.


----------



## KittenKong

That's our money she's spending.
I received a few begging me to tell my MP to back her deal.

I blocked them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> *That's our money she's spending.*
> I received a few begging me to tell my MP to back her deal.
> 
> I blocked them.
> 
> View attachment 380580


How dare she.
She just will not listen, and she wasting money OUR money


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Let's hope they stick to their guns and tell her there's no further negotiation.


Well they are sticking to their guns and have repeatedly said the deal is not open for renegotiation since lunch time today. She isn't going to Brussels to renegotiate though she is going to get reassurance/assurance about the Northern Irish Back Stop nothing else.


> *They should tell her to **** off and say her presence is no longer welcome.*


Well that would be a quick way of saying no deal by the EU to the UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that would be a quick way of saying no deal by the EU.


At least Leave and Remain are united in hating this deal.

May achieved uniting the country
Against her.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I like that remake.... No Prime Minister is better than a bad Prime Minister


----------



## Jonescat

Procedurally what happens next today? Do they just all ask questions and then go home or is there a point to this? At the moment it looks quite like a damp squib.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they are sticking to their guns and have repeatedly said the deal is not open for renegotiation since lunch time today. She isn't going to Brussels to renegotiate though she is going to get reassurance/assurance about the Northern Irish Back Stop nothing else.
> Well that would be a quick way of saying no deal by the EU to the UK.


But isn't that a form of negotiation? If she seriously wanted just reassurance wouldn't a telephone call or Skype surffice, rather than dig into her magic money tree she once denied having? It must cost a fortune, not only 1st class travel but security, you name it.

As with the £100K of public funds spent on Facebook advertising to plead people to contact their MP to support her plan this is a serious abuse of public funds. I'd expect this sort of thing from Putin and similar, not a UK PM in what's supposed to be a democracy. I thought political parties had to raise their own funds for this sort of thing, as in elections.

My comments were for her personally. They should tell her to **** off if she attempts further concessions. She's been told the deal is final. She knows it's not popular amongst the majority of UK citizens regardless of how they voted in 2016.

Just today the EU ruled the UK could unilaterally withdraw A50 without needing permission from the other 27 member states. That gives another option to no deal or her deal whatever the stupid seriously deluded woman claims.

Last year she preached no early GE then look what happened. Only yesterday she insisted on the vote going through. She retracted that.

What does that say to people, not only in the UK but also to the outside world?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Andrea Leadsom has just confirmed that the House of Commons will still rise for the Christmas recess and sit again on the 7th January 2019.

So they won't be sacrificing their Christmas break as some wanted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> But isn't that a form of negotiation? If she seriously wanted just reassurance wouldn't a telephone call or Skype surffice, rather than dig into her magic money tree she once denied having? It must cost a fortune, not only 1st class travel but security, you name it.
> 
> As with the £100K of public funds spent on Facebook advertising to plead people to contact their MP to support her plan this is a serious abuse of public funds. I'd expect this sort of thing from Putin and similar, not a UK PM in what's supposed to be a democracy. I thought political parties had to raise their own funds for this sort of thing, as in elections.
> 
> My comments were for her personally. They should tell her to **** off if she attempts further concessions. She's been told the deal is final. She knows it's not popular amongst the majority of UK citizens regardless of how they voted in 2016.
> 
> Just today the EU ruled the UK could unilaterally withdraw A50 without needing permission from the other 27 member states. That gives another option to no deal or her deal whatever the stupid seriously deluded woman claims.
> 
> Last year she preached no early GE then look what happened. Only yesterday she insisted on the vote going through. She retracted that.
> 
> What does that say to people, not only in the UK but also to the outside world?


Theresa May said there will be no second referendum and the Government will not withdraw article 50 at all regardless of what was ruled today in the ECJ.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May said there will be no second referendum and the Government will not withdraw article 50 at all regardless of what was ruled today in the ECJ.


Hmmm. You believe it given how many times she's changed her mind? 
.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May said there will be no second referendum and the Government will not withdraw article 50 at all regardless of what was ruled today in the ECJ.


Theresa May also said they'd be no early GE and the parliamentary vote would be held tomorrow.....

While I believe she won't consider a PV with a remain option I bet she would if her job depended on it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong and @Elles we will see.

I cannot and do not wish to read TM's mind and do not wish to know what is going through her mind.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Andrea Leadsom has just confirmed that the House of Commons will still rise for the Christmas recess and sit again on the 7th January 2019.
> 
> So they won't be sacrificing their Christmas break as some wanted.


Who wanted that?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Who wanted that?


You mentioned the other day that they should give up their Christmas break and went on one.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yes.
> 
> *Parliament can be recalled if something important comes up*, such as preventing No Deal, approving the PM's plan to ask the EU if we can stay in the EEA a la Norway. That sort of thing.


Here you go @Arnie83 and no they intend on having their Christmas break.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You mentioned the other day that they should give up their Christmas break and went on one.


*


arnie83 said:



Parliament can be recalled if something important comes up

Click to expand...

*


stockwellcat. said:


> Here you go @Arnie83 and no they intend on having their Christmas break.


I said Parliament _can_ be recalled. It's a simple statement of fact. I didn't say that they _should_ give up their break.

And you really think that comment amounts to "went on one"?

I think you probably need to go on ignore again for a while.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I said Parliament _can_ be recalled. It's a simple statement of fact. I didn't say that they _should_ give up their break.
> 
> And you really think that comment amounts to "went on one"?
> 
> I think you probably need to go on ignore again for a while.


So you ask me a question. Don't let me respond and stick me on ignore. That's ok. I have stuck you on ignore. Let's be clear you know what I meant because you know you laid into me after your view on what was classed in your eyes as something important.

There you go. On ignore you go. Anyone else want to go on my ignore list?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Like the MP's and Ministers in Parliament I am retiring for Christmas as I want to have a Christmas this year.









Try not to get stressed out to much about Brexit folks.









I'll be back after Christmas.


----------



## Jonescat

I am glad that they are having a Christmas break - they do seem fixated on it. Some of us will be on call or working but hey, we aren't running the country (I know, neither are they!)

So if I understand today correctly:
May understood she couldn't get it through and the EU realised that if they didn't help her then it would be no deal. So we are now looking for wriggle room, reassurances and facilitating ratification Corbyn can't get them out without the DUP who aren't prepared to play with him, and therefore has to wait until the next round, when perhaps the backstop will still be unacceptable and they will be prepared to shift ground.

In the meantime, businesses reorder themselves revisit their no-deal plans because it just became a bit more likely, many non-political people suffer an awful lot of needless stress and Mrs M owes the lovely Andrea Leadsom a pint for the sterling work she is putting in defending the indefensible (tomorrow never means tomorrow in the HoC etc)

If only there were an alternative leader available..


----------



## Arnie83

Jonescat said:


> I am glad that they are having a Christmas break - they do seem fixated on it. Some of us will be on call or working but hey, we aren't running the country (I know, neither are they!)
> 
> So if I understand today correctly:
> May understood she couldn't get it through and the EU realised that if they didn't help her then it would be no deal. So we are now looking for wriggle room, reassurances and facilitating ratification Corbyn can't get them out without the DUP who aren't prepared to play with him, and therefore has to wait until the next round, when perhaps the backstop will still be unacceptable and they will be prepared to shift ground.
> 
> In the meantime, businesses reorder themselves revisit their no-deal plans because it just became a bit more likely, many non-political people suffer an awful lot of needless stress and Mrs M owes the lovely Andrea Leadsom a pint for the sterling work she is putting in defending the indefensible (tomorrow never means tomorrow in the HoC etc)
> 
> If only there were an alternative leader available..
> 
> View attachment 380634


And the pound drops by nearly 2 cents, making imports 1.5% more expensive, in a forerunner of what happens if and when we do leave.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> And the pound drops by nearly 2 cents, making imports 1.5% more expensive, in a forerunner of what happens if and when we do leave.


I'm not sure that's a fair statement when the experts are saying that it's due to the prolonged uncertainty now May has delayed the vote on her deal.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I'm not sure that's a fair statement when the experts are saying that it's due to the prolonged uncertainty now May has delayed the vote on her deal.


Absolutely As has been said from the start, uncertainty always causes the pound to drop .


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I'm not sure that's a fair statement when the experts are saying that it's due to the prolonged uncertainty now May has delayed the vote on her deal.





kimthecat said:


> Absolutely As has been said from the start, uncertainty always causes the pound to drop .


That is very true -no argument - but watch the markets; every time we edge towards No Deal the pound drops. Every time we edge away from it, the pound rises. I guess the uncertainty of No Deal is a significant factor, but the fact of it plays a big part too. Cost of business will rise in the case of May's deal, but will do so a lot more in the case of No Deal.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Do you not think this could be a way to prevent patients from stockpiling medicines in the face of all the "You're all going to die" hyperbole? Everyone knows the threat of a shortage of anything can _create_ that shortage.


No, I don't even understand your logic, Mille. You cant seriously be saying Ministers rationing medicines because there will be shortages is a positive? Hancock himself even refused to rule out deaths from medicine shortages. Its not hyperbole. Of course people who realise our supply chain will be cut off are likely to stockpile - this will increase shortages. Imagine a government prepared to allow this to happen to their own citizens??!!


Elles said:


> George Monbiot asked Spiked how much money they had received from Koch and they replied and told him, with links showing where the funding went. They have a copy of the communication on their webpage.
> 
> I'm sure plenty of US billionaires put money into causes they agree with, both in and out of the U.K. and some of them probably aren't nice people, or funding projects we'd all agree with. $300k over 3 years is pocket change to US billionaires.
> 
> I hadn't heard of Spiked until it was brought up in this article, but it appears it's a niche online magazine edited by a journalist who blogged for the Guardian and other news resources and has a column in The Big Issue, and the money was actually given to Spiked US and spent on projects in the US. So it's hard to get wound up about it. Sorry Noushka.


 Elles you yourself have fallen for propaganda funded by the same dark money. The irony:Hilarious The same dark money which also championed Tommy Robinson 


Magyarmum said:


> OMG Elles, I hope you're wearing your tin hat and full body armour because very shortly you're going to be s***t on from great heights!
> 
> How could you not possibly know that the Koch brothers are the greatest threat to democracy since Stalin, the Illuminati, Rasputin, the Knights Templar and a few others I can't think of, all rolled up into one!
> 
> This is the reply I got which will put you right and make you change your ways ...... but be afraid ...... very very afraid of what is about to happen to you!!
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...talk-about-it.497876/page-157#post-1065314314


The Kochs ARE one of the greatest threats to our living planet - they practically 'own' perhaps the most dangerous political party in history - the Republican Party. They spend billions of $$ promoting climate denial & white nationalism. The dark web is FAR more dangerous than Stalin & co. Stalin did not have a planetary scale affect which could have wiped out billions of people and the extinction of much of Earths lifeforms. The Kochs & their bedfellows do, which is why brexit is so dangerous & why the green movement will fight it tooth & nail to the bitter end!



Elles said:


> @Magyarmum I'm not putting a link to the page with the communication and videos, because I wouldn't want some of the people on it finding petforums and heading here lol. But in this particular instance it's a storm in an egg cup imho.
> 
> Oh I see. Well in this instance it's pocket change and not proof of any secretive, underhand dealings involving billions of dollars. However, I didn't look it up to discredit the post, so I was quite disappointed to see that in this case it's verging on fake news and sensationalism. I fully expect billionaires to fund projects they like, sometimes it's projects I also like and sometimes it isn't. If they have our politicians in their back pockets and use that illegally to cause us harm for the fun of it, it's newsworthy, but unfortunately (or should I say fortunately) that wasn't the case here.


You really don't seem to be able to grasp the significance of Monbiots findings - and I guess thats because you don't want to. So many parallels between Trump supporters and brexit supporters. They too dismiss the Kochs/ Mercers/Bannon/ Russia interference in their democracy as 'fake news'.



MilleD said:


> I wouldn't go anywhere near something like this, purely because of the people that turn up just to cause trouble, regardless of what the 'protest' is about.


I would have loved to have been able to join the anti fascist protest.



Elles said:


> Do you think there would have been more pro brexit marchers if it was a pro brexit demonstration and had nothing to do with people like Tommy Robinson? Actually it's quite likely if brexiteers were marching against him.


Pro brexit turn outs are generally poor.



stockwellcat. said:


> Was this Andrew Clement Serkis (he played Gollum in the Lord of the Rings)?


It was.



stockwellcat. said:


> Don't just put up a link to Caroline Lucas. Watch the entire program here and make up your own mind.


Will you please stop telling me what to post! I watched the entire program live. Caroline Lucas was OUTSTANDING.:Cigar


Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 18th October:


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> No, I don't even understand your logic, Mille. You cant seriously be saying Ministers rationing medicines because there will be shortages is a positive? Hancock himself even refused to rule out deaths from medicine shortages. Its not hyperbole. Of course people who realise our supply chain will be cut off are likely to stockpile - this will increase shortages. Imagine a government prepared to allow this to happen to their own citizens??!!


Ok. I'm done.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Ok. I'm done.


Why? Was my response rude? I was genuinely puzzled by your post.


----------



## noushka05

David Lammy to Farage >>>

*Brexit is a national humiliation that has turned our country into a laughing stock. 
You did this. 
Own it.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072213464649752576


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Why? Was my response rude? I was genuinely puzzled by your post.


Ok, one last post.

Exactly where did I say anything about it being a positive thing? You put words in people's mouths that aren't remotely there. I do, however, think it's properly selfish for anyone to stockpile and _create_ a shortage.

I'm asthmatic. Salbutamol keeps me alive, but I couldn't conscience keeping more than I need and possibly put other people at risk. That's selfish.

Now I'm done.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Please.... this thread is getting silly over something we really can't do anything about.


----------



## KittenKong

From Bristol for Europe:

"Theresa May decided to pull the parliamentary vote on her Brexit withdrawal agreement because she knew she would lose. She has been humiliated by her own MPs. It is staggering that this defeat only became obvious to her after it had been clear to everyone else for weeks. In the end, she chose to run rather than stand and fight for what she had agreed with European leaders. Mrs May is not saving her leadership, she is devaluing it to the point of worthlessness. The prime minister has no one to blame but herself for this mess. In the last two years the government has devoted itself to leaving the European Union in a manner consistent with Mrs May’s obsessions – primarily controlling immigration. Her resulting withdrawal agreement has been rubbished by her own unruly troops. They will not be easily instructed to march in a different direction.

The prime minister is trying to buy herself time by getting Brussels to accept some tweaks in her Brexit deal over the Northern Ireland backstop as a means of persuading some doubters to vote for it. These will be cosmetic, as EU leaders say there can be no further renegotiation of the terms of the UK’s departure.

The threats to Mrs May are multiplying. In parliament, the prime minister foreshadowed a constitutional trial of strength in a furious exchange with the Commons speaker, John Bercow. Mr Bercow rightly called for MPs to be allowed to vote on postponing the Brexit debate. In rejecting this, the prime minister continues to treat parliament with contempt."


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I'm not sure that's a fair statement when the experts are saying that it's due to the prolonged uncertainty now May has delayed the vote on her deal.


And they can't blame Remainers for that seeing both camps are virtually united against her plan!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Ok, one last post.
> 
> Exactly where did I say anything about it being a positive thing? You put words in people's mouths that aren't remotely there. I do, however, think it's properly selfish for anyone to stockpile and _create_ a shortage.
> 
> I'm asthmatic. Salbutamol keeps me alive, but I couldn't conscience keeping more than I need and possibly put other people at risk. That's selfish.
> 
> Now I'm done.


_
Do you not think this could be a way to prevent patients from stockpiling medicines in the face of all the "You're all going to die" hyperbole? Everyone knows the threat of a shortage of anything can create that shortag_e.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood this post then, but it does seem to me that you are playing down the seriousness of a situation of our own self doing. People are stockpiling already because they are frightened for the future. This should not be happening, I'm sure no one voted for this. Did you?

*NHS Against Brexit*‏ @NHSvBrexit Dec 7
If we have a chaotic exit from the EU, pharmacists may be ordered by Ministers to prescribe a "therapeutic equivalent" to patients' medicines if there are shortages.

Is this what you voted for?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ab72c6f0-f9af-11e8-83e5-4dc2d31f2a89


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I've been speaking to a few people and it's probably somewhere on twitter or Facebook or something too and they're saying that as we voted to leave the Eu that should be the end to that question. If there is a people's vote it should, therefore, be between the only deal the Eu will accept, ie Theresa May's deal, or leaving with no deal at all. Remaining shouldn't even come into it.


I would sympathise with that if the leave vote was unanimous, it wasn't. Roughly a million more people voted for leave rather than remain. Hardly a huge amount given the population.

A May or no deal ignores 48% of the population, not forgetting they're parts of the UK and Gibraltar who decisively voted for remain in 2016. That's forcing them to choose between options they didn't vote for in the first place.

Would be akin to holding a General Election with only Theresa May and Boris Johnson as candidates. That automatically cancels out non Tory voters as this cancels out remain voters.

I've said I'd rather see No deal than May's deal and have given my reasons why. Would I vote for that in such a restricted referendum? Good heavens no!

I believe should a PV be called the option to remain should be included as an option. No excuse not to now it's been confirmed the UK could reverse Article 50 without needing the consent of the other 27 member states.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey

The thing I find really telling is the Labour Party (and I’m a supporter!) refusing to step up. If they won’t grasp the nettle now, Corbyn needs to go.....


----------



## noushka05

Channel 4 News - Jon Snow to justice minister Rory Stewart - "Hand on heart is there anything in this that is better than what we already had?" 
Minister - [Pause] "The one thing that is better is that it respects the result of the referendum."

That's it folks

.......................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

Blaise in Surrey said:


> The thing I find really telling is the Labour Party (and I'm a supporter!) refusing to step up. If they won't grasp the nettle now, Corbyn needs to go.....


 Owen Jones and I've seen a few others, Paul Mason might have been one of them, saying now is not the time for a vote of no confidence.

*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 14h14 hours ago
Owen Jones Retweeted Chuka Umunna

This is completely and utterly strategically inept. A vote of confidence now would unite the Tories when they are in chaos, and the government would win it. It needs to be called when May is again humiliated in her failed attempts to renegotiate the deal.

...


----------



## KittenKong

Of course he still would had the vote not gone his way the first time round!
:Hilarious

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/bre...line-lucas-jacob-rees-mogg-second-referendum/


----------



## KittenKong

Interesting comments over on the other Brexit forum from a moderate leaver. He voted Leave but said priority whether the UK should leave or not was well down in his list of priorities. He's as dismayed as many of us are and has frequent polite clashes with the forum's own UKIP supporting Brextremist, reminding him he voted Leave himself.

That raises an interesting point.

Certainly for many of us leaving the EU is a big deal, especially for citizens from other EU countries with an uncertain future, jobs, FOM, you name it.

But, apart from the ultra rich who'll avoid the proposed EU tax rules what real benefits are they for the average person in the street? In 2½ years not one has come up with a single advantage of leaving. Some argue the pain and austerity will be worth it as, "they" survived WWII etc.

And, were many really bothered before the referendum? Clearly not seeing Michael Foot's Labour party proposed an EEC referendum, or was it unilateral withdrawal from the EEC, I don't recall had they won in 1983?

Now, this government are neglecting everything else it seems, a distraction from other important issues just for a pathetic PM to get backing for her deal. As with the Falklands war it's nothing more than a major distraction from other issues affecting our day to day lives.

I've criticised Corbyn frequently, I stand by that, but perhaps he's right to emphasise on other issues such as hardship and poverty rather that Brexit or just Brexit in his PM Question time debates.


----------



## rona

Blaise in Surrey said:


> The thing I find really telling is the Labour Party (and I'm a supporter!) refusing to step up. If they won't grasp the nettle now, Corbyn needs to go.....


He wouldn't want the poison chalice now would he? Career politician who would be out of a job pretty damn quick. He's good at moaning but not so good at coming up with answers


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> He wouldn't want the poison chalice now would he? Career politician who would be out of a job pretty damn quick. * He's good at moaning but not so good at coming up with answers*


He's not the only one, tell me one of either party that does.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Of course he still would had the vote not gone his way the first time round!
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/bre...line-lucas-jacob-rees-mogg-second-referendum/
> 
> View attachment 380722


Ouch. He was talking about a completely different scenario back in 2011 which would have applied if people voted leave too. No one today is trying to negotiate a better deal inside of the Eu. What we see is what we get.

Apples and oranges and I thought disingenuous of Caroline to have it written on a piece of paper ready to bring it up. I expect better from her.  If we do have a second vote, comparable to what Rees-Mogg suggested, would be a second vote on what we're being offered today, eg deal, or no deal, not remain with no say, or remain with a say, which is the choice she wants us given. (May's deal, or stay in). Remain today aren't offering us a new deal inside the Eu.

I'm still smarting a bit from the knowledge that despite knowing what a mess it would be if we voted leave, she (and plenty of others, but particularly she, being a bit of a heroine to me) voted in favour of the referendum under some misguided support of democracy. They should have voted against it at the time and asked for it to be delayed until they had some kind of idea of what brexit would mean to them, rather than 'OMG they voted leave, help! Noooo!' Which is what we seem to have.

I voted remain, because I knew it would be a mess given that the government didn't want to leave and Cameron couldn't be trusted with it. Those knowing this already, should have voted against the referendum, until we knew more what could be done with it and had people in charge who could be trusted to see it through, if we did vote leave. They were told there would be no turning back at the time. Voting for it because you think it looks bad if you don't and you think people will vote to stay in, wasn't good enough imho.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> That is very true -no argument - but watch the markets; every time we edge towards No Deal the pound drops. Every time we edge away from it, the pound rises. I guess the uncertainty of No Deal is a significant factor, but the fact of it plays a big part too. Cost of business will rise in the case of May's deal, but will do so a lot more in the case of No Deal.


OK
I bet it would drop if there was an election and Corbyn's Labour government won.


----------



## kimthecat

Blaise in Surrey said:


> The thing I find really telling is the Labour Party (and I'm a supporter!) refusing to step up. If they won't grasp the nettle now, Corbyn needs to go.....


He should never have been elected in the first place.


----------



## KittenKong

I can just imagine her trying this. Cancelling the 2022 General Election vowing to stay on, "In the national interest"










http://newsthump.com/2018/12/11/the...-election-because-she-doesnt-think-shell-win/


----------



## kimthecat

We have threads about Brexit running since the referendum.
Its been contradictory because its been said that we shouldn't have trusted the general public to vote on this matter and we should let the MPs decide and on the other hand we are saying we cant trust the MPs.
That 48% dont want to leave and we should have another referendum , if the result had been the other way round or is the other way round in a future referendum I expect the Leavers would demand another referendum and the Remainers would say No .

The Genie is out of the bottle and even if we remain in the EU , this isn't going to go away , the rifts won't heal that easily.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> OK
> I bet it would drop if there was an election and Corbyn's Labour government won.


Like a rock in a vacuum.


----------



## KittenKong

My post from the other Brexit forum I've screen-shotted to avoid having to type it out again...


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Like a rock in a vacuum.


:Hilarious Ive not heard that expression before.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Ive not heard that expression before.


I just made it up. ompus

(It may not stand up to the scrutiny of physicists!)


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I just made it up. ompus
> 
> (It may not stand up to the scrutiny of physicists!)


oh you! :Hilarious I did wonder about that.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I just made it up. ompus
> 
> (It may not stand up to the scrutiny of physicists!)


_*waves Physics A level certificate*_

Sounds fine to me! Although everything in a vacuum falls at the same rate given the same force acting on it - no air resistance  So you could get REALLY creative and it would still make sense...


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> _*waves Physics A level certificate*_
> 
> Sounds fine to me! Although everything in a vacuum falls at the same rate given the same force acting on it - no air resistance  So you could get REALLY creative and it would still make sense...


I know it makes me sound really sad, but I actually considered that when I wrote it! I remember seeing the pictures of Mr Astronaut (not his real name) dropping the feather and the hammer (?) on the moon and proving Einstein right when they hit the surface together.

These jokes are very carefully crafted, you know! :Smug

Probably time I got back to Brexit !!


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I know it makes me sound really sad, but I actually considered that when I wrote it! I remember seeing the pictures of Mr Astronaut (not his real name) dropping the feather and the hammer (?) on the moon and proving Einstein right when they hit the surface together.
> 
> These jokes are very carefully crafted, you know! :Smug
> 
> Probably time I got back to Brexit !!


Twas a finely crafted joke indeed! Commander David Scott, and yes - it was a hammer 

I would have considered it too, my Autie brain rebels against factually inaccurate jokes...  What's say we find a nice quiet corner and be sad and geeky together?


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious
https://metro.co.uk/2018/12/11/ther...31782/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


----------



## KittenKong

Hilarious but true.
From "Brexit Balls"

A good Brexit thread, from Hugo Rifkind:

Sorry.

The thing is, the best way to understand Theresa May’s predicament is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain had voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese.

Now, Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do.

However, in order to become PM, she had to pretend that she thought building a submarine out of cheese was fine and could totally work.

"Cheese means cheese," she told us all, madly.

Then she actually built one.

It’s shit. Of course it is. For God’s sake, are you stupid? It’s a submarine built out of cheese.

So now, having built a shi* cheese submarine, she has to put up with both Labour and Tory Brexiters insisting that a less shi* cheese submarine could have been built.

They’re all lying, and they know it. So does everybody else. We've covered this already, I know, but it’s cheese and it’s a submarine. 

How good could it possibly be?

Only she can’t call them out on this. Because she has spent the past two years also lying, by pretending she really could build a decent submarine out of cheese.

So that’s where we are.

On balance, I this analogy works fine, perhaps except for the submarine and cheese parts, which need a little work.

Thread ends.


----------



## Snoringbear

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 380769
> View attachment 380770
> View attachment 380771
> View attachment 380772
> 
> :Hilarious
> https://metro.co.uk/2018/12/11/ther...31782/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


She can't exit a car and can't exit the EU.


----------



## Snoringbear

Brexit has had its nail in the coffin today. Her deal will be voted down however long she waits. HOC now has the ability to vote no deal Down now, which will happen. That just leaves the Remain option. Brexiters have had their chance and have produced nothing viable since the two years since the referendum. You would have thought after forty odd years of whining about the EU they would have at least had a cohesive plan to leave but they don’t. All I’ve seen is people running away or quitting. 

Farage an architect of Brexit finally found some popularity but refused to stand for election where he’d have a say. Davis quit after failing at negotiations, followed even faster by Raab quitting after failure. The list goes on. Brexit is undeliverable based on a vote for impossible fantasies. Only option now is remain. Have a People’s vote to ratify it.


----------



## Snoringbear

Fortunately, as leavers are always banging on about the will of the people, they’ll be delighted when a second referendum returns a vote to remain.


----------



## Snoringbear

A nice summary


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 380762


Pride goes before a fall..

Seven deadly sins: Pride is an excessive view of one's self without regard for others.

Hmmmm...


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> Brexit has had its nail in the coffin today. Her deal will be voted down however long she waits. HOC now has the ability to vote no deal Down now, which will happen. That just leaves the Remain option. Brexiters have had their chance and have produced nothing viable since the two years since the referendum. You would have thought after forty odd years of whining about the EU they would have at least had a cohesive plan to leave but they don't. All I've seen is people running away or quitting.
> 
> Farage an architect of Brexit finally found some popularity but refused to stand for election where he'd have a say. Davis quit after failing at negotiations, followed even faster by Raab quitting after failure. The list goes on. Brexit is undeliverable based on a vote for impossible fantasies. Only option now is remain. Have a People's vote to ratify it.


Don't get me wrong - I support a People's Vote, and I'd prefer to see us Remain - but I think maybe you've been a little over-confident of the route forwards there! For one I'm not at all sure that a People's Vote would deliver the result we would both like to see. And there are some hoops to go through before we get that far.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m pretty confident remain will win a vote now. Polls have shown that change.


----------



## Snoringbear

Leavers had their chance and failed, time for the adults to take over.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> Leavers had their chance and failed, time for the adults to take over.


And who are these adults?


----------



## Snoringbear

Anyone who wasn’t involved with the childish fantasies of leave.


----------



## Snoringbear

The leave children already had a go. Either ran away or stomped their feet from the sidelines in a tantrum. Didn’t manage to produce anything viable so best to let the adults take over.


----------



## Jonescat

Ah if only there were some adults available


----------



## KittenKong

From one of her cheerleaders.









From Facebook. Deranged psychopath more like.


----------



## Jesthar

Have to admit this one gave me a giggle!


----------



## kimthecat

Jonescat said:


> Ah if only there were some adults available


:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Anyone who wasn't involved with the childish fantasies of leave.


Can you be a bit more specific , perhaps some names?


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> I'm pretty confident remain will win a vote now. Polls have shown that change.


oh yeah , Polls ! you just gotta love'em. They certainly were accurate the first time , not ! 

You could well be right but we wont know until there is another one !


----------



## noushka05

Snoringbear said:


> The leave children already had a go. Either ran away or stomped their feet from the sidelines in a tantrum. Didn't manage to produce anything viable so best to let the adults take over.


In the words of Alan Rusbridger*:*

_Those who wanted Brexit have had 899 days to show how it could happen. Now they can't, a small show of humility would be welcome.
And maybe a willingness to consider returning to the relative unity we had as a country before 23/6/2016_

.
.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> oh yeah , Polls ! you just gotta love'em. They certainly were accurate the first time , not !
> 
> You could well be right but we wont know until there is another one !


Actually the polls were pretty accurate. But the pollsters didn't know about the illegal interference by the Leave campaign. The switch to the vote leave majority coincides with the massive surge of targeted ads on facebook by Cambridge Analytica. Same happened with the Trump/Clinton campaign.

Brexit was the 'petri dish' for the Trump campaign 

*The great British Brexit robbery: how our democracy was hijacked*
A shadowy global operation involving big data, billionaire friends of Trump and the disparate forces of the Leave campaign influenced the result of the EU referendum. As Britain heads to the polls again, is our electoral process still fit for purpose?

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...eat-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy


----------



## stockwellcat.

I break off my christmas break from this thread to say wow. It looks like the Conservative party have turned against Theresa May and maybe on the verge of vote of no confidence in her. Several sources are saying all 48 letters of no confidence have been received. This means a Brexiter might be voted in and sort out this mess this Remain PM has made.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I break off my christmas break from this thread to say wow. It looks like the Conservative party have turned against Theresa May and maybe on the verge of vote of no confidence in her. Several sources are saying all 48 letters of no confidence have been received. This means a Brexiter might be voted in and sort out this mess this Remain PM has made.


If a 'brexiter MP gets in, they won't want a 'deal' - they will drive our country straight over the cliff. They want the country to fall into chaos. That is the disaster capitalists dream! More fool anyone who supports them, they deserve all they get from the fall out which WILL affect all but the wealthiest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Leavers had their chance and failed, time for the adults to take over.


We have not had our chance. Let's be clear a remainer PM is in power. Theresa May voted remain. This mess has been made by a remainer PM not a leaver or Brexiter.

Corbyn is worse than May.

But it looks like a Brexiter might be getting a chance at last as the Conservatives have now handed in 48 letters of no confidence in against remainer May. No general election needed either if we do get a new conservative PM as it is down to the new conservative PM if that person calls one not Parliament under the Parliament act 2011.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If a 'brexiter MP gets in, they won't want a 'deal' - they will drive our country straight over the cliff. They want the country to fall into chaos. That is the disaster capitalists dream! More fool anyone who supports them, they deserve all they get from the fall out which WILL affect all but the wealthiest.


You don't know that for certain you are again spouting remainer negativity.
Remainer May is threatening to take the country into chaos.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn had his chance yesterday to call a vote of no confidence against the Government and failed to do so, so the conservatives done it themselves by handing in the remainder of the 48 letters needed.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't know that for certain you are again spouting remainer negativity.
> Remainer May is threatening to take the country into chaos.


I know for absolute certain the ideology of the brextremist head bangers. Its blatently obvious to anyone with their eyes open. Just check out the voting histories of them ALL  We are screwed if we crash out . And May is no remainer - shes a typical dishonest, power hungry selfservative.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I know for absolute certain the ideology of the brextremist head bangers. Its blatently obvious to anyone with their eyes open. Just check out the voting histories of them ALL  We are screwed if we crash out . And May is no remainer - shes a typical dishonest, power hungry selfservative.


Let's remember the UK voted to leave the EU.
Remainer May negotiated a deal that would keep the UK remaining in the EU. Not acceptable.

Not interested @noushka05. The UK voted leave and this result needs respecting and delivering. Remainer May had her chance now move over for a Brexiter like Mogg, Davis, Leadsom, Gove, Raab or Johnson and let's get out of the EU.

Weak and wobbly, unstable Remainer May needs to go and the Conservatives have realised this.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> *I break off my christmas break from this thread to say wow*.





stockwellcat. said:


> You don't know that for certain





stockwellcat. said:


> You don't know that for certain you are again spouting remainer negativity.





stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn had his chance yesterday





stockwellcat. said:


> Let's remember the UK voted to leave the EU.


I really think you need detox. Is there a group called BA........Brexit Anonymous


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I really think you need detox. Is there a group called BA........Brexit Anonymous


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sir Graham Brady has just confirmed the number of letters to call a no confidence vote has been received and exceeded. Bye, bye May.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Leadership Ballot tonight between 6pm and 8pm.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Sir Graham Brady has just confirmed the number of letters to call a no confidence vote has been received and exceeded. Bye, bye May.


Now the fun starts


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Now the fun starts


This is only a ballot within the Conservative Party not Parliament. Corbyn could have triggered a vote of no confidence against the Government yesterday ousting the Conservatives from power but he didn't. So the Conservative Party has triggered a leadership challenge. The conservatives remain in power. If remainer May wins she stays in power for another year and cannot be challenged if this happens.


----------



## rona

Beware what you wish for...................


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Remember If remainer May wins tonight in the Leadership Ballot she stays in power for another year and cannot be challenged if this happens.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

When I said _fun_ it was though gritted teeth, I just dread what happens next.

PM question time today is going to be interesting.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Remember If remainer May wins tonight in the Leadership Ballot she stays in power for another year and cannot be challenged if this happens*.*


So she should, she got us in this mess, she should get us out of it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> When I said _fun_ it was though gritted teeth, I just dread what happens next.
> 
> PM question time today is going to be interesting.


Don't know if PMQ's has been cancelled or not inlight of this development as TM is going in front of the 1922 Committee.

Cabinet Ministers are coming forward saying they will back TM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remainer May needs 158 votes to win tonight so anything less than this means there will be a leadership contest in the Conservative Party.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cabinet ministers have to be loyal to Remainer May and back her tonight. So Gove and Leadsom won't be able to stand in a leadership contest against Remainer May.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> *Don't know if PMQ's has been cancelled* or not inlight of this development as TM is going in front of the 1922 Committee.
> 
> Cabinet Ministers are coming forward saying they will back TM.


They just said on the News, PM Question time will still go a head.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> They just said on the News, PM Question time will still go a head.


Well that will be interesting at midday.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's remember the UK voted to leave the EU.
> Remainer May negotiated a deal that would keep the UK remaining in the EU. Not acceptable.
> 
> Not interested @noushka05. The UK voted leave and this result needs respecting and delivering. Remainer May had her chance now move over for a Brexiter like Mogg, Davis, Leadsom, Gove, Raab or Johnson and let's get out of the EU.
> 
> Weak and wobbly, unstable Remainer May needs to go and the Conservatives have relaised this.


Crashing out without a deal was never on the table - and you know it. But if we do, you wont be able to deny the terrible consequences then - so at least have the decency to own it & not try to scapegoat the EU or remoaners or labour. YOU wanted us to go over the cliff - you can own it.

Raab & Davis our hapless 'negotiators' who you think could do a good job running the actual country :Hilarious Gove, Yes, Leadsom, Johnson, Mogg, Raab, Gove, Davis - fine MPs who have always worked at putting the best interests of the people first. Who have done so much to protect our environment & tackle climate change Who truly believe in our NHS & welfare state & public services!

They are the worst of the worst SWC, its wilful blindness in the extreme to be incapable of seeing that. God help this country if we crash out leaving either one of these extremists in charge, I'm glad I'll have played no part it its demise.

.

.


----------



## Arnie83

God knows I disagree with Mrs May, but this is surely not the time for a leadership election.

The ERG statement ...

'Theresa May's plan would bring down the govt if carried forward. But our Party will rightly not tolerate it. *Conservatives must now answer whether they wish to draw ever closer to an election under Mrs May's leadership.* In the national interest, she must go.'

... practically says this is about the Tories much more than the 'national interest'. Just like the whole Brexit farrago has been.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Crashing out without a deal was never on the table - and you know it. But if we do, you wont be able to deny the terrible consequences then - so at least have the decency to own it & not try to scapegoat the EU or remoaners or labour. YOU wanted us to go over the cliff - you can own it.
> 
> Raab & Davis our hapless 'negotiators' who you think could do a good job running the actual country :Hilarious Gove, Yes, Leadsom, Johnson, Mogg, Raab, Gove, Davis - fine MPs who have always worked at putting the best interests of the people first. Who have done so much to protect our environment & tackle climate change Who truly believe in our NHS & welfare state & public services!
> 
> They are the worst of the worst SWC, its wilful blindness in the extreme to be incapable of seeing that. God help this country if we crash out leaving either one of these extremists in charge, I'm glad I'll have played no part it its demise.
> 
> .
> 
> .


Thank you for your doom and gloom post. Is your crystal ball working over time by any chance?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Crashing out without a deal was never on the table - and you know it. But if we do, you wont be able to deny the terrible consequences then - so at least have the decency to own it & not try to scapegoat the EU or remoaners or labour. YOU wanted us to go over the cliff - you can own it.
> 
> Raab & Davis our hapless 'negotiators' who you think could do a good job running the actual country :Hilarious Gove, Yes, Leadsom, Johnson, Mogg, Raab, Gove, Davis - fine MPs who have always worked at putting the best interests of the people first. Who have done so much to protect our environment & tackle climate change Who truly believe in our NHS & welfare state & public services!
> 
> They are the worst of the worst SWC, its wilful blindness in the extreme to be incapable of seeing that. God help this country if we crash out leaving either one of these extremists in charge, I'm glad I'll have played no part it its demise.
> 
> .
> 
> .


We should calmly remember that whatever happens the Parliamentary arithmetic will not change this side of the proposed Brexit date. There is a huge majority against a No Deal exit.

If May loses the vote today - which currently I don't think she will - then a new leader would surely have to extend Article 50, with the ready approval of Parliament.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for your doom and gloom post. Is your crystal ball working over time by any chance?


You don't need a crystal ball, all you need to do is look objectively at the ideology of the hard right libertarians, take a critical look at all the evidence. Look at their voting histories SWC 



Arnie83 said:


> We should calmly remember that whatever happens the Parliamentary arithmetic will not change this side of the proposed Brexit date. There is a huge majority against a No Deal exit.
> 
> If May loses the vote today - which currently I don't think she will - then a new leader would surely have to extend Article 50, with the ready approval of Parliament.


I hope you're right Arnie x


----------



## stockwellcat.

Let's remember through remainer May she managed in the first time ever in history to have the Government held in contempt of Parliament and has a deal that is undeliverable in Parliament. No wonder remainers are getting behind remainer May as this would be their only opportunity to get a 2nd referendum that no one else wants.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> This is only a ballot within the Conservative Party not Parliament. Corbyn could have triggered a vote of no confidence against the Government yesterday ousting the Conservatives from power but he didn't. So the Conservative Party has triggered a leadership challenge. The conservatives remain in power. If remainer May wins she stays in power for another year and cannot be challenged if this happens.


The Independents Jon Stone's take on this -

_Imagine if Labour had called that no-confience vote in parliament and united the Tory party just as they were about to call their own and tear themselves apart. 
Near miss_


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remainer May is making a statement to the press outside Downing Street shortly. The podium has gone up. Is she quiting?


----------



## noushka05

I suspect we all know the answer to this!

*David Yelland*‏Verified account @davidyelland 20h20 hours ago
Has a single Brexit editor or columnist had the humility or self awareness to admit they have led their readers to the brink of total disaster?
Or will they blame everybody else?


----------



## stockwellcat.

If remainer May loses tonight so does her deal and a WTO brexit becomes more likely as a brexiter MP will get in.


----------



## noushka05

J.K. Rowling: "_My mentions have taught me that Brexit is like Trump's wall. For its devoted fans it has a symbolic value totally unrelated to its workability, its true cost or the glaring self-interest of its proposers, whereas non-believers see nothing but a deranged and costly vanity project."_


*78,992* Likes


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> If remainer May loses tonight so does her deal and a WTO brexit becomes more likely as a brexiter MP will get in.


Do you actually understand the implications of falling onto WTO rules? Surely not, or you wouldn't be agitating for us to crash out

https://theconversation.com/no-deal...o-only-brexit-would-be-bad-for-britain-102009

.................................


----------



## kimthecat

They dont seem to think shes quitting. 
If they sack her now we will have another leadership contest and that can take weeks .


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏: Next Tory leader, latest odds:

The one who lied on a bus 6-1 
The one who lied about impact assessments 8-1 
The one who lied to Parliament and resigned 10-1 
The one who lied and didn't resign 15-1 
The one who destroyed the NHS 20-1 
The one who didn't know we were an island 8-1


----------



## Magyarmum

TM has just stated she will contest the no confidence vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

She is standing her ground and fighting to remain as leader. It is not up to her now. It is down to the rest of the Conservative Party.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> TM has just stated she will contest the no confidence vote.


And at present William Hill has her at 4/11 to win it and 2/1 that she loses.

Talk of who will replace her seems a little premature.

It's going to be a long day!


----------



## noushka05

Lots of love for the tories today:Hilarious

*Sue Perkins*‏: _This government comprises some of the most shape-shifting, self-serving, intellectually and morally bankrupt bunch of sad sacks in history. It has contempt for the law, for due process, for anything that resembles good governance. No confidence. Now._

N*icola Sturgeon*‏: _Today is a stark reminder that the UK is facing chaos and crisis entirely because of a vicious civil war within the *Tory* party. What a self-centred bunch they are. They all need to go, not just the PM._

*Owen Smith*‏: _Never forget it was *Tory* civil war that gave us Brexit chaos, the *Tory* Party war that has overseen a decade of cuts and the collapse of our international reputation. Their feuding is dragging us all down. We should reject them and their failed project at a #peoplesvote and #GE_


*Dan Rebellato*‏: _This whole Brexit thing has been about plunging the country into chaos because of the internal problems of the *Tory* party so, sure, you go ahead and have your leadership contest. We'll just sit here._


*Molly Scott Cato: *If I were a disaster capitalist hoping to profit from the turbulence a No Deal Brexit would bring, I think I would like a *Tory* leadership contest just about now Please can responsible MPs work around the failing party system to ensure extension of Art 50 and #PeoplesVote

*Anna Turley MP*‏: _ The nation has already spent 3 years being dragged into the *Tories*' internal psycho-drama over its hard-right's obsession with Europe, and our entire future in the world has been put at risk for internal indulgence. The British people are just an afterthought in *Tory* games._

*Chuka Umunna*‏: "Moderate, pragmatic, mainstream" is how the PM describes the *Tories* which are anything but - they are the total opposite. What a shower. Let's table a vote of no confidence in this appalling Government now.

*Matt Haig*‏: _It is so boring to slag off the *Tories* but wow they really are a slimefest of short-sighted, power-hungry, blinkered, privileged, flip-flopping, disloyal, empathy-starved, out-of-touch, arrogant f***ers who put their sad careers bang in front of this fetid corpse of a country_

_*TechnicallyRon*‏: Who will be up next for the *Tory* leadership? The bellend? The massive bellend? The racist bellend? The creepy bellend? The bellend who wants to kill you? So much choice_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Chuka Umunna*‏: "Moderate, pragmatic, mainstream" is how the PM describes the *Tories* which are anything but - they are the total opposite. What a shower. Let's table a vote of no confidence in this appalling Government now.


Corbyn had this chance yesterday.

He didn't do it.

If Remainer May gets voted back in tonight Labour will not be able to do it for 12 months as remainer May will be untouchable for 12 months.


----------



## Jonescat

That's the Tory leadership vote. A vote of No Confidence in the Government is a different thing. Not being able to command a majority in the House also means that the leader of the next biggest party should be offered a chance, and if they can't then we should have a general election. If anyone is still playing by the conventions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The cabinet meeting this afternoon has just been cancelled by remainer May.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> That's the Tory leadership vote. A vote of No Confidence in the Government is a different thing. Not being able to command a majority in the House also means that the leader of the next biggest party should be offered a chance, and if they can't then we should have a general election. If anyone is still playing by the conventions.


Corbyn hasn't got the self confidence to call a no confidence vote against the Government as he backed remainer May alot through the Brexit process and nodded most of the process through.


----------



## KittenKong

I should be excited about this development, but have a horrible feeling this has been deliberately engineered as a form of distraction, seeing May has lost her hold over Parliament. I wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated this to restore her authority and get her Brexit deal past.

She can put on the sad look seeking sympathy, people will feel sorry for her seeing she's bent over backwards to deliver the Brexit she insists was voted for.

She's exhausted with all that travel to countries outside her beloved Britain. The nasty foreigners won't give her exactly what she wants either.

She gains the sympathy, wins this leadership challenge which restores her total dominance of power over parliament and pass her Brexit plan.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I should be excited about this development, but have a horrible feeling this has been deliberately engineered as a form of distraction, seeing May has lost her hold over Parliament. I wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated this to restore her authority and get her Brexit deal past.
> 
> She can put on the sad look seeking sympathy, people will feel sorry for her seeing she's bent over backwards to deliver the Brexit she insists was voted for.
> 
> She's exhausted with all that travel to countries outside her beloved Britain. The nasty foreigners won't give her exactly what she wants either.
> 
> She gains the sympathy, wins this leadership challenge which restores her total dominance of power over parliament and pass her Brexit plan.


How could she have engineered this herself? What aload of nonesense.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> How could she have engineered this herself? What aload of nonesense.


Absolutely. What an absurd suggestion.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> And at present William Hill has her at 4/11 to win it and 2/1 that she loses.
> 
> Talk of who will replace her seems a little premature.
> 
> It's going to be a long day!


https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/e...om-of-historical-ranges-says-soc-gen-s-juckes

Reported on Euronews at 10.48

*UK: cabinet meeting cancelled, 75 MPs express support for May ahead of confidence vote*

British Prime Minister Theresa May has cancelled a meeting of her cabinet of senior ministers which had been scheduled for later today, her office said in a statement.
At least 75 MPs have expressed support publicly for May, ahead of the confidence vote in the Commons tonight.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/e...om-of-historical-ranges-says-soc-gen-s-juckes
> 
> Reported on Euronews at 10.48
> 
> *UK: cabinet meeting cancelled, 75 MPs express support for May ahead of confidence vote*
> 
> British Prime Minister Theresa May has cancelled a meeting of her cabinet of senior ministers which had been scheduled for later today, her office said in a statement.
> At least 75 MPs have expressed support publicly for May, ahead of the confidence vote in the Commons tonight.


She needs 83 more to win. But remember the 75 backing her at the moment can change their minds up to the last minute. The ballot is secret as well so no one knows who voted what.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> favoured by the fevered,


Sounds like a way-out and rather unsuccessful pop group.


----------



## Snoringbear

Satire? http://newsthump.com/2018/12/12/tor...g-the-will-of-the-mps-has-changed-since-2016/


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> How could she have engineered this herself? What aload of nonesense.


Ahem, it's too much of a co-incidence seeing she cancelled the parliamentary vote only 48 hours ago, knowing she won't win it.

I'd like to think I'm wrong and you are right though.


----------



## KittenKong

As a distraction (!) to this latest development we had Tabatha at the vets for her annual boosters.

There was a notice about what might happen to the validity of Pet Passports after the 29th March next year in the waiting area.....


----------



## Snoringbear

Just in case anyone missed the leaked number 10 footage of May


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> There was a notice about what might happen to the validity of Pet Passports after the 29th March next year in the waiting area.....


Got an email from my vets about this with a promise to update when they knew more.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> As a distraction (!) to this latest development we had Tabatha at the vets for her annual boosters.
> 
> There was a notice about what might happen to the validity of Pet Passports after the 29th March next year in the waiting area.....


I have it on pretty decent authority that even major pet food brands such as Royal Canin are seriously considering whether they can be bothered with the paperwork required to sell in the UK in the event of a no deal brexit (Royal Canin's distribution centre is in France)


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I have it on pretty decent authority that even major pet food brands such as Royal Canin are seriously considering whether they can be bothered with the paperwork required to sell in the UK in the event of a no deal brexit (Royal Canin's distribution centre is in France)


Hmm , its a very popular brand and sold at the vets , they could lose a lot of money if they cant be bothered.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Hmm , its a very popular brand and sold at the vets , they could lose a lot of money if they cant be bothered.


Depends on whether they think it is worth the outlay. I suspect more feed supermarket brands than RC, they may not think it viable under WTO rules given all the paperwork, lab tests, distribution infrastructure etc. they'd need to shell out for. I'm not entirely sure what the specific hurdles would be, but WTO import variations requirewd to simplify the process need to be agreed with all 120+ members (i.e. we can't just say we'll regard anything produced in x as ok), so that would take a while.


----------



## Arnie83

William Hill now offering 1/6 on May winning and 7/2 against her losing. Odds are often a bit dodgy but it's looking better for her. Kuenssberg saying 145 MPs have already declared in her favour; she needs 158 to win if I remember correctly.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> William Hill now offering 1/6 on May winning and 7/2 against her losing. Odds are often a bit dodgy but it's looking better for her. Kuenssberg saying 145 MPs have already declared in her favour; she needs 158 to win if I remember correctly.


So with her restored authority over parliament she'll get her Brexit plan passed then parliament can break up for Christmas.

Seems I was right after all. This is nothing more than a distraction.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Depends on whether they think it is worth the outlay. I suspect more feed supermarket brands than RC, they may not think it viable under WTO rules given all the paperwork, lab tests, distribution infrastructure etc. they'd need to shell out for. I'm not entirely sure what the specific hurdles would be, but WTO import variations requirewd to simplify the process need to be agreed with all 120+ members (i.e. we can't just say we'll regard anything produced in x as ok), so that would take a while.


They already sell globally. If they think it's worth the hassle to sell in Australia, I'm sure it'll be nothing to continue selling here where we have at least 5x the pet market. Lidl and Aldi are still expanding here and they're both German.


----------



## stockwellcat.

141 MP's have publicly said they will back remainer May. Let's hope she doesn't reach 158 as this is what she needs to see off this leadership challenge.

As stated on sky news earlier MP's pubilicly say things and change there minds nearer the time. So these 141 MP's can change their minds up to when they vote between 6pm and 8pm.

MP's are privately trying to come up with on person to back if there is a leadership challenge later which will mean if one candidate is chosen that person will take over from May immediately if she doesn't win the leadership challenge vote.

Note: when I say MP's I mean Conservative MP's.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> So with her restored authority over parliament she'll get her Brexit plan passed then parliament can break up for Christmas.
> 
> Seems I was right after all. This is nothing more than a distraction.


I don't think there's any way that the 'meaningful vote' will be held before the Christmas break. She'll say she's still talking to the EU and put it off until mid-January.

And while I think the huge majority against her deal will probably be reduced, it would take significant changes to it to get it through, and it isn't going to change. (Merkel has reiterated that in the past hour, apparently.)


----------



## Arnie83

Meanwhile in the EU

*#BREAKING EU parliament approves huge Japan trade deal*










If anyone thinks we will get a better one once we leave, a fifth the size of the EU, please let me know how. I would be genuinely interested to know.


----------



## kimthecat

What is the deal? Theres no link . #BREAKING just goes to twitter and the photo doesnt go anywhere


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> What is the deal? Theres no link . #BREAKING just goes to twitter and the photo doesnt go anywhere


It doesn't link, but I would think the details of the deal would be on the EU website. Don't tell me you're going to read it! :Wideyed


----------



## kimthecat

May just said that a Jeremy Corbyn Labour government is a bigger threat to the UK than BRexit. She could have a point.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> It doesn't link, but I would think the details of the deal would be on the EU website. Don't tell me you're going to read it! :Wideyed


Oh sorry 
Of *course* I was going to read it :Hilarious Look , I have brain fog , I blame the meds ,


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> So with her restored authority over parliament she'll get her Brexit plan passed then parliament can break up for Christmas.
> 
> Seems I was right after all. This is nothing more than a distraction.


 Its a *very *risky ploy .


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It doesn't link, but I would think the details of the deal would be on the EU website. Don't tell me you're going to read it! :Wideyed


Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the EU/Japan trade deal was done and dusted in July this year???

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ne-of-history-s-largest-trade-deals-1.3567791


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the EU/Japan trade deal was done and dusted in July this year???
> 
> https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ne-of-history-s-largest-trade-deals-1.3567791


It is regurgitated news from remainers to try and boost their campaign :Yawn

It was done and dusted in July.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like remainer May is well on the way to winning. 152 MP's have publically said they will back her she only needs 6 more. Looks like the UK is stuck with her for another 12 months at least.


----------



## KittenKong

Some sources now report May will now offer to stand down before the next GE if they back her.

They aren't going to fall for that one are they?









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ence-vote-brexit-prime-minister-a8679631.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

155 have now publically said they will back remainer May only 3 more needed to make her safe as PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remainer May has done it. She has publically got 158 MP's backing her now. She has won the confidence vote if they vote this way tonight.


----------



## Gallifreyangirl




----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat. Lets hope they don't change their minds.


----------



## kimthecat

Gallifreyangirl said:


> View attachment 380993


Id vote for him !


----------



## JANICE199

*What they say in public is one thing, what they vote for is another. I for one will never trust a tory.*


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *What they say in public is one thing, what they vote for is another. I for one will never trust a tory.*


Agree with you but Id never trust Labour or LIb Dems either


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Some sources now report May will now offer to stand down before the next GE if they back her.
> 
> They aren't going to fall for that one are they?
> 
> View attachment 380991
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ence-vote-brexit-prime-minister-a8679631.html


I think the Tory party know they can`t have her as leader for the next GE, she must be aware of that and probably intending on standing down before next GE. The problem is when the next GE is going to be! JRM and the rest of the 48 are worried it could be sooner rather than later. It is all an almighty mess!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Gallifreyangirl said:


> View attachment 380993


I'd vote for him.


----------



## kimthecat

Breaking News : Humphrey Hamster is taking over. He has a plan !










ETA OFF topic but anyone remember Hampton Hanster and his dance ?
https://hampsterdance.com/classics/originaldance.htm


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> They already sell globally. If they think it's worth the hassle to sell in Australia, I'm sure it'll be nothing to continue selling here where we have at least 5x the pet market. Lidl and Aldi are still expanding here and they're both German.


I can only tell you what I know. Australia don't have a free trade agreement with the EU (yet - it's being worked on), but they do have mutual recognition agreements, and they are also members of APEC, CPTPP and RCEP, so the hurdles for EU members are significantly lower for trading with Australia than they would be for the UK under WTO conditions.

Either way, overseas companies have to take a view on effort versus profit at some point in the event of a No Deal, and I would say it is statistically likely some companies (probably the smaller, higher quality produce outfits) may consider it not worth bothering with initially. Whether they would reconsider once (if) agreements were made would be something they would have to consider separately.

I don't know about Lidl and Aldi; they may have a No Deal strategy for survival, or they may be gambling that the UK won't risk a No Deal scenario and carrying on investing until things become clear one way or the other. As ever, the kicker will be if they can still turn a profit.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the EU/Japan trade deal was done and dusted in July this year???
> 
> https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ne-of-history-s-largest-trade-deals-1.3567791


It was agreed, but the EU Parliament have to approve it, (the EU is nothing if not democratic! ) and they did that today. It should come into force in February I understand.

Together the EU and Japan represent a third of global GDP.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It was agreed, but the EU Parliament have to approve it, which they did today. It should come into force in February I understand.
> 
> Together the EU and Japan represent a third of global GDP.


Just in time for Brexit.
My sides are splitting with laughter!
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

I'm going to be voting for the Pei party and their leader The Rt Hon Miss Pei Face


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I'm going to be voting for the Pei party and their leader The Rt Hon Miss Pei Face


Its a plot ! That is not Miss Pei Face , its Theresa May In disguise !


----------



## KittenKong

From Bristol for Europe:

"Downing Street has dropped a heavy hint that Theresa May would not seek to lead her party into the next general election, even if she wins Wednesday night’s confidence vote.

As May embarked on a series of face-to-face meetings with her backbench colleagues in a bid to secure their backing, a spokesman said: “She does not believe that this vote, today, is about who leads the Conservative party into the next election – it is about whether it is sensible to change the leader at this point in the Brexit process.”

Asked if she would set a specific departure date, her spokesman said, “I’m not aware of that, no.”

But he added: “She believes it’s her duty to serve as long as the party wants her to … she serves at the pleasure of the Conservative party”.

That is a different message from the one the prime minister delivered in January, when on a trip to China she told reporters: “I’m not a quitter”."


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am voting for Brenda from Bristol


----------



## kimthecat

Ive got a song from the 70s in my head now .

Na na na na , na na na na , hey , hey hey Goodbye !

I wonder if they will be singing that tonight .

The sing is fab but the band , Bless'em ! so earnest .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I am voting for Brenda from Bristol


:Hilarious But will she accept !

"Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them !"


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Ive got a song from the 70s in my head now .
> 
> Na na na na , na na na na , hey , hey hey Goodbye !
> 
> I wonder if they will be singing that tonight .
> 
> The sing is fab but the band , Bless'em ! so earnest .


Steam. The follow up was the very similar sounding, "What I'm Saying Is True" funnily enough....


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Its a plot ! That is not Miss Pei Face , its Theresa May In disguise !


Damn it ...... foiled again!


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Steam. The follow up was the very similar sounding, "What I'm Saying Is True" funnily enough....


Yeah ! 

I think Nothing Else Matters sums it up .

Never cared for what they say 
Never cared for games they play 
Never cared for what they do 
Never cared for what they know 
And I know

So close no matter how far 
Couldn't be much more from the heart 
Forever trusting who you are 
No, nothing else matters


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 380998


Heard the vote could be something like 52% to 48% in favour of May.

In 1990 Thatcher won by the same amount but that wasn't considered big enough for her to continue. She unexpectedly resigned 24 hrs later.

May won't resign of course though. This will give her a bit of respite before the in-fighting starts again. Probably long enough to get her Brexit deal through.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Heard the vote could be something like 52% to 48% in favour of May.
> 
> In 1990 Thatcher won by the same amount but that wasn't considered enough for her to continue. She unexpectedly resigned 24 hrs later.


I doubt remainer May if re-elected tonight will step down before 2022 (Next General Election).

165 MP's have now said they will vote for her.

I am hoping that a Brexiter will be voted in as PM and remainer May is ousted.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them !"


And some seek greatness by stabbing others in the back, lying through their teeth, and being prepared for the whole country to suffer so that they can reach their goal.

Yes, Boris, I'm looking at you!


----------



## Jesthar




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Heard the vote could be something like *52% to 48%* in favour of May.


I'm sure the ERG would accept such a result without demur and would immediately get right behind her.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> And some seek greatness by stabbing others in the back, lying through their teeth, and being prepared for the whole country to suffer so that they can reach their goal.
> 
> Yes, Boris, I'm looking at you!


and sneaky too . Being out of the country when the Third runway vote was being held as he had promised his constituents he would vote against it. unch

Today the Pound has risen against the Dollar and Euro as the stock market is confident that TM will stay and her deal pass . Though how long that will last is anyone;s guess.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> and sneaky too . Being out of the country when the Third runway vote was being held as he had promised his constituents he would vote against it. unch
> 
> Today the Pound has risen against the Dollar and Euro as the stock market is confident that TM will stay *and her deal pass *. Though how long that will last is anyone;s guess.


Possibly, but I'm going to propose it's more that the chance of No Deal has receded.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> and sneaky too . Being out of the country when the Third runway vote was being held as he had promised his constituents he would vote against it. unch
> 
> Today the Pound has risen against the Dollar and Euro as the stock market is confident that TM will stay and her deal pass . Though how long that will last is anyone;s guess.


Goodness! May seems likely to stay but getting her deal through parliament still seems a task to far. Those who vote against her tonight and presumably there will be at least 48 will be unlikely to vote for her deal so she still won`t have full party backing! Around and around it goes where it lands no one knows!


----------



## stockwellcat.

After remainer May quashes the rebellion tonight it will be back to business tomorrow and she will be even more confident that she cannot be challenged for 12 months. Over 170 conservative MP's have said they are backing remainer May tonight which is more. than enough for her to win. The next big thing is getting her awful deal through Parliament, the legal deadline for this is 21st January 2019, how she is going to do this no one knows?


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> Goodness! May seems likely to stay but getting her deal through parliament still seems a task to far. Those who vote against her tonight and presumably there will be at least 48 will be unlikely to vote for her deal so she still won`t have full party backing! Around and around it goes where it lands no one knows!


I suspect - maybe it's my bias making it more likely in my head - that at least some of them will be saying to her today "Put the option of a People's Vote to Parliament if they vote down your proposed Deal, and I'll vote for you tonight".


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

Awww.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Awww.
> View attachment 381071


Love larry! When they`ve got the cameras outside No. 10 I keep hoping to see him playing in the Christmas tree


----------



## Arnie83

This next hour is pretty much make or break for the ERG and their throwback No Deal aspirations. If May wins, Rees-Mogg & co are impotent for a year until way after Brexit is delivered or abandoned. Here's hoping!


----------



## cheekyscrip

May Day , May Day!


----------



## Magyarmum

She's just arrived back at no 10.

According to the CNN reporter she was smiling, although as he said she's a very difficult person to read.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It is rumoured she has secured over 200 votes if she has this will be seen as a victory as she was elected into power in 2016 with 199 votes.

There is also rumour only 83 to 86 voted against her.

She looked very confident walking back into Downing Street.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Why Tories need an hour or more for counting 3 hundred ballots? 

Doesn’t say much about their counting skills...


----------



## Magyarmum

She's won her vote of confidence!

Cast in favour 200

Against 117


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remainer May is now safe for 12 months.


----------



## stuaz

Well what a waste of time that all was.... guess it served as another distraction from the real issue(s)......


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Well what a waste of time that all was.... guess it served as another distraction from the real issue(s)......


ERG got their comeuppance.

At least that!!!

Thought it was so idiotic of them to choose that very moment for party quarrels.

But then it is ERG so what new?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> But then it is ERG so what new?


Rees Mogg after he found out the result demanded Theresa May resigned. She had just won.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour need the DUP onside to push for a no confidence vote against the Government but it looks as if the Government is safe for now.










Note: The conservatives (315 MP's) won't vote against their own party so their party is elected out of power.

Outspoken remainer Anna Soubry has said she will vote for her Government in a Parliamentary vote of no confidence against the Government. Corbyn won't get the Parliamentary vote of no confidence against the Government through at all.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Rees Mogg after he found out the result demanded Theresa May resigned. She had just won.


Yes indeed. I heard she won 63% of the vote he's alleged to have argued is not enough.

Yet on a different matter 52%/48% is.

Hypocrisy in the first order.

Still, it was a nice little distraction yesterday wasn't it. Theresa May is strong and stable again.

Now she'll get her Brexit deal passed no problem.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed. I heard she won 63% of the vote he's alleged to have argued is not enough.


She won by 83 Majority.


> Still, it was a nice little distraction yesterday wasn't it.


By the rebels in the Conservative Party yes.

She is now Leader and PM for 12 months and cannot be challenged again during this period.

I see the DUP soon reconfirmed there confidence and supply arrangement with her basically weakening Labours chance of getting a vote of no confidence against the Government through before Christmas as planned.


----------



## KittenKong

So, at least another year of chaos and gross incompetence. Another five years, the next decade probably.

May has proven she can do what the bloody hell she wants and still get away with it.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> So, at least another year of chaos and gross incompetence. Another five years, the next decade probably.
> 
> May has proven she can do what the bloody hell she wants and still get away with it.


Perhaps she rigged the vote? Or made death threats to all the MP's families?


----------



## Arnie83

I note that Jacob Rees-"I always play the ball not the man"-Mogg has said that most of May's votes came from those "on the payroll"; Ministers, PPS etc. So in effect he's accusing every one of them of putting their own interests before those of the country (and the party). Nice.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I note that Jacob Rees-"I always play the ball not the man"-Mogg has said that most of May's votes came from those "on the payroll"; Ministers, PPS etc. So in effect he's accusing every one of them of putting their own interests before those of the country (and the party). Nice.


The man's a hypocrite!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Awww.
> View attachment 381071


 He couldn't do any worse.:Arghh


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> Rees Mogg after he found out the result demanded Theresa May resigned. She had just won.


A deeply unpleasant man



stockwellcat. said:


> She won by 83 Majority.
> 
> She is now Leader and PM for 12 months and cannot be challenged again during this period.


As seems to be the norm these days, the extremists get all the publicity but when it goes to a vote, the silent majority get heard. Maybe we should have more votes on more subjects.
Maybe a few online, with the option of postal about the more serious subjects, before MPs vote on it


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> As seems to be the norm these days, the extremists get all the publicity but when it goes to a vote, the silent majority get heard.


You know, that's one of the most succinct arguments for a people's vote to ratify support for the final Brexit deal I've seen


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Now she'll get her Brexit deal passed no problem.


Do you think she will? Noting seems to have changed except we know 117 of her own party will almost definitely not vote for her deal. Presumably the opposition parties are still not going to vote for it and the DUP are still indicting nothing has changed as far as they concerned. Unless she comes back form EU with major changes it still seems she has huge battle on her hands to get her vote through.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Perhaps she rigged the vote? Or made death threats to all the MP's families?


I wouldn't go that far, but didn't she restore the whip to one or two suspended party members to seek support?



3dogs2cats said:


> Do you think she will? Noting seems to have changed except we know 117 of her own party will almost definitely not vote for her deal. Presumably the opposition parties are still not going to vote for it and the DUP are still indicting nothing has changed as far as they concerned. Unless she comes back form EU with major changes it still seems she has huge battle on her hands to get her vote through.


I hope you're right. I imagine with her new found support with her opponents within her party weakened she'll successfully whip her MPs into voting for her deal.

Many who were to vote against who backed May yesterday will be more likely to support it for the sake of supporting May.

The only hope now is the opposition parties plus the DUP stick to their guns.

I trust the SNP will but have my doubts about Labour unfortunately.


----------



## KittenKong

How things change.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> How things change.
> 
> View attachment 381191


If 52 / 48 is somehow seen as a mandate to pursue a hard and damaging Brexit, as the ERG seem to think, then 63 / 37 surely qualifies as a landslide endorsement!


----------



## noushka05

Michael Heseltine: _ It is appalling that 70% of young people want to stay in Europe, and they're being ignored by the 70% of old people who want to leave. .....


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072943585950134272
...................................................................................._


----------



## noushka05

Poor Boris, my heart bleeds:Hilarious

https://www.ft.com/content/adec4e06...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-b561e05cc4-189986641


----------



## KittenKong

The damn cheek of it! She must be desperate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...mith-reject-theresa-mays-call-for-cooperation


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Michael Heseltine: _ It is appalling that 70% of young people want to stay in Europe, and they're being ignored by the 70% of old people who want to leave. .....
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072943585950134272
> ...................................................................................._


Maybe they're older and wiser. I wouldn't have expected you to rate Heseltine, or be following his tweets.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Maybe they're older and wiser. I wouldn't have expected you to rate Heseltine, or be following his tweets.


In this case - clearly not wiser!:Hilarious I don't rate him or follow his tweets, that doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with him on everything.. And In this instance what hes saying is factual.


----------



## noushka05

James Felton: A short guide to percentages from Jacob Rees Mogg:

63% “a terrible result for the prime minister she must resign” 


52% “a resounding victory hard brexit now”

.......


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> James Felton: A short guide to percentages from Jacob Rees Mogg:
> 
> 63% "a terrible result for the prime minister she must resign"
> 
> 52% "a resounding victory hard brexit now"
> 
> .......


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> In this case - clearly not wiser!:Hilarious I don't rate him or follow his tweets, that doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with him on everything.. And In this instance what hes saying is factual.


His opinion, not factual and actually unlikely.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*How to cope with another year of Theresa bloody May*
13th December 2018

*THERESA May is set to stay for at least another year, so how will you survive more of her bullshit? Follow our guide to making it as painless as possible.*

*Drink and drugs*

Go on an insane Hunter S. Thompson-style bender fuelled by LSD, heroin and Tesco own-brand gin. After a year your life will have fallen apart but you'll be oblivious to the latest gripping wrangles over the Northern Ireland 'backstop'.

*Become an up-yourself TV political correspondent*

Nick Robinson, Laura Kuenssberg, Robert Peston - these twats love pontificating about Westminster politics while conveying very little worthwhile information. However they are very well paid and probably even get groupies. Give it a go.

*Have no news media*

This basically means getting rid of your TV and computer and never buying or even looking at a newspaper. You'll be a social pariah who can't discuss shows like _Bodyguard_ with your mates in the pub, but they'll be fascinated by the fact that you've finally finished _Anna Karenina_.

*Have your short-term memory removed*

With no short-term memory, May yet again returning from Brussels with the same crap Brexit deal will seem like fresh and exciting news, not the tedious version of _Groundhog Day_ it really is.

NHS doctors are unlikely to agree to this risky cranial procedure, so you'll probably have to go to a dodgy surgeon in Bolivia and possibly be turned into a vegetable, but it's worth the risk.


----------



## stockwellcat.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073220017490145280


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> His opinion, not factual and actually unlikely.


 Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true Elles; The vast majority of young people voted remain & although the repercussions of brexit will affect them the most they are being ignored. It is unforgivable. We're a broken country thanks to brexit, and if we leave on Mays terms or crash out without a deal things are going to get so bad even the most rabid leave supporter will be forced to face reality then.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true Elles; The vast majority of young people voted remain & although the repercussions of brexit will affect them the most they are being ignored. It is unforgivable. We're a broken country thanks to brexit, and if we leave on Mays terms or crash out without a deal things are going to get so bad even the most rabid leave supporter will be forced to face reality then.


Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, or fact. The vast majority of young people do a lot of things, it doesn't mean they're ignored. On the contrary, their elders often try to get them to see sense. Many older people voted the way they did because of the young. Including both leave and remain voters.

I'm getting sick and tired of this ageism and attacks on older people who are trying to do what they think best for a future that may not even be theirs, whether they voted Remain or leave. Do you think older people are really all so selfish they only vote for what might be best for themselves, but destroy young lives? It's ridiculous.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, or fact. The vast majority of young people do a lot of things, it doesn't mean they're ignored. On the contrary, their elders often try to get them to see sense. Many older people voted the way they did because of the young. Including both leave and remain voters.
> 
> I'm getting sick and tired of this ageism and attacks on older people who are trying to do what they think best for a future that may not even be theirs, whether they voted Remain or leave. Do you think older people are really all so selfish they only vote for what might be best for themselves, but destroy young lives? It's ridiculous.


I believe it because it is fact Elles, We know that over 70% of young people voted remain & visa versa for older people. Young people have grown up in the EU, they love the freedom being in the EU gives them & obviously all the other benefits which they stand to lose.

Its clear many older people fell for the propaganda pumped out in the right wing media & the likes of that Martin Durkin video. Which you yourself even said had influenced people to vote leave If I recall.

You really underestimate the young generation Elles, they are far more savvy & informed than you give them credit for. Do you think these young people, who are the future. should have their voice heard?

Are you saying Hesletine is being ageist?  Hes just stating the facts. I'm sure many older people who voted leave did so believing brexit was for the best for the young- but now we can all be be better informed if we choose to be & its blatantly clear to anyone looking objectively that brexit is a massive & very costly mistake. The young have been vindicated.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, or fact. The vast majority of young people do a lot of things, it doesn't mean they're ignored. On the contrary, their elders often try to get them to see sense. Many older people voted the way they did because of the young. Including both leave and remain voters.
> 
> I'm getting sick and tired of this ageism and attacks on older people who are trying to do what they think best for a future that may not even be theirs, whether they voted Remain or leave. Do you think older people are really all so selfish they only vote for what might be best for themselves, but destroy young lives? It's ridiculous.


I agree with you - just because older people tended to vote Leave doesn't mean they did it with "malice aforethought"! I always thought in a democracy one has the right to vote according to one's preferences without having to take into consideration other people's preferences

Two interesting articles you might like to read ...

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/b8d097b0-3ad4-4dd9-aa25-af6374292de0

My two grandchildren who were 19 and 21 in 2016 both voted Leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Can I butt in @Elles & @noushka05 ? (Too late; I have!)

The young who voted back in June 2016 haven't been ignored; they were simply outvoted. And no democracy takes into account the length of time that any decision is going to impact on different groups and 'weight' their opinions accordingly.

The young who have become eligible to vote since June 2016 certainly are being ignored. Whether that is right or not is down to personal opinion, I guess.

Personally, I think the demographic changes alone mean that the 'Will of the People' justification for what's going on is deeply unsafe and we should really be concerned about what people think as we approach Brexit rather than what a different set of people thought more than 2 years ago. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Elles

I'll quote the tweet again



noushka05 said:


> Michael Heseltine: _ It is appalling that 70% of young people want to stay in Europe, and they're being ignored by the 70% of old people who want to leave. .....
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072943585950134272
> ...................................................................................._


Young people who voted remain are not being ignored by older people who voted leave. The people, young and old and in between, who voted leave and who want to leave the Eu, do so because they believe it will be best for the future, including, probably even prioritising the young who will live in it. It's absolute rubbish to say otherwise. Not agreeing with someone's opinion, isn't ignoring them.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Can I butt in @Elles & @noushka05 ? (Too late; I have!)
> 
> The young who voted back in June 2016 haven't been ignored; they were simply outvoted. And no democracy takes into account the length of time that any decision is going to impact on different groups and 'weight' their opinions accordingly.
> 
> The young who have become eligible to vote since June 2016 certainly are being ignored. Whether that is right or not is down to personal opinion, I guess.
> 
> Personally, I think the demographic changes alone mean that the 'Will of the People' justification for what's going on is deeply unsafe and we should really be concerned about what people think as we approach Brexit rather than what a different set of people thought more than 2 years ago. But that's just my opinion.


I don't agree. Our 16 year olds and younger were likely already a priority to their parents and grandparents etc when we voted 2 years ago. They were far from ignored. Though that isn't what the tweet referred to and of course there are 17 year olds and younger that aren't eligible to vote today, so we could go that route forever.

I can agree with a confirming vote on the structure of how we leave the Eu, I just don't agree that the only choice should be remain with a say, or delay without a say, which is what leave voters seem to agree May's deal is. There should be at least one further option, though I'd prefer they actually got a deal that people can agree over first, rather than one it seems everyone bar May and the Eu support.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I agree with you - just because older people tended to vote Leave doesn't mean they did it with "malice aforethought"! I always thought in a democracy one has the right to vote according to one's preferences without having to take into consideration other people's preferences
> 
> Two interesting articles you might like to read ...
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/b8d097b0-3ad4-4dd9-aa25-af6374292de0
> 
> My two grandchildren who were 19 and 21 in 2016 both voted Leave.


I'm sure no one is saying older people voted leave with malice. But as your links show the majority of young people voted remain & as the older generation sadly pass away, and more young are eligible to vote - they should have a say in their future imo.

My two children and most of their friends voted to remain.

This is an article by a young lady fighting for her future,

*Young people won't forgive those who deny us a vote on this botched Brexit*

*We refuse to let politicians create a more isolated, insular nation and destroy our futures. We demand a final say*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/18/young-people-brexit-peoples-vote-future



Arnie83 said:


> Can I butt in @Elles & @noushka05 ? (Too late; I have!)
> 
> The young who voted back in June 2016 haven't been ignored; they were simply outvoted. And no democracy takes into account the length of time that any decision is going to impact on different groups and 'weight' their opinions accordingly.
> 
> The young who have become eligible to vote since June 2016 certainly are being ignored. Whether that is right or not is down to personal opinion, I guess.
> 
> Personally, I think the demographic changes alone mean that the 'Will of the People' justification for what's going on is deeply unsafe and we should really be concerned about what people think as we approach Brexit rather than what a different set of people thought more than 2 years ago. But that's just my opinion.


I can't disagree with your points Arnie  x
.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The people, young and old and in between, who voted leave and who want to leave the Eu, do so because they believe it will be best for the future, including, probably even prioritising the young who will live in it.


But its obvious to everyone with their eyes open that brexit is a complete and utter shambles. Mays deal is a disaster if we crash out without a deal it will be a catastrophe.


----------



## Elles

They won’t forgive a bunch of dead people? They can’t change anything in the future? 

I think history tells us they can.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> But its obvious to everyone with their eyes open that brexit is a complete and utter shambles. Mays deal is a disaster if we crash out without a deal it will be a catastrophe.


Brexit is currently mismanaged by a government who want to remain in the Eu, colluding with the Eu.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexit is currently mismanaged by a government who want to remain in the Eu, colluding with the Eu.


So tell me what a 'leave' government would do differently that could get us a good deal?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> So tell me what a 'leave' government would do differently that could get us a good deal?


Absolutely nothing, because you'd never agree that any deal other than staying in the Eu was a 'good' deal.


----------



## Arnie83

For info:

*Daniel Hannan's MEP group told to repay €535,000 in EU funds*
Exclusive: Alliance of Conservatives and Reformists in Europe accused of hosting luxury events of little relevance to EU​
This is, of course, exactly the sort of thing that contributes to the fiction of the EU being unusually corrupt.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Absolutely nothing, because you'd never agree that any deal other than staying in the Eu was a 'good' deal.


How convenient :Hilarious. The key leavers wont put anything down on paper either because they know once its subjected to scrutiny it will fall apart!

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/must-watch-take-on-the-tories-theresa-may/

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Brexit is currently mismanaged by a government who want to remain in the Eu, colluding with the Eu.


I absolutely agree with this comment.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I absolutely agree with this comment.


Of course you do.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/must-watch-take-on-the-tories-theresa-may/

,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> You know, that's one of the most succinct arguments for a people's vote to ratify support for the final Brexit deal I've seen


We've already had that vote though and the silent majority spoke


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Of course you do.
> 
> https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/must-watch-take-on-the-tories-theresa-may/
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,


You're pretty predictable yourself. 

Ask Corbyn maybe? He's a brexiteer who says there's a better deal out there.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> We've already had that vote though and the silent majority spoke


Perhaps. But there was only a brief summary phrase on the ballot paper, and (if we're going to be honest about this) with or without the various misleading campaigning on all sides there could be no real idea what leave actually entailed as no-one had attempted it before. I'm sure each individual voter had a specific idea in their head as to what they thought they would get, but hopefully now they also have a better idea of what the reality would be.

Now, if those who voted leave are happy with the final deal, there's no problem. If not, then there is a problem as what they wanted and expected has not been delivered.

What bothers me is that the Government are happy to claim they are delivering the will of the people, but are loath to check this is actually the case. I get the feeling the phrase "this is what you voted for, get over it" (or words to that effect) will be haunting the UK public for decades in the event of a bad or no deal...


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> We've already had that vote though and the silent majority spoke


Yes, but we didn't know all the facts.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> over 70% of young people voted remain


I read that only about 40% of ''young people'' even bothered to vote (?) so we are talking about 70% of the 40% are we? So that's about 28% (I think [I'm dull at maths]). Also, by ''young people'' there seems to be some confusion as to whether ''young people'' are 18 - 24 or 18 - 34 (years of age).


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You're pretty predictable yourself.
> 
> Ask Corbyn maybe? He's a brexiteer who says there's a better deal out there.


Oh and yet more whataboutery:Hilarious



Calvine said:


> I read that only about 40% of ''young people'' even bothered to vote (?) so we are talking about 70% of the 40% are we? So that's about 28% (I think [I'm dull at maths]). Also, by ''young people'' there seems to be some confusion as to whether ''young people'' are 18 - 24 or 18 - 34 (years of age).


As the demographic shifts, in a few years time we'll be living with a population that voted remain,


----------



## noushka05

Just imagine!

*Jack Monroe*‏: _Imagine what we could have achieved collectively in the past two and a half years if we hadn't all been pouring all of our attention and energy into Brexit bull****. Imagine what we could have done as a country if we weren't so consumed by gammonf***ing flagshagging egotism_

..


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> As the demographic shifts, in a few years time we'll be living with a population that voted remain,


What a load of nonesense.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> What a load of nonesense.


How is it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> How is it?


People who voted leave will still vote leave. Those that voted remain are completely split in many directions and some of them said that they will now vote leave. Some remainers assume that many of the leave voters were old and they weren't, many young people (18 to 35 or whatever age bracket you want to apply to being young) voted leave and got bullied online from remain supporters online for making their decision to leave. The pop up polls in newspapers, online etc are not trustworthy. If you remember they predicted remain would win the referendum by a large margine and they didn't. I was told by a certain member in a certain country in a closed thread on here that these polls should not be relied upon and now some remainers on here are now saying they are reliable and are factual when they aren't factual at all. Straws are what you are grasping at with 3 months to go until the UK either leaves with May's deal or crashes out of the EU with no deal. The EU Leaders have repeatedly made it clear this deal is not negotiable and they will not reopen negotiations and if it is rejected by UK Parliament it will be no deal. They said this again today not me. This means Corbyn cannot renegotiate it, nor can May or anyone else.

May has now been elected by her own party to stay in post as PM and is safe for the next 12 months. Whilst she is PM there will be no Peoples Vote or Second Referendum as she has categorically ruled it out and no extension to article 50. Time is running out fast.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Perhaps. But there was only a brief summary phrase on the ballot paper, and (if we're going to be honest about this) with or without the various misleading campaigning on all sides there could be no real idea what leave actually entailed as no-one had attempted it before. I'm sure each individual voter had a specific idea in their head as to what they thought they would get, but hopefully now they also have a better idea of what the reality would be.
> 
> Now, if those who voted leave are happy with the final deal, there's no problem. If not, then there is a problem as what they wanted and expected has not been delivered.
> 
> What bothers me is that the Government are happy to claim they are delivering the will of the people, but are loath to check this is actually the case. I get the feeling the phrase "this is what you voted for, get over it" (or words to that effect) will be haunting the UK public for decades in the event of a bad or no deal...


Well put.

It's as though we are saying 'Look, it doesn't matter what people want now.'

If people are happy with May's deal, then so be it.

If people are not happy, and would actually prefer to stay, through what convoluted logic can we ignore that? Who on earth is being 'betrayed' by asking the people what they think now that the facts are known?

The silly arguments about a vote being undemocratic or talking about 'neverendums' fool nobody. Once we are out, we are out, and the chances of getting back in again are remote, let alone with the same deal we have now. So it is never going to be the case of more than one confirmatory, or reversing, vote. The only people who put up arguments against that are those who fear the People's Will might have changed.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> People who voted leave will still vote leave. Those that voted remain are completely split in many directions and some of them said that they will now vote leave. Some remainers assume that many of the leave voters were old and they weren't, many young people (18 to 35 or whatever age bracket you want to apply to being young) voted leave and got bullied online from remain supporters online for making their decision to leave. The pop up polls in newspapers, online etc are not trustworthy. If you remember they predicted remain would win the referendum by a large margine and they didn't. I was told by a certain member in a certain country in a closed thread on here that these polls should not be relied upon and now some remainers on here are now saying they are reliable and are factual when they aren't factual at all. Straws are what you are grasping at with 3 months to go until the UK either leaves with May's deal or crashes out of the EU with no deal. The EU Leaders have repeatedly made it clear this deal is not negotiable and they will not reopen negotiations and if it is rejected by UK Parliament it will be no deal. They said this again today not me. This means Corbyn cannot renegotiate it, nor can May or anyone else.


Sigh

The under 55s voted remain, by 2021 the UK majority will be remain.

https://www.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Sigh
> 
> The under 55s voted remain, by 2021 the UK majority will be remain.
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f


I am not the only one to point this out but some remainers are so agest. I am under 55 and still will be in 2021. I will still voted leave and so will everyone I know.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


That graph looks like something someone knocked up at home and put the source in at the bottom with no credible link to the source.


----------



## Elles

Elles said:


> You're pretty predictable yourself.
> 
> Ask Corbyn maybe? He's a brexiteer who says there's a better deal out there.





noushka05 said:


> Oh and yet more whataboutery:Hilarious
> 
> As the demographic shifts, in a few years time we'll be living with a population that voted remain,


You what? You asked what deal a brexiteer would come up with and I said to ask Corbyn. About the deal a brexiteer would negotiate. Corbyn is a brexiteer who says he can negotiate a better deal. What's that got to do with the word of the month?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not the only one to point this out but some remainers are so agest. I am under 55 and still will be in 2021. I will still voted leave and so will everyone I know.


----------



## Elles

We’ll see. If they have a second vote with no choice and reject May’s deal, maybe in a few years they’ll have another referendum with an actual plan put forward and the young of today, tomorrow’s elders, will vote to leave it. Or maybe the Eu will take notice of their own experts and improve enough that no one needs to. Only time will tell.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> You what? You asked what deal a brexiteer would come up with and I said to ask Corbyn. About the deal a brexiteer would negotiate. Corbyn is a brexiteer who says he can negotiate a better deal. What's that got to do with the word of the month?


No Elles, I said 


noushka05 said:


> So tell me what a 'leave' government would do differently that could get us a good dea


 I was asking you. You used Corbyn as a deflection from answering the question. Like May, Corbyn voted remain Elles - so if shes a remainer so is he. And lets face it if you don't like Mays deal I'm pretty sure you would hate anything Corbyn came back with. So what would a 'real' 'leave' government do differently ??


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> No Elles, I said
> I was asking you. You used Corbyn as a deflection from answering the question. Like May, Corbyn voted remain Elles - so if shes a remainer so is he. And lets face it if you don't like Mays deal I'm pretty sure you would hate anything Corbyn came back with. So what would a 'real' 'leave' government do differently ??


He's a leaver and always has been. She's a Remainer and always has been. A real leave government would have already left and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't like any deal, I'm not bothered if we end up with no deal, or staying in. I don't understand why Remainers are so against May's deal. It doesn't particularly settle anything, keeps us close enough to how it would be if we didn't leave and it's always open to change later. The only reason I can think of, is that it's not staying in and no deal would be good enough for Remainers. What deal would be good enough for leavers who don't like it, I can't guess. I think many think leaving with no deal is better than leaving with May's. Some Remainers seem to think the same.

What deal do you think would be acceptable?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> What deal do you think would be acceptable?


None, we shouldn't be in this position anyway, we should have stayed in.


----------



## Snoringbear

Elles said:


> Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true, or fact. The vast majority of young people do a lot of things, it doesn't mean they're ignored. On the contrary, their elders often try to get them to see sense. Many older people voted the way they did because of the young. Including both leave and remain voters.
> 
> I'm getting sick and tired of this ageism and attacks on older people who are trying to do what they think best for a future that may not even be theirs, whether they voted Remain or leave. Do you think older people are really all so selfish they only vote for what might be best for themselves, but destroy young lives? It's ridiculous.


Not selfish at all https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html


----------



## Snoringbear

I remember some elderly leave voters gleefully saying they voted to leave as they remembered the halcyon rose tinted days of pre EU Britain. Didn’t have a triple locked pension back then so I’m sure they’ll be delighted when that goes and we can return to those days.


----------



## Elles

You people all talk to some strange folks.


----------



## Elles

I see Japan have negotiated a deal with the Eu that’s beneficial to them. Maybe now we’ll look at a Japan+ deal, instead of Norway.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I see Japan have negotiated a deal with the Eu that's beneficial to them. Maybe now we'll look at a Japan+ deal, instead of Norway.


It would certainly solve the Northern Ireland / Japan border problem!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> He's a leaver and always has been. She's a Remainer and always has been. A real leave government would have already left and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't like any deal, I'm not bothered if we end up with no deal, or staying in. I don't understand why Remainers are so against May's deal. It doesn't particularly settle anything, keeps us close enough to how it would be if we didn't leave and it's always open to change later. The only reason I can think of, is that it's not staying in and no deal would be good enough for Remainers. What deal would be good enough for leavers who don't like it, I can't guess. I think many think leaving with no deal is better than leaving with May's. Some Remainers seem to think the same.
> 
> What deal do you think would be acceptable?


He campaigned for remain, he said he voted remain - just like May. The labour party are far more 'remain' than the tory party,only a handful of labour MPs voted to leave. And when you said this -


Elles said:


> Brexit is currently mismanaged by a government who want to remain in the Eu, colluding with the Eu.


 I doubt very much you were thinking a labour government could do better, so were you implying the tory brexiteer MPs could get a better deal than 'remainer May' has?

So iyo. a 'real leave' government would have left already? Who would be in this government?

Remainers are against Mays deal because it's terrible - its as simple as that! I have tried to explain & provide evidence why, but if you choose not to understand there's not much I can do about that.. Why on earth would anyone throw away what we have for a disastrous deal like that? Utter madness. I thought we'd established previously that no deal - isnt a deal. Crashing out without a deal would be catastrophic for all but the disaster capitalists. Only selfish or totally misinformed people would support a no deal. I can't believe any informed person would choose to throw the country and the future of the young over the cliff.

Theres no wonder young people who have bothered to inform themselves feel betrayed by those who are wilfully ignoring the evidence. They aren't angry at those who voted leave, they're angry at those who are in denial despite the overwhelming evidence confirming brexit is a complete disaster.

The only way forward now is a peoples vote, or if there is no time then article 50 must be extended or revoked.



stockwellcat. said:


> That graph looks like something someone knocked up at home and put the source in at the bottom with no credible link to the source.


Well it isn't. EU membership is an absolute bargain - but the liars & they shysters have led people to believe otherwise. The cost of brexit on the otherhand will be astronomical. Its already costing us a fortune and we havent left yet!

(LINK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083

............................


----------



## sskmick

It seems to me that: -

Politicians don't seem to get that it isn't a party issue and should be working together, instead they all have their own opinions and agendas, tough - it was put to the people and the majority wanted to leave no matter what the consequences. 

To have another referendum to me means an end to democracy, or to look t it another way, what are we paying the politicians for, it was put to the people to make a decision and now there is talk of the deal or no deal being put to the people.

imo all party leaders should have sat down and discussed a plan once agreed albeit not necessarily agreed by the EU but would come close - and it should be passed by Parliament, I am of the opinion that no matter what deal is struck it will not be passed by Parliament.

Instead Brexit is just a tool to oust out a democratically elected government, I think the Queen should step in because we appear to have a set of traitors hell bent on trying to ruin this Country, and all we once stood and fought for, making us weak.

Theresa May has my full support as would any leader faced with this issue - go girl go.


----------



## noushka05

sskmick said:


> It seems to me that: -
> 
> Politicians don't seem to get that it isn't a party issue and should be working together, instead they all have their own opinions and agendas, tough - it was put to the people and the majority wanted to leave no matter what the consequences.
> 
> To have another referendum to me means an end to democracy, or to look t it another way, what are we paying the politicians for, it was put to the people to make a decision and now there is talk of the deal or no deal being put to the people.
> 
> imo all party leaders should have sat down and discussed a plan once agreed albeit not necessarily agreed by the EU but would come close - and it should be passed by Parliament, I am of the opinion that no matter what deal is struck it will not be passed by Parliament.
> 
> Instead Brexit is just a tool to oust out a democratically elected government, I think the Queen should step in because we appear to have a set of traitors hell bent on trying to ruin this Country, and all we once stood and fought for, making us weak.
> 
> Theresa May has my full support as would any leader faced with this issue - go girl go.


The selfish tories have ripped this country apart with their brexit.

Here are the facts @sskmick


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May was told it is a done deal by the EU Leaders and is not open for renegotiation last night. So how exactly is Corbyn going to renegotiate it if he got into power?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'll quote the tweet again
> 
> Young people who voted remain are not being ignored by older people who voted leave. The people, young and old and in between, who voted leave and who want to leave the Eu, do so because they believe it will be best for the future, including, probably even prioritising the young who will live in it. It's absolute rubbish to say otherwise. Not agreeing with someone's opinion, isn't ignoring them.


BBCQT last night. I really do feel for our young people.

_
"Why are young people being held to ransom by this vote that clearly hasn't turned out the way even people who were for it wanted it to be?_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073359865739923457
......................


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> BBCQT last night. I really do feel for our young people.
> 
> _
> "Why are young people being held to ransom by this vote that clearly hasn't turned out the way even people who were for it wanted it to be?_
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073359865739923457
> ......................


My favourite comment last night was this:


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> My favourite comment last night was this:
> 
> View attachment 381393


So what exactly did *you* vote for? Did all leavers vote for the same thing? Did they vote for Mays deal?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So what exactly did *you* vote for?


To leave the EU


> Did all leavers vote for the same thing?


Yes


> Did they vote for Mays deal?


We didn't vote for a deal. TM's deal was not on offer then nor was any other deal. We voted to leave the EU. Period. End of. If we left 2 years ago there would have been less damage.

Now back to TM's deal. You know my stance @noushka05 and that stance is reflected by many leave voters. That is to leave the EU. It is remainers that are annoyed because they didn't get their way and have continued Cameron's and Osborne's project fear campaign. It is remainers that are trying to overturn democracy as the vote in 2016 was legitimate and democractic. The EU are now saying Theresa May's deal or no deal. No deal is not as bad as remainers are making out to. But I suspect that you are going to reply with hyperbole and remainer rehtoric, pictures, videos and newsclippings like you usually do.


----------



## noushka05

If only every politician Caroline's honesty, courage, integrity and gravitas.

Femi: _I've been waiting for a politician to say exactly what needs to be said about this Brexit mess for two years!

THANK YOU Caroline Lucas! #BBCqt_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073388141451583488
...,,,,

.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="sskmick, post: 1065343634, member: 1052"

* go girl go.*[/QUOTE]

I wish she would, how about the South Pole!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If only every politician Caroline's honesty, courage, integrity and gravitas.
> 
> Femi: _I've been waiting for a politician to say exactly what needs to be said about this Brexit mess for two years!
> 
> THANK YOU Caroline Lucas! #BBCqt_
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073388141451583488
> ...,,,,
> 
> .


Corbyn's a liar to you know. He is promising to get into power claiming he can renegotiate the withdrawal deal. The EU have categorically said that the deal is not renegotiable at all. No Deal should have happened to years ago. No leave voter voted for a deal in 2016.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If the UK left 2 years ago after the vote to leave there would have been less damage as the process has carried on by the mainly remainer Government the more damage that has been done. The UK should have left in 2016 and the damage would have been minimal.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> To leave the EUYes We didn't vote for a deal. TM's deal was not on offer then nor was any other deal. We voted to leave the EU. Period. End of. If we left 2 years ago there would have been less damage.
> 
> Now back to TM's deal. You know my stance @noushka05 and that stance is reflected by many leave voters. That is to leave the EU. It is remainers that are annoyed because they didn't get their way and have continued Cameron's and Osborne's project fear campaign. It is remainers that are trying to overturn democracy as the vote in 2016 was legitimate and democractic. The EU are now saying Theresa May's deal or no deal. No deal is not as bad as remainers are making out to. But I suspect that you are going to reply with hyperbole and remainer rehtoric, pictures, videos and newsclippings like you usually do.


But you've given no detail. I know a lot of people possibly did vote to leap into the dark off a cliff. Thats why they dont like being confronted with evidence and dismiss it as 'project fear', 'fearmongering', 'hyperbole & fake news. But a lot of other people voted for more money for our NHS, so you can't possibly claim to know what every leaver voted for. A lot of people were fooled by that 'Brexit the Movie' video & the dark ads, by the lies & hatemongering they were drip fed by the right wing media. They didn't all share the same reasons for voting to leave.

Anyway, back to you. So you still want to leave without a deal, even though we know we will have food and medicine shortages. Even though it will be 'catastrophic' for our NHS. Even though our health & safety, standards & protections will be rolled back. Even though peace in NI will be put in jeopardy. Even though it will give more power to faceless corporate entities.

Facts & evidence & reasoned arguments aren't hyperbole even you like to pretend they are.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn's a liar to you know. He is promising to get into power claiming he can renegotiate the withdrawal deal. The EU have categorically said that the deal is not renegotiable at all. No Deal should have happened to years ago. No leave voter voted for a deal in 2016.


Corbyn, Corbyn, Corbyn, Labour, Labour, Labour, - & repeat.

Please watch the Caroline Lucas video,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> A lot of people were fooled by that 'Brexit the Movie' video & the dark ads, by the lies & hatemongering they were drip fed by the right wing media.


Christmas Baubles. It is insulting that you think leave voters didn't know what they were voting for. You are accussing those that voted leave of being thick and not being able to make their own minds up just because you and other remainers didn't like the result. The silent majority spoke in the 2016 referendum.


> Anyway, back to you.


 Oh yes please. Back to me. Let's see if you can twist what I am saying.


> So you still want to leave without a deal,


Correct.


> even though we know we will have food and medicine shortages.


There is already medicine shortages in other European countries who are in the EU, France for example:





I have attached a document that is a research paper into European drug shortages or you can click here and download the research paper: https://www.researchgate.net/public...en_market_attractiveness_and_cost_containment

The UK does really well sourcing medicines from in and out of the EU.


> Even though it will be 'catastrophic' for our NHS.


The NHS was already in the mess it was in well before the referendum. Other European countries have the same problems in there healthcare systems.
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2017/09/12/european-healthcare-systems-collapsing/#.XBNrkR6nw0M

*Europe's health systems on life support*
https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...t-drug-pricing-medicines-public-services/amp/



> Even though our safety, standards & protections will be rolled back.


Your crystal ball must have steam coming out of it with all the over time it is doing.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Christmas Baubles. It is insulting that you think leave voters didn't know what they were voting for. You are accussing those that voted leave of being thick and not being able to make their own minds up just because you and other remainers didn't like the result. The silent majority spoke in the 2016 referendum.


Its not insulting, and I havent accused anyone of being thick. Many of the reasons people said they were voting leave have been debunked as lies. Have a look at some of *your* old posts

Plenty of people have changed their minds because they feel they have been misled etc. https://twitter.com/RemainerNow












stockwellcat. said:


> There is already medicine shortages in other European countries who are in the EU.


And no deal will create shortages here. Why do you think the government have told NHS Trusts to stockpile? How long do you think stockpiles will last?



stockwellcat. said:


> The NHS was already in the mess it was in well before the referendum


It is already in mess thanks to the tories - and brexit will likely finish it off altogether,



stockwellcat. said:


> Your crystal ball must had steam coming out of it with all the over time it is doing.


I don't need a crystal ball. Brexit was always about ridding us of EU red tape & regulations which protect us. If we do a deal with the USA we will be forced to harmonise our standards with their crap standards.



stockwellcat. said:


> If you say so.


Well it is irrefutable


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 I have provided you with enough to chew on above. Please read my edit big post above. I made sure I provided you with alot of the information you requested on topics you highlighted.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Medicine Shortages are a global issue @noushka05 again the UK does quite well sourcing drugs from inside and outside of the EU. That is a solid fact. Again read this research paper: https://www.researchgate.net/public...en_market_attractiveness_and_cost_containment


Yes there are global shortages but it will be the aftermath of a no deal which will adversely affect us, or are are you going to just play all this down as 'hyperbole'?

_8 health providers have warned of medicine shortages in the event of a no-deal Brexit: "we do not believe that the current medicine supply plans will suffice, and we will have widespread shortages if we do not respond urgently_

https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wp...8/11/Letter-to-The-Rt-Hon-Matt-Hancock-MP.pdf

_
AstraZenica estimates its Brexit-related costs at £40 million for duplicate drug testing requirements, and building up product stockpiles_. https://www.fiercepharma.com/astraz...-it-duplicates-drug-testing-boosts-stockpiles

Pfizer - $100 million on Brexit prep_:"Pfizer's preparations are well advanced to make the changes necessary to meet EU legal requirements after the U.K. is no longer a member state, especially in the regulatory, manufacturing and supply chain areas

,,,_


----------



## noushka05

How anyone 'could' feel pity for her is beyond me.

*Don't pity May. Her immigration obsession helped get us into this mess*
*Her policies as home secretary contributed to a toxic climate at the time of the referendum*


https://www.theguardian.com/comment...theresa-may-immigration-mess?CMP=share_btn_tw



*







*


----------



## Elles

They (companies, governments etc) were going to have to do various things if we voted leave. Obviously things aren’t going to be the same. Billion dollar pharma might have to spend a few quid in order to carry on selling to the U.K. why is that even news? They’ve had 2 years to prepare for it, longer if you count the time leading up to the referendum. 

Our government and elected MPs gave the people the choice, the people chose leave. Now it’s up to them to deal with it. If they thought it an impossible task that would plunge the U.K. into the dark ages and cause incredible hardship and harm, it was totally irresponsible of every MP who voted in favour of holding a referendum. 

However they did vote to have one and however much some might regret it, they are the ones who should have come together to deliver on it and make it as smooth an exit as possible, instead of a bunch of in fighting being constantly reported.

They said they didn’t agree with the backstop part of May’s deal, so she has gone back to the Eu to get reassurances over their misgivings. If she manages that, they should vote it through, instead of trying to get a GE, or oust her in favour of themselves. 

The only way we could really have a second vote imo would be to have a 3 way vote, as shown in the link to the poll last week. Corbyn wants a general election instead, so that we can be given a fourth option, his own deal with the Eu, so we’ll have to see if he tries to force a vote of no confidence in the government. It’s being rumoured that it will happen in January.

Even if we do end up staying in the Eu this time, it will not be an end to it. Too many people want to leave and I can see future generations saying we were wrong to stay in, we were weak and wanting out, forcing it later.

We needed to make temporary arrangements to keep things running. I don’t know why there’s so much fuss being made over it. There are politicians who believe (know?) we can leave the Eu and be successful outside of it, including politicians who voted to remain. Are they all wrong?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Now it's up to them to deal with it. If they thought it an impossible task that would plunge the U.K. into the dark ages and cause incredible hardship and harm, it was totally irresponsible of every MP who voted in favour of holding a referendum


You said it. It was totally irresponsible because *it will* cause incredible harm & hardship. This country will tear itself apart. Well done tories!

So glad we avoided that chaos


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> We needed to make temporary arrangements to keep things running. I don't know why there's so much fuss being made over it. There are politicians who believe (know?) we can leave the Eu and be successful outside of it, including politicians who voted to remain. Are they all wrong?


Who are these politicians?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I can see future generations saying we were wrong to stay in, we were weak and wanting out, forcing it later.


Really? How strange. I think they'll look back and see it for what it is - a complete and utter disaster!. I hope if one good thing comes out of it, if we leave, is that our demise will serve as a warning to other countries thinking of leaving the EU.


----------



## Elles

Erm, can I remind you that it wasn't just Tories who voted for us to have the referendum. They were told it would be binding before they were asked if we should have one. They were also told by the government and PM at the time that leaving the Eu would be a mistake. They still voted in favour of a referendum. Probably thinking it will be fine and we'll vote to stay in. Irresponsible if they genuinely believe what they say about it.



noushka05 said:


> Who are these politicians?


Jeremy Corbyn for one, but any Remainer in favour of May's deal, or an alternative deal must think that it will be fine outside of the Eu.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Really? How strange. I think they'll look back and see it for what it is - a complete and utter disaster!. I hope if one good thing comes out of our demise, if we leave, is that it will serve as a warning to other countries thinking of leaving the EU.


Dissatisfied people will always want change and the powers that be and media will continue to blame the Eu for it, saying we're better prepared and stronger to promote leaving the Eu in the future. The young of today and tomorrow will believe they are better, stronger and wiser than their forebears and more able to make a success of leaving the Eu. Hence, I don't think for one minute it will be an end to it if we stay in.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Erm, can I remind you that it wasn't just Tories who voted for us to have the referendum. They were told it would be binding before they were asked if we should have one. They were also told by the government and PM at the time that leaving the Eu would be a mistake. They still voted in favour of a referendum. Probably thinking it will be fine and we'll vote to stay in. Irresponsible if they genuinely believe what they say about it.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn for one, but any Remainer in favour of May's deal, or an alternative deal must think that it will be fine outside of the Eu.


Cameron promised the referendum to sate euro skeptics in his party. As usual the tories put party before country.

Can you just provide links of all these politicians? The EU say they aren't up for anymore negotiation whatever Corbyn thinks so its a moot point. Its Mays deal or remain - or no deal. And Corbyn says Mays deal is terrible & no deal is not an option! So which other MPs are you talking about?


----------



## noushka05

LOL @ Chunky :Hilarious
_EU Humiliation Theresa May on her knees begging to jean Claude Juncker please sir!! The Torie_s!!!






















_where's the spirit of Thatcher the Belgrano??_


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> There are politicians who believe (know?) we can leave the Eu and be successful outside of it, including politicians who voted to remain. Are they all wrong?


I guess it depends on the subjective definition of "successful". I don't think we'll see anything disastrous in the long term. If we leave with No Deal then the short term will surely be very difficult, and especially for those who get pushed over the edge.

But - you can probably guess what I'm going to say - if you increase the costs / bureaucracy of doing business, then the amount of business you do will contract compared to what it would otherwise be. There will be fewer jobs than there otherwise would be, and they will be lower paid than they otherwise would be. There will be less tax revenue for the government to spend on public services.

Membership of the EU facilitates business. We may be 'successful' outside it, but simple logic - and there's a lot more than just the above paragraph - makes it as certain as economics can be that we won't be as successful as if we were a part of it.


----------



## kimthecat

There's been a lot of anger on tv today directed at "the elderly " being blamed for Brexit , etc etc .
What next ? Being dragged out onto the streets and put in concentration camps !
I feel the "elderly" are being scraped goated , younger people voted for leave too , an all the people who didn't bother to vote are responsible too.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Cameron promised the referendum to sate euro skeptics in his party. As usual the tories put party before country.
> 
> Can you just provide links of all these politicians? The EU say they aren't up for anymore negotiation whatever Corbyn thinks so its a moot point. Its Mays deal or remain - or no deal. And Corbyn says Mays deal is terrible & no deal is not an option! So which other MPs are you talking about?


Any who have publically supported TM's deal and any who support Jeremy Corbyn's desire for a second referendum and his renegotiation. Or perhaps none of the Labour Party support JC's ambition and they need to elect another leader.

If they support Theresa May's deal, or negotiating further, or any other version of leaving the Eu, they can't think it would be that bad can they?

The referendum was put to a vote. Even Caroline voted in favour of holding it. The tories couldn't have brought it about on their own and certainly couldn't have promised it as binding without the support of the house. So are you saying that politicians who agreed to the referendum put themselves before country too?


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> There's been a lot of anger on tv today directed at "the elderly " being blamed for Brexit , etc etc .
> What next ? Being dragged out onto the streets and put in concentration camps !
> I feel the "elderly" are being scraped goated , younger people voted for leave too , an all the people who didn't bother to vote are responsible too.


Brexit should be a good thing and they should be being praised for it. If it's not a good thing, that's no one's fault other than those who are leading us out and we don't know yet that it isn't a good thing.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> He's a leaver and always has been. She's a Remainer and always has been. A real leave government would have already left and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't like any deal, I'm not bothered if we end up with no deal, or staying in. I don't understand why Remainers are so against May's deal. It doesn't particularly settle anything, keeps us close enough to how it would be if we didn't leave and it's always open to change later. The only reason I can think of, is that it's not staying in and no deal would be good enough for Remainers. What deal would be good enough for leavers who don't like it, I can't guess. I think many think leaving with no deal is better than leaving with May's. Some Remainers seem to think the same.


Agree re Corbyn, but May wants to dominate the EU with her own rules such as with FOM. She's unilaterally going to take that from us and you ask why Remainers won't back her plan?!

If there's a single advantage it only delays the inevitable until the end of the transition period. That just extends the uncertainty for so many for longer. Guess it'll allow time to build border controls at the Irish border and more time for EU citizens to voluntarily leave before facing deportation.

Of course, a lot can happen between now and then, but May is most likely to still be leader by the end of the transition period and into and beyond the next GE.

May said she'll resign before the next GE. Does anyone believe that?!


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Bored:Bored:Bored everyone is just going over and over the same old arguments, nothing new is been said, and nothing new is going a happen, what is done is done. What we need is May to have the Meaniful Vote in Parliament, then you can start arguing again.


----------



## Elles

Regarding Jeremy, much though I don’t like him... The media has never been kind to him, so why are we so quick to believe them? Corbyn talks to European leaders and the Eu, maybe he knows something we don’t. Maybe he can negotiate a different deal. Maybe it’s not blind ambition that leads him to want to be PM, but the real belief based on evidence that he can lead the country to a better deal outside of the Eu and Brexit is a good idea? 

Just putting it out there.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> There's been a lot of anger on tv today directed at "the elderly " being blamed for Brexit , etc etc .
> What next ? Being dragged out onto the streets and put in concentration camps !


Probably more like something like what happens in the film 'Logan's Run'



kimthecat said:


> an all the people who didn't bother to vote are responsible too.


Absolutely, but that seems to be conveniently glossed over whilst all the 'young' are whinging that they aren't being listened to.


----------



## KittenKong

Good










https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ouncil-brussels-vote-parliament-a8682951.html


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *Brexit should be a good thing *and they should be being praised for it. If it's not a good thing, that's no one's fault other than those who are leading us out and we don't know yet that it isn't a good thing.


How so, do you think?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...gal-lifeline-to-help-may-sell-her-brexit-deal

*EU to Consider Legal Lifeline to Help May Sell Her Brexit Deal*


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> How so, do you think?


It should have caused the Eu to implode and something better to rise from the ashes. 

Part of the problem they say is Theresa May's red lines. This is the best the Eu can come up with given her absolutes. I presume Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't have the same red lines and absolutes, so maybe he can negotiate a better deal.


----------



## KittenKong

sskmick said:


> It seems to me that: -
> 
> Politicians don't seem to get that it isn't a party issue and should be working together, instead they all have their own opinions and agendas, tough - it was put to the people and the majority wanted to leave no matter what the consequences.
> 
> To have another referendum to me means an end to democracy, or to look t it another way, what are we paying the politicians for, it was put to the people to make a decision and now there is talk of the deal or no deal being put to the people.
> 
> imo all party leaders should have sat down and discussed a plan once agreed albeit not necessarily agreed by the EU but would come close - and it should be passed by Parliament, I am of the opinion that no matter what deal is struck it will not be passed by Parliament.
> 
> Instead Brexit is just a tool to oust out a democratically elected government, I think the Queen should step in because we appear to have a set of traitors hell bent on trying to ruin this Country, and all we once stood and fought for, making us weak.
> 
> Theresa May has my full support as would any leader faced with this issue - go girl go.


Lots of your comments make no sense to me at all.

With your argument against another "referendum" being undemocratic, you might as well argue General Elections are as the result might differ from the last one.

Nothing to stop Leave supporters voting for Leave again.

Most don't like May's deal as she's taken it on herself to decide what leave voters voted for. In addition she's removing FOM rights as, " She knows what's best for us"

I've yet to hear of any genuine support for it regardless of how people voted in the 2016 referendum. For her Brexit deal to pass would certainly be undemocratic therefore.

Nothing in the 2016 referendum to suggest a PM's personal plan to leave must be adhered to!

As for the rest of your post, I'd better leave it here...


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> Probably more like something like what happens in the film 'Logan's Run'
> 
> Absolutely, but that seems to be conveniently glossed over whilst all the 'young' are whinging that they aren't being listened to.


Half the time it's not the young whinging, it's the old who voted remain using the young for their own whinges. Half the young are down the clubs getting drunk, couldn't care less about brexit and didn't bother voting first time around. University students only give it a passing thought, because their professors get Eu grants and told them to.

The alternative to old bashing, young bashing.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> :Bored:Bored:Bored everyone is just going over and over the same old arguments, nothing new is been said, and nothing new is going a happen, what is done is done. What we need is May to have the Meaniful Vote in Parliament, then you can start arguing again.


 I know . I think we are arguing for arguments sake 
Im only here cos I dont get out enough


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Half the time it's not the young whinging, it's the old who voted remain using the young for their own whinges. Half the young are down the clubs getting drunk, couldn't care less about brexit and didn't bother voting first time around. University students only give it a passing thought, because their professors get Eu grants and told them to.
> 
> The alternative to old bashing, young bashing.


It's a good sport!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> There's been a lot of anger on tv today directed at "the elderly " being blamed for Brexit , etc etc .
> What next ? Being dragged out onto the streets and put in concentration camps !
> I feel the "elderly" are being scraped goated , younger people voted for leave too , an all the people who didn't bother to vote are responsible too.


It's another sad and unfortunate consequences of how the referendum has divided not only people but generations as well.

But you're absolutely right.


----------



## Jesthar

Hmm, Google are on the move then:


----------



## Magyarmum

CNN's Richard Quest from Quest Means Business


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073311535651422208

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073326165253713926


----------



## Elles

Won’t let me look at it. I don’t have twitter and it seems you’re limited unless you sign up to it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Won't let me look at it. I don't have twitter and it seems you're limited unless you sign up to it.


I don't have twitter either and have no intention of signing up to it but I've never never had a problem finding something on it.

Try googling Quest Means Business (@questCNN) Twitter


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Hmm, Google are on the move then:
> 
> View attachment 381442


Google Europe is moving on the 22nd January 2019 to Ireland but Google UK is based in London isn't. There choice if they want to move Google Europe to Ireland as Google UK won't be affected.

*Google Ireland takes the reins for European services*
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-ireland-takes-the-reins-for-european-services-1.3730721?mode=amp

*Google will shift control of European data from U.S. to Ireland to aid GDPR compliance*
https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/12/...a-from-u-s-to-ireland-to-aid-gdpr-compliance/


----------



## KittenKong

This is getting beyond embarrassing now.

Losing her temper at any criticism of her plan?

What a liability.

BBC source.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Google Europe is moving on the 22nd January 2019 to Ireland but Google UK is based in London isn't. There choice if they want to move Google Europe to Ireland as Google UK won't be affected.
> 
> *Google Ireland takes the reins for European services*
> https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-ireland-takes-the-reins-for-european-services-1.3730721?mode=amp


If that's the case I'm sure future Google searches done in the UK will be restricted to UK only websites personally approved by Theresa May!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> If that's the case I'm sure future Google searches done in the UK will be restricted to UK only websites personally approved by Theresa May!


We'll have to Bing instead


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This is getting beyond embarrassing now.
> 
> BBC source.
> 
> View attachment 381475


Breaking News. Junker has said it is in the overwhelming interests of both the UK and EU citizens to get this deal over the line and has said that the EU Leaders will provide more clarity to get the deal through the UK Parliament in the next few days.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> We'll have to Bing instead


Or there's yahoo.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Google Europe is moving on the 22nd January 2019 to Ireland but Google UK is based in London isn't. There choice if they want to move Google Europe to Ireland as Google UK won't be affected.
> 
> *Google Ireland takes the reins for European services*
> https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-ireland-takes-the-reins-for-european-services-1.3730721?mode=amp


Most of the big internet players use Ireland for the tax breaks, plus it's cheaper to operate there. The Eu (and the U.K.) have promised to pay more attention to the giants like google, Facebook and Amazon, so they hopefully won't be able to get away with paying next to nothing in taxes in the future, but Ireland makes sense if they want to pay as little as possible. eBay already has their European HQ in Ireland.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Most of the big internet players use Ireland for the tax breaks, plus it's cheaper to operate there. The Eu (and the U.K.) have promised to pay more attention to the giants like google, Facebook and Amazon, so they hopefully won't be able to get away with paying next to nothing in taxes in the future, but Ireland makes sense if they want to pay as little as possible. eBay already has their European HQ in Ireland.


*Ireland is the world's biggest corporate 'tax haven', say academics*
Ireland is the biggest "tax haven" in the world used by multinationals to shelter profits, according to a new study by economists from the United States and Denmark.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...t-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> If that's the case I'm sure future Google searches done in the UK will be restricted to UK only websites personally approved by Theresa May!


Surely this move is due to the new EU article 13 Law and not Brexit??????

https://www.alphr.com/politics/1009470/article-13-EU-what-is-it-copyright

Perhaps as you're such a pessimist you should start thinking of moving to Russia? I think somewhere like Vladivostok would suit you perfectly!


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat. I assume they mean the Rebublic of Ireland. They were going to build a super duper new HQ in London a couple of years ago , I dont know if it went ahead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat. I assume they mean the Rebublic of Ireland. They were going to build a super duper new HQ in London a couple of years ago , I dont know if it went ahead.


Yes they mean Republic of Ireland.

Latest on Google and Facebook taking residence in London
https://www.dezeen.com/2018/02/05/facebook-london-headquarters-offices-kings-cross/

There is 3 offices in London.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I think we are arguing for arguments sake


 . . . which is why previous ''Brexit'' threads have been dumped - ''going round in circles'' being the reason given.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> . . . which is why previous ''Brexit'' threads have been dumped - ''going round in circles'' being the reason given.


Also , it did get nasty . I dont read all the posts but I feel this thread isnt as bad as previous ones .


----------



## Magyarmum

VIEWPOINT : FROM THE WEEK

Quote of the day
*"To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter."*
_A senior EU source on why Brussels has declined to help Theresa May sell her Brexit deal to parliament._


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit: No visa but Britons will pay €7 (£6.30) to travel to EU countries for 3 years.*

https:///www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46564884

Deal. That is cheaper than what it costs at the moment to travel to any EU Country. I like it cheap travel for all 61 countries not in the EU to travel to the EU. The Eurotunnel at the moment for 2 people in a car and a cat return costs £205 if you book in advance. £6.30 will be really cheap to travel to an EU country. See it isn't all that bad leaving the EU. £6.30 is a fixed price for 3 years as well and you only have to pay it once for 3 years. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Vote for the People!!!

Surely those who did not go feeling they didn’t know what they are voting for now know more? 

Those who felt it was not important now may realise it is.
Those who couldn’t vote as too young are adults now!!!

Those who got rights to vote during this time !!!
Plus doable postal vote!
My son wants his vote!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Good. 
She insists she can dictate to the EU their business.

Let's hope they go one further and withdraw the deal.

Would serve her right.

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018...e-matters-worse-why-cant-parliament-vote-now/


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brexit: No visa but Britons will pay €7 (£6.30) to travel to EU countries for 3 years.*
> 
> https:///www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46564884


So basically one of the reasons it was said that people voted brexit was the weak border controls of the Eu countries and the willingness to tell member countries to take in refugees with no choice in it, especially if you were the first country they landed, eg Italy or Greece and the fear of terrorism. All reasons that people were told were foolish and racism etc. That reason is now being addressed by the Eu with more controls and this ETIAS travel document for people from outside of the Eu.

If they keep it up, the Eu will be a reason for hardline brexiteers to stay and Remainers to want to leave it lol.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brexit: No visa but Britons will pay €7 (£6.30) to travel to EU countries for 3 years.*
> 
> https:///www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46564884
> 
> Deal. That is cheaper than what it costs at the moment to travel to any EU Country. I like it cheap travel for all 61 countries not in the EU to travel to the EU. The Eurotunnel at the moment for 2 people in a car and a cat return costs £205 if you book in advance. £6.30 will be really cheap to travel to an EU country. See it isn't all that bad leaving the EU. £6.30 is a fixed price for 3 years as well and you only have to pay it once for 3 years. :Hilarious


You might find it funny, but this isn't going to affect you with your Irish Passport is it.

It is bad as my automatic right to retire abroad has been taken away.

NOTHING will compensate for that.


----------



## Elles

Maybe people with dual nationality who will have an Eu passport whether Britain leaves or not shouldn’t be given a vote. They can’t really leave like the rest of us will have to.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The big worry now is also the pensions for those who worked in different EU countries - how wil those years count? Will EU countries recognise years of work in UK and vice versa?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Maybe people with dual nationality who will have an Eu passport whether Britain leaves or not shouldn't be given a vote. They can't really leave like the rest of us will have to.


Not sure if that will be legal. That will put those people as second class citizens " not British enough ". But Britain can change law and allow only one passport of course. Like China for example.
It is getting better and better.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Maybe people with dual nationality who will have an Eu passport whether Britain leaves or not shouldn't be given a vote. They can't really leave like the rest of us will have to.


Excuse me. My mother was British and my father Northern Irish. Oh wait a minute he was British to (He served in the British Army between 1973 to 1984 in the R.E.M.E.) and Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Makes me no less British than you or @KittenKong. So what if I am entitled to an Irish Passport like everyone born in Northern Ireland. I chose to be British like my dad did before me. We took up British Passports and not Irish ones. @KittenKong seriously give up mate you are only embarrassing yourself.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> But Britain can change law and allow only one passport of course. Like China for example.
> It is getting better and better.


And Germany and Netherlands. Try looking closer to home. Many European Countries do not allow dual nationalship if you want to become a citizen of that country.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Excuse me. My mother was British and my father Northern Irish. Oh wait a minute he was British to (He served in the British Army between 1973 to 1984 in the R.E.M.E.) and Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Makes me no less British than you or @KittenKong. So what if I am entitled to an Irish Passport like everyone born in Northern Ireland. I chose to be British like my dad did before me. We took up British Passports and not Irish ones. @KittenKong serious give up mate you are only embarrasing yourself.


Ahem, you are the one who bragged about your entitlement to an Irish passport. It doesn't look good when you troll these pages insisting things will be ok as we have to pay for something we once took for granted without the automatic right to retire to another country being taken from us when it doesn't apply to you personally.

If you want to get personal, well you're not worth getting a ban over so I'll leave it there and keep you on ignore.

I have nothing to be embarrassed about. I didn't vote for any of this mess.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I have nothing to be embarrassed about. I didn't vote for any of this mess.


Nor did I. I didn't vote for a remainer PM who made this mess. The UK should have left 24 months ago.

As much as it is hard for you to read, yes a remainer PM made this mess.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, you are the one who bragged about your entitlement to an Irish passport. It doesn't look good when you troll these pages insisting things will be ok as we have to pay for something we once took for granted without the automatic right to retire to another country being taken from us when it doesn't apply to you personally.


I have every right to be a British Citizen just as much as you. I was born in the United Kingdom. My mother was also British and so was my dad, grandparents, great grandparents and great, great grandparents etc.


> If you want to get personal, well you're not worth getting a ban over so I'll leave it there.


You got personal not me. So yes best you do leave it there.


----------



## Elles

You are a British Citizen too, but you have been given the right to vote on whether I leave the Eu, not whether you do. If Britain leaves the Eu and there’s an end to free movement and other Eu positions, whether viewed as a benefit or not, it won’t affect you. It will actually affect you less than the British expats who aren’t allowed to vote. So although I usually agree with a lot of what you’re saying and agree with brexiteers on many issues, on this I can’t agree. 

Someone who will not be affected by brexit due to their dual (Eu/Europe) nationality, imho, should not be given a vote on Eu membership referendums in the U.K. You’re voting to kick a country out of a club you’re staying in yourself. 

I would guess that the majority of dual holders will vote to remain in the Eu, but that’s beside the point for me. 

If I had dual nationality I wouldn’t vote on brexit personally.


----------



## KittenKong

From the BBC comments section on the matter:


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> You are a British Citizen too, but you have been given the right to vote on whether I leave the Eu, not whether you do. If Britain leaves the Eu and there's an end to free movement and other Eu positions, whether viewed as a benefit or not, it won't affect you. It will actually affect you less than the British expats who aren't allowed to vote. So although I usually agree with a lot of what you're saying and agree with brexiteers on many issues, on this I can't agree.
> 
> Someone who will not be affected by brexit due to their dual (Eu/Europe) nationality, imho, should not be given a vote on Eu membership referendums in the U.K. You're voting to kick a country out of a club you're staying in yourself.
> 
> I would guess that the majority of dual holders will vote to remain in the Eu, but that's beside the point for me.
> 
> If I had dual nationality I wouldn't vote on brexit personally.


Meet the Brexiteers that are also dual nationals:-

*Gisela Stuart* - Born in West Germany was one of the Brexiteers and a Labour Party MP.

Alexander *Boris* de Pfeffel *Johnson* - born New York City, U.S. (Known as Boris Johnson)

*Nigel Farage* - Born in Kent married to Kirsten Mehr (West German) - Nigel Farage is entitled to a German Passport.


----------



## Elles

All people who can try to persuade us to leave the Eu, even promote the downfall of the Eu, but who shouldn’t have voted on the referendum themselves. Unless they renounce their dual nationality and the benefits that can bring. If we leave the Eu, I’m of the understanding that you couldn’t have Brit and German dual? I could be wrong though.


----------



## KittenKong

And on Twitter:


----------



## Elles

Well whoever posted that needs to calm down before they burst a blood vessel. Free movement is no one’s birthright, it’s down to politicians.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Well whoever posted that needs to calm down before they burst a blood vessel. Free movement is no one's birthright, it's down to politicians.


I understand her point of view, she was born an EU citizen, this in itself entitles her to FOM.

It's UK politicians who are taking that right away from her not only FOM rights but EU citizenship too.

She has every right to be angry.

I, for one, am too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> All people who can try to persuade us to leave the Eu, even promote the downfall of the Eu, but who shouldn't have voted on the referendum themselves. Unless they renounce their dual nationality and the benefits that can bring. If we leave the Eu, I'm of the understanding that you couldn't have Brit and German dual? I could be wrong though.


I am not dual national though. I was born British in the United Kingdom. So I have nothing to renounce and had every right to vote the way I wanted to in the referedum. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. My mum was born in Reading, Berkshire, England, United Kingdom. I have never lived in Ireland, ever.


----------



## KittenKong

The damn cheek of it.

Will he or won't he? That's the question.

If May swallows her pride and gives Corbyn a share in the proportion of blame, sorry assist her with her Brexit I have a horrible feeling he might do

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...servative-eu-summit-nick-boles-a8683921.html#


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The damn cheek of it.
> 
> Will he or won't he? That's the question.
> 
> If May swallows her pride and gives Corbyn a share in the proportion of blame, sorry assist her with her Brexit I have a horrible feeling he might do
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...servative-eu-summit-nick-boles-a8683921.html#
> 
> View attachment 381608


So how is working with Corbyn going to make the EU Leaders change their mind?

The EU Leaders have been clear it is this Withdrawal Agreement or no deal and this Withdrawal Agreement is not negotiable.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> All people who can try to persuade us to leave the Eu, even promote the downfall of the Eu, but who shouldn't have voted on the referendum themselves. Unless they renounce their dual nationality and the benefits that can bring. If we leave the Eu, I'm of the understanding that you couldn't have Brit and German dual? I could be wrong though.


You are allowed dual Brit/German nationality. Here is the list of which EU countries allow/don't allow dual citizenship

https://www.mcgillandco.co.uk/blog/...for-dual-citizenship-with-the-uk-updated.html


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> If May swallows her pride and gives Corbyn a share in the proportion of blame, sorry assist her with her Brexit I have a horrible feeling he might do


Can anyone tell me just one idea that Corbyn has had that might make a difference?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You are allowed dual Brit/German nationality. Here is the list of which EU countries allow/don't allow dual citizenship
> 
> https://www.mcgillandco.co.uk/blog/...for-dual-citizenship-with-the-uk-updated.html


Germany changed it recently.
https://dw.com/en/dual-citizenship-granted-to-most-naturalized-germans/a-45030118

German law generally discourages dual citizenship.


----------



## Magyarmum

For all those getting their knickers in a twist this is the European Commissions directive about EU citizen rights after Brexit

https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/services/your-rights/Brexit_en


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Can anyone tell me just one idea that Corbyn has had that might make a difference?


No.

Since the referendum in which he campaigned so halfheartedly, he has seen this as nothing more than a chance to bring down the Tory government. Hence Labour's 'six tests' which never had the remotest chance of being met.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> The big worry now is also the pensions for those who worked in different EU countries - how wil those years count? Will EU countries recognise years of work in UK and vice versa?


https://www.expatnetwork.com/brexit-expat-pensions/


----------



## Arnie83

From The Times;

*Cabinet cabal ready to swing behind second referendum*

Five cabinet ministers are leaning towards a second referendum if MPs cannot agree a Brexit plan in the next month, _The Times_ understands.

David Lidington, David Gauke, Amber Rudd, Philip Hammond and Greg Clark are understood to have stepped up discussions over whether to send the issue back to the public.

All five cabinet ministers, who are loyal to Mrs May, are not ready to commit to a second referendum and could still embrace an alternative deal to leave the EU.

They want the prime minister to reschedule the meaningful vote on her deal as early as possible, however, possibly in the week beginning January 14, to allow MPs time to vote on alternative options. If MPs fail to reach a consensus, then the ministers could back a second public vote.​
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...y-to-swing-behind-second-referendum-s983jmtxl

It's difficult to see what alternative the Commons might approve.

The "Norway" option is closer to Remain than May's deal, (and Norway aren't impressed with the idea anyway).

Canada + doesn't solve the Irish border problem, it has limited scope, it took 7 years to negotiate, and the Brexiteers' understanding of '+' is not the same as the EU's

No Deal is bottom of the list and stands no chance of Parliamentary approval.

A new referendum is beginning to look like the favourite option. But what options should be on the ballot ... ?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> A new referendum is beginning to look like the favourite option. But what options should be on the ballot ... ?


Seeing May's deal is already dead in the water the options can only be cancel A50 and remain or leave with no deal.

If people are stupid enough to vote for the latter at least it'll be on warnings of stockpiling, job losses, etc. etc. and not bare faced lies such as £350m for the NHS and the threat of Turkey's population "invading" the UK that "won" the vote last time.

And they should be provisions to allow Scotland to hold an independence referendum and for Ireland to unify with the republic, (+ Wales too if they vote remain this time), should these countries back staying in the EU decisively again.


----------



## Britt

Every time I see Mrs May on TV I think of Margaret Thatcher


----------



## Arnie83

Britt said:


> Every time I see Mrs May on TV I think of Margaret Thatcher


That's exactly what Mrs May thinks of just before every time she goes on TV!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Seeing May's deal is already dead in the water *the options can only be cancel A50 and remain or leave with no deal.*
> 
> If people are stupid enough to vote for the latter at least it'll be on warnings of stockpiling, job losses, etc. etc. and not bare faced lies such as £350m for the NHS and the threat of Turkey's population "invading" the UK that "won" the vote last time.
> 
> And they should be provisions to allow Scotland to hold an independence referendum and for Ireland to unify with the republic, (+ Wales too if they vote remain this time), should these countries back staying in the EU decisively again.


It's difficult isn't it, because Parliament are even less in favour of No Deal than they are of May's Deal. If there is a Commons vote on ruling out No Deal - and there very well might be - can they put it on the ballot? It would be very irresponsible for them to do so, but there has to be at least some alternative to cancelling the whole throwback idea.

It's going to get interesting; I just wish it wasn't so important so I could enjoy watching it happen!


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Nor did I. I didn't vote for a remainer PM who made this mess. The UK should have left 24 months ago.
> 
> As much as it is hard for you to read, yes a remainer PM made this mess.


Actually, technically yes, you did vote for this. You voted leave, and that was the only thing specified on the ballot paper. What leave would look like was _not_ specified.

It turns out this is what leave looks like. Which might not look anything like what you actually had in mind when you voted, true, but that's a different thing entirely, and the risk you and the 52% took in ticking the Leave box.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Actually, technically yes, you did vote for this. You voted leave, and that was the only thing specified on the ballot paper. What leave would look like was _not_ specified.
> 
> It turns out this is what leave looks like. Which might not look anything like what you actually had in mind when you voted, true, but that's a different thing entirely, and the risk you and the 52% took in ticking the Leave box.


All options are still on the table including a clean break brexit better known as no deal which will happen if MP's vote down the Withdrawal Agreement. The EU Leaders and Commission have repeatedly said this.

Note: I did not vote remainer May into power so no I did not vote for her deal. I have always said a Brexiteer should have been in charge of Brexit. Remainer May is trying to deliver a half hearted brexit no leave voter voted for this.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I have always said a Brexiteer should have been in charge of Brexit. Remainer May is trying to deliver a half hearted brexit no leave voter voted for this.


Well the tories knew that when they voted her as PM and then the country when they put her back.


----------



## rona

Britt said:


> Every time I see Mrs May on TV I think of Margaret Thatcher


She doesn't hold a candle to Mrs T. She was a force to be reckoned with, she would not have kowtowed to all and sundry


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> As much as it is hard for you to read, yes a remainer PM made this mess.


True: Cameron wisely bolted after saying (honestly for once) that he was not the right person for the job (he didn't think he could steer the country in the direction it needed to go, or words to that effect). Having said that, it came as a surprise (shock, even) when another remainer (TM) took the job that he had resigned from.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> She doesn't hold a candle to Mrs T. She was a force to be reckoned with, she would not have kowtowed to all and sundry


and EU wouldn't have kowtowed to that evil women either.


----------



## Arnie83

Some might not like this, but it seems quite accurate to me.

https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...ng-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/

"The promise of Brexit at the time it narrowly passed in a national referendum in June of 2016 was that it was a way for Britain to feel big again - no longer hectored by the EU bureaucracy in Brussels, no longer treated as just one of 28 members in an unwieldy confederacy."​
Of course it doesn't accurately reflect the mindset of all those who voted Leave - far from it - but I think it is significant, and it has been reflected in the reaction to the inevitable course of the negotiations. 27 nations, including some very big players, v. 1 is not going to result in the latter getting everything it wants, any more than a post-Brexit trade deal with Trump's USA is likely to be in our favour. I just hope people realise that before they vote again.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> and EU wouldn't have kowtowed to that evil women either.


We would never have been in that position had Mrs T been in office.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> We would never have been in that position had Mrs T been in office.


No a worse one.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Some might not like this, but it seems quite accurate to me.
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...ng-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/
> 
> "The promise of Brexit at the time it narrowly passed in a national referendum in June of 2016 was that it was a way for Britain to feel big again - no longer hectored by the EU bureaucracy in Brussels, no longer treated as just one of 28 members in an unwieldy confederacy."​
> Of course it doesn't accurately reflect the mindset of all those who voted Leave - far from it - but I think it is significant, and it has been reflected in the reaction to the inevitable course of the negotiations. 27 nations, including some very big players, v. 1 is not going to result in the latter getting everything it wants, any more than a post-Brexit trade deal with Trump's USA is likely to be in our favour. I just hope people realise that before they vote again.


On the other hand the EU isn't as marvellous as it's set out to be!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/...morning-briefing-europe&nlid=5009889620181212


----------



## stockwellcat.

The elites are trying to con us. We must dispel the myth that we need a deal with the EU. We don't. A deal is a trap to keep us in the EU, so the food tariffs continue to weigh on shoppers - and are sent to Brussels to feed the fat cats in the EU bureaucracy. We want to leave and we want free trade. We don't want a deal.










(if you click on the image above it enlarges so you can read it)

All the information contained in this page is in the Weatherspoon News Magazine.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> We would never have been in that position had Mrs T been in office.


Absolutely right; she would never have held a referendum. "A device of dictators and demagogues", as she called it, quoting Attlee.

And she told Bill Cash "Walking away isn't the spirit of the suffragettes, it's the spirit of surrendered wives."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> On the other hand the EU isn't as marvellous as it's set out to be!
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/...morning-briefing-europe&nlid=5009889620181212


I can't believe that anyone thinks it's marvellous!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I can't believe that anyone thinks it's marvellous!!


I was being sarcastic!

I do think though that there are plenty of people who think the EU can do no wrong.

How often have you heard the EU being criticised either on this thread or any of the ones gone before?

Very rarely.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> And Germany and Netherlands. Try looking closer to home. Many European Countries do not allow dual nationalship if you want to become a citizen of that country.


Thats true . Lithuania doesnt either.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> That's exactly what Mrs May thinks of just before every time she goes on TV!


:Hilarious To be fair , shes coped with loads of carp without having a breakdown ! I wonder how other would be PMs would have coped!


----------



## noushka05

David Schneider: _ It's hard to think of a clearer demonstration of how extreme Brexiters couldn't give a shit about anyone else as long as Brexit happens 
than footage of them proudly stopping an ambulance. >>>>>>>>>_

*Leave.EU*‏Verified account @LeaveEUOfficial
WATCH | Brexiteers in yellow vests bring Westminster Bridge to a standstill in protest at Theresa May's Brexit sell-out. 
This is what happens when the Establishment ignores the will of the people...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
.....................................................................................................................


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Leavers had their chance and failed, time for the adults to take over.


You are absolutely wrong. We have a remainer PM negotiating a trade deal with the EU. Brexiteer MP's have not had a chance at all. A remainer has made this mess not a Brexiteer MP. Get your facts right. We do not have a Brexiteer PM she is a remainer trying to negotiate a deal, a deal leave voters did not vote for. The adults (Brexiteers) are waiting in the side line as they left one by one from Governmental roles because they disagreed with remainer May's proposed deal. We do not need a deal to leave the EU. Remainer May has made the mess this country is currently in.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> David Schneider: _ It's hard to think of a clearer demonstration of how extreme Brexiters couldn't give a shit about anyone else as long as Brexit happens
> than footage of them proudly stopping an ambulance. >>>>>>>>>_
> 
> *Leave.EU*‏Verified account @LeaveEUOfficial
> WATCH | Brexiteers in yellow vests bring Westminster Bridge to a standstill in protest at Theresa May's Brexit sell-out.
> This is what happens when the Establishment ignores the will of the people...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
> .....................................................................................................................


The same has been said about Remainers!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/12/14/brexiteers-arent-extremists-die-hard-remainers/


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I was being sarcastic!


Sorry, missed it! 



Magyarmum said:


> I do think though that there are plenty of people who think the EU can do no wrong.
> 
> How often have you heard the EU being criticised either on this thread or any of the ones gone before?
> 
> Very rarely.


Do you think anyone thinks that? I honestly doubt it.

There have been some on here who criticise the EU, and no doubt fairly in some cases. Some criticisms have I think been unfair, and I've said so, which to my regret, has clearly upset those people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> How often have you heard the EU being criticised either on this thread or any of the ones gone before?
> 
> Very rarely.


Tim Martin (Wetherspoons owner) is very critical of the EU and a leave campaigner and voter. He also critises remainer May alot as well. I have posted his latest article on the EU and the elite in the UK called "The Circle of Deceit". He is spot on with what he says. Sorry but I am fighting my corner. I voted leave and believe a deal is not needed to leave the EU and we will be fine outside of the EU.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> You are absolutely wrong. We have a remainer PM negotiating a trade deal with the EU. Brexiteer MP's have not had a chance at all. A remainer has made this mess not a Brexiteer MP. Get your facts right. We do not have a Brexiteer PM she is a remainer trying to negotiate a deal, a deal leave voters did not vote for. The adults (Brexiteers) are waiting in the side line as they left one by one from Governmental roles because they disagreed with remainer May's proposed deal. We do not need a deal to leave the EU. Remainer May has made the mess this country is currently in.


Utter crap. You had Davis, an ardent Brexiter negotiating the deal for 18 months. He failed. Raab replaces him and got nowhere. The only reason May got involved at the end of Davis' failed attempts was because of his failure. One of the common themes I've seen with leavers is that it's always someone else's fault - the EU, immigrants, Muslims, remainers. Yet leavers have never been able to propose something workable after 40 years of complaining about the EU and in the two years since the referendum. Frankly it's embarrassing and pathetic . I'm assuming that's why they all quit and moan from the sidelines. They've proven they're incapable of driving this forward.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Utter crap. You had Davis, an ardent Brexiter negotiating the deal for 18 months. He failed. Raab replaces him and got nowhere. The only reason May got involved at the end of Davis' failed attempts was because of his failure. One of the common themes I've seen with leavers is that it's always someone else's fault - the EU, immigrants, Muslims, remainers. Yet leavers have never been able to propose something workable after 40 years of complaining about the EU and in the two years since the referendum. Frankly it's embarrassing and pathetic . I'm assuming that's why they all quit and moan from the sidelines. They've proven they're incapable of driving this forward.


The person in charge of the negotiations was remainer May so Davis had to do what he was told. She has been in charge of the whole process. Davis left because remainer May wouldn't let him negotiate and instead had to do as he was told. Remainer May is the one that has created this mess. It is her deal at the end of the day. A remainer deal. Leave voters did not vote for this. Leave voters voted to leave. Period


----------



## Snoringbear

Nope, she took charge after the Brexiter failures.


----------



## Snoringbear

This is a great summary of the conveniently dropped albeit failures of the Brexit bunch.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Nope, she took charge after the Brexiter failures.


I suggest you get your facts right instead of bleeting on here. Leave voters voted to leave. Remainer May is trying to tie the UK to the EU for eterinity.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> This is a great summary of the conveniently dropped albeit failures of the Brexit bunch.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped


Speak for yourself and stop tarring everyone with the same brush.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> The person in charge of the negotiations was remainer May so Davis had to do what he was told. She has been in charge of the whole process. Davis left because remainer May wouldn't let him negotiate and instead had to do as he was told. Remainer May is the one that has created this mess. It is her deal at the end of the day. A remainer deal. Leave voters did not vote for this. Leave voters voted to leave. Period


It always amazes me how Brexiters will blame anyone else other than themselves


----------



## stockwellcat.

The obcessed are blinded by the elite. Those that want to remain in the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> It always amazes me how Brexiters will blame anyone else other than themselves


Ecuse me. We have a remainer PM not a brexiteer PM. She voted remain not leave. The blame for this mess is on the remainer PM Theresa May. The Brexiteers have not had a chance yet to get the UK out of the EU.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> I suggest you get your facts right instead of bleeting on here. Leave voters voted to leave. Remainer May is trying to tie the UK to the EU for eterinity.


Common knowledge, easy to get the facts right https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44941792


----------



## Snoringbear

Maybe it would be easier for leavers if it was in the side of a bus?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Common knowledge, easy to get the facts right https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44941792


Haha the BBC. :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Maybe it would be easier for leavers if it was in the side of a bus?


The remainer have a big yellow bus. :Eggonface


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> Ecuse me. We have a remainer PM not a brexiteer PM. She voted remain not leave. The blame for this mess is on the remainer PM Theresa May. The Brexiteers have not had a chance yet to get the UK out of the EU.


Nope, the only people to blame for this mess are leave orientated MPs, media and voters. Like I said before, it's amazing how you shift the blame. As far as I'm concerned you're all the ones who've shit in the bed, up to you to clean it up.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Nope, the only people to blame for this mess are leave orientated MPs, media and voters. Like I said before, it's amazing how you shift the blame. As far as I'm concerned you're all the ones who've shit in the bed, up to you to clean it up.


Removed as not to cause confusion.
Remainers moaning because they didn't get their way and continuing Cameron and Osbornes project fear campaign. The elite have completely blinded the remainers. Remainer May (she is a remain supporter) is responsible for this mess no one else. Perhaps there should be a Brexiteer PM.

Face up to facts. Alot of leave voters made their own minds up and didn't listen the the claptrap on TV, on Buses and in the press. Cameron believed the newspaper polls right up to the last minutes and lost. The EU wouldn't even let him renegotiate.


----------



## Snoringbear

[



stockwellcat. said:


> It is isn't it.


Thanks for agreeing with me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> [
> 
> Thanks for agreeing with me.


I was disagreeing with you. Your arguements are futile.


----------



## Snoringbear

Nope. You’re first sentence was in agreement with my comment, maybe go back and read it again. 

Anyway, how do you propose to solve the Irish border issue under the GFA and improve our global trading? These seem to be fundamental issues in Brexit and I’m always told by leavers that they knew what they voted for. So what are the answers?


----------



## Snoringbear

Ironic that editing your post has a lot in common with leavers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...edge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Nope. You're first sentence was in agreement with my comment, maybe go back and read it again.
> 
> Anyway, how do you propose to solve the Irish border issue under the GFA and improve our global trading? These seem to be fundamental issues in Brexit and I'm always told by leavers that they knew what they voted for. So what are the answers?


I knew why I voted to leave.

The UK has a common travel area with Ireland which predates the GFA and EU open boarders. The GFA is between the UK and Northern Ireland and was drawn up to create peace in Northern Ireland. Suggest you look it up and study.

Regarding trading around the world all trade is governed by WTO rules including the EU. The UK will be open to trade with the rest of the world. The EU charge 53% on imports. The UK could and can charge 0% on imports creating absolute free trade.

Don't believe the Elite who are scaring you into believing the EU is the be all and end all of all life as we know it. It is the Elite you should be wary of.

I suggest you back off a little as you are pretty hostile.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Ironic that editing your post has a lot in common with leavers
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...edge-disowns-350-million-pounds-a7099906.html


Well stop believing for one what the newspapers say and comparing all leave voters to what they are saying because we aren't all like that. The article is old as well. Stop dragging up old arguements.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious To be fair , shes coped with loads of carp without having a breakdown ! I wonder how other would be PMs would have coped!


To be honest I've always found carp to be quite restful. 

To be (unusually) nice to May, I think that, although she did reluctantly vote Remain - she rarely stuck her head above the parapet in the actual campaign, and I think she really likes the idea of curbing immigration - I think she has really nailed her colours to the Leave mast, and seen its delivery as a solemn duty. She has done her best to get a deal where we do Leave - and never mind the silly ERG type Leave Means Leave Everything rubbish - but without messing up the country's future or the Irish border.

That's all I'll give her, though, and I still think she'll have to put it back to the people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Dominic Cummings* (Head of the Leave Campaign who absurdly suggested the UK would save £350 million a week when the figure is nowhere near this)
*David Cameron* (Head of Project Fear and the Remain Campaign)
*George Osborne* (Deputy Project Fear campaigner and remainer and ex chancellor)
*Theresa May* (Current remainer PM not delivering what was voted for)

All have alot to answer for @Snoringbear. Alot of leave voters did not believe in the nonesense on TV, Radio, Billboards, Newspapers etc as they had already made their minds up and were going to vote leave anyway and weren't blinded by the elite.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> It always amazes me how Brexiters will blame anyone else other than themselves


No different from Remainers blaming old people for them losing the referendum .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> To be honest I've always found carp to be quite restful.


 That was not a typo . I was going to put crap but thought that would be rude:Hilarious


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> I knew why I voted to leave.
> 
> The UK has a common travel area with Ireland which predates the GFA and EU open boarders. The GFA is between the UK and Northern Ireland and was drawn up to create peace in Northern Ireland. Suggest you look it up and study.
> 
> Regarding trading around the world all trade is governed by WTO rules including the EU. The UK will be open to trade with the rest of the world. The EU charge 53% on imports. The UK could and can charge 0% on imports creating absolute free trade.
> 
> Don't believe the Elite who are scaring you into believing the EU is the be all and end all of all life as we know it. It is the Elite you should be wary of.
> 
> I suggest you back off a little as you are pretty hostile.


Sorry, I can't stop laughing at that response


----------



## Snoringbear

..............


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Sorry, I can't stop laughing at that response


Whatever. I cannot stop laughing at remainers like you who think they know it all when they are just regurgitating project fear rubbish.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Nope, we also blame idiots.


I suggest you be careful how you view people and how you tred. Alot of leave voters are lawyers, judges, MP's, Lord's, Scientists, Doctors, Police officers, Soldiers, NHS workers, Highly qualified people with degrees and Masters qualifications etc.


----------



## Snoringbear

They'll be in the minority https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> They'll be in the minority https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html


If you want to believe that. It is baised information and untrue.

Let's remember the polls told remainers they would win the referendum up until the 11th hour and 59th minute and 59th second and Cameron and many others believed the polls as well.

The silent majority voiced their opinion at the referendum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.expatnetwork.com/brexit-expat-pensions/


I think more on the lines if UK will recognise EU working years and vice versa.

For QROPS one needs at least 50k but to have it nicely spread at least 100 and choose the provider with care...
Best if you qualify as self - investing client... that is , or you have very decent IFA ( rare though).


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> If you want to believe that. It is baised information and untrue.
> 
> Let's remember the polls told remainers they would win the referendum up until the 11th hour and 59th minute and 59th second and Cameron and many others believed the polls as well.
> 
> The silent majority voiced their opinion at the referendum.


I didn't realise it was untrue. Thanks for that. Maybe you can link me to your peer reviewed papers like theirs so I can look at it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> I didn't realise it was untrue. Thanks for that. Maybe you can link me to your peer reviewed papers like theirs so I can look at it?


So you believe everything you read in the newspapers? Really?

So you are telling me at the polling booths people were asked what their qualifications are etc? I don't remember this all I remember was answering this question:










People came forward afterwards and said they voted leave from all kinds of professions and none professions just like they did who voted remain. Then the remain voters started attacking the young leave voters online abusing them. Disgusting behaviour. So your opinion on this behaviour please.


----------



## KittenKong

Not only the party for the rich....








https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...utm_source=Facebook&__twitter_impression=true


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not only the party for the rich....
> View attachment 381720
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...utm_source=Facebook&__twitter_impression=true


Why not?
Attracting highly skilled people is a good idea. Many countries have the same clauses.

They should try and fill the jobs within the UK first before offering jobs outside of the UK to highly skilled workers. A highly skilled worker is less likely to claim off the state for state benefits.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> ..............


Sorry , I don't know Morse code.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Sorry, I can't stop laughing at that response


 Not as much as we're laughing at yours


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , I don't know Morse code.


I can decipher it, it said


> Nope, we also blame idiots.


 I replied and the morse code appeared.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I can deciphor it it said Nope, we also blame idiots.
> I replied and the morse code appeared.


I think the line of dots was a more interesting and less repetitive answer !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I think the line of dots was a more interesting and less repetitive answer !


I agree.


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> the only people to blame for this mess are leave orientated MPs, media and voters.


I can't see the posts to which you're responding, but their thrust is obvious, and it's often heard. It's everyone's fault - Remoaners, the bullying EU, pretend Leavers, the tooth fairy - everyone but the Brexiteers themselves.

But from the word go, the Brexiteers never had a plan for how to improve anything in particular because they didn't care; they just wanted to remove the EU's ability to bind us to the same rules as the other 27 members. And why? Because we're Britain. We're not France or Germany or Spain or Italy or any of those other lesser nations. We're Britain.

So 'Leave!' was the be all and end all. Take Back Control!

And do what, exactly? Doesn't matter. It's not what we do in future that matters; we just want to be the big important country we [wrongly think we] were.

It's that ridiculous conceit that led our chief negotiator to claim that we would get "exactly the same benefits" after the negotiation as we have now. Only without the cost of membership or the rules that apply to the lesser nations. "We hold all the cards".

The negotiations would be "the easiest in human history" because "they need us more than we need them". Of course they do; we're Britain.

They hadn't bothered to read the rules of the EU; they had no credible plan for leaving or for the future. They just pompously believed we would get everything we wanted without having to bother with the same give and take that the other 27 accepted. Everything would be fine because we're different; we're Britain. And then of course we found that we weren't special at all.

That's why originally there was no mention of trade deals with other countries. It was all about "control of our money, laws and borders". Only when they found out that this came at a significant cost to every family in Britain did the nonsense of making our own compensatory trade deals begin to be mentioned. Even now it is sometimes forgotten when May repeats the mantra of "money, laws and borders".

It was a vote encouraged by prehistoric instincts of tribalism, and with no thought for the state of the modern global world, where every country is tied into many multinational treaties that mean they don't have full control of their own laws and actions. They share that control so that the world actually works.

And now it's all going oh so predictably wrong, they blame everyone but themselves. No plan from the start, and no plan now.

[Apologies for length.]


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Arnie83 the blame is squarely on the remainer PM. Yes remainer PM May. Even remainers are blaming her as well as leave voters. Neither side of this is to blame as May took it on herself to negotiate the deal that cannot be agreed upon in the UK. Leave voters don't want this deal because they voted leave and remainers don't want it for one of their many reasons.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Brexit is certainly doing a few things that are going to change politics in this country. It is tearing apart the Conservative Party and the Labour Party. If a second referendum was to go ahead as many news papers are predicting tonight it is going to leave the UK deeply divided which ever side would win and leave the UK fractured and finally I don't think for one minute the EU will go OK come back there are no consequences it would more than likely entail some consequences as the EU has been left with uncertaintity over the last 18 months along with the UK. They are going to dish out some form of punishment if the UK votes remain, believe me. Then there's all the legal rammifications that the UK will have to deal with reversing everything as alot of the UK laws have been changed. Let's not forget how it will make the UK look on the international stage, weak, untrustworthy, unreliable, indecisive, etc if the UK voted remain in another referendum as there would be most certainly alot of unrest with people who want to leave the EU wanting another referendum. What then? Best of 3 or 4 or 5? The political establishment couldn't possibly be allowed to carry on in it's current format whatever happens next.


----------



## Elles

We’ve been having a perfectly reasonable discussion, with no accusations and swearing, or morse code...


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> Let's not forget how it will make the *UK look on the international stage, weak, untrustworthy, unreliable, indecisive, etc* if the UK voted remain in another referendum as there would be most certainly alot of unrest with people who want to leave the EU wanting another referendum.


Unfortunately this is how the UK is looking internationally right now. The UK used to be a beacon of stability, but it's anything but that right now.

Leave or remain, whatever the outcome there will be large parts of the country unhappy and there is not a deal or politican on earth that will provide an outcome that pleases everyone.


----------



## Happy Paws2

This referendum has split the country and things are just getting worse by the day, I doubt it will ever be the same again.


----------



## Elles

Leavers weren’t given carte Blanche to dump the Eu, they had no choice over it. For some the plan was to leave the Eu within weeks, as they have said innumerable times, but they weren’t permitted to do so. They being the ERG and Farage etc. Anyone who supports them and their version of leaving technically aren’t responsible for the current position. You’d probably say thank heaven, it would be much worse. We may find out whether that’s true or not, with TM’s deal being rejected and the possibility of being forced into no deal. 

I haven’t seen the tooth fairy blamed for anything by anyone. Jeremy Corbyn believes that a new government led by him can negotiate a workable and acceptable deal with the Eu. As he doesn’t have the same red lines Theresa May has and the Eu have said that it’s her red lines that leave them in a position where they are unable to do any more, JC might actually be telling the truth.


----------



## KittenKong

Hope he heeds the warning...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Leavers weren't given carte Blanche to dump the Eu, they had no choice over it. For some the plan was to leave the Eu within weeks, as they have said innumerable times, but they weren't permitted to do so. They being the ERG and Farage etc. Anyone who supports them and their version of leaving technically aren't responsible for the current position. You'd probably say thank heaven, it would be much worse. We may find out whether that's true or not, with TM's deal being rejected and the possibility of being forced into no deal.
> 
> I haven't seen the tooth fairy blamed for anything by anyone. Jeremy Corbyn believes that a new government led by him can negotiate a workable and acceptable deal with the Eu. As he doesn't have the same red lines Theresa May has and the Eu have said that it's her red lines that leave them in a position where they are unable to do any more, JC might actually be telling the truth.


I appreciate what you are saying but I don't think the EU leaders would be in any mood to negoiate a new deal as it took 18 months to get this one.

What is Corbyn's deal? I haven't seen anything to counter May's deal. There is nothing from Corbyn on paper to show an alternative deal all I hear is hot air. If you can provide a link to what his deal is then it might be debatable but I have not seen any alternative to remainer May's deal as no alternative has been presented.


----------



## KittenKong

This is just delightful...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This is just delightful...
> View attachment 381737


I am assuming the 2 with their arms raised aren't waving at someone and the one with his finger under his nose is itching his nose?

Disgusting behaviour and does not represent most of the law abiding leave voters who do not tolerate this kind of behaviour.


----------



## Elles

Should lock them up for inciting hatred. Fortunately people like that are in a very small minority here.

I don’t know what JC’s deal would be SWC, just the media is slaughtering him and talking about unicorns etc. and that makes me instantly suspicious. A journalist has no idea what Corbyn was talking about in meetings with Eu leaders and how many times have politicians(including Eu crats) said ‘no’ then changed their minds?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Should lock them up for inciting hatred. Fortunately people like that are in a very small minority here.
> 
> I don't know what JC's deal would be SWC, just the media is slaughtering him and talking about unicorns etc. and that makes me instantly suspicious. A journalist has no idea what Corbyn was talking about in meetings with Eu leaders and how many times have politicians(including Eu crats) said 'no' then changed their minds?


If he had any sense he would put it down in writing what his deal is. It would certainly be a point of debate. But from what I have seen he makes it up as he goes along just like remainer May did. Labour is as fractured as the Conservatives are. If Corbyn sat down with his MP's and drew up a plan it might unit his party and make him more desirable but as far as I know he hasn't. No doubt he has his own redlines as well but no one knows anything about his deal as of yet. He has had two years to put his deal on paper and put it to the people of the UK as a counter deal or second option and hasn't. He is an opposition leader and doing this would have given him some kind of support. I wouldn't say remainer May's deal is dead in the water it would more be Parliament is dead in the water as there are no alternative deals to remainer May's. This puts the UK in a position that it is in now. Remainer May's Deal or No Deal.


----------



## MollySmith

Good. Hope he wins. 
https://metro.co.uk/2018/12/15/bori...-now-face-legal-action-brexit-claims-8251428/


----------



## KittenKong

This is a charming response from The Sun. "If you don't go, (to Europe after Brexit) you won't meet people like him".

Talk about inciting hatred towards former European allies and partners.

Imagine how you'd feel if I suggested "British" people are all like Theresa May or Stephen Yaxley-Lennon to those outside the UK?

Sickening.


----------



## KittenKong

It's only a clear choice when the government agree.

The Tory party recently voted to save their strong and stable one, who they first voted for to "lead" them in 2016.

So why not give the people of the UK another vote?

And some say with May getting 63% of the vote is not enough?!

One law for them, another for the rest of us.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The same has been said about Remainers!
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/12/14/brexiteers-arent-extremists-die-hard-remainers/


Someone could have died. The people who whipped up nationalism with their pathetic 'Lets make Britain Great Again' slogans ' . Who colluded with hostile outside forces & used dark money to subvert our democracy are proudly sharing that shameful video MM.

This article you reference in this right wing rag is in response to Hammond calling the head bangers in his own party extremists. Rees Mogg, Johnson, Leadsom, Raab, Fox & co ARE extremists, they are dangerous people. Even other tories say so - anyone who thinks otherwise must be in denial.

The above extremists & their followers are putting not only jobs & the economy at risk but EVERYTHING most of us hold dear in jeopardy. My children will suffer, the living world will suffer - millions of people will suffer. They are willing to risk peace in NI! Are remainers extremists for standing up against this?

Do you think people who couldn't care less about the consequences, who want brexit no matter the cost are being rational?

How anyone could be proud of this country anymore is beyond me

*Mike Galsworthy‏*: _On one hand: 700,000 pro-EU protesters march peacefully in London without a single incident.

On the other: About 16 pro-Brexit protesters block traffic in London and obstruct an ambulance._

*David Lammy: *‏_You stopped an ambulance with its siren on from helping someone in need.

Are you really celebrating this?_
:
 
*Dr Philip Lee*: _You're blocking a rapid response car from the @GSTTnhs ECMO Retrieval Team, that delivers critical care personnel and gear to very unwell patients needing external heart and lung support.

Someone could be dying and one of your supporters is giving them the finger.

Classy.

*Faisal Islam*‏Verified account @faisalislam 22h22 hours ago
Faisal Islam Retweeted Leave.EU

You can't seriously have posted your supporters literally blocking an ambulance from Guys and St Thomas' Hospital on an emergency run.

Seriously, @andywigmore ? @arron_banks ?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-obrien-rounds-meaningless-slogans-of-brexit/


----------



## stockwellcat.

So if there is a second referendum and leave won what then? Remainers keep going on with their Project Fear campaign (well why not they haven't stopped since Cameron and Osborne started Project Fear in 2016)?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I knew why I voted to leave.
> 
> The UK has a common travel area with Ireland which predates the GFA and EU open boarders. The GFA is between the UK and Northern Ireland and was drawn up to create peace in Northern Ireland. Suggest you look it up and study.
> 
> Regarding trading around the world all trade is governed by WTO rules including the EU. The UK will be open to trade with the rest of the world. The EU charge 53% on imports. The UK could and can charge 0% on imports creating absolute free trade.
> 
> Don't believe the Elite who are scaring you into believing the EU is the be all and end all of all life as we know it. It is the Elite you should be wary of.
> 
> I suggest you back off a little as you are pretty hostile.


Prepare to be terrified (or in your case, dismiss it as 'project fear' or scaremongering or hyperbole )

So here is another reality check on WTO terms by Edwin Hayward for anyone who chooses to be informed (for those who choose denial just ignore it ),

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Debunking WTO, and what "trading on WTO terms" really means...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073221524545363973
As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. 1/26

Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens' rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. 2/26

On Brexit Day, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. The treaties are gone in a flash, as if we'd fed them into a shredder. (That's not the EU being vindictive, it's just how the Article 50 process works.) Even *if* we have a transition period 3/26

the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. 4/26

Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules 5/2

designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. 6/26

In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kickaround in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. 7/26

Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then 8/26

pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers 9/2

have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs.

WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero 10/26

f we want to. But that's when the WTO "most favoured nation" rule kicks in.

"Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever, because what it really means is that *we* are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. 11/26

So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages.

But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the 12/26

tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet.

That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. 13/26

You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. 14/26

But that's only half the picture. We have no control over other countries' import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we're trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO 15/26

demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less 16/2

competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost?

Short answer: they won't. 17/26

But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs.

However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. 18/26

The idea is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK.

It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive 19/26

for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse.

And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect 20/26

by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs.

If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2

Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements.

We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. 22/26

*So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either:

A) Don't understand what that means or

B) Are lying to you *

For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it 23/26

it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit.

In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? 24/26

In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be.

Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash.

But unlike the crash, we'd be willingly 25/2

inflicting the pain on ourselves.

And the ultimate end result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come.

WTO: just say no! 26/26



KittenKong said:


> https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-obrien-rounds-meaningless-slogans-of-brexit/
> 
> View attachment 381805
> View attachment 381806


He is bang on. This is how the powerful control the masses.

James has added to that:
_
So much of this mess has been caused by people not being pressed to explain precisely what they mean by phrases like 'take back control' & 'will of the people'. Hopefully, newer nonsense like 'managed no deal' & 'WTO rules' will be treated more robustl

._


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> She doesn't hold a candle to Mrs T. She was a force to be reckoned with, she would not have kowtowed to all and sundry


They are cut from the same cloth though.












Happy Paws said:


> and EU wouldn't have kowtowed to that evil women either.


May the Farce be with her.












rona said:


> We would never have been in that position had Mrs T been in office.


Never a truer word spoken.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I feel for anyone who has a holiday home over there and it they have a dog it's not going to be a easy just to go over the weekend,


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Jeremy Corbyn believes that a new government led by him can negotiate a workable and acceptable deal with the Eu. As he doesn't have the same red lines Theresa May has and the Eu have said that it's her red lines that leave them in a position where they are unable to do any more, JC might actually be telling the truth.


Corbyn believes nothing of the sort unless he's an idiot. He is promising the same as David Davis promised - the exact same benefits but without having to follow the rules that all the other EU members follow. It's nonsense. His sole aim is a Socialist Labour government.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This is a charming response from The Sun. "If you don't go, (to Europe after Brexit) you won't meet people like him".
> 
> Talk about inciting hatred towards former European allies and partners.
> 
> Imagine how you'd feel if I suggested "British" people are all like Theresa May or Stephen Yaxley-Lennon to those outside the UK?
> 
> Sickening.
> 
> View attachment 381761


Pathetic, embarrassing and blatant tribalism.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Prepare to be terrified (or in your case, dismiss it as 'project fear' or scaremongering or hyperbole )
> 
> So here is another reality check on WTO terms by Edwin Hayward for anyone who chooses to be informed (for those who choose denial just ignore it ),
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
> 
> Debunking WTO, and what "trading on WTO terms" really means...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073221524545363973
> As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. 1/26
> 
> Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens' rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. 2/26
> 
> On Brexit Day, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. The treaties are gone in a flash, as if we'd fed them into a shredder. (That's not the EU being vindictive, it's just how the Article 50 process works.) Even *if* we have a transition period 3/26
> 
> the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. 4/26
> 
> Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules 5/2
> 
> designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. 6/26
> 
> In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kickaround in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. 7/26
> 
> Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then 8/26
> 
> pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers 9/2
> 
> have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs.
> 
> WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero 10/26
> 
> f we want to. But that's when the WTO "most favoured nation" rule kicks in.
> 
> "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever, because what it really means is that *we* are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. 11/26
> 
> So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages.
> 
> But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the 12/26
> 
> tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet.
> 
> That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. 13/26
> 
> You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. 14/26
> 
> But that's only half the picture. We have no control over other countries' import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we're trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO 15/26
> 
> demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less 16/2
> 
> competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost?
> 
> Short answer: they won't. 17/26
> 
> But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs.
> 
> However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. 18/26
> 
> The idea is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK.
> 
> It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive 19/26
> 
> for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse.
> 
> And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect 20/26
> 
> by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs.
> 
> If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2
> 
> Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements.
> 
> We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. 22/26
> 
> *So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either:
> 
> A) Don't understand what that means or
> 
> B) Are lying to you *
> 
> For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it 23/26
> 
> it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit.
> 
> In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? 24/26
> 
> In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be.
> 
> Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash.
> 
> But unlike the crash, we'd be willingly 25/2
> 
> inflicting the pain on ourselves.
> 
> And the ultimate end result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come.
> 
> WTO: just say no! 26/26
> 
> He is bang on. This is how the powerful control the masses.
> 
> James has added to that:
> _
> So much of this mess has been caused by people not being pressed to explain precisely what they mean by phrases like 'take back control' & 'will of the people'. Hopefully, newer nonsense like 'managed no deal' & 'WTO rules' will be treated more robustl
> 
> ._


I've warned many times on here about Minford's economics; the plan supported by Rees-Mogg and the ERG WTO crowd, and this sums it up nicely. His plan is for completely free world trade, with no tariffs or quotas, with everyone following our lead, including the EU and Trump's America.

It's all very well giving the impression that prices in the UK would fall, which some might if nothing else changed. But it ignores the instant price rise of everything we import as the pound crashes again - see June 24th 2016 - and it ignores the fact. lauded by Minford and Rees-Mogg, that many British industries would simply collapse as cheaper imports flooded the market.

Rees-Mogg talks about a 50 year period before Brexit benefits are felt because that is how long it would take the country to get back on its feet. That's how long it would take for all those trained workers whose jobs disappeared to China either to start again from scratch trying to find something else to do, or to die off.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting project fear doesn't refute facts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I've warned many times on here about Minford's economics; the plan supported by Rees-Mogg and the ERG WTO crowd, and this sums it up nicely. His plan is for completely free world trade, with no tariffs or quotas, with everyone following our lead, including the EU and Trump's America.
> 
> It's all very well giving the impression that prices in the UK would fall, which some might if nothing else changed. But it ignores the instant price rise of everything we import as the pound crashes again - see June 24th 2016 - and it ignores the fact. lauded by Minford and Rees-Mogg, that many British industries would simply collapse as cheaper imports flooded the market.
> 
> Rees-Mogg talks about a 50 year period before Brexit benefits are felt because that is how long it would take the country to get back on its feet. That's how long it would take for all those trained workers whose jobs disappeared to China either to start again from scratch trying to find something else to do, or to die off.
> 
> Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting project fear doesn't refute facts.


And how exactly are you meant to change things on a Pet Forum? You want to be preaching this to your local MP.


----------



## KittenKong

From the Times via Brexit exposed.

'WE KNEW WHAT WE VOTED FOR. NO HOLIDAYS.' | Leaked Government plans states British people should not plan any holidays or travel abroad after a no deal Brexit.

"Families will be advised not to book holidays after next March, according to contingency plans being drawn up to prepare for a no-deal Brexit.

The proposed guidance, which will shock the travel industry, was expected to be discussed at last week's cancelled cabinet meeting, after civil servants were told to ramp up emergency planning.

Senior officials have explored the idea with at least one cabinet minister and discussed the impact that the advice could have on specific tour operators amid fears it might bankrupt them. A leak inquiry was under way in No 10 last night to establish how the proposal became public."

- The Times, today (paywall).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...g-dont-go-on-holiday-after-march-29-jnfmrgsj9

Like | Follow | Share


----------



## cheekyscrip

Problem with this referendum is that it really was a negative choice - you are pro or anti EU.
Leave never came up with a plan- what Leave will mean inpractical terms. 
When Remain pointed what it means to Leave they just screamed “ Project Fear”.

So People voiced their disappointment with EU and I totally get it. Merkel bullying other countries - since when Germany is telling us what to do? - that topped the balance.

Problem is that it is easy to reject something without looking what the alternative is.
All we were told were lies like 350 millions on the buses and Turkish invasion.

Brexit is Brexit? What is Brexit?


As no one knew anyone who voted for it had their own idea, what it will be...

But I can imagine it wasn’t much less money , much poorer and divided country, trouble in NI, threatening Gibraltar..,

EU is not in best shape.

True, but what is the alternative?
WTO? 
Really ?
May is not my choice for PM, but if the alternative is BoJo or JRM?

Remain is not perfect.

But much better than May Deal.

May Deal is rubbish, but still much better than a disaster of No Deal.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> I feel for anyone who has a holiday home over there and it they have a dog it's not going to be a easy just to go over the weekend,


I think our quarantine laws are too lax now . We have heart worm / lung worm in this country which is now prevalent in this country . We also have Eastern Europeans bringing in hoards of puppies from puppies farms to sell here .


----------



## Snoringbear

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...ade-deals-shows-just-what-we-re-about-to-lose


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I think our quarantine laws are too lax now . We have heart worm / lung worm in this country which is now prevalent in this country . We also have Eastern Europeans bringing in hoards of puppies from puppies farms to sell here .


That's an appalling distraction from the main facts. They're horrors of puppy farms in the UK too. It's not restricted to Eastern Europe.

Yes, in the '70's quarantine laws were strict

You think this rotten government who vow to legalise hunting with dogs who voted to say animals don't feel pain give a toss?

We are taking about families who take their pets abroad with them who may not be able to after March 29th or alternatively after the transition period. They could be major obstacles and/or expense if they wish to do so in future all because some people put a cross on a ballot paper. No mention of this on the side of a bus.

And another thing. Sanctuaries such as Tala in Cyprus often re-home cats in other countries including the UK.

Image if they weren't able to do that anymore? Or do you believe that would be a good thing because the poor cats weren't born in Britain?


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...ade-deals-shows-just-what-we-re-about-to-lose


Spot on.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , I don't know Morse code.


Love this!!


----------



## DogLover1981

I haven't been paying much attention to brexit lately but brexit managed to get a podcast from a popular American site. An interesting listen.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...l-has-a-job-but-brexit-still-has-no-solution/


----------



## DogLover1981

Lots of drama, it does sound like. I imagine many people are just getting sick of it and getting sick of hearing about it and something to that affect was said. O.O


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> That's an appalling distraction from the main facts.
> 
> They're horrors of puppy farms in the UK too. It's not restricted to Eastern Europe.
> 
> Yes, in the '70's quarantine laws were strict
> 
> You think this rotten government who vow to legalise hunting with dogs who voted to say animals don't feel pain give a toss?
> 
> We are taking about families who take their pets abroad with them who may not be able to after March 29th or alternatively after the transition period. They could be major obstacles and/or expense if they wish to do so in future all because some people put a cross on a ballot paper. No mention of this on the side of a bus.


 You didn't understand my point .

If there is a niche for pups in this country then other countries will take advantage of it , they will breed *more *puppies because they know they can bring easily them here . It allows the puppy farms to stay open. More puppies means more suffering and misery . If It is easy for them to bring pups in they will do it .
They travel for thousand of miles and can it take two days . How many die on these journeys that we don;t know about . PETS makes it easier for them to do this .

Im worried about the diseases that can be bought into this country and cause suffering here.

BTW I don't believe that a 6 month quarantine should be bought back .



> And another thing. Sanctuaries such as Tala in Cyprus often re-home cats in other countries including the UK.
> 
> Image if they weren't able to do that anymore? Or do you believe that would be a good thing because the poor cats weren't born in Britain?


I know about animal suffering ,I have seen it in all forms. I have frequently said that I worked the RSPCA , joined at 18 at heathrow and shelters . Ive worked also volunteered for many years until I got sick of destroying animals , unwanted kittens and puppies, sick of crying myself to sleep at night .
The sheer cruel things that people do to animals , Ive seen it .
Im 63, Ive done the campaigns , the marches and demos and collecting signatures, including puppy farming and puppy Love the anti puppy farming group , 45 years and I find your accusation very hurtful indeed.

I could make insinuations about you but I'm not going you .
I won't be responding to your posts in future. I wish you all the best with the cat rescue.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Whether you can see this or not it deserves a right of reply.
> 
> I make no apologies for my response whether I misunderstood your post or not. I found your generalisation of Eastern Europeans deeply offensive. I might be "White British" on the surface but passionate European on the inside whatever the likes of Yaxley-Lennon, May, Farage and co say.


oh for crying out loud. You're really scraping the barrel. I have to reply to this absurd response. This is to do with the EU and passport control at the borders into the UK .

This is not a puppy farming thread. Why would I mention the dreadful puppy farms in the US for example when they don.t import their pups here. You really seem to be taking offense for the sake of it .

I guess the Dogs Trust and CH 4 Despatches are racist too. They did a huge investigation into it .


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 381921
> 
> View attachment 381922
> 
> View attachment 381923


Yeah , Good point !


----------



## stockwellcat.

In the words of Plato...


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> In the words of Plato...
> 
> View attachment 381925


:Hilarious I think you need tell me to STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD through a loud hailer !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Yeah , Good point !


People can be ignorant but rise above them by not giving them the time of day by entertaining them. You know what is right.

Stockwellcat 2018


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 381932


Well said sir!


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Magyarmum Thank you


----------



## KittenKong

And of course, "No more queue jumping".


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 381932


+


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> And of course, "No more queue jumping".
> 
> View attachment 381939


I must say I don't think this is really very likely. The Tories will make an exception for NHS staff; they're not that daft!


----------



## KittenKong

Saw this on Facebook. Really made me smile and gives me some hope for the future.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God....


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I've warned many times on here about Minford's economics; the plan supported by Rees-Mogg and the ERG WTO crowd, and this sums it up nicely. His plan is for completely free world trade, with no tariffs or quotas, with everyone following our lead, including the EU and Trump's America.
> 
> It's all very well giving the impression that prices in the UK would fall, which some might if nothing else changed. But it ignores the instant price rise of everything we import as the pound crashes again - see June 24th 2016 - and it ignores the fact. lauded by Minford and Rees-Mogg, that many British industries would simply collapse as cheaper imports flooded the market.
> 
> Rees-Mogg talks about a 50 year period before Brexit benefits are felt because that is how long it would take the country to get back on its feet. That's how long it would take for all those trained workers whose jobs disappeared to China either to start again from scratch trying to find something else to do, or to die off.
> 
> Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting project fear doesn't refute facts.


As we've said previously, no responsible government would be so reckless to allow us to crash out without a deal. But this government has proved itself to anything but responsible. It is beyond incompetent!. I fear they are going to let us crash out by default. Then the voters who are championing a 'no deal' are going find out first hand what remoaners have been trying to warn them about, but it will be too late. They will have to live with the terrible consequences, knowing its what they wanted.

Maybe we shouldnt worry though? That saviour of our NHS Jeremy Hunt thinks he can save the day.

_A group of ministers including Sajid Javid, Jeremy Hunt, Stephen Barclay, Gavin Williamson and Penny Mordaunt plan to use the meeting to push for no deal to become the "central planning assumption". Hunt said he was positive about a no deal and that he "would like to have a crack" at being prime minister. "I've always thought that even in a no-deal situation this is a great country. We'll find a way to flourish and prosper," he told The Sunday Telegraph.

Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, said: "It beggars belief any minister could have considered these proposals and honestly thought a no-deal Brexit is a credible way forward
_


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> And of course, "No more queue jumping".
> 
> View attachment 381939


Sickening!

*
Starvation, homelessness and more real problems pushed aside by Brexit *

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...=social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1544915348










What a mess the tories have made of this country in a few short years.

Is anyone else feeling like this?


----------



## noushka05

Absolutely this!

*Duncan Jones*: Let me give you a taste of the harm you've already done, @theresa_may. We hate that you pretend a referendum without context or even basic information was fair. We hate that you don't acknowledge the number of people who should have been allow a vote but weren't

We hate that you won't admit that a wholesale assault of lies was allowed to pass unchallenged by your party. We hate how transparent it has become that key members of your party are relying on this result for personal aggrandizement.

We hate that our kids won't have the freedom to live, work & travel throughout the EU that we did. We hate that we have a leader so keen to hand our trade negotiating powers to bigger players like the USA, rather than keep them through the EU

We hate that you can't see how this politically weakens both us and the EU in a world where Putin is looking to see discord & expand militarily. We hate that you have split British families over this issue. We hate that you are sacrificing the United Kingdom for Little England.

We hate you, @theresa_may. No amount of deal making is going to fix that. You worry a #PeoplesVote will divide the nation? The truth is, it's the only thing left with a chance of saving it.

You? It's too late to save you.

,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Elles

Fun loving, outward looking etc. country? When and where was that then?

It wasn’t the U.K. before the referendum, if it was we wouldn’t have had one. I thought it was brexiteers who look back with rose coloured glasses, it seems Remainers have an even worse memory.

I read the article. 5 families in Scotland with 27 children between them? Sounds more like Utah. The mother hadn’t eaten for 3 days and one child had no shoes? All this apparently because of the Tories’ Universal Credit.

Oh really? If you have more than 2 children universal credit doesn’t apply to you yet, you have to carry on with what you claim now. Maybe he should have checked what his mate told him at the bar.

Eventually you will only get universal credit for the first two children, any more born after 2017 you won’t get extra universal credit money for. Anyone who already has 5 kids will carry on being paid as now. The people struggling are those with 2 or less children where there have been delays in their claim and no one is ignoring it because of Brexit. The government is under attack about it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Fun loving, outward looking etc. country? When and where was that then?
> 
> It wasn't the U.K. before the referendum, if it was we wouldn't have had one. I thought it was brexiteers who look back with rose coloured glasses, it seems Remainers have an even worse memory.
> 
> I read the article. 5 families in Scotland with 27 children between them? Sounds more like Utah. The mother hadn't eaten for 3 days and one child had no shoes? All this apparently because of the Tories' Universal Credit.
> 
> Oh really? If you have more than 2 children universal credit doesn't apply to you yet, you have to carry on with what you claim now. Maybe he should have checked what his mate told him at the bar.
> 
> Eventually you will only get universal credit for the first two children, any more born after 2017 you won't get extra universal credit money for. Anyone who already has 5 kids will carry on being paid as now. The people struggling are those with 2 or less children where there have been delays in their claim and no one is ignoring it because of Brexit. The government is under attack about it.


After 2010.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Before 2010.


Before 2010 :Hilarious

What when Liebour was in power. :Hilarious

The UK had high unemployment figures back then as it was more attractive to be on benefits because you got more money than a working person.


----------



## noushka05

These two spell out the obvious.

*David Schneider*: Brilliant thread from @IanDunt. Whatever Leavers may have voted for, what Brexit is at core for this government is an anti-immigration, anti-immigrant crusade. >>>>

*Ian Dunt*: This is a grotesque act of national self harm.

*
NEW Sajid Javid 'plans to slash EU immigration by 80%' after Brexit*
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...id-plans-slash-eu-immigration-80-after-brexit

*Ian Dunt*: It will make us all poorer, life harder, society less vibrant. It'll make our own neighbours feel unwelcome. And all to satisfy the coldest an meanest in our country.

This, above all, is why Brexit has to be resisted. It is the vanguard of British reactionary politics. The replacement of free movement with a Tory immigration policy is the worst defeat for liberalism in a generation.

And you can forget all that tepid unconvincing bullshit, from David Davis on one side and the useful Lexit idiots on the other, about this being done to control, not reduce, immigration. It or an anti-immigrant policy. That is all it f***ing is.

It's barely even a Brexit policy at this stage. It's just an anti-immigrant policy with a trade hara-kiri chaser

This is what the Brexit fight is really about, once you strip out all the nonsense. They want to make this a meaner, less diverse country

And it's why the resistance to them never died out and looks capable of stopping it. Because we know what the stakes are.

So when they say 'aren't you worried about the rise of the populist right if you have another referendum', I think: no, we've lived under the populist right since June 2016.

What worries me is a significant deterioration in this country's living standards amid churned-out anti-immigrant rhetoric

And that's why we don't give these f***ers an inch


----------



## stockwellcat.

Excellent comment


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Before 2010 :Hilarious
> 
> What when Liebour was in power. :Hilarious
> 
> The UK had high unemployment figures back then as it was more attractive to be on benefits because you got more money than a working person.


Well spotted.

Do you ever bother to do any research? Maybe start with that damning UN report?

Millions of people on zero hour contracts, which are now classed as 'full employment' . Foodbanks are everywhere & 2/3 of people now on benefits ARE IN WORK.

*UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says*

Poverty envoy says callous policies driven by political desire for social re-engineering

• 'I'm scared to eat sometimes'

• Women reveal impact of cuts

• Children tell UN: 'It's unfair'

https://www.theguardian.com/society...as-inflicted-great-misery-on-citizens-un-says


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Excellent comment
> View attachment 382068


And herein lies the problem!. People in denial about the complexities of leaving the EU without inflicting great harm to ourselves.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Fun loving, outward looking etc. country? When and where was that then?
> 
> It wasn't the U.K. before the referendum, if it was we wouldn't have had one. I thought it was brexiteers who look back with rose coloured glasses, it seems Remainers have an even worse memory.


It was heading towards a fun loving outward looking country. Even David Cameron of all people contributed with his support for legalising Gay marriage. I'm not Gay by the way but 100% support Gay rights.

I have a very good memory. I remember when Thatcher introduced Clause 28 for example before the Poll Tax. The elderly were told to wrap up warm and wear woolly hats if they couldn't afford to heat their homes. The people who lost their jobs through policy were treated like lepers and scroungers.

John Major was certainly more forward thinking. One of his best policies was the Sunday trading compromise and of course his contribution towards the NI peace process.

By the end of the'90s we had the Blair government who reversed Clause 28, introduced the hunting ban amongst other good policies.

They were good times. The Berlin Wall came down and Nelson Mandela was finally released from prison. Great music too, none of this X Factor/Voice rubbish.

This rotten lot are determined to drag the UK back into the dark ages, a time I'd rather forget, ie: the peak of Thatcher in the mid '80s when I was out of work.

"Britain's" imperial past is nothing to be proud of, far from it.

What the hell is to celebrate about that? Sweet FA.

This is the kind of bull***t kids are being taught. Not about Europe but the "Royal" family.

No wonder the rest of the world treat the UK as a joke. They can't even bear to give up imperial measurements they're so backward.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> And herein lies the problem!. People in denial about the complexities of leaving the EU without inflicting great harm to ourselves.


Just be careful for what you wish for. I don't think a second referendum if it happens will yeild the results remain want it to yeild and even if it did leave voters will cry foul like the remainers done and want a 3rd referendum. A second referendum will be far from a complete resolution though it will divide the country even more and cause more divisions and economic harm.

Corbyn wants a General Election. He is ticking off things he wants to do from his bucket list before he leaves this world. Rebel MP on the back benches to Party Leader to PM. His form of Brexit is worse than May's at least with May's options we have the choice of a clean break brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


That isn't the UK at all and never has been. What aload of tosh.
Remainers spreading falseness now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> That isn't the UK at all and never has been. What aload of tosh.
> Remainers spreading falseness now.


True or not, it's better than the divided country we are now and will be for a long time.


----------



## rona

She's at least trying to keep her other promises. I don't know how she's found the time 
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...work-right-for-british-workers-and-businesses

It's not perfect but it's a huge step forward


----------



## Arnie83

One thing that is causing me to shake my head with wide-eyed incredulity is how Boris Johnson - of the £350 million per week Brexit NHS dividend Bus - is saying that a No Deal Brexit is not going to be any problem at all ... and _some people still actually believe him_. What does it take for them to see him for what he is and treat his words accordingly?


----------



## Snoringbear

Arnie83 said:


> One thing that is causing me to shake my head with wide-eyed incredulity is how Boris Johnson - of the £350 million per week Brexit NHS dividend Bus - is saying that a No Deal Brexit is not going to be any problem at all ... and _some people still actually believe him_. What does it take for them to see him for what he is and treat his words accordingly?


The reality of a no deal Brexit, I guess. Although by then it's a little too late.


----------



## mewtoo

Has anyone been fooled by the phrase "crash out"?

There is no such thing as "crashing out".

It is not possible to "crash out" of the EU; only to leave it.


----------



## mewtoo

Was anyone fooled into believing that a bus had a promise written on the side of it?

"Let's fund our NHS instead".

It is a suggestion.

"Let's go to the cinema tonight".
"Let's holiday in Kefalonia next year".
"Let's have fish and chips. Oh hang on. How about Chinese food? No, let's go and have an Indian. What do you reckon?"

Suggestions.

"We are definitely going to the cinema tonight".
"We're holidaying in Kefalonia next year. Sue me if we don't."
"I promise to you that we will eat Indian food."

Promises.


----------



## Snoringbear

“Let’s take back control”

Presumably a suggestion.


----------



## mewtoo

What a fascinating time to be alive.
The revolution has begun and the war is raging. People everywhere are getting wise to the horror which globalism brings.

The internet has changed everything.

In 1975, the people were lied to about what they were voting for. They were told that they would be voting to stay in the Common Market, but all along it was really about creating political union.
There was no internet to make it easy to find out the facts.

Now, the internet has made it easy for people to find important information. Anyone with time and inclination can find out about reality, instead of relying on lies told to them by their leaders.

Anyone can visit Youtube to see a video of Guy Verhofstadt demanding more and more sovereignty from each EU state.
Anyone can read about Coudenhove-Kalergi's plans for the European peoples.
Anyone can find out about the EU army, dishonestly dismissed by Nick Clegg as a "dangerous fantasy".
Anyone can read about the plans to incorporate North Africa into the EU, and eventually all of Africa.
Anyone can read about the EU's dabbling in Ukraine.
Anyone can ready about the assaults on freedoms across the EU.
Anyone can read all about the corruption these globalists use to gain enormous wealth and power.
Anyone can read about the dictatorial nature of the EU and how it uses a "parliament" as a curtain to hide it's real workings.

No wonder the EU wants to crack down on what can be said on the internet. No wonder that Articles 11 and 13 exist. No wonder that those who talk about what is going on are de-platformed and de-monetised.

The thing which brought us the horrors of the 20th Century is back again, in plain view now thanks to the internet, instead of being hidden by the collusion of big government, big business and corporate media.

What a time to be alive.

If we play our cards right, our children will not be drafted into an EU army to die for Juncker. They may even grow up being able to speak freely about anything they want, and be able to choose the people who make the laws under which they live.


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> "Let's take back control"
> 
> Presumably a suggestion.


Absolutely.

"Let's take back control" = let's vote to leave the EU.
"Let's not take back control" = let's vote to stay in the EU.


----------



## Snoringbear

The Treaty Of Rome 1957 details an increasing political union. It’s a common leave lie that this was not known at the time of the 1975 referendum.


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> The Treaty Of Rome 1957 details an increasing political union. It's a common leave lie that this was not known at the time of the 1975 referendum.


It's nothing of the sort.
The internet makes it easy for information to spread.

Before the internet, people would rely on what they saw on the news or read in the paper. In order to find out specific information, a person had to spend enormous effort and time.

Few people knew, in 1975, that the vote was a cover for entry into a superstate. People thought it was to continue as member of a trading organisation. This is why they voted for it.
This is why one of Heath's civil servants said at the the time that by the time the people have realised what they have voted for, it would be too late. He was almost correct.


----------



## Snoringbear

I agree. The internet does allow information to spread.

https://infacts.org/mythbusts/voters-werent-conned-1975-referendum/


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> I agree. The internet does allow information to spread.
> 
> https://infacts.org/mythbusts/voters-werent-conned-1975-referendum/


The link you provided is merely giving its opinion, and is debunked by the very comments at the bottom of the article itself :Hilarious

The question asked during that referendum was as follows: 
"The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.
*Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
*
The question was not:
"The government is pretending that this referendum is about staying a member of a trading organisation, but really it's about giving our sovereignty away to a foreign government, over time.
*Do you think that the United Kingdom should be taken by stealth into a pan-European superstate?*"

Nice try, but you're not supposed to believe what the many "fact-checking" sites (which sprung up over the last few years) tell you, since what's happened is that professional liars, with funding, set up a bunch of sites, usually with the word "fact" in the title, to make it easy for people to believe what they are told. Even Snopes was corrupted.
Well, you *are* supposed to believe them, but you're not, if you see what I mean :Hilarious

Go and ask a bunch of old people what they thought the vote in 1975 was about. Nearly all of them will say "common market membership". Sometimes you'll meet one who was a little more clued up, and voted against it.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://medium.com/@UKIPNFKN/uk-vot...political-union-with-the-rest-of-2f565b972cd6


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> The link you provided is merely giving its opinion, and is debunked by the very comments at the bottom of the article itself :Hilarious


Would you care to give links to sites that provide impatial confirmation of the points *you* are making?


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> https://medium.com/@UKIPNFKN/uk-vot...political-union-with-the-rest-of-2f565b972cd6


There you go again.
You post an article which makes the bizarre assumption that the electorate is highly educated in matters political.
It was not highly educated in 1975 because if a person wanted to know more than what they were told in a newspaper or on the telly, they had to more or less give up their life to go and find out.

Do you think that people in 1975 were of such poor quality, with the memory fresh of fighting against foreign domination, that they would knowingly vote to hand over their nation's sovereignty, confining their descendants to serfdom under an army of foreign bureaucrats whom they would not be able to vote for nor remove?

If the people knew what they were really voting for, then why did Foreign & Commonwealth Office document 30/1048, which was classified for decades, detail exactly what was going to happen, and predict that it would take 30 years for the people to realise what they voted for?


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> Would you care to give links to sites that provide impatial confirmation of the points *you* are making?


What is it I've just been saying about how the internet makes it easy for people to find out their own info? :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...s-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/


----------



## Snoringbear

They don't seem that educated now in political matters.

Churchill was a keen proponent of a united Europe, while he didn't originally think that we should join, it became a necessity once we became the poor man of Europe. While it seems popular now to bang on about WW2 and Germany as some kind of fictitious enemy, common sense back then would be to avoid such conflicts as the EU has successfully done.

Regarding the document by an anonymous author, just seems like a confirmation of what was originally said regarding the referendum..


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Would you care to give links to sites that provide impatial confirmation of the points *you* are making?


From what I remember at the time , ordinary people got the impression that it was a Common Market , because that's what it was generally referred to as and Market being the word for selling and buying goods . Perhaps people were pretty ignorant then and not well informed or didn't read the manifesto so voted to Remain.
The impression was that it would help us out of our problems as the country was in a mess and would heap rich rewards .
Considering how bad the 70s , 80 and early nineties ,was I can see why people weren't impressed.

I dont think that people then anticipated the amount of legislation that the EU would introduced.

The manifesto is online if any body wants to read it .

*THE NEW DEAL*

The better terms which Britain will enjoy if we stay in the Common Market were secured only after long and tough negotiations.

These started in April 1974 and did not end until March of this year.

On March 10 and 11 the Heads of Government met in Dublin and clinched the bargain. On March 18 the Prime Minister was able to make this announcements:

'I believe that our renegotiation objectives have been substantially though not completely achieved.'

*What were the main objectives to which Mr. Wilson referred? The most important were FOOD and MONEY and JOBS.*

*OUR PARTNERS
IN EUROPE*

With Britain, there are nine other members of the Common Market. The others are Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands.

Their combined population is over 250 million.

*The Market is one of the biggest concentrations of industrial and trading power in the world. Its has vast resources of skill, experience and inventiveness*.

The aims of the Common Market are:


To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 382112
> 
> https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...s-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/


NOT HIM AGAIN! Boring, boring, boring ......


----------



## Snoringbear

Brexiter David Davis seemed pretty ignorant of how the EU works.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ket-trade-deals-unaware-mistake-a7136121.html


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> What is it I've just been saying about how the internet makes it easy for people to find out their own info? :Hilarious


M'dear, I work in IT. I do this stuff for a living. If I wanted to, I could point you to sites that support (complete with 'evidence') any manner of outlandish claims, from the earth being flat to shapeshifting alien lizards secretly ruling the world.

However, that is not my point. My point is that it is considered very poor scientific (or historic) method to make unorthodox statements that are supposed to be accepted as fact by the reader without any attempt to reference sources that support those facts. So far, I don't recall you posting any links to supporting evidence for any of your claims. Asserting that others should be able to find the evidence on the internet is not a valid response, as the internet is a vast resource where slightly varying search terms can throw up completely different results, so the chances of any of us ending up reading the same sources as you is statistically very slim. Therefore I'm sure all the posters on this thread would appreciate your taking a few extra seconds to post a few relevant links rather than being told they should partake in a fruitless wild goose chase that is likely to result in sources you wouldn't approve of.

TL: DR version - you're making the points, so the onus is on you, not the reader, to provide the evidence


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

mewtoo said:


> Anyone can read about Coudenhove-Kalergi's plans for the European peoples.


True: but no-one I know (other than me [and you I assume]) has ever heard of it.


----------



## kimthecat

P.S. about the internet and information . The Right to be Forgotten means we ( introduced by the EU ) do not have access to certain information and in a way is censorship.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’ve heard of Kalergi.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> From what I remember at the time , ordinary people got the impression that it was a Common Market , because that's what it was generally referred to as and Market being the word for selling and buying goods .


I've heard a lot of people say that all we wanted was the Common Market and that the EU had gone further than that, which is an arguable point of view, but it makes me wonder how many of those who voted Leave actually did want to leave the Single Market. The table below suggests it was only 35%, which I find interesting when I hear description of what "everyone knew" they voted for!












kimthecat said:


> *The Market is one of the biggest concentrations of industrial and trading power in the world. Its has vast resources of skill, experience and inventiveness*.
> 
> The aims of the Common Market are:
> 
> 
> To bring together the peoples of Europe.
> 
> To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
> 
> To promote growth and boost world trade.
> 
> To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
> 
> To help maintain peace and freedom.


I think these have all happened. I'm guessing that you don't?


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> They don't seem that educated now in political matters.
> 
> Churchill was a keen proponent of a united Europe, while he didn't originally think that we should join, it became a necessity once we became the poor man of Europe. While it seems popular now to bang on about WW2 and Germany as some kind of fictitious enemy, common sense back then would be to avoid such conflicts as the EU has successfully done.
> 
> Regarding the document by an anonymous author, just seems like a confirmation of what was originally said regarding the referendum..


Churchill was FOR cooperation between European countries but AGAINST the idea of a superstate which contained Britain.

The EU has not provided a conflict-free Europe; this was provided by a combination of democracy + NATO.

Since the EU is anti-democracy, and increasingly so, and since NATO is being undermined in favour of the creation of the EU army, war is more, not less, likely. This is why war is coming back to Europe. For example, in the UK there is now no longer a scenario in which armed conflict is going to happen. The same is also true in some other countries in Europe.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> True: but no-one I know (other than me [and you I assume]) has ever heard of it.


I have - years ago. Very scary as you now have political parties like the Greek Golden Dawn who embrace his thinking.


----------



## mewtoo

Calvine said:


> True: but no-one I know (other than me [and you I assume]) has ever heard of it.


Prior to the internet, the only people who had heard of Coudenhove-Kalergi were some EU employees and leaders, some people with a specific interest in that part of history, or German people who had read Praktischer Idealismus. In other words, very few people.
Knowledge of his name is now fairly common, with it being mentioned in the comment sections of mainstream websites.

All people have to do now is post something about him on their Facebook page and BOOM - that's fifty more people who know about him. Before, you'd have to buy fifty of his books, translate them into English, and then post them through your mates' letterboxes.


----------



## Snoringbear

mewtoo said:


> Churchill was FOR cooperation between European countries but AGAINST the idea of a superstate which contained Britain.
> 
> The EU has not provided a conflict-free Europe; this was provided by a combination of democracy + NATO.
> 
> Since the EU is anti-democracy, and increasingly so, and since NATO is being undermined in favour of the creation of the EU army, war is more, not less, likely. This is why war is coming back to Europe. For example, in the UK there is now no longer a scenario in which armed conflict is going to happen. The same is also true in some other countries in Europe.


Yep, I mentioned in my post that Churchill didn't want to join. However, he didn't anticipate how much we would decline economically which led to us begging to join.

The purpose of NATO was to defend against the Soviet Union, nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe, other than unity as a by product.


----------



## mewtoo

Magyarmum said:


> I have - years ago. Very scary as you now have political parties like the Greek Golden Dawn who embrace his thinking.


Golden Dawn are AGAINST his thinking :Facepalm They certainly haven't embraced it and never would, because his ideology is the opposite of theirs.
It's the EU which holds the same ideology as Kalergi.

Kalergi created an ideology called pan-Europeanism, which aimed to consolidate the countries of Europe into a single political entity (a superstate). The EU was borne out of this ideology.

The 20th Century saw the emergence of several people who had genocidal intent - Kalergi was one of them. Be careful not to vote for people who share his ideology. But hey, telling an EU aficionado that Kalergi was evil is like trying to tell a Jehovah's Witness that the Earth is billions of years old.


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> Yep, I mentioned in my post that Churchill didn't want to join. However, he didn't anticipate how much we would decline economically which led to us begging to join.
> 
> The purpose of NATO was to defend against the Soviet Union, nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe, other than unity as a by product.


"Begging to join" was back in the day when almost everyone had the idea that this new organisation was about trade and cooperation. Therefore, since trade is the way in which countries pull themselves out of poverty, it made sense to join an organisation which would facilitate this trade. It always makes sense to make trade easy and fair, regardless of the time.

The purpose of NATO was, as you said, to defend against the Soviet Union, but ALSO to cement the member countries together in a shared purpose, which they would be unlikely to break by going to war with each other.

However, the main cause of peace in Europe was democracy. Democracies tend not to go to war with one another.

As I said, the EU has made war more likely. It has actually guaranteed it.


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> M'dear, I work in IT. I do this stuff for a living. If I wanted to, I could point you to sites that support (complete with 'evidence') any manner of outlandish claims, from the earth being flat to shapeshifting alien lizards secretly ruling the world.
> 
> However, that is not my point. My point is that it is considered very poor scientific (or historic) method to make unorthodox statements that are supposed to be accepted as fact by the reader without any attempt to reference sources that support those facts. So far, I don't recall you posting any links to supporting evidence for any of your claims. Asserting that others should be able to find the evidence on the internet is not a valid response, as the internet is a vast resource where slightly varying search terms can throw up completely different results, so the chances of any of us ending up reading the same sources as you is statistically very slim. Therefore I'm sure all the posters on this thread would appreciate your taking a few extra seconds to post a few relevant links rather than being told they should partake in a fruitless wild goose chase that is likely to result in sources you wouldn't approve of.
> 
> TL: DR version - you're making the points, so the onus is on you, not the reader, to provide the evidence


If you work in IT, then you know how easy it is to use a search engine. Therefore you would know how easy it would be for someone to see something, and then Google it. Knowledge is more valuable when it is discovered through effort, rather than given.

The provision of links is impractical. Being in IT, and also being a human, you will know that people read things, but don't record the locations of the web pages upon which they read them.

I don't expect anyone to spend 20 minutes finding a link for me which they read two years ago just in case I am too lazy to take responsibility for my own education.

An alternative of course is to use this system to protect from hurty feels: "anyone who doesn't provide a link doesn't have to be believed, so I can protect my beliefs from improvement in this way".

There are no wild goose chases on the internet though: read anything and everything; you'll learn something either way.


----------



## Snoringbear

We begged to join during an economic recession. Only several European countries were involved in the inception of NATO. I agree that peace in Europe was down to democracy, that’s what the EU created across nations and has worked successfully since. I’m not sure how that’s going to create war now? Other than the desire to break down the EU which seems popular amongst leavers, right ringers, USA, Russia and Isis.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Around and around in circles we go.


----------



## KittenKong

Good coming from a Tory.


----------



## mewtoo

Snoringbear said:


> We begged to join during an economic recession. Only several European countries were involved in the inception of NATO. I agree that peace in Europe was down to democracy, that's what the EU created across nations and has worked successfully since. I'm not sure how that's going to create war now? Other than the desire to break down the EU which seems popular amongst leavers, right ringers, USA, Tudsia and Isis.


The EU has not created democracy across nations. That's an oxymoron.
The EU is a dictatorship, albeit a very clever one which provides a facade of democracy sufficient to please those who want to support it.
"Look - the EU has a parliament - it must be a democracy!"

So you don't see how the EU makes war more likely.
Expanding to the East - see Ukraine for details of that one.
Expanding to the South - will the incorporation of North Africa go peacefully? Was Gaddafi removed peacefully? Was Libya not reduced to a bloody mess?
Has the importation of millions upon millions of non-Europeans created peaceful societies in Germany, France and Sweden? The UK? Those countries face war because of what the EU has done to further its existence.
Creating an army - will an army under the command of faceless, un-elected bureaucrats be a good thing? Hmmmm?

The EU is just one manifestation of the evil of globalism.

Every so often, this evil "thing" pops up in Europe. We had the evil of socialism/ communism, then came Nazism, then came globalism.
The internet took control away from those who controlled the flow of information and put it in the hands of the people. Now, without the cloak provided by corporate media, this globalism is out in the open, and it is going full speed ahead to consolidate control over people before they can do anything about it.

The way for the people of the world to get along, currently, is by creating democratic societies which trade and cooperate together. That more and more people are realising this is why there is this current nationalist revolution. People don't want to lose their rights and safety so that oligarchs and bureaucrats can get rich and have more power. Who do you care more about - your children or the wealth of Juncker? Vote accordingly.

ISIS: the EU is helping ISIS, not hindering it. Aaaaagh!


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> Churchill was FOR cooperation between European countries but AGAINST the idea of a superstate which contained Britain.


Churchill, 14th May 1947, speech at Albert Hall:
"If Europe united is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family."​
I don't know what he said about a 'superstate' but this suggests to me that he thought the UK should be involved.



mewtoo said:


> The EU has not provided a conflict-free Europe; this was provided by a combination of democracy + NATO.


You'd be amazed how many European leaders think very differently.

Also: Nobel Peace Prize 2012 goes to ... the European Union. Their reasoning:

"The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2012 is to be awarded to the European Union (EU). The union and its forerunners have for over six decades *contributed to *the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe."​
I've bolded the pertinent phrase in this, because I would certainly not be silly enough to dismiss the contributions of organisations such as NATO.



mewtoo said:


> Since the EU is anti-democracy, and increasingly so, and since NATO is being undermined in favour of the creation of the EU army, war is more, not less, likely. This is why war is coming back to Europe. For example, in the UK there is now no longer a scenario in which armed conflict is going to happen. The same is also true in some other countries in Europe.


I would posit that the reason there is no longer a scenario where armed conflict would occur in the UK* is because the various tribes and kingdoms that existed for most of our history have been settled under an accepted administrative organisation for a long time. It is the only way, short of overwhelming force, to all but eradicate the possibility of such conflict. It is also precisely what a supranational organisation like the EU seeks to replicate. We are talking 'countries' rather than 'kingdoms' but it's the exact same process that needs to happen.

*unless, via Brexit, we cause the reinstatement of a border in Northern Ireland


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> Good coming from a Tory.
> 
> View attachment 382137


These people are amazing, aren't they.
They put a remainer in charge of Brexit, then allow her to spend 2.5 years colluding with the EU on the best way to keep us in the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Good coming from a Tory.
> 
> View attachment 382137


I have to say - and I don't like to be hyperbolic - but May is acting remarkably like a dictator in this. She is trying to undermine the sovereignty of Parliament by taking this so near to the wire that they have no choice but to back her 'deal'. That is no way for a democratic Prime Minister to behave.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> These people are amazing, aren't they.
> They put a remainer in charge of Brexit, then allow her to spend 2.5 years colluding with the EU on the best way to keep us in the EU.


:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Even the Americans no longer take the UK seriously.

They're seen as a laughing stock even from their close allies, let alone Europe and the world over.

It was only six years ago since the London 2012 Olympics. How proud was that. Would it have been more successful had the UK not been in the EU? Something to think about.

And was Germany more German during the 1936 Berlin Olympics?

Seriously is Brexit anything to be proud of?

How things change in such a short time.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1974884885960666&id=428305627285274

Now the UK is sleepwalking into a fascist dictatorship with a PM who shows similar personality traits to Adolf Hitler.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382138
> 
> 
> Around and around in circles we go.
> 
> View attachment 382139


----------



## stockwellcat.

Put on your tinfoil hats









They're here.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382138
> 
> 
> Around and around in circles we go.
> 
> View attachment 382139


Before your time but this was funny.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Churchill, 14th May 1947, speech at Albert Hall:
> "If Europe united is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family."​
> I don't know what he said about a 'superstate' but this suggests to me that he thought the UK should be involved.


He wanted the UK to be involved in a Europe which cooperated together. He is aligned with the leave voters in this regard.
Cooperate, trade, be friendly, but NOT be ruled by a common government.



Arnie83 said:


> You'd be amazed how many European leaders think very differently.
> 
> Also: Nobel Peace Prize 2012 goes to ... the European Union. Their reasoning:
> 
> "The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2012 is to be awarded to the European Union (EU). The union and its forerunners have for over six decades *contributed to *the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe."​
> I've bolded the pertinent phrase in this, because I would certainly not be silly enough to dismiss the contributions of organisations such as NATO.


What, you mean that a globalist organisation has given an award for peace to another globalist organisation? I'm shocked :Hilarious

Come on dude, you weren't really fooled by that, were you?



Arnie83 said:


> I would posit that the reason there is no longer a scenario where armed conflict would occur in the UK* is because the various tribes and kingdoms that existed for most of our history have been settled under an accepted administrative organisation for a long time. It is the only way, short of overwhelming force, to all but eradicate the possibility of such conflict. It is also precisely what a supranational organisation like the EU seeks to replicate. We are talking 'countries' rather than 'kingdoms' but it's the exact same process that needs to happen.
> 
> *unless, via Brexit, we cause the reinstatement of a border in Northern Ireland


I don't know if I missed out the word "not" before, but there's actually no longer a scenario in which armed conflict will NOT occur in the UK. It's inevitable now. It's not going to happen tomorrow, but if you have children or grandchildren, you could do worse than impress upon them the value of self-sufficiency, how to build a fire, read a map, erect a tent, and so on. War will be here in 20 to 40 years. The Balkanisation of the country is well underway.

Europe is too big and has too many different peoples, languages, and cultures, to be consolidated together as if were are all the same type of robot. The kingdoms of the UK were consolidated by violence. Do you want the countries of the EU to be consolidated by violence?

What happens when the EU Superstate and the SINO-RUSSIAN Superstate both claim the same oil well? Fishing grounds? Island? Etc? Would they go to war? Damn right, they would.

Don't pretend that globalism is a good thing. It's not a John Lennon song about not having countries. Reality is somewhat more brutal than that naivety.

The British nation provides a boundary within which our people can live and practice our own culture and shape our own future. Whilst doing this, we can and will trade with, cooperate with, and be friends with those of other nations.


----------



## Snoringbear

mewtoo said:


> The EU has not created democracy across nations. That's an oxymoron.
> The EU is a dictatorship, albeit a very clever one which provides a facade of democracy sufficient to please those who want to support it.
> "Look - the EU has a parliament - it must be a democracy!"
> 
> So you don't see how the EU makes war more likely.
> Expanding to the East - see Ukraine for details of that one.
> Expanding to the South - will the incorporation of North Africa go peacefully? Was Gaddafi removed peacefully? Was Libya not reduced to a bloody mess?
> Has the importation of millions upon millions of non-Europeans created peaceful societies in Germany, France and Sweden? The UK? Those countries face war because of what the EU has done to further its existence.
> Creating an army - will an army under the command of faceless, un-elected bureaucrats be a good thing? Hmmmm?
> 
> The EU is just one manifestation of the evil of globalism.
> 
> Every so often, this evil "thing" pops up in Europe. We had the evil of socialism/ communism, then came Nazism, then came globalism.
> The internet took control away from those who controlled the flow of information and put it in the hands of the people. Now, without the cloak provided by corporate media, this globalism is out in the open, and it is going full speed ahead to consolidate control over people before they can do anything about it.
> 
> The way for the people of the world to get along, currently, is by creating democratic societies which trade and cooperate together. That more and more people are realising this is why there is this current nationalist revolution. People don't want to lose their rights and safety so that oligarchs and bureaucrats can get rich and have more power. Who do you care more about - your children or the wealth of Juncker? Vote accordingly.
> 
> ISIS: the EU is helping ISIS, not hindering it. Aaaaagh!


The UK was fundamental in the accession of Eastern European countries being admitted to the EU.
Africa is not in Europe , so I don't know where you're going with that one.
The influx of non-Europeans coming into Europe are actually refugees coming from war torn countries which the UK have provided the armaments to bomb them out of their homes and countries.
You've already mentioned the Kalergi project and seem to have an issue with non-Europeans. There's a common thread there, care to elaborate?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Before your time but this was funny.
> 
> View attachment 382151


No. In my era. I was a young boy then (10 when the show started).


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Put on your tinfoil hats
> View attachment 382152
> 
> 
> They're here.
> View attachment 382150


They been here a long, long time


----------



## KittenKong

Can't believe Robert Peston once worked for the BBC.

His analysis is spot on:


Here is a tale of two mysteries.

First the PM repeated today that talks are going on with the EU to provide more legal and political assurances that the Ireland backstop, if implemented, will be of short and finite duration.

But try as I might, I can find anyone on the other side of the Channel who is aware of any such talks or who expects any such talks.

Here is what one well placed source told me: "There are no ongoing contacts, no meetings foreseen with the UK".

Which would imply that by the time the fabled meaningful vote actually takes place in the week of 14 January, nothing about her Brexit plan will have changed - and MPs will consign that plan in short order to the dustbin of history with an overwhelming vote against it.

Only the PM knows why she would prefer to endure that humiliation in four weeks rather than this week.

Wouldn't it be better to rip off the plaster today - and, as her predecessor David Cameron has told her, move swiftly to building a consensus in parliament around another plan?

Unless that is she is deliberately running down the clock to 29 March to increase the force of her argument that it's her deal or a chaotic no-deal Brexit.

Surely, since she insists she always puts the nation rather than her own interest first, she would not cynically be endeavouring to raise the stakes so as to increase the prospect (however remote) of eventual approval for a deal with which her own reputation is inextricably entwined.

So that's the first mystery.

The second is why the Cabinet will meet tomorrow to step up planning for and spending on a no-deal Brexit, given that pretty much every minster (not quite all) regards a no-deal Brexit at the due date as economic self-harm on a scale the UK has never before inflicted on itself.

The point is that most ministers believe - as Amber Rudd and David Gauke have articulated - that the priority for the cabinet should be to work day and night to prevent a no-deal Brexit, not spend money on making such a Brexit a bit less costly than it would (in their view) inevitably be.

Here is the best manifestation of how far the UK is from having any sensible safety net against a no-deal Brexit: the Treasury has allocated £1.5bn for spending on contingencies this year and £2bn for next year, but ONLY £500m has so far been spent.

So although the cabinet will tomorrow announce an acceleration of spending - including, I understand, on a public information plan to warn us all about what contingency planning we should all do, both in our private and business lives - it is simply too late to avoid a grave shock to the economy, our prosperity, to our ability (for a while) to procure the goods and medicines on which we depend.

Even the PM more-or-less admitted this, when she confirmed that as and when Dover is degraded into an appallingly narrow bottleneck for vital imports and exports of goods - as a result of new customs checks - trade would have to be diverted to other ports that may or may not have the appropriate capacity, and which will not under any scenario be able to handle all the jammed up traded.

In the longer term - according to well-placed Whitehall sources - the Port of Dover would have to be massively expanded and much of Kent concreted over, so that our most important entrepot could handle necessary new customs checks.

But can you imagine this House of Commons - which is implacably opposed to no-deal - approving the necessary legislation to nationalise Dover and its environs.

Truthfully I think that is even less likely than Theresa May saying any time soon that when she said Brexit means Brexit we all misheard her and she actually meant Brexit means no-Brexit.

We do live in strange times. But there are some leaps of imagination I cannot make.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Seeing as this thread seems to be going like others before it I am hiding myself away


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat. We'll be kicked off the thread for posting too many memes soon


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well remainer May has categorically refused to extend article 50 in Parliament today. Period.

So the MP's either accept her half hearted remainer deal or accept a WTO deal.

It was pointed out legally a second referendum cannot be called as the rules behind referendums state that a second referendum should have been agreed to before the first vote that being in 2016. Dame somebody or other pointed this out from the conservative side of the house. I didn't catch her name I am affraid. Rules on referendums are a stinker aren't they


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> Even the Americans no longer take the UK seriously.
> 
> They're seen as a laughing stock even from their close allies, let alone Europe and the world over.
> 
> It was only six years ago since the London 2012 Olympics. How proud was that. Would it have been more successful had the UK not been in the EU? Something to think about.
> 
> And was Germany more German during the 1936 Berlin Olympics?
> 
> Seriously is Brexit anything to be proud of?
> 
> How things change in such a short time.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1974884885960666&id=428305627285274
> 
> Now the UK is sleepwalking into a fascist dictatorship with a PM who has similar personality traits to Adolf Hitler.


After the Brexit vote, the Americans had great admiration for us.

The American government has now, as part of its job of preparing for future scenarios, realised that they'll be sending troops back over to the UK and Europe once again to save us from ourselves.

Interesting about the fascist thing. The UK government, as is the EU, is a corporatist entity, so that's the economic side of fascism sorted out. Free speech in the UK and across the EU has been abolished and diminishes over time. That's the free speech side sorted out. Our EU-supporting LibLabCon governments have filled the country with cameras and record aspects of our communications, and we no longer control our own laws or regulations. That's the totalitarian side sorted out.

It's more of a mash-up of fascism and communism though. The two are very similar, with communism being the even more evil of the pair.

We're not leaving the EU if "they" have anything to do with it, but if we manage to get out, then we'll be able to roll back this nasty fascist-communism mix and get our rights back once more.

If you support the 4th Reich, be pro-EU. If not, then support the UK, and the people in the EU who want out of it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat. We'll be kicked off the thread for posting too many memes soon


Back to the debate then


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> He wanted the UK to be involved in a Europe which cooperated together. He is aligned with the leave voters in this regard.
> Cooperate, trade, be friendly, but NOT be ruled by a common government.


Can you point me at the quote where he makes this clear, a bit like I quoted the bit where he didn't?



mewtoo said:


> What, you mean that a globalist organisation has given an award for peace to another globalist organisation? I'm shocked :Hilarious
> 
> Come on dude, you weren't really fooled by that, were you?


Apparently yes, I was. As are most of the leaders of the European nations. I suspect we simple folk just don't have your perspicacity. Our bad.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I also learnt from watching Parliament today that the PM can schedule a debate on a motion to hold a vote of no confidence towards the Government at her discretion. So this could be after 29th March 2019.


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn is going to propose a no confidence thingy. BBC news just said .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn is going to propose a no confidence thingy. BBC news just said .


Let him. DUP don't support it and he needs DUP to push it across the line to have enough to do this. It is up to the Government if a debate on this takes place.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Let him. DUP don't support it and he needs DUP to push it across the line to have enough to do this. It is up to the Government if a debate on this takes place.


SOrry I might have got that wrong. The press say he ditched it an hour before the proposal . I read the subtitles and theyre not very good when its live.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46596851


----------



## Jonescat

He has done it, and May has walked out of Parliament. It is in her as PM and not the Government. Perhaps the little darlings will have to work over Christmas after all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> He has done it, and May has walked out of Parliament. It is in her as PM and not the Government. Perhaps the little darlings will have to work over Christmas after all.


Corbyn cannot call no confidence in May as PM only her party can do that. Whoops. Corbyn has boo booed. That's why she walked out as he cannot do that. :Hilarious


----------



## Jonescat

Has he? Why can't he do this? The last no-confidence vote was in her as leader of the Tory Party, this is as PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> Has he? Why can't he do this? The last no-confidence vote was in her as leader of the Tory Party, this is as PM.


Because only the Party can call a no confidence vote against their leader. Even the SNP have called it a shoddy stunt.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh it looks like his motion is to take place tomorrow. This is going to be funny. Labour is confused about what he has done.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

I think there will be a Labour Leadership challenge taking place soon.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh it looks like his motion is to take place tomorrow. This is going to be funny. Labour is confused about what he has done.


So is ITV , their subtitles are even worse thaan the BBCs . The picture was Corbyn talking in parliament and the subtitles said A man admitted killing his wife and MIL . If is it wasnt for the fact two women tragically died , I would be laughing my head off .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> So is ITV , their subtitles are even worse thaan the BBCs . The picture was Corbyn talking in parliament and the subtitles said A man admitted killing his wife and MIL . If is it wasnt for the fact two women tragically died , I would be laughing my head off .


The fact is his no confidence motion in May being PM doesn't affect anything as only the conservatives can do this. Like only Labour can do this against Corbyn. His motion means nothing and nothing will come of it. May just walked out no doubt laughing Maybot style. She will still be in power no what tomorrow night as the no confidence vote is not in the Government.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The fact is his no confidence motion in May being PM doesn't affect anything as only the conservatives can do this. Like only Labour can do this against Corbyn. His motion means nothing and nothing will come of it. May just walked out no doubt laughing Maybot style.


Im not sure but it looks like the press are saying he( the Opposition) can bring a motion against the Government and not against the PM .


----------



## Jonescat

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @*Peston* 3m3 minutes ago

Labour chief whip Nick Brown just told parliamentary Labour Party that @*jeremycorbyn* will table no-confidence motion in entire government under Fixed Term Parliament Act if @*theresa_may* refuses to give time tomorrow for no-confidence *vote* in her, Labour MP tells me.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Im not sure but it looks like the press are saying he( the Opposition) can bring a motion against the Government and not against the PM .


That's right.
He cannot call a motion against the PM and has.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> *Robert Peston*‏Verified account @*Peston* 3m3 minutes ago
> 
> Labour chief whip Nick Brown just told parliamentary Labour Party that @*jeremycorbyn* will table no-confidence motion in entire government under Fixed Term Parliament Act if @*theresa_may* refuses to give time tomorrow for no-confidence *vote* in her, Labour MP tells me.


But he cannot call a vote of no confidence against May as PM. He's a plonker.


----------



## Jonescat

Well to be fair, this is beyond my level of political expertise now, but he looks to have done it.


----------



## kimthecat

I dont think Corbyn has done anything yet. I think he threatened too unless she brought forward the Brexit Vote which she did .


----------



## Jonescat

I think it is non-binding but is a breadcrumb trail to a vote of no confidence in the Government, that would bring them down if they lost it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I dont think Corbyn has done anything yet.


It is going to back fire on him
John McDonnell says they have just finished a meeting about it.








This is going to throw any credibility Labour have out the window.

SNP are calling this a shoddy stunt.


----------



## kimthecat

@Jonescat I don't see the point of it if it non binding.

It was popular in Victorian times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_votes_of_no_confidence_in_British_governments

@stockwellcat.  Got any popcorn left over ?


----------



## Snoringbear

While it’s not going to change anything, it will essentially expose she has no support, assuming the vote goes against her. In short it’s a means of drawing forward the meaningfull vote.


----------



## kimthecat

( Sorry Ive got Memeitis )

I feel like this


----------



## Jonescat

Well I am a bit lost tbh, but I think the more they embarrass her the more likely they will get enough votes to bring the Govt down in the next vote. It also makes it less and less likely that the EU will give her anything - she's been held in contempt of Parliament, is now on her second vote of NC and can't get her deal through Parliament.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @Jonescat I don't see the point of it if it non binding.
> 
> It was popular in Victorian times
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_votes_of_no_confidence_in_British_governments
> 
> @stockwellcat.  Got any popcorn left over ?


I am making a fresh batch for tomorrow night.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> While it's not going to change anything, it will essentially expose she has no support, assuming the vote goes against her. In short it's a means of drawing forward the meaningfull vote.


The meaningful vote is taking place on the 14th January 2019 and the debate continuing on the 7th January 2019. Parliament break up this week for there Christmas Holidays.


----------



## kimthecat

Jonescat said:


> Well I am a bit lost tbh, .


I think the whole country is !


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I think the whole country is !


----------



## kimthecat

Ch 4 news . I dont think Labour will be able to go ahead with the motion. There wont be time for it to be discussed in parliament .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Ch 4 news . I dont think Labour will be able to go ahead with the motion. There wont be time for it to be discussed in parliament .


Oh darn. I was getting the popcorn ready for tomorrow night


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh darn. I was getting the popcorn ready for tomorrow night


:Hilarious

This is from Wiki 
*Opposition*
Opposition motions are initiated by the Opposition party and often occur with little chance of a confidence motion succeeding. By convention a no confidence vote will take precedence over normal Parliamentary business for that day and will begin with Speeches from the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition rather than the Ministers for the policy area which may be the concern of the motion. Not every no confidence motion will profess no confidence in the Government itself, some no confidence motions only state no confidence in the particular policies of a government. Probably the most famous no confidence motion was on the night of 28 March 1979 when Jim Callaghan's Labour Government fell from office by one vote, 311-310,[8] in what was described by the BBC as one of the most dramatic nights in Westminster's history.[9]


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


>


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382183


:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


>


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> This is from Wiki
> *Opposition*
> Opposition motions are initiated by the Opposition party and often occur with little chance of a confidence motion succeeding. By convention a no confidence vote will take precedence over normal Parliamentary business for that day and will begin with Speeches from the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition rather than the Ministers for the policy area which may be the concern of the motion. Not every no confidence motion will profess no confidence in the Government itself, some no confidence motions only state no confidence in the particular policies of a government. Probably the most famous no confidence motion was on the night of 28 March 1979 when Jim Callaghan's Labour Government fell from office by one vote, 311-310,[8] in what was described by the BBC as one of the most dramatic nights in Westminster's history.[9]


So the DUP have said they won't back the no confidence motion (They need the DUP to have enough numbers wise to push it across the line). The SNP have said it is a shoddy stunt and from this language one would assume they won't back it either. It is highly unlikely any Conservative MP's will back it as they would be voting their party out of power. It is questionable if it is actually going to happen before the New Year. So what is Corbyn trying to achieve? I sense a no confidence vote in him taking place in the Labour Party before long and a leadership contest within the Labour Party.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382186


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


>


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The SNP have said it is a shoddy stunt and from this language one would assume they won't back it either. I


They changed their tune. Sturgeon was telling Corbyn they should work together to topple the Government , that was last Monday according to the Independent .

"Nicola Sturgeon has appealed to Jeremy Corbyn "work together" to topple Theresa May's government after a crucial vote on the prime minister's Brexit deal was abandoned, promising the SNP will support a motion of no confidence if it is tabled by Labour.

The Scottish first minister said delaying the vote was "pathetic cowardice" and vowed that her party would stand with Labour if it follows through with its plan to bring down the government with a confidence vote on Tuesday. "


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> They changed their tune. Sturgeon was telling Corbyn they should work together to topple the Government , that was last Monday according to the Independent .
> 
> "Nicola Sturgeon has appealed to Jeremy Corbyn "work together" to topple Theresa May's government after a crucial vote on the prime minister's Brexit deal was abandoned, promising the SNP will support a motion of no confidence if it is tabled by Labour.
> 
> The Scottish first minister said delaying the vote was "pathetic cowardice" and vowed that her party would stand with Labour if it follows through with its plan to bring down the government with a confidence vote on Tuesday. "


The vote is against May as PM and not the Government so they won't be bringing the Government down so to speak. Nothing would be achieved by the motion Corbyn has called. May will still be PM after this motion has been defeated or succeeded. He called the wrong motion. He cannot call a motion against TM as PM only the Conservatives can do this.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The vote is against May as PM and not the Government so they won't be bringing the Government down so to speak. Nothing would be achieved by the motion Corbyn has called. May will still be PM after this motion has been defeated or succeedes. He called the wrong motion. He cannot call a motion against TM as PM only the Conservatives can do this.


Oh I see . Well that's waste of bloody time.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

*Here we go folks. Let's see what Corbyn does. The Government have called his bluff.*


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> *Here we go folks. Let's see what Corbyn does. The Government have called his bluff.*
> 
> *
> View attachment 382203
> *


Quelle Suprise !


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-to-condemn-calls-for-second-eu-referendum-11584184

Corbyn is demanding a meaningful vote. That's it  Well May said the vote will be on the 14th January 2019 already earlier today. :Eggonface Corbyn.

So the Conservative Brexiteers and ERG have said they will back the Government if there was a vote of no confidence and so will the DUP. Looks like this is just another of Corbyn's hot air moments.


----------



## MollySmith

Hilarious. 'Labour is a shambles'.... takes one to know one, after all that Tory party naval gazing last week! No wonder Russell-Moyle grabbed the ceremonial mace. Desperate for a way out!


----------



## kimthecat

John McDonnell is the brains and the power behind the throne . I think Corbyn has virtually become a figure head and McDonnells puppet.
I keep thinking of Spitting image where David Steele is in David Owens pocket .


----------



## Jesthar

Well, as we appear to be having a meme-a-thon...


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> She's at least trying to keep her other promises. I don't know how she's found the time
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...work-right-for-british-workers-and-businesses
> 
> It's not perfect but it's a huge step forward


Shes trying to fool people into believing they are the 'party of the workers', when the tories have been hammering them since they came into power.

I can't believe people STILL don't realise the tories are the representatives of big business

Mays 'negotiations' prove what they really think about workers - she has screwed them over.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour's stunt yesterday well and truely back fired on them. I wonder what today will bring?


----------



## noushka05

I know theres a lot in the running, but is Dominic Raab the thickest tory MP of all?

*Dominic Raab*‏

_Olsen's other key observation in the Post is right too (whatever your view): Remainers believe UK prosperity depends on its location, 
Brexiters believe UK prosperity depends on its character.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_

This response is to Raabs tweet. (In the words of David Allen Green - A Magnificent! thread! )

*Robert Saunders* (historian)*: * Of all the many delusions that have gripped British politics, this is perhaps the most destructive.
It's what I call *"The Tinkerbell Theory of History*" - and it's carrying us down the road to ruin. [THREAD]

In the Boys' Book of History to which Raab and his ilk subscribe, Britain's glorious past can be traced to a single source. Not geography. Not empire.
Not its natural resources or the immigration that birthed the industrial revolution. Just this: sheer pluck & determination.

Far from being nostalgic for empire, the dominant folk memory of British history is of "plucky little Britain", standing with its backs to the wall in the face of overpowering odds. It's the story of the underdog, hopelessly outnumbered but somehow finding a way through.

It's the story of Dunkirk: the fishing smacks & pleasure boats that defied the Nazi war machine. It's Sir Francis Drake, singeing the beards of the mighty Spanish Empire.
It's the lonely soldier on the coast, undaunted as the skies darken beneath the shadow of the Luftwaffe. 4/1

Even at the peak of empire, when Britain ruled a quarter of the world's landmass & commanded the seas, it was the heroic defeats that were celebrated: General Gordon, in his last stand at Khartoum; the slaughter at Isandlwana; brave redcoats, alone against overpowering odds.

In the high days of empire, this was a useful dishonesty. It allowed a military superpower, imposing its might across the globe, to imagine itself as something different: as a brave champion of freedom, engaged in defensive action against forces that willed its destruction.

In the World Wars, when the possibility of defeat was very real, it galvanised morale. But in so doing, it wiped from popular memory everything that made Britain such a formidable foe to the Nazi empire: its colossal military machine, unmatched economic power & global empire.

This "forgetting" comes at a price: it tells a nation that has lost its empire, its military pre-eminence & its economic supremacy that (to coin a phrase) "Nothing has changed". It reduces geopolitics to faith-healing, in which anything is possible so long as we believe.

That myth was turbocharged by Margaret Thatcher after the Falklands War, transmuting a victory over a vastly inferior opponent, achieved by a Navy she had wanted to cut, into a moment of national psychological rebirth. 9/13 https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104989









*
It's this myth, not empire, that fires the Brexit Right. Hence Johnson's mantra that, for Brexit to succeed, we need only "believe in the British people", recapture "the dynamism of those bearded Victorians" & "put some lead in the collective penc*il".10/13
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/15/rest-world-believes-britain-time-did/









It fires Grant Shapps' romantic appeals to recapture the "swashbuckling spirit of the 19th Century", or Theresa May's homilies on "the lesson" of the wartime generation: that "if we come together, there is no limit to what we can achieve".

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/full-text-theresa-mays-conservative-conference-speech/










That brings us to Tinkerbell. For Boris Johnson - the Peter Pan of British politics - the Brexit "dream is dying, suffocated by needless self-doubt". But if we all just clap our hands: if we shut our eyes & say* "I *do** believe in Brexit!* I do! I do!"*, it can return to life.


*But politics is not a fairy tale and history does not owe us a happy ending. Pluck didn't build the Empire or win the War: it is not a substitute for the power we've lost. We cannot build a better future on fantasies about the past. *

*All we can do is to be wise in time. [ENDS]*


----------



## noushka05

,,
*Young Greens*‏Verified account @YoungGreenParty 14h14 hours ago
The Young Greens have written to every member of Parliament with 11 other youth organisations to demand a People's Vote. Read our letter now!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> ,,
> *Young Greens*‏Verified account @YoungGreenParty 14h14 hours ago
> The Young Greens have written to every member of Parliament with 11 other youth organisations to demand a People's Vote. Read our letter now!


Remainer May has ruled out a second referendum and extending article 50. So the chances of a peoples vote is zero.

Labour called a vote of No Confidence in May and ended up being a laughing stock last night. So Remainer May remains PM and nothing changes.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Dame somebody or other


Probably Dame Vera Lynn.


----------



## noushka05

Welcome to tory/brexit Britain

*Faisal Islam*‏Verified account @faisalislam 16h16 hours ago
Whilst reporting that some pro Brexit campaigners in yellow jackets were shouting misogynist stuff at Kay and that I was "not British" and "a rapist" ... well done all who helped create this situation. Good job.

........................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Remainer May has ruled out a second referendum and extending article 50. So the chances of a peoples vote is zero.
> 
> Labour called a vote of No Confidence in May and ended up being a laughing stock last night. So Remainer May remains PM and nothing changes.


You should be supporting 'remainer May'.

*Sam Gyimah MP*‏Verified account @SamGyimah Dec 17
Downing St has stopped selling the PMs flawed deal. Instead we have displacement activity designed to distract from last weeks failed renegotiation. And a concerted attempt to discredit every plausible alternative as they run down the clock. This is not in the national interest.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You should be supporting 'remainer May'.
> 
> *Sam Gyimah MP*‏Verified account @SamGyimah Dec 17
> Downing St has stopped selling the PMs flawed deal. Instead we have displacement activity designed to distract from last weeks failed renegotiation. And a concerted attempt to discredit every plausible alternative as they run down the clock. This is not in the national interest.


Downing Street is preparing for no deal today @noushka05 for the whole day.

Remainer May is a remainer. She voted remain remember and tried getting a deal to keep the UK aligned to the EU through the Irish Back Stop with no end date.

Many members of the public believe no deal means we stay in the EU according to Sky News this morning. It doesn't mean this at all.

Where is the opposition?
Corbyn made a laughing stock out of himself and Labour last night. SNP called his vote of No Confidence in May a shambollic stunt.


----------



## noushka05

Would brexiteers really prefer our money to be thrown into the brexit blackhole rather than spent on our collapsing health service?

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford 12h12 hours ago
Rachel Clarke Retweeted Philip Hammond

Never forget what that £4.2 billion could have been spent on: 

840k hip replacements
91k nurses
91k paramedics
78k doctors
4200 CT scanners
2100 MRI scanners
12 entire NHS hospitals

What a grotesque waste of taxpayers' money. The lives that could have been saved

*Philip Hammond*‏Verified account: A_ responsible government must prepare for all scenarios, which is why I have made more than *£4.2bn available for EU exit planning* since 2016. In the coming days, @hmtreasury will allocate a further £2bn of that money to government departments to bolster #Brexit preparations._

..................................................................................

..............................................................................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Downing Street is preparing for no deal today @noushka05 for the whole day.


You must be very happy, no deal is what you wanted and you will be forced to own it - when it all comes crashing down round your ears. Which it will.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Shes trying to fool people into believing they are the 'party of the workers', when the tories have been hammering them since they came into power.
> 
> I can't believe people STILL don't realise the tories are the representatives of big business
> 
> Mays 'negotiations' prove what they really think about workers - she has screwed them over.


May repeatedly states that her deal will "protect jobs" and is in the national interest.

Her own government figures - and everyone else's except Minford - show that her Brexit will leave the country poorer than it would otherwise be.

That does not protect jobs, it costs jobs. That is not in the national interest.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I know theres a lot in the running, but is Dominic Raab the thickest tory MP of all?
> 
> *Dominic Raab*‏
> 
> _Olsen's other key observation in the Post is right too (whatever your view): Remainers believe UK prosperity depends on its location,
> Brexiters believe UK prosperity depends on its character._


I don't think Raab believes this; he's probably not that stupid.

It's dog-whistle tribalism. Britons are so much better than the unfortunate inhabitants of any other country and that is why we will thrive. How can any true patriot argue with this accepted fact?

Pathetic.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Would brexiteers really prefer our money to be thrown into the brexit blackhole rather than spent on our collapsing health service?
> 
> *Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford 12h12 hours ago
> Rachel Clarke Retweeted Philip Hammond
> 
> Never forget what that £4.2 billion could have been spent on:
> 
> 840k hip replacements
> 91k nurses
> 91k paramedics
> 78k doctors
> 4200 CT scanners
> 2100 MRI scanners
> 12 entire NHS hospitals
> 
> What a grotesque waste of taxpayers' money. The lives that could have been save
> 
> *Philip Hammond*‏Verified account: A_ responsible government must prepare for all scenarios, which is why I have made more than *£4.2bn available for EU exit planning* since 2016. In the coming days, @hmtreasury will allocate a further £2bn of that money to government departments to bolster #Brexit preparations._
> 
> ..................................................................................
> 
> ..............................................................................


And it doesn't include the money we have lost through the last 2 years of slowing growth and business stagnation.

But hey; blue passports. (Sorry, that's flippant, but this whole thing is leaving me more and more depressed.)


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You must be very happy, no deal is what you wanted and you will be forced to own it - when it all comes crashing down round your ears. Which it will.


Thank you for your prediction.

I voted leave and me and many leave voters voted to leave the EU. No half hearted deals but to leave the EU. It is some remainers that have difficulties understanding this. We aren't crashing out of the EU with no deal, we are simply leaving.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for your prediction.
> 
> I voted leave and me and many leave voters voted to leave the EU. No half hearted deals but to leave the EU. It is some remainers that have difficulties understanding this. We aren't crashing out of the EU with no deal, we are simply leaving.


Come on, I thought even you'd know that you can't just simply leave and expect everything to be hunky dory!

I could simply leave my job. Yeah, dead easy that. Then I'd have to think about how to pay my bills and mortgage with no money!


----------



## KittenKong

The moment Maysolini couldn't take anymore criticism. She walks out!

Pity they didn't lock the door behind her.

https://www.facebook.com/1737900706475835/posts/2189120384687196/


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Come on, I thought even you'd know that you can't just simply leave and expect everything to be *hanky panky! *
> 
> I could simply leave my job. Yeah, dead easy that. Then I'd have to think about how to pay my bills and mortgage with no money!


I'd settle for hunky dory, but hanky panky would be a bonus!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Come on, I thought even you'd know that you can't just simply leave and expect everything to be hanky panky!


Surely you mean hunky dory!!


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I'd settle for hunky dory, but hanky panky would be a bonus!


Gah, cross posted!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The moment Maysolini couldn't take anymore criticism. She walks out!
> 
> Pity they didn't lock the door behind her.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/1737900706475835/posts/2189120384687196/


She walked out laughing her head off at pathetic Corbyn calling a motion he could not call as only her MP's can call a vote of no confidence in May not the opposition party. Even the SNP thought Corbyn's stunt was ridiculous. The motion Corbyn called was none binding and meaningless.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Come on, I thought even you'd know that you can't just simply leave and expect everything to be *hanky panky! *


:Hilarious
I don't expect everything to be hanky panky at all :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Surely you mean hunky dory!!


Ahem, yes I did!

Glad it raised a laugh at my expense though.

Original post now corrected.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Vox Party is on the rise in Spain (Another Far Right Movement on the rise in Europe). Guess why they are on the rise? Nothing to do with Brexit by the way.

Migrant crisis in the EU, Migrants taking jobs and jumping the social housing queues is the answer and locals are fed up with this. Before I get abuse the news article was on Euro News this morning.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, yes I did!
> 
> Glad it raised a laugh at my expense though.
> 
> Original post now corrected.


Spoilsport


----------



## Jonescat

stockwellcat. said:


> The Vox Party is on the rise in Spain (Another Far Right Movement on the rise in Europe). Guess why they are on the rise? Nothing to do with Brexit by the way.
> 
> Migrant crisis in the EU, Migrants taking jobs and jumping the social housing queues is the answer and locals are fed up with this. Before I get abuse the news article was on Euro News this morning.


 And also because of a disapproval of Catalonian independence moves, a desire to return to one Spain rather than the current devolved regional powers, suspicion of the incumbents over corruption issues and a profound anti-feminist, pro-traditional-family stance.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The Vox Party is on the rise in Spain (Another Far Right Movement on the rise in Europe). Guess why they are on the rise? Nothing to do with Brexit by the way.
> 
> Migrant crisis in the EU, Migrants taking jobs and jumping the social housing queues is the answer and locals are fed up with this. Before I get abuse the news article was on Euro News this morning.


It really doesn't help when the media give oxygen and publicity to these groups.

All have a common theme: Nationalism and scapegoating immigrants or "minorities" by preaching and inciting hatred.

Bear in mind they'll be wanting Gibraltar back too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cabinet has agreed to intensify no deal planning and is advising the public and businesses to prepare for no deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Cabinet has agreed to intensify no deal planning and is advising the public and businesses to prepare for no deal.


http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/1...email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoodsDiary+(J


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/18/a-wto-exit-cabinet/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoodsDiary+(J


Some of the public have been preparing for no deal as well (you'd be silly not to) as it has always been an option.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Well, as we appear to be having a meme-a-thon...


:Hilarious

Hanky panky ! manky panky more like !


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Some of the public have been preparing for no deal as well (you'd be silly not to) as it has always been an option.


I've been stockpiling since the beginning of October, not because of Brexit, but in case we have deep snow and I can't make the 12 miles drive to my nearest shop


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*May hoping to get better Brexit deal in January sales*
18th December 2018


*Get Daily Mash headlines:* 

*THERESA May believes she can get a more economical Brexit deal in the January sales, it has emerged.*

With a vital commons vote set for January 14, the prime minister is confident of 'nabbing' a discounted Brexit deal if she gets up early to beat the Boxing Day crowds.

She said: "As it stands the so-called Brexit divorce is about £39 billion.

"But in the sales you've got to expect that to go down to at least £38 billion. Maybe even £37 billion if we get it online and choose the free shipping option, although I don't know if I can put that much on my debit card.

"Plus you've got to imagine the customs union will be having some sort of sale. Maybe 10 per cent off all tariffs or something."

She added: "I don't know who I am any more."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/18/a-wto-exit-cabinet/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoodsDiary+(J


John Redwood doesn't think there will be a problem because everyone should be ready. So that's all right then.

I suspect his minority view is largely informed by his desire for a No Deal Brexit. Fortunately Parliament are not going to let that happen.

But just a couple of points anyway, among many ...

What might be 'no undue delay' for an individual lorry becomes something very different for 10,000 lorries per day when extra checks are required.

The notion that the UK "should remove all tariffs from imported components to be used by UK based manufacturers" is illegal under WTO / GATT MFN rules if implemented for EU imports only. And how are 'components' going to be defined by the government - a dictionary is not quite enough - and then identified by those on the border? And if the lorry carrying them happens to be the 350th in a queue - or the 3,500th - how will removing tariffs, even were it possible, facilitate the just in time processes that rely on multiple deliveries of these components every day?

Edit: And I notice he hasn't mentioned the border issue in Ireland. Are we supposed to just ignore it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> John Redwood doesn't think there will be a problem because everyone should be ready. So that's all right then.
> 
> I suspect his minority view is largely informed by his desire for a No Deal Brexit. Fortunately Parliament are not going to let that happen.
> 
> But just a couple of points anyway, among many ...
> 
> What might be 'no undue delay' for an individual lorry becomes something very different for 10,000 lorries per day when extra checks are required.
> 
> The notion that the UK "should remove all tariffs from imported components to be used by UK based manufacturers" is illegal under WTO / GATT MFN rules if implemented for EU imports only. And how are 'components' going to be defined by the government - a dictionary is not quite enough - and then identified by those on the border? And if the lorry carrying them happens to be the 350th in a queue - or the 3,500th - how will removing tariffs, even were it possible, facilitate the just in time processes that rely on multiple deliveries of these components every day?


Well the Government has implemented full no deal contingency planning as of now. They are making space on ferries for supplies, putting 3,500 soldiers on standby in full rediness to deal with the supplies and providing an extra roll in law and order if needed by the police. If you do not believe me read the Guardian newspaper, the one that backs remain.

Parliament are being given a choice me thinks of May's deal or no deal and nothing else in January 2019.
*No-deal Brexit plans put 3,500 troops on standby*
https://theguardian.com/politics/20...meets-to-discuss-ramping-up-plans-for-no-deal

*No-deal Brexit planning implemented 'in full' after Theresa May cabinet gives approval*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-cabinet-vote-parliament-eu-contingency-planning-business-a8688916.html?amp

Adverts are going to go out on TV informing the public what to do and letters to businesses around the UK.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Glad it raised a laugh at my expense though.


It got your cat laughing too, so that's a bonus!


----------



## MollySmith

I honestly haven’t got any words to the latest no deal plans. It actually is rather scary and largely why I simply couldn’t vote to leave. All this mess and expense that it’s causing businesses, people, students.... there isn’t anything that anyone could say to convince me anything about leave is right at this time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

No Deal is what leave is. No one voted for a deal or to be tied to the EU by the backdoor. Remainer May took it on her own back to negotiate what she thought Brexit meant. No leave voter, voted for that. Remainers will say otherwise as they always do. So the Cabinet and remainer PM have had a bit of reality realising they will have to accept that no deal/a clean break is the only way out of this. No one I know voted for a Brexit deal they voted to leave. Remainers will be scared as they want to remain in the EU. By leaving the EU we cut all ties which is what was voted for. We get our fishing waters back and don't have to pay the greedy bureaucrats in Brussels another penny. Well done Cabinet Ministers and PM today for making the decision to prepare to leave the EU properly and not the remainer way (which has failed to get very little backing).


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> No Deal is what leave is. No one voted for a deal or to be tied to the EU by the backdoor. Remainer May took it on her own back to negotiate what she thought Brexit meant. No leave voter, voted for that. Remainers will say otherwise as they always do. So the Cabinet and remainer PM have had a bit of reality realising they will have to accept that no deal/a clean break is the only way out of this. No one I know voted for a Brexit deal they voted to leave. Remainers will be scared as they want to remain in the EU. By leaving the EU we cut all ties which is what was voted for. We get our fishing waters back and don't have to pay the greedy bureaucrats in Brussels another penny. Well done Cabinet Ministers and PM today for making the decision to prepare for no deal.


Sorry but I've never heard any thing so stupid, we need a deal, just no the one the that stupid rat bag of a woman May is trying to get though.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> No Deal is what leave is. No one voted for a deal or to be tied to the EU by the backdoor. Remainer May took it on her own back to negotiate what she thought Brexit meant. No leave voter, voted for that. Remainers will say otherwise as they always do. So the Cabinet and remainer PM have had a bit of reality realising they will have to accept that no deal/a clean break is the only way out of this. No one I know voted for a Brexit deal they voted to leave. Remainers will be scared as they want to remain in the EU. By leaving the EU we cut all ties which is what was voted for. We get our fishing waters back and don't have to pay the greedy bureaucrats in Brussels another penny. Well done Cabinet Ministers and PM today for making the decision to prepare to leave the EU properly and not the remainer way (which has failed to get very little backing).


I know certain stockwellcat that was convincing me on original Brexit thread that Leave doesn't mean No Deal and we will have access to Single Market.
Wonder what happened to that poster?

Some imposter gagged him and is using his account ???

Someone who knows what all 51.9 voted for.

That they voted for hard border in NI and Gibraltar.

Custom tariffs. Crashing pound.

Job losses .

Recession.

WTO rules- at expense of Falklands and Gibraltar. Because Argentina and Spain will block Britain.

Less money for NHS or no NHS at all.

Diminished City.

Banks moving out.

Prices of import soaring.

Shortage of nurses, doctors, carers etc...
All voted for that???

Rather hard to believe it.


----------



## Arnie83

2017 "This will be the easiest deal in human history"

2018 "We have 3500 troops on standby to deal with any disruption"

It's all going terribly well, isn't it!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Sorry but I've never heard any thing so stupid, we need a deal, just no the one the that stupid rat bag of a woman May is trying to get though.


Remainers want a deal yes as they want to remain tied to the EU. Leave voters don't.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I know certain stockwellcat that was convincing me on original Brexit thread that Leave doesn't mean No Deal and we will have access to Single Market.
> Wonder what happened to that poster?
> 
> Some imposter gagged him and is using his account ???
> 
> Someone who knows what all 51.9 voted for.
> 
> That they voted for hard border in NI and Gibraltar.
> 
> Custom tariffs. Crashing pound.
> 
> Job losses .
> 
> Recession.
> 
> WTO rules- at expense of Falklands and Gibraltar. Because Argentina and Spain will block Britain.
> 
> Less money for NHS or no NHS at all.
> 
> Diminished City.
> 
> Banks moving out.
> 
> Prices of import soaring.
> 
> Shortage of nurses, doctors, carers etc...
> All voted for that???
> 
> Rather hard to believe it.


That is the problem with remainers they hang onto the past and cannot let go. Freak out and dream up rubbish


----------



## Magyarmum

Slightly off topic but relevant.

Mayotte where some of my family live and where I worked for 7 years has the largest, most modern hospital in France, paid for partly by France but mainly by the EU.

*The World View: Adrian Blomfield in Kenya*








The port of Mamoudzou in the French Indian Ocean archipelago of Mayotte (Getty)

The sun may have set over the British Empire, but we often forget that our greatest former imperial rival still holds a degree of dominion over palm and pine.

The French flag flutters from Saint Pierre and Miquelon, entirely surrounded by Canadian territorial waters, to New Caledonia in the southwest Pacific, which voted against independence in a referendum last month. Nearly three million people live in French overseas colonies, 12 times as many as on British territories.

Britons may be surprised to hear that many French possessions are partially subsidised by the UK. The European Union has extended its border to include nine "outermost regions", each eligible for a large dollop of EU cash, to which the UK contributes. This money comes mostly from the EU's structural and investment (ESI) funds, designed to give financial support to the union's poorest areas and reduce regional income disparities.

Thus it was that, flying into the French-governed Indian Ocean island of Mayotte last month, I was able to breeze through the EU passport queue, even though I was 5,000 miles away from Europe.

The 240,000 people on Mayotte earn only about a third of what their fellow citizens get in mainland France. But prospects are looking up since the territory, part of the Comoro archipelago off the east African coast, became an EU outermost region in 2014. Under the EU's 2014-2020 funding programme, Mayotte qualifies for 284 million euros - although it can tap into hundreds of millions more a year from subsidies set aside specifically for French territories.

The overall budget for the nine regions is surprisingly large, with 13.3 billion euros set aside over six years. Six of the nine are French: Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guiana, Saint Martin, Reunion and Mayotte itself. Spain's Canary Islands and Portugal's Madeira and the Azores make up the rest.

Brexiters will note grimly that none of the nine regions are British. But Britain's overseas regions tend to be much richer; subsidising the Cayman Islands might seem odd. And, although France receives more structural funding than Britain, poorer regions of the UK do benefit. Wales, for instance, is receiving 2.4 billion euros over the six years of the ESI programme, while the funds are credited with creating 44,000 jobs in Scotland and 20,000 more in Yorkshire.

Poorer British regions may lose out under Brexit, although the Government is creating the UK Shared Prosperity Fund to fill the gap. Mayotte and other French overseas territories are less worried about the possible loss of British contributions to the ESI budget. Norway and Switzerland, both non-EU states, are obliged to pay into it. However Brexit unfolds, Britain may still end up helping to prop up France's overseas possessions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> That is the problem with remainers they hang onto the past and cannot let go. Freak out and dream up rubbish


Voting was in the past? 
This when stockwellcat was convincing me we will have a Deal to stay in Single Market.

Oh, that rubbish referendum with no plan and empty slogans.

Let's put it past us and get a new one when Leave can present their Cunning Plan!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Voting was in the past?
> This when stockwellcat was convincing me we will have a Deal to stay in Single Market.
> 
> Oh, that rubbish referendum with no plan and empty slogans.
> 
> Let's put it past us and get a new one when Leave can present their Cunning Plan!!!


Yup.


----------



## Jonescat

When the remainers were playing Project Fear, their dreams were paltry compared to the Government today. Troops on the street, stockpiles of food and medicine and check your holiday flight plans. Your world is about to explode unless they get their way. It is a shameful bullying tactic that will scare and distress a lot of people. The first duty of any Government is to keep its people safe, and they are singularly failing to do so.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Yup.


But I would not hold my breath...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I know certain stockwellcat that was convincing me on original Brexit thread that Leave doesn't mean No Deal and we will have access to Single Market.
> Wonder what happened to that poster?
> 
> Some imposter gagged him and is using his account ???


That stockwellcat had no . after his name :Hilarious

He grew up aged 2 years and learnt alot about the EU and supported a full leave Brexit not a remain Brexit and got sick of all the moaning from the otherside. 

Perhaps he should change his username to avoid confusion :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> But I would not hold my breath...


Not a good idea. If you did you might pass out due to lack of oxygen


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Not a good idea. If you did you might pass out due to lack of oxygen


By the way, met @Elles today...

Jealous now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> By the way, met @Elles today...
> 
> Jealous now?


Not really.

Hope you both had a good time


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Not really.
> 
> Hope you both had a good time


 Let's say, we left knives in our pockets ... :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Let's say, we left knives in our pockets ... :Hilarious



No blood bath then?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Let's say, we left knives in our pockets ... :Hilarious


You can always come over to England again and visit Oxford


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> You can always come over to England again and visit Oxford


It will be London Town.

:Chicken


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> It will be London Town.
> 
> :Chicken


Oxford is only 58 minutes from London on the train. So I don't mind visiting London.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> It will be London Town.
> 
> :Chicken


Only if Brexit isn't mentioned


----------



## KittenKong

Martial law?

Didn't see that on the side of a bus...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Martial law?
> 
> Didn't see that on the side of a bus...
> 
> View attachment 382362


It was on the yellow bus. You know. The remain one.

Hyping it up already are you.

It's not martial law.

The soldiers are on standby to help with supplies and law and order if called upon by the police if remainers start kicking off because they didn't get their way. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Only if Brexit isn't mentioned


:Chicken:Angelic...

What Cannot Be Named then???


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> :Chicken:Angelic...
> 
> What Cannot Be Named then???


Leave it at the door of the pub facing Parliament. 

Brexit that is


----------



## Arnie83

I wrote to my MP today (again), this time to seek his assurance that he would do everything ho could to ensure that 'No Deal' was dismissed as an option. 

Hopefully he will agree with me that the new referendum will be a straight choice between Leaving on May's Deal and calling the whole shambles off. Will be interested to see what he says in response. He's clearly aware that Brexit will harm the country, but he can't say too much in an email that someone unscrupulous might make public. (Not me, of course, but he doesn't know that.)


----------



## stockwellcat.

There won't be a second referendum as long as remainer May is in power and that goes for Scotland to.


----------



## kimthecat

The troops etc is a precaution. it would be remiss of the Government not to have a plan . Rather like the year 2000 when S lough Ice ring was going to be used to put dead bodies if the planes fell out of the sky which fortunately didnt happen ,


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The troops etc is a precaution. it would be remiss of the Government not to have a plan . Rather like the year 2000 when S lough Ice ring was going to be used to put dead bodies if the planes fell out of the sky which fortunately didnt happen ,


And before anyone compares that to "Project Fear" it was largely because action was taken in plenty of time to make sure that it didn't!

There is insufficient time to take such successful preventative action in the unlikely event that Parliament was stupid enough to allow a No Deal Brexit to happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> The troops etc is a precaution. it would be remiss of the Government not to have a plan . Rather like the year 2000 when S lough Ice ring was going to be used to put dead bodies if the planes fell out of the sky which fortunately didnt happen ,


The mention of soldiers sends the remainers into a spin.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The mention of soldiers sends the remainers into a spin.


Perhaps you could post the Keep Calm meme again!


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-w...rbyn-over-no-confidence-omnishambles-11585316

Labour leadership challenge on the horizon maybe?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The mention of soldiers sends the remainers into a spin.


I remember the, "Troops out of Ireland" banners during the troubles, do we really want to see this sort of thing again?

I realise this is blackmail on behalf of Theresa May to gain support for her Brexit plan. Why do you think she cancelled the parliamentary vote last week?

The UK is unusual in having a generally unarmed police force. I don't think armed troops will be popular patrolling the streets regardless of how one voted in June 2016.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I remember the, "Troops out of Ireland" banners during the troubles, do we really want to see this sort of thing again?
> 
> I realise this is blackmail on behalf of Theresa May to gain support for her Brexit plan. Why do you think she cancelled the parliamentary vote last week?
> 
> The UK is unusual in having a generally unarmed police force. I don't think armed troops will be popular patrolling the streets regardless of how one voted in June 2016.


Remainers are blowing things out of proportion. No one has said they will be patrolling the streets. Only remainers are. Soldiers if used can be used in various roles including making sure supplies are sorted to be sent to the relevant destination, providing first aid etc.

Love how remainers throw spin on this.

The Government has said that they (the soliders) may not be needed. The Government has to make any contingency planning for no deal even Labour would have to do it if they were negotiating (thank god they aren't) it would be incredibly irresponsible of them if they didn't and we left with no deal (or should I say left properly).


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat.

The 1980 Government pamphlet Protect and Survive  Really scary at the time.

http://atomica.co.uk/main.htm
If Britain is attacked by nuclear bombs or by missiles, we do not know what targets will be chosen or how severe the assault will be.

If nuclear weapons are used on a large scale, those of us living in the country areas might be exposed to as great a risk as those in the towns. The radioactive dust, falling where the wind blows it, will bring the most widespread dangers of all. No part of the United Kingdom can be considered safe from both the direct effects of the weapons and the resultant fall-out.

The dangers which you and your family will face in this situation can be reduced if you do as this booklet describes.

*Read this booklet with care
Your life and the lives of your family may depend upon it*
*Do as it advises
Keep it safely at hand*


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382387
> 
> View attachment 382389
> View attachment 382388
> 
> View attachment 382392
> 
> View attachment 382393
> 
> View attachment 382394
> 
> View attachment 382395
> 
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/labour-w...rbyn-over-no-confidence-omnishambles-11585316
> 
> Labour leadership challenge on the horizon maybe?


Jeremy fudging it as usual. The man hasn't a clue!

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/18/watch-what-is-jeremy-corbyn-s-view-on-brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

100 Days to go before the shackles are broken with the EU and the UK leaves the EU. 

Businesses and the public have had 2 years to prepare for this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sajid Javid is setting out a white paper today. Migrants will be asked why they want to come to the UK. Visas will be 1 year for none skilled workers and 5 years for skilled workers. It hasn't been made clear if there will be a minimum salary cap for highly skilled workers. People will have to get visas to come and work in the UK before they come to the UK. The new system will end the EU free movement rules.

https://news.sky.com/story/post-bre...ment-and-no-cap-on-high-skilled-jobs-11585484


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat.
> 
> The 1980 Government pamphlet Protect and Survive  Really scary at the time.
> 
> http://atomica.co.uk/main.htm
> If Britain is attacked by nuclear bombs or by missiles, we do not know what targets will be chosen or how severe the assault will be.
> 
> If nuclear weapons are used on a large scale, those of us living in the country areas might be exposed to as great a risk as those in the towns. The radioactive dust, falling where the wind blows it, will bring the most widespread dangers of all. No part of the United Kingdom can be considered safe from both the direct effects of the weapons and the resultant fall-out.
> 
> The dangers which you and your family will face in this situation can be reduced if you do as this booklet describes.
> 
> *Read this booklet with care*
> *Your life and the lives of your family may depend upon it*
> *Do as it advises*
> *Keep it safely at hand*


The glaring difference is, we will be inflicting the damage on OURSELVES.


James O'Brien_: It's like we've declared war on ourselves. There is no other way to put it.

............._



stockwellcat. said:


> Sajid Javid is setting out a white paper today. Migrants will be asked why they want to come to the UK. Visas will be 1 year for none skilled workers and 5 years for skilled workers. It hasn't been made clear if there will be a minimum salary cap for highly skilled workers. People will have to get visas to come and work in the UK before they come to the UK. The new system will end the EU free movement rules.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/post-bre...ment-and-no-cap-on-high-skilled-jobs-11585484


The racists are going to be thrilled!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The racists are going to be thrilled!


How is it racist?

The Government is using information from the immigration advisory committee which is seperate and independent from Parliament.

Many (none racists) voted leave to control immigration to the UK and end free movement, if you like it or not.

Sorry @noushka05 it is comments like the one that you made above that causes problems.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> And before anyone compares that to "Project Fear" it was largely because action was taken in plenty of time to make sure that it didn't!


That didn't stop the media whipping everyone into a frenzy telling them the world was going to end at midnight did it though? And therefore there was panic buying and the resulting shortages.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> How is it racist?
> 
> The Government is using information from the immigration advisory committee which is seperate and independent from Parliament.
> 
> Many (none racists) voted leave to control immigration to the UK and end free movement, if you like it or not.
> 
> Sorry @noushka05 it is comments like the one that you made above that causes problems.


I think you call it rabble rousing!

These are the requirements if you wish to work in Australia.

http://www.visabureau.com/australia/immigration-points-test.aspx


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I think you call it rabble rousing!
> 
> These are the requirements if you wish to work in Australia.
> 
> http://www.visabureau.com/australia/immigration-points-test.aspx


My DD spent a year in Australia some years ago after uni . She had to have visa and a £1000 before she was accepted. She travelled around and did casual work , like bar work .

There is a shortage of teachers here so I hope they make exceptions for them as well as nurses.


----------



## kimthecat

If there is going to be a shortage of jobs as suggested then we need to encourage and help people to train for the jobs available .
We are losing jobs to automation , self services tills at the stores for example .


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> That didn't stop the media whipping everyone into a frenzy telling them the world was going to end at midnight did it though? And therefore there was panic buying and the resulting shortages.


True. But detailed work on IT systems went on for years before 1/1/2000. We have 100 days before Brexit, so pointing at Y2K and claiming that a no deal Brexit will therefore be just as smooth is just as irresponsible. Yet Rees-Mogg is tweeting a link to a Sun article claiming that No Deal is no problem at all. Not that he cares about the disruption; he has opened up operations in Dublin to avoid it.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> True. But detailed work on IT systems went on for years before 1/1/2000. We have 100 days before Brexit, so pointing at Y2K and claiming that a no deal Brexit will therefore be just as smooth is just as irresponsible. .


Sure but that wasn't my point. I know you weren't replying to me but my original point was that Governments have a duty to make contingency plans in certain circumstances,

Im not claiming that a No Brexit deal will be as smooth as Y2K , I dont think MillieD is either.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Sure but that wasn't my point. I know you weren't replying to me but my original point was that Governments have a duty to make contingency plans in certain circumstances,


Yep, don't disagree with that.

I'd prefer them to remove the necessity for those plans by ruling out a No Deal and spending the £2 billion on something else, like - oh I don't know - the NHS?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> If there is going to be a shortage of jobs as suggested then we need to encourage and help people to train for the jobs available .
> We are losing jobs to automation , self services tills at the stores for example .


The timescale for the implementation of the new immigration rules is white paper today and full implementation for when any transition period ends in 2020 so on the 1st January 2021 the new immigration laws come into affect. But this could change if the UK leaves properly with no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

NHS workers are to be exempt from any minimum wage requirements (like £30,000 per annum) for skilled workers from what is being planned under the new immigration rules.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Yep, don't disagree with that.
> 
> I'd prefer them to remove the necessity for those plans by ruling out a No Deal and spending the £2 billion on something else, like - oh I don't know - the NHS?


You mentioned Rees Mogg. 
God forbid that he ends up as PM 

If the constituency boundary changes go ahead then Boris may be in danger of losing his seat though I expect he 'd turn up like a bad penny elsewhere !


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> NHS workers are to be exempt from any minimum wage requirements (like £30,000 per annum) for skilled workers from what is being planned under the new immigration rules.


Yes . I read your earlier post.  Teachers wages are below that and I think they should be included.


----------



## KittenKong

Took a Brexit survey via Facebook. The results were interesting:


----------



## KittenKong

Who'd have thought it?

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...th-biggest-in-world-in-2019-pwc-idUKKBN1OI00L


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Who'd have thought it?
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...th-biggest-in-world-in-2019-pwc-idUKKBN1OI00L
> 
> View attachment 382510
> View attachment 382511


And we are still in the EU.

The UK economy and currency will recover when we are outside of the EU. I am not suggesting instantly but it will recover.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Belgium PM has resigned after his government has collapsed.

















https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hel-resigns-government-collapses-dispute/amp/

My question is this. Will this affect the EU ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement when it comes to their turn?


----------



## KittenKong

No mention of troops on the streets from this 4-page front page DUP advert in 2016.

https://bbc.in/2Et0k6q


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No mention of troops on the streets from this 4-page front page DUP advert in 2016.
> 
> https://bbc.in/2Et0k6q
> 
> View attachment 382520


Tut.
There isn't going to be soldiers on the streets. You are hyping this up.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Businesses and the public have had 2 years to prepare for this.


Not really. For most of that the government has been continually moving the expectations for what leave will look like, whilst repeatedly reassuring the country (and businesses especially) that there will be no major disruptions to trade and a deal that ensures we won't end up on WTO basic rules.

This brings us back to the London snowplough metaphor. Do you spend tens of millions of pounds on preparing for handling an extreme event that may never occur, or do you take a more measured approach and trust things won't get that bad.

In this case, as mentioned, the Powers That Be have repeatedly told people there's little point in preparing for a No Deal as it won't happen. So until recently most businesses will mainly have prepared for a Bad Deal (significantly increased costs but no significant delays on import/export. etc.). I doubt many individuals have any plans at all.

Now everyone is suddenly staring down the barrel of the No Deal, basic WTO rules scenario they were reassured wouldn't happen, with barely three months to prepare for it. Nor do they have much to go on as to how that will play out, as no other country in the world trades on basic WTO rules; all have treaties, agreements, customs unions, deals etc. to make trade easier.

Now, I'm kind of assuming that you support perpetually staying on WTO rules with at least the EU, given you have made it clear you don't want any kind of deals or agreements etc. with the EU and we can't negotiate with individual EU member countries. I'm not sure whether or not you also support staying on WTO rules with the rest of the world as well? OK, it can be guaranteed that in the event of a No Deal it is likely we will be on WTO basic rules for quite some time, as trade deals normally take several years to negotiate even with one country, and we have the whole of the world to do individual deals with and only enough negotiators to deal with a few at a time.

Given how much food we need to import simply to feed the nation, however, we may well have to accept some quick and unfavourable deals with food producing nations - India, for example, who if memory serves have already stated they will require freedom of movement and work to the UK for Inda as a term of any trade deal. Or the USA, who are pretty much guaranteed to demand we lower our food import standards and allow US companies unfettered access to the NHS (Mr Trump is on record as saying he vews Brexit as a means to redress the unfairness of the NHS sytem in regards to the profit margins of US medical companies). I'm not sure even the Tories would want to see long term food shortages.

Me, I do have plans, up to and including a small financial reserve for humanely euthanising my beloved pets in the event I can no longer obtain food for them. Hopefully it's unlikely to come to that, but as No Deal is completely untested waters, there's no telling.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Not really. For most of that the government has been continually moving the expectations for what leave will look like, whilst repeatedly reassuring the country (and businesses especially) that there will be no major disruptions to trade and a deal that ensures we won't end up on WTO basic rules.
> 
> This brings us back to the London snowplough metaphor. Do you spend tens of millions of pounds on preparing for handling an extreme event that may never occur, or do you take a more measured approach and trust things won't get that bad.
> 
> In this case, as mentioned, the Powers That Be have repeatedly told people there's little point in preparing for a No Deal as it won't happen. So until recently most businesses will mainly have prepared for a Bad Deal (significantly increased costs but no significant delays on import/export. etc.). I doubt many individuals have any plans at all.
> 
> Now everyone is suddenly staring down the barrel of the No Deal, basic WTO rules scenario they were reassured wouldn't happen, with barely three months to prepare for it. Nor do they have much to go on as to how that will play out, as no other country in the world trades on basic WTO rules; all have treaties, agreements, customs unions, deals etc. to make trade easier.
> 
> Now, I'm kind of assuming that you support perpetually staying on WTO rules with at least the EU, given you have made it clear you don't want any kind of deals or agreements etc. with the EU and we can't negotiate with individual EU member countries. I'm not sure whether or not you also support staying on WTO rules with the rest of the world as well? OK, it can be guaranteed that in the event of a No Deal it is likely we will be on WTO basic rules for quite some time, as trade deals normally take several years to negotiate even with one country, and we have the whole of the world to do individual deals with and only enough negotiators to deal with a few at a time.
> 
> Given how much food we need to import simply to feed the nation, however, we may well have to accept some quick and unfavourable deals with food producing nations - India, for example, who if memory serves have already stated they will require freedom of movement and work to the UK for Inda as a term of any trade deal. Or the USA, who are pretty much guaranteed to demand we lower our food import standards and allow US companies unfettered access to the NHS (Mr Trump is on record as saying he vews Brexit as a means to redress the unfairness of the NHS sytem in regards to the profit margins of US medical companies). I'm not sure even the Tories would want to see long term food shortages.
> 
> Me, I do have plans, up to and including a small financial reserve for humanely euthanising my beloved pets in the event I can no longer obtain food for them. Hopefully it's unlikely to come to that, but as No Deal is completely untested waters, there's no telling.


The UK already trade with countries on WTO rules so why are these going to be different? All this hyperbole from remainers is riddiculous to say the least and scaremongering to make people come around to their narrow way of thinking.

Yes only 12 Parliament weeks left until 11pm on the 29th March 2019. Businesses are going to be getting emails, letters and advice to prepare for no deal and the public are to through social media and TV adverts.

Businesses have been warned of a no deal scenario 2 years ago so did have 2 years to prepare so did the public. Doesn't matter if the goal posts move you should have still prepared as no one knew which way the ball was going to be kicked.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK already trade with countries on WTO rules so why are these going to be different? All this hyperbole from remainers is riddiculous to say the least and scaremongering to make people come around to their narrow way of thinking.


*sigh* No, we don't. No country in the world trades exclusively on basic WTO rules. Not even the ultra-insular North Korea. That is simple fact. Through the EU we have agreements and arrangements with most countries on the planet, including those we don't have full blown deals with. There is a vast difference between trading on WTO rules for a tiny percentage of imports and exports, and 100% of them. That is simple logistics.



stockwellcat. said:


> Yes only 12 Parliament weeks left until 11pm on the 29th March 2019. Businesses are going to be getting emails, letters and advice to prepare for no deal and the public are to through social media and TV adverts.


And I guarantee you that a good percentage of the public will still expect life to carry on with no noticeable changes, then complain when they have problems. That is simple psychology 



stockwellcat. said:


> Businesses have been warned of a no deal scenario 2 years ago so did have 2 years to prepare so did the public. Doesn't matter if the goal posts move you should have still prepared as no one knew which way the ball was going to be kicked.


And what, exactly, do you think businesses should have done? Built tens of millions of pounds worth of storage facilities that may never be needed, that they were TOLD would not be needed? Stockpiled materials - IF they could afford to? Where would the money have come from?

You can't simply dismiss the practicalities and limitations of being in business as hyperbole and scaremongering. Even the government hasn't really done any preparation for No Deal yet (I suspect some poor bod somewhere is desparately trying to source rather a lot of temporary block-and-wire fencing to erect along the Irish border just in case), or they would have been frantically building customs yards at UK ports for the last two years, wouldn't they?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Martial law?
> 
> Didn't see that on the side of a bus...
> 
> View attachment 382362


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/19/london-2012-extra-troops-standby

The total number of armed forces personnel at the 2012 London Olympics were 17 000 - almost twice the number in Afghanistan!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/19/london-2012-extra-troops-standby
> 
> The total number of armed forces personnel at the 2012 London Olympics were 17 000 - almost twice the number in Afghanistan!


And I didn't see one of them as I was living in London at the time when the 2012 London Olympics were on.

The only time I saw soldiers in London was when they beefed up security at Parliament, Downing Street and other tourist spots in central London after last years terror attacks but the number then were alot lower than 3,500. Personally it didn't bother me seeing them.


----------



## Arnie83

So let me get this straight:

The government wanted to trigger Article 50 without Parliament's approval and it took a court case to stop them.

They wanted - and still want - to change EU laws using Henry VIII powers and thus bypass Parliament.

They tried to stop a court case which ruled that we had unilateral powers to rescind Article 50.

They were ruled in Contempt of Parliament for refusing to comply with a vote.

They pulled the promised meaningful vote because they were going to lose.

They are running down the clock so that the only alternative to May's Deal is No Deal.

They are refusing to ask the People if May's Deal is actually what they want, in case it isn't.

And we're Leaving - paying £39 billion, and damaging future GDP growth and jobs - because some people think the EU is undemocratic.

Is that about right?


----------



## KittenKong

The Bollocks To Brexit tour bus in Durham this morning met by a counter pro Brexit/EDL protest.

Makes you proud to be British doesn't it.

Guess the eggs would've been "Lion Quality"...


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/we-are-living-under-a-brexit-dictatorship/19/12/


----------



## KittenKong

Serious question...


----------



## Magyarmum

Just arrived in my in box

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm


----------



## stockwellcat.

PMQ's is funny today.

PM accused Corbyn of holding a pantomime and he mouthed stupid woman.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Just arrived in my in box
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm





> *European Commission has today started implementing its "no deal" Contingency Action Plan.*


So it is ok for the EU to do this yet when the UK does it some remainers go on a hissy fit.


----------



## Elles

We aren’t living under a brexit dictatorship, people voted for it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> We aren't living under a brexit dictatorship, people voted for it.


Hope you had a nice time with cheekyscrip in Gibraltar?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> PMQ's is funny today.
> 
> PM accused Corbyn of holding a pantomime and he mouthed stupid woman.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's have been repeatedly told today in PMQ's that if they want a deal to vote for the deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Anna Sour-bry (Soubry) has just been shouted down. Yesterday she threatened to quit as an MP. She got told by the PM that if she doesn't want no deal to vote for this deal.

It is becoming apparant I was correct in saying that Parliament are going to be offered this deal and if it is rejected no deal or a proper brexit as the UK will be just leaving. There will be no debate on alternatives to this deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Patrick McLoughlin is requesting that the speaker punishes Corbyn as he saw him mouth stupid woman to the PM. The speaker did not see it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh it is getting heated. The leader of the house has raised a point were the speaker called her a stupid woman and is requesting an apology.

Anna Soubry is requesting he deals with it and is requesting Corbyn apologises. The speaker is refusing. She is threatening to get the video footage. He is still refusing. This has kicked things off in the chamber.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh it is getting heated. The leader of the house has raised a point were the speaker called her a stupid woman and is requesting an apology.
> 
> Anna Soubry is requesting he deals with it and is requesting Corbyn apologises. The speaker is refusing. She is threatening to get the video footage. He is still refusing. This has kicked things off in the chamber.


Have they really not got better things to discuss?


----------



## stockwellcat.

The speaker has agreed to look at the evidence after the next 2 statements. The footage has been tweeted about what Corbyn mouthed. The speaker said he will make a judgement.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366162945458176
It is all over the newspapers as well.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> We aren't living under a brexit dictatorship, people voted for it.


He's quoting from am ultra left wing rag - one more step and they'll drop into Putin's lap!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-london-economic/


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Jeremy Corbyn's guide to a progressive socialist Christmas*
19th December 2018











*Get Daily Mash headlines:*

*WITH shopping to do and parties to go to, it's easy to forget the true meaning of Christmas - international socialism. Here's how to have a left-wing festive season.*

*Avoid militarist films*

Reject capitalist war profiteering by not watching militarist propaganda like The Great Escape. I will also be avoiding superhero films due to their sickening elitism.

*Have a marrow-based dinner*

I love having people over for a sumptuous Christmas dinner, so I'll be making my famous boiled marrow. Make sure your guests definitely get the invitation or there's a danger no one will turn up, like last year.

*Buy left-wing presents*

Everyone loves socialist Christmas presents. This year I'm getting my wife a fascinating book I discovered called _From Nye Bevan to Neoliberalism: Changing Economic Challenges Facing the Modern Welfare State_. At 804 pages it'll last a lot longer than a bottle of Chanel No. 5!

*Be 'revolutionary' with your tree*

Instead of a fairy on top of your tree, challenge bourgeois conservatism and put a scowling figure of Leon Trotsky up there.

*Don't forget the young socialists!*

This year all my young relatives will be getting action figures from a wonderful non-profit socialist toy shop I found in Islington. I can't wait to see them having adventures with Bearded 1980s CND Man and Earnest Middle Class Activist Woman.

*Leave something out for Santa*

On Christmas Eve I leave out 10 carrots and 10 mince pies to encourage Santa to share profits equally among his reindeer workforce.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> We aren't living under a brexit dictatorship, people voted for it.


Well, I for one could see the UK sleepwalking into a fascist dictatorship if leave won.

As you say, they voted for it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> Have they really not got better things to discuss?


Yes they have but Corbyn was being insulting and disrespectful to the PM mouthing stupid woman. Make the decision yourself what he mouthed:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366162945458176There is a standard set in Parliament about saying or doing these kinds of things and he should be reprimanded. He quickly left the chamber after PMQ's ended.

I hope the speaker takes the appropriate action?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Anna Sour-bry (Soubry) has just been shouted down. Yesterday she threatened to quit as an MP. She got told by the PM that if she doesn't want no deal to vote for this deal.
> 
> It is becoming apparant I was correct in saying that Parliament are going to be offered this deal and if it is rejected no deal or a proper brexit as the UK will be just leaving. There will be no debate on alternatives to this deal.


Yes, it's funny isn't it. She changes her stance just because Corbyn was alleged to have mouthed, "Stupid Woman" at May.

I was always suspicious at Sourbry's motives.

Never trust a Tory.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Well, I for one could see the UK sleepwalking into a fascist dictatorship


Well I cannot. One we do not have a facist Parliament or Government and 2 we do not have a facist leader. It wouldn't be allowed.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes they have but Corbyn was being insulting and disrespectful to the PM mouthing stupid woman. Make the decision yourself what he mouthed:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366162945458176There is a standard set in Parliament about saying or doing these kinds of things and he should be reprimanded. He quickly left the chamber after PMQ's ended.
> 
> I hope the speaker takes the appropriate action?


People's lives and futures are at stake and all they have to worry about is whether Corbyn mouthed, "Stupid Woman" or not.

It's absolutely pathetic.

I say that with the greatest of disrespect to May and most of parliament in general.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, it's funny isn't it. She changes her stance just because Corbyn was alleged to have mouthed, "Stupid Woman" at May.
> 
> I was always suspicious at Sourbry's motives.
> 
> Never trust a Tory.


Well what Corbyn done was wrong. Wrong against women and wrong against the Parliamentary code.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> People's lives and futures are at stake and all they have to worry about is whether Corbyn mouthed, "Stupid Woman" or not.
> 
> It's absolutely pathetic


Who's lives and futures are at stake?
Savid Javid said just now those living over here from EU countries can stay and are welcome to stay. I do not see that as being peoples lives and futures being at stake as you put it.

It was an direct insult to the PM and women in Parliament as this is not the first time this has happened. The speaker called Leadsom stupid woman earlier this year. This cannot be allowed to go on. If this happened in a work place the employee would be suspended or saked.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> People's lives and futures are at stake and all they have to worry about is whether Corbyn mouthed, "Stupid Woman" or not.
> 
> It's absolutely pathetic.
> 
> I say that with the greatest of disrespect to May and most of parliament in general.


So how would you feel if it was your wife who had been insulted and not the PM?


----------



## Elles

He is making himself less and less electable. If we’re to have an alternative, he needs to go.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Hope you had a nice time with cheekyscrip in Gibraltar?


Was only there for a couple of days, so only managed a quick meet up for coffee.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The speaker has agreed to look at the evidence after the next 2 statements. The footage has been tweeted about what Corbyn mouthed. The speaker said he will make a judgement.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366162945458176
> It is all over the newspapers as well.


It looks like he is saying it to me.


----------



## Magyarmum

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/1...rner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+John

*UK to stay in Common Transit Convention*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Cartoon of the day. :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/19/uk-to-stay-in-common-transit-convention/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+John
> 
> *UK to stay in Common Transit Convention*


That should ease things a bit.

It doesn't remove the need for regulatory border checks, though.


----------



## KittenKong

Knew it would be a matter of time before someone dragged religion into Brexit.

Oh dear! I have sinned for not backing it!


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Cartoon of the day. :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 382586


:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Knew it would be a matter of time before someone dragged religion into Brexit.
> 
> Oh dear! I have sinned for not backing it!


This guy was pointing out the error of our ways while I and 700,000 others were marching for a People's Vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I and 17,410,741 people voted leave the EU. That is alot more than an estimated 700,000 that went for a walk in London because they disagree with 17,410,742 people that voted to leave the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry to bark on about religion as this is what this post will be about. Do not read if you are not interested.

Nimrod son of Cush and the great grandson of Noah in the old testament is believed to have been the first globalist. What this has to do with Brexit is this the EU are Globalist. The bible clearly warns against globalism. I can put a video up from someone who knows better than me but he is a preacher so I think most of you would switch off. If you want me to I will put it on here.

I have nothing to do with any religious organisation or otherwise I found this out today myself by doing research.

Religion had no part in my decision to vote leave at all and I do not see Farage as a religious cult figure at all.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The will of these people?
> View attachment 382600


Well they are in for a shock as the UK is already recruiting outside of the EU as in Doctors, Nurse, Health workers, mechanics, scientists, corner shop owners etc and have done long before the EU came into existence and will continue to do so after Brexit.

Even though I voted leave these racists do not represent me as I am not racist.


----------



## Elles

Murderers, child abusers, smugglers, money launderers, drug pushers, thieves, beggars, slavers, gang masters..

May quite likely have voted remain as leaving might make their criminal activities more difficult and less convenient, if they’re checked and delayed at the ports.

Shall we lump Remainers in with them? 

The whole point of Brexit clearly isn’t to make people poorer and racists happy.  The comment is clearly meant to provoke and cause upset though.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The will of these people?
> View attachment 382600


Sorry matey that photo's got sweet f.a to do with Brexit!

The graffiti was painted on the home of a Portuguese woman living on a Loyalist Estate in Co Armagh in June 2015!

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/...an-targeted-in-racist-graffiti-attack-131244/

You and your rabble rouser friends must try harder!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Sorry matey that photo's got sweet f.a to do with Brexit!
> 
> The graffiti was painted on the home of a Portuguese woman living on a Loyalist Estate in Co Armagh in June 2015!
> 
> http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/...an-targeted-in-racist-graffiti-attack-131244/
> 
> You and your rabble rouser friends must try harder!


Blimey, it's Sherlock Holmes !


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Murderers, child abusers, smugglers, money launderers, drug pushers, thieves, beggars, slavers, gang masters..
> 
> May quite likely have voted remain as leaving might make their criminal activities more difficult and less convenient, if they're checked and delayed at the ports.
> 
> Shall we lump Remainers in with them?
> 
> The whole point of Brexit clearly isn't to make people poorer and racists happy.  The comment is clearly meant to provoke and cause upset though.


The point I was making is the increase of this sort of xenophobia during and after the referendum. There is nothing to suggest all leave voters think this way, even if a good proportion of them do.

While not arguing with your comments as I believe there's good and bad all over regardless of country of origin, skin colour, religion etc. etc. Applicable to "Brits" too as much as everyone else.

The thing is, the government are making the racists happy with their xenophobic policies.

The old soundbite of, "Reducing immigration to the tens of thousands" reared its ugly head again.

If I was a brexiter I'd be concerned as to how the EDL have hi-jacked banners such as from, "Leave Means Leave" as evident on today's egg throwing protest in Durham today.

I've yet to hear such groups criticising the use of their material by neo nazi groups like the EDL from the likes of Leave Means Leave.

Perhaps you could point me in the direction where this has been condemned by such groups or individuals?

Seeing that the photo has clearly upset a lot of people, and believe me I found it upsetting, it has now been deleted.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Blimey, it's Sherlock Holmes !


Poirot actually!


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Patrick McLoughlin is requesting that the speaker punishes Corbyn as he saw him mouth* stupid woman *to the PM. The speaker did not see it.


It was stupid people if you look closely, mind you she is a STUPID WOMAN


----------



## Magyarmum

Why worry about Brexit when there's a


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The point I was making is the increase of this sort of thing during and after the referendum.


You really paint a negative picture of the country you live in. Personally I have not seen an increase in this type of behaviour at all.


> There is nothing to suggest all leave voters think this way,


So in one statement you say this and then say this


> even if a good proportion of them do.


Wrong. A large portion of leave voters are law abiding citizens who do not tolerate the kind of behaviour you suggest we carry out to our neighbours and fellow country people. Your imagination runs wild sometimes and you paint such a negative picture about your fellow country people.



> The thing is, the government are making the racists happy with their xenophobic policies.


No they aren't. They are respecting what people voted for in 2016.


> The old soundbite of, "Reducing immigration to the tens of thousands" reared its ugly head again.


That is what was voted for in 2016.


> If I was a brexiter I'd be concerned as to how the EDL have hi-jacked banners such as from, "Leave Means Leave" as evident on today's egg throwing protest in Durham today.
> 
> I've yet to hear such groups criticising the use of their material by neo nazi groups like the EDL from the likes of Leave Means Leave.
> 
> Perhaps you could point me in the direction where this has been condemned by such groups or individuals?


Stop tarring all leave voters with the same brush will ya. It is getting repetitive and I am sick of reading you comparing normal law abiding citizens to nazi's, edl supporters and the such. It is you stoking fear and scaremongering and negative fellings towards remain voters saying things like this. What do other leave supporters think of you spouting out this trash on other forums I wonder?

My response could have been much different to this but I took the calm and collective response instead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> It was stupid people if you look closely, mind you she is a STUPID WOMAN


Professional lip readers said it was "stupid woman". But let the nation decide. Corbyn is destroying the labour party and making them totally unelectable.


----------



## Dave S

It's at times like this, with what Corbyn said or did not say, that it really does not make me proud to be British.

What with all this in fighting about the PM's deal for leaving EU, and the possibility of leaving with no deal and all that entails all we care about is what Corbyn said.

It's pathetic!, we are really a complete political laughing stock.

There is a primary school, opposite my house and I bet the kids there are a great deal more polite and less argumentative that that shower of highly paid and over rated bunch that allegedly represent us - the people - are _we_ all like that? NO thank goodness.

Come the next election we should all remember this and remind our "Leaders" how stupid they really are and invite them to grow up.

And as for condescending Bercow, the sooner he goes the better. He seems to have lost the ability to stay neutral, he seems to favour Labour in his decisions.

Rant over and frustration set aside...……………………….


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> It was stupid people if you look closely, mind you she is a STUPID WOMAN


I must say I've looked closely quite a few times, and it still looks like 'stupid woman' to me, though there are probably more important things going on.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Professional lip readers said it was "stupid woman". But let the nation decide. Corbyn is destroying the labour party and making them totally unelectable.


some have also said, he said people but the BBC have only reported it once.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> some have also said, he said people but the BBC have only reported it once.


It was definitely stupid woman I have seen the clip over and over. The majority of the house of commons agree as well that he said stupid woman.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> It was definitely stupid woman I have seen the clip over and over.


and me!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> and me!


The majority of the house of commons said he mouthed stupid woman as well.


----------



## Dave S

Ok lets agree that he said something disrespectful, people or woman, it does not matter BUT, we have all looked at the action replay and it definitely looks like "woman". then he stands up and says he said "people" .

Leave the jury out on that but remember, someone is telling lies. Over a simple thing like that. He should have had the balls to stand up and apologise for whatever he said. Insulting the PM by saying woman or the whole of the Conservative party by saying people.
This idiot could be the next prime minister god help us.

And Mrs. May should be mature enough to stop playing pantomime dame and get on with the job in hand.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> The majority of the house of commons said he mouthed stupid woman as well.


Well they would wouldn't they, any thing to take the pressure off Brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Well they would wouldn't they, any thing to take the pressure off Brexit


So why are you choosing to pick on me about what Corbyn said as others have also said he mouthed stupid woman? From what I saw he said stupid woman and many other people online have said the same thing. Even Sturgeon commented. The man has done himself and his party no good today.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> It was stupid people if you look closely, mind you she is a STUPID WOMAN


 No he didnt . he said stupid woman . Look in the mirror and do an exaggerated Per and then wer and you will see the difference . P and B get muddled by lip readers but not P and W. 
Lip readers have confirmed this.

I am shocked that he so blatantly lied on national TV and denied it. I think that's a stupid thing to do . That's something Trump does.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> No he didnt . he said stupid woman . Look in the mirror and do an exaggerated Per and then wer and you will see the difference . P and B get muddled by lip readers but not P and W.
> Lip readers have confirmed this.
> 
> I am shocked that he so blatantly lied on national TV then denied it. I think that's a stupid thing to do . That's something Trump does.


He has lost any support he had. Sturgeon even commented. You don't need to be a lip reader to see what he mouthed.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> This guy was pointing out the error of our ways while I and 700,000 others were marching for a People's Vote.


Well , that's democracy for you .


----------



## KittenKong

Dave S said:


> It's at times like this, with what Corbyn said or did not say, that it really does not make me proud to be British.
> 
> What with all this in fighting about the PM's deal for leaving EU, and the possibility of leaving with no deal and all that entails all we care about is what Corbyn said.
> 
> It's pathetic!, we are really a complete political laughing stock.
> 
> There is a primary school, opposite my house and I bet the kids there are a great deal more polite and less argumentative that that shower of highly paid and over rated bunch that allegedly represent us - the people - are _we_ all like that? NO thank goodness.
> 
> Come the next election we should all remember this and remind our "Leaders" how stupid they really are and invite them to grow up.
> 
> And as for condescending Bercow, the sooner he goes the better. He seems to have lost the ability to stay neutral, he seems to favour Labour in his decisions.
> 
> Rant over and frustration set aside...……………………….


Agree, but not re Bercow who has shown impartiality being a Tory, which of course is his job as speaker.


----------



## kimthecat

Dave S said:


> Ok lets agree that he said something disrespectful, people or woman, it does not matter BUT, we have all looked at the action replay and it definitely looks like "woman". then he stands up and says he said "people" .
> 
> Leave the jury out on that but remember, someone is telling lies. Over a simple thing like that. He should have had the balls to stand up and apologise for whatever he said. Insulting the PM by saying woman or the whole of the Conservative party by saying people.
> This idiot could be the next prime minister god help us.
> 
> And Mrs. May should be mature enough to stop playing pantomime dame and get on with the job in hand.


Heartily agree with this. Sometimes its not the act but the lying about it that people get caught out on.

When he was first elected leader , his followers were saying how honest and principled he was etc , it was like he was Jesus . I hope people will see him for what he really is.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry to bark on about religion as this is what this post will be about. Do not read if you are not interested.
> 
> Nimrod son of Cush and the great grandson of Noah in the old testament is believed to have been the first globalist. What this has to do with Brexit is this the EU are Globalist. The bible clearly warns against globalism. I can put a video up from someone who knows better than me but he is a preacher so I think most of you would switch off. If you want me to I will put it on here.
> 
> I have nothing to do with any religious organisation or otherwise I found this out today myself by doing research.
> 
> Religion had no part in my decision to vote leave at all and I do not see Farage as a religious cult figure at all.


I feel sad that you feel you have to apologise for talking about religion.

ETA Im sure people of all religions voted on both sides.


----------



## Dave S

Kittenkong, I respect your comments but actually disagree re Bercow.
He would not look at video recordings of the alleged incident in which case perhaps the argument could have been settled very quickly, neither will he apologise to Andrea whatshername for calling her a "stupid woman". This and the fact that quite a few people have stated that he is a rude bully.

Anyway, moving on, has this helped Mrs M and her Brexit plan. I have a feeling that the EU have thrown her the biggest lifeline of her career by stating that the UK can, at the end of the day, state that we have changed our minds and will not be leaving. Seems either that or extend the leaving date will be the only options on the table if the vote is in January.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Well , that's democracy for you .


Indeed it is, and everyone left him completely alone to do his own thing. (Though the somewhat disturbing outfit, even more disturbing little dance he was doing, and the absolutely terrifying message on his placard might have had something to do with that!)


----------



## Arnie83

Dave S said:


> Ok lets agree that he said something disrespectful, people or woman, it does not matter BUT, we have all looked at the action replay and it definitely looks like "woman". then he stands up and says he said "people" .
> 
> Leave the jury out on that but remember, someone is telling lies. Over a simple thing like that. He should have had the balls to stand up and apologise for whatever he said. Insulting the PM by saying woman or the whole of the Conservative party by saying people.
> This idiot could be the next prime minister god help us.
> 
> And Mrs. May should be mature enough to stop playing pantomime dame and get on with the job in hand.


The thing that gets me is the politicians apparently still haven't learned that when you find yourself in a hole, you stop digging.

If he'd put his hands up, apologised and added some mitigation along the lines of how passionately he believes in [whatever] then everyone would have moved on by now. But he lied, and every news broadcast is showing he video of his lips saying "woman" and wondering who he thinks he's trying to kid. He's a twit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> not re Bercow who has shown impartiality


Impartiality :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Regardless it is not a sexist comment. If a comment. I don’t particularly like Corbyn the Two Faced but if I called him a stupid man then is that sexist?

This no confidence motion was shambolic. Stupid man.

Bercow is the one of few decent Tories.

One of a few good men still standing and considering the farcical Parliament he will not stay long.

Britain is ruled by muppets. 
People watch Parliament as they watch Trump.
With utter disbelief.

Britain that was seen as serious, businesslike, stiff upper lip...

Leadership challenges during crucial negotiations, both leading parties divided.

Their leaders mostly interested in being next PM .
The loss of face is incredible.

ERG just interested in what will benefit a very narrow group - there sponsors.

People from EU just ask wach other - how they could ever believe those people?

Can Jeremy Kyle step in there please?
Lie detector needed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Bercow is the one of few decent Tories.


Decent :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

You do know @cheekyscrip and @KittenKong Bercow called the leader of the house a stupid woman in May 2018 and then denied it and refused to apologise. Yet you try and paint him out to be one of the best Tories.

https://theguardian.com/politics/20...-making-stupid-woman-remark-to-andrea-leadsom

I have just one thing to say. Wouldn't you say something if it was your husband or wife that was on the receiving end of someone saying our mouthing this and demand an apology for disrespecting your husband or wife?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Regardless it is not a sexist comment. If a comment. I don't particularly like Corbyn the Two Faced but if I called him a stupid man then is that sexist?
> 
> This no confidence motion was shambolic. Stupid man.
> 
> Bercow is the one of few decent Tories.


I call May a disgusting vile xenophobic robotic woman. That's not being sexist as I highly rate Nicola Sturgeon.

Gender shouldn't come into it. It's the ability to do one's job regardless whether a man or woman.

If Corbyn said what they alleged him to have said, and quite frankly I couldn't care less, then "Woman" would of course be the correct term.

Nothing sexist about that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> You do know @cheekyscrip and @KittenKong Bercow called the leader of the house a stupid woman in May 2018 and then denied it and refused to apologise. Yet you try and paint him out to be one of the best Tories.
> 
> https://theguardian.com/politics/20...-making-stupid-woman-remark-to-andrea-leadsom
> 
> I have just one thing to say. Wouldn't you say something if it was your husband or wife that was on the receiving end of someone saying our mouthing this and demand an apology for disrespecting your husband or wife?


I totally agree with his opinion on Loathsome and great pity that Fallon resigned just because this nasty witch brought back a little silly bit of banter.

Such a tender lady, oh, so offended...

She is vicious. Nasty.

Bercow is a fair man and this woman is really unbearable.

*not a sexist comment, calling woman a woman.
Men and women could be equally stupid.

Spiteful, petty and cruel. Loathsome is.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I totally agree with his opinion on Loathsome and great pity that Fallon resigned just because this nasty witch brought back a little silly bit of banter.
> 
> Such a tender lady, oh, so offended...
> 
> She is vicious. Nasty.
> 
> Bercow is a fair man and this woman is really unbearable.
> 
> *not a sexist comment, calling woman a woman.
> Men and women could be equally stupid.
> 
> Spiteful, petty and cruel. Loathsome is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


>


Remember when she had a go at May because May is childless - and according to Loathsome then should not be a PM?

Throwing at anyone their childlessness in battle for a chair is a height of nastiness.

What she did to Fallon was spiteful.

Good man, I might not share his views but he actually cared for his country not just career and had to go shamed and diminished by something like that.
Reminds me of Mrs Umbridge in Harry Potter books.


----------



## Elles

To me it doesn’t make sense that he said people. 

The new immigration rules will be much more inclusive than the Eu ones. Businesses that exploit low paid workers from abroad will be really pleased. Doing away with the FOM rules from the Eu, has given a much larger area to cast their net and had the opposite effect to what many people thought they were voting for.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> To me it doesn't make sense that he said people.
> 
> The new immigration rules will be much more inclusive than the Eu ones. Businesses that exploit low paid workers from abroad will be really pleased. Doing away with the FOM rules from the Eu, has given a much larger area to cast their net and had the opposite effect to what many people thought they were voting for.


I like the sound of the new immigration rules that Savid Javid announced today and there is definitely alot of scope there as there is some areas that he admitted needed more work on. The new immigration rules don't come into effect till 2021 after the transition period so there is still 2 years to iron out the creases so to speek and I believe that they could potentially make the UK a great place for talent to come to. When I say talent I am talking about those that have job skills that will be able to help fill vacancies in the job market with none skilled, skilled workers and highly skilled workers. There is potentially alot of scope there. I know it ends free movement with the EU which remainers want to cling onto but it could stop the free flow of criminals, benefit system users as they are proposing that those coming to the UK won't be able to have access to the benefits system saving the UK money and only attracting workers.

I am sorry if anyone finds my comments offensive but this is the way I interruptrated things after listening to Savid Javid's statement in the House of Commons today and to me it doesn't sound a bad thing ending freedom of movement with the EU. Let's not forget and Savid Javid said this today, this will not affect the Irish being able to freely move from Ireland and the UK as they are in the Common Travel Area (which predates the EU) and he made a point, pointing out this will not affect this.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Remember when she had a go at May because May is childless - and according to Loathsome then should not be a PM?
> 
> .


She didnt have a go at May about it. She was being interviewed about why she would be a better PM and she said Being a mum meant she had "a very real stake" in Britain's future.
Obviously a very upsetting and thoughtless thing to say thing to say and she apologised and Mrs May accepted her apology.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here is the details on the White Paper on the new skills based immigration system: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-skills-based-immigration-system

Here is the downloadable White Paper: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-future-skills-based-immigration-system


----------



## Elles

Migrants including Eu migrants cannot access our benefits system easily already. One of the problems this causes is that Brits won't take low paid jobs as they will barely get more than on benefits, maybe a tenner extra a week for some working a 40 hour week, but migrants have to take anything, as they don't get benefits and can potentially be chucked out if they haven't found anything within 3 months. It's one of the reasons we have these gang masters and the exploitation of what can be close to, if not slave labour. People afraid of being sent home where they might have no prospects at all and taking any work they can get, with the hope of finding something better.

The plan is to change this from 3 to 12 months and bring in low paid workers from anywhere, not just the Eu. This has the potential to be even worse than now, for those who want to see an end to exploitation and low pay. Eu workers at least have some guarantee of standards in their home country that may not be as the wealthier Eu countries, but is nothing like poorer countries globally. Our very system encourages the so called 'economic migrants' to take low paid, unskilled work for greedy corporations. It could actually be better if migrants could get benefits and wouldn't work for peanuts either, with any restrictions being something different, another approach. 

As you say @stockwellcat. it's not for some time yet, but i think it's one of the ways we are manipulated. Not giving migrants benefits, being unclear on it, but still allowing people to come here with no work, or way of supporting themselves unless they take anything they can get, contributes to an exploitative system, big business accessing cheap labour and encourages discrimination imo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46613900


----------



## stockwellcat.

Received this in my inbox this evening:
















And people want him to run this country. No chance.

What Corbyn has done has ignited a sexism row in Parliament with what he mouthed today. As I said before he has done himself no good and he has now put alot of distance between him being Party Leader and his Dream of becoming PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 382672


I have one of these and it isn't what is being suggested by the poster of this. It is advice to keep you safe in the event of a nuclear attack. It talks about how to barricade yourself in your home and remain safe in the event of a nuclear bomb going off. These leaflets were readily available in the height of the cold war. The information in them is now obsolete because with ever changing technology if a nuclear weapon hit anywhere today you wouldn't have time to do anything suggested in these old leaflets.

Anyway off this grim topic.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Migrants including Eu migrants cannot access our benefits system easily already. One of the problems this causes is that Brits won't take low paid jobs as they will barely get more than on benefits, maybe a tenner extra a week for some working a 40 hour week, but migrants have to take anything, as they don't get benefits and can potentially be chucked out if they haven't found anything within 3 months. It's one of the reasons we have these gang masters and the exploitation of what can be close to, if not slave labour. People afraid of being sent home where they might have no prospects at all and taking any work they can get, with the hope of finding something better.
> 
> The plan is to change this from 3 to 12 months and bring in low paid workers from anywhere, not just the Eu. This has the potential to be even worse than now, for those who want to see an end to exploitation and low pay. Eu workers at least have some guarantee of standards in their home country that may not be as the wealthier Eu countries, but is nothing like poorer countries globally. Our very system encourages the so called 'economic migrants' to take low paid, unskilled work for greedy corporations. It could actually be better if migrants could get benefits and wouldn't work for peanuts either, with any restrictions being something different, another approach.
> 
> As you say @stockwellcat. it's not for some time yet, but i think it's one of the ways we are manipulated. Not giving migrants benefits, being unclear on it, but still allowing people to come here with no work, or way of supporting themselves unless they take anything they can get, contributes to an exploitative system, big business accessing cheap labour and encourages discrimination imo.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46613900


Might it not be better to clamp down on those who exploit the migrants rather than clamping down on the migrants?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 382672


Don't you EVER check your sources?

Apparently NOT as this is now the second time you've posted emotive and erroneous information.

For all you know this could have been posted by a Russian troll living in Moscow, whose mission is to create as much chaos and fear as possible and you're playing right into their hands!

Protect and Survive was produced by the British Government in the 70's - 80's giving information about what to do in the event of a nuclear attack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_and_Survive


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> It looks like he is saying it to me


Yes, it does. I suppose they'll enlist the services of a lip reader next.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> You and your rabble rouser friends must try harder!


I do remember in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, everything that happened to a non-Brit was blamed on Brexit. Polish man has shed vandalised in July 2016 . . . blame it on Brexit. The papers loved it. Bulgarian cleaner has handbag snatched . . . let's blame Brexit for that, too.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Obviously a very upsetting and thoughtless thing to say thing to say


It was scraping the barrel a bit and she probably regretted it as soon as she said it, but the papers made a meal of it of course.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 382672


I'm sure all the people who actually lived through the threat of nuclear attach find that hilarious.

It does amaze me through all this what people actually find funny - or people themselves actually think they are funny creating it.

Don't give up the day job.


----------



## noushka05

The state of this country under the tories yet what Corbyn did or didn't say matters more? All this faux outrage & hypocrisy is sickening. Its just being whipped up to distract from the utter shambles the tories have made of this country & brexit.

Laura Smith: _"The level of hypocrisy in this place is quite astounding! On this side we have to put up with the most disgraceful insults thrown at us, & nobody more so than Jeremy Corbyn, who has to put up with it, day in day out!"_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075429459044564992
*David Schneider*‏Verified account @davidschneider 22h22 hours ago
It's never been clearer that Theresa May is neither a Leaver or a Remainer. She's just an anti-immigration xenophobe. Go Home vans, the hostile environment, now sacrificing the country's prosperity and wrecking our economy to keep out Jonny Foreigner. That's all she cares about.










The very same Parliament that had just announced another £2bn for a kamikaze No Deal, enough to end rough sleeping in this country overnight. Shameful


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> No he didnt . he said stupid woman . Look in the mirror and do an exaggerated Per and then wer and you will see the difference . P and B get muddled by lip readers but not P and W.
> Lip readers have confirmed this.
> 
> I am shocked that he so blatantly lied on national TV and denied it. I think that's a stupid thing to do . That's something Trump does.


Evil witch would have been more appropriate:Smuggrin



Calvine said:


> I do remember in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, everything that happened to a non-Brit was blamed on Brexit. Polish man has shed vandalised in July 2016 . . . blame it on Brexit. The papers loved it. Bulgarian cleaner has handbag snatched . . . let's blame Brexit for that, too.


Brexit was driven by right wing populism. The leave campaign deliberately fuelled nationalism and xenophobia. Surely you remember racist Farage and that poster, Calvine?

Here are some facts for you to digest.

In 2016, hate crime rose sharply after the EU referendum, according to police figures.










Jo Brand talks about an increase in racist incidents following the EU referendum on #bbcqt There was a "clear spike in hate crime" around the time of the EU referendum, according to the Home Office https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-england-and-wales/ …


----------



## noushka05

*British in Europe*‏ @BritishInEurope
Our response to the EUCo proposals in the case of no-deal: 'We are appalled to learn that, while aviation and financial services merit an extension of current agreements in the case of no deal, people do not.... Read in full here: http://bit.ly/2Bt9ug8


----------



## noushka05

Perfectly summed up by Richard Corbett >>>

*Richard Corbett*‏: Theresa May falsely claims we need Brexit to control Immigration.

She doesn't mention that: -most migration to UK is from OUTSIDE the EU, entirely under UK rules -

EU free movement comes with conditions(finding a job or being self sufficient)which the Govt never applied

.........................................................................................

The tories are driven, not by evidence, or compassion but by greed & their backwards ideology.

"What we see is an ideology, not a sound immigration policy. I ask myself why we must defend something that is ultimately beneficial to this country: migration."

*The Government's Post-Brexit Plan Isn't Sound Policy, It's Dangerous Ideology*
With a proposed income threshold of £30,000 for skilled migrants, the White Paper sets out a bleak picture for the future of UK immigration

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/immigration-white-paper_uk_5c1a318ae4b0432554c62895


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *British in Europe*‏ @BritishInEurope
> Our response to the EUCo proposals in the case of no-deal: 'We are appalled to learn that, while aviation and financial services merit an extension of current agreements in the case of no deal, people do not.... Read in full here: http://bit.ly/2Bt9ug8


How reckless of the EU not to safeguard UK citizens rights to live in other European Countries. What they have done instead is told UK citizens to contact the respective Governments in the Countries they reside in to see what the procedure would be to stay there if the UK leaves with no deal.

EU Citizens rights will not change in the UK and Savid Javid clarified this yesterday. The EU pushed the UK to protect the rights EU citizens currently get (who are residing in this country at the time of the UK leaving the EU) if the UK leaves with no deal. The EU don't seem very reciprocal on this at all.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> It was scraping the barrel a bit and she probably regretted it as soon as she said it, but the papers made a meal of it of course.


She did regret it and she certainly wasnt "having a go" at May as Cheeky said.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> How reckless of the EU not to safeguard UK citizens rights to live in other European Countries. What they have done instead is told UK citizens to contact the respective Governments in the Countries they reside in to see what the procedure would be to stay there if the UK leaves with no deal.
> 
> EU Citizens rights will not change in the UK and Savid Javid clarfied this yesterday. The EU pushed the UK to protect EU citizens rights currently get if the UK leaves with no deal. The EU don't seem very reciprocal on this at all.


More fool you for trusting the most corrupt government in living memory.(& thats from someone who lived in a mining community under Thatchers regime)

Like Trump, the tories are gaslighting the public, and just like Trumps supporters, you are blind to it.


----------



## noushka05

Well said!

Grace Blakeley: _Far-right politicians scapegoat migrants for the economic problems caused by the rigged global trading system that has enriched them and their friends.

The left needs to stop ceding ground on both migration and globalisation and start telling the truth._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075401778798190600
,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> More fool you for trusting the most corrupt government in living memory.(& thats from someone who lived in a mining community under Thatchers regime)
> 
> Like Trump, the tories are gaslighting the public, and just like Trumps supporters, you are blind to it.


Well it is the EU not being reciprocal Noushka if the UK gets no deal. But hey you keep posting pages of hate towards your countries Government and leave voters. I think I will pop you back on ignore.

BTW I lived in Thatchers era, with the Coal Miner Strikes etc.


----------



## kimthecat

How hypocritical of people to say it doesn't matter that Corbyn blatantly lied on national telly. Of course we have important matters to be discussed but this is important too and shouldnt be swept under the carpet, He could well be our PM one day and he has proved to be untrustworthy . he made a load of promises that he knew he wouldn't be able to keep at the last election and now this .

He's like Blair , believes his own lies . :Vomit


----------



## noushka05

Leave campaigners hounding Anna Soubrey now. This is getting out of hand! I fear for prominent remainers.

_I know I'm going on about this, but I'm confused and disturbed at the fact this kind of behaviour continues to be tolerated.

It's exactly the kind of menace and rhetoric that ended with the death of a sitting_ MP


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075448896791474176
.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> How hypocritical of people to say it doesn't matter that Corbyn blatantly lied on national telly. Of course we have important matters to be discussed but this is important too and shouldnt be swept under the carpet, He could well be out PM one day and he has proved to be untrustworthy . he make made a load of promises that he new he wouldn't be able to keep at the last election and now this .
> He's like Blair , believes his own lies . :Vomit


I doubt very much he will become PM now. He ruined his chances yesterday. This isn't the first time he has been nasty to female MP's in Parliament. Would you like a PM like that?


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt very much he will become PM now. He ruined his chances yesterday. This isn't the first time he has been nasty to female MP's in Parliament. Would you like a PM like that?


I never liked him from the start and disappointed he was made leader. Te be fair though , some of the Tories are as bad. 
Misogyny has always been rife in the Houses of Parliament .


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Might it not be better to clamp down on those who exploit the migrants rather than clamping down on the migrants?


I didn't suggest any alternatives, or clamping down on the migrants? Our government isn't clamping down on anything, its policy is supporting the exploitation of workers by the big corporations. The clamping down on migrants and taking control of our borders promised by brexit is not just a myth, it's a manipulation and propaganda continuing to apportion blame in the wrong place.

We don't have the infrastructure in place to continue to support importing ready trained or cheap staff and, I'm sorry, but businesses, nhs, companies, agriculture, etc. should not be able to take ready trained skilled, or unskilled workers on a minimum pay, zero contract etc in this country, wherever they're from. It improves the economy, for whom? It's a pile of poo. Training should be more available and accessible here and people should get fair pay for fair work. We keep on going down the wrong path and this new immigration policy is still going down it.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/02/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-us-uk-employees

What is bringing about increases in pay and better conditions are fewer people available to take up jobs. The governments new immigration will make more people available not fewer. If workers don't crowd into one spot, the companies have to go where the staff are instead and that's better for everyone imo. and far from penalising people it's enabling them.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it is the EU not being reciprocal Noushka if the UK gets no deal. But hey you keep posting pages of hate towards your countries Government. I think I will pop you back on ignore.
> 
> BTW I lived in Thatchers era, with the Coal Miner Strikes etc.


You keep saying you've put me on ignore then respond to my posts. I dont believe you've ever put me on ignore:Hilarious.

This is your tory Britain. How ever anyone could support them is beyond my comprehension.

32,601 badgers were killed in 2018 badger cull
120,000 deaths due to austerity measures
3.9 million children living in poverty
Homeless people dying on the streets
Working families using foodbanks to survive

Thatcher tried to starve my family & community, with the help of the media she turned the country against us - but this government are going one further. They are going to trash the whole of the UK!



kimthecat said:


> How hypocritical of people to say it doesn't matter that Corbyn blatantly lied on national telly. Of course we have important matters to be discussed but this is important too and shouldnt be swept under the carpet, He could well be out PM one day and he has proved to be untrustworthy . he make made a load of promises that he knew he wouldn't be able to keep at the last election and now this .
> He's like Blair , believes his own lies . :Vomit


Were *you* lying when you said I was on ignore?:Smuggrin


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I doubt very much he will become PM now. He ruined his chances yesterday. This isn't the first time he has been nasty to female MP's in Parliament. Would you like a PM like that?





kimthecat said:


> I never liked him from the start and disappointed he was made leader. Te be fair though , some of the Tories are as bad.
> Misogyny has always been rife in the Houses of Parliament .


Corby will never get in, no

*Labour demand government explains £2m taxpayers' cash funding infowars unit which smeared Corbyn and Labour*

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...rs-unit-which-smeared-corbyn-and-labour/09/12*/*


----------



## Elles

I don't have you on ignore @noushka05 but I do scroll past the pages of copy/pastes you post in the mornings to try to get to what you're actually saying yourself. 

Do you get up early and read a bunch of Facebook, Twitter and bookmarked pages to copy for here?

Thatcher tried to starve your family? Labour governments of the time cut milk to more school kids and closed more mines than MT's government. Later they took us into war based on lies. We may need something entirely different, but it needs to be a boring mix, not these absolutes we get from our first past the post imo. While it is first past the post in current times, a conservative government is the best we have available. Labour are unelectable under Corbyn, but I do believe they have an excellent chance if they get rid of him, so many people dislike TM. Will they replace him?


----------



## Elles

The conservatives are not entirely responsible for working people accessing food banks and homeless dying on the streets (though you aren’t going to die at home in bed, if you have no home or bed). It’s the logistics that are at fault. There’s enough money, it’s just not getting to the right places at the right time and that does need addressing urgently. 

It was no different under any other government, especially those who changed the what and how, as this government has. All government bodies and staff need to be a damned sight more efficient and empathic, but they aren’t and won’t be by the nature of what they are. To them we are just a number, we can’t be much else, they need to have more efficient structure in place to deal with our numbers. That’s what things like poll tax and universal credit are/were supposed to be trying to do. It’s usually the implementation that’s at fault when these things end up going wrong.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> *British in Europe*‏ @BritishInEurope
> Our response to the EUCo proposals in the case of no-deal: 'We are appalled to learn that, while aviation and financial services merit an extension of current agreements in the case of no deal, people do not.... Read in full here: http://bit.ly/2Bt9ug8


I'm not quite sure what they were expecting. Unless I'm very mistaken the EU is made up of 27 countries each with their own rules and laws regarding residence, work or study for both EU and none EU citizens. To expect the EU Commission to give a blanket solution for every British ex-pat irrespective of which country they're living in would be impossible.

Certainly retired ex-pats in Hungary aren't too concerned, because in order to live here you have to take out permanent residence and the laws concerning working and studying in this country are quite clear, unlike for example France where you're not required to take out a "carte de sejour" in order to live, work or study there. And I know, having considered Slovakia as an alternative to Hungary, their laws are different again!


----------



## kimthecat

I think the drones at Gatwick Airport is a plot by Labour to distract the nation from Corbyns misogyny and lying.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I think the drones at Gatwick Airport is a plot by Labour to distract the nation from Corbyns misogyny and lying.


Or maybe by Juncker and his crew to spy on how well we're standing up to the strain


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I never liked him from the start and disappointed he was made leader. Te be fair though , some of the Tories are as bad.
> Misogyny has always been rife in the Houses of Parliament .


I know it is being interpreted as misogyny, (and I'm sure he lied), but what word do people think he should have used after 'stupid'? "Stupid Prime Minister" doesn't really seem to cut it!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I think the drones at Gatwick Airport is a plot by Labour to distract the nation from Corbyns misogyny and lying.


I don't think the Labour party need a distraction, it's the Tories doing it and making themselves look stupid at that same time. They are just killing time till the holiday recess.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I know it is being interpreted as misogyny, (and I'm sure he lied), but what word do people think he should have used after 'stupid'? "Stupid Prime Minister" doesn't really seem to cut it!


He should have kept his "gob" well and truly shut!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Or maybe by Juncker and his crew to spy on how well we're standing up to the strain


 :Hilarious



Arnie83 said:


> I know it is being interpreted as misogyny, (and I'm sure he lied), but what word do people think he should have used after 'stupid'? "Stupid Prime Minister" doesn't really seem to cut it!


He should have said that is stupid , meaning what she was saying was stupid rather than making it a personal insult.
Cameron got crap for saying Calm down dear , an expression taken from an insurance ad .

TBF Its about time they *all* acted like adults and dropped the long held tradition of jeering and mocking etc


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> No he didnt . he said stupid woman . Look in the mirror and do an exaggerated Per and then wer and you will see the difference . P and B get muddled by lip readers but not P and W.
> Lip readers have confirmed this.
> 
> I am shocked that he so blatantly lied on national TV and denied it. I think that's a stupid thing to do . That's something Trump does.


The fact he stood up and bare faced lied about what he said is the worst imo

I wouldn't be offended if someone referred to me as a stupid woman, nor my husband being called a stupid man.

It's never OK to call a child stupid, however, nor anyone who is "vulnerable".

Mrs May can take a silly insult like that surely? Corbyn intended it as an insult of course, but actually just showed himself up, then exacerbated it by lying. Creep! 

And as for the "boo hoo stop moaning about what Corbyn said and get back to the serious stuff" it would have been just the same the other way round and Labourites would have been up in arms!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> He should have said that is stupid , meaning what she was saying was stupid rather than making it a personal insult.
> Cameron got crap for saying Calm down dear , an expression taken from an insurance ad .
> 
> TBF Its about time they *all* acted like adults and dropped the long held tradition of jeering and mocking etc


Oh no they mustn't stop - the jeering and mockery is the one thing that make the debates so interesting and unique!

By comparison if you listen to the US Congress debates they're tedious and boring, boring


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Oh no they mustn't stop - the jeering and mockery is the one thing that make the debates so interesting and unique!
> 
> By comparison if you listen to the US Congress debates they're tedious and boring, boring


The Elizabethans did it better 

You've got a big mouth.
In sooth, thy dank cavernous tooth-hole consumes all truth and reason!
You are ugly.
Thy vile canker-blossom'd countenance curdles milk and sours beer.
You are fat.
By my trowth, thou dost make the millstone seem as a feather what widst thy lard-bloated footfall!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> The Elizabethans did it better
> 
> You've got a big mouth.
> In sooth, thy dank cavernous tooth-hole consumes all truth and reason!
> You are ugly.
> Thy vile canker-blossom'd countenance curdles milk and sours beer.
> You are fat.
> By my trowth, thou dost make the millstone seem as a feather what widst thy lard-bloated footfall!


*. Thou sodden-witted lord! Thou hast no more brain than I have in mine elbows*


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> that poster,


''That poster'' was published in several papers with no adverse comments; it was only when he (NF) used it for his Leave campaign that people were suddenly aghast and indignant.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Oh no they mustn't stop - the jeering and mockery is the one thing that make the debates so interesting and unique!
> 
> By comparison if you listen to the US Congress debates they're tedious and boring, boring


Does it not make you cringe though? I seriously can't watch it without feeling embarrassed for them!


----------



## Magyarmum

The Daily Mash
*Christmas cracker jokes for Brexiters*
20th December 2018









*ARE you sick of pathetic Christmas cracker jokes that don't support Brexit? Just print out these gags and slip them inside normal crackers for some Brexmas hilarity!*

*Q:* Why did the chicken cross the road?

*A:* To escape from the EU.

*Q:* What lies at the bottom of the sea shivering?

*A:* Usually 'a nervous wreck' but hopefully a thieving French fisherman who's been fishing in our waters and has rightfully been sunk by the Royal Navy.

*Q:* Why did the unelected EU bureaucrat shit the bed?

*A:* Because he was Jean-Claude Drunker.

An Englishman, and Irishman and a Scotsman go into a pub. Luckily it's a Wetherspoons and the Irishman and the Scotsman get some sense talked into them about the corrupt protection racket which is the EU.

*Q:* Who delivers presents to cats at Christmas?

*A:* Probably an Eastern European working for Amazon who should sod off and let British people have a job.

*Q:* How many members of the metropolitan liberal elite does it take to change a lightbulb?

*A:* Two - one to hold the stepladder and one to screw the indigenous white working class.

Darth Vader the Brexiter says to Luke Skywalker "I know what you're getting for Christmas". Luke says "How?". And Darth says, "I got you a Keep Calm and Carry On mug."

*Q:* How do you stop a Remainer drowning?

*A:* Take your Zimmer frame off his head.

*Q:* What do you get if you cross a sheep with a kangaroo?

*A:* An excellent example of trading opportunities after Brexit with Anglosphere nations like Australia.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I think the drones at Gatwick Airport is a plot by Labour to distract the nation from Corbyns misogyny and lying.


A second drone was flying over the runways at Gatwick at 12:35pm.









Police marksmen are now out on the runway areas of Gatwick airport ready to shoot down anymore drones.









They are hoping to have flights resumed by 4pm.

I wonder who is flying these drones over Gatwick? Very serious situation as it could bring a plane down. Luckily all flights in and out of Gatwick have been suspended.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> *Q:* Who delivers presents to cats at Christmas?
> 
> *A:* Probably an Eastern European working for Amazon who should sod off and let British people have a job.


My eastern European delivery man for Amazon is a nice bloke. Although he did tell me once that I was buying too much from them!


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> The fact he stood up and bare faced lied about what he said is the worst imo
> 
> I wouldn't be offended if someone referred to me as a stupid woman, nor my husband being called a stupid man.
> 
> It's never OK to call a child stupid, however, nor anyone who is "vulnerable".
> 
> Mrs May can take a silly insult like that surely? Corbyn intended it as an insult of course, but actually just showed himself up, then exacerbated it by lying. Creep!
> 
> And as for the "boo hoo stop moaning about what Corbyn said and get back to the serious stuff" it would have been just the same the other way round and Labourites would have been up in arms!


I'm not a fan of Corbyn but without actual audible evidence as to what he said none of us are at any liberty to suggest what he uttered under his breath. Leave that rubbish to the tabloids.

In the same sense we had to believe what May said about not calling a GE and more recently about holding the parliamentary vote. Was she called a liar about them?

Is Theresa May not strong enough to take criticism? I thought she was supposed to be strong and stable.

Quite frankly, it wouldn't bother me if he called her a vile evil ******** c** out loud.

Didn't Captain Manwaring frequently call Pike a, "Stupid Boy"? That used to raise laughs on Dad's Army.

The UK is facing its biggest, albeit self inflicted crisis since WWII and the biggest worry is what Corbyn might have said?

No wonder its in such a mess.


----------



## KittenKong

More reasons to be "proud" to be
"British"...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ound-her-and-shout-hitler-jibes-a4022286.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> More reasons to be "proud" to be
> "British"...
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ound-her-and-shout-hitler-jibes-a4022286.html
> 
> View attachment 382825


Absolutely disgusting behaviour towards an elected Member of Parliament.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://dorseteye.com/corbyn-does-n...media-tory-says-bitch-well-you-know-the-rest/


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...11/philip-hammond-accused-calling-fellow-tory


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> He should have said that is stupid , meaning what she was saying was stupid rather than making it a personal insult.
> Cameron got crap for saying Calm down dear , an expression taken from an insurance ad .
> 
> *TBF Its about time they all acted like adults and dropped the long held tradition of jeering and mocking etc*


You certainly won't get any argument from me on that!!


----------



## KittenKong

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...11/philip-hammond-accused-calling-fellow-tory


I learnt about this too yesterday.
I don't recall seeing that on the front page of the tabloids.


----------



## KittenKong

This didn't reach the tabloid front pages either.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=590952518032208&id=259980387796091


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> A second drone was flying over the runways at Gatwick at 12:35pm.
> View attachment 382821
> 
> 
> Police marksmen are now out on the runway areas of Gatwick airport ready to shoot down anymore drones.
> View attachment 382819
> 
> 
> They are hoping to have flights resumed by 4pm.
> 
> I wonder who is flying these drones over Gatwick? Very serious situation as it could bring a plane down. Luckily all flights in and out of Gatwick have been suspended.
> View attachment 382822
> 
> View attachment 382823
> 
> View attachment 382824


Gatwick is to remain shut as drones keep popping up and down around the airfield. Police are unsure how many drones are being used. Anyone caught could face 5 years in prison.

Passengers that have had their flights diverted have been causing staff onboard the aeroplanes hassle and onboard one plane sat on the tarmac for 4 hours at standstead a man tried to open the aeroplane door and someone shouted he's a terrorist. Police have since removed the person that tried to open the plane door from the plane and arrested him. Passengers are still onboard.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Gatwick is to remain shut as drones keep popping up and down around the airfield. Police are unsure how many drones are being used. Anyone caught could face 5 years in prison.
> 
> Passengers that have had their flights diverted have been causing staff onboard the aeroplanes hassle and onboard one plane sat on the tarmac for 4 hours at standstead a man tried to open the airplane door and someone shouted he's a terrorist. Police have since removed the person that tried to open the plane door from the plane and arrested him. Passengers are still onboard.


I hope they catch who is doing this. It is really mean to all the passengers who have had their Christmas plans ruined and to the Airport Staff who have to deal with it , not to the mention the cost to the Airline companies .


----------



## Elles

That is really bad. I would be freaking out if it was me delayed and diverted, or left on a plane for hours from Gib.  I’d be terrified and probably be the guy trying to open the door and get off. They are bringing in laws to register and track drones and I think want to charge a fee every time someone flies one. I expect it will now get through parliament without too much trouble after this craziness.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I hope they catch who is doing this. It is really mean to all the passengers who have had their Christmas plans ruined and to the Airport Staff who have to deal with it , not to the mention the cost to the Airline companies .


Aeroplane companies are already talking about abandoning services for the day and cutting there loses. The airport is now saying it might be 7pm tonight before they might reopen. Police marksmen have said they cannot shoot the drones down as bullet fragments would spray over parts of the runway and could cause a danger to aircraft. Whoever is doing (person or people) this are being very inconsiderate to those wanting to come here to the UK for their Christmas holidays or wanting to get away for their christmas holidays or escape Brexit. Passengers affected are being rescheduled to other flights and being put up in hotels were they can be put up (as the hotels are normally booked up this time of year) or have had their flights diverted to other UK airports and taxis being paid for to take them to Gatwick. This must be costing airline companies a fortune.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> That is really bad. I would be freaking out if it was me delayed and diverted, or left on a plane for hours from Gib.  I'd be terrified and probably be the guy trying to open the door and get off. They are bringing in laws to register and track drones and I think want to charge a fee every time someone flies one. I expect it will now get through parliament without too much trouble after this craziness.


There are laws already: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-drone-laws-bring-added-protection-for-passengers
They are planning to get everyone who buys a drone to register it I do believe.

They were silly things to invent for the public to purchase and should have remained only available to the Ministry of Defense and Law Enforcement.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The agencies now involved in this drone incident at Gatwick are:
Ministry of Justice
Ministry of Defense
Ministry of Aviation
Department of Transport


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The agencies now involved in this drone incident at Gatwick are:
> Ministry of Justice
> Ministry of Defense
> Ministry of Aviation


and the Queen ! 




  *Elizabeth Windsor*‏ @*Queen_UK* 52m52 minutes ago

Get the RAF on the sodding blower and shoot the bastards out of the air. #*GatwickDrones*


----------



## stockwellcat.

*LIVE: Military to provide assistance over Gatwick drone disruption and an Emergency Cobra meeting underway.*

All flights in and out of Gatwick suspended until further notice.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Police have just announced they are searching for drones of an industrial specification.

An Aviation Security Expert believes this is deliberate as the GPS in the drones would have had to have been over ridden. So whoever is doing it is doing it deliberately.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> I'm not a fan of Corbyn but without actual audible evidence as to what he said none of us are at any liberty to suggest what he uttered under his breath. Leave that rubbish to the tabloids.
> 
> In the same sense we had to believe what May said about not calling a GE and more recently about holding the parliamentary vote. Was she called a liar about them?
> 
> Is Theresa May not strong enough to take criticism? I thought she was supposed to be strong and stable.
> 
> Quite frankly, it wouldn't bother me if he called her a vile evil ******** c** out loud.
> 
> Didn't Captain Manwaring frequently call Pike a, "Stupid Boy"? That used to raise laughs on Dad's Army.
> 
> The UK is facing its biggest, albeit self inflicted crisis since WWII and the biggest worry is what Corbyn might have said?
> 
> No wonder its in such a mess.


Now I remember why I don't usually bother with this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I'm not a fan of Corbyn but without actual audible evidence as to what he said none of us are at any liberty to suggest what he uttered under his breath. Leave that rubbish to the tabloids.
> 
> In the same sense we had to believe what May said about not calling a GE and more recently about holding the parliamentary vote. Was she called a liar about them?
> 
> Is Theresa May not strong enough to take criticism? I thought she was supposed to be strong and stable.
> 
> Quite frankly, it wouldn't bother me if he called her a vile evil ******** c** out loud.
> 
> Didn't Captain Manwaring frequently call Pike a, "Stupid Boy"? That used to raise laughs on Dad's Army.
> 
> The UK is facing its biggest, albeit self inflicted crisis since WWII and the biggest worry is what Corbyn might have said?
> 
> No wonder its in such a mess.


What aload of ****e
I am not apologising when I say I wouldn't like you to welcome me to the UK. 
There you go I am glad that link works (ignore that is). I am sick of the insults and venom that you keep spouting. Yes that's right I have decided with no heistation to stick you on ignore. Damn it looks like I am only talking to a few people on this thread now.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I'm not a fan of Corbyn but without actual audible evidence as to what he said none of us are at any liberty to suggest what he uttered under his breath. Leave that rubbish to the tabloids.


:Hilarious Thanks for that I needed a laugh .


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> There are laws already: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-drone-laws-bring-added-protection-for-passengers
> They are planning to get everyone who buys a drone to register it I do believe.
> 
> They were silly things to invent for the public to purchase and should have remained only available to the Ministry of Defense and Law Enforcement.


We have one. The new laws they want will register each drone and track it via a chip, with a fee to be paid every time you fly one. The fee being suggested is about 4 quid a go, I think.

Far better to monitor them than ban them altogether. There are a lot of things we have for leisure that we don't actually need, they don't need to ban them all and have us living like robots. People have been flying model aeroplanes and helicopters etc for over 100 years without this kind of publicity over them. People use them for lots of reasons, races, estate agents, parcel delivery, photographing inaccessible areas, wedding photography. A lot cheaper than getting someone to film from a helicopter. 

I think the main problem has been that as usual technology has progressed faster than the law, but in this case whoever is doing this is breaking the law and more than likely will go to prison for it if they catch them. In the future it should be easier to monitor them. Some conspiracists think the government itself is behind it, because a particular private company stands to make a lot of money for tracking them and there were some objections which will now undoubtedly be bypassed and the new laws pass without further ado in 2019.  :Bag I'll be glad when they catch the guy and prove that particular theory wrong.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> What aload of ****e


Yup! Even audible evidence can be misunderstood .
I don;t think he saw my earlier post explaining that P and W have different distinct lip movements.
I learnt that at lip reading classes .
Of course KK knows better than me !


----------



## Arnie83

*Putin tells May to 'fulfil will of people' on Brexit*

Vladimir Putin has said the UK should not hold a second referendum on Brexit, insisting Theresa May must "fulfil the will of the people".

Offering public support that the embattled British prime minister could probably do without, Putin said he understood May's position in "fighting for this Brexit".

"The referendum was held," the Russian president said from Moscow during his annual press conference, which is broadcast on national television. "What can she do? She has to fulfil the will of the people expressed in the referendum."​
Gee what a guy! He's a champion of democracy. He's even got the neverendum rubbish off pat.

"Someone disliked the result, so repeat it over and over? Is this democracy? What then would be the point of the referendum in the first place?"​
Certainly no ulterior motive with good old Vlad.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people


----------



## Elles

Tbh if a plane is so vulnerable to a little drone, even if they are totally banned, how do we stop terrorists using them? World wide too? Scary. I think I’ve just been on the last flight I’m going on.

If he did call her a stupid woman he’d be far better off admitting it, if he didn’t he’d still be better off admitting that he thinks she’s stupid. He does doesn’t he? Most of us think he’s stupid and aren’t afraid to say so. He should just keep quiet or apologise, not insist he didn’t say it whether he did or not imo.and I do think he did. He should also resign and let someone else lead.


----------



## Elles

Lol @ Putin the champion of democracy. :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Yup! Even audible evidence can be misunderstood .
> I don;t think he saw my earlier post explaining that P and W have different distinct lip movements.
> I learnt that at lip reading classes .
> Of course KK knows better than me !


I've been practicing and it's now impossible to tell whether I'm saying "keekle" or "wungan"


----------



## stockwellcat.

For 2018.​Parliament is now in recess until the 7th January 2019.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Over 60% of people taking part in a Sky survey believed he did say "stupid woman" and over 70% say he should apologise. I am saying nothing more.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> He should just keep quiet or apologise, not insist he didn't say it whether he did or not imo.and I do think he did. He should also resign and let someone else lead.


While I would love to see someone like David Lammy lead the Labour party I find the suggestion he should quit over, "Did he or didn't he call TM a stupid woman" absolutely ludicrous.

Other politicians have done far worse and got away with it.

Apologies if I misunderstood your post if you were suggesting Corbyn should've resigned sometime ago unrelated to this.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I'm not a fan of Corbyn but without actual audible evidence as to what he said none of us are at any liberty to suggest what he uttered under his breath. Leave that rubbish to the tabloids.


My little sister is deaf, would you like me to ask her?


----------



## Dave S

I personally would not like Corbyn to resign after his vocal gaffe. Lets face it, whilst he is there Labour are un-electable.
Unfortunately Conservative are also going the same way but at least TM has tried to put a plan together.

PM Q's are a public show, not to be taken seriously but it just shows how divided Parliament is over important issues that affect the people who elected them - you and I.

The bigger question is really are they working in our best interest? I don't think so.
Our local MP, The Right Honourable Sir Mike Penning is about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Open our local paper and the only page his face is not on is usually Situations Vacant. (Yet)
I am sure he does loads of good work locally for charities, schools etc but wish he would sort out the main issues that are causing us problems like a town and district of over 120000 people and no hospital - it was run down to almost closure by the labour government and we have to go 10 miles to the next town to a hospital that is right next to Watford football ground. (When I say right next, I mean right next as in I was there once and wandered out of the ward and called up to the terrace "Whats the score"). 
Imagine getting there in an emergency on a match day - it's bad.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I've been practicing and it's now impossible to tell whether I'm saying "keekle" or "wungan"


:Hilarious Is that Vulcan?


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382864
> 
> 
> Police have just announced they are searching for drones of an industrial specification.
> 
> An Aviation Security Expert believes this is deliberate as the GPS in the drones would have had to have been over ridden. So whoever is doing it is doing it deliberately.


Police have said it is not safe to reopen Gatwick airport for now as drones are still being flown over the airport runways. The army is on it's way to help the police.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> My little sister is deaf, would you like me to ask her?


You could do if she didn't mind. I used to be hearing and started to lose my hearing in my teens , Im still losing it and am profoundly deaf.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> My little sister is deaf, would you like me to ask her?


Why are people still going on about this? Why not the criticism about Philip Hammond and the other Tory who clearly mouthed, "Stupid Bitch" at Yvette Cooper?

Is that more important than Brexit?


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> he did tell me once that I was buying too much from them!


Just explain to him that you need the boxes for your cats. I have one who eats them (!!) and two more who jump into them as soon as the contents are removed. They totally refuse to leave them and sleep in a cat bed until the little grey pervert has eaten so much of them that there are just a few scraps of cardboard left. By then, hopefully, another box will have been delivered. I have another who eats Christmas cards (noisily).


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 382872
> 
> For 2018.​Parliament is now in recess until the 7th January 2019.


Does that mean we'll have nothing to argue about until next year??

Perhaps we should start a thread about Trump just to keep us going?

Otherwise I'll have to take up knitting!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Does that mean we'll have nothing to argue about until next year??
> 
> Perhaps we should start a thread about Trump just to keep us going?
> 
> Otherwise I'll have to take up knitting!


Good idea ! I was thinking of starting one entitled Meanwhile in America ! A lot has been going on and one of his cronies has just received a prison sentence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Does that mean we'll have nothing to argue about until next year??
> 
> Perhaps we should start a thread about Trump just to keep us going?
> 
> Otherwise I'll have to take up knitting!


:Hilarious
We need a thread to entertain us for 2 weeks :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

I read that (allegedly) people whose cars were parked at LGW and who landed in STN were being ripped off to the tune of £600 for a taxi from STN (where they landed) to LGW where their car was. Great, eh?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I read that (allegedly) people whose cars were parked at LGW and who landed in STN were being ripped off to the tune of £600 for a taxi from STN (where they landed) to LGW where their car was. Great, eh?


The airlines are meant to be paying for the taxis back to Gatwick. Some are coming from Manchester and Edinburgh back to Gatwick. I do believe the train services are accepting airline passengers who were meant to have landed at Gatwick free of charge to travel to Gatwick from were their plane landed eg Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edingburgh etc.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Why are people still going on about this? Why not the criticism about Philip Hammond and the other Tory who clearly mouthed, "Stupid Bitch" at Yvette Cooper?
> 
> Is that more important than Brexit?


 Who are you to tell people what they can or cannot discuss on PF. Are you a Mod ?

Do you have a film clip of the stupid bitch comment ?

he shouted it out . there should be audio evidence .

ETA There is a newspaper link
https://metro.co.uk/2017/04/19/tory...our-mp-yvette-cooper-a-b-during-pmqs-6585120/

and film clip.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Do you have a film clip of the stupid bitch comment ?


Here's the video of Corbyn calling May "stupid woman" but I didn't know he went on to call her stupid b***h and I watched the Parliament channel as the drama unfolded as I was watching PMQ's.




You do not need to be a professional lip reader to see he mouthed "stupid woman".


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Here's the video of Corbyn calling May "stupid woman" but I didn't know he went on to call her stupid b***h
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 Corbyn didnt call May that . KK is talking about another MP who said that to Yvette Cooper last year


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> You could do if she didn't mind. I used to be hearing and started to lose my hearing in my teens , Im still losing it and am profoundly deaf.


No problem, she mainly signs but I'm sure she'll have a view.

As an aside, her hearing is deteriorating over time so the rest of us sisters (3 of us) I think are also going to learn to sign. Which I'm actually really interested in doing.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn didnt call May that . KK is talking about another MP who said that to Yvette Cooper last year


Oh.
Well this behaviour in Parliament is unacceptable which ever way you look at it. The code of conduct in Parliament needs to be alot tighter. The behaviour in Parliament is not acceptable by any standards. They need to stop calling each other names and get on with their jobs and understand their behaviour cannot be acceptable. They are meant to represent their consituents and the entire of the UK. They are meant to be our representatives.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> You could do if she didn't mind. I used to be hearing and started to lose my hearing in my teens , Im still losing it and am profoundly deaf.


She's pretty sure he says woman. She said she can't get 'people' to fit into his lip movements personally.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh.
> Well this behaviour in Parliament is unacceptable which ever way you look at it. The code of conduct in Parliament needs to be alot tighter. The behaviour in Parliament is not acceptable by any standards. They need to stop calling each other names and get on with their jobs and understand their behaviour cannot be acceptable. They are meant to represent their consituents and the entire of the UK.


yes . 

Dennis Skinner got banned from the commons for a day for calling Cameron Dodgy Dave.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> She's pretty sure he says woman. She said she can't get 'people' to fit into his lip movements personally.


I agree with her.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The politicians, ministers and MP's are paid by us through our taxes to represent us. They need to stop acting like children in a school play ground calling each other names and get on with what they are paid to do. If they call each other names there needs to be some form of punishment like suspension or something else. It is embarrasing the way they behave in Parliament. Parliament needs reforming in the UK and a code of conduct estabilishing and adhering to. Leaders from all over the World watch what goes on in Parliament and I dread to think what they think when our representatives start calling each other names etc.


----------



## Dave S

stockwellcat. said:


> The politicians, ministers and MP's are paid by us through our taxes to represent us. They need to stop acting like children in a school play ground calling each other names and get on with what they are paid to do. If they call each other names there needs to be some form of punishment like suspension or something else. It is embarrasing the way they behave in Parliament. Parliament needs reforming in the UK and a code of conduct estabilishing and adhering to. Leaders from all over the World watch what goes on in Parliament and I dread to think what they think when our representatives start calling each other names etc.


Spot on Stockwell.
Can we also hit them in the pockets and pay them by results only.


----------



## kimthecat

Why do people think that because you dislike Corbyn , then you love the Tories. I dont like them either. 
Its my dinner time now . I'll be back


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Why do people think that because you dislike Corbyn , then you love the Tories. I dont like them either.
> Its my dinner time now . I'll be back


Enjoy!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Why do people think that because you dislike Corbyn , then you love the Tories. I dont like them either.


I now support:


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Its my dinner time now . I'll be back


Enjoy your dinner.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dave S said:


> Can we also hit them in the pockets and pay them by results only.


Now that would be an excellent idea.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Enjoy!


It was chicken casserole , the only thing I can cook ! 

learning sign language s a good idea. Some areas have evening classes.

I have learnt a few signs which is handy as it gives you clues when you are also listening .


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I now support:
> View attachment 382901


Absolutely ! Greens maybe but they get so few votes. I used to support LIb Dems .


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Andrea Leadsom: 'We need to treat each other with respect'*

The Leader of the House of Commons says more needs to be done to improve the way people are treated in parliament.

https://news.sky.com/video/andrea-leadsom-we-need-to-treat-each-other-with-respect-11586776

How about treating everyone with respect and not just those that reside with you in Parliament? Try treating your fellow UK citizens with respect.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Who are you to tell people what they can or cannot discuss on PF. Are you a Mod ?
> 
> Do you have a film clip of the stupid bitch comment ?
> 
> he shouted it out . there should be audio evidence .
> 
> ETA There is a newspaper link
> https://metro.co.uk/2017/04/19/tory...our-mp-yvette-cooper-a-b-during-pmqs-6585120/
> 
> and film clip.


Not sure . Bitch and pitch , could be both . The lips smack together for B and P , if you are shouting it is emphasised.
It depends if you think he said Stupid or Leadership before hand .
Stupid has two syllables and leadership three , Stew and Lead are totally different lip movements . Stew is with more pushed forward lips perhaps like a kiss and Lead more like a smile or grimace.

Its very bad if David Mundell did say it .

Funny how Remainers tell you to believe the experts opinion yet dismiss any experts opinion if they disgree with it.
( I dont consider myself an expert for lip reading but the majority of expert lip reader agreed that Corbyn did say Stupid woman . )


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> While I would love to see someone like David Lammy lead the Labour party I find the suggestion he should quit over, "Did he or didn't he call TM a stupid woman" absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> Other politicians have done far worse and got away with it.
> 
> Apologies if I misunderstood your post if you were suggesting Corbyn should've resigned sometime ago unrelated to this.


The latter. He's been messing up for some time now. If it wasn't for Corbyn, labour would have a chance imho, even if only because people don't like TM. The conservatives can currently get away with blue murder because there's no competition.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> The latter. He's been messing up for some time now. If it wasn't for Corbyn, labour would have a chance imho, even if only because people don't like TM. The conservatives can currently get away with blue murder because there's no competition.


It is ashame as I have said before I have supported Labour since I left school at the tender age of 17. Corbyn is making Labour unelectable I agree. I do not like the way Labour is going under Corbyn and refuse to vote for them under a Corbyn leadership. They need a new leader who is going to move labour into the centre ground of politics, who will win labour elections. Under Corbyn labour will never win an election no matter how many Corbynites there are. It is ashame labour is in the shambles it is in. Corbyn remaining leader will make Labour unelectable for at least a decade.

I am still voting for


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn, Bercow and who ever else has called other MP's names in Parliament should be ashamed of themselves for this type of bullying and immature behaviour that school children do. They should be mature enough to treat each other with respect. The majority of them are solicitors, doctors, lawyers etc. I would not like them representing or treating me if they treat each other the way they do in Parliament. It is shameful.

If they cannot forfeit themselves to give an apology for this kind of carry on they should not receive the attention they get and should be ignored. They are mature adults for crying out loud. I say mature losely as they don't act it.


----------



## KittenKong

Well if England's Glory matches can be made in Sweden I'm sure British Airways could be based outside Britain.
:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Latest From Gatwick Airport*

Gatwick spokesman tells Sky News that passengers should not come to the airport "for the foreseeable future", including tomorrow.

_"Gatwick Airport's runway remains unavailable because of continued drone sightings and some airlines have cancelled all flights. _

_"There is significant disruption at Gatwick today as a result of what appears to be a deliberate attempt to disrupt flights, and we anticipate disruption to continue into tomorrow._

_"We are extremely disappointed that passengers are being affected by this especially at such an important time of year. We are working with our airlines to put plans in place to recover our operations once given the go ahead to re-open our runway. _

_"We are prioritising the welfare of those at the airport by deploying staff into our terminals to look after people as best we can._

_"Once again, we apologise to our passengers for the continued disruption. Safety is our absolute priority."_

----------
Ryanair moves Friday flights from Gatwick to Stansted


----------



## gskinner123

I haven't had time to read more recent pages of this thread so it has probably been asked already - would anyone have their knickers in a twist if May was seen to have mumbled ''stupid man"?


----------



## kimthecat

gskinner123 said:


> I haven't had time to read more recent pages of this thread so it has probably been asked already - would anyone have their knickers in a twist if May was seen to have mumbled ''stupid man"?


I think a lot of people are more angry about the fact he lied about saying it ,rather than what he said .


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat.

 *rab livingstone*‏ @*rablivingstone* 2h2 hours ago

The Russians will be watching this #*GatwickDrones* fiasco and kicking themselves for spending billions on stealth aircraft.


----------



## Guest

Just jumping in here a bit off topic...

I’m a kiwi, I lived in the uk for 2 years (about 7 years ago on youth mobility)and would love to return permanently.

I’ve read about the new immigration plans which looks good for me, however am I right in thinking skilled migrants aren’t allowed to settle permanently? So how would one become a citizen then?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The latter. He's been messing up for some time now. If it wasn't for Corbyn, labour would have a chance imho, even if only because people don't like TM. The conservatives can currently get away with blue murder because there's no competition.


While any Labour leader including David Miliband had he became one would've been destroyed by the media I cannot disagree with this as Corbyn hasn't helped himself either sadly. As a traditional Labour voter and supporter I like a lot of what he stands for, but over Brexit that's a different matter. He has disappointed me immensely.

Having said that, I hope he sticks to his guns over not backing TM's Brexit plan. It'll have to do for now.

But should May win, which I expect she will do that would guarantee her premiership until at least 2022. It would be a good time for him to stand down. I think he'll be put under pressure to do so.



gskinner123 said:


> I haven't had time to read more recent pages of this thread so it has probably been asked already - would anyone have their knickers in a twist if May was seen to have mumbled ''stupid man"?


Seeing they didn't when a Tory called Yvette Cooper a stupid bitch, certainly not.

Always one rule for Labour, another for the Tories.

The media have the public wrapped around their little finger. Why do you think Leave won the 2016 referendum?


----------



## noushka05

_

45 year old man, working as a kitchen assistant, but sleeping rough, found dying outside Parliament whilst politicians bicker & snarl about whether or not Corbyn said stupid woman.

If ever there was a reminder of what a state Britain is in, it is this._

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...tminster-entrance_uk_5c1a621de4b0432554c6a3b6

............................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I think a lot of people are more angry about the fact he lied about saying it ,rather than what he said .


Well its a pity then, that they don't vent their anger at May & her government who are lying to the public on a daily basis about deadly serious matters, matters which actually affect real peoples lives.


James O'Brien listed off all the issues which he considers to be more important than Corbyn's "stupid woman" comment, and it's powerful



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075710319635369986

..........................................................


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Dodgy Dave.


Love that . . . I find that too funny to be offensive TBH.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat.
> 
> *rab livingstone*‏ @*rablivingstone* 2h2 hours ago
> 
> The Russians will be watching this #*GatwickDrones* fiasco and kicking themselves for spending billions on stealth aircraft.


The Russians are definitely watching. Brexit is a gift.

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏: _Putin will be happy with 2018. Europe is endlessly distracted by a myopic Brexit & the rise of the populist hard right, encouraged by the Kremlin. Trump arrives with a Xmas present on Syria.

Big challenges ahead for European nations in 2019_! https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/vladimir-putin-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true …


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Well this behaviour in Parliament is unacceptable which ever way you look at it


If he had just apologised the whole thing would have died a death, but he apparently denied having said it, which doesn't show him in a very good light.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> If he had just apologised the whole thing would have died a death, but he apparently denied having said it, which doesn't show him in a very good light.


Ahh but a lot of lip readers are saying are he didn't say woman. This one says he actually said >>>

*Migs*‏ @mfemigs Dec 1: _I am a trained lip reader, and can categorically state that Jeremy Corbyn actually said "Stop murdering homeless people, pensioners and the poor with your policies designed to appease the fascists in your party"_

15,915 likes


----------



## KittenKong

A little island isolated from the rest of Europe to the mercy of the US to the West and Russia to the East not worry anyone?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> If he had just apologised the whole thing would have died a death, but he apparently denied having said it, which doesn't show him in a very good light.


Even if he did the media won't let it rest.

Remember when Gordon Brown called a bigoted woman a bigoted woman off camera? Cost him the 2010 election that did...


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> but I do scroll past the pages of copy/pastes you post in the mornings


Yes, many of us do; we are of the opinion that life is too short to fill it time and time again with stultiloquy. We have lives elsewhere.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Even if he did the media won't let it rest.


You are probably right: they need something to fill their pages until Thomas Markle pops up again (or until Meghan gives birth).


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 383010
> 
> A little island isolated from the rest of Europe to the mercy of the US to the West and Russia to the East not worry anyone?


We are still part of NATO.

More scaremongering.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I cannot see the full conversation but leaving the EU does not affect our NATO or UN membership at all.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> You are probably right: they need something to fill their pages until Thomas Markle pops up again (or until Meghan gives birth).


And what would we do without Twitter and Facebook?????

Much more fun than peeping from behind net curtains and gossiping with the neighbours.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't have you on ignore @noushka05 but I do scroll past the pages of copy/pastes you post in the mornings to try to get to what you're actually saying yourself.
> 
> Do you get up early and read a bunch of Facebook, Twitter and bookmarked pages to copy for here?
> 
> Thatcher tried to starve your family? Labour governments of the time cut milk to more school kids and closed more mines than MT's government. Later they took us into war based on lies. We may need something entirely different, but it needs to be a boring mix, not these absolutes we get from our first past the post imo. While it is first past the post in current times, a conservative government is the best we have available. Labour are unelectable under Corbyn, but I do believe they have an excellent chance if they get rid of him, so many people dislike TM. Will they replace him?


I say plenty myself, but if I see something which resonates I'll share it on here. No one is forced to read it.

And I don't use facebook.

So you've read The Shock Doctrine, yet you still don't understand what Thatcher did was quite different to pit closures under labour governments. And the significance of Thatcher to Blairs leadership of the labour party & Iraq - you still dont get that either? Did you just scan the book? If you still have it, would you like me to reference relevant pages to save me from explaining to you on here?

Thatcher labelled my family, my community - 'the enemy within'. With her mates in the media, the tories tried to turn the whole country against us. The tories still use propaganda & the same divisive tactics to this day to hang onto power

...



Lurcherlad said:


> And as for the "boo hoo stop moaning about what Corbyn said and get back to the serious stuff" it would have been just the same the other way round and Labourites would have been up in arms!


If Corbyn was the one responsible for all this suffering and chaos. athough I'm not a labourite, I suspect many labourites wouldn't care what was thrown at him.



Calvine said:


> ''That poster'' was published in several papers with no adverse comments; it was only when he (NF) used it for his Leave campaign that people were suddenly aghast and indignant.


God knows what kind of paper you read then! That poster was a blatant attempt to incite racial hatred. It was straight out of the Nazi propaganda book (compare the two below!).

Hungarys racist leader, Viktor Orban, used virtually the same poster as racist Farages in his election campaign to whip up hatred in his country.












stockwellcat. said:


> Absolutely disgusting behaviour towards an elected Member of Parliament.


But remember you're on the same side as these guys SWC. If you 'win' so do they.


----------



## noushka05

Lurcherlad said:


> We are still part of NATO.
> 
> More scaremongering.


Russia has interfered in our democracy LL & Trump has been echoing Putins attacks on NATO. https://www.weeklystandard.com/rich...ans-out-the-americans-in-and-the-germans-down

Never before have we needed to more united with our neighbours & we're isolating ourselves.

...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am not stooping to your level @noushka05 I just wanted to say how dare you.

I saw your comment when I wasn't signed in as you are on ignore.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Funny how Remainers tell you to believe the experts opinion yet dismiss any experts opinion if they disgree with it.
> ( I dont consider myself an expert for lip reading but the majority of expert lip reader agreed that Corbyn did say Stupid woman . )


Er ...


Arnie83 said:


> I must say I've looked closely quite a few times, and it still looks like 'stupid woman' to me, though there are probably more important things going on.


Quite apart from just me, I don't think there would be much correlation between Remainers and Corbyn support, since he has been a Leaver for years.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Even if he did the media won't let it rest.
> 
> Remember when Gordon Brown called a bigoted woman a bigoted woman off camera? Cost him the 2010 election that did...


Can't help thinking the 2008 crash , which the Tories managed to lay at Labour's door, had a bit more influence. (And no-one much liked Brown anyway!)


----------



## Arnie83

Lurcherlad said:


> We are still part of NATO.
> 
> More scaremongering.


I think it's a little exaggerated, but it's not something that should be dismissed completely, especially with the standard 'scaremongering' response.

Brexit weakens Europe in terms of cooperation and therefore security; I don't think anyone would argue with that. It has stoked the passions of populist movements, (the cause of which lie more at the EU's own door, of course), to the extent that a further disintegration of the EU is less unlikely than it was. Putin and Trump would both like that a lot, although only the latter has said so.

Trump's regard for the traditional post-WWII alliances is very low indeed - you not only have to listen to him, but read Mattis's resignation letter from yesterday - and should he manage to win again in 2020 we have 6 more years at least where he is a loose cannon on whom no Western nation can trust. He has already called NATO obsolete, and we can't discount the possibility of the US leaving it completely while he is in charge, though it's more likely that he'll strangle its funding unless he gets unspecified changes.

Putin would also rub his hands at that. He has pretty much got away scot free with the annexation of Crimea, and he isn't finished in Ukraine. Weaken NATO, loosen EU ties and maybe even dislodge more countries from it, and what would he feel emboldened to do next? I'm not worried for the UK, but anyone who isn't at least concerned really isn't paying attention.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏: _ I feel for the guy. If you pay for something, you expect to get what you paid for._

*Putin tells May to 'fulfil will of people' on Brexit*

https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...-will-of-the-people?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not stooping to your level @noushka05 I just wanted to say how dare you.
> *I saw your comment when I wasn't signed in as you are on ignore.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> )


:Hilarious

(how dare I what? Challenge your extreme confirmation bias?)


----------



## noushka05

It gets murkier & murkier. More tory extremists with ties to the Kochs.

*Clive Lewis*: _Liz Truss met with 'dark money' think tanks during taxpayer funded trip to Washington DC - ⁦@UE⁩>As I'm quoted below, this is what Tory Brexit is all about:

Deregulation, enhanced neoliberalism and 'Taking back' yet more control for the 1%
_

*Liz Truss met with 'dark money' think tanks during taxpayer funded trip to Washington DC*
The libertarian groups have close ties to the Koch brothers and are key backers of the Trump administration's drive to slash environmental regulations

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/12/19/liz-truss-dark-money-think-tanks-koch-brexit/


----------



## noushka05

(via James Melville)

Jeremy Corbyn's alleged "stupid woman" comment is receiving more scrutiny on #Newsnight than Theresa May's appalling approach to Brexit. 
The balance and perspective of our political discourse, and the way in which our media interpret it is deeply unsettling right now.

............................................................................
Brexit will make us poorer. 
Brexit will cut opportunities. 
Brexit will divide us. 
Brexit will weaken us.

Brexit is embarrassing. 
Brexit is humiliating. 
Brexit is heartbreaking. 
Brexit is not progress

............................................


----------



## Arnie83

Latest YouGov poll, which of course can be ignored if you like.

*1. Staying in the EU now holds a commanding lead over the government's deal*
Views of voters match those of MPs in rejecting Theresa May's deal by almost two to one. And Conservative voters, like Conservative MPs, are divided, with half of them backing her deal and one in three opposed.

For most of this year, polls have shown remain ahead of leave, typically by four to six points. But in a referendum between staying in the EU and leaving on the terms that the government has negotiated, *staying enjoys an 18-point lead: 59-41%.
*
Of the more than 17 million who voted leave in 2016, just 10 million people say they would vote for the government's deal - 2 million would vote to stay, while 3 million are not sure or would not vote. In contrast, of the 16 million who voted remain in 2016, 13.5 million would still vote to stay in the EU. Only 1.4 million would vote for May's deal, and 1 million are not sure or would not vote.

*2. Millions of 2016's leave voters have lost faith in Brexit's ability to make life better*
Few erstwhile leave voters now think Brexit will make life better. Three months ago, 43% of leave voters thought Brexit would make the economy stronger. Just 12% feared it would make the economy weaker. Today, only 24% of leave voters say "stronger", while slightly more, 26%, say "weaker". *That's a huge, 33-point drop for "stronger"* in the net difference between the two views since the beginning of September.

"All the signs are pointing to the public losing faith in Brexit fast. It's clear we need a people's vote."​
With an 18 point lead, it's difficult to claim with any certainty that what May is pursuing represents the "Will of the People".


----------



## stockwellcat.

In the latest poll B.O.B.'s now out rank remainers and leavers as they are simply Board Of Brexit. There are B.O.B.'s in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Germany, France, Netherlands, Brussels and everywhere else across Europe.

Spare a thought amongst all your moaning this Christmas for those that are simply Board of Brexit and just want to get on with life.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not stooping to your level @noushka05 I just wanted to say how dare you.
> 
> I saw your comment when I wasn't signed in as you are on ignore.


 I leave mine logged in so I don't see any ignored posts.


----------



## kimthecat

McKenzie said:


> Just jumping in here a bit off topic...
> 
> I'm a kiwi, I lived in the uk for 2 years (about 7 years ago on youth mobility)and would love to return permanently.
> 
> I've read about the new immigration plans which looks good for me, however am I right in thinking skilled migrants aren't allowed to settle permanently? So how would one become a citizen then?


This government link explains it. 
https://www.gov.uk/british-citizenship/check-if-you-can-apply

Would you still be allowed to keep your NZ passport?

NZ is so beautiful . I watch 800 words and the Brokenwood mysteries for the scenery plus they're enjoyable programmes.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> This government link explains it.
> https://www.gov.uk/british-citizenship/check-if-you-can-apply
> 
> Would you still be allowed to keep your NZ passport?
> 
> NZ is so beautiful . I watch 800 words and the Brokenwood mysteries for the scenery plus they're enjoyable progr'ammes.


@McKenzie - you might also like to read this ....

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/1...eed:+JohnRedwoodsDiary+(John+Redwood's+Diary)


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/21/managed-migration/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoodsDiary+(John+Redwood's+Diary)


"The intention is to treat the rest of the world fairly and equally, with no special treatment for EU citizens" is a not very subtle attempt to suggest that our membership of the Single Market has somehow been unfair to those countries who have not been members. It's also a bit contradictory - we joined the Single Market as a way of increasing our own wealth. If Redwood thinks that is somehow unfair, it's odd that he only wants to admit migrants who will materially benefit the country.

It makes for slightly uncomfortable reading for me. I'd like to see some mention of those who are poor and want to come here for a better life. While mass immigration of those less fortunate than ourselves is neither a sensible not feasible option, it would be nice if their existence was acknowledged, and even nicer if we had an immigration policy that actually helped some of them by welcoming them into our "new global UK" as Redwood describes it. A UK that "is outward looking and engaged with the wider world".


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> God knows what kind of paper you read then!


I read as many as I can (it being part of my job). And I said ''papers'' (plural).


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Cost him the 2010 election that did.


You may well have a point. The fact that Brown was totally devoid of personality or charisma also didn't help his chances.


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 383086


Perhaps someone should inform Femi (whoever he is) that not all of us are so stupid that we believe anything either Putin or Trump say.

Would you believe it, not all of us were born under a gooseberry bush or on Pancake Day?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 383086


I am sure Putin has plans for a fantastic post EU deal for Britain and will move lots of capital there, controlled by his people.

I think British people just have no idea what it is if people like Putin or Trump get a foothold in this country and enough influence due to new fantastic deals negotiated by our so skillful politicians.

You will be free???

By leaving EU?

It will be "from frying pan straight to the fire".

What is Tusk or Juncker in comparison to Putin and his henchmen???

I think some Leave voters are just being obstinate.
They simply don't want to admit that Brexit will put Britain in much worse position than being in far from perfect, troubled EU.

That "freedom" is illusion and "good old times before 1973" is nostalgia.

World changes, overpopulation, pollution, division and poverty.

Brexit will not shield us from the rest of the world and those problems.

United Europe can tackle those better than divided.

Brexit is dangerous, ruinous and selfish.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps someone should inform Femi (whoever he is) that not all of us are so stupid that we believe anything either Putin or Trump say.
> 
> Would you believe it, not all of us were born under a gooseberry bush or on Pancake Day?


But Brexit plays right to their hands?

Or shall we believe our so smart politicians will outsmart Putin and Trump?

Pancake Day all around....


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat. Liz Truss said in parliament that barking dogs deter drones :Hilarious

Perhaps shes muddled squirrels with drones. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-another-gaffe-barking-dogs-scare-drug-drones


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps someone should inform Femi (whoever he is) that not all of us are so stupid that we believe anything either Putin or Trump say.


Are you saying that Trump and Putin *don't* want us to leave the EU?


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> What is Tusk or Juncker in comparison to Putin and his henchmen???


"Temporary" springs to mind!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Are you saying that Trump and Putin *don't* want us to leave the EU?


You've lost me!

That's a bit of a quantum leap you've made.

All I said was that I don't believe anything they say. FULL STOP!


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting .....

This is what RT says that Putin said which is somewhat different to the English version.

A mis-translation maybe?

interpretation.https://deutsch.rt.com/kurzclips/81417-putin-warnt-vor-demokratie-verfall/


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## kimthecat

A bit OT .

Boris Johnson cleared of breaking Tory rules over burka comments 
Boris Johnson has been cleared of breaking the Tories' code of conduct with comments he made about women wearing burkas.

He had written that they looked liked "letter boxes" or "bank robbers" in a Telegraph column in which he argued against a ban on full-face veils.

It prompted dozens of complaints but it is understood an independent panel said he had been "respectful and tolerant".

Tory chairman Brandon Lewis and Theresa May had called on him to apologise.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46641106


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> A bit OT .
> 
> Boris Johnson cleared of breaking Tory rules over burka comments
> Boris Johnson has been cleared of breaking the Tories' code of conduct with comments he made about women wearing burkas.
> 
> He had written that they looked liked "letter boxes" or "bank robbers" in a Telegraph column in which he argued against a ban on full-face veils.
> 
> It prompted dozens of complaints but it is understood an independent panel said he had been "respectful and tolerant".
> 
> Tory chairman Brandon Lewis and Theresa May had called on him to apologise.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46641106


I can with all respect and my great tolerance for stupid men that he is a price ****.:Banghead

Poised to be our No Deal PM. 
No Deal - I say to that.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I can with all respect and my great tolerance for *stupid men* that he is a price ****.:Banghead
> 
> Poised to be our No Deal PM.
> No Deal - I say to that.


I'm sorry,but you're not allowed to use that phrase any more.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I can with all respect and my great tolerance for stupid men that he is a price ****.:Banghead
> 
> Poised to be our No Deal PM.
> No Deal - I say to that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


>


Can't see the attached, don't torment me MM!


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Can't see the attached, don't torment me MM!


Now would I ever do that????


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> He had written that they looked liked "letter boxes" or "bank robbers" in a Telegraph column in which he argued against a ban on full-face veils.


For the only time in my life I agree with his remakes, You have know idea who is under the veil and that unnerves me.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> For the only time in my life I agree with his remakes, You have know idea who is under the veil and that unnerves me.


I suspect that his reason for writing it was not because he particularly believed it, but because he thought it would be a popular thing to say.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> For the only time in my life I agree with his remakes, You have know idea who is under the veil and that unnerves me.


Ok I wont comment as this was discussed in a thread at the time.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that his reason for writing it was not because he particularly believed it, but because he thought it would be a popular thing to say.


I think he is an ass.


----------



## Snoringbear

Lol


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> A bit OT .
> 
> Boris Johnson cleared of breaking Tory rules over burka comments
> Boris Johnson has been cleared of breaking the Tories' code of conduct with comments he made about women wearing burkas.
> 
> He had written that they looked liked "letter boxes" or "bank robbers" in a Telegraph column in which he argued against a ban on full-face veils.
> 
> It prompted dozens of complaints but it is understood an independent panel said he had been "respectful and tolerant".
> 
> Tory chairman Brandon Lewis and Theresa May had called on him to apologise.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46641106


If the idiot was against banning them why on earth did he come out with such a stupid statement? He must think he's a 1970s comedian or something.



Happy Paws said:


> For the only time in my life I agree with his remakes, You have know idea who is under the veil and that unnerves me.


Which is why it's banned in many countries. I don't disagree with that.

Johnson on the other hand doesn't agree on a ban so his comments were completely inappropriate.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> I am sure Putin has plans for a fantastic post EU deal for Britain and will move lots of capital there, controlled by his people.


Isn't that already happening?


----------



## kimthecat

Just watching the Muppets film. They would do a better job than our MPs and Miss PIggy should be PM !


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Ok I wont comment as this was discussed in a thread at the time.


Yep . . . agree with you. One of the mods had a go at me for suggesting that there could be a bloke with a Kalashnikov under the ''offending garment''.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Yep . . . agree with you. One of the mods had a go at me *for suggesting that there could be a bloke with a Kalashnikov under the ''offending garment''.*


The thing is you are right, you just don't who or what they have under those things.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> The thing is you are right, you just don't who or what they have under those things.


Other countries have banned them, even some predominantly muslim countries.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Other countries have banned them, even some predominantly muslim countries.


https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/wo...l-body-islamic-veil-violates-human-rights-un/


----------



## Arnie83

This is interesting.

It suggests that May's pursuance of her Deal is a real threat to the 'precious Union' she keeps banging on about, and that a No Deal Brexit would see a significant majority favouring Irish unification. I wonder what her reaction is, if she has seen the polling figures, since the best way to protect our 'precious union' - in NI as well as Scotland - is to Remain!


----------



## kimthecat

If only ! 

  *PC Dave Wise*‏ @*CopThatCooks* Dec 20

Pro-tip: Don't hold your hands behind your back when you're taking a photo with a group of coppers


----------



## stockwellcat.

What next?

I read tonight remainers are rejecting democracy in response to Corbyn saying he is going to pursue Brexit if Labour wins an election.  What are remainers going to do other throw Parliament?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...cting-democracy-elitist-attempts-subvert/amp/

Sounds to me remainers are the ones getting nasty. They try subverting the referendum result by wanting another referendum, then they try and get foreign powers to reject brexit (in the EU) and now they want to reject democracy.


----------



## Elles

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/first-brexit-referendum-just-wait-next-one/

Interesting thoughts on a second referendum.

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/first-look-trailer-brexit-drama-starring-benedict-cumberbatch

Plus info and trailer introducing a brexit drama starring Benedict Cumberbatch which will be on tv 7th January.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> What next?
> 
> I read tonight remainers are rejecting democracy in response to Corbyn saying he is going to pursue Brexit if Labour wins an election.  What are remainers going to do other throw Parliament?
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...cting-democracy-elitist-attempts-subvert/amp/
> 
> Sounds to me remainers are the ones getting nasty. They try subverting the referendum result by wanting another referendum, then they try and get foreign powers to reject brexit (in the EU) and now they want to reject democracy.


Reject democracy by asking for a democratic referendum? When Leave have a chance to present their cunning plan?
By now they should have one if they had none whatsoever in the first place be. Which allows you to vote for Leave again because you believe in ERG ?
Nasty indeed.

How dare they ask what will happen after we Leave?

Or think about NI , Scotland, Gibraltar as if they ever mattered.

Maybe then England ( London and Oxford exempted) could Leave EU and UK?

Just joking of course.


----------



## Elles

Did you look at my links @cheekyscrip ? People wanting a second referendum should be quite worried and not at all sure that they'll get a remain vote.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Did you look at my links @cheekyscrip ? People wanting a second referendum should be quite worried and not at all sure that they'll get a remain vote.


But more Brexiters are terrified of a PV though. I wonder why? Perhaps Theresa May will cancel the 2022 GE as, "The people spoke" in 2017. I wouldn't put it past her.

Many voted Leave in 2016 in good faith, believing it was the right thing to do with promises of more money for the NHS etc.

But as with Remainers opinions over Brexit differ immensely. Some I know are horrified at how things have gone and the prospect of a no deal. They understood a good deal would be guaranteed as they held all the cards etc.

For some here, I won't mention names, to believe all leave voters voted for the same thing is complete nonsense as it would be for me to suggest all remainers back schengen and adopting the Euro.

There was no talk of job losses nor stockpiling in 2016. Such "Scaremongering" comes from the Brexit supporting government itself more to frighten people into succumbing to TM's deal I hasten to add.

The risk of leave winning again is a risk that has to be accepted. But I'd rather that with risks of stockpiling etc. known than a multitude of bare faced lies people were fed in 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

Sad to learn this. One of the few decent human beings in parliament in the past.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46662546


----------



## stockwellcat.

Remain voters are talking about rejecting democracy now because their dream is crashing down. Corbyn told them yeaterday that if there was a GE and he won the UK would still leave the EU. No second referendum. Nothing effectively changes.

*Hard-line Remainers reject democracy itself in elitist attempt to subvert Brexit*

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...cting-democracy-elitist-attempts-subvert/amp/


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Reject democracy by asking for a democratic referendum? When Leave have a chance to present their cunning plan?
> By now they should have one if they had none whatsoever in the first place be. Which allows you to vote for Leave again because you believe in ERG ?
> Nasty indeed.
> 
> How dare they ask what will happen after we Leave?
> 
> Or think about NI , Scotland, Gibraltar as if they ever mattered.
> 
> Maybe then England ( London and Oxford exempted) could Leave EU and UK?
> 
> Just joking of course.


Corbyn wants the UK to leave the EU as well he said so himself yesterday. So who is the remainers knight in shining armour now then? None of the large parties in Parliament represent remain at all.

*Brexit: Remainers criticise Corbyn's pledge to pursue leaving the EU*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46658335


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/first-brexit-referendum-just-wait-next-one/
> 
> Interesting thoughts on a second referendum.
> 
> https://www.channel4.com/press/news/first-look-trailer-brexit-drama-starring-benedict-cumberbatch
> 
> Plus info and trailer introducing a brexit drama starring Benedict Cumberbatch which will be on tv 7th January.


The approach from the Leave side of the argument is a very easy one to predict; they'll play it as the establishment trying to bully the public into voting differently from 2016. "What do they take you for? The British have never been the wimps these people take us for; we should tell them in even greater numbers that we want to be completely independent of the EU. Especially so when you look at how the Brussels Bullies have treated us for the last two years!" etc etc.

Where it might fail is that the Establishment, i.e. the Government, will be recommending that people vote to Leave with May's Deal, so suggesting that the public are being bullied by the elite to vote Remain doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, especially when there are few more elite than Rees-Mogg, Boris, IDS, Gove, Fox, Raab and May herself. Also, the promises made before June 2016 have been shown to be false. Plus, of course, the simple demographics.

I think it will be close (if it happens) because the tribal instincts that were played on in the original vote have now taken a firm hold on the Brexit camps themselves, and especially, I think, on the Leave side. It's Us v Them, and such positions are rarely influenced by facts and more nuanced considerations. As the piece itself says, 'Tell them again'. Note the "them".


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's really getting on my nerves, she keeps going back for more reassurances. She had over two years to make a plan and all the tories have been doing in this time is arguing among themselves, The EU having been asking for years what we want and she has never really sat down and told them. It's not their problem to sort out, we want to leave so it's up to her to have sorted it out, now she running like a headless chicken and making the UK look foolish.


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...oor-no-deal-brexit-may-now-least-painful/amp/


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 383523
> 
> View attachment 383524
> 
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...oor-no-deal-brexit-may-now-least-painful/amp/


Funny how Remain and EU are responsible for No Deal...
ERG who pushed Cameron, got in cahoots with Putin and Trump are obviously not who orchestrated all that mess to their own gain?

Some of my friends who are not British ask me why would Brits even listen to the likes of JMG or BoJo? It is so transparent whom all that will benefit and definitely not the common people.

Why would working class Joe Blogg support those look at him as he was a worm?
How people can buy kind of " foreigners not the Tories government " are to be blamed for austerity.

I think I should show those friends your posts.

When No Deal is a misery you will blame EU for custom tariffs and frontier delays obviously.

If new deals are rubbish you will have the whole of the world and Remain to blame.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny how Remain and EU are responsible for No Deal...
> ERG who pushed Cameron, got in cahoots with Putin and Trump are obviously not who orchestrated all that mess to their own gain?
> 
> Some of my friends who are not British ask me why would Brits even listen to the likes of JMG or BoJo? It is so transparent whom all that will benefit and definitely not the common people.
> 
> Why would working class Joe Blogg support those look at him as he was a worm?
> How people can buy kind of " foreigners not the Tories government " are to be blamed for austerity.
> 
> I think I should show those friends your posts.
> 
> When No Deal is a misery you will blame EU for custom tariffs and frontier delays obviously.
> 
> If new deals are rubbish you will have the whole of the world and Remain to blame.


Gina Miller herself also admitted the only way out of this will be no deal a few weeks ago.

Gina Miller forced upon Parliament the vote that triggered article 50 by taking the Government on and taking them to court. Then remainers are now saying they are turning their backs on democracy. Funny isn't it when remainers don't get there way even though it was a remainer that:

1) Gave the UK a referendum in the first place (Cameron)
2) A remainer that has tried to get a deal with the EU (May)
3) A remainer who took the Government to court (Miller) and made No Deal a real option
4) Remainers that are making alot of noise even though it was remainers throughout the whole process that delivered everything.

It was remainers who got the UK here at this point in history and making no deal a real outcome to this with only 12 Parliament weeks left to 29th March 2019.

So I don't understand why some remainers are whinging as point 1 to 4 above are true and remainers made everything possible in this whole EU Withdrawal Process including No Deal.


----------



## Vanessa131

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that his reason for writing it was not because he particularly believed it, but because he thought it would be a popular thing to say.


As is usual, he is appealing to people who lack intelligence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Vanessa131 said:


> As is usual, he is appealing to people who lack intelligence.


That is quite insulting.


----------



## kimthecat

Twitterati are having a go at Angela Leadsome. She is saying that Article 50 cannot be revoked and they say it can be. They are saying she is a liar.

https://news.sky.com/story/andrea-l...f-twitter&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just so we can get in the Christmas mood here is a classic.

A Brexit Christmas Carol








Click on this link to read the story:- https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-christmas-carol/amp/

I bid everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2019.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Just so we can get in the Christmas mood here is a classic.
> 
> A Brexit Christmas Carol
> View attachment 383550
> 
> Click on this link to read the story:- https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-christmas-carol/amp/
> 
> I bid everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2019.


Merry Christmas to you all!


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Just so we can get in the Christmas mood here is a classic.
> 
> A Brexit Christmas Carol
> View attachment 383550
> 
> Click on this link to read the story:- https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-christmas-carol/amp/
> 
> I bid everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2019.


Another one ..... Union Jack and the Beanstalk ..... enjoy!

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/1..._medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoods










Happy Christmas to everyone from Hungary


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Another one ..... Union Jack and the Beanstalk ..... enjoy!
> 
> http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/23/bow-group-christmas-fairytale/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+JohnRedwoods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Christmas to everyone from Hungary


And a Happy Christmas to you too.

I hope John Redwood has a chance to reflect on the notion of goodwill to all people, rather than grossly misrepresenting the facts about those who happen to live outside the borders of his tribe, not to mention peddling nonsense about the consequences of Brexit. "Everyone was better off." A fairy story indeed.


----------



## Arnie83

... and, of course, a Happy Christmas to all, whichever side of the Brexit fence you're on, or whether you're one of the few still sitting on it!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> And a Happy Christmas to you too.
> 
> I hope John Redwood has a chance to reflect on the notion of goodwill to all people, rather than grossly misrepresenting the facts about those who happen to live outside the borders of his tribe, not to mention peddling nonsense about the consequences of Brexit. "Everyone was better off." A fairy story indeed.


Such a pity you've lost your sense of humour especially as it's Christmas, if of course you ever had one.

And a Happy Christmas to you too!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/remainers-should-not-be-let-off-the-hook-on-brexit-1.3731493

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-anxiety-disorder-britain-middle-class/


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Such a pity you've lost your sense of humour especially as it's Christmas, if of course you ever had one.


I think that is a little uncalled for.


----------



## kimthecat

Ah come on , don't fight ! Kiss and make up


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I think that is a little uncalled for.


As were your scathing comments about what was after all only an amusing "take", albeit political, on a well known fairy tale.

And to cap it all what came over as a sarcastic "And a Happy Christmas to you too" which wasn't much appreciated by me



kimthecat said:


> Ah come on , don't fight ! Kiss and make up
> 
> View attachment 383613


I can only do that if Arnie is a single, multi billionaire on his last legs and willing to leave me his all his money and worldly assets. If not then forget it!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I can only do that if Arnie is a single, multi billionaire on his last legs and willing to leave me his all his money and worldly assets. If not then forget it!


Well you never know but if he is , then hands off he's mine


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> As were your scathing comments about what was after all only an amusing "take", albeit political, on a well known fairy tale.
> 
> And to cap it all what came over as a sarcastic "And a Happy Christmas to you too" which wasn't much appreciated by me


I was scathing about John Redwood, who is not a poster on here having a direct conversation with me.

The Happy Christmas was to wish you a happy Christmas in response to your own post.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I was scathing about John Redwood, who is not a poster on here having a direct conversation with me.
> 
> The Happy Christmas was to wish you a happy Christmas in response to your own post.


OK fair enough all is forgiven but you have to answer one question.

Are you ancient, stinking rich and single? ..... if not then @kimthecat can have you


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just heard on News 24 that if we leave with the EU without a deal, our Pet Passports going EU will be void the next day.


----------



## Elles

Does that mean the pets will have to be quarantined again, to come back home? Or just that we can’t take them with us?


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Just heard on News 24 that if we leave with the EU without a deal, our Pet Passports going EU will be void the next day.


Do they mean that the EU countries wont let them in ?
The pet passports are used for other countries , they wont be void.

ETA Just found this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...king-your-pet-abroad-if-theres-no-brexit-deal
If the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 with no deal, it would become a third country for the purposes of the EU Pet Travel Scheme.

Pets would continue to be able to travel from the UK to the EU, but the requirements for documents and health checks would differ depending on what category of third country the UK becomes on the day we leave the EU. Within the Pet Travel Scheme, there are three categorisations of 'third country', linked to a country's animal health status: 'listed: Part 1', 'listed: Part 2', or 'unlisted'.


----------



## Elles

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-after-brexit

Here's the government information on pet travel after brexit if there's no deal.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Does that mean the pets will have to be quarantined again, to come back home? Or just that we can't take them with us?


Not sure, just heard that the passports will be void going to into EU countries.


----------



## KittenKong

Something else people took for granted that's going to be taken away from them.

While some may relish going back to the days of 6 months of quarantine and the likes have they been any rabies alerts?

What's also sad if ex-pats who might be forced to return to the UK for whatever reason may not have the financial means to bring their pets over as well, so they'll be abandoned or forced into shelters .


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Something else people took for granted that's going to be taken away from them.
> 
> While some may relish going back to the days of 6 months of quarantine and the likes have they been any rabies alerts?
> 
> What's also sad if ex-pats who might be forced to return to the UK for whatever reason may not have the financial means to bring their pets over as well, so they'll be abandoned or forced into shelters .


I think they be OK bring them back here, it's just taking the back over there that's the problem.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Not sure, just heard that the passports will be void going to into EU countries.


The UK Pet Passports aren't going to be void. What will happen is your pet will have to have a blood test (which they scrapped a few years back) to ensure that the rabies vaccine is working and a health certificate.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Something else people took for granted that's going to be taken away from them.
> 
> While some may relish going back to the days of 6 months of quarantine and the likes have they been any rabies alerts?
> 
> What's also sad if ex-pats who might be forced to return to the UK for whatever reason may not have the financial means to bring their pets over as well, so they'll be abandoned or forced into shelters .


There isn't going to be a 6 month quarantine. I see you are scaremongering again. Your pet (cat/dog/feret) will have to have a rabies vaccine, (which your pet has to have now) blood test (the blood test was only scrapped a few years ago). The blood test is to ensure the rabbies vaccine is working) and then a 3 month wait before it can initially travel and then dogs have to have tick treatment both sides before it can travel from the UK. All your pets (cats,dogs and ferets) will have to have a medical certificate.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK Pet Passports aren't going to be void. What will happen is your pet will have to have a blood test (which they scrapped a few years back) to ensure that the rabbies vaccine is working and your dog will have to have tick treatment before travel in both directions. There will be a 3 month wait after the blood test has been done before your pet can travel.





stockwellcat. said:


> There isn't going to be a 6 month quarantine. I see you are scaremongering again. Your pet (cat/dog/feret) will have to have a rabbies vaccine, (which your pet has to have now) blood test (the blood test was only scrapped a few years ago). The blood test is to ensure the rabbies vaccine is working) and then a 3 month wait before it can initially travel and then dogs have to have tick treatment both sides before it can travel from or to the UK. All ypur pets (cats,dogs and ferets) will have to have it's vaccines up to date.


Are you an expert all of a sudden? I'd look at the Government's own analysis if I were you which clearly states the existing Pet passport could become void in the event of a no deal Brexit.

Then I guess you'll dismiss that as scaremongering as well.

I fail to understand why people support increased complexities when the existing scheme works well, but the Tories are good at fixing things that aren't broken as we saw with the Poll Tax and more recently with Universal Credit.

Now to add Brexit to the list.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Are you an expert all of a sudden?


You can be pretty nasty at the best of times. Try reading what it says on Defras website about what will change to pet travel if the UK leaves the EU with no deal for people taking their pets to and from other EU countries. The answers are there.


> I'd look at the Government's own analysis if I were you which clearly states the existing Pet passport could become void in the event of a no deal Brexit.


You come out with this rubbish and don't back it up by linking the source.

Merry Christmas to you to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Are you an expert all of a sudden? I'd look at the Government's own analysis if I were you which clearly states the existing Pet passport could become void in the event of a no deal Brexit.
> 
> Then I guess you'll dismiss that as scaremongering as well.
> 
> I fail to understand why people support increased complexities when the existing scheme works well, but the Tories are good at fixing things that aren't broken as we saw with the Poll Tax and more recently with Universal Credit.
> 
> Now to add Brexit to the list.



















https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...king-your-pet-abroad-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

No mention of pet passports being voided. It does mention a rabies vaccine being done which you have to do now anyway, blood test and a health certificate being issued before travel.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Something else people took for granted that's going to be taken away from them.
> 
> While some may relish going back to the days of 6 months of quarantine and the likes have they been any rabies alerts?
> 
> What's also sad if ex-pats who might be forced to return to the UK for whatever reason may not have the financial means to bring their pets over as well, so they'll be abandoned or forced into shelters .


You really are a little ray of sunshine!

Read this

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-after-brexit

You also appear to think that ex-pats will be returning in hordes to the UK which I doubt unless the exchange rate reaches rock bottom. No one I know plans to leave Hungary, in fact I know of at least two couples who will be moving over here next year

For ex-pats coming to the UK with their pets there will be no change, as @stockwellcat says it's only when leaving the UK with pets there will be changes to the rules

What makes you think that anyone having to return to the UK will abandon their pets or be "forced" to put them into shelters????

Years ago when I came back to the UK from SA, and couldn't afford to bring my 3 dogs with me, I found good homes for two of them and the third was adopted by another family member.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh for the good old days when only the wealthy could afford to travel abroad.

Blackpool and similar for everyone else.

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...-a-major-tourism-boom-in-lancashire-1-9508234


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Oh for the good old days when only the wealthy could afford to travel abroad.
> 
> Blackpool and similar for everyone else.
> 
> https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...-a-major-tourism-boom-in-lancashire-1-9508234
> 
> View attachment 385043


Morecambe and Lancaster has had a mini boom over the last 2 years. My dad now lives in Morecambe and has said it has got busier. Nice place Morecambe is. There is no need to put down/knock down the UK's coastal resorts as they rely on tourism to keep them going.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*The Official Information Guides Have Been Released This Morning by the Government:*









Full Guide: https://euexit.campaign.gov.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInvTFvZu93wIVZ7vtCh2juQLQEAAYASAAEgLiV_D_BwE

For Businesses: https://euexitbusiness.campaign.gov...MInvTFvZu93wIVZ7vtCh2juQLQEAAYASAAEgLiV_D_BwE

Information for Individuals in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/prepare-eu-exit

For UK Citizens Living in the EU: https://www.gov.uk/uk-nationals-living-eu

For EU Citizens Living in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/staying-uk-eu-citizen


----------



## kimthecat

I don't get why people want to keep taking their dogs on holiday if it means they have to travel in the hold of a plane or be left in a car or a kennel for hours unattended . I would never do that to my dogs unless it was absolutely necessary .

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-dies-hot-car-after-3911034


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I don't get why people want to keep taking their dogs on holiday if it means they have to travel in the hold of a plane or be left in a car or a kennel for hours unattended . I would never do that to my dogs unless it was absolutely necessary .
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-dies-hot-car-after-3911034


I've travelled with my two dogs and a cat in a crate from Dover to Calais on P&O ferries a couple of times and in the middle of summer too. It was actually hotter waiting for nearly an hour in the long queue prior to loading. If you allow for loading and unloading the car the journey takes just under 2 hours and I'd say the hold is more smelly than hot.

Whilst I'd be devastated had it been my dog, quite frankly had it been a Pug which is a brachy breed and liable to overheating, and knowing pets have to be left in the car I'd have gone by train instead!


----------



## Elles

It cost me £35 for a return flight to Gibraltar. The plane both ways was full. So at the moment it’s cheaper to fly abroad than go to a holiday destination in the U.K. for a lot of people.  However although some poorer people can’t afford to go on holiday at all, I doubt it’s about to return to only the very wealthy being able to afford to go abroad.

We don’t take Elles abroad so if we do go anywhere we go separately. I haven’t been abroad since we got her, until I went to see my new granddaughter and I went with my daughter not my husband. Her boyfriend stayed at home to look after her dogs too, they holiday in the U.K.

So same for me. It would have to be really important for me to get Elles vaccinated for rabies and taken abroad. I wouldn’t do it just for a holiday.

But yes, it does seem a lot of panic over nothing, once you look into it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> It cost me £35 for a return flight to Gibraltar. The plane both ways was full. So at the moment it's cheaper to fly abroad than go to a holiday destination in the U.K. for a lot of people.  However although some poorer people can't afford to go on holiday at all, I doubt it's about to return to only the very wealthy being able to afford to go abroad.
> 
> We don't take Elles abroad so if we do go anywhere we go separately. I haven't been abroad since we got her, until I went to see my new granddaughter and I went with my daughter not my husband. Her boyfriend stayed at home to look after her dogs too, they holiday in the U.K.
> 
> So same for me. It would have to be really important for me to get Elles vaccinated for rabies and taken abroad. I wouldn't do it just for a holiday.
> 
> But yes, it does seem a lot of panic over nothing, once you look into it.


It's the same flying to either Kosice (Slovakia) or to Budapest (Hungary) from either Bristol or Gatwick. Return tickets for my son and DIL who came over in May cost less than £100 for the two of them and only £35 each return for my two grandchildren who came over in October. The joke is that it costs considerably more to get to either airport by train than it does to fly here!

I like to take my dogs with me whenever possible, although it's very hard work when there's only one of you and one of your dogs is like Georgina The Grand Duchess, who has twice as much luggage than Gwylim and I have. If it's very hot, rather than take her I've left her with Gwylim's breeder whilst Gwylim and I have gone off on holiday together.

In Hungary, like the rest of the EU, dogs have to be vaccinated against Rabies every year. Mine are "done" every October. As a result of this law and the EU funded programme of mass vaccination of wildlife, Rabies has virtually been eradicated in the EU.

*Overview report Rabies Eradication in the EU - European Commission*

ec.europa.eu/food/audits-analysis/overview_reports/act_getPDF.cfm?PDF_ID=949


----------



## Elles

When I read “EU funded” I think how much better it would look as European funded, that we’re a part of, rather than the feel we get from ‘Eu funded’ as a term. Here the Eu is a separate entity that we give money to and it distributes as it sees fit and keeps a fair bit for itself. Instead of countries coming together for the greater good, which sounds a lot better and would be no need to exit.

Do you get what I mean?


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> In Hungary, like the rest of the EU, dogs have to be vaccinated against Rabies every year. Mine are "done" every October. As a result of this law and the EU funded programme of mass vaccination of wildlife, Rabies has virtually been eradicated in the EU.
> 
> *Overview report Rabies Eradication in the EU - European Commission*
> 
> ec.europa.eu/food/audits-analysis/overview_reports/act_getPDF.cfm?PDF_ID=949


Thats very good news , glad that the wild life can be vaccinated rather than killed like the badgers here (TB)
However we mustn't be complacent as we can never be sure rabies is totally eliminated , also the risk of variants in the future .


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> When I read "EU funded" I think how much better it would look as European funded, that we're a part of, rather than the feel we get from 'Eu funded' as a term. Here the Eu is a separate entity that we give money to and it distributes as it sees fit and keeps a fair bit for itself. Instead of countries coming together for the greater good, which sounds a lot better and would be no need to exit.


Give it time.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> When I read "EU funded" I think how much better it would look as European funded, that we're a part of, rather than the feel we get from 'Eu funded' as a term. Here the Eu is a separate entity that we give money to and it distributes as it sees fit and keeps a fair bit for itself. Instead of countries coming together for the greater good, which sounds a lot better and would be no need to exit.
> 
> Do you get what I mean?


I think I do! Am I correct in saying because the UK is physically separated from Continental Europe although you know you're in the EU you don't feel you are part of it??

In Hungary you can hardly forget that you're part of the EU. Every village has a sign underneath its name saying Europai Falu (European Village). The same is true of the towns and cities! We have a pig farm in our village which was funded with EU money and that has a large notice telling you so!


















This is what you find on all notification from the government - Magyarorszag Kormanya translates as Hungarian Government.


----------



## kimthecat

Japan too start commercial whale hunting despite it being banned. EU recently signed a trade deal . Will they srill do business with them . I bet they do.


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/02/09/brexit-referendum-human-rights/


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Japan too start commercial whale hunting despite it being banned. EU recently signed a trade deal . Will they srill do business with them . I bet they do.


They do business with Norway, so I think they probably will. I doubt that Brexit would change the UK's approach either. Beggars and choosers, and all that.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Spot on
> 
> http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/02/09/brexit-referendum-human-rights/
> 
> View attachment 385220
> View attachment 385221


I think a violation of 'human rights' is putting it a bit strong. There is certainly a good argument for it being undemocratic, with the voters being denied the facts on which they should have been voting.

But it's all a bit moot now. Hopefully the public will get a chance to show what their current view is now that they are in possession of more of those facts.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> They do business with Norway, so I think they probably will. I doubt that Brexit would change the UK's approach either. Beggars and choosers, and all that.


But the EU arent beggars or are they? . I doubt if Brexit will change the the UKs approach either but seeing how the EU is pushed as the end all and be all , its not so bloody marvellous .


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Japan are allowed to negotiate a deal Japan wants with the EU on Japan's terms, yet the UK is not allowed to have the deal it wants with the EU. That isn't fair is it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Japan too start commercial whale hunting despite it being banned. EU recently signed a trade deal . Will they srill do business with them . I bet they do.


The EU-Japan Agreement states this on Japanese Whaling:










http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...ic-partnership-agreement/agreement-explained/

The EU Japan Trade Deal is being fast tracked and will enter into force in February 2019:
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1954


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> But the EU arent beggars or are they? . I doubt if Brexit will change the the UKs approach either but seeing how the EU is pushed as the end all and be all , its not so bloody marvellous .


I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that the EU is the be all and end all. It would be a bit unfair to hold it to a higher standard than any other trading bloc or individual country, none of which will cease trading with Japan because of its attitude to whale hunting (which personally I abhor).


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...-price-of-theresa-may-s-immigration-obsession


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think a violation of 'human rights' is putting it a bit strong. There is certainly a good argument for it being undemocratic, with the voters being denied the facts on which they should have been voting.
> 
> But it's all a bit moot now. Hopefully the public will get a chance to show what their current view is now that they are in possession of more of those facts.


Certainly the loss of my FOM rights against my wishes violates my own human rights as far as I'm concerned.

It's made worse by certain people or a person on this forum who relish in the loss of that when it doesn't apply to them through dual citizenship entitlement.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...-price-of-theresa-may-s-immigration-obsession
> 
> View attachment 385235


I tried reading this on my phone and got this:-


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Certainly the loss of my FOM rights against my wishes violates my own human rights as far as I'm concerned.


It was what was voted for in the EU Referendum by the 17.4 million people that voted leave so the UK will be coming out of the FOM.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU-Japan Agreement states this on Japanese Whaling:
> 
> View attachment 385226
> 
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...ic-partnership-agreement/agreement-explained/
> 
> The EU Japan Trade Deal is being fast tracked and will enter into force in February 2019:
> http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1954


In other words, they will do sweet FA !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> In other words, they will do sweet FA !


Exactly.
Told you Japan gets a win win deal as the EU agreed to all of Japan's demands. So Japan gets what it wants and yet the EU won't let the UK get what it wants. Favouritism.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Vet clinic in Gib failed to take Garfield’s blood without sedation.

He was still very ill so took him to Spain to my favourite vet and I am worried that Brexit might make it hard to cross the frontier to get him the treatment he needs.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that the EU is the be all and end all. .





stockwellcat. said:


> I tried reading this on my phone and got this:-
> 
> View attachment 385236


That's odd ! have you tried on a lap top or a PC?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> That's odd ! have you tried on a lap top or a PC?




No serious commentator would claim that the EU is not in need of significant change. As is the UK for that matter; it's just a pity they chose the one they did in 2106, and without knowing what it would be!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> That's odd ! have you tried on a lap top or a PC?


It could be my phone doesn't like anti brexit news articles :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> It could be my phone doesn't like anti brexit news articles :Hilarious


:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Exactly.
> Told you Japan gets a win win deal as the EU agreed to all of Japan's demands. So Japan gets what it wants and yet the EU won't let the UK get what it wants. Favouritism.


No.... it's because the UK haven't been clear what they want, they have messed around for 2 1/2 years not making anything clear. Our government has been acting like a spoilt brat.

I'm sure that Japan didn't just get a deal without talks.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Certainly the loss of my FOM rights against my wishes violates my own human rights as far as I'm concerned.


That's a big topic! The movement of people between tribes was by invitation only (or by conquest) long before we invented human rights, and the instinct to say 'No' has never left us.

And that instinct is clearly what has driven a significant number of Leave votes. I'm sure that excludes most of the people on PF, of course


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> No.... it's because the UK haven't been clear what they want, they have messed around for 2 1/2 years not making anything clear. Our government has been acting like a spoilt brat.
> 
> I'm sure that Japan didn't just get a deal without talks.


The UK was very clear what it wanted on the 23rd June 2016. It is remainers that said define leave when leave means to leave, vacate, take ones self away from.

Japan got all of what it wanted including being able to still hunt whales.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Interesting article:



  






https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/a-no-deal-brexit-would-be-the-eus-fault/amp/


----------



## Snoringbear




----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history


BBC News from 20th July 2017????????

A year and a half out of date!


----------



## Snoringbear

youve completely missed the point. It’s an example of a leaver promising one thing and the reality much later becoming the complete opposite.


----------



## Elles

“Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history" because our rules and laws are already the same, the international trade secretary has said. 

Liam Fox is to set out his vision of the UK's trading relationship with the rest of the world after Brexit. 

"The only reason we wouldn't come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics,”

Where is he promising anything and where is he wrong?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


>


This has been done to death.
Remainers took snippets of part of conversations and statements made to benefit their own needs. The people in this video came forward and told remainers to listen to their full statements as the bit the remainers used was not what was meant. Dan Hannan was fuming remainers misconstrued what he said and changed it to benefit their means. Open Britain got slammed for doing this on TV publically. You are regurgitating arguements that were on old threads that were closed and we was told not to bring these arguements up again. The discussion of old threads and arguements is not allowed on pf.


----------



## Magyarmum

Is this what the UK pays the EU to do????

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/27/european-union-guides-members-no-more-mankind-manp/

Total waste of money!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Is this what the UK pays the EU to do????
> 
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/27/european-union-guides-members-no-more-mankind-manp/
> 
> Total waste of money!


This is a waste of UK taxpayers money....
Are you ready.....
Junker Drunk
































Just remember remainers you want the UK to keep paying into the pockets of these people who just have liquid lunches at the UK's expense.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> This has been done to death.
> Remainers took snippets of part of conversations and statements made to benefit their own needs. The people in this video came forward and told remainers to listen to their full statements as the bit the remainers used was not what was meant. Dan Hannan was fuming remainers misconstrued what he said and changed it to benefit their means. Open Britain got slammed for doing this on TV publically. You are regurgitating arguements that were on old threads that were closed and we was told not to bring these arguements up again. The discussion of old threads and arguements is not allowed on pf.


Incredible how leavers change their tune or completely misunderstand what they talk about.

https://infacts.org/hannan-wrong-on-single-market-free-movement-link/


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Is this what the UK pays the EU to do????
> 
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/27/european-union-guides-members-no-more-mankind-manp/
> 
> Total waste of money!


I just read the article 
Whatever next?
What happened to free speech?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Incredible how leavers change their tune or completely misunderstand what they talk about.
> 
> https://infacts.org/hannan-wrong-on-single-market-free-movement-link/


----------



## Snoringbear

What that video really demonstrates is the variety of leave options put forward by disparate leave groups prior to the referendum. This is fundamentally the issue with the leave vote, that it means different things to different voters. The problem is that there was no universal direction. When you vote for something like that, you just have to accept what it results in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> What that video really demonstrates is the variety of leave options put forward by disparate leave groups prior to the referendum. This is fundamentally the issue with the leave vote, that it means different things to different voters. The problem is that there was no universal direction. When you vote for something like that, you just have to accept what it results in.


I wish you would stop saying desparate leavers.
Many remainers have differing opinions as well and deparate to remain for many reasons. Many remainers have also decided to vote leave if there was ever another referendum.

Remainers have differing opinions on what remain means as well. Hence the amount of remain groups there is. There are more remain groups than leave groups. Alot of leave voters didn't take any notice of the leave groups or campaigns at all and had made their minds up long before the referendum was even thought of.

You should look at your own side first before picking on the opposite side of this debate.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> This is a waste of UK taxpayers money....
> Are you ready.....
> Junker Drunk
> View attachment 385411
> 
> View attachment 385412
> 
> View attachment 385413
> 
> View attachment 385414
> 
> Just remember remainers you want the UK to keep paying into the pockets of these people who just have liquid lunches at the UK's expense.


It's common knowledge he drinks to excess but the official explanation is that he suffers from sciatica and has difficulty in walking!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> It's common knowledge he drinks to excess but the official explanation is that he suffers from sciatica and has difficulty in walking!


And likes spending the money he can claim back on his lavish life style having liquid lunches at our expense.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This is a waste of UK taxpayers money....
> Are you ready.....
> Junker Drunk
> View attachment 385411
> 
> View attachment 385412
> 
> View attachment 385413
> 
> View attachment 385414
> 
> Just remember remainers you want the UK to keep paying into the pockets of these people who just have liquid lunches at the UK's expense.


How hypocritical. You don't have a problem with UK politicians feathering their own nests at the taxpayers expense nor the Queen going on about hardship in front of a gold piano. I guess being British allows for that. You clearly have a problem with people deemed not to be British enjoying a good time.

Junker has a drink? So what? Typical right wing media akin to the Milliband bacon sandwich front page.

I'd rather have them in charge than the 98% of rubbish in the UK parliament. Before you ask I would include Jeremy Corbyn within that 98%.

What I find most incredible is trusting our futures in the incompetent hands of Theresa May and co.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> How hypocritical. You don't have a problem with UK politicians feathering their own nests at the taxpayers expense nor the Queen going on about hardship in front of a gold piano. I guess being British allows for that. You clearly have a problem with people deemed not to be British enjoying a good time.
> 
> Junker has a drink? So what? Typical right wing media akin to the Milliband bacon sandwich front page.
> 
> I'd rather have them in charge than the 98% of rubbish in the UK parliament. Before you ask I would include Jeremy Corbyn within that 98%.


In both instances I'd like to point out that Juncker wasn't supposed to be - as you put it - "Enjoying himself". He was SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING or hadn't you noticed?

What nationality are you then because I always thought you were British, but from the above reply it seems you're not?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just over 92 days to go.
This has been the longest time I have ever been in suspense waiting for something to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> I wish you would stop saying desparate leavers.
> Many remainers have differing opinions as well and deparate to remain for many reasons. Many remainers have also decided to vote leave if there was ever another referendum.
> 
> Remainers have differing opinions on what remain means as well. Hence the amount of remain groups there is. There are more remain groups than leave groups. Alot of leave voters didn't take any notice of the leave groups or campaigns at all and had made their minds up long before the referendum was even thought of.
> 
> You should look at your own side first before picking on the opposite side of this debate.


I said "disparate", not "desperate". They mean different things.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> I said "disparate", not "desperate". They mean different things.


I was informed you might pick up on this btw.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Now who am I not ignoring on here? My ignore list seems to have grown on this thread.

Sorry this thread seems to be doing what other previous threads have done. Got repetitive and go around in circles as old arguements keep getting dragged up as some remainers have nothing new to say except drown their sorrows.

Just over 92 days to go. Tick tock.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> No idea of the source but a very good analysis I think.
> 
> I think more Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe than AH though, you know the type of tyrants who thrive on their unpopularity with the people they represent.
> View attachment 385418


You do talk a load of s*** and you certainly don't know your history. TM is nothing like Idi Amin, Mugabe or Adolf.

https://www.history.com/topics/africa/idi-amin

https://www.history.com/topics/africa/robert-mugabe

And if she is like Adolf then you'd better watch what you say, or you could end up somewhere like this!










Think on't


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No idea of the source but a very good analysis I think.
> 
> I think more Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe than AH though, you know the type of tyrants who thrive on their unpopularity with the people they represent.
> View attachment 385418


So I hate to think what you would call Corbyn if he was PM. He wants the UK to leave the EU as well BTW and instead of saving you money on your wages he wants to increase taxes by putting them up, something the Conservatives haven't done since they have been in power. The Conservatives have given people a threshold before they pay tax on their earnings.

I agree with what @Magyarmum said about your post I am replying to.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Japan got all of what it wanted including being able to still hunt whales.


We went into talks with no idea of what was going on and it hasn't changed.

Japan has nothing do with Breixt, they did their own deal and it must have been taken some time to get a deal I don't it happen over night.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> We went into talks with no idea of what was going on and it hasn't changed.
> 
> Japan has nothing do with Breixt, they did their own deal and it must have been taken some time to get a deal I don't it happen over night.


About 4 to 5 years (talks started sometime in 2013 according to the EU's website Europa and they reached a deal in principle in 2017). The EU wanted to close it before Brexit in desperation as they were scared the UK would seal a deal with Japan first. So the EU accepted all of Japan's demands. The Economic Partnership Agreement between Japan and the EU comes into force in February 2019 just a month or less before Brexit on 29th March 2019.

Backed up from this source of information: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

A win, win for Japan as they get to keep on Whaling.

Let's see if this will be as dramatic as the Canada CETA deal.


----------



## Elles

So when is the Hitler like Theresa May going to invade Poland? People who lived through that would be turning in their graves to see people comparing what they went through to Brexit. It makes me cringe in embarrassment and sadness every time I read someone comparing it. 

Please stop doing it. We are not being invaded, nor about to invade other countries, incarcerating people in ghettos or gassing them. We’re leaving the Eu, we live in a utopian dream in comparison. It’s is nothing like the Second World War and Theresa May is nothing like Hitler and his cohorts, or any other despot, nor is the U.K. comparable to Hitler’s Germany. On the contrary race hate and extremist groups are illegal.

It’s ridiculous for idiots to keep saying it to court controversy. Anything else they say loses any credibility imo.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So when is the Hitler like Theresa May going to invade Poland? People who lived through that would be turning in their graves to see people comparing what they went through to Brexit. It makes me cringe in embarrassment and sadness every time I read someone comparing it.
> 
> Please stop doing it. We are not being invaded, nor about to invade other countries, incarcerating people in ghettos or gassing them. We're leaving the Eu, we live in a utopian dream in comparison. It's is nothing like the Second World War and Theresa May is nothing like Hitler and his cohorts, or any other despot, nor is the U.K. comparable to Hitler's Germany. On the contrary race hate and extremist groups are illegal.
> 
> It's ridiculous for idiots to keep saying it to court controversy. Anything else they say loses any credibility imo.


It makes me cringe with embarrassment when people embrace Brexit actually with references to World War II and all that, so it's unfair of you to accuse me alone of bringing that up.

I never said May was like Hitler. I compared her more to a potential Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe actually. Did they invade other countries? I don't think they did but they didn't like any opponents from what I recall and didn't Amin depot immigrants?

No elected tyrants started out as tyrants, they became that way. How do you think they got elected initially? May doesn't even have a parliamentary majority!

Seeing any criticism of the Strong and Stable one is frowned upon by many on this forum I'll delete the article, even if it wasn't my words.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> So when is the Hitler like Theresa May going to invade Poland? People who lived through that would be turning in their graves to see people comparing what they went through to Brexit. It makes me cringe in embarrassment and sadness every time I read someone comparing it.
> 
> Please stop doing it. We are not being invaded, nor about to invade other countries, incarcerating people in ghettos or gassing them. We're leaving the Eu, we live in a utopian dream in comparison. It's is nothing like the Second World War and Theresa May is nothing like Hitler and his cohorts, or any other despot, nor is the U.K. comparable to Hitler's Germany. On the contrary race hate and extremist groups are illegal.
> 
> It's ridiculous for idiots to keep saying it to court controversy. Anything else they say loses any credibility imo.


To me when people do this it shows desperation and they have to resort to making the worst out of leaving the EU by making the worst comparision.

My grandad would be fuming with people making comparisons to May and Hitler and the UK to Nazi Germany if he was still alive. I feel KK does it because he never lived in this era (I admittedly didn't but would never make these comparisons). My grandad did live in this era, fought in Dunkirk against the Nazi (was one of the lucky ones to be rescued after being injured), Italy against Mussolini's army (was injured twice and stayed at his post) and North Africa against the Nazi (Rommel's Army and was injured twice) before returning to Italy to fight Mussolini's army where he stayed until the end of the war (being injured again 3 times and staying at his post) and saw things people wouldn't dream of seeing. A little of respect towards those that did live in this era would surfice instead of constantly having people refer to the UK as Nazi Germany which is ridiculous and comparing May to Hitler or a fascist dictator or even considering the UK could become a fascist state. These comments are not only saddening, but also disrespectful, upsetting and far fetched beyond belief and totally untrue.

I know you didn't make these comments @Elles but I have had to put someone on ignore because of these comments as they can be upsetting.

It shows how really low some remainers can go.

I personally think people making these comparisons really brings the thread down. There's no need for these comparisons to be made.


----------



## Elles

The article compared Theresa May to Hitler and Britain to Nazi Germany. Other despots covers your further comparison.

There’s no problem with criticising Theresa May or Brexit. If we lived under a tyrant like the ones you compare us to, there would be. You’d be arrested for it.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Deleted


Deleted ? Oh Ive missed all the fun .


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The article compared Theresa May to Hitler and Britain to Nazi Germany. Other despots covers your further comparison.
> 
> There's no problem with criticising Theresa May or Brexit. If we lived under a tyrant like the ones you compare us to, there would be. You'd be arrested for it.


Indeed. Who's to say people won't be arrested in, say, five years time? Who knows...

Already critics of Brexit have received threats of violence and worse on social media. TM can't be blamed for that of course, but by preaching xenophobia it fuels the more extremist element.

"God help our country", was a quote from the late Paddy Ashdown the morning after the referendum.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Elles

You think people will be arrested for criticising Theresa May or Brexit? 

Wow. You have some pretty extremist views I think.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You think people will be arrested for criticising Theresa May or Brexit?
> 
> Wow. You have some pretty extremist views I think.


On the contrary. My politics are generally left of centre Blairite. I have no time for extremism be it left or right.

It's ironic moderates, be it centre right or left, tend to be Remainers in the main yet get accused of being the extremists!

How often have Remainers accused Brexiters of being traitors or enemies of the people? Granted they've been called other things but nothing to suggest they're enemies of the state and traitors.

Now, to suggest people with a different point of view are traitors or enemies with some suggesting they should be hung for treason is what I would call extremist.

Let's face it. Brexit under a far right Tory government is a right wing power grab that could well see the erosion of civil liberties we've taken for granted over the next few years.

Then the left wing Brexiters see it as a road towards a Socialist utopia and similar re the erosion of civil liberties.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> You think people will be arrested for criticising Theresa May or Brexit?
> 
> Wow. You have some pretty extremist views I think.


If they did that, I'd be locked up and they'd throw away the key


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> It makes me cringe with embarrassment when people embrace Brexit actually with references to World War II and all that, so it's unfair of you to accuse me alone of bringing that up.
> *
> I never said May was like Hitler. I compared her more to a potential Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe actually.* Did they invade other countries? I don't think they did but they didn't like any opponents from what I recall and didn't Amin depot immigrants?
> 
> No elected tyrants started out as tyrants, they became that way. How do you think they got elected initially? May doesn't even have a parliamentary majority!
> 
> Seeing any criticism of the Strong and Stable one is frowned upon by many on this forum I'll delete the article, even if it wasn't my words.


At the risk of being banned I am going to call you a* LIAR !!!!!!!!!
*
You've conveniently deleted your reply which showed this ........










plus you wrote, AND I QUOTE FROM YOUR REPLY which wasn't deleted on my reply .....

*"I think more like Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe than AH though, you know the types of tyrants who thrive on their unpopularity with the people they oppress"*.

Your denial implies that I am lying which I am not!

I think I'm quite within my right to expect an apology from you.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> Just heard on News 24 that if we leave with the EU without a deal, our Pet Passports going EU will be void the next day.


Our vet sent out emails a few weeks back promising to keep us updated and, as yet, has not followed up. So ''watch this space'' as they say.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> At the risk of being banned I am going to call you a* LIAR !!!!!!!!!
> *
> You've conveniently deleted your reply which showed this ........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plus you wrote, AND I QUOTE FROM YOUR REPLY which wasn't deleted on my reply .....
> 
> *"I think more like Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe than AH though, you know the types of tyrants who thrive on their unpopularity with the people they oppress"*.
> 
> Your denial implies that I am lying which I am not!
> 
> I think I'm quite in my right to expect an apology from you.


There's pleanty more examples where this person has compared May to Hitler and the UK to Nazi Germany and saying he believes the UK will become a fascist state in this thread and previously closed ones. I almost screen shot them all last night to put on here but feared being banned to so didn't. He is now in denial he said these things and is blaming leave voters when it is him that has been posting these vile things. I had to stick him on ignore to stop seeing these types of posts.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> I almost screen shot them all last night to put on here


You have far too much time on your hands obviously


----------



## Arnie83

*Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn urges Theresa May to cut short MPs' break for vote*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46697749

Not going to happen, unfortunately. It should, because there's no new changes to May's existing deal coming from the EU, but she's trying to run down the clock so that MPs are forced into voting for it.

Whether leaver or remainer, it is surely not a good look for those who defend democracy. Parliament should have as much time as it needs to debate and determine the way forwards, and not be restricted to a Hobson's choice by a Prime Minister who is surely close to abusing her power.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> You have far too much time on your hands obviously


Part of living in the countryside. Having time on my hands I never had before living in the city.


----------



## KittenKong

If this vile government couldn't get any worse. This is what I'd expect from the National Front.

After being called Queue jumpers the timing of this couldn't be worse.

No wonder I'm disgusted and ashamed to call myself "British". This has saddened me immensely.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ery-home-office-uk-settlement-video?CMP=fb_gu


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

We voted to leave the Eu. Eu citizens resident in the U.K. and with 'indefinite leave to remain' won't be charged anything and don't even have to apply for settled status if they don't want to, hence the Danish citizen is swearing over nothing. It seems there is no change for those 'lawfully resident' in the U.K. 'lawfully resident' appears to be an actual status, not just 'not illegal.'

For others they will have to apply, same as anywhere else.

Who is supposed to pay for it? Me?

Anyway, you should look up the rights we have now. For example, did you know we can't stay in France for longer than 3 months. A lot of people live in France 6 months of the year and 6 months in the U.K. what they are doing is illegal. The application to stay in France longer is 269 euros and needs renewing each year, unless you go resident. In which case your taxes, healthcare etc all come under France's jurisdiction, even if you spend the majority of the year in the U.K. other Eu countries have similar rules.

https://www.remaininfrance.org/not-yet-resident-or-only-partly-resident-in-france.html

Freedom of movement might not be as free as you think.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If I want to return to Holland and settle there I have to first make myself known to the Dutch Foreign Police they give me 3 months to look for and get work. Depending on the type of work I get that being temporary or permenant I would then be given a 1 year or 5 year permit to stay in Holland. During the first 3 months I have to get a residence permit, tax/social security number, a bank account and a job (in that order) before I can get a tenancy. This is how the system works in Holland. If I wish to get permenant residency after 5 years I have to do a Dutch Citizens test, renounce that I am British before I am entitled to reside permenantly in Holland. You are not allowed to claim Dutch social security for the 1st 12 to 18 months and are expected to fund yourself until you get a job. This process costs a few hundred Euros in Holland to have the Citizenship test and get a dutch Passport and nearly £300 in the UK to renounce my UK Citizenship. I have checked this out and this is still valid today according to the Dutch Foreign Polices Website. After the initial 3 months in Holand you have to have a criminal records background check done on you from the UK and you have to pay for this through the Dutch Foreign Police, provide proof you have been paying tax in Holland, proof you have a job, proof you have a tenancy and proof you are paying medical insurance before being granted a right to stay for 1 or 5 years.

The systems the UK are talking about introducing for EU migrants are already in operation in other European countries and work just fine. Above is an example which applies to all European citizens wishing to reside in Holland. Each European country has a similar setup about registering people wishing to stay in their countries.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> We voted to leave the Eu. Eu citizens resident in the U.K. and with 'indefinite leave to remain' won't be charged anything and don't even have to apply for settled status if they don't want to, hence the Danish citizen is swearing over nothing. It seems there is no change for those 'lawfully resident' in the U.K. 'lawfully resident' appears to be an actual status, not just 'not illegal.'
> 
> For others they will have to apply, same as anywhere else.
> 
> Who is supposed to pay for it? Me?
> 
> Anyway, you should look up the rights we have now. For example, did you know we can't stay in France for longer than 3 months. A lot of people live in France 6 months of the year and 6 months in the U.K. what they are doing is illegal. The application to stay in France longer is 269 euros and needs renewing each year, unless you go resident. In which case your taxes, healthcare etc all come under France's jurisdiction, even if you spend the majority of the year in the U.K. other Eu countries have similar rules.
> 
> https://www.remaininfrance.org/not-yet-resident-or-only-partly-resident-in-france.html
> 
> Freedom of movement might not be as free as you think.


Yes, I am aware of much of that. As far as I'm aware UK born living in other EU countries aren't having to re-apply for settled status in a similar manner due to a corrupt referendum many of them weren't entitled to vote in.

And I know it's not plain sailing to move to another country within the EU. I'm not stupid. While retiring within the EU was within our reach it's unlikely to be without winning the lottery in future.

And don't implicate me in this. I didn't vote to leave the EU so none of this is in my name.

Just over half of 72% who voted on promises of £350m for the NHS and because of conditioning from the media hardly represents the majority of the UK population.

It's a complete contradiction to suggest EU citizens won't be charged when they're being charged to apply for settled status.

Surely, any none UK EU passport holders who refuse to participate in the scheme will be declared illegal immigrants from 2300 hours on 29/03/19 regardless of how long they've lived in the UK, perfectly legally up to that point.

Haven't you forgotten Windrush?

I'm appalled anyone could support what this government are doing.

I better not say any more at this point.


----------



## Elles

If they already have indefinite leave to remain there is no fee. It even says so in the article you link.

“though will be free for those who already have a permanent residence card or indefinite leave to remain.”

We already have to apply for and pay for these kind of things if we want to live elsewhere in the Eu and for most places it costs a hell of lot more than free, or £65.

There is no real change. Anyone from an Eu country who wants to live in another Eu country has to pay money and jump through a number of hoops. We can’t just move there and setup shop without so much as a by your leave. So I’m sorry, but it’s a load of fuss about nothing, trying to wind people up about nasty leave voters, hoping people don’t know there are already rules and regulations in place and we can’t all just up sticks, like many of us who never have done so seem to think we can.


----------



## KittenKong

Farage's' Nazi Germany-like anti-immigrant poster updated.


----------



## Magyarmum

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1065353739, member: 1431226"*]Yes, I am aware of much of that. As far as I'm aware UK born living in other EU countries aren't having to re-apply for settled status in a similar manner due to a corrupt referendum many of them weren't entitled to vote in.*

And I know it's not plain sailing to move to another country within the EU. I'm not stupid. While retiring within the EU was within our reach it's unlikely to be without winning the lottery in future.

And don't implicate me in this. I didn't vote to leave the EU so none of this is in my name.

Just over half of 72% who voted on promises of £350m for the NHS and because of conditioning from the media hardly represents the majority of the UK population.

It's a complete contradiction to suggest EU citizens won't be charged when they're being charged to apply for settled status.

I'm appalled anyone could support what this government are doing.

I better not say any more at this point.[/QUOTE]

I think you'll find contrary to what you believe most British Ex-Pats living in EU countries will have to apply for settled status and pay for the privilege of doing so Unfortunately, unlike EU citizens living in the UK nothing definite has been decided for us.

https://www.gov.uk/uk-nationals-living-eu?
gclid=Cj0KCQiAsJfhBRCaARIsAO68ZM55IgHXxrguBp_NR9B7LbwceUDaBiihksuQ2l6JbLz7BMfUk_RH1f0aAj0jEALw_wcB

I actually had to have a little chuckle today when I realised I'm soon to become a non-Eu owner of two EU Passport holding dogs and one cat. I'm seriously thinking of asking my vet if he can organise a Hungarian Pet Passport for me as well!


----------



## Elles

It’s crazy that people are getting all excited and angry about something that makes it easy for an Eu citizen to settle in the U.K.  When I look up the cost and difficulties of moving to other Eu countries £65 seems a drop in the ocean and that’s even if you have to pay it at all. I was concerned about what would happen to Eu citizens already here, even wrote to my mp on behalf of the people I know. I’m no longer concerned. This looks fine to me.

If there’s a deal, Brits won’t have to worry either. If there’s no deal, let’s hope they can get the status sorted out quickly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> It's crazy that people are getting all excited and angry about something that makes it easy for an Eu citizen to settle in the U.K.  When I look up the cost and difficulties of moving to other Eu countries £65 seems a drop in the ocean and that's even if you have to pay it at all. I was concerned about what would happen to Eu citizens already here, even wrote to my mp on behalf of the people I know. I'm no longer concerned. This looks fine to me.
> 
> If there's a deal, Brits won't have to worry either. If there's no deal, let's hope they can get the status sorted out quickly.


They are also crying over losing FOM. There is nothing free about moving to another EU country. If I went back to Holland to settle I would need quite a bit of money behind me and then it would be taxed in Holland. £65 for an EU citizen to register for settled status over here is peanuts. In Holland you would need over £1,000 to follow the process through after living there first for 5 years and 3 months. Then there's the upheaval of moving there and that cost to do this as well.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> It's crazy that people are getting all excited and angry about something that makes it easy for an Eu citizen to settle in the U.K.  When I look up the cost and difficulties of moving to other Eu countries £65 seems a drop in the ocean and that's even if you have to pay it at all. I was concerned about what would happen to Eu citizens already here, even wrote to my mp on behalf of the people I know. I'm no longer concerned. This looks fine to me.
> 
> If there's a deal, Brits won't have to worry either. If there's no deal, let's hope they can get the status sorted out quickly.


@Elles: you are far too sensible for this thread!!


----------



## Dave S

Guys and Girls, seriously. I am trying to keep up with this thread as I am interested in Brexit but I only have a 15 inch screen on my laptop.
Is there any possibility that whenever you post an article you can edit/reduce the text size so I don't have to scroll for an excessive amount of time to get to the bottom - it really does make this thread long and uninteresting.
Another thing that concerns me is that some comments are getting a bit too "personal" for a general forum. Perhaps some should resort to private chats for their text battles.

There is no correct or incorrect answer to the situation this kingdom is in. It is entirely down to politics and how they handle it. It is a shame that our elected MP's show complete disregard for each other and ultimately us - the people who elected them by not all working together to secure the better future we were all promised. 
To compare any of them to the likes of Hitler or Amin etc is in itself totally disrespectful not only to the MP's but to all those who fought (and died) for our freedom. 

I do know that come the next election I will be voting with my fingers - two stuck up to Parliament - that's how much respect I have for them now - same as they have for us!

Rant over, dinner ready, have a good evening.


----------



## Elles

Kitten Kong has tried before, but couldn’t work out how to make their posts of articles smaller, or not bold. I’m reading this on an iPad, so have the same problem.


----------



## Dave S

Then save it as a .jpg picture and post it as a thumbnail so anyone who wants to can open it to full size?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Currently I have a very sick Garfield, our vets here after taking £££ were not helpful and now I have take him to Spain every single day for treatment and he might have to stay there in the clinic.
My honest worry is as his problems are ev what will happen after Brexit?
We spent hours every day but at least he has a chance.

Just wonder if it was your cat ?

Another problem are the dogs i the shelters our foundation takes care of.
Volunteers come from Gibraltar to walk them, adoptions to Gibraltar, events and it is registered here not in Spain. 

700 plus dogs on Spanish side.
Food, bedding etc donations come from Gibraltar mostly , recent floods destroyed everything


----------



## Elles

I donate to Prince Fluffy Kareem which is a horse charity working in Egypt, so I would guess that after Brexit people will still be able to donate for the dogs. I don’t know enough about it, but charities seem to be able to operate world wide. Aren’t there enough Spanish volunteers to walk the dogs, if it does become less easy for Gibraltar people? 

It’s bad if Spanish vets are better than British ones though and I’m sorry your cat isn’t well. 

What are they currently saying about no deal in Gibraltar? Over here it doesn’t seem that will be any more difficult to cross into Europe, we won’t need visas and they already check our passports. For yourself wouldn’t you personally be a special case like Stockwellcat with an Eu passport anyway? Will you have to apply for something to stay in Gibraltar, or do you already have it?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I donate to Prince Fluffy Kareem which is a horse charity working in Egypt, so I would guess that after Brexit people will still be able to donate for the dogs. I don't know enough about it, but charities seem to be able to operate world wide. Aren't there enough Spanish volunteers to walk the dogs, if it does become less easy for Gibraltar people?
> 
> It's bad if Spanish vets are better than British ones though and I'm sorry your cat isn't well.
> 
> What are they currently saying about no deal in Gibraltar? Over here it doesn't seem that will be any more difficult to cross into Europe, we won't need visas and they already check our passports. For yourself wouldn't you personally be a special case like Stockwellcat with an Eu passport anyway? Will you have to apply for something to stay in Gibraltar, or do you already have it?


As far as I understand it, as the Brexit situation stands now, after 2021, UK citizens wishing to visit Europe will have to obtain an ETIAS visa. This could change of course.

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens

I take my dogs and cat to a vet in the city some 50 miles from where I live, which is still in Hungary. If either of the dogs has a problem with their eyes (which has happened with Georgina) or needs them tested, then I have to take them to see the eye specialist at Kosice University which although it's only 26 miles up the road is in Slovakia. Our nearest airport and the one that does dirt cheap flights from the UK is also in Kosice.

Although, obviously unlike @cheekyscrip I don't go to Slovakia more than half a dozen times a year, it will nevertheless be a PITA if I have to have a visa just for the couple of hours it takes me to collect my family from the airport!

I suppose the only thing we can do is wait and see and keep fingers crossed.

And cheeky how is that poorly Garfield boy of yours? Hope it won't be long before he's feeling better.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> As far as I understand it, as the Brexit situation stands now, after 2021, UK citizens wishing to visit Europe will have to obtain an ETIAS visa. This could change of course.
> 
> https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens
> 
> I take my dogs and cat to a vet in the city some 50 miles from where I live, which is still in Hungary. If either of the dogs has a problem with their eyes (which has happened with Georgina) or needs them tested, then I have to take them to see the eye specialist at Kosice University which although it's only 26 miles up the road is in Slovakia. Our nearest airport and the one that does dirt cheap flights from the UK is also in Kosice.
> 
> Although, obviously unlike @cheekyscrip I don't go to Slovakia more than half a dozen times a year, it will nevertheless be a PITA if I have to have a visa just for the couple of hours it takes me to collect my family from the airport!
> 
> I suppose the only thing we can do is wait and see and keep fingers crossed.
> 
> And cheeky how is that poorly Garfield boy of yours? Hope it won't be long before he's feeling better.


Pm you.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Currently I have a very sick Garfield, our vets here after taking £££ were not helpful and now I have take him to Spain every single day for treatment and he might have to stay there in the clinic.
> My honest worry is as his problems are ev what will happen after Brexit?
> We spent hours every day but at least he has a chance.
> 
> Just wonder if it was your cat ?
> 
> Another problem are the dogs i the shelters our foundation takes care of.
> Volunteers come from Gibraltar to walk them, adoptions to Gibraltar, events and it is registered here not in Spain.
> 
> 700 plus dogs on Spanish side.
> Food, bedding etc donations come from Gibraltar mostly , recent floods destroyed everything


I give up Cheeky. Clearly most here don't give a damn.

I'm very sorry to hear about Garfield, hope he's on the road to recovery.

No doubt I'll get stick from most here, but as you say, imagine if it was their pet?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I give up Cheeky. Clearly most here don't give a damn.
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear about Garfield, hope he's on the road to recovery.
> 
> No doubt I'll get stick from most here, but as you say, imagine if it was their pet?


Thank you. On my way to the vet, poor baby, Saturdays always have big queue


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It's crazy that people are getting all excited and angry about something that makes it easy for an Eu citizen to settle in the U.K.  When I look up the cost and difficulties of moving to other Eu countries £65 seems a drop in the ocean and that's even if you have to pay it at all. I was concerned about what would happen to Eu citizens already here, even wrote to my mp on behalf of the people I know. I'm no longer concerned. This looks fine to me.
> 
> If there's a deal, Brits won't have to worry either. If there's no deal, let's hope they can get the status sorted out quickly.


The point is citizens from other EU countries, many who've lived and worked in the UK for decades are here perfectly legally. They would continue to live in the UK perfectly legally and vice versa if the UK wasn't leaving the EU.

You may not have a problem with that as it doesn't affect you personally. Reassurances from a Tory MP hardly inspires confidence.

So, none UK born people from other EU countries, remembering the UK itself is still a member of the EU, who had no say in the referendum, are being singled out and treated like "Illegal aliens" until proven otherwise after March 2019 or alternatively after the transition period.

They are to be charged a fee just to apply to remain with each individual case scrutinised for skills and earnings.

This will inevitably result in many deportations if anyone is considered not to fit the criteria, say a hotel worker for not being paid enough.

And, don't forget the gross incompetence from this government. How many from the Windrush generation who arrived in the UK as children being sacked from their jobs, refused NHS treatment and wrongly deported.

That's what I would call a vile, fascist hostile environment which will inevitably affect many EU workers after Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mill...ph6sKEuT6CtFmFvcxNC_N0MuKz5mqnsQ&guccounter=1


----------



## Arnie83

*UK to spend £108m on no-deal ferries*

The UK will spend more than £100m chartering extra ferries to ease "severe congestion" at Dover, in the case of a no-deal Brexit.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46704522

Can't we rule out the stupid No Deal scenario and spend the £100 million on the NHS instead? Perhaps we could make hospital car parks free for patients, visitors and staff.


----------



## KittenKong

And people think the EU is corrupt.
I'm surprised Arlene Foster wasn't given a damehood.

It was cash for questions in the '90s. Now it's honours for votes.

https://www-mirror-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-cronyism-row-leading-brexiters-13787821.amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-cronyism-row-leading-brexiters-13787821


----------



## KittenKong

Dave S said:


> Then save it as a .jpg picture and post it as a thumbnail so anyone who wants to can open it to full size?


Good idea, didn't think of that.


----------



## KittenKong

From the 48% FB page:

What do the older generation in England feel about Brexit?

John Smith, studied at England
Answered Dec 18

Brexit is the most stupid exercise in futility in my lifetime.
Any initial cause of people voting to leave are wholly due to the inactions and neglect of the Westminster Governments. So a bunch of charlatan elites plot to blame the EU with a total pack of lies for every thing that has ever gone wrong in UK. They convince the people they wholly despise to get riled up and vote to leave because they are so gullible as to believe both the Euro-phobic lies, and that they will be better off. UK has to face the future backlash once they realise they have been totally duped and the bridge has been burnt.
UK could control EU migration but chose not to. UK could manage migration better by putting extra funding, public housing and facilities into the areas most affected. Tories immediately cut that funding. Tories say “10s of thousands” to reduce migration - then issue 205,000 visas to no-EU migrants when EU migration drops to 65,000. A computer system to register in/out entry at ports and airports is promised in 2005. Still not even funded and illegal migration has grown to some 1.4M. “Control our borders” except our only land border in Ireland and practically all of our sea borders where we have 3 boats and volunteers but no customs officers in small ports and airfields.
UK passes 100% of UK laws.
UK controls 100% of UK money, the £UK, via the bank of England.
UK has its own democracy, free speech, Parliament, the Queen, education system, the military, the police and security services all wholly sovereign and independent. No one tells us what to do nor say - we are fully sovereign and free.
We already trade with every single country on the planet that wishes to buy our goods or services. We have been trading with the world since before the Romans invaded in 55 BC - we had an Empire- we already know there is a big world out there.
To convince half the country that we are actually living in some virtual reality country that was under attack and directly under the jack boot of some mythical tyrant invader, called the EU, whose every breath was devoted to bringing down the UK is breathtaking in its chutzpah and mendacity.
Sadly my countrymen and women have to live with the consequences for decades.
I am really sad for my country.


----------



## KittenKong

Is this really something to be proud of?


----------



## Happy Paws2

round and round we go, in ever decreasing circles .......


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> And people think the EU is corrupt.
> I'm surprised Arlene Foster wasn't given a damehood.
> 
> It was cash for questions in the '90s. Now it's honours for votes.
> 
> https://www-mirror-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-cronyism-row-leading-brexiters-13787821.amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-cronyism-row-leading-brexiters-13787821
> 
> View attachment 385626


I think it's a bit obvious to be bribery to be honest. It does, though, seem unnecessarily provocative, especially in the case of Redwood, after he used his Telegraph column to advise people to move their money out of the UK before Brexit, and then claimed in his blog that everyone would be better off! Perhaps it was for services to humour and I just didn't get it.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Thank you. On my way to the vet, poor baby, Saturdays always have big queue


Sorry to read Garfield is unwell @cheekyscrip and I hope he makes a speedy recovery?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 385650




I can't help thinking that site might not have a wholly balanced readership!


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws said:


> round and round we go, in ever decreasing circles .......


*And all the time the tories are in, we will carry on going around in circles. They haven't got a clue. *


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *And all the time the tories are in, we will carry on going around in circles. They haven't got a clue. *


We'd be going around in bigger circles with Corbyn and his crew at the helm as they don't have a clue either.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> round and round we go, in ever decreasing circles .......


----------



## KittenKong

Gawd, she is deluded.

I knew The Queen backs Brexit, The Sun said so but God anyone???

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...dNZGbEbt9HMxczvVVGbAl2-QXGjy8ydWDEiCKjU5sxRVI


----------



## KittenKong

What's good for the goose, as the saying goes...

From Bristol for Europe:

"Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said the rights of the 300,000 British people living in Spain would be secured even in the case of a no deal Brexit as long as the same was offered to Spanish people in the United Kingdom.

The socialist PM said the government was working on measures to ensure Britons living would keep their rights even if Britain crashed out of the EU without a deal on 29 March.

Measures were, however, conditional on the roughly 100,000 Spaniards getting the same treatment in Britain, he said.

Talking in his traditional end of year press conference broadcast from the Palacio de la Moncloa on Friday, Mr Sanchez said: “I want to convey a message of calm for the Spaniards who live in the United Kingdom and also the British who reside in Spain.”

“We will preserve your rights whatever the scenario.” "


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/...-united-states.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/...-united-states.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
> 
> View attachment 385705


That's going to make worrying reading for those in the States who still consume the possible carcinogens.

But I'm sure our trade negotiators would not endanger the health of British citizens just to get a deal with the USA, and under Trump's direction I'm equally sure that the US will bend over backwards to make sure we get all we want, even if it does cost them money.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mill...ph6sKEuT6CtFmFvcxNC_N0MuKz5mqnsQ&guccounter=1
> View attachment 385619
> View attachment 385620


More scaremongering!

The British in Europe mentioned in the article has just over 4000 followers of whom 2000 live in Italy which can hardly be considered to be representative of the 1.3 million ex-pat Brits living in the EU!

As I've pointed out before the law regarding residence is different for each member state in the EU, (something that has been studiously ignored by certain people) and therefore it's only logical that the EU has to leave it to the individual country to enforce it's own rules.

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/12/uk-citizens-as-non-eu-citizens-in-eu.html

Ex-pats living in Hungary shouldn't be affected too much because to live here legally one has to have a residence permit. By contrast, in France as an EU member, a British ex-pat could just go and live there, but now ex-pats in order to live there legally will most likely need to apply for a "carte de sejour".

http://www.britishinfrance.com/


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> That's going to make worrying reading for those in the States who still consume the possible carcinogens.
> 
> But I'm sure our trade negotiators would not endanger the health of British citizens just to get a deal with the USA, and under Trump's direction I'm equally sure that the US will bend over backwards to make sure we get all we want, even if it does cost them money.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry to read Garfield is unwell @cheekyscrip and I hope he makes a speedy recovery?


Thank you. Full saga in Cat Health.


KittenKong said:


> What's good for the goose, as the saying goes...
> 
> From Bristol for Europe:
> 
> "Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said the rights of the 300,000 British people living in Spain would be secured even in the case of a no deal Brexit as long as the same was offered to Spanish people in the United Kingdom.
> 
> The socialist PM said the government was working on measures to ensure Britons living would keep their rights even if Britain crashed out of the EU without a deal on 29 March.
> 
> Measures were, however, conditional on the roughly 100,000 Spaniards getting the same treatment in Britain, he said.
> 
> Talking in his traditional end of year press conference broadcast from the Palacio de la Moncloa on Friday, Mr Sanchez said: "I want to convey a message of calm for the Spaniards who live in the United Kingdom and also the British who reside in Spain."
> 
> "We will preserve your rights whatever the scenario." "


He also demanded Gibraltar paying the same corporate taxes as Spain to basically finish our economy and and twisted May's arm during negotiations that Spain will block Brexit unless they get promised Gibraltar will fare no better than nearby town.

Today at vet talked to English girl who lives in Spain with her frenchie , cannot find affordable place in Gibraltar and if the frontier is not passable? Or if Spain gets the tax rise her job will go? She is mostly worried about her poor dog, chronic illness, we both are in the same boat. 
I trust Sanchez as much as I trust our leaders.


----------



## Arnie83

Interesting idea ...

MPs could block the government's ability to collect taxes to force Theresa May to allow a Final Say referendum.

Influential Tory rebel Dominic Grieve has backed *a plan to make a new public vote - rather than a no-deal Brexit - the default option if Ms May's deal is not approved by parliament* by exit day in March.

Under the proposal, set out in a report by campaign group Best for Britain, MPs would amend the Finance Bill when it returns to the Commons on 8 January, "making future taxation conditional on holding a referendum (with an option to remain)".​
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ment-remain-conservative-labour-a8701536.html


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting idea ...
> 
> MPs could block the government's ability to collect taxes to force Theresa May to allow a Final Say referendum.
> 
> Influential Tory rebel Dominic Grieve has backed *a plan to make a new public vote - rather than a no-deal Brexit - the default option if Ms May's deal is not approved by parliament* by exit day in March.
> 
> Under the proposal, set out in a report by campaign group Best for Britain, MPs would amend the Finance Bill when it returns to the Commons on 8 January, "making future taxation conditional on holding a referendum (with an option to remain)".​
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ment-remain-conservative-labour-a8701536.html


Interesting idea? All it is is 'blah, blah, stay in the Eu, blah, blah, blah, remain, blah, blah, threats, stay in.' A load of clever speak fake choice twaddle and threats by someone who wants to stay in the Eu.

You think it's right that MPs should progress their own agenda by interfering with taxes and holding the public to ransom? How well do we think our welfare state and nhs will hold up if the government can't collect our taxes? That's downright blackmail and a hundred times worse than anything any brexiteer ever said or did if I understand this right.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Interesting idea? All it is is 'blah, blah, stay in the Eu, blah, blah, blah, remain, blah, blah, threats, stay in.' A load of clever speak fake choice twaddle and threats by someone who wants to stay in the Eu.
> 
> You think it's right that MPs should progress their own agenda by interfering with taxes and holding the public to ransom? How well do we think our welfare state and nhs will hold up if the government can't collect our taxes? That's downright blackmail and a hundred times worse than anything any brexiteer ever said or did if I understand this right.


Exactly what I thought. Rather like Trump shutting down the government until he gets funding for his wall. To hell with with the poor s***s who've been temporarily been laid off with no salary!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting idea ...
> 
> MPs could block the government's ability to collect taxes to force Theresa May to allow a Final Say referendum.
> 
> Influential Tory rebel Dominic Grieve has backed *a plan to make a new public vote - rather than a no-deal Brexit - the default option if Ms May's deal is not approved by parliament* by exit day in March.
> 
> Under the proposal, set out in a report by campaign group Best for Britain, MPs would amend the Finance Bill when it returns to the Commons on 8 January, "making future taxation conditional on holding a referendum (with an option to remain)".​
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ment-remain-conservative-labour-a8701536.html


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> MPs could block the government's ability to collect taxes to force Theresa May to allow a Final Say referendum.​


So let me get this straight MP's will block the Governments ability to collect taxes. We won't have to pay tax then. Yipee. So who pays the MP's then? Sounds a daft statement.


> Influential Tory rebel Dominic Grieve has backed a plan to make a new public vote - rather than a no-deal Brexit - the default option if Ms May's deal is not approved by
> parliament by exit day in March.


It would be to late. We would have left.

Lot's of silly ideas then and none workable at all. Seems some are getting desperate.​


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Interesting idea? All it is is 'blah, blah, stay in the Eu, blah, blah, blah, remain, blah, blah, threats, stay in.' A load of clever speak fake choice twaddle and threats by someone who wants to stay in the Eu.
> 
> You think it's right that MPs should progress their own agenda by interfering with taxes and holding the public to ransom? How well do we think our welfare state and nhs will hold up if the government can't collect our taxes? That's downright blackmail and a hundred times worse than anything any brexiteer ever said or did if I understand this right.


Yes, I think it is interesting. May has tried and is trying to deny Parliament a say on Brexit by forcing them to choose between her deal and no deal. This is a way that those MPs who want to protect their constituents, by preventing a no deal scenario, can further that laudable aim. Do you not think that May's intention to further her deal by offering only a destructive alternative deserves to be thwarted?

And a People's Vote would not necessarily result in a change of the original decision to leave as you imply, unless the People themselves had changed their minds. In a democracy should we deny them the opportunity of doing so?


----------



## stockwellcat.

It is not May saying it is this deal or no deal it is the EU leaders that have repeatedly said this since the deal was made.

MP's are getting to vote on the 14th January 2019 so are not being denied a say as remainers are claiming.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> It is not May saying it is this deal or no deal it is the EU leaders that have repeatedly said this since the deal was made.
> 
> MP's are getting to vote on the 14th January 2019 so are not being denied a say as remainers are claiming.


Of course. Lots of people and their pets will be seriously affected , are you surprised?
Why deny people to express their wishes now that they are a bit more aware if they want to be about the real consequences?

I see Brexit as incredibly selfish, those who want it don't give a damn about those who will suffer serious consequences.
It will never be forgiven or pardoned.

Those who would suffer may not accept it meekly and society will be split for generations to come. Like Spain was split by Franco. Still is.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course. Lots of people and their pets will be seriously affected , are you surprised?
> Why deny people to express their wishes now that they are a bit more aware if they want to be about the real consequences?
> 
> I see Brexit as incredibly selfish, those who want it don't give a damn about those who will suffer serious consequences.
> It will never be forgiven or pardoned.
> 
> Those who would suffer may not accept it meekly and society will be split for generations to come. Like Spain was split by Franco. Still is.


Remainers have been expressing their views on the streets whilst the silent majority made themselves heard at the ballot box on the 23rd June 2016 yet remainers won't accept that people voted leave and want to deny those that voted leave to have what they voted for.


----------



## Elles

You seriously think they want to protect their constituents by holding the country to ransom? Nothing selfish or arrogant about it then? No poor will suffer from such a threat and action? People voted to leave the Eu. I think it’s an absolutely disgusting way of remain MPs trying to get what they want. 

I can’t even imagine what Remainers would be saying if brexiteers did the same thing to get a referendum and then still leave, even if Remain had won. I’m utterly disgusted. The end would not justify the means, they should have voted Theresa May out on the number of occasions they’ve had the chance to do so, if they didn’t agree with her. But no, too scared of a GE and losing their jobs no doubt. Pathetic.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Those MP's threatening to hold the country to ransom until remainers get what they want should have their seats put up for re-election. How disgraceful of them to even consider doing what they are planning to do. They should be ashamed of themselves. The UK voted to leave the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Those MP's threatening to hold the country to ransom until remainers get what they want should have their seats put up for re-election. How disgraceful of them to even consider doing what they are planning to do. They should be ashamed of themselves. The UK voted to leave the EU.


52 percent voted for something very vague, no plan, lots of different ideas.
Why people can't vote now that the mysterious deal is revealed?
Scared? That people who thought they will be better off now might twigged to reality?
Why do you want so much that your country is worse off?

What I cannot see is those who think Trump and " America First " is appalling but ERG and" Britain First " are not?
Trump's Wall is bad but the treatment of EU citizens legally in UK is fine???
Brexit in UK and Trump in USA are very much the same thing with the same sponsorship.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> 52 percent voted for something very vague, no plan, lots of different ideas.
> Why people can't vote now that the mysterious deal is revealed?
> Scared? That people who thought they will be better off now might twigged to reality?
> Why do you want so much that your country is worse off?
> 
> What I cannot see is those who think Trump and " America First " is appalling but ERG and" Britain First " are not?
> Trump's Wall is bad but the treatment of EU citizens legally in UK is fine???
> Brexit in UK and Trump in USA are very much the same thing with the same sponsorship.


Some remainers are trying to deny a democrate result from a democrate vote from being delivered. Some remainers are trying to subvert democracy. Some remainers have turned their backs on democracy and are threatening all sorts of disorder until they get what they want. Some remainers want to hold the country to ransom to get what they want.

Remainers have all different ideas of what remain actually means. There are more remain groups than leave groups. A remainer PM is in charge trying to deliver a remain style brexit. Why are you blaming leave voters for this mess when remainers are in charge of this mess as it was created by a remainer PM. The Brexitiers left Government when they saw May creating this mess. Brexitiers haven't had an opportunity in power to deliver their Brexit only one remainer PM has.


----------



## Elles

I don’t have a problem with a second referendum as I’ve said more than once. I object very strongly to this method of trying to force one.


----------



## stuaz

A second referendum makes sense now the divorce deal is finalised. It's just logical and doesn't "go against democracy", if anything, just further enforces it.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Remainers have all different ideas of what remain actually means.


Would you care to elaborate on this? As far as I can logically deduce, the existance of a significant number of disparate Remain groups doesn't mean their idea of what remain means is different, given there is (and always has been) only one logical interpretation of 'Remain' - that things stay as they were before the referendum and we do not change any aspect of our membership of the EU. Just because you might have, oh I don't know, 'taxi drivers for Remain', 'cyclists for Remain', 'tube passengers for Remain', 'skateborders for Remain', 'bungee jumpers for Remain' etc. doesn't mean Remain is defined differently for all of them. If we're being honest, 'Remain' is pretty much the only clearly defined term in the whole shebang... 



stockwellcat. said:


> Why are you blaming leave voters for this mess


Well, technically speaking, this IS what you voted for - no more, no less  The ballot form only said 'Leave', not what leave would actually look like. Turns out, this is what 'Leave' looks like. Granted, it might not be anything like the picture in your imagination when you voted, but it is what you voted for.



stockwellcat. said:


> when remainers are in charge of this mess as it was created by a remainer PM.


Ah, come now - lets not forget the infighting, the backstabbing, the wholly unnecessary General Election, the Brexiteer Brexit Secretaries...



stockwellcat. said:


> The Brexitiers left Government when they saw May creating this mess. Brexitiers haven't had an opportunity in power to deliver their Brexit only one remainer PM has.


Yes, they definitely resemble Bold Sir Robin in that department...


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You seriously think they want to protect their constituents by holding the country to ransom? Nothing selfish or arrogant about it then? No poor will suffer from such a threat and action? People voted to leave the Eu. I think it's an absolutely disgusting way of remain MPs trying to get what they want.
> 
> I can't even imagine what Remainers would be saying if brexiteers did the same thing to get a referendum and then still leave, even if Remain had won. I'm utterly disgusted. The end would not justify the means, they should have voted Theresa May out on the number of occasions they've had the chance to do so, if they didn't agree with her. But no, too scared of a GE and losing their jobs no doubt. Pathetic.


I think you're building this up into something that it isn't.

Firstly, Grieve and co are not dumb or irresponsible enough to stop the government being able to collect taxes. It's a ploy. A device. It is intended to stop No Deal; that is all. Other mechanisms will be found to allow the public sector to continue. The Independent is a newspaper and exaggerates the potential effects. It may not even happen at all. That's why I simply said it was interesting.

Secondly the MPs are not trying to 'Remain', they are trying to stop No Deal. If the voters still want, for whatever reason, to leave the EU knowing the economic damage that will cause, then fine. But the amount of damage they are allowed to self-inflict and to cause to others should be limited, and No Deal crosses the line. That is what the MPs are trying to do. That's all.


----------



## Arnie83

A Radio 4 series coming soon takes a view on Brexit from abroad. Needless to say it won't chime with the views of leavers, but it looks interesting.

In As Others See Us, MacGregor talks to people from Nigeria, Canada, Egypt, Germany and India, some of whom are shocked at the public discourse around Brexit in the UK.

"Because the rest of the world sees the EU as such a positive force, our language about it as the enemy, our comparing it with Nazi Germany, [Boris, 2016] is not only seen as incomprehensible but also unacceptable," he said.

"The rest of the world do not understand any rhetoric about Europe as a repressive, dominant, constraining force. They see it as an enabling phenomenon that has been achieved at great effort and which is also a model for the rest of the world."

"There is growing bewilderment at the language used, at the desire to cast the EU as the enemy, which brave little Britain alone was resisting."​
Seems that the UK is the only one in step. To me it seems such a shame, and so obviously a case of .'our tribe v. the Others'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have got to the point were I am tired of listening to the constant whigning from some remainers. The UK voted to leave.

I have one final thing to say in this post.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I think you're building this up into something that it isn't.
> 
> Firstly, Grieve and co are not dumb or irresponsible enough to stop the government being able to collect taxes. It's a ploy. A device.


If that's the case, surely it would never succeed as a 'threat'?

A bit like asking for a ransom when you haven't actually kidnapped anyone?


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on FB. This did cross my mind...

I'm surely not alone in suspecting that the whole "crisis" and "state of emergency" over the inflatable boats crossing the Channel carrying would-be migrants , is simply being whipped up to help Theresa May get her wretched deal through Parliament.
Cue Brexiter MP Charlie Elphicke, MP for Dover piping up with his dire "warnings".....Cue Sajid Javed threatening to bring in the troops etc etc.
It's all part of the same right wing story, with the Murdoch media and the sycophantic BBC acting as midwives in the oh-so-easy birth and dissemination of the climate of fear.
Just what May needs...the suspicion that without a vote for her deal, we'll "lose control" of our borders.
Sickening isn't it?.....and meanwhile, the queues at our Food banks continue to grow, and rough sleepers continue to die on our pavements.
I'd like to be wishing you a Happy New Year,..but somehow, I just can't find the words.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on FB. This did cross my mind...
> 
> I'm surely not alone in suspecting that the whole "crisis" and "state of emergency" over the inflatable boats crossing the Channel carrying would-be migrants , is simply being whipped up to help Theresa May get her wretched deal through Parliament.
> Cue Brexiter MP Charlie Elphicke, MP for Dover piping up with his dire "warnings".....Cue Sajid Javed threatening to bring in the troops etc etc.
> It's all part of the same right wing story, with the Murdoch media and the sycophantic BBC acting as midwives in the oh-so-easy birth and dissemination of the climate of fear.
> Just what May needs...the suspicion that without a vote for her deal, we'll "lose control" of our borders.
> Sickening isn't it?.....and meanwhile, the queues at our Food banks continue to grow, and rough sleepers continue to die on our pavements.
> I'd like to be wishing you a Happy New Year,..but somehow, I just can't find the words.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> A Radio 4 series coming soon takes a view on Brexit from abroad. Needless to say it won't chime with the views of leavers, but it looks interesting.
> 
> In As Others See Us, MacGregor talks to people from Nigeria, Canada, Egypt, Germany and India, some of whom are shocked at the public discourse around Brexit in the UK.
> 
> "Because the rest of the world sees the EU as such a positive force, our language about it as the enemy, our comparing it with Nazi Germany, [Boris, 2016] is not only seen as incomprehensible but also unacceptable," he said.
> 
> "The rest of the world do not understand any rhetoric about Europe as a repressive, dominant, constraining force. They see it as an enabling phenomenon that has been achieved at great effort and which is also a model for the rest of the world."
> 
> "There is growing bewilderment at the language used, at the desire to cast the EU as the enemy, which brave little Britain alone was resisting."​
> Seems that the UK is the only one in step. To me it seems such a shame, and so obviously a case of .'our tribe v. the Others'.


So do you think they wont want to do business with us after Brexit because of their views of us ?


----------



## KittenKong

From Brexit Exposed:

DISTRACTION PAR EXCELLENCE | With austerity meaning thousands sleep homeless on the streets every night, food banks feeding tens of thousands more and hundred of thousands of disabled and poorer people are affected by benefits changes, the Government finds it politically expedient to call less than a handful of immigrants crossing the channel each day a national ‘crisis’ that may require military intervention. 

We guess the first few issues don’t quite connect with their anti-Brexit ‘take back control’ of borders and ‘sunlit uplands’ message to the Leavers. 

Like | Follow | Share


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> A Radio 4 series coming soon takes a view on Brexit from abroad. Needless to say it won't chime with the views of leavers, but it looks interesting.
> 
> In As Others See Us, MacGregor talks to people from Nigeria, Canada, Egypt, Germany and India, some of whom are shocked at the public discourse around Brexit in the UK.
> 
> "Because the rest of the world sees the EU as such a positive force, our language about it as the enemy, our comparing it with Nazi Germany, [Boris, 2016] is not only seen as incomprehensible but also unacceptable," he said.
> 
> "The rest of the world do not understand any rhetoric about Europe as a repressive, dominant, constraining force. They see it as an enabling phenomenon that has been achieved at great effort and which is also a model for the rest of the world."
> 
> "There is growing bewilderment at the language used, at the desire to cast the EU as the enemy, which brave little Britain alone was resisting."​
> Seems that the UK is the only one in step. To me it seems such a shame, and so obviously a case of .'our tribe v. the Others'.


I talk to people all over the world on a daily basis. I play mmos. I already know what the people I speak to think. If this programme demonstrates an overall positive view of the Eu 'The rest of the world sees the Eu as such a positive force etc' they're making it up. Any comparisons to nazi Germany, which on petforums is usually aimed at Theresa May and the U.K., not the Eu, is unacceptable, but harping back that idiot in 2016? Really?

I'm getting really irritated now. What happened to moderate views and discourse?


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> From Brexit Exposed:
> 
> DISTRACTION PAR EXCELLENCE | With austerity meaning thousands sleep homeless on the streets every night, food banks feeding tens of thousands more and hundred of thousands of disabled and poorer people are affected by benefits changes, the Government finds it politically expedient to call less than a handful of immigrants crossing the channel each day a national 'crisis' that may require military intervention.
> 
> We guess the first few issues don't quite connect with their anti-Brexit 'take back control' of borders and 'sunlit uplands' message to the Leavers.
> 
> Like | Follow | Share


It is a crisis. I don't call over 200 in a few weeks a handful and it's incredibly dangerous, not just to them, but to others in the area. What should they do? Ignore it? Isn't this what Noushka would call 'whataboutery'?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> It is a crisis. I don't call over 200 in a few weeks a handful and it's incredibly dangerous, not just to them, but to others in the area. What should they do? Ignore it? Isn't this what Noushka would call 'whataboutery'?


Yes indeed , It would be stupid to ignore it . More and more people will attempt to come , putting themselves at great risk of drowning and only racketeers profit.
We should accept refugees through legal channels.
Though that begs the question that if there are thousands in the UK homeless and not enough homes where will we put the refugees who need shelter?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> It is a crisis. I don't call over 200 in a few weeks a handful and it's incredibly dangerous, not just to them, but to others in the area. What should they do? Ignore it? Isn't this what Noushka would call 'whataboutery'?


You might be interested in reading this article which gives a plausible explanation as to why this increase in migrants is happening!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-46296249


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Yes indeed , It would be stupid to ignore it . More and more people will attempt to come , putting themselves at great risk of drowning and only racketeers profit.
> We should accept refugees through legal channels.
> Though that begs the question that if there are thousands in the UK homeless and not enough homes where will we put the refugees who need shelter?


We could always do what Denmark are said to be planning to do

I'm sure we've got a few uninhabited islands which could accommodate a few hundred!

http://fortune.com/2018/12/04/denmark-migrants-lindholm-island-immigration/


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> We could always do what Denmark are said to be planning to do
> 
> I'm sure we've got a few uninhabited islands which could accommodate a few hundred!
> 
> http://fortune.com/2018/12/04/denmark-migrants-lindholm-island-immigration/


 I hope thats not true.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It is a crisis. I don't call over 200 in a few weeks a handful and it's incredibly dangerous, not just to them, but to others in the area. What should they do? Ignore it? Isn't this what Noushka would call 'whataboutery'?


But don't you consider it odd this is happening now and not a few weeks ago?

It is a distraction.


----------



## KittenKong

Doing away with 1960s policies? This government really have lost the plot.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...CQ57n_4N2zhaRzgQWFNlfe-m4yOFxJ5I6vxqOOw_eGBII


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I'm getting really irritated now. What happened to moderate views and discourse?


So am I.

There's nothing moderate about Brexit, especially a hard one or TM's xenophobic one.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> But don't you consider it odd this is happening now and not a few weeks ago?
> 
> It is a distraction.


 If you'd said this when the vote was due but then cancelled I would believe you but nothing is happening right now. Whats the point of having a distraction now at Christmas and New year ? 
perhaps the drones were a distraction.

The numbers of people trying to cross the channel in dingies has grown in a few weeks .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> If you'd said this when the vote was due but then cancelled I would believe you but nothing is happening right now. Whats the point of having a distraction now at Christmas and New year ?
> perhaps the drones were a distraction.
> 
> The numbers of people trying to cross the channel in dingies has grown in a few weeks .


I very much doubt they are EU citizens desperate to get in.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I very much doubt they are EU citizens desperate to get in.


I never said they were .Your reply is not really to do with the subject of distraction which KK brought up .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Doing away with 1960s policies? This government really have lost the plot.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...CQ57n_4N2zhaRzgQWFNlfe-m4yOFxJ5I6vxqOOw_eGBII
> 
> View attachment 385811
> View attachment 385812





KittenKong said:


> So am I.
> 
> There's nothing moderate about Brexit, especially a hard one or TM's xenophobic one.
> 
> View attachment 385814


Your posts get more and more desperate . Its hard to take you seriously.


----------



## Elles

I think I've already made it clear what I think about comparing registering in the U.K. to nazis and mass genocide.

Here's the twitter feed it came from with replies


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1079083140336050176
It seems many Remainers are just as appalled about it as I am.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Your posts get more and more desperate . Its hard to take you seriously.


I am finding most of the posts on here now from remainers are getting desperate. I am finding it hard to take any of them seriously anymore.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I hope thats not true.


So do I!


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I never said they were .Your reply is not really to do with the subject of distraction which KK brought up .


Spin off...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> But don't you consider it odd this is happening now and not a few weeks ago?
> 
> It is a distraction.


Rubbish!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-46296249

https://news.sky.com/story/why-are-more-migrants-trying-to-cross-the-channel-this-christmas-11594750

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/28/channel-migrant-crossings-who-is-coming-and-why


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-46296249
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/why-are-more-migrants-trying-to-cross-the-channel-this-christmas-11594750
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/28/channel-migrant-crossings-who-is-coming-and-why


Well the armed forces (army, royal air force and navy) have been put on standby to assist the Coast Guard and UK Board Force according to news reports this morning. The police believe it is a trafficking gang that are involved in sending migrants across the channel. They are working with the French to have the migrants detained in the UK to be sent back to France.


----------



## Elles

The French are treating them appallingly badly according to the links, yet they don’t get a mention here. Just the big, bad British.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> I think I've already made it clear what I think about comparing registering in the U.K. to nazis and mass genocide.
> 
> Here's the twitter feed it came from with replies
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/IanBlackfordMP/status/1079083140336050176?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
> 
> It seems many Remainers are just as appalled about it as I am.


Absolutely disgraceful what Balckford tweeted.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I think I've already made it clear what I think about comparing registering in the U.K. to nazis and mass genocide.
> 
> Here's the twitter feed it came from with replies
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/IanBlackfordMP/status/1079083140336050176?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
> 
> It seems many Remainers are just as appalled about it as I am.


I think you'll find more remainers are disgusted at how "none UK" born citizens are being treated by this vile government just to please the Yaxley-Lennon element and the likes.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

• The Bedroom Tax..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Taking £30 a week from the disabled..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Not having to dodge turds while swimming..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Can’t get an appointment with your GP..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Schools sending begging letters to parents..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Equal pay for men and women doing the same job..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Smallest military since the Napoleonic Wars..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Taking mobility and dignity from the disabled..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Statutory right to 12 months maternity leave..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Record numbers of homeless families..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Wait up to 18 months to see a mental health practitioner..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Working Time Directive, so you can’t be forced by an employer to work more than 48 hours a week - unless you choose to..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Record number of children living in poverty..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Homeless rough-sleepers rising to record levels since 2010..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Free access to medical care in any other member country..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Record overcrowding and drug use in prisons..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Massive cuts in police numbers & police stations..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Keep your holiday entitlement because you were ill..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• In full-time employment but still living in poverty..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Food-banks in the sixth richest country in the world..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Upcoming legislation to clamp down on tax avoidance..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• Zero Hours contracts..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• The obscenity of the Windrush scandal - hidden for years..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

• Abolished mobile phone roaming charges..?
That wasn’t the Tories. It was the EU.

• 50p a minute phone line for people in poverty to ring for advice..?
That wasn’t the EU. It was the Tories.

Additions welcome.


----------



## KittenKong

And if people thinking I'm just targeting Theresa May and other far right wingers I think this addresses the balance somewhat.

Which reinforces my belief Brexit caters for extremists.

http://www.socialist-labour-party.org.uk/electioncampaign.html


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Absolutely disgraceful what Balckford tweeted.


And equally appalling that KK persists on bringing it up on PF!


----------



## Snoringbear

Another leave lie


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Another leave lie


# 6687 already posted this.


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> Another leave lie


If you'd kept up with the thread you'd know it has already been posted by someone else a few days ago.


----------



## Elles

Yep and the trouble is, it wasn’t a lie either. Lawfully resident is an actual status and for those who come under this heading nothing will change. If anything it gets better, they can leave the country for 5 years instead of just 2 if they do decide to take out settled status, which will cost them nothing. 

If it’s actually processed correctly, smoothly and error free, which is the actual big question, Eu citizens already here are doing better out of Brexit than the British, or British expats and will have nothing to complain about. They can stay home here and still have an Eu passport, which is more than Brits will get. For expats their status has still to be decided and in the event of no deal will be down to negotiations with their country of residence. The wrong people are getting their knickers in a twist if you ask me, especially when they start comparing it to registering Jews in Nazi Germany.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> And equally appalling that KK persists on bringing it up on PF!


Absolutely agree.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46701886


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> We'd be going around in bigger circles with Corbyn and his crew at the helm as they don't have a clue either.


*May has had her chance and failed as far as i'm concerned. JC couldn't do worse i know.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Another leave lie


Keep up. This has already been discussed.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46701886


Read the last few pages, we've already been discussing it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *May has had her chance and failed as far as i'm concerned. JC couldn't do worse i know.*


JC is selling a lie. He is saying he would be able to negotiate a better deal before 29th March 2019 and keep the UK in the SM and CU and still be able to strike trade deals around the world. You cannot do this when in the SM and CU so it is a lie. He is also not able to strike another deal before 29th March 2019, it is not possible. The EU have said the deal on the table is the deal on offer, the only other deal (plan b) is no deal. The EU leaders have been saying this since October/November.

Junker said on Friday the UK needs to get to grips with things as there is nothing else on offer and they are confused about how people are acting up in the UK.

There is a take or leave it deal on offer. No wriggle room or room for renegotiations.

Only 89 days and just over 7 hours left until 11pm on 29th March 2019.


----------



## Snoringbear

After signing up for the Mod Ball Rally today, I’m hoping Brexit doesn’t affect it


----------



## Elles

And I’m sorry, but I read the whining and it’s bloody ridiculous. As an Eu citizen already living in the U.K. your status is guaranteed, for a relatively small sum if you haven’t already registered here, which you probably have if you’ve been here for years, when it’s free of charge for you. Even in the case of no deal.

I’m a British citizen who voted remain. What do I get in the case of no deal? Nada, nothing, zero, zilch. Until the various governments have made their decisions. As for ex pats some of them could be in an even worse situation.

So, I’m stuck with it and you’re posting complete rubbish on twitter about how badly you’re being treated, when you’re getting even more opportunity than you have now. So go suck a pipe imo. ompus


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> And I'm sorry, but I read the whining and it's bloody ridiculous. As an Eu citizen already living in the U.K. your status is guaranteed, for a relatively small sum if you haven't already registered here, which you probably have if you've been here for years, when it's free of charge for you. Even in the case of no deal.


What are UK citizens getting in the EU? Uncertainity because the EU have failed to offer recipicle rights and instead have told UK citizens to approach the authorites in the relevant countries they are in with no guarantee they can stay.

EU citizens pay £65 for permemant residency UK citizens have to pay over £1,000 to complete the process to become a citizen in the country they are in after spending 5 years and 3 months in that country first. I put an example up the other day. £65 is peanuts.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m British, not sure if your reply was meant for me, though.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yep and the trouble is, it wasn't a lie either. Lawfully resident is an actual status and for those who come under this heading nothing will change. If anything it gets better, they can leave the country for 5 years instead of just 2 if they do decide to take out settled status, which will cost them nothing.
> 
> If it's actually processed correctly, smoothly and error free, which is the actual big question, Eu citizens already here are doing better out of Brexit than the British, or British expats and will have nothing to complain about. They can stay home here and still have an Eu passport, which is more than Brits will get. For expats their status has still to be decided and in the event of no deal will be down to negotiations with their country of residence. The wrong people are getting their knickers in a twist if you ask me, especially when they start comparing it to registering Jews in Nazi Germany.


Thank you Elles, you're absolutely correct!

I've tried to point out more than once on this thread that it's the ex-pats who don't know where they stand, but unfortunately the 1.3 million British living in Europe seem to be of minor importance in the scheme of things. Admittedly, there wasn't much that TM or the EU could do during the negotiations as the fate of ex-pats lies solely with the government of the country they're resident in.

Obviously I can only speak for the British ex-pats I know who are living in Hungary, but we're certainly not getting our knickers in a twist or accusing TM of selling us down the river. Instead, we're discussing the options open to us in order to continue living here and some but not all are considering taking out Hungarian citizenship to maintain our EU status, which will naturally cost money!

And as a matter of interest a residents permit costs 60 Euro = £54 per person


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> I'm British, not sure if your reply was meant for me, though.


I am British to. So is @Magyarmum and @Elles. What is your point? Free Movement isn't as free as it sounds.


----------



## Snoringbear

I was replying to Elles.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> I was replying to Elles.


ok :Headphone


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> • Record numbers of homeless families..?
> That wasn't the EU. It was the Tories.


Can't be bothered to go through it all but do you ever look outside your anti Tory/UK vitriolic press?

https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/

https://www.eurodiaconia.org/2018/0...xclusion-homelessness-increase-across-europe/


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> I'm British, not sure if your reply was meant for me, though.


No, it was meant for all the 'you' who are complaining, swearing and generally being idiots about it on twitter and forums. The 'you' who can happily live in the U.K. having filled out a quick form on the internet and paid any relevant fees, nothing at all in many cases, whilst still retaining an Eu passport and nationality giving you the same access to European countries that you had before brexit.

Unlike us plebs. If you're a Brit living in Britain without some form of dual nationality, you'll be in the same boat as I am.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> If that's the case, surely it would never succeed as a 'threat'?
> 
> A bit like asking for a ransom when you haven't actually kidnapped anyone?


Let's see what happens.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> So do you think they wont want to do business with us after Brexit because of their views of us ?


Not for a moment. I think they will respect us less and our international influence will decline, but I don't see trade being affected by their views at all.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I talk to people all over the world on a daily basis. I play mmos. I already know what the people I speak to think. If this programme demonstrates an overall positive view of the Eu 'The rest of the world sees the Eu as such a positive force etc' they're making it up. Any comparisons to nazi Germany, which on petforums is usually aimed at Theresa May and the U.K., not the Eu, is unacceptable, but harping back that idiot in 2016? Really?
> 
> I'm getting really irritated now. *What happened to moderate views and discourse?*


I have wondered the same, often when listening to the views of Rees-Mogg, IDS, Farage etc on the EU negotiators, the 'bullies' and 'thugs' in Brussels, the Governor of the Bank of England being a failed second-tier Canadian politician, suggestions that our EU ambassador wasn't trustworthy, etc.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Not for a moment. I think they will respect us less and our international influence will decline, but I don't see trade being affected by their views at all.


so not much difference then. It's just their opinions but opinions change all the time. Money talks more than "respect" .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> so not much difference then. It's just their opinions but opinions change all the time. Money talks more than "respect" .


I don't think I will notice any difference, certainly, but then I don't care what others think of the country. There are many who think differently.


----------



## KittenKong

The humiliation goes on.
I mean £14m from our pockets to find a firm that hasn't run a ferry service before!

This is beyond incompetent.
What a joke...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46714984


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

The CEO is a Frenchman who ran MyFerryLink and before that worked for Brittany Ferries.

Jean-Michel Copyans

Given that the rest of the contracts went to French and Danish firms, are there any British firms left doing anything these days? Don't see quite how the government can be accused of being anti Europe and xenophobic.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 385940


ITV news tonight says government was under pressure to do something and Javid cut short his holiday to come back to the UK and speak to his French counterpart .
Diane Abbott criticised the government for not doing something sooner as it wasn't fair to the refugees or the people of Kent either .

Looks like Vox political are just stirring up a load of shite.


----------



## Arnie83

For info ...

*EU, Mercosur aim to make world's biggest trade bloc by end of 2019*

The EU and Japan will soon become the world's biggest free trade area. But this record might be short-lived with Brussels chasing a deal with South America's Mercosur, EU's Cecilia Malmström has said.​
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-mercosur-aim-to-make-worlds-biggest-trade-bloc-by-end-of-2019/a-46896212

The ERG claim - in fact anyone's claim - that Brexit is going to provide economic benefits from global trade deals that will outweigh the costs of leaving is looking either increasingly daft, or increasingly disingenuous.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Yes, many of us do; we are of the opinion that life is too short to fill it time and time again with stultiloquy. *We have lives elsewher*e.


As I've just had the loveliest Christmas with my wonderful Hubby, Children, family & friends this can't possibly have been a dig at me



Calvine said:


> I read as many as I can (it being part of my job). And I said ''papers'' (plural).


An educated guess to assume the ONLY 'papers' which wouldn't have reported that repulsive UKIP poster as a clear attempt to whip up hatred of immigrants are these hate filled rags which themselves have been demonising immigrants for years? Am I right?

And people wonder how Jo Cox's murderer was radicalised!












Calvine said:


> You may well have a point. The fact that Brown was totally devoid of personality or charisma also didn't help his chances.


This is why we're in such a state. Why on earth don't people vote for policies over personalities? If we did the Greens would be in government & we'd have a decent caring society. with the environment at the top of the agenda & a chance to save us from catastrophic runaway climate breakdown.



Happy Paws said:


> For the only time in my life I agree with his remakes, You have know idea who is under the veil and that unnerves me.





Calvine said:


> Yep . . . agree with you. One of the mods had a go at me for suggesting that there could be a bloke with a Kalashnikov under the ''offending garment''.





Calvine said:


> Other countries have banned them, even some predominantly muslim countries.


Please get some perspective. How many UK citizens have actually been harmed by someone wearing the 'offending garment'? Has anyone?

Nothing should scare people more than the tory party. Thousands of people have actually DIED & are suffering due to their austerity policies. The most dangerous minority in this country are the Etonians & their cohorts.

Thanks to them 4 Million kids are living in poverty, millions are reliant on food banks, GPs prescribing nutritional drinks to starving patients, homeless dying on our streets, 19 Million* Workers* now on the edge of poverty.












KittenKong said:


> Sad to learn this. One of the few decent human beings in parliament in the past.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46662546
> 
> View attachment 383485


An MP with great integrity for sure. Its clear he was well liked & respected across the board.

Here are his last tweets. Even in illness he was clearly thinking about the best interests of his country. The absolute antithesis of the tory crooks.

*Paddy Ashdown*: _Having snoozed contentedly over the weekend while their poor orphan leader has been out trying to win support for the insupportable, watch what happens next as May's Cabinet of revivifying vipers ,snuff the air and slither off in search of advantage for the next stage.

We see clearly now who the ERG playgroup really are. Bad judgement, poor timing, over-grown egos, fantasy politics, prep-school tactics - they are less a political movement - more a Beano comic strip about Lord Snooty's little rag-tag gang throwing ink-balls at the headmistress._

_This Brexit shambles exposes how far the Conservatives Party has degenerated. For all her faults, Mrs May remains the only adult in the room. At the top, the rest are just a bunch of self obsessed pygmies, charlatans and incompetents who should not be allowed to run a whelk stall_



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 383523
> 
> View attachment 383524
> 
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...oor-no-deal-brexit-may-now-least-painful/amp/


Its thanks to morally bankrupt swivel eyed loons like Hannan, Farage, Redwood, Mogg, Johnson et al that we're in this mess in the first place! These pathological selfserving liars are no better than that orange balloon bringing great shame on the USA!.

Shehab Khan: _ John Redwood MP campaigned for Brexit while having a second £180k job at an investment management firm.

Post Brexit he advised investors to pull money out the UK because of the state of the economy.

He has now been knighted.

Tell me again how the honours system isn't a joke









_



stockwellcat. said:


> That is quite insulting.





Elles said:


> *We* voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> .


NOT. IN. MY. NAME. >>>

_
Merry Christmas to EU citizens in the UK, who can look forward to paying £65 each to *apply* to stay in their own homes, jobs and with their families. All via a very problematic app and with the constant fear of rejection and consequences in the #HostileEnvironment_.

_Wow. This is making me feel so welcome, after 28 years of life here, making friends, paying taxes, bringing up two wonderful British citizens ... thank you so much for this slap in the face, @ukhomeoffice . Absolutely sickening_

_

Genuinely horrific we are doing this to people who have lived, worked and contributed to this country for so many years. This is what Brexit was about for many people and it's shameful._

_Anyone else embarrassed to look their neighbours and friends in the eye? I live in Ealing for god sake! Anyone else devasted same friends and neighbours..teachers...my children's best buddies have to go through this to stay in the place that's home? Inhuman_

_Ok here's the thing, EU citizens in the UK were promised to continue their lives "as before".
But settled status is a lesser status & we need to apply, qualify & pay for it. If you don't care about us,

think about this: can you still trust the Govt with your own rights?

Absolutely fundamental principle: a govt that strips citizens of their rights (& lies about its intentions) will then do the same to YOU when it suits them. History is unequivocal about this tendency.

For those telling me not to complain because "it's only £65".

Yes, I can afford it, but not everyone can.

Yes, I am tech savvy, but not everyone is.

EVERYONE was promised "automatic grant" of all existing rights.

And yes, I will criticise this even if it was 20p to apply.

................................................................_



stockwellcat. said:


> That is quite insulting.


I'm afraid thats exactly who Johnson & the hard right do appeal to. And over in the US, Trump & the GOP use the same tactics to appeal to their supporters. The same divisive language, whipping up nationalism, rejecting facts they dont like as 'fake news', gaslighting the public. This is how they persuade voters to vote against their own best interests.

This made me laugh. (sent to me by a lovely pf member a while ago)


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> And I'm sorry, but I read the whining and it's bloody ridiculous. As an Eu citizen already living in the U.K. your status is guaranteed, for a relatively small sum if you haven't already registered here, which you probably have if you've been here for years, when it's free of charge for you. Even in the case of no deal.
> 
> I'm a British citizen who voted remain. What do I get in the case of no deal? Nada, nothing, zero, zilch. Until the various governments have made their decisions. As for ex pats some of them could be in an even worse situation.
> 
> So, I'm stuck with it and you're posting complete rubbish on twitter about how badly you're being treated, when you're getting even more opportunity than you have now. So go suck a pipe imo. ompus


Any tangible benefits for ANYONE??

Brexit is an all round disaster for all of us!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It is a crisis. I don't call over 200 in a few weeks a handful and it's incredibly dangerous, not just to them, but to others in the area. What should they do? Ignore it? Isn't this what Noushka would call 'whataboutery'?


These are good examples of classic whataboutery 



Elles said:


> The French are treating them appallingly badly according to the links, yet they don't get a mention here. Just the big, bad British.





rona said:


> Can't be bothered to go through it all but do you ever look outside your anti Tory/UK vitriolic press?
> 
> https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/
> 
> https://www.eurodiaconia.org/2018/0...xclusion-homelessness-increase-across-europe/


----------



## Arnie83

... But let's not worry about South America and Japan trade deals, we can always make one with our bestest friends, the USA ...

*Donald Trump's offer of a "quick, massive bilateral trade deal" won't be possible if Theresa May's Brexit deal is backed by Parliament, the US ambassador to the UK has warned.*

Woody Johnson told Radio 4's Today programme such a arrangement could lead to an "exciting future" for the UK.

*But that's only if Mrs May's withdrawal agreement does not succeed, he said.*​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46720323

So the best deal May can get leaves us worse off vis a vis EU trade, and with no USA trade deal to replace it.

But we're not going to let the People change their minds if they want to. They should have known this 30 months ago, shouldn't they?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> ITV news tonight says government was under pressure to do something and Javid cut short his holiday to come back to the UK and speak to his French counterpart .
> Diane Abbott criticised the government for not doing something sooner as it wasn't fair to the refugees or the people of Kent either .
> 
> Looks like Vox political are just stirring up a load of shite.


*David Lammy*: Make no mistake, this is not in response to genuine concern for human life. This is @sajidjavid imitating Donald Trump's "migrant caravan" manufactured emergency to whip up fear before the Brexit vote. Desperate and cynical.

*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 16h16 hours ago
"Sorry, kids. Daddy has to go home to help whip up a panic against a tiny group of refugees so he can become Prime Minister"


----------



## noushka05

Never a truer word spoken.

_The greatest trick the Tories ever pulled was convincing working class British voters, who feel left behind, to blame the EU & immigrants for their troubles while also convincing them to continue voting for the very party actually responsib_le.



Elles said:


> No, it was meant for all the 'you' who are complaining, swearing and generally being idiots about it on twitter and forums. The 'you' who can happily live in the U.K. having filled out a quick form on the internet and paid any relevant fees, nothing at all in many cases, whilst still retaining an Eu passport and nationality giving you the same access to European countries that you had before brexit.
> 
> Unlike us plebs. If you're a Brit living in Britain without some form of dual nationality, you'll be in the same boat as I am.


You're all heart Elles. I feel for EU nationals living here who were PROMISED nothing would change AND I feel for UK nationals who did not want any of this, particularly for the young generation, who will lose their right to freedom of movement. Its an all round shambles.

I wish I were Scottish. I would be incredibly proud to be connected to such a tolerant and welcoming country.


----------



## KittenKong

Not exactly related to Brexit, but this is no surprise from the vermin that "govern".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eOmfrUb_BWOfR2b_Ng5siLbU5PdDapoMAL8jSkUgvzt1L

















No doubt she would postpone such a vote if she had any indication of losing it
A great Brexit dividend. Foxhunting is traditional and British isn't it.

And people here had a go at me when I said the UK is going into reverse gear.

I despair

Welcome back Noushka. We've missed you.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Welcome back Noushka. We've missed you


Thank you KK! I suspect the number of people who missed me was down to single figures of 1! 

The tories will definitely repeal the hunting ban at the first opportunity. May claims to be a christian, yet her cruelty knows no bounds. If there is a god she will be banished to hell.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not exactly related to Brexit, but this is no surprise from the vermin that "govern".
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eOmfrUb_BWOfR2b_Ng5siLbU5PdDapoMAL8jSkUgvzt1L
> 
> View attachment 385997
> View attachment 385998
> 
> 
> No doubt she would postpone such a vote if she had any indication of losing it
> A great Brexit dividend. Foxhunting is traditional and British isn't it.
> 
> And people here had a go at me when I said the UK is going into reverse gear.
> 
> I despair
> 
> Welcome back Noushka. We've missed you.











We had this debate on another closed thread earlier this year. TM Abandoned these plans remember.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Not exactly related to Brexit, but this is no surprise from the vermin that "govern".
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eOmfrUb_BWOfR2b_Ng5siLbU5PdDapoMAL8jSkUgvzt1L
> 
> View attachment 385997
> View attachment 385998
> 
> 
> No doubt she would postpone such a vote if she had any indication of losing it
> A great Brexit dividend. Foxhunting is traditional and British isn't it.
> 
> And people here had a go at me when I said the UK is going into reverse gear.
> 
> I despair
> 
> Welcome back Noushka. We've missed you.


Scraping the bottom of the barrel again are you???

The article's dated 9th May 2017 - nearly two years old!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Scraping the bottom of the barrel again are you???
> 
> The article's dated 9th May 2017 - nearly two years old!


We have Noushka on one as you can see and kk dragging up old news. Day in the life a brexit thread on PF. There mustn't be any new news?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Scraping the bottom of the barrel again are you???
> 
> The article's dated 9th May 2017 - nearly two years old!


It does not alter the fact that May supports animal cruelty nor the fact that the tories will repeal the ban if & when they get the opportunity.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> We have Noushka on one as you can see and kk dragging up old news. Day in the life a brexit thread on PF. There mustn't be any new news?


Do you have anything constructive to add to the debate SWC? All you seem to do is troll people & throw your rattle out of the pram.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Do you have anything constructive to add to the debate SWC? All you seem to do is troll people & throw your rattle out of the pram.


Do you have anything constructive noushka because all I see is the same old drivel. I am not trolling anyone and I only see you get frustrated throwing your dummy around.


----------



## noushka05

After stoking up all the anti immigrant sentiment the hatemongering Sun thinks the home office is being sinister.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you have anything constructive noushka because all I see is the same old drivel. I am not trollig anyone and I only see you get frustrated throwing your dummy around.


I have PLENTY of constructive things to say. You wont like any of them though because they are _factual_. So watch this space


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> After stoking up all the anti immigrant sentiment the hatemongering Sun thinks the home office is being sinister.


So sensibly then instead of using other peoples comments. How do we control migrants that are making the dangerous crossing through one of the worlds busiest shipping channels reaching the UK illegally and then sent back to France? Over 100 attempted to cross the English Channel during the Christmas period to be picked up by UK Boarder Force.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I have PLENTY of constructive things to say. You wont like any of them though because they are _factual_. So watch this space


Using other peoples opinions and news paper articles.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> It does not alter the fact that May supports animal cruelty nor the fact that the tories will repeal the ban if & when they get the opportunity.


Oh forgive me. I didn't realise you had a crystal ball and can foresee the future!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So sensibly then instead of using other peoples comments. How do we control migrants that are making the dangerous crossing through one of the worlds busiest shipping channels reaching the UK illegally and then sent back to France?


We help them & we take in our fair share of them. They are desperate people looking for help fgs!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> We help them & we take in our fair share of them. They are desperate people looking for help fgs!


They are not desperate noushka. If they was they would set up home in the first safe country they land in, in the EU. The majority of the migrants coming across have French citizenship (and are originally from Iran and Afghanistan). So you are suggesting they are fleeing France in desperation? Why? It is a safe country.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Oh forgive me. I didn't realise you had a crystal ball and can foresee the future!


You don't. You merely have to listen to their *words* & check out their voting record.


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> As I've just had the loveliest Christmas with my wonderful Hubby, Children, family & friends this can't possibly have been a dig at me
> 
> An educated guess to assume the ONLY 'papers' which wouldn't have reported that repulsive UKIP poster as a clear attempt to whip up hatred of immigrants are these hate filled rags which themselves have been demonising immigrants for years? Am I right?
> 
> And people wonder how Jo Cox's murderer was radicalised!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why we're in such a state. Why on earth don't people vote for policies over personalities? If we did the Greens would be in government & we'd have a decent caring society. with the environment at the top of the agenda & a chance to save us from catastrophic runaway climate breakdown.
> 
> Please get some perspective. How many UK citizens have actually been harmed by someone wearing the 'offending garment'? Has anyone?
> 
> Nothing should scare people more than the tory party. Thousands of people have actually DIED & are suffering due to their austerity policies. The most dangerous minority in this country are the Etonians & their cohorts.
> 
> Thanks to them 4 Million kids are living in poverty, millions are reliant on food banks, GPs prescribing nutritional drinks to starving patients, homeless dying on our streets, 19 Million* Workers* now on the edge of poverty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An MP with great integrity for sure. Its clear he was well liked & respected across the board.
> 
> Here are his last tweets. Even in illness he was clearly thinking about the best interests of his country. The absolute antithesis of the tory crooks.
> 
> *Paddy Ashdown*: _Having snoozed contentedly over the weekend while their poor orphan leader has been out trying to win support for the insupportable, watch what happens next as May's Cabinet of revivifying vipers ,snuff the air and slither off in search of advantage for the next stage.
> 
> We see clearly now who the ERG playgroup really are. Bad judgement, poor timing, over-grown egos, fantasy politics, prep-school tactics - they are less a political movement - more a Beano comic strip about Lord Snooty's little rag-tag gang throwing ink-balls at the headmistress._
> 
> _This Brexit shambles exposes how far the Conservatives Party has degenerated. For all her faults, Mrs May remains the only adult in the room. At the top, the rest are just a bunch of self obsessed pygmies, charlatans and incompetents who should not be allowed to run a whelk stall_
> 
> Its thanks to morally bankrupt swivel eyed loons like Hannan, Farage, Redwood, Mogg, Johnson et al that we're in this mess in the first place! These pathological selfserving liars are no better than that orange balloon bringing great shame on the USA!.
> 
> Shehab Khan: _ John Redwood MP campaigned for Brexit while having a second £180k job at an investment management firm.
> 
> Post Brexit he advised investors to pull money out the UK because of the state of the economy.
> 
> He has now been knighted.
> 
> Tell me again how the honours system isn't a joke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> NOT. IN. MY. NAME. >>>
> 
> _
> Merry Christmas to EU citizens in the UK, who can look forward to paying £65 each to *apply* to stay in their own homes, jobs and with their families. All via a very problematic app and with the constant fear of rejection and consequences in the #HostileEnvironment_.
> 
> _Wow. This is making me feel so welcome, after 28 years of life here, making friends, paying taxes, bringing up two wonderful British citizens ... thank you so much for this slap in the face, @ukhomeoffice . Absolutely sickening_
> 
> _
> 
> Genuinely horrific we are doing this to people who have lived, worked and contributed to this country for so many years. This is what Brexit was about for many people and it's shameful._
> 
> _Anyone else embarrassed to look their neighbours and friends in the eye? I live in Ealing for god sake! Anyone else devasted same friends and neighbours..teachers...my children's best buddies have to go through this to stay in the place that's home? Inhuman_
> 
> _Ok here's the thing, EU citizens in the UK were promised to continue their lives "as before".
> But settled status is a lesser status & we need to apply, qualify & pay for it. If you don't care about us,
> 
> think about this: can you still trust the Govt with your own rights?
> 
> Absolutely fundamental principle: a govt that strips citizens of their rights (& lies about its intentions) will then do the same to YOU when it suits them. History is unequivocal about this tendency.
> 
> For those telling me not to complain because "it's only £65".
> 
> Yes, I can afford it, but not everyone can.
> 
> Yes, I am tech savvy, but not everyone is.
> 
> EVERYONE was promised "automatic grant" of all existing rights.
> 
> And yes, I will criticise this even if it was 20p to apply.
> 
> ................................................................_
> 
> I'm afraid thats exactly who Johnson & the hard right do appeal to. And over in the US, Trump & the GOP use the same tactics to appeal to their supporters. The same divisive language, whipping up nationalism, rejecting facts they dont like as 'fake news', gaslighting the public. This is how they persuade voters to vote against their own best interests.
> 
> This made me laugh. (sent to me by a lovely pf member a while ago)


Do you really expect me to read all that, I have much better things to do.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> We have Noushka on one as you can see and kk dragging up old news. Day in the life a brexit thread on PF. There mustn't be any new news?


I know and don't you find it's becoming SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> They are not desperate noushka. If they was they would set up home in the first safe country they land in, in the EU. The majority of the migrants coming across have French citizenship (and are originally from Iran and Afghanistan). So you are suggesting they are fleeing France in desperation? Why? It is a safe country.


No France is not a safe country! The French are treating them appallingly. OUR country has helped to created millions of refugees yet we have practically slammed the door shut on them - even on unaccompanied children. For shame!


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Do you really expect me to read all that, I have much better things to do.


Just read this bit then HP

Please get some perspective. How many UK citizens have actually been harmed by someone wearing the 'offending garment'? Has anyone?

Nothing should scare people more than the tory party. Thousands of people have actually DIED & are suffering due to their austerity policies. The most dangerous minority in this country are the Etonians & their cohorts.

Thanks to them 4 Million kids are living in poverty, millions are reliant on food banks, GPs prescribing nutritional drinks to starving patients, homeless dying on our streets, 19 Million* Workers* now on the edge of poverty.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> No France is not a safe country! The French are treating them appallingly. OUR country has helped to created millions of refugees yet we have practically slammed the door shut on them - even on unaccompanied children. For shame!


So if France isn't safe why did they take up French Citizenship?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So if France isn't safe why did they take up French Citizenship?


Can you provide references please?


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Can you provide references please?


I can give you pleanty of references. What do you need an employment reference? Education reference? Housing Reference?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Oh forgive me. I didn't realise you had a crystal ball and can foresee the future!


I don't think a crystal ball is needed to see what this vile fascist government are doing.

I mean awarding £14m to a company that has no ships nor experience in operating ferries???

This should raise alarm bells to the most rampant brexiter I would've thought, let alone anyone else.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Do you really expect me to read all that, I have much better things to do.


:Hilarious I have dog poop to scoop up


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I can give you pleanty of references. What do you need an employment reference? Education reference? Housing Reference?


:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I can give you pleanty of references. What do you need an employment reference? Education reference? Housing Reference?


You know what references I mean SWC.

.............................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford Dec 
*BREAKING*. Govt has forced 26 drug companies & pharmaceutical orgs to sign gagging orders hiding No Deal Brexit plans from public.

Yet incredibly, it also ordered NHS staff last week to "reassure" the public re: Brexit.

Sorry. We do facts, not govt spin

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-ordered-to-sign-ndas?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I know and don't you find it's becoming SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Absolutely agree with you. This thread seems to stuck on going around in circles.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You know what references I mean SWC.
> 
> .............................................................................................


Nope. Enlighten me.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Nope. Enlighten me.


My god. Even Kim thought you were joking:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Touching words from John Major about Paddy Ashdown.


----------



## KittenKong

http://newsthump.com/2018/12/30/com...ment-that-managed-to-deport-british-citizens/


----------



## noushka05

Absolutely.

*Liam Young*‏:

94 people desperately attempting to cross the channel into the 5th richest nation of nearly 70 million people - who refuse to help them - is not a migrant crisis. It's a moral one.

32,465 likes


----------



## kimthecat

We should take genuine refugees in through the proper channels .
As has been continually said , we have thousands of homeless here and many have died , a shame that those who offered homes to economic migrants from the French camp but didn't actually home any like Bob Geldof, haven't made the same offer to the homeless.


ETA there are so many refugees and economic migrants that it is not possible to place them in the countries that they wish to live in . Genuine refugees from Syria etc would be glad just to be safe in most countries in the EU .


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> My god. Even Kim thought you were joking:Hilarious



So tell me you asked for references. You still haven't told me which ones you require and what for? :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> *Liam Young*‏:
> 
> 94 people desperately attempting to cross the channel into the 5th richest nation of nearly 70 million people - who refuse to help them - is not a migrant crisis. It's a moral one.
> 
> 32,465 likes


Illegally noushka. Trying to jump the queue of people who are legally trying to get over here. So why should they be allowed to jump the queue? They can choose which ever country they wish to live in on the continent until their asylum application is heard here in the UK.

I have no objection if the migrants go through the proper channels but not when the try to enter the UK illegally. Some even tried hijacking a cargo vessel over Christmas and the Special Boat Service stormed the boat. They are illegal noushka.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 You say that in the U.K. there are thousands homeless, people dying on our streets, people using food banks, children going hungry. A housing crisis. A crisis in the NHS. Brexit about to cause mass job layoffs and poverty. Yet we should take on people getting on boats in France, paying thousands to people smugglers, take them in and help them? They said that the French treat them badly and that's why they aren't staying there, or any other Eu country. They shouldn't be desperate by the time they get to Calais. They're in the Eu, which is more than we'll be in a few months.

I had huge sympathy for the Syrian refugees fleeing Syria. I felt that all Eu governments including Britain's should do everything they can to help these people and bring about peace, instead warmongering in the area. However, people who are already in Europe, need to abide by the laws and rules of Europe. Getting on dinghies in France to try to cross to Britain in the middle of winter, is dangerous, foolish, illegal and unnecessary.

Maybe you missed links to suggested hows and whys? Yes it's from the bbc, but has also been reported elsewhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-46296249

I've seen the article/meme from schools sending children home, maybe you posted it before. There's more to it than Tory policy unfortunately. Plus hungry, abused children tend to lie to protect their families. Having had school breakfast and dinner they will feel able to cope for another day. Crying about having to go home would be very odd. That's not what children tend to do ime. I hate to say it, but a school governor isn't in school. They do a few hours a month related to the running of the school, sitting on a committee. So if this person is genuine, it would be in a different role.

If children are starving, social services need contacting and the families given help and advice, or the children taken into care. A big problem is that many people today have no idea how to feed their families, education could help here. The saying about teaching a man to fish is very relevant. Oven chips and ketchup isn't a meal, nor is a macdonalds burger. Our poor are expected to have fridge, washing machine, microwave etc as a bare minimum, they need help with shopping and cooking, not more money.

Welfare needs to reach needy people promptly and efficiently. I would agree that is an issue. We have already discussed this to death a hundred times on petforums.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> No France is not a safe country! The French are treating them appallingly. OUR country has helped to created millions of refugees yet we have practically slammed the door shut on them - even on unaccompanied children. For shame!


Were there many children in the latest tranche coming over? Or is that distorted by the news agencies too?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> We should take genuine refugees in through the proper channels .
> As has been continually said , we have thousands of homeless here and many have died , a shame that those who offered homes to economic migrants from the French camp but didn't actually home any like Bob Geldof, haven't made the same offer to the homeless.


'economic migrants'?  Do you subscribe to the Daily Mail by any chance?

Proper channels? This government have even refused to take their share of unaccompanied children. Remember?? Yes we have thousands of homeless here BECAUSE of the governments policies. We are the 5th wealthiest nation on the planet - we could solve the homeless crisis PLUS do our bit to help refugees.

But this is exactly how the tories operate. Divide & rule! I remember people signing a petition to stop 'health migrants' using our NHS even though it would do nothing to save it from collapse. Great distraction for the government though while they underfund & privatise it 

*NHS Against Brexit*‏ @NHSvBrexit Dec 28
This is alarming. More large contracts for privatisation of NHS management

https://www.ft.com/content/408bcd74-18bb-11e5-8201-cbdb03d71480



stockwellcat. said:


> So tell me you asked for references. You still haven't told me which ones you require and what for? :Hilarious


Have an educated guess which one Its blindingly obvious.

A few FACTS for you. Its the poorest countries which take in the by far the most refugees. The UKs contribution is an embarassement.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> ... But let's not worry about South America and Japan trade deals, we can always make one with our bestest friends, the USA ...
> 
> *Donald Trump's offer of a "quick, massive bilateral trade deal" won't be possible if Theresa May's Brexit deal is backed by Parliament, the US ambassador to the UK has warned.*
> 
> Woody Johnson told Radio 4's Today programme such a arrangement could lead to an "exciting future" for the UK.
> 
> *But that's only if Mrs May's withdrawal agreement does not succeed, he said.*​
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46720323
> 
> So the best deal May can get leaves us worse off vis a vis EU trade, and with no USA trade deal to replace it.
> 
> But we're not going to let the People change their minds if they want to. They should have known this 30 months ago, shouldn't they?


We are trying to get deals with Africa. The Chinese are our main competitors there. What the Chinese are getting away with is scandalous actually, but that's not brexit. We aren't entirely great either.


----------



## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> Please get some perspective.


I see you're back and that your Christmas break has done nothing to stop you being patronising (turns up music from Twilight Zone).


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> 100 attempted to cross the English Channel during the Christmas period


Port of Dover in fact had to close on Christmas day (I was on the M25 and saw all the warnings for anyone heading that way).


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386001


No, could you put up a link?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> - we could solve the homeless crisis PLUS do our bit to help refugees.


So what's the solution?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> a hundred times


If not more!!


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> @noushka05 You say that in the U.K. there are thousands homeless, people dying on our streets, people using food banks, children going hungry. A housing crisis. A crisis in the NHS. Brexit about to cause mass job layoffs and poverty. Yet we should take on people getting on boats in France, paying thousands to people smugglers, take them in and help them? They said that the French treat them badly and that's why they aren't staying there, or any other Eu country. They shouldn't be desperate by the time they get to Calais. They're in the Eu, which is more than we'll be in a few months.
> 
> I had huge sympathy for the Syrian refugees fleeing Syria. I felt that all Eu governments including Britain's should do everything they can to help these people and bring about peace, instead warmongering in the area. However, people who are already in Europe, need to abide by the laws and rules of Europe. Getting on dinghies in France to try to cross to Britain in the middle of winter, is dangerous, foolish, illegal and unnecessary.
> 
> Maybe you missed links to suggested hows and whys? Yes it's from the bbc, but has also been reported elsewhere.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-46296249
> 
> Welfare needs to reach needy people promptly and efficiently. I would agree that is an issue. We have already discussed this to death a hundred times on petforums.


Absolutely . That's what I was trying to say but you said it more succinctly .

France is 212, 000 sq miles approx and has an estimated population of 65 million.
the UK is 93,000 sq miles approx and has an estimated population of 67 million .

https://www.worldometers.info/
ETA population per square mile

France 308
UK 713


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I see you're back and that your Christmas break has done nothing to stop you being patronising (turns up music from Twilight Zone).


Feels a bit like being hit by a ........










Retreats to underground nuclear bomb proof bunker!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386001


I haven't seen this either. I think it is just those that are anti conservative making up rubbish again and scaremongering:

You can see for yourself that there is nothing on the Home Offices twitter account saying what is being implied: https://mobile.twitter.com/ukhomeoffice?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

and nothing on their facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/ukhomeofficegov/


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> We are trying to get deals with Africa. The Chinese are our main competitors there. What the Chinese are getting away with is scandalous actually, but that's not brexit. We aren't entirely great either.


Through the EU we already have free trade deals with most African countries. (I posted the map showing that some weeks ago.) There is little, if anything, to be done there that requires leaving the EU.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Retreats to underground nuclear bomb proof bunker!


 . . . and the ignore button!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Through the EU we already have free trade deals with most African countries. (I posted the map showing that some weeks ago.) There is little to be done there that requires leaving the EU.


It might not require leaving the Eu, but there's more to it. I was thinking too about the earlier post about recolonising and setting up a new Empire. Trouble is the post I was thinking of is well buried and I can't remember who posted it and linked the article. I was watching a live feed about the recent goings on in Somalia and what's happening in Africa. We're pretty far removed from it and it doesn't really get much of a mention.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> . . . and the ignore button!


Couldn't possibly do that, 'cos I might miss something!


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> I haven't seen this either. I think it is just those that are anti conservative making up rubbish again and scaremongering:
> 
> You can see for yourself that there is nothing on the Home Offices twitter account saying what is being implied: https://mobile.twitter.com/ukhomeoffice?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
> 
> and nothing on their facebook page: https://m.facebook.com/ukhomeofficegov/


Here's a link (previously posted) that includes the nasty little video insulting Eu citizens and letting them know they aren't wanted. How dare it be upbeat.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...for-settled-status-after-brexit-a4026421.html


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It might not require leaving the Eu, but there's more to it. I was thinking too about the earlier post about recolonising and setting up a new Empire. Trouble is the post I was thinking of is well buried and I can't remember who posted it and linked the article. I was watching a live feed about the recent goings on in Somalia and what's happening in Africa. We're pretty far removed from it and it doesn't really get much of a mention.


I'm afraid you've lost me there! What's the Brexit connection?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm afraid you've lost me there! What's the Brexit connection?


There isn't one, well only one relating to what 'they' will probably get up to if we leave with no deal. Which is what I said in the last reply. You mentioned talk of post brexit trade deals, I was saying don't forget Africa.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Thank you KK! I suspect the number of people who missed me was down to single figures of 1!
> 
> The tories will definitely repeal the hunting ban at the first opportunity. May claims to be a christian, yet her cruelty knows no bounds. If there is a god she will be banished to hell.


I really miss Goblin too. Would be nice to receive a post or two from him or her.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Illegally noushka. Trying to jump the queue of people who are legally trying to get over here. So why should they be allowed to jump the queue? They can choose which ever country they wish to live in on the continent until their asylum application is heard here in the UK.
> 
> I have no objection if the migrants go through the proper channels but not when the try to enter the UK illegally. Some even tried hijacking a cargo vessel over Christmas and the Special Boat Service stormed the boat. They are illegal noushka.


Illegal?? They are desperate human beings. Have a heart SWC! One day you might find yourself in a similar position. Think how YOU'D want to be treated.



Elles said:


> @noushka05 You say that in the U.K. there are thousands homeless, people dying on our streets, people using food banks, children going hungry. A housing crisis. A crisis in the NHS. Brexit about to cause mass job layoffs and poverty. Yet we should take on people getting on boats in France, paying thousands to people smugglers, take them in and help them? They said that the French treat them badly and that's why they aren't staying there, or any other Eu country. They shouldn't be desperate by the time they get to Calais. They're in the Eu, which is more than we'll be in a few months.
> 
> I had huge sympathy for the Syrian refugees fleeing Syria. I felt that all Eu governments including Britain's should do everything they can to help these people and bring about peace, instead warmongering in the area. However, people who are already in Europe, need to abide by the laws and rules of Europe. Getting on dinghies in France to try to cross to Britain in the middle of winter, is dangerous, foolish, illegal and unnecessary.
> 
> Maybe you missed links to suggested hows and whys? Yes it's from the bbc, but has also been reported elsewhere.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-46296249
> 
> I've seen the article/meme from schools sending children home, maybe you posted it before. There's more to it than Tory policy unfortunately. Plus hungry, abused children tend to lie to protect their families. Having had school breakfast and dinner they will feel able to cope for another day. Crying about having to go home would be very odd. That's not what children tend to do ime. I hate to say it, but a school governor isn't in school. They do a few hours a month related to the running of the school, sitting on a committee. So if this person is genuine, it would be in a different role.
> 
> If children are starving, social services need contacting and the families given help and advice, or the children taken into care. A big problem is that many people today have no idea how to feed their families, education could help here. The saying about teaching a man to fish is very relevant. Oven chips and ketchup isn't a meal, nor is a macdonalds burger. Our poor are expected to have fridge, washing machine, microwave etc as a bare minimum, they need help with shopping and cooking, not more money.
> 
> Welfare needs to reach needy people promptly and efficiently. I would agree that is an issue. We have already discussed this to death a hundred times on petforums.


We KNOW tory austerity is responsible for the homelessness crisis. the spike in poverty, the foodbank epidemic. People can't pay their rents Elles thanks to changes in the benefit system. And many of them are in work! Please do some research. As we have created millions of refugees do you not think its our moral duty to help as many as we can?

Brexit is already costing us billions - personally I would prefer to spend all that money on NHS, our vulnerable & refugees.



MilleD said:


> Were there many children in the latest tranche coming over? Or is that distorted by the news agencies too?


I've no idea. I just know they are desperate. Imagine how you would feel in their shoes though MD x


Calvine said:


> I see you're back and that your Christmas break has done nothing to stop you being patronising (turns up music from Twilight Zone).


Yes, its much better to stay in your bubble & deny reality. But reality will bite you on the ass soon when we leave the EU - you'll be forced to face it then .



Calvine said:


> Port of Dover in fact had to close on Christmas day (I was on the M25 and saw all the warnings for anyone heading that way).


Just wait till we brexit.




















MilleD said:


> So what's the solution?


The solution is to reverse the governments dire austerity policies. To properly fund our NHS & welfare system. To build affordable social housing To stop selling arms to despotic regimes like Saudi - we are complicit in the humanitarian crisis over there. To take in our fair share of refugees.

We can find £billions for brexit - we can find £billions to help people.

All the crisis we are witnessing is down to neoliberalism.



kimthecat said:


> Absolutely . That's what I was trying to say but you said it more succinctly .
> 
> France is 212, 000 sq miles approx and has an estimated population of 65 million.
> the UK is 93,000 sq miles approx and has an estimated population of 67 million .
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/
> ETA population per square mile
> 
> France 308
> UK 713


For goodness sake Kim. We wont really sink you know? We have plenty of room to accommodate our fair share of refugees. And we owe it to them! What a mean minded country we have become. Well done tories!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Illegal?? They are desperate human beings. Have a heart SWC! One day you might find yourself in a similar position. Think how YOU'D want to be treated.


They aren't desperate Noushka. If they were they would stay in the first safe country they arrived in. What they are doing is illegal, trying to enter the UK not through the proper channels. They are safe on the continent. I do have a heart. Send them back to France and get them to apply through the proper channels and wait like everyone else waiting to enter the UK legally.

End of discussion as we have discussed this before in a closed thread.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> . The Chinese are our main competitors there. What the Chinese are getting away with is scandalous actually, but that's not brexit. We aren't entirely great either.


Did you actually glean anything from The Shock Doctrine?  Anything about China?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> They aren't desperate Noushka. If they were they would stay in the first safe country they arrived it. What they are doing is illegal, trying to enter the UK not through the proper channels. They are safe on the continent. I do have a heart. Send them back to France and get them to apply through the proper channels and wait like everyone else waiting to enter the UK legally.


What a terrible thing to say. So why are they 'risking their lives' to get here then?? For a laugh!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> They aren't desperate Noushka. If they were they would stay in the first safe country they arrived in. What they are doing is illegal, trying to enter the UK not through the proper channels. They are safe on the continent. I do have a heart. Send them back to France and get them to apply through the proper channels and wait like everyone else waiting to enter the UK legally.
> 
> End of discussion as we have discussed this before in a closed thread.


Its a good time to bring this brilliant piece by Frankie Boyle out again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> What a terrible thing to say. So why are they 'risking their lives' to get here then?? For a laugh!


What is wrong with France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Brussels etc. Oh they don't get offered social security benefits without having to pay into the system first, homes on social housing and free health care like they do in the UK.

Last count I saw in November 2018 Noushka 320,000 people are homeless in the UK according to shelter. 449 people died in the last year on the streets. So we cannot house these homeless people on our streets. How are we going to house migrants illegally entering the UK?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> What a terrible thing to say. So why are they 'risking their lives' to get here then?? For a laugh!


I can't see the exchange you are having on the obvious subject of refugees - I assume it's the apparently increased numbers of Iranians crossing the Channel - but I can't see much of a link to Brexit, except that I would imagine the French might have less incentive to prevent departures from their shores.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see the exchange you are having on the obvious subject of refugees - I assume it's the apparently increased numbers of Iranians crossing the Channel - but I can't see much of a link to Brexit, except that I would imagine the French might have less incentive to prevent departures from their shores.


Blame KK. He brought it up saying the Conservatives are using the recent crossings as a distraction from Brexit and it went on from there.


----------



## Magyarmum

@ noushka05 said For goodness sake Kim. We have plenty of room to accommodate our fair share of refugees. And we owe it to them! What a mean minded country we have become. Well done tories!

Isn't it amazing how we are the only mean minded country in the EU when it suits certain people?

https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...-matteo-salvini-libya-italy-germany-refugees/

https://www.euronews.com/2018/11/29/italy-s-new-security-decree-clamps-down-on-immigration

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018...fugees-migrants-entering-180920052153238.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Meany Britain for enforcing it's laws. :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I can't see the exchange you are having on the obvious subject of refugees - I assume it's the apparently increased numbers of Iranians crossing the Channel - but I can't see much of a link to Brexit, except that I would imagine the French might have less incentive to prevent departures from their shores.


I agree with KK & David Lammy, Arnie.
*
Make no mistake, this is not in response to genuine concern for human life. This is @sajidjavid imitating Donald Trump's "migrant caravan" manufactured emergency to whip up fear before the Brexit vote. Desperate and cynical.*



Magyarmum said:


> @ noushka05 said For goodness sake Kim. We have plenty of room to accommodate our fair share of refugees. And we owe it to them! What a mean minded country we have become. Well done tories!
> 
> Isn't it amazing how we are the only mean minded country in the EU when it suits certain people?
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...-matteo-salvini-libya-italy-germany-refugees/
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2018/11/29/italy-s-new-security-decree-clamps-down-on-immigration
> 
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018...fugees-migrants-entering-180920052153238.html


You're engaging in whataboutism now. Do you think I wouldn't condemn ALL countries which treat refugees like ****? but we're talking about MY country.

I'm surprised you havent included the country you reside in.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> What is wrong with France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Brussels etc. Oh they don't get offered social security benefits without having to pay into the system first, homes on social housing and free health care like they do in the UK.
> 
> Last count I saw in November 2018 Noushka 320,000 people are homeless in the UK according to shelter. 449 people died in the last year on the streets. So we cannot house these homeless people on our streets. How are we going to house migrants illegally entering the UK?


The tories love people like you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The tories love people like you.


Not so long ago noushka you was banging on about the homeless trying to link it to Brexit.

I see your insults just don't cease.

Please give it a rest.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> *Blame KK*. He brought it up saying the Conservatives are using the recent crossings as a distraction from Brexit and it went on from there.


Ok. 

Though I must say I'm not dismissing @noushka05 's point about Javid. Cynically, he's after the top job, and an opportunity has fallen into his lap to look decisive and appeal to populist opinion.

Nothing either caused nor solved by Brexit, though, should it happen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

There. That has sorted that out.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> What is wrong with France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Brussels etc. Oh they don't get offered social security benefits without having to pay into the system first, homes on social housing and free health care like they do in the UK.
> 
> Last count I saw in November 2018 Noushka 320,000 people are homeless in the UK according to shelter. 449 people died in the last year on the streets. So we cannot house these homeless people on our streets. How are we going to house migrants illegally entering the UK?


For a start target the gang masters who arrange this sort of operation, not the refugees themselves. I find it a bit too co-incidental this has happened just after Christmas and shortly before the vote on May's deal.

Typical tactics to suggest the inability to house "our" white British people let alone illegal immigrants. Why do you think that is?

Is it the fault of immigration and the EU? Look around you!

People under the age of 25 are no longer eligible for Housing Benefit under this government. Many of these people are in work and on zero hour contracts for Christ's sake.

With extortionately high rents thanks to the lack of social housing, having been deprived of HB and not getting benefits they'll face eviction.

The blame is 100% on THIS government, NOT the EU, not refugees.

Poverty and hardship was rife in the 1930s, how many immigrants were they then? The Jarrow marchers were all white British from what I recall.

Think...


----------



## stockwellcat.

This thread is getting silly and going around in circles as we seem to have already diacussed everything re-discussed today so far.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> For a start target the gang masters who arrange this sort of operation, not the refugees themselves. I find it a bit too co-incidental this has happened just after Christmas and shortly before the vote on May's deal.


It has been happening all year (2018) but there has been an increase since the beginning of December and that is why it hit the news. Nothing sinister. They are trying to target the gangs. But the illegal migrants have no ligitimate right of entry into the UK via the method they are using. They have to go through the legal channels.


----------



## rona

We are such a bad country with such a bad attitude towards immigrants, that 1000s of people are willing to sell their souls and risk their lives to get here................even more so now because of Brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The blame is 100% on THIS government, NOT the EU, not refugees.


No it is not.
Other EU countries are doing everything they can to make the illegal migrants unwelcome and telling them to go back home. The UK is pretty soft in comparison.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> We are such a bad country with such a bad attitude towards immigrants, that 1000s of people are willing to sell their souls and risk their lives to get here................even more so now because of Brexit


 So many of them in the Channel on Christmas day they had to close the Port of Dover!! So UK still has something to offer, it would seem.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> No it is not.
> Other EU countries are doing everything they can to make the illegal migrants unwelcome and telling them to go back home. The UK is pretty soft in comparison.


But you mustn't say that because according to .......



noushka05 said:


> I
> 
> You're engaging in whataboutism now. Do you think I wouldn't condemn ALL countries which treat refugees like ****? but we're talking about MY country.
> 
> I'm surprised you havent included the country you reside in.


you're only allowed to talk about the UK - other countries DON'T COUNT, you idiot!

Except the country which I "reside" in as she keeps telling me!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> But you mustn't say that because according to .......
> 
> you're only allowed to talk about the UK - other countries DON'T COUNT, you idiot!
> 
> Except the country which I "reside" in as she keeps telling me!


Oops. Stockwellcat climbs back into his cave. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

There should be little to no homelessness in the U.K. Our taxes should be building small, affordable homes for those in need of it. In or out of the Eu. This would be domestic policy.

Yes they should be targeting the gang masters too. They are and have. These people have been arrested and prosecuted for it, but it's very lucrative, so more pop up. We cannot currently offer money, housing, work, medical care, schooling, the basic infrastructure for unlimited numbers of human beings in the U.K. We have to work on it. We should not encourage and support illegal immigration via smugglers in the channel. That is not to say we shouldn't go out of our way to assist those in need, even more so when policy here has led to displacement and desperation. It would appear that this is not currently the case.

I'm feeling under attack for my moral and ethical stance, I'm sure others here are too.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/most-people-consider-themselves-to-be-morally-superior/

"This self-enhancement effect is most profound for moral characteristics. While we generally cast ourselves in a positive light relative to our peers, above all else we believe that we are more just, more trustworthy, more moral than others. This self-righteousness can be destructive because it reduces our willingness to cooperate or compromise, creates distance between ourselves and others, and can lead to intolerance or even violence. Feelings of moral superiority may play a role in political discord, social conflict, and even terrorism."


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> We are such a bad country with such a bad attitude towards immigrants, that 1000s of people are willing to sell their souls and risk their lives to get here................even more so now because of Brexit


According to an expert on the BBC news this morning, the main reason those who are choosing Britain are doing so is that they have family here. The second is that they speak English.

I'm not sure we can conclude from the that research that there is nothing wrong with the UK or its attitude towards refugees / immigrants.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> So many of them in the Channel on Christmas day they had to close the Port of Dover!! So UK still has something to offer, it would seem.


Yes, as above - it offers relatives and a language they understand! 

(Just repeating what I heard, though; I haven't done any particular research into this.)


----------



## Elles

It is utterly infuriating, when I have posted innumerable times about how I agree that current policy and the unprepared roll out of universal credit, creates unnecessary suffering and is scandalous, to be told "do some research @Elles "

I linked some wonderful programmes bbc2 made about the refugee crisis. Being able to speak English was one of the reasons their refugees gave. It's really understandable, to want to go to a country where you may have a bit of an idea what people around you are talking about.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Not so long ago noushka you was banging on about the homeless trying to link it to Brexit.
> 
> I see your insults just don't cease.
> 
> Please give it a rest.


Where have I been trying to link the homeless to brexit?  I've said time & again the homelessness crisis is down to tory austerity, of course brexit will exacerbate the crisis as we will have far less money & no protection at all from disaster capitalists.

Support for the tory party is drummed up by stoking fear & scapegoating other entities like the EU. Fear of foreigners, fear of immigrants, fear of refugees, fear of those 'commies' in the labour party. The tories campaign is almost an entirely fear concocted campaign, which seeks to implement the agenda of a wealthy few.

Austerity is the transfer of public money into private pockets - but look over there at those refugees & migrants sapping our NHS of resources & putting pressure on our public services & housing stocks & taking our jobs. Trump & the Republicans use the exact same tactics to garner support from the working classes. How the corporate elite & the billionaire class must be laughing.


stockwellcat. said:


> Meany Britain for enforcing it's laws. :Hilarious


Do you find the dehumanising language the government uses funny as well?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> For a start target the gang masters who arrange this sort of operation, not the refugees themselves. I find it a bit too co-incidental this has happened just after Christmas and shortly before the vote on May's deal.


So now you are saying that the government is in cahoots with the people smugglers?

This is getting more ridiculous by the day..


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> If they was they would set up home in the first safe country they land in, in the EU


And they would bring their women, children and elderly parents with them as the Jews did when they fled Nazi Germany. Quite often the men sent their families first and hoped to stay alive long enough to follow them.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> This is getting more ridiculous by the day..


I second that . . . I suspect this thread may be on the way out as it is so farcical.


----------



## noushka05

*Seb Dance MEP*‏Verified account @SebDance
_This is what happens when we call refugees "migrants", people like Farage say day-in and day-out refugees are responsible for the problems we face, and then outlets like The Sun, Mail etc pay racists to write polemics describing refugees as "cockroaches" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>_

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/
_
*Caller Tells Tom Watson To "Let The Children Drown" In English Channel*

_
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/caller-tells-tom-watson-let-children-drown/


----------



## Elles

People live the lives they live. They are more likely to be influenced by direct experience than by what someone tells them. You seem terribly afraid of the tories @noushka05 . Why do you believe that other people on petforums are unnecessarily afraid of foreigners, refugees, commies, etc but you haven't fallen for it? Conservative MPs themselves have stood up to Theresa May, it's a conservative MP who's suggesting interfering with tax collection to get a second referendum. The majority of conservative MPs are pro Eu.

I think a lot of people vote Conservative, not because of fears, but rather because they want to have the opportunity to be one of the wealthy few and make it the wealthy many.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Seb Dance MEP*‏Verified account @SebDance
> _This is what happens when we call refugees "migrants", people like Farage say day-in and day-out refugees are responsible for the problems we face, and then outlets like The Sun, Mail etc pay racists to write polemics describing refugees as "cockroaches" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> *Caller Tells Tom Watson To "Let The Children Drown" In English Channel*
> 
> _
> https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/caller-tells-tom-watson-let-children-drown/


Perhaps this was a set-up to get people enraged in the other direction?


----------



## noushka05

_If they was they would set up home in the first safe country they land in, in the EU_



Calvine said:


> And they would bring their women, children and elderly parents with them as the Jews did when they fled Nazi Germany. Quite often the men sent their families first and hoped to stay alive to follow them


How convenient we're an island surrounded by water



rona said:


> We are such a bad country with such a bad attitude towards immigrants, that 1000s of people are willing to sell their souls and risk their lives to get here................even more so now because of Brexit





Calvine said:


> So many of them in the Channel on Christmas day they had to close the Port of Dover!! So UK still has something to offer, it would seem.


Perhaps they think we're still a tolerant, welcoming people?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> *Seb Dance MEP*‏Verified account @SebDance
> _This is what happens when we call refugees "migrants", people like Farage say day-in and day-out refugees are responsible for the problems we face, and then outlets like The Sun, Mail etc pay racists to write polemics describing refugees as "cockroaches" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> *Caller Tells Tom Watson To "Let The Children Drown" In English Channel*
> 
> _
> https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/caller-tells-tom-watson-let-children-drown/


Already seen and heard this. The person phoning in would have taken the same stance without Farage etc. Some people can't be helped. There are bad people in the World. Who do you think the refugees are running away from? It's not aliens.


----------



## Arnie83

Meanwhile, back at Brexit, there are reported cross-party discussions about delaying Brexit in the case of May's Deal being voted down.

The pound has risen over a cent against both the dollar and the euro as a result.

Here's hoping.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Is it me or is this thread starting show desperation from remainers? 
All that seems to be happening is old arguments are being regurgitated.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> It's not aliens.


We have our share of those on PF. Talking of which, can @noushka05 please note I now have her on ignore (again) as I am totally pissed off with her singling out every single post I make and for her patronising know-it-all attitude.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Already seen and heard this. The person phoning in would have taken the same stance without Farage etc. Some people can't be helped. There are bad people in the World. Who do you think the refugees are running away from? It's not aliens.





MilleD said:


> Perhaps this was a set-up to get people enraged in the other direction?


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> old arguments are being regurgitated.


It's weird. If I start a thread it gets closed within days as it is ''going round in circles'' . . . but this goes on ad nauseam.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> We have our share of those on PF. Talking of which, can @noushka05 please note I now have her on ignore (again) as I am totally pissed off with her singling out every single post I make and for her patronising know-it-all attitude.


And I'll still address your argument if I believe you to be wrong:Smuggrin


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


>


Yeah, I won't be watching that.

The problem with pointing out one man's idiotic opinion on some radio show is that it's just that. One man's opinion.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> And I'll still address your argument if I believe you to be wrong:Smuggrin


You know she can't see you right?

Oops, sorry @Calvine

That was naughty....


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> It's weird. If I start a thread it gets closed within days as it is ''going round in circles'' . . . but this goes on ad nauseam.


The subject of brexit will go on for years because if we leave the EU the consequences will extensive & touch many areas of our lives.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Yeah, I won't be watching that.
> 
> The problem with pointing out one man's idiotic opinion on some radio show is that it's just that. One man's opinion.


Its factual not based on someones opinion.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m desperate for one benefit of Brexit that isn’t a buzzword.


----------



## noushka05

Snoringbear said:


> I'm desperate for one benefit of Brexit that isn't a buzzword.


Blue passport?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Meanwhile, back at Brexit, there are reported cross-party discussions about delaying Brexit in the case of May's Deal being voted down.
> 
> The pound has risen over a cent against both the dollar and the euro as a result.
> 
> Here's hoping.


Liam Fox saying yesterday if parliament don`t vote for Mays deal it will be 50-50 if Brexit goes ahead. I thought that was rather odd coming from a cabinet member when we have been told it`s May`s deal or no deal, obviously he isn`t so sure about that!


----------



## Elles

I think we were doing ok, until we got bombarded with a load of rants today. We can disagree with each other without being linked to some guy who wants children to drown in the channel. The clear implication that it’s the kind of attitude people have if they voted to leave the Eu, voted conservative, or have reservations about immigration.

I started to watch Stephen Fry. Does he not know that we also had access to pro Eu propaganda and Katie Hopkins was a waste of space. Dragging up that racist, vicious, publicity seeker as though her opinion and that of others with similar views led over 17million to vote to leave the Eu. Even if it had and it really hadn’t, what will happen when we leave the Eu? Will we put immigrants in cages? Shoot them, or drown them maybe? Will we march across Europe killing all who disagree? No. We’ll leave the Eu. 

The fact is nasty Katie Hopkins said what she said, the posters said what they said, the Sun newspaper said what it said. What isn’t fact is Stephen Fry’s assessment of it. That’s opinion. If he thinks it’s what gets people to vote to leave the Eu, why put it out there again? If he thinks it’s shameful and brexiteers should be ashamed, why would they be, if that’s what made them vote the way they did in the first place.

No, it’s exactly because he knows that racism and hatred wasn’t behind the brexit vote for the huge majority, that he’s bringing it up. To shame people into proving they aren’t like that, don’t want to be associated with it and vote remain next time. I didn’t watch very far in, but I would expect my final paragraph to be covered in there somewhere.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Is it me or is this thread starting show desperation from remainers?
> All that seems to be happening is old arguments are being regurgitated.


Yes indeedy.


----------



## Elles

I really want to see convincing arguments to stay in the Eu. For my personal situation and family, staying in is a no brainer, but I have to see it as beneficial for the majority, not just me. So far I can’t see it. Bringing up old accusations of racism etc. isn’t even slightly convincing.

Not only that, videos and articles that generalise about brexiteers, insidiously or obviously linking them to racism, hate speech, xenophobia and a ton of other unsavoury opinions, or dangerous members of the human race, what is that in itself? It’s Dehumanising and generalising brexiteers. Brexiteers as individuals know why they voted to leave the Eu. They don’t need Remainers telling them why. So the video narrated by mr fry is clearly aimed at Remain voters and incites the kind of disgust that Noushka and KK feel for their fellow Brits who voted differently to the way they did. It tells them that people voted to leave the Eu because of racist and nazi propaganda and of course people acting as racists or nazis are to be abhorred, giving justification for expressing their anti brexiteer/Tory rants. This kind of thing is just as responsible for splitting the country.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think we were doing ok, until we got bombarded with a load of rants today. We can disagree with each other without being linked to some guy who wants children to drown in the channel. The clear implication that it's the kind of attitude people have if they voted to leave the Eu, voted conservative, or have reservations about immigration.
> 
> I started to watch Stephen Fry. Does he not know that we also had access to pro Eu propaganda and Katie Hopkins was a waste of space. Dragging up that racist, vicious, publicity seeker as though her opinion and that of others with similar views led over 17million to vote to leave the Eu. Even if it had and it really hadn't, what will happen when we leave the Eu? Will we put immigrants in cages? Shoot them, or drown them maybe? Will we march across Europe killing all who disagree? No. We'll leave the Eu.
> 
> The fact is nasty Katie Hopkins said what she said, the posters said what they said, the Sun newspaper said what it said. What isn't fact is Stephen Fry's assessment of it. That's opinion. If he thinks it's what gets people to vote to leave the Eu, why put it out there again? If he thinks it's shameful and brexiteers should be ashamed, why would they be, if that's what made them vote the way they did in the first place.
> 
> No, it's exactly because he knows that racism and hatred wasn't behind the brexit vote for the huge majority, that he's bringing it up. To shame people into proving they aren't like that, don't want to be associated with it and vote remain next time. I didn't watch very far in, but I would expect my final paragraph to be covered in there somewhere.


It's because SOME people have been influenced over the years and during the run-up to the referendum into thinking that the EU is the cause of so many things that people see are bad, and that they force the UK to do things against its will which are harmful. The EU has been built into the big bad undemocratic, corrupt empire. And people like Farage played on some people's discomfort with 'the other' and sought to tie that into out EU membership.

As you say, many people saw and see through the nonsense, and still voted to Leave it for reasons best known to themselves. But others were influenced and still believe some of it. And some voted to Leave because of it. Until we have actually left the EU, and while there is a chance that the decision can be reversed, it is surely important to keep pointing out the lies and myths so that a more informed decision might be made. Whether it would be a different decision is moot.

In fact I think it is important to do so whether we leave or not. Facts are important, even if they become known too late to make a difference.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> Liam Fox saying yesterday if parliament don`t vote for Mays deal it will be 50-50 if Brexit goes ahead. I thought that was rather odd coming from a cabinet member when we have been told it`s May`s deal or no deal, obviously he isn`t so sure about that!


I think it is commonly recognised that the options offered by May are a long way short of the full set. She is still trying to scare people into supporting her deal by threatening them with something everyone knows would be extremely bad for the people who live here. I'm surprised Fox was so candid, but it was welcome. A shame he hasn't admitted yet that his wonderful mooted trade deals are pie in the sky!


----------



## Elles

No it’s not important to keep pointing out anything from past endeavours. I think we all know by now that some people read racist propaganda and voted to leave the Eu. The kind of people who if they aren’t reading it, are writing it and spouting it and would have voted to leave the Eu regardless. We can move on from those kind of people.

The Eu is a problem. It’s a bureaucratic juggernaut that a lot of people do very nicely out of, thankyouverymuch. That’s what you need to get past. And no one is going to do that by accusing brexiteers of racism by proxy.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No it's not important to keep pointing out anything from past endeavours. I think we all know by now that some people read racist propaganda and voted to leave the Eu. The kind of people who if they aren't reading it, are writing it and spouting it and would have voted to leave the Eu regardless. We can move on from those kind of people.
> 
> The Eu is a problem. It's a bureaucratic juggernaut that a lot of people do very nicely out of, thankyouverymuch. That's what you need to get past. And no one is going to do that by accusing brexiteers of racism by proxy.


You don't think the truth is important? So long as it is denied, it should surely be defended.

And you don't think that a new referendum, should there be one, would be better for people being more accurately informed?

I would have thought both those were quite uncontroversial.

Not sure I've understood your last paragraph correctly - are you suggesting that most (?) people voted to leave the EU because they think it is a bureaucratic juggernaut that employs people?

And 'racism by proxy'? Is that the feeling that if one Leave supporter is accused of racism (not by me I would hasten to add) then by implication they are all so accused?


----------



## Elles

Yes @Arnie83 . It looks like I'm the only one who follows Noushka's links and videos, but that is exactly what a lot of them are doing imo. Accusations of Racism by proxy, inference, underlying accusation. Stirring up bad feelings towards someone just because they voted to leave the Eu.

We've already discussed many times why people may have voted to leave the Eu.

However, I'm giving you one example. That it's a bureaucratic juggernaut and not everyone agrees with what it spends it's money on. Why would 'a lot of people do very nicely out of it thankyouverymuch' imply only employees?

There are so many projects that I don't agree with that have Eu money behind them, there's too many to list. Imho from speaking to people that is the main problem that has to be overcome.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> So the video narrated by mr fry is clearly aimed at Remain voters and incites the kind of disgust that Noushka and KK feel for their fellow Brits who voted differently to the way they did. It tells them that people voted to leave the Eu because of racist and nazi propaganda and of course people acting as racists or nazis are to be abhorred, giving justification for expressing their anti brexiteer/Tory rants. This kind of thing is just as responsible for splitting the country.


Doesn't show pro EU in a very good light does it?
Might be these kind of associations that got many to vote out



Elles said:


> The Eu is a problem. It's a bureaucratic juggernaut that a lot of people do very nicely out of, thankyouverymuch. That's what you need to get past. And no one is going to do that by accusing brexiteers of racism by proxy.


Also protectionist, which has been proven even more over the last 2 years. It's not the inclusive club it tries to make out to be, it's elitist and dictatorial


----------



## stockwellcat.

Regarding the migrants crossing the English Channel. 2 Of the UK's largest Border Forces Patrol vessels are to patrol the waters around Kent and the UK Border Force is working closely with the French to return some of the migrants. The National Crime Agency is involved with what is going on. Savid Javid said it is not only about the human cost but it is also about protecting the British Borders.

The 2 large Border Force Cutter ships are currently on deployment abroad but have been recalled back to the UK. There will be more meetings in the coming days by the Home Office and various agencies to discuss how to further deal with this Major Incident.

https://news.sky.com/story/border-f...atrol-channel-amid-migrant-crossings-11595795


----------



## Magyarmum

Two interesting articles about refugee crossing the English Channel

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/31/britain-and-france-to-step-up-migrant-patrols-in-english-channel

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ebook-within-hours-drive-calais-less-than15k/


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yes @Arnie83 . It looks like I'm the only one who follows Noushka's links and videos, but that is exactly what a lot of them are doing imo. Accusations of Racism by proxy, inference, underlying accusation. Stirring up bad feelings towards someone just because they voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> We've already discussed many times why people may have voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> However, I'm giving you one example. That it's a bureaucratic juggernaut and not everyone agrees with what it spends it's money on. Why would 'a lot of people do very nicely out of it thankyouverymuch' imply only employees?
> 
> There are so many projects that I don't agree with that have Eu money behind them, there's too many to list. Imho from speaking to people that is the main problem that has to be overcome.


I'll give you one example how EU money is wasted!

About 4 years ago the EU funded the building of a new pig farm in our village. Included in the funding was a large four bedroomed house with terraces and a double garage which probably cost around £90 000 to build (much more in the UK).

Total waste of money because it's never been lived in!

You might also like to read these articles

https://www.access-info.org/article/27794

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-nearly-800bn-a-year-says-study-a6944436.html


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> And 'racism by proxy'? Is that the feeling that if one Leave supporter is accused of racism (not by me I would hasten to add) then by implication they are all so accused?


Not really ,
Its the general agreement between Remainers on Twitter and FB for example that all leavers are racist. I said to Goblin in a previous thread that voting Remain didn't mean that some Remainers weren''t racist and he agreed but then said that every one who voted Leave was racist because they couldnt give him a good reason for leaving. .


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Also protectionist, which has been proven even more over the last 2 years. It's not the inclusive club it tries to make out to be, it's elitist and dictatorial


I suspect I'm on Rona's ignore list for some reason, which I regret, but perhaps someone would mention this conclusion of the BBC's fact-checking service:

*Is the European Union a 'protectionist racket'?*

*Fairly liberal*
The conclusion is that the EU does indeed protect some of its producers, especially farmers, from outside competition, although the EU's single market means they are fully exposed to competition from within the EU.

The EU can't claim to be the world's freest trader, but on many measures it's toward the more liberal end of the spectrum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44291103​


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So now you are saying that the government is in cahoots with the people smugglers?
> 
> This is getting more ridiculous by the day..


I wasn't, but nothing would surprise me...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Or anyone???


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386095
> 
> 
> Or anyone???


Your obsession with Hitler and the Nazis is creepy . I sometimes wonder if you have a sneaking regard for them that you are trying to suppress.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yes @Arnie83 . It looks like I'm the only one who follows Noushka's links and videos, but that is exactly what a lot of them are doing imo. Accusations of Racism by proxy, inference, underlying accusation. Stirring up bad feelings towards someone just because they voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> We've already discussed many times why people may have voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> However, I'm giving you one example. That it's a bureaucratic juggernaut and not everyone agrees with what it spends it's money on. Why would 'a lot of people do very nicely out of it thankyouverymuch' imply only employees?
> 
> There are so many projects that I don't agree with that have Eu money behind them, there's too many to list. Imho from speaking to people that is the main problem that has to be overcome.


I don't think you are a typical voter. I think the vast majority of the 17 million leave voters, just like the vast majority of the 16 million who voted to remain, have not the faintest idea of the projects supported by EU money.

I do think that a great number of people formed their opinion of the EU based on what they have been told by politicians and newspapers over the last 4 decades. It is the falseness of that 'information' that I think is important to challenge.

If people wanted to vote to leave the EU because they don't like some of their projects then I don't have any problem with that view - assuming their knowledge of those projects is accurate, and I have no reason to think otherwise. But if they wanted to vote leave because of bendy bananas or truck wing mirrors or because of Abu Hamza's long-winded deportation, or claims that the EU is unusually corrupt or protectionist, then I will continue to post what facts I find.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386095
> 
> 
> Or anyone???


You keep reminding us of Hitler, Genocide, Fascism and Dictators and Germany under Nazism in the 1930's. Why? The UK has neither a dictator, is not under a fascist dictator and does not resemble nazi germany in the 1930's.

Do you have an obsession with these topics or secretly admire these things? It is coming across that way as you mention one if not all these things nearly on a daily basis.

I think it is very disrespectful to even consider describing the UK or May as one of these terrible times or evil people in history.

People are still alive who lived through these events in history and it is most certainly very disrespectful towards them. See it is no leave voter on here banging on about this it is remain voters.

I for one do not appreciate that you view all leave voters this way or the Government in such away or the UK's PM.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Your obsession with Hitler and the Nazis is creepy . I sometimes wonder if you have a sneaking regard for them that you are trying to suppress.


I was thinking something similar!

The problem is as I've pointed out before the reality would be so much different to what he imagines.

Perhaps a trip round Dachau or Auschwitz would do him a world of good


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Not really ,
> Its the general agreement between Remainers on Twitter and FB for example that all leavers are racist. I said to Goblin in a previous thread that voting Remain didn't mean that some Remainers weren''t racist and he agreed but then said that every one who voted Leave was racist because they couldnt give him a good reason for leaving. .


Anyone who thinks that all leavers are racist is an idiot, and only muddies the water for those who think that an intelligent discussion is useful.

The point I had in mind was that the 'debate' has descended into the tribalism that (undoubtedly) did give rise to a proportion of the Leave vote, and has been prevalent ever since, especially in the attacks by leading Brexiteers like Rees-Mogg, Farage, IDS etc.

For those who identify with a tribe an attack on one is an attack on them all, and that's what I see when some people respond to a point made about _some_ (even when specified as such) leavers / remainers by taking it personally.


----------



## Snoringbear

From my perspective there are similarities now in the UK with 1930’s. If you can’t see that then you’re pretty clueless.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *Anyone who thinks that all leavers are racist is an idiot*, and only muddies the water for those who think that an intelligent discussion is useful.


Well there are a couple of remainers on here who think exactly that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

If some remainers want a serious propper discussion they need to stop the insults, comparing the UK to Nazi Germany (as you haven't got a clue what it was like) etc and stop tarring all leave voters with the same brush. That would be a start. But until you are prepared to stop doing this I am ignoring you.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> From my perspective there are similarities now in the UK with 1930's.


Yes , like Labour's anti- Semitism .

I really dont want to see the Tories or Labour under Corbyn win the next general election.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> If some remainers want a serious propper discussion they need to stop the insults, comparing the UK to Nazi Germany (as you haven't got a clue what it was like) etc and stop tarring all leave voters with the same brush. That would be a start. But until you are prepared to stop doing this I am ignoring you.


My NY resolution is to stop wasting my time reading this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> My NY resolution is to stop wasting my time reading this thread.


Good point. 
I will make it my New Years resolution to stop wasting my time with this thread and get back to why I am on here and that is to talk about my pet and get and give advice and have fun with other members in the games area.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> You keep reminding us of Hitler, Genocide, Fascism and Dictators and Germany under Nazism in the 1930's. Why? The UK has neither a dictator, is not under a fascist dictator and does not resemble nazi germany in the 1930's.
> 
> Do you have an obsession with these topics or secretly admire these things? It is coming across that way as you mention one if not all these things nearly on a daily basis.
> 
> I think it is very disrespectful to even consider describing the UK or May as one of these terrible times or evil people in history.
> 
> People are still alive who lived through these events in history and it is most certainly very disrespectful towards them. See it is no leave voter on here banging on about this it is remain voters.
> 
> I for one do not appreciate that you view all leave voters this way or the Government in such away or the UK's PM.


I lived through all but one day of WW2 and remember things a young child should never know.

My mother was half Jewish and it was only after the war that I was told, had Hitler invaded and taken over the UK, her stepfather, a retired RSM would have shot us both rather than let us fall into the hands of the Nazis.

Quite frankly I find KK's constant racist remarks quite disgusting and totally inappropriate.

It just shows the depths some people will stoop to, to let their contempt of TM and the UK Government be known!


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> Yes , like Labour's anti- Semitism .
> 
> I really dont want to see the Tories or Labour under Corbyn win the next general election.


You fell for that one then.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> You fell for that one then.


Wow, just wow


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I lived through all but one day of WW2 and remember things a young child should never know.
> 
> My mother was half Jewish and it was only after the war that I was told, had Hitler invaded and taken over the UK, her stepfather, a retired RSM would have shot us both rather than let us fall into the hands of the Nazis.


Thank you for sharing your experience and pleanty of respect sent your way. My grandad faught against the Nazi and Mussolini's army (I have mentioned this previously) and saw things no one should see.


> Quite frankly I find KK's constant racist remarks quite disgusting and totally inappropriate.
> 
> It just shows the depths some people will stoop to, to let their contempt of TM and the UK Government be known!


This is what is putting me off this thread. It seems that this and various other things that are being said by remainers on this thread isn't very nice and comes across desperate. I will there for be keeping my new years resolution as described above. This will be the last few hours on this thread. Feel free to PM me if you want to.


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting interview on DW

https://www.dw.com/en/inside-europe-2019-european-forecast/av-46905672

and an interesting article

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-right-wing-populism-is-eus-elephant-in-the-room/a-46909084


----------



## Snoringbear

rona said:


> Wow, just wow


I'm not a labour voter or Corbyn fan, but feel free to explain why he's anti Semitic


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> to let their contempt of TM and the UK Government be known!


There is no comparison, absolutely none, is there? My (now retired) dentist was a genuine Jewish 'refugee' (as opposed to a 'migrant') from Nazi Germany (tho' he was born in Austria). His father realised what was happening and sent him and his mother and sister over here ahead of him before his assets were seized and, happily, he managed to join them later. But from what Peter told me, hardly any of the wider family survived. He spent a lot of time and money trying to trace them worldwide. He himself worked hard, had a Wimpole St dental practice and did much for charity. @Magyarmum: sorry you experienced this . . . so many people did and still found the strength to survive.


----------



## grumpy goby

Snoringbear said:


> I'm not a labour voter or Corbyn fan, but feel free to explain why he's anti Semitic


This opinion piece pretty much sums it up (written by a Jewish labour supporter)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjYiaTv88rfAhUDO7wKHbsiABkQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-britain.html&psig=AOvVaw2LYQEsAVaUg66wVd_jbGMN&ust=1546374449497634


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> You fell for that one then.


:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> I'm not a labour voter or Corbyn fan, but feel free to explain why he's anti Semitic


 Neither Rona nor I mentioned Corbyn was anti Semitic , I said the Labour party .
You fell for that one didn't you


----------



## stockwellcat.

grumpy goby said:


> This opinion piece pretty much sums it up (written by a Jewish labour supporter)
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjYiaTv88rfAhUDO7wKHbsiABkQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-britain.html&psig=AOvVaw2LYQEsAVaUg66wVd_jbGMN&ust=1546374449497634


I have supported Labour since I left school in 1991.
I cannot stand Corbyn or the front benchers in Labour under his leadership and have long ago turned my back on them. Corbyn is only after one thing and that is to cross off a to do task on his bucket list and that is to become PM. He was a back bench rebel that was pictured with many terrorist groups including Hamas and the IRA and became party leader not once but twice and now wants to achieve becoming PM as one of his last wishes.

I don't like him full stop.


----------



## grumpy goby

stockwellcat. said:


> I have supported Labour since I left school in 1991.
> I cannot stand Corbyn or the front benchers in Labour under his leadership and have long ago turned my back on them. Corbyn is only after one thing and that is to cross off a to do task on his bucket list and that is to become PM. He was a back bench rebel that was pictured with many terrorist groups including Hamas and the IRA and became party leader not once but twice and now wants to achieve becoming PM as one of his last wishes.
> 
> I don't like him full stop.


Can't say I hold much of an opinion of him on a personal level... I mean I think PM is on most politicians bucket list, I don't trust any Tory MPs to do anything but look after them and theirs...

I admire JCs passion and apparent genuine concern for those not in his immediate circle or interest group (I mean it's not like he ever needed a union or grew up on a council estate) - but can't say I believe his flavour of labour is particularly sustainable or good for the country as a whole... I disagree fundamentally with his brexit stance, although I understand it from a nationalisation of services POV, and his numerous "slip ups" regarding the Jewish community doesn't sit well with me.

I obviously can't vote in the U.K. anymore but if I were still there I don't think I could vote his way. I'm not sure where I would put my X in a GE these days.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy New Year everyone on the Brexit thread.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Happy New Year everyone on the Brexit thread.


Happy New Year to you too.


----------



## Elles

Happy New Year! :Singing

For a change and diversion, not Brexit, just Trump, but this recent parody made me laugh. A few rude words. @O2.0 might like this too.


----------



## O2.0

Elles said:


> Happy New Year! :Singing
> 
> For a change and diversion, not Brexit, just Trump, but this recent parody made me laugh. A few rude words. @O2.0 might like this too.


Ha ha! That did make me laugh  
I like Trevor Noah's roasts of Trump too


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I think we were doing ok, until we got bombarded with a load of rants today. We can disagree with each other without being linked to some guy who wants children to drown in the channel. The clear implication that it's the kind of attitude people have if they voted to leave the Eu, voted conservative, or have reservations about immigration.
> 
> I started to watch Stephen Fry. Does he not know that we also had access to pro Eu propaganda and Katie Hopkins was a waste of space. Dragging up that racist, vicious, publicity seeker as though her opinion and that of others with similar views led over 17million to vote to leave the Eu. Even if it had and it really hadn't, what will happen when we leave the Eu? Will we put immigrants in cages? Shoot them, or drown them maybe? Will we march across Europe killing all who disagree? No. We'll leave the Eu.
> 
> The fact is nasty Katie Hopkins said what she said, the posters said what they said, the Sun newspaper said what it said. What isn't fact is Stephen Fry's assessment of it. That's opinion. If he thinks it's what gets people to vote to leave the Eu, why put it out there again? If he thinks it's shameful and brexiteers should be ashamed, why would they be, if that's what made them vote the way they did in the first place.
> 
> No, it's exactly because he knows that racism and hatred wasn't behind the brexit vote for the huge majority, that he's bringing it up. To shame people into proving they aren't like that, don't want to be associated with it and vote remain next time. I didn't watch very far in, but I would expect my final paragraph to be covered in there somewhere.


You'll get no ranting from me, I'm here only to address the arguments. And you have missed the point. The entire leave campaign was based on whipping up nationalism, flag waving jingoism, lies - scapegoating the EU & migrants & fear of immigration. And many decent people fell for the propaganda that immigrants were the reason public services were at breaking point rather than the fact it was really due to government policies. All the prominent racists/far right groups supported brexit: Farage & Co, EDL, Britain First, BNP, National front, ERG, Le Penn, Wilders, Putin, Trump - Thomas Mair!. Lets not forget an MP was assassinated by a far right nationalist because of her passionate defence of the EU & immigration during the referendum campaign.

But I have never seen anyone suggest that everyone who voted leave is a racist - I have good friends & family who voted leave & they are definitely not racists - some did have concerns about immigration which they say influenced their vote, does that make them racist? NO.

Like the Trump campaign, the leave campaign was a xenophobic one & I observed this reason alone was enough for some to state they could never vote leave because it would mean being on the same side as the hate mongers & brexit would embolden the racists & hate crime would increase.

And here we are today...

*Hate crime surge linked to Brexit and 2017 terrorist attacks*
Offences more than doubled in five years, Home Office figures for England and Wales show

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> You'll get no ranting from me, I'm here only to address the arguments. And you have missed the point. The entire leave campaign was based on whipping up nationalism, flag waving jingoism, lies - scapegoating the EU & migrants & fear of immigration. And many decent people fell for the propaganda that immigrants were the reason public services were at breaking point rather than the fact it was really due to government policies. All the prominent racists/far right groups supported brexit: Farage & Co, EDL, Britain First, BNP, National front, ERG, Le Penn, Wilders, Putin, Trump - Thomas Mair!. Lets not forget an MP was assassinated by a far right nationalist because of her passionate defence of the EU & immigration during the referendum campaign.
> 
> But I have never seen anyone suggest that everyone who voted leave is a racist - I have good friends & family who voted leave & they are definitely not racists - some did have concerns about immigration which they say influenced their vote, does that make them racist? NO.
> 
> Like the Trump campaign, the leave campaign was a xenophobic one & I observed this reason alone was enough for some to state they could never vote leave because it would mean being on the same side as the hate mongers & brexit would embolden the racists & hate crime would increase.
> 
> And here we are today...
> 
> *Hate crime surge linked to Brexit and 2017 terrorist attacks*
> Offences more than doubled in five years, Home Office figures for England and Wales show
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales


Exactly right.

The very successful slogan 'Take back control' has at its root the message that foreigners have power over Britons. There is no suggestion in the phrase that it is a bad thing in terms of the imposed rules, just that 'they' are telling 'us' what to do. The calculation was that at an instinctive level that is so bad in itself that many will not even think to question it.

The next referendum - if there is one - will see a different 'them' identified - no doubt some sort of 'elite' in this country, with the foreign EU pulling the strings - trying to bully 'us'.

Simple, primaeval, and effective.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> You'll get no ranting from me, I'm here only to address the arguments. And you have missed the point. The entire leave campaign was based on whipping up nationalism, flag waving jingoism, lies - scapegoating the EU & migrants & fear of immigration. And many decent people fell for the propaganda that immigrants were the reason public services were at breaking point rather than the fact it was really due to government policies. All the prominent racists/far right groups supported brexit: Farage & Co, EDL, Britain First, BNP, National front, ERG, Le Penn, Wilders, Putin, Trump - Thomas Mair!. Lets not forget an MP was assassinated by a far right nationalist because of her passionate defence of the EU & immigration during the referendum campaign.
> 
> But I have never seen anyone suggest that everyone who voted leave is a racist - I have good friends & family who voted leave & they are definitely not racists - some did have concerns about immigration which they say influenced their vote, does that make them racist? NO.
> 
> Like the Trump campaign, the leave campaign was a xenophobic one & I observed this reason alone was enough for some to state they could never vote leave because it would mean being on the same side as the hate mongers & brexit would embolden the racists & hate crime would increase.
> 
> And here we are today...
> 
> *Hate crime surge linked to Brexit and 2017 terrorist attacks*
> Offences more than doubled in five years, Home Office figures for England and Wales show
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales


Well, October, but I get your meaning.

What they can't tell though is what was caused by the EU referendum and what was caused by the terrorist attacks I assume? Is there a split of victims by nationalities.

For instance, I wouldn't assume a hate crime committed on an Australian was due to Brexit. It just feels like they lump it all together to bump the figures.

And it's over 5 years, we only voted 2.5 ago.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> The very successful slogan 'Take back control' has at its root the message that foreigners have power over Britons. There is no suggestion in the phrase that it is a bad thing in terms of the imposed rules, just that 'they' are telling 'us' what to do. The calculation was that at an instinctive level that is so bad in itself that many will not even think to question it.
> 
> The next referendum - if there is one - will see a different 'them' identified - no doubt some sort of 'elite' in this country, with the foreign EU pulling the strings - trying to bully 'us'.
> 
> Simple, primaeval, and effective.


But again, effective on how many? 17 million people?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> But again, effective on how many? 17 million people?


To many "Take back Control" meant taking back control from Brussels, not from foreigners!


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> To many "Take back Control" meant taking back control from Brussels, not from foreigners!


Not according to some folk


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> You'll get no ranting from me, I'm here only to address the arguments. And you have missed the point. The entire leave campaign was based on whipping up nationalism, flag waving jingoism, lies - scapegoating the EU & migrants & fear of immigration. And many decent people fell for the propaganda that immigrants were the reason public services were at breaking point rather than the fact it was really due to government policies. All the prominent racists/far right groups supported brexit: Farage & Co, EDL, Britain First, BNP, National front, ERG, Le Penn, Wilders, Putin, Trump - Thomas Mair!. Lets not forget an MP was assassinated by a far right nationalist because of her passionate defence of the EU & immigration during the referendum campaign.
> 
> But I have never seen anyone suggest that everyone who voted leave is a racist - I have good friends & family who voted leave & they are definitely not racists - some did have concerns about immigration which they say influenced their vote, does that make them racist? NO.
> 
> Like the Trump campaign, the leave campaign was a xenophobic one & I observed this reason alone was enough for some to state they could never vote leave because it would mean being on the same side as the hate mongers & brexit would embolden the racists & hate crime would increase.
> 
> And here we are today...
> 
> *Hate crime surge linked to Brexit and 2017 terrorist attacks*
> Offences more than doubled in five years, Home Office figures for England and Wales show
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales


Well, if that's not a rant, I'm not sure what is!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Well, October, but I get your meaning.
> 
> What they can't tell though is what was caused by the EU referendum and what was caused by the terrorist attacks I assume? Is there a split of victims by nationalities.
> 
> For instance, I wouldn't assume a hate crime committed on an Australian was due to Brexit. It just feels like they lump it all together to bump the figures.
> 
> And it's over 5 years, we only voted 2.5 ago.


Do you dispute the Leave campaign, like the Trump campaign, ran a xenophobic campaign stoking fear of immigration? and can you not see how this divisive language by politicians might embolden racists?

https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-and-eu-referendum/

..



Magyarmum said:


> To many "Take back Control" meant taking back control from Brussels, not from foreigners!


Yes from Brussels. And like Make Britain Great Again/Make America great again 'Take back control' is just another vacuous slogan to whip nationalism.



Magyarmum said:


> Well, if that's not a rant, I'm not sure what is!


I could not have writen that any less ranty. I suspect its more about what I say, not how I say it.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Do you dispute the Leave campaign, like the Trump campaign, ran a xenophobic campaign stoking fear of immigration? and can you not see how this divisive language by politicians might embolden racists?
> 
> https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-and-eu-referendum/
> 
> ..


Why do you always answer with a question?

Best to drop down the 2nd claim on that link. The referendum doesn't tell the whole story. And yes, perhaps _ some_ people were whipped up - but how many out of 17 million??

It's again tarring all the leave voters with the same brush isn't it?


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> But again, effective on how many? 17 million people?


No. The only thing that links all 17 million is that they voted Leave. Nothing else.

But the influence of ages old tribal instinct did come into it for a very considerable number.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> No. The only thing that links all 17 million is that they voted Leave. Nothing else.
> 
> But the influence of ages old tribal instinct did come into it for a very considerable number.


Surely that's just an opinion though isn't it? Or have they all told you?


----------



## noushka05

The disaster capitalists dream. Anyone who cares about our NHS (environmental & social justice should oppose brexit.)

*Kevin Maguire*‏: J_eremy Hunt let the austerity cat out of the Tory bag by using Brexit to argue Britain should be like Singapore. The NHS and welfare state would need axing to cut UK 39% public spending of GDP to the Asian state's 16%_

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...r.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> To many "Take back Control" meant taking back control from Brussels, not from foreigners!


You really think so?

What's wrong with Brussels?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Why do you always answer with a question?
> 
> Best to drop down the 2nd claim on that link. The referendum doesn't tell the whole story. And yes, perhaps _ some_ people were whipped up - but how many out of 17 million??
> 
> It's again tarring all the leave voters with the same brush isn't it?


I try to answer questions aimed at me. The leave campaign was a an anti immigration campaign, it was predicted hate crime would rise because of it & it did! Of course we dont know 'how many' out of the 17 million, but we know that all the prominent racists & far right groups supported brexit. And an MP was murdered!

You are cherry picking MD.

*Claim*
Hate crimes spiked by 41%, following the EU referendum

*Conclusion*
Yes, the number of hate crimes recorded by the police in July 2016 was 41% higher in July 2016 than in July 2015. There was a sharp increase immediately after the EU referendum.


----------



## noushka05

*Andrew Adonis*‏: _All those non-disclosure agreements ministers forced companies to sign are hiding hundreds of scandals like the £100m for ferries from a company which has never run a ferry. All part of £4bn For Brexit preparations, paid for by the NHS from the austerity government_


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I try to answer questions aimed at me. The leave campaign was a an anti immigration campaign, it was predicted hate crime would rise because of it & it did! Of course we dont know 'how many' out of the 17 million, but we know that all the prominent racists & far right groups supported brexit. And an MP was murdered!
> 
> You are cherry picking MD.
> 
> *Claim*
> Hate crimes spiked by 41%, following the EU referendum
> 
> *Conclusion*
> Yes, the number of hate crimes recorded by the police in July 2016 was 41% higher in July 2016 than in July 2015. There was a sharp increase immediately after the EU referendum.


So are you!

*Claim*
The increase in reported hate crimes after the EU referendum was due to the way the crimes were perceived and reported, not the number of hate crimes actually being committed.

*Conclusion*
An increased tendency to report hate crime may explain part of the recent surge in hate crimes recorded by the police. It's a matter of judgement how much.

What I'm saying is that the whole of this is being attributed to the EU referendum and 17 million people apparently wanting to perform hate crimes. And I'm saying that isn't the whole picture.

And again - it's dumping all those 17 million folk in the same racist hating basket. And that isn't right.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Surely that's just an opinion though isn't it? Or have they all told you?


Unusually for me, yes it is. But at risk of sounding pompous, in this case it's very informed opinion from 40 years of studying and writing about evolution, tribalism and its effects on today's world.

Re Brexit specifically, and very briefly, the average voter, whether leave or remain, didn't and still doesn't have the faintest idea how the EU works so for the most part it wasn't dissatisfaction with any democratic deficit. The main reason identified both before and after the referendum was 'control of our borders'. A poll in September found that 40% of voters thought that immigrants undermined British culture.

"Take back control of our laws". We want to rule ourselves, as opposed to what? The obvious answer is foreigners. It wasn't that the laws were detrimental to the UK, since practically no-one, then or now, can name an EU 'law' that has materially disrupted their life and which the UK voted against. It's simply the idea that 'we' didn't control it.

And when a leading Brexiteer Tory MP claims to have been 'humiliated' by having to present a 'pink' passport when he travelled, it isn't just because he doesn't like the colour. He feels diminished by his country being part of a supranational organisation. He thinks we're better than that.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> What I'm saying is that the whole of this is being attributed to the EU referendum and *17 million people apparently wanting to perform hate crimes*. And I'm saying that isn't the whole picture.
> 
> * And again - it's dumping all those 17 million folk in the same racist hating ba*sket. And that isn't right.


Nobody has said anything of the sort The leave campaign was xenophobic & a lot of people believed anti immigrant lies that public services, our NHS, housing & jobs were in crisis because of immigrants coming here. That still doesnt make those people racists but it did emboldened a lot of racists.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> And again - it's dumping all those 17 million folk in the same racist hating basket. And that isn't right.


It really isn't. Has anyone suggested that all 17 million have committed hate crimes since the referendum?

Do all those who disagree with animal experimentation burn down laboratories? Do you feel accused of doing so?


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> It really isn't. Has anyone suggested that all 17 million have committed hate crimes since the referendum?
> 
> Do all those who disagree with animal experimentation burn down laboratories? Do you feel accused of doing so?


To be fair, the attacking on this thread could be construed as people suggesting just that. The vitriol is palpable sometimes.

And no, I haven't burned any laboratories down.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Do all those who disagree with animal experimentation burn down laboratories? Do you feel accused of doing so?




That's being accused of being a good person. Why would that bother anyone?

Not a good analogy.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Nobody has said anything of the sort The leave campaign was xenophobic & a lot of people believed anti immigrant lies that public services, our NHS, housing & jobs were in crisis because of immigrants coming here. That still doesnt make those people racists but it did emboldened a lot of racists.


Would be in crisis. They hadn't got here yet.

And yes, they have. 'Said anything of the sort'. This post itself is saying it. By 'lot of people', but no exclusion, the inference is clear. I'm not a special person, so I must be one of these 'lot of people' my voting leave emboldened racists, therefore I should have voted remain. I don't want to vote remain, so that makes me one of the people who emboldens racists, hence I am a bad person.

Over and over and over again. The message is clear. If you voted leave (or Tory to a degree) at the very best you are responsible for an increase in hate crimes, emboldening and empowering racists and nazis, at worst you're one of them.

That is what Remain voters think of Leave voters.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That's being accused of being a good person. Why would that bother anyone?
> 
> Not a good analogy.


I think the law would disagree with you.

And there are extremists about who would make exactly the same comment about the hate crimes @noushka05 has been posting about.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That is what Remain voters think of Leave voters.


What, _all_ Remain voters?


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> What, _all_ Remain voters?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> What, _all_ Remain voters?


Exactly.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I think the law would disagree with you.
> 
> And there are extremists about who would make exactly the same comment about the hate crimes @noushka05 has been posting about.


The majority of petforum members would agree that animal experimentation is bad, or at least understand why someone would feel that way. The majority of petforum members would agree that emboldening racists, or being racist yourself is bad.

Hence being accused of being anti animal experimentation = good and no one would be particularly bothered about it. The main arguments would involve medical experiments and even those in favour would agree that being kind to animals is a good thing.

Being accused of emboldening/enabling racism and hate crime = bad. Leave voters are being repeatedly told that their leave vote was misinformed, led by lies, racism and nazis and the very vote itself is comparable to a vote for Hitler and the past NF, populism and tribalism. So what is a leave voter meant to take from that? Shame, shame, shame..

Regardless of the actual reasons they may have had for voting leave.

I'm sorry if people who belong in the sewer felt vindicated by people voting to leave the Eu. Maybe if we weren't so keen on free speech and our rights, we could arrest them all, lock them up and throw away the key, to teach them the error of their ways and that normal people everywhere, regardless of their vote, think they're scum. Or at least put them in therapy.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> What they can't tell though is what was caused by the EU referendum and what was caused by the terrorist attacks I assume? Is there a split of victims by nationalities.
> 
> For instance, I wouldn't assume a hate crime committed on an Australian was due to Brexit. It just feels like they lump it all together to bump the figures.
> .


Figures in most other EU countries are on the rise too, possibly because more is being seen as a hate crime now. The method of recording was also changed on December 5th 2017


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The majority of petforum members would agree that animal experimentation is bad, or at least understand why someone would feel that way. The majority of petforum members would agree that emboldening racists, or being racist yourself is bad.
> 
> Hence being accused of being anti animal experimentation = good and no one would be particularly bothered about it. The main arguments would involve medical experiments and even those in favour would agree that being kind to animals is a good thing.
> 
> Being accused of emboldening/enabling racism and hate crime = bad. Leave voters are being repeatedly told that their leave vote was misinformed, led by lies, racism and nazis and the very vote itself is comparable to a vote for Hitler and the past NF, populism and tribalism. So what is a leave voter meant to take from that? Shame, shame, shame..
> 
> Regardless of the actual reasons they may have had for voting leave.
> 
> I'm sorry if people who belong in the sewer felt vindicated by people voting to leave the Eu. Maybe if we weren't so keen on free speech and our rights, we could arrest them all, lock them up and throw away the key, to teach them the error of their ways and that normal people everywhere, regardless of their vote, think they're scum. Or at least put them in therapy.


You are not being accused of emboldening racism by supporting Leave.

Just as you are not being accused of emboldening arsonists by supporting an end to animal experimentation.

The possibility the you see the latter as more justifiable than the former is a personal thing.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> eave voters are being repeatedly told that their leave vote was *misinformed, led by lies, racism , populism and tribalism*




The leave campaign was all those things - it was deliberately divisive. And this is why brexit is and only ever could be a disaster. It is ripping our country apart. Are there any tangible benefits at all?

*The United Kingdom* *is on life support* - CNN - the damage Brexit is doing:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/01/uk/united-kingdom-luke-mcgee-analysis-intl-gbr/index.html


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> You are not being accused of emboldening racism by supporting Leave.
> 
> Just as you are not being accused of emboldening arsonists by supporting an end to animal experimentation.
> 
> The possibility the you see the latter as more justifiable than the former is a personal thing.


Yes, you are. Obviously I'm not, nor are you, we both voted remain, but if you can't see it.....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Exactly.


But no-one has said that all Leave voters are anything in particular. (Except for those who claim that all 17 million knew exactly what Brexit would entail when they voted for it.)


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> But no-one has said that all Leave voters are anything in particular. (Except for those who claim that all 17 million knew exactly what Brexit would entail when they voted for it.)


Yes, they are.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Yes, they are.


Of course they're not.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yes, you are. Obviously I'm not, nor are you, we both voted remain, but if you can't see it.....


I can see how the Leave vote emboldened a small number of idiots. To extrapolate that to an accusation against all leave voters is plain silly.

I occasionally eat a Big Mac, thereby contributing to the success and ubiquity of the company. Some people eat so many of the things that they die early. I don't feel to blame.


----------



## noushka05

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon

Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Press Association

Desperate people forced to seek refuge is a crisis for them - but making it out to be a crisis for the rest of us so that he can then act tough is more about the Home Secretary's political ambitions. Humanitarian action would be a better response.

*Will Hutton*‏ @williamnhutton
Will Hutton Retweeted Robert Harris

Javid is not coming back to solve a non-existent "crisis". He is coming back to ensure the Sun and Mail's support in his leadership challenge - and top up his anti-migrant credentials Cry our beloved country


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Of course they're not.


Oh yes they are !



Oops, got carried away there. Panto season.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Oh yes they are !
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, got carried away there. Panto season.


Brilliant


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> That is what Remain voters think of Leave voters.


I just think they have the idea of an ideal country were everything will fall into place when we leave and all the problems the EU have caused will go way.... The that fact that we voted for most them when we were a member of the EU did has nothing to do with it. We are just as much to blame for what is wrong with the EU as anyone else, we were not a innocent party that was just dragged along by our coats tails.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Would be in crisis. They hadn't got here yet.


Can I ask what you mean by this?

We know brexit will be catastrophic for our NHS etc.

.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> Oh yes they are !
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, got carried away there. Panto season.


That made me laugh.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Happy New Year everyone on the Brexit thread.


Thank you, @stockwellcat.! And to you.


----------



## noushka05

:Hilarious

DEAR GRAYLING SIR. MY NAME IS PRINCE SEABORNE OF NIGERIA. I HAVE RECENTLY RECEIVED MANY FINE SHIPS AND WISH TO SHARE THEM. 
IF YOU CAN SEND £13,800,000 BY BANK TRANSFER, THIS WILL RELEASE THE SHIPS. 
THE TRANSACTION IS 100% SAFE. PLEASE RESPOND URGENTLY.

.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05

So you don't think that anyone who voted leave was wrong and emboldened racists, if not being one themselves then? Led by a campaign of fear and lies.

Why do you keep saying it and linking to people who are saying it then?

It's crazy. That is what Remain voters think and keep saying they think. Denying it while saying it is just stupid. 

Of course it's what they believe. There is some truth in it. Some idiots did think a leave vote meant they could be even more evil than they are now. That doesn't mean people who have concluded over the years for various reasons that we would be better out of the Eu shouldn't vote leave. They shouldn't feel they should vote remain or be tarred with the racist brush. It's what some Remainers are trying to do. When will these facts that are going to keep us in the Eu and save us all going to be linked and promoted?


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> So are you!
> 
> *Claim*
> The increase in reported hate crimes after the EU referendum was due to the way the crimes were perceived and reported, not the number of hate crimes actually being committed.
> 
> *Conclusion*
> An increased tendency to report hate crime may explain part of the recent surge in hate crimes recorded by the police. It's a matter of judgement how much.
> 
> What I'm saying is that the whole of this is being attributed to the EU referendum and 17 million people apparently wanting to perform hate crimes. And I'm saying that isn't the whole picture.
> 
> And again - it's dumping all those 17 million folk in the same racist hating basket. And that isn't right.


Everything was blamed on Brexit in 2016 . . . sundry acts of vandalism were magnified into ''hate crimes'' if the item vandalised happened to belong to a Pole or Lithuanian. Big juicy spread in one of the papers about a Polish family whose shed was torched. The same night my neighbour's shed had all its windows smashed and items stolen. And yes, you are right, no-one blamed that on Brexit.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Can I ask what you mean by this?
> 
> We know brexit will be catastrophic for our NHS etc.
> 
> .


The threat was immigrants from Turkey and refugees who made it to the Eu being sent to the U.K. wasn't it. Not that they were already here, but that they were on their way. Not that the U.K. was destroyed by mass immigration, but that it was about to be. Btw we know nothing of the sort. We have discussed the nhs to death, but it appears that you weren't listening.


----------



## Arnie83

There's an article in today's Express (covered elsewhere as well) about London Mayor Sadiq Khan's New Year fireworks display being a message of solidarity with the EU, deemed anti-Brexit, which it looks like it was.

The most popular response in the comment section as of this moment is:

"Just think our whole Country will be run by Khans if we do not do something about it. Happy New Year"​
I make no further comment, but if did it would be about Express readers and not Leavers. (And not all Express readers either!)


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> *The leave campaign was all those things - it was deliberately divisive. And this is why brexit is and only ever could be a disaster. It is ripping our country apart. Are there any tangible benefits at all?*
> --
> *The United Kingdom* *is on life support* - CNN - the damage Brexit is doing:
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/01/uk/united-kingdom-luke-mcgee-analysis-intl-gbr/index.html


The above is your reply to @Elles post which said .....

And yes, they have. 'Said anything of the sort'. This post itself is saying it. By 'lot of people', but no exclusion, the inference is clear. I'm not a special person, so I must be one of these 'lot of people' my voting leave emboldened racists, therefore I should have voted remain. I don't want to vote remain, so that makes me one of the people who emboldens racists, hence I am a bad person.

Over and over and over again. The message is clear. If you voted leave (or Tory to a degree) at the very best you are responsible for an increase in hate crimes, emboldening and empowering racists and nazis, at worst you're one of them.

That is what Remain voters think of Leave voters.

.............. which means you're confirming what @Elles said!


----------



## Elles

@Arnie83 Well as you read it yourself, clearly you wouldn't be including all Express readers. 

I think we have already concluded that some people are racist and that we don't like their attitude. How many more pages of evidence do we need, before we start discussing why the Eu is valuable and needed and the U.K. should stay a member?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The threat was immigrants from Turkey and refugees who made it to the Eu being sent to the U.K. wasn't it. Not that they were already here, but that they were on their way. Not that the U.K. was destroyed by mass immigration, but that it was about to be. Btw we know nothing of the sort. We have discussed the nhs to death, but it appears that you weren't listening.


EXACTLY!. They were LIES about Turkey Elles. It came from vote leave scaremongering propaganda & it influenced many people to vote leave!

I was listening, I heed all the warnings by experts that brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS, I havent seen you acknowledge the fact however.









.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The above is your reply to @Elles post which said .....
> 
> And yes, they have. 'Said anything of the sort'. This post itself is saying it. By 'lot of people', but no exclusion, the inference is clear. I'm not a special person, so I must be one of these 'lot of people' my voting leave emboldened racists, therefore I should have voted remain. I don't want to vote remain, so that makes me one of the people who emboldens racists, hence I am a bad person.
> 
> Over and over and over again. The message is clear. If you voted leave (or Tory to a degree) at the very best you are responsible for an increase in hate crimes, emboldening and empowering racists and nazis, at worst you're one of them.
> 
> That is what Remain voters think of Leave voters.
> 
> .............. which means you're confirming what @Elles said!


Do you dispute the leave campaign was all those things? If so you are disputing facts.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> EXACTLY!. They were LIES about Turkey Elles. It came from vote leave scaremongering propaganda


Agree.

"& it influenced many people to vote leave!"

Some maybe, how many we have no way of knowing. Whether there are any who were going to vote remain until they saw it, would be very debateable and highly unlikely.

"I was listening, I heed all the warnings by experts that brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS, I havent seen you acknowledge the fact however."

Because I don't agree with you. There are a lot of problems with health services in this and other countries. Poaching staff from Poland isn't the answer.

And as I said, we've discussed this before.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> EXACTLY!. They were LIES about Turkey Elles. It came from vote leave scaremongering propaganda & it influenced many people to vote leave!
> 
> I was listening, I heed all the warnings by experts that brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS, I havent seen you acknowledge the fact however.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I actually thought that billboard was fake which is how seriously I took it


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Do you dispute the leave campaign was all those things? If so you are disputing facts.


Just as in the post where you replied to me, you posted a fact. The poster threatening immigrants from turkey. Though at the time there was some work towards bringing turkey into the Eu, so it was based on some truths, the best propaganda is. The poster and the promise of Turkey (I think I heard it first from Farage) I agree was clearly meant as a threat, which was countered by the remain camp as not going to happen.

You then added your opinion that people were influenced to vote leave by it. Which I would not necessarily agree with. People already intending to vote leave may have taken notice, few who wanted to stay in the Eu would imo.

As many believe that immigration is good for the economy and that we have controls already in place that enable controlled immigration to benefit both us, the Eu and Turkey, it's just as likely to have been viewed as a positive. Or do you not view Turkey meeting the requirements and joining the Eu as a positive? The Remain camp inadvertently also encouraged racist, xenophobic and anti immigration beliefs by agreeing Turkey joining = bad and that lots of immigrants coming won't be happening, instead of pointing out the positives of more countries meeting the criteria and joining the Eu.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> We are just as much to blame for what is wrong with the EU as anyone else, we were not a innocent party that was just dragged along by our coats tails.


Yep, the rich getting richer, the EU hierarchy getting ever more corrupt and powerful. It had to be stopped. Hopefully we will be out in 3 months time and not a half baked out.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Agree.
> 
> "& it influenced many people to vote leave!"
> 
> Some maybe, how many we have no way of knowing. Whether there are any who were going to vote remain until they saw it, would be very debateable and highly unlikely.
> 
> "I was listening, I heed all the warnings by experts that brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS, I havent seen you acknowledge the fact however."
> 
> Because I don't agree with you. There are a lot of problems with health services in this and other countries. Poaching staff from Poland isn't the answer.
> 
> And as I said, we've discussed this before.


You believed it.

Its not me you're disagreeing with - its experts Elles. You believe you are better informed than the BMA, RCN, RCM & the Lancet?

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/11/1...benefit-the-nhs-only-varying-degrees-of-harm/

Also have you seen the £££ they are pumping into no deal?? Imagine if they used it to fund our NHS instead??

The message from the majority of clinicians and scientists is clear; Brexit is bad for our health. It will be harmful for people who rely on the NHS, research, social care and public health as well as for the workforce on which these depend. We have listened to the evidence presented to the Health and Social Care Committee in Parliament, and we cannot remain silent about the impact that this will have on the people we were elected to represent, especially in the event of a chaotic exit with no deal and no transition. We are about to knowingly, and avoidably, inflict reckless damage on the close partnerships in healthcare, built up over decades, and in place at every stage from research and development, to medicines and devices arriving in pharmacies or hospitals.

There is no version of Brexit which will benefit the NHS, social care, public health, or our life sciences sector-only varying degrees of harm. This, together with the wider economic fallout from Brexit, will have the hardest impact on the most disadvantaged people in societ



MilleD said:


> I actually thought that billboard was fake which is how seriously I took it


Many people believed this billboard too:Wtf.


----------



## kimthecat

Another terrorist attack in Manchester last night no doubt engineered by the Tories as a distraction. Shame on them


----------



## Elles

“You believed it.”

Believed what? You’ve lost me..

Your posts are hard to reply to. I don’t want to quote pages of stuff, but on my iPad I’m having trouble quoting what I actually want to.

‘They’ posted on the side of a bus that we could spend money on the nhs instead of on the Eu. Quite.

You’re now saying ‘they’ could put the money they’re spending on brexit into the nhs.

However people voted to leave the Eu and ‘they’ could do a lot of things. Considering what you think off the Tories, do you think they would put the money into the nhs instead? As people voted to leave the Eu, don’t you think the government need to spend money if necessary to prevent hardship during the transition?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Yep, the rich getting richer, the EU hierarchy getting ever more corrupt and powerful. It had to be stopped. Hopefully we will be out in 3 months time and not a half baked out.


With the tories in charge, don't make me laugh, they'll be free to make things much worse.


----------



## Elles

And still we have nothing of the positives of being a part of the Eu, just dire warnings about how we can’t survive outside of it. I have listened to experts, not just from this country, but also others. Health services across Europe are struggling for many reasons. Brexit or no Brexit the NHS needs massive change according to those I read. 

Cancelling brexit won’t solve any of its problems. A change in our own government’s policy might. No one can see the future. If your experts are saying staying in the Eu will save our nhs, I doubt they’re right and it’s just wishful thinking. Now if our government continued to give them the money they receive from the Eu and continued to encourage joint research etc. Brexit could have little to no impact on it in the short term. For the long term we’d have to see. 

But my posts answering you are pointless really. I agree it would technically be easier to call the whole thing off and stay in the Eu. I’m not at all convinced it would be a good idea. For you nothing less than remaining in the Eu is acceptable, that doesn’t make you right, but it’s easy for you, you have an unwavering faith in the Eu and remaining. I don’t.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> @Arnie83 Well as you read it yourself, clearly you wouldn't be including all Express readers.
> 
> I think we have already concluded that some people are racist and that we don't like their attitude. How many more pages of evidence do we need, before we start discussing why the Eu is valuable and needed and the U.K. should stay a member?


So long as we have all concluded that 'some' is the operative word!

We should stay for the benefits of trading in the most free free-trade area in the world, and in an organisation that not only fosters scientific, technical and environmental progress, but which brings 28 disparate countries together such that, while they might bicker with each other, it is less likely than at any other time in human history to end up in conflict.

Unfortunately, unless May is stopped, all that will either be lost or threatened. And for what?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> the EU hierarchy getting ever more corrupt


Any evidence of that anywhere at all yet?


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> With the tories in charge, don't make me laugh, they'll be free to make things much worse.


If you go back and look at poverty in this country, it's usually been worse when we've had a Labour government or shortly after a Labour government.

I do realise that those unfortunates that have been caught up in the ill thought out universal credit shambles are suffering at the moment and that needs to be addressed immediately, but generally, I believe people are better off financially with the Tories in charge.

That's not to say that I trust them or that some need investigating for dodgy doings. I just believe it will be easier to bring them to book, without the shield of the EU


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> That's not to say that I trust them or that some need investigating for dodgy doings. I just believe it will be easier to bring them to book, without the shield of the EU


How?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> So long as we have all concluded that 'some' is the operative word!
> 
> We should stay for the benefits of trading in the most free free-trade area in the world, and in an organisation that not only fosters scientific, technical and environmental progress, but which brings 28 disparate countries together such that, while they might bicker with each other, it is less likely than at any other time in human history to end up in conflict.
> 
> Unfortunately, unless May is stopped, all that will either be lost or threatened. And for what?


The Eu has made some big mistakes that have damaged the environment and led to deaths. As a separate entity Britain can foster progress and faster, whilst still working with the Eu and other countries to a degree. Unfortunately, I agree with you in some respects. We don't appear to be in a position to do that at the moment, nor were we under Cameron's government. Our voting system would need a big overhaul in my view and more aware and sympathetic government bodies in charge.

However, we have now voted to leave the Eu and although I would have preferred we got our country in order first, we have to hope we can do it afterwards and work on it.

I don't share the pessimism of Remainers. I'm with Rona in that leaving the Eu may bring about more transparency and accountability. It still depends on how we do it though.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Eu has made some big mistakes that have damaged the environment and led to deaths. As a separate entity Britain can foster progress and faster, whilst still working with the Eu and other countries to a degree. Unfortunately, I agree with you in some respects. We don't appear to be in a position to do that at the moment, nor were we under Cameron's government. Our voting system would need a big overhaul in my view and more aware and sympathetic government bodies in charge.
> 
> However, we have now voted to leave the Eu and although I would have preferred we got our country in order first, we have to hope we can do it afterwards and work on it.
> 
> I don't share the pessimism of Remainers. I'm with Rona in that leaving the Eu may bring about more transparency and accountability. It still depends on how we do it though.


"I'm with Rona in that leaving the Eu may bring about more transparency and accountability."

Well Rona has me on ignore, so I'll ask you; How do you see leaving the EU doing that, and in what areas?


----------



## Happy Paws2

_[QUOTE="rona, post: 1065356893, member: 1291961" I believe people are better off financially with the Tories in charge.

[/QUOTE]_

That's why there are so many homeless, the tories, well that bloody women thatcher, sold off nearly all the council houses and until recently councils haven't been allowed build any more to replace them. Yes we are better off.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> "I'm with Rona in that leaving the Eu may bring about more transparency and accountability."
> 
> Well Rona has me on ignore, so I'll ask you; How do you see leaving the EU doing that, and in what areas?


Seeing as apparently everything that's wrong in the world has been blamed on the Eu, leaving it gives no excuses does it? No one can use the Eu as a scapegoat if we're no longer in it.

Have to say, sometimes I do feel like I'm stating the obvious. Remainers have been saying for over 2 years now that the Tory government has been blaming the Eu for their own shortcomings and failures. Well if we ain't in the Eu they can't can they.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> "You believed it."


You believed the propaganda about Turkey.



Elles said:


> 'They' posted on the side of a bus that we could spend money on the nhs instead of on the Eu. Quite


There is NO money! There wont be any 'dividend' to spend on ANYTHING. That was another lie many fell for.



Elles said:


> You're now saying 'they' could put the money they're spending on brexit into the nhs.


Yes, the billions the tories have miraculously found to spend on no deal. They found the magic money tree now!



Elles said:


> However people voted to leave the Eu and 'they' could do a lot of things. Considering what you think off the Tories, do you think they would put the money into the nhs instead?


Of course they wont. You've read The Shock Doctrine so isn't it obvious to you what they will do to the NHS once we brexit?



Elles said:


> As people voted to leave the Eu, don't you think the government need to spend money if necessary to prevent hardship during the transition?


NO responsible government would play brinkmanship the lives of 64 million of its citizens!



rona said:


> If you go back and look at poverty in this country, it's usually been worse when we've had a Labour government or shortly after a Labour governme


I'm sure you must live in a bubble Rona.

Shameful.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Poverty/EOM_GB_16Nov2018.pdf

The experience of the UK, *especially since 2010*, underscores the conclusion that poverty is a political choice. Austerity could easily have spared the poor, if the political will had existed to do so. Resources were available to the Treasury at the last budget that could have transformed the situation of millions of people living in poverty, but the political choice was made to fund tax cuts for the wealthy instead.

It was a British philosopher, Thomas Hobbes, who memorably claimed that without a social contract, life outside society would be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." The risk is that if current policies do not change, this is the direction in which low-income earners and the poor are headed. Loneliness rates have soared in recent years and life expectancy rates have stalled in the United Kingdom, with the latest statistics showing a sharp drop in the annual improvement that has been experienced every year since the records began, and an actual drop for certain groups.88 The compassion and mutual concern that has long been part of the British tradition has been outsourced. At the same time many of the public places and institutions that previously brought communities together, such as libraries, community and recreation centers, and public parks, have been steadily dismantled or undermined. In its fiscal analyses, the Treasury and the Government constantly repeat the refrain that fiscal policy must "avoid burdening the next generation." The message is that the debt burden must be paid off now. *The problem is that the next generation's prospects are already being grievously undermined by the systematic dismantling of social protection policies since 2010*



rona said:


> I believe people are better off financially with the Tories in charge


And yet evidence suggests otherwise but hey ho. So long as you're alright Jack!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Seeing as apparently everything that's wrong in the world has been blamed on the Eu, leaving it gives no excuses does it? No one can use the Eu as a scapegoat if we're no longer in it.
> 
> Have to say, sometimes I do feel like I'm stating the obvious. Remainers have been saying for over 2 years now that the Tory government has been blaming the Eu for their own shortcomings and failures. Well if we ain't in the Eu they can't can they.


Well thats a fantastic reason to leave the EU - then we'll be totally at the mercy of the tories Why do you think many of us want to remain?

Again, I ask you, did you glean anything from the shock doctrine? It doesnt seem as though you have.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> That's why there are so many homeless, the tories, well that bloody women thatcher, sold off nearly all the council houses and* until recently councils haven't been allowed build any more *to replace them. Yes we are better off.


Who was in for rather a lot of years after Maggie and who is now building houses?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Seeing as apparently everything that's wrong in the world has been blamed on the Eu, leaving it gives no excuses does it? No one can use the Eu as a scapegoat if we're no longer in it.
> 
> Have to say, sometimes I do feel like I'm stating the obvious. Remainers have been saying for over 2 years now that the Tory government has been blaming the Eu for their own shortcomings and failures. Well if we ain't in the Eu they can't can they.


You don't think they'll find someone else to blame? Skivers / assorted welfare claimants, the Labour crash, the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement forced on us by the EU as we struggled bravely to keep our precious union together, external economic shocks, an unexpected cold snap, the heatwave, the boogie ...


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Who was in for rather a lot of years after Maggie and who is now building houses?


*Decade of Tory rule condemns UK to the fewest new houses since WW2*
Today's devastating findings have been revealed by the Centre for Policy Studies - a think tank set up by Margaret Thatcher herself

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/decade-tory-rule-condemns-uk-13798950


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> You don't think they'll find someone else to blame? Skivers / assorted welfare claimants, the Labour crash, the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement forced on us by the EU as we struggled bravely to keep our precious union together, external economic shocks, an unexpected cold snap, the heatwave, the boogie ...


Hey! Don't blame it on the boogie!


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Hey! Don't blame it on the boogie!


----------



## Elles

Actually @noushka05 you have totally missed the point about Turkey.

I neither believed, nor disbelieved it, because it made no difference to me. I have and had no problem at all with further countries who meet Eu criteria joining the Eu and their citizens having the same FOM and rights we have, if we remain in the Eu. You think it's a problem if Turkey meet the criteria and some Turkish citizens move to the U.K. to take up job opportunities, as would be their right as part of the Eu and some British were to move to Turkey? In fact imho, the more countries that could meet the criteria and join the Eu, the better it would have been. Not going to happen though. Meeting the criteria is pretty difficult for countries like Turkey.

An image of displaced, desperate people crossing hundreds of miles in an attempt to find safety, fills me nothing but fear for them and sympathy for them. Which is why at the height of the refugee crisis I shared articles, videos and programmes from various bodies who were bringing attention to their plight and asking for help. The Eu have nothing to do with it.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> *Decade of Tory rule condemns UK to the fewest new houses since WW2*
> Today's devastating findings have been revealed by the Centre for Policy Studies - a think tank set up by Margaret Thatcher herself
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/decade-tory-rule-condemns-uk-13798950


Oh yeah, you don't think the bank crash and 10 years of austerity imposed might have had something to do with that?

If our government had carried on borrowing and building it wouldn't have met Eu directives and the Eu would likely have tried to force us to comply, just as they have other members. However austerity was and is part of conservative government policy, extensive house building wouldn't be part of that.

However, apparently austerity is now over and building has begun again. I can agree that small, low cost properties and housing the homeless should be one of the priorities. I would also say that it's unlikely to be a priority for any of our potential governments. 

In or out of the Eu would make little difference now.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Lol these things often say ‘nuff said’ or similar. It never is though is it?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Oh yeah, you don't think the bank crash and 10 years of austerity imposed might have had something to do with that?
> 
> *If our government had carried on borrowing and building it wouldn't have met Eu directives and the Eu would likely have tried to force us to comply, just as they have other members.* However austerity was and is part of conservative government policy, extensive house building wouldn't be part of that.
> 
> However, apparently austerity is now over and building has begun again. I can agree that small, low cost properties and housing the homeless should be one of the priorities. I would also say that it's unlikely to be a priority for any of our potential governments.
> 
> In or out of the Eu would make little difference now.


By 'directives', I assume you mean the stability and growth pact, which we did sign. We are not, though, a member of the eurozone. There is no practical comeback from the EU should we choose to exceed the limits with which eurozone members comply.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> By 'directives', I assume you mean the stability and growth pact, which we did sign. We are not, though, a member of the eurozone. There is no practical comeback from the EU should we choose to exceed the limits with which eurozone members comply.


Yeah, they can save that for other countries who are more likely to ignore them like Italy.

I just find it strange that people who are anti austerity keep bringing it up in a brexit thread, when the Eu themselves are pro austerity and for peoples who end up suffering far more than Brits do, with less of a safety net.


----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook:

ADVISORY REFERENDUM ON DEATH PENALTY
Imagine that the Tory government called an advisory referendum on the restoration of the death penalty in 2016.
Over 70% of MPs campaigned against the death penalty
The pro-death campaign won the referendum by a narrow majority of just over a million votes
Subsequently it came to light that the pro-death campaign had lied about the national murder rate, whipped up unjustified fears of impending terrorist attacks and distorted data about the costs of keeping murderers in prison
Should MPs still feel morally obliged 3 years later to implement the “will of the people” by facilitating the re-introduction of capital punishment and opposing any further referendums on the issue?


----------



## Elles

What?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yeah, they can save that for other countries who are more likely to ignore them like Italy.
> 
> I just find it strange that people who are anti austerity keep bringing it up in a brexit thread, when the Eu themselves are pro austerity and for peoples who end up suffering far more than Brits do, with less of a safety net.


Italy amended their budget proposals and the EU are now 'happy' with them.

I don't think the Tory policies since 2010 have anything to do with the EU, though their approach was similarly 'conservative'. I would have preferred a more expansionist approach across all of Europe, but I'm a bit more liberal in economic policy. (No-one listens )


----------



## Arnie83

Roger Helmer former Tory MEP, moved to UKIP:

"While the UK is locked in critical negotiations with Brussels, Sadiq Khan chooses to display the other side's flag on the London Eye. Would he have shown an Argentinian flag during the Falklands war?"​
This is the sort of attitude that saddens me. To reflect on much of today's discussion, especially with @Elles , I suppose what upsets me is that sensible people with different reasons for voting Leave helped, through no fault of their own, to get idiots like this what they want. I would like to see them dismissed as antediluvian throwbacks.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> From Facebook:
> 
> ADVISORY REFERENDUM ON DEATH PENALTY
> Imagine that the Tory government called an advisory referendum on the restoration of the death penalty in 2016.
> Over 70% of MPs campaigned against the death penalty
> The pro-death campaign won the referendum by a narrow majority of just over a million votes
> Subsequently it came to light that the pro-death campaign had lied about the national murder rate, whipped up unjustified fears of impending terrorist attacks and distorted data about the costs of keeping murderers in prison
> Should MPs still feel morally obliged 3 years later to implement the "will of the people" by facilitating the re-introduction of capital punishment and opposing any further referendums on the issue?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

O















https://www.theguardian.com/politic...pro-eu-fireworks-display-london-new-years-eve


----------



## KittenKong

Aron Turner:

"Head of Commons committee investigating 'fake news' warns people will be 'very frightened' by the idea that Hitler's tactics were copied ...

Demonizing minorities for political gain

Straight out of the Nazi propaganda playbook, right wing tabloid newspapers including the Daily Mail, The Sun and Daily Express have consistently fanned the flames of religious and racial intolerance, creating an ideal environment of low level hatred and distrust of immigrants for the Leave campaigns to provide their simplistic and largely impossible solution. ...

How Leave campaigns used propaganda

The anti-EU sentiment of the British right-wing press increased Conservative Euroscepticism to a point that the Brexit referendum was inevitable, if only to put an end to the divisions within the Tory party. A perfect storm of unethical campaigning practices, poor data protection and governance, a belligerent and resurgent Russia, Hedge-funds on the make (and wary of the new EU Tax Avoidance Directive ) and an increasingly neoliberal American elite happy to stir up Nationalist sentiment to profit from the resultant economic disruption.

Background

Drip feed of low level eurosceptic news and misinformation by UK right wing press creates climate of anti-europe sentiment.

Conservative euroscepticism increases as a reaction to media pressure making it almost impossible for the conservative-led remain campaign to campaign on a pro-europe message.

Stage 1

SCL Group company Aggregate IQ uses sophisticated data analytics to accurately target swing voters.

Leave campaigns create anonymised social media campaigns to create an anti-muslim and anti-immigrant climate, testing and evolving millions of targeted adverts to optimise their impact.

Russian intelligence uses cold war inspired 'troll farms" to engage the arguments creating division and stoking further hatred by spreading misinformation and fake news. Bots are deployed to increase the visibility of hot hashtags to spread further division.

Stage 2

Leave campaigns create targeted advertising with misinformation and fake news (for example, the £350 million per week claim and the Turkey Accession claim).

Leave campaigns provide 'the solution' to the climate of fear they have created - to leave the EU.

Leave campaigns 'silence' Remain campaign messaging on the risks to the economy as 'Project Fear" - effectively a form of censorship.

Stage 3

Vote Leave and Leave.EU illegally overspend by up to 10% in the last few days of the campaign - the most critical period in campaigning. Millions of targeted adverts flood social media at a time when the remain campaign have run out of funds. These adverts target swing voters to vote Leave, and attempt to suppress the Remain vote.

Leave wins by a small margin. "

Full article:
https://brexposed.uk/brexits-nazi-propaganda-techniques


----------



## Jesthar

Someone was bemoaning the lack of 'what the EU has done for us' examples earlier. Off the top of my head, here's a few...

• Not having to dodge sewage while swimming at beaches (yes, I do remember those days)
• Return of fish and wildlife to many stretches of rivers and waterways (job based knowledge)
• Abolished mobile phone roaming charges
• Equal pay for men and women doing the same job (in theory, at least - companys don't always comply)
• Statutory right to 12 months maternity leave (SiL is currentyl enjoying this)
• Working Time Directive, so you can’t be forced by an employer to work more than 48 hours a week (unless you choose to)
• Free access to medical care in any other member country
• Keeping your holiday entitlement because you were ill whilst on leave
• Upcoming legislation to clamp down on tax avoidance (unfortunately we'll probably never benefit from that)


----------



## Elles

That was me, possibly, though not exactly what I said. They are mostly things our country could and should do whether in or out of the Eu and the U.K. were already ahead over Europe over some, behind on others. 

However roaming charges for mobiles and free healthcare would come into question if we leave the Eu with no deal, no question.

I’m not asking what has the Eu done for us though, that’s a bit too basic and local a question, there’s a much bigger picture than just us.


----------



## Elles

It was a bit naughty of Khan in reality. The New Year fireworks are supposed to be heralding a New Year, not making a political statement.  Even the Guardian called it ‘Trolling’.

Most of the conservative government and MPs and the Capital want to stay in the Eu, so it’s not surprising really. The North already feel excluded and ignored, they could feel this is cocking a snook at their vote. It does concern me a bit tbh.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 386336
> 
> View attachment 386335


I'm getting fat eating all this pop corn .


----------



## Elles

I don’t read the Mail, or twitter, or Facebook, so I suppose I haven’t seen this stirring of race hatred using hitler’s techniques. Shouldn’t the Mail be prosecuted for inciting race hatred and spreading lies in that case?

Anyway, there’s a lot of money behind a Facebook campaign against TM’s deal, encouraging people to write to their MPs opposing it. Should we support the deal, rather than risk leaving with no deal?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Aron Turner:
> 
> "Head of Commons committee investigating 'fake news' warns people will be 'very frightened' by the idea that Hitler's tactics were copied ...
> 
> Demonizing minorities for political gain
> 
> Straight out of the Nazi propaganda playbook, right wing tabloid newspapers including the Daily Mail, The Sun and Daily Express have consistently fanned the flames of religious and racial intolerance, creating an ideal environment of low level hatred and distrust of immigrants for the Leave campaigns to provide their simplistic and largely impossible solution. ...
> 
> How Leave campaigns used propaganda
> 
> The anti-EU sentiment of the British right-wing press increased Conservative Euroscepticism to a point that the Brexit referendum was inevitable, if only to put an end to the divisions within the Tory party. A perfect storm of unethical campaigning practices, poor data protection and governance, a belligerent and resurgent Russia, Hedge-funds on the make (and wary of the new EU Tax Avoidance Directive ) and an increasingly neoliberal American elite happy to stir up Nationalist sentiment to profit from the resultant economic disruption.
> 
> Background
> 
> Drip feed of low level eurosceptic news and misinformation by UK right wing press creates climate of anti-europe sentiment.
> 
> Conservative euroscepticism increases as a reaction to media pressure making it almost impossible for the conservative-led remain campaign to campaign on a pro-europe message.
> 
> Stage 1
> 
> SCL Group company Aggregate IQ uses sophisticated data analytics to accurately target swing voters.
> 
> Leave campaigns create anonymised social media campaigns to create an anti-muslim and anti-immigrant climate, testing and evolving millions of targeted adverts to optimise their impact.
> 
> Russian intelligence uses cold war inspired 'troll farms" to engage the arguments creating division and stoking further hatred by spreading misinformation and fake news. Bots are deployed to increase the visibility of hot hashtags to spread further division.
> 
> Stage 2
> 
> Leave campaigns create targeted advertising with misinformation and fake news (for example, the £350 million per week claim and the Turkey Accession claim).
> 
> Leave campaigns provide 'the solution' to the climate of fear they have created - to leave the EU.
> 
> Leave campaigns 'silence' Remain campaign messaging on the risks to the economy as 'Project Fear" - effectively a form of censorship.
> 
> Stage 3
> 
> Vote Leave and Leave.EU illegally overspend by up to 10% in the last few days of the campaign - the most critical period in campaigning. Millions of targeted adverts flood social media at a time when the remain campaign have run out of funds. These adverts target swing voters to vote Leave, and attempt to suppress the Remain vote.
> 
> Leave wins by a small margin. "
> 
> Full article:
> https://brexposed.uk/brexits-nazi-propaganda-techniques


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> From Facebook:
> 
> ADVISORY REFERENDUM ON DEATH PENALTY
> Imagine that the Tory government called an advisory referendum on the restoration of the death penalty in 2016.
> Over 70% of MPs campaigned against the death penalty
> The pro-death campaign won the referendum by a narrow majority of just over a million votes
> Subsequently it came to light that the pro-death campaign had lied about the national murder rate, whipped up unjustified fears of impending terrorist attacks and distorted data about the costs of keeping murderers in prison
> Should MPs still feel morally obliged 3 years later to implement the "will of the people" by facilitating the re-introduction of capital punishment and opposing any further referendums on the issue?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card

I also know an EU citizen with two British children and married to an English man. There seems to be no problems for her even though she has never taken up permanent residency status and has to register every 5 years entailing a trip to London, all the expense that entails and a day out of her life every 5 years.
I reckon the new system will benefit that family.
Also, with a sick elderly mother that may need care, they could relocate back to her country of origin for up to 5 years instead of the previous 2 years without having to reapply


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> And still we have nothing of the positives of being a part of the Eu, just dire warnings about how we can't survive outside of it. I have listened to experts, not just from this country, but also others. Health services across Europe are struggling for many reasons. Brexit or no Brexit the NHS needs massive change according to those I read.
> 
> Cancelling brexit won't solve any of its problems. A change in our own government's policy might. No one can see the future. If your experts are saying staying in the Eu will save our nhs, I doubt they're right and it's just wishful thinking. Now if our government continued to give them the money they receive from the Eu and continued to encourage joint research etc. Brexit could have little to no impact on it in the short term. For the long term we'd have to see.
> 
> But my posts answering you are pointless really. I agree it would technically be easier to call the whole thing off and stay in the Eu. I'm not at all convinced it would be a good idea. For you nothing less than remaining in the Eu is acceptable, that doesn't make you right, but it's easy for you, you have an unwavering faith in the Eu and remaining. I don't.


There are plenty of positives, but you choose to ignore them, so not much we can do about that,

Can you please provide references to your sources? The overwhelming consensual position of experts within the NHS is that brexit will be terrible for our *already crippled* health service. TBQH it doesnt take a genius to see that leaving the EMA, Euratom, SM/CU is going to have a terrible impact. Compound that with staffing shortages. Less funding. Ramped up privatisation. The changes needed is for the government to reverse the selling off of our NHS & to fully invest in it.

With the ensuing chaos brexit will bring, the tories will use it to finish off our NHS once & for all - This is how _Disaster Capitalism _works Elles, I'm sure you must now be fully aware having read The Shock Doctrine?.

You actually think the tories would change policy and save it?  I'm baffled. Do you _still _not understand their ideology?? Our NHS is the antithesis of tory ideology Elles. You really don't need to be an expert to understand this. Good grief.

Of course _my_ experts aren't saying staying in the EU will save our NHS. They are saying leaving will be disastrous for it.

For me, cutting ones nose off to spite ones face is just insane.



Elles said:


> Actually @noushka05 you have totally missed the point about Turkey.
> 
> I neither believed, nor disbelieved i


No I haven't.

_The threat was immigrants from Turkey and refugees who made it to the Eu being sent to the U.K_

It certainly sounds like you believed it = & so did a lot of others. Which was my point.



Elles said:


> You think it's a problem if Turkey meet the criteria and some Turkish citizens move to the U.K. to take up job opportunities, as would be their right as part of the Eu and some British were to move to Turkey?


I don't but a lot did - even though it will never happen! Many people believed the scaremongering. My point again.



Elles said:


> An image of displaced, desperate people crossing hundreds of miles in an attempt to find safety, fills me nothing but fear for them and sympathy for them. Which is why at the height of the refugee crisis I shared articles, videos and programmes from various bodies who were bringing attention to their plight and asking for help. The Eu have nothing to do with it.


Were you not also furious that the leave campaign used that Nazi inspired poster to whip up fear of immigrants? Many people were duped into voting leave by this Elles! Trump used the exact same tactics with his 'migrant caravan' prior to the mid term elections. Its despicable.



Elles said:


> Oh yeah, you don't think the bank crash and 10 years of austerity imposed might have had something to do with that?


I think its all part & parcel of neoliberal ideology 



Elles said:


> If our government had carried on borrowing and building it wouldn't have met Eu directives and the Eu would likely have tried to force us to comply, just as they have other members. *However austerity was and is part of conservative government policy, extensive house building wouldn't be part of that.*


See Arnies post. Your last sentence sums it up.



Elles said:


> However, apparently austerity is now over and building has begun agai


The tories are gaslighting us Elles. We ain't seen nothing yet! And when we brexit all but the few are going to know about it.

*Caroline Lucas*‏ 20 Dec 2018:
Tories continue to roll out their unforgivable public health cuts programme - @commonslibrary have number-crunched the figures, showing a 3.3% funding cut per head.

Funny that wasn't mentioned in today's announcement, nor the yearly cuts since 2015 

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-12-20/HCWS1221 …

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

A number of papers reporting this ...

*Jeremy Corbyn is facing further pressure to back a second Brexit referendum after polling showed clear support among Labour members for another vote.

A study of more than 1,000 members found 72 per cent want Mr Corbyn to throw his weight behind a so-called People's Vote.*​
I don't think he will have much choice, assuming May's Deal is voted down (still most likely) and he can't get a GE (very likely indeed).


----------



## noushka05

Ironically I don't think a much better summary than this.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card
> 
> I also know an EU citizen with two British children and married to an English man. There seems to be no problems for her even though she has never taken up permanent residency status and has to register every 5 years entailing a trip to London, all the expense that entails and a day out of her life every 5 years.
> I reckon the new system will benefit that family.
> Also, with a sick elderly mother that may need care, they could relocate back to her country of origin for up to 5 years instead of the previous 2 years without having to reapply


Another handy anecdote. I bet the EU citizen you know is thrilled about this as well.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 386401


Kate Hoey is as far right as Mogg et al & Farage. She is in the wrong party.


----------



## noushka05

I wonder.

Nazil Afzal: Funny how @SadiqKhan opposing hard Brexiteers with a firework display in London & a suspected Islamist terror attack in Manchester bring out the same trolls.

Wonder what that's about?

..........


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Aron Turner:
> 
> "Head of Commons committee investigating 'fake news' warns people will be 'very frightened' by the idea that Hitler's tactics were copied ...
> 
> Demonizing minorities for political gain
> 
> Straight out of the Nazi propaganda playbook, right wing tabloid newspapers including the Daily Mail, The Sun and Daily Express have consistently fanned the flames of religious and racial intolerance, creating an ideal environment of low level hatred and distrust of immigrants for the Leave campaigns to provide their simplistic and largely impossible solution. ...
> 
> How Leave campaigns used propaganda
> 
> The anti-EU sentiment of the British right-wing press increased Conservative Euroscepticism to a point that the Brexit referendum was inevitable, if only to put an end to the divisions within the Tory party. A perfect storm of unethical campaigning practices, poor data protection and governance, a belligerent and resurgent Russia, Hedge-funds on the make (and wary of the new EU Tax Avoidance Directive ) and an increasingly neoliberal American elite happy to stir up Nationalist sentiment to profit from the resultant economic disruption.
> 
> Background
> 
> Drip feed of low level eurosceptic news and misinformation by UK right wing press creates climate of anti-europe sentiment.
> 
> Conservative euroscepticism increases as a reaction to media pressure making it almost impossible for the conservative-led remain campaign to campaign on a pro-europe message.
> 
> Stage 1
> 
> SCL Group company Aggregate IQ uses sophisticated data analytics to accurately target swing voters.
> 
> Leave campaigns create anonymised social media campaigns to create an anti-muslim and anti-immigrant climate, testing and evolving millions of targeted adverts to optimise their impact.
> 
> Russian intelligence uses cold war inspired 'troll farms" to engage the arguments creating division and stoking further hatred by spreading misinformation and fake news. Bots are deployed to increase the visibility of hot hashtags to spread further division.
> 
> Stage 2
> 
> Leave campaigns create targeted advertising with misinformation and fake news (for example, the £350 million per week claim and the Turkey Accession claim).
> 
> Leave campaigns provide 'the solution' to the climate of fear they have created - to leave the EU.
> 
> Leave campaigns 'silence' Remain campaign messaging on the risks to the economy as 'Project Fear" - effectively a form of censorship.
> 
> Stage 3
> 
> Vote Leave and Leave.EU illegally overspend by up to 10% in the last few days of the campaign - the most critical period in campaigning. Millions of targeted adverts flood social media at a time when the remain campaign have run out of funds. These adverts target swing voters to vote Leave, and attempt to suppress the Remain vote.
> 
> Leave wins by a small margin. "
> 
> Full article:
> https://brexposed.uk/brexits-nazi-propaganda-techniques


---

You should be more careful where you get your information from, particularly when you so obviously believe it's the gospel truth!

There's something very fishy about Brexposed!

It was started by someone called Justin Smith who only has 20 followers on twitter, and doesn't appear to have a Facebook account. On twitter he asks people to contribute to and share the website

Yet, if you look at Brexposed you'll find it's packed full of information which must take a great deal of time and effort to research and down load onto the site. There's also no information about who's contributing the articles or the "about us" you usually find and no comments from readers and followers.

In other words it's just propaganda designed to reinforce fanatical Remainers beliefs All very mysterious!

I have a suspicion the website's not funded by it's creator by by organisations who have vested interests far beyond the UK's shores - Putin maybe????


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> ---
> 
> You should be more careful where you get your information from, particularly when you so obviously believe it's the gospel truth!
> 
> There's something very fishy about Brexposed!
> 
> It was started by someone called Justin Smith who only has 20 followers on twitter, and doesn't appear to have a Facebook account. On twitter he asks people to contribute to and share the website
> 
> Yet, if you look at Brexposed you'll find it's packed full of information which must take a great deal of time and effort to research and down load onto the site


I've only scanned it, but the site seems to provide references to trustworthy sources. So what information in there do you actually dispute?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> ---
> 
> You should be more careful where you get your information from, particularly when you so obviously believe it's the gospel truth!
> 
> There's something very fishy about Brexposed!
> 
> It was started by someone called Justin Smith who only has 20 followers on twitter, and doesn't appear to have a Facebook account. On twitter he asks people to contribute to and share the website
> 
> Yet, if you look at Brexposed you'll find it's packed full of information which must take a great deal of time and effort to research and down load onto the site. There's also no information about who's contributing the articles or the "about us" you usually find and no comments from readers and followers.
> 
> In other words it's just propaganda designed to reinforce fanatical Remainers beliefs All very mysterious!
> 
> I have a suspicion the website's not funded by it's creator by by organisations who have vested interests far beyond the UK's shores - Putin maybe????


North Korea perhaps are the authors or as you said Putin or even Trump.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I've only scanned it, but the site seems to provide references to trustworthy sources. So what information in there do you actually dispute?


Well of course you approve because it agrees with your thinking so it has to be absolutely correct and trustworthy!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone who believes anything they read or hear from the press at the moment really needs their head testing, we are been feed one lie after another and some people are stupid enough to think they are telling us the truth. Even the government doesn't know the truth, so how on earth would the press know anything.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone who believes anything they read or hear from the press at the moment really needs their head testing, we are been feed one lie after another and some people are stupid enough to think they are telling us the truth. Even the government doesn't know the truth, so how on earth would the press know anything.


My sentiments exactly! And all the "tweeter" and "facebooker" remainers who are elaborating on what the media says and exaggerating everything out of all proportion with their fear mongering are playing right into the hands of people like Putin who must be rubbing his hands in glee








.

Keep up the good work!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> My sentiments exactly! And all the "tweeter" and "facebooker" *remainers who are elaborating on what the media says and exaggerating everything out of all proportion with their fear mongering *are playing right into the hands of people like Putin who must be rubbing his hands in glee
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> It's the *leaves as well* they are just as good, if not better at scare mongering,


----------



## stockwellcat.

Nah.
Remainers are definitely experts at scaremongering. They learnt from the king of scaremongering himself. Cameron.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I have a suspicion the website's not funded by it's creator by by organisations who have vested interests far beyond the UK's shores - Putin maybe?


Why would Putin fund a 'remain' website?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Well of course you approve because it agrees with your thinking so it has to be absolutely correct and trustworthy!


No, because the links I've read are based on evidence and so fact checkable. Many are actually links to FullFact!


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> I have a suspicion the website's not funded by it's creator by by organisations who have vested interests far beyond the UK's shores - Putin maybe????





stockwellcat. said:


> North Korea perhaps are the authors or as you said Putin or even Trump.


Gawd..........give up on the conspiracy theories.......leave that to others


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone who believes anything they read or hear from the press at the moment really needs their head testing, we are been feed one lie after another and some people are stupid enough to think they are telling us the truth. Even the government doesn't know the truth, so how on earth would the press know anything.


Its best to go direct to trusted experts & public figures in these days of spin & misinformation. The media has let us down terribly on brexit.

This is a good summary - "the EU debate and vote was not one about democracy, but one about who controls and disseminates the information."

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2018/05/25/brexit-and-the-media/


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> My sentiments exactly! And all the "tweeter" and "facebooker" remainers who are elaborating on what the media says and exaggerating everything out of all proportion with their fear mongering are playing right into the hands of people like Putin who must be rubbing his hands in glee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Yet Putin supports brexit, like he supported Trump - Russia interfered with our referendum. It isnt remainers who have played into his hands 

I don't agree with Putin - do you?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Gawd..........give up on the conspiracy theories.......leave that to others


They cease to be conspiracy theories when there is solid evidence 

*Brexit 'bad boys' Nigel Farage and Arron Banks investigated for Russia links during EU referendum*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-links-eu-referendum-vote-leave-a8422506.html


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Nah.
> Remainers are definitely experts at scaremongering. They learnt from the king of scaremongering himself. Cameron.


and what about the worst of all, leaver and liar Boris Johnson!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Why would Putin fund a 'remain' website?


Because whether you acknowledge the fact or not, remainer "speak" is always negative, predicts the absolute worse that can possibly happen together with the resultant mayhem!

It's in his interests and suits his agenda to encourage such propaganda - after all what could be better that a UK in chaos?



noushka05 said:


> Its best to go direct to trusted experts & public figures in these days of spin & misinformation. The media has let us down terribly on brexit.
> 
> This is a good summary - "the EU debate and vote was not one about democracy, but one about who controls and disseminates the information."
> 
> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2018/05/25/brexit-and-the-media/


Thank you for the link. Are you absolutely positive that "God loves me"?

*God Loves You*
*Discover God's Love and Forgiveness God Wants You to Know Him*

And is the article "Beginning your Relationship with God"correct, trustworthy and written by an expert?


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Gawd..........give up on the conspiracy theories.......leave that to others


Rona I'm not into conspiracy theories, it's just that somehow this particular site doesn't "add up" if you understand, and it set me wondering whether it was being funded by some organization with plenty of money behind them and an ulterior motive.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Because whether you acknowledge the fact or not, remainer "speak" is always negative, predicts the absolute worse that can possibly happen together with the resultant mayhem!
> 
> It's in his interests and suits his agenda to encourage such propaganda - after all what could be better that a UK in chaos?
> 
> Thank you for the link. Are you absolutely positive that "God loves me"?
> 
> *God Loves You*
> *Discover God's Love and Forgiveness God Wants You to Know Him*
> 
> And is the article "Beginning your Relationship with God"correct, trustworthy and written by an expert?


Because brexit will be a disaster. It already is!. And anyone who cant see that is in denial.

Exactly. Putin wants brexit because it will bring chaos to this country & it will weaken the EU.

The article was shared by Peter Jukes, who along with the brilliant journalist Carole Cadwalladre has done top investigative journalism on Trump/brexit/Russia https://dialmformueller.com/ Do you disagree with content of that article? (not the god bit lol)


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Because whether you acknowledge the fact or not, remainer "speak" is always negative, predicts the absolute worse that can possibly happen together with the resultant mayhem!
> 
> It's in his interests and suits his agenda to encourage such propaganda - after all what could be better that a UK in chaos?


Blimey. Who indulges in this "remainer speak", may I ask?

Is Putin not risking, through his financial support for remainers, that the UK might yet stay in the EU? That would certainly not be good news for Russia.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Rona I'm not into conspiracy theories, it's just that somehow this particular site doesn't "add up" if you understand, and it set me wondering whether it was being funded by some organization with plenty of money behind them and an ulterior motive.


So you're sceptical of a site which is simply a compilation of references which can be fact checked - yet you unquestioningly accept totally untrustworthy sources like John Redwood. Many on the brexposed site are direct to the FullFact fact checking site:Hilarious

.


----------



## Arnie83

Gavin Williamson, our esteemed Secretary of State for 'Shut up and go away' Defence ...

Mr Williamson predicts that the "political focus will shift quite dramatically" after Brexit and the UK has to build "deeper relationships with Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Caribbean countries but also nations right across Africa".

*He says these countries will "look to us to provide the moral leadership, the military leadership and the global leadership".*​
You have to feel sorry for these lesser countries, floundering around with no moral leadership, yearning for a post-Brexit Britain to take control.

Idiot.


----------



## noushka05

Here you go @Magyarmum . Which errors have you found? https://brexposed.uk/brexits-nazi-propaganda-techniques/

*Have your say!*

*It's our intention to ensure this site is accurate and well sourced. If you see any errors or have additional information to add please get in touch using the form*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Because brexit will be a disaster. It already is!. And anyone who cant see that is in denial.
> 
> Exactly. Putin wants brexit because it will bring chaos to this country & it will weaken the EU.
> 
> The article was shared by Peter Jukes, who along with the brilliant journalist Carole Cadwalladre has done top investigative journalism on Trump/brexit/Russia https://dialmformueller.com/ *Do you disagree with content of that article? * (not the god bit lol)


What makes you think I disagree with the article?



noushka05 said:


> Here you go @Magyarmum . Which errors have you found? https://brexposed.uk/brexits-nazi-propaganda-techniques/
> 
> *Have your say!*
> 
> *It's our intention to ensure this site is accurate and well sourced. If you see any errors or have additional information to add please get in touch using the form*[/QUOTE
> 
> Perhaps you didn't read my post properly I mentioned nothing about errors only that it seemed strange that someone who only has a following of 20 people could produce such a prolific website without additional help and funding.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> What makes you think I disagree with the article?


Apologies then if I jumped to the wrong conclusion MM x

_

Perhaps you didn't read my post properly I mentioned nothing about errors only that it seemed strange that someone who only has a following of 20 people could produce such a prolific website without additional help and funding._

This is the websites owners bio on twitter - I cre_ated http://brexposed.uk as a single place to present evidence against the liars, crooks and hypocrites that won #brexit, . _I don't think you'd need significant funding for this, after all hes only collecting information & putting it all together in one place as he says. Its merely a source of reference.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Apologies then if I jumped to the wrong conclusion MM x
> 
> _
> 
> Perhaps you didn't read my post properly I mentioned nothing about errors only that it seemed strange that someone who only has a following of 20 people could produce such a prolific website without additional help and funding._
> 
> This is the websites owners bio on twitter - I cre_ated http://brexposed.uk as a single place to present evidence against the liars, crooks and hypocrites that won #brexit, . _I don't think you'd need significant funding for this, after all hes only collecting information & putting it all together in one place as he says. Its merely a source of reference.


No problem! Just me being my usual distrusting self!


----------



## Elles

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...may-to-strike-new-brexit-deal-labour-can-back

Corbyn wants TM to go back to the Eu to change the deal to renegotiate a full customs union to secure trade and that if she does, labour will then back a deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...may-to-strike-new-brexit-deal-labour-can-back
> 
> Corbyn wants TM to go back to the Eu to change the deal to renegotiate a full customs union to secure trade and that if she does, labour will then back a deal.


I thought the deal was not renegotiable? He is asking the impossible.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> I thought the deal was not renegotiable? He is asking the impossible.


Dunno, that might be a deal in the direction the Eu would like to go. Maybe they'll see it as TM's deal with a cherry on top.


----------



## KittenKong

I think Corbyn's pro-Brexit views are well known. This is an interesting challenge though.

As much as I'm dismayed at Corbyn and Labour in general it's encouraging to learn they're still resisting the Theresa May deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-brexit-deal-labour-can-back?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Dunno, that might be a deal in the direction the Eu would like to go. Maybe they'll see it as TM's deal with a cherry on top.


*Juncker: 'no room whatsoever' to renegotiate Brexit deal*
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...no-room-whatsoever-to-renegotiate-brexit-deal

*Brexit: EU leaders dismiss talk of renegotiating draft agreement*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-46228454


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I think Corbyn's pro-Brexit views are well known. This is an interesting challenge though.
> 
> As much as I'm dismayed at Corbyn and Labour in general it's encouraging to learn they're still resisting the Theresa May deal.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-brexit-deal-labour-can-back?CMP=share_btn_fb
> 
> View attachment 386456


Proof that some don't read anyone else's posts? :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...may-to-strike-new-brexit-deal-labour-can-back
> 
> Corbyn wants TM to go back to the Eu to change the deal to renegotiate a full customs union to secure trade and that if she does, labour will then back a deal.


He knows that isn't going to happen. He's trying to look like he can offer something as a Brexiteer Prime Minister that May can't in case he can force a GE. Both fanciful ideas.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> He knows that isn't going to happen. He's trying to look like he can offer something as a Brexiteer Prime Minister that May can't in case he can force a GE. Both fanciful ideas.


I agree, but arguably Corbyn's red lines differ considerably from May's, so there's a chance they might re-consider.

After all, he isn't the only one seeing many Brexiters in the Tory party believe May can go back and negotiate a "better" deal too. Something the Tory backing brexiters conveniently forget.


----------



## Magyarmum

Slightly off topic but an interesting article about missed GP appointments ---

https://www.theweek.co.uk/98700/why...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

I had to have a chuckle though when I read this ....

According to a study of more than 550,000 people conducted for The Lancet Public Health journal in 2017, "no-shows" were particularly common among two age groups - people aged 16 to 30,* and those older than 90.*

It's not a problem the Hungarian NHS has because unless you're booked into hospital for an operation or a specific treatment we don't have an appointment system - you just turn up and wait your turn!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I agree, but arguably Corbyn's red lines differ considerably from May's, so there's a chance they might re-consider.
> 
> After all, he isn't the only one seeing many Brexiters in the Tory party believe May can go back and negotiate a "better" deal too. Something the Tory backing brexiters conveniently forget.


Corbyn is proposing a full customs union but with the UK allowed to do its own trade deals. The EU would not agree to that; it's better than members get. (And if he wants no border in Ireland and frictionless trade he'll need membership of a single market too. In effect he'll negotiate changing "the" to "a" in both cases, and nothing else at all.)

The Tory Brexiteers' 'better deal' is a backstop from which we can unilaterally walk away any time we want. That isn't a backstop and isn't going to happen either.

It's time they realised that May really has got as much as she can, that Corbyn most definitely isn't going to get any more - unless it's Brino - and move on. Firstly by ruling out the only thing worse than everything else, which is a No Deal Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Some things don't change.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It's time they realised that May really has got as much as she can, that Corbyn most definitely isn't going to get any more - unless it's Brino - and move on. Firstly by ruling out the only thing worse than everything else, which is a No Deal Brexit.


I respectfully disagree with much of this. Accepting May's deal will be as detrimental, if not more so. The only "advantage" of it is maintaining the status quo more or less for another 18months or so. That's an additional 18 months of worry for citizens from other EU countries and for former EU UK citizens etc. etc.

Accepting May's deal will also deliver her new found strength in an increasingly hostile environment that would make Thatcher's reign appear kind and compassionate in comparison.

At least if her deal is rejected, and it is positive Labour continue to oppose it along with the DUP there's a chance May will be finally ousted and relegated to the back benches deprived of her Henry VIII powers. Parliament are unlikely to back retracting Article 50 nor a no deal crash out. No further negotiations, a People's Vote could be possible.

I can imagine May will try and exercise her Henry VIII powers if they vote her deal down, arguing as per usual it's in the "National Interest" to go along with it. I'd love to see her try!

I'll never back, nor accept the loss of my rights as an EU citizen at Theresa May's pleasure. Not in a million years.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Some things don't change.
> View attachment 386466


Rather a stupid thing to say considering the only people likely to remember will be in their 80's now!


----------



## stockwellcat.

See post below
|
|
|
v


----------



## stockwellcat.

I found a link to the actual newspaper article here: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1...ing-churchill-claims-gestapo-in-87338571.html which is readable.

You have to remember this was just after the 2nd world war and there was a grand coalition in Parliament and the socialist parties where wanting to gain power from what I have read of the news article and Churchill announced he would fight the General Electon as leader of the National Government as a Conservative. Yes Churchill was a Conservative MP/PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Some things don't change.
> View attachment 386466


If you read the article here https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1...ing-churchill-claims-gestapo-in-87338571.html

It is Churchill a Conservative MP/PM who was leading a National Government warning about the Socialist Parties. See my post above and read the actual news article which is on the link above.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Corbyn has chosen to defy his party members calling for a second referendum according to the FT and other newspapers and ignore the recent poll and is going to instead pressurise May into going back to Brussels and ask to renegotiate the deal so we stay in a Customs Union. He knows this won't happen.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...pects-changes-to-her-brexit-deal-895226.html#


----------



## KittenKong

Says the man who's done such a good job of running the railways, the most expensive in the EU for a lousy service other countries wouldn't tolerate, let alone charge extortionate fares for.

Someone suggested he should be put in charge of Brexit.

The UK would have schengen and the Euro by now...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386522
> View attachment 386523
> View attachment 386524


This has nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some Newspaper Headlines to get your teeth into this morning...

*Express*









*Sky News*









The Government is to intensify putting no deal preparations into operation.

*Telegraph*


















That's right. May is being urged to suspend the meaningful vote.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 386554
> 
> 
> That's right. May is being urged to suspend the meaningful vote.


Would she dare postpone it a second time seeing the rightful stick she received the first time?

I think she'll be more likely to try and implement her plan, "In the national interest" if they vote against it.

I would love to see her try and hopefully have the book thrown at her.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Would she dare postpone it a second time seeing the rightful stick she received the first time?
> 
> I think she'll be more likely to try and implement her plan, "In the national interest" if they vote against it.
> 
> I would love to see her try and hopefully have the book thrown at her.


She is being urged to delay the Brexit vote further. Read the wording. It is not her decision. She is being urged to.

She can and will delay it if she chooses to listen to those urging her to. She is the one in power with little to no strong opposition. Corbyn is weak and feeble (lacking strength of character).


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> No problem! Just me being my usual distrusting self!


Can't fault you for that.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Rather a stupid thing to say considering the only people likely to remember will be in their 80's now!





stockwellcat. said:


> I found a link to the actual newspaper article here: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1...ing-churchill-claims-gestapo-in-87338571.html which is readable.
> 
> You have to remember this was just after the 2nd world war and there was a grand coalition in Parliament and the socialist parties where wanting to gain power from what I have read of the news article and Churchill announced he would fight the General Electon as leader of the National Government as a Conservative. Yes Churchill was a Conservative MP/PM.
> View attachment 386487
> 
> 
> View attachment 386486


I think the point is the tories along with their mates in the media have always used the same scaremongering tactics to render the opposition unelectable.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Would she dare postpone it a second time seeing the rightful stick she received the first time?


I wouldn't put anything past her. Our democracy is slipping away from us.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Some Newspaper Headlines to get your teeth into this morning...
> 
> *Express*
> View attachment 386551
> 
> 
> *Sky News*
> View attachment 386552
> 
> 
> The Government is to intensify putting no deal preparations into operation.
> 
> *Telegraph*
> View attachment 386553
> 
> 
> View attachment 386554
> 
> 
> That's right. May is being urged to suspend the meaningful vote.


Just remember. No deal is what YOU wanted


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Remainers can't handle the truth about the EU *
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/22/remainers-cant-handle-truth-eu/amp/

*Why aren't Remainers in the dock for breaking referendum rules?*
https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/...-breaking-referendum-rules-brexit-crisis/amp/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Just remember. No deal is what YOU wanted


Yep and it is becoming more likely as everyday passes unless the withdrawal agreement is passed and made law.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I respectfully disagree with much of this. Accepting May's deal will be as detrimental, if not more so. The only "advantage" of it is maintaining the status quo more or less for another 18months or so. That's an additional 18 months of worry for citizens from other EU countries and for former EU UK citizens etc. etc.
> 
> Accepting May's deal will also deliver her new found strength in an increasingly hostile environment that would make Thatcher's reign appear kind and compassionate in comparison.
> 
> At least if her deal is rejected, and it is positive Labour continue to oppose it along with the DUP there's a chance May will be finally ousted and relegated to the back benches deprived of her Henry VIII powers. Parliament are unlikely to back retracting Article 50 nor a no deal crash out. No further negotiations, a People's Vote could be possible.
> 
> I can imagine May will try and exercise her Henry VIII powers if they vote her deal down, arguing as per usual it's in the "National Interest" to go along with it. I'd love to see her try!
> 
> I'll never back, nor accept the loss of my rights as an EU citizen at Theresa May's pleasure. Not in a million years.


Hold on; I didn't say that May's deal was any good, merely that she got the best she can - though admittedly the unspoken suffix to that is "from a Brexiteer perspective" which was, after all, her brief.

The only direction in which Corbyn could move the negotiations is towards Brino, as he would soon find out if he ever got the chance.

I don't quite share your somewhat vituperative view of May - though I certainly don't like how she has tried to circumvent Parliament to get her own way and a place in history - but I don't want her deal to go through. I want to see what the People think now that they have facts on the table rather than hopes, lies and impossible promises.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Yep and it is becoming more likely as everyday passes unless the withdrawal agreement is passed and made law.


I agree. And when project fear becomes reality, who will you blame SWC? Remoaners? The labour party/Corbyn? Or will you say its the EU 'punishing us'? Maybe you will have the balls to own it. We'll see.

I bet you can't wait to be consuming this lot.
*
What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?*
The European Union prohibits many food additives and various drugs that are widely used in American foods.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/well/eat/food-additives-banned-europe-united-states.html


----------



## noushka05

*Watch:* Gary voted leave, he wanted to feel more proud to feel British. But he has now changed his mind. 
He's a #RemainerNow He has noticed the increase in prices since the vote and also the opportunities brexit will take from next generation. 
He says it's ok to change your mind


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080578036880289798
..........................................


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Hold on; I didn't say that May's deal was any good, merely that she got the best she can - though admittedly the unspoken suffix to that is "from a Brexiteer perspective" which was, after all, her brief.
> 
> The only direction in which Corbyn could move the negotiations is towards Brino, as he would soon find out if he ever got the chance.
> 
> I don't quite share your somewhat vituperative view of May - though I certainly don't like how she has tried to circumvent Parliament to get her own way and a place in history - but I don't want her deal to go through. I want to see what the People think now that they have facts on the table rather hopes, lies and impossible promises.


Apologies Arnie, seems I misunderstood your post.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I agree. And when project fear becomes reality, who will you blame SWC? Remoaners? The labour party/Corbyn? Or will you say its the EU 'punishing us'? Maybe you will have the balls to own it. We'll see.
> 
> I bet you can't wait to be consuming this lot.
> *
> What Foods Are Banned in Europe but Not Banned in the U.S.?*
> The European Union prohibits many food additives and various drugs that are widely used in American foods.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/well/eat/food-additives-banned-europe-united-states.html


Unlike you noushka I don't have the gift of being able to look into the future. 

You go on about American foods what about New Zealand foods and Australian Foods or is it because they are trying to negotiate a deal with the EU they are now exempt for some odd bizzare reason? Oh lets not forget the EU will soon have Whale meat available thanks to the Japan-EU deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Speaking of Tories blaming others for their own incompetence, this is absolutely pathetic.

The man who receives annual double percentage figure pay increases for a job he's completely useless at blames the unions!!!

Perhaps he wants to see trainspotters or other railway enthusiasts to volunteer driving the trains for free.

They don't need experts/trained staff you see. After all they're fed up of experts.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Unlike you noushka I don't have the gift of being able to look into the future.
> 
> You go on about American foods what about New Zealand foods and Australian Foods or is it because they are trying to negotiate a deal with the EU they are now exempt for some odd bizzare reason? Oh lets not forget the EU will soon have Whale meat available thanks to the Japan-EU deal.


My _gift _is called _critical thinking_.

Any foods from America, Australia, NZ have to meet the EUs higher standards. Once we leave, we will be forced to lower our standards to meet theirs if we are to compete. The EU opposes whaling - http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nat...ies/whales_dolphins/international_whaling.htm We would have a better chance of stopping Japan with a progressive government, progressive MEPs by staying IN the EU.


----------



## noushka05

*Prof Tanja Bueltmann*‏:

There can be no doubt anymore: the British government is going all Trump. No difference between this and Trump's "migrant caravan" rhetoric and posturing anymore.

This, Trump behaviour, is your future, UK, if Brexit goes ahead


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The EU opposes whaling - http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nat...ies/whales_dolphins/international_whaling.htm


I know but Japan doesn't. The EU agreed to quietly have a word with Japan over whaling. No exactly going to stop it are they. The EU bowed down to most of Japan's demands and the EU let Japan have what it wanted in desperation for a deal before the UK could strike one with Japan. Whale meat will soon be flooding the EU market place.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


>


Yep.
To stop the illegal migrants from trying to break into the UK.

You sound shocked noushka. It was announced a few days ago two large patrol vessels would be patrolling the UK's coast line. The French have stepped up operations as well to stop the migrants. In other news 2 people where arrested in Manchester last night in relation to arranging for migrants to come to the UK (so the NCA are trying to arrest the gang doing this) across the English Channel.

*Two men arrested in Manchester on suspicion of arranging movement of migrants across the Channel*
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-men-arrested-manchester-suspicion-15622547


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I know but Japan doesn't. The EU agreed to quietly have a word with Japan over whaling. No exactly going to stop it are they. The EU bowed down to most of Japan's demands and the EU let Japan have what it wanted in desperation for a deal before the UK could strike one with Japan. Whale meat will soon be flooding the EU market place.


Can you provide references please? ( & no, I don't mean your personal references to be clear this time)



stockwellcat. said:


> Yep.
> To stop the illegal migrants from trying to break into the UK.
> 
> You sound shocked noushka. It was announced a few days ago two large patrol vessels would be patrolling the UK's coast line. The French have stepped up operations as well to stop the migrants. In other news 2 people where arrested in Manchester last night in relation to arranging for migrants to come to the UK (so the NCA are trying to arrest the gang doing this) across the English Channel.
> 
> *Two men arrested in Manchester on suspicion of arranging movement of migrants across the Channel*
> https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-men-arrested-manchester-suspicion-15622547


'Illegal migrants'. Says it all.

And sadly no I'm not shocked. I'm disgusted.

*Green Party*‏. There are easier answers:

1) stop stoking fear & hate

2) remove the 'fortress Europe' legislative wall which forces people into boats

3) stop arming and funding wars which cause mass displacement

4) welcome refugees - as is your international obligation.

.......................................................................


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Unlike you noushka I don't have the gift of being able to look into the future.
> 
> You go on about American foods what about New Zealand foods and Australian Foods or is it because they are trying to negotiate a deal with the EU they are now exempt for some odd bizzare reason? Oh lets not forget the EU will soon have Whale meat available thanks to the Japan-EU deal.


Have you ever tasted whale meat?

It's revolting! I can still remember as a child of about 4 or 5 being served in the Odeon restaurant, a disgusting beetroot red piece of what I thought was meat, only to find it was fish. Yuk!

http://www.recipespastandpresent.org.uk/wartime/whale-meat/


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Can you provide references please? ( & no, I don't mean your personal references to be clear this time)


To avoid repeating myself and doing what you do best "go around in circles" please read back through the thread as there are links to the Japan - EU deal.



> 'Illegal migrants'. Says it all.


Yes illegal and breaking into the UK.


> And sadly no I'm not shocked. I'm disgusted.


So you have Merkhel's mentality, "come in everyone is welcome. No passport, no identity documents and we have nowhere to put you" but please come in and add to the problems we have already in this country eg homelessness etc. We don't know who you are but you are welcome.



> *Green Party*‏. There are easier answers:
> 
> 1) stop stoking fear & hate
> 
> 2) remove the 'fortress Europe' legislative wall which forces people into boats
> 
> 3) stop arming and funding wars which cause mass displacement
> 
> 4) welcome refugees - as is your international obligation.
> 
> .......................................................................


Meanwhile in the real world.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Have you ever tasted whale meat?
> 
> It's revolting I can still remember as a child of about 4 or 5 being served in the Odeon restaurant, a disgusting beetroot red piece of what I thought was meat, only to find it was fish. Yuk!
> 
> http://www.recipespastandpresent.org.uk/wartime/whale-meat/


Nope and have no desire to


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Can you provide references please? ( & no, I don't mean your personal references to be clear this time)
> 
> 'Illegal migrants'. Says it all.
> 
> And sadly no I'm not shocked. I'm disgusted.
> 
> *Green Party*‏. There are easier answers:
> 
> 1) stop stoking fear & hate
> 
> 2) remove the 'fortress Europe' legislative wall which forces people into boats
> 
> 3) stop arming and funding wars which cause mass displacement
> 
> 4) welcome refugees - as is your international obligation.
> 
> .......................................................................


*"welcome refugees - as is your international obligation".*

In that case perhaps you should remind a few other EU countries as well!

https://www.dw.com/en/malta-opens-i...-rescue-boats-beset-by-seasickness/a-46938712

https://www.thelocal.at/20180701/in-austria-migrant-trainees-face-explusion-as-attitudes-harden

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-drowning-charity-mediterranean-a8423261.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-crisis-fight-explained/

https://www.dw.com/en/german-interi...ion-laws-in-wake-of-amberg-attacks/a-46921740


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> *"welcome refugees - as is your international obligation".*
> 
> In that case perhaps you should remind a few other EU countries as well!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/malta-opens-i...-rescue-boats-beset-by-seasickness/a-46938712
> 
> https://www.thelocal.at/20180701/in-austria-migrant-trainees-face-explusion-as-attitudes-harden
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-drowning-charity-mediterranean-a8423261.html
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-crisis-fight-explained/
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/german-interi...ion-laws-in-wake-of-amberg-attacks/a-46921740


Oh they are starting to sound like Trump aren't they?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Have you ever tasted whale meat?
> 
> It's revolting! I can still remember as a child of about 4 or 5 being served in the Odeon restaurant, a disgusting beetroot red piece of what I thought was meat, only to find it was fish. Yuk!
> 
> http://www.recipespastandpresent.org.uk/wartime/whale-meat/


Whales aren't fish.

ompus


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Whales aren't fish.
> 
> ompus


I know!

I actually should have said "only to find it tasted like fish" .


----------



## O2.0

I need to find whoever tagged me in this thread and write them a strongly worded PM because now I'm reading this damned thing and it's shrinking my brain cells :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

Just a quick comment on the NYT article on foods banned in the EU but not in the US. The article used examples that are all in things like highly processed snack foods and sodas like coke and mountain dew. Not to be smug, but if you're consuming shit like that, what do you expect? Even without the added poisons the US adds you're still eating crap that's not good for you. At what point does personal responsibility to make intelligent choices about what you consume come in?


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Hilarious

*Nicola Sturgeon: I'll protect Scotland's place in Europe*
https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...-protect-scotland-s-place-in-europe-1-4850074

Just a little wake up call for Sturgeon.
1) She doesn't he the power to do that as Scotland only has devolved powers and is still governed by Westminster.
2) Scotland is not in the EU as an independent country the UK is as a collective of devolved powers governed by Westminster (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland).

So back to the drawing Sturgeon with your empty promises.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I know!
> 
> I actually should have said "only to find it tasted like fish" .


I guessed that. I just had a pedant moment!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I guessed that. I just had a pedant moment!


Oh dear that sounds serious!

Was it painful?


----------



## Magyarmum

O2.0 said:


> I need to find whoever tagged me in this thread and write them a strongly worded PM because now I'm reading this damned thing and it's shrinking my brain cells :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Just a quick comment on the NYT article on foods banned in the EU but not in the US. The article used examples that are all in things like highly processed snack foods and sodas like coke and mountain dew. Not to be smug, but if you're consuming shit like that, what do you expect? Even without the added poisons the US adds you're still eating crap that's not good for you. At what point does personal responsibility to make intelligent choices about what you consume come in?


Exactly!

Thought you might like this - after all when all around you are freaking out and having the vapours, it's important to keep a sense of humour! 
-
_*The Daily Mash*_

*Greggs' vegan sausage roll 'is against the will of the people'*
3rd January 2019











*THE introduction of vegan sausage rolls by Greggs could be the last straw for disaffected Northern communities, it has been warned.*

The imposition of the meatless, dairy-free pastry product on those who already feel 'left behind' by Westminster could lead to civil unrest and sausage riots.

Yorkshire resident Norman Steele said: "The EU referendum didn't specifically mention sausage rolls, but we certainly didn't vote for another stab in the back by the metropolitan elite.

"If you talk to ordinary folk they're just worried about their blandly comforting pork tubes dying out. No one wants to lose their traditional way of sausage.

"Gregg's shelves are overcrowded as it is. That's not veganist. We just don't think soya protein substitute really tastes of anything."

The government said it was addressing the issue with plans for emergency airlifts of the cheapest sausage rolls that can be found in pork-loving EU states such as Germany.

Remain voter Tom Logan said: "You can't fight progress. I'd be happy to try exotic sausage rolls made with wild boar or octopus. Anything that makes me feel sophisticated, really."


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU-Japan Agreement states this on Japanese Whaling:
> 
> View attachment 385226
> 
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...ic-partnership-agreement/agreement-explained/
> 
> The EU Japan Trade Deal is being fast tracked and will enter into force in February 2019:
> http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1954


Found it, can you point out where it says the EU will now be flooded with whale meat? I've looked but can't find anything.



stockwellcat. said:


> To avoid repeating myself and doing what you do best "go around in circles" please read back through the thread as there are links to the Japan - EU deal.
> 
> Yes illegal and breaking into the UK.
> So you have Merkhel's mentality, "come in everyone is welcome. No passport, no identity documents and we have nowhere to put you" but please come in and add to the problems we have already in this country eg homelessness etc. We don't know who you are but you are welcome.
> 
> Meanwhile in the real world.


What a heartless attitude towards desperate human beings. And I take having 'Merkels mentality' as compliment in this context. I'd be mortified if I had Trumps mentality!

The tories who you support are responsible for the homeless crisis

_
700 people died last year sleeping rough on the streets.

70 people have tried to cross the channel to the UK since November.

Guess which one sajid javid is calling a crisis?_

You are playing right into this governments hands!



Magyarmum said:


> *"welcome refugees - as is your international obligation".*
> 
> In that case perhaps you should remind a few other EU countries as well!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/malta-opens-i...-rescue-boats-beset-by-seasickness/a-46938712
> 
> https://www.thelocal.at/20180701/in-austria-migrant-trainees-face-explusion-as-attitudes-harden
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-drowning-charity-mediterranean-a8423261.html
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-crisis-fight-explained/
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/german-interi...ion-laws-in-wake-of-amberg-attacks/a-46921740


More whataboutery:Watching. If you think I'd defend any country which doesnt treat desperate people fleeing terror & conflict with compassion, then you are sadly mistaken. But we were talking about the refugees that crossed the channel to come here & the despicable attitude of OUR government!



O2.0 said:


> I need to find whoever tagged me in this thread and write them a strongly worded PM because now I'm reading this damned thing and it's shrinking my brain cells :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> Just a quick comment on the NYT article on foods banned in the EU but not in the US. The article used examples that are all in things like highly processed snack foods and sodas like coke and mountain dew. Not to be smug, but if you're consuming shit like that, what do you expect? Even without the added poisons the US adds you're still eating crap that's not good for you. At what point does personal responsibility to make intelligent choices about what you consume come in?


It also mentioned drugs used in livestock farming.

*Farm Animal Drugs*
The European Union also bans some drugs that are used on farm animals in the United States, citing health concerns. These drugs include bovine growth hormone, which the United States dairy industry uses to increase milk production. The European Union also does not allow the drug ractopamine, used in the United States to increase weight gain in pigs, cattle and turkeys before slaughter, saying that "risks to human health cannot be ruled out." An F.D.A. spokeswoman said the drugs are safe.

It didn't mention another crucial difference between the EU & the USA. 82 pesticides used in the USA are banned in the EU because we go by the precautionary principle.
This is what brexit is about to the tories. Deregulation of standards. It will be a race to the bottom. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> More whataboutery:Watching. If you think I'd defend any country which doesnt treat desperate people fleeing terror & conflict with compassion, then you are sadly mistaken. But we were talking about the refugees that crossed the channel to come here & the despicable attitude of OUR government!


Why do they have to come to our country instead of the first safe one they visit. That is why people in the UK do not want them over here and sent back to France, which for all intents and purposes is a safe haven for them if they allow it to be.

Why are these people further risking their lives to try and cross the channel instead of asking for help in mainland Europe. They are clearly not asylum seekers they are Economic ILLEGAL immigrants. They illegally immigrating into the country without correct documentation.

I am all for legal immigration, I am a product of it (norwegian father, english mother), as it provides opportunities, jobs, a skilled workforce. Do not think everyone lives in unicorn land where everyone wants hugs, kisses and will be on their merry way helping our economy onto bigger and better things.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Oh dear that sounds serious!
> 
> Was it painful?


It gets easier with practice!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> 700 people died last year sleeping rough on the streets.
> 
> 70 people have tried to cross the channel to the UK since November.
> 
> Guess which one sajid javid is calling a crisis?


The one that helps his leadership bid?

Very few Tory party members sleeping rough!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Found it, can you point out where it says the EU will now be flooded with whale meat? I've looked but can't find anything.
> 
> What a heartless attitude towards desperate human beings. And I take having 'Merkels mentality' as compliment in this context. I'd be mortified if I had Trumps mentality!
> 
> The tories who you support are responsible for the homeless crisis
> 
> _
> 700 people died last year sleeping rough on the streets.
> 
> 70 people have tried to cross the channel to the UK since November.
> 
> Guess which one sajid javid is calling a crisis?_
> 
> You are playing right into this governments hands!
> 
> More whataboutery:Watching. If you think I'd defend any country which doesnt treat desperate people fleeing terror & conflict with compassion, then you are sadly mistaken. But we were talking about the refugees that crossed the channel to come here & the despicable attitude of OUR government!
> 
> It also mentioned drugs used in livestock farming.
> 
> *Farm Animal Drugs*
> The European Union also bans some drugs that are used on farm animals in the United States, citing health concerns. These drugs include bovine growth hormone, which the United States dairy industry uses to increase milk production. The European Union also does not allow the drug ractopamine, used in the United States to increase weight gain in pigs, cattle and turkeys before slaughter, saying that "risks to human health cannot be ruled out." An F.D.A. spokeswoman said the drugs are safe.
> 
> It didn't mention another crucial difference between the EU & the USA. 82 pesticides used in the USA are banned in the EU because we go by the precautionary principle.
> This is what brexit is about to the tories. Deregulation of standards. It will be a race to the bottom. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs


Where do you get your figures from Noushka. Over 100 have tried since beginning of December and over 539 have attempted since January 2018. It is gangs charging people to smuggle them across to the UK promising them a better life when people of this country are homeless. Shelter says over 400 people have died living rough not the exaggerated 700 you have said. You are seriously mis quoting official figures.

They are illegal because they aren't using the official channels to enter the UK and are technically breaking into the UK.

Call me heartless or whatever you want noushka it is the plain truth. Illegal migrants are trying to get over here because they are being told in the EU by other European countries to go home and stop trying to get into Europe. The UK is doing the same.


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> It also mentioned drugs used in livestock farming.


Which I don't eat either so.....


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Thought you might like this - after all when all around you are freaking out and having the vapours, it's important to keep a sense of humour!
> -
> _*The Daily Mash*_
> 
> *Greggs' vegan sausage roll 'is against the will of the people'*
> 3rd January 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *THE introduction of vegan sausage rolls by Greggs could be the last straw for disaffected Northern communities, it has been warned.*
> 
> The imposition of the meatless, dairy-free pastry product on those who already feel 'left behind' by Westminster could lead to civil unrest and sausage riots.
> 
> Yorkshire resident Norman Steele said: "The EU referendum didn't specifically mention sausage rolls, but we certainly didn't vote for another stab in the back by the metropolitan elite.
> 
> "If you talk to ordinary folk they're just worried about their blandly comforting pork tubes dying out. No one wants to lose their traditional way of sausage.
> 
> "Gregg's shelves are overcrowded as it is. That's not veganist. We just don't think soya protein substitute really tastes of anything."
> 
> The government said it was addressing the issue with plans for emergency airlifts of the cheapest sausage rolls that can be found in pork-loving EU states such as Germany.
> 
> Remain voter Tom Logan said: "You can't fight progress. I'd be happy to try exotic sausage rolls made with wild boar or octopus. Anything that makes me feel sophisticated, really."


I saw their twitter advert for these vegan sausage rolls and thought it was hilarious, they have marketed it as very tounge in cheek. Also it'll bring in some dough (excuse the pun) with it being veganuary, have had a few posts on instagram go on about it being half decent.
This post comes from someone from the North


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> *Why do they have to come to our country instead of the first safe one they visit.* That is why people in the UK do not want them over here and sent back to France, which for all intents and purposes is a safe haven for them if they allow it to be.
> 
> Why are these people further risking their lives to try and cross the channel instead of asking for help in mainland Europe. They are clearly not asylum seekers they are Economic ILLEGAL immigrants. They illegally immigrating into the country without correct documentation.
> 
> I am all for legal immigration, I am a product of it (norwegian father, english mother), as it provides opportunities, jobs, a skilled workforce. Do not think everyone lives in unicorn land where everyone wants hugs, kisses and will be on their merry way helping our economy onto bigger and better things.


The research I've seen gives as the first reason the fact that they have relatives here. The second is that they speak English.

I can see the point of seeking asylum in the first safe country they reach, but that is of course very convenient for an island well removed from any of the places that are likely to produce such asylum seekers, and very bad for the ones immediately next door.

How about we change the rules so that they are also allowed to apply for asylum in those countries that have contributed to the circumstances giving rise to their refugee status?


----------



## Elles

Well we’ve been told what’s in cheap rubbish from the USA, more fool us if we import it, or eat it. Edwina Currie said there was salmonella in eggs and practically destroyed the egg industry and ended her career. It’s as likely that sensible people in the U.K. will buy and eat contaminated produce from the USA as the Eu will import whale meat because they’re trading with japan. Less likely probably.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 I just fact checked with Shelter and the amount that have died sleeping rough in 2018 is around 449 and around 320,000 people are homeless this figure is from research done in December 2018.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-will-stop-uk-returning-asylum-seekers-to-europe/03/01/


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The research I've seen gives as the first reason the fact that they have relatives here. The second is that they speak English.
> 
> I can see the point of seeking asylum in the first safe country they reach, but that is of course very convenient for an island well removed from any of the places that are likely to produce such asylum seekers, and very bad for the ones immediately next door.
> 
> How about we change the rules so that they are also allowed to apply for asylum in those countries that have contributed to the circumstances giving rise to their refugee status?


That would be a bit difficult to assess. it Isn't what happens currently. People wishing for legal status in Europe, unfortunately do have to go through legal channels and that doesn't include in a dinghy.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> How about we change the rules so that they are also allowed to apply for asylum in those countries that have contributed to the circumstances giving rise to their refugee status?


If you use that argument then anyone could probably go anywhere in the world. However I do understand that line of thinking.



Arnie83 said:


> The research I've seen gives as the first reason the fact that they have relatives here. The second is that they speak English.


English is a very common language throughout mainland europe so I don't see that as an excuse. I would then question as to how their relatives got to the UK. I know that sounds cynical and harsh but the question needs to be asked.



Arnie83 said:


> I can see the point of seeking asylum in the first safe country they reach, but that is of course very convenient for an island well removed from any of the places that are likely to produce such asylum seekers, and very bad for the ones immediately next door


It is convenient for us and we can't help Geography. However we can't have swathes of people illegally travelling through borders all over Europe just to get to the honey pot at the end where they treat you a little better than where you have already gone through.

Sorry for not replying to your post in a rational order I haven't had enough coffee today


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why do they have to come to our country instead of the first safe one they visit. That is why people in the UK do not want them over here and sent back to France, which for all intents and purposes is a safe haven for them if they allow it to be.
> 
> Why are these people further risking their lives to try and cross the channel instead of asking for help in mainland Europe. They are clearly not asylum seekers they are Economic ILLEGAL immigrants. They illegally immigrating into the country without correct documentation.
> 
> I am all for legal immigration, I am a product of it (norwegian father, english mother), as it provides opportunities, jobs, a skilled workforce. Do not think everyone lives in unicorn land where everyone wants hugs, kisses and will be on their merry way helping our economy onto bigger and better things.





stockwellcat. said:


> Where do you get your figures from Noushka. Over 100 have tried since beginning of December and over 539 have attempted since January 2018. It is gangs charging people to smuggle them across to the UK promising them a better life when people of this country are homeless. Shelter says over 400 people have died living rough not the exaggerated 700 you have said. You are seriously mis quoting official figures.
> 
> They are illegal because they aren't using the official channels to enter the UK and are technically breaking into the UK.
> 
> Call me heartless or whatever you want noushka it is the plain truth. Illegal migrants are trying to get over here because they are being told in the EU by other European countries to go home and stop trying to get into Europe. The UK is doing the same.


I don't have time to address these at the moment, But will get back to them as soon as I get chance.



O2.0 said:


> Which I don't eat either so.....


You don't have to eat meat. Antibiotic resistance is a threat to us all. Its also about animal welfare. Ractopamine, for example, is a drug that raises the weight of pigs but can cause their bones to break and their motor functions to degenerate. Not nice.


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> You don't have to eat meat. Antibiotic resistance is a threat to us all. Its also about animal welfare. Ractopamine, for example, is a drug that raises the weight of pigs but can cause their bones to break and their motor functions to degenerate. Not nice.


Okay, then by that logic it shouldn't matter if US practices are allowed in the UK or not as they are destructive regardless. Which I agree with BTW. 
My point is that just because a government allows something doesn't mean I have to participate in it. 
There are many convincing reasons why the UK should not leave the EU (as are there convincing reasons why it should) but some of the arguments you make, like poisons in Mountain Dew and Twinkie cakes are just silly. People who choose to eat that way aren't worried about toxins in their food, and for those of us who do care, it's not a hardship to forgo a Twinkie LOL


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I don't have time to address these at the moment, But will get back to them as soon as I get chance.


Just to help guide you, @Magyarmum posted some news articles on what is happening with migrants in other European countries a few pages back (post 6883 https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/brexit-anyone-want-to-talk-about-it.497876/page-345) which some remainers chose to ignore and regarding the homeless there are many newspaper articles and shelter and crisis quoting 449 as the amount that have died in 2018 sleeping rough and 320,000 as an estimated figure of those that are homeless in the UK.


----------



## AlexPed2393

But I want my reply :Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh:Arghh


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said ....."I don't have time to address these at the moment, But will get back to them as soon as I get chance".

We'll all be waiting with bated breath"

Get the popcorn ready folks!


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> English is a very common language throughout mainland europe so I don't see that as an excuse. I would then question as to how their relatives got to the UK. I know that sounds cynical and harsh but the question needs to be asked.


Just reporting what the research found. (Can't remember where I saw it, unfortunately!)



AlexPed2393 said:


> It is convenient for us and we can't help Geography. However we can't have swathes of people illegally travelling through borders all over Europe just to get to the honey pot at the end where they treat you a little better than where you have already gone through.


You may be right,but I would like to see us taking in more displaced people rather than, as Javid seems to be doing, pointing out reasons why none of them should be here at all. Clearly our much vaunted post-Brexit 'global nation' outlook doesn't stretch as far as actually welcoming some of these people to our shores. Or, it seems, welcoming anyone unless they are deemed of use to us.


----------



## noushka05

O2.0 said:


> Okay, then by that logic it shouldn't matter if US practices are allowed in the UK or not as they are destructive regardless. Which I agree with BTW.
> My point is that just because a government allows something doesn't mean I have to participate in it.
> There are many convincing reasons why the UK should not leave the EU (as are there convincing reasons why it should) but some of the arguments you make, like poisons in Mountain Dew and Twinkie cakes are just silly. People who choose to eat that way aren't worried about toxins in their food, and for those of us who do care, it's not a hardship to forgo a Twinkie LOL


It matters to me if my country is flooded with low standard, dire welfare food. It matters to me if my country has to lower its own standards to compete. The animals don't get a choice not to participate. Poor people cant afford to buy organic. And how can anyone avoid the consequences of antibiotic resistance?. I posted the article because I thought it was interesting as it was in a US newspaper. I don't want to see a race to the bottom here.

UK food standards currently mirror those of the EU. The EU enforces stringent rules and regulations on food and the environment. These prohibit contentious agricultural products like chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-treated beef from entering EU markets, including the UK's.

However, Fox believes the UK should diverge from EU rules after Brexit in order to sign wide-ranging free trade deals with countries with lower standards.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lia...-food-standards-after-brexit-2018-9?r=UK&IR=T


----------



## Arnie83

O2.0 said:


> Okay, then by that logic it shouldn't matter if US practices are allowed in the UK or not as they are destructive regardless. Which I agree with BTW.
> My point is that just because a government allows something doesn't mean I have to participate in it.
> There are many convincing reasons why the UK should not leave the EU (as are there convincing reasons why it should) but some of the arguments you make, like poisons in Mountain Dew and Twinkie cakes are just silly. People who choose to eat that way aren't worried about toxins in their food, and for those of us who do care, it's not a hardship to forgo a Twinkie LOL


It's a difficult question, but don't you think that, within limits, we should try to save people from themselves. We do it with drugs, with high taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, and now on sugar ...

Re Brexit specifically, if we allow these sorts of foodstuffs into the UK, our regulations will immediately diverge from the EU. Trade will reduce and border checks will increase making the remainder more costly. And in the middle of Ireland ...


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It's a difficult question, but don't you think that, within limits, we should try to save people from themselves. We do it with drugs, with high taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, and now on sugar ...
> 
> Re Brexit specifically, if we allow these sorts of foodstuffs into the UK, our regulations will immediately diverge from the EU. Trade will reduce and border checks will increase making the remainder more costly. And in the middle of Ireland ...


Are we going to lower our standards to allow produce that would currently fail into the country? Everything I read says differently.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Just reporting what the research found. (Can't remember where I saw it, unfortunately!)
> 
> You may be right,but I would like to see us taking in more displaced people rather than, as Javid seems to be doing, pointing out reasons why none of them should be here at all. Clearly our much vaunted post-Brexit 'global nation' outlook doesn't stretch as far as actually welcoming some of these people to our shores. Or, it seems, welcoming anyone unless they are deemed of use to us.


I am not a fan of Javid who seems to politicise everything happening right now but that is his job at the end of the day.
The problem is that if they were truly displaced they would be happy to get support without taking so much risk going over the channel. I have the opinion that there are so many economical migrants mixed in with the few true asylum seekers that we are unable to tell which is which. This then means we have to eerrr on the sire of caution and treat those we are not sure of as asylum seekers.


----------



## O2.0

Arnie83 said:


> It's a difficult question, but don't you think that, within limits, we should try to save people from themselves. We do it with drugs, with high taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, and now on sugar ...


Oh gosh yes, it's a very difficult question.

Part of me agrees that yes, convenience foods, processed foods, unhealthy foods should be taxed. But another part of me stops and wonders if that's really helpful or if it ends up hurting those who need the help the most.

The idea of trying to save people from themselves in theory always sounds good, but in practice is fraught with problems. Who am I to decide what is right for one person? Or the government for that matter? I'm inherently distrustful of putting more power in the government's hands to decide what is and isn't healthy. 
I really would rather the people take that power for themselves, educate themselves and decide, based on their own lives, lifestyles and ethics, what they do and don't want to participate in.
I'm all for helping people make educated choices, but at some point we have to have the maturity to step back and allow folks to make whatever choice they make whether we agree with that choice or not.


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting but hardly surprising!

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/j...ks-transparency-letters-reveal-135014105.html


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> Interesting but hardly surprising!
> 
> https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/j...ks-transparency-letters-reveal-135014105.html


Just confirms to me that the EU is a bunch of corrupt, poncy old fools that are overpaid to protect their own arses, not their countries. This is one of the reasons I voted leave because of how blatantly they just do whatever they please


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Are we going to lower our standards to allow produce that would currently fail into the country? Everything I read says differently.


Dunno. Fox has said we won't lower our standards, but then politicians say a lot of things.

If we want a super duper trade deal with the USA I guess it depends on how good we are at negotiating and sticking to red lines! Does that fill you with confidence?


----------



## Elles

The Americans already produce meat that is free of whatever so it can sell abroad, like meat to China, Eu, Taiwan etc. Our market wouldn’t be that big that they couldn’t supply the U.K. according to whatever standards we want, if we do agree deals. Anyone would think the Eu don’t buy anything from the USA.


----------



## Satori

Light relief...


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just confirms to me that the EU is a bunch of corrupt, poncy old fools that are overpaid to protect their own arses, not their countries. This is one of the reasons I voted leave because of how blatantly they just do whatever they please


I don't recall much information coming from the UK side either. And as the article concludes ...

"The UK government's commitment to Brexit transparency has also come under scrutiny this week after it emerged the departments involved in negotiations are most likely to reject freedom of information requests."​
Corrupt, poncy overpaid old fools on both sides, it seems.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I don't recall much information coming from the UK side either. And as the article concludes ...
> 
> "The UK government's commitment to Brexit transparency has also come under scrutiny this week after it emerged the departments involved in negotiations are most likely to reject freedom of information requests."​
> Corrupt, poncy overpaid old fools on both sides, it seems.


 Agreed


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Americans already produce meat that is free of whatever so it can sell abroad, like meat to China, Eu, Taiwan etc. Our market wouldn't be that big that they couldn't supply the U.K. according to whatever standards we want, if we do agree deals. Anyone would think the Eu don't buy anything from the USA.


Indeed, but we are supposed to be using this fantastic trade deal with the US to compensate for the lost trade with the EU and see us soaring on free trade winds to the sunny uplands. If we keep the same regulations as we currently have, that is going to be hard to do.


----------



## Arnie83

No Deal Brexit planning continues to reassure everyone ...

*'No deal' Brexit ferry contractors copy conditions from 'takeaway' website*

The ferry company at the centre of a row over no deal Brexit planning is facing claims it used terms and conditions replicated from a takeaway delivery website.

Seaborne Freight was last week handed a £13m contract to lay on extra ferry crossings if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement.

One sentence under the "placing an order" section says it is the customer's responsibility to "thoroughly check the supplied goods before agreeing to pay for any meal/order".​
No Deal Brexit? What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> No Deal Brexit planning continues to reassure everyone ...
> 
> *'No deal' Brexit ferry contractors copy conditions from 'takeaway' website*
> 
> The ferry company at the centre of a row over no deal Brexit planning is facing claims it used terms and conditions replicated from a takeaway delivery website.
> 
> Seaborne Freight was last week handed a £13m contract to lay on extra ferry crossings if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement.
> 
> One sentence under the "placing an order" section says it is the customer's responsibility to "thoroughly check the supplied goods before agreeing to pay for any meal/order".​
> No Deal Brexit? What could possibly go wrong?


I'll have egg fried rice, crispy shredded beef and .... :Hilarious

I think we are being reassured that take aways will still get supplies keeping them open :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just confirms to me that the EU is a bunch of corrupt, poncy old fools that are overpaid to protect their own arses, not their countries. This is one of the reasons I voted leave because of how blatantly they just do whatever they please


And the Tory party led by Theresa May isn't?

I know which, "Corrupt poncy old fools" I'd rather ran this country.

It isn't Theresa May.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> And sadly no I'm not shocked. I'm disgusted.


Ditto, just as I am when some support the government's EU citizens settled status plan.

This comes as no surprise either.
People really do believe the conditioning of the media. From the other Brexit thread I'm on.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why do they have to come to our country instead of the first safe one they visit. That is why people in the UK do not want them over here and sent back to France, which for all intents and purposes is a safe haven for them if they allow it to be.
> 
> Why are these people further risking their lives to try and cross the channel instead of asking for help in mainland Europe. They are clearly not asylum seekers they are Economic ILLEGAL immigrants. They illegally immigrating into the country without correct documentation.
> 
> I am all for legal immigration, I am a product of it (norwegian father, english mother), as it provides opportunities, jobs, a skilled workforce. Do not think everyone lives in unicorn land where everyone wants hugs, kisses and will be on their merry way helping our economy onto bigger and better things.


It's a reasonable question seeing most of the UK population are saying the same thing.

I sometimes wonder if they are sinister forces at work somewhere, by whom I don't know. This latest "Crisis" is a bit too co-incidenal seeing it's come at a time Theresa May's trying to get support for her Brexit plan. We know how Brexiters blame the EU for any immigration and everything else that goes wrong.

And at election times they tends to be a terrorist incident, not only in the UK of course. It happened in 2017 of course...

And, are these "migrants", I prefer to call them people, not conditioned into believing the UK is the place to go as it's the best, in much the same way people here are brought up to believe they are superior to everyone else, (at least that's how they tried to bring me up and teach me at school-no wonder I rebelled), through "winning" two World Wars and one World Cup?

And why should citizens from other EU countries be targeted as potentially hostile after living and working in the UK for decades?

What next, none white people being branded as "Immigrants" despite being born in the UK? Will they have to be "branded" to prove their country of origin?

Don't forget, most rascists don't consider "Non white" people as British, even those born and bred in the UK.

The National Front who surrounded themselves behind Union flags just as Theresa May and the EDL do nowadays wanted a "White Britain" in the '70s".

Theresa May's hostile environment policy nearly created something similar through the Windrush scandal.


----------



## Elles

I support the government’s settled status plan in the event of Brexit, especially a no deal brexit with an end to FOM as was voted for. There Is little alternative and compares well to other countries.. I also support increased security at borders, ports and airports and more money being put into serving the needs of refugees and processing their applications swiftly and efficiently. I don’t support spending money on booklets telling people not to use words with ‘man’ in them. 

I’m not keen on the word migrant being used to label refugees. To me a refugee is in fear of death, incarceration, or torture and has little choice other than to run. A migrant is someone with a choice and not in imminent danger.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is the end game now.

A clean break brexit looks more likely than ever now, better known as no deal.










If Parliament reject the deal then it is no deal just as the EU leaders have repeatedly said since late October early November.

Corbyn won't get his demands of a permenant Customs Union.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Rather a stupid thing to say considering the only people likely to remember will be in their 80's now!


 . . . and will likely have dementia so won't remember what they had for breakfast, let alone what happened in the '45 election.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

When returning home to Greece, with British Airways on New Year's Eve, I was informed by staff at Heathrow that I needed a VISA to travel as I had a one way ticket! When I pointed out that as a European citizen I did not need a visa to travel to another European country I was told to "CALM DOWN"
I was told the system was informing them that I needed to prove residence or have a visa or I would mot be allowed to travel!
On pointing out we ie Britain was still a member of the EU and that they should check their facts I was again treated to a "Madam it is what the system says"
Luckily I had my residency card with me and was told that as I had the" relevant paperwork" I could fly. 
BE AWARE always carry your residency papers with you. it has started already!


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why do they have to come to our country instead of the first safe one they visit. That is why people in the UK do not want them over here and sent back to France, which for all intents and purposes is a safe haven for them if they allow it to b


Only a tiny fraction try to come here. France is not a safe haven for them, the French police are treating them brutally.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Why are these people further risking their lives to try and cross the channel instead of asking for help in mainland Europe


*Police with batons and teargas force migrants to flee Calais camp*
Brutal methods to clear refugee camps in France have led to a rise in illegal Channel crossings, says a new repo

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/01/french-police-step-up-calais-refugee-evictions



AlexPed2393 said:


> hey are clearly not asylum seekers they are Economic ILLEGAL immigrants. They illegally immigrating into the country without correct documentation.


Do you have anything to corroborate this claim?



AlexPed2393 said:


> Do not think everyone lives in unicorn land where everyone wants hugs, kisses and will be on their merry way helping our economy onto bigger and better things.


 I'm actually a unicorn denier (see avatar). People who STILL believe we're going to be better off outside the EU are the ones living in unicorn land



stockwellcat. said:


> Where do you get your figures from Noushka. Over 100 have tried since beginning of December and over 539 have attempted since January 2018


Still a drop in the ocean. Hardly a crisis

Adam Beinkov: _Just 0.13% of all those arriving in the UK from outside Europe claimed asylum last year. Germany, Italy and France all received at least twice as many applications. The attempt to make political capital out of some of the most desperate people on the planet is a disgrace_












stockwellcat. said:


> er says over 400 people have died living rough not the exaggerated 700 you have said. You are seriously mis quoting official figures.


And that is still horrific & absolutely is a crisis! Point made!



Elles said:


> Well we've been told what's in cheap rubbish from the USA, more fool us if we import it, or eat it. Edwina Currie said there was salmonella in eggs and practically destroyed the egg industry and ended her career. It's as likely that sensible people in the U.K. will buy and eat contaminated produce from the USA as the Eu will import whale meat because they're trading with japan. Less likely probably.


Our own standards will have to be lowered if we're to compete. This is what brexit is about for the tories - deregulation. ( The Shock Doctrine?? ) I doubt the EU will import whale meat, but the EU should not have done a deal with Japan without clauses !.

Molly Cato Scott on the Greens & the Japan trade deal with the EU. Another example why people should take responsibility for their politics & vote for progressive politicians. Though in this case it sounds like many MEPs in other left wing parties have let us down,

http://mollymep.org.uk/2018/12/12/greens-reject-jefta-blueprint/

Greens in the European Parliament today voted against a new free trade agreement between the EU and Japan. The deal, known as JEFTA, was passed due to support from a majority of MEPs from both the right and left. Greens also called for a postponement of the vote, which would have allowed for the EU Commission to negotiate sanctions if either party to the deal failed to comply with sustainable development objectives.

JEFTA is the biggest ever trade deal in terms of trade value and Greens have had reservations from the outset. They say the agreement follows the damaging blueprint of similar deals such as TTIP and CETA; that it leaves public services exposed to further privatisation; that financial service rules are the same that applied when the financial crash happened; that data protection is weak and that the sustainable development chapter is not binding.

Green MEP for the South West, Molly Scott Cato said:

_"It is disappointing that so many MEPs have backed a free trade agreement that has so many shortcomings. In particular, the deal is a failed opportunity to bring Japan in line with higher environmental standards. The Paris climate goals and the sustainable development goals must be the overarching framework for modern trade agreements._

_"As a major market for illegal timber and whaling under the guise of "scientific research" JEFTA should provide the mechanisms to prevent such practices and impose sanctions if Japan continues to breach them. But it contains no powers to hold Japan to account. _

_"Worryingly, this deal could be a precedent for the future relationship between the EU and UK if and when we leave the bloc. The UK will also seek to use such free trade deals as blueprints in a copy and paste job when trying to agree trade deals with countries outside the EU. Or if the Brextremists get their hands on UK trade policy, it is clear that things could be even worse with workers' rights trashed and environmental regulations ripped _



stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 I just fact checked with Shelter and the amount that have died sleeping rough in 2018 is around 449 and around 320,000 people are homeless this figure is from research done in December 2018


A crisis for sure! Its absolutely shameful.

Tory Britain.








Elles said:


> Are we going to lower our standards to allow produce that would currently fail into the country? *Everything I read says different*ly.


Can you provide links please?



AlexPed2393 said:


> I have the opinion that there are so many economical migrants mixed in with the few true asylum seekers that we are unable to tell which is which. This then means we have to eerrr on the sire of caution and treat those we are not sure of as asylum seekers.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...epers-harry-leslie-smith-visits-jungle-calais



O2.0 said:


> Oh gosh yes, it's a very difficult question.
> 
> Part of me agrees that yes, convenience foods, processed foods, unhealthy foods should be taxed. But another part of me stops and wonders if that's really helpful or if it ends up hurting those who need the help the most.
> 
> The idea of trying to save people from themselves in theory always sounds good, but in practice is fraught with problems. Who am I to decide what is right for one person? Or the government for that matter? I'm inherently distrustful of putting more power in the government's hands to decide what is and isn't healthy.
> I really would rather the people take that power for themselves, educate themselves and decide, based on their own lives, lifestyles and ethics, what they do and don't want to participate in.
> I'm all for helping people make educated choices, but at some point we have to have the maturity to step back and allow folks to make whatever choice they make whether we agree with that choice or not.


I believe its the responsibility of government to regulate industry & protect people, livestock & the environment from the worst of corporate greed. In the UK we are protected by EU legislation. The tories call this legislation 'red tape' & this is why they are desperate for brexit so they can rip it up!



Elles said:


> according to whatever standards we want


I dont think thats what Liam Fox has in mind.

.


----------



## KittenKong

Is this what Brexit is all about? I see no criticism of the depicted fascist who secured German EU passports for his children while persuading many in the UK into giving up theirs.

The _European Union _bit is my favourite bit of my passport.

Gold Letraset could be utilised of course on future ones.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> When returning home to Greece, with British Airways on New Year's Eve, I was informed by staff at Heathrow that I needed a VISA to travel as I had a one way ticket! When I pointed out that as a European citizen I did not need a visa to travel to another European country I was told to "CALM DOWN"
> I was told the system was informing them that I needed to prove residence or have a visa or I would mot be allowed to travel!
> On pointing out we ie Britain was still a member of the EU and that they should check their facts I was again treated to a "Madam it is what the system says"
> Luckily I had my residency card with me and was told that as I had the" relevant paperwork" I could fly.
> BE AWARE always carry your residency papers with you. it has started already!


Posted on Facebook by Mr Nobody no doubt?

Whoever Mr Nobody is I think he's jumping to conclusions. In my experience airport staff can be funny about one way tickets - years ago my two sons were refused entry into Zimbabwe because they were going to stay with a friend there before driving back home to Johannesburg. They got stuck back on the only plane returning to Europe that day and ended up in Sofia airport where they kicked up such a fuss they were put on the next plane back to London!

I've had the same thing happen to me a couple of time when flying on a one way ticket from La Reunion to Mayotte both of which are part of the EU. For some reason the customs officer decided that although I had a British passport with EU clearly marked on the cover I wasn't an EU citizen because my passport had been issued in Johannesburg South Africa???????? I was told that in order to travel to Mayotte I needed a visa which of course was a load of rot and I told them so. The second time was at the check in when the girl at the desk didn't know that the UK was part of the EU and wouldn't take my word for it even though it was clearly stated on the front of the passport and it was only after having the fact confirmed by a superior I was allowed to travel.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Only a tiny fraction try to come here. France is not a safe haven for them, the French police are treating them brutally.
> 
> *Police with batons and teargas force migrants to flee Calais camp*
> Brutal methods to clear refugee camps in France have led to a rise in illegal Channel crossings, says a new repo
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/01/french-police-step-up-calais-refugee-evictions
> 
> Do you have anything to corroborate this claim?
> 
> I'm actually a unicorn denier (see avatar). People who STILL believe we're going to be better off outside the EU are the ones living in unicorn land
> 
> Still a drop in the ocean. Hardly a crisis
> 
> Adam Beinkov: _Just 0.13% of all those arriving in the UK from outside Europe claimed asylum last year. Germany, Italy and France all received at least twice as many applications. The attempt to make political capital out of some of the most desperate people on the planet is a disgrace_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that is still horrific & absolutely is a crisis! Point made!
> 
> Our own standards will have to be lowered if we're to compete. This is what brexit is about for the tories - deregulation. ( The Shock Doctrine?? ) I doubt the EU will import whale meat, but the EU should not have done a deal with Japan without clauses!.
> 
> Molly Cato Scott on the Greens & the Japan trade deal with the EU. Another example why people should take responsibility for their politics & vote for progressive politicians. Though in this case it sounds like many MEPs in other left wing parties have let us down,
> 
> http://mollymep.org.uk/2018/12/12/greens-reject-jefta-blueprint/
> 
> Greens in the European Parliament today voted against a new free trade agreement between the EU and Japan. The deal, known as JEFTA, was passed due to support from a majority of MEPs from both the right and left. Greens also called for a postponement of the vote, which would have allowed for the EU Commission to negotiate sanctions if either party to the deal failed to comply with sustainable development objectives.
> 
> JEFTA is the biggest ever trade deal in terms of trade value and Greens have had reservations from the outset. They say the agreement follows the damaging blueprint of similar deals such as TTIP and CETA; that it leaves public services exposed to further privatisation; that financial service rules are the same that applied when the financial crash happened; that data protection is weak and that the sustainable development chapter is not binding.
> 
> Green MEP for the South West, Molly Scott Cato said:
> 
> _"It is disappointing that so many MEPs have backed a free trade agreement that has so many shortcomings. In particular, the deal is a failed opportunity to bring Japan in line with higher environmental standards. The Paris climate goals and the sustainable development goals must be the overarching framework for modern trade agreements._
> 
> _"As a major market for illegal timber and whaling under the guise of "scientific research" JEFTA should provide the mechanisms to prevent such practices and impose sanctions if Japan continues to breach them. But it contains no powers to hold Japan to account. _
> 
> _"Worryingly, this deal could be a precedent for the future relationship between the EU and UK if and when we leave the bloc. The UK will also seek to use such free trade deals as blueprints in a copy and paste job when trying to agree trade deals with countries outside the EU. Or if the Brextremists get their hands on UK trade policy, it is clear that things could be even worse with workers' rights trashed and environmental regulations ripped _
> 
> A crisis for sure! Its absolutely shameful.
> 
> Tory Britain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide links please?
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...epers-harry-leslie-smith-visits-jungle-calais
> 
> I believe its the responsibility of government to regulate industry & protect people, livestock & the environment from the worst of corporate greed. In the UK we are protected by EU legislation. The tories call this legislation 'red tape' & this is why they are desperate for brexit so they can rip it up!
> 
> .


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


>


Not keen on facts are you SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Is this what Brexit is all about? I see no criticism of the depicted fascist who secured German EU passports for his children while persuading many in the UK into giving up theirs.
> 
> The _European Union _bit is my favourite bit of my passport.
> 
> Gold Letraset could be utilised of course on future ones.
> View attachment 386687











I think they look nice.
Then in October next year they will be 








Seriously though. No Brexit isn't just about the passport turning Blue or even taking European Union off it. You must have ignored every leave and none leavers comment over the last 2 years if you really think it boils down to the UK Passport.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Not keen on facts are you SWC.


Give up noushka it is getting boring now.


----------



## Elles

No, I’m not finding a bunch of links, it’s not necessary. People don’t want standards lowered. Politicians from Michael Gove to Caroline Lucas and all farming representatives and members have said so. If the odd extremist wants to feed the poor bleached chicken from America, good luck to them. If this government sell us down the river, the next one will have to buy us back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Farmers want a new law to guarantee food standards, this was in the news earlier today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here you go:
*Brexit: Farmers call for new law to guarantee food standards*
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46746015


----------



## KittenKong

"All leave cancelled, everybody on standby" for an act of deliberate self harm?

https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/03/poli...06204/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "All leave cancelled, everybody on standby"
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/03/poli...06204/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook
> 
> View attachment 386697


It only affects police in Kent and they aren't allowed to take leave from March 2019 to April 2019. No big deal really. It is to help deal with lorries in Kent and put operation Brock in place on the M20.

Nice try scaremongering @KittenKong but try reading the article first.


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> I believe its the responsibility of government to regulate industry & protect people, livestock & the environment from the worst of corporate greed.


LOL well that's your first mistake! 
The government = corporations and corporations = the government. That's like asking *these* pirates to protect you from *those* pirates when the pirates are all from the same ship.

I would rather see us (the people) control governments and big corporations with our consumer choices. It's amazing what can be accomplished through simple grass-roots efforts that spread


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> It only affects police in Kent and they aren't allowed to take leave from March 2019 to April 2019. No big deal really. It is to help deal with lorries in Kent and put operation Brock in place on the M20.
> 
> Nice try scaremongering @KittenKong but try reading the article first.


Not my words, I suggest you contact the Metro editor if you believe this is scaremongering.

How about this from the Guardian?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...it-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border

Perhaps you believe the PSNI chiefs are scaremongering as well?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Not my words, I suggest you contact the Metro editor if you believe this is scaremongering.


You are scaremongering about this story from the Metro.


> How about this from the Guardian?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...it-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border
> 
> Perhaps you believe the PSNI chiefs are scaremongering as well?
> 
> View attachment 386733
> View attachment 386734


This is a totally different story @KittenKong. Stop trying to link them both.

The police are on standby in Kent over lorries and Operation Brock on the M20 which is where the lorries queue to get into Dover and Folkestone.

Different story from Northern Ireland.
Not linked what so ever.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Gavin Williamson has announced HMS Mersey (Royal Navy Ship) is assisting the Border Force ships and the French Naval Ship in the English Channels to help stop the illegal migrants in the English Channel from reaching the UK.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/wars...o-intercept-migrant-boats-in-channel-11598276


----------



## stockwellcat.

Brexit Poll suggests that Conservative Members would prefer a no deal.

64% of grassroots members would opt for a "no-deal" Brexit on 29 March, with just 29% preferring the plan Theresa May has negotiated.

Yougov is where you can find the poll according to Sky News.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

https://www.facebook.com/groups/161493768108559/permalink/223419805249288/


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386743
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/161493768108559/permalink/223419805249288/


The Very Brexit Problems Club is talking utter nonesense.  Rail Fares have nothing to do with Brexit and rise every year. Not even remotely linked to Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> No, I'm not finding a bunch of links, it's not necessary. People don't want standards lowered. Politicians from Michael Gove to Caroline Lucas and all farming representatives and members have said so. If the odd extremist wants to feed the poor bleached chicken from America, good luck to them. If this government sell us down the river, the next one will have to buy us back.


Brexit will throw this country into chaos. we will be desperate for trade deals. The disaster capitalists dream. (you actually trust the word of Gove?) It isn't just the odd member Elles.

_Government "remains quiet" about whether UK can or will require high animal welfare in meat imports in new #tradedeals says ⁦@ciwf⁩ - worrying for animals, antibiotics and British farmers_

................................................................



O2.0 said:


> LOL well that's your first mistake!


I didn't make a mistake. I didnt say thats what governments _are_ doing,( after all for almost 40 years we have both had neoliberalism (Reaganomics in the US, Thatcherism here), ). I said i believe a government _should_ protect the citizens its supposed to serve from corporate greed.



O2.0 said:


> The government = corporations and corporations = the government. That's like asking *these* pirates to protect you from *those* pirates when the pirates are all from the same ship.


Quite!. And the EU for all its faults protects us from our own government - the worst of corporate greed. Which is the point I was trying to make about EU legislation, why our standards are higher & why the hard right tories are desperate for us to crash out without a deal so they can further unshackle big business .

This video by Robert Reich is excellent.
Its a timeline of neoliberalism and the deceitful political propaganda to shift the blame. Set in a US context, but also applicable to the UK.








O2.0 said:


> I would rather see us (the people) control governments and big corporations with our consumer choices. It's amazing what can be accomplished through simple grass-roots efforts that spread


We have 12 years to save the planet from this greedy minority. Do you believe simple grass roots efforts alone can achieve that? I believe our best hope is a mass grass roots movement_ plus _progressive representatives in government. I'm a member of the Green Party which is a totally democratic grass roots party - we take no funding at all from big money.

...


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexit Poll suggests that Conservative Members would prefer a no deal.
> 
> 64% of grassroots members would opt for a "no-deal" Brexit on 29 March, with just 29% preferring the plan Theresa May has negotiated.
> 
> Yougov is where you can find the poll according to Sky News.


 What a surprise!:Jawdrop

NOT.

........................


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien:*  £14million Government contract awarded without anyone else knowing it was up for grabs to a 'shipping' company with sixty six quid in the bank, no ships, no history & its terms & conditions cut & pasted from a takeaway website.

Brexit is turning us into a (Bendy) Banana Republic.


----------



## noushka05

David Schneider: Who's to blame for Brexit disaster, latest Rees-Mogg update


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Gavin Williamson has announced HMS Mersey (Royal Navy Ship) is assisting the Border Force ships and the French Naval Ship in the English Channels to help stop the illegal migrants in the English Channel from reaching the UK.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/wars...o-intercept-migrant-boats-in-channel-11598276


God help us all with these self serving eejits in charge.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> It's a reasonable question seeing most of the UK population are saying the same thing.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if they are sinister forces at work somewhere, by whom I don't know. This latest "Crisis" is a bit too co-incidenal seeing it's come at a time Theresa May's trying to get support for her Brexit plan. We know how Brexiters blame the EU for any immigration and everything else that goes wrong.
> 
> And at election times they tends to be a terrorist incident, not only in the UK of course. It happened in 2017 of course...
> 
> And, are these "migrants", I prefer to call them people, not conditioned into believing the UK is the place to go as it's the best, in much the same way people here are brought up to believe they are superior to everyone else, (at least that's how they tried to bring me up and teach me at school-no wonder I rebelled), through "winning" two World Wars and one World Cup?
> 
> And why should citizens from other EU countries be targeted as potentially hostile after living and working in the UK for decades?
> 
> What next, none white people being branded as "Immigrants" despite being born in the UK? Will they have to be "branded" to prove their country of origin?
> 
> Don't forget, most rascists don't consider "Non white" people as British, even those born and bred in the UK.
> 
> The National Front who surrounded themselves behind Union flags just as Theresa May and the EDL do nowadays wanted a "White Britain" in the '70s".
> 
> Theresa May's hostile environment policy nearly created something similar through the Windrush scandal.


Oh my god. Now governments across Europe are arranging terrorist attacks at election times?

You really need to read what you write and realise how ludicrously it comes across.

And I dare someone to count how many times you've mentioned Windrush on this thread. Broken record anyone?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Oh my god. Now governments across Europe are arranging terrorist attacks at election times?
> 
> You really need to read what you write and realise how ludicrously it comes across.
> 
> And I dare someone to count how many times you've mentioned Windrush on this thread. Broken record anyone?


Wait a minute, I never accused the government of this, I said sinister sources which could be anyone, not necessarily based in the UK.

And I make no absolutely apologies for mentioning Windrush more than once, especially as it'll extend to many EU citizens who might find themselves "illegal" after the transition period ends.

The Iraq war was nearly 16 years ago which has frequently got a mention in these pages. I haven't seen you complain about that!

As for a broken record, if I hear that vile woman say, "In the national interest" and, "The British people voted to leave" again.....

I guess what I write will come over as ludicrous to people with a different viewpoint, just as I find those praising Brexit and Theresa May way beyond baffling!


----------



## noushka05

Interesting thread.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080869261005021184
Fellow Leave voters, did you think, when casting your vote in June 2016, that the Government would give £14m to a non-existent ferry company, with possible ties to a Tory donor, in a futile attempt to stave off the complete economic collapse of a no-Deal Brexit?

Did you believe that, instead of holding all the cards, the future relationship with the EU would be set enitrely on their terms - and that companies would relocate hundreds of thousands of jobs to Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin?

Did you stop and consider that leaving the Customs Union and Single Market would have catastrophic implications for JiT supply chains, which could wipe out the car industry in Sunderland, Solihull and Swindon?

Did you recognise that falls in the pound would make the cost of living much higher - and that, far from providing a dividend, the costs of preparing for Brexit would run into billions, not to mention the opportunity cost of a failing Government unable to focus on anything else?

*If you can honestly answer yes to all of those questions, then you clearly knew what you were voting for.*

I didn't.

Please don't count me in your 17.4 million.
*
I am a victim of the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the British people.*

And that's without mentioning the overspending, illegal data-mining and Russian collusion that we now know characterised the Leave campaigns

#VoteLeaveBrokeTheLaw
#LeaveEUBrokeTheLaw

We have less than 90 days to save Britain from the consequences of a foolish decision that I, to my eternal shame, helped to make.

May is useless. Corbyn is worse than useless. Sensible MPs need to step up. You represent the majority in Parliament.

You have the numbers to form a Government of national unity, led by @CarolineLucas #RevokeA50 Let's start the process of moving forwards.

Tackle the devastating effects of ruinous austerity.

Present the positive case for immigration. Improve workers' rights.

Ignore the threats of "civil unrest" from Russian bots and hardcore Brexiteers.

They only want to sow division and hatred.

We can build a better Britain. We can become a more equitable society. We can play our part as a leader of a revitalised Europe.

But the clock is ticking


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080869261005021184
> Fellow Leave voters, did you think, when casting your vote in June 2016, that the Government would give £14m to a non-existent ferry company, with possible ties to a Tory donor, in a futile attempt to stave off the complete economic collapse of a no-Deal Brexit?
> 
> Did you believe that, instead of holding all the cards, the future relationship with the EU would be set enitrely on their terms - and that companies would relocate hundreds of thousands of jobs to Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin?
> 
> Did you stop and consider that leaving the Customs Union and Single Market would have catastrophic implications for JiT supply chains, which could wipe out the car industry in Sunderland, Solihull and Swindon?
> 
> Did you recognise that falls in the pound would make the cost of living much higher - and that, far from providing a dividend, the costs of preparing for Brexit would run into billions, not to mention the opportunity cost of a failing Government unable to focus on anything else?
> 
> *If you can honestly answer yes to all of those questions, then you clearly knew what you were voting for.*
> 
> I didn't.
> 
> Please don't count me in your 17.4 million.
> *
> I am a victim of the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the British people.*
> 
> And that's without mentioning the overspending, illegal data-mining and Russian collusion that we now know characterised the Leave campaigns
> 
> #VoteLeaveBrokeTheLaw
> #LeaveEUBrokeTheLaw
> 
> We have less than 90 days to save Britain from the consequences of a foolish decision that I, to my eternal shame, helped to make.
> 
> May is useless. Corbyn is worse than useless. Sensible MPs need to step up. You represent the majority in Parliament.
> 
> You have the numbers to form a Government of national unity, led by @CarolineLucas #RevokeA50 Let's start the process of moving forwards.
> 
> Tackle the devastating effects of ruinous austerity.
> 
> Present the positive case for immigration. Improve workers' rights.
> 
> Ignore the threats of "civil unrest" from Russian bots and hardcore Brexiteers.
> 
> They only want to sow division and hatred.
> 
> We can build a better Britain. We can become a more equitable society. We can play our part as a leader of a revitalised Europe.
> 
> But the clock is ticking


I do love these "pronouncements" from some anonymous being on Facebook, who hasn't the honesty or the guts to write under his real name!

And I'm expected to believe him??

Pull the other one!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/greatest-villains-literature/robert-lovelace/


----------



## KittenKong

Well, we had the local Tory MP invited to assemblies but to be fair on him he kept politics out of the speeches he gave.

More disturbingly were the frequent visits from the army to discuss the Russian threat, (ironically now greater than ever but they back Brexit so that's ok), and to demonstrate equipment in the hope of recruiting pupils on leaving school.

As for actual politics, I guess they expected people to learn about it through the BBC and the press.

No wonder it's led to this mess...


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I do love these "pronouncements" from some anonymous being on Facebook, who hasn't the honesty or the guts to write under his real name!
> 
> And I'm expected to believe him??
> 
> Pull the other one!
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/greatest-villains-literature/robert-lovelace/


Believe what?

There are plenty of leave voters that have changed their minds because they didn't vote for this shambles - https://twitter.com/RemainerNow

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> And the Tory party led by Theresa May isn't?
> 
> I know which, "Corrupt poncy old fools" I'd rather ran this country.
> 
> It isn't Theresa May.


I replied to someone elses comment agreeing with this sentiment. But if the leader of the EU is happy to act like a fool wandering in and out of important meetings, ruffling peoples hair and just being a straight up rude idiot then I have no time for him.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Only a tiny fraction try to come here. France is not a safe haven for them, the French police are treating them brutally.


I'll ask of you what you are asking of others. Where are your facts for this



noushka05 said:


> *Police with batons and teargas force migrants to flee Calais camp*
> Brutal methods to clear refugee camps in France have led to a rise in illegal Channel crossings, says a new repo


Why are they in Calais... to get to the UK. I'm not saying they have t o be in France, why not Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Belgium. Are you saying all these countries are too nasty that they can only come to us



noushka05 said:


> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...epers-harry-leslie-smith-visits-jungle-calais


Your article here is written with someone who went in biased and unwilling to see the bigger picture. Yes calais is a nightmare so why endanger your young family or life by going there



noushka05 said:


> Do you have anything to corroborate this claim?


 CBA to find an article but why is everyone claiming to be Iranian rather than from other countries? How can they afford to get boats to cross the channel, how can they afford to pay these mystic middle men to get them into our country. I'm betting none of that comes cheap.



noushka05 said:


> I'm actually a unicorn denier (see avatar). People who STILL believe we're going to be better off outside the EU are the ones living in unicorn land


Damn you got me on the unicorns, I'll call it fairy land instead then. I think in the short term we will not be better off out of the EU (5-10 years) but down the line we will see definite improvements.#

p.s. this wasn't really worth the wait. I don't need to see articles on articles written by people with a biased viewpoint to suit yours as they are pointless


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> What next, none white people being branded as "Immigrants" despite being born in the UK? Will they have to be "branded" to prove their country of origin?


I've said before I am in support of immigration as I am a by product of it, that would be hypocritical of me. Illegal immigration I can only tolerate in small levels in extreme circumstances


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I replied to someone elses comment agreeing with this sentiment. But if the leader of the EU is happy to act like a fool wandering in and out of important meetings, ruffling peoples hair and just being a straight up rude idiot then I have no time for him.


Yes indeed you did.

The UK government unilaterally pulled the trigger in leaving the EU, so whatever happens the blame must lie with Theresa May and her useless government.

The EU didn't want this. Article 50 could be withdrawn at anytime with the status quo maintained.

Now, even I agree the EU isn't perfect, but giving notice to leave and still expect all the privileges except our FOM rights of course which is TM's top priority and to hell with everything else, we can hardly expect the EU to bend over backwards in giving her what she wants.

The EU needs to put its member states first. The UK will soon no longer be, it's possible if May gets her plan passed they'll be rule takers for another 18 months or so, not contributors when she dellusionally believed she could rule them as an ex member .

Brussels would have every right to tell May to p*** off.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I've said before I am in support of immigration as I am a by product of it, that would be hypocritical of me. Illegal immigration I can only tolerate in small levels in extreme circumstances


This Government plans to charge citizens from the EEA area, which includes Norway a fee to apply to stay. Who's to say existing citizens currently in the UK legally will not always be accepted through not meeting the criteria, say doing jobs earning less than £30K per annum?

You only have to look at the Windrush scandal where people were wrongly sacked from their jobs, denied healthcare and being wrongly deported.

I think it's disgusting myself personally, especially as during the 2016 referendum existing citizens were given reassurances they would be allowed to stay.

Then, that was before Theresa May became Prime Minister...


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Article 50 could be withdrawn at anytime with the status quo maintained.


Doing this would be so against democracy and the biggest waste of government finances (our finances) ever. 
Basically saying yeh we had all those weeks, months, years of talks in government, communicating with the EU, having several votes regarding the refurrendum and now we are going to just forget about all of that and go back to those days when Brexit didn't exist.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> But you surely can't support this Government's plans to charge citizens from the EEA area, which includes Norway a fee to apply to stay. Who's to say existing citizens currently in the UK legally will not always be accepted through not meeting the criteria, say doing jobs earning less than £30K per annum.
> 
> With respect you must be very niave to believe this government will do a good job of this.
> 
> You only have to look at the Windrush scandal where people were wrongly sacked from their jobs, denied healthcare and wrongly deported.


Got this from the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

*How much will it cost?*
Applications will cost £65 for adults and £32.50 for children and be free for EU nationals who already have residency or indefinite leave to remain.

Applicants will be asked to provide their biographical information, declare whether they have any criminal records, and upload a facial photograph.

The process requires verification of the applicant's identity and nationality using a passport, ID card or other valid document, which can be done using a smartphone app or through secure post.

eeeeerm yeh I agree with that

editing in. Windrush was absolutely shocking and an example of poor practices, also it means that the government should now learn from these errors so similar problems do not happen again


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Got this from the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225
> 
> *How much will it cost?*
> Applications will cost £65 for adults and £32.50 for children and be free for EU nationals who already have residency or indefinite leave to remain.
> 
> Applicants will be asked to provide their biographical information, declare whether they have any criminal records, and upload a facial photograph.
> 
> The process requires verification of the applicant's identity and nationality using a passport, ID card or other valid document, which can be done using a smartphone app or through secure post.
> 
> eeeeerm yeh I agree with that
> 
> editing in. Windrush was absolutely shocking and an example of poor practices, also it means that the government should now learn from these errors so similar problems do not happen again


Well, I'm disgusted that you do. With respect you should know better.

I don't wish to correspond with people who support such a policy, history will show this, so on ignore you go.

I wish you well and only hope they don't target your non British born relatives.

I have none UK born friends, many who are very hard working. You may think I'm being over sensitive but I feel for them and disgusted at how they're treated and accused of being queue jumpers.

I'll stand in solidarity with them, not the bigots.

You do realise a couple with three children would have to fork out nearly £300 just to apply with no guarantee of acceptance which is a lot of money, even on an average wage.

And targeting children is something I would have expected from Nazi Germany. Not their fault they were born to "None-British" parents.

The BBC cannot be relied upon as a reliable source. Even if you're right about those given indefinite leave to remain being exempt, I don't believe you are unless they've been accepted as "British" citizens and eligible for UK passports, is that guaranteed if Theresa May doesn't achieve her immigration reduction targets?

I wouldn't trust her if I were you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> This Government plans to charge citizens from the EEA area, which includes Norway a fee to apply to stay.


 Other European Countries charge alot more than £65 for anyone to get permenant residency in there country. The UK is only implimenting what already works and is in place in other European countries and remainers seem shocked about this. Kittenkong if you went to retire in Spain for example and have lived there for 5 years and 3 months you would be required to apply for permenant residency or settled status and have to sit a citizens test and pay for this and the rest of the process. But I have explained this umpteen times to you but you stick your fingers in your ears or don't bother reading what is being explained to you. No offense but I am fed up of having to explain this to you as you do not intend to listen or have a wish to understand this and instead insist on whinging.

£65 is extremely cheap compared to what other European Countries charge and any other countries in the world charges for settled status.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This Government plans to charge citizens from the EEA area, which includes Norway a fee to apply to stay. Who's to say existing citizens currently in the UK legally will not always be accepted through not meeting the criteria, say doing jobs earning less than £30K per annum?
> 
> You only have to look at the Windrush scandal where people were wrongly sacked from their jobs, denied healthcare and being wrongly deported.
> 
> I think it's disgusting myself personally, especially as during the 2016 referendum existing citizens were given reassurances they would be allowed to stay.
> 
> Then, that was before Theresa May became Prime Minister...


We've already done this topic to death earlier in this thread and now you're resurrecting it along with Windrush which has also already been discussed.

You're now getting boring!


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Well, I'm disgusted that you do. With respect you should know better.
> 
> I don't wish to correspond with people who support such a disgusting policy, history will show this, so on ignore you go.
> 
> I wish you well and only hope they don't target your non British born relatives.
> 
> I have none UK born friends, many who are very hard working. You may think I'm being over sensitive but I feel for them and disgusted at how they're treated and accused of being queue jumpers.
> 
> I'll stand in solidarity with them, not the bigots.
> 
> You do realise a couple with three children would have to fork out nearly £300 just to apply with no guarantee of acceptance which is a lot of money, even on an average wage.
> 
> The BBC cannot be relied upon as a reliable source. Even if you're right about those given indefinite leave to remain being exempt, I don't believe you are unless they've been accepted as "British" citizens and eligible for UK passports, is that guaranteed if Theresa May doesn't achieve her immigration reduction targets?
> 
> I wouldn't trust her if I were you.


Have you seen how much it is to become a citizen of the US? 725$ ; $640 for application processing and $85 for biometrics services. Here is also a great link with all of the other fees that have to be paid to move to the US
https://www.supermoney.com/2018/01/immigration-help-legal-costs-immigrating-us-pay/

You're telling me £65 each for adults is too much. Also the below factors are in play from that same BBC article

Help with translation will also be offered
People from the Republic of Ireland will not need to apply for settled status but can do so if they wish to
Those with pre-settled status will be able to obtain settled status without additional charge
My "non british born relatives" my non british born relatives apart from my father live in their countries of birth, my father wouldn't be afraid of being targeted as he is here legally, has gone through all the processes and has pre-settled status.

You can ignore me if you want its just my opinion backed up by the facts I choose, same as anyone else


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> We've already done this topic to death earlier in this thread and now you're resurrecting it lone with Windrush which has also already been discussed.
> 
> You're now getting boring!


Kittenkong insists on whining over £65 when we would have to pay over £1000 to follow the process through in another European Country for settled status. It is getting boring now as it has been explained before not so long ago in the thread.

It seems that remainers like going around in circles


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Other European Countries charge alot more than £65 for anyone to get permenant residency in there country. The UK is only implimenting what already works and is in place in other European countries and remainers seem shocked about this. Kittenkong if you went to retire in Spain for example and have lived there for 5 years and 3 months you would be required to apply for permenant residency or settled status and have to sit a citizens test and pay for this and the rest of the process. But I have explained this umpteen times to you but you stick your fingers in your ears or don't bother reading what is being explained to you. No offense but I am fed up of having to explain this to you as you do not intend to listen or have a wish to understand this and instead insist on whinging.
> 
> £65 is extremely cheap compaired to what other European Countries charge and any other country in the world charges for a visa or settled status.


.

In Hungary and no doubt several other EU countries you also have to pass a language test, As Hungarian is a particularly difficult language to learn most people need to take a course which can cost between £54 to £98.

https://www.elte.hu/en/language-courses/hungarian


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I don't believe you are unless they've been accepted as "British" citizens and eligible for UK passports, is that guaranteed if Theresa May doesn't achieve her immigration reduction targets?


Just to add onto this, dad doesn't have a UK passport, has been in contact with the relevant people and told he has nothing to worry about. Stop scaremongering


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> No Brexit isn't just about the passport turning Blue


Nor is it just about the ''bendy bananas'' that were done to death. People are like dogs with bones when they get a tasty one, aren't they . . . encouraged by the dubious information sources which are quoted so often on this thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> .
> 
> In Hungary and no doubt several other EU countries you also have to pass a language test, As Hungarian is a particularly difficult language to learn most people need to take a course which can cost between £54 to £98.
> 
> https://www.elte.hu/en/language-courses/hungarian


Part of the citizens test in Holland. You have to know the language, be able to write in the language and be able to speak the language. You have to pay to do this. Pay for the certificate etc. Then there's the cost of all your certificates from the UK being apostilled (verified), criminal records background check done which you have to pay for through the Dutch Foreign Police etc. All this costs money. Lots of red tape.


----------



## Snoringbear

Item 7. Kind of throws the semantics over "let's" out of the window.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html


----------



## AlexPed2393

I think I'm more disappointed than annoyed at being put on an ignore list over a government policy, as now that conversation ceases to carry on


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'll ask of you what you are asking of others. Where are your facts for this


Here.

https://www.unhcr.org/uk/figures-at-a-glance.html

Here,
https://helprefugees.org/news/a-brief-timeline-of-the-human-rights-situation-in-calais/

For many years, a bottle-neck scenario has been unfolding in Northern France, characterised by precarity, rough-sleeping, dangerous and unauthorised border-crossings, and excessive police violence whichoften takes the shape of dangerous interventions.









A child walks towards police during a raid of the 20 establishments providing food for the residents of the Calais 'Jungle' camp (Refugee Info Bus)

The use of tear gas and intimidation tactics, as well as what would appear to amount to intentional sleep deprivation, appears to be part of a conscious tactic by the French state to create a hostile environment for refugees and asylum seekers in Northern France.

Such an approach - combined with an undeniable failure on part of the British government to meaningfully facilitate safe and legal passage for prospective asylum-seekers and those looking to be reunited with family in Britain - directly hinders an effective resolution to a detrimental and decades-long situation. Will you take action and write to your MP condemning the current approach? We have written a template letter that you can send in less than 60 seconds.

Here.
_Why would a refugee come to the UK from France, its perfectly fine there"

Here is a video of the 'Jungle' in Calais - where undocumented migrants converged.

It was torched by the French authorities.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080815828407386114
_



AlexPed2393 said:


> Why are they in Calais... to get to the UK. I'm not saying they have t o be in France, why not Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Belgium. Are you saying all these countries are too nasty that they can only come to us


Don't you think they're in other counties too?. How convenient we're surrounded by water though, hey?



AlexPed2393 said:


> Your article here is written with someone who went in biased and unwilling to see the bigger picture. Yes calais is a nightmare so why endanger your young family or life by going ther


Someone who cared enough to go over there & see for himself despite being a frail 90+ year old.











AlexPed2393 said:


> CBA to find an article but why is everyone claiming to be Iranian rather than from other countries? How can they afford to get boats to cross the channel, how can they afford to pay these mystic middle men to get them into our country. I'm betting none of that comes cheap.


Fleeing a country doesnt necessarily mean they are all penniless.



AlexPed2393 said:


> the short term we will not be better off out of the EU (5-10 years) but down the line we will see definite improvements.#


_we will see definite improvements_ Did you base your opinion on any evidence at all? Even that 'mewling pencil' brextremist who sold us a pack of lies now says it could be 50yrs before we see any benefits. My children will be drawing their pensions!

Brexit will be potentially catastrophic for NHS but at least we'll have our blue passports I suppose.



AlexPed2393 said:


> p.s. this wasn't really worth the wait. I don't need to see articles on articles written by people with a biased viewpoint to suit yours as they are point


I'm not the one with extreme confirmation bias.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Got this from the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225
> 
> *How much will it cost?*
> Applications will cost £65 for adults and £32.50 for children and be free for EU nationals who already have residency or indefinite leave to remain.
> 
> Applicants will be asked to provide their biographical information, declare whether they have any criminal records, and upload a facial photograph.
> 
> The process requires verification of the applicant's identity and nationality using a passport, ID card or other valid document, which can be done using a smartphone app or through secure post.
> 
> eeeeerm yeh I agree with that
> 
> editing in. Windrush was absolutely shocking and an example of poor practices, also it means that the government should now learn from these errors so similar problems do not happen again


They were promised nothing would change, now they have to apply to stay in their own homes. Its disgraceful.

*
The Home Office wants me to pay £65 to reapply for my own life in the UK* - that's not the agreement we had I will be penalised and become subject to the Home Office's policy whims

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/brexit-fallout-all-i-have-won-is-the-right-to-reapply-for-my-life/


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> You can ignore me if you want


Chin up, eh?


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> I think I'm more disappointed than annoyed at being put on an ignore list over a government policy, as now that conversation ceases to carry on


I get ignored alot as well on this thread. Try not to take it personally. 

You will find some remainers on this thread like jumping from one topic to another without finishing the previous conversation. It is so they can continue going around in circles.


----------



## noushka05

*Tom Brake MP*‏: Michael Gove speaks the truth when he says turbulence would be caused in UK farming by No Deal

But #*Brexit* combined with a comprehensive trade deal with the US could destroy the farming industry

UK *f*arming won't be able to compete with cheaper, lower-standard US food imports
...........................................................................................................

Meanwhile, arsonist who set fire to everything realises that things may actually burn.

If only he'd asked an expert.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> https://www.unhcr.org/uk/figures-at-a-glance.html


This just notes worldwide displaced people, not our situation


noushka05 said:


> https://helprefugees.org/news/a-brief-timeline-of-the-human-rights-situation-in-calais/


Brief timeline, yes its not a great situation so why do people come from a troubled place still go to a troubled place, the french authorities did try to help these people but they do not want to be in France they want to be in the UK.
Yes it is convenient we are surrounded by water, that makes it even more preposterous that people are trying to get here!


noushka05 said:


> Someone who cared enough to go over there & see for himself despite being a frail 90+ year old.


Good for him, he can afford to spend time over there, feel like comparing this situation to end of war times is not a great stance to take. As at end war times it is people of your country in these situations not of others. 


noushka05 said:


> Fleeing a country doesnt necessarily mean they are all penniless.


They've got a fair bit more than me


noushka05 said:


> They were promised nothing would change, now they have to apply to stay in their own homes. Its disgraceful.


Doesn't take long to sort it out online though if you have all the correct information to hand.


noushka05 said:


> Did you base your opinion on any evidence at all?


Well yes otherwise I wouldn't even be on a brexit column. Several news articles written over the past couple of years has formed this opinion. Not just from the BBC.



noushka05 said:


> I'm not the one with extreme confirmation bias.


Can we say we both are? I've only pulled articles where it states costs etc, not some old guy that wants to save the world.

:Angelic please don't put me on ignore, i do enjoy the back and forth :Angelic


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> Chin up, eh?


I think I wrote that not meaning to be so literal :Banghead
ah well


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> A child walks towards police during a raid of the 20 establishments providing food for the residents of the Calais 'Jungle' camp (Refugee Info Bus)


And there are a million photos out there showing the refugees/migrants perpetrating violence. But no, this is the one that is shown....


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386758
> 
> 
> .


And they wanted a vote in the referendum? Doesn't fill me with confidence.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Here.
> 
> https://www.unhcr.org/uk/figures-at-a-glance.html
> 
> Here,
> https://helprefugees.org/news/a-brief-timeline-of-the-human-rights-situation-in-calais/
> 
> For many years, a bottle-neck scenario has been unfolding in Northern France, characterised by precarity, rough-sleeping, dangerous and unauthorised border-crossings, and excessive police violence whichoften takes the shape of dangerous interventions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A child walks towards police during a raid of the 20 establishments providing food for the residents of the Calais 'Jungle' camp (Refugee Info Bus)
> 
> The use of tear gas and intimidation tactics, as well as what would appear to amount to intentional sleep deprivation, appears to be part of a conscious tactic by the French state to create a hostile environment for refugees and asylum seekers in Northern France.
> 
> Such an approach - combined with an undeniable failure on part of the British government to meaningfully facilitate safe and legal passage for prospective asylum-seekers and those looking to be reunited with family in Britain - directly hinders an effective resolution to a detrimental and decades-long situation. Will you take action and write to your MP condemning the current approach? We have written a template letter that you can send in less than 60 seconds.
> 
> Here.
> _Why would a refugee come to the UK from France, its perfectly fine there"
> 
> Here is a video of the 'Jungle' in Calais - where undocumented migrants converged.
> 
> It was torched by the French authorities.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080815828407386114
> _
> 
> Don't you think they're in other counties too?. How convenient we're surrounded by water though, hey?
> 
> Someone who cared enough to go over there & see for himself despite being a frail 90+ year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fleeing a country doesnt necessarily mean they are all penniless.
> 
> _we will see definite improvements_ Did you base your opinion on any evidence at all? Even that 'mewling pencil' brextremist who sold us a pack of lies now says it could be 50yrs before we see any benefits. My children will be drawing their pensions!
> 
> Brexit will be potentially catastrophic for NHS but at least we'll have our blue passports I suppose.
> 
> I'm not the one with extreme confirmation bias.
> 
> They were promised nothing would change, now they have to apply to stay in their own homes. Its disgraceful.
> 
> *
> The Home Office wants me to pay £65 to reapply for my own life in the UK* - that's not the agreement we had I will be penalised and become subject to the Home Office's policy whims
> 
> Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/brexit-fallout-all-i-have-won-is-the-right-to-reapply-for-my-life/


When was the last time you were in Calais?


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> This just notes worldwide displaced people, not our situation
> 
> Brief timeline, yes its not a great situation so why do people come from a troubled place still go to a troubled place, the french authorities did try to help these people but they do not want to be in France they want to be in the UK.
> Yes it is convenient we are surrounded by water, that makes it even more preposterous that people are trying to get here!
> 
> Good for him, he can afford to spend time over there, feel like comparing this situation to end of war times is not a great stance to take. As at end war times it is people of your country in these situations not of others.
> 
> They've got a fair bit more than me
> 
> Doesn't take long to sort it out online though if you have all the correct information to hand.
> 
> Well yes otherwise I wouldn't even be on a brexit column. Several news articles written over the past couple of years has formed this opinion. Not just from the BBC.
> 
> Can we say we both are? I've only pulled articles where it states costs etc, not some old guy that wants to save the world.
> 
> :Angelic please don't put me on ignore, i do enjoy the back and forth :Angelic


Perhaps you'd like to read the following article and reports ....

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-crisis-fight-explained/

*Refugee Crisis and the European Union: Do the Failed Migration and ...*

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/282454

https://rm.coe.int/prems-052917-gbr-1700-realising-refugees-160x240-web/1680724ba0


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you'd like to read the following article and reports ....
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-crisis-fight-explained/
> 
> file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/CMR_2_2_4_Maldini_Takahashi%20(1).pdf
> 
> https://rm.coe.int/prems-052917-gbr-1700-realising-refugees-160x240-web/1680724ba0


Thanks, I'll give them a read through at lunch


----------



## Magyarmum

Good for a giggle!

*The Daily Mash







*

*Government to provide emergency heating but only for awful Tory pensioners*
4th January 2019

T*HE government is planning to supply emergency heaters, blankets and duvets to old folk, but only the ones who are diehard Conservatives.*

Wizened bigots, golliwog owners and fans of the death penalty will be among those who will benefit from the kind gesture, so long as they vote Tory and not UKIP.

Junior health minister Denys Finch Hatton said: "As temperatures dip below zero, it is important our party membership doesn't do the same.

"Priority will be given to the most horrible elderly Tories. If they keep banging on about immigration - or better still, apartheid - they'll be as snug as a bug in a rug.

"We'll be focusing on marginal constituencies, where warm winter woolies could mean the difference between life and death for the chances of our parliamentary candidates.

"This isn't about shoring up our dwindling voter base, although if someone's thinking of defecting we might tempt them back by installing a magnificent log fire and giving them a year's supply of crumpets."

When criticised for not broadening the emergency heating plan to include all Britain's pensioners, Finch Hatton decided to irrelevantly criticise Jeremy Corbyn.

He said: "Corbyn calls himself a socialist yet he has central heating. What a bloody hypocrite."


----------



## Snoringbear

Leave on the WTO
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128


----------



## Snoringbear

Insanity
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...eer-no-deal-brexit-good-even-if-its-disaster/


----------



## O2.0

noushka05 said:


> And the EU for all its faults protects us from our own government - the worst of corporate greed.


I'm sorry but the EU is just another puppet of big corporations. All big governments are. You could probably argue that the EU is a lesser evil but it's still part of the same system. And I say this to both remainers and brexiters, leave or stay, you're still participating in the same type of system.

The video made good points but it's a massive oversimplification of something that was/is much more complex. And we have had an oligarchy much longer than the video implies, since WW2 really. Actually probably even before that when big corporations like the United Fruit Company started taking over poorer countries who didn't have much choice about it - basically a reboot of Imperialism but on a corporate level.

This trend to oversimplify is my frustration with these types of conversations. We humans love to try and reduce complex things down to a quick meme when the reality is much more nuanced. We would do well to try and understand the small nuances. But it's easier to just label the "other" (whoever voted differently than you) as ___ insert demeaning label of choice, and dismiss them and their opinions, than try and understand where those ideas are coming from and what worries, fears, and frustrations are driving them. And yes, BOTH sides are driven by fear.

I don't think it was deliberate, just a natural progression of a system that protects itself, but these divisive politics both in the UK and US (and I'm sure in many other places) have done a fantastic job of keeping us distrustful and fearful of each other instead of paying attention to what's going on behind the curtain.

For the record, I don't have anyone on ignore, but I will be ignoring this thread. This is exactly the sort of conversation I don't want to get sucked in to and waste my precious time and energy on. No offense meant to anyone on this thread, but it's just not for me. I like all of you and I don't want to start disliking anyone over this


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

Furious! Just discovered my 14 year old bi-racial daughter was asked in Santander yesterday whether she was born in the U.K. 'Because their systems needed updating'. 
It's beginning already
Edit: she was just paying money into an account opened in 2004


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> Furious! Just discovered my 14 year old bi-racial daughter was asked in Santander yesterday whether she was born in the U.K. 'Because their systems needed updating'.
> It's beginning already
> Edit: she was just paying money into an account opened in 2004


Hmm. Needs more context before I'm blaming that on Brexit!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> Furious! Just discovered my 14 year old bi-racial daughter was asked in Santander yesterday whether she was born in the U.K. 'Because their systems needed updating'.
> It's beginning already
> Edit: she was just paying money into an account opened in 2004


*?*
I don't see the relevance to Brexit or what this has to do with Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> *?*
> I don't see the relevance to Brexit or what this has to do with Brexit.


Really?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Really?


Yes. Really.

Kk has been spouting rubbish most of the day.

Seriously. Someone gets asked what their nationality is by a bank. Happens most of the time when banks do checks. I was asked the other day at my bank if I was a UK resident for tax purposes at the bank. Nothing to do with Brexit.

What is the problem with you remainers you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrell in desperation and looking for confrontations because you are so deaperate? Perhaps have nothing better to do with your time except trolling leave voters online.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...me-office-windrush-dean-ablakwa-a8711251.html










And people think and support Theresa May's idea for citizens from other EU countries to apply and be charged for settled status?

God give me strength...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes. Really.
> 
> Kk has been spouting rubbish most of the day.
> 
> Seriously. Someone gets asked what their nationality is by a bank. Happens most of the time when banks do checks. I was asked the other day at my bank if I was a UK resident for tax purposes at the bank. Nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> What is the problem with you remainers you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrell in desperation and looking for confrontations because you are so deaperate? Perhaps have nothing better to do with your time except trolling leave voters online.


Calm down! Opposition to Brexit is not trolling Brexiters!

Giving Brexit the benefit of the doubt for the moment, seeing the leave campaign promised existing EU citizens wouldn't be affected if the UK Brexits, it was Theresa May and her far right wing party who broke that leave campaign pledge through her obsession with immigration targets.

Yet yourself and other Brexit supporters seem to approve of that, so it has everything to do with Brexit. I've not heard any remainers approving it.

It would've been nice if we heard from Brexiters condemning Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and this vile and disgusting settled status policy from Theresa May.

Sad that we haven't. Think I can come to my own conclusions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes. Really.
> 
> Kk has been spouting rubbish most of the day.
> 
> Seriously. Someone gets asked what their nationality is by a bank. Happens most of the time when banks do checks. I was asked the other day at my bank if I was a UK resident for tax purposes at the bank. Nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> What is the problem with you remainers you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrell in desperation and looking for confrontations because you are so deaperate? Perhaps have nothing better to do with your time except trolling leave voters online.


Rather disrespectful post... 
It is a debate, are you short of arguments so you move to that?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> Furious! Just discovered my 14 year old bi-racial daughter was asked in Santander yesterday whether she was born in the U.K. 'Because their systems needed updating'.
> It's beginning already
> Edit: she was just paying money into an account opened in 2004


 Honestly  I had to change my council tax recently , lived here years and had to tick the same question .
A couple of years ago the Barclays bank , been with them since 1984 and same address, contacted me and I had to fill in a form and send proof of who I was etc . It was to do with money laundering.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Hmm. Needs more context before I'm blaming that on Brexit!


Perhaps, but I expect this kind of thing will increase after Brexit with Birth certificates having to be produced if one's country of origin is in doubt.

EU citizens will also have to apply for work permits when they don't at present and of course for former EU UK citizens living within the EU probably as well.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Rather disrespectful post...
> It is a debate, are you short of arguments so you move to that?


I have great respect for some Remainers here . But just posting ludicrous comments from Facebook and Twitter is not debate .

I'm running out of adjectives to describe KK posts though nonsense should cover it .


----------



## KittenKong

Thought this was a Newsthump article.

It isn't...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...-dig-him-out-as-ferry-fiasco-continues/04/01/


----------



## Elles

We’re still in the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook Very Brexit problems:


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> Furious! Just discovered my 14 year old bi-racial daughter was asked in Santander yesterday whether she was born in the U.K. 'Because their systems needed updating'.
> It's beginning already
> Edit: she was just paying money into an account opened in 2004


Sounds as if this is the same bloke that was stopped at the airport over his one way ticket. Different situation but virtually the same language .....

@KittenKong post no: 7183

Seen on Facebook:
When returning home to Greece, with British Airways on New Year's Eve, I was informed by staff at Heathrow that I needed a VISA to travel as I had a one way ticket! When I pointed out that as a European citizen I did not need a visa to travel to another European country I was told to "CALM DOWN"
I was told the system was informing them that I needed to prove residence or have a visa or I would mot be allowed to travel!
On pointing out we ie Britain was still a member of the EU and that they should check their facts I was again treated to a "Madam it is what the system says"
Luckily I had my residency card with me and was told that as I had the" relevant paperwork" I could fly. 
BE AWARE always carry your residency papers with you. it has started already!

Very .......


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Honestly  I had to change my council tax recently , lived here years and had to tick the same question .
> A couple of years ago the Barclays bank , been with them since 1984 and same address, contacted me and I had to fill in a form and send proof of who I was etc . It was to do with money laundering.


I had to fill in the same form for both my UK and Hungarian bank, but in my case presumably because I live outside the UK the form had to be notarised. As you say it's all to do with money laundering and not confined solely to the UK.

Last MondayI had to provide my passport, Hungarian ID, NHS and OAP cards to the village Mayor ...... everything to do with updating Hungarian Social Services should I need them and nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps, but I expect this kind of thing will increase after Brexit with Birth certificates having to be produced if one's country of origin is in doubt.
> 
> EU citizens will also have to apply for work permits when they don't at present and of course for former EU UK citizens living within the EU probably as well.


I would like to put you in your place. You have not lived in another European Country yet. I have.
When I lived in Holland I had to produce my passport, residency certificate in my passport (which you have to get regardless of your nationality as part of the process to live in another European country to be able to get a bank account, tax number, job and tenancy) and birth certificate which has to have an apostille or be notorised (look this up if you don't know what it is). It is standard practice to be asked what your nationality is. As kimthecat said it is to do with preventing money laundering and proving who you are. You are making an issue out of nothing again as this is nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Rather disrespectful post...
> It is a debate, are you short of arguments so you move to that?


I find alot of the posts that some remainers post disrespectful towards leave voters.

I am far from running out of correcting the rubbish some remainers are spouting online.


----------



## noushka05

]



AlexPed2393 said:


> This just notes worldwide displaced people, not our situation


What don't you believe, that dispaced people aren't coming here?


AlexPed2393 said:


> Brief timeline, yes its not a great situation so why do people come from a troubled place still go to a troubled place, the french authorities did try to help these people but they do not want to be in France they want to be in the UK.
> Yes it is convenient we are surrounded by water, that makes it even more preposterous that people are trying to get here!


I showed you evidence you asked for that French police are treating them brutally - are you still disputing it? That is why they are trying to get here. And some have family here.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Good for him, he can afford to spend time over there, feel like comparing this situation to end of war times is not a great stance to take. As at end war times it is people of your country in these situations not of other


He died. He spent the last years of his life fighting for social justice & to help refugees. Harry was a WW2 veteran, so I'd say he was in a far better position to compare than either you or I. Tell that to the Jews.



AlexPed2393 said:


> They've got a fair bit more than me


Which they would exchange in a heartbeat to have what we have. Safety & security.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Doesn't take long to sort it out online though if you have all the correct information to hand.


Easy for you to say - and that's hardly the point,



AlexPed2393 said:


> Well yes otherwise I wouldn't even be on a brexit column. Several news articles written over the past couple of years has formed this opinion. Not just from the BBC.


You've read several news articles - by whom? . The consensual position of experts in all fields is that brexit is going to be disastrous.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Can we say we both are? I've only pulled articles where it states costs etc, not some old guy that wants to save the world


I was opened minded before the vote - I'm definitely bias now its clear brexit is a shambles & real people are frightened, real peoples lives are at stake Alex - and for what? a blue passport & a 50p coin?

_
You know; I've been thinking about this and it's taking so much out of me not to continue to break down about this. I could literally die because of #Brexit and I don't think people like Theresa May even know the problems this is going to cause for the disabled










I've been sitting for days thinking about this picture and what it means to me and so many others. I'm disabled. I take 15 tablets a day, I take chemotherapy weekly and I need to get an infusion every 8 weeks.

What does this mean for me?

It means that if my medication stops abruptly or I run out I could end up in a wheel chair, my organs start failing and I could die a very slow painful death. For what? To avoid paying the EU Taxes???

Go **** yourself.

I'm so sick of hearing "Brexit this" and "Brexit that" why support something that will leave thousands of people dying, unable to work and the effectively kills or further cripples the people????

I don't want to die. I really really don't want to die.

I beg for #scottish #independence more now that ever because at least then I might only end up in a wheelchair.

I'm 20 and I feel like I'm saying goodbye to my life over this.

**** this. I hate it so much

_



AlexPed2393 said:


> :Angelic please don't put me on ignore, i do enjoy the back and forth :Angelic


Don't worry I wont. I've never put any brexiter on ignore - quite a few pretend I'm on it though:Smuggrin



Magyarmum said:


> When was the last time you were in Calais?


I haven't been. I thankful to those who have, who are out their now though.



O2.0 said:


> I'm sorry but the EU is just another puppet of big corporations. All big governments are. You could probably argue that the EU is a lesser evil but it's still part of the same system. And I say this to both remainers and brexiters, leave or stay, you're still participating in the same type of system.


 I'm well aware of what the EU is. I'm aware it is also vehicle for neoliberalism and this is the reason some people on the left of the political spectrum voted to leave (the lexit argument). But as you say, it is a lesser evil - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/european-union-eu-britain-sovereignty. And it could be reformed from within. Which is what progressives campaigned for prior to the vote. For all its many faults the EU has done far more for our standards than grassroots initiatives have done for yours in the USA.



O2.0 said:


> The video made good points but it's a massive oversimplification of something that was/is much more complex. And we have had an oligarchy much longer than the video implies, since WW2 really. Actually probably even before that when big corporations like the United Fruit Company started taking over poorer countries who didn't have much choice about it - basically a reboot of Imperialism but on a corporate lev


Of course its an over simplification - its a few minutes long I believe Robert Reich has wrote books on the subject. I maybe should have c&p'd one of those for detail lol

But ok, without the use of memes, I'll try to expand.

I have never disputed things were perfect before, but great social gains _were_ made in the post WW2 period - there was an improvement in the lot of most people . Millions of people started to get lifted out of poverty in the developed world. If you took the 30 year period 1950s -1980 there was a real sense of progress, which was real and felt by most people, and not just the rich and powerful. In general wealth, even the working classes started to enjoy things previously only the middle classes did. There were rapid gains in social justice.

In this period there was the sense that general progress was real, whereas there was doubt about this before( which was what allowed the rise of fascism in the 1930s). Of course things were far from perfect, but at least we did finally seem to be moving in the right direction. Yes we were still destroying the natural environment & there was still poverty & social injustice, but with the general rate of progress, it seemed as if surely we would address these problems.

Fast forward to the late 1970s /1980 period of Reagan and Thatcher and there was a very deliberate attempt to try and set the clock back! The conservatives thought social reforms had gone too far. Progressives believed this to be temporary when the Reagan/Thatcher era then gave way to the supposedly progressive Bill Clinton in the US and Tony Blair in the UK. But of course we now know Clinton and Blair had adopted the rights neoliberalism albeit a more humane version. But it still meant that they were actuality pursuing an economic and to some extent social course more akin to Thatcher and Reagan, than the progressives of the past. Neoliberal ideology spread across the world . People became more & more cynical about politics & the end result is we've ended up with Trump & Brexit - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
.

The toxic ideology now dominates our political and economic systems & almost every aspect of our lives. It is destroying the fabric of our society - & the biosphere which keeps us all alive.



O2.0 said:


> his trend to oversimplify is my frustration with these types of conversations. We humans love to try and reduce complex things down to a quick meme when the reality is much more nuanced. We would do well to try and understand the small nuances. But it's easier to just label the "other" (whoever voted differently than you) as ___ insert demeaning label of choice, and dismiss them and their opinions, than try and understand where those ideas are coming from and what worries, fears, and frustrations are driving them. And yes, BOTH sides are driven by fear.


I know people like to have a dig at me for posting memes but I do also try to address an argument, often supporting my argument with references to reliable sources. Which I believe is important in these days of 'fake news'. I'm not driven by fear,I didnt know much about the EU. i was open minded on which way to vote in the referendum. Like many, I was led by experts & evidence to my decision. I put my faith in trusted individuals & NGOs which I thought were far better placed to evaluate the pros & cons of leaving or remaining than I was. I am fearful of the future though, time is fast running out to address climate breakdown because everyone is distracted by this fiasco. As was predicted we would be!



O2.0 said:


> I don't think it was deliberate, just a natural progression of a system that protects itself, but these divisive politics both in the UK and US (and I'm sure in many other places) have done a fantastic job of keeping us distrustful and fearful of each other instead of paying attention to what's going on behind the curtain.


It was very deliberate actually. See above.



O2.0 said:


> This is exactly the sort of conversation I don't want to get sucked in to and waste my precious time and energy on. is


To me, there is no debate more important to waste my time on. Neoliberalism is quite literally destroying our living planet along with all its amazing lifeforms. If we don't change course from this suicidal ideology the future for our children is bleak. And time is fast running out.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-must-not-exceed-15c-warns-landmark-un-report

....................................................................................


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I find alot of the posts that some remainers post disrespectful towards leave voters.
> 
> I am far from running out of correcting the rubbish some remainers are spouting online.


I just pointed that your post in reply to KK was ad personam.

I have travel to Spain and back daily now.
The whole thing takes up to two hours.
Imagine hard border. All paperwork. Queues for hours.

I will not be able to do it anymore.
You right about UK having rights to ask for documents, having rights to check if EU guests after 3 months have legal employment etc... all that but simply under TM as Home Secretary etc .. UK did not bother, had all the rights to make sure no layabouts- but they blame EU for not using it. 
You quote Holland - they had more efficient ways in dealing with EU immigration than not using all the EU laws but just blaming EU for your own ineptitude, indolence and ignorance.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386895


:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

The global laughing stock just gets greater.









https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...t-looms/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6fac628cc199










:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> And there are a million photos out there showing the refugees/migrants perpetrating violence. But no, this is the one that is shown....


What are the sources of these photos ? Of course there are good & bad in all, but the hard right are pumping a lot of propaganda to whip up hatred & fear.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> The global laughing stock just gets greater.
> View attachment 386908
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...t-looms/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6fac628cc199
> 
> View attachment 386909
> 
> 
> :Hilarious


LOL Have you ever felt more embarrassed to be British?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I just pointed that your post in reply to KK was ad personam.
> 
> I have travel to Spain and back daily now.
> The whole thing takes up to two hours.
> Imagine hard border. All paperwork. Queues for hours.
> 
> I will not be able to do it anymore.
> You right about UK having rights to ask for documents, having rights to check if EU guests after 3 months have legal employment etc... all that but simply under TM as Home Secretary etc .. UK did not bother, had all the rights to make sure no layabouts- but they blame EU for not using it.
> You quote Holland - they had more efficient ways in dealing with EU immigration than not using all the EU laws but just blaming EU for your own ineptitude, indolence and ignorance.


Every European Country has similar rules about European Citizens living in their countries where you have to register to live there. When the UK talks about introducing similar laws they get critised.

The truth is the UK voted to leave the EU and some remainers cannot handle this.


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386894


*The truth is, people didn't know what they were voting for. A deal should have been reached before there was a vote. *


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *The truth is, people didn't know what they were voting for.*


See it is comments like this that are not true. People did know what they voted for.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> See it is comments like this that are not true. People did know what they voted for.


*How could they have known. To this day we still don't know all of the facts, so how can we say yes or no?*


----------



## cheekyscrip

The thing is that I agree with some points Leave make, but as to EU immigration we already had powers simply not used.
Bit like with blue passport- nothing to stop us from having one.
Yes, EU is flawed but UK should have been the power to bring on these changes and UK is not the only one that wants those changes.
We had a voice - but instead we are crashing out destroying everything for us.

Great feat of British diplomacy.

Ask Putin’s advice or Trump, great champions of ERG.


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *How could they have known. To this day we still don't know all of the facts, so how can we say yes or no?*


You don't need facts.

The UK voted to leave.

When you leave a pub you don't wait for facts to leave the pub you leave.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Every European Country has similar rules about European Citizens living in their countries where you have to register to live there. When the UK talks about introducing similar laws they get critised.
> 
> The truth is the UK voted to leave the EU and some remainers cannot handle this.


Then UK as you stated could have introduced those laws without Brexit. ERG should blame Tories in power for not doing so - who was Home Secretary?
Instead lying and blaming EU for EU immigration when UK could have so much more to control it.

You proved my point, thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Then UK as you stated could have introduced those laws without Brexit. ERG should blame Tories in power for not doing so - who was Home Secretary?
> Instead lying and blaming EU for EU immigration when UK could have so much more to control it.
> 
> You proved my point, thank you.


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *The truth is, people didn't know what they were voting for. A deal should have been reached before there was a vote. *


Lots of people will say that they knew, in broad terms anyway, what they voted for; the fact is that they did not know - could not have known - what they were going to get. We still don't.

That's why it's difficult to see an argument against asking them whether what is on offer is indeed what they wanted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't need facts.
> 
> The UK voted to leave.
> 
> When you leave a pub you don't wait for facts to leave the pub you leave.


Yes, who need facts indeed?
We should make decisions based on our fancies not facts.
Sponsored fancies.

Leaving EU is not a trip to the pub.
You can always go back to the pub.

Here we talk trading bloc.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> You don't need facts.
> The UK voted to leave.
> When you leave a pub you don't wait for facts to leave the pub.


*Haha, would you buy a house without knowing all of the facts? Or go into any *


Arnie83 said:


> Lots of people will say that they knew, in broad terms anyway, what they voted for; the fact is that they did not know - could not have known - what they were going to get. We still don't.
> 
> That's why it's difficult to see an argument against asking them whether what is on offer is indeed what they wanted.


*I feel this government have conned this country left right and centre. The world must be having a good laugh at us.*


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> What are the sources of these photos ? Of course there are good & bad in all, but the hard right are pumping a lot of propaganda to whip up hatred & fear.


I understand that. But I also think it isn't helpful to post pictures that make out there is no problem and the only people doing 'bad' things are state sponsored when it isn't the case.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> What don't you believe, that dispaced people aren't coming here?


I believe it. Just that those numbers are for worldwide and not specific to our situation. 


noushka05 said:


> I showed you evidence you asked for that French police are treating them brutally - are you still disputing it


The french police didn't start off with this tactic is what I'm saying. The people did not help themselves and did not use the help provided to them by the french.



noushka05 said:


> He died. He spent the last years of his life fighting for social justice & to help refugees. Harry was a WW2 veteran, so I'd say he was in a far better position to compare than either you or I. Tell that to the Jews.


Sad to hear of his death. Please do not compare brexit to the holocaust.

I read articles from the bbc, telegraph and even the guardian if I want a different viewpoint.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The global laughing stock just gets greater.
> View attachment 386908
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...t-looms/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6fac628cc199
> 
> View attachment 386909
> 
> 
> :Hilarious


Just to put things into perspective!

*MEDIA BIAS/FACT CHECK*
*The Most Comprehensive Media Bias Resource*

*Washington Post*
_*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*

Share:
FacebookTwitterGoogle+PinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare167
*LEFT-CENTER BIAS*
These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Left-Center sources.

Factual Reporting: *HIGH*
Country:* USA*
World Press Freedom Rank: *USA 45/180*

*History*

The Washington Post, headquartered in Washington D.C., was founded in 1877 by Stilson Hutchins. He was a journalist, publisher and passionate Democrat that later became a Missouri state representative for the Democratic Party and operated The Post until 1889. Republican financier Eugene Meyer bought The Washington Post in 1946. After Meyer stepped down to become head of the Federal Reserve, his son-in-law, Philip Graham, became publisher. In 1947, after Philip Graham committed suicide, his wife, Katharine Meyer Graham took over the Washington Post Company. She was the first female publisher of a major American newspaper. Her son, Donald Graham, became publisher in 1979. Donald Graham, was the chairman of The Post before selling it to Jeffrey P. Bezos, the founder of Amazon. Katharine Weymouth, a granddaughter of Katharine Meyer Graham and niece of Donald Graham served as the publisher of The Washington Post until her resignation in 2014. Currently, Frederick J. Ryan Jr., the founder of Politico and a former Reagan administration official is the Publisher and CEO of The Post. Martin Baron is the executive editor.

*Funded by / Ownership*

In 2013, Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos bought The Washington Post for $250 million. Bezos is a frequent target of Trump, who has accused the businessman of using the Postal System as its "Delivery Boy." The newspaper's executive editor, Martin Baron said Jeff Bezos, who founded Amazon, is not involved in its news coverage. According to a NY Magazine article "Bezos is libertarian who has given money to anti-tax initiatives in the past" and supports gay marriage through donations. Bezos also donated to both Democratic and Republican Senators respectively.

*Analysis / Bias*

The Washington Post played a part with The New York Times in publishing excerpts of the Pentagon Papers in 1971. The original papers can be viewed Here. The Washington Post started reporting on Watergate in 1972, linking the DNC break-in to Nixon's campaign and eventually brought down the administration of President Richard Nixon.

According to Pew Research, the Washington Post is more trusted by a liberal readers than conservatives. However, in 2016, The Washington Post published an anti-Bernie Sanders editorial "Bernie Sanders's fiction-filled campaign" that the New Republic called an "embarrassment."

The Washington Post was involved in a scandal in 1980, when they published an article by Janet Cooke that won the Pulitzer Prize. Cooke later returned the Pulitzer Prize when it turned out the story was not true.

In review, The Washington Post publishes stories with emotionally loaded headlines such as "Trump escalates China trade war, announces plan for tariffs on $200 billion in products" and in editorials "The Trump administration created this awful border policy. It doesn't need Congress to fix it." When it comes to sourcing they typically utilize credible sources such as Propublica.org, Associated Press, Slate, Princeton.edu, New York Times, wired.comand CNN. Story selection and editorials tend to favor the left with the Washington Post only endorsing Democratic candidates since 1976, including Hillary Clinton in the last election.

Overall, we rate The Washington Post Left-Center biased due to story selection that favors the left and factually High due to the use of proper sources. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 6/19/2018)


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> I understand that. But I also think it isn't helpful to post pictures that make out there is no problem and the only people doing 'bad' things are state sponsored when it isn't the case.


 Two sides to every coin


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *Haha, would you buy a house without knowing all of the facts? Or go into any *
> 
> *I feel this government have conned this country left right and centre. The world must be having a good laugh at us.*


Believe me!!! They ask me all the time - how Brits could ever be sold on such shameless lies? How anyone can trust ERG and JRM ?
Meaning ordinary common people.
I remind them then about popularity of Franco at some time... 
Nothing changed as to demagoguery.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> Rather disrespectful post...
> It is a debate, are you short of arguments so you move to that?


Not really when KK goes around saying some posters are vile, naive etc. I don't mind it but some others might


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *Haha, would you buy a house without knowing all of the facts? Or go into any *
> 
> *I feel this government have conned this country left right and centre. The world must be having a good laugh at us.*


But we do know what the EU is like and that is why the UK voted to leave their house/organisation.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 386912


Imagine that if anyone from Remain posted this in reply that would be an outrage, thread closed or member banned for insulting you.
Memes, gifs etc...

I think though that better to leave it without bothering mods as s proof that you run out of anything meritorious to say...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine that if anyone from Remain posted this in reply that would be an outrage, thread closed or member banned for insulting you.
> Memes, gifs etc...
> 
> I think though that better to leave it without bothering mods as s proof that you run out of anything meritorious to say...


Perhaps the mods should be alerted to some of the things kk has been saying. I will correct some remainers when they are wrong cheekyscrip and have. It is clear kk has no experience in living in another European country and feels it is right to call leave voters names and make vile comments comparing the UK to nazi germany and hitler and every other vile thing he has compared the UK to and the Government.

I dare someone to count how many times kk has mentioned hitler, comparing the UK to germany in the 1930's, name calling leave voters and brexitiers, imagining the uk under a dictatorship, there might be a few things I missed off but it is ridiculous to say the least.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Perhaps the mods should be alerted to some of the things kk has been saying. I will correct some remainers when they are wrong cheekyscrip and have. It is clear kk has no e wexperience in living in another European country and feels it is right to call leave voters names and make vile comments comparing the UK to nazi germany and hitler and every other vile thing he has compared the UK to and the Government.
> 
> I dare someone to count how many times kk has mentioned hitler, comparing the UK to germany in the 1930's, name calling leave voters and brexitiers, imagining the uk under a dictatorship, there might be a few things I missed off but it is ridiculous to say the least.


Dear me, you are getting desperate.
Is Brexit not going the way you hoped it would? I've tried to be light hearted and have even criticised Corbyn and the far left as well.

But there's nothing funny about the way May treats "Non British" people, forcing them to pay to apply to stay, valued for years they now get called queue jumpers.

I stand by what I've said on that 100%. If that gets me banned so be it, but I'm proud to speak up for many of the people that are friends of mine.

And I have NOT called Leave voters names here, that's a lie. Why would I do such a thing?

Disagreeing with Brexiters isn't calling them names.

Perhaps I embarrassed you when I reminded you of your bragging about your rights to an EU/ Irish passport for you to turn on me like this. Or you are typical of what I see from many Brexiters: angry, aggressive and full of hatred. That's not name calling, but an observation.

You want me banned for expressing my personal views and those of very many others because you don't agree with them? That's down to the moderators, not yourself.

Perhaps I'm right to suggest the UK is becoming a right wing dictatorship if you think this way.

Don't bother replying. You are on ignore.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> But we do know what the EU is like and that is why the UK voted to leave their house/organisation.


*It's ok saying we know what the EU is like, but what will they be like once we leave " their house?" And this is the million dollar question.*
*As things stand, i would like a deal sorted out, then put to the country, and then a vote to see if the people agree. Let's not forget, the government are there working for the people. Well at least they should be.*


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> But we do know what the EU is like and that is why the UK voted to leave their house/organisation.


True. Negative vote all along.

Add - we blame EU for all that went wrong but we should have dealt with ourselves.
Many of those issues are addressed and solved in other EU countries - like Holland.
But our politicians prefer to lie that they cannot do it because of EU.


KittenKong said:


> Dear me, you are getting desperate.
> Is Brexit not going the way you hoped it would?
> 
> And I have NOT called Leave voters names, why would I do such a thing?
> Did I embarrass you when I reminded you of your bragging about your rights to an Irish passport for you to turn on me like this.
> 
> You want me banned for expressing my personal views and those of very many others? That's down to the moderators, not yourself.
> 
> Perhaps I'm right to suggest the UK is becoming a right wing dictatorship if you think this way.
> 
> Don't bother replying. You are on ignore.


Hitler, Mussolini, Franco were all skillful demagogues very much playing to the tune "Germany, Spain, Italy First ".
Stark warning where that leads to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hitler, Mussolini, Franco were all skillful demagogues very much playing to the tune "Germany, Spain, Italy First ".
> Stark warning where that leads to.


Oh no it's kk number 2.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> *Hitler, Mussolini*,


Before you turn into kittenkong please understand my grandad fought against the armies of these 2 and saw things no one should ever see and I don't appreciate some remainers comparing the UK to this period in history or leave voters/brexitiers or the Government of this country to either of the 2 mentioned people high lighted above in bold. I just think when some remainers do this they are stooping to all time lows.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The global laughing stock just gets greater.
> View attachment 386908
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...t-looms/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6fac628cc199
> 
> View attachment 386909
> 
> 
> :Hilarious


I really can't understand why you are living in a country that you have such disdain for


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I really can't understand why you are living in a country that you have such disdain for


I think the same should be said to noushka as well as she cannot say one positive thing about the UK.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I really can't understand why you are living in a country that you have such disdain for





stockwellcat. said:


> I think the same should be said to noushka as well as she cannot say one positive thing about the UK.


I've often pondered what the pair of them are going to do when we're no longer part of the EU.

If things are going to be as bad as they predict, if it was me I'd be looking to rent a yurt somewhere like Mongolia.

I'm told that Ulan Bator is rather nice!


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> Before you turn into kittenkong please understand my grandad fought against the armies of these 2 and saw things no one should ever see and I don't appreciate some remainers comparing the UK to this period in history or leave voters/brexitiers or the Government of this country to either of the 2 mentioned people high lighted above in bold. I just think when some remainers do this they are stooping to all time lows.


*Times have changed. I can understand people comparing the likes of this country to how Hitler was. People are being allowed to die in this country because this government are evil, just like Hitler. Take a look on the internet, many people feel the same way. Also i might add, there are still people in this world that have to see things we would only imagine in our worst nightmare. We as a race have not learnt a thing from history and never will because there are too many, greedy evil people making money from other peoples suffering.*


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I really can't understand why you are living in a country that you have such disdain for


What a short, sweet and succinct point you make, @rona!!
And what long ignore lists some people must have!! I think before long there might just be one remainer left on this thread, not a single leaver, and even then it won't get closed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> * People are being allowed to die in this country because this government are evil, just like Hitler. Take a look on the internet, many people feel the same way. *


What makes you think Corbyn would be any different?
He makes promises now but as soon as he gets into power they will be broken and then the same rethoric will take place from remainers as Corbyn wants the UK to leave the EU as well. Sorry I will correct myself. One of his promises has already been broken. Let's remember 24 hours ago the EU said the deal on the table is not open for renegotiation so that blows Corbyn's promise to renegotiate it out of the pond. This is the promise he made and has already been blown out of the pond by the EU Leaders. Be careful what you wish for.

Yes it is terrible people are dying on the streets in the UK. One wonders how bad the homeless problem is in the rest of Europe? Let's not forget the illegal migrants moving across Europe without ID or Identification papers in that figure. Migrants in other European countries are being told to go home and to stop coming as they are not welcome by the way. How many homeless people are dying in other European Countries?


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> What makes you think Corbyn would be any different?
> He makes promises now but as soon as he gets into power they will be broken and then the same rethoric will take place from remainers as Corbyn wants the UK to leave the EU as well. Sorry I will correct myself. One of his promises has already been broken. Let's remember 24 hours ago the EU said the deal on the table is not open for renegotiation so that blows Corbyn's promise to renegotiate it out of the pond. This is the promise he made and has already been blown out of the pond by the EU Leaders. Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Yes it is terrible people are dying on the streets in the UK. One wonders how bad the homeless problem is in the rest of Europe? Let's not forget the illegal migrants moving across Europe without ID or Identification papers in that figure.


*In all my years, i have never seen a government in this country worse than what we have now. Maggie was bad, and lead the way for subsequent tory leader to get worse than her. Now i haven't got a clue how things will turn out if JC becomes PM, but i'll bet he will be fairer and more caring. As for promises, haha, you show me one politician that hasn't broken a promise.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *In all my years, i have never seen a government in this country worse than what we have now. Maggie was bad, and lead the way for subsequent tory leader to get worse than her. Now i haven't got a clue how things will turn out if JC becomes PM, but i'll bet he will be fairer and more caring. As for promises, haha, you show me one politician that hasn't broken a promise.*


But in all fairness.
Has nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## Arnie83

Thinking about this 'We knew what we voted for' stuff ...

Let's say that May's deal is the one on offer. The Leave voters will logically have a variety of reactions.

That's exactly what I want
I wanted something much 'harder' with no ties to any EU institution / body / agency at all
I wanted to keep all the benefits of the single market but without the fees
That's nothing like what I wanted; I'd prefer to stay
They all seem to me reasonable responses. In which case how can anyone possibly know what the Will of the People is, now that we have completed the 2 years of negotiations? And how can we possibly say that you have to stay with your original decision of 30 months ago even if you thought you were voting for something completely different from what is actually on offer?

Does not a sensible definition of democracy demand that the People are asked what they now think? Are not those who want to deny them the opportunity being undemocratic?

I'll be interested to see all answers.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> But in all fairness.
> Has nothing to do wirh Brexit


*Ok to sum up what i was trying to say is this. Because i think JC is a more genuine person, i would trust him with brexit. He won't sell us to the highest bidder. Having said that, i also know we can talk about this and never come up with an answer, and that's because we don't know all we need to know.*
*I have found this thread most interesting. We all live in the same country, but see things through different eyes.*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> What are the sources of these photos ? Of course there are good & bad in all, but the hard right are pumping a lot of propaganda to whip up hatred & fear.


Not photos but articles ......

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-03/germany-must-come-to-terms-with-refugee-crime

https://www.politico.eu/article/swe...ty-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...ve-a-problem-with-criminal-refugees-1.3345325


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I have found this thread most interesting. We all live in the same country, but see things through different eyes.*


*

So maybe it's time to stop bickering for a while, we'll have plenty of time in 2 weeks and and after the end of March*


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Perhaps the mods should be alerted to some of the things kk has been saying. I will correct some remainers when they are wrong cheekyscrip and have. It is clear kk has no experience in living in another European country and feels it is right to call leave voters names and make vile comments comparing the UK to nazi germany and hitler and every other vile thing he has compared the UK to and the Government.
> 
> *I dare someone to count how many times kk has mentioned hitler, comparing the UK to germany in the 1930's*, name calling leave voters and brexitiers, imagining the uk under a dictatorship, there might be a few things I missed off but it is ridiculous to say the least.


Well I don't propose to spend my valuable time going through all 366 pages of this thread but I will give you a few samples of KK's which I personally found highly objectionable!

Post 6940 A photo of Hitler rallying support which KK likened to the referendum

Post 7049 From FB : "Referendum on Death Penalty"

Post 7056 From FB: Copy of Aron Turner's version of Hitler's tactics during the 1930's
.
Plus numerous remarks which refer to TM and/or the Government to be vile and facist!


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws said:


> *
> So maybe it's time to stop bickering for a while, we'll have plenty of time in 2 weeks and and after the end of March*


*I thought people were doing great, no falling out. It's good to talk. lol *


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> LOL Have you ever felt more embarrassed to be British?


I've lived overseas for more than half my life and have always been proud of my country and tried to be a good ambassador for Britain.

Unfortunately, it's people like you I'm ashamed of and embarrassed by who seem to forget they have so much to be grateful for being born in this country.

https://matadornetwork.com/read/10-things-brits-can-proud/


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Well I don't propose to spend my valuable time going through all 366 pages of this thread but I will give you a few samples of KK's which I personally found highly objectionable!
> 
> Post 6940 A photo of Hitler rallying support which KK likened to the referendum
> 
> Post 7049 From FB : "Referendum on Death Penalty"
> 
> Post 7056 From FB: Copy of Aron Turner's version of Hitler's tactics during the 1930's
> .
> Plus numerous remarks which refer to TM and/or the Government to be vile and facist!


I thought 7049 was quite apposite, in that it uses an example where Parliamentary opinion is considerably different from that of the public. Down to the individual I guess (and I don't want to resurrect it!).

I do find mention of Hitler's tactics a bit daft but mainly because it focuses minds on the evil individual rather than the tactics and thereby obscures the point being made. Identifying 'the other' and rallying support against them is age-old and proven. I while I completely disagree that May or anyone involved in Brexit is anything like Hitler, to me the use of tribalism in the referendum campaign and its relevance in the current situation is very evident and should not be dismissed because of unnecessarily provocative associations.


----------



## kimthecat

KKs mentioned Hitler 12 times in this thread and Nazi 22 times.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> LOL Have you ever felt more embarrassed to be British?


I'm not embarrassed, because I don't think what the country does is any reflection on me. (In the same way I've never been proud of being British; I take pride in what I do, not in what is or has been done by others who live in the same organisational construct as me.)

I do, though, feel more disassociated than I have done before.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> KKs mentioned Hitler 12 times in this thread and Nazi 22 times.



You must be bored today :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> You must be bored today :Hilarious


:Hilarious How did you guess.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious How did you guess.


This will be my last day on here for 14 days as I will be entertaining my dad from tomorrow.


----------



## Arnie83

This is interesting from the BBC Fact-check.

*Brexit: Could Channel Ports cope with no deal?*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46739895

This bit is a little annoying to me ...

Supporters of Brexit, though, have said consistently that the threat of chaos at Dover has been exaggerated. Jacob Rees-Mogg has often quoted a statistic that it takes only six seconds to complete customs checks for goods arriving at the port of Southampton from outside the EU. There is, he has suggested, no reason why ports such as Dover cannot implement similar systems.

DP World Southampton, which operates the container terminal with the Port of Southampton, confirmed that customs declarations are processed in approximately six seconds, but it emphasised that, at that point, the cargo is not customs-cleared.

It normally takes about an hour for customs clearance to be completed after a vessel arrives at port, but crucially that depends on customs declarations and other documents being submitted "typically 2 to 3 days before" the ship reaches Southampton.​
Does Rees-Mogg not know this? Or is he still trying to con people into thinking that No Deal is anything but a stupid idea because by the time they find out it will be too late, and he can blame all sorts of other people for the mess?


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> This will be my last day on here for 14 days as I will be entertaining my dad from tomorrow.


We'll see you after the meaningful vote then

Enjoying your break with your Dad


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> no falling out.


 Maybe not visibly, @JANICE199, but I've had to add another to my _''ignore list''_ as she is so patronising, and not just to me; to anyone who does not share her views on - well, everything. In fact, I only have two on my _''ignore list'',_ both from the Brexit thread (tho' I am informed that one of them no longer posts on PF).


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Or you are typical of what I see from many Brexiters: angry, aggressive and full of hatred. That's not name calling, but an observation.


I am not angry or aggressive or full of hatred. You should see some of your posts and noushka's. You both seem very angry and aggressive and full of hatred towards brexitiers and leave voters and let's not forget Parliament and the Government.


> You want me banned for expressing my personal views and those of very many others because you don't agree with them? That's down to the moderators, not yourself.


Nope I do not want to get you banned. Your views are very extreme to say the least.


> Perhaps I'm right to suggest the UK is becoming a right wing dictatorship if you think this way.


See what I mean. But admittedly this is the lower end of the extreme posts you have posted and noushka.


> Don't bother replying. You are on ignore.


You said that before and replied.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 and @KittenKong enjoy yourselves over the next 14 days with the drivel you post but I know my absence will not be missed by you both. But I will be totally taking my mind off Brexit and entertaining my dad as he is coming to Oxfordshire. I won't even be reading or watching the news so won't even know what happens in the meaningful vote on the 14th January 2018.

I wonder if this thread will still be here when I come back with the extreme posts you make?

But hey enjoy yourselves. I will be 

My conscience is clear btw 

stockwellcat is signing off for now.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> This will be my last day on here for 14 days as I will be entertaining my dad from tomorrow.


What , not even a sneaky peek? Have a great time with your dad.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> stockwellcat is signing off for now.


Yeah yeah yeah........heard that one before 

Have a nice time with your dad


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 and @KittenKong enjoy yourselves over the next 14 days with the drivel you post but I know my absence will not be missed by you both. But I will be totally taking my mind off Brexit and entertaining my dad as he is coming to Oxfordshire. I won't even be reading or watching the news so won't even know what happens in the meaningful vote on the 14th January 2018.
> 
> I wonder if this thread will still be here when I come back with the extreme posts you make?
> 
> But hey enjoy yourselves. I will be
> 
> My conscience is clear btw
> 
> stockwellcat is signing off for now.


Enjoy your time with your dad. He's far more important than any debate!

I for one will miss you!

Bye for now and see you in a couple of weeks if not here then on the games or cat forum!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I've tried to be light hearted and have even criticised Corbyn and the far left as well.
> 
> .


You've also been misleading and been extremely angry, your " light heartedness" is at Leavers expense and most people here both Leavers and Remain have criticised Corbyn and far left and far right too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Before you turn into kittenkong please understand my grandad fought against the armies of these 2 and saw things no one should ever see and I don't appreciate some remainers comparing the UK to this period in history or leave voters/brexitiers or the Government of this country to either of the 2 mentioned people high lighted above in bold. I just think when some remainers do this they are stooping to all time lows.


Dear SWC , just to remind you that I am from country that suffered under German and Russian occupation more than any other.
My grandfather thought in 1939, other helped escaping Jews and hid guerrilla fighters... Stalinist prison etc..
I can tell you that German Hans Blogg , Italian Giovanni Blogg, Russian Ivan Blogg or Spanish Juan Blogg are just the same ordinary people. 
No different at all than John Blogg.

Xenophobia, tribalism, "us 
and them" mentality made ordinary people to back up, to support those war criminals.

Brexit is very much " us and them", seeing EU countries as our enemies.
Trump does the same - EU is the baddies and Russia is new bff.

The very idea of EU was born after WWII where our ancestors fought.
To make sure our countries are never at war again against each other and together we can keep Russia at bay.

Those who sponsored ERG have good business with Putin. Facts, not speculations.

Putin is a serious threat to democracy. So is Trump.

Not EU , imperfect as it is.

Putin and Trump want EI weaker and split.
This is what Brexit does.

If you could just see the bigger picture.


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Dear SWC , just to remind you that I am from country that suffered under German and Russian occupation more than any other.
> My grandfather thought in 1939, other helped escaping Jews and hid guerrilla fighters... Stalinist prison etc..
> I can tell you that German Hans Blogg , Italian Giovanni Blogg, Russian Ivan Blogg or Spanish Juan Blogg are just the same ordinary people.
> No different at all than John Blogg.
> 
> Xenophobia, tribalism, "us
> and them" mentality made ordinary people to back up, to support those war criminals.
> 
> Brexit is very much " us and them", seeing EU countries as our enemies.
> Trump does the same - EU is the baddies and Russia is new bff.
> 
> The very idea of EU was born after WWII where our ancestors fought.
> To make sure our countries are never at war again against each other and together we can keep Russia at bay]


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 and @KittenKong enjoy yourselves over the next 14 days with the drivel you post but I know my absence will not be missed by you both. But I will be totally taking my mind off Brexit and entertaining my dad as he is coming to Oxfordshire. I won't even be reading or watching the news so won't even know what happens in the meaningful vote on the 14th January 2018.
> 
> I wonder if this thread will still be here when I come back with the extreme posts you make?
> 
> But hey enjoy yourselves. I will be
> 
> My conscience is clear btw
> 
> stockwellcat is signing off for now.


Enjoy yourself, @stockwellcat.,









and go easy on the Hobgoblin!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

deleted double posted


----------



## KittenKong

A Mickey take surely, but...


----------



## Elles

Yes, a mickey take and fake news for comedic effect. Some folk will believe anything.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 386992
> 
> 
> A Mickey take surely, but...
> 
> View attachment 386993


To put it into perspective .......

https://thetab.com/uk/manchester/20...h-from-st-peters-square-40246?fbclid=IwAR1XIf


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yes, a mickey take and fake news for comedic effect. Some folk will believe anything.


Indeed, but it's this sort of thing which led to the Brexit vote in the first place and just adds to the bendy bananas, metrication and anti H&S etc. etc. people were drip fed over the past 40 years.

Now they're adding the EU are forcing a bakery to produce a vegetarian/vegan sausage roll to the list to keep up the pro Brexit momentum.

The EDL, like the media, aren't stupid, but know their followers are.

I'm reminded of a Sun article about a Labour controlled town accused of punishing its people for voting for Brexit by erecting footpath direction signs in metric.

A local complained to the council arguing they voted to leave the EU to stop this sort of thing from happening!


----------



## KittenKong

Their Theresa is delivering the Brexit they voted for, yet they're still not happy.

Will certain people here argue how dare they insult their Prime Minister by calling her a traitor?























https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-far-right-brexit-roads-bridges-a8713081.html


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Honestly  I had to change my council tax recently , lived here years and had to tick the same question .
> A couple of years ago the Barclays bank , been with them since 1984 and same address, contacted me and I had to fill in a form and send proof of who I was etc . It was to do with money laundering.


Yep, had the same from Lloyds. They seemed to think I was resident in the US for tax purposes for some reason.....


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.france24.com/en/2019010...y-ports-impede-migrants-britain-brexit-calais


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387033
> View attachment 387034
> 
> :Hilarious


I'd be more impressed if they could spell the plural of 'nappy'!


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> I'd be more impressed if they could spell the plural of 'nappy'!


Me too, tho' I guess this is what you get when you quote DE?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I've tried to be light hearted


I don't think I'd like to see what you say when you mean it then.


----------



## kimthecat

I can remember the days when men didnt change babies nappies and wouldnt be seen dead pushing a pram .


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, but it's this sort of thing which led to the Brexit vote in the first place and just adds to the bendy bananas, metrication and anti H&S etc. etc. people were drip fed over the past 40 years.
> 
> Now they're adding the EU are forcing a bakery to produce a vegetarian/vegan sausage roll to the list to keep up the pro Brexit momentum.
> 
> The EDL, like the media, aren't stupid, but know their followers are.
> 
> I'm reminded of a Sun article about a Labour controlled town accused of punishing its people for voting for Brexit by erecting footpath direction signs in metric.
> 
> A local complained to the council arguing they voted to leave the EU to stop this sort of thing from happening!


It really wasn't about sausage rolls...…


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 386695
> 
> I think they look nice.
> Then in October next year they will be
> View attachment 386696
> 
> Seriously though. No Brexit isn't just about the passport turning Blue or even taking European Union off it. You must have ignored every leave and none leavers comment over the last 2 years if you really think it boils down to the UK Passport.


Well, of course you would think that.

You forgot to mention they're being manufactured in France. It would be hilarious if they carried the wording, "Manufactured in the EU".

And, you're right in your last paragraph. They want the crown put back on pint glasses, car number plates to be banned from displaying the EU flag, (my 67 reg car proudly displays this and would be removed over my dead body) and Greggs banned from producing vegan sausage rolls to name some other Brexit wishes.

Yes indeed. Brexit isn't just about blue passports.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I can remember the days when men didnt change babies nappies and wouldnt be seen dead pushing a pram .


No, because they were out making the bacon.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> It really wasn't about sausage rolls...…


Just shows how stupid some people can be doesn't it?
*
Brexit rally outside Greggs mistaken for anti-vegan sausage roll protest*

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/05/brex...gan-sausage-roll-protest-8313027/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

*No, The EDL Are Not Protesting Vegan Sausages At Greggs*

*https://www.buzzfeed.com/ikrd/edl-protest-greggs-vegan-sausage-roll-fake-news*


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'd be more impressed if they could spell the plural of 'nappy'!


Not guilty as I didn't post the original comment. I've tried to correct it as best I can using editing software I'm not too familiar with yet.



MilleD said:


> I don't think I'd like to see what you say when you mean it then.


Is that intended to be confusing?!



MilleD said:


> It really wasn't about sausage rolls...…


But it was about, "Lefty vegan scum" if you read the EDL post, you know the type of people they accuse of being, "Remoaners", not forgetting the, "Take back control of our sausage rolls" type of statement that suggests to people it's an EU ruling.

Yes, I can see that, but seeing people blame the EU for everything else they'll blame them for that too.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> But it was about, "Lefty vegan scum" if you read the EDL post, you know the type of people they accuse of being, "Remoaners", not forgetting the, "Take back control of our sausage rolls" type of statement that suggests to people it's an EU ruling.
> 
> Yes, I can see that, but seeing people blame the EU for everything else they'll blame them for that too.


It wasn't. The police just happened to be holding them outside of Greggs to prevent disruption to the tram service.

The EDL post was doctored. Which goes to show you shouldn't believe everything you read.


----------



## Magyarmum

@MilleD You're wasting your breath. He obviously didn't read what I posted

Wonder if I'm on ignore?



Magyarmum said:


> Just shows how stupid some people can be doesn't it?
> *
> Brexit rally outside Greggs mistaken for anti-vegan sausage roll protest*
> 
> Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/05/brex...gan-sausage-roll-protest-8313027/?ito=cbshare
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/
> 
> *No, The EDL Are Not Protesting Vegan Sausages At Greggs*
> 
> *https://www.buzzfeed.com/ikrd/edl-protest-greggs-vegan-sausage-roll-fake-news*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> @MilleD You're wasting your breath. He obviously didn't read what I posted
> 
> Wonder if I'm on ignore?


It's possible


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> It wasn't. The police just happened to be holding them outside of Greggs to prevent disruption to the tram service.
> 
> The EDL post was doctored. Which goes to show you shouldn't believe everything you read.


Ahem, I'm not prepared to go to an EDL Facebook page to go and check, so, ahem, how do you definitely know this was doctored?

The language used was comparatively mild from the hatred the mob stand for, so maybe it was...

But I wouldn't put it past any Brexit supporting group to blame the EU for a bakery making vegan sausage rolls in addition to the other stupid things it gets blamed for.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I can remember the days when men didnt change babies nappies and wouldnt be seen dead pushing a pram .


 Plus, of course, he now has the same nanny who used to be HIS nanny (think it was him) so assume she (lucky woman) used to change JR-M's nappies too. (The small but colourful world of a Rees-Mogg nanny, eh?)


----------



## KittenKong

Hmmm....


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, I'm not prepared to go to an EDL Facebook page to go and check, so, ahem, how do you definitely know this was doctored?
> 
> If it was, which of course is possible, I don't know either way, the language used was comparatively mild from the hatred the mob stand for.


There was no protest about sausage rolls, the whole thing was made up for a laugh to take the mickey out of the EDL. The guy responsible said he did it as a joke. The link is to the comdian, not the EDL.

https://mobile.twitter.com/danhett?...l-protest-greggs-vegan-sausage-roll-fake-news

Don't you find it heartening that the EDL could only muster about half a dozen blokes for their demonstration against the Eu? There were more police than protesters and there weren't many of those.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Not guilty as I didn't post the original comment.


I don't think @Arnie83 was suggesting this grammar mistake was yours . . . not how I read his post anyway.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Plus, of course, he now has the same nanny who used to be HIS nanny (think it was him) so assume she (lucky woman) used to change JR-M's nappies too. (The small but colourful world of a Rees-Mogg nanny, eh?)


Here you go .....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-Jacob-Rees-Moggs-nanny-changed-nappies.html


----------



## Elles

My son is in Europe now. He’s just driven across France. He says the tolls and cameras are blocked and/or burned so all the toll roads are being used for free atm. I wonder if the increase in people trying to get across to England in recent weeks has anything to do with the French authorities having other things on their plate atm.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I don't think @Arnie83 was suggesting this grammar mistake was your . . . not how I read his post anyway.


I know he didn't, but I still posted the screenshot without making corrections which was my responsibility. I have now done so with grateful thanks to Arnie for pointing it out.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> View attachment 387047


I've seen people wearing them in demonstrations for years, it's not just a french thing, so your point is????


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I've seen people wearing them in demonstrations for years, it's not just a french thing, so your point is????


Following the publicity given to the French "Yellow Vest" protestors this has been copied as a "Uniform" by others.

That was my point.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Here you go .....
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-Jacob-Rees-Moggs-nanny-changed-nappies.html


I hope you'll excuse me if, unusually, I don't click on your link in search of information!!


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Here you go .....
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-Jacob-Rees-Moggs-nanny-changed-nappies.html


She looks quite a formidable lady, don't you think? I reckon they should put her in charge of Brexit - bet she'd make a better job of it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I hope you'll excuse me if, unusually, I don't click on your link in search of information!!


Coward!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, I'm not prepared to go to an EDL Facebook page to go and check, so, ahem, how do you definitely know this was doctored?
> 
> The language used was comparatively mild from the hatred the mob stand for, so maybe it was...
> 
> But I wouldn't put it past any Brexit supporting group to blame the EU for a bakery making vegan sausage rolls in addition to the other stupid things it gets blamed for.


Google really is your friend you know.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Following the publicity given to the French "Yellow Vest" protestors this has been copied as a "Uniform" by others.
> 
> *That was my poin*t.


Not a very good, as it's been done for years


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Following the publicity given to the French "Yellow Vest" protestors this has been copied as a "Uniform" by others.
> 
> That was my point.


Amazing that , like someone else on here , you manage to piss off your side.


----------



## kimthecat

Um , its hardly worth doing this thread , we have so many people on ignore , that the conversations are one-sided.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants this mess over so we can get on our lives.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Following the publicity given to the French "Yellow Vest" protestors this has been copied as a "Uniform" by others.
> 
> That was my point.


To tell you the truth it never occurred to me that the yellow vests were being used as a "political" uniform. Possibly because I see people wearing "yellow vests" virtually every day.

In Hungary, they're standard issue for workmen cutting the grass, tidying the verges and cleaning the drainage ditches

Cyclists - and there are lots over here - wear them and in my area more often than not, particularly in summer, the police wear them.

Over that past couple of year the men that repair the roads now wear orange vest instead of yellow.


----------



## KittenKong

Remember this from the Leave campaign?










Hmmm.....








:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

They do here too. I wear a combination of yellow, pink and orange with flashing lights on my hat when I ride my horse and workmen are expected to wear hi-vis. We know that the French used the yellow as a uniform for protestors though and as it’s not something the EDL have utilised much previously, it was pretty obvious they were copying the French. It’s a bit of a none event though, that only got publicity because someone managed to snap them outside Greggs when the sausage roll controversy was in full swing. Half a dozen racists protesting against immigration and the Eu wouldn’t normally warrant a passing thought outside of their local area. It was a joke and quite a funny one, until people started having kittens about it.


----------



## Elles

So now they’re hiding their identity?

No, I don’t remember anything about the Eu and tea. I don’t drink tea. We don’t need a trade deal via the Eu to buy tea from India or anywhere else.

In fact implying that the Eu has control over our supplies of tea, is more likely to make people want to leave I’d say.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Remember this from the Leave campaign?
> 
> View attachment 387068
> 
> 
> Hmmm.....
> View attachment 387069
> 
> :Hilarious


Nope, don't remember that at all.
Did you fall for it then?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> you manage to piss off your side.


 Is that a colourful way of saying 'score an own goal'?


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Um , its hardly worth doing this thread , we have so many people on ignore , that the conversations are one-sided.
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants this mess over so we can get on our lives.


I only have one person on ignore and as I haven't seen the message about it on this thread, or any others I've been reading recently, I'm assuming he doesn't post atm, has been banned, or has left the forum. 

I scroll past a lot though, so I suppose I am ignoring some posts, if not technically the posters.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> To tell you the truth it never occurred to me that the yellow vests were being used as a "political" uniform. Possibly because I see people wearing "yellow vests" virtually every day.
> 
> In Hungary, they're standard issue for workmen cutting the grass, tidying the verges and cleaning the drainage ditches
> 
> Cyclists - and there are lots over here - wear them and in my area more often than not, particularly in summer, the police wear them.
> 
> Over that past couple of year the men that repair the roads now wear orange vest instead of yellow.


Apparently in France you are required by law to have one in your car (presumably while you are driving it); which I think is why they dug them out as the first demos were against (I think) fuel or other motoring costs.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Apparently in France you are required by law to have one in your car (presumably while you are driving it); which I think is why they dug them out as the first demos were against (I think) fuel or other motoring costs.


Quite correct - We have the same law in Hungary

*1. High visibility vest(s)*
A high visibility vest (one per passenger) must be carried inside the passenger compartment of your vehicle in case of a car breakdown.

Don't dismiss this as a silly rule - the French police will stop British-registered vehicles to check they have the correct equipment for driving in France.

If you breakdown on the motorway or need to repair a puncture, make sure you wear it as soon as you step out of the vehicle or you could risk a hefty fine.

The protests are about rising fuel prices.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/yellow-vests-protesting-france-181206083636240.html


----------



## Arnie83

*Ramsgate 'can not be ready' for Brexit ferries
*
"From local knowledge, there is terrific concern that we [Ramsgate Port] can not possibly by ready. There isn't the width or the breadth of the berths that is needed to carry large ships," the [Tory] councillor [Beverly Martin] said.​
"I don't see how, with the state of the harbour and the port and the number of repairs that are needed that it could be ready."​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46774054

Whether we're actually going to leave the EU or not, I think that an extension to Article 50 is the only sensible move. There is obviously no way a No Deal is in the national interest, supported as it is by just a few extremist MPs, and not many more seem to want May's deal. As soon as it is voted down next week, she needs to ask the EU for another year. Then go back to the People, who I hope have been listening to the facts.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Whether we're actually going to leave the EU or not, I think that an extension to Article 50 is the only sensible move. There is obviously no way a No Deal is in the national interest, supported as it is by just a few extremist MPs, and not many more seem to want May's deal. As soon as it is voted down next week, she needs to ask the EU for another year. Then go back to the People, who I hope have been listening to the facts.











Which of course is what she said the last time...

I have a feeling she'll try and delay it again if support isn't forthcoming.

I wouldn't be surprised then if she tries to cancel the vote indefinitely, then implement her plan unilaterally on Brexit day without the approval of parliament.

To think of what's she's got away with so far I wouldn't be surprised if she tries this.

And how would others in Parliament on both sides react, apart from her, "Yes Men" who'd argue she was acting in the National Interest?


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Not a very good, as it's been done for years


Yes it has, but I guess we have the media to thank for inventing the term. Rather like "White Van Man" and the likes.

Yes, people have worn them on past demos, but not to this extent.

The French demonstrators and the media have created a protest uniform.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I have a feeling she'll try and delay it again if support isn't forthcoming.
> 
> *I wouldn't be surprised then if she tries to cancel the vote indefinitely, then implement her plan unilaterally on Brexit day without the approval of parliament.*
> 
> To think of what's she's got away with so far I wouldn't be surprised if she tries this.
> 
> And how would others in Parliament on both sides react, apart from her, "Yes Men" who'd argue she was acting in the National Interest?


I expect you're exaggerating, but that won't happen.


----------



## Arnie83

If anyone reads this from Tory Brexiteer James Gray MP ( of the ERG and Leave Means Leave) on Sky News today ...

"It is perfectly possible, most of our trade, *96 percent of our trade around the world is done under World Trade Organisation terms* and the WTO made it plain it would be quite easy for us to do that."​
He is either lying, or remarkably uninformed.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Yes it has, but I guess we have the media to thank for inventing the term. Rather like "White Van Man" and the likes.
> 
> Yes, people have worn them on past demos, but not to this extent.
> 
> The French demonstrators and the media have created a protest uniform.


I doubt whether it was invented by the media because the French have done similar things before such as the Bonnet Rouge demonstrations in 2013, where the protesters wore red hats










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnets_Rouges

There's an interesting history about the red hat or Phyrgian Cap which dates back to ancient time but was adopted along with the "sans-culotte" during the French Revolution

https://www.thoughtco.com/phrygian-cap-bonnet-rouge-1221893.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I expect you're exaggerating, but that won't happen.


I hope you're right, but don't forget her unilaterally authorising the bombing with the US, (Don't recall the exact details), without initial parliamentary backing.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I hope you're right, but don't forget her authorising the bombing with the US, (Don't recall the exact details), without initial parliamentary backing.


https://fullfact.org/law/parliament-vote-military-intervention/

In brief

*Claim*
There is no constitutional requirement for a Parliamentary recall or vote before military intervention.

*Conclusion*
Correct. There's no legal requirement that parliament is involved in these decisions, the power rests with the Prime Minister, through the Crown.

Claim 1 of 2

"In the abstract there's no constitutional requirement either for a Parliamentary recall or for a parliamentary vote [for military action]."

Jo Johnson MP, 12 April 2018

"In a situation where there isn't that [imminent danger of an attack]... [it] has become the convention that Parliament is the place to authorise military action."

Barry Gardiner MP, 12 April 2018

The Prime Minister has the power-through the Crown-to decide when to take military action. There's no legal requirement that parliament is involved.


----------



## Snoringbear

700,000 remainers march peacefully with no arrests, 100 leave voters march with multiple arrests. Says it all really. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-far-right-brexit-roads-bridges-a8713081.html


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Is that a colourful way of saying 'score an own goal'?


Yes


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m looking for someone to build me a new house. Found someone who has no builders and has never built a house before. I was inspired by the government employing Seafreight for £14 million who have no ships or experience. Seems completely sensible to me but I’m trying to get on board with Brexit.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> 700,000 remainers march peacefully with no arrests, 100 leave voters march with multiple arrests. Says it all really. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-far-right-brexit-roads-bridges-a8713081.html


Indeed it does. The EDL and other extremist groups cause trouble and get arrested. Good to see the law being upheld, though it's a shame it's necessary. I presume these people don't think the money spent on them should be spent on the nhs instead. It should also be clear from the small numbers these people can rally, the majority of leave voters and the U.K. aren't racist, or extremist.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> I'm looking for someone to build me a new house. Found someone who has no builders and has never built a house before. I was inspired by the government employing Seafreight for £14 million who have no ships or experience. Seems completely sensible to me but I'm trying to get on board with Brexit.


There are thousands of house building companies to choose from. If they all said no in your area and a new company of builders offered to build your house, only being paid after they'd finished, you'd say no thanks?


----------



## Snoringbear

Anyone who voted leave reinforced their beliefs. It was extremely obvious that a vote for leave supported this before the referendum.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> Anyone who voted leave reinforced their beliefs. It was extremely obvious that a vote for leave supported this before the referendum.


Only in already warped minds or remainers minds


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> Anyone who voted leave reinforced their beliefs. It was extremely obvious that a vote for leave supported this before the referendum.


Supported what? The EDL?  Do you know anyone who voted to leave the Eu?


----------



## Snoringbear

Elles said:


> There are thousands of house building companies to choose from. If they all said no in your area and a new company of builders offered to build your house, only being paid after they'd finished, you'd say no thanks?


So you'd pay someone with no past experience or the means to do a job?

I've no experience of servicing cars. I'm going to buy the kit I need but when can I come round to service your car?

Only an idiot would be happy


----------



## Snoringbear

Elles said:


> Supported what? The EDL?  Do you know anyone who voted to leave the Eu?


Yep, many. They tend to be thick, uneducated fools.


----------



## Snoringbear

I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> So you'd pay someone with no past experience or the means to do a job?
> 
> I've no experience of servicing cars. I'm going to buy the kit I need but when can I come round to service your car?
> 
> Only an idiot would be happy


Did you look up the experience of the people running the new ferry company? The CEO is a Frenchman who ran MyFerryLink. The people behind it have run freight and ferry companies previously. If you bothered to look it up, it's could be worse than a start up company who have never had anything to do with ferries before. People are so engrossed with 'new' they've totally missed the old.


----------



## Snoringbear

One thing I’ve noticed in general with leave voters is that they are all whiners and criers. It’s always someone else’s fault. It’s either the EU, immigrants, refugees, Muslims etc. I got to where I am through hard work. Didn’t whine, just picked myself up and worked hard off my own back. Worked a crap job for 18 months while I trained myself up off my own back in my own time to get to get where I wanted to go. Didn’t need anyone else to help me just my own determination.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote.





Snoringbear said:


> Yep, many. They tend to be thick, uneducated fools.


Ouch. Are you representative of Remain voters?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Ouch. Are you representative of Remain voters?


Good example of why we voted out I think


----------



## O2.0

Trying to figure out if snoringbear is attempting satire or is for real....


----------



## Snoringbear

Just an observation. I’ve made loads of money off American investments due to the crash in the pound versus the dollar. But it doesn’t stop me thinking Brexit is stupid, I’d happily reverse it and lose the money.


----------



## Elles

O2.0 said:


> Trying to figure out if snoringbear is attempting satire or is for real....


I think it's for real.


----------



## Snoringbear

It’s all for real.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Just an observation. I've made loads of money off American investments due to the crash in the pound versus the dollar. .


and you call that hard work ? ???



Snoringbear said:


> I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote.


Then you don't know many Leavers . Some one has to do "dead end jobs " Oh wait , the Eastern Europeans do them and we pay them peanuts . That why you dont want to leave the EU .

Hands up anyone else who think Snoringbear is closet Tory !


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Only in already warped minds or remainers minds


Wait a minute! Aren't you one of those who insisted was not in any way influenced by the lies of the leave campaign?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Wait a minute! Aren't you one of those who insisted was not in any way influenced by the lies of the leave campaign?


Your point?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> and you call that hard work ? ???
> 
> Then you don't know many Leavers . Some one has to do "dead end jobs " Oh wait , the Eastern Europeans do them and we pay them peanuts . That why you dont want to leave the EU .
> 
> Hands up anyone else who think Snoringbear is closet Tory !


What if he is? What business is it of you and I anyway what political party he supports?

Many Conservatives are Remainers', there's even a Facebook page, "Tories Against Brexit". It's the far right element that have taken over the party that are pushing for Brexit.

The same could be said about Corbyn and the Labour party leadership.


----------



## Elles

Hah hah, lol. If the guy had come on here saying he supported leave...


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Your point?


Many Brexiters here took offence at the suggestion they were cheated and lied to by the leave campaign, insisting they would have voted Leave regardless as they were anti EU long before the referendum was announced.

I can understand that as it would be like yourself or others suggesting I was frightened into backing Remain through "Project Fear" in 2016 when the truth is I was and still am 100% behind the EU long before the referendum.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> What if he is? What business is it of you and I anyway what political party he supports?
> 
> Many Conservatives are Remainers', there's even a Facebook page, "Tories Against Brexit". It's the far right element that have taken over the party that are pushing for Brexit.
> 
> The same could be said about Corbyn and the Labour party.


:Hilarious  Have you not been following this thread ? According to many here and you the Tories have caused great poverty and homelessess etc etc ,and are despicable.
It was the Tories that allowed the Referendum and it was in their manifesto so Tory voters are to blame.

I'm laughing so much I'm not even missing SWC yet/


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> *Many Brexiters here took offence at the suggestion they were cheated and lied to by the leave campaign,* insisting they would have voted Leave regardless as they were anti EU long before the referendum was announced.


Not seen that on here, only in paper trails that you have put on



KittenKong said:


> I can understand that as it would be like yourself or others suggesting I was frightened into backing Remain through "Project Fear" in 2016 when the truth is I was and still am 100% behind the EU long before the referendum.


I never suggested anything like that as far as I can remember. However, I will admit to fighting back and saying silly stuff when being attacked early on by remainers.
I have however, now found my sense of humour again 

Anyway, the comment was not on this subject at all


----------



## KittenKong

Snoringbear said:


> One thing I've noticed in general with leave voters is that they are all whiners and criers. It's always someone else's fault. It's either the EU, immigrants, refugees, Muslims etc.


Spot on.


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> and you call that hard work ? ???
> 
> Then you don't know many Leavers . Some one has to do "dead end jobs " Oh wait , the Eastern Europeans do them and we pay them peanuts . That why you dont want to leave the EU .
> 
> Hands up anyone else who think Snoringbear is closet Tory !


Fortunately we have areas like Sunderland who decided to vote away their car production jobs because of immigrants taking their jobs who have now opened up a huge amount of fruit picking jobs for them.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m not a Tory voter btw.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Fortunately we have areas like Sunderland who decided to vote away their car production jobs because of immigrants taking their jobs who have now opened up a huge amount of fruit picking jobs for them.


So this is lies ?I dont think auto express has an agenda. Its not like they are a daily rag .

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/103285/nissan-plans-hundreds-of-job-losses-at-sunderland-plant

*Fall in diesel sales believed to be behind hundreds of job losses at Nissan's UK factory*
Hundreds of workers at Nissan's Sunderland plant are to lose their jobs, after company bosses said "operational changes" were causing it to enact a "short-term reduction in powertrain supply".

Nissan employs around 7,000 workers at its Sunderland plant, where the Qashqai, Juke and X-Trail SUVs are built. The new electric Leaf is also being built at the factory.

A recent downturn in the sales of diesel cars, which fell in popularity by 37.2 per cent last month, is said to be behind the job losses. Around half a million cars are produced by Nissan at Sunderland each year, with an estimated 25 per cent being diesel.

he spokesman categorically stated that the job losses were unconnected to the UK's forthcoming exit from the European Union, indicating that employee numbers should rise again in the future: "This is not related to Brexit. In time we expect volumes to increase as we prepare to launch the next generation Juke, Qashqai and X-Trail, all being built at NMUK."


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> I'm not a Tory voter btw.


OK It doesn't bother me what any one votes for as long as its not Farage or EDL or whatever they call themselves now.

You know , you;ve been insulting to ordinary workers , no matter what they voted .


----------



## Snoringbear

Yep. Diesel issues are a problem. But car manufacturers in the UK have been shifting plans to the EU since Brexit. Sunderland has gone now thanks to Brexit voters. Production will be shifted to the EU countries now due to the JIT production method. The trade deal between Japan and the EU has cemented that.


----------



## Snoringbear

JLR moving. Anyone who cast a vote to leave destroyed UK jobs.

https://media.jaguarlandrover.com/news/2018/10/jaguar-land-rover-opens-manufacturing-plant-slovakia


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> JLR moving. Anyone who cast a vote to leave destroyed UK jobs.
> 
> https://media.jaguarlandrover.com/news/2018/10/jaguar-land-rover-opens-manufacturing-plant-slovakia


Sorry I dont follow , have they closed factories in the UK here ?

It mentions currency fluctuations which affects profits.Thats nothing to do with leaving the EU.
It also mentions contracts with Brazil , and India . along with Slovakia its a lot cheaper to run factories there , I Imagine wages would be a lot lower and rates etc .

Two years of uncertainty and not having a plan has done damage as firms cant make plans .


----------



## Snoringbear

I guess that leaves Aston Martin here, but they now have Mercedes engines and a bunch of other imported components.


----------



## Snoringbear

The factories will close here once the current model closes out.


----------



## Snoringbear

That’ll be the same as any other car manufacturer once the model expires.


----------



## Snoringbear

Here’s a question for leave voters. 

You’re a car manufacturer with plants throughout Europe. The diesel issue has crippled you. You need to cut down your manufacturing plants.

One of these countries has decided to step out of the area where you have frictionless trade where parts can be transported without tariffs or the interference of custom checks, therefore destroying the JIT process modern cars are manufactured through. 

Where would you make cuts?


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Yep, many. They tend to be thick, uneducated fools.


 EDL are thick uneducated fools or people who voted to leave are thick uneducated fools? I cannot make head or tail of your posts and it might help if you quoted or tagged where appropriate.



Snoringbear said:


> The leave voters I know work dead end jobs


This is the sort of crap comment that will get this thread closed.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I'm laughing so much I'm not even missing SWC yet/


I am (reaches for box of tissues).


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I am (reaches for box of tissues).


Ok I am really . I'm counting the days til he's back .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Ok I am really . I'm counting the days til he's back


He'd enjoy today's performances!!


----------



## Snoringbear

Calvine said:


> EDL are thick uneducated fools or people who voted to leave are thick uneducated fools? I cannot make head or tail of your posts and it might help if you quoted or tagged where appropriate.
> 
> This is the sort of crap comment that will get this thread closed.


Both.


----------



## Snoringbear

Snoringbear said:


> Here's a question for leave voters.
> 
> You're a car manufacturer with plants throughout Europe. The diesel issue has crippled you. You need to cut down your manufacturing plants.
> 
> One of these countries has decided to step out of the area where you have frictionless trade where parts can be transported without tariffs or the interference of custom checks, therefore destroying the JIT process modern cars are manufactured through.
> 
> Where would you make cuts?


Still haven't had an answer. Should I break it down into single syllable words?


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Both.


 Why do you think this?


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Still haven't had an answer. Should I break it down into single syllable words?


Maybe you're on everyone ignore list or its really late at night and they re in bed , which is where I should be .

Its a general question and I assume every car manufacturer would also take into account the cost of wage which are higher in places like Germany etc etc and costs in each of the countries , which plants make the most diesel cars etc and then make a decision .

Being in the EU doesn't guarantee a car manufacturer wouldn't close a factory here.


----------



## Elles

Where products are manufactured depends on the manufacturer, their priorities and quite often who scratches whose back. After Brexit it will probably also depend on the kind of deal we have with the Eu and the rest of the World and what, if any, advantages there are to maintaining a presence in the U.K. 

I don’t know what will happen in the future. Electric cars aren’t sustainable. Diesel and petrol cars will be phased out. All the signs are pointing towards the necessity for a paradigm shift away from from individual motor vehicles. It could be that workers in the traditional motoring industry would be wise to make a move away from it now where possible, brexit or no Brexit.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Maybe you're on everyone ignore list or its really late at night and they re in bed , which is where I should be .
> Its a general question and I assume every car manufacturer would also take into account the cost of wage which are higher in places like German etc etc and costs in each of the countries and then make a decision .


I initially presumed the question was rhetorical and didn't require an answer.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I initially presumed the question was rhetorical and didn't require an answer.


It's hard to tell sometimes.  Night , night . !


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> Maybe you're on everyone ignore list or its really late at night and they re in bed , which is where I should be .
> 
> Its a general question and I assume every car manufacturer would also take into account the cost of wage which are higher in places like Germany etc etc and costs in each of the countries , which plants make the most diesel cars etc and then make a decision .
> 
> Being in the EU doesn't guarantee a car manufacturer wouldn't close a factory here.


You're answer demonstrated how utterly clueless leave voters are. Interesting that you avoided my question. It's going to be much cheaper to move production to Eastern European countries than it is to build in the UK. Thanks to leave voters that's moving now. That's a lot of tax moving outside of the country. I'm not sure where you leave voters think where the money to fund the NHS and welfare comes from. I have to presume they all think a fairy delivers it.


----------



## Elles

It’s already cheaper to build cars in many places in the world. That’s why manufacturers are setting up operations in places such as Turkey and Indonesia. As the manufacturers themselves are saying it’s nothing to do with Brexit, do you think they’re lying? 

The money to fund the nhs and welfare will come where it’s always come from. People like yourself who have well paid jobs, drive Porsches and pay taxes. Billion dollar corporates have ways of ensuring they pay as little tax as possible and of course the poor doing dead end menial jobs are exempt, or in receipt of tax credits. Lucky they have folk like yourself to support them.


----------



## KittenKong

Snoringbear said:


> Yep, many. They tend to be thick, uneducated fools.


The organisers are by no means thick and uneducated, Farage for example, but know a lot of people are.

And many voted Leave because papers like The Sun told them to. I don't believe for a minute had The Sun backed remain we would be in this mess now.

You'd be surprised at how many educated people voted Leave too, but nowadays tend to be the ones who now regret their vote and realise they were conned by promises of £350m for the NHS etc.

Here's part of an earlier post I did:


----------



## grumpy goby

I cannot see how the motor industry, in the long run will tolerate the additional costs and delays to their materials to make U.K. manufacture feasible... I may be wrong, but my gut feel is that it will suffer. Even British brands like Mini rely on German parts, someone is going to have to pay for the new levy's should they continue U.K. production. Maybe they will, and the price of services and vehicles will increase? I don't know.. I am no expert in car manufacture but I have been on the receiving end of a manufacturing plant moving to Europe for financial benefit.

The ferry thing is a wierd fiasco. Whilst the core business has experience in the industry mobilising in such a short period will be no mean feat. I have mobilised contracts from scratch before, when I started my last job I was the second Employee in the company in this country.. at least there was a corporate body of people abroad, but we had no staff, no office, no equipment, no processes and procedures... it's a big job, without the added pressure of the nations eye on your every move. And we were dealing with £4M contracts... not a £13M hugely complex operation.
If they have a smooth mobilisation it will be a big achievement, and they would have to be hiring some massively talented people to get it going off the ground.
Even things like recruitment, we needed 150 people and whilst we found bums on seats, it was hard to find the RIGHT people for the jobs...
On such an important and high profile contract you can afford to get that wrong.

@Snoringbear whilst I agree with you on many points, I'm not sure insulting the opposing factions intelligence or employment skill level is the way forward... its pretty counter production IMHO. It is a hugely complex issue with so much misinformation both sides, at the time and still now - people have their opinions and rightly or wrongly we are where we are.


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> Still haven't had an answer. Should I break it down into single syllable words?


It's a valid question, and similar to many I have posed to demonstrate that increased business costs, especially in relation to costs elsewhere in the EU, will damage UK industry, tax receipts, future growth & prosperity.

I think it is accepted by many - perhaps most - Leave supporters that this is the case, though there are some who will continue to claim that even the simplest of economic logic is nothing more than 'project fear' if it predicts anything but sunny uplands.

However, there were many more reasons for voting Leave than purely financial ones, and 'winning' the argument on an economic front is not the same as convincing the majority that the vote should be reversed should the opportunity arise.

If that is what you want to do, then you need to discuss those other arguments as well. Such a discussion is not going to be encouraged via the direct abuse of those who think differently from yourself.


----------



## Magyarmum

BMW have just committed to building a 1 Billion Euro plant in Hungary producing 150,000 conventional and electric cars and employing 1000 people.

https://bbj.hu/business/bmw-to-build-giant-plant-in-debrecen_152936

Mercedes have been building cars in Hungary for years

https://gyar.mercedes-benz.hu/index...edes-benz-a-class-made-in-hungary-is-complete

As have Suzuki ......

https://bbj.hu/business/suzuki-hungary-turns-out-3-million-cars-in-26-years_131730

And Audi

https://dailynewshungary.com/audi-will-also-be-manufacturing-electric-vehicles-in-hungary/

And Opel

https://autopro.hu/en/news/Opel-celebrates-25-years-in-Hungary/17537/

None of the car manufacturers listed above chose Hungary as the place to build their cars because they like goulash and Palinka! Some of the reasons for their moves would be :

Location: Hungary is placed in the Centre of Europe so convenient for distribution to other countries
Cost of Building : Building costs are much lower than in Germany or the UK.
Work force: Plentiful supply of workers with a wide range of skills
Wages are considerably lower than in Germany of the UK

And most importantly the incentives offered to these companies by the Hungarian Government!

JLR have already opened a new plant in Slovakia and will be opening a engineering centre in Budapest this year.

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...d-rover-to-open-technical-centre-in-budapest/[/QUOTE]

This was taken from the Press Announcement made by JLR which doesn't give the impression that they made the decision to move because of Brexit.

To quote:

"Global businesses require global operational footprints. While Jaguar Land Rover's heart and soul remain firmly anchored in the UK, expanding internationally only enriches and strengthens our UK business. Today's opening of our next generation manufacturing plant in Nitra, Slovakia represents the start of a new era in manufacturing for Jaguar Land Rover. It is the latest milestone in our long-term globalisation programme and the culmination of four years planning. As with our existing manufacturing facilities located in the UK, China, Brazil, India and Austria, this high-tech plant in Slovakia will complement and support our corporate, R&D and engineering functions headquartered in the UK".

*PROF. DR RALF SPETH
CEO, JAGUAR LAND ROVER*


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> You're answer demonstrated how utterly clueless leave voters are. Interesting that you avoided my question. It's going to be much cheaper to move production to Eastern European countries than it is to build in the UK. Thanks to leave voters that's moving now. That's a lot of tax moving outside of the country. I'm not sure where you leave voters think where the money to fund the NHS and welfare comes from. I have to presume they all think a fairy delivers it.


 I have answered your question .
You question was "
You're a car manufacturer with plants throughout Europe. The diesel issue has crippled you. You need to cut down your manufacturing plants.One of these countries has decided to step out of the area where you have frictionless trade where parts can be transported without tariffs or the interference of custom checks, therefore destroying the JIT process modern cars are manufactured through.

Where would you make cuts? "

I could have been facetious but I took your question at face value and took the trouble to answer it gone midnight and now you've accused me of not answering. You said cuts . I took that to mean about factories already here .You never asked about building in the UK . Its always going to be cheaper to build to in Eastern Europe .

Its a rhetorical question , and even you don't know the answer.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It's a valid question, and similar to many I have posed to demonstrate that increased business costs, especially in relation to costs elsewhere in the EU, will damage UK industry, tax receipts, future growth & prosperity.
> 
> I think it is accepted by many - perhaps most - Leave supporters that this is the case, though there are some who will continue to claim that even the simplest of economic logic is nothing more than 'project fear' if it predicts anything but sunny uplands.
> 
> However, there were many more reasons for voting Leave than purely financial ones, and 'winning' the argument on an economic front is not the same as convincing the majority that the vote should be reversed should the opportunity arise.
> 
> *If that is what you want to do, then you need to discuss those other arguments as well. Such a discussion is not going to be encouraged via the direct abuse of those who think differently from yourself.*


Thank you Arnie.

Although you and I will always disagree about politics the one thing i will always say about you is that you're a true gentleman and a fair person!


----------



## Arnie83

Boris Johnson in yesterday's Telegraph:

"In spite of - or perhaps because of - everything they have been told, it is *this [No Deal] future that is by some margin preferred by the British public*."​
He is clearly comparing it only to other Leave options, because, in a YouGov poll of more than 25,000 people reported in the Mail on Sunday:

"If the choice was EU membership or a no-deal Brexit, *the poll indicated a 58 per cent to 42 per cent win for Remain*."​
In Boris's democracy you are clearly not allowed to change your mind, especially if it gets in the way of his personal ambition. Expect Boris to come out ever more vocally in favour of No Deal. Quite a sea change for someone who had written both a Remain and a Leave article before deciding which one to submit at the last minute. One wonders what consideration made up his mind!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you Arnie.
> 
> Although you and I will always disagree about politics the one thing i will always say about you is that you're a true gentleman and a fair person!


Indeed and @Jesthar too.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Snoringbear said:


> I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how p





Snoringbear said:


> Still haven't had an answer. Should I break it down into single syllable words?


I'll answer. Yes you would look at cutting that part of your manufacturing chain. Also the high skilled job bit, so do I WAHEY, don't drive a porsche as I think they are a little too flashy and I can't get my dog in the back as an engine is there, plus I voted leave. 
But please put all your points into one post instead of 4-5 in a row. Makes it look a little better


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It's already cheaper to build cars in many places in the world. That's why manufacturers are setting up operations in places such as Turkey and Indonesia. A*s the manufacturers themselves are saying it's nothing to do with Brexit, do you think they're lying? *
> 
> The money to fund the nhs and welfare will come where it's always come from. People like yourself who have well paid jobs, drive Porsches and pay taxes. Billion dollar corporates have ways of ensuring they pay as little tax as possible and of course the poor doing dead end menial jobs are exempt, or in receipt of tax credits. Lucky they have folk like yourself to support them.


They're saying the opposite. They're not the ones lying.

*Rule out 'no-deal' Brexit now, negotiators urged, as SMMT warns £5bn tariffs threat just tip of iceberg for auto sector*
*
'No-deal' not an option for Auto, warns SMMT as limited progress pushes sector closer to cliff-edge.
New figures show application of tariffs could mean at least £5bn bill for EU-UK industry & consumers.
SMMT calls for all Brexit negotiators to be pragmatic, secure a withdrawal agreement and transition, and safeguard one of Europe's most valuable economic assets.
*


https://www.smmt.co.uk/2018/09/rule...s-threat-just-tip-of-iceberg-for-auto-sector/

Putting aside the impact assessments which say brexit will be potentially catastrophic for the NHS. We know brexit will make us poorer so less money for it.


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Does sound a little desperate doesn't it


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Sorry I dont follow , have they closed factories in the UK here ?


No, JLR are still expanding at i54.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Being in the EU doesn't guarantee a car manufacturer wouldn't close a factory here.


As evidenced by the past god knows how many years?


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> It's a valid question, and similar to many I have posed to demonstrate that increased business costs, especially in relation to costs elsewhere in the EU, will damage UK industry, tax receipts, future growth & prosperity.
> 
> I think it is accepted by many - perhaps most - Leave supporters that this is the case, though there are some who will continue to claim that even the simplest of economic logic is nothing more than 'project fear' if it predicts anything but sunny uplands.
> 
> However, there were many more reasons for voting Leave than purely financial ones, and 'winning' the argument on an economic front is not the same as convincing the majority that the vote should be reversed should the opportunity arise.
> 
> If that is what you want to do, then you need to discuss those other arguments as well. Such a discussion is not going to be encouraged via the direct abuse of those who think differently from yourself.


You're far too sensible for this place


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> Does sound a little desperate doesn't it


What tickled me most is when they used the wrong you're/your, after saying that leave voters are uneducated.

If I was going to say something like that, I'd make damn sure that my grammar was correct :Hilarious



Snoringbear said:


> You're answer demonstrated how utterly clueless leave voters are.t.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


I think this just about sums him up!


----------



## kimthecat

@Snoringbear I have a question for you.

You're a car manufacturer with plants throughout Europe and the UK remains in the EU. The diesel issue has crippled you. You need to cut down your manufacturing plants.
Where would you make the cuts ? Eastern Europe or the UK ?


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> What tickled me most is when they used the wrong you're/your, after saying that leave voters are uneducated.
> 
> If I was going to say something like that, I'd make damn sure that my grammar was correct
> Snoringbear said: ↑
> You're answer demonstrated how utterly clueless leave voters are.t.


I don't think Snoringbear counts grammar as education. Its how much money you earn that counts to him !


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I don't think Snoringbear counts grammar as education. Its how much money you earn that counts to him !
> 
> View attachment 387201


And don't forget the Porsche?


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> You're far too sensible for this place


I keep telling him that; both he and @Elles are far too well-balanced and reasonable. Shall we report them?


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> What tickled me most is when they used the wrong you're/your, after saying that leave voters are uneducated.


Well spotted indeed!! They always shoot themselves in the foot, given time, don't they? I missed that one; must be losing my marbles.


----------



## Britt

It looks like it's gonna be a no deal Brexit after all. Do you, folks, really want to leave Europe and have Mrs May as your Prime Minister?


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 Your link isn't to a car manufacturer and is talking about 'no deal'. It's unrelated to my post.

Others have linked manufacturers saying that their decisions have had nothing to do with Brexit.

If we leave with no deal the future will quite likely be different, but as I also said I can't predict the future, but motoring as it is today is unsustainable nonetheless.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I keep telling him that; both he and @Elles are far too well-balanced and reasonable. Shall we report them?


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> And don't forget the Porsche?


 I seem to recall it was a ''brand new'' Porsche. I bet he can't pronounce it though! (Maybe he means porchetta?)


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> I keep telling him that; both he and @Elles are far too well-balanced and reasonable. Shall we report them?


:Hilarious

Most of the people posting on this thread are reasonable and well-balanced. At least 52% of them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Britt said:


> It looks like it's gonna be a no deal Brexit after all.* Do you, folks, really want to leave Europe and have Mrs May as your Prime Minister?*


*No,* I don't want any if them, I just wish we were staying the EU at least we knew where we stood in the world, now we are going to be cast a float with out a paddle after the shipwreck.


----------



## rona

Britt said:


> It looks like it's gonna be a no deal Brexit after all. Do you, folks, really want to leave Europe and have Mrs May as your Prime Minister?


yes because May won't be forever and the EU would have been, had we entangled any further


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Most of the people posting on this thread are reasonable and well-balanced. At least 52% of them.


And the other 48% .................................................


----------



## kimthecat

Britt said:


> It looks like it's gonna be a no deal Brexit after all. Do you, folks, really want to leave Europe and have Mrs May as your Prime Minister?


I havent seen the news yet . So TM wont win enough votes to push her deal through?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> yes because May won't be forever and the EU would have been, had we entangled any further


How do you think this further entanglement would have manifested itself?


----------



## Arnie83

Britt said:


> *It looks like it's gonna be a no deal Brexit after all.* Do you, folks, really want to leave Europe and have Mrs May as your Prime Minister?


It is still a distinct possibility, but only today 209 MPs signed a letter to Theresa May asking her to rule out a No Deal scenario. (Which doesn't mean that only 209 support such a thing.) The Commons is very much against No Deal and May would have to act against their wishes for it to come about. While that might happen, it should not.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I seem to recall it was a ''brand new'' Porsche. I bet he can't pronounce it though! (Maybe he means porchetta?)


 Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it? Don't forget, people like Gary Linekar aren't short of a few Bob!

I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


----------



## Magyarmum

A few articles I've taken at random from today's Euronews which I thought might interest everyone.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/07...s-brexit-contingencies-to-prepare-for-no-deal

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/07...c-jam-of-89-lorries-to-test-no-deal-readiness

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/07/western-european-car-sales-fall-as-trade-brexit-hit-confidence


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is rather childish. Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it. I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


A totally harmless piece of fun, taking the mickey out of someone who's pompous and boastful.

Unlike the accusations leveled at Leavers of being Fascists and Nazi's hell bent on recreating all the atrocities associated with them!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> This is rather childish. Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it. I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


Yes agree with you for a change , He should spend his money on what he likes but he shouldn't be so sneery about jobs he believes to be beneath him .

I have no idea if he is left wing . I wouldnt have thought so . Ive always thought left wingers supported the working class and didn't look down on them.
As much as I dislike Corbyn I'm sure he would never be sneery and I know John MacDonnell isn't .


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it? Don't forget, people like Gary Linekar aren't short of a few Bob!
> 
> I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


He can have a porsche, no need to brag about my money this, my car that when we are talking about Brexit as its totally irrelevant


----------



## Calvine

[QUOTE


KittenKong said:


> Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche


 I didn't say or even imply he should not have one, he can drive whatever he wants, I don't care a fig, _tho' I cannot see why it has to be mentioned in a political thread along with the_ _emphasis ''brand new''._
EG: I have no idea what car you/ Arnie/ SWC/ kimthekat/ Magyarmum and others drive or whether it is a reflection on how they voted. TBH I do not give a monkey's what anyone drives or if they prefer a bicycle. I believe FeeltheBern started a motoring thread where such a post might be considered more appropriate.


----------



## Gemmaa

KittenKong said:


> Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it? Don't forget, people like Gary Linekar aren't short of a few Bob!
> 
> I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


Oh come on, you have to admit that this is probably the most knobbish comment on this entire forum, in its entire history...

"_I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote._"

Just missing a penis measurement


----------



## Calvine

Gemmaa said:


> knobbish


Love this adjective; not heard it for some time!!


----------



## MilleD

Gemmaa said:


> Oh come on, you have to admit that this is probably the most knobbish comment on this entire forum, in its entire history...
> 
> "_I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote._"
> 
> Just missing a penis measurement


Well that hit the nail on the head :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Well that hit the nail on the head


Yes; it has brought a much-needed breath of fresh air into the thread (in my humble opinion.) Hang around, @Gemmaa, and keep them coming girl!!


----------



## Gemmaa

Calvine said:


> Yes; it has brought a much-needed breath of fresh air into the thread (in my humble opinion.) Hang around, @Gemmaa, and keep them coming girl!!


As the driver of a 3 year old Ford Focus, I fear I may not be able to keep up :Nailbiting


----------



## Arnie83

I've mentioned this before when it was mooted, (much to @Elles 's disapproval! ) but it seems to be moving forward with some more detail ...

*Labour backs cross-party amendment to block no-deal Brexit*

Labour is to support a backbench amendment tabled by Yvette Cooper that could force a government shutdown unless a no-deal Brexit is taken off the table. The amendment to the finance bill, tabled over the weekend, is one of the first of a slew of parliamentary tactics expected to be adopted by MPs to try to prevent a no-deal Brexit. Its effect would be to restrict the government's freedom to make Brexit-related tax changes without parliamentary safeguards.

The amendment would be attached to one clause, designed to give the government the power to keep tax law working in the event of a no-deal Brexit. If it is passed, it would mean that clause would only be allowed to come into force if there were either a Brexit deal, a decision to extend article 50, or a vote in the Commons specifically approving a no-deal Brexit.

Should the amendment fail, other bills that could be targeted with amendments include immigration, fisheries and trade.​
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...cross-party-amendment-to-block-no-deal-brexit

Brexit, for me, is bad enough but supporting a No Deal Brexit is to prioritise an entirely personal and anachronistic instinct over the prosperity of a lot of very real people.


----------



## KittenKong

Gemmaa said:


> Oh come on, you have to admit that this is probably the most knobbish comment on this entire forum, in its entire history...
> 
> "_I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote._"
> 
> Just missing a penis measurement


Well, he's not the first to brag is he. There's a certain member here whose heading is, "One of life's winners", which tends to suggest he or she looks down at everyone else as losers in their view. At least that's how I interpreted it.

Having said that, the comment about one's education is a bit of a generalisation although I understand where he's coming from. I had a state education myself and didn't go to university but straight into work on leaving school.

I learned considerably more on leaving school. Think that goes for most of us.


----------



## kimthecat

Gemmaa said:


> Oh come on, you have to admit that this is probably the most knobbish comment on this entire forum, in its entire history...
> 
> "_I voted remain, work a high skilled job and drive a brand new Porsche. The leave voters I know work dead end jobs. Seems to be to be a direct link between education and how people vote._"
> 
> Just missing a penis measurement


:Hilarious Just spat my coffee out over the key board !


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Well, he's not the first to brag is he. There's a certain member here whose heading is, "One of life's winners", which tends to suggest he or she looks down at everyone else as losers in their view. At least that's how I interpreted it.
> 
> Having said that, the comment about one's education is a bit of a generalisation although I understand where he's coming from. I had a state education myself and didn't go to university but straight into work on leaving school.
> 
> I learned considerably more on leaving school. Think that goes for most of us.


Oh come on! If a Leaver said this you'd be incandescent with rage


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Why shouldn't a Remainer not have a Porsche if he or her want one and can afford it? Don't forget, people like Gary Linekar aren't short of a few Bob!
> 
> I get the impression some here believe Remainers are left wing or shouldn't be allowed luxury items!


I voted to remain and we had Mercedes Benz for years


----------



## KittenKong

With Anna Sourbry facing hostility from the far right pro Brexit protestors earlier, this is also shocking.

Are this government really pandering to these idiots by giving them what they want re Brexit?

They still aren't happy.

https://www.facebook.com/987436641337865/posts/2038602382887947/


----------



## cheekyscrip

I see very well why EU is not ideal.

Yet I look at the alternatives - if we get entangled with USA or Russia, much bigger powers we will sorely regret our spot in EU.
Remember for them we are a little country and also EU is weaker. 

That is why Trump and Putin support it so much.

Britain is not an empire, it cannot be self sufficient - or we will end up like North Korea?

Brexit is not voting for something better.
Just a complaint against what we know with no guarantees for any better future sooner or later and stark facts showing what a mess it will be.

EU with UK was a strongerest trading bloc and no wonder others want to break it up.


Why would you help Russians to break up EU????

Brexit only serves Putin.
Read about ties between Bow Group - support for ERG and their ties to Putin.

If you support Brexit, and Putin supports and sponsors Brexit then whom you actually supporting?

EU with UK had a chance, Russia knows it.

Very good chance to iron out their problems and weather the trade offensive from Asia...
Brexit is catastrophic, worst decision since war against America.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Well, he's not the first to brag is he. There's a certain member here whose heading is, "One of life's winners", which tends to suggest he or she looks down at everyone else as losers in their view. At least that's how I interpreted it.
> 
> Having said that, the comment about one's education is a bit of a generalisation although I understand where he's coming from. I had a state education myself and didn't go to university but straight into work on leaving school.
> 
> I learned considerably more on leaving school. Think that goes for most of us.


I knew you didn't really have me on ignore.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I knew you didn't really have me on ignore.


Of course not.
We know you cannot be serious...:Hilarious.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course not.
> We know you cannot be serious...:Hilarious.


How very dare you.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I see very well why EU is not ideal.
> 
> Yet I look at the alternatives - if we get entangled with USA or Russia, much bigger powers we will sorely regret our spot in EU.
> Remember for them we are a little country and also EU is weaker.
> 
> That is why Trump and Putin support it so much.
> 
> Britain is not an empire, it cannot be self sufficient - or we will end up like North Korea?
> 
> Brexit is not voting for something better.
> Just a complaint against what we know with no guarantees for any better future sooner or later and stark facts showing what a mess it will be.
> 
> EU with UK was a strongerest trading bloc and no wonder others want to break it up.
> 
> Why would you help Russians to break up EU????
> 
> Brexit only serves Putin.
> Read about ties between Bow Group - support for ERG and their ties to Putin.
> 
> If you support Brexit, and Putin supports and sponsors Brexit then whom you actually supporting?
> 
> EU with UK had a chance, Russia knows it.
> 
> Very good chance to iron out their problems and weather the trade offensive from Asia...
> Brexit is catastrophic, worst decision since war against America.


The more I hear the ERG type politicians, and see pieces in the Express, Sun, etc. the more I am convinced it is because (their) Britain has been most pride-worthy when it stands alone, and they want that feeling back. Equal status in an association of other countries, in their eyes, diminishes it, and thereby themselves.

I don't want to upset people, but as Sherlock Holmes said, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth. And it certainly isn't for the economic benefits, which I don't think anybody believes in any more.


----------



## Elles

You haven’t eliminated the impossible. Holmes did say impossible, not improbable and you do know that Conan Doyle believed in fairies. But of course you did. Doh, fell right into that one didn’t I.


----------



## rona

Why is everything measured by money. There's far more to life and happiness than the coins in your pocket and your possessions?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Britain is not an empire, it cannot be self sufficient - or we will end up like North Korea?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Why is everything measured by money. There's far more to life and happiness than the coins in your pocket and your possessions?


Absolutely. Freedom. Democracy. Fair treatment. Human rights. Environment protection.
I think helping Putin puts all those values in danger. Globally.
Neither Putin or Trump are great champions of those values.
But they support Brexit.

I think after Brexit we will ape USA a lot.
Not a great role model nowadays.

Russia poured a lot of efforts to campaign for Brexit and Trump.

Rise of Russia is real and it is dangerous.
I lived under that regime and it was scary.

We fought to join EU to be safe. To have human rights, independent trade unions, rights to travel, freedom of speech to name but a few.

Russian moguls sponsor business groups that sponsor ERG.

It is not just about Britain being poorer but about Britain being exploited by those powers - your politicians are already bought!!!

It is not just about Russia or USA - it is about the super rich having more and more power and nation more and more divided between the winners and the poor masses.

This is scary and I really regret that the masses basically push for it.

This is why I despise Corbyn, because he obviously knows where it all leads to.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387282


That makes it look like the EU is like North Korea, or China and doesn't let you go. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> How very dare you.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Why is everything measured by money. There's far more to life and happiness than the coins in your pocket and your possessions?


Tell that to the tories, that's all they think about.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Tell that to the tories, that's all they think about.


Surely ERG will gain and so will their sponsors.

Historically it will be an example how the poor robbed themselves to hand their money to the rich, with a little bit of persuasion on the buses ....
So now Labour is talking about lost jobs?
Now Gove is warning about No Deal Brexit ruining British farming???!
Imagine the deluge of cheap, inferior food from USA... 
That is the new deal we will get from Trump.

Not to mention China...

Our farming, our industry, financial services, universities- all will suffer.
How many of EU citizens in UK will suffer too?
How many expats will be affected?
NI. Gibraltar.

How that will affect the budget?
Guess.

It is not just money. It is livehoods of millions at stake.
Just so narrow group of already privileged can gain.

The story of Pied Piper comes to mind....


----------



## KittenKong

I've received much criticism here from Tory supporters recently.

I am happy to redress the balance with info on a pro Brexit "Socialist" group.

From The Very Brexit Problems Club Facebook page:

Thoughts on the socialist case for Brexit?

It's a pretty fringe area I didn't even realise existed until more recently. I'm left wing for sure, but even to me it's a bit odd. Here's an eye-opening group I stumbled across: https://www.facebook.com/groups/609279582557016/. They hold Remainers with a fair amount of contempt.

I ended up writing this in response to a 'Lexit' supporting guy I know. It didn't get much love, so I might as well put it in here. Any opinions?

...

For me, the socialist case for Brexit is an interesting one. As a left leaning person, I support Labour predominantly - and respect many Green and Lib Dem ideas. I cannot stand the majority of Tory policy. Just to set that out first.

However, the damage to British jobs and industry looming from any form of Brexit should not be ignored in the pursuit of undoing the harm caused by Thatcherism in the 1980s. Corbyn's idealism surrounding Brexit seems to me, in this day and age, to be old fashioned. When the Green Party are now offering the most sensible, progressive left wing ideas, I think it's time for Labour to go back to the drawing board. There is no turning the clock back to the pre-Thatcher era. We have moved on significantly. Labour have already lost much of their working class support. As counterintuitive as it seems, many have moved to Tory or UKIP. That's what's driving Brexit. We are not in the 1970s anymore. Times are very different.

In my understanding, EU membership and hard Conservatism are not inextricably linked. There is room for both EU membership and a Labour government properly funding the NHS, welfare state and supporting the vulnerable. Nothing in EU membership forces austerity upon the country. It's down to the government in power.

Right now, leaving the EU, deal or no deal, will without question hit the poorest first and hardest. Unemployment could soar due to manufacturers upping sticks. The need for frictionless trade will also stop future companies investing in the UK when they can simply get a better deal on the continent. In short Brexit could crush what remaining industry we have. Isn't looking after working class jobs what Labour are supposed to stand for?

Not to mention, at the other end of the spectrum - a loss of EU funding in areas such as science and research could mean people simply move on to greener pastures. The financial sector which is what props up the entire country could be damaged. This is good for no one.

I simply don't understand why withdrawal from the EU is required to remove Tory austerity. I haven't even touched on the other areas of Brexit that are hugely alarming to me. But I'm trying to focus on the point in hand.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Why is everything measured by money. There's far more to life and happiness than the coins in your pocket and your possessions?


Precisely. And that is exactly what has led me to the conclusion in my last post above.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I've received much criticism here from Tory supporters recently.
> 
> I am happy to redress the balance with info on a pro Brexit "Socialist" group.
> 
> From The Very Brexit Problems Club Facebook page:
> 
> Thoughts on the socialist case for Brexit?
> 
> It's a pretty fringe area I didn't even realise existed until more recently. I'm left wing for sure, but even to me it's a bit odd. Here's an eye-opening group I stumbled across: https://www.facebook.com/groups/609279582557016/. They hold Remainers with a fair amount of contempt.
> 
> I ended up writing this in response to a 'Lexit' supporting guy I know. It didn't get much love, so I might as well put it in here. Any opinions?
> 
> ...
> 
> For me, the socialist case for Brexit is an interesting one. As a left leaning person, I support Labour predominantly - and respect many Green and Lib Dem ideas. I cannot stand the majority of Tory policy. Just to set that out first.
> 
> However, the damage to British jobs and industry looming from any form of Brexit should not be ignored in the pursuit of undoing the harm caused by Thatcherism in the 1980s. Corbyn's idealism surrounding Brexit seems to me, in this day and age, to be old fashioned. When the Green Party are now offering the most sensible, progressive left wing ideas, I think it's time for Labour to go back to the drawing board. There is no turning the clock back to the pre-Thatcher era. We have moved on significantly. Labour have already lost much of their working class support. As counterintuitive as it seems, many have moved to Tory or UKIP. That's what's driving Brexit. We are not in the 1970s anymore. Times are very different.
> 
> In my understanding, EU membership and hard Conservatism are not inextricably linked. There is room for both EU membership and a Labour government properly funding the NHS, welfare state and supporting the vulnerable. Nothing in EU membership forces austerity upon the country. It's down to the government in power.
> 
> Right now, leaving the EU, deal or no deal, will without question hit the poorest first and hardest. Unemployment could soar due to manufacturers upping sticks. The need for frictionless trade will also stop future companies investing in the UK when they can simply get a better deal on the continent. In short Brexit could crush what remaining industry we have. Isn't looking after working class jobs what Labour are supposed to stand for?
> 
> Not to mention, at the other end of the spectrum - a loss of EU funding in areas such as science and research could mean people simply move on to greener pastures. The financial sector which is what props up the entire country could be damaged. This is good for no one.
> 
> I simply don't understand why withdrawal from the EU is required to remove Tory austerity. I haven't even touched on the other areas of Brexit that are hugely alarming to me. But I'm trying to focus on the point in hand.


I have read it and it sounds Bolshevik , scary. 
Talking about austerity- if you ever lived in socialism....
Neither extreme is good, but to push for Brexit to get in power ?
Knowing how devastating for the very people it will be?
Industry, farming, universities, research, financial services.
All those bring income to budget.

Can anyone from Leave camp say it is not going to happen?

In financial services already is. I see it daily.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387282


Another post intended to create a false impression - i.e that in some way Britain failed by giving these countries their independence.

To put it into context. Since WW11

15 countries have gained independence from the Soviet Union.

17 countries have gained independence from France

https://www.france24.com/en/20100214-1960-year-independence

Most importantly, what the post has conveniently forgotten is that all the countries that gained independence from the UK are now part of the Commonwealth which none of them joined by being coerced!

http://thecommonwealth.org/member-countries


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Another post intended to create a false impression - i.e that in some way Britain failed by giving these countries their independence.
> 
> To put it into context. Since WW11
> 
> 15 countries have gained independence from the Soviet Union.
> 
> 17 countries have gained independence from France
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/20100214-1960-year-independence
> 
> Most importantly, what the post has conveniently forgotten is that all the countries that gained independence from the UK are now part of the Commonwealth which none of them joined by being coerced!
> 
> http://thecommonwealth.org/member-countries


The impression I get is many Brexiters see the re-emergence of the British Empire post Brexit, or they're confused the Commonwealth is actually the Empire.

The truth is and I hope Scotland will become the 52nd member to seek independence over the next few years.

It's ironic that EU membership has contributed towards the preservation on the UK, an argument against Scottish independence being extraction from the EU in 2014. Back then, no one would've thought Scotland would be forced out of the EU against its wishes a few years later.

I wish Scotland every luck in their quest for independence and fast tracked into becoming an EU member in its own right


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The truth is and I hope Scotland will become the 52nd member to seek independence over the next few years.


Why?


----------



## Magyarmum

Kitten Kong said ....

"The truth is and I hope Scotland will become the 52nd member to seek independence over the next few years".

I think you're going to be out of luck if the latest poll is anything to go by.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...n-in-new-scottish-independence-vote-1-4832164

I know for certain my DIL who's a Scot, and her family who live in Edinburgh are definitely not in favour of independence


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Why?


There's a tiny bit of me that wants Scotland to leave as well, but I recognise that it is only schadenfreude so my better nature suppresses it!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> There's a tiny bit of me that wants Scotland to leave as well, but I recognise that it is only schadenfreude so my better nature suppresses it!


I would normally support maintaining the UK as I did in 2014, but with Brexit that's an entirely different matter.

If England and Wales voted for self destruction, they shouldn't be allowed to take the remain voting parts of the UK with them.


----------



## kimthecat

Disgraceful what happened to anna soubry . MPs and journalists need more protection . 
Dreadful threats made to MPs . Threats of rape and murder. 
A while back a gang left wingers were shouting at Lord Snootys young son as they were getting out of their car . That's disgusting .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> There's a tiny bit of me that wants Scotland to leave as well, but I recognise that it is only schadenfreude so my better nature suppresses it!


 They should be allowed to have another referendum as they did not definitely know there would be an EU referendum coming .

If they did we'd have to have another border , perhaps rebuild Hadrians wall .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I would normally support maintaining the UK as I did in 2014, but with Brexit that's an entirely different matter.
> 
> If England and Wales voted for self destruction, they shouldn't be allowed to take the remain voting parts of the UK with them.


So if they left the UK ,is there a guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU ?

I don't know how it would work with a border or how how much they would lose from the rest of the UK . .


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387342
> View attachment 387343


Aren't they slightly different scenarios? Thought you were going to go on about fighting migrants on the beaches of kent and dover


----------



## Elles

I detest people like those. Fat, greedy, ugly, outside and in. You’d think they’d want to stay in the Eu and take it over, but they’re too stupid.

Thankfully there aren’t very many of them.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387342
> View attachment 387343


Again ? You've already covered this and you had replies. Yes , they're out of order !
Unless things have changed , The salute and the hand under the nose is taking the piss out of Hitler , its accusing another person of being like Hitler ,
We used to do this as kids , especially at bossy people .
They may well do a proper Nazi salute to each other in private ,I don't know but they are not doing it in a serious manner here .
Dont you remember John Cleese on Fawlty Towers and the Germans episode ?


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> So if they left the UK , is there a guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU ?
> 
> I don't know how it would work with a border or how how much they would lose from the rest of the UK . .


I see KK hasnt answered this , perhaps someone else could ask him in case I.m on ignore ?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I detest people like those. Fat, greedy, ugly, outside and in. You'd think they'd want to stay in the Eu and take it over, but they're too stupid.
> 
> Thankfully there aren't very many of them.


 Thousands and thousands brave souls fought on the beaches and these idiots are few .


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @noushka05 Your link isn't to a car manufacturer and is talking about 'no deal'. It's unrelated to my post.
> 
> Others have linked manufacturers saying that their decisions have had nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> If we leave with no deal the future will quite likely be different, but as I also said I can't predict the future, but motoring as it is today is unsustainable nonetheless.


Ehh? Thats a link to the SMMT - they represent the industry. Members on here actually support no deal!:Wtf

From June 2018

*UK automotive industry urges rethink on Brexit red lines as uncertainty bites*

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2018/06/uk-a...ink-on-brexit-red-lines-as-uncertainty-bites/

Today's figures show the critical importance of the automotive industry to the UK economy. There is growing frustration in global boardrooms at the slow pace of negotiations. The current position, with conflicting messages and red lines goes directly against the interests of the UK automotive sector which has thrived on single market and customs union membership. There is no credible 'plan B' for frictionless customs arrangements, nor is it realistic to expect that new trade deals can be agreed with the rest of the world that will replicate the immense value of trade with the EU. Government must rethink its position on the customs union.

There is no Brexit dividend for our industry, particularly in what is an increasingly hostile and protectionist global trading environment. Our message to government is that until it can demonstrate exactly how a new model for customs and trade with the EU can replicate the benefits we currently enjoy, don't change i



kimthecat said:


> . *Ive always thought left wingers supported the* *working class* and didn't look down on them.
> As much as I dislike Corbyn I'm sure he would never be sneery and I know John MacDonnell isn't .


They do.



rona said:


> Why is everything measured by money. There's far more to life and happiness than the coins in your pocket and your possessions?


Tell that to the party you support.



rona said:


> Why?


Unlike our increasingly insular little country, Scotland is progressive & welcoming - why should they be dragged out when they voted to remain?



kimthecat said:


> Disgraceful what happened to anna soubry . MPs and journalists need more protection .
> Dreadful threats made to MPs . Threats of rape and murder.
> A while back a gang left wingers were shouting at Lord Snootys young son as they were getting out of their car . That's disgusting .


It is disgusting. What is happening to our country The far right have been emboldened.






Are you talking about the Ian Bone incident when you say left wingers shouting at lord snootys son? https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ees-mogg-and-his-family-harassed-by-activists.

If so then Bone is class war anarchist.

This is him. I don't think he likes leftys either.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/913387036991787013
F*** LABOUR! F*** CORBYN! WE ARE CLASS WAR! RED AND BLACK OKTOBER IS COMING TEN DAYS THT WILL SHAKE LONDON WE SALUTE THE HEROIC RUSSIANS


----------



## stuaz

Scotland would be foolish to split from the rest of UK when it trades so much with it. I mean what kind of country in its right mind wants to make trading with its closest neighbors harder and more costly..... oh wait.....


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Thousands and thousands brave souls fought on the beaches and these idiots are few .


Well all I have to say is ......


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Disgraceful what happened to anna soubry . MPs and journalists need more protection .
> Dreadful threats made to MPs . Threats of rape and murder.
> A while back a gang left wingers were shouting at Lord Snootys young son as they were getting out of their car . That's disgusting .


Why just politicians?

Farmers and country sports people face this day in day out and it's getting ever more violent with the rise of the militant vegans


----------



## noushka05

:Hilarious

*Jim Pickard*‏ @PickardJE 15h15 hours ago
and here it is: The key point is that extra checks of up to 40 seconds per truck don't result in extra queues. 
But above that there would be an exponential spike on delays: With checks of 70 seconds per truck there would be..*..queues of SIX DAYS*

https://www.ft.com/content/d05498f6-1299-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## kimthecat

Now thats what I call a riot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/apr/01/g20-summit-protests

Talk about the thin blue line


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> Scotland would be foolish to split from the rest of UK when it trades so much with it. I mean what kind of country in its right mind wants to make trading with its closest neighbors harder and more costly..... oh wait.....


Touche!


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> Scotland would be foolish to split from the rest of UK when it trades so much with it. I mean what kind of country in its right mind wants to make trading with its closest neighbors harder and more costly..... oh wait.....


Do you think the EU would accept Scotland into the EU ?

ETA you forgot the They cant vote in our parliament so cant influence us.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Why just politicians?
> 
> Farmers and country sports people face this day in day out and* it's getting ever more violent with the* *rise of the militant vegans*


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I see KK hasnt answered this , perhaps someone else could ask him in case I.m on ignore ?


This may be useful ...

Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Chief Brexit Negotiator:

If Scotland decides to leave the UK and become an independent state and they decide to be part of the EU, I think there is no big obstacle to do that.​
Recently Spain's Foreign Minister, who were thought to be a barrier to Scottish membership because of Catalonia, said

Why not, if they leave Britain in accordance with their internal regulations? If Westminster agrees, we are not going to be more papist than the pope.​
So it looks like there is no big problem with re-joining, though I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just remain members without a break (though that depends on a lot of things). What happens with the border would be a very interesting question!


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> If they did we'd have to have another border , perhaps rebuild Hadrians wall .


Not til after my hols


----------



## noushka05

This is what brexit has unleashed. My god.

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 20h20 hours ago

Threatening police with "war" and saying they're "fair game" and then to top it off telling a BAME police officer he's "not even British". A disgrace. Astonished he wasn't arrested on the spot.

_Here's footage of Far Right 'Yellow Vest' leader James Goddard telling people (police?) they're 'fair game' and threatening 'war'. When is enough going to be enough? When someone's hurt? Killed?_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1082304571580534786


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> _ When is enough going to be enough? When someone's hurt? Killed? _


Sadly we have already reached that point.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> This may be useful ...
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt European Parliament Chief Brexit Negotiator:
> 
> If Scotland decides to leave the UK and become an independent state and they decide to be part of the EU, I think there is no big obstacle to do that.​
> Recently Spain's Foreign Minister, who were thought to be a barrier to Scottish membership because of Catalonia, said
> 
> Why not, if they leave Britain in accordance with their internal regulations? If Westminster agrees, we are not going to be more papist than the pope.​
> So it looks like there is no big problem with re-joining, though I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just remain members without a break (though that depends on a lot of things). What happens with the border would be a very interesting question!


Thanks , good, would be awful if they left and then couldn't join the EU.

I was thinking about whether they meet the financial criteria to join the EU .


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 Its still unrelated to my post. Actual manufacturers who have laid people off, or moved their operations are on record as saying it had nothing to do with Brexit. Someone posting on here said it is because of Brexit, hence I asked 'are these manufacturers lying?'.

Your link to a group who represent the motor industry, warning that a no deal brexit could create difficulties in the future, is totally unrelated.

Motoring as it is today is unsustainable and electric cars aren't the answer either. I would expect people working in the motor industry will look into alternatives and that the young will very carefully consider other options. Automation/robotics reduced the workforce and will mean further reductions. It's a changing world.

https://moneyinc.com/10-auto-industry-jobs-will-die-due-automation/


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> This is what brexit has unleashed. My god.
> 
> *David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 20h20 hours ago
> 
> Threatening police with "war" and saying they're "fair game" and then to top it off telling a BAME police officer he's "not even British". A disgrace. Astonished he wasn't arrested on the spot.
> 
> _Here's footage of Far Right 'Yellow Vest' leader James Goddard telling people (police?) they're 'fair game' and threatening 'war'. When is enough going to be enough? When someone's hurt? Killed?_
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1082304571580534786


Brexit didn't unleash anything. People like these and thankfully there are very few, have behaved like this for donkey's years. There are small groups of extremists of different kinds who threaten violence, or get involved in it. They need arresting. Unfortunately their supporters view them as martyrs if they are arrested, look at the Tommy Robinson fiasco (and various other groups who have held up arrest as some kind of badge of honour), so the police need to careful not to appear to be provoked.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Sadly we have already reached that point.


Yes we have . The foiled plot to kill Corbyn & Khan. I really do fear this isn't the end.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexit didn't unleash anything. People like these and thankfully there are very few, have behaved like this for donkey's years. There are small groups of extremists of different kinds who threaten violence, or get involved in it. They need arresting. Unfortunately their supporters view them as martyrs if they are arrested, look at the Tommy Robinson fiasco (and various other groups who have held up arrest as some kind of badge of honour), so the police need to careful not to appear to be provoked.


Of course it did. Exactly as Trump has in the USA. They are a tiny minority but they have been emboldened by the toxic leave campaign, the right wing gutter press & racist MPs.

David Schneider:

"You ain't even f******* British!"

You own this, Boris Johnson, Farage, Vote Leave, the tabloids, with your lies about immigration. You own this, Cameron and May with your Go Home vans and scapegoating migrants. You fanned these flames for your own gain.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Elles

Really?


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @noushka05 Its still unrelated to my post. Actual manufacturers who have laid people off, or moved their operations are on record as saying it had nothing to do with Brexit. Someone posting on here said it is because of Brexit, hence I asked 'are these manufacturers lying?'.
> 
> Your link to a group who represent the motor industry, warning that a no deal brexit could create difficulties in the future, is totally unrelated.
> 
> Motoring as it is today is unsustainable and electric cars aren't the answer either. I would expect people working in the motor industry will look into alternatives and that the young will very carefully consider other options. Automation/robotics reduced the workforce and will mean further reductions. It's a changing world.
> 
> https://moneyinc.com/10-auto-industry-jobs-will-die-due-automation/


Elles, the motor industry depends on 'just in time' supply chains. This will have a terrible impact on the manufacturing industry as a whole. This is just reality of leaving the SM/CU The steel recycling firm my hubby works for will be finished .

The whole world must be splitting their sides laughing at us though

Tom Brake MP_: The live trial of a traffic jam in Dover must be the most pointless posturing by the Govt yet. How must this look to the rest of the world, that the UK is willing to choose this over Customs Union membership? Hope Govt come clean on how much this charade cost the taxpayer too!_


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting Jo Cox of course.


When I said 'yes we have'. Its Jo I was thinking about KK x


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Of course it did. Exactly as Trump has in the USA. They are a tiny minority but they have been emboldened by the toxic leave campaign, the right-wing gutter press & racist MPs.
> 
> David Schneider:
> 
> "You ain't even f******* British!"
> 
> You own this, Boris Johnson, Farage, Vote Leave, the tabloids, with your lies about immigration. You own this, Cameron and May with your Go Home vans and scapegoating migrants. You fanned these flames for your own gain.
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Absolutely.

I couldn't help thinking of the hypocrisy of Amber Rudd when, as HS she banned a neo Nazi group, when her own party policies contributed towards fuelling such groups in the first place.

Likewise when Farage and Nuttall protested against Yaxley-Lennon's involvement with UKIP, but I think that's more to do with Y-L stealing the limelight from them.

But I've always believed by preaching xenophobia, there's always someone worse that takes over...


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Elles, the motor industry depends on 'just in time' supply chains. This will have a terrible impact on the manufacturing industry as a whole. This is just reality of leaving the SM/CU The steel recycling firm my hubby works for will be finished .
> 
> The whole world must be splitting their sides laughing at us though
> 
> Tom Brake MP_: The live trial of a traffic jam in Dover must be the most pointless posturing by the Govt yet. How must this look to the rest of the world, that the UK is willing to choose this over Customs Union membership? Hope Govt come clean on how much this charade cost the taxpayer too!_


I don't disagree. I don't disagree that a no deal brexit will cause difficulties for many industries.

Although of course the idea that the whole world is splitting its sides is a ridiculous one and telling me my post is wrong by quoting and linking to unrelated articles is just plain annoying and I'd rather you didn't do it.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Of course it did. Exactly as Trump has in the USA. They are a tiny minority but they have been emboldened by the toxic leave campaign, the right wing gutter press & racist MPs.
> 
> David Schneider:
> 
> "You ain't even f******* British!"
> 
> You own this, Boris Johnson, Farage, Vote Leave, the tabloids, with your lies about immigration. You own this, Cameron and May with your Go Home vans and scapegoating migrants. You fanned these flames for your own gain.
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I hardly think the Gilet Jaune gave Brexit much thought!

https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/03...e-shows-police-being-attacked-during-protests

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ted-french-police-gilets-jaunes-protest-paris


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> Do you think the EU would accept Scotland into the EU ?
> 
> ETA you forgot the They cant vote in our parliament so cant influence us.


I think the EU would, but they would have to accept the Euro (Which I think they didn't want to) and it wouldn't be instant, they would have to apply like any other country. They would have to spend sometime "alone" not connected to the UK or EU I suspect.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't disagree. I don't disagree that a no deal brexit will cause difficulties for many industries.
> 
> Although of course the idea that the whole world is splitting its sides is a ridiculous one and telling me my post is wrong by quoting and linking to unrelated articles is just plain annoying and I'd rather you didn't do it.


It will destroy manufacturing in this country.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> When I said 'yes we have'. Its Jo I was thinking about KK x


Yes indeed. Apologies, I didn't initially see that.

Should've gone to Specsavers.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I hardly think the Gilet Jaune gave Brexit much thought!
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/03...e-shows-police-being-attacked-during-protests
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ted-french-police-gilets-jaunes-protest-paris


Brexit has fuelled the far right here, so not sure what your point is besides another attempt to play down the damage brexit is doing to our country.


----------



## noushka05

The tories will destroy this country for their own selfish aims.......

*Jonathan Lis*‏ @jonlis1 5h5 hours ago
This from @Peston is devastating. What is happening in British politics right now is not just a historical scandal - it is literally unbelievable


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> There are small groups of extremists of different kinds who threaten violence, or get involved in it.


If you looked at their faces, most seemed to be actually enjoying intimidating someone, that's not true raw feelings, it's stupid aggressive men. All that I saw were men, no women


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> If you looked at their faces, most seemed to be actually enjoying intimidating someone, that's not true raw feelings, it's stupid aggressive men. All that I saw were men, no women


Yes , they remind me of the boot boys in the 70's. They were racist and homophobic but that didn't stop them bashing up anyone else. 

Hate crimes are horrible and wrong but so is any bullying or victimisation , you're just as frightened no matter what the reason . You can be attacked for wearing glasses and called four eyes or attacked for being a red head and called ginger minger. 
These b*stards will always find someone to bully and intimidate .


----------



## noushka05

shite storm of a government:Hilarious Holly's face:Hilarious

Martin Clunes: "*Thank* *God we've got a police force but we won't have if this current shite storm of a Government have their way"





*


----------



## noushka05

I LOVE Sue Perkins !

*Sue Perkins*‏Verified account @sueperkins 21h21 hours ago
Sue Perkins Retweeted LBC

I'd like to know how much he stands to make, personally, from a hard Brexit. Thanks.

...
*LBC*‏Verified account @LBC
J*acob Rees-Mogg is live on LBC taking your calls - what do you want to ask the chair of the ERG? *#RingReesMogg

........................................................


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏.
A 'no deal' #Brexit would be catastrophic but, like a rabbit caught in the headlights, Theresa May refuses to rule it out. So I am supporting two cross-party amendments to the Finance Bill, tabled by @ChrisLeslieMP and @YvetteCooperMP, that would allow MPs to #TakeBackControl


----------



## Arnie83

stuaz said:


> I think the EU would, but they would have to accept the Euro (Which I think they didn't want to) and it wouldn't be instant, they would have to apply like any other country. They would have to spend sometime "alone" not connected to the UK or EU I suspect.


I think that's quite likely, though it would be common sense, should the UK enjoy a transition period, to try to coordinate the UK leaving with Scotland 'joining', or more likely remaining a member of the single market and customs union (as was mooted for NI) until everything was sorted. Very speculative of me, though, and dependent on lots of things; and, anyway, since when did common sense come into any of this!?


----------



## Elles

I would agree that one person, or small group of persons should not have the power to force an avoidable and ill considered no deal brexit, which is what no deal would be currently. 

Originally the idea was put forward as holding the country to ransom to prevent Brexit. I approve of this addendum, which isn’t doing that at all, but rather giving democracy a voice imho.


----------



## noushka05

*RemainerNow :
WATCH:* Nick here voted leave, it was sort of out of nostalgia, but yesterday he told @BathforEurope why he changed his mind and is a #RemainerNow.

As you will see he is mainly concerned about the negative economic ramifications of #brexit and he wants a #PeoplesVote.

Respect!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1082027973501505539
...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
*People's Vote UK*‏:
*WATCH:* Former Tory party chairman Chris Patten becomes the latest Conservative to back a #PeoplesVote, arguing that a referendum 'may be the only and the best way for Britain to avoid an act of self-harm."

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk

............................................................................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> If you looked at their faces, most seemed to be actually enjoying intimidating someone, that's not true raw feelings, it's stupid aggressive men. All that I saw were men, no women





kimthecat said:


> Yes , they remind me of the boot boys in the 70's. They were racist and homophobic but that didn't stop them bashing up anyone else.


Here I go again; sorry!

To quote Michael Wilson, an anthropologist from the University of Minnesota specialising in chimpanzee behaviour:

"If a group of males encounters a lone chimpanzee from another community, it can get ugly. They will chase the loner down, pin him, and beat him viciously."​
We haven't moved far away from our closest relatives. It is the males who are the most aggressive, the most territorial; the most tribal.

Boot boys, football hooligans, inner city gangs, white supremacists, etc etc. They just have thinner hair than the chimps!

Once the opposing tribe has been identified they are targeted by morons like this, who enjoy the camaraderie of their own tribal association while they do so.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Rona in that I think it absolutely is raw feelings, in which they revel.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Here I go again; sorry!
> 
> "If a group of males encounters a lone chimpanzee from another community, it can get ugly. They will chase the loner down, pin him, and beat him viciously."
> 
> We haven't moved far away from our closest relatives. It is the males who are the most aggressive, the most territorial; the most tribal.
> 
> .


 That's ok , it's relevent , 

Um . I'm not so sure. If there were no men then women would be that way .
My secondary school was an all girls one, so believe me I know , not just hair pulling and scratching but punching and kicking .


----------



## noushka05

*James Felton*‏: Episode 439 of Sunlit Uplands:


----------



## Arnie83

Ramsgate a couple of days ago, and now at the other end of the mooted Seaborne Boatless Ferry Route ...

*The mayor of Ostend has told the BBC the Belgian port will not be ready for a new ferry line in time for Brexit.*

He said it was "impossible" that Ostend would be ready and that he was going to Ramsgate next week to discuss the situation with "all the stakeholders".

His remarks came as Transport Secretary Chris Grayling again defended the deal.​
Failing Grayling surprising absolutely no-one.


----------



## Elles

Should Remainers really focus on worse case scenario in the event of no deal? It's a shift towards implying support for brexit, just a different brexit from no deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/11/remainers-voters-brexiters

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/facts-may-have-changed-brexit-peoples-minds-have-not

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...vince-ourselves-the-eu-referendum-was-stolen/

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote

I see people who want to stay in the Eu falling into the traps the experts are asking them not to, evenmoreso on here.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Ramsgate a couple of days ago, and now at the other end of the mooted Seaborne Boatless Ferry Route ...
> 
> *The mayor of Ostend has told the BBC the Belgian port will not be ready for a new ferry line in time for Brexit.*
> 
> He said it was "impossible" that Ostend would be ready and that he was going to Ramsgate next week to discuss the situation with "all the stakeholders".
> 
> His remarks came as Transport Secretary Chris Grayling again defended the deal.​
> Failing Grayling surprising absolutely no-one.


People and most of the media are so busy laughing and sneering at 'no boats ferry company' they had completely missed the background of the guys running it, as I pointed out the other day, saying it's worse than it looks.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/ferry-boss-comes-under-scrutiny-196407/

It seems the Guardian have at last got hold of the stories.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-firm-who-are-the-old-sea-dogs-behind-venture

Grayling may lose his job over it.


----------



## noushka05

Important thread about how our democracy was stolen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. https://twitter.com/RobertCPalmer13

Before 'Brexit: the uncivil war' being aired tonight (7/1/19) on @Channel4, this thread explains how the overspend & collusion between Vote Leave & BeLeave illegally changed the ref result over the last few days of the campaign.

This is based on expert advice to the court by Prof Phil Howard & relies on sources with first-hand knowledge of the events, Dominic Cummings' website & evidence given to the DCMS Select Committee (inc. evidence given by Facebook).

This information is beyond dispute.

Leave won by 1,269,501 votes. A swing of 634,751 ppl would've reversed the result. Standard industry modelling predicts that 800K voters were converted/persuaded by Leave overspending during the crucial period, when Remain had stopped spending (after reaching their cap).

Over 80m FB users saw the Vote Leave campaign's ads on social media during the period of excess spending. It is estimated that over 8m ppl (10%) were directed to Leave campaign content that sensitive moment. The overspend was 10% (and doesn't include Beleave's figures).

Vote Leave & BeLeave, would've reached together have 10s of millions of ppl over the last few days of the campaign via their digital advertising that was purchased with money above the allowed cap.

The evidence shows the overspend materially effected the ref result, but it gets worse:

These findings are based solely on FB data. Other strategies would've reached additional voters.

The cost of FB advertising decreased on the day of the ref, when Remain had stopped.

FB's polling day reduction, saw Vote Leave's excessive spending produce substantially more 'reach' amongst the targeted 'persuadables' from Cummings 'core audience' identified via FB data.

Remain stopped its digital ads that day cuz it had reached its statutory spending cap

As bad as this all looks, in reality it's much worse cuz this expert evidence only had to rely on 1 of the corrupt campaigns to demonstrate that their illegal activities stole our democracy away from us; the aftermath has turned the UK into little more than a Banana Republic.

Ironically, this evidence is not necessary as the case law is clear concerning not having to prove the effects of 'corrupt & illegal practices' (RPA 1983). Evidence of effect is both irrelevant & not required (see Rahman [33]).

The ref should simply be voided.

I should probably add (as it would've in any other election in British history) that the ref can't voided, because of a legal absurdity. In law, the ref has no legal status (advisory). *Instead we're stuck with being a Banana Republic, where our democracy has been bought*


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> People and most of the media are so busy laughing and sneering at 'no boats ferry company' they had completely missed the background of the guys running it, as I pointed out the other day, saying it's worse than it looks.
> 
> https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/ferry-boss-comes-under-scrutiny-196407/
> 
> It seems the Guardian have at last got hold of the stories.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-firm-who-are-the-old-sea-dogs-behind-venture
> 
> Grayling may lose his job over it.


I'm aware of their backgrounds. But the fact is that as of now they haven't got any boats, haven't run the business they've been engaged to run, and the ports at either end of the route won't be ready when the fan is impacted, should that happen!


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> That's ok , it's relevent ,
> 
> Um . I'm not so sure. If there were no men then women would be that way .
> My secondary school was an all girls one, so believe me I know , not just hair pulling and scratching but punching and kicking .


I went to a grammar school and had to walk past a local secondary modern, the girls would wait for us to be walking past then run out in gangs and beat us with their wooden scholls which were popular back in the day with girls who didn't have to wear uniforms like we did. Girls can be just as nasty.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm aware of their backgrounds. But the fact is that as of now they haven't got any boats, haven't run the business they've been engaged to run, and the ports at either end of the route won't be ready when the fan is impacted, should that happen!


They have run the business of ferries, that's the point. It's worse than if they hadn't. They have. Unsuccessfully.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Important thread about how our democracy was stolen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. https://twitter.com/RobertCPalmer13
> 
> Before 'Brexit: the uncivil war' being aired tonight (7/1/19) on @Channel4, this thread explains how the overspend & collusion between Vote Leave & BeLeave illegally changed the ref result over the last few days of the campaign.
> 
> This is based on expert advice to the court by Prof Phil Howard & relies on sources with first-hand knowledge of the events, Dominic Cummings' website & evidence given to the DCMS Select Committee (inc. evidence given by Facebook).
> 
> This information is beyond dispute.
> 
> Leave won by 1,269,501 votes. A swing of 634,751 ppl would've reversed the result. Standard industry modelling predicts that 800K voters were converted/persuaded by Leave overspending during the crucial period, when Remain had stopped spending (after reaching their cap).
> 
> Over 80m FB users saw the Vote Leave campaign's ads on social media during the period of excess spending. It is estimated that over 8m ppl (10%) were directed to Leave campaign content that sensitive moment. The overspend was 10% (and doesn't include Beleave's figures).
> 
> Vote Leave & BeLeave, would've reached together have 10s of millions of ppl over the last few days of the campaign via their digital advertising that was purchased with money above the allowed cap.
> 
> The evidence shows the overspend materially effected the ref result, but it gets worse:
> 
> These findings are based solely on FB data. Other strategies would've reached additional voters.
> 
> The cost of FB advertising decreased on the day of the ref, when Remain had stopped.
> 
> FB's polling day reduction, saw Vote Leave's excessive spending produce substantially more 'reach' amongst the targeted 'persuadables' from Cummings 'core audience' identified via FB data.
> 
> Remain stopped its digital ads that day cuz it had reached its statutory spending cap
> 
> As bad as this all looks, in reality it's much worse cuz this expert evidence only had to rely on 1 of the corrupt campaigns to demonstrate that their illegal activities stole our democracy away from us; the aftermath has turned the UK into little more than a Banana Republic.
> 
> Ironically, this evidence is not necessary as the case law is clear concerning not having to prove the effects of 'corrupt & illegal practices' (RPA 1983). Evidence of effect is both irrelevant & not required (see Rahman [33]).
> 
> The ref should simply be voided.
> 
> I should probably add (as it would've in any other election in British history) that the ref can't voided, because of a legal absurdity. In law, the ref has no legal status (advisory). *Instead we're stuck with being a Banana Republic, where our democracy has been bought*


I'll link this again.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...vince-ourselves-the-eu-referendum-was-stolen/


----------



## noushka05

HAHAA

So the Germans do have a sense of humour





















Elles said:


> I'll link this again.
> 
> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...vince-ourselves-the-eu-referendum-was-stolen/


Elles leave won by cheating - that is a FACT.

.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Elles leave won by cheating - that is a FACT.


I do agree with you, but right now it really couldn't matter less.

Hopefully, if a referendum is called to pass judgement on May's Deal, people will be reminded of it.


----------



## Elles

Did you actually read what I linked? Capital letters don’t make something more important.

The cheating they say that won the referendum was on Facebook and Twitter.

Out of 18 - 30 year olds and 60 - 80 year olds, who do you think is most likely to have seen adverts on Facebook and Twitter? Of these groups who is it said voted to leave? 

So even if they did cheat, it doesn’t actually matter and it’s unlikely it actually caused the win and going on about it is not likely to persuade anyone to either change their vote, or back a second referendum. What is more important to you, raging about what you think happened over two years ago, or making a difference today?


----------



## cheekyscrip

It goes like this: May Deal? We don’t want it!
It is worse than Remain!
Then No Deal!!!
No! This is even worse than May Deal!
Then maybe then you should Remain?

Oh. No! People want Brexit! Democracy! Referendum!

But maybe people realised that May Deal is worse than Remain? And No Deal is worse than May Deal?
Maybe people should have a vote?

No, no more referendum, people should not be allowed to have referendum, they proved already they should not have been allowed to vote on something that no one knows what it means .

Except that Brexit means Brexit.

That was enough for people to know.

Now stockpile medicines, water and build more parkings. Bring on queues and rationing.

We survived WWII (or our grandparents) we will survive our self made disaster.

Because we voted for Brexit to do away with Tories austerity.

Real life mimics Monthy Phyton??!


----------



## Elles

Ok, so if you want to bring about change, do you agree with this link?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Ok, so if you want to bring about change, do you agree with this link?
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote


 Very cunning ... 
I suspect this is what you were doing all along....


----------



## Magyarmum

January 7, 2019
*Even without a deal, our answer still remains the same: Leave*
















Written by
Simon Boyd

Simon Boyd is Managing Director of REIDSteel and a member of the CBI Manufacturing Council. He was regional chairman of Business for Britain South West.

SHARE

  
The clock is ticking; in the coming days, Theresa May's ill-fated Withdrawal Agreement is due to return to Parliament.

After emphatic protestations in the House about their democratic right to vote on the proposals, MPs will finally have the chance to have their say.

Yet many of these same politicians are singularly intent on trying to stop what the British people themselves voted for: to Leave the EU.

Some of these politicians would:


vote for a deal that would actually be worse than remaining in the EU (the current proposal)
vote for the current deal with modifications to the Irish backstop
vote for another referendum in which they would promote Remain
Support for any of these would be a complete affront to our democracy and a betrayal of the British people.

It is patently obvious that these politicians have never accepted the result of asking us - the people - what we wanted.

Let me remind them: we voted to Leave the EU. We did not vote for a deal or a variation of a deal. We voted to Leave, and we want them - the politicians - to get on with it.

While a good trading relationship with the EU is desirable, it does not change the question, nor the answer we gave in June 2016.

Even without a deal, the answer still remains the same: Leave.

To accept a deal that resolves a problem so manifestly created by the elite and the EU - the Irish backstop - would not make it any more acceptable as we would still be joined to the EU. We want to Leave.

We have the patronising voices of Remainers, the political elite, those with vested interests and the CBI telling us that we did not know what we voted for.

We have even been branded 'extremists' by our own Chancellor of the Exchequer for demanding the people's instructions be carried out to the letter.

We are now on Project Fear II - The Sequel, and it is no better than the first version. We voted Leave then and we still want to Leave now.

We have had the threat of the break-up of our country hurled at us and we have had to watch the humiliation of our Prime Minister before the unelected bureaucrats of the European Union.

We have seen the resurrection of failed politicians, many of whom enjoy the benefits of a generous EU pension for selling our country out.

Those who have had their time should stop now as they only sow the seeds of division and further damage our country.

How much more pointless pain and embarrassment will our political classes put us through before they carry out our wishes?

It must be clear by now that we will never accept the break-up of our union. Nor can we accept any more scandalous treatment of our leader when she is disrespected and humiliated at the hands of the EU, despite the fact that she herself is on the wrong side of history.

In the word of Mrs May: 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - and there is now a clear consensus that what is before us is a 'bad deal'.

We accept now that a no-deal scenario would cause some disruption in the short term.

We accept now that our economy would be impacted by any friction at the borders, and we still want to Leave.

We want to take back control. We want to be able to set our own rules in the interests of Britain's businesses and its people.

We want to have appropriate border controls and we want them to be fair to all.

We want to have our British Standards and regulatory control back. We want our politicians to spend our money on our needs. We want all this because we know we can make a success of it. The benefits of a clean Brexit will produce a boost to our economy.

We want to leave and, actually, a no-deal Brexit will be fine; so get on with it and stop selling us, the British people, out.

​


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> January 7, 2019
> *Even without a deal, our answer still remains the same: Leave*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Written by
> Simon Boyd
> 
> Simon Boyd is Managing Director of REIDSteel and a member of the CBI Manufacturing Council. He was regional chairman of Business for Britain South West.
> 
> SHARE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The clock is ticking; in the coming days, Theresa May's ill-fated Withdrawal Agreement is due to return to Parliament.
> 
> After emphatic protestations in the House about their democratic right to vote on the proposals, MPs will finally have the chance to have their say.
> 
> Yet many of these same politicians are singularly intent on trying to stop what the British people themselves voted for: to Leave the EU.
> 
> Some of these politicians would:
> 
> 
> vote for a deal that would actually be worse than remaining in the EU (the current proposal)
> vote for the current deal with modifications to the Irish backstop
> vote for another referendum in which they would promote Remain
> Support for any of these would be a complete affront to our democracy and a betrayal of the British people.
> 
> It is patently obvious that these politicians have never accepted the result of asking us - the people - what we wanted.
> 
> Let me remind them: we voted to Leave the EU. We did not vote for a deal or a variation of a deal. We voted to Leave, and we want them - the politicians - to get on with it.
> 
> While a good trading relationship with the EU is desirable, it does not change the question, nor the answer we gave in June 2016.
> 
> Even without a deal, the answer still remains the same: Leave.
> 
> To accept a deal that resolves a problem so manifestly created by the elite and the EU - the Irish backstop - would not make it any more acceptable as we would still be joined to the EU. We want to Leave.
> 
> We have the patronising voices of Remainers, the political elite, those with vested interests and the CBI telling us that we did not know what we voted for.
> 
> We have even been branded 'extremists' by our own Chancellor of the Exchequer for demanding the people's instructions be carried out to the letter.
> 
> We are now on Project Fear II - The Sequel, and it is no better than the first version. We voted Leave then and we still want to Leave now.
> 
> We have had the threat of the break-up of our country hurled at us and we have had to watch the humiliation of our Prime Minister before the unelected bureaucrats of the European Union.
> 
> We have seen the resurrection of failed politicians, many of whom enjoy the benefits of a generous EU pension for selling our country out.
> 
> Those who have had their time should stop now as they only sow the seeds of division and further damage our country.
> 
> How much more pointless pain and embarrassment will our political classes put us through before they carry out our wishes?
> 
> It must be clear by now that we will never accept the break-up of our union. Nor can we accept any more scandalous treatment of our leader when she is disrespected and humiliated at the hands of the EU, despite the fact that she herself is on the wrong side of history.
> 
> In the word of Mrs May: 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - and there is now a clear consensus that what is before us is a 'bad deal'.
> 
> We accept now that a no-deal scenario would cause some disruption in the short term.
> 
> We accept now that our economy would be impacted by any friction at the borders, and we still want to Leave.
> 
> We want to take back control. We want to be able to set our own rules in the interests of Britain's businesses and its people.
> 
> We want to have appropriate border controls and we want them to be fair to all.
> 
> We want to have our British Standards and regulatory control back. We want our politicians to spend our money on our needs. We want all this because we know we can make a success of it. The benefits of a clean Brexit will produce a boost to our economy.
> 
> We want to leave and, actually, a no-deal Brexit will be fine; so get on with it and stop selling us, the British people, out.
> 
> ​


Given this gentleman's assertion that 'we' still want to leave, he shouldn't have a problem with a referendum asking 'us' to choose between the options actually available should he? If he considers that an 'affront to democracy' I suspect that he's not quite as sure of what 'we' want as he claims.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Given this gentleman's assertion that 'we' still want to leave, he shouldn't have a problem with a referendum asking 'us' to choose between the options actually available should he? If he considers that an 'affront to democracy' I suspect that he's not quite as sure of what 'we' want as he claims.


'They' want no deal taken off the table in a second referendum though. They want the choice to be remain or TM's deal. If it does get to a second referendum, there needs to be more options than remain, or sort of remain. At the moment I do think he's right and leaving the Eu would still be a majority vote.


----------



## Magyarmum

From today's Deutsche Welle

https://www.dw.com/en/cheers-scotch-and-brexit/av-46980723


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> 'They' want no deal taken off the table in a second referendum though. They want the choice to be remain or TM's deal. If it does get to a second referendum, there needs to be more options than remain, or sort of remain. At the moment I do think he's right and leaving the Eu would still be a majority vote.


I think it would be termed Remain or the Best Available Deal rather than Sort of Remain. 

I can see you point of course, but the MPs are tasked to protect the interests of their constituents, and a No Deal Brexit simply doesn't to that except for those whose sole aim is to cut all ties with the EU regardless of the consequences.

Do you really think that there is a majority for that? Given that >48% of the country wanted to Remain, and that the word 'Leave' covers all sorts of options, there surely cannot be a majority for that most extreme of Brexits, can there? It would require 96% of Leave voters to prefer financial damage to retaining some ties to our biggest trading partners.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I think it would be termed Remain or the Best Available Deal rather than Sort of Remain.
> 
> I can see you point of course, but the MPs are tasked to protect the interests of their constituents, and a No Deal Brexit simply doesn't to that except for those whose sole aim is to cut all ties with the EU regardless of the consequences.
> 
> Do you really think that there is a majority for that? Given that >48% of the country wanted to Remain, and that the word 'Leave' covers all sorts of options, there surely cannot be a majority for that most extreme of Brexits, can there? It would require 96% of Leave voters to prefer financial damage to retaining some ties to our biggest trading partners.


That will be logical, but there is no logic in Brexit. If there was we would not have Brexit at all.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Very cunning ...
> I suspect this is what you were doing all along....


Lol no. I just read it and thought it was reasonable. Leave voters were justified in their vote and should be treated as adults. The stupid ones are the ones accusing over half of voters of stupidity.

We had a referendum because parliament and MPs voted for us to have one.


----------



## noushka05

A glimmer of hope.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 12h12 hours ago
Congrats to @YvetteCooperMP! Amendment passed 303 to 296 Important step forward - now there's clear evidence that there's a majority in parliament *against* No Deal

PM must now stop using that threat, recognise no majority for her deal either - and support a #PeoplesVote



Magyarmum said:


> January 7, 2019
> *Even without a deal, our answer still remains the same: Leave*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Written by
> Simon Boyd
> 
> Simon Boyd is Managing Director of REIDSteel and a member of the CBI Manufacturing Council. He was regional chairman of Business for Britain South West.
> 
> SHARE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The clock is ticking; in the coming days, Theresa May's ill-fated Withdrawal Agreement is due to return to Parliament.
> 
> After emphatic protestations in the House about their democratic right to vote on the proposals, MPs will finally have the chance to have their say.
> 
> Yet many of these same politicians are singularly intent on trying to stop what the British people themselves voted for: to Leave the EU.
> 
> Some of these politicians would:
> 
> 
> vote for a deal that would actually be worse than remaining in the EU (the current proposal)
> vote for the current deal with modifications to the Irish backstop
> vote for another referendum in which they would promote Remain
> Support for any of these would be a complete affront to our democracy and a betrayal of the British people.
> 
> It is patently obvious that these politicians have never accepted the result of asking us - the people - what we wanted.
> 
> Let me remind them: we voted to Leave the EU. We did not vote for a deal or a variation of a deal. We voted to Leave, and we want them - the politicians - to get on with it.
> 
> While a good trading relationship with the EU is desirable, it does not change the question, nor the answer we gave in June 2016.
> 
> Even without a deal, the answer still remains the same: Leave.
> 
> To accept a deal that resolves a problem so manifestly created by the elite and the EU - the Irish backstop - would not make it any more acceptable as we would still be joined to the EU. We want to Leave.
> 
> We have the patronising voices of Remainers, the political elite, those with vested interests and the CBI telling us that we did not know what we voted for.
> 
> We have even been branded 'extremists' by our own Chancellor of the Exchequer for demanding the people's instructions be carried out to the letter.
> 
> We are now on Project Fear II - The Sequel, and it is no better than the first version. We voted Leave then and we still want to Leave now.
> 
> We have had the threat of the break-up of our country hurled at us and we have had to watch the humiliation of our Prime Minister before the unelected bureaucrats of the European Union.
> 
> We have seen the resurrection of failed politicians, many of whom enjoy the benefits of a generous EU pension for selling our country out.
> 
> Those who have had their time should stop now as they only sow the seeds of division and further damage our country.
> 
> How much more pointless pain and embarrassment will our political classes put us through before they carry out our wishes?
> 
> It must be clear by now that we will never accept the break-up of our union. Nor can we accept any more scandalous treatment of our leader when she is disrespected and humiliated at the hands of the EU, despite the fact that she herself is on the wrong side of history.
> 
> In the word of Mrs May: 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - and there is now a clear consensus that what is before us is a 'bad deal'.
> 
> We accept now that a no-deal scenario would cause some disruption in the short term.
> 
> We accept now that our economy would be impacted by any friction at the borders, and we still want to Leave.
> 
> We want to take back control. We want to be able to set our own rules in the interests of Britain's businesses and its people.
> 
> We want to have appropriate border controls and we want them to be fair to all.
> 
> We want to have our British Standards and regulatory control back. We want our politicians to spend our money on our needs. We want all this because we know we can make a success of it. The benefits of a clean Brexit will produce a boost to our economy.
> 
> We want to leave and, actually, a no-deal Brexit will be fine; so get on with it and stop selling us, the British people, out.
> 
> ​


This is what brexit is about to unscrupulous people like Simon Boyd - deregulation. He hates EU legislation which protects workers (the environment etc) - because they stand in the way of profit! My hubby works in a foundry - & it is dangerous - maybe you'd feel different about brexit if one of your loved ones did.

*Simon Boyd on Brexit*

https://www.shponline.co.uk/news/si...rious-review-of-safety-laws-following-brexit/

The TUC has called on Prime Minister Theresa May to make clear to Britain's bosses that "any watering down of workers' rights following Brexit is off the table" following the emergence of a letter sent to MPs by Simon Boyd, the head of REIDsteel, which details a list of workers' rights on areas such as working hours, holiday pay and health and safety that he wants abolished once Britain leaves the EU.

The letter, which calls for a "serious review" of safety laws, shows that some bosses who campaigned to leave the EU saw the Brexit vote as a means to an end for scrapping workers' rights, says the TUC.

Mr Boyd, says that his medium-sized enterprise that employs 130 direct staff and around 400 indirect with a turnover circa £30M and the capacity to achieve £50, "has steadily been losing its advantage over other competing countries as a result of changes forced upon us through damaging directives and regulations that have come about as a result of our membership of the EU."

Mr Boyd's letter asks MPs to spare "a little of their valuable time to view annexed attachments so that they can see the serious damage membership of the EU causes to all UK based businesses and their staff, and in particular SMEs who cater for over 60% of employment in our country".

The annexed attachments include:


the Working Time Directive (WTD) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ) - ruling's on the WTD;
employment law;
health and safety regulations; and
Construction Products Regulations (CPR):- the CE mark.
On health and safety Mr Boyd continues in his letter: "When the Construction Design and Management Regulations came into effect, the paperwork mountain grew significantly and the accident rate across the UK went up. Business owners then had to consider more administrative staff to deal with all the boxes that had to be ticked out of this regulation and the many others that have come into play since the introduction of the EU "six pack" in the mid 90's".

Adding: "While not all health and safety regulation is bad (some of it is good), bad employers continue to flout the rules as they are largely unpoliced and don't care anyway; while the majority of hard working people are near having a mental breakdown over how to do their job. The result; a back covering highly administrative process has been allowed to grow which has negatively affected UK productivity levels."

TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said: "The Leave campaign promised people more control over their lives. But now bad bosses are trying to hijack Brexit to let them walk all over working people. No-one voted to leave to lose vital protections like safe working hours and fair holiday pay."

She added: "The Prime Minister promised working people that all rights and protections that come from the EU will be safe when Britain leaves. She must stand firm now, and guarantee that the UK will respect all existing rights at work. And she must go further and promise Britain's workers that her government will mirror all new protections for workers in the rest of Europe while the UK is negotiating to leave to leave the EU."


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> A glimmer of hope.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 12h12 hours ago
> Congrats to @YvetteCooperMP! Amendment passed 303 to 296 Important step forward - *now there's clear evidence that there's a majority in parliament *against* No Deal *
> 
> PM must now stop using that threat, recognise no majority for her deal either - and support a #PeoplesVote


Parliament, including Tory 'rebels', have told May that they do not support No Deal. Will she recognise that 'taking back control' into a sovereign UK Parliament does not mean ignoring their clear intent? Or will she continue to try to bypass the Commons and act increasingly like a dictator? Sadly, the question is not rhetorical.


----------



## Arnie83

Seen elsewhere, this (wholly unintentional) comment made me laugh ...

*"I'm not convinced that May would take us over the cliff. I suspect it's little more than a bluff."*​
:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Parliament, including Tory 'rebels', have told May that they do not support No Deal. Will she recognise that 'taking back control' into a sovereign UK Parliament does not mean ignoring their clear intent? Or will she continue to try to bypass the Commons and act increasingly like a dictator? Sadly, the question is not rhetorical.


Have you read Matthew Parris latest demolition of May and her government Arnie?


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Do you think the EU would accept Scotland into the EU ?


I assume that they would have to go through the same application process as any other country?

Would Spain still be against as they were a year or so ago?


noushka05 said:


> A glimmer of hope.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 12h12 hours ago
> Congrats to @YvetteCooperMP! Amendment passed 303 to 296 Important step forward - now there's clear evidence that there's a majority in parliament *against* No Deal
> 
> PM must now stop using that threat, recognise no majority for her deal either - and support a #PeoplesVote
> 
> This is what brexit is about to unscrupulous people like Simon Boyd - deregulation. He hates EU legislation which protects workers (the environment etc) - because they stand in the way of profit! My hubby works in a foundry - & it is dangerous - maybe you'd feel different about brexit if one of your loved ones did.
> 
> *Simon Boyd on Brexit*
> 
> https://www.shponline.co.uk/news/si...rious-review-of-safety-laws-following-brexit/
> 
> The TUC has called on Prime Minister Theresa May to make clear to Britain's bosses that "any watering down of workers' rights following Brexit is off the table" following the emergence of a letter sent to MPs by Simon Boyd, the head of REIDsteel, which details a list of workers' rights on areas such as working hours, holiday pay and health and safety that he wants abolished once Britain leaves the EU.
> 
> The letter, which calls for a "serious review" of safety laws, shows that some bosses who campaigned to leave the EU saw the Brexit vote as a means to an end for scrapping workers' rights, says the TUC.
> 
> Mr Boyd, says that his medium-sized enterprise that employs 130 direct staff and around 400 indirect with a turnover circa £30M and the capacity to achieve £50, "has steadily been losing its advantage over other competing countries as a result of changes forced upon us through damaging directives and regulations that have come about as a result of our membership of the EU."
> 
> Mr Boyd's letter asks MPs to spare "a little of their valuable time to view annexed attachments so that they can see the serious damage membership of the EU causes to all UK based businesses and their staff, and in particular SMEs who cater for over 60% of employment in our country".
> 
> The annexed attachments include:
> 
> 
> the Working Time Directive (WTD) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ) - ruling's on the WTD;
> employment law;
> health and safety regulations; and
> Construction Products Regulations (CPR):- the CE mark.
> On health and safety Mr Boyd continues in his letter: "When the Construction Design and Management Regulations came into effect, the paperwork mountain grew significantly and the accident rate across the UK went up. Business owners then had to consider more administrative staff to deal with all the boxes that had to be ticked out of this regulation and the many others that have come into play since the introduction of the EU "six pack" in the mid 90's".
> 
> Adding: "While not all health and safety regulation is bad (some of it is good), bad employers continue to flout the rules as they are largely unpoliced and don't care anyway; while the majority of hard working people are near having a mental breakdown over how to do their job. The result; a back covering highly administrative process has been allowed to grow which has negatively affected UK productivity levels."
> 
> TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said: "The Leave campaign promised people more control over their lives. But now bad bosses are trying to hijack Brexit to let them walk all over working people. No-one voted to leave to lose vital protections like safe working hours and fair holiday pay."
> 
> She added: "The Prime Minister promised working people that all rights and protections that come from the EU will be safe when Britain leaves. She must stand firm now, and guarantee that the UK will respect all existing rights at work. And she must go further and promise Britain's workers that her government will mirror all new protections for workers in the rest of Europe while the UK is negotiating to leave to leave the EU."


One letter does not a change of law make.

And don't say it's more likely after Brexit, people like this have campaigned for deregulation forever.

And don't forget the workers also have a vote as to who governs. 530 votes against his one.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I assume that they would have to go through the same application process as any other country?
> 
> Would Spain still be against as they were a year or so ago?
> 
> One letter does not a change of law make.
> 
> And don't say it's more likely after Brexit, people like this have campaigned for deregulation forever.
> 
> And don't forget the workers also have a vote as to who governs. 530 votes against his one.


No but that is the reason bosses like Simon Boyd want no deal and why brextremist politicians do . The ERG who are running the show represent disaster capitalism this is what brexit is all about for them. Mass deregulation - stripping away of workers rights & environmental protections & so on. Asset stripping, wholesale privatisation, tax cuts for big business & the elite & roll back of the state. End game for our NHS.


----------



## rona

So.......they are trying to take away the option that a lot of people voted for. 
As I said earlier in this thread, this will be a whitewash where the only winners are the politicians and rich again


----------



## noushka05

We are a joke.

*David Schneider*‏: "We will be fine with No Deal" say people in a country where flights are halted by a drone, which can't organise a traffic jam and loses its shit over a vegan sausage roll".


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> So.......they are trying to take away the option that a lot of people voted for.
> As I said earlier in this thread, this will be a whitewash where the only winners are the politicians and rich again


Did people vote for less control? Did they vote for food & medical shortages? Did they vote to destroy our NHS? Did they vote to be poorer? Did they vote to turn Kent into a lorry park? Did they vote knowing peace in NI would be jeopardised? If yes than fair enough. But I'm certain a lot didn't.

So now we know what the deal is on the table, now we are all better informed - a peoples vote is the only democratic way forward.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Why just politicians?
> 
> Farmers and country sports people face this day in day out and it's getting ever more violent with the rise of the militant vegans


I've been thinking about this post. By refusing to outright condemn the far right you are acting as an apologist for them. Dreadful.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> We are a joke.
> 
> *David Schneider*‏: "We will be fine with No Deal" say people in a country where flights are halted by a drone, which can't organise a traffic jam and loses its shit over a vegan sausage roll".


Except it didn't


----------



## Elles

In my opinion, the majority of Parliament are against leaving the Eu at all and regret giving us a vote they thought they'd win. They are using a mix of fearmongering and facts over a no deal situation to fake concern, when their real agenda is to stop brexit.

They're all a bunch of hypocrites and liars over this issue. Whether it's lying over the real reasons they want to leave, or lying over the people's vote. They don't want a people's vote, they want to stop us leaving the Eu and think another vote with TM's deal or remain as the only options will keep us in the Eu while saving face for them.

It seems some Remainers are enjoying themselves too much and are too stupid to stop insulting leave voters, they are responsible for any split in the country and will bring about a no deal brexit if they continue with it.

Just as politicians are responsible for brexit, it was they who imposed austerity then voted to give us a referendum, Remain voters, the remain supporting media and remain supporting politicians will be responsible for a no deal brexit. They're managing to make it look like the best option, with their insults and practically spitting at the only deal on offer. Of course they'll blame leave voters and whine about it, but if it happens I hope we can make a go of it. I think there'll be a short period of disruption that the country will overcome and it will then go on to be stronger than before.



noushka05 said:


> I've been thinking about this post. By refusing to outright condemn the far right you are acting as an apologist for them. Dreadful.


As for this.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Have you read Matthew Parris latest demolition of May and her government Arnie?


I think I did read that when it was published last February.


----------



## noushka05

Just doing a spot of catchup.



JANICE199 said:


> *The truth is, people didn't know what they were voting for. A deal should have been reached before there was a vote. *


Spot on Jan x


stockwellcat. said:


> You don't need facts.
> 
> The UK voted to leave.
> 
> When you leave a pub you don't wait for facts to leave the pub you leave.


That is the most ridiculous analogy I think I've heard yet.:Hilarious

As a wise old sage put it ' You leave the pub because its closing time (or you've had enough) safe
and secure knowledge that.....wait for it.....drum roll.....the pub will still be there the next day.
Unlike the Brexiteers Arms. Pub today, squat tomorrow.





JANICE199 said:


> *Haha, would you buy a house without knowing all of the facts? Or go into any *
> 
> *I feel this government have conned this country left right and centre. The world must be having a good laugh at us.*


 I really miss that rep button



AlexPed2393 said:


> I believe it. Just that those numbers are for worldwide and not specific to our situation.
> 
> The french police didn't start off with this tactic is what I'm saying. The people did not help themselves and did not use the help provided to them by the french.
> 
> Sad to hear of his death. Please do not compare brexit to the holocaust.
> 
> I read articles from the bbc, telegraph and even the guardian if I want a different viewpoint.


You haven't provided any evidence to support your assertions. There are NGOs out there in the Calais jungle who have reported what is happening - they have witnessed it. Its well documented France treats refugees abysmally.

Read this & weep.

Refugees
*The Observer view on Britain failing dismally in its moral duty to help refugees*
Observer editorial

*Our callous response to the crisis in the name of party politics belies the kindness we are capable of offering*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ritain-failing-in-moral-duty-to-help-refugees

_It's important to remember that the Holocaust actually did not start from gas chambers. This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence._

The hateful rhetoric we hear today is the same as was for the Jews. 'Lest we forget'? Some of us already have.

The Daily Mail. 'So called refugees....'



















Wouldn't it be more sensible to seek the truth rather than different viewpoints?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> In my opinion, the majority of Parliament are against leaving the Eu at all and regret giving us a vote they thought they'd win. They are using a mix of fearmongering and facts over a no deal situation to fake concern, when their real agenda is to stop brexit.
> 
> They're all a bunch of hypocrites and liars over this issue. Whether it's lying over the real reasons they want to leave, or lying over the people's vote. *They don't want a people's vote, they want to stop us leaving the Eu and think another vote with TM's deal or remain as the only options will keep us in the Eu while saving face for them.*
> 
> It seems some Remainers are enjoying themselves too much and are too stupid to stop insulting leave voters, they are responsible for any split in the country and will bring about a no deal brexit if they continue with it.
> 
> Just as politicians are responsible for brexit, it was they who imposed austerity then voted to give us a referendum, Remain voters, the remain supporting media and remain supporting politicians will be responsible for a no deal brexit. They're managing to make it look like the best option, with their insults and practically spitting at the only deal on offer. Of course they'll blame leave voters and whine about it, but if it happens I hope we can make a go of it.


If they do think this then I think they need to think again! If there is a new referendum with May's deal v. Remain I suspect the former would win.



Elles said:


> I think there'll be a short period of disruption that the country will overcome and it will then go on to be stronger than before.


Stronger in terms of what, may I ask?


----------



## Elles

I agree with the Guardian article. European countries and the U.K. should be doing more to assist refugees. Every time I read an article about migrants raping people, or pretending to be children, or the like and articles that crucify refugees, it makes me angry and not a lot makes me angry. It makes me angry for honest folk fleeing war, or persecution, who will then find it much harder, because of the actions of some. Europe can’t accommodate every person, just as I understand there are some countries I can’t go to to live and work, but refugees need safety and they need it quickly. It’s scandalous the way they are being treated.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I agree with the Guardian article. European countries and the U.K. should be doing more to assist refugees. Every time I read an article about migrants raping people, or pretending to be children, or the like and articles that crucify refugees, it makes me angry and not a lot makes me angry. It makes me angry for honest folk fleeing war, or persecution, who will then find it much harder, because of the actions of some. Europe can't accommodate every person, just as I understand there are some countries I can't go to to live and work, but refugees need safety and they need it quickly. It's scandalous the way they are being treated.


So using individual actions of individual refugees to extrapolate the whole?

Sounds familiar.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Read this & weep.
> 
> Refugees
> *The Observer view on Britain failing dismally in its moral duty to help refugees*
> Observer editorial
> 
> *Our callous response to the crisis in the name of party politics belies the kindness we are capable of offering*


The "observer view" (another word for opinion), also the other one is written in an opinion in the title.

Still I am not comparing Calais to the holocaust, I understand it did not start with gassing, it started with serial segregation fuelled by hatred. I'm not going to go into a history lesson where me and you pull up holocaust information.

Why is it our moral duty to help all the refugees that seek entrance to this country? Why isn't it the moral duty of spain, germany, france, america, russia, I don't know name anywhere but where they are from.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I've lived overseas for more than half my life and have always been proud of my country and tried to be a good ambassador for Britain.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's people like you I'm ashamed of and embarrassed by who seem to forget they have so much to be grateful for being born in this country.
> 
> https://matadornetwork.com/read/10-things-brits-can-proud/


This is more satire isn't it? :Hilarious That link is hilarious lol



MilleD said:


> Except it didn't


You just dispute the sausage roll then? lol



Elles said:


> As for this.


Have you heard Rona condemn outright Anna Soubry and Owen Jones abusers?



Arnie83 said:


> I think I did read that when it was published last February.


My mistake Arnie. I thought it was his recent article. He has done one, I will track it down.



Elles said:


> I agree with the Guardian article. European countries and the U.K. should be doing more to assist refugees. Every time I read an article about migrants raping people, or pretending to be children, or the like and articles that crucify refugees, it makes me angry and not a lot makes me angry. It makes me angry for honest folk fleeing war, or persecution, who will then find it much harder, because of the actions of some. Europe can't accommodate every person, just as I understand there are some countries I can't go to to live and work, but refugees need safety and they need it quickly. It's scandalous the way they are being treated.


Totally agree with you on this Elles


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> The "observer view" (another word for opinion), also the other one is written in an opinion in the title.
> 
> Still I am not comparing Calais to the holocaust, I understand it did not start with gassing, it started with serial segregation fuelled by hatred. I'm not going to go into a history lesson where me and you pull up holocaust information.
> 
> Why is it our moral duty to help all the refugees that seek entrance to this country? Why isn't it the moral duty of spain, germany, france, america, russia, I don't know name anywhere but where they are from.


It is the moral duty of all. If we are failing in that duty, it is to us to point it out and press our politicians into doing better. We can't be held responsible for how Russia treats refugees, but we can influence our own politicians. Even more so in the future if leaving the Eu gives voters the control we supposedly hope for.


----------



## Elles

In response to your Rona comment @noushka05 . Rona asked for all to be protected. Do you think politicians you agree with are more of a priority? Rona was condemning all abuse and your assertion that in doing so she was supporting the far right is ridiculous in my view. Of course Rona doesn't support far right fascists, nothing in her years of postings have ever led me to me to remotely consider anything even close to that view of her.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> The "observer view" (another word for opinion), also the other one is written in an opinion in the title.
> 
> Still I am not comparing Calais to the holocaust, I understand it did not start with gassing, it started with serial segregation fuelled by hatred. I'm not going to go into a history lesson where me and you pull up holocaust information.
> 
> Why is it our moral duty to help all the refugees that seek entrance to this country? Why isn't it the moral duty of spain, germany, france, america, russia, I don't know name anywhere but where they are from.


What do you dispute in the article?

Even though we helped to create the refugee crisis you still don't think we have a moral duty to help them? Were you aware that 85% of the worlds refugees are hosted by the poorest countries? Does this not fill you with shame?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> In response to your Rona comment @noushka05 . Rona asked for all to be protected. Do you think politicians you agree with are more of a priority? Rona was condemning all abuse and your assertion that in doing so she was supporting the far right is ridiculous in my view. Of course Rona doesn't support far right fascists, nothing in her years of postings have ever led me to me to remotely consider anything even close to that view of her.


No she didn't. She used her usual diversion tactics.


----------



## noushka05

Brexiteers should be happy. They wanted Parliament to take back control.

*Andrew Adonis*‏:

A massive row going on behind the scenes in the Commons about the Speaker's decision to allow Dominic *Grieve* to move his motion requiring the government to table its new Brexit policy within 3 days of losing Mrs May's deal

Parliament is taking back control.

.......

*Caroline Lucas*‏:

Brilliant news! Finally,

Parliament is taking back control of this shambles of a #Brexit.

....


----------



## noushka05

Excellent - as always.

*Caroline Lucas*‏:
Using the abusive behaviour of a small group of men outside Parliament as an excuse to avoid #PeoplesVote doesn't just fail to stand up to these thugs - it plays into their hands. #Brexit is too important to be left to the extremists.

My @MetroUK column https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/09/dont...-you-we-are-living-through-civil-war-8322715/


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Do you think politicians you agree with are more of a priority?


Yes, I believe she does, which is (one of the reasons) why I have her on ignore, but I saw you had tagged her and read your post.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Excellent - as always.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏:
> Using the abusive behaviour of a small group of men outside Parliament as an excuse to avoid #PeoplesVote doesn't just fail to stand up to these thugs - it plays into their hands. #Brexit is too important to be left to the extremists.
> 
> My @MetroUK column https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/09/dont...-you-we-are-living-through-civil-war-8322715/


Who's suggested that half a dozen idiots have influenced anyone into anything? Apart from the usual people using it to tar everyone who even thought of voting leave with the same brush of course. Who is using it to pretend that it's preventing a people's vote? Caroline Lucas wants to stay in the Eu, she doesn't want brexit, so why would she hash tag it, as though she has some kind of alternative Brexit to that of extremists?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

@ noushka05 said ......

*"My hubby works in a foundry - & it is dangerous - maybe you'd feel different about brexit if one of your loved ones did"
*
You should be very careful about making assumptions about people you don't know based, purely on their political inclinations.

My maternal grandparents lived within sight of the Stanton Iron Works where my uncle worked for most of his life, and I've seen him come home with burns on his arms and hands, so I'm well aware what a dangerous environment it is to work in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/...obert_lindsay_stanton_ironworks_feature.shtml

My mother was barely literate having been taken out of school at 12 years old to look after her alcoholic mother and baby brother. The house they lived in until they died had no running water, electricity, gas, no bathroom and an outside toilet. Such luxury!

On my father's side the men in his family had for generations worked down pit (from 1810 onward) in either the Heanor or Cossall colliery His own father was one of 9 brothers all of whom were miners as were their sons. The daughters usually worked as seamstresses at Wolsey's factory in Kimberley. and were married to miners.

http://www.ukminingremains.co.uk/1800-to-1829/4593819370

My own father much against his family's wishes, decided not to go down the mines and on leaving school aged 14 years old worked for a market gardener and later as a bus conductor as well in order to pay for accountancy studies. During the war he was a fireman and in 1948 after working for other people decided to set up his own business which with lots of hard work (and worry) provided us with a reasonable standard of living.

So sorry noushka if I've disappointed you by not being as "Downton Abbey" as you'd hoped. (And not the right wing extremist you seem to think I am).

I'm just little old me who's very proud to be a coal miner's granddaughter ....... but that doesn't change my views about Brexit!










.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Do you think politicians you agree with are more of a priority?


I missed that bit so thanks Calvine. But Wow:Jawdrop

Lets face it though, the politicians I agree with are the ones at risk of being targeted by the far right. They're *never* going to target brextreemists. Which speaks volumes.



Calvine said:


> Yes, I believe she does, which is (one of the reasons) why I have her on ignore, but I saw you had tagged her and read your post.


Course you have me on ignore:Hilarious What a weird reason to pretend you have though.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> @ noushka05 said ......
> 
> *"My hubby works in a foundry - & it is dangerous - maybe you'd feel different about brexit if one of your loved ones did"
> *
> You should be very careful about making assumptions about people you don't know based, purely on their political inclinations.
> 
> My maternal grandparents lived within sight of the Stanton Iron Works where my uncle worked for most of his life, and I've seen him come home with burns on his arms and hands, so I'm well aware what a dangerous environment it is to work in.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/...obert_lindsay_stanton_ironworks_feature.shtml
> 
> My mother was barely literate having been taken out of school at 12 years old to look after her alcoholic mother and baby brother. The house they lived in until they died had no running water, electricity, gas, no bathroom and an outside toilet. Such luxury!
> 
> On my father's side the men in his family had for generations worked down pit (from 1810 onward) in either the Heanor or Cossall colliery His own father was one of 9 brothers all of whom were miners as were their sons. The daughters usually worked as seamstresses at Wolsey's factory in Kimberley. and were married to miners.
> 
> http://www.ukminingremains.co.uk/1800-to-1829/4593819370
> 
> My own father much against his family's wishes, decided not to go down the mines and on leaving school aged 14 years old worked for a market gardener and later as a bus conductor as well in order to pay for accountancy studies. During the war he was a fireman and in 1948 after working for other people decided to set up his own business which with lots of hard work (and worry) provided us with a reasonable standard of living.
> 
> So sorry noushka if I've disappointed you by not being as "Downton Abbey" as you'd hoped. (And not the right wing extremist you seem to think I am).
> 
> I'm just little old me who's very proud to be a coal miner's granddaughter ....... but that doesn't change my views about Brexit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


You being Downton Abbyish at all never even entered my head - sorry to disappoint you! lol I can only go on your posts on here as to your political leanings & you can't get much more right wing than the ERG set of tories you appear to agree with.

All this though and you agree with a man who wants roll back safety regulations for workers? I wonder, would you feel differently if your loved ones still held those jobs or would the risks to their safety be worth sacrificing on the alter of brexit?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> I missed that bit so thanks Calvine. But Wow:Jawdrop
> 
> Lets face it though, the politicians I agree with are the ones at risk of being targeted by the far right. They're *never* going to target brextreemists. Which speaks volumes.
> 
> Course you have me on ignore:Hilarious What a weird reason to pretend you have though.


When Corbyn was asked whether he condemned a particular group, he said he condemned all violence and terrorism and you agreed with him. When Rona does the same, you jump up in fake disgust and accuse her of being an apologist for far right extremist fascist thugs. Even though it's perfectly obvious that she's nothing of the sort. Why do you feel this is necessary?

As you haven't condemned violence against politicians you don't agree with, does this mean you do support violence and extremism, so long as your favoured aren't the targets?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> What do you dispute in the article?
> 
> Even though we helped to create the refugee crisis you still don't think we have a moral duty to help them? Were you aware that 85% of the worlds refugees are hosted by the poorest countries? Does this not fill you with shame?


 I dispute this

_The government has failed to do enough to provide safe routes to Britain for refugees in line with our moral obligations as one of the richest countries of the world. The scheme to resettle 20,000 Syrian refugees over four years, announced in 2015, was welcome. But why not more, and why not refugees from other conflict-ridden countries?_

Safe routes to Britain, so you're saying we should spend taxpayers money on making it easier for illegal immigrants to exploit the refugee crisis? because lets be honest it will happen.
Resettle 20,000 syrian refugees over 4 years, yes thats great but then "why not more" oh jolly lets just allow everyone who is hard done by into the country, the whole of middle africa, the whole of the middle east, poverty ridden india, the slums of south africa, the caravan in south america.

I like to have two scoops of coffee in my morning drink "but why not more" because I might need an emergency toilet break later in the day


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> When Corbyn was asked whether he condemned a particular group, he said he condemned all violence and terrorism and you agreed with him. When Rona does the same, you jump up in fake disgust and accuse her of being an apologist for far right extremist fascist thugs. Even though it's perfectly obvious that she's nothing of the sort. Why do you feel this is necessary?


Show me where Rona condemned the far right then? She didn't, she used the incident, not to condemn their actions, but to make up some rubbish to attack vegans - vegan bashing seems her favourite pass time at the moment.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I dispute this
> 
> _The government has failed to do enough to provide safe routes to Britain for refugees in line with our moral obligations as one of the richest countries of the world. The scheme to resettle 20,000 Syrian refugees over four years, announced in 2015, was welcome. But why not more, and why not refugees from other conflict-ridden countries?_
> 
> Safe routes to Britain, so you're saying we should spend taxpayers money on making it easier for illegal immigrants to exploit the refugee crisis? because lets be honest it will happen.
> Resettle 20,000 syrian refugees over 4 years, yes thats great but then "why not more" oh jolly lets just allow everyone who is hard done by into the country, the whole of middle africa, the whole of the middle east, poverty ridden india, the slums of south africa, the caravan in south america.
> 
> I like to have two scoops of coffee in my morning drink "but why not more" because I might need an emergency toilet break later in the day


The caravan in south America.................

It sounds as though you are getting your information from right wing propaganda outlets. Can you provide some references please?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> As you haven't condemned violence against politicians you don't agree with, does this mean you do support violence and extremism, so long as your favoured aren't the targets?


Just noticed you've added a bit. Has there actually been any violence against politicians I don't agree with for me to condemn? I certainly wouldn't engage in diversionary tactics if there was.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The caravan in south America.................
> 
> It sounds as though you are getting your information from right wing propaganda outlets. Can you provide some references please?


I was making a point as to saying "but why not more" in this context, can also translate into lets help everyone and allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK.


----------



## noushka05

My god this is shocking. How do these people get elected

Quick reminder that most Tory MPs - not some, most - are deeply misinformed. (via Ian Dunt)

What will happen if there's a no deal Brexit?

Conservative MPs expect:

•no long queues at ports

•no drop in house prices

•no medical shortages

•no flight cancellations

•BUT a significant drop in the £

Our latest polling of MPs with @MileEndInst: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/what-mps-really-think-about-may-s-brexit-deal-sq0hq27z7 …


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I was making a point as to saying "but why not more" in this context, can also translate into lets help everyone and allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK.


The 'caravan' is lie made up by Trump to whip up anti immigration hysteria in the USA before a vote - just like Javid is doing here.

So I'm curious to know where you get your information from? No one has ever suggested we allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK. How have you reached this assumption?


----------



## AlexPed2393

@noushka05 you say I use propaganda outlets and then you quote THE TIMES!!!!


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The 'caravan' is lie made up by Trump to whip up anti immigration hysteria in the USA before a vote - just like Javid is doing here.
> 
> So I'm curious to know where you get your information from? No one has ever suggested we allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK. How have you reached this assumption?


So this image is a total lie? and the big one?

















I'm simply extrapolating the "but why not more" statement. We can help a select few but we are a densely populated island with a struggling health service and plenty of other things wrong that we need to sort out. Before we try and help everyone that knocks on our door in calais or elsewhere


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> @noushka05 you say I use propaganda outlets and then you quote THE TIMES!!!!


The poll was conducted by Ipsos Mori - and tbqh, plenty of tory MPs are saying these things in the media & on social media - I just didnt realise that is MOST of them who are misinformed.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> No one has ever suggested we allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK. How have you reached this assumption?


I'm not getting involved in this one! But I do repeatedly notice in debates such as this, and many Brexit ones, that questioning a low limit on something always seems to invite the accusation that one is proposing that there be no limit at all.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not getting involved in this one! But I do repeatedly notice in debates such as this, and many Brexit ones, that questioning a low limit on something always seems to invite the accusation that one is proposing that there be no limit at all.


I'm getting you involved a little :Angelic. It's the absence of a limit which makes people wonder


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm getting you involved a little :Angelic. It's the absence of a limit which makes people wonder


Fair comment, but I don't think it's an argument against more being done.

I would like to see more done to help the world's refugees, especially when the UK is not blameless in their creation. By the same token I don't think we should immediately welcome everyone in.

I would - agreeing with you I suspect - want to see actual numbers argued, agreed and stated, with plans for what 'letting them in' means in terms of support, preparations, costs, etc. It's difficult to do, no doubt, but we shouldn't close down the debate by claiming that those who are asking for more to be done are in effect suggesting that there should be no limit to our generosity.

Probably getting off the Brexit question though, since May's Deal, No Deal, or choosing to Remain after all has no immediate effect on our treatment of refugees.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I would - agreeing with you I suspect - want to see actual numbers argued, agreed and stated, with plans for what 'letting them in' means in terms of support, preparations, costs, etc. It's difficult to do, no doubt, but we shouldn't close down the debate by claiming that those who are asking for more to be done are in effect suggesting that there should be no limit to our generosity.


Totally agree 

Anyway... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...s-mps-set-begin-five-days-debate-tory-rebels/

May seems to be running out of support


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> Totally agree
> 
> Anyway... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...s-mps-set-begin-five-days-debate-tory-rebels/
> 
> May seems to be running out of support


Im not quite sure what happened here. I can only read part of the article .
Yesterday Bercow over ruled officials who said Dominic Grieves amendment was in breach of the rules then today Grieves amendment was passed?

ETA The Guardian are on of a bit of a downer about Bercow. Its not democracy. 
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ffice-of-speaker-and-our-democracy?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Im not quite sure what happened here. I can only read part of the article .
> Yesterday Bercow over ruled officials who said Dominic Grieves amendment was *in breach of the rules *then today Grieves amendment was passed?
> 
> ETA The Guardian are on of a bit of a downer about Bercow. Its not democracy.
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ffice-of-speaker-and-our-democracy?CMP=twt_gu


The 'accusation' in the Commons today was that it was against precedent, rather than in breach of any rules.

As one MP pointed out though, such complaints are invariably made only by those who think they might lose the resulting vote!

My view is, since the Commons voted in favour of the amendment, it clearly represented the will of our sovereign Parliament. Something that allows that will to be expressed has surely got to be a good thing, and if 'precedent' prevents it, then perhaps it was time a new precedent was set.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Children behave better at school than the MP's do in Parliament.


----------



## stuaz

stockwellcat. said:


> Children behave better at school than the MP's do in Parliament.


Houses of Parliament is always a bit cringing when watching it, all the weird jeering and grunting... as an outsider looking in, the process and actions has always come across very odd!

Welcome back btw!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The 'accusation' in the Commons today was that it was against precedent, rather than in breach of any rules.
> 
> As one MP pointed out though, such complaints are invariably made only by those who think they might lose the resulting vote!
> 
> My view is, since the Commons voted in favour of the amendment, it clearly represented the will of our sovereign Parliament. Something that allows that will to be expressed has surely got to be a good thing, and if 'precedent' prevents it, then perhaps it was time a new precedent was set.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-bercow-overruled-commons-clerks-helped-hand/

I took the statement from the above link . 

The Guardian link says On Wednesday morning John Bercow was widely reported to have ignored the considered advice of the official guardians of the rules of procedure, and allowed a cross-party amendment tabled by Dominic Grieve to be voted on.

So those rules arent legal?

Just found the BBC link
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-46810616
Boom! After a humdrum, almost completely unrevealing Prime Minister's Questions, the Commons erupted over Speaker John Bercow's decision to allow an attempt to change the rules for the resumed "meaningful vote" debate.

This is no mere technicality. The amendment proposed by former Attorney General Dominic Grieve would require the government to come back within three days, rather than 21, to debate the implications of not having a Brexit deal - if the prime minister's deal is indeed voted down next Tuesday.

Under the previous rules, that debate would be kicked back to late February, with the Brexit clock ticking remorselessly in the background.

The new Grieve amendment, now passed by MPs, means that in the event the PM loses next week, the Commons will then have a chance to vote on alternative policies - everything from a "managed no-deal" to a further referendum, via a "Norway option" or a reheated version of the current deal, could be on the table.

If a majority could be found for anything, it would not have the force of law - but it would at least indicate a policy which had the support of MPs.


----------



## rona

Perhaps Parliament may start running as it should. 
I was hoping for a shake up of our political system.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The 'accusation' in the Commons today was that it was against precedent, rather than in breach of any rules.
> 
> As one MP pointed out though, such complaints are invariably made only by those who think they might lose the resulting vote!
> 
> My view is, since the Commons voted in favour of the amendment, it clearly represented the will of our sovereign Parliament. Something that allows that will to be expressed has surely got to be a good thing, and if 'precedent' prevents it, then perhaps it was time a new precedent was set.


Its still being said he broke rules rather than precendent , this government didn't set them and I think it shows his bias.


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46735713

We all know polls have been repeatedly wrong, so we can't rely on them, but it does appear that TM's deal isn't popular with the public. I think the pollsters should get people to answer questions relating to the deal, to see if anyone actually knows what it is, or are going on what their favourite media says.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46735713
> 
> We all know polls have been repeatedly wrong, so we can't rely on them, but it does appear that TM's deal isn't popular with the public. * I think the pollsters should get people to answer questions relating to the deal, to see if anyone actually knows what it is, or are going on what their favourite media says.*


It would have been nice if they had done that 3 years ago with regard to the EU!


----------



## Magyarmum

**
*Seaborne Freight trials first ferry crossing from Ramsgate*
2 Days Ago

 FACEBOOK
 PREV ARTICLE









Under-fire Seaborne Freight has launched its first sea trials ahead of easing Britain's transport crisis in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The company, which won a £13.8 million Government contract from Chris Grayling, despite having no ships, ports or even a website, has moved quickly to prove it is ready for business.

The nation's media was invited to the Port of Ramsgate in Kent today to view the first container being put on Seaborne Freight's flagship ferry.

At 1pm the shipment left Kent en route to Ostend in Belgium, where it was expect by sometime next week, if the wind is in the right direction.

The sturdy wooden vessel should not sink given the better weather conditions expected from March.

Seaborne Freight was controversially awarded the contract after fears grew that the M20 could get overwhelmed by lorries unable to move swiftly through Dover after Brexit.

The idea was to divert some of that traffic to the new service from Ramsgate.

Seaborne Freight bosses have moved to show they are more than ready with their new £13 million.

Insider Lorraine Fisher, 34, said: "Today's departure of one container on our bespoke cross-channel vessel shows how prepared we are."

She added: "We expect to have another boat like this before Britain tumbles out of the EU in March, so really everyone needs to calm down. We've got it all under control."


----------



## stockwellcat.

M6 at junctions 15 and 16 was closed last night as police and UK Border Force delt with 27 migrants that had stowed away in a lorry. The lorry driver has been arrested.

If anyone says the migrants are desperate I beg to differ as they have realised they will be stopped coming over her via the English channel because UK Border force, Royal Navy or French Navy will pick them up and return them to France, now they are getting into lorries UK bound and breaking into the UK illegally that way. I hope they are sent back to France to join the queue of those applying legally to enter the UK?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I hope they are sent back to France to join the queue of those applying legally to enter the UK?


 Don't hold your breath!! Apparently many lorries were pulled over and searched because someone (probably the migrants [NB not refugees] themselves) rang to report ''someone in distress''. The driver must be making a few quid pocket money; let's hope his lorry is confiscated and massive fine imposed.


----------



## Elles

Paddy Power took bets on a potato shortage by last July too. They make a lot of money.


----------



## KittenKong

From Brext Exposed:

EDITORIAL | Nazis in our midst.

The projection of far right behaviour and ideology by the extremist Leave supporters outside Parliament onto their political opponents is not unexpected - it's the MO used by extreme Leavers for some time.

The evidence is clear though. Denying parliamentary democracy, referencing a once-only flawed and criminal vote to generate an unchangeable 'will of the people' narrative, scapegoating different ethnic groups and foreigners, using (social) media to propagate hatred, extreme and ugly nationalism, disdain for other people's rights, misogyny and minority bashing, obsession with an external foreign threat, hatred of experts and intellectuals and use of violence or threats to suppress divergent political opinion are all known facets of fascism - and the MO of the thugs outside Parliament.

They are the fascists. Don't believe their projection. It's the old trick. Portray your own evils on your opponents. Trump uses it all the time.

If we should have learned one lesson from the 1930s, it's this: Appeasement doesn't work. The authorities need to come down hard on these extreme Brexit fascist thugs.

This means criminal charges, condemnation and closure of their social media platforms and fund-raising. Facebook and PayPal has already done this. Twitter needs to follow.

Nazis and fascists openly and aggressively attacking politicians, press and activists outside our democratic institutions is simply not acceptable.

It's time to fight back.

- Editor.

Picture Source: The Times.

Like | Follow | Share


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn making a speech on BBC 2 . Labour have a sensible deal and promising a peoples' vote . Really ? 
He will say anything to get in power. Labour want to force another election and they are using Brexit to do it .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387641
> From Brext Exposed:
> 
> EDITORIAL | Nazis in our midst.


 They even run hotels !


----------



## AlexPed2393

Once again the use of the word Nazi when describing someone who doesn't agree with your vote.



KittenKong said:


> The authorities need to come down hard on these extreme Brexit fascist thugs.


Tell me what they have done which is illegal. "They must come down hard on them", it's not like people from the other side of the argument have been horrible. Oh and here is an example of it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/education-41837205/brexit-supporting-students-getting-abuse-on-campus


----------



## Elles

Harassing, intimidating and bullying a woman going about her business is ok then? I agree with Kitten Kong this time. It shouldn’t ever be acceptable.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Harassing, intimidating and bullying a woman going about her business is ok then? I agree with Kitten Kong this time. It shouldn't ever be acceptable.


Didn't say it was ok, just said it wasn't illegal. There are things that we deem unacceptable but are not illegal and this is one of them.


----------



## Elles

It is illegal in the U.K.


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder how much taxpayers' money is being utilised to promote this on Facebook?

Oh yes, no longer considered to be part of Europe from the 30th March...


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> M6 at junctions 15 and 16 was closed last night as police and UK Border Force delt with 27 migrants that had stowed away in a lorry. The lorry driver has been arrested.
> 
> If anyone says the migrants are desperate I beg to differ as they have realised they will be stopped coming over her via the English channel because UK Border force, Royal Navy or French Navy will pick them up and return them to France, now they are getting into lorries UK bound and breaking into the UK illegally that way. I hope they are sent back to France to join the queue of those applying legally to enter the UK?


Did you never see this series on BBC about the UK Border Agency in Calais? I think I saw it sometime in 2017.






The last time I was in Calais was fairly late in the evening just before Christmas 4 years ago. I know Calais well having seen it develop from a small fishing village where they used to have to crane your car off the ferry into a thriving tourist town. When I was there the town was deserted and the following morning on our way to catch the ferry we made sure all the car doors were locked!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> It is illegal in the U.K.


 I believe it can carry a custodial sentence (especially cyber bullying).


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn making a speech on BBC 2 . Labour have a sensible deal and *promising a peoples' vote* . Really ?
> He will say anything to get in power. Labour want to force another election and they are using Brexit to do it .


I didn't hear him say that. He said it is not off the table but the sequence of events is to call for a GE when (if) May's deal is voted down next week, with the possibility of supporting calls for a further referendum if that doesn't work (which it won't). Or did I miss something (which is quite possible)?


----------



## Arnie83

This, I think, is a very good piece. (Other opinions are available.)

http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/01/09/parliament-is-now-at-war-with-government-and-it-s-winning


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't hear him say that. He said it is not off the table but the sequence of events is to call for a GE when (if) May's deal is voted down next week, with the possibility of supporting calls for a further referendum if that doesn't work (which it won't). Or did I miss something (which is quite possible)?


It was running along the bottom of the screen of BBC 2 news , though maybe promise wasn't the exact word, I need to take screen shots .  It definitely said better deal though .

AS I said before Im not against a peoples vote or referendum .


----------



## Elles

I think it’s more likely that Theresa May’s deal will go through, than Jeremy Corbyn will win a General Election. Most of Labour want him to back a second referendum instead, because most of them know that imo.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I think it's more likely that Theresa May's deal will go through, than Jeremy Corbyn will win a General Election. Most of Labour want him to back a second referendum instead, because most of them know that imo.


If the deal goes through , there wouldn;t be a GE any time soon but if she fails and gets a vote of no confidence then I think one will be called . I would expect labour to win it .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> It was running along the bottom of the screen of BBC 2 news , though maybe promise wasn't the exact word, I need to take screen shots .  It definitely said better deal though .
> 
> AS I said before Im not against a peoples vote or referendum .


Jeremy Corbyn speaking on BBC just over an hour ago!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46824125

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-poli...calls-for-election-over-pm-handling-of-brexit


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> If the deal goes through , there wouldn;t be a GE any time soon but if she fails and gets a vote of no confidence then I think one will be called . I would expect labour to win it .


Would you? I don't know where it would go from here tbh, it all seems a bit short on time really, but I find it quite hard to imagine JC as Prime Minister.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Would you? I don't know where it would go from here tbh, it all seems a bit short on time really, but I find it quite hard to imagine JC as Prime Minister.


Its crazy ! I hope it doesnt come to another GE yet. I think JC is a hinderence to Labour but people had enough of Tories.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Its crazy ! I hope it doesnt come to another GE yet. I think JC is a hinderence to Labour but people had enough of Tories.


I think he should retire. Fat chance. Another GE will cause more uncertanity. He lives in a bubble.


----------



## Elles

If there is a general election, nothing will change over brexit as JC wants to leave the Eu even more than TM does. If they really want to know what people think, a GE isn’t the way to find out.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Would you? I don't know where it would go from here tbh, it all seems a bit short on time really, but I find it quite hard to imagine JC as Prime Minister.


... especially since, with the Tories currently looking like they are reprising the custard pie fight scene in Bugsy Malone, he has contrived to keep Labour behind in the polls!


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Harassing, intimidating and bullying a woman going about her business is ok then? I agree with Kitten Kong this time. It shouldn't ever be acceptable.


So do I. As long as it's accepted that it isn't all leave voters that are implicated


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I think he should retire. Fat chance. Another GE will cause more uncertanity. He lives in a bubble.


He's not the only one. No prizes for guessing who I'm on about.

A GE is unlikely to happen, May has cemented herself as PM for at least another year. Some sources suggest the DUP will continue their support even if not for her Brexit deal, so there was some value to the £1bn bribe after all.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> ... especially since, with the Tories currently looking like they are reprising the custard pie fight scene in Bugsy Malone, he has contrived to keep Labour behind in the polls!


That _is_ a rare talent.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Indeed and @Jesthar too.


Aww, thank you 

Truth be told, I really don't like politics. I much prefer open and honest (and polite!) factual discourse, but I'm also a realist and understand the rarity value of that standpoint these days, particularly where poitics is concerned!  So I try to limit myself to areas I understand and can contribute pertinant observations on. 



Elles said:


> If they really want to know what people think, a GE isn't the way to find out.


Indeed. Although currently our democratic leaders do not appear to favour the obvious option for ascertaining that information, mainly (as far as I can fathom) on the grounds that democratically asking the people what they think of the current options might return a different public opinion than the democratic opinion poll of two years ago, and therefore be undemocratic.

At which point my head starts to hurt, and I have to stop thinking about it before my logic circuits blow a fuse again...


----------



## Magyarmum

*UK and Japan forge new alliance to shape 21st Century*
Japanese PM Shinzo Abe to meet Prime Minister Theresa May in Downing Street and agree pioneering collaboration on medical research, robotics and use of data.

Published 10 January 2019
From:
Prime Minister's Office, 10 Downing Street and The Rt Hon Theresa May MP









The UK and Japan will announce an ambitious programme - and £30m of initial funding - for cutting-edge technology to boost innovation, create high-skilled jobs and improve people's quality of life.

Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe will today (Thu 10 Jan) meet Prime Minister Theresa May for their first talks in Downing Street, following her successful visit to Tokyo and Kyoto last year.

For the first time British and Japanese researchers and industry experts will work side by side on projects to tackle the Grand Challenges identified by the UK's modern Industrial Strategy and Japan's Society 5.0.

These include designing robotic systems to allow our ageing populations to live independently in their home for longer, finding new treatments for chronic conditions like dementia and heart failure, and new forms of greener transport and energy storing to ensure a cleaner world for future generations.

Figures show wider adoption of such technology could create 175,000 new jobs and boost the UK manufacturing sector by £455bn over the next decade.

The UK and Japan will also explore how businesses and innovators can use big data legally, ethically and safely in the future.

In their talks, the leaders will discuss the economic opportunities that exist for both nations as the UK leaves the European Union.

Following positive discussions at the G20 in Buenos Aires, Prime Minister Abe will reiterate Japan's commitment to an ambitious bilateral arrangement with the UK, building on the agreement between Japan and the EU. This will give businesses stability, support jobs, and ensure greater choice and lower prices for consumers.

Japan will also scrap the existing export ban on British beef and lamb, in place since 1996, worth £127 million to British farmers over five years.

Ahead of today's visit, Prime Minister Theresa May said:

The UK and Japan are natural partners. We face many of the same challenges. But also the same immense opportunities. By agreeing to forge a new, dynamic partnership, we not only back some of the most cutting-edge sectors in our economy, but will also improve people's lives and shape the 21st Century for the better. This is our modern Industrial Strategy in action.

As the UK prepares to leave the EU, we raise our horizons towards the rest of the world. Our relationship with Japan is stronger than ever, and this visit will enhance co-operation in a wide range of areas. From trade and investment, to science and innovation, and our unwavering commitment to defence and security - the close bond between our nations will help us achieve our shared goals.

Prime Minister Abe will receive a military Guard of Honour for the first time ahead of bilateral talks in Downing Street. The two leaders will also attend a briefing chaired by Security Minister Ben Wallace where senior representatives from emergency services will share the UK's experience of hosting large international events ahead of this year's Rugby World Cup and 2020 Olympics in Japan.

The UK and Japan will also agree to:


Build on last year's Joint Declaration that stepped up our defence and security partnership. The UK will increase the number of combined exercises between our defence forces and strengthen maritime co-operation.
Deploy HMS Montrose to Japan in early 2019, to enforce sanctions against the DPRK as part of our joint determination to a peaceful resolution to tension in the region and the complete denuclearisation of North Korea.
Collaborate on new defence technologies, including co-operation on future combat aircraft, missile development and autonomous systems that will ensure our forces remain an effective deterrent, as well as supporting high-skilled jobs.
Strengthen cultural ties, with the National Gallery sending a major exhibition of its masterpieces to Japan - including the famous 'Sunflowers' by Vincent Van Gogh - as part of a year-long UK-Japan Season of Culture starting next September.


----------



## Elles

Whale meat on the menu?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Whale meat on the menu?


Didn't Vera Lynn have a song about that?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Whale meat on the menu?


http://www.recipespastandpresent.org.uk/wartime/tag/whale-meat/


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Didn't Vera Lynn have a song about that?


I think it was called "Whale Meat again".


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387641
> From Brext Exposed:
> 
> EDITORIAL | Nazis in our midst.
> 
> The projection of far right behaviour and ideology by the extremist Leave supporters outside Parliament onto their political opponents is not unexpected - it's the MO used by extreme Leavers for some time.
> 
> The evidence is clear though. Denying parliamentary democracy, referencing a once-only flawed and criminal vote to generate an unchangeable 'will of the people' narrative, scapegoating different ethnic groups and foreigners, using (social) media to propagate hatred, extreme and ugly nationalism, disdain for other people's rights, misogyny and minority bashing, obsession with an external foreign threat, hatred of experts and intellectuals and use of violence or threats to suppress divergent political opinion are all known facets of fascism - and the MO of the thugs outside Parliament.
> 
> They are the fascists. Don't believe their projection. It's the old trick. Portray your own evils on your opponents. Trump uses it all the time.
> 
> If we should have learned one lesson from the 1930s, it's this: Appeasement doesn't work. The authorities need to come down hard on these extreme Brexit fascist thugs.
> 
> This means criminal charges, condemnation and closure of their social media platforms and fund-raising. Facebook and PayPal has already done this. Twitter needs to follow.
> 
> Nazis and fascists openly and aggressively attacking politicians, press and activists outside our democratic institutions is simply not acceptable.
> 
> It's time to fight back.
> 
> - Editor.
> 
> Picture Source: The Times.
> 
> Like | Follow | Share


An article from "The Week" about James Goddard, the leader of the yobbos who harassed Anna Soubry.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/98859/jam...aign=theweekdaily_newsletter&utm_medium=email

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-week/

*Far-right views go beyond Islam*
Goddard claims to have no political affiliations, but The Independent says his posts on Gab, a "free speech" social network that has become a hub for extremists, prove that he "has been voicing far-right views online since at least August 2017".

The news site adds that although "the majority of his hate-filled posts attacked Islam", he also expressed racism and transphobia, suggesting that mixed-race trans model Munroe Bergdorf should "jog off back to the jungle".


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Whale meat on the menu?


 I hope not . Its like Spain and bull fighting and Canada and seal clubbing etc , I try not to buy goods from those countries


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I hope not . Its like Spain and bull fighting and Canada and seal clubbing etc , I try not to buy goods from those countries


Hate to tell you but in France they eat horse meat!

My French DIL loves nothing better than horse steak tartare and I'm fairly sure I must have unknowingly eaten horse meat at some point during my stays in France!

https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/8qb5vv/inside-frances-fading-love-affair-with-horse-meat​


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Hate to tell you but in France they eat horse meat!
> 
> My French DIL loves nothing better than horse steak tartare and I'm fairly sure I must have unknowingly eaten horse meat at some point during my stays in France!
> 
> https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/8qb5vv/inside-frances-fading-love-affair-with-horse-meat
> ​



Yes I know and force feed geese for foie gras . I spent some time in France myself , I might have unwittingly eaten some. 
Its not really about what people eat but the cruelty.
Quite a few countries we have dealing with, in the EU too, there will be animal welfare concerns .

http://www.hsi.org/world/europe/work/fur/facts/fur_farming_eu.html

ETA :EU discussions here but I dont' know if anything is actually done.
http://www.animalwelfareintergroup.eu/​


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Hate to tell you but in France they eat horse meat!


 Yes and I'm on my high horse about it  
:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Yes and I'm on my high horse about it
> :Hilarious


You're name's not Godiva by any chance?


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> You're name's not Godiva by any chance?


 How did you know :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Japanese PM thinks No Deal is not s very good idea and that the whole world agrees.
Project Fear obviously.

Trump, Putin and ERG are in favour?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Japanese PM thinks No Deal is not s very good idea and that the whole world agrees.
> Project Fear obviously.
> 
> Trump, Putin and ERG are in favour?


Don't confuse no deal with Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Japanese PM thinks No Deal is not s very good idea and that the whole world agrees.
> Project Fear obviously.
> 
> Trump, Putin and ERG are in favour?


A clean brexit isn't going to happen @cheekyscrip. Keep up. Parliament won't allow it to. They had a vote to stop it and Bercow exceeded his authority as Speaker of the House (he should be sacked).


----------



## KittenKong

Thought this was satire. This desperation gets more embarrassing by the day.

Why would she think the, "enemy within" will help her get her deal passed? Perhaps she'll try and bribe McCluskey with a knighthood or peerage!

It would be like if Thatcher begged Arthur Scargill for support!


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's really making a mess of things


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Don't confuse no deal with Brexit.


Some are claiming that anything other than no deal isn't Brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Don't confuse no deal with Brexit.


To be fair to scrippy, she did only say 'No deal' brexit, not Brexit as a whole.  Although, of course, the Extreme Brexiteers will always argue that anything other than a No Deal Brexit isn't Brexit at all



KittenKong said:


> Thought this was satire. This desperation gets more embarrassing by the day.
> 
> Why would she think the, "enemy within" will help her get her deal passed? Perhaps she'll try and bribe McCluskey with a knighthood or peerage!
> 
> It would be like if Thatcher begged Arthur Scargill for support!


Wow, I thought so too, but it's all over the major news sites.

Can't say I see her appeal finding any favour. A lot of workers protection legislation is EU based, and the Unions would want to see them fully enshrined in UK law (as in the signed, sealed, delivered kind of enshrined enshrined) before they'd even consider giving consideration. Even then it's unlikely - when politicians talk about 'deregulation' for the sake of competition, it's usually workers rights, health and safety and quality control that are top of the list for making cuts.

Still, I suppose she's laying more groundwork for people to blame in the aftermath...


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's getting really humiliating for her now, having to beg the unions for help. 

If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/11/japanese-bank-blames-brexit-for-move-to-amsterdam


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/11/japanese-bank-blames-brexit-for-move-to-amsterdam


It isn't an avalanche, but when May keeps repeating that her deal 'protects jobs', it always sounds rather hollow to me, since it clearly doesn't.


----------



## Elles

Financial institutions moving out, or setting up additional new premises in Europe was mentioned as a possible down side to brexit a number of times before the referendum. It’s kind of obvious really. People still voted to leave the Eu, so they either don’t see it as a down side, or it wasn’t a priority consideration. 

For myself, I see that many foreign companies set up in Britain have to import staff, some even commuting between mainland Europe and Britain. It would be better for everyone if they set up where the staff are already and where it’s more convenient with less travel/carbon footprint. Whenever it’s mentioned, it makes me think of the Italian couple who came here to work in our financial capital and died in Grenfell. Obviously a mass exodus of employers wouldn’t be good for Britain, but some reshuffling will benefit more than just us. 

I wasn’t in agreement with high Eu tariffs on some Chinese goods encouraging Chinese companies to instead set up in Europe forcing staff to relocate with them either. It’s all a bit of a merry go round imo. Sometimes the money isn’t worth it.

Either way it’s too late now.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It isn't an avalanche, but when May keeps repeating that her deal 'protects jobs', it always sounds rather hollow to me, since it clearly doesn't.


Protects her job that is.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Financial institutions moving out, or setting up additional new premises in Europe was mentioned as a possible down side to brexit a number of times before the referendum. It's kind of obvious really. *People still voted to leave the Eu, so they either don't see it as a down side, or it wasn't a priority consideration. *
> 
> For myself, I see that many foreign companies set up in Britain have to import staff, some even commuting between mainland Europe and Britain. It would be better for everyone if they set up where the staff are already and where it's more convenient with less travel/carbon footprint. Whenever it's mentioned, it makes me think of the Italian couple who came here to work in our financial capital and died in Grenfell. Obviously a mass exodus of employers wouldn't be good for Britain, but some reshuffling will benefit more than just us.
> 
> I wasn't in agreement with high Eu tariffs on some Chinese goods encouraging Chinese companies to instead set up in Europe forcing staff to relocate with them either. It's all a bit of a merry go round imo. Sometimes the money isn't worth it.
> 
> Either way it's too late now.


Plus a number of people probably weren't too interested in the details.

And of course there were some who kept shouting "Project Fear!" whenever a downside like this was mentioned.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> @Snoringbear I have a question for you.
> 
> You're a car manufacturer with plants throughout Europe and the UK remains in the EU. The diesel issue has crippled you. You need to cut down your manufacturing plants.
> Where would you make the cuts ? Eastern Europe or the UK ?


I'm still waiting for a reply to this . Since I gave you an answer when you demanded , I hope you will respond like wise.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I'm still waiting for a reply to this . Since I gave you an answer when you demanded , I hope you will respond like wise.


Must be too busy cleaning the brand new Porsche.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> If it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable.


It would make a great comedy sketch in fact.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Don't confuse no deal with Brexit.


Thought Japanese PM was talking about No Deal?
Or rather stressed that UK should have a deal with EU.

As to clean Brexit ...

With all the lies, the cheating right from the beginning....
Did they say who will benefit from pound devaluation and deregulation?

Big corporations which are global.
Think FTSE100.
Who will go down - FTSE250, small cap, British invested.

Economy is feeling it already - retail showing worst results from 2008.

Without income the government cannot provide for NHS, schools, police, environment etc...

Please read any advice for investors about British markets, look at share prices of even decent small cap stock - the fall in value reflects the expectations that Brexit will cut their profits so already affected.

How hard it is to understand?

Economy translates to hours you will spend in A&E ok?
How safe the street you walking on is.
And so on...

Job loss is not only affecting those who are unemployed but has much wider consequences for economy ...

People who voted for Brexit might have be rightly annoyed by many things, EU related or not.

Just that making the country much worse off to show them is not a good idea at all.

Look again at ERG - how can you trust them?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Must be too busy cleaning the brand new Porsche.


More likely stockpiling them in case of a shortage after a no deal Brexit!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> More likely stockpiling them in case of a shortage after a no deal Brexit!


True, ERG will buy them all.
Pound devaluation will pay for it , good thinking JRM... could see corks popping on 29th March.

How what is beneficial for ERG could be beneficial for common people?

Oxymoron.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387945


That remins me all the English jokes..

Shhhh....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387945


You do know that Baked beans (haricot beans) aren't grown in the UK?


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> True, ERG will buy them all.
> Pound devaluation will pay for it , good thinking JRM... could see corks popping on 29th March.
> 
> How what is beneficial for ERG could be beneficial for common people?
> 
> Oxymoron.


Talk about taking a comment completely out of context and twisting it!

What has JRM and the ERG got to do with it?

@Calvine and I were referring to something completely different.










Confused.com


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 387943


 OMG Brits will be banned from Europe  Err No they wont . What bullocks you post here!


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Must be too busy cleaning the brand new Porsche.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> It would make a great comedy sketch in fact.


I wish they would bring Spitting Image back, with May and Trump it would be brilliant.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Talk about taking a comment completely out of context and twisting it!
> 
> What has JRM and the ERG got to do with it?
> 
> @Calvine and I were referring to something completely different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Confused.com


They will make a pile a buy all the Porsches?

Oh, dear me you didn't go senile overnight?

Just being slightly obstreperous? Prune juice is good for that, but for pit's sake don't ask for explanations in the context!

So back to context and blow by blow...,

1.ERG came up with idea of Brexit.
To get very rich relatively quick.
2. Twisted Cameron's arm to get referendum.
3. Told the people that austerity is not by any means caused by the Tory gov but low wages, queues to the GP , lack of housing or overcrowded schools are the fault of EU immigration, or any immigration, even non-EU because of EU regulations.
4. Added 350 mln on the buses.
5. In case o No Brexit they will make another pile for many more Porsches on devaluation as they are sponsored by big global corporations not the small fry in UK that will lose out.

How it is going to work , devaluations and all that best ask @Satori .

He will explain how he got that Jag.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> You do know that Baked beans (haricot beans) aren't grown in the UK?


So, just toast, then ...


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> So, just toast, then ...


Yes but only a toasted crumb ....... if you're lucky!


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> They will make a pile a buy all the Porsches?
> 
> Oh, dear me you didn't go senile overnight?
> 
> Just being slightly obstreperous? Prune juice is good for that, but for pit's sake don't ask for explanations in the context!
> 
> So back to context and blow by blow...,
> 
> 1.ERG came up with idea of Brexit.
> To get very rich relatively quick.
> 2. Twisted Cameron's arm to get referendum.
> 3. Told the people that austerity is not by any means caused by the Tory gov but low wages, queues to the GP , lack of housing or overcrowded schools are the fault of EU immigration, or any immigration, even non-EU because of EU regulations.
> 4. Added 350 mln on the buses.
> 5. In case o No Brexit they will make another pile for many more Porsches on devaluation as they are sponsored by big global corporations not the small fry in UK that will lose out.
> 
> How it is going to work , devaluations and all that best ask @Satori .
> 
> He will explain how he got that Jag.


Oh Cheeky I despair! I can't take you anywhere can I?

Don't you know by now that it's not necessary to explain to me who the ERG are and what they're about, because she who is always right has pronounced me a rabid ERG lover who's in bed with JRM and his cronies. ............................................

........................... and of course, not forgetting Boris, Trump, Orban, Putin and a few others I can't remember.......

I should be so lucky! NOT!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Oh Cheeky I despair! I can't take you anywhere can I?
> 
> Don't you know by now that it's not necessary to explain to me who the ERG are and what they're about, because she who is always right has pronounced me a rabid ERG lover who's in bed with JRM and his cronies. ............................................
> 
> ........................... and of course, not forgetting Boris, Trump, Orban, Putin and a few others I can't remember.......
> 
> I should be so lucky! NOT!


Take me to Magyar my dear...
I will take care of you, promise :Hilarious

JRM in your bed... Coco Chanel said that when woman reaches certain age she doesn't look into her lover's passport, it might possibly apply in a wider context...
He looks clean enough and possibly has good table manners...and a Porsche.
As to his cronies - I would skip Gove, certain age or not a woman has to draw a line somewhere...


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

About time too ....... just hope they throw the book at him!

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-arrested-over-alleged-incident-involving-anna-soubry-123300198.html


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> I'm still waiting for a reply to this . Since I gave you an answer when you demanded , I hope you will respond like wise.


Yes, I'd follow the example set by Jaguar and Ford.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> You do know that Baked beans (haricot beans) aren't grown in the UK?


I beg to differ, @rona; here is a baked bean tree but not sure if it is in UK. It may be a foreigner.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> I beg to differ, @rona; here is a baked bean tree but not sure if it is in UK. It may be a foreigner.


i suggest you don't eat them


----------



## Magyarmum

Do you think the UK climate's right for growing spaghetti, after all it would make a nice change from a baked bean on a toasted crumb?


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Yes, I'd follow the example set by Jaguar and Ford.


so then remaining in the EU wouldn't make any difference, would it.


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> They will make a pile a buy all the Porsches?
> 
> How it is going to work , devaluations and all that best ask @Satori .
> 
> He will explain how he got that Jag.


Not guilty. I have never owned a Jaguar. I have a British Shorthair and a Tiffanie, though the BSH pulls off a decent impression of a Jaguar in some lights......


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> so then remaining in the EU wouldn't make any difference, would it.


It makes a huge difference as leaving the EU means the UK will be incompatible with JIT production. It will only get worse. Simple business decision.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> It makes a huge difference as leaving the EU means the UK will be incompatible with JIT production. It will only get worse. Simple business decision.


 So to confirm , you'd chose the UK and not Eastern Europe if the UK remains . That was my question .
If my firm was in dire straights I'd stick with the cheapest which I'd doubt would be the remaining UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Not guilty. I have never owned a Jaguar. I have a British Shorthair and a Tiffanie, though the BSH pulls off a decent impression of a Jaguar in some lights......
> 
> View attachment 388004


Two Jaggs!!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't know why remainers are so worried? It looks like they are going to get what they want.  This was a wasted exercise and a waste of money and what happens next will be to.

Oh and TM and everyone in Parliament should be sacked as they are a waste of time and money to.

As everyday passes remainers may get what they want but don't think this would be the end of it. This country is going to be stuck in a void of uncertainity.


----------



## Colliebarmy

we arent leaving
we were NEVER leaving

May will fold, there will be a G.E. .... Corbyn+Sturgeon will form a coalition

There will be a a remain win in a 2nd EU referendum (fixed this time) and Scotlands 2nd own referendum will be a 2nd "no" vote

But Sturgeon will want a 3rd........4th..........5th.............


Democracy died with the winning Leave vote


----------



## Colliebarmy

Snoringbear said:


> It makes a huge difference as leaving the EU means the UK will be incompatible with JIT production. It will only get worse. Simple business decision.


Rubbish... Europe works on JIT as well, I used to transport MB AMG parts from Stourbridge to Paris and Stuttgart ......... so who loses?


----------



## Colliebarmy

Snoringbear said:


> Yes, I'd follow the example set by Jaguar and Ford.


what, sack 6000 and move production to China or wherever labour is cheapest?

like thats never happened pre-Brexirt?


----------



## rona

Colliebarmy said:


> we arent leaving
> we were NEVER leaving
> 
> May will fold, there will be a G.E. .... Corbyn+Sturgeon will form a coalition
> 
> There will be a a remain win in a 2nd EU referendum (fixed this time) and Scotlands 2nd own referendum will be a 2nd "no" vote
> 
> But Sturgeon will want a 3rd........4th..........5th.............
> 
> Democracy died with the winning Leave vote


But at least we could dream for a while


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> Two Jaggs!!!!


My one Jaggsy is better 










One of my favourite photos out of all I've taken


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> But at least we could dream for a while


This is the problem: RL.
Hits us. Always.

It is always nice to dream we can walk away to the sunset and leave all troubles behind.

Then it ends like "Thelma and Louise".

Reality is vastly overrated.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> My one Jaggsy is better
> 
> View attachment 388026
> 
> 
> One of my favourite photos out of all I've taken


Wow! Where was this taken?


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Wow! Where was this taken?


On a photography day on at the Cat Survival Trust last year  I keep meaning to sort through the photos and post a thread...

Jaggsy is a female jaguar, and nearly caused a knicker attack for one of my fellow photographers when we were photographong snow leaopards in the enclosure opposite by silently creeping up behind them and then suddenly giving one of those coughing hunting growls jaguars are famous for 

Just to be clear, I was the other side of the wire fence with the camera lense up against the wire - no way would you go in there with her, she's by far the most dangerous of all the cats they have there.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> This is the problem: RL.
> Hits us. Always.
> 
> It is always nice to dream we can walk away to the sunset and leave all troubles behind.
> 
> Then it ends like "Thelma and Louise".
> 
> Reality is vastly overrated.


Nothing is ever really over, there's always something .


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> we arent leaving
> we were NEVER leaving
> 
> May will fold, there will be a G.E. .... Corbyn+Sturgeon will form a coalition
> 
> There will be a a remain win in a 2nd EU referendum (fixed this time) and Scotlands 2nd own referendum will be a 2nd "no" vote
> 
> But Sturgeon will want a 3rd........4th..........5th.............
> 
> Democracy died with the winning Leave vote


The thing is, what Brexit actually meant was never clarified at the time. What you wanted or expected might differ from others. Nevertheless, Theresa May insists she's delivering the Brexit you voted for yet you're not happy?

My argument in favour of a PV is, not only those that have changed their minds vote a different way to what they did in 2016, including whether to back Theresa May's deal or leave without a deal yet not one Brexiter wants the option of another vote, so why argue against the May deal then?

Let's face it: No deal is not an option, nor is reversing Brexit as far as parliament is concerned. Supporters of No deal or Remain are going to be disappointed if they believe either will happen.

That leaves May's deal most Remainers and Brexiters don't like, so not many will be happy. Then, the Tories always were the party for the few.

I think May will either postpone the Parliamentary vote again next week or ignore a defeat, then quietly implement her Brexit plan, "In the national interest", at the last minute when it would be too late for Parliament to do anything about it.

Now, no one knows for sure this would actually happen, but she's safe for at least another year so she would probably get away with doing that.

It's most unlikely May will fold and a Corbyn/Sturgeon coalition will never happen, for a start Corbyn is a Brexiter which would be a major obstacle for a start.

The irony is, if the UK cancelled Brexit they wouldn't be the urgent need for a Scottish Independence referendum. It probably would lose under those circumstances.

A different matter with Scotland being forced out of the EU with Holyrood powers reverting back to Westminster. That's most undemocratic seeing the SNP, not the Tories run the Scottish Parliament and of course the remain vote in 2016.

Forcing them to comply with the will of England and Wales as suggested by some Southern England based Brexiters here won't bring support for Brexit. Perhaps they've forgotten when Thatcher implemented the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK!

I agree democracy did die in June 2016.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Who's suggested that half a dozen idiots have influenced anyone into anything?


Chris Grayling.



Elles said:


> Apart from the usual people using it to tar everyone who even thought of voting leave with the same brush of course. Who is using it to pretend that it's preventing a people's vote?


Chris Grayling.



Elles said:


> Caroline Lucas wants to stay in the Eu, she doesn't want brexit, so why would she hash tag it, as though she has some kind of alternative Brexit to that of extremists?


She doesn't want it because its clearly a complete and utter shambles which will have serious consequences for the millions of people and the environment. This is NOT what the brexiters promised us,



AlexPed2393 said:


> I dispute this
> 
> _The government has failed to do enough to provide safe routes to Britain for refugees in line with our moral obligations as one of the richest countries of the world. The scheme to resettle 20,000 Syrian refugees over four years, announced in 2015, was welcome. But why not more, and why not refugees from other conflict-ridden countries?_


I don't see how you can dispute the government failure to provide a safe routes for refugees to Britain when its fact. But hey ho.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Safe routes to Britain, so you're saying we should spend taxpayers money on making it easier for illegal immigrants to exploit the refugee crisis? because lets be honest it will happen.


I'm saying we should help desperate people many of whom are fleeing horrors we couldn't begin to imagine. Do you think we should continue to let the m drowned in the med? Where has our humanity gone?



AlexPed2393 said:


> Resettle 20,000 syrian refugees over 4 years, yes thats great but then "why not more" oh jolly lets just allow everyone who is hard done by into the country, the whole of middle africa, the whole of the middle east, poverty ridden india, the slums of south africa, the caravan in south america.


Why not more? Because we can & its not only our moral duty but our legal obligation to. We have helped to displace millions of them - do we just wash our hands of them now?



AlexPed2393 said:


> I like to have two scoops of coffee in my morning drink "but why not more" because I might need an emergency toilet break later in the day


What a superficial comparison. We are talking about the lives of the most desperate people on the planet.



AlexPed2393 said:


> I was making a point as to saying "but why not more" in this context, can also translate into lets help everyone and allow every displaced person or refugee into the UK.


I suspect only to those who have fallen for the fear mongering would translate it this way.



AlexPed2393 said:


> So this image is a total lie? and the big one?


In that image I see several thousand desperate people fleeing extreme violence & poverty. What do you see exactly??



AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm simply extrapolating the "but why not more" statement. We can help a select few but we are a densely populated island with a struggling health service and plenty of other things wrong that we need to sort out. Before we try and help everyone that knocks on our door in calais or elsewhere


Your blame is misplaced. Tory austerity is crippling our NHS & public services. And brexit will bring us austerity on steriods! The right wing in this country and the USA are exploiting anxiety about immigrants and refugees for their own aims whilst they dismantle the state and erode our rights. Its the oldest trick in the book, please don't fall for it Alex.



Arnie83 said:


> Fair comment, but I don't think it's an argument against more being done.
> 
> I would like to see more done to help the world's refugees, especially when the UK is not blameless in their creation. By the same token I don't think we should immediately welcome everyone in.
> 
> I would - agreeing with you I suspect - want to see actual numbers argued, agreed and stated, with plans for what 'letting them in' means in terms of support, preparations, costs, etc. It's difficult to do, no doubt, but we shouldn't close down the debate by claiming that those who are asking for more to be done are in effect suggesting that there should be no limit to our generosity.
> 
> Probably getting off the Brexit question though, since May's Deal, No Deal, or choosing to Remain after all has no immediate effect on our treatment of refugees.


Here are some facts about refugees Arnie. We don't welcome everyone in , they are processed - https://www.refugee-action.org.uk/about/facts-about-refugees/

Javid, just like Trump, is whipping up anti refugee sentiment for political gain. Summed up by David Lammy:
_
The 1951 Geneva UN Refugee Convention was signed in the wake of the atrocity of refugee Jews fleeing, tyranny genocide and war in Europe. "Never again " the world said and on the toss of a coin @*sajidjavid* turns his back on those claiming Asylum lining up with the likes of Trump.

Make no mistake, this is not in response to genuine concern for human life. This is @sajidjavid imitating Donald Trump's "migrant caravan" manufactured emergency to whip up fear before the Brexit vote. Desperate and cynical_



Colliebarmy said:


> we arent leaving
> we were NEVER leaving
> 
> May will fold, there will be a G.E. .... Corbyn+Sturgeon will form a coalition
> 
> There will be a a remain win in a 2nd EU referendum (fixed this time) and Scotlands 2nd own referendum will be a 2nd "no" vote
> 
> But Sturgeon will want a 3rd........4th..........5th.............
> 
> Democracy died with the winning Leave vote


Parliament is taking control, Isn't that what you voted for?


----------



## noushka05

*Channel 4 News*‏Verified account @Channel4News Jan 11

"No wonder it is being called an unforgivable act of intergenerational theft." Green Party co-leader @CarolineLucas says more than 70 per cent of young voters backed Remain in the EU referendum - and there should be a second poll.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083784148026830848


----------



## noushka05

LOL

*David Schneider*‏:
A reminder that the 2016 goal of Parliament being sovereign no longer applies. From now on, Parliament being sovereign is known as "a coup".


----------



## KittenKong

Little sympathy, they voted for it (though thoughts for those that didn't and the ones who realised they made a mistake).

The Tories don't give a s*** about anyone except themselves.


----------



## noushka05

I fear someone else is going to hurt by these idiots.

So, after speaking at today's @pplsassembly rally, I was mobbed by fascists trying to swing punches and who spat down my neck (I know right, yuck, fascist spit!) Thanks to the comrades who kept them at bay. Again, not intimidated by these fash, we are going to defeat you 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084120754789199872


----------



## noushka05

For anyone who hasn't heard David Lammys barnstorming speech the other day. Here is the transcript and video.

(video)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083442098551033857


_Most MPs must now recognise in private but do not say it in public._

_Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. A deception that will hurt most of those people it promised to help._

_A dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse. A campaign won on false promises and lies_

_Vote Leave and Leave EU both broke the law. *Russian interference *is *beyond reasonable doubt*._

_And by now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has become unstuck._

_*Brexit will not enrich our NHS, it will impoverish *it._

_Our *trade deal *with *Donald Trump* will see the *US corporations* privatise and dismantle the *NHS *one bed at a time._

_And even those promises on immigration which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie._

_
After Brexit immigration will go up not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries like India and China, they will ask for three things: visas, visas and more visas.

And they will get them because we will be weak._
.

_Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns; the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they've been left behind.

I say we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let's tell them the truth. You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures.

*Nigel Farage* and *Boris Johnson* exploited the same *prejudice *to win votes. Shame on them. *Immigrants have not *taken your jobs, our schools and colleges failed to give you the skill_s.
_
*Hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists*, because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone.

*You cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because of Mohammed down the road who moved it. And wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country*.

*Blame us. Blame Westminster*. Do not blame Brussels for our own country's mistakes and do not be angry at us for telling you the truth_.

*Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.

*


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> For anyone who hasn't heard David Lammys barnstorming speech the other day. Here is the transcript and video.
> 
> (video)
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083442098551033857
> 
> 
> _Most MPs must now recognise in private but do not say it in public._
> 
> _Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. A deception that will hurt most of those people it promised to help._
> 
> _A dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse. A campaign won on false promises and lies_
> 
> _Vote Leave and Leave EU both broke the law. *Russian interference *is *beyond reasonable doubt*._
> 
> _And by now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has become unstuck._
> 
> _*Brexit will not enrich our NHS, it will impoverish *it._
> 
> _Our *trade deal *with *Donald Trump* will see the *US corporations* privatise and dismantle the *NHS *one bed at a time._
> 
> _And even those promises on immigration which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie._
> 
> _
> After Brexit immigration will go up not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries like India and China, they will ask for three things: visas, visas and more visas.
> 
> And they will get them because we will be weak._
> .
> 
> _Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns; the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they've been left behind.
> 
> I say we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let's tell them the truth. You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures.
> 
> *Nigel Farage* and *Boris Johnson* exploited the same *prejudice *to win votes. Shame on them. *Immigrants have not *taken your jobs, our schools and colleges failed to give you the skill_s.
> _
> *Hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists*, because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone.
> 
> *You cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because of Mohammed down the road who moved it. And wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country*.
> 
> *Blame us. Blame Westminster*. Do not blame Brussels for our own country's mistakes and do not be angry at us for telling you the truth_.
> 
> *Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.
> 
> *


Lammy is one who has grown in stature during the last 3 years, while many have diminished.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Lammy is one who has grown in stature during the last 3 years, while many have diminished.


True. I hadn't even heard of him prior to brexit


----------



## noushka05

*James O'B*

2017: Remainer: It's going to be awful 
Brexiter: Rubbish. It's going to be brilliant

2018: Remainer: It's going to be awful 
Brexiter: No it isn't. You just have to believe more

2019: Remainer: It's going to be awful 
Brexiter. We voted for awful. We knew we were voting for awful

..


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> So to confirm , you'd chose the UK and not Eastern Europe if the UK remains . That was my question .
> If my firm was in dire straights I'd stick with the cheapest which I'd doubt would be the remaining UK.


Sorry, I misread your question, missed the remaining thing for some reason.

In the prospect of leaving, I would cut down on UK production due to JIT uncertainties. If we end up remaining, some of the damage would be done, which may end with further losses once current models run out.


----------



## Elles

@noushka05 Chris Grayling hadn't said anything when I posted my comment. He is now saying that if there is no Brexit, there'll be a surge to the far right in politics, as there is in other countries. Maybe there will, maybe there won't. Brexit isn't about far right politics, it's about leaving the Eu. No one has said we should leave the Eu because of threats from half a dozen thugs though, even Chris Grayling. We're leaving the Eu because people voted for it.

I would think there are minority groups who are watching the spitting and shouting and thinking now maybe something will be done about it. They've suffered it from people like those for years. Politicians have often come under attack, it's nothing to do with Brexit, it's to do with the mentality of those kind of peeople.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Sorry, I misread your question, missed the remaining thing for some reason.
> 
> In the prospect of leaving, I would cut down on UK production due to JIT uncertainties. If we end up remaining, some of the damage would be done, which may end with further losses once current models run out.


Yeah easily done . Thanks for giving an honest reply.
I understand how angry people feel and its a shame that this has caused divides , Whatever happens , I can't see these rifts healing . I think that worries me more than Brexit itself.


----------



## Elles

Btw it’s about 6 people. They’re being promoted and sensationalised for a Remain agenda. Every ordinary person, whether they voted leave, or remain, are totally disgusted by their behaviour and think they should be arrested, which the main perp now has.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Channel 4 News*‏Verified account @Channel4News Jan 11
> 
> "No wonder it is being called an unforgivable act of intergenerational theft." Green Party co-leader @CarolineLucas says more than 70 per cent of young voters backed Remain in the EU referendum - and there should be a second poll.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083784148026830848


Here we go again.

If they had all got off their arses and voted, they'd be able to complain.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I fear someone else is going to hurt by these idiots.
> 
> So, after speaking at today's @pplsassembly rally, I was mobbed by fascists trying to swing punches and who spat down my neck (I know right, yuck, fascist spit!) Thanks to the comrades who kept them at bay. Again, not intimidated by these fash, we are going to defeat you
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084120754789199872


Comrades?


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> For anyone who hasn't heard David Lammys barnstorming speech the other day. Here is the transcript and video.
> 
> (video)
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083442098551033857
> 
> 
> _Most MPs must now recognise in private but do not say it in public._
> 
> _Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. A deception that will hurt most of those people it promised to help._
> 
> _A dangerous fantasy which will make every problem it claims to solve worse. A campaign won on false promises and lies_
> 
> _Vote Leave and Leave EU both broke the law. *Russian interference *is *beyond reasonable doubt*._
> 
> _And by now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has become unstuck._
> 
> _*Brexit will not enrich our NHS, it will impoverish *it._
> 
> _Our *trade deal *with *Donald Trump* will see the *US corporations* privatise and dismantle the *NHS *one bed at a time._
> 
> _And even those promises on immigration which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie._
> 
> _
> After Brexit immigration will go up not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries like India and China, they will ask for three things: visas, visas and more visas.
> 
> And they will get them because we will be weak._
> .
> 
> _Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns; the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel they've been left behind.
> 
> I say we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let's tell them the truth. You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures.
> 
> *Nigel Farage* and *Boris Johnson* exploited the same *prejudice *to win votes. Shame on them. *Immigrants have not *taken your jobs, our schools and colleges failed to give you the skill_s.
> _
> *Hospitals are not crumbling because of health tourists*, because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone.
> 
> *You cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because of Mohammed down the road who moved it. And wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country*.
> 
> *Blame us. Blame Westminster*. Do not blame Brussels for our own country's mistakes and do not be angry at us for telling you the truth_.
> 
> *Be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie.
> 
> *


And again. He didn't read my links either. Plus he is also promoting immigration and refugees as a bad thing. Now threatening more immigrants if we brexit.  If immigration has so enriched our country, why is more immigration such a threat? Another playing the immigrant card, but whilst pretending not to.


----------



## Happy Paws2

This is getting very boring :Bored we aren't hearing anything new so why keep banging your heads against a brick wall.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> This is getting very boring :Bored we aren't hearing anything new so why keep banging your heads against a brick wall.


It passes the time til something does actually happen


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> True. I hadn't even heard of him prior to brexit


I had, but he didn't receive much publicity outside his constituency, rather like JR-M who I'd never heard of before the referendum.

Lammy should be Labour leader and PM as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some remainers like to just...










and


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Some remainers like to just...
> 
> View attachment 388078
> 
> 
> and
> View attachment 388079


YES....They are almost as BAD as the leavers, they have won so why don't they just SHUT UP!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> It passes the time til something does actually happen


and is more interesting than twiddling your thumbs!


----------



## Arnie83

Shrill Brexiteer voices continue to tell us that it would be "disrespectful" to the British people if we do not leave the EU on March 29; that it would be a "betrayal" to propose another referendum. What nonsense they speak - yet another pithy slogan from those who fear that the victory they obtained two years ago, by such dubious tactics, is slipping from their grasp. How can asking the people to make a decision based on facts ever be a betrayal of democracy? Facts that, as each month passes, further disprove the fantasies that were once so shamefully peddled.​
Well said, John Major. (In today's Sunday Times.)


----------



## Elles

Theresa May voted remain and she’s the biggest block to a second referendum. Jeremy Corbyn is also anti.

Most Leavers on here don’t seem to mind generally.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Theresa May voted remain and she's the biggest block to a second referendum. Jeremy Corbyn is also anti.
> 
> Most Leavers on here don't seem to mind generally.


May - it shows no one wants her Deal.
Corbyn- he wants election and PM seat.


----------



## Elles

They are the people who could actually make it happen. Someone like JRM, or Farage saying it would be a betrayal, if they are, isn't really that important, it's what people who can bring it about think that counts. So sorry, but John Major is just getting on the bandwagon of brexiteer blaming, when brexiteers actually don't have the power to prevent it. Pretty much everyone is saying that's the reason there isn't a second referendum, when it's not true, it's just an excuse. @cheekyscrip hit the nail on the head.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ote-deal-eu-parliament-election-a8687056.html


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## KittenKong

A good one.










Since when has her deal been the "Will of the people"? Did people who voted leave vote for her deal? She wasn't even Prime Minister at the time!!!


----------



## KittenKong

It's not just "foreigners", hated by so many Brexiters that will suffer. "British" people will too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-eu-ahead-brexit-deal-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> They are the people who could actually make it happen. Someone like JRM, or Farage saying it would be a betrayal, if they are, isn't really that important, it's what people who can bring it about think that counts. So sorry, but John Major is just getting on the bandwagon of brexiteer blaming, when brexiteers actually don't have the power to prevent it. Pretty much everyone is saying that's the reason there isn't a second referendum, when it's not true, it's just an excuse. @cheekyscrip hit the nail on the head.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ote-deal-eu-parliament-election-a8687056.html


On my reading of his quote, John Major isn't blaming anyone for preventing a further referendum; he simply countered the silly argument, made by a number of Brexiteers - including, now, May - that it would be a betrayal.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> A good one.
> 
> View attachment 388119
> 
> 
> Since when has her deal been the "Will of the people"? Did people who voted leave vote for her deal? She wasn't even Prime Minister at the time!!!


If ever there was something that trampled all over 'democracy' it was the shameful prosecution of the 2016 referendum.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 388114


[
I thought Corbyn handled himself very well, Marr was a pratt this morning with both his interviews he was asked a question didn't give them chance to answer, then asked the same questions again. I liked Marr but today I think his losing the plot.


----------



## Magyarmum

*


KittenKong said:



View attachment 388120
It's not just "foreigners", hated by so many Brexiters that will suffer. "British" people will too.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-eu-ahead-brexit-deal-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb

Click to expand...

Sigh !!!!!! *

We've had this conversation numerous times and it's getting booooooooooooooring!

The ultimate decision about what happens to UK citizens living in the EU doesn't rest with the British government but with each of the 27 EU member states and will most likely be different in each country.

The latest briefing paper from the Government about State Pensions

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7894

(read the PDF which is included in the article)

Also a very realistic assessment from The Migration Policy Institute

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/after-divorce-british-families-living-eu-27-post-brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 388130


The point is that The Guardian can't sell a paper with blank pages so it's got to think of something and make it as sensational as possible, even though it's been done to death god knows how many times before!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> The point is that The Guardian can't sell a paper with blank pages so it's got to think of something and make it as sensational as possible, even though it's been done to death god knows how many times before!


Oh I agree that the arguements that are currently being presented have been done to death, nothing has really changed since 24th June 2016, remainers seem to be on a loop repeating themselves. Which by the way is borring.

Let's see what happens on Tuesday with the Vote. Corbyn thinks he will be PM Wednesday :Hilarious

My dad is still here and his opinion is this... He voted remain. Yes you heard correctly remain. . He said he thinks the MP's are being petty as the UK voted leave and said they should either accept the withdrawal agreement or accept no deal and just get on with it instead of messing around creating a bigger mess. He doesn't want another referendum as he believes it is just going to be a waste of money and time. He said the EU are giving all they will give and never really wanted the UK to join. He remembers the first time around and the 1975 referendum. He said that the EU Leaders at the time never wanted the UK to join the Common Market or the EEC.

He told me the UK has voted to leave and that is what should happen. No half in half out nonesense like the UK has been for the last 40 odd years because the EEC or Common Market never wanted the UK in it because if they did the UK wouldn't have been left half in and half out of the EU.

So there you go....


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 388120
> It's not just "foreigners", hated by so many Brexiters that will suffer. "British" people will too.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-eu-ahead-brexit-deal-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb


Which is what I said when Europeans were having hysterics about having to pay 65 quid each if they don't already have status in the U.K. their 65 quid also means they have rights in the U.K. and Europe. Unlike British ex pats who currently are guaranteed little to nothing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Which is what I said when Europeans were having hysterics about having to pay 65 quid each if they don't already have status in the U.K. their 65 quid also means they have rights in the U.K. and Europe. Unlike British ex pats who currently are guaranteed little to nothing.


Well you can blame May for that for not getting her act together over the last 2 1/2 years, no one knows what the hell she wants then or now. How can they vote on such rubbish.


----------



## Elles

Tuesday. Won’t it be weird if they do get a vote and vote the deal through?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> And again. He didn't read my links either. *Plus he is also promoting immigration and refugees as a bad thing*. Now threatening more immigrants if we brexit.  If immigration has so enriched our country, why is more immigration such a threat? Another playing the immigrant card, but whilst pretending not to.


Apologies, I'm curious as to which bit you interpret as meaning that?

I see the reference to immigrants enhancing the UK, a reasonably stated dismantling of a selection of 'immigrants steal our jobs/homes/NHS appointments' layman beliefs long shown to be statistically false, and a statement that Brexit will not help efforts to control immigration but hinder them, as very liberal visa arrangements will be one of the things at the very top of the demand list for countries like India and China when it comes to negotiating trade deals (if memory serves, India is already on the record about that).

Personally I don't see that last statement as him siding with those who wish to curb immigration, rather as an observation that whilst one of the key issues for many Brexit voters was wanting more control over immigration, Brexit itself will probably leave us less able to do so.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Apologies, as very liberal visa arrangements will be one of the things at the very top of the demand list for countries like India and China when it comes to negotiating trade deals (if memory serves, India is already on the record about that.


Is this a bad, or good thing?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Is this a bad, or good thing?


That's a bit of an unfair question, logic wise. I don't think anyone would argue that uncontrolled immigration is beneficial, but it cannot be denied that over the centuries immigration has enriched the UK in many ways - culturally, skills wise, cuisine etc. It can never be a black and white issue.

However, I do not believe sparking a debate on the merits of immigration (which is a massive topic in it's own right) was his intent with that point. Rather, he highlights a basic logic trail which does not seem to have been widely considered:


More control of UK borders was a key votewinner for Brexit (despite it being something which we could have done plenty about anyway, but that's beside the point)

However, after Brexit large countries (especially ones we rely upon for key imports, such as food) can be expected to demand (and in some cases are alread on record about this) much freer immigration rights than they currently enjoy as part of any trade deal they will agree to.

As a small nation dependent on imports in many critical areas, we'll not really be in a position to refuse if we want any kind of remotely favourable trade deal within a reasonable timeframe
Therefore, there is a very good probability we will have significantly less control over immigration from key areas post-Brexit, not more.
Therefore, promoting Brexit as a way of reducing/better controlling immigration was not a valid promise, just a vote winning tactic.
I don't think reading any more into than that could be overly justified, though others are free to disagree with my personal assessment, of course


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> That's a bit of an unfair question, logic wise. I don't think anyone would argue that uncontrolled immigration is beneficial, but it cannot be denied that over the centuries immigration has enriched the UK in many ways - culturally, skills wise, cuisine etc. It can never be a black and white issue.
> 
> However, I do not believe sparking a debate on the merits of immigration (which is a massive topic in it's own right) was his intent with that point. Rather, he highlights a basic logic trail which does not seem to have been widely considered:
> 
> 
> More control of UK borders was a key votewinner for Brexit (despite it being something which we could have done plenty about anyway, but that's beside the point)
> 
> However, after Brexit large countries (especially ones we rely upon for key imports, such as food) can be expected to demand (and in some cases are alread on record about this) much freer immigration rights than they currently enjoy as part of any trade deal they will agree to.
> 
> As a small nation dependent on imports in many critical areas, we'll not really be in a position to refuse if we want any kind of remotely favourable trade deal within a reasonable timeframe
> Therefore, there is a very good probability we will have significantly less control over immigration from key areas post-Brexit, not more.
> Therefore, promoting Brexit as a way of reducing/better controlling immigration was not a valid promise, just a vote winning tactic.
> I don't think reading any more into than that could be overly justified, though others are free to disagree with my personal assessment, of course


But it will be non EU immigration replacement, so exactly like predicted EU workers replaced by non EU workers.

By the way I am one of the evil EU immigrants , 22 years and just today one of my friends sent me this
STATE PENSION - keep this going please

Read and pass on:
Dear Prime Minister 
I wish to ask you a Question:- "Is This True?"
I refer to the Pension Reality Check.

Are you aware of the following ?

The British Government provides the following financial assistance:-

BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
(bearing in mind they worked hard and paid their Income Tax and National
Insurance contributions to the British Government all their working life)
Weekly allowance: £106.00

IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
(No Income Tax and National Insurance contribution whatsoever)
Weekly allowance: £250.00

BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
Weekly Spouse Allowance: £25.00

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
Weekly Spouse Allowance: £225.00

BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
Additional Weekly Hardship Allowance: £0.00

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
Additional Weekly Hardship Allowance: £100.00

A British old age pensioner is no less hard up than an illegal immigrant/refugee yet receives nothing

BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
TOTAL YEARLY BENEFIT: £6,000

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
TOTAL YEARLY BENEFIT: £29,900

Please read all and then forward to all your contacts so that we can lobby for a decent state pension.
After all, the average pensioner has paid taxes and contributed to the growth of this country for the last 40 to 60 years.
Sad isn't it? Surely it's about time we put our own people first.

Please have the guts to forward this. or copy an paste

I JUST DID!

Lovely isn't it?

Just reminded him that I am an immigrant.

I know how immigrants , especially those who built their life in Britain for decades feel now.

Rather unloved and uncomfortable.


----------



## Elles

I think all that was discredited @cheekyscrip People can't just come to Britain and claim welfare.

Refugees who need help are a different matter of course. Why should someone who suffered huge trauma and loss, claiming asylum here or anywhere else, be expected to have made some kind of contribution? Why would I object to some of my taxes being used to help these people if they need it. Not that all are poor anyway. Teachers, doctors, skilled professionals, are also refugees from war. They aren't all beggars and scroungers. 

The point I'm trying to make is when Remainers go on about immigration, how it can be controlled inside the Eu and now how many more 'foreigners' will come here, if we leave the Eu, it's feeding into the anti immigration sentiment, just as much as brexit posters ( eta By posters I mean the propaganda images, not people posting on the internet.)


----------



## kimthecat

The BBC news tonight , someone was saying that Brussels are pragmatic , if it ends in a no deal she thinks they will offer more . They don't want a no deal either.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think all that was discredited @cheekyscrip People can't just come to Britain and claim welfare.


You, I and scrippy know that, but plenty of people still believe and share these ridiculous posts around. The comments on them usually read like something out the Daily Fail.



Elles said:


> Refugees who need help are a different matter of course. Why should someone who suffered huge trauma and loss, claiming asylum here or anywhere else, be expected to have made some kind of contribution? Why would I object to some of my taxes being used to help these people if they need it. Not that all are poor anyway. Teachers, doctors, skilled professionals, are also refugees from war. They aren't all beggars and scroungers.


Again, _we _know that, but some have a stubbornly pre-defined notion of what a 'genuine refugee' should look like, and that notion doesn't usually include anyone who looks as if they might have a modern lifestyle before war broke out. Number one comment I've personally seen by 'refugee critics'? "They have smartphones, they can't possibly be real refugees!" The logic that if you are a moderately successful individual/family in one of the many countries that was relatively prosperous pre-war, you are likely to have a smartphone of some kind and are also almost guaranteed to take it with you when you flee so you can at least try and keep in contact with your family and friends, seems to completely pass them by.



Elles said:


> The point I'm trying to make is when Remainers go on about immigration, how it can be controlled inside the Eu and now how many more 'foreigners' will come here, if we leave the Eu, it's feeding into the anti immigration sentiment, just as much as brexit posters ( eta By posters I mean the propaganda images, not people posting on the internet.)


Curious now, if, due to anti-immigration sentiment, it's not adviseable to simply discuss that the leave campaign was almost certainly very misleading about the impact of Brexit on immigration, which aspects of immigration would you suggest can safely be discussed with no risk of triggering anti-immigrant sentiment? Can't think of any off the top of my head, though that may be the fact it's stupid o'clock...


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> The BBC news tonight , someone was saying that Brussels are pragmatic , if it ends in a no deal she thinks they will offer more . They don't want a no deal either.


I heard that a few days ago.

This article was also in The Independent which I thinks reflects how unhappy the EU are about the UK quitting. As far as I can see The Independent was the only paper reporting this.

*More than 100 MEPs from every corner of EU sign heartfelt letter asking British people to reconsider Brexit*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-peoples-vote-second-referendum-a8723066.html



cheekyscrip said:


> But it will be non EU immigration replacement, so exactly like predicted EU workers replaced by non EU workers.
> 
> By the way I am one of the evil EU immigrants , 22 years and just today one of my friends sent me this
> STATE PENSION - keep this going please
> 
> Read and pass on:
> Dear Prime Minister
> I wish to ask you a Question:- "Is This True?"
> I refer to the Pension Reality Check.
> 
> Are you aware of the following ?
> 
> The British Government provides the following financial assistance:-
> 
> BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
> (bearing in mind they worked hard and paid their Income Tax and National
> Insurance contributions to the British Government all their working life)
> Weekly allowance: £106.00
> 
> IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
> (No Income Tax and National Insurance contribution whatsoever)
> Weekly allowance: £250.00
> 
> BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
> Weekly Spouse Allowance: £25.00
> 
> ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
> Weekly Spouse Allowance: £225.00
> 
> BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
> Additional Weekly Hardship Allowance: £0.00
> 
> ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
> Additional Weekly Hardship Allowance: £100.00
> 
> A British old age pensioner is no less hard up than an illegal immigrant/refugee yet receives nothing
> 
> BRITISH OLD AGED PENSIONER
> TOTAL YEARLY BENEFIT: £6,000
> 
> ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/REFUGEES LIVING IN BRITAIN
> TOTAL YEARLY BENEFIT: £29,900
> 
> Please read all and then forward to all your contacts so that we can lobby for a decent state pension.
> After all, the average pensioner has paid taxes and contributed to the growth of this country for the last 40 to 60 years.
> Sad isn't it? Surely it's about time we put our own people first.
> 
> Please have the guts to forward this. or copy an paste
> 
> I JUST DID!
> 
> Lovely isn't it?
> 
> Just reminded him that I am an immigrant.
> 
> I know how immigrants , especially those who built their life in Britain for decades feel now.
> 
> Rather unloved and uncomfortable.


Please read this as it gives a very different picture about payments to asylum seekers/refugees to the one you've been led to believe!

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> :Smuggrin:Hilarious


While I agree with your point, I don't agree with the way you have put it.

It's very KKesque


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> While I agree with your point, I don't agree with the way you have put it.
> 
> It's very KKesque


I shall remove it 
You're right and I will put my sensible head back on.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> If they had all got off their arses and voted, they'd be able to complain.


Millions of young people, now eligible, were denied a vote, yet they will be the ones to live with the impact the longest. Its so unfair.



MilleD said:


> Comrades?


Does the use of that word concern you MD? And if so, why?


----------



## noushka05

_A no-deal Brexit is not "suicide" "survivable" and better than Dunkirk, says Liam Fox.

What a sell. #r4today_

*.................................................................................................................................................*

GUIDE TO BREXIT PROGRESS:

Easiest deal in history

Sunlit uplands

They need us more than we need them

No deal is better than a bad deal

It's not the end of the world

There's a possibility we may survive it

(Adam Beinkov. David Schneider)


----------



## noushka05

*James Felton*‏:

2016: "There will be no downsides to Brexit only considerable upsides"

2019: "You will have enough calories to survive"

_'An unpublished government report insists Britons will have "enough calories" to survive such disruption, but some fresh foods would quickly run out._

https://www.ft.com/content/3eb997ca-14c9-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

.............................


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I had, but he didn't receive much publicity outside his constituency, rather like JR-M who I'd never heard of before the referendum.
> 
> Lammy should be Labour leader and PM as far as I'm concerned.


Lammy has been really impressive on brexit also hes a passionate defender of minorities. I like him A LOT. Where I feel hes been a big let down, is his support for the Heathrow expansion however.



KittenKong said:


> A good one.
> 
> View attachment 388119
> 
> 
> Since when has her deal been the "Will of the people"? Did people who voted leave vote for her deal? She wasn't even Prime Minister at the time!!!


May has proved herself to be a serial liar, shes on par with Donald Trump!

Peston again - nailing our inept government. LOL

_What is extraordinary about the Brexit talks is that 27 EU countries, and a parliament and a bureaucracy have negotiated with a single voice - under the leadership of @MichelBarnier - and the UK has negotiated as if it was the equivalent of 27 or perhaps 600 dissonant voices

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh I agree that the arguements that are currently being presented have been done to death, nothing has really changed since 24th June 2016, remainers seem to be on a loop repeating themselves. Which by the way is borring.
> 
> Let's see what happens on Tuesday with the Vote. Corbyn thinks he will be PM Wednesday :Hilarious
> 
> My dad is still here and his opinion is this... He voted remain. Yes you heard correctly remain. . He said he thinks the MP's are being petty as the UK voted leave and said they should either accept the withdrawal agreement or accept no deal and just get on with it instead of messing around creating a bigger mess. He doesn't want another referendum as he believes it is just going to be a waste of money and time. He said the EU are giving all they will give and never really wanted the UK to join. He remembers the first time around and the 1975 referendum. He said that the EU Leaders at the time never wanted the UK to join the Common Market or the EEC.
> 
> He told me the UK has voted to leave and that is what should happen. No half in half out nonesense like the UK has been for the last 40 odd years because the EEC or Common Market never wanted the UK in it because if they did the UK wouldn't have been left half in and half out of the EU.
> 
> So there you go....


Any chance your Dad could join PF? Actually, thinking about it, he sounds too sensible to become a member.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> @noushka05 Chris Grayling hadn't said anything when I posted my comment. He is now saying that if there is no Brexit, there'll be a surge to the far right in politics, as there is in other countries. Maybe there will, maybe there won't. Brexit isn't about far right politics, it's about leaving the Eu. No one has said we should leave the Eu because of threats from half a dozen thugs though, even Chris Grayling. We're leaving the Eu because people voted for it.
> 
> I would think there are minority groups who are watching the spitting and shouting and thinking now maybe something will be done about it. They've suffered it from people like those for years. Politicians have often come under attack, it's nothing to do with Brexit, it's to do with the mentality of those kind of peeople.


I know he hadn't 

The leave campaign, right wing politicians & their mates in the media have emboldened the fascists.

(a few pertinent quotes as I'm pushed for time,)

_
The sheer hypocritical balls of a government that's done all they can to make this country intolerant and nationalistic - Go Home vans, hostile environment, Windrush, "swarms of migrants" - saying that blocking Brexit will make this country intolerant & nationalistic.

2016: We have to Brexit. It will be brilliant for Britain.

2019: We have to Brexit. Or fascists will get crosser.

The far right flourishes when it is *not* resisted & frustrated. If we've learned anything from recent & more distant history, it is surely this. 
On the other hand, Chris Grayling argues that we shouldn't do things fascists won't like because fascists won't like it.

It's fascinating how the argument for Brexit has changed from "sunlit uplands" and "Brexit dividends" to "do Brexit or the neo Nazis will get angry."
Is that the best this brain dead government can come up with? 
Appeasement didn't work before and won't work now. _
_

(Schneider. O'Brien. Esler)_


----------



## Elles

Link where someone said ‘or the Neo Nazis will get angry’.

Other MPs are saying Chris Grayling’s comments are an embarrassment and pretty stupid. Now Remainers are jumping on his comments and hinting that we shouldn’t brexit as it appeases the fascists. 

Brexit should have nothing to do with them. We should brexit because people vote for it.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.c...ed-roll-out-of-universal-credit-dwp-confirms/

Just in case anyone believes the Tories have turned over a new leaf.

The only reforms to their flagship Universal Credit policy is to make it worse than it already is.

Well, survival of the fittest in other words...

Should be the Tory motif that, "Survival of the Fittest".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> Any chance your Dad could join PF? Actually, thinking about it, he sounds too sensible to become a member.


No he won't join pf. He said what he said and that is that and there is no debate over what he said as he doesn't want a debate.


----------



## AlexPed2393

stockwellcat. said:


> No he won't join pf. He said what he said and that is that and there is no debate over what he said as he doesn't want a debate.


That man talks some serious sense


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The point I'm trying to make is when Remainers go on about immigration, how it can be controlled inside the Eu and now how many more 'foreigners' will come here, if we leave the Eu, it's feeding into the anti immigration sentiment, just as much as brexit posters ( eta By posters I mean the propaganda images, not people posting on the internet.)


I don't think that pointing out the fallacies in the argument that Brexit will necessarily see a fall in immigration is tantamount to conceding that such a fall would necessarily be a good thing, though it is clear that many people - on both sides of the debate, but more so on the Leave side, I think - are of that opinion.


----------



## Magyarmum

@Jesthar said

Again, _we _know that, but some have a stubbornly pre-defined notion of what a 'genuine refugee' should look like, and that notion doesn't usually include anyone who looks as if they might have a modern lifestyle before war broke out. Number one comment I've personally seen by 'refugee critics'? "They have smartphones, they can't possibly be real refugees!" The logic that if you are a moderately successful individual/family in one of the many countries that was relatively prosperous pre-war, you are likely to have a smartphone of some kind and are also almost guaranteed to take it with you when you flee so you can at least try and keep in contact with your family and friends, seems to completely pass them by.

In fact a smartphone is an essential and a lifeline for refugees particularly those crossing Europe.

Two articles. both quite old but which explains the importance of smart phones to displaced people!

https://qz.com/500062/the-most-crucial-item-that-migrants-and-refugees-carry-is-a-smartphone/

https://www.unhcr.org/news/stories/2018/8/5b6c40f04/cash-assistance-gives-refugees-power-choice.html

Unfortunately in my experience irrespective of where in the world you live, the majority of people seem to have an extremely negative perception of refugees. In South Africa for example, Zimbabweans were constantly accused of stealing jobs whilst Nigerians were labelled as drug lords or pimps, In Mayotte which has boat loads of illegal immigrants arriving every day the main complaint was the overloading of the main hospital by refugee women, due to give birth.

Suffice it to say as someone who was mugged by an illegal immigrant and ended up in hospital, some of them aren't exactly "nice" people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This might be of interest when trying define who a refugee is and who is a migrant: https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/definitions



> A European regulation allows a country such as the UK to return an adult asylum seeker to the first European country they reached. This means that countries on the edge of Europe have responsibility for a lot more asylum seekers than others. Some of the countries through which people travel to get to Europe are not safe places and many have not signed the Refugee Convention, meaning that people who remain there will not get international protection and be able to rebuild their lives.


https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_4

Migrants definition: http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social...mes/international-migration/glossary/migrant/



> _"The term 'migrant' in article 1.1 (a) should be understood as covering all cases where the decision to migrate is taken freely by the individual concerned, for reasons of 'personal convenience' and without intervention of an external compelling factor."_





> The dominant forms of migration can be distinguished according to the motives (economic, family reunion, refugees) or legal status (irregular migration, controlled emigration/immigration, free emigration/immigration) of those concerned. Most countries distinguish between a number of categories in their migration policies and statistics. The variations existing between countries indicate that there are no objective definitions of migration.


Those trying to break into the UK are migrants not refugees or assylum seekers.


----------



## Magyarmum

I've just receive this in my in box

*Letter from the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission to Prime Minister Theresa May*

https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/messages/30461?reason=norrinuser


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I've just receive this in my in box
> 
> *Letter from the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission to Prime Minister Theresa May*
> 
> https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/messages/30461?reason=norrinuser


I tried to click on the link and it asked me to sign into yahoo. I don't have a yahoo email account


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I tried to click on the link and it asked me to sign into yahoo. I don't have a yahoo email account


Is this better?

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...prime-minister-theresa-may-14-january-2019_en


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Is this better?
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...prime-minister-theresa-may-14-january-2019_en


Spot on


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Please read this as it gives a very different picture about payments to asylum seekers/refugees to the one you've been led to believe!
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/what-youll-get


If you read the start and end of Scrippys post, Scrippy IS an immigrant and was sent that nonsense by a friend - everything between STATE PENSION and I JUST DID is a C&P of what the friend sent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Is this better?
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...prime-minister-theresa-may-14-january-2019_en


Doesn't mention anything about remaining in the EU anywhere in Donald Tusks letter. To the EU we are leaving and that is that. They are ready to sign the withdrawal agreement straight after the meaningful vote tomorrow. This must be very disappointing to some remainers.

I am with my dad on this one. The MP's should accept the withdrawal agreement or accept no deal.

It seems remaining is off the table as it is not mentioned once from what I read.

Donald Tusk has done what was asked and clarified things about the back stop.

Some remainers need to read the letter on the link provided by @Magyarmum before replying.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> If you read the start and end of Scrippys post, Scrippy IS an immigrant and was sent that nonsense by a friend - everything between STATE PENSION and I JUST DID is a C&P of what the friend sent.


I'm not sure what I did wrong, but you sound as though you're annoyed with me?

All I did was to give the UK Government's official information on the financial support available for asylum seekers which is what her post was all about.

I know Cheeky is an immigrant in the UK, just as I am in Hungary, and like her I'm also feeling unloved and somewhat forgotten!


----------



## Arnie83

Latest YouGov / Times poll suggests that the Tories now have a 6 point lead over Labour re voting intentions.

Way to go Jezza.

When do we suppose it might occur to him that his current tactics aren't working?


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I'm not sure what I did wrong, but you sound as though you're annoyed with me?
> 
> All I did was to give the UK Government's official information on the financial support available for asylum seekers which is what her post was all about.
> 
> I know Cheeky is an immigrant in the UK, just as I am in Hungary, and like her I'm also feeling unloved and somewhat forgotten!


Nope, not annoyed at all, I just wanted to check you'd realised scrippy was just posting what had been sent her as an example of the misinformation that is sadly still doing the rounds, not what she personally believes to be the case - mainly as I had to read it twice before I realised, you see...  (it was rather late when I first read it...)

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I didn't mean to. I don't get annoyed easily, and certainly don't want to annoy you - you're one of the most level headed posters on this thread


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Nope, not annoyed at all, I just wanted to check you'd realised scrippy was just posting what had been sent her as an example of the misinformation that is sadly still doing the rounds, not what she personally believes to be the case - mainly as I had to read it twice before I realised, you see...  (it was rather late when I first read it...)
> 
> Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I didn't mean to. I don't get annoyed easily, and certainly don't want to annoy you - you're one of the most level headed posters on this thread


Thank you for the compliment .... I'll try not to get too big headed!

I know from reading your posts that you always give a balanced and unbiased view which was why I was a little puzzled so thought it better to ask! Although I hadn't read the piece of misinformation that Cheeky was sent, I had for some unknown reason read the government directive - if that's the right word - that I posted.


----------



## Arnie83

Alternatively to my recent post; Survation (2 days ago) finds that Labour has a 3 point lead.

All of which suggests it's quite close!


----------



## Arnie83

Esther McVey - Tory Brexiteer - explaining that leaving without a deal and moving onto WTO terms will be great because we can sort everything out during the implementation period, and will save £39 billion.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084716977275486209

2 years we've been doing this and she still doesn't seem to realise that with no deal, there won't _be_ an implementation period.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Tory whip Gareth Johnson, MP for Dartford has resigned ahead of the crucial brexit vote tomorrow in Parliament.

















https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...f-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-vote-a4038371.html


----------



## noushka05

Loving these billboards trolling tories with their own words.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Loving these billboards trolling tories with their own words.


Two of #[email protected] faithful followers ....


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Loving these billboards trolling tories with their own words.


One message from this fiasco - not just the above - is that the government believe that the democratic process is not invalidated by lies, obfuscation and even illegal activity.

May says that if we don't leave then trust in politics will be damaged, as if there is any more damage left to be done.


----------



## Elles

Probably named from black adder. Though the 'led by donkeys' has a history going back to Crimea and the First World War and relates to British soldiers supposedly being Lions led by Donkeys, a slur on the generals of course and interestingly originally thought to be a comment by the Russians, though not on Facebook this time.  In recent times history has been examined.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zq2y87h


----------



## Elles

Consider this, what if those Brexit tweets were actually true?


----------



## KittenKong

:Cat


----------



## kimthecat

Will we still be able to Euro lottery tickets ?


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Will we still be able to Euro lottery tickets ?


Yes. EuroMillions is to do with the lottery not the Eu.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> One message from this fiasco - not just the above - is that the government believe that the democratic process is not invalidated by lies, obfuscation and even illegal activity.
> 
> May says that if we don't leave then trust in politics will be damaged, as if there is any more damage left to be done.


Has she no self awareness at all. May herself is one of the most untrustworthy, duplicitous politicians in this country!

Don't know if you've come across this thread by Schona Jolly QC on our 'impassive aggressive PM but its excellent & well worth sharing..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
_
"Impassive Aggressive".

If that's a thing, I think it is a fitting description of Theresa May.

Some thoughts on why, for all the spectacle of being a lone figure battling on all sides, May does not deserve a nation's sympathy. /1

All throughout this process, and Brexit is very a much a process (to which I will return), there have been a series of choices. At each turn, May has made very poor choices. It is those choices which have led us to the precipice on which we sit as a nation today. /2

Of those choices, to my mind, it is the failure of transparency which has had the most serious ramifications. Indeed, it can't even be described as a failure of transparency. It was a conscious choice in May's part to keep reality cloaked in darkness during her premiership. /3

She has brought to her governance of the country her method of governance of the Home Office. Inscrutable, surrounded by a tight circle of advisers, determined to appeal everything no matter how wrong she is in law and fact (ask immigration lawyers about that). /4

May is the architect of the Hostile Environment, which would never have been uncovered if it were not for reporters like @ameliagentleman. 
May has managed to bring And foster that Hostile Environment to the whole country, with her management, control and direction of Brexit. /5

She started it with citizens of nowhere & underlined it with queue-jumpers. In an era of "enemies of the people" & "traitors" & "betrayals", she wasn't a strong leader who clamped down on the braying, but instead fostered a narrative that Brexit would be betrayed

May's betrayal narrative was behind the general election. 
It was behind the bitterness of what should have been legal, technical debates about the Withdrawal Bill.

And it was in every mouthful of that *authoritarian* "will of the people". /7

May isn't a unifier. She has sought aggressively to block, ignore and chastise almost half the country's vote in the referendum by refusing to acknowledge it.
She has blocked proper debate by resorting to embarrassing cliches which now finally knock her down

There was another way to try Brexit.

It requires transparency from beginning to end.

That meant levelling with the people about the trade-offs involved.

Publishing, not blocking, impact assessments.

Publishing honest economic assessments, not last minute spinning. /9

It meant consultation.

With devolved governments, cross-party, with business, with lawyers and judges, with the arts and sciences, with academia.

With the @The3Million @BritishInEurope and all those dramatically affected by the choices.

She chose to ignore them. /10

It meant recognising & acknowledging that Brexit was a monumental process. One in which the clock shouldn't be set off until the outcome of that process was settled at least from the domestic side.

May treated Brexit as a parade instead of a process. /11

So May settled on the parade of Brexit instead of the process.

She blocked transparent discussion of that process with talk of red, white and blue Brexit, Brexit festivals, blue passports, dramatic signings of the Withdrawal Act.

She wasted time waving flags. /

She used pitiful propaganda to paper the cracks, crevices and ravines of Brexit.

And now those are all there in front of her, and us.

She can't pretend not to see them any more.

And still she tries. _

_*Apparently blind to what everyone else can see*. /12

So she delays a vote before Parliament.

She stands there obstinately refusing to budge.

Still citing the will of the people.

Still angry with EU politicians for pointing out the blinding obvious.

*Still placating her extremists with what she knows is nonsense*.

She does it knowing she is running down the clock, pushing us closer to a distastrous No Deal which she spent 2 years pretending was a real option.

She does this t*o satisfy* a *lunatic ideological fringe* in her party instead of firmly placing the national interest first

May's long list of pretences has wasted time, further divided the country & now threatens to push us over the cliff edge.

She has done it by covering her eyes, blocking her ears & speaking things unworthy of a democratic Prime Minister.

Impassive aggressive?

May?

Absolutely._



Elles said:


> Consider this, what if those Brexit tweets were actually true?


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Alex Taylor: _This is shameful. Asked if UK citizens in EU who have to come back after losing rights in no-deal Brexit, will have rights on return to UK - this Exiting the EU Minister simply doesn't have a clue. _

_Have a look_. IT'S 9 WEEKS AWAY. HE SERIOUSLY SHOULD


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084564013286150144
...........................................


----------



## stockwellcat.

Hilary Benn has withdrawn his amendment to reject the withdrawal bill and no deal. Has he read it again like TM advised MP's to yesterday?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Brexitier Nadhim Zahwai MP is on Sky News has said he will vote for TM's deal to avoid a no deal. What a u-turn.


----------



## noushka05

This is great by Hilary Benn doing everything possible to prevent a disastrous no deal >>>>

*Hilary Benn*‏Verified account @hilarybennmp 1h1 hour ago

I have decided to withdraw my amendment to the Government's Withdrawal Agreement motion today which would have rejected both the PM's deal and leaving with no deal.

It's vital that we now get the clearest expression of view from the House on the Government's deal - like many others I will vote against it - but I intend to pursue a 'no to no deal' vote at the earliest opportunity

Since I originally tabled the amendment in December, the House has voted for a no deal amendment to the Finance Bill which is a clear and very welcome indication of MPs' opposition to no deal

Dominic Grieve's amendment and the Speaker's ruling that a business motion can be amended are also very important and there is now a proposal for a Bill that would allow the Commons in effect to rule out a no deal Brexit by seeking an extension to Article 50 if necessary.

All these developments mean that the House will soon have the opportunity to make it clear that it rejects no deal and so offer reassurance to the many businesses and their workers who are very anxious about the disaster that a no deal Brexit would represent

If the Prime Minister loses tonight the Government must reach out across the House to try and find a way forward. If this doesn't happen, then Parliament will have to take the lead

.................


----------



## noushka05

HAHA

What a joke the tories are! sadly they're dragging the country down with them & turning it into a laughing stock as well.


----------



## noushka05

Caroline Lucas, outstanding as always.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 14h14 hours ago
The real subversion of democracy is a Prime Minister who has consistently shut Parliament out of the #Brexit process & now refuses a #PeoplesVote on a deal that bears no resemblance to the one that was promised 2 years ago.

Why is she so afraid to go to the people? #BrexitVote


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084878624828862464
.................................................


----------



## KittenKong

Thoughts about the vote tonight. Should May lose, if the vote goes ahead that it, will she consider it to be "advisory" then press ahead with her deal regardless? She could secretly impose it just in time for Brexit and an uproar in parliament would fall on deaf ears as it would be too late for them to do anything about it.

They can't touch the fascist as she's guaranteed herself at least another year in power following the clever leadership challenge distraction last year.

May reminds me of a boss I once had who thrived on his unpopularity and took pleasure in winding people up.


----------



## kimthecat

Its going to be a long day today . It feels like we are caught between the Devil and the deep blue sea.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> If you read the start and end of Scrippys post, Scrippy IS an immigrant and was sent that nonsense by a friend - everything between STATE PENSION and I JUST DID is a C&P of what the friend sent.


If I was sent that disgusting nonsense from a "friend" they would no longer be a friend. Another vile method of inspiring hatred towards others as I would expect from the Yaxley-Lennon mob.

Even if there was an ounce of truth in that would they seriously believe by deporting "immigrants" the money would be transferred to "British" OAPs instead? As plausible as the money spent on EU membership being spent on the NHS as advertised on the red bus. People fell for that one too.

As it is, even as an EU member pensions in the UK are amongst, if not the lowest in the block. Have they forgotten OAPs too scared to heat their homes were told to wrap up warm and wear wooly hats in Thatcher's day?


----------



## noushka05

Brilliant by Betty Boothroyd.

_"I feared the worst when David Cameron aligned his party with the far right in Strasbourg, and even more so when he caved into his hard right wingers and media pressure by calling the 2016 referendum.......

Wilson said anyone who claimed membership of the EU was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton..... which brings me on to Boris Johnson" _
LOL


----------



## noushka05

Thank the lord!

*Keir Starmer*‏Verified account @Keir_Starmer 52m52 minutes ago


This evening Parliament finally gets the chance to pass its verdict on two years of failed negotiation. Labour has always made clear that we won't support a bad Brexit deal.

Today we deliver on that promise. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...ed-to-endorse-a-blind-brexit-sir-keir-starmer


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Its going to be a long day today . It feels like we are caught between the Devil and the deep blue sea.


Telly off.
Brexit Thread on PF on ignore.
Back to what I was doing.
:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Telly off.
> *Brexit Thread on PF on ignore.*
> Back to what I was doing.
> :Hilarious


Can you do that.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> Can you do that.


Based on past experience and evidence, no...


----------



## AlexPed2393

Well today should be interesting, lets see how many Tories lose their bottle and side with May after not agreeing with her deal


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Thoughts about the vote tonight. Should May lose, if the vote goes ahead that it, will she consider it to be "advisory" then press ahead with her deal regardless? *She could secretly impose it just in time for Brexit and an uproar in parliament would fall on deaf ears as it would be too late for them to do anything about it.*
> 
> They can't touch the fascist as she's guaranteed herself at least another year in power following the clever leadership challenge distraction last year.
> 
> May reminds me of a boss I once had who thrived on his unpopularity and took pleasure in winding people up.


You've said this before but I really don't think it's a possibility. She can't 'impose' it without ratification from Parliament. All she can do is find a way to let the clock run down until there is no other option, and I don't think she can do that either!


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Well today should be interesting, lets see how many Tories lose their bottle and side with May after not agreeing with her deal


I suspect there will be quite a few. But all it will take is for the DUP to stick to its guns and the deal won't pass. All predictions from those in the bubble still seem to point to a fairly clear-cut defeat.

Will it be large enough to convince May she has nowhere to go, except to go!


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect there will be quite a few. But all it will take is for the DUP to stick to its guns and the deal won't pass. All predictions from those in the bubble still seem to point to a fairly clear-cut defeat.
> 
> Will it be large enough to convince May she has nowhere to go, except to go!


I have a feeling today will only open up another can of worms and even more questions than we had before


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect there will be quite a few. But all it will take is for the DUP to stick to its guns and the deal won't pass. All predictions from those in the bubble still seem to point to a fairly clear-cut defeat.
> 
> Will it be large enough to convince May she has nowhere to go, except to go!


The discussion seems to be all about the size of the defeat now with predications of what will happen if she losses by less than a 100, 100-200 or over 200, it is all being thrown into the pot


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> Well today should be interesting, lets see how many Tories lose their bottle and side with May after not agreeing with her deal


Yes, most of them have a yellow strips up their backs.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

AlexPed2393 said:


> I have a feeling today will only open up another can of worms and even more questions than we had before


I should think it is extremely likely there will more questions to be asked after today!


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Can you do that.


haha ! he's managed an hour and three quarters so far. !


----------



## kimthecat

The Daily mail is urging MPs to back Mrs May plan , its preferable to a No Deal .


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just don't care any more, I've got a headache.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> haha ! he's managed an hour and three quarters so far. !


But it could be only because maybe he's gone out to do some shopping or maybe to have a long walk??????

:Couchpotato


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> You've said this before but I really don't think it's a possibility. She can't 'impose' it without ratification from Parliament. All she can do is find a way to let the clock run down until there is no other option, and I don't think she can do that either!


I hope you are right. May did get away with something similar by unilaterally making a decision re a bombing supporting the US before Parliament had a chance to debate it.

I seriously believe she'll try something like this if she loses tonight. I just hope Parliament manage to stop her and, better still, if not carted off by the men in white coats, deprived of her powers and relegated to the back benches.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I hope you are right. May did get away with something similar by unilaterally making a decision re a bombing supporting the US before Parliament had a chance to debate it.
> 
> I seriously believe she'll try something like this if she loses tonight. I just hope Parliament manage to stop her and, better still, if not carted off by the men in white coats, deprived of her powers and relegated to the back benches.


 Another conversation we've had before on this thread that you're now resuscitating!

In the case of the bombing you're referring to TM DIDN'T NEED to consult Parliament before making the decision!


----------



## noushka05

So true.

*James O'Brien*‏:
_
Whatever happens next, it will take generations to wash away the shame of being governed by people who boast about abolishing freedom of movement for their own citizens and our closest neighbours._


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> So true.
> 
> *James O'Brien*‏:
> _
> Whatever happens next, it will take generations to wash away the shame of being governed by people who boast about abolishing freedom of movement for their own citizens and our closest neighbours._


To be fair (perhaps over-generously so) to those who profess to govern us, they were responding to the demands of many of the people already here who don't want more from outside our territory coming into it. I think it chimed very well with what the likes of May wanted to do anyway - hence the 'hostile environment' - but at least they can now say that they are only following the orders of a substantial minority of the electorate.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> The Daily mail is urging MPs to back Mrs May plan , its preferable to a No Deal .


One of the reasons we're in this mess is due to people believing what is written in this hate filled rag.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> To be fair (perhaps over-generously so) to those who profess to govern us, they were responding to the demands of many of the people already here who don't want more from outside our territory coming into it. I think it chimed very well with what the likes of May wanted to do anyway - hence the 'hostile environment' - *but at least they can now say that they are only following the orders of a substantial minority of the elector*ate.


Absolutely - not in my name though.

The root of the anti immigration sentiment stems mostly from right wing politicians & right wing rags (like the aforementioned Mail) which have pumped out lies about immigration & used immigrants as scapegoats for decades. This is why many people believe our NHS & public services are in crisis & there is a shortage of social housing & hence why they voted for 'control of our borders'.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> One of the reasons we're in this mess is due to people believing what is written in this hate filled rag.


Some people.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Millions of young people, now eligible, were denied a vote, yet they will be the ones to live with the impact the longest. Its so unfair.


And yet someone - I think it was KK? - posted a 'letter' from a 16 year old saying that them and their friends were 'clueless' about Brexit. So those are the people that should be allowed to vote?

And a lot of the ones that could didn't bother. (I think what you posted is called whataboutery as you didn't actually address the question).

Edit - how young do you go? 16? 14? 7?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> To be fair (perhaps over-generously so) to those who profess to govern us, they were responding to the demands of many of the people already here who don't want more from outside our territory coming into it. I think it chimed very well with what the likes of May wanted to do anyway - hence the 'hostile environment' - but at least they can now say that they are only following the orders of a substantial minority of the electorate.


It was the BNP who created the soundbite, "It's not racist to be concerned about immigration" or words to that effect. You know, the hate mongers who want a "white Britain"...



noushka05 said:


> One of the reasons we're in this mess is due to people believing what is written in this hate filled rag.


Very true. People still quote what they read in the tabloids. Had The Sun backed remaining in the EU we wouldn't be in this mess.



noushka05 said:


> Absolutely - not in my name though.
> 
> The root of the anti immigration sentiment stems mostly from right wing politicians & right wing rags (like the aforementioned Mail) which have pumped out lies about immigration & used immigrants as scapegoats for decades. This is why many people believe our NHS & public services are in crisis & there is a shortage of social housing & hence why they voted for 'control of our borders'.


Not in my bloody name either. If people think I'm " anti British" for not holding that opinion then let them. If thst's what being "British" is all about then perhaps they're right.

I thought the UK was turning a corner, even Cameron in his early days attempted to bring his party to the 21st century.



kimthecat said:


> The Daily mail is urging MPs to back Mrs May plan , its preferable to a No Deal .


Judges and "Remoaners" are enemies of the people. Are they now arguing those that vote against her plan are so due to a change of editorship, regardless whether they're leavers or remainers?


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Another conversation we've had before on this thread that you're now resuscitating!
> 
> In the case of the bombing you're referring to TM DIDN'T NEED to consult Parliament before making the decision!


Round and round and round and round and round this thread goes.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> So true.
> 
> *James O'Brien*‏:
> _
> Whatever happens next, it will take generations to wash away the shame of being governed by people who boast about abolishing freedom of movement for their own citizens and our closest neighbours._


I dunno, people have surprisingly short memories when it suits


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> "It's not racist to be concerned about immigration"


It isn't though. Not that I agree with that political party on most of their views


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Round and round and round and round and round this thread goes.


Like a cracked gramophone record it goes .......


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> Like a cracked gramophone record it goes .......


I've gone back and read some of the bits I wasn't involved in, this does just keep coming round and round and round


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> And yet someone - I think it was KK? - posted a 'letter' from a 16 year old saying that them and their friends were 'clueless' about Brexit. So those are the people that should be allowed to vote?
> 
> And a lot of the ones that could didn't bother. (I think what you posted is called whataboutery as you didn't actually address the question).
> 
> Edit - how young do you go? 16? 14? 7?


And the rest of us weren't clueless about brexit? lol

16 & 17 year olds were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum yet were denied a vote in the EU ref despite it affecting their futures most of all. And as we saw in the Scottish ref the youngsters were well informed & politically engaged.

I'm not engaging in whataboutism. The referendum was gerrymandered in favour of leave. Many of those who voted leave have since died while the 16/17 year olds have come of age. Should the views of those who have died should outweigh the young people who will be stuck with this mess they had no say in? Do you believe a peoples vote now we are better informed would be undemocratic?

16 - if you're old enough to serve your country & get married you're surely old enough to vote!


----------



## kimthecat

Bercow Trending on Twitter

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...all-guarantees-humiliating-defeat-theresa-may
John Bercow continues to make life as difficult as possible for Theresa May. The Speaker has selected four out of a possible six amendments to this evening's Commons vote on the withdrawal agreement, none of them helpful to the Prime Minister.

Downing Street had signalled it could support three potential changes to the motion approving the divorce deal and political declaration on the UK's future relationship with the EU that MPs will vote on (and defeat) tonight.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...amendment.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK

John Bercow killed off Theresa May's last lifeline in tonight's vote this afternoon by ignoring an amendment seen as the PM's best hope of avoiding catastrophe.

He ignored a proposal from Tory MP Andrew Murrison which would have approved the deal subject to further negotiation to get an expiry date on the Irish border backstop.

The plan was unlikely to carry tonight but it was thought No 10 wanted to see a strong vote in favour of it to demonstrate to Brussels what was needed to win a second clash.

Mr Bercow also rejected amendments from John Mann and Hugo Swire that ministers had signalled they would accept.


----------



## noushka05

KK is right, May is behaving more like a dictator.

*Tom Newton Dunn*‏

I hear the PM just told Cabinet she will push on with her Brexit deal, no matter the size of tonight's defeat, as "it's the only option".

A big push from Rudd/Clark/Gauke/Perry to open talks with moderate Labour MPs, but rejected by Hunt/Javid/Fox/Lewis/Truss/Wil


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> And yet someone - I think it was KK? - posted a 'letter' from a 16 year old saying that them and their friends were 'clueless' about Brexit. So those are the people that should be allowed to vote?
> 
> And a lot of the ones that could didn't bother. (I think what you posted is called whataboutery as you didn't actually address the question).
> 
> Edit - how young do you go? 16? 14? 7?


If we were to exclude people from voting because they were clueless ...

I guess if we think 16 year olds are sufficiently mature to make decisions regarding their bodies, then it indicates we should have faith in them being able to listen to arguments and cast a vote on their own future.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> If we were to exclude people from voting because they were clueless ...
> 
> I guess if we think 16 year olds are sufficiently mature to make decisions regarding their bodies, then it indicates we should have faith in them being able to listen to arguments and cast a vote on their own future.


 Good point but I dont think 16 y.o. are mature enough to make decisions about their bodies either. 
You have to be 17 to have a driving licence.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Good point but I dont think 16 y.o. are mature enough to make decisions about their bodies either.
> * You have to be 17 to have a driving licence*.


And it expires when you're 70!


----------



## JANICE199

MilleD said:


> Round and round and round and round and round this thread goes.


*As does the situation with our government. Until a deal is done, i can't see any other outcome. *


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> And it expires when you're 70!


Wrong!

You can have a driving licence for as long as you are deemed fit to drive. Over the age of 70 driving licences are valid for 2 years. My father was still driving quite safely at 85.

It's the same in Hungary. I'm 79 years old and renewed my driving licence for 2 years last September.


----------



## stockwellcat.

At least Bercow hasn't allowed the amendment for a second referendum.

2 of the 4 amendments he has allowed to me are reasonable as they are about the back stop.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Can you do that.


Yep. Switch the computer off. Don't use the internet on your phone. Do all the things you need to do.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> You've said this before but I really don't think it's a possibility. She can't 'impose' it without ratification from Parliament. All she can do is find a way to let the clock run down until there is no other option, and I don't think she can do that either!


Seems I'm not the only one who thinks that.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Wrong!
> 
> You can have a driving licence for as long as you are deemed fit to drive. Over the age of 70 driving licences are valid for 2 years. My father was still driving quite safely at 85.
> 
> It's the same in Hungary. I'm 79 years old and renewed my driving licence for 2 years last September.


You can renew it every three years but the original expires at 70l

Right!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> But it could be only because maybe he's gone out to do some shopping or maybe to have a long walk??????
> 
> :Couchpotato


Yep. I was doing things I needed to do in normal everyday life. I have finished them now (earlier than anticipated) so here I am back on here. I will be on and off here though until the vote.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Seems I'm not the only one who thinks that.
> 
> View attachment 388488


Yes I saw that - making Parliament vote on the same deal until they get it right! - but she can't enact it without Parliamentary approval, much as she'd like to.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> And it expires when you're 70!


 and then you renew it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You can renew it every three years but the original expires at 70l
> 
> Right!


Should be you don't have to pay for it when you retire. Not many male members in my family have reached 70.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Should be you don't have to pay for it when you retire. Not many male members in my family have reached 70.


 My dad died before he was 70 . He had to renew his license every three years and get a letter from the doctor because he was diabetic .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> and then you renew it .


Yep. So long as you pass the appropriate test.

Didn't mean to start a debate on it!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> My dad died before he was 70 . He had to renew his license every three years and get a letter from the doctor because he was diabetic .


My son is also diabetic and like your dad also has a 3 year licence and needs a medical certificate to renew it.

In case anyone doesn't know you have to get your photo on your driving licence changed every 10 years.

http://www.yourdrivinglicence.co.uk/renewing-your-photo-driving-licence-every-10-years.html

*My licence is valid until I'm 70 - isn't it?*
Many motorists believe that their photocard - like the old style green paper licences - are valid right up until they turn 70. In actual fact, they expire after a relatively short ten year period.


----------



## kimthecat

Is it just me or is the internet being really slow today ? perhaps every ones on line talking about the vote .
ETA The spell check on PF is annoying me. Im going to end up spelling everything American English .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Yep. So long as you pass the appropriate test.
> 
> Didn't mean to start a debate on it!


Sorry , What test ?


----------



## MollySmith

The most sensible words I've seen so far and I felt pertinent to this thread. Whichever way anyone voted, I don't imagine anyone envisaged today. I'm going to pull out the plug on telly and internet in a bit. I feel the vote outcome is fairly clear though heaven only knows to be honest. If an army of Darleks invaded I'd be less surprised, but it's the 'what happens next' that concerns me as I know it does everyone.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 388513
> The most sensible words I've seen so far and I felt pertinent to this thread. Whichever way anyone voted, I don't imagine anyone envisaged today. I'm going to pull out the plug on telly and internet in a bit. I feel the vote outcome is fairly clear though heaven only knows to be honest. If an army of Darleks invaded I'd be less surprised, but it's the 'what happens next' that concerns me as I know it does everyone.


Being a glutton for punishment I'm going to stick it out tonight - can't bear to go to bed not knowing the outcome. At the moment I'm listening (with one ear) to Jeremy warbling on in the House of Commons which I'm watching (with one eye) on my laptop.

With my other ear and eye I'm watching CNN who are parked outside the Houses of P and No 10, giving a blow by blow account on all that's going on ----- as well as the latest tweets and "doings" of Donny Boy!


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , What test ?


I believe they ask if you have adequate eyesight, can confirm that there is nothing else that would prevent you from driving, and that you voted Remain.

If you get 2 out of 3, you get an extra 3 years.

Or something like that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Here we go....
Amendments first.
Jeremy Corbyns amendment not moved.
SNP amendment not moved.
3rd Amendment not moved (Tory Amendment).
John Baron's Amendment F moved (Tory amendment).

One amendment moved out of 4.
Division.

The amendment will give the UK the right to terminate the Northern Ireland backstop without permission from the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

John Baron's Amendment F

The amendment will give the UK the right to terminate the Northern Ireland backstop without permission from the EU.

Ayes:- 24
Noes:- 600

Rejected.
This was not a Government amendment.

Now the main vote.
If rejected the PM will have 3 sitting days to return to the house and set out her response.


----------



## cheekyscrip

24 with no respect for Good Friday agreement. 

Sad people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Junker to make a statement tonight after the UK Parliament results from the meaningful vote.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> 24 with no respect for Good Friday agreement.
> 
> Sad people.


They said that it would have no legal standing and they want a clean vote on TM's deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ayes:- 202
Noes:- 432

Rejected


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes = 202
Noes = 432

TM's now speaking


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM has challenged the Corbyn to call a vote of no confidence tonight which will be debated tomorrow. If not them they will consider it if it is called later.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn speaking.


----------



## MollySmith

Interesting watching the BBC politics show and the notion that TM wanted to get out of this when she called the shock GE. It’s as if she wants to go but won’t resign.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn has called a vote of no confidence which will be debated tomorrow.


----------



## MollySmith

So tactically we can now blame Corbyn who has been forced into it... which I can’t help but think he had to be forced.


----------



## stockwellcat.

My dad said Corbyn is an idiot. He said TM will win. He needs the DUP to get across the line and they have said they will not back Corbyn.


----------



## MollySmith

He’s been very backward in coming forward. My OH is a Labour supporter and is not impressed, there has been many opportunities missed.

Mind you TM also needs the DUP so that’s two idiots.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now basically we have country split three ways...
Deal is worse than Remain.
No Deal is worse than the Deal.
But Brexit is Brexit.


Problem with first referendum- it was a vote against EU not for anything specific, as no shape of Brexit was known, only slogans and unrealistic promises.

Second referendum should be a vote for specific agreement not a vote against.
This is Brexit, this is Remain, clearly outlined options and then people can decide what they are voting FOR.

Not against.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> Interesting watching the BBC politics show and the notion that TM wanted to get out of this when she called the shock GE. It's as if she wants to go but won't resign.


But she thought she was going to walk the GE though didn`t she?


----------



## stockwellcat.

At the moment the UK is in no deal territory. I wonder what Junker is going to say? No Deal?


----------



## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> He's been very backward in coming forward. My OH is a Labour supporter and is not impressed, there has been many opportunities missed.
> 
> Mind you TM also needs the DUP so that's two idiots.


Not impressed by Corbyn for last three years at last... 
David Miliband - time to come back!


----------



## Magyarmum

I bet the phone lines and ethernet are humming between the 27 member countries at the moment!


----------



## cheekyscrip

No Way. 


stockwellcat. said:


> At the moment the UK is in no deal territory. I wonder what Junker is going to say? No Deal?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> No Way.


Really?
The EU leaders said this deal or no deal.

Let's see what Junker says soon.


----------



## MollySmith

3dogs2cats said:


> But she thought she was going to walk the GE though didn`t she?


Yes, it's an interesting theory but then again she was a remain voter. I'd never be able to see through something I didn't believe in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sky News are predicting TM will win the Vote of No Confidence easily.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Not impressed by Corbyn for last three years at last...
> David Miliband - time to come back!


Not often you and I agree but having seen David Milliband interviewed a few times just recently, came to the conclusion that he'd be a much better leader than Corbyn!


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat. said:


> Really?
> The EU leaders said this deal or no deal.
> 
> Let's see what Junker says soon.


It's like the whole mess since the campaign before the referendum... it's not at all clear and whilst the government were saying there is negotiation, Junkers has said no. There is one thing I do agree with Corbyn - no confidence. Not in anyone when there are either lies or total communication breakdown. Neither is good.


----------



## stockwellcat.

EU Commission said they are preparing for a disorderly withdrawal and said it is more than likely this will happen now.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Not often you and I agree but having seen David Milliband interviewed a few times just recently, came to the conclusion that he'd be a much better leader than Corbyn!


Always was, better than Ed too. Less awkward. When his younger brother stole by stealth and lots of grease the lidership of Labour it was their worst decision ever.
Ed lost, Cameron won and look where we are today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Junker has said "Time Is Almost Up".


----------



## Snoringbear

Must be one of the biggest defeats in parliamentary history. That just leaves no deal which parliament won’t back or remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Really?
> The EU leaders said this deal or no deal.
> 
> Let's see what Junker says soon.


Really.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Really.


It's not over yet @cheekyscrip.

TM said if she wins the vote of no confidence the Government will decide what happens next.

Corbyn doesn't stand a chance.

The MP's in the conservative party that voted against the deal tonight said they will vote for TM tomorrow. They are saying now is not the time for another GE.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 388526


I want to say the public but actually I think anyone under 18.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> It's not over yet @cheekyscrip.
> 
> TM said if she wins the vote of no confidence yet the Government will decide what happens next.
> 
> Corbyn doesn't stand a chance.


I am hardly a fan of Corbyn my dear.
Dearly wish another leader for Labour.

Corbyn sabotaged Remain and forced Labour to vote for Article 50, just so when it goes bust he gets the PM seat.
All he wants is GE.
Two faced man , best in clinging to his seat.

Your Dad deserves a Hobgoblin.


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat. said:


> It's not over yet @cheekyscrip.
> 
> TM said if she wins the vote of no confidence the Government will decide what happens next.
> 
> Corbyn doesn't stand a chance.
> 
> The MP's in the conservative party that voted against the deal tonight said they will vote for TM tomorrow.


So basically it's all playground politics with the future of everyone who is in it at stake. It's a bloody joke. How can anyone vote against something so strongly and assume to have confidence. That's not a question for you or anyone, but a rant. Someone stick David Cameron in the stocks, with Johnson and Farage. I blame them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

My dad thinks they are a bunch of pompus idiots in parliament.

My dad voted remain @cheekyscrip but wants the countries wishes respecting and that is to leave.


----------



## rona

They will make sure we stay in, that's what this is all about really. The rich protecting the status quo


----------



## MollySmith

I still have issues about it being the countries wish. Not me (can I say 42) But that takes us back to page 1 of the previous thread before this one when life seemed heaps simpler!


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> They will make sure we stay in, that's what this is all about really. The rich protecting the status quo


The rich want a hard Brexit, their assets will go up and regulations will go down.
Corporations will rake it in.
Hard Brexit will terribly damage farming industry, manufacturing, universities, financial services and causes huge job loses.

That will not hurt those with money trees in Caymans.

Hard Brexit will split Britain between the privileged under the ERG and impoverished masses.
Corbyn counts on that and expects people will rally against ERG then.
This is why he is so reluctant to support Remain.
Brexit is simply about the damage, the harder Brexit the more dangerous.

Then also is NI and Gibraltar.


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> The rich want a hard Brexit, their assets will go up and regulations will go down.
> Corporations will rake it in.
> Hard Brexit will terribly damage farming industry, manufacturing, universities, financial services and causes huge job loses.
> 
> That will not hurt those with money trees in Caymans.
> 
> Hard Brexit will split Britain between the privileged under the ERG and impoverished masses.
> Corbyn counts on that and expects people will rally against ERG then.
> This is why he is so reluctant to support Remain.
> Brexit is simply about the damage, the harder Brexit the more dangerous.
> 
> Then also is NI and Gibraltar.


 How many real people in ERG? How many multimillionaires?


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> How many real people in ERG? How many multimillionaires?


This gives you a list of all the members of the ERG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Research_Group

You can spendyour spare time researching which ones are millionaires, but having looked at the list I think you'll find there are far fewer than you think!


----------



## Magyarmum

Press Release from the European Commission

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-19-432_en.htm


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> So basically it's all playground politics with the future of everyone who is in it at stake. It's a bloody joke. How can anyone vote against something so strongly and assume to have confidence. That's not a question for you or anyone, but a rant. Someone stick David Cameron in the stocks, with Johnson and Farage. I blame them.


If I remember rightly 117 voted against May in the leadership confidence vote, they have just said 118 Tories voted against Mays deal tonight so clearly there are 118 Tory MPs who have no confidence in Mays government, however they will not vote against it tomorrow because as the saying goes `Turkeys do not vote for Christmas` The responsibility for all this damn mess lies with Cameron I my opinion, Farage is an idiot Johnson a self serving prat but Cameron ultimately is to blame!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> This gives you a list of all the members of the ERG
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Research_Group
> 
> You can spendyour spare time researching which ones are millionaires, but having looked at the list I think you'll find there are far fewer than you think!


Compare to their prevalence in the population?

How many are working class kids from state schools like most of common people?
As in comparison to population?

ERG basically cares for their own.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Today May’ Deal rejected and if not for Corbyn she will be out tomorrow...

Who actually might want a No Deal ? About 1 in 8 MPs.
Why ? Because you should put an interest of your country above your party or your cronies.

On another note - Labour choses leaders who have staunch support but do not appeal to less extreme, undecided voters.
Corbyn lost to “strong and stable” Maybot! 
She was her worst enemy and she stayed.

If she stays tomorrow, much as everyone is by now fed up with her- what is the alternative?

Corbyn does not care about anything but GE and PM, he says one thing, his party mayor leaders another.
If only Labour could make one coherent stand?
KS would be just the right man for the job.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Today May' Deal rejected and if not for Corbyn she will be out tomorrow...


You are a dreamer aren't you.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mean while @cheekyscrip your friends in Brussels are preparing for the UK to leave with no deal. Junker said time is running out.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Yes I saw that - making Parliament vote on the same deal until they get it right! - but she can't enact it without Parliamentary approval, much as she'd like to.


But if she survives a confidence vote which is extremely likely she'll have time to implement her plan while the rest of them are distracted elsewhere.

Alternatively, a GE is called with her plan in the manifesto. She wins that thanks to her friends in the media.

Nevertheless I was shocked at the extent of the defeat for her plan last night. I thought she would either narrowly win or lose it, like the original EU referendum itself.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Always was, better than Ed too. Less awkward. When his younger brother stole by stealth and lots of grease the lidership of Labour it was their worst decision ever.
> Ed lost, Cameron won and look where we are today.


Agreed, but I feel the media would've destroyed David Milliband as they destroyed his brother, or to whoever leads the Labour Party if they don't pander to the demands of Rupert Murdoch.

Blair as we know did and won three general elections!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Mean while @cheekyscrip your friends in Brussels are preparing for the UK to leave with no deal. Junker said time is running out.


Time is running out indeed but no deal is not an option as far as parliament is concerned. That's why I think May will quietly implement her plan as I said earlier, saying it's in the "National Interest" and "The British People want my plan".

As I also said earlier she reminds me of a boss I once had, he would've done exactly this to wind everyone up and to prove his position of power. He thrived on his unpopularity exactly as May does.

The EU could of course technically expel the UK through the terrible leadership of the two main parties which amounts to no deal.

I wouldn't blame them if they did.

Who asked to leave in the first place? It wasn't Junker and co.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> My dad thinks they are a bunch of pompus idiots in parliament.
> 
> My dad voted remain @cheekyscrip but wants the countries wishes to respect and that is to leave.


The UK is not a country. It's a union between four countries. For that matter you might as well call Europe or the EU a country!

It's your father's prerogative to respect the England and Wales vote. That doesn't mean the rest of the UK has to.

Forcing through something like Brexit which doesn't respect the will of the remain countries will backfire. Look what happened when Thatcher implemented the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK? It fueled the desire for devolution just as Brexit could and I hope break up the union.



stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 388530


The other option is to cancel Article 50 and forget the whole sorry saga. Sod the threats of civil unrest from the Yaxley-Lennon supporters mob.

The option is still available, so if the Government insist on no deal with the resultant chaos it won't be the fault of the EU if it were to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1959452780838894&id=155710354774360


----------



## cheekyscrip

May had to lose.
It was :” you voted and now I will tell what you voted for, you have to lump it or else no Brexit”.

This is why people have to get a chance to vote for a Brexit when they now the terms or no Brexit.
There was never 52% vote for No Deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Mean while @cheekyscrip your friends in Brussels are preparing for the UK to leave with no deal. Junker said time is running out.


Time could be extended, neither EU not MPs want to leave without a deal, damage to UK serves no one but Putin.
Most MPs agree No Deal will damage the country.
Which it will, how many people want that?


----------



## noushka05

haha

*ARTIST TAXI DRIVER*‏:

The Worst Defeat EVER!!!

The Worst Govt EVER!!!

The Worst PM EVER!!!


----------



## noushka05

David Schneider: _ I for one am amazed that a PM who ignored half the country and went for the most extreme Brexit based on unacheivable promises & impossible red lines and who insulted the EU and showed utter contempt for Parliament and lied to the public should have failed to get her deal through_

FASCINATING FACT. _The only job where you can work for two and a half years on something on which you stake your reputation and which is then rejected in the biggest rejection in over 100 years and not resign is Prime Minister._

..........................................................


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Time is running out indeed but no deal is not an option as far as parliament is concerned. That's why I think May will quietly implement her plan as I said earlier, saying it's in the "National Interest" and "The British People want my plan".
> 
> As I also said earlier she reminds me of a boss I once had, he would've done exactly this to wind everyone up and to prove his position of power. He thrived on his unpopularity exactly as May does.
> *
> The EU could of course technically expel the UK through the terrible leadership of the two main parties which amounts to no deal.*
> 
> I wouldn't blame them if they did.
> 
> Who asked to leave in the first place? It wasn't Junker and co.


And which Article are the EU going to invoke to do that?

Not Article 7 as that doesn't make any provision for expulsion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union

*Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union* is a procedure in the treaties of the European Union (EU) to suspend certain rights from a member state. While rights can be suspended, there is no mechanism to expel a member.

https://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=131633

Expulsion of a Member State from the EU after Lisbon: Political threat or legal reality?


----------



## noushka05

The voice of common sense and reason as always.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas

History has been made tonight in parliament

But lasting history will be made by the people

Now we must heal our divided country & tackle the inequality & exclusion behind the #Brexit vote

A #PeoplesVote must be opportunity to listen to one another & build a bigger future


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085276513463922688


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> The voice of common sense and reason as always.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas
> 
> History has been made tonight in parliament
> 
> But lasting history will be made by the people
> 
> Now we must heal our divided country & tackle the inequality & exclusion behind the #Brexit vote
> 
> A #PeoplesVote must be opportunity to listen to one another & build a bigger future
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085276513463922688


Or she just states the bleedin' obvious.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> haha
> 
> *ARTIST TAXI DRIVER*‏:
> 
> The Worst Defeat EVER!!!
> 
> The Worst Govt EVER!!!
> 
> The Worst PM EVER!!!


Who's that idiot?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> The UK is not a country. It's a union between four countries. For that matter you might as well call Europe or the EU a country!
> 
> It's your father's prerogative to respect the England and Wales vote. That doesn't mean the rest of the UK has to.
> 
> Forcing through something like Brexit which doesn't respect the will of the remain countries will backfire. Look what happened when Thatcher implemented the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK? It fueled the desire for devolution just as Brexit could and I hope break up the union.
> 
> The other option is to cancel Article 50 and forget the whole sorry saga. Sod the threats of civil unrest from the Yaxley-Lennon supporters mob.
> 
> The option is still available, so if the Government insist on no deal with the resultant chaos it won't be the fault of the EU if it were to happen.


Oh my god! The poll tax? Again? Really??


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Who's that idiot?


The idiot is called chunkymark and a true representative of the British people ...............................................

well just 4444 of them!


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> The idiot is called chunkymark and a true representative of the British people ...............................................
> 
> well just 4444 of them!


He's wearing 2 pairs of sunglasses. In a car. In the dark.

And I'm not sure which bit was supposed to be funny......


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> He's wearing 2 pairs of sunglasses. In a car. In the dark.
> 
> And I'm not sure which bit was supposed to be funny......


That makes two of us!


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> And the rest of us weren't clueless about brexit? lol
> 
> 16 & 17 year olds were allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum yet were denied a vote in the EU ref despite it affecting their futures most of all. And as we saw in the Scottish ref the youngsters were well informed & politically engaged.
> 
> I'm not engaging in whataboutism. The referendum was gerrymandered in favour of leave. Many of those who voted leave have since died while the 16/17 year olds have come of age. Should the views of those who have died should outweigh the young people who will be stuck with this mess they had no say in? Do you believe a peoples vote now we are better informed would be undemocratic?
> 
> 16 - if you're old enough to serve your country & get married you're surely old enough to vote!


"Many" who voted leave will now be dead? What a lovely way to think 

And I still maintain that the lowest turnout was in the lower age group, so they plainly didn't realise it was going to affect them which is what people are now moaning about, the lower the age you go, if the stats extrapolate then the lower the turnout.

And no, I don't believe another vote now would be undemocratic, nowhere have I said that. I'm all for it.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> This gives you a list of all the members of the ERG
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Research_Group
> 
> You can spendyour spare time researching which ones are millionaires, but having looked at the list I think you'll find there are far fewer than you think!


Whether they're all millionaires is insignificant , its who & what they represent that matters. There is a reason these people are trying to push us over the no deal cliff.

The ERG represents the interests of the corrupt elite who profit from disaster capitalism. The ERG is our version of the USAs Tea Party, a cabal of ultra right wing libertarian extremists. And like the Tea Party they are a party within a party, they are extremist entryists. Made up of climate deniers who see regulations as a hindrance to corporate interests & with links to the far right. They are very dangerous set indeed.

The Greens Molly Scott Cato has been delving into their murky world. http://mollymep.org.uk/2018/07/23/the-brexit-syndicate-pr/


*The Brexit Syndicate - a new website exposing the 'Mafia-like' organisations who drove Brexit*
23 July 2018

After Jacob Rees-Mogg accused the EU of acting like the mafia [1], the criticism is reflected back on him by evidence gathered together in a new website called The Brexit Syndicate, which is launched today.

Following shocking revelations contained in the Bad Boys of Brexit website launched by Molly earlier this year, she has now turned her attention towards the 'murky network of powerful and secretive organisations' that are 'rewriting the rules of British democracy.' She has gathered these organisations together in a new website, The Brexit Syndicate, which reveals how they have set about attacking free elections, free speech and pushing an extreme free trade agenda.

Commenting on the launch of the Brexit Syndicate website, Molly said:

_"These shady organisations who drove the campaign to leave the EU, wasted no time in organising to gain the maximum advantage for themselves and their causes in the wake of the Brexit vote. From privatisation and co-option of national governments, they have moved on to writing the rules of global capitalism in favour of the 1%. In doing so, they plan to use trade treaties to eliminate the standards and protections politicians have fought for over the past four decades, subverting the democratic process to ensure it works for the few, rather than the many."_

The European Research Group (ERG), headed up by Jacob Rees-Mogg, is one of the groups featured on the website. Others include the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), the Initiative for Free Trade and far-right media outlets, as well as various tabloid newspapers.

Molly said:

_"Rees-Mogg accuses the EU or behaving like the Mafia in its negotiations with the UK. But as we expose in this website, it is actually the Brexit side that is driven by a secretive cabal of powerful and interconnected organisations._

_"The ERG is just one of a host of extremist organisations who are exercising extraordinary influence over government policy and who are seeking to manipulate our political system to their own advantage and to the detriment of the vast majority of UK citizens."_


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> The UK is not a country.


Wrong!


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> And I still maintain that the lowest turnout was in the lower age group, so they plainly didn't realise it was going to affect them which is what people are now moaning about, the lower the age you go, if the stats extrapolate then the lower the turnout.


If they didn't realise that it was going to affect them, then it's good they didn't vote.
I missed voting to go in in 1975 by a few short months, but I've had a lifetime watching us be enveloped into this protectionist, dictatorial, entity which it is today. 
I believe that people who have lived through the whole debacle must have far more balanced view than those that have never known any different


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Whether they're all millionaires is insignificant , its who & what they represent that matters. There is a reason these people are trying to push us over the no deal cliff.
> 
> The ERG represents the interests of the corrupt elite who profit from disaster capitalism. The ERG is our version of the USAs Tea Party, a cabal of ultra right wing libertarian extremists. And like the Tea Party they are a party within a party, they are extremist entryists. Made up of climate deniers who see regulations as a hindrance to corporate interests & with links to the far right. They are very dangerous set indeed.
> 
> The Greens Molly Scott Cato has been delving into their murky world. http://mollymep.org.uk/2018/07/23/the-brexit-syndicate-pr/
> 
> 
> *The Brexit Syndicate - a new website exposing the 'Mafia-like' organisations who drove Brexit*
> 23 July 2018
> 
> After Jacob Rees-Mogg accused the EU of acting like the mafia [1], the criticism is reflected back on him by evidence gathered together in a new website called The Brexit Syndicate, which is launched today.
> 
> Following shocking revelations contained in the Bad Boys of Brexit website launched by Molly earlier this year, she has now turned her attention towards the 'murky network of powerful and secretive organisations' that are 'rewriting the rules of British democracy.' She has gathered these organisations together in a new website, The Brexit Syndicate, which reveals how they have set about attacking free elections, free speech and pushing an extreme free trade agenda.
> 
> Commenting on the launch of the Brexit Syndicate website, Molly said:
> 
> _"These shady organisations who drove the campaign to leave the EU, wasted no time in organising to gain the maximum advantage for themselves and their causes in the wake of the Brexit vote. From privatisation and co-option of national governments, they have moved on to writing the rules of global capitalism in favour of the 1%. In doing so, they plan to use trade treaties to eliminate the standards and protections politicians have fought for over the past four decades, subverting the democratic process to ensure it works for the few, rather than the many."_
> 
> The European Research Group (ERG), headed up by Jacob Rees-Mogg, is one of the groups featured on the website. Others include the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), the Initiative for Free Trade and far-right media outlets, as well as various tabloid newspapers.
> 
> Molly said:
> 
> _"Rees-Mogg accuses the EU or behaving like the Mafia in its negotiations with the UK. But as we expose in this website, it is actually the Brexit side that is driven by a secretive cabal of powerful and interconnected organisations._
> 
> _"The ERG is just one of a host of extremist organisations who are exercising extraordinary influence over government policy and who are seeking to manipulate our political system to their own advantage and to the detriment of the vast majority of UK citizens."_


If you'd been following this thread properly then you'd know I was simply answering a straightforward question Cheeky asked and you could have saved yourself an awful lot of time and trouble.

The question was ..........



cheekyscrip said:


> How many real people in ERG? How many multimillionaires?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> If they didn't realise that it was going to affect them, then it's good they didn't vote.
> I missed voting to go in in 1975 by a few short months, but I've had a lifetime watching us be enveloped into this protectionist, dictatorial, entity which it is today.
> I believe that people who have lived through the whole debacle must have far more balanced view than those that have never known any different


I voted remain in 1975 and never regretted it, the EU isn't prefect and a lot of rubbish printed in the press like straight bananas ect. have made people believe what they read. The EU has done a lot of good they have helped build our roads, railways and hospitals and we have had as much money out as we put in over the years. They have given us more humans right and laws that we would never have had, if left to our own governments.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Lots of tittle tattle going on over tiny specifics. 

Mentioning dead voters, multimillionares, countries, sovereign nations (whatever it doesn't really matter in the context of the question).

Anyway I am not shocked by the result and it would have been the same if not a little better for TM if she held it at the original time it should have been held. 

Is Theresa simply trying to continuously buy more time OR is article 50 going to get invoked which will be the biggest kick in the nuts democracy has ever seen


----------



## stockwellcat.

If TM wins the vote of no confidence today she said yesterday she will have a meeting with her cabinet to decide what happens next.

@KittenKong You are not understanding the no deal. If TM says no deal it will have to be put to the House. If the EU say no deal or article 50 times out it will be no deal and parliament won't get a say. Junker said time is running out last night. Bercow ruled out the amendment to call a second referendum yesterday.

Let's see what happens later but the odds are on that Corbyn does not stand a chance and in which case he should step down as Labour Party leader or a Labour party leadership challenge should take place.


----------



## Magyarmum

Reaction from the EU as reported by France 24.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190116-time-almost-eu-leaders-react-with-dismay-uk-brexit-vote

*'Time almost up': EU leaders react with dismay to UK Brexit vote*

https://www.france24.com/en/20190116-eus-barnier-risk-no-deal-has-never-been-so-high

*EU's Barnier: Risk of 'no deal' has never been so high*


----------



## Arnie83

From the Guardian:

As well as the no-confidence motion in the government, something else has been tabled for the Commons today - two new bills by ever-busy Conservative backbencher *Dominic Grieve *seeking to bring about a second Brexit referendum.

The bills from the former attorney general call for "preparations for a referendum about the United Kingdom's future relationship with the European Union" and provide for that referendum to happen.

Last week, Grieve joined with the Lib Dem leader, Vince Cable, and the Labour MP Chuka Ummuna in publishing draft legislation on a referendum.

While Grieve last week successfully had his amendment passed to shorten the time in which May has to update MPs after losing the vote on her deal, these bills have no chance of success without official support - which is showing no signs of happening yet.

Writing in the Evening Standard on Tuesday, before May lost her vote, Grieve said:

"As a strong believer that Brexit is a very damaging mistake that becomes more obvious every day, I see sound democratic reasons for asking the electorate to confirm what it wants to do. But in doing so I entirely accept that if the choice is to leave the EU then we must do so, and both choices are now implementable."​The two choices he is referring to are May's deal and Call it all off.


----------



## Arnie83

And ...

And, talking about bills, the full text of *Nick Boles*'s EU withdrawal (number 2) bill has been published. It is also backed by fellow Tories Nicky Morgan and *Sir Oliver Letwin*, Labour's Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn, and the Lib Dem Norman Lamb. You can read it here (pdf).

Under the bill, if the Commons fails to pass a Brexit deal by 11 February, the Commons liaison committee would be asked to come up with an alternative plan by 5 March, to be put to a vote by 7 March. And if that plan were voted down, the government would then be obliged to ask the EU to extend article 50 until the end of the year.

This is designed to ensure that there could be no no-deal Brexit in 2019.

Speaking about the bill on the Today programme this morning, Letwin said it was important to come up with a plan acceptable to a majority of MPs and acceptable to the EU. He explained:

There is no point in us discussing unicorns which are items that live in fanciful forests. We have to discuss real objects.

He also criticised Theresa May for laying down firm red lines at the start of the Brexit process. He said:

"[May] put down right at the beginning of this process what she called red lines. This is not a terrain in which you can have things you will definitely never do. You have to sit down and talk and come up with a consensus. That means being much more flexible than we have been so far."​


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> He also criticised Theresa May for laying down firm red lines at the start of the Brexit process. He said:
> 
> "[May] put down right at the beginning of this process what she called red lines. This is not a terrain in which you can have things you will definitely never do. You have to sit down and talk and come up with a consensus. That means being much more flexible than we have been so far."​


I read an article a couple of weeks ago written by a chap who negotiates massive international business deals as to why (in his professional experience and opinion) the UK had gone about the Brexit negotiations totally the wrong way. It was actually very interesting, I'll see if I can find it when I get home tonight...


----------



## KittenKong

_The Very Brexit Problems _FB page:

APART FROM:

- RUNNING THROUGH A CORN FIELD
- STATING THAT REMAINING WAS IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST, THEN STATING THAT LEAVING WITH MY DEAL IS IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST
- SHOWING WEAK LEADERSHIP
- HOLDING HANDS WITH TRUMP
- NOT LISTENING
-VOTING AGAINST BANKING REFORMS
- TALKING IN MEANINGLESS SLOGANS
- BUYING THE DUP FOR £1BN
- NOT LISTENING
- USING BLACKMAIL AS POLITICAL TOOL
- BROKERING A DEAL NOBODY REALLY WANTS
- FAILING TO CREATE CONSENSUS
- POLICE CUTS
- RUNNING TOWARDS BRICK WALLS
- DRAWING RED LINES AND THEN BENDING THEM
- NOT LISTENING
- UNITING THE HOUSE FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS
- VOTING AGAINST ACTING ON SOARING ENERGY BILLS
- CALLING A DISASTROUS ELECTION
- APPOINTING BORIS JOHNSON AS FOREIGN SECRETARY
- TRYING TO BLOCK PARLIAMENT FROM HAVING A SAY IN MATTERS
- NOT ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS PUT TO ME
- APPOINTING BAD ADVISERS
- KICKING CANS DOWN THE ROAD
- NOT LISTENING
- GOING OVER THE HEADS OF APPOINTED STAFF
- SNOOPING ON EMAILS, TEXTS AND INTERNET HISTORY
- UPSETTING THE MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE, INCLUDING MY OWN PARTY
- NOT LISTENING
- VOTING AGAINST INCREASING THE TAX RATE APPLIED TO INCOME OVER £150,000
- CREATING A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT
- SCHOOL CUTS
- VOTING AGAINST BUILDING 100,000 AFFORDABLE HOMES
- U-TURNS
- VOTING AGAINST HIGHER BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SEVERELY DISABLED
- NOT LISTENING
- VOTING FOR THE BEDROOM TAX
- VOTING AGAINST THE MANSION TAX FOR THE WEALTHY
- RUNNING THE COUNTRY AS A SEMI-DICTATOR
- CUTTING SOCIAL CARE BUDGET
- PLANNING TO SCRAP HUMAN RIGHTS ACT
- PLEDGING TO BRING BACK FOX HUNTING
- NOT LISTENING
- NOT LISTENING
- NOT LISTENING
..................
..................
..................

WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG????


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> _The Very Brexit Problems _FB page:
> 
> APART FROM:
> 
> - RUNNING THROUGH A CORN FIELD
> - STATING THAT REMAINING WAS IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST, THEN STATING THAT LEAVING WITH MY DEAL IS IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST
> - SHOWING WEAK LEADERSHIP
> - HOLDING HANDS WITH TRUMP
> - NOT LISTENING
> -VOTING AGAINST BANKING REFORMS
> - TALKING IN MEANINGLESS SLOGANS
> - BUYING THE DUP FOR £1BN
> - NOT LISTENING
> - USING BLACKMAIL AS POLITICAL TOOL
> - BROKERING A DEAL NOBODY REALLY WANTS
> - FAILING TO CREATE CONSENSUS
> - POLICE CUTS
> - RUNNING TOWARDS BRICK WALLS
> - DRAWING RED LINES AND THEN BENDING THEM
> - NOT LISTENING
> - UNITING THE HOUSE FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS
> - VOTING AGAINST ACTING ON SOARING ENERGY BILLS
> - CALLING A DISASTROUS ELECTION
> - APPOINTING BORIS JOHNSON AS FOREIGN SECRETARY
> - TRYING TO BLOCK PARLIAMENT FROM HAVING A SAY IN MATTERS
> - NOT ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS PUT TO ME
> - APPOINTING BAD ADVISERS
> - KICKING CANS DOWN THE ROAD
> - NOT LISTENING
> - GOING OVER THE HEADS OF APPPOINTED STAFF
> - SNOOPING ON EMAILS, TEXTS AND INTERNET HISTORY
> - UPSETTING THE MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE, INCUDING MY OWN PARTY
> - NOT LISTENING
> - VOTING AGAINS INCREASING THE TAX RATE APPLIED TO INCOME OVER £150,000
> - CREATING A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT
> - SCHOOL CUTS
> - VOTING AGAINST BUILDING 100,000 AFFORDABLE HOMES
> - U-TURNS
> - VOTING AGAINST HIGHER BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SEVERLEY DISABLED
> - NOT LISTENING
> - VOTING FOR THE BEDROOM TAX
> - VOTING AGAINST THE MANSION TAX FOR THE WEALTHY
> - RUNNING THE COUNTRY AS A SEMI-DICTATOR
> - CUTTING SOCIAL CARE BUDGET
> - PLANNING TO SCRAP HUMAN RIGHTS ACT
> - PLEDGING TO BRING BACK FOX HUNTING
> - NOT LISTENING
> - NOT LISTENING
> - NOT LISTENING
> ..................
> ..................
> ..................
> 
> WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG????


This doesn't really advance the conversation...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I read an article a couple of weeks ago written by a chap who negotiates massive international business deals as to why (in his professional experience and opinion) the UK had gone about the Brexit negotiations totally the wrong way. It was actually very interesting, I'll see if I can find it when I get home tonight...


That would be interesting. I hope Mrs May reads it . 

How do you and @Arnie83 feel about the result. I expect it gives hope of another referendum or peoples vote ?

I was hoping it would be all over, we need to move on but really I'm a don't know now .



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 388595


haven't you posted this before ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 388595


Not really.
John Bercow denied the house an amendment for a second referendum last night. So moving on..


----------



## KittenKong

"kimthecat said:


> haven't you posted this before ?


Might have posted something similar but not this one, perhaps the Tweet asking if May's defeat was over 52%?


----------



## Jesthar

I may have to buy this!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Not really.
> John Bercow denied the house an amendment for a second referendum last night. So moving on..


A second referendum yes as the "people have spoken" with a narrow leave victory in 2016.

But Parliament have spoken last night with a decisive rejection of the May plan and will probably get to vote on it again!

Democracy? My a***...


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> This doesn't really advance the conversation...


So far today our two most fanatical remainers between them have posted 7 comments from total twats on Twitter, plus one totally unnecessary diatribe about an alleged conspiracy.

As you quite rightly say these posts have contributed zilch ... nada ... nincz ... nowt to the conversation


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> I may have to buy this!
> 
> View attachment 388597
> View attachment 388599


Alice in Brexitland is good but published in 2017 so not up to date. I gave my sister `five on Brexit Island` but haven`t read it myself so no idea if it any good or not.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> But Parliament have spoken last night with a decisive rejection of the May plan and will probably get to vote on it again


In no way will they be able to vote on that deal that was put forward again. Only if it is revamped and started afresh will a vote on it be put forward


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> So far today our two most fanatical remainers between them have posted 7 comments from total twats on Twitter, plus one totally unnecessary diatribe about an alleged conspiracy.
> 
> As you quite rightly say these posts have contributed zilch ... nada ... nincz ... nowt to the conversation


think I'm on ignore so it's like shouting into a void and talking to my own echos


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> think I'm on ignore so it's like shouting into a void and talking to my own echos


You should be privileged you are on ignore. He tells me he has put me on ignore and then answers me. So I feel obliged to respond to him


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> How do you and @Arnie83 feel about the result. I expect it gives hope of another referendum or peoples vote ?


I am on record as being in favour of a new referendum, but even were I not biased that way I'm not sure I can see a viable alternative right now.

The size of the defeat last night suggests very strongly that there really is no future for May's deal _in Parliament_. The only option against which the Commons is more united is No Deal, and moves are rightly under way to prevent its possibility.

With little time left (thanks to May) there doesn't seem to me to be a possibility of discussing and agreeing a way forward on Norway or Canada plus, minus or whatever. And a 'managed No Deal' is also simply not possible in the time frame, even were it possible at all (which I don't think it is unless you throw NI overboard).

I honestly don't see a way forward within Parliament. They're stuck. So having got themselves into a situation where they have run out of time and can not agree a way forward, I really can't see any option but for them to go back to the People and let them make the definitive decision of which the MPs have proved themselves incapable. And it should be definitive.

Although I am aware that it would cause fury among the extremists, I hope that the question would be a straight choice between May's Deal (however bad, it's the only one on the table) and Remain.

And if that _is_ the route, then I hope there would be binding Parliamentary agreements to do something about the issues that led to the Leave vote in 2016 (other than just the fact of our membership), rather than succumbing to the temptation to just put it behind us and forget about it.


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 Thanks for your answer . 
We are indeed stuck.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*All options ruled out*
16th January 2019








*THE UK's political leaders have ruled out the Brexit deal, a no-deal Brexit, a second referendum, a general election, remaining in the EU and continuing the current situation. *

The prime minister and the leader of the opposition have agreed that none of the options available to them are tenable and must all be dismissed before any progress can be made.

Jeremy Corbyn said: "The British people are sick of their humdrum range of limited choices.

"Nobody wants a second referendum. Nobody wants a no-deal exit. The only deal on the table has been resoundingly rejected, and though I claim to want a general election I'd actually rather just take over but there's not the support.

"But I can say categorically that we reject all the options so far raised, and indeed anything confined by the arbitrary limits of the merely possible.

"Perhaps we could exist in a quantum state both in and out of the EU. Perhaps Britain splits into a thousand warring factions. Perhaps we wink out of reality to return for one day every hundred years.

"Either way, we're resolutely opposed to doing anything that we could actually do. Your move, universe."


----------



## Magyarmum

Just received by email from the EU Commission Press Release.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-442_en.htm

*Speeches by First Vice-President Frans Timmermans and Chief Negotiator Michel Barnier on behalf of President Juncker at the Plenary session of the European Parliament on the occasion of the debate on the UK's withdrawal from the EU*


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I am on record as being in favour of a new referendum, but even were I not biased that way I'm not sure I can see a viable alternative right now.
> 
> The size of the defeat last night suggests very strongly that there really is no future for May's deal _in Parliament_. The only option against which the Commons is more united is No Deal, and moves are rightly under way to prevent its possibility.
> 
> With little time left (thanks to May) there doesn't seem to me to be a possibility of discussing and agreeing a way forward on Norway or Canada plus, minus or whatever. And a 'managed No Deal' is also simply not possible in the time frame, even were it possible at all (which I don't think it is unless you throw NI overboard).
> 
> I honestly don't see a way forward within Parliament. They're stuck. So having got themselves into a situation where they have run out of time and can not agree a way forward, I really can't see any option but for them to go back to the People and let them make the definitive decision of which the MPs have proved themselves incapable. And it should be definitive.
> 
> Although I am aware that it would case fury among the extremists, I hope that the question would be a straight choice between May's Deal (however bad, it's the only one on the table) and Remain.
> 
> And if that _is_ the route, then I hope there would be binding Parliamentary agreements to do something about the issues that led to the Leave vote in 2016 (other than just the fact of our membership), rather than succumbing to the temptation to just put it behind us and forget about it.


Gross incompetence from both sides of the house, pure and simple.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You should be privileged you are on ignore. He tells me he has put me on ignore and then answers me. So I feel obliged to respond to him


Don't know if this is referring to me or not but it's very easy to see ignored posts. Besides, Email notifications always contain ignored comments as well!

I think it goes for a lot of us to say we have people on ignore yet still respond to their posts. I know I'm not the only one.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> So far today our two most fanatical remainers between them have posted 7 comments from total twats on Twitter, plus one totally unnecessary diatribe about an alleged conspiracy.
> 
> As you quite rightly say these posts have contributed zilch ... nada ... nincz ... nowt to the conversation


Guess the same could be said when we see posts from Britain First and SY-L put up by some Brexiters, especially during the 2016 referendum.

I unfriended a couple of people on FB for doing that.


----------



## AlexPed2393

:Bag


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Agreed, but I feel the media would've destroyed David Milliband as they destroyed his brother


If David had been made leader of the labour party instead of his creepy back stabbing brother, then the Labour party would have been electable, would have won the election and Cameron would have been an also run.

Hell, even I would have voted for David against slimy Cameron. The guy is eminently more honest likable and sensible than the vast majority of those in parliament

However, I'm pleased that Cameron got in,now that we have all this happening


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Very true. Had The Sun backed remaining in the EU we wouldn't be in this mess.


I would have voted as I did regardless of what _The Sun _(and others) suggested and so would everyone I know ._ . ._ tho' I do not profess to ''know'' everyone on this forum.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Or she just states the bleedin' obvious.


And yet, hard to believe as it is, a lot of people disagree with her



MilleD said:


> Who's that idiot?


Hes quite a few things including a campaigner for social justice & environmental justice.



Magyarmum said:


> The idiot is called chunkymark and a true representative of the British people ...............................................
> 
> well just 4444 of them!


How on earth do you know he represents just 4444 of the British people?

God I hope that isn't the total number who care about social and environmental justice or this sh***y country is in a worse state than even I imagined.



MilleD said:


> "Many" who voted leave will now be dead? What a lovely way to think
> 
> And I still maintain that the lowest turnout was in the lower age group, so they plainly didn't realise it was going to affect them which is what people are now moaning about, the lower the age you go, if the stats extrapolate then the lower the turnout.
> 
> And no, I don't believe another vote now would be undemocratic, nowhere have I said that. I'm all for it.


You seem to be more offended by words than by actual deeds. Would it have been more pc of me to say 'passed away'?

Leave won a rigged election by a tiny minority.










But as we agree another vote wouldn't be undemocratic, I'll leave our differences there.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> If you'd been following this thread properly then you'd know I was simply answering a straightforward question Cheeky asked and you could have saved yourself an awful lot of time and trouble.
> 
> The question was ..........


Its time well spent, so no trouble. The more people who know the truth about the dangerous ERG extremists the better chance we have of salvaging this country.


----------



## stuaz

Calvine said:


> I would have voted as I did regardless of what _The Sun _(and others) suggested and so would everyone I know ._ . ._ tho' I do not profess to ''know'' everyone on this forum.


I thought the Referendum only won because of The Sun newspaper! You know that dying form of media that seems to control the UK and convinced all to vote for Leave....

Sorry had my tinfoil hat on for a second then.... back to reality.....


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> think I'm on ignore so it's like shouting into a void and talking to my own echos


Speaking of ignore, I'm wondering if you have me on it? or maybe you just over looked my post in response to yours?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> If David had been made leader of the labour party instead of his creepy back stabbing brother, then the Labour party would have been electable, would have won the election and Cameron would have been an also run.
> 
> Hell, even I would have voted for David against slimy Cameron. The guy is eminently more honest likable and sensible than the vast majority of those in parliament
> *
> However, I'm pleased that Cameron got in,now that we have all this happenin*g


Yes the country has never been in better shape.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> You seem to be more offended by words than by actual deeds. Would it have been more pc of me to say 'passed away'?


I'm not normally, but as both my Mom and my Step Dad died since the referendum it was a little close to the bone.



noushka05 said:


> But as we agree another vote wouldn't be undemocratic, I'll leave our differences there.


Agreed.


----------



## noushka05

Sterling work 

*Led By Donkeys*‏ @ByDonkeys 5h5 hours ago
A busy night on the Brexit frontline. We've covered Dover in the historic quotes of the people responsible for this chaos.

Britain is a nation #LedByDonkeys.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Speaking of ignore, I'm wondering if you have me on it? or maybe you just over looked my post in response to yours?


Oh no, there are just so many posts since that one I felt like I'd be dragging up a topic from the deep again, and we were going round in circles so leaving it was best


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I'm not normally, but as both my Mom and my Step Dad died since the referendum it was a little close to the bone.
> 
> Agreed.


I'm so sorry for sad losses MD & truly sorry my words came across so insensitive x


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> I thought the Referendum only won because of The Sun newspaper! You know that dying form of media that seems to control the UK and convinced all to vote for Leave....
> 
> Sorry had my tinfoil hat on for a second then.... back to reality.....


The media does have a significant influence though. I seem to recall there is a significant correlation between which side the Murdoch empire chooses to back, and which side wins - if memory serves the Sun, in particular, hasn't backed a loser since the Eighties, possibly earlier.

I did manage to find a quote from a journalist about an interview with Murdoch on the subject:

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That's easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."

Which is a level of influence I, for one, would rather one man did not have.

Please note, this post is not claiming that a) all Sun readers voted Leave, b) all Sun readers are thick, c) all Leave voters read the Sun, d) all Leave voters are thick. e) Leave voters are not capable of independent research f) any of the other usual generalisation accusations posts about how the media influences things tend to garner. Thank you


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn from the moment he opened his mouth today lost the no confidence vote today.


----------



## AlexPed2393

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn from the moment he opened his mouth today lost the no confidence vote today.


Corbyn is so bad at looking at the bigger picture and focusing on irrelevant topics that he will never get the support he needs to be PM. In my opinion


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I'm so sorry for sad losses MD & truly sorry my words came across so insensitive x


That's ok. I'm just a bit oversensitive about it xx


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> New Corbyn from the moment he opened his mouth today lost the no confidence vote today.


Missed that, @stockwellcat.. What did he say?


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> If David had been made leader of the labour party instead of his creepy back stabbing brother, then the Labour party would have been electable, would have won the election and Cameron would have been an also run.


It's a Yes from me for David , I was gutted when his brother stabbed him in the back .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> It's a Yes from me for David , I was gutted when his brother stabbed him in the back .


Exactly.
I am sorry but regardless how appalling May might be Corbyn - whipping his party to push for Article 50 , not even allow to vote according to their constituencies, sabotaging Remain, rejecting Second Referendum will not get much support in GE and not much sympathy among MPs.

Please get Keir as a Labour leader !!!
Corbyn lost last GE against a ghastly opponent!!!

Labour needs first a coherent Brexit Deal as alternative or support Remain or at least Second Referendum!

If I were to vote in GE now and didn't obviously vote for Tories what I am to vote for?

We might have no confidence in May but Labour should realise it does not mean confidence in Corbyn.
I have confidence in a few Labour leaders, I am not a Tory supporter, but to win GE Labour needs a new man.

Ed might have been lovely, but backstabbing and really weird looking.

Elections are not won by devout voters, but by undecided.

Cameron was not looking weird. Hint?

Corbyn comes across as only really interested in GE.
Brexit or Remain.

I think at the moment Britain can only agree that they cannot agree on anything, but No Deal is worse than else but as they cannot agree


----------



## stuaz

Jesthar said:


> The media does have a significant influence though. I seem to recall there is a significant correlation between which side the Murdoch empire chooses to back, and which side wins - if memory serves the Sun, in particular, hasn't backed a loser since the Eighties, possibly earlier.
> 
> I did manage to find a quote from a journalist about an interview with Murdoch on the subject:
> 
> "I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That's easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."
> 
> Which is a level of influence I, for one, would rather one man did not have.
> 
> Please note, this post is not claiming that a) all Sun readers voted Leave, b) all Sun readers are thick, c) all Leave voters read the Sun, d) all Leave voters are thick. e) Leave voters are not capable of independent research f) any of the other usual generalisation accusations posts about how the media influences things tend to garner. Thank you


Media to a degree has an influence but I don't think newspapers in particular have the same level of influence they once had, compared to TV news (eg. Sky News (one of his former media platforms) and other news outlets, particularly social media... but I guess thats a different conversation!

I guess the real question is, is Murdoch and his media empire really convincing people or are they just really good at working out which way things will go? Not sure how that could be worked out ether way.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Gibraltar mentioned again by Pedro Sanchez, Spain is ready to grab the first opportunity...
If No Deal supporters are happy to sacrifice peace in NI what is the hope for our little place?

People really worried here...
Will Gibraltar be sold for a better deal?

Or hard border?

One poorly cat needs his vet...


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I would have voted as I did regardless of what _The Sun _(and others) suggested and so would everyone I know ._ . ._ tho' I do not profess to ''know'' everyone on this forum.


Of course I appreciate that, in the same sense I was and still am 100% behind the EU long before any referendum was announced, so I was hardly going to be taken in by either 2016 campaign was I.

Butt very many do look towards papers like The Sun for what they believe to be facts. The paper's own survey revealed 70% of their readership abide by "The Sun Says" columns.

Just look at past General Elections. Thatcher won a landslide in 1983 despite only Labour backing an EEC referendum. Oh the irony!

Then 1997 Blair wins a landslide.

People like you and me are the minority Calvine. The majority are what could be called "floaters". It's them who make the difference. Their papers tell them who to vote for, they follow them and abide to their papers, the BBC etc. like sheep.


----------



## Elles

I find angry men quite frightening. Jeremy Corbyn was selected as leader of the opposition and MP and is paid to do a job. There is no job that excuses a man becoming angry and losing his temper until he can barely speak. This kind of behaviour belongs in the past, if at all. It’s not for today, with the accusations of abuse and #metoo and the controversy over a Gillette advert. Not for any man, but particularly not a man in his position. Someone needs to speak to him about it and the Labour Party desperately need a new leader and a different direction.


----------



## Elles

What makes you think you’re right and the majority wrong?


----------



## kimthecat

Just seen a Labour political broadcast at the end of ITV London news. They don't waste any time ! Dont see how it will help Brexit or the UKhaving a GE. 
They're certainly taking advantage of a crisis.


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Just seen a Labour political broadcast at the end of ITV London news. They don't waste any time ! Dont see how it will help Brexit or the UKhaving a GE.
> They're certainly taking advantage of a crisis.


*And I don't,t blame them.☺*


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Just seen a Labour political broadcast at the end of ITV London news. They don't waste any time ! Dont see how it will help Brexit or the UKhaving a GE.
> They're certainly taking advantage of a crisis.


 There was a conservative party political broadcast last week. I am not sure if much can help the UK at the moment but although the government will win the vote tonight I can see a GE happening sooner rather than later.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Ayes 306
Noes 325

Confidence in the Government


----------



## stockwellcat.

Step down Corbyn


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes = 306

Noes = 325

She's won the vote!


----------



## kimthecat

That was close. What a waste of time it was. A day lost when the next brexit step needs urgent discussion.


----------



## Jonescat

Of course she has but can they make her abandon no deal?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> That was close. What a waste of time it was. A day lost when the next brexit step needs urgent discussion.


Another day less before 29th March 2019


----------



## stockwellcat.

So TM is now tabling a motion on Monday from cross house discussions which should have taken place on day 1.

Still Labour should put a no confidence vote against Corbyn after tonights defeat.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I hate to admit Gove spoke well. I see him as possible next Tory leader scoring points already.
Corbyn is someone great for Union leader but he will never sell it to undecided.

But Unions support him no matter what.

In some ways both May and Corbyn are similar. Don’t listen, cannot bring their parties together and cling to their seats, totally inflexible.

I wish both were gone.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Brenda was right




May didn't need to call a GE. Thank God.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I hate to admit Gove spoke well. I see him as possible next Tory leader scoring points already.
> Corbyn is someone great for Union leader but he will never sell it to undecided.
> 
> But Unions support him no matter what.
> 
> In some ways both May and Corbyn are similar. Don't listen, cannot bring their parties together and cling to their seats, totally inflexible.


Get rid of Corbyn now he is useless. He is deadwood now floating in the water.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Get rid of Corbyn now he is useless. He is deadwood now floating in the water.


Get rid of them both for pit sake.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Get rid of them both for pit sake.


TM is safe and so is her Government thanks to deadwood on the opposite benches.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Brenda was right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May didn't need to call a GE. Thank God.


and it only cost us 1 billion pounds


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> and it only cost us 1 billion pounds


We need all the money now. So TM is safe and so is her Government. Corbyn is deadwood.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jonescat said:


> Of course she has but can they make her abandon no deal?


They cannot make her abandon no deal. Here is why. Time might run out. The EU might say no deal. So TM cannot take this off the table.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> We need all the money now. So TM is safe and so is her Government. Corbyn is deadwood.


If May had an ounce of decency after yesterday she would have resigned.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> If May had an ounce of decency after yesterday she would have resigned.


She doesn't have to. Her party found confidence in her and so did parliament. Corbyn on the other hand should step down.


----------



## Jonescat

Why? He is following conference policy as he must. She should step down because she failed. It needs someone new to able to delay a50 and get a parliamentary consensus in place before they vote on it again. Should gave done that a while back but we are where we are.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> She doesn't have to. Her party found confidence in her and so did parliament. Corbyn on the other hand should step down.


Anyone who has a loss like she did last night, the biggest in modern history should step down, it doesn't matter that the party and the votes she bought, won for her today.


----------



## stockwellcat.

She won the vote of no confidence in both her party and parliament she does not need to step down. She is PM until 2022.


----------



## Jonescat

Procedurally true but shows a lack of respect and a deep selfishness imo.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sad day for remainers isn't it. 
TM is now in charge again after less than 24 hours of messing around.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Sad day for remainers isn't it.
> TM is now in charge again after less than 24 hours of messing around.


Must be a sad day for you seeing as you have, on a number of occasions, bewailed having ` Remainer May` in charge!


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> Must be a sad day for you seeing as you have, on a number of occasions, bewailed having ` Remainer May` in charge!


Well it is this deal or no deal. I am thinking of you the remainers


----------



## MollySmith

stockwellcat. said:


> She doesn't have to. Her party found confidence in her and so did parliament. Corbyn on the other hand should step down.


Beats me how. Yesterday voting against and today expressing confidence.. it's party politics first and total hypocrisy. Article 50 could stilll be revoked and several other options. Corbyn couldn't have done anything but call no confidence. I completely get that you are anti Labour and Corbyn as I am completely sick of May's smug mug and the wretched Tories, but nobody has coated themselves in glory here.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone who has a loss like she did last night, the biggest in modern history should step down, it doesn't matter that the party and the votes she bought, won for her today.


I kind of feel this could be a weekly event until March. Quite how or what she does next is based on myth. A mythical concept that there is room to negotiate which makes me wonder what she's been doing for two years and more talks. In truth this government should not be in charge. It's only a 19 vote majority which is pretty flimsy.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it is this deal or no deal. I am thinking of you the remainers


I did not vote remain and I think we are past the `this deal or no deal` stage


----------



## MollySmith

Anyone miss Donald Trump leading the news?!


----------



## rona

599 pages and all that stopped it going through was the backstop. Not the fact that there is a backstop, but that we have no say when it ends. 
So in essence, May has pulled it together apart from one aspect, one aspect that no one seems to be able to come up with an answer for....................... I wouldn't call that failure 
Why the EU can't set a date is beyond me. Would save all these shenanigans


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> Beats me how. Yesterday voting against and today expressing confidence.. it's party politics first and total hypocrisy. Article 50 could stilll be revoked and several other options. Corbyn couldn't have done anything but call no confidence. I completely get that you are anti Labour and Corbyn as I am completely sick of May's smug mug and the wretched Tories, but nobody has coated themselves in glory here.


Indeed it is all party politics, they were just saying something about Rees-Mogg declaring he would rather be tied to the EU than allow Labour to take control of parliament ( wasn`t entirely listening so may have that wrong but that is what it sounded like) Despite todays vote May is far from commanding confidence in her own party let alone in the HoC.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> I kind of feel this could be a weekly event until March. Quite how or what she does next is based on myth. A mythical concept that there is room to negotiate which makes me wonder what she's been doing for two years and more talks. In truth this government should not be in charge*. It's only a 19 vote majority which is pretty flimsy*.


If the brought votes had voted the other way she would have lost by one vote.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> 599 pages and all that stopped it going through was the backstop. Not the fact that there is a backstop, but that we have no say when it ends.
> So in essence, May has pulled it together apart from one aspect, one aspect that no one seems to be able to come up with an answer for....................... I wouldn't call that failure
> Why the EU can't set a date is beyond me. Would save all these shenanigans


Maybe because there is no date to end Good Friday Agreement?

Same for Gibraltar - should there be a date Spain gets it? As it was with Hong Kong?

There cannot be a date for hard border in NI or Gibraltar.
Maybe I simplified it but it boils down to that.
Why it is not obvious?
NI and Gibraltar depend on the open frontier.
No one there wants a Wall on neither side.

It is utterly selfish to demand hard border there.

That is a betrayal of NI and Gibraltar.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Sad day for remainers isn't it.
> TM is now in charge again after less than 24 hours of messing around.


So we can expect her to quietly implement her Brexit plan, just as I predicted.

A sad day for supporters of a no deal Brexit too I would've thought.


----------



## kimthecat

Just watched the programme about Chavez on BBC 2 Revolutions in Ruins and seeing Corbyn saying the man was inspirational :Vomit 
Perhaps Chavez intentions were good but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 
God knows what damage Corbyn et al will do to the UK . We need a party that will repair the damage done by the Tories not destroy it further.

What struck me was how a like he was to Trump. His mannerisms and the way he was rude to the Press and anyone who opposed him. At opposite ends of the political spectrum but so alike . Both Dictators.


----------



## kimthecat

*Tom Peck*‏Verified account @*tompeck* 4h4 hours ago
Whenever Corbyn is asked why he invited *Hamas*, Hezbollah or the IRA to the House of Commons, or wanted to post the novichok samples, he consistently says it is "to keep the dialogue open." 
Anyway tonight he's refused to go to 10 Downing Street to talk to Theresa May.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> *Tom Peck*‏Verified account @*tompeck* 4h4 hours ago
> Whenever Corbyn is asked why he invited *Hamas*, Hezbollah or the IRA to the House of Commons, or wanted to post the novichok samples, he consistently says it is "to keep the dialogue open."
> Anyway tonight he's refused to go to 10 Downing Street to talk to Theresa May.


Silly man.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn is unlikely going to seek a second referendum as well.

https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> If David had been made leader of the labour party instead of his creepy back stabbing brother, then the Labour party would have been electable, would have won the election and Cameron would have been an also run.
> 
> Hell, even I would have voted for David against slimy Cameron. The guy is eminently more honest likable and sensible than the vast majority of those in parliament
> 
> However, I'm pleased that Cameron got in,now that we have all this happening





kimthecat said:


> It's a Yes from me for David , I was gutted when his brother stabbed him in the back .


Its fascinating that people who claim to hate Blair say they would vote for David Miliband also tarnished by the Iraq war. Extermination of our badgers & the tories brutal austerity policies were enough for me to vote for labour whoever the leader was.

Its always been policies over personalities for me.



stuaz said:


> Media to a degree has an influence but I don't think newspapers in particular have the same level of influence they once had, compared to TV news (eg. Sky News (one of his former media platforms) and other news outlets, particularly social media... but I guess thats a different conversation!
> 
> I guess the real question is, is Murdoch and his media empire really convincing people or are they just really good at working out which way things will go? Not sure how that could be worked out ether way.


Murdoch media is very influential here in the USA & in Australia. You can see that the spin & lies his media pumps out is regurgitated by a large section of the public.

The Leveson Inquiry exposed a lot. We know from it that Murdoch met with Blair to check him out a long time before Blair was elected, in the same way that Murdoch checked out Margaret Thatcher. He wanted to be certain that Blair would compromise his so called principles to accommodate the wealthy and the powerful. Murdoch only backs certain types of politicians who are ultimately willing to sacrifice their principals.



Magyarmum said:


> Ayes = 306
> 
> Noes = 325
> 
> She's won the vote!





stockwellcat. said:


> TM is safe and so is her Government thanks to deadwood on the opposite benches.


Saved by the magic money tree and £1bn, or roughly 45,000 new nurses.

(David Schneider)



kimthecat said:


> Just watched the programme about Chavez on BBC 2 Revolutions in Ruins and seeing Corbyn saying the man was inspirational :Vomit
> Perhaps Chavez intentions were good but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> God knows wh*at damage Corbyn et al will do to the UK* . We need a party that will repair the damage done by the Tories not destroy it further.
> 
> What struck me was how a like he was to Trump. His mannerisms and the way he was rude to the Press and anyone who opposed him. At opposite ends of the political spectrum but so alike . *Both Dictators.*


Says someone who supports brexit which had brought this country to the greatest crisis in living memory

Mays rhetoric & ideology is akin to Trump's & both are authoritarions. But never let facts get in the way of the smears.



kimthecat said:


> *Tom Peck*‏Verified account @*tompeck* 4h4 hours ago
> Whenever Corbyn is asked why he invited *Hamas*, Hezbollah or the IRA to the House of Commons, or wanted to post the novichok samples, he consistently says it is "to keep the dialogue open."
> Anyway tonight he's refused to go to 10 Downing Street to talk to Theresa May.


Good example of how the media influences opinion lol

What he actually said was there was no point talking to her *unless* she removes a no deal from the table.

And he is right.

.



rona said:


> 599 pages and *all *that stopped it going through was the backstop. Not the fact that there is a backstop, but that we have no say when it ends.
> So in essence, May has pulled it together apart from one aspect, one aspect that no one seems to be able to come up with an answer for....................... I wouldn't call that failure
> Why the EU can't set a date is beyond me. Would save all these shenanigans


_*All* that stopped it?_ . The Irish border has always been the elephant in the room. How can people STILL not know this?

We can't be so selfish as to jeopardise peace in NI. Only the lunatic fringe of the tory party are rooting to bin the backstop.

Is it deregulation of our standards you're after ?? Do you want to further destroy this countries reputation?

https://www.fairobserver.com/region...n-brexit-deal-no-deal-world-news-today-29083/


----------



## noushka05

TheresaMay claims brexit must be pursued as it's the will of the people,
But what people now want on is not the same as 3 years ago:

Remain v No Deal:

Remain: 58% 
No Deal: 42%

Remain v May's Deal:

Remain: 63% 
Govt Deal: 37%

[From @YouGov poll, 21Dec-4Jan Sample size: 25,000]
(Richard Corbett)


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> TheresaMay claims brexit must be pursued as it's the will of the people,
> But what people now want on is not the same as 3 years ago:
> 
> Remain v No Deal:
> 
> Remain: 58%
> No Deal: 42%
> 
> Remain v May's Deal:
> 
> Remain: 63%
> Govt Deal: 37%
> 
> [From @YouGov poll, 21Dec-4Jan Sample size: 25,000]
> (Richard Corbett)


----------



## stockwellcat.

A cross party of MP's are meeting today to brainstorm. Options are:

Pursue May's deal in the hope the EU will renegotiate (even though they said they won't).
Canada Style Deal (Tusk Offered this and said that EU Leaders would accept this)
Norway Option
Corbyn is refusing to attend.


----------



## noushka05

David Schneider:

Theresa May still only talking to Leavers, still ignoring Remainers, still talking about this mythical "overwhelming majority" that wants us to get on with it, still saying it's time to act in the national interest without admitting that the national interest is to stay in the EU


----------



## noushka05

I wonder what power mad May will do Will she put the interests of the UK first?? Or hold office will she allow a tiny bunch of extremists dictate our path?

*Robert Peston*‏:
_Confirmed: @theresa_may would have lost confidence vote if DUP had voted with the opposition. DUP has the power of life and death over her.

Which means that if she wants to remain PM, she has to persuade EU27 leaders to drop or time-limit the backstop_


----------



## noushka05

*Laura Kuenssberg*‏: 'S_he's deluded. She never changes her mind and cannot conceive others might. Or they may not agree with her.' - ouch, from one former minister who used to stand up for May.

..............................................._


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> 599 pages and all that stopped it going through was the backstop. Not the fact that there is a backstop, but that we have no say when it ends.
> So in essence, May has pulled it together apart from one aspect, one aspect that no one seems to be able to come up with an answer for....................... I wouldn't call that failure
> Why the EU can't set a date is beyond me. Would save all these shenanigans


Nail on the head.

The EU has negotiated in bad faith from the off making the red herring border issue a stumbling block. Lest anyone forget, the backstop is needed only in the event that we cannot agree a trade deal. So they spend two years arguing about the backstop; time which could have been spent putting the trade deal together which would obviate the need for the damn backstop. Not even the most stupid of bureaucrats could think this a smart approach. No... this wasn't stupid, it was mendacious and malevolent.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> 599 pages and all that stopped it going through was the backstop. Not the fact that there is a backstop, but that we have no say when it ends.
> So in essence, May has pulled it together apart from one aspect, one aspect that no one seems to be able to come up with an answer for....................... I wouldn't call that failure
> Why the EU can't set a date is beyond me. Would save all these shenanigans


The backstop was certainly the major factor, and has generated the most vitriol, but the ERG types have also been saying they are unhappy with the shared 'rule book' and 'building on' the customs arrangement because it sounds suspiciously like we are heading for being rule takers and being in the customs union by any other name in order to secure mostly free movement of goods. Whether they would have voted for the deal even without the backstop issue is questionable.

And the reason the EU can't set a date to end the backstop arrangement is that it would no longer be a backstop. What happens if the technology to avoid a hard border has not been invented or implemented when that date is reached? To be a backstop, it has to be there until there is something to replace it.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Lots of tittle tattle going on over tiny specifics.
> 
> Mentioning dead voters, multimillionares, countries, sovereign nations (whatever it doesn't really matter in the context of the question).
> 
> Anyway I am not shocked by the result and it would have been the same if not a little better for TM if she held it at the original time it should have been held.
> 
> Is Theresa simply trying to continuously buy more time OR is article 50 going to get invoked which will be t*he biggest kick in the nuts democracy has ever see*n


The biggest kick in the nuts our democracy has ever seen was a gerrymandered referendum, subverted by hostile entities & based on a tissue of lies.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> Step down Corbyn


*I think he has held his own very well. *


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Nail on the head.
> 
> The EU has negotiated in bad faith from the off making the red herring border issue a stumbling block. * Lest anyone forget, the backstop is needed only in the event that we cannot agree a trade deal.* So they spend two years arguing about the backstop; time which could have been spent putting the trade deal together which would obviate the need for the damn backstop. Not even the most stupid of bureaucrats could think this a smart approach. No... this wasn't stupid, it was mendacious and malevolent.


But not just any old trade deal. It would have to be one that obviated the need for any checks on the border. May's Red Lines included leaving both the Single Market and the Customs Union, membership of which is necessary to obviate the need for any checks on the border. And therein - incompatible UK Red Lines - lies the problem.


----------



## Dave S

I don't usually get involved in political arguments but I am getting so frustrated about our politicians and the way they are abusing the privilege of representing us - the people who elected them.

TM is not be the best person to lead the country, BJ certainly is not, the country under JC would be a step back into the 18th century.

If JC and the labour party will not talk to TM whilst there is a no deal option which could become a reality then what signal does that give. They are behaving like petulant children who sulk until they get their own way.

For God's sake I wish they would all grow up and have respect for us, for it us, the common people who will be hardest hit by a political stall. Either stay in or get out, just agree to do something positive and get on with it.

After all, they, the politicians, would not care if due to their constant arguing, stalling and pettiness Brexit was not a smooth exit as it should have been and the value of my property and investments go down, my lifestyle is adversely affected, we see months and years of financial hardship, they will not make up our losses.

BJ was going around 2 years ago saying the 37billion we don't give Europe can be spent on the NHS - unauthorised rubbish, the NHS is a dead duck and we should all be looking at private health insurance. BJ is dangerous and cannot be trusted.

When Brexit was an option we were not told all the implications of staying in or leaving, the main things it played upon was getting control back of our borders and reducing the numbers on illegal immigrants - the same people that Angela Merkle invited to traipse all across Europe - much to their regret now.

AND did you see the labour party political broadcast last night with a soft reassuring voice telling us about how they are going to look after us in the future? There was a brief clip of a car on a driveway - a petrol/diesel engine car with a 99 plate - WY99WBY, a VW I think. If that is a vision of the future under labour we are definitely screwed. All cars by then should be electric.

Over 400 pages in record time of arguments to and fro about Brexit and we are still not anywhere nearer anything positive. Unfortunately decent discussion on here has sometimes spilled over into arguments and the ignore button. That's a shame, we all are entitled to our own views without imposing it on others but there comes a time when we should sit back and think if we are becoming keyboard warriors.

OK that's me done, sun is out so going out with the dogs now and busy for the rest of the day so don't worry about agreeing or disagreeing with me - it really does not bother me. 

Have a nice day and remember, be nice to everyone and everyone will be nice to you.

LOL


----------



## JANICE199

Dave S said:


> I don't usually get involved in political arguments but I am getting so frustrated about our politicians and the way they are abusing the privilege of representing us - the people who elected them.
> 
> TM is not be the best person to lead the country, BJ certainly is not, the country under JC would be a step back into the 18th century.
> 
> If JC and the labour party will not talk to TM whilst there is a no deal option which could become a reality then what signal does that give. They are behaving like petulant children who sulk until they get their own way.
> 
> For God's sake I wish they would all grow up and have respect for us, for it us, the common people who will be hardest hit by a political stall. Either stay in or get out, just agree to do something positive and get on with it.
> 
> After all, they, the politicians, would not care if due to their constant arguing, stalling and pettiness Brexit was not a smooth exit as it should have been and the value of my property and investments go down, my lifestyle is adversely affected, we see months and years of financial hardship, they will not make up our losses.
> 
> BJ was going around 2 years ago saying the 37billion we don't give Europe can be spent on the NHS - unauthorised rubbish, the NHS is a dead duck and we should all be looking at private health insurance. BJ is dangerous and cannot be trusted.
> 
> When Brexit was an option we were not told all the implications of staying in or leaving, the main things it played upon was getting control back of our borders and reducing the numbers on illegal immigrants - the same people that Angela Merkle invited to traipse all across Europe - much to their regret now.
> 
> AND did you see the labour party political broadcast last night with a soft reassuring voice telling us about how they are going to look after us in the future? There was a brief clip of a car on a driveway - a petrol/diesel engine car with a 99 plate - WY99WBY, a VW I think. If that is a vision of the future under labour we are definitely screwed. All cars by then should be electric.
> 
> Over 400 pages in record time of arguments to and fro about Brexit and we are still not anywhere nearer anything positive. Unfortunately decent discussion on here has sometimes spilled over into arguments and the ignore button. That's a shame, we all are entitled to our own views without imposing it on others but there comes a time when we should sit back and think if we are becoming keyboard warriors.
> 
> OK that's me done, sun is out so going out with the dogs now and busy for the rest of the day so don't worry about agreeing or disagreeing with me - it really does not bother me.
> 
> Have a nice day and remember, be nice to everyone and everyone will be nice to you.
> 
> LOL


*I would rather take my chances with JC than this government. They have already ruined this country. People being made homeless, children and parents going hungry, and the list goes on. In all of my 69 years i have never felt more ashamed of those running this country. :Inpain*


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The biggest kick in the nuts our democracy has ever seen was a gerrymandered referendum, subverted by hostile entities & based on a tissue of lies.


Not really as a democracy is about serving the will of the people and putting votes out for the people to vote on. We got to make our vote, we exercised our rights to vote if we did.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Not really as a democracy is about serving the will of the people and putting votes out for the people to vote on. We got to make our vote, we exercised our rights to vote if we did.


Our democracy was subverted in a gerrymandered referendum. How can say its the 'will of the people'? Our democracy is in peril.

_Professor Patman explaining how Brexit referendum cheating has left British democracy diminished, yet PM refuses to act as she and her cabinet are the main beneficiaries of criminal acts that leave the UK looking like a banana republic._


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Our democracy was subverted in a gerrymandered referendum. How can say its the 'will of the people'? Our democracy is in peril.
> 
> _Professor Patman explaining how Brexit referendum cheating has left British democracy diminished, yet PM refuses to act as she and her cabinet are the main beneficiaries of criminal acts that leave the UK looking like a banana republic._


Its the will of the people because 52% voted yes. That may not be a huge majority but it is still a majority. In a rugby game if we win 30-28 we don't sort of win and share the points with the opposition, we win.


----------



## noushka05

Dave S said:


> AND did you see the labour party political broadcast last night with a soft reassuring voice telling us about how they are going to look after us in the future? There was a brief clip of a car on a driveway - a petrol/diesel engine car with a 99 plate - WY99WBY, a VW I think. If that is a vision of the future under labour we are definitely screwed. All cars by then should be electric.


The reason I find myself defending Corbyn all the time, is because labour is now much stronger on environmental issues & climate change. Corbyn has ditched the destructive ideology of neoliberalism. The broadcast was filming ordinary people - the VW has no relevance. Its their policies that matter.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Its the will of the people because 52% voted yes. That may not be a huge majority but it is still a majority. In a rugby game if we win 30-28 we don't sort of win and share the points with the opposition, we win.


Leave 'won' by cheating, lying & gerrymandering. You think thats democratic?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/eddie-marsan-corbyn-betraying-working-class-1-5846443


----------



## noushka05

Macron nailing Brexit >>>>

_"The first losers of [a no deal Brexit] are the British people"......"It's a referendum that was manipulated" by "fake news".......The British people "were lied to"....... "good luck to representatives of the country who want to implement something that doesn't exist."_


----------



## Elles

Inflation down, wages up, the pound strengthened, on paper its not looking that bad. Jeremy Corbyn made excuse after excuse to refuse a head to head and now refuses to meet up unless his demands are met. Sounds about right.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:

*Theresa May*: "Now is the time to put the national interest first"

*Corbyn*: "So take no deal off the table"

*Theresa May*: "How dare you insist I put the national interest first!"

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## noushka05

LOL

*David Allen Green*‏: T_he Prime Minister is "reaching out" to her opponents in the manner zombies, mummies and other types of the undead do as they stumble along in old horror films._


----------



## Jesthar

Here's the article by the negotiation expert I mentioned the other day regarding the problems with the Governments approach and how they could be addressed:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/...8Gl__paU38Q8J1KiFFivIAgJ8L8X5ZnUnFyuyAgwIgzrQ

Very interesting read 

@Arnie83 @Magyarmum


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> She doesn't have to. Her party found confidence in her and so did parliament. Corbyn on the other hand should step down.


_Only one month ago, 117 Tory MPs voted to remove Theresa May as leader of the Conservative Party.

If these MPs don't think she is fit to lead their party, they can't now say she is fit to lead the country and expect to maintain any credibility._


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Leave 'won' by cheating, lying & gerrymandering. You think thats democratic?


You seem to believe that there are examples of political battles being won fair and square.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> _Only one month ago, 117 Tory MPs voted to remove Theresa May as leader of the Conservative Party.
> 
> If these MPs don't think she is fit to lead their party, they can't now say she is fit to lead the country and expect to maintain any credibility._


Every Tory MP and the DUP backed the Government yesterday. You really think Tory rebels would vote their own party out of power? Of course they won't.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Here's the article by the negotiation expert I mentioned the other day regarding the problems with the Governments approach and how they could be addressed:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/...8Gl__paU38Q8J1KiFFivIAgJ8L8X5ZnUnFyuyAgwIgzrQ
> 
> Very interesting read
> 
> @Arnie83 @Magyarmum


Certainly interesting, and I'm sure Mr Malhotra is much better qualified to comment than me, but this bit ...

Mrs. May should do what she has resisted so far: announce her intention to hold a second Brexit referendum if she cannot get enough support for her deal.​
... is what a number of Tory 'rebels' (Grieve, Soubry et al) actually want, and if the opposition parties are of a like mind, it might would encourage them to vote against her deal even while the ERG types may be persuaded to vote for it. Of course, that's what I want too, but it strikes me as a risky strategy for May unless she has given up on getting her own deal through the Commons.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seem to believe that there are examples of political battles being won fair and square.


Ahh so you don't really care about democracy at all - its all about the 'winning' - and by any means.

When you professed concern about our 'struggling NHS', did you realise when you voted for brexit that leaving the EU would be 'potentially catastrophic' for our health service? You won't be able to pin the blame on migrants or refugees. It will be down to leave voters like you who still want to leave even now we know how devastating it will be.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Every Tory MP and the DUP backed the Government yesterday. You really think Tory rebels would vote their own party out of power? Of course they won't.


Of course they did 

The duplicitous tories will ALWAYS put the interests of their party before the nations.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seem to believe that there are examples of political battles being won fair and square.


I'm sure 'fair and square' would be a difficult bar to reach - these are politicians after all - but when people claim that the 2016 referendum was a shining example of democracy in action, given that it fell so very far short of being honest, is really taking the mickey.


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise.

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 1h1 hour ago
_So everything is not on the table. PM's offer of talks is a promise to listen, but only if we all agree with her. @theSNP won't be complicit in more time wasting. Rule out no deal, be prepared to extend Art 50 and agree to at least consider another referendum - then we'll talk._


----------



## Magyarmum

Deleted because the article I wanted to post comes up Article Not Found when I copy and past .....

sorry about that!


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 3m3 minutes ago
_
Just come out of Downing St after robust discussion with PM.

I urged her to take no deal off the table & stop blackmailing MPs.

I raised rights of 3 million & pressed hard on a #PeoplesVote

But sadly these talks are coming far too late & no sign PM is willing to compromise_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085848806636351493


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Ahh so you don't really care about democracy at all - its all about the 'winning' - and by any means.
> 
> When you professed concern about our 'struggling NHS', did you realise when you voted for brexit that leaving the EU would be 'potentially catastrophic' for our health service? You won't be able to pin the blame on migrants or refugees. It will be down to leave voters like you who still want to leave even now we know how devastating it will be.


Once again you are assuming the main reason for me wanting to leave the EU was because of immigration. Incorrect amigo. I don't blame the state the NHS is in on immigration either, it's hugely over complicated and over worked, with nothing centralised meaning costs are run up astronomically in each separate area. 
I wanted to leave the EU because we were constantly bailing other countries out (eg Greece) and that we have no real control over our own laws, trading deals etc.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure 'fair and square' would be a difficult bar to reach - these are politicians after all - but when people claim that the 2016 referendum was a shining example of democracy in action, given that it fell so very far short of being honest, is really taking the mickey.


Oh I'm not saying it was squeaky clean at all, but no vote is


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> Once again you are assuming the main reason for me wanting to leave the EU was because of immigration. Incorrect amigo. I don't blame the state the NHS is in on immigration either, it's hugely over complicated and over worked, with nothing centralised meaning costs are run up astronomically in each separate area.
> I wanted to leave the EU because we were constantly bailing other countries out (eg Greece) *and that we have no real control over our own laws,* trading deals etc.


The EU has done a lot of good with the law and it's stopped our government riding ram shod over us.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's a pity she did start cross party talks 2 years ago instead of been so one party minded and self centered, I'm sure if everyone had worked together, something would have been sorted out ages ago, instead of this last minute panic trying to save her botched up plan that no one wants. 

A cross party voted (that's us) for it, so now a cross party that's the MPs should try and help her sort her mess out and If they can't we should have another peoples vote.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> I don't blame the state the NHS is in on immigration either, *it's hugely over complicated and over worked*, with nothing centralised meaning costs are run up astronomically in each separate area.


And the main reason it over-complicated and overworked is Westminster. The NHS is perfectly viable when funded and administered properly. That it is not is down to political meddling - any budget areas have only started to crash into deficit in recent years after the latest rounds of interfering. The slashed training budget is the main reason why we now rely on people from overseas to keep staff levels viable.



AlexPed2393 said:


> I wanted to leave the EU because we were constantly bailing other countries out (eg Greece) and that we have no real control over our own laws, trading deals etc.


We had a veto, so we didn't have to implement laws we didn't want to.

Trade deals - well, that's going well, isn't it? And this is the easy deal with those who will benefit most from a decent trade arrangement with us. The really big boys, like the USA, China, the OPEC nations, India and Russia for starters, are highly unlikely to be anywhere near as reasonable - well, it doesn't really matter to them if a deal isn't signed, does it? They have plenty of existing deals with other markets, many of them much bigger than we will be. They have no reason to be generous, they can afford to wait as long as they need for us to run out of options.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Once again you are assuming the main reason for me wanting to leave the EU was because of immigration. Incorrect amigo. I don't blame the state the NHS is in on immigration either, it's hugely over complicated and over worked, with nothing centralised meaning costs are run up astronomically in each separate area.
> I wanted to leave the EU because we were constantly bailing other countries out (eg Greece) and that we have no real control over our own laws, trading deals etc.





AlexPed2393 said:


> We can help a select few but we are a densely populated island with a struggling health service and plenty of other things wrong that we need to sort out. Before we try and help everyone that knocks on our door in calais or elsewhere


Our NHS isn't struggling because we are a densely populated island, its in crisis because the tories are deliberately underfunding & privatising it. This is irrefutible. We could help many more people AND have a fully functioning health service - if we brexit we cannot. The near unanimous opinion of the medical community is that brexit is bad for NHS, supporting brexit NOW, means you accept the damage to our health service.

Your last sentence shows just how badly informed we were & how much misinformation was swallowed.

Here are the facts regarding bailouts - https://fullfact.org/europe/will-uk-pay-future-eurozone-bailouts/

_
We have no real control over our laws? _ What laws do we have no real control over Alex?

We have trade deals around the world, do you think we'll be better off on trading on WTO rules?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> And the main reason it over-complicated and overworked is Westminster. The NHS is perfectly viable when funded and administered properly. That it is not is down to political meddling - any budget areas have only started to crash into deficit in recent years after the latest rounds of interfering. The slashed training budget is the main reason why we now rely on people from overseas to keep staff levels viable.


Totally agree with you



Jesthar said:


> Trade deals - well, that's going well, isn't it? And this is the easy deal with those who will benefit most from a decent trade arrangement with us. The really big boys, like the USA, China, the OPEC nations, India and Russia for starters, are highly unlikely to be anywhere near as reasonable - well, it doesn't really matter to them if a deal isn't signed, does it? They have plenty of existing deals with other markets, many of them much bigger than we will be. They have no reason to be generous, they can afford to wait as long as they need for us to run out of options.


This 'easy deal' has a vested interest (a huge one) in it staying as is just to make their lives easier. With a better negotiator than TM I believe we could have gotten a much better agreement on the table, bendy bananas and all.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> The EU has done a lot of good with the law and it's stopped our government riding ram shod over us.


Some people will only realise this when its too late.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Our NHS isn't struggling because we are a densely populated island, its in crisis because the tories are deliberately underfunding & privatising it. This is irrefutible. We could help many more people AND have a fully functioning health service - if we brexit we cannot. The near unanimous opinion of the medical community is that brexit is bad for NHS, supporting brexit NOW, means you accept the damage to our health service.
> 
> Your last sentence shows just how badly informed we were & how much misinformation was swallowed.
> 
> Here are the facts regarding bailouts - https://fullfact.org/europe/will-uk-pay-future-eurozone-bailouts/
> 
> _
> We have no real control over our laws? _ What laws do we have no real control over Alex?
> 
> We have trade deals around the world, do you think we'll be better off on trading on WTO rules?


You pulled my quote out of context, we are over populated and we do have a struggling health service, not because of immigration but because of what I have mentioned above and what I agreed with @Jesthar on.

Thanks for the link on the Greece payout, over what period of time is that loan being paid back, as I don't see it being short term.

I know its from the metro but here's a link regarding laws and regulations from the EU, some good, some a bit weird

https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/29/10-eu-laws-that-could-get-scrapped-after-brexit-6541477/


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> It's a pity she did start cross party talks 2 years ago instead of been so one party minded and self centered, I'm sure if everyone had worked together, something would have been sorted out ages ago, instead of this last minute panic trying to save her botched up plan that no one wants.
> 
> A cross party voted (that's us) for it, so now a cross party that's the MPs should try and help her sort her mess out and If they can't we should have another peoples vote.


May doesn't deserve anyone's help, she's brought this on herself through her obsession with immigration targets. Corbyn and Sturgeon are right not to fall for her web of lies.

Having said that Corbyn scored an own goal yesterday over the confidence vote. He must've known he would lose it. He put his own viewpoint over that of the party. He should've called a PV but he won't do that despite being agreed at the conference.

May is hardly going to back the Corbyn Brexit plan. Workers rights goes against everything the Tories represent.

It's time for him to go and let someone like David Lammy take over.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> This 'easy deal' has a vested interest (a huge one) in it staying as is just to make their lives easier.


Well yes, the EU would definitely prefer it if trade with us didn't become a logistical nightmare  That said, if it boils down to making unreasonable concessions or watching us choose to drive off the no-deal cliff, I have no doubt they'll get the popcorn out and watch us try and lay down the law to the big boys with even less success  OK, reduced trade with us wouldn't be great for them, but they have plenty of other countries to freely trade with so it won't cause too much of a problem in the long run.



AlexPed2393 said:


> With a better negotiator than TM I believe we could have gotten a much better agreement on the table, bendy bananas and all.


Well, yes. But then again, the morning contents of my litter trays could probably have got a better agreement, given that they at least understand the fundamental natrual order of things (you have to put something in to get something out, and the higher the quality of what goes in, the less 'rubbish' you get out the other end  )...


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 388692


Too late again

Noushka05 has already informed us of the fact several posts back on this thread!


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You pulled my quote out of context, we are over populated and we do have a struggling health service, not because of immigration but because of what I have mentioned above and what I agreed with @Jesthar on.
> 
> Thanks for the link on the Greece payout, over what period of time is that loan being paid back, as I don't see it being short term.
> 
> I know its from the metro but here's a link regarding laws and regulations from the EU, some good, some a bit weird
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/29/10-eu-laws-that-could-get-scrapped-after-brexit-6541477/


The point I was trying to make is that you appeared to be using our 'struggling NHS' as an excuse not to help some of the most desperate people on the planet, when helping them would have no baring whatsoever on the state of our health service as the crisis is due to government policies.

And if you really care about our NHS why do you still support brexit Alex, knowing it will potentially catastrophic?

You said we were constantly bailing out countries. We aren't, its another fallacy sold by the leave campaign. The UK got an exemption from any bailout money.

I don't have time to read the link as I'm on my way out, I'll check it out when I get back.


----------



## noushka05

My mistake. I had lol


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> If May had an ounce of decency after yesterday she would have resigned.


 i thought she might resign . But it would have caused more delays that we can ill afford. I think they will try to get an extension . 
The other countries that invest here must be really fed up with us . No one can make plans.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The point I was trying to make is that you appeared to be using our 'struggling NHS' as an excuse not to help some of the most desperate people on the planet, when helping them would have no baring whatsoever on the state of our health service as the crisis is due to government policies


I answered this in my previous post.



noushka05 said:


> And if you really care about our NHS why do you still support brexit Alex, knowing it will potentially catastrophic?
> 
> You said we were constantly bailing out countries. We aren't, its another fallacy sold by the leave campaign. The UK got an exemption from any bailout money.


I care about the NHS and I want to leave the EU. The world is not going to collapse if/when we leave the EU and neither will the NHS. Everything is potentially catastrophic to the NHS in its current state and it needs a total re haul.

We are still paying to bail out these countries and getting the money back in loan payments over long periods of time which yes we aren't paying in that sense but it is taking a huge chunk out of that yearly budget.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> i thought she might resign . But it would have caused more delays that we can ill afford. I think they will try to get an extension .
> The other countries that invest here must be really fed up with us . No one can make plans.


She's made a real mess of it, we have become a joke.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Certainly interesting, and I'm sure Mr Malhotra is much better qualified to comment than me, but this bit ...
> 
> Mrs. May should do what she has resisted so far: announce her intention to hold a second Brexit referendum if she cannot get enough support for her deal.​
> ... is what a number of Tory 'rebels' (Grieve, Soubry et al) actually want, and if the opposition parties are of a like mind, it might would encourage them to vote against her deal even while the ERG types may be persuaded to vote for it. Of course, that's what I want too, but it strikes me as a risky strategy for May unless she has given up on getting her own deal through the Commons.


Given the utter thumping it took in the vote the other day, followed by the extremely narrow no confidence vote, I'm not convinced there's much scope for pushing that particular donkey over the parliamentary backing finish line...


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Our NHS isn't struggling because we are a densely populated island, its in crisis because the tories are deliberately underfunding & privatising it. This is irrefutible. We could help many more people AND have a fully functioning health service - if we brexit we cannot. The near unanimous opinion of the medical community is that brexit is bad for NHS, supporting brexit NOW, means you accept the damage to our health service.


I still maintain (you called it whataboutery last time ) that the NHS is up the creek partly because of the way the huge amounts of money that are poured into it are spent.

38% of NHS bodies getting a qualified audit is not a good thing, and shows huge amounts of waste in the system.

It isn't ALL about 1 thing.

https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/new...utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Strong and stable government to continue*
16th January 2019









*THE UK has once again thanked the DUP for ensuring Britain has a strong and stable government. *

The plucky Northern Ireland minnows threw their weight behind the prime minister, allowing Britain continue to benefit from Theresa May's steady hand.

Norman Steele, from Bolton, said: "Thank God. Where would we be without them? It's hard to remember a time when we'd barely heard of them. But here they are, tireless servants of democracy.

"Without their intervention our political system would be in chaos, all certainties gone, broken beyond repair. But instead we have strength, stability, hope and above all Theresa May."

He added: "A billion quid? Worth every penny."


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Given the utter thumping it took in the vote the other day, followed by the extremely narrow no confidence vote, I'm not convinced there's much scope for pushing that particular donkey over the parliamentary backing finish line...


No, I think you're right. It makes me wonder what her Plan B will be when she announces it on Monday. Though I think the first Plan B will be to have another go with Plan A and a vote on 29th just to see if the added pressure of a No Deal blackmail bears fruit. She seems to be willing to risk a lot of damage to the country in an effort to get her way.


----------



## rona

I'm hoping for a phoenix rising from ashes.
Some sensible moderate politician seizing the opportunity, creating another party and stealing all the moderates from across all parties


----------



## rona

rona said:


> I'm hoping for a phoenix rising from ashes.
> Some sensible moderate politician seizing the opportunity, creating another party and stealing all the moderates from across all parties


Farage maybe :Jawdrop :Joyful :Joyful :Singing


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Farage maybe :Jawdrop :Joyful :Joyful :Singing


Hah, that really WOULD be the end of the UKs political credibility - well, what's left of it! :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> i thought she might resign


And if she were to resign, she would be accused of ''doing a runner'', which you will recall Cameron was accused of when he went in 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> And if she were to resign, she would be accused of ''doing a runner'', which you will recall Cameron was accused of when he went in 2016.


It could well happen if she quietly implements her plan in time for Brexit before Parliament have a chance to react. Would be a good time to run away rather than face the music.

Then, I think she would enjoy the resultant anger, knowing she couldn't be ousted until at least December.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The DUP and Brexitiers in the Conservative party seem very happy with Plan B which May revealed to MP's at Downing Street today. She has been told that she will be able to comforatably command all the 315 Tory MP's and 10 DUP next week which is all she needs to get Plan B through. Meanwhile Corbyn is trying to get No Deal taken off the table (more delay tactics from Corbyn) with an amendment to Plan B but this won't happen.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I'm hoping for a phoenix rising from ashes.
> Some sensible moderate politician seizing the opportunity, creating another party and stealing all the moderates from across all parties


Starting with a Gang of Four, perhaps ... ?


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> No, I think you're right. It makes me wonder what her Plan B will be when she announces it on Monday. Though I think the first Plan B will be to have another go with Plan A and a vote on 29th just to see if the added pressure of a No Deal blackmail bears fruit. She seems to be willing to risk a lot of damage to the country in an effort to get her way.


You may be right. She has proven astonishingly intractable when it comes to anything other than her own viewpoint, nor does she seem to have the strength of character a person requires to admit mistakes or change their standpoint when it proves necessary.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Starting with a Gang of Four, perhaps ... ?


We had such hope. What went wrong?


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> We had such hope. What went wrong?


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39216693

*Former SDP Gang of Four on Jeremy Corbyn's Labour*

Gosh .... The thing I remember most about the Gang of Four was Shirley Williams' gravelly voice and the way her hair looked as if it had never been combed!


----------



## AlexPed2393

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...all-full-transcript-conversation-11-business/

Sorry if some of you aren't Telegraph subscribers but this is good reading


----------



## AlexPed2393

I'm sorry.

he Telegraph has obtained a leaked audio recording of a briefing that Philip Hammond gave 330 business leaders during a conference call in the aftermath of Theresa May's historic Brexit defeat on Tuesday.

Log-in or subscribe to read the full transcript, including Mr Hammond's account of how Article 50 could be extended and no deal could be taken "off the table":

*Philip Hammond, Chancellor of the Exchequer*
I won't conceal the fact that the scale of the defeat this evening was a disappointment but not entirely a surprise.

I think the important thing is that the Prime Minister has responded to the vote this evening with a clear strategy to move to reach out to opinion across the House of Commons and to commit the Government to listening to the views of others in an attempt to establish what is needed to build a consensus in Parliament that allows us to deliver a negotiated deal.

We have made clear this evening that we will facilitate a confidence vote in the Government. Jeremy Corbyn has duly tabled a vote of no confidence which will be taken tomorrow. We are confident we will win the no-confidence vote. We need to do that in order to establish the Government's credentials as it were to take this forward.









Chancellor Phillip Hammond CREDIT: DAVID ROSE
Once the no-confidence vote has been completed the Prime Minister will call senior MPs from across the House and indeed other party leaders and talk to them about their aspirations for a realistic way forward.

We are short of time and we have to be clear that pursuing what we call unicorns - ideas that would involve fundamental renegotiation of the deal we have done with the EU - is not going to work.

The withdrawal agreement will need to remain in place but there is flexibility to look at the terms of the political declaration on the future relationship.

The Government has already indicated that it is willing to accept amendments tabled by Labour members on workers' rights and environmental protections.

The Government is absolutely clear that a negotiated deal is the right way forward to deliver Brexit, honour the referendum result and avoid the very significant political damage and disruption to trust in the political system that would be done if we did not honour the referendum decision.

But to do so in a way that protects our economy, protects jobs and allows us to continue a very close partnership in both security and trade with our European neighbours.

I am going to try to preempt two obvious questions.

Could we extend the Article 50 deadline to give us more time?

The simple answer is that the EU would not consider the request for the extension of the Article 50 deadline unless or until we have a clear plan to go forward.

The sequence has to be first to reach out to opinion across the Commons to establish the terms on which we can build a majority for a way forward in the Commons.

If necessary go back to the EU to agree changes that are necessary to deliver that consensus. And at that time, if more time is going to be required, to negotiate that with the EU.

The second question is whether we can somehow take the option of no deal off the table.

Everyone on the call will be aware that a bill has been tabled today and amendments will be tabled on Monday by backbenchers from across the House which would have the effect of removing the threat of no deal.

I can simply as a parliamentarian say it is clear to me there is a large majority in the Commons that is opposed to no deal in any circumstances.









Stephen Barclay CREDIT: BLOOMBERG
*Stephen Barclay, Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union*
I very much agree with the analysis that Philip has set out. In terms of the confidence vote both the DUP and ERG have said that they will be supporting the Government in that confidence vote.

There will be a very active programme now of reaching out to parliamentarians and EU leaders in the coming days.

What we saw tonight is what Parliament is against.

But that was very much a coalition of people that do not agree. One of the issues we will need to test in coming days is what Parliamentarians are for as opposed to what they oppose.

In terms of no deal, clearly there is a lot of uncertainty at present. Whatever deal is agreed by Parliament will still need to have a withdrawal agreement and a backstop and will also need to be ratified.

That is why Cabinet took the decision in terms of the no deal preparations that as a responsible Government we need to prepare, even though that is not where anyone wants to be.

We are working in coming days to get a clearer sense from leaders across the House, and also in terms of how that will inform the next phase and what reassurance we could give to Parliament in terms of how we would work with them as we flesh out the political declaration.









Greg Clark CREDIT: ANNA GORDON
*Greg Clark, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy*
Perhaps I can start by saying to everyone on the line thank you for all the evidence and work you have done, especially contacting local MPs over the last few weeks as to what the reality you face is.

I am sure it is frustrating that not everyone has changed their minds accordingly, but I don't think that is wasted. I think in the days ahead your needs and the way you have communicated them will continue to be influential.

The second thing is that all of us completely understand the seriousness and urgency of the situations that you face.

The 29th March is a few weeks away. I know by talking to many of you who have already had to make decisions at the expense of more productive uses of the funds you have.

Our purpose in the next few days is essentially to reflect all the things you have told us. First that we can't have no deal, for all the reasons you set out completely consistently.

Secondly we need to achieve a deal that allows us at least as close a trading relationship with the rest of the EU as in the agreement that has been negotiated. That is vital.

The third is that we need to come to a conclusion quickly. This can't go on much longer. As Philip said it is evident that whatever the numbers tonight that was the first vote.

A lot of people had made prior commitments. But there is a very clear majority in the house not to have no deal, to have a relationship with the EU that will allow you to trade and prosper in future, and to bring this to a conclusion quickly.

The exercise and the commitment the Prime Minister made is to establish that, go beyond the Government and the Conservative Party and to put that group together and come back with a deal does work.

*Jurgen Maier, chief executive of Siemens UK*
Thank you very much for taking the time to give us this briefing. It is really, really important because I'm sure I'll be speaking for quite a few of us our international boards are expecting an update from us this evening who are obviously watching these events closer than they have ever been.

We obviously share your disappointment in the scale of the defeat this evening.

As you know we at Siemens are very much behind the withdrawal agreement, [and] can't for the life of us understand why [this] got such a heavy defeat. But we are where we are.

The two questions I have to try and give some confidence to my board is Philip, you said that bills have gone in today that in effect will start to make it impossible or certainly block the changes for a no deal.

How strong a confidence can I really give that we aren't going to go by default into a no deal.

My second question is can you say anything else about what you believe can be negotiated that would be substantially different and would allow cross-party consensus?

*Hammond*
Jurgen, on the first part of the question what has been tabled today is a backbench proposal backed from across the House.

We know it has been put together with active engagement from the clerks of the House.

It is properly drafted.

What it proposes to do is to create a parliamentary power to withdraw the Article 50 notice and to lay that on the table as a sort of ultimate backstop if the work the Government is doing in seeking to find a way forward fails to deliver.

My understanding is that amendments will be tabled to the Government motion will be tabled on Monday.

Those amendments will be voted on in the course of next week. If that initiative by backbenchers is successful that would be clear to you within the space of the next two weeks certainly.

As to the question what changes might be required to build a consensus in Parliament and what can be negotiated, very clearly removing the Irish backstop arrangements cannot be negotiated.

There is no point in wasting a lot of time on that theme. But we have to approach this discussion with senior parliamentarians in other parties with an open mind.

It is for them to bring their ideas to us. Many of them, even within individual parties, will have significantly different ideas.

There is going to be a shake out process over the next couple of days when they try to work out among themselves how they can come together around credible proposals to put to the Government.

But it is very important we are in listening mode and open to receive ideas that will deliver a good negotiated and negotiable Brexit.

*Doug Gurr, head of Amazon UK*
You said Chancellor that you thought there was a clear majority against no deal. We have already incurred quite significant costs. Is there anything you can do that would enable us to give any comfort to our global board that no deal can be ruled out.

*Hammond*
I can only emphasise what I have already said. This is a backbench initiative but it's backed by some very senior parliamentarians. It will as I understand it run its parliamentary course over the next 10 days or so. By the end of next week we will have a clearer view.

*Barclay*
The best mitigation to the no deal risk remains the current deal. As Philip set out a number of colleagues opined on the agreement extremely quickly. Literally within minutes we had colleagues in Parliament giving their view on the 585 minutes.

To some extent people had committed very early on to a position in terms of the vote tonight. One of the issues will be to understand with those colleagues what further reassurance they are looking for, and to do so within the framework that is set by both our manifesto and also the Labour manifesto.

Both manifestos made commitments in this area. That is pertinent to issues such as the debate on customs union and international trade. The manifesto will be a framework but clearly we need to listen to colleagues.

The concern is given the level of uncertainty it is right we retain our level of preparation on no deal, but clearly getting a deal is the way to mitigate that risk.

*Keith Anderson, chief executive of ScottishPower*
Thanks again for taking questions.

My understanding is that in order to allow us to extend or ask for an extension of article 50 we would need to put legislation to Parliament.

I am wondering when the process is going to start to put that legislation through that would allow the UK Government to ask for an extension to Article 50 just in case we need it. Again that's the kind of thing that would give businesses an awful lot of comfort, if the Government is seen to be taking an action to try and prevent no deal.

*Barclay*
Within the House where there is a consensus people can move quickly. But one of the issues with no deal is that taking that off the table does weaken the negotiation hand from the UK perspective.

There is a balance to be struck. I am very conscious of the concerns that people on the call will have in terms of that. It is about preparing for that until we have a deal that allows us to take no deal off the table.

*John Allan, chairman of Tesco and President of the CBI*
The message from the Chancellor was that there would be a backbench amendment. Can we have an undertaking that the Government would do nothing to frustrate the progress of that if that is what the majority of the Commons wants.

Then I heard the Brexit Secretary saying that we have to keep the threat of no deal saying that actually we have to keep the threat of no deal because it's important to our negotiating position. I struggle to see how those two things can be reconciled. Perhaps someone on the call could reconcile them for me.

*Hammond*
Let me have a go. There is going to be a vote in the House of Commons. I am afraid what the Government thinks is not going to be the determining factor in the outcome of that vote.

My judgement is that there is a significant majority in the House of Commons against no deal. What this group of backbenchers has been doing is seeking to find a mechanism by which the House of Commons can express that view in a way which is binding and effective.

*John Allan*
Will the Government do nothing to frustrate the progress of that if that's what the majority want.

How do you reconcile that with wanting to keep no deal as a negotiating weapon at the same time? I just think there's an inconsistency between those two positions.

*Hammond*
Steve has pointed out what is an undeniable fact in negotiation. If you remove an option from the table that has consequences.

But in a sense that is not a decision for us to take. Backbenchers have tabled a draft bill and are taking this forward.

It will be the parliamentary arithmetic that determines what happens, not a decision by the Government.

The Government hasn't yet looked at this in detail and decided on a formal position.

The point here is not dependent on the Government's acquiescence in any way. This will be something that the House of Commons determines

*Peter Mather, head of BP in the UK*
We have talked about some of the options. It doesn't sound like the confidence vote will go the Labour Party's way.

We have talked about reducing the possibility of no deal. We have also talked about the possibility of achieving a breakthrough in the deal.

I just wonder whether all of this added together has in any way increased the sympathy or the lack of antipathy towards the idea of a second referendum.

*Barclay*
I think the issue with a second referendum is it's presented as a way of ending the uncertainty.

But the risk with it is that it will actually prolong the uncertainty.

If you look at the first referendum the process took 13 months from start to finish.

It is difficult in the current climate to think that the House will view the legislation for a second referendum with goodwill and expedite it.

There will obviously [be] material questions in terms of what the actual question in the referendum would be.

Would it be two questions or three? What the spending limits would be, particularly following some of the litigation and revelations following the last referendum.

There would also be a practical issue in terms of the interaction with the European Parliament elections, which are at the end of May.

As Philip touched on earlier the issue in terms of extension isn't a unilateral decision for the UK.

That requires the consent of the other 27 member states. Revocation as the European courts made clear requires the cancelling. It must be unconditoinal.

It is often mooted that a second referendum is a way of ending the uncertainty. It would actually lead to a significant period of further uncertainty.

Of course one cannot guarnatee the result of that referendum either. One could have a prolonged period of uncertainty followed by a result not dissimilar to the first result.

For those reasons that is not the way forward. The key issue in the coming days will be to look where the consensus can be.

What we have seen up to this vote is a myriad of plans - Norway, Canada, various plans with a plus affixed - people thinking that WTO is a land of milk and honey and a perfectly benign landing position.

The vote crystallises the conversations that need to take place across the House.

*Leo Quinn, chief executive of Balfour Beatty*
Will we anticipate getting back to a normal, functioning Government? What we are seeing from industry is decisions are being delayed, we are seeing strategies not being confirmed.

Within the construction industry for example the future of HS2 is unclear, Heathrow confirmation that expansion plans will move forward - none of these are under our control.

And I know you will have heard this before, but the enemy of business is delay and procrastination.

The challenge I see facing construction across the UK over the next 12 months is that as decisions don't get made and projects get pushed out, the industry is going to face what I would regard as a large scale restructuring whereby the industry cannot carry the capability and resources that are going to be so desperately needed.

Despite Brexit we need to make some decisions to keep things moving forward. It is vitally important we get back to some form of normal Government.

*Clark*
Leo everyone here is absolutely conscious of the need to bring this to a resolution.

I know from talking to those involved in this call just how much of a blight the uncertainty is for investment decisions. What you are now going to see over the next few days is a rapid acceleration.

Some of the resolutions of the House of Commons passed required a response from the Government within three days rather than three weeks. You go straight from today's defeat to a confidence vote tomorrow. It is all now going to move at a much more rapid pace.

To be frank with you it is a matter of great regret to me that we are in January in this situation rather than having resolved it long before.

I know this has caused real difficulties and imposed costs to you. All I can say is that from my part and my colleagues we will do everything we can to bring this to a resolution.

Within the next few days and weeks Parliament needs to do that so we can move on and you can get on with not having to think about these decisions.

*Leo Quinn*
The biggest strategic issue is that it's very difficult if not impossible to take a capability holiday.

Once resources have been lost from the industry or people retire from it it's very difficult to persuade them to come back. We are at a very critical point.

*Hammond*
The key issue here is resource in Government. The Government has decided rightly that our number one operational proirity at the moment has to be preparing for the contingency of a no deal Brexit, something which all of us are seeking to avoid.

We can't afford to be flat-footed in preparing for that contingency.

As soon as we know that we are not going there, and we can stop doing that preparation, those resources can be released back to their business as usual functions. That will allow the resumption of normal service that you are seeking.

But it has to be right that while there is any risk of a no deal outcome on the 29th March the Government should be taking all the necessary steps to put contingency plans in place.

*Richard Pennycook, chairman of the British Retail Consortium*
It goes without saying that as you go into these conversations in Parliament with various groups over the next week or two if any of us collectively or individually can help in terms of the perspective of business you've only got to ask us.

Two questions. The first one, back to no deal. I'm sorry we can't get away from it but as others have said we are guiding stock-markets and boards on decisions around our contingency planning.

What I think I heard is whilst we should place some reassurance on the backbench motion which is coming forward, that is tempered by the fact that were we to withdraw Article 50 we can't do it with our fingers tied behind our backs in order to buy time.

I just wonder how concerned are you that the press will therefore immediately leap to that being a no exit scenario, and therefore a difficult one for us to rely on as a business in our no deal planning.

Second in relation to the clock ticking, for most of us in business whilst of course while we are very sympathetic to the Irish border question for us no deal is actually not having an end state deal at the end of 2020. So many long term decisions are on hold until we have got that clarity.

Presumably there is no dialogue that can take place with the EU until such time as the withdrawal agreement has been signed, even if that takes another few weeks or months.

*Hammond*
Again I have to repeat this is a backbench initiative. The Government is not in control of this. I am only telling you what information I have been able to glean.

My understanding is that because the bill being brought forward will simply and solely rescind the Article 50 notice, the legal opinion that they have is that that will meet the test that the European Court of Justice has laid down for unilateral recision of an article 50 notice.

It is not within their power to mandate any future course of action, that would be for a Government to do. Their process simply and their bill simply withdraws the Article 50 notice.

*Barclay*
On the second point of the timing to end 2020 you will have seen in the language of the December Council and also in the recent exchange of letters from President Tusk and Juncker a number of commitments particularly around starting the next phase of discussion as soon as Parliament has agreed a meaningful vote and in terms of expediting the ratification process, both at the start and end of the timeline there is scope to speed things up.

There is a clear commitment in terms of injecting pace into those negotiations.

The political declaration itself provides a framework.

What we get against that, and for example in the letter from Richard Dearlove and Lord Guthrie, was on the one hand people saying the political declaration has no legal force.

You get other people saying that the political declaration has such legal force that it is going to compromise national security.

In the media there is often a dialogue saying that the political declaration to some critics isn't worth the paper it's on. Those same critics say it will restrict what the UK can do to a severe degree.

What's clear from the EU side is the backstop is uncomfortable for the EU themselves.

It is uncomfortable in terms of breaking the four freedoms, in terms of the fact access to fishing waters is stopped on day one.

There is a commitment to inject some pace. We stand ready to do that. Then of course there is the option to extend the implementation period by one or two years should we wish.

*Paula Vennells, chief executive Post Office and non-exec director at Morrisons*
I was wanting to turn to other stakeholders - colleagues, employees, customers.

I picked up two messages. One was that the Government is listening hard.

The other was that because of the clear opposition to a second referendum it is very keen to respect democracy.

Are there any other particular messages for colleagues, employees, customers? What will play out in the media will not be the balance of what we have heard tonight, that is for sure.

*Clark*
Obviously in terms of your colleagues some of them will be people who come from other European countries.

It is of particular importance to provide a reassurance there. Deal or no deal commitments have been given that they are needed, they are welcome, there is no reason why they should be concerned by their position.

The second [thing] is that although the numbers look like we are a long way from achieving a deal to a certain extent they are misleading.

They might suggest there is not an appetite for a deal. The truth is that quite a lot of those who voted against the deal did so because they have taken an initial view and we now are intending to be more pragmatic.

The other thing to say is that quite a lot of the people that voted against it didn't want to see no deal, didn't want to take away any of the aspects of the agreement that have been reached, they want it to go further.

It might be tempting to think this shows the Commons doesn't want to do a deal. Actually in my view it shows the opposite. For quite a large number of people they want it to go further.

That I completely understand is something that is hard to translate and persuade people of. But it is the reality.

This reaching out is being able to understand what further additions, concessions - we talked about reassurances about workers' rights, about environmental standards- these are people that had concerns that the deal wasn't rigorous enough.

I do think there is not only a deal to be done there but that... at least it allows us to have the close relationship that has been proposed.

I think it's pretty obvious that there is a big majority to avoid no deal.

They need to come together and crystallise into an agreement but the right ingredients are there.

You have played a really important role in shaping the deal that has been proposed.

Don't be disheartened in thinking your advice has been rebuffed. Some members of parliament want to go even further in terms of a closer relationship. Our job is to crystalise that and make that happen.

*Barclay*
There is absolutely no desire from a Government point of view to run down the clock. Quite the opposite.

We recognise the importance of time from a business point of view. But there is also a legislative pressure in terms of parliament and impact of time.

We are very conscious that the sooner we can get to a consensus the better.

I am very conscious that a lot of you have already been speaking to members of parliament.

One of the challenges we have had is that there has been a narrative of dismissing some of the practical issues around Project Fear rather than the real term consequences that people on the call will be very aware of.

We need to continue with those practical examples of the impact on your businesses to members of parliament. Emphasising that message to them is extremely helpful.

*Carolyn Fairbairn, director-general of the CBI*
I will just reinforce the message that is coming from businesses across the country about taking that [no deal] off the table. Just to reiterate how very important that will be.

I want to turn quickly to the consensus-building process, it's very welcome. Two questions. How broadly across Parliament will you be reaching? Will that be all opposition partiues, all leaders of the parties. Secondly how much flexibility can the Government show on this. Particularly some of the areas which have been very challenging like the customs union issue.

How much flexibility do you anticipate the Government will be able to show around the red lines you have.

*Hammond*
You have to let the PM do this in her way. Over the next couple of days it will become clear. It will be a comprehensive reaching out across Parliament to hear views and build that consensus across Parliament. It won't take very long.

Secondly on the question of red lines we go into this discussion with Parliamentarians having just suffered a very large defeat for the deal we have put forward. There are many tactical reasons for that defeat. There are a lot of people who in the course of the debate have made clear they want to see a negotiated deal, just not the terms of this deal.

We now have to bring those people to a realistic understanding of what can be done, and what cannot be done. It wouldn't be helpful to go into this discussion waving flags with red lines on them. The appropriate way to go in would be without commitment but open-minded and listening to what people have proposed to see where the weight of opinion in Parliament lies.

So far the process has delivered us some very clear understandings of what Parliament is against, but no clear understanding of what Parliament is for.

*Barclay*
The Prime Minister made clear in her response to the vote that reaching our will be with senior parliamentarians across the house. The essence of that will be how one builds the trust. There is a log in the withdrawal agreement with which they agree - protection of citizens rights, the respecting of legal obligations, the avoiding of a hard border through the backstop are all issues that many on the opposition benches agree with.

But the issue of trust tends to crystallise around things such as 'well we hear the Government when it says it doesn't want a regulatory race to the bottom, but how do we have confidence aroud that in terms of some of the assurances on employment rights and environmental standards'

*Vivienne Hunt, managing partner at McKinsey & Company*
My question relates to the clarity of messages, and to what extent we can get some of these messages clear from the Prime Minister in a more of a balanced way. That would be very reassuring.

*Barclay*
In terms of the timeframe what was set out is that we have got the confidence vote tomorrow, the Prime Minister has made a commitment to come back to the House on Monday. There will be discussions over the weekend as part of the engagement we have touched on. The next milestone in the process will be on Monday.

*Simon Blagden, Fujitsu*
We all have a lot of stakeholders and will all be very happy to support the Government in reaching out to those. This has been very very helpful.


----------



## Elles

Probably not a good idea to copy/paste copyrighted material that’s behind a paywall.


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## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Probably not a good idea to copy/paste copyrighted material that's behind a paywall.


I know but if the government 'leaks' information to a national newspaper, then I can 'leak' it here


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## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...all-full-transcript-conversation-11-business/
> 
> Sorry if some of you aren't Telegraph subscribers but this is good reading


Interesting. Hammond, Barclay and Clark all seem very reassuring on the subject of No Deal being avoided. More so than May.


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## kimthecat

Ive pinched this from Bordies thread about ticks .


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## Snoringbear

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-blamed-as-philips-close-suffolk-factory/17/01/


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## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-blamed-as-philips-close-suffolk-factory/17/01/


They've slanted the article to make it look as though Brexit is totally to blame, It's not what The Guardian says or BBC News.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-close-uk-plant-jobs-brexit-glemsford-suffolk

*A spokesperson for the company said the closure of the factory would have happened regardless of Brexit, but acknowledged that the current political situation in the UK would have been a factor in executives' thinking.*

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46907026

*However, Philips said while Brexit was one of the geopolitical factors that was affecting business conditions for the firm in Europe, it was "one point of many" and was not the driver for the closure of the site.*

This is the Media Bias/ Fact Check for The London Economic which says it all!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-london-economic/


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## Snoringbear

Brexit is all a factor in all the articles bar the last.


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## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> She's made a real mess of it, we have become a joke.


We haven't, they have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> We haven't, they have.


Is there anything that we didn't predict before referendum if Leave wins?
It was obvious as the was no more information about Brexit than Brexit is Brexit- people who wanted it were having own and diverse ideas what it would be.

There were slogans and promises but no plan to vote for.
Good to get more votes, but totally dishonest.

All assurances " It will be easy, they need us more, we will have more money for NHS and more jobs without EU immigration, immigration will go down" were lies...

You would move out of your house without knowing where are you going?

Or quit your job without any offer just hoping something better will turn up?
Especially when you were doing pretty well...

EU had faults, but became a scapegoat for all bad decisions.

Too many Islamic hate preachers?

Not enough houses, schools, money for NHS, wages too low?
Blame the EU and immigration from there.

Because thanks to Tory Gov and Brexit there will be more and better paid jobs? 
More police, schools, hospitals, government housing?

ERG will make sure that you common people are so happy with your freedom from EU and ECJ...

Unicorns and rainbows ....


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> We haven't, they have.


Really?

Let's sum things up here. Cameron (a remainer) gave the referendum on the EU and left. Remainer May took over trying to deliver her version of Brexit which would have kept the UK bound to the EU. So yes remainers are at fault. Brexitiers haven't had a chance to do anything as we have a remainer PM creating the mess that the UK is currently in and no Brexitiers and leave voters did not vote for this they voted to leave and May is not delivering on this as she is a remain supporter.

End of summary.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Really?
> 
> Let's sum things up here. Cameron (a remainer) gave the referendum on the EU and left. Remainer May took over trying to deliver her version of Brexit which would have kept the UK bound to the EU. So yes remainers are at fault. Brexitiers haven't had a chance to do anything as we have a remainer PM creating the mess that the UK is currently in and no Brexitiers and leave voters did not vote for this they voted to leave and May is not delivering on this as she is a remain supporter.
> 
> End of summary.


You forgot the part where all the leading Brexiteers ran away even faster when they won...


----------



## Elles

They didn’t did they, they put their names forward to become PM, but eventually TM won.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> We haven't, they have.


And how do you work that one out????


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> You forgot the part where all the leading Brexiteers ran away even faster when they won...


Brexitiers tried to oust remainer May so one of them could become PM and have their chance to deliver Brexit but failed. The PM is still a remainer and the Brexitiers still haven't had a chance. The mess over Brexit has been created by a remainer PM not a Brexitier.


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> Brexit is all a factor in all the articles bar the last.


The sentence doesn't make sense perhaps you should rewrite it in better English?


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexitiers tried to oust remainer May so one of them could become PM and have their chance to deliver Brexit but failed. The PM is still a remainer and the Brexitiers still haven't had a chance. The mess over Brexit has been created by a remainer PM not a Brexitier.


No it's been crated by the tories in fighting over the last 2 years, instead of getting on with sorting out a deal that everyone would agree with.


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## AlexPed2393

Happy Paws said:


> No it's been crated by the tories in fighting over the last 2 years, instead of getting on with sorting out a deal that everyone would agree with.


Tory infighting regarding Brexit and because of Brexit, where those who supported Remain kept coming out on top


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> We haven't, they have.


They are a representative of us, so we have


----------



## KittenKong

No wonder why my loyalties lie with politics North of the Border nowadays.

Brilliant!


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> And how do you work that one out????


People who didn't vote for this mess shouldn't be included in the "we". Not a criticism at all. Be proud to say this isn't in your name, as I am.


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## KittenKong

You couldn't make it up.

Brexiters insist no further public vote over Brexit (PV). May and Corbyn also insist on that.

Without going through the lies, cheating etc. again the Leave victory was a narrow one with two out of four countries in the UK plus Gibraltar voting against Brexit.

May regards the four countries in the UK as a single country, or her little Empire.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is her Brexit deal. Apparently despite massively losing the parliamentary vote on Tuesday there's going to be another on the 29th!!!

Who argued about voting again until the right result is achieved?

Certainly, had Remain won by 52-48% they would have been at least another two public votes by now.

I rest my case.


----------



## emmaviolet

I've nothing really to add.

I have found it very funny the last few days, those on here who were acting like I was a special kind of idiot to mention the word unicorn in this thread, it being about politics. There have been a number of articles this week with Unicorn in the headline for Brexit stories, including a great big picture of a unicorn in a Brexit story in The I (just came up on the papers report).


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> You couldn't make it up.
> 
> Brexiters insist no further public vote over Brexit (PV). May and Corbyn also insist on that.
> 
> Without going through the lies, cheating etc. again the Leave victory was a narrow one with two out of four countries in the UK plus Gibraltar voting against Brexit.
> 
> May regards the four countries in the UK as a single country, or her little Empire.
> 
> Anyway, what I'm getting at is her Brexit deal. Apparently despite massively losing the parliamentary vote on Tuesday there's going to be another on the 29th!!!
> 
> Who argued about voting again until the right result is achieved?
> 
> Certainly, had Remain won by 52-48% they would have been at least another two public votes by now.
> 
> I rest my case.


There shouldn't be another public vote as there has been several votes already to ensure the referendum even took place and then for article 50 to be put in place. No more votes

The UK is an UNITED kingdom so yeh the four countries are under one umbrella politically. Unless the countries want to be independent (which Scotland voted on and stayed as part of the union) then they stay as part of that United Kingdom.

Voting within Parliament for a deal, no deal or whatever deal is a very different story to changing the results of a referendum that was put forward for the people to vote on.

And no if leave voters lost they wouldn't have had several other votes, just as Remain hasn't had several other votes as it would be against the whole point of a democracy.

"I rest my case". sorry my lordship is everything you say correct or just an opinion just like what everyone else here writes.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> People who didn't vote for this mess shouldn't be included in the "we". Not a criticism at all. Be proud to say this isn't in your name, as I am.


I'm with you.

I take no credit or vicarious pride in what 'we' do or have done in the past unless I have been personally involved, and I don't accept any blame for it either.


----------



## Arnie83

When people voted to Leave in 2016, they knew what they, personally, wanted. They knew in their own minds what 'leave' meant for them. By the end of the kerfuffle over May's Deal, they will know what it means in reality.

Some would have been persuaded to vote Remain by the warnings of economic damage should we leave, that have proved to be not as severe as some predicted. Some would have been persuaded to vote Leave by promises of much more money for the NHS, and by the assurances that we would not lose any of the benefits of membership, or by the threat of 75 million Turks flooding across the Channel. They all now know the accuracy of what previously persuaded them one way or the other.

Some (like me) made their decisions based on factors that have not changed at all.

But democracy can only be served by asking the People, in the light of reality instead of promises and threats, what their _informed_ decision now is. There is a perfectly understandable reaction against that idea from those who fear the People might have changed their minds in the light of new facts, but claiming that reaction to be a defence of democracy is a disingenuous fig leaf that fools no-one. To refuse the People the chance to have their say is quite simply a denial of democracy.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Brexitiers tried to oust remainer May so one of them could become PM and have their chance to deliver Brexit but failed. The PM is still a remainer and the Brexitiers still haven't had a chance. The mess over Brexit has been created by a remainer PM not a Brexitier.


On the surface, perhaps. Look a little deeper, and you soon realise they didn't exactly try very hard - just enough to make it look as though they had, and then they made a rapid tactical move to the sidelines and began sniping.

I can't say I blame them from a logical perspective, they are professional politicians and negotiating Brexit was always going to be the ultimate poison chalice - avoiding career suicide was the sensible option from their point of view. But to then blame it all on May is disingenous - leading the Tory party for the last two years has been a cross between herding cats and wrangling a nest of vipers at best.

Plus, it's easy to say 'a Brexiteer would have done better' - but how, exactly, could they, given the amount of backstabbing that has gone on even when Brexiteers have been given key roles? What could they have done differently to end up with that magical deal everyone can support?

There were - and are - so many conflicting demands and beliefs as to what version of Brexit the people actually voted for (plus, of course, personal and vested interests) there was no chance of any leader (Brexiteer, Remainer or miracle worker) coming up with anything the majority would approve. Businesses don't want No Deal, or any kind of deal that makes trade significantly more difficult, and businesses pour a lot of money in to political coffers. Hardliners don't want any form of links at all with the EU, and would prefer to sever all other organisational ties with Europe too, no matter what the impact. Ireland definitely does NOT want a hard border. We can't comment on what the citizens in the street thinks of the deal, as our democratic leaders refuse to ask them, on the grounds that if given the chance to democratically choose the final outcome of the Brexit process now they know what the actual deal on the table is, people might democratically vote differently than they did before, and that would be undemocratic.


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> Tory infighting regarding Brexit and because of Brexit, where *those who supported Remain kept coming out on top*


If only it was true, I don't think either sides are coming out on top of this mess.



KittenKong said:


> People who didn't vote for this mess shouldn't be included in the "we". Not a criticism at all. Be proud to say this isn't in your name, as I am.


Well those who didn't vote will just have to put up with what happens and have no right to complain and should be shamed of themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Well, those who didn't vote will just have to put up with what happens and have no right to complain and should be shamed of themselves.


I agree as far as those who could've voted but didn't are concerned , but don't forget many weren't eligible to vote, as those living outside the UK due to the 15 year rule the Cameron administration promised to rectify but, conveniently, not before the referendum and the 16-18 year olds.

I remember myself in 1983 I was too young to vote in that GE despite a few months away from turning 18.

I found that very frustrating...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> They didn't did they, they put their names forward to become PM, but eventually TM won.


The main runners for PM all backed out and in the end, she was the only one left.


----------



## Elles

Boris dropped out. The rest were voted on until there were 2 left. The 2 were May and Leadsom. Leadsom didn’t have enough support, TM had over 60% in the run up, so Leadsom then dropped out. They didn’t all back out, Gove was a late entry, when he decided not to back Boris.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Boris dropped out. The rest were voted on until there were 2 left. The 2 were May and Leadsom. Leadsom didn't have enough support, TM had over 60% in the run up, so Leadsom then dropped out. They didn't all back out, Gove was a late entry, when he decided not to back Boris.


Brexiteer infighting costing them their chance even then, one might say


----------



## rona




----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Boris dropped out. The rest were voted on until there were 2 left. The 2 were May and Leadsom. Leadsom didn't have enough support, TM had over 60% in the run up, so Leadsom then dropped out. They didn't all back out, Gove was a late entry, when he decided not to back Boris.


Leadsom also committed several blunders like commenting on the fact that she would make a better PM than May because she was a mother, which didn't go down well and contributed to her departure leaving May the only one left!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...went-wrong-for-andrea-leadsoms-leadership-bid


----------



## Elles

I quite like Gove and Leadsom. I believe Michael Gove would make a better pm than Boris who is up for it again. Not a popular opinion on here I don’t doubt lol.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I quite like Gove and Leadsom. I believe Michael Gove would make a better pm than Boris who is up for it again. Not a popular opinion on here I don't doubt lol.


On the contrary ..... I was only thinking this morning that Gove is the man we need to to get this Brexit business over and done with.

Not Boris because he's a waffler!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Leadsom didn't have enough support,


She also made some comment about TM having no children, so therefore not as bothered about the future of the country as someone who was a parent (maybe not in so many words, but I believe she had to apologise and it showed her in a rather dubious light and lost her support).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the ministers are being treated to a weekend at Chequers so May can sell Plan B to them. I thought they where happy with it yesterday? Any excuse for a good piss up at the tax payers expense.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Just arrived in my inbox a few minutes ago .......

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en

*Read more on Brexit preparedness notices*

On 29 March 2017, the United Kingdom notified the European Council of its intention to leave the European Union. Unless a ratified withdrawal agreement establishes another date or the European Council, in accordance with Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union and in agreement with the United Kingdom, unanimously decides that the Treaties cease to apply at a later date, all Union primary and secondary law will cease to apply to the United Kingdom from 30 March 2019, 00:00h (CET) ('the withdrawal date'). The United Kingdom will then become a third country. These notices, which aim at preparing citizens and stakeholders for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom, set out the consequences in a range of policy areas.

In addition, EU decentralised agencies have published information in relation to the UK's withdrawal from the EU, for example the Community Plant Variety Office, the European Chemicals Agency, the European Medicines Agency and the European Union Intellectual Property Office. Furthermore, the three European Supervisory Authorities (the European Banking Authority, the European Securities and Markets Authority and the European Insurance and Occupational Pensions Authority) and the Single Supervisory Mechanism have issued opinions and guidance.

On 19 March 2018, the negotiators of the European Commission and the United Kingdom presented the progress made in the negotiation of a draft agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. On 23 March 2018, the European Council (Art. 50) welcomed the agreement reached on parts of the legal text and called for intensified efforts to make progress on the remaining withdrawal issues. The European Council (Art. 50) further stated that nothing was agreed until everything is agreed. This means that a transition period between 30 March 2019 and 31 December 2020 may be agreed, but this is not certain at this stage. The European Council (Art. 50) therefore called on the Commission, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and the Member States to continue the work on preparedness at all levels for the consequences of the United Kingdom's withdrawal, taking into account all possible outcomes. The notices of the Commission services published on this website respond to this request. They set out the consequences of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without a formal, ratified agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

Full information on the Article 50 negotiations.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://fullfact.org/europe/missing-eu-referendum-votes/

*No postal votes from the EU referendum are recorded as "missing"*


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> I quite like Gove and Leadsom. I believe Michael Gove would make a better pm than Boris who is up for it again. Not a popular opinion on here I don't doubt lol.





Magyarmum said:


> On the contrary ..... I was only thinking this morning that Gove is the man we need to to get this Brexit business over and done with.
> 
> Not Boris because he's a waffler!


Really, after that performance I'd rather he wasn't even an MP. What a nasty little man.

I of course agree with all he said but not it's delivery. I think even May was a bit taken aback by it


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://fullfact.org/europe/missing-eu-referendum-votes/
> 
> *No postal votes from the EU referendum are recorded as "missing"*


Hadn't seen that claim anywhere, but from first glance at it in your post it looked like a daft conspiracy theory. There are much better ones around!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Hadn't seen that claim anywhere, but from first glance at it in your post it looked like a daft conspiracy theory. There are much better ones around!


Not a conspiracy theory as far as I can see. You probably hadn't seen it before because it only affected British Expats

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...u-referendum-postal-votes-feared-lost-germany

*Thousands of EU referendum postal votes feared lost in Germany*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-electoral-commission-post-a7125711.html

*Brexit: British expats considering lawsuit over missing postal votes after hundreds denied say in EU referendum*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Not a conspiracy theory as far as I can see. You probably hadn't seen it before because it only affected British Expats
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...u-referendum-postal-votes-feared-lost-germany
> 
> *Thousands of EU referendum postal votes feared lost in Germany*
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-electoral-commission-post-a7125711.html
> 
> *Brexit: British expats considering lawsuit over missing postal votes after hundreds denied say in EU referendum*


Fair enough. Bit late!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> She also made some comment about TM having no children, so therefore not as bothered about the future of the country as someone who was a parent (maybe not in so many words, but I believe she had to apologise and it showed her in a rather dubious light and lost her support).


Yes, they can't even be pleasant amongst themselves, let alone anyone else.

As much as I dislike TM and can't wait to see her ousted she didn't deserve that, especially from someone just as vile like Leadsome.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough. Bit late!


Better late than never don't you think if only to put the matter to rest?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I quite like Gove and Leadsom. I believe Michael Gove would make a better pm than Boris who is up for it again. Not a popular opinion on here I don't doubt lol.


Don't like any of them but Gove has more brains than the other two.

Good speech.... he is waiting in the wings.
Suddenly preaching mellow Brexit... smart guy.


----------



## Eeyore

Many of you have several times wondered how this looks to an outsider, who lives in an EU-country? Well, maybe the fact that we think Trump and Brexit have lots in common, especially the way the choices were made, clarifies that. First, both election campaigns were tampered with and bent, backed up by Putin, hard wing nationalists and extremists organisations and people aiming at denying climate change, promoting total freedom for corporations to use/abuse the world as they pleased, and using populist parties as their spokespersons. 

Ordinary people believed the slogans and fake news, and many genuinely believed that finally they were listed to. Naturally, as they were addressed directly, their concerns were addressed and the promises kept telling how all will be well, if only Brexit/Trump were chosen. Messages were so easy to understand too. 
And long time before this, unfortunately, little people had been forgotten. In Britain NHS was poorly funded, social security stripped down to a bare minimum so no wonder so many wanted to believe that finally a saviour had come in the form of Brexit/Trump. Not their fault in any way. 350, 000, 000 is a big carrot. 

But, and what a but it is. It was just a scam, a con to get even bigger villains into power, people, who really couldn´t care less about anybody but the interest of big money. Trump has proven what he really is deep down. The little poor people had (like Obamacare and some protection of the environment) were abolished and the discussion was diverted into immigration. Just like in Russia. When Putin has problems back home, the public discussion starts bashing minorities. They really do work as scapegoats for just about any problem. So just like in Russia, in the US the main topic is about the Mexican wall and the problems immigration causes. Not about the facts that the lives of an ordinary Joe didn´t get better. And just like in Brexit, where the problems of Brexit were diverted into discussion about immigration. Does anyone really think this is just a coincidence? Really? Deep down? As a fact is, a real fact that is, something that can be proven, calculated and in any possible way demonstrated to be true is that in both US and Britain the number of immigrating people is at it´s lowest in five years. So, again, do you really think it is a coincident that suddenly there is a huge immigration problem? 

So following news about Brexit and Britain creates just about the same images we get from reading about Trump. Lots of sympathy for the ordinary people, but at the same time wondering that have they really have no idea of what is going on in the world? 

In comparison: EU has successfully taken big corporations to court and made them pay taxes, taken countries into court for not respecting human rights or providing equal business opportunities for all business, not just corporations. A question: whose´s side do you think EU is, based on the facts? And whose side Brexit and Trump is, based on the facts?


----------



## KittenKong

More bare faced lies from DFDS* Liam Fox who reportedly earlier assured everyone he had secured deals.

How can anyone honestly trust this lot to run the UK after Brexit, even if in favour of it?










* Disgraced Former Defence Secretary.


----------



## Elles

I thought they couldn’t do much until we’ve left, or know what deal we’re getting.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Eeyore said:


> Many of you have several times wondered how this looks to an outsider, who lives in an EU-country? Well, maybe the fact that we think Trump and Brexit have lots in common, especially the way the choices were made, clarifies that. First, both election campaigns were tampered with and bent, backed up by Putin, hard wing nationalists and extremists organisations and people aiming at denying climate change, promoting total freedom for corporations to use/abuse the world as they pleased, and using populist parties as their spokespersons.
> 
> Ordinary people believed the slogans and fake news, and many genuinely believed that finally they were listed to. Naturally, as they were addressed directly, their concerns were addressed and the promises kept telling how all will be well, if only Brexit/Trump were chosen. Messages were so easy to understand too.
> And long time before this, unfortunately, little people had been forgotten. In Britain NHS was poorly funded, social security stripped down to a bare minimum so no wonder so many wanted to believe that finally a saviour had come in the form of Brexit/Trump. Not their fault in any way. 350, 000, 000 is a big carrot.
> 
> But, and what a but it is. It was just a scam, a con to get even bigger villains into power, people, who really couldn´t care less about anybody but the interest of big money. Trump has proven what he really is deep down. The little poor people had (like Obamacare and some protection of the environment) were abolished and the discussion was diverted into immigration. Just like in Russia. When Putin has problems back home, the public discussion starts bashing minorities. They really do work as scapegoats for just about any problem. So just like in Russia, in the US the main topic is about the Mexican wall and the problems immigration causes. Not about the facts that the lives of an ordinary Joe didn´t get better. And just like in Brexit, where the problems of Brexit were diverted into discussion about immigration. Does anyone really think this is just a coincidence? Really? Deep down? As a fact is, a real fact that is, something that can be proven, calculated and in any possible way demonstrated to be true is that in both US and Britain the number of immigrating people is at it´s lowest in five years. So, again, do you really think it is a coincident that suddenly there is a huge immigration problem?
> 
> So following news about Brexit and Britain creates just about the same images we get from reading about Trump. Lots of sympathy for the ordinary people, but at the same time wondering that have they really have no idea of what is going on in the world?
> 
> In comparison: EU has successfully taken big corporations to court and made them pay taxes, taken countries into court for not respecting human rights or providing equal business opportunities for all business, not just corporations. A question: whose´s side do you think EU is, based on the facts? And whose side Brexit and Trump is, based on the facts?


Farage will disagree.
EU is to swallow us whole like the Jonah's whale.
Tyranny and oppression. They are to blame for lack of placement in schools, hospitals, lack of housing, Islamic extremists, rising crime and lack of police.
Extraorbitant tuition fees 
Lack of border control and not implementing measures other EU countries did.

Tory government firmly assigned the blame: EU is evil, they exploited our people.

Now in defense of the people they will be taken out, on a deal they have no decision over.
No matter what NI, Gibraltar, Scotland, Wales might want England decided.

Why should government honour Good Friday agreement if it stops them from getting their way?

Or constitution of Gibraltar ?

Nothing will stop the quest for freedom.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> More bare faced lies from DFDS* Liam Fox who reportedly earlier assured everyone he had secured deals.
> 
> How can anyone honestly trust this lot to run the UK after Brexit, even if in favour of it?
> 
> View attachment 388891
> 
> 
> * Disgraced Former Defence Secretary.


How can you trust Corbyn? It was found out he is not fond of the EU at all:-










His game is to get into power and screw over those that voted him into power. He wants to turn the UK back to the 1970's.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I quite like Gove and Leadsom.


The one I thought spoke convincingly before the referendum (tho' she's Labour) was Gisela Stuart. She has recently said that to consider a second referendum before the first one has even been implemented is pretty much unthinkable.


----------



## KittenKong

She's seriously deluded yet they consider her fit to be PM?

I guess she's expecting to overturn a 230 vote defeat when parliament again votes on her Brexit plan on the 29th.

Seems to have even alarmed her cheerleaders the Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ing-eu-leaders/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## rona

rona said:


> Farage maybe :Jawdrop :Joyful :Joyful :Singing


Hahaha
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918000

I'm psychic


----------



## Magyarmum

I thought this was an interesting article about what might happen next with Brexit.

https://vacancysoft.com/what-does-game-theory-tell-us-about-the-next-phase-of-brexit/










For those who don't know what "game theory" is, here's a short explanation.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gametheory.asp


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I thought they couldn't do much until we've left, or know what deal we're getting.


What Fox is referring / admitting to is that agreements to simply continue the existing 40 trade deals that we have via the EU have not materialised. In a couple of months they will no longer be valid if there is a No Deal Brexit.

Caveat: I believe we have a signed agreement with Switzerland to continue as now "as far as possible", which term isn't defined as far as I know.

Edit: Liam Fox believes it is still possible to get all these 40 agreements signed (it isn't) so long as the other countries are "willing to put the work in". So it's their fault. Which sort of ignores the fact that the governments of these other countries have a duty to their voters to try to get a better deal with the UK than they struck with the 5-times-larger EU.


----------



## Magyarmum

Another interesting article by Yanis Varoufakis former Finance Minister of Greece.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ament-brexit-vote-by-yanis-varoufakis-2019-01

*Run Down the Brexit Clock*


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Another interesting article by Yanis Varoufakis former Finance Minister of Greece.
> 
> https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ament-brexit-vote-by-yanis-varoufakis-2019-01
> 
> *Run Down the Brexit Clock*


Breath of fresh air. Very good and the various Eu country leaders (Macron/Merkel in particular) have already been hinting at it.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Another interesting article by Yanis Varoufakis former Finance Minister of Greece.
> 
> https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ament-brexit-vote-by-yanis-varoufakis-2019-01
> 
> *Run Down the Brexit Clock*


It _is_ interesting; thank you.

Whether Varoufakis would be prepared to take his own advice were he in the middle of all this rather than an interested bystander is open to question!

I do wonder, when he talks about leaving, negotiating and then potentially rejoining, whether he thinks the UK would stand a hope in hell of retaining the exceptional benefits which it currently enjoys - like the rebate, opt-out of Schengen, opt-out of bail-outs, the euro etc. It would be quite some gamble!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It _is_ interesting; thank you.
> 
> Whether Varoufakis would be prepared to take his own advice were he in the middle of all this rather than an interested bystander is open to question!
> 
> I do wonder, when he talks about leaving, negotiating and then potentially rejoining, whether he thinks the UK would stand a hope in hell of retaining the exceptional benefits which it currently enjoys - like the rebate, opt-out of Schengen, opt-out of bail-outs, the euro etc. It would be quite some gamble!


I would guess it depends on whether the Eu wanted us to rejoin and who was leading it. In the future it will be different people in charge of all of it and the various Eu countries will probably be in a different position. I don't really think we can judge future possibilities on today's standards. Clearly with all our options, addendums, provisos and quid pro quo we weren't really that committed to it.

That's what I was saying about the young of today being the leaders of tomorrow and nothing being written in stone. We aren't ruining anyone's futures, the future will be theirs, we are trying to improve it and give them options not destroy it. 

I particularly like the article, because it is trying to address the conundrum and consider possible solutions, not just rant at whose fault they think it is with some fairytale ideas of who could have done better if only they were in charge.


----------



## Calvine




----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Hahaha
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918000
> 
> I'm psychic


 The more I think about it, the more I think he couldn't make things any worse, whatever he did!!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> What Fox is referring / admitting to is that agreements to simply continue the existing 40 trade deals that we have via the EU have not materialised. In a couple of months they will no longer be valid if there is a No Deal Brexit.
> 
> Caveat: I believe we have a signed agreement with Switzerland to continue as now "as far as possible", which term isn't defined as far as I know.
> 
> Edit: Liam Fox believes it is still possible to get all these 40 agreements signed (it isn't) so long as the other countries are "willing to put the work in". So it's their fault. Which sort of ignores the fact that the governments of these other countries have a duty to their voters to try to get a better deal with the UK than they struck with the 5-times-larger EU.


Using their logic, perhaps I should put my entire next pay on a roulette wheel as I'm sure I'm going to win it!


----------



## Eeyore

This is how we see it in EU: Leavers were made promises no one can keep, as they were based on lies, the original purpose was to help conservative party to ensure they will win the election. No one really expected leavers to win and so not enough people cared about empty promises and lies. Now they are faced with the reality and have no idea how to get out of it. How can they admit that "delivering" Brexit means delivering poverty and loss of power, as that would mean they´d have to admit they risked the nation´s future to win an election. No wonder people, who knew that left. Political suicide missions aren´t exactly popular. Hence May is a good front, as she wants to stay a PM as long as possible, no matter what it takes. 
So what are the choices: 

NO Brexit > UK will keep on enjoying all the benefits with all the powers to influence EU to act what benefits UK. (you have been really good negotiators before, apparently, and got about 90% of your wishes accepted.) You also had perks no one else had, thanks to Maggie. 
Norway model > you get most benefits, but you pay a bit more, but have no power to influence EU anymore. Still, financially beneficial and people could have freedom to live in EU. Norwegians can afford that, they are really rich because of oil.Also they are used to free movement anyway as part of Scandinavia, no problematic borders. Could UK afford that? 
Canadian model- close to Norway, but as Canada isn´t in Europe, so will it really be a good model. But similar principles, many benefits, you pay with no influence
May´s model? I never really understood that, lots of uncertainties and contradictions, no one was happy with that. But how could she deliver a deal that would give UK what you had without pay? Or give you freedom to do business, but no freedom for people? Norway model delivers both, May´s did not. 
A new deal ? This is what we suspect will happen: there will be a deal, which tries to maintain as much it can from EU membership and somehow keep UK in so that it could have power in EU, and it will be just called in a different name. Politicians will say how they managed to get a good deal and Brits will buy it, naturally, as the more it resembles the existing relationship with EU, the better for the British. After all, UK used to be very practical and business orientated nation, who just lost it for a while. 
No deal - well, welcome Trump, Putin, Farage, Boris, Jacobs and all who really will abuse and rob British blindly, as long as they have immigration and EU to blame. Thankfully enough conservatives had enough integrity to reject that, but bli**y, it took long to find that. 
Meanwhile in EU > no one wants to leave EU, as Brexit really shows that after two years of desperate attempts to come up with any benefit from leaving, Brexiteers found none. Absolutely nothing. (unless you believe the lies brexit-politicians say. We don´t). So for us it really proved that staying in EU is beneficial for all nations, who are in. So even now, with all it´s faults, it is still great.

But good luck, as you will really need it. UK is really a mess now and brexit was a big mistake that never should have taken place. Now you need someone with enough integrity in government to say it clearly and loudly enough, so that you can have a better future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Eeyore said:


> This is how we see it in EU: Leavers were made promises no one can keep, as they were based on lies, the original purpose was to help conservative party to ensure they will win the election. No one really expected leavers to win and so not enough people cared about empty promises and lies. Now they are faced with the reality and have no idea how to get out of it. How can they admit that "delivering" Brexit means delivering poverty and loss of power, as that would mean they´d have to admit they risked the nation´s future to win an election. No wonder people, who knew that left. Political suicide missions aren´t exactly popular. Hence May is a good front, as she wants to stay a PM as long as possible, no matter what it takes.
> So what are the choices:
> 
> NO Brexit > UK will keep on enjoying all the benefits with all the powers to influence EU to act what benefits UK. (you have been really good negotiators before, apparently, and got about 90% of your wishes accepted.) You also had perks no one else had, thanks to Maggie.
> Norway model > you get most benefits, but you pay a bit more, but have no power to influence EU anymore. Still, financially beneficial and people could have freedom to live in EU. Norwegians can afford that, they are really rich because of oil.Also they are used to free movement anyway as part of Scandinavia, no problematic borders. Could UK afford that?
> Canadian model- close to Norway, but as Canada isn´t in Europe, so will it really be a good model. But similar principles, many benefits, you pay with no influence
> May´s model? I never really understood that, lots of uncertainties and contradictions, no one was happy with that. But how could she deliver a deal that would give UK what you had without pay? Or give you freedom to do business, but no freedom for people? Norway model delivers both, May´s did not.
> A new deal ? This is what we suspect will happen: there will be a deal, which tries to maintain as much it can from EU membership and somehow keep UK in so that it could have power in EU, and it will be just called in a different name. Politicians will say how they managed to get a good deal and Brits will buy it, naturally, as the more it resembles the existing relationship with EU, the better for the British. After all, UK used to be very practical and business orientated nation, who just lost it for a while.
> No deal - well, welcome Trump, Putin, Farage, Boris, Jacobs and all who really will abuse and rob British blindly, as long as they have immigration and EU to blame. Thankfully enough conservatives had enough integrity to reject that, but bli**y, it took long to find that.
> Meanwhile in EU > no one wants to leave EU, as Brexit really shows that after two years of desperate attempts to come up with any benefit from leaving, Brexiteers found none. Absolutely nothing. (unless you believe the lies brexit-politicians say. We don´t). So for us it really proved that staying in EU is beneficial for all nations, who are in. So even now, with all it´s faults, it is still great.
> 
> But good luck, as you will really need it. UK is really a mess now and brexit was a big mistake that never should have taken place. Now you need someone with enough integrity in government to say it clearly and loudly enough, so that you can have a better future.


I am leaving. Quitting my job, my house and leaving, OH wants to stay but he is outvoted, kids have to go as under 18 have no say.
They seem to moan and panic, but I am sure we will all better for it.
We both had jobs and a house, but had to comply with bosses and management, now we are free...

It much more than money can buy ...

I am sure we will be all right.... who needs money or a house?


----------



## Elles

Taking up living off the grid? Ireland might be a good spot, next to the Eu, but with no border planned.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...ottage-theyve-lovingly-restored-35978598.html


----------



## Magyarmum

A fascinating article from The Independent.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/most-us-never-change-minds-160158280.html

*Most of us will never change our minds about Brexit no matter what happens - our brains simply can't*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> A fascinating article from The Independent.
> 
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/most-us-never-change-minds-160158280.html
> 
> *Most of us will never change our minds about Brexit no matter what happens - our brains simply can't*


Needless to say, I completely agree with this, since it's what I've been banging on about since the start!

... it is not just a case of "I made a decision to Leave or Remain and now, on the basis of new information, I can change my mind," because it is more: "I am fused with my decision, my decision is part of my identity, the person I see myself as, and the group I believe I belong to - 'I am' a Leaver versus a Remainer or visa versa." *The argument is tribal.* It's my group identity against the other, or my party against the other.​
And with this, for the same reason.

When a politician argues that a second referendum is a betrayal of democracy we know we're dealing with a serious problem because there's no way in the world that they actually believe that. Imagine going to buy a house and you are enthusiastic. Clearly you are free to pull out on the basis of new information. *Clearly people should always be allowed to make decisions on the basis of new information; that is the basis of democracy not a betrayal of it.*​


----------



## Happy Paws2

We aren't allowed another vote, but May is having one on her deal


----------



## Elles

If no one will change their mind, what’s the point in a second referendum on the basis of new information?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If no one will change their mind, what's the point in a second referendum on the basis of new information?


It won't be 'no-one'. A lot of people won't change their minds and aren't even interested in what facts have changed, but there will be some who will know that they were sold a fairy tale that began to dissolve into mist on the day after the referendum.

E.g. had Individual Associate EU Citizenship been made available, as was mooted, I might have abstained in a further referendum, since my European identity would not be stripped from me.

But in addition, of course, are those who are now eligible to vote, or otherwise. New information and new voters will allow the current 'People' to make a decision of which Parliament seem incapable, before an irrevocable step is forced by the machinations of a minority faction.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see Jacob Rees Mogg has decided he is going to back Plan B his reason: Having some form of deal is better than having no Brexit at all.

I have a feeling Plan B is going to pass through Parliament and then the ball is back in the EU's court so to speak. If the EU turn the deal down then it is no deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

In case of GE there is always the next one.

Not in this case.
If Brexit was s product it definitely was missold.

Market recall.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> In case of GE there is always the next one.
> 
> Not in this case.
> If Brexit was s product it definitely was missold.
> 
> Market recall.


There won't be a GE before 2022. Corbyn cannot get a no confidence vote against the Government through Parliament as the numbers don't stack up.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I see Jacob Rees Mogg has decided he is going to back Plan B his reason: Having some form of deal is better than having no Brexit at all.
> 
> I have a feeling Plan B is going to pass through Parliament and then the ball is back in the EU's court so to speak. If the EU turn the deal down then it is no deal.


JRM was saying that negotiations under WTO will be very easy . Same was said about Brexit...

Maybe even JRM if has any political aspirations will not put his name under leading his nation into financial disaster with full awareness of it.

Bank of England has spoken.
They are the body responsible for risk assessment as to financial stability.

City is attractive for international business as long as it is strong and stable.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> There won't be a GE before 2022. Corbyn cannot get a no confidence vote against the Government through Parliament as the numbers don't stack up.


I meant Brexit and second referendum.

People should be told what is possible, why No Deal is not acceptable even for Gove or JRM.
Then clearly outlined Deal or Remain to choose from.
Same as when you buy a house or change a job?

You get a contract, you get rapport from surveyor and decide if the changes are worth it.
Would you buy anything just on the word of an estate agent or recruiting agency?


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I meant Brexit and second referendum.
> 
> People should be told what is possible, why No Deal is not acceptable even for Gove or JRM.
> Then clearly outlined Deal or Remain to choose from.
> Same as when you buy a house or change a job?
> 
> You get a contract, you get rapport from surveyor and decide if the changes are worth it.
> Would you buy anything just on the word of an estate agent or recruiting agency?


I think people are fed up with the doom mongering from some remainers. There won't be another referendum.

There is alot of support for Plan B by the way. That was what was being said on Thursday last week.

Feel free to dictate your fear mongering but frankly I am not interested.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I think people are fed up with the doom mongering from some remainers. There won't be another referendum.
> 
> There is alot of support for Plan B by the way. That was what was being said on Thursday last week.
> 
> Feel free to dictate your fear mongering but frankly I am not interested.


All facts about false promises and all about the reality of No Deal are dismissed as scare mongering , sadly with no shred of evidence to prove those fears are unsubstantiated.

ERG are masters in obfuscation but very short on veracity.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *I see Jacob Rees Mogg has decided he is going to back Plan B *his reason: Having some form of deal is better than having no Brexit at all.
> 
> *I have a feeling Plan B is going to pass through Parliament *and then the ball is back in the EU's court so to speak. If the EU turn the deal down then it is no deal.





stockwellcat. said:


> *There is alot of support for Plan B *by the way. That was what was being said on Thursday last week.


What is Plan B? Do you have a source? Unless I've missed something there is no Plan B at the moment. May should be announcing her proposed way forwards tomorrow.

And do you have a source for Rees-Mogg's support for whatever Plan B is supposed to be?


----------



## Elles

I would think most politicians are terrified of leaving the Eu. It’s all most of them have known and they’re used to the Eu sorting a lot of things out for them. It’s understandable that they want to remain really, much easier, more familiar and comfortable for them.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I would think most politicians are terrified of leaving the Eu. It's all most of them have known and they're used to the Eu sorting a lot of things out for them. It's understandable that they want to remain really, much easier, more familiar and comfortable for them.


You don't really think that, do you?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> You don't really think that, do you?


Of course. We've been in the Eu for a long time, we're very intertwined with it. When we leave, our own government will have a heck of a lot of paperwork and negotiating, just to get something similar to what we already have. I shouldn't think civil servants are exactly looking forward to it either. I wouldn't want to be looking at international laws, sorting out policing and all the rules and regulations that have been a part of the U.K. in the Eu and trying to take us out without too much disruption, would you?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Of course. We've been in the Eu for a long time, we're very intertwined with it. When we leave, our own government will have a heck of a lot of paperwork and negotiating, just to get something similar to what we already have. I shouldn't think civil servants are exactly looking forward to it either. I wouldn't want to be looking at international laws, sorting out policing and all the rules and regulations that have been a part of the U.K. in the Eu and trying to take us out without too much disruption, would you?


The whole thing is going to be a nightmare.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Of course. We've been in the Eu for a long time, we're very intertwined with it. When we leave, our own government will have a heck of a lot of paperwork and negotiating, just to get something similar to what we already have. I shouldn't think civil servants are exactly looking forward to it either. I wouldn't want to be looking at international laws, sorting out policing and all the rules and regulations that have been a part of the U.K. in the Eu and trying to take us out without too much disruption, would you?


If I was a Brexiter I'd be very worried about leaving all this to a bunch of incompetents and liars such as May and her government who said they don't need experts for a start...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Of course. We've been in the Eu for a long time, we're very intertwined with it. When we leave, our own government will have a heck of a lot of paperwork and negotiating, just to get something similar to what we already have. I shouldn't think civil servants are exactly looking forward to it either. I wouldn't want to be looking at international laws, sorting out policing and all the rules and regulations that have been a part of the U.K. in the Eu and trying to take us out without too much disruption, would you?


.

Disruption on that scale will be a very serious blow.

If you are unregulated territory and all your trade agreement are null and void you simply cannot trade. 
Export and import impossible.
Yet lambs will be born, suppliers need supplies, factories need to work...

No one in a sound mind should want that to happen and no government will take responsibility for fronting such a calamity.
Uncertainty already caused very significant damage to our and British economy.

All trade needs regulations, if we are out of Customs Union we need the new regulations, army of trained people and infrastructure for example, it cannot be done in few weeks, it cost a fortune.

The whole idea of EU was to pull together, be stronger and LOWER THE COST.

Now like Trump we are building a Wall .

To compensate for the extra costs and still keep the price and quality of our products we will have to do what?
Reduce the jobs or the wages?

Joe Blogg may call it fear mongering but those costs are very real and Joe Blogg once he gets hit by job loss or higher prices will be very angry.


----------



## KittenKong

Rumour has it they could be a General Election at the end of February.

This would be one way of May getting her Brexit deal passed if this is in the Theresa May, sorry Tory manifesto.

She would of course win it, perhaps narrowly again who knows. She'll use her Brexit plan as a mandate for its support should she go ahead and call a GE and win it.


----------



## Elles

Trouble is, big isn’t always better. America, Russia, China, they’re big. Smaller countries on the edge of Europe/Eu seem to be doing fine. Mostly better than we are for the people who live there. The idea of smaller countries joining together in some kind of co-op, but still keeping their own identity was a good one imho. I think though that many fear that the Eu is going too far now. Super state, not a friendly co-operative and mistakes affect all of us, across the whole Eu. Better that mistakes are contained, smaller and more individual maybe.

I agree there will be some disruption, no-one has left the Eu before. The experts still can’t predict how much, or for how long as we still have no idea what, if any, deal there will be. The experts were unanimous that the pound would suffer if TM’s deal were rejected. It was rejected, yet the pound actually strengthened. We are in such uncharted territory the experts repeatedly get it wrong. 

It does seem that the majority of people do want some kind of deal/ relationship with the rest of Europe, just not how the Eu organise it.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> What is Plan B? Do you have a source? Unless I've missed something there is no Plan B at the moment. May should be announcing her proposed way forwards tomorrow.
> 
> And do you have a source for Rees-Mogg's support for whatever Plan B is supposed to be?


This is what Robert Peston has to say about it:

The government latest possible Brexit plan B, the idea of replacing the widely hated Northern Ireland backstop with a bilateral treaty between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, is never going to work.

For the EU, it is simply crackers.

The whole reason for the backstop being in the Withdrawal Agreement that sets out the terms of the UK's divorce from the EU is that the Republic's border with Northern Ireland would after Brexit be the external border of the EU's single market - and therefore has to be governed by a treaty between the UK and EU, and not one between the UK and the ROI.

An official from an EU capital also questioned whether the Republic could possibly accept "a bilateralisation that would deprive it of the clout of the EU".

For what it's worth, about half the cabinet seem to know this idea is never going to fly. One senior minister scathingly said about the plan "we need to think out of the box given where we are but I am not sure we can dignify this as an idea".

Another added: "if we are going to get Brexit it's us who will have to compromise, and especially the Brexiteers; the EU is simply never going to move that far".

So another way out of the Brexit impasse for Theresa May bites the dust.

Oh well.

And as the minutes to Brexit day on 29 March keep ticking past, the roadblocks just keep being erected.

One important new one is that Leave Means Leave, the cross-party pro-Brexit campaigning group, has appointed silk and solicitors to sue the government to make sure the UK can participate in elections to the European Parliament in May, in the event that the UK applies for and is granted to a delay to Brexit day.

Leave Means Leave will also write to the Electoral Commission this week to make sure that the Commission has the wherewithal to oversee those elections, if it comes to that.

You might wonder why a Brexit movement would want those elections to take place here.

It could be a gambit of semi genius by them - because under the proportional representation system used for those elections the UK would probably send to the European Parliament a preponderance of MEPs who all hate the EU.

This is all the more likely because Nigel Farage has confirmed that he would re-enter active politics as a candidate for a brand new party, with the name - you guessed it - of the "Brexit Party".

He told me that he had given his blessing to another former UKIPer, Catherine Blaiklock, to set up the new party. And that although he he has no desire to become a campaigning politician again, if the government "drops the Brexit ball, I will be back".

For those who remember when Millwall supporters were the most truculent and troublesome in the world, the outcome of UK elections to the EU parliament in just four months would probably be the equivalent of sending Millwall supporters into the Vatican for the Easter service.

Which could be seen as performance art on a national scale - or may better be seen as a warning to the rest of the EU not to allow the UK to delay its Brexit, should the government be forced to request a Brexit delay (as per my note of earlier today).


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Trouble is, big isn't always better. America, Russia, China, they're big. Smaller countries on the edge of Europe/Eu seem to be doing fine. Mostly better than we are for the people who live there. The idea of smaller countries joining together in some kind of co-op, but still keeping their own identity was a good one imho. I think though that many fear that the Eu is going too far now. Super state, not a friendly co-operative and mistakes affect all of us, across the whole Eu. Better that mistakes are contained, smaller and more individual maybe.
> 
> I agree there will be some disruption, no-one has left the Eu before. The experts still can't predict how much, or for how long as we still have no idea what, if any, deal there will be. The experts were unanimous that the pound would suffer if TM's deal were rejected. It was rejected, yet the pound actually strengthened. We are in such uncharted territory the experts repeatedly get it wrong.
> 
> It does seem that the majority of people do want some kind of deal/ relationship with the rest of Europe, just not how the Eu organise it.


I expected the pound to go up, it shows that markets see No Deal as unlikely.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I expected the pound to go up, it shows that markets see No Deal as unlikely.


So you knew better than the experts?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So you knew better than the experts?


I might be wrong, but if memory serve Scrippy works in the relevant sector to know that kind of thing...


----------



## Magyarmum

I watched this with interest earlier today on CNN - Fareed Zakaria GPS, on Brexit, the EU and his interview with Blair.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> I might be wrong, but if memory serve Scrippy works in the relevant sector to know that kind of thing...


Doesn't really matter, it was a joke.  All the usual experts that we're supposed to listen to got it wrong, again. The polls are regularly wrong, the experts are regularly wrong. We're in uncharted water. Britain hasn't left the Eu before. We're all guessing and even educated guesses haven't been right.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So you knew better than the experts?


I expected the pound to go up as well. The vote against May's Deal had already been factored in over the previous days because everyone knew it was going to fail. The the comments coming out of Westminster the chances of No Deal were diminishing, reducing the chances of a crash. Hence the pound goes up. But it is certainly volatile.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I see some remainers have their crsytal balls out again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I predict that plan b will get through Parliament and the EU will reject it and the UK leaves with no deal. Parliament think they have a say over no deal but they don't in this case.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I also Predict Corbyn won't heed to Labour back benchers demands to back a second referendum or Peoples vote and will try and push a no confidence vote again against the Government and lose.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> I expected the pound to go up, it shows that markets see No Deal as unlikely.


MP's don't get a say over no deal. They are fooling remainers into thinking they can stop no deal when they cannot. May cannot take no deal off the table because the EU may reject plan b and then it will be no deal. Article 50 is not being extended even if it was the EU Leaders have already said they will only allow a couple of months for a General Election. There is not enough time to negotiate a new deal. Ireland makes me laugh when they say they won't accept a bilateral agreement with the UK, they already have one the CTA which was formed after the Irish Civil war in the 1920's and predates the Common Market aka EEC, EC and EU.

I see the pound going up if MP's back Plan B and the Euro slumping when the EU reject it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Seeing as some remainers like polls. Here is one for you:
*Most Britons oppose second EU referendum, Sky Data poll reveals*

56% said no to a second referendum only 44% said yes.

https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019


----------



## KittenKong

Now TM believes she can amend the GF agreement. God help us.

Note the source- not a left wing nor pro Brexit one.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...brexit-deadlock-daily-telegraph-idUKKCN1PE0W2


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I answered this in my previous post.
> 
> I care about the NHS and I want to leave the EU. The world is not going to collapse if/when we leave the EU and neither will the NHS. Everything is potentially catastrophic to the NHS in its current state and it needs a total re haul.
> 
> We are still paying to bail out these countries and getting the money back in loan payments over long periods of time which yes we aren't paying in that sense but it is taking a huge chunk out of that yearly budget.


The tories have brought our NHS to its knees. The NHS crisis is deliberately manufactured by them as they are fully privatising it. They are remodelling it on the dire US health service. Brexit will be the nail in the coffin, it plays straight into their hands.

We know brexit will be potentially catastrophic - actual impact assessments have been done. Are you really disputing practically the entire medical communities evaluation on the impact leaving the EU will have on the NHS. Do you believe you are better informed than they are? or have you based your opinion on evidence from somewhere? If so, can you provide references please.







































AlexPed2393 said:


> I
> 
> We are still paying to bail out these countries and getting the money back in loan payments over long periods of time which yes we aren't paying in that sense but it is taking a huge chunk out of that yearly budget.


And can you provide references to support your assertions please.

Overall our annual contribution to the EU is tiny. By comparison, how much do you think the cost of leaving will be? The government is already wasting billions on it & for what benefit? Can you name any tangible benefits?










I've had a look at this link you provided - https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/29/10-eu-laws-that-could-get-scrapped-after-brexit-6541477/

The reason you voted to leave is the main reason I voted to remain. Deregulation.

This is why brexitremist politicians loathe the EU. Its no coincidence that many pushing for us to leave see environmental protection, workers rights and so on, as unnecessary red tape.

Do you want to scrap our Climate change directive?? We have 12 years to save the planet from catastrophic climate breakdown & the leave head bangers are a bunch of greedy climate deniers. This alone should put the fear of god in most people. This was my main consideration when I voted. I don't think there is anything more important than saving the biosphere all lifeforms depend upon.










You want to scrap child benefit for migrant workers?

_HMRC says in 2013/14 newly arrived EU migrants paid £2.5bn more in tax than they took in tax credits & child benefit - *they paid their way *_

.............................................................................

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

From 2016. Interesting.

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...-god-command-the-uk-to-leave-the-eu/89427.htm


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I predict that plan b will get through Parliament and the EU will reject it and the UK leaves with no deal. Parliament think they have a say over no deal but they don't in this case.


What Plan B? At time of writing there isn't one. We will find out more this afternoon.

If the Commons instruct the government via a democratic vote to ask for an extension (which will probably be granted) or to revoke Article 50 in preference to allowing a No Deal to happen, then that is what would happen. The latter option clearly demonstrates their power to prevent No Deal should it be the will of Parliament.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-46921529


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> From 2016. Interesting.
> 
> https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...-god-command-the-uk-to-leave-the-eu/89427.htm
> 
> View attachment 389350


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/christiantoday-info/

*CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE*

Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category _may_ publish unverifiable information that is _not always_ supported by evidence. These sources _may_ be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information, therefore fact checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I watched this with interest earlier today on CNN - Fareed Zakaria GPS, on Brexit, the EU and his interview with Blair.


 I hate Blair but he did say one thing That May has an impossible task . perhaps he's right .


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> What Plan B? At time of writing there isn't one. We will find out more this afternoon.
> 
> If the Commons instruct the government via a democratic vote to ask for an extension (which will probably be granted) or to revoke Article 50 in preference to allowing a No Deal to happen, then that is what would happen. The latter option clearly demonstrates their power to prevent No Deal should it be the will of Parliament.


Looks like its going to be this Arnie

*David Lammy*‏:
_After the biggest government defeat on record, it looks like the PM is returning with the same deal plus added recklessness towards the Good Friday Agreement. Showing the same careless indifference to the peace agreement as to the future of this country

Another new low for @theresa_may. Playing fast and loose with the Good Friday agreement (ratified by referendum on both sides of the border) purely to win support for her dodgy Brexit deal and cling onto the keys to number 10. Unforgivably reckless.








_


----------



## noushka05

Eeyore said:


> Many of you have several times wondered how this looks to an outsider, who lives in an EU-country? Well, maybe the fact that we think Trump and Brexit have lots in common, especially the way the choices were made, clarifies that. First, both election campaigns were tampered with and bent, backed up by Putin, hard wing nationalists and extremists organisations and people aiming at denying climate change, promoting total freedom for corporations to use/abuse the world as they pleased, and using populist parties as their spokespersons.
> 
> Ordinary people believed the slogans and fake news, and many genuinely believed that finally they were listed to. Naturally, as they were addressed directly, their concerns were addressed and the promises kept telling how all will be well, if only Brexit/Trump were chosen. Messages were so easy to understand too.
> And long time before this, unfortunately, little people had been forgotten. In Britain NHS was poorly funded, social security stripped down to a bare minimum so no wonder so many wanted to believe that finally a saviour had come in the form of Brexit/Trump. Not their fault in any way. 350, 000, 000 is a big carrot.
> 
> But, and what a but it is. It was just a scam, a con to get even bigger villains into power, people, who really couldn´t care less about anybody but the interest of big money. Trump has proven what he really is deep down. The little poor people had (like Obamacare and some protection of the environment) were abolished and the discussion was diverted into immigration. Just like in Russia. When Putin has problems back home, the public discussion starts bashing minorities. They really do work as scapegoats for just about any problem. So just like in Russia, in the US the main topic is about the Mexican wall and the problems immigration causes. Not about the facts that the lives of an ordinary Joe didn´t get better. And just like in Brexit, where the problems of Brexit were diverted into discussion about immigration. Does anyone really think this is just a coincidence? Really? Deep down? As a fact is, a real fact that is, something that can be proven, calculated and in any possible way demonstrated to be true is that in both US and Britain the number of immigrating people is at it´s lowest in five years. So, again, do you really think it is a coincident that suddenly there is a huge immigration problem?
> 
> So following news about Brexit and Britain creates just about the same images we get from reading about Trump. Lots of sympathy for the ordinary people, but at the same time wondering that have they really have no idea of what is going on in the world?
> 
> In comparison: EU has successfully taken big corporations to court and made them pay taxes, taken countries into court for not respecting human rights or providing equal business opportunities for all business, not just corporations. A question: whose´s side do you think EU is, based on the facts? And whose side Brexit and Trump is, based on the facts?


Great post, Eeyore!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Looks like its going to be this Arnie
> 
> *David Lammy*‏:
> _After the biggest government defeat on record, it looks like the PM is returning with the same deal plus added recklessness towards the Good Friday Agreement. Showing the same careless indifference to the peace agreement as to the future of this country
> 
> Another new low for @theresa_may. Playing fast and loose with the Good Friday agreement (ratified by referendum on both sides of the border) purely to win support for her dodgy Brexit deal and cling onto the keys to number 10. Unforgivably reckless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


I'm not sure that's a starter, let alone a winner, but I have since seen reports that have refuted it.

E.g. the Beeb:

*Norman Smith, BBC assistant political editor, said anyone waiting for a Plan B would be "stuck at the bus stop for an awfully long time".

He said that reports over the weekend of the possibility of a bi-lateral agreement with the Irish Republic or a rewriting of the Good Friday Agreement had been "kiboshed" by both governments.*​
Looks from that like we aren't getting a Plan B any time soon, so I'm not sure what SWC has been referring to.

Again, we might find out more this afternoon, but my money would be on going back to the EU (again) and then voting on Plan A (again). A Parliamentary 'neverendum' as May runs the clock down.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not sure that's a starter, let alone a winner, but I have since seen reports that have refuted it.
> 
> E.g. the Beeb:
> 
> *Norman Smith, BBC assistant political editor, said anyone waiting for a Plan B would be "stuck at the bus stop for an awfully long time".
> 
> He said that reports over the weekend of the possibility of a bi-lateral agreement with the Irish Republic or a rewriting of the Good Friday Agreement had been "kiboshed" by both governments.*​
> Looks from that like we aren't getting a Plan B any time soon, so I'm not sure what SWC has been referring to.
> 
> Again, we might find out more this afternoon, but my money would be on going back to the EU (again) and then voting on Plan A (again). A Parliamentary 'neverendum' as May runs the clock down.


I hope this is right Arnie. The integrity of the GFA must be upheld.

Agree with your last sentence. May will run down the clock. If she allows us to crash out rather than revoking Article 50, history will not be kind to Theresa May and the brextremists who will be held responsible for the demise of this country.

.,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Ive pinched this from Bordies thread about ticks .


This may just be a funny meme but a lot people actually do believe the unfounded smears in the Mail and the establishment in general that Corbyn is some dangerous extremist. Across the Atlantic we see the exact same tactics to undermine progressive over there. Bernie Sanders and now the amazing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in the firing line because the status quo fears them. Like Corbyn AOC is being attacked by her own party because, like him, she is not a neoliberal.

https://medium.com/@kevin_33184/est...ezs-talk-about-progressive-taxes-5d9ad55af895


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I hate Blair but he did say one thing That May has an impossible task . perhaps he's right .


I don't like Blair either but in this case I'm sure he's right.

You might also like these articles ....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/world/europe/brexit-eu-brussels.html

*Amid Brexit Chaos, E.U. Sees a 'Catastrophic Success'*

https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...ackstop-theresa-may-how-brussels-blew-brexit/

*How Brussels blew Brexit*

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-brexit-urges-eu-and-uk-to-find-brexit-compromise/

*Merkel urges EU and UK to find Brexit compromise*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

While wrapping themselves in what are now fascist symbols, IE Union flags and having "Land of Hope and Glory" and "Rule Britannia" on repeat this is something else hard line Brexiters have overlooked.

Perhaps "Scaremongering" can be added to the list of pro Brexit soundbites?

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/f...ain-overseas-territories-190119225442121.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Ok, that’s too much of the fascist/nazi stuff for me now. These idiots are roundly condemned by a huge majority of the population and arrested if they threaten violence. They aren’t taking over Britain. If TM was a fascist dictator, her deal would have passed without question and we wouldn’t even know what it was, so it’s a stupid comparison. 

Peace out.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Ok, that's too much of the fascist/nazi stuff for me now. These idiots are roundly condemned by a huge majority of the population and arrested if they threaten violence. They aren't taking over Britain. If TM was a fascist dictator, her deal would have passed without question and we wouldn't even know what it was, so it's a stupid comparison.
> 
> Peace out.


Thank you Elles!

I was going to answer but then thought better about it as I'm afraid much of my reply would have been unrepeatable and probably got me banned.

Suffice it to say if like me he'd visited Auschwitz and seen some of the things I saw, he'd hopefully think twice about making such inflammatory and totally unwarranted remarks.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I shudder when I come onto this thread sometimes and see posts about Fascists/Nazis/Dictators and people comparing leave voters, brexiteers and their own Government to Fascists/Nazis and Dictators and this is why I have started distancing myself away from this thread and that I don't really have much to contribute at the moment. It saddens me to think that people in this fine country (and yes the UK is a country) can even consider thinking of their own fellow citizens as fascists, dictators and Nazis, it really shows the mentality they have to stoop this low because people in this fine country decided not to vote the way they want them to and voted the opposite way.

Anyway back to what I was doing....


----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.cityam.com/271380/luxury-car-maker-rolls-royce-achieves-highest-sales-growth

*Luxury car maker Rolls-Royce achieves highest sales growth in 115-year history in 2018*


----------



## KittenKong

Looks like the deranged fascist's latest idea has backfired. How she must thrive on this humiliation.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/europe-says-no-to-theresa-mays-brexit-plan-b-a4044431.html


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> http://www.cityam.com/271380/luxury-car-maker-rolls-royce-achieves-highest-sales-growth
> 
> *Luxury car maker Rolls-Royce achieves highest sales growth in 115-year history in 2018*


Well, yes, but hardly a typical company example. True prestige luxury brands like Rolls Royce will have an elite international clientel who won't balk if the price of their Roller goes up by a few hundred thousand (or more).

There may also be a side order of 'lets get the order in and paid for before Brexit just in case' as well, of course...


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Looks like the deranged fascist's latest idea has backfired. *How she must thrive on this humiliation.*
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/europe-says-no-to-theresa-mays-brexit-plan-b-a4044431.html
> 
> View attachment 389392
> [/QUOTE
> 
> ]


:Hilarious

Its obvious she has no shame.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> http://www.cityam.com/271380/luxury-car-maker-rolls-royce-achieves-highest-sales-growth
> 
> *Luxury car maker Rolls-Royce achieves highest sales growth in 115-year history in 2018*


Good news for Rolls Royce, and it may get a boost from Brexit as the pound falls, since 90% of its sales are exports, though the components also come from overseas. However, like the other car makers in the UK ...

Otvos said the BMW group had urged the government to avoid a no-deal or hard Brexit, which he admitted the company was not "immune" from.

"Every day 35 big trucks come in just for Rolls-Royce cars - they come just in time," he said. "*Any disruption would immediately halt production*."​


----------



## noushka05

God, this country. What a state. Its taken the tories 9 years to trash it.

*David Schneider*‏:

_EU Citizens - our doctors, nurses, carers, friends, family - having to pay £65 to *apply* to stay in the country they've contributed so much to, with their fate decided by the Home Office responsible for Windrush and the hostile environment.

It's truly something to be proud _of.
......................................

*The Tory #9YearChallenge *

Rough sleepers more than doubled since 2010

Child homelessness up 70% to 130,000

14.3m people now live in poverty

4.5m kids now live in poverty

597 homeless deaths a year

Food bank packages up from 40,898 in 2009/10 to 1,332,952 a year.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Well, yes, but hardly a typical company example. True prestige luxury brands like Rolls Royce will have an elite international clientel who won't balk if the price of their Roller goes up by a few hundred thousand (or more).
> 
> There may also be a side order of 'lets get the order in and paid for before Brexit just in case' as well, of course...


I think it's an exaggeration to say the price of an RR could go up by "hundreds of thousands or more"!

I stand to be corrected but I believe there's a waiting list of up to 18 months for a brand new RR.

And you don't have to be elite international clientel to own one. Not all RR owners are film stars or multi millionaires! Some are owned by hotel chains to ferry clients around and some like the one my father drove are company cars and he was far from being elite or a millionaire - just an ordinary bloke and a RR was a perk of his job!


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I shudder when I come onto this thread sometimes and see posts about Fascists/Nazis/Dictators and people comparing leave voters, brexiteers and their own Government to Fascists/Nazis and Dictators and this is why I have started distancing myself away from this thread and that I don't really have much to contribute at the moment. It saddens me to think that people in this fine country (and yes the UK is a country) can even consider thinking of their own fellow citizens as fascists, dictators and Nazis, it really shows the mentality they have to stoop this low because people in this fine country decided not to vote the way they want them to and voted the opposite way.
> 
> Anyway back to what I was doing....


----------



## noushka05

Like James, I never imagined I'd live in a country like this either. If we were still a 'fine country' we wouldn't be treating people like this.

*LBC*‏Verified account @LBC 3h3 hours ago
James O'Brien on the "settled status" process: _"We're asking people to provide their papers in order to pay for the privilege of living at home.

I never thought I'd live in a country like this. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087306713525571590
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I think it's an exaggeration to say the price of an RR could go up by "hundreds of thousands or more"!
> 
> I stand to be corrected but I believe there's a waiting list of up to 18 months for a brand new RR.
> 
> And you don't have to be elite international clientel to own one. Not all RR owners are film stars or multi millionaires! Some are owned by hotel chains to ferry clients around and some like the one my father drove are company cars and he was far from being elite or a millionaire - just an ordinary bloke and a RR was a perk of his job!


I think you're reading a bit more into things than I intended - the general point was that if people want a Roller, they'll generally tend to be the kind of client (whether private or business) who won't worry too much about the price, even if it were to take a sharpish upturn.


----------



## Arnie83

*THERESA May has confirmed that she will take the same plan back to Brussels to ask for the same changes before the same MPs vote on it the same way. *

The prime minister has confounded critics who accused her of being out of ideas with her innovative new approach of repeating her actions exactly to achieve an identical result.

A Cabinet source said: "She's issued everyone with scripts and warned us that she doesn't want any improv.

"We're all to deliver exactly the same lines to the same people as we've been doing for the last month. I questioned why and she told me I hadn't asked that first time around so I wasn't allowed to ask it this time.

"The leaders of the EU will send her back with no new concessions, then she gives the speech about how we must back her deal, then we vote against it, 'ad infinitum' it says here."

May said: "Nothing has changed, can change or will ever change. Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit."

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...-before-same-mps-vote-same-way-20190121181615

In about half an hour's time, methinks fact will mirror fiction!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *THERESA May has confirmed that she will take the same plan back to Brussels to ask for the same changes before the same MPs vote on it the same way. *
> 
> The prime minister has confounded critics who accused her of being out of ideas with her innovative new approach of repeating her actions exactly to achieve an identical result.
> 
> A Cabinet source said: "She's issued everyone with scripts and warned us that she doesn't want any improv.
> 
> "We're all to deliver exactly the same lines to the same people as we've been doing for the last month. I questioned why and she told me I hadn't asked that first time around so I wasn't allowed to ask it this time.
> 
> "The leaders of the EU will send her back with no new concessions, then she gives the speech about how we must back her deal, then we vote against it, 'ad infinitum' it says here."
> 
> May said: "Nothing has changed, can change or will ever change. Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit."
> 
> https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...-before-same-mps-vote-same-way-20190121181615
> 
> In about half an hour's time, methinks fact will mirror fiction!


Daily Mash is fake news. What they publish is fiction for a laugh.

Meanwhile back in the real world.


----------



## noushka05

*Alex Andreou*‏: _Keep telling yourselves none of catastrophe unfolding on a daily basis is anything to do with #Brexit. That it's all just "Project Fear".

Keep blaming the "remoaners".

Keep invoking the "spirit of the blitz", even as you cause the blitz.

Keep Calm and Carry On being in denial_


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Daily Mash is fake news. What they publish is fiction for a laugh.
> 
> Meanwhile back in the real world.


...you don't seriously think @Arnie83 doesn't know that, do you? 

And at the moment, truth really is stranger than fiction a lot of the time!


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on the BBC comments page:


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> ...you don't seriously think @Arnie83 doesn't know that, do you?


Well I don't know anymore as all I read is desperate regurgitated arguments from some remainers on here.


> And at the moment, truth really is stranger than fiction a lot of the time!


Well you do have a point there


----------



## Elles

One can only conclude that most of the people she spoke to about issues over her deal said that the only thing stopping them voting for it is the Irish backstop and so she's sticking to the deal. How TM will bring about change over the Irish problem I can't guess. Suggestions about changing the GF agreement, may have been what set the idiot terror group in Ireland off. 

@Arnie83 made the final comment about truth mirroring fiction, so obviously knows it was meant as a skit. A skit that seems to be actually happening.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> *One can only conclude that most of the people she spoke to about issues over her deal said that the only thing stopping them voting for it is the Irish backstop and so she's sticking to the dea*l. How TM will bring about change over the Irish problem I can't guess. Suggestions about changing the GF agreement, may have been what set the idiot terror group in Ireland off.
> 
> @Arnie83 made the final comment about truth mirroring fiction, so obviously knows it was meant as a skit. A skit that seems to be actually happening.


Most people being the DUP & the hard right nutters in her own party.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Daily Mash is fake news. What they publish is fiction for a laugh.
> 
> Meanwhile back in the real world.


Well spotted. Read the last sentence of my post.


----------



## noushka05

To keep the hard right in his party happy, he gambled with the future of our country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Despite newspaper reports this morning TM has confirmed she will not be reopening the Belfast Agreement at all and never considered doing this. Sounds to me the newspapers where spouting fake news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

TM has said there will not be a second referendum. TM is delivering a neuteral motion on the way forward.

No deal will not be taken off the table as it cannot be taken off the table. She said the only way forward is to accept a deal to avoid a no deal.

TM has said the first referendum results of 2016 must be delivered.

TM has said the scheme for EU nationals to stay in the UK with settled status will have the £65 charge removed so it is free those that have already paid the £65 will have the fee reimbursed. Meanwhile UK citizens still have to pay for settled status in other European Countries.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Despite newspaper reports this morning TM has confirmed she will not be reopening the Belfast Agreement at all and never considered doing this. Sounds to me the newspapers where spouting fake news.


Well that's the Telegraph for you !

(Spoilered for size)



Spoiler


----------



## noushka05

LIAR. How can anyone still think we'll be ok with these morally bankrupt shysters running the show?

Li_am Fox once said he could replicate our existing 40 trade deals (via EU) with countries like South Korea, Switzerland, Turkey etc by "one second after midnight" at the end of March 2019: now Whitehall estimates hardly any will be ready by then _@ft https://www.ft.com/content/c44581c2-1a75-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21 …


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Criado Perez*‏: Apparently now losing our human rights is the will of the people.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ommons-parliament-conservatives-a8734886.html


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No deal will not be taken off the* table as it cannot be taken off the ta*bl


Of course it can.


----------



## noushka05

She is behaving like a dictator.

*Jessica Simor QC*‏ @JMPSimor 12m12 minutes ago
Theresa May continues to threaten the country with no deal. She openly admits that keeping no deal on the table is not about getting a better deal from the EU27 - it's about threatening Parliament,


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Of course it can.


It is not going to be.
It cannot be removed.
If it was then it would give the option to revoke article 50 and overturn the referendum of 2016. That would destroy politics and democracy in the UK.

The only way forward is to agree a deal to avoid no deal.

Jeremy Corbyn refuses to speak with May at the ongoing meetings she is going to have so ge does not know what he is talking about.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The only way to avoid no deal is to vote for a deal. That is not a threat and not acting like a dictator it is the hard truth.


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on.
Seen on Facebook.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Well that's the Telegraph for you !
> 
> (Spoilered for size)
> 
> [/spoiler]


The Telegraph wasn't the only paper to report it. The Mirror reported it as well.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> LIAR. How can anyone still think we'll be ok with these morally bankrupt shysters running the show?
> 
> Li_am Fox once said he could replicate our existing 40 trade deals (via EU) with countries like South Korea, Switzerland, Turkey etc by "one second after midnight" at the end of March 2019: now Whitehall estimates hardly any will be ready by then _@ft https://www.ft.com/content/c44581c2-1a75-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21 …


I'm not sure whether Fox believed it at the time, because there was a dearth of understanding in the Tory Brexiteers about how Article 50 worked and what they could deliver.

It was just another fantasy promise. It will take months and years before those 40 trade deals are renegotiated.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> The Telegraph wasn't the only paper to report it. The Mirror reported it as well.


Fair enough: haven't seen the Mirror front page today.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It is not going to be.


Of course it isnt.



stockwellcat. said:


> It cannot be removed.


That is a lie.



stockwellcat. said:


> If it was then it would give the option to revoke article 50 and overturn the referendum of 2016. That would destroy politics and democracy in the UK


The tories have had 2 years to get a decent deal on the table - they have spectacularly failed. No deal was not on the ballot paper. The leave campaign and politicians have already undermined our democracy - crashing out will pretty much destroy it altogether.



stockwellcat. said:


> The only way forward is to agree a deal to avoid no deal.


No it isnt. Mays deal is terrible, no deal worse. NOT what we were promised!



stockwellcat. said:


> Jeremy Corbyn refuses to speak with May at the ongoing meetings she is going to have so ge does not know what he is talking about


He refuses to meet her until she takes no deal off the table. She met with other party leaders and offered 0 concessions. Corbyn was right not to go - it was just a publicity stunt by May.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087331262891606021


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The only way forward is to agree a deal to avoid no deal.


It clearly isn't. It's the preferred way forward for a number of people, but it is far from the only way forward.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 and @Arnie83 it is not going to happen though. The referendum result has to be honoured.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 and @Arnie83 it is not going to happen though. The referendum result has to be honoured.


Not when it looks NOTHING like we were promised. In a functioning democracy people are allowed to change their minds.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 and @Arnie83 it is not going to happen though. The referendum result has to be honoured.


Quite agree. The sooner we have one the better.


----------



## Arnie83

Incidentally, @stockwellcat. what was the Plan B you were eulogising a few days ago?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Quite agree. The sooner we have one the better.


Stop twisting things. The referendum was had in 2016 and you knew that was what I ment. You aren't going to have another one.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://theconversation.com/brexit-...my-corybn-and-theresa-may-go-from-here-110070

*Brexit brinkmanship: a game theory expert on where Jeremy Corybn and Theresa May go from here*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Incidentally, @stockwellcat. what was the Plan B you were eulogising a few days ago?


This is a start. Parties are talking to one another bar the Labour Party on the way forward. The main isssues being the back stop. This was a neuteral motion today and so are the amendments being put forward which means the amendments do not need to be implemented.

I have a feeling TM will get this through.

Article 50 will not be revoked or extended.
No deal will be an option as with like anything in life you accept it or leave with nothing in this case accept a deal or leave with no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://theconversation.com/brexit-...my-corybn-and-theresa-may-go-from-here-110070
> 
> *Brexit brinkmanship: a game theory expert on where Jeremy Corybn and Theresa May go from here*


Well Jeremy Corbyn like normal hasn't got a clue what is going on as he is not involved and refuses to get involved. :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Exactly.

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified account @CarolineLucas 27m27 minutes ago

Theresa May is right that #PeoplesVote would require extension of Article 50 - but with just 67 days until #Brexit, so would every other option.

She wasted years on a deal no one wants. This decision is too important to rush through in 2 months - she must ask EU for more time.


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise.

*Sarah Wollaston MP*‏Verified account @sarahwollaston

It's like last week's vote never happened. Plan B is Plan A.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Stop twisting things. The referendum was had in 2016 and you knew that was what I ment. You aren't going to have another one.


That might be right.

But tell me, if Parliament can only agree that they do not want a No Deal, and cannot reach a decision on an alternative way forwards - both of which are currently the case - what alternative have they got to extending A50 and asking the People what to do?

And don't just say "It isn't going to happen; it'll be no deal or they'll accept May's deal" - if they won't accept May's deal and won't countenance No Deal, what alternative do they have to a further referendum?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> That might be right.
> 
> But tell me, if Parliament can only agree that they do not want a No Deal, and cannot reach a decision on an alternative way forwards - both of which are currently the case - what alternative have they got to extending A50 and asking the People what to do?
> 
> And don't just say "It isn't going to happen; it'll be no deal or they'll accept May's deal" - if they won't accept May's deal and won't countenance No Deal, what alternative do they have to a further referendum?


There are no other options. It is a deal or no deal and always has been. MP's won't get a say in no deal as this is the reality of it all even EU Leaders have told the UK it is this deal or no deal. What part of this don't you and some other remainers don't understand?

Tell me what will happen if time runs out? That is right the UK leaves with no deal.
65 Parliament days to go to Brexit. Not much is going to be achieved within this time as there isn't any time.

The amendments being tabled tonight are neuteral motions which means the PM can ignore them as they are meaningless as it is a neuteral amendment like the motion by the PM was today.

May seems to be swaying the DUP and other MP's in her party. She only needs enough to push the deal over the line.

The PM is trying to find out what MP's want to help her get the deal through Parliament. This will be an 11th Hour 59th minute and 59th second job.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *There are no other options.* It is a deal or no deal and always has been. MP's won't get a say in no deal as this is the reality of it all even EU Leaders have told the UK it is this deal or no deal. What part of this don't you and some other remainers don't understand?
> 
> Tell me what will happen if time runs out? That is right the UK leaves with no deal.
> 65 Parliament days to go to Brexit. Not much is going to be achieved within this time as there isn't any time.
> 
> The amendments being tabled tonight are neuteral motions which means the PM can ignore them as they are meaningless as it is a neuteral amendment like the motion by the PM was today.
> 
> May seems to be swaying the DUP and other MP's in her party. She only needs enough to push the deal over the line.
> 
> The PM is trying to find out what MP's want to help her get the deal through Parliament. This will be an 11th Hour 59th minute and 59th second job.


This is why it is sometimes difficult to have a sensible discussion. There clearly, plainly and obviously ARE other options. The fact that May doesn't currently countenance them does not remove them from existence.

Time I renewed my settings again, though. So for now, bye bye.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> This is why it is sometimes difficult to have a sensible discussion. There clearly, plainly and obviously ARE other options. The fact that May doesn't currently countenance them does not remove them from existence.
> 
> Time I renewed my settings again, though. So for now, bye bye.


Everytime you don't like what you read you stick me on ignore. Sorry the truth is so obvious and you don't like it.


----------



## Elles

No fee for Eu citizens applying for settled status , any already paid will be refunded.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> No fee for Eu citizens applying for settled status , any already paid will be refunded.


Whilst UK citizens applying for settled status or permenant residency in other European Countries have to pay. Not fair really.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Everytime you don't like what you read you stick me on ignore. Sorry the truth is so obvious and you don't like it.


Hey, turnabout is fair play!  Every time you read something you don't like you yourself frequently post a bored/yawn/rolleyes meme, call it Project Fear, go back to some variant of 'we're leaving, get over it, or make some comment about desparate remainers...

Please note, I'm not saying that there isn't some drivel posted by remainers too. But to dismiss all those of us trying to have a _rational _debate over the drawbacks of Brexit (because, you know, we might want to try and make some plans to limit the impact on our personal situation as well as the wider one), as well as trying to understand why the Government (and May in particular) seems to think their obligation to listen to the People regarding anything Brexit ended forever just over two years ago, isn't particularly constructive, and it would be nice to keep this constructive.



Elles said:


> No fee for Eu citizens applying for settled status , any already paid will be refunded.


Well, that's an interesting u-turn - hope it was done apologetically, not in boastful fashion, given it was their idea in the first place if memory serves.

Is it the only siginficant change from Plan A in the whole 'Plan B' spiel? Tried to read through it but lost the will before getting far...


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> This is why it is sometimes difficult to have a sensible discussion. There clearly, plainly and obviously ARE other options. The fact that May doesn't currently countenance them does not remove them from existence.
> 
> Time I renewed my settings again, though. So for now, bye bye.


What other options are there, if you agree that the result of the referendum has to be upheld? Personally I think it's disgusting to hold a referendum, say it's binding, have people taking the time to turn out, then overturning it, because you don't like the result. If we weren't going to brexit, politicians should not have voted in favour of a referendum, or in favour of article 50. If they do go back to the people, imho, Remain is what should be off the table, not no deal. I don't expect determined Remainers to agree. Just as determined brexiteers would like their vote to be recognised and carried through.

Personally, as I've already said, I don't care if there's a second vote or not, but I can see why many Remainers are determined to get one and many brexiteers would rather not have to go through the whole thing again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the UK seems like it is going to be a very welcoming place to European Citizens as they won't have to pay to settle here. It is other European Countries that are charging to let UK citizens settle in other European Countries. I have been through the process and know how quickly it mounts up cost wise to live in another European Country.


----------



## Elles

Yep, Eu citizens (eta already here) are definitely the winners here. They have free and unfettered (practically) access to the whole of Europe and the U.K., unlike us and currently unlike British expats.


----------



## KittenKong

Spot on!


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> What other options are there, if you agree that the result of the referendum has to be upheld? Personally I think it's disgusting to hold a referendum, say it's binding, have people taking the time to turn out, then overturning it, because you don't like the result. If we weren't going to brexit, politicians should not have voted in favour of a referendum, or in favour of article 50. If they do go back to the people, imho, Remain is what should be off the table, not no deal. I don't expect determined Remainers to agree. Just as determined brexiteers would like their vote to be recognised and carried through.
> 
> Personally, as I've already said, I don't care if there's a second vote or not, but I can see why many Remainers are determined to get one and many brexiteers would rather not have to go through the whole thing again.


An interesting article which might help answer you're question .....

https://capx.co/renegotiation-is-th...il&utm_term=0_b5017135a0-89d93e5790-241883949

*Renegotiation is the EU's worst option except for all the others*


----------



## stuaz

I think its great news about the Government dropping the charge for settled status, its a small gesture anyway.

One of my colleagues at work has lived in the UK for 40 years. He moved here with his parents at the age of 2 years old from Italy. 
He doesn't know anything other than the UK and the whole "charge" for settled status really effected him. It was never about the money for him. He actually broke down in tears about being asked to complete these forms as for him personally it was like the country he loved, no longer wanted him anymore.

He is absolutely petrified that he would be "rejected" and forced to go back to Italy, a country he has no connection with. He has a house, a good job, his parents are buried here, his kids were brought up with English as there first language, he always says to me, that they are British through and through. He said to me he feels like an illegal immigrant in the UK, in his own country. Its heartbreaking.

I understand (more so than most!) about the costs and charges of moving to the UK, but I think for these EU citizens that have spent the majority of there lives here its a very hard pill to swallow to be asked to "reapply".

Just my thoughts anyway...


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the UK seems like it is going to be a very welcoming place to European Citizens as they won't have to pay to settle here. It is other European Countries that are charging to let UK citizens settle in other European Countries. I have been through the process and know how quickly it mounts up cost wise to live in another European Country.


Complete and utter bullshit!

Citizens from other EU countries still have to apply for settled status. The _only _difference is they'll no longer be subject to a £65 per person fee.

Yes, cancelling the charge is a welcomed U-Turn but the principal persists. You must he fuming those "foreigners" you seem to detest so much will be applying to stay for free.

If they don't meet Theresa's personal criteria, owning less than £50K per annum for instance, their application to remain in the UK after the transition period could be refused. They'll lose their right to live and work in the UK then be subject to deportation.



Elles said:


> Yep, Eu citizens (eta already here) are definitely the winners here. They have free and unfettered (practically) access to the whole of Europe and the U.K., unlike us and currently unlike British expats.


Again, see my reaction to SWC's comments above. Many will still be deported at the end of the transition period if their settled status application is rejected.

Currently UK immigrants are free to travel, live and work in over 30 member states to include the EEA area. That may be lost to them.

As I understand it, the Dutch government are proposing a similar settled status scheme for UK citizens living there. What's good for the goose and all that.

At least they didn't propose charges for application like May tried to do.

Yes, UK "Ex-Pats" as you call them will be the losers, they'll no longer be considered EU citizens. Citizens from other EU countries will at least retain their FoM rights outside the UK.

The only true post Brexit winners will be dual passport holders, ( eg:UK/Germany, UK/ROI etc.) who'll retain existing rights we currently enjoy until 29/03/19- as someone here most certainly will while insisting the rest of us embrace the loss of ours...


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Complete and utter bullshit!
> 
> Citizens from other EU countries still have to apply for settled status. The _only _difference is they'll no longer be subject to a £65 per person fee.
> 
> Yes, cancelling the charge is a welcomed U-Turn but the principal persists. You must he fuming those "foreigners" you seem to detest so much will be applying to stay for free.
> 
> If they don't meet Theresa's personal criteria, owning less than £50K per annum for instance, their application to remain in the UK after the transition period could be refused. They'll lose their right to live and work in the UK then be subject to deportation.
> 
> Again, see my reaction to SWC's comments above. Many will still be deported at the end of the transition period if their settled status application is rejected.
> 
> Currently UK immigrants are free to travel, live and work in over 30 member states to include the EEA area. That may be lost to them.
> 
> As I understand it, the Dutch government are proposing a similar settled status scheme for UK citizens living there. What's good for the goose and all that.
> 
> At least they didn't propose charges for application like May tried to do.
> 
> Yes, UK "Ex-Pats" as you call them will be the losers, they'll no longer be considered EU citizens. Citizens from other EU countries will at least retain their FoM rights outside the UK.
> 
> The only true post Brexit winners will be dual passport holders, ( eg:UK/Germany, UK/ROI etc.) who'll retain existing rights we currently enjoy- as someone here most certainly will as he insists we rejoice at the loss of our own rights.


Like Corbyn you really don't know what you are talking about.
European Countries already charge for any European Citizen to live in there country permanently. I have previously been through the process in Holland.
Your attitude stinks by the way and the way you talk to people on the internet and you wonder why people ignore you.


----------



## planete

Elles said:


> No fee for Eu citizens applying for settled status , any already paid will be refunded.


As an EU citizen I am mighty grateful of course...but it feels a bit like a crumb offered to offset the chaotic uncertainty of...everything else.

Edited: when I married an Englishman over 50 years ago I was given a letter stating I was now and forever a 'protected subject of the Queen'. I still have the letter. This country was friendly, fun and tolerant and I loved it. I still love it but am very sad at the hatred and divisions which have sprung up.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Complete and utter bullshit!
> 
> Citizens from other EU countries still have to apply for settled status. The _only _difference is they'll no longer be subject to a £65 per person fee.
> 
> Yes, cancelling the charge is a welcomed U-Turn but the principal persists. You must he fuming those "foreigners" you seem to detest so much will be applying to stay for free.
> 
> If they don't meet Theresa's personal criteria, owning less than £50K per annum for instance, their application to remain in the UK after the transition period could be refused. They'll lose their right to live and work in the UK then be subject to deportation.


Seems Dunning and Kruger hit the nail on the head.


----------



## cheekyscrip

planete said:


> As an EU citizen I am mighty grateful of course...but it feels a bit like a crumb offered to offset the chaotic uncertainty of...everything else.
> 
> Edited: when I married an Englishman over 50 years ago I was given a letter stating I was now and forever a 'protected subject of the Queen'. I still have the letter. This country was friendly, fun and tolerant and I loved it. I still love it but am very sad at the hatred and divisions which have sprung up.


I am Polish, married British, lived in UK and Gibraltar for over twenty years, brought up five kids, three of them mine, all of them British. 
I do feel _persona non grata _in UK.

It also affects British expats. People think - if we are not welcome in your country why then you are here?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> No fee for Eu citizens applying for settled status , any already paid will be refunded.


From someone who all this actually affects.

*Prof Tanja Bueltmann*‏:
_I welcome that @theresa_may today announced the scrapping of the fee for #SettledStatus. I welcome this because I know it will help EU citizens secure their status. However, this changes nothing about the underlying problem: the fact that we have to *APPLY* to stay in our home. 1

Mrs May made reference to eliminating the financial hurdle. That is positive, yes. But all other hurdles remain in place. Even during the small-scale trials significant numbers of EU citizens could not immediately be granted settled status because something went wrong. 2/

From records not being found to the ID check not working. Those are the real, and much more serious, issues. In addition, the UK govt is doing little to help EU citizens, and outreach is limited. We also urgently need #citizensrights to be ring-fenced for the event of no deal.

So as much as I welcome this news today because I know it will help fellow EU citizens, *don't be fooled:* it is not really all that much of an improvement in the big scheme of things because we all still have to appl_y. 4/4



Elles said:


> Yep, Eu citizens (eta already here) are definitely the winners here. They have free and unfettered (practically) access to the whole of Europe and the U.K., unlike us and currently unlike British expats.


So you admit losing freedom of movement is bad for us then?


----------



## noushka05

*the3million*‏ @the3million 17h17 hours ago
Home Secretary @sajidjavid tweeted about the Settled Status application process today. Unfortunately, he forgot to add the terms and conditions.

We fixed that for him.


----------



## noushka05

Yep.

*Alex Andreou*‏:
_The PM's profound mistake starkly exposed. In a 52-48 result, her guess as to why *SOME* people voted Leave is not a mandate. 
*SOME* of 52% is not a majority. She's implementing the wishes of various extreme minorities who coalesced around Leave. 
That's why her deal has no support. _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087394879049777152


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Personally I think it's disgusting to hold a referendum, say it's binding, have people taking the time to turn out, then overturning it, because you don't like the result.


You think it would be disgusting for the People to overturn their own vote?

If there were another referendum the government would be backing May's Brexit deal, so by whom would you be disgusted?



Elles said:


> Personally, as I've already said, I don't care if there's a second vote or not, but I can see why many Remainers are determined to get one and many brexiteers would rather not have to go through the whole thing again.


It's obvious why Remainers want another vote, but I don't think a lot of Brexiters are against it simply because it is tiresome. I suspect those who complain loudest do so simply because they are concerned that people might have changed their minds.

And there is a third constituency in this; those who want to avoid the No Deal favoured by a number of those for whom cutting as many ties with the EU is the be all and end all. A new referendum would hopefully do that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> From someone who all this actually affects.
> 
> *Prof Tanja Bueltmann*‏:
> _I welcome that @theresa_may today announced the scrapping of the fee for #SettledStatus. I welcome this because I know it will help EU citizens secure their status. However, this changes nothing about the underlying problem: the fact that we have to *APPLY* to stay in our home. 1
> 
> Mrs May made reference to eliminating the financial hurdle. That is positive, yes. But all other hurdles remain in place. Even during the small-scale trials significant numbers of EU citizens could not immediately be granted settled status because something went wrong. 2/
> 
> From records not being found to the ID check not working. Those are the real, and much more serious, issues. In addition, the UK govt is doing little to help EU citizens, and outreach is limited. We also urgently need #citizensrights to be ring-fenced for the event of no deal.
> 
> So as much as I welcome this news today because I know it will help fellow EU citizens, *don't be fooled:* it is not really all that much of an improvement in the big scheme of things because we all still have to appl_y. 4/4
> 
> So you admit losing freedom of movement is bad for us then?


UK citizens have to go through the same process in any European Country to get permenant or settled status I don't see remainers mentioning that their fellow citizens have to pay alot more than £65 (sorry that has been changed to zero) to get permenant or settled status in any other European Country after 5 years of living there. You keep going on about EU Citizens living over here without considering your fellow citizens living in say Germany, France, Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy etc. So what do you say about that as this is fact?

The UK is only implementing what works in any other European Country and has done since the EU was formed about settled/permenant status.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Watching May giving the updated statement yesterday, reminded me of the saying "Nero Fiddled while Rome burned"


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Watching May giving the updated statement yesterday, reminded me of the saying "Nero Fiddled while Rome burned"


----------



## noushka05

*Angela Rayner*‏:

_PM statement on #Brexit really is like Groundhog Day, vague promises on workers rights (which hardly anybody believes), saying she will be flexible and inclusive (which she hasn't been) and looking at the backstop again (which the EU are holding firm on) a non-entity statement._

...........


----------



## rona

planete said:


> when I married an Englishman over 50 years ago I was given a letter stating I was now and forever a 'protected subject of the Queen'


What a lovely country we were before joining the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

planete said: ↑
_when I married an Englishman over 50 years ago I was given a letter stating I was now and forever a 'protected subject of the Queen'_



rona said:


> What a lovely country we were before joining the EU.


You have really confused me now


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yep, Eu citizens (eta already here) are definitely the winners here. They have free and unfettered (practically) access to the whole of Europe and the U.K., unlike us and currently unlike British expats.


I'm a British citizen who's lived overseas for over 45 year of which the past 12 years have been spent in Hungary. One of my considerations for moving was because living in South Africa, my British State Pension was frozen at the date I received it some 19 years ago. In common with some 550 000 other expats had I stayed in South Africa, despite having contributed, my pension would still be the princely sum of £45 something a week, instead of starting at £70 something which I would have got had I lived in the UK or the EU, plus of course the annual increases.

https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2018/07/24/govt-has-no-plans-to-address-expats-frozen-pensions/

I would point out that this is the fault of successive governments refusal to give their citizens the state pensions they've worked and paid for, and now with Brexit, any collateral damage will undoubtedly cause great hardship to those ex pats affected by this ruling. But who gives a stuff, it seems to me that the welfare of EU citizens living in the UK is more important to some than the welfare of their own elderly UK citizens living in the EU?

As a 79 year old woman, living alone in a tiny Hungarian village with 2 dogs and a cat to be perfectly honest I don't know what the hell is going on and what the future holds for expats like me. Fortunately I'm in good health and capable of looking after myself and my 4 legged friends without any problem ........ at present. There is no way I could simply pack up and leave for the UK.

Firstly, it's virtually impossible to sell a house over here and I'm not prepared to abandon mine.

Secondly, my son and family live on a yacht and although there is room aboard for me, getting on and off the yacht would be a problem and I couldn't have my dogs and cat. In any case, much as I love my family I don't want to live with them and I'm sure they feel the same way about me!

Thirdly, what happens to the loves of my life - my dogs and cat? The only way anyone will part us is over my dead body!

And finally, there is no way I could afford to live in the UK because my income wouldn't even pay the rent for a room in a shared house!

In some respects I feel I'm fortunate in having chosen Hungary because unlike France or Spain, to live here you need a residence permit which doesn't have a time limit. (which why I can't understand all the hysteria about EU citizens having to go through a similar process in the UK). I also have a Hungarian NHI number, ID, driving licence and OAP card the same as all Hungarian citizens. The consensus of opinion here among expats and endorsed by the resident British Ambassador is to get all necessary paperwork done before the 29 th March.

I personally feel that as there are so few British expats living here permanently - and strangely enough thanks to the legacy of Soviet era bureaucracy which although highly annoying is nevertheless thorough - nothing much will alter. I also wonder how if, you already live in Europe and have a valid EU ID, and say like I sometimes have to do, you drive the 25 miles in an EU registered car, into a neighbouring country to collect your family from the airport, how is anyone going to know you're not a member of the EU as there are no borders between EU countries?????? Whatever the outcome I'm planning to travel to other EU countries using my Hungarian ID just like every other Hungarian citizen!

I don't blame TM for the uncertainty surrounding expats because to be fair our fate lies entirely in the hands of the EU country in which we live. And contrary to what seems to be the opinion, I'm not bitter because of the 15 year rule, I didn't have a vote in the referendum, In fact the last time I voted was for Mandela and the ANC!

The one thing I can't forgive and the people I do blame are the ones - and I can think of a couple on this thread - who in their fanatical fervour to prove they're right and those who voted to leave the EU are wrong - and fuelled to fever pitch by quotes from the bible according to St Twitter, (whose words are apparently gospel), have reduced the whole Brexit debate, (not only on this thread) to a highly unpleasant, slanging match.

What disgusts me most are the depths to which some remainers have stooped to prove their point particularly resurrecting the atrocities of the past and likening and accusing the UK of being the same and most unforgivable of all, doing in front of the whole world! Does it never occur to their pea sized brains that by being so hell bent on slagging off Britain and anything British, they're playing right into Putin's hands and have done more to destroy the UK than he and his cronies could ever hope to achieve.

Well done, I hope you're all proud of yourselves!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> You think it would be disgusting for the People to overturn their own vote?
> 
> If there were another referendum the government would be backing May's Brexit deal, so by whom would you be disgusted?
> 
> It's obvious why Remainers want another vote, but I don't think a lot of Brexiters are against it simply because it is tiresome. I suspect those who complain loudest do so simply because they are concerned that people might have changed their minds.
> 
> And there is a third constituency in this; those who want to avoid the No Deal favoured by a number of those for whom cutting as many ties with the EU is the be all and end all. A new referendum would hopefully do that.


The problem with many Brexiters is their fairytales and illusions included their belief the entire UK would join them behind their glorious flag in mass celebration of glorified nationalism.

Many don't appear to have the mentality to realise not everyone shares that point of view which frustrates them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The problem with many Brexiters is their fairytales and illusions included their belief the entire UK would join them behind their glorious flag in mass celebration of glorified nationalism.
> 
> Many don't appear to have the mentality to realise not everyone shares that point of view which frustrates them.


Seriously. What aload of tosh.
All you do is insult leave voters and brexiteers and compare them to dictators, nazis etc and you expect referring someone to these is going to win them over? It is going to put their backs up.

I am disagreeing with what you have just posted as many remainers mentalities are worse.


----------



## KittenKong

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/bre...?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The problem with many Brexiters is their fairytales and illusions included their belief the entire UK would join them behind their glorious flag in mass celebration of glorified nationalism.
> 
> Many don't appear to have the mentality to realise not everyone shares that point of view which frustrates them.


I think what we all need to remember is that one person's problem is another's reason, and that neither point of view is categorically right or wrong.

It is certainly important, I think, to get the facts straight, because otherwise how can we hope to make sensible decisions? But once we are in the realm of opinions and feelings, the strength of one's conviction doesn't invalidate the views of others.


----------



## Magyarmum

*"Britons in Europe are EU citizens and not just British expats, and we have always argued and continue to argue that the EU has a duty to protect their rights directly on that basis and not through a degrading and humiliating process of horse-trading in the context of the withdrawal deal"

Roger Casale, New Europeans*


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The problem with many Brexiters is their fairytales and illusions included their belief the entire UK would join them behind their glorious flag in mass celebration of glorified nationalism.
> 
> Many don't appear to have the mentality to realise not everyone shares that point of view which frustrates them.


Just as many remainers don't have the mentality to realise that not everyone shares your point of view (thank God!) that the UK is fast becoming a dictatorship and before long the British Isles will be reduced to being another North Korea!

Definitely a candidate for Dunning and Kruger @Satori


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Second referendum to ask 'Do you want everything to be brilliant?'*
22nd January 2019








*A SECOND referendum will ask voters if they want everything to be brilliant from now on or if they are against that.*

The referendum has been agreed by all major parties because a win for the 'brilliant' vote will be a win for them, as that is exactly what they have been arguing for all along.

A spokesman for the Electoral Commission said: "It's what the first referendum asked but this just makes it explicit.

"The Tories are confident that they'll win, which would mean either May's Brexit deal, a no-deal Brexit or no Brexit whatsoever, each of which they'll have an overwhelming mandate for.

"Whereas Labour insist that a landside 'brilliant' vote would immediately install Corbyn in Number 10 with a 450 majority because a brilliant future can only be achieved under his firm-but-fair-but-fuzzy hand.

"Even the Lib Dems are backing it. Pathetic really."

Norman Steele, from Hartlepool, said: "And once we vote that everything should be brilliant, it will be. Because that's the will of the people."


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 389517


Not sure the smiley is going to save you!


----------



## Arnie83

From The Times today ...

Up to 40 members of the government will resign next week if Conservative MPs are banned from voting for a plan to stop a no-deal Brexit, No 10 has been told.​
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dozens-of-ministers-ready-to-quit-over-brexit-xq6rh80sj

Momentum gathering to stop the extreme option.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> You think it would be disgusting for the People to overturn their own vote?
> 
> .


Read again what you quoted.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Read again what you quoted.


Okay. Done that! 

My point is that the government / Parliament aren't going to overturn anything. The only way we don't leave the EU is if the People vote not to do so.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Love reading your interesting personal stories, Magyarmum. Amazing lady.


----------



## Jesthar

Yeah, I know we all hate polls, but I thought this one was interesting:


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God, and only 17...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1887898754553863&id=593116884032063


----------



## KittenKong

Ever get the feeling you've been had?

















The UK won't be part of that trade deal of course.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Ever get the feeling you've been had?
> 
> View attachment 389654
> View attachment 389655
> 
> 
> The UK won't be part of that trade deal of course.


Yep he's moved 

https://www.beeswaxdyson.com/

He moved business into Singapore in 2003 because of the growing market there. He will still have many interests here, employs about 4.000 people and that shouldn't change, also, unlike many others, he will continue to pay UK tax on his billions


----------



## noushka05

Interesting thread - especially for people who voted leave for 'control of our own laws'. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087360379691380736.html

*Brace for mega thread on "ALL THEM RULES INNIT"*

There is a type of of brexiter who is motivated not by xenophobia, or Empire nostalgia, or buccaneering trade fantasies, but instead by "all them EU rules". Sadly they can never name a single one.

So I have done some research...

The commons library looked at how many UK laws were influenced by EU laws. http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP10-62/RP10-62.pdf … 4,514 out of 34,105. And out of the EU laws that influenced the 4,514 ....Vote Leave discovered 72 that were forced on us against our will. 72! https://gallery.mailchimp.com/1026e6b00f73284a7e46eb046/files/20151009_UK_influence.pdf#page=5 … ...










So... what inequities were forced upon us, what degradation, what humiliations for a proud island nation?
Let's have a little look shall we?
I have put a link to each law we voted "no" to... and my own TLDR, if you don't fancy wading through the legalese...

*(1/72)* 29/03/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31996L0021 …
EU: Food labels should say if Aspartine is present.

UK: Nonsense. Bloody red tape!

(Linked to cancer, headaches and seizures, even Pepsi USA stopped using it by 2015)

*(2/72)* 29/04/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:01996L0022-20081218&from=IT …

EU: Ban on livestock growth-boosters with hormonal, thyrostatic or beta-agonist effects (carcinogenic residue in meat).
UK: Aw come on - a little bit of cancer never hurt no-one.

*(3/72) *03/06/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31996L0035&from=EN …

EU: Safety advisers dealing with transport of dangerous goods on public roads etc must be properly trained and regulated.
UK: Bleedin elf'n'safety gorn mad. Wassamatta wiv a bit a toxic spillage across a playground?

*(4/72*) 27/06/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A31996R1168 …

EU: we need some conservation measures to preserve North Atlantic fish stocks.
UK: Ah Phooey. There's plenty o' fish in the sea. We've even registered on the website.

*(5/72*) 22/07/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31996L0070 …

EU: additives to mineral water must be safe and labels must be honest (eg "spring water" has to come from an actual spring)
UK: This will kill our sales of Dell-boy Trotter's "Peckham Spring Water

*(6/72*) 24/09/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31996L0071&rid=2 …

EU: posted workers must be given the same pay and conditions as local workers.
UK: You're kidding! The whole POINT of posted workers is to undercut the locals and undermine their employment rights

*(7/72)* 09/12/1996 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A31996D0715 …

EU: lets have a consistent approach to data collection on goods traded between member states?
UK: Hmm. That buggers up our carousel fraud schemes, somewhat

*(8/72)* 17/03/1997 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:31997L0012 …

EU: Lets tighten up on livestock health checks, paperwork and traceability.
UK: God, you're not still pissed about that mad cow thing? IT'S SORTED!
Twust us - we's Bwitish.

( Soon after: 10M animals slaughtered during foot and mouth)

*(9 & 10/72*) 22/04/1997 & 26/06/1997 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=OJ:L:1997:106:TOC …

EU: We still need to protect those fish stocks.
UK: Aww. Cant we just keep fishin'? There are so few left, we want to catch as many as we can before they are ALL gone

*(11/72*) 22/07/97 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:01997R1554-19970805 …

EU: OK folks: lets have a single set of rules about drying, powdering and labelling hops - instead of everyone making it up as they go along.
UK: We LIKE making it up as we go along. (Hopping mad now)

*12/72)* 20/10/1997 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31997R2087&from=en …

EU: Don't add tartaric acid to wine. And here's how tariffs on grapejuice from 3rd countries should be calculated.
UK: We LIKE adding dodgy things to wine.

And the French, Spanish and Italian winemakers should do what WE say!

*(13/72)* 11/12/1997 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31997R2087&from=en …

EU: firms from outside the
EU may carry passengers between destinations in the EU (cabbotage) without needing a registered office in the EU.
UK (1997): Not happy.
UK (2021): Splendid idea.

*(14/72*) 16/12/1997 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31997R2536 …
EU: Lamb and sheep meat to be classified in a consistent way as soon as possible after slaughter.
UK: That violates the English common law principle: "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb"

*(15/72) *16/02/1998 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31998R0411 …

EU: Trucks for livestock journeys over 8 hours must have bedding, feed, water, ventilation, partitions and access for inspectors.
UK: Why spend all that money? Innit all just meat on the plate at the end of the day?

*(16/72)* 18/05/1998 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A31998R1048 …

EU: This is a Gas turbine/nomenclature/tariff/temporary partial thingy-me-wotsit.
UK: If that's not worth dying in a ditch for, I don't know what is.

*(17/72)* 19/06/2000 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32000R1363&from=EN …

EU: We are going to intervene in the sugar market to create price stability and protect farm incomes.
UK: We don't like it.

(Be really cool if you reformed this system in, ooh say, 2006...)

*(18/72)* 04/12/2000 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32000R2699&from=EN …

EU: These are our proposed subsidies for fruit and veg growers.
UK: We don't like fruit and veg… can you subsidise laxitives and Anusol instead?

*(19/72)* 29/01/2001 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/GA/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32001R0216 …

EU: Let's increase the tonnage of bananas we take from ACP countries at the lower tariff rates?
UK: NEVER!

You may take our blue passports, but you will never get your hands on our BANANANANANANANAS

*(20/72)* 19/12/2001 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:51999PC0744 …

EU: After the mad cow thing and the dioxin thing... maybe we should tighten up on compound feed and how it is labelled?

UK: Knee-jerk regulation is the wrong mooooohve.

*(21/72)* 27/06/2002 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32002R1177 …

EU: South Korean State Aid for shipyards is undercutting our yards on LNG tankers; time for countermeasures.
UK: We couldn't care less about Danish shipyards;

Thatcher destroyed all of the UK's about twenty years ago

*(22/72)* 27/02/2003 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=COM:2001:0283:FIN …

EU: we must ban the advertising of tobacco products in printed media, radio, TV, events sponsorship etc.
UK: just hang on a mo' - there's good money in those deathsticks, you know.

*(23/72)* 03/06/2003 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32003D1152 …
EU: we must set up an EU-wide computer system to combat evasion of excise duty on booze etc.

UK: but we like evading taxes

*(24 & 25 /72)* 22/07/2003 http://assets.panda.org/downloads/gmosadangertosustainableagriculture.pdf …

EU: Proper labelling of food that uses genetically modified ingredients - so consumers can decide not to buy them if they are worried.
UK: Bugger consumers! What they don't know won't harm 'em"

*(26/72*) 26/01/20014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML …

EU: airlines should compensate passengers for delayed or cancelled flights.
UK: we don't support this proposal because ...um...because...we are just utter, utter bastards.

(*27/72*) 28/02/2005 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32005R0374 …

EU: In 2000 we dropped sugar tariffs for some Balkans countries and we want to row that back a bit now.
UK: NO! (We're sweet enough...)

*28/72)* 07/05/2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Refugee_Fund …

EU: Greece Italy and Spain are bearing disproportionate costs housing asylum seekers - everyone should chip in to help them?
UK: Sod the Greeks! They shouldnt have put their country so close to the Middle East.

*(29/72)* 07/05/2007 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52011DC0858 …

EU: OK can you chip in to funding a programme to help asylum seekers return home?
UK: You 'avin a giraffe, mate?

*(30/72)* 23/05/2007 Solidarity and management of migration flows
EU: Another whip-round needed; to help member States in receiving, and in
bearing the consequences of receiving, refugees and displaced persons.

UK: Why should WE help? A friend in need… can sod off

*(31/72)* 30/05/2007 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32007R0715 …

EU: Common standard for emissions testing and what maintenance information vehicle manufacturers should provide.
UK: Aw - do we have to? I mean...air polution only kills 36,000 in the UK each year. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/lsm/schools/population-health-and-environmental-sciences/newsrecords/air-pollution-could-cause-36000-deaths-a-year-in-the-uk.aspx …

*(32/72)* 24/09/2009https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32009R1107

EU: no pesticides that are; carcinogenic, mutagenic, toxic to reproduction, sensitising chemicals, very toxic, explosive or corrosive.
UK: EU spoil sports!

*(33/72)* 14/12/2010 https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/f67f2a21-c752-11e1-b84a-01aa75ed71a1/language-en …

EU: we need rule changes to allow us to do development type stuff with middle-income countries (eg China, India & various states that don't meet the OECD criteria for "Official Development Assistance")
UK "no" 1st reading & "Yes" 2nd

*(34/72*) 17/05/2011 https://oeilm.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil-mobile/summary/1148778?t=d&l=en …

EU: There's a potential period of legal limbo between the expiry of current fisheries legal framework and start of the next one. We need a temp. extension to cover the gap.
UK: ("Fish? FISH? - 'ad their chips, their chips, hawhawhaw!")

*(35/72)* 12/09/2011 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/LSU/?uri=CELEX%3A32011R1077 …

EU: Lets create a new agency, eu-LISA, to ensure 24/7 resilience in the IT systems that keep our borders safe (asylum database, visa database, security, fingerprints, criminals).
UK: We LIKE being flooded with crim's and asylum seekers

*(36/72*) 27/10/2011 Apparently we voted against the EU budget for 2012. Except this https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-16201-2011-INIT/en/pdf … says we voted FOR. Whatevs.

*(37/72)* 30/11/2011 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/236119/8232.pdf …
EU: We need a 5% increase in budget.
UK (and NL): No not a penny more!
EU: OK. How about no real terms increase, just inflationary uplift?
UK: Still not happy!
EU: Soz.

*(38/72)* 14/02/2012 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&reference=A7-2012-0032&language=EN …
EU: We've funded food banks since 1987. 13M people rely on them. Then SOMEONE blocked our budget increase last year. Can't we keep the funding going for another 12 months?
UK: NO! Let the plebs starve; the very sight of them affronts us

*(39/72*) 09/03/2012 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32013D0258 …
EU: The European Refugee Fund needs more dosh, to help those countries that are bearing the brunt.
UK: Having taken moral and ethical advice from Voldemort, Sauron and Satan himself, our view is: TOUGH SHIT!

*(40/72)* 26/07/2012 EU: We need more cash. https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-uk-and-the-eu-budget-the-facts/ …
EU: Our budget was 1.2% of members' total GDP 10 years ago - now it's 1%. Come on, members? (your national budgets have all INCREASED as a %ge of GDP).
UK: Not a penny. & everything is your fault, & we hate you.

*(41/72) *08/10/2012 http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=EN&f=ST%2010090%202012%20REV%202 …
EU: The Maritime Safety Agency needs re-organising & more muscle to punish oil spills from ships and oil rigs.
UK: (Gulp! Probs OUR oil rigs.) WE OPPOSE!

*(42/72)* 21/11/2012 EU: We need a bit more money - really.
UK: We don't care. This is an opportunity to grandstand for our euroskeptic electorate over really tiny amounts of money.

(*43/72*) 10/12/2012 EU: We need about £0.4Bn for 2012 (Or 4 DUP MP's, if you prefer)
UK: We don't care. This is ANOTHER opportunity to grandstand for our euroskeptic electorate over really tiny amounts of money.

*44/72)* 12/12/2012 EU: OK we have trimmed it by about 10%.
UK. Still don't care!

(*45/72)* 26/02/2013 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32013R0228 …
EU: Canary Islands, Azores, Madeira etc are struggling due to their remoteness. Lets help them?
UK: Tough titty - their fault for being so remote. Can't they be tax havens like Cayman and BVI?

(*46 & 47/72 )* 24/06/2013 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32013R0575 …
EU: We need prudential supervision of credit institutions and investment firms so that stuff like Lehman's and the 2008 crash don't happen again. UK: Oh don't worry. If the bankers go bust again, taxpayers will bail em out.

*(48&49)* UK budget grandstanding on tiny amounts.

*(50/72*) 10/10/2013 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32013R1023 …
EU: we want to make some changes to the employment contract for EU staff.
UK: they're your staff - do what you wan….Wait! We oppose! (Dunno why….)
*
(51,52,53*) More pointless budget grandstanding

(*54/72)* 12/02/2014 https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6418-2014-INIT/en/pdf …
EU: Fund our Hercule III programme to combat irregularities, fraud and corruption affecting the EU budget.
UK: Er…anti-fraud you say…hmm... WE OPPOSE! (Soz.. just got to pop out and make a call…)

see also: https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/policy/hercule_en

*(55/7*2) 11/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=celex:32014R0223 …
EU: Let's provide funds for the most deprived - these people are really suffering.
UK: Hey! We have been deliberately CAUSING deprivation with our austerity programme - now you want to undo all that work! WTF?

*(56/72)* 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32014R0236 …
EU: we need to agree rules for funding stuff like development, democracy, human rights, European Neighbourhood.
UK: every one of those things is anathema to us

*(57/72*) 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32014R0230 …
EU: We want to establish an instrument to fund stability and peace in countries.
UK: Stability and peace?! Wipe me arse with them.

*(58/72)* 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32014R0235 …
EU: Lets establish a financing instrument for the promotion of democracy and human rights around the world.
UK: Sod off! Lets establish an instrument to wipe out democracy and human rights in the UK.
Call it "Brexit"

*59/72)* 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.077.01.0077.01.ENG …
EU: Lets establish an instrument for co-operation with 3rd countries.
UK: Co-operate on THIS, mofo!

*(60/72*) 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32014R0233 …
EU: Lets establish an instrument for development cooperation.
UK: Development. Cooperation. Aid. These words make our skin burn.

*61/72*) 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32014R0232 …
EU: Measures to reduce poverty, promote development, trade, education and science in countries that border the EU?
UK: SOD DEVELOPMENT! SOD TRADE! SOD EDUCATION, SOD SCIENCE AND SOD ALLEVIATING SODDING POVERTY!

*62/72*) 12/03/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32014R0231 …
EU: Help for pre-accession countries to get ready for joining the EU.
UK: SOD THE SODDING PRE-ACCESSION COUNTRIES! SOD 'EM TO HELL AND BACK!!

*(63/72)* 16/04/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32014L0054 …
EU: Measures to give FOM workers protection from exploitation.
UK: But we WANT to exploit FOM workers - it helps keep our UK-born workers under the thumb

*(64/72)* 16/04/2014 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32014R0423 …
EU: Boring bit of housekeeping re staff pensions, let's hope no eejit takes this as an opportunity for pointless, immature, grandstanding.
UK: Someone mention my name

*(65/72*) 16/04/2014 eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/…
EU: Same again re staff pensions, let's hope that eejit feels he's made his point already.
UK: Do you ever get that feeling of déjà vu?

*(66 & 67 /72)* 30/09/2014 eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/…
EU: Now (Cameron) no political donations from dodgy Russians, Criminals or organised bicycle-seat sniffers. Farage? stop spunking your expense account on "other stuff"!
UK: Hey! political corruption is an UK tradition, immemorial.

*(68/72*) 13/10/2014 eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2014/1…
EU: Enhanced labelling for EU Agricultural products; not just nutritional info, but also food safety, traceability, authenticity, health, animal welfare, environment, sustainability.
UK: Less information consumers get, happier we'll be.

*(69/72)* More budget grandstanding for the Mail readers.

*(70/72)* 05/03/2015 eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/…
EU: These measures will protect National Statistical Authorities from interference by their National Governments.
UK: You think? Hahaha - one day we will put Rory Stewart in charge.

*(71/72)* 05/03/2015 eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/…
EU: Some rules about type approval of e-Call systems (they automatically call 999 in a car crash)
UK: More Euro-bollocks. Wouldn't have saved Diana, hawhawhaw.

*(72/72*) 23/06/2015 eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/…
EU: The CJEU needs more judges to deal with a big backlog of cases.
UK: But we LIKE cases to wait ages. It means only the wealthy - who can afford to wait - can get justice.

FINISHED!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Yep he's moved
> 
> https://www.beeswaxdyson.com/
> 
> He moved business into Singapore in 2003 because of the growing market there. He will still have many interests here, employs about 4.000 people and that shouldn't change, also, unlike many others, he will continue to pay UK tax on his billions


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Yeah, I know we all hate polls, but I thought this one was interesting:
> 
> View attachment 389621


I know that 63% wanting the UK to leave the EU without a deal doesn't include you or any other remainer on this thread. There was another poll done by Sky News the other day saying that 56% of people don't want a second rederendum/peoples vote. I don't know why these two polls come as a shock to you?


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> I know that 63% wanting the UK to leave the EU without a deal doesn't include you or any other remainer on this thread. There was another poll done by Sky News the other day saying that 53% of people don't want a second rederendum/peoples vote. I don't know why these two polls come as a shock to you?


Do you know how many people took part in that poll?

https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019

Just over 1000 people


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46965780


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The one thing I can't forgive and the people I do blame are the ones - and I can think of a couple on this thread - who in their fanatical fervour to prove they're right and those who voted to leave the EU are wrong - and fuelled to fever pitch by quotes from the bible according to St Twitter, (whose words are apparently gospel), have reduced the whole Brexit debate, (not only on this thread) to a highly unpleasant, slanging match


There are experts & trustworthy public figures, NGOs & MPs all in one place on twitter - so twitter can be an excellent source of factual information. I'm not getting involved in slanging matches, I'm sticking to addressing the argument. Which is what debating should be about.



Magyarmum said:


> What disgusts me most are the depths to which some remainers have stooped to prove their point particularly resurrecting the atrocities of the past and likening and accusing the UK of being the same and most unforgivable of all, doing in front of the whole world! Does it never occur to their pea sized brains that by being so hell bent on slagging off Britain and anything British, they're playing right into Putin's hands and have done more to destroy the UK than he and his cronies could ever hope to achiev


I took your last jibe at me as banter as the link you posted about the things which made you proud to be British seemed so absurd. But now reading this I'm not so sure.

Putin supports brexit because it weakens the EU, he interfered in our democracy as he did in the USAs Presidential elections. The Kremlin are engaged in disinformation warfare to destabilise democracies like ours.

Who benefits from a weaker, divided EU?

Leaving the EU is playing right into Putins hands MM. You can't really talk a country down, you know?. And I am deeply ashamed of my country at the moment. The hostile environment this government has created, the poverty, homelessness epidemic, the badger cull, selling arms to despotic regimes, Yemen, the brexit shambles - we are regressing and anyone who cant see that doesn't want to.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> Do you know how many people took part in that poll?
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019
> 
> Just over 1000 people


Corrected the amount as it was 56% not 53%.
I didn't see how many took part. Not really interested to be honest. Just rather the Government and MP's stopped faffing around and got on with it. It is obvious the UK isn't going to get a deal.

As my dad said when he was here the Common Market/EC/EEC never really wanted the UK to join and that was why the UK was left half in and half out if they really wanted the UK to join the UK would have been fully in. He also thinks if we are to leave the EU we should leave with no half in half out deal. The problem with Parliament is they are scared of making decisions for the first time in 40 odd years like trad9e deals etc as they have had others do it for them in Brussels.

Time is running out folks and the UK is getting closer to crashing out. The EU have made it clear they will not change the deal on the table and some MP's want to try and change it.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> As my dad said when he was here the Common Market/EC/EEC never really wanted the UK to join and that was why the UK was left half in and half out if they really wanted the UK to join the UK would have been fully in. He also thinks if we are to leave the EU we should leave with no half in half out deal. The problem with Parliament is they are scared of making decisions for the first time in 40 odd years like trad9e deals etc as they have had others do it for them in Brussels.
> 
> Time is running out folks and the UK is getting closer to crashing out. The EU have made it clear they will not change the deal on the table and some MP's want to try and change it.


I agree with your dad


----------



## noushka05

They're taking us for fools

*David Schneider*‏:
*BREXITERS UPDATE:*

Rees Mogg: "Open funds in Ireland because Brexit"

Redwood: "Don't invest in UK because Brexit"

Lawson: "I want French residency because Brexit"

Farage: "German passports for my kids because Brexit"

Dyson: "Moving company to Singapore"

...........................................................


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/bre...?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp
> 
> View attachment 389495
> View attachment 389496


"Because of Dutch law, the 77-year-old was unable to take British citizenship without giving up her Dutch passport"

So it was HER choice, because of a DUTCH law.

Or am I reading that wrong?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> "Because of Dutch law, the 77-year-old was unable to take British citizenship without giving up her Dutch passport"
> 
> So it was HER choice, because of a DUTCH law.
> 
> Or am I reading that wrong?


If it wasn't for Brexit she wouldn't have to do this.

That's my point.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> If it wasn't for Brexit she wouldn't have to do this.
> 
> That's my point.


I'll start a hardship fund for her as she only has iPhones and iPads that won't work on the system shall I?

She could have become a citizen 50 years ago but chose not to.

I'm not sure that you'll get people who voted leave to be concerned too much over that sort of thing.

As Elles says, the EU citizens here are the ones who currently have it best.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Corrected the amount as it was 56% not 53%.
> I didn't see how many took part. Not really interested to be honest. Just rather the Government and MP's stopped faffing around and got on with it. It is obvious the UK isn't going to get a deal.
> 
> As my dad said when he was here the Common Market/EC/EEC never really wanted the UK to join and that was why the UK was left half in and half out if they really wanted the UK to join the UK would have been fully in. He also thinks if we are to leave the EU we should leave with no half in half out deal. The problem with Parliament is they are scared of making decisions for the first time in 40 odd years like trad9e deals etc as they have had others do it for them in Brussels.
> 
> Time is running out folks and the UK is getting closer to crashing out. The EU have made it clear they will not change the deal on the table and some MP's want to try and change it.


Your dad is quite right. De Gaulle didn't want the UK to join the Common Market and vetoed the UK's application twice, The first time in 1963 and again in 1967.

A few articles which you might find interesting!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ck-britain-entry-common-market-de-gaulle-1963

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1967/nov/28/eu.france

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42165383


----------



## Elles

https://www.government.nl/topics/br...-dutch-and-british.-how-will-brexit-affect-me

It says you can reapply every 9 years to keep the dual nationality after Brexit.

The Dutch are also changing their rules on dual nationality in 2 stages, the first in the Spring of this year.


----------



## noushka05

HAHAA

Touche!
*Tim Walker*‏: Need a moral vacuum? Get a Dyson

Yep.

*Tim Walker*‏: _People are becoming legitimately angry about the sheer hypocrisy of the Brexiteers.

We see them for what they are._

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Do you know how many people took part in that poll?
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019
> 
> *Just over 1000 people *


I'm sure I've put this here before, so apologies if I'm repeating it.

For a *Confidence Level of 95% *(you've got a 19/20 chance of getting it "right")

And with a *Confidence Interval of +/- 3%* ("right" meaning within 3% of the actual answer)

And a *population of 66,000,000* (c. UK)

You need a *sample size of 1067*.

Here's a link for anyone who wants to look at the statistical science and a calculator to play with.

https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm


----------



## noushka05

Taking back control.

*Doug Parr*‏ : US agribusiness press for post-#brexit trade deal to force higher pesticide residues, GM crops, hormone-treated beef into UK market.


*America's farming and car giants demand Trump administration bargain down UK standards for post-Brexit trade deal*

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/america...down-uk-standards-for-post-brexit-trade-deal/

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/america...down-uk-standards-for-post-brexit-trade-deal/


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I'll start a hardship fund for her as she only has iPhones and iPads that won't work on the system shall I?
> 
> She could have become a citizen 50 years ago but chose not to.
> 
> I'm not sure that you'll get people who voted leave to be concerned too much over that sort of thing.
> 
> As Elles says, the EU citizens here are the ones who currently have it best.


Perhaps I ought to be jealous of the fact she'll still have FoM rights but no longer in the UK! Theresa May has caused enough divisions already.

Of course leavers don't give a toss, they voted to send them back through taking jobs from the "British" and clogging up the NHS didn't they?


----------



## Arnie83

*Sony to move Europe headquarters to avoid Brexit disruption*

Sony will move its European headquarters from the UK to the Netherlands to avoid disruptions caused by Brexit.

The company said the move would help it avoid customs issues tied to Britain's exit from the EU, according to AFP.

Despite the move, Sony won't shift personnel and operations from the existing UK operations.​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46968720

This is what I expect from Brexit; not a massive rush away from the UK - hence the last sentence above - but a slow steady drip-drip decline, often starting with HQs and senior management, but inevitably followed over time by new jobs and then existing ones, unless the UK can offer lower production costs.


----------



## noushka05

This makes me so ashamed,

*the3million*‏ @the3million
*Watch* Marguerite Skerret, the 96 year old French lady, forced to re-apply to stay in the UK after decades living here. 
The Govt might label the Settled Status application "simple & straightforward" but there will be thousands of EU citizens like Marguerite who will struggle.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087626791043457024
.....


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...ritish nationals living and working across EU

*Scots MEP Alyn Smith calls for 'certainty' for British nationals living and working across EU*

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...iament-urged-honour-commitment-eu-green-card’

*European Parliament urged to honour commitment to EU 'Green Card'
*


----------



## noushka05

Boom!

*Alex Andreou*‏:
_If people don't get that opposing a unilateral discriminatory penalty is not about the AMOUNT, their attachment to decency and principles is pretty flimsy. They might be the sort of people who lie in public, betray a friend for a scoop and resent the disabled. @IsabelOakeshott_


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/scots-mep-alyn-smith-calls-'certainty'-british-nationals-living-and-working-across-eu?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily RSS Dailyroundup 2&utm_content=Daily RSS Dailyroundup 2+CID_209fefd9970e40ab7dcdc0f8105f6ce4&utm_source=Email newsletters&utm_term=Scots MEP Alyn Smith calls for certainty for British nationals living and working across EU
> 
> *Scots MEP Alyn Smith calls for 'certainty' for British nationals living and working across EU*
> 
> https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/european-parliament-urged-honour-commitment-eu-green-card'
> 
> *European Parliament urged to honour commitment to EU 'Green Card'*


I don't see any remainers on this thread worring about their fellow citizens living in other European Countries who are facing more uncertainty than European Citizens from other European Countries living in the UK.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps I ought to be jealous of the fact she'll still have FoM rights but no longer in the UK! Theresa May has caused enough divisions already.
> 
> Of course leavers don't give a toss, they voted to send them back through taking jobs from the "British" and clogging up the NHS didn't they?


How many visits a year do you take to other EU countries?

It must be an awful lot if you feel your FOM is going to be curtailed!


----------



## noushka05

Look at this amazing & moving letter from our friends in Germany.


----------



## noushka05

_
"Settled status for EU nationals makes me feel I don't belong here "Now, I can't help feeling like a second class citizen on a daily basis and I am angry, especially this week as applications for settled status have opened"_

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news-opinion/settled-status-eu-nationals-makes-15712921


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> I know that 63% wanting the UK to leave the EU without a deal doesn't include you or any other remainer on this thread. There was another poll done by Sky News the other day saying that 56% of people don't want a second rederendum/peoples vote. I don't know why these two polls come as a shock to you?


You may wish to read the poll question again, it does not ask 'what do you want to do now?', but rather 'what do you think the term "no deal Brexit" means'?'



Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure I've put this here before, so apologies if I'm repeating it.
> 
> For a *Confidence Level of 95% *(you've got a 19/20 chance of getting it "right")
> 
> And with a *Confidence Interval of +/- 3%* ("right" meaning within 3% of the actual answer)
> 
> And a *population of 66,000,000* (c. UK)
> 
> You need a *sample size of 1067*.
> 
> Here's a link for anyone who wants to look at the statistical science and a calculator to play with.
> 
> https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm


Total respondents to this poll was 7,834


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Jesthar like many remain and leave voters I am not bothered about media polls anymore.


----------



## KittenKong

No sympathies here. I was once a regular customer, not anymore since 2016.

Perhaps he'll be the next one to take his business away from the UK.

They'll be nothing left at this rate!
Poor little Britain.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-j...rns-on-profit-amid-rising-costs-idUKKCN1PH0JB


----------



## noushka05

This is Tom Newton Dunn of the right wing SUN:Jawdrop

*Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified account @tnewtondunn
_Senior Govt minister claims Tory vote collapsing in middle class Remain areas:

"If you knock on a door and they have books on their shelves, you can be pretty sure these days they're not voting Tory".

........................................................................................................................................................_


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @Jesthar like many remain and leave voters I am not bothered about media polls anymore.


Yet, as the poll suggests, not everyone realises that.


----------



## noushka05

*Oliver Norgrove*‏Verified account @OliverNorgrove 23h23 hours ago
_I cannot drive home the point hard enough that during the referendum, nobody on our campaign, nor in UKIP/Leave.EU spoke seriously in favour of a no deal. Anybody who said they voted for a no deal on 23/6/16 is historically revisionist and a liar

...._


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> No sympathies here. I was once a regular customer, not anymore since 2016.
> 
> Perhaps he'll be the next one to take his business away from the UK.
> 
> They'll be nothing left at this rate!
> Poor little Britain.
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-j...rns-on-profit-amid-rising-costs-idUKKCN1PH0JB
> 
> View attachment 389674


Schadenfreude is not good, but sometimes it's difficult to resist!


----------



## stockwellcat.

PM confirms there will not be a vote on stopping no deal on the 29th January 2019.

Meanwhile on the otherside of the house:









Looks like the PM is right that there is not a majority in the house of commons for a second referendum/peoples vote. Even Labour Frontbenchers don't want one, looks like they aren't united at all in the Labour party for a second referendum/peoples vote.


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> *Oliver Norgrove*‏Verified account @OliverNorgrove 23h23 hours ago
> _I cannot drive home the point hard enough that during the referendum, nobody on our campaign, nor in UKIP/Leave.EU spoke seriously in favour of a no deal. Anybody who said they voted for a no deal on 23/6/16 is historically revisionist and a liar
> 
> ...._


Indeed. Remember this?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Indeed. Remember this?


It was the PM's and Parliaments decision to proceed at speed nothing to do with voteleavetakebackcontrol.org. The PM is a remain voter and backer she believes it is right to honour the referendum results and to respect the result by triggering article 50 and MP's backed her by backing the vote with an overwhelming majority. Cameron promised to implement the results which ever way it swayed the next day but instead hot footed it into the sunset by resigning.

Gina Millar made it possible for Parliament to vote for the triggering of Article 50 and the following processes with her court case.

Do we have to revisit old ground again? 
Why keep bringing the past up as it isn't going to change the results or change peoples minds or alter where things are right now (this time in history)?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Do we have to revisit old ground again?
> Why keep bringing the past up as it isn't going to change the results or change peoples minds or alter where things are right now (this time in history)?


Until such a time as we no longer need to learn lessons from history, yes.

I do admire your persistance in missing the point, though


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Until such a time as we no longer need to learn lessons from history, yes.
> 
> I do admire your persistance in missing the point, though


The point has been discussed a number of times so why does it need discussing again as your point has already been discussed?

Do you blame me for skimming over it when it has been discussed so many times and some remainers on this thread insist on going around in circles.

Are you dizzy yet?


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> There was another poll done by Sky News the other day


You bet there was; but polls are so often wrong that I never now look at them. Remember before the referendum . . . I don't recall a single poll even hinting that Leave might win.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> You bet there was; but polls are so often wrong that I never now look at them. Remember before the referendum . . . I don't recall a single poll even hinting that Leave might win.


Survation, June 2016

With a week to go until the EU Referendum new Survation polling, on behalf of IG, shows "Leave" in the lead for the first time since our joint polling series began in April and Survation first started telephone polling the EU Referendum back in February.

Excluding Undecided voters, headline results are:

*Remain 48% (-6) Leave 52% (+6)*​


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> You bet there was; but polls are so often wrong that I never now look at them. Remember before the referendum . . . I don't recall a single poll even hinting that Leave might win.


Yes I remember the polls before the referendum and the polls on the day before the referendum the polls said that remain would win. I remember the moment on TV as the results came in at about 5am to 5:30am on the 24th June 2016 when the results changed to leave (before this remain was way ahead).


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You bet there was; but polls are so often wrong that I never now look at them. Remember before the referendum . . . I don't recall a single poll even hinting that Leave might win.


Leave won due to The Sun's front page.

They did the same in 1992 when Labour were ahead in all polls.


----------



## stockwellcat.

A summary of the polls before the referendum by the FT.
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Even on the day of the referendum 23rd June 2016 the polls suggested remain would win by a small majority. I wonder if leave voters would have caused as much fuss as remainers have if this was actually the result?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The point has been discussed a number of times so why does it need discussing again as your point has already been discussed?
> 
> Do you blame me for skimming over it when it has been discussed so many times and some remainers on this thread insist on going around in circles.
> 
> Are you dizzy yet?


I don't recall this particular point (that none of the Leave campaigns promoted No Deal, and in fact reassured people we would still be in the free trade zone etc.) being rationally discussed, though. I've seen it be dismissed, ridiculed, mocked, sidestepped, diverted, eyerolled at and ignored, but not discussed.

That people who worked for the Leave campaigns are pointing this out should surely give pause for careful thought on the topic, one would think.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> I don't recall this particular point (that none of the Leave campaigns promoted No Deal,


It's what a lot hoped for though when they put their cross


----------



## Elles

No deal at all wasn’t generally discussed. There was plenty of time to agree some kind of deal, even if only very basic, but most said that we would have a trade deal with the Eu and also be able to agree global deals. If we were to come out with no deal at all, I have no doubt at all that it won’t be a permanent state and deals with the Eu and Europe will be arranged pronto. Probably within days, if not on the day.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> It's what a lot hoped for though when they put their cross


I'm not sure it's possible to qualify this statement, let alone quantify it...


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> I'm not sure it's possible to qualify this statement, let alone quantify it...


Why would you feel the need too?


----------



## JessandJackson_x

I don't follow politics and so do not vote, BUT - with or without Brexit... does anyone think the house prices will fall/rise ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

JessandJackson_x said:


> I don't follow politics and so do not vote, BUT - with or without Brexit... does anyone think the house prices will fall/rise ?


I think they have been predicted to fall with Brexit happening. Not sure without Brexit happening.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Why would you feel the need too?


Because without doing so, it is only an unqualified assumption. Not really something suitable for basing national policy on, logically speaking.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> A summary of the polls before the referendum by the FT.
> https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/
> 
> Even on the day of the referendum 23rd June 2016 the polls suggested remain would win by a small majority. I wonder if leave voters would have caused as much fuss as remainers have if this was actually the result?
> 
> View attachment 389685


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ems-would-block-eu-referendum-says-tusk-video

*Cameron thought Lib Dems would block EU referendum, says Tusk - video*

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/22...er-uk-pm-cameron-is-victim-of-his-own-victory
*
Raw Moment: Tusk claims former UK PM Cameron is 'victim of his own victory'*


----------



## Jesthar

JessandJackson_x said:


> I don't follow politics and so do not vote, BUT - with or without Brexit... does anyone think the house prices will fall/rise ?


I was speaking with friend who is an estate agent last night. They haven't a clue, but they've suddenly been insanely busy since Christmas - their workload has at least quadrupled at an estimate. A desire to sell pre-Brexit seems common.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JessandJackson_x said:


> I don't follow politics and so do not vote, BUT - with or without Brexit... does anyone think the house prices will fall/rise ?


May I ask why you don't vote?

I think that anyone who doesn't vote, doesn't have the right to have a say in on what is going on.


----------



## JessandJackson_x

Lol - I haven't given my opinion I have just asked if the house prices will fall or rise as we are looking to buy this year so will use that to our advantage :Hilarious

Plus, I didn't even need to tell any of you that I do or don't vote 

If I was to vote, it would be something like Green Party - save the turtles :Turtle


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> May I ask why you don't vote?
> 
> I think that anyone who doesn't vote, doesn't have the right to have a say in on what is going on.


Perhaps in future then I should keep my mouth firmly shut?

I didn't vote because I wasn't allowed to by the 15 year rule.


----------



## JessandJackson_x

@Happy Paws - And with regards to not voting - I don't understand it, or want to understand, have the time to understand - enough to warrant picking a team and voting for them... hope that helps answer your query


----------



## Happy Paws2

JessandJackson_x said:


> Lol - I haven't given my opinion I have just asked if the house prices will fall or rise as we are looking to buy this year so will use that to our advantage :Hilarious
> 
> Plus, I didn't even need to tell any of you that I do or don't vote
> 
> If I was to vote, it would be something like Green Party - save the turtles :Turtle


So don't waste your vote and vote *Green *


----------



## JessandJackson_x

Happy Paws said:


> So don't waste your vote and vote *Green *


I am not on the electoral role as I am renting (I get you can be but I choose not to sit down and tick the box) - perhaps another year...another day... when I've solidified my abode in a cheaper house that belongs to me, aye ;-)


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> *Perhaps in future then I should keep my mouth firmly shut?*
> 
> I didn't vote because I wasn't allowed to by the 15 year rule.


Well in that case maybe you should


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Well in that case maybe you should


Thank you kindly!

The Grand Duchess asks me to send her love to the Marquise de Brie-Ard!


----------



## Happy Paws2

JessandJackson_x said:


> I am not on the electoral role as I am renting (I get you can be but I choose not to sit down and tick the box) - perhaps another year...another day... when I've solidified my abode in a cheaper house that belongs to me, aye ;-)


I don't under stand, we rent and are on the electoral role, just get i touch with them you should be able to vote.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*A guide to American 'food' imports*
27th July 2017









*IF Britain strikes a trade deal with the US, what low-quality food will be on your menu?*

*Pig-flavour Chunky Bits*
Made from the parts of pigs no one knew existed, such as the 'inner flange' and the 'duct hole'. The resulting product tastes so unlike pork it has to be flavoured with the equally mysterious 'bacon concentrate'.

*American chocolate*
Actually a form of edible plastic, American chocolate is incredibly sweet with a watery, milk-like flavour that leaves an oily residue in your mouth. Preferred by most Americans to real chocolate because they actively enjoy nausea.

*Substi-fruit*
Artificial fruit encompassing everything from apples and orange to figs and lychees. Using a complex chemical process, compacted lard is made into objects that look identical to real fruit but are flavoured with pungent chemicals normally used in air fresheners.

*Fisho*
Made from waste parts of fish including fins and eyeballs, Fisho is almost indistinguishable in taste and texture from cheap real fillets and contains 9,800 calories per serving.

*Mom's Traditional Southern-style Hickory Beef*
Highly toxic meat substitute made from gravel softened in ammonia. Flavoured with the chemical DBT 11, originally developed as a defoliant during the Vietnam War.

*Dairyfresh Cheese*
A vast army of lawyers employed by the Dairyfresh Cheese Corporation prevents anyone in the US finding out the cheese is actually made from bleached and disinfected moose excrement. Hugely popular despite its bland 'nothing' taste.

*'Meat'*
Little is known about the exact contents of 'meat' except that its manufacturer, The 'Meat' Company of Detroit, busses in large numbers of homeless people to work at its vast rendering plant.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you kindly!
> 
> The Grand Duchess asks me to send her love to the Marquise de Brie-Ard!


Dillon says thank you, his sorry he hasn't been on touch with his LOVE but his been very poorly the last few months, Mom says she thought she had lost me once I was so ill, but I'm feeling better at the moment.


----------



## JessandJackson_x

@Happy Paws 


Happy Paws said:


> I don't under stand, we rent and are on the electoral role, just get i touch with them you should be able to vote.


You dont have to understand or let it wind you up lol - just get over the fact that at present, I am not actively voting .


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> *Substi-fruit*
> Artificial fruit encompassing everything from apples and orange to figs and lychees. Using a complex chemical process, compacted lard is made into objects that look identical to real fruit but are flavoured with pungent chemicals normally used in air fresheners.


Closer to the truth than many would like to think - I went to Florida a couple of years ago, and whilst looking for orange juice in the local Walmart, I actually saw a product advertising itself as orange juice guaranteed 100% free of actual oranges. Yup - 100% chemically created orange juice - in the sunshine state! Wish I'd taken a photo as proof!

Incidentally, we never did find the fruit and veg aisle...


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> Indeed. Remember this?


I do now lol

The lies they told to influence people into voting against their own best interests is beyond belief.

,,,


----------



## KittenKong

Some thoughts on Dyson and co:

It hardly inspires confidence in a post-Brexit UK if prominent Brexiters don't wish to participate in it.

If they don't, how on earth do they expect anyone else to? 

It just proves it was never about the flag and "Land of Hope and Glory" rubbish.

They're hardly setting a good example except to join firms like Philips and Sony in leaving the UK!


----------



## Arnie83

The pound has risen about a cent against the dollar today:

From the Beeb

Analyst Neil Wilson from markets.com offers his thoughts on the pound's revival.

"The pound is trading at its highest since November amid indications that a no-deal Brexit is becoming less likely," he says.

"The latest is that Labour will support a move to prevent a no-deal exit. This raises the spectre of a delay to Brexit, which seems to have been taken as a reason to bid up the pound.​
There will be other reasons as well of course, but it is indicative of the economic threat posed by No Deal that business and the markets are so very much against it, since if there's one thing that we can rely on it is self-interest!

Something to bear in mind when the ERG types tell us there is nothing to worry about and that any warnings of economic disruption are just scaremongering.


----------



## Arnie83

From Bloomberg - I haven't looked for a corroborative source:

*Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the pro-Brexit European Research Group, said that if the Cooper-Boles attempt [the amendment they have put forward] to delay Britain's departure from the EU were to pass, the government should suspend Parliament -- using a process known as prorogation.

That would stop the current session, meaning that all pending legislation - including Cooper and Boles's bill - would fall. If the government didn't do this, Rees-Mogg told supporters in London, it would make May complicit in taking no-deal off the table, and her party would hold her to account.*​
So Rees-Mogg is urging May effectively to silence Parliament, sovereignty of which this is supposed to be all about, urging her to behave pretty much like a tinpot dictator, and threatening reprisals if she doesn't.

And to think that the reason some people voted to Leave was a perceived democratic deficit in Brussels.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> From Bloomberg - I haven't looked for a corroborative source:
> 
> *Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the pro-Brexit European Research Group, said that if the Cooper-Boles attempt [the amendment they have put forward] to delay Britain's departure from the EU were to pass, the government should suspend Parliament -- using a process known as prorogation.
> 
> That would stop the current session, meaning that all pending legislation - including Cooper and Boles's bill - would fall. If the government didn't do this, Rees-Mogg told supporters in London, it would make May complicit in taking no-deal off the table, and her party would hold her to account.*​
> So Rees-Mogg is urging May effectively to silence Parliament, sovereignty of which this is supposed to be all about, urging her to behave pretty much like a tinpot dictator, and threatening reprisals if she doesn't.
> 
> And to think that the reason some people voted to Leave was a perceived democratic deficit in Brussels.


There's this in City AM

http://www.cityam.com/272082/suspen...etter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190123_Fi


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> There's this in City AM
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/272082/suspen...etter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190123_Fi


Thank you.

I flatly refuse to believe that a majority of the People want, or in 2016 wanted, a no deal Brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I flatly refuse to believe that a majority of the People want, or in 2016 wanted, a no deal Brexit.


They certainly weren't advertised a no deal Brexit, or does my memory fail me when I recall myriad promises of negotiating much better deals with ease?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> They certainly weren't advertised a no deal Brexit, or does my memory fail me when I recall myriad promises of negotiating much better deals with ease?


I think the myriad of much better deals were with other countries, particularly Australia, Canada,USA, that kind of thing, not necessarily the Eu. Though I don't remember no deal specifically being mentioned either way tbh.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> They certainly weren't advertised a no deal Brexit, or does my memory fail me when I recall myriad promises of negotiating much better deals with ease?


The easiest deal in human history.

We hold all the cards.

The exact same benefits.

etc.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1548259332


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think the myriad of much better deals were with other countries, particularly Australia, Canada,USA, that kind of thing, not necessarily the Eu. Though I don't remember no deal specifically being mentioned either way tbh.


I honestly don't remember that at all. I may be mis-remembering, but I'm sure the idea that trade deals with other countries were the major benefit of Brexit only came to the fore once it was clear that the deal with the EU would leave us considerably worse off.

Hence the slogans were all about "taking back control of our borders, our laws and our money", with our trade policy conspicuously absent from the soundbite.


----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps Brexiters believe they'll be a British Disney?


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35598038

https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00358533.2016.1233761

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...llow-Britain-to-embrace-the-Commonwealth.html

Pre referendum stuff about how we can trade with commonwealth countries as well as, or instead of the Eu.

This includes lies about African countries, which are and were already being exploited by the British and others. Calling out the Eu on trade with Africa when an ex PM of Britain, backed by Russians started a company solely to exploit resources in Somalia and rip off an African country.


----------



## cheekyscrip

There is still plenty though who believe that we have to have Brexit, because the foreigners take all the jobs and all the benefits then send all the money abroad, and on 30 March 2019 they all, EU or not will vanish and Britain will be great again, once we deport them all.
Then have myriad of great deals with all countries they came from. Which will be very easy because they need us more than we need them.


----------



## noushka05

How the political overton window looks.

*Gervaise Miller*‏
The Political Cha Cha slide!

Slide to the right:

UKIP= Old BNP
Tories= Old UKIP
Lib Dems= Old Tories (Coalition)

Slide to the left: 
Labour= Old Labour

Cha Cha Real Smooth
Greens= Fantastically consistent
,,,


----------



## noushka05

Do people still rooting for brexit care?

*Julia GF*‏ @DrJMGF
*Brexit fact*: _Our oncologists cn't guarantee the supply of my daughter's cancer treatment after Brexit. 
The treatment that's keeping her in remission from relapsed ALCL.

U might worry abt the economic impact bt cancer parents are worrying abt their kids life

....._


----------



## MilleD

JessandJackson_x said:


> I am not on the electoral role as I am renting (I get you can be but I choose not to sit down and tick the box) - perhaps another year...another day... when I've solidified my abode in a cheaper house that belongs to me, aye ;-)


I hope you fill in the electoral role form if you've had one as that's compulsory.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I remember the moment on TV as the results came in at about 5am


Me too; even Farage said ''It looks as tho' they've edged us'' then another result came in and everything changed.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 389684
> 
> :Hilarious


My neighbour used to work for Dyson (commuted London to Malmesbury) but back then I am pretty sure he said that production was moving to Singapore. That was years before Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Leave won due to The Sun's front page


So you keep on saying, tho' Brexit voters whom I know are not _Sun_ readers (unless they are closet online readers). My guess is that the majority of _Sun _readers would be too gormless to vote anyway.


----------



## Magyarmum

Press release from the European Commission.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-642_en.htm

*Speech by Michel Barnier at the European Economic and Social Committee*


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Press release from the European Commission.
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-642_en.htm
> 
> *Speech by Michel Barnier at the European Economic and Social Committee*


The reality will not sink in too those stupid politicians. They still think they have control of this.............................Only Theresa May seems to have grasped of reality


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Press release from the European Commission.
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-642_en.htm
> 
> *Speech by Michel Barnier at the European Economic and Social Committee*


I think this is the key part of the speech:


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> The reality will not sink in too those stupid politicians. They still think they have control of this.............................*Only Theresa May seems to have grasped of reality*


I totally agree with you.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> My neighbour used to work for Dyson (commuted London to Malmesbury) but back then I am pretty sure he said that production was moving to Singapore. That was years before Brexit.


Yes indeed, production was moved to the far East. Dyson received a knighthood soon afterwards for his efforts.

With his apparent support for Brexit you'd think he would lead by example by moving production back to the UK, instead the entire company will no longer be a "British" one, let alone a manufacturer of British made products.

Which proves the point it's all about avoiding proposed EU tax regulations rather than flying the flag and singing "Land of hope and glory" from the rooftops.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed, production was moved to the far East. Dyson received a knighthood soon afterwards for his efforts.
> 
> With his apparent support for Brexit you'd think he would lead by example by moving production back to the UK, instead the entire company will no longer be a "British" one, let alone a manufacturer of British made products.
> 
> Which proves the point it's all about avoiding proposed EU tax regulations rather than flying the flag and singing "Land of hope and glory" from the rooftops.


You're very good at missing the point. He didn't get a knighthood for moving manufacture to the far east.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35598038
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00358533.2016.1233761
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...llow-Britain-to-embrace-the-Commonwealth.html
> 
> Pre referendum stuff about how we can trade with commonwealth countries as well as, or instead of the Eu.
> 
> This includes lies about African countries, which are and were already being exploited by the British and others. Calling out the Eu on trade with Africa when an ex PM of Britain, backed by Russians started a company solely to exploit resources in Somalia and rip off an African country.


Thanks for that. I think in a way it actually reinforces the impression I had that new trade deals weren't anywhere near as important in the campaign as they are now, when they are the only tangible benefit being (falsely) claimed by the Brexiteers. I was going to pick them all apart, but that would bore even you (!) so ...

The BBC one has the usual unpleasant undertones from the Leave campaign, (as do some of the others) and also quotes them saying:

"As long as Britain's trade policy is controlled by the EU, we cannot sign bilateral free trade agreements with Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Australia, New Zealand or for that matter any other non-EU state."​
What they don't mention or maybe didn't know ...

The EU & Pakistan have a bilateral trade cooperation agreement (2004), the 5 year engagement plan (2012), and Pakistan is " is a major beneficiary of the trading opportunities offered by the EU Generalised Scheme of Preferences".

India's first demand is for easing visa requirements for migration, which is something of a red line for many Leavers.

The EU is currently negotiating free trade deals with both Australia & New Zealand.

And Bangladesh? EU / Bangladesh Cooperation Agreement 2001, and, as a least developed country, benefits from the EU's "Everything but Arms" arrangement, which grants duty free, quota free access for all exports, except arms and ammunition.

It goes on:

"Vested interests on the Continent sustain a relatively protectionist policy. We have to apply the EU's common external tariff to exports from Commonwealth countries - hurting consumers here as well as producers there.​
Fact checks show that the EU is in fact on the liberal side when it comes to protectionist trade policies (not that facts change people's minds, it seems), and as I've posted before, most African countries - where 19 Commonwealth members are - already benefit from the same sort of arrangement as Bangladesh and are completely free of both tariffs and quotas. I haven't researched the others but I very much suspect the same will apply.

Perhaps that is why trade deals were not lauded quite so much back then, when other promises still had some traction. I would suggest that it was only after the referendum, (when the £350m per week vanished, as did Turkey's 75 million migrants, and when the easiest negotiation in human history landed us with a £39 billion bill, and the government's own figures were leaked to show that every type of Brexit would leave us worse off, etc.) that global trade deals became the big prize.

The trouble is, if they are subjected to the same rudimentary scrutiny as I have shown above, they also vanish into the mist where the unicorns live.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Which proves the point it's all about avoiding proposed EU tax regulations rather than flying the flag and singing "Land of hope and glory" from the rooftops.


I believe he will still be living in the UK with his Billion £s and increasing the size of his British Farm holding (he's just bought more despite possible loss of EU grant etc) and producing British food and inventing British farming methods to sell to the world.
We might need him to feed us if our politicians gets their way


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> So you keep on saying, tho' Brexit voters whom I know are not _Sun_ readers (unless they are closet online readers). My guess is that the majority of _Sun _readers would be too gormless to vote anyway.


I think the idea is that papers like the Sun might have influence sufficient of their "gormless" readers to tip the balance, rather than suggesting that a large proportion of the 17 million leave voters were in fact Sun readers. Your personally known Leave voters would no doubt fall into the much larger Leave constituency of non-Sun readers.

It's an impossible thing to prove one way or the other, but it is an interesting thought: The Sun (apparently) has a circulation of 1.4 million and a 'reach' of 3 million. If it had told its readers to vote Remain, would the result have been the opposite?

Does it depend on the amount of gorm?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> So you keep on saying, tho' Brexit voters whom I know are not _Sun_ readers (unless they are closet online readers). My guess is that the majority of _Sun _readers would be too gormless to vote anyway.


It's not only The Sun of course if you add the BBC, Mail, Express and Telegraph plus of course social media from the likes of Britain First etc. but I know people who switched from Labour to voting Tory due to an article in The Sun about Labour's defence policy in 1987.

It's the UK'S biggest selling "News" paper except in Liverpool of course.

Oh yes, Liverpool voted remain didn't they.

Says it all...


----------



## Arnie83

I don't think Dyson's move is much, if anything, to do with Brexit. It's not a good look right now, but the spin put on it by anti-Leavers is very much open to question.

It also detracts from the very good arguments against Brexit, which is a shame, though all a bit late I think.


----------



## ReW13PiTBuLL

JANICE199 said:


> *It's been said start a new thread about the subject if people want to discuss it. So here's the place*


Hey do u have a min to give me alil help plz


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think Dyson's move is much, if anything, to do with Brexit. It's not a good look right now, but the spin put on it by anti-Leavers is very much open to question.
> 
> It also detracts from the very good arguments against Brexit, which is a shame, though all a bit late I think.


It probably isn't, but if I voted for Brexit on his promises of how good it would be for British business I would feel somewhat conned.

Indeed, a Brexiter on another forum focuses on the Weatherspoons boss (keep forgetting his name) and Dyson as examples of business confidence in the UK leaving the EU. They were given frequent publicity by the usual pro Brexit media.

People like Alan Sugar etc. barely got a mention, except to call them, "Remoaners"...


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 389839


Is that supposed to be funny?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 389839


Whoever wrote that was in a rush or their superior intellect failed them because there are lots of spelling mistakes.

Didn't find it funny at all.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I know there are a few SNP supporters on here so here you go...

Alex Salmond former SNP First Minister arrested and charged and to appear in court later.

https://news.sky.com/story/alex-salmond-former-snp-leader-arrested-and-charged-11616043


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Me too; even Farage said ''It looks as tho' they've edged us'' then another result came in and everything changed.


Farage was lying.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...xit-pollster-a-world-of-gamblers-and-gambling

Here is 'the man of the people' grinning as the pound plunges after result of the brexit vote.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> I know there are a few SNP supporters on here so here you go...
> 
> Alex Salmond former SNP First Minister arrested and charged and to appear in court later.
> 
> https://www.news.sky.com/story/amp/alex-salmond-former-snp-leader-arrested-and-charged-11616043


I wonder whether it's anything to do with this?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/01/salmond-vs-sturgeon-when-friendship-turns-war


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:
"Respect democracy!" says man trying to impose dictatorship.


----------



## Arnie83

Where Dyson's move is probably little to do with Brexit, Airbus, on the other hand ...

Tim Enders, Airbus chief executive:

"Please don't listen to the Brexiteers' madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong."

Mr Enders said that while the world's second-largest aerospace group could not "pick up and move our large UK factories to other parts of the world immediately", Airbus could be "forced to redirect future investments in the event of a no-deal Brexit".

"And make no mistake, there are plenty of countries out there who would love to build the wings for Airbus aircraft," he added.

"Brexit is threatening to destroy a century of development based on education, research and human capital."​
Those who think it's all scaremongering must have a very long list by now of those who are lying to them about the effects of, especially, a No Deal Brexit. And while there are some companies who have said Brexit will make no difference, there is a dearth of those for whom Brexit is reason to expand operations here.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:
*sings*

"On the 66th day pre-Brexit my true love said to me:

Sony moved to Holland 
Dyson moved to Singapore 
P&O reflag as Cyprus 
Hard border coming 
Dixons stock-pi-ling... 
Pets at Home are too 
More jobs go CEOs despair

And we're still heading for a No Deal."


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Which proves the point it's all about avoiding proposed EU tax regulations


Like Branson - lives on Necker (not sure if that's one that he owns).


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> You're very good at missing the point


I'm fairly sure that @KittenKong was being ironic; that's how I read it.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Like Branson - lives on Necker (not sure if that's one that he owns).


Not doubting that. Like Dyson he's a successful businessman but, for all his faults, he didn't advertise Brexit as being good for UK business as Dyson did.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Then there's Deborah Meaden too...


----------



## JessandJackson_x

MilleD said:


> I hope you fill in the electoral role form if you've had one as that's compulsory.


Will you report me if I haven't found it ?


----------



## KittenKong

I'm sure many Brexiters will be excited at the prospect of their Queen shutting down Parliament to ensure JRM and co get their hard Brexit.

An unelected figurehead in her nineties taking control? You couldn't make it up...


----------



## Happy Paws2

_it just gets better.... _

_Sony announced it was planning to move its European headquarters from the UK to the Netherlands to avoid disruptions caused by Brexit.

And Aeroplane maker *Airbus has warned that it could move wing-building out of the UK *in the future if there is a no-deal Brexit._


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> I'm sure many Brexiters will be excited at the prospect of their Queen shutting down Parliament to ensure JRM and co get their hard Brexit.
> 
> An unelected figurehead in her nineties taking control? You couldn't make it up...


*Can she shut down parliament? I didn't think she could. *


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> I know there are a few SNP supporters on here so here you go...
> 
> Alex Salmond former SNP First Minister arrested and charged and to appear in court later.
> 
> https://www.news.sky.com/story/amp/alex-salmond-former-snp-leader-arrested-and-charged-11616043


I can't see that link. When is it dated?


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *Can she shut down parliament? I didn't think she could. *


I don't think she had the power to. The PM can.


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I can't see that link. When is it dated?


This link works 
https://news.sky.com/story/alex-salmond-former-snp-leader-arrested-and-charged-11616043


----------



## Elles

It's a problem, because most of the issues surround predictions regarding a 'no deal' Brexit, which is being used by some to mean any Brexit. It then does become scaremongering. Add to that brexit blaming for companies that do have operations worldwide and are expanding them outside of the U.K., or are experiencing difficulties due to global downturns and it all starts to look a bit iffy.

By all means blame brexit uncertainty when it is a factor, but as one of the criticisms of leave voters is that they blamed the Eu for things the Eu had no control over, it would be rather hypocritical for the same people to blame brexit for circumstances it has nothing to do with. Of course @Arnie83 is careful to try not to, as evidenced by the Dyson post. 

The majority of (influential) brexiteers would prefer to leave with a deal. Both leave and remain supporters are usually talking about a disorderly no deal, as the Eu like to call it, when they talk about the more extreme predictions. The 'no deal' scenario is muddying the waters somewhat and distracting from talking about much else.

Most of the reports these days seem to discuss 'no deal', a People's Vote, or the Irish backstop as though that's all there is to it. Companies have said that a deal will take away uncertainty and allow them to start considering their investments again, they've even asked for support for TM's deal. Where they are expressing a concern, it's often no deal that concerns them most, not necessarily brexit. Though of course some of the more determined don't mind 'no deal' and may even prefer it. Even I'd be suspicious of their motives, or thought processes though. :Greedy


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think she had the power to. The PM can.


*Looking on google i found this.*
*" The Queen has the power to form governments. The Queen previously wielded the power to dissolve Parliament and call a general election, but the Fixed-TermParliaments Act put an end to that in 2011. Now a two-thirds vote in the commons is required to dissolve Parliament before a five-year fixed-term is up.*


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I'm sure many Brexiters will be excited at the prospect of their Queen shutting down Parliament to ensure JRM and co get their hard Brexit.
> 
> An unelected figurehead in her nineties taking control? You couldn't make it up...


What a pity she's QE2 and not QE1 because then the solution would be simple .....


----------



## rona

JANICE199 said:


> *Can she shut down parliament? I didn't think she could. *


I don't think she wants to, it's that po faced arrogant Rees-mogg that has threatened this


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *Looking on google i found this.*
> *" The Queen has the power to form governments. The Queen previously wielded the power to dissolve Parliament and call a general election, but the Fixed-TermParliaments Act put an end to that in 2011. Now a two-thirds vote in the commons is required to dissolve Parliament before a five-year fixed-term is up.*


If the PM wants to close Parliament I am not sure of the procedure but I am sure the Queen cannot do it. JRM is suggesting an American Government style walk out closing down public services etc not dissolving Parliament.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> If the PM wants to close Parliament I am not sure of the procedure but I am sure the Queen cannot do it. JRM is suggesting an American Government style walk out closing down public services etc not dissolving Parliament.


*The way things are going in this country i can only see bad coming out of the situation. It won't be long and we will see riots. All this unrest isn't good for the country, or the people. *


----------



## stockwellcat.

JANICE199 said:


> *The way things are going in this country i can only see bad coming out of the situation. It won't be long and we will see riots. All this unrest isn't good for the country, or the people. *


There isn't any unrest, I haven't heard or seen any on the news in the UK. The only unrest I have seen is in France.

I doubt there will be riots at all. To suggest there will be riots is scaremongering.

Are remainers now suggesting they will cause civil unrest and riots?


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> There isn't any unrest, I haven't heard or seen any on the news in the UK. The only unrest I have seen is in France.
> 
> I doubt there will be riots at all. To suggest there will be riots is scaremongering.


*I wasn't scaremongering at all. It is my honest opinion. And i believe there is plenty of unrest. But i will leave it there.*


----------



## Magyarmum

Charming! Do you think he's trying to negotiate a Trade Deal ready for when he becomes PM????

http://www.cityam.com/272114/labour...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190124_CMU

*EXCLUSIVE: Corbyn hosts Venezuelan diplomat in parliament as anti-Maduro protests erupt across the socialist country*


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit: MPs drop plan to put second referendum to Commons vote*

MPs have dropped plans to table an amendment to next week's Commons vote on Theresa May's Brexit deal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-46987529

Looks like a peoples vote is not going to happen as MP's won't be tabling an amendment for one.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Charming! Do you think he's trying to negotiate a Trade Deal ready for when he becomes PM????
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/272114/labour...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190124_CMU
> 
> *EXCLUSIVE: Corbyn hosts Venezuelan diplomat in parliament as anti-Maduro protests erupt across the socialist country*


Yesterday Liam Fox announced that the UK has it's first trade deal in ready to happen with Israel and more are on the way.

http://www.cityam.com/272092/davos-liam-fox-agrees-future-trade-deal-israel-uk-seeks


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's a problem, because most of the issues surround predictions regarding a 'no deal' Brexit, which is being used by some to mean any Brexit. It then does become scaremongering. Add to that brexit blaming for companies that do have operations worldwide and are expanding them outside of the U.K., or are experiencing difficulties due to global downturns and it all starts to look a bit iffy.
> 
> By all means blame brexit uncertainty when it is a factor, but as one of the criticisms of leave voters is that they blamed the Eu for things the Eu had no control over, it would be rather hypocritical for the same people to blame brexit for circumstances it has nothing to do with. Of course @Arnie83 is careful to try not to, as evidenced by the Dyson post.
> 
> The majority of (influential) brexiteers would prefer to leave with a deal. Both leave and remain supporters are usually talking about a disorderly no deal, as the Eu like to call it, when they talk about the more extreme predictions. The 'no deal' scenario is muddying the waters somewhat and distracting from talking about much else.
> 
> Most of the reports these days seem to discuss 'no deal', a People's Vote, or the Irish backstop as though that's all there is to it. Companies have said that a deal will take away uncertainty and allow them to start considering their investments again, they've even asked for support for TM's deal. Where they are expressing a concern, it's often no deal that concerns them most, not necessarily brexit. Though of course some of the more determined don't mind 'no deal' and may even prefer it. Even I'd be suspicious of their motives, or thought processes though. :Greedy


I absolutely agree that the No Deal option is dominating the current discourse, and things will definitely calm down once it is no longer an option, which I hope will be soon.

Without meaning to sound all doom and gloom, though, a deal that will take away uncertainty is not very close just yet. All May's Deal does is agree our Withdrawal from the EU, and - crucially - leaves the non-binding and not very detailed Political Declaration to be turned into a future relationship over the next 2 years or so (probably more). Until the shape of that begins to emerge - which means another battle between the wings of the Tories re 'common rule book', 'customs agreement' etc. - things will still be very much up in the air. But at least it will give business a 2-year (at least) breathing space.

The only thing that would give certainty in the relatively near future would be the People changing their mind, but I won't push that in this post!

If May's Deal does go through, though - and I think it will - I predict quite a significant boost for the pound and the economy, at least in the short term.


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *The way things are going in this country i can only see bad coming out of the situation. It won't be long and we will see riots. All this unrest isn't good for the country, or the people. *


I think you are probably quite right, but only if Brexit is cancelled or postponed for a significant period. There are a very few extremists on that side of the 'debate' who would not take kindly to seeing their dream of, let's say, national purity taken away from them.


----------



## rona

We've just done a multi million pound deal with Japan


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Yesterday Liam Fox announced that the UK has it's first trade deal in ready to happen with Israel and more are on the way.
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/272092/davos-liam-fox-agrees-future-trade-deal-israel-uk-seeks


https://www.thelocal.ch/20190123/davos-2019-uk-trade-chief-sells-great-new-world-after-brexit

http://www.cityam.com/272026/uk-takes-140bn-over-three-years-top-europe-foreign

*UK takes in $140bn over three years to top Europe for foreign investment*

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...deloitte-uk-power-up-uk-inward-investment.pdf


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> We've just done a multi million pound deal with Japan


https://www.thelocal.ch/20181217/switzerland-signs-off-on-post-brexit-trade-agreement-with-uk

*Switzerland signs off on post-Brexit trade agreement with UK*


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> We've just done a multi million pound deal with Japan


Who? The UK or EU?


----------



## stockwellcat.

3 Deals done then. Remainers said the UK couldn't do it.

Israel
Japan
Switzerland

More to come...


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*The Wetherspoons customer's guide to a no-deal Brexit*
24th January 2019









*ARE you a pants-wetting Remoaner who's worried about no-deal Brexit? Here Wetherspoons regular Norman Steele answers your questions at 10am with a pint.*

*Should I be worried about food shortages?*

**** off. We'll grow our own food. All you need is soil and seeds, and male animals and lady animals. I wish Remoaners would stop overcomplicating things.

If there's a short-term problem - which there won't be - we can always do a Dunkirk and get our brave 'little ships' to go to a supermarket in Calais. I'm getting choked up just thinking about it.

*Could there be civil unrest?*

There will be if May's traitor's deal goes through. Me, Brian and Dave have agreed to make petrol bombs and do a riot. This is in no way bullshit pisshead bravado caused by 11 pints in Spoons.

*Are we heading for an economic disaster? It certainly looks like it.*

Project Fear 3.0, mate. Sony may be ****ing off but we'll just make better tellies. They'll probably be totally interactive so you can shag Keeley Hawes in _Bodyguard_.

*Should I start stockpiling medicines I need?*

Nah. We're a plucky, 'can do' nation. Make your own medicines from whatever you've got in the house. A few aspirins here, a bit of Benylin there. If you're still feeling peaky have a few pints in Spoons.

In any case, we survived the war. Missing a few heart attack pills is nothing to this bulldog race who laughed in the face of U-boat attacks.

*Why do you keep irrelevantly and offensively mentioning the war?*

Because it's the finest moment in our proud island history. Also I don't know any other history because the kings-and-queens rubbish on History channel hasn't got tanks or the SS.

*No, seriously, what if I lose my job?*

What's the problem? More time to spend in Spoons.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The UK can strike trade deals in less than 18 months, it takes the EU 7 years plus. Cut out the middle man (the EU) and keep the deals rolling in.


----------



## MilleD

JessandJackson_x said:


> Will you report me if I haven't found it ?


No, got better things to do with my time. But enjoy paying the £5k fine if it's found out that you haven't.


----------



## JessandJackson_x

MilleD said:


> No, got better things to do with my time. But enjoy paying the £5k fine if it's found out that you haven't.


I'm sure by the time they find me I'll be on the electoral role - don't worry yourself and enjoy your time that you have spare


----------



## noushka05

Devastating. I'm sure it'll make those who voted to leave because of EU regulations very happy though 

*Caroline Lucas*‏:
_Despite urgent need to protect our oceans, this reckless Government is set to ditch key protection in new Fisheries Bill - yet another death knell for so-called Green #Brexit. #GoveWatch_

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/01/24/green-brexit-fishing-theresa-may/
*UK set to ditch overfishing safeguards, despite 'green Brexit' promise*

Decision not to adopt EU legal duty to end overfishing from 2020 came after fishing interests asked for target to be watered down


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.thelocal.ch/20181217/switzerland-signs-off-on-post-brexit-trade-agreement-with-uk
> 
> *Switzerland signs off on post-Brexit trade agreement with UK*


"However, the Swiss government has elsewhere sounded a note of caution by saying that the "fall-back" solution triggered by a "no-deal" situation could not "guarantee the continuation of the current level of treaty relations, especially in the harmonised areas". "​


----------



## Elles

The French and Germans are preparing similar actions in case of a no deal scenario. It’s one of the reasons for my earlier post about how there will be a scramble within days if not hours of a no deal exit, thus imho, ‘no deal’ will not be the disaster predicted, because it simply won’t happen in the way that’s being predicted. The Eu isn’t Europe.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> "However, the Swiss government has elsewhere sounded a note of caution by saying that the "fall-back" solution triggered by a "no-deal" situation could not "guarantee the continuation of the current level of treaty relations, especially in the harmonised areas". "​


Yes, I spotted that too. And Israel is only an 'agreement in principle', which I think means the real negotiations are still to come?

Oh, and they'll still need to be approved by Parliament, of course.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The French and Germans are preparing similar actions in case of a no deal scenario. It's one of the reasons for my earlier post about how there will be a scramble within days if not hours of a no deal exit, thus imho, 'no deal' will not be the disaster predicted, because it simply won't happen in the way that's being predicted. The Eu isn't Europe.


Exactly. In fact this was reported by Politico only a few hours ago.

https://www.politico.eu/article/calais-president-well-be-ready-even-for-a-no-deal-brexit/

*Calais president: 'We'll be ready,' even for a no-deal Brexit*
'Our ports and the Eurotunnel will be ready,' insists Xavier Bertrand.

"Tomorrow, our British neighbors may become non-EU citizens, but they will not become aliens. The U.K. will have been a member of the EU for almost half a century. This means it will never be just another third country. Europe needs to hear and understand this, and draw out all the consequences for the establishment of our new relationship," Bertrand said.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> *UK takes in $140bn over three years to top Europe for foreign investment*
> 
> https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...deloitte-uk-power-up-uk-inward-investment.pdf


This caught my eye because there is a Sussex University study concluding that Foreign Direct Investment has declined by 20% since the referendum. I'll see if I can find it.

Meanwhile the Deloitte report seems to confirm that the UK has been the top European destination over the period *2009-2018 *...

Between January 2009 and August 2018, London ranked first in terms of number of projects (with 4,110) ahead of Singapore (second with 3,832), New York (third with 2,854). London received the second highest level of capital investment, at $106,000 million behind Singapore at $126,601 million. London is the clear winner in Europe, with Paris, Dublin, Berlin and Madrid falling notably behind (see Figure 8).​
Then it goes on to say
It's likely that many businesses will be waiting for further clarity before making long-term investment decisions. The data available so far presents a mixed picture, but indicates that there has not been a drastic fall in investment since the UK's decision to leave the EU in 2016, but rather a slight decline.

In 2015, there were 1,374 FDI projects announced in the UK, compared to 1,170 in 2017 - meaning a 16% decline. In terms of UK jobs created - in 2015 there were 95,992 jobs created as a result of FDI, with 79,704 created in 2017.14 But two years does not represent a long-term trend, given that annual figures can vary significantly depending on just a few major projects.​
I'm not sure I'd call 16% "a slight decline", but there you go. As for a long term trend, I couldn't argue, but with the changes in the offing I'm not sure we can use the last 10 years as predictors of the next 10.

As for @rona 's Japanese deal, it certainly shows that being a full member of the EU isn't holding us back.

Edit: It was 19%, not 20, and here is the report:

https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/20...n-direct-investment-to-the-uk-by-19-per-cent/


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> I wasn't scaremongering at all.


I don't think SWC was pointing the finger at you, Janice, but at some of the articles you can read if you choose to. There are some pretty lurid headlines!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The French and Germans are preparing similar actions in case of a no deal scenario. It's one of the reasons for my earlier post about how there will be a scramble within days if not hours of a no deal exit, thus imho, 'no deal' will not be the disaster predicted, because it simply won't happen in the way that's being predicted. The Eu isn't Europe.


Hang about - the EU conducts trade negotiations for its members. France and Germany can't sign anything with the UK on their own. What 'actions' are we talking about here?


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Yes, I spotted that too. And Israel is only an 'agreement in principle', which I think means the real negotiations are still to come?
> 
> Oh, and they'll still need to be approved by Parliament, of course.


Yes I agree. Liam Fox may be talking up agreements in principle and shaking hands, but we are not allowed to negotiate the details of, nor sign any agreements until after we've left. And the devil, as we have seen, is in the detail.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Yes, I spotted that too. And Israel is only an 'agreement in principle', which I think means the real negotiations are still to come?
> 
> Oh, and they'll still need to be approved by Parliament, of course.


I beg to differ as the Swiss are claiming they have signed off a post brexit trade deal with the UK. Any UK Government has the power to side step Parliament if it wishes.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> The Eu isn't Europe.


A lot of people are only just now sussing that and many thought that the way they voted might mean no holidays in Spain (and hence voted accordingly).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> A lot of people are only just now sussing that and many thought that the way they voted might mean no holidays in Spain (and hence voted accordingly).


sssh some remainers on here still haven't sussed out the EU is not Europe.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Devastating. I'm sure it'll make those who voted to leave because of EU regulations very happy though
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏:
> _Despite urgent need to protect our oceans, this reckless Government is set to ditch key protection in new Fisheries Bill - yet another death knell for so-called Green #Brexit. #GoveWatch_
> 
> https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/01/24/green-brexit-fishing-theresa-may/
> *UK set to ditch overfishing safeguards, despite 'green Brexit' promise*
> 
> Decision not to adopt EU legal duty to end overfishing from 2020 came after fishing interests asked for target to be watered down


Interesting that the article mentions Senegal. China has just bought fishing rights from Somalia for peanuts. The government of Somalia (old boys club/tribal/less well educated) sold the rights cheaply in part because they can't police the coast and as countries including China were already taking the fish illegally, they might as well get paid something. The Huge factory ships are depleting stocks of fish all around Africa. My grandfather taught sustainable and profitable fishing methods to native Africans, until a coup got him and my grandmother kicked out and their bank accounts frozen and stolen.

https://www.africanexponent.com/pos...-gave-up-the-countrys-fishing-rights-to-china


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Hang about - the EU conducts trade negotiations for its members. France and Germany can't sign anything with the UK on their own. What 'actions' are we talking about here?


Read @Magyarmum 's link. The Europeans can force the Eu to comply, unless you're saying that the Eu holds power over European countries and can prevent them from clearing their own ports, roads and airports to pass traffic and trade in the air, ground and sea efficiently? That can't be true can it? The Eu have no control, that's why we don't need to leave to take it back. 

My point was that various European countries have been preparing for no deal, alongside the British government. Whether that's to keep things running smoothly, or to trade, so 'no deal' is highly unlikely to be the cliff edge disaster predicted. The point you made about the Swiss was that the so called deal was just a 'fall back' in case there was no deal with the Eu. I didn't say France and Germany were doing the same, I said similar actions. In that they too are preparing a 'fall back', sorry if my meaning wasn't clear, I can see why you thought I meant trade deals. Oops.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> sssh some remainers on here still haven't sussed out the EU is not Europe.


In the same sense the UK isn't a country.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> No, got better things to do with my time. But enjoy paying the £5k fine if it's found out that you haven't.


Does that date back to the Poll Tax?
People who weren't registered to vote couldn't be charged it.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> A lot of people are only just now sussing that and many thought that the way they voted might mean no holidays in Spain (and hence voted accordingly).


It will add 15-20% to the price so I guess for some it will mean no holidays.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Read @Magyarmum 's link. The Europeans can force the Eu to comply, unless you're saying that the Eu holds power over European countries and can prevent them from clearing their own ports, roads and airports to pass traffic and trade in the air, ground and sea efficiently? That can't be true can it? The Eu have no control, that's why we don't need to leave to take it back.
> 
> My point was that various European countries have been preparing for no deal, alongside the British government. Whether that's to keep things running smoothly, or to trade, so 'no deal' is highly unlikely to be the cliff edge disaster predicted. The point you made about the Swiss was that the so called deal was just a 'fall back' in case there was no deal with the Eu. I didn't say France and Germany were doing the same, I said similar actions. In that they too are preparing a 'fall back', sorry if my meaning wasn't clear, I can see why you thought I meant trade deals. Oops.


I think I was getting confused by all the various links suggesting that everything was going to be fine and that trade deals were all ready to go! (Which it isn't, and they're not!)

Certainly mitigating actions can, will and must be taken, especially in the immediate aftermath of a No Deal Brexit. But with, e.g. Felixstowe saying that there was no way it could be ready to do much of anything by the end of March, and with Calais's new freight facility apparently still a field, I don't think we should be overly reassured. With a 2-year transition I would hope things would be better.

But - being pessimistic / realistic again - if the negotiations for the future relationship go down to the wire like the last lot have, should Calais build a nice new freight processing facility on the assumption of customs checks only to find there it isn't needed, or do they not build one only to find that it is?!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It will add 15-20% to the price so I guess for some it will mean no holidays.


Slightly off topic but talking about holidays I found this by Travel Supermarket which I thought some might find informative.

https://www.travelsupermarket.com/e...ce/what-could-a-brexit-mean-for-our-holidays/

My family will be over in May and my DIL, granddaughter and I are off on a coach tour to Slovakia and the Czech Republic for a few days leaving my son to dog sit.

Going by my granddaughter's and my experience last year when we went to Poland I don't anticipate any problems. Although we took our passports with us we never had to show them during all the time we were away.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The BBC is reporting that Boris Johnson and JRM are about to back the withdrawal agreement in the next vote on the 29th January 2019.
*
Brexit: Are Leave-backers softening on Theresa May's deal?
*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46981032


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Remainers think they were told the truth.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Does that date back to the Poll Tax?
> People who weren't registered to vote couldn't be charged it.


You just can't help yourself can you?


----------



## Magyarmum

*"I voted Remain, not just for political reasons but because my mum's moved to Spain and I want her to stay there."*

* - Leo Kearse*


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 389898


Um you know that Europe and the EU are two different things right?

Is that why you're so upset? Do you think a massive ship is going to lasso our little island and drag it to Africa or America?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Um you know that Europe and the EU are two different things right?
> 
> Is that why you're so upset? Do you think a massive ship is going to lasso our little island and drag it to Africa or America?


Perhaps though we could tow Gibraltar and moor it just off Dover??

We'd have to do it quietly so as not to raise the suspicion of the Spanish..... maybe at night would be best!

If we spoke to @cheekyscrip perhaps she could arrange it?


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps though we could tow Gibraltar and moor it just off Dover??
> 
> We'd have to do it quietly so as not to raise the suspicion of the Spanish..... maybe at night would be best!
> 
> If we spoke to @cheekyscrip perhaps she could arrange it?


I have a feeling that Gibralter might lose it's appeal somewhat if you did that


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right. Remainers think they were told the truth.


No I don't we were totally, but the leave campaign started with boris and his lies and it just snowballed one lie after another.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> 3 Deals done then. Remainers said the UK couldn't do it.
> 
> Israel
> Japan
> Switzerland
> 
> More to come...


Switzerland is in Customs Union...
Europe is not EU but many countries there would like to join and many died in Ukraine fighting for it. If people in Belarus or Russia had a choice....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Just thinking - how many European countries who are not in EU and EEA - if their people had a free, democratic vote and honest campaigns would choose not to be in EEA or EU?

How many countries are kept in EU or EEA against their people wishes who are fighting to get out?

You realise that Russia has dictatorship and elections are fictional.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You just can't help yourself can you?


It's an honest question as in the days of the Poll Tax you received a bill if on the electrol register.

One of its big failures apart from its unfairness was the fact not everyone was registered to vote, thus couldn't be charged! Some deliberately didn't register to vote for that reason.



MilleD said:


> Um you know that Europe and the EU are two different things right?
> 
> Is that why you're so upset? Do you think a massive ship is going to lasso our little island and drag it to Africa or America?


It was a bit of fun, but ask the average Brexiter who'll tell you, "We're not European, we're British"...


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46995337

"Some EU countries are pushing for the European Union's no-deal legislation to be more generous to the UK. "


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Queen calls for 'coming together to seek out common ground' as MPs battle over Brexit*

The Queen is politically neutral in her role as head of state but her address on Wednesday marks the second time in the space of the month she has spoken of the need for tolerance.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/quee...mon-ground-as-mps-battle-over-brexit-11616820


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I flatly refuse to believe that a majority of the People want, or in 2016 wanted, a no deal Brexit.


I agree, but that does appear the preferred option now thanks to the media with terms like, "Scaremongering" and "Project Fear" becoming soundbites like, "Take back control" are.

So Brexiters, why are you afraid of a PV? You'll be able to tell May you don't like her deal and opt for No deal.

Then, even if you did she'd probably ignore it.


----------



## KittenKong

Bet the student in question wasn't allowed a vote in 2016. From Facebook:

I’m in beautiful Granada for a few days. Walking along side a man on the phone I overheard his conversation.

He was a professor at Granada University, calling a UK citizen back in the UK. 

I didn’t catch it all, but basically he was telling this person why he can’t accept his application to study at the university. 

It was something to do with funding. He told him after the 29th we won’t be in the EU so they can’t take his application. They don’t fund third Countries and that’s what we will be. 

I can’t help feeling sorry for this person. His whole plan has just changed.


----------



## KittenKong

Belgium Broadcasting Corporation anyone?

:Hilarious
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...onal-hq-belgium-brexit-netherlands-ireland-eu


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46995337
> 
> "Some EU countries are pushing for the European Union's no-deal legislation to be more generous to the UK. "


Now watch the No Deal supporters extrapolating some proposed mitigation into "everything will be fine"!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> "everything will be fine"!


That's another soundbite!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46995337
> 
> "Some EU countries are pushing for the European Union's no-deal legislation to be more generous to the UK. "


Bizarre. I thought No Deal meant walking away without any agreement surely?

Or is there another side to it such as Soft or Hard Brexit or No Deal and walk away or a, "No Deal Deal"?

This is getting more stupid by the second.

Time to retract Article 50 and forget the whole thing, restore some sanity for heaven's sake.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Belgium Broadcasting Corporation anyone?
> 
> :Hilarious
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...onal-hq-belgium-brexit-netherlands-ireland-eu
> 
> View attachment 390009


Yipee. No more TV license (as all you pay for with the TV license is the crappy BBC channels). The Belgians would have to pay for BBC instead and get ripped off by the BBC's TV License.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Now watch the No Deal supporters extrapolating some proposed mitigation into "everything will be fine"!


The Lithuanian Leader (Dalia Grybauskaitė) said no deal would be better than an extension to article 50 as it would put an end to months of uncertainity and it would be a clean break for the UK. She is right you know. 

Note: I actually have a feeling the withdrawal agreement is going to pass through the next vote in Parliament as the DUP have secretly said they will back it and tlme members of the ERG (JRM and BJ) have said they and others may back it.


----------



## rona

stockwellcat. said:


> The Lithuanian Leader said no deal would be better than an extension to article 50. She is right you know.
> 
> Note: I actually have a feeling the withdrawal agreement is going to pass through the next vote in Parliament as the DUP have secretly said they will back it and tlme members of the ERG (JRM and BJ) have said they and others may back it.


As if that was never going to happen 

They'll think they've got the gratitude of the whole electorate and the EU too


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> The Lithuanian Leader (Dalia Grybauskaitė) said no deal would be better than an extension to article 50 as it would put an end to months of uncertainty and it would be a clean break for the UK. She is right you know.
> 
> Here you go .......
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/24...utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=special_cove


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Time to retract Article 50 and forget the whole thing


*NO WAY*


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Time to retract Article 50 and forget the whole thing







I took him on his word but he ran away and left a woman to pick up his mess. Luckily,a woman with guts, unfortunately a remainer


----------



## Dave S

I wonder who this was directed at from the Queen?

_"As we look for new answers in the modern age, I for one prefer the tried and tested recipes, like speaking well of each other and respecting different points of view; coming together to seek out the common ground; and never losing sight of the bigger picture."_

She may stay neutral but I bet she, like many are fed up with the way things are happening.


----------



## Calvine

No; nothing to do with 15% or 20%. Some seriously thought without EU there would be no travel to Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> No; nothing to do with 15% or 20%. Some seriously thought without EU there would be no travel to Europe.


Ahem, you surely mean within the rest of Europe?

Nobody said that but the automatic right to live and work across over 28 member states will end, something many Brexiters are in denial over rather than what you suggest.

Travelling across the rest of Europe will become akin to travelling to, say the US or Australia with 90 day restrictions and the likes. Probably become a lot more expensive to travel too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, you surely mean within the rest of Europe?
> 
> Nobody said that but the automatic right to live and work across over 28 member states will end, something many Brexiters are in denial over rather than what you suggest.
> 
> Travelling across the rest of Europe will become akin to travelling to, say the US or Australia with 90 day restrictions and the likes. Probably become a lot more expensive to travel too.


Last thing I read from the European Union was you'd have to pay £6 or around that for a permit to enter the Schengen area. This permit would last 3 years and entitle the holder to 90 days at a time in any European Country. Current rules in the European Union state you are only allowed to stay in a European Country for up to 3 months, if you intend on staying longer than 3 months you'd need to make yourself known to the Foreign Police within 7 days of arrival. You must be able to support yourself financially during your stay. Oh wait a minute 90 days is the equivalent to 3 months. Didn't you know that?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, you surely mean within the rest of Europe?
> 
> Nobody said that but the automatic right to live and work across over 28 member states will end, something many Brexiters are in denial over rather than what you suggest.
> 
> Travelling across the rest of Europe will become akin to travelling to, say the US or Australia with 90 day restrictions and the likes. Probably become a lot more expensive to travel too.


The usual little ray of sunshine aren't you?

Try reading these two articles

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46627083

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...fect-uk-travellers-flights-passports-currency

And this from the EU Commission

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/2018-11-26_qa_citizens_rights_en_0.pdf

And you never answered my question which was - "how many times a year do you travel to other EU countries"?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> The usual little ray of sunshine aren't you?


:Angelic


----------



## stockwellcat.

Before remainers start fear mongering about flights etc after Brexit the EU have activated their emergency no deal contingency plan:










The UK will remain in the open skies arrangement even in the event of no deal.

You might want to read this from the EU's headquarters: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm



> _Transport_
> 
> The Commission has today adopted two measures that will avoid full interruption of air traffic between the EU and the UK in the event of no deal. These measures will only ensure basic connectivity and in no means replicate the significant advantages of membership of the Single European Sky. This is subject to the UK conferring equivalent rights to EU air carriers, as well as the UK ensuring conditions of fair competition.
> 
> 
> A proposal for a Regulation to ensure temporarily (for 12 months) the provision of certain air services between the UK and the EU.
> A proposal for a Regulation to extend temporarily (for 9 months) the validity of certain aviation safety licences.
> The Commission has also adopted a proposal for a Regulation to allow UK operators to temporarily (nine months) carry goods into the EU, provided the UK confers equivalent rights to EU road haulage operators and subject to fair competition conditions.


----------



## stockwellcat.

France, Germany and Spain have announced that after the 29th March 2019 UK passport holders must have at least six months left on their passport to travel there otherwise you won't be allowed to travel to these countries. So renew your passport now is the advice if you have less than 6 months left on your UK passport.


----------



## Elles

I already linked an article that explained how technically Brits who live in their holiday/second homes in France for over 3 months of the year without taking the necessary steps are acting illegally. So there are already restrictions in place. 

These restrictions are what Remainers would quote when saying that we already have controls of our borders and EU citizens wanting to stay here more than 3 months have to support themselves, have jobs etc. They don’t seem to realise restrictions apply to them too if they want to move to somewhere else in Europe. Freedom of movement is a myth.


----------



## Magyarmum

*Residence & Registration*
*How to become resident in Hungary*
If you wish to become resident in Hungary, you must apply for a residence permit at the local Immigration office before your visa expires (Non-EU citizens) or you have to apply for a Registration Card (EU citizens) . Proof of your ability to earn a living in Hungary and a current status of legal residence are required to obtain a permit.









A Residence Permit or Registration card gives a foreign citizen the right both to reside in and to travel to and from Hungary. Together with an Address Registration Card, it acts as your documentation for legal residence during your stay in Hungary. If you are moving to Hungary with family, you and your partner, plus any children who will be relocating with you, will need to apply for the Residence Permit.

Usually, a Residence Permit is valid for one year only. This is depended on the requirement of obtaining a work permit for Hungary. For instance, there are exceptions for certain EU-nationals (see below). Once you have a valid Residence Permit and Address Card, you can then apply for a Tax card and a Social Security Card.

Usually, a Residence Permit is valid until the Work permit is valid. Once you have a valid Residence Permit and Address Card, you can then apply for a Tax card and a Social Security Card.

*For EU citizens*
From 1 July 2007 instead of receiving a Residence Permit, a Registration Card will be issued for you for unlimited period of time (without reference to the fact that you are required or not to obtain a work permit), so as long as you have a continual status (working, studying, etc.) in Hungary you do not need to apply for a new one.

Whether you need a work permit or not depends on the bilateral agreements between your home country and Hungary (read our article "Working in Hungary" for detailed information).

You will need to provide proof of accommodation, employment and the ability to cover you and your family's costs during your stay in Hungary.

In case all necessary documents are collected the Registration Card will be issued at once at the Immigration Office. Once you get the Registration Card the Immigration Office will post your Address Card to you.

It is important that your Registration Card is valid only together with your Address Card and Passport!

*For non-EU citizens*
In the first year you will get a Visa at the Consulate which you can travel into Hungary with. This Visa is valid for 30 days from the date you entered the Schengen Area. During this period you will need to go to the Hungarian Immigration Office in person to receive the final Schengen Residence Permit and to arrange the Address Registration too.

From the second year Non-EU citizens can obtain a residence permit at the Hungarian Immigration Office. You need to prove your employment (Work permit and labour agreement/employment contract) and your accommodation (i.e. rental agreement). The process can take up to 30 days.

*Immigration Card*
The Immigration Card can be obtained someone who:


has been residing continuously in Hungary for at least 3 years and;
has not been absent from Hungary for more than 90 days annually and is currently residing in Hungary.
The following people can apply for an immigration card already after one year:


People of Hungarian origin or those who have/had Hungarian relatives (e.g. their parents, grandparents were Hungarian citizens - even for a short period)
People who are married to a Hungarian citizen or a foreigner holding a Hungarian immigration card (who must have been married for at least 2 years)
The process can take up to six months, as the authorities check the submitted documents, the status of employment, the means of subsistence and the accommodation of the applicant. During this 6-month process the applicant also can be called in for a national security check up.[/QUOTE]


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> France, Germany and Spain have announced that after the 29th March 2019 UK passport holders must have at least six months left on their passport to travel there otherwise you won't be allowed to travel to these countries. So renew your passport now is the advice if you have less than 6 months left on your UK passport.


I thought this has always been the case - needing 6 months left on passport to enter any country. Darn it I didn`t go on a quick but free jolly to Italy because I had less than 6 months on passport


----------



## Arnie83

The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.

I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I already linked an article that explained how technically Brits who live in their holiday/second homes in France for over 3 months of the year without taking the necessary steps are acting illegally. So there are already restrictions in place.
> 
> These restrictions are what Remainers would quote when saying that we already have controls of our borders and EU citizens wanting to stay here more than 3 months have to support themselves, have jobs etc. They don't seem to realise restrictions apply to them too if they want to move to somewhere else in Europe. Freedom of movement is a myth.


You are right about the responsibility about supporting oneself and finding work. Something the UK government overlooked through their incompetence yet blame the EU for it.

However, work permits are currently not required. Having relations living in other EU countries I could go over and work which is something I would have done if I was unemployed in the UK. Casual work like cleaning or bar work. No shame in doing that in order to make a living.

Yet the option to do this will be removed for so many.

It's certainly a myth for Brexiters who believe existing rights for them will be maintained. "Out is out", they chant.

That may also mean, " Out of the EU" for many UK immigrants who live in superior climates in a tit-for-tat fashion when Queen Theresa starts deporting who she calls the, "Queue jumpers".


----------



## Elles

If it brings about an end to live export it will be worth the slight inconvenience. I don’t think it will though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.
> 
> I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


You like other remainers are missing the point. You will still be able to roam around after Brexit. You buy a £6 permit that lasts 3 years and use that. The EU was planning to bring in this permit anyway and Brexit has sped up the process.

If you want to remain in another European Country after 90 days you have to go through the process with the Foreign Police or relevant authorities to get a residence permit. Procedures are virtually the same in any other European Countries, police checks, certificate checks etc. To get a job you need a valid passport, residence permit and tax and social security registration, bank account and a tenancy after going through police checks etc.

Remainers are very misguided if they think they can just walk into another European Country and get a job or retire. There are procedures that nees following first.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.
> 
> I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


Seconded. Absolutely spot on to how I feel and many others too.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.
> 
> I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


I'm confused as to how you can't move around within the UK? Am I missing something? (sorry if you have mentioned it earlier)


----------



## kimthecat

Im a bit late to the party  Erm, going back a bit , @KittenKong posted a tweet from a very angry dad who accused a bank or similar of racism because his mixed race daughter was asked if she was born in the UK . 
The man might have felt justified at the time but he should have checked first before stirring up trouble. There's genuine nasty racism with out there and it detracts from that and by crying wolf, it trivialises it.
I found this when clearing up my clutter , it shows that everybody is asked the question of their nationality,


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.
> 
> I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


I don't know whether you ever lived in another EU country, but if you have then you'd know that when you're asked what nationality you are - which happens fairly frequently - you tell people that you're British.

You don't tell them you're a European"


----------



## noushka05

Climate deniers favourite James Delingpole making an absolute tit of himself as per:Hilarious

James Melville: _James Delingpole's humiliatingly clueless performance on #thisweek 
is the best ever advert for avoiding a no-deal Brexit. _
_




_


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The whole movement thing for me is not about the cost or hassle; it's my loss of freedom, my loss of citizenship.
> 
> I've never been to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I know I can, at any time, with no questions asked. After Brexit I can no longer roam around as I wish. I must get permission to do so. I am no longer European because, even though the Europeans were happy to have me, British people voted to remove my citizenship.


Germans define themselves as German
Dutch define themselves as Dutch
French define themselves as French
Spainish define themselves as Spainish
UK citizens (Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales) define themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or Irish collectively recognised as British.

Being European is not a nationality it is a collective recognition. You will still be a European citizen when the UK leaves the EU and your nationality British but the UK will not be a member of the EU.


----------



## noushka05

Anyone think James has nailed it?

*James Melville:*

_Here's how this will play out:

Theresa May gets a deal (without a backstop) through Parliament (but a deal that hasn't been agreed by the EU)

Therefore:

1. The EU compromise on the Withdrawal Agreement or

2. The EU don't agree and then May blames a no-deal Brexit on them._

...........


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm confused as to how you can't move around within the UK? Am I missing something? (sorry if you have mentioned it earlier)


Sorry, didn't make myself clear. I can still roam freely around the UK, but it changes with regard to the rest of the EU.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Germans define themselves as German
> Dutch define themselves as Dutch
> French define themselves as French
> Spainish define themselves as Spainish
> UK citizens (Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) define themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish collectively recognised as British.
> 
> Being European is not a nationality it is a collective recognition. You will still be European citizen when the UK leaves the EU and your nationality British but the UK will not be a member of the EU.


If you live in Africa (as I have) then you're automatically thought of as a European, purely by the colour of your skin and looks, as opposed to being Indian, African, Chinese etc


----------



## stockwellcat.

Deleted.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, didn't make myself clear. I can still roam freely around the UK, but it changes with regard to the rest of the EU.


No it doesn't.
You buy a £6 permit and then you are free to roam around Europe (with your valid passport which you currently need anyway) for 3 years before needing to renew it and you can come and go as you please. Remember the EU rules though that if you want to stay in another European Country for longer than 90 days (3 months) you need to make yourself know to the Foreign Police or relavent authorities to get a residence permit and you must be able to support yourself financially. To be able to work or retire in another European Country you need a residence permit as well by the way.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, didn't make myself clear. I can still roam freely around the UK, but it changes with regard to the rest of the EU.


Well you could never really roam freely, had to take your passport with you. Don't have to do that when you bob over to Leicester, London, Newcastle or any other city in the UK for a day.


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> Well you could never really roam freely, had to take your passport with you. Don't have to do that when you bob over to Leicester, London, Newcastle or any other city in the UK for a day.


You don't need a passport to travel to Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales either from anywhere in the UK.


----------



## Elles

However do you need one to visit Cornwall.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> However do you need one to visit Cornwall.


Not if, like me, you have a son with a boat, who smuggles you into Falmouth in the middle of the night!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I don't know whether you ever lived in another EU country, but if you have then you'd know that when you're asked what nationality you are - which happens fairly frequently - you tell people that you're British.
> 
> You don't tell them you're a European"


I probably would say British, or maybe English. (A Scottish person might have British in second place!)

All that does for me, though, is describe a factual administrative arrangement. It doesn't describe how I feel. I appreciate that others feel differently.


----------



## Jesthar

3dogs2cats said:


> I thought this has always been the case - needing 6 months left on passport to enter any country. Darn it I didn`t go on a quick but free jolly to Italy because I had less than 6 months on passport


No, if your country is a member of the EU, then within EU countries you only need enough time left on your passport to cover the duration of your trip. Post Brexit UK citizens will revert to needing six months or you'll be turned back at the border.

Wonder how many Costa Del Boozeup bound Brits will get an unexpected sobering up in this regard this summer - could be some popcorn-worthy moments, especially after all the extra queing for border checks in the first place... 



stockwellcat. said:


> You like other remainers are missing the point. You will still be able to roam around after Brexit. You buy a £6 permit that lasts 3 years and use that


Technically, you pay to APPLY for the permit. Your application doesn't have to be accepted - first hand experience of this with the US ESTA with a simple typo on the form of a travelling companion. Thankfully the resubmission went through automatically - you have to pay again, of course. If it's not, it can take weeks to process (which will be the same with the EU permit, according to reports), and can still end with rejection.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Technically, you pay to APPLY for the permit. Your application doesn't have to be accepted - first hand experience of this with the US ESTA with a simple typo on the form of a travelling companion. Thankfully the resubmission went through automatically - you have to pay again, of course. If it's not, it can take weeks to process (which will be the same with the EU permit, according to reports), and can still end with rejection.


The EU was going to introduce the permit anyway for any country not in the Schengen area so UK citizens and Irish Citizens would have to apply anyway (as the UK and Ireland are not in the Schegen Zone) with or without Brexit happening. All Brexit has done is sped up the process for the permit to be in place. The permit only gives you access to the Schengen Area for 3 years so you can enter and leave any European country without having to reapply for the permit for 3 years. You still would need your valid passport to enter and leave any European Country.

The EU was planning to introduce this permit/visa for any country outside of the Schengen Area but within the European Union.


----------



## Arnie83

Just seen Mark Francois on the BBC news talking about Tom Enders - the chief exec of Airbus who warned yesterday about a No Deal Brexit. 

Francois called it "Teutonic arrogance", said his father was in Dunkirk and that Enders should understand that Britain wouldn't be bullied by Germans.

He is exactly the sort of Brexiteer for which I have absolutely no respect whatsoever.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU was going to introduce the permit anyway for any country not in the Schengen area so UK citizens and Irish Citizens would have to apply anyway (as the UK and Ireland are not in the Schegen Zone) with or without Brexit happening. All Brexit has done is sped up the process for the permit to be in place. The permit only gives you access to the Schengen Area for 3 years so you can enter and leave any European country without having to reapply for the permit for 3 years. You still would need your valid passport to enter and leave any European Country.
> 
> The EU was planning to introduce this permit/visa for any country outside of the Schengen Area but within the European Union.


I can't find any sources that say an EU Member Country citizen would have to apply for a permit even if their country was not in Schengen.

The general definition I seem to find is that anyone on an approved list of non-EU countries who don't need visas would now need to apply for one.

If you have a source to the contrary, I'd welcome seeing it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> I can't find any sources that say an EU Member Country citizen would have to apply for a permit even if their country was not in Schengen.
> 
> The general definition I seem to find is that anyone on an approved list of non-EU countries who don't need visas would now need to apply for one.
> 
> If you have a source to the contrary, I'd welcome seeing it.


Absolutely be happy to enlighten you on this. This is all about the Schegen Visa and Schegen area: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/schengen_visa_en

https://www.eurovisa.info

As you can see the UK and Ireland are not in the Schegen area so the Schegen Visa will apply to Ireland and the UK and Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I probably would say British, or maybe English. (A Scottish person might have British in second place!)
> 
> All that does for me, though, is describe a factual administrative arrangement. It doesn't describe how I feel. I appreciate that others feel differently.


No I do understand. I'm very proud of the fact that in my immediate family, I have a French, a South African and a Scottish DIL. And of my four grandchildren, one English, one French, one British, but who, had she been born a month later would have been Australian and one South African who tells me he's not, European like his cousins but an African because that's the continent he was born in!


----------



## Elles

I play mmos. When asked where I’m from, I say U.K. People in mainland Europe usually say Eu. Americans say NA China etc say Asia, Australia, New Zealand say Oceanic or just the country. This is because of how it relates to the game, time zones (when you’re likely to be playing) and that kind of thing, rather than some tribal or emotional link to your roots, or heritage.  So it also depends on the context of the question. 

Sometimes someone might say to me ‘are you Eu?’ I used to answer ‘No, sorry, English’. Now I say, ‘Not for much longer’ A brexit discussion usually follows. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Don't make me get my hands dirty you slags, says Queen*
25th January 2019









*THE Queen has warned that if she has to step in and sort out this whole Brexit mess then Britain will bloody well know about it.*

Her Majesty has issued politicians with a vague threat to "seek out common ground" which, she clarified, means they have one month before she starts banging heads together.

The matriarch of the family known as 'The Firm' said: "I've never balked at my ceremonial role. But force me to act, and things could get a little bit nasty.

"Suspend Parliament? More like dissolved for good, and every single one of those useless bastards locked up at My Pleasure. Stripping of citizenship to follow.

"As commander in chief of the armed forces, I'll head a 'delegation' to Brussels to get us what we need. We'll be tooled up, naturally.

"And as supreme governor of the Church of England, anyone who tries standing in my way goes straight to hell. I bet you didn't know I could do that, but I can.

"After that you can have your 'democracy' back. Once you've been reminded who's the daddy round here."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> No I do understand. I'm very proud of the fact that in my immediate family, I have a French, a South African and a Scottish DIL. And of my four grandchildren, one English, one French, one British, but who, had she been born a month later would have been Australian and one South African who tells me he's not, European like his cousins but an African because that's the continent he was born in!


I don't know who my paternal grandmother was, so I could have very recent non-British ancestry. My DNA suggests I am 72% Scandinavian. And if I go back far enough I am African, just like the rest of us. "British" seems a very restrictive definition of who and what I am.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Absolutely be happy to enlighten you on this. This is all about the Schegen Visa and Schegen area: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/schengen_visa_en
> 
> https://www.eurovisa.info
> 
> As you can see the UK and Ireland are not in the Schegen area so the Schegen Visa will apply to Ireland and the UK and Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary.


Thank you, I found this information 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/apply-from-uk/

"Although the United Kingdom is not a member of the Schengen Area, British citizens can travel across Europe visa-free for a maximum of 90 days. Also, from 9 June 2014, all British Overseas Territories citizens (BOTCs), British Overseas citizens (BOCs), British Protected Persons (BPPs), and British Subjects (BS) are allowed to travel visa free to the EU Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days."

"UK passport holders will not need to get short-stay visas before heading to any of the Schengen member states upon Brexit, if the UK does not impose short stay visa requirements on EU citizens either."

"Britons Will Need to Apply for ETIAS for Traveling to EU after Brexit. Britons will fall under the EU's list of third world countries, after Brexit finally takes place. Less than four months away from the date this happens, the European Commission has given its final confirmation that UK nationals will need to pay to enter the EU countries for short-stay visits"

So, we don't need visas/permits now, and we wonn't need visas after (providing we agree the same for EU nationals in the UK), but we will need a permit. We would NOT need a permit as long as we were an EU member, same as we don't need a visa.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No it doesn't.
> You buy a £6 permit and then you are free to roam around Europe (with your valid passport which you currently need anyway) for 3 years before needing to renew it and you can come and go as you please. Remember the EU rules though that if you want to stay in another European Country for longer than 90 days (3 months) you need to make yourself know to the Foreign Police or relevant authorities to get a residence permit and you must be able to support yourself financially. To be able to work or retire in another European Country you need a residence permit as well by the way.


You're a fine one to talk seeing you'll still get to roam around the EU for free!

You forget the rights of people in the UK living in other EU countries depends on Theresa May. Spain, for example, said UK citizens already there will be ok as long as TM agrees the same for Spanish citizens.

So far that looks most unlikely that May will agree to this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You're a fine one to talk seeing you'll still get to roam around the EU for free!


I'll ignore this dig at me. For the millionth time I have a UK passport like you have 


> You forget the rights of people in the UK living in other EU countries depends on Theresa May.


No. It depends on what Parliament agree.


Spoiler



European Countries not EU Countries


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You're a fine one to talk seeing you'll still get to roam around the EU for free!
> 
> You forget the rights of people in the UK living in other EU countries depends on Theresa May. Spain, for example, said UK citizens already there will be ok as long as TM agrees the same for Spanish citizens.
> 
> So far that looks most unlikely that May will agree to this.


That's just Spain playing funny b*****s! Sabre rattling!

For the umpteenth time I've explained that the fate of expats lie in the hands of the government of the country in which they live and not on Theresa May!.

I'm not sure why you keep harping back to this but it seems to be an obsession that you can't let go off!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> No, if your country is a member of the EU, then within EU countries you only need enough time left on your passport to cover the duration of your trip. Post Brexit UK citizens will revert to needing six months or you'll be turned back at the border.
> 
> Wonder how many Costa Del Boozeup bound Brits will get an unexpected sobering up in this regard this summer - could be some popcorn-worthy moments, especially after all the extra queing for border checks in the first place...
> 
> Technically, you pay to APPLY for the permit. Your application doesn't have to be accepted - first hand experience of this with the US ESTA with a simple typo on the form of a travelling companion. Thankfully the resubmission went through automatically - you have to pay again, of course. If it's not, it can take weeks to process (which will be the same with the EU permit, according to reports), and can still end with rejection.


Thank you Jesthar, I never realised I could travel to EU country with less than six months on passport. Hopefully the boozed up Brits also believed they couldn`t travel with less than six months on passport or yes I can see some very irate moments at the airports!


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> No, if your country is a member of the EU, then within EU countries you only need enough time left on your passport to cover the duration of your trip. Post Brexit UK citizens will revert to needing six months or you'll be turned back at the border.
> 
> Wonder how many Costa Del Boozeup bound Brits will get an unexpected sobering up in this regard this summer - could be some popcorn-worthy moments, especially after all the extra queing for border checks in the first place...
> 
> Technically, you pay to APPLY for the permit. Your application doesn't have to be accepted - first hand experience of this with the US ESTA with a simple typo on the form of a travelling companion. Thankfully the resubmission went through automatically - you have to pay again, of course. If it's not, it can take weeks to process (which will be the same with the EU permit, according to reports), and can still end with rejection.


Not forgetting customs and excise as well.

They have a big shock coming to them.


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting customs and excise as well.
> 
> They have a big shock coming to them.


I've been ordering in items for my craft business I can only get from abroad in bulk these last few weeks - at least I can afford to, and I don't want to risk not being able to get hold of them when I need them.

I'll also be stocking up on cat food and some other essentials - nothing extreme, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


----------



## noushka05

Another brexiteer car crash interview - Tim wants to leave the EU because of EU laws too - then cant name a single EU law he doesnt like.

What a surprise..

Anyone else boycotting Wetherspoons? 

*Owen Jones *‏:
_I interviewed Tim Martin - hardcore Brexiteer, founder of Wetherspoons - about Brexit, and about why he paid his workers poverty wages. It was an absolute car crash





_


----------



## noushka05

Wow even some tories are waking up.

*Matt Chorley*‏Verified account:
_
This by @Tsar_Nicholas has exploded today. Everyone in the Tory party should read it. "The Conservatives are no longer a party of pragmatism, of science, of the economy, of opportunity. T*hey're now the party of ideology, of liars and cheats".*

_
*I'm leaving the Conservative Party and other liberals should join me*

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...y-and-other-liberals-should-join-me-k2rzc233k

*I*n October I wrote that the Conservatives risked losing moderates like me, that it was only a matter of time until a large number of members and voters, attracted to a party that drove through the legalisation of gay marriage and a general liberalisation of the right, would no longer accept the influx of Ukip and the far right.

That time has now come, or at least it has for me. Having witnessed Theresa May's pointless delay to vote on a deal clearly unacceptable to Brexiteers and Remainers, Boris Johnson's blatant lies in front of a digger at JCB, and the cries for talks by Conservatives that will be based on May's original red lines, I'm done. The Conservatives are no longer a party of…


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting customs and excise as well.
> 
> They have a big shock coming to them.


I doubt it! Considering some 17.8 million British tourists visit Spain each year Spanish customs would have their work cut out to go through all their luggage!

I read somewhere that the Spain was planning on having fast track lanes at their airports the same as the Portuguese are doing. Unfortunately I can't find the link, but here's the one for Portugal.

Oh and Portugal only has 12 million tourists year of all nationalities!

https://www.algarvedailynews.com/ne...-portugal-s-airports-for-post-brexit-tourists

*Fast track lanes at Portugal's airports for post-Brexit British tourists*


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Another brexiteer car crash interview - Tim wants to leave the EU because of EU laws too - then cant name a single EU law he doesnt like.
> 
> What a surprise..
> 
> Anyone else boycotting Wetherspoons?
> 
> *Owen Jones *‏:
> _I interviewed Tim Martin - hardcore Brexiteer, founder of Wetherspoons - about Brexit, and about why he paid his workers poverty wages. It was an absolute car crash
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


And it should be pointed out Owen Jones and his big buddy Jeremy C are staunch supporters of the Maduro, dictator of Venezuela!

Makes you wonder, seeing they admire the despot so much whether they both want to be like him?

http://www.cityam.com/272186/venezuela-humanitarian-crisis-and-british-left-just-laughs

*Venezuela is a humanitarian crisis - and the British left just laughs*

*







*

*The boy wonder so loved Venezuela!*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> And it should be pointed out Owen Jones and his big buddy Jeremy C are staunch supporters of the Maduro, dictator of Venezuela!
> 
> Makes you wonder, seeing they admire the despot so much whether they both want to be like him?
> 
> http://www.cityam.com/272186/venezuela-humanitarian-crisis-and-british-left-just-laughs
> 
> *Venezuela is a humanitarian crisis - and the British left just laughs*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *The boy wonder so loved Venezuela!*


What bearing does that have on the interview with the Wetherspoons man?


----------



## Magyarmum

-


Arnie83 said:


> What bearing does that have on the interview with the Wetherspoons man?


Quite simply because Owen Jones is a hypocrite and practicing double standards!

He says ...

*Owen Jones *‏:
_I interviewed Tim Martin - hardcore Brexiteer, founder of Wetherspoons - about Brexit,* and about why he paid his workers poverty wages*. It was an absolute car crash_
_
and yet he applauds and condones a man _who's starving and torturing his own people!


----------



## stockwellcat.

When the Government started giving out advice informing people to stockpile a few weeks back I had already started like 12 months ago. I always make sure I have plenty of stuff in any way, always have done.









The above picture is of my outside cold storage cupboard.



















































The above picture is ration packs. Got to order some more of those (as my dad pinched some). Now that Christmas is out of the way I have 2 more cupbaords to use as well. :Hilarious

Medications are well stocked up as well in case. But I always make sure I have plenty of everything anyway.

I have plenty of pasta and rice with 2 or 3 years useby date on them and most of the cans have distant useby dates as well. Being preppered for most eventualities in life is great fun.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> If it brings about an end to live export it will be worth the slight inconvenience. I don't think it will though.


 I know . . . especially when we read that India has banned live exports from all ports (allegedly).


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> When the Government started giving out advice informing people to stockpile a few weeks back I had already started like 12 months ago. I always make sure I have plenty of stuff in any way, always have done.
> 
> View attachment 390064
> 
> The above picture is of my outside cold storage cupboard.
> View attachment 390065
> 
> View attachment 390066
> View attachment 390067
> View attachment 390068
> View attachment 390070
> View attachment 390072
> View attachment 390073
> 
> The above picture is ration packs. Got to order some more of those (as my dad pinched some). Now that Christmas is out of the way I have 2 more cupbaords to use as well. :Hilarious
> 
> Medications are well stocked up as well in case. But I always make sure I have plenty of everything anyway.
> 
> I have plenty of pasta and rice with 2 or 3 years useby date on them and most of the cans have distant useby dates as well. Being preppered for most eventualities in life is great fun.


Your cupboards are ten times better organised than mine!!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> -
> 
> Quite simply because Owen Jones is a hypocrite and practicing double standards!
> 
> He says ...
> 
> *Owen Jones *‏:
> _I interviewed Tim Martin - hardcore Brexiteer, founder of Wetherspoons - about Brexit,* and about why he paid his workers poverty wages*. It was an absolute car crash
> 
> and yet he applauds and condones a man _who's starving and torturing his own people!


Fair enough, but it doesn't make Martin's views on the EU and the "benefits" of Brexit any less questionable.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

@stockwellcat. what the heck is in a ration pack, they look like soup packets so guessing you just add water?


----------



## stockwellcat.

3dogs2cats said:


> @stockwellcat. what the heck is in a ration pack, they look like soup packets so guessing you just add water?


Depends which ones you have. Some are ready made meals you can eat hot or cold.









































Or there's some you add water to:






























Plus there is other stuff in ration packs as well to help you through the day like tea, coffee, flavoured drinks, breakfast cereal, sweets, crackers, biscuits, powdered milk etc.

You can buy British Army Ration Packs, American Ration packs, Spanish, Lithuanian Ration Packs, French ration packs, Summit Ration packs etc online. Me being me opened them up and seperated the contents. The ration packs alone give me 156 days worth of food for one person.

One of the makers is now doing large cans of scoop and add water food at £39.99 per can which lasts 30 days each can.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

stockwellcat. said:


> Depends which ones you have. Some are ready made meals you can eat hot or cold.
> View attachment 390077
> 
> View attachment 390076
> 
> View attachment 390078
> 
> View attachment 390079
> 
> View attachment 390078
> 
> 
> Or there's some you add water to:
> View attachment 390080
> View attachment 390082
> View attachment 390083
> View attachment 390084
> 
> 
> Plus there is other stuff in ration packs as well tonhelp you through the day like tea, coffee, flavoured drinks, breakfast cereal, sweets, crackers, biscuits, powdered milk etc.
> 
> You can buy British Army Ration Packs, American Ration packs, Lithuanian Ration Packs, French ration packs, Summit Ration packs etc online. Me being me opened them up and seperated the contents. The ration packs alone give me 156 days worth of food for one person.
> 
> One of the makes is now doing large cans of scoop and add water food at £39.99 per can which lasts 30 days each can.


Thank you, I thought they were tiny, like single sachets of sauce etc, I see now they are bigger! Well should you get snowed in you will be alright


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> When the Government started giving out advice informing people to stockpile a few weeks back I had already started like 12 months ago. I always make sure I have plenty of stuff in any way, always have done.
> 
> View attachment 390064
> 
> The above picture is of my outside cold storage cupboard.
> View attachment 390065
> 
> View attachment 390066
> View attachment 390067
> View attachment 390068
> View attachment 390070
> View attachment 390072
> View attachment 390073
> 
> The above picture is ration packs. Got to order some more of those (as my dad pinched some). Now that Christmas is out of the way I have 2 more cupbaords to use as well. :Hilarious
> 
> Medications are well stocked up as well in case. But I always make sure I have plenty of everything anyway.
> 
> I have plenty of pasta and rice with 2 or 3 years useby date on them and most of the cans have distant useby dates as well. Being preppered for most eventualities in life is great fun.


Great to see your confidence in a no deal Brexit


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> Great to see your confidence in a no deal Brexit


I've got a stockpile of food too, which is just as well because I'm snowed in at the moment.

All Brexit's fault don't ya know?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Snoringbear said:


> Great to see your confidence in a no deal Brexit


See I am not the only one that stockpiles as @Magyarmum does it to. What is wrong with being a prepper or being prepared? Nothing to do with brexit.


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## Snoringbear

The concept of stockpiling has been brought up as a response to Brexit in the media. Great that you can do it, there are many families who can’t afford to.


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## rona

We are doing a bit of Stockpiling over the weekend, but only because we have a coupon that amounts to 15% off


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## Snoringbear

If you're interested in stockpiling, or simply purchasing ethical and sustainable groceries at wholesale prices I'd recommend this https://www.foodclubs.co/

Does require a collaboration of interested parties, but I'd highly recommend it once you're part of a group.


----------



## Elles

I’m not doing any. The shops will be full of stuff that people don’t need because they’ve stockpiled enough to last them years and have no room in their cupboards.


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> The concept of stockpiling has been brought up as a response to Brexit in the media. Great that you can do it, there are many families who can't afford to.


In my case it doesn't cost any more than if I were to go shopping every week, simply because this time of year as I'm usually snowed in, I can't get to the shops anyway and for that reason don't spend money.

So far this year I've only managed to get out once and unless the weather really warms up I doubt whether I'll be able to get out again until next month ... if then!


----------



## stockwellcat.

It doesn't cost me much more either to buy extra food and put it away.

I just wanted to state that there is a growing shortage of medicines world wide including Europe and the UK. I am simply just putting extra medication away as long as the experation dates on the medication are a year or so ahead.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I remember the stockpiling of 1981... hundred kilo of sugar under sofas... prepared for Russian intervention...
Sounds familiar?

Only we were not voting for that war...

So Brexit was to be the antidote for austerity?

And you are ready for lack of food?

Well done!!! 
Remember to stock cat food too...


----------



## KittenKong

Ever get the feeling you've been conned part 2?


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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2276877572541608


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## Magyarmum

QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1065375382, member: 1431226"]Ever get the feeling you've been conned part 2?
View attachment 390119
[/QUOTE]

It always pays to check your facts first!

https://www.ey.com/gl/en/services/t...-to-implement-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive

https://www.bna.com/brexit-agreement-allows-n57982093872/

*EU Reassured by U.K. Pledge to Keep Tax Policies Post-Brexit (1)*


----------



## Arnie83

A pity. Tweet from the European Medicines Agency.

*Today, EMA staff lowered the 28 EU flags and symbolically said goodbye to their London offices. Guido Rasi expressed his thanks to the UK for its contribution to the work of the Agency and for having been a gracious host of EMA since 1995.*










https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-brexit-thread.123823/page-1806


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## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook:

46 YEARS OF EU/EC MEMBERSHIP: 46 PROBLEMS BREXIT WON’T FIX

1. BREXIT WON’T make the economy grow faster
2. BREXIT WON’T help reduce unemployment
3. BREXIT WON’T protect our manufacturing base
4. BREXIT WON’T protect our financial services industry
5. BREXIT WON’T lead to better trade deals than we have now
6. BREXIT WON’T make our firms more globally competitive
7. BREXIT WON’T alleviate poverty
8. BREXIT WON’T reduce homelessness
9. BREXIT WON’T reduce teenage pregnancies
10. BREXIT WON’T reduce child obesity
11. BREXIT WON’T help combat drug abuse
12. BREXIT WON’T lead to a fairer and more equal society
13. BREXIT WON’T lead to a better funded NHS
14. BREXIT WON’T improve educational standards
15. BREXIT WON’T help maintain workers’ rights
16. BREXIT WON’T make the United Kingdom more united
17. BREXIT WON’T dampen demands for Scottish independence
18. BREXIT WON’T facilitate peace and harmony in Northern Ireland
19. BREXIT WON’T help protect the status of Gibraltar
20. BREXIT WON’T reduce violent crime
21. BREXIT WON’T reduce tax evasion
22. BREXIT WON’T help us combat terrorism
23. BREXIT WON’T reduce net immigration
24. BREXIT WON’T help us combat global warming
25. BREXIT WON’T make our beaches cleaner
26. BREXIT WON’T improve the quality of the air we breathe
27. BREXIT WON’T enhance consumer protection
28. BREXIT WON’T improve the quality of our food
29. BREXIT WON’T enhance data protection
30. BREXIT WON’T lead to better funded universities
31. BREXIT WON’T facilitate scientific research
32. BREXIT WON’T increase Britain’s global standing and influence
33. BREXIT WON’T help us combat US trade protectionism and America First nationalism
34. BREXIT WON’T help us combat Russian revanchism and cyber warfare
35. BREXIT WON’T restore our lost imperial greatness
36. BREXIT WON’T reduce xenophobia and racism
37. BREXIT WON’T enhance gender equality
38. BREXIT WON’T help combat homophobia
39. BREXIT WON’T protect and enhance the rights of UK citizens living in the EU, nor those of EU citizens living in the UK
40. BREXIT WON’T strengthen our democracy
41. BREXIT WON’T bring back our lost sovereignty (we never lost it in the first place)
42. BREXIT WON’T give us more control of our borders (we have never been part of the Schengen area)
43. BREXIT WON’T give more opportunities to the younger generation
44. BREXIT WON’T improve the lives of older people (who voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU)
45. BREXIT WON’T facilitate the renationalisation of the railways and other public utilities by a future Labour government
46. BREXIT WON’T silence patriotic remainers who are convinced of the overwhelming benefits of continued EU membership for the people of the UK

WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE STILL SUPPORTING BREXIT WHEN THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS LEFT?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> From Facebook:
> 
> 46 YEARS OF EU/EC MEMBERSHIP: 46 PROBLEMS BREXIT WON'T FIX
> 
> 1. BREXIT WON'T make the economy grow faster
> 2. BREXIT WON'T help reduce unemployment
> 3. BREXIT WON'T protect our manufacturing base
> 4. BREXIT WON'T protect our financial services industry
> 5. BREXIT WON'T lead to better trade deals than we have now
> 6. BREXIT WON'T make our firms more globally competitive
> 7. BREXIT WON'T alleviate poverty
> 8. BREXIT WON'T reduce homelessness
> 9. BREXIT WON'T reduce teenage pregnancies
> 10. BREXIT WON'T reduce child obesity
> 11. BREXIT WON'T help combat drug abuse
> 12. BREXIT WON'T lead to a fairer and more equal society
> 13. BREXIT WON'T lead to a better funded NHS
> 14. BREXIT WON'T improve educational standards
> 15. BREXIT WON'T help maintain workers' rights
> 16. BREXIT WON'T make the United Kingdom more united
> 17. BREXIT WON'T dampen demands for Scottish independence
> 18. BREXIT WON'T facilitate peace and harmony in Northern Ireland
> 19. BREXIT WON'T help protect the status of Gibraltar
> 20. BREXIT WON'T reduce violent crime
> 21. BREXIT WON'T reduce tax evasion
> 22. BREXIT WON'T help us combat terrorism
> 23. BREXIT WON'T reduce net immigration
> 24. BREXIT WON'T help us combat global warming
> 25. BREXIT WON'T make our beaches cleaner
> 26. BREXIT WON'T improve the quality of the air we breathe
> 27. BREXIT WON'T enhance consumer protection
> 28. BREXIT WON'T improve the quality of our food
> 29. BREXIT WON'T enhance data protection
> 30. BREXIT WON'T lead to better funded universities
> 31. BREXIT WON'T facilitate scientific research
> 32. BREXIT WON'T increase Britain's global standing and influence
> 33. BREXIT WON'T help us combat US trade protectionism and America First nationalism
> 34. BREXIT WON'T help us combat Russian revanchism and cyber warfare
> 35. BREXIT WON'T restore our lost imperial greatness
> 36. BREXIT WON'T reduce xenophobia and racism
> 37. BREXIT WON'T enhance gender equality
> 38. BREXIT WON'T help combat homophobia
> 39. BREXIT WON'T protect and enhance the rights of UK citizens living in the EU, nor those of EU citizens living in the UK
> 40. BREXIT WON'T strengthen our democracy
> 41. BREXIT WON'T bring back our lost sovereignty (we never lost it in the first place)
> 42. BREXIT WON'T give us more control of our borders (we have never been part of the Schengen area)
> 43. BREXIT WON'T give more opportunities to the younger generation
> 44. BREXIT WON'T improve the lives of older people (who voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU)
> 45. BREXIT WON'T facilitate the renationalisation of the railways and other public utilities by a future Labour government
> 46. BREXIT WON'T silence patriotic remainers who are convinced of the overwhelming benefits of continued EU membership for the people of the UK
> 
> WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE STILL SUPPORTING BREXIT WHEN THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS LEFT?


A lot of the good things on there would never have happened if we weren't in the EU and we will most likely loss them when we leave. Most our human rights the EU fought for will go. That's just what the tories want, so they trample all over us and there'll be nothing we will be able to about it.


----------



## Elles

So you’re saying that people who voted to leave the Eu were voting for many of those reasons? Whether leaving the Eu is the answer or not, that’s a pretty strong message to be sending to our government and the Eu. Maybe they would have thought people were perfectly happy with the status quo had remain won, when clearly they weren’t. The leave vote brought about an end to UKIP and brought the idiots out into the open, so that we can express our disgust, show they aren’t a majority and push for legal action to be taken against them where necessary. The leave vote could quite easily chip away at populism as the eurosceptics with less savoury politics lose the hook they’re hanging their coat on.

We don’t know if a government led by a leaver such as Boris :Vomit or Gove :Cat would be planning on putting a lot more money into the nhs when we leave either, because we don’t have a government led by a leaver who said they could put more money into the nhs. We have a government led by a remain voter who believed leaving the Eu would be disastrous and a parliament that agree with the sentiment.

You know what they say about Facebook. I don’t know whose page this list was on, but I’d be careful, unless it either has the opposite effect to what is intended by it, or encouraging leave voters is the intent.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> A lot of the good things on there would never have happened if we weren't in the EU and we will most likely loss them when we leave. Most our human rights the EU fought for will go. That's just what the tories want, so they trample all over us and there'll be nothing we will be able to about it.


People in the U.K. fought for those rights. Why do you think the people and parliament will accept our losing them?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> People in the U.K. fought for those rights. *Why do you think the people and parliament will accept our losing them?*


Do you really think that the PM and her cronies really care about anyone else but themselves.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> a leaver such as Boris


Only just a leaver . . . I seem to recall he didn't decide until a few weeks before the referendum which side he was going to campaign for.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> A lot of the good things on there would never have happened if we weren't in the EU and we will most likely loss them when we leave. *Most our human rights the EU fought for will go*. That's just what the tories want, so they trample all over us and there'll be nothing we will be able to about it.


If you believe that then perhaps then you really should read this ....

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...does-brexit-mean-equality-and-human-rights-uk

*What does Brexit mean for equality and human rights in the UK?*


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> Do you really think that the PM and her cronies really care about anyone else but themselves.


It doesn't matter whether I think that or not. The PM and her cronies can't just write off our human rights.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't need to read anything about the tories and their policies, I've grown up with them over the last 71 years, I know just what they stand for and it's not the normal working people and the pensions of this country, they'll screw what they can out of us and give to the rich.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> It doesn't matter whether I think that or not. The PM and her cronies can't just write off our human rights.


They'll have a damn good try.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Only just a leaver . . . I seem to recall he didn't decide until a few weeks before the referendum which side he was going to campaign for.


By leaver I mean politicians who supported the idea that we could give extra money to the nhs if we leave. Would they, if in power, give more money to the nhs after brexit. You're right about Boris of course, he didn't decide until later. I'd like to know what persuaded him, not sure if anyone has tried to analyse it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> People in the U.K. fought for those rights. Why do you think the people and parliament will accept our losing them?


Largely because the FPTP system will give us a Tory government for a while and neither the people nor parliament will have much of a say in the matter.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> By leaver I mean politicians who supported the idea that we could give extra money to the nhs if we leave. Would they, if in power, give more money to the nhs after brexit. You're right about Boris of course, he didn't decide until later. * I'd like to know what persuaded him, not sure if anyone has tried to analyse it.*


My assumption has always been that a change the size of Brexit was likely to bring with it change at the top of the Tories and of the country, and that the leading light of the Leave campaign would be in pole position for the job he's always coveted. And if Leave lost, then Boris would still have been a man of the People with a heightened profile, and in pole position for the next change!

His stance on anything seems to be determined by what is best for Boris rather than what is best for the country.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> A lot of the good things on there would never have happened if we weren't in the EU and we will most likely loss them when we leave. Most our human rights the EU fought for will go. That's just what the tories want, so they trample all over us and there'll be nothing we will be able to about it.


If threads like this are still permitted in five years time I wonder how many will be still blaming the EU for the loss of everything they took for granted?



Happy Paws said:


> I don't need to read anything about the tories and their policies, I've grown up with them over the last 71 years, I know just what they stand for and it's not the normal working people and the pensions of this country, they'll screw what they can out of us and give to the rich.


Indeed. it was a Labour government that introduced the Winter Fuel allowance and free TV Licences for the over 75s and free off peak travel on public transport. All now under threat by this rotten government.

I cannot understand how anyone believes the Tories care about anyone but themselves. Haven't they forgotten the elderly who couldn't afford to heat their homes were advised to wrap up warm and wear woolly hats?

Of course a certain 92 year old and her husband are exceptions of course...


----------



## MollySmith

This article feels like it was written about this thread and it's former guise
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...uncertainity-of-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## Elles

Nothing to do with Brexit, but I did have a chuckle at Rees-Mogg the other day. He was praising the right to buy brought in by Margaret Thatcher and how many people were able to get on the housing ladder ladder due to the policy.

I wonder what Mrs T would think if she saw the result today. Fewer houses having been built by following governments leading to homelessness and high costs of private temporary accommodation. And to add insult to injury, people delighted to buy their homes, giving them security not just for themselves, but for their children when they’re gone, having to sell said homes to pay for their care. 

So MT sold them a house which they paid for and then future governments made them sell it again when they were old to pay for health care. They might as well have just kept renting it to them. At least we’d still have council houses for the next lot. 

I don’t think this was Maggie’s intention.


----------



## KittenKong

Ever get the feeling you've been conned Part 3:


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Ever get the feeling you've been conned Part 3:
> 
> View attachment 390229


More scaremongering and disinformation!

How long has the UK's passport been burgundy? And when did Croatia join the EU?

Pull the other one!

*However, the newest EU member state Croatia refused to fully comply with the EU common recommended layout even though the Croatian passport has been changed in design due to the recent accession into the EU. From 3 August 2015, the new Croatian passport retained its dark blue passport cover and is the odd one out among the 28 European Union member states' passports*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Some thoughts on this.
> View attachment 390237
> 
> 
> The Brexit referendum has already seen the surge in support of SY-L and the far right.
> 
> Secondly, would she have suggested the UK shouldn't have declared war on Germany over the invasion of Poland in 1939 due to that upsetting dear old Adolf?


What ever his name is making a meal of it by reading too much into it .... that's not what she said!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...uce-Suella-Braverman-Nick-Ferrari-John-Healey

*BBC Question Time LIVE: Fiona Bruce hosts Suella Braverman and Nick Ferrari*
*BBC Question Time is returning to our screens from Winchester, with Fiona Bruce hosting former Brexit minister Suella Braverman and Shadow Housing Secretary John Healey.*

Suella Braverman (Image: BBC)
11:03pm update: "Get ready for Tommy Robinson MP"

Ms Braverman said that if Brexit is delayed we should "get ready for Tommy Robinson MP and the rise of the far right".

She added that this is not what she wants to see happen.


----------



## rona

.........................


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> .........................


He edited the post and inserted something else ........ sneaky!

This was the deleted post I was replying to .....
*
Francis Grove White said on Twitter

"Appalled to hear Suella Braverman threatening rise of the far right on #bbcqt. She claims if Article 50 is extended "prepare for a surge of Tommy Robinson and the far right". Since when do we take decisions as a country based on what Tommy Robinson thinks? Politics of the gutter.*

Inflammatory stuff me thinks?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 390245


What he failed to mention is that the definition of "unpaid family worker" is and I quote ......

*Unpaid family workers are people who work in a family business who do not receive a formal wage or salary but benefit from the profits of that business.*

Nothing sinister in it at all! Just shows his total ignorance!

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/can-spouse-work-llc-pay-77333.html

*Jointly Owned Business*
One way to ensure that hiring your spouse is both fair and legal is to make him a co-owner of the business. LLCs are registered at the state level, so you'll have to file an amendment to your articles of organization noting that your spouse is a shareholder, an officer or both. Business owners don't have to be paid, but making your spouse a co-owner makes him eligible to share in profits when your business becomes profitable.

For the January 2019 figures go to the UK Labour Market section on .....

https://www.ons.gov.uk/


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## KittenKong

LOL! She refuses to resign and is guaranteed to be PM at least until December.

Hopefully this disgusting party will soon be bankrupt!
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Grigori

Hello KittenKong. It is nice to meet you. I read this thread for days. Conservative party is never bankrupt. I read they bought coalition government DUP with money they took from citizens. If party need money they steal it from the citizens again. It is same in history and my country. Rich live off poor like parasites sucking blood from dog. Revolution is now only answer.
People vote brexit like same people vote Trump. Trump is national emergency.


----------



## KittenKong

Hi Grigori and welcome.

You're absolutely right of course. May is corrupt to the core utilising Taxpayer's money to keep herself in power in buying support from the DUP. How she's getting away with it I don't know. 

This kind of behaviour never used to be tolerated in the UK but with Brexit without the EU to intervene they can do anything they like which is a frightening prospect. No wonder many compare what's happening in the UK similar to what happened in Germany in the 1930s 

And with Trump: Brexit and Trump go hand in hand, neither were contemplated only ten years ago.


----------



## KittenKong

Martial Law anyone?
I predicted the return on the troops in NI and probably Scotland if they hold and win an "illegal" independence referendum, but the rest of the UK?

The papers will probably promote, "Our great British boys are looking after you".

No longer the image of the Bobby on the beat but a Tommy trained to beat...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/martial-law-plan-to-avert-chaos-after-no-deal-brexit-50zw9b9gv


----------



## KittenKong

Probably designed to damage Corbyn seeing this is from the Torygraph, but if there's any truth in this it's better late than never.


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit, but I did have a chuckle at Rees-Mogg the other day. He was praising the right to buy brought in by Margaret Thatcher and how many people were able to get on the housing ladder ladder due to the policy.
> 
> I wonder what Mrs T would think if she saw the result today. Fewer houses having been built by following governments leading to homelessness and high costs of private temporary accommodation. And to add insult to injury, people delighted to buy their homes, giving them security not just for themselves, but for their children when they're gone, having to sell said homes to pay for their care.
> 
> So MT sold them a house which they paid for and then future governments made them sell it again when they were old to pay for health care. They might as well have just kept renting it to them. At least we'd still have council houses for the next lot.
> 
> I don't think this was Maggie's intention.


*I have many times on here that i was one of those that purchased my house through right to buy. In my opinion the only decent thing MT did.*
*People say it was a bad thing, but in all honesty i can't see why anyone would not have done the same. The problem was, the government took the money but did not put it back into build new homes. Also at the time, many were encouraged to buy a home, start up small businesses, then what did they do, they had the interest rates go higher than they had ever been. So people ended up having to give back their homes. 
*


----------



## rona

Did yah see the list of highest tax payers in UK? 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47015517


*Stephen Rubin and family, £181.6m. *Majority stakeholder in JD Sports and owner of Pentland Group.
*Denise, John and Peter Coates, £156m.* Owners of gambling company Bet365.
*Sir James Dyson and family, £127.8m. *Vacuum cleaner and household appliance company.
That of course is also tax from his farming business


----------



## Arnie83

@KittenKong : Just my twopence worth, and not meaning to have a go, but I can't help but think that some of this is reaching the level of hysteria.

The Tories have always 'believed' - or professed to do so - that the riches of the top x% will trickle down and make everyone better off. It is nonsense, but since when has belief been trumped by facts?

There is also an element within the party who believe that the way out of poverty is hard work, and that the main way _into_ poverty is indolence. Osborne's quite deliberate demonisation of those on benefits illustrates that very well.

But their plan is likely to be the removal of what they see as unnecessary regulations and workers' protections. That is quite bad enough and is something we should all be wary of and guard against in the ballot boxes. Comparisons with 1930's Germany are not only unlikely to be taken seriously, but they will be used to dismiss not only the outlandish but also the far more likely downsides of an unfettered Tory government.

If we keep the warnings more moderate we stand a better chance of them being heeded, as they definitely deserve to be.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I have many times on here that i was one of those that purchased my house through right to buy. In my opinion the only decent thing MT did.*
> *People say it was a bad thing, but in all honesty i can't see why anyone would not have done the same. The problem was, the government took the money but did not put it back into build new homes. Also at the time, many were encouraged to buy a home, start up small businesses, then what did they do, they had the interest rates go higher than they had ever been. So people ended up having to give back their homes. *


Indeed. The Right to Buy policy certainly was a vote winner in 1979 and I'd be a liar if I said I was against it.

But Thatcher had sinister motives, her idea was to get rid of council housing altogether with such an attractive offer, hence no building programme resulting in the housing crisis we see today.

Also, many who took advantage of the right to buy were soon to be made redundant in the Thatcher mass purge in traditional industries. As a result many were unable to keep up with their mortgage payments with houses re-processed.

Those who were unfortunate might have been entitled to Housing Benefit had they not brought their home.

Of course the scheme was a winner for some who were able to sell their homes for huge profits.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> @KittenKong : Just my twopence worth, and not meaning to have a go, but I can't help but think that some of this is reaching the level of hysteria.
> 
> The Tories have always 'believed' - or professed to do so - that the riches of the top x% will trickle down and make everyone better off. It is nonsense, but since when has belief been trumped by facts?
> 
> There is also an element within the party who believe that the way out of poverty is hard work, and that the main way _into_ poverty is indolence. Osborne's quite deliberate demonisation of those on benefits illustrates that very well.
> 
> But their plan is likely to be the removal of what they see as unnecessary regulations and workers' protections. That is quite bad enough and is something we should all be wary of and guard against in the ballot boxes. Comparisons with 1930's Germany are not only unlikely to be taken seriously, but they will be used to dismiss not only the outlandish but also the far more likely downsides of an unfettered Tory government.
> 
> If we keep the warnings more moderate we stand a better chance of them being heeded, as they definitely deserve to be.


I hear what you say Arnie and I agree to a point, but everywhere you look others have made such comparisons, so I'm innocent on this occasion.

Talks of civil unrest and possible martial law reported in a Murdoch owned paper? Fascists like Steven Yaxkey-Lennon becoming normalised by some elements of the media?

Could this have been visualised five years ago in the UK?


----------



## KittenKong

From another Murdoch source...

















https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-planners-could-use-martial-law-against-civil-disobedience-11619088

Sounds like War time, only the UK has declared war on itself...


----------



## Satori

Grigori said:


> Hello KittenKong. It is nice to meet you. I read this thread for days. Conservative party is never bankrupt. I read they bought coalition government DUP with money they took from citizens. If party need money they steal it from the citizens again. It is same in history and my country. Rich live off poor like parasites sucking blood from dog. Revolution is now only answer.
> People vote brexit like same people vote Trump. Trump is national emergency.


----------



## stockwellcat.

What do you expect MP's to do in Parliament in the event of No Deal and civil disorder breaks out, sit in Parliament and do their nitting?

They have a responsibility to bring order to the streets of the UK like they did in the riots in 2011 (the army was put on standby then) and the army was on the streets at tourist places around the UK and Governmental buildings just last year, didn't bother me then seeing soldiers patrolling these places. Martial Law is a contingency plan that may never be used. If you read into it it gives Parliament sweeping powers for 21 days to change certain laws temporarily to bring calm back to the streets of the UK. You make a big whoha about the army and there roll post Brexit and to be honest it doesn't bother me as the police are over stretched as it is. But remember this is only ememgency planning and the army may never need to be called up. I do think you are in a state of hysteria @KittenKong which is coming across desperate.

You will find that the withdrawal agreement will more than likely get through Parliament on Tuesday and May will be dashing off to Brussel's to sign the withdrawal agreement by the end of this coming week. DUP and ERG members have said they will back the withdrawal agreement to stop remainers trying to scupper Brexit. It looks as well that there isn't enough backing for the amendment for a second referendum (a total of 70 cross party MP's have said they will back it and that isn't enough). If MP's don't want no deal they need to vote for this withdrawal agreement.


----------



## JANICE199

stockwellcat. said:


> What do you expect MP's to do in Parliament to do in the event of No Deal and civil disorder breaks out, sit in Parliament and do their nitting?
> 
> They have a responsibility to bring order to the streets of the UK like they did in the riots in 2011 (the army was put on standby then) and the army was on the streets at tourist places around the UK and Governmental buildings just last year, didn't bother me then seeing soldiers patrolling these places. Martial Law is a contingency plan that may never be used. If you read into it it gives Parliament sweeping powers for 21 days to change certain laws temporarily to bring calm back to the streets of the UK. You make a big whoha about the army and there roll post Brexit and to be honest it doesn't bother me as the police are over stretched as it is. But remember this is only ememgency planning and the army may never need to be called up. I do think you are in a state of hysteria @KittenKong which is coming across desperate.
> 
> You will find that the withdrawal agreement will more than likely get through Parliament on Tuesday and May will be dashing off to Brussel's to sign the withdrawal agreement by the end of this coming week. DUP and ERG members have said they will back the withdrawal agreement to stop remainers trying to scupper Brexit. It looks as well that there isn't enough backing for the amendment for a second referendum (a total of 70 cross party MP's have said they will back it and that isn't enough). If MP's don't want no deal they need to vote for this withdrawal agreement.


*You say that parliament have a responsibility to bring order in the event of civil unrest, well if they thought more about this country than they do, we wouldn't be in such a state. As for anyone being in a state of hysteria, i see it as facing up to what is going on.*


----------



## Elles

Just proves that the media like sensationalism doesn’t it. The army is always on standby and they train and prepare all the time. It’s just scaremongering from one side or the other. Fears of civil unrest and martial law = brexit or else, fear of queues, no food and medicine = Cancel brexit or else.

Looks like we’re stuffed either way.


----------



## KittenKong

A serious warning here, not "Scaremongering".

Having once forgotten to turn the mobile data off my £7.50 excess charge was used up within minutes of arriving in Amsterdam. This was before the roaming charges were abolished across the EU.

Had I not taken out the £7.50 safety buffer this could've cost me thousands of pounds.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Just proves that the media like sensationalism doesn't it. The army is always on standby and they train and prepare all the time. It's just scaremongering from one side or the other. *Fears of civil unrest and martial law = brexit or else, fear of queues, no food and medicine = Cancel brexit or else.*
> 
> Looks like we're stuffed either way.


To be fair, these warnings are generally from those supporting May's Deal over No Deal or those supporting No Deal over May's Deal (and no Brexit). The Remainers that are still brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet are simply pointing out that the deal we currently have, according to the government's own figures (and everyone else's except Minford) is the best deal available.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 390381
> 
> 
> A serious warning here, not "Scaremongering".
> 
> Having once forgotten to turn the mobile data off my £7.50 excess charge was used up within minutes of arriving in Amsterdam. This was before the roaming charges were abolished across the EU.
> 
> Had I not taken out the £7.50 safety buffer this could've cost me thousands of pounds.


It is scaremongering because the writer is stating that excessive mobile phone charges will be reintroduced after Brexit, something that is by no means certain, Needless to say it's couched in terms that the gullible will swallow hook, line and sinker sans question!

https://fullfact.org/europe/roaming...Vb-r-h5H3m0fmdUcDQ1eCsZi7QfZ8Ff8B6GaSBQhoCS-0

*Mobile roaming fees could be back after Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> To be fair, these warnings are generally from those supporting May's Deal over No Deal or those supporting No Deal over May's Deal (and no Brexit). The Remainers that are still brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet are simply pointing out that the deal we currently have, according to the government's own figures (and everyone else's except Minford) is the best deal available.


Yes, this crossed mind. "Back my deal or risk Martial Law", or words to that effect.

Even if May's deal is passed very few will be happy about that...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> It is scaremongering because the writer is stating that excessive mobile phone charges will be reintroduced after Brexit, something that is by no means certain, Needless to say it's couched in terms that the gullible will swallow hook, line and sinker sans question!
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/roaming...Vb-r-h5H3m0fmdUcDQ1eCsZi7QfZ8Ff8B6GaSBQhoCS-0
> 
> *Mobile roaming fees could be back after Brexit*


The focus word in all of the news articles quoted today is...... drum roll please..... that's right..... "could". Another words reporters stirring the pot of fear/scaremongering and deliberately making people (remainers especially) panic.

It won't happen.

TM will get the withdrawal agreement through Parliament and then all this scaremongering will be proven wrong. Once the agreement has been signed on to the next stage of talks, trade deal and future relationship. Then remainers will start a whole new round of scaremongering.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> To be fair, these warnings are generally from those supporting May's Deal over No Deal or those supporting No Deal over May's Deal (and no Brexit). The Remainers that are still brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet are simply pointing out that the deal we currently have, according to the government's own figures (and everyone else's except Minford) is the best deal available.


I'd agree with that, except remainers will often list worst case scenario/ couldn't happen even if we wanted it to/Armageddon in the case of a no deal brexit, then conveniently forget the 'no deal' part in their summing up. Even if I agreed with what they were saying about no deal, it most certainly does become scaremongering when they forecast it as any Brexit. If we get a deal, worse case scenario is that it's the same as it is now, but with little to no say generally. The U.K. will still have a say in what happens between the U.K. and the Eu of course.


----------



## Happy Paws2

*I'm getting sick to death of been tared as voice of DOOM just because I voted REMAIN, we are all entitled to have our say, without been attacked by the leavers, by the way that means the ones that have WON but feel they can be nasty. I've said before I think leaving is a mistake but I respect the result of the vote, I'll just have to live with with it.:Muted

YOU have won, it's not our fault that the PM can't get her act together and get Parliament to back with her deal.*


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> *I'm getting sick to death of been tared as voice of DOOM just because I voted REMAIN, we are all entitled to have our say, without been attacked by the leavers, by the way that means the ones that have WON but feel they can be nasty. I've said before I think leaving is a mistake but I respect the result of the vote, I'll just have to live with with it.:Muted
> 
> YOU have won, it's not our fault that the PM can't get her act together and get Parliament to back with her deal.*


Oh I didn't mean us, I mean the stuff that's in the news and on twitter etc. We're being told it's an unmitigated disaster by all sides, so I'm not surprised people are worried. Leave haven't won yet, they're barely a nose in front atm. :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I'd agree with that, except remainers will often list worst case scenario/ couldn't happen even if we wanted it to/Armageddon in the case of a no deal brexit, then conveniently forget the 'no deal' part in their summing up. Even if I agreed with what they were saying about no deal, it most certainly does become scaremongering when they forecast it as any Brexit. *If we get a deal, worse case scenario is that it's the same as it is now*, but with little to no say generally. The U.K. will still have a say in what happens between the U.K. and the Eu of course.


Sorry, but that is simply wrong. We will not be in the single market and business costs *will* rise. The best case scenario is that we won't be _much_ worse off, but worse off we will be.


----------



## Magyarmum

@Happy Paws

I'm sorry you feel like that. I think I can safely say that you personally have never been picked out as being the voice of doom. As far as I'm concerned everyone has the right to believe, and vote for, whatever and whoever they wish.

My gripe is against those who for their own five minutes of fame on twitter or in the media, distort the truth which is believed by the more gullible in our society who in turn continue to perpetuate the mistruth by word of mouth or on forums like this one

It's something I always have hated because it's insidious as well as destructive, and something I will always fight against be it over Brexit or some other issue.[/QUOTE]


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, but that is simply wrong. We will not be in the single market and business costs *will* rise. The best case scenario is that we won't be _much_ worse off, but worse off we will be.


*Ok i have to ask this question. Why do you say we will be worse off? Genuine question as i don't see how anyone will know until we try it.*


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, but that is simply wrong. We will not be in the single market and business costs *will* rise. The best case scenario is that we won't be _much_ worse off, but worse off we will be.


No it's not wrong. The worse case scenario is that we have a deal that is exactly the same as it is now, but we're outside the Eu so have no say in it. It's the worse case scenario because it makes the referendum and the past couple of years a complete and utter waste of time, money and energy and hands us over to the Eu. We may as well have just said to the Eu, we won't send any meps or vote on anything, because we don't want to have a say in anything, we'll leave it up to you guys and not bothered with negotiations before or after the referendum.

You're looking on worse case scenario as the one leaving us the worst off, which is a different worse case scenario. We should at least try to get something out of it and give some of the public what they wanted.


----------



## noushka05

Rayleigh in Essex rightly ashamed of their dreadful MP. Lets hope he loses his seat come the next election.

*Rayleigh, Essex*‏ @RayIeigh
_May we as a town take this opportunity to tell the rest of the UK how ashamed we are of having this xenophobic drongo as our MP

Mark Francois you are a cretin and we've had enough of your crap

_

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088890982811213824


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's a pity that people on here, keep copy things from twitter the press and that seem to stir things up.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i have to ask this question. Why do you say we will be worse off? Genuine question as i don't see how anyone will know until we try it.*


I could try putting my entire wage next month on a roulette wheel in case I win it!

Anyone in their right mind wouldn't consider gambling on the economy, seeing it was still recovering after the 2008 global crash.


----------



## Elles

Ah, just thought, maybe when I said ‘same as it is now’ maybe you thought I meant the same deal, ie TM’s deal. I meant same as it is now inside the Eu, but being outside it and paying a huge divorce bill and continuing to contribute, just to have no say in it. Of course this does mean staying in the single market too. For me that’s the worse case scenario and worse than leaving with no deal at all. Remainers may not agree.


----------



## noushka05

How sad & so unnecessary 

*Steve Bullock*‏ @GuitarMoog Jan 25
Steve Bullock Retweeted EU Medicines Agency

More than 20 years of cooperation and expertise willingly expelled from the UK.

For nothing. For much less than nothing.


*EU Medicines Agency*‏ @EMA_News
Today, EMA staff lowered the 28 EU flags and symbolically said goodbye to their London offices. Guido Rasi expressed
his thanks to the UK for its contribution to the work of the Agency and for having been a gracious host of EMA since 1995.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws said:


> It's a pity that people on here, keep copy things from twitter the press and that seem to stir things up.


*To be fair, i think both sides are getting a bad deal. If people want to stay, some that want to leave will moan. Likewise those that want to leave will moan. ME, i respect the fact that EVERYONE should and DID have a choice. I can honestly say, following what i have on this thread, i haven't got a clue who wants what. And that's how i like it. *


----------



## KittenKong

Seeing some Brexiters like to post links to the Daily Express, well if you can't beat 'em join them!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1078462/Brexit-news-martial-law-no-deal-brexit-eu-latest


----------



## Elles

Which brexiteers like to link the Express? We’ve already been discussing this over the past few pages.

ETA Oh, it was your link in the first place. The source of both your links is the Times. Sky and the Express are just copying what they read there. Do you read all of the gutter press lol?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Which brexiteers like to link the Express? We've already been discussing this over the past few pages.
> 
> ETA Oh, it was your link in the first place. The source of both your links is the Times. Sky and the Express are just copying what they read there. Do you read all of the gutter press lol?


He would never dream of reading the lowest of the low ........ The Sun ..... if it wasn't for the fact some of his colleagues at work leave copies lying around and he can't resist the temptation!


----------



## noushka05

Utter madness.

*David Schneider*‏:

2016: "I see no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" "Sunlit uplands"

2019:

*EXCLUSIVE: Armed forces have started stockpiling food, fuel, spare parts & ammunition at British bases in Falklands, Gibraltar & Cyprus as well as bases in UK in case supply lines affected by no-deal #Brexit*

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-begin...-bases-to-prepare-for-no-deal-brexit-11617564


----------



## noushka05

So much for taking back control!

*Mary Creagh*‏Verified account @MaryCreaghMP 5h5 hours ago
Withdrawal Act gives Govt Henry VIII Powers after Brexit. Now they want martial law to tackle food riots if there's no deal .

All because May won't face down Tory hardliners.
What a disgrace.


----------



## Magyarmum

News Thump
*
Friday 22 June 2018*

*If Airbus leaves the UK we'll just go back to making Spitfires, insists Brexiter*









*A threat to move operations from the UK to inside the EU by aerospace company Airbus has been welcomed as an opportunity to get back to the golden years of great British plane manufacturing.*

As Airbus executives explained that the risk of a no-deal Brexit means they have no choice but to consider moving 14,000 British jobs to inside the EU, threatening a further 100,000 jobs in 4,000 companies in their UK supply chain; though Brexit supporters have shrugged their shoulders and said 'so what'.

Brexit supporter Simon Williams told us, "We won, and Airbus needs to get over it and accept that the will of the people is that they stay here making planes in Britain.

"And if they still want to leave? Who cares. They make European planes, and all the best bits were made in the UK anyway. Let's just get back to making entire planes in the UK. When we did, they were the best in the world. Bloody marvellous things.

"We just need a bit of the Blitz spirit, and a few thousand spitfires rolling off the production line is all we need to make Brexit a massive success.

"I don't care if entire industries leave our shores because of Brexit, because at least I will have won. Precisely what I've won is currently unclear, but it's still a brilliant victory.

"Shut up, yes it is."

Economists have reacted with surprise at Brexiter responses to the Airbus announcement.

As one explained, "Oh, they want to go back to making spitfires? Well, that's good, because they'll probably be less likely to complain when we have to reintroduce rationing and they're being encouraged to grow their dinners in the back garden."


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy 15h15 hours ago
Enough of this madness.

Brexit is Fool's Gold


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏:

_Nobody ever 'leaves' anywhere forever without any clue about where they're going.

Brexit has now reduced millions of people to publicly pretending that they did precisely that.

No wonder they're so angry. Hopefully, they'll soon be angry with the right people._


----------



## stuaz

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i have to ask this question. Why do you say we will be worse off? Genuine question as i don't see how anyone will know until we try it.*


Initially (particularly if we have no arrangement with the EU) cost of some things will increase, how long those increases will last, remains to be seen but that cost will be passed onto the general public.


----------



## Elles

If we leave the Eu with no deal there may well be short term disruption, despite what European country leaders are saying about making sure there won’t be. £23m isn’t much for our army though is it? I doubt that would buy a ww2 ration pack each foot soldier, let alone ammo for them.


----------



## Elles

I used to work for a company that made turbines for RR jet engines. I think nearly everyone who works in Exeter has worked for them at some time. An American company. They paid better than Brit companies in the area. Wonder if they’ll move out.


----------



## noushka05

*James Felton*‏Verified account @JimMFelton 1h1 hour ago
2016 "We need to get away from the controlling EU"

2019: "YOU GET BACK IN BED NOW IT'S BEDTIME, DON'T MAKE ME SEND THE TANKS


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I don't think this was Maggie's intention


Are you sure it is The Shock Doctrine you've read and not a different book? If you've read it I'm surprised you still don't know Thatchers motive for selling our council houses to tenants.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Seeing some Brexiters like to post links to the Daily Express, well if you can't beat 'em join them!
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1078462/Brexit-news-martial-law-no-deal-brexit-eu-latest
> 
> View attachment 390410


There is the word ''COULD (again!!) introduce martial law''. At least they haven't shown us any pictures of soldiers in uniform in case we had forgotten what they looked like. Some of the papers are doing that.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> There is the word ''COULD (again!!) introduce martial law''. At least they haven't shown us any pictures of soldiers in uniform in case we had forgotten what they looked like. Some of the papers are doing that.


If we crash out without a deal do you not realise there *will* be food & medical shortages? You still don't realise it will have catastrophic consequences for our NHS which millions of depend upon on?

Do you really think people are going to sit back & accept it when they were promised unicorns & rainbows?

...

,


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i have to ask this question. Why do you say we will be worse off? Genuine question as i don't see how anyone will know until we try it.*


Taking note of what @Elles said, I was talking only economically.

If we leave the single market, then we will not be treated by the EU as a member of that single market. While we may escape tariffs through a customs union agreement - which is somewhat up in the air - we will not escape extra costs associated with our exclusion; checks, if not on all then certainly on some goods, delays at the borders and in the just in time processes that rely on completely free movement.

That isn't a wait and see prediction; the EU simply cannot allow us to have the same freedom of goods movement that we currently enjoy while avoiding the rules and the fees as we see fit. We would be a third country and will be treated as such, even if we agree a free trade deal with the EU, which won't be for a number of years.

And we will face the same, only bigger, problems with Services, from which we get so much of our money.

I'll point you at this - https://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/brexits-impact-services - instead of doing more typing!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No it's not wrong. The worse case scenario is that we have *a deal that is exactly the same as it is now, but we're outside the Eu so have no say in it.* It's the worse case scenario because it makes the referendum and the past couple of years a complete and utter waste of time, money and energy and hands us over to the Eu. We may as well have just said to the Eu, we won't send any meps or vote on anything, because we don't want to have a say in anything, we'll leave it up to you guys and not bothered with negotiations before or after the referendum.
> 
> You're looking on worse case scenario as the one leaving us the worst off, which is a different worse case scenario. We should at least try to get something out of it and give some of the public what they wanted.


I don't see how we can be outside the EU but with the same deal as now, unless you're referring to the Norway / EEA option?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Taking note of what @Elles said, I was talking only economically.
> 
> If we leave the single market, then we will not be treated by the EU as a member of that single market. While we may escape tariffs through a customs union agreement - which is somewhat up in the air - we will not escape extra costs associated with our exclusion; checks, if not on all then certainly on some goods, delays at the borders and in the just in time processes that rely on completely free movement.
> 
> That isn't a wait and see prediction; the EU simply cannot allow us to have the same freedom of goods movement that we currently enjoy while avoiding the rules and the fees as we see fit. We would be a third country and will be treated as such, even if we agree a free trade deal with the EU, which won't be for a number of years.
> 
> And we will face the same, only bigger, problems with Services, from which we get so much of our money.
> 
> I'll point you at this - https://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/brexits-impact-services - instead of doing more typing!


This is why The City fears Brexit... then secondary effects on all people who provide services for those employed in financial services....
Look at stock market, value of shares of UK companies in financial services.... huge drop across the board...


----------



## Snoringbear

If I ran across a motorway I “could” be hit by a car. I think think the odds are stacked against me, though. Also not worth doing if there’s nothing better for me on the other side


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> If I ran across a motorway I "could" be hit by a car. I think think the odds are stacked against me, though. Also not worth doing if there's nothing better for me on the other side


Well I was once a passenger in a car that skidded across 4 lanes of traffic in the rush hour before skidding back across the 4 lanes again and dropping 12 metres down a cliff and ending up at a 45 degree angle against a house.

A million to one chance of not being hit by other cars and being killed but both the driver and I ended up shaken but uninjured!


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏

_Things are going to get even uglier as many of the people who insisted Brexit would be beneficial & easy urge their followers to attack the people 
who explained why it wouldn't be.

The other bit of the latest grift involves the ludicrous lie that they somehow voted for 'no deal_

............................................................................


----------



## noushka05

A tragedy in two frames.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> There is the word ''COULD (again!!) introduce martial law''. At least they haven't shown us any pictures of soldiers in uniform in case we had forgotten what they looked like. Some of the papers are doing that.


It's very surprising such papers that promoted Leave so strongly are reporting this!


----------



## noushka05

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy
_Don't often agree with Philip Hammond but he's right no one voted for a No Deal Brexit. There's no mandate for the economic chaos, medicine shortages, lost rights, collapse in security cooperation and global isolation. The govt must now show some courage and rule it out #r4today_

*Daniel Finkelstein:*‏

_It's amazing how many people have persuaded themselves they actually voted not to have a deal. Something that they not only didn't say in the referendum but weren't saying two months go. The way the human mind works is fascinating._

*Steve Bullock:*

_
A large minority have been convinced by a very small minority of MPs, with media help, that the more damaging an option is, the better it is.

Millions gaslighted that bad is good, losing is winning, and something they'd never thought of before is what they'd always thought

..............................................................................._


----------



## Snoringbear

Magyarmum said:


> Well I was once a passenger in a car that skidded across 4 lanes of traffic in the rush hour before skidding back across the 4 lanes again and dropping 12 metres down a cliff and ending up at a 45 degree angle against a house.
> 
> A million to one chance of not being hit by other cars and being killed but both the driver and I ended up shaken but uninjured!


Glad to hear you escaped unscathed.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> So much for taking back control!
> 
> *Mary Creagh*‏Verified account @MaryCreaghMP 5h5 hours ago
> Withdrawal Act gives Govt Henry VIII Powers after Brexit. Now they want martial law to tackle food riots if there's no deal .
> 
> All because May won't face down Tory hardliners.
> What a disgrace.


Military action was taken against Czechoslovakia in 1968 and martial law in Poland in the early '80s following the rise of free trade unions.

Now Theresa May threatens martial law if we/they don't back her Brexit plan.

Did anyone foresee this when the Tories were elected in 2010?

I certainly didn't.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Military action was taken against Czechoslovakia in 1968 and martial law in Poland in the early '80s following the rise of free trade unions.
> 
> Now Theresa May threatens martial law if we/they don't back her Brexit plan.
> 
> Did anyone foresee this when the Tories were elected in 2010?
> 
> I certainly didn't.


That was my childhood, never thought my children might have the same...

In my son'd school teacher asked kids to write what is the biggest fear for young people now.
They wrote: Brexit- they fear Gibraltar will be taken by Spain, or parents will have no jobs and nowhere to go.

That is a reality for older children here...
They ask why it is done to us? 
Why no one cares?


----------



## Elles

Perhaps you could explain to them that there are people who care. What did the teacher say?

It’s better than being scared of nuclear war, the communists, a meteorite, or aids though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> That was my childhood, never thought my children might have the same...
> 
> In my son'd school teacher asked kids to write what is the biggest fear for young people now.
> They wrote: Brexit- they fear Gibraltar will be taken by Spain, or parents will have no jobs and nowhere to go.
> 
> That is a reality for older children here...
> They ask why it is done to us?
> *Why no one cares?*


Normal people and people who voted to remain care, it's UK government that doesn't. To many voted to leave not knowing what the consequences would be.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Normal people and people who voted to remain care, it's UK government that doesn't. To many voted to leave not knowing what the consequences would be.


Trying to explain it to my son, people were lied to ... 
My son asked why PM is allowed to lie?
Should government do something better?
Why they want to get rid of Polish people?
He obviously worries about his mum...


----------



## stockwellcat.

I care to.
How dare you think I don't. 
I care that much I voted leave because I care.

My harp strings are starting to wear out reading drivel from remainers. You don't know what it will be like after the UK leaves the EU. I am sick of reading "what if's", "maybe's" and "could's". Another words when using these words you are trying to stoke fear into people so they submit to your way of thinking.

No one know's what will happen after Brexit except the UK will be out of the EU. Plenty of countries thrive out of the EU (example Switzerland) so why can't the UK?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Trying to explain it to my son, people were lied to ...
> My son asked why PM is allowed to lie?
> Should government do something better?
> Why they want to get rid of Polish people?
> He obviously worries about his mum...


To be fair you want a PM to have lied. The one who said this is an important decision, you will only be asked once, the decision is final and whatever you vote for will stand. You know the one. Cameron. The people who want to 'get rid of Polish people' are the kind of people who when they holiday in Europe, Europeans want to get rid of.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> I care to.
> How dare you think I don't.
> I care that much I voted leave because I care.
> 
> My harp strings are starting to wear out reading drivel from remainers. You don't know what it will be like after the UK leaves the EU. I am sick of reading "what if's", "maybe's" and "could's". Another words when using these words you are trying to stoke fear into people so they submit to your way of thinking.
> 
> No one know's what will happen after Brexit except the UK will be out of the EU. Plenty of countries thrive out of the EU (example Switzerland) so why can't the UK?


Switzerland are part of the common market, which seems to be something hard line no deal brexiters reject.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't see what the problem is leaving a club of countries when the EU Leaders never wanted the UK to join the club we are currently in. 

Why do you think the UK has remained half in and half out for 40 odd years? 

Check your facts and history out before responding because it is true and might be hard for remainers to swallow that EU Leaders never wanted the UK in the Common Market, EC/EEC or whatever you want to call it at the time.


----------



## Snoringbear

Also part of the Schengen area so not the best example to use regarding leaving the EU and red lines.


----------



## Snoringbear

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't see what the problem is leaving a club of countries when the EU Leaders never wanted the UK to join the club we are currently in.
> 
> Why do you think the UK has remained half in and half out for 40 odd years?
> 
> Check your facts and history out before responding because it is true and might be hard for remainers to swallow that EU Leaders never wanted the UK in the Common Market, EC/EEC or whatever you want to call it at the time.


I'm well aware of de Gaulle's objections.


----------



## Magyarmum

All I can say is......


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't see what the problem is leaving a club of countries when the EU Leaders never wanted the UK to join the club we are currently in.
> 
> Why do you think the UK has remained half in and half out for 40 odd years?
> 
> Check your facts and history out before responding because it is true and might be hard for remainers to swallow that EU Leaders never wanted the UK in the Common Market, EC/EEC or whatever you want to call it at the time.


The more the reason to join. 
France was not that keen on Britain having a say in all matters and the power to impact most important decisions...
MT fought for it , Britain had allies in EU and had influence in shaping it ...
I truly regret it, because now it is Germany/ France domination which is not beneficial for the rest is of EU and EU as whole.

Britain madd EU better, the contributions to the regulatory functions were very important.

No Deal Brexit will have adverse effects on financial stability of our country.

From one of the most stable, solid and reliable business partners we will be where?
Among developing markets?

May Deal lives us more stable, but without the significant influence in EU we had.

Thanks to con artists like Farage totally irresponsible for what they promised.

Have ever lived in financially unstable country?

I did, I know over 100% inflation and what it means if you have a mortgage....

When money is replaced by direct goods exchange....

Very much like during the war minus the bombing..
G
Cigarettes, coffee and vodka were the most recognized currency...


----------



## Elles

People adapt. 

When we talk about the miners and Margaret Thatcher, we’re talking about the start of the new tech. Mobile phone bricks, PCs, satellite dishes, electronics. The jobs and opportunities becoming available in these areas were worth pursuing and those that did could make more out of it than those who picketed, yelling scab at anyone who went to work. Who wants to spend their whole life working down a mine, when they can do something else. I don’t want to dismiss the real hardships people suffered back then, far worse than today, but we have to move on. Look for opportunity where we can and grab it.

It makes me very sad that children are being told that there’s no hope and it’s making them fearful.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God, this is so typical.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2032389487054516&id=1777176712575796








There was also a video of a bigoted woman having a go at a couple for not speaking English in her glorious country

She told them, "If I was in Brazil I'd speak Brazilian".

Hmmm.... I doubt that very much seeing the idiot didn't realise people from Brazil actually speak Portuguese...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> They ask why it is done to us?
> Why no one cares?


Seeing that idiot who couldn't care less if his son lost his job because he voted out, "For him" it's proof most can't look beyond their own personal spaces.

To the outside world a typical English gent used to wear a bowler hat and carried an umbrella.

Now the image is football hooligan-like "Tommeh" chanters.

And the none experts, as they're no longer needed, believe firms will seek superior trade deals to what we had as part of the EU selling such an image?!

There's always the great British Dyson as an example of course. Wait a minute, they're no longer British...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seeing that idiot who couldn't care less if his son lost his job because he voted out, "For him" it's proof most can't look beyond their own personal spaces.
> 
> To the outside world a typical English gent used to wear a bowler hat and carried an umbrella.
> 
> Now the image is football hooligan-like "Tommeh" chanters.
> 
> And the none experts, as they're no longer needed, believe firms will seek superior trade deals to what we had as part of the EU selling such an image?!
> 
> There's always the great British Dyson as an example of course. Wait a minute, they're no longer British...


You don't seem to know much about the outside world do you?

Oh yes I forgot, your FOM has been curtailed so much you're not allowed to go anywhere any longer!

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/cu...odiest-battles-of-european-football-1-4854568

*Football violence : 9 bloodiest battles of European football*

https://www.bva-bdrc.com/opinions/how-does-the-world-view-the-uk-
following-brexit/

*How Does The World View The UK Following Brexit?*


----------



## Grigori

Hello Satori. It is good to meet you. But I do not know because I do not know your hero. I do not understand what you are telling me.
Also I read you are lifes winner. How is this possible when game of life is not over?


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Satori

Grigori said:


> Hello Satori. It is good to meet you. But I do not know because I do not know your hero. I do not understand what you are telling me.
> Also I read you are lifes winner. How is this possible when game of life is not over?


Hello Gregori. It is good to meet you too.
But know is tori. How your her. I do me.
Also now your her her. But knot is when gameet I do me wherstand what knot knot I do me.
Also now because over Hello not over. I do now you. But is whatori. I do not knot you are winner. I do now you aread you aread wing me over hen good you. I do not of lifes gameet you aread you are wing meet is winner. It knot know is good when gameet knot knot knot your How is whero. I re is possible is now you aread what you aread tello me.
Also me.
Also not understand


----------



## Elles

@Grigori @Satori 's picture was of Wolfie Smith. From Citizen Smith. A brilliantly funny sit com. Your post talking of 'citizen' and 'revolution' must have reminded him of it. It did me too lol. From wikipaedia.

*Citizen Smith* is a British television sitcom written by John Sullivan, first broadcast from 1977 to 1980.[1]

*Citizen Smith*


*Original release* 12 April 1977 - 31 December 1980
It starred Robert Lindsay as "Wolfie" Smith, a young Marxist[2] "urban guerrilla" in Tooting, south London, who is attempting to emulate his hero Che Guevara.[3] Wolfie is a reference to the Irish revolutionary Wolfe Tone, who used the pseudonym Citizen Smith in order to evade capture by the British. Wolfie is the self-proclaimed leader of the revolutionary Tooting Popular Front (the TPF, merely a small bunch of his friends), the goals of which are "Power to the People" and "Freedom for Tooting". In reality, he is an unemployed slacker and petty criminal whose plans fail through his apathy, ineptitude and inexperience.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't see what the problem is leaving a club of countries when the EU Leaders never wanted the UK to join the club we are currently in.
> 
> Check your facts and history out before responding because it is true and might be hard for remainers to swallow that EU Leaders never wanted the UK in the Common Market, EC/EEC or whatever you want to call it at the time.





Snoringbear said:


> I'm well aware of de Gaulle's objections.


Yes it was de Gaulle who didn't want us.



Elles said:


> People adapt.
> 
> When we talk about the miners and Margaret Thatcher, we're talking about the start of the new tech. Mobile phone bricks, PCs, satellite dishes, electronics. The jobs and opportunities becoming available in these areas were worth pursuing and those that did could make more out of it than those who picketed, yelling scab at anyone who went to work. Who wants to spend their whole life working down a mine, when they can do something else. I don't want to dismiss the real hardships people suffered back then, far worse than today, but we have to move on. Look for opportunity where we can and grab it.


And you think she did a good job, just so she could breaks the unions she wreaked so many lives. She sold off most the social housing and wouldn't let them build any new ones to replace them, that's why we have so many families living in B&Bs or living in hostels and split up. Yes the cow really did a good job.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't see what the problem is leaving a club of countries when the EU Leaders never wanted the UK to join the club we are currently in.
> 
> Why do you think the UK has remained half in and half out for 40 odd years?
> 
> Check your facts and history out before responding because it is true and might be hard for remainers to swallow that EU Leaders never wanted the UK in the Common Market, EC/EEC or whatever you want to call it at the time.


You think we should leave because De Gaulle vetoed our entry 50 years ago? That's overdoing the grudge-holding a bit, isn't it?

I think we've been half in and half out mainly because too many British people think we are special, and that it is demeaning to be part of an organisation where we are on an equal footing with so many other lesser nations.


----------



## Elles

New Labour built an average of 562 council houses per year. And Mrs Thatcher's Conservatives? 41,343.

While the Conservatives have traced the shortage of affordable housing back to 1997, in fact the number of new council homes began to flatline shortly after Sir John Major succeeded Mrs Thatcher as Conservative PM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You think we should leave because De Gaulle vetoed our entry 50 years ago? That's overdoing the grudge-holding a bit, isn't it?


De Gaulle's veto is a fact and history.

What I think is overdoing it is remainers thinking they can predict and see into the future. This is being counter productive, negative and spin as no one knows what will happen. Yes we have forecasts and predictions from people who are negative because they are trained to be this way and only see negative outlooks. In reality no one knows what will happen until after the UK leaves the EU.

Do you know what will happen tomorrow in Parliament? No. Nor do I but we can all speculate and make up theories etc.

Facts happen when an event has happened not before an event happens. I have always said this.

I have read theory up theory and prediction upon prediction about Brexit and what will happen when the UK leaves the EU. But all these are is hot air from people that are ardent remainers and cannot see past their own nose and can do nothing else but be negative and stoke fear into people to scare them into thinking the way they do.

Not having a go at you personally by the way @Arnie83 so there is no need to stick me on ignore like you usually do when you read something you don't like because it does not conform to your way of thinking.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> You think we should leave because De Gaulle vetoed our entry 50 years ago? That's overdoing the grudge-holding a bit, isn't it? *NO I voted to remain*
> 
> I think we've been half in and half out mainly because too many British people think we are special, and that it is demeaning to be part of an organisation where we are on an equal footing with so many other lesser nations.


That's trouble to many people think we are still a great nation and still have an empire, well get over it we aren't and we haven't got one.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> You think we should leave because De Gaulle vetoed our entry 50 years ago? That's overdoing the grudge-holding a bit, isn't it?
> 
> I think we've been half in and half out mainly because too many British people think we are special, and that it is demeaning to be part of an organisation where we are on an equal footing with so many other lesser nations.


Why wouldn't some feel that way when we're one of the countries who pay more in. I expect many of the the French and Germans feel special and superior in the Eu. People here might have felt separate from it, the Germans in particular seem to want to appear as a benevolent master, if we're going to generalise.


----------



## Elles

Why is always ok to go on about Brits? If we weren’t british ourselves, what would it be viewed as? Many people take pride in themselves and their country. By the time you’re an adult you’re a contributor to how it is. You may not be responsible for where you were born, but you are responsible for how it is where you live. So imho there’s nothing wrong in being proud of being British and of your fellow Brits, if you are part of what’s good about Britain. That is a choice.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> De Gaulle's veto is a fact and history.


I know it is. It just seems an odd reason to feel animosity towards today's EU. It's like Spain wanting us out because we beat up their armada.



stockwellcat. said:


> What I think is overdoing it is remainers thinking they can predict and see into the future. This is being counter productive, negative and spin as no one knows what will happen. Yes we have forecasts and predictions from people who are negative because they are trained to be this way and only see negative outlooks. In reality no one knows what will happen until after the UK leaves the EU.
> 
> Do you know what will happen tomorrow in Parliament? No. Nor do I but we can all speculate and make up theories etc.
> 
> Facts happen when an event has happened not before an event happens. I have always said this.
> 
> I have read theory up theory and prediction upon prediction about Brexit and what will happen when the UK leaves the EU. But all these are is hot air from people that are ardent remainers and cannot see past their own nose and can do nothing else but be negative and stoke fear into people to scare them into thinking the way they do.


So by your logic, the consequences of Brexit might be even worse than anyone is predicting. If we can't know the future, we can't assume that those predictions are too pessimistic, can we?



stockwellcat. said:


> Not having a go at you personally by the way @Arnie83 so there is no need to stick me on ignore like you usually do when you read something you don't like because it does not conform to your way of thinking.


Not having a go, and yet you manage an insult to finish it off. There are a lot of people on here who disagree with my way of thinking. I have none of them on ignore.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Why is always ok to go on about Brits? If we weren't british ourselves, what would it be viewed as? Many people take pride in themselves and their country. By the time you're an adult you're a contributor to how it is. You may not be responsible for where you were born, but you are responsible for how it is where you live. So imho there's nothing wrong in being proud of being British and of your fellow Brits, if you are part of what's good about Britain. That is a choice.


I just think the world would be a better place if we realised how much damage has been and is being done by humanity's misplaced pride in its various and wholly imaginary tribes.

For example, Trump is intent on Making America Great Again at the expense of the rest of the world, about which he and his supporters don't appear to give a damn.

We are being told to leave the EU because 'they' are holding us back and telling us what to do. Well one of the first things we could do is get over ourselves!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So by your logic, the consequences of Brexit might be even worse than anyone is predicting.


I didn't say that did I? There you go twisting what leave supporters say. Kills any debate when not just yourself does this. What you have suggested I said is not what I actually said.


> yet you manage an insult to finish it off.


It doesn't matter what I say you always will say I am insulting because I won't change my mind on Brexit. Oh well.

BTW I no longer have anyone on ignore.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.


----------



## emmaviolet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1089855008538062849
A Brexit unicorn, thank you very much. Courtesy of The Evening Standard.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> De Gaulle's veto is a fact and history.


But irrelevant. Should we still have it in for Italy because of the Romans? Or maybe the French for 1066 and all that. Perhaps we should even consider respecting the result of the referendum that said we should join the EU in the first place... 



stockwellcat. said:


> What I think is overdoing it is remainers thinking they can predict and see into the future. This is being counter productive, negative and spin as no one knows what will happen. Yes we have forecasts and predictions from people who are negative because they are trained to be this way and only see negative outlooks. In reality no one knows what will happen until after the UK leaves the EU.


You could say the same about a weather forecast, and they vary by source. But all the same, if the consensus is it's going to rain, I'm going to err on the side of caution and take an umbrella and raincoat. If it doesn't, bonus, but if it does, I'm prepared. That's common sense, not negativity.



stockwellcat. said:


> Do you know what will happen tomorrow in Parliament? No. Nor do I but we can all speculate and make up theories etc.
> 
> Facts happen when an event has happened not before an event happens. I have always said this.


Facts may not be facts even after the event. Any historian knows this 



stockwellcat. said:


> I have read theory up theory and prediction upon prediction about Brexit and what will happen when the UK leaves the EU. But all these are is hot air from people that are ardent remainers and cannot see past their own nose and can do nothing else but be negative and stoke fear into people to scare them into thinking the way they do.


If you choose to believe all less than favourable predictions (and it is not just Remainers who have predicted we will lose out in significant areas post-Brexit) is scaremongering, you are free to do so. In a certain way, I am impressed by your obviously ardent faith in that regard - you'd do many a zealot proud! 

Personally, though, I tend towards realism. Sure, I don't know exactly what will happen after Brexit, but I'd prefer to be over-prepared than under-prepared. I think it's fairly obvious by now that those who still believe in a 'sunlit uplands, no downside' Brexit are pure fantasists, but I can't force them to listen to the warnings and prepare for a rough ride.



stockwellcat. said:


> Not having a go at you personally by the way @Arnie83 so there is no need to stick me on ignore like you usually do when you read something you don't like because it does not conform to your way of thinking.


Now come on, that's a bit unfair - Arnie debates equitably with everyone who debates equitably with him, whether he agrees with them or not. Personally he gets my vote as the 'voice of reason' on this thread


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Not having a go, and yet you manage an insult to finish it off. There are a lot of people on here who disagree with my way of thinking. I have none of them on ignore.


Think this quote says it all really.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't say that did I? There you go twisting what leave supporters say. Kills any debate when not just yourself does this. What you have suggested I said is not what I actually said.


I'm twisting nothing. I am taking what you said and drawing a logical conclusion from it.

You complain about 'remainer' predictions, saying that no-one can predict the future, didn't you?

If that is the case, then no-one can know if a prediction will turn out to be better or worse than what actually happens.

So - logically - the predictions of 'remainers' might actually be understating that damage we can expect because - as you say - no-one knows what the future will bring.

One cannot state that remainers' predictions are overstating the damage while at the same time saying that predictions are impossible, because you are then predicting that the damage will be less.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Think this quote says it all really.
> View attachment 390574


And who exactly are these "many people" whom he seems to be implying, are inciting others to violence?

More scaremongering!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> But irrelevant. Should we still have it in for Italy because of the Romans? Or maybe the French for 1066 and all that.


Why not? Certain remainers are focused on Germany in the 1930's and dictators and at every opportunity drag the past up.


> Perhaps we should even consider respecting the result of the referendum


Now that would be a good starting point because some remainers never have.


> Personally, though, I tend towards realism.


And you are suggesting I don't?


> Sure, I don't know exactly what will happen after Brexit


Well now you have made that admission perhaps not just yourself but others can stop stoking fear into people because you and others did not like the way the referendum went and people actually want the UK out of the EU.


----------



## Elles

Generally if you look at rioters, particularly involving violence and looting, the public disorder that’s being suggested by some, it’s predominantly young males, under the age of 21 who are involved. As the young apparently want to remain, if we don’t brexit, it could be that rioting brexiteers will be a very small minority.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Why not? Certain remainers are focused on Germany in the 1930's and dictators and at every opportunity drag the past up.


Historically speaking there are certain definite parallels with the early 1930s - the trend towards nationalism, minorities and immigrants being unfairly blamed for economic and employment patterns, etc. I don't approve of the comparisons being used as a blunt instrument, but that does not in itself render them invalid. Historical patterns do have a habit of repeating themselves, hence the saying that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It would therefore be imprudent to dismiss the observations out of hand, even if they are not always delivered in a helpful manner.


stockwellcat. said:


> Now that would be a good starting point because some remainers never have.


Quote me correctly if you quote me at all!  I specifically mentioned the referendum that decided we should JOIN the EEC as it was then. 1975 was the year, if memory serves.


stockwellcat. said:


> And you are suggesting I don't?


I was speaking for myself, and no-one else.


stockwellcat. said:


> Well now you have made that admission perhaps not just yourself but others can stop stoking fear into people because you and others did not like the way the referendum went and people actually want the UK out of the EU.


*sigh* I said I don't know EXACTLY what will happen. I've never claimed otherwise. That doesn't mean I can't/shouldn't make educated guesses, or that I should automatically discount the viewpoints of others far more knowledgable than I am in their specific fields.

We all make predictions about the future every day - some more likely than others. If you have food in your house, for example, you are making a prediction that you will be home for an evening meal. Depending on what you intend to get up to in the day, that prediction may have a greater or lesser probability of being achieved. On a good day, no problem, although the exact time of the meal may still vary. Forget to fill up with petrol and it might still be accurate, albeit much later than expected after walking two miles to the nearest petrol station. Cross a busy road or two without looking, you might end up with hospital food instead. Drive the wrong way up a motorway playing chicken with the lorries, and I think we can agree that the balance of probability is you were rather overoptimistic with the evening plans!

Now, if you were to tell me you intended to do drive a long way, or jaywalk, or drive on the wrong side of the moterway for hoots and giggles, would it be scaremongering to suggest checking your fuel level, or point out the potential consequences? I would suggest not


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> @Grigori @Satori 's picture was of Wolfie Smith. From Citizen Smith. A brilliantly funny sit com. Your post talking of 'citizen' and 'revolution' must have reminded him of it. It did me too lol. From wikipaedia.
> 
> *Citizen Smith* is a British television sitcom written by John Sullivan, first broadcast from 1977 to 1980.[1]
> 
> *Citizen Smith*
> 
> 
> *Original release* 12 April 1977 - 31 December 1980
> It starred Robert Lindsay as "Wolfie" Smith, a young Marxist[2] "urban guerrilla" in Tooting, south London, who is attempting to emulate his hero Che Guevara.[3] Wolfie is a reference to the Irish revolutionary Wolfe Tone, who used the pseudonym Citizen Smith in order to evade capture by the British. Wolfie is the self-proclaimed leader of the revolutionary Tooting Popular Front (the TPF, merely a small bunch of his friends), the goals of which are "Power to the People" and "Freedom for Tooting". In reality, he is an unemployed slacker and petty criminal whose plans fail through his apathy, ineptitude and inexperience.


From a time when people in this country had a sense of humour and not a sense of outrage 



Elles said:


> Generally if you look at rioters, particularly involving violence and looting, the public disorder that's being suggested by some, it's predominantly young males, under the age of 21 who are involved. As the young apparently want to remain, if we don't brexit, it could be that rioting brexiteers will be a very small minority.


Haha, just imagine all the pensioners rioting


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Haha, just imagine all the pensioners rioting


_*What do we want???*_

Er, umm - hang on, it'll come back to me in a second...


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Haha, just imagine all the pensioners rioting


It would be very ''Hale and Pace'', all throwing their Zimmer frames at each other and whacking each other with walking sticks.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> From a time when people in this country had a sense of humour and not a sense of outrage
> 
> Haha, just imagine all the pensioners rioting


You want a riot? I'm on my way!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> It would be very ''Hale and Pace'', all throwing their Zimmer frames at each other and whacking each other with walking sticks.


Nah ..... far more subtle. I'll bring my dogs to bite ankles and I'll throw stink bombs, rotten eggs an tomatoes


----------



## Arnie83

Reported variously ...

*No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers*

A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to *higher prices and empty shelves in the short-term*, retailers are warning.

Sainsbury's, Asda and McDonald's are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.

The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by several of the major food retailers.​
More Remainer scaremongering predictions.

Note: 30% of our food comes from the EU.


----------



## Elles

“No Deal” prediction.

I would agree that ‘no deal’ is likely to cause more short term disruption than leaving with a deal. Especially given our current government's history.

About time we grew more of our own and encouraged seasonal produce, instead of buying produce grown under plastic in Spain. People have been going on about the environment and air/road miles, wastefulness and an obesity crisis. Maybe No Deal is the answer, if we’re forced to buy local and holiday in the U.K.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Reported variously ...
> 
> *No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers*
> 
> A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to *higher prices and empty shelves in the short-term*, retailers are warning.
> 
> Sainsbury's, Asda and McDonald's are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.
> 
> The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by several of the major food retailers.​
> More Remainer scaremongering predictions.
> 
> Note: 30% of our food comes from the EU.


If you are that worried:
*Stock up your cupboards and freezer now *
instead of letting the press worry you with what if's and maybe's. Then if this dooms day prediction comes true at least you and your family will have food. Or grow your own veg. Put it this way... if it doesn't happen then you won't have to do any shopping for a while 

This time tomorrow the withdrawal bill could well be on it's way through Parliament. If Graham Bradies amendment suceeds TM will have a stronger hand to go back to Brussels about the Irish Back stop. Even Labour want this renegotiating. Like most deals done with the EU this will be a last minute agreement so expect alot to happen between now and 29th March 2019 with TM going back and forth to Brussels.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> About time we grew more of our own and encouraged seasonal produce, instead of buying produce grown under plastic in Spain. People have been going on about the environment and air/road miles, wastefulness and an obesity crisis. Maybe No Deal is the answer, if we're forced to buy local and holiday in the U.K.


Great in principle (and I'd love to see it in the long term!  ), but the UK hasn't been agriculturally self sufficient in decades, and that's not going to change overnight. I'd have to do some research, but even if we were to use each scrap of potentially productive land, including gardens, in it's most efficent food produicing way, off the top of my head I'm not sure we'd be able to produce enough to sustain the current population.



stockwellcat. said:


> If you are that worried:
> *Stock up your cupboards and freezer now *
> instead of letting the press worry you. Then if this dooms day prediction comes true at least you and your family will have food. Or grow your own veg. Put it this way... if it doesn't happen then you won't have to do any shopping for a while


That's all very well if you can afford to do so. What about those who can't? Growing your own isn't an option for quite a lot of people, either.

Please note, this is not being negative or defeatist, just practical.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> That's all very well if you can afford to do so. What about those who can't? Growing your own isn't an option for quite a lot of people, either.
> 
> Please note, this is not being negative or defeatist, just practical.


So an extra 40p or so for cheap pasta or cans of beans or tomatoes is not affordable? I know people on low incomes that have been buying extra food and putting it away.

I understand what you are saying though and sympathise with those that cannot stock up.

Edited...
Regarding this Government well I think most of the nation knows they are perhaps the worst in history but they have there use and then they will be dumped. Problem is Labour are not fit enough to replace this Government and from what was said today is the Labour Supporters (you know, the Corbynites) are leaving and joining other parties due to Corbyn.


----------



## Elles

If the wealthier stock up now, there’ll be more brought in for the rest later. I always did my Christmas shopping on Christmas Eve when everyone else was done and the shops would be empty of shoppers, but full of produce, a lot of it reduced. Of course nowadays people have realised and leave their shop to the last minute too. Darn it. If the scares work though, there should be tons in the shops in April, but less now.


----------



## Elles

An extra 40p is a lot if you already have no money left each week unfortunately.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Pasta 20p in Tesco
Baked Beans 23p in Tesco

I am not wealthy. Far from it but budget and normally have money left over.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> "No Deal" prediction.
> 
> I would agree that 'no deal' is likely to cause more short term disruption than leaving with a deal. Especially given our current government's history.
> 
> About time we grew more of our own and encouraged seasonal produce, instead of buying produce grown under plastic in Spain. People have been going on about the environment and air/road miles, wastefulness and an obesity crisis. Maybe No Deal is the answer, if we're forced to buy local and holiday in the U.K.


Cancel the holidays abroad and grow your own food. Don't remember the Leave campaign pushing that!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If you are that worried:
> *Stock up your cupboards and freezer now *
> instead of letting the press worry you with whatbif's and maybe's. Then if this dooms day prediction comes true at least you and your family will have food. Or grow your own veg. Put it this way... if it doesn't happen then you won't have to do any shopping for a while
> 
> This time tomorrow the withdrawal bill could well be on it's way through Parliament. If Graham Bradies amendment suceeds TM will have a stronger hand to go back to Brussels about the Irish Back stop. Even Labour want this renegotiating. Like most deals done with the EU this will be a last minute agreement so expect alot to happen between now and 29th March 2019 with TM going back and forth to Brussels.


I'm not worried in the slightest and won't be stocking up with anything.

If Brady's amendment is chosen by the Speaker and is passed then May will have a mandate to go back to the EU and negotiate what she's been trying to negotiate for the last 2 years, and the best she came up with was rejected by 230 votes two weeks ago.

The Irish (and the rest of the EU) say there has to be a backstop. And it can't be time limited or it won't be a backstop.

What is she going to negotiate?

Labour want to solve the problem with a permanent Customs Union. Is May going to drop her red line against that?


----------



## KittenKong

3% of those polled would rather see martial law than cancel Brexit?

Really???


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> "No Deal" prediction.
> 
> I would agree that 'no deal' is likely to cause more short term disruption than leaving with a deal. Especially given our current government's history.
> 
> About time we grew more of our own and encouraged seasonal produce, instead of buying produce grown under plastic in Spain. People have been going on about the environment and air/road miles, wastefulness and an obesity crisis. Maybe No Deal is the answer, if we're forced to buy local and holiday in the U.K.


And maybe we'll find our English apples like Cox's Orange Pippins and Bramley back on the supermarket shelves again instead of those tasteless Golden Delicious. And decent potatoes like King Edward instead of the awful Desiree.

Of course it's all right me talking because I won't be able to buy them lol

https://www.theguardian.com/small-b...8/after-brexit-english-apples-bramley-starkey

*'After Brexit people will fall in love with English apples again'*

https://www.countryfile.com/news/can-the-uk-feed-itself-after-brexit/


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Cancel the holidays abroad and grow your own food. Don't remember the Leave campaign pushing that!


I know right? Advantages to a No Deal Brexit that the Leave campaign had totally missed!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not worried in the slightest and won't be stocking up with anything.
> 
> If Brady's amendment is chosen by the Speaker and is passed then May will have a mandate to go back to the EU and negotiate what she's been trying to negotiate for the last 2 years, and the best she came up with was rejected by 230 votes two weeks ago.
> 
> The Irish (and the rest of the EU) say there has to be a backstop. And it can't be time limited or it won't be a backstop.
> 
> What is she going to negotiate?
> 
> Labour want to solve the problem with a permanent Customs Union. Is May going to drop her red line against that?


Apprently (according to news sources) the back stop can be taken out of the withdrawal agreement if an alternative is given an EU spokes person has confirmed this. Graham Bradies Freedom Clause in the last few hours and received alot of support and the Government is willing to throw it's weight behind it.


----------



## Elles

stockwellcat. said:


> Pasta 20p in Tesco
> Baked Beans 23p in Tesco
> 
> I am not wealthy. Far from it but budget and normally have money left over.


There's a difference between not wealthy and poverty though. Tesco's are closing a lot of stores this year too, so you might not be able to get to cheaper supermarkets. When you're living hand to mouth, you can't always afford to stock up for even a week, but are living from one bit of money to another and if you're on an agency or something like that, your income isn't even guaranteed from one week to the next. It can be bloody hard.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Apprently (according to news sources) the back stop can be taken out of the withdrawal agreement if an alternative is given an EU spokes person has confirmed this. Graham Bradies Freedom Clause in the last few hours and received alot of support and the Government is willing to throw it's weight behind it.


Yes I expect it can, but it does beg a rather obvious question:

*What alternative?*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> There's a difference between not wealthy and poverty though. Tesco's are closing a lot of stores this year too, so you might not be able to get to cheaper supermarkets. When you're living hand to mouth, you can't always afford to stock up for even a week, but are living from one bit of money to another and if you're on an agency or something like that, your income isn't even guaranteed from one week to the next. It can be bloody hard.


When I used to do agency work in early 2000's I had assignments that lasted a few days or a week here and there but I made sure I had work lined up for when that assignment ended by going into the agencybor other agencies lining work up and often would ask for long term assignments so I knew the work was guaranteed for a set period of time. How times have changed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yes I expect it can, but it does beg a rather obvious question:
> 
> *What alternative?*


Brady's Freedom Clause whatever that is (I haven't looked it up yet).

Edited
Just caught up with the news.The EU have said the deal is not open for renegotiation and there is strong doubts Labour will back Yvette Cooper's no deal amendment.

Brady's amendment is dead in the water the looks of it.

The Guardian is the source of the above edit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Brady's Freedom Clause whatever that is (I haven't looked it up yet).
> 
> Edited
> Just caught up with the news.The EU have said the deal is no open for renegotiation and strong doubts Labour will back Yvette Cooper's no deal amendment.


The "freedom clause" is a soundbite from Boris's Telegraph column this morning. He wants either an end date on the backstop or a way the UK can unilaterally decide to end it. Both have been suggested before, and both have been refused because what remains isn't a backstop.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The "freedom clause" is a soundbite from Boris's Telegraph column this morning. He wants either an end date on the backstop or a way the UK can unilaterally decide to end it. Both have been suggested before, and both have been refused because what remains isn't a backstop.


Well the EU have since said the deal is not open for renegotiation. So Brady's amendment is dead in the water now even though TM is pushing the amendment to other Conservative MP's.

TM is meeting in a committee room in Parliament with all Conservative party MP's atm to push Brady's amendment.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the EU have since said the deal is not open for renegotiation. So Brady's amendment is dead in the water now even though TM is pushing the amendment to other Conservative MP's.
> 
> TM is meeting in a committee room in Parliament with all Conservative party MP's atm to push Brady's amendment.


The idea is that if Parliament pass the Brady amendment it will make clear to the EU what would get past the Commons. They'd probably still say no, but it would then allow the Tory Brexiteers to say it was all the EU's fault for being intransigent, and that we should leave with No Deal.

And if the Labour party have decided not to back Cooper's amendment they need a good kick up the arse.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> An extra 40p is a lot if you already have no money left each week unfortunately.


I can remember a time that I had to hunt the house for pennies to make up enough to buy a loaf of bread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-for-yvette-coopers-brexit-amendment-in-doubt


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/risk...-crushing-defeat-eu-negotiator-warns-11620642


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...stop-say-leading-tory-brexiters-politics-live


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 390618
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...stop-say-leading-tory-brexiters-politics-live


With what?


----------



## Elles

Not exact quotes but..

‘The Eu want us to stay in, so we want a better deal. If the Eu genuinely want Britain to stay in the Eu, what are they offering? Let’s have a Remain Deal. ‘ 

The Eu would choke on their champers. 

‘To avoid a hard border, Ireland could join with us and leave the Eu.’

On Channel 4 news.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> 'To avoid a hard border, Ireland could join with us and leave the Eu.'


Well that is a good idea. Ireland after all followed the UK into the Common Market/EC/EEC/EU after feeling they were going to be cut off. Same scenario now. Ireland being cut off from the EU so the only option for them really is to follow the UK out of the EU. The UK is there closest trading partner after all (When I say Ireland I am talking about the republic) geographically.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Not exact quotes but..
> 
> 'The Eu want us to stay in, so we want a better deal. If the Eu genuinely want Britain to stay in the Eu, what are they offering? Let's have a Remain Deal. '
> 
> The Eu would choke on their champers.
> 
> 'To avoid a hard border, Ireland could join with us and leave the Eu.'
> 
> On Channel 4 news.


Glory be, what on earth were the people who made _those _comments smoking?!? :Wideyed


----------



## stockwellcat.

The 2nd vote is scheduled for the 13th February 2019.

Tomorrow night is about any amendments to be considered for the withdrawal agreement if the EU will renegotiate. The vote on the amendments will be at 19:00 tomorrow night. Bercow will decide which amendments MP's will be able to debate on tomorrow (throughout the day) and vote on tomorrow night.

Only 32 sitting days in the House of Commons thats 8 full working weeks to go (minus the recess they have off in February. 9 weeks all together including the recess week). MP's and Ministers only sit in the House of Commons 4 out of 7 days per week according to the above schedule. Very rarely they sit on a Friday and they never work at the weekend.

Technically MP's have a full working month (31 Parliament working days) to sort Brexit out before 29th March 2019.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> Glory be, what on earth were the people who made _those _comments smoking?!? :Wideyed


 John Humphrys been at the wacky backy


----------



## Grigori

Hello Elles. It is nice to meet you. Thank you for my mention and explain for me citizen Smith. I was not alive at time citizen Smith was on your TV.
I am citizen of my country but I am not criminal. I have work in night time and morning.
Now I write for Satori and support. I am sorry my english is not good and you make bad joke and insult. I was polite for you. I will not ask question for you again. Also my name is Grigori.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Not exact quotes but..
> 
> 'The Eu want us to stay in, so we want a better deal. If the Eu genuinely want Britain to stay in the Eu, what are they offering? Let's have a Remain Deal. '
> 
> The Eu would choke on their champers.
> 
> 'To avoid a hard border, Ireland could join with us and leave the Eu.'
> 
> On Channel 4 news.


This is what Barnier said yesterday at the EESC.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...m=email&utm_campaign=Daily RSS Dailyroundup 2

*Michel Barnier: EU must brace for no-deal Brexit*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> This is what Barnier said yesterday at the EESC.
> 
> https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/michel-barnier-eu-must-brace-no-deal-brexit?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily RSS Dailyroundup 2
> 
> *Michel Barnier: EU must brace for no-deal Brexit*


Not surprised he said this with only 31 working UK Parliament days left (from and including today).


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Not surprised he said this with only 31 working UK Parliament days left (from and including today).


I heard a few days ago the TM has said MP's will have to work Fridays, weekends and during the recess.

After all why not, in business if you have an important deadline to meet it's quite normal for staff to work over time.

I've done it myself more times that I care to remember so why should MP's be any different?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...and-weekends-to-avoid-legal-cliff-edge-brexit

*MPs may have to work Fridays and weekends to avoid legal cliff edge*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> I heard a few days ago the TM has said MP's will have to work Fridays, weekends and during the recess.
> 
> After all why not, in business if you have an important deadline to meet it's quite normal for staff to work over time.
> 
> I've done it myself more times that I care to remember so why should MP's be any different?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...and-weekends-to-avoid-legal-cliff-edge-brexit
> 
> *MPs may have to work Fridays and weekends to avoid legal cliff edge*


I wouldn't hold my breath. Some on here wanted MP's and Ministers to call off their Christmas and New Year recess to sort Brexit out and it never happened. I doubt they will change Parliamentary business and working days:









(This schedule is from yesterday so there is now 31 working days left)

No Deal is a very high possibility now.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have been reading the news paper article you posted @Magyarmum and this may not happen depending on what is decided on the 13th February 2019 when Parliament vote for a second time on the withdrawal agreement. Some of the legislation is to do with avoiding no deal, some with incorporating EU law into domestic law, and some to create laws for the transition period. 6 pieces of law and 40 odd pieces of legislation. Some of it might not be needed depending on what MP's vote on the 13th February 2019. Some of this maybe irrelevant if no deal happens.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit 'plan C' emerges after Jacob Rees-Mogg joins forces with Tory Remainers in astonishing compromise*

Under the proposals, the prime minister would seek to renegotiate the backstop - designed to prevent the return of Irish border checks - based on a reliance on unproven technology.

If that failed, the EU would be asked to still grant the cushion of a transition period, extended to December 2021, in return for the UK paying the full £39bn divorce bill and protecting EU citizens' rights.

This would give both sides time to prepare for a hard Brexit departure on World Trade Organisation (WTO) terms at the end of 2021 - or to strike a trade deal to kick in at that time.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...g-steve-baker-conservatives-a8751661.html?amp


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I know it is. It just seems an odd reason to feel animosity towards today's EU. It's like Spain wanting us out because we beat up their armada.


Incredible isn't.

Rejoice in the memory of the British Empire, Slave Trade and all...


----------



## noushka05

*Andrew Parnall:

*
When the last factory gates close.
Will that be the end of Project Fear?
Will it take the loss of a loved one?
Someone you hold dear?

Will troops on the streets do it?
Will you open your eyes?
Will you finally say no 
To all of the lies?

What will it take
For you to see?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## KittenKong

Grigori said:


> Hello Elles. It is nice to meet you. Thank you for my mention and explain for me citizen Smith. I was not alive at time citizen Smith was on your TV.
> I am citizen of my country but I am not criminal. I have work in night time and morning.
> Now I write for Satori and support. I am sorry my english is not good and you make bad joke and insult. I was polite for you. I will not ask question for you again. Also my name is Grigori.


I bet you anything those who've rudely criticised your admirable attempts at English wouldn't have a clue how to speak or write in your native tongue!

I probably wouldn't myself without resorting to Google Translate.

I am in Spain at the moment. The bigoted "Brits" who resort to this behaviour are only showing themselves up to the rest of the world as PF access is not restricted to the UK alone.

Not in my name though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> I am in Spain at the moment.


Hope you are having a nice holiday?


----------



## Elles

Oh great, they want to drag it out for another couple of years. If JRM is supporting it he’s an idiot. If they drag it out for 2 years, we’ll stay in. Maybe they hope the rioters will be dead, or they can put more money into the military and build it up before then. Whereas if we stay in now, Britain will burn under a civil unrest that it’s unprepared for. 

No, I don’t believe that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the government are thinking it.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I bet you anything those who've rudely criticised your admirable attempts at English wouldn't have a clue how to speak or write in your native tongue!
> 
> I probably wouldn't myself without resorting to Google Translate.
> 
> I am in Spain at the moment. The bigoted "Brits" who resort to this behaviour are only showing themselves up to the rest of the world as PF access is not restricted to the UK alone.
> 
> Not in my name though.


And naturally you speak perfect Spanish!


----------



## Elles

I learnt some Spanish before I went to Spain. Did evening classes and bought Rosetta Stone. I had the piss taken out of me by Spaniards. Learned that Spanish in Valencia is different from Spanish in Malaga and different again from Spanish in Gibraltar and that every Spaniard and his dog speaks English.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Not in my name though.


Well I'll be damned


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Brexit 'plan C' emerges after Jacob Rees-Mogg joins forces with Tory Remainers in astonishing compromise*
> 
> Under the proposals, the prime minister would seek to renegotiate the backstop - designed to prevent the return of Irish border checks - based on a reliance on unproven technology.
> 
> If that failed, the EU would be asked to still grant the cushion of a transition period, extended to December 2021, in return for the UK paying the full £39bn divorce bill and protecting EU citizens' rights.
> 
> This would give both sides time to prepare for a hard Brexit departure on World Trade Organisation (WTO) terms at the end of 2021 - or to strike a trade deal to kick in at that time.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-brexit-plan-vote-commons-jacob-rees-mogg-steve-baker-conservatives-a8751661.html?amp


'Political journalist Robert Peston said that a source for the EU27 had rubbished the plan.

'He tweeted a quote which said: "*Zero chance.* Have just discussed over here. Viewed as both extraordinarily funny and tragic. No-one can understand how Nicky M and co would sign off on a proposition which leads so obviously to no-deal".'​
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...compromise-offers-plan-c-for-brexit-1-5869688


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I learnt some Spanish before I went to Spain. Did evening classes and bought Rosetta Stone. I had the piss taken out of me by Spaniards. Learned that Spanish in Valencia is different from Spanish in Malaga and different again from Spanish in Gibraltar and that every Spaniard and his dog speaks English.


Yup! There's Castilian Spanish like they speak in Alicante, and then there's Andalusian Spanish as spoken in Malaga. As you say in the tourist resorts most Spaniards speak English .... and also many speak German ..... and Dutch!

I have no problem living in Hungary and not being fluent in Hungarian because most children over the age of 10 speak English. And certainly shopping in my nearest city is no problem language wise as you can always find someone who speaks good English.

I was in Poland a few months ago and again no difficulty as English was spoken everywhere we went.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*UK will end free movement 'as soon as possible' in case of no deal Brexit*

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/29/uk/brexit-no-deal-free-movement-intl-gbr/index.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> 'Political journalist Robert Peston said that a source for the EU27 had rubbished the plan.
> 
> 'He tweeted a quote which said: "*Zero chance.* Have just discussed over here. Viewed as both extraordinarily funny and tragic. No-one can understand how Nicky M and co would sign off on a proposition which leads so obviously to no-deal".'​
> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...compromise-offers-plan-c-for-brexit-1-5869688


TM is demanding that the withdrawal agreement to be rewritten. Zero chance of that happening as well.

No deal becoming more realistic as the seconds, minutes and hours tick by.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> And naturally you speak perfect Spanish!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Liam Fox is demanding that the withdrawal agreement should be rewritten. Zero chance of that happening as well.
> 
> No deal becoming more realistic as the seconds, minutes and hours tick by.


Well let's all hope the grownups in Parliament can do something to stop that.

Not only is it a very bad idea in the short term, but as far as I know there is absolutely no plan from the Brexiteers for what the country should do after we leave with No Deal in 2 months time. So it's a very bad idea in the long term as well and would be a ridiculous abdication of Parliamentary responsibility.


----------



## Arnie83

Labour has confirmed 3 line whip support for Cooper's amendment. So they should!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Well let's all hope the grownups in Parliament can do something to stop that.


:Hilarious What grown ups?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Labour has confirmed 3 line whip support for Cooper's amendment. So they should!


Labour front benchers warned Corbyn if he tried doing this as they said they want to support Brexit and would defy him. Plus Labour was moaning about a free vote, this isn't a free vote putting a 3 line whip on an amendment. Doubt it will get through anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sorry @Arnie83 where is the link to prove they have done this as it is not on the news channels or twitter feeds I can see?

I know there was a 1 line whip last night on the immigration bill.


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry @Arnie83 where is the link to prove they have done this as it is not on the news channels or twitter feeds I can see?
> 
> I know there was a 1 line whip last night on the immigration bill.


All I know is that Max Foster of CNN announced it about 15 minutes ago


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just seen it on Sky News channel.

Let's see if all Labour MP's will vote for it as there has been some vocal front and back bench MP's who have said in recent days that if Corbyn tried this they would ignore the whip (front bench MP's) saying they would rather lose there jobs than support it as it would be a betrayal to the British Public to allow such an amendment or to try and stop Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Sorry @Arnie83 where is the link to prove they have done this as it is not on the news channels or twitter feeds I can see?
> 
> I know there was a 1 line whip last night on the immigration bill.


I don't have a link to live TV, but I suspect Laura Kuenssberg's twitter feed would have it ...

here ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090219084757848065
followed by


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090220216045441024


----------



## Jesthar

Struggling to keep up with all these about-faces now - am I totally confused, or is May now ordering her own party to vote *against *something she spent two years negotiating?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Struggling to keep up with all these about-faces now - am I totally confused, or is May now ordering her own party to vote *against *something she spent two years negotiating?


Yep. May now wants MP's to vote on a deal she wants to now tear up.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I don't have a link to live TV, but I suspect Laura Kuenssberg's twitter feed would have it ...
> 
> here ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090219084757848065
> followed by
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090220216045441024


Can't you get Parliament Live and get it straight from the horses mouth (so to speak)?

https://parliamentlive.tv/Commons


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Struggling to keep up with all these about-faces now - am I totally confused, or is May now ordering her own party to vote *against *something she spent two years negotiating?


I was just thinking the same thing and about to post it! I don't think you're alone lol


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I bet you anything those who've rudely criticised your admirable attempts at English wouldn't have a clue how to speak or write in your native tongue!
> 
> I probably wouldn't myself without resorting to Google Translate.
> 
> I am in Spain at the moment. The bigoted "Brits" who resort to this behaviour are only showing themselves up to the rest of the world as PF access is not restricted to the UK alone.
> 
> Not in my name though.


Good on you for speaking out KK, I thought exactly the same when I saw posts x. Not in my name either! I used to think we were a polite race, respectful towards nationals from other countries. Brexit is bringing out the worst in us - or perhaps we never were that polite?. Anyway Grigori has a far better grasp on the English language than many natives do! - probably me included:Bag.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Can't you get Parliament Live and get it straight from the horses mouth (so to speak)?
> 
> https://parliamentlive.tv/Commons


Watching Free View channel 232 (BBC Parliament Channel) now.

They are planning to reopen the HMRC regional centres  Things were fine before they closed them and centralised everything. You used to be able to go into the regional centres and get advise face to face, you cannot do that at the moment as things are only available on the phone or online.

Staff's moral at HMRC is at an all time low as well.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I learnt some Spanish before I went to Spain. Did evening classes and bought Rosetta Stone. I had the piss taken out of me by Spaniards. Learned that Spanish in Valencia is different from Spanish in Malaga and different again from Spanish in Gibraltar and that every Spaniard and his dog speaks English.


It's a regional dialects sort of thing. Teach someone queen's English and send them to the north east, they wouldn't have a clue! 

I had the same issue in Germany. I learnt a bit of German Monchengladbach area and had not a Scooby what they were saying down in the south. Most frustrating...


----------



## noushka05

What a joke

*Matt Chorley*‏:

"I have been clear" 
"Let me be clear" 
"I am clear" 
"I was clear"
"Made it clear"

How Theresa May is getting clearer and clearer..


----------



## stockwellcat.

It is a bit late now for Parliament to be making demands to change the deal. The EU are going to say no as they have said it is the deal on the table or no deal. Oh wait a minute they have already said no to Plan C and a swathe of other proposed amendments that are designed to change the deal. The EU have also said they will veto Brexit if the UK Parliament put forward amendments that are aimed at changing the deal.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Good on you for speaking out KK, I thought exactly the same when I saw posts x. Not in my name either! I used to think we were a polite race, respectful towards nationals from other countries. Brexit is bringing out the worst in us - or perhaps we never were that polite?. Anyway Grigori has a far better grasp on the English language than many natives do! - probably me included:Bag.


Thanks Noushka.

I couldn't ignore that and had to say something.

if anyone was offended by my words I couldn't care less. I was offended to see Grigori targeted this way.

There's nothing in the forum rules that states PF is a British Forum purely for the British.

I'm in Spain at the moment and can access these pages as easily as I can in the UK.

Some here would do well to remember that.

Thanks again for your comments Noushka. We can show not everyone in the UK thinks the same way as some here do.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> It's a regional dialects sort of thing. Teach someone queen's English and send them to the northeast, they wouldn't have a clue!


As I mentioned earlier I originate from Northumberland but grew up in different parts of England from Durham to Devon between the ages of 4-18 owing to my father's work.

This has resulted in a mixed dialect which has caused confusion and, at times, conflict about my origin.

People thought I was Welsh in Devon, Irish back in the NE when I returned in 1984.

The latter was where the problems really started as the IRA were active at the time. The brainless ones obviously thought Irish = IRA.

To this day I've never been to anywhere in Ireland and have no plans to go there.

In one job I had I was frequently asked, "You're not from around here" and "You're not one of us". I found this very irritating as trying to explain to I was born within a radius of a mile didn't go well.

Of course, this is not restricted to the UK and not directly Brexit related. I watched the excellent French film, " The African Doctor" recently, based on a true story about a fluent French speaking qualified Doctor from Zaire who moved to a village North of Paris in the mid-'70s with the struggle to become accepted by the bigoted locals.

Only last week I was told, " I don't understand you Cockney's"!


----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47037365


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Can't you get Parliament Live and get it straight from the horses mouth (so to speak)?
> 
> https://parliamentlive.tv/Commons


Yes I can, and did, but I can't provide a link to that on here!


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Struggling to keep up with all these about-faces now - am I totally confused, or is May now ordering her own party to vote *against *something she spent two years negotiating?


And which she assured the House was not only the best, but the only deal on offer?

Yep, that's the one.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> As I mentioned earlier I originate from Northumberland but grew up in different parts of England from Durham to Devon between the ages of 4-18 owing to my father's work.
> 
> This has resulted in a mixed dialect which has caused confusion and, at times, conflict about my origin.
> 
> People thought I was Welsh in Devon, Irish back in the NE when I returned in 1984.
> 
> The latter was where the problems really started as the IRA were active at the time. The brainless ones obviously thought Irish = IRA.
> 
> To this day I've never been to anywhere in Ireland and have plans to.
> 
> In one job I had I was frequently asked, "You're not from around here" and "You're not one of us". I found this very irritating as trying to explain I was born within a radius of a mile didn't go well.
> 
> Of course, this is not restricted to the UK and not directly Brexit related. I watched the excellent French film, " The African Doctor", based on a true story about a fluent French speaking qualified Doctor from Ziere who moved to a village in the mid '70s with the struggle to become accepted by the bigoted locals.
> 
> Only last week I was told, " I don't understand you Cockney's"!


Do you have an accent that also moves around as you talk? Someone I knew moved around a lot and it felt like you were speaking to several different people at once sometimes!

You should go to Ireland. Parts of it are beautiful. I adored Kinsale :Happy

Someone told me I sound like I'm from London once and I'm from the Midlands!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Do you have an accent that also moves around as you talk? Someone I knew moved around a lot and it felt like you were speaking to several different people at once sometimes!
> 
> You should go to Ireland. Parts of it are beautiful. I adored Kinsale :Happy
> 
> Someone told me I sound like I'm from London once and I'm from the Midlands!


I think, now being back in the NE over the past 25 years I certainly have a hybrid of Northern and Southern accents.

Nowadays, most in the South see me as a "Geordie", even if Geordies themselves back home don't see me as one!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Thanks Noushka.
> 
> I couldn't ignore that and had to say something.
> 
> if anyone was offended by my words I couldn't care less. I was offended to see Grigori targeted this way.
> 
> There's nothing in the forum rules that states PF is a British Forum purely for the British.
> 
> I'm in Spain at the moment and can access these pages as easily as I can in the UK.
> 
> Some here would do well to remember that.
> 
> Thanks again for your comments Noushka. We can show not everyone in the UK thinks the same way as some here do.


One person and one person* ONLY* on this thread was rude to Grigori, and quite frankly they should be ashamed of themselves.

So why you have to involve the whole of PF and the UK in this I'm not quite sure?

And I'm in Hungary at the moment and can access these pages as easily as I can do in the UK, as can any PF member living in other parts of the world.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## noushka05

The tories don't give a to$$ about half of this country (or more!) who have been shut out (they dont care about the country for that matter!) .

*David Schneider*‏:
Brexit negotiations. A summary:

23rd June 2016 - 28th Jan 2019 Tory party negotiates with itself. Presumes EU will accept whatever they decide.

29th Jan 2019 New tactic. Tory party negotiates with itself. Presumes EU will accept whatever they decide

.......................................


----------



## noushka05

Two words sum up Theresa May - morally bankrupt.

*David Lammy*‏:
_Theresa May has no interest in uniting the country. In capitulating to the hard right ERG's fantasy politics on the backstop, it's clear her only priorities 
are to keep her job and the Tory Party together.

This Faustian pact raises the prospect of No Deal._

https://www.channel4.com/news/theresa-may-says-let-me-re-think-backstop


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Yes I can, and did, but I can't provide a link to that on here!


My apologies. I read it as though you couldn't get the HoC live on your computer!

My mistake.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Arnie83

So the government's latest plan - presumably whether Brady's amendment is passed or not - is to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed by May in November, and to come up, during the next 2 weeks, with a different method of ensuring no border in Ireland and with no backstop agreement, but with no suggestion as to what that method might be.

Sounds like a winner.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> So the government's latest plan - presumably whether Brady's amendment is passed or not - is to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed by May in November, and to come up, during the next 2 weeks, with a different method of ensuring no border in Ireland and with no backstop agreement, but with no suggestion as to what that method might be.
> 
> Sounds like a winner.


Yep that sums it up.


----------



## Arnie83

Published yesterday ...

*UK nationals living in the EU/EEA and Switzerland: Healthcare*
Information on healthcare for UK nationals living in the European Union (EU), the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland if the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 29 March.

The government has, or is seeking, agreements with countries in the EU/EEA and Switzerland on the continuation of healthcare arrangements for UK nationals after 29 March.

Your access to healthcare may change if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

There are steps you may have to take now to prepare. This will differ according to the country you are living in.

*Register for healthcare*
If you are eligible, register for healthcare under the local rules of the country you live in. You may have to be a long-term legal resident or pay social security contributions to access free or discounted healthcare in the EU/EEA country.

It is recommended that you get health insurance while you are applying for residency.

*Health insurance*
You may need to buy healthcare insurance in the country you live in so you can receive the healthcare treatment you need.

etc.​
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nati...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Let's hope this gets sorted in the next 2 months.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> So the government's latest plan - presumably whether Brady's amendment is passed or not - is to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that was agreed by May in November, and to come up, during the next 2 weeks, with a different method of ensuring no border in Ireland and with no backstop agreement, but with no suggestion as to what that method might be.
> 
> Sounds like a winner.


*sigh* Why are they even bothering when they KNOW it won't make it out of the blocks, let alone past first base?


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have switched over from the BBC Parliament channel for now as it is like watching a bunch of school children. Sorry school children behave better than what is going on at the moment in Parliament.

I will switch back over at 19:00 when the votes begin.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Grigori said:


> Hello KittenKong. It is nice to meet you. I read this thread for days. Conservative party is never bankrupt. I read they bought coalition government DUP with money they took from citizens. If party need money they steal it from the citizens again. It is same in history and my country. Rich live off poor like parasites sucking blood from dog. Revolution is now only answer.
> People vote brexit like same people vote Trump. Trump is national emergency.


Welcome Grigori, don't get discouraged, even Satori won't say no to vodka and caviar...


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> *sigh* Why are they even bothering when they KNOW it won't make it out of the blocks, let alone past first base?


I'm beginning to wonder. Is it so that we can blame the EU for being intransigent on their red lines? Staying in the Customs Union would solve the problem but isn't on the table because it's a UK red line (well, an ERG one anyway) and we're being intransigent!

What does May suggest to Parliament in 2 weeks time if she comes back with nothing new?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Published yesterday ...
> 
> *UK nationals living in the EU/EEA and Switzerland: Healthcare*
> Information on healthcare for UK nationals living in the European Union (EU), the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland if the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 29 March.
> 
> The government has, or is seeking, agreements with countries in the EU/EEA and Switzerland on the continuation of healthcare arrangements for UK nationals after 29 March.
> 
> Your access to healthcare may change if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.
> 
> There are steps you may have to take now to prepare. This will differ according to the country you are living in.
> 
> *Register for healthcare*
> If you are eligible, register for healthcare under the local rules of the country you live in. You may have to be a long-term legal resident or pay social security contributions to access free or discounted healthcare in the EU/EEA country.
> 
> It is recommended that you get health insurance while you are applying for residency.
> 
> *Health insurance*
> You may need to buy healthcare insurance in the country you live in so you can receive the healthcare treatment you need.
> 
> etc.​
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nati...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
> 
> Let's hope this gets sorted in the next 2 months.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I'm done


Why?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Why is always ok to go on about Brits? If we weren't british ourselves, what would it be viewed as? Many people take pride in themselves and their country. By the time you're an adult you're a contributor to how it is. You may not be responsible for where you were born, but you are responsible for how it is where you live. So imho there's nothing wrong in being proud of being British and of your fellow Brits, if you are part of what's good about Britain. That is a choice.


Worth preserving... 
Britain was known for being stoic, solid even if stolid...
Stiff upper lip and all that...manners, honesty, fair play...
Noisy quarrels , back stabbing, chaos and mess used to be very unBritish...

The more shouting about leaving with no deal, the more unBritish it looks to me...

Ironic...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Why is always ok to go on about Brits? If we weren't british ourselves, what would it be viewed as? Many people take pride in themselves and their country. By the time you're an adult you're a contributor to how it is. You may not be responsible for where you were born, but you are responsible for how it is where you live. So imho there's nothing wrong in being proud of being British and of your fellow Brits, if you are part of what's good about Britain. That is a choice.


I haven't been proud of been British for years embarrassed is more like.



rona said:


> From a time when people in this country had a sense of humour and not a sense of outrage
> 
> Haha, just imagine all the pensioners rioting


Now that's a good idea, it'll pass the time away



Magyarmum said:


> Nah ..... far more subtle. I'll bring my dogs to bite ankles and I'll throw stink bombs, rotten eggs an tomatoes


I'll get my mobility scooter out and join you.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I haven't been proud of been British for years embarrassed is more like.
> 
> Now that's a good idea, it'll pass the time away
> 
> I'll get my mobility scooter out and join you.


Unfortunately I don't think the Grand Duchess and the Marquis will be much use because the love birds will too busy kissing and cuddling each other!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Why?


Why????? Why?????

Because in Hungary unlike France for example, to live here you have to have a permanent residence permit and a TAJ card which is your Hungarian NHS number plus if you're over 65 an OAP card.

We were advised last November by the British Ambassador to get all the necessary paperwork up to date, including changing our driving licences to Hungarian ones, which I and all the other British expats I know, have done.

Although none of us know what decision will be made by the Hungarian Government concerning UK citizens, the opinion is that nothing much will change because the regulations relating to third country citizens obtaining permanent residence are much the same as those of EU citizens.

Ironic as it's one of the few time you can thank the legacy of Soviet bureaucracy for being so demanding and thorough!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Why????? Why?????
> 
> Because in Hungary unlike France for example, to live here you have to have a permanent residence permit and a TAJ card which is your Hungarian NHS number plus if you're over 65 an OAP card.
> 
> We were advised last November by the British Ambassador to get all the necessary paperwork up to date, including changing our driving licences to Hungarian ones, which I and all the other British expats I know, have done.
> 
> Although none of us know what decision will be made by the Hungarian Government concerning UK citizens, the opinion is that nothing much will change because the regulations relating to third country citizens obtaining permanent residence are much the same as those of EU citizens.
> 
> Ironic as it's one of the few time you can thank the legacy of Soviet bureaucracy for being so demanding and thorough!


Well let's hope the Hungarian government don't spring any nasty surprises on you, or other governments on anyone else!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Division as MP's vote on Corbyn's amendment.

Amendment A
"The amendment calls for more time for MP's to consider alternatives to the Brexit deal, including a permanent customs union and a vote on the final Brexit deal."

Results expected at 19:15


----------



## stockwellcat.

Amendment A rejected
Ayes 296
Noes 327
Majority 31

Government saw off Corbyn's amendment


----------



## stockwellcat.

SNP and Wlesh Amendment next
Amendment O

Amendment O calls for Article 50 to be extended and for the Government to rule out no deal.

Looks as if Labour are abstaining on this amendment as Labour MP's are all seated.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Well let's hope the Hungarian government don't spring any nasty surprises on you, or other governments on anyone else!


Sadly ... we cannot all move to Hungary...
@Magyarmum how Big is your sofa?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Amendment O rejected
Ayes 39
Noes 327


----------



## rona

Looking positive 

Have they come to their senses and acting like adults instead of petulant teenagers


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Worth preserving...
> Britain was known for being stoic, solid even if stolid...
> Stiff upper lip and all that...manners, honesty, fair play...
> Noisy quarrels , back stabbing, chaos and mess used to be very unBritish...
> 
> The more shouting about leaving with no deal, the more unBritish it looks to me...
> 
> Ironic...


Britain as it's looking to the outside world today.









Makes you feel proud doesn't it?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Dominic Greive Amendment G rejected
Votes in favour: 301
Votes against: 321

The amendment, which would give MPs six full days to debate and vote on alternative Brexit options, has been defeated.

Government won again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour MP Yvette Cooper's amendment is now being voted on.

This would tell the government to allow time for a bid to postpone Brexit by nine months - if it has not managed to get a deal ratified in parliament by the end of February.


----------



## Arnie83

Dominic Raab says - live on BBC - that if the EU refuse to reopen the already agreed Withdrawal Agreement, they are being intransigent.

Well there's a shock.

Why not drop the Customs Union red line, Dom? Or are you going to be intransigent.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Labour MP Yvette Cooper's amendment rejected
Ayes: 298
Noes: 321

The amendment, which would have compelled the government to allow time for a bid to postpone Brexit by nine months if it had not managed to get a deal ratified in parliament by the end of February, has been defeated.

Government win


----------



## stockwellcat.

MPs are now voting on amendment from Labour MP Rachel Reeves.

This would require the government to seek an extension of Article 50 if a deal has not been passed in the Commons by 26 February. It is similar to Yvette Cooper's, but is not legally binding.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Dominic Raab says - live on BBC - that if the EU refuse to reopen the already agreed Withdrawal Agreement, they are being intransigent.
> 
> Well there's a shock.
> 
> Why not drop the Customs Union red line, Dom? Or are you going to be intransigent.


Because Corbyn's amendment for a CU has been rejected they don't have to drop the red line for a CU as the House spoke on the matter by voting against a CU.

Any way Raab has no power to drop the red line.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...out-brexit-renegotiation-brady-amendment-pass


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

RACHEL REEVES AMENDMENT RESULT

Ayes: 290
Noes: 322

The amendment, which would have told the government to ask the EU to delay Brexit if no deal had been passed in parliament by the end of February but did not specify how long for, has been defeated.

Government win


----------



## stockwellcat.

MPs are now voting on an amendment from Labour MPs Dame Caroline Spelman and Jack Dromey.

It states that MPs reject leaving the EU without a deal, but does not legally compel the government to act accordingly.


----------



## stockwellcat.

SPELMAN-DROMEY AMENDMENT RESULT

Ayes: 318

Noes: 310

The amendment, which tells the government to ask the EU to delay Brexit if no deal had been passed in parliament by the end of February but does not specify how long for, has been passed.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

MP's now voting to give the PM a mandate to change a backstop she negotiated.


----------



## stockwellcat.

BRADY AMENDMENT RESULT

Ayes: 317
Noes: 301

The amendment, which calls for the Irish border backstop to be "replaced with alternative arrangements", has been passed.

Government win.


----------



## stockwellcat.

That's it finished. TM is responding to the results in a points of order.

"A majority of members have now said they will support a deal with changes to a backstop. It is clear there is now a route which will sustain a majority in the House for leaving the EU.

We will now seek legally-binding changes to the backstop and talk to the EU about this."

May acknowledges there is a "limited appetite" from the EU to reopen the withdrawal agreement and that it won't be easy.


----------



## Snoringbear

I guess that’s told the EU. They’ll change it immediately.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

May says simply opposing no deal is not enough to stop it.

May again invites Jeremy Corbyn to hold talks with her on a way forward, as well as MPs who tabled amendments tonight.

Jeremy Corbyn responds, saying he is prepared to meet with the prime minister and that he "looks forward" to putting across Labour's views on Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford says the Tories have "shafted" Scotland when it comes to Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

EU27 reiterates Brexit deal 'not open for re-negotiation'

A spokesman for European Council president Donald Tusk says: "We welcome and share the UK parliament's ambition to avoid a no-deal scenario.

"We continue to urge the UK government to clarify its intentions with respect to its next steps as soon as possible.

"The withdrawal agreement is and remains the best and only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.

"The backstop is part of the withdrawal agreement, and the withdrawal agreement is not open for re-negotiation.

"The December European Council conclusions are very clear on this point.

"If the UK's intentions for the future partnership were to evolve, the EU would be prepared to reconsider its offer and adjust the content and the level of ambition of the political declaration, whilst respecting its established principles.

"Should there be a UK reasoned request for an extension, the EU27 would stand ready to consider it and decide by unanimity.

"The EU27 will adopt this decision, taking into account the reasons for and duration of a possible extension, as well as the need to ensure the functioning of the EU institutions.

"We will continue our preparations for all outcomes, including a no-deal scenario.

"We will also continue the EU's process of ratification of the agreement reached with the UK government.

"President Tusk will stay in close contact with EU27 leaders."


----------



## Elles

Corbyn can now say no deal has been taken off the table, so will meet with TM.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well if Parliament want a deal they are going to have to accept the deal made in November 2018 as the EU are not budging and will not reopen the deal to renegotiate it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Good show the UK Parliament put on tonight. Didn't work though. EU not budging on the deal on the table.


----------



## Elles

Of course no deal hasn’t been taken off the table, we might still leave without one, but it would appear petty of JC to split hairs and refuse to meet again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Of course no deal hasn't been taken off the table, we might still leave without one, but it would appear petty of JC to split hairs and refuse to meet again.


Tomorrow or by the end of the week TM will be on her way to Brussels to be met with a brick wall approach from the EU. She will be back in Parliament within 2 weeks declaring she cannot strike a deal and no deal will be the option. No deal should have happened 2 years ago.

The EU may declare yet that no deal can be reached and that would be the end of it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> Tomorrow or by the end of the week TM will be on her way to Brussels to be met with a brick wall approach from the EU. She will be back in Patliament within 2 weeks declaring she cannot strike a deal and no deal will be the option. No deal should have happened 2 years ago.


She messed around for two years then signed a deal with the EU. Remember she and all 27 countries signed her deal, so why should she think she can change things now. It's like saying I've just brought a new car for £20,000 and I'm going back and see if they'll let me have it £15,000


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> She messed around for two years then signed a deal with the EU. Remember she and all 27 countries signed her deal, so why should she think she can change things now. It's like saying I've just brought a new car for £20,000 and I'm going back and see if they'll let me have it £15,000


It's not her deal. It is a negotiated deal by all 28 Countries. May's deal looked alot different to the deal that is now on offer if you remember.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think it is safe to say now that Brexit is definitely happening. No deal is still on the table and may well still happen because the EU are not willing to renegotiate the negotiated withdrawal deal or the Irish back stop. There will be no extension to article 50 and no more delays. Roll on 29th March 2019. Tonight was MP's last chance to do anything and instead the support was on rejecting an extension to article 50, rejecting a customs union as proposed by Corbyn and any further delays. May won't be able to renegotiate the withdrawal deal or the Irish back stop and that then means there is no deal to be had. 30 Parliament working days to go and it will be all over, done and dusted, finished as the UK will be out of the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So No Deal is a no deal?
We will have a May Deal somewhat tweaked, not much.

Which is worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.

Backstop is to protect Good Friday agreement, it is a shame that amendment went through.
Unfortunately this vote is not binding for EU.

Do people understand at all why we need Customs Union?
Swiss do and they are fiercely independent nation, but still business is business.

Only few MPs are happy to take a gamble on the future of the entire nation.
Failed No Deal means riots , chaos and poverty.
Unicorns and backstops....


----------



## grumpy goby

cheekyscrip said:


> Do people understand at all why we need Customs Union?
> Swiss do and they are fiercely independent nation, but still business is business.
> ...


I think generally all sides of the argument have done a terrible job of explaining to the public what the EU single market does, how it is set up, how it operates within WTO rules and what it essentially means to lose. Thats not to say that there arent people on both sides who understand it; and have their own opinions on it - but I would say on the most part it is not wholely understood by the general public...

Along with the EU trade deals which will be lost, I think (although this is from memory so numbers may be wrong) about 11% of UK trade is through free trade deals that the EU has with other countries (i think there are 36 free trades deals with the EU) which will disappear post Brexit. So far, the government has done a terrible job of communicating what deals they have been, or plan to, negotiate alongside the EU nonsense - I think preliminary agreements with Aus and NZ (not signed), and Canada (also not signed)

From start to apparently finish - this whole mess has been poorly communicated, debated, planned and executed. Its more than a bit embarrassing. It was always going to be a poison chalice who whoever our PM was - there is no deal which would make everyone happy - but I dont think anyone expected quite a spectacular car crash.


----------



## Grigori

Hello KittenKong. Hello Noushka05. I meet you for second time. Thank you for writing of shame of members insult. You have good hearts.
Hello Magyarmum. It is nice to meet you but I do not know for my reaction. I am sorry to tell you it is not true only one member make insult.
Member Stockwellcat give support for bad joke member Satori make but support is gone now insult is subject. I do not write more for subject. Thank you
Hello Cheekyscrip. It is nice to meet you also. Almas and Mamont is great happiness.
I read all brexit here and find my own thought. One day we have KGB for control of our thoughts and words but now KGB is gone. England do not have no need for KGB because you have newspaper and citizens to tell you thoughts. I am sorry your country have great problem and struggle.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> So No Deal is a no deal?


Yes


> Which is worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.


Remain is now completely off the table.


> Backstop is to protect Good Friday agreement


DUP said it. Nowhere in the Good Friday agreement does it mention about a border in Ireland. UK doesn't want a border Republic and EU do.


> Unfortunately this vote is not binding for EU.


These votes gave May a mandate from the UK Parliament to reopen the withdrawal agreement and renegotiate the Back Stop and made UK law last night.


> Do people understand at all why we need Customs Union?


No point whimpering over spilt milk. There isn't going to be a Customs Union. Parliament voted against having one (Corbyn's amendment was rejected).



> Only few MPs are happy to take a gamble on the future of the entire nation.


Parliament voted to move on and take this gamble. Every MP across the UK had a chance to vote and have their voice heard last night.


> Failed No Deal means riots , chaos


Really?


----------



## noushka05

We are so screwed. History will be damning to the brextremists!

*Will Hutton*‏ @williamnhutton
_There is so much to deplore about Brexit. But most deplorable is how the rupturing of a 45 year relationship and the trashing of the soul of our country is being driven solely to keep the Tory party together. So short-sighted and tribal. 
It will never be forgiven._

*David Schneider*‏:
_Today has proved yet again that if a group of people had sat down and worked out how to destroy Britain from within, they could not have come up with a better plan than Brexit_.

.


----------



## noushka05

And sadly most of them will have been against brexit with many not even given the chance to vote for their own futures.

*Alex Wickham*‏:
_'Worst case scenario' sees 150,000 expats returning in year 1, including 30,000 in the first 3 months, and another 100,000 in year 2 Source says there will be little record of some returners and they could fall victim to hostile environment policies._

*A Government Memo Said A No-Deal "Brexodus" Could See 250,000 Expats Returning To The UK*
Around 40% of the returning expats would be pensioners, placing fresh strains on the NHS and already-stretched social care services

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/no-deal-250000-ex-pats


----------



## noushka05

You'd have to be wilfully blind to fail to see this!.

*James O'Brien*‏:
_Is it this simple? May can't blame the disaster on the people who caused the disaster because it would finish the party. So she's conspiring with the people who caused the disaster to blame the disaster on the EU, secure in the support of media which helped cause the disaster._


----------



## noushka05

What a state this country is in. How on earth can anyone feel 'pride' in it?

...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Grigori said:


> Member Stockwellcat give support for bad joke member Satori make but support is gone now insult is subject. I do not write more for subject.


Excuse me I did not say anything and therefore did not give support for or to anything. Are you trying to cause trouble on here? Don't drag me into your drama.

You come onto a PF and wade into two of the most contentious subjects on here. Seems a bit suspicious and odd to me.

Welcome by the way to *Pet* Forums.


----------



## noushka05

Grigori said:


> Hello KittenKong. Hello Noushka05. I meet you for second time. Thank you for writing of shame of members insult. You have good hearts.
> Hello Magyarmum. It is nice to meet you but I do not know for my reaction. I am sorry to tell you it is not true only one member make insult.
> Member Stockwellcat give support for bad joke member Satori make but support is gone now insult is subject. I do not write more for subject. Thank you
> Hello Cheekyscrip. It is nice to meet you also. Almas and Mamont is great happiness.
> I read all brexit here and find my own thought. One day we have KGB for control of our thoughts and words but now KGB is gone. England do not have no need for KGB because you have newspaper and citizens to tell you thoughts. I am sorry your country have great problem and struggle.


Oh I've only just spotted this. Its good to meet you again too Grigori  Please ignore any insults & join the debate, all members have just as much right to voice their opinions on here. You are quite correct about our media - it must be the most untrustworthy in the West. The media have been complicit in this brexit shambles. Our democracy is dying with a whimper not a bang.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Published yesterday ...
> 
> *UK nationals living in the EU/EEA and Switzerland: Healthcare*
> Information on healthcare for UK nationals living in the European Union (EU), the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland if the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 29 March.
> 
> The government has, or is seeking, agreements with countries in the EU/EEA and Switzerland on the continuation of healthcare arrangements for UK nationals after 29 March.
> 
> Your access to healthcare may change if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.
> 
> There are steps you may have to take now to prepare. This will differ according to the country you are living in.
> 
> *Register for healthcare*
> If you are eligible, register for healthcare under the local rules of the country you live in. You may have to be a long-term legal resident or pay social security contributions to access free or discounted healthcare in the EU/EEA country.
> 
> It is recommended that you get health insurance while you are applying for residency.
> 
> *Health insurance*
> You may need to buy healthcare insurance in the country you live in so you can receive the healthcare treatment you need.
> 
> etc.​
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nati...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
> 
> Let's hope this gets sorted in the next 2 months.


I honestly thought that Switzerland weren't part of this. They didn't seem to be when they practically held me hostage whilst my partner went to find a card to pay for my treatment.

You learn something new every day - shame it might not be correct for very long


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Excuse me I did not say anything and therefore did not give support for or to anything. Are you trying to cause trouble on here? Don't drag me into your drama.
> 
> You come onto a PF and wade into two of the most contentious debates on here. Seems a bit suspicious and odd to me.
> 
> Welcome by the way to *Pet* Forums.


Unless my eyes deceived my, you 'liked' said post. The like has gone now. I believe that is what Grigori is referring to. Its not the first time you've been rude to members who have joined this thread & made the same accusations towards them.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> Excuse me I did not say anything and therefore did not give support for or to anything. Are you trying to cause trouble on here? Don't drag me into your drama.
> 
> You come onto a PF and wade into two of the most contentious subjects on here. Seems a bit suspicious and odd to me.
> 
> Welcome by the way to *Pet* Forums.


I have to confess that I had suspicions about joining and immediately posting on the climate change and Brexit threads, but I did choose not to say anything.

I'm happy to be proved wrong though, and will apologise for my cynicism.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Unless my eyes deceived my, you 'liked' said post. The like has gone now. I believe that is what Grigori is referring to. Its not the first time you've been rude to members who have joined this thread & made the same accusations towards them.


I realised what Satori said and removed the like as I found what he said to be wrong. I apologise to Grigori for liking that post. I haven't been rude to Grigori at all. I have voiced that I am rather somewhat suspicious as he has waded into two of the most contentious subjects on here and nowhere else. You have been suspicious about people before posting on PF and called them out.

Anything else you want to approach to me about as I will be happy to clear things up (feel free to PM and I would be happy to sort any problems out you have with me).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Remain is now completely off the table.


Remain - unlikely though it is - is no more off the table than it was before yesterday's Parliamentary nonsense.

May herself made clear in her initial speech that the outcome of the so-called 'negotiations' will be brought back to the Commons on 13th February, after which there will be another (and probably final) chance to put forward amendments / options and to vote on them.

If No Deal is the only extant option then A50 can still be extended or revoked. The fact remains that No Deal is the least popular outcome in Parliament and they still have the power to do something about it. They are all well aware that it is only the ERG idiots who support such a result.


----------



## emmaviolet

Channel four news unicorns.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090351132667449344
Sky news unicorns.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090366915078426625
Yeah, I wasn't wrong, I just actually listen and watch the news, thank you very much.


----------



## Arnie83

I will also add my welcome to @Grigori

I tried to learn Russian many years ago but was so bad at it that most of my oral examination was conducted in French! So I can say that your English is very much better than my Russian ever was, and your perfect spelling is incredible!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Remain - unlikely though it is - is no more off the table than it was before yesterday's Parliamentary nonsense.
> 
> May herself made clear in her initial speech that the outcome of the so-called 'negotiations' will be brought back to the Commons on 13th February, after which there will be another (and probably final) chance to put forward amendments / options and to vote on them.
> 
> If No Deal is the only extant option then A50 can still be extended or revoked. The fact remains that No Deal is the least popular outcome in Parliament and they still have the power to do something about it. They are all well aware that it is only the ERG idiots who support such a result.


Article 50 extension amendment was rejected by Parliament yesterday. So was the Customs Union option and none of the amendments were remain options so remain is off the table. No deal is still on the table as the relevant amendments to stop no deal were rejected as well by Parliament.

The vote on the 13th February is a final vote on the deal no amendments. Last night was the final time MP's could amend the deal and that was said several times yesterday by MP's.


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Channel four news unicorns.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090351132667449344
> Sky news unicorns.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090366915078426625
> Yeah, I wasn't wrong, I just actually listen and watch the news, thank you very much.


Not fair to ask you, because you just posted the link, but have you - *or anyone* - got a link to where Michel Barnier said (as per Raab above) that an Irish hard border could be avoided without regulatory alignment? I can't find it ...


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Article 50 extension amendment was rejected by Parliament yesterday. So was the Customs Union option and none of the amendments were remain options so remain is off the table. No deal is still on the table as the relevant amendments to stop no deal were rejected as well by Parliament.
> 
> The vote on the 13th February is a final vote on the deal no amendments. Last night was the final time MP's could amend the deal and that was said several times yesterday by MP's.


You are mistaken.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> You are mistaken.


No I am not. I watched it all unfold last night. Remain is definitely off the table. Although I know you will go out of your way to try and defend what you are saying.

Article 50 extension rejected last night.
Corbyn's amendment for a Customs Union and alternatives rejected.
Attempts to stop no deal amendments (there was 4 attempts at this one from SNP) rejected by Parliament.
And a swathe of other attempts to extend article 50 etc rejected.

MP's had their final chance last night to amend the deal and they were fully aware of that.

Any how I am not sitting here arguing all day. Have fun.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Remain - unlikely though it is - is no more off the table than it was before yesterday's Parliamentary nonsense.


Now I don't profess to understand the way parliament works, but how could all those amendments get rejected when the 'deal' was rejected in such a fashion.

It's a bit confusing.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not. I watched it all unfold last night. Remain is definitely off the table. Although I know you will go out of your way to try and defend what you are saying.
> 
> Article 50 extension rejected last night.
> Corbyn's amendment for a Customs Union and alternatives rejected.
> Attempts to stop no deal amendments (there was 4 attempts at this one from SNP) rejected by Parliament.
> And a swathe of other attempts to extend article 50 etc rejected.
> 
> *MP's had their final chance last night to amend the deal and they were fully aware of that.*
> 
> Any how I am not sitting here arguing all day. Have fun.


There is no argument. This is from the Hansard record of yesterday's debate.

*The Prime Minister*

*I know that some Members have been concerned that this debate could be the last chance to vote on their desire to avoid a no deal, so I want to reassure the House that it is not.*

First of all, as I have said, we will bring a revised deal back to this House for a second meaningful vote as soon as we possibly can. While we will want the House to support that deal, if it did not, we would-just as before-table *an amendable motion for debate the next day*. Furthermore, if we have not brought a revised deal back to this House by Wednesday 13 February, we will make a statement and, again, *table an amendable motion for debate the next day*. *So the House will have a further opportunity to revisit this question of leaving without a deal.* Today, we can and must instead focus all our efforts on securing a good deal with the EU that enables us to leave in a smooth and orderly way on 29 March.​
No options were removed from the table. Not even No Deal, despite Spellman's amendment, which specifically rejects a No Deal Brexit, being passed.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> What a state this country is in. How on earth can anyone feel 'pride' in it?
> 
> ...


I'm loving it here in Spain. Not one has questioned our country of origin and have met a few nice Dutch people too.

Pity I have commitments back in the UK as otherwise I'd stay here. I feel much more at home.

By the time I retire perhaps the UK will have self destructed with England and Wales, having lost Scotland and NI begging on their hands and knees to rejoin the EU.

The UK, what it's become, disgusts me.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Not fair to ask you, because you just posted the link, but have you - *or anyone* - got a link to where Michel Barnier said (as per Raab above) that an Irish hard border could be avoided without regulatory alignment? I can't find it ...


Ah, I don't think I could even produce that.
Maybe best to tweet a tory MP, perhaps they will be able to backup their own claims.....


----------



## emmaviolet

The situation we are in now is even more ridiculous, so I can't quite understand any Brexiteer celebrating last nights farce.

May instructed her MPs to vote against her own deal she's been pushing, and they voted for the backstop to be replaced with.............. something else, unspecified, but in their minds this alternative is better, but it has no name, no regulation and no idea of what it even is.

OK, yeah, huge win that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Not even No Deal, despite Spellman's amendment, which specifically rejects a No Deal Brexit, being passed.


The Spellman's amendment has no influence in law. It gives MP's a non binding vote, nothing else. This was explained last night.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Now I don't profess to understand the way parliament works, but how could all those amendments get rejected when the 'deal' was rejected in such a fashion.
> 
> It's a bit confusing.


It was mostly a chance for the Tories to send a message to the EU of what would actually get May's Deal over the line in the Commons. I have to say it seems unlikely to me that the EU will change its red line on the Irish backstop, any more than May will change her red line on the Customs Union (which is the other way to avoid a hard border).

But the rejection of most amendments yesterday doesn't stop similar ones being attached to future bills, as per May's speech reproduced above.


----------



## rona

I see the EU are trying to screw NZ and us in the same process. Flexing it's muscles and going back on a deal


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Ah, I don't think I could even produce that.
> Maybe best to tweet a tory MP, *perhaps they will be able to backup their own claims*.....


Well there's a first time for everything!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The Spellman's amendment has no influence in law. It gives MP's a non binding vote, nothing else. This was explained last night.


Which is why I said No Deal was not off the table. Just like every other option. They are all still there.

I think what did actually become more likely was a 3 month extension to A50. This isn't going to be resolved in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Why do she think the EU will change their minds, she and all 27 signed a deal and that's legal document, you can't just say I want to change it now, and the EU don't look doing it away.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I see the EU are trying to screw NZ and us in the same process. Flexing it's muscles and going back on a deal


Haven't seen anything about that - can you link to a source?


----------



## noushka05

How could anyone support this recklessness?

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford 2h2 hours ago
"_In terms of severe risks to public safety, by far the greatest concern is the availability of medicines, devices & clinical supplies_." - 
An NHS Trust CEO's fears for No Deal.

It is utterly inexcusable for @theresa_may to endanger patients in this way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47051031

,,,,,


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> There is no argument. This is from the Hansard record of yesterday's debate.
> 
> *The Prime Minister*
> 
> *I know that some Members have been concerned that this debate could be the last chance to vote on their desire to avoid a no deal, so I want to reassure the House that it is not.*
> 
> First of all, as I have said, we will bring a revised deal back to this House for a second meaningful vote as soon as we possibly can. While we will want the House to support that deal, if it did not, we would-just as before-table *an amendable motion for debate the next day*. Furthermore, if we have not brought a revised deal back to this House by Wednesday 13 February, we will make a statement and, again, *table an amendable motion for debate the next day*. *So the House will have a further opportunity to revisit this question of leaving without a deal.* Today, we can and must instead focus all our efforts on securing a good deal with the EU that enables us to leave in a smooth and orderly way on 29 March.​
> No options were removed from the table. Not even No Deal, despite Spellman's amendment, which specifically rejects a No Deal Brexit, being passed.


I reckon someone needs to explain to the whole sorry shower of Our Glorious Leaders that 'negotiating a deal no-one supports' and 'supporting no-deal' aren't the same thing...


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Why do she think the EU will change their minds, she and all 27 signed a deal and that's legal document, you can't just say I want to change it now, and the EU don't look doing it away.


She doesn't. Its a ploy by her brexit fanatics to pin a no deal on the EU. This >>>

They will frame it as "we sent PM to the EU with a viable deal. Obstinate EU fanatics refused to accept it. Not *our* fault we now have to do 'No Deal'".

This is the ERG's happy place - power without responsibility.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> Why do she think the EU will change their minds, she and all 27 signed a deal and that's legal document, you can't just say I want to change it now, and the EU don't look doing it away.


She won't be able to change the deal. I said that last night and I am saying it now. Her running to Brussels is a waste of time. The Deal on the table will be voted on again with no alterations with a clause saying if you reject this deal there is no other deal and so rejecting the deal this time will mean no deal. Guaranteed this is what will happen. This will come from the EU not the UK Government and be in the future relationship part of the withdrawal agreement as this is the only amendable part of the agreement.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Well let's hope the Hungarian government don't spring any nasty surprises on you, or other governments on anyone else!


I'm surprised at your reaction Arnie!

Why would the Hungarian or any other EU government "spring any nasty surprises" on UK citizens living in the EU? Unless of course you think they would do so in order to punish the UK for leaving the EU? But then if the EU is the ethical organisation many believe it to be, they wouldn't allow their members to discriminate against us and for example, treat us in the way the Rohingya or other ethnic groups, have been treated - or maybe you don't have such faith in the EU?

I'm fairly certain that on March 29 none of us ex pats are going to suddenly turn into little green men with a horn in the middle of our foreheads to mark us out as special cases that should be treated as such! Rather, our status will simply alter from that of being an EU citizen to being a third country one and as such we will have to fall in line with the law regarding that status.

AS I said before I doubt the Hungarian Government will take drastic measures against the mere 6000 UK citizens living in their country considering they could be putting the lives and future of the nearly 100,000 Hungarians living in the UK at risk if they did.


----------



## noushka05

*Colette Browne*‏: Today's column: How best to explain the madness that has gripped the House of Commons? Look to the Middle Ages and the mysterious case of the meowing nuns. https://www.independent.ie/opinion/...phe-is-something-to-be-welcomed-37764197.html

*'May is now kowtowing to deluded zealots for **whom a crash-out catastrophe is something to be welcomed'*


----------



## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I see the EU are trying to screw NZ and us in the same process. Flexing it's muscles and going back on a deal


I wonder if the UK and NZ will strike a deal then and NZ fob the EU off (tell them no thanks)?


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> I wonder if the UK and NZ will strike a deal then and NZ fob the EU off (tell them no thanks)?


Logically highly unlikely. The EU is a much bigger trading zone with far more potential customers. It'd be like saying to a national retail chain who is keen to stock your product you'd rather sell to the local corner shop


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> She doesn't. Its a ploy by her brexit fanatics to pin a no deal on the EU. This >>>
> 
> They will frame it as "we sent PM to the EU with a viable deal. Obstinate EU fanatics refused to accept it. Not *our* fault we now have to do 'No Deal'".
> 
> This is the ERG's happy place - power without responsibility.
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Yes, exactly. The morons who think this is 'tough' from our government will fail to notice that there was no alternative given, nothing at all by way of proposal to the alternative that they've voted for.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I'm surprised at your reaction Arnie!
> 
> Why would the Hungarian or any other EU government "spring any nasty surprises" on UK citizens living in the EU? Unless of course you think they would do so in order to punish the UK for leaving the EU? But then if the EU is the ethical organisation many believe it to be, they wouldn't allow their members to discriminate against us and for example, treat us in the way the Rohingya or other ethnic groups, have been treated - *or maybe you don't have such faith in the EU?*
> 
> I'm fairly certain that on March 29 none of us ex pats are going to suddenly turn into little green men with a horn in the middle of our foreheads to mark us out as special cases that should be treated as such! Rather, our status will simply alter from that of being an EU citizen to being a third country one and as such we will have to fall in line with the law regarding that status.
> 
> AS I said before I doubt the Hungarian Government will take drastic measures against the mere 6000 UK citizens living in their country considering they could be putting the lives and future of the nearly 100,000 Hungarians living in the UK at risk if they did.


I have no reason to think that there will be problems on this score, but I prefer not to make assumptions.

If I am right in thinking that you think that I don't think the EU is anything but perfect and magnanimous in every way then I think you need to re-evaluate your thinking!


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Yes, exactly. The morons who think this is 'tough' from our government will fail to notice that there was no alternative given, nothing at all by way of proposal to the alternative that they've voted for.


There are currently two ways to avoid a hard border; the EU can soften its red line on a backstop, or the UK can soften its red line on a Customs Union. Parliament demanded that the EU should be the ones to move and will blame them for intransigence and bullying if they don't.

That the Brexiteers don't even consider that the UK red line might be questioned smacks of the thinking that is not only reflective of their arrogance but is also what got us into this mess in the first place.


----------



## kimthecat

Grigori introduced himself in the Introductions section and received a warm welcome from Members. He received _one_ mocking post from an idiot on this thread.
It seems remainers are using this incident and exaggerating it to accuse Leavers of racism .
It's hard to take some Remainers seriously when they keep exaggerating their claims.

People in all countries will take the micky out of people's attempts to speak the language .


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I have no reason to think that there will be problems on this score, but I prefer not to make assumptions.
> 
> If I am right in thinking that you think that I don't think the EU is anything but perfect and magnanimous in every way then I think you need to re-evaluate your thinking!


No you're not right! I was simply asking a question. I don't profess to being a mind reader!

Like you I try not to make assumptions, but having lived in Hungary for over 11 years I think I'm in a better position to gauge the Hungarian Government's sentiments (for lack of a better word) towards the UK, than many people who live outside the country.


----------



## Elles

A lot of name calling this morning.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> The UK, what it's become, disgusts me.


Just move then, if you hate it so damn much.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just move then, if you hate it so damn much.


It's not that easy..... any more.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Theresa May, and consequently our country, is in a bit of a pickle now with the EU adamant to not open up discussions on the deal. I am starting to agree more and more with that Dyson guy. That the EU is impossible to work with and unwilling to bend and compromise.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> It's not that easy..... any more.


I know, but if your feelings were that strong and felt the need to say it every other post, you would find a way.

editing to say I don't mean you in particular just the person I was quoting


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Theresa May, and consequently our country, is in a bit of a pickle now with the EU adamant to not open up discussions on the deal. I am starting to agree more and more with that Dyson guy. That the EU is impossible to work with and unwilling to bend and compromise.


I don't see how they can 'bend or compromise' on this. It's in place to protect the peace process, which they (rightly) believe to be more important then brexiteers throwing their toys out of the pram.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Theresa May, and consequently our country, is in a bit of a pickle now with the EU adamant to not open up discussions on the deal. I am starting to agree more and more with that Dyson guy. That the EU is impossible to work with and unwilling to bend and compromise.


The EU agreed a deal with the UK Prime Minister.

Now the UK Prime Minister is going back to the EU and demanding that they drop their red line backstop.

The UK Prime Minister is flatly refusing to drop her No Customs Union red line.

And you think that it's the _EU_ who is impossible to work with and unwilling to bend and compromise?


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> I know, but if your feelings were that strong and felt the need to say it every other post, you would find a way.
> 
> editing to say I don't mean you in particular just the person I was quoting


To be quite honest, I disagree with your post entirely.

I hate that rhetoric of 'if you don't like it, move'. I feel it's an entirely lazy argument. If you live in a country, you are free to express how unhappy you are with the government or the direction in which the country is changing.

I am ashamed of this country, if you see what is really happening, people sleeping rough on the streets, the abuse a black, woman MP gets daily because of the colour of her skin, the inequality growing so the poor are truly getting poorer while the rich, so much richer. 
If you are paying attention and are not ashamed, maybe the problem doesn't lie with those who are.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> the abuse a black, woman MP gets daily because of the colour of her skin,


No she is just a bumbling fool, consistently saying the wrong thing and making a mockery of her party.



emmaviolet said:


> If you are paying attention and are not ashamed, maybe the problem doesn't lie with those who are


I am paying attention and the situation is getting worse in the UK, as it has been for a while. I am unhappy with the way many parts of this country are run, how certain things are dealt with, especially the NHS. BUT that does not make me ashamed of my country or being British and want to bash down everything the government tries to do.

The 'you can move' argument is quite lazy on my part I know, but it still stands that you can. Thinking that Spain is the place that keeps on giving is delusional.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> The EU agreed a deal with the UK Prime Minister.
> 
> Now the UK Prime Minister is going back to the EU and demanding that they drop their red line backstop.
> 
> The UK Prime Minister is flatly refusing to drop her No Customs Union red line.
> 
> And you think that it's the _EU_ who is impossible to work with and unwilling to bend and compromise?


This is where both sides need to compromise, also with fishing agreements etc we have been rinsed by the EU and they seem unwilling to budge on areas like this also.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> She is just a bumbling fool, consistently saying the wrong thing and making a mockery of her party.


She is also an unashamed hypocrite (I assume we are talking about DA).


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> She is also an unashamed hypocrite (I assume we are talking about DA).


Yarp, she's the one being touted as a victim of racism.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> No she is just a bumbling fool, consistently saying the wrong thing and making a mockery of her party.
> 
> I am paying attention and the situation is getting worse in the UK, as it has been for a while. I am unhappy with the way many parts of this country are run, how certain things are dealt with, especially the NHS. BUT that does not make me ashamed of my country or being British and want to bash down everything the government tries to do.
> 
> The 'you can move' argument is quite lazy on my part I know, but it still stands that you can. Thinking that Spain is the place that keeps on giving is delusional.


'A bumbling fool' so pretty much the same as most of the Tory party, yet it's been proven that she's the most abused MP. The things directed towards her are racially charged, there's no question, to ignore it is at best naive, at worse to go along and agree with racism. You think that the difference between her and Liz Truss is that different, yet she received half of all abuse directed at female MP's. I don't feel she is an idiot, she got some things wrong at a time, but show me an MP who hasn't.
The same stands for David Lammy, he is subjected to immense racist abuse.

That's your personal right, to not be ashamed of the country, I agree with the previous poster, I am ashamed.

You can carry on with your lazy argument, and yes I can move, and if I did move, I would still be ashamed of this country, as is my right. Telling people if they don't like it, move, is lazy and is also not facing up to what's happening here.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Yarp, she's the one being touted as a victim of racism.


She actually IS a victim of racism though. Are you seriously saying she hasn't received racist abuse?


----------



## AlexPed2393

It is not just what DA says but how she says it, how she doesn't use eye contact, how she constantly slouches, so many things make her a not very likeable or easy to associate with MP. Not that she is black. She has made errors, as have other MP's yet she manages to always make them on a big stage at key political moments. This means she is at risk to the most abuse, some of which is terrible and racially charged I agree.

But she does not help herself in any way


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just move then, if you hate it so damn much.


ouch......


----------



## emmaviolet

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rassment-national-police-chiefs-a8612351.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...alls-for-twitter-to-clamp-down-on-hate-speech

https://news.sky.com/story/diane-abbott-twitter-must-act-over-abuse-targeting-black-women-11584785

'touted as a victim of racism'


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> She actually IS a victim of racism though. Are you seriously saying she hasn't received racist abuse?


I'll edit to say she is the victim of racist abuse by the extreme minority against her. As is the same for a lot of people ion a lot of situations, the select extreme minority take things too far


----------



## Calvine

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12029702.abbott-denies-attack-on-nurses-was-racist/

DA has more than once been accused of racism herself though . . . of which, just one example here.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Haven't seen anything about that - can you link to a source?


Not sure if this is what Rona is referring to. I don't even begin to pretend to understand all of this but it seems NZ are not entirely happy with either the EU or UK.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12198590


----------



## emmaviolet

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rassment-national-police-chiefs-a8612351.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...alls-for-twitter-to-clamp-down-on-hate-speech

https://news.sky.com/story/diane-abbott-twitter-must-act-over-abuse-targeting-black-women-11584785

'touted as a victim of racism


AlexPed2393 said:


> It is not just what DA says but how she says it, how she doesn't use eye contact, how she constantly slouches, so many things make her a not very likeable or easy to associate with MP. Not that she is black. She has made errors, as have other MP's yet she manages to always make them on a big stage at key political moments. This means she is at risk to the most abuse, some of which is terrible and racially charged I agree.
> 
> *But she does not help herself in any way*


Victim blaming the black woman for daring to be black and be herself.

Theresa May makes huge errors on the biggest stages, carries herself strangely and won't even meet with voters, the election showed her up to be an inept politician, she doesn't receive as much abuse.

Liz Truss conducts herself in a strange way. Many other women MP's can come across an not likeable. Many men do, JRM, Boris (there's a bumbling idiot for you), Gove David Davis, Liam Fox......

Then there's the fact that she actually has targeted racial abuse and slurs thrown at her. I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong to deny it and if you truly believe what you have just posted, if you don't believe she is a victim of racial abuse, even though I've just provided articles that show it, even though you can search her name on twitter and it's an endless barrage of racial hate, with many racist tropes thrown in for good measure. If you still can't see it, then I am wasting my time and shan't bother to engage further.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> Then there's the fact that she actually has targeted racial abuse and slurs thrown at her. I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong to deny it and if you truly believe what you have just posted, if you don't believe she is a victim of racial abuse, even though I've just provided articles that show it, even though you can search her name on twitter and it's an endless barrage of racial hate, with many racist tropes thrown in for good measure. If you still can't see it, then I am wasting my time and shan't bother to engage further.


Please read my last post 

Victim blaming?? Come on now I'm not saying she isn't likeable because of the colour of her skin, as I said 


AlexPed2393 said:


> It is not just what DA says but how she says it, how she doesn't use eye contact, how she constantly slouches, so many things make her a not very likeable or easy to associate with MP. Not that she is black


Theresa may got shredded for her goofy dancing and all sorts on social media, same with Boris etc, I bet they didn't even think of looking at their twitter feeds as they knew it would be a torrent of abuse.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'll edit to say she is the victim of racist abuse by the extreme minority against her. As is the same for a lot of people ion a lot of situations, the select extreme minority take things too far


Except it's not a minority


AlexPed2393 said:


> Please read my last post
> 
> Victim blaming?? Come on now I'm not saying she isn't likeable because of the colour of her skin, as I said
> 
> Theresa may got shredded for her goofy dancing and all sorts on social media, same with Boris etc, I bet they didn't even think of looking at their twitter feeds as they knew it would be a torrent of abuse.


Yes, blaming her for not conducting herself in a way that is pleasing to you and saying she isn't helping herself, is the definition of victim blaming. Saying that she slouches and that in any way contributes to the abuse she gets, is again, victim blaming. May has a hell of a slouch on her, I don't see you commenting on that.

It's not just her looking at the feed, it's been verified that she received half of the online abuse directed towards women MP's during the election. All for one woman.

And it's more than shredding someone over a silly dance, it's actual abuse, but you know that.

Have a look further into racism, dog whistle racism and racist tropes, it's not all calling someone the N word or not, racism contributes to the abuse she gets, there's no question. Have a read of some of the articles I posted, it explains it on a basic level.


----------



## Calvine

emmaviolet said:


> it explains it on a basic level.


Patronising or what . . . having read his posts, I don't think @AlexPed2393 needs you to bring things down to a ''basic'' level. I had you on ignore for some time for doing the same to me, took you off, but will now adjust my settings accordingly (so don't bother to reply please as I won't see it).


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> Patronising or what . . . having read his posts, I don't think @AlexPed2393 needs you to bring things down to a ''basic'' level. I had you on ignore for some time for doing the same to me, took you off, but will now adjust my settings accordingly (so don't bother to reply please).


Thank you.

The article does explain it on basic levels, I wasn't insulting the poster in any way, it was a summery of the article, which hasn't delved into the huge issue of what racism even is.

However to deny DA suffers abuse for her race, which has actually been proven, if anyone believes she is merely 'touted as a victim' of racial abuse, then the articles can come in handy.

Again, thank you for putting me on ignore, clearly on here you're not making a point unless someone has you on ignore, although why people need to make a show of it all is beyond me. It seems this thread is half full of people telling each other they are sticking them on ignore.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Corbyn bleeting on about bringing people together in PMQ's. He himself only agreed to meet with the PM last night. He also got that wrong about no deal no longer being on the table because the motion that was voted on last night is non binding so no deal stays on the table and is still an option. I would love to a fly on the wall in Downing Street later when Corbyn and May have their long awaited meeting.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> However to deny DA suffers abuse for her race, which has actually been proven, if anyone believes she is merely 'touted as a victim' of racial abuse, then the articles can come in handy.


Please again read my post in regards to the abuse she is getting.



emmaviolet said:


> Again, thank you for putting me on ignore, clearly on here you're not making a point unless someone has you on ignore.


Calm it down a few notches, goes to everyone really. I know what racism is, your post sounded a little patronising but I understand why you wrote it that way as it is hard to not come across as patronising in some conversations. no matter who is saying it


----------



## AlexPed2393

stockwellcat. said:


> Corbyn bleeting on about bringing people together in PMQ's. He himself only agreed to meet with the PM last night. He also got that wrong about no deal no longer being on the table because the motion that was voted on last night is non binding so no deal stays on the table and is still an option. I would love to a fly on the wall in Downing Street later when Corbyn and May have their long awaited meeting.


They are probably best buddies loving a cup of early grey and some rich tea biscuits


----------



## Elles

Theresa May gets abuse. I don’t like Diane Abbot as a politician. She comes across really badly imo, so does Jeremy Corbyn. Diane because it takes her 10 minutes to say anything and she never looks ahead, which, I’m embarrassed to admit I find irritating and Corbyn because he gets angry and shouts and as a previously abused woman, men getting angry and shouting frightens me and makes me very uncomfortable. Plus I don’t agree with their politics.

I don’t disagree that Diane is subjected to racist and other abuse and that is abhorrent and for that I do sympathise. I think the reason she may appear to get more abuse than some others though is probably 50/50. Racists would attack her anyway. She’s a woman and black, so she’s fair game to them, but she also comes across badly and some think that makes her fair game too. It’s not all about racism. 

Theresa May has been accused of being a fascist and had the same kind of idiots walking the street carrying a noose and wanting to hang her. I don’t think we can say TM isn’t subjected to threats and abuse.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Please again read my post in regards to the abuse she is getting.
> 
> Calm it down a few notches, goes to everyone really. I know what racism is, your post sounded a little patronising but I understand why you wrote it that way as it is hard to not come across as patronising in some conversations. no matter who is saying it


I have read your posts, you said the following....

Yarp, she's the one being touted as a victim of racism.

This very post implies you don't understand racism fully.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> I have read your posts, you said the following....
> 
> Yarp, she's the one being touted as a victim of racism.
> 
> This very post implies you don't understand racism fully.


I'm sort of agreeing with you. Sort of



AlexPed2393 said:


> I'll edit to say she is the victim of racist abuse by the extreme minority against her. As is the same for a lot of people ion a lot of situations, the select extreme minority take things too far


----------



## Elles

emmaviolet said:


> I have read your posts, you said the following....
> 
> Yarp, she's the one being touted as a victim of racism.
> 
> This very post implies you don't understand racism fully.


It did and I agreed with you.

Looks like AlexPed2393 agrees with you too.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> This is where both sides need to compromise, also with fishing agreements etc we have been rinsed by the EU and they seem unwilling to budge on areas like this also.


We should not forget that the EU made a huge concession by agreeing that the whole of the UK, and not just NI - as they initially proposed - could stay in the Customs Union should the backstop be required. It puts us in a better position than full fee-paying members of the EU, and is why the EU want the arrangement to be as short as possible, and preferably not required at all.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> It did and I agreed with you.
> 
> Looks like AlexPed2393 agrees with you too.


:Angelic


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> They are probably best buddies loving a cup of early grey and some rich tea biscuits


More like opening a bottle of gin and having a few drinks trying to get each other to lighten up a little.


----------



## Elles

Talking of gin. Did everyone get Wetherspoonnews U.K. edition through their letterbox? It just dropped through mine.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Please read my last post
> 
> Victim blaming?? Come on now I'm not saying she isn't likeable because of the colour of her skin, as I said
> 
> Theresa may got shredded for her goofy dancing and all sorts on social media, same with Boris etc, I bet they didn't even think of looking at their twitter feeds as they knew it would be a torrent of abuse.


There is something of a difference between getting shredded for bad dancing and getting abuse just for being who you are, though. 

By all means criticise a politician for mistakes, underperformance, or things they can actually control. A bit of general ribbing for less important foibles (such as bad dancing, or Boris's hairdresser really needing to change the blade on the lawnmower  ) is also acceptable to my mind as long as it is done with decorum. Out and out namecalling for skin colour, being a woman or other elements which really shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things, though, is something we should all refuse to tolerate. Why should I care if someone has a slouch (which could easily be medical) or doesn't make eye contact (I'm autistic, and many autistic people don't like making eye contact)?

Incidentally, if anyone wishes to experience first hand the kind of abuse you can get just for being a woman, try playing an online game (preferably of the military combat variety) with a female sounding handle. I think you'll find it an interesting experience.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Talking of gin. Did everyone get Wetherspoonnews U.K. edition through their letterbox? It just dropped through mine.


I will get my copy when I nip to whetherpoons later. Haven't had one through my letter box.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Talking of gin. Did everyone get Wetherspoonnews U.K. edition through their letterbox? It just dropped through mine.


Not yet. Not sure I will, we don't have one of their dives near us.

If I do, it will be interesting to go through it with a red pen and correct all the factual errors, I suspect...


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> Not sure if this is what Rona is referring to. I don't even begin to pretend to understand all of this but it seems NZ are not entirely happy with either the EU or UK.
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12198590


Thanks for posting.

Rona was blaming the EU, while the article shows New Zealand complaining about both the EU and the UK, so I'm not sure if it is what she had in mind. Perhaps she will confirm.

The issue of the split of current quotas between the EU and the UK after Brexit has been rumbling for a while, and the last I heard the EU were saying it was too complicated to sort out without going through the WTO's Article 28 process (iirc), which would take a long time. Looks like they / we have been a bit preemptive, but with 2 months to go I'm not conversant enough with it to know what else might be done.


----------



## Magyarmum

*NEWS THUMP

Wednesday 30 January 2019 by Davywavy*

*Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it*









*In dramatic scenes last night, Parliament voted for Theresa May to return to Brussels and repeat their offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it.*

The EU has repeatedly rejected the proposals because they're a bit slow and obviously didn't understand them the first time, but senior figures within parliament are confident that loudly saying 'SPEAKEE ENGLISHEE' will break the deadlock.

"The first time we explained the deal we're after, Michel Barnier just cupped one ear and said 'Que?', so we think there's room for movement there," said MP Simon Williams.

"All Theresa May has to do to make Parliament happy is get the deal we have been specifically told isn't on the table - and she can do that by raising her voice and enunciating ev-er-y syl-lab-ble. Like that," he added.

"If I were Prime Minister I would have done it by now. It would have been dead easy, but I know how to talk to foreigners as I holiday in the Peloponnese every year."

Theresa May is to return to Brussels this morning with a dead and empty expression behind her eyes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I can just imagine the EU saying, *On no*, not that Bloody Women again, doesn't she understand english, we aren't changing the deal, it been signed and that's it. If she phones we are out.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> *Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *In dramatic scenes last night, Parliament voted for Theresa May to return to Brussels and repeat their offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it.*


:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws said:


> I can just imagine the EU saying, *On no*, not that Bloody Women again, doesn't she understand english, we aren't changing the deal, it been signed and that's it. If she phones we are out.


Saw this on FB which sums it up rather nicely:


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> Patronising or what . . . having read his posts, I don't think @AlexPed2393 needs you to bring things down to a ''basic'' level. I had you on ignore for some time for doing the same to me, took you off, but will now adjust my settings accordingly (so don't bother to reply please).


Oh, and you was the poster who was quite patronising of me for my use of the term unicorn in a political thread, and how my startling use of it was what surprised a poster into being rude to me, even though it was widely used, and today and yesterday all political correspondents have used the exact same terminology. 
So I'm even more thankful for the ignore now.


----------



## Elles

Lol. May as well leave with no deal and start again. Seems they’re never going to agree.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*European papers lose patience with UK backstop move*
*







*
"Two months before Brexit, it seems as if she wants to now challenge the EU to a game of chicken : whoever blinks first loses," the daily says.











https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-47056349

So what will the EU's next move be? Declare no deal and move on?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Lol. May as well leave with no deal and start again. *Seems they're never going to agree*.


Why should we leave with no deal just because the Tories can't get their act together?


----------



## emmaviolet

Jesthar said:


> Why should we leave with no deal just because the Tories can't get their act together?


And it's all very well, when we don't have medication, those of us who depend on it will be so much better off out of that pesky EU without our medication.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Why should we leave with no deal just because the Tories can't get their act together?


It is the only other option.

The EU are probably going to say no deal could be reached instead of bothering reopening the backstop agreement.

MP's have not considered the EU declaring no deal thinking only the UK can declare it. The EU can also say no deal in which case the UK Parliament has no say.

What was passed last night about no deal was only a motion not an amendment and has no legality.

The UK voted to leave not remain.

Stockwellcat quickly puts his tin hat on and runs for cover.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> And it's all very well, when we don't have medication, those of us who depend on it will be so much better off out of that pesky EU without our medication.


You don't think steps are currently being put in place for a no-deal scenario, where major issues like the one you have mentioned are not addressed?


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> You don't think steps are currently being put in place for a no-deal scenario, where major issues like the one you have mentioned are not addressed?


Knowing this government, no, I don't believe sufficient steps are being taken to ensure no shortages, no.

And to be honest, I am quite angry at the thought that our government would even contemplate anything that would leave us vulnerable like that and not rule it out completely.


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> And it's all very well, when we don't have medication, those of us who depend on it will be so much better off out of that pesky EU without our medication.


Why do you think the UK is stockpiling medications as a priority above food.

The thing people are not thinking of is that supplies like medication and food and veterinary supplies will still be coming into the UK after a no deal Brexit it doesn't suddenly stop.

My friend was told 12 months ago to stock pile medication from his hospital consultant and that is exactly what he has been doing. The consultant gave him a 12 month prescription and then a 6 month prescription 6 months later and this week he gets another 6 months giving him 12 months supply in case. Surprised no one elses doctors or consultants haven't advised this.


----------



## Calvine




----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> Why do you think the UK is stockpiling medications as a priority above food.
> 
> The thing people are not thinking of is that supplies like medication and food and veterinary supplies will still be coming into the UK after a no deal Brexit it doesn't suddenly stop.


Food is also important, but people can suddenly die or become extremely ill when they haven't got their longstanding meds.

And no, things will stop, no deal also means no trading deal, so things will not be coming in if we get it from the EU, many have explained what will stop coming in.


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> Food is also important, but people can suddenly die or become extremely ill when they haven't got their longstanding meds.
> 
> And no, things will stop, no deal also means no trading deal, so things will not be coming in if we get it from the EU, many have explained what will stop coming in.


It doesn't work like that. Alot of this is hysteria.

The EU have an emergency plan in place and have said things will carry on in the event of no deal as normal for 12 months. I have posted a link to the EU No Deal Emergency plan on here.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Lol. May as well leave with no deal and start again. Seems they're never going to agree.


Better to revoke Article 50 and start again with a sensible, cross-party, everything-on-the-table discussion. We've been in the EU for c. 45 years; if we're going to leave it will take time and for the sake of people's welfare it's worth doing properly and with the maximum agreement.


----------



## Elles

No deal isn’t going to be the Armageddon people might think imo. It’s not just us, Europe is preparing for it. I’m sure there will be some short term disruption, but we’re more likely to run out of medicine due to global shortages and pharma selling to the highest bidder, which isn’t usually the nhs, than brexit. People are already having to use less effective medication, but brexit fears are distracting from it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Better to revoke Article 50


Was voted down last night and the Government won. So is not an option.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Was voted down last night and the Government won. So is not an option.


Oh for heaven's sake - IT IS STILL AN OPTION. NOTHING AT ALL WAS RULED OUT YESTERDAY.

Just because the amendments to yesterday's bill were not passed does not mean they are no longer options. And that includes No Deal, which was also voted down last night.

I thought we settled that point this morning with the direct quote of May's speech specifically saying that MPs would get another chance? Do you disagree with her?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Oh for heaven's sake - IT IS STILL AN OPTION. NOTHING AT ALL WAS RULED OUT YESTERDAY.
> 
> Just because the amendments to yesterday's bill were not passed does not mean they are no longer options. And that includes No Deal, which was also voted down last night.
> 
> I thought we settled that point this morning with the direct quote of May's speech specifically saying that MPs would get another chance? Do you disagree with her?


She said another chance to vote on the withdrawal agreement not debate it for further amendments. So yes it does take everything off the table except this deal of no deal.

No Deal is not off the table. It was a motion passed not an amendment for this. I double checked it. A motion has no significance in law. The actual amendments to take no deal off the table were rejected and the Government one. SNP and Wales and another one. The 3rd time it was a motion not an amendment.

Barclay even confirmed today that no deal is still on the table and could still happen.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> She said another chance to vote on the withdrawal agreement not debate it for further amendments. So yes it does take everything off the table except this deal of no deal.
> 
> No Deal is not off the table. It was a motion passed not an amendment for this. I double checked it. A motion has no significance in law. The actual amendments to take no deal off the table were rejected and the Government one. SNP and Wales and another one. The 3rd time it was a motion not an amendment.
> 
> Barclay even confirmed today that no deal is still on the table and could still happen.


No, she said there was time for additional amendments and this wasn't the last chance.


----------



## emmaviolet

And I honestly don't believe the majority of parliament would allow a no deal as the extremists are far outnumbered by those who don't want to crash out and all that could mean.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> It is the only other option.


You know very well that isn't actually the case. As has been stated by May herself.



stockwellcat. said:


> The EU are probably going to say no deal could be reached instead of bothering reopening the backstop agreement.


The EU isn't going to declare that, they too would prefer a deal (and have been remarkably consistant about their requirements) - they don't want the headache and disruptions a no deal would cause. But they won't stop us shooting ourselves in the foot if we insist. They know even no-deal is not the end of the negotiating, rather that it starts all over again with them in an even stronger position. Probably sooner than the UK would like if even a fraction of the predicted problems materialise.

The UK doesn't have the infrastructure to cope with a no deal Brexit and the realities of being a third party trader with the whole world (not just the EU, as most of our global agreements are via the EU too). It's easy enough to say 'oh, they won't let there be shortages/delays/problems', but the reality is there are practial limitations on logistics and planning. Part of that will be down to the fact businesses were reassured constantly since Article 50 was triggered that a no deal scenario would not be the case, and now it's too late to do any mitigation that requires major lead time. Hence the proposals of turning motorways into lorry parks, as there is no other place to put the queues that the (mandatory) extra border checks and paperwork will create.



stockwellcat. said:


> The UK voted to leave not remain.


Yes, we've been through all this before. But I'm pretty sure that, despite your personal convictions, there are a goodly number of people who voted leave who would not favour leaving under these specific arrangements (or lack thereof). I suppose it's also worth observing that even if Article 50 were to be revoked this time around, there is nothing to say that would be the end of it and it could not be retriggered once Our Glorious Leaders have stopped smoking the wacky baccy and done some proper, realistic prep work to ensure an orderly and sane Brexit rather than the total and utter shambles they've so far presided over.


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> And I honestly don't believe the majority of parliament would allow a no deal as the extremists are far outnumbered by those who don't want to crash out and all that could mean.


They rejected the amendments to support preventing no deal 2 times last night and only allowed the motion through. A motion has no significance in law the amendments do.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> You know very well that isn't actually the case. As has been stated by May herself.
> 
> The EU isn't going to declare that, they too would prefer a deal (and have been remarkably consistant about their requirements) - they don't want the headache and disruptions a no deal would cause. But they won't stop us shooting ourselves in the foot if we insist. They know even no-deal is not the end of the negotiating, rather that it starts all over again with them in an even stronger position. Probably sooner than the UK would like if even a fraction of the predicted problems materialise.
> 
> The UK doesn't have the infrastructure to cope with a no deal Brexit and the realities of being a third party trader with the whole world (not just the EU, as most of our global agreements are via the EU too). It's easy enough to say 'oh, they won't let there be shortages/delays/problems', but the reality is there are practial limitations on logistics and planning. Part of that will be down to the fact businesses were reassured constantly since Article 50 was triggered that a no deal scenario would not be the case, and now it's too late to do any mitigation that requires major lead time. Hence the proposals of turning motorways into lorry parks, as there is no other place to put the queues that the (mandatory) extra border checks and paperwork will create.
> 
> Yes, we've been through all this before. But I'm pretty sure that, despite your personal convictions, there are a goodly number of people who voted leave who would not favour leaving under these specific arrangements (or lack thereof). I suppose it's also worth observing that even if Article 50 were to be revoked this time around, there is nothing to say that would be the end of it and it could not be retriggered once Our Glorious Leaders have stopped smoking the wacky baccy and done some proper, realistic prep work to ensure an orderly and sane Brexit rather than the total and utter shambles they've so far presided over.


The retraction or extension of article 50 amendments where rejected last night by Parliament  So no need to go down that road again.

Parliament will simply be voting on the deal when it comes back to the house of commons before the 13th February 2019 and basically won't have the option to try and amend it. Tick tock. Time is running out. The EU are ratifying the deal whilst the UK Parliament try and play silly games. It is too late to reopen the deal. it is not renegotiable.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> She said another chance to vote on the withdrawal agreement not debate it for further amendments. So yes it does take everything off the table except this deal of no deal.
> 
> No Deal is not off the table. It was a motion passed not an amendment for this. I double checked it. A motion has no significance in law. The actual amendments to take no deal off the table were rejected and the Government one. SNP and Wales and another one. The 3rd time it was a motion not an amendment.
> 
> Barclay even confirmed today that no deal is still on the table and could still happen.


Let me quote May's speech yesterday one more time.

Look out for the phrase "amendable motion". It's there twice.

First of all, as I have said, we will bring a revised deal back to this House for a second meaningful vote as soon as we possibly can. While we will want the House to support that deal, if it did not, we would-just as before-table *an amendable motion for debate the next day*. Furthermore, if we have not brought a revised deal back to this House by Wednesday 13 February, we will make a statement and, again, *table an amendable motion for debate the next day*. *So the House will have a further opportunity to revisit this question of leaving without a deal.* Today, we can and must instead focus all our efforts on securing a good deal with the EU that enables us to leave in a smooth and orderly way on 29 March.​
Nothing was ruled out.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The retraction or extension of article 50 amendments where rejected last night by Parliament  So no need to go down that road again.
> 
> Parliament will simply be voting on the deal when it comes back to the house of commons before the 13th February 2019 and basically *won't have the option to try and amend it*. Tick tock. Time is running out. The EU are ratifying the deal whilst the UK Parliament try and play silly games. It is too late to reopen the deal. it is not renegotiable.





Teresa Bloody May said:


> First of all, as I have said, we will bring a revised deal back to this House for a second meaningful vote as soon as we possibly can. While we will want the House to support that deal, if it did not, we would-just as before-table *an amendable motion for debate the next day*. Furthermore, if we have not brought a revised deal back to this House by Wednesday 13 February, we will make a statement and, again, *table an amendable motion for debate the next day*. *So the House will have a further opportunity to revisit this question of leaving without a deal.* Today, we can and must instead focus all our efforts on securing a good deal with the EU that enables us to leave in a smooth and orderly way on 29 March.


----------



## stockwellcat.

AND Barclay said today and TM in PMQ's NO DEAL is still on the table and could still happen. If MP's want a deal they must vote for the deal she brings back before the house by the 13th February to prevent no deal happening. That is what she said and has repeatedly said this.


----------



## Elles

Many people no longer believe the warnings, or at least take them with a pinch of salt. Which is a good thing, when you think back over the years and what we’ve been worried about that’s never happened. All that stress, fear and distraction, when we could have just been getting on with the job in hand and dealing with real events, not predictions of doom.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> AND Barclay said today and TM in PMQ's NO DEAL is still on the table and could still happen. If MP's want a deal they must vote for the deal she brings back before the house by the 13th February to prevent no deal happening. That is what she said and has repeatedly said this.


She also repeatedly said there wouldn't be another General Election, and look how well THAT turned out...


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> AND Barclay said today and TM in PMQ's NO DEAL is still on the table and could still happen. If MP's want a deal they must vote for the deal she brings back before the house by the 13th February to prevent no deal happening. That is what she said and has repeatedly said this.


Nobody has suggested that No Deal is not on the table. It is on the table. Just as every other option is still on the table.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Many people no longer believe the warnings, or at least take them with a pinch of salt. Which is a good thing, when you think back over the years and what we've been worried about that's never happened. All that stress, fear and distraction, when we could have just been getting on with the job in hand and dealing with real events, not predictions of doom.


_Please_ tell me you're not going to use the Millenium Bug as one of the examples...


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> They rejected the amendments to support preventing no deal 2 times last night and only allowed the motion through. A motion has no significance in law the amendments do.


Yes, however they did that for a temporary show, even the chancellor doesn't want no deal and wants to prevent it. I believe there are too many for there to be no deal.

If no deal does happen, then those who believe in democracy should be very scared, because the majority of MP's don't want it, but a small number will be dictating the fate of the entire country.

The majority of MP's do not want to risk this.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sadly some remainers did not grasp what happened last night and believe all options are still on the table 

We won't be remaining in the EU. Fact.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> AND Barclay said today and TM in PMQ's NO DEAL is still on the table and could still happen. If MP's want a deal they must vote for the deal she brings back before the house by the 13th February to prevent no deal happening. That is what she said and has repeatedly said this.


What she says means nothing. She has said that over and over, yet yesterday she essentially told everyone to vote against her deal. So her deal or no deal (or no brexit, she also has said that) mean nothing at all any more. 
It's just like 'brexit means brexit' it's meaningless.


----------



## emmaviolet

stockwellcat. said:


> Sadly some remainers did not grasp what happened last night and believe all options are still on the table
> 
> We won't be remaining in the EU. Fact.


And likewise some Brexiteers were not listening and haven't read exactly what was said yesterday.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Sadly some remainers did not grasp what happened last night and believe all options are still on the table


You are, yet again, mistaken.

Do you not think that today's newspapers might just have mentioned that revoking or extending A50 had been removed from the list of possibilities? Do you not think that would be absolutely enormous news?

Do you think May's promise of amendable motions means that the motions cannot be amended?

I'm afraid you're back on ignore again for a while. I haven't got the time to waste on this nonsense.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> We are so screwed. History will be damning to the brextremists!
> 
> *Will Hutton*‏ @williamnhutton
> _There is so much to deplore about Brexit. But most deplorable is how the rupturing of a 45 year relationship and the trashing of the soul of our country is being driven solely to keep the Tory party together. So short-sighted and tribal.
> It will never be forgiven._
> 
> *David Schneider*‏:
> _Today has proved yet again that if a group of people had sat down and worked out how to destroy Britain from within, they could not have come up with a better plan than Brexit_.
> 
> .


I am afraid this is exactly what happened and the country and the people are not our friends


----------



## Elles

The millennium bug is a prime example of expert advice being followed and nothing untoward happening, while people shook in their boots, expecting planes to fall out of the sky, governments to fall and chaos ensue.

Though it wasn’t what I was thinking of, it is exactly what I’m talking about. 

Well over 2 years ago, even before the referendum, there has been time to prepare for the best outcome of leaving the Eu, even with no deal. But our government went in afraid for our lives, with remain as their most desired outcome and approached it from a deal scenario, as close as possible to remain whilst vaguely adhering to what they thought was ‘the will of the people’ making a deal actually close to impossible, given that the Eu would never agree to it, but considering ‘no deal’ only at the 11th hour. There was no mention of Ireland or Gibraltar by the Remainers, or the government. They were too busy exaggerating to try to frighten us into voting remain, instead of giving us real reasons to consider it.

We could be very prepared to leave the Eu, with both ourselves and European countries ready, whilst still negotiating a deal, or mini deals. Instead our governments have done what they do best. Avoided the question. 

Now I fear it may be too late. The Eu have been made to appear to wield far too much power over us. With leaving meaning no food, no medicine, flights grounded, ports blocked, Ireland at war, Spain stealing Gibraltar... Do you not think that many will be thinking we’d better get out now before it’s too late, take back control and stuff the deal?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The millennium bug is a prime example of expert advice being followed and nothing untoward happening, while people shook in their boots, expecting planes to fall out of the sky, governments to fall and chaos ensue.
> 
> Though it wasn't what I was thinking of, it is exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> Well over 2 years ago, even before the referendum, there has been time to prepare for the best outcome of leaving the Eu, even with no deal. But our government went in afraid for our lives, with remain as their most desired outcome and approached it from a deal scenario, as close as possible to remain whilst vaguely adhering to what they thought was 'the will of the people' making a deal actually close to impossible, given that the Eu would never agree to it, but considering 'no deal' only at the 11th hour. There was no mention of Ireland or Gibraltar by the Remainers, or the government. They were too busy exaggerating to try to frighten us into voting remain, instead of giving us real reasons to consider it.
> 
> We could be very prepared to leave the Eu, with both ourselves and European countries ready, whilst still negotiating a deal, or mini deals. Instead our governments have done what they do best. Avoided the question.
> 
> Now I fear it may be too late. The Eu have been made to appear to wield far too much power over us. With leaving meaning no food, no medicine, flights grounded, ports blocked, Ireland at war, Spain stealing Gibraltar... Do you not think that many will be thinking we'd better get out now before it's too late, take back control and stuff the deal?


No. Many will think who got us into that mess ?

What for?
Why leaving Customs Union that saves costs, time and make products cheaper and more competitive is an achievement?

Unless you are FTSE100 then falling pound is not something to celebrate either...


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## stockwellcat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-46988529


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Theresa May gets abuse. I don't like Diane Abbot as a politician. She comes across really badly imo, so does Jeremy Corbyn. Diane because it takes her 10 minutes to say anything and she never looks ahead, which, I'm embarrassed to admit I find irritating and Corbyn because he gets angry and shouts and as a previously abused woman, men getting angry and shouting frightens me and makes me very uncomfortable. Plus I don't agree with their politics.
> 
> I don't disagree that Diane is subjected to racist and other abuse and that is abhorrent and for that I do sympathise. I think the reason she may appear to get more abuse than some others though is probably 50/50. Racists would attack her anyway. She's a woman and black, so she's fair game to them, but she also comes across badly and some think that makes her fair game too. It's not all about racism.
> 
> Theresa May has been accused of being a fascist and had the same kind of idiots walking the street carrying a noose and wanting to hang her. I don't think we can say TM isn't subjected to threats and abuse.


Its shocking the abuse and threats hurled at MPs . Really nasty stuff , at men too .
Jesse Phillips was threatened with rape and other MPs received death threats .
I wonder why Diane gets more abuse than other women and or/other black MPs?
I suppose she is more prominent and associated with Corbyn, maybe .
I understand she was ill and performance has been poor in TV interviews and people aren't happy with her because of that .
But yes , disgusting racism aimed at her.


----------



## Magyarmum

Tonight's viewing for everyone - this afternoons debate in the European Parliament.

Please note the first 45/50 minutes are about something unrelated to Brexit

Fingers crossed the link works!

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/30...-a-day-after-mps-voted-on-amendments-to-may-s


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Talking of gin. Did everyone get Wetherspoonnews U.K. edition through their letterbox? It just dropped through mine.


No, what does it say ? Free Gin ?


----------



## Magyarmum

Just arrived in my inbox.

Press release from the European Commission of Juncker and Barnier speeches today about Brexit.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-789_en.htm


----------



## stockwellcat.

Is Corbyn still at Downing Street? If so he has been there a long time. He went there straight after PMQ's with TM.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I wonder why Diane gets more abuse than other women and or/other black MPs?


Because she herself is racist


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Its shocking the abuse and threats hurled at abuse MPs . Really nasty stuff , at men too .
> Jesse Phillips was threatened with rape and other MPs received death threats .
> * I wonder why Diane gets more abuse than other women and or/other black MPs?*
> I suppose she is more prominent and associated with Corbyn, maybe .
> I understand she was ill and performance has been poor in TV interviews and people aren't happy with her because of that .
> But yes , disgusting racism aimed at her.


She's the most prominent black woman out there for politics.

Women are targeted more then men it appears, and black woman all the more, and as she appears on a lot of shows and people actually know her name by a greater number compared to someone like Dawn Butler, then it stands.

She also, as pointed out earlier, has other things that are easily excused in white people (a hunch apparently, looks down) which are picked up as reasons to hate on when someone is a POC.


----------



## emmaviolet

Barclays moving 190 BILLION to Ireland.

Everything is fine over here, perfectly fine.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Martin Selmayr is taking over the Brexit negotiations - and that's bad news for Britain*

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...otiations-and-thats-bad-news-for-britain/amp/

The UK is too busy with its internal squabbles that Parliament and the people have forgotten the people involved in the Brexit negotiations in the EU are not going to be there in the trade deal and future relationship part of the negotiations.


----------



## Magyarmum

emmaviolet said:


> Barclays moving 190 BILLION to Ireland.
> 
> Everything is fine over here, perfectly fine.


It's been on the cards for quite some time.and as far as I understand it involves moving its European branches as well.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sh-unit-ahead-of-brexit-sources-idUSKBN1KY12Y

*Barclays shifting ownership of European branches to Irish unit ahead of Brexit: sources*


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> No, what does it say ? Free Gin ?


This 

https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/drink/gin-palace

New Unicorn Gin


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> This
> 
> https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/drink/gin-palace
> 
> New Unicorn Gin


Yum. That sounds nice. Will have to taste it.


> This premium English gin contains 21 botanicals and is blended with natural vanilla to create the delicious taste of toasted marshmallows - with a little magic unicorn dust sprinkled in for added sparkle!


But what is unicorn dust?


----------



## stockwellcat.

VERY (Littlewoods) catelogue company sell similar:








https://www.very.co.uk/firebox-unicorn-tears-gin-50cl/1600162341.prd?sku=sku19848519&cm_mmc=google-_-PLA+-+Generic-_-Gifts+&+Jewellery+-+Food+&+Drink+-+Alcohol-_-PRODUCT_GROUP_p33749507357_&utm_campaign=Generic_Gifts+&+Jewellery+-+Food+&+Drink+-+Alcohol&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_term=PRODUCT_GROUP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl_yzj5aW4AIVgrTtCh24Eg0wEAQYCCABEgJWKvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

£39.99 for a bottle is a tad expensive.


----------



## Elles

emmaviolet said:


> She's the most prominent black woman out there for politics.
> 
> Women are targeted more then men it appears, and black woman all the more, and as she appears on a lot of shows and people actually know her name by a greater number compared to someone like Dawn Butler, then it stands.
> 
> She also, as pointed out earlier, has other things that are easily excused in white people (a hunch apparently, looks down) which are picked up as reasons to hate on when someone is a POC.


I can assure you the looking down in an embarrassed or evasive way and being a poor speaker I would notice in any politician. Part of the job is public speaking, debating and being able to hold your own. Otherwise people won't know what you stand for and you'll be letting down your party. Public speaking and debating can be learned. If I wriggled around like Diane does, I would either go and get the training or find another way to contribute to my party and I certainly wouldn't be putting my name forward for tv shows.


----------



## rona

Just learnt a new word. "rawgabbit". There's loads on this thread


----------



## Arnie83

BBC "Beyond 100 Days" expert thinks that the most likely way forwards now is that Brexit will be delayed via an Article 50 extension.

He's obviously more of an expert than me but I do agree. May isn't going to get anything from the EU to replace the backstop so I can't see her deal being passed in 2 weeks time and no-one outside the ERG want a no deal.


----------



## Elles

The Eu politician they just spoke to on channel 4 news said no deal is now most likely.


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> I can assure you the looking down in an embarrassed or evasive way and being a poor speaker I would notice in any politician. Part of the job is public speaking, debating and being able to hold your own. Otherwise people won't know what you stand for and you'll be letting down your party. Public speaking and debating can be learned. If I wriggled around like Diane does, I would either go and get the training or find another way to contribute to my party and I certainly wouldn't be putting my name forward for tv shows.


But those same attributes exist in many other prominent politicians and they receive a small fraction of the abuse received by Diane.

Just as an example of how race is a factor in things.
The whole articles criticising Meghan Markle for showing her bump, all the while the same people have always praised Kate and said how wonderful she looked.
The bump has nothing to do with race, but suddenly having an issue with one person (who isn't white) doing the same things brings race into it. It's loaded, but not so much as anyone can say it had anything to do with it.


----------



## Elles

I don’t disagree that there is some racism in our society, I’m just saying that if I criticise Diane Abbot, it has nothing to do with her race. I didn’t know Meghan Markle wasn’t white and why would anyone criticise a pregnant woman for showing her bump, that’s just downright stupidity. Tbh I don’t take much notice of the Royals, nothing to do with what race they are though lol. I’m just not that interested in them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> The Eu politician they just spoke to on channel 4 news said no deal is now most likely.


The EU leaders have been voicing virtually the same thing all day. No deal is more than likely going to happen know. Sorry for putting the backs up of some remainers on here but this is the point blank truth. There is no appetite in Brussels for what is going on in the UK Parliament.


----------



## Elles

Barclays say they’re moving because it can’t wait any longer and no deal is too likely.


----------



## Elles

So sorry @Arnie83 no deal is now looking more likely to businesses who are acting on it. They don't have your confidence. Plymouth is making plans to accept freight from Santander in Spain and has cancelled or delayed some passenger ferries.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Eu politician they just spoke to on channel 4 news said no deal is now most likely.


He or she may be right, but neither the UK nor the EU want a 'no deal' and saying it is likely can also be seen as a warning as much as a prediction. Being an optimist I'll stick with an extension at this stage!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So sorry @Arnie83 no deal is now looking more likely to businesses who are acting on it. They don't have your confidence. Plymouth is making plans to accept freight from Santander in Spain and has cancelled or delayed some passenger ferries.


I think there comes a stage where they really have to act, because not to do so would be betting the whole business on a deal being reached. Doesn't change my view though.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Some people only listen to themselves.
All hope of an extension to article 50 was thrown out last night when all amendments for this was defeated by the Government.

Putting some people on ignore for a while as they are dreaming Parliament would come to the rescue (blunt truth is Parliament won't come to some remainers rescue). It is happening and no deal is more realistic now than getting a deal unless the EU agree to renegotiate (but they won't). Parliament voted last night. The EU has responded to say No Deal is more than likely going to happen now and has said this all day today.


----------



## rona

I find it so sad that this thread has had 36 replies since a member said they had recovered cancer and got just 16 replies. Just about sums up this forum really


----------



## Elles

Ok, I have to admit that despite the current evidence to the contrary, I’m hard pressed to believe we’ll be allowed to escape without a deal.. :Bag


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> I find it so sad that this thread has had 36 replies since a member said they had recovered cancer and got just 16 replies. Just about sums up this forum really


I didn't know what to say, because I haven't been following and it seemed hypocritical of me to jump in, so I'd just clicked like instead.


----------



## rona

*"British Parliament Sectioned Under The Mental Health Act" *

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/20...7yUKAB6mHlNSs_72MSF8xcqV2-BjkAFZ8z93OSrBdaZjs


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> I don't disagree that there is some racism in our society, I'm just saying that if I criticise Diane Abbot, it has nothing to do with her race. I didn't know Meghan Markle wasn't white and why would anyone criticise a pregnant woman for showing her bump, that's just downright stupidity. Tbh I don't take much notice of the Royals, nothing to do with what race they are though lol. I'm just not that interested in them.


I'm not saying you are, and we can all criticise anyone, but there is racism behind a lot of it, even, sometimes when it isn't relating to her race, as in the example given with the royals.

I don't really follow them either, I don't actually enjoy living in a country that has a royal family for many reasons (I know, if I don't like it, move) but this was a discussion topic at a group i belong to. Different races are treated differently, especially in the press. How can the same paper say that Kate is 'blossoming' and 'nurturing her bump by holding it' and Meghan be treated as if it's a call for attention? There is a lot of examples like this, and the footballer and his gun tattoo, there's a different standard for different races.

You can be seen to be incompetent and be white, and it really doesn't matter, but when you're black/POC it's a different story if you have any flaws.


----------



## Elles

Footballer and gun tattoo? I don’t watch football or read the papers either lol. I didn’t realise how ignorant I am.  I had no idea people were criticising Meghan Markle for her bump, or anything about a footballer and a tattoo.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Footballer and gun tattoo? I don't watch football or read the papers either lol. I didn't realise how ignorant I am.  * I had no idea people were criticising Meghan Markle for her bump*, or anything about a footballer and a tattoo.


I didn't either,


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> Footballer and gun tattoo? I don't watch football or read the papers either lol. I didn't realise how ignorant I am.  I had no idea people were criticising Meghan Markle for her bump, or anything about a footballer and a tattoo.


Yes, he's a black footballer and he had a gun tattoo on his leg and the hate thrown at him in the press was out of proportion. He was being vilified for a tattoo.

As I said, a tattoo is not a race issue, but when you then attack a black man for having a tattoo, then race is a factor, but there's a get out clause, because anyone attacking him has the excuse 'it's just about the tattoo' and as long as there's no racial slurs, how can it be racist?

The world is a messed up place. I mean, let's be honest, if Obama as a black man was saying even half the things Trump has, he would've been impeached. Fox news had a vendetta against him for saluting while holding a coffee cup!


----------



## Elles

I liked Obama. I have no idea why Trump gets away with what he does. Sign of the times I expect.


----------



## KittenKong

A draft extract from Glen Noble's '2024' Chapter 2:

You saw it first on Pet Forums!:


Disaster struck when the UK left the European Union in March 2019.

To recall every disaster is beyond the scope of this short story but will mention the plight of farmers throughout the UK, the majority of which voted leave in 2016.

Most had received subsidies from the EU which had ended. Environment Secretary Maurice Geoffrey's promises of matching what farmers' would've received in EU subsidies over the next couple of years fell on death ears.

The majority of farmers found themselves bankrupt and evicted from their land and properties before they knew it.

This lie from the Environment Secretary was a deliberate one in order to sell off farmlands for fracking operations and other industrial purposes.

England's green and pleasant lands became a thing of the past, except for large areas now privately owned and out of bounds to all except the traditional Foxhunting rallies that are legal again.

The deforestation and lack of green areas were sold to the public by the media as Britain proving it could stand alone and be self sufficient in these troubled yet glorious times.

Meanwhile, metrication was abolished with patriotic advertising campaigns from surviving supermarkets, "We're British again!"

The Royalties for the Copyright holder's of, "Rule Britannia" and "Land of Hope and Glory" escalate considerably, especially as frequently used by the British Home Service, ITV advertisements and by BBCtv.

The latter even bring back the famous globe caption, accompanied by the patriotic music to show Britain ruling the world. In red, white and blue, of course.

A new form of pre-decimal currency was introduced which reverted to 12d per shilling and 20 shillings to the £.

However, due to rising costs and inflation, it wouldn't do to sell a gallon of petrol for £10 18s 9½d for example, the imperial equivalent of a decimal pound became a shilling, IE: 20s equals £20.00 in the former decimal form.

Thus, a wage that was £200 a week pre Brexit becomes £10 5s 8½d a week.

"Oh, for those glory days that Europe robbed us of are coming back", is their cry.

Meanwhile, rationing escalates with rising charges and shortages. Martial Law resulted in shops closing at 5pm and all day Sundays.

Pre Brexit was an obesity crisis, in 2022 a hunger crisis.

US President Scrump intervenes with his promises of a great deal to rescue the Nation, with a huge price to pay...

TO BE CONTINUED...


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Just as an example of how race is a factor in things.
> The whole articles criticising Meghan Markle for showing her bump, all the while the same people have always praised Kate and said how wonderful she looked.
> The bump has nothing to do with race, but suddenly having an issue with one person (who isn't white) doing the same things brings race into it. It's loaded, but not so much as anyone can say it had anything to do with it.


I googled this and it seems she was criticised for constantly holding her bump . Not the quite the same as showing it.
I'm sure there had been criticism for Kate over the years and lots of praise for Meghan too. Its all part of being famous and royal .
I really don't think its about racism.


----------



## Grigori

Hello Stockwellcat. I think it is nice to meet you but I think also it is not because I am problem for you and I am sorry. I do not understand why you are suspicious for me. I am born Russian but I do not support communist idea Stalin or Lenin. I do not want to murder your royal family. New word for me is contentious. Thank you. I make my own thought for all world subjects brexit and climate change. I do not understand why you are angry. Climate change in my country also. Also I was born neighbour of Prypyat and Chernobyl. Nuclear power is great fear for me and all citizens of ghost city Prypyat and Chernobyl.
Thank you Noushka05. You explain for me why I write support.
Hello Arnie83. It is good to meet you. Thank you for my mention and thank you for my english. I take long time for writing small letter because I have book for translation and dictionary for correct words to write. I think I do not make mistake if I copy words for my letter. I study also for work.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Grigori said:


> Hello Stockwellcat. I think it is nice to meet you but I think also it is not because I am problem for you and I am sorry. I do not understand why you are suspicious for me. I am born Russian but I do not support communist idea Stalin or Lenin. I do not want to murder your royal family. New word for me is contentious. Thank you. I make my own thought for all world subjects brexit and climate change. I do not understand why you are angry. Climate change in my country also. Also I was born neighbour of Prypyat and Chernobyl. Nuclear power is great fear for me and all citizens of ghost city Prypyat and Chernobyl.
> Thank you Noushka05. You explain for me why I write support.
> Hello Arnie83. It is good to meet you. Thank you for my mention and thank you for my english. I take long time for writing small letter because I have book for translation and dictionary for correct words to write. I think I do not make mistake if I copy words for my letter. I study also for work.


Hi Grigori,

Contentious means:- causes alot of disagreement and argument. Climate Change and Brexit are both contentious subjects (especially Brexit).

I am not angry at all. You have no need to apologise. Your English is very good by the way seeing as you use books to understand what everyone is saying and write your replies. 

I am suspicious because you came on the forum and just participate in the Climate Change and Brexit threads (both very contentious subjects) and I haven't seen any posts about your pets.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Heard on the news this morning Germany and Poland want the EU negotiators to reopen negotiations so the backstop can be renegotiated so May has a deal she can take back to Parliament and get through Parliament so there is a deal with the UK. Germany and Poland want a compromise made with the UK.

Cracks are starting to show in the EU solidarity as it is obvious that EU Negotiators are not speaking as one on behalf of all European Countries if Germany and Poland want the UK to have a deal and the negotiations reopened and a compromise made.

Just found this in the newspapers:








https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-deal-eu-divided-germany-poland-compromise/amp/

Germany pulls alot of weight in the EU so let's see what happens.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I find it so sad that this thread has had 36 replies since a member said they had recovered cancer and got just 16 replies. Just about sums up this forum really


I think I have missed something as I don't spend that much time on here and tend to skim. I hope all is well with everyone.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> constantly holding her bump


She does; sometimes with both hands as tho' she's afraid it will fall off. It's hers; I don't care what she does with it.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> No, what does it say ? Free Gin ?


There was no free gin sadly...


----------



## stockwellcat.

@emmaviolet Yesterday you seemed very concerned that supplies would suddenly ground to a halt coming into the UK. This is simply not true. I have found a great article for you to read about this.

*Brexit: What preparations are being made for a no-deal?*

This part maybe of interest to you:



> Suddenly British goods going to the European Union will be subject to duty (a payment, for example on imports and exports), and will need to be checked for compliance with things like sanitary regulations.
> 
> Goods arriving in the UK from the EU could face checks too, though the government has said it will not do that straight away, partly because it doesn't have the infrastructure.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47029602

Goods will still come to the UK including medications in the event of no deal. It is not true that everything will suddenly ground to a halt and I don't know where you got that idea from.

All goods coming into the UK from the EU will be subject to checks and vice versa but the UK does not have the infrastructure to do this so the goods from the EU will continue to flow into the UK like now as no checks will be done this side for now until the infrastruture is put in place.


----------



## Magyarmum

Whilst the UK has been preoccupied contemplating its navel - and apparently Meghan Markle's as well, EU countries are getting worried about what happens to them if the UK crashes out.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...al-impact-on-europe-by-sigmar-gabriel-2019-01

*Why Brexit Will Damage Europe*

https://www.westmonster.com/germany-slashes-economic-growth-forecast-worries-about-no-deal/

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1088349709192839170.html

*Increasing fear of a No Deal Brexit across Europe. Brussels need to pull their finger out, renegotiate and secure a deal. *


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> @emmaviolet Yesterday you seemed very concerned that supplies would suddenly ground to a halt coming into the UK. This is simply not true. I have found a great article for you to read about this.
> 
> *Brexit: What preparations are being made for a no-deal?*
> 
> This part maybe of interest to you:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47029602
> 
> Goods will still come to the UK including medications in the event of no deal. It is not true that everything will suddenly ground to a halt and I don't know where you got that idea from.
> 
> All goods coming into the UK from the EU will be subject to checks and vice versa but the UK does not have the infrastructure to do this so the goods from the EU will continue to flow into the UK like now as no checks will be done this side for now until the infrastruture is put in place.


I can't find the link but yesterday it was announced that Sanofi, who are the largest manufacturer of insulin in the UK has a 6 month stockpile of insulin and other drugs

An article from late last year.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tion-novo-nordisk-eu-ema-sanofi-a8522276.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Is WTO Article 24 the antidote to a No Deal Brexit? Euronews Answers*

https://www.euronews.com/amp/2019/0...antidote-to-a-no-deal-brexit-euronews-answers

Nigel Farage, one of the UK's leading proponents of a 'hard Brexit' told Euronews yesterday that the negative impacts of Britain leaving the EU without a deal could be eliminated by the use of "Article 24 of the World Trade Organisation (WTO)".

*Is there any other major issue with using this provision to alleviate the trade and border challenges associated with a No Deal Brexit?*
Yes. Both sides need to agree, also known as having a deal. The EU has always refused to negotiate future trade arrangments until it has reached agreement with the UK over issues such as citizens rights, budget payments and the Northern Irish border.

Under the agreement Theresa May reached with Brussels last year, and rejected by the UK parliament, it was envisioned that there would be a two-year transition period under which the current trading relationships would be continued while the sides negotiated a new regime.

If there is no deal, the UK can continue to trade with the EU, but on the same terms as with any other WTO members with which it does not have a specific deal - this would mean an average of 4.3% tax for UK exports to the EU and 5.7% for imports from the EU, according to the Confederation for British Industry.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The problem with changing the Back Stop is, it was May's idea, so all the EU agreed with her and signed it, so they aren't going to change it.


----------



## Arnie83

Brexit has already damaged our economy, and will continue to do so. People are less well off than they would otherwise have been.

*Brexit: Car investment halves as industry hits 'red alert'*

Investment in the UK car sector almost halved last year and output tumbled as Brexit fears put firms on "red alert", the industry's trade body said.

Inward investment fell 46.5% to £588.6m last year from £1.1bn in 2017, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) says.

Production fell 9.1% to 1.52m vehicles, with output for the UK and for export falling 16.3% and 7.3% respectively.

Brexit uncertainty has "done enormous damage", said SMMT chief Mike Hawes.

But the impact so far on output, investment and jobs "is nothing compared with the permanent devastation caused by severing our frictionless trade links overnight, not just with the EU but with the many other global markets with which we currently trade freely," he added​
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47055188


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> The problem with changing the Back Stop is, it was May's idea, so all the EU agreed with her and signed it, so they aren't going to change it.


Plus the inconvenient fact that there isn't a feasible suggestion as to what it should be changed to. "Alternative arrangements" are words, not proposals.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We seem to forget It was us that wanted to leave, so why should they bend over backwards to do everything we want, not that Mays has really told them what she want, the woman is totally confused.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I googled this and it seems she was criticised for constantly holding her bump . Not the quite the same as showing it.
> I'm sure there had been criticism for Kate over the years and lots of praise for Meghan too. Its all part of being famous and royal .
> I really don't think its about racism.


I said about holding it too, and as I said, the same paper praised Kate for protectively holding her bump.

As I said in my previous post, it has no markings of being about race, but when all things are equal and yet the POC if picked on for the exact same thing a white person is praised for, what is the reason?


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> The problem with changing the Back Stop is, it was May's idea, so all the EU agreed with her and signed it, so they aren't going to change it.


It's not the back stop that anyone really disagrees with, it's the never ending nature of the back stop


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> I said about holding it too, and as I said, the same paper praised Kate for protectively holding her bump.
> 
> As I said in my previous post, it has no markings of being about race, but when all things are equal and yet the POC if picked on for the exact same thing a white person is praised for, what is the reason?


Could it be that Kate is the 'stereotypical' person marrying into the royal family, very english in the way she speaks, her mannerisms etc. Her sister took the image of the 'naughty girl' in the family making Kate look even better for the public.

Meghan is seen as an outsider, an american, an actor and a bit of a diva with several staff leaving since she became married into the royal family. That might be a reason?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I find it so sad that this thread has had 36 replies since a member said they had recovered cancer and got just 16 replies. Just about sums up this forum really


I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.

My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> It's not the back stop that anyone really disagrees with, it's the never ending nature of the back stop


But how can you have a time-limited 'backstop'? That isn't a backstop. What do you do if the end date is reached and you haven't found an alternative?


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I said about holding it too, and as I said, the same paper praised Kate for protectively holding her bump.


 I didn't see that your post I replied too.

Kate's had three kids and I dont remember her constantly holding her bump . I remember she would put her hand on it sometimes.
Kate gets crap about her clothes , she cant win . Meghan cant either Famous people always get crap thrown at them . The press and TV have tried to make out they are rivals and at war which I doubt is true.



> As I said in my previous post, it has no markings of being about race, but when all things are equal and yet the POC if picked on for the exact same thing a white person is praised for, what is the reason?


 No it doesn't have any bearing on race if you hold your bump .
Im sure there are racist people who say horrible things about Meg but she was very warmly received and people love her,

What other reason ? What other differences are there between her and Kate ? Meghan is American .

Im thrilled she is a member of our Royal Family . She is a genuine lovely person.
Im glad William and Harry have found happiness with two lovely ladies.

The huge fuss they made about Meghan being mixed race, isn't that racist in a way ?

About Diane Abbott . I just don't like her , I don't like Corbyn either , Ive been very rude about him .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.
> 
> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.




 Im very sorry to hear that , Arnie.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.
> 
> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


So sorry to hear this. Such difficult times


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I can't find the link but yesterday it was announced that Sanofi, who are the largest manufacturer of insulin in the UK has a 6 month stockpile of insulin and other drugs
> 
> An article from late last year.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tion-novo-nordisk-eu-ema-sanofi-a8522276.html


What a mess this all is thanks to our MPs. Its just so depressing .


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Plus the inconvenient fact that there isn't a feasible suggestion as to what it should be changed to. "Alternative arrangements" are words, not proposals.


Exactly my thoughts . Alternative arrangements could mean anything .


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Could it be that Kate is the 'stereotypical' person marrying into the royal family, very english in the way she speaks, her mannerisms etc. Her sister took the image of the 'naughty girl' in the family making Kate look even better for the public.
> 
> *Meghan is seen as an outsider, an american, an actor and a bit of a diva* with several staff leaving since she became married into the royal family. That might be a reason?


And black, it cannot be ignored.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.
> 
> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


I'm so sorry to hear this Arnie. My Grandfather had lung cancer and entered a hospice towards the end, and if it's any help at all, they really made a huge difference to him and us, the care and the whole staff were just wonderful. It can be such a big change and it can be a worry, so I hope that helps a tiny bit.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> And black, it cannot be ignored.


Its not being ignored but there are other variables.
You can't always blame things on race or disability or being a woman etc etc . If you look for offence then you will likely find it .

BTW I do know what its like to get abuse for being different , I know how horrible it is . Deaf dog and spazz the most common insults.

I can blame people for not liking me for being deaf or walking funny but its generally cos I have a big gob and mouth off.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> And black, it cannot be ignored.


what @kimthecat said


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Its not being ignored but there are other variables.
> You can't always blame things on race or disability or being a woman etc etc . If you look for offence then you will likely find it .
> 
> BTW I do know what its like to get abuse for being different , I know how horrible it is . Deaf dog and spazz the most common insults.
> 
> I can blame people for not liking me for being deaf or walking funny but its generally cos I have a big gob and mouth off.


Yes, but then you look at the stats that black women journalists and politicians are 84% more likely to be mentioned in abusive or problematic tweets compared to white counterparts, and they get sent abusive messages every 30 seconds, there's something to it that we as a society shy away from as it's uncomfortable and blame it on something to do with the individual.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> what @kimthecat said


And what I replied to said post.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Yes, but then you look at the stats that black women journalists and politicians are 84% more likely to be mentioned in abusive or problematic tweets compared to white counterparts, and they get sent abusive messages every 30 seconds, there's something to it that we as a society shy away from as it's uncomfortable and blame it on something to do with the individual.


I agree I'm sure they do receive horrible stuff . That's very sad , Can you give me the stats so i can read about it .

We're just repeating ourselves , really .

People shy away from saying anything about race now in case they get jumped on .
Whats PC or not, changes. I though it was wrong to say coloured instead of black but now it seems ok to say person of colour .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I though it was wrong to say coloured instead of black but now it seems ok to say person of colour .


I can't keep up with it. One day it's an insult another day it's the only way to say it. I've given up with the always outraged


----------



## AlexPed2393

@emmaviolet I agree that ther are the extreme few that bring race into it, but there are also other reasons and factors that come into how peoploe are viewed in the public eye, like I mentioned about Meghan markle in comparison to Kate. Kate got a blessing in disguise when her sister being the naughty child, mking her look even sweeter.
This means the comparison of the two now married into the royal family is quite telling


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I agree I'm sure they do receive horrible stuff . That's very sad , Can you give me the stats so i can read about it .
> 
> We're just repeating ourselves , really .
> 
> People shy away from saying anything about race now in case they get jumped on .
> Whats PC or not, changes. I though it was wrong to say coloured instead of black but now it seems ok to say person of colour .


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...s-get-sent-an-abusive-tweet-every-30-seconds/
Here's an article on the review, and there's a lot of different studies that prove that black women are more targeted, especially in online abuse.

As I said earlier, when it's not the N word, or nothing related to their race, it's so easy to say the hate directed towards the person has nothing to do with race, but it goes a lot deeper then that surface level. So it can be about touching a bump, or a tattoo, but under the layers of it all, race does have something to do with it.

POC is OK (although some people dislike it) but it's still not OK to call people 'coloured'. But it's deeper then the always outraged, I believe people of all races just want to be treated with respect and equality.


----------



## Magyarmum

emmaviolet said:


> And black, it cannot be ignored.


Oh for goodness sake! If you'd lived in an African country like I have you'd know that insults about race aren't confined to black people. I've had racial insults about the colour of my skin, thrown at me more than than once, and I'M WHITE!.

Anyway I thought that this thread was about Brexit not about race. If you want to discuss it then perhaps you should start a new thread rather than disrupting this one?


----------



## Elles

I found the article about Diane Abbot getting the most abuse. The research was looking at female politicians, it didn’t look at males. Diane Abbot got the most abusive tweets of women MPs in Britain at the time, but although her race would have something to do with it for some abusers and some individuals would repeatedly attack of course, she would also be one of the most high profile at the time and she made a lot of mistakes then too. 

In the election campaign male tory politicians were subjected to the most abuse. 

People really should stop using twitter to abuse public figures.  We really are horrible.


----------



## Happy Paws2

That's why I never have anything to do with FB and Twitter, I think they are places for evil people to hang out and looking for victims, and when something is said the whole world can see it and it can't be taken back.


----------



## Elles

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/sheffield-research-twitter-abuse-politicians-1.718634

More research. Also concluding that high profile male politicians get more abuse.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.
> 
> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


 Very sorry to read this Arnie, best wishes to you and your family.


----------



## emmaviolet

Magyarmum said:


> *Oh for goodness sake! * If you'd lived in an African country like I have you'd know that insults about race aren't confined to black people. I've had racial insults about the colour of my skin, thrown at me more than than once, and I'M WHITE!.
> 
> Anyway I thought that this thread was about Brexit not about race. If you want to discuss it then perhaps you should start a new thread rather than disrupting this one?


And that's kind of the issue. As soon as race is even mentioned it gets people's backs up and makes people too uncomfortable to mention it. But it just is a factor that cannot be disputed any longer.

Anyway, I'm off now, so there will be no further 'disruption' from me, even though it was an ongoing discussion from many members off of the back of one comment from me.


----------



## Elles

I don’t think anyone has disagreed that there is racism and racist attacks and that some people are more likely to insult someone because of race even if the insult isn’t racist itself. It’s horrible and insidious and probably part of what Arnie talks about with tribes. 

But let’s be as accurate as we can about it, so that there’s no excuse and it becomes socially unacceptable and people don’t even think of it. Going to be a long time I’d guess though.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...s-get-sent-an-abusive-tweet-every-30-seconds/
> Here's an article on the review, and there's a lot of different studies that prove that black women are more targeted, especially in online abuse.
> 
> As I said earlier, when it's not the N word, or nothing related to their race, it's so easy to say the hate directed towards the person has nothing to do with race, but it goes a lot deeper then that surface level. So it can be about touching a bump, or a tattoo, but under the layers of it all, race does have something to do with it.
> 
> POC is OK (although some people dislike it) but it's still not OK to call people 'coloured'. But it's deeper then the always outraged, I believe people of all races just want to be treated with respect and equality.


Thanks for the link . So nothing about the men , thats sexist.
We're not saying that the hate is nothing to do with race but not _all_ hate is about race.

I'm sure we can all agree that all races and religions should be treated with respect .


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/sheffield-research-twitter-abuse-politicians-1.718634
> 
> More research. Also concluding that high profile male politicians get more abuse.


Thanks . I wonder how Chaka Umunna and London's Mayor Sadiq Khan cope with the abuse they receive.
I was hoping Chaka would run for Leadership but he pulled out. he is rather handsome.


----------



## Magyarmum

emmaviolet said:


> And that's kind of the issue. As soon as race is even mentioned it gets people's backs up and makes people too uncomfortable to mention it. But it just is a factor that cannot be disputed any longer.
> 
> Anyway, I'm off now, so there will be no further 'disruption' from me, even though it was an ongoing discussion from many members off of the back of one comment from me.


You're jumping to a conclusion and the wrong one at that. I was irritated by your narrow thinking, nothing more!

I worked for years on rural community projects where very often I was the only white person and non Zulu. The differences in colour were spoken about openly and often we'd all have a good laugh about my white skin, none of which was meant to insult.

I also lived in a city which was predominately Indian, and naturally many of my friends and neighbours were either Muslim or Hindu by religion. We all respected our different religions and discussed them freely and I was privileged to be invited to several Muslim and Hindu weddings.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't see the thread, but have now and passed on my congratulations.
> 
> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


I am so very sorry to hear this sad news about your Mum, Arnie xx


----------



## Arnie83

*MPs likely to lose their February half-term recess because of Brexit, Leadsom confirms*

Widely reported, and about time too!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Two weeks ago John Baron`s amendment was well and truly rejected by parliament. The amendment was to give the UK the unilateral right to exit the back stop. 
This is John Barons press release:

_"My amendment would have given the Prime Minister a strong mandate to resolve the 'backstop trap' with the EU by giving the UK a unilateral mechanism to exit it, and it is a shame that it was not more widely supported."_

It was barely supported at all, just 24 votes for, a whooping 600 against!

This week we see parliament voting in favour of Theresa May negotiating changes to the backstop. Amongst the various options of what TM could ask for is a unilateral mechanism to exit the back stop.

So if this is what she manages to come back with this do we expect to see it rejected as the MPs have made their feelings about it very clear already!


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> And that's kind of the issue. As soon as race is even mentioned it gets people's backs up and makes people too uncomfortable to mention it. But it just is a factor that cannot be disputed any longer.
> 
> Anyway, I'm off now, so there will be no further 'disruption' from me, even though it was an ongoing discussion from many members off of the back of one comment from me.


 But she didnt say it as soon as race was mentioned, did she ? The discussion had been going on sometime.
Youre banging on about stuff, making assumptions and repeating yourself and when people get exasperated you're saying they're uncomfortable with it .
I suppose now you'll be accusing us of victim blaming you now.

Let me ask you whether this was a racist and sexist incident.

Im white , I came back from the vets and my off street parking was blocked by a school parent . He was an Asian man sitting in the car with his wife.
I tooted my horn and indicated that I wanted to get into my drive and he ignore me. I got out and knocked on the window , he refused to open his window and didnt even look at me.

I was blocking the street but refused to moved for a good 10 minutes until the head teacher came out and asked him to move.
To this day I still don't know why this man did that . I didnt know him .

Was it was because I was a white woman?. If the situation had been reverse. I.d bet *I'd* be accuses of racism .


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Thanks . I wonder how Chaka Umunna and London's Mayor Sadiq Khan cope with the abuse they receive.
> I was hoping Chaka would run for Leadership but he pulled out. he is rather handsome.


I like Chaka and was hoping he would be lead the labour party. The abuse Sadiq Khan gets is absolutely disgusting makes me feel sick that people can be so vile, I don`t understand what is wrong with them!


----------



## noushka05

*Ivanka Majic*‏Verified account @ivanka Jan 30
_When I was 14 I lived in a country called Yugoslavia.

* This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

We had hyperinflation. That means that they had to knock zeros of the currency 
so you didn't have to carry buckets of cash.

* This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

We had lots of nationalist chatter. Even some pop songs that triggered fights at school discos.

*This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

Then I was 15. Teachers didn't get paid. My mother was a teacher, so I know.

* But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

It's the others people blamed. The ones not like us.

* But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

I was in Mostar in school and I wondered how I would get home if there was a war.

*But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*

When I was 16 my parents went out to dinner one night. I babysat my siblings. It was a Saturday. We are going to England, my parents said,

* we think there will be war.*

I*t was 1991, and there was war.*

It is 2019, I am 44, and I live in Britain.

* But this is Britain people keep saying.*

..............

_


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> *MPs likely to lose their February half-term recess because of Brexit, Leadsom confirms*
> 
> Widely reported, and about time too!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> *Is WTO Article 24 the antidote to a No Deal Brexit? Euronews Answers*
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/amp/2019/0...antidote-to-a-no-deal-brexit-euronews-answers
> 
> Nigel Farage, one of the UK's leading proponents of a 'hard Brexit' told Euronews yesterday that the negative impacts of Britain leaving the EU without a deal could be eliminated by the use of "Article 24 of the World Trade Organisation (WTO)".
> 
> *Is there any other major issue with using this provision to alleviate the trade and border challenges associated with a No Deal Brexit?*
> Yes. Both sides need to agree, also known as having a deal. The EU has always refused to negotiate future trade arrangments until it has reached agreement with the UK over issues such as citizens rights, budget payments and the Northern Irish border.
> 
> Under the agreement Theresa May reached with Brussels last year, and rejected by the UK parliament, it was envisioned that there would be a two-year transition period under which the current trading relationships would be continued while the sides negotiated a new regime.
> 
> If there is no deal, the UK can continue to trade with the EU, but on the same terms as with any other WTO members with which it does not have a specific deal - this would mean an average of 4.3% tax for UK exports to the EU and 5.7% for imports from the EU, according to the Confederation for British Industry.


If you did your research you would know Farage & the other brextremists are lying about Article 24!



rona said:


> It's not the back stop that anyone really disagrees with, it's the never ending nature of the back stop


*Aodhán Ó Ríordáin*‏Verified account @AodhanORiordain

_For the love of.... _

_Dear







:

The. Backstop. Was. Your. Idea.

There. Will. Be. No. Change. 
To. What. You. Already. Agreed. To.

The. Backstop. Is. Not. Going. To. Be. 
Changed.

Good. Luck._

...............


----------



## noushka05

_"Many national leaders simply cannot conceive this partner -whom they had for so long regarded as relentlessly competent, if a little self-interested - can genuinely be on the verge of such a massive act of self-sabotage."_
_

*The world needs to start panicking about Brexit*

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/29/...of-no-deal-brexit-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> If you did your research you would know Farage & the other brextremists are lying about Article 24!


I was only quoting the article by euro news. Your tone comes across quite agressive.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> _"Many national leaders simply cannot conceive this partner -whom they had for so long regarded as relentlessly competent, if a little self-interested - can genuinely be on the verge of such a massive act of self-sabotage."
> 
> *The world needs to start panicking about Brexit*
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/29/...of-no-deal-brexit-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html_


I have better things to do with my time than panic about something out of my control like dealing with things I can control.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> *Ivanka Majic*‏Verified account @ivanka Jan 30
> _When I was 14 I lived in a country called Yugoslavia.
> 
> * This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> We had hyperinflation. That means that they had to knock zeros of the currency
> so you didn't have to carry buckets of cash.
> 
> * This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> We had lots of nationalist chatter. Even some pop songs that triggered fights at school discos.
> 
> *This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> Then I was 15. Teachers didn't get paid. My mother was a teacher, so I know.
> 
> * But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> It's the others people blamed. The ones not like us.
> 
> * But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> I was in Mostar in school and I wondered how I would get home if there was a war.
> 
> *But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> When I was 16 my parents went out to dinner one night. I babysat my siblings. It was a Saturday. We are going to England, my parents said,
> 
> * we think there will be war.*
> 
> I*t was 1991, and there was war.*
> 
> It is 2019, I am 44, and I live in Britain.
> 
> * But this is Britain people keep saying.
> *_
> 
> _
> ..............
> 
> _


More melodrama!

Absolutely NO comparison between the Yugoslavia of 1991 and the UK of 2019.

Do try reading your history!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17632399

*Balkans war: a brief guide*

*







*


----------



## stockwellcat.

BBC News. Theresa May on her way back to Brussels gaffe


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> This week we see parliament voting in favour of Theresa May negotiating changes to the backstop. Amongst the various options of what TM could ask for is a unilateral mechanism to exit the back stop.
> 
> *So if this is what she manages to come back with *this do we expect to see it rejected as the MPs have made their feelings about it very clear already!


It can't be; if we could walk away from the backstop 1 day after it is implemented - if it is - then even the ERG couldn't claim if was a backstop!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *Ivanka Majic*‏Verified account @ivanka Jan 30
> _When I was 14 I lived in a country called Yugoslavia.
> 
> * This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> We had hyperinflation. That means that they had to knock zeros of the currency
> so you didn't have to carry buckets of cash.
> 
> * This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> We had lots of nationalist chatter. Even some pop songs that triggered fights at school discos.
> 
> *This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> Then I was 15. Teachers didn't get paid. My mother was a teacher, so I know.
> 
> * But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> It's the others people blamed. The ones not like us.
> 
> * But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> I was in Mostar in school and I wondered how I would get home if there was a war.
> 
> *But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.*
> 
> When I was 16 my parents went out to dinner one night. I babysat my siblings. It was a Saturday. We are going to England, my parents said,
> 
> * we think there will be war.*
> 
> I*t was 1991, and there was war.*
> 
> It is 2019, I am 44, and I live in Britain.
> 
> * But this is Britain people keep saying.*
> 
> ..............
> 
> _


I don't think there is even a remote chance of the UK ending up at war because of Brexit.

If Brexit does lead to a long-term unravelling of the EU, though, then I can think of scenarios in which a shouting match between countries where, say, right wing parties are squabbling over southern refugees, could conceivably become a shooting one.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I have better things to do with my time than panic about something out of my control like dealing with things I can control.


Better things to do than 'fact check'. Says it all. This is why we're in this mess because many people STILL choose to believe lies.



Magyarmum said:


> More melodrama!
> 
> Absolutely NO comparison between the Yugoslavia of 1991 and the UK of 2019.
> 
> Do try reading your history!
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17632399
> 
> *Balkans war: a brief guide*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Brexit will throw this country into chaos. Food & medical shortages. Millions of job losses, recession. No health service. And its all self inflicted - only the morally bankrupt right wing MPs, their mate in the media & their supporters will seek to pin the blame on the EU for 'punishing' us.

James Patrick:

_What Brexit will do is create a starving, poor, and incredibly angry state on the doorstep of Europe.

Open to hostile partnerships. Open to corruption.

And with a rabid population itching for a fight, as they accepted the blame narrative too.

War is born in these situation
_

,


----------



## KittenKong

Grigori said:


> I do not understand why you are suspicious for me. I am born Russian but I do not support communist idea Stalin or Lenin. I do not want to murder your royal family.


Incredible isn't. I'm in Spain at the moment and see comments like this from posters in the UK.
No wonder it's become a laughing stock.

In fairness to SWC his thoughts are typical of the average "Brit" who was brought up to love Queen and "Country". However much I personally detest this I hear his sort of content all the time from "British" people in the UK, wherever I go, even at work.

It's become a ghastly place to live and I'm not looking forward to returning when I have to, but there's work and other commitments.

I am so disgusted and ashamed of what was my place of origin has become.

Not in my name. I am European.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think there is even a remote chance of the UK ending up at war because of Brexit.
> 
> If Brexit does lead to a long-term unravelling of the EU, though, then I can think of scenarios in which a shouting match between countries where, say, right wing parties are squabbling over southern refugees, could conceivably become a shooting one.


I'm afraid I fear the worst Arnie. Chaos aside. Hostile forces are behind brexit - we will be isolated. And then theres climate breakdown on the horizon.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I am so very sorry to hear this sad news about your Mum, Arnie xx


Very sorry to hear this too Arnie.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> In fairness to SWC his thoughts are typical of the average "Brit" who was brought up to love Queen and "Country". However much I personally detest this I hear his sort of content all the time from "British" people in the UK, wherever I go, even at work.
> 
> It's become a ghastly place to live and I'm not looking forward to returning when I have to, but there's work and other commitments.
> 
> I am so disgusted and ashamed of what was my place of origin has become.
> 
> Not in my name. I am European.


What?

I am trying to understand what you are going on about as it doesn't make sense. Sorry not having a go or anything but you seem to be making an issue of nothing.

I was very polite to Grigori and explained myself and you are blowing things up into a full scale issue. Why the drama kk?

Why make an issue about nothing?

It is you that seems very angry not me by the way.


----------



## KittenKong

I Stand United with Europe.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> It can't be; if we could walk away from the backstop 1 day after it is implemented - if it is - then even the ERG couldn't claim if was a backstop!


I know, it just all seems crazy to me, we`ve got a situation where HoP almost as one rejected the very idea the UK could end the back stop without consulting the EU, now seemingly want to send her back to possibly explore doing just!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> It doesn't work like that. Alot of this is hysteria.
> 
> The EU have an emergency plan in place and have said things will carry on in the event of no deal as normal for 12 months. I have posted a link to the EU No Deal Emergency plan on here.


This is a superb explanation of the misunderstandings around that WTO "Article 24" nonsense... by an Aussie trade expert'

(Listen here)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088726835498762240


----------



## noushka05

Yep, our countrys reputation is in tatters thanks to the morally bankrupt tories & their brexitshambles .

*Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 6h6 hours ago

_
Times letter says everything. PM has indeed reneged on a deal, our country's reputation lies in tatters & the clock ticks down to disastrous #NoDealBrexit Senior politicians must take action:we need leadership, a firm grip on #Brexit & "country before party" before it's too late








_


----------



## noushka05

Nails it!

*James Patrick *‏:

_You will hear a lot of people saying "This is the EU's fault."

That's untrue.

Wealthy British people making money from your misery are to blame.

They want you to have less so they can have more.

They fudged Brexit on purpose to do this.

They don't care about any of you

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## noushka05

Great news.

Engexit is all that's left of Brexit

*Simon Scham*a:_

The Welsh Assembly has voted against Brexit; Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted heavily to Remain.

So when May,m ERG etc bang on about the British people they mean the English -

Brexit is actually just Exit.

...._


----------



## 3dogs2cats

noushka05 said:


> Yep, our countrys reputation is in tatters thanks to the morally bankrupt tories & their brexitshambles .
> 
> *Anna Soubry MP*‏Verified account @Anna_Soubry 6h6 hours ago
> 
> _
> Times letter says everything. PM has indeed reneged on a deal, our country's reputation lies in tatters & the clock ticks down to disastrous #NoDealBrexit Senior politicians must take action:we need leadership, a firm grip on #Brexit & "country before party" before it's too late
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


The EU must be utterly confused by the UK government!

I see Tm`s official spokesperson has had to release a statement after Hunts, `we may have to delay Article 50` remark. Makes me laugh when she asks them to release a statement. I can imagine them begging her not to make them do it as she changes her mind half an hour later! Bring back spitting image I say, all the characters involved in this just lend themselves perfectly to spitting image sketches


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> isn't that racist in a way ?


It was pretty much a ''first'' for the royal family, hence worthy of mention presumably, and many people remember the problems which Mrs Simpson, another American divorcee caused (tho' Harry is obviously not as high-ranking as Edward was and divorce is rife in the royal family now).


----------



## noushka05

3dogs2cats said:


> The EU must be utterly confused by the UK government!
> 
> I see Tm`s official spokesperson has had to release a statement after Hunts, `we may have to delay Article 50` remark. Makes me laugh when she asks them to release a statement. I can imagine them begging her not to make them do it as she changes her mind half an hour later! Bring back spitting image I say, all the characters involved in this just lend themselves perfectly to spitting image sketches


Satire has become reality with this bunch of hopeless clowns


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Was it was because I was a white woman?. If the situation had been reverse. I.d bet *I'd* be accuses of racism .


 Annoys me too that as a white person you cannot_ possibly _be the victim of racial prejudice. Not much!!


----------



## noushka05

Taking back control.

_The US meat lobby is salivating at the "once in a lifetime opportunity" Brexit allows.

This is the true face of 'taking back control' - meat pumped with hormones & God knows what else, in the absence of EU standards

*US firms seek changes to UK standards on beef and drugs*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119_

(via Rachel Clarke)


----------



## noushka05

At least the leave supporters on here rooting for no deal will be happy. And the remainers can at least be satisfied they played no part in the forthcoming crisis which will destroy the country we knew.

*James Patrick:
*
_Two years ago: sources clearly stated the Government would lead us to no deal deliberately, blaming "EU intransigence."

One year ago: sources clearly stated internal communications showed May had capitulated to the ERG on this.

Now: it is too late to stop this.

It is happening._

......


----------



## noushka05

*'Trauma packs' being stockpiled in UK over fears of no-deal Brexit*
*Exclusive:* pharmaceutical giant Johnson & Johnson fears border delays could disrupt flow of vital medical supplie

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...stockpiled-in-uk-over-fears-of-no-deal-brexit


----------



## stockwellcat.

Rest of the article is here: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/31/uk/brexit-is-happening-intl-gbr/index.html


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> What?
> 
> I am trying to understand what you are going on about as it doesn't make sense. Sorry not having a go or anything but you seem to be making an issue of nothing.
> 
> I was very polite to Grigori and explained myself and you are blowing things up into a full scale issue. Why the drama kk?
> 
> Why make an issue about nothing?
> 
> It is you that seems very angry not me by the way.


Of course it doesn't make sense .... how silly of you to think so.

His problem is too much Sangria with his sausage and mash for lunch .......................... and then what happens?

Having s*** you out about being sentimental about the Royals et al, he gets all maudlin about the EU

What a joke!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> Of course it doesn't make sense .... how silly of you to think so.
> 
> His problem is too much Sangria with his sausage and mash for lunch .......................... and then what happens?
> 
> Having s*** you out about being sentimental about the Royals et al, he gets all maudlin about the EU
> 
> What a joke!


:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Nails it!
> 
> *James Patrick *‏:
> 
> _You will hear a lot of people saying "This is the EU's fault."
> 
> That's untrue.
> 
> Wealthy British people making money from your misery are to blame.
> 
> They want you to have less so they can have more.
> 
> They fudged Brexit on purpose to do this.
> 
> They don't care about any of you
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


I'm not sure about this. There are certainly people who will make a lot of money out of Brexit, but I don't think it is the motivation for a majority of those organising it. The UK would be richer without Brexit, and business owners know that. Surely it's not all hedge fund gamblers who are pulling the strings here.

No; listening to the likes of Rees-Mogg, Bone, Francois etc it seems to me that they simply don't think the UK England should be a member of a club of equals when we proved in the very recent WWII how superior we are. We are an island nation and should stand alone, and astride the world, disseminating wisdom, advice and moral guidance to those who have the misfortune to be foreign.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Stockwellcat​


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Annoys me too that as a white person you cannot_ possibly _be the victim of racial prejudice. Not much!!


It does happen and also false accusations.
In this case, the bloke was a typical west london school parent , blocking the drives , parking on yellow lines etc
I just think he was having a bad hair day and taking it out on me but if it had been the other way round and the man made a racist complaint against me to the police , it would have been investigated.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I am so disgusted and ashamed of what was my place of origin has become.
> 
> Not in my name. I am European.


 and no Europeans are racists, are they ! :Hilarious

ETA I wonder what the Aussies would think about this thread . I bet they'd call us whinging poms !


----------



## Arnie83

We're saved!

*Brexit: Unilever stockpiles Ben & Jerry's and Magnum ice creams*


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> We're saved!
> 
> *Brexit: Unilever stockpiles Ben & Jerry's and Magnum ice creams*


Now that's more like it. Stock up on essential luxuries


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> We're saved!
> 
> *Brexit: Unilever stockpiles Ben & Jerry's and Magnum ice creams*


The government, on the other hand, probably aren't


----------



## grumpy goby

kimthecat said:


> and no Europeans are racists, are they ! :Hilarious
> 
> ETA I wonder what the Aussies would think about this thread . I bet they'd call us whinging poms !


I work with a lot of Aussies, and both Aussies and Kiwis pretty unanimously think the whole thing is ridiculous. It's a bit of a joke!

Also, all you have to do is mention the weather to earn the whinging Pom title.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesus, if the BBC couldn't get any lower or more biased...


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Better things to do than 'fact check'. Says it all. This is why we're in this mess because many people STILL choose to believe lies.
> 
> Brexit will throw this country into chaos. Food & medical shortages. Millions of job losses, recession. No health service. And its all self inflicted - only the morally bankrupt right wing MPs, their mate in the media & their supporters will seek to pin the blame on the EU for 'punishing' us.
> 
> James Patrick:
> 
> _What Brexit will do is create a starving, poor, and incredibly angry state on the doorstep of Europe.
> 
> Open to hostile partnerships. Open to corruption.
> 
> And with a rabid population itching for a fight, as they accepted the blame narrative too.
> 
> War is born in these situation_
> 
> ,


And who is this James Patrick when he's around? The Oracle? the Prophet Isaiah? Nostradamus maybe?

If you wish to hang onto his every word then that's your prerogative.

I prefer to get my information from people who have proven track records and can put forward a balanced argument, rather than a tweeter that I don't know from Adam who seems only capable of spouting hyperbole.


----------



## Jesthar

grumpy goby said:


> I work with a lot of Aussies, and both Aussies and Kiwis pretty unanimously think the whole thing is ridiculous. It's a bit of a joke!


I went for a massage and facial at a new place today, a lovely lady who moved from South Africa a decade or so ago. We had a brief Brexit related discussion; amongst other things she said one of the things she'd loved most when she finally became eligible for a British passport was not having to go to Londan and spend the whole day at an Embassy (with kids) in order to get a visa to travel to many countries worldwide. She doesn't understand why on earth we'd want to go back to that kind off system, even on a smaller scale.

The rest of the discussion can pretty much be summarised as 'Saffers reckon the UK is bonkers...'


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> I went for a massage and facial at a new place today, a lovely lady who moved from South Africa a decade or so ago. We had a brief Brexit related discussion; amongst other things she said one of the things she'd loved most when she finally became eligible for a British passport was not having to go to Londan and spend the whole day at an Embassy (with kids) in order to get a visa to travel to many countries worldwide. She doesn't understand why on earth we'd want to go back to that kind off system, even on a smaller scale.
> 
> The rest of the discussion can pretty much be summarised as 'Saffers reckon the UK is bonkers...'


I get the impression that everyone reckons the UK is bonkers apart from a lot of leave voters and Donald Trump!


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> And who is this James Patrick when he's around?


He's a professional troll


----------



## grumpy goby

Jesthar said:


> I went for a massage and facial at a new place today, a lovely lady who moved from South Africa a decade or so ago. We had a brief Brexit related discussion; amongst other things she said one of the things she'd loved most when she finally became eligible for a British passport was not having to go to Londan and spend the whole day at an Embassy (with kids) in order to get a visa to travel to many countries worldwide. She doesn't understand why on earth we'd want to go back to that kind off system, even on a smaller scale.
> 
> The rest of the discussion can pretty much be summarised as 'Saffers reckon the UK is bonkers...'


Basically the long and short of it here too.

We are very remote and so everyone I have met think the concept of having Europe on your doorstep to travel and work within easily and freely is amazing and don't get why we would throw that away.... not to mention pretty much everything here is more expensive 

ETA; despite that I'm never leaving. It's beautiful and the people (kiwi and migrant kiwi-adoptees) are awesome.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> It was pretty much a ''first'' for the royal family, hence worthy of mention presumably, and many people remember the problems which Mrs Simpson, another American divorcee caused (tho' Harry is obviously not as high-ranking as Edward was and divorce is rife in the royal family now).


I don't think it was simply because Mrs Simpson was an American divorcee, it was also because both she and the King were known to be sympathetic to Hitler and the Government were worried he might try to form a British/Nazi Germany alliance.

We've recently had a series on Viasat TV on both the Duke of Kent who was killed in a plane crash whilst supposedly on his way to Iceland and the Duke of Windsor and his connection to the Nazis which is well worth watching if you get a chance.

An article about the Duke of Windsor written after declassified FBI files had been released.

https://www.sbs.com.au/blog/119872/t/The-Nazi-King-fool-or-traitor

and one about George The Duke of Kent

https://therake.com/stories/icons/the-forgotten-prince/


----------



## kimthecat

grumpy goby said:


> I work with a lot of Aussies, and both Aussies and Kiwis pretty unanimously think the whole thing is ridiculous. It's a bit of a joke!
> 
> Also, all you have to do is mention the weather to earn the whinging Pom title.


Can you ask them whats happening in Neighbours ? :Hilarious


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Incredible isn't. I'm in Spain at the moment and see comments like this from posters in the UK.
> No wonder it's become a laughing stock.
> 
> In fairness to SWC his thoughts are typical of the average "Brit" who was brought up to love Queen and "Country". However much I personally detest this I hear his sort of content all the time from "British" people in the UK, wherever I go, even at work.
> 
> It's become a ghastly place to live and I'm not looking forward to returning when I have to, but there's work and other commitments.
> 
> I am so disgusted and ashamed of what was my place of origin has become.
> 
> Not in my name. I am European.


This pretty much sums it up.

I have very dark eyes and hair, I apparently look 'foreign' even though I actually am British, and you won't believe how certain people treat me, from straight up insults, from asking me a lot of questions as to where I am 'really' from to at first treating me with scepticism as they initially believed I was foreign.
I've gotten into a cab and before I could speak the driver was incredibly rude, until I then spoke up with a very British accent.



noushka05 said:


> Nails it!
> 
> *James Patrick *‏:
> 
> _You will hear a lot of people saying "This is the EU's fault."
> 
> That's untrue.
> 
> Wealthy British people making money from your misery are to blame.
> 
> They want you to have less so they can have more.
> 
> They fudged Brexit on purpose to do this.
> 
> They don't care about any of you
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


If you needed any proof, there's that photo of Nigel Farrage celebrating as our pound fell just after the vote. I'll never forget that, but it's something his followers and excusers don't like to focus on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I used to be a quiet and reserved person. What happened? 










10,037 messages (Boy that's alot of talking).
10,930 Likes (oh well I am like with what I say)


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Can you ask them whats happening in Neighbours ? :Hilarious


*NOoooo*


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> *NOoooo*


 Im off to watch Home and Away now.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Great news.
> 
> Engexit is all that's left of Brexit
> 
> *Simon Scham*a:_
> 
> The Welsh Assembly has voted against Brexit; Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted heavily to Remain.
> 
> So when May,m ERG etc bang on about the British people they mean the English -
> 
> Brexit is actually just Exit.
> 
> ...._


I thought the welsh voted in favour of Brexit in the referendum?


----------



## KittenKong

An exclusive preview of draft of Glen Noble's short story '2024', Chapter 3.

2024 Chapter 3.

2021.

The demise of British agriculture and farming leads to a crisis in food supplies. Meanwhile with farms becoming fracking sites earth tremors become more frequent.
These are dismissed as scaremongering by the media.

With all access to Europe closed the only way to get food supplies is via the Irish border checkpoints, though the cost is prohibitive for most except the rich who didn't go hungry.

Indeed, the rich are richer than ever having escaped the EU's tax avoidance rules just in time.

Meanwhile civil unrest persists with the UK operating under Martial Law. Prime Minister Thelma Jay starts seriously falling behind in the polls despite the media's best efforts in drawing up continued support. They are only a few distractions and royal babies to be born.

Professionals from other countries who were allowed to remain following settled status start leaving the UK voluntarily, no longer being able to stomach the hostile environment and taunts of abuse, as they're continued to be made the scapegoats and are blamed for their accelerating hardship and poverty following Brexit.

They're the only people who are allowed to leave the UK.

Although proud of their return to blue passports these were nothing more than a fashion statement with Martial Law preventing the proud patriots from using them.

The NHS is plunged into further chaos having already seen a large number of "Junior" staff deported at the end of 2020.

The take up in training British staff also plummets with the inability of most people to afford the tuition fees. The resultant chaos has also put many off nursing.

It's not a good time for Thelma Jay. Having caused so much trouble for the EU with her frequent trips to Brussels demanding they accept her plan or else, she found herself indefinitely banned from entry to anywhere within the EU/EEA which became the only good consolation in her determination of the loss of the public's freedom of movement which backfired on her personally.

For no longer could she venture over to Switzerland for holidays either.

She turns to a traditional friend the US and their President Dominick Scrump. The President agreed to a major rescue package but comes at a cost. The Americans were given what was left of the UK including the NHS.

However, the deal nearly fell through when President Scrump insisted Thelma Jay stood down with former Foreign Secretary Benedict Jenkinson installed in her place as Prime Minister. Fortunately for her he had already escaped from the UK and was in hiding, so was not available to abide by the President's ruling.

Thelma Jay remained as Prime Minister and got her deal, briefly boosting her position in the polls, but such euphoria for her were becoming less frequent and short lived.

The people of the UK no longer went hungry. President Strump insisted he'd have to put America first so could only supply food that would have ended up in the trash can, in other words not fit for human consumption in US standards let alone EU ones that are superior to theirs to start with.

This was especially with perishable produce which was just about edible on leaving the US, but by the time it reached the UK...

A simple remedy was the abolition of Sell By dates which was seen as a Health and Safety inconvenience.

Nevertheless, the people of the UK were grateful. They voted for this after all. Britain was becoming British again, even having become an annex of the US in all but name.

Weights and measures differ between the UK and US so produce had to carry both measures, eg: a US pint of milk was marked 1 US Pint and 16 UK fluid ounces. The metric equivalent had been banned from all labelling as it was considered European, thus a hostile format.

Meanwhile, some petrol stations are getting away with selling fuel with US measures at the same price. With the abolition of the Trade Descriptions Act, they are allowed to get away with this

With a General Election away within a year with Thelma Jay's proposed indefinite cancellations of further General Elections in the national interest defeated heavilly in Parliament, herself and her friends in the media had to come up with something dramatic to ensure her continued dominance over the people of the UK.

But she couldn't do it alone..

TO BE CONTINUED


----------



## Satori

stockwellcat. said:


> I was very polite to Grigori and explained myself and you are blowing things up into a full scale issue. Why the drama kk?


Because you insult Grigori, you insult his parents. Is it not obvious that Grigori is the lovechild of Cheekyscrip and Kittenkong?


----------



## MilleD

Satori said:


> Because you insult Grigori, you insult his parents. Is it not obvious that Grigori is the lovechild of Cheekyscrip and Kittenkong?


Sorry but that's almost plausible in a weird sort of way....


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> We're saved!
> 
> *Brexit: Unilever stockpiles Ben & Jerry's and Magnum ice creams*


Surely something that's frozen is in essence already stockpiled??


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> An exclusive preview of draft of Glen Noble's short story '2024', Chapter 3.
> 
> 2024 Chapter 3.
> 
> 2021.
> 
> The demise of British agriculture and farming leads to a crisis in food supplies. Meanwhile with farms becoming fracking sites earth tremors become more frequent.
> These are dismissed as scaremongering by the media.
> 
> With all access to Europe closed the only way to get food supplies is via the Irish border checkpoints, though the cost is prohibitive for most except the rich who didn't go hungry.
> 
> Indeed, the rich are richer than ever having escaped the EU's tax avoidance rules just in time.
> 
> Meanwhile civil unrest persists with the UK operating under Martial Law. Prime Minister Thelma Jay starts seriously falling behind in the polls despite the media's best efforts in drawing up continued support. They are only a few distractions and royal babies to be born.
> 
> Professionals from other countries who were allowed to remain following settled status start leaving the UK voluntarily, no longer being able to stomach the hostile environment and taunts of abuse, as they're continued to be made the scapegoats and are blamed for their accelerating hardship and poverty following Brexit.
> 
> They're the only people who are allowed to leave the UK.
> 
> Although proud of their return to blue passports these were nothing more than a fashion statement with Martial Law preventing the proud patriots from using them.
> 
> The NHS is plunged into further chaos having already seen a large number of "Junior" staff deported at the end of 2020.
> 
> The take up in training British staff also plummets with the inability of most people to afford the tuition fees. The resultant chaos has also put many off nursing.
> 
> It's not a good time for Thelma Jay. Having caused so much trouble for the EU with her frequent trips to Brussels demanding they accept her plan or else, she found herself indefinitely banned from entry to anywhere within the EU/EEA which became the only good consolation in her determination of the loss of the public's freedom of movement which backfired on her personally.
> 
> For no longer could she venture over to Switzerland for holidays either.
> 
> She turns to a traditional friend the US and their President Dominick Scrump. The President agreed to a major rescue package but comes at a cost. The Americans were given what was left of the UK including the NHS.
> 
> However, the deal nearly fell through when President Scrump insisted Thelma Jay stood down with former Foreign Secretary Benedict Jenkinson installed in her place as Prime Minister. Fortunately for her he had already escaped from the UK and was in hiding, so was not available to abide by the President's ruling.
> 
> Thelma Jay remained as Prime Minister and got her deal, briefly boosting her position in the polls, but such euphoria for her were becoming less frequent and short lived.
> 
> The people of the UK no longer went hungry. President Strump insisted he'd have to put America first so could only supply food that would have ended up in the trash can, in other words not fit for human consumption in US standards let alone EU ones that are superior to theirs to start with.
> 
> This was especially with perishable produce which was just about edible on leaving the US, but by the time it reached the UK...
> 
> A simple remedy was the abolition of Sell By dates which was seen as a Health and Safety inconvenience.
> 
> Nevertheless, the people of the UK were grateful. They voted for this after all. Britain was becoming British again, even having become an annex of the US in all but name.
> 
> Weights and measures differ between the UK and US so produce had to carry both measures, eg: a US pint of milk was marked 1 US Pint and 16 UK fluid ounces. The metric equivalent had been banned from all labelling as it was considered European, thus a hostile format.
> 
> Meanwhile, some petrol stations are getting away with selling fuel with US measures at the same price. With the abolition of the Trade Descriptions Act, they are allowed to get away with this
> 
> With a General Election away within a year with Thelma Jay's proposed indefinite cancellations of further General Elections in the national interest defeated heavilly in Parliament, herself and her friends in the media had to come up with something dramatic to ensure her continued dominance over the people of the UK.
> 
> But she couldn't do it alone..
> 
> TO BE CONTINUED


Has some idiot actually wasted time writing this? He must be one of the rich that he speaks of as he plainly doesn't have proper job.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Satori said:


> Because you insult Grigori, you insult his parents. Is it not obvious that Grigori is the lovechild of Cheekyscrip and Kittenkong?


My suspicions are running very high about this Grigori character seeing as he only participates in this (brexit) thread and the climate change thread since he joined, 2 of the most contentious subjects and no other threads bit strange. Plus his English is pitch perfect for someone translating English to Russian and then vice versa via using books (he claimed he was using a book and a dictionary to do this). As well as working and studying he takes along time translating what is said on the Brexit thread and Climate change thread from English into Russian and back again to English and types his replies which take time so he tells us.

There you go I have said what I have said


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> What?
> 
> I am trying to understand what you are going on about as it doesn't make sense. Sorry not having a go or anything but you seem to be making an issue of nothing.
> 
> I was very polite to Grigori and explained myself and you are blowing things up into a full scale issue. Why the drama kk?
> 
> Why make an issue about nothing?
> 
> .


Look how many times Troll has come up on the cat chat section , Don't see KK accusing members of being racist there .

https://www.petforums.co.uk/search/23529381/?q=troll&o=relevance&c[node]=6

Are you snowed in ? You;ll have to eat your No deal brexit supplies.


----------



## Grigori

Hello Stockwellcat. Thank you but I know meaning of word contentious and context for use. This proof I write in my letter. I do not think you read all my letter so I write for you second time. I write for brexit because it is all world subject like climate change is all world subject. I do not have interest for soap subject random chat or vegan subject because I eat meat. I introduce Caucasian brothers Bucovina rescue dog and cat but I do not have photograph. Pet forum tell me photograph is spam. Also I read Caucasian dog is contentious breed for your forum. I do not want to make more trouble writing more for breed.
Now I have question for you. What subject is best subject for new member.
Hello KittenKong. We meet for third time I think. Same happen to my brother in England. My brother work in your Midlands for six years now. Also he have promotion for supervisor. Some workers did not like idea of promotion and tell him. Brexit vote happen and he tell me he is not feeling welcome. They ask when he is going home and tell him go home. I know I am not welcome here also and understand true reason of brexit.
For Stockwellcat. My English teacher ask for you to study meaning for pitch perfect. I do not sing song for you.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Has some idiot actually wasted time writing this? He must be one of the rich that he speaks of as he plainly doesn't have proper job.


Ahem, it was yours truly who wrote it and, yes I do have a proper job!!!

It's a political thriller with serious issues with an element of comedy and, gosh we do need a laugh at the moment. They are only rough drafts from the top of my head.

Rich??? Perhaps I should take that as a compliment as it's always them people admire.


----------



## KittenKong

Grigori said:


> Hello Stockwellcat. Thank you but I know meaning of word contentious and context for use. This proof I write in my letter. I do not think you read all my letter so I write for you second time. I write for brexit because it is all world subject like climate change is all world subject. I do not have interest for soap subject random chat or vegan subject because I eat meat. I introduce Caucasian brothers Bucovina rescue dog and cat but I do not have photograph. Pet forum tell me photograph is spam. Also I read Caucasian dog is contentious breed for your forum. I do not want to make more trouble writing more for breed.
> Now I have question for you. What subject is best subject for new member.
> Hello KittenKong. We meet for third time I think. Same happen to my brother in England. My brother work in your Midlands for six years now. Also he have promotion for supervisor. Some workers did not like idea of promotion and tell him. Brexit vote happen and he tell me he is not feeling welcome. They ask when he is going home and tell him go home. I know I am not welcome here also and understand true reason of brexit.
> For Stockwellcat. My English teacher ask for you to study meaning for pitch perfect. I do not sing song for you.


I feel like a stranger in the UK and my birth certificate tells me I was born there. I dead to think how those who weren't must be feeling.

I love your last sentence. Get me to stand up for the National Anthem?, get behind my "country"?, not a chance in hell.

I've paid my taxes, so have done my bit, but want out of the UK as soon as I can retire.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Grigori
Striking exactly the right note or tone: "He spoke beautiful English."

It is in the dictionary.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> he gets all maudlin about the EU


I suspect a lot of leave supporters will be feeling maudlin about the EU when they can't get the medicines they need & when more become available they'll have to pay extortionate prices for them 

*Health*
*The pharmaceutical industry is also gearing up for negotiations to start.*

*PhRMA, which represents drug makers in the US such as AbbVie Merck and Novartis, said it wanted a deal to address the barriers to access it currently faces in the UK, pointing to items such as government price controls.*

*It heavily criticised the current NHS drug approval system, pointing to the cap on the price of drugs as too restrictive, and highlighting insufficient healthcare budgets and "rigid" national processes.*

*The organisation, as well as some other groups, are also hoping to secure patent protections for certain types of drugs for at least 12 years, among other demand*

They even charge you for holding your own baby in the US. Redwood, Hannan, Mogg, Gove & co must be on cloud nine - the full privatisation of our NHS is a libertarians dream.












Magyarmum said:


> And who is this James Patrick when he's around? The Oracle? the Prophet Isaiah? Nostradamus maybe?
> 
> If you wish to hang onto his every word then that's your prerogative.
> 
> I prefer to get my information from people who have proven track records and can put forward a balanced argument, rather than a tweeter that I don't know from Adam who seems only capable of spouting hyperbole.


James Patrick is a journalist amongst other things MM. https://www.byline.com/journalist/jamespatrick/biography

https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/2410

. And those of us who 'hang on to his every word' could see ages ago how this would pan out because James predicted it almost to the letter!

Disaster capitalism awaits us now & the lying tories & their mates in the media will blame the intransigence on the EU & Ireland. Which is exactly how they're already framing it. And their foolish followers will accept the narrative ensuring they hate the EU even more, whilst letting the REAL destroyers of this country off the hook. It couldn't be going any better for the right wing extremists.

*Oct 6, 2018*


noushka05 said:


> Really interesting thread by *James Patrick.*
> 
> Right, I really don't care whether people listen to this Brexit thread. It's just here. This is a sanitised briefing. It is rated as "high level of confidence" and
> supported by OSINT, meaning it comes from multiple, reliable sources and is supported by open source information
> 
> Numerous sources have confirmed the British government is deliberately aiming for a no deal Brexit outcome in order to take advantage of extended powers available to
> them under the scenario - including civil contingencies and so-called Henry VIII.
> 
> The Chequers plan is a ploy designed to engage the EU in distraction from the desired British outcome and create a false narrative at home in the UK that the EU are responsible
> 
> Sources claim emergency legislation is being prepared for January next year (2019) when the Withdrawal Act no deal deadlines pass - this would be 29/01 and the civil contingencies secretariat have been convened as per leaked Hammond notes recently, adding credibility
> 
> On Ireland: The British government hopes the EU will be forced to move first and install a hard border in Ireland in order to avoid blame itself for a situation it has created. Further sources claim the data harvested during Repeal 8th will be used in some "unity" campaign
> 
> The British government has progressed trade talks with the US to the point of potential emergency supply, moving substantially beyond informal discussions - though the Trump administration should not be taken at its word, a degree of reliance on this has been factored in UK side.
> 
> The government intends to create a tax haven on the EU's doorstep to exploit financial service deregulation. This speaks for itself.
> 
> The British government aims to prevent France and other EU countries from properly preparing for no deal by continuing to falsely engage in the negotiations in bad faith, keeping the EU27 from moving from early stage plans to contingency measures as long as possible
> 
> The British government hopes this will create a ripple effect of impact so it can later pursue a "Europe in chaos" narrative of disinformation and exploit the situation. In short hoping to spread the load of no deal impact, particularly into France due to geographical impact
> 
> The British government hopes this collateral damage will add to planned disruption around the EU election processes next spring and they will use dissident relationships to further this - likely to include *Orban*
> 
> The British are aware that contingency planning in France has not yet reached operational unit level even in the GIGN because the general French presumption is that the British government is genuinely engaged in good faith, which they are not.


To which you responded back then 


Magyarmum said:


> Are you sure that's not the script for a new film he's writing? Where's his proof that any of this is correct?
> 
> https://twitter.com/J_amesp





Magyarmum said:


> I prefer to get my information from people who have proven track records and can put forward a balanced argument,


I've seen the people you get your information from. John Redwood, Daniel Hannan et al. You don't need to be a fortune teller to predict the future they envision for us. All you need to do is understand their ideology 

Treating extremist opinions as being equivalent to evidence based expertise or factual information, creates false balance.



rona said:


> He's a professional troll


HE isn't the troll Rona 



emmaviolet said:


> This pretty much sums it up.
> 
> I have very dark eyes and hair, I apparently look 'foreign' even though I actually am British, and you won't believe how certain people treat me, from straight up insults, from asking me a lot of questions as to where I am 'really' from to at first treating me with scepticism as they initially believed I was foreign.
> I've gotten into a cab and before I could speak the driver was incredibly rude, until I then spoke up with a very British accent.
> 
> If you needed any proof, there's that photo of Nigel Farrage celebrating as our pound fell just after the vote. I'll never forget that, but it's something his followers and excusers don't like to focus on.


Predictably, brexit has emboldened the racists. It is turning this country into a sewer.

I saw that with Farage. Thats how much he really cares about this country!. Unfortunately his fans don't even think hes a racist so they will be too blind to see the damage that hideous cretin he has done to this country.



MilleD said:


> I thought the welsh voted in favour of Brexit in the referendum?


They did, but the Welsh Assembly are now calling for a peoples vote as brexit will clearly be catastrophic for Wales. Hopefully the Welsh citizens are far better informed now & will be aware they will lose the massive funding they received from the EU & jobs! Brexit will destroy the manufacturing & farming which the Welsh economy depends upon.

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-wales-cornwall-regional-funding-eu/



KittenKong said:


> An exclusive preview of draft of Glen Noble's short story '2024', Chapter 3.
> 
> 2024 Chapter 3.
> 
> 2021.
> 
> The demise of British agriculture and farming leads to a crisis in food supplies. Meanwhile with farms becoming fracking sites earth tremors become more frequent.
> These are dismissed as scaremongering by the media.
> 
> With all access to Europe closed the only way to get food supplies is via the Irish border checkpoints, though the cost is prohibitive for most except the rich who didn't go hungry.
> 
> Indeed, the rich are richer than ever having escaped the EU's tax avoidance rules just in time.
> 
> Meanwhile civil unrest persists with the UK operating under Martial Law. Prime Minister Thelma Jay starts seriously falling behind in the polls despite the media's best efforts in drawing up continued support. They are only a few distractions and royal babies to be born.
> 
> Professionals from other countries who were allowed to remain following settled status start leaving the UK voluntarily, no longer being able to stomach the hostile environment and taunts of abuse, as they're continued to be made the scapegoats and are blamed for their accelerating hardship and poverty following Brexit.
> 
> They're the only people who are allowed to leave the UK.
> 
> Although proud of their return to blue passports these were nothing more than a fashion statement with Martial Law preventing the proud patriots from using them.
> 
> The NHS is plunged into further chaos having already seen a large number of "Junior" staff deported at the end of 2020.
> 
> The take up in training British staff also plummets with the inability of most people to afford the tuition fees. The resultant chaos has also put many off nursing.
> 
> It's not a good time for Thelma Jay. Having caused so much trouble for the EU with her frequent trips to Brussels demanding they accept her plan or else, she found herself indefinitely banned from entry to anywhere within the EU/EEA which became the only good consolation in her determination of the loss of the public's freedom of movement which backfired on her personally.
> 
> For no longer could she venture over to Switzerland for holidays either.
> 
> She turns to a traditional friend the US and their President Dominick Scrump. The President agreed to a major rescue package but comes at a cost. The Americans were given what was left of the UK including the NHS.
> 
> However, the deal nearly fell through when President Scrump insisted Thelma Jay stood down with former Foreign Secretary Benedict Jenkinson installed in her place as Prime Minister. Fortunately for her he had already escaped from the UK and was in hiding, so was not available to abide by the President's ruling.
> 
> Thelma Jay remained as Prime Minister and got her deal, briefly boosting her position in the polls, but such euphoria for her were becoming less frequent and short lived.
> 
> The people of the UK no longer went hungry. President Strump insisted he'd have to put America first so could only supply food that would have ended up in the trash can, in other words not fit for human consumption in US standards let alone EU ones that are superior to theirs to start with.
> 
> This was especially with perishable produce which was just about edible on leaving the US, but by the time it reached the UK...
> 
> A simple remedy was the abolition of Sell By dates which was seen as a Health and Safety inconvenience.
> 
> Nevertheless, the people of the UK were grateful. They voted for this after all. Britain was becoming British again, even having become an annex of the US in all but name.
> 
> Weights and measures differ between the UK and US so produce had to carry both measures, eg: a US pint of milk was marked 1 US Pint and 16 UK fluid ounces. The metric equivalent had been banned from all labelling as it was considered European, thus a hostile format.
> 
> Meanwhile, some petrol stations are getting away with selling fuel with US measures at the same price. With the abolition of the Trade Descriptions Act, they are allowed to get away with this
> 
> With a General Election away within a year with Thelma Jay's proposed indefinite cancellations of further General Elections in the national interest defeated heavilly in Parliament, herself and her friends in the media had to come up with something dramatic to ensure her continued dominance over the people of the UK.
> 
> But she couldn't do it alone..
> 
> TO BE CONTINUED


I am loving this novel! Its great KK, well done

We're living in Orwellian times & this could almost pass for a work of fact not fiction.

...


----------



## stockwellcat.

@Grigori I believe you are on here (this thread) to cause trouble. I also believe you may not be who you say you are. Others have been voicing the same or similiar things. So if I am wrong I apologise but as a precaution I am popping you on ignore.


----------



## noushka05

Grigori said:


> Hello Stockwellcat. Thank you but I know meaning of word contentious and context for use. This proof I write in my letter. I do not think you read all my letter so I write for you second time. I write for brexit because it is all world subject like climate change is all world subject. I do not have interest for soap subject random chat or vegan subject because I eat meat. I introduce Caucasian brothers Bucovina rescue dog and cat but I do not have photograph. Pet forum tell me photograph is spam. Also I read Caucasian dog is contentious breed for your forum. I do not want to make more trouble writing more for breed.
> Now I have question for you. What subject is best subject for new member.
> Hello KittenKong. We meet for third time I think. Same happen to my brother in England. My brother work in your Midlands for six years now. Also he have promotion for supervisor. Some workers did not like idea of promotion and tell him. Brexit vote happen and he tell me he is not feeling welcome. They ask when he is going home and tell him go home. I know I am not welcome here also and understand true reason of brexit.
> For Stockwellcat. My English teacher ask for you to study meaning for pitch perfect. I do not sing song for you.


Please don't be made to feel unwelcome Grigori. You can post anywhere you like on the forum, Stockwellcat isn't the forum police so just ignore him Very sorry to hear about the horrible treatment your brother has received from some people too. I feel so ashamed of what my country is becoming - and tell him millions of us feel the same. We are on his side.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Surely something that's frozen is in essence already stockpiled??


You mean like frozen assets? I'm told the most popular is the oligarch sorbet - tastes of vodka or so I'm told!

Not exactly Ben and Jerry's more Vlad and Donny's


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 and @KittenKong It is funny isn't it that I am not allowed to voice my concerns yet when you do everyone has to jump in line with you both. I do not claim to be the forum police, I am voicing my concerns like you both do.

Sorry you both feel the way you feel about the UK but I do think you are jumping the gun somewhat as the Government want a deal with the EU so that might happen yet. If you read all the information leaflets online they did say no deal preperations would intensify because they have to towards the end of this as the UK frankly has 2 options the deal or no deal. Corbyn's Customs Union has not been ruled out yet as May showed an interest in it behind closed doors.









https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...king-your-pet-abroad-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

The above guidance link was withdrawn and replaced with this last night:








https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-after-brexit

The point is:


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 and @KittenKong It is funny isn't it that I am not allowed to voice my concerns yet when you do everyone has to jump in line with you both.
> 
> Sorry you both feel the way you feel about the UK but I do think you are jumping the gun somewhat as the Government want a deal with the EU so that might happen yet. If you read all the information leaflets online they did say no deal preperations would intensify because they have to towards the end of this as the UK frankly has 2 options the deal or no deal. Corbyn's Customs Union has not been ruled out yet as May showed an interest in it behinf closed doors.


You have made the same accusations to other members who have joined this thread as you have to Grigori & it is really rude.

You want no deal - & we are heading for no deal. It is mapping out exactly how James Patrick predicted it would. So be happy, its what you want.

,,,,


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> You have made the same accusations to other members who have joined this thread as you have to Grigori & it is really rude.
> 
> You want no deal - & we are heading for no deal. It is mapping out exactly how James Patrick predicted it would. So be happy, its what you want.
> 
> ,,,,


James Patrick

Noushka05's tweeter of the week!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> You have made the same accusations to other members who have joined this thread as you have to Grigori & it is really rude.
> 
> You want no deal - & we are heading for no deal. It is mapping out exactly how James Patrick predicted it would. So be happy, its what you want.
> 
> ,,,,


I am not the only that has been voicing concerns about Grigori behind the scenes noushka. I am brave enough to confront people. Nothing rude about that.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> James Patrick
> 
> Noushka05's tweeter of the week!


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not the only that has been voicing concerns about Grigori behind the scenes noushka. I am brave enough to confront people. Nothing rude about that.


That isn't what you call being brave SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> That isn't what you call being brave SWC.


My inbox has been busy with messages from people on here saying literally the same thing as I voiced. They approached me not the other way around.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I am *not* bullying either @noushka05 and @KittenKong before you start accusing me of that as well. I simply voiced my concerns and as a result you want to blow that out of proportion and try and make an issue. I did say to Grigori that if I am wrong I apologise but have put him on ignore as a precaution. My right to do so. Nothing rude about voicing concerns is there? Grigori is welcome to voice his opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not the only that has been voicing concerns about Grigori behind the scenes noushka. I am brave enough to confront people. Nothing rude about that.


Brave? If others are voicing their concerns about a "None British" poster on an internationally accessed forum, (I'm in Spain as I write this), it just goes to show how pathetically xenophobic many in the UK are.

You do realise your "country" has become a laughing stock don't you?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Brave? If others are voicing their concerns about a "None British" poster on an internationally accessed forum, (I'm in Spain as I write this), it just goes to show how pathetically xenophobic many in the UK are.
> 
> You do realise your "country" has become a laughing stock don't you?


Read what I said and it wasn't xenophobic at all. No one else has made any xenophobic views or comments either just concerns.


----------



## JANICE199

*Let's get back to the topic please. So far this thread has been civil. *


----------



## Elles

Lol, we’ve had people join and just post in the brexit thread, and/or the climate change threads before. Usually they post pro brexit/cc denier posts though and then who is voicing concern over why they joined a petforum and only post in contentious threads?


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Brexit backstop: What are the 'alternative arrangements'?*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47047993

This is a good read if you fancy something to read.

The EU deny this technology exists to use on a border.









This is the technology alternative the UK Government have been suggesting to use in Ireland instead of the backstop.


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> So far this thread has been civil.


I've got three people on ignore now, Janice, all three (unsurprisingly) from the Brexit thread; you yourself are always polite and reasonable, but there's a few who are not.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


> I've got three people on ignore now, Janice, all three (unsurprisingly) from the Brexit thread; you yourself are always polite and reasonable, but here's a few who are not.


To stop me engaging 2 certain people on here because they keep trying to engage me for argumentative reasons and so I don't see the posts, I have put them back on ignore to keep the peace.

I agree @JANICE199 is always polite and reasonable.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time so it isn't something that I would consider less worthy of comment than Brexit.


Very sorry to hear this, and hopefully she will get the best possible care. My friend's mother died in a hospice recently and her family was so impressed with the way she was looked after that they actually asked that donations be made to the hospice rather than floral tributes.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> My mother is about to enter a hospice for her remaining time


I am really sorry to read this about your mum @Arnie83


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Lol, we've had people join and just post in the brexit thread, and/or the climate change threads before. Usually they post pro brexit/cc denier posts though and then who is voicing concern over why they joined a petforum and only post in contentious threads?


Not me.


----------



## emmaviolet

Don't worry Grigori, I have been a member here since 2011, my dog is my profile photo, a dog I had already made many a thread about. When I came back here to join this thread I was even met with questions from certain posters just for having the audacity to join a thread about Brexit, the number one thing people are talking about in the UK!

It's a little ironic, I remember many a member join and start out on a contentious political thread............

You can use any forum in any way you so choose. I am a member of another forum and I only participate in one thread.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Parliaments half term break cancelled.

MP's used to work day and night, weekends and holidays to get legislation and laws through. I think it is right to have their February break cancelled as Brexit is important.


----------



## Elles

emmaviolet said:


> Don't worry Grigori, I have been a member here since 2011, my dog is my profile photo, a dog I had already made many a thread about. When I came back here to join this thread I was even met with questions from certain posters just for having the audacity to join a thread about Brexit, the number one thing people are talking about in the UK!
> 
> It's a little ironic, I remember many a member join and start out on a contentious political thread............
> 
> You can use any forum in any way you so choose. I am a member of another forum and I only participate in one thread.


Did you?  How ridiculous. I too remember people joining and posting only on contentious threads. Usually on the opposite side from Gregori though and they usually end up complained about and even banned.

I'm missing a bit from this thread, it gets a bit too swamped for me.

I'm sorry to read about your mother Arnie83.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Im off to watch Home and Away now.


I haven't watched Home and Away or Neighbours for along time (14+ years). I would be lost if I tried watching them again.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 391274


And if they accept her bribe & they enable May history will not be kind to them! (& hopefully nor will their constituents come the next election!)

Quite!

*David Whitley*‏Verified account @mrdavidwhitley Jan 31
_This is a great way of admitting that northern Leave areas aren't poor because of the EU, but because the government has withheld available money

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...looks-to-exploit-labour-divisions-over-brexit

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Are you snowed in ? You;ll have to eat your No deal brexit supplies.


Not snowed in as such. We have snow but the council have cleared the roads and footpaths. Won't be tucking into my Brexit rations just yet


----------



## noushka05

Project Fear.

*Nearly a third of British businesses planning to relocate over Brexit, industry chiefs warn*
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ird-british-businesses-planning-relocate-over


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


>


Ohh, a source is it?

Reliable is it?

Well placed are they?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Project Fear.
> 
> *Nearly a third of British businesses planning to relocate over Brexit, industry chiefs warn*
> https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ird-british-businesses-planning-relocate-over


Imagine all the cheap real estate going for small independent businesses to fill.

Instead of giving all our money to the small-business-eating-massive-conglomerates


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> Imagine all the cheap real estate going for small independent businesses to fill.
> 
> Instead of giving all our money to the small-business-eating-massive-conglomerates


When they all leave our economy will take a huge hit, people won't have the money to spend in independent shops (which are often more expensive too).

People will also be losing their jobs who are employed by these big companies, and again, there won't be the money to spend in independent shops.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> When they all leave our economy will take a huge hit, people won't have the money to spend in independent shops (which are often more expensive too).
> 
> People will also be losing their jobs who are employed by these big companies, and again, there won't be the money to spend in independent shops.


Lets be honest though, they won't all leave will they. Relocation isn't cheap, hiring a whole new workforce isn't cheap and they will have a multitude of insurance policies and other documents that ties them in to that location for their functioning.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Ohh, a source is it?
> 
> Reliable is it?
> 
> Well placed are they?


Note the date MD. James Patrick's predictions are proving to be scarily accurate. Must be an Oracle or Nostradamus or something 

https://www.byline.com/journalist/jamespatrick/biography



MilleD said:


> Imagine all the cheap real estate going for small independent businesses to fill.
> 
> Instead of giving all our money to the small-business-eating-massive-conglomerates


I'm imagining all the lost jobs.

,,,


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Lets be honest though, they won't all leave will they. Relocation isn't cheap, hiring a whole new workforce isn't cheap and they will have a multitude of insurance policies and other documents that ties them in to that location for their functioning.


I'm not sure you understand the consequences of leaving the SM/CU


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I'm not sure you understand the consequences of leaving the SM/CU


I might sound stupid but what is the SM/CU? Is it the South Manchester Credit Union? Also how does that make any of my points less valid. I know that in a certain law firm we cannot be located outside of the UK for insurance purposes. Same goes for our offsite backup data centres.


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> I might sound stupid but what is the SM/CU?


SM = Single Market
CU = Customs Union


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I might sound stupid but what is the SM/CU? Is it the South Manchester Credit Union? Also how does that make any of my points less valid. I know that in a certain law firm we cannot be located outside of the UK for insurance purposes. Same goes for our offsite backup data centres.


Single market & customs union. The governments own impact assessments on the different brexit scenarios.


----------



## noushka05

*Bosses of Sainsbury's, ASDA, M&S, Co-op, Waitrose, KFC, Pret, Lidl, McDonald's, Costcutter and the British Retail Consortium write to MPs warning about the dangers of a no-deal Brexit for choice, quality and cost of food.

Here's the letter:*


----------



## stockwellcat.

On Friday, EU ambassadors agreed to allow UK citizens visa-free travel to the continent - even after a no-deal Brexit.

Britons travelling to the bloc's borderless Schengen area - made up of 26 European countries - after 29 March should be granted visa-free travel for a short stay, the European Council proposed.

This is defined as 90 days in any 180 days.

A document detailing the proposal states: "Considering the geographical proximity, the link between economies, the level of trade and the extent of short-term movements of persons between the UK and the Union for business, leisure or other purposes, visa-free travel should facilitate tourism and economic activity, thereby bringing benefits to the Union."

The decision will now be passed to the European Parliament, who last month supported visa-free travel even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, to pass into legislation.

https://news.sky.com/story/eu-agree...k-citizens-even-after-no-deal-brexit-11624541

EU agrees visa free travel even after no deal. So there you go.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> might sound stupid but what is the SM/CU? Is it the South Manchester Credit Union


 No, @AlexPed2393: It stands for ''So Much Crap Uttered''. I thought you would know that. Afraid I can only give you a B- for your post.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Single market & customs union. The governments own impact assessments on the different brexit scenarios.


Thanks for clearing it up  a google search just brought up south manchester. Going back to my points though, are the businesses really willing to take on the extra costs & technicalities that come long with relocation to another country entirely? I think a lot more companies are saying they will move than those who actually have the capabilities to do so effectively.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> No, @AlexPed2393: It stands for ''So Much Crap Uttered''. I thought you would know that. Afraid I can only give you a B- for your post.


About my average grade at University


----------



## stockwellcat.

Interesting news starting to filter through. Germany is urging the EU negotiators to drop the Irish backstop as UK ministers meet to discuss alternatives.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Thanks for clearing it up  a google search just brought up south manchester. Going back to my points though, are the businesses really willing to take on the extra costs & technicalities that come long with relocation to another country entirely? I think a lot more companies are saying they will move than those who actually have the capabilities to do so effectively.


No worries  That was the governments own impact assessment Alex - the ones they tried to hide.

Many business depend on free movement & 'just in time' manufacturers & fresh goods exporters rely on no customs delays. Many businesses will be forced to relocate. Of course that wont be possible for farmers and so on, like manufacturing, brexit will destroy the farming industry here.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting news starting to filter through. Germany is urging the EU negotiators to drop the Irish backstop as UK ministers meet to discuss alternatives.


I find that very hard to believe. Can you reference your sources please?


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 391283
> 
> 
> On Friday, EU ambassadors agreed to allow UK citizens visa-free travel to the continent - even after a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> Britons travelling to the bloc's borderless Schengen area - made up of 26 European countries - after 29 March should be granted visa-free travel for a short stay, the European Council proposed.
> 
> This is defined as 90 days in any 180 days.
> 
> A document detailing the proposal states: "Considering the geographical proximity, the link between economies, the level of trade and the extent of short-term movements of persons between the UK and the Union for business, leisure or other purposes, visa-free travel should facilitate tourism and economic activity, thereby bringing benefits to the Union."
> 
> The decision will now be passed to the European Parliament, who last month supported visa-free travel even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, to pass into legislation.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/eu-agree...k-citizens-even-after-no-deal-brexit-11624541
> 
> EU agrees visa free travel even after no deal. So there you go.


Another report about it from City AM.

http://www.cityam.com/272576/britons-get-visa-free-travel-european-union-even-case-no?
utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190201_CM

*EU approves visa-free travel for Britons in no-deal Brexit but sparks diplomatic scuffle over Gibraltar*

Ha ha @KittenKong has one thing less to moan about!


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> I* find that very hard to believe*. Can you reference your sources please?


I searched the "net" and I can't find anything about it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I find that very hard to believe. Can you reference your sources please?


https://www.fxstreet.com/amp/news/b...s-association-ifo-economists-say-201901311135

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...EU-scrap-Irish-backstop-preserve-ties-UK.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Happy Paws said:


> I searched the "net" and I can't find anything about it.


You are not searching hard enough. There are plenty of news links to this


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I'm imagining all the lost jobs.
> 
> ,,,


I shouldn't worry too much about that. There will be loads to go round as apparently no-one wants to live here any more.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I don't understand why no one wants to live here? Even in the event of no deal UK Citizens can still travel to the EU visa free. The EU said so themselves just today.


----------



## MilleD

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't understand why no one wants to live here? Even in the event of no deal UK Citizens can still travel to the EU free of charge. The EU said so themselves just today.


Apparently the country is hated, we are all racists and bigots and the place is going down the swanny….


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I shouldn't worry too much about that. There will be loads to go round as apparently no-one wants to live here any more.


 I don't understand why people think a country that tortures bulls as a national sport is a great place to live . They even take their children to watch .

Lets hear it for the bull !


----------



## Elles

These fears about fresh fruit/veg. A lot of imported fruit/veg is from outside the Eu and is flown in. Before the brexit vote the media was complaining about the air miles and saying that due to climate change our farmers need to grow more for for the British market and we need to eat more British produce. We are importing food that we used to grow ourselves.

The fruit where necessary goes to ripening factories in the U.K. and is distributed across the U.K. from there. One group have recently invested £3bn expanding their ripening facilities in the U.K.


----------



## Arnie83

From the Grauniad, and a gentleman in Crewe a couple of days ago ...

Geoffrey Chesters was engrossed in a book about money-making schemes, bought for £1 at Nantwich market. He'd reached a chapter entitled "How to become even richer when everyone else goes to the wall", and was learning how to survive financial apocalypse.

"Look at this," he said, pointing to a paragraph about negotiating a banking collapse. "This is what's coming." He'd been stockpiling tins for months. A no-deal Brexit was going to make everyone poorer, he said. But it was worth it, if it meant the UK got control over immigration. That's why he voted to leave the European Union: "We've got too many of them coming over here and I want it to stop."

*The 73-year-old former builder and engineer said he had been lied to by the leave campaign. "They didn't tell us the true facts. They kept us in the dark like mushrooms and fed us bullshit," he said. "We voted because of immigration and we didn't realise how poor we would be. It will be terrible but I still want it, because of immigration." *​
He is just one man, of course, but it is sad to read.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> These fears about fresh fruit/veg. A lot of imported fruit/veg is from outside the Eu and is flown in. Before the brexit vote the media was complaining about the air miles and saying that due to climate change our farmers need to grow more for for the British market and we need to eat more British produce. We are importing food that we used to grow ourselves.
> 
> The fruit where necessary goes to ripening factories in the U.K. and is distributed across the U.K. from there. One group have recently invested £3bn expanding their ripening facilities in the U.K.


 We have South American produce here. 
I would say buy British but apparently anything British is racist so I'm only going to buy produce from abroad


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting news starting to filter through. Germany is urging the EU negotiators to drop the Irish backstop as UK ministers meet to discuss alternatives.


From the link you supplied:

It's not 'Germany', it's a think tank in Germany.

And they're proposing that the backstop is replaced by a new Customs Union (pretty much Corbyn's idea) which would be rejected by both the UK and the EU. A complete non-starter.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> We have South American produce here.
> I would say buy British but apparently anything British is racist so I'm only going to buy produce from abroad


Lol! Oy, I was trying to point out the hypocrisy and exaggerating, not persuade us all to buy British... or not. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

There’s the odd person who wants to stay in the Eu because they think we won’t be able to leave Britain for a holiday and visit Europe if we leave. Some have never been on holiday outside the U.K. They’re wrong too. As are the people who are frightened we’ll all starve and go to war.


----------



## JANICE199

*Now before anyone feels the need to tell me i don't have the right to have my say, i will confess all of this brexit has and still does confuse the hell out of me me. So having said that, here is what i think, and dare i say hope for.*
*I believe that we can leave the EU and stand on our own 2 feet. Having said that, i also believe we NEED a government that thinks the same way, and are prepared to see the job through. We have done it before and i believe we can do it again.*
*I know some will shout, you are seeing the past through rose tinted glasses. Well my answer to that is, rubbish. We need a plan, and the plan needs someone who will put his country first, and see the job through. Now call me naive but that's how i feel. ps, i haven't got a tin hat so be gentle.*


----------



## MilleD

JANICE199 said:


> *Now before anyone feels the need to tell me i don't have the right to have my say, i will confess all of this brexit has and still does confuse the hell out of me me. So having said that, here is what i think, and dare i say hope for.*
> *I believe that we can leave the EU and stand on our own 2 feet. Having said that, i also believe we NEED a government that thinks the same way, and are prepared to see the job through. We have done it before and i believe we can do it again.*
> *I know some will shout, you are seeing the past through rose tinted glasses. Well my answer to that is, rubbish. We need a plan, and the plan needs someone who will put his country first, and see the job through. Now call me naive but that's how i feel. ps, i haven't got a tin hat so be gentle.*


Didn't you start all this???!!!

I don't mean Brexit - that would be unfair...


----------



## JANICE199

MilleD said:


> Didn't you start all this???!!!
> 
> I don't mean Brexit - that would be unfair...


*Only the thread. HONEST. *


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *Now before anyone feels the need to tell me i don't have the right to have my say, i will confess all of this brexit has and still does confuse the hell out of me me. So having said that, here is what i think, and dare i say hope for.*
> *I believe that we can leave the EU and stand on our own 2 feet. Having said that, i also believe we NEED a government that thinks the same way, and are prepared to see the job through. We have done it before and i believe we can do it again.*
> *I know some will shout, you are seeing the past through rose tinted glasses. Well my answer to that is, rubbish. We need a plan, and the plan needs someone who will put his country first, and see the job through. Now call me naive but that's how i feel. ps, i haven't got a tin hat so be gentle.*


I don't think there's any question at all that we can leave and stand on our own two feet. Anyone suggesting otherwise is daft.

I think the discussion comes with the phrase "put the country first". Different people will define what that means in different ways. For the gentleman in Crewe that I quoted above it appears to mean stopping immigration, for the likes of Mark Francois it means not taking orders from Germany, for many of those who want(ed) to stay in the EU it means doing what is best for our economy, and for me it means being an integral part of the sort of supranational organisation that I think will be better for mankind.


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think there's any question at all that we can leave and stand on our own two feet. Anyone suggesting otherwise is daft.
> 
> I think the discussion comes with the phrase "put the country first". Different people will define what that means in different ways. For the gentleman in Crewe that I quoted above it appears to mean stopping immigration, for the likes of Mark Francois it means not taking orders from Germany, for many of those who want(ed) to stay in the EU it means doing what is best for our economy, and for me it means being an integral part of the sort of supranational organisation that I think will be better for mankind.


*I see what you are saying and i agree to a point. My opinion is, we should put our country first, But immigration isn't an issue for me.*


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *I see what you are saying and i agree to a point. My opinion is, we should put our country first, But immigration isn't an issue for me.*


So what do you mean by "putting our country first" ?


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Lets be honest though, they won't all leave will they. Relocation isn't cheap, hiring a whole new workforce isn't cheap and they will have a multitude of insurance policies and other documents that ties them in to that location for their functioning.


It's cheaper in the long run as they'll continue to have access to the Sm and CU.

Just see Barlay's shifting 190 Billion. Look at Dyson too, the very man who told us all to vote for it, he's packing up though, because he knows it's best for his business.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> It's cheaper in the long run as they'll continue to have access to the Sm and CU.
> 
> Just see Barlay's shifting 190 Billion. Look at Dyson too, the very man who told us all to vote for it, he's packing up though, because he knows it's best for his business.


Barclays was the moving of money, NOT the moving of jobs. I'm sure a lot more money is being moved back and forth in the stock market between US, UK, EU, Asia etc etc to make the most out of currencies etc as they fluctuate. Plus Barclays are expanding into the Europaen market and growing their already existing office in Dublin will surely help that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

emmaviolet said:


> It's cheaper in the long run as they'll continue to have access to the Sm and CU.
> 
> Just see Barlay's shifting 190 Billion. Look at Dyson too, the very man who told us all to vote for it, he's packing up though, because he knows it's best for his business.


So how would it be cheaper? The UK would still have to pay the EU for access to the SM/CU. That money could be used in the UK or on striking it's own trade deals with other countries.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *N*
> *I believe that we can leave the EU and stand on our own 2 feet. Having said that, i also believe we NEED a government that thinks the same way, and are prepared to see the job through. We have done it before and i believe we can do it again.*
> *I know some will shout, you are seeing the past through rose tinted glasses. Well my answer to that is, rubbish. We need a plan, and the plan needs someone who will put his country first, and see the job through. Now call me naive but that's how i feel. ps, i haven't got a tin hat so be gentle.*


While I respect your right to your opinion I must admit I was rather surprised by your comments.

"Stand on your own two feet", the grand old Tory saying to the unemployed to get off their backsides after putting 3 million out of work...

Just yesterday I received the usual pro Leave pap from an ex Remainer Facebook friend with the usual, " We survived the Ice Age, the Great Plague and two world wars, so we'll survive Brexit.

The point is, not many of us who lived through these tough times are alive today.

Secondly, did anyone vote for the Great Plague and two World Wars?!

Pathetic seeing most voted for sunny uplands and unicorns, not self inflicted deliberate self harm in the name of Nationalism and Steven Yaxley-Lennon.

Had Brexit been a person it would've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

But people who insist what they voted for will be finding out soon enough what they had actually voted for.

Despite winning the match, sorry war, sorry referendum they still come over as being very angry people filled with hatred.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Apparently the country is hated, we are all racists and bigots and the place is going down the swanny….


Sadly, I think you are right. At least what many people outside the UK think of its people.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Lloyds blamed the re structuring of it's banking business which was preplanned and happened after the referendum on Brexit. The restructuring of Lloyds bank involved job losses and branch closures but this was absolutely nothing to do with Brexit or the referendum yet they tried to blame it on such.

The Barclays money move was preplanned to (dare I say it Oh I just did).


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> they still come over as being very angry people filled with hatred.


You seem very calm and not angry at all... :Muted


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Sadly, I think you are right. At least what people outside the UK think of its people.


See you still get visa free access to other European countries. The EU announced this today. Your FOM is not being taken away from you as it applies to businesses as well.

UK citizens will still be able to travel to other European countries visa free for 90 days (3 months) in any 180 day period for leisure or business even if the UK leaves the EU with no deal. This roughly mimics the rules at the moment being an EU member.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Barclays was the moving of money, NOT the moving of jobs. I'm sure a lot more money is being moved back and forth in the stock market between US, UK, EU, Asia etc etc to make the most out of currencies etc as they fluctuate. Plus Barclays are expanding into the Europaen market and growing their already existing office in Dublin will surely help that.


Exactly! Unfortunately some people don't seem to read the threads and links properly. I posted all the correct details about the £190 million Barclays will be moving to Dublin the other day!

sighs.....


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Sadly, I think you are right. At least what many people outside the UK think of its people.


How do you know that?


----------



## Arnie83

Barclays are, though, moving investment banking jobs to Frankfurt and setting up Dublin as their post-Brexit hub, so some jobs will go and I would guess that a steady trickle would follow.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Barclays are, though, moving investment banking jobs to Frankfurt and setting up Dublin as their post-Brexit hub, so some jobs will go and I would guess that a steady trickle would follow.


With Barclays being a UK based company, they will never move completely abroad, just not going to happen. I agree that a few more jobs will be generated abroad but not on the scale some other people seem to be thinking


----------



## AlexPed2393

Speaking of Barclays

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-47088844


----------



## stockwellcat.

AlexPed2393 said:


> Speaking of Barclays
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-47088844


----------



## AlexPed2393

stockwellcat. said:


>


Sounds like the councils are getting a bit greedy on this one, taking out loans they can't really afford and once something bad comes out about Barclays, who they are lending from, they jump on it like the desperate bunch of hoo has they are.

Then again it should be good to see the councils recoup some public funds. Most likely the interest rates will be lowered, back payments made in the form of lowering future bills, and everyone will be on their jolly way.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> With Barclays being a UK based company, they will never move completely abroad, just not going to happen. I agree that a few more jobs will be generated abroad but not on the scale some other people seem to be thinking


I've never thought that Brexit would cause a rush of jobs to move abroad, any more than the UK economy will suddenly collapse in a heap.

Most of the effects will be gradual. Trade with the EU will be easier for companies with a base there - financial services demand it - while production and JIT processes will be facilitated by not having external borders as part of manufacturing. The UK simply becomes a less attractive place to do business, to invest, and to expand existing capability.

We won't crash and burn, but we will not do as well as we would have done had we remained an EU member.

But you can't compare reality with an alternative projection, so for many it will look as though leaving has made no difference, which will no doubt be pointed out with a "We Told You So", while every new bit of business that does arise, as many will, will be hailed as 'proof' that we were right to leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Not new news, but today is the day ...

*EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone*

Almost all tariffs on trade between the European Union and the world's third-biggest economy have been removed. European companies could save around a billion euros in duties each year.

A free trade agreement between Japan and the EU entered into force on February 1, covering 635 million people and almost one-third of the world's economy.

Dubbed the world's largest free trade agreement, the EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement removes duties on almost all agricultural and industrial products and opens up the service sector and procurement. It also moves to eliminate non-tariff barriers to trade.​
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-and-japan-create-worlds-biggest-free-trade-zone/a-47319521

What was that about the "protectionist EU"?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I've never thought that Brexit would cause a rush of jobs to move abroad, any more than the UK economy will suddenly collapse in a heap.
> 
> Most of the effects will be gradual. Trade with the EU will be easier for companies with a base there - financial services demand it - while production and JIT processes will be facilitated by not having external borders as part of manufacturing. The UK simply becomes a less attractive place to do business, to invest, and to expand existing capability.
> 
> We won't crash and burn, but we will not do as well as we would have done had we remained an EU member.
> 
> But you can't compare reality with an alternative projection, so for many it will look as though leaving has made no difference, which will no doubt be pointed out with a "We Told You So", while every new bit of business that does arise, as many will, will be hailed as 'proof' that we were right to leave.


I'm hoping the gradual decline doesn't happen but if things go south this is the most likely scenario


----------



## Elles

So what did Japan have to do for it?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Lol! Oy, I was trying to point out the hypocrisy and exaggerating, not persuade us all to buy British... or not. :Hilarious


:Hilarious Yeah I know. Sorry , I couldn't resist it


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So what did Japan have to do for it?


Negotiate?


----------



## Elles




----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> So what did Japan have to do for it?


Japan got most of there wish list granted with the EU trade deal. 

Let's not forget the quiet whispers in Japan's ear about whale hunting (which Japan is still doing) from the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Japan got most of there wish list granted with the EU trade deal.
> 
> Let's not forget the quiet whispers in Japan's ear about whale hunting (which Japan is still doing) from the EU.


Obviously you can support that ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Stop being awkward cheeky.
You know they are still whale hunting.
We have already had the discussion about Japan in this thread and there trade deal with the EU and links provided.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Stop being awkward cheeky.
> You know they are still whale hunting.
> We have already had the discussion about Japan in this thread and there trade deal with the EU and links provided.


EU are now to blame for Japan whale hunting???
Well done you!!!
Pitchfork on the go...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> EU are now to blame for Japan whale hunting???
> Well done you!!!
> Pitchfork on the go...


I didn't say that so you keep twisting your pitch fork and everything I say.

Question are you Grigrio?


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> Japan got most of there wish list granted with the EU trade deal.
> 
> Let's not forget the quiet whispers in Japan's ear about whale hunting (which Japan is still doing) from the EU.


http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

*EU-Japan trade agreement enters into force*

*Whaling The EU is committed to conserving whales, dolphins and other cetaceans. Whaling and trade in whale meat are banned in the EU so the issue does not fall under EU trade policy. EU trade agreements can't refer to activities that are prohibited in the EU and the EU does not negotiate trade concessions for these products. The EU addresses whaling by third countries - including Japan - both internationally and bilaterally. The EU works closely with likeminded partners in the International Whaling Commission, the most effective body for addressing whaling, which has imposed a moratorium on whaling.*

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east...thdrawal-whaling-treaty-and-resume-commercial


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm
> 
> *EU-Japan trade agreement enters into force*
> 
> *Whaling The EU is committed to conserving whales, dolphins and other cetaceans. Whaling and trade in whale meat are banned in the EU so the issue does not fall under EU trade policy. EU trade agreements can't refer to activities that are prohibited in the EU and the EU does not negotiate trade concessions for these products. The EU addresses whaling by third countries - including Japan - both internationally and bilaterally. The EU works closely with likeminded partners in the International Whaling Commission, the most effective body for addressing whaling, which has imposed a moratorium on whaling.*
> 
> https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east...thdrawal-whaling-treaty-and-resume-commercial


But in the EU and Japan trade deal didn't it say along the lines of the EU will only keep having words with Japan about whaling as they cannot stop them from doing it? I know the EU will not buy or sell whale meat that wasn't my point and they cannot stop Japan from whaling.

Japanese whaling is due to start again in July 2019. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-46682976


----------



## stockwellcat.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in...ic-partnership-agreement/agreement-explained/


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I didn't say that so you keep twisting your pitch fork and everything I say.
> 
> Question are you Grigrio?


I am them , one of them, one of many...
This man was hounded here the same as poor whales are..
His fault - he speaks English as a second language, and his opinions differ from yours?
Yet he made valid points regardless of his imperfections.
Sadly no debate but ridicule.
Contempt.
Pitchfork.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Japan EU trade deal was discussed between pages 330 to 333 or 335 I think it was.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Look cheeky give over you have stormed on here tonight and straight away lay into me. Popping you on ignore to.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Look cheeky give over you have stormed on here tonight and straight away lay into me. Popping you on ignore to.


Hurts...
Truth hurts...
Especially home truths do... 
At least not storming off..

Oh well, happy Friday everyone, it is the wine time...


----------



## Magyarmum

stockwellcat. said:


> But in the EU and Japan trade deal didn't it say along the lines of the EU will only keep having words with Japan about whaling as they cannot stop them from doing it? I know the EU will not buy or sell whale meat that wasn't my point and they cannot stop Japan from whaling.
> 
> Japanese whaling is due to start again in July 2019. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-46682976


Is this what you're thinking of? Taken from the draft agreement.

*How will the EU tackle the issue of Japanese whaling?*
The EU and its Member States are committed to the conservation and protection of whales, and have consistently expressed strong reservations about whaling for scientific purposes.

The EU is an active participant in the International Whaling Commission - the most effective framework to address Japanese whaling at international level - where it works closely with like-minded partners.

Whales receive special protection under the EU law and the EU strictly enforces the ban on trade in whale products under the Convention on Trade in Endangered Species, also known as CITES. The EU-Japan trade agreement will not change our position.

The EU already has regular talks with Japan on environment-related issues, including whaling.

The trade agreement, includes a chapter on sustainable development with Japan. The chapter will provide an additional platform to foster dialogue and joint work between the EU and Japan on environmental issues of relevance in a trade context.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hurts...
> Truth hurts...
> Especially home truths do...
> At least not storming off..
> 
> Oh well, happy Friday everyone, it is the wine time...


If you have something to say, say it to me via PM. I can assure you are acheiving nothing as I have not been racist nor have I been xenophobic what so ever. I am not the only person to have voiced what I said except I was the one that said something publicly. I also apologised to this person if I am wrong. But normally certain remainers on here tend to sound people out and then they get banned (the people they have sounded out I mean).

Now let's get back to the thread to respect @JANICE199's wishes.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> EU are now to blame for Japan whale hunting???
> Well done you!!!
> Pitchfork on the go...


What on earth are you talking about??????????????????

I don't recall anyone, least of all SWC blaming the EU for whale hunting!

What a strange idea!

Shakes head in disbelief ..............................


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> The EU already has regular talks with Japan on environment-related issues, including whaling.


Yes they only have talks on whaling not exactly encouraging them to stop whaling. Japan is to start whaling again in July 2019 (Link to the news article provided previously).

I understand the EU won't buy whale products at all.


----------



## Magyarmum

BREXIT FURY: EU officials brand Gibraltar a 'UK colony'

Isn't it nice to see theEU not knowing what they're talking about?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> BREXIT FURY: EU officials brand Gibraltar a 'UK colony'
> 
> Isn't it nice to see theEU not knowing what they're talking about?


May isn't happy about the EU branding Gibraltar as a colony at all.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> What on earth are you talking about??????????????????
> 
> I don't recall anyone, least of all SWC blaming the EU for whale hunting!
> 
> What a strange idea!
> 
> Shakes head in disbelief ..............................


Well.., read his posts... about the EU quiet whispers ...
Strange indeed...
But I have a bottle of real nice red...

Here it is to you! 
But Egri Bikaver is a good one too...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Well.., read his posts... about the EU quiet whispers ...
> Strange indeed...
> But I have a bottle of real nice red...
> 
> Here it is to you!
> But Egri Bikaver is a good one too...


I did not say what you are implying and enjoy the rest of your wine as it explains you hositility to me.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I did not say what you are implying and enjoy the rest of your wine as it explains you hositility to me.


I thought I am on ignore , left to finish my glass peacefully?
Your change of mind could replace a few of those wind mills and provide green energy for a small hamlet...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> BREXIT FURY: EU officials brand Gibraltar a 'UK colony'
> 
> Isn't it nice to see theEU not knowing what they're talking about?


Yes, EU is happy to support Spain, though before they were able to stop them.
Brexit is hitting us hard already.
Banks and companies going away.
Gaming, finance... not easy time.
I might be unemployed soon too.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Well.., read his posts... about the EU quiet whispers ...
> Strange indeed...
> But I have a bottle of real nice red...
> 
> Here it is to you!
> But Egri Bikaver is a good one too...


You misunderstood what he meant.

Enjoy your wine!

I haven't touched alcohol for the past two years.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> You misunderstood what he meant.
> 
> Enjoy your wine!
> 
> I haven't touched alcohol for the past two years.


Living in Hungary... that is some will power!!!

Yes, I will, weather dreadful here, storms, schools cancelled due to heavy rain and wind... poor dog had hardly a walk...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Magyarmum said:


> You misunderstood what he meant.
> 
> Enjoy your wine!
> 
> I haven't touched alcohol for the past two years.


I think I will avoid cheeky tonight and wait until she is sober.


----------



## emmaviolet

It seems people overplay the 'putting you on ignore' hand a little too much, especially in one day, all the while not putting someone in ignore.

Go figure.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I thought I am on ignore , left to finish my glass peacefully?
> Your change of mind could replace a few of those wind mills and provide green energy for a small hamlet...


To be or not to be, that is the question.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I think I will avoid cheeky tonight and wait until she is sober.


Cannot be tonight... few passer bys got so lucky...:Cigar :Hungry

Never smuggle in such weather...


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 391383
> 
> Cannot be tonight... few passer bys got so lucky...:Cigar :Hungry
> 
> Never smuggle in such weather...


When I lived in Calahonda I had a drug smuggler and his wife live next door but one to me. Whenever I met her she always insisted her husband wasn't a bad person because he only smuggled cannabis and not the hard stuff like heroin or cocaine.

The last I heard of him, he was languishing in a Spanish prison!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> To be or not to be, that is the question.


That is _hessliebe _on his side... he cannot stay away me thinks...


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I am them , one of them, one of many...
> This man was hounded here the same as poor whales are..
> His fault - he speaks English as a second language, and his opinions differ from yours?
> Yet he made valid points regardless of his imperfections.
> Sadly no debate but ridicule.
> Contempt.
> Pitchfork.


 are u and kk having a competition to see who can exaggerate the most?


----------



## JANICE199

Arnie83 said:


> So what do you mean by "putting our country first" ?


*All i meant was, we should stop interfering with other countries problems until we have sorted out our own.*


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> While I respect your right to your opinion I must admit I was rather surprised by your comments.
> 
> "Stand on your own two feet", the grand old Tory saying to the unemployed to get off their backsides after putting 3 million out of work...
> 
> Just yesterday I received the usual pro Leave pap from an ex Remainer Facebook friend with the usual, " We survived the Ice Age, the Great Plague and two world wars, so we'll survive Brexit.
> 
> The point is, not many of us who lived through these tough times are alive today.
> 
> Secondly, did anyone vote for the Great Plague and two World Wars?!
> 
> Pathetic seeing most voted for sunny uplands and unicorns, not self inflicted deliberate self harm in the name of Nationalism and Steven Yaxley-Lennon.
> 
> Had Brexit been a person it would've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
> 
> But people who insist what they voted for will be finding out soon enough what they had actually voted for.
> 
> Despite winning the match, sorry war, sorry referendum they still come over as being very angry people filled with hatred.


*I haven't got a clue what you thought my post meant, i think you have misunderstood me.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have learnt one thing on this thread oh and the other Brexit threads. If you voted leave or support the UK leaving the EU some remainers twist what you say as they are so obsessed with their cause and only like reading or hearing what they want to hear. Fact is the UK is leaving the EU and is beyond the point of no return as in remaining in the EU. Good news for some remainers is you can still travel to other European countries visa free for 90 days in any 180 days (EU have confirmed this today) so you don't totally lose your Freedom of Movement.

Perhaps it would be sensible at this point for me to step back and leave you to worrying. My cat deserves more attention from me and was begging me for attention tonight and is now fast asleep on my lap. There are more important things in life to pay attention to than Brexit.

Have said what I have to say.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> are u and kk having a competition to see who can exaggerate the most?


Sadly... we trail well behind the leaders...
If you think we are in front it is because they overtook us by a few laps...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> I have learnt one thing on this thread oh and the other Brexit threads. If you voted leave or support the UK leaving the EU some remainers twist what you say as they are so obsessed with their cause and only like reading or hearing what they want to hear.
> 
> Perhaps it would be sensible at this point for me to step back and leave you to worrying. My cat deserves more attention from me and was begging me for attention tonight and is now fast asleep on my lap. There are more important things in life to pay attention to than Brexit.
> 
> Have said what I have to say.


Hear, hear!!! :Facepalm


----------



## Happy Paws2

stockwellcat. said:


> I have learnt one thing on this thread oh and the other Brexit threads. If you voted leave or support the UK leaving the EU some remainers twist what you say as they are so obsessed with their cause and only like reading or hearing what they want to hear. Fact is the UK is leaving the EU and is beyond the point of no return as in remaining in the EU. Good news for some remainers is you can still travel to other European countries visa free for 90 days in any 180 days (EU have confirmed this today) so you don't totally lose your Freedom of Movement.
> 
> Perhaps it would be sensible at this point for me to step back and leave you to worrying. My cat deserves more attention from me and was begging me for attention tonight and is now fast asleep on my lap. There are more important things in life to pay attention to than Brexit.
> 
> Have said what I have to say.


I voted to remain, but to be honest I couldn't give a stuff anymore, sink or swim our bed has been made we have to live with it, it's just a shame May is making such a mess of it.


----------



## Jesthar

OK, OK - I know we all hate memes, but this one made me laugh


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting news starting to filter through. Germany is urging the EU negotiators to drop the Irish backstop as UK ministers meet to discuss alternatives.


As you links show, it isn't Germany at all, its a German think tank - who (like Dominic Raab) have no understanding of the Good Friday Agreement. Or (like Dominic Raab again) don't care.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090918652101226496


Happy Paws said:


> I searched the "net" and I can't find anything about it.


Because there isn't anything It was just a think tank based in Germany lol


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I shouldn't worry too much about that. There will be loads to go round as apparently no-one wants to live here any more.


But the reality is there won't Mille. And ending our freedom of movement has made it harder for people to move away.



kimthecat said:


> I don't understand why people think a country that tortures bulls as a national sport is a great place to live . They even take their children to watch .
> 
> Lets hear it for the bull !
> 
> View attachment 391294


Some people think that a country which STILL tortures foxes is a great place to live. A country which is engaged in the brutal mass extermination of a native species. More than 30,000 badgers killed over autumn in largest cull ever https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/badger-cull-uk-largest-figures-autumn-defra-bovine-tb-wildlife-environment-a8688886.html …

5th richest country on the planet - doesn't all this make you proud of our great nation? Rule Britannia.

Rough sleepers more than doubled since 2010 
Child homelessness up 70% to 130,000 
14.3m people now live in poverty 
4.5m kids now live in poverty 
597 homeless deaths a year 
Food bank packages up from 40,898 in 2009/10 to 1,332,952 a year.

.................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Stop being awkward cheeky.
> You know they are still whale hunting.
> We have already had the discussion about Japan in this thread and there trade deal with the EU and links provided.


A few days ago you & @Magyarmun 'liked' this post of Rona's. There doesn't appear to be any consistency to your argument



rona said:


> We've just done a multi million pound deal with Japan


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't understand why no one wants to live here? Even in the event of no deal UK Citizens can still travel to the EU visa free. The EU said so themselves just today.


If we leave on no deal then not only will there be shortages of medicines but it will mean the end of our NHS. The tories intend to roll back environmental protection, workers rights, health & safety laws. Things which protect us & our environment. May is even considering axing our Human Rights! Millions will lose their jobs. There will be food shortages. People WILL die. Is that really what you voted for? You called all this project fear once Brexit was always a right wing power grab & if you're not afraid of the hard right tories you really don't understand their toxic ideology.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I am them , one of them, one of many...
> This man was hounded here the same as poor whales are..
> His fault - he speaks English as a second language, and his opinions differ from yours?
> Yet he made valid points regardless of his imperfections.
> Sadly no debate but ridicule.
> Contempt.
> Pitchfork.


Well said Cheeky xx


----------



## noushka05

*Jon Snow*‏Verified account @jonsnowC4

Not to report that the Uk is in the midst of the most dangerous political/economic waters since WW2 would be irresponsible. 
It behoves all of us to interogate every element of what the Government is attempting to do

..................................................
*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston

It is eight weeks till we leave the EU. And we don't know anything about what kind of Brexit it will be. 
I cannot really believe I wrote this and I am not dreaming.


----------



## noushka05

*James Felton*‏

2016: Sunlit uplands

2019: Small chance you'll be swimming in actual pig shit


----------



## noushka05

Yikes! 

*Kent 'facing gridlocked and rubbish-strewn streets under no-deal Brexit'*

Hard-hitting report from council also raises concerns about *unburied bodies* and effect on school

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-could-cause-chaos-across-kent-warns-council

It appears Kent is going to be hit exceptionally hard.

*NHS cancels blood donor sessions in Kent over Brexit fears* https://bit.ly/2TkWpNr


----------



## Bizzybizzy

I really think we need to have a check on what the British people want, now that we know more about the implications. Along the lines of the old carpentry motto: Measure Twice, Cut Once. The idea being a piece of wood is expensive so double check beforehand. Brexit has massive implications for generations ahead. Let’s double check with a referendum on the options now we are more clear about what they are.


----------



## noushka05

Bizzybizzy said:


> I really think we need to have a check on what the British people want, now that we know more about the implications. Along the lines of the old carpentry motto: Measure Twice, Cut Once. The idea being a piece of wood is expensive so double check beforehand. Brexit has massive implications for generations ahead. Let's double check with a referendum on the options now we are more clear about what they are.


I couldn't agree more. Welcome to the forum


----------



## Bizzybizzy

We need to email our MPs urgently to let them know we support this option. It’s too important to leave the outcome to chance. Very easy to do if you google ‘write to my MP’


----------



## samuelsmiles3

noushka05 said:


> Yikes!
> 
> *Kent 'facing gridlocked and rubbish-strewn streets under no-deal Brexit'*
> 
> Hard-hitting report from council also raises concerns about *unburied bodies* and effect on school
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-could-cause-chaos-across-kent-warns-council
> 
> It appears Kent is going to be hit exceptionally hard.
> 
> *NHS cancels blood donor sessions in Kent over Brexit fears* https://bit.ly/2TkWpNr



Laura Kuenssberg

✔@bbclaurak

On blood donation story - source tells BBC decision wasn't cleared through Dept of Health nationally, and will be reversed straight away


387
5:36 PM - Jan 29, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy

315 people are talking about this


----------



## KittenKong

2024 Chapter 9 ©2019 by Glen Noble.

The Brexit feel good factor is rapidly diminishing. People miss those happy cheerful songs they used to hear at Christmas time, but made at a time Britain was a member of the European Union between 1973-2016, they are now prohibited from airplay and indeed ownership, be it record, tape, CD or download.

The authorities also forbade AM radio, as that would allow reception of European stations in the UK. A division of the BBC have detector vans to ensure this is enforced.

The BBC Radio Licence fee, originally abolished in 1970, was re-introduced. This was seen as another example of taking back control along with blue Passports, Purchase Tax, pre-decimal currency and imperial weights and measures.

The latter was forced to co-exist with the US system following President Scrump's rescue package which continues to result in a lot of confusion, especially now the metric equivalent is prohibited on labelling.

Musically, there was also the very popular Shabba, a Norwegian quartet much loved the world over. The UK was no exception, but became the only place in the world where you would not hear their music again, "For good", according to the Prime Minister Thelma Jay.

The Americans even made a musical featuring their songs. Fans of the group in the UK asked for an exception to be made on the no EU music rule as the film was American, but was rejected by Thelma Jay.

Many thought this hypocritical, seeing she danced to one of their songs " Dancing Woman", back in 2018 at her party conference.

At the time it created splits in the party with her dancing to a European record. Those on the right of the party such as Jehrico Cartner-Millen suggested Vera Lynn to be more appropriate.

Meanwhile, the public grew very tired of frequent plays of, "Rule Britannia", "Land of Hope and Glory" and Vera Lynne to remind them how great their country is. Do they really need that much reminding?

People of Great Britain really were beginning to wonder...

TO BE CONTINUED...


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> 2024 Chapter 9 ©2019 by Glen Noble.
> 
> The Brexit feel good factor is rapidly diminishing. People miss those happy cheerful songs they used to hear at Christmas time, but made at a time Britain was a member of the European Union between 1973-2016, they are now prohibited from airplay and indeed ownership, be it record, tape, CD or download.
> 
> The authorities also forbade AM radio, as that would allow reception of European stations in the UK. A division of the BBC have detector vans to ensure this is enforced.
> 
> The BBC Radio Licence fee, originally abolished in 1970, was re-introduced. This was seen as another example of taking back control along with blue Passports, Purchase Tax, pre-decimal currency and imperial weights and measures.
> 
> The latter was forced to co-exist with the US system following President Scrump's rescue package which continues to result in a lot of confusion, especially now the metric equivalent is prohibited on labelling.
> 
> Musically, there was also the very popular Shabba, a Norwegian quartet much loved the world over. The UK was no exception, but became the only place in the world where you would not hear their music again, "For good", according to the Prime Minister Thelma Jay.
> 
> The Americans even made a musical featuring their songs. Fans of the group in the UK asked for an exception to be made on the no EU music rule as the film was American, but was rejected by Thelma Jay.
> 
> Many thought this hypocritical, seeing she danced to one of their songs " Dancing Woman", back in 2018 at her party conference.
> 
> At the time it created splits in the party with her dancing to a European record. Those on the right of the party such as Jehrico Cartner-Millen suggested Vera Lynn to be more appropriate.
> 
> Meanwhile, the public grew very tired of frequent plays of, "Rule Britannia", "Land of Hope and Glory" and Vera Lynne to remind them how great their country is. Do they really need that much reminding?
> 
> People of Great Britain really were beginning to wonder...
> 
> TO BE CONTINUED...


Even ostensibly dressed up as 'humour' I do wonder if this is doing the anti-Brexit cause a lot of good ...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Even ostensibly dressed up as 'humour' I do wonder if this is doing the anti-Brexit cause a lot of good ...


Sorry it's not to your taste Arnie. It is intended to be a bit of humour.


----------



## Eeyore

This is what most of us think of Brexit in an EU country, a summary of an editorial: "Brexit meets criteria for madness". Einstein once said that it is madness to do the same thing over and over again and each times expects a different outcome. For a logical mind following the twists and turns of the British government has brought lots of suspicions of their real purpose. Are they acting like fools deliberately, playing for time or are they just behaving like a mad person behaves according to Einstein? 

The UK is back to were it started two years ago. UK doesn´t want more time to sort out what it wants, but doesn´t want the the deal it wanted, doesn´t want to leave without deal and doesn´t want to remain. It doesn´t want a new referendum either. The only thing it seems to want is to keep May as PM and the conservatives in power. 
When May promised to negotiate a better deal, she said that, no one needs to have what they don´t want and all can have what they want, just as long they support her. Nothing makes sense, but it doesn´t matter as long as no one has to bear the consequences, as it will still be all the EU´s fault. If you doubt that, read the headlines of the Sun and Daily Mail. 
The truth of May´s policy is grim. There is no plan B, there is no plot, there is nothing but coming back with the same demands and getting the same answers. To us that is madness. Personally I can´t understand why you put up with her madness and the current government. But then the US has Trump, Hungary Orban, Italians have Forte Italia and France Le Pen. UK has Brexit. Making sense and doing what is good for the people is obviously not very important in politics is many countries. 

Back to May. She cannot deliver the impossible. Backstop is vital for Ireland and EU will support Ireland. And the Irish want to stay in EU, even more so after Brexit. Like most Europeans, we really want to stay more than ever in EU. So what is May´s tactic? Is it really that she threatens EU with a no deal, a scenario that will ruin UK for a long, long time. It will hurt a bit EU, but hey, in reality it could even mean that more EU companies will get the business instead of the UK. 

Personally again I can´t understand how a conservative party is dramatically making it harder for UK companies to do business? I can understand why it doesn´t care about people, as that is their political agenda. When you say conducting business will be easier without EU, again, it makes no sense. Does anyone really think that it will be a selling pitch to say that in UK we cut all the red tape and that is why our product is so cheap? Do you really think that consumer´s want to buy poor quality products without guarantees when there is a choice? Also, do you really think you can make them as cheap as, for example the Chinese? 

So for us all this makes no sense, it is just sheer madness. But then the populists policies are based on madness, slogans, and creating enemies. I really feel so sorry for British people, you deserve better. Putting Britain first is not what May has been doing. Putting May first is what May has been doing. Good luck and hope for a miracle, because that is what you need.


----------



## JANICE199

Eeyore said:


> This is what most of us think of Brexit in an EU country, a summary of an editorial: "Brexit meets criteria for madness". Einstein once said that it is madness to do the same thing over and over again and each times expects a different outcome. For a logical mind following the twists and turns of the British government has brought lots of suspicions of their real purpose. Are they acting like fools deliberately, playing for time or are they just behaving like a mad person behaves according to Einstein?
> 
> The UK is back to were it started two years ago. UK doesn´t want more time to sort out what it wants, but doesn´t want the the deal it wanted, doesn´t want to leave without deal and doesn´t want to remain. It doesn´t want a new referendum either. The only thing it seems to want is to keep May as PM and the conservatives in power.
> When May promised to negotiate a better deal, she said that, no one needs to have what they don´t want and all can have what they want, just as long they support her. Nothing makes sense, but it doesn´t matter as long as no one has to bear the consequences, as it will still be all the EU´s fault. If you doubt that, read the headlines of the Sun and Daily Mail.
> The truth of May´s policy is grim. There is no plan B, there is no plot, there is nothing but coming back with the same demands and getting the same answers. To us that is madness. Personally I can´t understand why you put up with her madness and the current government. But then the US has Trump, Hungary Orban, Italians have Forte Italia and France Le Pen. UK has Brexit. Making sense and doing what is good for the people is obviously not very important in politics is many countries.
> 
> Back to May. She cannot deliver the impossible. Backstop is vital for Ireland and EU will support Ireland. And the Irish want to stay in EU, even more so after Brexit. Like most Europeans, we really want to stay more than ever in EU. So what is May´s tactic? Is it really that she threatens EU with a no deal, a scenario that will ruin UK for a long, long time. It will hurt a bit EU, but hey, in reality it could even mean that more EU companies will get the business instead of the UK.
> 
> Personally again I can´t understand how a conservative party is dramatically making it harder for UK companies to do business? I can understand why it doesn´t care about people, as that is their political agenda. When you say conducting business will be easier without EU, again, it makes no sense. Does anyone really think that it will be a selling pitch to say that in UK we cut all the red tape and that is why our product is so cheap? Do you really think that consumer´s want to buy poor quality products without guarantees when there is a choice? Also, do you really think you can make them as cheap as, for example the Chinese?
> 
> So for us all this makes no sense, it is just sheer madness. But then the populists policies are based on madness, slogans, and creating enemies. I really feel so sorry for British people, you deserve better. Putting Britain first is not what May has been doing. Putting May first is what May has been doing. Good luck and hope for a miracle, because that is what you need.


*It isn't just Theresa May and brexit that has ruined this country, it's the tory party itself. In all my years ( 69) i have never seen this country in such an awful mess. If i had my way, i happily have the country walk away from the whole brexit mess and concentrate on the state of this country. Too many people are suffering and we need to start getting out priories in order. The world must be having a right laugh at us.*
*Just another thing that goes on in my mind is this, i wonder, if we did leave the EU, would other countries follow? Just saying what's in my mind.*


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> *All i meant was, we should stop interfering with other countries problems until we have sorted out our own.*


Sounds about right.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not the only person to have voiced what I said


Indeed you are not, @stockwellcat. I had a few PM's expressing doubts too. And having studied four languages, two to degree level, I do not consider myself to be xenophobic.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Even ostensibly dressed up as 'humour' I do wonder if this is doing the anti-Brexit cause a lot of good ...


Some of the stuff being touted on the Internet now we're getting close to leaving, has got so far fetched and ridiculous, it's worse than anything even the most extreme of the extremist brexiteers said before the referendum. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I haven't got a clue what you thought my post meant, i think you have misunderstood me.*


My apologies if I have.



JANICE199 said:


> Just* another thing that goes on in my mind is this, i wonder, if we did leave the EU, would other countries follow? Just saying what's in my mind.*


That of course was the hard Brexiters intention, to return to the days where neighbouring European countries had wars with each other every couple of decades or so.

If anything good comes out from Brexit other countries that may have considered this might be put off, seeing the mess the UK government have made.

As it is, Brexiters prediction that the Republic of Ireland would surrender EU membership in favour of becoming part of the UK didn't work, with over 90% of those polled supporting continued EU membership!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Sorry it's not to your taste Arnie. It is intended to be a bit of humour.


Don't get me wrong; I welcome any humorous contribution (in another life I am a professional humorist, believe it or not!). I just think that the Brexit debate might have eroded some people's funny bones such that it is sometimes more likely to antagonise than entertain. Don't stop on my account!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Don't get me wrong; I welcome any humorous contribution (in another life I am a professional humorist, believe it or not!). I just think that the Brexit debate might have eroded some people's funny bones such that it is sometimes more likely to antagonise than entertain. Don't stop on my account!


I see where you're coming from. I was given the book, "Five on Brexit Island", I think it was called that, for Xmas 2017. To this day I still can't bring myself to read it.

'2024' is a serious political thriller with a touch of humour. I've completed 12 chapters so far. I must admit I'm finding some of the later chapters depressing myself which I'll certainly withhold from placing here.


----------



## Snoringbear

1984 is probably a more accurate account


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> 1984 is probably a more accurate account


With the ERG as the de facto Ministry of Truth.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...o-leave-side-s-lawbreaking-1.3568256?mode=amp


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...o-leave-side-s-lawbreaking-1.3568256?mode=amp
> 
> View attachment 391581


You're a bit behind the times!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-legal-challenge-over-brexit-spending-breach

*Vote Leave loses legal challenge over Brexit spending breach*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dent-pro-brexit-activist-fined-22k-vote-leave

*Darren Grimes: the pro-Brexit student activist fined £20k*
BeLeave campaigner also facing possible police investigation over links to Vote Leave


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> A few days ago you & @Magyarmun 'liked' this post of Rona's. There doesn't appear to be any consistency to your argument


 So according to you, liking Rona's post is positive proof that we both condone whaling?

Did you read Rona's post properly? It said and I quote ......

*"We've just signed a multi million pound deal with Japan"*

The WE she was referring to is the UK not the EU, and note she states the currency is Pound Sterling not Euro as it would be if referring to the EU.

This is the Trade Agreement she was talking about - no mention of whales or whaling!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1069918/brexit-news-trade-deal-japan-shinzo-abe-theresa-may

*UK signs £127m trade deal with Japan to export British meat in first time for 23 years*

In any case it would hypocritical of me as a vegetarian who doesn't believe in the slaughter of animals for food, or for experimentation purposes to be in favour of killing whales

which naturally leads me to ask

"Do you eat meat"?


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> So according to you, liking Rona's post is positive proof that we both condone whaling?
> 
> Did you read Rona's post properly? It said and I quote ......
> 
> *"We've just signed a multi million pound deal with Japan"*
> 
> The WE she was referring to is the UK not the EU, and note she states the currency is Pound Sterling not Euro as it would be if referring to the EU.
> 
> This is the Trade Agreement she was talking about - no mention of whales or whaling!
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1069918/brexit-news-trade-deal-japan-shinzo-abe-theresa-may
> 
> *UK signs £127m trade deal with Japan to export British meat in first time for 23 years*
> 
> In any case it would hypocritical of me as a vegetarian who doesn't believe in the slaughter of animals for food, or for experimentation purposes to be in favour of killing whales
> 
> which naturally leads me to ask
> 
> "Do you eat meat"?


From reading your posts you probably live in a more natural and sustainable way than any of the rest of us and you're being accused of being in favour of whaling?


----------



## SusieRainbow

Grigori said:


> What subject is best subject for new member.


I would suggest as it's a pet forum you could tell us about your pets ? With the obligatory photos of course !


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

Death of Nissan's Sunderland plant.


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708
> 
> Death of Nissan's Sunderland plant.


If you read the article that isn't what it says.


----------



## Snoringbear

Start of a slow death. No new models will be added and it will be run down with the outgoing ones.


----------



## cheekyscrip

One of the worst effects of Brexit is losing control over all matters in EU and leaving it to Germany and France.

With Britain in EU supported by many others who didn’t want it to be dominated by Germany/ France/ Austria/ Belgium it was much better and more balanced.

That is the greatest loss for EU.

If British people wanted to leave because they felt that their contributions were not matched by influence in EU they will end up with no influence at all.

Britain won the war and lost the peace.

Tusk was very right saying it a loss for both EU and Britain.

Heseltine was right too. 

This is why Thatcher was so much in favour of being in and having control.

This is why Poland or Hungary are so worried about Brexit. 

If you were under Soviets you want to stay clear of Russia.
Yet they don’t want to be satellites of Germany, but what the choice if you next to Russia?

South of Europe depends on EU ...
Scandi will not go out either...


----------



## Elles

Motor vehicle manufacturers worldwide are cutting back on investment in their diesel models, as they are no longer popular with customers and governments, due to emissions and climate change.

Normally conservationists would be celebrating this as a win for the planet.

Because of Brexit they are instead focusing on potential job losses and Brexit blaming. The bbc article even goes on to say that it’s future investment in a new diesel model that is rumoured to be being halted and it’s unlikely to affect current jobs. Yet here we have ‘Death of Nissan’s Sunderland plant’

Nissan are part owned by Japan and France, if they move operations out of Britain, it wouldn’t be surprising, Brexit or no Brexit. It was rumoured some time ago that only our government investment was keeping them here. This is not, imho, a brexit concern. Trying to make everything about Brexit isn’t honest, or helping.


----------



## KittenKong

One rule for Britain Farage?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Nissan are part owned by Japan and France, if they move operations out of Britain, it wouldn't be surprising, Brexit or no Brexit. It was rumoured some time ago that only our government investment was keeping them here. This is not, imho, a brexit concern. Trying to make everything about Brexit isn't honest, or helping.


Remainers are totally blaming Brexit and are beside themselves with joy yet they're the ignorant ones . On Twitter they're being really nasty about the workers at Sunderland .


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> One rule for Britain Farage?
> View attachment 391626


It is an outrage here, we fought very hard for a different status.
How would you call Ceuta and Mellila?

The outrage that the slime like Farage who put us in such danger can actually say anything!!!

He definitely should not book holidays here...

We are no longer a colony , same as Channel Islands are NOT colonies, even if some are closer to the French shore no one says they should be French.

People of Gibraltar are British. Not second class British, natives in British colony.

Spain all the time claims since Franco that it is a colony and should be decolonised and Spanish.

People here are not Spanish, not colony.
I can get my passport here or in London and it is ordinary British passport.

Thus in hotel in Cadiz lady in reception checking us in was pleasantly surprised we both spoke fluent Spanish, she said British hardly ever do.
We didn't disabuse her...


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Remainers are totally blaming Brexit and are beside themselves with joy yet they're the ignorant ones . On Twitter they're being really nasty about the workers at Sunderland .


Wait a minute! While I have little sympathies for their leave voting staff I wouldn't wish job losses on anyone.

I certainly wouldn't rejoice at their demise of a job.

If it was Dyson or Weatherspoons going bust I might think differently!

And why do you insist Brexit has nothing to do with firms leaving the UK at such a rate?

If I was in their shoes needing unrestricted access elsewhere in Europe I would do the same.

The hypocrite Brexiter Dyson has, he's Brexited alright!

To say Brexit has nothing to do with this is like saying Thatcher had nothing to do with putting three million out of work during the 1980s.

Then, some Tory supporters still argue it was the fault of the unions and not Thatcher herself!


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> It is an outrage here, we fought very hard for a different status.
> How would you call Ceuta and Mellila?
> 
> The outrage that the slime like Farage who put us in such danger can actually say anything!!!
> 
> He definitely should not book holidays here...
> 
> We are no longer a colony , same as Channel Islands are NOT colonies, even if some are closer to the French shore no one says they should be French.
> 
> People of Gibraltar are British. Not second class British, natives in British colony.
> 
> Spain all the time claims since Franco that it is a colony and should be decolonised and Spanish.
> 
> People here are not Spanish, not colony.
> I can get my passport here or in London and it is ordinary British passport.
> 
> Thus in hotel in Cadiz lady in reception checking us in was pleasantly surprised we both spoke fluent Spanish, she said British hardly ever do.
> We didn't disabuse her...


Well he is sticking up for Gibraltar this time.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Remainers are totally blaming Brexit and are beside themselves with joy yet they're the ignorant ones . On Twitter they're being really nasty about the workers at Sunderland .


----------



## Elles

I post about a 3bn investment in the U.K. in ripening centre company for fresh food produce in the U.K., with the job creation in the factories and through distribution and the food supply that will bring and only brexiteers are pleased about it. Car companies bring a halt to diesel car production, for a number of reasons unrelated to brexit and it’s brexitageddon to Remainers, including those who care for the environment. 

Dyson moved some operations to Singapore a while ago, to serve the Asian market, which is 2/3 of Dyson sales. R&D on his new electric cars is in the U.K. where he recently invested millions in a new base in Wiltshire. He has never manufactured in the U.K. and Singapore is more expensive even than here. As people say, Brexit is unlikely to make any difference to him, other than losing his farm subsidies, so he must have other reasons for thinking it’s a good idea. 

I don’t disagree that uncertainty over brexit has meant some corporations/companies have slowed or halted investment and /or moved some of their operations out of the U.K. (and its colony ), but at least bring up the genuine ones, where brexit is the reason when complaining.


----------



## Elles

The latest seems to be that Whitehall plan to evacuate the Queen to protect her from riots in the event of ‘no deal’ Brexit. 

So is it Remainers who are going to be rioting and attacking Liz? Brexiteers want to leave the Eu, so it can’t be them.

Whatever next.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> It is an outrage here, we fought very hard for a different status.
> How would you call Ceuta and Mellila?
> 
> The outrage that the slime like Farage who put us in such danger can actually say anything!!!
> 
> He definitely should not book holidays here...
> 
> We are no longer a colony , same as Channel Islands are NOT colonies, even if some are closer to the French shore no one says they should be French.
> 
> People of Gibraltar are British. Not second class British, natives in British colony.
> 
> Spain all the time claims since Franco that it is a colony and should be decolonised and Spanish.
> 
> People here are not Spanish, not colony.
> I can get my passport here or in London and it is ordinary British passport.
> 
> Thus in hotel in Cadiz lady in reception checking us in was pleasantly surprised we both spoke fluent Spanish, she said British hardly ever do.
> We didn't disabuse her...


Cheeky, it was the EU that called Gibraltar a colony NOT Nigel Farage! He was, quite rightly, registering his outrage at this insult, on behalf of the people of the UK and Gibraltar.

He is in case you didn't know, an MEP and that is part of his job! What would you have him do? Sit there like a lump of lard and say nothing?

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/01/eu-angers-uk-by-calling-gibraltar-a-colony-of-the-british-crown

*"Gibraltar is a colony of the British Crown.* There is a controversy between Spain and the United Kingdom concerning the sovereignty over Gibraltar, a territory for which a solution has to be reached in light of the relevant resolutions and decisions of the General Assembly of the United Nations," the *EU document says.*


----------



## grumpy goby

Elles said:


> The latest seems to be that Whitehall plan to evacuate the Queen to protect her from riots in the event of 'no deal' Brexit.
> 
> So is it Remainers who are going to be rioting and attacking Liz? Brexiteers want to leave the Eu, so it can't be them.
> 
> Whatever next.


I assume it's just the general public as a result of *potential*:
Price hikes in food
Food supply shortages
Medical supply shortages
General Household expenses increases.
Loss of manufacturing jobs etc
Ie generally people being less well off...

I don't think it means riots on the stroke of midnight for exiting the EU.

Also, the whole article stinks of clickbait.

_Also_ worth noting there are tunnels under London between key buildings for emergency evacuation back to the war (source, used to work in one of them... have seen the tunnels. Still maintained and functioning) - little to do with brexit and more to do with general contingency.

The whole thing is a big unknown. No one knows what will happen. They will of course prepare for "worst case" - like any big organisation the government will have a disaster recovery type plan...


----------



## Snoringbear

Elles said:


> Motor vehicle manufacturers worldwide are cutting back on investment in their diesel models, as they are no longer popular with customers and governments, due to emissions and climate change.
> 
> Normally conservationists would be celebrating this as a win for the planet.
> 
> Because of Brexit they are instead focusing on potential job losses and Brexit blaming. The bbc article even goes on to say that it's future investment in a new diesel model that is rumoured to be being halted and it's unlikely to affect current jobs. Yet here we have 'Death of Nissan's Sunderland plant'
> 
> Nissan are part owned by Japan and France, if they move operations out of Britain, it wouldn't be surprising, Brexit or no Brexit. It was rumoured some time ago that only our government investment was keeping them here. This is not, imho, a brexit concern. Trying to make everything about Brexit isn't honest, or helping.


Also says "and there is obviously the overhang of Brexit and the worries of the impact that might have on a plant that exports about 80% of its vehicles."

I don't find it particularly honest or helpful when obvious links to Brexit are deflected.


----------



## Magyarmum

grumpy goby said:


> I assume it's just the general public as a result of *potential*:
> Price hikes in food
> Food supply shortages
> Medical supply shortages
> General Household expenses increases.
> Loss of manufacturing jobs etc
> Ie generally people being less well off...
> 
> I don't think it means riots on the stroke of midnight for exiting the EU.
> 
> Also, the whole article stinks of clickbait.
> 
> _Also_ worth noting their are tunnels under London between key buildings for emergency evacuation back to the war (source, used to work in one of them... have seen the tunnels. Still maintained and functioning) - little to do with brexit and more to do with general contingency.
> 
> The whole thing is a big unknown. No one knows what will happen. They will of course prepare for "worst case" - like any big organisation the government will have a disaster recovery type plan...


Exactly!

A couple of newspaper articles about it - none of which are in anyway sensational .....

http://royalcentral.co.uk/uk/theque...yal-family-if-brexit-results-in-unrest-115389

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...acuated-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-riots-times


----------



## grumpy goby

Snoringbear said:


> Also says "and there is obviously the overhang of Brexit and the worries of the impact that might have on a plant that exports about 80% of its vehicles."
> 
> I don't find it particularly honest or helpful when obvious links to Brexit are deflected.


Agreed. I think the Xtrail is a model that is predominantly exported to Europe. Ignoring that fact, and saying that the link to Brexit is exaggerated is naive.


Magyarmum said:


> Exactly!
> 
> A couple of newspaper articles about it - none of which are in anyway sensational .....
> 
> http://royalcentral.co.uk/uk/theque...yal-family-if-brexit-results-in-unrest-115389
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...acuated-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-riots-times


Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe the average British household will be worse off for Brexit. I cannot see how they won't. 
However I think the media should focus more on facts than clickbaity sensationalism.

The Nissan news is more worrying regarding Brexit, than evac plans for the royals.


----------



## Snoringbear

Going back a while, but here are some comments from the Leave campaign's economic poster boy. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mps-react-after-vote-leave-11269819


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Well he is sticking up for Gibraltar this time.


He put us in that mess and now sticking for us?

What a great help from so well respected and hard working MEP:Banghead


----------



## cheekyscrip

Snoringbear said:


> Going back a while, but here are some comments from the Leave campaign's economic poster boy. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mps-react-after-vote-leave-11269819


It seems now people should sacrifice their livehoods pn the altar of " pure Brexit"... because now just Brexit is not good enough.

Manufacturing, farming, financial services, universities - anyone actually thinks how it will affect the budget?

How it will affect the people?

I don't believe in " we made our bed" philosophy.

Referendum was based on lies and unfounded promises.

People should know the truth.
What Deal they can get
without destroying the economy and then decide if it is better than what we have got.

Unfortunately both Tories and to great extent Labour - Corbyn put their party above their country.

Anything to win election and put snouts in the trough.

Voting on amendments did not put Labour in a good light either.
Not enough. Too little, too late.

People spoken? Half of the people and surely not all of them voted for Brexit at the price of losing their jobs, recession and problems in NI, Gibraltar.

This is why Brexit was had more support among those who don't work any more..
Don't need to work...
Don't work and on benefits...


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Motor vehicle manufacturers worldwide are cutting back on investment in their diesel models, as they are no longer popular with customers and governments, due to emissions and climate change. Normally conservationists would be celebrating this as a win for the planet.
> 
> Because of Brexit they are instead focusing on potential job losses and Brexit blaming. The bbc article even goes on to say that it's future investment in a new diesel model that is rumoured to be being halted and it's *unlikely to affect current jobs*. Yet here we have 'Death of Nissan's Sunderland plant'
> 
> Nissan are part owned by Japan and France, if they move operations out of Britain, it wouldn't be surprising, Brexit or no Brexit. It was rumoured some time ago that only our government investment was keeping them here. This is not, imho, a brexit concern. Trying to make everything about Brexit isn't honest, or helping.


Nissan haven't revealed the decision yet, let alone the reasoning behind it, so I'm not going to suggest how much of it is down to Brexit, though I would be very surprised if the fact that the UK is not as attractive as an investment opportunity than it would have been.

And that, along with the highlighted bit in your post, is my point about the effects of Brexit. We won't lose those 5000 Nissan jobs because we never had them. But it is certainly in part because of Brexit that we won't get them. We won't see the economy crashing, but it will grow more slowly than it would have done. Nissan might not be the perfect example, but it is indicative of what will happen. The investment, the jobs and the growth will go elsewhere.


----------



## Elles

If, and as you say they haven’t said yet, a motor manufacture cancels investment in diesel cars, it’s because they’re diesel.

If a motor manufacture moves production and /or investment in diesel cars from the U.K. to, say, France, I would blame brexit.

It’s not that we won’t get the jobs, it’s that they will no longer exist, because the car they were going to produce and what the factory is set up for is diesel and Nissan are cutting back on diesel.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If, and as you say they haven't said yet, a motor manufacture cancels investment in diesel cars, it's because they're diesel.
> 
> If a motor manufacture moves production and /or investment in diesel cars from the U.K. to, say, France, I would blame brexit.
> 
> It's not that we won't get the jobs, it's that they will no longer exist, because the car they were going to produce and what the factory is set up for is diesel and Nissan are cutting back on diesel.


Which is why I said Nissan is not the perfect example, because there are a number of very good reasons for the decision. There is no doubt that we will be a less attractive investment destination though, which will reduce our growth in job numbers.

(I'd still quite like to know what was in the Government letter sent to Nissan for Brexit reassurance, though.)


----------



## Elles

That’s what I was saying. At least use companies where brexit is clearly a reason for stagnation, cancellation, or relocation if you want to promote the remain message. Every time I read the latest exaggeration, prediction, or manipulation of the facts by Remainers, it makes me groan. Isn’t there enough out there that this kind of thing can be avoided?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Which is why I said Nissan is not the perfect example, because there are a number of very good reasons for the decision. There is no doubt that we will be a less attractive investment destination though, which will reduce our growth in job numbers.
> 
> (I'd still quite like to know what was in the Government letter sent to Nissan for Brexit reassurance, though.)


Not forgetting of course the arrest and trial of Nissan Chairman Carlos Ghosn has thrown the Auto Alliance of Renault, Mitsubishi and Nissan into turmoil and caused problems between Japan and France!

https://www.investors.com/news/niss...-arrested-nissan-renault-mitsubishi-alliance/

*Nissan Chairman Carlos Ghosn's Arrest Throws Biggest Auto Alliance Into Turmoil*

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ance-spat-over-nissan-renault-brews-1.3715659

*Japan-France spat over Nissan-Renault brews*


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> That's what I was saying. At least use companies where brexit is clearly a reason for stagnation, cancellation, or relocation if you want to promote the remain message. Every time I read the latest exaggeration, prediction, or manipulation of the facts by Remainers, it makes me groan. Isn't there enough out there that this kind of thing can be avoided?


I'm not feeling particularly argumentative this morning (honest!) but I think I should probably disassociate myself from the term 'Remainer'. I would like to see a further referendum for reasons of democracy, and I would hope that Remain would be on the ballot for the same reason, and I would like to see it come out on top. But my posts are not generally intended to sway people to vote that way should they get the chance, they are more to clarify what Leaving actually means.

While Project Fear and Scaremongering are established responses to, if not refutations of the various warnings, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that all the economic promises of the Leave campaign - and I mean 'all' - were, and are, Project La-La Land and Reassurance-mongering!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not feeling particularly argumentative this morning (honest!) but I think I should probably disassociate myself from the term 'Remainer'. I would like to see a further referendum for reasons of democracy, and I would hope that Remain would be on the ballot for the same reason, and I would like to see it come out on top. But my posts are not generally intended to sway people to vote that way should they get the chance, they are more to clarify what Leaving actually means.
> 
> While Project Fear and Scaremongering are established responses to, if not refutations of the various warnings, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that all the economic promises of the Leave campaign - and I mean 'all' - were, and are, Project La-La Land and Reassurance-mongering!


If the cap doesn't fit don't wear it.  I haven't generally seen the scaremongering in your posts, I have seen you also refute it.

One problem is most of it can't be proved, especially not now. We have no idea what someone like Boris would have come up with if he was PM instead of Theresa May. We might have already left, sorted out a few mini deals to get us over a short term chaos and be ploughing more money into the nhs by now and living on Irish potatoes and bleached chicken.


----------



## KittenKong

grumpy goby said:


> I assume it's just the general public as a result of *potential*:
> Price hikes in food
> Food supply shortages
> Medical supply shortages
> General Household expenses increases.
> Loss of manufacturing jobs etc
> Ie generally people being less well off...
> 
> I don't think it means riots on the stroke of midnight for exiting the EU.
> 
> Also, the whole article stinks of clickbait.
> 
> _Also_ worth noting there are tunnels under London between key buildings for emergency evacuation back to the war (source, used to work in one of them... have seen the tunnels. Still maintained and functioning) - little to do with brexit and more to do with general contingency.
> 
> The whole thing is a big unknown. No one knows what will happen. They will of course prepare for "worst case" - like any big organisation the government will have a disaster recovery type plan...


Indeed. I imagine the day after the UK leaves the EU passionate remainers like myself will be trolled by Brexiters with comments like, "Told you the world wouldn't end" and probably far worse with insults to boot.

No one expects the UK to run out of food and medical supplies overnight, but do predict chaos in Kent and at the UK/EU border in Ireland with a no deal.

Also, the Cities will be the last to suffer but imagine remote rural areas will be the first to suffer shortages of supplies.

I also imagine the multitude of job losses will be deflected by news of jobs needed to build the Irish Wall and offered only to UK born citizens.

The media and Brexiters would love that, British jobs for British workers and all that.

The question is, how long will the honeymoon period last?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If the cap doesn't fit don't wear it.  I haven't generally seen the scaremongering in your posts, I have seen you also refute it.
> 
> One problem is most of it can't be proved, especially not now. We have no idea what someone like Boris would have come up with if he was PM instead of Theresa May. We might have already left, sorted out a few mini deals to get us over a short term chaos and be ploughing more money into the nhs by now and living on Irish potatoes and bleached chicken.


You paint an attractive picture!


----------



## Arnie83

Way to go Jezza!

Opinium/Observer latest political poll: CON: 41% (+4) LAB: 34% (-6) LDEM: 8% (+1) UKIP: 7% (-) GRN: 4% (-) 30 Jan - 01 Feb


----------



## Snoringbear

While Corbyn says many things I agree with, his greatest problem is his dithering indecision with regard to Brexit. I don’t think it’s helpful that he’s a fence sitter. There are other party members who are more focused. It makes him somewhat unelectable as a result imo.


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> I assume it's just the general public as a result of *potential*:


I think she will be safe enough in Buckingham Palace though. It's not going to be like WW2 with bombs and barrage balloons (interesting that barrage rhymes with Farage).


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> That's what I was saying. At least use companies where brexit is clearly a reason for stagnation, cancellation, or relocation if you want to promote the remain message. Every time I read the latest exaggeration, prediction, or manipulation of the facts by Remainers, it makes me groan. Isn't there enough out there that this kind of thing can be avoided?


If you see the letters from investment companies or financial advisers there is a consensus as to investment in UK companies or anything UK.

One adviser put it as UK Markets: Brexit and didn't waste his ink any further...

But I am sure the will be capital... Putin did not mean invest in Brexit for nothing...

Once enough of UK domiciled companies are owned by them, once they have enough influence and politicians in their pockets...

So much for getting back control!!!!

As to riots , I think the most likely to riot are those who genuinely believed in Brexit promises and will realise that they were had.

But government will deflect their anger in the usual direction: Remain, EU , immigrants.

Then we will have " pogroms"....


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Then we will have " pogroms"....


And gulags?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Way to go Jezza!
> 
> Opinium/Observer latest political poll: CON: 41% (+4) LAB: 34% (-6) LDEM: 8% (+1) UKIP: 7% (-) GRN: 4% (-) 30 Jan - 01 Feb


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-slumps-polls-tories-open-194000343.html

*Labour slump gives Tories biggest lead since general election*


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not feeling particularly argumentative this morning (honest!) but I think I should probably disassociate myself from the term 'Remainer'. I would like to see a further referendum for reasons of democracy, and I would hope that Remain would be on the ballot for the same reason, and I would like to see it come out on top. But my posts are not generally intended to sway people to vote that way should they get the chance, they are more to clarify what Leaving actually means.
> 
> While Project Fear and Scaremongering are established responses to, if not refutations of the various warnings, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that all the economic promises of the Leave campaign - and I mean 'all' - were, and are, Project La-La Land and Reassurance-mongering!


I think your attitude makes your posts very readable, Even if you refer to yourself as a Remainer, I would still think the same.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. I imagine the day after the UK leaves the EU passionate remainers like myself will be trolled by Brexiters with comments like, "Told you the world wouldn't end" and probably far worse with insults to boot.


 What makes you think this? Are you referring to people on PF or to the population in general? TBH, apart from a few close friends and associates, no-one knows (or cares) what my views are. Not my neighbours and not people I work with as I do not discuss it with them; if they raise the subject I remain non-commital. Maybe you should play your cards a bit closer to your chest? Who in God's name is going to ''troll'' or insult you??


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> While Corbyn says many things I agree with, his greatest problem is his dithering indecision with regard to Brexit. I don't think it's helpful that he's a fence sitter. There are other party members who are more focused. It makes him somewhat unelectable as a result imo.


Ive said some horrible things about him but I almost feel sorry for him. Ive said this before but he's not PM material . He would have been better if he had remained Labour's conscience and then he wouldn't have to compromise himself.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> (I'd still quite like to know what was in the Government letter sent to Nissan for Brexit reassurance, though.)


 I think they should publish it . I expect she was bribing them to stay . Was it just a letter or was it talks as well .

On the news someone said that its more likely Nissan got fed up with all the messing around and No deal scenario and decided to pull out .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> And gulags?


You wish? We already had attacks on immigrants, completely innocent people or their property.

If it is not very much like "pogroms" ?
Why ?
Because immigrants were blamed for lack of housing, school placements, hospital beds...

As well as blamed for immigration.

Not government, not Home Secretary.
So if recession hits you think Tories will accept the blame? Brexit mongers will? 
Boris??? Farage?

With such a splendid record of deflection?


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I think they should publish it . I expect she was bribing them to stay . Was it just a letter or was it talks as well .
> On the news someone said that its more likely Nissan got fed up with all the messing around and No deal scenario and decided to pull out .


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/03/business/nissan-sunderland-scraps-plans-gbr-intl/index.html

*Nissan cites Brexit 'uncertainty' as it scraps plans to build model in Britain*


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I think they should publish it . I expect she was bribing them to stay . Was it just a letter or was it talks as well .
> 
> On the news someone said that its more likely Nissan got fed up with all the messing around and No deal scenario and decided to pull out .


I'm sure they had extensive talks and pretty sure they made some undeliverable promises in the letter!

No Deal I think would certainly hit the UK car industry hard, regardless of whether they have other problems as well. It's not really believable that all the bosses of the various companies have been scaremongering!


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/03/business/nissan-sunderland-scraps-plans-gbr-intl/index.html
> 
> *Nissan cites Brexit 'uncertainty' as it scraps plans to build model in Britain*


 Thanks . If you have posted the link before then I'm sorry I missed it. 
I dont need to google , I'll just ask you


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure they had extensive talks and pretty sure they made some undeliverable promises in the letter!


I can imagine!



> No Deal I think would certainly hit the UK car industry hard, regardless of whether they have other problems as well. It's not really believable that all the bosses of the various companies have been scaremongering!


 I just assume that the No deal started off as a threat but is becoming a reality . Its not something I want but the Deal we are getting isn't pleasing anybody.
We're between a rock and a hard place. I dont think an extension will help either.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I just assume that the No deal started off as a threat but is becoming a reality . Its not something I want but *the Deal we are getting isn't pleasing anybody.*
> We're between a rock and a hard place. I dont think an extension will help either.


With a 52-48 split is that necessarily a bad thing though?


----------



## Arnie83

Well this is a weight off my mind ...

*UK and Faroe Islands sign trade continuity agreement*

A trade continuity agreement will see British businesses and consumers benefitting from continued trade with the Faroe Islands after we leave the European Union. ​
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-faroe-islands-sign-trade-continuity-agreement

Phew!


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I can imagine!
> 
> I just assume that the No deal started off as a threat but is becoming a reality . Its not something I want but the Deal we are getting isn't pleasing anybody.
> We're between a rock and a hard place. I dont think an extension will help either.


The Deal negotiations started with red lines.. what could go wrong???

Wasn't EU making it explicit what we can expect from the deal?

Before the referendum.
People were told by ERG that it will be the easiest deal, they need us more and so on.
ERG lies.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> With a 52-48 split is that necessarily a bad thing though?


I see your point but it seems May isn't going to get a better deal so its back to whether we should have another referendum or people's vote.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> We're between a rock and a hard place. I dont think an extension will help either.


I don't think anything will help us now.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think anything will help us now.


Second referendum.
Honesty might.
Labour putting the interest of the nation before the party or wishes of individual constituencies in 2016?

I am sure Welsh farmers twigged by now that lambs cannot be sold to Australia...

Brexit is wrong on so many different levels and economy is just one of them.

It hands power in EU to Germany/France.
All De Gaulle wanted.
Ultimately it will be Germany and satellites...

So wrong.

Britain will be divided, controlled by international corporations with lots of Murdoch like figures and puppet politicians.

Environment, culture, science will suffer too.

Not just economy.

Who needs to drag their country into that mess?

Whatever people were promised, no point to deny it was a pack of fantasy Brexit.

Now we are talking about RL - do we really want to take a gamble on our nation?
Shall we allow it to happen?

Why????

Because we voted? 
Then vote AGAIN!!!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Thanks . If you have posted the link before then I'm sorry I missed it.
> I dont need to google , I'll just ask you


It's a pleasure! Looking things up and researching subjects on the internet was an important part of my job before I retired, and something I enjoy doing.

It's surprising what you learn along the way!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> We already had attacks on immigrants, completely innocent people


 There were 43 fatal stabbings in London alone last month; the London Mayor says this is ''part and parcel of living in a large city''. I have not read of 43 attacks on immigrants. The stabbings were nothing to do with racial prejudice, nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred of immigrants as the attacks were mainly ''black on black'' and gang-related. Are you going to blame that on Brexit too? Anything else you can think of?


----------



## grumpy goby

Calvine said:


> There were 43 fatal stabbings in London alone last month; the London Mayor says this is ''part and parcel of living in a large city''. I have not read of 43 attacks on immigrants. The stabbings were nothing to do with racial prejudice, nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred of immigrants as the attacks were mainly ''black on black'' and gang-related. Are you going to blame that on Brexit too? Anything else you can think of?


Come now, it is rather disingenuous to conflate gang related violence in London, to the openly discussed, documented and researched phenomena of an increase in intolerance toward minority groups and immigrants and generally more open racism... (this increase has also been noted by the UN's special rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance ), hate crimes reported spiked post brexit referendum ( even considering other mitigating factors this appeared to be the case) and racists suddenly feeling that their opinions are validated by the situation.

Edit to add- not all leave voters are racist but I would hazard a guess that most racists would feel vindicated and empowered in their beliefs by the leave result.


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> not all leave voters are racist


Some people posting on here think that they are. There were racists before Brexit and there will be still be afterwards. People talking about pogroms is just BS . . . tho' no-one else seemed to think it was a ridiculous comment. We have had posts about Nazis and fascists, but now pogroms. I despair; I truly do.


----------



## grumpy goby

Calvine said:


> Some people posting on here think that they are. There were racists before Brexit and there will be still be afterwards. People talking about pogroms is just BS . . . tho' no-one else seemed to think it was a ridiculous comment. We have had posts about Nazis and fascists, but now pogroms. I despair; I truly do.


There are attitudes on bothsides which are not conducive to reasoned and sensible debate - some remain supporters accusations of racism, extremism and fascism - and some leave voters cries of fake news or scaremongering at any opinion (including those of experts, and economic modelling) which points towards a negative impact on the economy or society.


----------



## KittenKong

Bah, more scaremongering!

They're sure to support May's deal now!

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...t-of-no-deal-reports-claim-1-4866849?wewewew=


----------



## KittenKong

I expect some will blame remainers for not believing in Britain!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Bah, more scaremongering!
> 
> They're sure to support May's deal now!
> 
> https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...t-of-no-deal-reports-claim-1-4866849?wewewew=
> View attachment 391932


You're really behind the times!

That's old news and if you'd read the thread you'd see it's already been discussed!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> There were 43 fatal stabbings in London alone last month; the London Mayor says this is ''part and parcel of living in a large city''. I have not read of 43 attacks on immigrants. The stabbings were nothing to do with racial prejudice, nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred of immigrants as the attacks were mainly ''black on black'' and gang-related. Are you going to blame that on Brexit too? Anything else you can think of?


What that has to do with well documented spike in abuse of immigrants???

I never said all crimes are racist etc???

Deflection???

I said that if Brexit is not very successful which is very likely it might lead to further escalating of those crimes?

*


----------



## Elles

Why are people falling for the hype? This is all to get Theresa May’s deal through. 

Since the announcements in investment in diesel cars, there are global restrictions on them, there was the VW scandal, they will be banned altogether and people aren’t buying them. Of course there’s no investment in them now, it has very little if anything to do with a no deal brexit. Company bosses who want to stay in the Eu, what a surprise a French boss wants to stay in, are bound to try to blame brexit. I for one don’t believe them.

If you notice, the threat of riots, empty shelves, companies leaving etc is all about uncertainty and no deal. The People’s Vote seems to be dead in the water, as is a General election. Looks like it’s deal, or no deal.

The Eu will likely have to reform and we’ll probably join it again one day, but it does look as though we’re leaving and Theresa May’s deal is the best option for Remainers as it’s the closest to staying in and isn’t the final say.


----------



## grumpy goby

Nissan PR actually states the decision was influenced by the EU uncertainty. Brexit is not inconsequential here.

They are openly saying here that uncertainty around Europe has made it difficult to plan for the manufacture of models in their U.K. plant.

This isnt a whatif, or scaremongering tactic. It's an actual thing that's actually happening that has a negative impact on thousands of actual people. And the leave vote has played a part in that, be that an additional nail in the coffin or a major part in considering where to make a model which is predominantly exported to Europe.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Elles

Nissan invested in their electric car manufacturing in the U.K.

They cut investment in the USA which I suppose was also down to brexit.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tion-by-up-to-20-percent-nikkei-idUSKCN1IT26C


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> What that has to do with well documented spike in abuse of immigrants???
> 
> I never said all crimes are racist etc???
> 
> Deflection???
> 
> I said that if Brexit is not very successful which is very likely it might lead to further escalating of those crimes?
> 
> *


Two reports worth reading

https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/hatecrimethefactsbehindtheheadlines.pdf

http://www.irr.org.uk/app/uploads/2016/11/Racial-violence-and-the-Brexit-state-final.pdf

And here are the official crime statistics for the UK in 2018

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingjune2018

Enjoy!


----------



## grumpy goby

Leavers; By all means, hold your opinion about brexit being good in the long run, I don’t get it myself but I am sure you have reasons that make sense to you. But let’s not ignore actual events as they unfold and pretend they are coincidental when they clearly aren’t.

Nissan have pointed towards EU uncertainty making planning difficult for them to plan for their U.K. plant future.

Airbus have openly said a no deal brexit could see the closure of plants which hire 14000 people.

Jaguar Land Rover are planning to axe 5000 jobs citing a threat to business operations due to brexit

Panasonic are relocating their HQ to europe citing Brexit

Barclays moving partial operations to Ireland.

These things are happening, or are being considered at the very least.

Patrick Minford predicted this stuff in 2012 saying “these things happen” as brexit key economist... he believes in the long run things will be better and who knows maybe they will.

But don’t lets pretend that there won’t be very real impacts to very real jobs at least in the short to medium term


----------



## Elles

grumpy goby said:


> View attachment 391945
> Nissan PR actually states the decision was influenced by the EU uncertainty. Brexit is not inconsequential here.
> 
> They are openly saying here that uncertainty around Europe has made it difficult to plan for the manufacture of models in their U.K. plant.
> 
> This isnt a whatif, or scaremongering tactic. It's an actual thing that's actually happening that has a negative impact on thousands of actual people. And the leave vote has played a part in that, be that an additional nail in the coffin or a major part in considering where to make a model which is predominantly exported to Europe.


I'm not saying it's scaremongering or what if, I'm saying they're lying. The French government has a stake in Nissan and they're cancelling diesel and luxury car production and not just in the U.K. They aren't cancelling their other vehicles, they upped production on those only last year. They may well eventually move manufacturing to mainland Europe, Japan, America, or the moon if it's better for them logistically and financially, but current changes I do not believe are down to Brexit,


----------



## Elles

Jaguar, luxury diesel car, no longer popular and sales down. Nothing to do with Brexit, everything to do with emissions. In fact the Eu are in a big way responsible, they want our air to be cleaner.

The rest I don’t know, I haven’t looked at them. That was my point. There’s enough genuine stuff going on, without adding things that have little, if anything to do with Brexit. It just gives ammunition.

I voted Remain.


----------



## grumpy goby

Both Jaguar and Nissan have actually cited brexit as _factors_ in their decision making.
I'm not saying the only factor (I believe I made this clear in my first post about it "either final nail In The coffin or a major factor")

I chose to believe press releases rather than conspiracy theories about corporations lying, which gains them little favour in my opinion.

ETA: regarding the existing models staying, this is true and good for the short term. But having worked in manufacturing which closed to move to Europe some years ago I can assure you the new products are the life blood of plant. New products mean investment of The current plant and staffing, and increased security that it will continue for the long term. Ceasing new model manufacture isn't a brilliant sign for Sunderland's long term future.


----------



## Elles

grumpy goby said:


> Both Jaguar and Nissan have actually cited brexit as _factors_ in their decision making.
> I'm not saying the only factor (I believe I made this clear in my first post about it "either final nail In The coffin or a major factor")
> 
> I chose to believe press releases rather than conspiracy theories about corporations lying, which gains them little favour in my opinion.


It's not a conspiracy, it's evidence based. Nissan have and still are investing in electric car production in the U.K. and elsewhere, they have cut diesel car production and development in the U.K. and elsewhere. Their PR can say what they like, I call bull and invoke Hitchen's Razor. VW also said their diesel car emissions were lower than they were, which set all this off and an Eu boss of Nissan was arrested for fraud in November along with a senior executive. Jaguar sales are down, if we hadn't hadn't had the referendum you think they'd still be investing in their diesel powered luxury cars and stockpiling them?

ETA I would have left it there, if you hadn't implied that I'm believing conspiracy theories, when I drew my own conclusions and haven't seen any conspiracy theories.


----------



## grumpy goby

Jaguar - they have said sales are a factor; they haven't hidden that fact, as is brexit which affects the scale of the rollback and the speed. The post brexit stand down only affects the U.K. and not their international factories for example. It's actually *creating* 3000 jobs in Slovakia...

Nissan - I absolutely, at my very core, dispute that brexit has no part to play in this. It makes absolute sense that our position in Europe hinders the manufacture and distribution of a model that is predominantly exported to Europe. It would make no sense to make European exports here if they have other options.

I say "us" and "here" as the world's worst immigrant. I am in NZ lol..


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> We already had attacks on immigrants


It is also a fact that ''hate crimes'' against immigrants were a reaction to the terror attacks which took place and little or nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> hate crimes reported spiked post brexit referendum


 https://news.sky.com/story/britains-year-of-terror-timeline-of-attacks-in-2017-11036824

Here ^^^^^^ are just a few reasons why ''hate crimes'' increased post-Brexit (2017). Even if Brexit had not happened, these terror attacks _would_ have and there would have been a reaction to them from some people. 2017 was a hell of a year for attacks on civilians.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/britains-year-of-terror-timeline-of-attacks-in-2017-11036824
> 
> Here ^^^^^^ are just a few reasons why ''hate crimes'' increased post-Brexit (2017). Even if Brexit had not happened, these terror attacks _would_ have and there would have been a reaction to them from some people. 2017 was a hell of a year for attacks on civilians.


Indeed. The way this was reported was xenophobic in itself which has also contributed to the rise in hate crime.

Reminds me of the anti-Irish rhetoric in the '70s and '80s where all Irish people were treated as potential IRA supporters and activists.

Not saying you do Calvine, but it's wrong to target certain people as potential terrorists because of their skin colour and religious beliefs.

You could use the same argument to say not all leave voters are bigoted racists!


----------



## KittenKong

"Gizz me deal, go on"...

Anyone else remember Yosser Hughes?


----------



## Elles

Jaguar is talking about Land Rover and it invested in Slovakia before the referendum, they had some government money towards it. They expect pay in 2020 to be from €900 a month, less than U.K. minimum wage, with €1800 as top salary to the workers. 

Forgive my cynicism, but before the referendum they were already moving Land Rover production to Slovakia. 

I admit to being a bit on my own over this, but I think it’s a good thing that companies are moving to the workforces, allowing communities to thrive, instead of young workers abandoning their homelands for work, leaving crumbling, deserted towns and/or families behind. It’s good for the poorer economies of Europe and beyond.

We need better examples than diesel cars and companies that were already moving, if we want to persuade people that too many businesses will relocate and leave us without jobs that nothing else will replace though.


----------



## JANICE199

*Might be of interest to some.*
*https://news.sky.com/story/four-key...L4Hg-fjYpbOoQgJOHpc-Eoi7cNo2Wp1UnB0kh2NfJoVMw*


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Jaguar is talking about Land Rover and it invested in Slovakia before the referendum, they had some government money towards it. They expect pay in 2020 to be from €900 a month, less than U.K. minimum wage, with €1800 as top salary to the workers.
> 
> Forgive my cynicism, but before the referendum they were already moving Land Rover production to Slovakia.
> 
> I admit to being a bit on my own over this, but I think it's a good thing that companies are moving to the workforces, allowing communities to thrive, instead of young workers abandoning their homelands for work, leaving crumbling, deserted towns and/or families behind. It's good for the poorer economies of Europe and beyond.
> 
> We need better examples than diesel cars and companies that were already moving, if we want to persuade people that too many businesses will relocate and leave us without jobs that nothing else will replace though.


Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing against you @EllesI I don't know why I bother to reply on this thread as no one appears to read them!. PAGES ago I wrote about BMW moving their manufacturing to Debrecen Hungary which has sweet f.a to do with Brexit.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/31/bmw-to-build-1-billion-euro-car-factory-in-hungary.html

as did Daimler

https://www.daimler.com/career/about-us/locations/location-detail-page-5058.html

and Mercedes Benz

https://www.automotiveworld.com/new...ests-one-billion-euros-new-car-plant-hungary/

and Audi

https://www.audi.com/en/company/profile/locations/hungary.html

and Suzuki

https://www.suzuki.hu/corporate/en/...uzuki-rolls-off-the-esztergom-production-line

It's cheaper to manufacture here and the government offers extremely favourable investment incentive and tax benefits to any company that wishes to move here.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.suzuki.hu/corporate/en/...uzuki-rolls-off-the-esztergom-production-line

*Hungary rolls out red carpet for German carmakers*

http://www.investhipa.hu/images/hipa_kiadvany_intro_manufacturing_web_201808.pdf

*General overview for investors in Hungary's Manufacturing Sector*
*WHY INVEST IN HUNGARY?
*


----------



## Arnie83

I'm sure there are other good business reasons for car companies warning about what's happening and what will happen, but I'm very sure that Brexit will be factored in to their thinking. Indeed we have plenty of warnings from them regarding what will happen in the case of a No Deal Brexit, which most certainly is all to do with Brexit!

But wasn't Brexit supposed to be *good* for the UK? I know it hasn't happened yet but is there any boost to the economy that can we thank Brexit for?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure there are other good business reasons for car companies warning about what's happening and what will happen, but I'm very sure that Brexit will be factored in to their thinking. Indeed we have plenty of warnings from them regarding what will happen in the case of a No Deal Brexit, which most certainly is all to do with Brexit!
> 
> But wasn't Brexit supposed to be *good* for the UK? I know it hasn't happened yet but is there any boost to the economy that can we thank Brexit for?


It wouldn't surprise me if any of them would relish at the loss of foreign firms such as Nissan.

I, for one, was sceptical about them opening a factory in the UK in the first place back in 1986. I would have preferred it to have been a plant producing true British cars that were still being manufactured at the time.

See, I can still shock people with some Patriotism!

In retrospect, with successive governments making such a mess of the British car industry with its eventual demise, the plant would have already closed probably.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So who said they will expand their production because of Brexit?

Dyson???


----------



## Elles

Yes, the fruit ripening company who recently invested 3bn . They don’t seem to think there’ll be a shortage of fruit for them to ripen and distribute across the U.K. whether it has anything to do with Brexit, I don’t know for sure, but they’re expecting to ripen fruit direct for the U.K. market, instead of it going via Rotterdam ripening after brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Nothing against you @EllesI I don't know why I bother to reply on this thread as no one appears to read them!. PAGES ago I wrote about BMW moving their manufacturing to Debrecen Hungary which has sweet f.a to do with Brexit.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/31/bmw-to-build-1-billion-euro-car-factory-in-hungary.html
> 
> as did Daimler
> 
> https://www.daimler.com/career/about-us/locations/location-detail-page-5058.html
> 
> and Mercedes Benz
> 
> https://www.automotiveworld.com/new...ests-one-billion-euros-new-car-plant-hungary/
> 
> and Audi
> 
> https://www.audi.com/en/company/profile/locations/hungary.html
> 
> and Suzuki
> 
> https://www.suzuki.hu/corporate/en/...uzuki-rolls-off-the-esztergom-production-line
> 
> It's cheaper to manufacture here and the government offers extremely favourable investment incentive and tax benefits to any company that wishes to move here.


Personally I don't think I've seen anyone rationally claim that Brexit is the _only_ reason some firms are investing less in the UK or transferring parts of their business abroad, but I don't think that means we can rule out Brexit as as a strong _influence _in many of those decisions. Uncertainty is bad for business, and after 22 months (most of which have been spent reassuring businesses they don't need to worry about trading difficulties, and certainly not a no deal scenario) no-one has a clue what is going on or whether there will be a deal at all, let alone whether particularly critical aspects such as just-in-time component delivery will be able to function.

About the only thing that IS certain is that in many instances it's now way too late to develop and/or implement comprehensive contingency plans based on actual knowledge of what Brexit will look like. I'm sure many will blame employers for that, but the reality is you can only plan ahead based on probablilities of certainty, and we still don't have any of those. So what is a company to do - spend large chunks of money on preparations it may never need (see the old 'should we buy snowploughs for London' debate), or sit tight, make what reasonable preparations you can, and hope the government aren't crazy enough to go the No Deal route?

After Brexit may be another matter, of course. Like Arnie, I'd expect it to be more a gradual draining away of industry rather than a mass exodus, but I wouldn't been surprised to see a few sudden casualties.


----------



## Elles

I did say a bit on my own, which means not entirely.  @Magyarmum


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure there are other good business reasons for car companies warning about what's happening and what will happen, but I'm very sure that Brexit will be factored in to their thinking. Indeed we have plenty of warnings from them regarding what will happen in the case of a No Deal Brexit, which most certainly is all to do with Brexit!
> 
> But wasn't Brexit supposed to be *good* for the UK? I know it hasn't happened yet but is there any boost to the economy that can we thank Brexit for?


Like you said in your post 'no deal Brexit' which then changed to just 'Brexit'. I'm not an expert, but I would guess that some kind of trade deal with the rest of Europe would be more beneficial than none at all.


----------



## Elles

Farmers looking for post Brexit opportunities and making use of the increased interest in vegan/vegetarian/whole food locally sourced.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/grow-your-own-quinoa-super-crop

It's not like anything good, brexit related or not, is all over the news is it. I only know some food related stuff because I'm interested in where my food comes from.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Like you said in your post 'no deal Brexit' which then changed to just 'Brexit'. I'm not an expert, but I would guess that some kind of trade deal with the rest of Europe would be more beneficial than none at all.


A trade deal with the EU is less bad than leaving without one. It isn't better than staying in.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-faroe-islands-sign-trade-continuity-agreement

*UK and Faroe Islands sign trade continuity agreement*


----------



## Arnie83

For info ...

*The real reasons Nissan pulled its investment*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47115753

To precis:

1) Diesel sales are falling

2) the EU - Japan trade deal means the UK route into the market is not as important, with tariffs tapering to zero over 10 years. After Brexit it may even be that tariffs on UK car exports are lower than on Japanese ones.

3) Business are worried about losing current deals via the EU. E.g. the trade deal between EU - South Korea 55% of components must come from the EU. Post Brexit we won't have that and will have to renegotiate the trade deal.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-faroe-islands-sign-trade-continuity-agreement
> 
> *UK and Faroe Islands sign trade continuity agreement*


I 'Liked' this because you liked it when I posted it yesterday, and it seemed only fair. 



Arnie83 said:


> Well this is a weight off my mind ...
> 
> *UK and Faroe Islands sign trade continuity agreement*
> 
> A trade continuity agreement will see British businesses and consumers benefitting from continued trade with the Faroe Islands after we leave the European Union. ​
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-faroe-islands-sign-trade-continuity-agreement
> 
> Phew!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I 'Liked' this because you liked it when I posted it yesterday, and it seemed only fair.


Oh dear! I'm guilty of doing exactly what I've been complaining about other people doing = not reading all the threads.

Better keep my big mouth shut from now on!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> For info ...
> 
> *The real reasons Nissan pulled its investment*
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47115753
> 
> To precis:
> 
> 1) Diesel sales are falling
> 
> 2) the EU - Japan trade deal means the UK route into the market is not as important, with tariffs tapering to zero over 10 years. After Brexit it may even be that tariffs on UK car exports are lower than on Japanese ones.
> 
> 3) Business are worried about losing current deals via the EU. E.g. the trade deal between EU - South Korea 55% of components must come from the EU. Post Brexit we won't have that and will have to renegotiate the trade deal.


And some trust this shambles of a government in negotiating superior trade deals than within the EU.:Hilarious

I hear Nissan were bribed with the offer of £61m of taxpayers' money if they produced their diesel model in the UK.

With "Deals" like this the UK will soon be bankrupt.

And yes, someone interviewed on BBC Radio Newcastle earlier dismissed this as scaremongering...


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Oh dear! I'm guilty of doing exactly what I've been complaining about other people doing = not reading all the threads.
> 
> Better keep my big mouth shut from now on!


No don't do that! You add way too much to the thread to be silenced!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Oh dear! I'm guilty of doing exactly what I've been complaining about other people doing = not reading all the threads.
> 
> *Better keep my big mouth shut from now on!*


Oh come on, you know that's never going happen


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Oh dear! I'm guilty of doing exactly what I've been complaining about other people doing = not reading all the threads.
> 
> Better keep my big mouth shut from now on!


 Its easily done.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Oh come on, you know that's never going happen


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Oh come on, you know that's never going happen


I suppose not no matter how hard I try!


----------



## Magyarmum

In Euronews tonight.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/04...rom-brexit-fallout-with-91-million-of-support

*UK promised to protect Nissan from Brexit fallout with €91 million of support*

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/04...lout-with-91-million-of-support#spotim-widget


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> It is also a fact that ''hate crimes'' against immigrants were a reaction to the terror attacks which took place and little or nothing to do with Brexit.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2195655847161698&id=118077678252869

Great speech by Anna Soubry here.

Many voted Leave because they hate immigrants full stop. The "British" attitude towards Polish people for example was negative from the outset.

I mean, how many Polish people have commenced acts of terrorism in the UK and elsewhere?

And black people the National Front and BNP targeted in the '70s onwards for that matter?

And, I've heard this from the mouths of people myself, "They come over here, taking our jobs".

I think the overall attitude of most " British" people is, their intolerance of people not like themselves. There's also a regional element to this.

I've experienced this myself when I was "accused" of being Irish when the IRA were active...

The EU referendum focused primarily on scapegoating immigrants. Many voted leave believing all none British will be deported, not forgetting the entire population of Turkey "invading" the UK if you vote Remain...

One cretin, sorry but he was, told me Brexit will result in the expulsion of none Christian people with their churches closed down.

Of course the UK isn't alone in this sort of attitude, but having voted for Brexit it's shown itself up to the rest of the world.

What a ghastly backward place this is.

No wonder I've lost all respect for "Britain".

It isn't "my," country anymore.


----------



## KittenKong

Dear God, this was 41 years ago.
Nothing's changed...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=741491412890558&id=100865096953196


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Dear God, this was 41 years ago.
> Nothing's changed...
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=741491412890558&id=100865096953196
> 
> View attachment 392101


What has this got to do with Brexit??

Are you saying that decimalisation was one of the reasons people voted to leave?


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump-

Monday 4 February 2019 by Alf Alderson*

*Queen to avoid Brexit chaos by applying for German passport*

https://2w6kxc22rrr9mabqt1mglgait6-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Queen-Brexit-Cluster****-small.jpg
*The Queen will be applying for a German passport in order to avoid the potentially harmful consequences of a 'no-deal' Brexit according to a Buckingham Palace spokesman.*

Palace press attaché Brigadier Tarquin Ftang-Ftang Ponsonby-Psmythe (the second 'P' is silent) said that "As one knows, the Queen has German ancestry, which allows her to apply for a German passport so that she may remain an EU citizen.

"She is particularly concerned that a 'no-deal' Brexit will not allow her to park the royal yacht 'HMS Yachty McYachtface' at her favourite European watering holes such as St. Tropez and Rotterdam.

"By obtaining a German passport the Queen will be able to continue to holiday in style at the British tax-payers expense, without having to queue or apply for any visas.

Upon gaining German citizenship Her Majesty also intends to become Empress of Germany and march upon Britain to force the country back into the EU," concluded the Brigadier, before adding, "The second 'P' is silent by the way. Don't forget that bit."

The Queen's husband Prince Philip will at the same time be applying for a Greek passport thanks to his Greek ancestry, after which he intends to set up a kebab stall on Levkas.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> What has this got to do with Brexit??
> 
> Are you saying that decimalisation was one of the reasons people voted to leave?


I would wager a large amount of money that it featured in the thinking of a few leave voters somewhere, under the general heading of interference and 'telling us what to do'.

Along with Abu Hamza's delayed extradition, 'pink' passports, and my elderly friend's assertion that we can't transport ice-cream in non-refrigerated vehicles!


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> it featured in the thinking of a few leave voters


Probably; and possibly many voters (both for and against) didn't think at all. I asked my 80+-year-old neighbour what made him vote ''remain'' and he said he didn't really know, ''hadn't really thought about it'', but that he possibly thought he was too old for change. Of course we were later told that the ones who voted out tended to be old, ill-educated and working class . . . etc. etc.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I would wager a large amount of money that it featured in the thinking of a few leave voters somewhere, under the general heading of interference and 'telling us what to do'.


A few perhaps but it didnt seem to influence people at the time in 1975 else the Leave votes would have been a lot higher, so why would it now? 
Decimalisation was introduced in 1971 . Younger people adapted to it but older people found it hard. I welcomed it as it made working out the change at the till in Woolworths easier. The older people then wouldnt be alive now .


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I would wager a large amount of money that it featured in the thinking of a few leave voters somewhere, under the general heading of interference and 'telling us what to do'.


Got to be honest, I never even thought about the use of the metric system for our roads. But then again I am too young to think about 1975


----------



## rona

AlexPed2393 said:


> Got to be honest, I never even thought about the use of the metric system for our roads. But then again I am too young to think about 1975


Too be honest, we've all forgotten 1975, it's when the music turned to poo and it was followed by 1976, which is ingrained in everyones memory that lived through it


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> the use of the metric system for our roads.


At least we still drive on the left (most of us anyway).


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> A few perhaps but it didnt seem to influence people at the time in 1975 else the Leave votes would have been a lot higher, so why would it now?
> Decimalisation was introduced in 1971 . Younger people adapted to it but older people found it hard. I welcomed it as it made working out the change at the till in Woolworths easier. The older people then wouldnt be alive now .


I remember it from 1971 because t first I couldn't understand how to do the conversion from one to tother and had to ask my 7 year old son to help me! Oh the humiliation!

South Africa decimalised in 1961 and was fully metricated in 1967 so by the time we arrived in 1975 was well established (but @Calvine they still drive on the left), but because so many people remembered the "old way" it was still possible to buy, for example, for material in yards rather than metres.

I actually use both metric and imperial depending what I'm doing and I have this annoying habit of automatically converting kilometres into miles. For measuring and making things like curtains I find it easier to work in inches, but if I was working how much carpeting or tiles I need then it's metric. And when cooking I often use cups as my preferred form. Horses for courses!

As for who voted for what here is the Ipsos Mori Report as well as the report from the LSE

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum

SECTOR
*How Britain voted in the 2016 EU referendum*

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/

*Brexit was not the voice of the working class nor of the uneducated - it was of the squeezed middle*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I remember 1971 I'd just got married and got use to doing the weekly shop and they went decimal on me :Jawdrop talk about confusing I could have pulled my hair out.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> At least we still drive on the left (most of us anyway).


Yeah about that . It's on the cards and its going to be introduced over three years so we can get used to it .  ( to drive on the right , that is . )


----------



## kimthecat

On the BBC 2 politics just now , A young looking Corbyn saying about living under an EU Empire 
Blimey ! He's entitled to change his mind of course but why wont he come right out and say Yay or Nay to the EU?


----------



## Arnie83

*News Thump:*

*Brexiters excitedly repeating 'we survived The Blitz' reminded that many people didn't*









*Brexiters who repeatedly affirm that Britain will survive a no-deal Brexit because they survived The Blitz have been reminded that there were one or two casualties during that period in time.*

With the possibility of a no-deal Brexit looming and increasing fears over food and medicine supplies after March 29th, many Leave voters have taken to telling anyone who will listen that fears are unfounded because Britain survived the Blitz, and therefore the little matter of walking away from one of the largest trading unions in the world is no big deal.

Brexiter Simon Williams, who was born in 1958 and technically therefore didn't 'survive' either of the World Wars took to social to media, saying ,"We survived The Blitz, won two World Wars and beat that German lot once in a game of football.

"I was only eight at the time, and I was drunk when I was watching it so barely remember the game itself, but I'm told it was a complete drubbing of those continental bastards.

"A no-deal Brexit, like The Blitz, might cause a bit of disruption for the first week or so, but no-one will die, mark my words.

"Wait, what's that? Over forty thousand civilians died in the Blitz? But I thought we won the war? Those statistics are fake news, mate."

Historian and whingeing remoaner Christopher James told us, "Unfortunately, there is a trend of viewing historical conflicts through rose-tinted glasses, but sometimes the rose tint comes from blood splatters.

"I'm pretty sure those soldiers didn't fight and give their lives for peace in Europe so their nationalistic offspring could try and tear it all apart again."

https://newsthump.com/2019/02/04/br...ed-the-blitz-reminded-that-many-people-didnt/


----------



## Elles

Is anyone watching the Eu series? Yesterday's episode just looked like the privileged and powerful, with Germany in charge, playing around with numbers we can't even begin to imagine in order to protect the privileged and powerful, while the common people suffered and starved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002fgg

The greatest advertisement for leave is the Eu itself, not a few dollars spent on Facebook.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> *News Thump:*
> 
> *Brexiters excitedly repeating 'we survived The Blitz' reminded that many people didn't*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Brexiters who repeatedly affirm that Britain will survive a no-deal Brexit because they survived The Blitz have been reminded that there were one or two casualties during that period in time.*
> 
> With the possibility of a no-deal Brexit looming and increasing fears over food and medicine supplies after March 29th, many Leave voters have taken to telling anyone who will listen that fears are unfounded because Britain survived the Blitz, and therefore the little matter of walking away from one of the largest trading unions in the world is no big deal.
> 
> Brexiter Simon Williams, who was born in 1958 and technically therefore didn't 'survive' either of the World Wars took to social to media, saying ,"We survived The Blitz, won two World Wars and beat that German lot once in a game of football.
> 
> "I was only eight at the time, and I was drunk when I was watching it so barely remember the game itself, but I'm told it was a complete drubbing of those continental bastards.
> 
> "A no-deal Brexit, like The Blitz, might cause a bit of disruption for the first week or so, but no-one will die, mark my words.
> 
> "Wait, what's that? Over forty thousand civilians died in the Blitz? But I thought we won the war? Those statistics are fake news, mate."
> 
> Historian and whingeing remoaner Christopher James told us, "Unfortunately, there is a trend of viewing historical conflicts through rose-tinted glasses, but sometimes the rose tint comes from blood splatters.
> 
> "I'm pretty sure those soldiers didn't fight and give their lives for peace in Europe so their nationalistic offspring could try and tear it all apart again."
> 
> https://newsthump.com/2019/02/04/br...ed-the-blitz-reminded-that-many-people-didnt/


I learnt an interesting phrase this week which aptly describes the approach of a number of more ardent Brexiteer camps - "Toxic Positivity"


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> So who said they will expand their production because of Brexit?
> 
> Dyson???


:Hilarious

Sorry, couldn't resist!


----------



## KittenKong

May insists NI doesn't need the EU nor the ROI government to avoid a hard border. It needs her apparently.

"I won't let it happen".

Who the bloody hell does she think she is?!!!!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> May insists NI doesn't need the EU nor the ROI government to avoid a hard border. It needs her apparently.
> 
> "I won't let it happen".
> 
> Who the bloody hell does she think she is?!!!!


She thinks she's a cross between Boudicca and Thatcher.


----------



## cheekyscrip

If people voted for more jobs, more money in the budget for schools and hospitals, stronger and united country then they did not vote for That Mess.

If people voted for Power for ERG and corporations taking control, self serving morons in power - their wish will be granted.

If people voted for diminished, impoverished Britain, at odds with the neighbours then this is exactly what you will get.


I don’t blame people who voted to Leave , they were simply missold.

As if you bought a dress online and it looked nothing like what you ordered.
No unicorns but asses, no rainbows but pouring rain.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> As if you bought a dress online and it looked nothing like what you ordered.
> No unicorns but asses, no rainbows but pouring rain.


If you joined a club that changed management and became a club you no longer wanted to be a member of, you'd pay any penalties you were legally obliged to and leave it.

I don't blame Eu supporters for wanting to stay in, they were sold a dream by the wealthy and leaving it is scary, but at the end of the day it's up to our own government to protect and support us using our tax money, not the bureaucracy in Brussels and many think we aren't getting enough bang for our buck, or enough say to make it worth staying in.

I love Europe, can't abide the Eu. If other countries and businesses can trade quite happily with Europe and the rest of the world without being in the Eu and still do its people proud, so can we.

I refuse to be frightened of a no deal brexit, if it happens, it happens.


----------



## Jonescat

FWIW the company I work for has just invoked its no-deal-Brexit plan. A shedload of work for load of companies in the UK that could have been avoided with a halfway competent Government. A hell of a lot of extra and unnecessary cost for everyone. If only people would step away from leave/stay and look at the effort required to make sure most things and most people can carry on working.


----------



## KittenKong

Hard borders, stockpiling, martial law and rationing...

Now, no internet!

Is the author of this letter for real?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Hard borders, stockpiling, martial law and rationing...
> 
> Now,* no internet!*
> 
> Is the author of this letter for real?
> 
> View attachment 392218


No he's quite right, there were no computers in the 1940's. The first commercial computer was the Ferranti at Manchester University in 1951.

https://www.bcs.org/content/conWebDoc/24070

Internet wasn't introduce into the UK until 1992!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_Kingdom

I can only assume you must be around 30 years old or younger and have therefore never know a life without TV, computers or internet??????


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I can only assume you must be around 30 years old or younger and have therefore never know a life without TV, computers or internet??????


I assume more that the majority of people who DO remember those days don't wish to return to them...  My parents both remember rationing.

My dad once wrote a (humerous) poem about 'The Good Old Days' in which a grandad explains to his grandson what life was like in his youth after being questioned about why he and grandma were always saying life wasn't like the good old days any more - and his grandson came to the conclusion he was glad he lived now!


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I assume more that the majority of people who DO remember those days don't wish to return to them...  My parents both remember rationing.
> 
> My dad once wrote a (humerous) poem about 'The Good Old Days' in which a grandad explains to his grandson what life was like in his youth after being questioned about why he and grandma were always saying life wasn't like the good old days any more - and his grandson came to the conclusion he was glad he lived now!


I lived through all but one day of the war and can remember from the age of 2 years old. The first year of my life was spent in a wicker clothes basket under the kitchen table in case we were bombed!

I remember rationing and not having sweets, chocolate, cake or biscuits. Soldiers with guns, the gliders going over our house in preparation for the Normandy landings and finding thousands of strips of tinfoil in my grandfather's fields and only learning years later they were dropped to block radar.

And of course no central heating, ice on the inside of the windows in winter, no washing machines only a copper, and having to cook on a coal stove.

No I wouldn't like to go back to those days!


----------



## Arnie83

Inspired by Mr Tusk ...










:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Inspired by Mr Tusk ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :Hilarious


At least hell has thought ahead and has a contingency plan to cater for the self serving politicians who got us into this mess.

https://newsthump.com/2019/02/06/i-...-spend-eternity-with-brexiters-insists-satan/
I thought Hell's response was pretty darn good...


----------



## cheekyscrip

http://newsthump.com/2018/09/27/jac...ntry-well-stocked-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit/


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Wednesday 6 February 2019 by Chris Hoar*

*"I admire them, but I wouldn't want to spend eternity with Brexiters" insists Satan*









*Following European Council President Donald Tusks comment that there is a "special place in hell" for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it safely", Satan has responded by saying they are not welcome in Hell.*

Speaking to reporters Satan AKA Beelzebub said, "I have been following Brexit with interest and have been particularly surprised and intrigued at how seemingly idiotic and devious individuals have been able to start the process of national destruction in the UK.

"It is a process quite close to my black heart, however, I can assure you the notion that these individuals will eventually be welcomed with open arms into my domain is quite wrong.

"We run a tight ship here in Hell and a lot of the success of what we do is based on the efficiency gained from well laid out rules and procedures. I do admire them, but I really don't want those Brexit campaigners coming down here screwing it all up.

"It may be that a new circle of Hell is created especially for them to inhabit, sharing the customs of the current 9 circles union, but _outside_ of it. I am not sure how this is going to be possible but I am hoping to learn some lessons from Jeremy Corbyn.

"However, there is a small issue in that somehow the border between the 9 circles and this new one will need to be managed, but as far as I am aware there is no technological solution available."


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> *News Thump
> 
> Wednesday 6 February 2019 by Chris Hoar*
> 
> *"I admire them, but I wouldn't want to spend eternity with Brexiters" insists Satan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Following European Council President Donald Tusks comment that there is a "special place in hell" for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it safely", Satan has responded by saying they are not welcome in Hell.*
> 
> Speaking to reporters Satan AKA Beelzebub said, "I have been following Brexit with interest and have been particularly surprised and intrigued at how seemingly idiotic and devious individuals have been able to start the process of national destruction in the UK.
> 
> "It is a process quite close to my black heart, however, I can assure you the notion that these individuals will eventually be welcomed with open arms into my domain is quite wrong.
> 
> "We run a tight ship here in Hell and a lot of the success of what we do is based on the efficiency gained from well laid out rules and procedures. I do admire them, but I really don't want those Brexit campaigners coming down here screwing it all up.
> 
> "It may be that a new circle of Hell is created especially for them to inhabit, sharing the customs of the current 9 circles union, but _outside_ of it. I am not sure how this is going to be possible but I am hoping to learn some lessons from Jeremy Corbyn.
> 
> "However, there is a small issue in that somehow the border between the 9 circles and this new one will need to be managed, but as far as I am aware there is no technological solution available."


Same link I posted above...


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Same link I posted above...


Sorry didn't see it!

If you want to post the entire article instead of just the link, all you have to do is copy it and then paste on the thread.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Sorry didn't see it!
> 
> If you want to post the entire article instead of just the link, all you have to do is copy it and then paste on the thread.


But some nincompoops complained that it plagiarism and GDPR will get you!!!!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> http://newsthump.com/2018/09/27/jac...ntry-well-stocked-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit/


There's more truth in Newsthump as in the mainstream media nowadays...


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> But some nincompoops complained that it plagiarism and GDPR will get you!!!!


I'm probably one of, if not the nincompoop to whom you refer. Only on articles that were behind a paywall though. 

It doesn't seem right to me to copy articles that we are supposed to pay for and publish them on petforums.

I don't like the long copy/pastes of article after article anyway. I can read the papers at source if I want to bother, so I put the ones who post them on ignore a while ago to save all the scrolling past it. Seemed the easiest option.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I'm probably one of, if not the nincompoop to whom you refer. Only on articles that were behind a paywall though.
> 
> It doesn't seem right to me to copy articles that we are supposed to pay for and publish them on petforums.
> 
> I don't like the long copy/pastes of article after article anyway. I can read the papers at source if I want to bother, so I put the ones who post them on ignore a while ago to save all the scrolling past it. Seemed the easiest option.


News Thump and OMFG Trump are one of the few things I copy and paste because they're only "published" online and are free. I don't know but would imagine if they want their articles to be read and shared by as many people as possible, they would have no objection to them being copied and pasted

I don't know about the UK but even if someone posts an article which might not be behind a paywall for them it still is for me - same with many memes.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Arnie83

Farage (7 times rejected in Westminster election) calls Tusk (twice elected by a double majority of the Council of Europe) an unelected, arrogant bully.

Marvellous stuff.


----------



## Arnie83

It takes about 6 weeks to float ships from the UK to our more distant export markets.

Next week, some ships will therefore leave under the rules of trade deals agreed via the EU that might not be in force by the time they arrive. If there is No Deal, we will be trading on WTO terms. 

There isn't, therefore, a lot of time for May, and Parliament, to agree a deal. March 29th is not the deadline date for companies whose products are about to be loaded on ships with an upcoming departure date. They need to know NOW.


----------



## kimthecat

I see Tusks point of view but to say that on a national platform is sh*t stirring .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I see Tusks point of view but to say that on a national platform is sh*t stirring .


It's immature - like bullying and name-calling in schools; surprised he can get away with it.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I see Tusks point of view but to say that on a national platform is sh*t stirring .


I think he was very well aware of that. It was an expression of frustration that after 2 years of tortured negotiation during which the EU was repeatedly asking what, exactly, the UK wanted, our Prime Minister signed off on the Withdrawal Agreement last November, everyone breathes a sigh of relief, and now she goes back and wants to change it!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I see Tusks point of view but to say that on a national platform is sh*t stirring .


No, I agree with him, we have done nothing but mess round for over two years, we say we want to leave but didn't come up with a deal until the 11th hour and we have got that wrong, no wonder his getting sick to death with all the floundering around from our government. I could have said a lot worse.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

There was no reason for a senior politician on the world stage to condemn a group of people with a different political view from his to hell. It's childish, immature and quite frankly removes a lot of his credibility.
Also if this was said by a Brexiteer about someone who voted remain they would be burned at the stake (then sent to hell) :Angelic


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> No, I agree with him, we have done nothing but mess round for over two years, we say we want to leave but didn't come up with a deal until the 11th hour and we have got that wrong, no wonder his getting sick to death with all the floundering around from our government. I could have said a lot worse.


I agree with him but that not the point . How does it help the situation?
Its not diplomatic to say stuff like that just before negotiations are to start and embarrass a leader of another country.
Trump gets crap for doing that . Tusk is a self serving, publicity seeking w****r !


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> There was no reason for a senior politician on the world stage to condemn a group of people with a different political view from his to hell. It's childish, immature and quite frankly removes a lot of his credibility.
> Also if this was said by a Brexiteer about someone who voted remain they would be burned at the stake (then sent to hell) :Angelic[/Q QUOTE]
> 
> He didn't condemn for their option, just that they wanted to leave but had know idea of what they wanted.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Well he did really, because it wasn't the people who voted to leave's job to create a plan, that is the job of the serving PM and those she put in charge of Brexit negotiations, who were all wanting to remain in the EU anyway.

@happypaws sorry the quote thing didn't work


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Well he did really, because it wasn't the people who voted to leave's job to create a plan, that is the job of the serving PM and those she put in charge of Brexit negotiations, who were all wanting to remain in the EU anyway.


Tusk did not condemn the people who voted Leave.

He criticised - colourfully but specifically - those who promoted Leave with no plan as to how to deliver it with particular reference to the Irish border problem. The implication - in fact the statement in much of the RWP and by the more strident representatives of the Leave side, such as Farage, Bone, the DUP etc - that he was insulting 17.4 million people is a predictable device that seeks to play on the tribal nature of the Brexit 'debate'. A criticism of one or some is immediately extrapolated into something he didn't say and quoted as an attack on all Leavers.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> There was no reason for a senior politician on the world stage to condemn a group of people with a different political view from his to hell. It's childish, immature and quite frankly removes a lot of his credibility.
> Also if this was said by a Brexiteer about someone who voted remain they would be burned at the stake (then sent to hell) :Angelic


Given the schoolyard style politics Our Glorious Leaders in the UK have been indulging in for the past two years (both internally and internationally), I can quite understand frustrations building to the point of being a bit undiplomatic.

Mind you, as I read it he wasn't saying people didn't have a right to a different opinion. More that those specific individuals who championed Leave without even a back-of-a-***-packet plan for achieving a workable, orderly exit have a LOT to answer for...


----------



## Elles

He also said there’s only 50 days to go and no deal is currently the only option he can see. I think the Eu will be glad to see us go, then the Eu, Germany and France can plough ahead with their plans for a superstate unhindered.

Religion would be better kept out of politics. What happens today is more important than some imaginary afterlife, but people are so hung up on what he knew would be a controversial statement, that they’re missing the actual message.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Tusk did not condemn the people who voted Leave.
> 
> He criticised - colourfully but specifically - those who promoted Leave with no plan as to how to deliver it with particular reference to the Irish border problem. The implication - in fact the statement in much of the RWP and by the more strident representatives of the Leave side, such as Farage, Bone, the DUP etc - that he was insulting 17.4 million people is a predictable device that seeks to play on the tribal nature of the Brexit 'debate'. A criticism of one or some is immediately extrapolated into something he didn't say and quoted as an attack on all Leavers.


[/QUOTE]

And when have these people had a chance to negotiate a deal with the Eu? They didn't want a close relationship and deal like TM is trying to negotiate, they wanted what was called a hard brexit. How could they know what deal might be available until they'd got to the negotiating table? It's a silly distract and trying to be funny at our expense.


----------



## Magyarmum

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-19-903_en.htm

European Commission - Statement
*Joint statement on behalf of President Juncker and Prime Minister May*


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> And when have these people had a chance to negotiate a deal with the Eu? They didn't want a close relationship and deal like TM is trying to negotiate, they wanted what was called a hard brexit. How could they know what deal might be available until they'd got to the negotiating table? It's a silly distract and trying to be funny at our expense.


Well, the sensible thing to have done would be to do what anyone who is used to negotiating big deals does and lay the groundwork BEFORE kicking off any time-limited element of the negotiation process...

I'm also not sure what benefit including those who didn't want a deal in negotiations to secure a deal would have realised, aside from yet more internal fisticuffs


----------



## Arnie83

And when have these people had a chance to negotiate a deal with the Eu? They didn't want a close relationship and deal like TM is trying to negotiate, they wanted what was called a hard brexit. How could they know what deal might be available until they'd got to the negotiating table? It's a silly distract and trying to be funny at our expense.[/QUOTE]

He was referring to the Irish border problem. They had no idea when they pushed Brexit, and they have no idea now. They keep quoting some fanciful technological solution which doesn't exist and blaming the EU for not implementing it!


----------



## Elles

Yep, the blame for any mess we get into goes right back to before the referendum and all the idiots in a position to vote in favour of us having a one, because they knew we’d vote remain and then when we thought they couldn’t be more stupid, voted for article 50 when they didn’t want to leave and had no clue what they were going to do with it.

The hardcore brexiteers may have wanted to see what they could get out of the Eu to at least keep goods flowing and still wanted some kind of deal, they just weren’t concerned if they couldn’t get anything and we had to leave with no deal. So I think they would still have tried to negotiate something, unless they just left without the article 50.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> He was referring to the Irish border problem. They had no idea when they pushed Brexit, and they have no idea now. They keep quoting some fanciful technological solution which doesn't exist and blaming the EU for not implementing it!


It is the Eu who want a border. Ironically we left to get control of our borders, but when comes to Ireland we don't want one lol.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It is the Eu who want a border. Ironically we left to get control of our borders, but when comes to Ireland we don't want one lol.


A hard border is a legal requirement of the WTO in the absence of a free movement agreement, I believe...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> A hard border is a legal requirement of the WTO in the absence of a free movement agreement, I believe...


This might help clarify the position ....

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com...o-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/

*Does the WTO require countries to control their borders?*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> This might help clarify the position ....
> 
> https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com...o-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/
> 
> *Does the WTO require countries to control their borders?*


Cheers, that explains it far better than I ever could  The 'Favoured Nation' element in particular is going to be one massive can of worms , that's for sure.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It is the Eu who want a border. Ironically we left to get control of our borders, but when comes to Ireland we don't want one lol.


The EU absolutely DON'T want a hard border, but to maintain the integrity of the single market, they are going to have to have one. Not only for the WTO MFN rules but because any divergence of goods standards, or regulations between countries on either side of the border would mean that EU regulations could no longer be applied.

Our upcoming chlorinated chicken could cross into the EU via NI and thence into the rest of the EU. Products with lower-standard, cheaper, non-EU-approved parts could do likewise, and be sold at greater profit inside the EU than in the UK. The latter would quickly become a very profitable earning opportunity with 300 unwatched and unmanned crossing points.

Re @Magyarmum 's link: I have read somewhere - an official site, not just somewhere on the web - that free trade areas must have adequate borders in order to qualify as such but I'm blowed if I can find the source again. And the author of the piece sounds like he should know!


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It is the Eu who want a border. Ironically we left to get control of our borders, but when comes to Ireland we don't want one lol.


Even if that was true the EU didn't want the UK to leave.

Who triggered Article 50?

A hard border will 100% the fault of Theresa May and her government.

But agreed it's a little hypocritical to campaign on, "Taking back control of our borders", yet not between NI and the ROI.

I can only guess the Brexidiots believed the ROI would be willing to leave with the rest of the UK and become part of the UK.

Or May's intention with her, " No borders of the past" sound bite suggests the opposite.

So the gullible will believe she tried her best to avoid one but the Nasty EU insisted on one.


----------



## Elles

I meant it more the other way around, irony. Like you know how long brexiteers have complained about the Eu open borders and wanted ours closed off, but then when it comes to Ireland the U.K. suddenly doesn’t want a border. It’s the Eu that has to have one. You guys have taken my flippant comment too seriously lol.

Whoosh?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I meant it more the other way around, irony. Like you know how long brexiteers have complained about the Eu open borders and wanted ours closed off, but then when it comes to Ireland the U.K. suddenly doesn't want a border. It's the Eu that has to have one. You guys have taken my flippant comment too seriously lol.
> 
> Whoosh?


Fair enough!

There is one point about the controlled border that we don't seem to hear much about, though, and that's on the subject of migration that so exercises the Farages of this world.

Why is no-one seemingly bothered about the non-Irish EU citizens who can waltz across the border into the UK without even having to slow down?


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> There were 43 fatal stabbings in London alone last month; the London Mayor says this is ''part and parcel of living in a large city''. I have not read of 43 attacks on immigrants. The stabbings were nothing to do with racial prejudice, nothing to do with xenophobia or hatred of immigrants as the attacks were mainly ''black on black'' and gang-related. Are you going to blame that on Brexit too? Anything else you can think of?


Like this brexit shambles, the tories are responsible the rise in knife crime. Tories have cut 21,000 front line police officers since 2012. And its an actual fact that since the brexit vote there has been a spike in race hate crimes. The leave campaign ran a populist & xenophobic campaign, politicians on the right consistently using minorities as scapegoats - it was pretty obvious to see racists would be emboldened.
















Calvine said:


> Some people posting on here think that they are. There were racists before Brexit and there will be still be afterwards. People talking about pogroms is just BS . . . tho' no-one else seemed to think it was a ridiculous comment. We have had posts about Nazis and fascists, but now pogroms. I despair; I truly do.


I haven't seen anyone suggest on here that all leave voters are racist - but that all racists voted to leave. Big difference. Of course there were racists before brexit, but the leave campaign, the hard right tories, the likes of Farage have emboldened them. You once argued that Farage wasnt a racist. Are you aware of his connections with the alt right? Do you know he addressed an AfD rally in Germany? The AfD are neo Nazis. Just look at the people who are behind brexit Calvine?. They are lowest of the low.



Magyarmum said:


> Two reports worth reading
> 
> https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/hatecrimethefactsbehindtheheadlines.pdf
> 
> http://www.irr.org.uk/app/uploads/2016/11/Racial-violence-and-the-Brexit-state-final.pdf
> 
> And here are the official crime statistics for the UK in 2018
> 
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingjune2018
> 
> Enjoy!


One report is worth reading. But Civitas is yet another dodgy right wing think tank operating out of 55 Tufton street MM:Facepalm As I've tried to explain before,( only to have it dismissed as a conspiracy theory even though the evidence is irrefutible), Tufton street is the home of right wing extremists, climate change deniers with connection to America's dangerous libertarian groups. They are pushing for brexit because deregulation is their agenda. These dangerous people behind the dodgy right wing think tanks are disaster capitalists. Anyone who has read Naomi Kleins The Shock Doctrine, will be extremely worried how brexit is panning out.
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/11/18...libertarians-and-fossil-fuel-lobbyists-brexit

https://www.desmog.co.uk/55-tufton-street



















Your second link is a trustworthy source & supports Cheekys argument not yours 

conclusion.

_For if this report augurs anything it is the danger of what a nativist Brexit state will look like. 'Brexit means Brexit' is already being translated for BAME and migrant communities into 'Brexit means racism' - not just on the ground but also in the repressive proposals already emanating from politicians and government departments in October 2016 (see figure 9). A nation state, which is (in the globalised world of the twenty-first century) defined specifically to divide those who rightfully belong from those who do not, will by definition enshrine racism. The discourse we can expect in the run-up to the triggering of Article 50 could be even more pernicious than that of the referendum debate. The referendum may be over but the 'vote' as to what kind of multicultural society we remain is in the making._



Calvine said:


> It is also a fact that ''hate crimes'' against immigrants were a reaction to the terror attacks which took place and little or nothing to do with Brexit.


The hate mongers who whipped up all the anti-foreigner rhetoric in the referendum campaign are the same people who use terrorist attacks to stoke fear & hatred of 'foreigners'. How can people not see this?


Magyarmum said:


> Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Nothing against you @EllesI I don't know why I bother to reply on this thread as no one appears to read them!. PAGES ago I wrote about BMW moving their manufacturing to Debrecen Hungary which has sweet f.a to do with Brexit.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/31/bmw-to-build-1-billion-euro-car-factory-in-hungary.html
> 
> as did Daimler
> 
> https://www.daimler.com/career/about-us/locations/location-detail-page-5058.html
> 
> and Mercedes Benz
> 
> https://www.automotiveworld.com/new...ests-one-billion-euros-new-car-plant-hungary/
> 
> and Audi
> 
> https://www.audi.com/en/company/profile/locations/hungary.html
> 
> and Suzuki
> 
> https://www.suzuki.hu/corporate/en/...uzuki-rolls-off-the-esztergom-production-line
> 
> It's cheaper to manufacture here and the government offers extremely favourable investment incentive and tax benefits to any company that wishes to move here.





Elles said:


> Like you said in your post 'no deal Brexit' which then changed to just 'Brexit'. I'm not an expert, but I would guess that some kind of trade deal with the rest of Europe would be more beneficial than none at all.





Magyarmum said:


> In Euronews tonight.
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/04...rom-brexit-fallout-with-91-million-of-support
> 
> *UK promised to protect Nissan from Brexit fallout with €91 million of support*


The car industry, like many other industries are 'just in time' producers - this means they depend upon the Single Market & Customs Union which we are LEAVING. Its fascinating that so many leave supporters still can't seem to be able grasp this crucial fact..

Are you wearing these?










Reaction to Mays Nissan bribe.

*May's bribes: -

£1.5 Billion to the DUP - 
£60 million to Nissan - 
Cash for Labour votes - 
Knighthoods for ERG votes

This isn't Govt, this is organised crime.

*
_Oh how we'll laugh at the fuss about the Nissan £60 million when that £350 million-a-week Brexit bonanza arrives_



Calvine said:


> Probably; and possibly many voters (both for and against) didn't think at all. I asked my 80+-year-old neighbour what made him vote ''remain'' and he said he didn't really know, ''hadn't really thought about it'', but that he possibly thought he was too old for change. Of course we were later told that the ones who voted out tended to be old, ill-educated and working class . . . etc. etc.


These are the demographics for leave & remain.









Maybe your neighbour was content & didn't want to gamble with all our futures?

*James O'Brien's Powerful Response To Brexiter Who Asked Why He Voted Remain*


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> There is one point about the controlled border that we don't seem to hear much about, though, and that's on the subject of migration that so exercises the Farages of this world.
> 
> Why is no-one seemingly bothered about the non-Irish EU citizens who can waltz across the border into the UK without even having to slow down?


Exactly!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I'm probably one of, if not the nincompoop to whom you refer. Only on articles that were behind a paywall though.
> 
> It doesn't seem right to me to copy articles that we are supposed to pay for and publish them on petforums.
> 
> I don't like the long copy/pastes of article after article anyway. I can read the papers at source if I want to bother, so I put the ones who post them on ignore a while ago to save all the scrolling past it. Seemed the easiest option.


Banish the thought!!!
Definitely not !!!
I have seen you in RL my dear!!!


----------



## noushka05

Sorry if this has already been posted as I'm still catching up.


----------



## Snoringbear

An interesting point https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rters-risk-being-locked-out-of-world-harbours


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Sorry if this has already been posted as I'm still catching up.


God, he turns my stomach.


----------



## Eeyore

KittenKong said:


> Hard borders, stockpiling, martial law and rationing...
> 
> Now, no internet!
> 
> Is the author of this letter for real?
> 
> View attachment 392218


If there's any truth in the talk of stockpiling and rationing food after brexit, I think you'll always be able to rely on the red cross to help you through the most difficult times. Also I think the people who are used to three square meals every day, should ask advice from the poor and homeless people to see how they survive on a day to day basis.
Honestly speaking, this Brexit chaos is a pain in the world's bum and all because Britain wants its empire back. The world desperately needs an enema and I think if you held another referendum on the issue, I think you'd know where the majority would like to stick the tube.


----------



## KittenKong

Brexiters, an image of your Strong and Stable leader who is delivering the Brexit you voted for, yet also vows she will not let the Irish Border happen.

That's as plausible as me going on a strict calorie controlled diet yet eating take-aways every night...


----------



## noushka05

*Have I Got News For You*‏:
*After Donald Tusk asks "what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit", the London Palladium has the answer:*
_
_


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Brexiters, an image of your Strong and Stable leader who is delivering the Brexit you voted for, yet also vows she will not let the Irish Border happen.
> 
> That's as plausible as me going on a strict calorie controlled diet yet eating take-aways every night...
> 
> View attachment 392472


David Schneiders done a handy guide to Mays backstop KK

*A handy guide to Theresa May and the backstop:

Are you Northern Irish but not the DUP? > the backstop stays

Are you a Brexiter/the DUP? > the backstop goes

Are you the EU? > the backstop needs a tiny tweak

Please only pay attention to your category and ignore all others.

..............*


----------



## noushka05

Eeyore said:


> If there's any truth in the talk of stockpiling and rationing food after brexit, I think you'll always be able to rely on the red cross to help you through the most difficult times. Also I think the people who are used to three square meals every day, should ask advice from the poor and homeless people to see how they survive on a day to day basis.
> Honestly speaking, this Brexit chaos is a pain in the world's bum and all because Britain wants its empire back. The world desperately needs an enema and I think if you held another referendum on the issue, I think you'd know where the majority would like to stick the tube.


I know where I'd like to stick the tube! Straight up Farage's back side! (includes Cameron, May & the rest of her rabid right wing too!)


----------



## noushka05

VERY interesting thread about this duplicitous liar!










1*/ We need to talk about Daniel Kawczynski MP & Gold Speculation. His comments & seemingly "pointless" lies about #brexit has provoked confusion among leavers & remainers alike. But once you find out who's he really working for, his actions make perfect sense...

2/ Kawczynski has until recently been a pretty mainstream Tory MP, even liberal on some issues given his personal background. Yet since the referendum has not just been hard #Brexit supporter - his views have increasingly been seen as slightly beyond the pale even for brexit...

3/ One thing that has changed is Kawczynski's growing relationship with Banks & Mogg and his curious relationship with American billionaire Thomas Kaplan..... From that time on circa 2015 Kawczynski public pronouncements began to change

4/ Kawczynski became ever more proSaudia Arabia & his comments on Europe in general began to veer even beyond Mogg's. German reperations for example. Within a year of #brexit Kawczynski, with no experience in minerals, revealed he had a new £6,000 a month salary paid by..Kaplan.

5/ Quite why a former entertainment account manager turned MP would command a salary of £6,000 a month to gve advice on gold and other resources payable by a billionaire Gold & oil investor has never been explained...

Except...

6/ .....Except, that around the same time as this was happening Aron Banks was also getting into the same diamonds & gold business with the Russians. Aron Banks and Daniel Kawczynski are now very tight colleagues in #Brexit disinformation media....but why the resources link..

7/ Its simple when you know that gold, oil, diamonds arent just hedges against tough times - they're massive sources of profits when economies & trade crash. Which brings us back to Kapaln - a self proclaimed "gold evangelist".

Now you see where this is going...

8/ Imagne you've invest in gold & diamonds - but you are not satisfied with a useful safe hedge...you want bigger profits. What you need is chaos, economic dislocation, trade problems, trade frictions, uncertainty...

What would be the cheapest way to generate this...?

9/ You would need to generate chaos in big economies, big enough to make a splash to cause dislocation. The fact that Kaplan's Electrum group pays Daniel Kawczynski - a man with no discerable background in gold - as a consultant should have rung alarm bells immediately...

10/ When Gold spiked 10% after the referendum that made the expense of paying Kawczynski £6,000 look like chicken feed. The question you should be asking is how many other leading Brexiters are also being paid by similar companies...

Mogg is 
Banks is

How many more?

/Ends

I've received a number of questions asking how I know Daniel Kawczynski is being paid £6000 a month by a secretive gold investor...it's simple - it's on the "register of Members interests" took me all of 2 minutes.

Just look it up online.

Why aren't journalists doing this?

*


----------



## Magyarmum

Deleted because somehow it posted itself before I had chance to reply to anything!


----------



## noushka05

D*avid Schneider*‏:
*Brexiters*: "_You're bullies! You're like the mafia! The Nazis! The Soviet Union! We fought you in the war!" _

*Tusk: *_"What is the place in hell like for those who promised Brexit without a plan?" _

*Brexiters:* "_How dare you use insults!"_

_"How dare Donald Tusk talk about a special place in hell for those who promised Brexit without a plan!" say people who 3 years later 
and with 51 days to go still don't have a plan._
_

........................._


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> @noushka05 said .......
> 
> One report is worth reading. But Civitas is yet another dodgy right wing think tank operating out of 55 Tufton street MM:FacepalmAs I've tried to explain before,( only to have it dismissed as a conspiracy theory even though the evidence is irrefutible), Tufton street is the home of right wing extremists, climate change deniers with connection to America's dangerous libertarian groups. They are pushing for brexit because deregulation is their agenda. These dangerous people behind the dodgy right wing think tanks are disaster capitalists. Anyone who has read Naomi Kleins The Shock Doctrine, will be extremely worried how brexit is panning out.
> https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/11/18...libertarians-and-fossil-fuel-lobbyists-brexit
> 
> https://www.desmog.co.uk/55-tufton-street
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your second link is a trustworthy source & supports Cheekys argument not yours
> 
> conclusion.
> 
> _For if this report augurs anything it is the danger of what a nativist Brexit state will look like. 'Brexit means Brexit' is already being translated for BAME and migrant communities into 'Brexit means racism' - not just on the ground but also in the repressive proposals already emanating from politicians and government departments in October 2016 (see figure 9). A nation state, which is (in the globalised world of the twenty-first century) defined specifically to divide those who rightfully belong from those who do not, will by definition enshrine racism. The discourse we can expect in the run-up to the triggering of Article 50 could be even more pernicious than that of the referendum debate. The referendum may be over but the 'vote' as to what kind of multicultural society we remain is in the making._


That's right. I did say this:Wideyed.


----------



## noushka05

Eeyore said:


> This is what most of us think of Brexit in an EU country, a summary of an editorial: "Brexit meets criteria for madness". Einstein once said that it is madness to do the same thing over and over again and each times expects a different outcome. For a logical mind following the twists and turns of the British government has brought lots of suspicions of their real purpose. Are they acting like fools deliberately, playing for time or are they just behaving like a mad person behaves according to Einstein?
> 
> The UK is back to were it started two years ago. UK doesn´t want more time to sort out what it wants, but doesn´t want the the deal it wanted, doesn´t want to leave without deal and doesn´t want to remain. It doesn´t want a new referendum either. The only thing it seems to want is to keep May as PM and the conservatives in power.
> When May promised to negotiate a better deal, she said that, no one needs to have what they don´t want and all can have what they want, just as long they support her. Nothing makes sense, but it doesn´t matter as long as no one has to bear the consequences, as it will still be all the EU´s fault. If you doubt that, read the headlines of the Sun and Daily Mail.
> The truth of May´s policy is grim. There is no plan B, there is no plot, there is nothing but coming back with the same demands and getting the same answers. To us that is madness. Personally I can´t understand why you put up with her madness and the current government. But then the US has Trump, Hungary Orban, Italians have Forte Italia and France Le Pen. UK has Brexit. Making sense and doing what is good for the people is obviously not very important in politics is many countries.
> 
> Back to May. She cannot deliver the impossible. Backstop is vital for Ireland and EU will support Ireland. And the Irish want to stay in EU, even more so after Brexit. Like most Europeans, we really want to stay more than ever in EU. So what is May´s tactic? Is it really that she threatens EU with a no deal, a scenario that will ruin UK for a long, long time. It will hurt a bit EU, but hey, in reality it could even mean that more EU companies will get the business instead of the UK.
> 
> Personally again I can´t understand how a conservative party is dramatically making it harder for UK companies to do business? I can understand why it doesn´t care about people, as that is their political agenda. When you say conducting business will be easier without EU, again, it makes no sense. Does anyone really think that it will be a selling pitch to say that in UK we cut all the red tape and that is why our product is so cheap? Do you really think that consumer´s want to buy poor quality products without guarantees when there is a choice? Also, do you really think you can make them as cheap as, for example the Chinese?
> 
> So for us all this makes no sense, it is just sheer madness. But then the populists policies are based on madness, slogans, and creating enemies. I really feel so sorry for British people, you deserve better. Putting Britain first is not what May has been doing. Putting May first is what May has been doing. Good luck and hope for a miracle, because that is what you need.


Another great post 

Not sure if you can see the video on this link to a US news program? It explains the stupidity of brexit. The whole world must be watching on in disbelief at this shocking act of self harm.
*
I didn't think it was possible, but a #NoDealBrexit sounds an even dumber idea when you listen to American TV reporting it.

'When Big Ben strikes 11pm on the 29th of March the UK government will declare a critical incident."


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1091409385178439681*..


Eeyore said:


> Personally again I can´t understand how a conservative party is dramatically making it harder for UK companies to do business? I can understand why it doesn´t care about people, as that is their political agenda. When you say conducting business will be easier without EU, again, it makes no sense. Does anyone really think that it will be a selling pitch to say that in UK we cut all the red tape and that is why our product is so cheap? Do you really think that consumer´s want to buy poor quality products without guarantees when there is a choice? Also, do you really think you can make them as cheap as, for example the Chinese?


Hard to believe some say they specifically voted leave because they dont want EU laws, even though they protect us, our food, environment and animals.








Eeyore said:


> So for us all this makes no sense, it is just sheer madness. But then the populists policies are based on madness, slogans, and creating enemies. I really feel so sorry for British people, you deserve better. Putting Britain first is not what May has been doing. Putting May first is what May has been doing. Good luck and hope for a miracle, because that is what you need.


Yep! Tory party before country, thats Mays priority. I will never get my head around the silly vacuous slogans people fall for? Make Britain Great Again! Make America Great Again! Take Britain back! *cringe*. Jingoism & nationalism are tools of the powerful to manipulate the masses. Across the globe right wing populism has manipulated millions of people into voting against their own best interests. Terrifying time to be alive.


----------



## KittenKong

Sorry, but this did make me laugh.
:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Timely article by George Monbiot. *Why disaster capitalists are praying for a no-deal Brexit*

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏: T_he world's pollutocrats see a no-deal UK as a huge potential prize, in which they can operate unhindered by public protections. It's bloody terrifying, so I've written a column about it: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...saster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment
_
_Why they want a no-deal Brexit. And why, in these 49 days, we must do all we can to stop that happening._
*







*

_I'm a Remainer, but I would much rather see a negotiated Brexit than No Deal. I see little realistic prospect of a 2nd referendum - there's simply not enough public pressure. So, reluctantly, I see Corbyn's offer as more or less the only way forward.

The ideal situation is that the government or Parliament, belatedly responding to the accumulated evidence of massive fraud and cheating, declare the results of the referendum null and void. But sadly I see no prospect of that between now and March 29._


*....................................*


Miles King‏ @MilesKing10 2h2 hours ago
Look at what US corporations are demanding be included in a UK-US trade deal - ditch the #precautionaryprinciple. @GeorgeMonbiot


----------



## noushka05

More from George:Kiss


----------



## AlexPed2393

Some people on here really do love to bash JRM. Yes he is posh, he knows he is posh, he knows he speaks like a politician, he is not stupid. I would prefer him in charge of the tory party rather than Theresa May. T May seems so stubborn and stuck up her own bum bum she can't see the light of day and isn't willing to take on the feedback from the rest of her party.
Plus insults have been flying both ways from leavers and remainers, remainers calling leavers racists, leavers calling remainers ignorant and stupid. Take a chill pill and think before you post. 
Putting up a barrage, and I mean an absolute BARRAGE of information makes it impossible to have a half decent conversation. It's a conversation so you give, you take and so on, not give give give give give give give give give give give give READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS, then sorry I don't have time to reply to you 

Not much new on the Brexit front anyway, hope you've all planned a lovely weekend in this 'spiteful' country


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Some people on here really do love to bash JRM. Yes he is posh, he knows he is posh, he knows he speaks like a politician, he is not stupid. I would prefer him in charge of the tory party rather than Theresa May. T May seems so stubborn and stuck up her own bum bum she can't see the light of day and isn't willing to take on the feedback from the rest of her party.
> Plus insults have been flying both ways from leavers and remainers, remainers calling leavers racists, leavers calling remainers ignorant and stupid. Take a chill pill and think before you post.
> Putting up a barrage, and I mean an absolute BARRAGE of information makes it impossible to have a half decent conversation. It's a conversation so you give, you take and so on, not give give give give give give give give give give give give READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS, then sorry I don't have time to reply to you
> 
> Not much new on the Brexit front anyway, hope you've all planned a lovely weekend in this 'spiteful' country


When I haven't had the time to reply to your posts and said so, I believe I've gone back & responded to them all. Or have I missed something?

And as for Rees Mogg, it isn't because hes posh that he gets bashed, its because he is a very dangerous extremist. The man is totally & utterly morally bankrupt. Have you checked out his voting record? Do you know who Steve Bannon is? The ERG?


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Some people on here really do love to bash JRM. Yes he is posh, he knows he is posh, he knows he speaks like a politician, he is not stupid. I would prefer him in charge of the tory party rather than Theresa May. T May seems so stubborn and stuck up her own bum bum she can't see the light of day and isn't willing to take on the feedback from the rest of her party.
> Plus insults have been flying both ways from leavers and remainers, remainers calling leavers racists, leavers calling remainers ignorant and stupid. Take a chill pill and think before you post.
> Putting up a barrage, and I mean an absolute BARRAGE of information makes it impossible to have a half decent conversation. It's a conversation so you give, you take and so on, not give give give give give give give give give give give give READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS, then sorry I don't have time to reply to you
> 
> Not much new on the Brexit front anyway, hope you've all planned a lovely weekend in this 'spiteful' country


Lifelong tory (now ex tory) Matthew Parris on Mogg,

_"His manners are perfumed but his opinions are poison"

_


----------



## Magyarmum

@noushka said .....

*UK promised to protect Nissan from Brexit fallout with €91 million of support*
The car industry, like many other industries are 'just in time' producers - this means they depend upon the Single Market & Customs Union which we are LEAVING. Its fascinating that so many leave supporters still can't seem to be able grasp this crucial fact..

Are you wearing these?

Perhaps before you comment you should try reading the thread. @Elles and I had been discussing the number of car manufacturers who had moved their operations to another country - not only from the UK but from the EU as well, Germany being a prime example. We weren't talking about Brexit in particular.

As for the article about the monetary offer to Nissan, I posted that for general information because it had just popped up in my inbox. Perhaps it's you who need the specs because you obviously didn't see I made no comment about it, so unless you're a mind reader, you have no idea what my opinion is about it!

Noushka said .....

Your second link is a trustworthy source & supports Cheekys argument not yours 

Once again you've got your knickers in a twist. Cheeky and I weren't arguing. I simply posted some articles I thought she might like to read, so your comment about me losing the argument, which was purely a figment of your imagination, isn't valid.

And quite frankly I can't be bothered to answer about Civitas being a dodgy right wing organisation because everything that doesn't fit in with your extreme left point of view is considered to be extreme right wing according to you. As for my opinion on all the charts that you keep producing to substantiate that everyone who disagree with you and with more than a couple of bob to their name is plotting to take over the country amounts to nothing more than conspiracy theories.

Perhaps you should read these articles and get yourself educated .....

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180925075108.htm

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/science-daily/

*Who believes in conspiracies? New research offers a theory*
*People with certain personality traits and cognitive styles are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories*

https://www.psypost.org/2018/06/peo...edge-likely-believe-conspiracy-theories-51447

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/psypost/

*People who overestimate their political knowledge are more likely to believe conspiracy theories*


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Some people on here really do love to bash JRM. Yes he is posh, he knows he is posh, he knows he speaks like a politician, he is not stupid. I would prefer him in charge of the tory party rather than Theresa May. T May seems so stubborn and stuck up her own bum bum she can't see the light of day and isn't willing to take on the feedback from the rest of her party.
> Plus insults have been flying both ways from leavers and remainers, remainers calling leavers racists, leavers calling remainers ignorant and stupid. Take a chill pill and think before you post.
> Putting up a barrage, and I mean an absolute BARRAGE of information makes it impossible to have a half decent conversation. It's a conversation so you give, you take and so on, not give give give give give give give give give give give give READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS, then sorry I don't have time to reply to you
> 
> Not much new on the Brexit front anyway, hope you've all planned a lovely weekend in this 'spiteful' country


I'm afraid I don't like Rees-Mogg because with full intent he uses his oh-so-reasonable, butter-wouldn't-melt, persona to lie to people. Mostly about the supposed economic benefits of a No Deal Brexit, without mentioning any of the significant downsides. He makes supposedly factual statements that require a lot of research to prove incorrect in the full knowledge that most people won't do the research and that the non-fact will therefore be accepted as true.

He really is a nasty piece of work well disguised as the trustworthy voice of authority.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Some people on here really do love to bash JRM. Yes he is posh, he knows he is posh, he knows he speaks like a politician, he is not stupid. I would prefer him in charge of the tory party rather than Theresa May. T May seems so stubborn and stuck up her own bum bum she can't see the light of day and isn't willing to take on the feedback from the rest of her party.
> Plus insults have been flying both ways from leavers and remainers, remainers calling leavers racists, leavers calling remainers ignorant and stupid. Take a chill pill and think before you post.
> Putting up a barrage, and I mean an absolute BARRAGE of information makes it impossible to have a half decent conversation. It's a conversation so you give, you take and so on, not give give give give give give give give give give give give READ THIS READ THIS READ THIS, then sorry I don't have time to reply to you
> 
> Not much new on the Brexit front anyway, hope you've all planned a lovely weekend in this 'spiteful' country


I know exactly what you mean about being bombarded with one sided information, rather like living in London in the blitz I would imagine - run as fast as you can for the nearest air raid shelter to get away from the flak!

And perhaps every morning the thread should start like this ........


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> And quite frankly I can't be bothered to answer about Civitas being a dodgy right wing organisation because everything that doesn't fit in with your extreme left point of view is considered to be extreme right wing according to you. As for my opinion on all the charts that you keep producing to substantiate that everyone who disagree with you and with more than a couple of bob to their name is plotting to take over the country amounts to nothing more than conspiracy theories.
> 
> Perhaps you should read these articles and get yourself educated .....
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180925075108.htm
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/science-daily/
> 
> *Who believes in conspiracies? New research offers a theory*
> *People with certain personality traits and cognitive styles are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories*
> 
> https://www.psypost.org/2018/06/peo...edge-likely-believe-conspiracy-theories-51447
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/psypost/
> 
> *People who overestimate their political knowledge are more likely to believe conspiracy theories*


You're the one dismissing factual information as conspiracy theories, not me!:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

The dishonesty of these brextremists defies belief! Well done Joanna Cherry!

*Joanna Cherry QC MP*‏Verified account @joannaccherry Feb 6
_The #DUP & #ERG didn't like my point of order setting out what @eucopresident said in full not just the truncated headline read out by Peter Bone. Sometimes, the truth hurts #Brexit_


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Timely article by George Monbiot. *Why disaster capitalists are praying for a no-deal Brexit*
> 
> *GeorgeMonbiot*‏: T_he world's pollutocrats see a no-deal UK as a huge potential prize, in which they can operate unhindered by public protections. It's bloody terrifying, so I've written a column about it: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...saster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment
> _
> _Why they want a no-deal Brexit. And why, in these 49 days, we must do all we can to stop that happening._
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> _I'm a Remainer, but I would much rather see a negotiated Brexit than No Deal. I see little realistic prospect of a 2nd referendum - there's simply not enough public pressure. So, reluctantly, I see Corbyn's offer as more or less the only way forward.
> 
> The ideal situation is that the government or Parliament, belatedly responding to the accumulated evidence of massive fraud and cheating, declare the results of the referendum null and void. But sadly I see no prospect of that between now and March 29._
> 
> 
> *....................................*
> 
> 
> Miles King‏ @MilesKing10 2h2 hours ago
> Look at what US corporations are demanding be included in a UK-US trade deal - ditch the #precautionaryprinciple. @GeorgeMonbiot


Yep.

*Mike Galsworthy*‏:

*
"Unlike the European court of justice, the Office for Environmental Protection will be funded and controlled by the government it seeks to hold to account."

And there - in a sentence - is what shouting "take back control" was all about.

....*


----------



## KittenKong

Guy Vehrofstadt's brilliant response to the vile Hoey lies.

"Divide Hell" :Hilarious They probably will if there is one!


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2267483660135335&id=1637187693164938


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliantly said.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2038679689758829&id=1777176712575796


----------



## noushka05

Eeyore said:


> Personally I can´t understand why you put up with her madness and the current government. But then the US has Trump, Hungary Orban, Italians have Forte Italia and France Le Pen. UK has Brexit. Making sense and doing what is good for the people is obviously not very important in politics is many countries.


A question I've asked myself many times. Brexit aside, just look at all the deaths, the misery and suffering the tories have caused? add that to the lies, the endemic xenophobia & corruption within the tory party . I can't think of a party which has been so greedy & so cruel to its own citizens - to wildlife.

Look at the state of this? Who in their right mind would vote for someone like this??

*Conservative MP Christopher Chope blocks bill to protect girls from FGM*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ntion-bill-tory-mp-conservative-a8770026.html

Back to your other point about the rise of the far right elsewhere, its worth noting that Trump, Orban, Salvini, Le Pen - Putin! are all pro brexit. That is certainly *not* a side I want to be on!


----------



## KittenKong

Warning, contains strong language.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=799741417074166&id=440678272980484


----------



## noushka05

God Almighty. Is this really what people voted for?

*James Melville*‏: _Freight ships setting sail from UK ports this week with cargo to far-flung destinations like Australia or New Zealand, have a voyage of about 50 days. They risk arriving after Brexit day (if it's a no-deal Brexit) with no idea of the trade rules that will be in place. Insane._


----------



## KittenKong

Never used to be a fan of hers, but she's certainly won me over.

Brilliantly said.

The so-called party of business should be listening to people like her.


----------



## Arnie83

Well here's a shock ...

*A firm with no ships that was to ensure ferries kept crossing the Channel in a no-deal Brexit has had its contract cancelled.*

Seaborne Freight's contract worth £13.8m had attracted widespread criticism after it emerged the firm owned no vessels suitable for carrying goods or vehicles.

The Department for Transport (DfT) said it had decided to terminate the Seaborne's contract after Irish company Arklow Shipping, which had provided backing to the deal, stepped away.​
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-firm-with-no-ships-has-ferries-contract-cancelled-11632176


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Never used to be a fan of hers, but she's certainly won me over.
> 
> Brilliantly said.
> 
> The so-called party of business should be listening to people like her.
> View attachment 392574


I have no idea who AirGunnersen might be, but I rather think that quite a big bunch of Leave voters put their cross in the box in the hope that they _would_ in fact be wealthier as a result.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> A question I've asked myself many times. Brexit aside, just look at all the deaths, the misery and suffering the tories have caused? add that to the lies, the endemic xenophobia & corruption within the tory party .* I can't think of a party which has been so greedy & so cruel to its own citizens - to wildlife*.
> 
> Look at the state of this? Who in their right mind would vote for someone like this??
> -
> *Conservative MP Christopher Chope blocks bill to protect girls from FGM*
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ntion-bill-tory-mp-conservative-a8770026.html-
> 
> Back to your other point about the rise of the far right elsewhere, its worth noting that Trump, Orban, Salvini, Le Pen - Putin! are all pro brexit. That is certainly *not* a side I want to be on!


Well how about Maduro's Socialist party in Venezuela, and Kim Jong Un's Workers Party in North Korea for starters!

And perhaps you should get your facts straight .... this is what Orban said about the UK leaving the EU which clearly states he isn't exactly overjoyed at the prospect!

http://abouthungary.hu/news-in-brie...wal-agreement-by-eu-leaders-is-a-sad-day-for-
the-european-union

*PM Orbán: Endorsement of Brexit withdrawal agreement by EU leaders is "a sad day for the European Union"*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.cityam.com/272870/no-nissans-move-not-proof-brexit-disaster

*No, Nissan's move is not proof that Brexit will be a disaster*

https://www.bakermckenzie.com/en/insight/publications/2019/01/uk-australia-pre-brexit-deal

*UK/Australia Pre-Brexit Deal will Facilitate Trade of Medicines and Medical Devices*


----------



## Arnie83

Well knock me down with a feather; it seems a country a fifth the size of the EU can't get as good a deal ...

Japan is seeking tougher concessions from Britain in trade talks than it secured from the EU, while negotiations between London and Tokyo are also being slowed by the looming risk of no-deal Brexit.

*Japanese trade negotiators are confident they can extract better terms*, the Financial Times reported, in a sign of the mounting difficulties facing UK officials as they attempt to line up post-Brexit trade deals around the world.​
(from the Grauniad reporting a Financial Times story that I can't access)

With no great pleasure, this is a further nail in the coffin of the glorious trade deal promise that is now the only tangible 'benefit' claimed by the leading Brexiteers. Even after the short to medium term hit we are going to take, our terms with the EU will be worse than now, just as they will with many countries with whom we have deals via the EU. Currently that equates to about 65% of our exports. We won't be making up the shortfall through deals with Trump or China.


----------



## Elles

Won’t Japan want to deal with us more than the Eu if we give them a better deal?


----------



## Magyarmum

Is this the FT article you can't access?

https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2...egmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a

*No-deal Brexit risks rise as UK-Japan trade talks stall*


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Is this the FT article you can't access?
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2...egmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a
> 
> *No-deal Brexit risks rise as UK-Japan trade talks stall*


It's behind a paywall, I cant access either.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Is this the FT article you can't access?
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2...egmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a
> 
> *No-deal Brexit risks rise as UK-Japan trade talks stall*


I don't know, you daft pudd'n; I can't access it!


----------



## Elles

It's ok, the Guardian has copied it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...essions-from-britain-in-trade-talks-eu-brexit

Seems Japan has agreed not to give better terms to anyone else than it has the Eu. This could work in our favour, with Japan relocating back to Japan, because it no longer needs to have operations in the Eu. If the U.K. give Japan a better deal, it could be beneficial for Japanese business to continue to operate here.

Of course it's the uncertainty that is delaying everything. Not brexit per se. Few are saying they won't spend money here if we leave the Eu, just they're waiting to see what they need to spend it on.

ETA don't know if it's copied exact ofc, the Guardian are likely to put a pro Eu spin on anything and mainly publish pro Eu stories.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Well how about Maduro's Socialist party in Venezuela, and Kim Jong Un's Workers Party in North Korea for starters!
> 
> And perhaps you should get your facts straight .... this is what Orban said about the UK leaving the EU which clearly states he isn't exactly overjoyed at the prospect!
> 
> http://abouthungary.hu/news-in-brie...wal-agreement-by-eu-leaders-is-a-sad-day-for-
> the-european-union
> 
> *PM Orbán: Endorsement of Brexit withdrawal agreement by EU leaders is "a sad day for the European Union"*


To clarify, I was talking about _this_ country - no party in _this_ country (in living memory!) has done so much harm to its own citizens - to the country! Everything is in crisis, the country has never been so divided, it is tearing itself apart!. Imagine using a whataboutery to let the evil tories off the hook though?  We're heading down the Venezuela/ North Korea route with this cabal of crooks in government!

Your link is broken. Orban is a hideous authoritarian racist - no surprise the tories are his biggest fans. For shame >>>>

Angela Rayner_ :Sickening hypocrisy from the Tories. Tory MEPs voted against a European Parliament motion condemning Viktor Orban's ultra-right wing Hungarian government. Tories were the only governing conservative party in western Europe to support Hungarian far-right in EU vote. PM silent

_
ETA Just found this from the Times.....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Won't Japan want to deal with us more than the Eu if we give them a better deal?


Impossible to say, but while these deals aren't necessarily zero sum things, Japan will be able to shift current terms so that they benefit at our expense.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I don't know, you daft pudd'n; I can't access it!


This daft pudd'n found it on .....

https://news.google.com/stories/CAA...jU3BEZDNURkVLQUFQAQ?hl=en-TZ&gl=TZ&ceid=TZ:en

Just scroll down and on the right hand side after twitter news you should find it and read the whole article as I did


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> This daft pudd'n found it on .....
> 
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqOQgKIjNDQklTSURvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoTUtFUWpBd2RUTGpZQU1FWlljU3BEZDNURkVLQUFQAQ?hl=en-TZ&gl=TZ&ceid=TZ:en
> 
> Just scroll down and on the right hand side after twitter news you should find it and read the whole article as I did


Thanks, but it still won't let me read it. I'm sure that's the one, though.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Thanks, but it still won't let me read it. I'm sure that's the one, though.


How strange because I accessed and read it twice, but having now just tried it .... I can't read it either!

Sorry about that!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> How strange because I accessed and read it twice, but having now just tried it .... I can't read it either!
> 
> Sorry about that!


Nothing to be sorry for; not your fault!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> To clarify, I was talking about _this_ country - no party in _this_ country (in living memory!) has done so much harm to its own citizens - to the country! Everything is in crisis, the country has never been so divided, it is tearing itself apart!. Imagine using a whataboutery to let the evil tories off the hook though?  We're heading down the Venezuela/ North Korea route with this cabal of crooks in government!
> 
> Your link is broken. Orban is a hideous authoritarian racist - no surprise the tories are his biggest fans. For shame >>>>
> 
> Angela Rayner_ :Sickening hypocrisy from the Tories. Tory MEPs voted against a European Parliament motion condemning Viktor Orban's ultra-right wing Hungarian government. Tories were the only governing conservative party in western Europe to support Hungarian far-right in EU vote. PM silent
> _
> ETA Just found this from the Times.....


https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-dont-punish-the-uk-because-of-brexit

*Viktor Orbán: Don't punish the UK because of Brexit*

Rather hypocritical of you considering Naomi Klein and Owen Jones whom you worship so much, not so long ago, were heaping praise on Chavez and Maduro , .... as were pathetic Jeremy and Diane Abbott amongst your other left winger pals?

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kirchick-venezuela-pundits-20170802-story.html

*Remember all those left-wing pundits who drooled over Venezuela?*

https://reaction.life/ten-times-corbynistas-praised-chavez-maduros-venezuela/

*Ten times Corbynistas praised Chavez and Maduro's Venezuela*

*







*


----------



## Eeyore

Lets see who and what you support when you support Brexit by checking what your friends do in real life and what are the values they represent: 
1) Orban, a friend of Brexiteers and Putin and Trump etc.
About changing Hungary´s history: He wants to deny that Hungarians had anything to do with the holocaust, despite the fact that deportations and mass murders started way before nazis occupied Hungary, carid.com
About freedom of speech: "Since 2010, when Orbán returned to power, press freedom has been under pressure: nowadays, both the public and most of the private media are vectors of the pro government propaganda. In the case of private media, its control used to pass through people close to Orbán, such as Lőrinc Mészáros, who owned several local newspapers. Now, this control is direct and centralised because of the CEPMF." . This means that Orbin controls most of the press. https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/news/hungary-orban-and-the-end-of-the-freedom-of-speech/ (and if you don´t like that link, I have lots of others. )
About racism: UN human rights chief Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein called him a racist and a xenophobe. Why - well see for yourself and then try to say that he is not. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban

I could add similar links about his attempt to replace the judges with his own men, but I am sure you get the picture of what his values and policies are. Hungary is becoming an autocrat, not a democracy. https://www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu/how-orban-manipulates-markets-to-suppress-hungarys-opposition/ All this backed by fake news.

2) Trump - I don´t really have to tell you, do I? Although I believe there are a couple of Trump supporters on PF. But a racist is a dangerous and vile person.

3) DUP - wants e.g. to deny women to right for abortion. UK law does not apply to NI. " Northern Ireland's law on abortion, specifically its lack of provision in cases of fatal foetal abnormality or where the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...emale-premier-arlene-foster-court-ruling-rape . So in comparison to someone calling a politician "stupid woman" brexiteers support DUP but find Corbyn insulting women.

4) Le Penn - a 100% racist and a vile person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen

My question: what does it tell of Brexit, if all of them think that Brexit represents their values and helps their causes? I could ask further that how many slogans and claims brexiteers have are excactly the same as theirs? I can´t see any difference between Brexit, Trump. Le Penn and Orbin.

@noushka05 If you haven't read this link, you might find it extremely interesting.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/13/17823488/hungary-democracy-authoritarianism-trump

Orban needs to be exposed fully and anyone who would support his populist ideals is a threat to all our future freedoms.


----------



## Arnie83

Eeyore said:


> Lets see who and what you support when you support Brexit by checking what *your friends* do in real life and what are the values they represent:
> 1) Orban, a friend of Brexiteers and Putin and Trump etc.
> About changing Hungary´s history: He wants to deny that Hungarians had anything to do with the holocaust, despite the fact that deportations and mass murders started way before nazis occupied Hungary, carid.com
> About freedom of speech: "Since 2010, when Orbán returned to power, press freedom has been under pressure: nowadays, both the public and most of the private media are vectors of the pro government propaganda. In the case of private media, its control used to pass through people close to Orbán, such as Lőrinc Mészáros, who owned several local newspapers. Now, this control is direct and centralised because of the CEPMF." . This means that Orbin controls most of the press. https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/news/hungary-orban-and-the-end-of-the-freedom-of-speech/ (and if you don´t like that link, I have lots of others. )
> About racism: UN human rights chief Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein called him a racist and a xenophobe. Why - well see for yourself and then try to say that he is not. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban
> 
> I could add similar links about his attempt to replace the judges with his own men, but I am sure you get the picture of what his values and policies are. Hungary is becoming an autocrat, not a democracy. https://www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu/how-orban-manipulates-markets-to-suppress-hungarys-opposition/ All this backed by fake news.
> 
> 2) Trump - I don´t really have to tell you, do I? Although I believe there are a couple of Trump supporters on PF. But a racist is a dangerous and vile person.
> 
> 3) DUP - wants e.g. to deny women to right for abortion. UK law does not apply to NI. " Northern Ireland's law on abortion, specifically its lack of provision in cases of fatal foetal abnormality or where the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...emale-premier-arlene-foster-court-ruling-rape . So in comparison to someone calling a politician "stupid woman" brexiteers support DUP but find Corbyn insulting women.
> 
> 4) Le Penn - a 100% racist and a vile person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen
> 
> My question: what does it tell of Brexit, if all of them think that Brexit represents their values and helps their causes? I could ask further that how many slogans and claims brexiteers have are excactly the same as theirs? I can´t see any difference between Brexit, Trump. Le Penn and Orbin.
> 
> @noushka05 If you haven't read this link, you might find it extremely interesting.
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/13/17823488/hungary-democracy-authoritarianism-trump
> 
> Orban needs to be exposed fully and anyone who would support his populist ideals is a threat to all our future freedoms.


I think there is a common thread, which is, let's say, an attachment to the nation state.

But, to my mind, where the individuals you have mentioned take that attachment way too far, and to the extent of racism, so that it is destructive and hostile to 'the other', the vast majority of Brexit supporters are nowhere even close to that extreme. It is important to bear that in mind when making the link, because although that link is, perhaps, intellectually valid, the implication - 'your friends' - of an equivalence is very wrong.

In my arguments against Brexit I bang on about tribalism, but I am careful not to imply that the more extreme forms of that apply to the generic 'Leaver' who I think are almost universally perfectly nice people.


----------



## Eeyore

Arnie83 said:


> I think there is a common thread, which is, let's say, an attachment to the nation state.
> 
> But, to my mind, where the individuals you have mentioned take that attachment way too far, and to the extent of racism, so that it is destructive and hostile to 'the other', the vast majority of Brexit supporters are nowhere even close to that extreme. It is important to bear that in mind when making the link, because although that link is, perhaps, intellectually valid, the implication - 'your friends' - of an equivalence is very wrong.
> 
> In my arguments against Brexit I bang on about tribalism, but I am careful not to imply that the more extreme forms of that apply to the generic 'Leaver' who I think are almost universally perfectly nice people.


Unfortunately many perfectly nice people have been lied to and led astray. Brexit policy is grim and brexiteers are people, who are behind that policy. I´m sure many leavers did genuinely think they´ll get a better Britain. Politicians like Farage, Boris and Jacob are the real villains, naturally. But now, after all this information, I really feel people should know what and whom they are supporting. IMO Britain is becoming a populist country, where fake news have become way too accepted and normal. Many are fighting back, as I can see on PF too, but is that enough? We will see. The future doesn´t look very good for UK at the moment, I´m afraid. Especially with "friends" like these.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/09..._content=varadkar-brexit-deal-can-be-done&_op

*Varadkar: Brexit deal can be done*

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/09...zYwMzU3ZjgyM2UzZjgwMWVmNDcifQ==#spotim-widget


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/09..._content=varadkar-brexit-deal-can-be-done&_op
> 
> *Varadkar: Brexit deal can be done*


The feeling I get is that for a deal to be done May will have to upset the ERG and move towards the (current) Labour position, with the backstop rendered redundant by a close customs arrangement.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.businessinsider.com/the...ments-new-brexit-legislation-2019-2?r=US&IR=T


----------



## MollySmith

noushka05 said:


> God Almighty. Is this really what people voted for?
> 
> *James Melville*‏: _Freight ships setting sail from UK ports this week with cargo to far-flung destinations like Australia or New Zealand, have a voyage of about 50 days. They risk arriving after Brexit day (if it's a no-deal Brexit) with no idea of the trade rules that will be in place. Insane._


I provide design for educational materials published by a global publisher for schools across the world including the most deprived. There is a huge pressure on staff to get complex projects through now so the books can be printed and shipped before Brexit which leads to long hours and a risk that content may not be accurate affecting education for children. Or they are put on hold until after Brexit but the risk to the sales of the publisher which is a charity. This is in addition to staff being comandered to provide a support system for those who work in the U.K. but not born here. So there are more demands on time. All because the publisher chooses to reduce airmiles by printing short print runs in local areas and it's unclear if there will be problems with stock being shipped to this country which could prove a problem to U.K. schools. Or there could be several versions of the same file sent to U.K. and offshore print but that presents different issues because of press settings. So more money. It's a small issue but one that will be affecting all educational product suppliers and book publishers if they print off shore. There aren't enough printers for books in this country.


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## KittenKong

One or two may be excited at this prospect.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...use-hard-power-defence-minister-idUKKCN1Q000J


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## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156737190630042&id=718910041


----------



## Elles

So people looking for future opportunities could be looking at stuff we farm out, but bringing it to the U.K. instead after brexit. Like the guys with the fruit ripening and the small farmers growing previously unpopular or unknown crops here that we usually import. If there aren’t enough printers for books here, maybe that’s an opening for investment, though I’d guess paper books are less popular now that 50% of under fives have their own laptop or tablet according to recent statistics.


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## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> One or two may be excited at this prospect.
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...use-hard-power-defence-minister-idUKKCN1Q000J
> 
> View attachment 392887
> View attachment 392888


"We can build new alliances, rekindle old ones and most importantly make it clear that we are the country that will act when required. And, a nation that people can turn to when the world needs leadership," Williamson will say.​
Oh for goodness' sake, wind your neck in, you little oik. Or alternatively, 'shut up and go away'.

The days when the world looked to the UK for leadership are a long way behind us, and demonstrating, through Brexit, that we are incapable of living in collaboration with other like-minded countries is not going to lead to their reinstatement.


----------



## mewtoo

Assuming that we actually leave the EU, and don't get hoodwinked with BRINO, then that's only the first step of fixing our country.
The hard work lies ahead.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> So people looking for future opportunities could be looking at stuff we farm out, but bringing it to the U.K. instead after brexit. Like the guys with the fruit ripening and the small farmers growing previously unpopular or unknown crops here that we usually import. If there aren't enough printers for books here, maybe that's an opening for investment, though I'd guess paper books are less popular now that 50% of under fives have their own laptop or tablet according to recent statistics.


I'm glad you replied because I think it shows how easy it might seem from the outside. Setting up a printing firm with qualified staff (it's a specialised job) to handle the output of just one of many academic publishers would cost millions of pounds so completely unviable. Almost all academic publishers closed down printing works as it wasn't financially viable many years ago, sadly so. Added to the machine costs, land and building is paper. Paper isn't made in this country so it has to be shipped in from mills in Europe. This has the net result that product will cost more. It undoubtedly will because of Brexit which is why publishers and book industry associations have expressed concern about leaving the EU.

And as for the under fives, so it may well be but in education, publishers are bound by the national curriculum and exam boards so it's not as simple as removing print (which outsells digital still) and almost all boards have blended learning. It's also important to note that many disadvantaged schools around the globe do not have internet connections so print is essential.


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## Magyarmum

https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2...-negotiations-and-believe-it-is-going-to-be-w

*Nearly two thirds of Brits think the EU has been harsh towards the UK during Brexit negotiations and believe it is going to be weaker once the UK has left*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2...-negotiations-and-believe-it-is-going-to-be-w
> 
> *Nearly two thirds of Brits think the EU has been harsh towards the UK during Brexit negotiations and believe it is going to be weaker once the UK has left*


Harsh? When we held all the cards? How can this be!?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Harsh? When we held all the cards? How can this be!?


Don't tell me you're getting cynical in your old age!


----------



## KittenKong

You've got to laugh haven't you!
:Hilarious









https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-quick-brexit-transition-at-wto-idUKKCN1MZ28D


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/11...g-many-alternatives-to-a-hard-irish-border-vi

*A Berlin Wall in Ireland? The EU is overlooking many alternatives to a hard Irish border *


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You've got to laugh haven't you!
> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 392948
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-quick-brexit-transition-at-wto-idUKKCN1MZ28D


Old news. The article is from 25th October 2018.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If brexit wasn't so serious, it would be funny. I heard the transport secretary this afternoon, what a joke this man is.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Harsh? When we held all the cards? How can this be!?


We don't hold any cards, and there have been no negotiations.


----------



## mewtoo

Although I ought to add that if negotiations were occurring, then we'd hold boocoo cards.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Don't tell me you're getting cynical in your old age!


I've started young!!


----------



## KittenKong

More stupidity...


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> More stupidity...
> 
> View attachment 392974


That's a fake/ parody account.


----------



## KittenKong

mewtoo said:


> That's a fake/ parody account.


Guess you are right seeing they spelt the tweet correctly.

But I have seen and heard similar from others, blaming the EU for things they are not responsible for.

When challenged re what legislation they accuse the EU of implementing it's no surprise they cannot give an answer.

They just like to blame the EU for anything they don't like!


----------



## mewtoo

KittenKong said:


> Guess you are right seeing they spelt the tweet correctly.
> 
> But I have seen and heard similar from others, blaming the EU for things they are not responsible for.
> 
> When challenged re what legislation they accuse the EU of implementing it's no surprise they cannot give an answer.
> 
> They just like to blame the EU for anything they don't like!


You guessed correctly that I'm right, but not for the reason you think. I read through the list of tweets, and it's a fake account.

In the past, I've seen people accuse the Nazis of things they were not responsible for, but they were still correct to hate them for the things they *were* responsible for.

They don't need to give a single example of legislation they accuse the EU of implementing. All they need to say is "any of the legislation", as any legislation from the EU is counter to the principle for which they voted, which was for the UK to be a self-governing nation once again.
We can copy ideas from abroad if we like them, but we must not have them imposed upon us by a foreign government, whether good or bad.

After nearly three years, haven't you worked out that they voted for a principle?
They weren't weighing up the pros and cons. They weren't thinking "how much money is in it for me?". It didn't occur to them to work out a price at which they would be willing to sell the rights of other people's children.
That's why the country has been so split, as the vote exposed that there are two very different types of people.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> That's why the country has been so split, as the vote exposed that there are two very different types of people.


It seems pretty obvious that there are very many different types of people. Not everyone voted to remain for the same reasons that I did, and not everyone voted leave for the same reasons that you did.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> More stupidity...
> 
> View attachment 392974


You're behind the times again!

Cornwall has had road signs in both English and Cornish since 2009. Nothing to do with EU rules and regulations.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nty-officially-bi-lingual-return-Cornish.html

A road sign in both French and Breton


----------



## rona

mewtoo said:


> After nearly three years, haven't you worked out that they voted for a principle?
> They weren't weighing up the pros and cons. They weren't thinking "how much money is in it for me?". It didn't occur to them to work out a price at which they would be willing to sell the rights of other people's children.
> .





Arnie83 said:


> It seems pretty obvious that there are very many different types of people. Not everyone voted to remain for the same reasons that I did, and not everyone voted leave for the same reasons that you did.


I agree, but I bet your bottom dollar(should be pound but doesn't sound so good) that it's pretty close to why the majority did


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> More stupidity...
> 
> View attachment 392974


I take it you've never been to Wales then


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I take it you've never been to Wales then


or to Belgium or Ireland, and Andorra where in common with some parts of France and Spain road signs are also in Catalan?


----------



## Calvine

@Magyarmum: 
''Sorry, the page you requested could not be found'' re the link is what I'm getting (post 9540).


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Guess you are right seeing they spelt the tweet correctly.
> 
> But I have seen and heard similar from others, blaming the EU for things they are not responsible for.
> 
> When challenged re what legislation they accuse the EU of implementing it's no surprise they cannot give an answer.
> 
> They just like to blame the EU for anything they don't like!


So, posting false tweets pretending they're real .  Is there any bottom left to the barrel you've been scraping?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> @Magyarmum:
> ''Sorry, the page you requested could not be found'' re the link is what I'm getting (post 9540).


How strange! The link is from Queen Mary University of London and were the results of a survey they'd taken.

Go back to post 9540 and click on the link, which as you said will come up "page not found" or words to that effect. Go to "search" in the top right hand corner and type in "nearly two thirds etc" then enter. It should (fingers crossed) bring up their News page and if you scroll down you'll find the article........ I hope!


----------



## AlexPed2393

kimthecat said:


> So, posting false tweets pretending they're real .  Is there any bottom left to the barrel you've been scraping?


This is what I was getting at earlier but it was lost on some people.

I love it when people post those squares where he A talked to B and B talked to C so A must agree with C...


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> It seems pretty obvious that there are very many different types of people. Not everyone voted to remain for the same reasons that I did, and not everyone voted leave for the same reasons that you did.


There were two types of Brexiteers:

1. Those who voted for the principle of being a self-governing nation once again. These were the honourable Brexiteers and were in the majority. For richer or poorer, they knew the value of freedom over slavery.
2. Those who hadn't seen a perceived economic advantage of being in the EU and therefore voted against it on those grounds. These were the less honourable Brexiteers and were in the minority.

If the EU had recirculated more money to Britain's working class, then we would not have voted to leave the EU. There are not enough people in the UK who understand that living free is more important than the perception of wealth.

Special thanks go to Barack Obama who stood there, as our own Prime minister stood next to him grinning, and threatened us. He helped to shore up the Leave vote for sure.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-dont-punish-the-uk-because-of-brexit
> 
> *Viktor Orbán: Don't punish the UK because of Brexit*


Orban supported our leaving the EU. He's says don't punish us, because hes an ally of the tory extreme right - he's portraying the EU as the bad the bad guys when in reality we are punishing ourselves. Brexit is self inflicted so the consequences of leaving the SM/CU etc are all OUR fault.



Magyarmum said:


> Rather hypocritical of you considering Naomi Klein and Owen Jones whom you worship so much, not so long ago, were heaping praise on Chavez and Maduro , .... as were pathetic Jeremy and Diane Abbott amongst your other left winger pals?
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kirchick-venezuela-pundits-20170802-story.html


James Kirchick is a war loving neocon, a racist & well known liar. Interesting that you think he has more credibility than Naomi Klien. You clearly haven't read any of her books, have you?

Anyway, I'll let Naomi respond to the Kirchick article 

*Naomi Klein*‏ : the article you tweeted is full of crap. In my case it Ignores my extensive criticism of Venezuela's petro-populism
2. Instead it hinges on a 17-year-old petition written after a disgraceful US-backed coup attempt.
3. Yes, in Shock Doctrine I wrote that Chavez had moved away from IMF shock therapy and redistributed wealth. He did.
4. But I repeatedly warned against over reliance on heavy oil and warned against messianic politics. I spend my life doing it.

I notice he also attacks Bernie Sanders. And to rule out any doubt - this is exactly the way I feel. I'm not the one who finds it hard to condemn authoritarian regimes whatever side of the spectrum they're on.



















As hes your go to source - you might like this article by Kilchick?

*James Kirchick: Is Hungary becoming a rogue state in the center of Europe?*
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/op...ng-a-rogue-state-in-the-center-of-europe.html



Magyarmum said:


> *Remember all those left-wing pundits who drooled over Venezuela?*
> 
> https://reaction.life/ten-times-corbynistas-praised-chavez-maduros-venezuela/
> 
> *Ten times Corbynistas praised Chavez and Maduro's Venezuela*


Its because they hoped for social justice for the people, obviously that hasnt turned out! And if they haven't already, I feel they should come out & strongly condemn Maduro like Bernie Sanders has done. To put the record straight again, I'm not a Corbynista, I'm a member of the Green Party. But I'm also a realist & cannot see the Greens getting into power anytime soon. The only hope we have is a pact with a labour government. But getting the tories out is priority as its the only hope of addressing the terrible social injustice they are getting away with. Stopping the badger cull. Saving our NHS. And the only hope we have of taking urgent action on climate change & environmental degradation. As you appear to be a climate denier, you won't understand the urgency those of us who accept the science feel about this.

Mehdi Hasan is one of my heros. Never afraid to hold power to account. This may ( though probably not) interest you? https://theintercept.com/2019/02/07/whos-really-afraid-of-socialism/



Eeyore said:


> Lets see who and what you support when you support Brexit by checking what your friends do in real life and what are the values they represent:
> 1) Orban, a friend of Brexiteers and Putin and Trump etc.
> About changing Hungary´s history: He wants to deny that Hungarians had anything to do with the holocaust, despite the fact that deportations and mass murders started way before nazis occupied Hungary, carid.com
> About freedom of speech: "Since 2010, when Orbán returned to power, press freedom has been under pressure: nowadays, both the public and most of the private media are vectors of the pro government propaganda. In the case of private media, its control used to pass through people close to Orbán, such as Lőrinc Mészáros, who owned several local newspapers. Now, this control is direct and centralised because of the CEPMF." . This means that Orbin controls most of the press. https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/news/hungary-orban-and-the-end-of-the-freedom-of-speech/ (and if you don´t like that link, I have lots of others. )
> About racism: UN human rights chief Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein called him a racist and a xenophobe. Why - well see for yourself and then try to say that he is not. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban
> 
> I could add similar links about his attempt to replace the judges with his own men, but I am sure you get the picture of what his values and policies are. Hungary is becoming an autocrat, not a democracy. https://www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu/how-orban-manipulates-markets-to-suppress-hungarys-opposition/ All this backed by fake news.
> 
> 2) Trump - I don´t really have to tell you, do I? Although I believe there are a couple of Trump supporters on PF. But a racist is a dangerous and vile person.
> 
> 3) DUP - wants e.g. to deny women to right for abortion. UK law does not apply to NI. " Northern Ireland's law on abortion, specifically its lack of provision in cases of fatal foetal abnormality or where the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...emale-premier-arlene-foster-court-ruling-rape . So in comparison to someone calling a politician "stupid woman" brexiteers support DUP but find Corbyn insulting women.
> 
> 4) Le Penn - a 100% racist and a vile person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen
> 
> My question: what does it tell of Brexit, if all of them think that Brexit represents their values and helps their causes? I could ask further that how many slogans and claims brexiteers have are excactly the same as theirs? I can´t see any difference between Brexit, Trump. Le Penn and Orbin.
> 
> @noushka05 If you haven't read this link, you might find it extremely interesting.
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/9/13/17823488/hungary-democracy-authoritarianism-trump
> 
> Orban needs to be exposed fully and anyone who would support his populist ideals is a threat to all our future freedoms.


That is such a well thought out post. It isnt a coincidence that the worst people on the planet support brexit, is it?

And thank you for the reference to the link. Notice how neo nazi Steve Bannon's name crops up again & again. He is mastermind strategist, now advising Mogg, Johnson & co. '_Lest we forget'? _ Terrifyingly, its clear many people are forgetting. They have once again fallen for the scapegoating of minorites. nationalism, jingoism & the vacuous slogans.

_It's not for nothing that Steve Bannon, who has called Orbán "the most significant guy on the scene right now," is currently in Europe building an organization - called "the Movement" - aimed at spreading Orbán's populist politics across the continent._


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> It isnt a coincidence that the worst people on the planet support brexit, is it?


Bit of an inaccurate quote as you don't know everyone from either side. Also there are many different ways of quantifying the 'worst' people. They could be the worst for racist views, or they could be the worst for swooning politicians for massive monetary gain and holding their bank balance as higher in their esteem than anyone else.

So yeh, bit of an inaccurate one


----------



## mewtoo

noushka05 said:


> the tory extreme right


The Conservative Party doesn't have an extreme right.
There are no anarcho-capitalists in the Conservative Party, nor in any of the parties.
UKIP are the closest to this, as they want to minimise the function of government, because the less government you have, the more freedom the people have.

You'll probably never meet an anarcho-capitalist in real life. You'll find a few on places like /pol/, but it's usually 17 year old kids who think it sounds cool to have no government so that everyone contracts with each other for services. When they grow up a bit, they realise that it'd just lead to something like Bartertown out of Beyond Thunderdome, so they go off the idea, flirt with libertarianism into their mid to late twenties, then settle on nationalism when they've learned enough.


----------



## mewtoo

Did someone say that the worst people on the planet support Brexit?

LOL!

Oh dear.

The globalists oppose Brexit, and the globalists are amongst the worst people on the planet.

First we had the commies (pure evil) then we had the Nazis (evil but not as bad as commies), and now we have globalists (don't have enough power yet to be as evil as commies, but will be worse than commies if they succeed).

Feels good to stick one to the globalists. We've done it, the Yanks have done it, the Hungarians and Poles are doing it, the French have been doing it every weekend for three months. More and more people are realising that living as slaves for the glory of bureaucrats and corporate executives doesn't sound like a good idea.


----------



## mewtoo

Something amusing is happening at the moment: France and Germany are having a bit of an argument. The argument is over Russian gas for future supply to Germany through a new Bulgarian pipeline. Germany has negotiated a discount for its gas, to be subsidised by increased gas prices for the rest of the EU countries. The French are upset because they believed that the EU was run for the benefit of Germany AND France to the cost of all others, but the Germans are pretty much going ahead and making it just about Germany, as much as they can get away with it. So, the French are crying because they think that they should be getting subsidised gas, just like the Germans. Boo hoo.

Some of us have known for a long time that the EU is merely German domination of Europe without guns (until the EU army is up and running of course). For those who haven't worked this out yet, point your Googling fingers towards Selmayr. You may find some interesting information along the way.


----------



## Magyarmum

mewtoo said:


> Did someone say that the worst people on the planet support Brexit?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Oh dear.
> 
> The globalists oppose Brexit, and the globalists are amongst the worst people on the planet.
> 
> First we had the commies (pure evil) then we had the Nazis (evil but not as bad as commies), and now we have globalists (don't have enough power yet to be as evil as commies, but will be worse than commies if they succeed).
> 
> Feels good to stick one to the globalists. We've done it, the Yanks have done it, the Hungarians and Poles are doing it, the French have been doing it every weekend for three months. More and more people are realising that living as slaves for the glory of bureaucrats and corporate executives doesn't sound like a good idea.


Thank you! I haven't laughed so much for a long time!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/11...g-many-alternatives-to-a-hard-irish-border-vi
> 
> *A Berlin Wall in Ireland? The EU is overlooking many alternatives to a hard Irish border *


If I'm reading that correctly, it suggests only one alternative: that Ireland (who had absolutely no say in the position they've been landed in by the UK) should voluntarily withdraw from the Customs Union and be subject to whatever customs checks are required between it and the EU until the UK sorts itself out.

Perhaps I'm joining Arnie in the cynical camp, but I'd expect hell to put in a bulk order for ice skates and antifreeze before that happens...


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> If I'm reading that correctly, it suggests only one alternative: that Ireland (who had absolutely no say in the position they've been landed in by the UK) should voluntarily withdraw from the Customs Union and be subject to whatever customs checks are required between it and the EU until the UK sorts itself out.
> 
> Perhaps I'm joining Arnie in the cynical camp, but I'd expect hell to put in a bulk order for ice skates and antifreeze before that happens...


Brexit does not require a hard border with Ireland. The WTO does not demand such a thing.
If the EU wants a hard border on its side, it may do so.

The Irish will want to leave the EU in a couple of years in any case.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> There were two types of Brexiteers:
> 
> 1. Those who voted for the principle of being a self-governing nation once again. These were the honourable Brexiteers and were in the majority. For richer or poorer, they knew the value of freedom over slavery.
> 2. Those who hadn't seen a perceived economic advantage of being in the EU and therefore voted against it on those grounds. These were the less honourable Brexiteers and were in the minority.
> 
> If the EU had recirculated more money to Britain's working class, then we would not have voted to leave the EU. There are not enough people in the UK who understand that living free is more important than the perception of wealth.
> 
> Special thanks go to Barack Obama who stood there, as our own Prime minister stood next to him grinning, and threatened us. He helped to shore up the Leave vote for sure.


You do have a singularly assertive way of putting across your opinion, don't you. One that seems to brook no argument.  I hope you won't take offence to a reply crafted in a similar format, because I disagree with you pretty much completely.

Firstly, though, I do find it a little difficult to take seriously a reference to our relationship with the EU as 'slavery'. I'm not an expert on the 16th - 19th centuries, but I think I'm right in considering the position as being similar to that in the Roman Empire, on which I have greater knowledge, so I'm pretty sure the slaves couldn't just take a sovereign decision to stop being slaves. The UK have chosen to swap the rules of the EU for the rules of an agreement yet to be made with the EU, and to forgo some of the benefits of EU membership in order to do so.

Being interested in facts, I wonder what the exact split of the honourable and dishonourable would be. Do you have the figures, totalling 17,410,742?

"There are not enough people in the UK who understand that living free is more important than the perception of wealth." I think you probably mean that there are not enough people in the UK, in your estimation, who agree with your point of view and analysis of the situation.

To put a counter, and equally firmly held and valid view; in my opinion there are far too many people for whom the perception of tribal integrity through isolation, and the feeling of self-worth through vicarious association, has lingered far too long from the days when it was evolutionarily advantageous, and is now a significant danger to the future of mankind and the planet.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> Brexit does not require a hard border with Ireland. The WTO does not demand such a thing.
> If the EU wants a hard border on its side, it may do so.
> 
> The Irish will want to leave the EU in a couple of years in any case.


The UK is fine with the smuggling, is it?

And that the EU should change its own rules because we have chosen to leave is of course simply the way it should be?


----------



## mewtoo

Of course you disagree with me.
I remember you from before, and you don't believe that there should be borders or countries.
I am a nationalist, and acknowledge that borders and countries are needed so that different peoples can exist in peace in their own lands to practice their own way of life and preserve themselves for the future.

If I were to say "I don't think that Jews should be put in gas chambers", someone might come along and say, "I disagree with you pretty much completely", but that does not mean that the differing opinions are equal. Only the right to express opinions is equal. The substance of those opinions are not. Some opinions are better than others.



Arnie83 said:


> I do find it a little difficult to take seriously a reference to our relationship with the EU as 'slavery'. I'm not an expert on the 16th - 19th centuries, but I think I'm right in considering the position as being similar to that in the Roman Empire


Human societies are based upon a relationship between farmers and cattle. The farmers are the elites/ ruling class/ etc, and the cattle are the main body of the population.
As time has gone on, the farmers have created more efficient ways of extracting wealth and power from the cattle.
In ancient times, the farmers would pour enormous resources into keeping the cattle passive so that they could be milked. An enormous force of men armed with spears is expensive to maintain.
In modern times, the farmers have created ways in which the cattle can be milked with the minimum of investment. They have created a way in which the cattle will attack those who step out of line.

My system, in which the government is small, the people have the freedom to speak freely, and are free to exist as a distinct people within a country defined by borders, works, and the people are happy.
Your system, in which the government is large, the people are not free, and there are no borders in which a people can practice their way of life, does not work, and the people are not happy.

My opinion is superior to yours in this regard, because it is morally sound and is in line with what works in reality.
Yours is a dystopian view. It cannot work, it does not work, and has no value except for a bureaucrat on an enormous salary or a corporate executive who wants to buy another yacht.

It would be like if you said that capitalism is better than socialism, and I said that socialism is better than capitalism - your opinion would be the superior of the two.



Arnie83 said:


> sovereign decision to stop being slaves.


A country has X amount of sovereignty, and this sovereignty can be chipped away at until it has none.
In the UK, we still had enough left to be able to have a vote on EU membership, although we were only allowed this vote because *they* were certain that they would win. If they thought that they would lose, then we would not have had a vote.



Arnie83 said:


> The UK have chosen to swap the rules of the EU for the rules of an agreement yet to be made with the EU, and to forgo some of the benefits of EU membership in order to do so.


There are no benefits to being in the EU, because there are no benefits to living under a foreign dictatorship.
Even if the EU was to throw us a few scraps here and there, it is still better to be a sovereign nation than a province in globalist dictatorship.



Arnie83 said:


> Being interested in facts, I wonder what the exact split of the honourable and dishonourable would be. Do you have the figures, totalling 17,410,742?


No, but I suggest that you pursue this for me. It'll only take you a thousand lifetimes to realise that you'll never get the exact answer, down to the last person.



Arnie83 said:


> "There are not enough people in the UK who understand that living free is more important than the perception of wealth." I think you probably mean that there are not enough people in the UK, in your estimation, who agree with your point of view and analysis of the situation.


Not at all. It's not a point of view. It's flat fact. Some people can see it, some can't, and some can see it but are easily bribed, hate their people, hate their country, and so on.



Arnie83 said:


> To put a counter, and equally firmly held and valid view; in my opinion there are far too many people for whom the perception of tribal integrity through isolation


Countries are not isolated, except of course for North Korea, but not enough people want to vote for Corbyn's commies, so we'll never be like them :Hilarious



Arnie83 said:


> and the feeling of self-worth through vicarious association


We have a vicarious association with our ancestors, who suffered and died so that we remain free from rule by people other than ourselves.
They conducted themselves with honour so that we can live as free British people.
What a crime it would be to throw away their sacrifice.



Arnie83 said:


> has lingered far too long from the days when it was evolutionarily advantageous, and is now a significant danger to the future of mankind and the planet.


It is still evolutionarily advantageous. The man who "invented" the concept of the EU knew this, which is why he wanted the indigenous peoples of Europe to become extinct in the hope that their replacement could be ruled over more easily.

The globalists, who want to import as many people as they can get away with, care not for the danger to mankind and our planet, through the building of more cities, roads and infrastructure.
Outside of the EU, we have a chance, if we can get the globalists out of government, to protect our natural environment in the UK.

The EU created a projection of how many people they believe that they could fit into each country if needs be.
The figure for the UK is 184 million. For France: 486 million. For the EU as a whole: 4 billion.
That'd be just great for the environment.
Read about it here: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...df/final_report_relocation_of_refugees_en.pdf

Pro-EU people care about the environment just as Labour Party care about the working class and the Conservative Party like to conserve. Or in other words, they don't, but they like other people to think that they do :Hilarious
I am immune to such lies.

Nationalism involves a love of the land, and we would not like to harm this thing we love. Therefore, once sanity returns to us, we can better protect it as a sovereign nation outside of the EU.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> The UK is fine with the smuggling, is it?
> 
> And that the EU should change its own rules because we have chosen to leave is of course simply the way it should be?


Well, the globalist, pro-EU Conservative Party are ok with smuggling, because they allowed the Chinese to get away with it for ages, for which the EU is taking them to court at present; not, of course because smuggling is bad, but because it disadvantaged other EU provinces.

The EU can change its rules if it likes.
Only a traitor would be upset if the EU had to change its rules because we didn't want to be ruled by a foreign dictatorship any more :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Bit of an inaccurate quote as you don't know everyone from either side. Also there are many different ways of quantifying the 'worst' people. They could be the worst for racist views, or they could be the worst for swooning politicians for massive monetary gain and holding their bank balance as higher in their esteem than anyone else.
> 
> So yeh, bit of an inaccurate one


Well, can you name many prominent trusted figures who supported brexit then?

We are on precipice of ecological collapse & catastrophic runaway climate breakdown Alex & Rees Mogg & co see brexit as way to roll back protections on our environment etc. Disaster capitalists are destroying our planet for short term gain you can't get much more wicked than that.

Is this really what you voted for?

*Why disaster capitalists are praying for a no-deal Brexit*
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...saster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment



mewtoo said:


> Did someone say that the worst people on the planet support Brexit?
> 
> Feels good to stick one to the globalists. W*e've done it, the Yanks have done it, the Hungarians and Poles are doing it,* the French have been doing it every weekend for three months. More and more people are realising that living as slaves for the glory of bureaucrats and corporate executives doesn't sound like a good idea.


We've done it? The rise of right wing populism??. As I say, Some have already forgotten 



mewtoo said:


> The Conservative Party doesn't have an extreme right.
> There are no anarcho-capitalists in the Conservative Party, nor in any of the parties.
> UKIP are the closest to this, as they want to minimise the function of government, because the less government you have, the more freedom the people have.
> 
> You'll probably never meet an anarcho-capitalist in real life. You'll find a few on places like /pol/, but it's usually 17 year old kids who think it sounds cool to have no government so that everyone contracts with each other for services. When they grow up a bit, they realise that it'd just lead to something like Bartertown out of Beyond Thunderdome, so they go off the idea, flirt with libertarianism into their mid to late twenties, then settle on nationalism when they've learned enough.


The tory party has shifted so far to the right that its morphing into UKIP. The ideology of Rees Mogg, Redwood, Hannan, Paterson, Johnson et al is as toxic as that of Farage. UKIP/Tories want to minimise government to give more freedom to corporate interests not the people lol.

And for almost a decade the tories have been busy shrinking the state transferring public assets into private pockets under the cover of austerity. You think a small state is a good thing?

UkIP is a platform for free market libertarianism - they are our version of the Tea Party conservatives in the USA. Now parties within a party. Do you want everything to be privatised - including our NHS? Do you want to see big industry completely free to pollute & plunder our environment, to destroy our living planet? This is what their ideology represents. The rich get richer & the poor get poorer, the planet trashed.

.

]


----------



## noushka05

I'm sure it'll be worth it for our 'freedom'?

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston 21h21 hours ago
_The health minister Stephen Hammond has written to a Tory MP to provide assurance to one of the MP's constituents that the NHS is *stockpiling bodybags* as insurance against a no-deal Brexit. This is not a joke. See attached exerts from letter._


----------



## noushka05

The people are right.

*John Simpson*‏Verified account @JohnSimpsonNews Feb 11
_Boris Johnson on Today, @BBCr4today: 'People around the world are going 'wow - they've made this incredible decision to go global''. This is certainly not my experience. From US to China to India to SAfrica, people I'm hearing from think we're opting for imperial nostalgia_

,


----------



## cheekyscrip

mewtoo said:


> Did someone say that the worst people on the planet support Brexit?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Oh dear.
> 
> The globalists oppose Brexit, and the globalists are amongst the worst people on the planet.
> 
> First we had the commies (pure evil) then we had the Nazis (evil but not as bad as commies), and now we have globalists (don't have enough power yet to be as evil as commies, but will be worse than commies if they succeed).
> 
> Feels good to stick one to the globalists. We've done it, the Yanks have done it, the Hungarians and Poles are doing it, the French have been doing it every weekend for three months. More and more people are realising that living as slaves for the glory of bureaucrats and corporate executives doesn't sound like a good idea.


Poles are very divided nation, but majority don't support Brexit.
Even our right wing.

They actually fear that EU without Britain will be a fair game for Germany.

Not mention Polish people working in EU.

So definitely incorrect.
The glory of corporations will be full after Brexit, the Murdoch, Bannon etc...
Less money for working people.

International capital will rule unchecked.

Exactly what you try to oppose!!!!!

Globalism at its worst.


----------



## mewtoo

noushka05 said:


> We've done it? The rise of right wing populism??. As I say, Some have already forgotten


Populism: what's popular with lots of people. Mexico has left wing populism (good luck with that, haha), and other places have right wing populism.
Right wing: capitalism, individual rights, individual responsibility, small-ish government.

"Right wing" is why you're able to be here, commenting in this thread. If you existed under communism or fascism then you might not even be alive to be able to post in the first place.

"Right wing" is just the acceptance of something which a person can observe which works. "Left wing" is the secular equivalent of believing in gods, fairies, pixies, and such like - it's wishful thinking.



noushka05 said:


> The tory party has shifted so far to the right that its morphing into UKIP. The ideology of Rees Mogg, Redwood, Hannan, Paterson, Johnson et al is as toxic as that of Farage. UKIP/Tories want to minimise government to give more freedom to corporate interests not the people lol.


I wonder if you really believe what you are saying, or whether you are an NPC.
Anyway.

The Conservative Party is supposed to be a conservative party. The clue is in the name.
However, it is not.
It's a centre/ centre left entity. It is authoritarian when it is not supposed to be.
The Conservative Party is not "right wing".

Rees-Mogg is a conservative, but more towards the classical liberal side.
Redwood is a conservative.
Hannah is a liberal conservative.
Paterson I don't know.
Johnson says whatever he thinks will further his career.
Farage is a conservative. Conservatism isn't toxic though. It's the reason that we are still alive.

UKIP want to minimise government to give freedom to the people, not to corporations. Corporations require big government in order to have special privileges.
The current state of the Conservative Party want smaller government than Labour do, but they are still a big government party. The current Conservative Party serve corporate interests. Globalists serve corporate interests.
If you are a globalist (ie. if you support the EU), then you support corporate interests over the interests of the people. Whether or not you are aware of this is irrelevant. The EU primarily serves the interests of German engineering and banking corporations.



noushka05 said:


> And for almost a decade the tories have been busy shrinking the state transferring public assets into private pockets under the cover of austerity. You think a small state is a good thing?


The Conservative Party has cut out some of the bloat in the public sector (not nearly enough), but never had its bonfire of the quangoes.
The Conservative Party does not serve the people, as it is not a nationalist party. It is a globalist party, and hence serve corporate interests.

Small state is a good thing because the people are more free, there is less waste, it encourages personal responsibility, and requires less taxes to function. Big state = tyranny.



noushka05 said:


> UkIP is a platform for free market libertarianism - they are our version of the Tea Party conservatives in the USA. Now parties within a party. Do you want everything to be privatised - including our NHS? Do you want to see big industry completely free to pollute & plunder our environment, to destroy our living planet? This is what their ideology represents. The rich get richer & the poor get poorer, the planet trashed.


If private enterprise could deliver an equivalent or better service at a better price, then privatisation would be preferable. That's obvious to anyone.
If it could not, then privatisation would not be the answer.

Big industry would not be free to destroy the environment. Nationalism would not allow for such a thing. Only under anarcho-capitalism or communism or globalism would the destruction of the environment be possible.

You seem to have been misinformed about political reality. That's why I wonder about the NPC thing. Hmmmm.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Well, can you name many prominent trusted figures who supported brexit then?


Anyone I mention you will find some small detail that you will extrapolate into them being linked to the Nazi's or something else. I highly doubt Jacob Rees-Mogg is having consistent conversation and agrees with all of the views of Tommy Robinson as you said earlier


----------



## cheekyscrip

Murdoch, Banks and other sponsors of Brexit do you think they are paying for with common people in mind?
JRM, BoJo and the rest of extreme Tory party are the most vociferous and they do for working classes?

How perverse is your logic to think that people will enjoy more freedom and be better of?

Why do think majority of Labour and LibDem support Remain?

Are you stuck with slogans on the buses?

How on Earth we are to be better of with economic slow down and recession???

Listen to Bank of England, independent body responsible for economic forecasts.

We had healthy growth before referendum, we were to close budget deficit soon...

Sales are falling, prices are rising, pound crashed.

That is so far Brexit achievements not to mention the rise in racial abuse and attacks on foreigners.

Political crisis and stockpiling supplies.

Call it Project Fear and stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes shut.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> Murdoch, Banks and other sponsors of Brexit do you think they are paying for with common people in mind?
> JRM, BoJo and the rest of extreme Tory party are the most vociferous and they do for working classes?
> 
> How perverse is your logic to think that people will enjoy more freedom and be better of?
> 
> Why do think majority of Labour and LibDem support Remain?
> 
> Are you stuck with slogans on the buses?
> 
> How on Earth we are to be better of with economic slow down and recession???
> 
> Listen to Bank of England, independent body responsible for economic forecasts.
> 
> We had healthy growth before referendum, we were to close budget deficit soon...
> 
> Sales are falling, prices are rising, pound crashed.
> 
> That is so far Brexit achievements not to mention the rise in racial abuse and attacks on foreigners.
> 
> Political crisis and stockpiling supplies.
> 
> Call it Project Fear and stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes shut.


Are you speaking to me directly or just voicing this out? Me saying that JRM isn't having consistent conversation with Tommy Robinson doesn't mean he is the perfect person. Hell I had never heard of him since a few months ago as I wasn't that interested in politics.

Mentioning the bus etc. that horse has been flogged to death already. It is project fear and the government lacked the balls to deliver on the referendum earlier so we are now left in a bigger mess than before. If remain tactics of delaying ,putting in motions, having a panel of only remainers to create a plan to leave the EU etc etc didn't happen we would have had a better deal on the table that will have been agreed on in November. Not having to negotiate and continually delay the revealing of the deal when we are less than 2 months from the biggest political motion our country has seen in 50 years


----------



## mewtoo

cheekyscrip said:


> Murdoch, Banks and other sponsors of Brexit do you think they are paying for with common people in mind?
> JRM, BoJo and the rest of extreme Tory party are the most vociferous and they do for working classes?


Big business is actually on the side of Remain. Didn't you know that?
They absolutely love it, because the constant influx of workers not only holds down wages, but means that they don't have to invest in training British people how to do a job. Why spend money on training, when you can get a pre-trained Eastern European willing to work for minimum wage?
The love it, and I'm sure that they are thankful to the Remain voters for doing their best to make it possible for them to buy more yachts with the money they save on their wage bill.



cheekyscrip said:


> How perverse is your logic to think that people will enjoy more freedom and be better of?


A better question would be to ask you how perverse is your logic to ask how perverse the logic is of someone who realises that living free in a sovereign nation is better than living under a dictatorship.



cheekyscrip said:


> Why do think majority of Labour and LibDem support Remain?


Let's see.
Public sector bodies get free money from the EU, which actually comes from their own taxes, but don't tell them that. Shhhh.
They're afraid that out of the EU, the UK would have a right wing government, and they can't have that, because Thatcher caused their grandad to lose his job down the pit (she didn't really).



cheekyscrip said:


> Are you stuck with slogans on the buses?


Ah.
Suggestions on busses.
"Let's fund the NHS instead"

"Let's have a pizza tonight"
"Let's holiday in ****** this summer"
"Let's go down the pub"



cheekyscrip said:


> How on Earth we are to be better of with economic slow down and recession???


Economic slow-downs and recessions happen every so often, even though Gordon Brown amusingly claimed to have stopped them.
Germany is at the heart of the EU and it's in recession. This must mean that the EU causes recessions :Hilarious



cheekyscrip said:


> Listen to Bank of England, independent body responsible for economic forecasts.


Independent body :Hilarious



cheekyscrip said:


> We had healthy growth before referendum, we were to close budget deficit soon...


We had healthy grown afterwards as well.



cheekyscrip said:


> Sales are falling, prices are rising, pound crashed.


Pound crashed? I must have missed it. Everyone else must have as well.



cheekyscrip said:


> That is so far Brexit achievements not to mention the rise in racial abuse and attacks on foreigners.


Brexit hasn't happened yet, and there has not been a rise in racial abuse or attacks on foreigners.



cheekyscrip said:


> Political crisis and stockpiling supplies.


Political crisis due to the foxes being put in charge of the hen-house. No need for stockpiling though.



cheekyscrip said:


> Call it Project Fear and stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes shut.


Project Fear it is, but this can only be seen if your ears and eyes are clear of obstructions.


----------



## mewtoo

Oh.
Speaking of big business being thankful to remain voters.
I was wondering: have you all collected your free bag of Tesco Value oven chips yet?
The Tesco board of directors wanted to thank you all for keeping their wage bill down, requiring a subsidy in the form of tax credits, paid for by you of course, meaning that they can all send their kids to private schools and buy faster cars and live in bigger houses. Therefore, to show their thanks, if you pop into your local Tesco and whisper "I voted Remain" to the cashier, you will receive a free 1kg bag of Tesco Value oven chips (not crinkle cut), but will have to pay 10p for the plastic bag to take it home in.
Terms and conditions apply: available while stocks last. Not redeemable for the cash equivalent. Chips do not actually contain potato.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> Of course you disagree with me.
> I remember you from before, and you don't believe that there should be borders or countries.
> I am a nationalist, and acknowledge that borders and countries are needed so that different peoples can exist in peace in their own lands to practice their own way of life and preserve themselves for the future.
> 
> If I were to say "I don't think that Jews should be put in gas chambers", someone might come along and say, "I disagree with you pretty much completely", but that does not mean that the differing opinions are equal. Only the right to express opinions is equal. The substance of those opinions are not. Some opinions are better than others.
> 
> Human societies are based upon a relationship between farmers and cattle. The farmers are the elites/ ruling class/ etc, and the cattle are the main body of the population.
> As time has gone on, the farmers have created more efficient ways of extracting wealth and power from the cattle.
> In ancient times, the farmers would pour enormous resources into keeping the cattle passive so that they could be milked. An enormous force of men armed with spears is expensive to maintain.
> In modern times, the farmers have created ways in which the cattle can be milked with the minimum of investment. They have created a way in which the cattle will attack those who step out of line.
> 
> My system, in which the government is small, the people have the freedom to speak freely, and are free to exist as a distinct people within a country defined by borders, works, and the people are happy.
> Your system, in which the government is large, the people are not free, and there are no borders in which a people can practice their way of life, does not work, and the people are not happy.
> 
> My opinion is superior to yours in this regard, because it is morally sound and is in line with what works in reality.
> Yours is a dystopian view. It cannot work, it does not work, and has no value except for a bureaucrat on an enormous salary or a corporate executive who wants to buy another yacht.
> 
> It would be like if you said that capitalism is better than socialism, and I said that socialism is better than capitalism - your opinion would be the superior of the two.
> 
> A country has X amount of sovereignty, and this sovereignty can be chipped away at until it has none.
> In the UK, we still had enough left to be able to have a vote on EU membership, although we were only allowed this vote because *they* were certain that they would win. If they thought that they would lose, then we would not have had a vote.
> 
> There are no benefits to being in the EU, because there are no benefits to living under a foreign dictatorship.
> Even if the EU was to throw us a few scraps here and there, it is still better to be a sovereign nation than a province in globalist dictatorship.
> 
> No, but I suggest that you pursue this for me. It'll only take you a thousand lifetimes to realise that you'll never get the exact answer, down to the last person.
> 
> Not at all. It's not a point of view. It's flat fact. Some people can see it, some can't, and some can see it but are easily bribed, hate their people, hate their country, and so on.
> 
> Countries are not isolated, except of course for North Korea, but not enough people want to vote for Corbyn's commies, so we'll never be like them :Hilarious
> 
> We have a vicarious association with our ancestors, who suffered and died so that we remain free from rule by people other than ourselves.
> They conducted themselves with honour so that we can live as free British people.
> What a crime it would be to throw away their sacrifice.
> 
> It is still evolutionarily advantageous. The man who "invented" the concept of the EU knew this, which is why he wanted the indigenous peoples of Europe to become extinct in the hope that their replacement could be ruled over more easily.
> 
> The globalists, who want to import as many people as they can get away with, care not for the danger to mankind and our planet, through the building of more cities, roads and infrastructure.
> Outside of the EU, we have a chance, if we can get the globalists out of government, to protect our natural environment in the UK.
> 
> The EU created a projection of how many people they believe that they could fit into each country if needs be.
> The figure for the UK is 184 million. For France: 486 million. For the EU as a whole: 4 billion.
> That'd be just great for the environment.
> Read about it here: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...df/final_report_relocation_of_refugees_en.pdf
> 
> Pro-EU people care about the environment just as Labour Party care about the working class and the Conservative Party like to conserve. Or in other words, they don't, but they like other people to think that they do :Hilarious
> I am immune to such lies.
> 
> Nationalism involves a love of the land, and we would not like to harm this thing we love. Therefore, once sanity returns to us, we can better protect it as a sovereign nation outside of the EU.




Marvellous stuff. Complete nonsense, but great fun.

This bit right at the start - "you don't believe that there should be borders or countries" - is quite wrong, but the adamantine certainty of what you built upon the false premise is an enjoyable read.

But I think your contribution to the thread is not one with which I am going to engage any more. It's a bit too 'out there' for my taste.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Marvellous stuff. Complete nonsense, but great fun.
> 
> This bit right at the start - "you don't believe that there should be borders or countries" - is quite wrong, but the adamantine certainty of what you built upon the false premise is an enjoyable read.
> 
> But I think your contribution to the thread is not one with which I am going to engage any more. It's a bit too 'out there' for my taste.


We've argued before. I have a few hours of spare time, come here to have a bit of fun, become busy with work for the next few months, and then come back to help out my fellow embattled Brexiteers.

You always say that you're not going to engage with me any more. You do it when you realise that you're up against someone who will cause you emotional pain by defeating you :Hilarious
I get that a lot.

See you in a few months.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> You do have a singularly assertive way of putting across your opinion, don't you. One that seems to brook no argument. t.


To be fair, there are more than one of those on the remain side here.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> To be fair, there are more than one of those on the remain side here.


This is true, but they tend to use more than just titanium opinions and do not adopt a tone of unquestioned superiority.


----------



## Arnie83

Good news, as far as it goes ...

*Brexit: No-deal plan for Channel Tunnel operations*

Trains will be permitted to use the Channel Tunnel for three months if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, under a proposed European Commission law.

The planned legislation, published on Tuesday, will give the UK and France time to renegotiate the terms under which the railway service operates.

The law must be agreed by the European Parliament and EU member states.​


----------



## kimthecat

> This bit right at the start - "you don't believe that there should be borders or countries" - is quite wrong,
> .


I think you give the impression you do .


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> This is true, but they tend to use more than just titanium opinions and do not adopt a tone of unquestioned superiority.


Says you


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> This is true, but they tend to use more than just titanium opinions and do not adopt a tone of unquestioned superiority.


When opinion matches fact, it is titanium.

Like when my maths teacher said "2+2=4", I said, "well that's just your opinion", but then I realised that it was true, so I approached him and said, "your opinion is titanium" and gave him an apple.

Anyway, a person can have whatever opinion they like about whether or not they want to stay in or leave the EU, but when it comes to what's best, then that's a fixed thing.

Some people can run faster than other people, some people can paint better pictures than other people, some people can have better opinions about Brexit than other people.
I think they call it "diversity".

Just don't ask me who I think is the best Premiership team because any opinion I offered in that regard would be garbage. I know nothing about the Premiership and I don't want to know anything about the Premiership.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> This is true, but they tend to use more than just titanium opinions and do not adopt a tone of unquestioned superiority.


Don't they? You could have fooled me!


----------



## mewtoo

An old friend of a mine, whom I've known since childhood, was always against the EU. He knew enough about it to know what it was. Voted UKIP in the EU elections.
Then, a couple of years before the Brexit vote, the firm he worked for was given money, year on year, by the EU, for some service or another.
When it came to the Brexit vote, he voted to stay in the EU. His reason was that it would cost him a couple of thousand a year if we left the EU, because of the free money his firm was getting. This money was his second holiday money.

Therefore, it revealed him in a new light.
He was willing to sell out his principles for money, and not even very much money.
He was willing to sell the rights of his two daughters for money.
He was willing to sell the safety of his daughters for money.

I knew then that if we had lived under some commie or fascist government, he would have taken money to sell out his friends.

He's a good guy to have down the pub, but the trust is gone.

Brexit was a revelation for anyone who was interested.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I think you give the impression you do .


Maybe in a few hundred years. I think it would be silly to suggest that they should disappear now; there are too many who think that the arbitrary splitting of essentially homogeneous people into competing administrative groups is somehow the 'right' way for us to live, as opposed to just a phase we are going through.

But we have counties with borders in the UK. That seems a perfectly harmless and even stimulating situation which I would like eventually to see reflected globally. (Except I'll be dead by then.)


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Says you


My opinions are no more or less valid than anyone else's when both are based on facts which allow for different interpretations. I hope no-one gets the impression that I think I am superior in any way. That would be very wide of the mark indeed!


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> My opinions are no more or less valid than anyone else's when both are based on facts which allow for different interpretations. I hope no-one gets the impression that I think I am superior in any way. That would be very wide of the mark indeed!


A person who has an opinion which is better than the opinion of another person is not superior to that person; it is his opinion which is superior.

A person who can run the 100m a second faster than another person, is not superior to that person; it is his sprinting which is superior.

And so on.

There are three scenarios I can think of in which opinions are of equal value:
1. When the opinion is completely personal to the person giving the opinion, such as "what is your favourite colour".
2. When both opinions are the same.
3. When reality isn't knowable.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Maybe in a few hundred years. I think it would be silly to suggest that they should disappear now; there are too many who think that the arbitrary splitting of essentially homogeneous people into competing administrative groups is somehow the 'right' way for us to live, as opposed to just a phase we are going through.


People are not homogeneous, on a global scale. Genetic differences code for different behavioural phenotypes.

The splitting of peoples is not arbitrary. People did not randomly choose to develop different cultures and have different beliefs. These cultures and beliefs developed due to different needs and wants and circumstances.

Do you think that if you put together two groups of people, with Group A believing that cannibalism is bad, and Group B believing that cannibalism is good, together, that they will be able to live in peace?

How naive it would be to believe that all human groups are the same and it is simply the soil upon which they stand which determines their behaviour.

Borders exist so that distinct and different peoples can live in peace and continue their way of life.

I've never heard of an open borders advocate who leaves their front door open or tears down their garden fences. All people are the same. There is nothing special about their family. They should allow anyone to walk into their house and treat it as their own, and if they want to play the drums at 3am, then they should let them, because any rules which they have in their house are purely arbitrary.

Yerv gorra laff.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I believe that all divisions are very much artificial and people have more in common than what divide them.
I believe that borders should gradually disappear.
I remember that not long ago some people believed different races should be kept apart 

Some still do.

Those were borders. 
If eventually all humans would be of mixed race? Is that bad?
People developed into different nations and groups as a result of isolation and competing for resources.
The more division the more isolation and more fighting between different groups.

I can Imagine like Lennon did.

But then I am aging hippie.

If we don’t erase those divisions we will destroy ourselves and many other species along us.

Thus I oppose anything that leads us into that.

The surest supporters of Brexit are Trump and Putin. Not world leaders I would choose to follow.


----------



## Elles

We didn’t think much about erasing cultures such as American Indian, or Aborigine. You want that we lose all diversity and heritage? What? We all become one race, one religion? Which one?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> We didn't think much about erasing cultures such as American Indian, or Aborigine. You want that we lose all diversity and heritage? What? We all become one race, one religion? Which one?


I said about erasing divisions and isolation. 
But yes, cultures will mix and merge.
Thus we have sushi and curry houses, paella and hummus.

Tea and coffee. Cotton and rice. Chocolate.

I am very happy with keeping traditions and inviting all to join.

Cultures are fluid and forever evolving.

Native Indians were destroyed because of racism that justified their extermination, they were not treated as fellow human beings.

Did I say anything about erasing other ethnic groups than mine?

What give you that impression?

Native Indians did not merge with the invaders?


----------



## Elles

Not all other than yours, all including yours. It’s pie in the sky at the moment. There are plenty of traditions and cultures we wouldn’t want.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Not all other than yours, all including yours. It's pie in the sky at the moment. There are plenty of traditions and cultures we wouldn't want.


Definitely true.

Merging has good sides as it might get rid of some horrible relics like genital mutilation.


----------



## Elles

FGM to keep little girls virgin when rape is so prevalent in their culture and society, yes.  Most certainly something we can do without. There are an awful lot of traditions that we would like to see wiped out, that the people don’t believe there’s anything wrong with and think quite normal, which it is for them. It’s difficult, if we want to respect other cultures, but don’t actually want them.


----------



## Elles

That’s what I meant when I said we all become one race, one culture. Which one? We all think our own is the best one.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Maybe in a few hundred years.


Quicker than Brexit , then !


----------



## KittenKong

I'll leave you to insert your own quotes :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Is that Jimmy S.... oh no it’s Jeremy. 

Picture paints a thousand words. :Hilarious Indeed.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> My opinions are no more or less valid than anyone else's when both are based on facts which allow for different interpretations. I hope no-one gets the impression that I think I am superior in any way. That would be very wide of the mark indeed!


I wasn't talking about you. That could have been worded better I admit.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I said about erasing divisions and isolation.
> But yes, cultures will mix and merge.
> Thus we have sushi and curry houses, paella and hummus.
> 
> Tea and coffee. Cotton and rice. Chocolate.
> 
> I am very happy with keeping traditions and inviting all to join.
> 
> Cultures are fluid and forever evolving.
> 
> Native Indians were destroyed because of racism that justified their extermination, they were not treated as fellow human beings.
> 
> Did I say anything about erasing other ethnic groups than mine?
> 
> What give you that impression?
> 
> Native Indians did not merge with the invaders?


Ah! The melting pot theory!

I remember it well from my student days.sitting in the Kardomah putting the world to rights!

How arrogant we were and how little we knew - not that I know much more 60 years later, but I hope I'm a little wiser than I was then!

For those who don't know how the term came into being here are some articles to read ......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot

https://wilsonquarterly.com/stories/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-american-melting-pot/

*THE RISE AND FALL OF THE AMERICAN "MELTING POT"*

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-been-a-multicultural-metropolis-1436687.html

*The world's melting pot: London has always been a multicultural metropolis*


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Quicker than Brexit , then !


It'll be a photo finish, the way it's going!


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I said about erasing divisions and isolation.
> But yes, cultures will mix and merge.
> Thus we have sushi and curry houses, paella and hummus.
> 
> Tea and coffee. Cotton and rice. Chocolate.
> 
> I am very happy with keeping traditions and inviting all to join.
> 
> Cultures are fluid and forever evolving.
> 
> Native Indians were destroyed because of racism that justified their extermination, they were not treated as fellow human beings.
> 
> Did I say anything about erasing other ethnic groups than mine?
> 
> What give you that impression?
> 
> Native Indians did not merge with the invaders?


I think one of the major influences on culture change is already with us in the form of social media. Though there are some countries that try to control it, apparently for fear of exactly the cultural influence we are talking about, it will happen.

When I was a lad some people had pen-friends in some strange land 'abroad'. Now the youngsters have friends all over the world and can have a real-time conversation with all of them at once. Cultural mix is an absolute inevitability and I think it is should be welcomed and encouraged rather than feared and resisted.

And why should they merge into one? There are plenty of little cultural differences between me and people in, say, Yorkshire or Scotland! We've been the 'United' Kingdom for 300 years but they still use words I wouldn't understand, eat foods I wouldn't want to try, and have traditions all their own. I have never heard anyone describe in any detail a 'British culture' that is being threatened by outsiders, because most of the values we apply to ourselves are universal.

What is special to the British? Eating roast beef at Sunday lunchtime? Hands up all those on here who don't have that as part of their 'culture'!


----------



## mewtoo

cheekyscrip said:


> I believe that all divisions are very much artificial and people have more in common than what divide them.
> I believe that borders should gradually disappear.
> I remember that not long ago some people believed different races should be kept apart
> 
> Some still do.
> 
> Those were borders.
> If eventually all humans would be of mixed race? Is that bad?
> People developed into different nations and groups as a result of isolation and competing for resources.
> The more division the more isolation and more fighting between different groups.
> 
> I can Imagine like Lennon did.
> 
> But then I am aging hippie.
> 
> If we don't erase those divisions we will destroy ourselves and many other species along us.
> 
> Thus I oppose anything that leads us into that.
> 
> The surest supporters of Brexit are Trump and Putin. Not world leaders I would choose to follow.


Great stuff.

Remove your front door. Remove all barriers around your property, as it is not your property. It belongs to everyone. Borders are bad. Orange man bad.
Post your address here. I'll make sure that you have a dozen extra people sleeping in your bed tonight. Don't forget to feed them in the morning. Insert John Lennon lyrics here 4 feelz.
Russian bots.

:Hilarious


----------



## mewtoo

Elles said:


> We didn't think much about erasing cultures such as American Indian, or Aborigine. You want that we lose all diversity and heritage? What? We all become one race, one religion? Which one?


What was a common factor of the American Indians or Australian Aborigines?

Think about it for a second.......

If your answer is "they had no borders and hence no country", then your answer is the correct one! Yay!

They had no border, and no country, so they had no army, and their land was free to be conquered and settled by whoever came along.

Which is exactly my point, isn't it.

If you have no border and no country then the land does not belong to you. Anyone can have it.

Same with your house. Try removing your front door and tearing down any fences or walls. Your house and garden will not belong to you for long.


----------



## Arnie83

I think the leaders of the EU and its member states would do well to read and take note of this piece in the Grauniad ...

*The EU looks like the Soviet Union in 1991 - on the verge of collapse*

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-soviet-union-european-elections-george-soros


----------



## mewtoo




----------



## mewtoo




----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 393091
> 
> I'll leave you to insert your own quotes :Hilarious


Whats the context, is one a promotional shoot, whilst the other may be TM being shown around a cancer ward where laughing and hollering isn't that socially acceptable


----------



## mewtoo

AlexPed2393 said:


> Whats the context, is one a promotional shoot, whilst the other may be TM being shown around a cancer ward where laughing and hollering isn't that socially acceptable


Exactly.
Corbyn's stuff is stage-managed. He's a commie. Dear Leader, and all that.

The idea of loads of free money (which is used as a bribe for buying votes) is an attractive one for some, but once he'd destroyed the economy, then the smiles would turn to tears.

A friend of mine, who was a midwife, was sacked because the culture was one of "everyone has to support Labour", but she didn't, so she was ousted. She made the mistake of saying that she voted Conservative.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ission-Ombudsman-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker

*EU flouted its rules by promoting Juncker aide Selmayr to top Brussels job says watchdog*

https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/109855
-
*Decision in the joint inquiry in cases 488/2018/KR and 514/2018/KR on the European Commission's appointment of a new Secretary-General*


----------



## AlexPed2393

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47218687

Basically the article is asking the question of whether Theresa May is delaying the final vote or not.

Personally I think she is to try and scare MP's into voting for the deal to eradicate a 'no deal scenario'. Anyone else's thoughts?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ission-Ombudsman-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker
> 
> *EU flouted its rules by promoting Juncker aide Selmayr to top Brussels job says watchdog*
> 
> https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/109855
> -
> *Decision in the joint inquiry in cases 488/2018/KR and 514/2018/KR on the European Commission's appointment of a new Secretary-General*


Well doesn't that make them look even more like a bunch of snakes


----------



## mewtoo

AlexPed2393 said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47218687
> 
> Basically the article is asking the question of whether Theresa May is delaying the final vote or not.
> 
> Personally I think she is to try and scare MP's into voting for the deal to eradicate a 'no deal scenario'. Anyone else's thoughts?


No deal = Brexit.
Theresa May is a remainer, and as such as Prime Minister is the UK's top traitor and the EU's top agent in the UK.
There have been no negotiations; only collusion.

The play is to make it *look* like we have left the EU, but to keep us closely tied to it so that we can rejoin properly at a later date.


----------



## AlexPed2393

mewtoo said:


> No deal = Brexit.


Not particularly, maybe with the deal she has now using that deal would basically mean we are stuck with the EU. If a different deal was made by people who wished to leave, then a more satisfactory deal in the eye of leavers, would still be what many would call Brexit.


----------



## mewtoo

AlexPed2393 said:


> Not particularly, maybe with the deal she has now using that deal would basically mean we are stuck with the EU. If a different deal was made by people who wished to leave, then a more satisfactory deal in the eye of leavers, would still be what many would call Brexit.


No deal = pure Brexit. That's what we voted for.
The only deal which would satisfy Brexit is one in which we negotiate a trading relationship with the EU but which still extricates us from the EU.

Treason May's "deal" isn't Brexit - it's smoke and mirrors to keep us tied to the EU so that we can rejoin in full at a later date. It's designed to fool people.

Yesterday's revelation about Olly Robbins is the nail in the coffin. Now, everyone knows that we have been betrayed all along.

Olly Robbins was president of a society called the Oxford Reform Club, which promoted an EU superstate. He is also a communist.

Now, what is a man like that doing being put in charge of colluding with the EU?
Oooops, I just answered my own question, didn't I :Hilarious

The mood on the political forums today is one of outrage. People have been calling for executions of the traitors for a long time now, but today the mood is particularly bloodthirsty.

Check out the top comment on Guido's article: https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/robbins-reveals-dishonesty-of-governments-stance/


----------



## emmaviolet

Ford now preparing to move production out of Britain.

It's all going so well, it's like a dream come true for the UK!


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> When opinion matches fact, it is titanium.
> 
> Like when my maths teacher said "2+2=4", I said, "well that's just your opinion", but then I realised that it was true, so I approached him and said, "your opinion is titanium" and gave him an apple.


*shrug* I can mathematically prove 2+2 equals both 10 and 11.


----------



## Elles

And 22


----------



## Elles

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/09/gm-left-europe-now-ford-plans-to-overhaul-its-operations/


----------



## Elles

They are so using Brexit as an excuse for what they were already doing.


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> *shrug* I can mathematically prove 2+2 equals both 10 and 11.


Just contacted my old maths teacher to downgrade his opinion to copper.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Hi everyone,

I have read most of this thread parts of which I found amusing and other parts I skipped through because of the copy and paste social media stuff and newspaper articles.

I noticed there is alot of fuss over people worrying about leaving the EU.

I voted to leave in 2016 and that is that. I knew why I voted leave but the reasons why I voted leave remain personal to me and that is why I am not explaining why as frankly it is no one elses business. There was no media influence, no TV influence, no influence from campainers, no influence from the junk sent through my letter box and absolutely no one controlled my mind to make me vote leave, it was purely my own decision. 

IMO the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU so that is what should happen. 

Today in the queue at the post office the person in front of me was getting his permit to take his car to France in May this year. There is no form filling involved by him the post office clerk only needs to see your driving license and passport and then they fill in a booklet which is your permit to take your vehicle into another European country. The permit lasts 3 years so you do not have to renew it every time you go to Europe. It took the clerk the whole of 5 minutes to do. The process look very simple to me.

As far as I understand things people in the UK will still be able to travel visa free to another European country so things in that respect are remaining unaffected.

Well I have said what I want to say and just want to follow this thread if that is ok as I find it interesting reading different points of view on Brexit?


----------



## mewtoo

Elles said:


> They are so using Brexit as an excuse for what they were already doing.


Government to business: issue a press release blaming your problems on Brexit.

Just like that one from a month or so again in which the lady, when questioned, admitted that they were told to do the Brexit blame thing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

mewtoo said:


> No deal = Brexit.
> Theresa May is a remainer, and as such as Prime Minister is the UK's top traitor and the EU's top agent in the UK.
> There have been no negotiations; only collusion.
> 
> The play is to make it *look* like we have left the EU, but to keep us closely tied to it so that we can rejoin properly at a later date.


:Woot


----------



## mewtoo

ukcatdaddy said:


> There was no media influence, no TV influence, no influence from campainers, no influence from the junk sent through my letter box and absolutely no one controlled my mind to make me vote leave, it was purely my own decision.


You mean that you didn't vote to leave because of a suggestion on the side of a bus or because a Russian Twitter bot told you to?

Come on dude, get with the program. Everyone knows that people voted Leave because of buses and Russians. Oh and also, because we are racists, xenophobes, bigots, Little Englanders, and some other stuff too.


----------



## mewtoo

Happy Paws said:


> :Woot


That's why the Brexit Secretaries keep resigning - once in the job, they realised that it wasn't a real job and they could do no negotiating.
The collusion was run from Number 10 all along.

I'm looking forward to all the whistleblowing which will go on after March 29th.
It'll be delicious.


----------



## Happy Paws2

she decided we are *leaving* and she doesn't care how.


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> What was a common factor of the American Indians or Australian Aborigines?
> 
> Think about it for a second.......
> 
> If your answer is "they had no borders and hence no country", then your answer is the correct one! Yay!
> 
> They had no border, and no country, so they had no army, and their land was free to be conquered and settled by whoever came along.
> 
> Which is exactly my point, isn't it.
> 
> If you have no border and no country then the land does not belong to you. Anyone can have it.
> 
> Same with your house. Try removing your front door and tearing down any fences or walls. Your house and garden will not belong to you for long.


Well, it's an interesting re-interpretation on history certainly.

Curious as to how you personally believe the world should function?


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> Well, it's an interesting re-interpretation on history certainly.
> 
> Curious as to how you personally believe the world should function?


It's not a reinterpretation.

They really did have no borders or countries.
There were no countries in either continent. It was entirely fluid.

How should it function? It's too complex to go into here.
It's complex because of all the variables.
For example, it'd be nice if everywhere could be a democracy, but it cannot, as democracy doesn't suit all peoples. Nor does it work particularly well for those it is suited to.

For our own society, the answer is simple, but on a global scale, very complex.


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> It's not a reinterpretation.
> 
> They really did have no borders or countries.
> There were no countries in either continent. It was entirely fluid.


So 'country' borders are the only ones that count, then.



mewtoo said:


> How should it function? It's too complex to go into here.
> It's complex because of all the variables.
> For example, it'd be nice if everywhere could be a democracy, but it cannot, as democracy doesn't suit all peoples. Nor does it work particularly well for those it is suited to.


Worst form of government, apparently (except for all the others).



mewtoo said:


> *For our own society, the answer is simple*, but on a global scale, very complex.


OK, start there.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> So 'country' borders are the only ones that count, then.


The logical extension of the comment is that when countries are created, with proper borders and everything, you don't get any more wars.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

mewtoo said:


> You mean that you didn't vote to leave because of a suggestion on the side of a bus or because a Russian Twitter bot told you to?
> 
> Come on dude, get with the program. Everyone knows that people voted Leave because of buses and Russians. Oh and also, because we are racists, xenophobes, bigots, Little Englanders, and some other stuff too.


Well if some people want to resort to silly childish name calling let them, does not affect me one bit. I know I am not a xenophobe or racist. The little Englanders comment you made me chuckle, is that supposed to be an insult of some kind? I see lots of adverts and suggestions on red buses.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> The logical extension of the comment is that when countries are created, with proper borders and everything, you don't get any more wars.


But that's not true as we all (should) know. The victors of war will often punish the loser(s) by taking away part of their country and thus altering the borders and demography of that country.


----------



## mewtoo

ukcatdaddy said:


> Well if some people want to resort to silly childish name calling let them, does not affect me one bit. I know I am not a xenophobe or racist. The little Englanders comment you made me chuckle, is that supposed to be an insult of some kind? I see lots of adverts and suggestions on red buses.


I'm a Brexiteer as well.
I was joking about how Brexiteers have been labelled as all of those hurty names, and apparently we voted to leave the EU because of a suggestion on a bus and some Russians on Twitter :Hilarious


----------



## mewtoo

Jesthar said:


> So 'country' borders are the only ones that count, then.


No. it means this.
Some people here do not like borders, because they think that everyone will be able to mix and live in peace.

In practice, this does not work.

Countries, with borders, exist so that a distinct people, with a distinct culture, can exist within that land.
In North America and Australia there were no countries with borders to defend the land for the people who lived upon it, so that when the settlers arrived, they found merely land to be settled.
They mixed with the people who were there, all right, and killed them.

If we abolished our borders, and allowed people in freely, then there would be conflict and eventually, war.



Jesthar said:


> Worst form of government, apparently (except for all the others).


For the sake of the future, we will need an upgraded constitution backed up by democracy. In practice, this will give us something like the US system, which is semi-dictatorial.



Jesthar said:


> OK, start there.


Well it's a moot point, isn't it. We're going to be at war in a couple of decades. Oooops.
If we could invent a time machine and go back to various points here and there, kill Marx (that takes care of communism and Nazism), etc, then we could reset things 

Society can only be run along the lines of what is compatible with human nature. We have deviated from this, and the rot has set in and won't be gotten rid of until after the war. Around 2050/ 2060, we'll be back on the right track, but by then we'll have man-machine interfaces so government will be different.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> But that's not true as we all (should) know. The victors of war will often punish the loser(s) by taking away part of their country and thus altering the borders and demography of that country.


Precisely.

Borders have more often been progenitors of conflict than guarantors of peace.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Precisely.
> 
> Borders have more often been progenitors of conflict than guarantors of peace.


You've only got to look at the Austro-Hungarian Empire as a prime example!

http://www.iwm.at/publications/5-junior-visiting-fellows-conferences/vol-xxi/adam-kozuchowski/

*Why and How Do States Collapse? The Case of Austria-Hungary in the Inter-war Historical Discourse*


----------



## ukcatdaddy

mewtoo said:


> I'm a Brexiteer as well.
> I was joking about how Brexiteers have been labelled as all of those hurty names, and apparently we voted to leave the EU because of a suggestion on a bus and some Russians on Twitter :Hilarious


Sorry I must live in my own little bubble. Why are people finding this silly name calling hurtful? Shrug it off and ignore it, if people want to be childish by name calling they are only showing themselves up.

I don't use social media at all. I don't watch or listen to the news either.


----------



## mewtoo

Arnie83 said:


> Precisely.
> 
> Borders have more often been progenitors of conflict than guarantors of peace.


It's borders which help keep us safe.

Before borders existed, people were killing each other left, right and centre.

There was a good find in Africa a few years ago. Hundreds of men, killed by rocks and spears, in a battle before recorded history and before borders.
When one tribe went into the territory of another tribe, they fought.

Chimpanzees do the same thing. If only one group of chimps could build a barrier to keep out the other group of chimps.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You've only got to look at the Austro-Hungarian Empire as a prime example!
> 
> http://www.iwm.at/publications/5-junior-visiting-fellows-conferences/vol-xxi/adam-kozuchowski/
> 
> *Why and How Do States Collapse? The Case of Austria-Hungary in the Inter-war Historical Discourse*


Blimey; that might take me a few minutes to read!!


----------



## mewtoo

ukcatdaddy said:


> Sorry I must live in my own little bubble. Why are people finding this silly name calling hurtful? Shrug it off and ignore it, if people want to be childish by name calling they are only showing themselves up.
> 
> I don't use social media at all. I don't watch or listen to the news either.


This modern form of name calling, with all the isms invented specifically for this purpose, is intended to shut down dissenters.
A person does not like to be called racist, sexist, xenophobic, bigoted, and so on, so he self-censors.
It's a commie invention and came from the East.
The Soviets pushed it hard on the West starting in the 60s, and it has been with us ever since.
It was intended to subvert and destroy a society from within and it has worked spectacularly well.
Globalism is similar to communism, so the globalists use this tactic as well.

Don't want to be ruled by a foreign government? RACIST!
Don't want to abolish your borders? XENOPHOBE!
Object to mass immigration? BIGOT!

It's worked really well, but enough people are immune to it now, that it has sort of lost the bulk of its power.


----------



## Arnie83

mewtoo said:


> It's borders which help keep us safe.
> 
> Before borders existed, people were killing each other left, right and centre.
> 
> There was a good find in Africa a few years ago. Hundreds of men, killed by rocks and spears, in a battle before recorded history and before borders.
> When one tribe went into the territory of another tribe, they fought.
> 
> Chimpanzees do the same thing. If only one group of chimps could build a barrier to keep out the other group of chimps.


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Blimey; that might take me a few minutes to read!!


It'l keep you out of mischief!


----------



## Jesthar

mewtoo said:


> No. it means this.
> Some people here do not like borders, because they think that everyone will be able to mix and live in peace.
> 
> In practice, this does not work.
> 
> Countries, with borders, exist so that a distinct people, with a distinct culture, can exist within that land.


So a country (UK, USA, China etc.) is defined as an area with a homogenous culture, then?



mewtoo said:


> In North America and Australia there were no countries with borders to defend the land for the people who lived upon it, so that when the settlers arrived, they found merely land to be settled.
> They mixed with the people who were there, all right, and killed them.
> 
> If we abolished our borders, and allowed people in freely, then there would be conflict and eventually, war.


So, North America, Australia and Africa (included due to the example in your other post) failed to defend themselves from overseas settlers primarily because they didn't have proper countries with borders?



mewtoo said:


> For the sake of the future, we will need an upgraded constitution backed up by democracy. *In practice, this will give us something like the US system, which is semi-dictatorial*.


And you would be happy with such an outcome?



mewtoo said:


> Well it's a moot point, isn't it


Pretend it isn't, and indulge me


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> So a country (UK, USA, China etc.) is defined as an area with a homogenous culture, then?
> 
> So, North America, Australia and Africa (included due to the example in your other post) failed to defend themselves from overseas settlers primarily because they didn't have proper countries with borders?
> 
> And you would be happy with such an outcome?
> 
> Pretend it isn't, and indulge me


So presumably, to use the OP's example of Africa, the Zulus should never have been able to beat the s*** out of the British army because they didn't have a proper country with borders.

https://afrolegends.com/2014/01/29/...he-day-the-british-lost-the-war-to-the-zulus/

*The Battle of Isandlwana: the Day the British Lost the War to the Zulus*


----------



## emmaviolet

*There was no media influence, no TV influence, no influence from campainers, no influence from the junk sent through my letter box and absolutely no one controlled my mind to make me vote leave, it was purely my own decision. *

No matter what you say, there is not one person who can make any decision without any influence. Every single person is influenced hundreds of times a day through osmosis. Nothing in this world is ever 'purely your own decision' whichever side you voted for.


----------



## emmaviolet

I have a lovely anecdote on Brexit Britain today.

So, I live in a town that voted leave, but officially the constituent voted remain (to many peoples chagrin).

I had to go to the doctors this morning due to an ongoing condition, I booked on the morning, got an appointment, as did my grandmother who uses the same GP. We always phone on the morning and have never not been able to get an appointment.

So, in the waiting room. A man is behind us, in front is a Turkish family. Suddenly he shouts 'them, there, they're the problem, they're the reason you can't get an appointment here anymore'. To which his delightful partner replied 'yeah, but just wait, by Brexit day, by March 29th they've got six months and then they're outta here.'
There was further rudeness towards the family.

I edited what they said to remove the foul language that they peppered in there.

But yes, welcome to the land of the racist and ignorant. They have the biggest voice in this country at the minute.


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> Ford now preparing to move production out of Britain.
> 
> It's all going so well, it's like a dream come true for the UK!


I was speaking to a Brexit supporter recently with all this news on job losses.

He didn't attempt the 'Scaremongering' denial but said it didn't bother him as he was retired.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

How many people were in the waiting room?

Oh, and if I was in that waiting room, they wouldn’t have the biggest voice and with zero tolerance in my area, the racists would be arrested.

Also 6 weeks is the minimum waiting time for appointments at my GP. They no longer do urgent appointments, so for acute illness or injury, or something needing urgent attention, we are expected to go to a&e or the walk in centre. There’s a scrolling billboard that says so.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> I have a lovely anecdote on Brexit Britain today.
> 
> So, I live in a town that voted leave, but officially the constituent voted remain (to many peoples chagrin).
> 
> I had to go to the doctors this morning due to an ongoing condition, I booked on the morning, got an appointment, as did my grandmother who uses the same GP. We always phone on the morning and have never not been able to get an appointment.
> 
> So, in the waiting room. A man is behind us, in front is a Turkish family. Suddenly he shouts 'them, there, they're the problem, they're the reason you can't get an appointment here anymore'. To which his delightful partner replied 'yeah, but just wait, by Brexit day, by March 29th they've got six months and then they're outta here.'
> There was further rudeness towards the family.
> 
> I edited what they said to remove the foul language that they peppered in there.
> 
> But yes, welcome to the land of the racist and ignorant. They have the biggest voice in this country at the minute.





Elles said:


> How many people were in the waiting room?
> 
> Oh, and if I was in that waiting room, they wouldn't have the biggest voice and with zero tolerance in my area, the racists would be arrested.
> 
> Also 6 weeks is the minimum waiting time for appointments at my GP. They no longer do urgent appointments, so for acute illness or injury, or something needing urgent attention, we are expected to go to a&e or the walk in centre. There's a scrolling billboard that says so.


Where do you people live, I've never heard anything like that and wouldn't expect to around here, and even the worst GP surgery will normally see you within a week.

I'd rather not move to anywhere near you two


----------



## AlexPed2393

rona said:


> Where do you people live, I've never heard anything like that and wouldn't expect to around here, and even the worst GP surgery will normally see you within a week.
> 
> I'd rather not move to anywhere near you two


Just as bad here in Darlington, I can't even get a Dentist without travelling 15 miles


----------



## rona

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just as bad here in Darlington, I can't even get a Dentist without travelling 15 miles


I think the dentist thing is countrywide. They all went private didn't they? Trained with the NHS then screwed them


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 393175


It's spot on for Trump, that's for sure!


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> I hope no-one gets the impression that I think I am superior in any way.


I doubt that they do as you are invariably polite and reasonable; I am sure @Magyarmum was not referring to you.


----------



## Magyarmum

In Hungary it's not necessary to make an appointment to see the doctor. It's first come, first serve but having said that I've never had to wait for more than 20 minutes before being seen.


----------



## Arnie83

Surely there are too many of these warnings re a No Deal Brexit for anyone still to think they are scaremongering.

Today from Ford Motors:

"Such a situation [No Deal Brexit] would be catastrophic for the UK auto industry and Ford's manufacturing operations in the country," the company said in a statement. "We will take whatever action is necessary to preserve the competitiveness of our European business."​
Reports (The Times et al) suggest Ford are preparing to move production from the UK should No Deal be the chosen option.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I doubt that they do as you are invariably polite and reasonable; I am sure @Magyarmum was not referring to you.


OMG now what am I supposed to have done?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

emmaviolet said:


> *There was no media influence, no TV influence, no influence from campainers, no influence from the junk sent through my letter box and absolutely no one controlled my mind to make me vote leave, it was purely my own decision. *
> 
> No matter what you say, there is not one person who can make any decision without any influence. Every single person is influenced hundreds of times a day through osmosis. Nothing in this world is ever 'purely your own decision' whichever side you voted for.


You make it sound as if you cannot make decisions for yourself and have to have all your decisions made via influence from others. I make independent decisions everyday and don't need anyone to influence any decision I make. I am very independent person who thinks for myself and is capable of making a decision with no outside influence. You are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to nit pick. You may need people to influence your decisions but I do not.


----------



## AlexPed2393

rona said:


> I think the dentist thing is countrywide. They all went private didn't they? Trained with the NHS then screwed them


Correctamundo. Also unless it is an emergency appointment or you don't mind seeing a nurse instead of a doctor, you have no hope of getting an appointment within 2 weeks


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It's spot on for Trump, that's for sure!


They're certainly peas from the same pod, but I sometimes wonder if May is actually worse if that's possible.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> You make it sound as if you cannot make decisions for yourself and have to have all your decisions made via influence from others. I make independent decisions everyday and don't need anyone to influence any decision I make. I am very independent person who thinks for myself and is capable of making a decision with no outside influence. You are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to nit pick. You may need people to influence your decisions but I do not.


I don't want to speak for @emmaviolet but I think the point is that we all get our information on all subjects from very many sources, often over years, and are influenced by those sources. Reading a book on a subject, or watching TV, or chatting to friends at the pub; everything we learn on a subject, unless it is first hand experience must be classed as an influencer, because it is through that information that we form our judgements.

The impression might be that Guardian headlines or Farage talking out of an orifice not normally associated with verbal communication are the influencers being discussed, but it's a lot wider than that.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> They're certainly peas from the same pod, but I sometimes wonder if May is actually worse if that's possible.


Rest assured, you are surprising no-one with that admission!


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I have a lovely anecdote on Brexit Britain today.
> 
> So, I live in a town that voted leave, but officially the constituent voted remain (to many peoples chagrin).
> 
> I had to go to the doctors this morning due to an ongoing condition, I booked on the morning, got an appointment, as did my grandmother who uses the same GP. We always phone on the morning and have never not been able to get an appointment.
> 
> So, in the waiting room. A man is behind us, in front is a Turkish family. Suddenly he shouts 'them, there, they're the problem, they're the reason you can't get an appointment here anymore'. To which his delightful partner replied 'yeah, but just wait, by Brexit day, by March 29th they've got six months and then they're outta here.'
> There was further rudeness towards the family.
> 
> I edited what they said to remove the foul language that they peppered in there.
> 
> But yes, welcome to the land of the racist and ignorant. They have the biggest voice in this country at the minute.


So what race were these nasty people ? You've not said?

Ive quoted you from an earlier thread . #1402 emmaviolet, Jun 24, 2016 
*EU Referendum - Are You In or Out?*



> Yes, I have spent a lot of time in certain places in Essex that are considered very racist and spent very many hours in the company of racists, all white, I may add.
> 
> Of course there is racism between all different races.


You might like to remember that white , Asian and black people voted Leave.
Of course no Remainers are racist! Well yes they are.
I'm glad you agree that racism exists between races .

I can give examples of other racism
if you like.
Shamefully , there are many nasty people out there of all races.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Where do you people live, I've never heard anything like that and wouldn't expect to around here, and even the worst GP surgery will normally see you within a week.
> 
> I'd rather not move to anywhere near you two


We can get emergency appointments the same day though that depends on what the Surgery considers an emergency . If I wanted to see a particular GP , I could have to wait more than two weeks . A week or more perhaps to get an ordinary appointment. It varies .


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Surely there are too many of these warnings re a No Deal Brexit for anyone still to think they are scaremongering.
> 
> Today from Ford Motors:
> 
> "Such a situation [No Deal Brexit] would be catastrophic for the UK auto industry and Ford's manufacturing operations in the country," the company said in a statement. "We will take whatever action is necessary to preserve the competitiveness of our European business."​
> Reports (The Times et al) suggest Ford are preparing to move production from the UK should No Deal be the chosen option.


They're all motor companies who were already struggling, have the diesel issue and were already moving out. Not just out of the U.K. either, out of Europe too, unless European motor companies buy them out.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Where do you people live, I've never heard anything like that and wouldn't expect to around here, and even the worst GP surgery will normally see you within a week.
> 
> I'd rather not move to anywhere near you two


I live in Devon, which of course has a high percentage of retired and elderly folk, who get the blame. My own gp is morbidly obese, works part time and is often absent with health issues. This puts pressure on the rest of the practice of course, but that can't be the only reason. There was research done recently, where many areas are bad for gps, ours is one of them.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> They're all motor companies who were already struggling, have the diesel issue and were already moving out. Not just out of the U.K. either, out of Europe too, unless European motor companies buy them out.


And in the US the auto industry is having problems.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/17/economy/us-auto-plant-glut/index.html

*The real problem with the American auto industry*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-risks-100000-german-jobs-report/a-47447207

*Hard Brexit risks 100,000 German jobs: report*


----------



## KittenKong

"Yeah, I just scrape the mould off, Lovely!", said Albert Steptoe.

" You dirty old man", cried his son Harold...


----------



## grumpy goby

Magyarmum said:


> And in the US the auto industry is having problems.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/17/economy/us-auto-plant-glut/index.html
> 
> *The real problem with the American auto industry*


I think this is specifically regarding American Cars (Ford, Chrysler and General Motors) which are losing popularity to Japanese Models, and China when it comes to Electric Cars (Rather than the automotive as a whole industry in the US). Also, I think Trump has not helped with the finances with his Tarrifs of Steel and Aluminium (at least I know it was causing issues before Christmas, not sure of the current situation - I think it had cost GM around $700M which obviously compounds the issues caused by the decrease in demand when competing with Japan)


----------



## KittenKong

Well, I'm sure some will argue Jim down the road is handy with a pair of pliars.

They don't need experts you see...

https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2019.102


----------



## KittenKong

Well well well.


----------



## Arnie83

Again, it's nothing hugely dramatic in the big scheme of things, but there are a lot of similar stories concerning funds, production capability, administration and therefore jobs which all add up. There are few, if any, reports of companies moving stuff _into_ the UK because of Brexit uncertainty. And we have to wonder whether it will move back once it's gone. This, I think, is the real (deal) Brexit; the slow drift away from the UK. A No Deal Brexit would speed it all up and exacerbate it.

*Brexit Uncertainty Pushes Aviva to Move $10 Billion Out of U.K.*

Aviva asked Judge Richard Snowden for permission to move the life-insurance policies held by non-U.K. policyholders to its Irish subsidiary. The insurer wants to make the move to prevent the risk that payments may be held up if the U.K. goes through a hard Brexit.

"The reason for proposing it, your lordship will not be surprised to know, is Brexit," said Martin Moore, a lawyer for Aviva, who has also advised UBS Group AG on its recent transfer of assets. "The current and intensifying uncertainty render the need for certainty all the more pressing."​


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 393244
> Well, I'm some some will argue Jim down the road is handy with a pair of pliars.
> 
> They don't need experts you see...
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/sj.bdj.2019.102


Oh good!

Now maybe there won't be an acute shortage of Hungarian dentists in this country, and we won't have to recruit from other EU countries - and even farther afield.

Has it never occurred to you KK how selfish you sound?

It's fine for you that countries like Hungary, Romania or Slovakia pay to train medical professionals to work for the British NHS whilst their own nationals lives are put at risk by the shortage of staff, just so poor little you doesn't have to suffer!


----------



## noushka05

ukcatdaddy said:


> Well I have said what I want to say and just want to follow this thread if that is ok as I find it interesting reading different points of view on Brexit?


Hello & welcome to the forum 

I suspect you must have seen newcomers who join this thread interrogated by a certain member for you to ask this? Well to put your mind at rest @stockwellcat only accuses new faces who join this thread of having second accounts etc if they are remain supporters & as you & he share _exactly _the same opinions (almost word for word), you should be absolutely fine.

I've been wondering where SWC has disappeared to - you two are going to get along great


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Oh good!
> 
> Now maybe there won't be an acute shortage of Hungarian dentists in this country, and we won't have to recruit from other EU countries - and even farther afield.
> 
> Has it never occurred to you KK how selfish you sound?
> 
> It's fine for you that countries like Hungary, Romania or Slovakia pay to train medical professionals to work for the British NHS whilst their own nationals lives are put at risk by the shortage of staff, just so poor little you doesn't have to suffer!


What will stop the dentists working elsewhere in the EU? Should Hungary or Slovakia build a wall to keep them in? Shouldn't people be able to choose to live & work in other countries?


----------



## noushka05

I voted for brexit because I didn't think it would affect me

Bang on!
*Will Black*‏: B_rits in Spain who were on the side of Brexit are perfect illustrations of lingering colonialist entitlement.

The assumption that Brexit would affect migrants in the UK but not you as you are 'ex pats' is cringeworthy
_

*Brexit healthcare worries for Brits in Spain*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47214093


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-risks-100000-german-jobs-report/a-47447207
> 
> *Hard Brexit risks 100,000 German jobs: report*


The brextremists dont care about job losses here so they'll probably be cheering at this news. So selfish are they


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Hello & welcome to the forum
> 
> I suspect you must have seen newcomers who join this thread interrogated by a certain member for you to ask this? Well to put your mind at rest @stockwellcat only accuses new faces who join this thread of having second accounts etc if they are remain supporters & as you & he share _exactly _the same opinions (almost word for word), you should be absolutely fine.
> 
> I've been wondering where SWC has disappeared to - you two are going to get along great


You really should be more careful who you're accusing.

If you'd read the thread properly you'd know it wasn't @stockwellcat. who made the comment, but other newer members,

The comments in the above thread was totally uncalled for and I suspect made only to cause trouble.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> You really should be more careful who you're accusing.
> 
> If you'd read the thread properly you'd know it wasn't @stockwellcat who made the comment, but other newer members,
> 
> The comments in the above thread was totally uncalled for and I suspect made only to cause trouble.


I didn't say it was SWC  I hope SWC will be along shortly & @ukcatdaddy sticks around as they both have so much in common.

I've just reread your post & seem to have misconstrued what you said. What comment wasn't SWC

Or have I misunderstood what you mean? I'm not entirely sure what comments you're talking about.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Native Indians were destroyed because of racism that justified their extermination,


Racism? I thought they died mainly from diseases introduced by settlers; diseases which they had never before encountered and against which they therefore had no immunity.

''And from 1770 to 1850, smallpox, measles and influenza killed at least two thirds of the original population of Western Washington. All in all, from 1500 to 1900, introduced diseases like smallpox, measles and typhoid killed around 1,500,000 Native Americans.''


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> @stockwellcat


 If you want to tag him, you need a full stop after his name (_stockwellcat_.)!! But I think he's taking a break right now so maybe won't get a notification.


----------



## Calvine

mewtoo said:


> Oh and also, because we are racists, xenophobes, bigots, Little Englanders, and some other stuff too.


I think ''poorly educated'' was another group who voted out; or ''uneducated'' even!


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I thought they died mainly from diseases introduced by settlers; diseases which they had never before encountered and against which they therefore had no immunity.


Over 100 million Native Americans were massacred, by colonialist countries like ours, Thats how we got rich plundering other countries of their resources.

http://community.dewereldmorgen.be/...s-longest-holocaust-in-the-history-of-mankind


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> If you want to tag him, you need a full stop after his name (_stockwellcat_.)!! But I think he's taking a break right now so maybe won't get a notification.


He PM ed me to say he was taking a break . Ive not from him since. I dont have a current email address for him .  I hope he's ok . He was pretty upset after the nasty accusations against.

oh , talking of accusations, @KittenKong . Im racist against cats according to you .
We have Alabhama foot root near us at Watford. Its fatal and dogs die a horrid death. More stricter rules would have stopped this, but of , course it doesn't affect cats so why would you care ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Over 100 million Native Americans were massacred, by colonialist countries like ours, Thats how we got rich plundering other countries of their resources.


Yes us Europeans killed millions of native people where ever we went in the New World


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Yes us Europeans killed millions of native people where ever we went in the New World


To our shame. Slaughtered indigenous peoples & the creatures they lived in harmony with too, stole their land & resources. Yet _they_ were labelled the savages.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

I want to make it clear I do not know who stockwellcat. is. I have noticed that stockwellcat. is a regular poster on this thread though. 

I think I will give this thread a miss as some posters seem very hot headed and confrontational.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Racism? I thought they died mainly from diseases introduced by settlers; diseases which they had never before encountered and against which they therefore had no immunity.


You sure you're not thinking of those tripod things from Mars ...


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> You sure you're not thinking of those tripod things from Mars ...


Yep, germs deffo did for them. Good to know if it ever becomes reality, we just need to sneeze on the buggers


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Yep, germs deffo did for them. Good to know if it ever becomes reality, we just need to sneeze on the buggers


Calling all accurate, long-distance sneezers: your planet needs you!


----------



## noushka05

ukcatdaddy said:


> I want to make it clear I do not know who stockwellcat. is. I have noticed that stockwellcat. is a regular poster on this thread though.
> 
> I think I will give this thread a miss as some posters seem very hot headed and confrontational.


Hope you wont leave on my account?. Everyone is entitled to post on this thread. As I said, when SWC returns you two will get along great as you are both reading from the same page.


----------



## Calvine

ukcatdaddy said:


> I want to make it clear I do not know who stockwellcat. is. I have noticed that stockwellcat. is a regular poster on this thread though.
> 
> I think I will give this thread a miss as some posters seem very hot headed and confrontational.


If there is someone in particular who is really irritating you, use the ''ignore'' function. It means you have to guess what the ignored person has said, which of course keeps you on your toes, but it beats reading page after page of schyte. The only people I have on ''ignore'' are from this thread so I can see your point.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> "Yeah, I just scrape the mould off, Lovely!", said Albert Steptoe.
> 
> " You dirty old man", cried his son Harold...
> 
> View attachment 393216


What does this really have to do with Brexit?


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> You sure you're not thinking of those tripod things from Mars ...


I might be . . .


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> What does this really have to do with Brexit?


Naff all, I should say; and if she is diabetic, which I believe she is, why is she eating jam? True, I believe you can buy ''diabetic'' versions, but bet your life they taste crap . . . and there's sugar in the fruit anyway.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> Naff all, I should say; and if she is diabetic, which I believe she is, why is she eating jam? True, I believe you can buy ''diabetic'' versions, but bet your life they taste crap . . . and there's sugar in the fruit anyway.


Diabetics can still have jam and stuff, just need to balance it out. Either way what's the point in wanting Theresa May to fail, because if she fails at her job, we all take a hit for it


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> How many people were in the waiting room?
> 
> Oh, and if I was in that waiting room, they wouldn't have the biggest voice and with zero tolerance in my area, the racists would be arrested.
> 
> Also 6 weeks is the minimum waiting time for appointments at my GP. They no longer do urgent appointments, so for acute illness or injury, or something needing urgent attention, we are expected to go to a&e or the walk in centre. There's a scrolling billboard that says so.


There was the family in front who he was complaining about (unless, and it's possible he also meant me and my mother as we also look Turkish) the man and his wife and me and my mother.

Ordinarily, I would have said something directly to him, however he was a very, very large man and I am not. I also had had a ruptured cyst so I was in a lot of pain and in no condition for him to take his racist aggression out on me.

I reported him to the receptionist afterwards.

Here it's simple to get an appointment. I've had to see the GP a lot, as has my grandmother and if you call at 8.am you get an appointment that same day.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> So what race were these nasty people ? You've not said?
> 
> Ive quoted you from an earlier thread . #1402 emmaviolet, Jun 24, 2016
> *EU Referendum - Are You In or Out?*
> 
> You might like to remember that white , Asian and black people voted Leave.
> Of course no Remainers are racist! Well yes they are.
> I'm glad you agree that racism exists between races .
> 
> I can give examples of other racism
> if you like.
> Shamefully , there are many nasty people out there of all races.


I'm sorry, I don't really understand the relevance of my quote in this?

Yesterday, they were white. The man and his partner were white.

I agree, remainers can be racist and so can people of other races and people of all races voted leave. Again, I don't really see your point here. The people actually referenced brexit.

With Brexit, I've often referred it to the fingers and thumb quote.
All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs. Not all brexit voters are racist, but all racists voted for brexit. Something along those lines.....


----------



## emmaviolet

ukcatdaddy said:


> You make it sound as if you cannot make decisions for yourself and have to have all your decisions made via influence from others. I make independent decisions everyday and don't need anyone to influence any decision I make. I am very independent person who thinks for myself and is capable of making a decision with no outside influence. You are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to nit pick. You may need people to influence your decisions but I do not.


That's not actually my point at all.

I don't 'need' people to influence me, but everything does through osmosis, and you are not immune to it.

Do you walk down the street? You see billboards, they will influence you one way or another. You see a bus, there's adverts on that. Go to a supermarket, there's headlines on the front page of the paper. Watch tv, there's adverts.
Everything you see around you is influencing your decisions. There is no such thing as a completely independent decision.

I'm not barking up any tree, I'm just telling you the facts about the world around you. No decision you make is entirely based on your own mind, you are being fed things one way or another.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> I don't want to speak for @emmaviolet but I think the point is that we all get our information on all subjects from very many sources, often over years, and are influenced by those sources. Reading a book on a subject, or watching TV, or chatting to friends at the pub; everything we learn on a subject, unless it is first hand experience must be classed as an influencer, because it is through that information that we form our judgements.
> 
> The impression might be that Guardian headlines or Farage talking out of an orifice not normally associated with verbal communication are the influencers being discussed, but it's a lot wider than that.


This is exactly what I meant Arnie, thank you.


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> There was the family in front who he was complaining about (unless, and it's possible he also meant me and my mother as we also look Turkish) the man and his wife and me and my mother.
> 
> Ordinarily, I would have said something directly to him, however he was a very, very large man and I am not. I also had had a ruptured cyst so I was in a lot of pain and in no condition for him to take his racist aggression out on me.
> 
> I reported him to the receptionist afterwards.
> 
> Here it's simple to get an appointment. I've had to see the GP a lot, as has my grandmother and if you call at 8.am you get an appointment that same day.


I sort of expect this sort of thing nowadays sadly with what much of the UK has become. A nasty intolerant place.

But what also makes this absolutely appalling is the receptionist didn't do anything about it.

There's notices everywhere saying the abuse of staff from patients would not be tolerated with patients removed from the practice, IE: no longer treated by the practice.

Yet this doesn't appear to apply to abuse from one patient to another.

You did nothing wrong Emma. It wasn't your job to get involved and to put yourself at risk.

It was the receptionist who should've intervened by saying security and/or the police would be called.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Round and round we go, with no real progress on the topic again and again and again.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> You make it sound as if you cannot make decisions for yourself and have to have all your decisions made via influence from others. I make independent decisions everyday and don't need anyone to influence any decision I make. I am very independent person who thinks for myself and is capable of making a decision with no outside influence. You are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to nit pick. You may need people to influence your decisions but I do not.


Now come on. You can't tell me you voted leave just because you felt like it?

While I accept you made your decision independently they must have been something that made you put a cross in the leave box.

In the same sense, being a strong supporter of the EU for well over ten years I have my reasons they have my support and wish to remain part of it.

If I was influenced by anyone I would've voted to leave! Everyone and everywhere it seemed were selling leave to me but I would not buy.

Some still try to this day despite Brexit representing everything I detest with venom.

I'm sure you'll become best friends with SWC...






Love this band and their records.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Now come on. You can't tell me you voted leave just because you felt like it?
> 
> While I accept you made your decision independently they must have been something that made you put a cross in the leave box.
> 
> In the same sense, being a strong supporter of the EU for well over ten years I have my reasons they have my support and wish to remain part of it.
> 
> If I was influenced by anyone I would've voted to leave! Everyone and everywhere it seemed were selling leave to me but I would not buy.
> 
> Some still try to this day despite Brexit representing everything I detest with venom.
> 
> I'm sure you'll become best friends with SWC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love this band and their records.


So remainers voted to remain of their own accord with no influence, but leavers were influenced?

Bit patronising that.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Now come on. You can't tell me you voted leave just because you felt like it?
> 
> While I accept you made your decision independently they must have been something that made you put a cross in the leave box.
> 
> In the same sense, being a strong supporter of the EU for well over ten years I have my reasons they have my support and wish to remain part of it.
> 
> If I was influenced by anyone I would've voted to leave! Everyone and everywhere it seemed were selling leave to me but I would not buy.
> 
> Some still try to this day despite Brexit representing everything I detest with venom.
> 
> I'm sure you'll become best friends with SWC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love this band and their records.


I wasn't influenced by the bus or any of the things that people regularly mentioned. I left because I didn't like the idea of the EU being a 'club' of sorts that bullied and bribed its way into having more political power than it deserved.
I did understand that the EU has invested a fair amount of money into the North East of England but they have taken a large swathe of cash for bailing out Greece, Italy are ow in huge debts as are other smaller EU countries.

I think the EU will crumble in the next 10-15 years. I don't want it to but I think it will


----------



## AlexPed2393

The prime minister has also said she will lift the requirement for a 21-day period before any vote to approve an international treaty, which means she could delay the final Brexit vote until days before the UK is due to leave the EU.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47231597

Taken from this


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> I wasn't influenced by the bus or any of the things that people regularly mentioned


 I honestly don't know of anyone who even saw the bus . . . and I imagine it was fairly big, hence difficult to miss.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> There's notices everywhere saying the abuse of staff from patients would not be tolerated


 Yes, one of those has appeared in my GP's waiting room (not sure when as I go there so seldom). I actually saw a drunk head-butting a bus windscreen the other day - it seems he had no credit on his Oyster card so the driver asked him to go and get it topped up and he went crazy and started head-butting the windscreen as he couldn't get to the driver.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I wasn't influenced by the bus or any of the things that people regularly mentioned. I left because I didn't like the idea of the EU being a 'club' of sorts that bullied and bribed its way into having more political power than it deserved.
> I did understand that the EU has invested a fair amount of money into the North East of England but they have taken a large swathe of cash for bailing out Greece, Italy are ow in huge debts as are other smaller EU countries.
> 
> I think the EU will crumble in the next 10-15 years. I don't want it to but I think it will


I thought you said you left because you didn't like EU laws Alex? Also I provided proof that the UK is exempt from bailouts https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

EU legislation protects the food we eat, the water we drink, our environment, workers rights - I can't understand why you would want to see deregulation of our standards & environmental protections. Do you believe we are at the tipping point of catastrophic runaway climate change? Do you care that we have little more than a decade to save our living planet from catastrophe?

.


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> I sort of expect this sort of thing nowadays sadly with what much of the UK has become. A nasty intolerant place.
> 
> But what also makes this absolutely appalling is the receptionist didn't do anything about it.
> 
> There's notices everywhere saying the abuse of staff from patients would not be tolerated with patients removed from the practice, IE: no longer treated by the practice.
> 
> Yet this doesn't appear to apply to abuse from one patient to another.
> 
> You did nothing wrong Emma. It wasn't your job to get involved and to put yourself at risk.
> 
> It was the receptionist who should've intervened by saying security and/or the police would be called.


TBH I think I did do wrong in not saying anything, and had he been smaller and less aggressive, I would have.

My GP office has all of those signs up, but it is run by tiny women, and this man was quite large and seemed to be after a fight. I think he then gave some racist abuse about his doctor, as he stormed out complaining that he wasn't the dr he asked for and he wasn't white either!
He was just pond life and his wife too.

Sadly it's been happening more and more since Brexit, and that's something that cannot be denied, it has bought the racists out of the woodwork and given them a huge voice. As I've said before I have been asked if I'll have to go back, as has my mother. We were born here, we're just dark haired and eyed and tan really dark!


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> I left because I didn't like the idea of the EU being a 'club' of sorts that* bullied and bribed its way into having more political power than it deserved*.


Interesting: Do you have any specific examples of this and why you think the EU has more power than it 'deserves'? Is not the power bestowed by the European Council?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I thought you said you left because you didn't like EU laws Alex? Also I provided proof that the UK is exempt from bailouts https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277
> 
> EU legislation protects the food we eat, the water we drink, our environment, workers rights - I can't understand why you would want to see deregulation of our standards & environmental protections. Do you believe we are at the tipping point of catastrophic runaway climate change? Do you care that we have little more than a decade to save our living planet from catastrophe?
> 
> .


What I said can be encompassed into what I said earlier. Stop trying to pick apart every single post someone makes to try and make them look foolish, rather than the actual context of what they are saying.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So remainers voted to remain of their own accord with no influence, but leavers were influenced?
> 
> Bit patronising that.


I didn't actually say that. I said something must have influenced the OP with the decision to vote leave, yet recognising he made his independent decision to do so.

I was influenced in my support for the EU by seeing for myself with my own eyes the good they have done over the many years.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting: Do you have any specific examples of this and why you think the EU has more power than it 'deserves'? Is not the power bestowed by the European Council?


I'll try, can't guarantee I can get it all right though 

Jean Monnet said this
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation"

Juncker said this
"There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties"

So the EU is anti-democratic

EU law has a purposive nature so this allows the European Court of Justice to interpret and reinterpret the wording of EU laws in line with the European Commission's (often changing) intentions. So the goal posts are always moving. Unlike in UK common law where everything is permitted unless forbidden.

Not going to get into the Euro as I don't know enough about it.

This was taken from the Telegraph:

"_The EU's accounts have not been approved for the last 20 years by the EU's chief auditor in respect of around €100bn of expenditures. Governed as it is from a centre run by unelected bureaucrats and judges rather than politicians, it is readily apparent that the EU is incapable of reforming itself.

As an institution driven by process rather than outcomes, it is drowning in its own rules and this is stifling innovation. It should be clear from the above that remaining in the EU is the high-risk strategy - not leaving it."
_
That's basically my argument for wanting to leave, sorry if I haven't answered your question


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> What I said can be encompassed into what I said earlier. Stop trying to pick apart every single post someone makes to try and make them look foolish, rather than the actual context of what they are saying.


I'm not trying to make you look foolish, Im trying to understand why you would want deregulation especially when we are facing the greatest crisis we have ever faced. Rees Mogg & co want brexit so they tear up EU legislation which protects us & our environment. We will soon feel the full force of disaster capitalism. Taking our country back?? I dont think so. Brexit is a right wing power grab. Its bye bye NHS too. Can you name a single tangible benefit to leaving the EU?


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> TBH I think I did do wrong in not saying anything, and had he been smaller and less aggressive, I would have.
> 
> My GP office has all of those signs up, but it is run by tiny women, and this man was quite large and seemed to be after a fight. I think he then gave some racist abuse about his doctor, as he stormed out complaining that he wasn't the dr he asked for and he wasn't white either!
> He was just pond life and his wife too.
> 
> Sadly it's been happening more and more since Brexit, and that's something that cannot be denied, it has bought the racists out of the woodwork and given them a huge voice. As I've said before I have been asked if I'll have to go back, as has my mother. We were born here, we're just dark haired and eyed and tan really dark!


It was bad enough when I was nearly pounced on for being "Irish" by a bunch of idiots as all Irish were IRA in much the same sense some believe people with a different Religious belief are terrorists today.

I stand by what I said earlier, it was the responsibility of the practice to have dealt with this.

Some say no Brexit or a second referendum would risk upsetting vermin like this.

I mean, really?

_Disclaimer- While these idiots voted leave I'm not targeting all Brexit supporters with the same brush. Just that element of them. You know, the "Tommeh"'s._


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I'm not trying to make you look foolish, Im trying to understand why you would want deregulation especially when we are facing the greatest crisis we have ever faced. Rees Mogg & co want brexit so they tear up EU legislation which protects us & our environment. We will soon feel the full force of disaster capitalism. Taking our country back?? I dont think so. Brexit is a right wing power grab. Its bye bye NHS too. Can you name a single tangible benefit to leaving the EU?


Have a quick read of my previous post for some answers


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Have a quick read of my previous post for some answers


It answers non of my questions though. The EU for all its faults is far better than the alternative. If you think we're going to better off out of the EU, you're going to be in for an almighty shock. With progressive governments & progressive politicians we could have reformed the EU from inside. Putting aside the terrible impact its already having on our economy, practically every green NGO, environmentalist , the medical professionals, the scientific community all warned us against leaving the EU.

Plus our security is at risk.

*Brexit Chaos: Why It Is A Major Terrorism And Security Risk*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...mpaign=sprinklrForbesTechTwitter#f53c4782b2ed


----------



## Vanessa131

Calvine said:


> Naff all, I should say; and if she is diabetic, which I believe she is, why is she eating jam? True, I believe you can buy ''diabetic'' versions, but bet your life they taste crap . . . and there's sugar in the fruit anyway.


That was my first thought as well!


----------



## Elles

Not all racists voted leave. Some of them have businesses that rely on the Eu and even on immigration and not all racist are white either.


----------



## Elles

emmaviolet said:


> TBH I think I did do wrong in not saying anything, and had he been smaller and less aggressive, I would have.
> 
> My GP office has all of those signs up, but it is run by tiny women, and this man was quite large and seemed to be after a fight. I think he then gave some racist abuse about his doctor, as he stormed out complaining that he wasn't the dr he asked for and he wasn't white either!
> He was just pond life and his wife too.
> 
> Sadly it's been happening more and more since Brexit, and that's something that cannot be denied, it has bought the racists out of the woodwork and given them a huge voice. As I've said before I have been asked if I'll have to go back, as has my mother. We were born here, we're just dark haired and eyed and tan really dark!


You shouldn't have to say anything, so don't feel bad about it. I would have, but then I do. We are all different, have different experiences and different levels of confidence. I'll deal with the racist bully, you clear the dead mouse out of my hay barn.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Plus our security is at risk.
> 
> *Brexit Chaos: Why It Is A Major Terrorism And Security Risk*
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...mpaign=sprinklrForbesTechTwitter#f53c4782b2ed


Hmm:

"Last month, the UK's most senior counter-terrorism officer warned that law enforcement agencies had failed to keep pace with the evolving terrorist threat. "

And that's whilst we are still in the EU? Doesn't really provide a valid reason for staying in does it?


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> Hmm:
> 
> "Last month, the UK's most senior counter-terrorism officer warned that law enforcement agencies had failed to keep pace with the evolving terrorist threat. "
> 
> And that's whilst we are still in the EU? Doesn't really provide a valid reason for staying in does it?


Also we have gone over national security before on the thread


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm a remainer I have accepted (not that I think it's the right thing to do but time will tell) we are leaving. What worries me is the way May is handling the whole thing, she like a spoilt BRAT having a tantrum if you don't my way or I'm not playing.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Hmm:
> 
> "Last month, the UK's most senior counter-terrorism officer warned that law enforcement agencies had failed to keep pace with the evolving terrorist threat. "
> 
> And that's whilst we are still in the EU? Doesn't really provide a valid reason for staying in does it?


But it doesn't suggest it'll get better on leaving either! On the contrary.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Not all racists voted leave. Some of them have businesses that rely on the Eu and even on immigration and not all racist are white either.


Both the leave campaigns ran a racist campaigns. Many people believe the lies about immigrants. You had people blaming the housing crisis on migrants. Blaming migrants for the crisis in our NHS & public services. When in reality it was ALL governments fault. Every key racist & racist organisation supported brexit. It was obvious a vote to leave was going to fan the flames of racism.

*45 per cent of Vote Leave Facebook ads were on immigratio*

https://www.channel4.com/news/by/ga...f-vote-leave-facebook-ads-were-on-immigration


----------



## Arnie83

We're a long way past trying to persuade people which way to vote, and I'm not going to do so, and nor do I want to appear confrontational, but a bit of research leads me to the following ...



AlexPed2393 said:


> I'll try, can't guarantee I can get it all right though
> 
> Jean Monnet said this
> "Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation"


This is not, it seems, a quote by Monnet, but according to one source "in fact it is a paraphrase of a characterization of Monnet's intentions by British Conservative Adrian Hilton:" (Who sounds to me like a bit of a Eurosceptic!)

And another, The Economist, has a passage ... "Even though Monnet never said this, it must have been clear to every British politician that the EEC was never intended as just a 'common trade area".

That latter is more to the point, I think - the EU and its predecessors were always intended to progress towards closer integration, and that's why the UK opted out of so many things, and have, in law, promised a referendum for any proposed change which involves a (perhaps perceived) transfer of sovereignty.

Also, I think I would question whether an attributed quote by Monnet in 1952 would be applicable to the intentions of today's Council. Just a thought.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Juncker said this
> "There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties"
> 
> So the EU is anti-democratic


Juncker did say this, in reference to the Greek public deciding they didn't like the bailout agreement agreed within the EU so that the ECB could continue lending Greece money. It doesn't seem to me that the Greek population should be able to decide that the other countries of the EU (andthe IMF) should simply let its government off.

It would be like a local council voting for the central government to give them more money, and then claiming the flat refusal that subsequently came their way was undemocratic.

So on that one I would just have to disagree with you.

(So as not to go on too long, I'll maybe respond to the other bit another time, but the answer is the same as I have posted in here a couple of times when the EU is accused of corruption.)

As I say, I'm not trying to change your mind - it's too late - but I often find that there is another side to the story when I do a bit of digging. Thanks for posting though!


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Hmm:
> 
> "Last month, the UK's most senior counter-terrorism officer warned that law enforcement agencies had failed to keep pace with the evolving terrorist threat. "
> 
> And that's whilst we are still in the EU? Doesn't really provide a valid reason for staying in does it?


Don't you think that could be due to the massive cuts to the police by the tories?. Its going to get much worse when we leave. 
*Disorderly Brexit will leave us in a 'very bad place', warns counterterror chief*
_https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1548252289

The Tories plan £32,000,000 more cuts to Counter Terrorism Police_

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5166c336-4a2f-11e7-a7b8-5e01acd01516

Prophetic.

*Manchester cop tells Theresa May police cuts WILL lead to terrorism.*


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Not all racists voted leave. Some of them have businesses that rely on the Eu and even on immigration and not all racist are white either.


Yes , that's the point I was trying to make.
Brexit or no brexit , racism isn't going to go away and we must be vigilant and ready to speak put against it.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Yes , that's the point I was trying to make.
> Brexit or no brexit , racism isn't going to go away and we must be vigilant and ready to speak put against it.


Brexit has emboldened the racists. It was always clear what would happen. Racism wont go away whilst ever politicians engage in dog whistle tactics & the hate mongering gutter press carry on drip feeding their poison.

Anyone who buys the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph is funding hate.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Don't you think that could be due to the massive cuts to the police by the tories?. Its going to get much worse when we leave.
> *Disorderly Brexit will leave us in a 'very bad place', warns counterterror chief*
> _https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1548252289
> 
> The Tories plan £32,000,000 more cuts to Counter Terrorism Police_
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5166c336-4a2f-11e7-a7b8-5e01acd01516
> 
> Prophetic.
> 
> *Manchester cop tells Theresa May police cuts WILL lead to terrorism.*


Remember this? 
Recognise her from anywhere?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Naff all, I should say; and if she is diabetic, which I believe she is, why is she eating jam? True, I believe you can buy ''diabetic'' versions, but bet your life they taste crap . . . and there's sugar in the fruit anyway.


My son has been a type 1 Diabetic since the age of 16.

When he's not home, he always keeps a Mars Bar handy in case his blood sugar level drops suddenly.

Having a sugary snack is the fastest way of bringing the blood sugar level back to normal.

https://consumer.healthday.com/ency...80/foods-to-boost-low-blood-sugar-644114.html


----------



## noushka05

Oops Looks like the tories have blown another trade deal lol Ahh well at least we've got one with the Faroe Islands:Hilarious

*Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified account @tnewtondunn
_China's Deputy PM cancels trade talks with Philip Hammond in protest at Gavin Williamson's pledge to send @HMSQNLZ to the Pacific, reveals @kateferguson4 today
_


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> You shouldn't have to say anything, so don't feel bad about it. I would have, but then I do. We are all different, have different experiences and different levels of confidence. I'll deal with the racist bully, you clear the dead mouse out of my hay barn.


I ordinarily would. I think it's really important to stand up to it and never saying anything helps breed it.

As you say, it's different levels of confidence, judgement calls on the day. He was very big and aggressive and I was in a weakened state (they think an endo cyst on my ovary may have ruptured on Saturday, so it was hard for me to have moved out of the way, should he get physical). I've also been attacked a couple of times unprovoked in my life. Once by a gang of aggressive boys and another time I was hit and attacked by a woman who was a released care in the community. I get panic/anxiety when someone acts aggressively and I'm in a trapped place.

It's a worry because you never know when someone can flip.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> We're a long way past trying to persuade people which way to vote, and I'm not going to do so, and nor do I want to appear confrontational, but a bit of research leads me to the following ...
> 
> This is not, it seems, a quote by Monnet, but according to one source "in fact it is a paraphrase of a characterization of Monnet's intentions by British Conservative Adrian Hilton:" (Who sounds to me like a bit of a Eurosceptic!)
> 
> And another, The Economist, has a passage ... "Even though Monnet never said this, it must have been clear to every British politician that the EEC was never intended as just a 'common trade area".
> 
> That latter is more to the point, I think - the EU and its predecessors were always intended to progress towards closer integration, and that's why the UK opted out of so many things, and have, in law, promised a referendum for any proposed change which involves a (perhaps perceived) transfer of sovereignty.
> 
> Also, I think I would question whether an attributed quote by Monnet in 1952 would be applicable to the intentions of today's Council. Just a thought.
> 
> Juncker did say this, in reference to the Greek public deciding they didn't like the bailout agreement agreed within the EU so that the ECB could continue lending Greece money. It doesn't seem to me that the Greek population should be able to decide that the other countries of the EU (andthe IMF) should simply let its government off.
> 
> It would be like a local council voting for the central government to give them more money, and then claiming the flat refusal that subsequently came their way was undemocratic.
> 
> So on that one I would just have to disagree with you.
> 
> (So as not to go on too long, I'll maybe respond to the other bit another time, but the answer is the same as I have posted in here a couple of times when the EU is accused of corruption.)
> 
> As I say, I'm not trying to change your mind - it's too late - but I often find that there is another side to the story when I do a bit of digging. Thanks for posting though!


Thanks for putting more context on the quotes! This is what debating is all about


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Don't you think that could be due to the massive cuts to the police by the tories?. Its going to get much worse when we leave.
> *Disorderly Brexit will leave us in a 'very bad place', warns counterterror chief*
> _https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1548252289
> 
> The Tories plan £32,000,000 more cuts to Counter Terrorism Police_
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5166c336-4a2f-11e7-a7b8-5e01acd01516
> 
> Prophetic.
> 
> *Manchester cop tells Theresa May police cuts WILL lead to terrorism.*


Government cuts to the police and Brexit are two different things.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I ordinarily would. I think it's really important to stand up to it and never saying anything helps breed it.
> 
> As you say, it's different levels of confidence, judgement calls on the day. He was very big and aggressive and I was in a weakened state (they think an endo cyst on my ovary may have ruptured on Saturday, so it was hard for me to have moved out of the way, should he get physical). I've also been attacked a couple of times unprovoked in my life. Once by a gang of aggressive boys and another time I was hit and attacked by a woman who was a released care in the community. I get panic/anxiety when someone acts aggressively and I'm in a trapped place.
> 
> It's a worry because you never know when someone can flip.


Im sorry to hear that. Hope you're feeling a bit better now. 
Yes , no one should put themselves in danger.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Remember this?
> Recognise her from anywhere?
> View attachment 393274


Sure do. Its the pathological liar.

Just check these out KK.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087291282119163904

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095675821459718145


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Government cuts to the police and Brexit are two different things.


Maybe but the same government who made these cuts are pushing Brexit through which wouldn't fill me with confidence even if I supported it.

People were under the impression the EU were bleeding the UK dry, hence the cuts, by funding countries within the block plus of course the alleged £350m per week they promised to spend on the NHS instead!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Oops Looks like the tories have blown another trade deal lol Ahh well at least we've got one with the Faroe Islands:Hilarious
> 
> *Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified account @tnewtondunn
> _China's Deputy PM cancels trade talks with Philip Hammond in protest at Gavin Williamson's pledge to send @HMSQNLZ to the Pacific, reveals @kateferguson4 today_


I suspect that what is left of British manufacturing is quite grateful that a trade deal with China is at least postponed for a while!


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Im sorry to hear that. Hope you're feeling a bit better now.
> Yes , no one should put themselves in danger.


Thank you, yes, I'm a bit better then I was and much better than Saturday when I was in too much pain to be moved and go to the hospital. It was quite bad pain that my body went into shock. They are now thinking I'll need surgery, even though two previous specialists advised against it due to my other conditions.

Yes, I didn't want to put myself into danger, knowing I wouldn't be able to get myself away from him quickly.

I do feel bad, but thinking about it, I doubt anything I could have said would even make a dent in him or make him see it any differently.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Government cuts to the police and Brexit are two different things.


Stop obfuscating! 

You said >>

_
"Last month, the UK's most senior counter-terrorism officer warned that law enforcement agencies had failed to keep pace with the evolving terrorist threat. "

"And that's whilst we are still in the EU? Doesn't really provide a valid reason for staying in does it?_"

I responded that this was due to tory cuts to policing. When we leave the EU we will be even more at risk. Please listen to former UK National Security Advisor explain why we will be more at risk & a no deal will be calamitous for our security. https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/0959356e-3f65-49e8-b7b6-f09c4c8d1ea7?in=14:54:10&out=14:56:00


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Thank you, yes, I'm a bit better then I was and much better than Saturday when I was in too much pain to be moved and go to the hospital. It was quite bad pain that my body went into shock. They are now thinking I'll need surgery, even though two previous specialists advised against it due to my other conditions.
> 
> Yes, I didn't want to put myself into danger, knowing I wouldn't be able to get myself away from him quickly.
> 
> I do feel bad, but thinking about it, I doubt anything I could have said would even make a dent in him or make him see it any differently.


How awful, I'm so sorry to hear this. Really hope they get you sorted out & you make a full & speedy recovery Emma x You have nothing to feel bad about, I dont think many of us would have done differently in your situation.


----------



## noushka05

*Alex Andreou*‏Verified account @sturdyAlex

_Bank of America spending $400m, to move 1300 jobs and $50bn of assets from London to Dublin and Paris because of #Brexit. 
This is irreversible and irrecoverable. Good job, UK. 
#ProjectFear #ProjectFact_

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0213/1029338-bank-of-america-brexit-bill/


----------



## noushka05

Brexit is making us weak & will isolate us.

*Brexit is national crisis, former diplomats tell Theresa May*

E*x-ambassadors and high commissioners say UK is weakened by 'fiasco'*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-diplomats-tell-theresa-may?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that what is left of British manufacturing is quite grateful that a trade deal with China is at least postponed for a while!


If it's not weapons of destruction what will it be?

It won't be Dyson. They are no longer British.

Perhaps, "England's Glory" matches, ?

Then, the last time I looked they're made in Sweden! :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Thank god I've got my allotments

*Otto English*‏: _Britain has been a net food importer of food since the Corn Laws were repealed in 1846. This is not project fear. 
Why do people think we had rationing in WW2? Is everyone just f****** stupid?_


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> How awful, I'm so sorry to hear this. Really hope they get you sorted out & you make a full & speedy recovery Emma x You have nothing to feel bad about, I dont think many of us would have done differently in your situation.


Thanks Noush. I hope so too, although I'm pretty scared of having to have an operation on it, I have to say.
Long term I would like to do something that improves and raises awareness of endometriosis. Honestly, I went to the doctors for years, and so many doctors, including female ones, told me it was completely normal to have that much pain. They only found mine as my blood tests indicated cancer, so they had to scan me under the guidelines. So many women suffer and think it's normal and they must be weak.

Sorry, I understand it's off topic!


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Thanks Noush. I hope so too, although I'm pretty scared of having to have an operation on it, I have to say.
> Long term I would like to do something that improves and raises awareness of endometriosis. Honestly, I went to the doctors for years, and so many doctors, including female ones, told me it was completely normal to have that much pain. They only found mine as my blood tests indicated cancer, so they had to scan me under the guidelines. So many women suffer and think it's normal and they must be weak.
> 
> Sorry, I understand it's off topic!


Hitting 'like' isn't exactly the right sentiment! So I'll stay off topic with you for a moment to wish you luck, freedom from pain and a speedy recovery.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> What will stop the dentists working elsewhere in the EU? Should Hungary or Slovakia build a wall to keep them in? Shouldn't people be able to choose to live & work in other countries?


As always you're twisting words to suit your own agenda.

I never said people should be stopped from working in other countries, that's a figment of your imagination

Had you read my post properly you'd have noticed it was directed at KK and his tedious non stop "I'm so hard done by", "how can the the world treat me so badly" whinging.

I dislike his total lack of thought and consideration for other people and the way it never occurs to him that when he benefits as a patient in a UK hospital it's often to the detriment of a patient in a EU one. But who cares?


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Hitting 'like' isn't exactly the right sentiment! So I'll stay off topic with you for a moment to wish you luck, freedom from pain and a speedy recovery.


Thanks Arnie. That's really kind of you.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I hope so too, although I'm pretty scared of having to have an operation on it, I have to say.
> Long term I would like to do something that improves and raises awareness of endometriosis. Honestly, I went to the doctors for years, and so many doctors, including female ones, told me it was completely normal to have that much pain. They only found mine as my blood tests indicated cancer, so they had to scan me under the guidelines. So many women suffer and think it's normal and they must be weak.
> 
> Sorry, I understand it's off topic!


We do tend to get a bit OT on this thread. I think we can include our health because it covers the subject of the NHS and therefore comes under Brexit. 

That is shocking the way you were treated .  Its horrible being in pain, your whole life revolves around it. People in real life don't tend to understand what its like especially if its something that's not visible. 

It is very scary having an op and I don't blame you for being scared . I had one last year and I was worried I would die under the anaesthetic. I made a new will and a list of instructions but obviously I didn't ! The worst thing about it was the food and it was cold at night but luckily I was allowed home the next day.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> We do tend to get a bit OT on this thread. I think we can include our health because it covers the subject of the NHS and therefore comes under Brexit.
> 
> That is shocking the way you were treated .  Its horrible being in pain, your whole life revolves around it. People in real life don't tend to understand what its like especially if its something that's not visible.
> 
> It is very scary having an op and I don't blame you for being scared . I had one last year and I was worried I would die under the anaesthetic. I made a new will and a list of instructions but obviously I didn't ! The worst thing about it was the food and it was cold at night but luckily I was allowed home the next day.


Haha, yes I did think that, that any health thing can come under the umbrella too as the NHS will be affected, and also it was brought into the campaign!

I know, I actually knew I had endo years ago, maybe over ten, I had this really weird pain and I saw someone talking about it and it just hit me that that's what I had. I went to the dr a lot with the pain I couldn't manage with. I used to turn green with the pain.
I think the problem is that it's something that does cause pain, so it's easy to dismiss people and say 'oh women get that'. Some of the worst were women doctors, and I think they kind of think you just can't tolerate the pain all women get. It's odd, but it's horrific pain. But as you said, I look normal, so nobody can see it!

That's what I'm worried about, I have a fear of going under and just not waking up. Bless you doing a will. I think I'll have to have hypnotherapy or something if I have to go under!


----------



## cheekyscrip

emmaviolet said:


> Haha, yes I did think that, that any health thing can come under the umbrella too as the NHS will be affected, and also it was brought into the campaign!
> 
> I know, I actually knew I had endo years ago, maybe over ten, I had this really weird pain and I saw someone talking about it and it just hit me that that's what I had. I went to the dr a lot with the pain I couldn't manage with. I used to turn green with the pain.
> I think the problem is that it's something that does cause pain, so it's easy to dismiss people and say 'oh women get that'. Some of the worst were women doctors, and I think they kind of think you just can't tolerate the pain all women get. It's odd, but it's horrific pain. But as you said, I look normal, so nobody can see it!
> 
> That's what I'm worried about, I have a fear of going under and just not waking up. Bless you doing a will. I think I'll have to have hypnotherapy or something if I have to go under!


Think about just having a good nap and getting better.

So sorry you had such rubbish health care .

Think Pf will send our best vibes to make sure you will be fine!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Think Pf will send our best vibes to make sure you will be fine!


Indeed Cheeky.

In spite our differences on the thread I'm sure we can all unite for once in sending Emma lots of our love and wishes. for a speedy recovery.


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Thanks Noush. I hope so too, although I'm pretty scared of having to have an operation on it, I have to say.
> Long term I would like to do something that improves and raises awareness of endometriosis. Honestly, I went to the doctors for years, and so many doctors, including female ones, told me it was completely normal to have that much pain. They only found mine as my blood tests indicated cancer, so they had to scan me under the guidelines. So many women suffer and think it's normal and they must be weak.
> 
> Sorry, I understand it's off topic!


You have all my sympathy, endometriosis is a horrible condition. My Cousin has it & used to suffer terrible crippling pain too, I'd probably have never heard of it otherwise, so good on you for wanting to do something to raise awareness of it. Sounds as though you've been really let down by your doctors, hopefully now they are aware of your condition you will get the best of care. Sending all my very best wishes for the op and your recovery afterwards Emma . Take care & keep us updated xx


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Of course no Remainers are racist! Well yes they are.
> I'm glad you agree that racism exists between races .
> 
> I can give examples of other racism
> if you like.
> Shamefully , there are many nasty people out there of all races.


Hmmm... I don't recall Remainers giving speeches that incited racial hatred then and now!

Yes, some from different "ethnic" backgrounds did indeed vote leave. Something to do with the false promises of easier access to the UK in preference over the "Queue jumpers" I seem to recall.

I agree it exists between all races though. You only have to look at the likes of Mugabe and Amin for example.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Hmmm... I don't recall Remainers giving speeches that incited racial hatred then and now!
> 
> Yes, some from different "ethnic" backgrounds did indeed vote leave. Something to do with the false promises of easier access to the UK in preference over the "Queue jumpers" I seem to recall.
> 
> I agree it exists between all races though. You only have to look at the likes of Mugabe and Amin for example.


Oh come on now, you're saying that there are zero and I mean ZERO racists amongst the whole population of people that voted in favour of remain. Get a grip of yourself


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Had you read my post properly you'd have noticed it was directed at KK and his tedious non stop "I'm so hard done by", "how can the the world treat me so badly" whinging.


I understand that people want to fight their corner but I dont understand why people want to waste their time being extremely angry over something that very possible isnt going to change or be more difficult. eg retiring to the EU after Brexit. Life's too short and precious to waste like that, not to mention the affect on their health .


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh come on now, you're saying that there are zero and I mean ZERO racists amongst the whole population of people that voted in favour of remain. Get a grip of yourself


This might help .


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> As always you're twisting words to suit your own agenda.
> 
> I never said people should be stopped from working in other countries, that's a figment of your imagination
> 
> Had you read my post properly you'd have noticed it was directed at KK and his tedious non stop "I'm so hard done by", "how can the the world treat me so badly" whinging.
> 
> I dislike his total lack of thought and consideration for other people and the way it never occurs to him that when he benefits as a patient in a UK hospital it's often to the detriment of a patient in a EU one. But who cares?


Well Freedom of movement is ending here, thats what brexit was about - and you support brexit whilst I believe in the principles of Freedom of movement. Many dentists who _chose _to work & live in this country probably came here for a better life, maybe they will move move back to their country of birth or maybe they will use the gift of Freedom of movement go elsewhere in the EU. And UK qualified dentists have had enough too.

*BDA Chair Mick Armstrong said:*

_
"Government has failed to even acknowledge the scale of the crisis that's been facing dentistry for several years. Broken NHS contracts, rock bottom morale and now Brexit are all taking their toll.

"The writing is now on the wall for too many European and UK qualified dentists. Government needs to wake up, and smell the coffee. NHS dentistry can't be run without dentists."_

https://www.bda.org/news-centre/pre...dium=twitter&utm_campaign=nhs-dentists-exodus

KK clearly has social values & speaks out against political parties & politicians who do not, so of course they care. Our NHS is falling apart because of the tories & brexit will be the nail in the coffin of our health service. Do people who support the tories and/or brexit care?

We know brexit with be catastrophic for our NHS, we know thousands of people have already died due to tory cuts to the NHS & social care & we know people are going to die due to medical shortages yet you are one of brexits greatest champions. The tories are paying brinkmanship with the lives of 65 million people. But who cares? Do people who support the tories and/or brexit care? KK does.

Who cares about this?
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...6e4b00187b5579f64?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001










This?


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh come on now, you're saying that there are zero and I mean ZERO racists amongst the whole population of people that voted in favour of remain. Get a grip of yourself


I can't speak for KK, but to reiterate what I said to @kimthecat -

Both the leave campaigns ran a racist campaigns. Many people believe the lies about immigrants. You had people blaming the housing crisis on migrants. Blaming migrants for the crisis in our NHS & public services. When in reality it was ALL governments fault. Every key racist & racist organisation supported brexit. It was obvious a vote to leave was going to fan the flames of racism.

.............................................


----------



## noushka05

Terrifying.

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis 17h17 hours ago
The ERG now has 93 Tory MPs on its 'whip' - a party within a party which now comprises more than half of all backbench Tory MPs


----------



## noushka05

A day late lol


----------



## noushka05

Caroline Lucas:

_Government's position on No Deal #Brexit is not just criminally reckless - it is plain stupid.
EU knows No Deal would hurt us far more than them.

Threatening to put a gun to our own heads is not a clever negotiating strategy.
PM must rule out No Deal now.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1096043137825423362_


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I can't speak for KK, but to reiterate what I said to @kimthecat -
> 
> Both the leave campaigns ran a racist campaigns. Many people believe the lies about immigrants. You had people blaming the housing crisis on migrants. Blaming migrants for the crisis in our NHS & public services. When in reality it was ALL governments fault. Every key racist & racist organisation supported brexit. It was obvious a vote to leave was going to fan the flames of racism.
> 
> .............................................


Being against uncontrolled immigration is not inherently racist though


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Well Freedom of movement is ending here, thats what brexit was about - and you support brexit whilst I believe in the principles of Freedom of movement


Freedom of movement is not really changing all that much, we simply have to pay a small fee to travel the whole of the EU. @stockwellcat went into this long ago in this thread.
Once again we are going around in circles.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> As always you're twisting words to suit your own agenda.
> 
> I never said people should be stopped from working in other countries, that's a figment of your imagination
> 
> Had you read my post properly you'd have noticed it was directed at KK and his tedious non stop "I'm so hard done by", "how can the the world treat me so badly" whinging.
> 
> I dislike his total lack of thought and consideration for other people and the way it never occurs to him that when he benefits as a patient in a UK hospital it's often to the detriment of a patient in a EU one. But who cares?


You've got me completely wrong there, but you're entitled to your opinion and your right to express it.

Let's make the most of it while we can as freedom of expression must never be taken for granted.

I'm pretty thick skinned don't you worry, not sure about "Pretty" though. The joys of the English language...

What you are suggesting, if you don't mind me saying so is people should be prevented from leaving a country.

It's rather contradictory for you to say you never suggested or believe that, then complain about professionals moving to other countries like the UK as they pay better wages!

This of course has been tried before in the days of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall. Perhaps you think it would be a good idea to have this reinstated?

It would certainly solve the problem of professionals leaving by forcing them to work in their own countries.

I get what you are trying to say though. Shouldn't the government itself be making it more attractive for people to remain, or indeed recruit professionals from other countries?

And yourself personally speaking. You left a country to move to another yourself on more than one occasion!

Do you think you should have been stopped from leaving the UK to seek a better life elsewhere?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> the affect on their health .


I wonder what it does to their blood pressure??


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Caroline Lucas:
> 
> _Government's position on No Deal #Brexit is not just criminally reckless - it is plain stupid.
> EU knows No Deal would hurt us far more than them.
> 
> Threatening to put a gun to our own heads is not a clever negotiating strategy.
> PM must rule out No Deal now.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1096043137825423362_


This is precisely what I don't understand* about the ERG position. They say that the threat of No Deal will force the EU to make concessions, yet, while the EU economy would undoubtedly suffer through No Deal, it would pretty much cripple us even if the warnings of food and medicine shortages are over-egged. If the prospect of No Deal is going to force a concession from anyone, it'll be us!

* Actually I do understand it, because the ERG don't much care about EU concessions; they actively want a No Deal, so the last thing they want is to have it removed from the list of options.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Being against uncontrolled immigration is not inherently racist though


Some people voted remain, because they use cheap labour from abroad and want to continue to do so. They have expressed racist sentiments in the pub. Eg they want cheap, hard working Polish and Romanian workers for their farm, not cheap Africans, or Middle Easterns and not b* Muslim terrorists as they put it. So they'd rather stay in.

There will be businesses moving away from the U.K. for cheap labour in places like India. They didn't want the U.K. to stay in the Eu for nicey nicey reasons, but for profit.

However, they get ignored in the general throwing of insults, because they didn't vote leave and accusations of racism, greed etc are aimed at leave voters, not remain. A racist, is a racist and if you hadn't heard or seen racist talk before the referendum, you weren't paying attention imho. These people behaved in the same way before, as they did after it, we have become more sensitive to it, in part because it suits our agendas imo. They are the kind of people who trash talk about the LGBTQ communities too, which hardly gets mentioned today, because it can't be pinned on Brexit. 

My area policing brought in a zero tolerance on hate crimes in the National hate crime awareness week, in October 2016. After the referendum. I gather 'hate crime awareness week' started well before that. Years before the referendum anyhow. It can't all be pinned on brexit, but some of the increase in awareness and policing it can be. If racists may have felt emboldened and encouraged by the vote, they can be under no misapprehension of what decent folk think of it.


----------



## KittenKong

This is very interesting. Well worth a read.

Don't forget, if May gets her deal passed it only postpones this until the end of the transition period.

https://www.thelocal.se/20190214/co...u-can-expect-in-the-event-of-a-no-deal-brexit


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Some people voted remain, because they use cheap labour from abroad and want to continue to do so. They have expressed racist sentiments in the pub. Eg they want cheap, hard working Polish and Romanian workers for their farm, not cheap Africans, or Middle Easterns and not b* Muslim terrorists as they put it. So they'd rather stay in.
> 
> There will be businesses moving away from the U.K. for cheap labour in places like India. They didn't want the U.K. to stay in the Eu for nicey nicey reasons, but for profit.
> 
> However, they get ignored in the general throwing of insults, because they didn't vote leave and accusations of racism, greed etc are aimed at leave voters, not remain. A racist, is a racist and if you hadn't heard or seen racist talk before the referendum, you weren't paying attention imho. These people behaved in the same way before, as they did after it, we have become more sensitive to it, in part because it suits our agendas imo. They are the kind of people who trash talk about the LGBTQ communities too, which hardly gets mentioned today, because it can't be pinned on Brexit.
> 
> My area policing brought in a zero tolerance on hate crimes in the National hate crime awareness week, in October 2016. After the referendum. I gather 'hate crime awareness week' started well before that. Years before the referendum anyhow. It can't all be pinned on brexit, but some of the increase in awareness and policing it can be. If racists may have felt emboldened and encouraged by the vote, they can be under no misapprehension of what decent folk think of it.


No offense, but what does any of that have to do with uncontrolled immigration? I am not denying that racism exists and that there is far too much negatives pushed at the LGBTQ community


----------



## emmaviolet

Thanks @noushka05 and @cheekyscrip 
It may sound as if I have been let down by GP's, and perhaps I really have, but sadly it's actually very common amongst women with endo.

Thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## noushka05

]



AlexPed2393 said:


> Being against uncontrolled immigration is not inherently racist though


UK already had the power to control immigration. You were lied to Alex.





















AlexPed2393 said:


> Freedom of movement is not really changing all that much, we simply have to pay a small fee to travel the whole of the EU. @stockwellcat went into this long ago in this thread.
> Once again we are going around in circles.


Of course it is. Once again this shows just how badly informed some people still are.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Some people voted remain, because they use cheap labour from abroad and want to continue to do so. They have expressed racist sentiments in the pub. Eg they want cheap, hard working Polish and Romanian workers for their farm, not cheap Africans, or Middle Easterns and not b* Muslim terrorists as they put it. So they'd rather stay in.
> 
> There will be businesses moving away from the U.K. for cheap labour in places like India. They didn't want the U.K. to stay in the Eu for nicey nicey reasons, but for profit.
> 
> However, they get ignored in the general throwing of insults, because they didn't vote leave and accusations of racism, greed etc are aimed at leave voters, not remain. A racist, is a racist and if you hadn't heard or seen racist talk before the referendum, you weren't paying attention imho. These people behaved in the same way before, as they did after it, we have become more sensitive to it, in part because it suits our agendas imo. They are the kind of people who trash talk about the LGBTQ communities too, which hardly gets mentioned today, because it can't be pinned on Brexit.


Arguably, I would call that more discriminatory than actually racist though, yet it's bad enough and should not be tolerated.

Yes, people from other countries have indeed been exploited by unscrupulous employers, but in the majority of cases people arrived in the UK to work voluntarily.

They are often said to be better grafters than the "British", which you might consider to be racist in itself!

After Brexit, " British" people such as the unemployed could be forced to do these jobs others used to do to qualify for their benefits.

Many in the right of the Conservative Party support this idea, which after a right-wing power grab that partially explains the urgency for Brexit, this is likely to happen together with the privatisation of the NHS etc.

Haven't you forgotten YTS and "Employment Training"? That was great for employers who were able to " Let go" of paid staff and replace them with people at the taxpayer's expense!

My own understanding of racists are those who do not wish to see people from different countries or cultures set foot on their glorious British soil.

The National Front wanted a "White Britain" for example. They wouldn't tolerate immigrants coming to the UK to do the jobs a white British person wouldn't do I would have thought.

Each and every one of such people. would have voted to leave.

I wouldn't regard anyone who wishes to recruit staff from overseas racist personally speaking, even if their attitude towards them stinks and is not acceptable.


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh come on now, you're saying that there are zero and I mean ZERO racists amongst the whole population of people that voted in favour of remain. Get a grip of yourself


remains, leavers or anyone else you'll never completely stamp out any type of racist, it's always been here and always will in one form or another.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> No offense, but what does any of that have to do with uncontrolled immigration? I am not denying that racism exists and that there is far too much negatives pushed at the LGBTQ community


It has to do with people believing that no remain voters are racist, hate crime is only racism and all nasty stuff is brexit and leave voter's fault. Being against uncontrolled immigration doesn't make you a nasty racist, being a nasty racist makes you a nasty racist.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> It has to do with people believing that no remain voters are racist, hate crime is only racism and all nasty stuff is brexit and leave voter's fault. Being against uncontrolled immigration doesn't make you a nasty racist, being a nasty racist makes you a nasty racist.


Oh right, sorry my head was a bit scrambled .

Totally agree with you


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> ]
> 
> UK already had the power to control immigration. You were lied to Alex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. Once again this shows just how badly informed some people still are.


gaaaaaah you do twist words, where do you find all these images from?


----------



## KittenKong

Brexit Muppet?
Grrr..... We'll fight them on the beaches....
:Hilarious


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> but in the majority of cases people arrived in the UK to work voluntarily.


Damn right, if you are migrating to another country without the intent to work or earn a living then you are the example that people who want to totally shut borders will use



KittenKong said:


> My own understanding of racists are those who do not wish to see people from different countries or cultures set foot on their glorious British soil.


nope, nope, nope. A racist is a person who does not provide the same opportunities to people of a different race, or treats someone differently because of their race. This does not mean people who do not want illegal immigrants coming into the country are inherently racist


----------



## KittenKong

Excellent analysis from the US.
How the UK has become a global laughing stock...

https://www.facebook.com/1564824773823879/posts/1976215359351483/


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> gaaaaaah you do twist words, where do you find all these images from?


She plainly has too much time on her hands.

Sorry Noush!! I couldn't resist.

You know I love you really :Kiss


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> My own understanding of racists are those who do not wish to see people from different countries or cultures set foot on their glorious British soil.


Um, no, not really!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Um, no, not really!


Racial and discrimination. Combined into Racial discrimination.

You have a point there.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Racial and discrimination. Combined into Racial discrimination.
> 
> You have a point there.


You just don't listen to other peoples side of the argument do you :Banghead:Wacky:Mooning


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> gaaaaaah you do twist words, where do you find all these images from?


I'm not twisting your words. Your words seemed to imply you believed we have uncontrolled immigration, when we dont. We always had the power to 'control our borders'. Theresa May chose not to.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-may-isnt-telling-the-whole-story-on-immigration


----------



## KittenKong

Not often I agree with Michael Portillo, but he's absolutely spot on here.
https://www.facebook.com/1564824773823879/posts/1976215359351483/


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> You just don't listen to other peoples side of the argument do you :Banghead:Wacky:Mooning


That's a bit unfair seeing I accepted Millie's point of view on that matter.


----------



## KittenKong

Worth bearing in mind. And check your Insurance has international coverage.

Could cost a small fortune crossing the border.

Not forgetting mobile phone roaming charges which could apply near the ROI border even if still in NI.

Not scaremongering, this is serious.

No use saying it won't happen, as no one knows yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-47240935


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> That's a bit unfair seeing I accepted Millie's point of view.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You've got me completely wrong there, but you're entitled to your opinion and your right to express it.
> 
> Let's make the most of it while we can as freedom of expression must never be taken for granted.
> 
> I'm pretty thick skinned don't you worry, not sure about "Pretty" though. The joys of the English language...
> 
> What you are suggesting, if you don't mind me saying so is people should be prevented from leaving a country.
> 
> It's rather contradictory for you to say you never suggested or believe that, then complain about professionals moving to other countries like the UK as they pay better wages!
> 
> This of course has been tried before in the days of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall. Perhaps you think it would be a good idea to have this reinstated?
> 
> It would certainly solve the problem of professionals leaving by forcing them to work in their own countries.
> 
> I get what you are trying to say though. Shouldn't the government itself be making it more attractive for people to remain, or indeed recruit professionals from other countries?
> 
> And yourself personally speaking. You left a country to move to another yourself on more than one occasion!
> 
> Do you think you should have been stopped from leaving the UK to seek a better life elsewhere?


What on earth are your warbling on about?

The idea of preventing people working and living overseas and putting up some form of wall to prevent them from leaving their own country was @noushka05. idea, not mine.



noushka05 said:


> What will stop the dentists working elsewhere in the EU? Should Hungary or Slovakia build a wall to keep them in? Shouldn't people be able to choose to live & work in other countries?


Perhaps you should speak to her?


----------



## Magyarmum

_*The Daily Mash







*_

*The white person's guide to pretending you're a victim of racism*
15th February 2019

*ARE you a right-wing bellend who thinks racism against white people is a genuine problem? Here's how to enjoy a pleasing sense of victimhood.*

*Claim your culture is under threat*

Vehemently claim 'your culture' is under threat, then when pressed for examples only manage to come up with random things like cricket, tea and the royal family that are about as threatened as Tyson Fury in a fight with Jacob Rees-Mogg.

*Use an incredibly strange definition of racism*

Basically: 'people disagreeing with you', even though you constantly spout bonkers patriotic nonsense any sane person would balk at, especially when you seem to think it's still 1941.

On a practical level, what you call 'racism' is usually someone arguing with you on the internet. This is good, because real racism like job discrimination and people shouting abuse would take all the fun out of being a victim.

*Don't forget Brexit*

Criticising Brexit is racial prejudice against white Britons because they all support it, except they don't, and the EU hates Britain, except that's clearly bollocks. Apart from those minor points the logic is fine.

*Feel aggrieved by extremely hypothetical situations*

For example, convince yourself you could never be a BBC newsreader because you're not an ethnic minority. Ignore the fact that you're in no way qualified, have never shown any interest in a career in journalism and think the BBC should be blown up anyway.

*Make up your own reality*

Is the roughly 82% 'white British' population of Britain likely to die out? Yes. Are the 'thought police' likely to boot in your door at 3am? Yes. With a bit of imagination you can enjoy being the victim of racism every day!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> What on earth are your warbling on about?
> 
> The idea of preventing people working and living overseas and putting up some form of wall to prevent them from leaving their own country was @noushka05. idea, not mine.
> 
> Perhaps you should speak to her?


Ahem, unless I'm mistaken, it was yourself who complained about staff leaving the country to work for better wages elsewhere and within the EU that resulted in staffing problems.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, unless I'm mistaken, it was yourself who complained about staff leaving the country to work for better wages elsewhere and within the EU that resulted in staffing problems.


It's a fact of life and happens all over the world. The hospital I worked for in South Africa lost a good percentage of its nurses to the UK, the US, Australia and Canada.

But The point you're missing and what you are accusing me of, is that I have NEVER said that people's movement should be restricted!

Got it??????


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> _*The Daily Mash*_
> 
> *The white person's guide to pretending you're a victim of racism*
> 15th February 2019
> 
> *ARE you a right-wing bellend who thinks racism against white people is a genuine problem? Here's how to enjoy a pleasing sense of victimhood.*
> 
> *Claim your culture is under threat*
> 
> Vehemently claim 'your culture' is under threat, then when pressed for examples only manage to come up with random things like cricket, tea and the royal family that are about as threatened as Tyson Fury in a fight with Jacob Rees-Mogg.
> 
> *Use an incredibly strange definition of racism*
> 
> Basically: 'people disagreeing with you', even though you constantly spout bonkers patriotic nonsense any sane person would balk at, especially when you seem to think it's still 1941.
> 
> On a practical level, what you call 'racism' is usually someone arguing with you on the internet. This is good, because real racism like job discrimination and people shouting abuse would take all the fun out of being a victim.
> 
> *Don't forget Brexit*
> 
> Criticising Brexit is racial prejudice against white Britons because they all support it, except they don't, and the EU hates Britain, except that's clearly bollocks. Apart from those minor points the logic is fine.
> 
> *Feel aggrieved by extremely hypothetical situations*
> 
> For example, convince yourself you could never be a BBC newsreader because you're not an ethnic minority. Ignore the fact that you're in no way qualified, have never shown any interest in a career in journalism and think the BBC should be blown up anyway.
> 
> *Make up your own reality*
> 
> Is the roughly 82% 'white British' population of Britain likely to die out? Yes. Are the 'thought police' likely to boot in your door at 3am? Yes. With a bit of imagination you can enjoy being the victim of racism every day!


Many a true word spoken in jest !


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> It's a fact of life and happens all over the world. The hospital I worked for in South Africa lost a good percentage of its nurses to the UK, the US, Australia and Canada.
> 
> But The point you're missing and what you are accusing me of, is that I have NEVER said that people's movement should be restricted!
> 
> Got it??????


We'll, yes, but by backing Theresa May and Brexit this is exactly what you are supporting as it will certainly restrict the movement of people!

Then, I could have got that wrong and you support freedom of movement???


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Cats to be main food providers post-Brexit*
15th February 2019









*DOMESTIC cats are set to provide over 50 per cent of British meals in the event of a no-deal Brexit.*

If ports are blocked and supermarket shelves empty it will fall to Britain's felines to show some Dunkirk spirit and bring their owners a tasty bit of sparrow.

Cat owner Donna Sheridan said: "I used to be furious about Mr Boots bringing in dead animals, but that was before anyone had heard of Jacob Rees-Mogg.

"Now he'll be doing his bit for the household food supply. We'll be sitting by the cat flap, stomachs rumbling, grateful for anything he brings in of an evening.

"Mice, dead birds, the odd rat if we're lucky, perhaps a wood pigeon for Christmas dinner. And, much as I hate to say this, if things get really desperate there's always Mr Boots himself.

"I always wondered why he used to stare at us in that superior way of his, as if he knew something we didn't. Now I know."

Mr Boots said: "You mess with highly integrated modern supply chains and just-in-time deliveries at your peril. Right, who fancies a decapitated mouse?"


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> What does this really have to do with Brexit?


It has everything to do with it.

Theresa May is insinuating we will all have to get used to poorer quality food outside the EU and we should take on her example by scraping off the mould.

Next, they'll be abolishing Sell By, (Best Before and Use By), dates, arguing they're a health and safety inconvenience.


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="KittenKong, post: 1065387421, member: 1431226"Some from different "ethnic" backgrounds did indeed vote leave. Something to do with the false promises of easier access to the UK in preference over the "Queue jumpers" I seem to recall.[/QUOTE]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...xit-lies-curry-vote-leave-restaurant-industry


----------



## KittenKong

"A German grandmother who came to Britain in the final year of the Second World War says that being forced to "register" before Brexit feels like "what the Third Reich did with the Jews".

Karin Vaughan, 73, received a letter last week demanding that she officially record her status as a German national at Edinburgh registrar's office.

She has lived in Britain since 1945, when she was four months old. She worked as a primary school teacher and now lives in Fife. She has two sons and three grandchildren.

Mrs Vaughan is one of 3.8 million people who are expected to apply to stay in Britain after Brexit. Registration must be done in person in Edinburgh, the only Scottish centre, although people with an android…"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-registration-has-echoes-of-third-reich-x27twh85k


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash*
> 
> *Cats to be main food providers post-Brexit*
> 15th February 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *DOMESTIC cats are set to provide over 50 per cent of British meals in the event of a no-deal Brexit.*
> 
> If ports are blocked and supermarket shelves empty it will fall to Britain's felines to show some Dunkirk spirit and bring their owners a tasty bit of sparrow.
> 
> Cat owner Donna Sheridan said: "I used to be furious about Mr Boots bringing in dead animals, but that was before anyone had heard of Jacob Rees-Mogg.
> 
> "Now he'll be doing his bit for the household food supply. We'll be sitting by the cat flap, stomachs rumbling, grateful for anything he brings in of an evening.
> 
> "Mice, dead birds, the odd rat if we're lucky, perhaps a wood pigeon for Christmas dinner. And, much as I hate to say this, if things get really desperate there's always Mr Boots himself.
> 
> "I always wondered why he used to stare at us in that superior way of his, as if he knew something we didn't. Now I know."
> 
> Mr Boots said: "You mess with highly integrated modern supply chains and just-in-time deliveries at your peril. Right, who fancies a decapitated mouse?"


*I think I'll have go down to a Cat Rescue and adopt a Kitty *


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Gosh, I'm not the only one who sees Theresa May as a potential Robert Mugabe.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Brexit Muppet?
> Grrr..... We'll fight them on the beaches....
> :Hilarious
> View attachment 393406


 I want one of those !


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> She plainly has too much time on her hands.
> 
> Sorry Noush!! I couldn't resist.
> 
> You know I love you really :Kiss


Actually ....


----------



## KittenKong

This is terrible:

From Food Babe on FB

You know what you'll find in almost every restaurant in America? Heinz Tomato Ketchup. Heinz ketchup is GMO-free in the U.K. but full of GMOs and High Fructose Corn Syrup in the U.S., along with lab-produced "natural flavouring" that helps create an addiction to their product. Think of this next time you're dipping your fries in and can't stop!

Why the double standard? If a company can get away with using cheaper ingredients, they will. It all comes down to their bottom line... at the expense of our health.

I dedicated an entire chapter in my latest book to this subject because there is so much more you need to know! The food industry doesn't care about your health, so you really need to. Pick up your copy of Feeding You Lies: https://FeedingYouLies.com


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> We'll, yes, but by backing Theresa May and Brexit this is exactly what you are supporting as it will certainly restrict the movement of people!
> 
> Then, I could have got that wrong and you support freedom of movement???


As a UK citizen living in an EU country why would I support restriction of movement when it's clearly not in my interest?

As an immigrant myself wouldn't it be hypocritical of me to discriminate against other migrants or migration?

You still don't get the simple point I was trying to make so let's try again!

Imagine you're a Bulgarian living in Sofia or a Romanian living Bucharest.

You're rushed to the A&E with acute appendicitis. You lie on the stretcher in absolute agony, terrified if your appendix bursts you could die from peritonitis.

Eventually someone comes along and tells you they're sorry but because most of their doctors and nurses are now working in the UK, the hospital is severely understaffed,

As a result they have no idea how many hours it will be before you can be taken for surgery or even how long before a nurse has time to give you a pain killer, but not to worry someone will see you eventually. In the meantime you'll just have to grin and bear it!

I don't think you be a very happy little chappy!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> As a UK citizen living in an EU country why would I support restriction of movement when it's clearly not in my interest?
> 
> As an immigrant myself wouldn't it be hypocritical of me to discriminate against other migrants or migration?
> 
> You still don't get the simple point I was trying to make so let's try again!
> 
> Imagine you're a Bulgarian living in Sofia or a Romanian living Bucharest.
> 
> You're rushed to the A&E with acute appendicitis. You lie on the stretcher in absolute agony, terrified if your appendix bursts you could die from peritonitis.
> 
> Eventually someone comes along and tells you they're sorry but because most of their doctors and nurses are now working in the UK, the hospital is severely understaffed,
> 
> As a result they have no idea how many hours it will be before you can be taken for surgery or even how long before a nurse has time to give you a pain killer, but not to worry someone will see you eventually. In the meantime you'll just have to grin and bear it!
> 
> I don't think you be a very happy little chappy!


Plenty of people vote against their own best interests all the time. Even people who rely on our NHS support the tories despite their ideology of marketisation & privatisation being the antithesis to principles of our NHS. Trump is in power because millions of people voted against their own best interests. And thats why we have brexit. Though to be fair to we were poorly informed & bombarded with lies - if people support it now we are far better informed & we can plainly see its going to a disaster, then they are going against their own best interests.

Unlike yourself, some UK immigrants dont see themselves as immigrants at all, but 'ex pats' And some are now regretting voting for brexit because its suddenly dawned on them it might affect them too!

This is what English exceptionalism looks like

A_nyway here's a bunch of Brexiter Brits living in Spain only now realising that an end to free movement would also apply to them.

"I never thought they'd take away *my* freedom of movement," says man who voted for the take away freedom of movement party."

_

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094698314912722944
.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is terrible:
> 
> From Food Babe on FB
> 
> You know what you'll find in almost every restaurant in America? Heinz Tomato Ketchup. Heinz ketchup is GMO-free in the U.K. but full of GMOs and High Fructose Corn Syrup in the U.S., along with lab-produced "natural flavouring" that helps create an addiction to their product. Think of this next time you're dipping your fries in and can't stop!
> 
> Why the double standard? If a company can get away with using cheaper ingredients, they will. It all comes down to their bottom line... at the expense of our health.
> 
> I dedicated an entire chapter in my latest book to this subject because there is so much more you need to know! The food industry doesn't care about your health, so you really need to. Pick up your copy of Feeding You Lies: https://FeedingYouLies.com
> View attachment 393532


https://www.euractiv.com/section/ag...ity-food-after-pressure-from-eastern-members/

*EU bans dual quality food after pressure from eastern members*

https://www.beuc.eu/publications/beuc-x-2018-031_beuc_position_paper_on_dual_quality.pdf

*DUAL PRODUCT QUALITY ACROSS EUROPE: STATE-OF PLAY AND THE WAY FORWARD*


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euractiv.com/section/ag...ity-food-after-pressure-from-eastern-members/
> 
> *EU bans dual quality food after pressure from eastern members*
> 
> https://www.beuc.eu/publications/beuc-x-2018-031_beuc_position_paper_on_dual_quality.pdf
> 
> *DUAL PRODUCT QUALITY ACROSS EUROPE: STATE-OF PLAY AND THE WAY FORWARD*


Can't read through them today, a bit busy :Shamefullyembarrased

Is there anything in there that states they will go to the higher standard and not just standardize?

Could we all not be eating lower standard food because the EU wants us all eating the same?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Plenty of people vote against their own best interests all the time. Even people who rely on our NHS support the tories despite their ideology of marketisation & privatisation being the antithesis to principles of our NHS. Trump is in power because millions of people voted against their own best interests. And thats why we have brexit. Though to be fair to we were poorly informed & bombarded with lies - if people support it now we are far better informed & we can plainly see its going to a disaster, then they are going against their own best interests.
> 
> Unlike yourself, some UK immigrants dont see themselves as immigrants at all, but 'ex pats' And some are now regretting voting for brexit because its suddenly dawned on them it might affect them too!
> 
> This is what English exceptionalism looks like
> 
> A_nyway here's a bunch of Brexiter Brits living in Spain only now realising that an end to free movement would also apply to them.
> 
> "I never thought they'd take away *my* freedom of movement," says man who voted for the take away freedom of movement party."
> 
> _
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094698314912722944
> .


Because people are scared into doing so. I'm reminded of an article in The Sun over Labour's defense policy which, that alone resulted in some Labour voters I knew voting Tory in 1987.

The media just love this. They're doing it again with front pages dominated by a stupid woman who wants to return to the UK, photographed in dress with a mention of terrorists.

What a brilliant distraction to the farce that's going on with Brexit at the moment! Social media has gone into overdrive with this, but I'll not drift off topic.

Oh yes, I was once told not to vote for Corbyn as he would let all the immigrants in, from a relative in fact.

I wonder where he got that from...

It's little things like this that keep the great British public brainwashed by scaring them.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euractiv.com/section/ag...ity-food-after-pressure-from-eastern-members/
> 
> *EU bans dual quality food after pressure from eastern members*
> 
> https://www.beuc.eu/publications/beuc-x-2018-031_beuc_position_paper_on_dual_quality.pdf
> 
> *DUAL PRODUCT QUALITY ACROSS EUROPE: STATE-OF PLAY AND THE WAY FORWARD*


This is irrelevant as far as the UK is concerned as it will no longer meet EU standards anyway.

What is well known is the keenest in lowering food standards to those "Enjoyed" in the US with hormone enhanced meat, chlorinated chicken just to get a trade deal with the US.

To think they put addictive chemicals in their version of Tomato Ketchup is scary indeed. I'm only pleased I'm not keen on ketchup in the first place.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is irrelevant as far as the UK is concerned as it will no longer meet EU standards anyway.
> 
> What is well known is the keenest in lowering food standards to those "Enjoyed" in the US with hormone enhanced meat, chlorinated chicken just to get a trade deal with the US.
> 
> To think they put addictive chemicals in their version of Tomato Ketchup is scary indeed. I'm only pleased I'm not keen on ketchup in the first place.


But as Heinz products are manufacture in the UK there is no reason to alter their standards.

https://www.heinz.co.uk/our-company/about-heinz/heinz-uk-and-ireland

*Heinz UK and Ireland*

https://www.heinz.co.uk/products/tomato_ketchup/products/heinz-tomato-ketchup


----------



## Magyarmum

A well balanced video from France in Focus on France 24

https://www.france24.com/en/2019021...ench-companies-impact-exports-calais-measures

*Bracing for Brexit: France prepares for divorce*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> But as Heinz products are manufactured in the UK there is no reason to alter their standards.
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/our-company/about-heinz/heinz-uk-and-ireland
> 
> *Heinz UK and Ireland*
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/products/tomato_ketchup/products/heinz-tomato-ketchup


Fair do's. Let's hope they continue to manufacture in the UK and not import from the US in future!


----------



## KittenKong

Interesting article from a Greek point of view.

https://www.busiweek.com/a-very-greek-brexit/


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Interesting article from a Greek point of view.
> 
> https://www.busiweek.com/a-very-greek-brexit/
> 
> View attachment 393543
> View attachment 393544


It is really obvious to any who would see it that the ERG bunch are not interested in Brexit + 1 day, 1 month or 1 year. Their aim is and always has been what they see as 'independence' from the EU rules. What happens afterwards is to be addressed as and when. And in any case the problems will largely pass them by. The badly hit will be the poor, but they are collateral damage and a price worth paying.

Of course they put forward a number of fanciful suggestions - whether it be Minford's zero tariff world trade policy, or their Irish border solution of uninvented technology - to make it sound to the person in the street that the future is both simple and attractive - and only prevented by a bullying, intransigent EU - but they are not stupid enough to believe it themselves. They just want out.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> But as Heinz products are manufacture in the UK there is no reason to alter their standards.
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/our-company/about-heinz/heinz-uk-and-ireland
> 
> *Heinz UK and Ireland*
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/products/tomato_ketchup/products/heinz-tomato-ketchup


One would hope so. Although Cadbury is also UK production, and the general quality of their products has lowered since the takeover by Kraft, so there are no guarantees.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> One would hope so. Although Cadbury is also UK production, and the general quality of their products has lowered since the takeover by Kraft, so there are no guarantees.


Kraft owns Heinz UK as well.

https://magnet.me/en-GB/company/the-kraft-heinz-company-uk/story

*About The Kraft Heinz Company UK*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Kraft owns Heinz UK as well.


Didn't know that!


----------



## KittenKong

https://nation.cymru/opinion/martial-law-troops-on-streets-brexit-no-deal/


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 393635


I've been having a good laugh at what you post, but I can no longer look at the crap

My ignore list is looking a little too long


----------



## cheekyscrip

My cat passport will not be valid soon ...the vet that treats him after vet here nearly killed him is in Spain.

The threat is real.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 393703
> My cat passport will not be valid soon ...the vet that treats him after vet here nearly killed him is in Spain.
> 
> The threat is real.


Cheeky - Both my dogs and cat have valid Hungarian EU Pet Passports which unless the UK government changes its mind means I can take them anywhere in the EU and also bring them to the UK if I want to without any problem.

Why don't you ask your Spanish vet to issue your cat a Spanish EU pet passport and then, as far as I can understand, you should have no problems crossing the border, providing it's up to date?

It's the four legged equivalent of having dual nationality!

https://www.thelocal.no/20181106/pet-travel-after-brexit-brits-in-eu-urged-to-visit-vets

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity...passports-dual-nationality-brexit-mr-loophole

*Celeb lawyer Nick Freeman gets his DOG two passports to dodge Brexit*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I was in a shop the other day and a group of people were talking about Brexit and two women said they voted leave because the EU wanted to get ride of the Royal Family, I wonder how many other people voted leave for other insane reasons.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I was in a shop the other day and a group of people were talking about Brexit and two women said they voted leave because the EU wanted to get ride of the Royal Family, I wonder how many other people voted leave for other insane reasons.


Reminds me of when the Olympic Games were held in Barcelona. I was having a coffee in a bar in Fuengirola and overheard part of a conversation two elderly American women were having.

One woman asked her friend why it was no black person ever competed in the swimming events. To be told by her friend because black people's skin is porous they'd sink to the bottom of the swimming pool!

I nearly choked over my coffee!


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I was in a shop the other day and a group of people were talking about Brexit and two women said they voted leave because the EU wanted to get ride of the Royal Family, I wonder how many other people voted leave for other insane reasons.


That's a new one!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> That's a new one!


Maybe, but I think a lot of people voted leave for some stupid reasons.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> I was in a shop the other day and a group of people were talking about Brexit and two women said they voted leave because the EU wanted to get ride of the Royal Family, I wonder how many other people voted leave for other insane reasons.


Another reason why referendums are really bad ideas. (I'll make a single exception for the one that should be called to decide this once and for all.)


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> Another reason why referendums are really bad ideas. (I'll make a single exception for the one that should be called to decide this once and for all.)


I agree, referendums are a waste of time, ordinary people never really know everything they are voting for, plus we never get all the facts and wouldn't understand all of it anyway.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Maybe, but I think a lot of people voted leave for some stupid reasons.


Then again many didn't........

Many remainers voted the way they did for their holibobs and some through fear, but of course, none of them for stupid reasons


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Reminds me of when the Olympic Games were held in Barcelona. I was having a coffee in a bar in Fuengirola and overheard part of a conversation two elderly American women were having.
> 
> One woman asked her friend why it was no black person ever competed in the swimming events. To be told by her friend because black people's skin is porous they'd sink to the bottom of the swimming pool!
> 
> I nearly choked over my coffee!


I thought of it, but will need an address in Spain plus he cannot be vac now...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Then again many didn't........
> 
> *Many remainers voted the way they did for their holibobs* and some through fear, but of course, none of them for stupid reasons


Now that's a good one, and as for fear I think it's leaves who frightened of their own shadows. At least we knew where we were and could do something about it, now with may's debacle, we have no idea what the hell is going on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Now that's a good one, and as for fear I think it's leaves who frightened of their own shadows. At least we knew where we were and could do something about it, now with may's debacle, we have no idea what the hell is going on.


Fear and survival instinct are good things.
You don't jump headlong into anything if you not sure how you will land and definitely do not take anyone along, least the whole nation.

Remember May saying something that her faith gives her believe in Brexit.

Well, she is not Moses, she will not part the Red Sea or English Channel to lead the nation into Promised Land of Hope and Glory with heavenly manna falling from Heaven to feed us in WTO rules.

I think certain Leavers stopped posting not because anything nasty was said but simply their position "Brexit hasn't happened yet, there is nothing wrong, all Project Fear" is untenable.

With every day passing it is more obvious that Britain will suffer with No Deal and May Deal is fairly bad too.

Best option was really trying to reshape EU and Remain to do so instead of quitting and leaving EU to be run by Germany with France.


----------



## KittenKong

With their promotion that Brexit will be Great for Britain, one would've thought people like this gentleman and Mr Dyson of course, would practice what they preached by staying in their "Country" and to contribute to its future.

But Brexit was never about, "Believing In Britain", as the press preached to their readers in 2016 was it, except in fantasy terms.

Think I would be feeling conned personally speaking had I put an X in the Leave box...

https://inews.co.uk/news/britains-r...EHMAN30bitS6C_bw3rRlDh3bX2aqUhDy9sPQ7prVgUifs


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting article in The Local - 14th February 2019

https://www.thelocal.no/20190214/co...u-can-expect-in-the-event-of-a-no-deal-brexit

*No-deal Brexit: Country by country guide to how the rights of Britons will be affected*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Interesting article in The Local - 14th February 2019
> 
> https://www.thelocal.no/20190214/co...u-can-expect-in-the-event-of-a-no-deal-brexit
> 
> *No-deal Brexit: Country by country guide to how the rights of Britons will be affected*


Copied this for KK. Save him a bit of time.

*SPAIN*

Spain has made efforts to reassure Brits living in Spain that they are working on agreements to ensure their continued rights to live and work in the country in case of a no-deal Brexit.

In January Pedro Sanchez's government announced that it is planning contingency measures to guarantee healthcare provisions to UK nationals living in Spain starting on the date of the UK's withdrawal from the EU if there is no agreement.

Sanchez emphasized that any such agreement would have to be on a reciprocal basis to also guarantee healthcare for Spanish residents in the UK.

Spain's government has also launched a special Brexit information page on their website where they update on the latest regulations concerning Brits in Spain and Spaniards residing in the UK.

In one piece of good news, Spain and the UK signed a reciprocal agreement to guarantee voting rights after the March 29th Brexit deadline.

This will mean British residents in Spain can continue to vote in municipal elections and stand as candidates for their local council even after Brexit. But they will have no vote in regional or national elections.

The government has also said it will hire an extra 1,735 new public workers to deal with the fallout from Brexit.

Spain hosts more British citizens than any other EU state. The official numbers say there are just over 300,000 British citizens resident in Spain - some estimates suggest the actual number is closer to one million.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Then again many didn't........
> 
> Many remainers voted the way they did for their holibobs and some through fear, but of course, none of them for stupid reasons


Lets face it, those who did remain for stupid reasons have clearly been vindicated now its transparently clear brexit is already a disaster and thats before we've left.

Project FACT is far far worse than project fear. Or did leavers like yourself knowingly vote for food & medicine shortages? For marshal law? For the complete destruction of our NHS? The loss of millions of jobs? Climate inaction? The tearing up of legislation which protects our us, livestock & our environment? Actually its clear some people did vote for the last one - they dont like the EU interfering in our laws:Facepalm

Soon you will no longer be able to deny the disastrous reality, but I'm sure you will have the guts to own your decision is the result of the demise of our country & not try to shift the blame onto the EU for 'punishing us', or blame remoaners or Corbyn. Well see though

Brexit was always a right wing power grab. Corporate America is rubbing its greedy hands.

*James O'Brien brilliantly tear apart "Brexiters" plan one-by-one*


----------



## rona

Project fear is still alive and well and being headed by Rupert Murdoch and his super rich buddies, not just about Brexit either


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Can't read through them today, a bit busy :Shamefullyembarrased
> 
> Is there anything in there that states they will go to the higher standard and not just standardize?
> 
> *Could we all not be eating lower standard food because the EU wants us all eating the same*?


Remember TTIP Rona? its going to be a race to the bottom for us now. Cling to your conspiracy theories if it helps though



Magyarmum said:


> But as Heinz products are manufacture in the UK there is no reason to alter their standards.
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/our-company/about-heinz/heinz-uk-and-ireland
> 
> *Heinz UK and Ireland*
> 
> https://www.heinz.co.uk/products/tomato_ketchup/products/heinz-tomato-ketchup





KittenKong said:


> Fair do's. Let's hope they continue to manufacture in the UK and not import from the US in future!


I won't matter where they're manufactured KK, we will be forced to harmonise our high standards to their low standards. This is why lunatics like Mogg are so desperate to get us out of the SM/CU.

*Scientists for EU*‏ @Scientists4EU Feb 14
_*"Lobbyists for the American meat industry have urged the US government to demand Britain drop antibiotics restrictions and the ban on ractopamine-fed pork as part of any post-Brexit trade deal."*_
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...brexit-trade-deal_uk_5c62fc53e4b0a8731aeaa525

Minette Batters(NFU President) paints a bleak outlook for farming if we crash out with a #NoDealBrexit... "*we would be subsumed by cheap imports*"... 
"I think it's not understood what #NoDeal means"


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092000314289467392


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Project fear is still alive and well and being headed by Rupert Murdoch and his super rich buddies, not just about Brexit either


Murdoch supports brexit lol

As do all these









(haven't fact checked them all)


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I've been having a good laugh at what you post, but I can no longer look at the crap
> 
> My ignore list is looking a little too long





rona said:


> Project fear is still alive and well and being headed by Rupert Murdoch and his super rich buddies, not just about Brexit either


Aren't I supposed to be on your ignore list?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I won't matter where they're manufactured KK, we will be forced to harmonise our high standards to their low standards


Why? Surely it'll be less costly to keep manufacturing methods the same. It is not just an ingredients list you are changing here its a whole method of manufacturing, meaning different machinery etc.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why? Surely it'll be less costly to keep manufacturing methods the same. It is not just an ingredients list you are changing here its a whole method of manufacturing, meaning different machinery etc.


They could adopt the US ingredient method with the stricter EU regulation no longer applying to the UK if it proves cheaper to manufacture.

And US imported versions could possibly become available in the UK.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> They could adopt the US ingredient method with the stricter EU regulation no longer applying to the UK if it proves cheaper to manufacture.
> 
> And US imported versions could possibly become available in the UK.


Lots of 'Could' doesn't mean it 'will' happen but yes they could do that


----------



## AlexPed2393

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902
*Seven MPs leave Labour Party*

Labour have gone and blown up


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Project fear is still alive and well and being headed by Rupert Murdoch and his super rich buddies, not just about Brexit either


Do you think it's safe to come up for air yet, or should I leave it a little longer until she who thinks she knows everything about everyone and anything has gone?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> Do you think it's safe to come up for air yet, or should I leave it a little longer until she who thinks she knows everything about everyone and anything has gone?


Get yer snorkel out, might be needed


----------



## ukcatdaddy

AlexPed2393 said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902
> *Seven MPs leave Labour Party*
> 
> Labour have gone and blown up


Well that is a big turn of the tide of things. This weakens labour.


----------



## Satori

AlexPed2393 said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902
> *Seven MPs leave Labour Party*
> 
> Labour have gone and blown up


Excellent news indeed! At the next general election the socialist vote in their constituencies will be split between the defectors and the official Labour Party candidates. Seven seats handed to the Conservative party


----------



## ukcatdaddy

With regard to Brexit this isn't the time for MP's to be splitting from the political party they are in. So these 7 MP's resigning from Labour does this mean there will be 7 by elections as these MP's have left labour to form a group of Independent MP's sitting in Parliament (not forming another party)?

I hope they know this will strengthen the Conservatives who may stay in power for a long time and strengthen any vote in Parliament for Brexit to happen?


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Murdoch supports brexit lol


I'm quite aware of what he says............

I do have you on ignore, but sometimes someone else replies to you and I think you may have said something worthwhile. I'm always disappointed


----------



## ukcatdaddy

noushka05 said:


> Hope you wont leave on my account?. Everyone is entitled to post on this thread.


I won't leave on your account.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Can't wait to see what KK and Noush's opinions are on the whole labour thing. :Wideyed


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Calvine said:


> If there is someone in particular who is really irritating you, use the ''ignore'' function. It means you have to guess what the ignored person has said, which of course keeps you on your toes, but it beats reading page after page of schyte. The only people I have on ''ignore'' are from this thread so I can see your point.


How do you put people on ignore for future reference?

Thanks for any help given.


----------



## AlexPed2393

ukcatdaddy said:


> How do you put people on ignore for future reference?
> 
> Thanks for any help given.


Click on their name and a mini pop-up arrives, there is an ignore option within this pop-up


----------



## kimthecat

ukcatdaddy said:


> Well that is a big turn of the tide of things. This weakens labour.


 I was shocked to see it on the news. My opinion is "Good for them" ! 
Labour was weakened when Corbyn was elected as leader. The support he won at the last election is draining away.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ukcatdaddy said:


> How do you put people on ignore for future reference?
> 
> Thanks for any help given.


Be aware that you only don`t see ignored members when actually logged on! seems obvious but I think that is why so many people keep replying to those they claim to have on ignore, they read the forum not logged in so read the posts and feel the urge to respond. Also be aware you still see quoted ignored post and if you have to many people on ignore and they contribute to a thread a lot it makes the thread confusing and some days not worth following!


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> With regard to Brexit this isn't the time for MP's to be splitting from the political party they are in. So these 7 MP's resigning from Labour does this mean there will be 7 by elections as these MP's have left labour to form a group of Independent MP's sitting in Parliament (not forming another party)?
> 
> I hope they know this will strengthen the Conservatives who may stay in power for a long time and strengthen any vote in Parliament for Brexit to happen?


Sadly, I think you are right.

I don't support Corbyn purely due to his pro Brexit stance and his refusal to back a PV, but this has happened at the worst possible time.

Which could result in the Tories uniting behind TM, even if only briefly, then back her Brexit deal, as it's always party first. 

However, as far as I'm aware, MPs can still sit if becoming an independent or by defecting to another party until the next GE. Eg: Kate Hoey could remain if she defected to UKIP for example.

Think that happened with Douglas Carswell when defected to UKIP from the Tories before the 2015 GE, but he had to stand as a UKIP candidate at that election.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Lots of 'Could' doesn't mean it 'will' happen but yes they could do that


You might like to read these .....

https://www.bsigroup.com/LocalFiles/en-GB/EUREF.pdf

*What would be the impact of a UK exit from the EU on the UK's participation and influence in the European standards system?*

http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexalimentarius/en/

*Protecting health, facilitating trade*


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Which could result in the Tories uniting behind TM, even if only briefly, then back her Brexit deal.


Not sure about the Tories uniting, the divides in that party seem to far apart. Of course while in power the `rebels` are not going to resign and form their own party (or join UKIP maybe) but I can`t see them uniting behind May!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

I hear Farage has setup the Brexit Party which has been approved by the Electoral Commission and already has 100,000 people who have registered interest in supporting and becoming members of the party. His new party has the potential to win elections and having MP's in Parliament.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

AlexPed2393 said:


> Click on their name and a mini pop-up arrives, there is an ignore option within this pop-up


Thank you.


----------



## Jesthar

ukcatdaddy said:


> I hear Farage has setup the Brexit Party which has been approved by the Electoral Commission and already has 100,000 people who have registered interest in supporting and becoming members of the party. His new party has the potential to win elections and having MP's in Parliament.


And also the potential to get beaten by someone dressed in a dolphin suit...


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> They could adopt the US ingredient method with the stricter EU regulation no longer applying to the UK if it proves cheaper to manufacture.
> 
> And US imported versions could possibly become available in the UK.


The UK already trades with the US and so does the rest of Europe. The UK and US I hear signed a continuity agreement last week which is good news as it means trade will continue with the US regardless of how the UK leaves the EU as the trading will be on the same terms as at the EU has with the US so I doubt very much standards will slip from what they are at the moment.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47278902

*Seven MPs have resigned from the Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and anti-Semitism.

They are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey.
*
https://www.theweek.co.uk/99650/can-the-brexit-party-succeed

*Can the Brexit Party succeed?*

*Nigel Farage says 100,000 people have signed up to newly created party*


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> The UK already trades with the US and so does the rest of Europe. The UK and US I hear signed a continuity agreement last week which is good news as it means trade will continue with the US regardless of how the UK leaves the EU as the trading will be on the same terms as at the EU has with the US so I doubt very much standards will slip from what they are at the moment.


Yes, but what you don't get though is, currently, food from the US entering the UK market has to meet the stricter standards of the EU.

Just as items from China must meet CE safety standards.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Yes, but what you don't get though is, currently, food from the US entering the UK market has to meet the stricter standards of the EU.
> 
> Just as items from China must meet CE safety standards.


Whose to say that we cannot carry the same standards over? Yes we won't be following the EU's rule book but that doesn't mean a drop in standards or safety


----------



## ukcatdaddy

noushka05 said:


> Oops Looks like the tories have blown another trade deal lol Ahh well at least we've got one with the Faroe Islands:Hilarious
> 
> *Tom Newton Dunn*‏Verified account @tnewtondunn
> _China's Deputy PM cancels trade talks with Philip Hammond in protest at Gavin Williamson's pledge to send @HMSQNLZ to the Pacific, reveals @kateferguson4 today_


You will find that China and Japan want to negotiate better terms with the UK than they have with the EU but want the UK to lower it's approach to human rights or abolish human rights and the UK have said no they won't do that.

I wouldn't say it is a blown trade deal with China it is more like the UK won't lower to China's take on human rights. I maybe wrong and feel free to argue this point I have made.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> Yes, but what you don't get though is, currently, food from the US entering the UK market has to meet the stricter standards of the EU.
> 
> Just as items from China must meet CE safety standards.


A Continuity Agreement means everything currently agreed in the current agreement remains the same, standards, quality etc. You will find that all the same standards will reamain the same as if we remained in the EU but the UK won't be in the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> A Continuity Agreement means everything currently agreed in the current agreement remains the same, standards, quality etc. You will find that all the same standards will reamain the same as if we remained in the EU but the UK won't be in the EU.


Somehow I doubt that.

A post Brexit UK might have to lower their standards to meet the US for a trade deal, especially if the ingredients result in a cheaper product. Haven't you listened to Jacob Rees-Mogg?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> Somehow I doubt that.
> 
> A post Brexit UK might have to lower their standards to meet the US for a trade deal, especially if the ingredients result in a cheaper product. Haven't you listened to Jacob Rees-Mogg?


A Continuity Agreement has been signed with the US and the UK. I suggest you read what a Continuity Agreement is. 

You will find the UK will be signing alot of Continuity Agreements so that trade is not disrupted after Brexit happens.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> I hear Farage has setup the Brexit Party which has been approved by the Electoral Commission and already has 100,000 people who have registered interest in supporting and becoming members of the party. His new party has the potential to win elections and having MP's in Parliament.


They would only field candidates in the next GE if the UK was still in the EU, and even then, FPTP would be very much against them. They might get seats in the European elections, should the UK be involved.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Whose to say that we cannot carry the same standards over? Yes we won't be following the EU's rule book but that doesn't mean a drop in standards or safety


Mr Trump has already been quite vocal, I believe, in that in order to secure an independent trade deal with the US, the UK would have to agree to remove 'unjustified' (translation: unprofitable for US companies) food hygiene standards and environmental protection from the statue book.

We'll have to continue to follow the EU standards (or higher) in order to continue to trade with the EU, so the whole thing could get quite complicated...


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> A Continuity Agreement has been signed with the US and the UK. I suggest you read what a Continuity Agreement is.
> 
> You will find the UK will be signing alot of Continuity Agreements so that trade is not disrupted after Brexit happens.


The UK government website has this ...

*UK and USA agree to continue Mutual Recognition Agreement*

But is this the same as a Trade Continuity Agreement? Because I can't find any mention of the UK signing that with the US.

The website does report the one with Switzerland ...

*UK and Switzerland sign trade continuity agreement*

Are you sure they are the same thing?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Jesthar said:


> We'll have to continue to follow the EU standards (or higher) in order to continue to trade with the EU, so the whole thing could get quite complicated...


How so?
The Continuity Agreement means the UK carries on trading with places like US, Switzerland etc as if the UK was a member of the EU but isn't. Standards and Quality will remain the same as they are now so trade continues as it is now regardless if the UK gets a deal with the EU or not. I do believe from what I have been told these types of deals have also been signed with New Zealand and Australia to.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> The UK government website has this ...
> 
> *UK and USA agree to continue Mutual Recognition Agreement*
> 
> But is this the same as a Trade Continuity Agreement? Because I can't find any mention of the UK signing that with the US.
> 
> The website does report the one with Switzerland ...
> 
> *UK and Switzerland sign trade continuity agreement*
> 
> Are you sure they are the same thing?


Instead of confronting me trying to cause a disagreement research yourself and then come back and prove me wrong.


----------



## Magyarmum

@Jesthar.

Well at least you didn't have the Two Tailed Dog Party like we had in the Hungarian elections last year.

I think I'd prefer Nigel to the Chicken Man





[/QUOTE]


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Instead of confronting me trying to cause a disagreement research yourself and then come back and prove me wrong.


Confronting? It was a perfectly simple question, SWC.

A trade continuity agreement is different from a mutual recognition agreement.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Confronting? It was a perfectly simple question, SWC.


What is SWC?


> A trade continuity agreement is different from a mutual recognition agreement.


Fair enough.


----------



## Jesthar

ukcatdaddy said:


> How so?
> The Continuity Agreement means the UK carries on trading with places like US, Switzerland etc as if the UK was a member of the EU but isn't. Standards and Quality will remain the same as they are now so trade continues as it is now regardless if the UK gets a deal with the EU or not. I do believe from what I have been told these types of deals have also been signed with New Zealand and Australia to.


The Agreement has nothing to do with that part - products will have to meet EU standards if you want to sell them to the EU. That's all.

It could potentially mean that, if the US get their concessions, some UK made products may not longer be saleable in the EU if they begin to use US ingredients of a quality that the EU don't permit.


----------



## Elles

@ukcatdaddy you're being accused of being Stockwellcat again. SWC = Stockwellcat


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Elles said:


> @ukcatdaddy you're being accused of being Stockwellcat again. SWC = Stockwellcat


I don't know who this is.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Yay, now it's our turn to call people traitors, confirms Labour*
18th February 2019









*A SPLIT in the Labour party today means both of Britain's leading political parties will spend all their time constantly denouncing traitors. *

Following the departure of Chuka Umunna and six other moderates to form a tiny, pointless centrist party, Labour will cease opposing the Conservatives and focus all its efforts on the Judases from within its own ranks.

_Guardian_ columnist Owen Jones said: "Everyone knows the Tories are bad. The thrill of fighting them's long since worn off. These treasonous ****ers? Death's too good for them. They need parading in the streets of Liverpool with bells tolling their moderate shame.

"There's nothing healthier than a country where both major parties are entirely focused on the back-stabbing turncoats on their own side, and what better time than when facing a national crisis neither is willing to address?

"Traitors! Traitors! Ah, it feels so good to finally scream it. You know, I kind of get where the Brexiters are coming from now."

Party member Norman Steele said: "Ah, I remember when Corbyn was a traitor. Of course, because it was him we called him a 'rebel'."


----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.cityam.com/273393/uk-cle...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190218_CMU

*UK clearing houses approved to continue serving EU clients even in a no-deal Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 393898
> 
> :Hilarious


----------



## AlexPed2393

Japanese carmaker Honda set to announce closure of Swindon plant in 2022, putting 3,500 jobs at risk, sources say

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603

As said earlier in the thread, the steady decline is happening


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-orders-gibraltar-boats-leave-british-waters/

*Spanish warship orders Gibraltar boats to leave British waters*

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-e...eu-poll-far-right-surges-survey-idUKKCN1Q70QZ

*Centre-right to top EU poll; far-right surges - survey*


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why? Surely it'll be less costly to keep manufacturing methods the same. It is not just an ingredients list you are changing here its a whole method of manufacturing, meaning different machinery etc.


Its only because of EU legislation that we have such high food standards (etc) Alex. When the brextremists spoke of ripping up all that red tape & getting rid of regulations, what did you think they meant?












rona said:


> I'm quite aware of what he says............
> 
> I do have you on ignore, but sometimes someone else replies to you and I think you may have said something worthwhile. I'm always disappointed


If you say so.












ukcatdaddy said:


> I won't leave on your account.


What an odd thing to say.



ukcatdaddy said:


> The UK already trades with the US and so does the rest of Europe. The UK and US I hear signed a continuity agreement last week which is good news as it means trade will continue with the US regardless of how the UK leaves the EU as the trading will be on the same terms as at the EU has with the US so I doubt very much standards will slip from what they are at the moment.


Yes we do trade with the US - via the EU. And only US foods etc which comply with EUs high standards are allowed in.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Whose to say that we cannot carry the same standards over? Yes we won't be following the EU's rule book but that doesn't mean a drop in standards or safety


We are in poor bargaining position, desperate for trade deals. Have you heard of TTIP Alex? George Monbiot was. if I recall, the first journalist to break this story in the msm. And this is whats in store for us now. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-trade-deal-full-frontal-assault-on-democracy



ukcatdaddy said:


> You will find that China and Japan want to negotiate better terms with the UK than they have with the EU but want the UK to lower it's approach to human rights or abolish human rights and the UK have said no they won't do that.
> 
> I wouldn't say it is a blown trade deal with China it is more like the UK won't lower to China's take on human rights. I maybe wrong and feel free to argue this point I have made.


*Henry Mance*‏Verified account @henrymance 16h16 hours ago
*Congratulations to the UK government, which managed to sour relations with China and Japan in the same week *

https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5



ukcatdaddy said:


> A Continuity Agreement means everything currently agreed in the current agreement remains the same, standards, quality etc. You will find that all the same standards will reamain the same as if we remained in the EU but the UK won't be in the EU.





ukcatdaddy said:


> A Continuity Agreement has been signed with the US and the UK. I suggest you read what a Continuity Agreement is.
> 
> You will find the UK will be signing alot of Continuity Agreements so that trade is not disrupted after Brexit happens.


This covers just a few areas where the EU already has MRAs in place.

Read this & weep.
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/mrcbg/files/USUK FTA 822 MS_update.pdf

Nikhil Datta, Center for Economic Policy, London School of Economics: "_The EU and US economy are the same size, they are both about 20 trillion dollars, but the UK is 2-3 trillion. This puts the UK in a terrible bargaining position."_

Professor Dennis Novy, University of Warwick: "Th_e US would likely make the UK a 'take it or leave it' offer. A deal would probably be negotiated and the UK probably can get their way in some respects, but overwhelmingly it will be a deal that the US wants, not the deal the UK want

_







[/QUOTE]


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Its only because of EU legislation that we have such high food standards (etc) Alex. When the brextremists spoke of ripping up all that red tape & getting rid of regulations, what did you think they meant?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you say so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an odd thing to say.
> 
> Yes we do trade with the US - via the EU. And only US foods etc which comply with EUs high standards are allowed in.
> 
> We are in poor bargaining position, desperate for trade deals. Have you heard of TTIP Alex? George Monbiot was. if I recall, the first journalist to break this story in the msm. And this is whats in store for us now. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-trade-deal-full-frontal-assault-on-democracy
> 
> *Henry Mance*‏Verified account @henrymance 16h16 hours ago
> *Congratulations to the UK government, which managed to sour relations with China and Japan in the same week *
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5
> 
> This covers just a few areas where the EU already has MRAs in place.
> 
> Read this & weep.
> https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/mrcbg/files/USUK FTA 822 MS_update.pdf
> 
> Nikhil Datta, Center for Economic Policy, London School of Economics: "_The EU and US economy are the same size, they are both about 20 trillion dollars, but the UK is 2-3 trillion. This puts the UK in a terrible bargaining position."_
> 
> Professor Dennis Novy, University of Warwick: "Th_e US would likely make the UK a 'take it or leave it' offer. A deal would probably be negotiated and the UK probably can get their way in some respects, but overwhelmingly it will be a deal that the US wants, not the deal the UK want
> 
> _


[/QUOTE]

Quite patronising Noush, plus you don't really answer my point, you just go on about something else that is faintly related with a big image and a clickbait headline.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> I don't know who this is.


That's the spirit!


----------



## noushka05

Quite patronising Noush[/QUOTE]

I really wasn't meaning to be. Sorry.

This is where we're heading now though Alex.


----------



## noushka05

ukcatdaddy said:


> I don't know who this is.


:Smuggrin


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> @ukcatdaddy you're being accused of being Stockwellcat again. SWC = Stockwellcat


 I hope SWC is ok . Ive still not heard from him . I dont blame him for taking a break , he was very upset but Im a little bit worried.


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> Japanese carmaker Honda set to announce closure of Swindon plant in 2022, putting 3,500 jobs at risk, sources say
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603
> 
> As said earlier in the thread, the steady decline is happening


Remainers are hysterical with glee on Twitter ! Of course its brexits fault and nothing to do with three years uncertainty and useless MPs making the UK look idiots.


----------



## Elles

“Honda are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit, as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021."


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I hope SWC is ok . Ive still not heard from him . I dont blame him for taking a break , he was very upset but Im a little bit worried.


I'm pretty sure he's okay.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...alia-trade-deal-uk-brexit-no-deal-theresa-may

*Brexit Britain VICTORY as Australia pledge to FAST-TRACK UK trade deal in event of no-deal*

I don't usually post articles from the Express but I don't have a subscription to the FT!


----------



## KittenKong

Now there's new one:
















I wonder if Brexit supporting Len McClusky encouraged his members to vote leave?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...alia-trade-deal-uk-brexit-no-deal-theresa-may
> 
> *Brexit Britain VICTORY as Australia pledge to FAST-TRACK UK trade deal in event of no-deal*
> 
> I don't usually post articles from the Express but I don't have a subscription to the FT!


Good news for Express readers. But if we leave the EU with No Deal I would hope that the first trade deal we negotiate is with the EU!

Figures for 2015:

Total trade between UK and Australia = £5,882,579,564

Total trade between UK and EU = £353,981,863,263

Every little helps, but for the Express to claim it as a victory is not going to make up for a rather large failure elsewhere!


----------



## KittenKong

(posted by an American comparing US and EU/UK food standards)

"Did you know Quaker Oats Strawberries & Cream has ZERO strawberries? In the U.S. Quaker mimics the look and taste of real strawberries by using "Flavored and Colored Fruit Pieces" comprised of dehydrated apples, artificial strawberry flavor, citric acid, and the artificial dye Red 40. It's a total scam!

Meanwhile in the U.K. Quaker doesn't even attempt to sell that garbage. They instead have a product called "Oat So Simple" that has real strawberries in it-light years ahead of the U.S. version that's made with artificial dyes and artificial flavors.

We are continuously assured that our food is "safe". We're told that it's foolish to worry about what's really in our food because companies would never be allowed to use a dangerous additive in their foods. Or would they?

The truth is that nobody is watching out for us. When they tell you that they know their processed foods are safe, they are telling you a lie. I expose it all here: https://FeedingYouLies.com/ "

https://www.facebook.com/132535093447877/posts/2335090519858979/


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Now there's new one:
> 
> View attachment 393938
> View attachment 393939
> 
> I wonder if Brexit supporting Len McClusky encouraged his members to vote leave?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603


Already posted this one KK


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> (posted by an American comparing US and EU/UK food standards)
> 
> "Did you know Quaker Oats Strawberries & Cream has ZERO strawberries? In the U.S. Quaker mimics the look and taste of real strawberries by using "Flavored and Colored Fruit Pieces" comprised of dehydrated apples, artificial strawberry flavor, citric acid, and the artificial dye Red 40. It's a total scam!
> 
> Meanwhile in the U.K. Quaker doesn't even attempt to sell that garbage. They instead have a product called "Oat So Simple" that has real strawberries in it-light years ahead of the U.S. version that's made with artificial dyes and artificial flavors.
> 
> We are continuously assured that our food is "safe". We're told that it's foolish to worry about what's really in our food because companies would never be allowed to use a dangerous additive in their foods. Or would they?
> 
> The truth is that nobody is watching out for us. When they tell you that they know their processed foods are safe, they are telling you a lie. I expose it all here: https://FeedingYouLies.com/ "
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/132535093447877/posts/2335090519858979/
> 
> View attachment 393941


Also did we not go voer this with the whole Heinz ketchup case. Bringing up a different example you will get similar replies


----------



## Arnie83

No Deal Brexit scaremongering, or possibly fishmongering ...

*Brexit: Food prices to rise up to 20% 'virtually instantaneously' after leaving EU, warns Birds Eye boss*
*Tariffs ranging from 2% to 20% will be passed on to consumers, says frozen food specialist*

Fans of fish fingers could see the prices of their favourite food shoot up "virtually instantaneously" should Britain crash out of the EU without a deal, the head of Birds Eye in the UK has warned.​
Putting a pessimistic hat on; given the state of the current negotiations after 2 years, there is no guarantee that the much more complicated trade agreement negotiations (following a successful Withdrawal Agreement) would not end up after the next 2 years in exactly the same No Deal situation that we're in now, and with the same warnings coming from so many businesses.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...alia-trade-deal-uk-brexit-no-deal-theresa-may
> 
> *Brexit Britain VICTORY as Australia pledge to FAST-TRACK UK trade deal in event of no-deal*
> 
> I don't usually post articles from the Express but I don't have a subscription to the FT!


Please read this >>>

*Dmitry Grozoubinski*‏ @DmitryOpines
1/ _Click-bait headlines are damaging the Brexit conversation. A rage thread.

I woke up this morning to the news Australia was planning to "fast-track" the UK FTA. This was news to me, as I'm not aware Australia has multiple "tracks" or that one of them is faster than others

2/ Australia assigns a team to every FTA. They work really hard to reach agreement within their red lines. If they do, there's a signing. If they don't, work continues. The US has a concept called "fast-track," but it's a legislative instrument to do with executive authority.

3/ So from which hell did this idea of a fast tracked AU-UK FTA spawn from? Turns out it comes from this run in a story by Jamie Smyth. It's a good story, but it doesn't suggest anything like what a normal person would read the headline to infer.








_

4/ These are the headlines the @FT and @IrishTimes ran this story under. How do you get this headline from 'Sure, I'll sign something if you guys can negotiate it with us quickly, but you get it's going to be hard right?'










_5/ "But Dmitry, you judgemental cheese stuffed wombat, it's just headlines! The article itself is good." Yeah it is, except this is what people see when it's shared on social media:
https://www.ft.com/content/ac8918d8-30e0-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

6/ What's the FTs click through rate? 2 per cent? 5 per cent? (The article is also paywalled). Also, here's how The Express re-reported this story (complete with a photo of our now deposed former PM):











7/ Australia hasn't pledged to do anything new here. Obviously. But that doesn't matter because we know how this goes.

An ERG Account will retweet these articles with some stirring words about Commonwealth solidarity and probably Dunkirk. It will be retweeted 5,000 times.


8/ Que #BBCQT:

"Sir, what makes you think sunlit uplands await?" 
"Why, the Financial Times, no fans of Leave (Etonian chortle), just reported the Australians have VOWED to FAST TRACK our FTA..."

- wild applause-

9/... And there it is.

Now it's established wisdom and the discourse around trade and Brexit gets just managed to discover a new depth of dumbness in which to dwell.

I hope the extra clicks were worth it. /end

......................................_


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Remainers are hysterical with glee on Twitter ! Of course its brexits fault and nothing to do with three years uncertainty and useless MPs making the UK look idiots.


It is brexits fault, we were warned this would happen, even brexiters (only?) go to economist. Patrick Minford said so.

*Mike Galsworthy*‏ @mikegalsworthy
_Brexit's lead economist Prof Patrick Minford on UK car industry: "You are going to have to run it down ... in the same way we ran down the coal industry and steel industry. These things happen."

This is the neoliberal Brexit plan. 1/n_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1056490686638383104
_
Note here the clear admission that it was the UK government that ran down UK steel industry. If anyone tells you it was the EU's fault... show them this video. ... and then show them the UK decline relative to other nations - including European nations:_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production

The _EU has indeed been "protectionist" on our own food production (think protected status of unique produce), steel and manufacturing... Whilst also serving as a robust platform for global free trade... with more deals than has the US, China, Switzerland, Canada, Australia_
_









ut this is not the vision of the Minford Brexiters... Who would happily run down industries associated with our basic security (food, manufacturing) - and make us a consumer nation that trades on high-tech and services (industries that are, incidentally, pro- Single Market)

o Brexit's guru Minford would shaft the industries that voted for Brexit... ... and put his faith for Brexit Britain in the industries that are most strongly opposed to Brexit.

And that, in a nutshell, is Brexit for you.

.............................._


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tell people in motor industry about Project Fear.

Labour Party again challenging Corbyn.
If not his lack of support of Remain and then forcing Labour to vote for Article 50 we would not have been in this mess.
I will never forgive him for the facto supporting ERG .
For party politics?
I have no doubt who ERG represents, but Labour was meant to represent the common people.

If Unions, the mainstay of Corbyn supported Brexit then they are more shortsighted than moles...

You had all the means to control immigration and ask former Home Secretary Mrs May why they were not implemented?

I blame both leading parties for that disaster.
Corbyn did not want to support Cameron,
Cameron wanted to appease ERG...

All wanted to win elections no matter what happens after that.

Absolute disgrace.


----------



## Elles

Yet Birds-eye advertise their food as British. Are we putting tariffs on food grown here, or fished from our waters and sold in Britain?


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Please read this >>>
> 
> *Dmitry Grozoubinski*‏ @DmitryOpines
> 1/ _Click-bait headlines are damaging the Brexit conversation. A rage thread.
> 
> I woke up this morning to the news Australia was planning to "fast-track" the UK FTA. This was news to me, as I'm not aware Australia has multiple "tracks" or that one of them is faster than others
> 
> 2/ Australia assigns a team to every FTA. They work really hard to reach agreement within their red lines. If they do, there's a signing. If they don't, work continues. The US has a concept called "fast-track," but it's a legislative instrument to do with executive authority.
> 
> 3/ So from which hell did this idea of a fast tracked AU-UK FTA spawn from? Turns out it comes from this run in a story by Jamie Smyth. It's a good story, but it doesn't suggest anything like what a normal person would read the headline to infer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 4/ These are the headlines the @FT and @IrishTimes ran this story under. How do you get this headline from 'Sure, I'll sign something if you guys can negotiate it with us quickly, but you get it's going to be hard right?'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _5/ "But Dmitry, you judgemental cheese stuffed wombat, it's just headlines! The article itself is good." Yeah it is, except this is what people see when it's shared on social media:
> https://www.ft.com/content/ac8918d8-30e0-11e9-8744-e7016697f225
> 
> 6/ What's the FTs click through rate? 2 per cent? 5 per cent? (The article is also paywalled). Also, here's how The Express re-reported this story (complete with a photo of our now deposed former PM):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7/ Australia hasn't pledged to do anything new here. Obviously. But that doesn't matter because we know how this goes.
> 
> An ERG Account will retweet these articles with some stirring words about Commonwealth solidarity and probably Dunkirk. It will be retweeted 5,000 times.
> 
> 
> 8/ Que #BBCQT:
> 
> "Sir, what makes you think sunlit uplands await?"
> "Why, the Financial Times, no fans of Leave (Etonian chortle), just reported the Australians have VOWED to FAST TRACK our FTA..."
> 
> - wild applause-
> 
> 9/... And there it is.
> 
> Now it's established wisdom and the discourse around trade and Brexit gets just managed to discover a new depth of dumbness in which to dwell.
> 
> I hope the extra clicks were worth it. /end
> 
> ......................................_


Article from the Australian Financial Review

https://www.afr.com/news/economy/tr...ds-exports-flowing-postbrexit-20190118-h1a7ff

*Australia inks trade deals with Britain to keep goods exports flowing post-Brexit*

https://www.theshout.com.au/news/australia-signs-wine-brexit-deal-with-uk/

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceani...nition-agreement-with-uk-20190122-p50sso.html

*New Zealand signs post-Brexit recognition agreement with UK*


https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/command-papers-by-country-2013

*[CS Australia No.1/2019] UK/Australia: Agreement on Trade in Wine*


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> No Deal Brexit scaremongering, or possibly fishmongering ...
> 
> *Brexit: Food prices to rise up to 20% 'virtually instantaneously' after leaving EU, warns Birds Eye boss*
> *Tariffs ranging from 2% to 20% will be passed on to consumers, says frozen food specialist*
> 
> Fans of fish fingers could see the prices of their favourite food shoot up "virtually instantaneously" should Britain crash out of the EU without a deal, the head of Birds Eye in the UK has warned.​
> Putting a pessimistic hat on; given the state of the current negotiations after 2 years, there is no guarantee that the much more complicated trade agreement negotiations (following a successful Withdrawal Agreement) would not end up after the next 2 years in exactly the same No Deal situation that we're in now, and with the same warnings coming from so many businesses.


Should help with our obesity crisis then. See, Brexit _*does *_help the NHS.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Snoringbear

More bad car news 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Yet Birds-eye advertise their food as British. Are we putting tariffs on food grown here, or fished from our waters and sold in Britain?


If the associated costs of producing that food rise (fuel, non-UK sourced ingredients, packaging etc.), then the cost of the food will rise. Tarrifs would only be a minor element in all that.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> More bad car news
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616


If you can afford to buy a Porsche in the first place then I don't think a few extra thousand will make much difference


----------



## Magyarmum

Satori said:


> Should help with our obesity crisis then. See, Brexit _*does *_help the NHS.


And of course my suspicious mind thinks Brexit could also be a good excuse for increasing the price of their products.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> If you can afford to buy a Porsche in the first place then I don't think a few extra thousand will make much difference


Ask @Snoringbear, he should know as a brand new Porsche owner!


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> If you can afford to buy a Porsche in the first place then I don't think a few extra thousand will make much difference


Some people who can afford to buy a Porsche care about people less well off than themselves. Its called having social values. 


Magyarmum said:


> And of course my suspicious mind thinks Brexit could also be a good excuse for increasing the price of their products.


No it couldn't possibly be due to tariffs:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

As I said on the climate change thread, its no coincidence that brextremists tend to be climate change deniers too. They are conspiracy theorists, in complete denial of reality..

I've just found this by thread by Steve Bullock dated August last year >>

_*Brexit is the new climate change denial*_

_Brexiters believe there's an ideologically-driven conspiracy that means that economists, trade & EU experts, lawyers, industry assocs, unions, companies, judges, HMT, the Bank of England, Scotland, the Irish, diplomats, EU27 & UKGov itself are all lying about its consequences 1_

_Sure, one, or even several of those groups may be mistaken, or they may be playing politics (I'm looking at you UKGov), but really, all of them? 2/

As with climate change deniers, the think that it is more plausible that the vast majority of experts in their fields, who rely on their reputations and credibility for their careers, are all conspiring to lie, than it is that they may have a point. 3/

It's more plausible that companies and industry associations would simply lie about the dangers they face out of ideological loyalty to the EU, rather than as a result of in-depth studies, analysis and advise as to Brexit's consequences 4/

More plausible that the Dutch, German and Belgian governments are hiring thousands of customs staff and other EU countries are spending millions on preparations as part of project fear than because they've analysed the possible outcomes and decided they'll be needed. 5/

That hundreds of civil servants and Bank of England staff at every level have colluded to falsify their projections, without any paper trail or leaks, because they love the EU and will do anything to protect it. 6/

*It's now the norm for people to tell people who've spent years working in their fields that they're lying because a handful of crackpots in the ERG, a couple of RW newspaper editors, Patrick Minford, and a bloke down the Dog and Duck say they know better 7/*

Brexit is the new climate change denial. 8/8_

.............


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Should help with our obesity crisis then. See, Brexit _*does *_help the NHS.


I'm sure this is your black humour lol But there wont be an NHS to help & the people liking your post may one day find they or a loved one need the NHS & it will be gone.

_*No-deal Brexit will be 'catastrophe' for NHS and increase risk from deadly pandemics, BMA warns*

*Exclusive: Doctors have a duty to set out the harm of crashing out of the EU and this is not scaremongering, union says*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bma-final-say-voters-referendum-a8493221.html_


----------



## Happy Paws2

Honda to close it's factory in Swindon in 2021 another brexit casualty thousands to leave their jobs


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> Honda to close it's factory in Swindon in 2021 another brexit casualty thousands to leave their jobs


Nothing to do with Brexit, more to do with EU & UK dragging feet on electric cars and growing markets moving to Asia


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit, more to do with EU & UK dragging feet on electric cars and growing markets moving to Asia


(point proven)

*Channel 4 News*‏Verified account @Channel4News 13h13 hours ago
_"Forty-four days away from Brexit and they haven't got a clue."_

A Honda worker accuses the government of _"completely incompetent handling"_ of Brexit and_ "idiocy of epic proportions".

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1097579713382490112
_
*Alex Andreou*‏: Honda, Nissan, Ford, JLR, Schaeffler, Airbus, P&O, AXA, Bupa, Prudential, Barclays, Bank of America, UBS, Credit Suisse, Hitachi, Toshiba, Dyson, Panasonic, Sony, Philips - and that's just in the LAST MONTH. #Brexit

_
_


----------



## noushka05

*Peter Jukes*‏:

_Never Forget. Nigel Farage and his Hedge Fund friends. Ashcroft and his offshore money. Arron Banks and his Russian friends. 
They're all laughing heartily as industry after industry pulls out of Brexit Britain.

This is what they wanted.

......................................................................................................................................._


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Click on their name and a mini pop-up arrives, there is an ignore option within this pop-up


 That's right . . . or click on your own name (top right) and there's a list of options - ''people you follow'', ''people you ignore'' etc.


----------



## rona

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386

"Honda has confirmed it will close its Swindon car plant in 2021, with the loss of about 3,500 jobs.

The Japanese company builds 150,000 Honda Civics a year in Swindon, its only manufacturing facility in the EU.

Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.

Ian Howells, senior vice-president for Honda in Europe, told the BBC: "We're seeing unprecedented change in the industry on a global scale. We have to move very swiftly to electrification of our vehicles because of demand of our customers and legislation.

"This is not a Brexit-related issue for us, it's being made on the global-related changes I've spoken about.

"We've always seen Brexit as something we'll get through, but these changes globally are something we will have to respond to. We deeply regret the impact it will have on the Swindon community."


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit, more to do with EU & UK dragging feet on electric cars and growing markets moving to Asia


It is partly, because they can't guarantee to have the parts on time, with all the possible delays at the ports that could delay parts getting to the factory on time and stop production.


----------



## Calvine

ukcatdaddy said:


> I don't know who this is.


A long-established member who can no longer be arsed to post on this thread.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Some people who can afford to buy a Porsche care about people less well off than themselves. Its called having social values.
> 
> No it couldn't possibly be due to tariffs:Hilarious
> /


It never fails to amaze me how you always manage to twist things to suit your bigoted and highly patronising point of view!

@kimthecat never mentioned any thing about Porsche owners lacking social values so why bring it up?

And are Birds and similar organizations so guileless it's never occurred to them they could quite easily up their prices knowing the blame would be directly attributed to Brexit?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386
> 
> "Honda has confirmed it will close its Swindon car plant in 2021, with the loss of about 3,500 jobs.
> 
> The Japanese company builds 150,000 Honda Civics a year in Swindon, its only manufacturing facility in the EU.
> 
> Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> Ian Howells, senior vice-president for Honda in Europe, told the BBC: "We're seeing unprecedented change in the industry on a global scale. We have to move very swiftly to electrification of our vehicles because of demand of our customers and legislation.
> 
> "This is not a Brexit-related issue for us, it's being made on the global-related changes I've spoken about.
> 
> "We've always seen Brexit as something we'll get through, but these changes globally are something we will have to respond to. We deeply regret the impact it will have on the Swindon community."


Thank you for this, I was wrong, I believed brexit was 100 to blame. Please have a read at this though.

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston 1h1 hour ago
Robert Peston Retweeted Robin Harding

Important on the connection between Brexit and Honda's decision to close Swindon - and what happens next.

A few thoughts from Japan on Honda's sad decision to close Swindon. (Honda will hold a press conference in Tokyo at 8am UK time.) There are two questions: why and why now? I think the answers are different

Why? Frankly, Swindon *never* made an adequate return for Honda. There's too much capacity in Europe and the situation got worse and worse as Honda's market share fell. Output at 160k last year is sub-scale. It's an obvious business decision to close it.

However, Honda has avoided that obvious business decision for many years. Instead, they've tried everything possible to keep Swindon open, such as exporting to the US. 3/
*
Why now? Brexit promises to raise costs for parts and reduce access to the EU - fatal for an already marginal plant. More importantly, it gives a company that hates to close factories or sack people a license to act. *4/

The role of the EU-Japan trade deal is interesting. Britain pushed for the earliest possible reduction in EU auto tariffs, believing it would help Japanese assembly plants in the UK. There was some logic to this - if they had access to the EU market. 5/

German and French manufacturers always thought Japan would just move assembly home. With the UK outside the EU, the trade deal makes that easy. Past UK policy comes back to bite us

The next question is Toyota in Burnaston. That is an equally subscale plant. Business logic says Toyota should close it, but like Honda, they'll try everything to make it work. I'm afraid the mood music from Toyota these days is not encouraging.

It's a tragedy really. Swindon was a huge investment, attracted with much difficulty, and started with high hopes. Once it's gone it'll never come back. I also wonder when we'll hear the first UK voices calling for Trump-style protectionism. 8/8

//...................................................


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Of course its brexits fault


 You know quite well that everything is Brexit's fault!! There is a shortage of anaesthetic gas (for veterinary use) and I asked the vet (hopefully) if this was because of Brexit, but sadly it is absolutely nothing to do with it. So that is very disappointing for some of you, I'm sure.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> It never fails to amaze me how you always manage to twist things to suit your bigoted and highly patronising point of view!


You know what: I know at whom your post is aimed even tho' I have her on ignore . . . give it a try!! It was because of the constant patronising comments that I decided to use the ignore function.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> It is partly, because they can't guarantee to have the parts on time, with all the possible delays at the ports that could delay parts getting to the factory on time and stop production.


You don't think they have those same issues in America?

They aren't leaving there. The market is much bigger than the whole EU put together and the US aren't in halfway house yet. Penalizing gas guzzlers while not embracing alternatives


----------



## Calvine

Honda Europe senior vice president Ian Howells told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "This is not a Brexit related issue for us."


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> You don't think they have those same issues in America?
> 
> They aren't leaving there. The market is much bigger than the whole EU put together and the US aren't in halfway house yet. Penalizing gas guzzlers while not embracing alternatives


If you say so I'm not in the mood for silly arguments, all I'll say is they don't have the English Chanel to cross to there parts from A to B.


----------



## Magyarmum

On CNN 30 seconds ago.

The presenter has just said that Honda has confirmed their decision has nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> You know quite well that everything is Brexit's fault!! There is a shortage of anaesthetic gas (for veterinary use) and I asked the vet (hopefully) if this was because of Brexit, but sadly it is absolutely nothing to do with it. So that is very disappointing for some of you, I'm sure.


Now, even a hard Remainer such as myself would admit Brexit _could _be used as an excuse to close down UK operations.

Conversely it's a bit too much of a coincidence to turn a blind eye to the amount of job losses Brexit most certainly is responsible for.

Certainly, if I had a business that depended on easy access across Europe I would have moved production outside the UK by now if gridlocks and tariffs are to be avoided. Sadly I don't blame any firm for doing so.

That is not only a direct result of Brexit, it's 100% the fault of Theresa May and her government.

I remember when unemployment dramatically increased in the Thatcher era we were told it wasn't the government's fault, even if their economic policies in itself clearly showed it was!

But, like the Brexit jobs purge, it was considered a price worth paying...


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I
> 
> And are Birds and similar organizations so guileless it's never occurred to them they could quite easily up their prices knowing the blame would be directly attributed to Brexit?


 It seems more logical to me, that the extra tariffs producers will be forced to pay will be passed on to the customer.












Calvine said:


> You know quite well that everything is Brexit's fault!! There is a shortage of anaesthetic gas (for veterinary use) and I asked the vet (hopefully) if this was because of Brexit, but sadly it is absolutely nothing to do with it. So that is very disappointing for some of you, I'm sure.


There will medical shortages for humans soon, never mind pets.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> It seems more logical to me, that the extra tariffs producers will be forced to pay will be passed on to the customer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There will medical shortages for humans soon, never mind pets.


According to Birds Eye they use british fish, which I believe would be their most expensive ingredient, so how can you put a tariff on something you caught for yourself

EDITED to say I got this wrong, please read a few posts down


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> According to Birds Eye they use british fish, which I believe would be their most expensive ingredient, so how can you put a tariff on something you caught for yourself


Take a look at this article Alex.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/...848221?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> According to Birds Eye they use british fish, which I believe would be their most expensive ingredient, so how can you put a tariff on something you caught for yourself


I already asked that and the answer was that the imported packaging would be more expensive.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Take a look at this article Alex.
> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/...848221?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


Here's the useful bit of that article and thanks for posting it as I now know more about Fish fingers 

_"If you look at our portfolio of goods, that could range from anywhere between 2% and 20%. That is a significant new cost.

"We buy fish on a global basis, we make fish fingers in our factory in Germany and we bring those into the UK. We want to continue our investment story, we want to continue to grow our business and expand our capacity. But where we place those investments, with the current situation and the fiasco around Brexit, we can't decide where to do it until we get clarity."

_
Just a quick note, you make everything read very patronising, you do this by going "please read this article, Alex" yes it may be grammatically correct but it just sounds so patronising when you read it out loud with the pause that a comma gives.


----------



## Elles

Honda make its electric vehicles in Japan and China. It recently partnered with a Chinese battery manufacturer. Its European HQ will still be in the U.K., but it will close the factory when production ends on the model it makes there. It would have done this whether we stay in the Eu or not. Honda will export its electric vehicles from Japan and China to Europe.

This probably also has something to do with the recent trade deal the Eu signed with Japan. With tariffs eliminated, there is no need for Japanese manufacturers to build any of their cars in Europe. They are already set up and manufacturing future hybrid/electric models in Japan/China, so why move those operations to here or Europe. There’s no need, it makes far more sense to increase productivity at home.

Let’s concentrate on companies who are actually closing factories etc because of Brexit. Of course we’ll know more about that when we do actually leave. At the moment it’s the uncertainty that is delaying decision making, not actual Brexit and, sad to say, uncertainty and delay is down to the government bodies and individuals who want to stay in the Eu, not those who want to leave it.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Honda make its electric vehicles in Japan and China. It recently partnered with a Chinese battery manufacturer. Its European HQ will still be in the U.K., but it will close the factory when production ends on the model it makes there. It would have done this whether we stay in the Eu or not. Honda will export its electric vehicles from Japan and China to Europe.
> 
> This probably also has something to do with the recent trade deal the Eu signed with Japan. With tariffs eliminated, there is no need for Japanese manufacturers to build any of their cars in Europe. They are already set up and manufacturing future hybrid/electric models in Japan/China, so why move those operations to here or Europe. There's no need, it makes far more sense to increase productivity at home.
> 
> Let's concentrate on companies who are actually closing factories etc because of Brexit. Of course we'll know more about that when we do actually leave. At the moment it's the uncertainty that is delaying decision making, not actual Brexit and, sad to say, uncertainty and delay is down to the government bodies and individuals who want to stay in the Eu, not those who want to leave it.


The real struggle is finding all of the relevant details like you have done here, so as to determine why certain companies are closing down sites.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> The real struggle is finding all of the relevant details like you have done here, so as to determine why certain companies are closing down sites.


The Eu have been negotiating a free trade deal with Japan for some time now. Britain was never going to be a major beneficiary as it makes it too easy for Japanese companies who are based here to relocate operations back to Asia. Britain and Japan have always had a strong relationship, with the Japanese keen to set its European/U.K. ops here. There is no longer any need.

If we want to blame anyone, we could blame the Eu and government for its rules on emissions and trade deals. It meant diesel cars we were told to buy and hence were manufactured here, are no longer viable. I have a diesel car myself, it's worth peanuts. Plus the Eu on its trade deal with Japan making it only sensible for Japanese companies to leave the U.K. and go back to Japan.

We're gleefully hiding what's really been happening behind brexit, when brexit is pretty much the innocent party here.


----------



## Elles

Btw as a small manufacturer of upgrade parts for motor vehicles, including cars and motorcycles, the laws and policies surrounding said products is of major importance to us. What Japan (and our government/Eu) does in a particular area can make or break us, so we do try to keep an eye on what’s going on.


----------



## Snoringbear

So, the Porsche additional 10% is simply to recoup the cost of WTO tariffs. It's nothing to do with trying to increase profit margins. If anything, it will prevent them making any small incremental increase this year on their products. But it's there as a contingency for a no-deal straight to WTO outcome. If there's a deal, it won't come into affect.

Whether someone buying a Porsche can easily afford an extra few thousands is a moot point. But a 10% WTO tariff on cars would affect products from all countries. So if someone was going to buy a £10k car, that would now be £11k. Can't see car manufacturers sucking up the cost of the the full cost of the tariffs tbh, although large volume manufacturers may have more wiggle room than the likes of Porsche.

Writing has been on the wall that Japanese will ditch the UK in the event of no-deal for some time now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...odbye-to-u-k-as-gateway-to-europe-post-brexit


----------



## AlexPed2393

Why is the BBC celebrating illegal immigration with this article?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-47284426
*'Crossing the Channel by boat is risky - we came by lorry'*

*Azis did not think of staying in France, because he speaks English, has relatives in the UK, and because the UK government helps refugees, he says. "They give houses and everything," he says. "In France it isn't like that. They do help, but nothing like that."

He adds: "I am overjoyed and thank God for this. England is like heaven to me. No-one can hurt us here and we can sleep properly for the first time in months. My daughter can start school and get an education. She will be very clever and maybe even a doctor."
*


----------



## Arnie83

On the subject of Honda, Nissan, Birdseye, etc. I would make just a couple of comments.

Firstly that while there is a tendency for those who think Brexit is a bad idea to claim that everything is the fault of Brexit, there is also a tendency of those who favour Brexit to believe any assertion that such-and-such is nothing to do with Brexit, but then, when it _is_ cited as contributory, to dismiss it as a convenient excuse. I have little doubt that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

But secondly, I think it is unarguable from a financial point of view that with the changes going on in the global economy, Brexit is going to be more unhelpful to the UK than it would have been had the global outlook been more rosy. This is definitely not a good time to alienate our biggest market with a No Deal divorce.


----------



## Arnie83

On the subject of tariffs, the view of Patrick Minford - Rees-Mogg's source of all Brexit benefits - that the tariffs on UK exports to the EU will be paid by the EU importers, while the tariffs on the EU exports to the UK will be paid by the EU exporters. Isn't that marvellous! What are we waiting for!

(I've got a link somewhere to Minford actually saying it in a speech to the Bruges group if anyone really wants to hear him, but I can't be bothered to find it right now.)


----------



## Elles

I don't doubt that in the event of no deal any extra costs incurred by companies will be passed onto the consumer. The consumer will then buy less of it and profits will suffer.

For myself I think people and particularly shareholders/corporations/the big guns are too greedy, selfish and wasteful, so it is swings and roundabouts to a degree. It's also a shame that the world has gone down a route where big money and corporations is how we operate now, with each individual replaceable and insignificant. We need to go back to our nature of tribes it seems, not run away from it, chasing the money.

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/health/article/2018/05/02/johann-hari-modern-life-making-us-sick

The planet and our health needs us to stop being so wasteful and materialistic.

So why are the anti-establishment, green, supposedly caring people, constantly on about money and so adamant that the Eu is great and can see no advantages at all that could be gleaned from leaving it?


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> You know quite well that everything is Brexit's fault!! There is a shortage of anaesthetic gas (for veterinary use) and I asked the vet (hopefully) if this was because of Brexit, but sadly it is absolutely nothing to do with it. So that is very disappointing for some of you, I'm sure.


I guess we're going to hear that everything is Brexit's fault for ever and ever!


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I already asked that and the answer was that the imported packaging would be more expensive.


That wasn't _quite_ what I said  


Jesthar said:


> If the associated costs of producing that food rise (fuel, non-UK sourced ingredients, packaging etc.), then the cost of the food will rise. Tarrifs would only be a minor element in all that.


Personally, I suspect fuel could be the biggest factor - you can't fish without it (unless you are going back to sailboats and ice blocks), you can't run factories without it, you can't make deliveries without it etc. We're reliant on fuel imports, so price rises are very probable. But ANY part of the manufacturing process that involves imports, from plastic wrap to printing ink, could see non-trivial price rises that would increase production costs and therefore also affect the end price.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> That wasn't _quite_ what I said
> 
> Personally, I suspect fuel could be the biggest factor - you can't fish without it (unless you are going back to sailboats and ice blocks), you can't run factories without it, you can't make deliveries without it etc. We're reliant on fuel imports, so price rises are very probable. But ANY part of the manufacturing process that involves imports, from plastic wrap to printing ink, could see non-trivial price rises that would increase production costs and therefore also affect the end price.


Quite true. 

Companies that cut back on waste, reduce their carbon footprint and promote it, will probably do well out of Brexit. School kids are going on strike to save the planet and they say a quarter? Of 18-24 year olds have cut dairy out of their diets, so it's important to a significant number of the new generation and their new customers.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Quite true.
> 
> Companies that cut back on waste, reduce their carbon footprint and promote it, will probably do well out of Brexit. School kids are going on strike to save the planet and they say a quarter? Of 18-24 year olds have cut dairy out of their diets, so it's important to a significant number of the new generation and their new customers.


You make it sound deceptively simple and cheap, but I can say from experience that such things tend to be complicated and expensive once you get past the low hanging fruit (IF there are any low hanging fruit left - many companies have already plucked them).

Plus you have to take human nature into account - given the choice between sticking to your principles and being able to afford to eat, not many will choose to starve, for example 

Not trying to be deliberately negative, just realistic


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So why are the anti-establishment, green, supposedly caring people, constantly on about money and so adamant that the Eu is great and can see no advantages at all that could be gleaned from leaving it?


Having read the Shock Doctrine I'm surprised you still don't know the answer tbqh.

But to reiterate, brextremists are salivating at the prospect of leaving the EU because destroying the economy creates opportunity for disaster capitalists who exploit crisis through the application of the 'shock doctrine'.

_"A combination of economic rupture, sudden shifts in ownership, an urgent desire to strike new trade deals and a possible regulatory abyss presents a golden opportunity for disaster capitalism"_

*Why disaster capitalists are praying for a no-deal Brexit*
*They want to tear up our green regulations so they can plunder and pollute the environment for profit*


https://www.theguardian.com/comment...saster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I don't doubt that in the event of no deal any extra costs incurred by companies will be passed onto the consumer. The consumer will then buy less of it and *profits will suffer*.
> 
> For myself I think people and particularly shareholders/corporations/the big guns are too greedy, selfish and wasteful, so it is swings and roundabouts to a degree. It's also a shame that the world has gone down a route where big money and corporations is how we operate now, with each individual replaceable and insignificant. We need to go back to our nature of tribes it seems, not run away from it, chasing the money.
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/health/article/2018/05/02/johann-hari-modern-life-making-us-sick
> 
> The planet and our health needs us to stop being so wasteful and materialistic.
> 
> So why are the anti-establishment, green, supposedly caring people, constantly on about money and so adamant that the Eu is great and can see no advantages at all that could be gleaned from leaving it?


I wouldn't argue with the logic of that, but we also need to bear in mind that it's the profits from business that pay for both the staff, and the taxes that pay for the needy. Especially with a benefit-cutting Tory government, when profits suffer, so do the poor.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> You make it sound deceptively simple and cheap, but I can say from experience that such things tend to be complicated and expensive once you get past the low hanging fruit (IF there are any low hanging fruit left - many companies have already plucked them).
> 
> Plus you have to take human nature into account - given the choice between sticking to your principles and being able to afford to eat, not many will choose to starve, for example
> 
> Not trying to be deliberately negative, just realistic


In this country the choice is usually between what to eat, or what not to, than starvation, or even affordability. A lot of what is good for us is also cheap, it just isn't ready packaged. Though of course we haven't left the Eu yet and as according to some reports we'll be grubbing in the dirt, or fighting in the streets, we might get there I suppose.

A woman whose children are dying of disease and malnutrition in a war torn, or famine affected country would be very envious of our definition of starving. I don't think talking about starvation in this respect is being realistic tbh.

People who are genuinely starving, or going really hungry in the U.K. are quite unusual and there's no need for it to happen. For those people, whether fish fingers and peas cost £1 or £5 would make no difference. Our welfare has failed them, it needs sorting out and it's usually down to logistics and administration from what I can see, rather than lack of money and happens now, nothing to do with in, or out of the Eu.

For the rest of us a percentage increase in the cost of food isn't going to break the bank and most of us could cut back on what we consume without ever being hungry and I include myself in that. Whether the possibility is a reason for staying in the Eu would be down to the individual.

The so called poor can speak for themselves and many will have voted to leave the Eu and for a conservative government. When I was poor, I wanted opportunity, not hand outs. The hand outs were temporary until I got back on my feet. So long as we're able, I'm sure many of us with any sense could feel the same. It would have annoyed me no end, the well off going on about how I feel about it, or should feel and wanting to look after me, as though I'm some kind of incapable. I was poor, not paralysed from the brain down.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> In this country the choice is usually between what to eat, or what not to, than starvation, or even affordability. A lot of what is good for us is also cheap, it just isn't ready packaged. Though of course we haven't left the Eu yet and as according to some reports we'll be grubbing in the dirt, or fighting in the streets, we might get there I suppose.
> 
> A woman whose children are dying of disease and malnutrition in a war torn, or famine affected country would be very envious of our definition of starving. I don't think talking about starvation in this respect is being realistic tbh.
> 
> People who are genuinely starving, or going really hungry in the U.K. are quite unusual and there's no need for it to happen. For those people, whether fish fingers and peas cost £1 or £5 would make no difference. Our welfare has failed them, it needs sorting out and it's usually down to logistics and administration from what I can see, rather than lack of money and happens now, nothing to do with in, or out of the Eu.
> 
> For the rest of us a percentage increase in the cost of food isn't going to break the bank and most of us could cut back on what we consume without ever being hungry and I include myself in that. Whether the possibility is a reason for staying in the Eu would be down to the individual.
> 
> The so called poor can speak for themselves and many will have voted to leave the Eu and for a conservative government. When I was poor, I wanted opportunity, not hand outs. The hand outs were temporary until I got back on my feet. So long as we're able, I'm sure many of us with any sense could feel the same. It would have annoyed me no end, the well off going on about how I feel about it, or should feel and wanting to look after me, as though I'm some kind of incapable. I was poor, not paralysed from the brain down.


I was talking in general terms about human nature in general, you know.

Still, if being moderately well off (these days, anyway) makes me ineligible to be (openly) concerned about those less well off, fair enough. 

I will make a final observation that even a moderate percentage increase in food costs would be difficult for a significant number already hovering on the breadline, but I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Elles

The poor thing was aimed at Arnie, oops, sorry Jesthar. It’s just over and over, there we go again with‘the poor’ and how if multion billion dollar companies based in Asia, America, Russia, Japan don’t continue to make huge profits for their shareholders the poor will suffer. If the poor in this country don’t have enough to eat, that’s the fault of various government bodies who should make sure they do, or in some cases the poor themselves, who spent what little they have on something else. It has little to do with whether we’re in the Eu or not imo. The breadline has moved.


----------



## Elles

It reminds me of a discussion I had with a relative when I was in my teens. I said I couldn’t understand why elderly pensioners got so little money, it was all they could get for the rest of their life, when they were forced to just stop working. She said old people don’t need money for things like new clothes and make-up, so they don’t need as much and young people need jobs more than they do, so old people shouldn’t be allowed to work once they can retire. I wonder if she voted brexit and still thought the same way when she hit retirement age.  She hardly worked a day in her life, spent most of it having kids and living off the state.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The poor thing was aimed at Arnie, oops, sorry Jesthar. It's just over and over, there we go again with'the poor' and how if multion billion dollar companies based in Asia, America, Russia, Japan don't continue to make huge profits for their shareholders the poor will suffer. If the poor in this country don't have enough to eat, that's the fault of various government bodies who should make sure they do, or in some cases the poor themselves, who spent what little they have on something else. It has little to do with whether we're in the Eu or not imo. The breadline has moved.


It doesn't matter how big the companies are or where they are based; if they make lower profits payable in the UK the Exchequer will have less to spend. But okay, we'll leave the poor to look after themselves.

If the Tory government have less taxes, they won't spend as much on environmental issues.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> In this country the choice is usually between what to eat, or what not to, than starvation, or even affordability. A lot of what is good for us is also cheap, it just isn't ready packaged.


Not if you're relying on food banks. When we leave the EU we will have a fraction of the choice we have now.



Elles said:


> Though of course we haven't left the Eu yet and as according to some reports we'll be grubbing in the dirt, or fighting in the streets, we might get there I suppose.


_"The UK imports just over half of its food, and 60% of those come from the EU with a further 11% under EU agreements with over fifty non-EU countries. These trade deals will end if we crash out. https://infacts.org/nobody-voted-brexit-for-bigger-shopping-bills/_



Elles said:


> A woman whose children are dying of disease and malnutrition in a war torn, or famine affected country would be very envious of our definition of starving. I don't think talking about starvation in this respect is being realistic tbh.


Classic whataboutism - again.



Elles said:


> People who are genuinely starving, or going really hungry in the U.K. are quite unusual and there's no need for it to happen. For those people, whether fish fingers and peas cost £1 or £5 would make no differenc


Obviously its going to push even more people struggling to make ends meet into food poverty.

Conclusion of the UN investigation.












Elles said:


> Our welfare has failed them, it needs sorting out and it's usually down to logistics and administration from what I can see, rather than lack of money and happens now, nothing to do with in, or out of the Eu


The tories have been deliberately dismantling the welfare state - when we leave they will ramp it up - Disaster capitalism.



Elles said:


> For the rest of us a percentage increase in the cost of food isn't going to break the bank and most of us could cut back on what we consume without ever being hungry and I include myself in that. Whether the possibility is a reason for staying in the Eu would be down to the individual.
> 
> The so called poor can speak for themselves and many will have voted to leave the Eu and for a conservative government. When I was poor, I wanted opportunity, not hand outs. The hand outs were temporary until I got back on my feet. So long as we're able, I'm sure many of us with any sense could feel the same. It would have annoyed me no end, the well off going on about how I feel about it, or should feel and wanting to look after me, as though I'm some kind of incapable. I was poor, not paralysed from the brain dow


It isn't the peoples fault they are stuck in a poverty trap , its the governments.

_14 million people now living in poverty, millions using food banks, soaring homelessness, deaths on our streets, malnutrition & return of Victorian diseases and here is Theresa May telling us how lucky we are! Make sure people know the TRUTH

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1094890716780728321
...........................................................................................................................
_

.


----------



## kimthecat

Saw this on Twitter. Advice about driving abroad after Brexit.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It doesn't matter how big the companies are or where they are based; if they make lower profits payable in the UK the Exchequer will have less to spend. But okay, we'll leave the poor to look after themselves.
> 
> If the Tory government have less taxes, they won't spend as much on environmental issues.


Did we let them get away with blaming the Eu for all our woes, for the last 40 years? Are we going to let them blame Brexit for the next 40?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Did we let them get away with blaming the Eu for all our woes, for the last 40 years? Are we going to let them blame Brexit for the next 40?


The Tories, you mean?

Not entirely, but they certainly deflected a lot of the blame, and will certainly continue to do so. I've often wondered how the RWP and the Leave campaign managed to blame the struggling NHS on the numbers of mainly young, fit EU migrants clogging up the GP surgeries!


----------



## rona

I see another extremist has been allowed back into the Labour party


----------



## Snoringbear

Just saw this: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-tariffs-in-case-of-no-deal-michael-gove-says


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why is the BBC celebrating illegal immigration with this article?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-47284426
> *'Crossing the Channel by boat is risky - we came by lorry'*
> 
> *Azis did not think of staying in France, because he speaks English, has relatives in the UK, and because the UK government helps refugees, he says. "They give houses and everything," he says. "In France it isn't like that. They do help, but nothing like that."*
> 
> *He adds: "I am overjoyed and thank God for this. England is like heaven to me. No-one can hurt us here and we can sleep properly for the first time in months. My daughter can start school and get an education. She will be very clever and maybe even a doctor."*


In what way are they celebrating? It looks like a straightforward news report to me, however, you are the one framing the story. You keep labelling these desperate people as 'illegal immigrants' even though you cannot possibly know that. And tbqh I'm not sure what this has to do with leaving the eu? As I've already tried to explain its already in our power to control of own borders & the UK deals with people who claim asylum at its own discretion.

When we leave the EU we will have less control of our borders however.
*Degradation of border security' under 'no-deal' Brexit, warns UK Border Force*
https://news.sky.com/story/degradat...no-deal-brexit-warns-uk-border-force-11614725

And my massive criticism of the BBC is they should screaming from the rooftops about a REAL crisis we face, the greatest crisis mankind has ever faced! - climate change. If they did, a few hundred people trying to find refuge in our country would pale into insignificance. Climate change will displace millions more people - we need to tackle the root of the problem to solve the refugee crisis.

,

.

.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Did we let them get away with blaming the Eu for all our woes, for the last 40 years? Are we going to let them blame Brexit for the next 40?


When the powerfui who pushed for brexit have reduced our country to this >> https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...s-idiots-they-know-exactly-what-they-re-doing - the tories will say, its not our fault - brexit was 'the will of the people'.

...

...


----------



## noushka05

This is great by David Schneider

:Singing


Brexiters, singing:

"Honda, Nissan, Panasonic
Schaeffler, Airbus, Dyson, Sony 
Philips, UBS, Hitachi, 
Jaguar Land Ro. 

Bupa, Axa, Flybmi 
Barclays, UBS, Toshiba 
UK’s richest man is leaving 
Ford and P&O 

We didn’t start the fire 
Don’t say our words are weasel 
It’s because of diesel"

....................


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> This is great by David Schneider
> 
> :Singing
> 
> Brexiters, singing:
> 
> "Honda, Nissan, Panasonic
> Schaeffler, Airbus, Dyson, Sony
> Philips, UBS, Hitachi,
> Jaguar Land Ro.
> 
> Bupa, Axa, Flybmi
> Barclays, UBS, Toshiba
> UK's richest man is leaving
> Ford and P&O
> 
> We didn't start the fire
> Don't say our words are weasel
> It's because of diesel"
> 
> ....................


Lord above that man is a painful bore.

He wasn't funny on Alan Partridge and he certainly hasn't improved.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Lord above that man is a painful bore.
> 
> He wasn't funny on Alan Partridge and he certainly hasn't improved.


First George, now David:Jawdrop - who next Caroline?



I wonder if Dave's had the call?:Smuggrin lol

*The only good thing to come out of Brexit - Alan Partridge is back*

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ut-of-brexit-alan-partridge-is-back-1-5892619


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> In what way are they celebrating? It looks like a straightforward news report to me, however, you are the one framing the story. You keep labelling these desperate people as 'illegal immigrants' even though you cannot possibly know that. And tbqh I'm not sure what this has to do with leaving the eu? As I've already tried to explain its already in our power to control of own borders & the UK deals with people who claim asylum at its own discretion.
> 
> When we leave the EU we will have less control of our borders however.
> *Degradation of border security' under 'no-deal' Brexit, warns UK Border Force*
> https://news.sky.com/story/degradat...no-deal-brexit-warns-uk-border-force-11614725
> 
> And my massive criticism of the BBC is they should screaming from the rooftops about a REAL crisis we face, the greatest crisis mankind has ever faced! - climate change. If they did, a few hundred people trying to find refuge in our country would pale into insignificance. Climate change will displace millions more people - we need to tackle the root of the problem to solve the refugee crisis.
> 
> ,
> 
> .
> 
> .


It is the language used in the article, it almost feels like it should be celebrated that they got here safely, giving minimal coverage to the fact they could have stayed in any other country in europe they passed through. amongst many other things that could have been mentioned


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I see another extremist has been allowed back into the Labour party


Derek hatton ?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It doesn't matter how big the companies are or where they are based; if they make lower profits payable in the UK the Exchequer will have less to spend. But okay, we'll leave the poor to look after themselves.
> 
> If the Tory government have less taxes, they won't spend as much on environmental issues.


Aren't we supposed to be voting in a labour government to take care of all that? The more profit a company makes, the more they have available to spend on clever accounting seems to me. Making more money doesn't seem to equal paying more tax, unless we keep taxes low enough for them to stomach.

Tax havens don't seem to struggle to get tax money. Britain becomes more tax beneficial and companies will choose to pay their taxes here. Look at the hugely profitable gambling companies leaving Gibraltar since they lost their tax benefits. Big mistake for Gib, but we had to be PC over gambling addiction and let countries who are less PC about it profit.

Swings and roundabouts.


----------



## kimthecat

Watching Politics Live , man said about Brexit , the result was absurd, subtitles said The result was a turd ! :Hilarious

I think Arniecat would agree with that .


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Watching Politics Live , man said about Brexit , the result was absurd, subtitles said The result was a turd ! :Hilarious
> 
> I think Arniecat would agree with that .


Most accurate translation I've seen, certainly! :Hilarious And sadly a non-flushable one, it would seem


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Most accurate translation I've seen, certainly! :Hilarious And sadly a non-flushable one, it would seem


:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> they could have stayed in any other country


You are right, Alex: in fact should have stayed . . . 
17 Jan 2019 - Under the Geneva Convention _refugees_ should seek refuge in the _first safe country_ they come to.


----------



## kimthecat

Latest. One more labour MP and three conservative MPs join the breakaway group .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...l&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_mchannel=social

hree Tory MPs have resigned from the party to join an independent group, set up by former Labour MPs.

Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen wrote a joint letter to Theresa May to confirm their departure.

The PM said she was "saddened", but her party would "always offer... decent, moderate and patriotic politics".

The three said Brexit had "redefined the Conservative Party - undoing all the efforts to modernise it" and there had been a "shift to the right".

The pro-Remain trio will join the new Independent Group - made up of eight Labour MPs who resigned from their party over its handling of Brexit and anti-Semitism - saying it represented "the centre ground of British politics".


----------



## Tawny75

kimthecat said:


> Latest. One more labour MP and three conservative MPs join the breakaway group .
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...l&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_mchannel=social
> 
> hree Tory MPs have resigned from the party to join an independent group, set up by former Labour MPs.
> 
> Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen wrote a joint letter to Theresa May to confirm their departure.
> 
> The PM said she was "saddened", but her party would "always offer... decent, moderate and patriotic politics".
> 
> The three said Brexit had "redefined the Conservative Party - undoing all the efforts to modernise it" and there had been a "shift to the right".
> 
> The pro-Remain trio will join the new Independent Group - made up of eight Labour MPs who resigned from their party over its handling of Brexit and anti-Semitism - saying it represented "the centre ground of British politics".


I don't think these are going to be the only ones either. If more do so they will have more MP's than the DUP, will this affect the 'Confidence and supply' agreement that currently stands?


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> It is the language used in the article, it *almost feels like it should be celebrated that they got here safely*, giving minimal coverage to the fact they could have stayed in any other country in europe they passed through. amongst many other things that could have been mentioned


No words.



Calvine said:


> You are right, Alex: in fact should have stayed . . .
> 17 Jan 2019 - Under the Geneva Convention _refugees_ should seek refuge in the _first safe country_ they come to.


This is a lie direct from the racists at UKIP HQ.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

*Do refugees have to stay in the first safe country they reach?*


*Claim*
Under the Geneva Convention refugees should seek refuge 
in the first safe country they come to.

*Conclusion*
Incorrect. The UN Refugee Convention does not make this requirement of refugees, and UK case law supports this interpretation. 
Refugees can legitimately make a claim for asylum in the UK after passing through other "safe" countries.

................................................................


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Aren't we supposed to be voting in a labour government to take care of all that?


I don't know; are we? If so, then it doesn't look like happening any time soon.



Elles said:


> The more profit a company makes, the more they have available to spend on clever accounting seems to me. Making more money doesn't seem to equal paying more tax, unless we keep taxes low enough for them to stomach.


Tax havens don't seem to struggle to get tax money. Britain becomes more tax beneficial and companies will choose to pay their taxes here. Look at the hugely profitable gambling companies leaving Gibraltar since they lost their tax benefits. Big mistake for Gib, but we had to be PC over gambling addiction and let countries who are less PC about it profit.

Swings and roundabouts.[/QUOTE]

The vast majority of companies are not huge multinational corporations with highly paid accountants moving profits around the world. It's the small ones that cumulatively supply much of the tax money spent in the public sector (though I'll have to look up what the split is). They will suffer because of Brexit increasing their costs and lowering their profits. That has a knock-on effect on environmental etc. spending, as well as on wage increases and new jobs. We will all lose out.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...yCBruVaKRWpTZzgFwbC4W044rJhV1kiPZbSXzH56MwYF4










Funny to think, overnight, I paid nothing to £52 a month Poll Tax from April 1990 in living in shared accommodation as the rates used to be included.

£52 is a lot of money now, let alone then.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> No words.


That's not really a great way of moving the discussion further. It should be celebrated that they got out of the country that was oppressing them and finding a safe haven as close to home as possible. Not travelling thousands of miles to try and do one of the most dangerous water crossings, oh wait THE ONLY water crossing to a developed country within mainland EU.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> That's not really a great way of moving the discussion further. It should be celebrated that they got out of the country that was oppressing them and finding a safe haven as close to home as possible. Not travelling thousands of miles to try and do one of the most dangerous water crossings, oh wait THE ONLY water crossing to a developed country within mainland EU.


Maybe you would think differently if you walked a mile in their shoes Alex. People don't risk their lives to come here without good reason. Some come here because they have family, some because they speak English & many because they believe us to be a tolerant country. Our country helped to create the refugee crisis, some would say its our moral duty to do all we can to help! But many people don't even care that these are some of the most desperate human beings on the planet. The likes of Farage & Trump & Cameron et al have done fine job dehumanising them!


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Maybe you would think differently if you walked a mile in their shoes Alex. People don't risk their lives to come here without good reason. Some come here because they have family, some because they speak English & many because they believe us to be a tolerant country. Our country helped to create the refugee crisis, some would say its our moral duty to do all we can to help! Some people don't seem to care that these are some of the most desperate human beings on the planet. The likes of Farage & Trump & Cameron et al have done fine job dehumanising them!


You still aren't really answering the question of why not any other country they passed through. Don't use English speaking as the only barrier as when I go on holiday I don't speak a word of afrikaans, portugese, spanish, french, german, austrian, swiss but still get along.

If I walked a mile in their shoes as I am a pragmatic person I would take the first bit of help being offered and wait there so i could go back home as quickly as possible


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> You still aren't really answering the question of why not any other country they passed through. Don't use English speaking as the only barrier as when I go on holiday I don't speak a word of afrikaans, portugese, spanish, french, german, austrian, swiss but still get along.
> 
> If I walked a mile in their shoes as I am a pragmatic person I would take the first bit of help being offered and wait there so i could go back home as quickly as possible


Alex, I can easily guess whose post you are answering and the poster is totally deluded.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You still aren't really answering the question of why not any other country they passed through. Don't use English speaking as the only barrier as when I go on holiday I don't speak a word of afrikaans, portugese, spanish, french, german, austrian, swiss but still get along.
> 
> If I walked a mile in their shoes as I am a pragmatic person I would take the first bit of help being offered and wait there so i could go back home as quickly as possible


You will (hopefully) never know what its like to walk in their shoes. Non of us can begin to imagine what they have seen or been through. https://www.freemovement.org.uk/refugees-claim-asylum-upon-arrival-first-safe-country/


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Alex, I can easily guess whose post you are answering and the poster is totally deluded.


At least I don't regurgitate the lies of hatemongers.


----------



## StormyThai

AlexPed2393 said:


> Don't use English speaking as the only barrier as when I go on holiday I don't speak a word of afrikaans, portugese, spanish, french, german, austrian, swiss but still get along.


It's bit different visiting somewhere on holiday and getting by without speaking the language than settling down and trying to find employment, housing and all those things that come with making a new life IMHO


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Don't use English speaking as the only barrier as when


I didn't.



noushka05 said:


> Some come here because they have family, some because they speak English & many because they believe us to be a tolerant country.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You will (hopefully) never know what its like to walk in their shoes. Non of us can begin to imagine what they have seen or been through. https://www.freemovement.org.uk/refugees-claim-asylum-upon-arrival-first-safe-country/


You're still not answering the original question


----------



## AlexPed2393

StormyThai said:


> It's bit different visiting somewhere on holiday and getting by without speaking the language than settling down and trying to find employment, housing and all those things that come with making a new life IMHO


Totally agree, but on holiday you know you are there for a week or two at most, if you know you will be staying there for a prolonged period you would try your best to learn the language, integrate etc.
But yes i totally agree with you


----------



## Arnie83

Whatever the ins and outs of refugees / migrants trying to get to the UK, we should remember that it won't be changed much, if at all, by Brexit. And that it's not a big problem, despite Farage's poster and Javid Khan's 'major incident'.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I didn't.


 Being an English speaker is consistently one of your main reasons. People also do not have to be constantly connected to their family, how long did they live apart from their family until they became refugees.

I understand it is a comfort that in times of trouble you want to be around those that you know, but sometimes that isn't possible


----------



## Magyarmum

StormyThai said:


> It's bit different visiting somewhere on holiday and getting by without speaking the language than settling down and trying to find employment, housing and all those things that come with making a new life IMHO


OK I'm retired but apart from that, I did it when I moved to Hungary, and so did many of the other ex-pat Brits (immigrants), I know, who live here I've been here 11 years and still don't speak or understand much Hungarian.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Just found this too.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics 

The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.

That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


----------



## StormyThai

Magyarmum said:


> OK I'm retired but apart from that, I did it when I moved to Hungary, and so did many of the other ex-pat Brits (immigrants), I know, who live here I've been here 11 years and still don't speak or understand much Hungarian.


I didn't say that it wasn't possible, just that it was different 
I know that if I was relocating somewhere and didn't have the time to learn the language (or at least enough) then I would choose an English speaking county.

I worked in France for a short period in my younger years and even though I took French at school (so knew enough to get by) I felt very isolated.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just found this too.
> 
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
> 
> The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.
> 
> That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


So, the majority are legal immigrants, then?

I work in a highly specialised industry. We routinely employ people from overseas (as in outside the EU) because of a lack of UK candidates with the correct education, knowledge, experience and skills. We can't force UK people to choose to learn the subjects and skills we need, so we have to find them where we can.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> So, the majority are legal immigrants, then?


Yep, still far, far too many though in my opinion. I agree with your point on specialised industry and that is why a stricter immigration policy is needed so that people like you mentioned can still come to the UK to work.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Being an English speaker is consistently one of your main reasons


No it is not Where I have 'consistently' said this? . Unlike you, I don't care what their reasons are for wanting to come here. Seeking asylum is good enough reason for me. They are processed before they are allowed to remain, Alex.



AlexPed2393 said:


> eople also do not have to be constantly connected to their family, how long did they live apart from their family until they became refugees.


If this country gets raised to the ground & my family is split up, come hell or high water I will do everything I possibly can to get to my loved ones. But that's just me.



AlexPed2393 said:


> I understand it is a comfort that in times of trouble you want to be around those that you know, but sometimes that isn't possible


But you surely can't blame them for trying? Where is the compassion?

.


----------



## Elles

What is available in the U.K. for people to acquire the correct education, skills, experience etc? 

Should we rely on other countries to train people for us to use?


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just found this too.
> 
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
> 
> The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.
> 
> That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


OMG Migration Watch? Yet another dodgy right wing think tank based at 55 Tufton street. 55 Tufton street is the home of the shady extreme right wing think tanks funded by dark money pushing for brexit.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> No it is not Where I have 'consistently' said this? .


I'm not going through all the posts but it has definitely been used more than once on this topic of conversation.



noushka05 said:


> Unlike you, I don't care what their reasons are for wanting to come here


So if there reasoning for coming specifically to the UK is that they will get free money from the government, never have to contribute and never have to integrate with our society you are sweet with that?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> OMG Migration Watch? Yet another dodgy right wing think tank based at 55 Tufton street. 55 Tufton street is the home of the shady extreme right wing think tanks funded by dark money pushing for brexit.


You use sources that massively support your views so why can't other people use theirs, especially when all I posted was sheer numbers and facts, not an opinionated news article written by a highly opinionated brexiteer who wants the EU to rot in hell?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> What is available in the U.K. for people to acquire the correct education, skills, experience etc?
> 
> Should we rely on other countries to train people for us to use?


Just because it's available, doesn't mean people will choose it. Horses, water, drinking and all that.

With the possible exception of medical degrees and training, there has been a shortage of that kind of training for a while due to funding cuts (as I understand it)


----------



## AlexPed2393

I didn't post this:

*20 Bogus Arguments for Mass Immigration*
History & Miscellaneous: MW 269

*1.Introduction*
This paper outlines the many myths that are put forward by the mass immigration lobby in support of the current levels of immigration and dispels each myth in turn.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm not going through all the posts but it has definitely been used more than once on this topic of conversation.
> 
> So if there reasoning for coming specifically to the UK is that they will get free money from the government, never have to contribute and never have to integrate with our society you are sweet with that?


Use the search bar to support your accusation. It takes a few seconds. Good luck with it 

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1

*The facts about asylum*
*Asylum seekers and refugees do not get large handouts from the state*

Asylum seekers do not come to the UK to claim benefits. In fact, most know nothing about welfare benefits before they arrive and had no expectation that they would receive financial support. 
(Refugee Council, Chance or Choice? Understanding why asylum seekers come to the UK, 2010)
Most asylum seekers are living in poverty and experience poor health and hunger. Many families are not able to pay for the basics such as clothing, powdered milk and nappies.
(The Children's Society Briefing highlighting the gap between asylum support and mainstream benefits, 2012 Independent Asylum Commission citizens' inquiry in The Independent, 2007)
Almost all asylum seekers are not allowed to work and are forced to rely on state support - this can be as little as £5 a day to live on.
Asylum seekers do not jump the queue for council housing and they cannot choose where they live. The accommodation allocated to them is not paid for by the local council. It is nearly always 'hard to let' properties, where other people do not want to live.
Asylum seeking women who are destitute are vulnerable to violence in the UK. More than a fifth of the women accessing our therapeutic services had experienced sexual violence in this country. (Refugee Council, The experiences of refugee women in the UK, 2012)
Asylum Seekers do not receive more benefits than pensioners in UK (UK Parliament briefing paper, 2012)


----------



## AlexPed2393

The amount of posts you have done, I am not trawling through them all 



noushka05 said:


> Use the search bar to support your accusation. It takes a few seconds. Good luck with it


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just found this too.
> 
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
> 
> The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.
> 
> That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


To maintain the topic specificity, net EU migration to the UK was 74,000.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You use sources that massively support your views so why can't other people use theirs, especially when all I posted was sheer numbers and facts, not an opinionated news article written by a highly opinionated brexiteer who wants the EU to rot in hell?


I use reliable sources for my information because I'm only interested in facts. For facts about migration the Migration Observatory is trusted. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/videos/presenting-facts-migration/


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> The amount of posts you have done, I am not trawling through them all


Not with the search bar as you can use the date, so stop making excuses


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Just because it's available, doesn't mean people will choose it. Horses, water, drinking and all that.
> 
> With the possible exception of medical degrees and training, there has been a shortage of that kind of training for a while due to funding cuts (as I understand it)


You're probably right. Being picky over immigration won't solve it either.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Use the search bar to support your accusation. It takes a few seconds. Good luck with it
> 
> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1
> 
> *The facts about asylum*
> *Asylum seekers and refugees do not get large handouts from the state*
> 
> Asylum seekers do not come to the UK to claim benefits. In fact, most know nothing about welfare benefits before they arrive and had no expectation that they would receive financial support.
> (Refugee Council, Chance or Choice? Understanding why asylum seekers come to the UK, 2010)
> Most asylum seekers are living in poverty and experience poor health and hunger. Many families are not able to pay for the basics such as clothing, powdered milk and nappies.
> (The Children's Society Briefing highlighting the gap between asylum support and mainstream benefits, 2012 Independent Asylum Commission citizens' inquiry in The Independent, 2007)
> Almost all asylum seekers are not allowed to work and are forced to rely on state support - this can be as little as £5 a day to live on.
> Asylum seekers do not jump the queue for council housing and they cannot choose where they live. The accommodation allocated to them is not paid for by the local council. It is nearly always 'hard to let' properties, where other people do not want to live.
> Asylum seeking women who are destitute are vulnerable to violence in the UK. More than a fifth of the women accessing our therapeutic services had experienced sexual violence in this country. (Refugee Council, The experiences of refugee women in the UK, 2012)
> Asylum Seekers do not receive more benefits than pensioners in UK (UK Parliament briefing paper, 2012)


If it wasn't the media attacking "migrants", they'd be attacking their own.

Remember the Hillsborough front page from The Sun nearly 30 years ago and people on benefits accused of being " Scroungers"?


----------



## KittenKong

Ahem, as seen on Facebook.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Remember the Hillsborough front page from The Sun nearly 30 years ago and people on benefits accused of being " Scroungers"?


Well.... here we go.

A lot of people do cheat the benefit system and I would class them as 'Scroungers'. The benefits system should be there for people in need, have too low a wage to live off of it. Not for those who are unwilling to work when they can do so, have children irresponsibly and generally leech off of society believing they deserve everything given to them.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Well.... here we go.
> 
> A lot of people do cheat the benefit system and I would class them as 'Scroungers'. The benefits system should be there for people in need, have too low a wage to live off of it. Not for those who are unwilling to work when they can do so, have children irresponsibly and generally leech off of society believing they deserve everything given to them.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-unemployment-experiment-trial-a8769621.html

*Universal basic income trial in Finland fails to help unemployed people back to work*
*Money did not appear to spur the recipients on to seek work more, researchers say*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> What is available in the U.K. for people to acquire the correct education, skills, experience etc?
> 
> Should we rely on other countries to train people for us to use?


University fees should be brought down to the original level or abolished, if Poland can afford free state universities what stops Britain?
Give the chance to bright kids from poorer families!

In Poland there is a support for children from low income families and scholarships for the good students.

Gibraltar supports students, it might be gone when Brexit hits our economy though...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Anna Soubry and two other Tories left the party.

Brexit inferno ...

Wonder what people in Swindon think about it now?
Japanese PM came here in desperate bid to talk some sense to our PM.

Now EU immigrants have no reason to come to steal your jobs...the jobs will be moved to EU anyway...

Happy now?


----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just found this too.
> 
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
> 
> The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.
> 
> That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


Remember they put students in that number and many times May was asked not to.


----------



## Snoringbear

ETA subscription link only, so removed.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> University fees should be brought down to the original level or abolished, if Poland can afford free state universities what stops Britain?
> Give the chance to bright kids from poorer families!
> 
> In Poland there is a support for children from low income families and scholarships for the good students.
> 
> Gibraltar supports students, it might be gone when Brexit hits our economy though...


University fees were first brought in by the Labour Government in 1998.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_fees_in_the_United_Kingdom*

! know there used to be scholarships for children from lower income families because my OH came from a poor family and was given a scholarship to a Grammar School - but that was in the 50's and I'm not sure when it all stopped!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> University fees were first brought in by the Labour Government in 1998.


Fine, but this government have had nine years in which to reverse it, yet did the opposite by increasing it, then planting the blame onto Nick Clegg.

The excuses to keep blaming the last Labour government are wearing very thin.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> University fees were first brought in by the Labour Government in 1998.
> 
> ! know there used to be scholarships for children from lower income families because my OH came from a poor family and was given a scholarship to a Grammar School - but that was in the 50's and I'm not sure when it all stopped!


I would not mind reasonablefees to stop time wasters, 3 k would be top! Per year.
How can you have young people graduating with a 50 k debt if you count tuition, lodging etc... with no certainty of a well paid job???
In on of the richest countries?
Britain does not lack in bright kids, but wastes human potential and has to seek young people educated elsewhere!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

The Times: EU immigration is down!!!
But.... more non EU workers coming than ever....


Howard and Gove at war - who should bear the brunt of food prices going up? Farmers or consumers?

Car industry, farming , manufacturing, financial services, universities , research all will take the hit and already are affected.

But as one wise man said on this forum “ Brexit hasn’t happened yet, so it cannot be the effect of Brexit”.
Another, Gove actually said “ We don’t need experts”.

Were then experts very far off predicting this hellish mess?
Why should Tusk send fathers of Brexit to hell?
They actually created one themselves and even Belzebub couldn’t come with more cunning plan of splitting and public humiliation of Britain.

So Johnson ( so quiet nowadays) and Farage led people by lies and more lies to Leave and thought Cameron will have a plan?

No plan, no idea, no competence, I would actually charge them with criminal negligence of their duty to their country.
MPs, MEP all have responsibilities for the country that chose them, for the money they should work for.
Criminal negligence, fraud and corruption. Misleading and misrepresentation.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Fine, but this government have had nine years in which to reverse it, yet did the opposite by increasing it, then planting the blame onto Nick Clegg.
> 
> The excuses to keep blaming the last Labour government are wearing very thin.


How is stating an irrefutable fact, blaming the Labour Government?

Higher education wasn't free until the 1960's Fees were dependent on your parents income and were determined by a means test.

I was accepted to study dentistry by Leeds University but couldn't go because as my father earned a reasonable salary the fees he was expected to pay was more than he could afford.

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective

*University fees in historical perspective*


----------



## Magyarmum

European Commision Press Release

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-19-1335_en.htm

*Joint statement on behalf of President Juncker and Prime Minister May*


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.waterbriefing.org/home/...ove-for-guarantee-on-water-safety-post-brexit


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> How is stating an irrefutable fact, blaming the Labour Government?
> 
> Higher education wasn't free until the 1960's Fees were dependent on your parents income and were determined by a means test.
> 
> I was accepted to study dentistry by Leeds University but couldn't go because my father earned a reasonable salary the fees he was expected to pay was more than he could afford.
> 
> http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective
> 
> *University fees in historical perspective*


Real shame that education wasn't free .
In Poland means tested are only subsidies for students from low income families.
Tuition and a place in student's halls for students living too far to commute were free and free soup for all who needed. I had it when broke...
We had students from very modest background, who had no famiy support and they could graduate with no debts.
Even from medical academies where is so much studying that they cannot get part time jobs.

Also parents might not want to support adult children so just the fact they can doesn't mean they would.
Not fair to force parents or force students to depend on them.

I would also abolish fees for top students as incentive to study hard rather than look for part time jobs and missing lectures as a result.

I had scholarships as from my second year and throughout my Masters and was able to support myself with summer jobs only.

I would not be able to pay debts from my first tiny salary as a research assistant, I was even a bit worse off working initially...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> very small minority is refugees


 And of those ''refugees'', many are in fact ''migrants'' rather than families fleeing persecution.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> If it wasn't the media attacking "migrants", they'd be attacking their own.
> 
> Remember the Hillsborough front page from The Sun nearly 30 years ago and people on benefits accused of being " Scroungers"?


I do, and dont forget the miners. The tories & their media friends turned swathes of the country against our communities. Same old divide and rule tactics.












Calvine said:


> And of those ''refugees'', many are in fact ''migrants'' rather than families fleeing persecution.


No it isn't a fact. This is more propaganda peddled by the hate mongers at UKIP HQ, Calvine. I think opinions like yours shows how effective the right wing politicians and the right wing press have been in sowing the seeds of division which has led us to this brexitshambles. History will be damning of Farage, Mogg, May. Johnson & co.

*The verdict*
*On the latest figures, Mr Farage is wrong to suggest that "most" people who claim to be refugees are really found to be economic migrants.*

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-are-most-asylum-seekers-really-economic-migrants


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> European Commision Press Release
> 
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-19-1335_en.htm
> 
> *Joint statement on behalf of President Juncker and Prime Minister May*


Another nice jaunt at our expense to achieve nothing


----------



## rona

rona said:


> I see another extremist has been allowed back into the Labour party





kimthecat said:


> Derek hatton ?


Well that didn't last long did it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47312006


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise. Not.

*Compassion in World Farming*‏Verified account @ciwf Feb 19
The current UK Government plans will *water* down animal protections post-*Brexit*. Speak up for animals who can't speak for themselves - please ask your MP to support a #BetterDealForAnimals ttps://www.wcl.org.uk/warnings-of-public-dismay-as-animals-become-victims-of-brexit …


----------



## KittenKong

Speaking of the miners and the appalling way they were starved by the government and the media's hatred towards them this popped into my FB Newsfeed this morning.

"The Miners' fight is our fight", how true that was.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Speaking of the miners and the appalling way they were starved by the government and the media's hatred towards them this popped into my FB Newsfeed this morning.
> 
> "The Miners' fight is our fight", how true that was.
> 
> View attachment 394192


Prophetic.

ETA Did you know the police used to taunt the miners by flicking coins at them & waving their pay packets at them , asking them how much they'd been paid this week?

.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Speaking of the miners and the appalling way they were starved by the government and the media's hatred towards them this popped into my FB Newsfeed this morning.
> 
> "The Miners' fight is our fight", how true that was.
> 
> View attachment 394192


Sometimes in life things aren't all they appear to be! I suggest you read this .......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/feb/24/miners-strike-photo-don-mcphee

The miners' strike 1984-85
*The miner and the copper*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Sometimes in life things aren't all they appear to be! I suggest you read this .......
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/feb/24/miners-strike-photo-don-mcphee
> 
> The miners' strike 1984-85
> *The miner and the copper*


I knew the real story, the right wing press no doubt put their own spin on it to frame the miners as the militant thugs for their readers.

I bought this t shirt for my Cousin-in-law, a proud ex miner & one of the Class of 84. He was over the moon with it


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Prophetic.
> 
> ETA Did you know the police used to taunt the miners by flicking coins at them & waving their pay packets at them , asking them how much they'd been paid this week?
> 
> .


Yes, I remember that all too well. I understand Thatcher bribed them with a significant pay increase to get them on her side.

With Brexit I'm very surprised May hasn't done the same, then she's hardly the most competent of politicians is she.

They'll remember her for the cuts in police numbers as HS.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Well that didn't last long did it?
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47312006


:Hilarious Unbelievable !


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> What a surprise. Not.
> 
> *Compassion in World Farming*‏Verified account @ciwf Feb 19
> The current UK Government plans will *water* down animal protections post-*Brexit*. Speak up for animals who can't speak for themselves - please ask your MP to support a #BetterDealForAnimals ttps://www.wcl.org.uk/warnings-of-public-dismay-as-animals-become-victims-of-brexit …


But if they do this, and enough people are up in arms (which they should be) surely they are just making themselves unelectable next time round?

I was a die hard tory voter remember, but voted green at the least GE. If enough people feel the same way the Tories won't last long.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> Remember they put students in that number and many times May was asked not to.


People are people


----------



## StormyThai

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just found this too.
> 
> https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
> 
> The latest net migration statistics show that in the year ending June 2018, net migration to the UK was 273,000.
> 
> That is roughly the population of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which in my mind is bonkers. (Obviously a very small minority is refugees)


I think that it is only fair to show that on the other side of this point 784,900 British citizens live in the EU, excluding the UK and Ireland on 1 January 2017.

So yes people move here to either work for a better life, they like the place or they want to live closer to family....but just as many Brits move out to other countries...add that to the fact that migration is at it lowest for 4 years...to me it's pretty clear that migration of people isn't an issue 

No need to reply, just thought I'd add the other side to the migration debate...I'll leave you all to it now


----------



## Magyarmum

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

*Migrants in the UK: An Overview*

*Migration Statistics - Parliament UK*

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06077/SN06077.pdf

*House of Commons Migration Statistics UK citizens living in the EU*


----------



## AlexPed2393

StormyThai said:


> I think that it is only fair to show that on the other side of this point 784,900 British citizens live in the EU, excluding the UK and Ireland on 1 January 2017.
> 
> So yes people move here to either work for a better life, they like the place or they want to live closer to family....but just as many Brits move out to other countries...add that to the fact that migration is at it lowest for 4 years...to me it's pretty clear that migration of people isn't an issue
> 
> No need to reply, just thought I'd add the other side to the migration debate...I'll leave you all to it now


That figure was for nit migration in that year, not all time. So over time more people will be coming in than leaving. Migration of people is an issue, maybe not where you live, but it is elsewhere.
I wanted to reply


----------



## StormyThai

AlexPed2393 said:


> So over time more people will be coming in than leaving.


In your opinion...unless you have proof I don't buy it...expats are everywhere just as they are entitled to be 



AlexPed2393 said:


> Migration of people is an issue, maybe not where you live, but it is elsewhere


We have housing issues, we have employment issues, we have healthcare issues and a large population of migrants....none of the issues that we have are the result of migrants 
FWIW with our housing issue they are building a stupid amount of new houses in my town...no one can afford them though so we will still have a housing crisis.
Migration really is not this huge issue that some like to make it out to be...but migrants will always be blamed 

OK now I am really done..sorry but felt that needed a reply as it was insinuating that I don't understand migration, which couldn't be further from the truth


----------



## AlexPed2393

StormyThai said:


> In your opinion...unless you have proof I don't buy it...expats are everywhere just as they are entitled to be
> 
> We have housing issues, we have employment issues, we have healthcare issues and a large population of migrants....none of the issues that we have are the result of migrants
> FWIW with our housing issue they are building a stupid amount of new houses in my town...no one can afford them though so we will still have a housing crisis.
> Migration really is not this huge issue that some like to make it out to be...but migrants will always be blamed
> 
> OK now I am really done..sorry but felt that needed a reply as it was insinuating that I don't understand migration, which couldn't be further from the truth


Here you go . I'm sorry if you took it that you didn't understand migration, didn't mean it that way. Here are the stats from the year ending June 2018. I couldn't find an all time migration/emigration chart thingy but I'll have a look

*Migration by Citizenship*
5. The International Passenger Survey records the nationality of those interviewed so estimates of migration by citizenship can be produced. Table 1 below shows a breakdown of the latest figures.

More British citizens leave the country than arrive. EU net migration is currently 74,000 compared to 248,000 from outside the EU.










I'll try and find a longer term chart rather than a yearly one


----------



## Arnie83

*Germany resists UK plea to resume arms sales to Saudi Arabia*
Foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt raises issue at Brexit talks with German counterpart in Berlin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-resume-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia?CMP=twt_gu

Good for them / How dare they; depending on your viewpoint.


----------



## Arnie83

*Brexit: UK will apply food tariffs in case of no deal*

Environment Secretary Michael Gove has promised that the government will apply tariffs to food imports in the event of a no-deal Brexit, to provide "specific and robust protections" for farmers.

"The EU is protectionist".


----------



## Arnie83

*Tory MP Christopher Davies Charged Over Expenses Claims*

"The EU is corrupt."


----------



## AlexPed2393

StormyThai said:


> In your opinion...unless you have proof I don't buy it...expats are everywhere just as they are entitled to be
> 
> We have housing issues, we have employment issues, we have healthcare issues and a large population of migrants....none of the issues that we have are the result of migrants
> FWIW with our housing issue they are building a stupid amount of new houses in my town...no one can afford them though so we will still have a housing crisis.
> Migration really is not this huge issue that some like to make it out to be...but migrants will always be blamed
> 
> OK now I am really done..sorry but felt that needed a reply as it was insinuating that I don't understand migration, which couldn't be further from the truth


Here is a long term study, from a source that Noush says is reputable . There is a slidey bar graph halfway down the page where you can see the numbers year on year

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ternationalmigrationtoandfromtheuk/2016-12-01


----------



## StormyThai

Ok...I take on board that your opinion on more coming than leaving has a basis...migration numbers are still nothing to do with the issues the UK has and I will stand by that.
My area has the third largest number of foreign born migrants in the UK...it's not them putting the house prices up to the point no one can afford them, it's not them raising rental prices, it's not them shutting down our drop in centers or doctor surgeries and they aren't "taking our jobs" either.


I really need to stop saying that I am done...It really irritates me when others do the same


----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> People are people


Not the same as they pay a lot to our budget, unis need them to survive, then they go home, or even if they stay after graduation we have highly trained professionals we actually need!

Hardly criminal and benefits sponging material!!!

You obviously don't see it like that.

Neither has May... she is on personal anti foreigners quest...
?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> But if they do this, and enough people are up in arms (which they should be) surely they are just making themselves unelectable next time round?
> 
> I was a die hard tory voter remember, but voted green at the least GE. If enough people feel the same way the Tories won't last long.


If enough people didn't care about the badgers, the crisis in our NHS & public services, soaring homelessness & poverty etc - I doubt this would sway them. The tories have a lot of safe seats, plus they have much of the media on side, plus they are gerrymandering!. Worst still, after brexit the Withdrawal Act will give them unprecedented power - Henry VIII powers. Added to that:Wtf they know the country will be thrown into chaos, with food & medical shortages, mass job losses & so on , the country will be so distracted they will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Its called the shock doctrine. They can get away with things they couldn't get away with in normal times. This is what brexit was always about a right wing power grab so they can deregulate for corporate profit.

Anyway, welcome to the light side


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> from a source that Noush says is reputable


The Beano?


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> The Beano?


And even that would be more reliable than UKIP central :Hilarious


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-warn-of-40-tariffs-on-food-in-no-deal-brexit


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> The Beano?


The Dandy actually :Angelic


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> People are people


Students return home. Plus they make a huge economic & cultural contribution to our country.


----------



## Elles

https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/document/the-costs-of-corruption-across-the-european-union/

https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...-meps-expenses-wholly-inadequate-say-critics/

https://cyclingindustry.news/under-...ctric-bike-dumping-duties-will-be-terminated/


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:
Spare a thought for the poor arms dealers.

I'm just so proud of this government.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-germany-yemen-war-crimes-nato-a8787866.html

*David Schneider*‏: A reminder that being decent and moderate means asking others to let your pals make 
more money from the bombing of civilians in Yemen.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Oh man, Oh man. Has anyone just seen what Corbyn said on ITV news?
Way to alienate your entire voting pool


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Here you go . I'm sorry if you took it that you didn't understand migration, didn't mean it that way. Here are the stats from the year ending June 2018. I couldn't find an all time migration/emigration chart thingy but I'll have a look
> 
> *Migration by Citizenship*
> 5. The International Passenger Survey records the nationality of those interviewed so estimates of migration by citizenship can be produced. Table 1 below shows a breakdown of the latest figures.
> 
> More British citizens leave the country than arrive. EU net migration is currently 74,000 compared to 248,000 from outside the EU.
> 
> View attachment 394207
> 
> 
> I'll try and find a longer term chart rather than a yearly one


The EU has rules which specifically state that EU migration must not put additional strain on public services, I honestly don't see what the problem is. There are very real crises we are facing, migration is not one of them.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh man, Oh man. Has anyone just seen what Corbyn said on ITV news?
> Way to alienate your entire voting pool


No I haven't. Is it worse than this then?



noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏:
> Spare a thought for the poor arms dealers.
> 
> I'm just so proud of this government.
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-germany-yemen-war-crimes-nato-a8787866.html
> 
> *David Schneider*‏: A reminder that being decent and moderate means asking others to let your pals make
> more money from the bombing of civilians in Yemen.


----------



## noushka05

Or this @AlexPed2393 ?

*Caroline Lucas*‏:
.LiamFox's post #Brexit trade deals could hold future govts to ransom.

By including ISDS clauses that would let corporations sue ministers, they threaten our environment, health, workers' rights & democracy.

,,,,


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh man, Oh man. Has anyone just seen what Corbyn said on ITV news?
> Way to alienate your entire voting pool


No, what did he say?


----------



## AlexPed2393

I'd have a look at what he says in full. Not really helping his chances of getting elected.... ever


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'd have a look at what he says in full. Not really helping his chances of getting elected.... ever
> 
> View attachment 394249


Then if this will prevent him ever getting elected, our country is in as bad a state as I suspected. If people think this is worse than the misery & suffering the tories have inflicted upon millions of innocent lives & their shambolic brexit, they should be downright ashamed of themselves. Good on Corbyn for having the courage to say the right thing & not pander to the likes of Farage & his ilk.

This is great!

_Nina Schick surgically skewers Michael Heaver with his own logic >>

_

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098009898116415489
(just look at his stupid face:Hilarious)


----------



## KittenKong

Wouldn't that be good!

The Conservative British Nationalist Party as it has become.


----------



## Snoringbear




----------



## Elles

Not sure why it alienates his entire voting pool, but ok.

Some might say she was radicalised as a child and brainwashed into a religious death and suicide cult, like Waco and Jonestown, or even a ufo cult like Scientology, and place a lot of blame on her parents who are still here and particularly her father who seems to have some sympathy for isis. A young girl brought up in Britain, who has come to believe that beheading people is a good thing to do, isn’t quite right imo.

I’m not sure I agree with shipping her off to Bangladesh, when it’s this country who brought her up and where she accessed the information that led her to do what she did. Not really thinking of her rights, but ours. We should have the right to bring her back, question her, incarcerate her and treat her. She’s still agreeing with beheading, that’s surely grounds to have her committed. How is she Bangladesh’s problem, when she was born and raised here and her family are legal immigrants?

Corbyn is still a fool though. I’d have to be paid a lot of money to vote for him.


----------



## Arnie83

As expected ...

*Brexit: Japan trade deal will not be ready by deadline*

The UK won't be able to roll over an EU trade deal with Japan in time for Brexit, Trade Secretary Liam Fox has said.

It was one of the most important EU trade deals the UK hoped to replicate ahead of the 29 March withdrawal date.

The Department of International Trade also said that the EU's customs union deal with Turkey will not be ready.

In 2017 Mr Fox said the UK would be able to replicate 40 EU free trade deals by Brexit day.

But so far his department has only been able to finalise "continuity agreements" with seven of the 69 countries and regions with which the EU has trade deals.

These include Switzerland, Chile, the Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa, Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The UK also has mutual recognition agreements signed with the US, Australia and New Zealand.​
It adds weight to the argument that Brexit should (at least) be postponed.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Not sure why it alienates his entire voting pool, but ok.
> 
> Some might say she was radicalised as a child and brainwashed into a religious death and suicide cult, like Waco and Jonestown, or even a ufo cult like Scientology, and place a lot of blame on her parents who are still here and particularly her father who seems to have some sympathy for isis. A young girl brought up in Britain, who has come to believe that beheading people is a good thing to do, isn't quite right imo.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with shipping her off to Bangladesh, when it's this country who brought her up and where she accessed the information that led her to do what she did. Not really thinking of her rights, but ours. We should have the right to bring her back, question her, incarcerate her and treat her. She's still agreeing with beheading, that's surely grounds to have her committed. How is she Bangladesh's problem, when she was born and raised here and her family are legal immigrants?
> 
> Corbyn is still a fool though. I'd have to be paid a lot of money to vote for him.


I think she should be allowed in for her baby's sake.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> As expected ...
> 
> *Brexit: Japan trade deal will not be ready by deadline*
> 
> The UK won't be able to roll over an EU trade deal with Japan in time for Brexit, Trade Secretary Liam Fox has said.
> 
> It was one of the most important EU trade deals the UK hoped to replicate ahead of the 29 March withdrawal date.
> 
> The Department of International Trade also said that the EU's customs union deal with Turkey will not be ready.
> 
> In 2017 Mr Fox said the UK would be able to replicate 40 EU free trade deals by Brexit day.
> 
> But so far his department has only been able to finalise "continuity agreements" with seven of the 69 countries and regions with which the EU has trade deals.
> 
> These include Switzerland, Chile, the Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa, Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
> 
> The UK also has mutual recognition agreements signed with the US, Australia and New Zealand.​
> It adds weight to the argument that Brexit should (at least) be postponed.


 I see your point but I wonder how much damage would be done elsewhere if its postponed. The uncertainty is causing so much damage and firms and business can't make plans . I dont blame any firm for pulling out if Brexit is delayed .

I think this is part of your cunning plan to delay Brexit , 

I still can't get over the fact the Government didnt have a plan for Brexit . Ludicrous.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/article/document/the-costs-of-corruption-across-the-european-union/
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/eur...-meps-expenses-wholly-inadequate-say-critics/
> 
> https://cyclingindustry.news/under-...ctric-bike-dumping-duties-will-be-terminated/


https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/08/08/inenglish/1502192834_823925.html

*The lucrative business of securing Europe's borders*

http://politicalcritique.org/world/eu/2018/building-walls-european-union/

*Building walls: fear and securitization in the European Union*

https://www.politico.eu/article/selmayr-ombudsman-oreilly-wraps-up-job-probe/

*Ombudsman wraps up Selmayr job probe*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

T***!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 394267


*So?*


----------



## KittenKong

Remember this?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1959452780838894&id=155710354774360


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Remember this?
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1959452780838894&id=155710354774360


 Still tickles me

LOL


----------



## KittenKong

Check out @BBCNewsnight's Tweet:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098291266452901889


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> *So?*


The company vow business as usual after March 29th, but reading between the lines it appears they're expecting the possibility of disruptions and chaos at customs and passport control at both ends that could put people off travelling.

I guess they've implemented the guarantee incase this should happen.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Facebook:

Worth remembering that May's determination to implement a fraudulent result is in fact an illegal coup. 

In the Article 50 case today the PM’s QC has said that there is no basis to find the EU referendum illegal because it was advisory..... but agreed that the result of the EU referendum is fraudulent.

Judges have confirmed categorically that had the vote been mandatory the referendum would have been quashed.

The EU referendum has no value so cannot be deemed to be invalid even though bloody May the Tories and some in Labour have said it is the 'will of the people' and a mandate for brexit. Clearly it is no such thing. The result is a lie and nothing more than this.

Why would anyone respect a result which if mandatory would have been declared invalid. Brexit is being carried out because of fraud - not a legal mandate, not the 'will if the people'. Why aren't MPs making this clear and ensuring that brexit is stopped?


----------



## KittenKong

Well, they did say Britain stood alone before.
:Hilarious









https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ngladesh-shamima-begum-isis-a8790521.html?amp


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Check out @BBCNewsnight's Tweet:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098291266452901889
> View attachment 394312
> 
> 
> View attachment 394315


Anna Soubry really has come out of her shell by confirming what I've been saying about May for so long.

Hats off to her.


----------



## Magyarmum

An article worth reading from Forbes about how Brexit will affect the Czech Republic.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogera...itish-nationals-trade-in-the-eu/#21bb252759ce

*How Brexit Will Affect British Nationals & Trade In The EU*


----------



## Magyarmum

Deleted


----------



## rona

I don't know why you've linked to this?
It's not even funny and some people may believe it......they seem to believe everything else in cartoons and tweets


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I think she should be allowed in for her baby's sake.


If she seemed to have an ounce of regret, I'd agree.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I don't know why you've linked to this?
> It's not even funny and some people may believe it......they seem to believe everything else in cartoons and tweets


OK No problem!

I'll delete it then!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/artic...kWRhU7s_v-_y_ImHEHHDzeCbhpHGwiF8PVQtUC_70nbo0


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> OK No problem!
> 
> I'll delete it then!


You really didn't have to you know, you obviously thought it was funny. I found it a little offensive but everyone is entitled to their own view point


----------



## noushka05

More top investigative journalism from Open Democracy on dark money subverting our democracy. This should be all over the news! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098511233861500928
*Peter Geoghegan*‏:
_
How dark money is winning 'the Brexit influencing game' - big new @openDemocracy exclusive shows how secretive think tanks and lobbyists close to ERG and hard Brexiters have "unfettered" access to ministers and senior politicians_ https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-how-dark-money-is-winning-brexit-influencing-ga …

(Thread)

_Yesterday three Tory MPs resigned saying their party was "in the grip" of the ERG "recklessly marching the country to the cliff edge of no deal". But who provides the behind the ERG? Well, mostly it seems to be the IEA, and its trade advisor Shanker Singham._
_
When ERGers say there's "alternative vision" for Brexit, they cite Singham's work. Singham frequently appears at ERG press conferences. Singham even attended Cabinet Office meeting recently w/ Brexit secretary Steve Barclay and government officials. 
This is 'extraordinary' access

Now documents obtained by @openDemocracy show in new detail the depth of the personal and professional connections between the IEA, a registered charity that does not discloses its funders, and senior government ministers, as well as the ERG










Singham personally arranged for interest groups to meet then Brexit minister + ex ERG chair Steve Baker. Baker also had dinner w/a think tank funded by IEA 'in a personal capacity' while minister. Other senior IEA staff had easy access to cabinet ministers such as Esther McVey.









A meeting between David Davis and Singham was not recorded in official data. DExEU said was "an error". Last summer, the IEA's director said he could avoid having to record Singham's presence on official data by using his name instead of Singahm's on transparency registers.

_









T_he Charity Commission has twice found that Singham's Brexit work breached charity rules but still the IEA has access to the highest levels of government and regularly appear in media. Many of those who say 'no deal' is 'no problem' cite Singham's work._
_
ith Westminster in chaos and Whitehall paralysed, an unelected lobbyist is playing a pivotal role in pushing ideas for a hard break with EU into the heart of government.
But what's even more remarkable is we have no idea who is paying the IEA or Singham. 
*Who stands to benefit?*
*
*_


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'd have a look at what he says in full. Not really helping his chances of getting elected.... ever
> 
> View attachment 394249


Much as I criticise Corbyn over Brexit he is right in this instance by not pandering to the likes of Steven Yaxley-Lennon and Katie Hopkins in this latest Brexit distraction.

If anyone wants to discuss this then perhaps it needs a thread on its own, but I'll leave it here:









Same goes for Farage and co.


----------



## noushka05

Andy McDonald was on fire on BBCQT last night. Totally agree with what he said about the labour defectors too,

'"_To think for one minute that the Conservative party are looking after the majority of people in this country is one of the most shameful things I have heard' _Labour's Andy McDonaldMP attacks Tory welfare reforms. #bbcqt


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098723654630809601
.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I see your point but I wonder how much damage would be done elsewhere if its postponed. *The uncertainty is causing so much damage and firms and business can't make plans *. I dont blame any firm for pulling out if Brexit is delayed .
> 
> I think this is part of your cunning plan to delay Brexit ,
> 
> I still can't get over the fact the Government didnt have a plan for Brexit . Ludicrous.


The problem is that when (if) May's withdrawal deal, such as it is, goes through, we are still no nearer knowing what our trading relationship with the EU will be by 2021, or whenever the end of 'transition' is supposed to be.

Uncertainty for business will continue, and in December 2021 we'll be in exactly the same position we are in now, with cross-channel shuttling trying to sort out an 11th hour deal between the EU leaders and whoever the UK PM is.

And until that's settled, there won't be any substantive trade deals agreed with anyone else because they will depend on what the deal with the EU looks like.

It's either certainty by calling it all off, or more uncertainty by embarking on the hard part of the negotiations. I wonder what the People want now.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The problem is that when (if) May's withdrawal deal, such as it is, goes through, we are still no nearer knowing what our trading relationship with the EU will be by 2021, or whenever the and of 'transition' is supposed to be.
> 
> Uncertainty for business will continue, and in December 2021 we'll be in exactly the same position we are in now, with cross-channel shuttling trying to sort out an 11th hour deal between the EU leaders and whoever the UK PM is.
> 
> And until that's settled, there won't be any substantive trade deals agreed with anyone else because they will depend on what the deal with the EU looks like.
> 
> It's either certainty by calling it all off, or more uncertainty by embarking on the hard part of the negotiations. I wonder what the People want now.


 Thanks for explaining.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Thanks for explaining.


I'm just a little ray of sunshine!


----------



## KittenKong

No wonder they don't like experts...


----------



## KittenKong

https://infacts.org/brexit-makes-a-...ipFHYZ-pKtHp4dXdSEflHzmCVVfXnxmMDuGdh5KyMs0n0


----------



## KittenKong

_Brexit Exposed:_

EDITORIAL: HOW BREXIT WAS WON | By a constant drip feed of smaller and bigger lies over many years.

A couple of decades ago it was single mothers who were in the crosshairs by the right wing press to receive condemnation and decried as society's enemy.

A few years later it switched to welfare claimants in general. 'Scroungers' who stole the wealth of everyday people. A distortion to look in the wrong direction whilst the newspaper owners creamed off the wealth a million times that of a claimant without a job in a town destroyed by lost manufacturing or industries.

Over recent years - since these newspapers sell simple hate to ignorant minds, created and maintained by the very lack of public education and public interest they themselves create, the venom switched to EU immigrants and the EU - as the EU itself began to look into the very tax affairs these wealthy tabloid proprietors were seeking to avoid by hiding it in offshore havens from 2013.

Telling lies about the EU became a win-win. It was a business model. It sold papers to those not knowing any better, it kept their minds uneducated and uncritical to spew out more hate and it gave the opportunity to leave a reforming organisation looking to curb the very lies they made through regulation and the avoidance of tax they made from it.

Cue, the right wing press - having taken their readers for idiots for years, then doing their best to keep them there - completed the intellectual raid on their readers by getting them to hate the EU and dislike the people from it.

'Unelected bureaucrats' to 'bendy bananas' became - those who who understood - downright lies and utterly ridiculous arguments against the EU, but to the majority who didn't, they became a language and gospel which is now so engraved in their psyche that these people are, or at least many of them, completely brainwashed as to the truthful reality of what the EU is and what EU nationals bring to the value and wealth of our country.

Should a nation base its decisions on lies, especially those served by ultra-rich billionaires owning the press to serve their own self interest and wealth accumulation, which is then hidden away to avoid paying its due to public services?

This is the question at the heart of Brexit.

The answer is No.

It should have been No on June 23 2016. It has been No ever since - and, with a moral compass and national interest put first - it will be No tomorrow, too.

- Page Editor

....and very much related:


----------



## cheekyscrip

Has anyone have any idea if EU person can legally come for a visit to Gibraltar after 29 March? My friend wants to come and no idea whether we can collect her from Malaga or if she can come through the frontier... no knowing what Spanish side will do...


----------



## KittenKong

Will you still have your EU passport Cheeky? I don't know if it would be easier to meet her over the border into Spain.

No doubt some here will say, "Nothing will change", but seriously no one yet knows for sure and so close to Brexit day?

If we _must _have Brexit this should've been dealt with a couple of years ago.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Will you still have your EU passport Cheeky? I don't know if it would be easier to meet her over the border into Spain.
> 
> No doubt some here will say, "Nothing will change", but seriously no one yet knows for sure and so close to Brexit day?
> 
> If we _must _have Brexit this should've been dealt with a couple of years ago.


I atm have only British passport and ID. As my surname changed to renew my other one needs quite a few documents. As Gibraltar has no consulate all needs to be done in London, might try if I am there...

My OH needs to go to Malaga to fetch her so we both have to cross and Spanish already promised problems ... will they recognize our driving license? We had those problems before till EU told them they had to. Same with ID. Or putting tariffs on the crossing frontier- EU told them it is illegal to take fee for access to the frontier...

She wanted to spend some time with me in Spain and then in Gibraltar but no idea if EU citizens past 29 March can come without visa?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I atm have only British passport and ID. As my surname changed to renew my other one needs quite a few documents. As Gibraltar has no consulate all needs to be done in London, might try if I am there...
> 
> My OH needs to go to Malaga to fetch her so we both have to cross and Spanish already promised problems ... will they recognize our driving license? We had those problems before till EU told them they had to. Same with ID. Or putting tariffs on the crossing frontier- EU told them it is illegal to take fee for access to the frontier...
> 
> She wanted to spend some time with me in Spain and then in Gibraltar but no idea if EU citizens past 29 March can come without visa?


What a bloody farce. How anyone can still defend Brexit I don't know.

€60 Visa fee just to cross the border anyone?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> What a bloody farce. How anyone can still defend Brexit I don't know.
> 
> €60 Visa fee just to cross the border anyone?


Imagine the family of five...plus cat and dog


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine the family of five...plus cat and dog


Those who preach, "Just like we had to do in the good old days" ,don't think of things like this unfortunately nor do they seem to care.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Don't forget, Matthew Parris is/was(?) a Conservative.


----------



## grumpy goby

KittenKong said:


> What a bloody farce. How anyone can still defend Brexit I don't know.
> 
> €60 Visa fee just to cross the border anyone?


Out of curiosity, as I haven't seen anything, will it be a visa per visit or a 12Month permission to enter type thing? And will it be per country or for Schengen area access?

The 12Month E-visa works really well for other countries (like the Australian Authorisation to Travel process)so long as it is reasonably affordable. (note it's not a 12Month stay visa... just a holiday visa you can use over the course of 12 months validity) Families will just need to be prepared for the elevated initial cost for holidays - in an ideal worst case the visa will cover the whole schengen zone rather than per country basis... obv actual best case is a 3 month holiday visa free period as the EU already have agreed with other countries like NZ


----------



## KittenKong

Now I know many in the Tory party wish to see the unemployed work for their benefits, but the elderly being forced to work for their pensions?

Had this been in the Guardian or Independent you'd have every right to dismiss this article, but the Tory supporting Telegraph?

There's no limits to what the Tories can do after Brexit. I wonder if they'll have the decency to provide blankets and wooly hats when being forced to pick farm fruit and veg?









https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...Tw5BlcjyikOWyJ0q6egpZWh1NWWiCOe5r3M8B_8q-itAA


----------



## grumpy goby

KittenKong said:


> Now I know many in the Tory party wish to see the unemployed work for their benefits, but the elderly being forced to work for their pensions?
> 
> Had this been in the Guardian or Independent you'd have every right to dismiss this article, but the Tory supporting Telegraph?
> 
> There's no limits to what the Tories can do after Brexit. I wonder if they'll have the decency to provide blankets and wooly hats when being forced to pick farm fruit and veg?
> 
> View attachment 394602
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...Tw5BlcjyikOWyJ0q6egpZWh1NWWiCOe5r3M8B_8q-itAA


The Tories rely heavily on the elderly votes, I don't think they would cut their own nose of like this. Sounds like the ramblings of a single old fool (who probably has a lot of money to not have to worry about such things like continual income...)


----------



## KittenKong

grumpy goby said:


> The Tories rely heavily on the elderly votes, I don't think they would cut their own nose of like this. Sounds like the ramblings of a single old fool (who probably has a lot of money to not have to worry about such things like continual income...)


I think you're right. I'm surprised The Torygraph reported this though.

But nothing would surprise me with this Government all the same.


----------



## KittenKong

Updated info from the Government's own website.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nationals-travelling-to-eu-essential-information

I fail to understand how anyone could regard this as progress.

A backwards retrograde step as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Some Prime Minister's do 'ave 'em?
She's no better herself.

"Oooh Theresa"...

I would trust Frank Spencer to have done a better job.


----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook.

I found this article written by Mary Ann Sieghart, a broadcaster and journalist. 
On point in my opinion regarding the future of Britain.

Britain, The Awkward Years.
In 1962, former U.S. Secretary of State Dean Acheson Heaving observed that Great Britain had “lost an Empire but not yet found a role.” Having mourned its status as a formerly great imperial power, Britain took its first steps towards finding a new role by joining what became the EU. And that membership, however fractious it was over the years, helped the U.K. to remain one of the top five economies and powers in the world.

The loss of empire after World War II was forced on the U.K. Its exit from the EU was not. It was an entirely voluntary act of self-harm, which will leave the country in 10 years’ time feeling rather as it did in the early 1960s. It will have lost a European identity but not yet found a role. It will be undergoing the same sense of mourning and decline — but this time with no very obvious route out.

Britain’s economy, hurt by falling trade and lower foreign direct investment, will have dropped out of the world’s top five. The country may be struggling to retain its seat on the U.N. Security Council. Its military might will have been denuded by spending cuts forced on successive governments by lower tax revenues. As a result, the so-called special relationship with the U.S. will have frayed: A poorer U.K. outside the EU will be less useful both as a military ally and as a diplomatic partner.

Relationships with other non-EU countries — including the friendly Commonwealth countries — won’t have taken up the slack. Fast-growing economies such as China and India will still be disinclined to strike generous trade deals with Britain while its visa demands for their citizens are so onerous. And the British government’s fixation on cutting immigration won’t help relax those restrictions.

Like a bolshy teenager who can’t help acting in a way that makes those around him dislike him, Britain’s act of masochism in leaving the EU will create a country that is unpopular, self-hating and insecure about its identity. Unfortunately, its adolescence is likely to last longer than a few years. In 10 years’ time, it’s very doubtful that the U.K. will have “found itself.”


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> From Facebook.
> 
> I found this article written by Mary Ann Sieghart, a broadcaster and journalist.
> On point in my opinion regarding the future of Britain.
> 
> Britain, The Awkward Years.
> In 1962, former U.S. Secretary of State Dean Acheson Heaving observed that Great Britain had "lost an Empire but not yet found a role." Having mourned its status as a formerly great imperial power, Britain took its first steps towards finding a new role by joining what became the EU. And that membership, however fractious it was over the years, helped the U.K. to remain one of the top five economies and powers in the world.
> 
> The loss of empire after World War II was forced on the U.K. Its exit from the EU was not. It was an entirely voluntary act of self-harm, which will leave the country in 10 years' time feeling rather as it did in the early 1960s. It will have lost a European identity but not yet found a role. It will be undergoing the same sense of mourning and decline - but this time with no very obvious route out.
> 
> Britain's economy, hurt by falling trade and lower foreign direct investment, will have dropped out of the world's top five. The country may be struggling to retain its seat on the U.N. Security Council. Its military might will have been denuded by spending cuts forced on successive governments by lower tax revenues. As a result, the so-called special relationship with the U.S. will have frayed: A poorer U.K. outside the EU will be less useful both as a military ally and as a diplomatic partner.
> 
> Relationships with other non-EU countries - including the friendly Commonwealth countries - won't have taken up the slack. Fast-growing economies such as China and India will still be disinclined to strike generous trade deals with Britain while its visa demands for their citizens are so onerous. And the British government's fixation on cutting immigration won't help relax those restrictions.
> 
> Like a bolshy teenager who can't help acting in a way that makes those around him dislike him, Britain's act of masochism in leaving the EU will create a country that is unpopular, self-hating and insecure about its identity. Unfortunately, its adolescence is likely to last longer than a few years. In 10 years' time, it's very doubtful that the U.K. will have "found itself."


Weak & isolated brexiters have played straight into Putins hands. Russia did not interfere in our democracy for nothing, why do people think the Kremlin are vocally in support of brexit?

Russia is a hostile foreign power.

...


----------



## noushka05

grumpy goby said:


> The Tories rely heavily on the elderly votes, I don't think they would cut their own nose of like this. Sounds like the ramblings of a single old fool (who probably has a lot of money to not have to worry about such things like continual income...)


This is true, but brexit is a tory power grab. If they think they can get away with it, I wouldn't even put this past them personally. They terrify me,


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Don't forget, Matthew Parris is/was(?) a Conservative.
> 
> View attachment 394592
> 
> View attachment 394593


Brutal & bang on!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> What a bloody farce. How anyone can still defend Brexit I don't know.
> 
> €60 Visa fee just to cross the border anyone?


Stop moaning! FGS KK, Its worth sacrificing _everything_ for our blue passport & a shiny new coin

*James Wong*‏:
_Just tried to order something online from Denmark. Apparently they no longer sell to the UK, as orders accepted now may arrive after March 29 & might not be able to be fulfilled. I can't even get work supplies delivered in the time frame our gov has to sort their mess out.
_

*Health and care voices unite against a 'no deal' Brexit*
*Fri, 22 February 2019*
People from across the health and care sector - including some of its most eminent figures - have delivered a sharp warning about the risks of a 'no deal' Brexit. Patient champions, carers, doctors, academics, and leaders of charities and professional bodies have signed a joint letter to the Prime Minister urging her to prevent the UK leaving the European Union without a negotiated agreement.

The letter, coordinated by the charity coalition National Voices, points out the risks to health of a 'no deal' Brexit. Despite the Government's contingency planning, there are worrying implications for the supply of medicines, medical devices and other products, the availability of staff, reciprocal healthcare arrangements, and cross-border collaboration on patient safety, drug development and public health.

The letter is reproduced below.

https://www.nationalvoices.org.uk/s...s/download/no_deal_letter_to_pm_-_final_0.pdf

,,,,


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Has anyone have any idea if EU person can legally come for a visit to Gibraltar after 29 March? My friend wants to come and no idea whether we can collect her from Malaga or if she can come through the frontier... no knowing what Spanish side will do...


This is the latest information from Travel Supermarket.

https://www.travelsupermarket.com/e...ce/what-could-a-brexit-mean-for-our-holidays/

*What could Brexit mean for our holidays?*

My family will be coming to stay in late May, flying into Kosice airport Slovakia which is 30 miles from where I live in Hungary. I'll either drive up there to collect them or they'll take the Kosice/Budapest airport shuffle which drops them off at the petrol station in town. Whilst they're here my DIL, granddaughter and I are taking a Hungarian coach tour to spend a few days swanning around the Czech Republic.

We don't foresee any problems, and fair enough unlike you in Gibraltar where it's easy to reinstate the physical border to Spain, there are none where I live in the EU. So who's going to check our passports and restrict our moving from one country to another? Unless of course they allocate border guards specially to follow us around?


----------



## grumpy goby

I have just renewed my passport (new name)... I’m actually pleased to be getting a red/burgundy one back, I will remain in denial for another ten years from the safety of the other side of the world :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

grumpy goby said:


> I have just renewed my passport (new name)... I'm actually pleased to be getting a red/burgundy one back, I will remain in denial for another ten years from the safety of the other side of the world :Hilarious


Somewhere in one of the drawers in my house I've got my blue passport which expired in 1985!


----------



## noushka05

T

David Schneider: In this week's episode of Young People Getting Shafted By Brexit:

S_panish universities to close Erasmus scholarships for UK as result of hard Brexit. Anyone care?_

_







_


----------



## grumpy goby

Magyarmum said:


> Somewhere in one of the drawers in my house I've got my blue passport which expired in 1985!


Not being born until late 84 I have never known anything but the comfort of free movement  luckily it will probably only affect me in as many ways as the kiwi export market to the EU!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Solid advice >>

*David Schneider*‏:
Journalists. Are you interviewing a leading Brexiter? Here's a handy crib-sheet of opening questions you should always ask.

Don't let these crock-of-shite chancers get away with it.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> There's no limits to what the Tories can do after Brexit


Why after Brexit particularly tho'? Why not now? And ''community work'' isn't normally picking fruit and digging up potatoes (not in my area anyway!); it tends to be sorting pissy knickers in a charity shop. if they wanted all the retirees in a chain gang they could do it now. (I'm sure tho' I did read that Mrs Thatcher told OAP's to knit themselves woolly hats if they couldn't afford their heating bills . . . I think).


----------



## noushka05

Amazing Greta. Never afraid of speaking truth to power. 


*Greta Thunberg to EU's Juncker: "We started to clean up your mess, stop sweeping mess under carpet"*





I notice


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Why after Brexit particularly tho'? Why not now? And ''community work'' isn't normally picking fruit and digging up potatoes (not in my area anyway!); it tends to be sorting pissy knickers in a charity shop. if they wanted all the retirees in a chain gang they could do it now. (I'm sure tho' I did read that Mrs Thatcher told OAP's to knit themselves woolly hats if they couldn't afford their heating bills . . . I think).


The Withdrawal Act gives them unprecedented powers once we leave. Taking our country back my ass.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Why after Brexit particularly tho'? Why not now? And ''community work'' isn't normally picking fruit and digging up potatoes (not in my area anyway!); it tends to be sorting pissy knickers in a charity shop. if they wanted all the retirees in a chain gang they could do it now. (I'm sure tho'* I did read that Mrs Thatcher told OAP's to knit themselves woolly hats if they couldn't afford their heating bills . . . I think)*.


Yes she did, the evil cow.


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> Yes she did, the evil cow.


And wrap themselves in tinfoil! I remember my dear Nan being disgusted about this.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 394591


Including Commonwealth countries ?!?

It sounds as though they're getting a bit above themselves. ompus


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Has anyone have any idea if EU person can legally come for a visit to Gibraltar after 29 March? My friend wants to come and no idea whether we can collect her from Malaga or if she can come through the frontier... no knowing what Spanish side will do...


My current best guess, which is constantly in flux, is that we will not be leaving on 29 March. That only postpones your question I'm afraid, but we really are asking for trouble if we don't delay our departure to reach some sort of enduring Parliamentary consensus before crossing the Rubicon.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Why after Brexit particularly tho'? Why not now? And ''community work'' isn't normally picking fruit and digging up potatoes (not in my area anyway!); it tends to be sorting pissy knickers in a charity shop. if they wanted all the retirees in a chain gang they could do it now. (I'm sure tho' I did read that Mrs Thatcher told OAP's to knit themselves woolly hats if they couldn't afford their heating bills . . . I think).


After Brexit this and indeed any government will be free to do the hell they like, which is what, "Taking back control of our laws" etc. is all about.

One might suggest things were ok before "we" joined but those were the days of moderates like MacMillan, Wilson and Heath.

Not this terrifying mob of far-right Fascist-like extremists that have taken over the Tory party.

Some of course might argue Brexit under Corbyn would turn the UK into a Soviet-like state.

It was Edwina Currie I believe who told the elderly, too frightened to put on their heating, to wrap up warm and wear wooly hats.

She also suggested that, "Good Christians wouldn't get AIDS" I recall.


----------



## Calvine

Many of the posts on this thread could well be filed under ''Mass Hysteria'' I think.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Many of the posts on this thread could well be filed under ''Mass Hysteria'' I think.


Be fair though. I did mention what many believe what Brexit would be like under a Corbyn government if they were to be one.

I do try to be balanced!


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Many of the posts on this thread could well be filed under ''Mass Hysteria'' I think.


Eventually brexit supporters will collide with reality.

.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Some of course might argue Brexit under Corbyn would turn the UK into a Soviet-like state.


I'm sure they might, but Russia is an Oligarchy & everything Corbyn stands against. The tories on the other hand are bankrolled by Russia's oligarchs.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...meron-russian-oligarchs-donations-ed-miliband

*David Cameron 'must answer for Russian oligarchs' donations'*
Ed Miliband particularly questions £160,000 donation Tories accepted from wife of former Russian finance minister


----------



## Happy Paws2

The government and the main parties as we know them has completely fell apart, I don't see how they are going to fix it. 

May and Corbyn seem to have lost the plot, and there isn't anyone left fit enough to take over from them.

We really are the laughing stock of the world


----------



## Dave S

You know, I am totally sick to death of the leaver and remainer arguments and the different view points from news publications and other scaremongering articles.
The end came the other day when I was working at a branch helping out when a customer came in to have his car serviced.
He referred to Honda as a bunch of w*****'s as they were stopping the Civic production line, he then wanted to argue with me when I said that I thought the 1.6 diesel engine was a better engine than the original 2.2 which he then said he preferred, he then talked about Brexit to which I responded that it would have been better to have a constructive plan to leave rather than what Boris and Nigel wanted at which he shouted at me "You are obviously a remainer then".
He carried on shouting that he would not be coming back again (also coincides with his manufacturer service plan expiring) and left the building shouting that I should never discuss religion or politics in my job and he was going to complain to my manager.
I never started those discussions.

When his car was ready I politely gave him his keys and stamped service book back, advised him that we had not cleaned it as per his request and he departed. - All calm.

Ten minutes later he phones to complain but would not speak to the After Sales Manager, presumably because she is female, and he would not speak to the Sales Manager for reasons unknown.
*However, his boyfriend was very polite.*

Perhaps we should talk about an LGBT subject.

For the record, I can see good and bad in both camps.
I did not vote either way.
It's going to happen anyway at some time.
Our MP's of all sides have completely screwed up.
Britain is a joke around the rest of the world.

Deal with it as best you can without arguing with each other or ME.

Rant over - going out to dog agility now.


----------



## Calvine

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...deal-negotiation-sharm-el-sheikh-summit-Egypt

Apologies if this already posted. (And apologies that it's DE - tho' I know some of you love it.)


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> The government and the main parties as we know them has completely fell apart, I don't see how they are going to fix it.
> 
> May and Corbyn seem to have lost the plot, and there isn't anyone left fit enough to take over from them.
> 
> We really are the laughing stock of the world


Yesterday Garfield went to see his vet, we talked about what we are to do if frontier closed... 
He said he tried to follow Brexit on English and Spanish channels and just cannot make sense of it.
He asked if everyone there lost the plot...
Very much same comments from anyone in EU trying to follow Brexit...

"English don't know what they want and cannot themselves agree on anything " ....
Those whose business is involved with Britain are totally frustrated by now.
British reputation for being, solid, dependable business partner is demolished now.
Who can tries to find other options...
Neither May or Corbyn appear to be in touch with reality...


----------



## Calvine

Dave S said:


> I should never discuss religion or politics


 Did he think you're a member of the royal family then? He sounds like he might have a screw loose!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Dave S said:


> You know, I am totally sick to death of the leaver and remainer arguments and the different view points from news publications and other scaremongering articles.
> The end came the other day when I was working at a branch helping out when a customer came in to have his car serviced.
> He referred to Honda as a bunch of w*****'s as they were stopping the Civic production line, he then wanted to argue with me when I said that I thought the 1.6 diesel engine was a better engine than the original 2.2 which he then said he preferred, he then talked about Brexit to which I responded that it would have been better to have a constructive plan to leave rather than what Boris and Nigel wanted at which he shouted at me "You are obviously a remainer then".
> He carried on shouting that he would not be coming back again (also coincides with his manufacturer service plan expiring) and left the building shouting that I should never discuss religion or politics in my job and he was going to complain to my manager.
> I never started those discussions.
> 
> When his car was ready I politely gave him his keys and stamped service book back, advised him that we had not cleaned it as per his request and he departed. - All calm.
> 
> Ten minutes later he phones to complain but would not speak to the After Sales Manager, presumably because she is female, and he would not speak to the Sales Manager for reasons unknown.
> *However, his boyfriend was very polite.*
> 
> Perhaps we should talk about an LGBT subject.
> 
> For the record, I can see good and bad in both camps.
> I did not vote either way.
> It's going to happen anyway at some time.
> Our MP's of all sides have completely screwed up.
> Britain is a joke around the rest of the world.
> 
> Deal with it as best you can without arguing with each other or ME.
> 
> Rant over - going out to dog agility now.


I could clearly see why Leave Believe could be frustrating, stuffing is coming out of Brexit is Brexit and May looks more deranged by day.

Why not postpone the vote till 28th March at midnight and have "May Deal" or "No Deal" choice?
While no one knows if The People actually want any of them as they were not allowed to cast their vote on neither...

All that freaky mess just to replace EU workers by non EU workers and get bendy cucumbers?

How weaker, poorer country could be safer????

How that can improve NHS ???!

Where is BoJo and his glib answers to everything?

Will he tell people when prices of food go up by 20-40% to " eat cakes"?

Britain is led by selfishness, greed and naked ambitions of those who supposed to be serving the nation and are paid for it.

I would put the likes of BoJo to face tribunal and would have locked him up for lying, misleading and misselling , he is a fraud.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I would put the likes of BoJo to face tribunal and would have locked him up for lying, misleading and misselling , he is a fraud.


Like it or not, that is what has been lauded as a triumph of democracy in the UK.

And to think that one of the main arguments against the EU is that they are not democratic enough. Perhaps they should learn from us.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Like it or not, that is what has been lauded as a triumph of democracy in the UK.
> 
> And to think that one of the main arguments against the EU is that they are not democratic enough. Perhaps they should learn from us.


I am sure they learnt a lot from us...
How a group of self serving politicians sponsored by Russian oligarchs can effectively destroy any political order and damage economy and all in the name of the people.

Not the first time demagoguery leading the nation to disaster....

Sadly there are still people who think Britain after Brexit will be safer and more democratic....if no one believes any more it will be more prosperous...


----------



## Happy Paws2

She's put the parliamentary vote back again to the 12th March


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> I am sure they learnt a lot from us...
> How a group of self serving politicians sponsored by Russian oligarchs can effectively destroy any political order and damage economy and all in the name of the people.
> 
> Not the first time demagoguery leading the nation to disaster....
> 
> Sadly there are still people who think Britain after Brexit will be safer and more democratic....if no one believes any more it will be more prosperous...


Michael Gove on the BBC this morning denied that we would be worse off. Apparently his government's economic projections are always wrong, and they didn't take into account other actions the government could take to stop us being worse off, though he didn't give any clue as to what those actions might be.

I got the impression that he wasn't any sort of expert though, so he can presumably be trusted!


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> She's put the parliamentary vote back again to the 12th March


For crying out loud!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> For crying out loud!


meaning...


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> meaning...


 Crying out loud at May postponing .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Crying out loud at May postponing .


And the alternative is Corbyn!!!!
At the moment worried about the rights of jihadi bride....who is so disappointed Britain doesn't want her back.... but she happily equals Syria air strikes with terrorist attacks in UK.

When will Labour present a more balanced Shadow PM?
There are more sensible people there, please!!!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Now I know many in the Tory party wish to see the unemployed work for their benefits, but the elderly being forced to work for their pensions?
> 
> Had this been in the Guardian or Independent you'd have every right to dismiss this article, but the Tory supporting Telegraph?
> 
> There's no limits to what the Tories can do after Brexit. I wonder if they'll have the decency to provide blankets and wooly hats when being forced to pick farm fruit and veg?
> 
> View attachment 394602
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...Tw5BlcjyikOWyJ0q6egpZWh1NWWiCOe5r3M8B_8q-itAA


Don't you ever check the links you're posting?

Obviously not, otherwise you'd have noticed the Telegraph article you posted is from *2012* and therefore has sweet F.A to do with Brexit!


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Crying out loud at May postponing .


She can't just keep post postponing it.

The way she's going they'll voting after we have left, stupid woman


----------



## Magyarmum

grumpy goby said:


> Not being born until late 84 I have never known anything but the comfort of free movement  luckily it will probably only affect me in as many ways as the kiwi export market to the EU!


Neither have I and I'm old enough to be your grandmother!


----------



## cheekyscrip

The end of freedom of movement will be very hard here ... locked on 4 km square.
Supplies? Very limited choice of health care and vet care, workers need to come, traders need to sell, what about tourism, our big earner?

The prevailing sentiment is that Britain doesn’t care about our livelihoods one hoot.

I am actually preparing a supply of food for Garfield and Scrip as both needing special diet.
All that so EU workers can be replaced by non Eu workers ...
Instead of being part of EU being a vassal of USA
How many wars EU got us involved in?
Corruption in EU , in comparison to Putin’s ties to sponsors of ERG? Really????:Banghead


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> *Germany resists UK plea to resume arms sales to Saudi Arabia*
> Foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt raises issue at Brexit talks with German counterpart in Berlin
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-resume-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia?CMP=twt_gu
> 
> Good for them / How dare they; depending on your viewpoint.


https://www.dw.com/en/france-urges-germany-to-ease-arms-exports-rules-report/a-47662166

*France urges Germany to ease arms exports rules: report*

https://www.dw.com/en/airbus-chief-slams-germanys-saudi-arabia-arms-export-bans/a-47545975

*Airbus chief slams Germany's Saudi Arabia arms export bans*

How dare they!


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> The end of freedom of movement will be very hard here ... locked on 4 km square.
> Supplies? Very limited choice of health care and vet care, workers need to come, traders need to sell, what about tourism, our big earner?
> 
> The prevailing sentiment is that Britain doesn't care about our livelihoods one hoot.
> 
> I am actually preparing a supply of food for Garfield and Scrip as both needing special diet.
> All that so EU workers can be replaced by non Eu workers ...
> Instead of being part of EU being a vassal of USA
> How many wars EU got us involved in?
> Corruption in EU , in comparison to Putin's ties to sponsors of ERG? Really????:Banghead


My son's dog has a special diet. My daughter posts it to him once a month.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My son's dog has a special diet. My daughter posts it to him once a month.


I see you coming back here laden with cat and dog food plus parafernalia...


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I see you coming back here laden with cat and dog food plus parafernalia...


Via Africa at this rate. It'll be us in dinghies trying to sneak past the Spanish.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> She can't just keep post postponing it.
> 
> The way she's going they'll voting after we have left, stupid woman


If I was a gambler I'd put money on her postponing the next General Election in 2022 as well.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

They certainly fell for her pledge to stand down before the next election didn't they.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.dw.com/en/france-urges-germany-to-ease-arms-exports-rules-report/a-47662166
> 
> *France urges Germany to ease arms exports rules: report*
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/airbus-chief-slams-germanys-saudi-arabia-arms-export-bans/a-47545975
> 
> *Airbus chief slams Germany's Saudi Arabia arms export bans*
> 
> How dare they!


Absolutely reprehensible!. You post this yet you have nothing critical to say about the Tory governments complicity in the Saudi war?? Are you really engaging in whataboutism? Surely not  If so have you seen the catastrophe in Yemen? The slaughtered children? The famine? Our government are collaborators in this atrocity MM. How anyone could be proud of this embarrassment of a country anymore is beyond me.

.

,


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 394759


Its sounding more & more like a dictatorship to me!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely reprehensible!. You post this yet you have nothing critical to say about the Tory governments complicity in the Saudi war?? Are you really engaging in whataboutism? Surely not  If so have you seen the catastrophe in Yemen? The slaughtered children? The famine? Our government are collaborators in this atrocity MM. How anyone could be proud of this embarrassment of a country anymore is beyond me. .
> ,


Another figment of your fevered imagination and a good example of you manipulating and twisting things to suit you own agenda

As usual you've missed the point completely and put your own interpretation on it and made the post out to be something it isn't!

The post was a reply to @Arnie83. who'd posted an article about the UK complaining about the embargo on arms exports to Saudi Arabia.

My reply which was specifically directed to Arnie was merely to point out how hypocritical it was that Macron and Tom Enders of Airbus could complain about the same embargo without being ridiculed!

And as unlike you I don't suffer from verbal diarrhea, I didn't feel it was necessary to expand on the subject with all it's ramifications which is not to say I'm unaware of what is happening in Yemen or elsewhere!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely reprehensible!. You post this yet you have nothing critical to say about the Tory governments complicity in the Saudi war?? Are you really engaging in whataboutism? Surely not  If so have you seen the catastrophe in Yemen? The slaughtered children? The famine? Our government are collaborators in this atrocity MM. How anyone could be proud of this embarrassment of a country anymore is beyond me..
> 
> ,


Perhaps you should also read these links as other examples of the EU and USA's hypocricy

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...new-arms-export-rules-as-complaints-grow.html
*
Joint Armaments Projects: German-French Secret Paper Reorganises Arms Exports*

https://citizentruth.org/house-investigating-white-house-deal-to-give-saudi-arabia-nuclear-tech/

*House Investigating White House Deal to Give Saudi Arabia Nuclear Tech*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Another figment of your fevered imagination and a good example of you manipulating and twisting things to suit you own agenda
> 
> As usual you've missed the point completely and put your own interpretation on it and made the post out to be something it isn't!
> 
> The post was a reply to @Arnie83. who'd posted an article about the UK complaining about the embargo on arms exports to Saudi Arabia.
> 
> My reply which was specifically directed to Arnie was merely to point out hypocritical it was that Macron and Tom Enders of Airbus could complain about the same embargo without being ridiculed!
> 
> And as unlike you I don't suffer from verbal diarrhea, I didn't feel it was necessary to expand on the subject with all it's ramifications which is not to say I'm unaware of what is happening in Yemen or elsewhere!


I don't have an agenda. I just find it odd that you appear to be incapable of condemning the terrible actions of this cruel & corrupt government.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you should also read these links as other examples of the EU and USA's hypocricy
> 
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/200071/france,-germany-said-to-agree-new-arms-export-rules-as-complaints-grow.html
> *
> Joint Armaments Projects: German-French Secret Paper Reorganises Arms Exports*
> 
> https://citizentruth.org/house-investigating-white-house-deal-to-give-saudi-arabia-nuclear-tech/
> 
> *House Investigating White House Deal to Give Saudi Arabia Nuclear Tech*


I have no problem condemning their actions outright.


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> I don't have an agenda. I just find it odd that you appear to be incapable of condemning the terrible actions of this cruel & corrupt government.


This tory government, only has one agenda and that's to look after it's self and to hell with the country and the people who live in it, and as for the PM I have know idea where she coming from or where she thinks she's going.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I don't have an agenda.


Really....


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Really....


What is my agenda then Alex?


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> This tory government, only has one agenda and that's to look after it's self and to hell with the country and the people who live in it, and as for the PM I have know idea where she coming from or where she thinks she's going.


As its always been with the Selfservatives.

Think this sums May up. Theres something seriously wrong with the vile woman. "_*Shes not normal"*_


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> What is my agenda then Alex?


one of the definitions of agenda ; _the underlying intentions or motives of a particular person or group. 
_
Are you saying you've never had any underlying intentions or motives in your posts, to push the agenda of remaining in Europe?

To push an agenda, you must agree with it and hold some of its values, not all, therefore you have an agenda. That's not a bad thing, it's a bit like having an opinion. You're allowed one and it is made up of various other people's opinion but you can make it your own.


----------



## noushka05

Look @this @MilleD 



AlexPed2393 said:


> one of the definitions of agenda ; _the underlying intentions or motives of a particular person or group.
> _
> Are you saying you've never had any underlying intentions or motives in your posts, to push the agenda of remaining in Europe?
> 
> To push an agenda, you must agree with it and hold some of its values, not all, therefore you have an agenda. That's not a bad thing, it's a bit like having an opinion. You're allowed one and it is made up of various other people's opinion but you can make it your own.


But they aren't underlying intentions or motives are they though?. I've been open that I want to stay in the EU - as its clear there are no tangible benefits for leaving. Before the referendum I was open minded which way to vote, now its blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively brexit is a complete & utter disaster.


----------



## noushka05

Look at this @MilleD :Woot



*Tim Johns*‏Verified account @timoncheese
Alan Partridge just emailed everyone in the BBC.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Look @this @MilleD
> 
> But they aren't underlying intentions or motives are they though?. I've been open that I want to stay in the EU - as its clear there are no tangible benefits for leaving. Before the referendum I was open minded which way to vote, now its blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively its a complete & utter disaster.


You seem to think underlie means hidden.

_Underlie definition

2.
be the cause or basis of (something).
"the fundamental issue which underlies the conflict"
synonyms: fundamental, basic, basal, primary, prime, first, cardinal, central, principal, chief, key, elementary, elemental, rudimentary, root, intrinsic, essential
"he took issue with the underlying aims of the research"
_
@MilleD look at this?? I don't know why


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seem to think underlie means hidden.
> 
> _Underlie definition
> 
> 2.
> be the cause or basis of (something).
> "the fundamental issue which underlies the conflict"
> synonyms: fundamental, basic, basal, primary, prime, first, cardinal, central, principal, chief, key, elementary, elemental, rudimentary, root, intrinsic, essential
> "he took issue with the underlying aims of the research"
> _
> @MilleD look at this?? I don't know why


. Here is an example in Oxford Dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/agenda

The underlying intentions or motives of a particular person or group.
_'Miller has his own agenda and it has nothing to do with football'

......................................................._


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> . Here is an example in Oxford Dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/agenda
> 
> The underlying intentions or motives of a particular person or group.
> _'Miller has his own agenda and it has nothing to do with football'
> 
> ......................................................._


So we are both right. The word has many meanings and we can both find a sentence where it can fit what we want it to.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> as for the PM I have know idea where she coming from or where she thinks she's going.


Out of the EU hopefully. I'm still holding a little hope, not much but a little.

The other thing I hoped for seems to be happening, though I don't know yet if it will be significant or just the same old same old


----------



## Magyarmum

From Euronews 14.42 today

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/25/delaying-brexit-would-be-rational-solution-says-tusk

*Delaying Brexit would be 'rational solution', says Tusk*


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> As its always been with the Selfservatives.
> 
> Think this sums May up. Theres something seriously wrong with the vile woman. "_*Shes not normal"*_


This of course coming from a (former?) member of the Conservative Party as well.

Anna Soubry since leaving the Tories has been frighteningly frank about May's personality too.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> From Euronews 14.42 today
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/25/delaying-brexit-would-be-rational-solution-says-tusk
> 
> *Delaying Brexit would be 'rational solution', says Tusk*


Guess that puts the tin lid on that, then - we can't *possibly* be seen to do anything an EU bigwig would deem rational...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Guess that puts the tin lid on that, then - we can't *possibly* be seen to do anything an EU bigwig would deem rational...


A few minutes ago when I was listening to CNN News discussing Brexit the fellow who was talking said there seemed to be a large discrepancy between what Tusk and May had said. He also noted that Tusk appeared to be extremely tired.

So, this is is the press conference May held a few minutes after Tusk has spoken - see what you think!

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/25...ticle-50-isn-t-addressing-the-issues-may-says

*Watch: 'Any extension of Article 50 isn't addressing the issues', May says*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Another figment of your fevered imagination and a good example of you manipulating and twisting things to suit you own agenda
> 
> As usual you've missed the point completely and put your own interpretation on it and made the post out to be something it isn't!
> 
> The post was a reply to @Arnie83. who'd posted an article about the UK complaining about the embargo on arms exports to Saudi Arabia.
> 
> My reply which was specifically directed to Arnie was merely to point out how hypocritical it was that Macron and Tom Enders of Airbus could complain about the same embargo without being ridiculed!
> 
> And as unlike you I don't suffer from verbal diarrhea, I didn't feel it was necessary to expand on the subject with all it's ramifications which is not to say I'm unaware of what is happening in Yemen or elsewhere!


Just to make clear, which I didn't in the posts themselves, I posted about the UK attitude to arms to Saudi, and on the charging of a corrupt MP and on the promised imposition of tariffs to protect farmers not to show how awful the UK is, but to provide evidence for what I've said all along; that the EU is no worse (or better) than the UK is.

I've never bought into the claims (not yours I hasten to add) that the EU is unusually corrupt or protectionist or undemocratic, and cited those as valid reasons for leaving, since the facts simply don't back up the claims.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> So we are both right. The word has many meanings and we can both find a sentence where it can fit what we want it to.


 Not in the context of 'having an agenda' Alex.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Not in the context of 'having an agenda' Alex.


Having an agenda and having a hidden agenda are two different things. I said you have an agenda, not a hidden one.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.westmonster.com/uk-and-us-seal-post-brexit-deal-to-protect-multi-trillion-market/

*UK and US seal post-Brexit deal to protect multi-trillion market*


----------



## MollySmith

This from The Open University is very interesting. Prof Norman Clark is an economist and believes that austerity affected the opinion of leave or remain. I think it's a very interesting viewpoint that has a lot of sense





There is also a free Brexit course to help us understand it better. Probably very useful! 
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/soci...t-section-overview?active-tab=description-tab


----------



## Jonescat

Just up for air from the vast swamp of work created by this uncertainty - and I give up - here's a url - warning contains distressing images of a very smug politician currently sitting with his trotters up and murders a perfectly innocent song, but it made me chuckle (which is hard to do right now)


----------



## cheekyscrip

So what the new referendum be about?
Labour Brexit versus May Deal?
No Deal versus May Deal?
May Deal versus Remain?

No worries, this deranged woman will rather destroy the country than relinquish the control.
I really doubt she is sane, not that if she is reasonable.
Brexit is Brexit is Brexit is Brexit... incapable to listen, to compromise , to pay attention.

All is about control, her Deal or Die...


Labour is “ too little too late “...
Who whipped MPs to vote for Article 50 Mr Corbyn?
Yes, we all know May Deal and No Deal are disastrous.
Damage to our economy is done already and more to come.

Asking the nation to decide without telling them what is the “ know how” is totally irresponsible?

Who can lead the nation without a *** packet plan?

Can they all be FIRED???:Banghead


----------



## cheekyscrip

The fate of Chagos Islands - no one asked them who live there if they wanted to belong to Mauritius, but UN gave it to them.
Britain humiliated and isolated, commentators pointed to it as a result of Brexit.
Spain insisted on putting Gibraltar as “ British colony” to get the same result.


EU and UN would support Spain and Britain is very much on their own now.

How isolated and impoverished country could be safer and stronger?

May and ERG are leading this country to the abyss, how hard is to see it?

Britain is not an Empire and will never be one.
But we have so much to lose, especially we in Gibraltar who can lose our land and our livelihoods.


----------



## Elles

I'm sure I saw something on tv about chagos a while back. We kicked out the natives iirc and they want to go home.

I'll see if I can find the programme. I don't think it's anything like Gibraltar.

ETA https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0803890/


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Having an agenda and having a hidden agenda are two different things. I said you have an agenda, not a hidden one.


Fair enough Alex , it just felt as though I was being 'accused' of having an agenda, which I took to mean a hidden agenda when I'm very open about my motives.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I'm sure I saw something on tv about chagos a while back. We kicked out the natives iirc and they want to go home.
> 
> I'll see if I can find the programme. I don't think it's anything like Gibraltar.
> 
> ETA https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0803890/


You're right it's not quite the same s Gibraltar. The Ghagos Islands are British Indian Ocean Territories.

The Chagossians were removed from the islands in the late 60's, early 70's at the request of the US after the UK had permitted the island of Diego Garcia to be used by the Americans as a military base in the Indian Ocean,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Chagossians

My sons and I have been petitioning for years to allow the islanders to return to the Chagos Islands and the British Government has been taken to court many times. To transit the islands by yacht which my sons have done you need a visa which allows you to land and stay for a few days

https://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Chagos?rc=Formalities

Last week the UN Court ruled that the islands be returned to Mauritius and hopefully the islanders will soon be allowed to go home.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/25/asia/uk-chagos-mauritius-intl/index.html

*UN court orders UK to return Chagos Islands to Mauritius*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.westmonster.com/uk-and-us-seal-post-brexit-deal-to-protect-multi-trillion-market/
> 
> *UK and US seal post-Brexit deal to protect multi-trillion market*


Westmonster?

*Westmonster - Fascist Fake News*

As if the right-leaning part of the Web, that part of the political spectrum from centre-right through to partisan cheerleading to downright fake news and on to the ranting and paranoid conspiracy mongers, were not already full enough with sources claiming to be offering information, but instead providing nothing more that a variety of propagandising, yesterday brought yet another site vying for its place in the sun.

The new entrant is called _Westmonster_, and is bankrolled by Arron Banks, dodgy salesman of no discernible principle and provider of serious amounts of money to UKIP, especially when the party was being used as a self-publicity vehicle by Nigel "_Thirsty_" Farage. Banks is clearly unhappy with all those websites serving up information in a way that shows the Kippers in a less than favourable light.

That, of course, may be not unconnected to the inconvenient fact that many in UKIP are bigoted, racist, misogynist, intolerant and serially dishonest, this last certainly being true of Farage, as *Zelo Street*regulars will know. And the Kippers already have the convocation of the terminally batshit otherwise known as Breitbart to shill for them. But for Banks this is not enough: he wants his own hands on the throat of editorial control.

http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2017/01/westmonster-fascist-fake-news.html


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Westmonster?
> 
> *Westmonster - Fascist Fake News*
> 
> As if the right-leaning part of the Web, that part of the political spectrum from centre-right through to partisan cheerleading to downright fake news and on to the ranting and paranoid conspiracy mongers, were not already full enough with sources claiming to be offering information, but instead providing nothing more that a variety of propagandising, yesterday brought yet another site vying for its place in the sun.
> 
> The new entrant is called _Westmonster_, and is bankrolled by Arron Banks, dodgy salesman of no discernible principle and provider of serious amounts of money to UKIP, especially when the party was being used as a self-publicity vehicle by Nigel "_Thirsty_" Farage. Banks is clearly unhappy with all those websites serving up information in a way that shows the Kippers in a less than favourable light.
> 
> That, of course, may be not unconnected to the inconvenient fact that many in UKIP are bigoted, racist, misogynist, intolerant and serially dishonest, this last certainly being true of Farage, as *Zelo Street*regulars will know. And the Kippers already have the convocation of the terminally batshit otherwise known as Breitbart to shill for them. But for Banks this is not enough: he wants his own hands on the throat of editorial control.
> 
> http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2017/01/westmonster-fascist-fake-news.html


Now why did I expect a reply like that!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/

Home » WestMonster

*WestMonster*

_*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*

*These media sources are slightly to moderately conservative in bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor conservative causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Right-Center sources.*

*Factual Reporting: HIGH*

*Notes: WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes pro-Brexit news. There is little use of loaded language and all information is sourced. We classify WestMonster as right-center biased based on support for Brexit and endorsement of the right wing Tory political party. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017)*

*Source: http://www.westmonster.com/*


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Look at this @MilleD :Woot
> 
> 
> 
> *Tim Johns*‏Verified account @timoncheese
> Alan Partridge just emailed everyone in the BBC.


As long as he doesn't bring that other eejit back with him, then I'm fine with this :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

> UN court orders UK to return Chagos Islands to Mauritius


We should clearly leave the UN. We don't want some foreign court telling us what to do.

Sovereignty!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> We should clearly leave the UN. We don't want some foreign court telling us what to do.
> 
> Sovereignty!


What! Our Arnie being facetious? Perish the thought!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> We should clearly leave the UN. We don't want some foreign court telling us what to do.
> 
> Sovereignty!


From the news:

"As part of the advisory opinion the judges poignantly pointed out that all UN member states were under obligation to cooperate to complete the decolonisation of Mauritius. This includes, of course, the US, which operates a military base on the largest atoll of Diego Garcia."

And

"The UK Foreign Office said: "This is an advisory opinion, not a judgment."

It added it would look "carefully" at the detail of the opinion, which is not legally binding.

The UK has previously said it will hand the islands back to Mauritius when they are no longer required for defence purposes."

The highest court in the UN expresses an opinion, the U.K. and America say you're entitled to your opinion, but no. No threat to sovereignty there, so sorry, no comparison to the ECJ. 

If it compares to anything it's the referendum, which was also none binding and opinion.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> From the news:
> 
> "As part of the advisory opinion the judges poignantly pointed out that all UN member states were under obligation to cooperate to complete the decolonisation of Mauritius. This includes, of course, the US, which operates a military base on the largest atoll of Diego Garcia."
> 
> And
> 
> "The UK Foreign Office said: "This is an advisory opinion, not a judgment."
> 
> It added it would look "carefully" at the detail of the opinion, which is not legally binding.
> 
> The UK has previously said it will hand the islands back to Mauritius when they are no longer required for defence purposes."
> 
> The highest court in the UN expresses an opinion, the U.K. and America say you're entitled to your opinion, but no. No threat to sovereignty there, so sorry, no comparison to the ECJ.
> 
> If it compares to anything it's the referendum, which was also none binding and opinion.


And dare I add that it was the Labour Government under Harold Wilson who "gave" the islands away!

http://markcurtis.info/2007/02/12/the-depopulation-of-the-chagos-islands-1965-73/

*The depopulation of the Chagos Islands, 1965-73*


----------



## Elles

Of course my pointing out that the UN ruling is pretty meaningless and doesn’t compare to ecj rulings doesnt mean that I agree with how these people were and are treated. Our record and that of other wealthy, powerful countries, with weaker, less powerful countries who have something our powers want, is not exactly great.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> From the news:
> 
> "As part of the advisory opinion the judges poignantly pointed out that all UN member states were under obligation to cooperate to complete the decolonisation of Mauritius. This includes, of course, the US, which operates a military base on the largest atoll of Diego Garcia."
> 
> And
> 
> "The UK Foreign Office said: "This is an advisory opinion, not a judgment."
> 
> It added it would look "carefully" at the detail of the opinion, which is not legally binding.
> 
> The UK has previously said it will hand the islands back to Mauritius when they are no longer required for defence purposes."
> 
> The highest court in the UN expresses an opinion, the U.K. and America say you're entitled to your opinion, but no. No threat to sovereignty there, so sorry, no comparison to the ECJ.
> 
> If it compares to anything it's the referendum, which was also none binding and opinion.


Indeed, and I was, as @Magyarmum pointed out, being a tad facetious.

I suppose it's a bit like the blue passport thing, where one of our Brexiteer MP's felt "humiliated" every time he showed his "pink" passport, and denigrated the EU for its colour despite the UK not being bound by the EU call for homogeneity.


----------



## Arnie83

Clarification from the Labour party on their current position

*Sir Keir Starmer says second EU referendum should include Remain but not no-deal*

Labour wants a choice between "a credible Leave option" and Remain - with a public vote on the PM's deal if it passes.

https://news.sky.com/story/labours-...referendum-should-be-leave-vs-remain-11648505

For what it's worth, I still think this is unlikely and that May will somehow force her Deal through the Commons, though it will require some difficult to explain u-turns from a number of MPs.


----------



## Elles

Corbyn is now saying he will support a second referendum.

Says it in your link, sorry.  

I was watching the news.


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs May making a statement in the HOC at 12.30


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on the other Brexit forum. How true.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47373996

*Theresa May to offer MPs no-deal Brexit vote*


----------



## rona

Knew it was too good to be true.......


----------



## Jesthar

One small example of how the day to day things we don't even think about could become mind-boggling critical in the event of a no deal Brexit:

https://www.businessinsider.com/bre...u4Byprh2r-rERYah5UTd4lAQItwR0Se-n8gaY_E6J5hQw

The UK government is due to hold emergency talks with industry leaders today after discovering that the country doesn't have the right pallets to continue exporting goods to the European Union if it leaves without a deal next month.

Pallets are wooden or plastic structures which companies use to transport large volumes of goods. Under strict EU rules, pallets arriving from non-member states must be heat-treated or cleaned to prevent contamination, and have specific markings to confirm they meet a series of standards.

Most pallets currently used by British exporters do not conform to the rules which non-EU countries or "third countries" adhere to, as EU member states follow a much more relaxed set of regulations.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs last week told business leaders that the UK will not have enough EU-approved pallets for exporting to the continent if it leaves without a Withdrawal Agreement next month.

DEFRA has arranged for a conference call with various figures to take place on Tuesday morning to discuss the alarming pallet shortage, with just 31 days until Brexit day on March 29.

"It is the tiny, procedural, mundane-seeming stuff that will absolutely trip people up," one industry figure briefed by Theresa May's government told BI, adding that the country was "not even remotely ready" for no-deal.

Affected industry figures who were scheduled for talks with the government said they were baffled as to why it took ministers so long to realise the dearth of pallets, given that they are such a basic feature of cross-border trade.

One business figure told BI: "The point of transition was that it provided the two years we needed to get ready. Now we are trying to get ready in a few weeks. What sort of lunatic would do that?"


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> One business figure told BI: "The point of transition was that it provided the two years we needed to get ready. Now we are trying to get ready in a few weeks. What sort of lunatic would do that?"


This just sums up the whole process of it really


----------



## Elles

The most annoying thing is that these people who want to stay in the Eu, are leaving their parties, are calling for a second referendum, want a vote on no deal and think they know best, voted for us to have the referendum. If they thought leaving would be a disaster, they wouldn’t accept it and they’d fight against it, why vote in favour of giving us a vote? We can’t blame just the conservatives, it was all of them. unch

Now they are making it a disaster with delays and arguments and in fighting. Bunch of **** the lot of them, including the Eu. They’re all out for number one, if not number 10 for some of them. All we can do is watch them doing it.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Knew it was too good to be true.......


Unless you were hoping for No Deal, it doesn't mean very much.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Now why did I expect a reply like that!
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> _*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> *These media sources are slightly to moderately conservative in bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor conservative causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Right-Center sources.*
> 
> *Factual Reporting: HIGH*
> 
> *Notes: WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes pro-Brexit news. There is little use of loaded language and all information is sourced. We classify WestMonster as right-center biased based on support for Brexit and endorsement of the right wing Tory political party. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017)*
> 
> *Source: http://www.westmonster.com/*


Its perfectly obvious to anyone with their eyes open Westmonster is a nasty hate peddling propaganda site.

From your own link >> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/


*Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
*Detailed Report*
Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
Country: *United Kingdom*
World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*

_*History*_

_Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor._

_Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.

Home » WestMonster

*WestMonster*

*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?* *LET US KNOW HERE.*

Share:
FacebookTwitterGoogle+PinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare0
*







RIGHT BIAS*
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.

_


_

*Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
_
_*Detailed Report*
Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
Country: *United Kingdom*
World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*

*History*

Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor.

Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.

*Funded by / Ownership*

Westmonster is co-owned by Arron Banks and Michael Heaver, former press adviser to Nigel Farage. Banks was previously one of the largest donors to the conservative UK Independence Party (UKIP) and bankrolled Nigel Farage's campaign to leave the EU. The website is funded through donations and online advertising.

*Analysis / Bias*

In review, *WestMonster is a strongly right learning news website that favors Brexit and has connections to both the Conservative Party and the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Articles typically contain loaded emotional headlines such as this: Jailed Peterborough MP 'could leave prison today under early release scheme'. This article sources to the Questionable Daily Mail, which has a terrible track record with fact checking and sensationalism. WestMonster holds anti-immigration positions as well as anti-EU sentiments. WestMonster also holds a favorable opinion of Donald Trump. In general, all stories favor the right and denigrate the Labor Party (Left). Although they primarily link to credible known sources, they sometimes use sources that are strongly right biased or Questionable.*

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check by an IFCN Fact Checker.

Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the* promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes*. We also rate them *Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks*. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017) Updated (2/26/2019)

Source: http://www.westmonster.com/

_



MilleD said:


> As long as he doesn't bring that other eejit back with him, then I'm fine with this :Hilarious


Helloooo


----------



## noushka05

People who still want brexit don't give a damn about our already crippled NHS. Here is the latest from the Lancet,

*The Lancet*‏Verified account @TheLancet 8h8 hours ago
_New Health Policy analysis: #Brexit will cause significant harm to the #NHS, but No-Deal Brexit presents by far the worst option https://hubs.ly/H0gMJll0_


----------



## emmaviolet

Was just searching for the post as SWC had said that no deal was off the table, but that's no longer true.

Couldn't find the post, but found that SWC was now a banned member.


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Was just searching for the post as SWC had said that no deal was off the table, but that's no longer true.
> 
> Couldn't find the post, but found that SWC was now a banned member.


SWC was wrong; it was never off the table. Hopefully it soon will be.


----------



## Arnie83

As things stand now, it seems to me that there is now a clear end-game.

If the March 12/13/14 votes go as expected - No to May's Deal, No to No Deal and Yes to an extension - what happens then?

May has offered a short, two month extension. Critically, there is no plan to take part in the EU elections for new MEP's.

And that means that the 2 months is an immovable deadline, because no further extension of the status quo is available without our participation.

But 2 months is not enough time for a new Referendum, a General Election, and way too short for a renegotiation along Norway +/-, Canada ++(etc), or Corbyn's unicorn lines. So not only can it only be for more can-kicking, but come the end of it, the only choice remaining on the Parliamentary table is May's Deal. Our MP's have absolutely nowhere else to go.

Unless the Commons force May to prepare for EU elections very soon indeed, they ARE eventually going to accept her Deal.

Watch this space.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> Was just searching for the post as SWC had said that no deal was off the table, but that's no longer true.
> 
> Couldn't find the post, but found that SWC was now a banned member.


Oh dear That's strange. He left to take a break , he wasn't banned at the time. I wonder what happened .

@Arnie83 It feels like this nightmare will never end 

There's been so much about Bexit I cant even take in whats happening now.
I read the words and the page blurs and its like blah blah blah.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Its perfectly obvious to anyone with their eyes open Westmonster is a nasty hate peddling propaganda site.
> 
> From your own link >> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> 
> *Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
> *Detailed Report*
> Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
> Country: *United Kingdom*
> World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*
> 
> _*History*_
> 
> _Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor._
> 
> _Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> *Has this Media Source failed a fact check?* *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> Share:
> FacebookTwitterGoogle+PinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare0
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT BIAS*
> These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> *Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
> _
> _*Detailed Report*
> Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
> Country: *United Kingdom*
> World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*
> 
> *History*
> 
> Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor.
> 
> Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.
> 
> *Funded by / Ownership*
> 
> Westmonster is co-owned by Arron Banks and Michael Heaver, former press adviser to Nigel Farage. Banks was previously one of the largest donors to the conservative UK Independence Party (UKIP) and bankrolled Nigel Farage's campaign to leave the EU. The website is funded through donations and online advertising.
> 
> *Analysis / Bias*
> 
> In review, *WestMonster is a strongly right learning news website that favors Brexit and has connections to both the Conservative Party and the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Articles typically contain loaded emotional headlines such as this: Jailed Peterborough MP 'could leave prison today under early release scheme'. This article sources to the Questionable Daily Mail, which has a terrible track record with fact checking and sensationalism. WestMonster holds anti-immigration positions as well as anti-EU sentiments. WestMonster also holds a favorable opinion of Donald Trump. In general, all stories favor the right and denigrate the Labor Party (Left). Although they primarily link to credible known sources, they sometimes use sources that are strongly right biased or Questionable.*
> 
> A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check by an IFCN Fact Checker.
> 
> Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the* promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes*. We also rate them *Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks*. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017) Updated (2/26/2019)
> 
> Source: http://www.westmonster.com/
> 
> _
> 
> Helloooo


Despite all your ranting and raving, the article I posted is accurate!

https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-r...-continuity-derivatives-trading-and-clearing-
post-brexit

*Joint statement by UK and US authorities on continuity of derivatives trading *
*and clearing post-Brexit*

https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/key-institutions/fca-financial-conduct-authority/

*What Is The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA)?*


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> This just sums up the whole process of it really


As does this:


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> As does this:


And this????


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Despite all your ranting and raving, the article I posted is accurate!
> 
> https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-r...-continuity-derivatives-trading-and-clearing-
> post-brexit
> 
> *Joint statement by UK and US authorities on continuity of derivatives trading *
> *and clearing post-Brexit*
> 
> https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/key-institutions/fca-financial-conduct-authority/
> 
> *What Is The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA)?*


I'm not the one ranting MM. I'm actually very grateful you referenced the media fact checking site in your attempt to try to verify Westmonster as a credible source of reference. It gave me an opportunity to ask them to reassess Westmonster, As they are a USA based organisation they clearly didn't know WM is a outlet for nasty right wing racist propaganda & it took them a very short time indeed to reach a very different conclusion & change their ratings. Westmoster is not somewhere I would ever go to for information & I will not fall for their clickbait by clicking on the site without good reason, thank you.

Not just this country, but the world is the mess its in because masses of people are unable to differentiate between reliable sources of information & propaganda.

You accused me of having an agenda, well my agenda is transparent, its exposing those who DO have an agenda. A very sinister agenda. Discredited sources like Westmonster, Daily Mail, the Express, Sun etc have a very clear agenda to whip up hatred of the EU & 'foreigners', the people behind them want brexit for their own sinister aims. I'll continue to expose duplicitous liars like Redwood, Hannan, Mogg, Farage ...........

.............Arron Banks ..... the man behind Westmonster - behind brexit!


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Was just searching for the post as SWC had said that no deal was off the table, but that's no longer true.
> 
> Couldn't find the post, but found that SWC was now a banned member.


I've been thinking about you Emma, how are you doing now? Hope you're feeling much better x

Has SWC doppelganger been banned as well?


----------



## noushka05

He does have a point


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> As things stand now, it seems to me that there is now a clear end-game.
> 
> If the March 12/13/14 votes go as expected - No to May's Deal, No to No Deal and Yes to an extension - what happens then?
> 
> May has offered a short, two month extension. Critically, there is no plan to take part in the EU elections for new MEP's.
> 
> And that means that the 2 months is an immovable deadline, because no further extension of the status quo is available without our participation.
> 
> But 2 months is not enough time for a new Referendum, a General Election, and way too short for a renegotiation along Norway +/-, Canada ++(etc), or Corbyn's unicorn lines. So not only can it only be for more can-kicking, but come the end of it, the only choice remaining on the Parliamentary table is May's Deal. Our MP's have absolutely nowhere else to go.
> 
> Unless the Commons force May to prepare for EU elections very soon indeed, they ARE eventually going to accept her Deal.
> 
> Watch this space.


Ian Dunt has been very good, take a look at his latest article on the situation Arnie. Looks like Theresa May is tricking us. I think Robert Peston has come to the same conclusion.

*David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 15h15 hours ago
_There's a lot of guff and hot air in Parliament. If you want to understand what's really going on with Brexit and May's shocking strategy to get her deal through,

read this.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...0-extension-is-a-trick-to-take-us-to-the-real

.............
_


----------



## Calvine

“If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.”

(Supposedly attributed to Mark Twain.)


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Ian Dunt has been very good, take a look at his latest article on the situation Arnie. Looks like Theresa May is tricking us. I think Robert Peston has come to the same conclusion.
> 
> *David Lammy*‏Verified account @DavidLammy 15h15 hours ago
> _There's a lot of guff and hot air in Parliament. If you want to understand what's really going on with Brexit and May's shocking strategy to get her deal through,
> 
> read this.
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...0-extension-is-a-trick-to-take-us-to-the-real
> 
> ............._


The thing is, if Mr Dunt (and I!) can see this, then the rest of the EU leaders can see it too. And if May comes to them asking for a 3 month extension, they are going to ask her what it's for.

They won't be minded to give her time just to keep asking for impossible changes to the backstop. They may say it's extend to December 2020 or nothing.

And of course the likes of Benn and Grieve will know this just as well, so should pre-empt the scenario with motions of their own, starting tonight. We shall see!

Of course, if we are not granted an extension, then the only way to stop a No Deal Brexit is for the UK unilaterally to revoke Article 50. Would they do that, I wonder ...


----------



## StormyThai

kimthecat said:


> Oh dear That's strange. He left to take a break , he wasn't banned at the time. I wonder what happened .


Without divulging too much he is still here and able to log in


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> Of course, if we are not granted an extension, then the only way to stop a No Deal Brexit is for the UK unilaterally to revoke Article 50. Would they do that, I wonder ...


It's beginning to feel like the only sensible option. If May is just going to keep pushing her deal unchanged and MPs vote against a no deal.


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> It's beginning to feel like the only sensible option. If May is just going to keep pushing her deal unchanged and MPs vote against a no deal.


What are the legal ramifications around revoking Article 50?
One thing I am sure of is that there is going to be HUGE inquest into MP behaviour etc. from both sides of the argument in how they dealt with Brexit


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> What are the legal ramifications around revoking Article 50?
> One thing I am sure of is that there is going to be HUGE inquest into MP behaviour etc. from both sides of the argument in how they dealt with Brexit


The ECJ have ruled that we can unilaterally do so, so there are no legal ramifications. We just call it off and carry on as EU members.

The ramifications here would be .... interesting!


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> I've been thinking about you Emma, how are you doing now? Hope you're feeling much better x
> 
> Has SWC doppelganger been banned as well?


Thanks Noush, I'm so much better now thank you. I just have to see what we're going to do treatment wise now. I'm difficult to medicate and it's something that's going to happen every month, so it's awkward. But I'm so much better for now though.

I know who you mean  but I'm not sure.....


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> The ECJ have ruled that we can unilaterally do so, so there are no legal ramifications. We just call it off and carry on as EU members.
> 
> The ramifications here would be .... interesting!


The ramifications here are going to be interesting whatever happens. Already seen a few (off the record) reports that some EU companies are already closing their books to UK orders, on the grounds that if a no deal Brexit goes ahead they can't guarantee to be able to deliver them on time and on cost. Whether or not they'll reopen the books is unknown - probably depends on whether or not the customs union remains for some.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

StormyThai said:


> Without divulging too much he is still here and able to log in


 Thanks for letting me know . Last I heard he was on holiday with his dad .


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> If I've understood this correctly how can May's deal be regarded as the, "Only sensible option", seeing most Brexiters and Remainer's are so against it for obviously very different reasons?
> 
> The only sensible option would be for the vile xenophobe to resign.
> 
> Give her what she wants and expect her still to be PM in ten years time which is too horrible to contemplate.


Yeah, you completely misread what I typed.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Yeah, you completely misread what I typed.


OK. My apologies.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> OK. My apologies.


I was replying to Arnie's comment about revoking article 50.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/wto-agreement/59858/

*WTO agreement secures £1.3 trillion market for UK contractors*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/wto-agreement/59858/
> 
> *WTO agreement secures £1.3 trillion market for UK contractors*


It will (would) be interesting to see if we win as many of the contracts as we do now, and on what terms. But at least the opportunity is still there.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.scotsman.com/business/m...projects-including-forties-pipeline-1-4880364

*Ineos to invest £1bn in UK projects including Forties Pipeline*


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It will (would) be interesting to see if we win as many of the contracts as we do now, and on what terms. But at least the opportunity is still there.


The question is, will it be anything as much to cover the losses that the UK would be losing through EU trade deals such as the recent one in Japan?, that I doubt very much.

Then pro-Brexit sources would consider a Paperboy as full time employment.

It's putting the UK's future on a roulette wheel. Even if some success comes from this will Joe Bloggs benefit? Certainly not!


----------



## KittenKong

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...dance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The question is, will it be anything as much to cover the losses that the UK would be losing through EU trade deals such as the recent one in Japan?, that I doubt very much.
> 
> Then pro-Brexit sources would consider a Paperboy as full time employment.
> 
> It's putting the UK's future on a roulette wheel. Even if some success comes from this will Joe Bloggs benefit? Certainly not!


I don't like to sound as though I'm denigrating the good news stories about investment and opportunity, but the fact is that what most, if not all, of them are saying is that 'it could be worse'. No-one (sensible) has ever suggested that the UK will stop trading and getting contracts and attracting investment; just that Brexit will reduce them.

Trade is obvious - we will trade less with the EU because it will be more expensive and competitors within the EU will get an advantage. Investment is already reduced by about 20% (a study by Sussex Uni which seems to me very thorough; other estimates have it down more). Liam Fox has signed 6 of 40 roll-over deals with the likes of the Faroe Islands. New trade deals, which we can't even negotiate yet, will bring between 0.3 and 0.7% of GDP according to governmental figures, much less than any sort of Brexit will cost us, and even that 0.7% would require concessions to the US on standards and access.

Investment will remain below the EU member flight path because we are simply less attractive through our restricted access to the Single Market. It might well stay healthy compared to other countries, even those within the EU, but it will be less than otherwise, unless the government turn us into a low cost tax haven, which has consequences.

Opportunity is good, but that story (above) gives us only what we already have - we don't gain anything from it. And we may lose as those handing out the contracts will drive a harder bargain knowing that our companies now have less access to the EU and are more reliant on contracts elsewhere.

There isn't very much economically that might actually improve because of Brexit. The 'good news' stories just point to welcome mitigation of the damage.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/merkel-brexit-115.html

*Merkel and Macron are giving London more time*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.scotsman.com/business/m...projects-including-forties-pipeline-1-4880364
> 
> *Ineos to invest £1bn in UK projects including Forties Pipeline*


We're heading for climate catastrophe, this is great news! God help our children & grandchildren.


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Thanks Noush, I'm so much better now thank you. I just have to see what we're going to do treatment wise now. I'm difficult to medicate and it's something that's going to happen every month, so it's awkward. But I'm so much better for now though.
> 
> I know who you mean  but I'm not sure.....


I'm really pleased to hear this x I do hope they can find you something to keep the pain at bay when you need something x



Magyarmum said:


> https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/wto-agreement/59858/
> 
> *WTO agreement secures £1.3 trillion market for UK contractors*


Yet another reality check. WTO terms are CRAP.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073221524545363973*Debunking WTO*, and what "trading on WTO terms" really means...

As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties.

Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. 1/26

Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens' rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. 2/26

On Brexit Day, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. The treaties are gone in a flash, as if we'd fed them into a shredder. (That's not the EU being vindictive, it'sjust how the Article 50 process works.) Even *if* we have a transition period 3/26

the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. 4/26

Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules 5/2

designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. 6/26

In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kickaround in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. 7/26

Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then 8/26

pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers 9/2

have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs.

WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero 10/26

f we want to. But that's when the WTO "most favoured nation" rule kicks in.

"Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever, because what it really means is that *we* are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. 11/26

So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages.

But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the 12/26

tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet.

That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. 13/26

You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. 14/26

But that's only half the picture. We have no control over other countries' import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we're trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO 15/26

demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less 16/2

competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost?

Short answer: they won't. 17/26

But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs.

However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. 18/26

The idea is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK.

It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive 19/26

for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse.

And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect 20/26

by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs.

If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2

Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements.

We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. 22/26

*So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either:

A) Don't understand what that means or

B) Are lying to you *

For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it 23/26

it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit.

In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? 24/26

In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be.

Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash.

But unlike the crash, we'd be willingly 25/2

inflicting the pain on ourselves.

*And the ultimate end result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. *

WTO: just say no! 26/26


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/merkel-brexit-115.html
> 
> *Merkel and Macron are giving London more time*


As we have mentioned ...

"Macron said that Britain needed to give a clear justification for an extension. "It's time for the British to make a decision." The problems around the Brexit would not be solved by a delay. It was agreed that the agreement could not be renegotiated if the British needed more time."​
We can have more time, but not simply to keep talking. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the implication (and pretty much the fact) is that if May's deal can't get through Parliament, the decision must be made by the people.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> _
> _
> 
> Helloooo


Ah [email protected] 

:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> As we have mentioned ...
> 
> "Macron said that Britain needed to give a clear justification for an extension. "It's time for the British to make a decision." The problems around the Brexit would not be solved by a delay. It was agreed that the agreement could not be renegotiated if the British needed more time."​
> We can have more time, but not simply to keep talking. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the implication (and pretty much the fact) is that if May's deal can't get through Parliament, the decision must be made by the people.


That's how I read it when I saw the story.


----------



## Arnie83

Anyone focusing on lower migration as the main benefit from Brexit ...

*UK migration: Rise in net migration from outside EU*

Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has hit its highest level for 15 years, says the Office for National Statistics.

Figures show 261,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in the year ending September 2018 - the highest since 2004.

In contrast, net migration from EU countries has continued to fall to a level last seen in 2009.

In the year to September, a total of 627,000 people moved to the UK and 345,000 people left the UK - a net migration of 283,000.​
So unless I'm reading that wrong, net migration from the EU was 22,000. Non-EU 261,000. So much for the tens of thousands government target.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I'm really pleased to hear this x I do hope they can find you something to keep the pain at bay when you need something x
> 
> Yet another reality check. WTO terms are CRAP.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073221524545363973*Debunking WTO*, and what "trading on WTO terms" really means...
> 
> As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties.
> 
> Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. 1/26
> 
> Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens' rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. 2/26
> 
> On Brexit Day, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. The treaties are gone in a flash, as if we'd fed them into a shredder. (That's not the EU being vindictive, it'sjust how the Article 50 process works.) Even *if* we have a transition period 3/26
> 
> the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. 4/26
> 
> Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules 5/2
> 
> designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. 6/26
> 
> In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kickaround in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. 7/26
> 
> Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then 8/26
> 
> pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers 9/2
> 
> have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs.
> 
> WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero 10/26
> 
> f we want to. But that's when the WTO "most favoured nation" rule kicks in.
> 
> "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever, because what it really means is that *we* are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. 11/26
> 
> So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages.
> 
> But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the 12/26
> 
> tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet.
> 
> That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. 13/26
> 
> You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. 14/26
> 
> But that's only half the picture. We have no control over other countries' import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we're trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO 15/26
> 
> demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less 16/2
> 
> competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost?
> 
> Short answer: they won't. 17/26
> 
> But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs.
> 
> However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. 18/26
> 
> The idea is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK.
> 
> It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive 19/26
> 
> for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse.
> 
> And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect 20/26
> 
> by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs.
> 
> If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2
> 
> Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements.
> 
> We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. 22/26
> 
> *So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either:
> 
> A) Don't understand what that means or
> 
> B) Are lying to you *
> 
> For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it 23/26
> 
> it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit.
> 
> In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? 24/26
> 
> In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be.
> 
> Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash.
> 
> But unlike the crash, we'd be willingly 25/2
> 
> inflicting the pain on ourselves.
> 
> *And the ultimate end result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. *
> 
> WTO: just say no! 26/26


Another example of you twisting something to suit your own ends!

Had you read the article properly you's see it only confirms that the UK will be able to* continue* to bid for contracts as before. It says nothing about the UK trading solely under WTO rules as you imply!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Anyone focusing on lower migration as the main benefit from Brexit ...
> 
> *UK migration: Rise in net migration from outside EU*
> 
> Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has hit its highest level for 15 years, says the Office for National Statistics.
> 
> Figures show 261,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in the year ending September 2018 - the highest since 2004.
> 
> In contrast, net migration from EU countries has continued to fall to a level last seen in 2009.
> 
> In the year to September, a total of 627,000 people moved to the UK and 345,000 people left the UK - a net migration of 283,000.​
> So unless I'm reading that wrong, net migration from the EU was 22,000. Non-EU 261,000. So much for the tens of thousands government target.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


I wonder who the none Eu migrants are? Friends and relatives racing to get here before the door is closed maybe?

We haven't left yet.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Another example of you twisting something to suit your own ends!
> 
> Had you read the article properly you's see it only confirms that the UK will be able to* continue* to bid for contracts as before. It says nothing about the UK trading solely under WTO rules as you imply!


But I wasn't implying that . I was pointing out how crap WTO terms are compared to what we have now, so stop twisting something to suit your own ends ompus


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Anyone focusing on lower migration as the main benefit from Brexit ...
> 
> *UK migration: Rise in net migration from outside EU*
> 
> Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has hit its highest level for 15 years, says the Office for National Statistics.
> 
> Figures show 261,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in the year ending September 2018 - the highest since 2004.
> 
> In contrast, net migration from EU countries has continued to fall to a level last seen in 2009.
> 
> In the year to September, a total of 627,000 people moved to the UK and 345,000 people left the UK - a net migration of 283,000.​
> So unless I'm reading that wrong, net migration from the EU was 22,000. Non-EU 261,000. So much for the tens of thousands government target.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


I'm praying we do a trade deal with a Turkey & we will be forced to accept freedom of movement


----------



## noushka05

I'd like to say I'm shocked......

*Jon Trickett*‏: _These figures reveal a party paid for by the rich and powerful, with apparent links to repressive regimes, tax avoiders and arms dealers._


*Revealed: Wife of former Vladimir Putin minister is major Tory party donor The Conservative Party received hundreds of thousands from a woman with ties to the Russian president*

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/who-funds-conservative-party-donor-russia-vladimir-putin-link/


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I wonder who the none Eu migrants are? Friends and relatives racing to get here before the door is closed maybe?
> 
> We haven't left yet.


That's an awful thing to say. Such is the attitude of so many, especially since the Brexit vote.

Not helped by this sort of thing.


----------



## noushka05

Corrupt to the core.

*Stephen Kinnock*‏Verified account @SKinnock
Stephen Kinnock Retweeted Alex Wickham

And could this be why the UK government is dragging its feet on drawing up a target list for the #Magnitsy Act, I wonder...? @Billbrowder

*Alex Wickham*‏Verified account @alexwickham
_The Tories accepted £146,750 of donations in November and December from Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of one of Putin's former ministers, eight months after the Skripal poisonings. She donated another £100,000 to the party in March._

_The Tories also received £150,000 from Ann Said in October. She's the wife of Syrian-born former arms dealer Wafic Said, a family friend of Bashar Assad, who has been banned from donating because he is tax resident in Monaco_

_Meanwhile Sherry Funeral Directors has donated £5,000 to Theresa May's Conservative association in Maidenhead._


----------



## KittenKong

Right, 2% apparently trust Theresa May in this poll.

Enough to give her a mandate no doubt.


----------



## noushka05

*Adam Payne*‏Verified account @adampayne26
HM_G is about to roll out no-deal Brexit TV ads, *"alerting people about steps they need to take to be ready for leaving the EU,*" PM's spokesperson confirms. No details yet on when to expect the first ad, how frequent they'll be, and how much they have cost the taxpayer.

_
James Felton
_
2016: 
Project fear!

2019: 
"Board up your windows. 
A filled bathtub can supply adequate drinking water for a family for a week. 
The following pets are edible-"

_

*David Schneider*‏

2014: A man eats a bacon sandwich badly.

2019: "Protect and Survive"

.........


----------



## Elles

No it's not an awful thing to say, @KittenKong that's your mind. People having to rush here before the door is slammed in their face and they never get the chance, or worried that they won't get to see their friends and relatives here again and it was a question, not a statement. We haven't left yet, ie there might not be much time. Wth has Tommy Robinson got to do with it?

I have had 2 people here on ignore for a while now. I just unignored to see what was said about my question. It is a lot more peaceful and a loss less scrolling. If someone else questions my motives, I'll answer them, but much though I hate to do it and it means I miss discussions in other threads, I can't bear it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I wonder who the none Eu migrants are? Friends and relatives racing to get here before the door is closed maybe?
> 
> We haven't left yet.


Looks like the door is only closing on EU nationals. The flood gates are open for the rest of the world. I hope they're all Muslims


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Right, 2% apparently trust Theresa May in this poll.
> 
> Enough to give her a mandate no doubt.
> 
> View attachment 395211


In fairness, if that was a poll for people who follow that particular group, the result is hardly surprising.


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> In fairness, if that was a poll for people who follow that particular group, the result is hardly surprising.


Talk about preaching to the choir


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> In fairness, if that was a poll for people who follow that particular group, the result is hardly surprising.


Not necessarily. The group are open as far as I'm aware.

I'd be surprised if any Brexit supporters enlisted their support for May. As far as I'm aware many of them detest May just as much as many remainers do.


----------



## noushka05

Better start praying you or a loved one dont fall sick.

Health
*The Tory plan for no-deal medical shortages is staggeringly negligent*

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford
_This from jolyon Maugham on the very real threat of Brexit medicines shortages is spot on. DHSC govuk secrecy, gagging orders & disingenuousness are outrageous_

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/27/tory-plans-no-deal-brexit-medical-shortages


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I'd be surprised if any Brexit supporters enlisted their support for May. As far as I'm aware many of them detest May just as much as many remainers do.


She's not very high on anyone's list at the moment. Shown herself to be a bit of a stubborn old goat


----------



## noushka05

Andrea Loathsome is not only think as a plank but evil to boot!

*David Lammy*‏: _ We live in dangerous times. The leader of the house of commons is prepared to stunt the economy by up to 9%, to impoverish millions and to rundown public services, all to suit an Eurosceptic, anti-migrant ideology. This government of vandals must be held to account

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100836491176087552_


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Anyone focusing on lower migration as the main benefit from Brexit ...
> 
> *UK migration: Rise in net migration from outside EU*
> 
> Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has hit its highest level for 15 years, says the Office for National Statistics.
> 
> Figures show 261,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in the year ending September 2018 - the highest since 2004.
> 
> In contrast, net migration from EU countries has continued to fall to a level last seen in 2009.
> 
> In the year to September, a total of 627,000 people moved to the UK and 345,000 people left the UK - a net migration of 283,000.​
> So unless I'm reading that wrong, net migration from the EU was 22,000. Non-EU 261,000. So much for the tens of thousands government target.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679


 This is non news really . I saw this on the news this morning . EU people leaving or not coming because of Brexit. Non EU immigration has always been higher . The rest of the world is bigger than the EU ! There's all sorts of variables . Students coming to study etc.

We're part of a Commonwealth , if people meet the rules they're entitled to come here as much as people from the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> This is non news really . I saw this on the news this morning . EU people leaving or not coming because of Brexit. Non EU immigration has always been higher . The rest of the world is bigger than the EU ! There's all sorts of variables . Students coming to study etc.
> 
> We're part of a Commonwealth , if people meet the rules they're entitled to come here as much as people from the EU.


I think what makes it news, and Brexit related, is that the government is supposed to be committed to bringing migration down to the tens of thousands, and non-EU migration - over which they already have control - is nearer 300,000 on its own and at a 15 year high. That should give pause to those who think that Brexit is going to see immigration falling to level that they deem acceptable. Especially as the government has assured businesses that migration will be allowed in such numbers as not to cause them any harm.

It's another Brexit promise that isn't going to be delivered, and should make at least a few people wonder whether it really is all worth it.

Though now that May's suspicion that thousands and thousands of students illegally overstayed their welcome has been proven false.I don't know why she won't allow them to remove student figures from the total. I'm beginning to suspect she is rather stubborn in the light of changing facts.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> This is non news really . I saw this on the news this morning . EU people leaving or not coming because of Brexit. Non EU immigration has always been higher . The rest of the world is bigger than the EU ! There's all sorts of variables . Students coming to study etc.
> 
> We're part of a Commonwealth , if people meet the rules they're entitled to come here as much as people from the EU.


*Alex Andreou*‏:

_Net migration at same level as before referendum; EU migration lowest in ten years. Non-EU migration highest in fifteen years, on today's @ONS figures.

Huh. It's almost as if those Brexiters sold you a lie and "control" doesn't change how many extra people the UK economy needs._


----------



## cheekyscrip

Just as predicted before referendum... EU workers will go, but as workforce is needed and trade deals needed visas for Non EU national are given more readily so basically at a cost of bringing down UK economy we replace European workers with the rest of the world...
Do you really think that people from Europe are so much worse than say from Africa or Asia?


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> But I wasn't implying that . I was pointing out how crap WTO terms are compared to what we have now, so stop twisting something to suit your own ends ompus


*{QUOTE} "If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2"*

*"Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements."{QUOTE}
*
What I can't understand is why, instead of making your point using a credible source such as Just Foods for example, you prefer to quote an opinion from one of your twitter cronies that few of us have ever heard of!

https://www.just-food.com/analysis/...n-for-the-uk-eu-food-industries_id140771.aspx

*No-deal Brexit - what would trading under WTO rules mean for the UK, EU food industries?*










Confused.com
*
*


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Not necessarily. The group are open as far as I'm aware.
> 
> I'd be surprised if any Brexit supporters enlisted their support for May. As far as I'm aware many of them detest May just as much as many remainers do.


I'm sure it is, I'm just making comment about the traffic to the site.

Don't get me wrong - I think she's full of hoohar.


----------



## Magyarmum

Just received this in my inbox. I should add that I order goods from companies such as Petplanet, Viovet, The Book Depository and Real Foods to name a few and none of them have notified me saying there will be a problem after Brexit No problem either with carriers such as DPD!

All your Brexit questions answered
Yahoo/Inbox

View this email in your browser









 Register to redeem points








Shop Now Brit Kits Books Extra Points Sweets Easter
​

*Will British Corner Shop still exist after Brexit?*

Of course! Regardless of a deal or no deal outcome, we'll continue to trade. It's worth mentioning that we already trade with the rest of the world without any problems.

*Will your pricing go up?*

We are and always will be committed to keeping any price impact to a minimum. There are currently costs associated with exporting to Europe, which for example, if replaced with a customs charge - may just cancel each other out.

If we do see prices increase from suppliers, then we may have to pass these on to customers. However, if the pound weakens after Brexit - then you may see a price decrease when ordering in Euros!

*Will you still be able to deliver to Europe?*

We certainly will! We're confident in the contingency plans that our courier partners have undertaken to minimise disruption to their customer's supply chain. These plans include; Enhancement of infrastructure and systems sustained delivery of service levels and customer and government support during the transition.

*Should I expect longer delivery periods post-Brexit *

Not at all, they will be equivalent to now. If I live outside of the EU will I see any changes to the service? No, it will be business as usual!

*Will there be a customs charge?*

Yes, there may be a customs charge. We are still waiting to see what happens with the Political deal. In a no-deal scenario, there would be customs charges. We may decide to use a DDP (Delivery Duty Paid) approach and pay these customs charges on behalf of the customer at the point of dispatch, meaning no financial impact involved when shopping with us.

*Will there be changes in your product selection *

We don't envisage any restriction in the range we offer post-Brexit - so you'll still be able to shop your British favourites with ease.

*How are British Corner Shop planning on handling Brexit?*

We have undertaken extensive scenario planning and have our systems and processes ready to handle a range of possible outcomes.

Our key courier partners have reassured us that their Brexit planning is comprehensive enough to deal with any predicted changes.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Just received this in my inbox. I should add that I order goods from companies such as Petplanet, Viovet, The Book Depository and Real Foods to name a few and none of them have notified me saying there will be a problem after Brexit No problem either with carriers such as DPD!
> 
> All your Brexit questions answered
> Yahoo/Inbox
> 
> View this email in your browser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Register to redeem points
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shop Now Brit Kits Books Extra Points Sweets Easter
> ​
> 
> *Will British Corner Shop still exist after Brexit?*
> 
> Of course! Regardless of a deal or no deal outcome, we'll continue to trade. It's worth mentioning that we already trade with the rest of the world without any problems.
> 
> *Will your pricing go up?*
> 
> We are and always will be committed to keeping any price impact to a minimum. There are currently costs associated with exporting to Europe, which for example, if replaced with a customs charge - may just cancel each other out.
> 
> If we do see prices increase from suppliers, then we may have to pass these on to customers. However, if the pound weakens after Brexit - then you may see a price decrease when ordering in Euros!
> 
> *Will you still be able to deliver to Europe?*
> 
> We certainly will! We're confident in the contingency plans that our courier partners have undertaken to minimise disruption to their customer's supply chain. These plans include; Enhancement of infrastructure and systems sustained delivery of service levels and customer and government support during the transition.
> 
> *Should I expect longer delivery periods post-Brexit *
> 
> Not at all, they will be equivalent to now. If I live outside of the EU will I see any changes to the service? No, it will be business as usual!
> 
> *Will there be a customs charge?*
> 
> Yes, there may be a customs charge. We are still waiting to see what happens with the Political deal. In a no-deal scenario, there would be customs charges. We may decide to use a DDP (Delivery Duty Paid) approach and pay these customs charges on behalf of the customer at the point of dispatch, meaning no financial impact involved when shopping with us.
> 
> *Will there be changes in your product selection *
> 
> We don't envisage any restriction in the range we offer post-Brexit - so you'll still be able to shop your British favourites with ease.
> 
> *How are British Corner Shop planning on handling Brexit?*
> 
> We have undertaken extensive scenario planning and have our systems and processes ready to handle a range of possible outcomes.
> 
> Our key courier partners have reassured us that their Brexit planning is comprehensive enough to deal with any predicted changes.


Interesting, and optimistic. I wonder how their couriers are going to bypass any queues and customs checks on foodstuffs so that delivery times don't suffer ...


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> *{QUOTE} "If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. 21/2"*
> 
> *"Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements."{QUOTE}
> *
> What I can't understand is why, instead of making your point using a credible source such as Just Foods for example, you prefer to quote an opinion from one of your twitter cronies that few of us have ever heard of!
> 
> https://www.just-food.com/analysis/...n-for-the-uk-eu-food-industries_id140771.aspx
> 
> *No-deal Brexit - what would trading under WTO rules mean for the UK, EU food industries?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Confused.com


Hilarious from someone who sites far right propaganda websites & pathological liars like John Redwood et al as credible sources. My aching sides:Hilarious

Thank you though, for finding a source which supports Edwins claim that WTO terms are crap. He sure knows his stuff.

...


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Just received this in my inbox. I should add that I order goods from companies such as Petplanet, Viovet, The Book Depository and Real Foods to name a few and none of them have notified me saying there will be a problem after Brexit No problem either with carriers such as DPD!
> 
> All your Brexit questions answered
> Yahoo/Inbox
> 
> View this email in your browser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Register to redeem points
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shop Now Brit Kits Books Extra Points Sweets Easter
> ​
> 
> *Will British Corner Shop still exist after Brexit?*
> 
> Of course! Regardless of a deal or no deal outcome, we'll continue to trade. It's worth mentioning that we already trade with the rest of the world without any problems.
> 
> *Will your pricing go up?*
> 
> We are and always will be committed to keeping any price impact to a minimum. There are currently costs associated with exporting to Europe, which for example, if replaced with a customs charge - may just cancel each other out.
> 
> If we do see prices increase from suppliers, then we may have to pass these on to customers. However, if the pound weakens after Brexit - then you may see a price decrease when ordering in Euros!
> 
> *Will you still be able to deliver to Europe?*
> 
> We certainly will! We're confident in the contingency plans that our courier partners have undertaken to minimise disruption to their customer's supply chain. These plans include; Enhancement of infrastructure and systems sustained delivery of service levels and customer and government support during the transition.
> 
> *Should I expect longer delivery periods post-Brexit *
> 
> Not at all, they will be equivalent to now. If I live outside of the EU will I see any changes to the service? No, it will be business as usual!
> 
> *Will there be a customs charge?*
> 
> Yes, there may be a customs charge. We are still waiting to see what happens with the Political deal. In a no-deal scenario, there would be customs charges. We may decide to use a DDP (Delivery Duty Paid) approach and pay these customs charges on behalf of the customer at the point of dispatch, meaning no financial impact involved when shopping with us.
> 
> *Will there be changes in your product selection *
> 
> We don't envisage any restriction in the range we offer post-Brexit - so you'll still be able to shop your British favourites with ease.
> 
> *How are British Corner Shop planning on handling Brexit?*
> 
> We have undertaken extensive scenario planning and have our systems and processes ready to handle a range of possible outcomes.
> 
> Our key courier partners have reassured us that their Brexit planning is comprehensive enough to deal with any predicted changes.


And they'll be £350m for the NHS too of course.

This kind of bullshit didn't wash with me in 2016, let alone now, especially when Brexit supporting ministers advise of higher prices post Brexit let alone the opponents.

It's also rather ironic with yourself residing in an EU country you won't be facing the possibilities of rationing and inferior food standards that people in the UK will do.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> And they'll be £350m for the NHS too of course.
> 
> This kind of bullshit didn't wash with me in 2016, let alone now, especially when Brexit supporting ministers advise of higher prices post Brexit let alone the opponents.
> 
> It's also rather ironic with yourself residing in an EU country you won't be facing the possibilities of rationing and inferior food standards that people in the UK will do.


What on earth are you talking about????? What Bullshit??????????????????????????

https://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/about-us

*About British Corner Shop®*

What do you suggest I do, come back to the UK and park myself on you"?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting, and optimistic. I wonder how their couriers are going to bypass any queues and customs checks on foodstuffs so that delivery times don't suffer ...


Some late night reading for you .....

https://www.dpd.co.uk/pdf/DPD Brexit Guide Nov 2018.pdf

*Brexit update November 2018 Keeping our customers informed*

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...ogleAds&pk_medium=GoogleSearch&pk_content=Ad3

*How to prepare for Brexit Customs guide for businesses*

https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/fedex/eu-europe/brexit/No-Deal-Brexit-Guide-FedEx-Branded.pdf

*No Deal Need-to-Know*


----------



## cheekyscrip

So more the Non EU immigration? How then Brexit will stop it?
New deals with the rest of the world will cost us many restrictions lifted, this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...

One would think that immigration from countries culturally closer is easier to gel in...

Strange that this is what Brexit really brings and this is what UKiP fought for...
Ironic....


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-commits-to-uk-investments-2019-2

*Norway's $1 trillion sovereign wealth fund, the world's largest, is betting on the UK - regardless of how badly Brexit turns out*


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum I think the corner shop has been finished off my supermarkets, high business rates etc and replaced with takeaways or being changed into housing.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> So more the Non EU immigration? How then Brexit will stop it?
> New deals with the rest of the world will cost us many restrictions lifted, this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...
> 
> One would think that immigration from countries culturally closer is easier to gel in...
> 
> Strange that this is what Brexit really brings and this is what UKiP fought for...
> Ironic....


 Wow , perhaps it's you Remainers that are racist . I wonder how many Remainers thought of that along with Project fear . Keep Britain white springs to mind. 

If a Leaver had said this* , 
this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...*
yous all be doing your nuts and accusing them of racism. !


----------



## rona

*George Eustice's letter of resignation *

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...k7OdFU-SoLpi6le1RAMMTAvcjkr59b6-hrT99PKHRGRFY


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Wow , perhaps it's you Remainers that are racist . I wonder how many Remainers thought of that along with Project fear . Keep Britain white springs to mind.
> 
> If a Leaver had said this* ,
> this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...*
> yous all be doing your nuts and accusing them of racism. !


It was said tongue in cheek because it was what I heard so many times from Leave supporters ... Brexit was supposed to stop that!

Actually I don't mind at all if in the future all humans will be racially mixed and all cultures will mingle, posted about it not long ago...
Even Brexit has some silver lining... more United Colours of Benneton than UK but so be it if it is what you wish for...
Once Britain ruled over many countries... now kind of colonialism in reverse...


----------



## kimthecat

I wish Boris would resign .



 
Boris Johnson *✔* @BorisJohnson 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1101160057188896768George Eustice is brave and right - and his superb letter to the PM shows that no deal may yet be the best option for the U.K.



4,610 
 4:39 PM - Feb 28, 2019
'


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Wow , perhaps it's you Remainers that are racist . I wonder how many Remainers thought of that along with Project fear . Keep Britain white springs to mind.
> 
> If a Leaver had said this* ,
> this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...*
> yous all be doing your nuts and accusing them of racism. !


Ahem, witness the front pages of the tabloids recently concerning a young _British _woman and the explosions on Social Media. Indeed I unfriended someone on FB for sharing posts from Kate Hopkins and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon concerning the great Brexit distraction.

Would never have happened had she been white and photographed wearing "Western" clothing. They would have accused "Asian gangs" of grooming her.

The papers and the hate preachers are hardly Remainers are they...

But you're right some Asian communities fell for the lies from Johnson and co. which turned out to be another big fib.

As for your second paragraph that's certainly the attitude from the majority of "White British" Brexit supporters I know!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.facebook.com/1760416737597207/posts/1989252421380303/


----------



## KittenKong

FB

I came back from SODEM yesterday thinking I would LOVE all my Leave voting friends to see for themselves the people who are supporting Brexit. They epitomised racism, xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny. It was there for the world to see. My Leave voting friends aren't like that at all but they are allying themselves with these people.

I came away thinking SODEM should be on everyone's who lives in the U.K. bucket list.

I can't help thinking many leavers would transfer their alliances just by seeing those leavers and their tactics far more than any conversion through a rational argument.

My Leave voting friends would NOT like this remark for sure.









Sure this will make you feel more British and proud...


----------



## KittenKong

Question for those who wish to see all none British born people deported.

Why haven't this rotten government fast-tracked "True British" people into training them to do the jobs people from overseas get accused of stealing from them?

More gross incompetence. And people trust them with Brexit? I wouldn't even if I was in favour of it.

No use blaming the "Remoaners" when it all goes wrong, despite what your papers and right-wing social media may preach to you.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> *Wow , perhaps it's you Remainers that are racist *. I wonder how many Remainers thought of that along with Project fear . Keep Britain white springs to mind.
> 
> If a Leaver had said this* ,
> this is why Asian communities voted for Brexit as it will help them to bring their relatives in, facilitating arranged marriages etc...*
> yous all be doing your nuts and accusing them of racism. !


The evidence suggests otherwise.



rona said:


> *George Eustice's letter of resignation *
> 
> https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...k7OdFU-SoLpi6le1RAMMTAvcjkr59b6-hrT99PKHRGRFY





kimthecat said:


> I wish Boris would resign .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson *✔* @BorisJohnson
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1101160057188896768George Eustice is brave and right - and his superb letter to the PM shows that no deal may yet be the best option for the U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> 4,610
> 4:39 PM - Feb 28, 2019
> '


George Eustice is nothing but a nasty climate change denying wildlife criminal. Its really fascinating that leave supporters, like climate change deniers, choose to believe charlatans over facts, evidence & expertise.

Take just one area, our NHS. All forms of brexit will be dreadful - no deal will be catastrophic. Its fine for brexit supporters to gamble with their own lives, but they are gambling with the lives of millions of people, childrens lives!, who did not vote for this.

*The Lancet*‏Verified account @TheLancet Feb 26
*New Health Policy analysis: #Brexit will cause significant harm to the #NHS, but No-Deal Brexit presents by far the worst option* https://hubs.ly/H0gMJll0


----------



## noushka05

Spot on.

*James Melville:*
_The Washington Post has done what no one else has managed to do. They've worked out what Brexit means._

_







_


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:

*1936* Workers march from Jarrow to London to push for an end to joblessness and poverty.

*2019* Brexiters march from Sunderland to London to push for an increase in joblessness and poverty.


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏: Still 29 days to go and literally nobody is arguing that Brexit is going to make anything better any more.

*Curtis Stigers*‏: But the will of the people blah blah blah

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## KittenKong

You seriously trust this incompetent government with your post Brexit futures? Really?

Even from the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47409350


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> What do you suggest I do, come back to the UK and park myself on you"?


Yes, perhaps you should if you believe it's going to be so good for your country.


----------



## KittenKong

While I have no time for this WWII reminiscing David Lammy is right.

At one time the British did fight the fascists.

Nowadays they are embracing it.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Yes, perhaps you should if you believe it's going to be so good for your country.


That's extremely kind of you to offer to take me in especially as I will still have to maintain my home in Hungary and I won't be able to contribute anything to my board and lodgings.

And by the way I hope you don't mind my bringing my two dogs as well, but must warn you that one of them doesn't like cats.

Just in case you own one!.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum I think the corner shop has been finished off my supermarkets, high business rates etc and replaced with takeaways or being changed into housing.


In case I didn't make it clear the British Corner Shop is an online store located in Bristol which supply British groceries to customers all over the world. There are several other online grocery stores like this one which I sometimes buy groceries from.

https://www.southafricanshop.co.uk/



The disappearance of the corner shop isn't peculiar to the UK, the same thing has happened in the small market town where I do most of my shopping. The shops are all located along the main street but since Spar opened a large supermarket with ample parking a few years ago, many of the smaller shops have closed down. At one time we had a choice of 4 butchers, now there's only one that's still open!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I have had 2 people here on ignore for a while now.


Yep, me too: the only ones I have on ignore are from this thread. It does your head in sometimes.


----------



## AlexPed2393

There seems to be a lack of conversation once again in the thread, simply just putting every scrap of information up, rather than post/reply/post/reply. Makes it hard for others to join in on the conversation


----------



## Happy Paws2

AlexPed2393 said:


> There seems to be a lack of conversation once again in the thread, simply just putting every scrap of information up, rather than post/reply/post/reply. Makes it hard for others to join in on the conversation


Yes... there is to much useless information on here and it does my head in plus there's just to much rubbish to even bother to read and the very large print drives me mad. Facts are OK sometimes but we seem to be drowning in it.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> In case I didn't make it clear the British Corner Shop is an online store located in Bristol which supply British groceries to customers all over the world. There are several other online grocery stores like this one which I sometimes buy groceries from.
> 
> https://www.southafricanshop.co.uk/
> 
> 
> 
> The disappearance of the corner shop isn't peculiar to the UK, the same thing has happened in the small market town where I do most of my shopping. The shops are all located along the main street but since Spar opened a large supermarket with ample parking a few years ago, many of the smaller shops have closed down. At one time we had a choice of 4 butchers, now there's only one that's still open!


Oh sorry . I didnt read it properly


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Oh sorry . I didnt read it properly


No need to be sorry. My fault for not making it clear that the email was from a genuine company and not a fake one!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-commits-to-uk-investments-2019-2
> 
> *Norway's $1 trillion sovereign wealth fund, the world's largest, is betting on the UK - regardless of how badly Brexit turns out*


I think I'm going to have to buy a black hat so that I'm suitably attired when posting what seem to be Eeyore comments on news like this!

The $1 trillion fund currently has $83 billion - or 8.3% - invested in the UK, with 91.7% invested elsewhere, so it isn't a large exposure. And their time horizon is 30 years, by which time the effects of Brexit will be quite obscured, if not hidden completely, so I wouldn't expect a knee-jerk reaction.

But mostly, the UK, as all sensible anti-Brexit people will point out, is not going to fall apart as a result of Brexit. Even a No Deal Brexit is likely damage the country significantly only in the short to medium term; maybe a decade or so, but that's a guess. We will still trade and grow and make profits and will therefore provide returns to investors like the Norwegian fund.

Growth, profits and returns on investment will surely be less than had we stayed in, but they will still be positive. So there is little need to remove or reduce the relatively small investment that Norway has here, and indeed it will very likely increase over the 30 years, as most things do in monetary terms over that time frame.

But like some other stories there is no particular benefit here from Brexit; merely confirmation that the country will still be operating and providing opportunities, albeit at a lower level than would otherwise be the case.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Question for those who wish to see all none British born people deported.


I have to say I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating deportation, so I'm not sure you should expect an answer to your question.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Question for those who wish to see all none British born people deported.


 and who on here wishes to see non British born people deported ? 
I tell you who I'd deport , whinging, whiney , cry baby, boo hoo hoo people ,  That would clear half the country !


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I have to say I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating deportation, so I'm not sure you should expect an answer to your question.


The Invisible man ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> and who on here wishes to see non British born people deported ?
> *I tell you who I'd deport* ,


The politicians... May and her tory party first.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> The Invisible man ?
> 
> View attachment 395330


Or maybe this man seeing as he's one of KK's favourite people


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> The politicians... May and her tory party first.


I'd add Labour to that ! 

Chuka Umunna is now the leader of the Independent party , I wish them luck . 
I remember the hope I felt when the SDP formed, I was disappointed it wasn't a success.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I'd add Labour to that !
> 
> Chuka Umunna is now the leader of the Independent party , I wish them luck .
> I remember the hope I felt when the SDP formed, I was disappointed it wasn't a success.


Unfortunately he just keeps parroting the same thing. Mind you, so did Theresa May. Look where she is today and Jeremy Corbyn, same thing. I think Chuka is quite ambitious and realises people are fed up. Heidi Allen we discussed a while back, when I said I thought she seemed ok, but got given a list of how she'd voted to prove how awful a Tory she is and how wrong I am.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I have to say I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating deportation, so I'm not sure you should expect an answer to your question.


I have not accused anyone individually here, though an earlier thread did have one or two suggesting 'British' staff should replace EU staff despite me pointing out the length of time it takes to train Doctors and Nurses for example.


----------



## Magyarmum

Good news for British expats living in Spain

https://www.thelocal.es/20190301/spain-guarantees-residency-for-400000-brits-even-with-hard-brexit

*Spain guarantees residency for 400,000 Brits even with Hard Brexit*

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551427780_768403.html

*Spain plans to grant residency to 400,000 Britons if there is a hard Brexit*

And good news also for EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...o-deal-brexit?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=D

*MEPs approve citizens' social benefits retention in no-deal Brexit*

Plus an interesting survey about Brexit held in the EU member states

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...xit-survey-says?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign

*Member States not expecting much EU fallout from Brexit, survey says*


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I have not accused anyone individually here, though an earlier thread did have one or two suggesting 'British' staff should replace EU staff despite me pointing out the length of time it takes to train Doctors and Nurses for example.


and you translate that as
"Question for those who wish to see all none British born people deported. " ? :Hilarious

BTW its non-British not none British


----------



## KittenKong

Imagine Chris Grayling and co taking back control of your borders and laws?

Because you won't be.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 395368


Whoever finds this funny must have a warped sense of humour!

To put it into perspective .......

https://jdrf.org.uk/news/jdrf-updat...he-event-of-a-no-deal-brexit-january-17-2019/

*JDRF update on insulin supplies in the event of a no deal Brexit - January 17, 2019*

https://www.supplychaindive.com/news/Insulin-stockpiled-ahead-Brexit/546543/

*Novo Nordisk stockpiles insulin over worries of no-deal Brexit*

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-a-deal-poses-health-risk-pharma-lobby-warns

*Brexit Forces Biggest Insulin Supplier to Turn to the Skies
*
I stand to be corrected but I believe the majority of diabetics are entitled to free prescriptions under the NHS which is normally for a 3 month supply of insulin. Admittedly insulin must be stored in a fridge which might be a problem for some.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Life-with-diabetes/Free-prescriptions

*Free prescriptions (England)*

*
*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Or maybe this man seeing as he's one of KK's favourite people


Projection  KK isn't the one endorsing far right propaganda outlets. KK comes across as someone who believes in social democracy - the total opposite of Grobbels & the people behind Westmonster.

*Westmonster - Fascist Fake News*
http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2017/01/westmonster-fascist-fake-news.html


----------



## rona

If Diabetes continues to grow worldwide at the rate it is, then there's going to be a shortage soon anyway 

https://dlife.com/study-predicts-worldwide-insulin-shortage-by-the-year-2030/


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Whoever finds this funny must have a warped sense of humour!


Its called satire. Are you really more outraged by that then brexiters gambling with peoples lives?

_Leading Charities Call For No Deal Clarity On Insulin: In a joint statement, Diabetes UK and JDRF have said that, without more detail, they cannot say a no-deal Brexit would be safe for people reliant on insulin.


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1031104980604907520_


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> If Diabetes continues to grow worldwide at the rate it is, then there's going to be a shortage soon anyway
> 
> https://dlife.com/study-predicts-worldwide-insulin-shortage-by-the-year-2030/


More whataboutery


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Projection  KK isn't the one endorsing far right propaganda outlets. KK comes across as someone who believes in social democracy - the total opposite of Grobbels & the people behind Westmonster.
> 
> *Westmonster - Fascist Fake News*
> http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2017/01/westmonster-fascist-fake-news.html


Perhaps in that case you should inform @KittenKong. seeing that he was the one who posted the far right propaganda comparing May to Goebbels.

A believer in Social Democracy .... my foot .... get real!



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 394859


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> If Diabetes continues to grow worldwide at the rate it is, then there's going to be a shortage soon anyway
> 
> https://dlife.com/study-predicts-worldwide-insulin-shortage-by-the-year-2030/


Hilarious justification for introducing self-inflicted shortages in the UK then :Hilarious.

While even I know Brexit isn't the cause if diabetes , any shortages in supplies of insulin after 29/03/19 will be directly attributed to it.

Then, this rotten government and the media blame the people for developing it due to obesity...


----------



## KittenKong

Worth a read.

https://e-surgery.com/brexit-medicine-shortage-whos-affected/


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> More whataboutery


Isn't it amazing when you can't refute the evidence you resort to labelling it "whataboutery"!

Such hypocrisy!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/21/health/global-insulin-shortage-diabetes-intl/index.html

*40 million people with diabetes will be left without insulin by 2030, study predicts*

*



*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Whoever finds this funny must have a warped sense of humour!












Black humour can still be humour. And one can smile at this particular joke while at the same time trusting that it won't be allowed to happen.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Worth a read.
> 
> https://e-surgery.com/brexit-medicine-shortage-whos-affected/
> 
> View attachment 395424


https://www.sps.nhs.uk/category/shortages-discontinuations-and-expiries/

*Shortages, Discontinuations and Patent Expiries*


----------



## Elles

Funny how they always put forward children with type 1, not morbidly obese 50 year olds with type 2.

If the morbidly obese (and other) adults with type 2 changed to a whole food plant based diet, most, if not all, would cure their diabetes and leave more of the insulin for the children and adults with type 1 for whom there is no cure.

A diabetic friend and work colleague weighed nearly 30 stone last year. He bought an e-bike from us and couldn't ride it. Then he went to a barbecue where there was only vegan food. He ate it, was surprised it didn't taste like cardboard, watched forks over knives and went wfpb towards the ended of last year. He's has lost over 6 stone, is exercising and is no longer diabetic.

I don't know if leaving the Eu will lead to a shortage in insulin over and above the global shortage (one man's loss will be another man's gain, if it is the case, what there is won't be binned and the companies won't stop making it) , but the fear over it has highlighted what is a greater problem. And that is that an unhealthy western diet is leading to more and more cases of type 2 diabetes and other unnecessary health issues and that does need addressing. In that case, a shortage in whole food plant based products, fresh fruit and vegetables, that is also being warned about would be of just as much if not more concern than a shortage of insulin which many shouldn't really need.

This isn't due to brexit, but another shortage due to high demand:

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/abbott-glucose-sensors-diabetes-demand-risk/


----------



## KittenKong

Anyone care to answer this?
Not forgetting Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are *not *in the EU...


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Black humour can still be humour. And one can smile at this particular joke while at the same time trusting that it won't be allowed to happen.


I appreciate it's black humour and in the right context it would/could be seen as funny.

However, in this instance IMO over an illness as serious as diabetes, the "humour" doesn't come over as the least bit funny and is in very poor taste.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I appreciate it's black humour and in the right context it would/could be seen as funny.
> 
> However, in this instance IMO over an illness as serious as diabetes, the "humour" doesn't come over as the least bit funny and is in very poor taste.


Fair enough, though by the same token no-one (not even the ERG) now disputes that the immediate effects of a No Deal Brexit are going to be damaging.

Some people, for example, will lose their jobs, and it is not hard to extrapolate subsequent events in some families leading to tragic consequences.

The money flowing into Treasury coffers will reduce, impacting on welfare, with similar results for some of those already on the margins.

Without getting overly melodramatic, some people will be pushed over an edge from which they will never return.

So perhaps those who welcome No Deal should look further than the 'insulin' line, which could lead directly to death, and recognise that any substituted line reflecting the results of such a Brexit would lead, though not as directly, to the same, very unfunny, result. The purpose of the black humour is to make people think, not laugh.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Its called satire. Are you really more outraged by that then brexiters gambling with peoples lives?
> 
> _Leading Charities Call For No Deal Clarity On Insulin: In a joint statement, Diabetes UK and JDRF have said that, without more detail, they cannot say a no-deal Brexit would be safe for people reliant on insulin.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1031104980604907520_


I'm the last person you should be lecturing, having an elder son who's suffered from type 1 Diabetes since the age of 15. He's now 50 years old and although he's controlled the disease extremely well, he's beginning to suffer from the complications, diabetes can cause. Over the past 12 months he's not been able to walk much farther than 100 yards due to Peripheral Neuropathy in both legs which naturally is extremely worrying, because it could lead to amputation, gangrene or death!

Of course it would never occur to you that I might be posting "optimistic" article because as a mother I'm terrified of the alternative? Impossible because according to you I'm a heartless extreme right wing fascist, something which says more about you than me!

https://timesulin.com/5-common-type-1-diabetes-compliations/

*5 Common Type 1 Diabetes Complications*

And now I have a question for you?

Have you ever watched one of your children dying a slow death, knowing there was no cure?

I have and it's more than heartbreaking knowing you're going to lose someone you love more than life itself!

https://theconversation.com/can-england-really-eliminate-hepatitis-c-by-2025-90979

*Can England really eliminate hepatitis C by 2025*

My younger son died of complications due to having contracted Hepatitis C as a young child. Unfortunately, as in so many cases, he wasn't diagnosed until many years later by which time he was seriously ill and had developed cancer of the liver. I have nothing but praise for the French NHS who did everything in their power to save his life, including interferon and ribavirin treatment at a cost to the State of £46000 for a 12 week course, They also flew him back to France to undergo a liver transplant but sadly he died a week before he was due to undergo the operation and nearly a year since diagnosis.

It's been 9 years since he died and there's not a day goes by without my missing him!

@noushka05 - I hope to God you never have to go through what I went through.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Alan Jackdon

Snoringbear said:


> So, the Porsche additional 10% is simply to recoup the cost of WTO tariffs. It's nothing to do with trying to increase profit margins. If anything, it will prevent them making any small incremental increase this year on their products. But it's there as a contingency for a no-deal straight to WTO outcome. If there's a deal, it won't come into affect.
> 
> Whether someone buying a Porsche can easily afford an extra few thousands is a moot point. But a 10% WTO tariff on cars would affect products from all countries. So if someone was going to buy a £10k car, that would now be £11k. Can't see car manufacturers sucking up the cost of the the full cost of the tariffs tbh, although large volume manufacturers may have more wiggle room than the likes of Porsche.


You don't understand tariffs and economics. A 10% tariff on cars will not increase the price by 10%.

I'll keep it simple. You buy a bunch of bananas today for £1. If there is a 20% tariff on them the price will increase to about £1.02 not £1.20. The tariff is on the import price not the retail price and that £1 bunch of bananas will have been imported for about 10p.

But the resident Pet Forums economist ignored this fact (as remainers do).


----------



## Elles

They were undercover talking to migrants on tv last night. They said they were told to hurry and try to get here before brexit when it might become much harder. So my guess was right, at least for some people.

I'm really sorry to read of your experiences @Magyarmum . 

This is the trouble when people get stuck with labels and generalised. It doesn't take into account our different life experiences and no one seems to ask, we're all so busy promoting our own opinions and agendas, we forget there are real people, living real lives, who may have real experiences behind their posts, rather than what they read on the internet, or saw on the news.  Some people seem to prefer the doom and gloom and pessimism and as one issue is addressed, are only too keen to jump on the next one to complain about. There's a lady I know who is just like that.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> You don't understand tariffs and economics. A 10% tariff on cars will not increase the price by 10%.
> 
> I'll keep it simple. You buy a bunch of bananas today for £1. If there is a 20% tariff on them the price will increase to about £1.02 not £1.20. The tariff is on the import price not the retail price and that £1 bunch of bananas will have been imported for about 10p.
> 
> But the resident Pet Forums economist ignored this fact (as remainers do).


Interesting first ever post.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting first ever post.


Isn't it. Quick search on your post and going back months you've only ever posted on the Brexit thread, equally as interesting.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Isn't it. Quick search on your post and going back months you've only ever posted on the Brexit thread, equally as interesting.


Interesting, maybe, but wrong I'm afraid. And what a strange thing for a new member to do.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting, maybe, but wrong I'm afraid. And what a strange thing for a new member to do.


Likewise, and not wrong. The search facility is very useful and you've only posted on this thread for at least the past three months.


----------



## Happy Paws2

This is frightening

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Likewise, and not wrong. The search facility is very useful and you've only posted on this thread for at least the past three months.


It's only my sad compulsion for facts that makes me reply, but this is from February 9th. I would include a link, but you might want to use the very useful search facility to confirm. Our much respected member @rona is contemplating a cruise ...



Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure you can, and that's it's free for breakfast. My (now sadly late) mother used to have her breakfast in her cabin each day. I suspect they may charge for the evening meal.
> 
> There are a couple of pools iirc, and the gyms are always pretty good on the ships, and usually have a good view of the sea.



You will note that February 9th is less than 3 months ago.

My posting history is of course quite irrelevant. My original response to you was prompted by the fact that PC members, in my limited experience of them, do not make disrespectful comments to other members in their very first post, except perhaps those returning under a new user name. That point has now been made.

I come here only for discussion, and occasional education, so I'll let you have the last word should you so wish because I am unlikely to respond.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> ​
> You will note that February 9th is less than 3 months ago.
> 
> My posting history is of course quite irrelevant. My original response to you was prompted by the fact that PC members, in my limited experience of them, do not make disrespectful comments to other members in their very first post, except perhaps those returning under a new user name. That point has now been made.
> 
> I come here only for discussion, and occasional education, so I'll let you have the last word should you so wish because I am unlikely to respond.


One other post in three plus months, we'll done (the search facility is there for all to use so no point telling porkies)! I came here for discussion and education as well after searching "Brexit" on google. Which is when I noticed you, as a "self-proclaimed" economist, have failed to correct the renainers misinformation. Very odd to say the least. Well actually not as remainers don't dwell on the actual facts only headline misinformation.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> This is frightening
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119


Perhaps you might like to read these articles ..... hopefully they might allay your fears somewhat!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...us-farms-trap-britain-eus-museum-agriculture/

*Don't let smears about US farms trap Britain into the EU's Museum of Agriculture *

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ars-stop-post-brexit-trade-deal-idUSKCN1QJ077

*U.S. ambassador says don't let farming 'smears' stop post-Brexit trade deal*


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> One other pos inI three plus months, we'll done (the search facility is there for all to use so no point telling porkies)! I came here for discussion and education as well after searching "Brexit" on google. Which is when I noticed you, as a "self-proclaimed" economist, have failed to correct the renainers misinformation. Very odd to say the least. Well actually not as remainers don't dwell on the actual facts only headline misinformation.


That was merely the most recent post, not the only one. But as I say, it is an irrelevance.

I think someone with a degree in economics is probably entitled to describe themselves as an economist, but I'm sure there must be different definitions.

When I see counter-factual posts I comment on them, whichever side of the Brexit debate they support, as those anti-Brexit commentators like @noushka and @KittenKong would attest. Since you only joined today, you may not have had time to study the 520 pages in sufficient detail to form an accurate opinion.

This thread certainly contains contributions from people with firmly held and passionately expressed views, but I would respectfully suggest that a more amicable attitude, especially from the word go, might extend your (current) stay here.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you might like to read these articles ..... hopefully they might allay your fears somewhat!
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...us-farms-trap-britain-eus-museum-agriculture/
> 
> *Don't let smears about US farms trap Britain into the EU's Museum of Agriculture *
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ars-stop-post-brexit-trade-deal-idUSKCN1QJ077
> 
> *U.S. ambassador says don't let farming 'smears' stop post-Brexit trade deal*


I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns about some US farming practices are overblown, or lend themselves to differing scientific viewpoints, but that probably isn't the point.

The EU have rules that exclude certain US agricultural products on the basis of those practices. If the UK were to adopt them, our products would be similarly excluded from our biggest market. If we didn't adopt them, but allowed US products into the UK then that would give an unfair advantage to the US farmers over their UK equivalents. The EU would certainly introduce border checks that we are trying to avoid, and may deem our exports unacceptable in any case.

In reality, we would probably only be able to sign the sort of trade deal with the US that their ambassador wants if the EU were to change their rules.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you might like to read these articles ..... hopefully they might allay your fears somewhat!
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...us-farms-trap-britain-eus-museum-agriculture/
> 
> *Don't let smears about US farms trap Britain into the EU's Museum of Agriculture *
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ars-stop-post-brexit-trade-deal-idUSKCN1QJ077
> 
> *U.S. ambassador says don't let farming 'smears' stop post-Brexit trade deal*


4

To be honest I really don't want to buy thing from America, in or out of the EU


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> 4
> 
> To be honest I really don't want to buy thing from America, in or out of the EU


Unfortunately it's quite probable you already unwittingly do!

An interesting little chart showing what the UK imports from countries round the world.

*http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-imports.html*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> *Unfortunately it's quite probable you already unwittingly do! *
> 
> An interesting little chart showing what the UK imports from countries round the world.
> 
> *http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-imports.html*


Hopefully not, we check things we buy and most things are European.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> That was merely the most recent post, not the only one. But as I say, it is an irrelevance.
> 
> I think someone with a degree in economics is probably entitled to describe themselves as an economist, but I'm sure there must be different definitions.
> 
> When I see counter-factual posts I comment on them, whichever side of the Brexit debate they support, as those anti-Brexit commentators like @noushka and @KittenKong would attest. Since you only joined today, you may not have had time to study the 520 pages in sufficient detail to form an accurate opinion.
> 
> This thread certainly contains contributions from people with firmly held and passionately expressed views, but I would respectfully suggest that a more amicable attitude, especially from the word go, might extend your (current) stay here.


You "say" you have a degree in economics but seem to not understand the basics, or certainly don't correct misinformation (as per my first post) - but as I said, as a remainer........

I simply corrected a remainers error, which I would have thought, if you do understand economics, you would have agreed with. So no I don't believe you are a economist. Yes, you may (as you claim) have studied economics but that doesn't make you qualified in economics as you lack real life experience. Pretty much like "acadamics" who just re-quote others work rather than their own.

But that has nothing to do with this thread. I refer to my original post that corrects the facts about tariffs - they are a duty on import not retail prices.

Just because I've only just joined in the converstation doesn't mean I have'nt been reading the thread from day one.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> You "say" you have a degree in economics but seem to not understand the basics, or certainly don't correct misinformation (as per my first post) - but as I said, as a remainer........
> 
> I simply corrected a remainers error, which I would have thought, if you do understand economics, you would have agreed with. So no I don't believe you are a economist. Yes, you may (as you claim) have studied economics but that doesn't make you qualified in economics as you lack real life experience. Pretty much like "acadamics" who just re-quote others work rather than their own.
> 
> But that has nothing to do with this thread. I refer to my original post that corrects the facts about tariffs - they are a duty on import not retail prices.
> 
> Just because I've only just joined in the converstation doesn't mean I have'nt been reading the thread from day one.


Ah, now I recognise who you were.

I didn't put you on ignore last time you were posting on this thread, I think I will this time.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, now I recognise who you were.
> 
> I didn't put you on ignore last time you were posting on this thread, I think I will this time.


Fair play (but you don't know me). I won't be putting you on ignore though (mainly because I'm a adult and can self- censor what I read, I don't need to be hand-held) because I'm interested in your very thinly veiled pro-remain posts.

So why haven't you corrected the inaccuracies posted by the remain camp? I thought you were a economist who would surely correct misinformation, such as the erroneous posts on tariffs and immigration?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps in that case you should inform @KittenKong. seeing that he was the one who posted the far right propaganda comparing May to Goebbels.
> 
> A believer in Social Democracy .... my foot .... get real!


Someones opinion that there are comparisons to be drawn between two hard right authoritarian figures is most certainly not endorsing far right propaganda.

Unless you're in denial about this too, KK's posts suggest otherwise.



Magyarmum said:


> Isn't it amazing when you can't refute the evidence you resort to labelling it "whataboutery"!
> 
> Such hypocrisy!
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/21/health/global-insulin-shortage-diabetes-intl/index.html
> 
> *40 million people with diabetes will be left without insulin by 2030, study predicts*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Because _it is_ a classic example of whataboutism MM. I wasn't disputing there will be global shortages but this does not invalidate the fact that *brexit* is an immediate threat to shortages of insulin here.

Latest statement from Diabetes UK & JDRF.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about-u...-insulin-supply?amp&__twitter_impression=true
*Diabetes UK and JDRF issue joint statement calling for concrete detail from government on access to insulin in event of no-deal Brexit*
Sat 02 March 2019

Diabetes UK has today issued a joint statement with the charity JDRF, re-stating with them our call on the UK Government to urgently provide concrete detail on its plans to ensure no interruption to the availability of insulin and other medical supplies in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

Chris Askew, Chief Executive of Diabetes UK and Karen Addington, Chief Executive of JDRF, have made the following statement:

"With just a matter of weeks between now and 29th March and, despite reaching out directly to the Department of Health and Social Care in December, we still have not seen the concrete detail needed to reassure us - or people with diabetes - that the UK Government's plans are robust enough to guarantee no impact on insulin and medicine supplies in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

"We are increasingly hearing from worried people who do not feel reassured by existing published guidance on this issue. With the information available to date, we feel unable to fully alleviate their concerns.

"We want to reassure people but - based on the information currently available - we cannot say with confidence that people will be able to get the insulin and other medical supplies they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

"Insulin is a life-saving necessity for hundreds of thousands of people with diabetes, and any delay or interruption to access would be incredibly dangerous. The UK Government must - with all urgency - produce the detail needed to reassure the public that it, and all relevant organisations involved in the smooth supply of insulin into the UK, have robust systems and agreements in place to ensure this supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit."

(it goes on)



Magyarmum said:


> I'm the last person you should be lecturing, having an elder son who's suffered from type 1 Diabetes since the age of 15. He's now 50 years old and although he's controlled the disease extremely well, he's beginning to suffer from the complications, diabetes can cause. Over the past 12 months he's not been able to walk much farther than 100 yards due to Peripheral Neuropathy in both legs which naturally is extremely worrying, because it could lead to amputation, gangrene or death!
> 
> Of course it would never occur to you that I might be posting "optimistic" article because as a mother I'm terrified of the alternative? Impossible because according to you I'm a heartless extreme right wing fascist!
> 
> https://timesulin.com/5-common-type-1-diabetes-complications/
> 
> *5 Common Type 1 Diabetes Complications*
> 
> And now I have a question for you?
> 
> Have you ever watched one of your children dying a slow death, knowing there was no cure?
> 
> I have and it's more than heartbreaking knowing you're going to lose someone you love more than life itself!
> 
> https://theconversation.com/can-england-really-eliminate-hepatitis-c-by-2025-90979
> 
> *Can England really eliminate hepatitis C by 2025*
> 
> My younger son died of complications due to having contracted Hepatitis C as a young child. Unfortunately, as in so many cases, he wasn't diagnosed until many years later by which time he was seriously ill and had developed cancer of the liver. I have nothing but praise for the French NHS who did everything in their power to save his life, including interferon and ribavirin treatment at a cost to the State of £46000 for a 12 week course, They also flew him back to France to undergo a liver transplant but sadly he died a week before he was due to undergo the operation and nearly a year since diagnosis.
> 
> It's been 9 years since he died and there's not a day goes by without my missing him!
> 
> @noushka05 - I hope to God you never have to go through what I went through.


I'm deeply sorry for the loss of your younger Son, & truly sorry to hear your eldest suffers from diabetes. My Sons are my life, it would destroy me if anything happened to them, so I really do feel for you, the pain you are going through must be unbearable. Knowing this makes me even more puzzled why you are still a staunch supporter of leave though. Not only do we know there will be medical shortages but we know it will mean the end of our NHS MM. People aware of the realities, with (& without ) sick loved ones, are frightened to death. I'm terrified for my children, for sick family members & friends. The government are stockpiling body bags & rubber bullets. The tories are playing brinkmanship with the lives of 64 million people. Is brexit worth the life of even one person?


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> 4
> 
> To be honest I really don't want to buy thing from America, in or out of the EU





Magyarmum said:


> Unfortunately it's quite probable you already unwittingly do!
> 
> An interesting little chart showing what the UK imports from countries round the world.
> 
> *http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-imports.html*


Don't worry HP only food products from the USA which meet the EU high standards are allowed in. Obviously after brexit this will change. Brexit was always about deregulation of standards.

,,


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you might like to read these articles ..... hopefully they might allay your fears somewhat!
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...us-farms-trap-britain-eus-museum-agriculture/
> 
> *Don't let smears about US farms trap Britain into the EU's Museum of Agriculture *
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ars-stop-post-brexit-trade-deal-idUSKCN1QJ077
> 
> *U.S. ambassador says don't let farming 'smears' stop post-Brexit trade deal*





Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the concerns about some US farming practices are overblown, or lend themselves to differing scientific viewpoints, but that probably isn't the point.
> 
> The EU have rules that exclude certain US agricultural products on the basis of those practices. If the UK were to adopt them, our products would be similarly excluded from our biggest market. If we didn't adopt them, but allowed US products into the UK then that would give an unfair advantage to the US farmers over their UK equivalents. The EU would certainly introduce border checks that we are trying to avoid, and may deem our exports unacceptable in any case.
> 
> In reality, we would probably only be able to sign the sort of trade deal with the US that their ambassador wants if the EU were to change their rules.


And the US Ambassador wouldnt be lying now would he? US standards are WAY below EU standards. For example 82 pesticides used in the USA are banned in the EU because we go by the precautionary principle. We are heading for TTIP on steroids. A trade deal with the US is not only a threat to our health & safety but to our environment & to livestock. ETA to our health service AND to our democracy.

Animal welfare standards in the USA are abysmal. Take the drug ractopamine, banned in the EU, this drug raises the weight of pigs but can cause their bones to break and their motor functions to degenerate.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Some people seem to prefer the doom and gloom and pessimism and as one issue is addressed, are only too keen to jump on the next one to complain about. There's a lady I know who is just like that.


And some people prefer to deny reality while the country destroys itself & the planet burns.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Heidi Allen we discussed a while back, when I said I thought she seemed ok, but got given a list of how she'd voted to prove how awful a Tory she is and how wrong I am.


The facts speak for themselves.

Some of Heidi's votes on welfare benefits. And lets not forget austerity played a big part in people voting leave.










Crocodile tears don;t work on me!









She also doesn't give a damn about the greatest crisis we face!:Rage

*How Heidi Allen voted on Environmental Issues #*

Consistently voted against measures to prevent climate change

.......................................


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, now I recognise who you were.
> 
> I didn't put you on ignore last time you were posting on this thread, I think I will this time.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> My thoughts exactly.


I would expect nothing less as actual facts are not of interest to you. Perhaps you (and @noushka05) should try actually thinking and coming to your own conclusions rather than just posting reams and reams of other people's thoughts. At least @Arnie83 does give his own thoughts, even if he does gloss over some actual facts to support his point of view.

Here's a tip, the more rubbish you read on how bad brexit will be the more your search engine will show you only anti-brexit content. Delete your browser and all it's cookies then install a new browser and you'll get a far greater range of results.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> And the US Ambassador wouldnt be lying now would he? US standards are WAY below EU standards. For example 82 pesticides used in the USA are banned in the EU because we go by the precautionary principle. We are heading for TTIP on steroids. A trade deal with the US is not only a threat to our health & safety but to our environment & to livestock. ETA to our health service AND to our democracy.
> 
> Animal welfare standards in the USA are abysmal. Take the drug ractopamine, banned in the EU, this drug raises the weight of pigs but can cause their bones to break and their motor functions to degenerate.


If you read the "Summary of US UK Negotiating Objectives" recently published by the US,it makes pretty scary reading. Basically it says that they want full unfettered access to our markets in goods and services, without any petty regulations like the above, and they want protections for their own markets. I think it's from Donald Trump's "Art of the We've-Got-You-Over-A-Barrel Deal".

But even if they start talking on 1st April they won't be able to conclude any deal at all since what we can offer is dependent on what we agree with the EU over the next 2 years.


----------



## Arnie83

Looks like May's Deal might get through after all ...

[Graham] Brady [Chair of the 1922 Committee; he of 'the Brady Amendment'] told the _Observer_ last night that his intention had always been to "ensure that the backstop could not assume a permanent status, trapping the UK in the EU customs union". He added: "As long as the attorney general [Sir Geoffrey Cox] is able to assure the House that he has a legally binding guarantee that the backstop can only be temporary, I would accept that and would urge others to accept it."​
I think he will get the words he wants, though I'm not sure what the legal definition of 'temporary' might be, so then it will be down to the ERG and the Labour rebels.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> I would expect nothing less as actual facts are not of interest to you. Perhaps you (and @noushka05) should try actually thinking and coming to your own conclusions rather than just posting reams and reams of other people's thoughts. At least @Arnie83 does give his own thoughts, even if he does gloss over some actual facts to support his point of view.
> 
> Here's a tip, the more rubbish you read on how bad brexit will be the more your search engine will show you only anti-brexit content. Delete your browser and all it's cookies then install a new browser and you'll get a far greater range of results.


You've just broken a record, the quickest "new" member I've put on ignore!

You can change the name, but cannot disguise the writing style.

I have received many pro Brexit posts on Facebook actually as shared by others. It is my preogrative to dismiss them as bull***t. Because, quite frankly, they are.

Just incase you didn't get my message the last time, *Brexit represents everything I detest.
*
_Just one of the many reasons why, as seen on Facebook:

Imagine moving to a country because you can and have the right to. Fall in love with country - and a person. You put down roots. Add Marmite to the shopping basket. Your kids have different accents to yours, but you embrace life in a country you've chosen.
You start a business. Invest money and energy. The roots become firmer. Yorkshire Puddings.
The Brexit vote happens. You don't get a say: you're an immigrant. It feels unfair, but that's how it is. A divide created. People vote 'NO' to a question nobody understands.
Later a guy calls you 'f******* foreigner' on the streets of London. You tell yourself it's maybe because Iceland just beat England at football, but your stomach turns: Things change.
Months pass. News start referring to EU citizens as 'EU migrants'. You wonder for what purpose other than drive divide.
Over 1000 days dwindle with no answers, endless uncertainty. Friends start to leave the UK. Stress strangles.
The worry about business set in. Things are going well but you can't plan because nobody's making decisions, just power struggles. It becomes harder to hire people. The Leave Lobby shouts: "Nonsense; everything is FINE". Like a silent earthquake, we're all shaking, falling through the cracks, drinking tea, carrying on. You lay awake wondering what to do, for the children's sake.
You see, after 20+ years, 2 kids and a 30-people business, it's not just a matter of saying 'I'm off'. Firstly, that's just not how you do things, it's also not feasible. You can't rip your British-esque children out of school without it changing their lives. You don't just give up. You can't bring yourself to consider leaving - because you love your life. You feel (almost) British.
We have to register to apply to be allowed to stay. We have to 'prepare for Brexit' but nobody has told us how. Recession is inevitable (predictions are 1:8 food businesses will suffer irreversibly). We make plans to stay, ride out the storm because we love London. But we're breaking. It's enough.
Tell me that 'Well, at least you can stay!' and expect me to act grateful. I'm not. Brexit has cut me up - and I'm just one soul of 3,5million EU citizens here.
#Brexit broke our hearts
_


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Someones opinion that there are comparisons to be drawn between two hard right authoritarian figures is most certainly not endorsing far right propaganda.
> 
> Unless you're in denial about this too, KK's posts suggest otherwise.
> 
> Because _it is_ a classic example of whataboutism MM. I wasn't disputing there will be global shortages but this does not invalidate the fact that *brexit* is an immediate threat to shortages of insulin here.
> 
> Latest statement from Diabetes UK & JDRF.
> 
> https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about-u...-insulin-supply?amp&__twitter_impression=true
> *Diabetes UK and JDRF issue joint statement calling for concrete detail from government on access to insulin in event of no-deal Brexit*
> Sat 02 March 2019
> 
> Diabetes UK has today issued a joint statement with the charity JDRF, re-stating with them our call on the UK Government to urgently provide concrete detail on its plans to ensure no interruption to the availability of insulin and other medical supplies in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> Chris Askew, Chief Executive of Diabetes UK and Karen Addington, Chief Executive of JDRF, have made the following statement:
> 
> "With just a matter of weeks between now and 29th March and, despite reaching out directly to the Department of Health and Social Care in December, we still have not seen the concrete detail needed to reassure us - or people with diabetes - that the UK Government's plans are robust enough to guarantee no impact on insulin and medicine supplies in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> "We are increasingly hearing from worried people who do not feel reassured by existing published guidance on this issue. With the information available to date, we feel unable to fully alleviate their concerns.
> 
> "We want to reassure people but - based on the information currently available - we cannot say with confidence that people will be able to get the insulin and other medical supplies they need in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> "Insulin is a life-saving necessity for hundreds of thousands of people with diabetes, and any delay or interruption to access would be incredibly dangerous. The UK Government must - with all urgency - produce the detail needed to reassure the public that it, and all relevant organisations involved in the smooth supply of insulin into the UK, have robust systems and agreements in place to ensure this supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit."
> 
> (it goes on)
> 
> I'm deeply sorry for the loss of your younger Son, & truly sorry to hear your eldest suffers from diabetes. My Sons are my life, it would destroy me if anything happened to them, so I really do feel for you, the pain you are going through must be unbearable. Knowing this makes me even more puzzled why you are still a staunch supporter of leave though. Not only do we know there will be medical shortages but we know it will mean the end of our NHS MM. People aware of the realities, with (& without ) sick loved ones, are frightened to death. I'm terrified for my children, for sick family members & friends. The government are stockpiling body bags & rubber bullets. The tories are playing brinkmanship with the lives of 64 million people. Is brexit worth the life of even one person?












Impossible to discuss anything rationally with someone who suffers from extreme Confirmation Bias

https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/video/defining-confirmation-bias

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-confirmation-bias-2795024

*We interpret facts to confirm our beliefs*


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Looks like May's Deal might get through after all ...
> 
> [Graham] Brady [Chair of the 1922 Committee; he of 'the Brady Amendment'] told the _Observer_ last night that his intention had always been to "ensure that the backstop could not assume a permanent status, trapping the UK in the EU customs union". He added: "As long as the attorney general [Sir Geoffrey Cox] is able to assure the House that he has a legally binding guarantee that the backstop can only be temporary, I would accept that and would urge others to accept it."​
> I think he will get the words he wants, though I'm not sure what the legal definition of 'temporary' might be, so then it will be down to the ERG and the Labour rebels.


I haven't had time yet to do any research on the above, but have just found this in my inbox which seems to be related to what you've posted.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion about it.

https://reaction.life/history-sugge...m_campaign=3a9d087982-15/10+Iain+Martin's+new

*History suggests the EU can offer the UK something on the backstop*


----------



## KittenKong

Better late than never as the saying goes should this be true.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ps-to-back-second-brexit-referendum-1-5915246


----------



## Elles

If we view the Eu as brexiteers do, it could be that the Eu are using the backstop to keep the U.K. in. 

If no one agrees to it we end up staying in, or we have a second referendum. The house have said they won’t agree to no deal, so it’s worth the Eu risking it. 

Why would they give concessions on a backstop that guarantees them either a Britain that is inside the Eu to all intents and purposes, but has no say in it, which for the Eu and member countries would be cause for celebration, or a return to pre referendum, with the U.K. clear that it won’t leave regardless of people’s votes. Again leaving the U.K. in a weaker position than before, not that the U.K. had much say in the Eu previously anyway.

The Irish backstop it seems is a gift to the Eu, as are Remainers in government insisting on a people’s vote and/or no deal being taken off the table. Theresa May was on a losing wicket before she started. With MPs prepared to leave their respective parties over it, the Eu must be very happy.


----------



## KittenKong

Seems they are some sensible Etonians after all.









https://inews.co.uk/news/business/g...?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp


----------



## Calvine

Alan Jackdon said:


> I won't be putting you on ignore though


 You likely won't need to put Arnie83 on ignore. But after a while, for the sake of your sanity, you may find one or two you'd rather remained incognito. But welcome to the forum anyway, Alan.


----------



## KittenKong

They don't only want to shut the "Remoaners" up, seems they want to shut up their own for peddling lies too.
:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seems they are some sensible Etonians after all.
> 
> View attachment 395553
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/business/g...?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp


Sorry mate! Kevin McCloud was educated at Dunstable Grammar School. not Eton as you're claiming!

*Born in Bedfordshire, McCloud and his two brothers, Terence and Graham, were raised in a house his parents had built.[1] His father, Donald, was a rocket scientist and McCloud credits his mechanical interests to him.[2] McCloud attended Dunstable Grammar School, which became Ashton Middle School, and then studied the history of art and architecture at Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, where he was a member of the Footlights comedy ensemble alongside Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie.*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I haven't had time yet to do any research on the above, but have just found this in my inbox which seems to be related to what you've posted.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear your opinion about it.
> 
> https://reaction.life/history-suggests-eu-can-offer-uk-something-backstop/?utm_source=Web+Signup&utm_campaign=3a9d087982-15/10+Iain+Martin's+new
> 
> *History suggests the EU can offer the UK something on the backstop*


It certainly sounds as though it is quite possible, and the noises coming from Brady & co suggest that it might be enough to get the deal through.

The Commons did vote to get rid of the backstop altogether as it stands in the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with 'alternative arrangements' but that isn't going to happen, so this would seem to be a compromise on both sides. And to be fair, the EU don't want the UK in a long term, let alone permanent, backstop arrangement because it gives the UK advantages over EU Members. (Which is why I thought the whole argument was a bit paranoid anyway.)

The real negotiations are still to come, with the closeness of the relationship between the EU and the UK still undecided within the Tory party. My current thinking is that the Brexiteers will grab the chance to get out by supporting May's deal, and then carry on the argument having achieved their main goal. But I've been wrong before!!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Better late than never as the saying goes should this be true.
> 
> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ps-to-back-second-brexit-referendum-1-5915246
> 
> View attachment 395538


I don't think it will happen. There are too many Labour MPs dead set against the idea, and enough will be prepared to defy the whip (a la Corbyn throughout his career) to stop it.

So much for democracy, in my opinion.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear...
















https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ling-as-hs2-contractor-bechtel-sues-5hdrpdrnc


----------



## rona

I see The Times reckons we'll be slaughtering and burning loads of animals because of a glut of meat......................... 

I thought we were all supposed to starve or pay loads or import from America?

Can't seem to make up their minds can they?
What they can try and do is make everyone fearful


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It certainly sounds as though it is quite possible, and the noises coming from Brady & co suggest that it might be enough to get the deal through.
> 
> The Commons did vote to get rid of the backstop altogether as it stands in the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with 'alternative arrangements' but that isn't going to happen, so this would seem to be a compromise on both sides. And to be fair, the EU don't want the UK in a long term, let alone permanent, backstop arrangement because it gives the UK advantages over EU Members. (Which is why I thought the whole argument was a bit paranoid anyway.)
> 
> The real negotiations are still to come, with the closeness of the relationship between the EU and the UK still undecided within the Tory party. My current thinking is that the Brexiteers will grab the chance to get out by supporting May's deal, and then carry on the argument having achieved their main goal. But I've been wrong before!!


Thank you for your, as always, balanced reply which is much appreciated

I'm hoping, at long last the silly season for MP's has ended and having (hopefully) finished throwing their toys out of the cot they'll put the wishes of the people first by supporting May:s deal. I think if the Withdrawal Deal does go through, preliminary talks in Brussels will progress quite rapidly, because after all, the EU will want to get well shot of us before the May 23 EU elections.

I realise May's deal leaves much to be desired but delaying making a decision over it isn't going to improve it? So like you I hope sufficient MP's (of all parties) will support the deal so that finally the UK can get down to the real business of negotiating our future relationship with the EU.

We'll see!


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> I would expect nothing less as actual facts are not of interest to you. Perhaps you (and @noushka05) should try actually thinking and coming to your own conclusions rather than just posting reams and reams of other people's thoughts. At least @Arnie83 does give his own thoughts, even if he does gloss over some actual facts to support his point of view.
> 
> Here's a tip, the more rubbish you read on how bad brexit will be the more your search engine will show you only anti-brexit content. Delete your browser and all it's cookies then install a new browser and you'll get a far greater range of results.


Hello 'Alan'. Another pf member used to keep saying the_ exact same thing_. Almost like brexiters cant think for themselves.:Smuggrin One bonus of the looming brexit catastrophe is I'll be able to drag up this post when reality bites you on the bottom & you'll be faced with the reality of what you actually voted for :Cigar I bet you cant wait for us to 'take back control' of our country so we can give it to Donald Trump:Greedy



Arnie83 said:


> If you read the "Summary of US UK Negotiating Objectives" recently published by the US,it makes pretty scary reading. Basically it says that they want full unfettered access to our markets in goods and services, without any petty regulations like the above, and they want protections for their own markets. I think it's from Donald Trump's "Art of the We've-Got-You-Over-A-Barrel Deal".
> 
> But even if they start talking on 1st April they won't be able to conclude any deal at all since what we can offer is dependent on what we agree with the EU over the next 2 years.


If we crash out, won't we be desperate to fast track a deal though Arnie?

Seen this Arnie? This is what 'taking back control' looks like

*Femi*‏:
America just published its plans for UK-US trade post-Brexit.

1) Private US firms to have equal access to UK government contracts.

2) UK must automatically accept US pharmaceuticals

3) They want to be able to sue our government in a special court if we don't. https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf …












Magyarmum said:


> Impossible to discuss anything rationally with someone who suffers from extreme Confirmation Bias
> 
> https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/video/defining-confirmation-bias
> 
> https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-confirmation-bias-2795024
> 
> *We interpret facts to confirm our beliefs*


 And the facts suggest brexit is going great don't they?? LMAO You're the one who endorses a well know far right propaganda site. You're the one who endorses pathological liars like John Redwood. You really are the best at projection MM. Brextremists (exactly like climate change deniers) are the ones suffering from massive confirmation bias this is why they are completely immune to evidence, facts & expertise because they challenge their 'beliefs'.

The whole Brexit thing is the worst case of unrealistic magical thinking I have ever seen. It is completely detached from reality - based on ideological beliefs, that if we just leave the EU everything will be magically better or will be fine. This is just a delusional groupthink, peddled by the right wing media for decades. 'Make Britain Great again'?? It was all propaganda I'm afraid @Magyarmum .

.And once again only the climate change deniers 'liked' your post. That is no coincidence 



Elles said:


> If we view the Eu as brexiteers do, it could be that the Eu are using the backstop to keep the U.K. in.
> 
> If no one agrees to it we end up staying in, or we have a second referendum. The house have said they won't agree to no deal, so it's worth the Eu risking it.
> 
> Why would they give concessions on a backstop that guarantees them either a Britain that is inside the Eu to all intents and purposes, but has no say in it, which for the Eu and member countries would be cause for celebration, or a return to pre referendum, with the U.K. clear that it won't leave regardless of people's votes. Again leaving the U.K. in a weaker position than before, not that the U.K. had much say in the Eu previously anyway.
> 
> The Irish backstop it seems is a gift to the Eu, as are Remainers in government insisting on a people's vote and/or no deal being taken off the table. Theresa May was on a losing wicket before she started. With MPs prepared to leave their respective parties over it, the Eu must be very happy.


Wow how can people STILL have no understanding of this issue? Its not only shocking, its unreal This is OUR mess. We chose to leave. There has to be a backstop or it will mean a hard border separating NI & ROI. And anyone who would risk violating the Good Friday Agreement needs to take a long hard look at themselves.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I see The Times reckons we'll be slaughtering and burning loads of animals because of a glut of meat.........................
> 
> I thought we were all supposed to starve or pay loads or import from America?
> 
> Can't seem to make up their minds can they?
> What they can try and do is make everyone fearful


Ssssssssssssssh Talk like that is treasonable don't ya know!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Hello 'Alan'. Another pf member used to keep saying the_ exact same thing_. Almost like brexiters cant think for themselves.:Smuggrin One bonus of the looming brexit catastrophe is I'll be able to drag up this post when reality bites you on the bottom & you'll be faced with the reality of what you actually voted for :Cigar I bet you cant wait for us to 'take back control' of our country so we can give it to Donald Trump:Greedy
> 
> If we crash out, won't we be desperate to fast track a deal though Arnie?
> 
> Seen this Arnie? This is what 'taking back control' looks like
> 
> *Femi*‏:
> America just published its plans for UK-US trade post-Brexit.
> 
> 1) Private US firms to have equal access to UK government contracts.
> 
> 2) UK must automatically accept US pharmaceuticals
> 
> 3) They want to be able to sue our government in a special court if we don't. https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the facts suggest brexit is going great don't they?? LMAO You're the one who endorses a well know far right propaganda site. You're the one who endorses pathological liars like John Redwood. You really are the best at projection MM. Brextremists (exactly like climate change deniers) are the ones suffering from massive confirmation bias this is why they are completely immune to evidence, facts & expertise because they challenge their 'beliefs'.
> 
> The whole Brexit thing is the worst case of unrealistic magical thinking I have ever seen. It is completely detached from reality - based on ideological beliefs, that if we just leave the EU everything will be magically better or will be fine. This is just a delusional groupthink, peddled by the right wing media for decades. 'Make Britain Great again'?? It was all propaganda I'm afraid @Magyarmum .
> 
> .And once again only the climate change deniers 'liked' your post. That is no coincidence
> 
> Wow how can people STILL have no understanding of this issue? Its not only shocking, its unreal This is OUR mess. We chose to leave. There has to be a backstop or it will mean a hard border separating NI & ROI. And anyone who would risk violating the Good Friday Agreement needs to take a long hard look at themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I'm hoping, at long last the silly season for MP's has ended and having (hopefully) finished throwing their toys out of the cot they'll put the wishes of the people first by supporting May:s deal. I think if the Withdrawal Deal does go through, preliminary talks in Brussels will progress quite rapidly, because after all, the EU will want to get well shot of us before the May 23 EU elections.
> 
> I realise May's deal leaves much to be desired but delaying making a decision over it isn't going to improve it? So like you I hope sufficient MP's (of all parties) will support the deal so that finally the UK can get down to the real business of negotiating our future relationship with the EU.
> 
> We'll see!


Well, once again it won't effect you personally unless her ending of FoM backfires on her. I do hope you've applied for Hungarian citizenship.

May's deal will please no one but herself. Arguably it will delay the inevitable for another year or so, but that's another 18 months of uncertainty and worry for many people.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Well, once again it won't effect you personally unless her ending of FoM backfires on her. I do hope you've applied for Hungarian citizenship.
> 
> May's deal will please no one but herself. Arguably it will delay the inevitable for another year or so, but that's another 18 months of uncertainty and worry for many people.


How do you know it won't affect me personally or that it hasn't already?

Please tell me as you obviously know something I don't..

Why should I apply for Hungarian citizenship, when I'm more than happy to be British?

Once again please tell me as I'll be fascinated to hear your reasons for my doing so.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you for your, as always, balanced reply which is much appreciated


I second that !  Thank you to @Arnie83


----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook

VICARS DAUGHTER IN POLITICAL BRIBERY SCHEME. CAN THIS BE HAPPENING IN THE UK?

From Mirror Politics. 

We like to think that bribing MPs is something that takes place in other countries.

When you think of pork barrel politics you think of sleazy US senators building bridges in Alaska or South American representatives finding the cash for medical centres in their political backyards.

So it is sobering to realise that not only is this ugly practice thriving in the UK but its biggest practitioner is a vicar’s daughter who lives in Downing Street.

Not content with spending £1billion on bribing the DUP, Theresa May has today announced a £1.6billion fund for Britain’s ‘left behind areas.’ 

This is, of course, a blatant backhander to try to persuade Labour MPs to back her withdrawal agreement when it is represented to the Commons.

Some of them will be wrestling with their conscience in the same way charities struggle to find the right moral path when offered a donation by a tobacco company.

Their constituencies desperately need the money but they also know that it should not have taken Brexit for Mrs May to cough up the cash.

If anything, they are being bought on the cheap. 
This is only £600million more than she has given the 10 DUP MPs and is barely a drop in the ocean compared with what is required.

As Jack Blanchard has pointed out in his morning Playbook the amount being offered is substantially less than Nick Clegg’s £3.2billion regional growth fund which was axed by the Conservatives after the 2015 general election.

Labour’s Ruth Smeeth told the Westminster Hour last night: “This is less money than is being taken out of my economy by the introduction of Universal Credit over the next four years. It’s an extraordinarily pathetic amount of money.”

But what does it say about Mrs May’s way of doing politics?

There is an unquestionable case for extra investment in towns and former industrial areas across the UK.
The Prime Minister could have answered this need in any event but she only did so in order to save her own political skin.

This is not being in government to serve people, it is being in government to serve yourself.

And she still has the cheek to primly lecture others from the dispatch box on political ethics.

It will be a failure of Parliament if there is not a statement by Sajid Javid on knife crime today.

There are no easy solutions to this problem but there are reasons why violent crime is on the rise.

If you take Birmingham, for example, the number of police is the lowest since 1974.

At the same time, youth unemployment is up and youth services are almost non-existent.

Last week the council announced it was cutting another 1,000 staff. 

Austerity has consequences.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> If we crash out, won't we be desperate to fast track a deal though Arnie?
> 
> Seen this Arnie? This is what 'taking back control' looks like


I have indeed seen it; it's part of the Summary of US UK Negotiating Objectives that I mentioned in my post.

Were we to crash out with No Deal it would be the very worst time to start negotiating with Trump's America, and I honestly don't believe we would be so stupid as to do so (would we?).

The EU will remain our biggest trading partner for many years to come. Despite all the noise from the ERG about the glorious opportunities of a US trade deal, it remains 3000 miles away and no amount of negotiations will bring it any closer. Dover to Calais is 30 miles. The gravity model of international trade remains robust (though, amusingly, the ERG like to say there are 'questions' about it without actually specifying any of them, let alone any alternative answers.) It would be monumentally stupid to conclude a trade deal with the US that precluded a deal with the EU, however desperate we might be for an apparent 'win'. The EU deal must come first.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> From Facebook
> 
> VICARS DAUGHTER IN POLITICAL BRIBERY SCHEME. CAN THIS BE HAPPENING IN THE UK?
> 
> From Mirror Politics.
> 
> We like to think that bribing MPs is something that takes place in other countries.
> 
> When you think of pork barrel politics you think of sleazy US senators building bridges in Alaska or South American representatives finding the cash for medical centres in their political backyards.
> 
> So it is sobering to realise that not only is this ugly practice thriving in the UK but its biggest practitioner is a vicar's daughter who lives in Downing Street.
> 
> Not content with spending £1billion on bribing the DUP, Theresa May has today announced a £1.6billion fund for Britain's 'left behind areas.'
> 
> This is, of course, a blatant backhander to try to persuade Labour MPs to back her withdrawal agreement when it is represented to the Commons.
> 
> Some of them will be wrestling with their conscience in the same way charities struggle to find the right moral path when offered a donation by a tobacco company.
> 
> Their constituencies desperately need the money but they also know that it should not have taken Brexit for Mrs May to cough up the cash.
> 
> If anything, they are being bought on the cheap.
> This is only £600million more than she has given the 10 DUP MPs and is barely a drop in the ocean compared with what is required.
> 
> As Jack Blanchard has pointed out in his morning Playbook the amount being offered is substantially less than Nick Clegg's £3.2billion regional growth fund which was axed by the Conservatives after the 2015 general election.
> 
> Labour's Ruth Smeeth told the Westminster Hour last night: "This is less money than is being taken out of my economy by the introduction of Universal Credit over the next four years. It's an extraordinarily pathetic amount of money."
> 
> But what does it say about Mrs May's way of doing politics?
> 
> There is an unquestionable case for extra investment in towns and former industrial areas across the UK.
> The Prime Minister could have answered this need in any event but she only did so in order to save her own political skin.
> 
> This is not being in government to serve people, it is being in government to serve yourself.
> 
> And she still has the cheek to primly lecture others from the dispatch box on political ethics.
> 
> It will be a failure of Parliament if there is not a statement by Sajid Javid on knife crime today.
> 
> There are no easy solutions to this problem but there are reasons why violent crime is on the rise.
> 
> If you take Birmingham, for example, the number of police is the lowest since 1974.
> 
> At the same time, youth unemployment is up and youth services are almost non-existent.
> 
> Last week the council announced it was cutting another 1,000 staff.
> 
> Austerity has consequences.


If I remember rightly you were the one who was quite adamant in stating that you NEVER read any of the Sleaze Press like the Sun, Daily Fail, Express or the MIRROR!

Amazing how fickle people can be when it suits them?????


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Thank you for your, as always, balanced reply which is much appreciated
> 
> I'm hoping, at long last the silly season for MP's has ended and having (hopefully) finished throwing their toys out of the cot they'll put the wishes of the people first by supporting May:s deal. I think if the Withdrawal Deal does go through, preliminary talks in Brussels will progress quite rapidly, because after all, the EU will want to get well shot of us before the May 23 EU elections.
> 
> I realise May's deal leaves much to be desired but delaying making a decision over it isn't going to improve it? So like you I hope sufficient MP's (of all parties) will support the deal so that finally the UK can get down to the real business of negotiating our future relationship with the EU.
> 
> We'll see!


I would actually like May's deal to be put to the people, which means it would have to be rejected by the Commons since there is no way on earth May would go to the people for confirmation if it was agreed in Parliament.

I think the people would actually accept it in preference to Remain - so we'd end up in the same place - but I think that would go quite a long way towards healing the rift between 'Leavers' and 'Remainers'. A confirmation that "Yes, we do want to leave and these terms will do" would, for me and, I believe, most others who voted Remain in 2016, be an end to the matter. (Talk of neverendums has always been silly.) Almost anything else, because of the democratically unsatisfactory nature of the first campaign, will, I think, mean that the rift continues unhealed for years.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> If I remember rightly you were the one who was quite adamant in stating that you NEVER read any of the Sleaze Press like the Sun, Daily Fail, Express or the MIRROR!
> 
> Amazing how fickle people can be when it suits them?????


The Daily Mirror is a 'Labour' paper, hardly the supporters of the Tory Party!

Nevertheless, it's hardly my cup of tea being a Guardian reader...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The Daily Mirror is a 'Labour' paper, hardly the supporters of the Tory Party!
> 
> Nevertheless, it's hardly my cup of tea being a Guardian reader...


What a peculiar answer

I think you missed the point entirely!:Banghead


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> The Daily Mirror is a 'Labour' paper, hardly the supporters of the Tory Party!
> 
> Nevertheless, it's hardly my cup of tea being a Guardian reader...


The Guardian is so biased it might as well have 'Propoganda' stamped across the front page


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think all papers support one party or another, the sun is the worse with it's tory lies.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> The Daily Mirror is a 'Labour' paper, hardly the supporters of the Tory Party!
> 
> Nevertheless, it's hardly my cup of tea being a Guardian reader...


I get my news mainly via the Apple news app'. Might be worth you having a look at it, or something similar, as it'll give you new stories from 101 sources (including all your regular newspapers and new channels) from around the world. Far better than picking one channel if you want unbiased news. Just remember to reinstall it regularly so it remains netural.


----------



## Magyarmum

*THE DAILY MASH*

*Sunderland to become futuristic metropolis*
25th June 2016









*SUNDERLAND will become a gleaming, futuristic utopia because Britain is leaving the EU.*

As a reward for voting 'leave' the city will also be the first in the country to get hover-boards.

Brexit supporters said the hover-boards would be easy to pay for 'because'.

Sunderland resident, Martin Bishop, said: "Now that we're liberated from the Nazis and have a genuine working class hero like Boris Johnson, this place will be like The Jetsons in no time."

Elsewhere in the North East, Middlesbrough will receive two new hospitals a week paid for by the £4.2 billion a year that Britain will definitely save and was not a massive lie.

Meanwhile, EU-supporting Newcastle will be bulldozed as a warning to all traitors.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> *THE DAILY MASH*
> 
> *Sunderland to become futuristic metropolis*
> 25th June 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SUNDERLAND will become a gleaming, futuristic utopia because Britain is leaving the EU.*
> 
> As a reward for voting 'leave' the city will also be the first in the country to get hover-boards.
> 
> Brexit supporters said the hover-boards would be easy to pay for 'because'.
> 
> Sunderland resident, Martin Bishop, said: "Now that we're liberated from the Nazis and have a genuine working class hero like Boris Johnson, this place will be like The Jetsons in no time."
> 
> Elsewhere in the North East, Middlesbrough will receive two new hospitals a week paid for by the £4.2 billion a year that Britain will definitely save and was not a massive lie.
> 
> Meanwhile, EU-supporting Newcastle will be bulldozed as a warning to all traitors.


Could do with some money up here


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Could do with some money up here


I don't know where you live but this was in this morning's newspaper

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...d-fund-for-brexit-backing-towns-idUSKCN1QK0QY

*Brexit bribe? PM May unveils £1.6 billion fund for Brexit-backing towns*

I'll now retire to my bomb shelter!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I don't know where you live but this was in this morning's newspaper
> 
> https://www.reuteIrs.com/article/uk...d-fund-for-brexit-backing-towns-idUSKCN1QK0QY
> 
> *Brexit bribe? PM May unveils £1.6 billion fund for Brexit-backing towns*
> 
> I'll now retire to my bomb shelter!


I think your link has an extra 'l' in it!

The 'bribe' hasn't been universally well received, but I don't think it will make a whole heap of difference.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I think your link has an extra 'l' in it!
> 
> The 'bribe' hasn't been universally well received, but I don't think it will make a whole heap of difference.


I've "redone" the link and it's working for me ..... hope it works for you!


----------



## jenny armour

Do you think when we leave, will we negotiate any trade deals with the Commonwealth Countries?


----------



## stuaz

jenny armour said:


> Do you think when we leave, will we negotiate any trade deals with the Commonwealth Countries?


I don't see why not. We need to replace the ones we will lose after all!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> *THE DAILY MASH*
> 
> *Sunderland to become futuristic metropolis*
> 25th June 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SUNDERLAND will become a gleaming, futuristic utopia because Britain is leaving the EU.*
> 
> As a reward for voting 'leave' the city will also be the first in the country to get hover-boards.
> 
> Brexit supporters said the hover-boards would be easy to pay for 'because'.
> 
> Sunderland resident, Martin Bishop, said: "Now that we're liberated from the Nazis and have a genuine working class hero like Boris Johnson, this place will be like The Jetsons in no time."
> 
> Elsewhere in the North East, Middlesbrough will receive two new hospitals a week paid for by the £4.2 billion a year that Britain will definitely save and was not a massive lie.
> 
> Meanwhile, EU-supporting Newcastle will be bulldozed as a warning to all traitors.


Little old ladies enjoying illicit freedom of movement in EU will be rounded up and burnt at stake, failing that due to Brexit related fuel shortages will be placed in Sport Direct and Amazon replacing fleeing EU nationals...after 10 years on good behaviour might be pardoned and allowed to bask in luxury of Sunderland...


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> I don't see why not. We need to replace the ones we will lose after all!


Imagine the visas quotes they will get...
India already said so... big country, can spare a million or two...won't even notice...


----------



## Arnie83

jenny armour said:


> Do you think when we leave, will we negotiate any trade deals with the Commonwealth Countries?


Absolutely, and we are already chatting 'informally' with the bigger economies - e.g. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India.

But (there's always a 'but'!) we already have a deal (CETA) with Canada through the EU, and Australia & New Zealand are negotiating with the EU and may have concluded deals by the time we leave (at the end of transition) so we may have little to gain through renegotiation of those, and we may lose, since we only a fifth the size of the EU. And India have already made clear that an easing of visa requirements is one of their negotiating aims, which has obvious problems for us, especially with non-EU immigration at record levels.

Many of the others - e.g. there are 19 Commonwealth countries in Africa - already have tariff free access to our market via the EU arrangements for developing economies, so they may not want to negotiate a deal which could see them lose out. And the economies of most Commonwealth countries are not big enough to make very much difference.

A bit pessimistic again, I'm afraid, but the promises of new global trade being the huge benefit of Brexit have always been very much overstated by the leading Brexiteers, and (a bit of a giveaway) never have any indicative / target figures attached to them.


----------



## rona

Mmm I wonder why they can't deal with us and the EU at the same time...................What's that called now?


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


>


You cited an earlier statement by the diabetes organisation JDRF because if fit your beliefs & when I posted an updated statement by the same organisation you ignored it. This is a classic example of confirmation bias. And this is why I keep comparing brextremists to climate change deniers (often one & the same). When something is seen as advantageous to a deniers argument they will accept this part of climate science without question. Whereas when climate change deniers find other parts of climate science inconvenient to their argument, they will just refuse to accept it. You couldn't get better examples of cherry picking & confirmation bias than debating with a brextremist/ CC denier .

So, do you accept leaving the EU is gambling with millions of lives? Or are you going to ignore or dismiss it?

*he Lancet*‏Verified account @TheLancet Feb 26
New Health Policy analysis: #*Brexit* will cause significant harm to the #*NHS*, but No-Deal *Brexit* presents by far the worst option https://hubs.ly/H0gMJll0










#


Arnie83 said:


> I have indeed seen it; it's part of the Summary of US UK Negotiating Objectives that I mentioned in my post.
> 
> Were we to crash out with No Deal it would be the very worst time to start negotiating with Trump's America, and I honestly don't believe we would be so stupid as to do so (would we?).
> 
> The EU will remain our biggest trading partner for many years to come. Despite all the noise from the ERG about the glorious opportunities of a US trade deal, it remains 3000 miles away and no amount of negotiations will bring it any closer. Dover to Calais is 30 miles. The gravity model of international trade remains robust (though, amusingly, the ERG like to say there are 'questions' about it without actually specifying any of them, let alone any alternative answers.) It would be monumentally stupid to conclude a trade deal with the US that precluded a deal with the EU, however desperate we might be for an apparent 'win'. The EU deal must come first.


Thank you for your opinion, I wish I shared your optimism though. Deregulation is at the heart of tory ideology & if we do that trade deal with the USA then our standards will be forced to drop. The backstop seems to be our saviour too at the moment.

Did you see this the other night Arnie?






The highly respected Compassion in World Farming are really worried. Do you really believe they scaremongering too, @rona @kimthecat @Elles ?

*Compassion in World Farming*‏Verified account @ciwf Mar 1
_*We're appalled that the US trade negotiation objectives for a post-Brexit trade deal include a drastic reduction in animal welfare and health restrictions on imports to the UK. 1/3 https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ss-to-uk-food-markets-after-brexit-trade-deal

The proposal from the US Trade Representative would effectively end the chlorine chicken ban, the beef-hormone ban and the ractopamine pork ban being in food on UK supermarket shelves. This is flatly unacceptable and would destroy much of British farming as we know it. 2/3

If the US trade negotiation objectives for a post-Brexit trade deal are approved it would betray every commitment by the Government to maintain British standards. We are urging support for amendments to the Agriculture and Trade Bills to nail down that commitment in law. 3/3*_



AlexPed2393 said:


> The Guardian is so biased it might as well have 'Propoganda' stamped across the front page


No you're wrong Alex. The Guardian has some of the best journalists and writers & it doesnt present opinion pieces as 'news' as most of the popular right wing press does.

'This is the great media bias fact checking site endorsed by @Magyarmum on The Guardian. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/


*Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record.*
*Detailed Report*
Factual Reporting: *HIGH

*
If more people read the Guardian they would KNOW fighting climate change is THE greatest & most urgent challenge we face. Brexit & Trump could not have happened a a worse time in our history 



Magyarmum said:


> I don't know where you live but this was in this morning's newspaper
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...d-fund-for-brexit-backing-towns-idUSKCN1QK0QY
> 
> *Brexit bribe? PM May unveils £1.6 billion fund for Brexit-backing towns*
> 
> I'll now retire to my bomb shelter!


Imagine being gullible enough to believe there was no 'magic money tree' for our NHS? For students? For millions of people suffering because of tory austerity?



Magyarmum said:


> I'm hoping, at long last the silly season for MP's has ended and having (hopefully) finished throwing their toys out of the cot they'll put the wishes of the people first by supporting May:s deal


Without giving people a say on the deal, how can you possibly know Mays deal is the wishes of the people?  I thought brexiters voted to 'take back control??? Didn't even some brexiters on this thread say they didn't want Mays deal? Its an absolutely abysmal deal.








Magyarmum said:


> I realise May's deal leaves much to be desired but delaying making a decision over it isn't going to improve it? So like you I hope sufficient MP's (of all parties) will support the deal so that finally the UK can get down to the real business of negotiating our future relationship with the EU.


So you argued for leave now you don't think we should accept a dreadful deal? Sounds about right My MP better have the balls to vote it down!

(please let Edwin know if you find any mistakes  )

 Edwin Hayward:
_Here's a handy at-a-glance comparison of Theresa May's proposed Brexit deal, no deal, and staying in the EU (please let me know if I've made any mistakes). Oh, and please share and RT if you found it useful. Thanks._


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Mmm I wonder why they can't deal with us and the EU at the same time...................What's that called now?


Because we'll be forced to lower our standards & the EU will not allow things in which do not meet their high standards. Its quite simple really.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Mmm I wonder why they can't deal with us and the EU at the same time...................What's that called now?


Who?

(The answer is probably that they can, but I don't quite follow what you mean. Sorry!)


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Mmm I wonder why they can't deal with us and the EU at the same time...................What's that called now?


It's more likely I expect that they won't be able to negotiate better deals with us than they have with the Eu, than none at all. Are you meaning Protectionism?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> It's more likely I expect that they won't be able to negotiate better deals with us than they have with the Eu, than none at all. Are you meaning Protectionism?


Yes. Why wouldn't they want deals with both unless they are being penalised for it?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> I don't know where you live but this was in this morning's newspaper
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...d-fund-for-brexit-backing-towns-idUSKCN1QK0QY
> 
> *Brexit bribe? PM May unveils £1.6 billion fund for Brexit-backing towns*
> 
> I'll now retire to my bomb shelter!


North East/ County Durham area. Classic Labour area


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> No you're wrong Alex. The Guardian has some of the best journalists and writers & it doesnt present opinion pieces as 'news' as most of the popular right wing press does.


Are you mental? Every newspaper going has a bleeding agenda and every 'news' outlet can say they hire the best journalists and writers on the planet. Doesn't stop those writers having an opinion. That does not mean they put the facts out there, but how they utilise factual data and what context they put them in creates a bias.
I am not saying any other news outlet is better I'm just saying its tunnel vision to think that the Guardian is free of all bias just because you like what they write.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/

_Throughout its history, The Guardian has always been a left-wing publication as they have stated in various articles.

In review, story selection favors the left, but is generally factual. They utilize emotionally loaded headlines such as "The cashless society is a con - and big finance is behind it" and "Trump back-pedals on Russian meddling remarks after outcry". The Guardian typically utilizes credible sources such as thoughtco.com, gov.UK, HuffPost, independent.co.uk, and the Miami Herald.

A factual search reveals that the Guardian has a clean fact check record.

Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)
_
For example you pulled the quote that you liked the most from the page you linked, not the stuff you don't like. Come on @noushka05 do better!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Whatever one's views on Brexit, surely this isn't right...








https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/gran-71-who-moved-uk-15916425


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I think all papers support one party or another, the sun is the worse with it's tory lies.


Collectively, the Sun, Mail, Express and the Telegraph are as bad as each other.


----------



## KittenKong

Typical Tory. He even blames his own colleagues for his incompetence.
:Hilarious

https://news.sky.com/story/grayling...333m-no-deal-brexit-contracts-payout-11655673


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Mmm I wonder why they can't deal with us and the EU at the same time...................What's that called now?





noushka05 said:


> Because we'll be forced to lower our standards & the EU will not allow things in which do not meet their high standards. Its quite simple really.





Elles said:


> It's more likely I expect that they won't be able to negotiate better deals with us than they have with the Eu, than none at all. Are you meaning Protectionism?





rona said:


> Yes. Why wouldn't they want deals with both unless they are being penalised for it?


I'm probably being very dense here, (and @noushka05 has probably answered the question) but I'm not sure where protectionism comes into it, unless the standards required by the EU (or anyone else) are seen as a form of protectionism. And if they are then I think the idea is to protect the consumers rather than the home-based producers. And the rules apply to all companies within the EU as well, of course, so it isn't as though they are being given an unfair advantage over external producers, which is what protectionism would require.

Certainly, if the UK agrees to stay in a Customs Union / Single Market-type arrangement with the EU and has a coordinated 'rule book' - as per the Political Declaration - then we won't be able to accept 'lower' standard products from elsewhere and maintain frictionless trade with our biggest market. But that choice is ours. There is little doubt that we could lower prices by lowering standards, thereby facilitating cheaper production methods. But would we - the public - think that is a good idea?

Dunno if that is a relevant response to what you were getting at @rona but please respond if it wasn't, and I'll try again!


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Whatever one's views on Brexit, surely this isn't right...
> View attachment 395823
> 
> https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/gran-71-who-moved-uk-15916425


Why not? my dad has had to prove his right to stay, been living here for 30 years


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.ie/business...aY4403ZG0xfNBigaNjA1AjZATjUvnf5-CCrP5BOxs2-As


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why not? my dad has had to prove his right to stay, been living here for 30 years


You agree with that? Why? You haven't forgotten the Windrush scandal have you?

If you were talking about citizens from other EU countries coming to the UK having taken advantage of FoM I'd sort of understand where you're coming from as UK citizens will have to do the same if they wish to continue living in other EU countries.

The message this is implying is, citizens who came to the UK, be it 1940-2016, are now seen as potentially 'hostile'.

Why was it OK to move to the UK in 1960, but not now for example? It's like applying for and getting rights to remain living in the UK at that time is no longer applicable.

I think it's disgusting quite frankly.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> You agree with that? Why? You haven't forgotten the Windrush scandal have you?
> 
> If you were talking about citizens from other EU countries coming to the UK having taken advantage of FoM I'd sort of understand where you're coming from as UK citizens will have to do the same if they wish to continue living in other EU countries.
> 
> The message this is implying is, citizens who came to the UK, be it 1940-2016, are now seen as potentially 'hostile'.
> 
> Why was it OK to move to the UK in 1960, but not now for example? It's like applying for and getting rights to remain living in the UK at that time is no longer applicable.
> 
> I think it's disgusting quite frankly.


I don't know if it's my bias against Brexit (it probably has something to do with it) but I do get the impression that we're treating EU migrants almost as metaphorically 'guilty' unless they can prove their 'innocence' rather than the other way round. The atmosphere definitely seems hostile, and I find that a shame.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> You agree with that? Why? You haven't forgotten the Windrush scandal have you?
> 
> If you were talking about citizens from other EU countries coming to the UK having taken advantage of FoM I'd sort of understand where you're coming from as UK citizens will have to do the same if they wish to continue living in other EU countries.
> 
> The message this is implying is, citizens who came to the UK, be it 1940-2016, are now seen as potentially 'hostile'.
> 
> Why was it OK to move to the UK in 1960, but not now for example? It's like applying for and getting rights to remain living in the UK at that time is no longer applicable.
> 
> I think it's disgusting quite frankly.


It has nothing to do with the Windrush scandal, he was from Norway so not in the EU. It's not implying them to be 'hostile' it's to ensure everything is in order. Just because there is the potential for a teeny tiny amount of people to be hostile doesn't mean they view everyone as such.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I don't know if it's my bias against Brexit (it probably has something to do with it) but I do get the impression that we're treating EU migrants almost as metaphorically 'guilty' unless they can prove their 'innocence' rather than the other way round. The atmosphere definitely seems hostile, and I find that a shame.


This is a better reply, I do feel that in some areas this 'guilty till proven innocent' attitude is there but a lot of people are over reacting as to how complicated the process really is and how quick it is to sort out.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> This is a better reply, I do feel that in some areas this 'guilty till proven innocent' attitude is there but a lot of people are over reacting as to how complicated the process really is and how quick it is to sort out.


It does rather depend on where you are from as well.

A good friend of mine worked in Kenya for several years and fell in love with a Kenyan man whilst over there - they are now married and have children. He has to apply for a UK visa (again) this year, and that will cost them around £3,500 - they can't be sure of the final cost yet, especially as the prices will be raised in April. Part of that cost is for taking an English exam he's already passed more than once (he is a highly educated medical professional and has a good job here), and (based on experience) the chance of the government department 'losing' part of the paperwork and them incurring extra costs or having to appeal or even apply again is high.

The actual cost to the goverment to process the application is under £500 the last time I looked.

She also says another of her UK friends is forcibly separated from her African husband of many years at the moment, as one of the terms of the visa is you must be in the UK for all but 90 days of the year maximum. Her husband is a highly paid international airline pilot, so would have no problem proving income etc., but the very nature of his job excludes him from being eligible for a visa.

Granted, none of this is directly related to Brexit, but given that the massive cost increases and rule changes only arrived in 2012, I don't see that Brexit will improve matters, somehow.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Are you mental? Every newspaper going has a bleeding agenda and every 'news' outlet can say they hire the best journalists and writers on the planet. Doesn't stop those writers having an opinion. That does not mean they put the facts out there, but how they utilise factual data and what context they put them in creates a bias.
> I am not saying any other news outlet is better I'm just saying its tunnel vision to think that the Guardian is free of all bias just because you like what they write.
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/
> 
> _Throughout its history, The Guardian has always been a left-wing publication as they have stated in various articles.
> 
> In review, story selection favors the left, but is generally factual. They utilize emotionally loaded headlines such as "The cashless society is a con - and big finance is behind it" and "Trump back-pedals on Russian meddling remarks after outcry". The Guardian typically utilizes credible sources such as thoughtco.com, gov.UK, HuffPost, independent.co.uk, and the Miami Herald.
> 
> A factual search reveals that the Guardian has a clean fact check record.
> 
> Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)
> _
> For example you pulled the quote that you liked the most from the page you linked, not the stuff you don't like. Come on @noushka05 do better!!!


What she omitted to mention is that her two favourite Guardian journalists - Owen Jones and George Monbiot are staunch supporters of Venezuela and Maduro as is Naomi Klein, the author of her "Bible" which all Brexiteers are exhorted to read so we'll finally see the error of our ways and repent!.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kirchick-venezuela-pundits-20170802-story.html

*Remember all those left-wing pundits who drooled over Venezuela?*

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/la-times-los-angeles-times/


----------



## kimthecat

Boris looking neat and tidy today . What does this mean !


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> The backstop seems to be our saviour too at the moment.


Are you being serious. The backstop as it stands, with no finite end date or any legal way to exit, is the the greatest threat to our sovereignty since WWII.

At least as a full member of the EU we had Article 50 to exit. It's a shame our remainer PM, and her majority remainer cabinet, decided that since invoking Article 50 the time was better spent trying to keep us in the EU rather than organising a dignified and seamless exit. Leaving the EU goes way beyond a immediate trade deal with them.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Boris looking neat and tidy today . What does this mean !


He's had a hair cut because he's going bald


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> He's had a hair cut because he's going bald


:Hilarious he could have a comb over,


----------



## stuaz

Jesthar said:


> It does rather depend on where you are from as well.
> 
> A good friend of mine worked in Kenya for several years and fell in love with a Kenyan man whilst over there - they are now married and have children. He has to apply for a UK visa (again) this year, and that will cost them around £3,500 - they can't be sure of the final cost yet, especially as the prices will be raised in April. Part of that cost is for taking an English exam he's already passed more than once (he is a highly educated medical professional and has a good job here), and (based on experience) the chance of the government department 'losing' part of the paperwork and them incurring extra costs or having to appeal or even apply again is high.
> 
> The actual cost to the goverment to process the application is under £500 the last time I looked.
> 
> She also says another of her UK friends is forcibly separated from her African husband of many years at the moment, as one of the terms of the visa is you must be in the UK for all but 90 days of the year maximum. Her husband is a highly paid international airline pilot, so would have no problem proving income etc., but the very nature of his job excludes him from being eligible for a visa.
> 
> Granted, none of this is directly related to Brexit, but given that the massive cost increases and rule changes only arrived in 2012, I don't see that Brexit will improve matters, somehow.


Unrelated to Brexit also but not only are the costs to stay in the U.K. high (which is fair enough) but it's also illogical. For example, having to have your fingerprints taken for each visa extension or visa change at a cost of £500 each time. Why? I have no idea, but very frustrating when your visa has to change due to no fault of your own. Once I understand....


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Are you being serious. The backstop as it stands, with no finite end date or any legal way to exit, is the the greatest threat to our sovereignty since WWII.
> 
> At least as a full member of the EU we had Article 50 to exit. It's a shame our remainer PM, and her majority remainer cabinet, decided that since invoking Article 50 the time was better spent trying to keep us in the EU rather than organising a dignified and seamless exit. Leaving the EU goes way beyond a immediate trade deal with them.


Yes I am, Its absolutely despicable that people would throw Ireland under a bus. Brexit is getting more like a cult everyday to the people who want it no matter the cost!


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Are you mental? Every newspaper going has a bleeding agenda and every 'news' outlet can say they hire the best journalists and writers on the planet. Doesn't stop those writers having an opinion. That does not mean they put the facts out there, but how they utilise factual data and what context they put them in creates a bias.
> I am not saying any other news outlet is better I'm just saying its tunnel vision to think that the Guardian is free of all bias just because you like what they write.
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/
> 
> _Throughout its history, The Guardian has always been a left-wing publication as they have stated in various articles.
> 
> In review, story selection favors the left, but is generally factual. They utilize emotionally loaded headlines such as "The cashless society is a con - and big finance is behind it" and "Trump back-pedals on Russian meddling remarks after outcry". The Guardian typically utilizes credible sources such as thoughtco.com, gov.UK, HuffPost, independent.co.uk, and the Miami Herald.
> 
> A factual search reveals that the Guardian has a clean fact check record.
> 
> Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)
> _
> For example you pulled the quote that you liked the most from the page you linked, not the stuff you don't like. Come on @noushka05 do better!!!


No i'm not mental Alex. I bet if I'd said that to a a leave voter I'd have been jumped on like a ton of bricks, but hey ho.

You said:


AlexPed2393 said:


> The Guardian is so biased it might as well have 'Propoganda' stamped across the front page


Of course its left of centre bias, I would never dispute otherwise. Have you even bothered to read the media fact checking sites assessement which you're quoting Because its centre left bias that does not mean its _so biased it might as well have 'Propoganda' stamped across the front page_ as you stated! The Guardian is a reliable source for FACTS as the site states. That you choose to deny this is an example of YOUR confirmation bias.

Unlike many media outlets Journalists at the Guardian have editorial freedom & unlike the right wing gutter press the Guardian does not peddle 'opinion' as 'news'.

And I see @Magyarmum has liked your post - and this is another example of her confirmation bias.



Magyarmum said:


> Now why did I expect a reply like that!
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> _*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> *These media sources are slightly to moderately conservative in bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor conservative causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Right-Center sources.*
> 
> *Factual Reporting: HIGH*
> 
> *Notes: WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes pro-Brexit news. There is little use of loaded language and all information is sourced. We classify WestMonster as right-center biased based on support for Brexit and endorsement of the right wing Tory political party. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017)*
> 
> *Source: http://www.westmonster.com/*


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I think I'm going to have to buy a black hat so that I'm suitably attired when posting what seem to be Eeyore comments on news like this!


I've just been scanning the thread & this caught my eye & I'm not sure what you mean could you explain why you'd have to buy a black hat? Mrs Zee's (Eeyore) posts are always well researched so it got me wondering if this is comment is negative or maybe not?. Cheers Arnie.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Whatever one's views on Brexit, surely this isn't right...
> View attachment 395823
> 
> https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/gran-71-who-moved-uk-15916425


Seen this Lady KK? Welcome to tory.brexit Britain!

_"We always looked up to Britain, we thought Britain was just fantastic. I'm afraid its not quite the same."..........._

_if watching this lovely 87 year old grandmother doesn't break your heart today you don't have one_

_

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102825644323454976_
_



_


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I've just been scanning the thread & this caught my eye & I'm not sure what you mean could you explain why you'd have to buy a black hat? Mrs Zee's (Eeyore) posts are always well researched so it got me wondering if this is comment is negative or maybe not?. Cheers Arnie.


 The dangers of posting!

A 'black hat' comment is one (as I remember it from long ago when I used to have a proper job) that looked on the gloomy side, or was pessimistic about a suggestion or what appeared to be a positive idea. The 'ah yes, but ...' sort. It just seemed to me that every time e.g. @Magyarmum or @rona posted something that seemed to be good news about Brexit I'd come in with a reason why it wasn't quite so good after all. So just a sort of apology for not being more optimistic; but it's those damned facts getting in the way again!

Pooh's (A A Milne's) Eeyore was a good example of someone (in his case a donkey!) always looking on the gloomy side,like Marvin the Paranoid Android. No link to the marvellous Mrs Zee intended, let alone criticism.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Yes I am, Its absolutely despicable that people would throw Ireland under a bus. Brexit is getting more like a cult everyday to the people who want it no matter the cost!


Errr, no. It's the remain camp that is cult like with its illogical witch hunt for a PM and her cabinet which are doing their very best to remain in the EU. You lot make no sense whatsoever.

As I said, if from day one of invoking article 50 the government had started preparations for leaving the EU the Irish border would have been resolved months, or even years ago.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Seen this Lady KK? Welcome to tory.brexit Britain!
> 
> _"We always looked up to Britain, we thought Britain was just fantastic. I'm afraid its not quite the same."..........._
> 
> _if watching this lovely 87 year old grandmother doesn't break your heart today you don't have one_
> 
> _
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102825644323454976_
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _


Yes Noushka I have seen this. Whether people support Brexit or not I fail to understand how anyone could support this.

Perhaps it should be presented another way?

Imagine loving America. In 1971 You apply for a green card which, after a long period is granted giving you the right to live and work there for good. You marry, have children, become very much American yourself and well respected in the community.

Then, a President elected some 45 years later unilaterally decides those green cards are no longer valid and would have to be applied for again at considerable expense with no guarantee of acceptance.

This is exactly what a vile racist like Theresa May has done.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I wonder if May really understands what she is doing to people lives, people not feeling secure here anymore wondering if they families are going to be split up, others wondering if their jobs are safe, or is it she just doesn't care.:Rage


----------



## Snoringbear

More winning for the car industry.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/05/bmw-mini-cowley-no-deal-brexit-toyota


----------



## Happy Paws2

We wont make in the UK soon with all these companies threatening to leave if we don't get a deal, which is becoming more likely. What the hell is May doing to us.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Little old ladies enjoying illicit freedom of movement in EU will be rounded up and burnt at stake, failing that due to Brexit related fuel shortages will be placed in Sport Direct and Amazon replacing fleeing EU nationals...after 10 years on good behaviour might be pardoned and allowed to bask in luxury of Sunderland...


Never! Uncle Viktor has declared me one of Hungary's national treasures and as such has appointed his friend Attila the Hun (plus his army) to protect me against marauding third country-nistas like you from trying to kidnap and hold me for ransom in order to pay off the national debt.

Watch out 'cos anyone wot tries is likely to get a bum full of arrows! You have been warned!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> The dangers of posting!
> 
> A 'black hat' comment is one (as I remember it from long ago when I used to have a proper job) that looked on the gloomy side, or was pessimistic about a suggestion or what appeared to be a positive idea. The 'ah yes, but ...' sort. It just seemed to me that every time e.g. @Magyarmum or @rona posted something that seemed to be good news about Brexit I'd come in with a reason why it wasn't quite so good after all. So just a sort of apology for not being more optimistic; but it's those damned facts getting in the way again!
> 
> Pooh's (A A Milne's) Eeyore was a good example of someone (in his case a donkey!) always looking on the gloomy side,like Marvin the Paranoid Android. No link to the marvellous Mrs Zee intended, let alone criticism.


I dont know who you are replying to but there's nothing wrong with being objective . 

Mrs Zee is Eeyore. Zaros and Mrs Zee, I understand , had separate accounts but had a collective one, Eeyore. Mrs Zee resigned from PF but uses the Eeyore one.

meanwhile Momentum have been fined and the Tories accused of Islamophobia. Same old , same old.

PMQs today and May and Corbyn will be fighting it out.
They should put them in the stocks and throw rotten eggs at them .


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> As I said, if from day one of invoking article 50 the government had started preparations for leaving the EU the Irish border would have been resolved months, or even years ago.


How?



kimthecat said:


> I dont know who you are replying to but there's nothing wrong with being objective .
> 
> Mrs Zee is Eeyore. Zaros and Mrs Zee, I understand , had separate accounts but had a collective one, Eeyore. Mrs Zee resigned from PF but uses the Eeyore one.


I believe @Arnie83 was referring to Eeyore in the context of the actual AA Milne character, not the PF account called Eeyore


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I believe @Arnie83 was referring to Eeyore in the context of the actual AA Milne character, not the PF account called Eeyore


 Yes, He did say no link intended . I did,t see the post he was replying to . I was making it clear for those who didn't know that the poster Eeyore on PF is Mrs Zee


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...rostar-at-gare-du-nord-in-paris-a4084316.html

France prepares for Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...rostar-at-gare-du-nord-in-paris-a4084316.html
> 
> France prepares for Brexit.


I often think I should point out - so in this case will - that although I've 'liked' the post, that doesn't mean I necessarily like what is reported in it, just that I like that you have posted it, and / or find it informative. When 'like' is all you've got it isn't always possible to make that clear!


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...rostar-at-gare-du-nord-in-paris-a4084316.html
> 
> France prepares for Brexit.


If you read the whole article you will notice they were only using one X-ray machine to deliberately slow the process. So all they have shown is when (if) Brexit happens, and all X-ray machines are being used, the disruption will obviously be minimal. They've kind of shot them selves in the foot with this. But the French do like a good protest!


----------



## Elles

Are the French really that inefficient? Seems they’ve made themselves look pretty useless. Don’t they have technology in France?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Are the French really that inefficient? Seems they've made themselves look pretty useless. Don't they have technology in France?


The Channel Tunnel was never designed for strict customs and excise checks that will soon be needed for each individual visitor to France and vice versa for the respective citizens. That's what FoM and the customs union is all about.

It's Theresa May and her government that insisted the revert back to such checks just like in the 'good old days'.

France didn't force her to trigger Article 50 after all.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> The dangers of posting!
> 
> A 'black hat' comment is one (as I remember it from long ago when I used to have a proper job) that looked on the gloomy side, or was pessimistic about a suggestion or what appeared to be a positive idea. The 'ah yes, but ...' sort. It just seemed to me that every time e.g. @Magyarmum or @rona posted something that seemed to be good news about Brexit I'd come in with a reason why it wasn't quite so good after all. So just a sort of apology for not being more optimistic; but it's those damned facts getting in the way again!
> 
> Pooh's (A A Milne's) Eeyore was a good example of someone (in his case a donkey!) always looking on the gloomy side,like Marvin the Paranoid Android. No link to the marvellous Mrs Zee intended, let alone criticism.


As someone who was mentioned I thought I might as well add my ha'penth for what it's worth.

As far as I'm concerned you have nothing to apologise for nor any need to consider the wearing of a hat, black or otherwise!

We might not agree over Brexit but that doesn't mean I dismiss your posts out of hand, simply because your views don't coincide exactly with mine.On the contrary, because your replies are always balanced and objective, I do spend time thinking about what you have said and considering whether my own position is biased or not.

Unfortunately, unlike you, not everyone is moderate in their criticism, there are those who seem to believe that theirs is the only point of view, that they are right, and anyone who disagrees with them must be labelled, chastised and pilloried in order to force them to accept that their point of view is the right one!

Strangely it seems to be particular to the PF forum, but none of the other forums I belong to. Sad really, because I'm certain such an attitude must be off putting to those who might otherwise contribute and make this thread far more interesting and varied.

The fact is that irrespective of the side you're on, none of us have the power of foresight and therefore although we can speculate all we like the truth of the matter is that only time will tell who, if any of us, were right!.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> that only time will tell who, if any of us, were right!.


I don't think I'm going to be granted that opportunity 

Never did really believe it


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Jesthar said:


> How?


I know not what the details would be, it's not my area of expertise (if you want to negotiate a commercial lease get in touch though). BUT with two or more years to plan for the U.K. ACTUALLY leaving the EU something would have to be arranged (it's in the EU's interest well). Instead our remainer PM and cabinet have been concentrating on staying in the EU and the Ireland border only considered in the eleventh hour (it no doubt wasn't seen as a issue if we weren't actually leaving). Bloody remainers have created this whole mess.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> I know not what the details would be, it's not my area of expertise (if you want to negotiate a commercial lease get in touch though). BUT with two or more years to plan for the U.K. ACTUALLY leaving the EU something would have to be arranged (it's in the EU's interest well). Instead our remainer PM and cabinet have been concentrating on staying in the EU and the Ireland border only considered in the eleventh hour (it no doubt wasn't seen as a issue if we weren't actually leaving). Bloody remainers have created this whole mess.


Blame remainers?

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> Blame remainers?
> 
> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Surprised you find it funny. It's anything but, we should have had two or more years to sort out the details but because of remainers (from the PM downwards) thinking they could keep us tied to the EU leaving was never a option for them. Hence the mess we are in. Hope you are proud of siding against democracy, just goes to show what happens when democracy is ignored.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> The dangers of posting!
> 
> A 'black hat' comment is one (as I remember it from long ago when I used to have a proper job) that looked on the gloomy side, or was pessimistic about a suggestion or what appeared to be a positive idea. The 'ah yes, but ...' sort. It just seemed to me that every time e.g. @Magyarmum or @rona posted something that seemed to be good news about Brexit I'd come in with a reason why it wasn't quite so good after all. So just a sort of apology for not being more optimistic; but it's those damned facts getting in the way again!
> 
> Pooh's (A A Milne's) Eeyore was a good example of someone (in his case a donkey!) always looking on the gloomy side,like Marvin the Paranoid Android. No link to the marvellous Mrs Zee intended, let alone criticism.


Thank you for explaining Arnie. Hope I didn't offend you in any way by asking, I was just curious what it meant thats all 



Alan Jackdon said:


> Errr,
> 
> As I said, if from day one of invoking article 50 the government had started preparations for leaving the EU the Irish border would have been resolved months, or even years ago.


As Jesthar says; how??



KittenKong said:


> Yes Noushka I have seen this. Whether people support Brexit or not I fail to understand how anyone could support this.
> 
> Perhaps it should be presented another way?_t_
> 
> Imagine loving America. In 1971 You apply for a green card which, after a long period is granted giving you the right to live and work there for good. You marry, have children, become very much American yourself and well respected in the community.
> 
> Then, a President elected some 45 years later unilaterally decides those green cards are no longer valid and would have to be applied for again at considerable expense with no guarantee of acceptance.
> 
> This is exactly what a vile racist like Theresa May has done.


Well said KK!



kimthecat said:


> I dont know who you are replying to but there's nothing wrong with being objective .
> 
> Mrs Zee is Eeyore.  Zaros and Mrs Zee, I understand , had separate accounts but had a collective one, Eeyore. Mrs Zee resigned from PF but uses the Eeyore one.
> 
> meanwhile Momentum have been fined and the Tories accused of Islamophobia. Same old , same old.
> 
> PMQs today and May and Corbyn will be fighting it out.
> They should put them in the stocks and throw rotten eggs at them .


I simply asked Arnie a question because I didn't understand something. Now you seem to be stirring.

And unless Zaros or Mrs Zee have told you (which I find highly unlikely) how could you possibly know this?? _Zaros and Mrs Zee, I understand , had separate accounts but had a collective one, Eeyore. _Eeyore is not a collective account, it is Mrs Zees account & I know Mrs Zee told a mod who she was when she rejoined as Eeyore.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The fact is that irrespective of the side you're on, none of us have the power of foresight and therefore although we can speculate all we like the truth of the matter is that only time will tell who, if any of us, were right


We KNOW we'll be worse off with Mays deal or if we crash out without a deal. We KNOW leaving the EU will be disastrous for our NHS. This isnt speculation, these are the FACTS.

Brexit is gambling with peoples lives! You think its worth taking that risk??

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford

_*"There will inevitably be delays to cancer treatment as a result of the Brexit process." * - Royal College of Radiologists

This is truly and utterly disgraceful. @theresa_may is putting politics above patients' lives._

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47462762


----------



## noushka05

@Magyarmum



noushka05 said:


> So, do you accept leaving the EU is gambling with millions of lives? Or are you going to ignore or dismiss it?
> 
> *he Lancet*‏Verified account @TheLancet Feb 26
> New Health Policy analysis: #*Brexit* will cause significant harm to the #*NHS*, but No-Deal *Brexit* presents by far the worst option https://hubs.ly/H0gMJll0


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Surprised you find it funny. It's anything but, we should have had two or more years to sort out the details but because of remainers (from the PM downwards) thinking they could keep us tied to the EU leaving was never a option for them. Hence the mess we are in. Hope you are proud of siding against democracy, just goes to show what happens when democracy is ignored.


Hmmm.... What democracy I ask? We've been through this before so I will not repeat my profound disrespect for a result based on lies and law breaking.

The Irish Border was _always _going to be a stumbling block whether you accuse Theresa May of being a remainer or not. The ROI were never going to succumb to leaving the EU themselves and join the UK however extreme Brexiters are.

During the referendum, it should've been emphasised they would have to be the return of a border between NI and the ROI as there was in the past. Would have saved them an awful lot of bother.

Then, had they done so Leave probably wouldn't have won.

You accuse people like me for not getting behind Brexit for its up and coming failure?

The failure is purely on the idiots in government whether they originally backed leave or remain.

They never did any proper research into what Brexit would mean by relying on fantasy rather than advice from experts.

Then, I predicted this would happen.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> I know not what the details would be, it's not my area of expertis


Well there you go! Maybe you ought to listen to those who actually know what they're talking about then?

*The Irish Border*‏: _There's me at the Brexit negotiations.








_


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I wonder if May really understands what she is doing to people lives, people not feeling secure here anymore wondering if they families are going to be split up, others wondering if their jobs are safe, or is it she just doesn't care.:Rage


She never shed a tear for those wrongly sacked, imprisoned then deported during the Windrush 1 scandal (as it should be called). Nor did she shed a tear for the Grenfell fire victims. Yet she did when the snap GE election backfired on her she told reporters.

Says it all about her personality doesn't it.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I don't think I'm going to be granted that opportunity
> 
> Never did really believe it


An opportunity to gamble with all our futures. My childrens furures!

Funny that you used TTIP as an excuse to vote leave now we're heading for TTIP on steroids - silence. Yet another example of brexiters extreme confirmation bias.

.
*Molly Scott Cato MEP*‏ :
_Britain should embrace US farming methods to agree trade deal, says ambassador Meat drenched in hormones, environmentally destructive levels of chemical inputs, genetically modified crops: this is future of food if we leave EU and sign trade deal with US

........_


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Well there you go! Maybe you ought to listen to those who actually know what they're talking about then?


Well you've not shown anything from anyone who knows what they talking about regarding exiting the EU. All you've posted are ramblings from those pro remaining, hardley experts on leaving.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Well you've not shown anything from anyone who knows what they talking about regarding exiting the EU. All you've posted are ramblings from those pro remaining, hardley experts on leaving.


Yes I have. Have you ever considered for a moment, that 'pro remaining experts' are pro remaining for good reason?


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Well you've not shown anything from anyone who knows what they talking about regarding exiting the EU. All you've posted are ramblings from those pro remaining, hardley experts on leaving.


Noushka has frequently posted _independent _features that are not directly attributed to pro remain or leave, such as on climate change for example.

Seeing most pro Brexit politicians are climate change deniers, or at least would welcome a considerable reduction in standards such as food treated with banned (by the EU) pesticides etc. it would hardly be surprising the experts that warn of this will be more likely to support EU membership.

I guess you'd consider Chris Grayling and co as Brexit experts :Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Unfortunately, unlike you, not everyone is moderate in their criticism, there are those who seem to believe that theirs is the only point of view, that they are right, and anyone who disagrees with them must be labelled, chastised and pilloried in order to force them to accept that their point of view is the right one!


It's the superiority, condescension and assumption that anyone who disagrees is a buffoon that has made me put some of them on ignore. That plus the way they repeat themselves for weeks.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Have you ever considered for a moment, that 'pro remaining experts' are pro remaining for good reason?


Have you ever considered for a moment that pro leaving experts are pro leaving for good reason?


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Have you ever considered for a moment that pro leaving experts are pro leaving for good reason?


What pro leave experts?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> What pro leave experts?


They are many : Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage, Liam Fox, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Theresa May, The Sun, Telegraph, Express, Daily Mail, Boris Johnson, Dominic Rabb, David Davies. I can go on!:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

[


KittenKong said:


> They are many : Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage, Liam Fox, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Theresa May, The Sun, Telegraph, Express, Daily Mail, Boris Johnson, Dominic Rabb, David Davies. I can go on!:Hilarious


Hilarious:Hilarious

And lets not forget Minford, leave voters expert economist who himself stated we'd have to run down the car industry;

_incredible Jacob Rees-Mogg continues to cite economist Patrick Minford who said on UK car industry "you are going to have to run it down...in same way we ran down the coal & steel industries" & then denies what we're seeing has anything to do with Brexit_
_

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092323366533505025_


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> It's the superiority, condescension and assumption that anyone who disagrees is a buffoon that has made me put some of them on ignore. That plus the way they repeat themselves for weeks.


I know what you mean, but I'd never put them on ignore, I'd lose the entertainment value


----------



## rona

https://www.moneywise.co.uk/news/20...would-now-be-less-we-feared-says-bank-england

Seems that the experts predictions are slowly changing.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Surprised you find it funny. It's anything but, we should have had two or more years to sort out the details but because of remainers (from the PM downwards) thinking they could keep us tied to the EU leaving was never a option for them. Hence the mess we are in. Hope you are proud of siding against democracy, just goes to show what happens when democracy is ignored.


Hostile forces have undermined our democracy via the referendum SWC.

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏ @GeorgeMonbiot 20h20 hours ago
_Whether Leave or Remain, you should all watch this report about @Arron_banks's involvement with Russian interests. The crucial question becomes ever louder: What was the origin of the £8m he channelled into the Leave Campaign?_

_If democracy means anything in this country, Brexit should not proceed until this and other questions have been answered. Until then, we have no idea whether the referendum met basic standards of fairness._

_



_


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> https://www.moneywise.co.uk/news/20...would-now-be-less-we-feared-says-bank-england
> 
> Seems that the experts predictions are slowly changing.


For the economy & its still going to be terrible. Don't you care about all the other areas it affects? What about our NHS??

Who says Brexit's bad for the NHS?

British Medical Association 
Royal College of Nurses 
Royal College of GPs 
Royal College of Midwives
Royal College of Radiologists

Who says Brexit's good for the NHS?

A big red ****in bus nobody's seen in years!

...............................................................................


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> An opportunity to gamble with all our futures. My childrens furures!
> 
> Funny that you used TTIP as an excuse to vote leave now we're heading for TTIP on steroids - silence. Yet another example of brexiters extreme confirmation bias.
> 
> .
> *Molly Scott Cato MEP*‏ :
> _Britain should embrace US farming methods to agree trade deal, says ambassador Meat drenched in hormones, environmentally destructive levels of chemical inputs, genetically modified crops: this is future of food if we leave EU and sign trade deal with US
> 
> ........_


You're making this very personal, people are allowed their political views without this sort of comment.

By the way with the guardian post, I genuinely meant to say they do post facts but that they dress them with context to paint it in their narrative as stated in the article, just like every other news outlet or journalist. I think I was trying to get to the end of my post too quickly without checking my writing


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Are the French really that inefficient? Seems they've made themselves look pretty useless. Don't they have technology in France?


Come on.... they're French


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> They are many : Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage, Liam Fox, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Theresa May, The Sun, Telegraph, Express, Daily Mail, Boris Johnson, Dominic Rabb, David Davies. I can go on!:Hilarious


You mention Theresa May, god you are so wrong she was a remainer from the very beginning.

Also I know this isn'[t a popular opinion but have you listened to Nigel Farage in the European Parliament talks? He conducts himself very well there and it shows how intelligent he actually is.
Yes he had said mad things and this march on downing street is stupid to say the least, you cannot say he is a good conversationist and gets a lot of his facts right when in the European Parliament talks.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You're making this very personal, people are allowed their political views without this sort of comment.
> 
> By the way with the guardian post, I genuinely meant to say they do post facts but that they dress them with context to paint it in their narrative as stated in the article, just like every other news outlet or journalist. I think I was trying to get to the end of my post too quickly without checking my writing


But brexiters are gambling with my childrens future & thats my opinion.

Amongst other things, we know it will be catastrophic for our NHS. My children depend on that too when they're ill, so its gambling with their lives.

Can you provide me with an example of what you mean please Alex?

.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You mention Theresa May, god you are so wrong she was a remainer from the very beginning.
> 
> Also I know this isn'[t a popular opinion but have you listened to Nigel Farage in the European Parliament talks? He conducts himself very well there and it shows how intelligent he actually is.
> Yes he had said mad things and this march on downing street is stupid to say the least, you cannot say he is a good conversationist and gets a lot of his facts right when in the European Parliament talks.


Can't speak for KK, but Farage is a racist, a proven liar, hypocrite & a national embarrassment.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> But brexiters are gambling with my childrens future & thats my opinion.
> 
> Amongst other things, we know it will be catastrophic for our NHS. My children depend on that too when they're ill, so its gambling with their lives.
> 
> Can you provide me with an example of what you mean please Alex?
> 
> .


Here is an example of what I mean in the Guardian. It is these opinion articles that don't go out of their way to be too radical but just slowly introduce language to get you on their side of thinking. Which is their job I'm all for freedom of speech.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-eu-hard-brexiteersn-eurosceptics-brussels

Yes you can have the opinion that your childrens future may be getting gambled on BUT the way you phrase it as an attack (I can't think of a better term) is just plain rude. You are entitled to that opinion but there is no need for bad manners surrounding it.

I just ask you to watch at least one of the videos of Farage in the European parliament if he gets your goat then don't as it'll just annoy you


----------



## Snoringbear

rona said:


> https://www.moneywise.co.uk/news/20...would-now-be-less-we-feared-says-bank-england
> 
> Seems that the experts predictions are slowly changing.


So we're still going to be worse off.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Here is an example of what I mean in the Guardian. It is these opinion articles that don't go out of their way to be too radical but just slowly introduce language to get you on their side of thinking. Which is their job I'm all for freedom of speech.
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ing-eu-hard-brexiteersn-eurosceptics-brussels
> 
> Yes you can have the opinion that your childrens future may be getting gambled on BUT the way you phrase it as an attack (I can't think of a better term) is just plain rude. You are entitled to that opinion but there is no need for bad manners surrounding it.
> 
> I just ask you to watch at least one of the videos of Farage in the European parliament if he gets your goat then don't as it'll just annoy you


Yes, thats an opinion piece, And as I tried to explain, unlike much of the right wing press, the guardian does not dress up 'opinion' as news. It clearly separates its opinion pages from its news pages. The Guardian is a very trustworthy source with some of the best journalists. And the Guardian is perhaps the best popular media outlet for learning about climate change & other environmental issues. If people would read it instead of wrongly claiming it peddles propaganda they would be aware that leaving the EU is not what we should be focusing all our attention on. They would know that refugees/migrants/Asylum seekers are not a big threat to this country.

I've based my opinion on hard evidence, so I would say gambling with peoples lives is a bit worse than how I come across. Also it works both ways Alex, I'm only rude to people who are rude to me.

I've watched plenty of Farage videos - he makes me cringe with embarrassement. Single handedly hes probably done more damage to this country than any politician. Though it could be argued Cameron, May, Johnson could be contenders for the title.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Also I know this isn'[t a popular opinion but have you listened to Nigel Farage in the European Parliament talks? He conducts himself very well there and it shows how intelligent he actually is.
> Yes he had said mad things and this march on downing street is stupid to say the least, you cannot say he is a good conversationist and gets a lot of his facts right when in the European Parliament talks.


His behaviour in the European parliament disgusted some of the moderate Brexit supporters. See the original, "Are You In And Out" thread for example.

Yes, he is very intelligent. So was Adolf Hitler.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> https://www.moneywise.co.uk/news/20...would-now-be-less-we-feared-says-bank-england
> 
> Seems that the experts predictions are slowly changing.


I don't know if you read my posts in here, but I'll respond anyway ...

It is of course good news that there has been a reduction in the economic loss predictions for No Deal over the past 3 months, and I'd be interested to see exactly what contingency plans Carney is referring to (I'll have a little dig).

Three points though: Firstly there are 3 weeks to go if No Deal is what will happen, and there is little movement available in that time, so the predicted losses are not going to disappear regardless of actions taken.

Secondly, 2.75% of GDP (the best case scenario) is still nearly £50 billion. Worst case scenario is nearly £100 billion. The government could do quite a lot with the revenue from that. And that's just the bald GDP figures.

Thirdly, projections, as we are repeatedly told, are rarely entirely accurate, but that doesn't mean that they are always too high. Whenever one of the Tory Brexiteers - or anyone else, for that matter - states that Treasury predictions are bound to be wrong because 'no-one knows', what they are saying, logically, is that it could be worse just as easily as better. Because if we knew which way the 'wrongness' leaned, that would require knowledge of the future that they are specifically denying!

Hopefully, though, we won't find out how accurate or otherwise Carney's current predictions for No Deal would be in reality.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Also it works both ways Alex, I'm only rude to people who are rude to me.


Debatable, but I think everyone is getting a little hot headed, not just one side 

In the post you replied to Rona on it wasn't inherently rude to anyone


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Yes, he is very intelligent. So was Adolf Hitler.


You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

If we leave in 3 weeks time with no deal you could knock me down with a feather. I never believed that TM wanted to leave the Eu and have never believed for one second we’d leave without a deal, but rather thought if we left at all it would be in name only, maintaining the status quo as near as is possible. It’s pretty much what her deal does. They keep saying that the backstop will keep us tied to the Eu forever, but Remainers are greedy, it’s stay in or nothing. They’ll vote to extend it and push for a second referendum I expect.

The majority of Parliament, politicians and the House of Lords, unlike the general populace, want to stay in the Eu. If nothing else it’s interesting seeing who is really in charge and I’m not convinced it’s the Russians, the voters, or Hitler lol.


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


As this article shows ........

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-reich-germany-second-world-war-henry-murray-

*In Analysis of the Personality of Adolf Hitler, Harvard psychologist Henry Murray described Hitler as a paranoid 'utter wreck' who was 'incapable of normal human relationships'*

which is hardly a description of Farage!


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> *In Analysis of the Personality of Adolf Hitler, Harvard psychologist Henry Murray described Hitler as a paranoid 'utter wreck' who was 'incapable of normal human relationships'*
> 
> which is hardly a description of Farage!


Be ready for a hailstorm of hate :Bag


----------



## Happy Paws2

I disliked the iron lady thatcher, but the PM may takes to it to a new level, evil would be putting it lightly.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler??


It occurs regularly on the thread. Hitler or Stalin (take your pick). And the photo. It's all so repetitive, it might be an idea if people took a break until there was something new to comment on. When in doubt, mention the Nazis.


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


KK has a rather strange obsession with Hitler!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> It occurs regularly on the thread. Hitler or Stalin (take your pick). And the photo. It's all so repetitive, it might be an idea if people took a break until there was something new to comment on. When in doubt, mention the Nazis.


If however one of us should mention anything about the Nazis we're accused of promoting Fascist propaganda ......... Dual standards anyone?

And have you noticed there's a new expression which is being used at every opportunity ...... "confirmation bias" which the OP had never heard of until I used in one of my posts! As they say ....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If we leave in 3 weeks time with no deal you could knock me down with a feather. I never believed that TM wanted to leave the Eu and have never believed for one second we'd leave without a deal, but rather thought if we left at all it would be in name only, maintaining the status quo as near as is possible. It's pretty much what her deal does.


I would agree that it is now looking unlikely that end March will be the leaving date. Reports coming from the direction of Brussels suggest there is no agreement on the 'alternative arrangements' that the Commons told May they wanted.

May's deal doesn't determine the future relationship. We still have 2 years of negotiations and Tory in-fighting before we find out!



Elles said:


> The majority of Parliament, politicians and the House of Lords, *unlike the general populace*, want to stay in the Eu. If nothing else it's interesting seeing who is really in charge and I'm not convinced it's the Russians, the voters, or Hitler lol.


How do you know this? It appeared to be the case in June 2016, but now, when we know what 'leaving' entails? The polls have not had 'Leave' ahead for nearly a year now ...

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Debatable, but I think everyone is getting a little hot headed, not just one side
> 
> In the post you replied to Rona on it wasn't inherently rude to anyone


Fair point x

I was exposing Rona's hypocrisy on TTIP too.



AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


Did you know Farage addressed an AfD rally in Germany? The AfD are neo Nazi's. He has connections with the Alt right in the US, Farage may come across as a man of the people, but hes far from it.



Elles said:


> . I never believed that TM wanted to leave the Eu and have never believed for one second we'd leave without a deal, but rather thought if we left at all it would be in name only, maintaining the status quo as near as is possible. It's pretty much what her deal does


Her deal makes us what the liars like Farage said we are now - a vassel state.



Elles said:


> hey keep saying that the backstop will keep us tied to the Eu forever, but Remainers are greedy, it's stay in or nothing. They'll vote to extend it and push for a second referendum I expect.


The backstop has nothing to do with 'remainers being greedy', its about preserving peace in Northern Ireland & please remember Ireland voted to remain! Selfish brexit supporters dont care about the dangerous implications for them if theres no backstop do they?



Elles said:


> he majority of Parliament, politicians and the House of Lords, unlike the general populace, want to stay in the Eu.


Without another vote, how can you possibly know the general populace want to leave when its so obvious now that its going to be a disaster?



Magyarmum said:


> If however one of us should mention anything about the Nazis we're accused of promoting Fascist propaganda ......... Dual standards anyone?


People can only go on what people post & you're the only one on this thread who has actually gone out of their way & attempt to corroborate a far right outlet as far as I'm aware.



Magyarmum said:


> And have you noticed there's a new expression which is being used at every opportunity ...... "confirmation bias" which the OP had never heard of until I used in one of my posts! As they say ....


The OP? I always thought OP meant original poster? , in which case that would be Janice because she started the thread. Obviously that can't be who you're referring to & it can't be me as confirmation bias is a description I've used frequently on this forum. So who are you referring to?


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


You said that, not me.

I merely said Nigel Farage is very intelligent. So was Adolf Hitler.

Saying two men are intelligent doesn't suggest they are exactly alike!

They are other very intelligent people, Stephen Hawkings and Caroline Lucas come to mind.

Nice try at a distraction to the disaster that is Brexit.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> How do you know this? It appeared to be the case in June 2016, but now, when we know what 'leaving' entails? The polls have not had 'Leave' ahead for nearly a year now ...


And how many polls had leave ahead in 2016? Apart from the one mattered of course!


----------



## noushka05

Led By Donkeys are doing a sterling job exposing the shysters.


----------



## KittenKong

More damn right stupidity and incompetence.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...uc-killing-irish-dup-sinn-feinn-a8812146.html


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seriously comparing and likening Farage to Hitler?? KK that is positively bonkers


Seeing you'd rather listen to Farage perhaps I should let the man himself speak...









https://www.facebook.com/1581272282182775/posts/2151066245203373/


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> You said that, not me.
> 
> I merely said Nigel Farage is very intelligent. So was Adolf Hitler.
> 
> Saying two men are intelligent doesn't suggest they are exactly alike!
> 
> They are other very intelligent people, Stephen Hawkings and Caroline Lucas come to mind.
> 
> Nice try at a distraction to the disaster that is Brexit.


KittenKong likes cats, so did Hitler.... get my jist?


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Seeing you'd rather listen to Farage perhaps I should let the man himself speak...
> 
> View attachment 396027
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/1581272282182775/posts/2151066245203373/


He said we should join the EEA on a temporary agreement to fizzle our way out of Europe, that's not really a radical view at all. It's actually a very well accepted view by a lot of people when it was being discussed


----------



## KittenKong

Leave.com, Leave.uk?:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> He said we should join the EEA on a temporary agreement to fizzle our way out of Europe, that's not really a radical view at all. It's actually a very well accepted view by a lot of people when it was being discussed


So why isn't this being discussed now?

Oh, because EEA membership means protecting our FoM rights wouldn't it.

There was nothing on the 2016 referendum ballot paper to suggest leaving the EEA. Only the EU

Two weeks to Brexit and no one has a ******** clue...


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> KittenKong likes cats, so did Hitler.... get my jist?


Did he? Always thought he was a dog lover.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> So why isn't this being discussed now?
> 
> Oh, because EEA membership means protecting our FoM rights wouldn't it.
> 
> There was nothing on the 2016 referendum ballot paper to suggest leaving the EEA. Only the EU
> 
> Two weeks to Brexit and no one has a ******** clue...


Not being discussed because it was taken off the table earlier by either the EEA, UK or EU, I can't remember.

Correct no-one has a googly moogly what is going on


----------



## Elles

I was being lazy, I was just heading out when I posted it. I should have said “unlike the general populace who voted to leave”. These shenanigans have been going on for over 2 years now. If the general populace today do want to stay in the Eu, I’d hazard a guess that that has been the intention from day one. Like I said, I’m not convinced the Russians etc have as much say as some seem to think.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Did he? Always thought Adolf was a dog lover.


Yeh he had a dog called Blondi. But you must get my jist.

The queen likes dogs, so did Hitler


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> As this article shows ........
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-reich-germany-second-world-war-henry-murray-
> 
> *In Analysis of the Personality of Adolf Hitler, Harvard psychologist Henry Murray described Hitler as a paranoid 'utter wreck' who was 'incapable of normal human relationships'*
> 
> which is hardly a description of Farage!


Your link is broken, but I have heard of that report, and I think a bit of context is important, if you'll indulge me? 

If memory serves, it was written in 1943 with a view to predicting Hitlers actions in war and how to handle him (and the German people) after the war was over. I also recall it being quite heavily Freudian in perspective in a significant number of areas (not really surprising, as Murray was primarily a Jungian psychologist), nor did he speak to anyone who actually knew Hitler, but remote analysis wasn't uncommon in psychoanalysis of the time. It's quite interesting to note that Murray himself, although a vital foudning father of modern psychology, also showed a measure of disregard for his fellow man (some of the psychological experiments he conducted or oversaw both during and after the war can be considered morally and ethically indefensible, and that's only the ones we actually know about), and he was also an advocate of what we would now call the "One World Order" movement.

Now, I don't think anyone can sensibly dispute the 'paranoid' and 'incapable of normal human relationships' parts as a core part of the character of Hitler, but I'd suggest the 'utter wreck' part should probably be considered a temporal development. By 1943 Hitler was indeed in noteable decline both physically and mentally, so it is an accurate assesment of the moment.

However, I would suggest it is unlikely any person you could classify as an 'utter wreck' in _ALL_ aspects of life from childhood would stand very little chance of starting out as an absolute nobody and ending up with a significant part of an entire nation (a nation hitherto regarded as logical and rational) willing to allow him to live his various nefarious fantasies vicariously through them. True, he was never academically intelligent (or physically capable) nor the military genius he believed he was (audacity, surprise, modern tactics, confused enemies and sheer luck played a major part in the early successes), but intelligence comes in many forms, and Hitler was a genius when it came to the art of mass manipulation and control whilst simultaneously persuading those same people that the desires and beliefs he wished for them to hold (in order to exploit them to his ends) were in fact their own desires and beliefs all along.

Of course, this is a very simplified take on things - psychological analysis is a much deeper and broader school of study these days


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 396028
> 
> 
> Leave.com, Leave.uk?:Hilarious


Think it through and you'll realise it won't concern them one iota.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> KK has a rather strange obsession with Hitler!


Yes! I suspect he has a cupboard full of jackboots!!


----------



## MilleD

@Jesthar fascinating post, thanks.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Think it through and you'll realise it won't concern them one iota.


Uneccesary post SWC. Why would I give a damn whether the likes of a far right group would be concerned about that or not?

Just think a name change to Leave.uk would be amusing seeing the UK will soon cease to exist!


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Your link is broken, but I have heard of that report, and I think a bit of context is important, if you'll indulge me?
> 
> If memory serves, it was written in 1943 with a view to predicting Hitlers actions in war and how to handle him (and the German people) after the war was over. I also recall it being quite heavily Freudian in perspective in a significant number of areas (not really surprising, as Murray was primarily a Jungian psychologist), nor did he speak to anyone who actually knew Hitler, but remote analysis wasn't uncommon in psychoanalysis of the time. It's quite interesting to note that Murray himself, although a vital foudning father of modern psychology, also showed a measure of disregard for his fellow man (some of the psychological experiments he conducted or oversaw both during and after the war can be considered morally and ethically indefensible, and that's only the ones we actually know about), and he was also an advocate of what we would now call the "One World Order" movement.
> 
> Now, I don't think anyone can sensibly dispute the 'paranoid' and 'incapable of normal human relationships' parts as a core part of the character of Hitler, but I'd suggest the 'utter wreck' part should probably be considered a temporal development. By 1943 Hitler was indeed in noteable decline both physically and mentally, so it is an accurate assesment of the moment.
> 
> However, I would suggest it is unlikely any person you could classify as an 'utter wreck' in _ALL_ aspects of life from childhood would stand very little chance of starting out as an absolute nobody and ending up with a significant part of an entire nation (a nation hitherto regarded as logical and rational) willing to allow him to live his various nefarious fantasies vicariously through them. True, he was never academically intelligent (or physically capable) nor the military genius he believed he was (audacity, surprise, modern tactics, confused enemies and sheer luck played a major part in the early successes), but intelligence comes in many forms, and Hitler was a genius when it came to the art of mass manipulation and control whilst simultaneously persuading those same people that the desires and beliefs he wished for them to hold (in order to exploit them to his ends) were in fact their own desires and beliefs all along.
> 
> Of course, this is a very simplified take on things - psychological analysis is a much deeper and broader school of study these days


Hopefully this link will work,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_Adolf_Hitler

I've been watching a series about the Third Reich on Viasat History which is not only about Hitler's life and WW2 but all his henchmen as well.

I think it's fair to say they were all psychologically flawed in some way but like Hitler were a product of their time. An interesting article which gives some insight why Hitler was so successful in manipulating the Germans.

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/projects/1920s/Econ20s.htm

Some years ago one of my husband's colleagues was one of the sons of Claus von Staffenberg who was executed by firing squad after the unsuccessful attempt to assassinate Hitler in 1944. I actually felt sorry for him and the way some people would never allow him to forget his father's involvement in the war, despite his being a very young child at the time. I think it's what's called "paying for the sins of the father"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg

J


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> Uneccesary post SWC. Why would I give a damn whether the likes of a far right group would be concerned about that or not?
> 
> Just think a name change to Leave.uk would be amusing seeing the UK will soon cease to exist!


Didn't think you would be able to figure out why it wouldn't matter to them. I suppose just reading and blindly accepting is easier than thinking and questioning.

I'm not @stockwellcat either.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Uneccesary post SWC. Why would I give a damn whether the likes of a far right group would be concerned about that or not?
> 
> Just think a name change to Leave.uk would be amusing seeing the UK will soon cease to exist!


The 'new' member isn't SWC.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> The 'new' member isn't SWC.


Well done Poirot, was the clue in my last post!!


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> Well done Poirot, was the clue in my last post!!


Not at all, mon ami. He, like a good number of others, had you pegged from the start


----------



## Magyarmum

Goody! Must phone my family now and tell them to book their flights for May

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...ghts-in-no-deal-brexit-scenario-idUKKCN1QO1D0

*Britain matches EU offer to maintain flights in no-deal Brexit scenario*

*







*


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Jesthar said:


> Not at all, mon ami. He, like a good number of others, had you pegged from the start


Well you're not as clever as you think you are then.

Why does this happen on forums? A new member turns up on a controversial thread and everyone (well not everyone, but some) start throwing about accusations of you being someone else.

You do realise that without new members forums would die quite quickly? Perhaps you should welcome them rather than result to playground antics.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Goody! Must phone my family now and tell them to book their flights for May
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...ghts-in-no-deal-brexit-scenario-idUKKCN1QO1D0
> 
> *Britain matches EU offer to maintain flights in no-deal Brexit scenario*


It was always a strong candidate for 'special treatment', wasn't it. The biggest danger to flights is that Chris Grayling is still transport secretary!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> It was always a strong candidate for 'special treatment', wasn't it. The biggest danger to flights is that Chris Grayling is still transport secretary!


Last night on CNN, Richard Quest was interviewing the CEO's of various airlines -Ryanair, Lufthansa, EasyJet and others. They all warned there will be delays this summer. Nothing to do with Brexit but due to disputes with Air Traffic Controllers and shortage of air space!

Annoyingly, I can't find anything about it on CNN, and neither can I find any article by the political editor of Politico Brussels, who on the same program stated that Macron and Merkel will make the ultimate decision over Brexit!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It was always a strong candidate for 'special treatment', wasn't it. The biggest danger to flights is that Chris Grayling is still transport secretary!


A candidate for post of the week.
Brilliant!


----------



## Elles

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ic-control-issues-will-disrupt-summer-flights

In the guardian @Magyarmum they have this article about the summer of strikes etc


----------



## Elles

It’s common knowledge that Macron and Merkel have the final word on whether there’s an extension to article 50 which is the important brexit at the moment. Was that what they were talking about?


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> Well you're not as clever as you think you are then.
> 
> Why does this happen on forums? A new member turns up on a controversial thread and everyone (well not everyone, but some) start throwing about accusations of you being someone else.
> 
> You do realise that without new members forums would die quite quickly? Perhaps you should welcome them rather than result to playground antics.


Now, now - I never said what you had been pegged _as_, did I? 

(also, note the use of the  smiley - this is commonly deployed to indicate a post or a subsection thereof has been made in the vein of a lighthearted jest. And I HAVE been watching rather to much Poirot lately...  )


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Jesthar said:


> Not at all, mon ami. He, like a good number of others, had you pegged from the start





Jesthar said:


> Now, now - I never said what you had been pegged _as_, did I?
> 
> (also, note the use of the  smiley - this is commonly deployed to indicate a post or a subsection thereof has been made in the vein of a lighthearted jest. And I HAVE been watching rather to much Poirot lately...  )


Ok I'll take that as a apology and/or my misunderstanding. Either way no hard feelings.

Whilst on the subject of Poirot how did you find John Malkovich's take on the character? I though he he was refreshingly very good.


----------



## KittenKong

Why are many Brexit supporters so aggressive they have to resort to physical violence towards opponents of it?

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk...lted-by-man-shouting-brexit-abuse-in-swindon/

Pro-EU grandmother, 68, physically assaulted by man shouting Brexit abuse in Swindon. "Her attacker ran towards her shouting and swearing anti-EU abuse before kneeing her in the legs, causing large bruising to her thighs. Police are investigating the incident."
The same people who claim a People's Vote would be "anti-democratic" are now resorting to violence and intimidation against people exercising their right to campaign peacefully. Such thugs have no understanding of what democracy means.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...BDAHsq14riQhUrf-bDENtt9pUUhcOsBdPIsD2bnShfIm4


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I was being lazy, I was just heading out when I posted it. I should have said "unlike the general populace who voted to leave". These shenanigans have been going on for over 2 years now. If the general populace today do want to stay in the Eu, I'd hazard a guess that that has been the intention from day one.


Anyone looking objectively can now clearly see brexit is a a complete & utter train wreck, Can see Mays deal is a disaster & no deal a catastrophe, so you dont need to be genius to assume its highly likely many people who voted leave have changed their minds.


Elles said:


> Like I said, I'm not convinced the Russians etc have as much say as some seem to think.


And I'm sure no amount of evidence would convince you otherwise 

Carole Cadwalladr: _*Amazing. The US Senate treads where the British government won't, publishing report on Russian influence on Brexit. It notes: "Nigel Farage, did not just fan anti-EU sentiment but also...provided flattering assessments of Russian President Putin"

Russian bid to influence Brexit vote detailed in new US Senate report
UK political system vulnerable to anti-democratic meddling via social media and 'possibly illicit' campaign funding, report says

*_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...te-detailed-us-senate-report?CMP=share_btn_tw



Calvine said:


> Yes! I suspect he has a cupboard full of jackboots!!


Fascism doesnt arrive in jackboots.


----------



## noushka05

A terrifying glimpse into our soon to be future.

This is path the tories & their brexit has put us on. Bye Bye our amazing NHS.

*Thread*. _Let me tell you a little story about the American medical system, circa today.

This morning, at 5:30 a.m., both my kids woke up not feeling exactly great._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102349466525294594
_At 8:00 a.m., we were the second in line at urgent care. 
Turns out both kids need a relatively common antibiotic to be cleared to go to school tomorrow, as do I as a preventative.

The prescription gets called in to the pharmacy across the street from the urgent care.

We swing by the pharmacy, and realize it doesn't open until 11:00 a.m. I take the kids for a haircut, to the supermarket, for a walk, and then go back to the pharmacy.

When we arrive, we learn that this pharmacy is no longer stocking the antibiotic.

The closest pharmacy stocking it is 21 miles away, and has only one dose.

I game which kid is sicker (it's obvious), resign myself to keeping the other kid home, and pile everyone in the car.

We get to the second pharmacy. _

_ They have one dose.

However, the kid who needs it most isn't showing up in my insurance, which I pay (wait for it) $1182 a month for under Obamacare.

I call the urgent care and get them to clear it with my kid's insurance. This takes FIVE SEPARATE PHONE CALLS.

The pharmacy then tells me that while the kid is now showing on insurance, insurance is saying it won't cover the antibiotic, but if I want to buy the one pill . .

. . . it will cost FIVE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE DOLLARS out of pocket.

Second pharmacy tells me it will fax the urgent care to ask for a substitute. I call to confirm.

THIS TAKES SIX MORE PHONE CALLS.

By this time it is 1:45 p.m.

The urgent care finally forwards a substitute for all three of us. However (wait for it), pharmacy number two doesn't stock the replacement.

PLUS, even though me and both my kids are on the same insurance plan, they're showing that FOR THE REPLACEMENT . . .

. . . my daughter has an $80 copay, BUT MY SON HAS A DEDUCTIBLE that the insurance company claim_s _is unpaid, AND I owe some random number in the middle. 
This makes NO SENSE.

I burst into tears in front of the pharmacist.

He finds me a third pharmacy, another TWENTY MILES AWAY

However, pharmacy number three has only HALF the total doses we need, so I will have to come back for the second round in a few days.

I get into the car and again start sobbing over the steering wheel in front of my kids.

My kids are starving, and mad, and don't understand why this is happening. _

_ We get to pharmacy number 3, and are finally able to get the medicine for all three of us.

My daughter's costs $80. 
My son's costs $280. 
Mine costs $138.73.

It is exactly the same medicine, same dose

The three of us are on the same plan, with the same Rx provisions.

Our deductibles are paid._

_I am a single mother. I am privileged enough to be able afford any insurance at all.

This was our total bill today. 
It took more than seven hours to get the basic medicine my kids need to be cleared for school tomorrow.

I am going to have to fight @BlueShieldCA on this cost._










_If I hadn't had room on my line of credit, I couldn't have paid for this medicine today, my kids would have had to stay home from school until 
I could, and I wouldn't be able to work until then.

The medical system in this country is so f******.

I am so f****** angry

When I lived in France as a college student in 1991, a doctor came to my apartment, examined me, and handed me a prescription equivalent
to the one my family needed today from his bag.

My total out of pocket cost was the equivalent of 75 FF, or $13.01 in today's dollars.

We punish the poor in this country for getting sick. Hell, we punish everyone for getting sick.

Today was one of the worst days of my adulthood.

I can't imagine doing it without insurance and in poverty

The United States is a civilization in decline. 
We do not care about one another.

We stratify each other based on identity and discriminate at will.

Our government officials are largely owned by corporations who are driven by endless greed and no regard for humanity._




_I'm a pragmatic optimist by nature, but after today, I'm saying this._

_ We either the path we're on in short order, or this cou_ntry will be no more.

It's disgusting. Just inhumane.

I'm going to go choke down my antibiotics. Happy Sunday, America.


----------



## Magyarmum

An unpleasant incident but if you read the article properly she's not exactly an innocent party?

[QUOTE "Fellow campaigner Steve Rouse said Victoria had been targeted before: "We've seen her standing up to giant shouting men, towering over her calling her a traitor to her country, demanding that she be jailed or even hanged, just for *arguing against Brexit and had to pull her away"*[/QUOTE]


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> A terrifying glimpse into our soon to be future.
> 
> This is path the tories & their brexit has put us on. Bye Bye our amazing NHS.
> 
> *Thread*. _Let me tell you a little story about the American medical system, circa today.
> 
> This morning, at 5:30 a.m., both my kids woke up not feeling exactly great._
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1102349466525294594
> _At 8:00 a.m., we were the second in line at urgent care.
> Turns out both kids need a relatively common antibiotic to be cleared to go to school tomorrow, as do I as a preventative.
> 
> The prescription gets called in to the pharmacy across the street from the urgent care.
> 
> We swing by the pharmacy, and realize it doesn't open until 11:00 a.m. I take the kids for a haircut, to the supermarket, for a walk, and then go back to the pharmacy.
> 
> When we arrive, we learn that this pharmacy is no longer stocking the antibiotic.
> 
> The closest pharmacy stocking it is 21 miles away, and has only one dose.
> 
> I game which kid is sicker (it's obvious), resign myself to keeping the other kid home, and pile everyone in the car.
> 
> We get to the second pharmacy. _
> 
> _ They have one dose.
> 
> However, the kid who needs it most isn't showing up in my insurance, which I pay (wait for it) $1182 a month for under Obamacare.
> 
> I call the urgent care and get them to clear it with my kid's insurance. This takes FIVE SEPARATE PHONE CALLS.
> 
> The pharmacy then tells me that while the kid is now showing on insurance, insurance is saying it won't cover the antibiotic, but if I want to buy the one pill . .
> 
> . . . it will cost FIVE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE DOLLARS out of pocket.
> 
> Second pharmacy tells me it will fax the urgent care to ask for a substitute. I call to confirm.
> 
> THIS TAKES SIX MORE PHONE CALLS.
> 
> By this time it is 1:45 p.m.
> 
> The urgent care finally forwards a substitute for all three of us. However (wait for it), pharmacy number two doesn't stock the replacement.
> 
> PLUS, even though me and both my kids are on the same insurance plan, they're showing that FOR THE REPLACEMENT . . .
> 
> . . . my daughter has an $80 copay, BUT MY SON HAS A DEDUCTIBLE that the insurance company claim_s _is unpaid, AND I owe some random number in the middle.
> This makes NO SENSE.
> 
> I burst into tears in front of the pharmacist.
> 
> He finds me a third pharmacy, another TWENTY MILES AWAY
> 
> However, pharmacy number three has only HALF the total doses we need, so I will have to come back for the second round in a few days.
> 
> I get into the car and again start sobbing over the steering wheel in front of my kids.
> 
> My kids are starving, and mad, and don't understand why this is happening. _
> 
> _ We get to pharmacy number 3, and are finally able to get the medicine for all three of us.
> 
> My daughter's costs $80.
> My son's costs $280.
> Mine costs $138.73.
> 
> It is exactly the same medicine, same dose
> 
> The three of us are on the same plan, with the same Rx provisions.
> 
> Our deductibles are paid._
> 
> _I am a single mother. I am privileged enough to be able afford any insurance at all.
> 
> This was our total bill today.
> It took more than seven hours to get the basic medicine my kids need to be cleared for school tomorrow.
> 
> I am going to have to fight @BlueShieldCA on this cost._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _If I hadn't had room on my line of credit, I couldn't have paid for this medicine today, my kids would have had to stay home from school until
> I could, and I wouldn't be able to work until then.
> 
> The medical system in this country is so f******.
> 
> I am so f****** angry
> 
> When I lived in France as a college student in 1991, a doctor came to my apartment, examined me, and handed me a prescription equivalent
> to the one my family needed today from his bag.
> 
> My total out of pocket cost was the equivalent of 75 FF, or $13.01 in today's dollars.
> 
> We punish the poor in this country for getting sick. Hell, we punish everyone for getting sick.
> 
> Today was one of the worst days of my adulthood.
> 
> I can't imagine doing it without insurance and in poverty
> 
> The United States is a civilization in decline.
> We do not care about one another.
> 
> We stratify each other based on identity and discriminate at will.
> 
> Our government officials are largely owned by corporations who are driven by endless greed and no regard for humanity._
> 
> 
> _I'm a pragmatic optimist by nature, but after today, I'm saying this._
> 
> _ We either the path we're on in short order, or this cou_ntry will be no more.
> 
> It's disgusting. Just inhumane.
> 
> I'm going to go choke down my antibiotics. Happy Sunday, America.


Lesson there, don't go taking antibiotics for every slightest ailment.

Not sure what it has to with Brexit or the NHS though.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> The 'new' member isn't SWC.


 I agree, for reasons I won't post (not in public anyway). I am sure it isn't altho' at first glance it might have been.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Lesson there, don't go taking antibiotics for every slightest ailment.
> 
> Not sure what it has to with Brexit or the NHS though.


Are you deliberately missing the point?

Brexit has EVERYTHING to do with our NHS.









https://www.healthcareitnews.com/blog/what-could-no-deal-brexit-look-nhs


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Lesson there, don't go taking antibiotics for every slightest ailment.
> 
> Not sure what it has to with Brexit or the NHS though.


Surely it would be up to a Doctor to prescribe antibiotics if they thought them necessary? They can't be bought over the counter you know.

Speaking of the NHS, someone from the other Brexit forum I'm on said he would welcome the demise of the NHS if it meant the funds are diverted to the care sector.

I politely pointed out, knowing the history of the Tory party from Thatcher's reign onwards any money 'saved' would go towards tax cuts for the wealthiest.

Secondly with most of the care services now in the private sector why should any government fund these companies who exist to put profit before care?


----------



## noushka05

Still waiting for that list of leave experts @Alan Jackdon :Yawn


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I agree, for reasons I won't post (not in public anyway). I am sure it isn't altho' at first glance it might have been.


I'm hoping it turns out to be Dr Pepper so I can collect my £100 bet:Smuggrin:Greedy


----------



## KittenKong

Good article:

Welcome to Brexit Britain – From Mirror Politics 

The Tories should be grateful that so much of Westminster’s energy is exhausted on Brexit as it is distracting attention from the serial incompetence of this Cabinet.

There are days when you wonder if ministers have had a secret bet to see who can surpass Chris Grayling’s ability to bring embarrassment upon the government.

Either that or the Whitehall grid has been hijacked by the writers of The Thick of It.

The gaffes by Amber Rudd, Karen Bradley and Andrea Leadsom varied in their severity but they remind you how casually we now excuse behaviour which at one point could have resulted in resignation.

Once Brexit is over then the focus of voters and journalists will return to the competence of the Government. 

They will have time to look at the full horrors of a B-list administration which endangered the peace process, starved public services of funds and was blind to the consequences of austerity.

When this moment comes the verdict may not be pretty.
Initially, it was unclear why Theresa May had decided to give a speech on Brexit today when the failure to make any progress in Brussels on the Irish backstop meant she had nothing new to say.

Now the game plan of No 10 has become clearer: they are playing the only card they have left which is to seek to blame the EU for their own failures.

The Prime Minister will use her speech in Grimsby to lecture Brussels on its responsibility to deliver a deal.
“Just as MPs will face a big choice next week, the EU has to make a choice too. We are both participants in this process.

“It is in the European interest for the UK to leave with a deal,” she will say.

Jeremy Hunt underlined this message, which is hardly going to smooth relations at a critical point in the talks, on the radio this morning when he said that history will judge the EU if it fails to give the UK a deal.

It was perhaps inevitable that a Government which has spent several months saying they wanted to remain good neighbours to our “EU friends” would then seek to malign these supposed friends in order to pander to the worst instincts of the domestic audience and provide cover for their own shortcomings.

You can scapegoat the EU all you want but you cannot hide from the fact that it was Theresa May who insisted on the backstop, triggered Article 50 without any clear negotiating objectives, imposed unrealistic red lines, repeatedly delayed key votes, consistently placed her party’s interests ahead of the country’s and failed to level with voters on the compromises required.

Today's agenda:
Theresa May to make a speech in Grimsby, Lincolnshire on Brexit.
Jeremy Corbyn addresses Scottish Labour conference in Dundee.
The House of Commons and the House of Lords are not sitting.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I'm hoping it turns out to be Dr Pepper so I can collect my £100 bet:Smuggrin:Greedy


He did cross my mind.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> Surely it would be up to a Doctor to prescribe antibiotics if they thought them necessary? They can't be bought over the counter you know.


I presume it's a bit like over here where doctors prescribe them willy nilly.


----------



## Calvine

Alan Jackdon said:


> I presume it's a bit like over here where doctors prescribe them willy nilly.


And they are in much of the food which is produced, apparently.

http://www.saveourantibiotics.org/media/1762/antibiotic-use-in-the-uk-dairy-sector.pdf


----------



## Elles

Antibiotics are in the food chain. They’re fed to livestock. My doctor doesn’t prescribe antibiotics until you’re practically on your death bed. That’s if you haven’t died before you’ve managed to get an appointment.

Though to be fair, much to my astonishment I got an appointment within 2 weeks recently. It’s been nearer 2 months previously. Until a couple of years ago, I hadn’t been to a doctor for over 20 years, so I expected an appointment within a day or two like it used to be. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Robert Prston on Facebook.
This reminds me of the Thatcher government blaming Labour councils for higher Poll Tax in some areas...

The foreign secretary on Today has reinforced the Prime Minister’s Grimsby warning that if she loses the meaningful vote on Tuesday it will be the EU’s fault. 

Hunt warns EU leaders to take care the impasse “doesn’t inject poison into our relations for many years to come” and warns that if the EU doesn’t make further backstop concessions “people will say the EU got this moment wrong”. 

This is a million miles from how EU leaders see the state of negotiations. According to source they believe the “EU has already made its choice to be as helpful as possible on giving legally binding reassurances that the backstop will apply only for as long as necessary”.

It has “submitted various ideas to the UK’s attention this week to clarify issues and reinforce mechanisms to give reassurances that the UK-requested single customs territory or the backstop more generally is not ‘a trap’, but such reassurances are always consistent with the agreed Withdrawal Agreement”. 

The EU “also offered ideas for how to work on alternative arrangements during the transition. And signalled a willingness to rework the Political Declaration”. 

To translate this, the EU sees itself not as intransigent but as being as flexible as it can be, subject to not opening the Withdrawal Agreement, to get the deal over the line, including changing the parameters of the Political Declaration on the future relationship to make it more attractive to MPs in all parties. 

So EU leaders would argue intransigence is on the side of May and her Attorney General Cox. 

And as I said last night they won’t respond well to the PM playing the blame game, especially before her latest moment of truth.

PS In response to what I’ve just written, a member of the cabinet tells me - of EU negotiators - “when we are clear what’s needed to get this over the line, if they choose not to give that, they are choosing to fail”. 

So there you have it, nutshelled. 

The PM is now dug in to a trench that says it is the EU that wishes to blow up Brexit by not doing as she says. 

But the EU would argue that 1) they don’t really know what the PM wants and 2) even if they did they are not persuaded she is right that their capitulation would in fact see her deal ratified by MPs on Tuesday. 

We are almost at our destination: Brexit deal, PM, government all in that Italian-Job bus, hanging over the cliff edge.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Antibiotics are in the food chain. They're fed to livestock. My doctor doesn't prescribe antibiotics until you're practically on your death bed. That's if you haven't died before you've managed to get an appointment.
> 
> Though to be fair, much to my astonishment I got an appointment within 2 weeks recently. It's been nearer 2 months previously. Until a couple of years ago, I hadn't been to a doctor for over 20 years, so I expected an appointment within a day or two like it used to be. :Hilarious


Or on the day, I remember popping in before college started for some stronger antihistamines


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Or on the day, I remember popping in before college started for some stronger antihistamines


It hasn't been on the day down here practically since I was at college lol. That is a very long time ago. :Bag


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> You can scapegoat the EU all you want but you cannot hide from the fact that it was Theresa May who insisted on the backstop, triggered Article 50 without any clear negotiating objectives, imposed unrealistic red lines, repeatedly delayed key votes, consistently placed her party's interests ahead of the country's and failed to level with voters on the compromises required.


Not to mention that the EU did agree a deal with the UK - May's Deal. It was the Commons who rejected it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Antibiotics are in the food chain. They're fed to livestock. My doctor doesn't prescribe antibiotics until you're practically on your death bed. That's if you haven't died before you've managed to get an appointment.
> 
> Though to be fair, much to my astonishment I got an appointment within 2 weeks recently. It's been nearer 2 months previously. Until a couple of years ago, I hadn't been to a doctor for over 20 years, so I expected an appointment within a day or two like it used to be. :Hilarious


I remember in the mid 60's taking my 9 month old son to the doctor for a mild ear infection, only to be told unless it was absolutely necessary, he didn't prescribe antibiotics. His reasoning was if you were prescribed antibiotics for every minor sniff and cold, when you needed them for something really serious, they might not work due to your body having built up a resistance to antibiotics. Which is what is happening now!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...acteria-cold-flu-cough-cold-phe-a8597061.html

*Rise in antibiotic resistant infections in England could put millions at risk and push medicine 'back to dark ages'*


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> Whilst on the subject of Poirot how did you find John Malkovich's take on the character? I though he he was refreshingly very good.


I have to confess I haven't seen it (that I remember), but from what I've read about it I'm not sure - David Suchet has been so good as Poirot-as-Christie-wrote-him, and from what I read the new version appears to deviate so much from that original character (even in backstory, let alone plot) you wonder why they bothered branding it Poirot...

That said, I do rather like the Robert Downey Jr take on Sherlock (even though the plots are absurd  ), but with Sherlock you do at least get the feeling there is more to the character than you get to read about, and he does pull some reasonably good action pieces in the books as well. Poirot, I'm not sure you can take those kinds of liberties with.



Alan Jackdon said:


> Lesson there, don't go taking antibiotics for every slightest ailment.
> 
> Not sure what it has to with Brexit or the NHS though.


I believe it is an illustration of the kind of costs, inconvenieces, stresses and inconsistancies you can expect to incur if the NHS ceases to be and we return to the old ways where all medical care has to be paid for.

I have US based friends; trust me, if you get ill over there, even if you have insurance you avoid going to the doctor at all if possible unless you're very well off (and even then...). Just having a baby (natural delivery, no complications) costs thousands. The number one cause of bankrupcy in the US is medical bills.

Oh, and generally speaking antibiotics haven't been prescribed 'willy nilly' here for quite some time. I've had them precisely twice in my life as far as I recall - some penicillin as a kid, and some turbinifine for athletes foot (a surprise diagnosis, for years I thought it was just a damage toenail after I accidentally kicked a box in bare feet one summer).


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Not to mention that the EU did agree a deal with the UK - May's Deal. It was the Commons who rejected it.


Those on both sides of the debate had every right to oppose it. As a strong remainer I do too, but will not repeat my reasons why as this was discussed earlier.

The fact that Commons have so far rejected it is not the fault of the EU as, after all it was Theresa May who activated A50 in the first place with her anti-immigration obsession at the forefront of her negotiations.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Those on both sides of the debate had every right to oppose it. As a strong remainer I do too, but will not repeat my reasons why as this was discussed earlier.
> 
> The fact that Commons have so far rejected it is not the fault of the EU as, after all it was Theresa May who activated A50 in the first place with her anti-immigration obsession at the forefront of her negotiations.
> 
> View attachment 396129


It would be helpful if, when you post something like the above attachment you gave some indication where it came from! Otherwise it's pretty meaningless.

I tried to trace it back to source using "Search google for image" this is what it came up with .....

About 2 results (0.79 seconds)









Image size:
752 × 800
No other sizes of this image found.
Possible related search: lyrics


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I remember in the mid 60's taking my 9 month old son to the doctor for a mild ear infection, only to be told unless it was absolutely necessary, he didn't prescribe antibiotics. His reasoning was if you were prescribed antibiotics for every minor sniff and cold, when you needed them for something really serious, they might not work due to your body having built up a resistance to antibiotics. Which is what is happening now!
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...acteria-cold-flu-cough-cold-phe-a8597061.html
> 
> *Rise in antibiotic resistant infections in England could put millions at risk and push medicine 'back to dark ages'*


Apparently before long there will not be an antibiotic strong enough as we're all already full of the stuff from what we eat.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I hadn't been to a doctor for over 20 years,


 Haha: Me too! Did you receive ''the letter''? I cannot remember it word for word but the general gist was: ''As we have not seen you for 100 years, please visit the surgery within 21 days of the date of this letter, otherwise you can piss off and we will remove you from our patient list''. Supposedly because so many GP's have ''ghost patients'' on their books who have moved away or been dead for decades but are still being paid for them. When I eventually went in and asked what was going on her reply was: ''These places are run like businesses now.''
I have a friend who loves going to her doctor and is convinced that her GP loves to see her too. As if!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Apparently before long there will not be an antibiotic strong enough as we're all already full of the stuff from what we eat.


Not just from what we eat, but also from misuse and overuse! As well as the fact that bacteria are mutating faster than we can develop antibiotics to kill them

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/antibiotic-resistance-mutation-rates-and-mrsa-28360

*Antibiotic Resistance, Mutation Rates and MRSA*
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/antibiotic-resistance

*Antibiotic resistance*


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Calvine said:


> Haha: Me too! Did you receive ''the letter''? I cannot remember it word for word but the general gist was: ''As we have not seen you for 100 years, please visit the surgery within 21 days of the date of this letter, otherwise you can piss off and we will remove you from our patient list''. Supposedly because so many GP's have ''ghost patients'' on their books who have moved away or been dead for decades but are still being paid for them. When I eventually went in and asked what was going on her reply was: ''These places are run like businesses now.''
> I have a friend who loves going to her doctor and is convinced that her GP loves to see her too. As if!


I didn't even get a letter! Seven or eight years ago I needed to see a doctor (funnily enough needed antibiotics for tonsillitis) and was told I wasn't registered there. Because I hadn't been for twenty odd years they had just taken me off their books and I had to register as a new patient. A letter would have been nice, or simpler still a quickly shifty at the electoral roll would let them know if their patients are still there.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> And they are in much of the food which is produced, apparently.
> 
> http://www.saveourantibiotics.org/media/1762/antibiotic-use-in-the-uk-dairy-sector.pdf





Elles said:


> Antibiotics are in the food chain. They're fed to livesto


The EU is bringing in further restrictions of antibiotic use in livestock. 
*UK could use Brexit to avoid EU ban on antibiotics overuse in farming*
Government may let farmers give antibiotics to healthy animals despite fears it could lead to resistance

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...tibiotics-overuse-in-farming?CMP=share_btn_tw

This is also why people who genuinely care about animal welfare are horrified at the prospect of leaving the EU and signing a trade deal with the USA.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maisie...ck-leaves-u-s-in-the-dust-again/#7852cc0f1a53

Here Is a top US meat lobbyist telling the Trump admin what the industry wants from a Brexit trade deal (end EU rules on hormones, chlorine, antibiotics etc)


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> The EU is bringing in further restrictions of antibiotic use in livestock.
> *UK could use Brexit to avoid EU ban on antibiotics overuse in farming*
> Government may let farmers give antibiotics to healthy animals despite fears it could lead to resistance
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...tibiotics-overuse-in-farming?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> This is also why people who genuinely care about animal welfare are horrified at the prospect of leaving the EU and signing a trade deal with the USA.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/maisie...ck-leaves-u-s-in-the-dust-again/#7852cc0f1a53
> 
> Here Is a top US meat lobbyist telling the Trump admin what the industry wants from a Brexit trade deal (end EU rules on hormones, chlorine, antibiotics etc)


You really can't worry about every possibe thing that MAY or COULD happen, life's to short.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> He did cross my mind.


Going back over Dr Peppers posts, it seems pretty obvious now As I've won the bet we had on the NHS, I hope Dr Pepper will kindly donate my £100 win here. >>>

*Emergency: Gray Wolves Facing Biggest Threat Yet*

https://act.biologicaldiversity.org...=d-ixbzJurMiaZlTrj0e_pZ6sOQgf9R-SWc8-Jhbvh1U=


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> You really can't worry about every possibe thing that MAY or COULD happen, life's to short.


I don't think just about myself. I'm not prepared to gamble with my childrens future! I'm not prepared to gamble with our natural environment & animals lives. Boy am I glad I took my time to evaluate the pros & cons of leaving the EU, project FACT is far far worse than project fear. So when brexit blows up in brexiters faces (and it will  ) my conscience will be clear.


----------



## noushka05

May & Hunt are gaslighting us again. Pinning the blame at the door of the EU for the governments failure to get a deal. How predictable could they get? Anyone falling for this [email protected] has either been lobotomised or they're suffering from acute cognitive dissonance:Hilarious May is taking the public for imbeciles. The tories are dragging our countrys reputation into the gutter with theirs.

Jeremy Hunt: History will judge the EU if they fail to give the UK what need to get a Brexit deal through Parliament.

Reaction.

*James O'Brien*‏: Bless. Cowards & charlatans will desperately try to pin their own epic failures & ignorance on the EU. History won't let them.

Paul Lewis: This is historical revisionism. The EU already gave Theresa May's government the deal she wanted. It was her party that rejected it and asked for another one.

*Schona Jolly QC*‏ : May's govt, having made one catastrophic mistake after the other, having lain in thrall to the extremists in their party, having lied & mis-promised & distorted & hidden Brexit truths, having wasted months with delay, now reverts to blaming the foreigner. How very Brexit Britain

...........


----------



## MilleD

I'm not sure if this is a threat or a promise...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...ect-her-deal-again/ar-BBUwTSx?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## noushka05

The competent Tories:

"Rise in stabbings not to do with police cuts" 
"coloured women" 
"Soldiers in NI couldn't have committed crimes" 
"Speak to Foreign Office re islamophobia" 
"Send in army to deal with kids" 
"Brexit may lead to deaths"

And that's just the last couple of days

Maybe there's a law in the cabinet that when Grayling takes a day off, everyone else has to step up to preternatural levels of incompetence to compensate.

via David Schneider. (Sorry Mille :/)


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> I'm not sure if this is a threat or a promise...
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...ect-her-deal-again/ar-BBUwTSx?ocid=spartanntp


Seems to me that if she wants to get her deal through, because it's the best deal and is what the people want, she ought to put it to the people.

Make it a binding referendum and if the voters give it the thumbs up, then that's it. If they don't, and would prefer to remain in the EU, that's democracy.

Where's the problem, (unless one is a staunch Brexiteer)?


----------



## Mrs.Zee

kimthecat said:


> I dont know who you are replying to but there's nothing wrong with being objective .
> 
> Mrs Zee is Eeyore. Zaros and Mrs Zee, I understand , had separate accounts but had a collective one, Eeyore. Mrs Zee resigned from PF but uses the Eeyore one.
> .


Err, that is not quite true, I´m afraid, Eeyore (MrsZee) is only me. I thought my use of English grammar alone would be obvious for all to see that. Recently I had problems signing in as Eeyore, so I had to create another account as me again. Sorry, if you expected something else, but I am me and me alone. Nothing surprising nor very creative, no play on words, just boring old facts that make you sleep. But that is what I like, facts and logic, so that is what you get. (hint for those, who don´t like them, so you can ignore me immediately without any fuss  .

Also in case someone forgot I have very little understanding for Brexit, as I have no respect for populists and to me, Brexit is their wet dream. If some one wants facts to back that claim, you only need to ask. I have plenty... Anyway, I´m off. I just wanted to have my personal facts right too, as there seemed to have been a bit of an misunderstanding.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> Seems to me that if she wants to get her deal through, because it's the best deal and is what the people want, she ought to put it to the people.
> 
> Make it a binding referendum and if the voters give it the thumbs up, then that's it. If they don't, and would prefer to remain in the EU, that's democracy.
> 
> Where's the problem, (unless one is a staunch Brexiteer)?


We've already had a binding referendum. And if there was a second referendum the ONLY option that shouldn't be on it is remain as we have already voted that's not a option. Very easy to understand.

And I'm pretty sure that one of the criteria of being a member of the EU is you are a acting democratic country. If we don't leave the EU then we could never rejoin on those terms as we ignored a democratic vote and the promises given at the time.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> We've already had a binding referendum. And if there was a second referendum the ONLY option that shouldn't be on it is remain as we have already voted that's not a option. Very easy to understand.


The fact is that it wasn't binding, regardless of any comments or promises made by politicians. It was advisory.

In a democracy, and especially in the light of a plethora of new facts, people are allowed to change their minds. Denying them the chance to do so by not including 'remain' on a new referendum would be undemocratic.

"Very easy to understand". I trust you won't find me presumptuous by saying so, but comments like this, implying that the person at whom they are aimed must either agree with you or else is somehow unintelligent, do more to encourage antagonism than debate. I'm sorry to say that some people on this thread have even ended up banned after adopting the same approach. Just a heads-up, so I hope you take the comment in the right spirit.


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs.Zee said:


> Err, that is not quite true, I´m afraid, Eeyore (MrsZee) is only me. I thought my use of English grammar alone would be obvious for all to see that. Recently I had problems signing in as Eeyore, so I had to create another account as me again. Sorry, if you expected something else, but I am me and me alone. Nothing surprising nor very creative, no play on words, just boring old facts that make you sleep. But that is what I like, facts and logic, so that is what you get. (hint for those, who don´t like them, so you can ignore me immediately without any fuss  .
> 
> .


 Welcome back , your grammar is far better than many British peoples .


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> "Very easy to understand". I trust you won't find me presumptuous by saying so, but comments like this, more to encourage antagonism than debate. I'm sorry to say that some people on this thread have even ended up banned after adopting the same approach. Just a heads-up, so I hope you take the comment in the right spirit.


I take it in the right spirit. You surely are having a laugh though given the posts by at least two very obviously remain supporters who refer to leave supporters as Nazis. God forbid I should just say "very easy to understand". If calling members Nazis is acceptable and saying "easy to understand " is unacceptable then this is a very worrying forum. Let's all leave now.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, now I recognise who you were.
> 
> I didn't put you on ignore last time you were posting on this thread, I think I will this time.


Another fail then! Don't put people on ignore, it's just a admission that you don't have the maturity to just ignore posts, and also you don't feel you have the ability to debate with them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Another fail then! Don't put people on ignore, it's just a admission that you don't have the maturity to just ignore posts you have problems with and don't feel the you have the ability to debate with.


Or simply he cannot be bothered?
Ever considered this possibility?
:Hilarious


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> Or simply he cannot be bothered?
> Ever considered this possibility?
> :Hilarious


Nope, never considered it a possibility as he considers himself a expert on everything.

I do however appreciate he tries to come across as the middle ground but he really does fail miserably.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Nope, never considered it a possibility as he considers himself a expert on everything.
> 
> I do however appreciate he tries to come across as the middle ground but he really does fail miserably.


Because happens to have different opinions? 
I might go the same way... will that make me immature, unable to debate or an expert on everything?

There might be a couple of members that I choose not to respond to...
Because simply it is a waste of time...especially that I think they like to willfully twist my words and provoke reactions to have the thread closed and I don't want that.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-b...mpaign-to-press-it-harder-after-jo-cox-murder


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> I take it in the right spirit. You surely are having a laugh though given the posts by at least two very obviously remain supporters who refer to leave supporters as Nazis. God forbid I should just say "very easy to understand". If calling members Nazis is acceptable and saying "easy to understand " is unacceptable then this is a very worrying forum. Let's all leave now.





Alan Jackdon said:


> Another fail then! Don't put people on ignore, it's just a admission that you don't have the maturity to just ignore posts, and also you don't feel you have the ability to debate with them.


Where has anyone accused individual forum members of being Nazis?

With comments like what you posted above you wonder why people don't want to debate with you?


----------



## KittenKong

Facebook:

I believe that the electorate, historians and social commentators will all blame the Conservative Party, the Conservative Government, the Conservative Cabinet and the Conservative Prime Minister for:

1. calling a divisive referendum;

2. allowing that referendum to be fraudulently run;

3. not accepting three separate judiciary judgements on the criminality found;

4. calling a general election that wasted time, effort and lost her majority;

5. initialising the Article 50 process without forethought or having a plan (having had to be taken to the High and Supreme Court by Gina Miller to act democratically;

6. making outrageous claims and promised to the electorate on what could be delivered through the European Union exiting process;

7. creating her red lines that cannot be crossed or negotiated away;

8. allowing the disintegration of its political Cabinet on many occasions over the two and a half years negotiation process (having three separate ministers head the negotiations before the Prime Minister took overall control);

9. failing to deliver on its claims and promises;

10. pushing forward with a Chequers deal that even her her own cabinet could not wholeheartedly accept;

12. ignoring the voice of over 750,000 protesters that travelled to the capital from all over Britain and expatriates from abroad;

11. providing a negotiated deal to Parliament that cannot be ratified (because both right and left extremes cannot stomach it);

13. renegotiating an agreement that is not open for discussion or amendments; 

14. not providing the electorate with a voice on the Governments final negotiated position.

A compilation of errors that is certainly not created by the European Union.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Where has anyone accused individual forum members of being Nazis?
> 
> With comments like what you posted above you wonder why people don't want to debate with you?


Seems to be a common trait with brextremists like Dr Pepper, in that they only see/hear what they want to hear lol Thats why no amount of evidence, facts, logic or reason can convince them that brexit is going to be a disaster, so extreme is their confirmation bias they have to resort to making things up. No one has accused any forum members of being Nazis.

Did you see that dishonest buffoon Mark Francois deliberately misunderstanding Will Self yesterday? If looks could kill








Mrs.Zee said:


> as I have no respect for populists and to me, Brexit is their wet dream. If some one wants facts to back that claim, you only need to ask. I have plenty..


This is impossible to deny & as feared brexit has emboldened the racists. Nationalist populism is on the rise across the globe thanks to brexit, Trump, Orban, Afd, Le Penn. I want no part of it.

[

( I really hope you will stick around Mrs Zee x)


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 396224
> https://www.channel4.com/news/the-b...mpaign-to-press-it-harder-after-jo-cox-murder


This is what REAL journalism looks like. C4 news stands head & shoulders above our so called state broadcaster the BBC!

*Channel 4 News*‏:
Brexit funder Arron Banks ignored campaign suspension after Jo Cox's murder, urging social media team "up the spend" and "press it harder


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> Where has anyone accused individual forum members of being Nazis?


Never said "individual". But says it all that you think it's ok to collectively call leavers Nazis/vile/fascist or any other insult you can come up with. Then again name calling is remainers default backstop with even the likes of Donald Tusk sinking to such a juvenile level.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> But says it all that you think it's ok instead to collectively call leavers Nazis/vile/fascist or any other insult you can come up wit


You're just making it up:Hilarious

I'm STILL waiting for that list of leave experts Dr Pepper?

(& my £100 )


----------



## noushka05

*David Lammy*‏:_ Serious questions need to be asked about offshore donations to the Conservative Party.

Billionaires who avoid paying their taxes to fund schools, hospitals and public services have no place influencing the political debate.

TAX INVESTIGATION

*Tories under attack after tax haven donations*

_
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-under-attack-after-tax-haven-donations-hrj29tshw


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> You're just making it up:Hilarious


I suppose that seeing as you usually just copy and paste reams of other people's musings you are actually unaware of what you are posting.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> I suppose that seeing as you usually just copy and paste reams of other people's musings you are actually unaware of what you are posting.


Of course I'm aware of what I'm posting lol Now please stop being evasive & provide that list of leave experts:Smuggrin


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Of course I'm aware of what I'm posting lol Now please stop being evasive & provide that list of leave experts:Smuggrin


I reckon you've used the world Nazis at least twenty six times, so yes you are unaware of what you post.

No point giving you names of those that know how Brexit could work as you just blindly dismiss them (usually calling them vile or Nazis!).


----------



## Magyarmum

Alan Jackdon said:


> I reckon you've used the world Nazis at least twenty six times, so yes you are unaware of what you post.
> 
> No point giving you names of those that know how Brexit could work as you just blindly dismiss them (usually calling them vile or Nazis!).


@kimthekat. did a tot up on the 5th Jan 2019 in her post no 7326 and found ...........

KittenKong had mentioned Hitler 12 times and Nazi 22 times

As we're now into March the count has no doubt gone up, but I can't be bothered to find out by how many!


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> I reckon you've used the world Nazis at least twenty six times, so yes you are unaware of what you post.


So how does using the word Nazi equate to 'accusing' a member of being a Nazi? I have never accused anyone of being a Nazi. You are being fallacious.


Alan Jackdon said:


> No point giving you names of those that know how Brexit could work as you just blindly dismiss them (usually calling them vile or Nazis!).


:Hilarious Same old, same old. Whenever brextremists (or climate change deniers) are unable to support their claims they always to resort to things like this:Hilarious Comedy gold. How can you have a serious debate with someone who refuses to back up their assertions? I can only dismiss them if I can supply evidence that they are an untrustworthy character.

But ok, lets put aside individual experts then. List the trustworthy independent organisations which support brexit instead? As the NHS matters to most people, can you provide a list of organisations which support leaving the EU because it will be beneficial to our NHS?


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> So how does using the word Nazi equate to 'accusing' a member of being a Nazi? I have never accused anyone of being a Nazi. You are being fallacious.
> 
> :Hilarious Same old, same old. Whenever brextremists (or climate change deniers) are unable to support their claims they always to resort to things like this:Hilarious Comedy gold. How can you have a serious debate with someone who refuses to back up their assertions? I can only dismiss them if I can supply evidence that they are an untrustworthy character.
> 
> But ok, lets put aside individual experts then. List the trustworthy independent organisations which support brexit? As the NHS matters to most people, can you provide a list of organisations which support leaving the EU because it will be beneficial to our NHS?


Twenty seven times actually for you calling people Nazis or Nazi. And in excess of one hundred and forty four times calling people vile. You can't argue with the facts.

Just because a outdated poorly run organisation like the NHS won't benefit from Brexit doesn't mean it will fail because of Brexit. The NHS needs a total overhaul, that has nothing to do with Brexit, it's been the case for decades.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> *@kimthekat. did a tot up on the 5th Jan 2019 in her post no 7326 and found ...*........
> 
> KittenKong had mentioned Hitler 12 times and Nazi 22 times
> 
> As we're now into March the count has no doubt gone up, but I can't be bothered to find out by how many!


How sad:Jawdrop

I don't suppose it matter what context they mentioned in? Is this worse than someone who actually seeks to endorse a website run by racists?, a website which is well known for peddling far right propaganda?


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Twenty seven times actually for you calling people Nazis or Nazi. And in excess of one hundred and forty four times calling people vile. You can't argue with the facts.
> 
> Just because a outdated poorly run organisation like the NHS won't benefit from Brexit doesn't mean it will fail because of Brexit. The NHS needs a total overhaul, that has nothing to do with Brexit, it's been the case for decades.


You're a liar. Not once have I called a member on here a Nazi. But go on then, my posts are on here so - PROVE IT! If you can't I'm reporting you the mods for making unfounded accusations DR PEPPER.

LMAO What a surprise you have nothing. Well how about a list of Green organisations then?


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> You're a liar. Not once have I called a member on here a Nazi. But go on then, my posts are on here so - PROVE IT! If you can't I'm reporting you the mods for making unfounded accusations DR PEPPER.
> 
> LMAO What a surprise you have nothing. Well how about a list of Green organisations then?


By comparing leavers to Nazis you by default include the leave members on this forum. Never said you have accused any one particular member of this forum. But you can't compare Brexit to Nazi Germany and then say you don't mean certain people!!

Again, why do you think everyone should benefit from Brexit? What's wrong Brexit just maintaining the status quo for the majority?


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> By comparing leavers to Nazis you by default include the leave members on this forum. Never said you have accused any one particular member of this forum. But you can't compare Brexit to Nazi Germany and then say you don't mean certain people!!
> 
> Again, why do you think everyone should benefit from Brexit? What's wrong Brexit just maintaining the status quo for the majority?


What a surprise you've changed tack now you've been forced to prove it,. And once again you are LYING. I have NEVER compared leavers to Nazis I have NEVER compared brexit to nazi germany. I'm reporting you now!


----------



## Calvine

Alan Jackdon said:


> and also you don't feel you have the ability to debate with them.


@Alan Jackdon: When you have been a member of the forum for a bit longer, you will begin to see that some of them cannot be ''debated'' with. ''Tunnel vision'' comes to mind.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Another fail then! Don't put people on ignore, it's just a admission that you don't have the maturity to just ignore posts, and also you don't feel you have the ability to debate with them.


You see, this is what I mean.

Saying that I lack maturity - which would be very nice, since I have altogether more maturity than I want - seems to me antagonistic, unless you mean it as a compliment.

And the suggestion regarding the ability to debate is also perhaps disrespectful.

I like debate and discussion. I don't like silly personal attacks. That is why I put you on ignore. When I took you off ignore and responded to a post, your immediate response was another ad hominem insult. If these continue I will put you on ignore again, and report the relevant posts.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Nope, never considered it a possibility as *he considers himself a expert on everything.*
> 
> I do however appreciate he tries to come across as the middle ground but he really does fail miserably.


This is incorrect, but it moves my finger closer to the 'Report' button.

The thread has been running really quite nicely lately, with mostly respectful posts representing both sides of the debate. Yes there are some rather grandiose claims from those whose passion for one side or the other lead them, perhaps, to hyperbole, but the important thing is that the atmosphere is generally respectful.

It would be a shame if the thread were closed because that atmosphere was poisoned. Please take note.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

@noushka05 heres just a few where you compare leavers and the leave campaign to Nazis.



noushka05 said:


> I've provided plenty of evidence on this forum about the benefits of migrants. So lets see this ample evidence proving the contrary? No dodgy right wing think tanks either. Lets see all those trusted sources which prove immigration is causing problems.
> 
> No, the NHS is on the verge of collapse due to underfunding & ramped up privatisation by the tories - you have just regurgitated one of those lies peddled by Farage. This shows how dangerous hate mongers are.
> 
> Migrants are the backbone of our NHS - it cannot function without them but thanks to Farage & co we're driving them away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't think the language of Enoch Powell was inflammatory you're hardly going to see pound shop Enoch for the xenophobe that he is lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Practically everything that spills out of his mouth is anti immigration. But as you cant see that, maybe these will ring your alarm bells??
> 
> Roy Moore is a white supremacist & alleged child molester!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nigel Farage to campaign with far-right AfD Party ahead of German elections*
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...erman-elections-far-right-Party-Angela-Merkel
> 
> Neo Nazi's love Farage too!.
> https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...c3ae4b0e18d11a64429?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004
> 
> *Stephen Bannon, Donald Trump's Chief Strategist, Praised By KKK And American Nazis*
> 
> I'll be honest, I didn't get chance to listen. The way the bbc were presenting it appeared like they were sensationalising it .
> 
> As I said I didnt hear it but this the reaction of someone I follow on twitter.
> _
> To all the white people asking people of colour, immigrants, and their children if we ACTUALLY listened to the #RiversOfBlood BBC broadcast, before offering your critique of it- How dare you. We've ACTUALLY been listening to it for fifty years
> 
> "Did you ACTUALLY listen to it? Do you REALLY think we should censor history? Don't you ACTUALLY think its useful to hear how racist it is?" White men are the Columbo's of the universe with your, "Just one more thing!"
> 
> No one is asking you for your thoughts (or your questions!) on this. Here's why: your perceived intellectualism and philosophising, is worth less than the actual safety of people who are not like you.
> 
> Families are being separated in the U.K. as people are deported after decades of residency. Enoch Powell's speech supports these inhumane actions.
> 
> Violence and racial aggression escalates after racist rhetoric has been given a platform, whatever the context (hello, Brexit!), so people of colour are rightfully scared, tired, and equally worried for their mental health.
> 
> Its v telling that so many of you think this broadcast was just access to British history. Its not history. It's NOW. Enoch Powell's speech is regurgitated in the Tory party, in our media, in the entire Brexit campaign. What IN THE PAST HISTORY do you think the speech is???
> 
> This was not your average documentary or TV series in which lines from key moments in time are presented to you with context-this was essentially framed as an anniversary special, with fascist rhetoric at the heart of the applause.
> 
> Historical programmes showing the actions and thoughts of the Nazi party (eg), show the destruction & devastation this caused. @BBCRadio4 centred UK fascism, without ANY presentation of the vast victims of racism, and without giving a voice to immigrants. For this, they failed._rs.
> 
> Says it all





noushka05 said:


> I say plenty myself, but if I see something which resonates I'll share it on here. No one is forced to read it.
> 
> And I don't use facebook.
> 
> So you've read The Shock Doctrine, yet you still don't understand what Thatcher did was quite different to pit closures under labour governments. And the significance of Thatcher to Blairs leadership of the labour party & Iraq - you still dont get that either? Did you just scan the book? If you still have it, would you like me to reference relevant pages to save me from explaining to you on here?
> 
> Thatcher labelled my family, my community - 'the enemy within'. With her mates in the media, the tories tried to turn the whole country against us. The tories still use propaganda & the same divisive tactics to this day to hang onto power
> 
> ...
> 
> If Corbyn was the one responsible for all this suffering and chaos. athough I'm not a labourite, I suspect many labourites wouldn't care what was thrown at him.
> 
> God knows what kind of paper you read then! That poster was a blatant attempt to incite racial hatred. It was straight out of the Nazi propaganda book (compare the two below!).
> 
> Hungarys racist leader, Viktor Orban, used virtually the same poster as racist Farages in his election campaign to whip up hatred in his country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But remember you're on the same side as these guys SWC. If you 'win' so do they.





noushka05 said:


> There are plenty of positives, but you choose to ignore them, so not much we can do about that,
> 
> Can you please provide references to your sources? The overwhelming consensual position of experts within the NHS is that brexit will be terrible for our *already crippled* health service. TBQH it doesnt take a genius to see that leaving the EMA, Euratom, SM/CU is going to have a terrible impact. Compound that with staffing shortages. Less funding. Ramped up privatisation. The changes needed is for the government to reverse the selling off of our NHS & to fully invest in it.
> 
> With the ensuing chaos brexit will bring, the tories will use it to finish off our NHS once & for all - This is how _Disaster Capitalism _works Elles, I'm sure you must now be fully aware having read The Shock Doctrine?.
> 
> You actually think the tories would change policy and save it?  I'm baffled. Do you _still _not understand their ideology?? Our NHS is the antithesis of tory ideology Elles. You really don't need to be an expert to understand this. Good grief.
> 
> Of course _my_ experts aren't saying staying in the EU will save our NHS. They are saying leaving will be disastrous for it.
> 
> For me, cutting ones nose off to spite ones face is just insane.
> 
> No I haven't.
> 
> _The threat was immigrants from Turkey and refugees who made it to the Eu being sent to the U.K_
> 
> It certainly sounds like you believed it = & so did a lot of others. Which was my point.
> 
> I don't but a lot did - even though it will never happen! Many people believed the scaremongering. My point again.
> 
> Were you not also furious that the leave campaign used that Nazi inspired poster to whip up fear of immigrants? Many people were duped into voting leave by this Elles! Trump used the exact same tactics with his 'migrant caravan' prior to the mid term elections. Its despicable.
> 
> I think its all part & parcel of neoliberal ideology
> 
> See Arnies post. Your last sentence sums it up.
> 
> The tories are gaslighting us Elles. We ain't seen nothing yet! And when we brexit all but the few are going to know about it.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏ 20 Dec 2018:
> Tories continue to roll out their unforgivable public health cuts programme - @commonslibrary have number-crunched the figures, showing a 3.3% funding cut per head.
> 
> Funny that wasn't mentioned in today's announcement, nor the yearly cuts since 2015
> 
> https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-12-20/HCWS1221 …
> 
> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................





noushka05 said:


> What a surprise you've changed tack now you've been forced to prove it,. And once again you are LYING. I have NEVER compared leavers to Nazis I have NEVER compared brexit to nazi germany. I'm reporting you now!


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @Alan Jackdon: When you have been a member of the forum for a bit longer, you will begin to see that some of them cannot be ''debated'' with. ''Tunnel vision'' comes to mind.


I'm only like a dog with a bone when I know I can support my opinon with hard evidence Calvine. And @Alan Jackdon is the banned member Dr Pepper who was banned for making a 2nd account for the sole purpose of trolling.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> I'm only like a dog with a bone when I know I can support my opinon with hard evidence Calvine. And @Alan Jackdon is the banned member Dr Pepper who was banned for making a 2nd account for the sole purpose of trolling.


So now I'm @Dr Pepper, I was @stockwellcat a few days ago. Who next?


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> @noushka05 heres just a few where you compare leavers and the leave campaign to Nazis.


Thank you for vindicating me. I have never called anyone on here a NAZI & i've NEVER labelled all leave voters Nazis. You are a liar.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Thank you for vindicating me. I have never called anyone on here a NAZI & *i've labelled all leave voters Nazis*. You are a liar.


Thank you for admitting it at last


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> How sad:Jawdrop
> 
> I don't suppose it matter what context they mentioned in? Is this worse than someone who actually seeks to endorse a website run by racists?, a website which is well known for peddling far right propaganda?


Classic case of deflection - changing the subject and comparing it to being of lesser importance than something you've accused someone else of doing

Sad yes but for you not @kimthekat.

https://www.learning-mind.com/psychological-deflection/


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Never said "individual". But says it all that you think it's ok to collectively call leavers Nazis/vile/fascist or any other insult you can come up with. Then again name calling is remainers default backstop with even the likes of Donald Tusk sinking to such a juvenile level.


Critising not people voting to Leave but those who decided on referendum to Leave without a plan!!!!
People were voting ont their own hopes and ideas , everyone different and impossible to reconcile.

All consequences were dismissed glibly as " Project Fear " .

So there is a plan now, there is some understanding that there will be consequences- non EU immigration rising , motor industry closing etc...
Economy stumped for years.

Put May Deal on the table- ask people to decide and be honest - No Deal will be utter disaster and criminal irresponsiblity of those in charge.
If you read Dante..


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> Critising not people voting to Leave but those who decided on referendum to Leave without a plan!!!!
> People were voting ont their own hopes and ideas , everyone different and impossible to reconcile.
> 
> All consequences were dismissed glibly as " Project Fear " .
> 
> So there is a plan now, there is some understanding that there will be consequences- non EU immigration rising , motor industry closing etc...
> Economy stumped for years.
> 
> Put May Deal on the table- ask people to decide and be honest - No Deal will be utter disaster and criminal irresponsiblity of those in charge.
> If you read Dante..


Another vote would be fine. May's deal or no deal should be the options though.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> I reckon you've used the world Nazis at least twenty six times, so yes you are unaware of what you post.
> 
> No point giving you names of those that know how Brexit could work as you just blindly dismiss them (usually calling them vile or Nazis!).


You can't give names as you don't know any, or afraid to mention names?

They are of course Brexit 'experts' who want to reduce standards and safety, who want privatisation of the NHS etc. Brexit will most certainly work for them. Perhaps you are one who's set to benefit while the remaining 95% of the population have to endure further hardship.

I see where you're coming from though. Every time I mention a certain politician a thread becomes inundated with Iraq related posts that are completely unrelated to the topic in question.



Magyarmum said:


> KittenKong had mentioned Hitler 12 times and Nazi 22 times


Not denying that as the rise of the far right in the UK is certainly akin to what happened in Germany during the 1930s, but at no time have I accused any individual forum members of being Nazis.



Arnie83 said:


> It would be a shame if the thread were closed because that atmosphere was poisoned. Please take note.


I think this is the intention. People like those responsible can't stand objection to their point of view.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Another vote would be fine. May's deal or no deal should be the options though.


Though I was incorrect in suggesting you were SWC you certainly sing from the same hymn sheet.

A 'referendum' for May's deal or no deal would immediately disadvantage Scotland, NI and Gibraltar as these countries voted to remain. That would give them options they didn't want in the first place.

I, for one, would refuse to participate in such a 'referendum' as I want neither option.

Would be like a GE with only Theresa May and JR-M on the ballot paper.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> *A 'referendum' for May's deal or no deal *would immediately disadvantage Scotland, NI and Gibraltar as these countries voted to remain. That would give them options they didn't want in the first place.
> 
> I, for one, would refuse to participate in such a 'referendum' as I want neither option.
> 
> Would be like a GE with only Theresa May and JR-M on the ballot paper.


I can't see that happening. It is still unlikely, I think, that we will get a new referendum, but should it happen the only reason some wouldn't want Remain on the ballot is because they are afraid that the people would have changed their mind. Talk of it not being democratic is really not credible given the amount of new information that has come to light since 2016, and the characteristic of democracy that people are allowed to change their minds. Denying them the chance is entirely undemocratic.

But as I say, I think it unlikely to happen. Events in the Commons this week - which is really what we should be talking about in this thread right now! - will hopefully move us forwards one way or another, and will be very interesting to watch.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

KittenKong said:


> Though I was incorrect in suggesting you were SWC you certainly sing from the same hymn sheet.
> 
> A 'referendum' for May's deal or no deal would immediately disadvantage Scotland, NI and Gibraltar as these countries voted to remain. That would give them options they didn't want in the first place.
> 
> I, for one, would refuse to participate in such a 'referendum' as I want neither option.
> 
> Would be like a GE with only Theresa May and JR-M on the ballot paper.


But we've already voted to leave, so that is no longer a option. The process needs to move forwards now not go back nearly three years and start over. It's the uncertainty that is damaging not actually that we might be leaving. Yes I've resigned myself to that we might not actually leave.

When you consider over seventeen million people voted to leave is it any surprise we sing from the same hymn sheet! I'd be shocked if we didn't.


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> But we've already voted to leave, so that is no longer a option. The process needs to move forwards now not go back nearly three years and start over. It's the uncertainty that is damaging not actually that we might be leaving. Yes I've resigned myself to that we might not actually leave.
> 
> When you consider over seventeen million people voted to leave is it any surprise we sing from the same hymn sheet! I'd be shocked if we didn't.


I did not vote to leave, so myself and over 16million others can be removed from the "We" to start with!

Perhaps you should say the procedure needs to move back as the UK will soon suddenly revert back to a time no one under the age of 30 will remember. They'll be a lot of things to get used to such as IDPs, visas, losing the automatic ability to live and work across 30 other nations etc.

To argue that 'we' have already voted to leave is like me arguing 'we' voted Labour in 2005 so changes of opinion are irrelevant. If I was a gambler I'd put money on Theresa May cancelling or postponing the next GE when due if her position in the polls is poor.

There's always a chance leave with no deal could win a second/third EU referendum even if the option to cancel A50 and remain was on the ballot paper. The Media will do their best to ensure that.

This is a risk I am prepared to take as I'd rather people voted for that knowing what they know now and not through the fantasy and lies they were told in 2016.

Still, as Arnie says it's unlikely to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

It's going to be so much fun 'taking back control'...

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190308/france-releases-guide-for-uk-businesses-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> But we've already voted to leave, so that is no longer a option. The process needs to move forwards now not go back nearly three years and start over. It's the uncertainty that is damaging not actually that we might be leaving. Yes I've resigned myself to that we might not actually leave.
> 
> When you consider over seventeen million people voted to leave is it any surprise we sing from the same hymn sheet! I'd be shocked if we didn't.


If the vote was between "May's Deal" and "Changed our Minds", that would surely be moving things on, because the people would have the final, definitive, democratic say on what would immediately happen. No further negotiations; just accept the now-detailed deal on the table, or call it off.

If it was May's Deal then there would be further uncertainty for a few years while we negotiated the details of the future relationship, but if the voters now had a different view and voted to remain that would immediately end the uncertainty, wouldn't it? (At least until some future Parliament leans sufficiently in the direction of Leaving to kick off the whole thing again; when hopefully they would do things better and wouldn't resort to a referendum.)


----------



## Jesthar

Saw a rather interesting suggestion the other day about a potential way forward:


No second referendum

Everyone from the youngest to the oldest has to apply for either a 'Leave' ration card or a 'Remain' ration card. Whichever type you get, you keep for life.

In the event that there ARE post-Brexit shortages (food, medicine, fuel etc.), those with a Remain card go to the front of the queue. Remainers have no more cause to moan as if the worst happens they'll be fine, Leavers are happy as its all Project Fear scaremongering anyway.
The kicker: if under 50% of the population apply for Leave cards, Article 50 is revoked.
Seems one of the more balanced suggestions of late


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Saw a rather interesting suggestion the other day about a potential way forward:
> 
> 
> No second referendum
> 
> Everyone from the youngest to the oldest has to apply for either a 'Leave' ration card or a 'Remain' ration card. Whichever type you get, you keep for life.
> 
> In the event that there ARE post-Brexit shortages (food, medicine, fuel etc.), those with a Remain card go to the front of the queue. Remainers have no more cause to moan as if the worst happens they'll be fine, Leavers are happy as its all Project Fear scaremongering anyway.
> The kicker: if under 50% of the population apply for Leave cards, Article 50 is revoked.
> Seems one of the more balanced suggestions of late


If only it wouldn't be this government having to organize it!


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> If the vote was between "May's Deal" and "Changed our Minds", that would surely be moving things on, because the people would have the final, definitive, democratic say on what would immediately happen. No further negotiations; just accept the now-detailed deal on the table, or call it off.
> 
> If it was May's Deal then there would be further uncertainty for a few years while we negotiated the details of the future relationship, but if the voters now had a different view and voted to remain that would immediately end the uncertainty, wouldn't it? (At least until some future Parliament leans sufficiently in the direction of Leaving to kick off the whole thing again; when hopefully they would do things better and wouldn't resort to a referendum.)


Equally leaving with no deal would end the uncertainty. The whole problem is almost three years of not actually getting to grips with leaving but trying to stay in. And as you say it looks like there will be at least a further two years of uncertainty anyhow.


----------



## Mrs.Zee

I was wondering why some get so annoyed with comparing right wing populists parties and politicians with Hitler. (note, I believe we have no politicians on PF, unless one of you is Farage, Mogg or any one of that ilk in disguise and hence the reaction.) The reason, why I wanted to ask this is the simple fact that I have compared our populist party with nazis and for a very good reason. Many of their members also belong to fascists associations, which openly support nazis and their policies of superior races. Also the main (and usually the only) goal for the party has been to keep immigrants out. Another big theme for fascists. So, if you check what are the goals for Le Penn, Orban, Ukip etc, you´ll see the same messages and, the same links to the same associations which openly support fascists. The pattern is pretty clear and the same all over the world. Trump is a good example of the US version of the same political agenda. 

And the link to Brexit politicians? That is pretty clear, as hasn´t Farage targeted immigration as one of the reasons, why Brexit should happen? (Although, at first Farage lied about how much Britain will financially gain by leaving EU, but even the most ardent Brexiteer doesn't try to pull that lie off any more, it is only damage control now and nothing else). And haven´t all the rest of the n-parties supported Brexit and opposed EU through out the campaign? Take your pick of the right wing populist party and you get the same messages as the Boris & co has. 

And for those, who say that they are not nazis and still voted for Brexit I can say that, good. I´m sure you had lots of other reasons to vote for Brexit and that I´m sure you really don´t want to be associated with anything relating to nazis. Most of us really do not want that. But, my question is: as the fact is that many Brexit politicians do have links to nazi ideology, do you support those politicians or do you not? I´m sure that there are many conservative politicians too, who do not want to join forces with Boris and Farage either, as they find their links to fascism too close. Restricting immigration is naturally not the same as being openly racist and claiming certain cultures or religions are bad, but they get confused so easily. 

So why do some get offended, when we mention Hitler and Brexit in the same sentence? There is a link there and it is very important to be aware of that, isn´t it? I´m sure most of us do not want to make that link any stronger that is already is. (so sorry Farage, Mogg or Boris, in disguise, if this got personal, but I really really dislike all of them, as to me they support a terrible evil.)


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Thank you for admitting it at last


I haven't admitted to anything, that was a clearly a mistake on my part now corrected. UKcatdaddy is stockwellcat, you are Dr Pepper. .


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> Saw a rather interesting suggestion the other day about a potential way forward:
> 
> 
> No second referendum
> 
> Everyone from the youngest to the oldest has to apply for either a 'Leave' ration card or a 'Remain' ration card. Whichever type you get, you keep for life.
> 
> In the event that there ARE post-Brexit shortages (food, medicine, fuel etc.), those with a Remain card go to the front of the queue. Remainers have no more cause to moan as if the worst happens they'll be fine, Leavers are happy as its all Project Fear scaremongering anyway.
> The kicker: if under 50% of the population apply for Leave cards, Article 50 is revoked.
> Seems one of the more balanced suggestions of late


I think that's fair.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Classic case of deflection - changing the subject and comparing it to being of lesser importance than something you've accused someone else of doing
> 
> Sad yes but for you not @kimthekat.
> 
> https://www.learning-mind.com/psychological-deflection/


You think someone making a comparison between right wing authoritarian figures is of lesser importance than actually endorsing a know platform for far right propaganda? :JawdropSays it all.


----------



## noushka05

Mrs.Zee said:


> I was wondering why some get so annoyed with comparing right wing populists parties and politicians with Hitler. (note, I believe we have no politicians on PF, unless one of you is Farage, Mogg or any one of that ilk in disguise and hence the reaction.) The reason, why I wanted to ask this is the simple fact that I have compared our populist party with nazis and for a very good reason. Many of their members also belong to fascists associations, which openly support nazis and their policies of superior races. Also the main (and usually the only) goal for the party has been to keep immigrants out. Another big theme for fascists. So, if you check what are the goals for Le Penn, Orban, Ukip etc, you´ll see the same messages and, the same links to the same associations which openly support fascists. The pattern is pretty clear and the same all over the world. Trump is a good example of the US version of the same political agenda.
> 
> And the link to Brexit politicians? That is pretty clear, as hasn´t Farage targeted immigration as one of the reasons, why Brexit should happen? (Although, at first Farage lied about how much Britain will financially gain by leaving EU, but even the most ardent Brexiteer doesn't try to pull that lie off any more, it is only damage control now and nothing else). And haven´t all the rest of the n-parties supported Brexit and opposed EU through out the campaign? Take your pick of the right wing populist party and you get the same messages as the Boris & co has.
> 
> And for those, who say that they are not nazis and still voted for Brexit I can say that, good. I´m sure you had lots of other reasons to vote for Brexit and that I´m sure you really don´t want to be associated with anything relating to nazis. Most of us really do not want that. But, my question is: as the fact is that many Brexit politicians do have links to nazi ideology, do you support those politicians or do you not? I´m sure that there are many conservative politicians too, who do not want to join forces with Boris and Farage either, as they find their links to fascism too close. Restricting immigration is naturally not the same as being openly racist and claiming certain cultures or religions are bad, but they get confused so easily.
> 
> So why do some get offended, when we mention Hitler and Brexit in the same sentence? There is a link there and it is very important to be aware of that, isn´t it? I´m sure most of us do not want to make that link any stronger that is already is. (so sorry Farage, Mogg or Boris, in disguise, if this got personal, but I really really dislike all of them, as to me they support a terrible evil.)


I hope those concerned will answer your questions. Great post by the way


----------



## Mrs.Zee

Jesthar said:


> Saw a rather interesting suggestion the other day about a potential way forward:
> 
> 
> No second referendum
> 
> Everyone from the youngest to the oldest has to apply for either a 'Leave' ration card or a 'Remain' ration card. Whichever type you get, you keep for life.
> 
> In the event that there ARE post-Brexit shortages (food, medicine, fuel etc.), those with a Remain card go to the front of the queue. Remainers have no more cause to moan as if the worst happens they'll be fine, Leavers are happy as its all Project Fear scaremongering anyway.
> The kicker: if under 50% of the population apply for Leave cards, Article 50 is revoked.
> Seems one of the more balanced suggestions of late


That will be so right! Who could possibly object to that? Much better plan than anything I´ve seen so far ...


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Equally leaving with no deal would end the uncertainty. The whole problem is almost three years of not actually getting to grips with leaving but trying to stay in. And as you say it looks like there will be at least a further two years of uncertainty anyhow.


I guess the uncertainty of the decision would be removed, though I'm not sure that the business environment would not become even more uncertain for a while.

But given that Parliament is likely to vote very decisively against a No Deal outcome before they arrive at the possibility of a new referendum I think it unlikely that they would then want it as an option on the ballot. We will see, I suppose, or possibly not!


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> You think someone making a comparison between right wing authoritarian figures is of lesser importance than actually endorsing a know platform for far right propaganda? :JawdropSays it all.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Equally leaving with no deal would end the uncertainty. The whole problem is almost three years of not actually getting to grips with leaving but trying to stay in. And as you say it looks like there will be at least a further two years of uncertainty anyhow.


No deal would throw the country into chaos. No deal was never mentioned until lately. The leave campaign promised a deal.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Did you see that dishonest buffoon Mark Francois deliberately misunderstanding Will Self yesterday? If looks could kill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> x)


*Stephen Fry*‏: _* The stupidest man currently in politics? It's a big field, but to repeat a false syllogism so many times without even knowing he's doing it - wow. Frightening that this man Mark Francois is allowed to use the street unsupervised, let alone operate in Westminster...*_

lol


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> No deal would throw the country into chaos. No deal was never mentioned until lately. The leave campaign promised a deal.


Actually leaving the EU with no deal was the only leave option we were offered in the referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

Brexit Secretary Barclay is widely quoted saying that the UK put "clear new proposals" to the EU wrt to Irish border issue.

Can anyone tell me what they were, or point me at a link, because I can't find any description of them.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Actually leaving the EU with no deal was the only leave option we were offered in the referendum.


Vote leave promised a deal. all the key brexiters promised a deal, most people I know who voted leave believed them when they told us we could get a better deal. You'd have to be totally reckless to want to leave without a deal. If we do crash out you are going be faced with the dire consequences of your wish to leave with no deal. You are in for a very rude awakening indeed.



Arnie83 said:


> Brexit Secretary Barclay is widely quoted saying that the UK put "clear new proposals" to the EU wrt to Irish border issue.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what they were, or point me at a link, because I can't find any description of them.


Can you see this Arnie?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1104371501187432454 Is this what you're referring to?


----------



## KittenKong

Alan Jackdon said:


> Actually leaving the EU with no deal was the only leave option we were offered in the referendum.


:HilariousBut you conveniently forget the promises made during the campaign."We hold all the cards" and all that.

I would have thought the average brexit supporter such as yourself would place the blame on the EU for not giving your beloved Theresa what she wants, even if they don't agree with her plan themselves.

Oh, you've blamed us remainers for their incompetence earlier though...

I know some who voted for and still support Brexit on principle terrified at the prospect of a no deal.

I remember SWC insisting no deal was what the 17m voted for.

That's as much rubbish than me insisting the 16m who voted remain want the Euro and Schengen, even though I do personally.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Can you see this Arnie?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1104371501187432454 Is this what you're referring to?


I can see it - thanks - but if that's what Barclay is talking about, there is nothing new in there. I have suspected that when he means is that we make the same proposals and want the EU to give us a different answer, but of course the likes of Barclay and Leadsom are blaming the EU for their own government's incompetence.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> :HilariousBut you conveniently forget the promises made during the campaign."We hold all the cards" and all that.
> 
> I would have thought the average brexit supporter such as yourself would place the blame on the EU for not giving your beloved Theresa what she wants, even if they don't agree with her plan themselves.
> 
> Oh, you've blamed us remainers for their incompetence earlier though...
> 
> I know some who voted for and still support Brexit on principle terrified at the prospect of a no deal.
> 
> I remember SWC insisting no deal was what the 17m voted for.
> 
> That's as much rubbish than me insisting the 16m who voted remain want the Euro and Schengen, even though I do personally.


My ballot paper just used the word "Leave" and left the interpretation completely open. Understandable, of course, that there were many different interpretations, one of which would have been to sever our association with every EU institution from the Galileo project to the Single Market to Euratom. Certainly neither the government nor the Leave campaign had an agreed definition. The legal one would presumably simply refer to the UK no longer being signatories to the various Treaties that define membership.

That's one very good reason why another referendum seems to me a good idea, because now we know the definition of 'Leave' that is on offer, and people will vote for (or against) what it actually means rather than what they want it to mean.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Another vote would be fine. May's deal or no deal should be the options though.


No Deal is not an option. 
It is a disaster, people stockpiling food and medicines like for a war ... or a natural disaster.
This is man made disaster and only irresponsible, self serving traitors of their own people can push for it.
That will end in recession, unemployment and riots for pit sake!!!
Then what? Channel that anger against ethnic minorities, immigrants etc?
History repeats itself!!!!
That is not an option.

That is Project Fear: no jobs, no food, no medicines... Third World scenario... riots and curfew.

I have experienced that in my teens and do not wish to have it again.
Off the table.
The choice is - realistic Brexit that Britain can survive although poorer and diminished.
Or Remain although the way Brexit already damaged mutual trust between us and Eu countries...

Spain is preparing us for Brexit, many hours frontier queue yesterday, people missed planes .... 
Brexit briefing everywhere and contingency plans for staff and supplies shortages...

Extra costs mounting, cuts on everything, like pay rise, bonuses because of Brexit...
Prices up...


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> No Deal is not an option.
> It is a disaster, people stockpiling food and medicines like for a war ... or a natural disaster.
> This is man made disaster and only irresponsible, self serving traitors of their own people can push for it.
> That will end in recession, unemployment and riots for pit sake!!!
> Then what? Channel that anger against ethnic minorities, immigrants etc?
> History repeats itself!!!!
> That is not an option.
> 
> That is Project Fear: no jobs, no food, no medicines... Third World scenario... riots and curfew.
> 
> I have experienced that in my teens and do not wish to have it again.
> Off the table.
> The choice is - realistic Brexit that Britain can survive although poorer and diminished.
> Or Remain although the way Brexit already damaged mutual trust between us and Eu countries...
> 
> Spain is preparing us for Brexit, many hours frontier queue yesterday, people missed planes ....
> Brexit briefing everywhere and contingency plans for staff and supplies shortages...
> 
> Extra costs mounting, cuts on everything, like pay rise, bonuses because of Brexit...
> Prices up...


I agree that no deal on the 29th March will cause trouble. But a no deal that had started to be organised from June 2016 could have (should have) been a seamless and trouble free exit. But with actually fully leaving the EU apparently not being a option we're where we are now. That, I suppose, should have been expected seeing as we have a remainer and a remain majority cabinet "leading" the process. It's a bit of shambles.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> I agree that no deal on the 29th March will cause trouble. But a no deal that had started to be organised from June 2016 could have (should have) been a seamless and trouble free exit. But with actually fully leaving the EU apparently not being a option we're where we are now. That, I suppose, should have been expected seeing as we have a remainer and a remain majority cabinet "leading" the process. It's a bit of shambles.


I really don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing for the sake of it, but if we had 'organised' a No Deal Brexit, wouldn't that, in effect, have been a deal? In as much as it would have involved negotiations and agreements with the EU 27 in order to make the Brexit smooth ...


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing for the sake of it, but if we had 'organised' a No Deal Brexit, wouldn't that, in effect, have been a deal? In as much as it would have involved negotiations and agreements with the EU 27 in order to make the Brexit smooth ...


Yes, but with us all working to the same, and more importantly, definitive end. Far easier as no "deals" are being argued about, just far simpler required and legal procedures being put in place. One example being over the three years facilities for customs at the Channel could have been put in place, something both the UK and French want but has been largely ignored until off late because it wasn't considered a option.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Yes, but with us all working to the same, and more importantly, definitive end. Far easier as no "deals" are being argued about, just far simpler required and legal procedures being put in place. One example being over the three years facilities for customs at the Channel could have been put in place, something both the UK and French want but has been largely ignored until off late because it wasn't considered a option.


What, say, of the Irish border question? And the divorce bill?


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> What, say, of the Irish border question? And the divorce bill?


Three years to sort it out, not panic about it at the eleventh hour whilst arguing (sorry negotiating) about a trade deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> I agree that no deal on the 29th March will cause trouble. But a no deal that had started to be organised from June 2016 could have (should have) been a seamless and trouble free exit. But with actually fully leaving the EU apparently not being a option we're where we are now. That, I suppose, should have been expected seeing as we have a remainer and a remain majority cabinet "leading" the process. It's a bit of shambles.


Really? How would you that?
Surely you can tell, as you are no expert?


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Three years to sort it out, not panic about it at the eleventh hour whilst arguing (sorry negotiating) about a trade deal.


May I ask what your answer would be to the Irish border question? It's been unresolved for nearly 3 years already ...


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> May I ask what your answer would be to the Irish border question? It's been unresolved for nearly 3 years already ...


Not my area of expertise. But it's not actually been really considered for three years, more like six months or so.

But for one, and this would need a bit of work!!! You have a hard border for commercial vehicles importing/exporting. No border for the public. Yes I know there are a 101 details but with three years rather than a few months I'm sure real experts could come up with something better.

To be honest neither of us are in the position to resolve the Irish border issue, a Pet forum isn't really the place.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Not my area of expertise. But it's not actually been really considered for three years, more like six months or so.
> 
> But for one, and this would need a bit of work!!! You have a hard border for commercial vehicles importing/exporting. No border for the public. Yes I know there are a 101 details but with three years rather than a few months I'm sure real experts could come up with something better.
> 
> To be honest neither of us are in the position to resolve the Irish border issue, a Pet forum isn't really the place.


But as we are no experts... perfect don't you think?

So what did experts say about the Irish border? Non existent technology?
So if people yes but lorries no - the goods will be carried on their back?

How would you get Spain off our backs - Gibraltar lives off tourism and financial services?

What about Euro clearing business?

Erasmus?

Euroatom?

Eurostar?

Welsh farming?

Customs Union?


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> So if people yes but lorries no - the goods will be carried on their back?


Doubt it.


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> Doubt it.


Hmm. Ever met anyone who has experience of the Irish border during the Troubles?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

noushka05 said:


> I haven't admitted to anything, that was a clearly a mistake on my part now corrected. UKcatdaddy is stockwellcat, you are Dr Pepper. .


You are wrong by the way.

Are you and arnie the










What makes me think this is all the allegations you both make about new users.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Jesthar said:


> Hmm. Ever met anyone who has experience of the Irish border during the Troubles?


Yes, I spent a lot of time working in Northern and Southern Ireland in the 90's and crossed the border many times (yes, the heavily fortified crossing points were intimidating). I was in Omagh in August 1998.

The people both sides of the border were very welcoming and the Northern Irish very apologetic for the "troubles" (terrorism) saying it was mainly a Catholic vs Protestant issue and as a English person they weren't bothered about me. Lovely people tarnished by a few terrorists.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

ukcatdaddy said:


> You are wrong by the way.
> 
> Are you and arnie the
> 
> View attachment 396344
> 
> 
> What makes me think this is all the allegations you both make about new users.


I have no recollection of posting this, probably because I didn't 

Looking forward to seeing who I will be next week.


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> You are wrong by the way.
> 
> Are you and arnie the
> 
> View attachment 396344
> 
> 
> What makes me think this is all the allegations you both make about new users.


Welcome back... ... how's S the C?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Alan Jackdon said:


> I have no recollection of posting this, probably because I didn't
> 
> Looking forward to seeing who I will be next week.


I think that new members are not welcome on this thread and get accused of being other members.


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> I think that new members are not welcome on this thread and get accused of being other members.


Funny how familiar they are, the newbies with the forum, the 10 k worth of posts, or just very fast readers with eidetic memory...

Obviously you are our brand new member who never posted before....:Bag


----------



## Alan Jackdon

ukcatdaddy said:


> I think that new members are not welcome on this thread and get accused of being other members.


I've checked out Dr Pepper, it's not the first time he/she has been accused of being another member. Apparently they were banned almost a year and a half ago.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny how familiar they are, the newbies with the forum, the 10 k worth of posts, or just very fast readers with eidetic memory...
> 
> Obviously you are our brand new member who never posted before....:Bag


Personally I read many forums I don't participate in, Red Dead Redemption 2 being a current favourite. I've read those forums for years with out feeling the urge to participate. Just happy to read others musings on the game.

I felt compelled to join here when @stockwellcat disappeared. A balance needed to be addressed.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny how familiar they are, the newbies with the forum, the 10 k worth of posts, or just very fast readers with eidetic memory...
> 
> Obviously you are our brand new member who never posted before....:Bag


I dont understand , UK cat daddy has posted before. He joined last year.


----------



## Jesthar

Alan Jackdon said:


> Yes, I spent a lot of time working in Northern and Southern Ireland in the 90's and crossed the border many times (yes, the heavily fortified crossing points were intimidating). I was in Omagh in August 1998.
> 
> The people both sides of the border were very welcoming and the Northern Irish very apologetic for the "troubles" (terrorism) saying it was mainly a Catholic vs Protestant issue and as a English person they weren't bothered about me. Lovely people tarnished by a few terrorists.


Interesting. I expect such an experience has left you with a better-that-average understanding of why a return to that scenario isn't a fantastic idea...


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> Just because a outdated poorly run organisation like the NHS won't benefit from Brexit doesn't mean it will fail because of Brexit. The NHS needs a* total overhau*l, that has nothing to do with Brexit, it's been the case for decades.


Here are some FACTS for you to dismiss 

Brexit does mean the NHS will fail quicker because of brexit. The BMA, the Royal Colleges of Nurses, GPs & Midwives & now The Royal College of Radiologists have said brexit is terrible for our NHS. The BMA & the peer reviewed Lancet study on the implications of the various brexit scenarios state no deal will be catastrophic.

And this is the real reason you cant provide any credible 'leave experts' in this field 

In 2010 the NHS had the highest ever public satisfaction record. In 2012 the tories gave the NHS 'a total overhaul'. They forced through the Health & Social Care Act 2012. Brexit will finish the job they started & they can say - sorry your NHS is gone but its not OUR fault. leaving the EU was the 'will of the people'.






Femi has a question.

_Question:

When people lose loved ones in the next few years because the NHS isn't able to save them, while the NHS itself screams for European medicines & staff...

How long will it take people to forgive those who sat by and watched this for 3 years?

_

Personally, I could NEVER forgive them.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> I dont understand , UK cat daddy has posted before. He joined last year.


No wonder leave supporters like yourself can't see leaving the EU is going to be a complete & utter disaster if you can't figure this out


----------



## ukcatdaddy

noushka05 said:


> No wonder leave supporters like yourself can't see leaving the EU is going to be a complete & utter disaster if you can't figure this out


Your still wrong about me. So who are you going to be accusing me of being next then?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

kimthecat said:


> I dont understand , UK cat daddy has posted before. He joined last year.


Nothing to understand it is the thread bullies accusing new members of being other people.


----------



## noushka05

ukcatdaddy said:


> Your still wrong about me. So who are you going to be accusing me of being next then?


SWC has a doppleganger then:Smuggrin


----------



## ukcatdaddy

noushka05 said:


> SWC has a doppleganger then:Smuggrin


You are so wrong.

Obviously you don't like people that don't agree with you on Brexit. That is obvious as you gang up on them accusing them of being someone else.


----------



## Mrs.Zee

noushka05 said:


> I hope those concerned will answer your questions. Great post by the way


I don´t really expect an answer, do you? Not a real answer like some one saying I´ll check the link between Farage and ultra-right parties, which have direct links (same members even) to n - parties or I can prove you wrong.

But this got me thinking the way people often response to negative news about Brexit. So I categorized the typical responses, when some one has posted something negative about Brexit, which is based on facts:

a) how dare you call us this or that! (i.e.whatever you blamed the politicians to be). 
b) same old whatever, (which is half true, as usually the question based on facts imply that Brexit is not going to improve the lives of most British and the answer is the same old whatever.). That is actually true, it is same old same old. 
c) change of topic, and, if possible, to something that has nothing to do with Brexit (i.e. how to survive with little money, jam recipe or how well people did after war etc. )
d) nothing, as that is the easiest way out (blinking the whole question out of your mind is a typical way to hope problems will solve themselves eventually)
e) response using fake fatcs (using trump sites (ultra right sites, which are proven over and over again to be lies, but people still use them, as they´d like to be able to have facts to back them up. Natural reaction, of course. Everybody likes facts in the end. And fake fact is almost like a fact and they come handy when replying to something, which is based on facts. Naturally as a consequence the original questions changes to discussion about the reliability of facts. Avoidance tactic, like jam talk. Trump is very very good at that.

Did I miss something?  oh, smiley


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Here are some FACTS for you to dismiss
> 
> Brexit does mean the NHS will fail quicker because of brexit. The BMA, the Royal Colleges of Nurses, GPs & Midwives & now The Royal College of Radiologists have said brexit is terrible for our NHS. The BMA & the peer reviewed Lancet study on the implications of the various brexit scenarios state no deal will be catastrophic.
> 
> And this is the real reason you cant provide any credible 'leave experts' in this field
> 
> In 2010 the NHS had the highest ever public satisfaction record. In 2012 the tories gave the NHS 'a total overhaul'. They forced through the Health & Social Care Act 2012. Brexit will finish the job they started & they can say - sorry your NHS is gone but its not OUR fault. leaving the EU was the 'will of the people'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Femi has a question.
> 
> _Question:
> 
> When people lose loved ones in the next few years because the NHS isn't able to save them, while the NHS itself screams for European medicines & staff...
> 
> How long will it take people to forgive those who sat by and watched this for 3 years?
> 
> _
> 
> Personally, I could NEVER forgive them.


The NHS has to change. It can't go on as the outdated, bloated, inefficient money burning machine it has become. If Brexit speeds up that modernisation that all well and good, doubt it will though.

EU staff (excluding UK nationals) account for about 5% of NHS staff. If all of them left (they won't) it wouldn't be "screaming" for them. And you do realise that even with a no deal Brexit we will still be trading with EU, so can still buy their medicine if we wish?


----------



## Mrs.Zee

I have a very simple question for all of you. When you talk about trade deals, usually they concern only what you can buy from other countries and how much more that will cost you. Fair enough, as we all need to eat etc . And again, the answer is that naturally Brits will be able to buy stuff in the future too, it just will be a little bit more complicated and expensive. This is all clear to me, no one wants to restrict British buying what ever they want. 

But what about British selling stuff? With the same logic that too will be a bit more difficult and expensive, right? So why would other countries want to buy anything British and pay more for that and use more time (red tape) to get it? So based on this very simple logic you need more money to get the same things you had before, but you will have less money to pay for it, as you lose trade. And the less money you have to buy goods, the less money you have naturally for schools, hospitals, police etc. The rich won´t be affected, they never do, but the rest will. 

Unless I´m wrong, British still use real money to pay things, right? So when you need to pay your rent/mortgage or shopping you have to deliver hard cash. When you run out of money, do you expect that the land lord will say, never mind, you pay me in 50 years, as then we will reap the benefits of Brexit? And the cash point will say that never mind, we´ll just make you an IOU and you´ll pay in 50 years? 

I do admire you, if you really can wait for 50 years to wait for the benefits. That is like two generations will just calmly accept that now it is their turn to make sacrifices, like the generation after the war did. I´m afraid in most countries there would be riots and people would not be very happy with the government, which delivered that in purpose.


----------



## noushka05

Mrs.Zee said:


> I don´t really expect an answer, do you? Not a real answer like some one saying I´ll check the link between Farage and ultra-right parties, which have direct links (same members even) to n - parties or I can prove you wrong.
> 
> But this got me thinking the way people often response to negative news about Brexit. So I categorized the typical responses, when some one has posted something negative about Brexit, which is based on facts:
> 
> a) how dare you call us this or that! (i.e.whatever you blamed the politicians to be).
> b) same old whatever, (which is half true, as usually the question based on facts imply that Brexit is not going to improve the lives of most British and the answer is the same old whatever.). That is actually true, it is same old same old.
> c) change of topic, and, if possible, to something that has nothing to do with Brexit (i.e. how to survive with little money, jam recipe or how well people did after war etc. )
> d) nothing, as that is the easiest way out (blinking the whole question out of your mind is a typical way to hope problems will solve themselves eventually)
> e) response using fake fatcs (using trump sites (ultra right sites, which are proven over and over again to be lies, but people still use them, as they´d like to be able to have facts to back them up. Natural reaction, of course. Everybody likes facts in the end. And fake fact is almost like a fact and they come handy when replying to something, which is based on facts. Naturally as a consequence the original questions changes to discussion about the reliability of facts. Avoidance tactic, like jam talk. Trump is very very good at that.
> 
> Did I miss something?  oh, smiley


No. I would have bet money on it.

Excellent categorisation Mrs Zee, I would add to that 'whataboutism a popular deflective tactic. Its nigh on impossible to some people to address the point in question.


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> The NHS has to change. It can't go on as the outdated, bloated, inefficient money burning machine it has become. If Brexit speeds up that modernisation that all well and good, doubt it will though.
> 
> EU staff (excluding UK nationals) account for about 5% of NHS staff. If all of them left (they won't) it wouldn't be "screaming" for them. And you do realise that even with a no deal Brexit we will still be trading with EU, so can still buy their medicine if we wish?


What on earth are you basing your opinion on?? Can you please provide references? . Brexit speeds up the Americanisation of NHS.

63,000 EU nationals CHOSE to live here & work in our already terribly understaffed NHS. They made this country their home & people like you don't give a toss what brexit is doing to them.










This is what the BMA says -
*No-deal Brexit will be 'catastrophe' for NHS and increase risk from deadly pandemics, BMA warns*
*Exclusive: Doctors have a duty to set out the harm of crashing out of the EU and this is not scaremongering, union say*


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...bma-final-say-voters-referendum-a8493221.html

And pease see the peer reviewed lancet study below of what no deal actually means for our NHS.


----------



## noushka05

Classic projection psychology of brextremists summed up brilliantly by David Schneider. No rational person is going to fall for it. History will be damning to the liars who are driving this country towards destruction.


----------



## rona

Alan Jackdon said:


> And you do realise that even with a no deal Brexit we will still be trading with EU,


Only until they start trying to recoup the 13 billion we are no longer paying


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Classic projection psychology of brextremists summed up brilliantly by David Schneider. No rational person is going to fall for it. History will be damning to the liars who are driving this country towards destruction.


No I can't provide references. I base my opinions on a multitude and lifetime of experiences rather than seeking out unknown "experts", social media groups, Z list bandwagon jumping "celebrities" (Terry Christian, I mean really :Hilarious ) or self-interested people with their own agenda. But be I right or wrong at least they are my thoughts and conclusions 

Unlike many remainers I can also see the other side of the debate and fully understand why they want to stay in the EU. I've yet to meet a remainer who can even begin to grasp why the majority voted to leave.


----------



## Arnie83

Alan Jackdon said:


> Not my area of expertise. But it's not actually been really considered for three years, more like six months or so.
> 
> But for one, and this would need a bit of work!!! You have a hard border for commercial vehicles importing/exporting. No border for the public. Yes I know there are a 101 details but with three years rather than a few months I'm sure real experts could come up with something better.
> 
> To be honest neither of us are in the position to resolve the Irish border issue, a Pet forum isn't really the place.


It is unlikely that you or I can come up with something where negotiators from both the UK and the EU have failed, but I think it's easy to see how difficult the problem is. Even had they started to talk about it immediately A50 was triggered (which I suspect they did) they still face the UK government's red lines:

1 No hard border
2 No membership of the Customs Union or the Single Market
3 No different treatment of NI from the rest of the UK

Your proposed solution breaks #1. The backstop breaks #2 and / or #3, while we wait for a technical solution to be invented. Our red lines are mutually incompatible.

If we had decided to leave with No Deal from day 1, as you suggest - or the 'managed No Deal' suggested by some of the ERG types - then this issue (and others) would still have required resolution. Even No Deal would still need a deal, and it wouldn't have been simple.


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> Nothing to understand it is the thread bullies accusing new members of being other people.


I never bullied anyone?

Who do you accuse of being bullies?

It is a serious accusation, I understand your post count is 36. :Hilarious

Yet already you call others bullies?

Why would you make such accusations?

But you are pf junior member not someone coming back under new name and vehemently denied that it could be the case?

I understand you never ever had any other account here and those 36 posts are your only contributions and all similarities are purely coincidental?

Noticed no posts about your pets?

I think our mods reminded once @Grigori that it is a pet forum aka pet photos are welcome?

Much as I appreciate your contributions on this thread would maybe show us your cat ?


----------



## noushka05

Alan Jackdon said:


> No I can't provide references. I base my opinions on a multitude and lifetime of experiences rather than seeking out unknown "experts", social media groups, Z list bandwagon jumping "celebrities" (Terry Christian, I mean really :Hilarious ) or self-interested people with their own agenda. But be I right or wrong at least they are my thoughts and conclusions
> 
> Unlike many remainers I can also see the other side of the debate and fully understand why they want to stay in the EU. I've yet to meet a remainer who can even begin to grasp why the majority voted to leave.


Of course you can't provide references. Thats why you have to use these deflection tactics. Terry Christians OPINION on something completely different has absolutely nothing to with my question, & I've NEVER claimed he was an expert , but you have to resort to deflection because you cannot address the topic in hand.

Your response falls nicely into Mrs Zees response chart



Mrs.Zee said:


> c) change of topic


Are you really incapable of differentiating between real experts in the medical community & the opinion of celebrities?

Unlike you I'm not impervious to logic, reason, facts, evidence & expertise, anyone looking objectively can plainly see we heading for for disaster with Mays deal - worse still with no deal!


----------



## Alan Jackdon

noushka05 said:


> Of course you can't provide references. Thats why you have to use these deflection tactics. Terry Christians OPINION on something completely different has absolutely nothing to with my question, & I've NEVER claimed he was an expert , but you have to resort to deflection because you cannot address the topic in hand.
> 
> Your response falls nicely into Mrs Zees response chart
> 
> Are you really incapable of differentiating between real experts in the medical community & the opinion of celebrities?
> 
> Unlike you I'm not impervious to logic, reason, facts, evidence & expertise, anyone looking objectively can plainly see we heading for for disaster with Mays deal - worse still with no deal!


I knew you wouldn't understand. I really don't know how much simpler I could have explained it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> I knew you wouldn't understand. I really don't know much simpler I could have explained it.


 She does.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

cheekyscrip said:


> Noticed no posts about your pets?


I have posted photos of my cat in cat chat. Suggest you look harder.


> Much as I appreciate your contributions on this thread would maybe show us your cat ?


I have already done that. You are not looking hard enough.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

cheekyscrip said:


> maybe show us your cat ?


https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/let-me-introduce-buddy.511392/


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Noticed no posts about your pets?
> 
> I think our mods reminded once @Grigori that it is a pet forum aka pet photos are welcome?
> 
> Much as I appreciate your contributions on this thread would maybe show us your cat ?


Are you saying if you don't have a pet your not welcome on here, I hope not, or is it now I've lost Dillon maybe I should leave.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Are you saying if you don't have a pet your not welcome on here, I hope not, or is it now I've lost Dillon maybe I should leave.


Of course not, not the intention at all, just spotted the coincidence of appearing and disappearing of SWC and apparition of the new member whose posts are eerily similar?

I had impression that SWC inquiried about the member called @Grigori and then one of Mods asked about his pets?

Which to some degree I might understand?

You are here a lifetime now and sadly you and some others lost their beloved dogs and it may happen to us all eventually... does not mean obviously you are going anywhere.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I had impression that SWC inquiried about the member called @Grigori and then one of Mods asked about his pets?


As far as I recall, Grigorii was banned (not sure if it was temporary or permanent) after much speculation that he was a troll?? I may be mistaken.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> As far as I recall, Grigorii was banned (not sure if it was temporary or permanent) after much speculation that he was a troll?? I may be mistaken.


Exactly, do you remember why was that?

I do.


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> I have posted photos of my cat in cat chat. Suggest you look harder.
> I have already done that. You are not looking hard enough.


Thank you, very pretty cat indeed!!!
I will be delighted to see much more of him, hope you don't mind...in CC of course... talking about our cats not politics...


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly, do you remember why was that?
> 
> I do.


 I don't know, and I care even less; but I do know that several regular - very regular - posters on this thread never post on the pet threads, preferring to treat PF as a Brexit forum.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

cheekyscrip said:


> Thank you, very pretty cat indeed!!!
> I will be delighted to see much more of him, hope you don't mind...in CC of course... talking about our cats not politics...


Thank you for the compliments about my cat. Yes there will be more photos of him being posted soon. I have not mentioned politics in Cat Chat at all and have talked about my cat there.


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> Thank you for the compliments about my cat. Yes there will be more photos of him being posted soon. I have not mentioned politics in Cat Chat at all and have talked about my cat there.


That is why we have GC and this thread after all...


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> I don't know, and I care even less; but I do know that several regular - very regular - posters on this thread never post on the pet threads, preferring to treat PF as a Brexit forum.


I haven't posted on the pet threads for ages. I used to post on dog and horse chat and not here, but now it's the other way around. There's nothing unusual happening, I don't know enough to offer advice and the bad threads upset me, so although I read them I don't feel right getting involved. Weird huh?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course not, not the intention at all, just spotted the coincidence of appearing and disappearing of SWC and apparition of the new member whose posts are eerily similar?
> 
> .


perhaps because they both sound "normal " as opposed to the raving nutters on here? 
There was also a new remainer poster who posted once or twice at the same time as Grigori who also sounded normal . no one queried that.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I haven't posted on the pet threads for ages. I used to post on dog and horse chat and not here, but now it's the other way around. There's nothing unusual happening, I don't know enough to offer advice and the bad threads upset me, so although I read them I don't feel right getting involved. Weird huh?


I used to post in the Cat forum but there were too many threads about illness or worse, on none of which I had any expertise to share and all of which simply made me feel miserable. Generally I stick to this one now, and to any threads that I find interesting or where I might have something useful to contribute, like Rona's cruise thread (though she may disagree with that!!)

I didn't realise that anyone was counting, or is there a quota that we are supposed to fulfill?


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Arnie83 said:


> It is unlikely that you or I can come up with something where negotiators from both the UK and the EU have failed, but I think it's easy to see how difficult the problem is. Even had they started to talk about it immediately A50 was triggered (which I suspect they did) they still face the UK government's red lines:
> 
> 1 No hard border
> 2 No membership of the Customs Union or the Single Market
> 3 No different treatment of NI from the rest of the UK
> 
> Your proposed solution breaks #1. The backstop breaks #2 and / or #3, while we wait for a technical solution to be invented. Our red lines are mutually incompatible.
> 
> If we had decided to leave with No Deal from day 1, as you suggest - or the 'managed No Deal' suggested by some of the ERG types - then this issue (and others) would still have required resolution. Even No Deal would still need a deal, and it wouldn't have been simple.


Well I did say it has 101 problems to be solved. Also said it wasn't my area of expertise!! But it does show, as you say, that it's not going to be a solution conjured up on a pet forum. So perhaps people should stop expecting us to have all the answers. Much like when you vote in a general election, you vote for the mandate you like, you don't expect to be the one that comes up with how that mandate will be implemented though, that's why we have a whole raft of civil servants


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> Well I did say it has 101 problems to be solved. Also said it wasn't my area of expertise!! But it does show, as you say, that it's not going to be a solution conjured up on a pet forum. So perhaps people should stop expecting us to have all the answers. Much like when you vote in a general election, you vote for the mandate you like, you don't expect to be the one that comes up with how that mandate will be implemented though, that's why we have a whole raft of civil servants


Yes, but if they fail to deliver on their promises then we have another election?
But we are denied another vote?

Brexit peddlers confronted with facts brought by experts said experts are not needed.

Then followed the accusations towards EU that because of them we cannot get a dream Brexit.

They were clear from the beginning.

The red lines made any sensible compromise impossible.

Labour must say only had mixed messages and Eurosceptic leader propped by Unions.
Shame on them, because the common people will suffer the worst.

The anger and hatred caused by disappointment the ruling class will channel towards the usual scapegoats: the immigrants, ethnic and other minorities...

People spoken?
The 48% of people who spoken are totally forgotten.

Now we are stockpiling and preparing for the Brexit like for the war and war language is used.

We brought it upon ourselves led by selfishness of both major parties.

Corbyn is not and never was a mainstream leader, and of most of Labour supported Remain then he was wrong figurehead.

Corbyn could not beat " Strong and Stable" who is not disposed of yet only because Leave camp has too many fractions who cannot decide who will replace her.

Corbyn's one and only aim was to win election, Brexit or high water.

The attempt of one Independent Group combined of moderate Tories and Labour MPs is too little too late.

British people were made to believe they have to Save Britain from the evils of EU.
Which is just a trading bloc not a disease.

People in EU are just as ordinary as you.

EU is not the mythical dragon St George has to slain.

If it was we all on pf would unite trying to save the dragon as endangered species  anyway...


----------



## Elles

Generalising, people in Europe might be like the rest of us @cheekyscrip, but people in the Eu aren't. I'm nothing like Tusk or Juncker and I have nothing even close to the money and power they have!  ompus

The Eu is a bit more than a simple trading bloc lol. If it wasn't, we probably wouldn't be so keen to leave it.

Looks as though we are heading for a second referendum. If they can agree on what to vote for.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> the new member whose posts are eerily similar?


No, totally different style of writing. I am sure that SWC did not morph into Alan Jackdon.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Generalising, people in Europe might be like the rest of us @cheekyscrip, but people in the Eu aren't. I'm nothing like Tusk or Juncker and I have nothing even close to the money and power they have!  ompus
> 
> The Eu is a bit more than a simple trading bloc lol. If it wasn't, we probably wouldn't be so keen to leave it.
> 
> Looks as though we are heading for a second referendum. If they can agree on what to vote for.


Are you then like Farage of JRM?

( and I saw you...)

As to Tusk .. he used to hang out with some of my friends from Economy Dept... in times of "Friends of Beer Party"... who did well in elections...
Tusk is Kaszub, Slavic ethnic minority in North of Poland, they are hard working, straight talking, damn stubborn folk not prone to sweet talking , not ones to cross lightly either...


----------



## Alan Jackdon

Calvine said:


> No, totally different style of writing. I am sure that SWC did not morph into Alan Jackdon.


Ooeeer misses.

If he did I didn't feel it.


----------



## Calvine

Alan Jackdon said:


> Ooeeer misses.
> 
> If he did I didn't feel it.


Better luck next time Alan!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> No, totally different style of writing. I am sure that SWC did not morph into Alan Jackdon.


So do I ... wrong newbie.. AJ is a different morph...he has a dog, the other has a cat.


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> So do I ... wrong newbie.. AJ is a different morph...he has a dog, the other has a cat.


I have three dogs actually


----------



## cheekyscrip

Alan Jackdon said:


> I have three dogs actually


Sorry, I should've remembered...


----------



## Alan Jackdon

cheekyscrip said:


> Sorry, I should've remembered...


Remembered what???

The only time I've referred to my hounds is the cocker in the pool at our house, with a tennis ball in his mouth as my avatar. I've not mentioned the other two at all (well don't think I have ).

Actually I may have let on in other threads we have a Springer as well.

I look forward to you letting me know what breed my other dog is, along with whom your re-think I am next week.


----------



## KittenKong

More comments from over the water.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...11517c-411c-11e9-922c-64d6b7840b82_story.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

The really sad thing is that many who voted Leave believed and still do that the sacrifice has to be made to save Britain from clutches of the evil witch.
Brexit will make us poorer.
Poorer country is weaker and therefore less safe and less stable.

You followed The Pied Piper playing on your nostalgia, your national pride, your islanders mentality...

EU is far from perfect, or fair, but first time in history all those countries at least try to pull together and unite to face the giants of China, India, Russia, USA and you got persuaded by the people sponsored by Trump and Putin that EU is the evil?



You go exactly where Putin and Trump want you to go?

Do you think they are better than Tusk or even the old drunk Juncker?

You who have a choice of May and Corbyn?

It is a very sad moment in history of UK, en par with American War of Independence.
War that happened because English peers would have not stood the Jewish bankers from America among them...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Is there even going to be a meaningful vote tomorrow? Seems to be some doubt about it at the minute!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh boy, this week is going to be fun


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws said:


> Oh boy, this week is going to be fun


Well it is certainly going to be interesting!


----------



## Jesthar

3dogs2cats said:


> Well it is certainly going to be interesting!


And there is a reason why the the phrase "May you live in interesting times" is not considered a blessing


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> And there is a reason why the the phrase "May you live in interesting times" is not considered a blessing


Indeed, this all feels like a darn curse!


----------



## Magyarmum

From what I've read MP's have been sent a whip saying they must be in Parliament until 10.30 pm today, to 7.30 pm on Tuesday and Wednesday and to 6 pm on Thursday. 

All are 3 line whips which means there could be serious consequences if they fail to attend.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> Is there even going to be a meaningful vote tomorrow? Seems to be some doubt about it at the minute!


It doesn't seem to be certain at the moment. Surely she can't go on disrespecting what is supposed to be the Parliamentary democracy that is meant to be at the heart of all this nonsense?


----------



## Jesthar

3dogs2cats said:


> Indeed, this all feels like a darn curse!


Or that Simpsons episode where Homer's long lost brother Herb lets Homer design a car that will make or break his company, in the belief that letting "an average American car owner" design them "the type of car Americans _really _want, not the kind we tell them they want" will result in the most popular and profitable American made car ever produced...

(hint - it doesn't  )


----------



## Arnie83

According to the BBC Live Politics programme there will be a meaningful vote tomorrow, but it hasn't yet been decided what the wording of the motion will be!

You couldn't make it up.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> According to the BBC Live Politics programme there will be a meaningful vote tomorrow, but it hasn't yet been decided what the wording of the motion will be!
> 
> You couldn't make it up.


I've been told Wednesday's business is down as a general debate on housing, so no vote likely.

Thursday is a general debate on NICE and rare diseases so again a vote is unlikely.

Apart from that there are no details of what the Government Motion might be!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> According to the BBC Live Politics programme there will be a meaningful vote tomorrow, but it hasn't yet been decided what the wording of the motion will be!
> 
> You couldn't make it up.


I've just read there *won't* be a meaning vote, it will be a provisional vote with the government just calling it a meaningful vote. If so, thats yet another broken promise to add to Mays extensive list


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eaningful-vote-will-go-ahead-theresa-may-says

*Brexit meaningful vote will go ahead, Theresa May says*


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> I've just read there *won't* be a meaning vote, it will be a provisional vote with the government just calling it a meaningful vote. If so, thats yet another broken promise to add to Mays extensive list


Despite what her people have said, I don't believe this is going ahead.

Without any change, it'll just fail again.

Remember they sent out cabinet members on the very day she pulled it to say it was going ahead.


----------



## Mrs.Zee

This is what I read about the situation: 

Choice 1) Conservatives have said that May shouldn´t bring the actual proposal to vote as such it, won´t get enough support. They want instead another version with their amendments to be voted. The problem with that is that the EU has not even seen that, so it will be a gamble if that will get passed by EU. But they think that like in a poker, EU will back off and not call conservative´s bluff. So that is from May´s own party. Irish backstop is one of the big issues. 

Choice 2) Naturally Boris and Jacob and the rest of the gang wouldn´t mind leaving without a deal, even if it meant that there will be severe consequences for finance, (9% losses e.g. ) But hey ho, not for Jacob as he moved his assets, didn´t he.. 

Choice 3) May´s original plan (which was rejected by vast majority) would mean that all will be the same for two years, apart that Britain will not be deciding on anything, In the next two years British are supposed to have a proper plan for leaving. Irish back stop will be still there, but maybe May will have the technology and all ready then? But it means another two years for people and businesses to put everything on hold, as no one knows what will happen then. Little investments etc. for another two years. And now trust for May´s abilities have disappeared even among her own party. But still, two more years time to solve the problem. 

Choice 4) Or you might have a short extension hoping that somehow, 3 months will be enough to solve all the problems (including Irish backstop)

Choice 5) If parliament takes over (as Corbyn wants) and decides to widen the options for a) no deal exit b) May´s deal + extension c) d) long extension (with serious new proposals like the Norway deal) or e) remain, who knows, you might avoid the worst and only current government (and Cameron) will take the blame. As they should. Two years and people have only a few days time to decide about something they don´t even now and that should be ok? 

Choice 6) miracles, money trees, unicorns and magic - who knows? 

By the way, so far Brexit has cost every Brit £1750. Do you think you got your money´s worth? In addition, your reputation as a reliable business partner has suffered a lot, who wants to have long term investment in Britain, if this type of chaos could happen so easily? 

What do you think will happen? I bet on a short extension and hope for a new referendum as soon as possible. May should leave soon after that, if the people choose to remain.


----------



## KittenKong

Mrs.Zee said:


> This is what I read about the situation:
> 
> Choice 1) Conservatives have said that May shouldn´t bring the actual proposal to vote as such it, won´t get enough support. They want instead another version with their amendments to be voted. The problem with that is that the EU has not even seen that, so it will be a gamble if that will get passed by EU. But they think that like in a poker, EU will back off and not call conservative´s bluff. So that is from May´s own party. Irish backstop is one of the big issues.
> 
> Choice 2) Naturally Boris and Jacob and the rest of the gang wouldn´t mind leaving without a deal, even if it meant that there will be severe consequences for finance, (9% losses e.g. ) But hey ho, not for Jacob as he moved his assets, didn´t he..
> 
> Choice 3) May´s original plan (which was rejected by vast majority) would mean that all will be the same for two years, apart that Britain will not be deciding on anything, In the next two years British are supposed to have a proper plan for leaving. Irish back stop will be still there, but maybe May will have the technology and all ready then? But it means another two years for people and businesses to put everything on hold, as no one knows what will happen then. Little investments etc. for another two years. And now trust for May´s abilities have disappeared even among her own party. But still, two more years time to solve the problem.
> 
> Choice 4) Or you might have a short extension hoping that somehow, 3 months will be enough to solve all the problems (including Irish backstop)
> 
> Choice 5) If parliament takes over (as Corbyn wants) and decides to widen the options for a) no deal exit b) May´s deal + extension c) d) long extension (with serious new proposals like the Norway deal) or e) remain, who knows, you might avoid the worst and only current government (and Cameron) will take the blame. As they should. Two years and people have only a few days time to decide about something they don´t even now and that should be ok?
> 
> Choice 6) miracles, money trees, unicorns and magic - who knows?
> 
> By the way, so far Brexit has cost every Brit £1750. Do you think you got your money´s worth? In addition, your reputation as a reliable business partner has suffered a lot, who wants to have long term investment in Britain, if this type of chaos could happen so easily?
> 
> What do you think will happen? I bet on a short extension and hope for a new referendum as soon as possible. May should leave soon after that, if the people choose to remain.


Sadly, I think May will implement her deal come Brexit day regardless of the outcome and the opposition to it from both sides of the camp.

Seeing she cannot be touched until December I think this is the most likely outcome.

Hope I'm wrong though.


----------



## Mrs.Zee

KittenKong said:


> Sadly, I think May will implement her deal come Brexit day regardless of the outcome and the opposition to it from both sides of the camp.
> 
> Seeing she cannot be touched until December I think this is the most likely outcome.
> 
> Hope I'm wrong though.


So do I, as that will so terrible irresponsible and selfish. What happened to integrity and good for the people? But can´t parliament just throw her out? Surely there should be enough MPs even in conservative party to not to let her ruin the country? Even business people can´t have any respect for her and that says a lot, doesn´t it? But lets hope you are wrong.


----------



## Arnie83

I'm not going to make any guesses until I see what they are actually going to vote on tomorrow.

Whatever it is, this has certainly not been our finest hour! (or 2 years)


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Saw a rather interesting suggestion the other day about a potential way forward:
> 
> 
> No second referendum
> 
> Everyone from the youngest to the oldest has to apply for either a 'Leave' ration card or a 'Remain' ration card. Whichever type you get, you keep for life.
> 
> In the event that there ARE post-Brexit shortages (food, medicine, fuel etc.), those with a Remain card go to the front of the queue. Remainers have no more cause to moan as if the worst happens they'll be fine, Leavers are happy as its all Project Fear scaremongering anyway.
> The kicker: if under 50% of the population apply for Leave cards, Article 50 is revoked.
> Seems one of the more balanced suggestions of late


I was reading this thinking "what a bonkers idea".

Then I got to the kicker and thought "oh, clever"


----------



## emmaviolet

Well, it looks like something is going to happen and go through. I really can't believe this has to happen really, the poorest will be hit, but oh well, JRM has made £7 mil from his investments since the vote.

On another subject, why does she always have to travel there? Why not a phone call or Skype? All those air miles!


----------



## Happy Paws2

emmaviolet said:


> On another subject, why does she always have to travel there? Why not a phone call or Skype? All those air miles!


I don't really, may be it's in case she has to sign something.


----------



## havoc

Arnie83 said:


> Whatever it is, this has certainly not been our finest hour! (or 2 years)


Oh I don't know. Incapable of rational decisions. Leaving a country to go to the dogs for two years while failing to negotiate a sensible deal. There is a slim chance that there's a country out there sees us as a strong nation and won't grind us into the ground in subsequent trade deals after whatching our sterling performance. There are those which will regard us as a laughing stock but we can continue to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we're still living in the era of empire.

In any other country there would have been revolution but this is the UK. The worst that will happen here is a communal 'tut'.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> JRM has made £7 mil from his investments since the vote.


Must be a very high risk investment portfolio. Big risk=big reward


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...o-secure-changes-to-brexit-deal-37901397.html

*May in flight to Strasbourg for last-ditch bid to secure changes to Brexit deal*


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> On another subject, why does she always have to travel there? Why not a phone call or Skype? All those air miles!


I wouldn't actually hold that against her. Having conducted meetings / negotiations electronically (when I had a proper job!), even with full video capability, there are still times where you simply can't beat face to face.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Doesn't she understand the word NO!


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't actually hold that against her. Having conducted meetings / negotiations electronically (when I had a proper job!), even with full video capability, there are still times where you simply can't beat face to face.


Well, yes, but let's be honest, how many times has she gone before just to be met with bemusement? Like when she lost the vote and went on a tour and came back with...... nothing.
Why not set it up via phone and then have it fully laid out in face to face meetings? When there's been nothing all these other times, why does she jet off?


----------



## Elles

Well Remainers have been told they can’t have a second referendum and it hasn’t stopped them going on about it until they get one. Plus when TM says ‘no’ she doesn’t mean it either, so why would she think the Eu do?


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Must be a very high risk investment portfolio. Big risk=big reward


It's the same reason there's a photo of Nigel Farrage celebrating as the pound fell, they have certain investments that grow as we as a country do worse.


----------



## cheekyscrip

May should have been gone... if Tries were able to decide on replacement.

Opposition in any other country would have taken over... I feel that at least half of the Labout would rather not have Corbyn as PM.
Other countries would be laughing but they are actually busy with their own problems...
Britain is not that important.. the rest of the world won’t hold their breath...


How on Earth anyone can think that poorer, isolated country would be safer and stronger?

Replacing EU immigration by non EU will do the trick?

How?

Sending any goods all the way to Australia will generate more profits than across English Channel?

So after so many months do we know what Brexit means, except that Brexit means Brexit?
Do people actually realise consequences of No Deal - people as common, ordinary folk.

Can we have meaningful vote on unicorn existence please?


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Doesn't she understand the word NO!


Non . Elle ne comprehend pas Sacre Bleu! 

De Gaulle was more emphatic .


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Just heard on the radio Theresa May has got a legally binding instrument in addition to the deal. Junker has confirmed this.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> Just heard on the radio Theresa May has got a legally binding instrument in addition to the deal. Junker has confirmed this.


What "Legally binding instrument"? The same one agreed in December? I can't possibly imagine Mayhas got exactly what she's wanted however much the BBC try and convince people otherwise. They've done this before.

Whatever happens today and if her latest publicity stunt at the expense of the taxpayer wins her parliamentary vote today this will leave most dissatisfied on both camps.

For one thing, the risk of a hard border in Ireland and other uncertainties persist.

Plus, the UK will become the only area in geographic Western Europe not to have FoM!

With Brexit out of the way, God help us all with another five years + of Theresa May.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

Well, many it seems do confuse the Commonwealth with the British Empire...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> May should have been gone... if Tries were able to decide on replacement.
> 
> Opposition in any other country would have taken over... I feel that at least half of the Labout would rather not have Corbyn as PM.
> Other countries would be laughing but they are actually busy with their own problems...
> Britain is not that important.. the rest of the world won't hold their breath...
> 
> How on Earth anyone can think that poorer, isolated country would be safer and stronger?
> 
> Replacing EU immigration by non EU will do the trick?
> 
> How?
> 
> Sending any goods all the way to Australia will generate more profits than across English Channel?
> 
> So after so many months do we know what Brexit means, except that Brexit means Brexit?
> Do people actually realise consequences of No Deal - people as common, ordinary folk.
> 
> Can we have meaningful vote on unicorn existence please?


Labour couldn't have taken over Cheeky - they simply dont have the numbers since Mays DUP bribe. And when Corbyn tabled an amendment for a peoples vote, even the likes of Anna Soubry voted against it. Labour can't stop this train wreck.


----------



## noushka05

Brexit has reduced our country to a laughing stock :Bag


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Well, it looks like something is going to happen and go through. I really can't believe this has to happen really, the poorest will be hit, but oh well, JRM has made £7 mil from his investments since the vote.
> 
> On another subject, why does she always have to travel there? Why not a phone call or Skype? All those air miles!





AlexPed2393 said:


> Must be a very high risk investment portfolio. Big risk=big reward





emmaviolet said:


> It's the same reason there's a photo of Nigel Farrage celebrating as the pound fell, they have certain investments that grow as we as a country do worse.


Did anyone watch Dispatches last night on the Brexit Millionaires? I havent. This Rees Mogg clip was infuriating enough 
(George Monbiot's response made me smile: "_Man of the people, Jacob Rees-Mogg, sticking it to the Remainer Elite.")_

*Channel 4 Dispatches*‏:

"_The amount I receive is not for public disclosure."_

Dispatches reveals that Brexiteer and Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg may have earned at least £7 million since the 2016 EU referendum, from an investment firm he partly owns - which has seen its profits increase since the vote


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105108677768417280
..


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Labour couldn't have taken over Cheeky - they simply dont have the numbers since Mays DUP bribe. And when Corbyn tabled an amendment for a peoples vote, even the likes of Anna Soubry voted against it. Labour can't stop this train wreck.


Sadly, it has to be said Labour didn't do much to help either.

Only a few months back a leaflet from our local Labour party emphasised, "Labour respects the will of the people in voting to leave the EU". That made me so bloody angry, seeing I'm a traditional Labour supporter.

It probably wouldn't have helped, but a PV campaign much earlier rather than Corbyn and co. pushing for their own fantasy form of Brexit would've gained them more respect.

Too little too late unfortunately.

Whatever happens today I'll still be in London on Saturday 23rd March.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> What "Legally binding instrument"? The same one agreed in December? I can't possibly imagine Mayhas got exactly what she's wanted however much the BBC try and convince people otherwise. They've done this before.
> 
> Whatever happens today and if her latest publicity stunt at the expense of the taxpayer wins her parliamentary vote today this will leave most dissatisfied on both camps.
> 
> For one thing, the risk of a hard border in Ireland and other uncertainties persist.
> 
> Plus, the UK will become the only area in geographic Western Europe not to have FoM!
> 
> With Brexit out of the way, God help us all with another five years + of Theresa May.


According to the news on the radio May managed to get what MP's sent her back to Brussels to get "Changes to the Irish Back Stop". Junker confirmed an additional legally binding document has been made and said this in his speech last night. Theresa May explained last night with Junker that alternative arrangements will be agreed to before the UK leaves the transition period in December 2020. Looks like May got everything MP's sent her back to Brussels for.

What you on about the BBC for? Don't listen to that radio station.

Labour have said they will not be pursuing a second referendum amendment today.

Junker made it very clear last night in his speech that there will be no 3rd chances with the deal if Parliament reject it.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Sadly, it has to be said Labour didn't do much to help either.
> 
> Only a few months back a leaflet from our local Labour party emphasised, "Labour respects the will of the people in voting to leave the EU". That made me so bloody angry, seeing I'm a traditional Labour supporter.
> 
> It probably wouldn't have helped, but a PV campaign much earlier rather than Corbyn and co. pushing for their own fantasy form of Brexit would've gained them more respect.


I have been disappointed that they did not have a clearer message but I can see they are in a no win situation whatever they did. Many of labours own MPs don't want a peoples vote - and I'm not talking about MPs on the left. As you know I live in one of the labour strongholds which voted overwhelmingly to leave. If labour did not respect the wishes of the majority I fear they would be severely punished. As its now clear the tories have made a complete & utter hash of it, I'm hoping the majority is now a minority. If those campaigning for a peoples vote vote against Corbyns amendment for one, what is he supposed to do? He never would have had the numbers whenever he'd have tabled it.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.france24.com/en/2019031...-changes-brexit-deal-with-eu-ireland-backstop

*May secures 'legally binding' changes to Brexit deal with EU*


----------



## noushka05

I think today its worth reminding of ourselves of this >>









(have not fact checked them all but most are accurate)


----------



## noushka05

What a surprise.

*Kevin Doyle*‏Verified account @KevDoyle_Indo 8h8 hours ago

#BREAKING 
View from Dublin:

1. Withdrawal Agreement is unchanged

2. Joint statement is a legal interpretations of what's in the WA (agreed by both sides)

3. Unilateral statement is UK talking to themselves.

Mood in Gov Buildings described as "calm". #Brexit


----------



## noushka05

*Delay Brexit to save environment, green charities urge PM

Government has failed to live up to its protection standards promise, say green organisations*
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...t-to-save-environment-green-charities-warn-pm

*The Green Party*‏:
Brexit is a huge threat to our environment. 
Time and again, the Government has failed to show that environmental standards will be protected if we leave the EU. 
For the sake of our planet, let's extend article 50 and have a #PeoplesVote.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Official documents on the legally binding changes on the Irish Backstop: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...fore-parliament-following-political-agreement


----------



## noushka05

Corbyn nails it. Sadly brexit has proved to be a massive distraction. So selfish.

*Poverty and climate more important than Brexit, says Corbyn*
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...limate-more-important-than-brexit-says-corbyn


----------



## noushka05

ukcatdaddy said:


> Official documents on the legally binding changes on the Irish Backstop: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...fore-parliament-following-political-agreement


SWC used to give us a complete rundown just like this


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> According to the news on the radio May managed to get what MP's sent her back to Brussels to get "Changes to the Irish Back Stop". Junker confirmed an additional legally binding document has been made and said this in his speech last night. Theresa May explained last night with Junker that alternative arrangements will be agreed to before the UK leaves the transition period in December 2020. Looks like May got everything MP's sent her back to Brussels for.
> 
> What you on about the BBC for? Don't listen to that radio station.
> 
> Labour have said they will not be pursuing a second referendum amendment today.
> 
> Junker made it very clear last night in his speech that there will be no 3rd chances with the deal if Parliament reject it.


Well, the Tory-supporting media would say that wouldn't they. What guarantees are they that the ERG have got what they want, let alone remainers in Parliament?

May's deal only pleases Theresa May. Junker was a fool to agree another meeting with the vile wicked witch yesterday.

Let's say May's deal passes. Would you, who's argued for no deal be happy?


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> Official documents on the legally binding changes on the Irish Backstop: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...fore-parliament-following-political-agreement


As "Official" as the advisory and corrupt referendum no doubt.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> Did anyone watch Dispatches last night on the Brexit Millionaires? I havent. This Rees Mogg clip was infuriating enough
> (George Monbiot's response made me smile: "_Man of the people, Jacob Rees-Mogg, sticking it to the Remainer Elite.")_
> 
> *Channel 4 Dispatches*‏:
> 
> "_The amount I receive is not for public disclosure."_
> 
> Dispatches reveals that Brexiteer and Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg may have earned at least £7 million since the 2016 EU referendum, from an investment firm he partly owns - which has seen its profits increase since the vote
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105108677768417280
> ..


Does anyone else think we've been had?

*James Felton*‏:
_Looks like Jacob Rees Mogg, who has been telling struggling people they might not feel economic benefits of brexit for 50 years, has trousered £7 million
from his firm over the past two years whilst calling anyone who votes remain "the elite".

...
_


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> SWC used to give us a complete rundown just like this


He did. I miss him.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Theresa May explained last night with Junker that alternative arrangements *will be agreed *to before the UK leaves the transition period in December 2020. Looks like May got everything MP's sent her back to Brussels for.


Unless there's a different one somewhere the document (that you helpfully posted; thank you) states:

"The Parties *recall their determination to replace the backstop *solution on Northern Ireland by a subsequent agreement that establishes alternative arrangements for ensuring the absence of a hard border on the island of Ireland on a permanent footing."​
There is rather a big difference between 'will be agreed' and restating a determination to do so. It's an impossible requirement anyway; no-one can be legally bound to come up with a solution that doesn't currently exist by a fixed point in the future.

Edit: I've found the "Instrument" agreed yesterday. It states:

"The Union and the United Kingdom are therefore committed to working speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered."​
Which I think is pretty much the same as above. They will try jolly hard, but there are no guarantees ...


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> He did. I miss him.


Yeah. Though at least we have UKcatdaddy around, so its just like hes still here.


----------



## noushka05

#NothingHasChanged trending now on twitter lol

Who on earth would have voted for this on the ballot paper? And a no deal is a million times worse !


----------



## noushka05

*Jon Snow*‏Verified account @jonsnowC4
_A Lawyer contact tells me that the legal world is aware that the Attorney General said NO last night to the validity of Mrs May's 'new EU deal'...
he been told to go away and find a way to say YES: A cohort of lawyers has been summoned._


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Unless there's a different one somewhere the document (that you helpfully posted; thank you) states:
> 
> "The Parties *recall their determination to replace the backstop *solution on Northern Ireland by a subsequent agreement that establishes alternative arrangements for ensuring the absence of a hard border on the island of Ireland on a permanent footing."​
> There is rather a big difference between 'will be agreed' and restating a determination to do so. It's an impossible requirement anyway; no-one can be legally bound to come up with a solution that doesn't currently exist by a fixed point in the future.
> 
> Edit: I've found the "Instrument" agreed yesterday. It states:
> 
> "The Union and the United Kingdom are therefore committed to working speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered."​
> Which I think is pretty much the same as above. They will try jolly hard, but there are no guarantees ...


I guess much of today's debate will be about this bit...

12. The Union and the United Kingdom agree that it would be inconsistent with their obligations under Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement and Article 2(1) of the Protocol for either party to act with the objective of applying the Protocol indefinitely. Should the Union or the United Kingdom consider the other party was acting in this way after the Protocol became applicable, it could make use of the dispute settlement mechanism enshrined in Articles 167 to 181 of the Withdrawal Agreement.
13. If a dispute arises in relation to Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement and Article 2(1) of the Protocol, the Union and the United Kingdom will immediately enter into consultations in the Joint Committee. They will endeavour to resolve the dispute in a timely manner, with the aim of reaching a mutually agreed solution. With a view to facilitating such a solution, each party will provide a written reasoned justification of its respective position and will respond in writing to the other.

14. Under the dispute settlement mechanism, a ruling by the arbitration panel that a party acts with the objective of applying the Protocol indefinitely would be binding on the Union and the United Kingdom. Persistent failure by a party to comply with a ruling, and thus persistent failure by that party to return to compliance with its obligations under the Withdrawal Agreement, may result in temporary remedies. Ultimately, the aggrieved party would have the right to enact a unilateral, proportionate suspension of its obligations under the Withdrawal Agreement (other than Part Two), including the Protocol. Such a suspension may remain in place unless and until the offending party has taken the necessary measures to comply with the ruling of the arbitration panel.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> It's the same reason there's a photo of Nigel Farrage celebrating as the pound fell, they have certain investments that grow as we as a country do worse.


It's common practice to have investments tied with currencies etc. I don't see a problem with it as I do it myself


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> *Channel 4 Dispatches*‏:
> 
> "_The amount I receive is not for public disclosure."_
> 
> Dispatches reveals that Brexiteer and Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg may have earned at least £7 million since the 2016 EU referendum, from an investment firm he partly owns - which has seen its profits increase since the vote
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105108677768417280


It's an INVESTMENT, he is allowed to make money, how much was originally in the investment company? I don't think he has started with £100000 and its shot up to £7000000


----------



## noushka05

Very true.

Former Australian PM Kevin Rudd (Dec 2017):

_"The bottom line is that the Brexit decision by Britain is dumb. People seem to think that Australia is somehow standing in the streets applauding, 
waiting for Britain to 'come home'.

That's just nonsense. Your future lies in Europe."_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105233005994561536


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's common practice to have investments tied with currencies etc. I don't see a problem with it as I do it myself





AlexPed2393 said:


> It's an INVESTMENT, he is allowed to make money, how much was originally in the investment company? I don't think he has started with £100000 and its shot up to £7000000


You dont see a problem with them WANTING the pound to tank so hedge funders can make millions?  Brexit is going to make the majority of us poorer whilst that tiny minority get even richer.

This is why Mogg wants brexit, hes living his fathers dream. Hes a greedy disaster capitalist.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's common practice to have investments tied with currencies etc. I don't see a problem with it as I do it myself


You don't see a problem with these elites selling the masses on a no deal brexit (when it's the worst scenario for the country) when they'll cash in on it. JRM makes the most money out of a no deal, that's why he's pushing it.

I really can't get over he's managed to sell it to the 'plebs' that that's now what they want.


----------



## Satori

emmaviolet said:


> You don't see a problem with these elites selling the masses on a no deal brexit (when it's the worst scenario for the country) when they'll cash in on it. JRM makes the most money out of a no deal, that's why he's pushing it.
> 
> I really can't get over he's managed to sell it to the 'plebs' that that's now what they want.


I can't see how anyone could have a problem with that. It merely demonstrates that he has the courage of his convictions. He deserves to gain from that surely?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You dont see a problem with them WANTING the pound to tank so hedge funders can make millions?  Brexit is going to make the majority of us poorer whilst that tiny minority get even richer.
> 
> This is why Mogg wants brexit, hes living his fathers dream. Hes a greedy disaster capitalist.





emmaviolet said:


> You don't see a problem with these elites selling the masses on a no deal brexit (when it's the worst scenario for the country) when they'll cash in on it. JRM makes the most money out of a no deal, that's why he's pushing it.
> 
> I really can't get over he's managed to sell it to the 'plebs' that that's now what they want.


Do neither of you think that other members of parliament will make massive swathes of money if there is a deal? Whatever happens SOMEONE will be making millions of pounds from the outcome. How JRM organises his personal finances and investments shouldn't be open for discussion.

All people who have a slight understanding of investments will be putting money in the correct places as we speak/type to protect their portfolios and keep profits coming in. Investments of this magnitude shouldn't really be based around morals, they should be done over how much money is to be made. Whether you like it or not, someone is making money JRM or not


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> SWC used to give us a complete rundown just like this


Edited, note to self, there's no point Emma, it's pretty clear what's happening here.


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> Do neither of you think that other members of parliament will make massive swathes of money if there is a deal? Whatever happens SOMEONE will be making millions of pounds from the outcome. How JRM organises his personal finances and investments shouldn't be open for discussion.
> 
> All people who have a slight understanding of investments will be putting money in the correct places as we speak/type to protect their portfolios and keep profits coming in. Investments of this magnitude shouldn't really be based around morals, they should be done over how much money is to be made. Whether you like it or not, someone is making money JRM or not


Certain responses remind me of a line from Friends.

'He got you to beg to sleep with him, he got you to say he never has to call you again, and he's got you thinking this was a great idea. This man is my God.'


----------



## emmaviolet

Satori said:


> I can't see how anyone could have a problem with that. It merely demonstrates that he has the courage of his convictions. He deserves to gain from that surely?


Pretty much a conflict of interest.

He's lobbying and promoting something that will make the county, and his constituents worse off as it'll make him richer and not even disclosing he has interests in the countries failure.

You don't see the problem there? I suppose his job is done with you.


----------



## Elles

If he can make money out of Brexit, so can other investors and the government. Maybe they should listen to his experts, if making money is their interest.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> Certain responses remind me of a line from friends.
> 
> 'He got you to beg to sleep with him, he got you to say he never has to call you again, and he's got you thinking this was a great idea. This man is my God.'


That doesn't really progress the conversation you're basically saying I'm a deluded imbecile that believes everything certain people say...


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> That doesn't really progress the conversation you're basically saying I'm a deluded imbecile that believes everything certain people say...


That's not what I said, but that's your interpretation of what I said.....


----------



## Happy Paws2

Do they think we are thick nothing has changed, does she really think by changing a few words makes anything difference, she's lied her we thought the whole debate, and still is. 

It's like saying the cat sat on the mat, then saying, on the mat the cat sat, same thing. Stupid woman.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> That's not what I said, but that's your interpretation of what I said.....


... then what were you trying to insinuate with the quote. (God this is painful) :Hilarious


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> ... then what were you trying to insinuate with the quote. *(God this is painful)* :Hilarious


Yes, quite.

Interpret it how you wish. If you believe yourself to be a 'deluded imbecile that believes everything certain people say' so be it. You said it, I didn't.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Oh I give up :Mooning


----------



## ukcatdaddy

DUP are giving the legally binding addition careful consideration and are waiting for the Attorney General says. Previously the DUP have been quick to dismiss changes but are not doing this this time. It is believed if the DUP back the legally binding addition to the withdrawal agreement the ERG will and this will be enough to narrowly pass the withdrawal agreement. It all depends though on what the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox says.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Does anyone else think we've been had?
> 
> *James Felton*‏:
> _Looks like Jacob Rees Mogg, who has been telling struggling people they might not feel economic benefits of brexit for 50 years, has trousered £7 million
> from his firm over the past two years whilst calling anyone who votes remain "the elite".
> 
> ..._


But the Ruling Classes are superior and more deserving aren't they?

Look at how the monarchy are worshipped. Perhaps that extends to Mogg, Johnson and co..


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Do neither of you think that other members of parliament will make massive swathes of money if there is a deal? Whatever happens SOMEONE will be making millions of pounds from the outcome. How JRM organises his personal finances and investments shouldn't be open for discussion.


I believe the bone of contention is that MPs are supposedly elected to run the country for the overall benefit of the general populace, and not to abuse that position for personal profit for them and their rich mates..



AlexPed2393 said:


> All people who have a slight understanding of investments will be putting money in the correct places as we speak/type to protect their portfolios and keep profits coming in. *Investments of this magnitude shouldn't really be based around morals, they should be done over how much money is to be made*. Whether you like it or not, someone is making money JRM or not


And THAT is the real heart of the problem. Whenever it is decided that profit is the only thing that counts, and morals cease to matter, it invariably means a complete disregard for whoever or whatever ends up exploited and suffering in the pursuit of it...


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> I guess much of today's debate will be about this bit...
> 
> 12. The Union and the United Kingdom agree that it would be inconsistent with their obligations under Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement and Article 2(1) of the Protocol for either party to act with the objective of applying the Protocol indefinitely. Should the Union or the United Kingdom consider the other party was acting in this way after the Protocol became applicable, it could make use of the dispute settlement mechanism enshrined in Articles 167 to 181 of the Withdrawal Agreement.
> 13. If a dispute arises in relation to Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement and Article 2(1) of the Protocol, the Union and the United Kingdom will immediately enter into consultations in the Joint Committee. They will endeavour to resolve the dispute in a timely manner, with the aim of reaching a mutually agreed solution. With a view to facilitating such a solution, each party will provide a written reasoned justification of its respective position and will respond in writing to the other.
> 
> 14. Under the dispute settlement mechanism, a ruling by the arbitration panel that a party acts with the objective of applying the Protocol indefinitely would be binding on the Union and the United Kingdom. Persistent failure by a party to comply with a ruling, and thus persistent failure by that party to return to compliance with its obligations under the Withdrawal Agreement, may result in temporary remedies. Ultimately, the aggrieved party would have the right to enact a unilateral, proportionate suspension of its obligations under the Withdrawal Agreement (other than Part Two), including the Protocol. Such a suspension may remain in place unless and until the offending party has taken the necessary measures to comply with the ruling of the arbitration panel.


It may well be, but that looks like little comfort to those who wanted a unilateral way for the UK to wind up the backstop agreement, or have a fixed end date to it.

For starters, why would the EU act in bad faith to keep us in an arrangement where we get the advantages of the customs union and single market but without free movement or fees (at current levels)? It's better than the 27 members get!

Secondly, all we can do is go to an arbitration panel and try to persuade them to agree with us, which doesn't leave us in control.

If we sign this deal then we are pretty much stuck in the backstop until new and very impressive technology is invented, assuming we don't agree to stay in the CU and SM anyway. It really changes somewhere between very little and diddly squat.


----------



## Magyarmum

Press release from the EU. Hope all the links work!

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-19-1635_en.htm

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...n-president-european-council-11-march-2019_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...ted-agreement-withdrawal-uk-eu-and-euratom_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...britain-and-northern-ireland-european-union-a

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...framework-future-relationship-between-europea


----------



## KittenKong

Taking _back _control.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> DUP are giving the legally binding addition careful consideration and are waiting for the Attorney General says. Previously the DUP have been quick to dismiss changes but are not doing this this time. It is believed if the DUP back the legally binding addition to the withdrawal agreement the ERG will and this will be enough to narrowly pass the withdrawal agreement. It all depends though on what the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox says.


Attorney General to address the Commons @ c. 12.30 apparently.

Meanwhile, from the Beeb:

Practising barristers David Anderson, Jason Coppel QC and Sean Aughey share their legal opinion for the People's Vote campaign on the Brexit measures.

They say the measures do not allow the UK to terminate the backstop if negotiations are not satisfactorily concluded, nor do they provide the UK with a right to terminate the backstop at a time of its choosing.​
Their full executive summary below:



Spoiler



1. The Government and the EU have announced a package of measures relating to the Northern Ireland backstop in the EU Withdrawal Agreement. The measures were intended to address concerns - shared by the Attorney General - that the backstop would endure indefinitely, unless and until replaced by a subsequent agreement with the EU.

2. In our opinion these measures:
a. do not allow the UK to terminate the backstop in the event that negotiations over its future relationship with the EU cannot be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and
b. do not provide the UK with a right to terminate the backstop at a time of its choosing, or indeed at any time, without the agreement of the EU.​
3. The furthest they go is to reiterate the possibility that the backstop might be suspended in extreme circumstances of bad faith on the part of the EU which are highly unlikely to be demonstrated. This was already apparent from the Withdrawal Agreement, and had been acknowledged in the Attorney General's previous legal advice.

4. Looking at the measures individually:
a. The joint EU-UK instrument relating to the Withdrawal Agreement reduces the risk that the UK could be deliberately, and in bad faith, held in the backstop indefinitely. That was only ever a very limited risk. The far greater risk of being held in the backstop indefinitely as a result of the failure of good faith negotiations remains unmitigated.
b. The UK's unilateral declaration goes beyond the joint instrument only in suggesting that the UK might seek to disapply the backstop as a whole if negotiations had failed because of bad faith on the part of the EU. It does not suggest that there are any circumstances other than proven bad faith in which the backstop might be disapplied. Whether or not the UK's understanding of the Withdrawal Agreement is correct will be a matter for the Court of Justice of the EU, which is likely to be sceptical not least because the UK's declaration goes beyond the terms of the joint instrument.
c. The joint EU-UK statement supplementing the Political Declaration has no effect whatsoever on the Withdrawal Agreement but merely explains certain of the parties' aspirations for the future negotiations and the future relationship.​
5. Taken as a whole, these measures do not come close to meeting the ERG's test of clearly worded, "treaty level" provisions which unambiguously override the stipulation of the Withdrawal Agreement that the backstop shall remain unless and until the UK and the EU agree otherwise.

6. It is crystal clear that the measures do not alter the fundamental legal effect of the backstop, as previously and correctly explained by the Attorney General. The backstop will endure indefinitely, unless and until superseded by another agreement, save in the extreme and unlikely event that in future negotiations the EU acts in bad faith in rejecting the UK's demands.



It will be interesting to see how the AG formulates some words to make it sound better than that!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Attorney General to address the Commons @ c. 12.30 apparently.
> 
> Meanwhile, from the Beeb:
> 
> Practising barristers David Anderson, Jason Coppel QC and Sean Aughey share their legal opinion for the People's Vote campaign on the Brexit measures.
> 
> They say the measures do not allow the UK to terminate the backstop if negotiations are not satisfactorily concluded, nor do they provide the UK with a right to terminate the backstop at a time of its choosing.​
> Their full executive summary below:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The Government and the EU have announced a package of measures relating to the Northern Ireland backstop in the EU Withdrawal Agreement. The measures were intended to address concerns - shared by the Attorney General - that the backstop would endure indefinitely, unless and until replaced by a subsequent agreement with the EU.
> 
> 2. In our opinion these measures:
> a. do not allow the UK to terminate the backstop in the event that negotiations over its future relationship with the EU cannot be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and
> b. do not provide the UK with a right to terminate the backstop at a time of its choosing, or indeed at any time, without the agreement of the EU.​
> 3. The furthest they go is to reiterate the possibility that the backstop might be suspended in extreme circumstances of bad faith on the part of the EU which are highly unlikely to be demonstrated. This was already apparent from the Withdrawal Agreement, and had been acknowledged in the Attorney General's previous legal advice.
> 
> 4. Looking at the measures individually:
> a. The joint EU-UK instrument relating to the Withdrawal Agreement reduces the risk that the UK could be deliberately, and in bad faith, held in the backstop indefinitely. That was only ever a very limited risk. The far greater risk of being held in the backstop indefinitely as a result of the failure of good faith negotiations remains unmitigated.
> b. The UK's unilateral declaration goes beyond the joint instrument only in suggesting that the UK might seek to disapply the backstop as a whole if negotiations had failed because of bad faith on the part of the EU. It does not suggest that there are any circumstances other than proven bad faith in which the backstop might be disapplied. Whether or not the UK's understanding of the Withdrawal Agreement is correct will be a matter for the Court of Justice of the EU, which is likely to be sceptical not least because the UK's declaration goes beyond the terms of the joint instrument.
> c. The joint EU-UK statement supplementing the Political Declaration has no effect whatsoever on the Withdrawal Agreement but merely explains certain of the parties' aspirations for the future negotiations and the future relationship.​
> 5. Taken as a whole, these measures do not come close to meeting the ERG's test of clearly worded, "treaty level" provisions which unambiguously override the stipulation of the Withdrawal Agreement that the backstop shall remain unless and until the UK and the EU agree otherwise.
> 
> 6. It is crystal clear that the measures do not alter the fundamental legal effect of the backstop, as previously and correctly explained by the Attorney General. The backstop will endure indefinitely, unless and until superseded by another agreement, save in the extreme and unlikely event that in future negotiations the EU acts in bad faith in rejecting the UK's demands.
> 
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the AG formulates some words to make it sound better than that!


Apparently more MP's are coming forward requesting a delay on the meaningful vote so they can properly scrutinise the legal binding document. It is going to be an interesting day.


----------



## Elles

But practically all of this thread has been about making money. Now someone who said we can be better off if we vote leave, is better off after we voted leave, thus proving that what he said is true, where before he was called liar, now he’s being called immoral. Lol


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Apparently more MP's are coming forward requesting a delay on the meaningful vote so they can properly scrutinise the legal binding document. It is going to be an interesting day.


AG's advice has been published.

Its last paragraph states that the legal risk remains pretty much unchanged: "If through no such demonstrable failure of either party, nut simply because of intractable differences" we can't agree a replacement for the backstop there is "No internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol's arrangements [i.e. the backstop] save by agreement."

That doesn't sound like something that would convince either the DUP or the ERG. We shall see.

Edit: Here it is in full - Best to skip to the Conclusion in the last few paragraphs!



Spoiler



Dear Prime Minister,

Legal Opinion on Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration concerning the Withdrawal Agreement

1. I have considered the documents entitled "Instrument Relating To The Agreement On The Withdrawal Of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland From The European Union And The European Atomic Energy Community" (the "Joint Instrument") and the Declaration By Her Majesty's Government Of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland Concerning The Northern Ireland Protocol (the "Unilateral Declaration"), which were concluded with the EU late last night.

2. As the preamble states, the Joint Instrument is an instrument relating to the Withdrawal Agreement which was made in connection with its conclusion and is accepted by both parties. Therefore, pursuant to the principle set out in Article 31 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which is widely accepted as reflecting customary international law, the Joint Instrument has binding legal effect as a document that is to be taken as an authentic interpretation of the Withdrawal Agreement.

3. The Unilateral Declaration sets out the United Kingdom's position on the Withdrawal Agreement and the Joint Instrument. A unilateral declaration by one party to a bilateral agreement constitutes an authentic interpretation of the treaty if it is accepted by the other party. While it is not an agreed document, it too has legal status as an interpretative document, and will be lodged with the depositary of the Withdrawal Agreement and form part of the context of the treaty in accordance with the principle set out in Article 31 of the Vienna Convention.
Joint Instrument

4. The Joint Instrument essentially puts the commitments in the letter from Presidents Tusk and Juncker of 14 January 2019 into a legally binding form and provides, in addition, useful clarifications, amplifications of existing obligations and some new obligations, which in certain significant respects would facilitate the effective enforcement of the UK's rights in the event of a breach of the good faith and best endeavours obligations by the EU.

5. For example, paragraph 4 provides that "a systematic refusal to take into consideration adverse proposals or interests" would constitute a breach of the best endeavours and good faith duties in Article 2(1) of the Protocol and Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement respectively. Paragraph 5 creates a new emphasis on the diligent prosecution of the negotiations of a subsequent agreement to replace the Protocol (in whole or in part) by providing that they should be treated as a priority and that if the agreement, which paragraph 11 stipulates may be a stand-alone agreement, has not been concluded within one year of the United Kingdom's withdrawal, efforts must be "redoubled". Paragraph 6 binds the EU and the United Kingdom to specific operational commitments to fulfil the duty "to working speedily on a subsequent agreement that establishes by 31 December 2020 alternative arrangements, so that the backstop will not need to be triggered."

6. These include establishing "immediately following the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement, a negotiating track for replacing the customs and regulatory alignment in goods elements of the Protocol with alternative arrangements", which requires consideration of "comprehensive customs cooperation arrangements, facilitative arrangements and technologies." By paragraph 10, the alternative arrangements which supersede the Protocol "are not required to replicate its provisions in any respect."

7. In my view, these provisions of the Joint Instrument extend beyond mere interpretation of the Withdrawal Agreement and represent materially new legal obligations and commitments, which amplify its existing terms and make time of the essence in replacing the backstop. Therefore, provided the United Kingdom can clearly demonstrate in practice that it is effectively organised and prepared to maintain the urgent pace of negotiations that they imply, the EU could not fail to match it without being at risk of breaching the best endeavours obligation.

8. Furthermore, given the legally binding acceptance that the provisions of the Protocol need not be replicated and the connected heavy emphasis on alternative arrangements, including the discrete negotiating track for their use in replacing the regulatory and customs alignment elements of the Protocol, it would be unconscionable and a potential breach of the duties of good faith and best endeavours were the EU to decline to adopt any practicable alternative arrangements of the type described if they helped to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland and did not require it to make unreasonable adjustments of its interests.

9. By paragraph 12, the parties expressly agree that if the UK could demonstrate the EU was acting with the objective of applying the Protocol indefinitely, the EU could not dispute that its actions breached the duty of good faith. For this purpose, in the light of paragraph 4, it would, in my view, be sufficient to show a pattern of unjustified delay by the EU, having regard to the urgency agreed to be necessary by the parties, to raise a prima facie case of breach. It also confirms that a breach of these obligations is arbitrable under the dispute resolution provisions of the Withdrawal Agreement. If a party wishes to make such an allegation, paragraph 13 now provides for an obligatory exchange of written reasoned justifications of their position. If the arbitration tribunal upholds the complaint, and the recalcitrant party does not comply with its ruling, the other may unilaterally take proportionate counter-measures, which may (pursuant to Article 178(2) of the Withdrawal Agreement) include suspension of all or parts of the Protocol, including the backstop, until there is satisfactory compliance. The confirmation that the obligations under the Protocol are indeed arbitrable and subject to the counter-measures available to the United Kingdom is another welcome clarification.

10. In the light of these clarificatory provisions of the Joint Instrument, it is instructive to revisit Article 20 of the Protocol. This provision allows termination by mutual consent when, in the view of both Parties, the Protocol is in whole or in part "no longer necessary" to achieve the objectives set out in Article 1.3. In my Advice of 13 November 2018, I considered that the better view was that the obligations under this Article were arbitrable. In my view, in the event of a prolonged suspension of parts of the Protocol's provisions that has not been lifted because of the compliance of the EU, but the functions of which had been secured by other measures, it would be possible to contend to the arbitration tribunal effectively that the inaction of the EU meant that those provisions were plainly no longer necessary and that a refusal to consent to that proposition by the EU was unjustified. In those circumstances, it is arguable that the United Kingdom could secure the termination of the relevant obligations under the Protocol.

Unilateral Declaration

11. The Unilateral Declaration recalls the agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU expressed in Article 1(4) of the Protocol that the objective of the Withdrawal Agreement is not to establish a permanent relationship between the EU and the United Kingdom and that the provisions of the Protocol are, therefore, intended to apply only temporarily, taking into account the commitments of the Parties in Article 2(1) of the Protocol to use their best endeavours to conclude, by 31 December 2020, an agreement which supersedes the Protocol in whole or in part.

12. The function of the Unilateral Declaration is to record the United Kingdom's position that, if it were not possible to conclude a subsequent agreement to replace the Protocol because of a breach by the EU of its duty of good faith under Article 5 of the Withdrawal Agreement, it would be entitled to take measures to disapply the provisions of the Protocol in accordance with the Withdrawal Agreement's dispute resolution procedures and Article 20 to which I have referred.

13. This Unilateral Declaration, to which I understand the EU has agreed it will not object, further confirms the advice I have given at paragraphs 4-10 above.
14. For these reasons, there is no doubt, in my view, that the clarifications and amplified obligations contained in the Joint Instrument and the Declaration provide a substantive and binding reinforcement of the legal rights available to the United Kingdom in the event that the EU were to fail in its duties of good faith and best endeavours.

Conclusion

15. In my letter of 13 November 2018, I advised that the Protocol would endure indefinitely in international law and could not be brought to an end in the absence of a subsequent agreement. This would remain the case even if parties were still negotiating many years later, and even if the parties believed that talks have clearly broken down and there was no prospect of a future relationship agreement.

16. I also advised that in the specific case that situation was due to the EU's want of good faith and best endeavours, because of the difficulties of proof and the egregious nature of the conduct that would be required to establish a breach by the EU of those obligations, it would be highly unlikely that the United Kingdom could take advantage of the remedies available to it for such a breach under the Withdrawal Agreement.

17. I now consider that the legally binding provisions of the Joint Instrument and the content of the Unilateral Declaration reduce the risk that the United Kingdom could be indefinitely and involuntarily detained within the Protocol's provisions at least in so far as that situation had been brought about by the bad faith or want of best endeavours of the EU.

18. It may be thought that if both parties deploy a sincere desire to reach agreement and the necessary diligence, flexibility and goodwill implied by the amplified duties set out in the Joint Instrument, it is highly unlikely that a satisfactory subsequent agreement to replace the Protocol will not be concluded. But as I have previously advised, that is a political judgment, which, given the mutual incentives of the parties and the available options and competing risks, I remain strongly of the view it is right to make.

19. However, the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, that situation does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol's arrangements, save by agreement.


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> But practically all of this thread has been about making money. Now someone who said we can be better off if we vote leave, is better off after we voted leave, thus proving that what he said is true, where before he was called liar, now he's being called immoral. Lol


That's actually not quite what's happened here, but there you go.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> But practically all of this thread has been about making money. Now someone who said we can be better off if we vote leave, is better off after we voted leave, *thus proving that what he said is true*, where before he was called liar, now he's being called immoral. Lol


That's really stretching it!

Had he said, "If we leave I, Jacob Rees-Mogg, will be better off" then yes, I would agree.


----------



## emmaviolet

ukcatdaddy said:


> Apparently more MP's are coming forward requesting a delay on the meaningful vote so they can properly scrutinise the legal binding document. It is going to be an interesting day.


Absolutely nothing has changed, why do they need an extra day?


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> That's actually not quite what's happened here, but there you go.


Do explain as to what has happened then


----------



## ukcatdaddy

If it is the case that nothing has changed the deal will get voted down (I am not a lawyer so do not know the legal jargon) then tomorrow MP's vote on no deal if that is rejected then MP's vote on extending article 50 delaying brexit happening by 3 months (the EU have to agree to this and could reject it next week) if MP's vote this down the UK leaves with no deal. This is the way I understand the situation from what has been said. The UK can still leave with no deal if article 50 is extended by the way. The article 50 extension can only happen if there is a reason and the PM has made it clear she will only seek a short extension if article 50 is extended.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Here is the Attorney Generals statement: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Absolutely nothing has changed, why do they need an extra day?


Slow readers?


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> If it is the case that nothing has changed the deal will get voted down (I am not a lawyer so do not know the legal jargon) then tomorrow MP's vote on no deal if that is rejected then MP's vote on extending article 50 delaying brexit happening by 3 months (the EU have to agree to this and could reject it next week) if MP's vote this down the UK leaves with no deal. This is the way I understand the situation from what has been said. The UK can still leave with no deal if article 50 is extended by the way. The article 50 extension can only happen if there is a reason and *the PM has made it clear she will only seek a short extension if article 50 is extended*.


The PM makes a lot of things clear that subsequently change completely!


----------



## emmaviolet

JRM saying it's all exactly the same as it has been.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> If it is the case that nothing has changed the deal will get voted down (I am not a lawyer so do not know the legal jargon) then tomorrow MP's vote on no deal if that is rejected then MP's vote on extending article 50 delaying brexit happening by 3 months (the EU have to agree to this and could reject it next week) if MP's vote this down the UK leaves with no deal. This is the way I understand the situation from what has been said. The UK can still leave with no deal if article 50 is extended by the way. The article 50 extension can only happen if there is a reason and the PM has made it clear she will only seek a short extension if article 50 is extended.


What makes you think MPs would vote for no deal should they reject May's deal tonight seeing only a hard core, less than 100 MPs would support it!

The only way to guarantee no deal is a PV that backs that option.

Worth thinking about before you cry it's undemocratic to challenge a corrupt referendum result.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Slow readers?


I think you're on to something with *slow!*


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Here is the Attorney Generals statement: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate


For those who might not be able to read PDF's the whole thing is in the spoiler in my post 10817 one page back.


----------



## emmaviolet

And of course the pound is tanking, so JRM and Farrarge and the lot who are invested with our country doing badly are popping the corks!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> What makes you think MPs would vote for no deal should they reject May's deal tonight seeing only a hard core, less than 100 MPs would support it!
> 
> The only way to guarantee no deal is a PV that backs that option.
> 
> Worth thinking about before you cry it's undemocratic to challenge a corrupt referendum result.


There is no appetite in Parliament from what I understand for another referendum at this time hence why Labour are not pursuing an amendment for one today.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> The PM makes a lot of things clear that subsequently change completely!


MP's are just trying to waste time if nothing as you keep stating has changed by asking for more time to scrutinise the legally binding addition to the withdrawal agreement. Or perhaps you are right they are slow readers or find it hard understanding things.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Let's see which way the DUP propose to vote tonight.


----------



## emmaviolet

ukcatdaddy said:


> There is no appetite in Parliament from what I understand for another referendum at this time hence why Labour are not pursuing an amendment for one today.


TBH there's no appetite in the commons for brexit. The overwhelming majority there voted to remain.

We're actually being held to what the minority in the commons want, the ERG and the DUP especially. Don't underestimate the minority.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> We;re actually being held to what the minority in the commons want, the ERG and the DUP especially. Don't underestimate the minority.


But the majority of the populace voted for us to leave. As it is a democratic vote it shouldn't matter what an MP's personal opinions are, they should carry out the wish of their constituents.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://news.sky.com/story/economy-grows-at-fastest-pace-for-25-months-in-january-11662927

*Economy grows at fastest pace for 25 months in January*


----------



## kimthecat

ukcatdaddy said:


> Apparently more MP's are coming forward requesting a delay on the meaningful vote so they can properly scrutinise the legal binding document. It is going to be an interesting day.


I agree with that I think they should have a short delay. They've not been given much time.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/economy-grows-at-fastest-pace-for-25-months-in-january-11662927
> 
> *Economy grows at fastest pace for 25 months in January*


*UK economy stalls despite strong January*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47535182


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> But the majority of the populace voted for us to leave. As it is a democratic vote it shouldn't matter what an MP's personal opinions are, they should carry out the wish of their constituents.


Not quite accurate; a very slender majority of those eligible to participate in the referendum voted to leave, and at the point they did so what 'leave' would look like was 100% undefined (as opposed to, oh, about 95% undefined now?  ).

Personally, I can't understand why Our Glorious Leaders are so opposed to going back to the people and asking if they are happy with what the negotiations have achieved on their behalf...


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> But the majority of the populace voted for us to leave. As it is a democratic vote it shouldn't matter what an MP's personal opinions are, they should carry out the wish of their constituents.


That's not the same thing as what they are holding the country ransom for.

People may have voted Leave, they didn't vote for no deal extreme cliff dive brexit, and the leaflets handed out said we would get a deal.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Attonery General Geoffrey Cox has just told the house to vote for this withdrawal agreement deal in response to Labours Shadow Attorney General comments that nothing has changed. The Attorney General explained things have changed on the deal with the 3 new legal binding documents.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> How JRM organises his personal finances and investments shouldn't be open for discussion.


That was pretty much his exact reply.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Attonery General Geoffrey Cox has just told the house to vote for this withdrawal agreement deal in response to Labours Shadow Attorney General comments that nothing has changed. The Attorney General explained things have changed on the deal with the 3 new legal binding documents.


"The legal risk remains unchanged."

Some details might have changed, but they are trivial compared to this quoted conclusion in his legal advice.

Plus, of course, he is a member of the Tory Cabinet, so he is frantically spinning it.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> *Economy grows at fastest pace for 25 months in January*


 HOW DARE YOU!! I shall report you for being an optimist.


----------



## emmaviolet

From the Vote Leave campaign themselves.......

*'Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.'
*
This was their official position, they wanted a deal and to have one before we even began leaving, but somehow they are stating, and getting people who voted leave, to say they always wanted a no deal. The very thing that benefits JRM and the like. It's interesting, no?


----------



## kimthecat

Its been nearly 3 years since the Referendum . I really hope they can come to a solution because it feels like life is on hold.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

These 3 documents rely on good faith and if there is bad faith from the EU the UK has the right to fully withdraw from the EU backstop. These documents give a framework for future negotiations with the EU for the future relationship and trade deal. For the UK to be able to do this MP's have to vote for this withdrawal deal. So yes things have changed. Geoffrey Cox is explaining things now. The UK (including Northern Ireland) will be protected from any bad faith deals or bad faith decisions by the EU towards the UK it gives the UK the power to take the EU to arbitration and leave the EU backstop.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> These 3 documents rely on good faith and if there is bad faith from the EU the UK has the right to fully withdraw from the EU. These documents give a framework for future negotiations with the EU for the future relationship and trade deal. For the UK to be able to do this MP's have to vote for this withdrawal deal. So yes things have changed. Geoffrey Cox is explaining things now. The UK (including Northern Ireland) will be protected from any bad faith deals or bad faith decisions by the EU towards the UK it gives the UK the power to take the EU to arbitration and leave the EU.


But if they act in good faith, but simply disagree with us, then we can do nothing.

And why would they want to act in bad faith when it is in their own interests _not_ to have the UK in a backstop arrangement?


----------



## Arnie83

Nigel Dodds [DUP] looked to me as though he liked Cox's answer to his question in the Commons.

I can honestly see the DUP supporting the WA tonight, and the ERG falling into step behind them. It could pass.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> But if they act in good faith, but simply disagree with us, then we can do nothing.
> 
> And why would they want to act in bad faith when it is in their own interests _not_ to have the UK in a backstop arrangement?


If you can listen to what Cox is saying.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Nigel Dodds [DUP] looked to me as though he liked Cox's answer to his question in the Commons.
> 
> I can honestly see the DUP supporting the WA tonight, and the ERG falling into step behind them. It could pass.


I can see the deal slipping across the line tonight and being agreed to.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> There is no appetite in Parliament from what I understand for another referendum at this time hence why Labour are not pursuing an amendment for one today.


"There is no appetite", a very SWC term that!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

KittenKong said:


> "There is no appetite", a very SWC term that!


There is no appetite though hence why labour are not pursuing a motion for a second referendum.

Stop comparing me to SWC.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> If you can listen to what Cox is saying.


 I have been listening since he started talking.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> I have been listening since he started talking.


Why then ask me questions. Listen to what the man is saying.

I have heard everything he has said and fully understood him.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> But if they act in good faith, but simply disagree with us, then we can do nothing.
> 
> And why would they want to act in bad faith when it is in their own interests _not_ to have the UK in a backstop arrangement?


There being no legal definition of 'bad faith' or 'best endeavours' means it's pretty much meaningless.


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> Stop comparing me to SWC.


If someone compared me to Goblin I'd be flattered!

Still, I'll shut up and allow the thread to remain on topic.


----------



## KittenKong

I do hope so.
Anything to wipe the grin of the wicked witch's face.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Nigel Dodds [DUP] looked to me as though he liked Cox's answer to his question in the Commons.
> 
> I can honestly see the DUP supporting the WA tonight, and the ERG falling into step behind them. It could pass.


The ERG has said they do not recommend accepting the governments motion today. I suspect some members of the ERG will vote for it though despite the fact nothing much has actually changed!


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Why then ask me questions. Listen to what the man is saying.
> 
> I have heard everything he has said and fully understood him.


Good for you.

I ask because it's good to discuss things on threads like this, and Cox is a Tory politician and it is not always a good idea to believe what politicians of any sort say - as I've tried to point out to you many times in this thread - let alone Cabinet members desperate to get May's deal over the line. His legal opinion is one thing, his political opinion quite another.

The point is that unless the EU acts in bad faith, and we can prove it to an arbitration panel, nothing has changed. So it's salient to ask why the EU would want to do that.


----------



## Elles

The DUP and the ERG have been advised by their legal eagles not to accept the deal.

I suppose they’re hoping we leave with no deal and Remainers are hoping we stay in. TM’s deal is neither.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

3dogs2cats said:


> The ERG has said they do not recommend accepting the governments motion today. I suspect some members of the ERG will vote for it though despite the fact nothing much has actually changed!


There is quite a few hours before the votes tonight.

The DUP Nigel Dodds seems to be happy about what Cox told him and I think it is almost certain that if they vote in favour of the Deal the ERG will follow. We will see what happens when they start debating. Personally I think the DUP are now happy to vote for the deal.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The DUP and the ERG have been advised by their legal eagles not to accept the deal.
> 
> I suppose they're hoping we leave with no deal and Remainers are hoping we stay in. TM's deal is neither.


Interesting. Thanks for that.

Game on!


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Elles said:


> The DUP and the ERG have been advised by their legal eagles not to accept the deal.
> 
> I suppose they're hoping we leave with no deal and Remainers are hoping we stay in. TM's deal is neither.


Will there be enough MP's voting for no deal in Parliament if this gets voted for tomorrow to get a no deal vote?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> "There is no appetite", a very SWC term that!


ukcatdaddy joined in August 2018 when SWC was still a fully paid-up member. Are we to suppose he had two accounts for several months?


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> There being no legal definition of 'bad faith' or 'best endeavours' means it's pretty much meaningless.


I find it confusing . I'm sure they said that Bad Faith was a legal term . 
perhaps its just with insurance .
I Binged and found this,

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=21









bad faith
1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a "bad faith" contract or "bad faith" offer.

See also: clean hands doctrine fraud good faith


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I ask because it's good to discuss things on threads like this, and Cox is a Tory politician and it is not always a good idea to believe what politicians of any sort say - as I've tried to point out to you many times in this thread - let alone Cabinet members desperate to get May's deal over the line. His legal opinion is one thing, his political opinion quite another.


Somehow, this springs to mind:


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> I find it confusing . I'm sure they said that Bad Faith was a legal term .
> perhaps its just with insurance .
> I Binged and found this,
> 
> https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bad faith
> 1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a "bad faith" contract or "bad faith" offer.
> 
> See also: clean hands doctrine fraud good faith


But no actual action. So if there's a disagreement over it, it won't be 'bad faith'.

Anyway, this will be interesting tonight.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> But no actual action. So if there's a disagreement over it, it won't be 'bad faith'.
> 
> Anyway, this will be interesting tonight.


It certainly will and scary too.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

They are about to enter into the main debate. What time is the actual voting tonight?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ukcatdaddy said:


> Will there be enough MP's voting for no deal in Parliament if this gets voted for tomorrow to get a no deal vote?


 Do you mean if the Government loses again tonight and the no deal goes ahead tomorrow? I doubt very many MPs would vote in favour of a no - deal!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ukcatdaddy said:


> They are about to enter into the main debate. What time is the actual voting tonight?


 Approx. 7pm I think.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> ukcatdaddy joined in August 2018 when SWC was still a fully paid-up member. Are we to suppose he had two accounts for several months?


Unless they were separated at birth, yes.


----------



## Arnie83

A question that gets a bit lost in all this kerfuffle is: Should there be some sort of breach of good faith and the UK can withdraw from the backstop arrangement as a result, what then happens in Ireland? Because by withdrawing we are pretty much inviting the EU to put up a border.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Not quite accurate; a very slender majority of those eligible to participate in the referendum voted to leave, and at the point they did so what 'leave' would look like was 100% undefined (as opposed to, oh, about 95% undefined now?  ).
> 
> Personally, I can't understand why Our Glorious Leaders are so opposed to going back to the people and asking if they are happy with what the negotiations have achieved on their behalf...


Not going in to what reasons had to vote. The thing is it was voted on and the majority chose leave, don't care how minor or major it was. If we had voted to stay in I wouldn't have been ranting on about it nearly three years later how it was such a big injustice that we have to stay in the EU


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> That's not the same thing as what they are holding the country ransom for.
> 
> People may have voted Leave, they didn't vote for no deal extreme cliff dive brexit, and the leaflets handed out said we would get a deal.


No matter the formality of how we leave you would hold the same view. Either way we will be making changes and adding onto any deal we do make for years to come. It is the attitude of businesses and others unable to prepare for Brexit in any form that is a travesty. 
Aston martin have played it brilliantly and set money aside to deal with any changes on the way.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> From the Vote Leave campaign themselves.......
> 
> *'Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.'
> *
> This was their official position, they wanted a deal and to have one before we even began leaving, but somehow they are stating, and getting people who voted leave, to say they always wanted a no deal. The very thing that benefits JRM and the like. It's interesting, no?


The main reasons we couldn't have said discussions was because they were being held between pro-remain MP's and the EU so the only thing that would get drafted up is something like May's deal. Also all this uncertainty has been caused by 'rebel' groups and others that are unwilling to change their political view for the will of the people. Constantly asking for delays this, delays that, instead of getting their big boy/girl pants on and getting on with it


----------



## AlexPed2393

kimthecat said:


> I find it confusing . I'm sure they said that Bad Faith was a legal term .
> perhaps its just with insurance .
> I Binged and found this,
> 
> https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bad faith
> 1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a "bad faith" contract or "bad faith" offer.
> 
> See also: clean hands doctrine fraud good faith


Bad faith is very loose legally, I don't and won't trust it as a definitive line in the sand


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Not going in to what reasons had to vote. The thing is it was voted on and the majority chose leave, don't care how minor or major it was. *If we had voted to stay in I wouldn't have been ranting on about it nearly three years later how it was such a big injustice that we have to stay in the EU*


Had the vote been 52-48 the other way, a lot of people have, starting with Farage who specifically said such a result would be unfinished business.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> A question that gets a bit lost in all this kerfuffle is: Should there be some sort of breach of good faith and the UK can withdraw from the backstop arrangement as a result, what then happens in Ireland? Because by withdrawing we are pretty much inviting the EU to put up a border.


Sadly with this deal we cannot withdraw from the backstop, we can only ask to.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Had the vote been 52-48 the other way, a lot of people have, starting with Farage who specifically said such a result would be unfinished business.


Maybe so, but their views would not have the same media traction and political traction as those held by those who wanted remain


----------



## emmaviolet

DUP officially out now.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> ukcatdaddy joined in August 2018 when SWC was still a fully paid-up member. Are we to suppose he had two accounts for several months?


I don't. Without being offensive to SWC, the spelling seems a lot better for UCD.

Sorry SWC wherever you are x


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Maybe so, but their views would not have the same media traction and political traction as those held by those who wanted remain


That is maybe true. Farage might have been dismissed as a busted flush and faded into the background.

*sigh*

What a chance missed ...


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> A question that gets a bit lost in all this kerfuffle is: Should there be some sort of breach of good faith and the UK can withdraw from the backstop arrangement as a result, what then happens in Ireland? Because by withdrawing we are pretty much inviting the EU to put up a border.


Doesn't the new legal thingy make it unable to happen that there will be a border? Or am I being pulled in by the hyperbole?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

I wonder how long Theresa May's voice will last :Hilarious She sounds very croaky


----------



## 3dogs2cats

emmaviolet said:


> DUP officially out now.


Yes just seen this, so presumably with the ERG also intending to abstain the WA will be rejected once again and will be brought back for a 3rd time!


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> I don't.


Neither do I.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

emmaviolet said:


> DUP officially out now.


If they are out then they obviously support a border on the Island of Ireland if they are backing no deal.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> *Doesn't the new legal thingy make it unable to happen that there will be a border?* Or am I being pulled in by the hyperbole?


I don't think so.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Not going in to what reasons had to vote. The thing is it was voted on and the majority chose leave, don't care how minor or major it was. If we had voted to stay in I wouldn't have been ranting on about it nearly three years later how it was such a big injustice that we have to stay in the EU


Not the point I was making. I was referring to the fact that Our Glorious Leaders are intent on telling everyone 'This is what you voted for!', rather that deigning to ask the electorate 'Is this what you voted for?'



AlexPed2393 said:


> No matter the formality of how we leave you would hold the same view. Either way we will be making changes and adding onto any deal we do make for years to come. *It is the attitude of businesses and others unable to prepare for Brexit in any form that is a travesty*.
> Aston martin have played it brilliantly and set money aside to deal with any changes on the way.


So, how _do_ you prepare for an event when you have absolutely NO idea whether or not the UK will be in or out of things like the Customs Union, the Single Market etc., then? Especially when for the best part of the official preparation time you've been told over and over again not to worry as we'll get a great deal well before the deadline?

Aston Martin are a luxury car brand. Hardly a fair yardstick to hold up to your average business, really...


----------



## emmaviolet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105387147446636545
This is really interesting from Nick Boles.

If her deal doesn't pass tonight, I think this is fantastic, those small numbers in parliament cannot be allowed to hold everybody hostage, so if it fails they are going to fight for a softer brexit then these ERG minority keep pushing for.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I don't. Without being offensive to SWC, the spelling seems a lot better for UCD.
> 
> Sorry SWC wherever you are x


I hope he does come back . I wonder if any bans are ever lifted. ? I miss DT too.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> DUP officially out now.


]









I wonder how different it would be if May hadn't called the last election .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> *I hope he does come back *. I wonder if any bans are ever lifted. ? I miss DT too.


Me too. I'd love to see some discussions between SWC and UKCD !


----------



## emmaviolet

It's hard to tell if we'd be more or less screwed.
I'm going for more though.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Yeah. Though at least we have UKcatdaddy around, so its just like hes still here.


But I miss Stacey, the Cat...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> I can't see how anyone could have a problem with that. It merely demonstrates that he has the courage of his convictions. He deserves to gain from that surely?


If convictions paid ... @noushka05 will be the richest of all!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> But practically all of this thread has been about making money. Now someone who said we can be better off if we vote leave, is better off after we voted leave, thus proving that what he said is true, where before he was called liar, now he's being called immoral. Lol


We meant us. How many of us playing against pound on stock exchange etc?
If we meant a very narrow group of privileged Etonians ?
Not the common people or the nation.

People benefitted from pound crash!!!!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

The problem with MP's and the deal is MP's are letting their personal feelings get in the way to vote down the deal. I have watched parts of the debate and found they are also living in pre referendum days trying to re-run arguements made before the referendum. The British public spoke in June 2016 and the MP's are trying to block the results of the said referendum. What a farce.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

cheekyscrip said:


> People benefitted from pound crash!!!!


The pound hasn't crashed at all.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

As of 30 minutes ago the ERG have said they have not decided which way they are voting tonight yet.


----------



## noushka05

*:Hilarious*

*Still M.A.Y. (featuring Snoop Mogg) - Theresa May's Chronic Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

Despite being Tories I guess this is worth sharing.


----------



## Arnie83

This sums up exactly how I see the initial referendum, and the required one.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> The pound hasn't crashed at all.


I think @cheekyscrip is referring to the sharp fall immediately after the 2016 vote.


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder what May will do should she lose tonight?

Any bets on her flying back to Strasbourg within the next 24hours?
:Hilarious.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> I wonder what May will do should she lose tonight?
> 
> Any bets on her flying back to Strasbourg within the next 24hours?
> :Hilarious.


 She will no doubt put it to the house again!


----------



## AlexPed2393

If she loses tonight, surely there is an even stronger argument for her to resign?


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> I wonder what May will do should she lose tonight?
> 
> Any bets on her flying back to Strasbourg within the next 24hours?
> :Hilarious.


Or another 'tour' visiting poor Angela again.

If it was me, I'd tell her I was out of town and to not to bother dropping by again.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

AlexPed2393 said:


> If she loses tonight, surely there is an even stronger argument for her to resign?


And put who in charge?
Boris?
Savid Javid?
Hunt?
Raab?


----------



## Arnie83

Laura Kuenssberg reporting rumours that May, on losing tonight's vote, will announce she is requesting a short extension to A50.

Just passing that on!


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Please be warned if MP's reject the deal tonight and reject no deal tomorrow there is no guarantee on an extension either as all 27 remaining countries of the EU have to agree to an extension and then on what terms (the UK will not get to vote on the extention terms). The EU will screw the UK over with any extension.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Please be warned if MP's reject the deal tonight and reject no deal tomorrow there is no guarantee on an extention either as all 27 remaining countries of the EU have to 1 agree to an extention and then on what terms (the UK will not get to vote on the extention terms). *The EU will screw thw UK over with any extention*.


In what way?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> In what way?


Demand more money.
Demand terms on an extension.
Cut the UK out of any EU business eg not vote on anything whilst the UK is in the extension period and then introduce a swathe of new laws which will bind the UK to these new EU laws and demand that the UK remains in an never ending backstop.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Laura Kuenssberg reporting rumours that May, on losing tonight's vote, will announce she is requesting a short extension to A50.
> 
> Just passing that on!


Wouldn't surprise me, there won`t be time for her to put this back to the house before the 29th and she will surely be intending to bring it back as she has no other plan.


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Demand more money.
> Demand terms on an extension.
> Cut the UK out of any EU business eg not vote on anything whilst the UK is in the extension period and then introduce a swathe of new laws which will bind the UK to these new EU laws and demand that the UK remains in an never ending backstop.


Okay.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Laura Kuenssberg reporting rumours that May, on losing tonight's vote, will announce she is requesting a short extension to A50.
> 
> Just passing that on!


If she gets a *short *extension it maybe only a matter of weeks. It will be up to the EU 27 not the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> Wouldn't surprise me, there won`t be time for her to put this back to the house before the 29th and she will surely be intending to bring it back as she has no other plan.


That would be my bet. Ask for a bit more road so she can kick the can down it.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Okay.


Well didn't the EU indicate they could demand billions on any extension period over the last week?


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> If she gets a *short *extension it maybe only a matter of weeks. It will be up to the EU 27 not the UK.


Well yes. Unless she wants time for a referendum or a GE they have already said they would only agree an extension that stopped short of the European Parliament elections in May.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I find it confusing . I'm sure they said that Bad Faith was a legal term .
> perhaps its just with insurance .
> I Binged and found this,
> 
> https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bad faith
> 1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a "bad faith" contract or "bad faith" offer.
> 
> See also: clean hands doctrine fraud good faith


Maybe this article might clarify it a bit better for you.

https://www.ejiltalk.org/negotiating-brexit-in-the-shadow-of-the-law-of-treaties/

*Negotiating Brexit in the Shadow of the Law of Treaties*


----------



## ukcatdaddy

Arnie83 said:


> Well yes. Unless she wants time for a referendum or a GE they have already said they would only agree an extension that stopped short of the European Parliament elections in May.


Well an extension that short would only delay a no deal from happening. What could she possibly acheive in a matter of weeks (the delay period)?


----------



## ukcatdaddy

What made me laugh was Dominic Greive making it sound he was going to vote for the deal tonight and then saying he just couldn't do it. He is a remainer and has been dead against the deal since it first emerged.


----------



## ukcatdaddy

There are rumours emerging that TM may push for a third vote if she loses tonight. The numbers are indicating she may lose by 100 votes which is less than last time.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ukcatdaddy said:


> There are rumours emerging that TM may push for a third vote if she loses tonight. The numbers are indicating she may lose by 100 votes which is less than last time.


 She is sure to, she has no other plan and she doesn`t want no-deal so the only option she has is to keep bringing it back.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Laura Kuenssberg reporting rumours that May, on losing tonight's vote, will announce she is requesting a short extension to A50.
> 
> Just passing that on!


As much as I dislike her and her clearly biased coverage, I do follow her on Twitter lately as she always seems to know what May will be doing.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

ukcatdaddy said:


> The problem with MP's and the deal is MP's are letting their personal feelings get in the way to vote down the deal.


Do you think those MPs who would prefer we leave the EU without a deal should now vote in favour of Mays deal?


----------



## Arnie83

ukcatdaddy said:


> Well an extension that short would only delay a no deal from happening. What could she possibly acheive in a matter of weeks (the delay period)?


I think she might try to go back to the EU for more changes to the agreement. She's that mad.

Do you still want a No Deal?


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes = 242

Noes = 391

The Noes have it!

The PM profoundly regrets the result. PM speaking now about tomorrows vote


----------



## The Wild Bunch

See what happens tomorrow and Thursday then. Reckon we will be seeking an extension


----------



## emmaviolet

ukcatdaddy said:


> I can see the deal slipping across the line tonight and being agreed to.


So, so close.


----------



## Jesthar

emmaviolet said:


> So, so close.


Indeed, it would have been a shame if it was another _thumping_ defeat_..._ 

Don't think you're going to be getting a response from the quotee, though


----------



## Magyarmum

A free vote tomorrow whether or not to rule out a no deal exit!

£ has rallied slightly!

Strasbourg (or are they still in Brussels?) reaction - spokesman for Tusk - regrets outcome but EU has done all it can and solution lies in London


----------



## kimthecat

WTF . Terrible news . Holby City has been pushed off BBC 1 tonight.  :Hilarious


----------



## 3dogs2cats

emmaviolet said:


> So, so close.


Must admit I thought it would be closer, I thought it would be defeated but maybe by less than 100.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> WTF . Terrible news . Holby City has been pushed off BBC 1 tonight.  :Hilarious


 Oh no my mum will be fuming, she will be on the phone to me in a bit, bloody politics I rely on Holby and the soaps to keep her happy in the evenings


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

ukcatdaddy said:


> The problem with MP's and the deal is MP's are letting their personal feelings get in the way to vote down the deal. I have watched parts of the debate and found they are also living in pre referendum days trying to re-run arguements made before the referendum. The British public spoke in June 2016 and the MP's are trying to block the results of the said referendum. What a farce.


The public voted on unicorn Brexit, now we have reality.

Uniterally we can vote on unicorns in UK, now is time to accept that we cannot have No Deal and no recession.
One pound crash worth trillions so some JRM can make few millions is one too many.

Generally MPs understand that No Deal is a disaster they will be responsible for.
Some people might not realise the full impact of No Deal but BoE or International Trade Committee are pretty clear and so are business leaders.
FTSE100 can and was happily trading against the pound, they are global corporations. 
But look at FTSE250 and the British stock and shares!!!
Needs no expert and not a rocket science to see it clearly enough.


----------



## The Wild Bunch

If Mrs May goes crawling back to Europe to request an extension, how likely do you think it is that they get shirty and say a great big F**k off and leave us with a no deal situation and nowhere to go?


----------



## KittenKong

ukcatdaddy said:


> There are rumours emerging that TM may push for a third vote if she loses tonight. The numbers are indicating she may lose by 100 votes which is less than last time.


Funny old world isn't it. Brexit supporters frequently taunted the 48% calling for a PV as they didn't like the result of the 2016 referendum.

Why the hell is there not similar anger should May call a third vote on her deal because she didn't like the results from the January and today's vote?

The rejection of May's deal by parliament is considerably higher than the 52% leave vote in 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

The Wild Bunch said:


> If Mrs May goes crawling back to Europe to request an extension, how likely do you think it is that they get shirty and say a great big F**k off and leave us with a no deal situation and nowhere to go?


I wouldn't blame them if they did.

100% self-inflicted by incompetent UK politicians.


----------



## cheekyscrip

EU might as well push us into acceptance of the Deal if not happy with extending Brexit and we vote down No Deal.
But pound is up , slightly.

Bit worried about the Brexit of my new friend, could you please pm me what happened?


----------



## KittenKong

Glen Noble's satirical story 2024 seems to be becoming more truer by the day...

Glen Noble's 2024 chapter 2 ©Jan 2019:

The setting reverts back to the 27th March 2019, 48 hours before the UK is set to leave the European Union.

Having had her plan rejected by Parliament for the fifth time, Prime Minister Thelma Jay decides to implement her plan unilaterally, "For the national interest", with the Irish backstop differences to be, again re- negotiated between the twenty seven member states.

Brussels have repeatedly told her there are no changes to the plan they had all agreed the previous December, though Jay insists they have a duty to agree to her additional red lines on the eleventh hour at the last minute as she's a bloody difficult woman which she openly admitted to herself.

The UK newspapers and television media report on her efforts, suggesting she was bravely and alone fighting the EU bullies.

War time footage showing the bombing of Germany was utilised by the British Radio and Independent Television Corporation, known as _BRITish 1_'s _News at Six_ intersected with the footage of Prime Minister Jay in Brussels.

The latest alterations to her plan are immediately rejected by representatives of the 27 member states.

They hold an olive branch however, saying she could still cancel Brexit at the last minute.

"No", insisted Jay. " The British people voted to leave and to leave is what I will deliver".

She continued, "You must back my plan as we're a great support to you during the last war. You owe us that."

Then she lunged at them menacingly, "We British won't let you forget it. I will not let you reject my new position".

Each member state wondered why she continues to reflect back to the two world wars with Germany, seeing, as West Germany, has been a federal and peaceful state since the downfall of Adolf Hitler in 1945, and indeed one of the founder member states of the European Union.

By the time she received an answer from the German Chancellor Andrea Mason, Thelma Jay completely lost control.

She physically lunged at Andrea Mason to attack her shouting, " We won the war!, We won the war!".

Security were quickly sent in to restrain Thelma Jay with Jay shouting, "We will fight you on the beaches", then repeatedly yelling ," Heil Hitler" at the German Chancellor as she was dragged away by each arm which prevented her from delivering a Nazi salute.

She continued to be violently resistive, repeatedly screaming, "Heil Hitler" as she was dragged out of the European Parliament to the front door in direct view of the global press as the door opened. The global media and press could see her being physically pushed out of the entrance with the door slamming and locked to prevent her further access.

"They're bullies!", she yelled at the cameras. A multitude of cameras captured the image of Jay looking more deranged as per usual.

Despite this, Jay was convinced they would come around to her way of thinking at the last minute, insisting to the reporters they will do, "I am convinced of it", she said.

The spectacle of her outburst with the German Chancellor Andrea Mason was televised live throughout Europe and the rest of the world, much to the amusement of the public and politicians across the globe.

With the single exception of the _BRITish_ television media who abruptly cut the live broadcast when they realised something was wrong.

They justified the interruption by giving a Royal update on how the pregnant princess who was due to give birth over the next few days was doing, so the British public were not initially aware of Jay's outbursts and behaviour.

The incident was shared globally on social media however with comments suggesting this was the funniest thing they had seen since Basil Faulty and the Germans in the classic comedy, _Faulty Towers_, made in the mid 1970s.

Only, much of the British public were not amused. They accused the rest of Europe of putting Britain down by refusing to agree to her demands, even if they didn't agree to them themselves.

Some of the Brexit supporters went as far as to suggest it was an act of war to offend their Prime Minister in this fashion and by sharing the video on social media such as _Net Tube, Cheeper _and _Pagebook._

The next morning the British tabloids gave the headline, "I'll fight you on the beaches!" with an image of Jay dressed as Britannia giving a Churchill Victory V sign with Chancellor Andrea Mason photoshopped onto a 1940s German Nazi uniform.

The UK crashes out of the European Union without a deal on March 29th 2019 at 2359hours.

The ports of Dover were immediately gridlocked from the start of the A2 and M2 in the South East of London.

The army were brought in to patrol the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, causing chaos as people crossing the border were stopped and searched each time to get to work and back from the morning rush hour of March 30th 2019.

Many were extremely late for work as a result which no one envisaged would happen, certainly not overnight at least.

But the Brexit supporters, especially in Cities taunted Remainers on Social media, calling them names and accusing them of scaremongering and of course 'Remoaners' as the UK didn't actually collapse, nor run out of food and medicines over the first week.

Of course, the major cities would be the last to be affected, yet the more isolated rural communities began to see food and supply shortages rather quickly.

Many people also started losing their jobs, but news of workers needed to erect a permanent Irish Wall served as a very popular distraction by the media with Brexit supporters.

This distracted from the other huge job losses as British production moved overseas.

It confirmed to them that Brexit was creating jobs for British workers, as citizens from the EU were exempt from applying.

This resulted in a large poll boost for Thelma Jay.

However, with her flagship policy of ending of free movement, she received a notification from the EU to say her own freedom to travel anywhere within the European Economic Area area would be blocked indefinitely, following her recent behaviour in the European Union parliament in Brussels.

Although Thelma Jay took great personal pride in removing the rights to freedom of movement from her own citizens she was not prepared for the loss of her own, as she enjoyed traveling to Austria with her husband Wallace for their summer holidays.

This was some consolation for the passionate Remainers who lost their own freedom of movement rights and European citizenship to see Jay's policy backfire on herself.

In retaliation to her ban, with the settled status applications near completion, Thelma Jay fast-tracked her EU citizen deportation plan, expelling one million citizens over a three month period, picking them at random regardless of profession and length of service to the UK, hitting hospitals especially hard as consultants were forced to quit the UK as well as the manual workers.

Many UK citizens living within the EU were also deported back to the UK as a result, many of which chose to retire to the sun several years ago when it was perfectly legal to do so when it was a member of the European Economic Area. That option to remain in the EEA zone was re-jected by the British Prime Minister.

Those upset at having to return to Great Britain were split between blaming the EU for 'Punishing' them, mainly those who voted for Brexit in 2016, and Thelma Jay personally. The latter mainly being Remainers and those that were not allowed to participate in the referendum through the Government conveniently backtracking on their 2015 Manifesto pledge to allow British born people the right to vote if living outside for fifteen years or more.

The British public overall loved it however, with British jobs created for British workers is what most of them voted for.

_The Wun, _Britain's best selling newspaper instructed their readers to target any drivers where number plates still carried the EU/GB badge. They provided free _The Wun_ badged union stickers in the paper to conceal the EU one.

_The Wun_ argued those who refused to display their patriotic stickers hated Britain and were the Enemies of the people. They suggested gentle persuasion at first before using force where necessary.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> Oh no my mum will be fuming, she will be on the phone to me in a bit, bloody politics I rely on Holby and the soaps to keep her happy in the evenings


 Its all Brexit's fault. Get your mum to join PF and we can chat in the Soap Thread :Smuggrin


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Its all Brexit's fault. Get your mum to join PF and we can chat in the Soap Thread :Smuggrin


Brexit has more twists, improbable plots andevil characters than any British soap and might run longer than Corrie...

We really showed EU how well we take control!!!

How many more times Parliament will vote on that deal?

But no second referendum!!!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Its all Brexit's fault. Get your mum to join PF and we can chat in the Soap Thread :Smuggrin


 Well that would be one way to stop her asking me "Is so and so dead?" and various other soap plot questions I haven't got a hope of answering even after speed reading her beloved Inside Soap!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit has more twists, improbable plots andevil characters than any British soap and might run longer than Corrie...
> 
> We really showed EU how well we take control!!!
> 
> How many more times Parliament will vote on that deal?
> 
> But no second referendum!!!


 Oh heck Cheeky 50 odd years of The Brexit Soap! There used to be an America show called Soap that started every week with a run down on the overly complicated plot before asking viewers if they were confused. I reckon Brexit has a far more confusing plot than even that!


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs May sends the cat to make the latest Brexit statement outside No 10.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Mrs May sends the cat to make the latest Brexit statement outside No 10.


Very sensible replacement. Send him to Brussels, at least might come with a mouse.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Mrs May sends the cat to make the latest Brexit statement outside No 10.


I'd have more faith in Frank Spencer as PM as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

What we achieved so far is that mutual respect between EU and UK took a good bashing and the trust is very low.

We already lost something very valuable: our EU allies - dangerous for Gibraltar, Falklands etc... how do you think UN will decide?

We are already isolated - very weak position in any negotiations indeed.

We lost much more than car industry, ironically Sunderland voted Leave, maybe they can ask ERG to invest their new fortunes there?

I think EU might be happy to see us out just not to see May anymore.

She must have been repeating herself in Brussels till she lost her voice...

Brexit Ground Hog Day...


----------



## Elles

Apart from Rees-mogg and Ben Bradshaw, most of south-west England voted in favour of TM’s deal.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Apart from Rees-mogg and Ben Bradshaw, most of south-west England voted in favour of TM's deal.


Does it say how each MP voted ? That would be interesting to know.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Does it say how each MP voted ? That would be interesting to know.


Here you go .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ow-did-your-mp-vote-in-the-march-brexit-votes

*How did my MP vote on May's Brexit deal?*


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Do neither of you think that other members of parliament will make massive swathes of money if there is a deal? Whatever happens SOMEONE will be making millions of pounds from the outcome. How JRM organises his personal finances and investments shouldn't be open for discussion.
> 
> All people who have a slight understanding of investments will be putting money in the correct places as we speak/type to protect their portfolios and keep profits coming in. Investments of this magnitude shouldn't really be based around morals, they should be done over how much money is to be made. Whether you like it or not, someone is making money JRM or not





Elles said:


> If he can make money out of Brexit, so can other investors and the government. Maybe they should listen to his experts, if making money is their interest.


Good advice 

_"When you hear or read a politician, a pundit or a journalist, the first and most important question you should ask yourself is this*: Is he or she seeking to advance their own interests (and those of funders, friends and faction), or seeking to advance everyone's interest?"*_ *- George Monbiot.*
*

...............................*


----------



## noushka05

Huge respect for Vote Leaves Oliver Norgrove for his honesty.

_I'm now at the stage where I think if we end up not leaving it'll be a blessing. Let's face it, my side just doesn't deserve it.

I'm no Remainer, I still dislike the EU and consider it to be undemocratic from top to bottom. I won't campaign for Remain. But I'm sick of being let down and embarrassed by all of this.

Also I've become very frustrated with myself for the lack of consideration I showed the Northern Ireland issue a few years ago. (More on this at a later date, but I think it's actually symptomatic of something much wider than Brexit)

So, I can no longer commit publicly to being a Brexiteer. I'll follow the issue and give my 2 cents, to anybody who might care about my opinion, where I can. But the pursuit for something I now consider unworkable is pointless. I refuse to be driven into madness by it all.

The UK had to, at some point, face up to this. But its political system just couldn't cope. We fought the referendum like a general election, we triggered A50 without a plan, we never understood how the EU operated nor that Brexit wasn't a standard negotiation.

It's been self-deception on an almighty scale. At one point I thought, naively, that I could stand as a better example for the Leave side, but I now realise that it's hopeless. I'm never asked for input, the media cares only for those on the extreme. A recipe for disaster._

I_'m quite furious tonight. With general events and with myself. I might open a bottle._
_

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## noushka05

I'm with this guy :Smuggrin

*Damon Evans:*

What should happen next:

• Quietly revoke Article 50 
• Tell Brexiters we left with no deal 
• Send them blue passport covers 
• Give them special long queues at airports/ports 
• Charge them for roaming calls/data 
• Give them food and medicine ration books 
• Get on with life.

....


----------



## Happy Paws2

The Wild Bunch said:


> If Mrs May goes crawling back to Europe to request an extension, how likely do you think it is that they get shirty and say a great big F**k off and leave us with a no deal situation and nowhere to go?


I wouldn't blame them if they did she had nearly three years to sort it out and shes made a real hash of it, why should they help us now.



kimthecat said:


> Mrs May sends the cat to make the latest Brexit statement outside No 10.


I'd vote for him, he couldn't do any worse, in fact he'd make a better job of it.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> A free vote tomorrow whether or not to rule out a no deal exit!
> don


Even if every single MP voted to reject a no deal exit , it does not rule out a no deal. The vote doesn't deliver any actual legislation to stop us crashing out. So much for Parliament taking back control, hey?

The only chance we have of averting catastrophe is an extension or better still just revoke Article 50.

.

.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Funny old world isn't it. Brexit supporters frequently taunted the 48% calling for a PV as they didn't like the result of the 2016 referendum.
> 
> Why the hell is there not similar anger should May call a third vote on her deal because she didn't like the results from the January and today's vote?
> 
> The rejection of May's deal by parliament is considerably higher than the 52% leave vote in 2016.


I think everyone is of the same frame of mind in regards to TM constantly asking for her deal to be voted in, it's pointless what she is doing.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Even if every single MP voted to reject a no deal exit , it does not rule out a no deal. The vote doesn't deliver any actual legislation to stop us crashing out. So much for Parliament taking back control, hey?
> 
> The only chance we have of averting catastrophe is an extension or better still just revoke Article 50.
> 
> .
> 
> .


What would be achieved by an extension though? TM has achieved nothing since 2016 so why should 3 more months make it any better. Europe aren't moving from their demands, we aren't moving from ours, so it seems that we either take the deal (which MP's aren't willing to do) or go out with no deal (which MP's aren't willing to do)

So yeh.... bit of an odd one this


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Even if every single MP voted to reject a no deal exit , it does not rule out a no deal. The vote doesn't deliver any actual legislation to stop us crashing out. So much for Parliament taking back control, hey?
> 
> The only chance we have of averting catastrophe is an extension or better still just revoke Article 50.
> .


May's motion was carefully worded to rule out No Deal ONLY on 29th March. At any time after that the motion specifically left it firmly on the table.

An amendment has been proposed by Grieve & co - the grown-ups - that would rule it out full stop.

Here's hoping.


----------



## kimthecat

BBC interviewing ex pats in Spain and France. Spain have gone out of their way to reassure them and give them info and France hasn;t. One older lady in a small French village thinks she will have to Quarantine her dog if she comes back to the UK which isn't correct .


----------



## Elles

What does ‘no deal’ even mean?


----------



## The Wild Bunch

Elles said:


> What does 'no deal' even mean?


I don't think anybody knows


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> What would be achieved by an extension though? TM has achieved nothing since 2016 so why should 3 more months make it any better. Europe aren't moving from their demands, we aren't moving from ours, so it seems that we either take the deal (which MP's aren't willing to do) or go out with no deal (which MP's aren't willing to do)
> 
> So yeh.... bit of an odd one this


The government have blown it, they have reduced our country to a global laughing stock, I can't see the EU engaging in any more 'negotiations' with them. The tory party are still negotiating with themselves, its pathetic. An extension could give us time to plan for 2nd referendum, or except to remaining in the customs union maybe?.

Non of this is the EUs fault. The tories. as usual, are putting their party before our country. This is why we had a referendum in the first place because Cameron wanted to placate the extreme right wing of his party. If we crash out with no dead its thanks to a tiny minority of right wing extremists. Mogg & the ERG. And if we do, democracy in this country is dead.



Arnie83 said:


> May's motion was carefully worded to rule out No Deal ONLY on 29th March. At any time after that the motion specifically left it firmly on the table.
> 
> An amendment has been proposed by Grieve & co - the grown-ups - that would rule it out full stop.
> 
> Here's hoping.


I didn't know this about Grieves amendment. Thank you for giving me hope Arnie x



Elles said:


> What does 'no deal' even mean?





The Wild Bunch said:


> I don't think anybody knows


This might help.

( No deal is a disaster capitalists dream. This is why Mogg, Farage et al have been desperately trying to sell it to the public, because these crooks & the people they represent stand to make a fortune out of our countrys demise)


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> BBC interviewing ex pats in Spain and France. Spain have gone out of their way to reassure them and give them info and France hasn;t. One older lady in a small French village thinks she will have to Quarantine her dog if she comes back to the UK which isn't correct .


The Hungarian Government have a Brexit Information website which states that UK citizens who already have their Resident Permits have no problems and UK citizens applying for their permits will be given preferential treatment.

Just because you are no longer an EU citizen doesn't mean your dogs won't be. My two have Hungarian EU Pet Passports so can travel anywhere in the EU as they've always done. I'm off to the Czech Republic at the beginning of May and will use my Hungarian ID instead of my British Passport. Normally though, you don't need to show any papers if you're travelling in the EU.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> The
> Just because you are no longer an EU citizen doesn't mean your dogs won't be. My two have Hungarian EU Pet Passports so can travel anywhere in the EU as they've always done. I'm off to the Czech Republic at the beginning of May and will use my Hungarian ID instead of my British Passport. Normally though, you don't need to show any papers if you're travelling in the EU.


Ahh the benefits of being in the EU, hey? Pets entering & leaving the UK are likely to lose those benefits soon.

.


----------



## noushka05

God help us. https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla

Carole Cadwalladr: _Last week arron_banks & andy wigmore went to Veneto, the heartland of Italy's Lega Nord. Today, the plan is revealed. 
The fascists have agreed to help Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50.

We're f*****._

.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> God help us.
> 
> Carole Cadwalladr: _Last week arron_banks & andy wigmore went to Veneto, the heartland of Italy's Lega Nord. Today, the plan is revealed.
> The fascists have agreed to help Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50.
> 
> We're f*****._


I sincerely hope this isn't true. It isn't Italy's place to force the UK out of the EU through support for a minority group of extreme right wing populists.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I sincerely hope this isn't true. It isn't Italy's place to force the UK out of the EU through support for a minority group of extreme right wing populists.


Check out Carole Cadwalladrs twitter feed Arnie. Terrifying. https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla


----------



## Elles

If the Eu don’t agree to an extension, our government will probably vote to revoke article 50.

We can’t leave with a no deal as it was previously, as some issues have already been agreed upon.


----------



## noushka05

Looks like the only hope now of averting catastrophe is the Government revoke Article 50. And I really can't see that happening.

*Carole Cadwalladr*‏:

_It's a done deal. Banks & Farage have sewn up Italy. Here's @patrickwintour pointing out same re Poland. Hungary's a no brainer. 
We will not got extension to article 50. MPs need to realise that today. It's a fantasy. And just 16 days till we crash out

P*atrick Wintour*‏:

Number of Tory MPs went to see members of Polish governing party last week in Warsaw - broadly on same errand, namely to block Article 50 extension

.............................................................

_


----------



## Arnie83

The Telegraph 'Opinion'

*An extension would be a national humiliation. The UK must leave the EU on time.*

How very British. Never mind the self-harm it would involve, we'll have to leave. Otherwise what would the neighbours think?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> If the Eu don't agree to an extension, our government will probably vote to revoke article 50.


One can only hope, given that whichever way you voted, it's the only sensible option right now.

We simply can't prepare for a No Deal scenario in two weeks flat - and (for the ardent Brexiteers) that's not pessimism, negativity or the lack of a can-do spirit, it's just plain logistics and common sense. We don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the resources, and (given the Gov spent the best part of the two years reassuring everyone there would be a fabulous deal) most of the UK doesn't have a plan either.

Far better to revoke and start again (THIS time working out WHAT you're going to do BEFORE you start the clock ticking) than simultaneously shoot yourself in the foot and punch yourself in the groin for good measure...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> One can only hope, given that whichever way you voted, it's the only sensible option right now.
> 
> We simply can't prepare for a No Deal scenario in two weeks flat - and (for the ardent Brexiteers) that's not pessimism, negativity or the lack of a can-do spirit, it's just plain logistics and common sense. We don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the resources, and (given the Gov spent the best part of the two years reassuring everyone there would be a fabulous deal) most of the UK doesn't have a plan either.
> 
> Far better to revoke and start again (THIS time working out WHAT you're going to do BEFORE you start the clock ticking) than simultaneously shoot yourself in the foot and punch yourself in the groin for good measure...


Maybe you should read this about the possible problems of a second referendum and withdrawal of Article 50

https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-second-brexit-referendum-what-makes-you-think-they-will-have-you-back/

*A Second Brexit Referendum - What Makes You Think They Will Have You Back?*


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


>


Hey, look at that,a unicorn in politics....


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I sincerely hope this isn't true. It isn't Italy's place to force the UK out of the EU through support for a minority group of extreme right wing populists.


https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blo...ld-the-eu27-agree-to-an-article-50-extension/

*Under which conditions would the EU27 agree to an Article 50 extension?*


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> Hey, look at that,a unicorn in politics....


This is what the brexit unicorn turned out to be


----------



## noushka05

No wonder the world thinks we've gone stark raving mad. This is all self inflicted.

CB*I* chief Carolyn Fairbairn:

"What we are hearing is the biggest change in terms of trade this country has faced since the mid-19th century being imposed on this country 
with no consultation with business, no time to prepare."

"This is a sledgehammer for our economy."

https://www.ft.com/content/d05189c8-455b-11e9-a965-23d669740bfb


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I wonder if any bans are ever lifted.


He had already decided he'd had enough before his ban, if you recall.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Maybe you should read this about the possible problems of a second referendum and withdrawal of Article 50
> 
> https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-second-brexit-referendum-what-makes-you-think-they-will-have-you-back/
> 
> *A Second Brexit Referendum - What Makes You Think They Will Have You Back?*


I think that piece pre-dates the ruling of the ECJ that the UK can unilaterally revoke A50 and that our membership would thereafter continue exactly as it was before.


----------



## Magyarmum

_*THE DAILY MASH*_

*I'm not even dipping a toe in that f**king mess, says Queen*
13th March 2019








*THE Queen has responded to Brexiter calls to dissolve parliament by clarifying she is going nowhere near that shitstorm. *

The monarch, who technically has the right to overrule parliament's decision and appoint a new government, has confirmed that she does not intend to do so within the next million years.

She continued: "I've kept schtum for 67 years, and now's the moment you want me to step in? Uh-uh. No bloody way.

"You choose the government. I appoint a government. The government does the job. I don't see any clauses demanding I fix everyone else's cock-ups.

"I didn't make a fuss when my whole empire, which I quite liked by the way, was frittered away. I didn't start throwing the toys about when we became lapdogs for America. I kept quiet when you sold my yacht.

"So I'm going to sit on my throne and watch with interest as you try and dig yourselves out of this hole. Three words: Not. My. Problem. End of."

She added: "Do you want Charles in charge? Yeah. Exactly."


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I think that piece pre-dates the ruling of the ECJ that the UK can unilaterally revoke A50 and that our membership would thereafter continue exactly as it was before.


You're quite right, thank you for reminding me. I must admit I'd forgotten about the ECJ ruling.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/revoking-article-50-after-the-ecjs-ruling/

*Revoking Article 50 after the ECJ's ruling*


----------



## Satori

Elles said:


> If the Eu don't agree to an extension, our government will probably vote to revoke article 50.
> 
> We can't leave with a no deal as it was previously, as some issues have already been agreed upon.


If the EU don't agree to an extension or, more likely, impose unacceptable conditions then no-deal remains the default regardless of today's votes. Today is just theatre.

However, far more likely is that May will motion her current withdrawal agreement for a third time. I reckon she'd win vs no-deal.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Maybe you should read this about the possible problems of a second referendum and withdrawal of Article 50
> 
> https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-second-brexit-referendum-what-makes-you-think-they-will-have-you-back/
> 
> *A Second Brexit Referendum - What Makes You Think They Will Have You Back?*


The UK can withdraw Article 50 unilaterally without the consent of the other 27 member states, at least until 29/03/19.

I reckon if the government were committed to another referendum the EU would grant an extension. If May wanted one to attempt further negotiations and votes for her deal I hope they tell her to **** off.

Junker also needs to keep his word that he will not permit further talks with May on the matter.

Apparently, May still believes in her deal so I wouldn't put it past her to attempt another vote on it.


----------



## noushka05

Wonder if its the same report James Melville was watching?


kimthecat said:


> BBC interviewing ex pats in Spain and France. Spain have gone out of their way to reassure them and give them info and France hasn;t. One older lady in a small French village thinks she will have to Quarantine her dog if she comes back to the UK which isn't correct .


Couldn't make it up could you? This is what English exceptionalism looks like! If there's any justice _they_ will be sent packing!

*James Melville:*
_Th_i_s morning I watched a bunch of "expats" in an English themed pub in Benidorm being interviewed about Brexit. Everyone wanted a no deal Brexit because
of their concerns about immigration. A Venn Diagram of stupidity in one place.

..........................................._


----------



## Happy Paws2

I have a lot of respect for our farmers, but I'm sick to death of them whinging about how much they are going loss, as most of them voted to leave, if they are going to struggle it's their own fault.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Wonder if its the same report James Melville was watching?
> 
> Couldn't make it up could you? This is what English exceptionalism looks like! If there's any justice _they_ will be sent packing!
> 
> *James Melville:*
> _Th_i_s morning I watched a bunch of "expats" in an English themed pub in Benidorm being interviewed about Brexit. Everyone wanted a no deal Brexit because
> of their concerns about immigration. A Venn Diagram of stupidity in one place.
> 
> ..........................................._


I'd hardly call a bunch of "expats" sitting in a pub in Benidorm, aka "Little Britain in the Sun" as being representative of the 1.3 million UK citizens living in all 27 EU countries.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> If the EU don't agree to an extension or, more likely, impose unacceptable conditions then no-deal remains the default regardless of today's votes. Today is just theatre.
> 
> However, far more likely is that May will motion her current withdrawal agreement for a third time. I reckon she'd win vs no-deal.


What ever happens now it's the PMs fault, I don't expect the EU to help her, she's just messed them around for over the last two years why should they throw her an olive branch.


----------



## kimthecat

Kafkaesque springs to mind.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...europe-eu-mps?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other#comments


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> What ever happens now it's the PMs fault, I don't expect the EU to help her, she's just messed them around for over the last two years why should they throw her an olive branch.


I hope they don't. I would like to see the request for an extension rejected.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> I hope they don't. I would like to see the request for an extension rejected.


Agreed.

I was pleasantly surprised, just how many MPs are willing for the no deal scenario. I expected tonights vote to be even more one sided than yesterday


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just wish they'd scrap article 50 all together.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I wish they scrapped May altogether.

So we can vote for May Deal ever and ever?
So giving the people the chance to express their will again is against the will of the people?

Did people express the will that they wish to have no say and MPs elected by the people should have no say either?
The leader of the House is a May alter ego not at all the voice of the House?


Conservatives were given the free vote to have been whipped just before the vote?

What party leader does THAT???

She has no respect for even her own!!!9

To be forced to vote for No Deal that will destroy our economy unless we accept May Deal?


As to Corbyn... I would have voted for Darth Vader if he could replace May ...

Bercow is superb as a Speaker.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I just wish they'd scrap article 50 all together.


So far the best option...
Pity about the lost investment and the pound...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> I'd hardly call a bunch of "expats" sitting in a pub in Benidorm, aka "Little Britain in the Sun" as being representative of the 1.3 million UK citizens living in all 27 EU countries.


You look fabulous without a hat and a bit of suntan dahlin


----------



## Elles

I think it’s dreadful how politicians are completely ignoring what their constituents voted for. It doesn’t matter which way they voted, remain or leave, their MPs are doing what they want. It’s clear that whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's clear that whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


But the whole _point_ of a referendum, politically speaking, isn't to seek the opinion of the masses, but rather to be able to blame the masses for whatever should happen afterwards once the politicians have exploited it for their own ends...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I think it's dreadful how politicians are completely ignoring what their constituents voted for. It doesn't matter which way they voted, remain or leave, their MPs are doing what they want. It's clear that whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


MPs realise how damaging No Deal is and referendum was NOT about no Deal - how many of Leave voters want that?
How many want to leave Customs Union- the worst part of Brexit possibly?

Why it is wrong to give the people the will again?

So no longer Project Fear but the obvious recession after No Deal?
Blame May who looks now quite insane for her red lines!!!
If half of the country wants to stay you need softer opinions not the hardest most dangerous one.

Also maybe now those who will lose their jobs and now know it have rights to speak?
We were lied we will be better off, so why carry on with this ?
To make our country weaker??

What a victory!!!!

Blame May and her red lines, her way or no way!
So Parliament should have no say???

Who on Earth thinks leaving Customs Union is sensible????


----------



## KittenKong

I think May will unilaterally implement her deal regardless of what Parliament says because 1). She can't be touched until December at least and 2). Should she do this she won't be able back out of it because Parliament doesn't like it.


----------



## Satori

Elles said:


> I think it's dreadful how politicians are completely ignoring what their constituents voted for. It doesn't matter which way they voted, remain or leave, their MPs are doing what they want. It's clear that whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


Yes. I am genuinely shocked. Even by the poor standard of UK politicians this is appalling behaviour. Most of them have ripped up the manifesto upon which they stood and thus are receiving their pay fraudulently.

Where is Guy Fawkes when his country needs him?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I think May will unilaterally implement her deal regardless of what Parliament says because 1). She can't be touched until December at least and 2). Should she do this she won't be able back out of it because Parliament doesn't like it.


We can't vote again, yet she's going to put her deal up for a third vote. What is wrong with the woman a rule for her and no one else gets a chance. Oh I really hate this woman.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I've said this once, twice and I'm saying it again.....
Thatcher nearly ruined the country and when they elected Mayas leader of the tories I said Oh NO not a another women, well I think I was right we've had two of them, both wreaking the country.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think it's dreadful how politicians are completely ignoring what their constituents voted for. It doesn't matter which way they voted, remain or leave, their MPs are doing what they want. It's clear that whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


So far, the majority of MPs are trying to agree the best way to Leave. It has been entirely their job to reach one definition from all those in the heads of the Leave voters. Bearing in mind that many of those would have been quite contradictory, it hasn't been an easy job.

It hasn't been helped by May's approach, trying to be Thatcher II and riding roughshod over the Parliamentary sovereignty that is apparently so precious, but I'm not at all surprised that they can't reach a conclusion.

One thing is very sure indeed: there was not a majority of voters in 2016 who wanted to leave the EU with no deal in place at all. So what is Parliament supposed to do?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> whatever we vote on in a referendum it will make no difference.


 As per my previous post: "If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it." 
(Allegedly) a quote from Mark Twain.


----------



## Magyarmum

A very balanced interview on Euronews with MEP Philippe Lamberts.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> As per my previous post: "If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it."
> (Allegedly) a quote from Mark Twain.


But ...

Same response as to @Elles 's post.

As an example: I've heard a lot of people say that all 'we' wanted was the Common Market, without all the political stuff. I don't think it's an unfair leap of the imagination, therefore, to say that a lot of Leave voters would want to stay in the Single Market ('the exact same benefits' assurances might even have swayed them). Others, like those who reflect the views of the ERG, wanted nothing to do with the EU at all and therefore reject being part of the Single market.

Both these groups voted leave for their own good reasons, but neither would represent anything like a majority of the voters, let alone this almost mythical 'Will of the People'.

How, then, is Parliament supposed to judge what the country wants?

(I know of one very logical way, but apparently asking the country to choose between actual options is a betrayal!)


----------



## Elles

If you don’t think all this is trying to scupper brexit under the guise of doing what’s best for the people, you have less sense than I gave you credit for.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If you don't think all this is trying to scupper brexit under the guise of doing what's best for the people, you have less sense than I gave you credit for.


I have no doubt at all that a number of MPs are actively working towards changing the overall result - except that would only be by decision of the people; Parliament will certainly not do it unilaterally - not least because they've said so.

It doesn't change my point about the impossible task they have of trying to find a definition of 'Leave' that would coincide with that of anything like a majority of Leave voters. As shown by the reaction to May's deal; it's bound to be quite acceptable to some Leave voters because it's what they wanted all along, but it's anathema to many others whose ideas were and are very different.

That's why it was so stupid to put a simple binary question to a referendum when the answer is so multi-faceted.


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> Yes. I am genuinely shocked. Even by the poor standard of UK politicians this is appalling behaviour. *Most of them have ripped up the manifesto upon which they stood *and thus are receiving their pay fraudulently.
> 
> Where is Guy Fawkes when his country needs him?


And how is that different from any General Election, except that with a General Election we get another go every few years?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> I think May will unilaterally implement her deal regardless of what Parliament says because 1). She can't be touched until December at least and 2). Should she do this she won't be able back out of it because Parliament doesn't like it.


She will probably get it through at next attempt or possibly at the 4th attempt! The ERG are getting jittery about the idea of a long extension or even losing Brexit altogether and the DUP will eventually be persuaded. May cannot lead the party into the next election so I expect they will swallow her deal down then try and get one of their own `on the throne` to take it through the next stage.


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> And how is that different from any General Election, except that with a General Election we get another go every few years?


Plus the fact that the Tories' manifesto promises saw them lose their Parliamentary majority, which is hardly a ringing endorsement of their plans.


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> She will probably get it through at next attempt or possibly at the 4th attempt! The ERG are getting jittery about the idea of a long extension or even losing Brexit altogether and the DUP will eventually be persuaded. May cannot lead the party into the next election so I expect they will swallow her deal down then try and get one of their own `on the throne` to take it through the next stage.


That is currently my bet, too. The content of the political declaration will then be drastically altered and we'll end up watching Parliament arguing over Deal or No Deal in 2 years time!


----------



## JANICE199

*Thoughts on this anyone? *
*https://news.sky.com/story/an-ancient-rule-means-bercow-could-take-drastic-action-on-brexit-11664555*


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *Thoughts on this anyone? *
> *https://news.sky.com/story/an-ancient-rule-means-bercow-could-take-drastic-action-on-brexit-11664555*


Bercow has chosen a motion for debate today which will disallow a third 'meaningful' vote, so he doesn't have to take that 'drastic' action. I'm not sure that he would have done so but it's fortunately moot now!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> I said Oh NO not a another women,


I thought nothing of the fact they voted in a female leader, tho' I did wonder how a remainer got elected to do a leaver's job (male or female). Maybe at the time she seemed the best of a crappy bunch?


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*This is what happens whenever posh twats are in charge, say experts*
12th December 2018









*A HISTORIAN has confirmed that Britain ends up in a ****ing mess whenever we make the mistake of putting posh people in charge. *

Denys Finch Hatton, professor of history at Christchurch College, Oxford, pointed to the Suez crisis, the First World War, the English Reformation and basically most of the last 1,500 years as an example of his point.

He continued: "We have a great tradition in this country of inventors, of artists, of writers, of mathematicians, of real, solid achievement. And then there are the posh twats.

"They've led this country into war after war, into schisms with churches, into Black Deaths and Corn Laws and pointless Grail quests, killing tens of thousands of us every time.

"We'd hoped those days were over but then Blair crept in with his Damon Albarn accent, then we went full Eton and guess what, the country's completely ****ed again in no time at all.

"Mark my words, this won't be over until half a generation's massacred and we all vow 'never again' until the next time we let the chinless ****ers get their hands on the keys."

Voter Roy Hobbs, from Trowbridge, said: "Boris Johnson is funny."


----------



## KittenKong

I guess we should be grateful that Corbyn hasn't whipped his MPs into voting against a PV motion.

Why can't we be liberated from a Parliament full of idiots?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I thought nothing of the fact they voted in a female leader, tho' I did wonder how a remainer got elected to do a leaver's job (male or female). Maybe at the time she seemed the best of a crappy bunch?


May, like Corbyn for that matter, had a funny way of being 'remainers' in 2016.

We only have their word which way they voted in 2016.

I knew as soon as May became PM she would make her immigrant targets her number one priority.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> May, like Corbyn for that matter, had a funny way of being 'remainers' in 2016.


 True: at least Call Me Dave cleared off.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine




----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I'd hardly call a bunch of "expats" sitting in a pub in Benidorm, aka "Little Britain in the Sun" as being representative of the 1.3 million UK citizens living in all 27 EU countries.


I sincerely hope they are not representative of the 1.3 million, but embarrassingly some Brits do have a superiority complex, even some who have CHOOSEN to live in another country. British nationalism & exceptionalism will be the downfall of this country. Make britain great again? I don't think so.

t











rona said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I was pleasantly surprised, just how many MPs are willing for the no deal scenario. I expected tonights vote to be even more one sided than yesterday


MPs are supposed to do whats best for our country, not disaster capitalists & Putin. I can't understand how anyone could be pleased so many MPs support this >>>

_In case you were wondering how the UK is doing, the Prime Minister and 307 other MPs voted for food and medicine shortages, to endanger lives,
strangle supply chains & threaten peace in Northern Ireland. Nearly half of Parliament voted to declare economic sanctions on ourselves._

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I guess we should be grateful that Corbyn hasn't whipped his MPs into voting against a PV motion.
> 
> Why can't we be liberated from a Parliament full of idiots?
> View attachment 396862


A few hours ago Alastair Campbell said this KK. Even he's saying now isnt the time for a PV & hes been pushing hard for one.

*Alastair PEOPLE'S VOTE :*
Wrong to press @peoplesvote_uk amendment today when the issue is extension. I think wrong time and I fear the wrong reasons. Any doubts about that confirmed by @CarolineFlintMP support. PV is possible solution to current crisis not option within it. More PV opportunities ahead


----------



## cheekyscrip

Labour doesn’t want second referendum- whipped again by Corbyn?
That takes referendum of the table?
:Banghead
No one wants the People Will???
So much for Labour...


So people were allowed to vote for something they had only in their head and slogans and lies, yet now that they might actually know what Brexit means and definitely not a prosperity for Britain- none of main parties want them to decide?


That is a betrayal of the Will of The People.

:Banghead


----------



## noushka05

No deal is playing straight into Trump & Putins hands.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Labour doesn't want second referendum- whipped again by Corbyn?
> That takes referendum of the table?
> 
> No one wants the People Will???
> So much for Labour...


Cheeky, Labour tabled an amendment for a peoples vote, it was voted down. (by the likes of Anna Soubry).


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Cheeky, Labour tabled an amendment for a peoples vote, it was voted down. (by the likes of Anna Soubry).


Why not now? Some consistency will be nice...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Why not now? Some consistency will be nice...


If they didn't get the numbers then, I doubt they'll get them now. Look how close the no deal vote was?


----------



## noushka05

Anyone else with Dom Joly? This is the best deal going lol

_enough is enough- #brexit is a f***ing national embarrassment. We are the laughing stock of the world. 
Let's just forget all about it and we promise to never mention it and pretend this shitstorm never happened? 
Deal?

.................................................................._


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> If they didn't get the numbers then, I doubt they'll get them now. Look how close the no deal vote was?


So then to abstain makes it better?


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> So then to abstain makes it better?


Do you mean MPs who abstained against the Corbyn amendment for a PV? Sorry for being dense:Bag


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> So then to abstain makes it better?


Oh, I know what you mean now. You mean a lot of labour MPs are abstaining right now on the PV?. Apparently Labour are following advise from Peoples Vote not to push for 2nd referendum tonight. What that Alastair Campbell tweet was about. https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk


----------



## kimthecat

All these amendments. A resounding No to another referendum. Corbyn wants a GE and he said that if they won he would consider another Referendum yet Labour arent for it.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> A few hours ago Alastair Campbell said this KK. Even he's saying now isnt the time for a PV & hes been pushing hard for one.
> 
> *Alastair PEOPLE'S VOTE :*
> Wrong to press @peoplesvote_uk amendment today when the issue is extension. I think wrong time and I fear the wrong reasons. Any doubts about that confirmed by @CarolineFlintMP support. PV is possible solution to current crisis not option within it. More PV opportunities ahead


Yes indeed, I later learned this.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So Parliament lost by two voters, wonder who?
Now we will have May Deal through.

Great, just great.

Happy now ?
Rot!!!:Banghead

Bloody cowards!!!!
May scared them to obedience,
Corbyn did the same.

Courage lasted two days?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Why not now? Some consistency will be nice...


I'm as frustrated as you are, but Noushka is right. Even had Corbyn whipped his MPs into backing a PV today it still would have been defeated.

In view of the circumstances I'd rather see A50 rescinded and those who lied brought to justice for misconduct in public office in an ideal world.

I'll be taking part in the London demo on March 23rd.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now May is back in control and will bully us to her Deal , she cares nothing but is obsessed to get it through.

Hope that makes JRM and the rest happy, bunting on?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## The Wild Bunch

Voted for a delay... surprise surprise. See what Europe say now


----------



## Magyarmum

The Wild Bunch said:


> Voted for a delay... surprise surprise. See what Europe say now


Did you really expect anything different?


----------



## Mrs.Zee

What the rest of Europe thinks is that leavers were promised something that could never delivered, as it was never supposed to take place. So May was set off to deliver something that will be harmful for 99% of British, but as it was her party, which created the mess, they can´t too openly to say it aloud. Being the person she is, she cannot either make it happen in a way that would keep UK in EU in practise (Norway model), but could made to look like UK left. Naturally the deal with EU would have been a bit worse, but as no hardly anyone seemed to have known what EU is, no one would have cared really. The Sun could have started to say something truthful about EU and most would have thought UK is so strong and stable. 

But what no one thought true, was that the right wing populists took over the party and started to want to create chaos and austerity through no deal. Business started to suffer and lots of deals were lost. (if people suffered, well, that´s been in UK not a real worry for a long long time). News, warnings and actual truths about the cost of no deal started pouring in and finally some MPs started to think twice about Brexit. May meanwhile is interested only in delivering a Brexit, no matter what really. After all, she knows that once that is done, her days as MP will be over. Being in the spotlight is pretty lucrative for someone, well, not so talented. 

But all this analysis and reaction should have happened a year ago, all this is so very very late and had caused huge amount of stress both to business and people. It is not too late to call it all off, in more people with integrity would step up, but that would need lot of courage. A virtue not common among politcians. We kind of hope that maybe this chaos will finally show Brits that Brexit was a mistake from the beginning, based on a lie and the promises will never happen. But would anyone bet money on it? No. Most likely you will get a version of a membership, called a deal, which will benefit you less, but cost you more. EU will gain business, ULK wil lose. 

Good luck, as you really need it!


----------



## KittenKong

The Wild Bunch said:


> Voted for a delay... surprise surprise. See what Europe say now


Typical 'British' arrogance, believing they can dictate to Europe and the rest of the world.

If this is purely to allow May extra time in pushing for her deal they should tell her to **** off.


----------



## The Wild Bunch

Magyarmum said:


> Did you really expect anything different?


No, of course not but the fact that they think we can just go swanning back to say we need more time is laughable. Macron has pretty much said it will be a big, fat no if we ask and the entire situation just makes the UK look absolutely ridiculous



KittenKong said:


> Typical 'British' arrogance, believing they can dictate to Europe and the rest of the world.
> 
> If this is purely to allow May extra time in pushing for her deal they should tell her to **** off.


I agree


----------



## Magyarmum

Having watched the whole week's saga as it happened on CNN TV, this was one question no one asked!

https://www.dw.com/en/brexit-is-the...n-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-newsletter

*Brexit: Is the EU willing to grant an Article 50 extension?*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Hypocrites in power and hypocrites in opposition.
Voting according to your moral duty or fear of your party whip?


Why people can’t have referendum about May Deal... because it is a bad deal, we all know it, first vote in Parliament showed it!


All that so the rich and mighty can deregulate the financial services and rule the masses absolutely.

Especially farmers and motor industry shot themselves in both feet, but no second chance for you to change your mind...
Hello Welsh, hello Sunderland... how does it feel when it hits home?

The non EU immigration will be higher than ever... 

As a result of new deals with non EU countries... 
Wonder how UKiP supporters feel about it?

EU must think now - Do we really want those muppets ?

Farage trying to persuade MEPs to block extensions... if anything that may persuade EU to give it after all.
But the perspective of getting rid of May and Farage must be so tempting...


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Having watched the whole week's saga as it happened on CNN TV, this was one question no one asked!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/brexit-is-the...n-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-newsletter
> 
> *Brexit: Is the EU willing to grant an Article 50 extension?*


My thoughts exactly !


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> My thoughts exactly !


In comparison the camp in Calais looks orderly...

Do they want to spend more time listening to the deranged, manic woman?
Or the moronic, arrogant clown Farage?


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

I voted remain but I'm now supporting Brexit because that's what people voted for albeit a slim majority, and the politicians aren't honouring it. It's the most despicable undemocratic shower of shit. Another referendum will just be a waste of money because the Leave majority will be higher. People who previously voted to remain will vote leave, just for the sake of supporting democracy.

The 1975 Referendum put a lot of noses out of joint but nobody tried to reverse the result. Very outspoken Anti - Euros such as Enoch Powell accepted the result and we went in. David Cameron promised the referendum with the belief that people would vote to stay.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MissMiloKitty said:


> I voted remain but I'm now supporting Brexit because that's what people voted for albeit a slim majority, and the politicians aren't honouring it. It's the most despicable undemocratic shower of shit. Another referendum will just be a waste of money because the Leave majority will be higher. People who previously voted to remain will vote leave, just for the sake of supporting democracy.
> 
> The 1975 Referendum put a lot of noses out of joint but nobody tried to reverse the result. Very outspoken Anti - Euros such as Enoch Powell accepted the result and we went in. David Cameron promised the referendum with the belief that people would vote to stay.


Thank you for your post.

Don't think politicians don't honour it, they don't want May Deal or No Deal, May then accuses them of that.
Lying that is the only deal possible.
Of course not, it is her red lines.
Referendum did not have that red lines.

We should have access to Custom Unions, and to Single Market, like Norway or Switzerland.

Did people vote to leave Customs Union?

We don't need to ruin our country to Leave.

I understand this as a sensible compromise.
After all 48% definitely wanted CS and SM?
How many of the others? I bet not 52 wanted No Deal or Rotten Deal?

She is unable to reach out , she is a bully.


----------



## Arnie83

MissMiloKitty said:


> I voted remain but I'm now supporting Brexit because that's what people voted for albeit a slim majority, and the politicians aren't honouring it. It's the most despicable undemocratic shower of shit. Another referendum will just be a waste of money because the Leave majority will be higher. People who previously voted to remain will vote leave, just for the sake of supporting democracy.
> 
> The 1975 Referendum put a lot of noses out of joint but nobody tried to reverse the result. Very outspoken Anti - Euros such as Enoch Powell accepted the result and we went in. David Cameron promised the referendum with the belief that people would vote to stay.


What sort of Brexit are you supporting?


----------



## KittenKong

MissMiloKitty said:


> I voted remain but I'm now supporting Brexit because that's what people voted for albeit a slim majority, and the politicians aren't honouring it. It's the most despicable undemocratic shower of shit. Another referendum will just be a waste of money because the Leave majority will be higher. People who previously voted to remain will vote leave, just for the sake of supporting democracy.
> 
> The 1975 Referendum put a lot of noses out of joint but nobody tried to reverse the result. Very outspoken Anti - Euros such as Enoch Powell accepted the result and we went in. David Cameron promised the referendum with the belief that people would vote to stay.


You forget the 1975 majority was considerably higher than 52%-48% and was not led by liars and involving criminal activity. Most of the press at the time reported EEC membership significantly too.

You argue against another referendum. Why, seeing you've changed your own mind?

And another who conveniently forgets Scotland, Gibraltar and NI did not vote to leave I see.

If Brexit happens I'll look forward to seeing the UK broken up.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant! This is the response I wanted to see.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552634363


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant! This is the response I wanted to see.
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552634363
> 
> View attachment 396929


Be careful what you wish for...........................

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the-eu-should-fear-a-second-uk-referendum/

*Why the EU should fear a second UK referendum*


----------



## Elles

I voted remain too and I would vote for brexit if we had a second referendum. Any brexit.

Theresa May didn’t sit in a room at number 10 and come up with her deal by herself and I doubt a handful of brexemists have much say, or they would have got what they wanted by now, despite accusations that JRM has TM in his back pocket. Her deal is the best she and the Eu could come up with, taking into account what Remainers and the Eu want. Her brexit supporting negotiators didn’t resign because the brexit she wanted was too hard, but because she stopped them from a too hard negotiation and Brexit. The woman can’t win, because too many of her own want to stay in the eu, it’s not because too many want to leave, now is it? She would have had more chance of getting her deal through, if she had pandered to brexiteers, she didn’t. Remainers don’t care what we voted for, only staying in is good enough.

I’d vote leave and force them into real and proper negotiation. They’d have to buckle down if they were told to twice and with a larger majority the second time. If in the end we did vote to stay in, the Eu have had a small slap on the wrist and if they don’t change their ways, eventually we’ll all leave it.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I voted remain too and I would vote for brexit if we had a second referendum. *Any brexit*.
> 
> Theresa May didn't sit in a room at number 10 and come up with her deal by herself and I doubt a handful of brexemists have much say, or they would have got what they wanted by now, despite accusations that JRM has TM in his back pocket. Her deal is the best she and the Eu could come up with, taking into account what Remainers and the Eu want. Her brexit supporting negotiators didn't resign because the brexit she wanted was too hard, but because she stopped them from a too hard negotiation and Brexit. The woman can't win, because too many of her own want to stay in the eu, it's not because too many want to leave, now is it? She would have had more chance of getting her deal through, if she had pandered to brexiteers, she didn't. Remainers don't care what we voted for, only staying in is good enough.
> 
> *I'd vote leave and force them into real and proper negotiation. *They'd have to buckle down if they were told to twice and with a larger majority the second time. If in the end we did vote to stay in, the Eu have had a small slap on the wrist and if they don't change their ways, eventually we'll all leave it.


"I'd vote leave and force them into real and proper negotiation."

But a 'no deal' Brexit wouldn't have any negotiation attached to it. We'd be out, on WTO terms, with nearly all our current free trade deals - both with and via the EU - defunct. Only the extremists want that.

Not being deliberately awkward, but May's deal has been rejected by soft Brexiters, hard Brexiters, and (the smallest group) Remainers. May has refused to allow Parliament to discuss Norway, Canada etc. so there's now a lot of work to do to determine what might be on any further referendum, unless she wants to act even more like a dictator and put her (by then) thrice rejected plan to the people. (That's assuming it doesn't pass in the next few days, which I think it actually might.)

And I do think May probably did sit in a room - admittedly with her close civil service advisors - and come up with the deal. That's why, when it was presented to the Cabinet at Chequers, it cause considerable surprise, and resignations, not least of Davis, who thought he had been in charge of negotiations.


----------



## Elles

I thought they voted yesterday to take no deal off the table?

So if May’s deal has been rejected by everyone, who are the people voting in favour of it? How do you know the smallest group are Remainers? Their voting history might say otherwise. You still believe that despite your thinking brexit is a disaster that shouldn’t happen, that remain voting, Eu loving MPs and peers have meekly stepped down in favour of what the people voted for nearly 3 years ago? I don’t believe it for even half a second. Sorry.


----------



## Elles

There was one MP who said on tv that he was going to vote for TM’s deal, but in the end couldn’t, because he believes in the Eu and wants to stay in. Who was it? Anyone else see it and remember?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> "I'd vote leave and force them into real and proper negotiation."
> 
> But a 'no deal' Brexit wouldn't have any negotiation attached to it. We'd be out, on WTO terms, with nearly all our current free trade deals - both with and via the EU - defunct. Only the extremists want that.
> 
> Not being deliberately awkward, but May's deal has been rejected by soft Brexiters, hard Brexiters, and (the smallest group) Remainers. May has refused to allow Parliament to discuss Norway, Canada etc. so there's now a lot of work to do to determine what might be on any further referendum, unless she wants to act even more like a dictator and put her (by then) thrice rejected plan to the people. (That's assuming it doesn't pass in the next few days, which I think it actually might.)
> 
> And I do think May probably did sit in a room - admittedly with her close civil service advisors - and come up with the deal. That's why, when it was presented to the Cabinet at Chequers, it cause considerable surprise, and resignations, not least of Davis, who thought he had been in charge of negotiations.


I think the time for May to have won her deal would have been last Tuesday as that would have ensured the UK's departure on 29/03/19 with no turning back.

The media would've had a field day with May branded a 'hero' for single-handedly taking on the 'EU bullies' and 'winning the war'.

To hold the vote again within a week with absolutely no changes looks desperate because it is.

I see the Daily Express have crossed out their "Days to Brexit" advent calendar on the front page :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Be careful what you wish for...........................
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the-eu-should-fear-a-second-uk-referendum/
> 
> *Why the EU should fear a second UK referendum*


The 2016 corrupted referendum had one purpose, to destroy the EU from within.

Individual countries like the ROI would be willing to become part of the UK dispensing for the need of a border. Other countries like Holland with Wilders winning and ditto with Le Penn in France would form coalitions with the UK. They would have probably argued amongst themselves who were the superior nation leading to a war just like they used to do.

While I except the threat of the far right is a serious one, I don't believe people should succumb to fears of them, just as they say they wouldn't let terrorists win.

History has told us all about the far right and their motives. This time it is the UK government themselves who appear to be embracing it rather than fighting against it.

Then, the other extreme of the Soviet bloc and iron curtain countries.

Technically they shouldn't be a second referendum. A50 and the 2016 'referendum' result should be voided with what we know now about the criminality, lies and cheating.

Why are you so for Theresa May being allowed a third say on her deal but not the general public?

If the argument to that is the GP are incapable to make decisions and, yes just the other morning there was a Sun waving lout in the newsagents who'd openly just purchased a copy of his favourite paper, that could be justified.

So, using that argument, why the hell were they given a say in 2016 then?


----------



## KittenKong

This really made me laugh.
Dumbo as the elephant is lovely of course.

Just look at the release date! Couldn't have timed it better

https://disney.co.uk/movies/dumbo-2019


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh G*d will it never end.

I wouldn't blame the EU told TM to get lost, she's done nothing but mess them around for nearly three years.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I thought they voted yesterday to take no deal off the table?
> 
> So if May's deal has been rejected by everyone, who are the people voting in favour of it? How do you know the smallest group are Remainers? Their voting history might say otherwise. You still believe that despite your thinking brexit is a disaster that shouldn't happen, that remain voting, Eu loving MPs and peers have meekly stepped down in favour of what the people voted for nearly 3 years ago? I don't believe it for even half a second. Sorry.


It takes more than a vote to take No Deal off the table.

I don't think I've ever said that Brexit is a disaster that shouldn't happen. It will leave the country worse off than it would otherwise be, certainly, but it will only be a disaster for some people currently on the margins.

I was disappointed that a majority of voters saw our future as a more isolated than inclusive country.

And I think that the majority of MPs are of the opinion that the UK should indeed leave the EU after the 2016 vote, though some, I am pleased to see, want a ratifying referendum once there has been a decision on what Leave means in reality. That informed decision would, for me, be democracy, as opposed to a vote based on promises of a future which have pretty much all disappeared like the morning mist.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Oh G*d will it never end.
> 
> I wouldn't blame the EU told TM to get lost, she's done nothing but mess them around for nearly three years.


Completely delusional. The entire UK population are behind her and back her Brexit plan, yet won't allow them a vote on it.

The EU and indeed the rest of the world know she's a supreme leader of a superpower, Great Britain. They will succumb to her.

Such delusions akin to Idi Amin...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Completely delusional. The entire UK population are behind her and back her Brexit plan, yet won't allow them a vote on it.
> 
> The EU and indeed the rest of the world know she's a supreme leader of a superpower, Great Britain. They will succumb to her.
> 
> Such delusions akin to Idi Amin...


What rubbish comparing TM to Idi Amin, The Butcher of Uganda.

The fact that you do so, says more about you than it does about him!

https://www.biography.com/people/idi-amin-9183487


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> What rubbish comparing TM to Idi Amin, The Butcher of Uganda.
> 
> The fact that you do so, says more about you than it does about him!
> 
> https://www.biography.com/people/idi-amin-9183487


Come on though. I'm talking about her delusional _personality _that have some similarities and that of other dictators I could mention.

Whatever happens now, even should May win her Brexit deal, be it the third or twelfth attempt she has failed.

She vowed to deliver her Brexit that put her personal dislike of immigrants at the top of her agenda by 30/03/19.

It ain't gonna happen on that date


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

KittenKong said:


> You forget the 1975 majority was considerably higher than 52%-48% and was not led by liars and involving criminal activity. Most of the press at the time reported EEC membership significantly too.
> 
> You argue against another referendum. Why, seeing you've changed your own mind?
> 
> And another who conveniently forgets Scotland, Gibraltar and NI did not vote to leave I see.
> 
> If Brexit happens I'll look forward to seeing the UK broken up.


I haven't changed my mind at all. I'm still a remainer but I still have to accept that the majority voted leave. Nobody in 2016 said it was too close to call, it was declared a victory for the Brexiteers. 
Had the result been a slim majority for Remain then would the government and media be calling for another referendum? 
If they do have another referendum, I do believe that it would still result in Brexit. It really irritates me how the politicians argue amongst themselves but don't seem to care what the people want.


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

Arnie83 said:


> What sort of Brexit are you supporting?


Certainly not a "no deal" Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

MissMiloKitty said:


> I haven't changed my mind at all. I'm still a remainer but I still have to accept that the majority voted leave. Nobody in 2016 said it was too close to call, it was declared a victory for the Brexiteers.
> Had the result been a slim majority for Remain then would the government and media be calling for another referendum?
> If they do have another referendum, I do believe that it would still result in Brexit. It really irritates me how the politicians argue amongst themselves but don't seem to care what the people want.


I disagree, you are a Brexit supporter whatever your reason if you now support it in much the same way a leaver changing their mind is now a remainer.

I can see your motive is to attempt to get people like myself on the side of Brexit. I've seen this on social media too. You are wasting your time.

You know fine well Nigel Farage said it would be unfinished business had Remain won by 52-48%. The media would have campaigned for a re-match until they got the vote they wanted too.

Which is exactly what Theresa May is now doing with 'her deal'.

You bleat on about, 'respecting democracy'. Do you call this democratic?


----------



## KittenKong

MissMiloKitty said:


> Certainly not a "no deal" Brexit.


That doesn't answer the question. What Brexit do you want? Unless you support Theresa May's deal you are unlikely to get the Brexit you want.

Most Brexit supporters detest May's deal as do most remain supporters such as myself, though through very different reasons.

Some would argue not to support no deal is not supporting Brexit.

You can't win.

Then, if they were to be another public vote that the media tell their readers to back No Deal and that wins surely, using your argument you would support No Deal.


----------



## Jesthar

MissMiloKitty said:


> I haven't changed my mind at all. I'm still a remainer but I still have to accept that the majority voted leave. Nobody in 2016 said it was too close to call, it was declared a victory for the Brexiteers.
> *Had the result been a slim majority for Remain then would the government and media be calling for another referendum? *
> If they do have another referendum, I do believe that it would still result in Brexit. It really irritates me how the politicians argue amongst themselves but don't seem to care what the people want.


Yes, Farage said so before the referendum if memory serves. 

To be honest, I find the whole 'it's what the majority voted for so we must do it no matter what' soundbite that the politicans keep pushing a total cop out. The referendum question was far too binary for that kind of argument, and that some politicos are brazen enough to claim they know exactly what kind of Brexit people voted far is completely out of order given that most of them, pre-Referendum, were talking about everything from the Norway model to leaving immediately on WTO terms without waiting two years.

I'm pretty sure many leave voters would have expected some sort of deal involving the Customs Union and/or the Single Market. I'm pretty sure most voters never gave the Irish border even a moments thought. I'm absolutely certain no-one expected Our Glorious Leaders to spend two years infighting and snarking like children rather than getting on with negotiating a sensible and workable exit deal.

Personally, I see a semantic difference between a People's Vote and a second referendum - I don't think they are the same thing. I see a People's Vote as being more of a 'The majority voted to leave, but what Leave would look like wasn't defined. Here are the options now available for leaving (looks like May's Deal or No Deal at the moment) - knowing what you know now, do you still want to do one of these or would you prefer to remain?' More of an 'Are you still sure' vote (as some leading Brexiteers said would be sensible to have after negotiations were complete if memory serves). Given that there's no going back on this one once it's done, it feels churlish for the government to deny the country a final say.


----------



## Arnie83

MissMiloKitty said:


> Certainly not a "no deal" Brexit.


So if that was the only one on offer, you would presumably reject it.

Not looking for an argument, but a further referendum, with real defined options on the ballot, would allow 'the people' to choose that which represents what they actually wanted when they originally voted to leave. And if what they wanted isn't there - because it hasn't been possible to negotiate it - then they could choose something else that is on offer, or they could choose not to leave at all.

That's democratic isn't it?


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1656335761136497&id=541961349240616


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156501770638541&id=350097413540


----------



## noushka05

MissMiloKitty said:


> I voted remain but I'm now supporting Brexit because that's what people voted for albeit a slim majority, and the politicians aren't honouring it. It's the most despicable undemocratic shower of shit. Another referendum will just be a waste of money because the Leave majority will be higher. People who previously voted to remain will vote leave, just for the sake of supporting democracy.
> 
> The 1975 Referendum put a lot of noses out of joint but nobody tried to reverse the result. Very outspoken Anti - Euros such as Enoch Powell accepted the result and we went in. David Cameron promised the referendum with the belief that people would vote to stay.


But leave won by lying & cheating, the leave campaign was aided & abetted by hostile outside forces. Brexit is an affront to our democracy. And many people are who voted leave are courageously speaking out that they have now changed their minds. https://twitter.com/RemainerNow


----------



## noushka05

100% this.

_#ClimateChange and #Brexit are identical in two fundamental ways:

Both are inflicted by the old upon the young, who will ultimately pay the highest price.

Both require everyone, regardless of political party affiliation, to immediately confront and fix them.
_

............


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> But leave won by lying & cheating, the leave campaign was aided & abetted by hostile outside forces. Brexit is an affront to our democracy. And many people are who voted leave are courageously speaking out that they have now changed their minds. https://twitter.com/RemainerNow


It's all a bit strident, but largely true.

The bottom line - which I think everyone knows if they're honest - is that the Brexiteers' objections to a confirmatory referendum are nothing more than a manufactured veneer to hide their fear that the People might have changed their minds.


----------



## Elles

Explain why some Remainers in government have also said they don’t want a second referendum? Probably because they too are afraid that the People might have changed their minds. Just they’re thinking of different people.

As you aren’t a brexiteer, you are just guessing at why some don’t want a second referendum. I’d prefer there wasn’t one, I don’t see the point, but I don’t care that much either way. If there is one and people do vote to stay in this time, there’ll only be another when government bodies have had time to come up with a better plan. 

A second referendum would only be held from the hope that people would vote to stay in this time and the the government can relinquish their responsibility and take the easier option. Some Remainers only want one now they know people will vote to leave and they want a second chance of persuading them to stay. Nothing to do with confirming anything and everything to do with overturning the vote. If we’re honest, that’s why any Remainer wants one.


----------



## Happy Paws2

At least if there was a second referendum we would know more about what we are voting for this time, last time it was just leave or remain and lies about alot for money for NHS.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Explain why some Remainers in government have also said they don't want a second referendum? Probably because they too are afraid that the People might have changed their minds. Just they're thinking of different people.
> 
> As you aren't a brexiteer, you are just guessing at why some don't want a second referendum. I'd prefer there wasn't one, I don't see the point, but I don't care that much either way. If there is one and people do vote to stay in this time, there'll only be another when government bodies have had time to come up with a better plan.
> 
> A second referendum would only be held from the hope that people would vote to stay in this time and the the government can relinquish their responsibility and take the easier option. Some Remainers only want one now they know people will vote to leave and they want a second chance of persuading them to stay. Nothing to do with confirming anything and everything to do with overturning the vote. If we're honest, that's why any Remainer wants one.


"If we're honest, that's why any Remainer wants one"

It isn't why I want one. I've said many times that I think a second vote, with May's deal on it, would confirm Brexit. I want one because the first one was not an informed vote. It was a ludicrously inadequate binary question, and all we had to go on were lies, exaggerations and contradictory promises. Call that democracy in action?

Surgeon's aren't allowed to operate on an ingrowing toenail without _informed_ consent, yet we are supposed to think that a single, uninformed decision affecting the next few decades of the lives of 450,000,000 people (yes I take into account all the people in Europe affected by our actions; others may not) should be sufficient?

A burglar given 6 months in jail will have their case reviewed when new evidence comes to light, yet we are supposed to ignore the mass of information that negates most or all of the promises made 3 years ago when it's a matter of national importance?

And yet people claim that an *informed* vote, on a *different* question, with the government *supporting the opposite result *would be a re-run of the first and therefore an undemocratic betrayal? Absolute rubbish.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> But leave won by lying & cheating, the leave campaign was aided & abetted by hostile outside forces. Brexit is an affront to our democracy. And many people are who voted leave are courageously speaking out that they have now changed their minds.


Indeed, those who originally voted leave who have changed their minds want another say, yet those who have changed their mind to leave don't!

How is that, "Respecting the democratic vote"?!


----------



## Elles

Exactly. Just as I can’t speak for every remainer, no one can speak for every brexiteer. Though both of us just did. 

We are no more or less informed today than we were 3 years ago, or 3 months ago imo. People have been saying we are better informed and should have another vote for over 2 years. Not so long ago we were warned that flights would be grounded as part of ‘better informed’ weren’t we. We have been told all kinds of things by all kinds of people since the referendum. Some true, some not, some will come to pass, some won’t. The same as before it. 

Is a divided, but mainly Eu supporting government a reason to stay in the Eu? At the time I thought it was reason enough, but people didn’t think it was so I’m not so sure they will now either. If the government was in favour of leaving the Eu, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, it would have done and dusted and we’d be leaving in a couple of weeks, if we hadn’t already.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> "If we're honest, that's why any Remainer wants one"
> 
> It isn't why I want one. I've said many times that I think a second vote, with May's deal on it, would confirm Brexit. I want one because the first one was not an informed vote. It was a ludicrously inadequate binary question, and all we had to go on were lies, exaggerations and contradictory promises. Call that democracy in action?
> 
> Surgeon's aren't allowed to operate on an ingrowing toenail without _informed_ consent, yet we are supposed to think that a single, uninformed decision affecting the next few decades of the lives of 450,000,000 people (yes I take into account all the people in Europe affected by our actions; others may not) should be sufficient?
> 
> A burglar given 6 months in jail will have their case reviewed when new evidence comes to light, yet we are supposed to ignore the mass of information that negates most or all of the promises made 3 years ago when it's a matter of national importance?
> 
> And yet people claim that an *informed* vote, on a *different* question, with the government *supporting the opposite result *would be a re-run of the first and therefore an undemocratic betrayal? Absolute rubbish.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Exactly. Just as I can't speak for every remainer, no one can speak for every brexiteer. Though both of us just did.


Suggest to me a reason, other than concern that the People might vote a different way, that stands up to any sort of logical analysis. And please don't say that it's a re-run of the same vote, because it plainly isn't.



Elles said:


> We are no more or less informed today than we were 3 years ago, or 3 months ago imo. People have been saying we are better informed and should have another vote for over 2 years. Not so long ago we were warned that flights would be grounded as part of 'better informed' weren't we. We have been told all kinds of things by all kinds of people since the referendum. Some true, some not, some will come to pass, some won't. The same as before it.


No more informed! How can you possibly say that?

Did people know about the ins and outs Irish border issue? About the £39 billion divorce bill? That the £350 million for the NHS was nonsense? That our trade deals would not simply be rolled over? The we would NOT get "the exact same benefits" as with membership? That the negotiations would NOT be "the easiest in human history"? That, although there was no recession, economic growth would stall and international investment would drop 20%

We were warned that flight *could* be grounded, not that they would be. Action has since been taken to remove that issue. Warnings are not predictions; the diffeence between them is mitigating action, but only if it is possible.



Elles said:


> Is a divided, but mainly Eu supporting government a reason to stay in the Eu? At the time I thought it was reason enough, but people didn't think it was so I'm not so sure they will now either. If the government was in favour of leaving the Eu, we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would have done and dusted and we'd be leaving in a couple of weeks, if we hadn't already.


The government ARE in favour of leaving the EU. It's May's deal. And if it were on the ballot paper they would be recommending that we accept it.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> View attachment 397039


A parrot in a wind ...

Not entirely sure I follow!


----------



## Elles

You just said that’s not why you want a second vote. If you don’t think or hope people have changed their mind, what reason is good enough to spend the time and money and the dissent a second referendum would cost? 

It’s not a poll that a couple of phone calls and totting up in a back room will do, it’s a countrywide organised voting that would cost millions and set into motion propaganda and political shenanigans worse than ever. That’s without taking into account the effect on democracy and trust, if there’s any left.

People are as informed as they were before. There are ongoing lies and scares and blaming. In the newspapers and tweets people like to link, the forums and Facebook groups where they wind each other up and egg each other on. It’s worse than it was, not better. And it changes on a daily basis, so what was true last week isn’t necessarily true the next.

I think the reason even some Remainers would rather not have a second go, is because they see the horror it would be and even “no deal” could be better in the long run than what we’d get by staying in today and then doing it all over again and leave tomorrow anyway.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> People are as informed as they were before.


I'm afraid if you think that then we can't really have a discussion on the matter.

Because, as I said, I want a further referendum precisely because we now have more information than we had before. At the very least we know what we're not going to get.


----------



## Mrs.Zee

Again, lets see what the EU countries have to say about Brexit from today´s Helsingin Sanomat (slightly conservative, liberal quality newspaper). Apologies for the rushed post, but I want to take my doggies for walk.
A summary:
"May is pursuing the will of people but acting against the interest of the people"
May seems to have a noble goal - to respect the will of people. By that she means that she has to respect the 2016 referendum. You can´t give up Brexit or have another referendum, as she thinks that she´d disrespect the will of people.

Pursuing this strategy, she has shown disrespect to the parliamentary system, which for hundreds of years has served to act as the people wish,
Parliament has voted for several suggestions, additions, advice or proposal made by the government. No logic between them, parties split, MP saying one thing and voting another, supporting one thing, but opposing almost similar thing. And this continues from one day to another. So this degradation of parliament is justified as "respecting the will of the people".

May will bring most likely for the third time her deal to be voted, as now she thinks her deal could pass, as no deal was rejected. So she has ask parliament three times the same thing, but she can´t ask people what they want another time?
If her deal is voted down, no one knows what happens next. Less than two weeks and no new plan. Britain can face a hard Brexit after all, because of the government´s boned-headed, mad politics. Not good for anyone, disaster for UK, bad for EU and above all, the British people will suffer most. The people, who´s will was so sacred for May.

Meanwhile more and more people are getting tired of being patient with May, as we want to focus on making EU even better. We all know it is not perfect, we have lots to do. But now, as the only positive thing about Brexit is that even the most enthusiastic populists don´t want to leave the EU, even when they can´t find anything good to say about it, as they know that everybody would think they are total idiots and wouldn´t get a single vote.
Still, thank you Boris, Moggs, Farage & co, you made sure we learned to appreciate the EU much more and will not take it for granted.


----------



## Arnie83

Mrs.Zee said:


> Again, lets see what the EU countries have to say about Brexit from today´s Helsingin Sanomat (slightly conservative, liberal quality newspaper). Apologies for the rushed post, but I want to take my doggies for walk.
> A summary:
> "May is pursuing the will of people but acting against the interest of the people"
> May seems to have a noble goal - to respect the will of people. By that she means that she has to respect the 2016 referendum. You can´t give up Brexit or have another referendum, as she thinks that she´d disrespect the will of people.
> 
> Pursuing this strategy, she has shown disrespect to the parliamentary system, which for hundreds of years has served to act as the people wish,
> Parliament has voted for several suggestions, additions, advice or proposal made by the government. No logic between them, parties split, MP saying one thing and voting another, supporting one thing, but opposing almost similar thing. And this continues from one day to another. So this degradation of parliament is justified as "respecting the will of the people".
> 
> May will bring most likely for the third time her deal to be voted, as now she thinks her deal could pass, as no deal was rejected. So she has ask parliament three times the same thing, but she can´t ask people what they want another time?
> If her deal is voted down, no one knows what happens next. Less than two weeks and no new plan. Britain can face a hard Brexit after all, because of the government´s boned-headed, mad politics. Not good for anyone, disaster for UK, bad for EU and above all, the British people will suffer most. The people, who´s will was so sacred for May.
> 
> Meanwhile more and more people are getting tired of being patient with May, as we want to focus on making EU even better. We all know it is not perfect, we have lots to do. But now, as the only positive thing about Brexit is that even the most enthusiastic populists don´t want to leave the EU, even when they can´t find anything good to say about it, as they know that everybody would think they are total idiots and wouldn´t get a single vote.
> Still, thank you Boris, Moggs, Farage & co, you made sure we learned to appreciate the EU much more and will not take it for granted.


Makes me feel even more European and even less British.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm afraid if you think that then we can't really have a discussion on the matter.
> 
> Because, as I said, I want a further referendum precisely because we now have more information than we had before. At the very least we know what we're not going to get.


I do. I think we have different information, but it means the same thing. Before the referendum Remainers warned of dire consequences that could result from leaving the Eu and brexiteers told of benefits that could result from leaving the Eu. The same is true today, except the warnings became more and more exaggerated until I'm not sure even remainers believe them all and the benefits became less exaggerated and more believable. :Eggonface

Today it's remainers that are screaming from the rooftops, before it was brexiteers like Farage. The song remains the same. :Singing


----------



## Elles

I said before, that if we leave the Eu, it will benefit Europe as the Eu will have to get it’s act together before other countries leave. People working for the Eu don’t want to lose their jobs any more than anyone else does. Especially as over 10,000 of them, more than one in 5, earn more than Theresa May does as our PM. It was one of the statistics that leave used as an example of why the Eu is a bloated gravy train.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I said before, that if we leave the Eu, it will benefit Europe as the Eu will have to get it's act together before other countries leave. People working for the Eu don't want to lose their jobs any more than anyone else does. Especially as over 10,000 of them, more than one in 5, earn more than Theresa May does as our PM. It was one of the statistics that leave used as an example of why the Eu is a bloated gravy train.


The ERG is not a bloated gravy train?


----------



## Elles

? 

They’re politicians that we voted for and as MPs we pay them less than we do the 10k+ who work for the Eu and who earn more than our PM. Not sure why there’s a comparison. If you want to get the ERG out of office, you might try to make a case for it I suppose. 

The pay grade and that it’s tax payers money, is why some voted to leave the Eu. That hasn’t changed. Anyhow, paying one person to push pens and shuffle papers, isn’t a reason to pay someone else to push pens and shuffle papers. How many do we need? I can quite understand why a tax payer in this country who is barely managing to scrape a living and may even have had to ask the food banks for help, might be resentful of an office worker who earns more than our pm and has all the benefits of working for the Eu, when they see it on a YouTube video, or a documentary on the beeb.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I do. I think we have different information, but it means the same thing. Before the referendum Remainers warned of dire consequences that could result from leaving the Eu and brexiteers told of benefits that could result from leaving the Eu. The same is true today, except the warnings became more and more exaggerated until I'm not sure even remainers believe them all and the benefits became less exaggerated and more believable. :Eggonface
> 
> Today it's remainers that are screaming from the rooftops, before it was brexiteers like Farage. The song remains the same. :Singing


The dire warnings are all about a No Deal Brexit, and even the (moderate) Brexiteers admit that there would a period of pain. The only warnings we have about Brexit with a deal (any feasible deal) is that the country will be worse off economically than had we stayed. That is simple logic for reasons I've pointed out before and is hardly project doom.

Meanwhile, with the exception of Minford the nutty professor, I'm not aware of any economic benefits predicted by the Brexiteers; but by all means correct me.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I said before, that if we leave the Eu, it will benefit Europe as the Eu will have to get it's act together before other countries leave. People working for the Eu don't want to lose their jobs any more than anyone else does. Especially as over 10,000 of them, more than one in 5, earn *more than Theresa May does as our PM*. It was one of the statistics that leave used as an example of why the Eu is a bloated gravy train.


I always like statistics like this. Do they, I wonder, take into account the post-job directorships, non-executive directorships, after dinner speeches at 6 figure sums a shot, and the multi-million pound memoir deals?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> I said before, that if we leave the Eu, it will benefit Europe as the Eu will have to get it's act together before other countries leave. People working for the Eu don't want to lose their jobs any more than anyone else does. Especially as over 10,000 of them, more than one in 5, earn more than Theresa May does as our PM. It was one of the statistics that leave used as an example of why the Eu is a bloated gravy train.


:Jawdrop


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I always like statistics like this. Do they, I wonder, take into account the post-job directorships, non-executive directorships, after dinner speeches at 6 figure sums a shot, and the multi-million pound memoir deals?


No. Why would they? The low paid nurse who relies on food banks isn't paying for it out of her taxes.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No. Why would they? The low paid nurse who relies on food banks isn't paying for it out of her taxes.


Because using the benchmark of our PM's salary to suggest that civil servants in Brussels are overpaid doesn't take into account all the facts, and is therefore rather misleading.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I always like statistics like this. Do they, I wonder, take into account the post-job directorships, non-executive directorships, after dinner speeches at 6 figure sums a shot, and the multi-million pound memoir deals?





Arnie83 said:


> Because using the benchmark of our PM's salary to suggest that civil servants in Brussels are overpaid doesn't take into account all the facts, and is therefore rather misleading.


https://transparency.eu/mep-income/

*Moonlighting in Brussels: side jobs and ethics concerns in the European Parliament*

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/e...age-annual-uk-wage-every-month-164057042.html

*Christmas pay rise means EU chiefs make UK average annual wage every month
*


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> At least if there was a second referendum we would know more about what we are voting for this time, last time it was just leave or remain and lies about alot for money for NHS.


True though to be honest , its been so confusing that I don't think we'd be any the wiser . What would leave mean now? The MPs voted against No deal and Mrs Mays deal .


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://transparency.eu/mep-income/
> 
> *Moonlighting in Brussels: side jobs and ethics concerns in the European Parliament*
> 
> https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/e...age-annual-uk-wage-every-month-164057042.html
> 
> *Christmas pay rise means EU chiefs make UK average annual wage every month*


Yeah, but all I said was that comparisons against the UK PM's salary don't take into account the massive amounts that he or she can and will make when they leave office. Civil servants in Brussels don't get £5 million book deals at the end of it!

If we start looking into what Tory MPs make I dare say we'd find similar stories, like Boris' "pittance" (his description) of the £250,000 he gets for a Telegraph column which is little more than an advert for his leadership campaign.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> No. Why would they? The low paid nurse who relies on food banks isn't paying for it out of her taxes.


If memory serves, under 0.8% of what I pay in income tax and NIC ends up in the EU budget. I strongly suspect EU membership saves me significantly more money than it personally costs me...


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> If memory serves, under 0.8% of what I pay in income tax and NIC ends up in the EU budget. I strongly suspect EU membership saves me significantly more money than it personally costs me...


"Strongly suspect" isn't really enough to persuade skint brexiteers to change their vote second time round though is it? They will need facts. eg this is roughly what it cost each U.K. tax payer and this is what they get for the money. If it can't be done, or the money is seen to support the wealthy and bureaucracy, it's another nail in the coffin isn't it. This is the problem. Forget immigration and racists and far right politics, that's just minority extremism, the Eu is it's own worst enemy imo. However much a mess our government has or hasn't made of leaving it, the Eu is still the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...ock-a-third-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/


----------



## KittenKong

It's not about Brexit anymore, it's about saving Theresa May's job. It looks like the DUP are to become formal coalition partners. Arlene Foster as Deputy PM anyone?

As reported by the Telegraph of all papers.

















Her personal withdrawal deal which focuses on our loss of FoM before the economy. Her personal withdrawal deal detested by most Brexit supporters and EU supporters alike.

So much for her promising to stand down before the next General Election.

A serious liability for the Conservative Party let alone the UK and the rest of the world.


----------



## KittenKong

Good point.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> "Strongly suspect" isn't really enough to persuade skint brexiteers to change their vote second time round though is it? They will need facts. eg this is roughly what it cost each U.K. tax payer and this is what they get for the money. If it can't be done, or the money is seen to support the wealthy and bureaucracy, it's another nail in the coffin isn't it. This is the problem. Forget immigration and racists and far right politics, that's just minority extremism, the Eu is it's own worst enemy imo. However much a mess our government has or hasn't made of leaving it, the Eu is still the Eu.


You can find out how much we contribute on here - 34p per day. Far, far less than we're shovelling into leaving the EU, its already cost us billions! https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...les/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

The benefits of being in the EU far outweigh our minuscule contributions.










We know leaving the EU is going to leave us poorer, so the poorest will suffer the most. We know we could have austerity. not for a few more years, but for decades if we leave - likely for generations if we crash out!.

Leaving will cost thousands of jobs (millions if we leave with no deal), cost us our NHS - so cost lives!. Cost us our environmental protections, health & safety rights, food safety regulations, animal welfare standards, our reputation, our democracy, our freedom of movement. And quite possibly peace in Northern Ireland!

The costs of leaving will be astronomical & for no tangible gain. Nothing like cutting our noses off to spite our face. No wonder the world is laughing at our foolishness.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Our reputation is tatters thanks to the duplicitous tories. Who'd have thunk it?

Dutch eurocrat: "_This is the most boring crisis ever... It just goes on and on and on, about the same thing. And, you know, the British reputation will be ruined for decades - like France in the 1980s. That will be the UK. You can see it happening already"_
_
*'The damage is done': Disbelief in Europe at another lost Brexit week*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ther-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker_


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 397103


Hahahaa

How embarrassing

Seen these KK?:Hilarious

*Led By Donkeys*‏:_ Watch to the end, sound on. It's just tragic_ #MarchToLeave


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106947553294196737

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107025888946909184
.........


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


We should remember that these figures are not calculated on the basis of GDP reduction / jobs lost in the immediate period after Brexit. They are estimates of what will not be created in the 5 years (from memory; correct me if I'm wrong) after we leave. I.e. as with all these things we won't necessarily crash compared to what we have now, but we will be worse compared to what we would have had if we had stayed.

Having said that, the No Deal scenario would, I think, see reductions on current levels because the economic shock would be so considerable. Personally, I don't think there is any doubt that some companies would go under, and others would simply leave the UK.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> "Strongly suspect" isn't really enough to persuade skint brexiteers to change their vote second time round though is it? They will need facts. eg this is roughly what it cost each U.K. tax payer and this is what they get for the money. *If it can't be done*, or the money is seen to support the wealthy and bureaucracy, it's another nail in the coffin isn't it. This is the problem. Forget immigration and racists and far right politics, that's just minority extremism, the Eu is it's own worst enemy imo. However much a mess our government has or hasn't made of leaving it, the Eu is still the Eu.


The gains from our EU membership cannot be empirically proven, but they do have sound economic theory behind them. The trouble is, of course, that anyone can say "Rubbish! Prove it!" and depending on one's point of view that will bring nods and dismissal of the "so-called experts" of whom we have had enough.

E.g. removal of (just about) all trade barriers within the single market increased the competition between companies who wanted to sell into it. In order to survive and prosper, UK companies (as others) would have had to innovate and become more efficient. How much do we allow in our calculations of EU membership benefits for that efficiency improvement? What improvements would there have been _without_ EU membership? Logically there is a positive effect there, but it is impossible to quantify exactly, and, with so many factors involved, is open to the "Rubbish!" response.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The gains from our EU membership cannot be empirically proven, but they do have sound economic theory behind them. The trouble is, of course, that anyone can say "Rubbish! Prove it!" and depending on one's point of view that will bring nods and dismissal of the "so-called experts" of whom we have had enough.
> 
> E.g. removal of (just about) all trade barriers within the single market increased the competition between companies who wanted to sell into it. In order to survive and prosper, UK companies (as others) would have had to innovate and become more efficient. How much do we allow in our calculations of EU membership benefits for that efficiency improvement? What improvements would there have been _without_ EU membership? Logically there is a positive effect there, but it is impossible to quantify exactly, and, with so many factors involved, is open to the "Rubbish!" response.


There you go lol. That's the point I'm trying to make when everyone keeps saying we are more informed than we were 3 years ago and hence think we will vote to stay in. Pro or against most seem to think the Eu isn't good enough. Pro think we can improve it by staying in and the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Against think we can't and can demonstrate their view more easily. Same as.

So apart from old people dying and young people coming of voting age, nothing much has changed really. If we do have a second referendum, it's a lot of tax payer's money being spent on something the government has already been told to do and even many Eu supporters in the general public seem to think that's not right.

If they all vote leave too, it will be very bad for our government and democratic process. The system will probably have to undergo a huge upheaval and change and force a GE under new rules to restore any semblance of confidence. Between that and money spent on a second vote we will have to tighten our belts won't we.

Seems spending money on that kind of thing is fine though, we can forget the nhs and the poor then, because there's a sliver of hope that people might vote to stay in. Even if they do, it won't last and the eusceptics will then have the moral high ground and even more money will be spent going through it all over again imo.


----------



## Elles

The most annoying thing for me is where were the Greens, the Lib Dems, independents and Labour when the Conservatives said they wanted the referendum? Why weren’t they asking pertinent questions then? The government and civil service should have been prepared for a leave scenario and ready to set the wheels in motion, and our elected representatives on all sides should have tried to make as sure of that as they could, before they voted ‘yes let’s have one’. We have been let down by all of them.


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> This is what the brexit unicorn turned out to be


Oh Noush, I nearly spat my drink on my laptop! That seems about right to me!

I see another cat man has been banned. No relation to the previous one, I'm sure......


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> There you go lol. That's the point I'm trying to make when everyone keeps saying we are more informed than we were 3 years ago ...


Is there going to be £350 million per week suddenly available for the NHS when we leave? No. That is more information.

Are we going to get the exact same benefits after we leave as when we were members? No. That is more information.

Is there going to be a £39 billion divorce bill? Yes. That is more information.

etc etc. We are, by any sensible definition, more informed than we were 3 years ago.

Are there still some unquantifiables? Yes. Of course. We're talking about the future and about necessarily inexact sciences. There will always be incomplete information when anyone is saying anything about the future. We know we'll be worse off - because the costs of business will increase - but we don't _know_ by how much because there are many variables.



Elles said:


> ... and hence think we will vote to stay in.


And for the umpteenth time, I don't think the unarguably increased amount of information will lead to the People voting to stay in the EU. But I do think that an informed vote is required to satisfy the requirements of democracy. The 2016 referendum was an appalling example of democracy in action, despite the claims of the winning side.

The costs of that referendum would be a minute fraction of the amount the government have already spent bribing the DUP.


----------



## Elles

I’ve been reading up on the backstop and the Irish border and why so many are against it.

They say that there is no need for a hard border in Ireland. Goods and commodities being exported to Eu countries can be checked and tested elsewhere as they are now, with an agreement that goods sent to the Eu comply with Eu standards and rules. The U.K. government have said they won’t implement a hard border, or checks on goods from the Eu at the actual border in Ireland. The Eu could agree to the same and have checks on compliance elsewhere in the U.K. and Europe. Have I understood this right and if so what is the problem?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Is there going to be £350 million per week suddenly available for the NHS when we leave? No. That is more information.
> 
> Are we going to get the exact same benefits after we leave as when we were members? No. That is more information.
> 
> Is there going to be a £39 billion divorce bill? Yes. That is more information.
> 
> etc etc. We are, by any sensible definition, more informed than we were 3 years ago.
> 
> Are there still some unquantifiables? Yes. Of course. We're talking about the future and about necessarily inexact sciences. There will always be incomplete information when anyone is saying anything about the future. We know we'll be worse off - because the costs of business will increase - but we don't _know_ by how much because there are many variables.
> 
> And for the umpteenth time, I don't think the unarguably increased amount of information will lead to the People voting to stay in the EU. But I do think that an informed vote is required to satisfy the requirements of democracy. The 2016 referendum was an appalling example of democracy in action, despite the claims of the winning side.
> 
> The costs of that referendum would be a minute fraction of the amount the government have already spent bribing the DUP.


I agree that the government have spent enough money as it is. Many people don't agree that we need a second referendum to satisfy the requirements of democracy, people on both sides of the debate. I expect despite that, if there is a vote on whether we should have one, remain politicians currently saying they are against it will change their minds.


----------



## Happy Paws2

After talks with the DUP this weekend, I'm wondering how much more money she has promised them to get their support for her deal.


----------



## Elles

Nhs spending by this government.

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/


----------



## Elles

Not so long ago we thought flights would be grounded, especially in the event of no deal. That’s no longer true either. We will still continue to trade with the Eu.


----------



## KittenKong

This made me laugh out loud, especially being brought up on 'The Blaydon Races'.









:Hilarious


----------



## emmaviolet

Happy Paws said:


> After talks with the DUP this weekend, I'm wondering how much more money she has promised them to get their support for her deal.


It's funny they can always find the money to keep her in power or for this,meanwhile carers are on a benefit freeze still, until next year as there isn't the money....


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> It's funny they can always find the money to keep her in power or for this,meanwhile carers are on a benefit freeze still, until next year as there isn't the money....


Indeed. The silence to this corruption is deafening.

Imagine if a Labour PM did this? They'd be up in arms.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 397136


Apparently Remainers can't count to more than 10!

https://www.france24.com/en/20190316-nigel-farage-400-km-pro-brexit-march-sets-sunderland-london

*Nigel Farage's 400km pro-Brexit march sets off from Sunderland to London*


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I agree that the government have spent enough money as it is. Many people don't agree that we need a second referendum to satisfy the requirements of democracy, people on both sides of the debate. I expect despite that, if there is a vote on whether we should have one, remain politicians currently saying they are against it will change their minds.


Don't ya know that Remainers only love democracy when the vote goes their way!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Don't ya know that Remainers only love democracy when the vote goes their way!


Don't you know that Theresa May only loves democracy when the vote goes her way, which is why she's calling on a third vote on her detested deal next week?

The, "We won, you lost, Get over it", sound bite is getting a bit old hat, especially now the lies, cheating and illegal activities to ensure a leave victory are now well known.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Don't ya know that Remainers only love democracy when the vote goes their way!


Is that aimed at me?

If so, I would dispute the words, and wonder where you think I have acted in the manner depicted?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Is that aimed at me?
> 
> If so, I would dispute the words, and wonder where you think I have acted in the manner depicted?


No. Why would it be?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Don't you know that Theresa May only loves democracy when the vote goes her way, which is why she's calling on a third vote on her detested deal next week?
> 
> The, "We won, you lost, Get over it", sound bite is getting a bit old hat, especially now the lies, cheating and illegal activities to ensure a leave victory are now well known.
> 
> View attachment 397149


https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...-dup-about-political-reassurance-not-funding/

*Hammond: Talks with DUP about 'political reassurance' not funding*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> -Ha*mmond: Talks with DUP about 'political reassurance' not funding*


Source-BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Don't ya know that Remainers only love democracy when the vote goes their way!


Now that's uncalled, and if it's aimed at me you should be ashamed of yourself:Rage


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Now that's uncalled, and if it's aimed at me you should be ashamed of yourself:Rage[/QUOTE
> 
> Why should I single you out?
> 
> There's no need to suffer from righteous indignation!
> 
> It was a comment about Remainers in general not a comment directed at anyone in particular!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I've been reading up on the backstop and the Irish border and why so many are against it.
> 
> They say that there is no need for a hard border in Ireland. Goods and commodities being exported to Eu countries can be checked and tested elsewhere as they are now, with an agreement that goods sent to the Eu comply with Eu standards and rules. The U.K. government have said they won't implement a hard border, or checks on goods from the Eu at the actual border in Ireland. The Eu could agree to the same and have checks on compliance elsewhere in the U.K. and Europe. Have I understood this right and if so what is the problem?


The main problem seems to be that while technology can make things easier, there is currently nothing that will eliminate the need for checks completely.

This is from last June, but is a good exploration of the issue ...

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

ETA And this is from last month ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993


----------



## Mrs.Zee

I can start understanding why is it so hard to understand what the leavers actually want. Not long ago on this thread some leavers claimed that the reason was not the money, as obviously leaving won´t financially benefit Britain, but that it was all about getting back control of the country, especially immigration. Got lots of support from other leavers too. Now the message is that immigration mattered only to the minority, and it is all about financial benefits. 

What makes this so really hard to understand is that for those, who want to control the amount of people moving in to Britain, you already can and have always been able to. Britain just chose to not do it, like most other EU countries. And if some one was thinking of right to control red tape, which is about consumer safety, environmental protection, workers rights, safety and decreasing tax frauds and tax havens, May has emphasized that in the future, the standards would be even higher. Nothing is stopping you increasing them now, by the way. Many EU countries do. Funny enough, May never said anything about tax havens .. So what is it that UK wants to control more? 

Another real puzzle is the idea that Brexit will benefit Britain financially at some point. So let me summarise and ask do I get this right: 

For two years not a single financial benefit has been found, no one has come up with how much the UK will gain. The only questions have been how much and for how long UK will lose. Business leaders (who are the experts of their own business, right) have very clearly expressed that no deal is a disaster, no single market very harmful and the more of the current deals UK can keep, the better for businesses. Ideally they say that the best option would be business as usual. I have lost count of the dozens and dozens of calculations of how much the UK will lose on different types of deals. The message has always been the same, though. The less changes, the less damage to Britain. The idea of Britain getting glorious trade deals that are much much better, has been proven wrong too by business, as they just want to keep the deals they have. They know very well how difficult it is to trade under WTO terms only. 

My question is: How many more calculations do you need and by whom? Or is it like it used be with tobacco industry, that if you don´t have to use facts, and you might get away with a lie, you can simply deny the evidence. Now, looking back at the tobacco industry we think how utterly irresponsible they were, but earlier many actually believed the tobacco industry and continued smoking. How many years did it take to get the message through and how many lives were lost in that time? Too long and too many, IMO. I really do hope the analogy will not be the same with Brexit. 

So I am at a loss, like EU. What is it that Britain wants? Why is the whole country held hostage by small minority of populist politicians and DUP? Why is Brexit full of contradictions and blatant lies and why do the messages keep changing? Above all, why do the British put up with this? No wonder no one still really knows what the different Brexit deals actually could mean and what the vote actually meant. But, hey, no need to stop and figure this all out, as the main culprit must be bad EU and Britain is just the innocent victim. We are just mean, not giving Britain what it really wants, which seems to be to stay but, somehow, get out as well, and to have hard borders, but to keep soft borders, to gain the control you always had, to order the EU what we should do, but not to be a member etc.


----------



## Satori

Mrs.Zee said:


> I can start understanding why is it so hard to understand what the leavers actually want.


Clue's in the name. We want to leave. If, after these three years of debate and after witnessing the behaviour of the EU since the referendum, you can't understand why then any further attempt at explanation will be wasted on you.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Why should I single you out?
> 
> There's no need to suffer from righteous indignation!
> 
> It was a comment about Remainers in general not a comment directed at anyone in particular!


I'm just sick of all the nastiness and all the insults been thrown our way. You have won can't you be happy with that, what ever happens we have to put up with it.


----------



## Elles

Does the Eu rely on the honesty of manufacturers in the Eu? What I read is that, just as today, there should be no need for physical checks at a border in NI. The Eu have to want it and, just as we now have an agreement to keep planes flying in the event of "no deal" there could be an agreement to keep goods compliance checked and moving, without stopping every lorry at Dover, or building a wall across Ireland.

No deal isn't really possible, we already have deals in place in case there is "no deal", so no deal becomes less of a no deal with each passing day.

I started to read Mrs Zee's post, but as I haven't read leave voters on petforums saying they voted not for the money, but to stop immigration, with other leave voters supporting them, I stopped there. I haven't read leave voters saying it's obvious that Britain won't benefit financially either. Or vice versa. Tbh I'm not 100% sure who did vote leave, most of the discussion seems to have moved on to what's happening today regardless of vote 3 years ago. I voted remain despite misgivings over the Eu, @Magyarmum didnt vote at all, because she wasn't given the vote. @rona may have voted leave and @Satori. Not sure who's left. I think Remainers outnumber brexiteers here, though I have a couple of them on ignore.

I wouldn't be too sure that brexiteers have won though @Happy Paws .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> I'm just sick of all the nastiness and all the insults been thrown our way. You have won can't you be happy with that, what ever happens we have to put up with it.


No one won but ERG, Putin and Trump.
Sunderland voted Leave right?

Welsh farmers? Some life winners indeed!

Those Leave voters from sinkhole estates who just voted for change out of sheer desperation will have the change all right... if they thought things cannot be worse...

East Hull... Sunderland... so on.... 
Made believe it is EU to blame for the abandoned North East...


----------



## Mrs.Zee

Satori said:


> Clue's in the name. We want to leave. If, after these three years of debate and after witnessing the behaviour of the EU since the referendum, you can't understand why then any further attempt at explanation will be wasted on you.


And we are supposed to read your minds and create a deal that would suit you so that you can leave, right? As as still no other clue that just we want to leave. But not without a deal, nor with a deal you made nor with any other way, as any concrete deal you create will be wasted on us. Great negotiation tactic by the way. I´m sure you will get anything you want that way too. Whatever that is, naturally, as why say it aloud and waste it. But thanks, you proved my point. Blame EU for everything and do not come up with any clarification what is it that leavers want. No wonder then there is a bit of confusion around and patience is running a bit thin both in Britain and in EU. Why the rudeness, by the way? Do you think being that rude actually helps your case? Why not just say what is it that you want? Unless, you really have nothing else to say?



Elles said:


> I started to read Mrs Zee's post, but as I haven't read leave voters on petforums saying they voted not for the money, but to stop immigration, with other leave voters supporting them, I stopped there. I haven't read leave voters saying it's obvious that Britain won't benefit financially either. Or vice versa. Tbh I'm not 100% sure who did vote leave, most of the discussion seems to have moved on to what's happening today regardless of vote 3 years ago. I voted remain despite misgivings over the Eu, @Magyarmum didnt vote at all, because she wasn't given the vote. @rona may have voted leave and @Satori. Not sure who's left. I think Remainers outnumber brexiteers here, though I have a couple of them on ignore.
> .


Some leavers (not you) did actually say a few pages back that British should be happy to pay a bit to get their freedom back and that did likes by many ( I can´t remember by whom. But I could try to dig it out for you, as that idea was not supported by you, right? I think it was around the time WW 2 and Calais was talked about too to compare the hardships that Brexit might cause with the hardships you had then- But yes, some leavers did say that now Britain could take back control and suffering financially wasn´t that important. (not all, only some). He (I assume it was he) also made a point about that it was obvious that there will be some financial losses. Not the words exactly, but the message was that. I think it was the person, who was really strongly against EU and made several comments about floods of immigrants. I remember that as that was so extreme. Again, not you @Elles. And by leavers I mean those, who at the moment, have openly said that they support Brexit, not the original voters.

But still, I am waiting examples of financial benefits of Brexit, as I agree with you there, that is what matters most to ordinary people. I´m also sure that people at least on PF know that Britain has always been in control of it´s immigration, so that can´t be the reason to leave. But I am really puzzled about the reasons for leaving and I do blame the politicians for that, (not the people, who voted leave.). Most people just want better Britain for all, I am sure. Now everybody id very confused about what is happening and what will happen. No wonder, as when you look at what is happening with May & co, Brexit is full of contradictions, yes and nos for the same thing. I really don´t have a clue any more. At least in the beginning there were lots of promises. All empty, but then people didn´t know that. Now there is nothing. You all must have a patience of a saint, as we´d be on the streets by now.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Does the Eu rely on the honesty of manufacturers in the Eu? What I read is that, just as today, there should be no need for physical checks at a border in NI. The Eu have to want it and, just as we now have an agreement to keep planes flying in the event of "no deal" there could be an agreement to keep goods compliance checked and moving, without stopping every lorry at Dover, or building a wall across Ireland.


So your idea for adequate border control is just to trust everybody?


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Clue's in the name. We want to leave. If, after these three years of debate and after witnessing the behaviour of the EU since the referendum, you can't understand why then any further attempt at explanation will be wasted on you.


How has the EU behaved since 2016 that has upset you? Do you have examples?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> So your idea for adequate border control is just to trust everybody?


No, the opposite. Manufacturers in the Eu aren't trusted now. They have to pass various tests and get the relevant paperwork. If they don't it could be picked up in a spot check, whistleblower, industry tests, end user, government tests etc. All this is already in place. It doesn't need double checking by officials standing by a fence in the middle of Ireland.


----------



## Arnie83

Mrs.Zee said:


> And we are supposed to read your minds and create a deal that would suit you so that you can leave, right? *As as still no other clue that just we want to leave.* But not without a deal, nor with a deal you made nor with any other way, as any concrete deal you create will be wasted on us. Great negotiation tactic by the way. I´m sure you will get anything you want that way too. Whatever that is, naturally, as why say it aloud and waste it. But thanks, you proved my point. Blame EU for everything and do not come up with any clarification what is it that leavers want. No wonder then there is a bit of confusion around and patience is running a bit thin both in Britain and in EU. Why the rudeness, by the way? Do you think being that rude actually helps your case? Why not just say what is it that you want? Unless, you really have nothing else to say?


It seems we - actually I think I'll make the UK 'they' now - want the exact same benefits as they've got now, with frictionless trade, no tariffs, no quotas, no border checks, but with the freedom to make our own rules on production and input standards, including on foodstuffs, on state aid (otherwise known as protectionism), plus the ability to agree their own trade deals with other countries, unless they're not as good as the ones they've already got through the EU, in which case they'll keep those.

And if these demands aren't granted, it's just proof that the EU is unreasonable / inflexible / a bunch of bullies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> It seems we - actually I think I'll make the UK 'they' now - want the exact same benefits as they've got now, with frictionless trade, no tariffs, no quotas, no border checks, but with the freedom to make our own rules on production and input standards, including on foodstuffs, on state aid (otherwise known as protectionism), plus the ability to agree their own trade deals with other countries, unless they're not as good as the ones they've already got through the EU, in which case they'll keep those.
> 
> And if these demands aren't granted, it's just proof that the EU is unreasonable / inflexible / a bunch of bullies.


Basically we Britain the Greater want a unilateral unicorn and them EU do not give it to us!!!
Bullies!!!


----------



## Elles

We can have tariffs, quotas etc without border checks on everything. They already exist. Manufacturers of some produce already have to comply to quite strict regulations and even quotas and most employ experts to ensure they do. Some have no choice but to employ qualified experts.

Like TUV and ISO

https://www.tuv.com/world/en/compliance-management.html


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No, the opposite. Manufacturers in the Eu aren't trusted now. They have to pass various tests and get the relevant paperwork. If they don't it could be picked up in a spot check, whistleblower, industry tests, end user, government tests etc. All this is already in place. It doesn't need double checking by officials standing by a fence in the middle of Ireland.


The rules of manufacture and standards in the EU are standard across the whole of the EU and are under the control of the relevant countries. If a third country - i.e. the UK - has different rules then checks have to be carried out before the goods are allowed into the EU. That means a border. Whether it is actually on the exact border or a mile before it is pretty irrelevant; it's still a border.

Number-plate recognition requires cameras - or as they are also known, targets.

Trucks can have their manifestos pre-cleared, but no technology can check that a truck actually has inside it the goods that were pre-cleared.

*It's not just the EU. Nice - and convenient - though it is to blame them, nowhere in the world has the sort of non-infrastructure border that you seem to think is in the EU's gift if they were only reasonable about it.* Yet it would be so much simpler and cheaper and good for trade. If it was possible, don't you think it would actually be in place somewhere? Anywhere?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The rules of manufacture and standards in the EU are standard across the whole of the EU and are under the control of the relevant countries. If a third country - i.e. the UK - has different rules then checks have to be carried out before the goods are allowed into the EU. That means a border. Whether it is actually on the exact border or a mile before it is pretty irrelevant; it's still a border.
> 
> Number-plate recognition requires cameras - or as they are also known, targets.
> 
> Trucks can have their manifestos pre-cleared, but no technology can check that a truck actually has inside it the goods that were pre-cleared.
> 
> *It's not just the EU. Nice - and convenient - though it is to blame them, nowhere in the world has the sort of non-infrastructure border that you seem to think is in the EU's gift if they were only reasonable about it.* Yet it would be so much simpler and cheaper and good for trade. If it was possible, don't you think it would actually be in place somewhere? Anywhere?


Nowhere in the world has left a trading bloc before. The U.K. is already compliant and nothing is checked down to the last pin at a border. You think a manufacturer is going to get his goods checked, loaded onto a lorry, then unloaded and the lorry piled full of cocaine and illegal immigrants? What stops them doing that now?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Basically we Britain the Greater want a unilateral unicorn and them EU do not give it to us!!!
> Bullies!!!


No, the U.K. have offered it unilaterally. Ie the U.K. will not install a border in Ireland to check and restrict Eu goods. Most goods will still have no tariffs. There's a list of what our government intend in the case of "no deal", which isn't no deal at all of course.


----------



## Elles

Can we just agree that these are people? The Eu is a collective of people. Our government is a collective of people. All are responsible for rules, regulations and laws, which can be adjusted, changed altogether, tweaked, or strictly followed to the letter. Sometimes I think we forget that they’re all human.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

_Could _break the rules?
Never in my lifetime have I experienced a government that uses taxpayer's money to bribe another party for their support and votes.

To the best of my knowledge even the Lib Dems weren't even bribed money to support an earlier Tory administration for their support. Clegg was a willing partner of course but that's beside the point.

Regardless of political beliefs does anyone actually think this is right?









https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47605127?SThisFB


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> No. Why would it be?


 I didn't think it was directed at _anyone in particular_ . . . tho' there _are_ very many posts on this thread which need a 'tag' as it's nigh on impossible to work out at whom they are directed.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 397213


 I absolutely loved this, especially where the Black Knight, bobbing around with no arms or legs said: 'Tis but a flesh wound, Sire'. Then they decided to ''call it a draw''.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> I'm just sick of all the nastiness and all the insults been thrown our way. You have won can't you be happy with that, what ever happens we have to put up with it.


 Any nastiness, tho', is definitely not confined to posts written by leavers. I have just TWO people on ignore, both from this thread and both remainers; simply because I did not appreciate being spoken down to as tho' I am a brain-dead, half-witted buffoon. At least you don't talk down to people, @Happy Paws.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I didn't think it was directed at _anyone in particular_ . . . tho' there _are_ very many posts on this thread which need a 'tag' as it's nigh on impossible to work out at whom they are directed.


It wasn't directed at anyone particular, had it been I would have "quoted" them as I normally do when I'm commenting on another member's post.

Normally the only exception is when I post articles I've found which I think might be interesting to others.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Does the Eu rely on the honesty of manufacturers in the Eu? What I read is that, just as today, there should be no need for physical checks at a border in NI. The Eu have to want it and, just as we now have an agreement to keep planes flying in the event of "no deal" there could be an agreement to keep goods compliance checked and moving, without stopping every lorry at Dover, or building a wall across Ireland


I believe the most painless method of achieving that would be called 'Staying in the Customs Union'

If we don't, the EU have to treat us exactly the same as any other nation with which they don't have any such agreements. On our side, in the event of a no deal scenario we wouldn't be able to waive customs checks for EU nations but still have them for other nations, as that would break the Most Favoured Nation WTO rule.

Ireland is a headache because a lot of goods produced in Ireland cross the border in various forms two or three times (or more) during the course of production. If we don't have a customs agreement with the EU, then there have to be checks. If we drop customs checks with everyone, then the EU will still have to implement them as they can no longer assume goods exported from the UK meet EU standards. As I understand it anyway.

And I believe the EU compliant pallet problem still hasn't been resolved...


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. The silence to this corruption is deafening.
> 
> Imagine if a Labour PM did this? They'd be up in arms.


And can you imagine what that money could do for people like those living on the streets? They don't get anything like that kind of money.
I really cannot fathom it that she can use this money to prop herself up in power.


----------



## Elles

As I said, the Eu is people. The WTO is people too. Our leaving the Eu is unprecedented. The only thing preventing rules being adjusted, or rewritten, or new agreements made, especially wrt to Ireland, are the the people who make the rules. They don't seem to think it's important enough this time, because it's our fault for voting to leave.

As @Arnie83 seemed to agree, goods don't need to be checked at a border in the middle of Ireland. So far as I'm aware there is nowhere in the Eu where everything coming from outside it has to be checked down to the last lorry stud, before it crosses onto their land. There is usually a paper trail, buyers, sellers, orders. Companies don't load lorries, ships and planes and set them off with no idea where they're going or what happens to the produce on them, or the produce they're picking up. There can be tariffs and customs and compliance orders without an official, uniformed person, manually checking everything. There already are. The Eu and the U.K. have been importing and exporting world wide with various rules and regulations on all kinds of produce for hundreds of years, but suddenly it's too difficult?



Calvine said:


> Any nastiness, tho', is definitely not confined to posts written by leavers. I have just TWO people on ignore, both from this thread and both leavers; simply because I did not appreciate being spoken down to as tho' I am a brain-dead, half-witted buffoon. At least you don't talk down to people, @Happy Paws.


I have two people on ignore too, but they aren't leavers.  I expect you meant Remainers @Calvine ?


----------



## Elles

Just another point. For many countries within the Eu, freedom of movement of goods and commodities seem acceptable, but freedom of movement of labour and the way live animals are included as goods seems to be a sticking point. Maybe it needs looking at.


----------



## Calvine

[QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065404534, member: 1291226"  I expect you meant Remainers @Calvine ?[/QUOTE]

Indeed I did; thank you!


----------



## KittenKong

If true she'll either postpone any more votes on her deal, or agree to this to get her deal pass then refuse to resign.

More likely the latter seeing they can't touch her 'til December I reckon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1552858680


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Any nastiness, tho', is definitely not confined to posts written by leavers. I have just TWO people on ignore, both from this thread and both remainers; simply because I did not appreciate being spoken down to as tho' I am a brain-dead, half-witted buffoon. *At least you don't talk down to people,* @Happy Paws.


I know I sometime get really annoyed, but I do try to respect both sides if I agree or not.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> It wasn't directed at anyone particular, had it been I would have "quoted" them as I normally do when I'm commenting on another member's post.


Sometimes there is a whole succession of posts from the same poster (especially if you have two on 'ignore' so you are missing a few) and it's difficult to tell which of the posts refers to which previous post (unless one has the time to trawl thro' pages and pages).


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Sometimes there is a whole succession of posts from the same poster (especially if you have two on 'ignore' so you are missing a few) and it's difficult to tell which of the posts refers to which previous post (unless one has the time to trawl thro' pages and pages).


I have the time, but I don't have the inclination lol.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> I do try to respect both sides if I agree or not.


Yes; that is clear from the way you reply to posts.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> I believe the most painless method of achieving that would be called 'Staying in the Customs Union'
> 
> If we don't, the EU have to treat us exactly the same as any other nation with which they don't have any such agreements. On our side, in the event of a no deal scenario we wouldn't be able to waive customs checks for EU nations but still have them for other nations, as that would break the Most Favoured Nation WTO rule.
> 
> Ireland is a headache because a lot of goods produced in Ireland cross the border in various forms two or three times (or more) during the course of production. If we don't have a customs agreement with the EU, then there have to be checks. If we drop customs checks with everyone, then the EU will still have to implement them as they can no longer assume goods exported from the UK meet EU standards. As I understand it anyway.
> 
> And I believe the EU compliant pallet problem still hasn't been resolved...


What has seriously backfired is the ROI's refusal to leave the EU and to join the UK many Brexit supporters predicted would happen.

"Taking back control of our borders", must mean a border between NI and the ROI. That should have been made clear during the 2016 referendum campaign.

But if the truth was told they probably would have lost.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Sometimes there is a whole succession of posts from the same poster (especially if you have two on 'ignore' so you are missing a few) and it's difficult to tell which of the posts refers to which previous post (unless one has the time to trawl thro' pages and pages).


and they are saying the same things over and over again just in another way drives me mad.


----------



## Elles

The Eu is changing. I just wish it had streamlined and changed a bit faster, so we didn’t have all this. It’s going to go on for years and years and years regardless of what happens in the next couple of weeks. Are we still leaving in a couple of weeks, or have they confirmed we aren’t yet? It’s really hard to keep up.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> The Eu is changing. I just wish it had streamlined and changed a bit faster, so we didn't have all this. It's going to go on for years and years and years regardless of what happens in the next couple of weeks. *Are we still leaving in a couple of weeks,* or have they confirmed we aren't yet? It's really hard to keep up.


I don't think anyone knows not even TM, the whole thing is a mess, and you can't blame the EU for what is happening.

She signed the agreement, so why should they change anything just to please her and try to get it though Parliament.

Sorry lady no chance.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think anyone knows not even TM, the whole thing is a mess, and you can't blame the EU for what is happening.
> 
> She signed the agreement, so why should they change anything just to please her and try to get it though Parliament.
> 
> Sorry lady no chance.


She signed the agreement, the Eu signed the agreement, we have an agreement. Yay. Oops.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Nowhere in the world has left a trading bloc before. The U.K. is already compliant and nothing is checked down to the last pin at a border. You think a manufacturer is going to get his goods checked, loaded onto a lorry, then unloaded and the lorry piled full of cocaine and illegal immigrants? What stops them doing that now?


By leaving we are becoming a 'third nation' like any other outside the single market and customs union, though we expect special treatment.

It's not checking to the last pin that is the problem, it's whether there are any checks at all. Currently there is no need for any check, including for illegal immigrants because the Irish / N Irish border is not the EU border. After the UK leaves it will be.

And the UK is leaving with the intention of diverting from EU rules. So although on day 1 the UK will remain compliant, on day 2 and thereafter there is no guarantee that they will. Checks will then become necessary. It is currently technically impossible to control a border without physical infrastructure, which is why no country in the world does it. Not even Norway / Sweden or France / Switzerland, and both Norway and Switzerland are closer to the single market than the UK intends to be.



Elles said:


> No, the U.K. have offered it unilaterally. Ie the U.K. will not install a border in Ireland to check and restrict Eu goods. Most goods will still have no tariffs. There's a list of what our government intend in the case of "no deal", which isn't no deal at all of course.


As @Jesthar points out, the UK offer of unilateral freedom of movement with no tariffs, customs or checks has to apply to every WTO member if they make it to the EU. It's the rules. Of course we could leave the WTO as well ...


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> She signed the agreement, the Eu signed the agreement, we have an agreement. Yay. Oops.


Yes, but the EU don't want to change it, it's our barmy lot that keep trying to move the goal posts


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> As I said, the Eu is people. The WTO is people too. Our leaving the Eu is unprecedented. The only thing preventing rules being adjusted, or rewritten, or new agreements made, especially wrt to Ireland, are the the people who make the rules. They don't seem to think it's important enough this time, because it's our fault for voting to leave.


Hey, it's hard enough to get a group of like minded individuals to agree on things! Getting over two dozen countries (or over 100 in the WTO) with disparate aspirations and desires to agree to sweeping rule changes (especially that doesn't really involve/benefit them) is never going to happen quickly; you're talking months and years of delicate negotiations...



Elles said:


> As @Arnie83 seemed to agree, goods don't need to be checked at a border in the middle of Ireland. So far as I'm aware there is nowhere in the Eu where everything coming from outside it has to be checked down to the last lorry stud, before it crosses onto their land. *There is usually a paper trail, buyers, sellers, orders. Companies don't load lorries, ships and planes and set them off with no idea where they're going or what happens to the produce on them, or the produce they're picking up. There can be tariffs and customs and compliance orders without an official, uniformed person, manually checking everything. There already are. The Eu and the U.K. have been importing and exporting world wide with various rules and regulations on all kinds of produce for hundreds of years, but suddenly it's too difficult?*


Yes, there is always a paper trail. However, within the EU, goods containers/lorries from other EU countries are waved through with little or no delay due to the internal frictionless trade setup.

Now, under No Deal, or any other Brexit scenario that doesn't involve a frictionless trade agree ment, we revert to following third party country rules. That involves a whole lot of extra paperwork we currently don't have to do (declarations, certificates demonstrating compliance testing with EU standards, duty, proof of origin etc.), which can take several days to arrange (or even weeks for certain kinds of compliance testing) and are going to cause a heck of a lot of confusion for a while due to the unfamiliarity of it all. The extra cost of it all may well put some companies off importing to the UK, I suspect.

In addition, trucks loaded with EU origin goods bound for the UK that can, for example, currently drive straight off a cross-channel ferry and seamlessly continue their journeys by road, will instead need to wait while customs agents check all that paperwork and (in a worst case scenario), physically inspect their cargo.

If the paperwork is wrong, then the cargo will be help until the correct paperwork can be supplied and verified. In this case, storage fees apply, and possibly other penalties.

If memory serves, that takes an average of 20 minutes per truck currently for non-EU imports - assuming everything is in order, of course. It's not unreasonable to assume that EU inbound lorries would take about the same time in the event of no frictionless trade agreement or a no deal.

Outward bound towards the EU is slightly different, clearing a lorry for entry to the EU usually takes abut 2 minutes. Most estimates are that would double to 4-5 minutes (again assuming the paperwork is in order), which doesn't sound like a lot but soon adds up. Add in that we don't have even a fraction of the infrastructure and staff to implement what is needed to comply with the legislation in a efficient fashion, and it's easy to see why there are emergency options such as turning motorways into lorry parks being considered. So hopefully saner heads will prevail and it won't come to that!


----------



## Elles

Our government have said they will not be checking goods from the Eu at the border and have designed new compliance rules to get around it from what I read.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Our government have said they will not be checking goods from the Eu at the border and have designed new compliance rules to get around it from what I read.


Where did you read this? Have you a link?

And what are they going to do about WTO MFN rules?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Our government have said they will not be checking goods from the Eu at the border and have designed new compliance rules to get around it from what I read.


I think we'd have to leave with some sort of a deal to do that. In a No Deal scenario, that could well hit a problem under the Most Favoured Nation WTO rules.


----------



## emmaviolet

Calvine said:


> Any nastiness, tho', is definitely not confined to posts written by leavers. I have just TWO people on ignore, both from this thread and both remainers; simply because I did not appreciate being spoken down to as tho' I am a brain-dead, half-witted buffoon. At least you don't talk down to people, @Happy Paws.


Ironic though, I believe you told me you was putting me on ignore, however you spoke to me as though I was a halfwit for mentioning unicorns on a political thread. Ironic when it's mentioned non stop in the Brexit debate. You was acting as though I were a fool to even say the word. So it's not just one side.

You most likely won't see this though.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Where did you read this? Have you a link?
> 
> And what are they going to do about WTO MFN rules?


Something to do with compliance. In the case of no deal, we'll have to get products checked for CE in an Eu country, not the U.K., but although they're talking about bringing in a U.K. compliance tests, they'll be the same as the Eu ones and U.K. companies doing ce testing now will do the new U.K. one instead.

The government I was sure said that because of this, it would be different for Eu compliant goods over WTO imports and there wouldn't need to be the same checks on Eu goods. That the U.K. wouldn't be doing the same physical border checks. If the Eu want to they'll be the ones installing and running it, we will be able to accept Eu compliant goods as they will comply with our own. I think I followed a link from here, but who knows, maybe it was one of those unicorns. People say we're better informed.. I haven't got a clue any more.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Something to do with compliance. In the case of no deal, we'll have to get products checked for CE in an Eu country, not the U.K., but although they're talking about bringing in a U.K. compliance tests, they'll be the same as the Eu ones and U.K. companies doing ce testing now will do the new U.K. one instead.
> 
> The government I was sure said that because of this, it would be different for Eu compliant goods over WTO imports and there wouldn't need to be the same checks on Eu goods. That the U.K. wouldn't be doing the same physical border checks. If the Eu want to they'll be the ones installing and running it, we will be able to accept Eu compliant goods as they will comply with our own. I think I followed a link from here, but who knows, maybe it was one of those unicorns. People say we're better informed.. I haven't got a clue any more.


I admit that is not something I've heard or read. If you remember the source, bung it in here and I'll happily have a look.

I would say that we're most definitely better informed, but one of the things we've learned is how much there is to learn!


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> Ironic though, I believe you told me you was putting me on ignore, however you spoke to me as though I was a halfwit for mentioning unicorns on a political thread. Ironic when it's mentioned non stop in the Brexit debate. You was acting as though I were a fool to even say the word. So it's not just one side.
> 
> You most likely won't see this though.


"If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Something to do with compliance. In the case of no deal, we'll have to get products checked for CE in an Eu country, not the U.K., but although they're talking about bringing in a U.K. compliance tests, they'll be the same as the Eu ones and U.K. companies doing ce testing now will do the new U.K. one instead.
> 
> The government I was sure said that because of this, it would be different for Eu compliant goods over WTO imports and there wouldn't need to be the same checks on Eu goods. That the U.K. wouldn't be doing the same physical border checks. If the Eu want to they'll be the ones installing and running it, we will be able to accept Eu compliant goods as they will comply with our own. I think I followed a link from here, but who knows, maybe it was one of those unicorns. People say we're better informed.. I haven't got a clue any more.


Is this what you were thinking of?

https://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wp...ern-Ireland-and-the-Republic-of-Ireland-3.pdf

*The Border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland post-Brexit*


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> "If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"


Indeed, and THAT could apply to so many posters on both sides of the debate at some point it's probably best left there...


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> "If you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"


Exactly. So maybe people should stop saying how horrid one side is, when they themselves have been exactly as they described? I was condescended to for using a well used phrase as though I were a moron, an issue said poster also has an issue with.

Perhaps use your post on the above poster too, as they seem to love to keep saying how horrible the other side is and how many are on ignore?


----------



## noushka05

Sums up May & her corrupt nasty government.


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Is this what you were thinking of?
> 
> https://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wp...ern-Ireland-and-the-Republic-of-Ireland-3.pdf
> 
> *The Border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland post-Brexit*


It wasn't that, what I read was a lot more complicated and talking of the new U.K. compliance mark and not just Ireland, but I can't find it. I thought it was a relatively recent government publication advising on no deal brexit. I'm starting to think I imagined it lol.

We are a small manufacturer of replacement motor vehicle parts that have to meet strict standards world wide, so maybe it was something work got sent, thinking about it.


----------



## emmaviolet

Oh snap, Bercow won't allow her to just bring the same deal back again!

Not in this term anyway. The current term runs into summer.


----------



## Magyarmum

Breaking News from the HoC

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...live?page=with:block-5c8fbadfe4b0480f6c021661

*Brexit: Speaker John Bercow makes statement on new meaningful vote - Politics live*


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> Exactly. So maybe people should stop saying how horrid one side is, when they themselves have been exactly as they described? I was condescended to for using a well used phrase as though I were a moron, an issue said poster also has an issue with.
> 
> Perhaps use your post on the above poster too, as they seem to love to keep saying how horrible the other side is and how many are on ignore?


It's for everyone as @Jesthar mentioned. Getting a bit tired of the thread turning into a point scoring contest rather than a somewhat controlled debate which it has been for fleeting moments.

Not insinuating that it is only you or a certain side of the argument, but many are keen to believe that everything that they say is gospel and must be correct


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Oh snap, Bercow won't allow her to just bring the same deal back again!
> 
> Not in this term anyway. The current term runs into summer.





Magyarmum said:


> Breaking News from the HoC
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...live?page=with:block-5c8fbadfe4b0480f6c021661
> 
> *Brexit: Speaker John Bercow makes statement on new meaningful vote - Politics live*


On PF, I think the appropriate comment is that this puts the cat among the pigeons!


----------



## rona

Backing themselves into a corner aren't they?


----------



## Arnie83

Surely, if May wants to get her deal through, as it currently stands, she has to put it to the people, doesn't she? Unless she can persuade Bercow to change his mind, which doesn't seem likely, or get the EU to change the WA, which seems even less likely.

(It should be remembered that I've been wrong plenty of times before!)


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Surely, if May wants to get her deal through, as it currently stands, she has to put it to the people, doesn't she? Unless she can persuade Bercow to change his mind, which doesn't seem likely, or get the EU to change the WA, which seems even less likely.
> 
> (It should be remembered that I've been wrong plenty of times before!)


It'll be slaughtered by the people with all the negative press that it has had


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> Surely, if May wants to get her deal through, as it currently stands, she has to put it to the people, doesn't she? Unless she can persuade Bercow to change his mind, which doesn't seem likely, or get the EU to change the WA, which seems even less likely.
> 
> (It should be remembered that I've been wrong plenty of times before!)


I think her deal should go back to the people.

There was no true definition of what leaving meant entirely, hence a lot of brexiteers not liking this deal.


----------



## AlexPed2393

The problem with her deal going to the people is that it is not a complete document and how many voters would actually read the full document anyway? The deal can be spun to sound wonderful in a summary which most people would read and vote based on that.

That's why I am not keen on her deal going to the people


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> The problem with her deal going to the people is that it is not a complete document and how many voters would actually read the full document anyway? The deal can be spun to sound wonderful in a summary which most people would read and vote based on that.
> 
> That's why I am not keen on her deal going to the people


It's a lot more information compared with the original vote, and we were allowed a vote on that.

And of course there will be spin surrounding it, what's new? The whole referendum was based on lies anyway.


----------



## rona

AlexPed2393 said:


> That's why I am not keen on her deal going to the people


i don't mind it going to the people as long as staying in isn't an option (We've had that vote already) and no deal is an option


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> The problem with her deal going to the people is that it is not a complete document and how many voters would actually read the full document anyway? The deal can be spun to sound wonderful in a summary which most people would read and vote based on that.
> 
> That's why I am not keen on her deal going to the people


It would only be her Withdrawal Agreement on which the people would have a 'meaningful' vote. By which I mean that if the people voted for 'May's Deal' the UK would then be bound by what the WA says. By approving the political declaration (by default?) in the same vote (would depend on the question I guess) they would just be saying yes, go ahead and negotiate a future relationship.

If Bercow's ruling stands I honestly can't see another option. Parliament now cannot pass the WA unless the EU agrees to change it, because they won't get a chance*, and they've already ruled out a No Deal, and there's nothing else on the table. We go for a long extenstion to A50 and either come up with something completely new - and the Irish problem doesn't have anything new available - or ask the people what they want to do.

Or am I missing something?

* It could be that the government prorogue the Parliamentary session and start a new one so as to bring May's Deal back, but that is surely a step too far even for May!


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> i don't mind it going to the people as long as staying in isn't an option (We've had that vote already) and no deal is an option


I don't think you would get your wish.

As David Davis said, in a democracy people are allowed to change their minds. I still don't think they would, though.

And Parliament would approve the question/s, and Parliament don't want No Deal.


----------



## emmaviolet

I don't believe the public should be able to vote on a no deal. Every financial expert says that we'll be so much worse off, why would the government allow a vote that could potentially ruin the country?

And you know people would vote for it. JRM would say it's the best thing to do (as it makes HIM rich and us poorer) and people would turn into turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> It would only be her Withdrawal Agreement on which the people would have a 'meaningful' vote. By which I mean that if the people voted for 'May's Deal' the UK would then be bound by what the WA says. By approving the political declaration (by default?) in the same vote (would depend on the question I guess) they would just be saying yes, go ahead and negotiate a future relationship.
> 
> If Bercow's ruling stands I honestly can't see another option. Parliament now cannot pass the WA unless the EU agrees to change it, because they won't get a chance*, and they've already ruled out a No Deal, and there's nothing else on the table. We go for a long extenstion to A50 and either come up with something completely new - and the Irish problem doesn't have anything new available - or ask the people what they want to do.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> * It could be that the government prorogue the Parliamentary session and start a new one so as to bring May's Deal back, but that is surely a step too far even for May!


They will do whatever it takes and May Deal will be it.
DUP will be paid, others bought or bullied.
@rona farming will not survive No Deal, though possibly getting out of Customs Union will damage it beyond survival.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> It's a lot more information compared with the original vote, and we were allowed a vote on that.
> 
> And of course there will be spin surrounding it, what's new? The whole referendum was based on lies anyway.


It's a lot of information and wording that the majority will not fully understand, that is where the problem lies in giving it to the people to vote for. Then when put in laymans terms the spin can be put onto it.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> I don't believe the public should be able to vote on a no deal. Every financial expert says that we'll be so much worse off, why would the government allow a vote that could potentially ruin the country?
> 
> And you know people would vote for it. JRM would say it's the best thing to do (as it makes HIM rich and us poorer) and people would turn into turkeys voting for Christmas.


So the public can't vote on 'no deal' but they can vote on the intricacies of a deal?


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> So the public can't vote on 'no deal' but they can vote on the intricacies of a deal?


I know it's a touchy topic, and I can see the arguments both ways, but I agree with @emmaviolet

Parliament's job is to look at proposed laws in more depth than can the public and to make decisions on our behalf. With No Deal they have decided with a huge majority that it's a bad idea and would significantly damage their constituents. I think they would be quite right in excluding it from any further referendum should there be one.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> @rona farming will not survive No Deal, though possibly getting out of Customs Union will damage it beyond survival.


Odd how most farmers seem to want no deal. It's just the establishment, NFU, Defra etc that are scare mongering


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Parliament's job is to look at proposed laws in more depth than can the public and to make decisions on our behalf.


Good point overall, but on this token if we are looking at the whole deal then surely that is looking at the matter as deeply as possible without doing an MP's job for them.
Is a touchy issue as its hard to say you can vote on one thing but not another.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Particularly difficult when the MP isn't following the will of their constituent


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's a lot of information and wording that the majority will not fully understand, that is where the problem lies in giving it to the people to vote for. Then when put in laymans terms the spin can be put onto it.


That's where the problem lied giving it to the public in the first place.

It was a far too complex situation for us all to grasp what it meant. I know many argue the opposite, but just look at the mess our leaders have trying to implement it. It wasn't something we really should have had a vote on.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> Odd how most farmers seem to want no deal. It's just the establishment, NFU, Defra etc that are scare mongering


Where are the stats on the majority of farmers wanting a no deal?

From what I've seen officials concerned with farming want to avoid no deal at all costs.

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/brex...-deal-brexit-must-be-avoided-at-all-costs-uk/


----------



## emmaviolet

AlexPed2393 said:


> So the public can't vote on 'no deal' but they can vote on the intricacies of a deal?


Yes. No deal had been stated is dangerous for our country, it's the MP's and government's job to keep us safe, to allow people who don't fully understand the real ramifications of a no deal brexit a vote on getting it would be IMO insanity.

The deal, you have the document to read or not, if you choose not to, that's fine, but the real information is out there to read about it.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

rona said:


> Odd how most farmers seem to want no deal. It's just the establishment, NFU, Defra etc that are scare mongering


That's interesting, rona. From what I had been led to believe, Brexit/no deal would be a disaster for farming. This article about farmers in Devon seems to suggest otherwise, like you say. Do you think farmers countrywide are hoping for a no deal, or at least an actual Brexit?

Why Brexit could be good news for Britain's farmers


----------



## Jonescat

John Bercow seems to have truly thrown a cat among the pigeons!


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Odd how most farmers seem to want no deal. It's just the establishment, NFU, Defra etc that are scare mongering


 Very odd. I think the Welsh are getting worried now, the lamb is for EU markets ... hard to shift it to Australia or New Zealand...
Many EU countries will be happy to offer their lamb to plug the gap in the market and their offer is also good...

Even Gove now supports May because of the farming!!! As he is a minister for agriculture and now he says he realised that No Deal will be disastrous.

This is not me, this is one of the chief Brexiteers who is talking.
Do you think he is scaremongering about perils of No Deal?

Funny how his position shifted...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jonescat said:


> John Bercow seems to have truly thrown a cat among the pigeons!


He was always my hero!!!
One just man in Sodoma and Gomorrah....


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles3 said:


> That's interesting, rona. From what I had been led to believe, Brexit/no deal would be a disaster for farming. This article about farmers in Devon seems to suggest otherwise, like you say. Do you think farmers countrywide are hoping for a no deal, or at least an actual Brexit?
> 
> Why Brexit could be good news for Britain's farmers


Can't read that - firewall - can you give us the gist?


----------



## emmaviolet

cheekyscrip said:


> He was always my hero!!!
> One just man in Sodoma and Gomorrah....


I like him as he's a fellow Federer fan. I've met him at a few matches. He's pretty intense about it, jumping out of his chair and banging on it when he misses a shot!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Arnie83 said:


> Can't read that - firewall - can you give us the gist?


This is relevant to the FT article. I like the positive attitude of these farmers.

Mr Knight said: "_There were alarm bells ringing about what was going to happen with the subsidies system. We thought 'let's take the bulls by the horns' because we know what Exmoor needs. What started as a small project has completely snowballed.

"Just before Christmas we sat down with Michael Gove and we put a copy right into his hand, which was a huge step forward. Even if only a handful of ideas are taken from it then we've achieved something. We keep pushing with it until someone tells us it can't be done."_


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles3 said:


> That's interesting, rona. From what I had been led to believe, Brexit/no deal would be a disaster for farming. This article about farmers in Devon seems to suggest otherwise, like you say. Do you think farmers countrywide are hoping for a no deal, or at least an actual Brexit?
> 
> Why Brexit could be good news for Britain's farmers


Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. Many farmers are calling for no deal


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. *Many farmers are calling for no deal*


Why is that, do you think?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. Many farmers are calling for no deal


Sunderland voted Brexit.... same thing really...
People don't think they will lose their livehood.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. Many farmers are calling for no deal


That's interesting as the link I posted was from the NFU and the it consisted of organisations that represented 'farmers and growers from all agricultural sectors across the UK' and they were very much against a no deal and believed it to be disastrous to their industry.

Although social media is a funny thing, there are many echo chambers.I haveb't seen many information at all that farmers want a no deal. I know a lot voted out, but not for no deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

emmaviolet said:


> That's interesting as the link I posted was from the NFU and the it consisted of organisations that represented 'farmers and growers from all agricultural sectors across the UK' and they were very much against a no deal and believed it to be disastrous to their industry.
> 
> Although social media is a funny thing, there are many echo chambers.I haveb't seen many information at all that farmers want a no deal. I know a lot voted out, but not for no deal.


It will be turkeys voting for Christmas...

The flood of cheap USA and Chinese rubbish standard food under WTO rules... and our New Deals and New Non EU regulations...
Plus custom tariffs and frontier delays, lovely for transport of perishable goods...
Surely by know people must have twigged what No Deal means?

Why do you think MPs try to stop it?

Except for ERG , hardly sympathetic to farmers...
No Deal is worse than May Dea which rotten enough. 
To have referendum on No Deal or May Deal is like asking whether you prefer to be hanged or to be drowned...
The choice is all yours...


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> This is relevant to the FT article. I like the positive attitude of these farmers.
> 
> Mr Knight said: "_There were alarm bells ringing about what was going to happen with the subsidies system. We thought 'let's take the bulls by the horns' because we know what Exmoor needs. What started as a small project has completely snowballed.
> 
> "Just before Christmas we sat down with Michael Gove and we put a copy right into his hand, which was a huge step forward. Even if only a handful of ideas are taken from it then we've achieved something. We keep pushing with it until someone tells us it can't be done."_


Alarm bells for me in that position is trusting an idiot like Michael Gove, who was the Stan Laurel in the Gove and Johnson double act in 2016 that resembled them.

I'd have more faith in Laurel and Hardy running the UK. They may have made a fine mess but not to the extent of May, Cameron, Johnson, Gove and co.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. Many farmers are calling for no deal


Have you asked yourself why? Not only to allow the farmers to lower standards by hormone enhanced feed and chlorinated chicken have you spared a thought for the conditions animals may have to live in?

Admittingly, some sectors like battery farming are slow to change over but do you think for a minute the bunch of clowns give a damn about animal welfare? They, "Suffer no pain" if they are to believe this government.

It'll be all down to making a quick buck. They'll be more factory farming and battery hen cages in the UK if they are to compete with US suppliers.

Of course the government could block the supplies of US imports to give UK farmers a chance to sell their produce to UK customers, but if they want a trade deal from the US without upsetting them...

Historically when the US say, "Jump" the UK asks them, "How high".

And people thought the EU were bad!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Odd how most farmers seem to want no deal. It's just the establishment, NFU, Defra etc that are scare mongering





cheekyscrip said:


> Sunderland voted Brexit.... same thing really...
> People don't think they will lose their livehood.


Plenty of people can be persuaded to vote against their own best interests. For example, everyone who voted leave (who votes conservative) but depends on our NHS has.


----------



## noushka05

This reminded me of you @KittenKong, I think you'll like it

Featuring Fred Miliband & President of the European Union Carolyn Lukas


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Plenty of people can be persuaded to vote against their own best interests. For example, everyone who voted leave (who votes conservative) but depends on our NHS has.


As of course those UK born immigrants living within other EU countries who voted leave!

Who will they blame if they get deported?!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> As of course those UK born immigrants living within other EU countries who voted leave!
> 
> Who will they blame if they get deported?!


Quite. I hope they DO get deported for there galling hypocrisy.


----------



## noushka05

True.

*David Schneider*‏:
_
Hey, Theresa May. Furious that a vote has been denied even though nothing has changed since the previous one? Just imagine how frustrating that feels when everything has changed since the previous one. #PeoplesVote_


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> This is relevant to the FT article. I like the positive attitude of these farmers.
> 
> Mr Knight said: "_There were alarm bells ringing about what was going to happen with the subsidies system. We thought 'let's take the bulls by the horns' because we know what Exmoor needs. What started as a small project has completely snowballed.
> 
> "Just before Christmas we sat down with Michael Gove and we put a copy right into his hand, which was a huge step forward. Even if only a handful of ideas are taken from it then we've achieved something. We keep pushing with it until someone tells us it can't be done."_





rona said:


> Yes, if you go to any social media with farmers chatting, the huge majority want out. The sheep farmers are a little jittery but as a whole they seem in favour of out. Many farmers are calling for no deal


Do you ever think about animal welfare?

*Compassion in World Farming*‏:
_"The government have said that they won't strike a deal with the US that would lead to the import of chlorine washed chicken... but after their decision on eggs can we trust them?" We were on @BBCFarmingToday to talk about #Brexit. Starts 6 mins in!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0003csb
_
NEVER TRUST A TORY
_
_

_.._


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Have you asked yourself why? Not only to allow the farmers to lower standards by hormone enhanced feed and chlorinated chicken have you spared a thought for the conditions animals may have to live in?


Quite the opposite in most cases, they want to improve standards and have the chance to sell their products for more than it costs to produce.

Have you ever looked at how the EU effects farmers in fact, have you ever spoken to a farmer? 
I'm not talking about those huge landowners who bloat their incomes from the EU coffers, which of course it was designed, just for these types of rich businessmen to get richer. I'm talking about the small family farms or those trying to get their first farm or those with smallholdings, the type that love their land and their animals. Oddly, there's still quite a few of those about but they are in rapid decline

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21641/agriculture/farming-subsidies-in-the-uk/


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Quite the opposite in most cases, they want to improve standards and have the chance to sell their products for more than it costs to produce.
> 
> Have you ever looked at how the EU effects farmers in fact, have you ever spoken to a farmer?
> I'm not talking about those huge landowners who bloat their incomes from the EU coffers, which of course it was designed, just for these types of rich businessmen to get richer. I'm talking about the small family farms or those trying to get their first farm or those with smallholdings, the type that love their land and their animals. Oddly, there's still quite a few of those about but they are in rapid decline
> 
> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21641/agriculture/farming-subsidies-in-the-uk/


The EU sets MINIMUM standards, there is nothing to stop farmers within the EU setting their standards even higher. If we leave we lose those minimum standards & farmers will be forced to compete with farmers outside the EU where animal welfare standards are pretty much non existent. This is the reality. Remember TTIP Rona?

CIWF aren't a propaganda outfit. They only deal in facts & evidence.

.


----------



## rona

Have a look at mega farms and intensive farming and when most of it started............ Mmm after we joined the EU
https://friendsoftheearth.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/cap_briefing_2012.pdf

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/07/interactive-map-exposes-uk-factory-farming-hotspots

It's when businessmen took over the countryside


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Have a look at mega farms and intensive farming and when most of it started............ Mmm after we joined the EU


I don't think you can blame the EU for that, it's all about huge profits, they have been doing it all over the world longer than we have been in the EU and the USA are the worst.


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> That's where the problem lied giving it to the public in the first place.
> 
> It was a far too complex situation for us all to grasp what it meant. I know many argue the opposite, but just look at the mess our leaders have trying to implement it. It wasn't something we really should have had a vote on.





emmaviolet said:


> Yes. No deal had been stated is dangerous for our country, it's the MP's and government's job to keep us safe, to allow people who don't fully understand the real ramifications of a no deal brexit a vote on getting it would be IMO insanity.
> 
> The deal, you have the document to read or not, if you choose not to, that's fine, but the real information is out there to read about it.


How can you say something is far too complex and then say it is ok for everyone to go ahead and have a vote on it. Most people won't even get past the first page!


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Have a look at mega farms and intensive farming and when most of it started............ Mmm after we joined the EU
> https://friendsoftheearth.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/cap_briefing_2012.pdf
> 
> https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/07/interactive-map-exposes-uk-factory-farming-hotspots
> 
> It's when businessmen took over the countryside


Again you miss the point. Leaving the EU means a race to the bottom for animal welfare, for all our standards.










The tories are biggest champions of CAP payments. The European Commission wanted to cap CAP subsidies, the tories fought tooth & nail to block a cap because they benefit the wealthy landowners!. So...if you vote tory you can hardly complain about EU CAP policy. If you vote for regressive politicians you cant expect to get progressive policies.

.......

....


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> *How can you say something is far too complex and then say it is ok for everyone to go ahead and have a vote on it.* Most people won't even get past the first page!


You mean like they did with the original Referendum? 

Incidentally, last night I met someone who SWC always used to claim never existed - someone who openly admitted to voting Leave for a laugh as 'it was never going to win and I like an underdog' and now very much regrets it...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

@Jesthar l think the amount of people that wanted to vote Leave but voted Remain because of project fear would more than cancel out anyone voting for a laugh.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ree-school-lunches-cuts-poverty-a7747066.html


----------



## KittenKong

Of course, they are much more worthy causes than to fund meals for children from low income families...

I'll leave you to work out your own conclusion.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I love that the French minister for European Affairs is said to have called her cat Brexit because he yells to go out but when the door is opened he just sits there glaring and refuses to go out


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Have a look at mega farms and intensive farming and when most of it started............ Mmm after we joined the EU
> https://friendsoftheearth.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/cap_briefing_2012.pdf
> 
> https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/07/interactive-map-exposes-uk-factory-farming-hotspots
> 
> It's when businessmen took over the countryside


I may be wrong, because I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I don't think joining the EU caused intensive farming in the UK, and I'm pretty sure that leaving the EU won't stop it.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I don't think you can blame the EU for that, it's all about huge profits, they have been doing it all over the world longer than we have been in the EU and the USA are the worst.


But isn't this thread about Brexit, the EU and UK?

I was starting work in Agriculture the very year we joined the EU, and I know what a difference it made


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> But isn't this thread about Brexit, the EU and UK?
> 
> I was starting work in Agriculture the very year we joined the EU, and I know what a difference it made


What difference did you see, and what do you consider caused it?


----------



## KittenKong

More gross incompetence.









https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47628769


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> What difference did you see, and what do you consider caused it?


I come from farming family, my cousins have their farms and things changed beyond recognition...

All our red cows with big horns gone, huge "Hollanders" are in now... no longer going to pasture, too heavy ! But they give few times more milk, which tastes like shop milk... not the great stuff from reds...
But all is about productivity. Pastures are now used to grow foder for cows stuck in barns.
Pigs too heavy to leave pigsties, chicken never out of their barns... hugely heavy too.

This is the way to produce cheaper food, this is competitive markets.

Collective , extensive farming was forced on people in Soviet Union and other in countries subjugated to them.

What EU has to do with it?
Equally we can blame EU for closure of the mines!!!
It was around that time too..
Farming is an industry now and Brexit will be a disaster not a help for farming.

You have to be well off and well aware to get quality food.
Where the cheap stuff in ALDI comes from?

Or Lidl etc...

Brexit prayed on nostalgia, how it was in the times when we were young...
Times when we were young and carefree are always remembered fondly.

But farming changed, manufacturing changed, mines closed all over Europe. EU or not.

I don't even like going to the farm any more.

No, Brexit is not a time machine.
It is a time bomb.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @Jesthar l think the amount of people that wanted to vote Leave but voted Remain because of project fear would more than cancel out anyone voting for a laugh.


Obviously it was nothing to fear , the easiest deal ever, no jobs lost, no pound crash, everything is awesome...

No Deal will be just a doodle, a piece of cake that we can have and eat it...

Oh, and 350 million weekly for NHS.


----------



## Elles

The Eu supports it. Eu money grew Eucalyptus trees in Portugal, plastic pods in Spain, pays mega landowners and generally supports the poor farming practices including the export of live animals and keeps food cheaper than it should be. 

Farming is one area where most do actually agree that the Eu has made mistakes and continues to do so.


----------



## Calvine

...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Eu supports it. Eu money grew Eucalyptus trees in Portugal, plastic pods in Spain, pays mega landowners and generally supports the poor farming practices including the export of live animals and keeps food cheaper than it should be.
> 
> *Farming is one area where most do actually agree that the Eu has made mistakes and continues to do so.*


From what I've read of the links posted here the EU certainly did make mistakes, then did try to make things better but with some more unforeseen consequences. CAP still evidently needs reform.

What I haven't seen is any evidence of the evil intent of which they have been accused.

I have wondered whether the amount given via CAP to big UK landowners could be exactly matched by a specific land tax introduced by the UK government so as to mitigate the unfairness of that system. I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the collective intelligence of the ruling party to address the issue. Unless I'm doing them a disservice, it's almost as though they are quite happy for their major donors to continue benefiting from the skewed rules.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The Eu supports it. Eu money grew Eucalyptus trees in Portugal, plastic pods in Spain, pays mega landowners and generally supports the poor farming practices including the export of live animals and keeps food cheaper than it should be.
> 
> Farming is one area where most do actually agree that the Eu has made mistakes and continues to do so.


Its going to be the predicted race to the bottom for animal welfare.

Peter Stevenson, the chief policy adviser at CIWF, said: _"We urge the government in the event of a no-deal Brexit to place tariffs on imported eggs, otherwise eggs - and particularly egg products - from battery hens could flood into the UK, undermining our farmers. If the government fails to protect UK farmers from cheap, low-welfare imports, it will be impossible for it to honour its commitment to using Brexit to achieve gold-standard levels of animal welfare_



Arnie83 said:


> From what I've read of the links posted here the EU certainly did make mistakes, then did try to make things better but with some more unforeseen consequences. CAP still evidently needs reform.
> 
> What I haven't seen is any evidence of the evil intent of which they have been accused.
> 
> I have wondered whether the amount given via CAP to big UK landowners could be exactly matched by a specific land tax introduced by the UK government so as to mitigate the unfairness of that system. I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the collective intelligence of the ruling party to address the issue. Unless I'm doing them a disservice, it's almost as though they are quite happy for their major donors to continue benefiting from the skewed rules.


George Monbiot has done a lot of research on CAP subsidies Arnie. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rm-subsidies-blatant-transfer-of-cash-to-rich

_Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred._
_
There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.

When our government says "we must help the farmers", it means "we must help the 0.1%". Most of the land here is owned by exceedingly wealthy people. Some of them are millionaires from elsewhere: sheikhs, oligarchs and mining magnates who own vast estates in this country. Although they might pay no taxes in the UK, they receive millions in farm subsidies. They are the world's most successful benefit tourists. Yet, amid the manufactured terror of immigrants living off British welfare payments, we scarcely hear a word said against them.

The minister responsible for cutting income support for the poor, Iain Duncan Smith, lives on an estate owned by his wife's family. During the last 10 years it has received €1.5m in income support from taxpayers. How much more obvious do these double standards have to be before we begin to notice? 
_
etc, etc,etc
_
Whatever the reason, it's time we overcame these inhibitions and confronted this unembarrassed robbery of the poor by the rich. The current structure of farm subsidies epitomises the British government's defining project: capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

,,,,_


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> @Jesthar l think the amount of people that wanted to vote Leave but voted Remain because of project fear would more than cancel out anyone voting for a laugh.


And you can't see project fact is ever worse that project fear? Wow. Non so blind I guess .......


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> George Monbiot has done a lot of research on CAP subsidies Arnie. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rm-subsidies-blatant-transfer-of-cash-to-rich
> 
> _Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred.
> 
> There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.
> 
> When our government says "we must help the farmers", it means "we must help the 0.1%". Most of the land here is owned by exceedingly wealthy people. Some of them are millionaires from elsewhere: sheikhs, oligarchs and mining magnates who own vast estates in this country. Although they might pay no taxes in the UK, they receive millions in farm subsidies. They are the world's most successful benefit tourists. Yet, amid the manufactured terror of immigrants living off British welfare payments, we scarcely hear a word said against them.
> 
> The minister responsible for cutting income support for the poor, Iain Duncan Smith, lives on an estate owned by his wife's family. During the last 10 years it has received €1.5m in income support from taxpayers. How much more obvious do these double standards have to be before we begin to notice?
> _
> etc, etc,etc
> _
> Whatever the reason, it's time we overcame these inhibitions and confronted this unembarrassed robbery of the poor by the rich. The current structure of farm subsidies epitomises the British government's defining project: capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.
> 
> ,,,,_


Interesting. I'm going to have a little dig to find out what has changed since Monbiot's piece 6 years ago, and to see if leaving the EU is likely to change the attitude of the UK. It should do, but why were we resisting change back then, I wonder ...


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏:
_Who could possibly have thought that allowing spivs, racists, pantomime toffs & disaster capitalists free rein to manipulate & mislead the electorate might end badly

Perhaps the only certainty now is that the people who led us into this mess will blame the mess on the people who warned that they were leading us into this mess.
Forever.

_

We've made it onto the cover guys.

_








*Ben Riley-Smith*‏

_


----------



## Arnie83

So, unless it has been superseded this is from the official EU site ...

*"The 2013 reform of the Common Agricultural Policy granted member states the option to ʽcap,ʼ i.e. to limit, the amount of the Basic Payment that any farmer receives. The funds ʽsavedʼ under this mechanism stay in the member state concerned and are transferred to the Rural Development envelope. Capping is voluntary for member states and is a specific application of degressivity."*​
So the UK has the ability to cap the CAP subsidy. It sounds like the perfect answer, especially as we then keep the money that we've capped and can spend it on other stuff, like - oh, I don't know - the NHS?

Do we apply a cap, does anyone know?


----------



## Elles

Since we voted to leave

https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farm...cies/common-agricultural-policy/future-cap_en


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Since we voted to leave
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farm...cies/common-agricultural-policy/future-cap_en


Even more control. Do you know that the price that farmers get for their products generally have gone down since 1995 and they are being lead by the nose because they can only survive by going cap in hand to the EU. They want to be set free to trade

Such unfair competition even within the EU


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *James O'Brien*‏:
> _Who could possibly have thought that allowing spivs, racists, pantomime toffs & disaster capitalists free rein to manipulate & mislead the electorate might end badly
> 
> Perhaps the only certainty now is that the people who led us into this mess will blame the mess on the people who warned that they were leading us into this mess.
> Forever.
> 
> _
> 
> We've made it onto the cover guys.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ben Riley-Smith*‏
> _


If America insist as part of that great trade deal I'm sure the government will be happy to oblige.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Even more control. Do you know that the price that farmers get for their products generally have gone down since 1995 and they are being lead by the nose because they can only survive by going cap in hand to the EU. They want to be set free to trade
> 
> Such unfair competition even within the EU


Even Minford - brexiters go to economist, accepts leaving the EU would decimate the farming industry ( plus manufacturing)

You keep engaging in doublespeak It will be unfair competition OUTSIDE the SM/CU.

...................
.


----------



## noushka05

*ITV News*‏:
_'This is the greatest failure of our Parliamentary and government system that any of us alive have witnessed.'

_Watch ITV News Political Editor Robert @Peston's scathing assessment of the current Brexit situation https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-19/downing-street-admits-britain-in-crisis-over-brexit-deal/ …


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> If America insist as part of that great trade deal I'm sure the government will be happy to oblige.
> 
> View attachment 397482


:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Suppose it makes a change from blaming "Remoaners" and the "EU bullies".

Yet the Mial, (deliberate spelling mistake), still can't accept a proportion of the blame for creating this mess :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Looks like no deal supporters are going to forced to face project reality soon. Disaster capitalism will hit. all but the tiny minority set to gain, like a ton of bricks .

*Ian Dunt*‏:

_This is a disaster. It brings us right to no-deal. She has buckled to the lunatics._

..........................................


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-brexiteers-forgot-about-the-border-1.3831635?mode=amp


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Even more control. *Do you know that the price that farmers get for their products generally have gone down since 1995 *and they are being lead by the nose because they can only survive by going cap in hand to the EU. They want to be set free to trade
> 
> Such unfair competition even within the EU


Is that because of the big supermarkets?

I don't understand how removing their subsidies would help ...?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone got PM question time on, I see TM is making a fool of herself and lying and not listening.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone got PM question time on, I see TM is making a fool of herself and lying and not listening.


What's new?

She and her cronies like Rees-Mogg turn my stomach.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Anyone got PM question time on, I see TM is making a fool of herself and lying and not listening.


Me is watching it!

Hope this link works ....... PM's question time blow by blow

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elay-deal-eu-pmqs-corbyn-latest-a8830991.html

*Brexit news - live: Brussels says no to Theresa May's June delay plea amid stormy PMQs clashes*


----------



## Elles

I followed your link @Magyarmum Screenshot of the page lol. Eyes to the right.


----------



## KittenKong

I really ought to feel sorry for the idiots who spent £50 on their Farage March for Brexit which their fuhrer himself appears to have abandoned.

But I don't. Sometimes such people have to learn the hard way don't they.
















https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-fa...espite-urging-supporters-to-join-him-11666858


----------



## AlexPed2393

So Theresa May is threatening to leave... Fair play


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I really ought to feel sorry for the idiots who spent £50 on their Farage March for Brexit which their fuhrer himself appears to have abandoned.
> 
> But I don't. Sometimes such people have to learn the hard way don't they.
> 
> View attachment 397528
> View attachment 397529
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-fa...espite-urging-supporters-to-join-him-11666858


----------



## Magyarmum

Tusk has just announced that a short extension would be possible but only if the WA is voted through the HoC next week.

What happens if it fails though is an open ended question


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Tusk has just announced that a short extension would be possible but only if the WA is voted through the HoC next week.
> 
> What happens if it fails though is an open ended question


I think the added pressure from the EU, alongside May's relentless time wasting and denying Parliament the possibility of debating any other options, will now result in May's deal passing next week.

Parliament won't accept No Deal, revocation simply won't happen, and now the EU have (apparently) closed the door on any long extension. Unless Tusk was being a bit clever with words, or the EU change their minds, May's deal will pass with support from Labout MPs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I think the added pressure from the EU, alongside May's relentless time wasting and denying Parliament the possibility of debating any other options, will now result in May's deal passing next week.
> 
> Parliament won't accept No Deal, revocation simply won't happen, and now the EU have (apparently) closed the door on any long extension. Unless Tusk was being a bit clever with words, or the EU change their minds, May's deal will pass with support from Labout MPs.


 Oh, Brexit fans bunting up?

Government accusing Parliament of being against the will of the People?

Parliament was elected by all the People, not only who voted Leave or who wants No Deal!!!!

Her contempt for Parliament elected by the People is beyond contempt.

This is where Brexit and ERG takes us...
The Parliament will becoming obsolete puppet show and deals done behind closed doors , by bribes or by threats till government gets their way...

Democracy a la Putin...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Arnie83 said:


> I think the added pressure from the EU, alongside May's relentless time wasting and denying Parliament the possibility of debating any other options, will now result in May's deal passing next week.
> 
> Parliament won't accept No Deal, revocation simply won't happen, and now the EU have (apparently) closed the door on any long extension. Unless Tusk was being a bit clever with words, or the EU change their minds, May's deal will pass with support from Labout MPs.


So, if May's deal is passed, are we in or out?


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles3 said:


> So, if May's deal is passed, are we in or out?


Depends who you ask!

And don't forget that the future relationship still has 2 happy years of negotiations before it's decided.

Oh, joy.

Mind you, let's not count chickens (even chlorinated ones) a lot can , and will, happen in the next 9 days.


----------



## cheekyscrip

May puts ERG first, not a will of anyone else.
Cameron wanted to please ERG not anyone else.
This just a group of privileged, rich [email protected]$.....
who used their money, their influence in the media to rig the referendum, to use the bots, the lies, the worst kind of populist demagoguery to have their way - simply to deregulate the state.


The People will actually suffer the most as a consequence and Parliament- many MPs are very aware where it all goes.

It will be a playground for the rich and their government.

Putin kind of democracy.
Small farmers, small businesses, animal welfare, state health care and education all that will be stunted.

This not EU with their faults are the evil,

It is the BoJo, the JRM and ERG that are the real threat for Britain.

The will be no Parliament as we know it, no ECJ either to complain to.

The reality of Brexit will surpass the Project Fear.


----------



## cheekyscrip

https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-delay-latest-gbr-intl/index.html

Powerful words from Conservative party member.
He was never more ashamed...


----------



## emmaviolet

noushka05 said:


> *ITV News*‏:
> _'This is the greatest failure of our Parliamentary and government system that any of us alive have witnessed.'
> 
> _Watch ITV News Political Editor Robert @Peston's scathing assessment of the current Brexit situation https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-19/downing-street-admits-britain-in-crisis-over-brexit-deal/ …


I live in IDS' constituency.

I was over the moon the other day when I saw a billboard with the tweet from Vote Leave that stated we would negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.
It had the same hashtag at the bottom. It's had quite a few people bidding as they drive past it too.


----------



## emmaviolet

Here it is. Right in the middle of Duncan Smith's constituency. It did make me smile. You have to take a win where you can, I live amongst people who think IDS is a' decent man'!


----------



## Snoringbear

Seems to me the only valid reason for an extension is another referendum. That’ll be either remain or leave. Can’t see the leave deal going any further than no deal given the recent votes.


----------



## cheekyscrip

emmaviolet said:


> Here it is. Right in the middle of Duncan Smith's constituency. It did make me smile. You have to take a win where you can, I live amongst people who think IDS is a' decent man'!
> 
> View attachment 397539


Actually, very offensive to donkeys.

Donkeys definitely don't deserve that!!!

Led by self serving liars, cynical traitors of their own country for their own gain.

Governed by a bully.

May is a monster.

More evil than Juncker or Tusk


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Here it is. Right in the middle of Duncan Smith's constituency. It did make me smile. You have to take a win where you can, I live amongst people who think IDS is a' decent man'!


I really don't like ad hominem attacks, but I have to admit I like IDS even less!


----------



## Arnie83

Commentators closer to it all than me seem to think that Tusk has indeed left open the possibility of a long extension if May's deal doesn't pass the Commons in the next week. It's only the short extension that would then be off the table.

Incidentally, does anyone else think that Mark Francois looks like Captain Mainwaring? They certainly seem to be fighting the same war!


----------



## rona

So, Corbyn has chucked his toys out the pram again


----------



## rona

The grown up has spoken, just wish those stroppy kids would listen


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> So, Corbyn has chucked his toys out the pram again


Not really. He had agreed to a meeting of the leaders of the political parties and TM reneged on this. The Independent Group are not a political party, so why were they even there?

It's a bit late for her to appeal to them now, but from inside the meeting, she only wanted to proceed exactly as she has been. So there wasn't any point at all any way. It's a waste of time.


----------



## emmaviolet

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't like ad hominem attacks, but I have to admit I like IDS even less!


You can imagine how I feel!

I don't know what's worse, being represented by him or living in a place that actually vote him in, so everyone you're talking to every day could have possibly voted him in!


----------



## emmaviolet

She's criticising the MP's for doing their job and not surrendering to her plan.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> The grown up has spoken, just wish those stroppy kids would listen


Yes! Gun to their heads...
So her red lines are not to blame?
She definitely treats MPs as a particularly overdone caricature of a bully head teacher will treat her pupils or a prison warden would treat rebellious prisoners.

MPs are elected by not 52 or 48 percent but by all the people and this was democratic election.
MPs rejected her Deal by historical majority because it is a rotten deal.

Not in the best interest of Britain.

If she wants to deliver the will of the people she can ask them if they want this deal rather than remain?
She didn't reach out, didn't compromise, Brexit is May Deal and May knows best.
MPs are adults, most of them have knowledge and experience far exceeding this of May.

Corbyn....  we will not be in that rot if Labour has different leader. Not eurosceptic who sabotaged Remain from the start.
Like David Miliband , great pity they didn't choose him above Ed.


----------



## Snoringbear

UK due to lose £1tn in financial assets due to Brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d


----------



## cheekyscrip

Snoringbear said:


> UK due to lose £1tn in financial assets due to Brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d


We lost so much already, the worst of G7 economies, lost growth, 14% of pound value!!!
No Deal means loss of 9.3% of our economy!!!

That is budget cuts for everyone on everything: education, health care, environment, police...

Leave promised shorter queues in A&E... famous clip... they will be longer .. or none if hospitals close down.

Brexit is wrecking the country... yes, you survived two world wars, but at least haven't started them!!!!

Now Germany and France will have total control over EU.
Grand, just grand, you can see why they are not crying.
France were opposing to our joining in, because of competition.
Now they will have it all.

Brexit is not only damaging Britain but also all smaller EU nations that will be now totally dominated by Germany and France.

They had no vote.


----------



## kimthecat

From tonights BBC news , so confusing. 
is this right ? Mrs may is going to the EU to get more concessions tomorrow. Unless she gets them, Bercow wont let there be a third vote on her deal. If her deal isn't passed , then the EU won't grant a short extension . We will leave on March 29th with no deal but MPs vote against leaving with No Deal . 

Catch 22?


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> UK due to lose £1tn in financial assets due to Brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d


You have to subscribe to be able to read it.


----------



## KittenKong

They'll be admitting the 'man' himself into the Tory party next.










https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...twitter-andrew-bowles-suspended-a8831996.html


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes! Gun to their heads...
> So her red lines are not to blame?
> She definitely treats MPs as a particularly overdone caricature of a bully head teacher will treat her pupils or a prison warden would treat rebellious prisoners.
> 
> MPs are elected by not 52 or 48 percent but by all the people and this was democratic election.
> MPs rejected her Deal by historical majority because it is a rotten deal.
> 
> Not in the best interest of Britain.
> 
> If she wants to deliver the will of the people she can ask them if they want this deal rather than remain?
> She didn't reach out, didn't compromise, Brexit is May Deal and May knows best.
> MPs are adults, most of them have knowledge and experience far exceeding this of May.
> 
> Corbyn....  we will not be in that rot if Labour has different leader. Not eurosceptic who sabotaged Remain from the start.
> Like David Miliband , great pity they didn't choose him above Ed.


Sadly the media would've destroyed David as they destroyed his brother Ed, unless he did a deal with Murdoch. We really do know who runs the UK don't we.

Looks like the deluded fascist's pleas to the public has backfired. This petition had well under 100,000 signatures this time last week.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584








She speaks only for the few Farage marchers and the SY-L yellow vest brigade.

I'll be in London on Saturday. My Citizen of Europe T-Shirt arrived yesterday.


----------



## KittenKong

Five minutes later.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Five minutes later.
> 
> View attachment 397594


Voted........ not that it will makes any difference, it just makes me feel better.


----------



## KittenKong

Eeek!


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> Voted........ not that it will makes any difference, it just makes me feel better.


Me too. I didn't bother earlier I must admit, but couldn't ignore this.

May's pleas to the public last night has backfired hasn't it. She now sees her MPs as 'enemies' let alone the EU!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The grown up has spoken, just wish those stroppy kids would listen


I was always led to believe it was grown up and responsible to own up to mistakes you make and vow to put things right, not to blame everyone except for yourself which is exactly what May did last night. Hardly grown up behaviour was it.

Hopefully, those MPs who might have been tempted to vote for May's deal should it come back a third time might now think twice about doing so after that performance last night.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> So, Corbyn has chucked his toys out the pram again


:Hilarious political party or not, excluding Independents doesn't seem like democracy. Other party leaders didn't walk out. 
Corbyn's happy to talk to terrorists but not other MPs 

Hope he didn't leave his dummy behind,


----------



## Arnie83

emmaviolet said:


> Not really. He had agreed to a meeting of the leaders of the political parties and TM reneged on this. The Independent Group are not a political party, so why were they even there?
> 
> It's a bit late for her to appeal to them now, but from inside the meeting, she only wanted to proceed exactly as she has been. So there wasn't any point at all any way. It's a waste of time.


There certainly doesn't seem to be any point apart from May trying yet again to get support for what she wants rather than listen to what others think.

But re Umunna; he is the de facto leader of a group in Parliament with 1 more MP than the DUP and 1 less than the Lib Dems. With the maths as it is it seems fair to me to have asked him along.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Eeek!
> View attachment 397595


Done

584,017 so far.


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> From tonights BBC news , so confusing.
> is this right ? Mrs may is going to the EU to get more concessions tomorrow. Unless she gets them, Bercow wont let there be a third vote on her deal. If her deal isn't passed , then the EU won't grant a short extension . We will leave on March 29th with no deal but MPs vote against leaving with No Deal .
> 
> Catch 22?


Because the withdrawal agreement is now bundled with the extension the vote would not be substantially the same one. Bercow will allow a third vote if it comes to that.


----------



## Satori

rona said:


> The grown up has spoken, just wish those stroppy kids would listen


Agreed. I have been very disappointed at May's approach to the negotiations from day one. However we are where we are and she is showing real leadership now. Elements of the wonderful Mrs T in that speech.


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Agreed. I have been very disappointed at May's approach to the negotiations from day one. However we are where we are and she is showing real leadership now. Elements of the wonderful Mrs T in that speech.


She has grit, I'll give her that, though to align her anywhere near the great Mrs T is a bit of an insult I fear. Mrs T would have had this done and dusted long ago


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> I live in IDS' constituency.
> 
> I was over the moon the other day when I saw a billboard with the tweet from Vote Leave that stated we would negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.
> It had the same hashtag at the bottom. It's had quite a few people bidding as they drive past it too.


Gosh, I am really sorry for you Emma x. IDS is in the running for the most evil MP of all. How anyone could give their vote to someone like that is beyond me

Aren't Led by Donkeys ace though? Have you seen them trolling Farage? #WheresNigel? :Hilarious

_We're searching high and low for @Nigel_Farage. We know he's not with the #MarchToLeave cos he bailed on Saturday when the cameras left. We checked out Parliament, his Mayfair Club and his banker mates. So here maybe, at the Russian embassy? #WheresNigel?


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108413533350436864_


rona said:


> So, Corbyn has chucked his toys out the pram again


The meeting was another of Mays PR stunts.

_Plaid Cymru's @LSRPlaid tells me meeting between opposition parties and PM and Chief Whip was just a "tick box exercise". She offered nothing new_



rona said:


> The grown up has spoken, just wish those stroppy kids would listen


Are the grown ups the ones who want to drive us all over the cliff or the ones who are fighting to stop this trainwreck?



KittenKong said:


> Sadly the media would've destroyed David as they destroyed his brother Ed, unless he did a deal with Murdoch. We really do know who runs the UK don't we.
> 
> Looks like the deluded fascist's pleas to the public has backfired. This petition had well under 100,000 signatures this time last week.
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
> View attachment 397593
> 
> She speaks only for the few Farage marchers and the SY-L yellow vest brigade.
> 
> I'll be in London on Saturday. My Citizen of Europe T-Shirt arrived yesterday.


I've tried to sign the petition but its hasnt arrived in my emails yet? 

I wish we could go on Saturday, me & my hubby seriously contemplated it, but the coach leaves at 7 am & lord knows what time we'd get back & we couldnt leave the dogs for that long. Four members of my family are going though, KK

Hope the sun shines down on you all & you get a bit better turn out than March to Leave has:Hilarious



...


----------



## emmaviolet

She's not really showing any form of real leadership, leadership involves give and take and listening to those around you.

She didn't even go to the 1922 meeting as she knew they were going to give her hell. She's burying her head in the sand and refusing to listen to anyone,even those closest to her.

That's not leadership.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

noushka05 said:


> I've tried to sign the petition but its hasnt arrived in my emails yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The site is down for maintenance apparently, Noush. They were just talking about on the news and the reporter mentioned it, possibly why you haven`t received notification?


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> The site is down for maintenance apparently, Noush. They were just talking about on the news and the reporter mentioned it, possibly why you haven`t received notification?


or they have crashed it themselves so people can't sign it.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> threatening to leave


Or perhaps more appropriate would be ''promising'' to leave??


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws said:


> or they have crashed it themselves so people can't sign it.


This is from BBC news: _ A House of Commons spokesperson said the site crashed on Thursday morning because of "a large and sustained load on the system_".

Not sure though if it means just that particular petition or the whole petition site as presumably there are counter petitions too.


----------



## kirksandallchins

I have to say, I am ashamed of our politicians. They've have had well over two years to come up with a deal and are still squabbling. 

You can see they are more concerned about scoring points off each other than trying to sort things out for the good of the country.

The UK used to be known as the mother of all Parliaments, now its laughing stock full of idiots. I do vote in elections but I can understand now why people dont. I didn't like Maggie Thatcher, but she would have sorted Brexit out long before now if she had been in charge


----------



## kimthecat

kirksandallchins said:


> I have to say, I am ashamed of our politicians. They've have had well over two years to come up with a deal and are still squabbling.
> 
> You can see they are more concerned about scoring points off each other than trying to sort things out for the good of the country.
> 
> The UK used to be known as the mother of all Parliaments, now its laughing stock full of idiots. I do vote in elections but I can understand now why people dont. I didn't like Maggie Thatcher, but she would have sorted Brexit out long before now if she had been in charge


Agree with this 100% .


----------



## Calvine

kirksandallchins said:


> I can understand now why people dont.


So can I; I can totally understand. At one time I thought people who didn't vote were shameful, but now I seriously wonder if I will ever bother voting again (for anything) after this farcical pantomime. If someone produced a sitcom about it, it would be dismissed as ''unbelievable''.


----------



## Elles

John Bercow says “The sole duty of every member of Parliament is to do what he or she thinks is right."

The sole duty. So not what their constituents voted for, their manifesto, their party policy, just what they think is right. 

That’s ok then.


----------



## KittenKong

From FB

What makes Theresa May think we don't want a second referendum? Perhaps it could be because she is TELLING us we don't want a second referendum, because she has finally become the dictator and SHE doesn't want one. Or it could be she only listens, speaks and cares about the rich loud mouthed Tory Brexit MP's and their friends? All of whom, not us ordinary folks who will gain from Brexit. Perhaps it's both? The plain truth is we will be much worse off out of the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Because the withdrawal agreement is now bundled with the extension the vote would not be substantially the same one. Bercow will allow a third vote if it comes to that.


That is certainly my understanding and expectation. I suppose a change in the potential consequences of a vote does substantially change it even if the subject being voted on hasn't changed at all.

For what it's worth, I think May's speech last night has increased the likelihood of it being rejected again. MPs are not happy that May's 'leadership' seems to be exemplified by blaming her MPs for something many of them think is very much her own fault.


----------



## Arnie83

Incidentally, the Revoke petition is now approaching the 1 million mark.

914,464 signatures


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> Agreed. I have been very disappointed at May's approach to the negotiations from day one. However we are where we are and she is showing real leadership now. Elements of the wonderful Mrs T in that speech.


:Hilarious Hillarious. Mrs Thatcher will be turning in her grave.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious Hillarious. Mrs Thatcher would be turning in her grave.


One thing about Thatcher is that we wouldn't have had a bloody silly referendum in the first place.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> John Bercow says "The sole duty of every member of Parliament is to do what he or she thinks is right."
> 
> The sole duty. So not what their constituents voted for, their manifesto, their party policy, just what they think is right.
> 
> That's ok then.


Would you do something that you thought was wrong?

If I honestly believed that voting a certain way would absolutely not be in the best interests of my constituents, then I would not vote that way.

And if my constituents are not going to get the chance to confirm that what they are actually being offered is or is not what they wanted or expected 3 years ago, then I wouldn't have a second thought about voting according to the facts and their implications, regardless of which side of the issue that guided me towards.


----------



## Arnie83

Update ...

*1,002,269 *signatures

I'll stop now.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Would you do something that you thought was wrong?
> 
> If I honestly believed that voting a certain way would absolutely not be in the best interests of my constituents, then I would not vote that way.
> 
> And if my constituents are not going to get the chance to confirm that what they are actually being offered is or is not what they wanted or expected 3 years ago, then I wouldn't have a second thought about voting according to the facts and their implications, regardless of which side of the issue that guided me towards.


No. If my constituency voted overwhelmingly for something I personally disagreed with and couldn't represent on their behalf, I'd stand down. Unlike this lot, who have been trying to herd the people in the direction they want since day one, when much to their shock and surprise they didn't get the result they expected.

You are a remainer, I expect you signed the petition asking the government to revoke article 50. Which in my opinion is a petition to give up people's rights and a slight on democracy. It should at the very least ask for a second referendum, not just to remain. That people, many of whom lied and said they respected the result, are happily asking a remain supporting government to ignore the referendum, should ring warning bells. I could not sign a petition asking to simply ignore the referendum in favour of the Eu, but I would have considered joining a call for a second vote, if it included 3 choices, remain, leave, or deal.

People are in the main fed up with it and want to get past it now. We've been manipulated to a position of back against the wall. Nothing less than I expected. I expect, the Eu seeing this, will now give more time, and push even harder for a deal that brings us to staying in.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious Hillarious. Mrs Thatcher will be turning in her grave.


... and I never had you pegged as a Thatcher fan.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No. If my constituency voted overwhelmingly for something I personally disagreed with and couldn't represent on their behalf, I'd stand down. Unlike this lot, who have been trying to herd the people in the direction they want since day one, when much to their shock and surprise they didn't get the result they expected.


Fair enough. I wouldn't, especially when the facts have changed and my constituents were being denied the chance to have their say.



Elles said:


> You are a remainer, I expect you signed the petition asking the government to revoke article 50. Which in my opinion is a petition to give up people's rights and a slight on democracy. It should at the very least ask for a second referendum, not just to remain. That people, many of whom lied and said they respected the result, are happily asking a remain supporting government to ignore the referendum, should ring warning bells. I could not sign a petition asking to simply ignore the referendum in favour of the Eu, but I would have considered joining a call for a second vote, if it included 3 choices, remain, leave, or deal.


I did sign the petition, because I signed the one calling for a further referendum to serve democracy and this is being ignored by the government. Democracy is not being served at the moment, and has been trashed by this whole affair. To suggest that I am slighting democracy by following the only route left open to me - along with the march on Saturday - is to overlook the last 3 years.

Plus, my hope is that A50 can be revoked, and then the issue of Brexit can be addressed in a sensible, collegiate, grown up manner. Whether that ends with remaining or leaving is another matter. But there wasn't a petition for that.



Elles said:


> People are in the main fed up with it and want to get past it now.


How do you know this? I've heard a lot of politicians saying it, as though it is a sensible reason to accept a deal or leave with no deal, but I haven't seen any solid evidence of what people actually want.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Plus, my hope is that A50 can be revoked, and then the issue of Brexit can be addressed in a sensible, collegiate, grown up manner. Whether that ends with remaining or leaving is another matter. But there wasn't a petition for that.


Particularly this. We're not even remotely ready as a country to handle a No Deal scenario, and neither side lies May's deal.

I may have voted remain, and still would, but the way this Brexit effort has been played out like a bad pantomime and primarily for the benefit of an elitist subsection of the population is the biggest affront to democracy. Even if Article 50 is revoked with the intention to negotiate a sensible leaving platform and then allow a proper two year preparation period where we know what we are preparing for (as opposed to oscillating wildly between Yes, No and May-be scant weeks before the deadline), it's better than jumping headfirst into the quagmire Our Glorious Leaders have left us with...


----------



## Elles

Everywhere I’ve seen people saying they are fed up with Brexit? On the news, in links here, everywhere. Who isn’t fed up with it?


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> ... and I never had you pegged as a Thatcher fan.


Certainly not, but she was a competent politician.

I wonder what she would've thought about her successor taking the UK out of the SM and CU because she doesn't agree with FoM?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> she was a competent politician


And she was true to herself; even if you didn't like her, you could respect her for that, albeit reluctantly.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Everywhere I've seen people saying they are fed up with Brexit? On the news, in links here, everywhere. Who isn't fed up with it?


I've been fed up sitting in an airport waiting for a technical problem with the plane to be resolved, but I've never suggested that enough's enough and that we should take off anyway.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> However we are where we are and she is showing real leadership now. Elements of the wonderful Mrs T in that speech.


----------



## Magyarmum

According to CNN Live in Brussels, the EU have approved May 22nd provided the WA is passed by Parliament.


----------



## noushka05

3dogs2cats said:


> The site is down for maintenance apparently, Noush. They were just talking about on the news and the reporter mentioned it, possibly why you haven`t received notification?


Thank you, yes that must have been why. I've since managed to sign it but looks like its down again due to the volume of people signing it I think.



Elles said:


> John Bercow says "The sole duty of every member of Parliament is to do what he or she thinks is right."
> 
> The sole duty. So not what their constituents voted for, their manifesto, their party policy, just what they think is right.
> 
> That's ok then.


Its the duty of MPs to the best for the country. Mays deal will be a disaster for the country - no deal a catastrophe Elles. If constituents voted to destroy our NHS, throw peace in NI under a bus, voted to ruin our country, then shame on them, MPs should put the country first.


----------



## noushka05

Wow.
_
_
*Frances O'Grady*‏:
_The prime minister has walked us into a national emergency. @The_TUC and @CBItweets agree - she needs to urgently change her Brexit approach and find a Plan B that protects jobs, rights and livelihoods

_


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

Unfortunately May & hard brexiteers don't appear to blessed with wisdom. Nice one Mrs May & co.

*Robert Peston*‏:

I_ don't believe the official voices of business and trade unions have ever jointly described a looming threat as a "national emergency".
And I have been covering this stuff since 1983. Unwise to ignore
_
*Sam Coates Times*‏:
_

This only happens at times of National crisis
_

_







_


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Everywhere I've seen people saying they are fed up with Brexit? On the news, in links here, everywhere. Who isn't fed up with it?


BUT that does not mean they want No Deal or May Deal.

I am fed up with that obsinate harridan ( present party excluded) ...
Thus the unwillingness to listen to anyone, this her RedLines and running down the clock that left us in that mess..
Pound is falling down... but rich to rejoice!
FTSE100 is up obviously!!!

I know a few people who are quite cynically making good profits on playing against the pound, they have the funds to do so and are Brexit happy... they voted for it and No Deal will make them even happier...

Their opinion on " The People " who got persuaded to vote for Brexit cannot be quoted as might offend.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 397638
> 
> :Hilarious


#
LOL

Its being live streamed on this link KK. 



 People are urging us to watch this rather than checking out the petition as its overloading it or summat lol


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I've been fed up sitting in an airport waiting for a technical problem with the plane to be resolved, but I've never suggested that enough's enough and that we should take off anyway.


Talk about putting words into my mouth lol. I'm talking about the petition and that people want to get past brexit and concentrate on domestic affairs and how we're all fed up with it. Whether getting past it by forgetting the whole thing, or sorting it out. It's only comparable to taking off in an unsafe plane if you're a remainer who thinks brexit would be disastrous. I haven't even suggested May deal, or no deal as the only options, I also mentioned remain.

You stalwart remainers are so stuck in your own opinions and assumptions, you read every post I make as though I'm Jacob Rees Mogg himself. :Hilarious


----------



## emmaviolet

I love that people think that voting through May's deal or crashing out without a deal will put an end to this whole exhausting Brexit mess.

This is meant to be the easier part, the next stages are not at all easy and even if she were to get this deal passed, it wouldn't end the non stop Brexit talk and it would continue on for many years to come.


----------



## Elles

emmaviolet said:


> I love that people think that voting through May's deal or crashing out without a deal will put an end to this whole exhausting Brexit mess.
> 
> This is meant to be the easier part, the next stages are not at all easy and even if she were to get this deal passed, it wouldn't end the non stop Brexit talk and it would continue on for many years to come.


If we forgot the whole thing, or left without a deal, it would put a stop to the uncertainty and the government could get on with the job of sorting out what needs sorting out. May's deal keeps it ongoing forever. Leaving the Eu without a deal is impossible though, there are already some arrangements in place, which makes it a different no deal to the no deal of a few months back.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 397638
> 
> :Hilarious


I think it's only fair to point out that synchronicity doesn't necessarily imply causality! I think I read that the instigator of the petition managed to alert a number of people to it, after which it took off.

Still very impressive though, and was over 1.25 million last time I looked.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Talk about putting words into my mouth lol. I'm talking about the petition and that people want to get past brexit and concentrate on domestic affairs and how we're all fed up with it. Whether getting past it by forgetting the whole thing, or sorting it out. It's only comparable to taking off in an unsafe plane if you're a remainer who thinks brexit would be disastrous. I haven't even suggested May deal, or no deal as the only options, I also mentioned remain.
> 
> You stalwart remainers are so stuck in your own opinions and assumptions, you read every post I make as though I'm Jacob Rees Mogg himself. :Hilarious


I apologise if I misread your implication.

I don't think I am stuck in my own opinion or assumptions. I try not to make assumptions but, rather, check facts, and if the facts change, I change my opinions accordingly. I would rather hope that might have become clear in this thread.


----------



## noushka05

This government is insane. No other words.

*Sky News Breaking*‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak

_Sky News can reveal the armed forces have activated a team in a nuclear bunker beneath the Ministry of Defence to step up preparations for a 'no-deal' Brexit_

...


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> leaving the Eu without a deal is impossible though, there are already some arrangements in place, which makes it a different no deal to the no deal of a few months back.


----------



## kimthecat

*Sky News Breaking*‏Verified account @*SkyNewsBreak*
Sky News can reveal the armed forces have activated a team in a nuclear bunker beneath the Ministry of Defence to step up preparations for a 'no-deal' Brexit

I wonder if its this one


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏:

2016: "Let's take the money we send to the EU and give £350m a week to the NHS"

2019: "The NHS can't get the medicine it needs and we haven't even left yet"










David Schneider: For those still saying this is all Project Fear, it's Project Reality for people who need the medicines.

*Ellie*‏: _I have epilepsy so I need anti-seizure meds. 
I usually pick up a months pack at a time. Last week I was only given a week's worth because the producer of the meds 
are rationing them in case of a no deal Brexit._
_
.........................................................................................................................................................._


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

Day in and day out I see transfers from British assets away... lots of companies offer now “mirror funds” in Ireland, Malta etc... 
British shares etc... are sort of “black listed” - tentatively for long term if at all....

The scale of financial “Brexit” is pretty serious.

That means British companies, not FTSE100 but FTSE250 and smaller will be quite starved of capital...
Then quite forced to accept any... add in No Deal we will be out of MIFID2 and other regulations...
Think about dirty money ( drugs, weapons, slavery) coming in..,
Why Putin employed those bots?

Poured Russian money into Brexit.

It is not clearly visible unless you are in financial services and see it happen, but it does.

Our MPs are more aware of it than people on the street, this is why they don’t want May Deal or No Deal.

Brexit will mean the power will be in hands of mega rich and those hands are pretty dirty...

Scratch the surface of ERG ...


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1553194900


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bercow is a very, very brave man.

He definitely put his life on the line.

It is like trying to stop the train wreck by jumping in front of the train...

I do admire his guts.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I apologise if I misread your implication.
> 
> I don't think I am stuck in my own opinion or assumptions. I try not to make assumptions but, rather, check facts, and if the facts change, I change my opinions accordingly. I would rather hope that might have become clear in this thread.


Opinions and assumptions about me.


----------



## noushka05

*Corbyn not ruling out revoking article 50 to avoid no-deal Brexit*
Labour leader makes comments in Brussels before PM's arrival for leaders' summit

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-revoking-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit


----------



## Arnie83

As someone else said, the grown-ups have now spoken.

EU leaders have agreed on a plan to delay the Article 50 process, postponing Brexit beyond 29 March.

The UK will be offered a delay until 22 May, if MPs approve the withdrawal deal negotiated with the EU next week.

If they do not, the EU will back a shorter delay until 12 April, allowing the UK time to get the deal through or to "indicate a way forward".​
That way forward can include asking nicely for a longer extension so that we can do Brexit sensibly, which might actually include asking the people what they want to do now.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1553194900
> 
> View attachment 397659


Brexit, May and her fellow brextremists have turned this country into a sewer.

Here are Lioyd's tweets on the matter.

*Lloyd Russell-Moyle*‏:
_I was out today in the street of Kemptown with @itvnews, a vast majority want to remain and have a final say vote on deal vs remain. Unfortunately at the end of the day a man came up and started shouting at the TV crew and me. Saying MPs are the problems & we are traitors.

He tried to assault me, grabbed & bent my glasses and for a moment I thought he was going to hit me. 3 grown men had to prise him off me. This is not normal, I'm representing my constituents but @theresa_may has whipped up fear and division with her speech last night

A minority will fall for hate or division of May but attack's like this afternoons will not make me frit. Only by standing up & not pandering will we gain decency for our nation. One way to stand up to fear is to join the march on Saturday & demand a #FinalSay and @Another_Europe_



cheekyscrip said:


> Bercow is a very, very brave man.
> 
> He definitely put his life on the line.
> 
> It is like trying to stop the train wreck by jumping in front of the train...
> 
> I do admire his guts.


His is brave. I really fear for his safety Cheeky. What May did in her speech was unforgivable. She has deliberately put sensible politicians in danger. In fact we're all in very dangerous territory with this reckless women.

Speeches like this only appeal to populists & it populism which has got us into this mess. Make Britain Great Again?:Wtf

*Theresa May's Trumpian statement was reminiscent of a sovereign dictator*


https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-statement-was-reminiscent-sovereign-dictator


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

What the hell is wrong with her? I think shes bleeding deranged!

*Nick Robinson*‏:
_Last night theresa may suggested choice was between her deal & No Deal. Tonight she says it's between her deal & a long delay. 
Last night she attacked MPs for failing to make their minds up. Tonight she says she understands that MPs are frustrated. 
I hope that's clear._


----------



## rona

Well.....what a lot of squirming to try to overturn the referendum


----------



## noushka05

This 16 year old girl is amazing. Informed & eloquent.

So sad the young generation who have had no say in this debacle, will be the ones to suffer the longest because of the reckless, selfservatives.

*BBC Question Time*‏:
_'David Cameron made the referendum policy because he didn't want to risk losing 10 or 15 seats to UKIP and look where it has got us'

This 16-year-old says the Conservative Party are responsible for Brexit. #bbcqt_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108863526406418438
.............................................


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


> Brexit, May and her fellow brextremists have turned this country into a sewer.


It's not just May it's the tory party with it's all the in fighting and trying not to upset the party and loss votes the country has suffered for it.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Well.....what a lot of squirming to try to overturn the referendum


The referendum was illegal, built on lies & cheating, foreign interference. But its like a cult to people who want us to leave no matter the cost. When our country falls into chaos & millions of people lose their jobs, our NHS gone forever, food & medicine shortages & so on, remember to own it Rona, don't go playing the blame game. Did you know the government are stock piling body bags? You have voted for disaster capitalism.

*Carole Cadwalladr*‏:
_This superb @newyorker article makes an overwhelming case against @arron_banks: his wife a suspected Russian asset, his business littered with 'red flags for money laundering'. 11 (_now 7!)_ days to Brexit. And govt maintains TOTAL silence.

Britain is so very lost

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...-triumph-of-arron-banks-the-bad-boy-of-brexit_

*The Chaotic Triumph of Arron Banks, the "Bad Boy of Brexit"*
*The U.K. is in a panic over voters' decision to withdraw from the E.U. But the pugnacious millionaire whose donations-and Trumpian scare tactics-helped sway Britons has no regrets. *


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> It's not just May it's the tory party with it's all the in fighting and trying not to upset the party and loss votes the country has suffered for it.


True, the tories have put party before the country. They are so selfish.


----------



## kimthecat

and labour are as bad.


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> If we forgot the whole thing, or left without a deal, it would put a stop to the uncertainty and the government could get on with the job of sorting out what needs sorting out. May's deal keeps it ongoing forever. Leaving the Eu without a deal is impossible though, there are already some arrangements in place, which makes it a different no deal to the no deal of a few months back.


If we left without a deal the uncertainty would last.

It would have repercussions that would last beyond the first week of leaving without a deal and a whole lot of people would be in limbo as to where they were allowed to even live.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> and labour are as bad.


I was waiting for you to use Corbyn as a deflection, so you surprised me by using labour instead:Hilarious

This whole brexit mess lies squarely at the tories feet.

_David Cameron made the referendum policy because he didn't want to risk losing 10 or 15 seats to UKIP and look where it has got us' 
This 16-year-old says the Conservative Party are responsible for Brexit. #bbcqt_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108863526406418438
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## MilleD

Is it just me who's baffled by the PMs insistence that the vote was the vote was the vote in 2016. But it's ok to keep having a bash at voting on her deal.

She _must_ understand how two faced that comes across?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Is it just me who's baffled by the PMs insistence that the vote was the vote was the vote in 2016. But it's ok to keep having a bash at voting on her deal.
> 
> She _must_ understand how two faced that comes across?


I expect May to cancel or at least postpone the 2022 GE should Martial Law result.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Is it just me who's baffled by the PMs insistence that the vote was the vote was the vote in 2016. But it's ok to keep having a bash at voting on her deal.
> 
> She _must_ understand how two faced that comes across?


No, its not just you

She a hypocrite of the highest order.


----------



## noushka05

Lino:Hilarious


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Is it just me who's baffled by the PMs insistence that the vote was the vote was the vote in 2016. But it's ok to keep having a bash at voting on her deal.
> 
> She _must_ understand how two faced that comes across?


Agreed. It should be finished and we should be leaving the EU on March 29th, but as we all know, the politicians (of all parties) still want their little snouts in the trough


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Agreed. It should be finished and we should be leaving the EU on March 29th, but as we all know, the politicians (of all parties) still want their little snouts in the trough


We should be but May has failed to get a good deal. She even voted against it herself Every politician with an ounce of integrity is now trying to stop a disastrous no deal. That you STILL can't see no deal is a catastrophe speaks volumes frankly.


----------



## noushka05

Eric speaks for me - not May or her cronies!

*Eric Idle*‏:

_Dear EU. We made a terrible mistake. We listened to the wrong people. We would much rather be in an alliance with 28 States than alone with the mad f*** Trump. 
Please can we come back. Yours the sensible party._

25,608 likes

....................


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Eric speaks for me - not May or her cronies!
> 
> *Eric Idle*‏:
> 
> _Dear EU. We made a terrible mistake. We listened to the wrong people. We would much rather be in an alliance with 28 States than alone with the mad f*** Trump.
> Please can we come back. Yours the sensible party._
> 
> 25,608 likes
> 
> ....................


Finally!!! You've posted something from someone I actually like!

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> If we left without a deal the uncertainty would last.
> 
> It would have repercussions that would last beyond the first week of leaving without a deal and a whole lot of people would be in limbo as to where they were allowed to even live.


It would most certainly last if May gets her deal as they'll be 18 months of uncertainty as regards post transition where May's true colours will certainly show which is more frightening than Brexit itself.

Revoke A50 and put the vile woman in a straight jacket is what should happen.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Well.....what a lot of squirming to try to overturn the referendum


By whom, may I ask?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Agreed. It should be finished and we should be leaving the EU on March 29th, but as we all know, the politicians (of all parties) still want their little snouts in the trough


What trough, may I ask?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> She even voted against it herself


Did she?

Weird….


----------



## mightyboosh

This is far more worrying to me.

https://newsthump.com/2018/09/27/ja...ntry-well-stocked-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit/

I'm worried that my aged butler won't be able to cope and my housekeeper only thinks about housekeeping stuff (obviously) and has no political nous. Don't even ask about the grounds staff, they're useless. What should I do? Have two butlers? That don't sound right.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Britons wondering how you go about starting a coup*
17th November 2017









*THE UK is wondering just how one would forcibly remove an unpopular leader with no democratic mandate hell-bent on ruining the country.*

Britons are now musing on what it would take to bring such a thing about and if there is anything they are able to do to help it along.

Tom Logan of Ludlow said: "My brother-in-law's in the army. I could ask him.

"I mean I'd always thought of coups as bad, but you reach a point when seeing a soldier presenting the _Ten O'Clock News_ would come as something of a relief. At least they're adults.

"Surely if Burkina Faso can manage eight coups since 1980, we could pull off a little one, or even just a putsch. I'd prefer bloodless, though obviously you have to be flexible.

"We just need a military strongman, a load of tanks in the streets, and some light shelling of a palace and we're away.

"I'm happy with anyone in a vintage army jacket festooned with medals being in charge. Can't be worse."


----------



## mightyboosh

I have one of those old fashioned pitchforks, anyone else? They work wonders in those old films. An angry mob threatening to use those things is usually enough to change policy.


----------



## Magyarmum

mightyboosh said:


> I have one of those old fashioned pitchforks, anyone else? They work wonders in those old films. An angry mob threatening to use those things is usually enough to change policy.


I'm a dab hand with a walking stick







....


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> "I'm happy with anyone in a vintage army jacket festooned with medals being in charge. Can't be worse."




Whilst I realise this is supposed to be funny, isn't this apparently the view that bought us to this point in the first place?​


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Whilst I realise this is supposed to be funny, isn't this apparently the view that bought us to this point in the first place?​


If you say so 

I didn't take it that seriously!


----------



## emmaviolet

Yeah, she's toast, the DUP are out (even though she really couldn't have held another vote anyway) and she's lost any Conservative backing she did have. Even her cheif whip is pissed at her after her speech.

I've thought she couldn't last before, but I'm pretty sure it's all over for her soon. She's a lame duck, she has zero power over any of her party, even her whips have voted against her last week. It's all a huge farce now.


----------



## kimthecat

mightyboosh said:


> I have one of those old fashioned pitchforks, anyone else? They work wonders in those old films. An angry mob threatening to use those things is usually enough to change policy.


I'll bring my flaming torch


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## KittenKong

emmaviolet said:


> Yeah, she's toast, the DUP are out (even though she really couldn't have held another vote anyway) and she's lost any Conservative backing she did have. Even her cheif whip is pissed at her after her speech.
> 
> I've thought she couldn't last before, but I'm pretty sure it's all over for her soon. She's a lame duck, she has zero power over any of her party, even her whips have voted against her last week. It's all a huge farce now.


It should've been all over for the wicked witch immediately after the last GE where she lost her party their majority. Instead they had faith in her and this is the result, just as I predicted.

However, she does have a horrible habit of survival so I won't be celebrating her removal from office just yet.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> It should've been all over for the wicked witch immediately after the last GE where she lost her party their majority. Instead they had faith in her and this is the result, just as I predicted.
> 
> However, she does have a horrible habit of survival so I won't be celebrating her removal from office just yet.


Just hope for tornado and a house falling on her.

I truly believe she is not well mentally.

FCA demands senior management to be fit and proper, else removed.

Pity can't be reported.
She is obsessed with her Deal and her mission to be MT.
The difference is MT had great respect in Europe and in USA, Kohl and Reagan listened to her.
MT was very sceptical about refendums.

Joe Blogg might have no understanding how economy works and to offer a referendum, without a plan, without telling the honest truth how people will be affected, but promise he will be better off ?

Corbyn bullying Labour to vote for Article 50 and he is no Joe Blogg. Unions happy to support Tory anti EU worker falsehoods, stealing jobs, stealing wages, stealing benefits!!!

All Tory propaganda to cover up that is their government to blame!!!

If Labour had more integrity and a leader who is not at odds with his party...

I blame Tories, not all of them of course, I blame Labour , not everyone there..
I blame English political elite for their self serving, short sighted egoism, their lack of courage and integrity.

Destroying this country.


----------



## rona

We have a local page and someone has put about a trip to the "Put it to the People" march tomorrow. It was put up 9hrs ago and only 3 people have shown any interest. We are only a short train journey to London


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## cheekyscrip

All May really wants is to split the people, split the parliament and take control.
Divide and rule.

No matter how much harm she does in her way. Fanatic woman.

FANATIC.unch


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> Just hope for tornado and a house falling on her.
> 
> I truly believe she is not well mentally.
> 
> FCA demands senior management to be fit and proper, else removed.
> 
> Pity can't be reported.
> She is obsessed with her Deal and her mission to be MT.
> The difference is MT had great respect in Europe and in USA, Kohl and Reagan listened to her.
> MT was very sceptical about refendums.
> 
> Joe Blogg might have no understanding how economy works and to offer a referendum, without a plan, without telling the honest truth how people will be affected, but promise he will be better off ?
> 
> Corbyn bullying Labour to vote for Article 50 and he is no Joe Blogg. Unions happy to support Tory anti EU worker falsehoods, stealing jobs, stealing wages, stealing benefits!!!
> 
> All Tory propaganda to cover up that is their government to blame!!!
> 
> If Labour had more integrity and a leader who is not at odds with his party...
> 
> I blame Tories, not all of them of course, I blame Labour , not everyone there..
> I blame English political elite for their self serving, short sighted egoism, their lack of courage and integrity.
> 
> Destroying this country.


A little more water with it maybe?


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## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> A little more water with it maybe?


She will float man!!! She will!!!:Banghead


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## KittenKong

On the way to London!


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Did she?
> 
> Weird….


No she didn't actually I've just checked, my mistake, I got confused Mille.

It was Mays brexit secretary Steve Barclay who, one minute spoke in favour of asking the EU for a delay, then went on voted against it himself.:Jawdrop And May voted against her own amendment to take no deal off the table. She tabled a motion against a no deal, then whipped MPs to vote AGAINST it & voted against it herself. She still lost! Shambles.


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## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> On the way to London!
> View attachment 397816


Hope you have a great day So wish we were going too x


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## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> She will float man!!! She will!!!:Banghead


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Unions happy to support Tory anti EU worker falsehoods, stealing jobs, stealing wages, stealing benefits!!!


I believe its only Unite stupidly backing brexit. Did you see the joint statement from the TUC & CBI?

Gorgeous Bri nails it:Kiss lol

*Brian Cox*‏:

_The CBI and the TUC, united in their absolute condemnation of the Prime Minister. Will Parliament listen to the representatives of industry - the people who generate the money to pay their wages - and pause this nonsense until we can all find a way forward?_



cheekyscrip said:


> If Labour had more integrity and a leader who is not at odds with his party...


I dont think labour still would have the numbers to block it. And some labour MPs (most of whom are on the right of the party) are staunchly behind leaving the EU. They keep defying the whip & voting with government.



cheekyscrip said:


> orbyn bullying Labour to vote for Article 50


Are you aware Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen, Dominic Grieve, Chuka Umuna etc all voted to trigger article 50 Cheeky? (For what its worth, I think everyone who voted to trigger A50 were reckless to do so until the government had proved it had a flippin plan ! )


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## noushka05

rona said:


> We have a local page and someone has put about a trip to the "Put it to the People" march tomorrow. It was put up 9hrs ago and only 3 people have shown any interest. We are only a short train journey to London


It'll be embarrassing if Put it to the People march gets as big a turn out as March to Leave has for sure:Hilarious

*Led By Donkeys*‏:

_Looks like 60-70 today for @Nigel_Farage's "epic protest march" - one for every ten thousand of us tomorrow (today) ?_


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Finally!!! You've posted something from someone I actually like!
> 
> :Hilarious


Cheesus! Wonders will never cease!









Cheesus


----------



## noushka05

Today of all days its worth reminding ourselves of these wise words.


----------



## KittenKong

Get your free Brexit blue passport cover in today's Daily Express!

On sale at all good Newsagents now!










PS- This is not photoshopped!!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Get your free Brexit blue passport cover in today's Daily Express!
> 
> On sale at all good Newsagents now!
> 
> View attachment 397820
> 
> 
> PS- This is not photoshopped!!!


*How BL**DY stupid*


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> *How BL**DY stupid*


It's what many voted Leave for.

I'll be expecting free Union Flag/The Sun badged stickers for their readers to cover the EU number plates on cars soon.

Oh, has anyone seen the Mini Brexit model with the Union flag shaped rear lights? Utterly nauseating.
:Vomit


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I believe its only Unite stupidly backing brexit. Did you see the joint statement from the TUC & CBI?
> 
> Gorgeous Bri nails it:Kiss lol
> 
> *Brian Cox*‏:
> 
> _The CBI and the TUC, united in their absolute condemnation of the Prime Minister. Will Parliament listen to the representatives of industry - the people who generate the money to pay their wages - and pause this nonsense until we can all find a way forward?_
> 
> I dont think labour still would have the numbers to block it. And some labour MPs (most of whom are on the right of the party) are staunchly behind leaving the EU. They keep defying the whip & voting with government.
> 
> Are you aware Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen, Dominic Grieve, Chuka Umuna etc all voted to trigger article 50 Cheeky? (For what its worth, I think everyone who voted to trigger A50 were reckless to do so until the government had proved it had a flippin plan ! )


I know but Unite has many people and how they justify their stand???
I imagine some voting for Article 50 hopes for Switzerland like solutions.

I knowif May Deal is off ( but like any zombie it will keep coming back however many times buried) and ERG will make sure there is no majority for anything else we are back to No Deal/ May Deal scenario.

I am afraid our political leaders on both sides put fighting for power above the interest of the country.

Not even sure if putting responsibility for s complicated situation on a man on the street is fair too.

Is Corbyn someone who can unite the nation?
He cannot unite his party!!!
He walks away because someone he doesn't like is present????

But Corbyn is backed by Unite if I am right...

I am afraid that much as I don't want Tory gov, DUP gov, BoJo or Loathsome in power 
I wish deeply for another Labour Leader.
Even Ummuna, definitely Starmer.

Labour has to appeal to " middle ground " undecided, they after all make all the difference.

Corbyn went back on his word so many times!!! Remember student fees?
Students will not fall for it again.

Seems none of the party leaders are happy to compromise or to listen and yes, best would be if sensible people of both sides created one because Lib Dems are now obscure after Clegg....


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## grumpy goby

Don't worry guys... Uri's got this...


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## Calvine

rona said:


> only 3 people have shown any interest


I guess that's the three from this thread!
But seriously; I've read a few pieces saying they are expecting hundreds of thousands so we'll see. The papers will hype things up if there's nothing more exciting/interesting to publish.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Get your free Brexit blue passport cover in today's Daily Express!
> 
> On sale at all good Newsagents now!
> 
> View attachment 397820
> 
> 
> PS- This is not photoshopped!!!


I think that is pathetic and embarrassing.

I realise some people don't like the modern world where everything is more global and internationalised, but why do they feel the need to assert their tribal affiliation like that? Is it because they fear the UK will somehow cease to exist?

When England became England did Yorkshire lose its identity?

When the UK became the UK did Scotland and Wales lose their identity?


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> I guess that's the three from this thread!
> But seriously; I've read a few pieces saying they are expecting hundreds of thousands so we'll see. The papers will hype things up if there's nothing more exciting/interesting to publish.


Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march. Still no where near 17 million


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## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march. *Still no where near 17 million *


Do you really you expect that many to turn up, get real, me and OH would love to be there but it's impossible and I'm sure there are many people who would love to be there but it's easy to get down there.


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## Arnie83

rona said:


> Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march.


BBC report 2002: "Around 400,000 people from across the country have marched through central London to highlight the needs of rural communities."

Meanwhile, today ...
A spokesperson for the campaign said: "It is almost impossible to put an exact figure on the size of this immense crowd because it is spilling out across central London. The start of the march at Park Lane has been filled to bursting point and many thousands of people are trying to make their way to Parliament Square through side streets."

They added: "At the time the rally began, people were still arriving in Park Lane. *Our estimate is based on professional expert advice and whatever the exact number, there can be no doubt that this ranks as one of the greatest protests - possibly the biggest ever - that this country has ever seen*. We have no doubt that this march is bigger than the last with our early estimate putting the size of the crowd at *around 1 million.*"​


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march. Still no where near 17 million


Why weren't the supposed 17 million marching with Farage then?

Anyway, couldn't take many photos as I needed to conserve phone power, but this is one of the best placards I saw.


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## MollySmith

rona said:


> Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march. Still no where near 17 million


Ridiculous. I haven't gone but my husband has as someone has to look after our dog. I've been on every march here and in London so far. I take it you joined Nigel on his attempt.


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## MollySmith

Just about the best news article I have read so far
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/brexit-ferry-protest-plymouth-no-2677855


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## Elles

The south west voted mostly remain as did our MPs so Plymouth isn’t the he best place for a brexit demo lol.


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## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Looks like this may equal the numbers gathered for the Liberty and Livelihood march. Still no where near 17 million


I ought to be there but I didn't go. So I suppose that's a bit rubbish but like my colleagues we are busy working because of Brexit.

I am one of many today who are holding up the NHS because there aren't enough nursing staff from Europe or the UK. My other half, his kids and his parents (in their 80s) all got on the coach this morning, one of 3 from here. My cousins left Skye last night. My friend is a police officer. Working.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws said:


> Do you really you expect that many to turn up, get real, me and OH would love to be there but it's impossible and I'm sure there are many people who would love to be there but it's easy to get down there.


Absolutely agree. It's not easy. Mr S said it's very busy. He went with his friends, of the pair of us he's much better on his feet. I would have gone by train as the coaches here have been fully booked for weeks and I cannot do the underground however passionately I care about revoking article 50. Anyway madam still has a bloody great big bandage on her leg.



Elles said:


> The south west voted mostly remain as did our MPs so Plymouth isn't the he best place for a brexit demo lol.


There was a similar thing reported in our paper (we voted 72% remain) for this Monday morning. I fear it won't end well!


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The south west voted mostly remain as did our MPs so Plymouth isn't the he best place for a brexit demo lol.


I thought the South West voted to leave?

Plymouth voted 79 997 to leave compared to 53 458 Remain

https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


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## KittenKong

Pawscrossed said:


> I ought to be there but I didn't go. So I suppose that's a bit rubbish but like my colleagues we are busy working because of Brexit.
> 
> I am one of many today who are holding up the NHS because there aren't enough nursing staff from Europe or the UK. My other half, his kids and his parents (in their 80s) all got on the coach this morning, one of 3 from here. My cousins left Skye last night. My friend is a police officer. Working.


I couldn't go to the last one through having to work myself. This time I was lucky as it coincided with a very rare weekend off.

But you were there in spirit today.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I wish we were with you, 96% of Gibraltar voted to Remain!!!

Basically it is England ( not London) that drag Scotland , NI and Gibraltar out .. while Wales is waking to Reality and not too happy to be Out ( at lessy Single Market and Customs Unit).

So much for comparing EU to Soviet Union.

Labour again demonstrates split personality... now Watson says he will support May Deal in exchange for another referendum?

I really wish Labour got some One Brexit Plan so I can make up my mind....


Yes, high time Tories handed Maybot the ceremonial sword...

Please can we have no clowns, no loathsome witches, no arrogant toffs as PM?
Too much to ask?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Please can we have no clowns, no loathsome witches, no arrogant toffs as PM?
> Too much to ask?












All in one!


----------



## Elles

Plymouth yes, pretty much the rest didn’t iirc and we only have 3 MPs this way who are brexiteers iirc. JRM is one of them. The area, unlike the North, is pretty much remain here really and it includes Devon and Cornwall. We give the Spanish a run for their money on manana and when I say run, we’d all be walking if we could be bothered to get up. Of course as you know, Cornwall (Kernow) has wanted independence for years and they put so much effort into it you’d never notice. :Hilarious

Totnes is the U.K. centre of alternative I’m sure they must have voted remain. 

I don’t think you’d get many wanting to stand out in the cold in Plymouth campaigning for brexit when it’s supposed to have won and be happening. Maybe I’m being unfair lol.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Plymouth yes, pretty much the rest didn't iirc and we only have 3 MPs this way who are brexiteers iirc. JRM is one of them. The area, unlike the North, is pretty much remain here really and it includes Devon and Cornwall. We give the Spanish a run for their money on manana and when I say run, we'd all be walking if we could be bothered to get up. Of course as you know, Cornwall (Kernow) has wanted independence for years and they put so much effort into it you'd never notice. :Hilarious
> 
> Totnes is the U.K. centre of alternative I'm sure they must have voted remain.
> 
> I don't think you'd get many wanting to stand out in the cold in Plymouth campaigning for brexit when it's supposed to have won and be happening. Maybe I'm being unfair lol.


"Supposed" as you said. It is not a race, it clearly was a split vote with a margin of statistical error, advisory anyhow.

It is not an election, party wins and that is that.

Should have been safeguarded. Should have been honest and come with a plan like Scots did.
This is Brexit - after some model agreed and this is Remain.
Calling all obvious consequences a Project Fear?
Tell it to people in Sunderland!!!

I only believe in a second referendum if there is a clear idea what Brexit means and that goes against Remain.

Do you think that being Polish I am a great fan of being ruled by Germany or other EU countries becoming satellites to it?

This is why I think UK should have stayed as not hand the EU to Germany plus France.

But if we were to go Customs Union is a must have arrangement and a form of access to Single Market would be necessary.
Then really we might just as well stay and have our say in EU!!!

Still Customs Union is a must have in any scenario and that is so obvious.

It solves so many Brexit created problems.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> Just about the best news article I have read so far
> https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/brexit-ferry-protest-plymouth-no-2677855


 I think one of them looked like a certain hobbit and one resembled certain vegetable glad to see them both well if a bit desolate...:Troll

Are The People tired of Mr Fruitcake Farage???

No time for jesters when nuclear bunkers are built for No Deal scenario...?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> No time for jesters when nuclear bunkers are built for No Deal scenario...?


What is it about fascists and their love of bunkers?


----------



## grumpy goby

The BBC's flyover of the March shows a pretty impressive turnout.

Brexit: People's Vote march to Parliament Square - sped-up https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47680979


----------



## Elles

grumpy goby said:


> The BBC's flyover of the March shows a pretty impressive turnout.
> 
> Brexit: People's Vote march to Parliament Square - sped-up https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47680979


Ooh that's horrible. Speeding it up like that with so many people is creepy. It looks like a swarm of aliens or zombies from some dystopian, apocalyptic nightmare film. :Jawdrop

I'd like to know how many were brexiteers. That would be the most interesting statistic.


----------



## KittenKong

Very true of many Brexit supporters, as seen on Facebook:


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Very true of many Brexit supporters, as seen on Facebook:
> 
> View attachment 397877
> View attachment 397878


I think the first half of that is quite accurate, in that facts disproving what some people 'know' abut the EU are routinely ignored or shouted down, but the second half is a bit daft.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Plymouth yes, pretty much the rest didn't iirc and we only have 3 MPs this way who are brexiteers iirc. JRM is one of them. The area, unlike the North, is pretty much remain here really and it includes Devon and Cornwall. We give the Spanish a run for their money on manana and when I say run, we'd all be walking if we could be bothered to get up. Of course as you know, Cornwall (Kernow) has wanted independence for years and they put so much effort into it you'd never notice. :Hilarious
> 
> Totnes is the U.K. centre of alternative I'm sure they must have voted remain.
> 
> I don't think you'd get many wanting to stand out in the cold in Plymouth campaigning for brexit when it's supposed to have won and be happening. Maybe I'm being unfair lol.


Totnes voted 53% leave - 46.11 Remain

http://democraticdashboard.com/constituency/totnes/general-election

In the South West Region according to the Electoral Commission, not including Gibraltar, 28 areas voted to leave and only 9 voted to remain.

My family lives in Falmouth which why I know that Cornwall voted overwhelmingly to leave which as my son remarked was rather like shooting themselves in the foot as the region is heavily funded by EU money!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I think the first half of that is quite accurate, in that facts disproving what some people 'know' abut the EU are routinely ignored or shouted down, but the second half is a bit daft.


Many experiments in social psychology show how well people can ignore facts once they made their mind what is right...
Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable and the more you invested emotionally in your stand the more prone to ignore the facts...

May is a very good example.

Some people change their mind if it hits home...If they know they will lose their job for example.

Some even then will redirect the blame.

Now May is doing exactly that : redirecting blame for the Deal fiasco at MPs.

Not that referendum without a plan made by those who wanted Brexit will not end in a mess

Brexit is Brexit I am afraid is not a plan.

Expecting Cameron to come up with Brexit plan was like expecting tsar to come up with plans for October Revolution!!!

Allowing people to imagine any kind of arrangements, any kind of Post EU future was a good tactic to win initially but led exactly to this crisis.

May has some blame but in honestly she had mission impossible.

Some hoped for no more extensive farming, others for open mines, or stop to immigration.... or more money for NHS.

It is not going to happen and if there was a realistic plan people would have known before voting.

I am many good people voted for Brexit and if they what they hoped would not be possible they would not.

Some have enough ability to detach from their emotions and look at the facts.

Some cannot for variety of reasons.

May cannot and this is why she might be gone on Monday...


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Plymouth yes, pretty much the rest didn't iirc and we only have 3 MPs this way who are brexiteers iirc. JRM is one of them. The area, unlike the North, is pretty much remain here really and it includes Devon and Cornwall


This is completely inaccurate. The South West voted overwhelmingly to leave. The exceptions were Exeter & South Hams. And Cornwall, as one of our poorest regions relies heavily on EU funding, has its changed its mind. Likely because its now dawned on many that leaving will hammer their area most of all.

Nationalism rose above pragmatism - https://thinkingcountry.com/2016/06...cornwall-why-did-the-cornish-vote-for-brexit/

*Cornwall has changed its mind on Brexit - and people want another vote*
People in Cornwall say they did not have enough information to make an informed decision in the referendum
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-changed-mind-brexit--2315680

Green = Leave. Blue = Remain










*Devon voters now want to Remain in Europe, major new survey reveals*
15 per cent of those who voted Leave have now changed their minds

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-voters-now-want-remain-1488408


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## Happy Paws2

Does it really matter who voted for what, all that matters now is, they can sort the mess the PM has put us in and just hope Parliament can sort it out one way or another. 

I just don't understand how the PM can't see what a mess she has caused.


----------



## noushka05

:Hilarious Hilarious,

but how can so many decent people be fooled by this con man?

*Led By Donkeys*‏:
_It's day eight of the #MarchToLeave and passionate anti-elitist @Nigel_Farage has a manservant to carry his hat and coat

















_


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Does it really matter who voted for what, all that matters now is, they can sort the mess the PM has put us in and just hope Parliament can sort it out one way or another.
> 
> I just don't understand how the PM can't see what a mess she has caused.


She did not cause so much as the botched referendum.
Well, she didnt help ... but then ERG prezes her with all those Tory party donors who paid for Brexit, The Murdoch, Banks...

May is a loudspeaker and we can kick her but the root of this evil is not May.

This ERG , their donors who want to take control.

We cannot forget that. May might go but they will still press for hard Brexit.

Hope there is a place in hell for corrupted MPs and those who greased their hands or threatened them.

ERG are just loudspeakers for British, Russian etc oligarchs of business who want the control of Britain.

That is pure evil, ruthless, self serving, greedy bunch.

Care nothing about the nation, the country or the people.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think the first half of that is quite accurate, in that facts disproving what some people 'know' abut the EU are routinely ignored or shouted down, but the second half is a bit daft.


Not really. Isn't Brexit all about going back to a time before the, "Immigrants came over", when Sundays were " Special", with a rosy coloured vision of the past as seen in those "Children Film Foundation" films.

Of course Brexit means different things to its supporters, not that many will admit to that seeing, "We knew what we voted for".


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Totnes voted 53% leave - 46.11 Remain
> 
> http://democraticdashboard.com/constituency/totnes/general-election
> 
> In the South West Region according to the Electoral Commission, not including Gibraltar, 28 areas voted to leave and only 9 voted to remain.
> 
> My family lives in Falmouth which why I know that Cornwall voted overwhelmingly to leave which as my son remarked was rather like shooting themselves in the foot as the region is heavily funded by EU money!


Shows how much attention I paid lol. Even Totnes voted to leave? I would never have guessed that in a million years. Most of the people I know in Totnes are vegan environmentalists who vote Green and are into home crafts, Pilates and growing plants. Maybe the people I know aren't typical.


----------



## KittenKong

Reflecting on the remarkable events from yesterday, if Jeremy Corbyn was serious about winning an election he would have swallowed his pride and been at the march. It would've been a golden opportunity for him to have been there that would have won him much support.

Instead he was 'canvassing' in Morecambe for heaven's sake.

This is totally inexcusable and indefensible. 

Like May he needs to go, the sooner he does the better in my view.


----------



## Elles

If TM does go, they’re suggesting Michael Gove as a temporary stand in. Of course Boris has also had a hair cut. 

I like Michael Gove, but I think I’m in the minority.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> If TM does go, they're suggesting Michael Gove as a temporary stand in. Of course Boris has also had a hair cut.
> 
> I like Michael Gove, but I think I'm in the minority.


I think Gove was of late very much waiting for May to go... suddenly he came back to the fold... supporting her Deal, saying how bad NoDeal will be and all the right noises...

He will likely take over next week as May simply cannot show her face in Parliament again....

He was remarkably quiet in criticizing MPs... but never went to abstain...


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> If TM does go, they're suggesting Michael Gove as a temporary stand in. Of course Boris has also had a hair cut.
> 
> I like Michael Gove, but I think I'm in the minority.


You're probably in a minority because I suspect most people are able to see through his facade. Gove is a despicable human being, completely untrustworthy, cruel & dangerous. Gove is Murdochs main man.

*Twenty badgers killed every hour after Michael Gove accelerated cull to stop TB in cattle*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-gove-accelerated-cull/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

*Peter Jukes*‏:

_Michael Gove and Sarah Vine in Number 10. The one man more venal than Boris Johnson. A Murdoch acolyte and Trump fluffer, Gove would bring me back out on the streets again. Permanently.

*Michael Gove and Rupert Murdoch's relationship should be investigated, says Private Eye editor Ian Hislop*
_
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-relationship-times-private-eye-a7356466.html


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


>


Beaten me to it. We all know who the real PM is don't we, and for those 'patriots' he isn't even British.

I doubt very much May will go though unless the men in white coats come for her.

Having made enemies of the EU and now MPs even within her own party I reckon she'll implement a no deal Brexit out of spite.

As the UK lies in ruins she'll probably go on TV to blame everyone but herself for not backing her deal.


----------



## KittenKong

This is Pet Forums! Saw some of these dogs yesterday. Photos courtesy of the Metro, except the last (Facebook).


----------



## Calvine

Isn't Michael Gove the one who left his young son alone in a hotel while he and wife went to a party? The boy was wandering the hotel corridors in the middle of the night I recall. Not sure if he was left as they wanted him to keep the dog company (tho' I maybe imagined the last bit). Can't even look after a child so he'll be ok running the country.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If TM does go, they're suggesting Michael Gove as a temporary stand in. Of course Boris has also had a hair cut.
> 
> I like Michael Gove, but I think I'm in the minority.


Well, there's at least you and Michael Gove!


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Isn't Michael Gove the one who left his young son alone in a hotel while he and wife went to a party? The boy was wandering the hotel corridors in the middle of the night I recall. Not sure if he was left as they wanted him to keep the dog company (tho' I maybe imagined the last bit). Can't even look after a child so he'll be ok running the country.


According to reports:

An 11 year old boy left in the care of staff at a £250 a night guest house, as he'd rather stay there and watch tv than attend the literary function with his parents.

Not exactly a child wandering hotel corridors in the middle of the night while his parents party lol.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> If TM does go, they're suggesting Michael Gove as a temporary stand in. Of course Boris has also had a hair cut.
> 
> *I like Michael Gove, but I think I'm in the minority. *


Yes, I think you are


----------



## KittenKong

Friday evening. Tabatha tests out my T-shirt for the big event on Saturday!


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Very true of many Brexit supporters, as seen on Facebook:
> 
> View attachment 397877
> View attachment 397878


A lot of the Leave voters want 'Brexit', they are worried they won't get 'Brexit' they want them to deliver 'Brexit' as if it's a thing, as if it's a tangible and measurable and definable thing, whereas it really isn't and it can take on many forms, there are different factions who want different versions.

Someone said the other week that they should just tell the Trump supporters that the wall he promised has already been built, those who know it hasn't will know and his supporters will believe it. I kind of think they should do the same with Brexit, just say it's done, we've done Brexit, they've got it, it's all over and the people who are so hellbent on it beyond anything, beyond their own nose (many say they want it even if they lost their job and home) they'll believe we've got what they want.....


----------



## Elles

I don’t think you’ll get away with it. Some might think millions of U.K. residents who voted to leave the Eu are stupid and believe anything they’re told, but I’d ask who really is the stupid one, if they really believe it. 

Remainers don’t think there are brexiteers who want a second vote? No brexiteers have changed their mind? They’re the interesting ones, because they would swing the balance. Remain voters, kids, Eu citizens and various others who can’t vote, but are on the march, are expected to be there. I’d like to know how many are brexiteers, or former brexiteers. I wonder if anyone is polling them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I don't think you'll get away with it. Some might think millions of U.K. residents who voted to leave the Eu are stupid and believe anything they're told, but I'd ask who really is the stupid one, if they really believe it.
> 
> Remainers don't think there are brexiteers who want a second vote? No brexiteers have changed their mind? They're the interesting ones, because they would swing the balance. Remain voters, kids, Eu citizens and various others who can't vote, but are on the march, are expected to be there. I'd like to know how many are brexiteers, or former brexiteers. I wonder if anyone is polling them.


It is good that those who have no vote still have a voice ... why should anyone disdregard under 18 - teenagers have quite a bit of understanding and we talking about their future...
Non British who are residents in UK are people too and their life is affected and will be even more.
They might have no vote but have right to have a voice.

They are People too.

Of the shoe was on the other foot- would you like expats to have no voice and rights wherever in EU they might live? The 2 mln of them?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> It is good that those who have no vote still have a voice ... why should anyone disdregard under 18 - teenagers have quite a bit of understanding and we talking about their future...
> Non British who are residents in UK are people too and their life is affected and will be even more.
> They might have no vote but have right to have a voice.
> 
> They are People too.
> 
> Of the shoe was on the other foot- would you like expats to have no voice and rights wherever in EU they might live? The 2 mln of them?


Where did I say ignore them, or not let them speak? I said we'd expect them to be there, but what's really interesting is how many brexiteers want a second vote and/or have changed their minds. Honestly, I am getting really fed up with my posts being twisted constantly to make out I'm some kind of evil.

I expected better.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Where did I say ignore them, or not let them speak? I said we'd expect them to be there, but what's really interesting is how many brexiteers want a second vote and/or have changed their minds. Honestly, I am getting really fed up with my posts being twisted constantly to make out I'm some kind of evil.
> 
> I expected better.


I never said you personally did!!!
Think you twisted my answer!
You mentioned those taking part in the March and I said this is the way they can voice their opinions that actually matter even if they have no vote!!!

Don't jump to conclusion, my post was not aimed at you at all...
You a rather lovely lady... regardless what is your opinion of moi...

Wild spring flowers as a peace offering?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> They are People too.
> 
> Of the shoe was on the other foot- would you like expats to have no voice and rights wherever in EU they might live? The 2 mln of them?


You quoted my post and said this? Who is the you if not me? I feel there was no reason to say this to me, unless you thought I was being cruel and/or discriminatory to sectors of our community. 

Of course I don't think anyone should have no rights and I wasn't criticising people for taking part in the march or saying they as people were irrelevant. However, I still say that it would be more interesting to count the people who have changed their minds, or who are brexiteers and also marched for a second vote.

If the number is significant it's a very good case for holding one isn't it. My post is supporting the second vote option, not saying people who aren't eligible to vote should be sent away, or locked in a cupboard or something. 

However, current thinking is that Remainers want another crack of the whip and they aren't entitled to one. If brexiteers, or voters who changed their mind want one too, there's less excuse for not doing so. I'd love to know the numbers.


----------



## noushka05

*Robert Peston*‏:

This is sort of extraordinary


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> be sent away, or locked in a cupboard or something.
> 
> However, current thinking is that Remainers want another crack of the whip and they aren't entitled to one. If brexiteers, or voters who changed their mind want one too, there's less excuse for not doing so. I'd love to know the numbers.


Having a vote would see if the country had changed its mind.


----------



## noushka05

Jon Stone:

A play in 3 acts.


----------



## noushka05

*Rowena Kay*‏:

_So the people locked in Chequers deciding the future of the country are (almost entirely) white, male, privately educated and rich.

Good job those elite remoaners didn't get a look in.

...................................................._


----------



## Happy Paws2

In the last summer at Chequers she upset them, I'm not sure what she be able to do now to get them on side.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> It is good that those who have no vote still have a voice ... why should anyone disdregard under 18 - teenagers have quite a bit of understanding and we talking about their future...
> Non British who are residents in UK are people too and their life is affected and will be even more.
> They might have no vote but have right to have a voice.
> 
> They are People too.
> 
> Of the shoe was on the other foot- would you like expats to have no voice and rights wherever in EU they might live? The 2 mln of them?


As the only expat on this thread perhaps it was aimed at me?:Wideyed

I've lived abroad for nearly 40 years, in both non and EU countries. Because of the 15 year rule I'm not allowed to vote in the UK elections and being only a Resident, not a Citizen I'm not allowed to vote in either the Hungarian Elections or the EU elections.

In fact the last time I was allowed to vote was in 1994 when the South African Government temporarily altered the law so that Residents as well as Citizens could vote in an election which changed the country for ever. Naturally, I voted for Mandela and the ANC

And by the way the number of British expats living abroad is estimated to be around 5.5 million of which 1.3 million live in other EU countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/









*Brits Abroad*

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/?gclid=CjwKCAjw-OHkBRBkEiwAoOZql24j7CTyto7-26ignJ0lO9jUukRMJ

*Brits abroad: how many people from the UK live in other EU countries?*


----------



## KittenKong

An example of a Tory before they became the extreme right BNP like party we have today.

As many of you here appear to be true blue Tory supporters perhaps Lord Michael Heseltine is worth listening to?

Brilliant speech.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1988064341502133&id=1917259725249262


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I still say that it would be more interesting to count the people who have changed their minds


There is only one way to find out how many people have changed their minds, (from whichever original view).


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> In the last summer at Chequers she upset them, I'm not sure what she be able to do now to get them on side.


Some reports suggest May has offered to stand down if her party passes her Brexit plan.

Do you think any of them would be too stupid to fall for that one?!


----------



## KittenKong

Thought this was Newsthump but, Awww... What a shame.
:Hilarious

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ruins-commemorative-brexit-calendar-1-5947968


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Some reports suggest May has offered to stand down if her party passes her Brexit plan.
> 
> Do you think any of them would be too stupid to fall for that one?!


A few, perhaps, but I can't see that it will make sufficient difference.

Plus, it seems to me that the major beef they have with the WA is the backstop in the event of no deal being reached wrt Ireland. If May goes, and a more extreme Brexiter takes over, that clearly increases the chances of no deal being reached wrt Ireland and the then legally agreed backstop coming into operation. It doesn't seem to be a logical move for them.


----------



## KittenKong

Uri Gellar by any chance?

https://newsthump.com/2019/03/24/th...gMyFqLSeuzcBBTwSZIArIEuu2TdJyEtZSryNxA6AmtR1I


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> A few, perhaps, but I can't see that it will make sufficient difference.
> 
> Plus, it seems to me that the major beef they have with the WA is the backstop in the event of no deal being reached wrt Ireland. If May goes, and a more extreme Brexiter takes over, that clearly increases the chances of no deal being reached wrt Ireland and the then legally agreed backstop coming into operation. It doesn't seem to be a logical move for them.


Playing devil's advocate the Tories _could _be cautious and opt for a less extreme leader which is what happened when Thatcher was replaced. When IDS was Tory leader they suffered their worst General Election defeat ever.

Each of the Tory far right, which includes May as I don't buy the argument she is a 'moderate', has their own form of evil.

With May it's her obsession with immigration targets. The UK must leave the SM and CU because of that which doesn't meet with the National Interest but Theresa May's own personal prejudices and beliefs.


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> *I don't think you'll get away with it. Some might think millions of U.K. residents who voted to leave the Eu are stupid and believe anything they're told, but I'd ask who really is the stupid one, if they really believe it. *
> 
> Remainers don't think there are brexiteers who want a second vote? No brexiteers have changed their mind? They're the interesting ones, because they would swing the balance. Remain voters, kids, Eu citizens and various others who can't vote, but are on the march, are expected to be there. I'd like to know how many are brexiteers, or former brexiteers. I wonder if anyone is polling them.


I was being facetious.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> However, I still say that it would be more interesting to count the people who have changed their minds, or who are brexiteers and also marched for a second vote.


----------



## Elles

Seems there were barely a handful of people there who voted leave in the referendum, if any. A small group representing ex leave voters, who weren’t all ex leave voters themselves. I’m genuinely surprised, I thought there’d be more and that the media and would actively seek them out. Could be they’re afraid of reprisals of course.


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Seems there were barely a handful of people there who voted leave in the referendum, if any. A small group representing ex leave voters, who weren't all ex leave voters themselves. I'm genuinely surprised, I thought there'd be more and that the media and would actively seek them out. Could be they're afraid of reprisals of course.


Depends if the media wants to seek them out as well. I'd be surprised if any Murdoch outlet would report extensively on that aspect, for example, as he wants Brexit in order to consolidate his already substantial personal influence on the UK.

I do personally know some leave voters who have changed their mind. Some I'd been talking Brexit in negative want-to-remain terms with since the vote and they only recently admitted they originally voted Leave. Guess we'll never know if there's a significant silent majority too embarrassed to talk about it given the Powers That Be don't want to ask the public to confirm this is still what they want, though.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Could be they're afraid of reprisals of course.


If so their fear is unfounded, the only violence has been from brexiters.

As these responses to Goves equally repulsive wife, Sarah Vine's, hateful comment prove.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious


Oh, goody - all down to Dover to witness the miraculous parting of the Channel! 

No? How about all down to London Bridge for the miraculous parting of the Thames, then?

OK, OK - even Moses had to build up to that. How about a nice plague of frogs? Yeah, I guess that _could_ offend the French, but this is Boris we're talking about...

Locusts, maybe? Or would the leading Brexiteers object to that one?

Still no? Well, even Pharaoh's magicians managed to copy the stick-into-snake trick, start there maybe?

NO, a burning bush DOESN'T count, not when you use petrol... 

</sarcasm>


----------



## AlexPed2393

All a little bit late for doing a March to vote again. 

Would have been good if they had this publicity before the vote itself and turnout would have been improved, I think a lot of people didn't bother to vote because it seemed like it would be a landslide for staying in Europe


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Playing devil's advocate *the Tories could be cautious and opt for a less extreme leader which is what happened when Thatcher was replaced.* When IDS was Tory leader they suffered their worst General Election defeat ever.
> 
> Each of the Tory far right, which includes May as I don't buy the argument she is a 'moderate', has their own form of evil.
> 
> With May it's her obsession with immigration targets. The UK must leave the SM and CU because of that which doesn't meet with the National Interest but Theresa May's own personal prejudices and beliefs.


You could well be right, and if it comes to it I hope you are. A risk I'd not be comfortable taking, but then I'm not all that comfortable with May there!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> If so their fear is unfounded, the only violence has been from brexiters.
> 
> As these responses to Goves equally repulsive wife, Sarah Vine's, hateful comment prove.


What a very unpleasant comment by Vine. I wonder if she has any corroborative evidence for her attack.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> All a little bit late for doing a March to vote again.
> 
> Would have been good if they had this publicity before the vote itself and turnout would have been improved, *I think a lot of people didn't bother to vote because it seemed like it would be a landslide for staying in Europe*


I wouldn't disagree, but am I being unfair in concluding that the apparently sacrosanct 'will of the people' should be treated with a large pinch of salt?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't disagree, but am I being unfair in concluding that the apparently sacrosanct 'will of the people' should be treated with a large pinch of salt?


I don't know is all I can say to that.

In regards to the two marches though it's like comparing apples and oranges.

One was organised for a saturday, in the capital city where you turn up for the day and you aren't expected to pay a penny, just turn up, support the cause and all that. great transport links, great weather the lot. Jolly good stuff

The other was advertised terribly as a bloody walk from sunderland to london, who in their right mind will do that apart from a true bunch of maniacs. Taking weeks and weeks to complete. To top it all off it was started on a weekday, so support would be terrible anyway.

Great show by all those at the march, think it was very well organised and from what I hear positive. That's not me saying I agree with their views but still, credit is due


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> What a very unpleasant comment by Vine. I wonder if she has any corroborative evidence for her attack.


Doesn't appear so. Shes just trying to whip up hate & division. More evidence of what a horrible person she is.

* SARAH VINE controversially welcomes the return of fur to Cheltenham*
*https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...fur-Cheltenham.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top*


----------



## noushka05

Jonathan Pie at his brilliant best absolutely, well & truely......... NAILING IT!

(WARNING - RUDE WORDS)

......."_austerity broke the contract"......._


----------



## Magyarmum

Breaking news from the HoC

PM says there's not enough support for a third vote yet .................................

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47689415

*Brexit: Not enough support for Brexit deal vote yet, says PM*


----------



## Elles

They could be afraid of reprisals....

From extremist brexiteers who would call them traitors.


----------



## Elles

Re Sarah Vine.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/in-defence-of-sarah-vine/


----------



## noushka05

emmaviolet said:


> A lot of the Leave voters want 'Brexi't, they are worried they won't get 'Brexit' they want them to deliver 'Brexit' as if it's a thing, as if it's a tangible and measurable and definable thing, whereas it really isn't and it can take on many forms, there are different factions who want different versions.
> 
> Someone said the other week that they should just tell the Trump supporters that the wall he promised has already been built, those who know it hasn't will know and his supporters will believe it. I kind of think they should do the same with Brexit, just say it's done, we've done Brexit, they've got it, it's all over and the people who are so hellbent on it beyond anything, beyond their own nose (many say they want it even if they lost their job and home) they'll believe we've got what they want.....


Its all about winning to hard core leavers. _"We won, get over it!" _I've lost count of the number of times I've seen this thrown at remainers. What they still don't seem to understand, even though we know now for certain, is we've all lost.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Re Sarah Vine.
> 
> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/in-defence-of-sarah-vine/


Defending the indefensible.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> As the only expat on this thread perhaps it was aimed at me?:Wideyed
> 
> I've lived abroad for nearly 40 years, in both non and EU countries. Because of the 15 year rule I'm not allowed to vote in the UK elections and being only a Resident, not a Citizen I'm not allowed to vote in either the Hungarian Elections or the EU elections.
> 
> In fact the last time I was allowed to vote was in 1994 when the South African Government temporarily altered the law so that Residents as well as Citizens could vote in an election which changed the country for ever. Naturally, I voted for Mandela and the ANC
> 
> And by the way the number of British expats living abroad is estimated to be around 5.5 million of which 1.3 million live in other EU countries.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Brits Abroad*
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/?gclid=CjwKCAjw-OHkBRBkEiwAoOZql24j7CTyto7-26ignJ0lO9jUukRMJ
> 
> *Brits abroad: how many people from the UK live in other EU countries?*


Nope, million or so in Spain.

They cannot trust Spanish government. 
Already houses legally bought were bulldozed without compensation... the beach zone...even bought from estate agents and with legal advice.

Spain has the biggest population of expats in EU and Costa del Sol next to us is the most popular habitat...
Spain already attempted to put extra charges for second house for expats, but EU made them take it back... they have to tax EU citizens same as their own under EU rules...
But the moment Britain is out...
Same for income, tax on pensions etc...
So expats round here are indeed very worried and some plan Brex in... 
Which was discussed many times before referendum.... 
Spanish governments tend to be heavy handed and short sighted...


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Nope, million or so in Spain.
> 
> They cannot trust Spanish government.
> Already houses legally bought were bulldozed without compensation... the beach zone...even bought from estate agents and with legal advice.
> 
> Spain has the biggest population of expats in EU and Costa del Sol next to us is the most popular habitat...
> Spain already attempted to put extra charges for second house for expats, but EU made them take it back... they have to tax EU citizens same as their own under EU rules...
> But the moment Britain is out...
> Same for income, tax on pensions etc...
> So expats round here are indeed very worried and some plan Brex in...
> Which was discussed many times before referendum....
> Spanish governments tend to be heavy handed and short sighted...


That's why we didn't buy in Spain in the end and that's without brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

From Parliament: Nothing Has Changed.

No Deal on 12 April or May Deal...

She wants most MPs to change their minds..

The People voted and they cannot change their mind.
She conveniently forgets over 16 mln people and all those who could not vote...
She threatens with No Deal.
Did 17 mln voted for No Deal?
For how many Brexit and making ERG richer is more important than their own jobs?


How many of 17 mln are willing to be much poorer to make chosen few richer?
I know some who voted to Leave but would rather Remain than have no Deal!!!

Referendum was never about crashing out and destroying economy in the process.

There are some who still insist that No Deal will be fine... but even among eager Brexit supporters like Gove there is opinion that it will be really bad.
BoE is independent body responsible for forecasts and they clearly spoken about it.

But obviously they are only experts...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> That's why we didn't buy in Spain in the end and that's without brexit.


Ditto!!! Very nearly bought myself!!!

Spanish friends who lived there dissuaded us.
Imagine we had mortgage in euro!!!!
Now new tax treaty.. just signed!


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Ditto!!! Very nearly bought myself!!!
> 
> Spanish friends who lived there dissuaded us.
> Imagine we had mortgage in euro!!!!
> Now new tax treaty.. just signed!


Brexit will make it worse, that is certain.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Ditto!!! Very nearly bought myself!!!
> 
> Spanish friends who lived there dissuaded us.
> Imagine we had mortgage in euro!!!!
> Now new tax treaty.. just signed!


My daughter in law's family were caught out in the Euro mortgage. Mortgage in euros, Gib pay in sterling. Meant their mortgage practically doubled a few years back. They had to sell up.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> My daughter in law's family were caught out in the Euro mortgage. Mortgage in euros, Gib pay in sterling. Meant their mortgage practically doubled a few years back. They had to sell up.


Never get mortgage in a currency without any income in it...

We are caught anyhow as after Brexit pound crash by 14% and most products coming here from Spain or are bought in Spain...

You have seen the prices in our Morrisons!!!

We already paid quite heavily for Brexit lark and imagine expats with their British pensions in GBP...


----------



## Mrs.Zee

noushka05 said:


> Jonathan Pie at his brilliant best absolutely, well & truely......... NAILING IT!
> 
> (WARNING - RUDE WORDS)
> 
> ......."_austerity broke the contract"......._


That reminded me why I have liked Britain so much. What a witty person! Absolutely brilliant!
Congratulation about the march, that was pretty brilliant too. But will anyone in UK listen? EU will, and who knows, maybe the message will be received among the "grown ups" , who did order May not to lie anymore... that was pretty good too. Not as brilliant as Pie, though, as British can really express themselves.

We will surely miss you, if you are forced to leave. I try to stay optimistic, and keep faith in our leaders, but patience is running thin. May leaving might help, unless the replacement is even worse. At least she is totally incompetent...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

All leave voters are thick. Haha - lots of swearing (again)


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> why should anyone disdregard under 18


We were told the 18 - 24's could not be bothered to get off their arses:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...u-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html

So, unless they have matured somewhat . . . they will be now 21 - 27, but there will by now be a new crowd of 18 - 24's. Are they going to be so much different?


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> We were told the 18 - 24's could not be bothered to get off their arses:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...u-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html
> 
> So, unless they have matured somewhat . . . they will be now 21 - 27, but there will by now be a new crowd of 18 - 24's. Are they going to be so much different?


One would like to think so, given the chaos of the last three years.

But as the Powers That Be seem determined not to ask them, we'll probably never know


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> All leave voters are thick. Haha - lots of swearing (again)


Knowing a few professionals who voted leave I'd disagree all leave voters are thick.

But come on, the Farage March for No Jobs brigade who paid £50 for the privilege of marching with the fascist who abandoned them. The tabloid readers who obey their "news" papers. Lots of pro leave posts on FB with abysmal spelling repeating the soundbites and can't elaborate on "Out Means Out" and "We Voted To Leave"....


----------



## KittenKong

http://huffp.st/OLii4E7


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Re Sarah Vine.
> 
> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/in-defence-of-sarah-vine/


Interesting take on the psychology of winding folks up I guess.

I'd never heard of the woman before the post recently here. And Michael Gove was the secretary of state for education and I work in schools finance.

I really need to get out more....


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> We were told the 18 - 24's could not be bothered to get off their arses:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...u-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html
> 
> So, unless they have matured somewhat . . . they will be now 21 - 27, but there will by now be a new crowd of 18 - 24's. Are they going to be so much different?


It's not only in the UK where the 18 - 24 years old can't be bothered to vote, it's the same throughout the EU with the exception of a few countries where voting is compulsory.

https://youthforeurope.eu/how-to-reconcile-youth-with-the-eu-elections/

*Youngsters have the record of abstention*

Voting by age group in the 2014 EU Elections










Which rather invalidates the Remainers argument that they would have tipped the balance in their favour.

And as for giving 16 years old the vote, if the 18 plus age group can't be bothered to vote what makes anyone think that 16 years old would be more conscientious?


----------



## Elles

I voted in the first GE that happened after I reached voting age. I voted for Maggie of course.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> It's not only in the UK where the 18 - 24 years old can't be bothered to vote,


But then they whine that the result wasn't what they WOULD have voted for (had they taken the time to vote [which they didn't]). It is somewhat comedic, actually.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> as for giving 16 years old the vote, if the 18 plus age group can't be bothered to vote what makes anyone think that 16 years old would be more conscientious?


Answers on a postcard please!!

They would vote if they could get a day off school, as they (some) did for the climate change demo..


----------



## kimthecat

It works both ways . If the Cameron had had the Referendum when they first came back into power after 2010 then I think there would have been a bigger vote for Leave because as the older people that Arnie mentioned would still be alive and the young ones not old enough to vote.
Democracy is allowing to change our minds , well we did . We voted to remain in the 70s and then voted to leave three years ago. 
As I said before , Im not against another referendum . I doubt if I would vote .


----------



## Arnie83

Should there be a further referendum I think the 18-24 turnout would be considerably higher than last time, not only because the profile and import of the subject has been widely aired since 2016 but also because they would be specifically targeted much more vigorously by the Remain side, assuming remain were to be on the ballot.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Should there be a further referendum I think the 18-24 turnout would be considerably higher than last time, not only because the profile and import of the subject has been widely aired since 2016 but also because they would be specifically targeted much more vigorously by the Remain side, assuming remain were to be on the ballot.


Let's put it this way, being 25 and not all that keen on remain. I don't talk about politics with friends.... it's golf, rugby or the weather :Hilarious


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> We were told the 18 - 24's could not be bothered to get off their arses:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...u-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html
> 
> So, unless they have matured somewhat . . . they will be now 21 - 27, but there will by now be a new crowd of 18 - 24's. Are they going to be so much different?


That data was based on a sky tweet which I believe is now thought to be incorrect as it was modelled on the 2015 election. According to other studies the referendum voting percentage of all age ranges up to 54 was approx 65%. This rose to 75% for those between 55-64, then rose again to 90% for those over 65.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

''The government even extended the voting deadline so that the young could register themselves at the last second because three months wasn’t a long enough time period to fill in a five minute form online.''


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398139


Bit late to be saying all of this now when we are a few days away from the original deadline for leaving the EU. 
These arguments should have been brought up so much earlier, more urgently, if they wanted some serious political traction, rather than it all ramping up massively 3 months before we are set to leave in a nearly 3 year process.

I mean come on!!! Common sense dictates that if you see a leak in the dam you fix it then, don't leave it until the last minute before the dam is about to burst


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Bit late to be saying all of this now when we are a few days away from the original deadline for leaving the EU.
> *These arguments should have been brought up so much earlier, more urgently, if they wanted some serious political traction*, rather than it all ramping up massively 3 months before we are set to leave in a nearly 3 year process.
> 
> I mean come on!!! Common sense dictates that if you see a leak in the dam you fix it then, don't leave it until the last minute before the dam is about to burst


Not sure which specific arguments you mean, but generally speaking the chances are they have been raised, only to be casually dismissed with phrases like "remoaners", "we won, you lost - get over it", "it's all Project Fear", "Leave means Leave" etc.

As to the ramping up, people do tend to get exponentially more shouty as something they perceive as impending disaster looms near, particularly if whoever is in charge seems hell-bent on accelerating straight towards it


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Not sure which specific arguments you mean, but generally speaking the chances are they have been raised, only to be casually dismissed with phrases like "remoaners", "we won, you lost - get over it", "it's all Project Fear", "Leave means Leave" etc.


The arguments for another vote. If the petition was created earlier with similar number of applications it would have been talked about in parliament at least.

I'm not saying they haven't been raised, it is the fact that there was no push behind what was being said before. If there was some form of media backing etc to it then it would gain traction. To shout and rave so close to a deadline simply divides a country further as it makes both sides seem militant in their views. Unwilling to give or take either sides point of view, which this thread (not you in particular ) is a brilliant example of


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 398150


I'm all for no coucil tax !


----------



## noushka05

Mrs.Zee said:


> That reminded me why I have liked Britain so much. What a witty person! Absolutely brilliant!
> Congratulation about the march, that was pretty brilliant too. But will anyone in UK listen? EU will, and who knows, maybe the message will be received among the "grown ups" , who did order May not to lie anymore... that was pretty good too. Not as brilliant as Pie, though, as British can really express themselves.
> 
> We will surely miss you, if you are forced to leave. I try to stay optimistic, and keep faith in our leaders, but patience is running thin. May leaving might help, unless the replacement is even worse. At least she is totally incompetent...


He's great isnt he? We might be about to be steamrollered into oblivion by a bunch of extremists hell bent on hijacking our country but at least we've still got our sense of humour Hubby & me went to see Jonathan Pie last year when he came to Sheffield. He was really good & so was the warm up act!

Apparently Parliament has voted to take control from the government now, so good news today, but lord knows how it will all pan out. I'm certainly not building my hopes up. I will miss you all too should they drag us out Brexit/the tories are destroying this country. I don't want to be an inward looking little cesspit grovelling for trade deals , I want to be part of our EU community, thats where we belong, with our neighbours. I can relate to Jonathan Pie-_ I always considered myself to be a bit of a EU sceptic, now I'm a UK sceptic._

The luntatic fringe are jostling for position to replace the maybot. These are the disaster capitalists. How the hell have we come to this??

Anyway, Chunkys rundown on the latest on our brexitshambles might make you laugh:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> The arguments for another vote. If the petition was created earlier with similar number of applications it would have been talked about in parliament at least.
> 
> I'm not saying they haven't been raised, it is the fact that there was no push behind what was being said before. *If there was some form of media backing etc to it then it would gain traction*. To shout and rave so close to a deadline simply divides a country further as it makes both sides seem militant in their views. Unwilling to give or take either sides point of view, which this thread (not you in particular ) is a brilliant example of


Given that the biggest media moguls back Brexit (primarily for reasons of personal power gain), that's not really going to happen...

It's also only been in very recent months that No Deal has even been talked about as a real possibility, let alone bandied about as the option that everyone who voted leave really wanted (a claim which I sincerely doubt to rooted in reality) - and for the first 18 months post-triggering Article 50 businesses were repeatedly and emphatically reassured there WOULD be a deal of some kind. Two years would have been tight timeframe for fully preparing for a No Deal Brexit anyway, assuming that had been the declared intent from the moment Article 50 was triggered. Instead Our Glorious Leaders have spent the best part of those two years fighting amongst themselves and pinballing from one bizzare position to another, and now expect the country to be fully prepared for something they STILL haven't actually defined.

People are therefore getting concerned that certain key areas they rely on every day will not be prepared for whatever Brexit comes along, let alone a No Deal Brexit (and they are right).


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Bit late to be saying all of this now when we are a few days away from the original deadline for leaving the EU.
> These arguments should have been brought up so much earlier, more urgently, if they wanted some serious political traction, rather than it all ramping up massively 3 months before we are set to leave in a nearly 3 year process.
> 
> I mean come on!!! Common sense dictates that if you see a leak in the dam you fix it then, don't leave it until the last minute before the dam is about to burst


As more & more things are coming to light, its probably dawning of many people that this shambolic government is not only recklessly gambling with their futures & livelihoods.......but their lives.

*Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford
_A real honour to speak out today for the NHS at #PeoplesVoteMarch

You can be pro-Brexit, or pro-NHS, but not both.

And for me, it's patients first, every time








_


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Given that the biggest media moguls back Brexit (primarily for reasons of personal power gain), that's not really going to happen...


Social media on all platforms is heavily biased against brexit (think facebook, twitter and instagram) and that is where a vast amount of people get their news nowadays. Plus marketing there is relatively cheap compared to print.
So is the BBC which many take as gospel.



noushka05 said:


> As more & more things are coming to light, its probably dawning of many people that this shambolic government is not only recklessly gambling with their futures & livelihoods.......but their lives.
> 
> *Rachel Clarke*‏Verified account @doctor_oxford
> _A real honour to speak out today for the NHS at #PeoplesVoteMarch
> 
> You can be pro-Brexit, or pro-NHS, but not both.
> 
> And for me, it's patients first, every time
> _


Don't know what you are trying to say, apart from what you have already posted several times (gazillions) in regards to the NHS & Brexit


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Don't know what you are trying to say, apart from what you have already posted several times (gazillions) in regards to the NHS & Brexit


Rachel Clarkes words could not be clearer. And its likely a many people have reached the same obvious conclusion.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Rachel Clarkes words could not be clearer. And its likely a many people have reached the same obvious conclusion.


Once again it is nigh on impossible to get an objective point of view in regards to the NHS. A woman who most likely voted remain and works for the NHS at a decent level, says that remaining in the EU will save the NHS...

I'm not saying I know who to get a quote from in regards to the NHS & Brexit but I'm just putting it out there


----------



## noushka05

Well well well. Seems Mogg & co have changed their minds. I wonder why ? lol

Of course these first class hypocrites dont think country should be allowed another vote though.

Appears hes now in favour of becoming a slave state

Hilarious watching the brextremist charlatans falling out. Popcorn anyone?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110487498562641920*Leave.EU*‏Verified account Replying to @Jacob_Rees_Mogg

Hi @Jacob_Rees_Mogg, a reminder of what you've said:

"Slave state"✅
"Divides our country"✅
"Doesn't commit on manifesto"✅
"Locked in Customs Union"✅
"Allowing ECJ to continue"✅
"Paying £39bn for a vacuous political statement that could mean anything to anybody✅



AlexPed2393 said:


> Once again it is nigh on impossible to get an objective point of view in regards to the NHS. A woman who most likely voted remain and works for the NHS at a decent level, says that remaining in the EU will save the NHS...
> 
> I'm not saying I know who to get a quote from in regards to the NHS & Brexit but I'm just putting it out there


Pretty much the entire medical community says the same Alex. TBQH you don't even need to be an expert to reach the logical conclusion that leaving euratom, the ema, sm & cu etc it going to have a negative impact on our health service. The Lancet impact studies are peer reviewed by the way .


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> He's great isnt he? We might be about to be steamrollered into oblivion by a bunch of extremists hell bent on hijacking our country but at least we've still got our sense of humour Hubby & me went to see Jonathan Pie last year when he came to Sheffield. He was really good & so was the warm up act!
> 
> Apparently Parliament has voted to take control from the government now, so good news today, but lord knows how it will all pan out. I'm certainly not building my hopes up. I will miss you all too should they drag us out Brexit/the tories are destroying this country. I don't want to be an inward looking little cesspit grovelling for trade deals , I want to be part of our EU community, thats where we belong, with our neighbours. I can relate to Jonathan Pie-_ I always considered myself to be a bit of a EU sceptic, now I'm a UK sceptic._
> 
> The luntatic fringe are jostling for position to replace the maybot. These are the disaster capitalists. How the hell have we come to this??
> 
> Anyway, Chunkys rundown on the latest on our brexitshambles might make you laugh:Hilarious





noushka05 said:


> He's great isnt he? We might be about to be steamrollered into oblivion by a bunch of extremists hell bent on hijacking our country but at least we've still got our sense of humour Hubby & me went to see Jonathan Pie last year when he came to Sheffield. He was really good & so was the warm up act!
> 
> Apparently Parliament has voted to take control from the government now, so good news today, but lord knows how it will all pan out. I'm certainly not building my hopes up. I will miss you all too should they drag us out Brexit/the tories are destroying this country. I don't want to be an inward looking little cesspit grovelling for trade deals , I want to be part of our EU community, thats where we belong, with our neighbours. I can relate to Jonathan Pie-_ I always considered myself to be a bit of a EU sceptic, now I'm a UK sceptic._
> 
> The luntatic fringe are jostling for position to replace the maybot. These are the disaster capitalists. How the hell have we come to this??
> 
> Anyway, Chunkys rundown on the latest on our brexitshambles might make you laugh:Hilarious


Superb! Made me laugh when hearing about splits within the Tory hard Brexit camp too.

I'm enjoying this.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> I'm all for no coucil tax !


SO AM I? WHAT IS IT????????


----------



## KittenKong

We need no lectures from this convicted thug who's inciting violence here
















https://www.independent.co.uk/news/boycott-found-guilty-of-assaulting-woman-friend-1184088.html


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> SO AM I? WHAT IS IT????????


Beats me, but I've got enough other taxes to pay as it is!


----------



## kimthecat

Looks like the kids are very upset about Article 13 being passed.

 *'chinooo*‏ @*tylerroche2013* 23m23 minutes ago

Ahahahahah I never thought I'd say this but I'm now pro Brexit because of #*article13*

 *LukeH*‏ @*LukeHorde* 39m39 minutes ago

So glad that the EU is slowly turning into North Korea, what absolute bellends thought this would be a good idea? Honestly, I would have voted remain on this whole Brexit thing but if the EU wants to go down this route then count me the absolute **** out. #*Article13*


*Joe Cluney*‏ @*gryph1418* 3h3 hours ago
UK: does a Brexit
The World: lol stupid UK
EU: #*Article13*
The World: I dunno man maybe UK is onto something.

and one for KittenKong 

 *Kevin H Universe*‏ @*hank2188* 2m2 minutes ago

Didnt know *hitler *controlled europe again #*SaveYourInternet* #*SaveTheInternet* #*article13*


----------



## KittenKong

God, I've never laughed so much!
You'd think they would do a little research before posting?
:Hilarious


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> God, I've never laughed so much!
> You'd think they would do a little research before posting?
> :Hilarious
> View attachment 398157
> View attachment 398158


It`s got to meant as a joke, no one could be that stupid surely!


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the kids are very upset about Article 13 being passed.
> 
> *'chinooo*‏ @*tylerroche2013* 23m23 minutes ago
> 
> Ahahahahah I never thought I'd say this but I'm now pro Brexit because of #*article13*
> 
> *LukeH*‏ @*LukeHorde* 39m39 minutes ago
> 
> So glad that the EU is slowly turning into North Korea, what absolute bellends thought this would be a good idea? Honestly, I would have voted remain on this whole Brexit thing but if the EU wants to go down this route then count me the absolute **** out. #*Article13*
> 
> 
> *Joe Cluney*‏ @*gryph1418* 3h3 hours ago
> UK: does a Brexit
> The World: lol stupid UK
> EU: #*Article13*
> The World: I dunno man maybe UK is onto something.
> 
> and one for KittenKong
> 
> *Kevin H Universe*‏ @*hank2188* 2m2 minutes ago
> 
> Didnt know *hitler *controlled europe again #*SaveYourInternet* #*SaveTheInternet* #*article13*


https://capx.co/the-eus-censorious-copyright-directive-will-create-two-internets/?
omhide=true&utm_source=CapX+briefing&utm_campaign=f36f06f8e5-EMAIL_

*The EU's censorious copyright directive will create two internets*


----------



## cheekyscrip

3dogs2cats said:


> It`s got to meant as a joke, no one could be that stupid surely!


Not necessarily.... think Einstein said there no limits to two things only: Universe and human stupidity (but he is not sure as to Universe...)....

We had Welsh farmers and good people of Sunderland supporting Brexit...

Not all of course but still!!!

We have people who including Mrs May stating that after Brexit Non EU immigration will fall!!!
After all those new deals- it will reduce number of visas for all those countries and obtaining visas will be tougher?

There are people in UK who genuinely believe that ERG and JRM actually care about common people!!!

That foreign students should be included in immigration count and therefore we should stop them from coming to study in UK!!!

That only EU professionals with income above £50 k should be given work permit!!!

That Brexit will mean more money for NHS!!!!

I know someone who while visiting Hungary ( not you MM) stated something about foreigners in UK and her Hungarian host told her " But here you are a foreigner yourself ".
The good lady smiled benevolently "I cannot be a foreigner ever, you must understand I AM BRITISH!"
Saying that I am sure every nation has their quota of fools... and their own Pied Pipers...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the kids are very upset about Article 13 being passed.
> 
> *'chinooo*‏ @*tylerroche2013* 23m23 minutes ago
> 
> Ahahahahah I never thought I'd say this but I'm now pro Brexit because of #*article13*
> 
> *LukeH*‏ @*LukeHorde* 39m39 minutes ago
> 
> So glad that the EU is slowly turning into North Korea, what absolute bellends thought this would be a good idea? Honestly, I would have voted remain on this whole Brexit thing but if the EU wants to go down this route then count me the absolute **** out. #*Article13*
> 
> 
> *Joe Cluney*‏ @*gryph1418* 3h3 hours ago
> UK: does a Brexit
> The World: lol stupid UK
> EU: #*Article13*
> The World: I dunno man maybe UK is onto something.
> 
> and one for KittenKong
> 
> *Kevin H Universe*‏ @*hank2188* 2m2 minutes ago
> 
> Didnt know *hitler *controlled europe again #*SaveYourInternet* #*SaveTheInternet* #*article13*


Hahaha. The kids, whose futures have been ruined by old leave voters, deciding that maybe the EU is actually pretty crap now.

Toys right out of the pram.


----------



## cheekyscrip

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Hahaha. The kids, whose futures have been ruined by old leave voters, deciding that maybe the EU is actually pretty crap now.
> 
> Toys right out of the pram.


All that very much in line with GDPR... which is a bit of dubious blessing of yes , you have to give permission, but if you not then you cannot access this or that so in practice it still benefits those who get your permission not really protecting you...

But I am not a lawyer... I understand though that songs , books, news are products and legally there is intelectual property ownership...

Would you buy a CD if you can get it all on YouTube?
No idea how to answer that...


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> God, I've never laughed so much!
> You'd think they would do a little research before posting?
> :Hilarious
> View attachment 398157
> View attachment 398158


I'm with 5pets; that's got to be a mickey-take.


----------



## KittenKong

If the EU didn't act first than someone else would most certainly will.

Witness the copyright info on your DVD about unauthorised copying and distribution which is a _criminal offence _under copyright law *especially in the USA.
*
If I was to upload copyright material onto You Tube I could be liable for extradition to the US to face charges. I understand this has already happened to some people.

The EU are being cautious, that's all. They don't want to be seen as enablers or condoning in copyright violation.

Do you think a post Brexit UK government would ignore that, seeing they want a closer than ever relationship with the US? I doubt that very much!

If a person makes pirate copies of a DVD or record that is illegal FACT would have your guts for garters _even if provided free of charge. _I remember Bob Monkhouse being prosecuted, as a film collector, simply for lending a film print to someone in the late '70s.

Recently, a group of peiple making pirate copies of rare records were raided and prosecuted.

Using their argument, Isn't uploading such material on You Tube the same as making an unauthorised pirate copy? It's a miracle You Tube have got away with it for so long.

I'm reminded of the Marine Offences Act of 1967 which forced very popular off shore radio stations like Radio London off the air. Not surprisingly the move proved to be unpopular. With the Act orchestrated by a certain Anthony Wedgewood Benn the Labour government of the time were blamed for the demise of the popular stations in favour of a part time alternative set up by the BBC. With 18-year-olds allowed to vote in a GE for the first time in 1970 they punished that government by electing Ted Heath's Tories.

Nevertheless it was Margaret Thatcher's Tories who tightened up the original Labour Act further which led to the famous raid of the Radio Caroline Ross Revenge ship in 1989 even though it was broadcasting in International waters.

The only thing the EU are 'guilty' of is looking ahead.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I think best best candidate for new PM is Dyson ... they know how to leave swiftly...


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> If the EU didn't act first than someone else would most certainly will.
> 
> Witness the copyright info on your DVD about unauthorised copying and distribution which is a _criminal offence _under copyright law *especially in the USA.
> *
> If I was to upload copyright material onto You Tube I could be liable for extradition to the US to face charges. I understand this has already happened to some people.
> 
> The EU are being cautious, that's all. They don't want to be seen as enablers or condoning in copyright violation.
> 
> Do you think a post Brexit UK government would ignore that, seeing they want a closer than ever relationship with the US? I doubt that very much!
> 
> If a person makes pirate copies of a DVD or record that is illegal FACT would have your guts for garters _even if provided free of charge. _I remember Bob Monkhouse being prosecuted, as a film collector, simply for lending a film print to someone in the late '70s.
> 
> Recently, a group of peiple making pirate copies of rare records were raided and prosecuted.
> 
> Using their argument, Isn't uploading such material on You Tube the same as making an unauthorised pirate copy? It's a miracle You Tube have got away with it for so long.
> 
> I'm reminded of the Marine Offences Act of 1967 which forced very popular off shore radio stations like Radio London off the air. Not surprisingly the move proved to be unpopular. With the Act orchestrated by a certain Anthony Wedgewood Benn the Labour government of the time were blamed for the demise of the popular stations in favour of a part time alternative set up by the BBC. With 18-year-olds allowed to vote in a GE for the first time in 1970 they punished that government by electing Ted Heath's Tories.
> 
> Nevertheless it was Margaret Thatcher's Tories who tightened up the original Labour Act further which led to the famous raid of the Radio Caroline Ross Revenge ship in 1989 even though it was broadcasting in International waters.
> 
> The only thing the EU are 'guilty' of is looking ahead.


It's a token gesture at best. Impossible to police and totally not thought through. Filtering doesn't work.

If the council passes it in April, then it's a sad day for the Internet on the whole and the only people that benefit are big corporations and the big media companies.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Ancestry.com


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm with 5pets; that's got to be a mickey-take.


Did make me laugh though. The government are certainly acting like the latter, as if opponents to Brexit don't exist. The spelling and grammar are far too good as well.

As for the first I wouldn't be surprised if that was genuine. Some do get confused as to whether the clocks go forward or back.

Many years ago I was told by a, 'Know it all', the clocks went back at BST and would not listen to anyone when corrected on the matter.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on FB.
Clearly, it looks like UK citizens are going to need work permits to work in former neighbouring countries in the future:


So, like many others, I got an email telling me to f*** off because the government aren't listening. Apparently I was told that the government would definitely act on the result of the referendum. So basically, it WAS a binding referendum. So much for the House of Lords saying it couldn't be revoked due to all the cheating because it was non binding.
I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum as I spend too much time living overseas. But I was allowed to become unemployable as the vast majority of my employers are European and won't touch a brit with a barge pole at the moment as they can't work in Europe any more. No say in it, just forget being a European citizen.
I am angry. Very angry. I was proud to be British once. Now I couldn't really give a hoot. I wonder if I can become Greek? Or French? German wouldn't be at all bad, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch.... Really I don't care so long as I am a European.

The only way that I can regain trust in Democracy is for the UK to be democratic and give me a vote. And give the vote to millions just like me who were disenfranchised. Don't tell me that three quarters of the electorate voted, they didn't. Millions of us were not allowed to.
Undermining democracy? What a load of tosh.
A bankrupt government with bankrupt ideas leading the UK into bankruptcy. PAH!


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> It's a token gesture at best. Impossible to police and totally not thought through. Filtering doesn't work.
> 
> If the council passes it in April, then it's a sad day for the Internet on the whole and the only people that benefit are big corporations and the big media companies.


Not something I support myself personally speaking, but I was looking at matters in the eyes of the big media corporations and the law. It was inevitable someone had to lead the way. If it wasn't the EU it would've been someone else.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Hahaha. The kids, whose futures have been ruined by old leave voters, deciding that maybe the EU is actually pretty crap now.
> 
> Toys right out of the pram.


Of course they'll blame the EU for this as the Wilson government were blamed for outlawing offshore radio in 1967.

These things are, sadly inevitable. Germany passed a similar law in 1969 with Holland in 1974 that saw the end of Radio Veronica.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

@kimthecat


samuelsmiles3 said:


> Hahaha. The kids, whose futures have been ruined by old leave voters, deciding that maybe the EU is actually pretty crap now.
> 
> Toys right out of the pram.





KittenKong said:


> Of course they'll blame the EU for this as the Wilson government were blamed for outlawing offshore radio in 1967.
> 
> These things are, sadly inevitable. Germany passed a similar law in 1969 with Holland in 1974 that saw the end of Radio Veronica.


Don't tar all kids with the same brush. They can still be critical of the EU for Article 13 whilst simultaneously recognising leaving the EU will have terrible implications for their futures. I don't think anyone believes the EU is perfect - just far superior to the alternative.

And anyone who believes by leaving the EU we will escape this legislation, think again. Neoliberals support censorship of plebs. https://leftfootforward.org/2019/03...untarily-implement-controversial-eu-meme-ban/

EU member states will have two years to implement the law. Interestingly though - despite Brexit - the regulations are still expected to be implemented by the UK.

.........................


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Superb! Made me laugh when hearing about splits within the Tory hard Brexit camp too.
> 
> I'm enjoying this.
> 
> View attachment 398152


Its great isnt it? Farage is spitting feathers:Hilarious

Great responses here on the subject. We're in this mess because millions of people listened to selfserving opportunist like Mogg & Farage above experts.

*James O'Brien*‏:
_Rees Mogg has just urinated all over his forelock-tugging fans. Today, many of them will thank him for the honour & claim it's what they voted for in 2016.

*Brian Cox*‏:

Rees-Mogg wishes to vote again (for a third time) because the information he has access to and the circumstances have changed and he's changed his mind. Why is this not an arguement for also putting the final deal to a public vote to assess if they agree with his change of mind?

*Femi*‏:

Liar. You're simply a liar. No shame. Just straight up lying to the British people. You already admitted that the Brexit deal is worse than Membership because 
it means we have less sovereignty than EU members. You're now arguing to turn us into what YOU called a SLAVE STATE!


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110480934380412930
......................

....................................._


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Seen on FB.
> Clearly, it looks like UK citizens are going to need work permits to work in former neighbouring countries in the future:
> 
> So, like many others, I got an email telling me to f*** off because the government aren't listening. Apparently I was told that the government would definitely act on the result of the referendum. So basically, it WAS a binding referendum. So much for the House of Lords saying it couldn't be revoked due to all the cheating because it was non binding.
> I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum as I spend too much time living overseas. But I was allowed to become unemployable as the vast majority of my employers are European and won't touch a brit with a barge pole at the moment as they can't work in Europe any more. No say in it, just forget being a European citizen.
> I am angry. Very angry. I was proud to be British once. Now I couldn't really give a hoot. I wonder if I can become Greek? Or French? German wouldn't be at all bad, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch.... Really I don't care so long as I am a European.
> 
> The only way that I can regain trust in Democracy is for the UK to be democratic and give me a vote. And give the vote to millions just like me who were disenfranchised. Don't tell me that three quarters of the electorate voted, they didn't. Millions of us were not allowed to.
> Undermining democracy? What a load of tosh.
> A bankrupt government with bankrupt ideas leading the UK into bankruptcy. PAH!


This to me reads as "I am very very angry no-one shares my point of view and I can't accept it"


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> This to me reads as "I am very very angry no-one shares my point of view and I can't accept it"


Seems to me there is an element of frustration that in what was, apparently, a triumph for democracy, so many people like this were denied a vote.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Seems to me there is an element of frustration that in what was, apparently, a triumph for democracy, so many people like this were denied a vote.


It's more he chose to live abroad (in the EU) for god knows how long, essentially losing his UK voting rights for not living in the UK for long enough. Then he gets all annoyed that he can't vote in a country he doesn't really live in any more.

You can't have your cake and eat it


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are going to watch the debate and vote this afternoon, but I'm really not sure sure why they are having one as she doesn't have to take any notice of it and round three on her deal is coming round again


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Common sense dictates that if you see a leak in the dam you fix it then, don't leave it until the last minute before the dam is about to burst


I rather like this analogy!!


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's more he chose to live abroad (in the EU) for god knows how long, essentially losing his UK voting rights for not living in the UK for long enough. Then he gets all annoyed that he can't vote in a country he doesn't really live in any more.
> 
> You can't have your cake and eat it


Was he told before he chose to live in another part of the EU - which the UK's membership allowed him to do - that he would lose his voting rights on constitutional matters that would directly affect him?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Was he told before he chose to live in another part of the EU - which the UK's membership allowed him to do - that he would lose his voting rights on constitutional matters that would directly affect him?


I don't know, but once again it comes under common sense that if you move away you can't vote after a period of time, no matter how big or small the issue. Why did he not chase up getting voting rights etc. in the country he decided to move to?

I get what you are saying totally, but people do need to take these things into consideration and become more liable for themselves, setting them self up for the future and not just hoping it'll all be hunky dory.

I do know however that my dad can now no longer vote for anything to do with Norway no matter how big the decision.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> I rather like this analogy!!


Like when being in your own home, you see a mess you clean it. You don't leave it to stain the carpet or warp the wooden floor


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398225


Think I've now put you under the category of troll. Relentless reels of information and unwilling to engage in conversation with anyone. Living in your own echo chamber where all you hear is what you want to hear, so it must be right


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Was he told before he chose to live in another part of the EU - which the UK's membership allowed him to do - that he would lose his voting rights on constitutional matters that would directly affect
> him?


Considering it's been the law since 1985 he's had plenty of time to find out!

You can hardly blame someone else if you don't do your homework properly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1985

*The Representation of the People Act 1985 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom concerning British electoral law.*


----------



## KittenKong

I don't like the man, but good for him for speaking out.

The "Party of business", with the exception of Boris Johnson's expletives, should be listening to him.









https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/24/intl_business/richard-branson-new-brexit-vote/index.html


----------



## KittenKong

Got this Email from Cats Protection


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Think I've now put you under the category of troll. Relentless reels of information and unwilling to engage in conversation with anyone. Living in your own echo chamber where all you hear is what you want to hear, so it must be right


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Like when being in your own home, you see a mess you clean it. You don't leave it to stain the carpet or warp the wooden floor


Oh, absolutely. And people have indeed been pointing out the various messes, only to find the landlords claim they're actually desireable design features that don't need dealing with (or, to refer back to the leaking dam analogy, a 'water feature'  )...


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Oh, absolutely. And people have indeed been pointing out the various messes, only to find the landlords claim they're actually desireable design features that don't need dealing with (or, to refer back to the leaking dam analogy, a 'water feature'  )...


Thought everyone loved a fountain in their back garden pond?


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Thought everyone loved a fountain in their back garden pond?


Fountain, yes. Burst water main, not so much!


----------



## noushka05

Our own government ignores us remainers, but the EU is listening 

*Donald Tusk*‏Verified account @eucopresident
_Appeal to EP: You should be open to a long extension, if the UK wishes to rethink its strategy. 6 million people signed the petition, 1 million marched. 
They may not feel sufficiently represented by UK Parliament but they must feel represented by you. 
Because they are Europeans._

Liked
59K

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏:
_The seed for Britain's return to the European Union was planted last weekend by marching in London & nearly six million signing the article 50 petition.
We need a deep EU-UK relationship that one day, I'm pretty sure, will lead Britain back into the family of European nations_

And Guy is rather witty too

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏:
_
I'm surprised to see you here, Mr. Farage. I thought you were marching 200 miles for the leave campaign? How many did you do? 2 miles! You remind me more & more of Field Marshal Haig in Blackadder, sitting safely in his office, while his people are walking in the cold & the rain_.


28,435 likes


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> And Guy is rather witty too
> 
> *Guy Verhofstadt*‏:
> _
> I'm surprised to see you here, Mr. Farage. I thought you were marching 200 miles for the leave campaign? How many did you do? 2 miles! You remind me more & more of Field Marshal Haig in Blackadder, sitting safely in his office, while his people are walking in the cold & the rain_.


The amount of times this guy has been utterly obliterated by Farage and many other people within the European Parliament in conversation far outweighs this comment


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> The amount of times this guy has been utterly obliterated by Farage and many other people within the European Parliament in conversation far outweighs this comment


You have got to be joking. Farage is nasty little racist, a serial liar & a national embarrassment. The harm hes done to this country is off the scale.

Seb Dance is a legend for calling him out


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You have got to be joking. Farage is nasty little racist, a serial liar & a national embarrassment. The harm hes done to this country is off the scale.
> 
> Seb Dance is a legend for calling him out


Just because I said Farage ruined someone in a debate doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. 
All those graphics you posted earlier saying A spoke to B and B spoke to C, the C spoke to D. So A must agree with D..... seems a bit like a repetition


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just because I said Farage ruined someone in a debate doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.


Hang on, Farage ruined someone in a debate? With actual facts and well argued, coherent points?!? 

(just kidding!   )


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Hang on, Farage ruined someone in a debate? With actual facts and well argued, coherent points?!?
> 
> (just kidding!   )


Tis a terrible thing but it does happen from time to time :Hilarious

Since he is our main voice in the European parliament, who else would I rely on to do some roasting


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Tis a terrible thing but it does happen from time to time :Hilarious


Well, give me a heads up next time, I've missed the last few Flying Pigs sightings... 



AlexPed2393 said:


> Since he is our main voice in the European parliament, who else would I rely on to do some roasting


One minor point of correction - 'loudest' != 'main'


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just because I said Farage ruined someone in a debate doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.
> All those graphics you posted earlier saying A spoke to B and B spoke to C, the C spoke to D. So A must agree with D..... seems a bit like a repetition


What Jesthar says:Cat

Whilst we're on the horrible subject. Led by Donkeys are doing sterling work trolling the charlatan.

*Led By Donkeys*‏ @ByDonkeys 
_While Farage had a pint yesterday we played footage of him calling for a 2nd ref & campaigning for a man credibly accused of sexually assaulting children. The mic on our camera didn't pick everything up so we made this so you can see & hear it as clearly as Farage saw & heard it.


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109862766733656064
..........

*Led By Donkeys*‏ @ByDonkeys Mar 26
Wonder what she's thinking? Hey @Nigel_Farage, what do you reckon? (Billboard location: Chatham, Kent)










_


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> What Jesthar says:Cat
> 
> Whilst we're on the horrible subject. Led by Donkeys are doing sterling work trolling the charlatan.
> 
> *Led By Donkeys*‏ @ByDonkeys
> _While Farage had a pint yesterday we played footage of him calling for a 2nd ref & campaigning for a man credibly accused of sexually assaulting children. The mic on our camera didn't pick everything up so we made this so you can see & hear it as clearly as Farage saw & heard it.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109862766733656064
> ..........
> 
> *Led By Donkeys*‏ @ByDonkeys Mar 26
> Wonder what she's thinking? Hey @Nigel_Farage, what do you reckon? (Billboard location: Chatham, Kent)
> 
> _


Pretty sure @Jesthar is agreeing with me in a tongue in cheek way... yes he is a prat but that doesn't mean he can't dismantle people and make them look silly too


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Pretty sure @Jesthar is agreeing with me in a tongue in cheek way... yes he is a prat but that doesn't mean he can't dismantle people and make them look silly too


Really? I guess I misunderstood Jesthar's posts then.

Farage makes himself look like an idiot with the garbage he comes out with. Its embarrassing to watch for me. All I come away thinking is I hope they don't think we're all as obnoxious, hypocritical and ignorant in this country.


----------



## Magyarmum

Breaking News ......

Rumour hath it that ......

TM has said she won't negotiate the next stage if her deal is backed and she can see this stage through


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Pretty sure @Jesthar is agreeing with me in a tongue in cheek way... yes he is a prat but that doesn't mean he can't dismantle people and make them look silly too


Not really, all he usually achieves is to make himself look foolish.

I prefer my national spokespeople to be of the reasoned, rational, factual and respectful debating types, not purveyors of ranty diatribes. The day Mr Farage manages to be the former type then never mind the flying pigs, I strongly suspect Satan will be skating to work...


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Breaking News ......
> 
> Rumour hath it that ......
> 
> TM has said she won't negotiate the next stage if her deal is backed and she can see this stage through


Not rumour. Confirmed. TM will step down if her deal is voted through. She hasn't given a date yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47725529


----------



## Happy Paws2

The PM will *not* see through the second phase of the Breixt negotiations.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> The PM will *not* see through the second phase of the Breixt negotiations.


If she gets _her _deal passed we can expect another few years of her. It'll give her renewed strength. Why do you think she's trying everything to get her deal passed? Why criticise MPs the way she did? She wants supreme power in her little empire.

I hope none of them are too stupid to fall for that one.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Our own government ignores us remainers, but the EU is listening
> 
> *Donald Tusk*‏Verified account @eucopresident
> _Appeal to EP: You should be open to a long extension, if the UK wishes to rethink its strategy. 6 million people signed the petition, 1 million marched.
> They may not feel sufficiently represented by UK Parliament but they must feel represented by you.
> Because they are Europeans._
> 
> Liked
> 59K
> 
> *Guy Verhofstadt*‏:
> _The seed for Britain's return to the European Union was planted last weekend by marching in London & nearly six million signing the article 50 petition.
> We need a deep EU-UK relationship that one day, I'm pretty sure, will lead Britain back into the family of European nations_
> 
> And Guy is rather witty too
> 
> *Guy Verhofstadt*‏:
> _
> I'm surprised to see you here, Mr. Farage. I thought you were marching 200 miles for the leave campaign? How many did you do? 2 miles! You remind me more & more of Field Marshal Haig in Blackadder, sitting safely in his office, while his people are walking in the cold & the rain_.
> 
> 
> 28,435 likes


I didn't expect this rotten government to listen. Brexit is their mission to lower standards and dissolve employment rights. They wouldn't barge if 17m marched or signed the petition.

I was proudly in the crowds last Saturday not just to show UK politicians but those in other EU countries and the world as well.

I wanted them to know that not every UK citizen is a stereotypical bigot/racist etc.

They got that message loud and clear.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> If she gets _her _deal passed we can expect another few years of her. It'll give her renewed strength. Why do you think she's trying everything to get her deal passed? Why criticise MPs the way she did? She wants supreme power in her little empire.
> 
> I hope none of them are too stupid to fall for that one.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Not rumour. Confirmed. TM will step down if her deal is voted through. She hasn't given a date yet.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47725529


This is one of the most worrying things I've heard. What is the desperation to get this deal passed?

Just get out.....................


----------



## KittenKong

Far right group holds poll that no one who disagrees with them are allowed to take part!

More threatening behaviour from the type of people the government vow to represent.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> This to me reads as "I am very very angry no-one shares my point of view and I can't accept it"


That sounds like our PM....


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> This is one of the most worrying things I've heard. What is the desperation to get this deal passed?
> 
> Just get out.....................


The desperation comes from clear evidence that this Not what people expected voting for Leave and some have now second thoughts...

Obviously only May has the right to have her Deal voted twice, or trice ... or until she gets the result she wants...

You might remember all the assurances before referendum...for businesses, financial services etc..., there willing be some form of access to Single Market, Customs Union of course, passporting rights will stay etc....
I never trusted those promises... but I was brought up in deep distrust of government and propaganda....

So ERG is happy to accept Deal that they think is rotten if one of them will be the next PM?
Bet she secretly promised every each of them her chair to get as many votes as possible...

And Labour will do what they always do....

After all Brexit will be catastrophic, so next election might be won and what can be more important... as Corbyn said ... there are other things to talk about...

If Brexit is necessary for Mr Corbyn to be a PM he will take a chance...

I have impression he is waiting for the Deal to get through.... prove me wrong dear Labour...
Bercow alone will not save Britain.

Petition reaching now 6 mln...


----------



## kimthecat

Looks like the Brexit leaving date will be the Twelfth of Never and that's a long long time.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Brexit leaving date will be the Twelfth of Never and that's a long long time.


I can live with that....

There are much worse options... :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> This is one of the most worrying things I've heard. What is the desperation to get this deal passed?
> 
> Just get out.....................


More blackmail tactics from May. If she was serious about standing down she would stand down now, not at the time her personal deal is passed.

No logic to that at all.

Agree with your first paragraph, obviously not the second!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> More blackmail tactics from May. If she was serious about standing down she would stand down now, not at the time her personal deal is passed.
> 
> No logic to that at all.
> 
> Agree with your first paragraph, obviously not the second!


I reckon May bunged the DUP another few billion to ensure they _*don`t*_ vote for her deal


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes 441 Noes 105 

Brexit Delay Motion passed to change Brexit date to April 12 th.


----------



## Magyarmum

Parliament has rejected all indicative votes

No Deal ................... Ayes 160 Noes 400
Common Market ....... Ayes 188 Noes 283
EFTA & EEA.............. Ayes 65 Noes 377
Customs Union............ Ayes 264 Noes 272
Labour Alt Plan ........ Ayes 237 Noes 307
Revocation ............... Ayes 184 Noes 293
Confirmation Vote ...... Ayes 268 Noes 295
Preferential Arrangement Ayes 139 Noes 422

Chaos now reigns in the HoC!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Parliament has rejected all indicative votes
> 
> No Deal ................... Ayes 160 Noes 400
> Common Market ....... Ayes 188 Noes 283
> EFTA & EEA.............. Ayes 65 Noes 377
> Customs Union............ Ayes 264 Noes 272
> Labour Alt Plan ........ Ayes 237 Noes 307
> Revocation ............... Ayes 184 Noes 293
> Confirmation Vote ...... Ayes 268 Noes 295
> Preferential Arrangement Ayes 139 Noes 422
> 
> Chaos now reigns in the HoC!


Things will clear up... if Labour get their act together at long last!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Funny how Michael Gove is favourite to replace Theresa May in the unlikely event she should stand down...


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Parliament has rejected all indicative votes
> 
> No Deal ................... Ayes 160 Noes 400
> Common Market ....... Ayes 188 Noes 283
> EFTA & EEA.............. Ayes 65 Noes 377
> Customs Union............ Ayes 264 Noes 272
> Labour Alt Plan ........ Ayes 237 Noes 307
> Revocation ............... Ayes 184 Noes 293
> Confirmation Vote ...... Ayes 268 Noes 295
> Preferential Arrangement Ayes 139 Noes 422
> 
> Chaos now reigns in the HoC!


How the hell was Theresa ever going to sort this lot?

They don't know what they are voting for do they?

If she leaves, things will only get worse


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> How the hell was Theresa ever going to sort this lot?
> 
> They don't know what they are voting for do they?
> 
> If she leaves, things will only get worse


Theresa May is a useless racist who puts her own personal prejudices above the national interest.

Her performance as Home Secretary was terrible and cruel, (Windrush and the Go Home or Face Arrest vans as examples), while reducing police numbers.

Did anyone expect her to do any better as Prime Minister?

She's a liability to her own party let alone the UK.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


>


Lucky for you, you'll be many miles/kilometers away from the UK!

Do you really believe Theresa May is 'governing' in the 'National Interest'?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> The desperation comes from clear evidence that this Not what people expected voting for Leave and some have now second thoughts...
> 
> Obviously only May has the right to have her Deal voted twice, or trice ... or until she gets the result she wants...
> 
> You might remember all the assurances before referendum...for businesses, financial services etc..., there willing be some form of access to Single Market, Customs Union of course, passporting rights will stay etc....
> I never trusted those promises... but I was brought up in deep distrust of government and propaganda....
> 
> So ERG is happy to accept Deal that they think is rotten if one of them will be the next PM?
> Bet she secretly promised every each of them her chair to get as many votes as possible...
> 
> And Labour will do what they always do....
> 
> After all Brexit will be catastrophic, so next election might be won and what can be more important... as Corbyn said ... there are other things to talk about...
> 
> If Brexit is necessary for Mr Corbyn to be a PM he will take a chance...
> 
> I have impression he is waiting for the Deal to get through.... prove me wrong dear Labour...
> Bercow alone will not save Britain.
> 
> Petition reaching now 6 mln...


I was discussing this on the other similar Brexit forum I'm on, about the false promises by the leave campaign, "We hold all the cards" and all that.

Someone played Devil's Advocate and suggested some were not actually lying but genuinely believed the EU would bend over backwards to accommodate them due to 'British superiority'. He had a point.
Certainly, many holidaymakers are in denial things will change, but have a short sharp shock coming to them.

I don't believe May intended to leave the Single Market and Customs Union. There was certainly little to no mention of that during the 2016 campaign.

I believe May believed she could remain in both yet end our FoM to satisfy her immigration targets. When the EU most rightly said no she vowed the UK must leave and to hell with everything as long as she can target 'immigrants'.

The vile woman should lead the National Front or BNP. Instead, she's turning her party into them. To be fair, she isn't alone in this.


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn told his MPs to vote for second referendum but 27 rebelled . The indicative votes failed by 27 votes .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn told his MPs to vote for second referendum but 27 rebelled . The indicative votes failed by 27 votes .


Exactly, which gives the run to Tories.

No Customs Union is a disaster. It is not political it is pragmatic.

Again Labour will be remembered as party that could have stopped this disaster but didn't.

Exactly like in times of referendum. May Deal will be it then


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly, which gives the run to Tories.
> 
> No Customs Union is a disaster. It is not political it is pragmatic.
> 
> Again Labour will be remembered as party that could have stopped this disaster but didn't.
> 
> Exactly like in times of referendum. May Deal will be it then


It's already being pointed out on this morning's news that there is only one deal that is viable - and more or less approved at least by the EU - and that's May's Deal.


----------



## KittenKong

What if May gets her third vote and is defeated again. Sounds most likely seeing the DUP are still strongly opposed to it and more on the ERG side voice their opposition despite the hypocrisy of JR-M and BJ now saying they'll back it.

Public opinion, whether pro or anti Brexit remains strong, but should a third vote pass Brexit supporters will have to accept it's what they voted for so they should suck it up and get over it.

That's the problem, they didn't know what they actually voted for regardless of what they say. "We just want out" isn't sufficient reason.

Would be like me being asked for argument sake why I might want a Labour government if asked five years ago. Just saying, "Because I want(ed) a Labour government is not a good enough reason!

Well, all I can say is I didn't vote, nor support any form of Brexit. I'm the opposite by wanting the adoption of Schengen and the Euro, though accept many pro-EU supporters wouldn't agree.


----------



## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly, which gives the run to Tories.
> 
> No Customs Union is a disaster. It is not political it is pragmatic.
> 
> Again Labour will be remembered as party that could have stopped this disaster but didn't.
> 
> Exactly like in times of referendum. May Deal will be it then


*I don't think labour can be blamed for this mess. The tories should have made a hash of this since it started. The blame lays with them and nobody else. Just my opinion.*


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> seems a bit like a repetition


Repetition? Tell me about it: if I had £1 for every time someone on this and the previous B***** thread has droned on about the £350 million for the NHS, I would be buying a brand new car. Even 50p per post would give my finances a handy boost.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Brexit leaving date will be the Twelfth of Never and that's a long long time.


Haha!! If I hum it, can you sing it?:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Lucky for you, you'll be many miles/kilometers away from the UK!
> 
> Do you really believe Theresa May is 'governing' in the 'National Interest'?


So what's my living many miles away from the UK got to do with it!

Or maybe you think that unlike the expats living in Spain that you're always carrying on about, expats living in Hungary won't be affected?

Sour grapes by any chance?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> How the hell was Theresa ever going to sort this lot?


She could have tried talking and listening to a cross party group 2 years ago in order to formulate a consensus rather than treating Brexit as though it was a purely internal Tory party matter.


----------



## noushka05

I really like Andrew Adonis because hes generally so optimistic (unlike me)

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis 1h1 hour ago
I_gnore the noise & focus on reality. Mrs May & her deal are gone. There will be long Art 50 extension. It takes just 14 MPs to switch, and/or support from some of 50 'sensible' abstainers, & there is majority for a referendum. That's what will now happen. It's a question of time.
_
Always respect Mike Galsworthy's opinion too.

*Mike Galsworthy*‏:

A good night!

Brexit exit date of 29-3-2019 binned... *AND* with 268 votes, the People's Vote proposition won the night - and also got more votes than Theresa May's deal has ever won.

Yes, it lost. But all options were were expected to lose. 
The question was which option would draw the most support in the first round.

And that was a PV.

It's a very good result.

And the reaction from wonderful Caroline.

*Caroline Lucas*‏:
Public vote gets biggest vote - 268 in favour - and crucially gets more support than PM's Deal last time (242)

Now Monday becomes key moment to attach #peoplesvote to any deal that gets more support


..........


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Repetition? Tell me about it: if I had £1 for every time someone on this and the previous B***** thread has droned on about the £350 million for the NHS, I would be buying a brand new car. Even 50p per post would give my finances a handy boost.


I don't think that democracy is served by quietly forgetting the barefaced lies that were told. It condones the practice and creates precedent.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Did anyone expect her to do any better as Prime Minister?


If I recall Rona did


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I really like Andrew Adonis because hes generally so optimistic (unlike me)
> 
> *Andrew Adonis*‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis 1h1 hour ago
> I_gnore the noise & focus on reality. Mrs May & her deal are gone. There will be long Art 50 extension. It takes just 14 MPs to switch, and/or support from some of 50 'sensible' abstainers, & there is majority for a referendum. That's what will now happen. It's a question of time.
> _
> Always respect Mike Galsworthy's opinion too.
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy*‏:
> 
> A good night!
> 
> Brexit exit date of 29-3-2019 binned... *AND* with 268 votes, the People's Vote proposition won the night - and also got more votes than Theresa May's deal has ever won.
> 
> Yes, it lost. But all options were were expected to lose.
> The question was which option would draw the most support in the first round.
> 
> And that was a PV.
> 
> It's a very good result.
> 
> And the reaction from wonderful Caroline.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏:
> Public vote gets biggest vote - 268 in favour - and crucially gets more support than PM's Deal last time (242)
> 
> Now Monday becomes key moment to attach #peoplesvote to any deal that gets more support
> 
> ..........


I can't help thinking that they are being a tad over-optimistic, but here's hoping!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I can't help thinking that they are being a tad over-optimistic, but here's hoping!


I'm usually a doom monger, so just wanted to spread a little optimism for a change lol. Fingers crossed, hey x


----------



## noushka05

Heres Ian Dunt & Lewis Goodall's summary @Arnie83 

*Ian Dunt*‏:
_Full report on today's events:

Very bad night for hardline Brexiters, bad night for soft Brexiters, good night for customs union and second referendum._

*Lewis Goodall*‏:
_All those saying these votes were a waste of time are wrong.

-a customs union (with cabinet votes) is v close to passing.

-Norway/soft Brexit options much weaker than thought.

-Ratification ref much stronger, add it to PM's deal and could make it.

Was a v useful exercise_


----------



## noushka05

Heres a breakdown of how MPs voted last night.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> quietly forgetting


Like I said, it has hardly been ''quietly forgotten''; it is mentioned ten times a day and has become quite tedious.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> What is the desperation to get this deal passed?


It's the ''any deal better than no deal'' mindset I guess.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Like I said, it has hardly been ''quietly forgotten''; it is mentioned ten times a day.


You mean the lie about us giving £350 million every week to the EU, and implying that it would be spent on the NHS if we left?

(9 to go, but it's early!)


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> the barefaced lies that were told.


On both sides.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> You mean the lie about us giving £350 million every week to the EU


I have said what I meant.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Heres Ian Dunt & Lewis Goodall's summary @Arnie83
> 
> *Ian Dunt*‏:
> _Full report on today's events:
> 
> Very bad night for hardline Brexiters, bad night for soft Brexiters, good night for customs union and second referendum._
> 
> *Lewis Goodall*‏:
> _All those saying these votes were a waste of time are wrong.
> 
> -a customs union (with cabinet votes) is v close to passing.
> 
> -Norway/soft Brexit options much weaker than thought.
> 
> -Ratification ref much stronger, add it to PM's deal and could make it.
> 
> Was a v useful exercise_


I can see the reason for the optimism, but I'll wait until the abstainers jump off the fence and see where they land.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Not really, all he usually achieves is to make himself look foolish.
> 
> I prefer my national spokespeople to be of the reasoned, rational, factual and respectful debating types, not purveyors of ranty diatribes. The day Mr Farage manages to be the former type then never mind the flying pigs, I strongly suspect Satan will be skating to work...


Fair enough


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> That sounds like our PM....


I totally agree, especially now she is saying, you can get rid of me if you vote my deal in


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Haha!! If I hum it, can you sing it?:Hilarious


Yup. An oldie but a goodie. 

Another oldie .DUP will be singing. You dont get me ,lm part of the Union til the day l die


----------



## kimthecat

. Double post.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Far right group holds poll that no one who disagrees with them are allowed to take part!
> 
> More threatening behaviour from the type of people the government vow to represent.
> 
> View attachment 398268


I bet you'll find a very similar sort of response on the other side of the argument, having closed off polls to members only is a very common practice on social media.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Theresa May is a useless racist


Errrr what????


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> Errrr what????


 KKs off his game. He forgot to add Nazi to his post! :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> I totally agree, especially now she is saying, you can get rid of me if you vote my deal in


Looking a little deeper, I strongly suspect this is her attempt to make 'doing a Cameron' (digging the country into a massive hole for personal political reasons, then running away from dealing with the consequences) a respectable option...


----------



## AlexPed2393

kimthecat said:


> KKs off his game. He forgot to add Nazi to his post! :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> View attachment 398325


 :Hilarious

She needs a No No for unwanted hair !


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> On both sides.


Twisting the facts to justify the lies from the leave campaign!
The Remain campaign was utterly useless. At no time were any benefits of EU membership were mentioned. They saw remaining as better than leaving which is hardly positive is it.

Only in more recent times what EU membership benefits will be lost are becoming more apparent.

Did the remain campaign, at anytime promise unicorns and unachievable fantasies like the Leave campaign did? Never!

Even if they had it still doesn't justify the leave lies of £350m for the NHS etc.


----------



## KittenKong

The Dictatorship in function.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-47724095


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The Dictatorship in function.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-47724095
> 
> View attachment 398329


 I guess the word Bollocks might have something to do with its. seems like he was out to offend , and looking for a fight.

"Mr Brinsmead-Stockham, from Surrey, arrived at Gatwick's north terminal on Monday afternoon, following a trip to Portugal.

Eddie Brinsmead-Stockham said when he refused to take off the "Bollocks to Brexit" badge he was taken to a holding area without his passport.
He says that, after his refusal to take off the badge, he was detained for around 10 minutes until a second official returned his passport and allowed him to leave.
He said the official told him to take off the badge in the airport because he was in danger of being assaulted. "

What a dick


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Twisting the facts to justify the lies from the leave campaign!


If this is aimed at me, tell me what facts I am accused of twisting - if you can.



KittenKong said:


> £350m for the NHS etc.


This boring old shit again? I swear this comes up about ten times a day. We have not left the EU yet; we therefore have no way of knowing what the NHS will get (if and when we do). . . unless you are privy to information withheld from us lesser beings.
Someone please tell me too why the remainers on this thread are obsessed with unicorns. I find it quite strange; very strange, in fact.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> KKs off his game.


 Off his rocker, more like!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Some strong language in this so be warned!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> If this is aimed at me, tell me what facts I am accused of twisting - if you can.
> 
> This boring old shit again? I swear this comes up about ten times a day. We have not left the EU yet; we therefore have no way of knowing what the NHS will get I(if and when we do). . . unless you are privy to information withheld from us lesser beings.
> Someone please tell me too why the remainers on this thread are obsessed with unicorns. I find it quite strange; very strange, in fact.


Not directed at you personally, but something I've heard quite often from many who justifiy the leave lies.

And the £350m pledge is not boring old rubbish seeing it was lies like this one that won leave the referendum.

Unicorns are mythical, like the promises made which is probably why this term is often used. I'd prefer fairytales quite frankly.

While I'm at it, the Corbyn promise of a "Jobs First Brexit" is just as mythical.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Some strong language in this so be warned!


I like this idea 

  
tin soldier  3 weeks ago
Let's use this song for our entry in the Eurovision song contest...


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> And the £350m pledge is not boring old rubbish seeing it was lies like this one that won leave the referendum.


Doesn't stop it from being boring (as it's been said plenty of times, and/or rubbish as linked to what Calvine said earlier in that we are unsure of where money is going after we leave the EU anyway


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> If this is aimed at me, tell me what facts I am accused of twisting - if you can.
> 
> This boring old shit again? I swear this comes up about ten times a day. We have not left the EU yet; we therefore have no way of knowing what the NHS will get I(if and when we do). . . unless you are privy to information withheld from us lesser beings.
> Someone please tell me too why the remainers on this thread are obsessed with unicorns. I find it quite strange; very strange, in fact.


We KNOW there is no 'brexit dividend' to spend on our NHS. It was a PROVEN lie. We KNOW all forms of brexit will be bad for our NHS. The only people who still don't know this are those who are in denial of the reality.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> This is one of the most worrying things I've heard. What is the desperation to get this deal passed?
> 
> Just get out.....................


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Doesn't stop it from being boring (as it's been said plenty of times, and/or rubbish as linked to what Calvine said earlier in that we are unsure of where money is going after we leave the EU anyway


It isn't that money will or will not be directed to the NHS after Brexit.

It's that we don't and never have contributed £350 million a week to the EU.

And once we leave the money we will have available will not suddenly increase by that, or any other amount, because, net, the amount the government will have at its disposal will fall, thanks to the increased cost of business leading to lower profits and therefore lower tax revenue; not to mention a £39 billion divorce settlement.

But as Calvine suggests, it has been done to death.


----------



## Elles

Ironically, it’s Eu supporters who wildly copy paste and share copyrighted articles, images and news stories on petforums. I have in the past pleaded for it to stop, but to no avail. Where I have failed, the Eu shall prevail? 

Article 13 and its little sister 12a. 

Maybe freedom of speech isn’t a freedom the Eu do support...

However, 12a it says, will prevent people taking photos at sports events and sharing them. This could be a problem for those trying to highlight animal abuse at events such as FEI endurance, rollkur in dressage and various other abuses. I think I need to rejoin some of the groups I was in and find out if this is the case.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It isn't that money will or will not be directed to the NHS after Brexit.
> 
> It's that we don't and never have contributed £350 million a week to the EU.
> 
> And once we leave the money we will have available will not suddenly increase by that, or any other amount, because, net, the amount the government will have at its disposal will fall, thanks to the increased cost of business leading to lower profits and therefore lower tax revenue; not to mention a £39 billion divorce settlement.
> 
> But as Calvine suggests, it has been done to death.


They could have used the actual amount, taking off discounts and returns, reduced it by another 10% for mistakes in accounting, then said they'd put it into opening a chain of pubs to compete with Wetherspoons. It would have made no difference imo.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Ironically, it's Eu supporters who wildly copy paste and share copyrighted articles, images and news stories on petforums. I have in the past pleaded for it to stop, but to no avail. Where I have failed, the Eu shall prevail?
> 
> Article 13 and its little sister 12a.
> 
> Maybe freedom of speech isn't a freedom the Eu do support...
> 
> *However, 12a it says, will prevent people taking photos at sports events and sharing them.* This could be a problem for those trying to highlight animal abuse at events such as FEI endurance, rollkur in dressage and various other abuses. I think I need to rejoin some of the groups I was in and find out if this is the case.


I suspect that is Project Demonise the EU.

A bit like the Express headline yesterday while almost everyone was welcoming the introduction of speed limiters on new cars for the number of lives it would save ...

*Brexit NOW! Brussels to fit speed limit devices in cars by 2022 to CONTROL how YOU drive*​
and today's follow-up

*EU nanny state: Speed limiter tech for your car has black box recording your EVERY move*​


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that is Project Demonise the EU.
> 
> A bit like the Express headline yesterday while almost everyone was welcoming the introduction of speed limiters on new cars for the number of lives it would save ...
> 
> *Brexit NOW! Brussels to fit speed limit devices in cars by 2022 to CONTROL how YOU drive*​
> and today's follow-up
> 
> *EU nanny state: Speed limiter tech for your car has black box recording your EVERY move*​


The AA are a bit cautious about it. I read you can over ride it so not sure how that helps.


----------



## Elles

Breaking news: @Arnie83 reads the Express.  We're doomed!

There have been speed limiters on vehicles for years. My car has a driver adjustable one, along with cruise control and lane indicator. In an emergency I can hit the accelerator and override the limiter, but I try not to create emergencies. Although I don't think speed kills, it's the sudden stopping that hurts, I do think many people do drive too close to each other for the speed they're travelling, so if it also has some kind of distance sensor and limits speeds in towns, villages, outside schools etc too, I think it's a good thing and with advancing technologies our own nanny state would be enforcing it anyway. Eu or no Eu.

Have you seen the idiots on the roads? If I have to be controlled in order to control them, it's a cheap price to pay.


----------



## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think labour can be blamed for this mess. The tories should have made a hash of this since it started. The blame lays with them and nobody else. Just my opinion.*


Hmm... eurosceptics like Corbyn and Unite didn't help... those who stand and do nothing are just as guilty...
Tories never were the defenders of the people... never for common people.

I expected more form Labour and my impression is that Corbyn was more interested in not talking to some of Labour leaders, crowd pleasing, holding to his chair and hoping to be PM than preventing Brexit..
He in my opinion failed as leader- not to bring his MPs round to defend the common people and the country.

Tories are evil and Labour has weak leadership.

This why we are in this sorry mess leaving with a rotten deal very few ever wanted.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *Breaking news: @Arnie83 reads the Express.  We're doomed!*
> 
> There have been speed limiters on vehicles for years. My car has a driver adjustable one, along with cruise control and lane indicator. In an emergency I can hit the accelerator and override the limiter, but I try not to create emergencies. Although I don't think speed kills, it's the sudden stopping that hurts, I do think many people do drive too close to each other for the speed they're travelling, so if it also has some kind of distance sensor and limits speeds in towns, villages, outside schools etc too, I think it's a good thing and with advancing technologies our own nanny state would be enforcing it anyway.  Eu or no Eu.
> 
> Have you seen the idiots on the roads? If I have to be controlled in order to control them, it's a cheap price to pay.


Arnie's Google News page shows him headlines. 

Although I admit that occasionally I look at how the Express is reporting some Brexit related issues. And the comments after the story; and I use the word 'story' advisedly! I usually end up shaking my head more in sadness than in irritation.


----------



## KittenKong

So the wicked witch gets her third attempt at getting her deal through tomorrow. Surprised there wasn't another trip to Brussels for her, "Look at me taking on the EU bullies", publicity shots.

Bet she finds a way out of resigning if her deal gets through this time.

I'll leave it here...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> So the wicked witch gets her third attempt at getting her deal through tomorrow. Surprised there wasn't another trip to Brussels for her, "Look at me taking on the EU bullies", publicity shots.
> 
> Bet she finds a way out of resigning if her deal gets through this time.
> 
> I'll leave it here...


It isn`t looking to good for it getting through tomorrow, Downing st. said today she will stand down if her deal passes but no mention of what happens if it doesn`t. The Tories don`t give a monkeys about her bloody deal now, they are to occupied with who is going to replace her.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> It isn`t looking to good for it getting through tomorrow, Downing st. said today she will stand down if her deal passes but no mention of what happens if it doesn`t. The Tories don`t give a monkeys about her bloody deal now, they are to occupied with who is going to replace her.


She probably won't stand down until her deal passes whether it's the third or thirteenth attempt:Rage. I very much doubt she'll resign anyway unless she's made a deal with Uncle Rupert that enables Michael Gove to take her place.

I'll have another sleepless night with worry as I did with the last vote, thinking she would win it.

Nice to be proven wrong as I hope to be again. The DUP, should they maintain their stance, could become unlikely heroes in this, however reluctantly I might say this. Labour so far appear opposed too.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> It isn't that money will or will not be directed to the NHS after Brexit.
> 
> It's that we don't and never have contributed £350 million a week to the EU.
> 
> And once we leave the money we will have available will not suddenly increase by that, or any other amount, because, net, the amount the government will have at its disposal will fall, thanks to the increased cost of business leading to lower profits and therefore lower tax revenue; not to mention a £39 billion divorce settlement.
> 
> But as Calvine suggests, it has been done to death.


Brexit supporters need to be reminded of this daily.


----------



## KittenKong

Charming people this government are catering for.

Over one million of us marched last Saturday, did we riot or threaten civil disorder?

















https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...RdTaIzJG_u6P_kWodh8qc85El3Wy34g7r7202rvFpX_p4


----------



## KittenKong

Even if Brexit were to happen tomorrow, what ******** planet are they from?

Did they really think 'we would all' celebrate with street parties? Nice little image of an, "all white Britain" here.

No bloody chance.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Even if Brexit were to happen tomorrow, what ******** planet are they from?
> 
> Did they really think 'we would all' celebrate with street parties? Nice little image of an, "all white Britain" here.
> 
> No bloody chance.
> 
> View attachment 398434


Imagine country run by UKIP and ERG... please no comparisons...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine country run by UKIP and ERG... please no comparisons...


Cheeky! that is not an image I want in my head thank you :Bawling


----------



## kimthecat

Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?
We had all these votes and amendnents including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> *Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?*
> We had all these votes and amendnents including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


That's a good question, I don't see how anyone is going to untangle the mess she has created, I think the only thing a new PM should do, is to go back to the EU ask if we can have a long extention, rip her deal up and start again.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?
> We had all these votes and amendnents including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


No. Michael Gove is favourite to replace May apparently. He would be no better. I don't know where he stands on 'immigrants' though. Might be less extreme than May on that I don't know.

They shouldn't have promised a fantasy, something they couldn't deliver during a referendum campaign they apparently didn't expect to win.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Please not Grove, I think Larry the cat would be better than any of them.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Brexit supporters need to be reminded of this daily.


They are - *ten times a day* on this thread.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?


Answers on a postcard, please. The choice of successor is quite underwhelming.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> Please not Grove, I think Larry the cat would be better than any of them.


:Hilarious and Please God , not Boris !



Calvine said:


> They are - *ten times a day* on this thread.


:Hilarious Only 10 ?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> They are - *ten times a day* on this thread.


Sorry, I should've mentioned everywhere. Not just this forum.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Brexit supporters need to be reminded of this daily.


Shows how blind you are, do you truly believe all those who support Brexit even took an ounce of interest in that bus, I certainly didn't as it was very similar to most if not all the other crap that is put out during any kind of vote.

I go off what my opinions are, not what I am force fed by a marketing campaign on a bus.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Nice little image of an, "all white Britain" here.


It's not a staged picture sweetheart, most towns, villages etc are still predominantly white, they don't need to go find a token person from any ethnic minority to put in a picture.
This comment also raises the problem of employment in many of our public services, the straight white male is being victimised and people who define as anything else have a better chance to be employed by a government body as they have to hit their 'diversity quotas'. It should be, whoever is best gets the job, and that could be anyone; straight, gay, black, white, asian and on and on and on


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?
> We had all these votes and amendnents including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


*I believe JC would and could do a much better job. And let's be honest, could anyone do worse?*


----------



## AlexPed2393

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe JC would and could do a much better job. And let's be honest, could anyone do worse?*


Maybe, but the problem is that TM was left with a mess to clean up, now she has made a bigger mess, so whoever takes over is probably going to leave a bigger mess or just focus on trying to clean up the mess.
It's all just a mess


----------



## JANICE199

AlexPed2393 said:


> Maybe, but the problem is that TM was left with a mess to clean up, now she has made a bigger mess, so whoever takes over is probably going to leave a bigger mess or just focus on trying to clean up the mess.
> It's all just a mess


*I totally agree with you. *


----------



## rona

AlexPed2393 said:


> Maybe, but the problem is that TM was left with a mess to clean up, now she has made a bigger mess, so whoever takes over is probably going to leave a bigger mess or just focus on trying to clean up the mess.
> It's all just a mess


I don't think she made the mess at all, I think that is at the door of those that played party politics above what's best for the country

If you think she isn't just the scapegoat, then all this turmoil is wasted


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Maybe, but the problem is that TM was left with a mess to clean up, now she has made a bigger mess, so whoever takes over is probably going to leave a bigger mess or just focus on trying to clean up the mess.
> It's all just a mess


Agreed Theresa May inherited a mess, but she turned an untidy bedroom into a landfill rubbish tip.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I don't think she made the mess at all, I think that is at the door of those that played party politics above what's best for the country
> 
> If you think she isn't just the scapegoat, then all this turmoil is wasted


:Hilarious
The one who used her personal dislike of 'foreigners' above the national interest. Hardly what's best for the "country" is it?

I would say that as a Brexit supporter, let alone as a passionate remainer.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> We had all these votes and amendments including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


There was no majority in the indicative votes, but they were intended to determine the front runners, which will now be debated on Monday.

It is interesting, though, that two of the possible routes forwards - a customs union, and a further referendum - both garnered more votes than either of May's Deal attempts did. (I expect a much closer vote today though.)


----------



## Arnie83

As for May, she chose a hard Brexit definition with her red lines at Lancaster House in order to pacify the ERG wing of the Tories.

After the disastrous election which she called, and in which her plans were rejected along with her majority, the only change she made was to pay the DUP to keep the Tories in power.

When it became clear that her hard Brexit was going to leave the country considerably worse off and the soft-Brexit wing of her party did not kow-tow as readily as she expected, she pivoted to a softer Brexit in the Chequers plan, in order to pacify them.

She never once considered talking to the whole of Parliament to try to reach a consensus, and even now her machinations are conducted with their obvious priority being Tory unity, and with the national interest coming a very poor second.

Yes I think someone else could have done a better job given the very low bar they would have to clear in order to do so.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Shows how blind you are, do you truly believe all those who support Brexit even took an ounce of interest in that bus, I certainly didn't as it was very similar to most if not all the other crap that is put out during any kind of vote.
> 
> I go off what my opinions are, not what I am force fed by a marketing campaign on a bus.


You had your reasons why you voted leave of course, but many did fall for the lies such as on the big red bus and the almost daily pamphlets warning the entire population of Turkey are about to take over the UK that came through our letterboxes. At least they did here.



AlexPed2393 said:


> It's not a staged picture sweetheart, most towns, villages etc are still predominantly white, they don't need to go find a token person from any ethnic minority to put in a picture.
> This comment also raises the problem of employment in many of our public services, the straight white male is being victimised and people who define as anything else have a better chance to be employed by a government body as they have to hit their 'diversity quotas'. It should be, whoever is best gets the job, and that could be anyone; straight, gay, black, white, asian and on and on and on


Recalling their "Breaking Point" poster, rumour has it they airbrushed out white people to make it look a queue of "none whites" are about to cross the border into "Great Britain".

This image deliberately profiles images of a white Britain. I wouldn't put it.past them to have airbrushed any " none white" faces out of the picture.

"Straight white male being victimised"....


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe JC would and could do a much better job. And let's be honest, could anyone do worse?*


Noooo Not JC !  hes too wishy washy . His MPs ignored him and lots of them resigned . He is McDonnell's glove puppet.

I dislike McDonnells policies but he is the power behind the throne , he's far more together than Corbyn .


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> "Straight white male being victimised". No prizes what your politics are...


You clearly haven't tried to apply for government jobs as of late.

If equality was the key then they shouldn't have to ask on the form what gender you are, what ethnicity you are, or your sexual orientation. But they do. The amount of males in middle management civil service positions is so low its astounding.

For example getting on the parole board they are specifically asking for female ethnic minorities to apply.

To deny its happening is just being blind.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> You clearly haven't tried to apply for government jobs as of late.
> 
> If equality was the key then they shouldn't have to ask on the form what gender you are, what ethnicity you are, or your sexual orientation. But they do. The amount of males in middle management civil service positions is so low its astounding.
> 
> For example getting on the parole board they are specifically asking for female ethnic minorities to apply.
> 
> To deny its happening is just being blind.


Just as a point of interest, what choices do you get under 'ethnicity'?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Just as a point of interest, what choices do you get under 'ethnicity'?


From memory (which isn't great at the best of times)

British, white british, british other, carribean british, then it goes onto say other countries on their own rather than linked to british


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone think another PM could have done better or will do better?
> We had all these votes and amendnents including another referendum and parliament turned it down .


(beside the lunatic fringe gagging for no deall) how could anyone possibly do worse?:Hilarious

My fave Marxist nailing it last night! (& MM's I believe)

Who is to blame?

_the answer is really very simple, Theresa May._ ..................."
_
.......This is a deal that a nation only signs after having being defeated in war"_






_"Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get is passed is by default not worth supporting." _

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation …


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Noooo Not JC !  hes too wishy washy . His MPs ignored him and lots of them resigned . He is McDonnell's glove puppet.
> 
> I dislike McDonnells policies but he is the power behind the throne , he's far more together than Corbyn .


Any proof hes Mcdonnells glove puppet or is it another conspiracy theory straight out of the Daily Mail?


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> You clearly haven't tried to apply for government jobs as of late.
> 
> If equality was the key then they shouldn't have to ask on the form what gender you are, what ethnicity you are, or your sexual orientation. But they do. The amount of males in middle management civil service positions is so low its astounding.
> 
> For example getting on the parole board they are specifically asking for female ethnic minorities to apply.
> 
> To deny its happening is just being blind.


I happen to be a "straight white male" as you describe. I do not agree with the ethnic origin or sexuality questions either as I prefer to see myself as 'colour blind'. I've always believed the job so go to the best candidate regardless of sexuality and 'ethnic background'. It's none of the potential employers damn business anyway.

I think, however, as far as the police and legal services are concerned something had to be done following the Stephen Lawrence murder. I can understand that.

Such information could be used against people in the future. I've already heard rumours citizens from other EU countries, as indeed citizens from the UK applying for jobs there are rejected through the continued uncertainty over future rights.

You might argue black or gay people might have played the victim in the past. Why should 'straight white' people be condoned for doing the same?

I detest Diane Abbot for example, but her race has nothing to do with that. Indeed my personal choice of Labour leader and PM is David Lammy. Again 'ethnic origin has nothing to do with that!


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I happen to be a "straight white male" as you describe. I do not agree with the ethnic origin or sexuality questions either as I prefer to see myself as 'colour blind'. I've always believed the job so go to the best candidate regardless of sexuality and 'ethnic background'. It's none of the potential employers damn business anyway.
> 
> I think, however, as far as the police and legal services are concerned something had to be done following the Stephen Lawrence murder. I can understand that.
> 
> Such information could be used against people in the future. I've already heard rumours citizens from other EU countries, as indeed citizens from the UK applying for jobs there are rejected through the continued uncertainty over future rights.
> 
> You might argue black or gay people might have played the victim in the past. Why should 'straight white' people be condoned for doing the same?
> 
> I detest Diane Abbot for example, but her race has nothing to do with that. Indeed my personal choice of Labour leader and PM is David Lammy. Again 'ethnic origin has nothing to do with that!


I think we might be in agreement on something?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Bet she finds a way out of resigning


I am honestly not sure; I think she is looking completely shattered. She always had the bags under the eyes, but now they are double deckers. She is looking totally defeated.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I happen to be a "straight white male" as you describe. I do not agree with the ethnic origin or sexuality questions either as I prefer to see myself as 'colour blind'. I've always believed the job so go to the best candidate regardless of sexuality and 'ethnic background'. It's none of the potential employers damn business anyway.
> 
> I think, however, as far as the police and legal services are concerned something had to be done following the Stephen Lawrence murder. I can understand that.
> 
> Such information could be used against people in the future. I've already heard rumours citizens from other EU countries, as indeed citizens from the UK applying for jobs there are rejected through the continued uncertainty over future rights.
> 
> You might argue black or gay people might have played the victim in the past. Why should 'straight white' people be condoned for doing the same?
> 
> I detest Diane Abbot for example, but her race has nothing to do with that. Indeed my personal choice of Labour leader and PM is David Lammy. Again 'ethnic origin has nothing to do with that!


OMG I actually agree with KK ! I almost feel sorry for white men nowadays . I think there was a case recently where a white man was turned down for a promotion in the police force and he took them to court and the court agreed that he was discriminated against.

I can see why various groups are bitter , I feel quite bitter about the way women were treated in the 70s but in the end I want everyone to be equal .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> OMG I actually agree with KK !


That's two people in one day!!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Dominic Raab will Vote for WA today, he hated it so much he resigned. May said she would stand down and he can throw his hat in the leadership bunfight, now it`s not so bad! Poor Will of the People must be feeling quite dizzy with all this chopping and changing!


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> not what I am force fed by a marketing campaign on a bus.


I never saw the bus; did anyone else?


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> I think we might be in agreement on something?


 That's a first, surely!!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> I am honestly not sure; I think she is looking completely shattered. She always had the bags under the eyes, but now they are double deckers. She is looking totally defeated.


 The bags under her eyes are probably due to the weight to those great huge necklaces she wears


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> That's two people in one day!!


Im in shock . I going to have a lie down.  Actually its time for my afternoon nap anyway .!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> I never saw the bus; did anyone else?


 Not in person no but I saw it all the time on the news almost daily and it was definitely on a number of leave leaflets I had pushed through my door. Hard to miss it really!


----------



## AlexPed2393

kimthecat said:


> OMG I actually agree with KK ! I almost feel sorry for white men nowadays . I think there was a case recently where a white man was turned down for a promotion in the police force and he took them to court and the court agreed that he was discriminated against.
> 
> I can see why various groups are bitter , I feel quite bitter about the way women were treated in the 70s but in the end I want everyone to be equal .


It wasn't for promotion, it was to be employed


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> That's a first, surely!!


There might have been a few fleeting moments in the past where we didn't want to say it


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> the leadership bunfight,


It seems to me to be the last job on earth that any sane (??) person would want at this point in the proceedings. Can there really be a queue for the job?


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Anyway, happy brexit day everyone:Wtf


----------



## Calvine

I read that Donald Trump favours BJ for the job . . . just when you thought things could get no worse!! (Just saying.):Hilarious


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Genuine question because I really don`t know - the people protesting at Westminster today are in favour of leaving and today is the day we should have left so hence gathering today, that much I do understand but...… what do they want? Do they want the deal to pass or not? If it passes are they going to be happy or not? I`m not sure because it seemed they were shouting about making MPs vote which I presume means they want them to pass the deal. I`m trying to keep up but by heck it`s not easy!


----------



## Magyarmum

The lobby is clearing and they're off to vote. 

From the verbal response when asked, the Noes sounded much louder that the Ayes which doesn't bode well for TM.

The suspense begins!


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> It seems to me to be the last job on earth that any sane (??) person would want at this point in the proceedings. Can there really be a queue for the job?


Gove, Johnson, Raab, Hunt etc ...All of these hard right zealots are desperate to oust May so they can turn the UK into deregulated tax haven. The disaster capitalists are rubbing their hands in anticipation. May will go down as the worst PM in modern times - I predict her successor will be far worse than she has been.

.

...............


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Even if Brexit were to happen tomorrow, what ******** planet are they from?
> 
> Did they really think 'we would all' celebrate with street parties? Nice little image of an, "all white Britain" here.
> 
> No bloody chance.
> 
> View attachment 398434


This is part of the trouble really.

A lot of the voters who wanted Brexit also are those who want to go back to street party days, and those days are gone. No amount of nostalgia will bring them back.

Oh, and wow, that's a really white setting. Looks like not a soul there has even an ounce of melanin!!!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I prefer to see myself as 'colour blind'.


And yet you made that comment about white people on that photo.

So you are 'colour blind' as long as they aren't white?


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> This is part of the trouble really.
> 
> A lot of the voters who wanted Brexit also are those who want to go back to street party days, and those days are gone. No amount of nostalgia will bring them back.
> 
> Oh, and wow, that's a really white setting. Looks like not a soul there has even an ounce of melanin!!!


So bloody what?

What strange comments on that photo....


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes - 286 Noes - 344

PM speaking now and saying 

"We will continue process on Monday to see if there is an alternative solution"

What now?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> And yet you made that comment about white people on that photo.
> 
> So you are 'colour blind' as long as they aren't white?


I came to the conclusion long ago that KK is a "closet racist"!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Ayes - 286 Noes - 344
> 
> PM speaking now and saying
> 
> "We will continue process on Monday to see if there is an alternative solution"
> 
> What now?


OMG What a relief. I feared she might win this time.


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum "The lobby is clearing and they're off to vote.

From the verbal response when asked, the Noes sounded much louder that the Ayes which doesn't bode well for TM.

The suspense begins!

*What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from. "*

Already ! Its nerve racking.


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> So bloody what?
> 
> What strange comments on that photo....


So what, what? What are you saying 'so what' to?


----------



## Jesthar

3dogs2cats said:


> Genuine question because I really don`t know - the people protesting at Westminster today are in favour of leaving and today is the day we should have left so hence gathering today, that much I do understand but...… what do they want? Do they want the deal to pass or not? If it passes are they going to be happy or not? I`m not sure because it seemed they were shouting about making MPs vote which I presume means they want them to pass the deal. I`m trying to keep up but by heck it`s not easy!


I may be doing them an injustice, but f they were honest about it the people protesting probably don't really have any answer to that beyond 'Leave means Leave' and 'We voted Out' etc. Beyond that, I doubt more than a few have given rigorous thought to the consequences beyond 'it's all Project Fear.'

I think I'm fairly safe in saying that whatever happens, they're _not _going to be happy...


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> So what, what? What are you saying 'so what' to?


Your last ridiculous sentence in the post I quoted.


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> Your last ridiculous sentence in the post I quoted.


It's hardly ridiculous. The whole picture is full of white people.

And it's quite true. It's not representative of Britain as it actually is. Never can you find a collection of so many white people, the fact there it is speaks volumes. It's not really anything to be dismissed. If something isn't representative of everyone, there's a reason why.


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> This is part of the trouble really.
> 
> A lot of the voters who wanted Brexit also are those who want to go back to street party days, and those days are gone. No amount of nostalgia will bring them back.
> 
> Oh, and wow, that's a really white setting. Looks like not a soul there has even an ounce of melanin!!!


The photo looks like the Queens silver Jubliee street party in the 70s .
Areas werent so mixed race then . If it was now it would be more mixed race.

Things like street parties would be bonding now. A chance to meet your neighbours but people are too busy now and dont have the time.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

3dogs2cats said:


> Genuine question because I really don`t know - the people protesting at Westminster today are in favour of leaving and today is the day we should have left so hence gathering today, that much I do understand but...… what do they want? Do they want the deal to pass or not? If it passes are they going to be happy or not? I`m not sure because it seemed they were shouting about making MPs vote which I presume means they want them to pass the deal. I`m trying to keep up but by heck it`s not easy!


Well in answer my own question they are apparently shouting `shame on you` so presumably they are not happy with the result, they wanted the deal to pass and don't agree with the Brexiteers who have voted the deal down. I thought this march was the one Farage was supporting ? so maybe he supports the WA now!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> I came to the conclusion long ago that KK is a "closet racist"!


Says the one who endorses a platform for far right propaganda


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> It wasn't for promotion, it was to be employed


I know but it shows discrimination goes on.


----------



## KittenKong

Third time unlucky! :Hilarious

Will May hold a fourth vote on her deal?!


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> It's hardly ridiculous. The whole picture is full of white people.
> 
> And it's quite true. It's not representative of Britain as it actually is. Never can you find a collection of so many white people, the fact there it is speaks volumes. It's not really anything to be dismissed. If something isn't representative of everyone, there's a reason why.


It's representative of the place it was taken. What do you want people to do, pay a few token ethnic minorities to turn up to even up the count?


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> It's representative of the place it was taken. What do you want people to do, pay a few token ethnic minorities to turn up to even up the count?


Now who's being ridiculous?


----------



## AlexPed2393

emmaviolet said:


> Now who's being ridiculous?


You are. If for example this was done in my home town, there were 2-3 ethnic minority families there in about 500-600 families...


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> OMG What a relief. I feared she might win this time.





kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum "The lobby is clearing and they're off to vote.
> 
> From the verbal response when asked, the Noes sounded much louder that the Ayes which doesn't bode well for TM.
> 
> The suspense begins!
> 
> *What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from. "*
> 
> Already ! Its nerve racking.


They voted against it - 286 for and 344 against.

Then various MP's stood up and ranted and now they've all gone home and won't be back until Monday!



kimthecat said:


> The photo looks like the Queens silver Jubliee street party in the 70s .
> Areas werent so mixed race then . If it was now it would be more mixed race.


Yup it was a photo of a street party taken from a Daily Mail article.

Here's another one .................


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> The photo looks like the Queens silver Jubliee street party in the 70s .
> Areas werent so mixed race then . If it was now it would be more mixed race.
> 
> Things like street parties would be bonding now. A chance to meet your neighbours but people are too busy now and dont have the time.


That's not the 70s. Look at the fashions and everything. Loads of street parties happened during the Diamond Jubilee. That one is one of them. In Ashby De La Zouch I believe.

So street parties still happen where there is a community focus. Perhaps more thought needs to go into why the community focus is being lost....


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> Now who's being ridiculous?


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> Third time unlucky! :Hilarious
> 
> Will May hold a fourth vote on her deal?!


Anyone else would resign, but she seems hellbent on leaving if she succeeds!

TBH I don't really want her to go, she'll only leave a void filled by the harder right, and she's so incompetent, it's actually working out well for those of us who don't want this Brexit mess. As long as she's this inept, I say keep her!


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> OMG What a relief. I feared she might win this time.


Me too. I couldn't bare to see the vile woman gloat then announce she was staying on as PM in the 'National Interest', despite pledging she would resign yesterday.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> It's representative of the place it was taken. What do you want people to do, pay a few token ethnic minorities to turn up to even up the count?


I think perhaps the point being made is the photo chosen _could _have been more representitive of the wide ethnic diversity displayed in the UK today, but _may _have been deliberately selected so it wasn't.

Either way, it's a bit of a daft and irrelevant thing to be having a handbags-in-the-carpark moment over, hmm?  Far more important things going on...


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I came to the conclusion long ago that KK is a "closet racist"!


:Hilarious


----------



## AB123

> TBH I don't really want her to go, she'll only leave a void filled by the harder right, and she's so incompetent, it's actually working out well for those of us who don't want this Brexit mess. As long as she's this inept, I say keep her!


Completely agree Emma Violet, hopefully she'll make everyone fed up enough to revoke article 50!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> I may be doing them an injustice, but f they were honest about it the people protesting probably don't really have any answer to that beyond 'Leave means Leave' and 'We voted Out' etc. Beyond that, I doubt more than a few have given rigorous thought to the consequences beyond 'it's all Project Fear.'
> 
> I think I'm fairly safe in saying that whatever happens, they're _not _going to be happy...


Thank you Jesthar, Yes the one thing we can be sure of is they are not happy, although the No dealer group must be a bit happier maybe than the Leave means Leave but doesn`t matter how we leave, any old rubbish deal will do, group!


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Third time unlucky! :Hilarious
> 
> Will May hold a fourth vote on her deal?!


Oh Yes of course she will! She can`t possible deny us all the May the Fourth ….. jokes


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> That's not the 70s. Look at the fashions and everything. Loads of street parties happened during the Diamond Jubilee. That one is one of them. In Ashby De La Zouch I believe.
> 
> So street parties still happen where there is a community focus. Perhaps more thought needs to go into why the community focus is being lost....


I got confused because it wasn't pouring with rain in the photo. I dont think there were many here. i dont remember any streets being closed.

Here , outskirts of West London/Middlesex , Community is dying off here because people cant be bothered or are too busy . 
The last few years , family houses have been sold and bought under buy to let. Private renting people don't stay long. Houses are also turned into multiple occupancy , students , casual workers and they arent interested in getting to know you or local affairs.


----------



## KittenKong

Expect her to express her anger on National tv tonight!
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Will May hold a fourth vote on her deal?


 Nothing would surprise me any more!! It was suggested that they might have to cancel their Easter leave, tho' I do not see that happening.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

So Moggy, who said he would not abandon the DUP and would only vote for the deal if they felt they could support it, voted for it anyway despite the DUP making it very clear they were voting against! What a man of principal he is!


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> Genuine question because I really don`t know - the people protesting at Westminster today are in favour of leaving and today is the day we should have left so hence gathering today, that much I do understand but...… what do they want? Do they want the deal to pass or not? If it passes are they going to be happy or not? I`m not sure because it seemed they were shouting about making MPs vote which I presume means they want them to pass the deal. I`m trying to keep up but by heck it`s not easy!


Yeah, that's a good one. A certain former forum member was just as confusing as he appeared to want no deal one minute then May's deal the next.

The question now is, do these protestors today now back May's deal as her Brexit is better than no Brexit at all?

Who knows...


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Says the one who endorses a platform for far right propaganda


Nearly wet myself reading this ..... just goes to prove that you don't know everything as you seem to believe .... in fact you know very little at least about me.

Before I went to work in a Muslim French Overseas Department, I spent the previous 10 years working for organisations helping disadvantaged black people in KwaZulu-Natal.

https://www.kznblind.org.za/index.php






http://www.kznhealth.gov.za/stmarys/Newsletter/December-2018.pdf

I worked on HIV/AIDS home care Projects in the KZN Heartlands with a group of Sangomas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_healers_of_South_Africa










Doubt whether I would have lasted very long if I was the racist you seem to believe I am or held the views you so wrongly attribute to me!


----------



## kimthecat

Boris voted for it. Seems labour didnt. A ploy to get themselves into power maybe.


----------



## welshdoglover

29th March 2019 will go down the day that democracy died , I am ashamed.


----------



## Arnie83

welshdoglover said:


> 29th March 2019 will go down the day that democracy died , I am ashamed.


While I would disagree in any case, Brexit hasn't been cancelled, merely postponed. I think it most likely that it will still happen. And if it doesn't it will ONLY be as the result of a further vote by the people. And that's democracy.


----------



## KittenKong

welshdoglover said:


> 29th March 2019 will go down the day that democracy died , I am ashamed.


Lies, cheating, lawbreaking and promises of the undeliverable has no place in a democracy.

Oh yes, I'll mention £350m for the NHS again with no apologies for doing so.

And, did Theresa May pledge to offer what you voted for? Her deal was as unpopular with most Brexit supporters as it was for Remainers.

Would honouring her form of Brexit respect democracy as you put it?


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> While I would disagree in any case, Brexit hasn't been cancelled, merely postponed. I think it most likely that it will still happen. And if it doesn't it will ONLY be as the result of a further vote by the people. And that's democracy.


Is there a way of liking your post twice?


----------



## KittenKong

I laughed out loud when I first saw this but on reflection I expected better from the poster as not to personally insult forum members. Shame on you.







If I saw this picture in my local evening paper this is one thing but this is UKIP we're on about. You know the party that now endorses Steven Yaxley-Lennon?

It comes over as being deliberately utilised by them as it depicts "White Brits" celebrating.

Then, of course they utilised all "none white" faces for their "Breaking Point" poster in 2016.


----------



## cheekyscrip

3dogs2cats said:


> So Moggy, who said he would not abandon the DUP and would only vote for the deal if they felt they could support it, voted for it anyway despite the DUP making it very clear they were voting against! What a man of principal he is!


Don't be hard on him. He hopes for her chair, she promised when she goes ...

Parliament proved they don't like May but hate her Deal even more!!!

I think best will be if we send her to EU as our MEP chosen in next election.... she can take BoJo along...to lighten the mood after her performances...

To balance we can send Corbyn too...

Both parties need new leaders... IMO:Bag


----------



## Jonescat

Magyarmum said:


> They voted against it - 286 for and 344 against.
> 
> Then various MP's stood up and ranted and now they've all gone home and won't be back until Monday!


Not quite what I saw, which only goes to show that any two people will take two different things away from any experience.

I saw the PM say that we were nearly at the end of this process, but it would go on until Monday. I took from that that if Monday is not conclusive then something very different like a GE, or a procedural wriggle to let them end this session, or revoking A50, will have to happen.

Most of the leaders of political parties then had a chance to speak but no-one else, which I think is fairly normal. I don't remember Plaid Cymru being called but TIGs/Change was, which was odd. Maybe PC were crying in the corner. Labour and SNP called for a GE, Liberals and Greens wasted their time, TIGs wanted a PV and the DUP almost begged for the PM to sort out the border issue before she bring it back again, as they have to vote against it otherwise. Then the Speaker let them out of detention. Presumably to spend the weekend on their homework, which is to get enough people to agree on something on Monday to end this.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Nearly wet myself reading this ..... just goes to prove that you don't know everything as you seem to believe .... in fact you know very little at least about me.
> 
> Before I went to work in a Muslim French Overseas Department, I spent the previous 10 years working for organisations helping disadvantaged black people in KwaZulu-Natal.
> 
> https://www.kznblind.org.za/index.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.kznhealth.gov.za/stmarys/Newsletter/December-2018.pdf
> 
> I worked on HIV/AIDS home care Projects in the KZN Heartlands with a group of Sangomas
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_healers_of_South_Africa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt whether I would have lasted very long if I was the racist you seem to believe I am or held the views you so wrongly attribute to me!


What an amazing life you have led. you have done so much to help people.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jonescat said:


> Not quite what I saw, which only goes to show that any two people will take two different things away from any experience.
> 
> I saw the PM say that we were nearly at the end of this process, but it would go on until Monday. I took from that that if Monday is not conclusive then something very different like a GE, or a procedural wriggle to let them end this session, or revoking A50, will have to happen.
> 
> Most of the leaders of political parties then had a chance to speak but no-one else, which I think is fairly normal. I don't remember Plaid Cymru being called but TIGs/Change was, which was odd. Maybe PC were crying in the corner. Labour and SNP called for a GE, Liberals and Greens wasted their time, TIGs wanted a PV and the DUP almost begged for the PM to sort out the border issue before she bring it back again, as they have to vote against it otherwise. Then the Speaker let them out of detention. Presumably to spend the weekend on their homework, which is to get enough people to agree on something on Monday to end this.


I have to admit I wasn't able to pay much attention to what was going on after the vote had been announced because the dogs walker arrived and I was in the kitchen faffing around with them. As a result I only heard snatches of what was being said and by the time I got back into the living room the Speaker was busy shooing them all out of the door!


----------



## KittenKong

This is getting beyond bloody ridiculous. I would've thought even her most loyal supporters would agree.


----------



## cheekyscrip

In all that don’t forget:
ERG is behind this botched referendum, the lies, the red lines.

Club of cynical privileged toffs sponsored by the like of Aaron Banks, Murdoch, Bow Group sending this country down the creek without a paddle.


Those are the Enemies of the People.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398540
> 
> This is getting beyond bloody ridiculous. I would've thought even her most loyal supporters would agree.


But for the People, one vote is all you get.


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> But for the People, one vote is all you get.


It's getting a little bonkers isn't it?


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> In all that don't forget:
> ERG is behind this botched referendum, the lies, the red lines.
> 
> Club of cynical privileged toffs sponsored by the like of Aaron Banks, Murdoch, Bow Group sending this country down the creek without a paddle.
> 
> Those are the Enemies of the People.


I don't think they are the enemies, but for them, the little people really don't matter. It has seemed to me a Tory thing since I was one of 3 million unemployed people in Thatcher's Britain and was told that my lack of a job and financial strife was 'a price worth paying'.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> It's getting a little bonkers isn't it?


I think we passed the point of it being a little bonkers quite some time ago... This surely must meet the criteria for full on insanity!


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1405117369652325&id=365076723656400


----------



## Mrs.Zee

So let me summarize all what happened in a week: British people have no idea what will happen, nor will the businesses and losses are made every single day, investments put on hold, people´s future plans on hold and there are still some, who think this is ok?

One of the really confusing thing for us in EU has been to try to figure out, who still supports Brexit, after all the facts and experiences from the last two years? The popular understanding why Brexit happened to start with is this: a country with many people felt they were not listened to and had lots of problems just to make it. Populist politicians spoke to them, promising everything they wanted and who pointed out that it wasn´t good old heroic British, who were to blame, but outsiders who were guilty of everything wrong (=EU/ immigration). That is easy to understand, as all populists use the same rhetoric. Trump, Le Penn, Berlusconi, Orbin, Boris, Jacob etc. The message is always the same. They also deliver the same, Zero. But they keep on blaming the outsiders with simple slogans and images and use fear as their inspiration. Brexit is simply a mocktail of genuine desperation, empty promises and catchy slogans delivered by heartless politicians. Can happen in any country really, for a while anyway. 

But what we cannot understand is, when an endless amount of evidence of how harmful Brexit is, many still keep on supporting it and believing that one day the cavalry of unicorns will come and Britain will become a superpower, ruling the seas and telling the whole world what they should do. 

Once the empty promises are being revealed to be just lies, the policy is to try to change the topic to anything else, as long as people wouldn´t ask what happened to the promise making their lives actually better. The pattern between Trump´s politics and Brexit is so similar and while most British can see through the Trump, it looks like that seeing what Brexit really is, is not so easy for some. That I can understand, people should have some trust in politicians in a democracy. I just hope that in time, with more and more facts pouring about the "enemies" (EU and immigration) are communicated, people realize how harmful Brexit is for them. 

But what even the most ardent admirers and loyal fellow conservatives don´t understand is that how so many Brexit politicians can still simply lie and get away with it. They´d be dragged out to the gallows where they rightly belong. So, what do you think should happen to May and her cohorts for their part in this organised national chaos?


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think they are the enemies, but for them, the little people really don't matter. It has seemed to me a Tory thing since I was one of 3 million unemployed people in Thatcher's Britain and was told that my lack of a job and financial strife was 'a price worth paying'.


I was one of Thatchers unemployed . I was claiming unemployment benefit and was able to start my own business through a scheme where you would receive the same amount of benefit for a year so that was a great help. Whatever anyone says about her I have reason to be grateful to her.


----------



## Satori

Magyarmum said:


> Nearly wet myself reading this ..... just goes to prove that you don't know everything as you seem to believe .... in fact you know very little at least about me.
> 
> Before I went to work in a Muslim French Overseas Department, I spent the previous 10 years working for organisations helping disadvantaged black people in KwaZulu-Natal.
> 
> https://www.kznblind.org.za/index.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.kznhealth.gov.za/stmarys/Newsletter/December-2018.pdf
> 
> I worked on HIV/AIDS home care Projects in the KZN Heartlands with a group of Sangomas
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_healers_of_South_Africa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt whether I would have lasted very long if I was the racist you seem to believe I am or held the views you so wrongly attribute to me!


Respect.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Mrs.Zee

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398540
> 
> This is getting beyond bloody ridiculous. I would've thought even her most loyal supporters would agree.


About the fourth vote: There was a joke in our newspaper about Brexit:

Year 2033:

May wins her 433th vote on her deal and our government will agree on how many districts there will be in our new "Sote" plan. (social health care renewal plan): an image of a guy reading a newspaper and the wife hardly blinking.

("Sote" was supposed to happen too, but after about 10 different votes, never got passed, as it was deemed to be unconstitutional creating inequality. It took about 1000 different analysis, 100000 different documents etc. but still it was rubbish to start with and the politicians just coudn´t hide that.)

So we all have our idiotic plans and fairy tails and we believe them too, for a while. So we do understand and empathize with you people. Just throw the politicians out and get better ones... you really deserve better than this.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398553


 Its the votes that counts , not how many people turn up for a march . Why would people bother going to a demo when they've already won the vote ? 
How do you know that all those people on the Remain march are eligible to vote anyway. 
If Brexit doesn't go through then I think there would be many more leavers on a march.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think they are the enemies, but for them, the little people really don't matter. It has seemed to me a Tory thing since I was one of 3 million unemployed people in Thatcher's Britain and was told that my lack of a job and financial strife was 'a price worth paying'.


There are always ways to get a job. You could have just pretended to be an economist for example.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Its the votes that counts , not how many people turn up for a march . Why would people bother going to a demo when they've already won the vote ?
> How do you know that all those people on the Remain march are eligible to vote anyway.
> If Brexit doesn't go through then I think there would be many more leavers on a march.


This was posted in response to someone, not yourself, arguing why 16m didn't turn up at last Saturday's march a few pages back.

I'd say to her, where are the 17m?


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> There are always ways to get a job. You could have just pretended to be an economist for example.


How does one pretend to be an economist?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398555
> View attachment 398556


Where are the black , Asian people here ?
Same thing, it looks all white .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Where are the black , Asian people here ?
> Same thing, it looks all white .


I've counted at least three in this photo. They are wonderful people, all of them.

I was proud to be amongst them last Saturday.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I've counted at least three in this photo. They are wonderful people, all of them.
> 
> I was proud to be amongst them last Saturday.


Well, threes a lot .  I agree it was a good march .

I think we can agree Tommy Robinson is awful and he shouldn't be allowed to speak in public. Even Farage doesn't like him

*Nigel Farage says Ukip's appointment of Tommy Robinson is 'dragging us in a shameful direction'*

*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...oming-gangs-islam-prison-reform-a8647921.html*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

Mrs.Zee said:


> About the fourth vote: There was a joke in our newspaper about Brexit:
> 
> Year 2033:
> 
> May wins her 433th vote on her deal and our government will agree on how many districts there will be in our new "Sote" plan. (social health care renewal plan): an image of a guy reading a newspaper and the wife hardly blinking.
> 
> ("Sote" was supposed to happen too, but after about 10 different votes, never got passed, as it was deemed to be unconstitutional creating inequality. It took about 1000 different analysis, 100000 different documents etc. but still it was rubbish to start with and the politicians just coudn´t hide that.)
> 
> So we all have our idiotic plans and fairy tails and we believe them too, for a while. So we do understand and empathize with you people. Just throw the politicians out and get better ones... you really deserve better than this.


I was about to post same thing... just Year 2030..... :Hilarious:Hilarious

Just one thing is obvious: no such thing as a good Brexit.

British people can see Trump for what he is because they have some distance...

Come to Gibraltar... climb the Rock and you will have a bit of perspective.

Sordid business... what it reminds me of you can guess... but I will avoid those comparisons as cause upset..:Banghead


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398552
> :Hilarious
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1405117369652325&id=365076723656400


Three years ago I saw it coming ... people called me ridicoulous ... the easiest Deal ever...

Brexit is Brexit ...

This is what you voted for...

Referendum when people have no idea what they are voting for should be void.

Agree a Deal that is between... Norway Plus, Customs Union /after all the vote went half and half and ask people if they want it or remain...

Finish that sorry affair and move on...

One Direction....


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47755611


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Well, threes a lot .  I agree it was a good march .
> 
> I think we can agree Tommy Robinson is awful and he shouldn't be allowed to speak in public. Even Farage doesn't like him
> 
> *Nigel Farage says Ukip's appointment of Tommy Robinson is 'dragging us in a shameful direction'*
> 
> *https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...oming-gangs-islam-prison-reform-a8647921.html*


While I agree SY-L is worse than Farage he must bear some responsibility for dragging him out of the underground and into the limelight as should people like Theresa May, the media and the BBC for fuelling hatred in the first place. There is always someone worse that takes over.

I reckon Farage is only upset as he's stealing the limelight from him.

Expect the BBC to have SY-L as a frequent guest on 'Question Time" soon. It wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## KittenKong

Very true to the way I feel as seen on FB

Well the Leavers managed a bigger crowd than I expected, but still dwarfed by our march last Saturday. What is depressing are the photos and reports: apparently eleven different factions (some hating each other); drunkenness and aggressive chanting; some quite hate-filled placards; and of course, racists like Batten and Robinson being given a platform and large screens for the assembled crowd to cheer on. 

I don’t care if you are an elderly Daily Mail reader without a racist bone in your body - you were standing shoulder to shoulder with pure unadulterated racists. 

When I look at these people, flying their Union Jacks, I think: what if MV4 gets passed? What if these people win? What if this is the face of my country? And it REALLY depresses me. This is not the country I want to be a part of. All that hate. All that bile.

Saturday was so positive, so life-affirming. Today just chills you. Is this our future? In thrall to the wishes of these (insert your own word here).

It’s sad how the Union Jack now just makes me feel sick. And all those today waving their flags, baying their hate, just make it worse.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Very true to the way I feel as seen on FB
> 
> Well the Leavers managed a bigger crowd than I expected, but still dwarfed by our march last Saturday. What is depressing are the photos and reports: apparently eleven different factions (some hating each other); drunkenness and aggressive chanting; some quite hate-filled placards; and of course, racists like Batten and Robinson being given a platform and large screens for the assembled crowd to cheer on.
> 
> I don't care if you are an elderly Daily Mail reader without a racist bone in your body - you were standing shoulder to shoulder with pure unadulterated racists.
> 
> When I look at these people, flying their Union Jacks, I think: what if MV4 gets passed? What if these people win? What if this is the face of my country? And it REALLY depresses me. This is not the country I want to be a part of. All that hate. All that bile.
> 
> Saturday was so positive, so life-affirming. Today just chills you. Is this our future? In thrall to the wishes of these (insert your own word here).
> 
> It's sad how the Union Jack now just makes me feel sick. And all those today waving their flags, baying their hate, just make it worse.


I have English friends here, voted Leave because "felt patriotic "... now are worried about their future in Gibraltar... and want to go to New Zealand... "because of all that hatred in Britain and that [email protected]@dy mess"...
Oh, and what about the ski trips to France...

No unicorn in sight... 
:Chicken


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I have English friends here, voted Leave because "felt patriotic "... now are worried about their future in Gibraltar... and want to go to New Zealand... "because of all that hatred in Britain and that [email protected]@dy mess"...
> Oh, and what about the ski trips to France...
> 
> No unicorn in sight...
> :Chicken


Indeed. I certainly accept many leave voters would be horrified at how things are turning out, how the Nazi/Fascists have taken over the desire to leave the EU. Something I strongly predicted would happen, which is why Brexit will never be in my name. It represents everything I detest.

I have friends who voted leave too and still believe in Brexit on principle, but are horrified at the way things have turned out.

Remarkably, I've heard some in the DUP are arguing they'd rather remain now they are belatedly realising Brexit could result in the break up of the UK.


----------



## KittenKong

Just delightful. The thing that was so magical about us last Saturday was it didn't matter what one's political allegiances are, your background, skin colour or whatever. We were united in love for the one issue most dear to us all. Speakers came from all central political parties, not forgetting Michael Hestletine who gave one of the best speeches of the day.

In contrast- look at this.

All I can say is thank God Europe saw us last week and not only these thugs, racists and bigots. They may think they represent 'their country'.

Football hooligans don't represent their team.

And more news- Dominic Grieve has reportedly been deselected by his local Conservative party which will rule him out as a potential future PM.

Many of you will recall Corbyn's disgraceful sacking of Owen Smith as shadow NI secretary, think that was his job title, when he spoke out in support of a PV a year or two back.

Seems Tories are no longer allowed an opinion that differs from Theresa May nowadays too.

I should be happy waking up this morning to find myself still considered formally to be an EU citizen which was unexpected.










https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...X19b5JhhuHqIMjyFVyocWReQ-4#Echobox=1553897179


----------



## KittenKong

Ironically I'm beginning to feel a tinge of nostalgia for the days leading Conservative politicians were centre right moderates, you know the likes of John Major and Michael Hestletine. This coming from a (former for now) Labour voter!

Richard Ashworth is another example, though I understand he left the party in 2017. Makes you wonder why.

He is spot on here.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156360714817689&id=291699857688


----------



## KittenKong

Fascists at war despite a common cause. Pathetic.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 398583


I think the idea is that when we have control of our borders we can keep the world out. (The fact that we already have control doesn't feature in the argument!)


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on FB:

I remember asking my history teacher, "How did he get away with this? Why did the German people not rise up against him?"

Now I totally get it.

1. Division
2. Distraction
3. Delusion

Mass Media.
Apathy.
Fear.
Poverty.
Crisis Crisis Crisis.

It's an ONSLAUGHT.

And just this second it's reminded me of something.

We (the population) are in a relationship with our government.

They are Gas Lighting us!
They are intimidating us!
They keep us in line, in fear, impossibly trying to make ends meat, looking inwards, blaming ourselves for ALL the problems, isolating us from our friends (the EU)

If they were treating us well & had honest intentions they wouldn't need to.

We are in an abusive relationship! 

Omg.


----------



## Arnie83

From the Beeb

Thousands of Leave supporters have protested at Westminster against the delay to Brexit, on the day the UK had been due to leave the EU.

Some demonstrators reacted with cheers, while others shouted "shame on you", as MPs rejected Prime Minister Theresa May's EU withdrawal agreement.​
What strikes me about this is that even among those who feel sufficiently strongly about Brexit as to get out and protest / march there are diametrically opposite views; some cheered, some shouted 'shame on you'.

It has been the problem all along. 'Leave' was never defined in 2016, and there has never since been anything like a majority supporting any one particular definition.

May's job, and Parliament's job, has always been impossible because the referendum was so logically flawed. The Will of the People has never been determined beyond that single word 3 years ago, yet, still, all sorts of factions pretend to represent it.

That's why it is so important for them to deny an informed vote; no version of 'Leave' - as we've seen in Parliament - will command a majority.


----------



## KittenKong

Looks like May is definitely going for MV4 next week. Apparently the argument that her defeat of under three figures is now seen as a, "Step in the right direction". And many Brexit supporters argue about us, " Not respecting democracy"?

Even the BBC Radio 4 news reported this with a sound of pessimism.

Rumour has it May will attach a clause 'respecting' the Customs Union which goes against her manifesto pledge which in itself she didn't get a majority on under current rules. This would also open yet another can of worms that could implode the entire party. The ERG for one wouldn't like that.

I was right though- she has not resigned. She wouldn't have even if she won yesterday.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Cornwall For Europe:


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Cornwall For Europe:
> 
> View attachment 398599


For me it simply brings to mind the prehistoric tribe, tattoed with war paint, holding spears above their heads, high on some root-derived drug, screaming at anyone threatening their territory ...


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Well, threes a lot .  I agree it was a good march .
> 
> I think we can agree Tommy Robinson is awful and he shouldn't be allowed to speak in public. Even Farage doesn't like him
> 
> *Nigel Farage says Ukip's appointment of Tommy Robinson is 'dragging us in a shameful direction'*
> 
> *https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...oming-gangs-islam-prison-reform-a8647921.html*


THIS!

*Tom Cornish*‏ @Thomas_Cornish1 14h14 hours ago
_Farage using words and phrases such as "betrayal" and "enemy territory". And he thinks he's different from Tommy Robinson! 
It's like he has forgotten Jo Cox was murdered by a far-right extremist who would use the exact same language._

Also this.

_Can't believe anyone could be in a rally with the likes of Farage and Tommy Robinson and genuinely think they were on the right side of history...
....._


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> the racist you seem to believe I am


Who thinks this? Did I miss something or is it the result of having a couple on ''ignore''? I have never noticed anything untoward in your posts.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-is-the-man-behind-the-fishing-for-leave-protest


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> THIS!
> 
> *Tom Cornish*‏ @Thomas_Cornish1 14h14 hours ago
> _Farage using words and phrases such as "betrayal" and "enemy territory". And he thinks he's different from Tommy Robinson!
> It's like he has forgotten Jo Cox was murdered by a far-right extremist who would use the exact same language._
> 
> Also this.
> 
> _Can't believe anyone could be in a rally with the likes of Farage and Tommy Robinson and genuinely think they were on the right side of history...
> ....._


Farage is a modern day Oswald Mosley. SY-L is his rival. Guess it can't be a bad thing these fascists fighting amongst themselves despite their common causes. Their supporters thrive on bigotry and violence as football hooligans do. It's their mentality. They'll fight amongst themselves like undisciplined tribes.

Divided they fall as the saying goes but I fear, "Things will get worse before they get better" to quote a Tory soundbite


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Who thinks this? Did I miss something or is it the result of having a couple on ''ignore''? I have never noticed anything untoward in your posts.











If this is not a personal attack please tell me what it is.

At no time have I directly targeted anyone saying, "You are a racist".


----------



## Happy Paws2

When will she learn everyone has had enough

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> When will she learn everyone has had enough
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122


Until she gets her deal passed. Just you wait, they'll be a fifth attempt.

Just hope it's an early April Fool but I doubt it.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> For me it simply brings to mind the prehistoric tribe, tattoed with war paint, holding spears above their heads, high on some root-derived drug, screaming at anyone threatening their territory ...


Native people that modern man murders, imprisons and enslaves and whose customs, families and groups we destroy? Those tribes?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ntacted-tribe-indigenous-people-amazon-video/


----------



## bearcub

KittenKong said:


> Cornwall For Europe:
> 
> View attachment 398599


I count myself as a fairly intelligent person but after 3 years I'm yet to understand what these people think Brexit has to do with Muslims :Banghead


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Native people that modern man murders, imprisons and enslaves and whose customs, families and groups we destroy? Those tribes?
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ntacted-tribe-indigenous-people-amazon-video/


No. "Prehistoric", as I said.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> When will she learn everyone has had enough
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122


If she were to add in a Customs Union (with weasel words to make it look like she wasn't crossing a red line) and promise to put it to a confirmatory public vote, then I think she'd get it through.

Watch this space!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> No. "Prehistoric", as I said.


You mean more like these then????

Seems to me they were too "otherwise engaged" to be bothered defending their territory

https://www.history.com/news/neanderthal-human-interbreeding-mating-discovery

*Neanderthals and Humans Were No One Night Stand*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You mean more like these then????
> 
> Seems to me they were too "otherwise engaged" to be bothered defending their territory
> 
> https://www.history.com/news/neanderthal-human-interbreeding-mating-discovery
> 
> *Neanderthals and Humans Were No One Night Stand*


Nope, not them either! Nor the Denisovans, or the Floriensis, nor any of the other non-Sapiens 'species' that were around at the time!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> If she were to add in a Customs Union (with weasel words to make it look like she wasn't crossing a red line) and promise to put it to a confirmatory public vote, then I think she'd get it through.
> 
> Watch this space!


I don't think the EDL wing would accept that though. Plus she would never call a PV even if the petition exceeded over 17m. May and her Tory hard right have their dream to bulldoze employee rights, human rights and standards.

This presumes she's permitted to hold the vote again which, by now, is beyond a farce.

It's suggested she'll call a GE if she fails again, yet no promise to stand down this time should she win. More rubbish. I can still see May carrying on and finding the excuse to avoid a 2023 GE if her position in the polls is poor at that time.

That could make a difference with the former opponents who voted for her deal this time as an attempt to replace her.

Theresa May is beyond deluded. She has failed to deliver Brexit on 29/03/19, nor have her deal passed on three attempts. She just can't accept that, yet insists Remainers must accept the Referendum result and are shut up and treated as if they don't exist. Conversely Brexit supporters must accept her deal as she claims to be delivering what they voted for.

True perhaps with the thick who can't get beyond the 'Brexit Means Brexit', 'Out Is Out' and 'We Voted To Leave' sound bites who'd accept anything if presented with the Union Flag.

_(Disclaimer- Not directed at any existing forum members here who at least try and justify their vote)._

Imagine the uproar had the SNP arranged another Independence Referendum twice shortly after losing it in 2014?

One rule for the Tories at all times.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I just hope that The Speaker won't allow her to put it forward again.


----------



## Arnie83

Happy Paws said:


> I just hope that The Speaker won't allow her to put it forward again.


He might very well not, I would have thought. But would that stop her putting it on a new referendum, I wonder? If there's no other way ...


----------



## KittenKong

Did anyone really vote Conservative and expected to get UKIP instead?


----------



## KittenKong

Attempt at preventing people leaving his beloved 'country' was he?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-arrested-brexit-england-flag-a8846666.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Attempt at preventing people leaving his beloved 'country' was he?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-arrested-brexit-england-flag-a8846666.html
> 
> View attachment 398675


He was sporting an England flag, but the Brexit connection, though it wouldn't surprise me, is unproven so far.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> He was sporting an England flag, but the Brexit connection, though it wouldn't surprise me, is unproven so far.


Guilty until proved innocent?


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Guilty until proved innocent?


Let's just say that The Independent does tend on occasion to favour anti-Brexit rhetoric somewhat over-enthusiastically!


----------



## cheekyscrip

bearcub said:


> I count myself as a fairly intelligent person but after 3 years I'm yet to understand what these people think Brexit has to do with Muslims :Banghead


Amazing!! We will have No Deal Brexit and all Muslim get deported to Muslimabad...
Simples.
And we will not let any more those EU immigration in.

No Deal will be the easiest deal ever, no brainer at all...

We will all be on WTF rules and take control.


----------



## KittenKong

Funny how the unelected hold the power being Rupert Murdoch or Arron Banks.

Note this is a _Conservative _MP I am defending, in the case of Dominic Grieve.

https://www.channel4.com/news/arron-banks-on-his-campaign-to-deselect-tory-mps-who-backed-remain


----------



## KittenKong

Doesn't help when their Union chief is as rabid a Brexit supporter as much as anyone on the far right is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

If only Labour sorted themselves...
We need the middle ground party so badly..


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I have never noticed anything untoward in your posts.


As someone who doesn't even recognise a blatant racist like Farage, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But jfyi, Westmonster is a well known far right propaganda platform which MM endorses as a 'highly reliable' source of facts. Its really concerning that swathes of ordinary decent people seem to be incapable of thinking critically even when something is so transparent as say Farage being a xenophobe or as the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, Westmonster being platforms for peddling lies & hate. Because people are getting their information from hateful right wing propagandists & outlets like the above we are seeing the rise of the far right again, not just here in the UK, also in the USA, Hungary.....right across the globe. We are living in VERY dangerous times indeed. LEST WE FORGET??

https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466

*WESTMONSTER - FASCIST FAKE NEWS*

It's not as if the Fake News offered by Westmonster is difficult to spot: stories of "Jihadists" in Germany (Breitbart knows all about sourcing its Fake News from there), claims of non-existent post-Brexit trade deals, smearing of those the Alt-Right (for which read the far right) don't like, propagandising for Nige and his pals, all are present.

And that logo looks vaguely fascist, with its W and M on a white background. All it needs now is a red background with a white circle in the centre and it will be a genuinely fascist one. Westmonster does no more than tread the same path as Breitbart - slavish adoration of Combover Crybaby Donald Trump, delusional promotion of Kippers, self-promotion (as if anyone cares), and selecting the bits of real news it approves of.
Read more at:https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> If only Labour sorted themselves...
> We need the middle ground party so badly..


What more would you want labour to do Cheeky? (Did you know Corbyn voted for a second referendum? )

*Lewis Goodall*‏Verified account:
_Whilst Tory whips have had a complete nightmare for months have to hand it to @labourwhips when it's mattered- they've kept nearly all their troops in line. 
Likewise Labour leadership has actually played its hand well. By contrast to Cons the party has (largely) stayed united.

.

_
A 'middle ground' party is why we ended up with the Cameron government & why the USA ended up with Trump. Millions of people are sick to death of neoliberalism Cheeky, they need a clear alternative to destructive right wing ideology. They are desperate for radical change. That will never happen under a centrist party which will always put big business before people & the planet. If we do not change tack to progressive politics, we will be unable to address climate change & time is fast running out. This is a fact.

.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Funny how the unelected hold the power being Rupert Murdoch or Arron Banks.
> 
> Note this is a _Conservative _MP I am defending, in the case of Dominic Grieve.
> 
> https://www.channel4.com/news/arron-banks-on-his-campaign-to-deselect-tory-mps-who-backed-remain
> 
> View attachment 398726
> View attachment 398727


The hard right are hijacking our country.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's sad how the Union Jack now just makes me feel sick. And all those today waving their flags, baying their hate, just make it worse.


Before my youngest Sons girlfriend moved in with him last year, he was renting a house with four other lads & would sometimes bring home his washing for me to do. This particular day, he brought home his duvet cover to wash & I sent back his clean Union Jack duvet cover. He asked me not to send that one again, because he doesn't want his mates thinking hes a kipper Like me, he too is now embarrassed by our flag. Its been hijacked by racists.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Before my youngest Sons girlfriend moved in with him last year, he was renting a house with four other lads & would sometimes bring home his washing for me to do. This particular day, he brought home his duvet cover to wash & I sent back his clean Union Jack duvet cover. He asked me not to send that one again, because he doesn't want his mates thinking hes a kipper Like me, he too is now embarrassed by our flag. Its been hijacked by racists.


One thing that worries me is cars may have to display the Union flag motif on number plates in future, like the Norwegian flag with their number plates.

I guess this would be very controversial in Scotland so hopefully they'll be allowed to display their own white cross on blue instead. Should this be the case I'll certainly be getting my next car from Scotland.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I guess this would be very controversial in Scotland so hopefully they'll be allowed to display their own white cross on blue instead. Should this be the case I'll certainly be getting my next car from Scotland.


Now this is a flag I'd be proud to sport. Sure my Son would too


----------



## KittenKong

I thought April 12th was significant in history.

Wonder if it was chosen deliberately or a pure coincidence?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I thought April 12th was significant in history.
> 
> Wonder if it was chosen deliberately or a pure coincidence?
> 
> View attachment 398781


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Now this is a flag I'd be proud to sport. Sure my Son would too


I'd be proud for my car to display this after Brexit.

Not only showing an Independent Scotland, but being in the EU as well!

I was over the moon when my 67 Reg car was delivered with EU plates by default. Didn't even need to ask for them.

I've seen a few new 19 reg cars with EU plates too. Interesting seeing the UK was originally scheduled to crash out at the end of the same month they were issued.


----------



## KittenKong

I'm reminded of the advice not to give money to beggars as they'll spend it down the pub.

Why do people vote for the vile, insensitive and damn right nasty?

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/people-fuming-over-esther-mcveys-16052306


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> One thing that worries me is cars may have to display the Union flag motif on number plates in future, like Norway does with their number plates.
> 
> I guess this would be very controversial in Scotland so hopefully they'll be allowed to display their own white cross on blue instead. Should this be the case I'll certainly be getting my next car from Scotland.


My son's yacht is registered in Scotland and flies the blue and white Saltire Flag.

My car only has the Hungarian Flag on the number plate but as it predates Hungary joining the EU, no EU flag.

My two dogs proudly wear the Union Jack on one side of their harnesses and the Hungarian flag on the other and will continue to do so even after the UK has left the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.indy100.com/article/bre...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1553944699


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

I know many who innocently voted for Brexit would be disgusted with these scenes.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1375378852604630&id=734568236685698









And, where were the Socialist Labour Party who are also endorsing a no deal Brexit at these demos?










That's the problem. Brexit is so divisive even far right rivals Farage and SY-L can't appear together let alone with Lexiters.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> I thought April 12th was significant in history.
> 
> Wonder if it was chosen deliberately or a pure coincidence?
> 
> View attachment 398781


As a correction, the Titanic set sail on April 12th, which was doomed to meet the iceberg on the 14/15th....


----------



## Arnie83

The Revoke A50 online petition has just ticked over the 6 million mark.

I know it doesn't make a real difference, and I absolutely don't think the Commons should do it without a direct instruction from the people, but it is a reminder that if they really are looking to "bring the country together" then a No Deal Brexit is exactly the wrong way to do it.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> The Revoke A50 online petition has just ticked over the 6 million mark.
> 
> I know it doesn't make a real difference, and I absolutely don't think the Commons should do it without a direct instruction from the people, but it is a reminder that if they really are looking to "bring the country together" then a No Deal Brexit is exactly the wrong way to do it.


Some Tory suggested the launch of a new 'Royal' ship will bring the UK back together. The forthcoming new "Royal" baby will too of course.

Jesus...


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Some Tory suggested the launch of a new 'Royal' ship will bring the UK back together. The forthcoming new "Royal" baby will too of course.
> 
> Jesus...


I always thought the tories had lost the plot, this just proves it.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Some Tory suggested the launch of a new 'Royal' ship will bring the UK back together. The forthcoming new "Royal" baby will too of course.
> 
> Jesus...


They're calling the new royal baby "Jesus" ?

:Wideyed


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> They're calling the new royal baby "Jesus" ?
> 
> :Wideyed


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> They're calling the new royal baby "Jesus" ?
> 
> :Wideyed


:Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And, where were the Socialist Labour Party who are also endorsing a no deal Brexit at these demos?


As there is only 300 of them you wouldn't notice them in a crowd ...............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Labour_Party_(UK)


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> They're calling the new royal baby "Jesus" ?
> 
> :Wideyed


:Hilarious chortle ! Im hoping for James if its a boy .


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> As there is only 300 of them you wouldn't notice them in a crowd ...............
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Labour_Party_(UK)


They want Brexit as much as the most rampant Right-winger would, but their argument as to why differs.

I question the lack of pro-Brexit Lexit demos and why the likes of Kate Hoey, Ronnie Campbell, Len McCluskey and Geisha Stuart were absent on Friday, unless the usual media ignored them in favour of the right-wing cheerleaders Farage and SY-L they support so much.

Brexit or Lexit- not in my name.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> They want Brexit as much as the most rampant Right-winger would, but their argument as to why differs.
> 
> I question the lack of pro-Brexit Lexit demos and why the likes of Kate Hoey, Ronnie Campbell, Len McCluskey and Geisha Stuart were absent on Friday, unless the usual media ignored them in favour of the right-wing cheerleaders Farage and SY-L they support so much.
> 
> Brexit or Lexit- not in my name.


I don't even know what you are waffling about these days. Don't you get fed up of all this crap you read?

What the hell are you going to do with your life when it's all over?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I don't even know what you are waffling about these days. Don't you get fed up of all this crap you read?
> 
> What the hell are you going to do with your life when it's all over?


I hope KK will carry on... this country needs people who will speak up against racism. Xenophobia. 
Populism.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I don't even know what you are waffling about these days. Don't you get fed up of all this crap you read?
> 
> What the hell are you going to do with your life when it's all over?


It won't be over for me or millions of others like me.

It will only be over when we're firmly back in the EU.

Why do you think all I write is crap? I included the far left Lexiters as well as the far right and have defended Conservative party moderates.

What I was saying is quite simple really. Seeing the Socialist Labour Party, UKIP, Farage and Labour party members including Campbell and Hoey have a supposedly common cause to back a no deal Brexit where were they all on Friday?

Then Farage and SY-L on the extreme right wing detest each other.

Then, it's all about hatred isn't it. Giving them a hard Brexit won't unite them or shut them up, let alone the rest of the UK.

If you dislike my posts you do have the option to put me on ignore if you wish.

Kind regards, KK


----------



## Elles

Lol, there’s loads of racism and xenophobia on petforums, so they’ve come to right place to keep speaking up against it. I’m not 100% sure what populism is.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It won't be over for me or millions of others like me.
> 
> It will only be over when we're firmly back in the EU.
> 
> Why do you think all I write is crap? I included the far left Lexiters as well as the far right and have defended Conservative party moderates.
> 
> What I was saying is quite simple really. Seeing the Socialist Labour Party, UKIP, Farage and Labour party members including Campbell and Hoey have a supposedly common cause to back a no deal Brexit where were they all on Friday?
> 
> Then Farage and SY-L on the extreme right wing detest each other.
> 
> Then, it's all about hatred isn't it. Giving them a hard Brexit won't unite them or shut them up, let alone the rest of the UK.
> 
> If you dislike my posts you do have the option to put me on ignore if you wish.
> 
> Kind regards, KK


I understand your point . Its good to have a goal in life but dont forget to take time to smell the roses and enjoy the moment. I mean that kindly.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Why do you think all I write is crap?


I didn't say this.

What you write has some form of validity, what you post half the time hasn't


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> As someone who doesn't even recognise a blatant racist like Farage, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But jfyi, Westmonster is a well known far right propaganda platform which MM endorses as a 'highly reliable' source of facts. Its really concerning that swathes of ordinary decent people seem to be incapable of thinking critically even when something is so transparent as say Farage being a xenophobe or as the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, Westmonster being platforms for peddling lies & hate. Because people are getting their information from hateful right wing propagandists & outlets like the above we are seeing the rise of the far right again, not just here in the UK, also in the USA, Hungary.....right across the globe. We are living in VERY dangerous times indeed. LEST WE FORGET??
> 
> https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466
> 
> *WESTMONSTER - FASCIST FAKE NEWS*
> 
> It's not as if the Fake News offered by Westmonster is difficult to spot: stories of "Jihadists" in Germany (Breitbart knows all about sourcing its Fake News from there), claims of non-existent post-Brexit trade deals, smearing of those the Alt-Right (for which read the far right) don't like, propagandising for Nige and his pals, all are present.
> 
> And that logo looks vaguely fascist, with its W and M on a white background. All it needs now is a red background with a white circle in the centre and it will be a genuinely fascist one. Westmonster does no more than tread the same path as Breitbart - slavish adoration of Combover Crybaby Donald Trump, delusional promotion of Kippers, self-promotion (as if anyone cares), and selecting the bits of real news it approves of.
> Read more at:https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466


So you're saying every source of news is biased apart from the ones you like?? Sounds a little biased to me...


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> It won't be over for me or millions of others like me.
> 
> It will only be over when we're firmly back in the EU.
> 
> Why do you think all I write is crap? I included the far left Lexiters as well as the far right and have defended Conservative party moderates.
> 
> What I was saying is quite simple really. Seeing the Socialist Labour Party, UKIP, Farage and Labour party members including Campbell and Hoey have a supposedly common cause to back a no deal Brexit where were they all on Friday?
> 
> Then Farage and SY-L on the extreme right wing detest each other.
> 
> Then, it's all about hatred isn't it. Giving them a hard Brexit won't unite them or shut them up, let alone the rest of the UK.
> 
> If you dislike my posts you do have the option to put me on ignore if you wish.
> 
> Kind regards, KK


People would rather not have anyone on ignore so that a proper conversation can be had. I literally scan past most of your posts but the use of Hitler as comparisons and all sorts of other extremes is a little bit over the top.

Plus the endless posts aren't informative, they are irritating and repeating what has already been said, you aren't showing people something new. Also because you do 10 posts in a row no-one knows which point you want to talk about. Then if someone shows you a different point of view you call them the devil, or that the information is fake.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> People would rather not have anyone on ignore so that a proper conversation can be had. I literally scan past most of your posts but the use of Hitler as comparisons and all sorts of other extremes is a little bit over the top.
> 
> Plus the endless posts aren't informative, they are irritating and repeating what has already been said, you aren't showing people something new. Also because you do 10 posts in a row no-one knows which point you want to talk about. Then if someone shows you a different point of view you call them the devil, or that the information is fake.


Link to Friday's SY-L speech extract last Friday deleted.

Not my words:


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I didn't say this.
> 
> What you write has some form of validity, what you post half the time hasn't


Indeed. There's a huge difference between a well written post and posting generated crap especially when it swamps the thread.
You just switch off in the end.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you need to see this. Warning- bad language.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/161493768108559/permalink/274447726813162/?sfnsn=xmmo
> 
> Not my words:
> 
> View attachment 398934


Who does this relate to, what does this relate to, what is the context of the quote, who actually said this (i'm not clicking on a facebook link). How is this any sort of a reply to my post?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you need to see this. Warning- bad language.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/161493768108559/permalink/274447726813162/?sfnsn=xmmo
> 
> Not my words:
> 
> View attachment 398934


Not entirely sure what your point is....

That idiot on stage has clearly done some class A before he got up there though....
]


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Some Tory suggested the launch of a new 'Royal' ship will bring the UK back together. The forthcoming new "Royal" baby will too of course.


You are having a larf?? Is anyone interested in either?? I really cannot believe the people who dress in Union Jack flags (if I'm still allowed to call them that) and sit out in the rain waiting for them to come out with the new baby. And I thought the boat was ditched (scuppered??) because it cost too much.


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> They're calling the new royal baby "Jesus" ?


Hahaha; Mary Magdalene if it's a girl. Or maybe Beyonce.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Not entirely sure what your point is....
> 
> That idiot on stage has clearly done some class A before he got up there though....
> ]


Sadly the 'idiot' in question has built up quite a following lately, so much donations whilst in prison made him a millionaire for his hatred preaching.

Stephen Yaxley- Lennon is no idiot.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fends-promotion-of-german-far-right-afd-video


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Who thinks this? Did I miss something or is it the result of having a couple on ''ignore''? I have never noticed anything untoward in your posts.





noushka05 said:


> As someone who doesn't even recognise a blatant racist like Farage, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But jfyi, Westmonster is a well known far right propaganda platform which MM endorses as a 'highly reliable' source of facts. Its really concerning that swathes of ordinary decent people seem to be incapable of thinking critically even when something is so transparent as say Farage being a xenophobe or as the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, Westmonster being platforms for peddling lies & hate. Because people are getting their information from hateful right wing propagandists & outlets like the above we are seeing the rise of the far right again, not just here in the UK, also in the USA, Hungary.....right across the globe. We are living in VERY dangerous times indeed. LEST WE FORGET??
> 
> https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466
> 
> *WESTMONSTER - FASCIST FAKE NEWS*
> 
> It's not as if the Fake News offered by Westmonster is difficult to spot: stories of "Jihadists" in Germany (Breitbart knows all about sourcing its Fake News from there), claims of non-existent post-Brexit trade deals, smearing of those the Alt-Right (for which read the far right) don't like, propagandising for Nige and his pals, all are present.
> 
> And that logo looks vaguely fascist, with its W and M on a white background. All it needs now is a red background with a white circle in the centre and it will be a genuinely fascist one. Westmonster does no more than tread the same path as Breitbart - slavish adoration of Combover Crybaby Donald Trump, delusional promotion of Kippers, self-promotion (as if anyone cares), and selecting the bits of real news it approves of.
> Read more at:https://www.byline.com/column/20/article/1466


Now wasn't that kind of Noushka to reply on my behalf???

Pity she doesn't see fit to reply to me directly about the post you questioned.

Cowardice or doesn't like to admit she might be wrong?

Perhaps you'd prefer to hear my side of the story so you can make up your own mind.

If I remember correctly we were discussing trade and I happened to see an article stating that the UK and US had just sealed a post Brexit deal etc. The article which was in no way contentious, appeared in several newspapers but the only one I could find that wasn't behind a paywall was on the Westmonster website.

Before posting it on the forum I did a media bias check on Westmonster , who were said to be moderate right wing, well sourced with factual reporting Didn't take long before all hell let loose and I was told that I was promoting extreme right wing propaganda, which makes me an extreme right whatever ..... you name it ..... apparently I'm IT! Plus all this together with the typical long winded hysterical lecture like the one above!

I then posted the report I'd consulted from Media Bias to prove there was nothing extreme about the website.

She then replies with great glee that in the meantime she had contacted Media Bias and got them to alter their report on Westmonster to read as a fascist publication with ties to organisations bent on bringing the downfall of the world. When I looked again the report had been changed to this ......

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/

Home » WestMonster

*WestMonster*

_*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*

Share:
FacebookTwittergoogle_plusPinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare0
*







RIGHT BIAS*
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.


*Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*

Since then she's taken every opportunity to brand me something I am not and never was. And now having replied to her comment ...



noushka05 said:


> Says the one who endorses a platform for far right propaganda


She hasn't had the guts to reply to my face apart from trying to justify herself to Calvine which says far more about her than me!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fends-promotion-of-german-far-right-afd-video
> 
> View attachment 398946


You mean this one?


----------



## Elles

Nice speech. A lot of people will agree with her.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Nice speech. A lot of people will agree with her.


I thought so too A lot of truth in what she said.

(I think we'd both better don our tin hats and retreat to our bunkers and wait for the flack)!:Angelic:Angelic:Angelic


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum Sensible speech

I guess Remainers will call her a witch and suggest burning her at the stake .


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum Sensible speech
> 
> I guess Remainers will call her a witch and suggest burning her at the stake .


Now, why would you think we would wish her to be burned at the stake?

It is after all that many Brexiters are calling for who they call, "Enemies of the People" to be hung for 'treason' for not backing Brexit.

I'm sure many members of the AfD believe that too.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> trying to justify herself to Calvine


 As I have her on ''ignore'' I was not aware she had tried to do anything.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I guess Remainers will call her a witch and suggest burning her at the stake


 . . . or duck her into a pond with one of those dogs and then a) if she drowns we shall know she was innocent (very doubtful) and b) if she lives then we can burn her anyway, along with any surviving dogs, at the stake. This forum is starting to get exciting!


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> . . . or duck her into a pond with one of those dogs and then a) if she drowns we shall know she was innocent (very doubtful) and b) if she lives then we can burn her anyway, along with any surviving dogs, at the stake. This forum is starting to get exciting!


 not the dogs!


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Now wasn't that kind of Noushka to reply on my behalf???
> 
> Pity she doesn't see fit to reply to me directly about the post you questioned.
> 
> Cowardice or doesn't like to admit she might be wrong?
> 
> Perhaps you'd prefer to hear my side of the story so you can make up your own mind.
> 
> If I remember correctly we were discussing trade and I happened to see an article stating that the UK and US had just sealed a post Brexit deal etc. The article which was in no way contentious, appeared in several newspapers but the only one I could find that wasn't behind a paywall was on the Westmonster website.
> 
> Before posting it on the forum I did a media bias check on Westmonster , who were said to be moderate right wing, well sourced with factual reporting Didn't take long before all hell let loose and I was told that I was promoting extreme right wing propaganda, which makes me an extreme right whatever ..... you name it ..... apparently I'm IT! Plus all this together with the typical long winded hysterical lecture like the one above!
> 
> I then posted the report I'd consulted from Media Bias to prove there was nothing extreme about the website.
> 
> She then replies with great glee that in the meantime she had contacted Media Bias and got them to alter their report on Westmonster to read as a fascist publication with ties to organisations bent on bringing the downfall of the world. When I looked again the report had been changed to this ......
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> _*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> Share:
> FacebookTwittergoogle_plusPinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare0
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT BIAS*
> These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.
> 
> 
> *Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
> 
> Since then she's taken every opportunity to brand me something I am not and never was. And now having replied to her comment ...
> 
> She hasn't had the guts to reply to my face apart from trying to justify herself to Calvine which says far more about her than me!


Cowardice? :Hilarious Yes she does have the guts. She pulled you up on it & provided evidence for you look at. And STILL you argued against it. Westmonsters agenda is blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively. You have the nerve to accuse KK of being a closet racist when nothing could be further from the truth.



noushka05 said:


> Westmonster?
> 
> *Westmonster - Fascist Fake News*
> 
> As if the right-leaning part of the Web, that part of the political spectrum from centre-right through to partisan cheerleading to downright fake news and on to the ranting and paranoid conspiracy mongers, were not already full enough with sources claiming to be offering information, but instead providing nothing more that a variety of propagandising, yesterday brought yet another site vying for its place in the sun.
> 
> The new entrant is called _Westmonster_, and is bankrolled by Arron Banks, dodgy salesman of no discernible principle and provider of serious amounts of money to UKIP, especially when the party was being used as a self-publicity vehicle by Nigel "_Thirsty_" Farage. Banks is clearly unhappy with all those websites serving up information in a way that shows the Kippers in a less than favourable light.
> 
> That, of course, may be not unconnected to the inconvenient fact that many in UKIP are bigoted, racist, misogynist, intolerant and serially dishonest, this last certainly being true of Farage, as *Zelo Street*regulars will know. And the Kippers already have the convocation of the terminally batshit otherwise known as Breitbart to shill for them. But for Banks this is not enough: he wants his own hands on the throat of editorial control.
> 
> http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2017/01/westmonster-fascist-fake-news.html





Magyarmum said:


> Now why did I expect a reply like that!
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> _*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> *These media sources are slightly to moderately conservative in bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor conservative causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Right-Center sources.*
> 
> *Factual Reporting: HIGH*
> 
> *Notes: WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes pro-Brexit news. There is little use of loaded language and all information is sourced. We classify WestMonster as right-center biased based on support for Brexit and endorsement of the right wing Tory political party. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017)*
> 
> *Source: http://www.westmonster.com/*





noushka05 said:


> Its perfectly obvious to anyone with their eyes open Westmonster is a nasty hate peddling propaganda site.
> 
> From your own link >> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/westmonster/
> 
> 
> *Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
> *Detailed Report*
> Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
> Country: *United Kingdom*
> World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*
> 
> _*History*_
> 
> _Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor._
> 
> _Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.
> 
> Home » WestMonster
> 
> *WestMonster*
> 
> *Has this Media Source failed a fact check?* *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> Share:
> FacebookTwitterGoogle+PinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare0
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT BIAS*
> These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> *Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks.*
> _
> _*Detailed Report*
> Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
> Country: *United Kingdom*
> World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*
> 
> *History*
> 
> Founded in 2017 by Arron Banks, WestMonster is a London, England based website that promotes "pro-Brexit, pro-Farage, pro-Trump, anti-establishment, anti-open borders, anti-corporatism news." Michael Heaver is the current editor.
> 
> Some media outlets have compared WestMonster to Breitbart and the Drudge Report, which we have rated as Questionable due to many failed fact checks.
> 
> *Funded by / Ownership*
> 
> Westmonster is co-owned by Arron Banks and Michael Heaver, former press adviser to Nigel Farage. Banks was previously one of the largest donors to the conservative UK Independence Party (UKIP) and bankrolled Nigel Farage's campaign to leave the EU. The website is funded through donations and online advertising.
> 
> *Analysis / Bias*
> 
> In review, *WestMonster is a strongly right learning news website that favors Brexit and has connections to both the Conservative Party and the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Articles typically contain loaded emotional headlines such as this: Jailed Peterborough MP 'could leave prison today under early release scheme'. This article sources to the Questionable Daily Mail, which has a terrible track record with fact checking and sensationalism. WestMonster holds anti-immigration positions as well as anti-EU sentiments. WestMonster also holds a favorable opinion of Donald Trump. In general, all stories favor the right and denigrate the Labor Party (Left). Although they primarily link to credible known sources, they sometimes use sources that are strongly right biased or Questionable.*
> 
> A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check by an IFCN Fact Checker.
> 
> Overall, we rate WestMonster Right Biased based on support for conservatives and the* promotion of propaganda that supports right leaning causes*. We also rate them *Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources that have failed fact checks*. (D. Van Zandt 8/1/2017) Updated (2/26/2019)
> 
> Source: http://www.westmonster.com/
> 
> _
> 
> Helloooo


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You mean this one?


Hmm. I get the impression that even the reasonable words hide a rather more unpalatable agenda. But of the ones she did use ...

Cameron's main request was for an end to freedom of movement, which this lady probably forgot to mention, though a cynic might conclude that she only included the demands that were easier to grant in an organisation based on the 4 freedoms.

And her "quote" from Barnier would be more convincing if it wasn't hearsay.

Certainly interesting, though, to see that Rees-Mogg approves of a speech which lays out quite clearly the economic damage that Brexit will do, while simultaneously claiming that the UK will be vastly better off.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> So you're saying every source of news is biased apart from the ones you like?? Sounds a little biased to me...


No I'm saying the right wing gutter press & far right propaganda platforms like Westmonster peddle hate & lies . i am biased, I'm biased to the left. My priorities are environmental & social justice,. @Magyarmum provided this media bias fact checking site. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/ Its a very good tool, I recommend it.


----------



## Elles

Did Rees-Mogg say he agreed with it all? As you know, I don’t agree with freedom of movement as it is and what it actually means either. People call it the 4 freedoms as though it’s something related to Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, or Ghandi. It’s a nice word. Freedom. And none of us would be against that, would we?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> No I'm saying the right wing gutter press & far right propaganda platforms like Westmonster peddle hate & lies . i am biased, I'm biased to the left. My priorities are environmental & social justice,. @Magyarmum provided this media bias fact checking site. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/ Its a very good tool, I recommend it.


I think we all would recommend it when looking for quotes etc. but @Magyarmum gave her reasons for not using a more established source.
Do you not think there is potential for left wing gutter press and far left propaganda platforms exist? ie facebook, twitter etc.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Did Rees-Mogg say he agreed with it all? As you know, I don't agree with freedom of movement as it is and what it actually means either. People call it the 4 freedoms as though it's something related to Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, or Ghandi. It's a nice word. Freedom. And none of us would be against that, would we?


I'm not all that active on social media, but I think retweeting something without criticism of it is generally seen as an endorsement.


----------



## Arnie83

Last week May promises to "engage constructively" with the process of indicative votes.

Today she instructs her Cabinet to boycott the votes.

Democracy. Sovereign Parliament. Laughing stock.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Last week May promises to "engage constructively" with the process of indicative votes.
> 
> Today she instructs her Cabinet to boycott the votes.
> 
> Democracy. Sovereign Parliament. Laughing stock.


It is ridiculous, as has been said before by many people, her hypocrisy and game-playing is so childish it's almost laughable


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I think we all would recommend it when looking for quotes etc. but @Magyarmum gave her reasons for not using a more established source.


The point I was making was she argued it WAS a reliable source - a Highly reliable source. It is far from it & sites which are used to whip up hate & prejudice need calling out! Thia is why we're in the mess we're in now, because millions of people have been duped into believing immigrants/ refugees/ the EU! are the reason eveything is in crisis when it 10 years of crippling tory austerity!



AlexPed2393 said:


> Do you not think there is potential for left wing gutter press and far left propaganda platforms exist? ie facebook, twitter etc.


I'm sure there is, which is why the media bias fact checker site is a very handy tool  Personally, I'm only interested in reliable sources for my information. Are you suggesting that facebook & twitter are just platforms for left wing propaganda? lol Have you heard of Cambridge Analytica bu any chance?


----------



## Jesthar

noushka05 said:


> Cowardice? :Hilarious Yes she does have the guts. She pulled you up on it & provided evidence for you look at. And STILL you argued against it. Westmonsters agenda is blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively. You have the nerve to accuse KK of being a closet racist when nothing could be further from the truth.





noushka05 said:


> No I'm saying the right wing gutter press & far right propaganda platforms like Westmonster peddle hate & lies . i am biased, I'm biased to the left. My priorities are environmental & social justice,. @Magyarmum provided this media bias fact checking site. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/ Its a very good tool, I recommend it.


*sigh* I do not consider it wise to get involved in personal arguments, so I will say this once and only once, noush.

I remember the incident you keep referring to. Magyarmum has explained why she picked that source at the time, and also confirmed she checked out that source _before _she posted, using the tool you just recommend as being very good, no less. That this very good tool was, at that point in time, not providing an accurate anaylsis of the source in question is not her fault. And preferring to continue to take the word of that very good tool regarding the source in question over the word of a random person on the internet is, generally speaking, a more logical course of action.

Given that the very good tool has since changed their analysis of the source in question since attention was drawn to its inaccuracy, you could even say that the incident has been beneficial, eh?

Either way, to keep dragging what appears to have been a single genuine (and understandable) error up as definitive evidence of extreme political bias is not a debating tactic that inspires confidence in the validity of your own viewpoint, especially when the poster in question has show a distinct preference (and, indeed, talent) for rational, fact based debate on what has at times been a very contentious and divisive topic.

And here endeth the observation.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Cowardice? :Hilarious Yes she does have the guts. She pulled you up on it & provided evidence for you look at. And STILL you argued against it. Westmonsters agenda is blatantly obvious to anyone looking objectively. You have the nerve to accuse KK of being a closet racist when nothing could be further from the truth.


What you fail to mention is that when for example, you alter your signature it updates the signature to your newest one on every reply you've ever made on every thread on the forum. The same applies to websites like Media Bias which is why the information on my post is identical to the one on yours. Simples!

As for KK if he wishes NOT to give people the impression he's a racist then perhaps he should modify the "hate speech" he spouts with references to Nazis, Mgabe, Idi Amin and countries like North Korea, because at the moment he's doing a b*****y good job of persuading people otherwise.

One of his questionable remarks was about a photo of a street party (FB naturally) when he noted it was an image of an "all white Britain" which prompted my comment,

Yesterday Jon Snow was pulled up over making the same remark during the pro Brexit Rally, so maybe I'm not too far out of line after all!

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...uring-report-on-probrexit-rally-a4105051.html

*Jon Snow says 'I've never seen so many white people in one place' during report on pro-Brexit rally*


----------



## Elles

Ironically the fact checker wasn’t very accurate in its fact finding.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> Last week May promises to "engage constructively" with the process of indicative votes.
> 
> Today she instructs her Cabinet to boycott the votes.
> 
> Democracy. Sovereign Parliament. Laughing stock.


Perhaps her definition of "engage constructively" is more along the lines of "take the phone off the hook when confronted by actual evidence which might upset my imaginary world..."


----------



## noushka05

Jesthar said:


> *sigh* I do not consider it wise to get involved in personal arguments, so I will say this once and only once, noush.
> 
> I remember the incident you keep referring to. Magyarmum has explained why she picked that source at the time, and also confirmed she checked out that source _before _she posted, using the tool you just recommend as being very good, no less. That this very good tool was, at that point in time, not providing an accurate anaylsis of the source in question is not her fault. And preferring to continue to take the word of that very good tool regarding the source in question over the word of a random person on the internet is, generally speaking, a more logical course of action.
> 
> Given that the very good tool has since changed their analysis of the source in question since attention was drawn to its inaccuracy, you could even say that the incident has been beneficial, eh?
> 
> Either way, to keep dragging what appears to have been a single genuine (and understandable) error up as definitive evidence of extreme political bias is not a debating tactic that inspires confidence in the validity of your own viewpoint, especially when the poster in question has show a distinct preference (and, indeed, talent) for rational, fact based debate on what has at times been a very contentious and divisive topic.
> 
> And here endeth the observation.


I always value your opinion Jesthar, so will take what you say on board. I believe I did thank MM for drawing my attention to the media bias site so I could ask them to review Westmonster. It really should be plain to everyone what kind of site Westmonster is . I disagree with your last sentence however. MM has often referenced the likes John Redwood etc, and right wing libertarian sites to support their opinion. These are not good sources at all.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> What you fail to mention is that when for example, you alter your signature it updates the signature to your newest one on every reply you've ever made on every thread on the forum. The same applies to websites like Media Bias which is why the information on my post is identical to the one on yours. Simples!
> 
> As for KK if he wishes NOT to give people the impression he's a racist then perhaps he should modify the "hate speech" he spouts with references to Nazis, Mgabe, Idi Amin and countries like North Korea, because at the moment he's doing a b*****y good job of persuading people otherwise.
> 
> One of his questionable remarks was about a photo of a street party (FB naturally) when he noted it was an image of an "all white Britain" which prompted my comment,
> 
> Yesterday Jon Snow was pulled up over making the same remark during the pro Brexit Rally, so maybe I'm not too far out of line after all!
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...uring-report-on-probrexit-rally-a4105051.html
> 
> *Jon Snow says 'I've never seen so many white people in one place' during report on pro-Brexit rally*


The leave vote was a vote for right wing populism & nationalism, so naturally the demographic will be largely white. Nothing racist in stating facts. Jon Snow should not have been forced to apologise. And one of the reasons KK hates brexit is because of the rise in hate crimes. I'm sure deep down you know that really. Brexit has emboldened the racists, exactly as (if memory serves me right) KK predicted it would.



Elles said:


> Ironically the fact checker wasn't very accurate in its fact finding.


It was totally inaccurate about Westmonster. Possibly because its an American site & Westmonster was only recently set up by Arron banks to peddle lies about the EU & refugees. It took them minutes to re-evaluate once they'd had a closer look. Its a very good site.


----------



## noushka05

Bang on.

*Darren McCaffrey*‏ @DarrenEuronews

German's Deputy Foreign Minister:

_"Brexit is a big shitshow, I say that now very undiplomatically" _

_"90%" cabinet "no idea how workers think, live, work and behave" _

Politicians_ "born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools_" that will not suffer.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Are you suggesting that facebook & twitter are just platforms for left wing propaganda? lol Have you heard of Cambridge Analytica bu any chance?


The members of staff, the cultures within the company of facebook and twitter are leaning very strongly to the left. That may not mean all users lean that way, in fact people who use the platforms form extremes on either side.

Because of the areas in which facebook and twitter are based you will get a huge left wing bias in reporting, what is promoted, which users are blocked out etc etc. There was a podcast recently where workers at Twitter were interviewed and asked questions as to why one set of rules were applied to some (right wing biased) and not others (left wing biased) and they didn't really have a reply to it. It was from the Joe Rogan Experience, he actually did two and te second one was much more informative.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> The members of staff, the cultures within the company of facebook and twitter are leaning very strongly to the left. That may not mean all users lean that way, in fact people who use the platforms form extremes on either side.
> 
> Because of the areas in which facebook and twitter are based you will get a huge left wing bias in reporting, what is promoted, which users are blocked out etc etc. There was a podcast recently where workers at Twitter were interviewed and asked questions as to why one set of rules were applied to some (right wing biased) and not others (left wing biased) and they didn't really have a reply to it. It was from the Joe Rogan Experience, he actually did two and te second one was much more informative.


You didn't answer my question about Cambridge Analytica?

I dont use facebook but twitter is a great source for finding facts. It has many leading environmentalists on there. Green NGOs. Politicians. Charities. Trusted public figures. It also has liar & hate mongers like Farage, Rees Mogg & the rest of the right wing extremists, so you can always check out the latest garbage they are spewing.

I've just found the wikipedia page for Joe Rogan & he describes himself as a libertarian.... Well what a surprise!. He wouldn't biased at all, now would he?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> What you fail to mention is that when for example, you alter your signature it updates the signature to your newest one on every reply you've ever made on every thread on the forum. The same applies to websites like Media Bias which is why the information on my post is identical to the one on yours. Simples!
> 
> As for KK if he wishes NOT to give people the impression he's a racist then perhaps he should modify the "hate speech" he spouts with references to Nazis, Mgabe, Idi Amin and countries like North Korea, because at the moment he's doing a b*****y good job of persuading people otherwise.
> 
> One of his questionable remarks was about a photo of a street party (FB naturally) when he noted it was an image of an "all white Britain" which prompted my comment,
> 
> Yesterday Jon Snow was pulled up over making the same remark during the pro Brexit Rally, so maybe I'm not too far out of line after all!
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...uring-report-on-probrexit-rally-a4105051.html
> 
> *Jon Snow says 'I've never seen so many white people in one place' during report on pro-Brexit rally*


I can take criticism, but I won't stand for personal abuse.

I have mentioned this to you before yet you continue to slander.

I am reporting this post.


----------



## noushka05

And here is the latest garbage from one duplicitous liar. First Farage now Mogg courting fascists.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I can take criticism, but I won't stand for personal abuse.
> 
> I have mentioned this to you before yet you continue to slander.
> 
> I am reporting this post.


Don't hold your breath....

Why should you think that anti Muslim, anti EU workers or ethnic minorities have anything with KKK or xenophobia?

Rise in hate crimes is purely coincidental of course and it is not as if British ever invaded or exploited other countries and felt it was fair...

I wish to know how those entitled and privileged came to their fortunes looking a bit back...

It was " then".... but the sense of superiority and entitlement stays all the same...

Can I remind you that in EU Britain had means to control EU immigration, May was Home Secretary... and you know what?

She failed.

So Tories put her as PM... 
Guess what?

She failed.

Why did they put here there?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I can take criticism, but I won't stand for personal abuse.
> 
> I have mentioned this to you before yet you continue to slander.
> 
> I am reporting this post.



Yet you're happy to dish it out !


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Don't hold your breath....


He's just wasting the Mods time.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> He's just wasting the Mods time.


I can't support personal attacks, sadly this happens then people run out of arguments...


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> The leave vote was a vote for right wing populism & nationalism, so naturally the demographic will be largely white. Nothing racist in stating facts. Jon Snow should not have been forced to apologise. And one of the reasons KK hates brexit is because of the rise in hate crimes. I'm sure deep down you know that really. Brexit has emboldened the racists, exactly as (if memory serves me right) KK predicted it would.
> 
> I wasn't just talking about Jon Snow. Having lived in a racist country the one thing I do know from personal experience is that you don't fight racism by fueling it with hate speech which is what KK does. I've been in situations where had I retaliated by using the same derogatory language that was being used towards me I'd have ended up with a machete between the eyes or a bullet in the back!
> 
> *It was totally inaccurate about Westmonster.* Possibly because its an American site & Westmonster was only recently set up by Arron banks to peddle lies about the EU & refugees*. It took them minutes to re-evaluate once they'd had a closer look. Its a very good site*.


So we're finally getting to the truth namely that when I checked Westmonster on the Media Bias website I was given inaccurate information which led me to believe that Westmonster was a reliable source of information. As a result instead of accepting that through no fault of my own I'd been misinformed on what in any case wasn't a contentious article, you chose to accuse me of something of which I'm not guilty.

And the only time I've ever mentioned John Redwood was at Christmas to post a skit about "Jack and the Beanstalk" which I'd found funny. Apart from that the only thing I know about the man is that he's the MP for Wokingham which was where my sons were born.

I won't waste any more of my time as quite frankly it's pointless even trying to discuss anything with you, because you've already made up your mind about me.

Don't forget though - YOU only THINK you know me whereas I KNOW I know me


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Don't forget though - YOU only THINK you know me whereas I KNOW I know me


Don't be silly, you are obviously being misguided about yourself by yourself


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I can't support personal attacks, sadly this happens then people run out of arguments...


oh I see , so that's why KK accused SWC of being racist and accused me of being racist to cats of all things .

ETA I guess this will end in a locked thread.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> oh I see , so that's why KK accused SWC of being racist and accused me of being racist to cats of all things .
> 
> ETA I guess this will end in a locked thread.


Now, this is getting silly. I asked you that as a question, I did not actually accuse you of being a racist.

Nevertheless, I will apologise if any misunderstanding or offence was caused.

You are wrong about me calling SWC a racist though. I have never individually accused anyone by saying, "I believe s/he is a" or, "You're a racist", which I have been accused of being twice.

I see the personal attack against myself is a distraction as arguments have run out so they resort to this sort of thing.

A shame, as it was an interesting debate.

In the possible resultant closure of this thread I am pleased to find myself still officially considered a citizen of Europe which I didn't expect!


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Don't be silly, you are obviously being misguided about yourself by yourself


Ah I know I'm just a crazy mixed up geriatric ..... I think?????

Anyway i'm off now to shove all those skeletons, that I don't want anyone to find, back into the closet!


----------



## SusieRainbow

When these arguments turn personal someone will hit the report button and complain.
I don't follow the Brexit threads, as far as I can see they have no place on a Pet Forum - unless directly discussing the impact it will have on our pets, but I'm not seeing that?
So please either remain civil to each other or it *will *be closed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

SusieRainbow said:


> When these arguments turn personal someone will hit the report button and complain.
> I don't follow the Brexit threads, as far as I can see they have no place on a Pet Forum - unless directly discussing the impact it will have on our pets, but I'm not seeing that?
> So please either remain civil to each other or it *will *be closed.


It will have impact on my pets, if they cannot get to their trusty vet, as vet here recently poisoned my cat, who will never recover fully from damage to his pancreas, I am now stock piling his meds and their special diet food plus filter refills for fish.
A friend of mine goes back to UK in two months, lives in Spain, worried about her dog's passport, older dog, not good for quarantine.

My dog goes for long walks in Spain, as it is impossible in Gibraltar.
My dog charity Animals in Need is in Spain, dog walker volunteers come from Gibraltar, donations too... it is registered in Gibraltar...
Problem with taxes too and accounts as well as charity status. 
700 hundred dogs. Many of them going to Germany or Finland (bull breads mostly).
So Brexit has a lot to do with it.
Also we might expect a growing number in animals abandoned by expats going back..
This is a growing trend I am afraid and those dogs are often older and absolutely lost in overcrowded shelters.

My cat charity has now a growing number of adult cats , definitely pets left on the street...
Owners moving back from Spain cannot find rentals accepting pets.. or had to move with someone who doesn't like or can have animals.
Obviously not all is Brexit but there is the frontier effect...


----------



## Happy Paws2

For goodness sake this really a pet forum, I'm starting to feel shamed at the way some people are acting on here.


----------



## kimthecat

So, more indictive votes soon !

ETA Result in half and hour


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> So, more indictive votes soon !


results about 10pm


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> results about 10pm


Sorry, I thought it said half an hour .

ETA BBC parliament channel says they are voting now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Sorry, I thought it said half an hour .


Sorry if you did, but I've not long logged in and not read all the lastest posts


----------



## KittenKong

SusieRainbow said:


> When these arguments turn personal someone will hit the report button and complain.
> I don't follow the Brexit threads, as far as I can see they have no place on a Pet Forum - unless directly discussing the impact it will have on our pets, but I'm not seeing that?
> So please either remain civil to each other or it *will *be closed.


When it comes to issues such as EU pet passports it certainly is relevant to a pet forum. To this day no one knows the likely outcome or long term one in the case of a limited transition period through the appalling incompetence by this government.


----------



## kimthecat

A bit OT
a naked protest by climate activists on the House of Commons today. They kept their pants on though .


----------



## SusieRainbow

This thread has reached nearly 600 pages and only now are we talking about the impact on our pets !
Thus reinforcing my belief that this debate is does not really belong on a Pet Forum.
I'm not by any means under-estimating the importance of this issue ,just saying that our moderation time is better spent on moderating directly pet-related issues.
No more from me unless the report button is re-activated.


----------



## Elles

I hope they were cotton pants.


----------



## Elles

SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has reached nearly 600 pages and only now are we talking about the impact on our pets !
> Thus reinforcing my belief that this debate is does not really belong on a Pet Forum.
> I'm not by any means under-estimating the importance of this issue ,just saying that our moderation time is better spent on moderating directly pet-related issues.
> No more from me unless the report button is re-activated.


Cheeky has often talked about the problem with her pets and rescue and we've talked about possible problems with pet passports and holidays. Magyarmum's pets have Hungarian passports.


----------



## kimthecat

@happypaws
Now its saying Full coverage at 10 pm . 

Im off to watch Corrie now ,


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Cheeky has often talked about the problem with her pets and rescue and we've talked about possible problems with pet passports and holidays. Magyarmum's pets have Hungarian passports.


Yes , that.s true . its been discussed quite a bit.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Well , as I said I haven't followed it closely.
My point is that sorting out personal squabbles in this thread is not the best use of moderation.


----------



## Happy Paws2

SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has reached nearly 600 pages and* only now are we talking about the impact on our pets !*
> Thus reinforcing my belief that this debate is does not really belong on a Pet Forum.
> I'm not by any means under-estimating the importance of this issue ,just saying that our moderation time is better spent on moderating directly pet-related issues.
> No more from me unless the report button is re-activated.


I think you'll find it was mention sometime ago.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> You mean this one?





Elles said:


> Nice speech. A lot of people will agree with her.





Magyarmum said:


> I thought so too A lot of truth in what she said.
> 
> (I think we'd both better don our tin hats and retreat to our bunkers and wait for the flack)!:Angelic:Angelic:Angelic





kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum Sensible speech
> 
> I guess Remainers will call her a witch and suggest burning her at the stake .


Perhaps you need to know a bit more about the AfD before showering them with praise.































https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...fugees-says-german-party-leader-a6844611.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Cheeky has often talked about the problem with her pets and rescue and we've talked about possible problems with pet passports and holidays. Magyarmum's pets have Hungarian passports.


Very real problem in Gibraltar, especially for bigger dogs!!!
Here my Spanish dog in Spain...

Our charity... our dogs...we bring them, those that are happy with people around to events in Gibraltar...
Yes, I mentioned it many times...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Back to May Deal ...

I despair with Ken Clarke...


Looks like it will all implode...
Even opposition cannot pull together!!!!

Tories want a No Deal and God help us!


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## cheekyscrip

Tories will rather see the country go to hell on No Deal than compromise.

Total shame. 

People don’t want No Deal, they did not vote for No Deal, business, neither Rotten Deal.


----------



## kimthecat

Looks like the Nays have won but very close.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47781009


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Nays have won but very close.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47781009


Thank you, Green could have made the difference too.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Hmm. I get the impression that even the reasonable words hide a rather more unpalatable agenda. But of the ones she did use ...
> 
> Cameron's main request was for an end to freedom of movement, which this lady probably forgot to mention, though a cynic might conclude that she only included the demands that were easier to grant in an organisation based on the 4 freedoms.
> 
> And her "quote" from Barnier would be more convincing if it wasn't hearsay.
> 
> Certainly interesting, though, to see that Rees-Mogg approves of a speech which lays out quite clearly the economic damage that Brexit will do, while simultaneously claiming that the UK will be vastly better off.


I expect she does have an agenda and you're right to be cynical but except for the above points , you've not really said much . Does that mean you agree with the rest of it , eg about the effect om Germany and loss of blocking votes and the need to reform ?

She did say that Barnier was supposed to have said that quote , I couldn't find any reference to it though I think it was mentioned in the papers at the time . Did Barnier deny saying it ? I hope he didnt . ETA say it.

I wonder how different it would be if some of Camerons requests had been granted .


----------



## KittenKong

Well, we can now expect May to go for her MV4 then lose that seeing some who voted for her MV3 regret voting for it seemingly due to backtracking on her 'promise' to resign which she appears to have withdrawn. Surprise surprise.

Time for Brussels to act to temporarily impose a Euro administration, (I go as far as to say direct rule from Brussels, then I would do).

This Tory government has completely broken down with not much of an opposition either.

That's the problem with these various forms of Brexit from the May deal to Corbyn's "Jobs First" one.

About time they scrapped their pure fantasies that, in each case are far worse for the economy, jobs and living standards than the status quo.

Put it to the people with two options: Revoke Article 50 or Crash out with No deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well, we can now expect May to go for her MV4 then lose that seeing some who voted for her MV3 regret voting for it seemingly due to backtracking on her 'promise' to resign which she appears to have withdrawn. Surprise surprise.
> 
> Time for Brussels to act to temporarily impose a Euro administration, (I go as far as to say direct rule from Brussels, then I would do).
> 
> This Tory government has completely broken down with not much of an opposition either.
> 
> That's the problem with these various forms of Brexit from the May deal to Corbyn's "Jobs First" one.
> 
> About time they scrapped their pure fantasies that, in each case are far worse for the economy, jobs and living standards than the status quo.
> 
> Put it to the people with two options: Revoke Article 50 or Crash out with No deal.


Put to the vote: May Deal or Remain.

Only fair: it is a rotten deal, but real.
No Brexit is Brexit .
If people want it... then up to them.
At least they know bit better what they are voting for.

As to No Deal ... people have no more idea about WTO rules than Brexit is Brexit.

Ken Clarke : well said. Pity they didn't listen.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> So we're finally getting to the truth namely that when I checked Westmonster on the Media Bias website I was given inaccurate information which led me to believe that Westmonster was a reliable source of information. As a result instead of accepting that through no fault of my own I'd been misinformed on what in any case wasn't a contentious article, you chose to accuse me of something of which I'm not guilty.
> 
> And the only time I've ever mentioned John Redwood was at Christmas to post a skit about "Jack and the Beanstalk" which I'd found funny. Apart from that the only thing I know about the man is that he's the MP for Wokingham which was where my sons were born.
> 
> I won't waste any more of my time as quite frankly it's pointless even trying to discuss anything with you, because you've already made up your mind about me.
> 
> Don't forget though - YOU only THINK you know me whereas I KNOW I know me


I told you it was an unreliable source and provided you with information so I was shocked that you doubled down. I could not understand how anyone could use Westmonster as a source of reference in the first place as its so obvious that its a platform for peddling hate. But clearly some people are duped by these horrible sites, so I accept that you were one such person. All I accused you of is promoting the site, when I showed you the media bias updated review, you didn't say anything then about being misinformed. You are only saying that now, and I do appreciate that . These sites need to be exposed for what they are MM, they are dangerous.

(I don't think I know you at all. One can only judge on what people post on here )

Humour is subjective I suppose, but John Redwood, Daniel Hannan (mogg, farage, fox ...) - they have the same ugly agenda, they believe in the same extreme ideology & they are deliberately manipulating the public to for their own gains.



Magyarmum said:


> An interesting article by Dan Hannan in the Washington Examiner which you might like to read
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dan-hannan-a-us-uk-deal-will-revolutionize-world-trade


Throughout this thread, you have used unreliable extreme right wing sources, frequently shady right wing think tanks pushing their agenda of deregulated uncontrolled industry & tax cuts for the rich. (This is why these greedy libertarians really hate the EU because of the legislation which protects us & our environment, it hinders their ability to make themselves even richer) .

Without trawling the whole thread here are a few examples to show you what I mean MM.



Magyarmum said:


> You really think it would be a million times better???????
> 
> https://fee.org/articles/greece-prostitution-and-the-sad-consequences-of-democratic-socialism/?utm_campaign=FEE Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=67090288&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-81m8sUvmZF4ncYRMDict9vbPS7heT9Lxv1yO80vnfyNDWhI6-B_BtjzZKOyuebPT34QyyQXCCne1exoNlBcMIg6ukB8Q&_hsmi=67090288





noushka05 said:


> I KNOW it would. Your reference is to a Koch brothers libertarian think tank, hardly a trustworthy source :Jawdrop Do you know who the Koch brothers are @Magyarmum ?
> 
> As you keep pointing out Greece has been hammered by austerity (a right wing doctrine  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry Cheeky, I've evolved skin like a rhino - and deep down I know Mille loves me really





Magyarmum said:


> Another pint of view from the Henry Jackson Society
> 
> https://brexitcentral.com/global-britain-brilliantly-placed-seize-opportunities-brexit/





noushka05 said:


> The Henry Jackson Society is a dodgy neoconservative extremist think tank. Its so worrying that people are misled into believing these toxic propaganda outlets are a reliable source of information.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...k-pulls-funds-commons-groups-disclosure-rules





Magyarmum said:


> https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-dont-punish-the-uk-because-of-brexit
> 
> *Viktor Orbán: Don't punish the UK because of Brexit*
> 
> Rather hypocritical of you considering Naomi Klein and Owen Jones whom you worship so much, not so long ago, were heaping praise on Chavez and Maduro , .... as were pathetic Jeremy and Diane Abbott amongst your other left winger pals?
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kirchick-venezuela-pundits-20170802-story.html
> 
> *Remember all those left-wing pundits who drooled over Venezuela?*
> 
> https://reaction.life/ten-times-corbynistas-praised-chavez-maduros-venezuela/
> 
> *Ten times Corbynistas praised Chavez and Maduro's Venezuela*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *





noushka05 said:


> Orban supported our leaving the EU. He's says don't punish us, because hes an ally of the tory extreme right - he's portraying the EU as the bad the bad guys when in reality we are punishing ourselves. Brexit is self inflicted so the consequences of leaving the SM/CU etc are all OUR fault.
> 
> James Kirchick is a war loving neocon, a racist & well known liar. Interesting that you think he has more credibility than Naomi Klien. You clearly haven't read any of her books, have you?
> 
> Anyway, I'll let Naomi respond to the Kirchick article
> 
> *Naomi Klein*‏ : the article you tweeted is full of crap. In my case it Ignores my extensive criticism of Venezuela's petro-populism
> 2. Instead it hinges on a 17-year-old petition written after a disgraceful US-backed coup attempt.
> 3. Yes, in Shock Doctrine I wrote that Chavez had moved away from IMF shock therapy and redistributed wealth. He did.
> 4. But I repeatedly warned against over reliance on heavy oil and warned against messianic politics. I spend my life doing it.
> 
> I notice he also attacks Bernie Sanders. And to rule out any doubt - this is exactly the way I feel. I'm not the one who finds it hard to condemn authoritarian regimes whatever side of the spectrum they're on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As hes your go to source - you might like this article by Kilchick?
> 
> *James Kirchick: Is Hungary becoming a rogue state in the center of Europe?*
> https://www.kyivpost.com/article/op...ng-a-rogue-state-in-the-center-of-europe.html
> 
> Its because they hoped for social justice for the people, obviously that hasnt turned out! And if they haven't already, I feel they should come out & strongly condemn Maduro like Bernie Sanders has done. To put the record straight again, I'm not a Corbynista, I'm a member of the Green Party. But I'm also a realist & cannot see the Greens getting into power anytime soon. The only hope we have is a pact with a labour government. But getting the tories out is priority as its the only hope of addressing the terrible social injustice they are getting away with. Stopping the badger cull. Saving our NHS. And the only hope we have of taking urgent action on climate change & environmental degradation. As you appear to be a climate denier, you won't understand the urgency those of us who accept the science feel about this.
> 
> Mehdi Hasan is one of my heros. Never afraid to hold power to account. This may ( though probably not) interest you? https://theintercept.com/2019/02/07/whos-really-afraid-of-socialism/
> 
> That is such a well thought out post. It isnt a coincidence that the worst people on the planet support brexit, is it?
> 
> And thank you for the reference to the link. Notice how neo nazi Steve Bannon's name crops up again & again. He is mastermind strategist, now advising Mogg, Johnson & co. '_Lest we forget'? _ Terrifyingly, its clear many people are forgetting. They have once again fallen for the scapegoating of minorites. nationalism, jingoism & the vacuous slogans.
> 
> _It's not for nothing that Steve Bannon, who has called Orbán "the most significant guy on the scene right now," is currently in Europe building an organization - called "the Movement" - aimed at spreading Orbán's populist politics across the continent._


----------



## noushka05

Ever the optimist, bless him.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> A bit OT
> a naked protest by climate activists on the House of Commons today. They kept their pants on though .


The climate emergency is what we should be giving our full attention to - not brexit. Like Trump, brexit is a disaster for the future of this planet.

On a lighter note, I love Ed Milibands reaction to the activists lol


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Nays have won but very close.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47781009


*Pippa Crerar*‏Verified account:

_Look at this chart. Tories say No. No. No. No. The failure to compromise ultimately lies at their door._

....................................................


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


Would anyone on here like to ague that a true democracy demands that the electorate are informed?

And that, therefore, this government is explicitly operating in an undemocratic manner by doing this?

"Corrupt UK", anyone?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You didn't answer my question about Cambridge Analytica?
> 
> I dont use facebook but twitter is a great source for finding facts. It has many leading environmentalists on there. Green NGOs. Politicians. Charities. Trusted public figures. It also has liar & hate mongers like Farage, Rees Mogg & the rest of the right wing extremists, so you can always check out the latest garbage they are spewing.
> 
> I've just found the wikipedia page for Joe Rogan & he describes himself as a libertarian.... Well what a surprise!. He wouldn't biased at all, now would he?


He admits he has bias on his podcast and he makes sure he has guests on from both sides of the argument like in the one I mentioned. It had Jack Dorsey


noushka05 said:


> You didn't answer my question about Cambridge Analytica?
> 
> I dont use facebook but twitter is a great source for finding facts. It has many leading environmentalists on there. Green NGOs. Politicians. Charities. Trusted public figures. It also has liar & hate mongers like Farage, Rees Mogg & the rest of the right wing extremists, so you can always check out the latest garbage they are spewing.
> 
> I've just found the wikipedia page for Joe Rogan & he describes himself as a libertarian.... Well what a surprise!. He wouldn't biased at all, now would he?


Ah you haven't listened to any of his podcasts, he knows he has a bias and is constantly questioning it and open to new ideas. In this particular one with twitter employees and some people that oppose how twitter utilises their policies he acts more of a mediator, a devils advocate of sorts for both sides of the argument.



  





3:25:11
Joe Rogan Experience #1258 - Jack Dorsey, Vijaya Gadde & Tim Pool. This is the one I am talking about. Very long, free on itunes. Could have been a hell of a lot longer


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Nays have won but very close.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47781009


They don't want anything do they? 

A little glimmer of hope in that last vote but I reckon that's only to cover their arses with the public


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> not the dogs!


 OK: but I'm sure they used to drown the cats too (if they were black).


----------



## Calvine

SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has reached nearly 600 pages and only now are we talking about the impact on our pets !
> Thus reinforcing my belief that this debate is does not really belong on a Pet Forum.
> I'm not by any means under-estimating the importance of this issue ,just saying that our moderation time is better spent on moderating directly pet-related issues.
> No more from me unless the report button is re-activated.


Must agree; and this, as you know, is not the first thread (so add all the previous ones to this and it's way more than 600 pages).


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, I mentioned it many times...


 It's been mentioned a few times by the same people. I think it's the constant infighting and bickering which @SusieRainbow is talking about; that she and the other mods (volunteers) have to plough thro' miles of repeats and piles of quotes and pictures, many from dubious sources. They simply don't have the time. One poster on this thread, someone I have never once seen on a pet thread, actually wrote: '_'On the other Brexit forum I am a member of''_ and I was inclined to point out that this, in fact, was not/is not a Brexit forum.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> arguments have run


 You are right: this is what they are exactly, instead of discussions, and this is why every Brexit thread to date has been closed.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> He admits he has bias on his podcast and he makes sure he has guests on from both sides of the argument like in the one I mentioned. It had Jack Dorsey
> 
> Ah you haven't listened to any of his podcasts, he knows he has a bias and is constantly questioning it and open to new ideas. In this particular one with twitter employees and some people that oppose how twitter utilises their policies he acts more of a mediator, a devils advocate of sorts for both sides of the argument.
> 
> View attachment 399054
> 
> 3:25:11
> Joe Rogan Experience #1258 - Jack Dorsey, Vijaya Gadde & Tim Pool. This is the one I am talking about. Very long, free on itunes. Could have been a hell of a lot longer


No I haven't listened to any of his podcasts but he sounds an interesting character, so I will when I get chance. By coincidence are you aware his podcasts are currently being discussed on RPH's plant based thread? lol I really can't see him being my cup of tea lol but I will reserve my judgement till I've had a listen myself 

And Cambridge Analytica? 



Calvine said:


> It's been mentioned a few times by the same people. I think it's the constant infighting and bickering which @SusieRainbow is talking about; that she and the other mods (volunteers) have to plough thro' miles of repeats and piles of quotes and pictures, many from dubious sources. They simply don't have the time. One poster on this thread actually wrote: '_'On the other Brexit forum I am a member of''_ and I was inclined to point out that this, in fact, was not/is not a Brexit forum.


I think this thread has done extremely well for such a contentious subject. And brexit actually does have many implications for animals. From pets, to livestock, to wildlife. And as time goes on more & more things are coming to light, so different things are being brought up. Recently Compassion in World Farming have been trying to raise awareness about this issue (below) for example Calvine, you probably missed it as you keep implying you have me on ignore. (so you probably wont see this either)

(I always try to reference my sources & they are reliable )

*The Poultry Site*‏
_"The [UK] Government is trampling over all the good work the industry has done to raise animal welfare standards."_ http://www.thepoultrysite.com/poultrynews/41146/industry-and-welfare-groups-that-battery-cages-could-return-to-britain/ … #poultry #*Brexit* #NoDeal #BrexitMayhem #AnimalWelfare
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/mar/10/brexit-egg-imports-return-welfare-farming-industry

*CIWF Media Team*‏ @media_ciwf M
Peter Stevenson @*ciwf*: "_If the government fails to protect UK farmers from cheap, low-welfare imports, it will be impossible for it to honour its commitment to using *Brexit* to achieve gold-standard levels of animal welfare" _


----------



## kimthecat

Barnier says it looks like the uk will leave with no deal.
This is a general thread. It doesnt have to be about pets.
Lets wind our necks in. I dont want this thread to be closed and im sure others dont.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> It's been mentioned a few times by the same people. I think it's the constant infighting and bickering which @SusieRainbow is talking about; that she and the other mods (volunteers) have to plough thro' miles of repeats and piles of quotes and pictures, many from dubious sources. They simply don't have the time. One poster on this thread, someone I have never once seen on a pet thread, actually wrote: '_'On the other Brexit forum I am a member of''_ and I was inclined to point out that this, in fact, was not/is not a Brexit forum.


If that was referring to myself I am indeed on a similar _off topic _Brexit thread on another forum.

That forum deals with transport and roads. Brexit does have its relevance to that forum too with many members frequently driving across Europe who'll be severely affected in future.

Perhaps not surprising there's a considerably higher number of pro EU than pro Brexit members there.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> If that was referring to myself


It wasn't . . . tho' you may have posted similar, I don't know; I am not an avid follower of this thread.


----------



## MollySmith

This list is of how the MPs voted yesterday.

Question to everyone - is there any reason why 36 MPs didn't vote at all? That's what I counted on the list before my eyes when funny! Seems a bit odd, surely they should be voting? 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-the-second-round-of-indicative-votes#table


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> This list is of how the MPs voted yesterday.
> 
> Question to everyone - is there any reason why 36 MPs didn't vote at all? That's what I counted on the list before my eyes when funny! Seems a bit odd, surely they should be voting?
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-the-second-round-of-indicative-votes#table


I dont know . Perhaps didnt want to go against party or their constituents wishes ?
Gove didnt vote and Johnson voted against all of them .
I think they did proxy voting for those who couldn't be there .

I really wouldnt want to be an MP right now !


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MollySmith said:


> This list is of how the MPs voted yesterday.
> 
> Question to everyone - is there any reason why 36 MPs didn't vote at all? That's what I counted on the list before my eyes when funny! Seems a bit odd, surely they should be voting?
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-the-second-round-of-indicative-votes#table


I believe cabinet members were told to abstain.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> I believe cabinet members were told to abstain.


My eyes are getting fuzzy too. I thought it said cabinet makers! Eh? :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> It's been mentioned a few times by the same people. I think it's the constant infighting and bickering which @SusieRainbow is talking about; that she and the other mods (volunteers) have to plough thro' miles of repeats and piles of quotes and pictures, many from dubious sources. They simply don't have the time. *One poster on this thread, someone I have never once seen on a pet thread, actually wrote: ''On the other Brexit forum I am a member of'' and I was inclined to point out that this, in fact, was not/is not a Brexit forum*.


It's worth bearing in mind that incorrect use of terminology is pretty common on the net - we recently had one banned poster here create a new account and go on a rant about how this place was an awful 'app' 

As to pet related, well this IS General Chat, and a lot of threads here would have to be closed if all threads in this part of the forum had to be pet related. But yes, Brexit will affect pets as well. I get my cat food from Zooplus - German food, as it's much better quality than most UK pet food, and about half the price of the decent grain free UK brands. Zooplus is based in Germany, so I have no idea if they will continue to ship to the UK in the event of a No Deal, or if they do how much prices will increase due to customs. I've already got my main cat food cupboard full of food, but I'm still going to be putting a big order in this week, on the grounds I can afford to and it will be used anyway. I've also stocked up on raw food, and I'm going to order more of Charlie's daily joint treatment in just in case.

I also wonder if cat shows will be able to continue as they are. TICA shows in particular tend to attract a lot of overseas entrants, and if pet passports are no longer valid that will no longer be the case. No idea what it's like for dogs, but if nothing is agreed then will big shows like Crufts come to an end?

My worst fear on that front, though, is many people will simply not be able to afford to keep their pets (or think they won't be able to) and either abandon or euthanise them. Apologies for raising WW2, but one of the lesser known statistics is that within a week of war being declared three quarters of a million perfectly healthy pets had been taken to the vets to be euthanised by their owners, by the end of the war that number reached 2,000,000.

That's even before we factor in wider animal welfare and wildlife. I'm guessing a drop in wild bird feeding will be inevitable as people prioritise due to cost of living expenses, for example.


----------



## KittenKong

The drawbridge is lifting upwards.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh no, news reports about NI returning to direct Westminster control which will work wonders for the peace process. Perhaps they'll bring back the Royal Ulster Constabulary too?

Seems to me Brexit is all about undoing the good things that happened over the past 25 years to return to times before that.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I also wonder if cat shows will be able to continue as they are. TICA shows in particular tend to attract a lot of overseas entrants, and if pet passports are no longer valid that will no longer be the case. No idea what it's like for dogs, but if nothing is agreed then will big shows like Crufts come to an end?
> 
> .


Why would it affect pet passports from the non EU countries ?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> They don't want anything do they?
> 
> *A little glimmer of hope in that last vote but I reckon that's only to cover their arses with the public*


Keir Starmer explained in his Commons speech before the vote that Labour supported the substance of the motion, but that this was the wrong time for it to be actively pushed, since they were looking for a way forwards, and that this idea would come into play only if such a way was not found. Labour therefore did not vote in favour of it. (I think they abstained.) He said they would definitely support it if the deadlock was not broken.

Those who are against a No Deal outcome remain a large majority in Parliament, and the country.


----------



## Elles

I think some cabinet makers on this thread could be told to abstain lol. I think it’s a shame when a thread is closed due to a minority winding people up. They could be banned from the thread instead, but I agree it’s a pita for the mods who aren’t remotely interested in the thread.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Why would it affect pet passports from the non EU countries ?


No idea - it's one of the reasons I'm asking!  I don't travel abroad with my pets so it's not a problem for me. But a lot of entrants at TICA shows come from EU countries, and a lot of UK exhibitors travel to EU country based TICA shows. At the moment they can cross the border freely to do so. If that is no longer the case, or if costs increase more than nominally, I'd expect that to drop off significantly.

Of course, in the event of a No Deal Brexit then I suspect frivolities such as cat and dog shows may struggle to continue anyway (along with other more niche or cost intensive events) as most people will have less spare cash with which to indulge.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> My worst fear on that front, though, is many people will simply not be able to afford to keep their pets (or think they won't be able to) and either abandon or euthanise them. Apologies for raising WW2, but one of the lesser known statistics is that within a week of war being declared three quarters of a million perfectly healthy pets had been taken to the vets to be euthanised by their owners, by the end of the war that number reached 2,000,000.
> 
> That's even before we factor in wider animal welfare and wildlife. I'm guessing a drop in wild bird feeding will be inevitable as people prioritise due to cost of living expenses, for example.


It's been a big concern to me too. What if people for whatever reason have to return to the UK having lived outside for years. Without the pet passport scheme bringing over pets could become prohibitively expensive, so they'll be abandoned or put in a shelter somewhere

A couple of months ago there was a FB post about a cat in Cyprus who was looking for a new home as his owner was returning to the UK.

As can be expected the owner got some very critical feedback and quite rightly in my opinion for the 'disposal' of his loyal companion as if a disposable commodity.

No excuse at all with the Pet Passport scheme in place, but when that's gone it might not be avoidable in future.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> The drawbridge is lifting upwards.
> View attachment 399071


How strange! I've received two parcels posted from the UK in the past week - in fact one arrived at lunch time today, having been posted in Gloucester on the 26th March. And certainly no sign on the parcel of a customs form or it having been checked on entry into Hungary.

I've just been to the travel agents to finalise my and my Granddaughter's coach trip to the Czech Republic at the beginning of May. No problem whatsoever even though she's travelling on a British Passport and although I'll take my passport I'll use my Hungarian ID like I usually do.

Last week the Hungarian Parliament passed into law the new legislation regarding UK citizens living in Hungary. It's a 17 page document covering all Brexit eventualities and providing one has a Permanent Residents Permit which one has always been obliged to have, UK citizens will enjoy the same rights that they always have.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> How strange! I've received two parcels posted from the UK in the past week - in fact one arrived at lunch time today, having been posted in Gloucester on the 26th March. And certainly no sign on the parcel of a customs form or it having been checked on entry into Hungary.


It's probably just prep work along the lines of better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Given no-one here still has any idea of what - if any - deal we will be leaving with, we're having to address multiple potential scenarios as best we can. If we leave without a deal (hopefully not!) or without being part of the Customs Union or having an alternate agreement (seems more likely despite the massive impact), then customs forms will be needed immediately.

To be honest, the biggest worry for most of us in imports. A lot of our utilities and critical infrastructure rely on Just In Time deliveries from the EU for critical elements and spare parts. Delays on that stuff and you're looking at restricted availability or much longer lead times to repair breakdowns.


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-after-brexit


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> How strange! I've received two parcels posted from the UK in the past week - in fact one arrived at lunch time today, having been posted in Gloucester on the 26th March. And certainly no sign on the parcel of a customs form or it having been checked on entry into Hungary.
> 
> I've just been to the travel agents to finalise my and my Granddaughter's coach trip to the Czech Republic at the beginning of May. No problem whatsoever even though she's travelling on a British Passport and although I'll take my passport I'll use my Hungarian ID like I usually do.
> 
> Last week the Hungarian Parliament passed into law the new legislation regarding UK citizens living in Hungary. It's a 17 page document covering all Brexit eventualities and providing one has a Permanent Residents Permit which one has always been obliged to have, UK citizens will enjoy the same rights that they always have.


Obviously I can't speak for Hungary but I've heard similar from Spain for example, _but only if the UK Government guarantee the same for their citizens._ With Theresa May in charge I'm not confident she would agree to that with her anti-immigration stance.

As for the UK Post Office, with Brexit originally scheduled for 29/03/19 I guess they were prepared for a no deal scenario which would most certainly result in customs checks again for that item ordered from France, not seen for over 25 years...


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Hmm. I get the impression that even the reasonable words hide a rather more unpalatable agenda. But of the ones she did use ...
> 
> Cameron's main request was for an end to freedom of movement, which this lady probably forgot to mention, though a cynic might conclude that she only included the demands that were easier to grant in an organisation based on the 4 freedoms.
> 
> *And her "quote" from Barnier would be more convincing if it wasn't hearsay.*
> 
> Certainly interesting, though, to see that Rees-Mogg approves of a speech which lays out quite clearly the economic damage that Brexit will do, while simultaneously claiming that the UK will be vastly better off.


It was quoted during the first episode of a 2016 French TV programme called "Brexit : Les secrets d'un bras de fer historique"

https://www.lepoint.fr/monde/brexit...storique-episode-1--28-11-2018-2275148_24.php

Unfortunately the videos are behind a paywall.

The actual quote in French was

"J'aurais reussi ma mission si, a la fin, le deal est tellement dur pour les Britaniques qu'ils preferement rester dans l'Union"


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-after-brexit


Lol, it basically says ask your vet. Maybe TM is asking the wrong people. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Lol, it basically says ask your vet. Maybe TM is asking the wrong people. :Hilarious


:Hilarious I didnt read it  Im going crossed eyed with all this reading .


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> It was quoted during the first episode of a 2016 French TV programme called "Brexit : Les secrets d'un bras de fer historique"
> 
> https://www.lepoint.fr/monde/brexit...storique-episode-1--28-11-2018-2275148_24.php
> 
> The actual quote in French was
> 
> "J'aurais reussi ma mission si, a la fin, le deal est tellement dur pour les Britaniques qu'ils preferement rester dans l'Union"


We'll done for finding that . I binged and googled it and only saw one reference to it . Search engines seem pretty crap nowadays.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I didnt read it  Im going crossed eyed with all this reading .


I only read the important bit, highlighted in a box and the first thing I read. It says

"To make sure your pet is able to travel from the UK to the EU after EU Exit in any scenario, you should contact your vet at least 4 months before travelling to get the latest advice."

I'd guess we are less than 4 months from 'any scenario' so our vets should already know the answer?


----------



## noushka05

Looks like we're heading for no deal then. When Naomi Klein wrote the Shock Doctrine no one saw Brexit coming. But she has already told those of us who have read her book what to expect.

Brexit is the disaster capitalists end game.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...saster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Magyarmum said:


> How strange! I've received two parcels posted from the UK in the past week - in fact one arrived at lunch time today, having been posted in Gloucester on the 26th March. And certainly no sign on the parcel of a customs form or it having been checked on entry into Hungary.
> 
> I've just been to the travel agents to finalise my and my Granddaughter's coach trip to the Czech Republic at the beginning of May. No problem whatsoever even though she's travelling on a British Passport and although I'll take my passport I'll use my Hungarian ID like I usually do.
> 
> Last week the Hungarian Parliament passed into law the new legislation regarding UK citizens living in Hungary. It's a 17 page document covering all Brexit eventualities and providing one has a Permanent Residents Permit which one has always been obliged to have, UK citizens will enjoy the same rights that they always have.


I go to the Post Office to mail packets across the EU and worldwide every day. I've not been told to put customs labels on the EU packets. I'll check again tomorrow. 

Eta.Customs labels will be needed in event of 'no deal'


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I only read the important bit, highlighted in a box and the first thing I read. It says
> 
> "To make sure your pet is able to travel from the UK to the EU after EU Exit in any scenario, you should contact your vet at least 4 months before travelling to get the latest advice."
> 
> I'd guess we are less than 4 months from 'any scenario' so our vets should already know the answer?


Clicked on the link that leads to No deal scenerio . I didnt read that either. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Its a load of links that cover everything and it is dated 2018 .


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Obviously I can't speak for Hungary but I've heard similar from Spain for example, _but only if the UK Government guarantee the same for their citizens._ With Theresa May in charge I'm not confident she would agree to that with her anti-immigration stance.
> 
> As for the UK Post Office, with Brexit originally scheduled for 29/03/19 I guess they were prepared for a no deal scenario which would most certainly result in customs checks again for that item ordered from France, not seen for over 25 years...


As I said in my post the new legislation covers every possible Brexit scenario. Unlike France of Spain if you wish to retire/live/work in Hungary you have to obtain a Residence Permit within 3 months of entering the country, irrespective of whether you're an EU citizen or not. As for health care, social security, etc people of working age have always been able to get cover by paying into the Hungarian system.

The Hungarian Government have stated that UK citizens living in the country won't be regarded as third country nationals but will enjoy a "special status" which gives them virtually the same rights as an EU or Hungarian citizen.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> As I said in my post the new legislation covers every possible Brexit scenario. Unlike France of Spain if you wish to retire/live/work in Hungary you have to obtain a Residence Permit within 3 months of entering the country, irrespective of whether you're an EU citizen or not. As for health care, social security, etc people of working age have always been able to get cover by paying into the Hungarian system.
> 
> The Hungarian Government have stated that UK citizens living in the country won't be regarded as third country nationals but will enjoy a "special status" which gives them virtually the same rights as an EU or Hungarian citizen.


So it seems individual countries can chose if they give us "Special Status " , so to speak .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I only read the important bit, highlighted in a box and the first thing I read. It says
> 
> "To make sure your pet is able to travel from the UK to the EU after EU Exit in any scenario, you should contact your vet at least 4 months before travelling to get the latest advice."
> 
> I'd guess we are less than 4 months from 'any scenario' so our vets should already know the answer?


So when Garfield is sick again I have to predict it in six months in advance?
Or if I want to take my dog for a walk?
Both have EU passport.

But Garfield's got lost, also because his compromised immunity better not to vaccinate to get another,he is still indoor cat, no chance of rabies, anyhow I have it heard about it been present in Gibraltar!!!!


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I go to the Post Office to mail packets across the EU and worldwide every day. I've not been told to put customs labels on the EU packets. I'll check again tomorrow.
> 
> Eta.Customs labels will be needed in event of 'no deal'


Very sad. Just as Europe had opened up to me I now feel the door is being slammed in my face.

Whatever happens, things will never be the same as what we enjoyed. It won't feel the same either


----------



## rona

PM statement soon


----------



## noushka05

Well. Who could have predicted? Not like a tory to find a scapegoat :Hilarious

*James O'Brien*‏Verified account @mrjamesob 24s25 seconds ago
_Oh god. She's trying to bore Parliament into submission & pin the blame for any failure on Labour.

....._


----------



## rona

Bloody cowards


----------



## noushka05

So transparent. The tories are truly despicable. It amazes me how so many people are fooled by these shyster

*Robert Peston*‏Verified account @Peston 2m2 minutes ago
_This is @theresa_may and Cabinet trying to shift to Labour responsibility for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April. PM says it is no deal unless Labour negotiates responsibly
_
*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84 2m2 minutes ago
_I'm sorry, but the Prime Minister is completely and utterly taking the mick. Her latest speech offering talks with Jeremy Corbyn is just a transparent ruse to shift the blame for her catastrophic failure. She is wasting all of our time._


----------



## emmaviolet

JC shouldn't touch this with a barge pole.

Brexit is going to be disastrous, even with the common market, it'll upset remainers and brexiteers.

They want to move her mess away from her and the Tory party and onto Labour and Corbyn, it's just like the Lib Dems getting the blame for Cameron's harsh policies. It's a trap.


----------



## KittenKong

Now, if I was a Brexit supporter who wanted no deal I would be furious with this statement. It has nothing to do with wanting no deal because they're fed up.

Now, Jeremy Corbyn wants his own deal, so will not agree to backing May's withdrawal agreement. May insists she will only if Corbyn agrees to that.

So, nothing has changed. It's either her deal or no deal.

While she remains PM I hope the EU say no to a further extension. May still believes she can dictate to them.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Bloody cowards


Who? Theresa May and her government or people rejecting her deal?


----------



## noushka05




----------



## samuelsmiles3

Euratom/Nuclear updates. 

Nuclear Industry Association.

_"BEIS in its most recent update on Euratom have confirmed the final international agreement with Japan is now in place, which means the UK now has all the international agreements required to ensure that civil nuclear trade with our key international partners can continue following withdrawal from Euratom."

"This means the core part of the industry's day to day business, would be unhindered in the event of a no deal Brexit"
_
World Nuclear News_.

"The UK and the European Commission signed a contract extension today for the world's largest fusion research facility, Joint European Torus (JET). The extension secures at least EUR100 million (USD112 million) in additional inward investment from the EU over the next two years and "brings reassurance" for the more than 500 staff at the site in Culham, near Oxford, the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy (BEIS) said.

_


----------



## emmaviolet

SusieRainbow said:


> This thread has reached nearly 600 pages and only now are we talking about the impact on our pets !
> Thus reinforcing my belief that this debate is does not really belong on a Pet Forum.
> I'm not by any means under-estimating the importance of this issue ,just saying that our moderation time is better spent on moderating directly pet-related issues.
> No more from me unless the report button is re-activated.


Is this not on the General Chat forum though, which doesn't have to be about pets?


KittenKong said:


> Who? Theresa May and her government or people rejecting her deal?


That's what I took it to mean.She's a coward for not stepping down or going for a GE or people's vote. A coward as she's now trying to pin it on Labour.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Who? Theresa May and her government or people rejecting her deal?


The whole of the UK government

They are all trying to stay in while trying to tell us we are getting out


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder how she can pin the blame on Labour seeing they didn't call the referendum nor are in government.

After all, how many Tories are blamed for the Iraq War? Yes, they weren't in government yet most Tories, including May voted for it!

Sadly I fear Corbyn might take up her offer seeing he has suggested his assistance in the past which May rejected.

Then perhaps I shouldn't worry as he's hardly going to switch to supporting May's deal is he, which is a condition of May working with him!

May doesn't want no deal but only her deal. Nothing else. I won't repeat my comments earlier in the thread, only to believe I've been right all along.
*
*Should no deal happen which I now think is 80%-20% likely she can blame everyone but herself for not backing her deal.

She'll probably fight the next GE on her bloody deal, if there is one in 2022....


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> The drawbridge is lifting upwards.
> View attachment 399071


This must be fake.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> So when Garfield is sick again I have to predict it in six months in advance?
> Or if I want to take my dog for a walk?
> Both have EU passport.
> 
> But Garfield's got lost, also because his compromised immunity better not to vaccinate to get another,he is still indoor cat, no chance of rabies, anyhow I have it heard about it been present in Gibraltar!!!!


Looks like it. They're a bunch of, well, you can insert your own expletive. People need to know where they stand, so they can try to sort things out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> The whole of the UK government
> 
> They are all trying to stay in while trying to tell us we are getting out


Have you heard Ken Clarke?
About the future of agriculture in UK and the effect of American low food standards?
That American government is protectionist and agriculture lobbies are very strong?

That New Zealand, Australia want to export lamb and beef to Britain?

He has vast expertise and Tory or not is made of different stuff to BoJo and JRM.
From times when Tories had responsible people among them and would not give in to ERG...


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The whole of the UK government
> 
> They are all trying to stay in while trying to tell us we are getting out


Thanks for your comment Rona

I think it's more about exiting under the May plan rather than staying in the EU though.

Our opinions differ considerably, but I do share your frustrations though for different reasons of course.


----------



## emmaviolet

I'm thinking the Government knows a GE is in the works, today we got flyers for IDS and the great work he's done within our community....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Looks like it. They're a bunch of, well, you can insert your own expletive. People need to know where they stand, so they can try to sort things out.


I sadly don't have much hope in neither of our party leaders.... 
Put say Starmer and Osborne together and then we might have a chance for dialogue...


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Sadly I fear Corbyn might take up her offer seeing he has suggested his assistance in the past which May rejected.


He's had a paddy and walked out of two meeting and one he refused to go to at all


----------



## Elles

New Zealand lamb is already in the supermarket. I’m not buying cheap food from America, you can if you like. Well you might be able to, though I thought we weren’t lowering standards. I haven’t looked tbh. It changes on a daily basis.

On a pet related thing. Elles is in hospital on Monday having a lump removed from her stifle that is interfering with her joint. So if I’m grumpy and sensitive it’s because of that. Lucky for us we don’t need a passport for it.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Looks like the Nays have won but very close.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47781009


If non of the labour MPs had voted against the confirmatory referendum, the ayes would have won.

But, I don't understand the detail - would it be a public vote on any deal or remain?


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> On a pet related thing. Elles is in hospital on Monday having a lump removed from her stifle that is interfering with her joint. So if I'm grumpy and sensitive it's because of that. Lucky for us we don't need a passport for it.


Hope all goes well x


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> New Zealand lamb is already in the supermarket. I'm not buying cheap food from America, you can if you like. Well you might be able to, though I thought we weren't lowering standards. I haven't looked tbh. It changes on a daily basis.
> 
> On a pet related thing. Elles is in hospital on Monday having a lump removed from her stifle that is interfering with her joint. So if I'm grumpy and sensitive it's because of that. Lucky for us we don't need a passport for it.


Hope everything goes ok on Monday. Do they think it could be something nasty in the lump? 
I too am rather distracted at the moment but for another reason. This Brexit thing seems rather pathetic against other stuff going on doesn't it?


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> If non of the labour MPs had voted against the confirmatory referendum, the ayes would have won.
> 
> But, I don't understand the detail - would it be a public vote on any deal or remain?


I dont know!


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> But, I don't understand the detail - would it be a public vote on any deal or remain?


If they let the public vote, the need to put no deal in there too otherwise they are not really allowing us a free vote


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> Hope everything goes ok on Monday. Do they think it could be something nasty in the lump?
> I too am rather distracted at the moment but for another reason. This Brexit thing seems rather pathetic against other stuff going on doesn't it?


I do often think that folks can't have much going on in their lives if Brexit is the most important thing out there.

I guess that would be a nice place to be if there are no personal troubles to be a distraction.


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> If they let the public vote, the need to put no deal in there too otherwise they are not really allowing us a free vote


I really don't think that no deal is the way forward.

Although I'm hoping I'm well off enough to gain from Brexit 

That's tongue in cheek, don't leap on me anyone


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> He's had a paddy and walked out of two meeting and one he refused to go to at all


He wants GE , which he can actually lose. 
Even against Clockwork Maybot ...
Irascible, temperamental, controversial - how can he unite anything?

Remember Gordon Brown???

This what I mean, solid and steadfast.

Can't No Deal fans understand that half of the nation doesn't want any Brexit at all?
From those who do many are far from extreme Brexit.
Minority is dragging us all to the abyss.

WTO rules? How many who hold those posters actually understand WTO rules!!!

Once again support for something you have no faintest what it is on about and how it translates into hormone fed, chlorine washed chicken?

It will be fine JRM says... have I heard it before????


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> New Zealand lamb is already in the supermarket. I'm not buying cheap food from America, you can if you like. Well you might be able to, though I thought we weren't lowering standards. I haven't looked tbh. It changes on a daily basis.
> 
> On a pet related thing. Elles is in hospital on Monday having a lump removed from her stifle that is interfering with her joint. So if I'm grumpy and sensitive it's because of that. Lucky for us we don't need a passport for it.


Poor chica, hope all goes well, hugs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> I do often think that folks can't have much going on in their lives if Brexit is the most important thing out there.
> 
> I guess that would be a nice place to be if there are no personal troubles to be a distraction.


Depends how much it may affect you directly....
For us here obviously does.


----------



## SusieRainbow

emmaviolet said:


> Is this not on the General Chat forum though, which doesn't have to be about pets


My point is that we have frequent posters on this thread who never post in any of the pet sections of the Forum.
It just seems wrong to me that this long-standing debate is running and kept alive by some members who appear to have joined the forum for the sole purpose of debating Brexit. That's not so much an issue in itself , it's just when the squabbles and name calling start and we're expected to know the background behind the disagreement.

I hope Elle's surgery goes well, I'd be grumpy too with that weighing on me.xx


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Depends how much it may affect you directly....
> For us here obviously does.


I understand it affects you adversely. But then I haven't had the positives of living in Gibraltar so I won't be as affected as you. So yes, you probably have more to lose - but you don't post as adamantly as others on this thread..... They must have something else to distract them....


----------



## cheekyscrip

SusieRainbow said:


> My point is that we have frequent posters on this thread who never post in any of the pet sections of the Forum.
> It just seems wrong to me that this long-standing debate is running and kept alive by some members who appear to have joined the forum for the sole purpose of debating Brexit. That's not so much an issue in itself , it's just when the squabbles and name calling start and we're expected to know the background behind the disagreement.
> 
> I hope Elle's surgery goes well, I'd be grumpy too with that weighing on me.xx


Well... some maybe less active in other parts of pf but nevertheless members of long standing ( like moi ... nine years here)... there are some newcomers of course...
But such is freedom of speech...

Best course... avoid those you do not wish to debate with IMO.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> I understand it affects you adversely. But then I haven't had the positives of living in Gibraltar so I won't be as affected as you. So yes, you probably have more to lose - but you don't post as adamantly as others on this thread..... They must have something else to distract them....


_Cheeky to herself " Must get adamanter"...:Bag_


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 399101
> 
> Now, if I was a Brexit supporter who wanted no deal I would be furious with this statement. It has nothing to do with wanting no deal because they're fed up.
> 
> Now, *Jeremy Corbyn wants his own deal, so will not agree to backing May's withdrawal agreement*. May insists she will only if Corbyn agrees to that.
> 
> So, nothing has changed. It's either her deal or no deal.
> 
> While she remains PM I hope the EU say no to a further extension. May still believes she can dictate to them.


As far as I know, Corbyn is not suggesting any changes to the Withdrawal Agreement; it's just the divorce bill, expat Eu / UK citizen rights, and the backstop.

Not that that helps much!


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> _Cheeky to herself " Must get adamanter"...:Bag_


----------



## SusieRainbow

cheekyscrip said:


> Best course... avoid those you do not wish to debate with IMO.


I do where possible , and only venture onto the Brexit thread when dealing with complaints, certainly not from choice.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> He's had a paddy and walked out of two meeting and one he refused to go to at all


And those who stayed confirmed she would not compromise, they were PR stunts.










Its blatantly obvious the tories are going to try to pin their mess on labour.

This. (via Tom London)
_
May has completely bungled negotiations

She knows that the Tories will be decimated at an election now

She has been discussing with her Cabinet of no-hopers how somehow to shift the blame onto Corbyn

Watch all the Tories' media friends do their utmost to help her do just that_
_

............................_


----------



## MollySmith

SusieRainbow said:


> My point is that we have frequent posters on this thread who never post in any of the pet sections of the Forum.
> It just seems wrong to me that this long-standing debate is running and kept alive by some members who appear to have joined the forum for the sole purpose of debating Brexit. That's not so much an issue in itself , it's just when the squabbles and name calling start and we're expected to know the background behind the disagreement.
> 
> I hope Elle's surgery goes well, I'd be grumpy too with that weighing on me.xx


I can see that being an issue and I'm guilty of not popping into Dog Chat!

To be honest I wish you were all in charge of Brexit but hugs, it must really difficult to mod this and I've stepped away often because it's very easy to waste hours debating little we can change.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> _Cheeky to herself " Must get adamanter"...:Bag_


Wasn't he one of the Three Musketeers?


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> The whole of the UK government
> 
> They are all trying to stay in while trying to tell us we are getting out


Depends on one's definition of 'Leave', as ever.

'No longer bound by the Treaties governing membership of the European Union' would paraphrase the legal definition. But presumably everyone knew that when they voted.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Hope everything goes ok on Monday. Do they think it could be something nasty in the lump?
> I too am rather distracted at the moment but for another reason. *This Brexit thing seems rather pathetic against other stuff going on doesn't it?*


To be honest it has served to distract me from what else is going on. Though last Sunday was a bit difficult to ignore.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> If they let the public vote, the need to put no deal in there too otherwise they are not really allowing us a free vote


Of course! Something we agree on!

I don't buy the suggestion from some that it should only include May's deal or no deal as that's leaving those remain voting parts to choose between the options they never voted for in the first place. I would not participate in such a vote as that to me would look like a General Election with the options being only Theresa May or Boris Johnson on the ballot paper.

Conversely, it could be argued a vote only for Revoke A50 or May's deal would be unfair.for England and Wales who originally voted for leave.

As things stand, there's certainly a bigger appetite for rescinding A50 or leaving with no deal than there is for May's deal.

The only one who refuses to accept that is Theresa May herself.


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> I do often think that folks can't have much going on in their lives if Brexit is the most important thing out there.
> 
> I guess that would be a nice place to be if there are no personal troubles to be a distraction.


Well, a lot of people it will affect adversely. The poorest in society will get a lot poorer. It was leaked today if there is a no deal to 'expect unprecedented poverty' many would wish to avoid that.



MilleD said:


> I really don't think that no deal is the way forward.
> 
> *Although I'm hoping I'm well off enough to gain from Brexit*
> 
> That's tongue in cheek, don't leap on me anyone


And that may be why you don't have to worry, count yourself privileged and maybe don't presume people have empty lives for being concerned they can be plunged into 'unprecedented poverty' while many are smug they can cash in on others misfortune.


----------



## emmaviolet

Elles said:


> New Zealand lamb is already in the supermarket. I'm not buying cheap food from America, you can if you like. Well you might be able to, though I thought we weren't lowering standards. I haven't looked tbh. It changes on a daily basis.
> 
> On a pet related thing. Elles is in hospital on Monday having a lump removed from her stifle that is interfering with her joint. So if I'm grumpy and sensitive it's because of that. Lucky for us we don't need a passport for it.


All the best for Elles surgery. Hopefully it'll give her and then you some relief after Monday.


----------



## KittenKong

I don't have a good feeling about this.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> I really don't think that no deal is the way forward.
> 
> Although I'm hoping I'm well off enough to gain from Brexit
> 
> That's tongue in cheek, don't leap on me anyone


I like the idea of no deal, but as long as we get out, and I mean out properly I'll be happy enough..I'm poor as a church mouse, so have nothing to gain but a better future for those that come after


----------



## Jonescat

Well Hallelujah. We will not deliberately leave with no deal after all, although they could still muck it up through sheer incompetence and arrogance.It has still cost a fortune so far though, and that has to be paid for by the consumer of both goods and services. Proof of the pudding and all that, but the sky looks a little brighter to me.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I do often think that folks can't have much going on in their lives if Brexit is the most important thing out there.
> 
> I guess that would be a nice place to be if there are no personal troubles to be a distraction.


But you forget being part of the EU is very much a big part in many of our lives.

Take Cheeky's posts concerning veterinary treatment for her pets in Spain for exanple.

And for myself personally I have a relation living within the EU who's suffered from poor health recently. At present I only need to flash my passport to visit in short notice. In future I might have to apply for a visa as well as take out health insurance with the ending of the European Health Insurance Scheme for the shortest of visits.

I know you didn't mean any malice with your post Millie, but Brexit will have an impact on many of us so, no wonder our concerns are at the top of our agenda.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> But you forget being part of the EU is very much a big part in many of our lives.
> 
> Take Cheeky's posts concerning veterinary treatment for her pets in Spain for exanple.
> 
> And for myself personally I have a relation living within the EU who's suffered from poor health recently. At present I only need to flash my passport to visit in short notice. In future I might have to apply for a visa as well as take out health insurance with the ending of the European Health Insurance Scheme for the shortest of visits.
> 
> I know you didn't mean any malice with your post Millie, but Brexit will have an impact on many of us so, no wonder our concerns are at the top of our agenda.


I have elderly and poorly mother in EU. My son works in Italy. My OH has family in Spain, cousin is getting married in July...
Our supplies and tourists come from Spain, 8000 workers come to Gibraltar every day...
Our jobs will be cut down and I might be unemployed...
Where to start???

We cannot move to UK. We have family to feed.

What will poverty mean to pets?
Will people be able to afford them, veterinary care?

How animal lovers feel about it?

How rescues and shelters will cope?

Are Brexit fans happy to sacrifice all those lives?

Look the other way?

This is what poverty means!!!

Brexit is SELFISH!!! Brexit is CRUEL!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

SusieRainbow said:


> I do where possible , and only venture onto the Brexit thread when dealing with complaints, certainly not from choice.


Wretched fate of a Mod...

Plus you must behave!!!

No flippant remarks... no memes...no sarcasm....

:Muted


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I do often think that folks can't have much going on in their lives if Brexit is the most important thing out there.
> 
> I guess that would be a nice place to be if there are no personal troubles to be a distraction.


It can be a distraction from personal trouble , takes your mind off things and gives you a break.
Im on here a lot because I cant do other things so it gives me something to do .


----------



## kimthecat

So the discussions today , Was anything achieved ?

ETA Nothing really.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I don't have a good feeling about this.
> 
> View attachment 399125
> 
> 
> View attachment 399127


 Ugh , scary , creepy photo. You should give a warning


----------



## MollySmith

To be honest the more I read the news and listen, the more I think it was so foolish to let us vote. I’m in danger of a May 360 disco move given I said elsewhere that we should have a second vote, but there are so many implications to all of this that we were all ill qualified to vote on because we never knew about them. That’s my view on leave and remain.


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> To be honest the more I read the news and listen, the more I think it was so foolish to let us vote. .


It was stupid of them to vote for us to have a referendum when none of them had the faintest idea what to do if we voted to leave. All smugly convinced we'd vote to remain. Politicians in all parties voted in favour of it and it was the most stupid thing they could have done at the time and proof that they are all idiots who don't have a clue.

Whatever else they voted for in their careers, however good and moral and kind it may seem, is overwritten by their stupidity in voting for the U.K. public to have a referendum that basically asked them if they like the Eu. The majority, even those who love Europe and even those who voted remain, don't particularly love the Eu. The Eu isn't an easy sell, when even it's staunchest supporters believe it needs reform.

They should have been prepared for the leave vote, but they weren't then and they aren't now. They're irritating the heck out of me atm. More than the scratchy guitar in the ketchup advert. I have to switch them off.

/rant :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

I fail to understand why Facebook 'permitted' me to receive posts from Leave Means Leave, advertising for a No Deal Brexit.

Are they now that desperate they're targeting the most passionate of Euro/Schengen EU supporting users such as myself?!


----------



## KittenKong

Seeing Corbyn has accepted May's pleas to save her Brexit I can see the talks breaking down very quickly.

Corbyn, unlike May, now accepts not everyone voted for, or now backs leaving the EU! Took him long enough.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I go to the Post Office to mail packets across the EU and worldwide every day. I've not been told to put customs labels on the EU packets. I'll check again tomorrow.
> 
> Eta.Customs labels will be needed in event of 'no deal'





MilleD said:


> This must be fake.


Not fake at all. See the link to the PO site provided by Samuelsmiles 3 above.

As mentioned earlier this was probably in preparation in the event of a No Deal Brexit destined for 29/03/19.


----------



## MilleD

_
_

_
_



KittenKong said:


> Not fake at all. See the link to the PO site provided by Samuelsmiles 3 above.
> 
> As mentioned earlier this was probably in preparation in the event of a No Deal Brexit destined for 29/03/19.


Why would the sign be out? We haven't left.....

From the link you mention:

*Do I need to fill out a customs form?*
Yes, if you're sending goods or gifts to a country outside the EU.


----------



## MilleD

emmaviolet said:


> Well, a lot of people it will affect adversely. The poorest in society will get a lot poorer. It was leaked today if there is a no deal to 'expect unprecedented poverty' many would wish to avoid that.
> 
> And that may be why you don't have to worry, count yourself privileged and maybe don't presume people have empty lives for being concerned they can be plunged into 'unprecedented poverty' while many are smug they can cash in on others misfortune.


 Did you even see the bit written underneath? I see that Brexit means that Britain loses it's sense of humour.....


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> It can be a distraction from personal trouble , takes your mind off things and gives you a break.
> Im on here a lot because I cant do other things so it gives me something to do .


You aren't scouring the internet for stuff to post about it every second of the day though 

Honestly, I'm surprised that some people haven't made themselves ill.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You aren't scouring the internet for stuff to post about it every second of the day though
> 
> Honestly, I'm surprised that some people haven't made themselves ill.


Rather than sarcasm it would be interesting to hear what true blue Tory voters here think of the prospect of their PM working with Jeremy Corbyn to deliver Brexit. I understand many Tories are very unhappy with this.

I see the 'Corbyn can do no wrong' FB pages have been conspicuous by their silence. Will their hero really sell out in this manner by supporting TM?

We'll see.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> _
> _
> 
> Why would the sign be out? We haven't left.....
> 
> From the link you mention:
> 
> *Do I need to fill out a customs form?*
> Yes, if you're sending goods or gifts to a country outside the EU.


From the link you quoted...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> Not fake at all. See the link to the PO site provided by Samuelsmiles 3 above.
> 
> As mentioned earlier this was probably in preparation in the event of a No Deal Brexit destined for 29/03/19.


*What has Royal Mail been doing to plan for leaving the EU?*

_"In our half year results we set out how we're getting ready for leaving the EU. *We are well placed to manage the impact of changes to customs processing."
*_
Like a lot of stuff, maybe some are getting their knickers in a twist about impending doom without fully understanding what is going on behind the scenes (me included). Theresa May may be utterly useless, the government and shadow governments are utterly useless and the EU is utterly intransigent but we'll survive and prosper despite this.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> I fail to understand why Facebook 'permitted' me to receive posts from Leave Means Leave, advertising for a No Deal Brexit.
> 
> Are they now that desperate they're targeting the most passionate of Euro/Schengen EU supporting users such as myself?!


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> *What has Royal Mail been doing to plan for leaving the EU?*
> 
> _"In our half year results we set out how we're getting ready for leaving the EU. *We are well placed to manage the impact of changes to customs processing."
> *_
> Like a lot of stuff, maybe some are getting their knickers in a twist about impending doom without fully understanding what is going on behind the scenes (me included). Theresa May may be utterly useless, the government and shadow governments are utterly useless and the EU is utterly intransigent but we'll survive and prosper despite this.


Survive?, probably, but prosper? A primitive 'country' that looks backwards rather than forwards? Can't even fully adapt to the metric system?
:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Rather than sarcasm it would be interesting to hear what true blue Tory voters here think of the prospect of their PM working with Jeremy Corbyn to deliver Brexit. I understand many Tories are very unhappy with this.
> 
> I see the 'Corbyn can do no wrong' FB pages have been conspicuous by their silence. Will their hero really sell out in this manner by supporting TM?
> 
> We'll see.


It wasn't sarcasm.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> From the link you quoted...
> 
> View attachment 399161


Yes I read that. You do know we haven't actually left - with a deal or without one?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Yes I read that. You do know we haven't actually left - with a deal or without one?


Yes, it's great knowing this some days after Theresa May repeatedly said she would leave, deal or no deal on the 29th March. Five days ago:Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

May's proposal is to ask for an extension to May 22nd.

She then 'discusses' with Corbyn potential ways forwards, but of course will not be prepared to move any of her red lines, so there is no way forwards.

The clock is run down again but with the important difference that May 22nd is an immovable date. By then it will be too late for the UK to take part in MEP elections, and we will HAVE to leave the EU with - wait for it - May's Deal or No Deal. 

She hopes finally to manoeuvre Parliament into a position where they have no choice but to approve her deal or trash the prospects of the next generation - farmers included - by going for No Deal.

And she can blame Corbyn & Labour.

It's an obvious trap and the sensible heads in the Commons will have seen through it immediately. Hopefully they will, today, begin to get legislation through to force the longer extension that is now required, and which should be supported by anyone who cares about the people of this country rather than the myth of its exceptional greatness.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> Survive, probably but prosper?
> *I doubt that very much being entrapped on this Island.*


For me, and my modest lifestyle, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It has given me the opportunity, like no other country on earth, to lead a comfortable and free existence that I don't think any other country could give me. I'm not rich (quite the opposite), I wasn't given a privileged upbringing and have had health issues in the past. But we are free despite all of your cries of "fascists" and "Hitler" etc. You insult people who have in the past, and still do today, suffer from true fascism.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> For me, and my modest lifestyle, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It has given me the opportunity, like no other country on earth, to lead a comfortable and free existence that I don't think any other country could give me. I'm not rich (quite the opposite), I wasn't given a privileged upbringing and have had health issues in the past. But we are free despite all of your cries of "fascists" and "Hitler" etc. You insult people who have in the past, and still do today, suffer from true fascism.


And its vitally important to recognise that the far right is on the rise here - and across the globe. And politicians like Farage & Mogg are emboldening them!










We should beware of national pride. Nationalism is the measles of mankind.


----------



## noushka05

I always though Andrea Loathsome was deranged - now I'm sure of it! What a nasty, dangerous creature she is.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> And its vitally important to recognise that the far right is on the rise here - and across the globe. And politicians like Farage & Mogg are emboldening them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should beware of national pride. Nationalism is the measles of mankind.


We need to move inexorably forwards to one tribe, celebrating our differences but working together for a better future for all, not perpetuating - and definitely not reinstating via Brexit and beyond - the proliferation of competing groups, each convinced of its own superiority, preferring zero sum games where 'the other' must lose for 'us' to win. If we do not learn from history, we are surely destined to repeat it.

I may have said that before!


----------



## emmaviolet

MilleD said:


> Did you even see the bit written underneath? I see that Brexit means that Britain loses it's sense of humour.....


I don't believe anyone other then that being the truth would even say something like that, so my post still stands.

Someone worried about being plunged into poverty wouldn't say something along the lines of being well off enough to make money from it. It wasn't actually a joke, was it? There's clearly truth to it, you may have said it tongue in cheek, but it's not actually a joke.

Forgive me, but I find it rather crass when some are worried about losing everything, to even joke about your abilities to gain from it, but that could well be me, and I have nothing going on in my life, as you insinuated, and have lost my sense of humour. 

And apologies if I don't find unprecedented poverty any reason to have a giggle....


----------



## CollieSlave

On the BBC News website -
_Jacob Rees-Mogg, another prominent Brexiteer, described the offer as "deeply unsatisfactory" and accused Mrs May of planning to collaborate with "a known Marxist"._

Personally, I prefer "a known Marxist" to a known Fascist!!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> it basically says ask your vet.


My vet has already emailed to say, in effect, ''watch this space'' and that they will update us as and when facts become known.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Remember Gordon Brown???


I heard he sold off half the UK's gold reserves??


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> It wasn't sarcasm.


You beat me to it, as always!!


----------



## AlexPed2393

I'm almost hoping there is an extension to 22nd of May so I can have a relaxing lead up to my honeymoon :Bag


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I heard he sold off half the UK's gold reserves??


Though he did keep the pound.


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> You insult people who have in the past, and still do today, suffer from true fascism


I totally agree . . . some expressions should not be used so flippantly.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> We need to move inexorably forwards to one tribe, celebrating our differences but working together for a better future for all, not perpetuating - and definitely not reinstating via Brexit and beyond - the proliferation of competing groups, each convinced of its own superiority, preferring zero sum games where 'the other' must lose for 'us' to win. If we do not learn from history, we are surely destined to repeat it.
> 
> I may have said that before!


However hard we try to take nature out of other species, we can't. Why think we can take nature out of the human species? If we've been tribal since the year dot, it's inbuilt for survival, so how about recognise and embrace it, but as peaceful rather than warring tribes? Smaller countries with small communities seemingly do well. Their people suffer fewer issues with mental health and still manage to trade and come together when needed. Trying to make a Europe to compete with America, China and Russia seems to me to be going down the wrong path. It hasn't worked before, I don't see why it would work now. Which history are we repeating?


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Like a lot of stuff, maybe some are getting their knickers in a twist about impending doom *without fully understanding what is going on behind the scenes* (me included). Theresa May may be utterly useless, the government and shadow governments are utterly useless and the EU is utterly intransigent but we'll survive *and prosper* despite this.


As it happens, I do have some behind the scenes knowledge in certain critical sectors. Not permitted to talk about specifics, though, sorry. I don't think anyone fully understands what is going on across the board, exacerbated because two years down the line confusion yet reigns, literally nothing has been decided on, and you can't properly prepare for an undefined event.

Suffice to say the second bolded bit is highly unlikely for the greater part of the population in a Leave scenario, particularly in a No Deal scenario.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> For me, and my modest lifestyle, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It has given me the opportunity, like no other country on earth, to lead a comfortable and free existence that I don't think any other country could give me. I'm not rich (quite the opposite), I wasn't given a privileged upbringing and have had health issues in the past. But we are free despite all of your cries of "fascists" and "Hitler" etc. You insult people who have in the past, and still do today, suffer from true fascism.


You do know Hitler came to power democratically elected. He didn't enter power on a promise of war and mass genocide. He was elected on a promise of making Germany great again.

The lessons from history should never be ignored, nor taken for granted with the belief what happened in the past could not happen again.

Never actually said it will happen, but it _could. 
_
As for your accusations of me insulting people who have lived through brutal regimes I would be asking why some German-born Jewish people evacuated during WWII to the UK are now applying for German passports because of Brexit, something unthinkable only four years ago.

Yes, you have a point perhaps. I never lived through it.

Perhaps you should speak to people like them.

I take nothing for granted.


----------



## KittenKong

Good one from Jack Dart:

"Take the Iraq War. In 2003, YouGov conducted 21 polls asking people if they thought intervention in Iraq was right or wrong. On average, 54% of voters influenced by a print and broadcast media that was overwhelmingly behind UK military involvement, believed war to be the right course. 
"The US-led invasion promptly followed. Saddam Hussein's alleged WMDs never materialised and the country descended into protracted and bloody anarchy - a war from which Britain took years to extract itself.
"Twelve years later, YouGov returned and asked the public if they thought, on reflection, that the invasion of Iraq had been a good idea. By then just 26% said it had - but more interestingly only 37% recalled believing it had been the right course at the time.
"Perhaps, over the space of a decade, some people had genuinely forgotten their opinions at the time. More likely, given the outcome - most were simply too ashamed to admit that they had fallen for such nebulous disinformation in the first place."

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/03/20/when-will-brexiters-accept-they-were-conned/


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> However hard we try to take nature out of other species, we can't. Why think we can take nature out of the human species? If we've been tribal since the year dot, it's inbuilt for survival, so how about recognise and embrace it, but as peaceful rather than warring tribes? Smaller countries with small communities seemingly do well. Their people suffer fewer issues with mental health and still manage to trade and come together when needed. Trying to make a Europe to compete with America, China and Russia seems to me to be going down the wrong path. It hasn't worked before, I don't see why it would work now. Which history are we repeating?


No, we can't take nature out of the human species, but we can recognise a reaction based on a redundant instinct and use our intellect to counter it. Those like Mark Francois who wants to leave the EU because he doesn't like the Germans is signally failing to do that and comes across to me as someone totally unfit to be an MP in the modern world.

I don't want a Europe to compete with anyone; I want one to join and work with America, China, Russia and all the rest. I want countries amalgamated into a whole the same way as have been England's counties. (It won't be in my lifetime, but I plan long term! )


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> You do know Hitler came to power democratically elected. He didn't enter power on a promise of war and mass genocide. He was elected on a promise of making Germany great again.
> 
> The lessons from history should never be ignored, nor taken for granted with the belief what happened in the past could not happen again.
> 
> Never actually said it will happen, but it _could.
> _
> As for your accusations of me insulting people who have lived through brutal regimes* I would be asking why some German-born Jewish people evacuated during WWII to the UK are now applying for German passports because of Brexit,* something unthinkable only four years ago.
> 
> Yes, you have a point perhaps. I never lived through it.
> 
> Perhaps you should speak to people like them.
> 
> I take nothing for granted.


I can only find a couple of articles from the Guardian to report this -

1. Descendants of Jewish refugees seek German citizenship after Brexit vote
2. British relatives of Nazi-era refugees seek German passports before Brexit

So it is the descendants, not German-Jewish WW2 evacuees that we gave sanctuary to that are applying. That's a very big difference. These people have been officially reassured that their status is secure in the UK, though.

Brexit: General information for German citizens living in the United Kingdom
_
"Under this agreement, there will be comprehensive protection of the rights of our EU citizens who live in the UK and the rights of UK citizens who live in the EU;* they can continue to live, work, study and enjoy social security protection. The UK's financial obligations are also laid down in the agreement."*_


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> No, we can't take nature out of the human species, but we can recognise a reaction based on a redundant instinct and use our intellect to counter it. Those like Mark Francois who wants to leave the EU because he doesn't like the Germans is signally failing to do that and comes across to me as someone totally unfit to be an MP in the modern world.
> 
> I don't want a Europe to compete with anyone; I want one to join and work with America, China, Russia and all the rest. I want countries amalgamated into a whole the same way as have been England's counties. (It won't be in my lifetime, but I plan long term! )


I don't think it will or should happen. I used to think so, the romantic ideal of no countries as per John Lennon. More and more though we are finding that for human health it's not a good thing.

England's counties aren't exactly amalgamated either. They too fight for resources for their area and are quite separate in many ways, as are Wales and Scotland. I don't think you're right. Someone who doesn't like the Germans probably doesn't like Londoners, or maybe the Welsh too and dislikes opposing football teams and his neighbours.

If it's that far ingrained, it's not going anywhere and we need to work with, not against it imo. I don't want Europe in the hands of the Eu to compete either, but that's exactly what it is doing and what it's set up to do. A bigger group set up to compete against other large groups.

As for intellect. Didn't someone say "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe."?

Something else we need to take into account?


----------



## JANICE199

*I have just been watching some of pmqt, and i can't believe the rubbish that comes out of TM's mouth. I've said this for a long time, i can see this whole mess landing at labours door. *


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I don't think it will or should happen. I used to think so, the romantic ideal of no countries as per John Lennon. More and more though we are finding that for human health it's not a good thing.
> 
> England's counties aren't exactly amalgamated either. They too fight for resources for their area and are quite separate in many ways, as are Wales and Scotland. I don't think you're right. Someone who doesn't like the Germans probably doesn't like Londoners, or maybe the Welsh too and dislikes opposing football teams and his neighbours.
> 
> If it's that far ingrained, it's not going anywhere and we need to work with, not against it imo. I don't want Europe in the hands of the Eu to compete either, but that's exactly what it is doing and what it's set up to do. A bigger group set up to compete against other large groups.
> 
> As for intellect. Didn't someone say "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe."?
> 
> Something else we need to take into account?


A very valid opinion, of course.

I would only say that the counties do their fighting with words in committee rooms, and so, for 70 years, do the members of the EU. It's a work in progress, but despite all its faults that's not a bad start.


----------



## Arnie83

JANICE199 said:


> *I have just been watching some of pmqt, and i can't believe the rubbish that comes out of TM's mouth. I've said this for a long time, i can see this whole mess landing at labours door. *


Well that's part of Plan B, of course.

Let's wait and see.


----------



## Tiggers

No party is capable of dealing with this disgusting mess now. The people voted to leave in 2016. All that we have seen is the destruction of democracy and the people of this nation betrayed.


----------



## JANICE199

Tiggers said:


> No party is capable of dealing with this disgusting mess now. The people voted to leave in 2016. All that we have seen is the destruction of democracy and the people of this nation betrayed.


*I believe labour can get us through this if JC is the leader. Time will tell *


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe labour can get us through this if JC is the leader. Time will tell *


Only if he insists on putting it to the people.

So far, he appears to have backtracked on that again now May has given him an olive branch.

May said delivering Brexit is what they both agree on. Corbyn has not denied this.

Says it all about English politics doesn't it.

We'll just have to wait and see if Corbyn sells his supporters down the river by succumbing to May's plan.

I don't feel optimistic to tell you the truth.

It would ruin the Labour Party irreparably just as the ConDem coalition finished the Lib Dems.


----------



## noushka05

I really hope he doesn't fall into the trap. https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/ther...-trying-to-drag-corbyn-down-with-her-9102013/


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I really hope he doesn't fall into the trap. https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/ther...-trying-to-drag-corbyn-down-with-her-9102013/


Seems many Tories are unhappy with May too.
Hopefully it will backfire and destroy the Tory party too.


----------



## KittenKong

"We know what we voted for"....


----------



## emmaviolet

KittenKong said:


> "We know what we voted for"....
> 
> View attachment 399182


This is not where I live, however I've overheard and seen this happen multiple times.
One time being an elderly man on a bus to a black boy coming home from school. He told him after Brexit he'd be sent back to where he came from, to which the boy replied 'what, to Walthamstow?' Passengers and his friends all laughed, and quite rightly, the old racist was humiliated.


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *I believe labour can get us through this if JC is the leader. Time will tell *


Why do you think this. ?


----------



## Arnie83

Tiggers said:


> No party is capable of dealing with this disgusting mess now. *The people voted to leave in 2016. All that we have seen is the destruction of democracy and the people of this nation betrayed.*


I agree that the conduct of the referendum was a heavy blow to democracy in the UK, but I don't think those who wanted to leave will be betrayed because I think we will eventually leave the EU just as they voted.


----------



## KittenKong

EDIT- posted the wrong quote.
In response to Emma's post #12079

I liked this.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=799741417074166&id=440678272980484


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

Good.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> EDIT- posted the wrong quote.
> In response to Emma's post #12079
> 
> I liked this.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=799741417074166&id=440678272980484
> 
> View attachment 399187


What do you like about that video and, as someone who voted to leave the EU, what would you like me to take from it? I find it ironic that you "like" it. It's horrible.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Good.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay
> 
> View attachment 399190


What good can come of it to suit what you want to happen with Brexit? Just curious as the only thing no delay will mean is the further impending doom of a no deal brexit or TM's deal


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> What do you like about that video and, as someone who voted to leave the EU, what would you like me to take from it? I find it ironic that you "like" it. It's horrible.


I like it as the idiot on the train was left humiliated. Served him right.

It's acting of course, but sadly this is not uncommon in Brexit Britain. The idiots believe it's given them a mandate to racially abuse people.

That of course is not funny.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> EDIT- posted the wrong quote.
> In response to Emma's post #12079
> 
> I liked this.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=799741417074166&id=440678272980484
> 
> View attachment 399187


You've posted this before


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Good.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-refuse-may-appeal-for-further-brexit-delay
> 
> View attachment 399190


They're not dumb either, and can see the game she's trying to play.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tiggers said:


> No party is capable of dealing with this disgusting mess now. The people voted to leave in 2016. All that we have seen is the destruction of democracy and the people of this nation betrayed.


What if people who voted for Brexit is Brexit now realised what they voted for?Elections take part every few years not every generation because people can change mind seeing what was promised and what is done!!!


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> What good can come of it to suit what you want to happen with Brexit? Just curious as the only thing no delay will mean is the further impending doom of a no deal brexit or TM's deal


It means that to avoid a No Deal she will have to ask - and she would be granted - a much longer delay, quite possibly at the insistence of the Commons. The idea of a short one is intended to do nothing more than get her already thrice rejected deal through.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> What if people who voted for Brexit is Brexit now realised what they voted for?Elections take part every few years not every generation because people can change mind seeing what was promised and what is done!!!


In what way? When voting to leave the EU I think many did on the previso that it would be done with some common decency not this mockery of a Prime minister


----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> In what way? When voting to leave the EU I think many did on the previso that it would be done with some common decency not this mockery of a Prime minister


Reality check. Yes, her red lines made compromise impossible.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Reality check. Yes, her red lines made compromise impossible.


Her red lines made _delivery_ impossible.

No Single Market and No Customs Union means you have to have a border in Ireland. And No different treatment of Northern Ireland puts the last nail in the coffin!

ETA: Changed 'red lies' to 'red lines'. Freudian slip!


----------



## MilleD

Cool, my first ever person ignored. Who said this thread was pointless?


----------



## Happy Paws2

noushka05 said:


>


I'd say she really is a Cow, but that's a insult to a beautiful animal.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Cool, my first ever person ignored. Who said this thread was pointless?


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws said:


> I'd say she really is a Cow, but that's a insult to a beautiful animal.


Wicked witch more like.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh the humiliation! May will never agree to that.

Can't see these talks going very far.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...is-pushing-uk-towards-softer-brexit-live-news


----------



## Tiggers

Just get us out of the EU and quickly.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Seumus Milne now involved in the future of the UK. That is genuinely terrifying.

Corbyn and May agree to more talks after 'constructive' first day

"accompanied Corbyn at the meeting, together with Labour's chief whip, Nick Brown, and strategy and communications director *Seumas Milne*"


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tiggers said:


> Just get us out of the EU and quickly.


At what cost???


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Seumus Milne now involved in the future of the UK. That is genuinely terrifying.
> 
> Corbyn and May agree to more talks after 'constructive' first day
> 
> "accompanied Corbyn at the meeting, together with Labour's chief whip, Nick Brown, and strategy and communications director *Seumas Milne*"


And you don't think Theresa May and the far right aren't terrifying? I do.

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for extremism either too right or left. I'm probably only slightly to the left of Tony Blair politically with my ideal politician being Nicola Sturgeon.

But that's Brexit, something only the far right, and far left, support. Why do you think John Major, David Lammy and Nicola Sturgeon don't back it? They are _moderate _politicians.

Which is why I'll never support it under any circumstances.

Seumas Milne- Wikipedia for anyone interested:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index....t&ns0=1&searchToken=77rj94iogzc7cef1447s6pkb3


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> And you don't think Theresa May and the far right aren't terrifying? I do.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have no time for extremism either too right or left. I'm probably only slightly to the left of Tony Blair politically with my ideal politician being Nicola Sturgeon.
> 
> But that's Brexit, something only the far right, and far left, support. Why do you think John Major, David Lammy and Nicola Sturgeon don't back it? They are _moderate _politicians.
> 
> Which is why I'll never support it under any circumstances.
> 
> Seumas Milne- Wikipedia for anyone interested:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index....t&ns0=1&searchToken=77rj94iogzc7cef1447s6pkb3


Same here, slightly to the left, but I lived under communism so extreme left is just as horrific as far right.
Regime is regime. During the war Communists were just as bad as Gestapo. Stalin murdered more people than Hitler. Add Mao, look at North Korea.
Tyranny on both ends.

Strong and stable country needs middle of the way parties in power.
Nicola for PM!!!
I like Canadian PM too.


----------



## Arnie83

Tiggers said:


> Just get us out of the EU and quickly.


Isn't it better to do it properly than to do it quickly? What's the hurry?


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> Strong and stable country needs middle of the way parties in power.
> Nicola for PM!!!


I like Ian Blackford as well.


----------



## kimthecat

Latest news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717
MPs have voted by a majority of one to force the prime minister to ask for an extension to the Brexit process, in a bid to avoid any no-deal scenario.

The bill, put forward by Labour's Yvette Cooper, was passed by the Commons in just one day.

However, it will need to be approved by the Lords before it becomes law. It would also still be for the EU to decide whether to grant any extension.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Latest news
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717
> MPs have voted by a majority of one to force the prime minister to ask for an extension to the Brexit process, in a bid to avoid any no-deal scenario.
> 
> The bill, put forward by Labour's Yvette Cooper, was passed by the Commons in just one day.
> 
> However, it will need to be approved by the Lords before it becomes law. It would also still be for the EU to decide whether to grant any extension.


Sensible.

I must say the ever more frantic calls that we should 'just get on with it' and 'leave on WTO terms' points very much towards a desire for Brexit for Brexit's sake, rather than for any tangible benefit to the country or its people.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Seumus Milne now involved in the future of the UK. That is genuinely terrifying.
> 
> Corbyn and May agree to more talks after 'constructive' first day
> 
> "accompanied Corbyn at the meeting, together with Labour's chief whip, Nick Brown, and strategy and communications director *Seumas Milne*"





KittenKong said:


> And you don't think Theresa May and the far right aren't terrifying? I do.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have no time for extremism either too right or left. I'm probably only slightly to the left of Tony Blair politically with my ideal politician being Nicola Sturgeon.
> 
> But that's Brexit, something only the far right, and far left, support. Why do you think John Major, David Lammy and Nicola Sturgeon don't back it? They are _moderate _politicians.
> 
> Which is why I'll never support it under any circumstances.
> 
> Seumas Milne- Wikipedia for anyone interested:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index....t&ns0=1&searchToken=77rj94iogzc7cef1447s6pkb3





cheekyscrip said:


> Same here, slightly to the left, but I lived under communism so extreme left is just as horrific as far right.
> Regime is regime. During the war Communists were just as bad as Gestapo. Stalin murdered more people than Hitler. Add Mao, look at North Korea.
> Tyranny on both ends.
> 
> Strong and stable country needs middle of the way parties in power.
> Nicola for PM!!!
> I like Canadian PM too.


Corbyn isn't an extremist. Hes a bog standard social democrat like you find in Scandinavian countries. No surprise that people on the right have fallen the smears but really saddened that people with more moderate views have too. The media & neoliberal politicians have done a great job delegitimising a democratically leader. This is terrible for democracy & extremely dangerous for Corbyns safety. I would never be surprised if, like Jo Cox, he was assassinated too. There has already been one foiled plot to kill him.

Journalist Peter Oborne is a lifelong tory, one of the few conservatives I respect as he actually has principles.

*Peter Oborne*‏ @OborneTweets Feb 26
_Everyone concerned about truth and decency in British public life ought to read this article by David Hearst about Jeremy Corbyn's adviser Seamus Milne: 
_
*The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism*
https://www.middleeasteye.net/users/david-hearst
*False accusations by yesterday's spooks against Milne and Corbyn are a direct attempt to stop a popular and democratically elected leader from becoming prime minister*

_https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/truth-about-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-and-new-mccarthyism_


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Why do you think this. ?


*Because i believe he has the people's interest at heart, and he's genuine. *


----------



## noushka05




----------



## samuelsmiles3

noushka05 said:


> Corbyn isn't an extremist. Hes a bog standard social democrat like you find in Scandinavian countries. No surprise that people on the right have fallen the smears but really saddened that people with more moderate views have too. The media & neoliberal politicians have done a great job delegitimising a democratically leader. This is terrible for democracy & extremely dangerous for Corbyns safety. I would never be surprised if, like Jo Cox, he was assassinated too. There has already been one foiled plot to kill him.
> 
> Journalist Peter Oborne is a lifelong tory, one of the few conservatives I respect as he actually has principles.
> 
> *Peter Oborne*‏ @OborneTweets Feb 26
> _Everyone concerned about truth and decency in British public life ought to read this article by David Hearst about Jeremy Corbyn's adviser Seamus Milne:
> _
> *The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism*
> *False accusations by yesterday's spooks against Milne and Corbyn are a direct attempt to stop a popular and democratically elected leader from becoming prime minister*
> 
> _https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/truth-about-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-and-new-mccarthyism_


Why is it that when anyone criticizes the far left you call it a smear campaign? That is what Seumus Milne is. He is far, far to the left. Being a multi millionaire 'socialist' he is someone who has benefited hugely from a capitalist society. I find this confusing. He's obviously not distributing his wealth with fairness, is he?

He has repeatedly championed the socialist Venezuela and Hugo Chavez and now Maduro - socialists that have led the country to utter economic disaster (get ready for the USA smears):Hilarious Hugo Chavez, the socialist whose daughter became the richest woman in Venezuela.


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *Because i believe he has the people's interest at heart, and he's genuine. *


Oh I see . I thought you meant he had a plan. 

Having alleged qualities doesn't mean he can solve Brexit. 
He waffled about a second referendum and only promised it in an election after pressure from his Party and because he wants to be PM. 
I think labour would win the next GE despite him being leader because the Tories have been in power for years and people are sick of them and want a change , that always happens.


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> He has repeatedly championed the socialist Venezuela and Hugo Chavez and now Maduro - socialists that have led the country to utter economic disaster (get ready for the USA smears):Hilarious Hugo Chavez, the socialist whose daughter became the richest woman in Venezuela.


So did Corbyn . he referred to him as a dear comrade.


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Oh I see . I thought you meant he had a plan.
> 
> Having alleged qualities doesn't mean he can solve Brexit.
> He waffled about a second referendum and only promised it in an election after pressure from his Party and because he wants to be PM.
> I think labour would win the next GE despite him being leader because the Tories have been in power for years and people are sick of them and want a change , that always happens.


*To be fair, we have had 2 years of TM wafffeling on and she's still doing so. Time to give JC a chance to show what he can do.*


----------



## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, we have had 2 years of TM wafffeling on and she's still doing so. Time to give JC a chance to show what he can do.*


 I think only the original JC can solve this. No mortal can


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Latest news
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717
> MPs have voted by a majority of one to force the prime minister to ask for an extension to the Brexit process, in a bid to avoid any no-deal scenario.
> 
> The bill, put forward by Labour's Yvette Cooper, was passed by the Commons in just one day.
> 
> However, it will need to be approved by the Lords before it becomes law. It would also still be for the EU to decide whether to grant any extension.


It passed by one vote . Fiona Onasanya MP attended the Common to vote wearing an electronic tag . Was she breaking her bail conditions?
Wonder if that would render the vote void?

Lying to the police and in court under oath , oh dearie me.

One for KK. Just in case you beleive all Brexiteers are white men .

 *Gagan Singh ☬*‏ @*DerbySingh* 2h2 hours ago

Message to the @*UKHouseofLords* Hold your nerve. Do not pass the #*CooperBill* We the 17.4 are asking you to be our voice. We expect you to deliver the will of the people and democracy. We will be watching! #*Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Why is it that when anyone criticizes the far left you call it a smear campaign? That is what Seumus Milne is. He is far, far to the left. Being a multi millionaire 'socialist' he is someone who has benefited hugely from a capitalist society. I find this confusing. He's obviously not distributing his wealth with fairness, is he?
> 
> He has repeatedly championed the socialist Venezuela and Hugo Chavez and now Maduro - socialists that have led the country to utter economic disaster (get ready for the USA smears):Hilarious Hugo Chavez, the socialist whose daughter became the richest woman in Venezuela.


I wouldn't worry if I were you as, as long as Corbyn remains Labour leader Labour will never be elected. Sadly, this would apply to any Labour leader, even if David Milliband returned, unless he did a deal with Murdoch. The Media have so much influence over floating voters they get to decide who wins.

Still, not getting her own way, it must be humiliating for Theresa May to find herself in the company of political opposites with Milne in the room when she was unable to bribe her far right crackpots the DUP into backing her deal.

I expect and hope these talks quickly break down. May is clearly hoping she can persuade them to back her deal without compromise.

But any compromise in favour of Corbyn and vice versa will be seen as a sell out on either side.

I'm bloody furious Corbyn agreed to this in the first place. I'd rather he campaigned for a Public Enquiry into the criminal activity utilised during the Leave campaign and/or at least campaign for a PV that was agreed at the last Labour conference.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Corbyn isn't an extremist. Hes a bog standard social democrat like you find in Scandinavian countries. No surprise that people on the right have fallen the smears but really saddened that people with more moderate views have too. The media & neoliberal politicians have done a great job delegitimising a democratically leader. This is terrible for democracy & extremely dangerous for Corbyns safety. I would never be surprised if, like Jo Cox, he was assassinated too. There has already been one foiled plot to kill him.
> 
> Journalist Peter Oborne is a lifelong tory, one of the few conservatives I respect as he actually has principles.
> 
> *Peter Oborne*‏ @OborneTweets Feb 26
> _Everyone concerned about truth and decency in British public life ought to read this article by David Hearst about Jeremy Corbyn's adviser Seamus Milne:
> _
> *The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism*
> *False accusations by yesterday's spooks against Milne and Corbyn are a direct attempt to stop a popular and democratically elected leader from becoming prime minister*
> 
> _https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/truth-about-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-and-new-mccarthyism_


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Why is it that when anyone criticizes the far left you call it a smear campaign? That is what Seumus Milne is. He is far, far to the left. Being a multi millionaire 'socialist' he is someone who has benefited hugely from a capitalist society. I find this confusing. He's obviously not distributing his wealth with fairness, is he?
> 
> He has repeatedly championed the socialist Venezuela and Hugo Chavez and now Maduro - socialists that have led the country to utter economic disaster (get ready for the USA smears):Hilarious Hugo Chavez, the socialist whose daughter became the richest woman in Venezuela.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-m...byns-oz-a-virulently-anti-israel-spin-doctor/

*The man behind the curtain in Corbyn's Oz: A virulently anti-Israel spin doctor*

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/

A speech he made in 1975


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Why is it that when anyone criticizes the far left you call it a smear campaign? That is what Seumus Milne is. He is far, far to the left. Being a multi millionaire 'socialist' he is someone who has benefited hugely from a capitalist society. I find this confusing. He's obviously not distributing his wealth with fairness, is he?
> 
> He has repeatedly championed the socialist Venezuela and Hugo Chavez and now Maduro - socialists that have led the country to utter economic disaster (get ready for the USA smears):Hilarious Hugo Chavez, the socialist whose daughter became the richest woman in Venezuela.


 Valid criticism & a smear campaign against someone are two very different things. What Milne says about neoliberalism in the video is correct, and I doubt he predicted a megalomaniac would emerge in Venezuela. US sanctions & interference aren't smears, its the truth, but this still doesn't excuse the tyranny of Maduro. Its quite possible to condemn both the USA AND Maduro. FYI Venezuela's economy is largely dependent on oil . Others on the left (Naomi Klein for example) have been critical of Venezuelas petro-populism.

And I have said before, people on the left who thought its leaders would bring social justice to the people should speak out and condemn what is happening in Venezuela now. As Bernie Sanders has done.

So back to the point in hand. This is what the smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn has done.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Bernie Sanders? The socialist who owns three homes, one in the delightful setting of Vermont Lake? (Just for nice vacations, you understand.) The same Bernie Sanders who spent $300,000 on private jets during his US election campaign.? (environmental champion?)

Millionaire socialist, Bernie Sanders?

I'm missing something, I think?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 399257


Reaction to this disgusting act.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Bernie Sanders? The socialist who owns three homes, one in the delightful setting of Vermont Lake? (Just for nice vacations, you understand.) The same Bernie Sanders who spent $300,000 on private jets during his US election campaign.? (environmental champion?)
> 
> Millionaire socialist, Bernie Sanders?
> 
> I'm missing something, I think?


Even if all this is true, what exactly has it got to do with him condemning Maduro? Sod all!

Yes, your deliberately missing the point


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Corbyn isn't an extremist. Hes a bog standard social democrat like you find in Scandinavian countries. No surprise that people on the right have fallen the smears but really saddened that people with more moderate views have too. The media & neoliberal politicians have done a great job delegitimising a democratically leader. This is terrible for democracy & extremely dangerous for Corbyns safety. I would never be surprised if, like Jo Cox, he was assassinated too. There has already been one foiled plot to kill him.
> 
> Journalist Peter Oborne is a lifelong tory, one of the few conservatives I respect as he actually has principles.
> 
> *Peter Oborne*‏ @OborneTweets Feb 26
> _Everyone concerned about truth and decency in British public life ought to read this article by David Hearst about Jeremy Corbyn's adviser Seamus Milne:
> _
> *The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism*
> *False accusations by yesterday's spooks against Milne and Corbyn are a direct attempt to stop a popular and democratically elected leader from becoming prime minister
> *
> _*https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/truth-about-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-and-new-mccarthyism*_


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Eye

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/new-london-connection-to-islamists-1.648408

*New London connection to Islamists*

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-national-uae/


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Bernie Sanders? The socialist who owns three homes, one in the delightful setting of Vermont Lake? (Just for nice vacations, you understand.) The same Bernie Sanders who spent $300,000 on private jets during his US election campaign.? (environmental champion?)
> 
> Millionaire socialist, Bernie Sanders?
> 
> I'm missing something, I think?


Guess you can be rich yet still campaign for better living standards for all. Take Obama's attempt at introducing Obama care for example. Never got off the ground yet Trump, another mega rich person, trumped it into history.

Conversely, the likes of JR-M want to get richer at the expense of the rest of us. He said he thought Foodbanks were "Uplifting". I call it disgusting in a wealthy economy such as the UK.

Big difference!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I`m having a chuckle this morning at reports the Tories are furious with Theresa May and looking at ways they can change the rules in order to have another vote of no confidence in her. They had a vote less than four months ago in which 63% of them gave her their support, The Will of the Conservative Party was heard and must be respected. They can not change their mind as that is very undemocratic and not respecting The Will of the Conservative Party.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-m...byns-oz-a-virulently-anti-israel-spin-doctor/
> 
> *The man behind the curtain in Corbyn's Oz: A virulently anti-Israel spin doctor*
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
> 
> A speech he made in 1975


1975 hell, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, in 44 years people change and so do attitudes, I was 27 then now at 71 I'm different person, seeing life as you get older, you see the world in a new and worrying light. I dread what the PM is going to do.


----------



## Jesthar

Summary of Brexit by the hubby of a friend of mine - it's gone a bit viral... 

"Imagine you knew someone who had slipped into a coma three years ago and now they woke up and asked “what have I missed”? Where would you even begin to summarise what has happened?

Well, remember David Cameron – the leader with a dead pig fetish? To suck up to his old school friends he called a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU.

During the campaign, Boris Johnson stood in front of a bus (sadly not while it was moving) to tell us how much better off the NHS would be if we left the EU.

Experts in the fields of health, economics, business and security said leaving the EU was a really bad idea. Michael Gove told us we had had enough of experts.

Millionaire man-of-the-people Nigel Farage stood in front of a poster showing refugees from Syria – a country the UK had bombed – and used it as an argument for us leaving Europe. He denied it was designed to stir up racial hatred.

MP Jo Cox was shot dead by a white supremacist.

On the night of the referendum Nigel Farage admitted his campaign had probably lost but said that if the result was something like 52% to 48 it would be “unfinished business by a long way”. His campaign won by 52% to 48. Farage declared it was decisive.

Having spent his whole career repeating that we would be better off out of the EU (while earning money from the EU), Farage then claimed “I never said we would be better off out of the EU” before applying for a German passport.

David Cameron, the man who started the process, promptly did the greatest disappearing act since Lord Lucan and hasn’t been seen since.

Everyone who campaigned for us to leave the EU, rather than put forward a coherent plan, suddenly went very quiet. The task of taking us out of the EU was given to a person who had voted for us to remain.

Boris Johnson, a man who has made a career out of insulting foreigners, was made Foreign Secretary. He also revealed that he had made that whole NHS thing up.

Michael Gove, the man who said we had had enough of experts, was put in charge of protecting our environment.

Rather than draw up a plan for exiting the EU before triggering the process, Theresa May triggered the process without any idea of how to do it. The EU was due to implement tax-avoidance laws targeting the super-rich on 1st April 2019 so it was imperative that Britain left the EU on 29th March 2019.

Concerned that she didn’t have a large enough majority to push Brexit through, Theresa May called a general election and lost the majority that she already had. She was forced to use to taxpayer’s money to bribe some Protestant fundamentalists in order to stay in power.

It was revealed that Facebook had been selling people’s personal details to some shady companies behind the Leave Campaign. It was also revealed that the Leave Campaign broke the law but this didn’t matter because the result was the “will of the people”.

The same shady companies admitted that the Brexit campaign had been used as a “petri-dish for the Trump campaign” to see what they could get away with. Donald Trump was promptly elected as US president. The Trump campaign is currently under investigation for alleged Russian interference.

In the UK, the Leave Campaign had received the biggest political donation in history from a man who apparently had no money but was married to a suspected Russian spy. Still, “will of the people” and all that.

The man in charge of negotiating our exit from the EU did nothing for nearly two years and then resigned. His replacement was so stunned by the revelation that goods crossed the English Channel by boat that he also resigned.

In an attempt to mitigate the potential loss of sea-borne freight, the Transport Minister awarded a shipping contract to a company with no ships (and whose terms and conditions had been copied and pasted from a pizza delivery firm).

Theresa May, having lost her majority and been found in contempt of parliament but somehow still in charge, put forward a vote on a Brexit deal. It lost by 68% to 32 so she tried again. It lost by 62% to 38. She is attempting to try a third time. Einstein once said that “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results” but they ignore him because he was foreign.

There were calls for a “people’s vote” on the process but Theresa May, who keeps putting forward the same vote on repeat, said that giving the electorate a say would be “undemocratic”.

So that’s where we are.

And still, in all that time, the thing they would probably find hardest to believe is that England reached the semi-finals of the World Cup."


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> 1975 hell, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, in 44 years people change and so do attitudes, I was 27 then now at 71 I'm different person, seeing life as you get older, you see the world in a new and worrying light. I dread what the PM is going to do.


Had you read the newspaper article thoroughly you'd have seen a video of him giving a similar speech in 2012, so unlike you and me he hasn't altered his views one jot!

This is the speech ....


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Summary of Brexit by the hubby of a friend of mine - it's gone a bit viral...
> 
> "Imagine you knew someone who had slipped into a coma three years ago and now they woke up and asked "what have I missed"? Where would you even begin to summarise what has happened?
> 
> Well, remember David Cameron - the leader with a dead pig fetish? To suck up to his old school friends he called a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.
> 
> During the campaign, Boris Johnson stood in front of a bus (sadly not while it was moving) to tell us how much better off the NHS would be if we left the EU.
> 
> Experts in the fields of health, economics, business and security said leaving the EU was a really bad idea. Michael Gove told us we had had enough of experts.
> 
> Millionaire man-of-the-people Nigel Farage stood in front of a poster showing refugees from Syria - a country the UK had bombed - and used it as an argument for us leaving Europe. He denied it was designed to stir up racial hatred.
> 
> MP Jo Cox was shot dead by a white supremacist.
> 
> On the night of the referendum Nigel Farage admitted his campaign had probably lost but said that if the result was something like 52% to 48 it would be "unfinished business by a long way". His campaign won by 52% to 48. Farage declared it was decisive.
> 
> Having spent his whole career repeating that we would be better off out of the EU (while earning money from the EU), Farage then claimed "I never said we would be better off out of the EU" before applying for a German passport.
> 
> David Cameron, the man who started the process, promptly did the greatest disappearing act since Lord Lucan and hasn't been seen since.
> 
> Everyone who campaigned for us to leave the EU, rather than put forward a coherent plan, suddenly went very quiet. The task of taking us out of the EU was given to a person who had voted for us to remain.
> 
> Boris Johnson, a man who has made a career out of insulting foreigners, was made Foreign Secretary. He also revealed that he had made that whole NHS thing up.
> 
> Michael Gove, the man who said we had had enough of experts, was put in charge of protecting our environment.
> 
> Rather than draw up a plan for exiting the EU before triggering the process, Theresa May triggered the process without any idea of how to do it. The EU was due to implement tax-avoidance laws targeting the super-rich on 1st April 2019 so it was imperative that Britain left the EU on 29th March 2019.
> 
> Concerned that she didn't have a large enough majority to push Brexit through, Theresa May called a general election and lost the majority that she already had. She was forced to use to taxpayer's money to bribe some Protestant fundamentalists in order to stay in power.
> 
> It was revealed that Facebook had been selling people's personal details to some shady companies behind the Leave Campaign. It was also revealed that the Leave Campaign broke the law but this didn't matter because the result was the "will of the people".
> 
> The same shady companies admitted that the Brexit campaign had been used as a "petri-dish for the Trump campaign" to see what they could get away with. Donald Trump was promptly elected as US president. The Trump campaign is currently under investigation for alleged Russian interference.
> 
> In the UK, the Leave Campaign had received the biggest political donation in history from a man who apparently had no money but was married to a suspected Russian spy. Still, "will of the people" and all that.
> 
> The man in charge of negotiating our exit from the EU did nothing for nearly two years and then resigned. His replacement was so stunned by the revelation that goods crossed the English Channel by boat that he also resigned.
> 
> In an attempt to mitigate the potential loss of sea-borne freight, the Transport Minister awarded a shipping contract to a company with no ships (and whose terms and conditions had been copied and pasted from a pizza delivery firm).
> 
> Theresa May, having lost her majority and been found in contempt of parliament but somehow still in charge, put forward a vote on a Brexit deal. It lost by 68% to 32 so she tried again. It lost by 62% to 38. She is attempting to try a third time. Einstein once said that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" but they ignore him because he was foreign.
> 
> There were calls for a "people's vote" on the process but Theresa May, who keeps putting forward the same vote on repeat, said that giving the electorate a say would be "undemocratic".
> 
> So that's where we are.
> 
> And still, in all that time, the thing they would probably find hardest to believe is that England reached the semi-finals of the World Cup."


Brilliant analysis Jesthar.


----------



## Elles

“Well, remember David Cameron – the leader with a dead pig fetish? To suck up to his old school friends he called a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU.”

That isn’t quite so I believe. Philip Hammond firstly asked parliament and MPs from all parties if they agreed to hold a referendum on membership of the Eu. These people who had no plan or clue how to leave the Eu, many in fact thought it a really bad idea to do so, agreed to his request and are still in charge. 

I haven’t forgiven them. They should have said, ‘ok, but what’s the plan if the people vote to leave?’. They didn’t, but shuffle about blaming the Tories and hoping no one remembers.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant analysis *Jester*.


Jesthar


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> He said he thought Foodbanks were "Uplifting"


I take your point; but I rather thought that what he meant was that it was a sign of a caring society that foodbanks existed (ie that people would organise a system where one could donate, rather than bin, unwanted food). I don't find it ''uplifting'', exactly, but do think it's a scandal that so much food is wasted (supermarkets are now getting the message, but not long ago they used to have skips full of edible food, the only thing wrong with it being the date on the packaging).


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Eye
> 
> https://www.thenational.ae/uae/new-london-connection-to-islamists-1.648408
> 
> *New London connection to Islamists*
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-national-uae/


I don't know Hearst, but I know Peter Oborne. And as I said, he is one of the few tories with principles and honesty and I suspect he must know Hearst and he agrees with him. And as I'm on the opposite political end of the spectrum I don't always agree with Obornes opinion but I respect him because he speaks from a honest position.



Magyarmum said:


> Had you read the newspaper article thoroughly you'd have seen a video of him giving a similar speech in 2012, so unlike you and me he hasn't altered his views one jot!
> 
> This is the speech ....


I'm struggling to hear what hes saying, but isnt he just condemning Israel for the atrocities inflicted on the Palestinians? If so. What is wrong with that?

.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I take your point; but I rather thought that what he meant was that it was a sign of a caring society that foodbanks existed (ie that people would organise a system where one could donate, rather than bin, unwanted food). I don't find it ''uplifting'', exactly, but do think it's a scandal that so much food is wasted (supermarkets are now getting the message, but not long ago they used to have skips full of edible food, the only thing wrong with it being the date on the packaging).


If he cared he would do something about the hardship and poverty as a result of UC and the bedroom tax.

Seeing that he hasn't at least spoken out about this speaks volumes.


----------



## noushka05

Led by Donkeys are absolute legends.

*Led By Donkeys projection onto the White Cliffs of Dover*

The brilliantly creative team behind Led by Donkeys projected this campaign film onto the White Cliffs of Dover. I just wanted to make sure our friends in Europe heard it, so took the liberty of dubbing some cinematic music to complement their jawdropping 3000sq metre projection.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I take your point; but I rather thought that what he meant was that it was a sign of a caring society that foodbanks existed (ie that people would organise a system where one could donate, rather than bin, unwanted food). I don't find it ''uplifting'', exactly, but do think it's a scandal that so much food is wasted (supermarkets are now getting the message, but not long ago they used to have skips full of edible food, the only thing wrong with it being the date on the packaging).





KittenKong said:


> If he cared he would do something about the hardship and poverty as a result of UC and the bedroom tax.
> 
> Seeing that he hasn't at least spoken out about this speaks volumes.


He voted to rip away the welfare safety net for millions of people. He voted for austerity which has crippled out country & pushed millions into poverty. He voted to dismantle our NHS. He is dangerous extremist. God help us all if we crash out of the EU.


----------



## Magyarmum

Whilst the cat's away the mice will play ........ or words to that effect!

Today's news from the EU Parliament.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.e...as spokesperson for Brexit visa waiver report

*Claude Moraes 'removed' as spokesperson for Brexit visa waiver report*

https://www.france24.com/en/2019040...-travel-britons-schengen-after-no-deal-brexit

*EU approves visa-free travel for Britons even after 'no deal' Brexit*


----------



## Magyarmum

Nice work if you can get it!

https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/04/what-are-the-perks-of-being-an-mep-euronews-answers

*What are the perks of being an MEP? Euronews Answers*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Nice work if you can get it!
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/04/what-are-the-perks-of-being-an-mep-euronews-answers
> 
> *What are the perks of being an MEP? Euronews Answers*


Interesting. What are the equivalent figures for UK MPs?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Jesthar


Well spotted. Now corrected.
Thank you.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Well spotted. Now corrected.
> Thank you.


You're welcome


----------



## cheekyscrip

I can forgive a lot, but will never forgive Corbyn his sabotage of Remain campaign just to please some voters.

Neither I can forgive Unite for being so weak. So shortsighted.
To actually side with “ EU workers steal our jobs and our benefits at the same time “ campaign.

This tiny difference of 2% might have been made if the Labour leader Corbyn put his weight behind Remain and of he is a fool believing Brexit was better for common people, or he knew very well, but his ambition and this party above the nation.

This IMO makes him unworthy to be our PM.

There are Better People in Labour.

He lost to Strong and Stable!!!

I am not swayed by Murdoch and not a Tory supporter, I abhor what ERG represents.

I much rather have Ivette Cooper as Labour leader and PM.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting. What are the equivalent figures for UK MPs?


Aren't I good to you? Not sure you deserve it though

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/

*Pay and expenses for MPs*

https://paycheck.in/salary/salarycheckers/jean-claude-juncker

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-does-the-us-president-get-paid-2016-11


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Aren't I good to you? Not sure you deserve it though
> 
> https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/
> 
> *Pay and expenses for MPs*
> 
> https://paycheck.in/salary/salarycheckers/jean-claude-juncker
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-does-the-us-president-get-paid-2016-11


Thank you.

Nice work if you can get it!

(Especially if you can get away with fiddling the expenses.)


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> I fail to understand why Facebook 'permitted' me to receive posts from Leave Means Leave, advertising for a No Deal Brexit.
> 
> Are they now that desperate they're targeting the most passionate of Euro/Schengen EU supporting users such as myself?!


This could explain the Facebook targeting. I've been targeted by Britain's Future. It's this sort of hideous behaviour that makes me feel we are leaving people believe this (well, my uncle who we call Far Right Andrew)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-of-lynton-crosby-firm?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I can forgive a lot, but will never forgive Corbyn his sabotage of Remain campaign just to please some voters.
> 
> Neither I can forgive Unite for being so weak. So shortsighted.
> To actually side with " EU workers steal our jobs and our benefits at the same time " campaign.
> 
> This tiny difference of 2% might have been made if the Labour leader Corbyn put his weight behind Remain and of he is a fool believing Brexit was better for common people, or he knew very well, but his ambition and this party above the nation.
> 
> This IMO makes him unworthy to be our PM.
> 
> There are Better People in Labour.
> 
> He lost to Strong and Stable!!!
> 
> I am not swayed by Murdoch and not a Tory supporter, I abhor what ERG represents.
> 
> I much rather have Ivette Cooper as Labour leader and PM.


He put as much weight behind the remain campaign as Nicola Sturgeon did. The MSM barely paid the progressive campaign to remain any attention tbqh. The two right wing campaigns for leave & remain were the main focus. In my impoverished area austerity played a big factor in the vote to leave. Unlike many in the labour party, Corbyn has fought tooth & nail against austerity policies. Had other politicians stood up for the people against austerity brexit would likely never have happened. Yet he gets the blame for the brexit outcome.












cheekyscrip said:


> He lost to Strong and Stable!!!


 :Hilarious this cracked me up .

Corbyn was smeared & delegitimised in the press, by the opposition & he was constantly undermined by the right wing of his own party, so labour actually did amazingly well in the general election. Better even then Miliband did, Labour under Corbyn defied all expectations & lost May her majority. One of the reasons the party did so was because the labour manifesto finally offered a real alternative to neoliberalism.

I don't for one moment think you subscribe to the right wing gutter press, but its no coincidence that Murdoch has supported the winner of every general election since Thatcher.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> He put as much weight behind the remain campaign as Nicola Sturgeon did. The MSM barely paid the progressive campaign to remain any attention tbqh. The two right wing campaigns for leave & remain were the main focus. In my impoverished area austerity played a big factor in the vote to leave. Unlike many in the labour party, Corbyn has fought tooth & nail against austerity policies. Had other politicians stood up for the people against austerity brexit would likely never have happened. Yet he gets the blame for the brexit outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :Hilarious this cracked me up .
> 
> Corbyn was smeared & delegitimised in the press, by the opposition & he was constantly undermined by the right wing of his own party, so labour actually did amazingly well in the general election. Better even then Miliband did, Labour under Corbyn defied all expectations & lost May her majority. One of the reasons the party did so was because the labour manifesto finally offered a real alternative to neoliberalism.
> 
> I don't for one moment think you subscribe to the right wing gutter press, but its no coincidence that Murdoch has supported the winner of every general election since Thatcher.


I do agree with most except that IMO he is an eurosceptic.
Plus his position on People's Vote!!! Too many changes of heart!!!
That is my biggest problem with that man. He can virtually produce more electricity than wind turbine!!!!


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> He put as much weight behind the remain campaign as Nicola Sturgeon did. The MSM barely paid the progressive campaign to remain any attention tbqh. The two right wing campaigns for leave & remain were the main focus. In my impoverished area austerity played a big factor in the vote to leave. Unlike many in the labour party, Corbyn has fought tooth & nail against austerity policies. Had other politicians stood up for the people against austerity brexit would likely never have happened. Yet he gets the blame for the brexit outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :Hilarious this cracked me up .
> 
> Corbyn was smeared & delegitimised in the press, by the opposition & he was constantly undermined by the right wing of his own party, so labour actually did amazingly well in the general election. Better even then Miliband did, Labour under Corbyn defied all expectations & lost May her majority. One of the reasons the party did so was because the labour manifesto finally offered a real alternative to neoliberalism.
> 
> I don't for one moment think you subscribe to the right wing gutter press, but its no coincidence that Murdoch has supported the winner of every general election since Thatcher.


You're right but Corbyn does have a history of Euroscepticism unfortunately. Nevertheless, even if he was the most passionate remain supporter this would've been largely ignored by the media.

Ironically too, knowing how much the usual media detest him a strong campaign for remain from him could've backfired with leave winning with a greater percentage!

Nevertheless, his performance since the referendum shows indecisiveness as he appears to be torn between his long-standing Euroscepticism and the far right leave campaign. May wants her version, Corbyn wants his version of Brexit.

I am also very annoyed at his offer to work with May on 'delivering' Brexit. I only hope he isn't so desperate to deliver it he'll succumb to the May plan. It'll finish him and Labour as the ConDem coalition finished Clegg and the Lib Dems.

His refusal to participate in the two pro EU marches in London was very disappointing too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> You're right but Corbyn does have a history of Euroscepticism unfortunately. Nevertheless, even if he was the most passionate remain supporter this would've been largely ignored by the media.
> 
> Ironically too, knowing how much the usual media detest him a strong campaign for remain from him could've backfired with leave winning with a greater percentage!
> 
> Nevertheless, his performance since the referendum shows indecisiveness as he appears to be torn between his long-standing Euroscepticism and the far right leave campaign. May wants her version, Corbyn wants his version of Brexit.
> 
> I am also very annoyed at his offer to work with May on 'delivering' Brexit. I only hope he isn't so desperate to deliver it he'll succumb to the May plan. It'll finish him as the ConDem coalition finished Clegg and the Lib Dems.
> 
> His refusal to participate in the two pro EU marches in London was very disappointing too.


You almost feel that what Labour want and what he wants are two different things... he is not a good leader if cannot unite his party especially then Tories are so split!!!
Golden opportunity lost, he is not a good politician I am afraid.
He might be a good man, don't question that, but gets offended far too easily.

It is not his left leaning I hold against him, but rather his actions.

If you had someone like Havel... or even Wałęsa ....very good in making friends and talking calmly to opponents...even tempered but decided.

Persistent but modest.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> or even Wałęsa


A man with vision and with a core of grit


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> A man with vision and with a core of grit


A man who wanted dialogue and prevented bloodshed!!! Kept the hotheads from guerrilla and putting the whole movement in mortal danger.

Never succumbed to provocation...

Now Polish ERG hate him with more passion than communists!

Thank you @rona I lived close to him and knew him by sight when he was just a spoke person for his mates dockers...

All he wanted was better working conditions for his mates...then things got out of hand...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> A man who wanted dialogue and prevented bloodshed!!! Kept the hotheads from guerrilla and putting the whole movement in mortal danger.
> 
> Never succumbed to provocation...
> 
> Now Polish ERG hate him with more passion than communists!
> 
> Thank you @rona I lived close to him and knew him by sight when he was just a spoke person for his mates dockers...
> 
> All he wanted was better working conditions for his mates...then things got out of hand...


The irony of how the usual UK media portrayed Walesa a hero yet supported the Thatcher government's decimation of Trade Unions!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> You almost feel that what Labour want and what he wants are two different things... he is not a good leader if cannot unite his party especially then Tories are so split!!!
> Golden opportunity lost, he is not a good politician I am afraid.
> He might be a good man, don't question that, but gets offended far too easily.
> 
> It is not his left leaning I hold against him, but rather his actions.
> 
> If you had someone like Havel... or even Wałęsa ....very good in making friends and talking calmly to opponents...even tempered but decided.
> 
> Persistent but modest.


Yes, sometimes I think Corbyn is a one person Labour party in much the same way Theresa May is a one person Tory. Only _their _personal views matter.

Can't wait for both of them to go quite frankly, but I think Corbyn will be ousted before May is, especially if he swallows his pride and succumbs to the May deal which will dirty his hands with it and be blamed by the usual media for enabling it.

He was stupid to agree to work with her in the first place.

Rumour has it, he does not want Revoke A50 on the ballot paper should a PV arise. That'll immediately destroy his chances in Scotland which would force them to choose between two options they didn't vote for in the first place, ditto with Gibraltar and NI.

Would be like me being asked to vote for either Theresa May or Boris Johnson in a GE. Would you vote for either? I certainly wouldn't.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I do agree with most except that IMO he is an eurosceptic.
> Plus his position on People's Vote!!! Too many changes of heart!!!
> That is my biggest problem with that man. He can virtually produce more electricity than wind turbine!!!!





KittenKong said:


> You're right but Corbyn does have a history of Euroscepticism unfortunately. Nevertheless, even if he was the most passionate remain supporter this would've been largely ignored by the media.
> 
> Ironically too, knowing how much the usual media detest him a strong campaign for remain from him could've backfired with leave winning with a greater percentage!
> 
> Nevertheless, his performance since the referendum shows indecisiveness as he appears to be torn between his long-standing Euroscepticism and the far right leave campaign. May wants her version, Corbyn wants his version of Brexit.
> 
> I am also very annoyed at his offer to work with May on 'delivering' Brexit. I only hope he isn't so desperate to deliver it he'll succumb to the May plan. It'll finish him and Labour as the ConDem coalition finished Clegg and the Lib Dems.
> 
> His refusal to participate in the two pro EU marches in London was very disappointing too.


I'm a eurosceptic too lol Like George Monbiot put it - I'm a Pro-Euro Eurosceptic The EU needs to be reformed, but I accept to do that we must remain. Plus as we can now clearly see the alternative to leaving is as horrific as we suspected they would be. A hard right ukipper government who will deregulate everything to enable corporate interests!

He campaigned as strongly as Nicola Sturgeon did. But don't forget the leave campaign not only got most of the media attention, but they were aided by Cambridge Analytica & dark money, they lied, they cheated - they broke the law! Anyone fronting the remain campaign would have been severely disadvantaged from the start. This is not making excuses for Corbyn, because I too think he deserves criticism! he has been all over the place since the result. No clarity, I've been really disappointed. That said, Labour were caught between a rock & a hard place with many of their seats in poor constituencies voting strongly to leave.

He has consistently voted against the governments hard brexit though. I believe hes voted 3 times now for a peoples vote. So hes certainly been trying to stop the tories disastrous hard brexit & no deal. He needs to get her to compromise on a peoples vote now or walk away. Not let May drag him and this country down with her.

I have mixed feelings about him not participating in the peoples march. With so many people(animals!) suffering & everything in crisis because of the tories we desperately need a labour government, I'm not sure (in my area for example) him marching would have gone down too well. He's treading a thin line.


----------



## noushka05

Please do listen to this https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2019/apr/04/blowing-the-whistle-on-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Please do listen to this https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2019/apr/04/blowing-the-whistle-on-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw


Would've been an ideal opportunity for the opposition to capitalise on this. Instead many are sticking to their, "We must respect the will of the people" rhetoric.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Would've been an ideal opportunity for the opposition to capitalise on this. Instead many are sticking to their, "We must respect the will of the people" rhetoric.


I won't defend the indefensible. Labour should be holding the government to account on this! As should the msm.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Climate denier Charles Moore embarrassing us with reckless ignorance yet again


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> A man who wanted dialogue and prevented bloodshed!!! Kept the hotheads from guerrilla and putting the whole movement in mortal danger.
> Never succumbed to provocation...
> All he wanted was better working conditions for his mates...then things got out of hand...


I remember the press showing him in a negative light when he was first noticed and I thought he was an amazing person to stand up for what was right. A man with conviction and true to himself and his mates rather than these fame/money seeking so called activists of today.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> seeking so called activists of today.


:Wideyed


----------



## rona

A bit of education for those that don't know and those that think these key board warriors of today are anything special

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lech-Walesa


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> (Especially if you can get away with fiddling the expenses.)


And get away with this too!!
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/anger-jailbird-mp-stopped-brexit-bill-won-one-vote-9110413/


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> A bit of education for those that don't know and those that think these key board warriors of today are anything special
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lech-Walesa


Just in case this is a dig at me,I am going to respond to this post. (though as I'm apparently on ignore & I'm sure you wouldnt lie about that so possibly not).

1) I don't need educating about Lech Walesa. He was great leader & an awesome trade union activist. How this government would loathed him, hey?. The tories are allied with the anthisis of Solidarnosc - the right wing, anti-immigration Law & Justice Party. Perfect bed fellows they are too.

& 2) I don't think keyboard warriors are anything special  I prefer people, like Lech, who get off their arses & do something. Greta Thunberg for example.

Lech won the Nobel Peace Prize. I would dearly love this amazing young climate activist to win it this year


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Just in case this is a dig at me,I am going to respond to this post. (though as I'm apparently on ignore & I'm sure you wouldnt lie about that so possibly not).
> 
> 1) I don't need educating about Lech Walesa. He was great leader & an awesome trade union activist. How this government would loathed him, hey?. The tories are allied with the anthisis of Solidarnosc - the right wing, anti-immigration Law & Justice Party. Perfect bed fellows they are too.
> 
> & 2) I don't think keyboard warriors are anything special  I prefer people, like Lech, who get off their arses & do something. Greta Thunberg for example.
> 
> Lech won the Nobel Peace Prize. I would dearly love this amazing young climate activist to win it this year


What does being a 'climate change activist' have to do with promoting peace though?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> What does being a 'climate change activist' have to do with promoting peace though?


Lots. As resources become ever more scarce it could create conflict over those precious resources. Climate change will displace millions more people, this too will create conflict. Look at the reaction to the refugee crisis now then imagine the whole of Africa banging at our door? Many refugees today are climate change refugees Mille x


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Lots. As resources become ever more scarce it could create conflict over those precious resources. Climate change will displace millions more people, this too will create conflict. Look at the reaction to the refugee crisis now then imagine the whole of Africa banging at our door? Many refugees today are climate change refugees Mille x


Really? So drought in Africa is new?

This link says it's impossible to tell who is and who isn't a 'climate change refugee'.

http://climatemigration.org.uk/climate-refugee-statistics/

God I hope I haven't posted something that's far right, I'll never hear the end of it  xx


----------



## Magyarmum

Breaking News,

Just been announced on CNN and France 24 that TM has written to the EU requesting an extension to June 30th, which means of course that the UK may have to participate in the EU Elections.

Should be fun!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-eu-is-expecting-theresa-may-to-ask-for-a-long-brexit

*Theresa May Has Asked For Article 50 To Be Extended To 30 June*


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> Really? So drought in Africa is new?
> 
> This link says it's impossible to tell who is and who isn't a 'climate change refugee'.
> 
> http://climatemigration.org.uk/climate-refugee-statistics/
> 
> God I hope I haven't posted something that's far right, I'll never hear the end of it  xx


Don't read the small print anyone :Jawdrop


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Really? So drought in Africa is new?
> 
> This link says it's impossible to tell who is and who isn't a 'climate change refugee'.
> 
> http://climatemigration.org.uk/climate-refugee-statistics/
> 
> God I hope I haven't posted something that's far right, I'll never hear the end of it  xx


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Really? So drought in Africa is new?
> 
> This link says it's impossible to tell who is and who isn't a 'climate change refugee'.
> 
> http://climatemigration.org.uk/climate-refugee-statistics/
> 
> God I hope I haven't posted something that's far right, I'll never hear the end of it  xx


It's not just Africa, though. Water stress, for example, is a very real thing in many developed countries too - including the UK, where certain areas are already classifed 'severe' and it only takes a couple of dry winters to risk water shortages. At current water usage/projected population increase levels the UK is heading towards the point where supply needs to be limited by about 2050.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> And get away with this too!!
> https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/anger-jailbird-mp-stopped-brexit-bill-won-one-vote-9110413/


It does seem a bit off, doesn't it, but I guess thems is the rules.

I read - don't know if it has been confirmed - that a minister was prevented from entering the lobby to vote for a second time after already being counted once.

British democracy; don't you just love it!


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Breaking News,
> 
> Just been announced on CNN and France 24 that TM has written to the EU requesting an extension to June 30th, which means of course that the UK may have to participate in the EU Elections.
> 
> Should be fun!
> 
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-eu-is-expecting-theresa-may-to-ask-for-a-long-brexit
> 
> *Theresa May Has Asked For Article 50 To Be Extended To 30 June*


She has already asked for that once, and the EU turned it down. But that seems to be her tactic when her plans are rejected.

It also, of course, rules out (in her mind) the chance of a confirmatory vote, which does seem to pre-empt the discussions that are apparently on-going with the leader of the Labour party, whose official policy is to have just such a vote.

May's My Way or No Way method of 'negotiation' that has got us into this mess in the first place.


----------



## KittenKong

What? Like declare war or something?

How utterly pathetic.

Who triggered Article 50 in the first place?









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...weet-uk-disruption-brexit-delay-a8856326.html


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> What? Like declare war or something?
> 
> How utterly pathetic.
> 
> Who triggered Article 50 in the first place?
> 
> View attachment 399377
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...weet-uk-disruption-brexit-delay-a8856326.html


He really is a t!t isn't he?


----------



## kimthecat

Donald Tusk suggests 12 month delay .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47821646
European Council President Donald Tusk is proposing to offer the UK a 12-month "flexible" extension to its Brexit date, according to a senior EU source.

His plan, which would need to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit next week, would allow the UK to leave sooner if Parliament ratifies a deal.

The UK's Conservatives and Labour Party are set to continue Brexit talks later.

Theresa May has written to Mr Tusk with the UK's request for a further delay to Brexit until 30 June.

The UK is due to leave the EU on 12 April and, as yet, no withdrawal deal has been approved by MPs.

Downing Street said "technical" talks between Labour and the Conservatives on Thursday had been "productive" and would continue on Friday.

Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has told the BBC that if they fail, the delay is "likely to be a long one".


----------



## Elles

Why don’t they just be honest and say what they’re really doing? The Eu will offer as many delays as we want. They want the U.K. to stay in the Eu and they really don’t want us to leave without a deal with them. What if the U.K. leaves with no deal, then does better than Europe? Perish the thought. They’ll lose at least half their members in one go if that happened and then who’d pay for them? :O


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Why don't they just be honest and say what they're really doing? The Eu will offer as many delays as we want. They want the U.K. to stay in the Eu and they really don't want us to leave without a deal with them. *What if the U.K. leaves with no deal, then does better than Europe?* Perish the thought. They'll lose at least half their members in one go if that happened and then who'd pay for them? :O


Given that even the Brexiteers have admitted any deals the UK negotiates won't be as good as the EU trade deals we already have, and the sheer hellish complexity of trading on WTO terms (which no other nation on Earth, even North Korea, does), I would have to say that is incredibly unlikely...


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> It does seem a bit off, doesn't it, but I guess thems is the rules.


The irony is that, had she not been released early, as a prisoner she would not have been eligible to vote (for anything). I also heard that while in the slammer she was getting paid as an MP . . . not sure if that could possibly be right tho. I mean, is she going to be able to hold her ''surgery'' in the waiting room of the prison where she is ''doing porridge''? :Hilarious I suppose at least she wasn't wearing a prison uniform and handcuffs.


----------



## KittenKong

The sooner these talks break down the better as far as I'm concerned.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...yn-doesnt-press-for-public-vote-watson-brexit


















Meanwhile, two years of Theresa May has resulted in more resignations than Blair (during his 10 years) and Thatcher (11 years).

Why they still permit this vile woman to govern baffles me.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Really? So drought in Africa is new?
> 
> This link says it's impossible to tell who is and who isn't a 'climate change refugee'.
> 
> http://climatemigration.org.uk/climate-refugee-statistics/
> 
> God I hope I haven't posted something that's far right, I'll never hear the end of it  xx


No but Sub Saharan Africa which suffers from droughts, will, as temperatures rise become inhospitable and just to add to Jesthar's comment about water shortages not just in Africa, it isn't only water sources which will be affected, we have to look at the bigger picture. Ecosystems are adapted to climate, so as heatwaves, droughts, floods, rising sea levels become more regular & more persistent the greatest impacts will be ecological. Our food supply systems & our economy are reliant on ecosystems which we just take for granted. Unless we change our ways & fast we risk the collapse of our civilization & a new & frightening world of global conflict for limited resources.

The US military have been gearing up for when dangerous climate change comes to town. No doubt other super powers have been doing the same. https://www.acq.osd.mil/eie/downloads/CCARprint_wForward_e.pdf










Your link also says this: 
_Here is the dilemma: just because we can't define or count climate refugees, doesn't mean that climate change has no influence on migration and displacement. It absolutely does.

Just because we can't count "climate refugees" doesn't mean that in the future there might be more people who have climate change amongst the causes of their migration or displacement.

:Hilarious _I've just spotted the small print!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> A man with vision and with a core of grit


His vision was Poland in EU.
We were fighting for freedom of movement!
To get out of Russia's clutches and join democratic European family.

He promised that after the change the will be no witch hunt. No recriminations.
This Polish ERG cannot forgive him.

Poland in EU did well. Not perfect, but well.

You know the history, people were killed, tortured, beaten up.
Grzegorz Przemyk - just an example.
https://g.co/kgs/16zDh5

When I was leaving home to give out illegal press I knew I might never come back and was a schoolgirl. Bad things happened to young girls if caught.

We all did it to have more than One Party, to have democracy, to have free movement!!!

To have passport as right not a special favour.


----------



## Elles

The Eu didn’t fight to get you away from Russia, or for your freedom. You did.

Don’t confuse freedom of movement of labour with actual freedom. We aren’t free to go live in other Eu countries unless we have work or money, or both and the relevant paperwork. That applies to most places in or out of the Eu. It’s more free than some, but it’s freedom with strings and it’s capitalism.


----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook. Sadly I've encountered a lot of this sort of attitude too:

Sorry but I had to share. I was just bagging my goods at Aldi when the person behind decided to start a conversation with me and it went like this:

****: Grrrr Brexit, had enough of it
Me: yes me too, I don’t want to hear anymore until they are ready to say we’ll remain
****: see the German and Irish economy are in a mess now too
Me: yes it’s a shame we are taking everyone down with us
****: we need brexit now! We didn’t fight two world wars to be taken over by the Germans again
Me: oh you fought two world wars did you, well done 
****: they need brexit now and to throw out all the bloody foreigners 
Me: please do not speak to me. I do not share your views and I find you very offensive

I was shaking with anger and even more angry that I didn’t mention the irony of him shopping in German supermarket where he purchases his very cheap products, primarily from the EU

I have never experienced this kind of racism or xenophobia before. Where a random stranger feels it is acceptable to say “throw out all the bloody foreigners.” It is undeniable that brexit has made this kind of behaviour seem acceptable to some people.

So angry and upset


----------



## KittenKong

Now UKIP are breaking this into my FB news feed. Are they that desperate?

This is as plausible as the £350m for the NHS pledge. While it's true VAT was introduced in 1973 they appear to have forgotten _Purchase Tax _that preceded it.

Either way, goods subjected to VAT will not suddenly become 20℅ cheaper on leaving the EU!

I'll report this as Fake News.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The Eu didn't fight to get you away from Russia, or for your freedom. You did.
> 
> Don't confuse freedom of movement of labour with actual freedom. We aren't free to go live in other Eu countries unless we have work or money, or both and the relevant paperwork. That applies to most places in or out of the Eu. It's more free than some, but it's freedom with strings and it's capitalism.


To put it right- Britain- Thatcher helped a lot in our quest.

Without her - credit where deserved it would not be possible. Reagan of course, Kohl too and JP II.
Freedom of movement - you actually owned a passport, could on holidays to Spain, could study abroad like Erasmus, marry a foreigner without being interrogated and detained even as potential spy.

If you never lived like that you cannot imagine.

Even to go to another communist state was not easy!

As a student I was invited to UK , all legal,
all approved as we were invited by UK uni for a few weeks only.

Polish authorities didn't let us go.

As a scientist you could not go to conferences, publish abroad, even get access to publications!!!
Only for the snitches party 
members !
The joy of seeing Berlin Wall fall...is

Now Britain is destroying it and building the wall


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 399392
> 
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-london-economic/

*The London Economic*

_*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*

Share:
FacebookTwitterPinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare11
*







LEFT BIAS*
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Left Bias sources.

Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
World Press Freedom Rank: *United Kingdom 40/180*

Notes: The London Economic is a website that covers news about politics, entertainment, business, breaking news, and health. The founder is Jack Peat who is a business and economics journalist who has also written for the Telegraph and BBC News.

In review, The London Economic has a strong left wing bias in story selection that always favors the left. They consistently use loaded headlines such as: "Leaked list of Conservative Party sex pest sleaze published, shaming THIRTY SIX current Tory MPs." While The London Economic mentions their source in articles, they do not provide hyperlinks for further verification of information, which leads to articles being spun and taken out of context. Overall, we rate The London Economic Left Biased and Mixed for factual reporting based on lack of hyperlinked sourcing. (D. Van Zandt 12/09/2017)


----------



## Elles

View attachment 399462


cheekyscrip said:


> To put it right- Britain- Thatcher helped a lot in our quest.
> 
> Without her - credit where deserved it would not be possible. Reagan of course, Kohl too and JP II.
> Freedom of movement - you actually owned a passport, could on holidays to Spain, could study abroad like Erasmus, marry a foreigner without being interrogated and detained even as potential spy.
> 
> If you never lived like that you cannot imagine.
> 
> Even to go to another communist state was not easy!
> 
> As a student I was invited to UK , all legal,
> all approved as we were invited by UK uni for a few weeks only.
> 
> Polish authorities didn't let us go.
> 
> As a scientist you could not go to conferences, publish abroad, even get access to publications!!!
> Only for the snitches party
> members !
> The joy of seeing Berlin Wall fall...is
> 
> Now Britain is destroying it and building the wall


None of this was because of the Eu though, the Eu as it is today didn't exist. It's not what it was meant to be.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-london-economic/
> 
> *The London Economic*
> 
> _*Has this Media Source failed a fact check?*_ *LET US KNOW HERE.*
> 
> Share:
> FacebookTwitterPinterestEmailTumblrRedditLinkedInFlipboardGoogle BookmarksShare11
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LEFT BIAS*
> These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Left Bias sources.
> 
> Factual Reporting: *MIXED*
> World Press Freedom Rank: *United Kingdom 40/180*
> 
> Notes: The London Economic is a website that covers news about politics, entertainment, business, breaking news, and health. The founder is Jack Peat who is a business and economics journalist who has also written for the Telegraph and BBC News.
> 
> In review, The London Economic has a strong left-wing bias in story selection that always favors the left. They consistently use loaded headlines such as: "Leaked list of Conservative Party sex pest sleaze published, shaming THIRTY SIX current Tory MPs." While The London Economic mentions their source in articles, they do not provide hyperlinks for further verification of information, which leads to articles being spun and taken out of context. Overall, we rate The London Economic Left Biased and Mixed for factual reporting based on lack of hyperlinked sourcing. (D. Van Zandt 12/09/2017)


So, you are dismissing this as a lie?

There is nothing "Left wing" about opposing Brexit. The far left are as pro Brexit as the far right are.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> So, you are dismissing this as a lie?
> 
> There is nothing "Left wing" about opposing Brexit. The far left are as pro Brexit as the far right are.


Where have I said that it's a lie?

Never mentioned Left Wing either!

Confused.com


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> View attachment 399464
> View attachment 399462
> 
> 
> None of this was because of the Eu though, the Eu as it is today didn't exist. It's not what it was meant to be.


Oh joy! I can visit Europe as an alien, according to that meme! This is rubbish seeing the UK have yet to decide on a No Deal or May deal Brexit.

Even if no visas are required UK citizens will still have to arrive at Intetnational channels and may be subjected to customs declarations etc. Like the good old days.

As for your last paragraph- seeing the EU embrace this is enough surely? Certainly without becoming a member of the EU countries like Poland would not have enjoyed FoM. It will end in the UK as it is leaving it. Coincidence?

Anyway, more from what some hope after Brexit:

From Jack Dart:

This is incredibly telling.

When 42% of Leave voters want to re-empower teachers to physically assault their own children and grandchildren you know your country has lost its collective heart and mind.

Brexit is a regressive project, backed by a significant chunk of bitter left-behinds who're prepared to defecate in their child's hotel bed to protest the price of the room. Problem is, that child hasn't consented to said action and won't stand for it.

This graph reaffirms why Millennials aren't interested in Brexit. Millennials don't want these things and won't vote for the parties that pander to these regressive views.


----------



## KittenKong

From Sky News, hardly a left wing source.

https://news.sky.com/story/customs-industry-not-ready-for-brexit-11685075


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


Philip Hammond quoted this morning as saying that there are 'no red lines' in the discussions with Labour.

So how come May has already made an official request to the EU for an extension only until the end of June, thereby precluding a confirmatory referendum?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The Eu didn't fight to get you away from Russia, or for your freedom. You did.
> 
> Don't confuse freedom of movement of labour with actual freedom. *We aren't free to go live in other Eu countries unless we have work or money, or both and the relevant paperwork. * That applies to most places in or out of the Eu. It's more free than some, but it's freedom with strings and it's capitalism.


And yet the main reason for leaving, as far as I can see, is to regain control of our borders and reduce (EU) immigration. Perhaps the border isn't quite as irrelevant as we have been told.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arnie83 said:


> Philip Hammond quoted this morning as saying that there are 'no red lines' in the discussions with Labour.
> 
> So how come May has already made an official request to the EU for an extension only until the end of June, thereby precluding a confirmatory referendum?


I sure I heard somewhere that although both parties are talking, May still hasn't changed anything in her deal, so what's the point of her talking to anyone.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> View attachment 399464
> View attachment 399462
> 
> 
> None of this was because of the Eu though, the Eu as it is today didn't exist. It's not what it was meant to be.


European Community existed, I agree EU can be better and Britain should be to force to make it better!
Not to quit!!!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Now UKIP are breaking this into my FB news feed. Are they that desperate?
> 
> This is as plausible as the £350m for the NHS pledge. While it's true VAT was introduced in 1973 they appear to have forgotten _Purchase Tax _that preceded it.
> 
> Either way, goods subjected to VAT will not suddenly become 20℅ cheaper on leaving the EU!
> 
> I'll report this as Fake News.
> 
> View attachment 399457
> View attachment 399458


:Hilarious:Hilarious

Imagine the reduction in public services and welfare if the government suddenly had billions less in tax to spend.

They take people for fools and have done so for 3 years. Sadly they do not always encounter stony ground.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> And yet the main reason for leaving, as far as I can see, is to regain control of our borders and reduce (EU) immigration. Perhaps the border isn't quite as irrelevant as we have been told.


Regain control of our borders and reduce (EU) immigration, or to stop businesses importing cheap, ready trained skilled and unskilled labour from and via the Eu and the exploitation of a young workforce from newer, or less successful Eu economies. Depends on how you look at it.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> European Community existed, I agree EU can be better and Britain should be to force to make it better!
> Not to quit!!!


You hit the nail on the head. It's hard to sell the Eu when even it's staunchest supporters believe it needs reform. Unfortunately in recent years brexiteers could say that Britain has been unsuccessful in any attempts at reform. They could also point out how leaving it is forcing it to reform and having more effect than we did inside it.

The holiday and business visit thing must give you some encouragement? With this news there should be no problem accessing your vet and rescue in Spain, unless the Spanish decide to be awkward about it and that can happen regardless.

Racists shouldn't use brexit to support or encourage them in their their bigotry, the Spanish shouldn't use it as an excuse for bad behaviour either.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Regain control of our borders and reduce (EU) immigration, or to stop businesses importing cheap, ready trained skilled and unskilled labour from and via the Eu and the exploitation of a young workforce from newer, or less successful Eu economies. Depends on how you look at it.


So long as they employ the labour according to the law, who are we to deny them an increased wage, some of which goes back 'home', boosting their economy and enticing the economic migrants back.

Not having a go at you, but it's this insular country view of things again. The single market is a single market, where workers are free to find jobs where they can, just like the UK jobs market. We don't complain that Geordies coming down to London to find work are impoverishing Newcastle; why should we think any differently about, say, Poles coming here for better wages? Yes, in both cases, initial damage might be done to the region, be it Geordieland or Poland, but the solution, to my mind anyway, is to stimulate those areas, not discourage people from moving from them by raising borders.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> So long as they employ the labour according to the law, who are we to deny them an increased wage, some of which goes back 'home', boosting their economy and enticing the economic migrants back.
> 
> Not having a go at you, but it's this insular country view of things again. The single market is a single market, where workers are free to find jobs where they can, just like the UK jobs market. We don't complain that Geordies coming down to London to find work are impoverishing Newcastle; why should we think any differently about, say, Poles coming here for better wages? Yes, in both cases, initial damage might be done to the region, be it Geordieland or Poland, but the solution, to my mind anyway, is to stimulate those areas, not discourage people from moving from them by raising borders.


Perhaps you should consider the opposing point of view as seen through the eyes of the countries that suffer most from the EU's freedom of movement.

https://www.voanews.com/a/depopulat...uestion-eu-s-freedom-of-movement/4727358.html

*Depopulation Fears Prompt Some to Question EU's Freedom of Movement*

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/voice-of-america/


----------



## Happy Paws2

Does anyone really think things are going to be so much better when we leave the EU. The EU control our working laws so people can't be exploited, and lets face it if we don't have the EU behind us, safety would be a big issue. Also they fund most of our big engineering projects and they have helped rebuild our hospitals, when we leave we still wouldn't have enough money to do these things on our own.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> So long as they employ the labour according to the law, who are we to deny them an increased wage, some of which goes back 'home', boosting their economy and enticing the economic migrants back.
> 
> Not having a go at you, but it's this insular country view of things again. The single market is a single market, where workers are free to find jobs where they can, just like the UK jobs market. We don't complain that Geordies coming down to London to find work are impoverishing Newcastle; why should we think any differently about, say, Poles coming here for better wages? Yes, in both cases, initial damage might be done to the region, be it Geordieland or Poland, but the solution, to my mind anyway, is to stimulate those areas, not discourage people from moving from them by raising borders.


We've had this discussion before.

Europe is not one big country where everyone is equal, it's lots of smaller ones, some wealthier than others. A wide range of pay, taxes, access to healthcare, cost of living, standard of living.That's one of the things I think is wrong with it. Why should a skilled Pole doing exactly the same job be paid differently depending which country he's in when they are all part of the Eu? It's not me being insular and country, it's the Eu and its member states.

A Geordie working in London is still paying U.K. taxes and NI and contributing to geordieland in the same way as though he were still there. Though it's being proven that uprooting and destroying our extended family, taking children away from grandparents and other relatives and splitting our communities is bad for our mental health, so the Geordie might want to think about it.

Why do you want a skilled worker from Europe to have more rights than a skilled worker from Africa, or China, or even England. The English university student will leave with enormous debts to pay, the Pole will have had 'free' education, paid for by the people who won't benefit from his skill and qualification.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> Does anyone really think things are going to be so much better when we leave the EU. The EU control our working laws so people can't be exploited, and lets face it if we don't have the EU behind us, safety would be a big issue. Also they fund most of our big engineering projects and they have helped rebuild our hospitals, when we leave we still wouldn't have enough money to do these things on our own.


Why do you think our own government isn't capable of protecting workers' rights, or investing U.K. taxes? It's our own country who chooses to comply to the Eu rules, made a lot of them and campaigned for them. We have higher standards than the Eu requires in some areas. We aren't going to leave the Eu and suddenly become Brunei and start stoning people. I don't think that's a legitimate fear, so long as we keep on top of it, there's plenty of MPs and peers who won't let us go backwards in that respect.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> We've had this discussion before.
> 
> Europe is not one big country where everyone is equal, it's lots of smaller ones, some wealthier than others. A wide range of pay, taxes, access to healthcare, cost of living, standard of living.That's one of the things I think is wrong with it. Why should a skilled Pole doing exactly the same job be paid differently depending which country he's in when they are all part of the Eu? It's not me being insular and country, it's the Eu and its member states.
> 
> A Geordie working in London is still paying U.K. taxes and NI and contributing to geordieland in the same way as though he were still there. Though it's being proven that uprooting and destroying our extended family, taking children away from grandparents and other relatives and splitting our communities is bad for our mental health, so the Geordie might want to think about it.
> 
> Why do you want a skilled worker from Europe to have more rights than a skilled worker from Africa, or China, or even England. The English university student will leave with enormous debts to pay, the Pole will have had 'free' education, paid for by the people who won't benefit from his skill and qualification.


That is for Poland to give young people better chance.

Also that is for Britain to offer free education for students and have own professionals.

I am sure Britain is not short of human potential but is wasting it.

Poorer kids will be crippled with huge debts if they study and without guarantees they get job paid enough to pay back... you don't want to be in debt into your thirties!!! With no chance for mortgage etc...


----------



## Elles

Yeah, it’s absolutely pathetic that Poland uni is free and the U.K. isn’t. However, I don’t know what the answer is for the U.K., when fees have meant a wider range of people accessing uni than before. It just seems wrong that Polish people pay for their young people to be educated, then the young people have to leave to work in Germany, or the U.K. or somewhere. Brexit has at least meant companies relocating instead of uprooting workers. It’s no choice, when there is no choice.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> *Why do you think our own government isn't capable of protecting workers' rights, or investing U.K. taxes? *It's our own country who chooses to comply to the Eu rules, made a lot of them and campaigned for them. We have higher standards than the Eu requires in some areas. We aren't going to leave the Eu and suddenly become Brunei and start stoning people. I don't think that's a legitimate fear, so long as we keep on top of it, there's plenty of MPs and peers who won't let us go backwards in that respect.


Because if we have a tory government all they think about is money and workers rights will go straight out the window. All they think about is how they an screw money out of the normal working people, at least the EU protected us from things like that.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> Because if we have a tory government all they think about is money and workers rights will go straight out the window. All they think about is how they an screw money out of the normal working people, at least the EU protected us from things like that.


Then we need to vote in a different government. We shouldn't need Spanish, French and Italian MPs and countries to control ours, or vice versa.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I just cannot understand how No Deal can be good?
BoE is responsible for financial stability and they are clear it will be very bad indeed.

Are you seriously saying we should take chances?
Because you are in “ we need no experts” brigade?

Including No Deal in PV is asking dear Joe Blogg, who is no expert... “ Do you want UK to go in WTO rules”... and Joe Blogg says “WTF is WTO”?

How many British people actually understand WTO rules and regulations?

It will be ok because ERG said so?
They said Brexit will be the easiest deal because they need us more than we need them?

All they are interested in is deregulation and paying lower taxes as they have private health care and education for their children, they are not willing to contribute to yours!

They care nothing about disabled, old, unemployed, children, minorities, environment.

All they care is their Money and Power to make more Money.

People voting for Brexit voted against the People.
Trade Unions who supported it were damn fools.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> That is for Poland to give young people better chance.
> 
> Also that is for Britain to offer free education for students and have own professionals.
> 
> I am sure Britain is not short of human potential but is wasting it.
> 
> Poorer kids will be crippled with huge debts if they study and without guarantees they get job paid enough to pay back... you don't want to be in debt into your thirties!!! With no chance for mortgage etc...


The UK has only itself to blame for stopping providing free university education particularly for the training of Health Care professionals

I have a consultant neonatal paediatrician, a consultant gynecologist, and a consultant oral surgeon in my family all of whom qualified in the 60's. They all come from very ordinary families who had they needed to pay would never had been able to afford to send one child to university, let alone their siblings.

A revealing article about the history of University fees in the UK

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective

*University fees in historical perspective*

Also why the NHS has no chance of training enough staff

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47616491

*NHS 'no chance of training enough staff'*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> The UK has only itself to blame for stopping providing free university education particularly for the training of Health Care professionals
> 
> I have a consultant neonatal paediatrician, a consultant gynecologist, and a consultant oral surgeon in my family all of whom qualified in the 60's. They all come from very ordinary families who had they needed to pay would never had been able to afford to send one child to university, let alone their siblings.
> 
> A revealing article about the history of University fees in the UK
> 
> http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/university-fees-in-historical-perspective
> 
> *University fees in historical perspective*
> 
> Also why the NHS has no chance of training enough staff
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47616491
> 
> *NHS 'no chance of training enough staff'*


 This goes for all professional training.
Those who rule Britain don't want educated society, don't want people to think for themselves.

Else who would fall for the lies they spout? Tories?

Keep masses dumb!!!
_Panum et circe _


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> This goes for all professional training.
> Those who rule Britain don't want educated society, don't want people to think for themselves.
> 
> Else who would fall for the lies they spout? Tories?
> 
> Keep masses dumb!!!
> _Panum et circe _


and the worm is starting to strike back, starting with, hopefully Parliament will carry trying to stop may's deal.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I just cannot understand how No Deal can be good?
> BoE is responsible for financial stability and they are clear it will be very bad indeed.
> 
> Are you seriously saying we should take chances?
> Because you are in " we need no experts" brigade?
> 
> Including No Deal in PV is asking dear Joe Blogg, who is no expert... " Do you want UK to go in WTO rules"... and Joe Blogg says "WTF is WTO"?
> 
> How many British people actually understand WTO rules and regulations?
> 
> It will be ok because ERG said so?
> They said Brexit will be the easiest deal because they need us more than we need them?
> 
> All they are interested in is deregulation and paying lower taxes as they have private health care and education for their children, they are not willing to contribute to yours!
> 
> They care nothing about disabled, old, unemployed, children, minorities, environment.
> 
> All they care is their Money and Power to make more Money.
> 
> People voting for Brexit voted against the People.
> Trade Unions who supported it were damn fools.





cheekyscrip said:


> This goes for all professional training.
> Those who rule Britain don't want educated society, don't want people to think for themselves.
> 
> Else who would fall for the lies they spout? Tories?
> 
> Keep masses dumb!!!
> _Panum et circe _


And you want Britain to reform and improve the Eu? A lot of people think the Eu already only care about money and power to make more money, so maybe we have. 



Some would say that the rulers do want their people educated, but they want to control what they learn and stop them thinking for themselves.

https://newint.org/blog/2015/02/12/education-system-compliance

A few articles like this one floating about.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> and the worm is starting to strike back, starting with, hopefully Parliament will carry trying to stop may's deal.


May will strike back : so it will be No Deal and all your fault Parliament and Labour!!!

People voted to be poor, to lose their jobs, respect the Will of The People!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> And you want Britain to reform and improve the Eu? A lot of people think the Eu already only care about money and power to make more money, so maybe we have.
> 
> 
> 
> Some would say that the rulers do want their people educated, but they want to control what they learn and stop them thinking for themselves.
> 
> https://newint.org/blog/2015/02/12/education-system-compliance
> 
> A few articles like this one floating about.


Of course they want.

Just I see EU as less dangerous, more benevolent and more beneficial ruler than being in hands of ERG!!!

At least there is ECJ , there is a balance of power.

To offset the giants of USA and China trading blocs are a must.

No country of UK size can face them alone.
The most fundamental rules of economy apply.
It any trade deal between two countries the benefits for a respective country is proportional to their economy.
Roughly if you are 10 times stronger you benefit 10 times more...

So when we come to negotiate our future trades with EU....


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> This goes for all professional training.
> *Those who rule Britain don't want educated society, don't want people to think for themselves.*
> 
> Else who would fall for the lies they spout? Tories?
> 
> Keep masses dumb!!!
> _Panum et circe _


Can you provide facts and links to substantiate the above claim please because I can't find anything?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...mentandemployeetypes/articles/graduatesintheu

*Graduates in the UK labour market: 2017*

There were 14 million graduates in the UK in July to September 2017, following a steady increase over the past decade. This overview looks at employment, skill level of jobs, industry, pay, unemployment and comparison of male and female graduates.

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/11-01-2018/sfr247-higher-education-student-statistics/qualifications

*Higher Education Student Statistics: UK, 2016/17 - Qualifications achieved*

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php/Education_and_training_in_the_EU_-_facts_and_figures

*Education and training in the EU - facts and figures*

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/demand-for-uk-education-expertise-is-growing-worldwide

*Demand for UK education expertise is growing worldwide*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps you should consider the opposing point of view as seen through the eyes of the countries that suffer most from the EU's freedom of movement.
> 
> https://www.voanews.com/a/depopulat...uestion-eu-s-freedom-of-movement/4727358.html
> 
> *Depopulation Fears Prompt Some to Question EU's Freedom of Movement*
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/voice-of-america/


I've said before that I think the freedom of movement issue will soon be bringing change across the EU, but as in the article I don't know what the exact answer would be. The idea of the single market is that it is just that, and to restrict people's rights by telling them they are not allowed to follow the money / wages to a higher living standard just seems wrong. In an ideal EU, the huge differences between wages / opportunity in the different member states would be eradicated, but it will take a long time to get there. As per my point before, we haven't managed it in the UK, though we are (apparently) trying to address the issue through the 'Northern powerhouse' initiative. The EU, to my mind, should do the same, but I fear that nationalist objections would get in the way.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Why do you want a skilled worker from Europe to have more rights than a skilled worker from Africa, or China, or even England.


Because at the moment the single market is a construct of 28 European Union countries. At some point many years in the future I would hope that the Global Union will have its own form of single market where someone can work in any part of the world, though surely there are many huge problems to address before that could be possible. I certainly don't think that the answer is to split things up into smaller, competing countries again. How does that help anyone?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Because at the moment the single market is a construct of 28 European Union countries. At some point many years in the future I would hope that the Global Union will have its own form of single market where someone can work in any part of the world, though surely there are many huge problems to address before that could be possible. I certainly don't think that the answer is to split things up into smaller, competing countries again. How does that help anyone?


Also because of the distance it is easy for seasonal workers to move back and forth, students etc.. Gibraltar often brings teams of builders from Portugal or Spain, even Poland.

Workforce movement benefits the country workers come from too.
Often they come just for a year or so for work experience, to learn the language, see a new place, travel and maybe save up for education or house deposits or even a wedding back home.

New skills are brought back, some money too.

My son is currently working in Italy, just because he wanted to see this beautiful country. Learning Italian.

I am glad he had that opportunity.

I when a youngster worked in Russia, Germany, Czech, had scholarships in UK and USA.

It was a fantastic learning experience.

I wish British youngsters spent some time getting to know Europe not just as tourists but actually working there.

Would be less defensive and insular as some still are.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I've said before that I think the freedom of movement issue will soon be bringing change across the EU, but as in the article I don't know what the exact answer would be. The idea of the single market is that it is just that, and to restrict people's rights by telling them they are not allowed to follow the money / wages to a higher living standard just seems wrong. In an ideal EU, the huge differences between wages / opportunity in the different member states would be eradicated, but it will take a long time to get there. As per my point before, we haven't managed it in the UK, though we are (apparently) trying to address the issue through the 'Northern powerhouse' initiative. The EU, to my mind, should do the same, but I fear that nationalist objections would get in the way.


I agree with this. Not just nationalist objections, but also its own.

The Eu has to take some responsibility for giving companies loans and grants (out of member states' money) to set up in the wealthier countries or leave the Eu area altogether. The Eu and business needs to be more careful and rigid in its investments to encourage more equality and opportunity. That's not the path it's been taking imo. Our leaving and the 'freedom of movement' issues that led in part to our voting to leave shouldn't be just ignored. It's no use wringing hands, whining and accusing. It's part of the reform needed. I can't stand Tony Blair, but I have to reluctantly admit he's talking some sense in the link imho.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Also because of the distance it is easy for seasonal workers to move back and forth, students etc.. Gibraltar often brings teams of builders from Portugal or Spain, even Poland.
> 
> Workforce movement benefits the country workers come from too.
> Often they come just for a year or so for work experience, to learn the language, see a new place, travel and maybe save up for education or house deposits or even a wedding back home.
> 
> New skills are brought back, some money too.
> 
> My son is currently working in Italy, just because he wanted to see this beautiful country. Learning Italian.
> 
> I am glad he had that opportunity.
> 
> I when a youngster worked in Russia, Germany, Czech, had scholarships in UK and USA.
> 
> It was a fantastic learning experience.
> 
> I wish British youngsters spent some time getting to know Europe not just as tourists but actually working there.
> 
> Would be less defensive and insular as some still are.


Well I think if my grandchildren and their friends are anything to go by you'll find a lot of UK youngsters already do go abroad to study and work.

My granddaughter and two of her friends spent 6 months working as "au pairs" in Spain, before she went off to work as crew on a yacht cruising off the coast of Turkey. She then came back and worked in Scotland until she'd enough money to go off with three of her friends to Thailand, Myanmar, Bali, and India teaching English as a second language, before going to work their way round Australia.

As tourist, last year we went to Poland and at the beginning of next month we're off the the Czech Republic and Prague

My Grandson finished his apprenticeship last September and after coming to see me in Hungary, went off with three friends he'd been at school with to India, Nepal and Tibet. They're now in Australia where they hope to work until the end of the year.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I wish British youngsters spent some time getting to know Europe not just as tourists but actually working there.
> 
> Would be less defensive and insular as some still are.


 How do you know they don't ? My DD did a summer job in Spain and she spent a year in Australia .
I did France .


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> How do you know they don't ? My DD did a summer job in Spain and she spent a year in Australia .
> I did France .


But after Brexit?
With Erasmus gone etc..
Work permits more difficult...
It will change...


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/06/uk-issues-british-passports-without-words-european-union

Thought they were supposed to be blue!

*UK removes 'European Union' title from British passport*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/06/uk-issues-british-passports-without-words-european-union
> 
> Thought they were supposed to be blue!


They will be once we have completely left, but we haven't yet.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> They will be once we have completely left, but we haven't yet.


Then why remove "European Union" from the front of the passport but not change the colour?


----------



## stuaz

I find the passport colour thing quite comical really. Turning them blue instead of burgundy is used as some triumph of the UK's independencey....(independent from what exactly I'm never quite sure..)

People seem to overlook the fact that the EU does not say passports have to be a certain colour. They _recommend_ burgundy but it's not forced.

So much misinformation around the EU/Brexit that it's no wonder parliament is in a mess at the moment.

I wonder if they are worried they won't have someone to blame anymore, and people will realise they are accountable.....


----------



## kimthecat

I saw this and thought of this thread.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> I find the passport colour thing quite comical really. Turning them blue instead of burgundy is used as some triumph of the UK's independencey....(independent from what exactly I'm never quite sure..)
> 
> People seem to overlook the fact that the EU does not say passports have to be a certain colour. They _recommend_ burgundy but it's not forced.
> 
> So much misinformation around the EU/Brexit that it's no wonder parliament is in a mess at the moment.
> 
> I wonder if they are worried they won't have someone to blame anymore, and people will realise they are accountable.....


Croatia is the only country in the EU that doesn't have a burgundy coloured passport. It's blue!


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> Croatia is the only country in the EU that doesn't have a burgundy coloured passport. It's blue!


They must be a very independent country then!


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> But after Brexit?
> With Erasmus gone etc..
> Work permits more difficult...
> It will change...


Posters have been describing youngsters working abroad outside the Eu, let alone taking the supposed easy route to a job inside it. The easy part is getting there, even if after brexit they do need a work permit, and/or a visa. The hard part is getting a job.

If the Eu makes it too difficult (and there's no evidence they will) adventurous young Brits will travel to where they can get work instead, won't they, or work at home and have holidays instead. A bit of extra paperwork doesn't stop them going elsewhere now, I don't see why it will after brexit either.

It might even become easier to travel to other countries. Depends on what our government do when they no longer rely on the Eu to do it for them.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Posters have been describing youngsters working abroad outside the Eu, let alone taking the supposed easy route to a job inside it. The easy part is getting there, even if after brexit they do need a work permit, and/or a visa. The hard part is getting a job.
> 
> If the Eu makes it too difficult (and there's no evidence they will) adventurous young Brits will travel to where they can get work instead, won't they, or work at home and have holidays instead. A bit of extra paperwork doesn't stop them going elsewhere now, I don't see why it will after brexit either.
> 
> It might even become easier to travel to other countries. Depends on what our government do when they no longer rely on the Eu to do it for them.


I was talking to my Granddaughter about this when she was over last year. As she said, if you want to visit certain countries like Myanmar or Australia you need a visa anyway, so one more for the EU wouldn't make much difference

https://visacentral.co.uk/visa-quick-check

*Visa Quick Check for British Citizens*

If you go to Australia on a 1 year work permit like both mine have done then you have to take sufficient money with you to support yourself - I think about AU$5000 around £2500/3000 depending on the exchange rate. Plus a return ticket, (£500/700) all of which means you can't just nick off over there on a whim, it's something you have to plan and work for.

https://www.taxback.com/blog/getting-a-working-holiday-visa-for-australia#

*Getting a Working Holiday Visa for Australia*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Then why remove "European Union" from the front of the passport but not change the colour?


Ask the government!


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> to restrict people's rights by telling them they are not allowed to follow the money / wages to a higher living standard just seems wrong. In an ideal EU, the huge differences between wages / opportunity in the different member states would be eradicated,


Seems to me that it's worked the other way by suppressing working wages in the richer countries and making the rich richer while lowering living standards of not only the "poor" but those in full time employment too.
That cannot be right and should never have been allowed to continue, let alone get to the stage where over a third of UK adults claim benefit 
https://assets.publishing.service.g...enefits-statistical-summary-february-2019.pdf

Even if you take out Pensions, it's still an horrific number and this is after the government cutting benefit to the bone


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> Ask the government!


Apparently they ran out of the "British" UK passports and I was wondering whether they used some of the passports they reserve for the British Overseas Territories which would have the coat of arms but not the European Union on the front.

I mean how many people from the Turks and Caicos Islands are going to apply for a new passport each year. Very few I would have thought so maybe they print the location to order as it were?

Just a thought!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Posters have been describing youngsters working abroad outside the Eu, let alone taking the supposed easy route to a job inside it. The easy part is getting there, even if after brexit they do need a work permit, and/or a visa. The hard part is getting a job.
> 
> If the Eu makes it too difficult (and there's no evidence they will) adventurous young Brits will travel to where they can get work instead, won't they, or work at home and have holidays instead. A bit of extra paperwork doesn't stop them going elsewhere now, I don't see why it will after brexit either.
> 
> It might even become easier to travel to other countries. Depends on what our government do when they no longer rely on the Eu to do it for them.


EU is next door. Erasmus is not only for uni students and makes exchanges easy and safe.
Before EU it was more difficult for us , but not impossible.
I was living in Spain years before EU. Getting work permit was a nightmare so I basically lived on my savings.

Luckily could, was offered a job - didn't want to be illegal...

I know how EXPLOITED were people who couldn't get the permit.

They had no RIGHTS, they were threatened with deportation or denunciation.

Often employers promised to obtain the permit, bu once you came it was a different story. They told you to go back you need to pay the costs of bringing you in...
Then once you started working illegally they threatened you.

Obviously without speaking Spanish and knowledge where to turn for help people were trapped.

Now my son who has a place in British uni wants to go to study in Italy instead.

I am not happy about it ... but see the point...


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Then why remove "European Union" from the front of the passport but not change the colour?


Something to do with using up the burgandy passports in stock first . I read that but dont know if thats correct.


stuaz said:


> I find the passport colour thing quite comical really. Turning them blue instead of burgundy is used as some triumph of the UK's independencey....(independent from what exactly I'm never quite sure..)
> 
> People seem to overlook the fact that the EU does not say passports have to be a certain colour. They _recommend_ burgundy but it's not ..


If that muppet Cameron had said so in the first place Remain might have won


----------



## noushka05

Better start praying you or a loved one doesnt get sick.



















https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47646193


----------



## noushka05

Project fact.










https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-50-if-deal-fails-theresa-may-urged-7gd2z3l3r


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I was talking to my Granddaughter about this when she was over last year. As she said, if you want to visit certain countries like Myanmar or Australia you need a visa anyway, so one more for the EU wouldn't make much difference
> 
> https://visacentral.co.uk/visa-quick-check
> 
> *Visa Quick Check for British Citizens*
> 
> If you go to Australia on a 1 year work permit like both mine have done then you have to take sufficient money with you to support yourself - I think about AU$5000 around £2500/3000 depending on the exchange rate. Plus a return ticket, (£500/700) all of which means you can't just nick off over there on a whim, it's something you have to plan and work for.
> 
> https://www.taxback.com/blog/getting-a-working-holiday-visa-for-australia#
> 
> *Getting a Working Holiday Visa for Australia*


Going back years, Australia were always very strict about this: you had to have a job or prove that you could support yourself while you were there - otherwise name a ''sponsor'' who would guarantee to bail you out if necessary.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Apparently they ran out of the "British" UK passports and I was wondering whether they used some of the passports they reserve for the British Overseas Territories which would have the coat of arms but not the European Union on the front.
> 
> I mean how many people from the Turks and Caicos Islands are going to apply for a new passport each year. Very few I would have thought so maybe they print the location to order as it were?
> 
> Just a thought!


Bet your life some of these 'unusual' passports will become collectors' items and be on eBay for thousands of pounds (or Euros) in a few years' time . . . and we'll still be on this thread wondering what in God's name is happening with Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Bet your life some of these 'unusual' passports will become collectors' items and be on eBay for thousands of pounds (or Euros) in a few years time . . . and we'll still be on this thread wondering what in God's name is happening with Brexit.


Hilarious if these 'hybrid' passports are short lived.

They'll have to remove "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" from them soon enough!:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Going back years, Australia were always very strict about this: you had to have a job or prove that you could support yourself while you were there - otherwise name a ''sponsor'' who would guarantee to bail you out if necessary.


Have you seen the requirements for a Schengen visa - just for a holiday. not to work!

A South African friend of mine came over about 6 years ago. I had to sponsor her and guarantee to support her financially if need be. It took her 3 months and 2 trips from Hereford to the Embassy in London to get the visa.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-application-requirements/

*What Documents are Required when Applying for a Schengen Visa?*

The following list of documents are required for any short-term Schengen visa application:


*Visa application form*. Fully completed and signed.
*Two recently taken photos must be attached. *Both photos must be taken within the last three months, according to the visa photo requirements.
*A valid passport.* Not older than 10 years and it should valid for at least three more months beyond the date you plan to leave Schengen area. Older passports with visas on them (if you have any).
*Round trip reservation or itinerary*. It must include dates and flight numbers specifying entry and exit from the Schengen area. You can use the visa consultation services *like this one.* These guys can handle most of your visa requirements such as flight itineraries, hotel reservations along with free consultation over email.
*Travel insurance policy*. A document that proves you have travel health insurance for the whole Schengen territory, with a minimum coverage of 30,000 euros in case of any medical emergency as illnesses, accidents and even repatriation in case of death.
*Proof of accommodation**.* A document that shows where you will be accommodated throughout your stay in Schengen. This can be one of the following:
A hotel/hostel booking.
A rental agreement.
A letter of invitation from a host at whose house you will be staying.

*Proof of financial means*. Evidence that you have enough money to support yourself financially throughout your stay in the Schengen. This can be one of the following:
Bank account statement - that shows you have enough money in your account for the trip. The statement shall be no older than 3 months.
Sponsorship Letter - by another person that confirms they will be financially supporting your trip to the Schengen. In order for this letter to be valid, it must be accompanied by a bank statement of the sponsor, no older than three months.
A combination of your bank account statement and a letter of sponsorship.

*Proof of paid visa fee*. €60 for adults and €35 for children from 6 to 12 years old


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Seems to me that it's worked the other way by suppressing working wages in the richer countries and making the rich richer while lowering living standards of not only the "poor" but those in full time employment too.
> That cannot be right and should never have been allowed to continue, let alone get to the stage where over a third of UK adults claim benefit
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...enefits-statistical-summary-february-2019.pdf
> 
> Even if you take out Pensions, it's still an horrific number and this is after the government cutting benefit to the bone


Hello! 

There have been lots of studies done on whether wages have been suppressed by migrant workers (whether from the EU or elsewhere) and the consensus seems to be as reported by the BBC a couple of months ago ...

*The claim:* Immigration has held down wages in the UK.

*Reality Check verdict: *Current research suggests there was a small, negative impact on the wages of low-skilled workers, which was outweighed by other factors such as the impact of the financial crisis and rises in the minimum wage.​
The Migration Advisory Committee found there was some evidence that immigration depressed the wages of lower-skilled workers while inflating those of higher-skilled workers, but added that the impact was generally small".​
And the studies also show that the economy benefits from EU migrants, (and more so than from non-EU migrants) which provides funds to pay the benefits you mention, including those of pensioners, whose numbers will only increase whether we're in the EU or not.

The number of people claiming benefits is indeed high, at 20 million. But as you refer, pensioners account for 13 million of those, and EU migrant taxes help pay fort hose. As for the other benefits, it is hard to blame EU membership. E.g. since 2004, when the large numbers started to come from Romania etc. the numbers receiving Income Support and Jobseekers allowance has fallen from 3 million to less than 1 million. Still a big number, but not evidence that EU membership is making things worse.

The biggest number (after pensioners) seems to be Housing Benefit recipients, and I don't think anyone would argue that the biggest problem there has been the lack of new builds as per government policy (both Tory and Labour).

I'll stop now, but thank you for responding to one of my posts, even though I still had to disagree!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Hello!
> 
> There have been lots of studies done on whether wages have been suppressed by migrant workers (whether from the EU or elsewhere) and the consensus seems to be as reported by the BBC a couple of months ago ...
> 
> *The claim:* Immigration has held down wages in the UK.
> 
> *Reality Check verdict: *Current research suggests there was a small, negative impact on the wages of low-skilled workers, which was outweighed by other factors such as the impact of the financial crisis and rises in the minimum wage.​
> The Migration Advisory Committee found there was some evidence that immigration depressed the wages of lower-skilled workers while inflating those of higher-skilled workers, but added that the impact was generally small".​
> And the studies also show that the economy benefits from EU migrants, (and more so than from non-EU migrants) which provides funds to pay the benefits you mention, including those of pensioners, whose numbers will only increase whether we're in the EU or not.
> 
> The number of people claiming benefits is indeed high, at 20 million. But as you refer, pensioners account for 13 million of those, and EU migrant taxes help pay fort hose. As for the other benefits, it is hard to blame EU membership. E.g. since 2004, when the large numbers started to come from Romania etc. the numbers receiving Income Support and Jobseekers allowance has fallen from 3 million to less than 1 million. Still a big number, but not evidence that EU membership is making things worse.
> 
> The biggest number (after pensioners) seems to be Housing Benefit recipients, and I don't think anyone would argue that the biggest problem there has been the lack of new builds as per government policy (both Tory and Labour).
> 
> I'll stop now, but thank you for responding to one of my posts, even though I still had to disagree!


This kind of saying really annoys me. After all the Tories were against the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place. Are people that stupid as to believe wages will increase once the 'immigrants' are sent back?

And the austerity measures introduced by the Tories in 2010 were hardly the fault of 'immigrants' either.

Give the Tories a free hand they would not pay out the state pension let alone any other benefits.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This kind of saying really annoys me. After all the Tories were against the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place. Are people that stupid as to believe wages will increase once the 'immigrants' are sent back?
> 
> And the austerity measures introduced by the Tories in 2010 were hardly the fault of 'immigrants' either.
> 
> *Give the Tories a free hand they would not pay out the state pension let alone any other benefits.*


That's a sweeping statement.

I'd be extremely interested to see what facts and concrete proof you have to back it up!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> That's a sweeping statement.
> 
> I'd be extremely interested to see what facts and concrete proof you have to back it up!


It maybe a sweeping statement......... but if they could they would certainly try to cut anything the state has to payout, the tories have always thought about spending on the rich rather than on people who really need it, look how many food banks we have now something never heard of a few years ago, even working families having to use them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Gibraltar is preparing for a blocked frontier.

The loses to our economy could be enormous.

Spain is preparing the siege.


Food storages are being built, medicines stocked, services on alert.

Those who live in Spain and could work from home given laptops.

Imagine the costs!!!


No one who voted Leave cares at all.

I have to stock up medicines for Garfy.


----------



## Elles

It’s unfair to say no leavers care. Why would they listen to someone who tells them they don’t care?

Imho the only way forward now is for the government to apologise, revoke article 50 unilaterally, hold a GE and start again.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This kind of saying really annoys me. After all the Tories were against the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place. *Are people that stupid as to believe wages will increase once the 'immigrants' are sent back?*
> 
> And the austerity measures introduced by the Tories in 2010 were hardly the fault of 'immigrants' either.
> 
> Give the Tories a free hand they would not pay out the state pension let alone any other benefits.


I'm going to do my 'economist' bit here - sorry - though bear with me!

Logically, if migrant numbers reduce, one might expect that the competition for workers will increase and therefore wages will increase. BUT, when companies are only viable because they can pay the minimum wage, then upward pressure on wages through labour scarcity is just as likely to see those companies fold, with the resultant loss of jobs rather than increasing wages.

So while the argument that wages will rise is not daft in itself I agree with you that it is unlikely to happen except in isolated cases, and that some people will find themselves not richer, but out of a job completely.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I'm going to do my 'economist' bit here - sorry - though bear with me!
> 
> Logically, if migrant numbers reduce, one might expect that the competition for workers will increase and therefore wages will increase. BUT, when companies are only viable because they can pay the minimum wage, then upward pressure on wages through labour scarcity is just as likely to see those companies fold, with the resultant loss of jobs rather than increasing wages.
> 
> So while the argument that wages will rise is not daft in itself I agree with you that it is unlikely to happen except in isolated cases, and that some people will find themselves not richer, but out of a job completely.


Tell Corbyn and Unite :Bag:Banghead


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm going to do my 'economist' bit here - sorry - though bear with me!
> 
> Logically, if migrant numbers reduce, one might expect that the competition for workers will increase and therefore wages will increase. BUT, when companies are only viable because they can pay the minimum wage, then upward pressure on wages through labour scarcity is just as likely to see those companies fold, with the resultant loss of jobs rather than increasing wages.
> 
> So while the argument that wages will rise is not daft in itself I agree with you that it is unlikely to happen except in isolated cases, and that some people will find themselves not richer, but out of a job completely.


That of course was the Tory argument against the introduction of a minimum wage when the Blair administration proposed it during the 1997 GE campaign.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, their Union leader still embraces Brexit and probably encouraged his members to vote for it.

Then of course he won't take any responsibility for this. Never the fault of Brexit is it...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-47845057


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> So long as they employ the labour according to the law, who are we to deny them an increased wage, some of which goes back 'home', boosting their economy and enticing the economic migrants back.


That's not good for our economy though....


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Then why remove "European Union" from the front of the passport but not change the colour?


My brand new just received passport says European Union on it....


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> That of course was the Tory argument against the introduction of a minimum wage when the Blair administration proposed it during the 1997 GE campaign.


Was that just before Labour introduced university fees?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Was that just before Labour introduced university fees?


No, it was during the 1997 GE I recall.

And, who tripled University fees? Not Labour, not even Nick Clegg directly even if he was blamed for it.

If the Tories were against tuition fees they would've abolished them.

Come on, they've been in power for nine years now.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> No, it was during the 1997 GE I recall.
> 
> And, who tripled University fees? Not Labour, not even Nick Clegg directly even if he was blamed for it.
> 
> If the Tories were against tuition fees they would've abolished them.
> 
> Come on, they've been in power for nine years now.


Labour opened the floodgates for the charges to be increased.

Comments about the Tories not paying benefits etc seem to make out that Labour have never done anything untoward. I was pointing out that that isn't true.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Labour opened the floodgates for the charges to be increased.
> 
> Comments about the Tories not paying benefits etc seem to make out that Labour have never done anything untoward. I was pointing out that that isn't true.


:Hilarious Labour weren't perfect, far from it. The Tories have made things far worse. I don't recall food banks being common before 2010 and why has the homeless rate increased dramatically since they were elected?

Coincidence? I don't think so.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> That's not good for our economy though....


What's not good? Them coming here or them going home again?

If the former, the various studies that have been done conclude that EU migration _is_ good for our economy.

Overall they contribute more than they take out, and their presence creates demand, which in turn creates jobs, which further benefits the economy.


----------



## Arnie83

This is a piece by Peter Oborne, a right wing journalist / commentator, and a Brexiteer, detailing why he has changed his mind.

Everyone should read it, though it is a little lengthy. I don't agree with all he says, but it really is a very good piece indeed, and challenges some of the more outlandish views of the EU.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/


----------



## Elles

Good for the economy, maybe, not so good for the infrastructure, housing etc, pollution, or peoples’ desires to rewild parts of the U.K. is it?


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> *What's not good? Them coming here or them going home again*?
> 
> If the former, the various studies that have been done conclude that EU migration _is_ good for our economy.
> 
> Overall they contribute more than they take out, and their presence creates demand, which in turn creates jobs, which further benefits the economy.


The money going into their economy instead of being spent on goods and services here.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> This is a piece by Peter Oborne, a right wing journalist / commentator, and a Brexiteer, detailing why he has changed his mind.
> 
> Everyone should read it, though it is a little lengthy. I don't agree with all he says, but it really is a very good piece indeed, and challenges some of the more outlandish views of the EU.
> 
> https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/


I just said a similar thing. Only I'm saying go further than a year extension. I'm saying we should revoke article 50 and start again. Not because leaving the Eu is wrong, but because expecting a bunch of Remainers in government to leave in an expert and orderly fashion is pointless.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I just said a similar thing. Only I'm saying go further than a year extension. I'm saying we should revoke article 50 and start again. Not because leaving the Eu is wrong, but because expecting a bunch of Remainers in government to leave in an expert and orderly fashion is pointless.


A bit harsh on the 'bunch of Remainers' when the likes of Boris and the ERG are pushing for a very inexpert and disorderly 'no deal'!


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> The money going into their economy instead of being spent on goods and services here.


But the UK economy still gains from them being here, so it sounds like a win / win to me.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> A bit harsh on the 'bunch of Remainers' when the likes of Boris and the ERG are pushing for a very inexpert and disorderly 'no deal'!


It's the bunch of Remainers that are in charge, have been messing it up since day one and going for a rubbish deal that no one wants though. More people would agree with no deal imo. No deal, then negotiate with the Eu and everyone else like Japan. 

I'd prefer they revoke art 50, get their respective acts together, then start again in a couple of years. In the meantime let's have PR and a general election to take people's minds off it with something else that's controversial.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Mark Francois, such an angry man but enjoying his moment in the spotlight You had your vote of no confidence in TM in December, you lost get over it!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's the bunch of Remainers that are in charge, have been messing it up since day one and going for a rubbish deal that no one wants though. More people would agree with no deal imo. No deal, then negotiate with the Eu and everyone else like Japan.
> 
> I'd prefer they revoke art 50, get their respective acts together, then start again in a couple of years. In the meantime let's have PR and a general election to take people's minds off it with something else that's controversial.


I would have no problem with revoking A50 and spending time coming up with a detailed description of a Brexit that would be agreed by the EU - i.e. respecting their red lines regarding the single market, customs union and Irish border - then putting it to the people of Britain saying 'This is the Brexit on offer; do you want it, or would you prefer to Remain?'.

It's a shame they didn't do that the first time round.

And I'm all for PR, but sadly neither of the two main parties will countenance it. And they call it democracy.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's the bunch of Remainers that are in charge, have been messing it up since day one and going for a rubbish deal that no one wants though. More people would agree with no deal imo. No deal, then negotiate with the Eu and everyone else like Japan.


Yeah, if only the leading Brexiteers hadn't conveniently either stepped back or stabbed each other in the back when Cameron resigned. It's almost like they knew the chalice was poisoned and there was no antidote other than to let someone else drink it and then be able to blame them for everything for years to come.... 

We'll never know if the general populace would be happy with a No Deal (I personally suspect not), as Our Glorious Leaders don't want to do them the courtesy of asking. I _really _don't want to find out what would happen if No Deal became reality and the next set of 'red lines' involved not being allowed to accept any deal with worse terms (for us) than the EU deals we used to have.



Elles said:


> I'd prefer they revoke art 50, get their respective acts together, then start again in a couple of years. In the meantime let's have PR and a general election to take people's minds off it with something else that's controversial.


Indeed - right now revoking Article 50 and starting over is honestly the only logical option. I'm sure their will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the 'humiliation' and 'betrayal' from some quarters, but quite honestly I'm struggling to find it in me to care about any such opinion from those quarters given that a) we're _already_ an international laughing stock _due_ to the current shambles, and b) this is a massively important and far reaching situation, and behaving as if you're simply lost on a country drive and stopping to figure out where you are (and maybe - gasp - ask for directions!) is out of the question because that would mean admitting you screwed up is, quite frankly, rather immature...


----------



## Elles

Yep. The general public have nothing to be ashamed of. The voters aren’t humiliated. Our politicians voted to ask us whether to stay in the Eu. More people said no thank you, than said yes please and our politicians have been running around like headless chickens ever since. Brexiteers in government haven’t really been given a chance if were honest. I’m not saying they had more of a clue than the other lot, but they haven’t been in charge.

I don’t blame Gove for deciding that Boris isn’t good enough to be PM and withdrawing his support. He knew he’d get into trouble over it, but did it anyway. Good on him I say.


----------



## Magyarmum

For your information ....................

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...74BZ2hwyIcObIsEYdP4C00UhP3cXiNUx7Cbu9CJ5N27Bw

*Mobile roaming after EU Exit*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Good for the economy, maybe, not so good for the infrastructure, housing etc, pollution, or peoples' desires to rewild parts of the U.K. is it?


Workers have to live somewhere?

The non EU workforce will need no housing?

Or they will dwell in rewild....
As UK had really low unemployment and low birth rates then the need for immigration is obvious...

If you just followed the EU rules on work immigration...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> This is a piece by Peter Oborne, a right wing journalist / commentator, and a Brexiteer, detailing why he has changed his mind.
> 
> Everyone should read it, though it is a little lengthy. I don't agree with all he says, but it really is a very good piece indeed, and challenges some of the more outlandish views of the EU.
> 
> https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/


While I don't agree with everything he said it's a brilliant article. Thanks Arnie for sharing it before I did.

I especially liked the bit about Dyson.


----------



## KittenKong

New Zealand source.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/111863111/brexit-brits-in-france-could-be-sent-home


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexiteers in government haven't really been given a chance if were honest. I'm not saying they had more of a clue than the other lot, but they haven't been in charge.


Mays red lines were to appease the brexiteers in her government Elles. Mays weakness & their reckless idiocy have created this mess we're in.



Elles said:


> I don't blame Gove for deciding that Boris isn't good enough to be PM and withdrawing his support. He knew he'd get into trouble over it, but did it anyway. Good on him I say.


Gove is another dangerous self serving liar.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> That's a sweeping statement.
> 
> I'd be extremely interested to see what facts and concrete proof you have to back it up!


You only need to understand their ideology to know its true


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Labour opened the floodgates for the charges to be increased.
> 
> Comments about the Tories not paying benefits etc seem to make out that Labour have never done anything untoward. I was pointing out that that isn't true.


Because New labour adopted Thatchers neoliberalism Mille. Albeit a more humane version. In this article from 2007 labour MPs Jon Cruddas & John Trickett explain. https://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2007/12/tories-party-labour-jon-turn

(It also explains the popularity of Jeremy Corbyn amongst traditional labour supportets). He was the only candidate in the labour leadership elections who stood against this destructive ideology. Neoliberalism has now been rejected by the Labour party in favour of democratic socialism again.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Well I think if my grandchildren and their friends are anything to go by you'll find a lot of UK youngsters already do go abroad to study and work.
> 
> My granddaughter and two of her friends spent 6 months working as "au pairs" in Spain, before she went off to work as crew on a yacht cruising off the coast of Turkey. She then came back and worked in Scotland until she'd enough money to go off with three of her friends to Thailand, Myanmar, Bali, and India teaching English as a second language, before going to work their way round Australia.
> 
> As tourist, last year we went to Poland and at the beginning of next month we're off the the Czech Republic and Prague
> 
> My Grandson finished his apprenticeship last September and after coming to see me in Hungary, went off with three friends he'd been at school with to India, Nepal and Tibet. They're now in Australia where they hope to work until the end of the year.


@Elles


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> @Elles


It's highly disappointing Corbyn has succumbed to the far right rhetoric in his own pledge to end free movement.

Unforgivable.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> While I don't agree with everything he said it's a brilliant article. Thanks Arnie for sharing it before I did.
> 
> I especially liked the bit about Dyson.


This is a bit of which I would like people to take note, because, as I've said many times on here, it seems self-evident to me that the apparent jewel in the crown of Brexit - our own trade deals, woo hoo! - is as ephemeral as every other claim of economic advantage ...

I don't think any country that is small relative to [the USA, China, the EU etc] can rely on the WTO alone. We would be adrift and at the mercy of larger powers as we try to go it alone. It's not a coincidence that Liam Fox's Department for International Trade will have almost no replacement trade deals ready for Brexit.

The EU has just signed a huge, ground-breaking free-trade deal with Japan. If we leave, we must begin complex negotiations to get something as good. *Does anyone seriously think we could get something better?*

Japanese trade negotiators working on the bilateral Free Trade Agreement with UK are successfully holding out for better terms - for them - than they could achieve in similar talks with EU. This is evidence, not opinion, that our bilateral trade negotiating power is weaker than our position were we to remain. *That the 'freedom to negotiate free trade deals', which the Brexiteer Tory MPs in the European Research Groupregard as a red line, will lead to greater economic prosperity is a delusion. The UK will be weaker and more isolated.*

That is why no business organisation wants Brexit and why there is no queue of lobbyists in Whitehall screaming to be 'liberated' from the EU shackles. In a highly unusual and telling manifestation of unity the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress have written a joint letter to the prime minister expressing a deep-rooted concern about the direction in which the country is headed and urging a change of approach. *What exactly is it that Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson know about British business which the TUC and the CBI don't?*​
The vehement opposition by the ERG to a Customs Union is not based on any credible expectation of some financial advantage, but solely on their dislike of the UK being part of a club where governance is shared with foreigners.


----------



## noushka05

Here is another example of Peter Oborne's integrity & why I respect & admire him despite us being on opposite ends of the political divide. @Magyarmum



noushka05 said:


> I don't know Hearst, but I know Peter Oborne. And as I said, he is one of the few tories with principles and honesty and I suspect he must know Hearst and he agrees with him. And as I'm on the opposite political end of the spectrum I don't always agree with Obornes opinion but I respect him because he speaks from a honest position.
> 
> I'm struggling to hear what hes saying, but isnt he just condemning Israel for the atrocities inflicted on the Palestinians? If so. What is wrong with that?
> 
> .


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> It's highly disappointing Corbyn has succumbed to the far right rhetoric in his own pledge to end free movement.
> 
> Unforgivable.


I don't think its a case that some on the left succumbed to far right rhetoric, I think they genuinely believed this to be the case. Now there is clear evidence this in not in fact the case Corbyn & Len McClusky really do need to get their acts together on this!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 399890
> View attachment 399891
> New Zealand source.
> 
> https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/111863111/brexit-brits-in-france-could-be-sent-home


Unlike some EU countries, Hungary for example, UK and EU citizens resident in France have never been obliged to apply for a "carte de sejour" Residents Permit in order to live there. They are now required to have one and have been given 12 months to acquire it.

In essence it's no different to Hungary, although because of the existing law here, you are required to obtain a Residents Permit within 3 months of moving to the country. We have been given 3 years to get our existing permits updated to the new ones which have a photo on it.

Having lived in and worked in France for seven years, - with a "carte de sejour" wading your way through French bureaucracy is a nightmare!

https://www.britishinfrance.com/

*French government publishes no-deal Brexit decree for UK citizens living in France*

The decree issued by the French Government on 2nd April 2019

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/decret/2019/4/2/INTV1907962D/jo/texte


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> It's highly disappointing Corbyn has succumbed to the far right rhetoric in his own pledge to end free movement.
> 
> Unforgivable.


I haven't seen a recent quote, but the UK could end 'free movement' by applying the current EU rules, which have always struck me as quite sensible and which address the concerns of reasonable people, if not the more ardent xenophobes.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

This is cringingly embarrassing, which probably wasn't the effect that Mark (My Father wasn't Bullied by the Germans) Francois was aiming for ...

_My message to the European council tomorrow night would be as follows:

"This is the 21st century and you cannot hold a nation captive against their will. There is no point granting a temporary extension to kick the can down the road in the hope that we will finally ratify the withdrawal agreement, as we never will.

"If, however, you attempt to hold us in the European Union against the democratically expressed will of the British people then, in return, we will become a "Trojan horse" within the EU, which would utterly derail all your attempts to pursue a more federal project.

"A new Conservative government, led by someone like Boris Johnson or Dominic Raab, might vote down your budget, veto your attempts at greater military integration, and generally make it impossible for you to bring about the more federal project in which you so desperately believe" ...

So my earnest message to the European council is simple. Brexit has already gone on long enough.

If you now try to hold on to us against our will, you will be facing Perfidious Albion on speed. It would therefore be much better for all our sakes if we were to pursue our separate destinies, in a spirit of mutual respect.

As Boris Johnson recently quoted Moses' warning to Pharaoh - "Let my people go!"_


----------



## Elles

Blackmail. Nice.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> This is cringingly embarrassing, which probably wasn't the effect that Mark (My Father wasn't Bullied by the Germans) Francois was aiming for ...
> 
> _My message to the European council tomorrow night would be as follows:
> 
> "This is the 21st century and you cannot hold a nation captive against their will. There is no point granting a temporary extension to kick the can down the road in the hope that we will finally ratify the withdrawal agreement, as we never will.
> 
> "If, however, you attempt to hold us in the European Union against the democratically expressed will of the British people then, in return, we will become a "Trojan horse" within the EU, which would utterly derail all your attempts to pursue a more federal project.
> 
> "A new Conservative government, led by someone like Boris Johnson or Dominic Raab, might vote down your budget, veto your attempts at greater military integration, and generally make it impossible for you to bring about the more federal project in which you so desperately believe" ...
> 
> So my earnest message to the European council is simple. Brexit has already gone on long enough.
> 
> If you now try to hold on to us against our will, you will be facing Perfidious Albion on speed. It would therefore be much better for all our sakes if we were to pursue our separate destinies, in a spirit of mutual respect.
> 
> As Boris Johnson recently quoted Moses' warning to Pharaoh - "Let my people go!"_


That man is a total embarrasement. How was he ever elected in the first place??


----------



## Jesthar

Oh, for goodness sake. What a nasty little man Mr Francois (oh, the irony!) is...


----------



## Magyarmum

@noushka05 Here is another example of Peter Oborne's integrity & why I respect & admire him despite us being on opposite ends of the political divide. @Magyarmum

I'd already read the article before Arnie posted it.


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> @noushka05 Here is another example of Peter Oborne's integrity & why I respect & admire him despite us being on opposite ends of the political divide. @Magyarmum
> 
> I'd already read the article before Arnie posted it.


Am I reading that wrong, or is there perhaps a link missing?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Am I reading that wrong, or is there perhaps a link missing?


You're referring to me I assume?

I do get my information from other sources you know. 

And, no,I didn't read it on this thread if that's what you were thinking.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> You're referring to me I assume?
> 
> I do get my information from other sources you know.
> 
> And, no,I didn't read it on this thread if that's what you were thinking.


I think Arnie means your previous post reads like there is a link to an article missing after the first sentance - that's the way I read it, anyway.

Going by your second post, I think you possibly meant another example of Peter Osbourne's integrity was you'd read the article despite being of a different political opinion?


----------



## Magyarmum

*


noushka05 said:



Here is another example of Peter Oborne's integrity & why I respect & admire him despite us being on opposite ends of the political divide. @Magyarmum

Click to expand...

*


noushka05 said:


>





Jesthar said:


> I think Arnie means your previous post reads like there is a link to an article missing after the first sentance - that's the way I read it, anyway.
> 
> Going by your second post, I think you possibly meant another example of Peter Osbourne's integrity was you'd read the article despite being of a different political opinion?


It's quite simple really ..... no mystery about it whatsoever.

I was just replying to the comment, I've highlighted in bold, made by noushka before she went on to other things which I didn't feel the need to respond to!


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You're referring to me I assume?
> 
> I do get my information from other sources you know.
> 
> And, no,I didn't read it on this thread if that's what you were thinking.


No it was just that you said "here is another example" and I couldn't see where it was, that's all.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> It's quite simple really ..... no mystery about it whatsoever.
> 
> I was just replying to the comment, I've highlighted in bold, made by noushka before she went on to other things which I didn't feel the need to respond to!


It made no sense to me either. I didn't know you were quoting noushka because I have her on ignore. Nothing was in bold. It just looked like you were saying here's another example, tagging yourself and then not giving us the example, when actually your first sentence was quoting something noushka said.

@Arnie83 wasn't accusing you of being the missing link lol, but rather, as I did too, thinking there was a link missing from your post.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> No it was just that you said "here is another example" and I couldn't see where it was, that's all.





Elles said:


> It made no sense to me either. I didn't know you were quoting noushka because I have her on ignore. Nothing was in bold. It just looked like you were saying here's another example, tagging yourself and then not giving us the example, when actually your first sentence was quoting something noushka said.
> 
> @Arnie83 wasn't accusing you of being the missing link lol, but rather, as I did too, thinking there was a link missing from your post.


My apologies.

I didn't realise I hadn't put quotation marks to make clear I was replying to someone else's comment.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> @noushka05 Here is another example of Peter Oborne's integrity & why I respect & admire him despite us being on opposite ends of the political divide. @Magyarmum
> 
> I'd already read the article before Arnie posted it.


Fair enough MM. I hadn't been following the thread so didn't realise Arnie had posted the article tbh.


----------



## noushka05

He cares more about this country than our rotten government does.


----------



## noushka05

The state of this country


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

Tim Loughton MP joins Francois & co in what is clearly a coordinated approach ...

If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreak havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.

If an extension runs for another year, you will have to resign yourself to a further year of disagreement and obfuscation in this house, with the knock-on effects of chaos and undermining of regular EU processes, of budgets and other measures to be negotiated.​
I wonder how these Tory MPs would react if the EU threatened the UK in the way they are threatening the EU Parliament. I suspect they would be frothing at the mouth and accusing the EU of all sorts of hyperbolic crimes against democracy.


----------



## KittenKong

Middlesbrough for Europe Facebook page:


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Tim Loughton MP joins Francois & co in what is clearly a coordinated approach ...
> 
> If the EU elections go ahead, it is highly likely that UK will elect an army of Nigel Farage Mini-Mes who will frankly wreak havoc with the European parliament and wreck your calculations about the balance of power within the EU.
> 
> If an extension runs for another year, you will have to resign yourself to a further year of disagreement and obfuscation in this house, with the knock-on effects of chaos and undermining of regular EU processes, of budgets and other measures to be negotiated.​
> I wonder how these Tory MPs would react if the EU threatened the UK in the way they are threatening the EU Parliament. I suspect they would be frothing at the mouth and accusing the EU of all sorts of hyperbolic crimes against democracy.


Maybe it's not a threat, but a warning lol. The brexit side of fearmongering.

remainers to the people - you'll all starve to death, planes grounded, no medicine, unless we stay in the Eu.

Brexiteers to the Eu- we'll vote Nigel and his buddies as MEPs if you don't let us leave and we'll wreck the Eu

:Hilarious

Which is more scary, take your pick.

I shouldn't think the Eu, unlike the British public and young children, are that worried.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 399968


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Maybe it's not a threat, but a warning lol. The brexit side of fearmongering.
> 
> *remainers to the people - you'll all starve to death, planes grounded, no medicine, unless we stay in the Eu.*
> 
> Brexiteers to the Eu- we'll vote Nigel and his buddies as MEPs if you don't let us leave and we'll wreck the Eu
> 
> :Hilarious
> 
> Which is more scary, take your pick.
> 
> I shouldn't think the Eu, unlike the British public and young children, are that worried.


Except - and I appreciate you exaggerate for effect - none of those is actually what anyone has said, and the warnings regarding shortages and travel problems (this latter mitigated by separate agreement) were from the Government, not 'Remainers'.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Except - and I appreciate you exaggerate for effect - none of those is actually what anyone has said, and the warnings regarding shortages and travel problems (this latter mitigated by separate agreement) were from the Government, not 'Remainers'.


Nitpicking and missing the point of the joke. If it as meant to be serious I wouldn't have put 'lol' or :Hilarious

Both scenarios are ridiculous. We aren't going to vote in mini Nigel Farages as MEPs and if we did they won't have any effect on the Eu. Farage himself said he didn't bother turning up because he had no influence. Only an Irish MEP turned up less often than Farage before the referendum and that was because he was in hospital.

It was obvious that neither the Eu nor the Government were going to allow planes to be grounded. Food shortages are extremely unlikely, although most people overeat, and specific medicines are already in short supply, due to a global shortage and unhealthy western populations.

They can fearmonger over brexit all they like. I haven't exaggerated what they've been saying, it is what they were warning about on various Facebook pages, Twitter and newsfeeds, as was linked here repeatedly.


----------



## KittenKong

"We know what we voted for".

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...pean-health-insurance-card-ehic-a8861126.html


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## samuelsmiles3

I'll be very surprised if we leave the EU now.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wrong-...s-swiss-re-vote-on-family-tax-breaks/44887174


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.facebook.com/396013737832767/posts/430966567670817/


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

"I will not stand down until you back my deal".


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/10/eu-summit-brexit-showdown-as-may-seeks-article-50-delay

*EU leaders give Theresa May a Brexit delay until October 31*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh NO, not a another 6 months of going over the same things on here over and over again.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> . Farage himself said he didn't bother turning up because he had no influence


People listening to the liars like Farage is the reason we're in this mess now. Charlatans like him have brought this country to its knees and made us the laughing stock of the world.



Elles said:


> Food shortages are extremely unlikely, although most people overeat, and specific medicines are already in short supply, due to a global shortage and unhealthy western populatio


You're ignoring the evidence Elles. Brexit has already created medical shortages, this has nothing whatsoever to do with global shortages.












Elles said:


> They can fearmonger over brexit all they like. I haven't exaggerated what they've been saying, it is what they were warning about on various Facebook pages, Twitter and newsfeeds, as was linked here repeatedly.


Why not listen to the experts direct? For example, the near unanimous opinion of the medical community is brexit will be terrible for our NHS - its already impacting it now, when many people who voted to leave were led to believe leaving the EU would benefit our NHS.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I'm quite close to a pharmacist. I fact I'm very close to a pharmacist who runs a practice - and she lives right next door to me, so I asked her first hand if she thought Brexit was responsible for delays and shortages of drugs. She said not - the delays and shortages have been ongoing for a few years prior to the leave vote. I haven't checked this with Twitter yet, though.


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'm quite close to a pharmacist. I fact I'm very close to a pharmacist who runs a practice - and she lives right next door to me, so I asked her first hand if she thought Brexit was responsible for delays and shortages of drugs. She said not - the delays and shortages have been ongoing for a few years prior to the leave vote. I haven't checked this with Twitter yet, though.


I prefer real evidence to anecdotes tbh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...pharmacies-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
_Brexit has contributed to a shortage of certain medicines at pharmacies in England, according to a body that represents the sector.

It comes as a medical charity says anxiety over drugs shortages has risen among epilepsy patients because of Brexit, potentially causing them further health issues.

Supply issues partly blamed on Brexit contingency planning have caused an official list of "concession" priced medicines - those drugs for which the NHS will pay a higher than usual tariff - to reach its longest since 2014, when the system was introduced.

The Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee (PSNC), which draws up the list, said Britain's planned exit from the EU coupled with manufacturers' views of the country as a less attractive market had caused these significant problems.

Medicines are usually added to the concessions list when manufacturers or wholesalers raise their prices because of factors such as supply issues. The list is considered a good measure for increases in shortages.

Ninety-six medicines appear on the concessions list, including the common painkiller naproxen and certain morphine products prescribed to cancer patients.

Simon Dukes, the chief executive of PSNC, said: "Community pharmacies are reporting increasing problems sourcing some generic medicines for their patients.

_
Why do you think the government have gagged NHS Trusts from releasing their impact studies on our NHS?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 400104
> View attachment 400105
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/396013737832767/posts/430966567670817/


It baffles me that people could be so easily fooled by dangerous con men like Mogg. Could it be because he speaks posh and has good manners?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I'll tell my pharmacist neighbour next door who manages the pharmacy that she is just an anecdote then. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> It baffles me that people could be so easily fooled by dangerous con men like Mogg. Could it be because he speaks posh and has good manners?


Some might remember the late great Roger Delgado as The Master in 'Doctor Who'.

The character also had impeccable manners yet was pure evil too.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Farage himself said he didn't bother turning up because he had no influence.


Here is the proof hes a liar & this is why its crucial not to vote not to for MEPs like Farage or the tories if you want progressive policies. 
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

https://twitter.com/mac_puck


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> It baffles me that people could be so easily fooled by dangerous con men like Mogg. Could it be because he speaks posh and has good manners?


A frighfully sixties point of view what?


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Some might remember the late great Roger Delgado as The Master in 'Doctor Who'.
> 
> The character also had impeccable manners yet was pure evil too.


Yes I'm sure this is the reason hes duped so many people. Thing is, its so transparent to see what he really stands for & if you still cant see it, you only look at his voting record. Theres no excuse really.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> A frighfully sixties point of view what?


I can't think of any other reason though. His politics & opinion are so obviously toxic yet a lot of people seem blinded to the fact.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> I can't think of any other reason though. His politics & opinion are so obviously toxic yet a lot of people seem blinded to the fact.


Good gracious haven't you read your Marx?

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-does-marx-mean-not-consciousness-men-that-91013

*What does Marx mean "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence but their social existence that determines their consciousness"?*


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> Good gracious haven't you read your Marx?
> 
> https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-does-marx-mean-not-consciousness-men-that-91013
> 
> *What does Marx mean "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence but their social existence that determines their consciousness"?*


And thats why its all the more baffling why so many ordinary working class people today believe that someone like Mogg serves their best interests when in effect he is actually manipulating them to serve his own interests.


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'll tell my pharmacist neighbour next door who manages the pharmacy that she is just an anecdote then. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'll tell my pharmacist neighbour next door who manages the pharmacy that she is just an anecdote then. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Its YOUR anecdote Samuel . I prefer facts.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'll be very surprised if we leave the EU now.


Serious question; What do you think will happen to prevent us doing so? Can you map out the course of events that you expect?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Some might remember the late great Roger Delgado as The Master in 'Doctor Who'.
> 
> The character also had impeccable manners yet was pure evil too.


Damn it, my cover is blown !


----------



## noushka05

The brexitremists who want to jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> The brexitremists who want to jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement should be ashamed of themselves.


And they shouldn't forget the bombings in main line England either.

Do people so obsessed with taking this 'country' back three + decades really want to risk seeing this sort of thing happening again, which is preventable?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The brexitremists who want to jeopardise the Good Friday Agreement should be ashamed of themselves.


Not to mention 70 years of peace between EU member countries.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> You're ignoring the evidence Elles. Brexit has already created medical shortages, this has nothing whatsoever to do with global shortages.


It does have a lot to do with people who think their health is more important than other people's though. That's not Brexit really though as we haven't left yet.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I'll tell my pharmacist neighbour next door who manages the pharmacy that she is just an anecdote then. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


Perhaps you'd like to read this "anecdotal" article then from The King's Fund

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/brexit-implications-health-social-care

*Brexit: the implications for health and social care *

Of course you can always verify it on twitterlayful


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> "We know what we voted for".
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...pean-health-insurance-card-ehic-a8861126.html
> 
> View attachment 400064


In fairness, it has ALWAYS been said of the EHIC that it is NOT a substitute for travel insurance.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> In fairness, it has ALWAYS been said of the EHIC that it is NOT a substitute for travel insurance.


It's not, but the loss of it means having to apply for medical insurance for the shortest of visits, say a day in Holland or France.

To lose this, and indeed the ability to travel to these countries for a short duration, not forgetting the need for International Driving Permits is a regress into the past I can never condone.

As I believe in looking forward, not backwards.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> And thats why its all the more baffling why so many ordinary working class people today believe that someone like Mogg serves their best interests when in effect he is actually manipulating them to serve his own interests.


I've often wondered why this is, how many love the monarchy and how posh they speak as if they want to be like them but knowing they never will. Worshipping these types is the next best thing I guess.

Then, having said that, not in a million years would I thought their Queen would be accused of being a traitor having given Royal assent to the Cooper bill recently by many Brexit supporters.

Then, they also attacked that other great British institute the House of Lords and called for their abolition.

Imagine the irony if they called for the abolition of the monarchy as well...


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> People listening to the liars like Farage is the reason we're in this mess now. Charlatans like him have brought this country to its knees and made us the laughing stock of the world.
> 
> You're ignoring the evidence Elles. Brexit has already created medical shortages, this has nothing whatsoever to do with global shortages.
> :Chicken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not listen to the experts direct? For example, the near unanimous opinion of the medical community is brexit will be terrible for our NHS - its already impacting it now, when many people who voted to leave were led to believe leaving the EU would benefit our NHS.


Oh, but we don't need experts!!!!
What with such brains like Farage, such compassion like JRM such diplomatic acumen like BoJo?

Such knowledge of economics and geography like Raab???


----------



## KittenKong

Likely scenario: Corbyn agrees a plan with May having sacrificed his demands in favour of hers as he's keen to get Brexit passed. After all, he believes he'll win the next GE doesn't he.

May brings MV4 to the commons early next month. It passes with colleagues believing she will stand down. No need to hold Euro elections either.

May does not resign, but calls a snap GE instead with the emphasis, "Let me deliver the Brexit you, the British people voted for, as we rejoice at our smooth and orderly departure from the European Union".

Labour voters, furious at Corbyn's sell out in backing May's deal snub him giving Labour the worst election defeat in history, losing all their seats in Scotland and Wales to the SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively.
The Tories are also wiped out in these countries with Ruth Davidson losing her seat.

May ends up with a majority and continues her reign of terror as PM.

Corbyn dismisses his defeat being a disastrous one. He announces his retirement from politics to spend more time in his allotment. In his retirement he gets a job as a co-presenter of _Gardener's World._

Nice plan isn't it.

God, I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Likely scenario: Corbyn agrees a plan with May having sacrificed his demands in favour of hers as he's keen to get Brexit passed. After all, he believes he'll win the next GE doesn't he.
> 
> May brings MV4 to the commons early next month. It passes with colleagues believing she will stand down. No need to hold Euro elections either.
> 
> May does not resign, but calls a snap GE instead with the emphasis, "Let me deliver the Brexit you, the British people voted for, as we rejoice at our smooth and orderly departure from the European Union".
> 
> Labour voters, furious at Corbyn's sell out in backing May's deal snub him giving Labour the worst election defeat in history, losing all their seats in Scotland and Wales to the SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively.
> The Tories are also wiped out in these countries with Ruth Davidson losing her seat.
> 
> May ends up with a majority and continues her reign of terror as PM.
> 
> Corbyn dismisses his defeat being a disastrous one. He announces his retirement from politics to spend more time in his allotment.
> 
> Nice plan isn't it. God, I hope I'm wrong.


Possible... but TM will just be bringing her Deal to the table as it is running the clock hoping it gets through the more people she bullies, My Deal or No Deal...
We will have May Deal and heralded by all who condemned it from Tories as a great victory of Brexit you ALL wanted.


----------



## AlexPed2393

I think with May and Corbyn now being so unpopular we will see the rise of other political parties if a snap election is called. People are fed up with the pair of them


----------



## Elles

Jacob Rees-Mogg on Channel 4

https://www.channel4.com/news/jacob...e-with-the-socialists-than-with-her-own-party


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Arnie83 said:


> Serious question; What do you think will happen to prevent us doing so? Can you map out the course of events that you expect?


I have no real evidence, so can't map a course of events. It's just a sense I have that our government and the EU have no desire for this to happen. Actually, no, it's not a sense - it's a fact that they both don't want this to happen. Maybe we'll have another referendum or maybe some 'deal' that's not really leaving, though. I really don't know where things are going now.

When I voted to leave I had this naive notion that we and the EU would work together and just sign off a few things and then we would leave. I didn't realise quite how incompetent our government is and how intransigent the EU is. The way things are panning out at the moment isn't a reflection of Brexit failing, it's a result of people not working together to implement Brexit because they don't want it. Neither side comes out of this looking good.

I voted the way I did because, for my own reasons, I believed we could become a better country - we could influence the way the country was run more easily. I would think the vast majority of leave voters would have thought this way too.

The continued and incessant baiting by some remainers on here with selected and antagonistic posts has been pretty boorish. I'm not sure anything will please these people.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I think with May and Corbyn now being so unpopular we will see the rise of other political parties if a snap election is called. People are fed up with the pair of them


 If May gets MV4 passed next month with the announcement of a June departure date from the EU she'll be portrayed as a hero by the usual media and win a snap election, should she call one.

Having said that, Labour and the Tories would be likely to be wiped out in Scotland and Wales. Possibly the DUP in NI too.

Seeing the "British people" are prohibited from changing their minds from the 2016 vote, this is interesting.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I have no real evidence, so can't map a course of events. It's just a sense I have that our government and the EU have no desire for this to happen. Actually, no, it's not a sense - it's a fact that they both don't want this to happen. Maybe we'll have another referendum or maybe some 'deal' that's not really leaving, though. I really don't know where things are going now.
> 
> When I voted to leave I had this naive notion that we and the EU would work together and just sign off a few things and then we would leave. I didn't realise quite how incompetent our government is and how intransigent the EU is. The way things are panning out at the moment isn't a reflection of Brexit failing, it's a result of people not working together to implement Brexit because they don't want it. Neither side comes out of this looking good.
> 
> I voted the way I did because, for my own reasons, I believed we could become a better country - we could influence the way the country was run more easily. I would think the vast majority of leave voters would have thought this way too.
> 
> The continued and incessant baiting by some remainers on here with selected and antagonistic posts has been pretty boorish. I'm not sure anything will please these people.


It's pure fantasy in expecting people to work together in this, seeing Theresa May won't work with her own party, let alone the opposition.

It was always HER deal, she wants to go down in history with it and rejects opposition despite so far losing the vote on it three times.

The fact she has had more resignations in two years that Thatcher had in 11 and Blair in 10 years does not move her one bit.

As I previously mentioned I once had a boss who was very much like May. He thrived on his unpopularity which made him more determined to make our lives in misery as he was fireproof, just as May is until mid December.

As for your last paragraph, do you really think we would he happy with anything less than revoking A50 and dismiss the illegality of the 2016 referendum as fraud? I, for one, won't rest until A50 is ditched and a full public enquiry into the 'referendum' is held.

Conversely, how many Brexit supporters are happy with May and her deal? Very few from what I've seen.

There's as much chance in a No Deal Brexit than there is in revoking Article 50.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Jacob Rees-Mogg on Channel 4
> 
> https://www.channel4.com/news/jacob...e-with-the-socialists-than-with-her-own-party


Not that I have much sympathy for the PM, but I'm guessing Mr Rees-Mogg hasn't looked in the mirror and considered WHY the PM might consider it easier to negotiate with other parties than her own nest of backstabbing vipers?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rced-correct-false-brexit-claim-boris-johnson


----------



## KittenKong

More reasons to make one proud to be 'British'.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/12/pro-brexit-protesters-block-aldi-german-9179231/?ito=social


----------



## KittenKong

The BBC, surprise surprise, are giving widespread coverage and publicity for Farage and his new Brexit party.

As a rival to UKIP with rumours Stephen Yaxley-Lennon could be standing as a future candidate for them this will only serve to split the far right vote down the middle.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I have no real evidence, so can't map a course of events. It's just a sense I have that our government and the EU have no desire for this to happen. Actually, no, it's not a sense - it's a fact that they both don't want this to happen.


The EU have always been clear they would prefer the UK to stay within the EU and have no desire to see it leave, that is a fact and that has never denied. I would suggest however since the WA was drawn up the EU wish the UK would just get on and ratify the darn thing, they appear frustrated that the UK say they want to leave but just won`t get on with it! Our government has voted 3 times in favour of passing a deal so the UK can leave the EU. It seems to me both the UK government and the EU actually do want this to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

Nightmare.
























https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ews/103208/jeremy-corbyn-and-theresa-may-hold


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I have no real evidence, so can't map a course of events. It's just a sense I have that our government and the EU have no desire for this to happen. Actually, no, it's not a sense - it's a fact that they both don't want this to happen. Maybe we'll have another referendum or maybe some 'deal' that's not really leaving, though. I really don't know where things are going now.
> 
> When I voted to leave I had this naive notion that we and the EU would work together and just sign off a few things and then we would leave. I didn't realise quite how incompetent our government is and how intransigent the EU is. The way things are panning out at the moment isn't a reflection of Brexit failing, it's a result of people not working together to implement Brexit because they don't want it. Neither side comes out of this looking good.
> 
> I voted the way I did because, for my own reasons, I believed we could become a better country - we could influence the way the country was run more easily. I would think the vast majority of leave voters would have thought this way too.


It was the 'not leaving at all' that I was interested in, because as you imply I think it would require a referendum decision for that to happen. And were that the case, I would consider it difficult to argue convincingly that by staying a member, the will of the people was not being respected, because it would by definition be their will.

As for a deal being 'not really leaving' that is of course a very subjective judgement. I guess that if we are no longer subject to the EU Treaties, then we have left, pure and simple. Negotiations about a new relationship will then determine how similar to actual membership we end up, but unless we re-sign those treaties, we will still have left.

Thanks for answering, though. It's just that I keep hearing the warning from May or Mogg or someone that Brexit might not happen at all, as if that were a terrible thing, but if it can happen only as a result of a vote of the people, then I don't see the problem.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Likely scenario: Corbyn agrees a plan with May having sacrificed his demands in favour of hers as he's keen to get Brexit passed. After all, he believes he'll win the next GE doesn't he.
> 
> May brings MV4 to the commons early next month. It passes with colleagues believing she will stand down. No need to hold Euro elections either.
> 
> May does not resign, but calls a snap GE instead with the emphasis, "Let me deliver the Brexit you, the British people voted for, as we rejoice at our smooth and orderly departure from the European Union".
> 
> Labour voters, furious at Corbyn's sell out in backing May's deal snub him giving Labour the worst election defeat in history, losing all their seats in Scotland and Wales to the SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively.
> The Tories are also wiped out in these countries with Ruth Davidson losing her seat.
> 
> May ends up with a majority and continues her reign of terror as PM.
> 
> Corbyn dismisses his defeat being a disastrous one. He announces his retirement from politics to spend more time in his allotment.
> 
> Nice plan isn't it. God, I hope I'm wrong.


If and when TM gets her deal through parliament I can`t see her calling an snap election. The last thing I would have thought she would want is a GE and there would be no need once she has her deal through. I know we have the constant mantra of `The will of the people, the Brexit that people voted for` but I doubt even TM is deluded enough to actually believe that her deal delivers that! Once she has got it safely over the line she`s not going to risk it.

I think she will stop on though for as long as she can, she`s not going to walk away the minute she hears Bercow bellow `the ayes have it`, she has put to much into it and taken an awful lot of abuse from her own party to allow them to snatch her hard won prize out of her hands!


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> If and when TM gets her deal through parliament I can`t see her calling an snap election. The last thing I would have thought she would want is a GE and there would be no need once she has her deal through. I know we have the constant mantra of `The will of the people, the Brexit that people voted for` but I doubt even TM is deluded enough to actually believe that her deal delivers that! Once she has got it safely over the line she`s not going to risk it.
> 
> I think she will stop on though for as long as she can, she`s not going to walk away the minute she hears Bercow bellow `the ayes have it`, she has put to much into it and taken an awful lot of abuse from her own party to allow them to snatch her hard won prize out of her hands!


She promises a lot of things that she then reneges on, but she has said that she won't lead the Tories into the next election, and, separately, that she will let someone else lead the negotiations of the future relationship once the WA is passed. I would be surprised if she tried and managed to cling on in either scenario, though I must admit I don't know exactly how Tory rules enable them to get rid of her this side of December if she did try to give it a go. I guess the whole Cabinet would have to resign, and everyone else refuse to replace them ...


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> If and when TM gets her deal through parliament I can`t see her calling an snap election. The last thing I would have thought she would want is a GE and there would be no need once she has her deal through. I know we have the constant mantra of `The will of the people, the Brexit that people voted for` but I doubt even TM is deluded enough to actually believe that her deal delivers that! Once she has got it safely over the line she`s not going to risk it.
> 
> I think she will stop on though for as long as she can, she`s not going to walk away the minute she hears Bercow bellow `the ayes have it`, she has put to much into it and taken an awful lot of abuse from her own party to allow them to snatch her hard won prize out of her hands!


Depends if Corbyn ends up backing May's deal with little to no amendments. It would be the ruin of him and the Labour party under his leadership.

Many Labour voters would see that as a sell out in much the same way the Clegg Lib Dem coalition ruined that party.

No one expected, having voted Lib Dem in 2010, they would go into a coalition with the Tories.

Likewise, how many Labour voters in 2017 believed Corbyn would hold cosy chats with a deluded racist just to achieve his personal Brexit dream, even if it does considerable damage to the economy, jobs, worker's rights and the NHS because of a vote based on fantasy and lies?

I didn't.

I voted Labour in 2017 as I did in 2015, 2010, 2005, 2001, 1997, 1992 and 1987.

The DUP would be unlikely to back the May plan threatening the future of their coalition with May. And May herself is still vulnerable to a leadership challenge in December.

That's why, on achieving a high with much praise in the media, I think she'll probably call a snap election and win a majority.


----------



## KittenKong

This is an excellent article.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/04/12/welcome-to-the-weimar-kingdom/


----------



## KittenKong

Jesus x!*€¢℅& #@%&+-!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47907260


----------



## Lurcherlad

AlexPed2393 said:


> I think with May and Corbyn now being so unpopular we will see the rise of other political parties if a snap election is called. People are fed up with the pair of them


Are the Monster Raving Loonies still an option?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Jesus x!*€¢℅& #@%&+-!
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47907260
> 
> View attachment 400324


I don't think we're in danger of going down that route yet, because the main parties, while hardly centrist at the moment, are not controlled by extremists. The likes of UKIP do need watching and countering, though, and anyone who thinks their views will moderate once Brexit is completed (if it is) is being a bit over-optimistic. They will see our withdrawal from the EU as endorsement of their unpleasant nationalist views.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Lurcherlad said:


> Are the Monster Raving Loonies still an option?


Lord Buckethead gets my vote


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Lord Buckethead gets my vote


Jeremy Clarkson for Minister of Transport?


----------



## Lurcherlad

They can’t be any worse than what we’ve got now


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> They can't be any worse than what we've got now


Oh, yes, they can!!!
Imagine JRM and ERG in charge...

I can imagine worse...
I can imagine army being used... I can imagine riots and police...
I can imagine ERG channeling disappointment and anger towards minorities, gay people, immigrants...

It happened before... it can be repeated to easily...


----------



## Lurcherlad

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, yes, they can!!!
> Imagine JRM and ERG in charge...
> 
> I can imagine worse...
> I can imagine army being used... I can imagine riots and police...
> I can imagine ERG channeling disappointment and anger towards minorities, gay people, immigrants...
> 
> It happened before... it can be repeated to easily...


I meant The Monster Raving Loony party can't be any worse than those in Westminster now - it was a joke btw


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well with Parliament on it's hols for nearly weeks, lets hope we can all have a break from Brexit for a while

_edited for spelling_


----------



## kimthecat

Street interviews in York about the EU elections which we will participate in , a woman said I'm losing the will to live. Yeah !


----------



## cheekyscrip

We here are happy to vote in EU election!
Maybe people are upset because they thought EU is ruled by unelected bureaucrats, we spent 4 bln on Brexit to find out that EU had a Parliament and we can be a part of it?


Farage got a nice gravy boat out of it ... for all the hard work he had done... 

So EU has Parliament, we could protect our borders, control immigration, have own higher standards and a passport in blue...
So why were we leaving?
Ah... the new tax laws and MIFID Two demanding more transparency in finance...


:Rage:Muted


----------



## KittenKong

More reasons to be proud of being "British".









What a delightful pair.


----------



## KittenKong

FB:

Switzerland will re-run a referendum because “voters were not given full information” We have the same problem of not only missing but misleading information. 
1) There will not be £350m for the NHS. For a start we import 90% of our drugs and they are 15% more expensive for the NHS to buy due to the fallen pound. 
2) Turkey will not be joining the EU as Gove & Mordaunt lied. They applied 30 Years ago but have never been less likely to be admitted. 
3) All economic predictions are that Brexit will make poor people, poorer. 
4) Lies about WTO rules meant the car workers voted to Leave. Tariffs and border chaos will obviously force car plants to move out of the U.K. 
5) Even now car bosses don’t spell it out, they fear losing half of their customers. They will though, make an excuse and leave. 
6) Farmers weren’t told that the Brexit plan is to cut import tariffs to zero which will undercut them due to dumping and foreign subsidies putting them out of business. 
7) Voters weren’t told that Trump’s, Cambridge Analytica and Putin’s, St Petersburg trolls were flooding the internet with pro Leave misinformation. 
8 ) Nobody mentioned that there would be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement, which would reignite “The Troubles”. 
9) The much needed immigrants from The EU were just replaced by non EU immigrants, 260,000 last year.
10) We were told Brexit would be easy, we held all the cards and we could have our cake and eat it. 
11) The EU were blamed for our government’s Austerity policy and our government’s housing shortage policy. 
12) The Tory Press, The Sun, Mail, Express and Telegraph told lies like “EU to force our cows to wear nappies”, right up to and including polling day. 
13) As predicted by Remain the pound fell by 15% and we are losing £800m per week. 
14) Leave called this reality project fear.
15) Vote Leave and Leave.eu broke the law with ads and were only fined not disqualified. This is because the referendum was only advisory.


----------



## MollySmith

Nigel Farage forgets to register domain name 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rage-website-url-led-by-donkeys-a8866606.html


----------



## Elles

He probably didn’t want .com, it’s too universal. I’m surprised it’s not co.uk or .org.uk.  

Led by donkeys are advertising his party quite nicely though.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I especially liked the bit about Dyson.


My neighbour worked for Dyson (doing a weekly commute London - Malmesbury) - and as far as I recall, even back in 2005 (maybe earlier) vacuum cleaner and washing machine production had already moved to Malaysia which in itself had nothing to do with Brexit, obviously.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> My neighbour worked for Dyson (doing a weekly commute London - Malmesbury) - and as far as I recall, even back in 2005 (maybe earlier) vacuum cleaner and washing machine production had already moved to Malaysia which in itself had nothing to do with Brexit, obviously.


Yes they did move, because it's cheap labour over there.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> My neighbour worked for Dyson (doing a weekly commute London - Malmesbury) - and as far as I recall, even back in 2005 (maybe earlier) vacuum cleaner and washing machine production had already moved to Malaysia which in itself had nothing to do with Brexit, obviously.


Yes, I remember that. He was knighted for doing so, but as far as I'm aware Dyson's main offices remained in England, thus a British company despite his products no longer being made in the UK.

Just as Nissan, for example, are Japanese but many of their cars were made in Sunderland.

The thing is, people looked up to people like Dyson, who gave the impression UK businesses will do well through Brexit. He was given widespread publicity by the BBC, who are now doing the same with Farage and his new party.

Now Dyson is quitting the UK altogether. Hardly a good advert for confidence in the UK is it!

The vast majority of successful business people, including Deborah Meaden, Alan Sugar and Richard Branson, whether people love or loath them, are staunch remainers.


----------



## KittenKong

Good start. They were only launched yesterday.


----------



## KittenKong

This made me laugh
:Hilarious


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> He probably didn't want .com, it's too universal. I'm surprised it's not co.uk or .org.uk.
> 
> Led by donkeys are advertising his party quite nicely though.


Stupidly he has taken .org

Led By Donkeys are doing a good job of undermining him nicely in my opinion. Unless there are really stupid people who believe they've hurt the halfwit.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Good start. They were only launched yesterday.
> 
> View attachment 400414


She quit last month I believe. The Brexit party was started at the beginning of the year, Im not sure why the media are allowing Farage air time to launch the party when it was set up four monthes ago!


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> She quit last month I believe. The Brexit party was started at the beginning of the year, Im not sure why the media are allowing Farage air time to launch the party when it was set up four monthes ago!


The BBC have always awarded Farage much airtime. He should still be in the gutter where he belongs as a far right party leader should belong, not permitted to spout their hatred and filth as if it was something acceptable.


----------



## Snoringbear

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I remember that. He was knighted for doing so, but as far as I'm aware Dyson's main offices remained in England, thus a British company despite his products no longer being made in the UK.
> 
> Just as Nissan, for example, are Japanese but many of their cars were made in Sunderland.
> 
> The thing is, people looked up to people like Dyson, who gave the impression UK businesses will do well through Brexit. He was given widespread publicity by the BBC, who are now doing the same with Farage and his new party.
> 
> Now Dyson is quitting the UK altogether. Hardly a good advert for confidence in the UK is it!
> 
> The vast majority of successful business people, including Deborah Meaden, Alan Sugar and Richard Branson, whether people love or loath them, are staunch remainers.


Dyson is a massive hypocrite. The move to Malaysia was assisted by the the funding offered there at the time to do that. Now he's moving out of the UK. Odd that leavers idolise him, but they also seem to like Rees-Mogg.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Snoringbear said:


> Dyson is a massive hypocrite. The move to Malaysia was assisted by the the funding offered there at the time to do that. Now he's moving out of the UK. Odd that leavers idolise him, but they also seem to like Rees-Mogg.


Leavers like Farage, BoJo and quite a few other oddballs ....


----------



## KittenKong

A timely reminder of this 2016 article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-a7185336.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true









Closer to the truth:


----------



## KittenKong

And this too:


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> And this too:
> 
> View attachment 400504


I'm going to be annoying again, sorry!

Brexit will not 'wreck' our economy. The word is too hyperbolic and encourages dismissal by those who disagree on the grounds of hysteria.

Brexit WILL worsen our economy in comparison to its performance should Brexit not occur. 'We' have voted to make the future of ourselves and our children economically worse than it would have been. In my view that should be quite sufficient to give people pause, though I know it doesn't sound as dramatic as 'wrecking' it!

If people think that it's a price worth paying to have their own tribal leaders in charge of a few things that would otherwise be subject to greater voting power of the leaders of other tribes, then so be it.


----------



## Elles

Capital letters don’t make something more true, or factual. You know there’s no way of knowing for certain. We haven’t brexited yet, our elected MPs are doing a far worse job than the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Mainly because most of them don’t want to leave and are acting like toddlers who don’t want to leave the playground imo.

It is impossible to ever know with absolute certainty what would happen if we took a different path. There are too many variables. Something may be more likely, but that’s as far as it goes. If we had left the Eu in a timely and structured manner, we could be better off than had we stayed in. As we haven’t left at all, all we can be certain of is that uncertainty over it has had a negative effect for many and not just economically. 

Small cooperative tribes (communities) seem to do a lot better than larger ones and are better for our mental health. It’s not all about more and more money all the time.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If we had left the Eu in a timely and structured manner, we could be better off than had we stayed in


How?

Any credible scenario will do.

I say we will be worse off because business costs will rise, and that makes us worse off.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Capital letters don't make something more true, or factual. You know there's no way of knowing for certain. We haven't brexited yet, our elected MPs are doing a far worse job than the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Mainly because most of them don't want to leave and are acting like toddlers who don't want to leave the playground imo.
> 
> It is impossible to ever know with absolute certainty what would happen if we took a different path. There are too many variables. Something may be more likely, but that's as far as it goes. If we had left the Eu in a timely and structured manner, we could be better off than had we stayed in. As we haven't left at all, all we can be certain of is that uncertainty over it has had a negative effect for many and not just economically.
> 
> Small cooperative tribes (communities) seem to do a lot better than larger ones and are better for our mental health. It's not all about more and more money all the time.


 It's just the equivalent of shouting (on paper).


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Street interviews in York about the EU elections which we will participate in , a woman said I'm losing the will to live. Yeah !


 I can relate to that!


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Odd that leavers idolise him


No they don't - neither him nor Branson; both hypocrites (albeit wealthy ones).


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> It's just the equivalent of shouting (on paper).


In fact it's because in this case italics don't always provide the emphasis that I intended since they are not always obvious on my screen, and using underline falsely suggests that there is a hyperlink.

But if you tell me which you prefer I will use that in future.

I don't, however, think that criticising the use of capitals successfully counters the point that the UK will be worse off after Brexit compared with staying in the EU. That, to me, is rather more important than the typography.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I'm going to be annoying again, sorry!
> 
> Brexit will not 'wreck' our economy. The word is too hyperbolic and encourages dismissal by those who disagree on the grounds of hysteria.
> 
> Brexit WILL worsen our economy in comparison to its performance should Brexit not occur. 'We' have voted to make the future of ourselves and our children economically worse than it would have been. In my view that should be quite sufficient to give people pause, though I know it doesn't sound as dramatic as 'wrecking' it!
> 
> If people think that it's a price worth paying to have their own tribal leaders in charge of a few things that would otherwise be subject to greater voting power of the leaders of other tribes, then so be it.


"Wreck" was in inverted commas and they're not my own words.

Nevertheless, a will to weaken the economy is no better. No one voted for that, they expected the economy to grow.

And of course having not fully recovered from the global economic crash, it's hardly a good time to embrace the weakening of the economy.

Guess we're both wasting our breath anyway as most will dismiss even "Weaken" as "scaremongering".


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> No they don't - neither him nor Branson; both hypocrites (albeit wealthy ones).


Looking at the other Brexit thread, a staunch leaver was asked why he believed Brexit would be good for the UK.

He used Dyson as his top example.

Perhaps that's not 'worshipping' but the person in question looked to him while ignoring the concerns from other successful business people like Branson, Sugar and Meaden.

Hardly surprising seeing the BBC gave little to no coverage towards them.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://reaction.life/stockpiles-an...aign=fabfeed525-15/10+Iain+Martin's+newslette

*Stockpiles of anti-Brexit economic news running low*


----------



## kimthecat

David Lammy comparing people to Nazis on Andrew Marr .


----------



## Elles

Never did like him. He comes across as arrogant and racist himself. Maybe arrogant is the wrong word. Pompous maybe.


----------



## KittenKong

Why isn't this man Labour leader?
Time to ditch the Brexit supporting fossil with Lammy as leader *now!*

This is just brilliant.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2782914365058737&id=283348121682053


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Why isn't this man Labour leader?
> Time to ditch the Brexit supporting fossil with Lammy as leader *now!*
> 
> This is just brilliant.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2782914365058737&id=283348121682053
> 
> View attachment 400563


Brilliant response.

Brave and strong.

We should not appease and we should not condone it, however posh JRM could be or think BoJo is just funny.


----------



## cheekyscrip

And I am not sure as to unicorns....


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Why isn't this man Labour leader?
> Time to ditch the Brexit supporting fossil with Lammy as leader *now!*
> 
> This is just brilliant.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2782914365058737&id=283348121682053
> View attachment 400566
> View attachment 400567


Because he makes stupid comments lie this, comparing modern politics to Hitler


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Because he makes stupid comments lie this, comparing modern politics to Hitler


https://www.channel4.com/news/lord-...s-between-1930s-and-current-political-climate


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> https://www.channel4.com/news/lord-...s-between-1930s-and-current-political-climate
> 
> View attachment 400624


The man in the video isn't going to be relevant to politics for too much longer, also dwelling on the past is not a great way of looking forward. Call him a bimbling old fool if you wish to, stop giving him a platform and putting the video out and move on.

All that is being done by releasing said video is fuelling the hate from both sides of the argument, silence it.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> The man in the video isn't going to be relevant to politics for too much longer, also dwelling on the past is not a great way of looking forward. Call him a bimbling old fool if you wish to, stop giving him a platform and putting the video out and move on.
> 
> All that is being done by releasing said video is fuelling the hate from both sides of the argument, silence it.


This has to be the most hilarious post I've seen since SWC.

For you to argue that about Michael Hestletine would be like me accusing most Brexit voters being elderly with a lot of them having died since the referendum.

And you believe the politics of JR-M, Farage and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon are the way forward? Good grief!

No sir, they are using tried and tested methods from history to get their message across, as are the far right in other countries like the AfD and FN.

David Lammy and Michael Hestletine are absolutely right, and well done to the former for shouting down Andrew Marr and the BBC who're acting like vehicles of publicity for vermin like Farage.


----------



## Arnie83

I've heard a lot of complaints about CAP payments. Can anyone explain why the UK government doesn't put an upper limit on these payments so that we don't give loads of taxpayers' money to the likes of the Queen, the Duke of Westminster, and James Dyson?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I've heard a lot of complaints about CAP payments. Can anyone explain why the UK government doesn't put an upper limit on these payments so that we don't give loads of taxpayers' money to the likes of the Queen, the Duke of Westminster, and James Dyson?


Because they can blame the Eu and it's so complicated finding where it says they can put a cap on the cap is near impossible. Theresa May probably doesn't even know she can.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Because they can blame the Eu and it's so complicated finding where it says they can put a cap on the cap is near impossible. Theresa May probably doesn't even know she can.


It's not that hard ...

Glossary
Capping
The 2013 reform of the Common Agricultural Policy granted member states the option to ʽcap,ʼ i.e. to limit, the amount of the Basic Payment that any farmer receives. The funds ʽsavedʼ under this mechanism stay in the member state concerned and are transferred to the Rural Development envelope. Capping is voluntary for member states and is a specific application of degressivity (see: Modulation, Transfers between pillars).​
https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/glossary/capping_en_en

Someone should tell her!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> It's not that hard ...
> 
> Glossary
> Capping
> The 2013 reform of the Common Agricultural Policy granted member states the option to ʽcap,ʼ i.e. to limit, the amount of the Basic Payment that any farmer receives. The funds ʽsavedʼ under this mechanism stay in the member state concerned and are transferred to the Rural Development envelope. Capping is voluntary for member states and is a specific application of degressivity (see: Modulation, Transfers between pillars).​
> https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/glossary/capping_en_en
> 
> Someone should tell her!


Limit by how much? 5% isn't it? I think there's a cap on the cap. You found that in glossary of terms. Where is the actual information?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This has to be the most hilarious post I've seen since SWC.
> 
> For you to argue that about Michael Hestletine would be like me accusing most Brexit voters being elderly with a lot of them having died since the referendum.
> 
> And you believe the politics of JR-M, Farage and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon are the way forward? Good grief!
> 
> No sir, they are using tried and tested methods from history to get their message across, as are the far right in other countries like the AfD and FN.
> 
> David Lammy and Michael Hestletine are absolutely right, and well done to the former for shouting down Andrew Marr and the BBC who're acting like vehicles of publicity for vermin like Farage.
> 
> View attachment 400639


Try reading your history ...... you might learn something!

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/04/anger.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Monday 15th April 2019&utm_content=M

*Anger*

https://brexitcentral.com/securing-...ter-in-a-centuries-old-constitutional-battle/

*Securing Brexit is the latest chapter in a centuries-old constitutional battle*

http://www.politeia.co.uk/sovereign...-international-not-eu-law-by-dr-thomas-grant/

*SOVEREIGNTY NOT SUPPLICANCY:*
*BREXIT IS A MATTER OF INTERNATIONAL, NOT EU, LAW*


----------



## Elles

The netting preventing the birds nesting in Norfolk is being taken down, due to public protest. If the Eu decreed that netting had to be put on those cliffs, the protests would have had no effect and if the council took the netting down, they’d be fined by the Eu and told to put it back, regardless of what the British public thought about it. That’s what a lot of people mean by ‘taking back control’ imo.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> This has to be the most hilarious post I've seen since SWC.
> 
> For you to argue that about Michael Hestletine would be like me accusing most Brexit voters being elderly with a lot of them having died since the referendum.
> 
> And you believe the politics of JR-M, Farage and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon are the way forward? Good grief!
> 
> No sir, they are using tried and tested methods from history to get their message across, as are the far right in other countries like the AfD and FN.
> 
> David Lammy and Michael Hestletine are absolutely right, and well done to the former for shouting down Andrew Marr and the BBC who're acting like vehicles of publicity for vermin like Farage.
> 
> View attachment 400639


I don't think you get the jist of my post one bit.

I am saying that instead of posting hateful things, or people things deem to be hateful or distasteful, is only giving those that you dislike a platform.

You are feeding both sides of the hate, it riles up the people that feel they are getting the mickey taken out of them, and it also riles up the hate from people who have an opposing view point.

And anyway what does Heseltine's speech have to do with the childish use of Hitler when trying to prove yourself right, as used by several politicians recently.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Limit by how much? 5% isn't it? I think there's a cap on the cap. You found that in glossary of terms. Where is the actual information?


I'm sure a search of the official EU CAP rules would uncover it.

From what I've seen, the EU have said that the total amount of payments must be reduced by 5%, but that any government can voluntarily choose to cap the payment to an individual at any level they want. 9 EU countries have done so. The UK chose not to do so in England. This from Grauniad a few years back ...

The UK government could have stopped wealthy landowners including aristocrats and a Saudi racehorse owner receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds from the EU's common agricultural policy, the European commission has said.

*... the European commission said in a statement that EU rules allow member states to substantially cut CAP "basic payments" to large landowners, such as most of those cited in the Greenpeace report, by applying a ceiling. Nine countries do so, the commission said, including Britain which applies an upper limit in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, where the funds generated are generally spent on rural development projects. "The UK government chooses not to apply a ceiling in England," the commission said.*​


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> The netting preventing the birds nesting in Norfolk is being taken down, due to public protest. If the Eu decreed that netting had to be put on those cliffs, the protests would have had no effect and if the council took the netting down, they'd be fined by the Eu and told to put it back, regardless of what the British public thought about it. That's what a lot of people mean by 'taking back control' imo.


The netting preventing the birds nesting in Norfolk is being taken down, due to public protest. If the UK Government decreed that netting had to be put on those cliffs, the protests would have had no effect and if the council took the netting down, they'd be fined by the police and told to put it back, regardless of what the British public thought about it.

But why would the Government, much less the EU, want to make such a decree?

Do you have any actual examples of such a situation?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure a search of the official EU CAP rules would uncover it.


Try it. I gave up months ago, maybe it's more accessible now.

What about the not basic payments? The payments that encourage poor farming practices and have for years? For the wealthy landowners it's a drop in the ocean, I think Dyson didn't even take his. That's not really the point. It's what the CAP is for and what it encourages that can be seen as the issue, not whether individual countries give a bit less of it to the richest who get the most.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Try reading your history ...... you might learn something!
> 
> https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/04/anger.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Monday 15th April 2019&utm_content=M
> 
> *Anger*
> 
> https://brexitcentral.com/securing-...ter-in-a-centuries-old-constitutional-battle/
> 
> *Securing Brexit is the latest chapter in a centuries-old constitutional battle*
> 
> http://www.politeia.co.uk/sovereign...-international-not-eu-law-by-dr-thomas-grant/
> 
> *SOVEREIGNTY NOT SUPPLICANCY:*
> *BREXIT IS A MATTER OF INTERNATIONAL, NOT EU, LAW*


Here we go again. Far right pro Brexit propaganda sources. I've done my own research thank you very much.

I also learned much about WWII from my grandparents when they were alive. They served and lived through it so saw it at first hand as so many millions of others did.

I did click on the links and nearly threw up. May as well have been headed 'BNP'. Jesus!



AlexPed2393 said:


> I don't think you get the jist of my post one bit.
> 
> I am saying that instead of posting hateful things, or people things deem to be hateful or distasteful, is only giving those that you dislike a platform.
> 
> You are feeding both sides of the hate, it riles up the people that feel they are getting the mickey taken out of them, and it also riles up the hate from people who have an opposing view point.
> 
> And anyway what does Heseltine's speech have to do with the childish use of Hitler when trying to prove yourself right, as used by several politicians recently.


No I probably didn't. Despising fascism is not hatred. I don't go round sprouting hatred such as suggesting Brexit supporters should be hung for treason, nor scapegoating certain 'groups' of people as they do. Not even 'hating' all Tories which is evident by sharing the Michael Heseltine link. I've no time to hate anyone actually.

Yes, I despise Fascism and everything associated with it, Brexit included. History has warned us what this can lead to and to deny the far right aren't using tried and tested methods is remarkably complacent. They don't wear uniform anymore, but come in suits and ties.

Your comment is akin to the ones about Vote Leave breaking the law, with the response, "Remain broke the law too".

Sorry, but it's pathetic to try this reflective criticism. I mean me preaching hate for despising Brexit, fascism and nationalism?

Did those who fought in World War II get accused of promoting hatred by fighting against Nazi Germany? Should countries like the UK have turned the other cheek and let Hitler get on with it?

If your answer to that is no, why ignore or justify the methods used by the likes of JR-M who happily shared links to a German far right group who commented refugees should be shot, the 'immigrant' hating Farage and SY-L?

I'm all for love and peace, the fact we've had it for 70 years and 20 years in NI should never be taken for granted.

I take nothing for granted.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The netting preventing the birds nesting in Norfolk is being taken down, due to public protest. If the UK Government decreed that netting had to be put on those cliffs, the protests would have had no effect and if the council took the netting down, they'd be fined by the police and told to put it back, regardless of what the British public thought about it.
> 
> But why would the Government, much less the EU, want to make such a decree?
> 
> Do you have any actual examples of such a situation?


Yes, the live transport issue. If the U.K. government wants to do fracking, put up netting, encourage livestock to be transported thousands of miles, we can protest, vote them out, write to our MP. Feel as though we are doing something. The Eu wants it, tough, suck it up.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. Far right propaganda sources. I've done my own research thank you very much. I learned much about WWII from my grandparents when they were alive as well. I don't need lecturing from a far right Tory and a link to his source. Jesus!
> 
> No I probably didn't. Despising fascism is not hatred. I don't go round sprouting hatred such as suggesting Brexit supporters should be hung for treason, nor scapegoating certain 'groups' of people as they do. Not even all Tories which is evident by sharing the Michael Heseltine link.
> 
> Yes, I despise Fascism and everything associated with it, Brexit included. History has warned us what this can lead to and to deny the far right aren't using tried and tested methods is remarkably complacent. They don't wear uniform anymore, but come in suits and ties.
> 
> Your comment is akin to the ones about Vote Leave breaking the law, with the response, "Remain broke the law too".
> 
> Sorry, but it's pathetic to try reflective criticism. I mean me preaching hate for despising Brexit, fascism and nationalism? God give me strength!
> 
> I'm all for love and peace, the fact we've had it for 70 years and 20 years in NI should never be taken for granted.
> 
> I take nothing for granted.


But if both sides broke the law, what is wrong saying that both sides broke the law? I think we all despise Fascism, but giving fascist comments a platform on a major news network like the BBC, channel 4 and many others do will only fuel and encourage people who are already fascist. Plus it will make others more angry and frustrated that it still exists.

Just saying it's easier to be calm about things and talk about them in a rational/constructive way, rather than jumping to 100% attack mode at the first sign of disagreement


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Try it. I gave up months ago, maybe it's more accessible now.
> 
> What about the not basic payments? The payments that encourage poor farming practices and have for years? For the wealthy landowners it's a drop in the ocean, I think Dyson didn't even take his. That's not really the point. It's what the CAP is for and what it encourages that can be seen as the issue, not whether individual countries give a bit less of it to the richest who get the most.


Maybe, but my question was why we didn't apply the voluntary cap on the likes of the Duke and Dyson.

I have yet to dig much deeper into the CAP though I see that there are reforms proposed for 2020 which I must have a look at. Not that it will bother us much by then.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> But if both sides broke the law, what is wrong saying that both sides broke the law? I think we all despise Fascism, but giving fascist comments a platform on a major news network like the BBC, channel 4 and many others do will only fuel and encourage people who are already fascist. Plus it will make others more angry and frustrated that it still exists.
> 
> Just saying it's easier to be calm about things and talk about them in a rational/constructive way, rather than jumping to 100% attack mode at the first sign of disagreement


I take it you mean Lammy and Heseltine should have kept their mouths shut as by expressing freedom of speech has only fueled fascism? I stand by their interviews and comments 100%.

Rather like the saying we must have Brexit to avoid civil unrest.

When the IRA were active in the '70s and '80s the saying was, "We won't give in to terrorists".

Certainly, it could be argued that statement could have indeed further fuelled their activities and bombings of mainline England....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yes, the live transport issue. If the U.K. government wants to do fracking, put up netting, encourage livestock to be transported thousands of miles, we can protest, vote them out, write to our MP. Feel as though we are doing something. The Eu wants it, tough, suck it up.


No, you can do exactly the same thing: protest, cast your vote for someone else (you can't vote someone out unless you have a majority), write to your MEP.

And I'm still not very well up on the transport thing: they encourage (emphasis on that word) livestock to be transported thousands of miles?


----------



## KittenKong

Aww. Bless their little cotton socks
:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

I’ve been trying to get across the point that the British public feels as though it has little to no control over what the Eu does and more over what our own government, MPs and local councils do, for the past 3 years. I’ve already linked to campaigns and Eu directives over live transport, I’m now tired of it.

My point isn’t over one specific thing, but overall. The Eu does what the Eu does and one reason people voted to stay in it is because they don’t agree with the Tories and want the Eu to control them. It’s the same thing from the other side. Some might want to leave because they think we have more direct control over our own government bodies than we do the Eu and are concerned that the Eu controls our government and has too much say. Some people might want to remain because they think the Eu can control our government and they like that at the moment, because they don’t like our current government. Some of those think the Eu doesn’t have enough say.

When they say, but our government will ruin the environment/kill wildlife/spray pesticides/destroy workers’ rights, they are saying that the Eu has control over those things and hence control over our own elected government. We have no idea how the people we elected to govern the country would behave if they weren’t constrained by the Eu then do we? For good or bad.

In my opinion this is what is meant by taking back control. Not over whether we can already use whatever colour passports, or slightly cap the cap, or control immigration, but having the buck stop with our government, holding them to account and having influence over them. The people of Britain taking back control. As they demonstrated by making the council take down the netting, which if it was there because the Eu and 27 other countries said so, they’d have no say over. Which is demonstrated by people protesting against live exports from their local port, their local council agreeing to ban it and falling foul of the Eu.

They are just examples, of what can happen when the Eu isn’t interested and when it is. Both examples affect the welfare of other species.


----------



## KittenKong

https://evolvepolitics.com/former-b...DoDWhcN8dvSceVItYWxb5ate79FcxMVVOXDUZES7lp-NE


----------



## Elles

George Monbiot on the CAP

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture

When even big supporters of the Eu can criticise it and agree to possible advantages in leaving it, how much easier for actual brexiteers who don't like it in the first place.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Aww. Bless their little cotton socks
> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 400654


I think there were stories doing the rounds that the Lisbon treaty contained all sorts of things that would reduce the UK to a historical footnote or something. Nonsense, all of it, but even the most rudimentary research seems to have fallen out of fashion. (Having said that I can't be bothered to look up the details!)


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> George Monbiot on the CAP
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture
> 
> When even big supporters of the Eu can criticise it and agree to possible advantages in leaving it, how much easier for actual brexiteers who don't like it in the first place.


I found that a while ago while looking for the cap limit information, and it seemed to me that George hadn't come across it either. It's odd to blame the EU for the £million subsidies to individuals while the national governments have the power to limit them at whatever figure they choose.

But surely there are many ways in which the EU and the CAP can be improved. Maybe the reforms scheduled for 2020 will make a positive difference.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I found that a while ago while looking for the cap limit information, and it seemed to me that George hadn't come across it either. It's odd to blame the EU for the £million subsidies to individuals while the national governments have the power to limit them at whatever figure they choose.
> 
> But surely there are many ways in which the EU and the CAP can be improved. Maybe the reforms scheduled for 2020 will make a positive difference.


I didn't think it went as far as limiting the money however they choose, but it's hard to find decent information on it, as I'm sure you're finding out too. Why didn't Remainers bring it up every time the ag policy was criticised I wonder? Maybe so as not to draw to much attention to the CAP and just how much money gets thrown around.

The Eu seems rather frantic to make big reforms lately. I wonder how much brexit has to do with it. By the time we get around to actually not leaving, you never know the Eu might be one we want to be a member of.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I didn't think it went as far as limiting the money however they choose, but it's hard to find decent information on it, as I'm sure you're finding out too. Why didn't Remainers bring it up every time the ag policy was criticised I wonder? Maybe so as not to draw to much attention to the CAP and just how much money gets thrown around.
> 
> The Eu seems rather frantic to make big reforms lately. I wonder how much brexit has to do with it. By the time we get around to actually not leaving, you never know the Eu might be one we want to be a member of.


Oh, I agree that EU needs improvements and pronto!!!
It cannot be acceptable that Merkel makes decisions on behalf of Germany then turns and tells everybody else that they HAVE to or else sanctions.

Pity that UK economy has to be the sacrificed if Brexit is to be the catalyst...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, I agree that EU needs improvements and pronto!!!
> It cannot be acceptable that Merkel makes decisions on behalf of Germany then turns and tells everybody else that they HAVE to or else sanctions.
> 
> Pity that UK economy has to be the sacrificed if Brexit is to be the catalyst...


More the UK government needs improving and to participate in European projects rather than whinge the way they do and look up to America instead.

At least Tony Blair tried in his early days, then, it became a bit of, "You can't beat 'em, join them" as we all well know...


----------



## KittenKong

The Sun today have accused pro EU supporters of being the intolerant ones, not the Brexit supporters.
Incredible.

Lest we forget this, printed 30 years ago.

And people still believe in their shit.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I didn't think it went as far as limiting the money however they choose, but it's hard to find decent information on it, as I'm sure you're finding out too. Why didn't Remainers bring it up every time the ag policy was criticised I wonder? Maybe so as not to draw to much attention to the CAP and just how much money gets thrown around.
> 
> The Eu seems rather frantic to make big reforms lately. I wonder how much brexit has to do with it. By the time we get around to actually not leaving, you never know the Eu might be one we want to be a member of.


Taking the glossary definition and the Commission comment it does seem that an upper limit can be set. The cynic in me wonders if those who would be affected are large Tory donors, whose donations might even come from the CAP money so generously passed on to them by the Tory government.

I think you're probably right about not wanting to draw attention to CAP though. Not only is it a large amount of money swilling round in the EU coffers, but details did not play a large part in the Referendum. I hate to say it, but soundbites, slogans and headlines had far more effect on many - excepting the good folk of PF of course - than long explanations of how the EU actually worked, why CAP was deemed necessary, what the consequences would have been without it, how its initial form had unintended consequences, how it was reformed in 2013 to try to address some of them, etc.

And now we get Leadsom assuring the farmers that the subsidies will continue one we are out, which must present a dilemma to those farmers who want to leave the EU for purported reasons of protectionism; especially when the promised influx of cheaper food means that the UK version of protectionist subsidies will have to increase further if farmers are not to suffer.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> The Sun today have accused pro EU supporters of being the intolerant ones, not the Brexit supporters.
> Incredible.
> 
> Lest we forget this, printed 30 years ago.
> 
> And people still believe in their shit.
> 
> View attachment 400684


Have you never thought that the strong supporters of both sides may be intolerant? Step out of the bubble and try to see it from both sides

The Sun is a terrible paper I agree


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> The Sun is a terrible paper I agree


I imagine that is why you refrain from quoting it, I imagine?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> I imagine that is why you refrain from quoting it, I imagine?


Don't even bother looking at it


----------



## Happy Paws2

The Sun complete rubbish and lies


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*New dating app launched for Remainers incapable of discussing anything else*
25th September 2017









*OBSESSIVE Remain voters who have lost the ability to think about any other topic now have their own dating app.*

The app, called Single Market, will allow people with EU flag pin badges and 'Open Britain' tote bags to meet and discuss topics important to them, like Brexit, Article 50, David Davis, and more Brexit.

Nathan Muir, a 'European patriot', said: "Since the referendum, I've forgotten what it's like to have opinions about things that aren't the Norway Option and Kate Hoey.

"Dating has become quite awkward, as I have not thought about anything not Brexit-related for over a year, so I now struggle with light, flirty conversation. It's been hard. Hard like Brexit.

"Thanks to Single Market, I no longer have to pretend I care about music, or food, or art, or anything in politics that is not Britain's exit from the European Union."

Fellow unrepentant Remain voter Joanna Kramer said: "I want to meet someone I can share Brexit-related blog posts with, who will listen to Ian Dunt's podcast with me, who will hold me when I cry thinking about the end of free movement.

"If they have an Irish passport as well, my EU flag pants are probably coming off."


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash
> *
> *New dating app launched for Remainers incapable of discussing anything else*
> 25th September 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *OBSESSIVE Remain voters who have lost the ability to think about any other topic now have their own dating app.*
> 
> The app, called Single Market, will allow people with EU flag pin badges and 'Open Britain' tote bags to meet and discuss topics important to them, like Brexit, Article 50, David Davis, and more Brexit.
> 
> Nathan Muir, a 'European patriot', said: "Since the referendum, I've forgotten what it's like to have opinions about things that aren't the Norway Option and Kate Hoey.
> 
> "Dating has become quite awkward, as I have not thought about anything not Brexit-related for over a year, so I now struggle with light, flirty conversation. It's been hard. Hard like Brexit.
> 
> "Thanks to Single Market, I no longer have to pretend I care about music, or food, or art, or anything in politics that is not Britain's exit from the European Union."
> 
> Fellow unrepentant Remain voter Joanna Kramer said: "I want to meet someone I can share Brexit-related blog posts with, who will listen to Ian Dunt's podcast with me, who will hold me when I cry thinking about the end of free movement.
> 
> "If they have an Irish passport as well, my EU flag pants are probably coming off."


I must admit I wonder if I'm getting a little like that!

On the other hand, I have little time for the current - actually quite long-lived now - attitude of 'just get on with it', as if boredom was a good reason to stop trying to find the right way forwards and just implement a solution (which happens to be the one supported by those saying we should 'just get on with it'!)


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Have you never thought that the strong supporters of both sides may be intolerant? Step out of the bubble and try to see it from both sides
> 
> The Sun is a terrible paper I agree


The intolerance comes from the Brexit side who cannot accept the entire UK hasn't united behind them and their beloved flag. They expected scenes such as those seen on VE day after the "referendum".

A forum, or possibly ex forum member, even put up a thread, "Happy Independence Day" , without giving a thought to those affected, yet later bragged about his entitlement to an Irish passport while arguing we should be embracing the loss of our own EU wide ones.

Many call for "traitors" to be hung for "treason" for not coming round to their way of thinking, plus threats and in one case so far of a politician murdered for, "Not putting Britain First".

You could argue the pro Brexit side are intolerant at the thought of having to revert to the past and their refusal to accept that.

I, for one, certainly never will.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> The intolerance comes from the Brexit side who cannot accept the entire UK hasn't united behind them and their beloved flag. They expected scenes such as those seen on VE day after the "referendum".
> 
> A forum, or possibly ex forum member, even put up a thread, "Happy Independence Day" , without giving a thought to those affected, yet later bragged about his entitlement to an Irish passport while arguing we should be embracing the loss of our own EU wide ones.
> 
> Many call for "traitors" to be hung for "treason" for not coming round to their way of thinking, plus threats and in one case so far of a politician murdered for, "Not putting Britain First".


You don't think similar things have been said from the extreme side of the remain argument?


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> You don't think similar things have been said from the extreme side of the remain argument?


I'm sure there is intolerance on both sides - I know I am intolerant of those who make statements but don't supply facts to back them up - but I haven't come across anything quite so vitriolic from the remainers as from those extremist leavers who refer to traitors and accuse those who disagree with them as being unpatriotic. Mind you, I haven't looked for any such, and certainly don't intend to!


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash
> *
> *New dating app launched for Remainers incapable of discussing anything else*
> 25th September 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *OBSESSIVE Remain voters who have lost the ability to think about any other topic now have their own dating app.*
> 
> The app, called Single Market, will allow people with EU flag pin badges and 'Open Britain' tote bags to meet and discuss topics important to them, like Brexit, Article 50, David Davis, and more Brexit.
> 
> Nathan Muir, a 'European patriot', said: "Since the referendum, I've forgotten what it's like to have opinions about things that aren't the Norway Option and Kate Hoey.
> 
> "Dating has become quite awkward, as I have not thought about anything not Brexit-related for over a year, so I now struggle with light, flirty conversation. It's been hard. Hard like Brexit.
> 
> "Thanks to Single Market, I no longer have to pretend I care about music, or food, or art, or anything in politics that is not Britain's exit from the European Union."
> 
> Fellow unrepentant Remain voter Joanna Kramer said: "I want to meet someone I can share Brexit-related blog posts with, who will listen to Ian Dunt's podcast with me, who will hold me when I cry thinking about the end of free movement.
> 
> "If they have an Irish passport as well, my EU flag pants are probably coming off."


 That actually did make me laugh!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure there is intolerance on both sides - I know I am intolerant of those who make statements but don't supply facts to back them up - but I haven't come across anything quite so vitriolic from the remainers as from those extremist leavers who refer to traitors and accuse those who disagree with them as being unpatriotic. Mind you, I haven't looked for any such, and certainly don't intend to!


Brexit campaign was based on lies. Empty slogans and misinformation.
All facts were dismissed as scaremongering and obviously we don't need experts...

As well as " it cannot be because of Brexit as it hasn't happened yet".

I don't know how damaging your own economy could be patriotic?

Imagine if there was no referendum, the steady growth of our economy continued, car industry etc... carried on as before, 4 bln was spent on NHS instead of Brexit preparations...

Or you think ERG and JRM whose sole purpose is deregulation, low taxes for the rich and making money playing against the pound and British economy is patriotic?

Ok, Brexit will do some harm to EU, yes, but chiefly to us all.

How stupid is that?

" Get on with it" ... if you make a mistake and you realise it was a bad investment, or you took a wrong way only a stubborn fool will " get on with it".

People were lied to.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> That actually did make me laugh!!


OK then ..... here's another one for you! Enjoy!

*News Thump*

*Tuesday 16 April 2019 by Pete Redfern*

*Nigel Farage livid after learning that Stonehenge was built by Turkish immigrants*









*Nigel Farage is throwing a wobbly this morning after learning that Stonehenge was constructed by immigrants.*

Researchers in London compared DNA extracted from Neolithic human remains found in Britain with that of people alive at the same time in Europe, and found that inhabitants appeared to have travelled from Anatolia (modern Turkey) to Iberia before winding their way north to Britain.

Addressing all four followers of his new Brexit Party this morning, Farage ranted, "I've always said that Europeans have been coming over here, stealing British workers' jobs, and this has clearly been going on for six thousand years.

"I bet there were some honest, hardworking British builders who had given a quote for Stonehenge, only be undercut by this European lot, who doubtless delivered the project three weeks ahead of schedule and at half the cost. The bastards."

Brexit Party contender Annunziata Rees-Mogg added, "One manifesto pledge of the Brexit party will be to tear down this monument to European bureaucracy and replace it with a burger van in a lay-by.

"That's what you commoners like, right?"


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit campaign was based on lies. Empty slogans and misinformation.
> All facts were dismissed as scaremongering and obviously we don't need experts...
> 
> As well as " it cannot be because of Brexit as it hasn't happened yet".
> 
> *I don't know how damaging your own economy could be patriotic?*
> 
> Imagine if there was no referendum, the steady growth of our economy continued, car industry etc... carried on as before, 4 bln was spent on NHS instead of Brexit preparations...
> 
> Or you think ERG and JRM whose sole purpose is deregulation, low taxes for the rich and making money playing against the pound and British economy is patriotic?
> 
> Ok, Brexit will do some harm to EU, yes, but chiefly to us all.
> 
> How stupid is that?
> 
> " Get on with it" ... if you make a mistake and you realise it was a bad investment, or you took a wrong way only a stubborn fool will " get on with it".
> 
> People were lied to.


I guess it all comes down to whether one views the (imo) dubious idea of regaining a lost 'independence' as being of greater good to the country than maximising the economic prosperity of the population. If one does, then supporting Brexit can be equated with patriotism, but I think it is a much more shaky argument than the likes of Francois would no doubt contend.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I must admit I wonder if I'm getting a little like that!
> 
> On the other hand, I have little time for the current - actually quite long-lived now - attitude of 'just get on with it', as if boredom was a good reason to stop trying to find the right way forwards and just implement a solution (which happens to be the one supported by those saying we should 'just get on with it'!)


You're not the only one ......

VIEWPOINT

Quote of the day
*"I know that, on both sides of the Channel, everyone, including myself, is exhausted with Brexit, which is completely understandable. However, this is not an excuse to say 'let's get it over with,' just because we're tired.'' *
_EU Council President Donald Tusk calls on European leader to keep their focus._

And what a turn up for the books.......or words to that effect ......who'd have thought it?

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/nigel-f...=iNews - Daily RSS Newsletter&utm_source=hs_e

*Nigel Farage is the 'only thing that can save' EU from Brexit crisis spreading, claims Guy Verhofstadt*


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> You're not the only one ......
> 
> VIEWPOINT
> 
> Quote of the day
> *"I know that, on both sides of the Channel, everyone, including myself, is exhausted with Brexit, which is completely understandable. However, this is not an excuse to say 'let's get it over with,' just because we're tired.'' *
> _EU Council President Donald Tusk calls on European leader to keep their focus._


What a _very_ intelligent chap that Mr Tusk is!! :Smuggrin


----------



## Elles

Oh. Putting all their energies into reform and renewal because of Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I guess it all comes down to whether one views the (imo) dubious idea of regaining a lost 'independence' as being of greater good to the country than maximising the economic prosperity of the population. If one does, then supporting Brexit can be equated with patriotism, but I think it is a much more shaky argument than the likes of Francois would no doubt contend.


The independence was never lost, it was not invasion nor occupation - like we in Poland had Soviet Army till 1992!

Talking about freedom - freedom of movement will be lost after Brexit!!!
Also the very important availability of ECJ should you have the need to sue you government of failing your human rights for example!

So much for independence!

Government of Gibraltar was taken to the ECJ by a lesbian couple who wanted to get married.
They won and with the support of majority of Gibraltarians gay people can get married here!
Not only local, any gay couple!!!

Yes, it is good to be able to stand up to your government!!!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0415/1042810-nancy-pelosi-dublin-visit/


----------



## KittenKong

Not at all surprised to hear this.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Because he makes stupid comments lie this, comparing modern politics to Hitler


Lammy isn't making stupid comments. The language hard right politicians are using today is absolutely comparable.












AlexPed2393 said:


> But if both sides broke the law, what is wrong saying that both sides broke the law? I think we all despise Fascism, but giving fascist comments a platform on a major news network like the BBC, channel 4 and many others do will only fuel and encourage people who are already fascist. Plus it will make others more angry and frustrated that it still exists.
> 
> Just saying it's easier to be calm about things and talk about them in a rational/constructive way, rather than jumping to 100% attack mode at the first sign of disagreement


Both sides didn't beak the law. Only the leave campaign broke the law. Only the leave campaign whipped up hatred of immigrants & refugees.

I agree the media should not give a platform to fascists - to racists in general. They should not given oxygen to hate mongers like Farage, this is why we're the mess we're in the mess we're in now with brexit. The media have normalised hate speak now. Many ordinary people cant even see Farage for toxic little racist he is. Farage has poisoned our politics.

The BBCs reputation is in tatters.





















Elles said:


> I'
> We have no idea how the people we elected to govern the country would behave if they weren't constrained by the Eu then do we? For good or bad.
> 
> s.


We do if we know their ideology Elles. Having read the Shock Doctrine - you should be fully aware



Elles said:


> George Monbiot on the CAP
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/brexit-leaving-eu-farming-agriculture
> 
> When even big supporters of the Eu can criticise it and agree to possible advantages in leaving it, how much easier for actual brexiteers who don't like it in the first place.


This is why I respect George, because he is principled and believes in speaking truth to power, wherever that power may be, which is what 'real' journalists should do. And I can assure he is not a big supporter of the EU. He describes himself as a Eurosceptic remainer. If people actually read & absorbed ALL his articles relating to brexit, rather than cherry picking bits to fit their extreme confirmation bias, they would be rooting to remain.



AlexPed2393 said:


> You don't think similar things have been said from the extreme side of the remain argument?


The BNP, NF, NA, EDL, UKIP, hard-right Tories, assorted racists, nazis, fascists and bigots are in the leave camp Alex. A million remainers marched in London - not one arrest. The violence is coming from one side & one side alone. I could NEVER be on that side no matter how strongly I felt about leaving the EU.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> David Lammy comparing people to Nazis on Andrew Marr .


----------



## AlexPed2393

The BNP, NF, NA, EDL, UKIP, hard-right Tories, assorted racists, nazis, fascists and bigots are in the leave camp Alex. A million remainers marched in London - not one arrest. The violence is coming from one side & one side alone. I could NEVER be on that side no matter how strongly I felt about leaving the EU.[/QUOTE]

You're not getting my argument one bit. I'm not denying that said people want to leave the EU, you simply aren't looking for the people on the hard-left that are shutting down debates because of a micro-aggression or denying others of free speech instead of debating the points.

Look for similarly hateful people from either side and you will find them, those on the hard right are easier to demonise (quite rightly to a certain extent) as they do not represent progressive thinking and/or modern culture when at the extreme end.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Lammy isn't making stupid comments. The language hard right politicians are using today is absolutely comparable.


As a politician and a role model, whether he likes it or not, he needs to have a more nuanced argument. Rather than Hitler did it, and you did it, so you are just like Hitler.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> As a politician and a role model, whether he likes it or not, he needs to have a more nuanced argument. Rather than Hitler did it, and you did it, so you are just like Hitler.


If you actually listened to him, he does have a nuanced argument. Politicians like Farage & co are once again fanning the flames of hate & the corporate media are normalising them. This is just plain fact.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> If you actually listened to him, he does have a nuanced argument. Politicians like Farage & co are once again fanning the flames of hate & the corporate media are normalising them. This is just plain fact.


I read his post, where he mentions Nazi's and I read others. I am not denying he is getting hate mail. His argument was childish or at least worded poorly for a politician/role model


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> I read his post, where he mentions Nazi's and I read others. I am not denying he is getting hate mail. His argument was childish or at least worded poorly for a politician/role model


It is always more impressive if people just ''rise above'' it rather than being seen to stoop to the same level.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> It is always more impressive if people just ''rise above'' it rather than being seen to stoop to the same level.


Agree, can't be seen to rise too highly though or you'll be said to look down on people. Can't win :Hilarious


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> It is always more impressive if people just ''rise above'' it rather than being seen to stoop to the same level.


I agree with that. so long as the rising above doesn't equate with ignoring.

We do still have to be aware of any shift in people's perception of the sort of abuse that Lammy has received, and make very sure that it is never accepted, let alone normalised. I do get the impression that the current climate has encouraged some of those with extreme views to crawl out from under their rocks. The (unbelievably ignorant) people writing what @noushka05 has posted should be found and fined, heavily.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> The (unbelievably ignorant) people writing what @noushka05 has posted should be found and fined, heavily


Why and under what legislation?

Not agreeing with what they say but you can't fine people willy nilly


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Agree, can't be seen to rise too highly though or you'll be said to look down on people. Can't win :Hilarious


 Not on this thread you can't; that's a fact!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I agree with that. so long as the rising above doesn't equate with ignoring.
> 
> We do still have to be aware of any shift in people's perception of the sort of abuse that Lammy has received, and make very sure that it is never accepted, let alone normalised. I do get the impression that the current climate has encouraged some of those with extreme views to crawl out from under their rocks. The (unbelievably ignorant) people writing what @noushka05 has posted should be found and fined, heavily.


These people have always existed, they've always talked like this. Should we hide it, or address it? This kind of thing is more widely reported, more topical and less tolerated than it was. I'd agree that our perception has altered. For the better.

People in Lammy's position need to watch their language too and not encourage it with stupid comments themselves.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Why and under what legislation?
> 
> Not agreeing with what they say but you can't fine people willy nilly


This should do ...

From Wiki

Hate speech laws in England and Wales are found in several statutes. Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, disability, nationality (including citizenship), *ethnic or national origin*, religion, gender identity, or sexual orientation is forbidden.[1][2][3][4] Any communication which is threatening or abusive, and is intended to harass, alarm, or distress someone is forbidden.[5] *The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both*.[6]​


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> This should do ...
> 
> From Wiki
> 
> Hate speech laws in England and Wales are found in several statutes. Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, disability, nationality (including citizenship), *ethnic or national origin*, religion, gender identity, or sexual orientation is forbidden.[1][2][3][4] Any communication which is threatening or abusive, and is intended to harass, alarm, or distress someone is forbidden.[5] *The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both*.[6]​


Yarp, if it falls under that then I'm with you


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I read his post, where he mentions Nazi's and I read others. I am not denying he is getting hate mail. His argument was childish or at least worded poorly for a politician/role model


His argument was based on evidence - we KNOW certain prominent right wing politicians have been in talks with white supremacist Steve Bannon. we KNOW these politicians engage in dog whistle politics. Which bits of Lammys interview do you dispute exactly?. Of course Lammy is going to get hate mail for having the courage to speak out about it!



Elles said:


> These people have always existed, they've always talked like this. Should we hide it, or address it? This kind of thing is more widely reported, more topical and less tolerated than it was. I'd agree that our perception has altered. For the better.
> 
> People in Lammy's position need to watch their language too and not encourage it with stupid comments themselves.


These hateful people have been emboldened by Farage & co, emboldened by the right wing gutter press - emboldened by brexit. People in Lammys position should use their platform to call out the hate mongers & their enablers in the media.

Apologists of Farage & the tory right need to take a long hard look in the mirror.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> His argument was based on evidence - we KNOW certain prominent right wing politicians have been in talks with white supremacist Steve Bannon. we KNOW these politicians engage in dog whistle politics. Which bits of Lammys interview do you dispute exactly?. Of course Lammy is going to get hate mail for having the courage to speak out about it!


You're not getting what I am saying.

He is using Hitler as a reference because someone disagrees with him. Instead of breaking down their point, he is comparing them to the most hated man in history. Lazy and childish way to win the argument


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You're not getting what I am saying.
> 
> He is using Hitler as a reference because someone disagrees with him. Instead of breaking down their point, he is comparing them to the most hated man in history. Lazy and childish way to win the argument


Have you actually listened to the interview? Here is the transcript.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Have you actually listened to the interview? Here is the transcript.


Are you saying that the ERG wants to take over the world and make it one race, kill off all Jewish people, torture people endlessly, needlessly kill innocents, use gas weapons etc etc etc Stupid argument


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Are you saying that the ERG wants to take over the world and make it one race, kill off all Jewish people, torture people endlessly, needlessly kill innocents, use gas weapons etc etc etc Stupid argument


Seriously?? I'm saying the ERG is a dangerous extremist entity. I'm saying that the far right are on the rise because certain politicians are deliberately stoking hate with their dog whistle politics. I'm saying the far right are highly dangerous. I'm saying we must speak out & stand against the hatemongers. Dont know about you, but I intend to be on the right side of history.


----------



## Elles

Of course Hitler was also a vegetarian, but no one says they couldn't be a vegetarian because Hitler was one. No one says to earthling Ed that his argument about not being able to kill people if we didn't kill and eat animals is preposterous, because Hitler was a vegetarian who didn't kill animals.

Hindus are vegetarians who believe life and cows are sacred

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-india-killed-at-least-44-people-report-finds

Vegetarians are dangerous and violent, I could never be one, however much I wanted to not eat meat. I'd have to choose the rabbit, not the strawberry.

Stupid argument and what psychos and the violent do is down to them, no one else, yes?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> His argument was based on evidence - we KNOW certain prominent right wing politicians have been in talks with white supremacist Steve Bannon. we KNOW these politicians engage in dog whistle politics. Which bits of Lammys interview do you dispute exactly?. Of course Lammy is going to get hate mail for having the courage to speak out about it!


As I have said several times now, but you seem a little blind to.

Comparing modern day groups to Nazi's and Hitler. I elaborated in all of my other replies.


----------



## Elles

Just a suggestion, but can we all try to use the proper quote system please. It kind of makes the ignore function useless if others you don’t have on ignore copy and paste what those you do have said. 

I know I get into trouble for not @ ing people or quoting so they know who I’m replying to, but at least it’s not making you read stuff you don’t want to lol.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Seriously?? I'm saying the ERG is a dangerous extremist entity. I'm saying that the far right are on the rise because certain politicians are deliberately stoking hate with their dog whistle politics. I'm saying the far right are highly dangerous. I'm saying we must speak out & stand against the hatemongers. Dont know about you, but I intend to be on the right side of history.


You seem unwilling to agree and keep bringing up different points and references that aren't entirely relevant.


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> Are you saying that the ERG wants to take over the world and make it one race, kill off all Jewish people, torture people endlessly, needlessly kill innocents, use gas weapons etc etc etc Stupid argument


It's not the case that one day someone is sending Windrush immigrants home and portraying Islam as a danger and the next they are goose-stepping into the Sudetenland. There are many steps in between.

What we have to judge is at what point we choose to stop the progress along a path that history warns us about. And the danger is that we don't do it soon enough.


----------



## Elles

Everyone jumped up angry at the Windrush situation. The conservatives and TM were slaughtered over it. It doesn’t compare. Islam is more likely to have us doing their version of goosestepping according to extremist islamists who want it. If we need to be careful, we can’t ignore them either, nor should moderate Muslims. We aren’t going down that path. 

Our laws have become stronger against it, not weaker and the majority, however they voted, don’t want the horrors repeated either and it’s grossly unfair and irresponsible of a politician to suggest they do, but then he seems to like making controversial and insulting statements doesn’t he.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You seem unwilling to agree and keep bringing up different points and references that aren't entirely relevant.


I'm unwilling to agree because I don't agree with you. Its blatantly obvious this country is in grave danger of lurching even further to the right. Some people seem to have learned nothing from history.



Arnie83 said:


> It's not the case that one day someone is sending Windrush immigrants home and portraying Islam as a danger and the next they are goose-stepping into the Sudetenland. There are many steps in between.
> 
> What we have to judge is at what point we choose to stop the progress along a path that history warns us about. And the danger is that we don't do it soon enough.


Well said Arnie.

This.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Everyone jumped up angry at the Windrush situation. The conservatives and TM were slaughtered over it. It doesn't compare. Islam is more likely to have us doing their version of goosestepping according to extremist islamists who want it. If we need to be careful, we can't ignore them either, nor should moderate Muslims. We aren't going down that path.
> 
> Our laws have become stronger against it, not weaker and the majority, however they voted, don't want the horrors repeated either and it's grossly unfair and irresponsible of a politician to suggest they do, but then he seems to like making controversial and insulting statements doesn't he.


The tories hostile environment rolls on Elles! Islam is a peaceful religion the vast majority of Muslims aren't extremists Who is ignoring Islamist extremists? The tories have made this country more prone to terrorist attacks with their massive cuts to the police!

Yet we have right wing politicians engaging in dog whistle politics, cosying up to fascists & a dangerous white supremacist. No wonder the far right is on the rise. 4

Lammy nor Hesletine said any such thing?  _and the majority, however they voted, don't want the horrors repeated either and it's grossly unfair and irresponsible of a politician to suggest they do, but then he seems to like making controversial and insulting statements doesn't he
_
But people who are apologists for Farage, the tory right - are complicit.


----------



## noushka05

Video is on this link >>>

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1118589204068433920


----------



## noushka05

https://alivewithcancer.com/2019/04/16/how-brexit-nearly-derailed-a-key-cancer-trial/

Brexit is already having an impact on the flow of highly skilled experts into the UK.

Half of PhD students funded by Cancer Research and 76% of postdoctoral scientists at their institutes come from outside of the UK. There have been declining proportions of EU applicants at some of their institutes since the EU referendum result. In 2016, 28% of post-doc applicants at CRUK's Glasgow-based Beatson Institute, a leading cancer research centre, were from the EU, falling to 13% of applicants in 2018_._

In addition, some oncologists now report a growing shortage of key drugs, which may be the result of stockpiling pre-Brexit."We are having to stockpile certain cancer drugs and indeed some clinical trials may not able to continue as we have not stockpiled the relevant drugs," one said.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Everyone jumped up angry at the Windrush situation. The conservatives and TM were slaughtered over it. It doesn't compare. Islam is more likely to have us doing their version of goosestepping according to extremist islamists who want it. If we need to be careful, we can't ignore them either, nor should moderate Muslims. We aren't going down that path.


It doesn't compare to what? To full-on Nazi? Of course not! But to the first tiny stones that come rolling down the hill and end up as an avalanche? I hope you are right, but I can't be absolutely sure.

What I would say is that the reaction to Windrush and the 'hostile environment' will certainly have made the Tories - not least the Home Secretary whose idea it was - think twice about their tactics, but I doubt it will have changed their underlying mindset.

Re Islam; you, along with most everyone else contributing to this thread, are far from stupid and will rightly see the threat from a vanishingly small minority of fanatical extremists. But there are plenty of people out there - including the official political party called UKIP - who extrapolate that threat to cover the whole of Islam. We know that certain religious groups have been unfairly singled out before, and we have seen where it led. Are these more of those tiny stones?

While you, and I, would not go as far as Lammy, we should be very careful about criticising and dismissing him, and not least because that adds further encouragement to those of whom we should be much more wary.

/sermon


----------



## noushka05

C4 are doing sterling work exposing the lying, cheating racists who have corrupted our democracy. C4 shames our so called state broadcaster.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Islam is more likely to have us doing their version of goosestepping according to extremist Islamists who want it. If we need to be careful, we can't ignore them either, nor should moderate Muslims. We aren't going down that path.
> 
> Our laws have become stronger against it, not weaker and the majority, however they voted, don't want the horrors repeated either and it's grossly unfair and irresponsible of a politician to suggest they do, but then he seems to like making controversial and insulting statements doesn't he.


I can assure you the majority of Muslims are as against extremists in much the same way most 'white' people are against white supremacy and fascism.

Certainly, statements such as beheading 'none believers' compare strongly to the far right fascist rhetoric of traitors must be hung, etc. Then, it is fascism in itself as well.

Neither should be condoned or ignored.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Have you actually listened to the interview? Here is the transcript.


Absolutely brilliant. Someone had to put Marr, _*"We're all Thatcherites Now", _in his place. David Lammy was 100% spot on.

* Reference to Andrew Marr's otherwise interesting BBC4 documentary series on politics a few years back, where he ended with that actual statement.


----------



## Elles

No, I’m saying it doesn’t compare to the beginning, before the Nazis were full on. People were joining the Nazi party and attacking Jews and minorities and although some protested, no one much said anything and their media and propaganda was on the side of the Nazis. 

Unlike what happened with windrush, when the majority of people stood up against it. 

The guy is suggesting that people in Somerset who voted conservative and omg even worse might have voted leave are on a par with Hitler worshipping Nazis. I hope none of his constituents who voted for him voted leave. They could well be feeling pretty insulted and abandoned. It seems it’s perfectly acceptable to stir up hatred against leave and Tory voters ( and white people who go Africa as part of their job).

It’s unfair to compare ordinary leave voters, the conservatives and the erg to Hitler and Nazis. They’re nothing like and there are very, very small minorities who might even be close to wanting what happened back then. 

This guy’s talk is extremist and racist and he needs to tone it down imo. It’s not right whichever side it’s from and people agreeing with him are encouraging it. I don’t think that’s right.


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Comparing modern day groups to Nazi's and Hitler


Good morning, @AlexPed2393: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are banging your head against a brick wall, tho' I guess you do not need me to tell you that!. What I tried to get thro' to some of them on a previous Brexit thread, but had to admit defeat owing to severe cases of tunnel vision, was that the very fact they are allowed to come on this forum to accuse people and parties of fascism, of acting like Adolf Hitler or Stalin (take your pick) is proof positive (if it were needed) that their accusations are rubbish. Under a ''fascist'' regime they would be carted off and disposed of. They would not be allowed to air their opinions freely. And please note: if any of them quote me, I shall not be reading what they have to say as I've read it all a million times before.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Good morning, @AlexPed2393: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are banging your head against a brick wall, tho' I guess you do not need me to tell you that!. What I tried to get thro' to some of them on a previous Brexit thread, but had to admit defeat owing to severe cases of tunnel vision, was that the very fact they are allowed to come on this forum to accuse people and parties of fascism, of acting like Adolf Hitler or Stalin (take your pick) is proof positive (if it were needed) that their accusations are rubbish. Under a ''fascist'' regime they would be carted off and disposed of. They would not be allowed to air their opinions freely. And please note: if any of them quote me, I shall not be reading what they have to say as I've read it all a million times before.


I repeat, fascism comes as your friend. Do you think Adolf Hitler would've been democratically elected if he pledged what he would do within ten years? Did the Russian Revolutionaries predict a Joseph Stalin like dictatorship with mass genocide?

Yes, just because there's still freedom of speech today doesn't necessarily mean they will be tomorrow. Dictators of the past didn't abruptly ban it on first achieving power either, when democratically elected...


----------



## KittenKong

We've dealt with vermin from the far right, how about an example of vermin from the far left, rumour has it some wish to see back in the Labour Party?

He's backing the Farage party if the Euro elections happen. You couldn't make it up.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...-support-for-nigel-farages-party/?ref=mr&lp=6


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> You couldn't make it up.


No, indeed you could not . . . but I cannot say this surprises me too much.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Good morning, @AlexPed2393: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are banging your head against a brick wall, tho' I guess you do not need me to tell you that!. What I tried to get thro' to some of them on a previous Brexit thread, but had to admit defeat owing to severe cases of tunnel vision, was that the very fact they are allowed to come on this forum to accuse people and parties of fascism, of acting like Adolf Hitler or Stalin (take your pick) is proof positive (if it were needed) that their accusations are rubbish. Under a ''fascist'' regime they would be carted off and disposed of. They would not be allowed to air their opinions freely. And please note: if any of them quote me, I shall not be reading what they have to say as I've read it all a million times before.


I think that is quite right, but it doesn't mean that we should cease to be vigilant in looking for, and bringing to people's attention, developments that could lead us along the path that might end with such a regime. It is of course unlikely, but it surely behooves us all to ensure that it does not become any less unlikely.

Personally, I am concerned about the path on which the US has set foot since Trump's election, and I don't like the fact that Bannon is trying to influence European politics, that hate crimes have risen in the UK in the last few years, that Rees-Mogg doesn't see anything dangerous in sharing tweets from the the AfD, etc. I am not concerned that Britain is accelerating down a slippery slope, but, though we clearly differ in our level of concern, I am quite relaxed that the likes of Lammy, noush and KK are bringing such things to my attention.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> No, indeed you could not . . . but I cannot say this surprises me too much.


Doesn't surprise me either. Always found Galloway vile and disgusting.


----------



## KittenKong

A timely reminder of what Brexit is all about, as reported by _The Times _of all papers.

Not forgetting Farage's support for a US style healthcare insurance scheme.


----------



## kimthecat

Breaking news .......
*Lord Buckethead™* @*LordBuckethead*
BREAKING NEWS: Since so many have begged me to run against Nigel Farage in the EU Parliament Election on 23 May, a clever Earthling set up this link for you to fund the cost of the pricey deposit. Will I agree to run if the…





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1119342376974110720








3 replies 82 retweets 208 likes


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Breaking news .......
> *Lord Buckethead™* @*LordBuckethead*
> BREAKING NEWS: Since so many have begged me to run against Nigel Farage in the EU Parliament Election on 23 May, a clever Earthling set up this link for you to fund the cost of the pricey deposit. Will I agree to run if the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1119342376974110720
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 replies 82 retweets 208 likes


We'll, if mascots can win Mayoral elections anything is possible!


----------



## KittenKong

More stupidity or is it hypocrisy? Perhaps she thought, being an MP, the rules wouldn't apply to her own, yet to hell with everyone else.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons






















in


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Breaking news .......
> *Lord Buckethead™* @*LordBuckethead*
> BREAKING NEWS: Since so many have begged me to run against Nigel Farage in the EU Parliament Election on 23 May, a clever Earthling set up this link for you to fund the cost of the pricey deposit. Will I agree to run if the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1119342376974110720
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 replies 82 retweets 208 likes


It's certainly better than being tango'd like the Americans.


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47999377

More "truth stranger than fiction" and further proof that the People are revolting. 

"Ukrainians are heading to the polls in a run-off election to pick the country's next president.

Voters face a stark choice between tycoon Petro Poroshenko, the incumbent president, and television comedian Volodymyr Zelensky, new to politics.

The TV celebrity is favourite in the polls, having dominated the first round of voting three weeks ago when 39 candidates were on the ticket."


----------



## Elles

I wonder who we’ll get next here? Russel Brand?.... :Bag


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I wonder who we'll get next here? Russel Brand?.... :Bag


Nooooooo! I cant stand him.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Nooooooo! I cant stand him.


:Hilarious


----------



## grumpy goby

KittenKong said:


> More stupidity or is it hypocrisy? Perhaps she thought, being an MP, the rules wouldn't apply to her own, yet to hell with everyone else.
> 
> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons
> 
> View attachment 401319
> View attachment 401320
> View attachment 401322
> in


In her defence, she was part of camp remain and voted to remain - she simply supports the concept of following the democratic vote.

I don't think that makes her "pro-brexit" - just part of the remain group who accepts the referendum result as the "final say"

The twitter backlash is typical social media hype to anyone holding any opinion on anything these days.


----------



## KittenKong

grumpy goby said:


> In her defence, she was part of camp remain and voted to remain - she simply supports the concept of following the democratic vote.
> 
> I don't think that makes her "pro-brexit" - just part of the remain group who accepts the referendum result as the "final say"
> 
> The twitter backlash is typical social media hype to anyone holding any opinion on anything these days.


There was nothing 'democratic' about the referendum which was based on illegality a lies. Any decent politician would campaign for at least the postponement of Brexit and a full public enquiry into the 2016 campaign.

Seems Labour's Tom Watson is, at last, coming round to that way of thinking.

A remain voter who now supports leaving the EU makes one a Brexit supporter and vice versa if a leave voter has changed their mind.

The MP in question clearly couldn't care less what happens to people unless it affects her personally.

The Twitter backlash is more than justified. What was she looking for, sympathy?


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> In her defence, she was part of camp remain and voted to remain - she simply supports the concept of following the democratic vote.
> 
> I don't think that makes her "pro-brexit" - just part of the remain group who accepts the referendum result as the "final say"
> 
> The twitter backlash is typical social media hype to anyone holding any opinion on anything these days


Indeed: When Cameron - I thought, to his credit - stepped down after the Referendum result, saying he was not the person to take the country in the direction it was going [or words to that effect] several people (on this forum) accused him of ''doing a runner'' or ''legging it''. I thought he did the exact opposite and the only decent and honourable thing left to him. He knew he was not the man for the job; obviously he wasn't. I was quite speechless when the job (of taking UK out of EU) was immediately taken over by another remainer. And to be honest, I thought TM had been a pretty lousy Home Secretary. And yes, you are right about Twitter (the forum's gospel).


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Indeed: When Cameron - I thought, to his credit - stepped down after the Referendum result, saying he was not the person to take the country in the direction it was going [or words to that effect] several people (on this forum) accused him of ''doing a runner'' or ''legging it''. I thought he did the exact opposite and the only decent and honourable thing left to him. He knew he was not the man for the job; obviously he wasn't. I was quite speechless when the job (of taking UK out of EU) was immediately taken over by another remainer. And to be honest, I thought TM had been a pretty lousy Home Secretary. And yes, you are right about Twitter (the forum's gospel).


If it hadn't been for all the twitterers who tweeted every Tom, Dick and Harry's opinion ad nauseam, this thread would have probably only been 200 replies long!


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> If it hadn't been for all the twitterers who tweeted every Tom, Dick and Harry's opinion ad nauseam, this thread would have probably only been 200 replies long!


Yes, I thought the main reason for closing a thread was that it kept on going round in circles and nothing new was being posted. Not the case with this one, it seems.


----------



## Arnie83

Despite a lot of posts going over old ground trying to persuade people that it's a bad idea, there's plenty new that's been happening on Brexit; hence we haven't yet left and I for one am interested in what's going to happen next. 

From May's cast iron assertion that we were leaving on 29th March with or without a deal, we're now talking months, years, or not at all; she can get her deal through the Commons at its 4th attempt when they all come back from their holidays and admit that the ongoing talks between May & Corbyn aren't going to result in agreement.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Indeed: When Cameron - I thought, to his credit - stepped down after the Referendum result, saying he was not the person to take the country in the direction it was going [or words to that effect] several people (on this forum) accused him of ''doing a runner'' or ''legging it''. I thought he did the exact opposite and the only decent and honourable thing left to him. He knew he was not the man for the job; obviously he wasn't. I was quite speechless when the job (of taking UK out of EU) was immediately taken over by another remainer. And to be honest, I thought TM had been a pretty lousy Home Secretary. And yes, you are right about Twitter (the forum's gospel).


Mixed views on Cameron. Many argued he should have seen this through seeing the referendum was his baby. After all, he vowed not to serve a full term after winning in 2015, so a perfect excuse to do a runner.

Not my actual opinion I hasten to add, but that viewpoint from many is understandable.

You make a mess it's down to you to tidy up, not leave it for someone else to do.


----------



## Arnie83

I'm with @Calvine on Cameron. I don't think he could have been the person to lead us out of the EU, especially after the dire warnings of the consequences.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Mixed views on Cameron.
> 
> .


If he wasn't prepared to take us out of the EU himself why the hell did he call for the referendum. I think he knew the problems it was going to cause and back away the coward.


----------



## grumpy goby

Happy Paws said:


> If he wasn't prepared to take us out of the EU himself why the hell did he call for the referendum. I think he knew the problems it was going to cause and back away the coward.


I think most politicians knew...thats why the camp leave leaders took a massive step backwards at the time. No-one wants that political suicide..
Its much easier to sit back and criticise... Faux outrage has kept Nigel Farage in the job for years.

The only reason I can think TM went for it was that she was already coming to the end of her career, and no-one would turn away a PMs pension plan. I doubt she would have gone for it if she knew what she knows now though!


----------



## KittenKong

https://edition.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.200419/data/8877676/index.html


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 401518
> 
> https://edition.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.200419/data/8877676/index.html


The aim of the right wing, it's not only extremists, is to return Europe to a collection of entirely separate, competing nation states. We know how that goes.

With the added pressure of migrants from the south, the reintroduction of harder borders comes with dangers we should not ignore.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The aim of the right wing, it's not only extremists, is to return Europe to a collection of entirely separate, competing nation states. We know how that goes.
> 
> With the added pressure of migrants from the south, the reintroduction of harder borders comes with dangers we should not ignore.


I don't get what you're saying. Hitler wanted to bring all the European countries together under one banner and make everyone the same, just not in a very nice way. So you're saying that's what we should do now, so another Hitler won't need to and we can do it in a nicer way through making money instead?

Individual countries seem fine, until one wants to take all the others. Britain doesn't want to leave the Eu in a takeover bid for other countries, but you're afraid it will make it vulnerable to takeover itself and by the right wing? Is that what you're saying?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I don't get what you're saying. Hitler wanted to bring all the European countries together under one banner and make everyone the same, just not in a very nice way. So you're saying that's what we should do now, so another Hitler won't need to and we can do it in a nicer way through making money instead?
> 
> Individual countries seem fine, until one wants to take all the others. Britain doesn't want to leave the Eu in a takeover bid for other countries, but you're afraid it will make it vulnerable to takeover itself and by the right wing? Is that what you're saying?


I believe what Arnie was trying to convey is that the whole original concept of what has grown to be the EU was an attempt to bring about peaceful unity through _co-operation_ of countries, rather than conquest.

Should that fail (either due to a resurgence of right wing nationalism or for any other reason), then the logical outcome is the return of the competitive tension and complicated politics that induced two massive wars in quick succession (the second a direct consequence of the first).


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I don't get what you're saying. Hitler wanted to bring all the European countries together under one banner and make everyone the same, just not in a very nice way. So you're saying that's what we should do now, so another Hitler won't need to and we can do it in a nicer way through making money instead?
> 
> Individual countries seem fine, until one wants to take all the others. Britain doesn't want to leave the Eu in a takeover bid for other countries, but you're afraid it will make it vulnerable to takeover itself and by the right wing? Is that what you're saying?


No it isn't

@Jesthar read it as I intended. I have no immediate fear for the UK should it leave. My concerns are rather less parochial.


----------



## Magyarmum

This is disgusting!

I thought the EU had directives preventing this kind of cruelty happening?

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...tivists-call-for-a-ban/?utm_source=newsletter

*More giant factory farms in the Netherlands, activists call for a ban*


----------



## KittenKong

Here we go again, just as I predicted. Prepare for Theresa May's MV4 next week.

The question on everyone's lips is, does Corbyn consider delivering Brexit to be more important than the future of the NHS and his policies to benefit the many and not just the few?

We'll see.


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> This is disgusting!
> 
> I thought the EU had directives preventing this kind of cruelty happening?
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...tivists-call-for-a-ban/?utm_source=newsletter
> 
> *More giant factory farms in the Netherlands, activists call for a ban*


Sadly the Eu supports it.

https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/factory-farms-divide-eu-parliament/

"Brussels - Members of the European Parliament's agriculture committee voted today for the EU to continue subsidising Europe's most environmentally destructive factory farms."

From 2/4/19. Less than 3 weeks ago, they voted to continue to support factory farming. The Eu is still of the mindset of animals as commodities and seemingly uninterested in the environmental impact.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Sadly the Eu supports it.
> 
> https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/factory-farms-divide-eu-parliament/
> 
> "Brussels - Members of the European Parliament's agriculture committee voted today for the EU to continue subsidising Europe's most environmentally destructive factory farms."
> 
> From 2/4/19. Less than 3 weeks ago, they voted to continue to support factory farming. The Eu is still of the mindset of animals as commodities and seemingly uninterested in the environmental impact.


The report you quoted says that the environment committee voted for reforms and the agriculture culture committee voted against them.

The final decision will be for the new Parliament after this May's elections.

As a point of interest, are the USA big on animals and the environment, or more on the side of the farmers?


----------



## MilleD

I heard an interesting titbit today.

I work for a local authority and there is a guy who had been seconded to a temporary team to prepare for a no-deal Brexit. The have all been released to go back to their substantive roles apparently, I heard him say "all preparations for a no-deal Brexit have been stopped".


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> I heard an interesting titbit today.
> 
> I work for a local authority and there is a guy who had been seconded to a temporary team to prepare for a no-deal Brexit. The have all been released to go back to their substantive roles apparently, I heard him say "all preparations for a no-deal Brexit have been stopped".


I think it is pretty obvious that there is no majority for No Deal neither in Parliament or among the people...
Plus it is pretty clear No Deal is a disaster.

Although any Deals are just damage limitations.


----------



## Jonescat

Oh my - some candidates for the Euro elections have been announced - the South West & Gibraltar gets the opportunity to elect Rachel Johnson as a Change UK candidate amongst others.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The report you quoted says that the environment committee voted for reforms and the agriculture culture committee voted against them.
> 
> The final decision will be for the new Parliament after this May's elections.
> 
> As a point of interest, are the USA big on animals and the environment, or more on the side of the farmers?


What have the Americans got to do with it? Of course you know the answer too..

Let's hope with recent actions they come down on the side of the environmentalists then. Although the French hosed and pepper sprayed their demonstrators. We need to vote in decent MEPs.


----------



## Arnie83

Jonescat said:


> Oh my - some candidates for the Euro elections have been announced - the South West & Gibraltar gets the opportunity to elect Rachel Johnson as a Change UK candidate amongst others.


Sadly, I wasn't selected by Change UK though I was one of the 3700 who applied. 

So on the plus side for you , it could have been worse!


----------



## Jonescat

Arnie83 said:


> Sadly, I wasn't selected by Change UK though I was one of the 3700 who applied.
> 
> So on the plus side for you , it could have been worse!


I wish you had been - I 'd have voted for you. I love rational people


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> What have the Americans got to do with it? Of course you know the answer too..
> 
> Let's hope with recent actions they come down on the side of the environmentalists then. Although the French hosed and pepper sprayed their demonstrators. We need to vote in decent MEPs.


The Americans are the ones with whom we are purportedly going to conclude a galaxy-busting trade deal once we leave, thus boosting their agriculture exports and industry. I wondered whether we would be swapping a bad set of rules for a worse one, or not.

And apart from "chlorinated chicken" I know very little about US agricultural practices (and I don't know much about that). You seem to know a lot more, hence my question.


----------



## Elles

Jonescat said:


> Oh my - some candidates for the Euro elections have been announced - the South West & Gibraltar gets the opportunity to elect Rachel Johnson as a Change UK candidate amongst others.


I wonder if they'll start saying "Boris Johnson, brother of Rachel Johnson." No, I don't think so either. 

The south-west includes Gibraltar.

Oops, sorry, speed reading, I missed that you had included Gibraltar.

Shall I vote for Boris' sister @cheekyscrip ? ummy1


----------



## Jonescat

Yes I thought @cheekyscrip would be interested. Didn't realise you were South West too.


----------



## Elles

Jonescat said:


> Yes I thought @cheekyscrip would be interested. Didn't realise you were South West too.


Yep, I'm SW and my son, his wife and my granddaughter live in Gibraltar. Cheeky and I had a petforums meet in Gib at the end of last year.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jonescat said:


> Yes I thought @cheekyscrip would be interested. Didn't realise you were South West too.


Truly, deeply South Western!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yep, I'm SW and my son, his wife and my granddaughter live in Gibraltar. Cheeky and I had a petforums meet in Gib at the end of last year.


Still owe you a coffee... 
Might vote Lib Dem... voting cards received!!
We will see...


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The Americans are the ones with whom we are purportedly going to conclude a galaxy-busting trade deal once we leave, thus boosting their agriculture exports and industry. I wondered whether we would be swapping a bad set of rules for a worse one, or not.
> 
> And apart from "chlorinated chicken" I know very little about US agricultural practices (and I don't know much about that). You seem to know a lot more, hence my question.


Massive factory farming.

I hope that if we do leave the Eu we don't look to America either. We are already seeing the rise of factory farms here. I know someone who worked at the chicken farm local to me. They lasted 3 hours, then left and never went back.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Massive factory farming.
> 
> I hope that if we do leave the Eu we don't look to America either. We are already seeing the rise of factory farms here. I know someone who worked at the chicken farm local to me. They lasted 3 hours, then left and never went back.


The whole point of detachment from EU is for ERG to unite with right wing USA,
Trump and BOJO have more in common than bad hairdo.


----------



## kimthecat

Jonescat said:


> I wish you had been - I 'd have voted for you. I love rational people


Me too! Its not just about who is rational but who you trust .

Brexit latest . Anne Widdicome
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48034732
Former Conservative MP Ann Widdecombe has announced she is set to return to politics - for the Brexit Party.

Ms Widdecombe, 71, said she would still vote Conservative in the upcoming local elections but would stand as a candidate for Nigel Farage's new party in the European elections.

She said she wanted to "fire a very loud warning shot across the bows" of the established parties.

The former shadow home secretary has been retired since 2010.

Ms Widdecombe told BBC News she was standing out of "total frustration" and to show Parliament to "get on with it" or see their seats "in danger".


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Massive factory farming.
> 
> I hope that if we do leave the Eu we don't look to America either. We are already seeing the rise of factory farms here. I know someone who worked at the chicken farm local to me. They lasted 3 hours, then left and never went back.


It's all about closer ties with America and the embracing of the US style economy and culture. A pro Foxhunting and Badger Bating government would hardly care about animal welfare would they.

While much within the EU is in need of improvement a change from EU to US regulations will hardly improve animal welfare would it. Look at veterinary care, declawing of cats for example. Do people in the UK really want this?

I find it absolutely hypocritical of those Brexit supporters who bleat on about the EU taking away 'British' sovereignty yet would welcome far closer integration with the USA who already far too much influence over UK matters.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> The Americans are the ones with whom we are purportedly going to conclude a galaxy-busting trade deal once we leave, thus boosting their agriculture exports and industry. I wondered whether we would be swapping a bad set of rules for a worse one, or not.
> 
> And apart from "chlorinated chicken" I know very little about US agricultural practices (and I don't know much about that). You seem to know a lot more, hence my question.


Lets just say they have a bit of catching up to do (but would rather others came down to their level, because: profit).

I've just this morning been reading a report on a chicken processing plant in the US where (under Trump rule changes) the production line speed was ramped up so far it got to the point where some workers couldn't even get a toilet break, they had to soil themselves where they stood as they couldn't leave the line.

I believe they also have 'allowances' for certain levels of food comtamination by foreign bodies, such as how much rat faeces or how many insect fragments are allowed in various foods (compared with the EU standards of not allowing them full stop).


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Lets just say they have a bit of catching up to do (but would rather others came down to their level, because: profit).
> 
> I've just this morning been reading a report on a chicken processing plant in the US where (under Trump rule changes) the production line speed was ramped up so far it got to the point where some workers couldn't even get a toilet break, they had to soil themselves where they stood as they couldn't leave the line.
> 
> I believe they also have 'allowances' for certain levels of food comtamination by foreign bodies, such as how much rat faeces or how many insect fragments are allowed in various foods (compared with the EU standards of not allowing them full stop).


Nice.

And add to that the fact that a trade deal with the US is in no way going to come even close to compensating for the economic damage of leaving the EU - unless the UK moves a couple of thousand miles westward - and it hasn't really got much going for it.

Yet this is supposedly the 'big prize' of Brexit and is the reason May doesn't want a customs union.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Lets just say they have a bit of catching up to do (but would rather others came down to their level, because: profit).
> 
> I've just this morning been reading a report on a chicken processing plant in the US where (under Trump rule changes) the production line speed was ramped up so far it got to the point where some workers couldn't even get a toilet break, they had to soil themselves where they stood as they couldn't leave the line.
> 
> I believe they also have 'allowances' for certain levels of food comtamination by foreign bodies, such as how much rat faeces or how many insect fragments are allowed in various foods (compared with the EU standards of not allowing them full stop).


An interesting read ....... don't have much time to spend on PF as I have visitors staying for the next 3 weeks.

https://www.dw.com/en/chicken-meat-rife-with-antibiotic-resistant-superbugs/a-48365258

*Chicken meat rife with antibiotic-resistant superbugs*


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> And add to that the fact that a trade deal with the US is in no way going to come even close to compensating for the economic damage of leaving the EU - unless the UK moves a couple of thousand miles westward - and it hasn't really got much going for it.
> 
> Yet this is supposedly the 'big prize' of Brexit and is the reason May doesn't want a customs union.


Ahh, but it will make a number of already filthy rich people even richer by allowing our food to be legally filthy...

(incidentally, why is it that I often hear the words of Scar from the Lion King in my head when it comes to politicians etc. spouting off about the 'benefits' of all these supposedly marvellous trade deals we'll be able to negotiate so easily - specifically "The future is littered with prizes, and though I'M the main addressee...")


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Nice.
> 
> And add to that the fact that a trade deal with the US is in no way going to come even close to compensating for the economic damage of leaving the EU - unless the UK moves a couple of thousand miles westward - and it hasn't really got much going for it.
> 
> Yet this is supposedly the 'big prize' of Brexit and is the reason May doesn't want a customs union.


If we brexit we'll have to make sure it doesn't happen and that we don't import food from America then. And if we do, we need to scare people into not eating it. Other countries have banned British beef and Belgian pork, we can ban chickens from America. I expect the Americans will be keener on offloading their current excess of meat and dairy. They need to know we don't want it, as do our government.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> If we brexit we'll have to make sure it doesn't happen and that we don't import food from America then. And if we do, we need to scare people into not eating it. Other countries have banned British beef and Belgian pork, we can ban chickens from America. I expect the Americans will be keener on offloading their current excess of meat and dairy. They need to know we don't want it, as do our government.


It may not be that easy - I suspect any deal with the USA will include similar clauses to those that were part of the reason TTIP stalled, such the US wanting the ability to sue anyone (up to and including governments) for loss of profits for any reason (including tax increases or environmental and health measures). The EU might have been big enough to stand up to the US on those points, but it is likely to be a different story for us on our own, especially given that America First is the mantra across the pond at the moment.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> It may not be that easy - I suspect any deal with the USA will include similar clauses to those that were part of the reason TTIP stalled, such the US wanting the ability to sue anyone (up to and including governments) for loss of profits for any reason (including tax increases or environmental and health measures). The EU might have been big enough to stand up to the US on those points, but it is likely to be a different story for us on our own, especially given that America First is the mantra across the pond at the moment.


So don't make a deal with Trump?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So don't make a deal with Trump?


Who with, then? None of the big boys or those with anything we need are going to settle for anything less than the best terms they can get for them. And the USA are open about the fact that, for them, it includes widespread access to the NHS, deregulation of healthcare, utilities and uinfrastructure, and a significant move towards (the lower) US food standards (including GM foods and feed, widespread antibiotic use, allowed levels of contamination etc.), lowering of worker and environmental protection standards etc.. It would, of course, cause lots of problems for us (particularly as we'd still have to meet EU standards in order to trade with them), but it's no less than anyone expected aside from those who were convinced the world would be lining up to give us 'sweetheart' deals.

They've also warned of punitive measures, including withdrawing any trade deal full stop, if we ever agree anything trade wise the US doesn't approve of with 'non-market countries', come to that (largely thought to reference China first and foremost). If memory serves, the existing published proposals refer widely to the US having 'objectives' and the UK having 'obligations'

Interestingly, in their current negotiations with Japan none of this arises (aside from the 'China' clause), and there are no mentions of the US having 'objectives' and the Japanese having 'obligations' - both sides are referred to equally as 'parties'


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So don't make a deal with Trump?


I don't think we would make a deal with Trump. His idea of bilateral trade deals is to bully the other party until he gets what he calls a fair deal, which is nothing of the sort.

So we have to wait for 6 years, if he gets in again, and then hope the next President is not quite so America-First as Trump.

Or we take whatever's on offer from Donny, and call it 'taking back control'. And all for 0.3% of GDP over 5 years, according to the leaked Treasury figures.

I'm beginning to think we should have another referendum!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I don't think we would make a deal with Trump. His idea of bilateral trade deals is to bully the other party until he gets what he calls a fair deal, which is nothing of the sort.
> 
> So we have to wait for 6 years, if he gets in again, and then hope the next President is not quite so America-First as Trump.
> 
> Or we take whatever's on offer from Donny, and call it 'taking back control'. And all for 0.3% of GDP over 5 years, according to the leaked Treasury figures.
> 
> I'm beginning to think we should have another referendum!


:Hilarious

Mrs May is giving the Eu plenty of time to change our minds or perhaps I should say the Eu is giving us time lol


----------



## Arnie83

Jesthar said:


> Who with, then? None of the big boys or those with anything we need are going to settle for anything less than the best terms they can get for them. And the USA are open about the fact that, for them, it includes widespread access to the NHS, deregulation of healthcare, utilities and uinfrastructure, and a significant move towards (the lower) US food standards (including GM foods and feed, widespread antibiotic use, allowed levels of contamination etc.), lowering of worker and environmental protection standards etc.. It would, of course, cause lots of problems for us (*particularly as we'd still have to meet EU standards in order to trade with them*), but it's no less than anyone expected aside from those who were convinced the world would be lining up to give us 'sweetheart' deals.
> 
> They've also warned of punitive measures, including withdrawing any trade deal full stop, if we ever agree anything trade wise the US doesn't approve of with 'non-market countries', come to that (largely thought to reference China first and foremost). If memory serves, the existing published proposals refer widely to the US having 'objectives' and the UK having 'obligations'
> 
> Interestingly, in their current negotiations with Japan none of this arises (aside from the 'China' clause), and there are no mentions of the US having 'objectives' and the Japanese having 'obligations' - both sides are referred to equally as 'parties'


Not to mention in order to have any chance of an open border in the middle of Ireland, customs union or not.


----------



## noushka05

Wrong thread:Bag


----------



## Elles

Brexit it seems is part of the reason behind the Extinction Rebellion demands. People are saying that the government's behaviour over brexit has proved that politicians don't listen to voters and can't be trusted. It's in part why the ask for a citizen's assembly on climate change.

"In Britain, the inability of elected representatives to deliver the "will of the people" to leave the EU has renewed interest in this approach."

From politicoeu


----------



## Elles

And.. Tommy Robinson is standing in the Eu elections. He wants to be an MEP. Let's hope he gets so few votes, he gives up

https://www.politico.eu/article/tommy-robinson-standing-in-eu-election/


----------



## KittenKong

Isn't taking back control wonderful?. The Brexit dream team of political has-beens above the report of pensioners could soon lose their perks.

Back to the advice of wrapping up warm with tin foil and wearing wooly hats?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Isn't taking back control wonderful?. The Brexit dream team of political has-beens above the report of pensioners could soon lose their perks.
> 
> Back to the advice of wrapping up warm with tin foil and wearing wooly hats?
> View attachment 401837


My mother used to advise that if I couldn't say anything nice, I shouldn't say anything at all, so on the subject of Ann Widdecombe ...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> My mother used to advise that if I couldn't say anything nice, I shouldn't say anything at all, so on the subject of Ann Widdecombe ...


It was actually Edwina Currie who gave that advice and that, "Good Christians wouldn't get AIDS".
Oops, there's a mention. Perhaps she'll raise her hideous head again too?

Widdecombe's no better of course with her own homophobic track record.

This also came up from a different source to Cotswolds for Europe.

Remind you of anyone?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> It was actually Edwina Currie who gave that advice and that, "Good Christians wouldn't get AIDS"


Did her four-year affair with John Major make her a good Christian then? (He was married at the time.) I could never stand that woman.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear! Think he's cost the party a lot of votes!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> It was actually Edwina Currie who gave that advice


I think it predates both Edwina and my mother by quite a long way.  Sound advice, unless the subject is Brexit of course!!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexit it seems is part of the reason behind the Extinction Rebellion demands. People are saying that the government's behaviour over brexit has proved that politicians don't listen to voters and can't be trusted. It's in part why the ask for a citizen's assembly on climate change.
> 
> "In Britain, the inability of elected representatives to deliver the "will of the people" to leave the EU has renewed interest in this approach."
> 
> From politicoeu


Brexit is terrible distraction from the greatest & most urgent challenge we face. If we leave the EU it will also make tackling climate breakdown nigh on impossible.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, Corbyn would never have agreed to negotiations with Theresa May otherwise.

Guess his pledges for a UK that works for everyone and not just the few and of course the future of the NHS is second to endorsing a Brexit as agreed by May and Farage as regards to FoM.

If this happens, which I fear is likely it'll certainly be his Nick Clegg tuition fees moment.










https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ithout-promise-of-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Well, Corbyn would never have agreed to negotiations with Theresa May otherwise.
> 
> Guess his pledges for a UK that works for everyone and not just the few and of course the future of the NHS is second to endorsing a Brexit as agreed by May and Farage as regards to FoM.
> 
> If this happens, which I fear is likely it'll certainly be his Nick Clegg tuition fees moment.
> 
> View attachment 402043
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ithout-promise-of-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb


If Labour trust that the next Tory leader will not tear up all the nice words in any agreement, and support May's amended deal on that basis, then they are naive to the point of stupidity. Surely the wiser heads like Starmer and Thornberry will make themselves heard ...


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> If Labour trust that the next Tory leader will not tear up all the nice words in any agreement, and support May's amended deal on that basis, then they are naive to the point of stupidity. Surely the wiser heads like Starmer and Thornberry will make themselves heard ...


Indeed. Let's imagine May agrees to the CU plan, endorsed by Corbyn, then he whips his MPs into backing MV4. The deal is passed then May keeps to her word and resigns.

Someone like Boris takes over, immediately tears up the agreement then triggers a no deal Brexit.

Where will the blame lie? Mostly on Corbyn for agreeing to negotiate with May in the first place.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. Let's imagine May agrees to the CU plan, endorsed by Corbyn, then he whips his MPs into backing MV4. The deal is passed then May keeps to her word and resigns.
> 
> Someone like Boris takes over, immediately tears up the agreement then triggers a no deal Brexit.
> 
> Where will the blame lie? Mostly on Corbyn for agreeing to negotiate with May in the first place.


It's hard to see what they can do to safeguard against that possibility probability when one of the tenets of a sovereign Parliament is that one can't pass laws that constrain the next.

But if you and I can see it, it's a dead cert that Labour are well aware of the problems, and the ERG are well aware of the possibilities.


----------



## Arnie83

Interesting

*EU elections: What the European Parliament has been up to*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48024400


----------



## cheekyscrip

PSOE won locals in Spain ( left), PP (right) lost a lot, but extreme fascist VOX got a lot more, taking it from PP. Corruption in PP didn’t help.
PSOE win is good for Gibraltar and good for any Brexit negotiating with Spain, or at least better than PP. 
Socialists have no majority tough...
Imprisoned separatists in Catalonia elected!


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 402184


You and 1 other probably says a lot on that post....


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 402184


I don't get how its funny? Union Flag is also Scotland's flag as they are part of the UK and its the UK flag. The reducing part? Its really common to reduce bread and other perishable items!!

I think you need to get away from Facebook if you start finding that sort of thing funny......


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 402184


I've bought cheaper.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> I don't get how its funny? Union Flag is also Scotland's flag as they are part of the UK and its the UK flag. The reducing part? Its really common to reduce bread and other perishable items!!
> 
> I think you need to get away from Facebook if you start finding that sort of thing funny......


They're being forced out of the EU against their wishes. Guess you'll be telling them to shut up and accept direct rule under Theresa May if you have your way. Where are you from, Southern England?

The post was intended to be humorous after all. It was shar

I'm English by 50 miles or so. I wouldn't have brought that loaf with a symbol adopted by far-right groups all over it.

It's embarrassing.


----------



## KittenKong

Let's get this right. Expecting to do well in the Euro elections despite not having a manifesto, apart from, "Out is Out" or "Brexit means Brexit".

Are people that stupid?
Probably...


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> They're being forced out of the EU against their wishes. Guess you'll be telling them to shut up and accept direct rule under Theresa May if you have your way. Where are you from, Southern England?
> 
> The post was intended to be humorous after all. It was shar
> 
> I'm English by 50 miles or so. I wouldn't have brought that loaf with a symbol adopted by far-right groups all over it.
> 
> It's embarrassing.


Jesus. No it's not. I assume it's a Hovis loaf. It's there because of their 100% British Wheat tagline.

What would you rather they put - 100% British Wheat. Unless you're Scottish.

Absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I'm English by 50 miles or so. I wouldn't have brought that loaf with a symbol adopted by far-right groups all over it.


WHAT???? So you're saying because one group of people wave YOUR flag that represents a union, including YOUR country, you no longer associate with it?

Grow up


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Jesus. No it's not. I assume it's a Hovis loaf. It's there because of their 100% British Wheat tagline.
> 
> What would you rather they put - 100% British Wheat. Unless you're Scottish.
> 
> Absolutely ridiculous.


Since the referendum this is becoming unavoidable, everywhere is this awful jingoism, even in Lidl and Aldi.

Guess you're right about Hovis not being Scottish though, but do we really need this jingoism shoved in our faces every time we go shopping? It never used to be like this.

Nothing wrong with "Made in the UK" or whatever, but when produce is wrapped in the 'union flag? Ugh! Horrible...


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Since the referendum this is becoming unavoidable, everywhere is this awful jingoism, even in Lidl and Aldi.
> 
> Guess you're right about Hovis not being Scottish though, but do we really need this jingoism shoved in our faces every time we go shopping? It never used to be like this.
> 
> Nothing wrong with "Made in the UK" or whatever, but when produce is wrapped in the 'union flag? Ugh! Horrible...


Ok then...…

Yeah, never happened in the past. Plainly getting worse


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Ok then...…
> 
> Yeah, never happened in the past. Plainly getting worse


Are Reebok going to produce Union flag printed shoes?:Hilarious Perhaps they do already.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Are Reebok going to produce Union flag printed shoes?:Hilarious Perhaps they do already.


Perhaps if you are in 1986....


----------



## Arnie83

An important day for Labour and Brexit today with an NEC meeting deciding their manifesto for the MEP elections.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-split-over-backing-for-a-second-brexit-referendum-11707445

Will they opt for a confirmatory referendum on any deal?

I recommend buying shares in fudge manufacturers!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Are Reebok going to produce Union flag printed shoes?:Hilarious Perhaps they do already.


Not Reebok admittedly but ...................

https://archive.tri247.com/article_7181_K-Swiss+K-Ona.html?region_id=&category=


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> Its really common to reduce bread and other perishable items!!


TBH, if it's a decent loaf of bread for 12p I personally would not object if it was wrapped in a North Korean flag. There, I've said it now.

@samuelsmiles3: You must be a very savvy shopper if you've seen cheaper - where do you shop?

ETA: I am constantly shocked at how expensive a decent loaf of bread is now . . . and so much of it is rubbery and tasteless.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> TBH, if it's a decent loaf of bread for 12p I personally would not object if it was wrapped in a North Korean flag. There, I've said it now.
> 
> ETA: I am constantly shocked at how expensive a decent loaf of bread is now . . . and so much of it is rubbery and tasteless.


Bread with the North Korea flag!:Hilarious

I'd recommend Lidl for bread which isn't only cheap but excellent quality.

Oh, there's a _little _Union flag on the wrapper...


----------



## KittenKong

Exactly the same and both manufactured in the UK!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Exactly the same and both manufactured in the UK!
> View attachment 402277


What's your point?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Exactly the same and both manufactured in the UK!
> View attachment 402277


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Exactly the same and both manufactured in the UK!
> View attachment 402277


People tend to localise their brand to certain markets...


----------



## KittenKong

Lynx is sold as Axe in other parts of Europe, has been for years. Just interesting both were manufactured in the UK. Nothing unusual, just the bit of 'Anorak' in me seeing this badge engineering.

Guess it's like Opel and Vauxhall cars.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, they've already lost my vote. This is no surprise at all.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...atest-jeremy-corbyn-public-vote-a8893361.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well, they've already lost my vote. This is no surprise at all.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...atest-jeremy-corbyn-public-vote-a8893361.html
> 
> View attachment 402311


Quelle surprise!!!


----------



## Arnie83

They've basically repeated the same non-committal position they've had for the last 2 years.

Fudge, anyone?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> They're being forced out of the EU against their wishes. Guess you'll be telling them to shut up and accept direct rule under Theresa May if you have your way. Where are you from, Southern England?
> 
> The post was intended to be humorous after all. It was shar
> 
> I'm English by 50 miles or so. I wouldn't have brought that loaf with a symbol adopted by far-right groups all over it.
> 
> It's embarrassing.


I would never tell anyone to accept anything if they didn't feel it was right. Im not that arrogant but Scotland, Wales and N.I along with England are part of the UK. The UK is the country that has membership of the EU. (Can't believe I have to even explain that...).

As for where I am from? Not sure of the relevancy? Does my opinion have less importance if I was in the south of England? What about if I was in Wales? What if I was Scottish living in England? Or maybe not British at all?

You come across very bitter, but it is just a flag at the end of the day.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> They've basically repeated the same non-committal position they've had for the last 2 years.
> 
> Fudge, anyone?


*NEWS THUMP*

*Tuesday 30 April 2019 by Arabin Patson*

*Labour's European election manifesto to be a 'choose your own adventure' ensuring voters can find conclusion they like*









*In an attempt to bridge the deep divide over Brexit and an eventual second vote, Jeremy Corbyn has decreed that the Labour Party will release a choose-your-own-adventure manifesto, ensuring all of Britain's warring political tribes can find an outcome they like.*

Simon Williams, head of political strategy for Jeremy Corbyn, was adamant that this innovative approach was exactly what could bring back the country together.

"We have had enough division. There is no need for remainers to go on Twitter and call Jeremy a useless relic of the seventies that thinks everyone should make their own yoghurt.

"Are you someone who desperately wants a people's vote? Well, choose your pages wisely and our manifesto will allow you to find that we unequivocally commit our party to a second referendum. And you'll only have to talk to Keir Starmer, Andrew Adonis or Tom Watson. Vote for Labour, a truly European party!"

Mr Williams also addressed leave voters in the Labour heartlands.

"But what if you are you tired of being ignored by the elites in London? Are you one of those who feels abandoned by the Westminster insiders who will stop at nothing to thwart the will of the people? Well, follow your instincts and your choice of pages will reveal that our manifesto will be based on taking our country back.

"We will be firmly committed to delivering the result of the 2016 referendum. Once free of the shackles of the EU's free-market ideology, we can build a socialist Britain where we can nationalise everything and bring back the coal pits where your dad worked. British jobs for British workers!

"If you have doubts on any of these please direct your questions to Len McCluskey, John McDonnell or any other elderly labour grandees that look like they would prefer a holiday in Blackpool over somewhere nice like Puglia.

"And now everyone is happy and can stop calling us a bunch of spineless dithering wankers."


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> I would never tell anyone to accept anything if they didn't feel it was right. Im not that arrogant but Scotland, Wales and N.I along with England are part of the UK. The UK is the country that has membership of the EU. (Can't believe I have to even explain that...).
> 
> As for where I am from? Not sure of the relevancy? Does my opinion have less importance if I was in the south of England? What about if I was in Wales? What if I was Scottish living in England? Or maybe not British at all?
> 
> You come across very bitter, but it is just a flag at the end of the day.


_Currently _part of the UK.
I don't think complaining about food wrapped in Union flags a sign of bitterness. I just don't like it rammed down my throat every time I go shopping that's all.

Besides, it was a humorous post. Made me laugh.

Fair point though. Where you are from is none of my business so my apologies for questioning that.

I was reminded of someone who was from the South of England who insisted Scotland etc. must embrace the 2016 result. His knowledge of Scotland was that Hadrian's Wall was the Scottish border, which showed how little he knew about the country!


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> _Currently _part of the UK.
> I don't think complaining about food wrapped in Union flags a sign of bitterness. I just don't like it rammed down my throat every time I go shopping that's all.
> 
> Besides, it was a humorous post. Made me laugh.
> 
> Fair point though. Where you are from is none of my business so my apologies for questioning that.
> 
> I was reminded of someone who was from the South of England who insisted Scotland etc. must embrace the 2016 result. His knowledge of Scotland was that Hadrian's Wall was the Scottish border, which showed how little he knew about the country!


For me seeing food (or anything really) proudly displaying that they use majority British ingredients or materials is a positive thing and the quickest way from a marketing point of view to get this point across to "Joe Public" is to use a union jack flag. Same as if I was in the USA, seeing an American flag on products/services that are "made in the USA".

I am however able to separate Patriotism from Nationalism. They aren't the same thing so for me, the UK or US flags for example don't conjure up negative images. What does conjure negative images, is the thugs who use it to put there point across. Its used as a weapon basically, but I blame the people.

While I do think Scotland should "respect" there independence vote, that doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't be able to have another one at some point or for people to still think they should be independent. A vote result doesn't change peoples thoughts over night. However I call this whole process as being part of a Democratic nation.

I love Scotland though and plan to go back there this Summer


----------



## KittenKong

What is it about Labour not wanting to get elected? They're some stupid people around.

Hoping the Tories and Labour suffer humiliating defeats tonight.
















https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/ba...-with-iain-dale-on-brexit-manifesto-1-6027184


----------



## KittenKong

And Labour are asking why so many are leaving the party


----------



## KittenKong

Big losses for the Tories, Labour and UKIP. Gains for the Greens and Lib Dems.

The response from the Tories and Labour? "We need to get Brexit delivered".:Banghead

Well done Greens and Lib Dems.


----------



## Arnie83

I don't think there is any doubt that there is a pro-Brexit 'plague on both your houses' from some voters. Hence the rise in the Independents; if you don't want Tories, Labour or Remain, there's nowhere else to go.

But to ignore the 300+ LibDem gains (though some will be a bounce back from 2015)) and the 40+ Green gains is something that only a dyed-in-the-wool Brexiter could do. And many Brexit-supporting politicians will do exactly that all day.

What this tells us on the Brexit front - and there are many others involved - is not that 'the public' want Brexit done or that they want Brexit stopped. It's that they are still very divided on the subject, and it doesn't provide any clue as to what the Will of the People is, 3 years on from the farrago of a referendum.

There's only one way to find out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Once again Labour failed to capitalise on Strong and Stable defeat of Tories.

Lid Dem doubled, Green doubled, UKIP lost but Corbyn promised Brexit!!!!

May in denial.


----------



## KittenKong

I have waited three years to receive a leaflet like this, though I wish it was Labour rather than the Lib Dems leading the way as an opposition to this government.

Anyway, well done to them and their remarkable success in the local elections.


----------



## Tiggers

How disgusting is this party?????????


----------



## Arnie83

Tiggers said:


> How disgusting is this party?????????


Not with you ...

Are you at a party?


----------



## Calvine

Tiggers said:


> How disgusting is this party?????????


To which party are you referring?


----------



## Tiggers

Lib Dem Party.


----------



## Arnie83

Tiggers said:


> Lib Dem Party.


Ah, right.

In what way are they 'disgusting'?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Ah, right.
> 
> In what way are they 'disgusting'?


Guess ... they want people to have a say?
How dare they!!!
Only dear Strong and Stable can bring the same reheated Deal to the table...


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Guess ... they want people to have a say?
> How dare they!!!
> Only dear Strong and Stable can bring the same reheated Deal to the table...


With such a vehement reaction I don't like to guess. Surely it can't be the exercise of a democratic right to campaign for what they believe in that the poster finds disgusting, but who knows?


----------



## KittenKong

Good!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/04/anger-grows-may-corbyn-bid-stitch-up-brexit-deal


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Good!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/04/anger-grows-may-corbyn-bid-stitch-up-brexit-deal
> 
> View attachment 402748


Letting the People decide is really looking the most likely outcome at the moment, though I might be biased through wishful thinking. It doesn't look like Parliament is going to reach a majority, let alone a consensus, on any option.


----------



## Arnie83

From the Telegraph

Theresa May has held secret discussions over a three-way second referendum ahead of a crunch meeting with Labour this week to agree a cross-party Brexit deal.

The Prime Minister has carried out "scenario planning" with aides and ministers *in case the Government cannot prevent a Parliamentary vote on a second referendum*.​
Democracy. It's what happens if you can't prevent it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Is the three way Brexit:
Hard Brexit
I can’t believe it is Brexit/ Unicorn Brexit
Brexit is Brexit
?

It should be :
Deal ( that is published to see what we buy, agreed with EU not unicorn)
Remain

Hard Brexit is not an option,as mass suicide is not an option.


----------



## kimthecat

Ive just received my postal vote. There's 21 parties/independents listed . I have no idea who they are but I expect I will vote for the Animal Welfare party.


----------



## cheekyscrip

LibDem or Greens most likely...


----------



## kimthecat

Labour's Election leaflet. Corbyn will bring our country together and get a better deal for Europe . :Hilarious
Someone lives in cloud cuckoo land!


----------



## KittenKong

Incredible but not surprising. People like Farage and Johnson are only popular through frequent positive publicity given to them by the media.
Good old British media, how they make and break people.

Now, after Farage's 34th appearance on Question Time last Thursday we hear that an edition of How I Got News For You that included Heidi Allen has been pulled!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Brexit party may get more EU election votes than Tories and Labour combined - poll

Some have been demanding a 'Peoples Vote' now we know more about the details of leaving the EU, so this is an interesting snapshot of what could possibly happen. Amazing to think the country voted to leave the EU nearly three years ago. Time flies.


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Brexit party may get more EU election votes than Tories and Labour combined - poll
> 
> Some have been demanding a 'Peoples Vote' now we know more about the details of leaving the EU, so this is an interesting snapshot of what could possibly happen. Amazing to think the country voted to leave the EU nearly three years ago. Time flies.


Do you think many people will turn out to vote in the EU elections.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Very few I would think. Most have had enough of this nonsense, me included. To be honest I haven't even had a polling card - does everyone get to vote in these EU elections?


----------



## noushka05

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Brexit party may get more EU election votes than Tories and Labour combined - poll
> 
> Some have been demanding a 'Peoples Vote' now we know more about the details of leaving the EU, so this is an interesting snapshot of what could possibly happen. Amazing to think the country voted to leave the EU nearly three years ago. Time flies.


Proof the hard right is on the rise. Our dreadful media should be held accountable for this. By giving lying racists like Farage et al a platform they have normalised the hard right.

No one who opposes racism or who values our natural world should vote for the brexit party. The AfD are climate change denying fascists & Farage & Mogg are normalising them. Their white supremacist mate, Steve Bannon, is doing a sterling job.

Anyone interested in the protection of biodiversity and environmental protection, then Brexit and it's implications for conservation are massive. >>>>

"When it comes to climate change, the AfD is among the hardliners of the European right-wing populists"










https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...by-opposing-climate-protection-a-1265494.html


----------



## noushka05




----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Some have been demanding a 'Peoples Vote' now we know more about the details of leaving the EU, so this is an interesting snapshot of what could possibly happen. Amazing to think the country voted to leave the EU nearly three years ago. Time flies.


I'd think Brexit supporters who'd usually vote Tory or Labour will switch to the Farage Fascist party.

Pro EU Tory and Labour voters will be more likely to vote Lib Dems or Greens in England. Seeing Labour have confirmed themselves as a Brexit party after three years of dithering over the issue they've finally alienated many of their die hard supporters such as myself.



samuelsmiles3 said:


> Very few I would think. Most have had enough of this nonsense, me included. To be honest I haven't even had a polling card - does everyone get to vote in these EU elections?


May and Corbyn might insist they did disastrously badly in the local elections at the expense of the Greens and Lib Dems due to everyone wanting Brexit delivered. This suggested otherwise but May and Corbyn with their cosy little Brexit coalition think they know best for the National Interest no doubt.

I got my postal vote last week and have submitted my vote.
While many will have dismissed the European elections in the past having taken membership for granted I think it will be different this time.


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Very few I would think. Most have had enough of this nonsense, me included. To be honest I haven't even had a polling card - *does everyone get to vote in these EU elections?*


YES...... you should get a polling card..


----------



## Elles

It’s not a second referendum, though it seems people are using it as a poll. We’re leaving the Eu, so I can’t see the point in voting for an MEP.


----------



## Arnie83

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Brexit party may get more EU election votes than Tories and Labour combined - poll
> 
> Some have been demanding a 'Peoples Vote' now we know more about the details of leaving the EU, so *this is an interesting snapshot of what could possibly happen*. Amazing to think the country voted to leave the EU nearly three years ago. Time flies.


I think it will be a very muddy one to be honest. The Brexit party will hoover up most of the Leave votes, but some Leavers will vote Tory or Labour (mainly because they always do). Some Remainers will vote Tory or Labour (for the same reason), and others will vote Lib Dem, CUK, Green, SNP, PC. Add all the votes and it's still muddied by the Tory / Labour votes which could be Leave or Remain. Take into account the inevitable low turnout as opposed to the higher one in a referendum, and we won't be sure quite what it means.

What is sure is that Farage will claim that it clearly means the People want to Leave the EU with No Deal, while others will make equally unjustified claims for the other side!


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's not a second referendum, though it seems people are using it as a poll. *We're leaving the Eu, so I can't see the point in voting for an MEP.*


Because the rules under which the EU operates demand democratic elections in all member states. Currently - and for an indeterminate period going forward - the UK is a member.

Since June 24th 2016 many in this country have expected the EU to change its rules to suit us, claiming 'intransigence' when they don't. They still seem to think that while 27 countries abide by those rules, the UK shouldn't have to.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> What is sure is that Farage will claim that it clearly means the People want to Leave the EU with No Deal, while others will make equally unjustified claims for the other side!


Of course he will, just as May and Corbyn have argued the remarkable success of the Lib Dems and Greens at their expense during the local elections is due to the people wanting Brexit!


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Because the rules under which the EU operates demand democratic elections in all member states. Currently - and for an indeterminate period going forward - the UK is a member.
> 
> Since June 24th 2016 many in this country have expected the EU to change its rules to suit us, claiming 'intransigence' when they don't. They still seem to think that while 27 countries abide by those rules, the UK shouldn't have to.


Thank you for sharing professor X. I don't care what the Eu demands. I don't have to vote and as we are leaving it and should have left by now, I see no point in voting.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Thank you for sharing professor X. I don't care what the Eu demands. I don't have to vote and as we are leaving it and should have left by now,* I see no point in voting*.


I see your point, but as we are still in and maybe for sometime we have to have a vote.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Thank you for sharing professor X. I don't care what the Eu demands. I don't have to vote and as we are leaving it and should have left by now, I see no point in voting.


Sorry, I was just answering your question.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> Do you think many people will turn out to vote in the EU elections.


 I rather doubt it. A load of people can't be bothered even for a General Election.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I was just answering your question.


What question? Happy Paws pondered on how many would turn out, I said not me. So pick your number and minus one.


----------



## noushka05

Certainly aren't most important issues for climate change denier Farage & his Brexit Party supporters.


----------



## KittenKong

Brexit update.
It's going so well...


----------



## rona

Second time I will vote in my life and I will be voting for someone to be a thorn in the side of both the EU and our own remain government. I think I can vote for Nigel as I'm in the SE


----------



## Elles

Yep, slagging off Nigel Farage really worked last time. I wonder why he manages to get people behind him and voting for him and Brexit, but ChangeUK and the LibDems haven’t managed it, when supposedly even more people want to remain in the Eu, including those who voted leave?

We can’t blame the media, social or otherwise, if loads of leave voters now want to stay in the Eu alongside remain voters and really care about it, they should be out in force. They’ve had 3 years to come up with logos and strategies.

Can I remind you that a 15 year old can rally the world over climate change, without the backing of secret societies and dark money? So what’s your excuse?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Yep, slagging off Nigel Farage really worked last time.


Makes me laugh. Just shows how desperate the powers that be are becoming


----------



## kimthecat

Ive sent my postal vote off. I swore I wouldn't vote again after this fiasco but old habits die hard.


----------



## KittenKong

At last, someone talking sense.

We just have to hope Corbyn doesn't arrange an abstention from MV4 that results in May's deal being passed next month.

Said with very little optimism.


----------



## Magyarmum

Anyone fancy doing this questionnaire?

https://euandi2019.eu/survey/HU/default/default#balance

Hope the link works OK!


----------



## Elles

https://euandi2019.eu/survey/default/EN


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Corbyn ruins old folks' coach trip to Whitby*
16th May 2019









*LABOUR leader Jeremy Corbyn ruined a day out to Whitby for all the other pensioners by being an awkward sod, it has emerged.*

The aging socialist kept overruling the other 48 tourists and insisting everyone do what he wanted to do even though the other options were clearly better.

Roy Hobbs, 70, said: "Jeremy made us go to the Whitby Knots & Rope Museum even though everyone else wanted to do the Dracula Experience. It took bloody ages.

"Then we were having fish 'n' chips for lunch but Jeremy had found a vegetarian cafe instead. Yvonne got quite upset because she'd been looking forward to it and now all she had was shredded lettuce and cheese in a bap.

"Captain Cook's a colonialist, which is apparently bad, and John Bull's Rock Shop is peddling outdated patriotism so we couldn't go there, but he dragged us into a garden centre so he could scrutinise the marrow seeds.

"He's not a nice, well-meaning old chap after all. He's a self-centred, bearded git."

Corbyn said: "Everyone had a marvellous day and agreed with me throughout. I've signed up for the Grasmere trip in August."


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum :Hilarious

Theresa may will stand down by the end of July at the latest and Boris will run for leadership once she has gone.


----------



## KittenKong

News now in that Boris Johnson has confirmed he'll be standing for Tory party leadership, guaranteeing him a media inspired landslide at the next GE. I reckon Corbyn will be gone by the end of the year too.

The only 'positive' I can think of is this news will be a good one for the Tories which will split the pro Brexit Farage vote next week, if the tabloids tell their flock of sheep to vote Tory rather than Farage in the light of the news


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> Anyone fancy doing this questionnaire?
> 
> https://euandi2019.eu/survey/HU/default/default#balance
> 
> Hope the link works OK!


Mine came back with Plaid Cymru and Sinn Fein. Can't vote for ether though :Hilarious

Pretty accurate for me though.

Did it for Hungary as well first time around, got confused when I got to the list of parties at the end and didn't recognise any


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Mine came back with Plaid Cymru and Sinn Fein. Can't vote for ether though :Hilarious
> 
> Pretty accurate for me though.
> 
> Did it for Hungary as well first time around, got confused when I got to the list of parties at the end and didn't recognise any


Mine came back Lib Dem and Plaid Cymru, No surprise as I always voted Lib Dem when I lived in the UK.

I did it for Hungary and it came back MSZP which is the Magyar Soszialsta Part (Hungarian Socialist Party) which I suppose is fair enough although I think I'd rather vote for the Momentum Movement which is a relatively new Centralist party.

Amusingly, the two I was most unlikely to vote for by a long way were Nigel's Brexit Party and Viktor's Fidesz! 

Nuff said!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Mine came back Lib Dem and Plaid Cymru, No surprise as I always voted Lib Dem when I lived in the UK.
> 
> I did it for Hungary and it came back MSZP which is the Magyar Soszialsta Part (Hungarian Socialist Party) which I suppose is fair enough although I think I'd rather vote for the Momentum Movement which is a relatively new Centralist party.
> 
> Amusingly, the two I was most unlikely to vote for by a long way were Nigel's Brexit Party and Viktor's Fidesz!
> 
> Nuff said!


You see? You not have that bad ad you make us believe. Always suspected you were a soft lefty deep down... 

Got Momentum for Hungary and Plaid Cymru followed by Lib Dems. Brexit party bottoms.


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant article from the New Statesman.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...exit-killing-it-doorstep-it-should-quit-talks


----------



## KittenKong

May said she wouldn't resign until they pass her deal!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48290760


----------



## KittenKong

The UK has always traditionally adopted American ideas.
Is this going to be the future of the UK?


----------



## Arnie83

I think May will probably go immediately if the WAB is not passed at the beginning of June. To my mind that makes it less likely that she will get it through. 

Boris, for example, will suddenly realise he can no longer support it (because there are more important things than the country's future; well, one anyway!). 

And the ERG will see their best chance of getting a No Deal, regardless of the Commons. Get the new PM to roll into Brussels demanding the earth and accusing them of being unreasonable and the chances are they would refuse us any more extensions and off we go.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think May will probably go immediately if the WAB is not passed at the beginning of June. To my mind that makes it less likely that she will get it through.
> 
> Boris, for example, will suddenly realise he can no longer support it (because there are more important things than the country's future; well, one anyway!).
> 
> And the ERG will see their best chance of getting a No Deal, regardless of the Commons. Get the new PM to roll into Brussels demanding the earth and accusing them of being unreasonable and the chances are they would refuse us any more extensions and off we go.


What I fail to understand is why offer to resign whether or not her MV passes next month?

The Tories must be aware they'll do disastrously badly in the Euro elections, so would make sense for her to go now with the MV consigned to history. That would enable the media to blend in a replacement, such as Johnson that would dramatically increase pro Brexit support away from Farage. Indeed the Brexit vote was held in the first place due to them losing support to Farage/UKIP.

I think May will drag her heels unless the men in white coats take her away or plods on until replaced in December.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> I think May will drag her heels unless the men in white coats take her away or plods on until replaced in December.


According to The Times, it seems I was right!








https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-pleads-for-time-as-boris-johnson-targets-no-10-3znlrkpmt


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> What I fail to understand is why offer to resign whether or not her MV passes next month?
> 
> The Tories must be aware they'll do disastrously badly in the Euro elections, so would make sense for her to go now with the MV consigned to history. That would enable the media to blend in a replacement, such as Johnson that would dramatically increase pro Brexit support away from Farage. Indeed the Brexit vote was held in the first place due to them losing support to Farage/UKIP.
> 
> I think May will drag her heels unless the men in white coats take her away or plods on until replaced in December.


I think she just wanted to have one more go to get her deal through so as to claim a slightly less disastrous place in history.


----------



## Magyarmum

http://www.cityam.com/277792/labour...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190517_CMU

*Labour quits cross-party Brexit talks as Corbyn says discussions have 'gone as far as they can'*


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum :Hilarious
> 
> Theresa may will stand down by the end of July at the latest and Boris will run for leadership once she has gone.


https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/17/who-is-favourite-to-replace-theresa-may-as-uk-prime-minister

*Who is favourite to replace Theresa May as UK prime minister?*

Who would you choose?
https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/17...y-as-uk-prime-minister#spotim-launcher-widget


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/17/who-is-favourite-to-replace-theresa-may-as-uk-prime-minister
> 
> *Who is favourite to replace Theresa May as UK prime minister?*
> 
> Who would you choose?


Barack Obama


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/17/who-is-favourite-to-replace-theresa-may-as-uk-prime-minister
> 
> *Who is favourite to replace Theresa May as UK prime minister?*
> 
> Who would you choose?


Is "none" an option?


----------



## rona

The conservative MP for my area and then we may be able to get rid of him


----------



## Elles

I’d vote for Gove, but I think most of you guys know that. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Barack Obama


Sorry he's not a British citizen nor was he born in a Commonwealth country, contrary to what Trump thought ........ try again



stuaz said:


> Is "none" an option?


In that case, who would you choose that's NOT on the list ...... we can't leave the position vacant now can we?. On second thoughts would anyone notice the difference if we did?



rona said:


> The conservative MP for my area and then we may be able to get rid of him


That's really helpful as none of us know which MP you're trying to get rid of ..... couldn't you just drown him?



Elles said:


> I'd vote for Gove, but I think most of you guys know that. :Hilarious


Can't say I like him but he's got to be better than Boris.

For what it's worth my choice would be Rory Stewart


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/17/who-is-favourite-to-replace-theresa-may-as-uk-prime-minister
> 
> *Who is favourite to replace Theresa May as UK prime minister?*
> 
> Who would you choose?


larry the cat.


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> In that case, who would you choose that's NOT on the list ...... we can't leave the position vacant now can we?. On second thoughts would anyone notice the difference if we did?


Personally, I think that UK politics are in a sorry state at the moment with no clear runner from any party. Not sure who to suggest.... Its all a bit crap really.


----------



## KittenKong

Defeat fascism by giving an unelected individual what he wants?

What is wrong with these people?
















And of course Labour's very own Boris Johnson


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I think she just wanted to have one more go to get her deal through so as to claim a slightly less disastrous place in history.


It would be more humiliating should she be defeated a forth time, unless she's expecting a sympathy vote.


----------



## Arnie83

Interesting. Presumably England only, since SNP and Plaid are not included.


----------



## Elles

So anti brexit is never over 50%. The majority still want to leave the Eu, or don’t think it important enough to vote for a pro Eu party in the Eu elections.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> So anti brexit is never over 50%. The majority still want to leave the Eu, or don't think it important enough to vote for a pro Eu party in the Eu elections.


Assuming you're referring to the chart, without knowing the numbers in each age group, and without Plaid and the SNP being included, and without knowing the Leave / Remain split of the Labour / Tory respondents (who might not think it important enough to vote for Remain or Leave parties), we can't really draw any conclusions about a majority one way or the other.

All it shows is that the clear age split between remain and leave that we saw in 2016 is still strongly reflected.

For info, the last YouGov poll that had Leave ahead on a straight Leave / Remain choice was in March 2017. Twice since then there has been a tie, but since November 2017 Remain has always been ahead by margins of between 3 and 10%.


----------



## Elles

I would expect that as we are now supposedly better informed and think the Eu is fine, remainers must be disappointed with the result of recent polls.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I would expect that as we are now supposedly better informed and think the Eu is fine, remainers must be disappointed with the result of recent polls.


Polls are polls though. Most of the Brexit voters who are stuck in the, "We voted to leave" mindset without another thought will be more likely to vote for the Brexit Party.

They like things simple such as no Manifestos nor experts for that matter. The party themselves probably believe people can't read very well so have placed an arrow at the box on the ballot paper to show their sheep where to leave their mark.

Remain parties did very well at the expense of Brexit backing ones in the local elections. If the same people vote in these elections who knows what will happen on Thursday. If the appetite for Brexiting was still very strong last month surely the Brexit supporting parties would have done well?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Remain parties did very well at the expense of Brexit backing ones in the local elections. If the same people vote in these elections who knows what will happen on Thursday. If the appetite for Brexiting was still very strong last month surely the Brexit supporting parties would have done well?


Local elections have nothing to do with leaving the EU, therefore I like many other disillusioned out voters did not bother. The EU elections are very much to do with the EU and I like many WILL be voting


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Local elections have nothing to do with leaving the EU, therefore I like many other disillusioned out voters did not bother. The EU elections are very much to do with the EU and I like many WILL be voting


No, the local elections don't of course. My point is the Remain parties did well at the expense of the Brexit backing ones. Personally I didn't vote Labour due to Corbyn's stance on Brexit for example during the local elections.

And May and Corbyn put the success of the Remain parties due to them not delivering Brexit!

So, the local elections were treated as significant, even if, as you say, the local elections had nothing to do with Brexit.

Should Farage and UKIP do well, don't expect a no deal Brexit to arise. May and Corbyn will, again, argue the same and probably re-enter negotiations


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I would expect that as we are now supposedly better informed and think the Eu is fine, remainers must be disappointed with the result of recent polls.


I don't think anyone could argue that we are not better informed.

I don't think there would be more than a tiny minority who think the EU is fine; I've certainly never come across one.

From my point of view, as a remainer, I would like the remain lead in the polls to be consistently higher, but in the same way that , imo, the vote to leave was driven by tribal instinct, so now - as @KittenKong suggested - is the intransigence on both sides to change their minds. So while disappointed, I am very far from surprised. Due to changing demographics, over the last 3 years though, a change of mind is not required to change the will of the people.


----------



## Elles

Sorry, but it’s just going over the same old same old. With a potential People’s vote coming up if enough people vote in the Eu elections, I’d expected better, or at least different. Or maybe I hadn’t.


----------



## Arnie83

Farage & co will be going on about the damage of No Deal being mitigated by using Article 24 of GATT to maintain free trade with the EU while we negotiate a long term trade deal.

The problem with that is that we have to reach an agreement with the EU to do exactly that. So for starters it isn't 'No Deal', it's a Deal. And it's a deal that the EU have already said in so many words isn't going to happen, because there will be no transition period - which in effect is what A24 delivers - without a Withdrawal Agreement.

So Farage & co are proposing something that they know isn't going to happen as a way of making No Deal sound just fine. They are trying to con the people. Again.

Of course, they'll blame the EU for being intransigent / punishing the UK etc etc (even though we hold all the cards).


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Monday 20 May 2019 by Ken Walton*

*Brexit Party to avoid further unfortunate milkshake incidents with new protective uniform*









*After Nigel Farage was the unfortunate victim of yet another milkshake attack, party officials have quickly moved to introduce a new party uniform that will protect wearers from dairy-wielding attackers.*

After a Newcastle resident doused the Brexit Party leader in what looked like strawberry milkshake, party insiders said it will be the last such episode, as they will be "ready" next time.

Chief campaign officer Simon Williams told us, "We have been left with no choice but to introduce this new uniform, and you should read nothing into the fact that we had them all ready to go with just a few minutes notice.

"The patent-pending fabric liquid repellent and also keeps the wearer cool if they happen to find themselves stood next to some burning material and significant flames.

"The conical shape of the hood has been ergonomically designed to ensure any liquids will run off over the shoulder area and away from the eyes, while the high point of the hood will make sure people know where our speaker is in a crowd. Should we ever manage to actually attract one."

Supporters of the party have mostly welcomed the move, but some are slightly conflicted as the new uniform could be considered a little 'burkha-ish'.

Brexit party support Graham Matthews told us, "Isn't it a bit… well… reminiscent of what that brown lot wear? Aren't we supposed to be better than them?

"I mean, I get why they feel they need to protect themselves, so it's fair enough I suppose - but on the plus side, at least it's white."


----------



## KittenKong

Meanwhile Theresa May again speaks to the 'nation' to sell a _New _Brexit plan at 1600hrs!

Ahem, doesn't this have to be agreed with the EU who've already said the negotiations are at an end?


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I think I can vote for Nigel as I'm in the SE


Very centrist choice



Elles said:


> p, slagging off Nigel Farage really worked last time. I wonder why he manages to get people behind him and voting for him and Brexit,


Right wing populism/nationalism is a very powerful tool for getting the masses on side. How do you think Hitler rose to power?



Elles said:


> Can I remind you that a 15 year old can rally the world over climate change, without the backing of secret societies and dark money? So what's your excuse?


Greta has the opposite to Farages movement - she has science, facts, the truth & a wealth of empirical evidence on side. The people who support Farage are highly unlikely to support Greta's cause lol



rona said:


> Makes me laugh. Just shows how desperate the powers that be are becoming


Farage IS the powers that be Rona. He doesn't really represent the man in the street you know?. Its all a big fat lie. This lying little hate monger IS the elite. How anyone could vote for morally bankrupt, climate denying, racist con man is beyond me tbqh.

Whatever your thoughts on Russell Brand, he has Farage bang to rights.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Very centrist choice
> 
> Right wing populism/nationalism is a very powerful tool for getting the masses on side. How do you think Hitler rose to power?
> 
> Greta has the opposite to Farages movement - she has science, facts, the truth & a wealth of empirical evidence on side. The people who support Farage are highly unlikely to support Greta's cause lol
> 
> Farage IS the powers that be Rona. He doesn't really represent the man in the street you know?. Its all a big fat lie. This lying little hate monger IS the elite. How anyone could vote for morally bankrupt, climate denying, racist con man is beyond me tbqh.
> 
> Whatever your thoughts on Russell Brand, he has Farage bang to rights.


Proven to be a pathetic little man who cannot tolerate opposition and cries out over spilt milk FFS and bans Channel 4 News from covering him.

What about the 'Great British Bulldog Spirit", he preaches? People who lived through the wars endured far worse than that.

Ed Milliband smiled and took his jacket off when someone threw an egg at him.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Ed Milliband smiled and took his jacket off when someone threw an egg at him.


Unlike John Prescott who whacked someone who threw eggs at him (way back)!


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Unlike John Prescott who whacked someone who threw eggs at him (way back)!


Either is a better response than whinging and throwing around the term 'radicalised' over something so trivial!


----------



## KittenKong

Typical of the National Front in the '70s. Now it's the Nigel Farage of the 2010s.

Very sad.

From Jack Dart on Facebook.










#BrexitBritain in one photo.

Well done to this woman for bravely standing up to Nigel Farage, his heckling goons, and his ugly brand of nationalistic, xenophobic, nativist politics.

We defeated it in the 20th century; together, we'll defeat it in the 21st century! The penny is about to drop, and when it does, Farage will be heading for the hills! Let's help speed up his retirement by getting out and voting REMAIN on May 23rd.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:

Next time you see an image of Nigel Farage, The Brexit Party or UKIP the National Front or anything else that falls under the brand of the far right - populist - xenophobe - with poor dental hygiene instead remember my face.

I am an EU-loving, working-class immigrant - a pro NHS black woman - who exists just as fiercely and fervently as the man who would deny my contribution to this society. So, as TV station after TV station puts his face in front of their cameras, remember that I exist; as he and his peers stand in front of van-sized posters likening humans to cockroaches, remember that I exist; as millionaire donors fund his empty parties who have nothing to contribute to society but fear mongering headlines, remember that we exist.

Remember, that although they try to rob us of our humanity by claiming that we're dangerous and costing the country millions, that we are not integrating into the culture, that our very presence challenges their sense of Britishness, remember that we exist; we are human in every way that they are. The loudness of their voice does not change the persistence of ours.

I exist.

I see you, and I need you to see me.

__

Context

So, I live in the town centre and today as I was enjoying a morning cup of coffee I saw Nigel Farage walking past my apartment. Despite being in a dressing gown I knew I couldn't let the opportunity pass by. So I dressed and ran down the stairs and tied my unbrushed hair in a high bun.

I expected to chase a crowdbut saw like 30 people. They were gathered around a tree on the high street where a man standing on a bench told them they were not welcome in Exeter.

I wanted to get closer to cheer on the man but as I got closer I saw Nigel and in front of him multiple cameras and press gearing to take an image. I thought god dammit, I cannot see another series of posts about how he is travelling the country with a big grin on his face. Before I knew it I was on the table - quite comfortable actually - I thought I will stare down these cameras so that they know how I feel and that I exist.

A moment later I looked to my right and saw Nigel. He is a small man in oversized clothes with coffee breath. I asked him:

1. Why do you support the privatisation of the NHS? 
He said 'I do not support the privatisation of the NHS'.

2. Why doesn't your party release a Brexit plan now and support the government in the exit if you know how to do it so well.

He said: 'We have a plan'. 
I asked what it was and he did not answer. His supporters then accused me of not listening to him and then he said he had had enough.

They heckled me and then they left.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Right wing populism/nationalism is a very powerful tool for getting the masses on side. How do you think Hitler rose to power?


Love a good Hitler analogy once again.

Do you agree with the Milkshake throwing that happened in Newcastle? Just a question, personally I think it petty, childish and it shows someones inability to argue their views properly.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Typical of the National Front in the '70s. Now it's the Nigel Farage of the 2010s.
> 
> Very sad.
> 
> From Jack Dart on Facebook.
> 
> View attachment 404349
> 
> 
> #BrexitBritain in one photo.
> 
> Well done to this woman for bravely standing up to Nigel Farage, his heckling goons, and his ugly brand of nationalistic, xenophobic, nativist politics.
> 
> We defeated it in the 20th century; together, we'll defeat it in the 21st century! The penny is about to drop, and when it does, Farage will be heading for the hills! Let's help speed up his retirement by getting out and voting REMAIN on May 23rd.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Next time you see an image of Nigel Farage, The Brexit Party or UKIP the National Front or anything else that falls under the brand of the far right - populist - xenophobe - with poor dental hygiene instead remember my face.
> 
> I am an EU-loving, working-class immigrant - a pro NHS black woman - who exists just as fiercely and fervently as the man who would deny my contribution to this society. So, as TV station after TV station puts his face in front of their cameras, remember that I exist; as he and his peers stand in front of van-sized posters likening humans to cockroaches, remember that I exist; as millionaire donors fund his empty parties who have nothing to contribute to society but fear mongering headlines, remember that we exist.
> 
> Remember, that although they try to rob us of our humanity by claiming that we're dangerous and costing the country millions, that we are not integrating into the culture, that our very presence challenges their sense of Britishness, remember that we exist; we are human in every way that they are. The loudness of their voice does not change the persistence of ours.
> 
> I exist.
> 
> I see you, and I need you to see me.
> 
> __
> 
> Context
> 
> So, I live in the town centre and today as I was enjoying a morning cup of coffee I saw Nigel Farage walking past my apartment. Despite being in a dressing gown I knew I couldn't let the opportunity pass by. So I dressed and ran down the stairs and tied my unbrushed hair in a high bun.
> 
> I expected to chase a crowdbut saw like 30 people. They were gathered around a tree on the high street where a man standing on a bench told them they were not welcome in Exeter.
> 
> I wanted to get closer to cheer on the man but as I got closer I saw Nigel and in front of him multiple cameras and press gearing to take an image. I thought god dammit, I cannot see another series of posts about how he is travelling the country with a big grin on his face. Before I knew it I was on the table - quite comfortable actually - I thought I will stare down these cameras so that they know how I feel and that I exist.
> 
> A moment later I looked to my right and saw Nigel. He is a small man in oversized clothes with coffee breath. I asked him:
> 
> 1. Why do you support the privatisation of the NHS?
> He said 'I do not support the privatisation of the NHS'.
> 
> 2. Why doesn't your party release a Brexit plan now and support the government in the exit if you know how to do it so well.
> 
> He said: 'We have a plan'.
> I asked what it was and he did not answer. His supporters then accused me of not listening to him and then he said he had had enough.
> 
> They heckled me and then they left.


She sounds like a proper riot to be around. Someone who can't wait to prevent other people voicing their political views and make a scene all about themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> She sounds like a proper riot to be around. Someone who can't wait to prevent other people voicing their political views and make a scene all about themselves.


Perhaps you are arguing these far right supporters should be able to air their views unchallenged?

As for the comment about milk throwing I don't condone this activity, but Farage is a devisive character who clearly expects trouble with the minders he has with him.

The BBC would have reported this as a, "Warm welcome to Farage" had nothing happened.

Sometimes this activity is the only way to get their feelings felt with the media silencing any opposition of Farage, unless they want to be banned as Channel 4 News have been.

Like others I can mention, he cannot stand criticism. How is it going to look when the incident comes to court and he has to testify? "He threw milkshake over me!". Pathetic.

Lucky for him 'Tiswas' is no longer on Tele. Their guests endured far worse than a carton of milkshake!


----------



## Magyarmum

AlexPed2393 said:


> Love a good Hitler analogy once again.
> 
> Do you agree with the Milkshake throwing that happened in Newcastle? Just a question, personally I think it petty, childish and it shows someones inability to argue their views properly.


Bet you didn't know this did you?
*
News Thump*

*Monday 20 May 2019 by Pete Redfern*

*'Nazi salute' actually began as a reflex to block incoming milkshakes, confirm historians*
-








*The so-called 'Nazi salute' or 'Hitler salute' was never actually a greeting and was more of a reflex against incoming dairy projectiles, historians have confirmed today.*

The gesture, in which the right hand is raised high with the fingers straight out and palm facing downwards, is traditionally associated with Hitler, but how it came about is only just being discovered.

Historian Simon Williams told us, "The 'Nazi salute', which used to be seen at Hitler's rallies and which has more recently and very depressingly been witnessed at pro-Brexit rallies from supposedly patriotic Britons, began in the mid to late 1930s."

He explained, "Rather than being a greeting to easily identify yourself as someone who leans to the far-right politically, it actually started off as more of a reflex action to block the torrent of incoming soft drinks being thrown at you by rational thinkers.

"The first milkshake was chucked at Adolf in the 1920s, when he made the mistake of disparaging the Jewish people whilst standing dangerously close to a milkshake vendor outside a synagogue.

"Raising his right hand at the last minute was all he could do to prevent the dousing, and it rapidly became a pre-emptive move to prevent future dairy-based attacks, and it kind of caught on from there."

He added, "It doesn't always work, mind - if you're a tiny fascist like Tommy Robinson, no amount of Nazi-saluting is going to protect you from a milkshake thrown by anyone above the height of about five foot six, as we saw recently."


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you are arguing these far right supporters should be able to air their views unchallenged?


Not particularly no, do it in an intelligent manner. Not just sitting on their stuff like a child.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Three years since the referendum, and Parliament is taking another 10 days hols in the sun from Thursday, until June 4th. Then they're all off again to somewhere nice for another 6 weeks from mid July to early September. And that'll leave just a few more short weeks to prepare for the withdrawal.

It ain't gonna happen. We ain't leaving the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

If we leave EU my cat and dog will have no vet that just recently saved them both and who loves animals and charges very reasonable fee.
Local vets take at least five times as much.
Or even 10 times!!!

Recently Gibraltar had to sign most humiliating treaty with Spain, which will bring very severe losses of business to us and gain only to them.
For example Spanish citizens who live in Gibraltar or move to Gibraltar and work in Gibraltar will be forever treated as Spanish citizens and pay taxes for Spain!!!
Unheard of! Means treating Gibraltar de facto as Spanish.

UK government signed that treaty!!!

So much for patriots!!!

We knew we will be traded as Brexit collateral damage.


As a result high net clients are moving to Portugal.
Basically as far as economic gain Spain shot themselves in the foot, as although new treaty forces those who live in Spain and work in Gibraltar to pay taxes in Spain it will result in many of those people who at least spend their income in Spain to move to Portugal or Malta and pay taxes, spend money there.
Which means loss of jobs in both Gibraltar and Spain...
Well done Spain, but their politicians are as dumb as ours.
Britain has no monopoly for idiots in power.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> If we leave EU my cat and dog will have no vet that just recently saved them both and who loves animals and charges very reasonable fee.
> Local vets take at least five times as much.
> Or even 10 times!!!
> 
> Recently Gibraltar had to sign most humiliating treaty with Spain, which will bring very severe losses of business to us and gain only to them.
> For example Spanish citizens who live in Gibraltar or move to Gibraltar and work in Gibraltar will be forever treated as Spanish citizens and pay taxes for Spain!!!
> Unheard of! Means treating Gibraltar de facto as Spanish.
> 
> UK government signed that treaty!!!
> 
> So much for patriots!!!
> 
> We knew we will be traded as Brexit collateral damage.
> 
> As a result high net clients are moving to Portugal.
> Basically as far as economic gain Spain shot themselves in the foot, as although new treaty forces those who live in Spain and work in Gibraltar to pay taxes in Spain it will result in many of those people who at least spend their income in Spain to move to Portugal or Malta and pay taxes, spend money there.
> Which means loss of jobs in both Gibraltar and Spain...
> Well done Spain, but their politicians are as dumb as ours.
> Britain has no monopoly for idiots in power.


So both Spain and the UK government signed the treaty and ruined it for everyone? Not just UK. Still a terrible situation


----------



## Elles

This?

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/04/inenglish/1551687331_812958.

How does pet travel work at the moment? Animals can be taken from Gib to Spain and back again without any vaccinations, or blood tests?


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Three years since the referendum, and Parliament is taking another 10 days hols in the sun from Thursday, until June 4th. Then they're all off again to somewhere nice for another 6 weeks from mid-July to early September. And that'll leave just a few more short weeks to prepare for the withdrawal.
> 
> It ain't gonna happen. We ain't leaving the EU.


Are you in any way surprised? I maintained from day one I wouldn't trust Theresa May even if I backed Brexit. They promised the undeliverable, likewise Corbyn with his, "Not one job lost Brexit" pledge.

They are not taking the issue seriously at all. Theresa May who, by the looks of things, is set to survive until December intermittently puts her deal back to the commons, expecting the EU to grant further extensions as she may ask for in October.

All very badly organised as the 'referendum' was held to curb the rise of Farage and UKIP in the first place. How badly this has backfired.

To those who argue, "We voted out so just leave". I could of course walk out of my job without thinking of the consequences and how I can pay the mortgage and other bills. Now that would be very reckless wouldn't it?

Should Farage and the Lib Dems do well at the expense of Labour and the Tories I'll be expecting a leadership challenge against Corbyn to follow soon afterwards. So Labour and the Tories may be likely to have different leaders by Christmas.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> To those who argue, "We voted out so just leave". I could of course walk out of my job without thinking of the consequences and how I can pay the mortgage and other bills. Now that would be very reckless wouldn't it?


A better argument for you to say would be "I give in my notice of 4 weeks without a new job lined up and just walk out the door at the end of it, still not bothering to apply to anything"


----------



## Arnie83

I can't understand how people who claim to have the best interests of the UK at heart can vote for a party that not only advocates a No Deal Brexit but has absolutely no plan whatsoever for what happens afterwards. 

We are told that the big prize - apart from a rather sad feeling of vicarious pride at the UK not having to share decisions with those lesser nations in the EU - is the ability to do our own trade deals (as a much smaller economy) with the likes of China, the US and the EU.

Currently the UK has a trade surplus with the US. Trump says he hates having trade deficits, claiming they are 'not fair', and is currently using punitive protectionist tariffs in various trade wars to address them. What kind of magical thinking sees a trade agreement with the US as being any good for the UK at all, let alone so good as to compensate for what we lose by trading with the EU on WTO rules?

And what is Farage's solution to the Irish border issue? He hasn't got one; he just says it's 'the greatest hoax in modern history'. So that's all right then.

Either people don't know, or they don't care. I find neither particularly admirable.


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> I can't understand how people who claim to have the best interests of the UK at heart can vote for a party that not only advocates a No Deal Brexit but has absolutely no plan whatsoever for what happens afterwards.
> 
> We are told that the big prize - apart from a rather sad feeling of vicarious pride at the UK not having to share decisions with those lesser nations in the EU - is the ability to do our own trade deals (as a much smaller economy) with the likes of China, the US and the EU.
> 
> Currently the UK has a trade surplus with the US. Trump says he hates having trade deficits, claiming they are 'not fair', and is currently using punitive protectionist tariffs in various trade wars to address them. What kind of magical thinking sees a trade agreement with the US as being any good for the UK at all, let alone so good as to compensate for what we lose by trading with the EU on WTO rules?
> 
> And what is Farage's solution to the Irish border issue? He hasn't got one; he just says it's 'the greatest hoax in modern history'. So that's all right then.
> 
> Either people don't know, or they don't care. I find neither particularly admirable.


All excellent points, and so far I haven't met a single Brexit supporter who can answer any of them with anything other than cliches...

Actually, I wonder when Farage uses the phrase 'the greatest hoax in modern history' if he's even referring to the Irish border problem, or to the his current politics 

And on a mild tangent, it's been a long day here as I have this stuck in my head:

"My milkshake brings all the whinge from Farage
And he's like
'You're radicalised'
Wrong, mate; just exposing the lies
That you're preaching
For you're right-wing pals..."


----------



## Elles

They’re voting for a principle not a party manifesto, it’s not a GE. As we’re leaving the Eu in a few months ( :Hilarious ) this election is irrelevant other than for making a Brexit/No Brexit stand and that’s where Farage’s party comes in. Once we’ve left, it’ll probably be dissolved.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I can't understand how people who claim to have the best interests of the UK at heart can vote for a party that not only advocates a No Deal Brexit but has absolutely no plan whatsoever for what happens afterwards.
> 
> We are told that the big prize - apart from a rather sad feeling of vicarious pride at the UK not having to share decisions with those lesser nations in the EU - is the ability to do our own trade deals (as a much smaller economy) with the likes of China, the US and the EU.
> 
> Currently the UK has a trade surplus with the US. Trump says he hates having trade deficits, claiming they are 'not fair', and is currently using punitive protectionist tariffs in various trade wars to address them. What kind of magical thinking sees a trade agreement with the US as being any good for the UK at all, let alone so good as to compensate for what we lose by trading with the EU on WTO rules?
> 
> And what is Farage's solution to the Irish border issue? He hasn't got one; he just says it's 'the greatest hoax in modern history'. So that's all right then.
> 
> Either people don't know, or they don't care. I find neither particularly admirable.


An interesting point of view on the subject in today's UnHerd.

https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-fara...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

*How Farage outflanked everyone*


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> "My milkshake brings all the whinge from Farage
> And he's like
> 'You're radicalised'
> Wrong, mate; just exposing the lies
> That you're preaching
> For you're right-wing pals..."


And in all honesty, those lyrics make more sense than the original!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting point of view on the subject in today's UnHerd.
> 
> https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-fara...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3
> 
> *How Farage outflanked everyone*


Having also read some of this authors other articles, 'interesting' is about as far as I'll go...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Having also read some of this authors other articles, 'interesting' is about as far as I'll go...


Which is why I made no comment!


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting point of view on the subject in today's UnHerd.
> 
> https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-fara...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3
> 
> *How Farage outflanked everyone*


Clever guy and I'm afraid I agree with him and what he says in this one:

https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/?=refinnar


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Which is why I made no comment!


Indeed! His analysis of why people fall for people like Farage isn't too bad, but the rest of it...


----------



## KittenKong

Probably staged by the BBC?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wa...vid-davies-called-a-liar-amid-rise-in-threats


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting point of view on the subject in today's UnHerd.
> 
> https://unherd.com/2019/05/how-fara...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3
> 
> *How Farage outflanked everyone*


"We routinely underestimate [people's] continuing attachment to the nation state and to their wider tribe."

I have to agree with this since it's what I've been saying from the beginning that Brexit is all about.

It seems to me a pity. We all started in Africa, and have a common ancestor. Various branches of our family made their ways around the world, settling down, sometimes moving on, until all the current inhabitants of the UK made their way here. My mind can't grasp why some people dislike / fear / distrust other family members whom they have never met but whose journey here took a bit longer than their own.

But it is still a very real phenomenon. Farage's overt xenophobia panders to and exploits it. And we are seeing a resurgence of it, not only in Brexit Britain, but in other EU countries, in Trump's America, and elsewhere. I hope it is a temporary reversal on the road to more inclusive attitudes. My current hope lies in the use of social media by the world's young, but that's a whole new topic!


----------



## MilleD

Arnie83 said:


> "We routinely underestimate [people's] continuing attachment to the nation state and to their wider tribe."
> 
> I have to agree with this since it's what I've been saying from the beginning that Brexit is all about.
> 
> It seems to me a pity. We all started in Africa, and have a common ancestor. Various branches of our family made their ways around the world, settling down, sometimes moving on, until all the current inhabitants of the UK made their way here. My mind can't grasp why some people dislike / fear / distrust other family members whom they have never met but whose journey here took a bit longer than their own.
> 
> But it is still a very real phenomenon. Farage's overt xenophobia panders to and exploits it. And we are seeing a resurgence of it, not only in Brexit Britain, but in other EU countries, in Trump's America, and elsewhere. I hope it is a temporary reversal on the road to more inclusive attitudes. My current hope lies in the use of social media by the world's young, but that's a whole new topic!


Do you really think that the world can live in peace and harmony together?

Just religion by itself will probably ensure that will never happen - as it has been for years, never mind the battle for resources that will be waged as populations increase.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Do you really think that the world can live in peace and harmony together?
> 
> Just religion by itself will probably ensure that will never happen - as it has been for years, never mind the battle for resources that will be waged as populations increase.


Well, at least it was tried successfully in Europe with the EEC/EU for 75 years.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Well, at least it was tried successfully in Europe with the EEC/EU for 75 years.


Europe is not the world.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Europe is not the world.


I said *IN EUROPE, *not the world.
Certainly the founder members of the EEC haven't fought wars with each other since it was founded.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I said *IN EUROPE, *not the world.
> Certainly the founder members of the EEC haven't fought wars with each other since it was founded.


You responded to my comment enquiring if *the world* could live in harmony with a comment about Europe...….


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> You responded to my comment enquiring if *the world* could live in harmony with a comment about Europe...….


You misunderstood my original reply.

The world is not in harmony and probably never will be.

I pointed out with Europe fighting wars with each other every twenty years or so, the creation of the EEC resulted in them working together which has resulted in peace over the past 74 years.

Others could learn from that but, hey no. Wars bring status to a country don't they.....


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> Do you really think that the world can live in peace and harmony together?
> 
> Just religion by itself will probably ensure that will never happen - as it has been for years, never mind the battle for resources that will be waged as populations increase.


I think we can move towards it, not least by blurring the boundaries between the tribes.

I've used the analogy before, so excuse me repeating it, but England used to be 7 kingdoms which now rarely go to war with each other! The counties are distinct and very proud of their own cultural identities but coexist quite happily without ever coming to blows. The US states are significantly autonomous but a war between the North and the South is not a possibility these days.

I don't see why the same progression could not recur on a wider basis. Europe? The world? Eventually, why not? I honestly can't see a problem with the basic idea, but I recognise that I do seem to think very differently to a lot of others, and not only on PF!

Brexit looks to reinforce the boundaries between countries; I would prefer to blur them. But, like the English counties, there's no need to remove them altogether; we are still much to tribal for that.


----------



## Elles

It’s not all about tribalism. Some people agree with Europe, but not the Eu. I don’t know why so many remainers can’t accept that some voted to leave the Eu because of the eu, nothing to do with tribalism, or any of the other isms.


----------



## stuaz

I think touting the EU as a reason for no wars in Europe is far fetched tbh. The majority of countries only joined the EU since 2004 when they increased membership towards the east.

Two very costly wars, both financial and in human lives, and the Soviet Union/USA stand off in th Cold War and with Americas presence in Central Europe, and the nuclear powers had more of an impact on why European countries haven't thought each other.


----------



## Magyarmum

Andrea Leadsom has just resigned.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/22/andrea-leadsom-quits-over-theresa-mays-brexit-bill

*Andrea Leadsom quits over Theresa May's Brexit bill*


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I pointed out with Europe fighting wars with each other every twenty years or so, the creation of the EEC resulted in them working together which has resulted in peace over the past 74 years.
> 
> Others could learn from that but, hey no. *Wars bring status to a country don't they*.....


I thought it very informative that a Brexit placard outside Parliament called for anyone finding a backbone to hand it in to No.10, saying "Last seen 1944 and then again in 1982" [the Falklands].

The whole idea of the EU was to leave those years behind us. Sad to say, while the rest of the EU clearly celebrate nearly 75 years of peace between members, the UK still seems to glorify the wars.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's not all about tribalism. Some people agree with Europe, but not the Eu. I don't know why so many remainers can't accept that some voted to leave the Eu because of the eu, nothing to do with tribalism, or any of the other isms.


This remainer recognises that there were an enormous number of reasons why people voted to leave the EU*. But tribalism is certainly a significant one of them.

*Which is why there was never going to be a one-size-fits-all Brexit. E.g. A load of leavers just want the 'common market' that we joined; a load of others want no 'common market' at all.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Proven to be a pathetic little man who cannot tolerate opposition and cries out over spilt milk FFS and bans Channel 4 News from covering him.
> 
> What about the 'Great British Bulldog Spirit", he preaches? People who lived through the wars endured far worse than that.
> 
> Ed Milliband smiled and took his jacket off when someone threw an egg at him.


The ultra right wingers are quick to call people a snowflake, yet non are more thin skinned then they are. Unlike Farage, Milibands reaction was sheer class .

Everyone should watch C4 expose of the nasty little conman.















If you're worried about threat of dark money funding the brexit party you can write to the electoral commission here KK >> https://actionnetwork.org/letters/investigate-brexit-party-donations-now





















AlexPed2393 said:


> Love a good Hitler analogy once again.


Don't you think that Farage is a right wing populist then? Would you disagree right wing populism is on the rise again? We ignore history at our peril.

These are facts Alex.










*Nigel Farage given standing ovation at German far-right AfD election rally*
https://news.sky.com/story/farage-s...e-joins-far-right-afd-election-rally-11026278

*New Video Shows Nigel Farage Courting Fringe Right-Wing Figures At A Private Tea Party Hosted At The Ritz*
Farage was a guest at the event alongside people who have praised Putin and spread far-right memes. The Brexit Party leader asked them for money and "all the help we can get".

Posted on May 21, 2019, at 2:17 p.m.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/farage-ritz-tea-party



AlexPed2393 said:


> Do you agree with the Milkshake throwing that happened in Newcastle? Just a question, personally I think it petty, childish and it shows someones inability to argue their views properly.


I have zero sympathy for the lying little hate monger, his toxic ideology is tearing this country apart, but no personally I dont agree with throwing milkshake at racists like Farage, I think its unhelpful & a distraction from important issues. Throwing milkshake has nothing to do with being unable to argue their views though, throwing milkshakes at racists has become a _thing_. Its as simple as that, it started when someone threw one at Yaxley-lennon.

This is someone unable to argue their views properly.






And George Monbiot with the truth about Farage & his brexit party pals..(& Corbyn)


----------



## KittenKong

Not the person anyone expected to resign but I'm enjoying their self destruction.

May has had more resignations in two years than Thatcher had in 11 and Blair in 10 years. Yet she remains Prime Minister :Hilarious

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-faces-backlash-to-new-brexit-deal-11725997


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> I think touting the EU as a reason for no wars in Europe is far fetched tbh. The majority of countries only joined the EU since 2004 when they increased membership towards the east.
> 
> Two very costly wars, both financial and in human lives, and the Soviet Union/USA stand off in th Cold War and with Americas presence in Central Europe, and the nuclear powers had more of an impact on why European countries haven't thought each other.


The predecessor of the EU, the ECSC, was set up to - "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". It was set up explicitly because trade promotes peace. Security is peace in Europe not war - that is what the EU has given us - however imperfectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-remain-final-plea-undecided?CMP=share_btn_tw

*5 Peace and war *
*Th*is is the big one. For all its flaws, it's worth remembering what the EU was created for and what it has achieved. It took a continent that for a thousand years had been soaked in blood and aimed to bind those perennially warring nations into a structure that would allow war no more. And in that noble endeavour it has succeeded. For 70 years, the nations of Europe have stopped murdering each other - a 70-year exception to a millennium-long rule. The EU - clumsy and blundering and bureaucratic though it can be - has replaced armed conflict that killed millions with trade and negotiation. If Britain leaves, the likelihood is great that the EU will unravel. And, once it's gone, history suggests Europe will become the dark continent once more. We know what European nations, without the restraint of the EU, can do to each other: look at the break-up of Yugoslavia 20 years ago, look at Russia and Ukraine today.

A Brexit vote will imperil an institution that has kept the peace for three generations.
*
Don't let's be the generation that wrecked it*


----------



## noushka05

hahaa


----------



## noushka05

I'll be with Hugh tomorrow. My vote (as always) is for our living planet.


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> The predecessor of the EU, the ECSC, was set up to - "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". It was set up explicitly because trade promotes peace. Security is peace in Europe not war - that is what the EU has given us - however imperfectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-remain-final-plea-undecided?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> *5 Peace and war
> Th*is is the big one. For all its flaws, it's worth remembering what the EU was created for and what it has achieved. It took a continent that for a thousand years had been soaked in blood and aimed to bind those perennially warring nations into a structure that would allow war no more. And in that noble endeavour it has succeeded. For 70 years, the nations of Europe have stopped murdering each other - a 70-year exception to a millennium-long rule. The EU - clumsy and blundering and bureaucratic though it can be - has replaced armed conflict that killed millions with trade and negotiation. If Britain leaves, the likelihood is great that the EU will unravel. And, once it's gone, history suggests Europe will become the dark continent once more. We know what European nations, without the restraint of the EU, can do to each other: look at the break-up of Yugoslavia 20 years ago, look at Russia and Ukraine today.
> 
> A Brexit vote will imperil an institution that has kept the peace for three generations.
> *
> Don't let's be the generation that wrecked it*


That doesnt really prove anything and my points mentioned in my other post still stand.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The predecessor of the EU, the ECSC, was set up to - "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". It was set up explicitly because trade promotes peace. Security is peace in Europe not war - that is what the EU has given us - however imperfectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-remain-final-plea-undecided?CMP=share_btn_tw
> 
> *5 Peace and war
> Th*is is the big one. For all its flaws, it's worth remembering what the EU was created for and what it has achieved. It took a continent that for a thousand years had been soaked in blood and aimed to bind those perennially warring nations into a structure that would allow war no more. And in that noble endeavour it has succeeded. For 70 years, the nations of Europe have stopped murdering each other - a 70-year exception to a millennium-long rule. The EU - clumsy and blundering and bureaucratic though it can be - has replaced armed conflict that killed millions with trade and negotiation. If Britain leaves, the likelihood is great that the EU will unravel. And, once it's gone, history suggests Europe will become the dark continent once more. We know what European nations, without the restraint of the EU, can do to each other: look at the break-up of Yugoslavia 20 years ago, look at Russia and Ukraine today.
> 
> A Brexit vote will imperil an institution that has kept the peace for three generations.
> *
> Don't let's be the generation that wrecked it*


I wouldn't claim that the EU is solely responsible for the 70 year peace, but to ignore its role is just silly.


----------



## Snoringbear

Well done Brexit voters.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...with-5000-jobs-directly-at-risk-a4147111.html


----------



## stuaz

Snoringbear said:


> Well done Brexit voters.
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...with-5000-jobs-directly-at-risk-a4147111.html


I imagine the production of Steel in China has more of a role to play here that Brexit (which hasn't happened). American Steel industry is suffering as well. Fun fact, that China in the last 2 years has product more Steel than the UK has since 1870! Mind blowing really just how much they are putting out there.

Brexit won't help the Steel industry, but its an industry that has been dying for years.....


----------



## Snoringbear

Yep, doesn’t help that UKIP MEPs, including Farage at the time, vetoed increasing tariffs on Chinese steel imports in the EU to protect domestic industries.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Yep, doesn't help that UKIP MEPs, including Farage at the time, vetoed increasing tariffs on Chinese steel imports in the EU to protect domestic industries.


Just UKIP MEPS? What about the other UK MEPS.


----------



## Snoringbear

UKIP MEPs like Farage. He’ll still be going round attempting to garner votes from leavers in the area who voted to lose their jobs. They’ll probably vote for him as they were stupid enough to vote their jobs away in the first instance. Turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> UKIP MEPs like Farage. He'll still be going round attempting to garner votes from leavers in the area who voted to lose their jobs. They'll probably vote for him as they were stupid enough to vote their jobs away in the first instance. Turkeys voting for Christmas.


You've not answered the question. It wasn't just UKIP MEPS who voted against it. The British government wanted it vetoed.

The Government wont bail it out but 
according to the BBC news about State Aid they might not be allowed to anyway. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41392469

*Do the rules prevent support for the steel industry?*
The EU Commission says too much steel is produced in Europe. As a result, it has been inclined to take a fairly tough line on state aid in this sector.

In 2016 for example, the commission ordered Belgium to recover 211m euros in illegal state aid it had given to its steel industry.

That does not mean all state aid is impossible, but the government would have to make a case that assistance was within the rules, or fell under one of the exemptions.

One possibility would be to argue that the steel industry was essential for national security, but it is far from clear the commission would accept that.


----------



## Snoringbear

The fault lies with dimwitted leave voters. I’m sure they’ll never accept the blame. Simple fact is, if you cast a leave vote in 2016, you’re responsible for the loss of 25,000 jobs.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> The fault lies with dimwitted leave voters. I'm sure they'll never accept the blame. Simple fact is, if you cast a leave vote in 2016, you're responsible for the loss of 25,000 jobs.


----------



## Snoringbear

A roll eyes emoji as deflection proves my point. Thanks.


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> A roll eyes emoji as deflection proves my point.


No, really it doesn't. It just means that @kimthecat feels there is little point wasting time writing words and asking a question which she knows you won't answer.


----------



## Elles

Seeing as the steel company was sold by Tata for a quid in 2016 I don't think brexit uncertainty can be entirely to blame. It might have been a different story if we'd actually brexited and there was no longer uncertainty, but given the history of the company that bought it, which has now gone on to buy French steel with the profits, unless so called British Steel is sold or nationalised it seems unlikely it would survive either way.

I read that Britain and others wanted to keep the tariffs on Chinese steel as they already were, as they believed putting higher than necessary tariffs would be too detrimental to the companies that use the steel. The tariffs were supposed to prevent dumping and make up any difference, not stop imports altogether.

Apparently British Steel made a profit, but the company behind it sound more iffy by the minute. It hasn't really been British or solvent for a long time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greybull_Capital

If people believe that Britain's MEPs are having a seriously deleterious effect on the Eu and the rest of Europe, it's a good thing that we're leaving before we cause real damage. If we ever get around to it.


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> The fault lies with dimwitted leave voters. I'm sure they'll never accept the blame. Simple fact is, if you cast a leave vote in 2016, you're responsible for the loss of 25,000 jobs.


In all fairness I can't let that one go! British steel has been on the way out for a long time. The Brexit vote and the prospect of an economy less conducive to profitable business (through the loss of its frictionless and tariff-free access to the EU) will have pushed it closer to the edge, but we can't blame it anything like solely for pushing it over.

What we should not dismiss, though, is the blindingly obvious effects on other UK manufacturing industry if we a) leave and b) either seek a free trade deal with China or unilaterally remove all trade barriers as proposed by Minford / Rees-Mogg / ERG. A lot of jobs would go the same way as those in the steel industry. Others might be created over time. Or they might not. I'm sure those people who work in our vulnerable industries are excited by the prospect of finding out.


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> That doesnt really prove anything and my points mentioned in my other post still stand.


This >>



Arnie83 said:


> I wouldn't claim that the EU is solely responsible for the 70 year peace, but to ignore its role is just silly.


And what about the threat to peace in NI if we leave without a deal @stuaz ?


----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> I imagine the production of Steel in China has more of a role to play here that Brexit (which hasn't happened). American Steel industry is suffering as well. Fun fact, that China in the last 2 years has product more Steel than the UK has since 1870! Mind blowing really just how much they are putting out there.
> 
> Brexit won't help the Steel industry, but its an industry that has been dying for years.....


The UK is due to leave the EU in October - Orders for steel are made well in advance - Customers don't know what tariffs they would need to pay - Orders have fallen.

Cause and effect.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...g-at-british-steel?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Bitly



kimthecat said:


> Just UKIP MEPS? What about the other UK MEPS.


I suspect tory MEPs too (and the tory government of course!)


kimthecat said:


>














Elles said:


> Seeing as the steel company was sold by Tata for a quid in 2016 I don't think brexit uncertainty can be entirely to blame. It might have been a different story if we'd actually brexited and there was no longer uncertainty, but given the history of the company that bought it, which has now gone on to buy French steel with the profits, unless so called British Steel is sold or nationalised it seems unlikely it would survive either way.
> 
> I read that Britain and others wanted to keep the tariffs on Chinese steel as they already were, as they believed putting higher than necessary tariffs would be too detrimental to the companies that use the steel. The tariffs were supposed to prevent dumping and make up any difference, not stop imports altogether.
> 
> Apparently British Steel made a profit, but the company behind it sound more iffy by the minute. It hasn't really been British or solvent for a long time.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greybull_Capital
> 
> If people believe that Britain's MEPs are having a seriously deleterious effect on the Eu and the rest of Europe, it's a good thing that we're leaving before we cause real damage. If we ever get around to it.


The tories decimated the steel industry. It was the tories which betrayed Tata steel!

The tory govt did not want to keep tariffs on Chinese steel .https://www.ft.com/content/a8da356a-f753-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db#axzz44UuvO7Ta

_It was a tory government who didn't want to step in and take the action that was needed. They didnt want to step in and save jobs.

Every other steel producing country in Europe stepped in and protected their steel sector; France, Italy, Germany, Austria..the Scandinavians --have taken action in order to ensure the future of their steel sectors.

OUR Government didnt want to protect our steel sector until the campaign grew & grew & they were forced to ensure Port Talbot stayed open but they sacrificed Redcar..._

Being in the EU saved British steel!















https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...could-have-helped-british-steel-a6964476.html

A spokesman for UKIP: He added: _"Labour should be ashamed of constantly pushing up the price of energy, via driving the climate change agenda and the Climate Change Act." 
_
Leaving the EU is clearly priority over the future of this planet to people who would vote for the populist right.



Elles said:


> f people believe that Britain's MEPs are having a seriously deleterious effect on the Eu and the rest of Europe, it's a good thing that we're leaving before we cause real damage. If we ever get around to it.


Better still, why dont people take responsibility for their politics by only electing progressive representatives? If they want policies which benefit ordinary people, animals used in industries & the living planet then voting for ukip, the brexit party or the tories which represent the moneyed elite & corporate interests isnt a very sensible thing to do.

..


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Throwing milkshake has nothing to do with being unable to argue their views though, throwing milkshakes at racists has become a _thing_.


So you do agree with it then? If the man had some proper coherent views and was able to validly argue his side he wouldn't have to resort to throwing a milkshake at someone he disagrees with. Same goes with the other guy that got milkshaked, if you had some valid points and counter-arguments you can make those you disagree with look RIDICULOUS and doing that is a much better way of ruining someones brand than throwing a cold dairy beverage on them.


----------



## noushka05

While the brexit party is attracting the older generation, the youngsters are literally voting for _their _future by voting Green. It heartens to me to think that these youngsters, like my own children, are prioritising environmental & social justice.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> So you do agree with it then? If the man had some proper coherent views and was able to validly argue his side he wouldn't have to resort to throwing a milkshake at someone he disagrees with. Same goes with the other guy that got milkshaked, if you had some valid points and counter-arguments you can make those you disagree with look RIDICULOUS and doing that is a much better way of ruining someones brand than throwing a cold dairy beverage on them.


I clearly stated I didn't agree with it



noushka05 said:


> but no personally I dont agree with throwing milkshake at racists like Farage


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> A roll eyes emoji as deflection proves my point. Thanks.





Calvine said:


> No, really it doesn't. It just means that @kimthecat feels there is little point wasting time writing words and asking a question which she knows you won't answer.


Yes indeed . He sounds like KK on a bad hair but without his charm. He spouts off incorrect "facts" and doesnt back up anything he says when asked. he's just wasting our time.

One for the ignore , methinks!


----------



## Elles

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/


----------



## Arnie83

AlexPed2393 said:


> If the man had some proper coherent views and was able to validly argue his side he wouldn't have to resort to throwing a milkshake at someone he disagrees with. Same goes with the other guy that got milkshaked, if you had some valid points and counter-arguments you can make those you disagree with look RIDICULOUS and doing that is a much better way of ruining someones brand than throwing a cold dairy beverage on them.


In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with this.

Without condoning the throwing of anything (bar the occasional tantrum) though, one thing about Farage is that he is very good at countering factual arguments with aggressive bluster. Dismissing facts as scaremongering or lies or a conspiracy of the elite or the rants of fanatical remainers etc is remarkably effective and requires no real counter-arguments at all. And if that fails, attack the messenger.

It's an approach far from unique to Farage; viz Gove's 'I think we've had enough of experts', Rees-Mogg's attack on Mark Carney as 'a failed politician', IDS saying of Sir Ivan Rogers that he 'could no longer be trusted'. Attack the messenger and dismiss the message. What use a valid argument?


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> So you do agree with it then? *If the man had some proper coherent views and was able to validly argue his side he wouldn't have to resort to throwing a milkshake at someone he disagrees with*. Same goes with the other guy that got milkshaked, *if you had some valid points and counter-arguments *you can make those you disagree with look RIDICULOUS and doing that is a much better way of ruining someones brand than throwing a cold dairy beverage on them.


Oh, in an logical world, absolutely.

The problem is, there are plenty of people out there trying to debate the remain position sensibly and with fact based arguments, but more or less constantly being talked over and dismissed with jingoistic bluster and soundbites (we're fed up of experts, remember?). Not to mention being labelled everything from remoaners to cowards to traitors. OK, the video of the woman accosting an MP which was posted the other day was probably at the most extreme and shouty end of the spectrum, but every Brexit debate I've encountered lately seems to have consisted of attempts to make practical, well rounded points from the remain camp, and 'will of the people, we voted leave' rhetoric from the Leave camp in response - never a coherent answer to the actual points! And it is Mr Farage and his ilk who have made this style of dismissive aggressiveness acceptable as a 'debating' tactic.

So quite frankly, much as milkshake based diplomacy isn't ideal, I'm rather surprised no-one has vented their frustrations in such a manner before...


----------



## Snoringbear

Looks like my rant didn’t go well. Question to leave voters. How does it feel knowing your leave vote has cost 25,000 people linked to British Steel their jobs?


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> Looks like my rant didn't go well. Question to leave voters. How does it feel knowing your leave vote has cost 25,000 people linked to British Steel their jobs?


Have you read what others have said about this?

Perhaps you have everyone on ignore....


----------



## Elles

Why should the British tax payer prop up foreign companies and investors in steel and motor? Why aren't the government instead supporting British start-ups, investment and new technologies, enabling people to find work in future tech, rather than ailing dinosaurs of the past that are failing not just in Britain, but overseas too.

The company people are expecting British taxpayers to fund has just spent millions buying out ailing French steel (going bust without a frexit) and have a history. Good luck with these vultures French steel.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...l-rescuer-of-distressed-firms-or-vulture-fund

Hard working self employed and small businesses go to wall if they aren't profitable, but are being expected to dig ever deeper for multi million dollar enterprise. I didn't vote leave, but if I had I wouldn't be too pleased that we hadn't left yet and don't have a government that can make decisions without being tied to Eu rules.

If we had left they probably would have to save British Steel, leaving it's investors laughing all the way to the bank, because of all the crying over lost jobs. Lucky we haven't left yet and the Eu won't let them give them our money. It's scandalous, there's no way Greybull should be entitled to a penny. I sincerely hope the government find another way forward that doesn't involve those scam artists getting one penny more, but does keep people in work.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> and doesnt back up anything he says when asked. he's just wasting our time.


This is also me. I just register my own views because otherwise some of the threads on here get very one sided and back slapping.
I don't however feel the need to tell people why I have those views and I don't feel the need (often) in rubbishing other peoples views


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Why should the British tax payer prop up foreign companies and investors in steel and motor? Why aren't the government instead supporting British start-ups, investment and new technologies, enabling people to find work in future tech, rather than ailing dinosaurs of the past that are failing not just in Britain, but overseas too.


Probably because small British startups and new technologies can't afford to make millions in political donations...


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Have you read what others have said about this?


I'd say that's a resounding 'No' . . .


----------



## noushka05

Me too.












rona said:


> and I don't feel the need (often) in rubbishing other peoples views


Its hard to rubbish other peoples views when they can be supported by evidence, facts, science - yet plenty of times you have tried Rona. This I know from first hand experience- be it the persecution of protected species by the grouse shooting industry, or intensive livestock farming, or climate change, or the tories - this is just a sample of subjects where you have tried to rubbish someones opinion even though it happened to be based on irrefutable evidence.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/


Ahh good ole Patrick Minford, brexiters go to economist Economists for free trade support deregulation - which means removal of protections for the environment, climate, workers rights etc. This is why they hate the EU.






Here James O'Brien exposes Rees Moggs duplicity.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/


Good God - and just look at all the climate change deniers acting as advisors:Shifty

...................

..


----------



## Snoringbear

Had a look back through the thread and couldn’t find anything answering my question. Maybe folks have put me on ignore though. That’s pretty much the leaver way though. Much like Farage on the Marr Show the other week. Shout down questions and don’t answer.


----------



## Calvine

I know this is slightly off-kilter, but didn't think it was worth starting a thread on its own (and apologies if it's already been covered): I don't know of anyone who voted today, not a single person - I've asked about six. Did anyone here bother to vote?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Snoringbear said:


> Had a look back through the thread and couldn't find anything answering my question. Maybe folks have put me on ignore though. That's pretty much the leaver way though. Much like Farage on the Marr Show the other week. Shout down questions and don't answer.


Sorry but your question got a bit lost to me among the copy and pasted articles and weird images


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Probably because small British startups and new technologies can't afford to make millions in political donations...


But people are asking the government to bail out the steel and motor industries that are failing, or moving out. They aren't asking them to invest in new tech and start-ups, but to pour more money into these industries with no end to it and blaming leave voters for people losing their jobs. Struggling Tax payers can't keep bailing out industry and bankers.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> I know this is slightly off-kilter, but didn't think it was worth starting a thread on its own (and apologies if it's already been covered): I don't know of anyone who voted today, not a single person - I've asked about six. Did anyone here bother to vote?


You could have a look here ...

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/2019-european-election.515328/


----------



## Calvine

Arnie83 said:


> You could have a look here ...
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/2019-european-election.515328/


Thank you. At least someone is voting then, allegedly.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Snoringbear

I voted. I’d hope that the non voters are leave voters. But now the Jeremy Kyle show has been cancelled, I imagine they need to find something else to do with the day, so who knows. Not convinced they had the sense to register, though.


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas MP: The EU elections need to be a wake-up call for those of us who want a compassionate, fair, green, peaceful future*
https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...ion/house-commons/104098/caroline-lucas-mp-eu


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Had a look back through the thread and couldn't find anything answering my question. Maybe folks have put me on ignore though. That's pretty much the leaver way though. Much like Farage on the Marr Show the other week. Shout down questions and don't answer.


Perhaps because you don't answer other peoples questions , why should they answer yours? 
Also, you present false "facts" and don't back them up. Even the sensible remainers don't agree with you .
Its rather to silly to say that people have you on ignore because its the leavers' way . If that were true no one would respond to the any remainers yet they do , the sensible ones that is. Its more likely to be your manner .

Edited to add. perhaps you should ask your question to the Tories, as you know , the Steel industry was in big trouble before the referendum anyway and the ludicrous delays to Brexit have caused problems because steel contracts are agreed in advance and customers dont know what tariffs will apply so dont want to buy and who can blame them, 
The Tories wont pay the extra to bail them out for various reasons .


----------



## Snoringbear

Thanks. So basically the Farage/Marr situation. Deflect a question. Thanks for clarifying that, certainly reinforces my opinion of leavers.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Thanks. So basically the Farage/Marr situation. Deflect a question. Thanks for clarifying that, certainly reinforces my opinion of leavers.


?? Sorry , who are you replying too?

Any answer yet. Hurry up as I'm getting dinner and then I'll be busy .


----------



## cheekyscrip

I am going to vote!!!
Thank you for reminding me it is today.


----------



## Snoringbear

kimthecat said:


> ?? Sorry , who are you replying too?
> 
> Any answer yet. Hurry up as I'm getting dinner and then I'll be busy .


Well, it was the post directly under yours. Maybe you can think about it over dinner and put it together?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


>


Is this the man that deliberately annoys animals? I predict a Steve Irwin future for him if he isn't careful.


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> Well, it was the post directly under yours. Maybe you can think about it over dinner and put it together?


Wow, you are a treasure aren't you?


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> I know this is slightly off-kilter, but didn't think it was worth starting a thread on its own (and apologies if it's already been covered): I don't know of anyone who voted today, not a single person - I've asked about six. Did anyone here bother to vote?


I didn't get a polling card. Must be government conspiracy...


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Well, it was the post directly under yours.


That doesnt mean anything on forums . They move fast plus I have people on ignore so you could be replying to them . It doesnt take a second to hit reply but it seems youre too lazy to do that.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Thanks. So basically the Farage/Marr situation. Deflect a question. Thanks for clarifying that, certainly reinforces my opinion of leavers.
> 
> Well, it was the post directly under yours. Maybe you can think about it over dinner and put it together?


Theres not much to say really apart from that no ones really bothered by what you think about leavers .


----------



## kimthecat

The Guardians view point.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/22/what-went-wrong-at-british-steel


----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> This >>
> 
> And what about the threat to peace in NI if we leave without a deal @stuaz ?


Probably not great if there is a hard border but the NI situation is very sensitive and difficult to resolve (if even possible). But being in the EU did not resolve the issues there. For example if Ireland left the EU as well, then there would be no border issue so unlikely any issues in NI. The conflicts would be reignited due to a border issue.

However I don't actually want a hard Brexit so I'm probably a bit biased in my opinions because of that.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Is this the man that deliberately annoys animals? I predict a Steve Irwin future for him if he isn't careful.


Not that I'm aware of Mille.



stuaz said:


> Probably not great if there is a hard border but the NI situation is very sensitive and difficult to resolve (if even possible). But being in the EU did not resolve the issues there. For example if Ireland left the EU as well, then there would be no border issue so unlikely any issues in NI. The conflicts would be reignited due to a border issue.
> 
> However I don't actually want a hard Brexit so I'm probably a bit biased in my opinions because of that.


It will be reckless beyond belief to have a hard border. The EU was instrumental in the peace process. The Republic of Ireland dont want to leave the EU & NI voted to remain. People who want a hard brexit despite it jeopardising the Good Friday Agreement which brought decades of violence to an end should be ashamed of themselves.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## stuaz

noushka05 said:


> It will be reckless beyond belief to have a hard border. The EU was instrumental in the peace process. The Republic of Ireland dont want to leave the EU & NI voted to remain. People who want a hard brexit despite it jeopardising the Good Friday Agreement which brought decades of violence to an end should be ashamed of themselves.


I am aware of this, but thank you anyway....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Voted, got poor OH awake and dragged him to vote, though God knows what he voted for as he forgot his glasses... again...


----------



## KittenKong

Reports of citizens from other EU countries being denied their right to vote. What a horrible hostile place this has become.

Incompetence or gerrymandering?
You decide.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

cheekyscrip said:


> Voted, got poor OH awake and dragged him to vote, though God knows what he voted for as he forgot his glasses... again...


 I took my elderly mother to vote she told me she couldn`t see as she forgot her reading glasses, she said she could work out the boxes but not who the parties were. She managed to get a cross in a box but doesn`t know who she voted for! I have worked out from where she said she put her cross who she has voted for but I haven`t told her as she will not be happy bless her! 
She did get to met a lovely dog though so not all bad!


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> But people are asking the government to bail out the steel and motor industries that are failing, or moving out. They aren't asking them to invest in new tech and start-ups, but to pour more money into these industries with no end to it and blaming leave voters for people losing their jobs. Struggling Tax payers can't keep bailing out industry and bankers.


You asked why the GOVERNMENT weren't supporting startups and innovators, though. Different question entirely...  Big industry, however outmoded, has big influence politically. Small business doesn't.

That said, when Brexit uncertainty is a factor (note, factor, not necessarily the whole or main reason) in any company closure or job losses, then leave voters should at least be prepared to acknowledge that their voting choice has had an influence in those negative outcomes. That's just logical and mature, and to deny it would be just as unfair as trying to place the entire blame on Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Now, what's it to be? Again speaking to her glorious nation with her beloved flag or two behind her. No talk of resignation until she's delivered your Brexit. Enlist Nigel Farage's assistance in delivering your Brexit? She's tried that with Jeremy Corbyn.

She won't be resigning.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Struggling Tax payers can't keep bailing out industry


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

stuaz said:


> I am aware of this, but thank you anyway....


No worries. Shockingly though, a lot of people are so selfish they would put peace in Ireland at stake for hard brexit. They dont care about the cost as long as they get what they want.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


>


A price worth paying of course yet many will dismiss this as, "Scaremongering". Brexit can do no wrong.

I was talking to a Brexit supporter earlier in the year and got talking about the resultant job losses.

The person didn't try to dispute that and accepted Brexit was responsible, but he was OK as he'd retired!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> A price worth paying of course yet many will dismiss this as, "Scaremongering". Brexit can do no wrong.
> 
> I was talking to a Brexit supporter earlier in the year and got talking about the resultant job losses.
> 
> The person didn't try to dispute that and accepted Brexit was responsible, but he was OK as he'd retired!


Very selfish attitude, sadly the world seems to be full of I'm alright Jacks. Brexit, like climate breakdown, will eventually, in some way, effect them too though. And they wont be able to escape the dire consequences of something they will be responsible for.




































__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131710124333121537


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> I didn't get a polling card.


 Mine arrived at 6 pm on the day of the poll!!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 404619
> 
> 
> Now, what's it to be? Again speaking to her glorious nation with her beloved flag or two behind her. No talk of resignation until she's delivered your Brexit. Enlist Nigel Farage's assistance in delivering your Brexit? She's tried that with Jeremy Corbyn.
> 
> She won't be resigning.


Chunky's take on things:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


>


I know of several Brits in Hungary who've been affected. Some of them though because they're eligible to do so will now be voting in the Hungarian EU election instead.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ithout-european-elections-vote-postal-ballot/

*Expat Brits left without European elections vote after postal ballot delays*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...vents-them-from-casting-eu-vote-idUSKCN1SS1F9

*UK expats say slow mail service prevents them from casting EU-vote*


----------



## AlexPed2393

Theresa may is making a statement in 5 minutes in regard to her position as Prime Minister


----------



## AlexPed2393

She's done it, she resigned on the last working day before the EU elections and at a time when everyone is at work... what a cop out


----------



## KittenKong

Nice being proven wrong for once, doesn't often happen!
The bloody difficult woman, she said it, vows to stay on 'til June 7th. Probably give her time to try and get MV4 'delivered'.

No sympathy, she brought it on herself.

While her replacement will be no better, possibly worse if that's possible I rejoice at this news.

Good riddance.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 404632
> 
> Nice being proven wrong for once, doesn't often happen!
> The bloody difficult woman, she said it, vows to stay on 'til June 7th. Probably give her time to try and get MV4 'delivered'.
> 
> No sympathy, she brought it on herself.
> 
> While her replacement will be no better, possibly worse for that matter I rejoice at this news.
> 
> Good riddance.


Is it safe to assume KK that you won't be going to her leaving party then for cake and to say goodbye?


----------



## kimthecat

I dont see how having a different PM will make things better.
I really hope Boris doesnt become PM.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> I dont see how having a different PM will make things better.
> I really hope Boris doesnt become PM.


A part of me kinda wants a real "Brexiteer" person in charge, for them to final realise its not as easy as they make out. Its easy to shout from the sidelines after all.

They are still going to have a split parliament to deal with as well.

However the other part of me also fears someone like Boris being in power... he always kinda reminds me of Trump which is not someone who you want to be compared with!!


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> She's done it, she resigned on the last working day before the EU elections and at a time when everyone is at work... what a cop out


Another job lost to brexit, though no-one seems too worried about this one. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

To be fair, she looks to have aged at least 10 years in the past 3 and looks utterly defeated. Such a different picture from Theresa May of 3 years ago.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Another job lost to brexit, though no-one seems too worried about this one. :Hilarious


Position still exists


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> Position still exists


The position does, but we can't deny that the woman lost her job to brexit and that is an indisputable fact for once lol.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> To be fair, she looks to have aged at least 10 years in the past 3 and looks utterly defeated. Such a different picture from Theresa May of 3 years ago.


It is. It's a shame that some people find glee in such things. Whatever your politics, we are all still human.


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> Position still exists


That old classic "my job is still there, but someone else is doing it"


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> It is. It's a shame that some people find glee in such things. Whatever your politics, we are all still human.


Yeah, I didn't expect her to look so bad, I thought she'd be relieved to step down and saying sod the lot of you, but she looks depressed and demoralised.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Wicked Witch No2 has gone, but god help us who we will get next and what will happen with Brexit.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Yeah, I didn't expect her to look so bad, I thought she'd be relieved to step down and saying sod the lot of you, but she looks depressed and demoralised.


I did, it seems like she had become so personally invested she stopped seeing it as a job and more of a passion.

It was her deal, on her terms etc etc rather than the conservatives deal or whatever you would want to call it.

I do feel a little sorry for her but still she didn't help herself too much.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> It is. It's a shame that some people find glee in such things. Whatever your politics, we are all still human.


She wasn't called Maybot for nothing. As I previously mentioned I once had a boss exactly like May who thrived on his unpopularity. It made him stronger and more determined to make our working lives in misery. We rejoiced when he finally retired. Didn't even bother to wish him well.

May didn't shed a tear for the Grenfell victims, nor the people she had wrongly arrested, sacked from their jobs and denied NHS treatment before deportation to a country they left with their parents as young children.

The victims of Universal Credit too, I can go on.

Good riddance. May she enjoy being relegated to the back benches and even losing her seat at the next GE.

She won't suffer like the people she put through hell to suit her immigration targets.

They are the humans. She isn't.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> She wasn't called Maybot for nothing. As I previously mentioned I once had a boss exactly like May who thrived on his unpopularity. It made him stronger and more determined to make our working lives in misery. We rejoiced when he finally retired. Didn't even bother to wish him well.
> 
> May didn't shed a tear for the Grenfell victims, nor the people she had wrongly arrested, sacked from their jobs and denied NHS treatment before deportation to a country they left with their parents as young children.
> 
> The victims of Universal Credit too, I can go on.
> 
> Good riddance. May she enjoy being relegated to the back benches and even losing her seat at the next GE.
> 
> She won't suffer like the people she put through hell to suit her immigration targets.
> 
> They are the humans. She isn't.


Hold on a minute KittenKong, I'm not a Theresa May fan but are you saying that all those things were her fault and she wasn't bothered that it happened at all.

Especially mentioning Grenfell, she herself didn't choose to put up that cladding. The Windrush scandal was also not of her doing, it was a mistake made well before her time and not under her direct control, I could go on.

That is like saying the Manchester bombing was all her fault and so on and so on because of Police cuts. Open your eyes KK and think a little


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> he always kinda reminds me of Trump


Same hairdresser?


----------



## Calvine

Cameron should never have been replaced with another Remainer; one does not need a degree in politics to suss that one out.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> Cameron should never have been replaced with another Remainer; one does not need a degree in politics to suss that one out.


Can I be slightly playful and ask 'Why?'


----------



## AlexPed2393

Arnie83 said:


> Can I be slightly playful and ask 'Why?'


 ooooooo :Watching


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> She wasn't called Maybot for nothing. As I previously mentioned I once had a boss exactly like May who thrived on his unpopularity. It made him stronger and more determined to make our working lives in misery. We rejoiced when he finally retired. Didn't even bother to wish him well.
> 
> May didn't shed a tear for the Grenfell victims, nor the people she had wrongly arrested, sacked from their jobs and denied NHS treatment before deportation to a country they left with their parents as young children.
> 
> The victims of Universal Credit too, I can go on.
> 
> Good riddance. May she enjoy being relegated to the back benches and even losing her seat at the next GE.
> 
> She won't suffer like the people she put through hell to suit her immigration targets.
> 
> They are the humans. She isn't.
> 
> View attachment 404641


Wow, so you know her that well do you? Do you act the same in your job and with those close to you? How do you know how she reacts on a personal level to anything??

This kind of spite is nasty to see.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Hold on a minute KittenKong, I'm not a Theresa May fan but are you saying that all those things were her fault and she wasn't bothered that it happened at all.
> 
> Especially mentioning Grenfell, she herself didn't choose to put up that cladding. The Windrush scandal was also not of her doing, it was a mistake made well before her time and not under her direct control, I could go on.
> 
> That is like saying the Manchester bombing was all her fault and so on and so on because of Police cuts. Open your eyes KK and think a little


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


>


Thats that organisations opinion not fact, just saying

edit below.

Also yes she wass head of the Tory government but she can't know everything


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Wow, so you know her that well do you? Do you act the same in your job and with those close to you? How do you know how she reacts on a personal level to anything??
> 
> This kind of spite is nasty to see.


I'm with KK, I save my sympathy for people who deserve it I'm afraid. The misery & suffering she has caused is beyond belief .

Your fave satirist:Bag sums it up for me. What an appalling legacy.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Thats that organisations opinion not fact, just saying
> 
> edit below.
> 
> Also yes she wass head of the Tory government but she can't know everything


Then provide references to support YOUR opinion.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So we will have BoJo The Scary Clown as replacement?


----------



## noushka05




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> May didn't shed a tear for the Grenfell victims, nor the people she had wrongly arrested, sacked from their jobs and denied NHS treatment before deportation to a country they left with their parents as young children.


 How sexist is this . You wouldn't say that if it were a male PM. How do you know she didn't cry in private?


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I'm with KK, I save my sympathy for people who deserve it I'm afraid. The misery & suffering she has caused is beyond belief .
> 
> Your fave satirist:Bag sums it up for me. What an appalling legacy.


Yeah. Ok


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> How sexist is this . You wouldn't say that if it were a male PM. How do you know she didn't cry in private?
> She's not of the generation that cries in public.


#
Sexist?:Hilarious

She can cry for herself in public though. Funny that.



MilleD said:


> Yeah. Ok


This is hers & Camerons legacy. I'll save my sympathy for the people who's lives she has helped to destroy.

In one of the wealthiest countries on the planet too!

*UN report compares Tory welfare policies to creation of workhouses*
Ministers in denial about impact of austerity since 2010, says poverty expert

A leading United Nations poverty expert has compared Conservative welfare policies to the creation of 19th-century workhouses and warned that unless austerity is ended, the UK's poorest people face lives that are "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short".

In his final report on the impact of austerity on human rights in the UK, Philip Alston, the UN rapporteur on extreme poverty, accused ministers of being in a state of denial about the impact of policies, including the rollout of universal credit, since 2010. He accused them of the "systematic immiseration of a significant part of the British population" and warned that worse could be yet to come for the most vulnerable, who face "a major adverse impact" if Brexit proceeds. He said leaving the EU was "a tragic distraction from the social and economic policies shaping a Britain that it's hard to believe any political parties really want".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ory-welfare-reforms-to-creation-of-workhouses


----------



## kimthecat

Vince cable is resigning too. They should have a new leader by July 23rd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...ince-cable&link_location=live-reporting-story


----------



## Arnie83

I'm afraid I can't feel sorry for May.

She has repeatedly stated - in fact hundreds of times - that the Brexit deal she recommended was good for Britain and good for jobs and delivered for everyone. Yet she herself said before the referendum that the UK would be better off staying in the EU, and both her Treasury and her DExEU conducted analysis that showed the country would be worse off with any deal, including hers.

She lied. Repeatedly, and knowingly. I have a problem with people voting to leave because I disagree with it, but I would have much less of a problem with people wanting to leave despite knowing the truth. What I can't forgive is politicians knowingly repeating lies that they know to be lies, and making promises that they know cannot be delivered.

Sadly I suspect the next Tory leader will not only continue this tradition, but build upon it. Boris will tell us that No Deal is No Problem, with the simple reason being the "We're British!"


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 I would say virtually the whole of parliament has let us down not just her. 
Do you think will there be another GE soon? The thought of Corbyn being PM rool

@KittenKong 
I wonder if Corbyn or Boris will be expected to cry in public ? of course not , they're men . 
perhaps they could do pretend crying to make it look like they care.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> @Arnie83 I would say virtually the whole of parliament has let us down not just her.
> Do you think will there be another GE soon? The thought of Corbyn being PM rool


I think you're right, as did the last one and the one before that!

I can't see how Boris can change the Parliamentary maths and get anything done unless he does hold a GE. But I don't think he will do so if he thinks he is risking being the shortest-serving PM in history! So the easy answer is that I have no idea!


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> @Arnie83 I would say virtually the whole of parliament has let us down not just her.
> Do you think will there be another GE soon? The thought of Corbyn being PM rool
> 
> @KittenKong
> I wonder if Corbyn or Boris will be expected to cry in public ? of course not , they're men .
> perhaps they could do pretend crying to make it look like they care.


Or maybe some men cry, not because its expected of them, but because they feel actual _empathy_. On the otherhand Tory ideology = cruelty to the poorest & the vulnerable. MPs who vote for cruel polices then cry about the effects on people are the ones pretending.

In the Sun of all papers.

'THEY WERE INNOCENT'
*Jeremy Corbyn wipes his eyes as he makes emotional visit to Finsbury Park after terror attack outside mosque*

Labour leader was visibly distraught as he praised emergency services after a man died and 10 were injured close to his home


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Or maybe some men cry, not because its expected of them, but because they feel actual _empathy_. On the otherhand Tory ideology = cruelty to the poorest & the vulnerable. MPs who vote for cruel polices then cry about the effects on people are the ones pretending.
> 
> In the Sun of all papers.
> 
> 'THEY WERE INNOCENT'
> *Jeremy Corbyn wipes his eyes as he makes emotional visit to Finsbury Park after terror attack outside mosque*
> 
> Labour leader was visibly distraught as he praised emergency services after a man died and 10 were injured close to his home


You do realise he isn't actually crying in that photo?

Perhaps he's a better actor than some others. Or perhaps he just had an itch.


----------



## kimthecat

ON BBC news just now Corbyn calling for an election , he would , wouldn't he ! 
Also Nicola Sturgeon saying a change of PM wont make much difference. I quite admire her. She fights her corner .


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> You do realise he isn't actually crying in that photo?
> 
> Perhaps he's a better actor than some others. Or perhaps he just had an itch.


Here is the link, theres more photos on here. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/38355...bury-park-after-terror-attack-outside-mosque/

For all his faults, Corbyn's voting history is proof of his social values.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> You do realise he isn't actually crying in that photo?
> 
> Perhaps he's a better actor than some others. Or perhaps he just had an itch.


:Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Here is the link, theres more photos on here. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/38355...bury-park-after-terror-attack-outside-mosque/
> 
> For all his faults, Corbyn's voting history is proof of his social values.


I've seen them. Still no actual crying I'm afraid. I can crinkle up my face and look sad.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> ON BBC news just now Corbyn calling for an election , he would , wouldn't he !
> Also Nicola Sturgeon saying a change of PM wont make much difference. I quite admire her. She fights her corner .


Well give me someone who stands for peacre, who cares about the poor, the vulnerable, the disabled, ordinary people, wildlife, climate change, our NHS, welfare state etc over a hard right libertarian who represents corporate interests and the moneyed elites any day of the week. The state of this country since the tories came to power?


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I've seen them. Still no actual crying I'm afraid. I can crinkle up my face and look sad.


He looked shaken & upset to me, I dont think its unreasonable to assume most compassionate people would be moved by the Finsbury Park attack, but fair enough Mille. And Corbyn has compassion, his voting record & activism is proof of that. When others in his party supported cruel neoliberal policies & austerity - he stood up for ordinary people, the poor & vulnerable.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Owen Jones explains exactly how I feel about May. _

"I feel less than no sympathy, I think of the people that she has cruelly treated......she and her colleagues will be damned by history"_


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Wow, so you know her that well do you? Do you act the same in your job and with those close to you? How do you know how she reacts on a personal level to anything??
> 
> This kind of spite is nasty to see.


You might defend her but the horrible woman got exactly what she deserved. Sorry if you don't like it, but I dislike her racist Hostile Environment policy and the misery she put people through.

She even smiled proudly when challenged about it in the Commons, blaming the Labour Party and of course Amber Rudd took the flack for her.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Wow, so you know her that well do you? Do you act the same in your job and with those close to you? How do you know how she reacts on a personal level to anything??
> 
> This kind of spite is nasty to see.


I actually feel rather relieved for her that she has got out of it; she has aged 10 years in three from what one can see, and I can't help wondering whether there is anyone who would have done it better (or indeed, will do better now she's [almost] gone).


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Or perhaps he just had an itch


 Hayfever?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Cameron should never have been replaced with another Remainer; one does not need a degree in politics to suss that one out.


Using that argument perhaps Corbyn would have been a better choice, seeing he called the immediate activation of A50 the morning the 2% 'Landslide' of leaving was announced?

Brexit would have happened last year and we would have seen if it benefitted the many and not just the few.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> This kind of spite is nasty to see.


This is what you call spite.













































































https://www.freemovement.org.uk/theresa-mays-immigration-legacy/


----------



## noushka05

Kathy Burke's twitter feed


----------



## noushka05

nuff said!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Also Nicola Sturgeon saying a change of PM wont make much difference. I quite admire her. She fights her corner .


As Nicola says an even more hardline brexiter is deeply concerning,. and the favourite to take over is not only a pathological liar, a racist & an incompetent but he has ties to the far right. I admire her too, Sturgeon is a real leader who, unlike the tories, appears to have principles & integrity. I hope the Scottish people seize their chance if theres another Scottish ref & break away from this tory hellhole. Good luck to em.


----------



## kimthecat

Larry the cat has put his name forward. He gets my vote. 

Larry announcing his leadership bid , No tears there !


----------



## cheekyscrip

Labour by their lack of any clear stand on Brexit have no chance in GE unless Corbyn resigns and they find one voice.

Labour trying to please pro Brexit and anti Brexit voters de facto confuses all and pleases no one.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit is destroying our economy.
Imagine what it means for 30 k community when 500! jobs go.

Gaming is our big industry.

https://www.gamingintelligence.com/...ltar-as-bet365-confirms-malta-expansion-plans


----------



## Elles

Greedy. The woman earns £5m a week, you'd think it'd be enough. They certainly aren't making losses. I wouldn't work for them any more than I'd work for an abattoir.

As her father who also profits said "brexit will cost us dearly". Poor lamb. Disgusting company.

"Denise Coates, who last year paid herself £265m from her gambling company Bet365. That's money made from the rise in compulsive gambling, including among 450,000 children, according to a report this week. But what's that she's holding up so proudly in the pictures? Ah yes, it's a CBE awarded in 2012 for "services to the community and business"."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ange-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Greedy. The woman earns £5m a week, you'd think it'd be enough. They certainly aren't making losses. I wouldn't work for them any more than I'd work for an abattoir.
> 
> As her father who also profits said "brexit will cost us dearly". Poor lamb. Disgusting company.
> 
> "Denise Coates, who last year paid herself £265m from her gambling company Bet365. That's money made from the rise in compulsive gambling, including among 450,000 children, according to a report this week. But what's that she's holding up so proudly in the pictures? Ah yes, it's a CBE awarded in 2012 for "services to the community and business"."
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ange-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates


Brexit costs Gibraltar dearly.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> So we will have BoJo The Scary Clown as replacement?


 There was a list of about 15 I saw somewhere, none of whom filled you with confidence. I think two I'd never heard of.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Using that argument perhaps Corbyn would have been a better choice


 It wasn't actually an argument. Corbyn was/is Labour so that was not going to happen.


----------



## Snoringbear

An interesting piece of research regarding Brexit voting habits. Highlight for me from the abstract is this " We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320


----------



## Arnie83

Snoringbear said:


> An interesting piece of research regarding Brexit voting habits. Highlight for me from the abstract is this " We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction."
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320


Interesting, and a finding replicated elsewhere.

Of course it doesn't mean that Leave voters are old, white, stupid people.

It does suggest to me, though, that a lot of Leave voters were those for whom the 'system' has not been working in a way that improved their lot. Understandable, therefore, that a vote for change was well worth a try.


----------



## Elles

I thought people voted leave because of the Russians on Facebook? If they don’t have smartphones and the internet, that’s that theory down the pan. 

So what it’s saying is the majority of people in the U.K. are white, sick, poor and uneducated.

Done well in the Eu then.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris's latest tweet.

 *Boris Johnson*‏Verified account @*BorisJohnson* May 24

A very dignified statement from @*theresa_may*. Thank you for your stoical service to our country and the Conservative Party. It is now time to follow her urgings: to come together and deliver Brexit.

Good luck with that, mate !


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> An interesting piece of research regarding Brexit voting habits.


This particular ''old chestnut'' has been done to death since 2016; surely you must have noticed that? Most people are sick of reading it.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Good luck with that, mate !


Indeed! Let's see which of them can do a better job. - don't hold your breath though.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> the majority of people in the U.K. are white, sick, poor and uneducated.


 Don't forget geriatric please, @Elles. 
To be honest, I would expect the Leave voters to be mainly white since about 80% of UK is white (so I read some time ago). This would also suggest that the majority of Remain voters are white too (unless they were vastly under-represented). This is not South Africa.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> This particular ''old chestnut'' has been done to death since 2016; surely you must have noticed that? Most people are sick of reading it.


Funnily enough the old chestnut of, "We won, you lost, get over it" and orders to, "Respect the referendum result" are back in fashion too.

This kind of thing is what we're up against. I despair I really do.


----------



## Arnie83

Boris - PM-in-waiting - said Friday that "the way to get a good deal is to prepare for a no deal", thus rehashing the approach that has already failed with both the EU and in Parliament.

He won't dare go to the country in a General Election, since the rise of Farage's Brexit party has all but ensured that the Tories won't get a majority and probably won't even be the biggest party; and that would ruin what is really important to Boris - the PM-ship.

The EU are not going to renegotiate the WA and there is nothing new in the technological world that would make any difference to the Irish border problem in any case.

Parliament won't sanction a No Deal Brexit.

It currently seems to me that the most likely way forward is now a straight referendum between No Deal and No Brexit. Boris can abdicate responsibility and blame whichever way it goes, keep his job and pretend to be Churchill.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Funnily enough the old chestnut of, "We won, you lost, get over it" and orders to, "Respect the referendum result" are back in fashion too.
> 
> This kind of thing is what we're up against. I despair I really do.
> 
> View attachment 404854


----------



## KittenKong

Johnson had to become Farage during the 2016 campaign, so much even the BBC commented he was like a, "Farage in a blond wig".

But the media and public love him.

I'm sure Murdoch will make every effort to focus on " BoJo" to ensure the Tories get their landslide with, "The Sun Says" telling their flock of sheep to vote for him.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I haven't read the study so I'm not sure how they define uneducated. My twin brother could be categorised as uneducated, I suppose - he left school at sixteen, did an apprentiship in carpentry and now runs his own successful business as a cabinet maker. I, on the other hand, went to college, got a few 'O' and 'A' levels and ended up drifting about in different jobs not knowing where I was really going.

My brother now has a bigger house than me, earns more money than me and a nicer car than me.

But at least I'll have the satisfaction of ringing him up this morning to tell him he is uneducated and shouldn't really have been trusted to vote (remain) in the referendum.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Funnily enough the old chestnut of, "We won, you lost, get over it" and orders to, "Respect the referendum result" are back in fashion too.
> 
> This kind of thing is what we're up against. I despair I really do.
> 
> View attachment 404854


Was speaking to a leaver the other day who insisted most of the European population and countries want out of the EU, so are looking at the UK for inspiration, due to "us" being "superior" no doubt.

I politely said not to believe everything she read in the papers. She denied reading papers so I wonder where she got that information from, unless she made it up?

Then her overall attitude resembled that of a certain tabloid paper.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131789139240738816


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Was speaking to a leaver the other day who insisted most of the European population and countries want out of the EU, so are looking at the UK for inspiration, due to "us" being "superior" no doubt.
> 
> I politely said not to believe everything she read in the papers. She denied reading papers so I wonder where she got that information from, unless she made it up?
> 
> Then her overall attitude resembled that of a certain tabloid paper.


A stunning revelation and one we should all be made aware of ........ NOT!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Was speaking to a leaver the other day who insisted most of the European population and countries want out of the EU, so are looking at the UK for inspiration, due to "us" being "superior" no doubt.
> 
> I politely said not to believe everything she read in the papers. She denied reading papers so I wonder where she got that information from, unless she made it up?
> 
> Then her overall attitude resembled that of a certain tabloid paper.


Just out of curiosity where do you get your information from ? Oh just remembered , Twitter  

ETA its been said from the start in these threads that us leaving the UK could encourage other countries to follow suit and that was reason to vote remain . So , according to you that's now not true so perhaps remainers were exaggerating the dangers ? Hmmm.


----------



## Arnie83

From the Independent (which is pro-EU but presumably doesn't make the figures up; I haven't checked the source). April 2019.

The survey by Kantar asked people how they would vote in an in-out referendum and found that Luxembourg (94 per cent), Portugal (92 per cent), Ireland (91 per cent), and the Netherlands (91 per cent) had the highest support for EU membership out of the 28 countries in the bloc.

Apart from the UK the highest level of support for leaving was in the Czech Republic, where 66 per cent supported Remain and 34 per cent Leave. Italy was close behind as the next most Eurosceptic country, with 72 per cent Remain and 28 per cent Leave. Austria and France were the third and fourth most Eurosceptic.

Every country bar the Czech Republic had more than 70 per cent in favour of Remain, with about two-thirds showing support of more than 80 per cent.

Where older figures are available for comparison, the poll generally shows substantial moves in favour of EU membership. In Estonia Remain has broadened the gap by 12 per cent since the last poll in September, while Italy's gap has widened by 14 per cent.​
I suspect that some of the increase in support has been generated by the godawful mess we have made over the last 3 years of trying to find a good deal for leaving.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I suspect that some of the increase in support has been generated by the godawful mess we have made over the last 3 years of trying to find a good deal for leaving.


and the EU making an example of us so the rest wont want to leave.

Rather worrying is the rise in anti -Semitism in Germany , 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48411735


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> and the EU making an example of us so the rest wont want to leave.
> 
> Rather worrying is the rise in anti -Semitism in Germany ,
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48411735


https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/brexit-dampens-desires-to-leave-eu/

*Brexit dampens desires to leave EU*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...018-led-by-us-west-europe-study-idUSKCN1S73M1

*Anti-Semitic attacks rise worldwide in 2018, led by U.S., west Europe: study*


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> *and the EU making an example of us so the rest wont want to leave. *


I may be blinkered on this, but I'm not sure they have gone out of their way to do that. They have stuck to the rules of the EU and made it clear that they are not going to make beneficial exceptions for a country that has chosen to leave, but that has always seemed to me to be perfectly reasonable. We've certainly made an example of ourselves, though!

I'd be interested to hear an example from anyone who thinks the EU have been unreasonably intransigent, since I am obviously looking at it from a biased pov.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Rather worrying is the rise in anti -Semitism in Germany ,
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48411735


This is very sad to see, but I'm afraid it is all part of the resurgence of a xenophobia which has always bubbled if not under the surface, then certainly at only gutter levels for many years.

Brexit can't be blamed, of course, but the vote and _apparent_ attitude of Britain has certainly reduced the stigma of holding such views, especially when they can now be expressed under the more respectable heading of 'populism', suggesting to those who hold them that they are actually not a nasty little minority at all.

The likes of Farage, with his refugee poster and his talk of it being perfectly reasonable to feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next door, have legitimised a part of our psyche which I had foolishly hoped was on the wane.


----------



## Elles

Imo We are likely heading for no deal, or a second leave winning referendum, as remain supporters trot out the same old arguments, insults and implied slurs as they did last time and have continued to do for the past 3 years, despite the advice and reasoning behind why it’s inadvisable to do so. The more these old arguments are trotted out, the more any benefits of the Eu are buried beneath attacks on the character of those who want to leave it.

The Eu is coming under new management and slowly changing tack in an attempt to improve and address the concerns of its members, which I believe supportive Europeans are recognising, but is barely if ever getting mention here. In this country Eu supporters are too busy attacking Nigel Farage to do anything constructive.


----------



## Elles

I see Michael Gove has put his name forward. I like him and would vote for him, but I think if he did win, it would destroy him. Boris is more like Trump imo. He’d survive on a personal level by ignoring any naysayers and doing his own thing. He’s also quite likely to win a general election over Jeremy Corbyn, whereas Gove is more marmite, so I wouldn’t like to guess. 

I wouldn’t want Michael Gove to win the leadership contest in the current climate. We need either a remainer who calls a second referendum and GE, or a Boris who goes all out for any Brexit and gets Parliament and the Eu quaking in their boots, to settle brexit once and for all. I think Gove would be a better leader afterwards, not at this stage. I’m not a Boris fan though. 

I don’t mind if we leave or stay in, I’d just like to see someone with vision getting it sorted out so we can move on to the stage of actually organising the future relationship with the Eu.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Imo We are likely heading for no deal, or a second leave winning referendum, as *remain supporters trot out the same old arguments, insults and implied slurs *as they did last time and have continued to do for the past 3 years, despite the advice and reasoning behind why it's inadvisable to do so. The more these old arguments are trotted out, the more any benefits of the Eu are buried beneath attacks on the character of those who want to leave it.
> 
> The Eu is coming under new management and slowly changing tack in an attempt to improve and address the concerns of its members, which I believe supportive Europeans are recognising, but is barely if ever getting mention here. In this country Eu supporters are too busy attacking Nigel Farage to do anything constructive.


Do you have some examples of the insults and implied slurs that the remain supporters have been coming out with? I don't remember any from Grieve, or Umunna, or Watson, or Cable, or Lucas, or Sturgeon ...


----------



## Elles

Here's one:



Arnie83 said:


> This is very sad to see, but I'm afraid it is all part of the resurgence of a xenophobia which has always bubbled if not under the surface, then certainly at only gutter levels for many years.
> 
> Brexit can't be blamed, of course, but the vote and _apparent_ attitude of Britain has certainly reduced the stigma of holding such views, especially when they can now be expressed under the more respectable heading of 'populism', suggesting to those who hold them that they are actually not a nasty little minority at all.
> 
> The likes of Farage, with his refugee poster and his talk of it being perfectly reasonable to feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next door, have legitimised a part of our psyche which I had foolishly hoped was on the wane.


'The likes of Farage" "attitude of Britain" "populism" Where's the positive mention of the Eu? These are the same old that's been trotted out for 3 years and the implication in the post is clear and divisive imo. Anyone who voted for the Brexit party and want to leave the Eu are a nasty minority who support the likes of Farage. What do you think it means?


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I may be blinkered on this, but I'm not sure they have gone out of their way to do that. They have stuck to the rules of the EU and made it clear that they are not going to make beneficial exceptions for a country that has chosen to leave, but that has always seemed to me to be perfectly reasonable. We've certainly made an example of ourselves, though!
> 
> I'd be interested to hear an example from anyone who thinks the EU have been unreasonably intransigent, since I am obviously looking at it from a biased pov.


Ok. however , whatever the reasons why other countries are not queuing up to leave , it *was *put forward as part of Project fear so at least one of there prophecies hasn't come true . perhaps I should add "yet "



Arnie83 said:


> This is very sad to see, but I'm afraid it is all part of the resurgence of a xenophobia which has always bubbled if not under the surface, then certainly at only gutter levels for many years.
> 
> Brexit can't be blamed, of course, but the vote and _apparent_ attitude of Britain has certainly reduced the stigma of holding such views, especially when they can now be expressed under the more respectable heading of 'populism', suggesting to those who hold them that they are actually not a nasty little minority at all.
> 
> The likes of Farage, with his refugee poster and his talk of it being perfectly reasonable to feel uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next door, have legitimised a part of our psyche which I had foolishly hoped was on the wane.


Yes he's a nasty odious little man and totally wrong . Farage or no Farage, I think the refugee crisis alone would cause a resurgence but yes, he doesnt help. 

Any hate against anybody is worrying. There is no reason to hate refugees .

Do you consider the Jewish people who have lived In Britain and other European countries for several or more generations to still be refugees? They are Germans , they are British , they are French . etc There's no excuse to hate them because they are refugees. 
The Left are as bad , perhaps for a difference reason , because of Israel . Look at Labour's attitude in the UK. 
Perhaps the EU has helped keep peace between countries but how can it stop the countries hating their own people and bringing in their own laws , What if the countries banded together , even Britain with a Labour government , and made certain laws, EU ones . 
Would the safe guards work in the future? Im not sure if the EU can protect people in individual countries , what can they do expect fine them or kick them out of the EU. We would have to rely on the UN peace corps.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Do you have some examples of the insults and implied slurs that the remain supporters have been coming out with? I don't remember any from Grieve, or Umunna, or Watson, or Cable, or Lucas, or Sturgeon ...


 I dont think Elles meant the MPs , I took it she meant the general people who voted Remain.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I don't mind if we leave or stay in, I'd just like to see someone with vision getting it sorted out so we can move on to the stage of actually organising the future relationship with the Eu.


I feel like that now. All this nastiness and arguing . I just want it to end .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I dont think Elles meant the MPs , I took it she meant the general people who voted Remain.


That's how I read it!

You've only to read on this thread. some of the language used by Remainers towards Leavers to find good examples of exactly what Elles means!


----------



## Elles

I think Labour and Corbyn’s attitude towards Jewish people is worse in some respects. We expect Nigel Farage to be anti immigration, but Labour being anti Jewish gives the haters far more encouragement, as Labour isn’t Farage, it’s supposed to be kindly politics for the people and not just some of them. 

It’s very difficult tbh. If you’re a brexiteer who is interested in the environment and equality, voting against remaining in the Eu as you don’t think it’s working, who the hell do you vote for? Conservative is the closest.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> 'The likes of Farage" "attitude of Britain" "populism" Where's the positive mention of the Eu? These are the same old that's been trotted out for 3 years and the implication in the post is clear and divisive imo. Anyone who voted for the Brexit party and want to leave the Eu are a nasty minority who support the likes of Farage. What do you think it means?


One really does have to be careful crafting posts in case they are misinterpreted.

I was replying to the link and referring to the rise of anti-semitism in Germany, and stated, quite clearly, I thought, "*Brexit can't be blamed, of course*". I even split my reply into 2 separate posts so as not to risk anyone linking the two. And yet I am apparently insulting all Leave voters.

I completely stand by my comment, however, that 'the likes of Farage' - i.e. those people who share his views regarding refugees and Romanians - have stirred up xenophobic sentiment during the Brexit debate. But had I meant 'Leavers' then I would have said 'Leavers', but didn't.

From your 'attitude of Britain' quote you missed out the italicised word 'apparent', which was specifically included so as to ...

Actually, I can't be bothered with having to explain myself every time someone takes umbrage at a post that is carefully designed so as not to upset people who nevertheless choose to be offended by it. I'm sorry, but I've had enough. Bye.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> But the media and public love him.


Yes, indeed they do; not sure why. But what I do know is that his public cuddly ''persona'' - big, blond, bumbling Boris the buffoon - is definitely an act to endear people to him. I know someone who worked with him when he was editor of the _Spectator_ and he reckons the guy is as sharp as a blade, nothing bumbling about him.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Yes, indeed they do; not sure why. But what I do know is that his public cuddly ''persona'' - big, blond, bumbling Boris the buffoon - is definitely an act to endear people to him. I know someone who worked with him when he was editor of the _Spectator_ and he reckons the guy is as sharp as a blade, nothing bumbling about him.


Sure he is and so is Trump. Chilling to the bone...


----------



## DogLover1981

kimthecat said:


> I feel like that now. All this nastiness and arguing . I just want it to end .





Elles said:


> I don't mind if we leave or stay in, I'd just like to see someone with vision getting it sorted out so we can move on to the stage of actually organising the future relationship with the Eu.


The drama related to brexit is unlikely to end any time soon, IMO. I think it's possible that the UK will rejoin the EU in a decade or so and there will surely be some drama attached to that.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Yes, indeed they do; not sure why. But what I do know is that his public cuddly ''persona'' - big, blond, bumbling Boris the buffoon - is definitely an act to endear people to him. I know someone who worked with him when he was editor of the _Spectator_ and he reckons the guy is as sharp as a blade, nothing bumbling about him.


Indeed. We saw his true colours in the 2016 referendum campaign which he won narrowly through lies and peddling Farage like propaganda.

Like May before him, a potentially very dangerous character I reckon.


----------



## kimthecat

DogLover1981 said:


> The drama related to brexit is unlikely to end any time soon, IMO. I think it's possible that the UK will rejoin the EU in a decade or so and there will surely be some drama attached to that.


Do you think the EU will have us back?


----------



## kimthecat

It looks like the Brexit party are winning the most votes so far , followed by Lib dem


----------



## DogLover1981

kimthecat said:


> Do you think the EU will have us back?


Who knows really. International politics tends to change a bit over time.


----------



## DogLover1981

It's like how about only historians and people that are interested in history talk about past politicians. It'll probably be true of Trump and his antics in another 10 or 20 years.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> It looks like the Brexit party are winning the most votes so far , followed by Lib dem


Through the FPP system the Farage Party may have won the most votes in most areas as a party at the expense of pro Leave Tory and Labour voters, but in a lot of places the collective pro Remain vote is a lot higher if the Lib Dems, Greens and Change UK votes are combined.

As usual, the smaller parties have fragmented that vote.

Had Labour come out as being pro Remain or at least pro PV they would've done considerably better, but lost most of the pro-Remain vote to the Greens and Lib Dems. I, for one don't regret giving my vote to a pro Remain party at the expense of Labour I usually would have voted for by default.

If anything good comes from these results tonight they'll be a leadership challenge against Corbyn.

Unlike the last time in, 2016 they are potential good leaders in the offering, so the chances of him winning would be slim. I think most of us now really see him for what he is. Bloody useless.

Time for him to retire and let someone who lives in the 21st Century take over.
Then, like May I doubt he will stand down without being pushed.


----------



## Elles

Interesting listening to the Scottish MP Ian Blackford and how they talk about and promote the Eu. Quite different to how it’s discussed in England. That’ll be why Scotland vote remain. The SNP stance is a lot more positive.

“The Eu belongs to all of us, we agree to pool sovereignty, we have to work together and we have to show that sense of leadership that comes with that. I think that one of the reasons that Scotland is different from other parts of the U.K. is that we’ve taken that on, we’ve championed that and we have said that we have benefitted very strongly from the European Union. Scotland benefits from free movement of people, we need it to grow our economy, so the debate’s been very different and I think we have to be very reflective of all those things as well.” 

He also said that politics in Westminster needs to change and we should have proportional representation.


----------



## KittenKong

While the BBC and other media embrace the 'Farage Landslide' this is what the actual votes break down to. Conservative and Labour considered as "Brexit with deal" parties rather than No Deal or Remain ones.

The Tories and Labour could, of course secured some Remain and "Soft Brexit" votes of course where tactical voting against Farage is concerned.
























And in Scotland, wow! Fantastic result for the SNP


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Do you think the EU will have us back?


 Yes, I'm sure they will; they won't say ''No thanks'' to our money.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Interesting listening to the Scottish MP Ian Blackford and how they talk about and promote the Eu. Quite different to how it's discussed in England. That'll be why Scotland vote remain. The SNP stance is a lot more positive.
> 
> "The Eu belongs to all of us, we agree to pool sovereignty, we have to work together and we have to show that sense of leadership that comes with that. I think that one of the reasons that Scotland is different from other parts of the U.K. is that we've taken that on, we've championed that and we have said that we have benefitted very strongly from the European Union. Scotland benefits from free movement of people, we need it to grow our economy, so the debate's been very different and I think we have to be very reflective of all those things as well."
> 
> He also said that politics in Westminster needs to change and we should have proportional representation.


Yet the SNP want to be independent from the UK . Don't they benefit from being part of the UK?


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Same hairdresser?


Hairdresser? I thought they just used a Flymo!


----------



## Jesthar

Arnie83 said:


> One really does have to be careful crafting posts in case they are misinterpreted.
> 
> I was replying to the link and referring to the rise of anti-semitism in Germany, and stated, quite clearly, I thought, "*Brexit can't be blamed, of course*". I even split my reply into 2 separate posts so as not to risk anyone linking the two. And yet I am apparently insulting all Leave voters.
> 
> I completely stand by my comment, however, that 'the likes of Farage' - i.e. those people who share his views regarding refugees and Romanians - have stirred up xenophobic sentiment during the Brexit debate. But had I meant 'Leavers' then I would have said 'Leavers', but didn't.
> 
> From your 'attitude of Britain' quote you missed out the italicised word 'apparent', which was specifically included so as to ...
> 
> Actually, I can't be bothered with having to explain myself every time someone takes umbrage at a post that is carefully designed so as not to upset people who nevertheless choose to be offended by it. I'm sorry, but I've had enough. Bye.


I'm not normally one to beg, but PLEASE don't leave this thread Arnie. Your posts are always some of the most reasoned, balanced and constructive on here...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I'm not normally one to beg, but PLEASE don't leave this thread Arnie. Your posts are always some of the most reasoned, balanced and constructive on here...


I'll second that!

I'm sorry you're upset Arnie, because in my book you're one of the few Remainers on this thread who's prepared to consider the other person's point of view which certainly by me, is much appreciated.


----------



## kimthecat

@Arnie83 Agree with Jesthar and Magyarmum. perhaps take a little break and then come back , please . pretty, please?


----------



## Snoringbear

My takeaway from the uk results so far is that there is no point fence sitting. Leavers BP are the majority party, with a combination of remain parties sharing a similar level of vote shares. Can’t comment further on that till all the results are in. Both the Cons and Labours seemed to have suffered from lack of direction and complacency, my initial thoughts - Cons will pursue a more aggressive no deal Brexit policy, labour will need to make a decision which way they go.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Yet the SNP want to be independent from the UK . Don't they benefit from being part of the UK?


Yes, but that's not the point. 

The point is looking at how the people of Scotland voted, seeing that it was Remain and trying to emulate their persuasive arguments, rather than just copying what didn't work in England last time, which is what is happening.


----------



## Elles

The Netherlands voted overwhelmingly for pro Eu parties. Their eurosceptic party was expected to do really well, but was annihilated. Remainers here should look to see why. 

Of course rather than looking for positives, remainers are saying it’s because of how badly our government are doing with Brexit. I’d say why would the Dutch think they’d do as badly as Theresa May if they wanted to leave and do you think they’re too fearful to risk it? That’s an insult to the Dutch.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Yes, but that's not the point.
> 
> The point is looking at how the people of Scotland voted, seeing that it was Remain and trying to emulate their persuasive arguments, rather than just copying what didn't work in England last time, which is what is happening.


Well sure but we're allowed to comment on points that aren't the point I hope 
It just struck me that the SNP are being hypocritical and I wanted to point that out.


----------



## kimthecat

Seeing as Brexit Party has done well , I wonder what the result would be if there was another referendum; would Leave win and would Remain accept that.
Ive always felt that there was a good chance of Remain winning but not so sure now.


ETA #CorbynOut is trending on Twitter. Labour Remainers are furious with him .


----------



## Elles

I’ve always thought leave would win another. 

Most of the leavers I know and have spoken with (4) don’t support Nigel Farage and vote green. Most of the remain voters I know and have spoken with (2) also voted Green. The Green Party came second in Exeter and usually does well in my constituency in local elections. We had a Green councillor, but he stepped down recently. We’re all fluffy bunny green voters here, leave or remain lol.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Seeing as Brexit Party has done well , I wonder what the result would be if there was another referendum; would Leave win and would Remain accept that.
> Ive always felt that there was a good chance of Remain winning but not so sure now.
> 
> ETA #CorbynOut is trending on Twitter. Labour Remainers are furious with him .


Taken them long enough.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Seeing as Brexit Party has done well , I wonder what the result would be if there was another referendum; would Leave win and would Remain accept that.
> Ive always felt that there was a good chance of Remain winning but not so sure now.
> 
> ETA #CorbynOut is trending on Twitter. Labour Remainers are furious with him .


 I doubt they would run a simple in or out referendum again, as that would just leave us where we are - completed divided! 
It would have to be a referendum on accepting a deal of some sort or leaving without a deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit Party did well as about maybe one third of UK May want to have Brexit no matter what.

The rest would probably not have hard Brexit.
Labour failed to take stand and not many will vote for sitting on the fence party ... hence Lib Dem and Green rising, combined about the same result as Brexit party.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> I doubt they would run a simple in or out referendum again, as that would just leave us where we are - completed divided!
> It would have to be a referendum on accepting a deal of some sort or leaving without a deal.


Revoking A50 would have to be on the paper too, otherwise they'd be no point. The results in Scotland speak for themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> I'm not normally one to beg, but PLEASE don't leave this thread Arnie. Your posts are always some of the most reasoned, balanced and constructive on here...


Seconded.

Wish Goblin would come back. Hope you're ok.


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Monday 27 May 2019 by Arabin Patson*

*Jeremy Corbyn shocks nation by making his 136th call for a General Election*









*In an unprecedented move that has taken the political world by surprise, Jeremy Corbyn has declared that he wants a General Election as he believes the best way to choose a new leader of the Tory party is to put Labour in power.*

Momentum activist Simon Williams was one of many to applaud his leader's audacity and innovative thinking.

"This is why Jeremy Corbyn is a breath of fresh air. It takes an unconventional leader to call for general elections whenever the Tories stab each other in the back, someone asks him about Brexit or a sudden noise wakes him up from a nap.

"I'm so glad he's such a great communicator, otherwise people might think he's a power-obsessed egocentric who thinks the cure to all of' society's ill is to put him in charge."

Mr Williams was adamant a snap general election would be the panacea to Britain's worsening hatred between factions and ongoing Brexit paralysis.

He went on, "The reason our country's political tribes are fighting each other with increasing hatred and no signs of any civic compromise is that they want yet another chance to vote for Jeremy.

"Sure, they failed to put Jeremy in power in 2017, gave us a drubbing in the local elections, and now in the EU elections too, but that's just because they're warming themselves up with trial runs.

"But the Murdoch press would have you believe he's not in power because he's a political fossil that has surrounded himself with moonies and has all the appeal of a pint of stout that was poured yesterday."

Jeremy Corbyn's last formal call for a General Election was made yesterday evening after he was startled by a stray cat going through the bins.


----------



## kimthecat

Aladdin the musical is playing in London , a job for Corbyn then . Its right on his doorstep and he'd be perfect as Wishy Washy


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder if they would expel any Lexiter Labour members for voting Farage?

As with the Tories removing whip from Michael Hestletine this is absolutely disgusting.

I salute both of them for putting country before party with their pro remain stance.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> While the BBC and other media embrace the 'Farage Landslide' this is what the actual votes break down to. Conservative and Labour considered as "Brexit with deal" parties rather than No Deal or Remain ones.
> 
> The Tories and Labour could, of course secured some Remain and "Soft Brexit" votes of course where tactical voting against Farage is concerned.
> 
> View attachment 404963
> View attachment 404964
> View attachment 404965
> 
> 
> And in Scotland, wow! Fantastic result for the SNP


Funny just using Wales numbers and then going aaaahhh it's the same over their in England too... errr what!!!


----------



## KittenKong

From Twitter:


----------



## Jesthar

Just catching up properly after a weekend away 


Elles said:


> Here's one:
> 
> 'The likes of Farage" "attitude of Britain" "populism" Where's the positive mention of the Eu? These are the same old that's been trotted out for 3 years and the implication in the post is clear and divisive imo. Anyone who voted for the Brexit party and want to leave the Eu are a nasty minority who support the likes of Farage. What do you think it means?


I've debated whether or not to respon to this, but in balance I can't let it lie. Any time a quote is taken out of context it becomes a pretext, and that is dangerous (as one of my teachers used to say). So, in this case..

"The likes of Farage" - this is an accurate observation, not a slur. When influential people like Farage start talking negatively about any group of people, it gives the green light for people who personally hold similar beliefs to become far more open in their dislike, discrimination, or even hatred. That's just logical fact.

"attitude of Britain" - the FULL phrase was "the _apparent_ attitude of Britain" (italicisation original, not mine), and you only have to take a quick and objective look through any number of red top and Daily Mail headlines to figure out what a negative image we are presenting to the rest of the world in these areas.

"populism" - this formed part of another accurate observation, which was that "[xenophobia views] can now be expressed under the more respectable heading of 'populism', *suggesting to those who hold them that they are actually not a nasty little minority at all*." (emphasis mine) I don't see how the phrase 'nasty little minority' can possibly imply the author applies it to anyone who voted for the Brexit party and want to leave the EU, especially given that the post being replied to was about the recent resurgence of anti-Semitism in Germany and didn't directly mention Brexit at all. I think it means exactly what was said - that a very small minority group of British xenophobes and racists have been emboldened by the likes of Farage to start spouting off their hateful views confidently and in public. But whilst it is pretty much garanteed that all that small group voted Brexit Party, it does _not _follow that everyone who voted Brexit Party is xenophobic.

As to the rest, I'm not sure why positive talk about the EU needs to be shoehorned into every remain centric post (especially given it is frequently ignored or dosmissed), and if the facts on certain topics haven't changed in three years then it's a bit tricky not to repeat them...


----------



## Elles

It’s every post though, not just some. I’ve posted articles and links to positivity over the Eu and why all the negativity isn’t working and barely had a reply. But there’s post after post after post explaining to us all about fascism, populism, racism, tribalism and farageism and how only the young can now save us from ourselves. I wasn’t specifically talking about the post I chose, the context, or the poster, but the words and now I’ve mentioned them again, in another context, but still more of the same. 

I’m being selfish, I wanted to discuss the Conservative and Lib Dem party leadership and where we might go now TM has stood down and Vince Cable is about to, and the future of the Eu generally, particularly in view of the recent election results here and in Europe, but no one else seems to want to.


----------



## Elles

I would say instead of leaving because of one post from one poster, put me on ignore? No-one has to take any notice of me and if they want to carry on as before I can complain about it can’t I, it doesn’t mean anyone has to do anything about it.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I wanted to discuss the Conservative and Lib Dem party leadership and where we might go now TM has stood down and Vince Cable is about to, and the future of the Eu generally, particularly in view of the recent election results here and in Europe, but no one else seems to want to.


Would make a good thread in its own right?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> It's every post though, not just some. I've posted articles and links to positivity over the Eu and why all the negativity isn't working and barely had a reply. But there's post after post after post explaining to us all about fascism, populism, racism, tribalism and farageism and how only the young can now save us from ourselves.


Many of us (mainly remainers, if memory serves) have posted positive things about the EU, but as you say such things tend to get ignored - after all, it's hard to have a lengthy and involved debate about things that are boringly clear cut, it would be like trying to have a protracted discussion about 2+2=4 (in base 10 maths, obviously  ). Plus the mechanics of EU frictionless trade, EU environmental directives, EU employment protections etc. are rather boring topics to most people - often right up until the point they realise how much they'd miss them!


Elles said:


> But there's post after post after post explaining to us all about fascism, populism, racism, tribalism and farageism and how only the young can now save us from ourselves.


Barring the 'only the young can save us now' part (which I don't really recall seeing frequently, or even implied frequently), I think that is a very important topic to debate. EU integration has been a significant factor in helping to keep a lid on many negative opinionists (from basic xenophobia to out and out hatemongers) for over half a century, and encouraged discourse and diplomacy in place of suspicion and aggression. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it has given us the longest period of peace in Europe.

Personally I think it is perfectly possible to be both proud of where you are from and also appreciate being an EU citizen. Unfortunately others seem to believe it's one or the other, to the extent some of the more extreme of those hold 'EU meddling' resposible for Britain no longer ruling the waves and other jingoisting claptrap. The only reliable counter to this is education, and a lot of the time education doesnt stick first go. Please note, I don't personally hold with copying and pasting the same phrases over and over again, but on the other hand it's hard to avoid that sometimes when the facts haven't changed in the years since they were first noted! 


Elles said:


> I wasn't specifically talking about the post I chose, the context, or the poster, but the words and now I've mentioned them again, in another context, but still more of the same.


Ah, right. That's a shame, as it may have been your intention, but unfortunately it isn't the way it reads, sorry... As Arnie said, it can be hard to convey context in words alone, we're so used to interpreting body language and intonation rather than just black and white text.


Elles said:


> I'm being selfish, I wanted to discuss the Conservative and Lib Dem party leadership and where we might go now TM has stood down and Vince Cable is about to, and the future of the Eu generally, particularly in view of the recent election results here and in Europe, but no one else seems to want to.


Current internal party politics bores me stiff - too much backstabby amateur dramatics and not enough sensible discourse at the moment. Might be better with it's own thread. As for the EU, whether we leave or not I suspect it will carry on quite serenely imcreasing it's influence on the world stage - positivity regarding EU membership seems to have increased for the majority of EU member countries in the last few years (probably partly due to the complete stuff up UK politicians have made of the Brexit negotiations  ), and the more cohesive the EU unit appears to be, the more clout it has to stand up to Big Boys like China and Big Babies like Trump


----------



## Elles

I think there have been huge changes in the past 3 years and not just in Britain. There has been a huge shift in just the past week in many parts of Europe. The Eu has undergone change, albeit slowly, over the past 3 years too. I think change (for the better in many respects) are in part down to our voting to leave it. 

It was, imo, a wake up call to the powers in their Eu ivory towers. Discussing that it’s had a wake up call and how there’s a shift to review and alter the CAP and to prioritise issues such as climate change, which were, if we’re honest, barely on the radar 3 years ago, could be more fruitful than still talking about minority fascists and Nigel Farage. 

Unless we’re going to talk about the Farage appeal and how to be more appealing than he is. He is a charismatic figure and the opposition need one too. Someone with charisma and enthusiasm who can get their points across and win support. Unfortunately Corbyn isn’t it. So who? What do people think of Rory Stewart for example? 

At the moment we’re heading for Boris. I think he will get in, because the tories will think he has more chance of winning an election. I think he’s a terrible choice, but I’m pretty sure he’ll get brexit if he gets in and we may well regret the brexit he gets.

I agree though, if you read petforums you’d think we need educating on specific points and views repeatedly, even though no one on petforums has ever held or expressed those views, and that nothing has changed in the past 3 years. That kind of was my point lol.


----------



## rona

Did I hear right on the BBC yesterday, the Brexit party is the second biggest party in the EU parliament?:Jawdrop

If so.......that's hilarious :Joyful :Joyful


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Did I hear right on the BBC yesterday, the Brexit party is the second biggest party in the EU parliament?:Jawdrop
> 
> If so.......that's hilarious :Joyful :Joyful


oh the irony !


----------



## Jesthar

Well, this might add some additional spice to the Conservative leadership chaos - Boris Johnson has been ordered to appear in court for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit - specifically the 'We send the EU £350 million a week' claim.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mUGOBEaTIbA7UxWsCjC-bKvohSDCWYGh6r4s4DCDTLsto

Maximum sentance of life imprisonment if he's convicted


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Well, this might add some additional spice to the Conservative leadership chaos - Boris Johnson has been ordered to appear in court for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit - specifically the 'We send the EU £350 million a week' claim.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mUGOBEaTIbA7UxWsCjC-bKvohSDCWYGh6r4s4DCDTLsto
> 
> Maximum sentance of life imprisonment if he's convicted


From the article

"Democracy demands responsible and honest leadership from those in public office"

:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Wish Goblin would come back. Hope you're ok.


 Not thinking to correct you, but: did you mean Arnie83? He's the one who recently went off radar (and the one several of us miss).


----------



## Elles

I took a few days off and no one even noticed. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I took a few days off and no one even noticed. :Hilarious


Me did!


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Well, this might add some additional spice to the Conservative leadership chaos - Boris Johnson has been ordered to appear in court for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit - specifically the 'We send the EU £350 million a week' claim.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mUGOBEaTIbA7UxWsCjC-bKvohSDCWYGh6r4s4DCDTLsto
> 
> Maximum sentance of life imprisonment if he's convicted


What about Gove?


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> What about Gove?


In what context - getting taken to court, or running for leadership?


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> What about Gove?


Don't arrest Gove!  Trouble is every politician has got something wrong, we should arrest all of them lol.

Silly thing is they could have put £50m a week on the side of a bus and people would still have thought it was a lot of money that they'd rather the nhs had. It just shows how out of touch they all are that they had to put the highest amount they could wangle. They clearly don't understand the dhs style of advertising. They could have put 'up to' which would have been more accurate.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> In what context - getting taken to court, or running for leadership?


Both 



Elles said:


> Don't arrest Gove!  Trouble is every politician has got something wrong, we should arrest all of them lol.


But he was part of it . So it should be both of them in the dock .

Perhaps we should have a black or Asian PM ? Its about time we did .


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Don't arrest Gove!  Trouble is every politician has got something wrong, we should arrest all of them lol.


There is a vast difference, though, between 'getting something wrong' and 'deliberately misleading the public'



Elles said:


> Silly thing is they could have put £50m a week on the side of a bus and people would still have thought it was a lot of money that they'd rather the nhs had. It just shows how out of touch they all are that they had to put the highest amount they could wangle. They clearly don't understand the dhs style of advertising. They could have put 'up to' which would have been more accurate.


Yes, they could have - but they didn't. Personally I can't believe they didn't know that the statement "We send £350m a week to the EU" was exceedingly inaccurate before they went public with it - and even if they didn't know beforehand they were corrected by many sources pretty much as soon as they first came out with it.

But the kicker is that even once it was pointed out the claim was false, they STILL they carried on spouting it, rather than retracting, clarifying and correcting. How can that be anything other than deliberate?


----------



## Elles

I have been doing some research and it will be relatively easy when taking into account vat and duty and various other things we wouldn’t be paying if we weren’t in the Eu, Boris’ accountants will easily be able to suggest that the figure was under rather than overestimated and there is no case to answer.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I have been doing some research and it will be relatively easy *when taking into account vat and duty and various other things we wouldn't be paying if we weren't in the Eu*, Boris' accountants will easily be able to suggest that the figure was under rather than overestimated and there is no case to answer.


VAT replaced the old UK Purchase Tax, so we'd still have been paying an equivalent tax, possiblty at a higher percentage - who knows?

However, we never send 66% of our gross VAT contribution the EU at all thanks to the rebate. So we only ever actually send the EU around £276m a week, and our overall net contribution drops to around £161m a week once you take into account all the money that comes back into the UK in grants and subsidies etc.

How that basic and simple maths can be manipulated enough to claim that stating we routinely send the EU £350m a week was actually an underestimate, I'm not sure!


----------



## Elles

The money that comes back doesn’t go to the nhs. If it wasn’t processed via the Eu and Boris kept it and decided what to do with it, it could technically go to the nhs, instead of in grants to universities and farmers.

All I’m saying is in law with clever accountants and economists, Boris can probably prove that we pay the Eu double what it said on the bus. We might raise our eyebrows at it, but I don’t think he’s going to prison.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euractiv.com/section/av...to-remain-in-uk-regardless-of-brexit-outcome/

*Airbus now wants to remain in UK regardless of Brexit outcome*


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Not thinking to correct you, but: did you mean Arnie83? He's the one who recently went off radar (and the one several of us miss).


Yes, I did indeed mean Arnie. 
Miss Goblin too though.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> We might raise our eyebrows at it, but I don't think he's going to prison.


Lord no; he will play the bumbling buffoon as usual, have the court in hysterics and end up being a ''national treasure'', a bit like Ken Dodd on his tax evasion charge. Not sure if he took his 'diddy men'' to court.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...ut-in-cheers-as-tax-case-jury-frees-ken-dodd/


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> The money that comes back doesn't go to the nhs. If it wasn't processed via the Eu and Boris kept it and decided what to do with it, it could technically go to the nhs, instead of in grants to universities and farmers.


The case isn't about what we get back from the EU or the implications of how it might otherwise be spent, though. It's simply about the fact we don't SEND the EU anywhere near £350m a week as was claimed - including the VAT element - even before the money we get back in grants and subsidies is taken into account. Yes, it's technically what we _should_ send as our core payment, but because of the rebate, we don't. Nor is it about what we might theoretically send in the future if the economy grows - it's about what was true at the time.

For example, suppose I went around telling everyone I give my landlord £350 a week rent. If you then found out that although £350 a week was the market rate, I only actually physically handed over £276 a week rent because of a modified contract, you could quite rightly pull me up as a liar for saying I gave the landlord £350 a week - because I don't.



Elles said:


> All I'm saying is in law with clever accountants and economists, Boris can probably prove that we pay the Eu double what it said on the bus. We might raise our eyebrows at it, but I don't think he's going to prison.


And if he wants to get into that kind of territory, I'm pretty sure other clever accountants and economists can prove that the monetary beenfits of being in the EU mean we pay far less than it said on the bus (even if that weren't really a moot point in this case).

Oh, I too doubt he's going to prison - wouldn't it be fun if he did, though!  Maybe they could use him as a model in the trainee hairdresser course... (hedgetrimmers at the ready!)


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Boris is such a liar, says Gove*
30th May 2019









*MICHAEL Gove has confirmed that Boris Johnson is the most appalling liar.*

The Tory leadership candidate said his rival made a deliberate decision to stand in front of a bus with a preposterous claim written on the side if it and must be punished.

Gove added: "This is typical of Boris and is yet more evidence of why he is unfit for the highest office.

"Britain needs a prime minister who will behave responsibly and not stand in front of buses painted with obviously untrue slogans.

"That's not me in the photograph, that's Andrea Leadsom. I'm actually much taller.

"I was in a forest caring deeply about the environment."


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 405403


 His ''A'' level results were pretty sad, too - two E's.


----------



## Calvine

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> His ''A'' level results were pretty sad, too - two E's.


Oh well, so were my son's , at least I don't have to worry, he can be a PM one day!!!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh well, so were my son's , at least I don't have to worry, he can be a PM one day!!!


I don't think John Major got any!!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> he can be a PM one day!!!


Maybe sooner than he was expecting (like this year) :Hilarious!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Maybe sooner than he was expecting (like this year) :Hilarious!


Meant my son !!! 
He is just 18...

Trump recommended BoJo for next PM... Imagine them holding hands....


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Meant my son !!!
> He is just 18...
> 
> Trump recommended BoJo for next PM... Imagine them holding hands....


Imagine the uproar if Brussels decided who should be PM?

Oh, the irony!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Meant my son !!


So did I!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Imagine the uproar if Brussels decided who should be PM?
> 
> Oh, the irony!


There's is called a President


----------



## Happy Paws2

Trump has endorsed Boris, who would vote for anyone Trump backs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> So did I!


He cannot be much worse than the bunch we have already... plus he is kind to animals.... and anti Brexit!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Trump has endorsed Boris, who would vote for anyone Trump backs.


The answer is obvious: Putin !!!!

The wind under Trump's wings...now Trump pushes for Boris...

Met one of my Russian mates yesterday... very excited about hard Brexit and great Putin supporter... she said " We will now conquer Britain from inside , we will not give Britain to Germany, Russia will be the first power in Europe... and the world"...


----------



## kimthecat

Trump was asked his opinion and he gave it. The same as Obama did .
I certainly dont agree with him!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Imagine the uproar if Brussels decided who should be PM?
> 
> Oh, the irony!


Trumps not deciding any more than Brussels would. So no, its not irony.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Trump recommended BoJo for next PM... Imagine them holding hands....


rool oh yuck! Ive got that image in my head now!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Trump was asked his opinion and he gave it. The same as Obama did .
> I certainly dont agree with him!


Obama gave an opinion on leaving the EU but I don`t remember him giving opinions on the candidates in the last conservative leadership contest. He may have done I just don`t remember it. I find it very worrying that several candidates have apparently asked for Trumps endorsement.


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> Obama gave an opinion on leaving the EU


 He did indeed . . . some comment about UK being at the back of the queue if they dared to leave . . . ?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> He did indeed . . . some comment about UK being at the back of the queue if they dared to leave . . . ?


Yes he did but I don`t remember him giving his backing to any candidate in the leadership contest, of course Obama was at the end of his Presidency, Trump could get another term. As I said I find it worrying if those contesting to be the next PM are asking Trump to endorse them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

3dogs2cats said:


> Yes he did but I don`t remember him giving his backing to any candidate in the leadership contest, of course Obama was at the end of his Presidency, Trump could get another term. As I said I find it worrying if those contesting to be the next PM are asking Trump to endorse them.


Why? Isn't it obvious that coming out of EU we are to cosy up to our Big Orange Bro?
So seems fit to elect his lookalike?
So much for splendid isolation and glorious independence.
Poodle of America....is more like it...

That will never put is in danger of joining any EU army and getting involved in some nasty war far far away...:Banghead:Banghead


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> Trump could get another term.


Scarily enough, it could well happen. People laughed at the idea first time round . . .


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Scarily enough, it could well happen. People laughed at the idea first time round . . .


Im beginning to think he will.  . He gets away with everything.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Im beginning to think he will.  . He gets away with everything.


People like to hear "America First "...
Or "Britain First "...
Or " Germany First "....

Populism wins .


----------



## Happy Paws2

Think he will get in again, people will vote for the most odd things


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Im beginning to think he will.


I imagine it depends on the ''alternative'': it was Hillary Clinton last time.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Populism wins .


Apparently Cambridge Dictionary voted ''populism'' its ''word of the year'' in 2017! Before then, I don't think anyone had heard it; I certainly hadn't. ''Patriotism'' was commonly used, although it had a different meaning.


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn will apparently be joining protests against Trump. Not sure if a potential PM should do this. Of course, its one way of regaining his popularity.


----------



## Elles

Although I don’t particularly like him, there are worse dictators than Trump and he is president of the USA. I don’t think it’s right for the leader of the opposition to protest against him. He might have to work with him if he was ever PM, however unlikely that seems. I’d join protests against Corbyn.  Labour need a new leader. 

Anyone else been watching ‘Thatcher a very British revolution’? When you see what they inherited from Labour at the time, not quite such good old days were they. We are far better off now, whatever the naysayers want us to think. There are tremendous problems with the safety net for some people that still needs sorting out, but until they get past brexit how likely will it be to actually get sorted.


----------



## AlexPed2393

I just think Labour are going down the drain due to Corbyn.

Has anyone else seen his new plans for council tax? Sounds very dangerous for home owners


----------



## stuaz

One of the reasons we are in this mess politically is down to Labour and Corbyn in my opinion. The purpose of the "opposition" is to be able to hold the government to account, but the current labour opposition under his rule is so weak.

If it went to a general election, which is highly possible, labour is very unlikely to win which unfortunately will produce a even more fragmented parliament.


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> I just think Labour are going down the drain due to Corbyn.
> 
> Has anyone else seen his new plans for council tax? Sounds very dangerous for home owners


 No . What are they ?


----------



## AlexPed2393

kimthecat said:


> No . What are they ?


Quoted from Telegraph

Jeremy Corbyn has unveiled plans for a new tax raid on middle-class homeowners which will see those with larger family homes and gardens pay significantly more.

A new report, commissioned by Labour, suggests that council tax should be scrapped and replaced with a "progressive property tax".

The tax would be payable by property owners, rather than tenants, and would be based on "regularly updated" property values.

The report says there would be a "progressively higher rate of taxation" for each of top four property bands by value.

The proposed tax raid is one of a raft of policies being considered by Labour after the publication of a new report entitled "land for the many".

Labour is also considering plans for "compulsory sale orders" to give public authorities the right to seize land that has been left vacant or derelict and sell it at public auction.

James Brokenshire, the Housing Secretary, said: "These proposals are extraordinary and deeply damaging in equal measure.

"This tax bombshell for families would mean family homes with gardens paying far more and higher taxes on pensioners by abolishing the single person discount."

Jon Trickett, shadow Cabinet Office minister, said people in the UK have "little or no say over the decisions that affect their communities and the places in which they live".

The report calls for "democratic participation in planning" by introducing a form of jury service for plan making and adopting the Scottish principle of a "Right to Roam" across all uncultivated land and water, excluding gardens and other exceptions.

Labour has welcomed the report's recommendations and said it will consider them as part its policy development ahead of the next general election.

Mr Trickett added: "So much of this can be traced back to the broken system of land ownership. "Concentration of land in the hands of a few has led to unwanted developments, unaffordable house prices, financial crises and environmental degradation.

"Labour is committed to tackling these head on and delivering a fundamental shift in wealth and power from the few to the many.

"I commend the authors of this report for the work they have done in setting out these new and radical ideas. We will be studying these recommendations in detail."

The report finds since 1995 the value of land in the UK increased from around £1 trillion to over £5 trillion. By 2016, the cost of land accounted, on average, for 70 per cent of the price of a home. The price of agricultural land has increased by 462 per cent since 1995.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Although I don't particularly like him, there are worse dictators than Trump and he is president of the USA.


Absolutely; and this country has hosted them with not much in the way of protest, certainly no silly balloons. DT and his wife are here to commemorate the 75th anniversary of DD as far as I am aware.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/30/donald-trump-state-visit-uk-controversial-tradition


----------



## Jesthar

Hmm, I might be misreading things, but this:



AlexPed2393 said:


> The tax would be payable by property owners, rather than tenants, and would be based on "regularly updated" property values.


actually might make sense if implemented properly. Buy To Let is making a lot of housing unaffordable for regular families looking to buy their own home (thus keeping them locked in the rental trap), so anything that might reverse that trend could be good.

Keeping the single person discount would be nice (I benefit from that), but I can see why readers of the Torygraph might be more annoyed than most annoyed - chances are their readership would be more affected than most


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Hmm, I might be misreading things, but this:
> 
> actually might make sense if implemented properly. Buy To Let is making a lot of housing unaffordable for regular families looking to buy their own home (thus keeping them locked in the rental trap), so anything that might reverse that trend could be good.
> 
> Keeping the single person discount would be nice (I benefit from that), but I can see why readers of the Torygraph might be more annoyed than most annoyed - chances are their readership would be more affected than most


Knowing any government, never mind Labour or the Tories it wouldn't be implemented properly. I already pay out my eyeballs for council tax in Darlington of all places so to see that rise even more through a different form of tax is a daunting prospect.

Labour are catering themselves more and more to the socialist concept and it is a vicious circle especially targeting the middle class. You have more people needing help from the government which costs more money, to get this extra money you need to tax others more be that in whatever form you want. But then more people are thrown into needing help or subsidaries from the government so then even more extra money will have to be gathered.

I just don't like it, the last thing we need is more tax and with so much of our wage packets going to National Insurance, inheritance tax is an absolute shambles, tariffs, the sugar tax, everything. I think we are paying enough as it is. Well I definitely am.

I just like the way the telegraph do their sport articles the most I only saw this before I got there. I wouldn't know who to vote for right now between labour and conservative


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn will apparently be joining protests against Trump. Not sure if a potential PM should do this. Of course, its one way of regaining his popularity.


Yes, I thought that funnily enough. Thoughts of, "Keep your enemies close" comes to mind.

Yet he was content to work with Theresa May on a compromise to her Brexit plan.

Update- seems, according to the BBC Trump has refused to meet Corbyn anyway.


----------



## Snoringbear

Another slow hand clap for leave voters. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48516196/trump-nhs-on-the-table-in-us-uk-trade-deal


----------



## Elles

Snoringbear said:


> Another slow hand clap for leave voters. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48516196/trump-nhs-on-the-table-in-us-uk-trade-deal


Do you think Labour, Lib Dems, or Greens would farm out the nhs to the USA? If nhs contracts are opened up to the free market, it will be the government of the day doing it, not brexit. We shouldn't be relying on the Eu to control our own government, that's down to the voters.


----------



## Snoringbear

Have a look at TTIP and the EU's response. That will answer all you questions and how the Brexit vote will enable a privatised American health care system.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Do you think Labour, Lib Dems, or Greens would farm out the nhs to the USA? If nhs contracts are opened up to the free market, it will be the government of the day doing it, not brexit. We shouldn't be relying on the Eu to control our own government, that's down to the voters.


But Brexit is more likely to lead to the selling off of the NHS as it's one of the very few things (aside from easier immigration to the UK) other countries really want to get their mitts on as part of offering us a deal. It's not like we have much else to bargain with, after all.


----------



## Snoringbear

There is some sweet irony and karma regarding the loss of the NHS and adopting an American health care system. The elderly who are most dependent on the NHS provided the most significant votes for Brexit and the majority of them were happy to see family members lose jobs to get it. Downside for them is that the younger generation are paying for their healthcare and pensions, but they seemed keen to destroy their jobs and run out immigrants also contributing out of the country. Darwin Awards all round. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...zPVLPZbngolv0O5IFbn9E9KyB5WGCh5U4pafv0kIP1Egs


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Do you think Labour, Lib Dems, or Greens would farm out the nhs to the USA? If nhs contracts are opened up to the free market, it will be the government of the day doing it, not brexit. We shouldn't be relying on the Eu to control our own government, that's down to the voters.


But in order for Brexit to be 'successful', the UK will be relying on that great deal with America that would otherwise not be needed.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Hmm, I might be misreading things, but this:
> 
> actually might make sense if implemented properly. Buy To Let is making a lot of housing unaffordable for regular families looking to buy their own home (thus keeping them locked in the rental trap), so anything that might reverse that trend could be good.
> 
> Keeping the single person discount would be nice (I benefit from that), but I can see why readers of the Torygraph might be more annoyed than most annoyed - chances are their readership would be more affected than most


Rents would just go up if landlords had to pick up the cost.


----------



## Elles

I’m just ignoring you all. We aren’t selling off the nhs, it’s ridiculous.


----------



## Jonescat

But we probably are going to buy our drugs for the NHS from American pharma once freed from European regulation.


----------



## Snoringbear

Elles said:


> I'm just ignoring you all. We aren't selling off the nhs, it's ridiculous.


Yes, it's far better to stick your head in the sand.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I'm just ignoring you all. We aren't selling off the nhs, it's ridiculous.


I can clearly see why Arnie83 left this thread (and this forum too quite likely).


----------



## cheekyscrip

So Trump will have his phenomenal deal once BoJo or Gove goes for hard Brexit and we will have to sell whatever ( NHS!!!) Trump wants to buy.

Bravo Brexit!!!
( Project Fear obviously) :Muted:Muted:Muted


----------



## Calvine

I don't know why @Snoringbear doesn't simply start another thread which is just for remainers, that way he would not have to associate or communicate with any leavers whom he clearly despises, and to whom he thinks he is quite superior.



Snoringbear said:


> An interesting piece of research regarding Brexit voting habits. Highlight for me from the abstract is this " We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction."





Snoringbear said:


> Another slow hand clap for leave voters.
> 
> 
> 
> Snoringbear said:
> 
> 
> 
> Darwin Awards all round.
Click to expand...


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I can clearly see why Arnie83 left this thread (and this forum too quite likely).


 Indeed. I miss him , he always is polite and honest , though we can rely on Jesthar too 
Putting a rude and obnoxious person on ignore is hardly burying your head in the sand. Only an idiot would think that.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Indeed. I miss him , he always is polite and honest , though we can rely on Jesthar too
> Putting a rude and obnoxious person on ignore is hardly burying your head in the sand. Only an idiot would think that.


He could get his point over clearly without trying to belittle anyone.


----------



## Snoringbear

Just to clarify, I don't think I'm superior. I know I'm superior.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> But Brexit is more likely to lead to the selling off of the NHS as it's one of the very few things (aside from easier immigration to the UK) other countries really want to get their mitts on as part of offering us a deal. It's not like we have much else to bargain with, after all.


Wasn't the NHS vunerable under TTIP or was it excluded when the deal was made?


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Just to clarify, I don't think I'm superior. I know I'm superior.


See, I knew you were a Nazi !


----------



## Snoringbear

Oh dear. Time to invoke Godwin's Law.


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Oh dear. Time to invoke Godwin's Law.


Seeing how many times KK has mentioned Hitler and Nazi in the last few year , you're a tad late


----------



## Snoringbear

Touche!


----------



## Elles

Leaving the Eu doesn’t mean that the U.K. has to end up with an American style, insurance based health service. The Eu has nothing to do with it. We weren’t in the Eu when the NHS was started. If Boris Johnson becomes pm and sells the nhs to America it’s our own fault. All of us. Where are the marches, placards and superglue? Where are the strikes, the votes. It’s like no one thinks we can manage our own affairs and government, despite that we haven’t brexited yet because of Parliament. Is parliament going to allow a minority government to cancel the national health service? To me it’s crazy talk and I don’t know where you’re getting it from. 

I’m sorry Arnie has left too.


----------



## Calvine

_Oh come on, you have to admit that this is probably the most knobbish comment on this entire forum, in its entire history..._

@Snoringbear: I wonder if you remember this? ^^^^^^It was posted by a member and is a comment in reply to one of your previous posts on this thread: nothing changes, it seems.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Seeing how many times KK has mentioned Hitler and Nazi in the last few year


Bad girl, Kim, you forgot ''fascist''. Might as well get them all in there.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Bad girl, Kim, you forgot ''fascist''. Might as well get them all in there.


 :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sadly regardless of making fun of SB comments Brexit outs NHS in real danger.
So much for 350 mln weekly for NHS ... 

So if you voted for Brexit hoping it will provide for better care under NHS and better health care for “the people “ then you were deluded.

How would anyone think that the likes of JRM, BoJo and Farage ever cared about “ the people” ? 
They want Brexit to pay lower taxes and make more money though already mega rich.

Which was obvious.

But that Labour with their leader Corbyn allowed it to happen???

Corbyn sabotaged Remain, forced MPs to vote for Article 50, thinking nothing about @ the people “ ... just hoping to win GE. Which he lost.

Total shame. Populism is not a new word. Ancient Greeks created it ... demagoguery is also from Ancient Greeks...
As is democracy and its perils.


When I see where it all is going May Deal starts looking more and more appealing.

How ANYONE can think the likes of JRM, BoJo or Farage have anyone’s interest at heart but their own?

They are happy to sacrifice you all wholesale for their own career and profit.
They don’t care about Britain or British people.

They have enough money to live anywhere nice , in Britain or elsewhere.
They have private healthcare and private education.

They are most happy not to sponsor yours.

Rich will get richer, poor will get poorer and all that with a bit of help from Corbyn, Unite and so on.

Corbyn who makes a point of not attending state dinner with Trump, but seeking to meet him on the quiet.

But going on anti Trump march... one only wonders if because Trump refused to meet him.

I never thought I would agree with the Orange Wonder but his opinion of Corbyn is spot on.


----------



## Elles

So we vote them out. That’s what we have a vote for. If we sit on our jacksie and let it happen, if indeed that is their intention, we deserve everything we get.

And it’s goodnight from me.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Leaving the Eu doesn't mean that the U.K. has to end up with an American style, insurance based health service. The Eu has nothing to do with it. We weren't in the Eu when the NHS was started. If Boris Johnson becomes pm and sells the nhs to America it's our own fault. All of us. Where are the marches, placards and superglue? Where are the strikes, the votes. It's like no one thinks we can manage our own affairs and government, despite that we haven't brexited yet because of Parliament. Is parliament going to allow a minority government to cancel the national health service? To me it's crazy talk and I don't know where you're getting it from.
> 
> I'm sorry Arnie has left too.


It does because we will be desperate for trade deals and we have no bargaining power. Experts & remoaners tired to warn hard brexiteers but to no avial. When the NHS is gifted to the USA dont try to pin the blame elsewhere. Own it. Because to those looking objectively the alarm bells have ringing off the wall from the start.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted- wrong thread.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So we vote them out. That's what we have a vote for. If we sit on our jacksie and let it happen, if indeed that is their intention, we deserve everything we get.
> 
> And it's goodnight from me.


'We' don't all get what we deserve. Plenty of people would NEVER vote for a tory because they know their ideology is the antithesis of our NHS. And plenty of people prefer to be guided by expertees, evidence & facts rather than believing they know best. It was obviously a choice between our NHS & brexit. We could never have both. We were warned, some of us heeded that warning ....


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/06/04/trump-rows-back-on-nhs-trade-deal-comments/

*Trump rows back on NHS trade deal comments*

It was even suggested by a commentator on CNN the POTUS doesn't know what the NHS is which by some of his previous statements on other subjects is quite possible!


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Wasn't the NHS vunerable under TTIP or was it excluded when the deal was made?


The EU rejected TTIP because the EU would not agree to US corporations suing governments for loss of profits (the Tory governments still wanted to go ahead!) , and no our NHS was not vulnerable under TTIP because the EU made specific protections for our NHS & public services. Its on the table now though, thanks to brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/06/04/trump-rows-back-on-nhs-trade-deal-comments/
> 
> *Trump rows back on NHS trade deal comments*
> 
> It was even suggested by a commentator on CNN the POTUS doesn't know what the NHS is which by some of his previous statements on other subjects is quite possible!


Of course he does He can't risk no deal brexit slipping through his fingers, hes clearly realised (or been warned) how much the UK public value their NHS. Only a fool would trust Trumps back peddling.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> What do people think of Rory Stewart for example?


Same neoliberal ideology as the rest of em. Knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.










Certainly understands WTO rules & the terrible implications of no deal mind


----------



## KittenKong

We tried to warn you.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'm just ignoring you all. We aren't selling off the nhs, it's ridiculous.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05




----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/06/04/trump-rows-back-on-nhs-trade-deal-comments/
> 
> *Trump rows back on NHS trade deal comments*
> 
> It was even suggested by a commentator on CNN the POTUS doesn't know what the NHS is which by some of his previous statements on other subjects is quite possible!


It could be that US firms are allowed to tender for contracts, like cleaning, social care, or building, but would they bother. Round here one of the good employers is an American owned company. The pay is higher than most of the British companies, I think they pay the same as they pay in London. I worked in their accounts department. It was a good job.

I don't think it matters who is allowed to go for contracts, but rather what the contracts are and whether there should be any. Should parts of the nhs be run by private companies? I don't think it matters whether they are British, American, Chinese or German personally. Private firms are all in it for the money and run and owned by humans. Their nationality is irrelevant imo.

I don't believe for one minute that leaving the Eu will suddenly do away with NI, make us all buy private insurance and end up with no NHS and health care only available to those who can afford it. This country set up the NHS, it wasn't the Eu and no government, or temporary prime minister is going to be allowed to end it, even if they wanted to.

As for drugs, where do people think we get them now? We're already being ripped off and have been for years.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-justice-now-stop-aids-johnson-a8011716.html


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> It could be that US firms are allowed to tender for contracts, like cleaning, social care, or building, but would they bother. Round here one of the good employers is an American owned company. The pay is higher than most of the British companies, I think they pay the same as they pay in London. I worked in their accounts department. It was a good job.
> 
> I don't think it matters who is allowed to go for contracts, but rather what the contracts are and whether there should be any. Should parts of the nhs be run by private companies? I don't think it matters whether they are British, American, Chinese or German personally. Private firms are all in it for the money and run and owned by humans. Their nationality is irrelevant imo.
> 
> I don't believe for one minute that leaving the Eu will suddenly do away with NI, make us all buy private insurance and end up with no NHS and health care only available to those who can afford it. This country set up the NHS, it wasn't the Eu and no government, or temporary prime minister is going to be allowed to end it, even if they wanted to.
> 
> As for drugs, where do people think we get them now? We're already being ripped off and have been for years.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-justice-now-stop-aids-johnson-a8011716.html


My father's company regularly quoted for NHS contracts as far back as the 50's and continued to do so after it was sold to an American Company in the late 60's ....... so what's new!


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> It could be that US firms are allowed to tender for contracts, like cleaning, social care, or building, but would they bother. Round here one of the good employers is an American owned company. The pay is higher than most of the British companies, I think they pay the same as they pay in London. I worked in their accounts department. It was a good job.
> 
> I don't think it matters who is allowed to go for contracts, but rather what the contracts are and whether there should be any. Should parts of the nhs be run by private companies? I don't think it matters whether they are British, American, Chinese or German personally. Private firms are all in it for the money and run and owned by humans. Their nationality is irrelevant imo.
> 
> I don't believe for one minute that leaving the Eu will suddenly do away with NI, make us all buy private insurance and end up with no NHS and health care only available to those who can afford it. This country set up the NHS, it wasn't the Eu and no government, or temporary prime minister is going to be allowed to end it, even if they wanted to.
> 
> As for drugs, where do people think we get them now? We're already being ripped off and have been for years.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-justice-now-stop-aids-johnson-a8011716.html


Why don't people just listen to the experts who are fully informed about the threats to our nhs? Hard brexiteers, like climate change deniers, are impervious to facts, expertees, logic or reason. Its should now be crystal clear to anyone looking objectively what we stand to lose from brexit. Sadly, it clearly isnt. Reality will only hit home when its too late for those who refuse to look critically.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


>


I watched it and the caller seemed quite rude and talking over Farage. Either way the caller didn't get an answer on the £350million NHS thing which is disappointing but the Turkey situation was explained properly. Doesn't really burn Farage down in flames


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I watched it and the caller seemed quite rude and talking over Farage. Either way the caller didn't get an answer on the £350million NHS thing which is disappointing but the Turkey situation was explained properly. Doesn't really burn Farage down in flames


The caller was trying to explain he now realises he was duped into voting leave by the lies told by the leave campaign. Now he is better informed he wants a peoples vote. Did you vote knowing our NHS would be flogged off to US corporations?

Farage didnt explain the Turkey situation properly Farage knew full well there was NEVER a threat of Turkey joining the EU, they would never have met the criteria to join. Like Trump and the rest of the extreme right, Farage plays to the gullible by scaremongering.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The caller was trying to explain he now realises he was duped into voting leave by the lies told by the leave campaign. Now he is better informed he wants a peoples vote. Did you vote knowing our NHS would be flogged off to US corporations?
> 
> Farage didnt explain the Turkey situation properly Farage knew full well there was NEVER a threat of Turkey joining the EU, they would never have met the criteria to join. Like Trump and the rest of the extreme right, Farage plays to the gullible by scaremongering.


I didn't vote for one specific reason, how do you know that we will be flogging the NHS to America anyway? Yes everyone is talking about it but that doesn't mean it will happen.

Saying Farage plays to the gullible by scaremongering is hilarious when both sides of the argument do exactly the same thing.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I didn't vote for one specific reason, how do you know that we will be flogging the NHS to America anyway? Yes everyone is talking about it but that doesn't mean it will happen.
> 
> Saying Farage plays to the gullible by scaremongering is hilarious when both sides of the argument do exactly the same thing.


If we leave without a deal we are going to be desperate for trade. Alone, we have absolutely no bargaining power.

Anyone who believed Turkey would be alllowed to join the EU was gullible. Farage & co deliberately fooled people to gain votes.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

_A personal view here. Please excuse the length._

D-Day, and we commemorate a significant turning of the tide in WWII and because it's in this thread you already know where this post is going.

Men (and women) fought to stop the Nazis, to keep their families safe, and to avert a terrible future that their failure would allow.

Most of 'war' is sitting around doing not much. But some of it is hell on earth, as typified by the D-Day arrival of thousands of men, mostly much younger than most of us scribbling posts here, who then died in the water, or on the sands of the beaches, or trying to reach the enemy gun positions so that those following them would survive and secure a bridgehead.

To a man, the survivors of D-Day and the war would vow that it should never be allowed to happen again. And today is another one of many occasions where some of those men and all of their descendants reaffirm their commitment never to forget and never to repeat.

Post-war institutions - NATO and the ECSC among them - were created in large part to prevent the recurrence of that hell on earth; as mentioned by the Queen yesterday, to some leaders who seem to have forgotten.

Yet while we remember in sadness, in respect for the bravery, in thanks for the sacrifice, in humility and wonder at their terrifying but unquestioning performance of suicidal duty; there are some who look back and see, predominantly, glory. 'We' were at our best then. D-Day epitomised the British spirit. It remains the pinnacle of our national pride. And now we hear people I won't name individually, but whose words distortedly link No Deal to that Glorious Past by invoking the spirit of Dunkirk, of the war, of D-Day itself.

They seem to disconnect their understandable pride from the fact that hundreds of thousands died so that future generations would not go through what they were forced by their sense of duty and of rightness, to endure.

I can only imagine the response of some were it to be suggested to them that their clamour for a return to individual 'sovereign' national states, entirely separate from each other, with the economic and political bonds of the ECSC and its successors severed, not only increases the risk of a repetition at some future time, but massively disrespects the actions and memories of those who fought on the D-Day beaches, and especially of those who never came back.

But listening to the nationalistic bs that permeates so much of the Brexit debate every time I turn the TV on, that is exactly what I think is happening.

And not for the first time in the many posts on this subject, that is why, for all its manifest faults, its obvious targets for reform, I think that the existence of the EU should be protected, and indeed cherished.

(I will not be responding to critiques of the above.)


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Yes everyone is talking about it but that doesn't mean it will happen


Indeed, maybe the next government (whoever they may be) will will work out a ''fix'' for the NHS; but then what will many people on this PF thread have to think and bleat about? (Those of you who know I have you on ignore _need not respond_.)


----------



## AlexPed2393

Some good news with some new jobs being created.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-48533470


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> Some good news with some new jobs being created.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-48533470


You'll probably argue Brexit related job losses have nothing to do with Brexit.

Then, I'll argue the above has nothing to do with Brexit either.

The only Brexit related 'advantage' to creating jobs is when a post Brexit permanent Irish Wall is required to isolate the North and South of the country.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> You'll probably argue Brexit related job losses have nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> Then, I'll argue the above has nothing to do with Brexit either.
> 
> The only Brexit related 'advantage' to creating jobs is when a post Brexit permanent Irish Wall is required to isolate the North and South of the country.


I didn't say that though, I just wanted to put something positive on a negative thread


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> I didn't say that though, I just wanted to put something positive on a negative thread


That was what I thought, just to detract from the doom and gloom. We can all take our heads out of the gas oven for a short while at least (maybe just until the Peterborough results come thro').


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Then, I'll argue the above has nothing to do with Brexit either.


I rather think it's to do with the fact that every time you turn on the TV there's one of their commercials airing.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> Indeed, maybe the next government (whoever they may be) will will work out a ''fix'' for the NHS; but then what will many people on this PF thread have to think and bleat about? (Those of you who know I have you on ignore _need not respond_.)


Brexit will be the end of NHS one way or another, the entire medical profession could not be clearer. The evidence is there for all to see - sadly those of us looking cant see it for those who choose wilful blindness.

I'll just leave you with this.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> _A personal view here. Please excuse the length._
> 
> D-Day, and we commemorate a significant turning of the tide in WWII and because it's in this thread you already know where this post is going.
> 
> Men (and women) fought to stop the Nazis, to keep their families safe, and to avert a terrible future that their failure would allow.
> 
> Most of 'war' is sitting around doing not much. But some of it is hell on earth, as typified by the D-Day arrival of thousands of men, mostly much younger than most of us scribbling posts here, who then died in the water, or on the sands of the beaches, or trying to reach the enemy gun positions so that those following them would survive and secure a bridgehead.
> 
> To a man, the survivors of D-Day and the war would vow that it should never be allowed to happen again. And today is another one of many occasions where some of those men and all of their descendants reaffirm their commitment never to forget and never to repeat.
> 
> Post-war institutions - NATO and the ECSC among them - were created in large part to prevent the recurrence of that hell on earth; as mentioned by the Queen yesterday, to some leaders who seem to have forgotten.
> 
> Yet while we remember in sadness, in respect for the bravery, in thanks for the sacrifice, in humility and wonder at their terrifying but unquestioning performance of suicidal duty; there are some who look back and see, predominantly, glory. 'We' were at our best then. D-Day epitomised the British spirit. It remains the pinnacle of our national pride. And now we hear people I won't name individually, but whose words distortedly link No Deal to that Glorious Past by invoking the spirit of Dunkirk, of the war, of D-Day itself.
> 
> They seem to disconnect their understandable pride from the fact that hundreds of thousands died so that future generations would not go through what they were forced by their sense of duty and of rightness, to endure.
> 
> I can only imagine the response of some were it to be suggested to them that their clamour for a return to individual 'sovereign' national states, entirely separate from each other, with the economic and political bonds of the ECSC and its successors severed, not only increases the risk of a repetition at some future time, but massively disrespects the actions and memories of those who fought on the D-Day beaches, and especially of those who never came back.
> 
> But listening to the nationalistic bs that permeates so much of the Brexit debate every time I turn the TV on, that is exactly what I think is happening.
> 
> And not for the first time in the many posts on this subject, that is why, for all its manifest faults, its obvious targets for reform, I think that the existence of the EU should be protected, and indeed cherished.
> 
> (I will not be responding to critiques of the above.)


Thats a great post Arnie x Brought to mind this video I saw tweeted by Alex Andreou of this war veteran at the D-Day anniversary. Alex makes the interesting point about the over 85's voting overwhelmingly to remain. They remember.




























__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136296235013431298
...........................


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I rather think it's to do with the fact that every time you turn on the TV there's one of their commercials airing.


I expect Walkers crisps will be opening a new factory soon , their ad is on all the time . Its hilarious. 
Whatever happened to Golden Wonder and Smiths crisps?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I expect Walkers crisps will be opening a new factory soon , their ad is on all the time . Its hilarious.
> Whatever happened to Golden Wonder and Smiths crisps?


Walkers Crisps are sold as Lays outside the UK. Same logo but unique flavours. I wasn't aware they are a US owned company.

Walkers took over Tudor and Smith's Crisps in the '90s. Prior to that, Walkers were not sold in NE England. Tudor was the main brand in these parts. Pickled Onion was my favourite. I liked Smiths Bovril crisps too. Sadly, these were discontinued with the Walkers/Lays takeover.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 406246
> View attachment 406247
> View attachment 406248


You really should check your information before posting. I don't know who's twitter feed you got this from but my friend you've been conned because they left out ...... deliberately one wonders ????????????????? the last sentence which just goes to show how ignorant POTUS is!

https://nypost.com/2019/06/06/trump-brexit-would-be-very-good-for-ireland/

*Trump: Brexit would be 'very good' for Ireland*

*"I think it'll all work out very well for you, with your wall, your border," he said.

Varadkar replied, "I think one thing we want to avoid, of course, is a wall or border between us."







*


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Whatever happened to Golden Wonder and Smiths crisps?


I don't know what happened; but we might as well blame it on Brexit I guess.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> You really should check your information before posting. I don't know who's twitter feed you got this from but my friend you've been conned because they left out ...... deliberately one wonders ????????????????? the last sentence which just goes to show how ignorant POTUS is!
> 
> https://nypost.com/2019/06/06/trump-brexit-would-be-very-good-for-ireland/
> 
> *Trump: Brexit would be 'very good' for Ireland*
> 
> *"I think it'll all work out very well for you, with your wall, your border," he said.*
> 
> *Varadkar replied, "I think one thing we want to avoid, of course, is a wall or border between us."*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


It doesn't change what Trump said though does it, yet I expect a Trump lover such as yourself will jump to his defence at any opportunity.

Get real. Brexit will result in a hard border, unless a deal akin to Norway is agreed that's already been ruled out by the two main political parties in their quest to end our FoM rights. Won't affect you personally though will it.

Still, good to wake up to the unexpected news that the Farage party have failed to win their first seat in Peterborough which I'm sure you'll be disappointed to learn.

Me thinks Trump's pledge to include the NHS as part of that Great British Brexit trade deal with the unelected (in the UK) President could have swung the vote a little.

Only snag is, Corbyn will probably announce the victory as an endorsement of his Brexit plan.

Then, I would have preferred to Tories to have won than Farage I suppose...


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Walkers Crisps are sold as Lays outside the UK. Same logo but unique flavours. I wasn't aware they are a US owned company.
> 
> Walkers took over Tudor and Smith's Crisps in the '90s. Prior to that, Walkers were not sold in NE England. Tudor was the main brand in these parts. Pickled Onion was my favourite. I liked Smiths Bovril crisps too. Sadly, these were discontinued with the Walkers/Lays takeover.
> 
> View attachment 406249


I wonder who decides what the new names will be . . . Lay's? There used to be some yummy bars called ''Dime'' and they changed it to something which sounded totally inedible.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the two main political parties


Not nit-picking for the fun of it, but you have to ask yourself who the two main parties now are (or will shortly be). Just a thought.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Don't arrest Gove!  Trouble is every politician has got something wrong, we should arrest all of them lol.
> 
> Silly thing is they could have put £50m a week on the side of a bus and people would still have thought it was a lot of money that they'd rather the nhs had. It just shows how out of touch they all are that they had to put the highest amount they could wangle. They clearly don't understand the dhs style of advertising. They could have put 'up to' which would have been more accurate.


Gove is one of THE most corrupt, dangerous & dishonest politicians in this country - the harm he has caused is beyond belief, he should be locked up and the key thrown away. . How anyone could defend him I do not know He is completely devoid of integrity, he is completely and utterly morally bankrupt. It amazes me that so many people cannot see through his charade when the evidence stacked against him is staggering. But Corbyn hey?.

Gove is Murdoch's sock puppet.


















@Magyarmum - couldn't help noticing the name on your signature so after a little investigation I found him on twitter. This tweet of his struck me, as I too have noticed the connection & noted it.. (great quote by the way. I suspect what hes saying is we should get our information from trustworthy sources so we can make informed opinions)









..


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I don't know what happened; but we might as well blame it on Brexit I guess.


No need to make stuff up lol


----------



## Jesthar

For those curious about US style healthcare, this is from an American friend discussing the issue:

Doctors and insurance is a ****** joke!!!!! We pay out the ass for insurance and I still have have paid thousands in medical bills. It’s a joke! Have to have insurance.. Can't afford to use it. And people ask why I am soooo against immigrants getting free anything!!! Wro g on soo many levels. Soooooo ****** right now...


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Not nit-picking for the fun of it, but you have to ask yourself who the two main parties now are (or will shortly be). Just a thought.


I meant Labour and Conservative of course.

I reckon, through the usual media spin, the appointment of Boris Johnson as Tory leader/PM will end the Farage surge in popularity.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I wonder who decides what the new names will be . . . Lay's? There used to be some yummy bars called ''Dime'' and they changed it to something which sounded totally inedible.


Wouldn't surprise me if anyone voted leave in the belief we'll see Marathon bars and Opal Fruits again! As we are well aware, the EU forced the name changes didn't they :Hilarious

Interesting to note "Diet Coke", as known in the UK and US is usually known as " Coke Light" across other EU countries like France and Spain.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> You really should check...





KittenKong said:


> It doesn't change what Trump said though does it...


Er, KK, you might want to check that yourself, I believe the point being conveyed by MM was, with tounge firmly in cheek, that the full quote of what Trump said was even MORE stupid and ridiculous than the bits you had posted 

Edit: missed the second quote, wretched phone!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> meant Labour and Conservative of course.


Not Official Monster Raving Loony party and Church of the Militant Elvis Party then?


----------



## KittenKong

The old boy network strike again, not at all surprised really.

A horrible thought this, but Johnson has a horrible habit of winning. He may be seen as the only one who can reverse the rise of Farcism.

Think it's now most likely we will see him as the next Tory leader and PM.

Meanwhile, the PM who has supposed to have quit today hasn't, at least yet.

I wonder if she'll attempt MV4 before she finally goes? That's if she does of course resign.

Nothing would surprise me.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> It doesn't change what Trump said though does it, yet I expect a Trump lover such as yourself will jump to his defence at any opportunity.
> 
> Get real. Brexit will result in a hard border, unless a deal akin to Norway is agreed that's already been ruled out by the two main political parties in their quest to end our FoM rights. Won't affect you personally though will it.
> 
> Still, good to wake up to the unexpected news that the Farage party have failed to win their first seat in Peterborough which I'm sure you'll be disappointed to learn.
> 
> Me thinks Trump's pledge to include the NHS as part of that Great British Brexit trade deal with the unelected (in the UK) President could have swung the vote a little.
> 
> Only snag is, Corbyn will probably announce the victory as an endorsement of his Brexit plan.
> 
> Then, I would have preferred to Tories to have won than Farage I suppose...


Had you read my post correctly you'd have realised that I'm far from being a Trump Lover! In fact to misquote Shakespeare I'd rather bury .Trump than praise him. You obviously didn't twig that POTUS because he's a"thicko" hadn't a clue what NHS meant which why he back tracked so quickly, and neither did he realise there isn't a wall between the two Irelands!

Please present facts to substantiate your claims that ..................................

* I will defend Trump at every opportunity

* I will not be affected by a hard Brexit

* I'm disappointed the Brexit Party didn't win at Peterborough and by implication I support Farage.

Should make interesting reading.

And here's the latest out of the WH ......

https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-...-leaves-internet-in-splits-1544760-2019-06-08
*
Donald Trump says Moon is part of Mars. NASA's epic reply leaves internet in splits*

Notice anything wrong with his statement, or is it just me promoting my so called "Lover Boy"?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I liked Smiths Bovril crisps too.


 Yes, I vaguely remember those, they were yum. I also thought the Marmite-coated cashew nuts were rather lovely, tho' I don't much like Marmite otherwise.


----------



## noushka05

The Telegraph??. If you want the facts, go direct to source. You'll find its actually an excellent, extremely well thought out idea 

https://landforthemany.uk/summary-of-recommendations/



AlexPed2393 said:


> I just think Labour are going down the drain due to Corbyn.
> 
> Has anyone else seen his new plans for council tax? Sounds very dangerous for home owners





kimthecat said:


> No . What are they ?





AlexPed2393 said:


> Quoted from Telegraph
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn has unveiled plans for a new tax raid on middle-class homeowners which will see those with larger family homes and gardens pay significantly more.
> 
> A new report, commissioned by Labour, suggests that council tax should be scrapped and replaced with a "progressive property tax".
> 
> The tax would be payable by property owners, rather than tenants, and would be based on "regularly updated" property values.
> 
> The report says there would be a "progressively higher rate of taxation" for each of top four property bands by value.
> 
> The proposed tax raid is one of a raft of policies being considered by Labour after the publication of a new report entitled "land for the many".
> 
> Labour is also considering plans for "compulsory sale orders" to give public authorities the right to seize land that has been left vacant or derelict and sell it at public auction.
> 
> James Brokenshire, the Housing Secretary, said: "These proposals are extraordinary and deeply damaging in equal measure.
> 
> "This tax bombshell for families would mean family homes with gardens paying far more and higher taxes on pensioners by abolishing the single person discount."
> 
> Jon Trickett, shadow Cabinet Office minister, said people in the UK have "little or no say over the decisions that affect their communities and the places in which they live".
> 
> The report calls for "democratic participation in planning" by introducing a form of jury service for plan making and adopting the Scottish principle of a "Right to Roam" across all uncultivated land and water, excluding gardens and other exceptions.
> 
> Labour has welcomed the report's recommendations and said it will consider them as part its policy development ahead of the next general election.
> 
> Mr Trickett added: "So much of this can be traced back to the broken system of land ownership. "Concentration of land in the hands of a few has led to unwanted developments, unaffordable house prices, financial crises and environmental degradation.
> 
> "Labour is committed to tackling these head on and delivering a fundamental shift in wealth and power from the few to the many.
> 
> "I commend the authors of this report for the work they have done in setting out these new and radical ideas. We will be studying these recommendations in detail."
> 
> The report finds since 1995 the value of land in the UK increased from around £1 trillion to over £5 trillion. By 2016, the cost of land accounted, on average, for 70 per cent of the price of a home. The price of agricultural land has increased by 462 per cent since 1995.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


>


HaHa

The deluded defending the deluded defending the deluded

I'm very happy to go along with the illusion, once we are out of the EU, as I am one of the poor pensioners he's promising to help .......or I will be by then


----------



## noushka05

I suspect a lot of people who want brexit no matter the cost are going to miss our amazing NHS when its gone.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> HaHa
> 
> The deluded defending the deluded defending the deluded
> 
> I'm very happy to go along with the illusion, once we are out of the EU, as I am one of the poor pensioners he's promising to help .......or I will be by then


I'm deluded:Hilarious My aching sides...


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> The Telegraph??. If you want the facts, go direct to source. You'll find its actually an excellent, extremely well thought out idea
> 
> https://landforthemany.uk/summary-of-recommendations/


Was anything I quoted from the article incorrect or put incorrectly from those recommendations? Just because the land for the many has a pretty title and is worded to sound like everyone will get their fair share they won't. Once again it will cause a BIGGER north south divide. Houses are cheaper in the north as is land so those that have moved up here or live here for the cheaper costs will now be struck down by Corbyn's socialist movement. He is abhorrent.

I thought he would be good for politics, to give it a kick up the arse. All he has done is whinge, whinge, whinge and offer no solution for what he is complaining about. He is all about offering up more money and more help for those that struggle which is great BUT he doesn't think about how it is possible, he just charges people earning a half decent living shed loads of tax making them effectively lower income.

I was a labour voter, now I don't know who to vote for and most likely will not vote come general election.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Was anything I quoted from the article incorrect or put incorrectly from those recommendations? Just because the land for the many has a pretty title and is worded to sound like everyone will get their fair share they won't. Once again it will cause a BIGGER north south divide. Houses are cheaper in the north as is land so those that have moved up here or live here for the cheaper costs will now be struck down by Corbyn's socialist movement. He is abhorrent.
> 
> I thought he would be good for politics, to give it a kick up the arse. All he has done is whinge, whinge, whinge and offer no solution for what he is complaining about. He is all about offering up more money and more help for those that struggle which is great BUT he doesn't think about how it is possible, he just charges people earning a half decent living shed loads of tax making them effectively lower income.
> 
> I was a labour voter, now I don't know who to vote for and most likely will not vote come general election.


Yes it was. The Telegraph have put their own spin on it to scaremonger their readers. Have you read the actual report Alex? If you really do care about the North South divide, this will make it fairer for the entire country.

*This land isn't your land: how England privatised its greatest asset*
Over half the land in England is owned by 1 per cent of the population, whether aristocratic families or large rent-seeking companies.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...and-how-england-privatised-its-greatest-asset


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Yes it was. The Telegraph have put their own spin on it to scaremonger their readers. Have you read the actual report Alex? If you really do care about the North South divide, this will make it fairer for the entire country.
> 
> *This land isn't your land: how England privatised its greatest asset*
> Over half the land in England is owned by 1 per cent of the population, whether aristocratic families or large rent-seeking companies.
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...and-how-england-privatised-its-greatest-asset


Yes I did, stop it with the patronising tone, once again. the original writers made it all seem very light and fluffy in that this is the best thing since sliced bread. And no it won't make it fairer, it really does depend what you mean by that? Equality of opportunity is one thing and should be encouraged, but equality of outcome is something else altogether.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Yes it was. The Telegraph have put their own spin on it to scaremonger their readers. Have you read the actual report Alex? If you really do care about the North South divide, this will make it fairer for the entire country.
> 
> *This land isn't your land: how England privatised its greatest asset*
> Over half the land in England is owned by 1 per cent of the population, whether aristocratic families or large rent-seeking companies.
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...and-how-england-privatised-its-greatest-asset


I can go onto your garden as it has a cultural meaning to me and my people

"We propose *an urban and suburban right to roam*, codifying a citizen's right to come onto land for civic and cultural purposes (_Chapter 7_). We also propose *a new Public Realm use class*: definingpublic space that citizens have the right to use for civic and cultural purposes. Allowing Public Realm use would be a planning requirement in all new developments with open space."

So all you're doing is driving up rents, because not all people who rent are multi-billionares who can soak up this extra cost of even more tax.

"we recommend that a Labour government should *replace the council tax with a progressive property tax* (_Chapter 3_). This should be payable by owners, not tenants. The valuation of properties for tax purposes should be updated annually, and *empty homes and second homes should automatically be taxed at a higher rate*. We also recommend a *surcharge for all properties owned by those who are not resident in the UK for tax purposes."*

Although i somewhat agree that proper evidence is needed before an eviction, the 3 years thing is ridiculous, what if I have a huge change in circumstances and need to sell the house I am renting.

"We recommend major reforms of the private rented sector (_Chapter 3_). For example, *tenancies should be open-ended*, and landlords should lose their power to evict a tenant who has not broken the terms of the tenancy agreement for the first three years of the tenancy agreement, and should have to provide grounds for eviction after that point."


----------



## Elles

I’ve read it and I think it’s frightening, expensive and a bureaucratic nightmare. 

It would mean thousands of people having the right to walk across fields with animals in and there’ll end up being glass and litter and poo bags everywhere as evidenced by where the public are allowed to go now. Scotland isn’t so heavily populated. They could increase the number of footpaths, bridleways and rows, but instead they just want to let everyone go where they like and farmers etc to shell out to provide safe access.

Their tax will end up costing all of us more money. It always does. Check how much our property is worth once a year? Who’s going to pay for that? Who on Earth is going to want to be a landlord with all the rules and restrictions?

That’s what Labour are about though. Their schemes are so expensive they end up with more and more people needing support and fewer and fewer people able to give it.

There’s always been jealousy and divide between the have and the have nots, Labour are playing on it. Instead of making us all haves, they want us to all to be have nots. No equality of opportunity there. Nothing to work towards. Everyone the same. I’d not vote for them, I’m not a socialist. I believe in equality of opportunity and all treated equally. That doesn’t mean we can all actually be equal and live equal lives. We should take care of those in need and we should have access to free healthcare, but Labour go too far methinks and way too far under Corbyn.


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> I can go onto your garden as it has a cultural meaning to me and my people
> 
> "We propose *an urban and suburban right to roam*, codifying a citizen's right to come onto land for civic and cultural purposes (_Chapter 7_). We also propose *a new Public Realm use class*: definingpublic space that citizens have the right to use for civic and cultural purposes. Allowing Public Realm use would be a planning requirement in all new developments with open space."
> 
> So all you're doing is driving up rents, because not all people who rent are multi-billionares who can soak up this extra cost of even more tax.
> 
> "we recommend that a Labour government should *replace the council tax with a progressive property tax* (_Chapter 3_). This should be payable by owners, not tenants. The valuation of properties for tax purposes should be updated annually, and *empty homes and second homes should automatically be taxed at a higher rate*. We also recommend a *surcharge for all properties owned by those who are not resident in the UK for tax purposes."*
> 
> Although i somewhat agree that proper evidence is needed before an eviction, the 3 years thing is ridiculous, what if I have a huge change in circumstances and need to sell the house I am renting.
> 
> "We recommend major reforms of the private rented sector (_Chapter 3_). For example, *tenancies should be open-ended*, and landlords should lose their power to evict a tenant who has not broken the terms of the tenancy agreement for the first three years of the tenancy agreement, and should have to provide grounds for eviction after that point."


I'm pretty sure the tories have already (or will be) removing the ability to evict tenants without a good reason - by removing Section 21 evictions. And updating Section 8 so that includes wanting to sell the property as grounds for eviction.

There also seems to be a belief that all landlords are ultra rich with loads of properties which isn't the case.

And increase in landlord costs will of course be passed onto a tenant.


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> I'm pretty sure the tories have already (or will be) removing the ability to evict tenants without a good reason - by removing Section 21 evictions. And updating Section 8 so that includes wanting to sell the property as grounds for eviction.


Thanks for telling me this, I didn't know .

Yeh a lot of people are 'accidental' landlords where circumstances meant it was easier to leave their house to rent than to sell when moving on.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> I can go onto your garden as it has a cultural meaning to me and my people
> 
> "We propose *an urban and suburban right to roam*, codifying a citizen's right to come onto land for civic and cultural purposes (_Chapter 7_). We also propose *a new Public Realm use class*: definingpublic space that citizens have the right to use for civic and cultural purposes. Allowing Public Realm use would be a planning requirement in all new developments with open space."


I think you'd be hard pushed to classify your average garden as 'open space' 



AlexPed2393 said:


> So all you're doing is driving up rents, because not all people who rent are multi-billionares who can soak up this extra cost of even more tax.
> 
> "we recommend that a Labour government should *replace the council tax with a progressive property tax* (_Chapter 3_). This should be payable by owners, not tenants. The valuation of properties for tax purposes should be updated annually, and *empty homes and second homes should automatically be taxed at a higher rate*. We also recommend a *surcharge for all properties owned by those who are not resident in the UK for tax purposes."*


I suppose that depends to some extent if you are differentiating between empty homes, second homes and properties owned to let. I do think it would be hard to stop unscrupulous landlords passing on extra costs, though. Absolutely no problem with the empty homes, second homes and overseas clauses - though there does need to be a grace period for bereavement, I think.



AlexPed2393 said:


> Although i somewhat agree that proper evidence is needed before an eviction, the 3 years thing is ridiculous, what if I have a huge change in circumstances and need to sell the house I am renting.
> 
> "We recommend major reforms of the private rented sector (_Chapter 3_). For example, *tenancies should be open-ended*, and landlords should lose their power to evict a tenant who has not broken the terms of the tenancy agreement for the first three years of the tenancy agreement, and should have to provide grounds for eviction after that point."


You can sell a house with existing tenants (known as selling with 'sitting' tenants, if memory serves...) - in fact, the last time I had cause to know this kind of thing, selling on a buy-to-let with long term, well behaved tenants could command quite a premium.

Anyway, it's a set of suggestions, most of it is unlikely to ever become law. It would be nice if something could be done to stop the gradual closing off of the property market to the average person, though.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> I think you'd be hard pushed to classify your average garden as 'open space'


Just taking it to extremes 
I am not sure of second homes and empty homes being taxed at a higher rate. For what purpose? Maybe if you have more than 2, say the 3rd property. How long between tenants moving out and new ones coming in is a house classed as empty? (I don't know)


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just taking it to extremes
> I am not sure of second homes and empty homes being taxed at a higher rate. For what purpose? Maybe if you have more than 2, say the 3rd property. How long between tenants moving out and new ones coming in is a house classed as empty? (I don't know)


It very much currently depends on your local council's rules.

Where I live. You get 6 months 'empty property' discount before the council tax becomes payable.

However, up north where we are trying to sell my late step-father's house, they want to charge 150% council tax because it's empty. The was a grace period whilst probate was granted (presumably because you can't sell it until then), but then it jumps to 150%. We've told them to do one...


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Just taking it to extremes
> I am not sure of second homes and empty homes being taxed at a higher rate. For what purpose? Maybe if you have more than 2, say the 3rd property. How long between tenants moving out and new ones coming in is a house classed as empty? (I don't know)


There are many areas of the country where people have holiday/weekend homes (particularly rural and popular holiday destinations), and you end up with local people being priced out of the local housing market, leaving them either stuck paying whatever rents are demanded or having to move away.

I'd say somewhere between 6-12 months should usually be adequate for finding tenants or selling a property on, with perhaps a mechanism to apply for an extension uncer certain circumstances. But I'm no expert! No system is going to be perfect, of course - but it would be nice to have one that was at least a bit fairer to those with the least opportunities.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> There are many areas of the country where people have holiday/weekend homes (particularly rural and popular holiday destinations), and you end up with local people being priced out of the local housing market, leaving them either stuck paying whatever rents are demanded or having to move away.
> 
> I'd say somewhere between 6-12 months should usually be adequate for finding tenants or selling a property on, with perhaps a mechanism to apply for an extension uncer certain circumstances. But I'm no expert! No system is going to be perfect, of course - but it would be nice to have one that was at least a bit fairer to those with the least opportunities.


Didn't St Ives try to bring in a rule about houses only being purchased by local folks? Not sure it ever made it into law though.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Didn't St Ives try to bring in a rule about houses only being purchased by local folks? Not sure it ever made it into law though.


I read about a ban on second homes somewhere (thought it was Cornwall) some time ago.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 406658


I think we agree on disliking someone KK


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Gove somehow maintaining unnaturally high level of confidence*
10th June 2019









*MICHAEL Gove remains manically convinced nothing can stop him becoming Tory leader though nobody knows where he is getting his confidence from. *

The environment secretary is resolute he can win and is giving frequent impromptu improvised motivational speeches to his campaign team.

An insider said: "It's incredible. Honestly, if you could bag up Michael's self-belief and sell it, you could name your own price.

"Sometimes he flags a little but then he goes to the bathroom, I think to talk to himself in front of the mirror, and he comes out absolutely ebullient.

"He works all hours - he's always last to bed - and even goes out at 4am for meetings. God knows who with.

"Sunday morning I woke up to him, on the roof, screaming 'I'm the king of the ****ing world!' to the silent Chelsea streets. He's just so inspiring."

The insider added: "And he's really hands-on. Won't let anyone else touch the campaign finances."


----------



## Elles

I’d vote for him. At least he speaks from experience.

He’s not going to be PM though, the media prefers other candidates. When Boris leads the conservatives, that will be the end of my voting. There’s no one in the middle ground now.

What’s the point in buying your own home? You only have to sell it again and give the money to the government to pay for the care you’ve paid for in NI for years. It’s not like it gives your kids, or grandkids a boost. They start from square one too. You’re better off buying abroad and renting.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> I'd vote for him. At least he speaks from experience.
> 
> He's not going to be PM though, the media prefers other candidates. When Boris leads the conservatives, that will be the end of my voting. There's no one in the middle ground now.
> 
> What's the point in buying your own home? You only have to sell it again and give the money to the government to pay for the care you've paid for in NI for years. It's not like it gives your kids, or grandkids a boost. They start from square one too. You're better off buying abroad and renting.


Don't say that I bought my first house 2 years ago rowning.

(I do agree though)


----------



## Snoringbear

Interesting to see Brexiter poster boy pledging to cut taxes on the richest. https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...son/news/104445/boris-johnson-vows-income-tax


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> Interesting to see Brexiter poster boy pledging to cut taxes on the richest. https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...son/news/104445/boris-johnson-vows-income-tax


People earning £50k to £80k are hardly 'the richest'...


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I'd vote for him. At least he speaks from experience.
> 
> He's not going to be PM though, the media prefers other candidates. When Boris leads the conservatives, that will be the end of my voting. There's no one in the middle ground now..


I wouldn't vote for either Boris or Gove. Rory Stewart is my choice and I'm pleased to see he's doing so well if this article is to be believed!

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...4437/rory-stewart-and-boris-johnson-joint-top

*Rory Stewart and Boris Johnson joint top of poll on who would make best next Prime Minister*

_retreats to bunker and waits for the flack!_


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> People earning £50k to £80k are hardly 'the richest'...


Trouble is, it will add to the income of everyone earning over £50,000 and give nothing to those on lower incomes


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> People earning £50k to £80k are hardly 'the richest'...


No, they are not of course, but is perfectly timed for the announcement of the removal of free TV Licenses for many over 75.

Just like the way they announced tax cuts for the wealthy in the past then increase VAT, soon back to Purchase Tax no doubt.....


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> I wouldn't vote for either Boris or Gove. Rory Stewart is my choice and I'm pleased to see he's doing so well if this article is to be believed!
> 
> https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...4437/rory-stewart-and-boris-johnson-joint-top
> 
> *Rory Stewart and Boris Johnson joint top of poll on who would make best next Prime Minister*
> 
> _retreats to bunker and waits for the flack!_


He (Rory Stewart) debated on human rights quite well, when votes for prisoners was in the news. It held my attention long enough that I watched the whole thing. Last night on tv he made me cringe though. The manspreading looked like it would split his pants any minute. I wouldn't want to sit next to him on a train. For some reason I can't quote fathom yet, he reminds me of Stan Stanman from Monkey Island.

ETA imo it would be better if it was someone like Boris. Chances are whoever it is will be destroyed politically and psychologically by brexit and the next GE. They could need to be on another planet and able to ride roughshod over everyone else without a care in the world in order to survive it. There's a possibility they'll do a good job and come out unscathed, but it's pretty slim.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Trouble is, it will add to the income of everyone earning over £50,000 and give nothing to those on lower incomes


People running small businesses might benefit and be able to expand and offer employment.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> People running small businesses might benefit and be able to expand and offer employment.


I agree, but why does it also have to benefit the very rich?
If it was limited to those earning under 100k or even 150k I'd be all for it because it encourages people. All it does for those earning more is to let them buy more trivia. Now if it benefited all those up to 100k it would be even better


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> I agree, but why does it also have to benefit the very rich?
> If it was limited to those earning under 100k or even 150k I'd be all for it because it encourages people. All it does for those earning more is to let them buy more trivia. Now if it benefited all those up to 100k it would be even better


Not sure what you mean. You want people earning over 100k to start paying the 40p in a pound at 50k, but those earning up to 100k to pay standard rate tax? 50k isn't a huge amount these days.

All he's talking of doing is increasing the threshold. At the moment you start paying 40p in the pound at anything over 50k, he's talking of making it over 80k, so the really rich will only pay a little less tax on what they earn between 50k and 80k. I can't see how they can do it and not affect the really rich.

The trivia they buy is made and sold by the less wealthy, so the more they buy, the more vat they pay and the more the less wealthy make from them. If they do buy something ofc and not just leave it in the bank.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I wouldn't want to sit next to him on a train.


Or opposite, eh? It infuriates me that you squeeze your small frame next to some guy with his legs wide open and he refuses to close them even one inch so you are balanced on the edge of your seat until another space becomes vacant and you grab it. I think it is a very good reason not to have him as leader of anything really.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Not sure what you mean. You want people earning over 100k to start paying the 40p in a pound at 50k, but those earning up to 100k to pay standard rate tax? 50k isn't a huge amount these days.
> 
> All he's talking of doing is increasing the threshold. At the moment you start paying 40p in the pound at anything over 50k, he's talking of making it over 80k, so the really rich will only pay a little less tax on what they earn between 50k and 80k. I can't see how they can do it and not affect the really rich.
> 
> The trivia they buy is made and sold by the less wealthy, so the more they buy, the more vat they pay and the more the less wealthy make from them. If they do buy something ofc and not just leave it in the bank.


But that "little less" tax for the wealthy would make a huge difference if it was give at the other end of the tax scale. The wealthy gain whatever they do with thresholds.......that needs to change


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the removal of free TV Licenses for many over 75.


Not heard about this. When you say ''many over 75'' do you mean it's going to be means-tested (or just that there are many people who are 75 and over?).


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Not heard about this. When you say ''many over 75'' do you mean it's going to be means-tested (or just that there are many people who are 75 and over?).


It's mean tested but I don't think you have to have much to have to pay, a full state pension would exclude you I think

Edit to add. anyone not on pension credit so with weekly income of over £167.25 (for single people) or £255.25 (for couples) will have to pay

New State Pension is £168.60 per week.

Ironic, as the TV license will then take them below the level for claiming pension credit


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Not heard about this. When you say ''many over 75'' do you mean it's going to be means-tested (or just that there are many people who are 75 and over?).


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48583487

Not often would I agree with the Daily Mail of all papers, but they're right for once.

It was Tory policy to maintain the blanket free TV Licences, as introduced by the last Labour government. To deflect blame on themselves they left the BBC to take responsibility for this. In their link they claim this has the support of, wait for it, 52% of respondents. Guess this must go to towards covering Farage's frequent appearance fees....


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> But that "little less" tax for the wealthy would make a huge difference if it was give at the other end of the tax scale. The wealthy gain whatever they do with thresholds.......that needs to change


Eventually the thresholds have to change. 50k can't be where you start to pay a higher rate tax forever. The capitalist conservatives are unlikely to increase top rates and corporation tax, increase thresholds for the lowest earners and reduce tax rates for the lowest earners. That's more your socialist labour policy of course.

They do that though and more wealthy and successful companies will head across the sea faster than you can say brexit. It's why the gambling companies are leaving Gibraltar. They set up there for the tax breaks and started moving out when the government agreed with Spain to take them away. Spain didn't like what they saw as a Brit tax haven.

Boris and his ilk want to see the whole of the U.K. become closer to tax haven status. Ireland is successful in persuading the multi nationals to set up hq there because of its tax status, though the Eu isn't going to allow it much longer I believe.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

On the subject of the BBC I have no idea why they are going to host conservative leader candidate debates. I hope those that take part will not be paid an appearance fee!


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45888200

I agree with the government not funding free tv licences for people over 75. I do think the BBC can afford it and are just being greedy.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> They do that though and more wealthy and successful companies will head across the sea faster than you can say brexit.


Absolutely, it's a tricky balancing act.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45888200
> 
> I agree with the government not funding free tv licences for people over 75. I do think the BBC can afford it and are just being greedy.


Fair point, but to announce tax cuts for the wealthy and now this attack on our elders!

Then, why should the Government fund the BBC, and why should we for that matter?!


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> On the subject of the BBC I have no idea why they are going to host conservative leader candidate debates. I hope those that take part will not be paid an appearance fee!


Maximum publicity for their party of choice.

They'll probably invite Farage to comment on the debate too. Wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Maximum publicity for their party of choice.
> 
> They'll probably invite Farage to comment on the debate too. Wouldn't surprise me.


With the way Question time is I don't think the BBC is as pro-brexit as you are making out


----------



## Calvine

I know this has nothing to do with Brexit (but the same can be said of so many posts on this thread - and there has just been discussion on TV licence etc) but I wondered just how true this was? Have never been in hospital so I don't know for sure; I imagine it varies from one place to another.


----------



## kimthecat

According to the Guardian ( so it must be true ) its George Osborne's fault regarding TV licences.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...ly-planted-by-george-osborne?CMP=share_btn_tw

Twitterati are very angry that Gary Linker is earning £1.7 m a year and that they have cut appearances of Toby Young who looks like he has been separated at birth from harry hill .


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I don't know why the Tories insist on wasting time on this leadership contest, stop messing about and crown sodding Johnson, that's who the party members want so just get on with it!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Eventually the thresholds have to change. 50k can't be where you start to pay a higher rate tax forever. The capitalist conservatives are unlikely to increase top rates and corporation tax, increase thresholds for the lowest earners and reduce tax rates for the lowest earners. That's more your socialist labour policy of course.
> 
> They do that though and more wealthy and successful companies will head across the sea faster than you can say brexit. It's why the gambling companies are leaving Gibraltar. They set up there for the tax breaks and started moving out when the government agreed with Spain to take them away. Spain didn't like what they saw as a Brit tax haven.
> 
> Boris and his ilk want to see the whole of the U.K. become closer to tax haven status. Ireland is successful in persuading the multi nationals to set up hq there because of its tax status, though the Eu isn't going to allow it much longer I believe.


Tax treaty with Spain is a direct result of Brexit threat. Price to pay for keeping the frontier open in case of No Deal or Deal that not included Gibraltar.

Spain promised to remove Gibraltar from tax haven list, but have not so far , but all " tax haven" conditions are wrote into that treaty so in fact we would have been much better off still on the list.

I understand you are familiar with the treaty?

I am, not by choice, but mandatory seminars as clients are affected and stakeholders too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

3dogs2cats said:


> I don't know why the Tories insist on wasting time on this leadership contest, stop messing about and crown sodding Johnson, that's who the party members want so just get on with it!


That will be grand, Hard Brexit led by Trump's twin...


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Fair point, but to announce tax cuts for the wealthy and now this attack on our elders!
> 
> Then, why should the Government fund the BBC, and why should we for that matter?!


Our elders aka 75 plus were rather in favour of Brexit...
I think it is karma...
Soon they will have to pay for their health care and community care...
But they will have blue passports...no E111 though... wonder how much

is travel insurance for 75plus?

On the plus side it might encourage community spirit where neighbours will chip in to pay the license together?
What kind of punishment will be for illegal watching BBC ?
I hope for prison sentence, so they will have TV for free....plus warm nutritious meals on wheelsand heated accommodations with health care ...

Maybe special prison wings for 75 plus hard core license violators with bingo nights ?

At least their homes will not be repossessed as in case of residential care...


----------



## Snoringbear

MilleD said:


> People earning £50k to £80k are hardly 'the richest'...


It will reduce tax for anybody over that threshold as well.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Our elders aka 75 plus were rather in favour of Brexit...
> I think it is karma...
> Soon they will have to pay for their health care and community care...
> But they will have blue passports...no E111 though... wonder how much
> 
> is travel insurance for 75plus?
> 
> On the plus side it might encourage community spirit where neighbours will chip in to pay the license together?
> What kind of punishment will be for illegal watching BBC ?
> I hope for prison sentence, so they will have TV for free....plus warm nutritious meals on wheelsand heated accommodations with health care ...
> 
> Maybe special prison wings for 75 plus hard core license violators with bingo nights ?
> 
> At least their homes will not be repossessed as in case of residential care...


The 75 plus who fought in the Second World War? Who voted for brexit because they don't care about the nhs or the young, because they'll be dead next week? But otoh voted for brexit, because of money promised for the same nhs that they don't care about.

Does it not occur to all the haters that maybe these people voted for brexit because they were led to believe that it would mean a better future, a stronger nhs, cleaner air, a longer life, a better future for their children and children's children?

It wasn't going very well before the referendum was it. 

The Eu and brexit has nothing to do with the tv licence, the bbc were told they'd have to cover it before the referendum. You'll probably find that a lot of the elderly don't claim the money they're entitled to and won't get the licence fee they're entitled to either, because they don't want to be seen as scrounging.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Our elders aka 75 plus were rather in favour of Brexit...
> I think it is karma...
> Soon they will have to pay for their health care and community care...
> But they will have blue passports...no E111 though... wonder how much
> 
> is travel insurance for 75plus?
> 
> On the plus side it might encourage community spirit where neighbours will chip in to pay the license together?
> What kind of punishment will be for illegal watching BBC ?
> I hope for prison sentence, so they will have TV for free....plus warm nutritious meals on wheelsand heated accommodations with health care ...
> 
> Maybe special prison wings for 75 plus hard core license violators with bingo nights ?
> 
> At least their homes will not be repossessed as in case of residential care...


What a thoroughly nasty and ignorant post.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> What kind of punishment will be for illegal watching BBC ?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-get-slap-wrist-new-sentencing-guidelines/

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If you _did_ get a fine after watching TV for ten years without a licence, you can bet your life it would cost you less less than paying £150 a year for ten years. I think I'll give it a go; why not?
I remember years ago the TV licence checkers knocked on my dodgy neighbour's door and the ''Neighbours'' theme tune was blaring full blast from the drawing room. She actually had a special little table with a cover, and when she suspected they were at the door, or on to her, she'd push the little set under there and the cover hid it, but this time she forgot to turn it off.:Hilarious:Hilarious:HilariousThey just warned her. I read that twice as many women as men commit TV licence evasion, but that overall, most crime is committed by men.



cheekyscrip said:


> Our elders aka 75 plus were rather in favour of Brexit...





cheekyscrip said:


> I think it is karma...


I don't think the TV licence business or karma, for that matter, have anything to do with Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> What a thoroughly nasty and ignorant post.


It was tongue in cheek!!! Sarcastic if you will.

It is honestly appalling to take away the TV channels that people actually watch, this is what I wanted to point- if you a prisoner you have warm food, heating, TV etc... but not if you are elderly!!!! Health care!!!
Seems better to be a murderer than a pensioner?


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> If you _did_ get a fine after watching TV for ten years without a licence, you can bet your life it would cost you less less than paying £150 a year for ten years. I think I'll give it a go; why not?


You can just imagine the headlines can't you? 
90 year old granny fined for no TV license...............Looks good for the BBC doesn't it


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I don't think the TV licence business or karma, for that matter, have anything to do with Brexit.


Arguably their EU referendum going their way has allowed the Government to become more spiteful than it otherwise might have done. They can pick on the elderly and vulnerable as Labour in its present form are no threat to them as they are guaranteed to win the next GE whenever that is.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> It was tongue in cheek!!! Sarcastic if you will.
> 
> It is honestly appalling to take away the TV channels that people actually watch, this is what I wanted to point- if you a prisoner you have warm food, heating, TV etc... but not if you are elderly!!!! Health care!!!onceagain
> Seems better to be a murderer than a pensioner?


There was nothing in your post to indicate it was, as you claim, "tongue in cheek".

.As an over 75 year old, quite frankly I found it insulting because as per normal with remainers, us OAP's are being held responsible for Brexit and anything and everything that can be remotely associated with it!

Rather than confining us to prisons as has been suggested, seeing that we seem to be such useless and disruptive members of society perhaps compulsory euthanisation of all over 70 year's old might be the solution. (I seem to remember a little man with a little moustache had a similar idea). It would save a lot of money that is at present spent on the NHS and community care of the elderly.

BUT don't forget ......... you'd then have no one to blame for your mistakes apart from yourselves and more importantly, one day you will also be over 70!


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Yes I did, stop it with the patronising tone, once again. the original writers made it all seem very light and fluffy in that this is the best thing since sliced bread. And no it won't make it fairer, it really does depend what you mean by that? Equality of opportunity is one thing and should be encouraged, but equality of outcome is something else altogether.


You're such a snowflake Alex Seriously though, I wasn't meaning to sound patronising. I apologise if I came across that way. Even people on the right who have looked at this objectively have reacted positively.

The tory Times Philip Collins.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-land-tax-can-be-fertile-ground-for-labour-3rkb8kkfj

By fairer it means this will address our gross inequality, it means millennials will have a chance to affordable housing, it means our environment can be better protected.

https://www.countryfile.com/news/wh...ership-and-how-much-is-privately-owned-today/

This letter in response to the proposals by Rev Paul Nicolson is particularly insightful.

_ " As a landowner the Church of England is one of the powerful beneficiaries of this injustice ..."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...are-key-to-ending-inequality?CMP=share_btn_tw_

Wealthy and powerful landowners ought to visit homeless hostels in the London borough of Haringey, where single mothers sleep with their children in single rooms, some for two years or more in "temporary" accommodation with no certainty that they or their children will ever own or rent a secure affordable home of their own (Want to tackle inequality? Our land laws have to change first, 4 June). They should then visit the newly founded Christian church in a warehouse, where a whole floor is used to accommodate single homeless men at night, more and more of whom work during the day.

Power has been abused. Since the big bang in the 1980s, government policy has allowed a medieval grabbing of land to the detriment of the health and wellbeing of low-income tenants. The late professor Peter Ambrose wrote in 2006: "Policy will not be decided on who needs affordable housing most … but on which policy will offend the lowest number of current house owners." As a landowner, the Church of England is among the powerful beneficiaries of that injustice. The archbishop of Canterbury has said: "It's time for a radical look at what enables people to live in communities, to build relationships." In particular, it is time for the fair sharing of all the land in the UK for the common good.
*Rev Paul Nicolson*
_Taxpayers Against Poverty_

This is astonishing dont you think?












Elles said:


> I've read it and I think it's frightening, expensive and a bureaucratic nightmare.
> 
> .


Are you confusing it with no deal brexit perhaps? lol


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Arguably their EU referendum going their way has allowed the Government to become more spiteful than it otherwise might have done. They can pick on the elderly and vulnerable as Labour in its present form are no threat to them as they are guaranteed to win the next GE whenever that is.


 Do you think the Conservatives are guaranteed to win a GE? I don`t think they can be confident of that. Look at the By Election The Brexit Party looked certain to win that, a marginal constituency who voted leave in the referendum, Farage`s party had been virtually given a seat in the commons before voting had even finished. He was there ready to give his victory speech and loses to Labour! 
The only thing I think is certain is Johnson will be PM in a few weeks, his team have been keeping him quiet so he can`t mess up but it doesn't matter what rubbish he comes out with the Tory membership love him and they are the current `Will of The People`


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You're such a snowflake Alex Seriously though, I wasn't meaning to sound patronising. I apologise if I came across that way. Even people on the right who have looked at this objectively have reacted positively.
> 
> The tory Times Philip Collins.
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-land-tax-can-be-fertile-ground-for-labour-3rkb8kkfj
> 
> By fairer it means this will address our gross inequality, it means millennials will have a chance to affordable housing, it means our environment can be better protected.
> 
> https://www.countryfile.com/news/wh...ership-and-how-much-is-privately-owned-today/
> 
> This letter in response to the proposals by Rev Paul Nicolson is particularly insightful.
> 
> _ " As a landowner the Church of England is one of the powerful beneficiaries of this injustice ..."
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...are-key-to-ending-inequality?CMP=share_btn_tw_
> 
> Wealthy and powerful landowners ought to visit homeless hostels in the London borough of Haringey, where single mothers sleep with their children in single rooms, some for two years or more in "temporary" accommodation with no certainty that they or their children will ever own or rent a secure affordable home of their own (Want to tackle inequality? Our land laws have to change first, 4 June). They should then visit the newly founded Christian church in a warehouse, where a whole floor is used to accommodate single homeless men at night, more and more of whom work during the day.
> 
> Power has been abused. Since the big bang in the 1980s, government policy has allowed a medieval grabbing of land to the detriment of the health and wellbeing of low-income tenants. The late professor Peter Ambrose wrote in 2006: "Policy will not be decided on who needs affordable housing most … but on which policy will offend the lowest number of current house owners." As a landowner, the Church of England is among the powerful beneficiaries of that injustice. The archbishop of Canterbury has said: "It's time for a radical look at what enables people to live in communities, to build relationships." In particular, it is time for the fair sharing of all the land in the UK for the common good.
> *Rev Paul Nicolson*
> _Taxpayers Against Poverty_
> 
> This is astonishing dont you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you confusing it with no deal brexit perhaps? lol


Although certain members of the right may agree with it doesn't mean I do. I don't see myself as left or right as I agree and oppose views from both sides, bit of a sticky one really.

I simply don't agree with it after reading it fully, especially the areas I highlighted in my earlier post.

Oh I'm a big softy really


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I'd vote for him. At least he speaks from experience.
> 
> He's not going to be PM though, the media prefers other candidates. When Boris leads the conservatives, that will be the end of my voting. There's no one in the middle ground now.
> 
> What's the point in buying your own home? You only have to sell it again and give the money to the government to pay for the care you've paid for in NI for years. It's not like it gives your kids, or grandkids a boost. They start from square one too. You're better off buying abroad and renting.


Gove is another selfserving pathological liar - another dangerous neocon. Which ever one of this shower of **** gets the job we are totally screwed!












MilleD said:


> People earning £50k to £80k are hardly 'the richest'...


This.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Although certain members of the right may agree with it doesn't mean I do. I don't see myself as left or right as I agree and oppose views from both sides, bit of a sticky one really.
> 
> I simply don't agree with it after reading it fully, especially the areas I highlighted in my earlier post.
> 
> Oh I'm a big softy really


I cant see a better way of redressing our shocking inequity myself. And we know, if we are to address ecological/climate & social injustice we must do just that.

I always suspected you were a softy


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> It was tongue in cheek!!! Sarcastic if you will.


Really ? and how do you think older people here will feel reading that or those with older relatives. Do they deserve your sarcasm .
I really doubt that you saying "it is karma" was tongue in cheek . I guess Remainers think anyone who voted Leave deserves all the bad things that have happened to them since them !
and Remain voters think they're kind , caring and intelligent , :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> There was nothing in your post to indicate it was, as you claim, "tongue in cheek".
> 
> .As an over 75 year old, quite frankly I found it insulting because as per normal with remainers, us OAP's are being held responsible for Brexit and anything and everything that can be remotely associated with it!
> 
> Rather than confining us to prisons as has been suggested, seeing that we seem to be such useless and disruptive members of society perhaps compulsory euthanisation of all over 70 year's old might be the solution. (I seem to remember a little man with a little moustache had a similar idea). It would save a lot of money that is at present spent on the NHS and community care of the elderly.
> 
> BUT don't forget ......... you'd then have no one to blame for your mistakes apart from yourselves and more importantly, one day you will also be over 70!


I read it as tounge very firmly in cheek (with a side order of frustration, given the largely ignored situation Gibraltar is in). English isn't scrippy's first language, after all. My Mum is over 70, and as we've already had sarcastic conversations very much along those lines (and will do again, I don't doubt) I doubt she'd have any issus with it. 

As to OAPs, I do recall reading somewhere over the last week during all the D Day coverage that the age group of those who were actually alive during the war years largely voted Remain.

Personally, I'm holding ANYONE who voted Leave _responsible _for the chaos we currently find ourselves in, but don't confuse that with disliking/hating anyone who voted Leave and still believes in it. Of the ones I talk to, I mainly feel concerned for them, as most seem blissfully unconcerned and think everything will carry on as normal even in the event of a No Deal, just with blue passports. Gonna be a bit of a shock when those rose tinted glasses get stomped on, I suspect, but for now even provable downsides are dismissed as either Project Fear or 'we coped with it before, we'll manage, we believe in Britain' type rhetoric. Whilst I could say I find that disappointing, in reality I'm not really surprised.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> 90 year old granny fined for no TV license.


 Spend too long on this thread and you start to feel like a 90-year-old grannie TBH.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> the TV channels that people actually watch


What? All two of them?:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

@Elles


kimthecat said:


> Really ? and how do you think older people here will feel reading that or those with older relatives. Do they deserve your sarcasm .
> I really doubt that you saying "it is karma" was tongue in cheek . I guess Remainers think anyone who voted Leave deserves all the bad things that have happened to them since them !
> and Remain voters think they're kind , caring and intelligent , :Hilarious


There is nobody kinder on this forum than Cheeky imo. Her comment was tongue in cheek, I find Cheekys wit really funny personally.

An interesting fact about the oldest generation.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019...neration-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I agree, but why does it also have to benefit the very rich?


Because that is who the tories really represent - the very rich. Its simple really.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> This.


I still maintain that earning between £50k and £80k doesn't make you really rich. I don't care how many graphs you show me.

And I realise that it will also benefit those earning over £80k in case someone else wants to state the bleeding obvious, but to the _really rich_ it's a drop in the ocean.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> I still maintain that earning between £50k and £80k doesn't make you really rich. I don't care how many graphs you show me.
> 
> And I realise that it will also benefit those earning over £80k in case someone else wants to state the bleeding obvious, but to the _really rich_ it's a drop in the ocean.


I don't think anyone is trying to say that earning between £50k and £80k makes you 'really rich' these days, but it does make you a good sight richer than most people in the country.

I think the points people are trying to make is that small percentage of people earning that much (or more) generally don't need a tax break as much as the people trying to get by on a more average wage, and that giving tax breaks to the relatively well off with one hand whilst pushing austerity ever harder on the less well off is a bit, well, rich...


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I still maintain that earning between £50k and £80k doesn't make you really rich. I don't care how many graphs you show me.
> 
> And I realise that it will also benefit those earning over £80k in case someone else wants to state the bleeding obvious, but to the _really rich_ it's a drop in the ocean.


I didn't post the graph for that reason. I wouldn't argue those earnings make someone really rich. My eldest almost earns the lower figure & hes never got two ha' pennies to rub together thanks to his mortgage lol I posfed the graph to show the main beneficiaries are the richest 10%.
We desperately need to address our shameful inequality not add to it Mille.










Thank you @Jesthar, thats exactly what I meant.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> There was nothing in your post to indicate it was, as you claim, "tongue in cheek".


Exactly. 
As to Karma , perhaps its Karma that Remainers lost the Referendum, those naughty people, what did they do ? Only joking of course , ha ha ha .


----------



## Calvine

I realise that this from DM, but . . .

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...asts-BBC-axing-free-TV-licences-3-7m-75s.html

Kind gesture.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I realise that this from DM, but . . .
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...asts-BBC-axing-free-TV-licences-3-7m-75s.html
> 
> Kind gesture.


Wow . That's generous . Good for him. 
His Mum and Dad aren't old enough to claim a free one  In case anyone doesn't know , his Dad is Bruce Fogle , a well known vet and author of Dog books.


----------



## kimthecat

Blimey . I think Jo Brand is hilarious but perhaps this isnt a wise thing to say .

https://elotitv.com/jo-brand-jokes-about-throwing-battery-acid-at-unpleasant-politicians/

*Why bother with a milkshake when you could get some battery acid': Nigel Farage accuses comedian Jo Brand of 'inciting violence' after she joked about throwing acid at 'unpleasant' politicians on BBC Radio 4*


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Really ? and how do you think older people here will feel reading that or those with older relatives. Do they deserve your sarcasm .
> I really doubt that you saying "it is karma" was tongue in cheek . I guess Remainers think anyone who voted Leave deserves all the bad things that have happened to them since them !
> and Remain voters think they're kind , caring and intelligent , :Hilarious


I was critical of dear Brexit government the Tories who treat old people worse than they treat prisoners!!! Clear?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> There was nothing in your post to indicate it was, as you claim, "tongue in cheek".
> 
> .As an over 75 year old, quite frankly I found it insulting because as per normal with remainers, us OAP's are being held responsible for Brexit and anything and everything that can be remotely associated with it!
> 
> Rather than confining us to prisons as has been suggested, seeing that we seem to be such useless and disruptive members of society perhaps compulsory euthanisation of all over 70 year's old might be the solution. (I seem to remember a little man with a little moustache had a similar idea). It would save a lot of money that is at present spent on the NHS and community care of the elderly.
> 
> BUT don't forget ......... you'd then have no one to blame for your mistakes apart from yourselves and more importantly, one day you will also be over 70!


As I said before - wanted to show that the government treats old people worse than prisoners and actually old people might be better off in HM prison - how many struggled to pay for heating, to have decent hot meal and TV plus health care when you need - prisoners have all that as their rights, old people often don't!!!
It seems this government would be happy to have only those pensioners who can pay themselves for everything!!!
There.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> Do you think the Conservatives are guaranteed to win a GE? I don`t think they can be confident of that. Look at the By Election The Brexit Party looked certain to win that, a marginal constituency who voted leave in the referendum, Farage`s party had been virtually given a seat in the commons before voting had even finished. He was there ready to give his victory speech and loses to Labour!
> The only thing I think is certain is Johnson will be PM in a few weeks, his team have been keeping him quiet so he can`t mess up but it doesn't matter what rubbish he comes out with the Tory membership love him and they are the current `Will of The People`


Yes, I'm afraid I do. I know how the media work and the influence it has over many people. Boris Johnson will most likely win a media inspired majority. Anyone else could win narrowly, or end up in coalition with Farage. Don't know what would be worse to tell you the truth.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> his Dad is Bruce Fogle , a well known vet and author of Dog books.


Thank you @kimthecat: I knew the name Fogle was familiar for more than one reason. I had sort of associated him with RSPCA at some point, yonks ago, not sure why.


----------



## Dogwood1

Sorry, I know this is a Brexit thread, but many of the underlying dynamics are happening all around the world. Here's how some others are thinking and acting, in case some useful parallels can be gleaned.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris has won the most leadership votes and Andrea Leadsom is out. next round in July.


ETA Next round is next week not July.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Boris has won the most leadership votes and Andrea Leadsom is out. next round in July.


The next ballot is next week I thought? All pointless as Johnson will win so they may as well cut to the chase now.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> The next ballot is next week I thought? All pointless as Johnson will win so they may as well cut to the chase now.


I expect you're right  
Really dont want Boris to be PM nor Corbyn if there's an election.

ETA July 22 is when the next PM is confirmed.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/uk-...up-a-gear-ahead-of-first-round-of-voting.html-

*Boris Johnson wins first round of UK leadership vote*


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> I expect you're right
> Really dont want Boris to be PM nor Corbyn if there's an election.
> 
> ETA July 22 is when the next PM is confirmed.


 There is every possibility that neither Johnson or Corbyn will still be the leader of their parties by the time we have a GE.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Corbyn proved to be a disaster for Labour and by his fence sitting he and Labour will allow the worst Brexit to happen.
Remember all assurances we will not leave without a deal?

There we go...
The privileged few who will benefit from deregulation and lower taxes drag us out...
To Trump style Britain.
Leavers must be happy now?


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Leavers must be happy now?


Was this ''tongue in cheek'' too? Not the impression I'm getting.
No, we are not especially ''happy now'' - but neither are we whipping ourselves or each other. It is the sort of comment we have become used to, so it has little lasting effect.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> Was this ''tongue in cheek'' too? Not the impression I'm getting.
> No, we are not especially ''happy now'' - but neither are we whipping ourselves or each other. It is the sort of comment we have become used to, so it has little lasting effect.


I think if it turns out as predicted aka " Project Fear" maybe whipping yourselves will not help but trying to stop that disaster and admit Brexit simply duped the poor and the middle ground to give their money to the rich?
It is still possible to admit that promises were false and choose to defend Britain from greedy ERG?
So you want to hand Britain to ERG and that **** BoJo just like that?
Not a nice post, but it is not a nice perspective either.

There is nothing nice about Brexit or BoJo, or Farage.
I don't want to hand my country to them.My children are British. UK on behalf of Gibraltar just signed most humiliating and dangerous tax treaty with Spain, as a result one of the biggest employers moved to Malta, 500 jobs lost, in a place of 30 k! We are losing business every day.

No one is safe workwise and I am 50 plus with 3 children to feed. Gibraltar was doing well till now.
We are just collateral damage.

So I have all rights to be angry with those who ruined our future.
That is nasty.

We didn't want it and we are paying the price.

Tories are nasty party and Labour just useless.

Sheer frustration with those who lead/ ruin this country.
Worst scenario since the American War.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> There is every possibility that neither Johnson or Corbyn will still be the leader of their parties by the time we have a GE.


I hope not!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Boris has won the most leadership votes and Andrea Leadsom is out. next round in July.
> 
> ETA Next round is next week not July.


Let's be grateful for small mercies that Leadsom and McVey are out.


----------



## Elles

Boris wants to increase NI to pay for his tax cuts. Whats the point? 

It seems as though labour and the conservatives are having a competition over who can have the worst leader. I’m not entirely sure who the front runner is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Boris wants to increase NI to pay for his tax cuts. Whats the point?
> 
> It seems as though labour and the conservatives are having a competition over who can have the worst leader. I'm not entirely sure who the front runner is.


We are trying to beat USA in that competition...

(You can take as ironic or plain nasty- your pick..)


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> We are trying to beat USA in that competition...
> 
> (You can take as ironic or plain nasty- your pick..)


Or funny lol. I think I'd have to choose Corbyn as the winner, mainly because Trump and Boris are who they are, but I think Corbyn has ruined the Labour Party and he's a sneaky Gollum type, pretending to be something he isn't.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Or funny lol. I think I'd have to choose Corbyn as the winner, mainly because Trump and Boris are who they are, but I think Corbyn has ruined the Labour Party and he's a sneaky Gollum type, pretending to be something he isn't.


Very sadly I must agree... Trump and BoJo are what they are and no mistake.

Corbyn as People's Champion basically destroyed the party that should have protected the people.
He sabotaged Remain. He lost to Strong and Stable .

He gagged all sensible people in Labour and spat his dummy further than anybody.

Labour should have capitalised on disastrous leadership of Nasty Party.

He whipped MPs to vote for Article 50. He never supported PV!
He promised to abolish uni fees... then denied it..., list goes on and on...

BoJo is arrogant opportunistic liar, two faced traitor and buffoon. So is Trump.

I always wondered how some can slag Trump and praise BoJo???

British version of the same....

Still I see Corbyn as just as opportunistic as those twins but pretending that he cares about The People.

Revolting.

All about the power ... if he cared about Labour as much as he cared about his leadership....


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Blimey . I think Jo Brand is hilarious but perhaps this isnt a wise thing to say .


I wonder how she will feel if some unhinged person does?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Let's be grateful for small mercies that Leadsom and McVey are out.


What do you think of Boris's brother , Jo Johnson? He seems to be the opposite of Boris. I would vote for him if he put himself forward . (I like his dad too.  ) perhaps he wouldn't have been selected because he wants a Peoples vote.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I wonder how she will feel if some unhinged person does?


I hope to God no ones does. Having seen the photos of victims on twitter , it really brings it home how awful and damaging it is.


----------



## Elles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631116

Chuka Umunna joins the Lib Dems. 

Ambition? Lib Dems doing better and more chance of becoming leader and PM?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631116
> 
> Chuka Umunna joins the Lib Dems.


I would!
All betrayed by Corbyn and frankly useless Labour should really.
Brexit No Deal will shrink economy by 9% according to BOE....( estimated).
But it will not spread evenly.
ERG and the rich will get richer, poor will stay poor, not much can be taken from them.

Middle class will get to bear the burden, what will shrink the middle pushing lot of lower middle class into poverty.

It will split society into rich in gated estates and poor in slums with not much in between.

The middle middle and lower middle are the core of society, that gives it stability.
When it shrinks and society splits the danger of destabilisation is looming.

But the ruling rich can always redirect the angry mob towards minorities... the obvious ones being immigrants, Muslim, LGTB ...

They will be blamed for overcrowded schools and queues to GP.
Not the Nasty Party that cuts taxes for the rich.

LidDem seems to be the best choice now for people who are middle or lower middle class ( income based roughly)...unless you are in Scotland.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631116
> 
> Chuka Umunna joins the Lib Dems.
> 
> Ambition? Lib Dems doing better and more chance of becoming leader and PM?


 Blimey! He's not hanging about !


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I would!
> All betrayed by Corbyn and frankly useless Labour should really.
> Brexit No Deal will shrink economy by 9% according to BOE....( estimated).
> But it will not spread evenly.
> ERG and the rich will get richer, poor will stay poor, not much can be taken from them.
> 
> Middle class will get to bear the burden, what will shrink the middle pushing lot of lower middle class into poverty.
> 
> It will split society into rich in gated estates and poor in slums with not much in between.
> 
> The middle middle and lower middle are the core of society, that gives it stability.
> When it shrinks and society splits the danger of destabilisation is looming.
> 
> But the ruling rich can always redirect the angry mob towards minorities... the obvious ones being immigrants, Muslim, LGTB ...
> 
> They will be blamed for overcrowded schools and queues to GP.
> Not the Nasty Party that cuts taxes for the rich.
> 
> LidDem seems to be the best choice now for people who are middle or lower middle class ( income based roughly)...unless you are in Scotland.


You what?

Gated estates and slums? Where? The tax cuts for £50-£80k earners will be tax cuts for middle class GPs and some teachers, so they will probably like the idea, but that's Boris who isn't in the ERG.

Chuka had already left the Labour Party and started his own. It didn't do very well, so now he's left that one too and joined the Lib Dems.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris will be doing a live debate on BBC 1 but not the Channel 4 one.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Gated estates and slums? Where? The tax cuts for £50-£80k earners will be tax cuts for middle class GPs and some teachers, so they will probably like the idea, but that's Boris who isn't in the ERG.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You what?
> 
> Gated estates and slums? Where? The tax cuts for £50-£80k earners will be tax cuts for middle class GPs and some teachers, so they will probably like the idea, but that's Boris who isn't in the ERG.
> 
> Chuka had already left the Labour Party and started his own. It didn't do very well, so now he's left that one too and joined the Lib Dems.


Just you wait....

There is something about Chukka though... cannot warm up to him somehow...

Incidentally MPs earn just below 80 k... well chosen cutting point!!!

Though personally I don't believe in high taxes really...

I would though tax sugar and crisps!!!
Fizzy drinks!!! All that rubbish...


----------



## Magyarmum

*Especially for you @cheekscrip

NEWS THUMP

Friday 14 June 2019 by Davywavy*

*Liberal Democrats form new breakaway party to escape Chuka Umunna*









*The Liberal Democrat party has quit en masse to form a new, breakaway political party without Chuka Umunna in it, it has emerged.*

Umunna, who announced he was joining the party this morning, is expected to arrive at his first meeting to find nobody there but him.

"This will be normal for both Chuka and the Lib Dems, so we're not expecting him to notice for several days that the back door to Liberal Democrat HQ has been left open and we've taken all the milk out of the fridge," insiders told us.

"He might not notice until nobody shows up at our annual party conference, but even then that could just be the usual Liberal Democrat annual conference."

The new party will be called C.H.A.N.G.E., which stands for 'Chuka Has Another New Group Exodus"

"He just didn't fit in with the party as we knew it," said former Lib Dem spokesman Simon Williams.

"He's had a haircut, and his jacket didn't have leather patches on the elbows.

"Plus people have heard of him, which made us all feel a bit uncomfortable.

"And if he wasn't prepared to work for one overhyped magic grandpa in the form of Jeremy Corbyn, just imagine what he would have made of Vince Cable."


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> *Especially for you @cheekscrip
> 
> NEWS THUMP
> 
> Friday 14 June 2019 by Davywavy*
> 
> *Liberal Democrats form new breakaway party to escape Chuka Umunna*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Liberal Democrat party has quit en masse to form a new, breakaway political party without Chuka Umunna in it, it has emerged.*
> 
> Umunna, who announced he was joining the party this morning, is expected to arrive at his first meeting to find nobody there but him.
> 
> "This will be normal for both Chuka and the Lib Dems, so we're not expecting him to notice for several days that the back door to Liberal Democrat HQ has been left open and we've taken all the milk out of the fridge," insiders told us.
> 
> "He might not notice until nobody shows up at our annual party conference, but even then that could just be the usual Liberal Democrat annual conference."
> 
> The new party will be called C.H.A.N.G.E., which stands for 'Chuka Has Another New Group Exodus"
> 
> "He just didn't fit in with the party as we knew it," said former Lib Dem spokesman Simon Williams.
> 
> "He's had a haircut, and his jacket didn't have leather patches on the elbows.
> 
> "Plus people have heard of him, which made us all feel a bit uncomfortable.
> 
> "And if he wasn't prepared to work for one overhyped magic grandpa in the form of Jeremy Corbyn, just imagine what he would have made of Vince Cable."


Chuka chucked...:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

For anyone else who thinks leaving a habitable planet for future generations & all lifeforms is top priority please read these on our potential new PM candidates >>









https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/da...s-big-donation-boris-johnson-and-jeremy-hunt/

Katherine Hayhoe, one of the worlds leading climate scientist, notes the connection between climate denial and these groups.









*Mapped: A Who's Who of Brexit and Climate Science Denial*

By Chloe Farand and Mat Hope and Richard Collett-White • Monday, June 10, 2019

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2019/06/07/brexit-climate-denier-map


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> *Especially for you @cheekscrip
> 
> NEWS THUMP
> 
> Friday 14 June 2019 by Davywavy*
> 
> *Liberal Democrats form new breakaway party to escape Chuka Umunna*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Liberal Democrat party has quit en masse to form a new, breakaway political party without Chuka Umunna in it, it has emerged.*
> 
> Umunna, who announced he was joining the party this morning, is expected to arrive at his first meeting to find nobody there but him.
> 
> "This will be normal for both Chuka and the Lib Dems, so we're not expecting him to notice for several days that the back door to Liberal Democrat HQ has been left open and we've taken all the milk out of the fridge," insiders told us.
> 
> "He might not notice until nobody shows up at our annual party conference, but even then that could just be the usual Liberal Democrat annual conference."
> 
> The new party will be called C.H.A.N.G.E., which stands for 'Chuka Has Another New Group Exodus"
> 
> "He just didn't fit in with the party as we knew it," said former Lib Dem spokesman Simon Williams.
> 
> "He's had a haircut, and his jacket didn't have leather patches on the elbows.
> 
> "Plus people have heard of him, which made us all feel a bit uncomfortable.
> 
> "And if he wasn't prepared to work for one overhyped magic grandpa in the form of Jeremy Corbyn, just imagine what he would have made of Vince Cable."


:Hilarious Ive just added NewsThump to my Favourites.


----------



## Snoringbear

Seems like the elderly who were the majority of Brexit voters were happy to see economic damage plus half of them seeing their family members to lose their jobs. Now they're upset about TV licenses. Karma. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Ive just added NewsThump to my Favourites.


I can thoroughly recommend The Last Leg on Channel4 too  They just neatly pointed out that as far as the higher rate tax bad raise to 80k goes, MPs earn just under 79.5k...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I can thoroughly recommend The Last Leg on Channel4 too  They just neatly pointed out that as far as the higher rate tax bad raise to 80k goes, MPs earn just under 79.5k...


Yeah , its good.
I usually watch it but I was watching the news. Ironinc that tax dodger Lorraine is a guest tonight.


----------



## Calvine

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/14/jo-b...ery-acid-joke-doesnt-believe-mistake-9950280/
Can you imagine the public outcry if Tommy Robinson had said this (even supposedly as a joke)!!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/14/jo-b...ery-acid-joke-doesnt-believe-mistake-9950280/
> Can you imagine the public outcry if Tommy Robinson had said this (even, supposedly as a joke)!!


Many of his supporters would have probably condoned it if he had done.

I like Jo Brand, never used to until recently, but agree the 'Joke' was ill-advised and not acceptable.


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Now they're upset about TV licenses.


 I read that MP's can currently claim for a TV licence even if they are under 75?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Snoringbear said:


> Seems like the elderly who were the majority of Brexit voters were happy to see economic damage plus half of them seeing their family members to lose their jobs. Now they're upset about TV licenses. Karma. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ioners-losing-jobs-income-taxes-a7870871.html


Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....

Just rewind few pages back....

Wait till pensioners get the wind that NHS will go private....

Lots of treatments will be for "under 70 etc" .... once you past working age Tories will not worry if you might die or be house bound... or in pain....


----------



## Elles

Shame that politicians have let them down, wasting time and money delaying what they voted for.

And when people said it was nasty, you said it was tongue in cheek. 

You’ll be over 70 one day, unless you die before then, as will we all. As Brexit is going to be an absolute disaster, by the time you’re there, will you be living in one of the slums, or the gated community and will it be karma? Or will everyone who voted remain and only deserves the best have moved out of a dystopian Britain by then?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Shame that politicians have let them down, wasting time and money delaying what they voted for.
> 
> And when people said it was nasty, you said it was tongue in cheek.
> 
> You'll be over 70 one day, unless you die before then, as will we all.  As Brexit is going to be an absolute disaster, by the time you're there, will you be living in one of the slums, or the gated community and will it be karma? Or will everyone who voted remain and only deserves the best have moved out of a dystopian Britain by then?


It reminds me our seminar on pensions and the perils of State one...
Told them one should always be optimistic and hope we will never get there....

I am no expert but if you believe BOE who accidentally is responsible for assessment of financial stability...
But " who needs experts" ?

So if people know by now they were lied to and frankly duped by ERG and still stand by?

It is very hard to admit Remainers were right.
That Brexit will benefit the likes of Putin and Trump but as to making Britain free?

I think people will not admit it until it hits them. TV license, winter fuel etc...
But when it does it will be too late.

Now France overtook Britain as bigger economy and Wall Street overtook The City.
London lost its position to New York...

And who advocated Brexit?

Trump?

Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?

Brexit leaves Britain weaker, poorer and divided not only on the lines of Brexit.

It affects us all but not to the same extent.

Leavers made that bed... but many of them will not lie in it!

Why Scotland or Gibraltar have to be dragged out against our will?
We have NOT voted for it.


----------



## kimthecat

How is that knobhead Boris going to cope as a PM when he just messes things up and makes them worse as he did with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe situation .
She is still in an Iranian prison. 

British-Iranian mother Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe jailed in Iran on spying charges has began a new hunger strike.

Her husband Richard Ratcliffe said in a statement on Saturday that he received a phone call from his wife telling him she informed the Iranian judiciary she has stopped taking food in protest of her 'unfair imprisonment'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...liffe-begins-new-hunger-strike-Iran-jail.html


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious


 *Jeremy Corbin MP, Prime Ministerial Parody*‏ @*CorbynSnap* 2h2 hours ago

Boris Johnson's mettle should be tested in public: he should be taking difficult questions, debating his rivals and facing the country's toughest journalistic interrogators just like I never do.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> It reminds me our seminar on pensions and the perils of State one...
> Told them one should always be optimistic and hope we will never get there....
> 
> I am no expert but if you believe BOE who accidentally is responsible for assessment of financial stability...
> But " who needs experts" ?
> 
> So if people know by now they were lied to and frankly duped by ERG and still stand by?
> 
> It is very hard to admit Remainers were right.
> That Brexit will benefit the likes of Putin and Trump but as to making Britain free?
> 
> I think people will not admit it until it hits them. TV license, winter fuel etc...
> But when it does it will be too late.
> 
> Now France overtook Britain as bigger economy and Wall Street overtook The City.
> London lost its position to New York...
> 
> And who advocated Brexit?
> 
> Trump?
> 
> Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?
> 
> Brexit leaves Britain weaker, poorer and divided not only on the lines of Brexit.
> 
> It affects us all but not to the same extent.
> 
> Leavers made that bed... but many of them will not lie in it!
> 
> Why Scotland or Gibraltar have to be dragged out against our will?
> We have NOT voted for it.


@cheekyscrip said "Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?"

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that the French were "adamant" that the UK join the EU, because they weren't! Quite the opposite in fact as you wll see from this Guardian article of 1967 where De Gaulle makes it quite clear that he totally opposed the UK's entry with an emphatic "No"!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1967/nov/28/eu.france

*Emphatic 'No' by de Gaulle*


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> It reminds me our seminar on pensions and the perils of State one...
> Told them one should always be optimistic and hope we will never get there....
> 
> I am no expert but if you believe BOE who accidentally is responsible for assessment of financial stability...
> But " who needs experts" ?
> 
> So if people know by now they were lied to and frankly duped by ERG and still stand by?
> 
> It is very hard to admit Remainers were right.
> That Brexit will benefit the likes of Putin and Trump but as to making Britain free?
> 
> I think people will not admit it until it hits them. TV license, winter fuel etc...
> But when it does it will be too late.
> 
> Now France overtook Britain as bigger economy and Wall Street overtook The City.
> London lost its position to New York...
> 
> And who advocated Brexit?
> 
> Trump?
> 
> Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?
> 
> Brexit leaves Britain weaker, poorer and divided not only on the lines of Brexit.
> 
> It affects us all but not to the same extent.
> 
> Leavers made that bed... but many of them will not lie in it!
> 
> Why Scotland or Gibraltar have to be dragged out against our will?
> We have NOT voted for it.


I don't know what BOE is, but how can you expect leave voters to say they made a mistake when we haven't brexited yet and we've had remainers in charge of the process? Remainers in government said it would be a disaster, do you blame them for trying to make their own predictions come true when they're in a position to do it?

When Boris and Co make it clear they would have cocked it up too (if they do), only then would I side with you and say yes, voters should have agreed with me and voted remain, because there was no one in charge who could be relied on to leave the Eu in a tidy manner that benefits anyone much.

Unfortunately Gibraltar and NI did vote for it when they voted to remain part of Britain as a priority. Gib could join Spain and stay in the Eu if they really wanted to. The British Government has always said it's up to Gib. Would Gibraltar be better of staying in the Eu under Spanish rule instead do you think?


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> @cheekyscrip said "Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?"
> 
> I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that the French were "adamant" that the UK join the EU, because they weren't! Quite the opposite in fact as you wll see from this Guardian article of 1967 where De Gaulle makes it quite clear that he totally opposed the UK's entry with an emphatic "No"!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/1967/nov/28/eu.france
> 
> *Emphatic 'No' by de Gaulle*


Lol I thought cheeky was being sarcastic when she said the French wanted us in. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> @cheekyscrip said "Why French were so adamant for so long for Britain to join in?"
> 
> I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that the French were "adamant" that the UK join the EU, because they weren't! Quite the opposite in fact as you wll see from this Guardian article of 1967 where De Gaulle makes it quite clear that he totally opposed the UK's entry with an emphatic "No"!


He said NON twice!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....
> 
> Just rewind few pages back....
> 
> ...


 TV licences being withdrawn is nothing to do with Brexit and it is ignorant to say so .
It is not the result of their actions so it is not karma , yet you gleefully see it as that and that they deserve it ..or any other bad thing that happens.

let me ask you something , you have had bad things happen to you or people you know, how would you feel if someone said that it is your own fault , its karma .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Should Scotland join Spain too?

Brexit is destroying our economy.

It is not about a piece of a rock, it is about our community.


Brexit is not what the post war Europe was meant to be.

Spanish nationalism and postfrankist neofascisism are destroying the relationship between Gibraltar and Spain.

It was a good one since Wellington beat Napoleon at Salamanca till Franco.

It was Franco’s idea to get back or at least destroy Gibraltar, because it didn’t want to be Spanish.
So according to you it should be given to Spain because we wanted to stay in EU?
Because we wanted our country to prosper?
Because we think Putin and Trump are much more dangerous than EU ?

EU is not perfect and I could see how MIFID II can be painful with all that regulations...

Yet losing passporting rights will be a great blow for the City , and it is the engine of British economy.


So who will lead the nation? 
Failed Foreign Secretary? Former Minister of Justice famous for zero tolerance and little bit of coke on the side?
Is anyone actually successful and decent with a chance?

I would be very happy if karma got all those who deliberately drag this country down for their own personal gain.
All parties included. Left and right.


And who gave them the power?

Is BoJo not a two faced liar with two speeches ready for any outcome of referendum?

Did Gove not backstab him as he previously did Cameron?

Ask doctors what they think of Hunt... 

One of them will be the next PM and has nothing to do with karma...


----------



## Calvine

Plus it tells me quite a bit about the mistress.


kimthecat said:


> that knobhead Boris


The fact that he would flaunt his mistress while still married to, (albeit separated from) the woman who put up with his crap for so long is what I find very distasteful and tells me much about the sort of uncaring, insensitive person he is - his mistress too. It's not that long ago that the papers dubbed him ''Bonking Boris'' in connection with another woman (this after he had fathered a fifth child with someone else). He has adult children who probably cringe that the man who is still married to their mother is shacked up with a woman near to their age. Is he going to move her into Number 10 while he is still married, or does he plan a really quick divorce to make it more acceptable? You are right: he truly is a ''knobhead'' (love that word).


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Now they're upset about TV licenses. Karma


Since this is nothing to do with Brexit, it cannot possibly be karma (whatever you believe karma to be):

_*''good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions''*_

It has to do with the BBC, not what anyone voted for in 2016. (Don't worry; you are not the only one on this thread who does not understand the meaning of the word.)


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Since this is nothing to do with Brexit, it cannot possibly be karma:
> 
> _*''good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions''*_
> 
> It has to do with the BBC. (Don't worry; you are not the only one on this thread who does not understand the meaning of the word.)


Yes, it was Government policy to maintain the free TV licenses. It *is *their responsibility.

The BBC are a public service broadcaster controlled by the Government.

The excuse to pass the responsibility to the BBC doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.

If it was Sky putting their charges up that's an entirely different matter of course.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Yes, it was Government policy to maintain the free TV licenses. It *is *their responsibility.
> 
> The BBC are a public service broadcaster controlled by the Government.
> 
> The excuse to pass the responsibility to the BBC doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.
> 
> If it was Sky putting their charges up that's an entirely different matter of course.


I should think that people should have free access to government TV channel even for national's security's sake!!!

How else you can effectively issue a warning whether it is a natural disaster, severe weather warning, terrorist attack or environmental disaster?
Not everyone has internet and not everyone is online?
What about the right to information?


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I should think that people should have free access to government TV channel even for national's security's sake!!!
> 
> How else you can effectively issue a warning whether it is a natural disaster, severe weather warning, terrorist attack or environmental disaster?
> Not everyone has internet and not everyone is online?
> What about the right to information?


You don't need a licence for a radio which will give you the above information if and when necessary.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> TV licences being withdrawn is nothing to do with Brexit and it is ignorant to say so.


Technically, it's not. But Brexit has resulted in an extreme government in what has effectively become a one party state, at least until Corbyn finally stands down.

They can get away with unpopular measures such as this, even suspend Parliament to get policies through that would have been unheard of five years ago.

Still, it's encouraging to see even the worst of the gutter press are campaigning to overturn this cruel tax on older people.

I'll always give credit where it's due.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> You don't need a licence for a radio which will give you the above information if and when necessary.


Yes, I think the Radio licence became a combined Radio and TV Licence around 1970. You are indeed right, at the present time, a separate radio licence is not required for those who don't own a TV set.

If older people are forced to buy a licence again, will it restore an appetite for Black and White? The B&W licence is £52 compared to £154.50 for a colour one.

No large screen B&W tv sets have been manufactured since the 1980s, so little option really.

I always had a B&W licence throughout the '80s, as I watched on a 1960s 23" black and white valved set!

Going back to Cheeky's point, they are deaf people to consider of course.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> You don't need a licence for a radio which will give you the above information if and when necessary.


Which if you have hearing impairment does not help much?

I still believe that people should have free access at least to BBC1 and BBC2.
Everyone.
Plus those programs should provide the basic information to educate society in all important matters: politics, health, financial etc...

Many disastrous decisions could be avoided if people had idea where they can find information - TV is much more efficient than radio.

Government is directly responsible for providing the education for all citizens.
By media.


----------



## rona

TV is a great exercise in brainwashing


----------



## Elles

Not everyone has a tv. I don’t agree that free tv should be available to all, someone has to pay for it and tv is pretty low on the priorities when families are queueing at food banks.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Not everyone has a tv. I don't agree that free tv should be available to all, someone has to pay for it and tv is pretty low on the priorities when families are queueing at food banks.


That isn't the point, especially when announcing further tax cuts for the wealthiest at the same time! If the government can afford that, they can afford to maintain free TV licences!

I get your point when it comes to millionaires for example, but means testing of a difference between five pounds can make a difference between someone qualifying or not.

Besides, many older people are very proud and may not apply to rightfully entitled benefits such as this, even if they qualify.

Television is no longer seen as a luxury as it once was. For many, not just the elderly, it's their only source to the outside world.

I expect off-peak free travel on public transport to end next.

EDIT - perhaps time to separate this from the Brexit thread?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Not everyone has a tv. I don't agree that free tv should be available to all, someone has to pay for it and tv is pretty low on the priorities when families are queueing at food banks.


I don't agree... I should say TV for many is just as important as food "_panem etc circenses".
_
Company, information, entertainment- very important for house bound, or anyone's who spends lots of time on their own or very limited company.
Very important for combating depression and I am not joking.
Nothing disabled or elderly complain more about than if they cannot have their TV.

The news, the serials, or just simply to hear someone's voice and not be left alone in silence.

Unless you have internet and TV screen, but often elderly do not.

This is why prisoners have right to TV - information and education it provides so they do not lose contact with outside world.

To prevent isolation and depression.

So why anyone who did no wrong should be deprived of something even criminals are entitled to???

Isn't that ironic?


----------



## Elles

That’s a problem with society not a lack of tv licence. There’s nothing to stop a charity like age concern asking for donations and providing the tv licences. The government could charge a fee on things like Netflix, amazon prime, sky, virgin media maybe to pay for it? 

I don’t agree that tax payers should pay for tv licences for everyone as soon as they hit 75. There are a lot of things that tax payers have to pay for, I don’t think that’s one of them when all kinds of essentials are being cut back. I do however think the bbc can and should afford it, maybe even if it means a slight increase for everyone else, or a cut back on some programme spending.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> That's a problem with society not a lack of tv licence. There's nothing to stop a charity like age concern asking for donations and providing the tv licences. The government could charge a fee on things like Netflix, amazon prime, sky, virgin media maybe to pay for it?
> 
> I don't agree that tax payers should pay for tv licences for everyone as soon as they hit 75. There are a lot of things that tax payers have to pay for, I don't think that's one of them when all kinds of essentials are being cut back. I do however think the bbc can and should afford it, maybe even if it means a slight increase for everyone else, or a cut back on some programme spending.


Why all kind of essentials should be cut down?
Anything to do with our stumped economy thanks to Brexit?
We had such a healthy growth before referendum and such a decent exchange to USD and Euro - something like 1 to 1.50 ???

Difficult to believe now... when we are close to parity.... GDP to Euro 1 to 1.12 today....

Definitely a slump in investments and capital coming in, but great deal of movement out of UK...

Of course it affects the budget...

Funny how some cannot see the connection between the money coming into the budget and the money government can spend...

But as we need no experts... maybe then the duty of the government to provide information and education for the masses can be suspended and no free TV access needed?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Why all kind of essentials should be cut down?
> Anything to do with our stumped economy thanks to Brexit?
> We had such a healthy growth before referendum and such a decent exchange to USD and Euro - something like 1 to 1.50 ???
> 
> Difficult to believe now... when we are close to parity....


We haven't left yet. Stuff was cut back long before the referendum. Austerity and all that. It's in part why people voted to leave the Eu. Chicken or egg?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> We haven't left yet. Stuff was cut back long before the referendum. Austerity and all that. It's in part why people voted to leave the Eu. Chicken or egg?


I thought austerity was very much the Tories idea?
Not all EU countries went that road and some frankly refused.

I think it austerity had more to do with financial crisis of 2008 caused by lack of proper prudential supervision of many UK banks and other lenders...
Regulations were vastly changed and amended , capital requirements and solvency stress testing much more stringent.

But that crisis of 2008 same as London rioting was quite home made?

Or hordes from EU invaded London?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I thought austerity was very much the Tories idea?
> Not all EU countries went that road and some frankly refused.
> 
> I think it austerity had more to do with financial crisis of 2008 caused by lack of proper prudential supervision of many UK banks and other lenders...
> Regulations vastly changed and amended , capital requirements and solvency stress testing much more stringent.
> 
> But that crisis of 2008 same as London rioting was quite home made?
> 
> Or hordes from EU invaded London?


Haven't we done this before? You just said we were all ok before the referendum and blame brexit, I reminded you that we weren't and haven't brexited yet. That's all. We've already thrashed out the Eu views on austerity, the Greece thing and all that Jazz.

We don't agree on politics. You think the government should pay for tv licences for over 75 year olds regardless of status, I don't agree and would rather the money spent on something else. Nothing to do with Brexit tbh. and a minor thing in the great scheme of things. I'm a Thatcherite capitalist, you're a socialist, ofc we won't agree.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Haven't we done this before? You just said we were all ok before the referendum and blame brexit, I reminded you that we weren't and haven't brexited yet. That's all. We've already thrashed out the Eu views on austerity, the Greece thing and all that Jazz.
> 
> We don't agree on politics. You think the government should pay for tv licences for over 75 year olds regardless of status, I don't agree and would rather the money spent on something else. Nothing to do with Brexit tbh. and a minor thing in the great scheme of things. I'm a Thatcherite capitalist, you're a socialist, ofc we won't agree.


We nicely recovered from 2008 and we already had that" Brexit had not happened yet" discussed. Of course referendum had a huge impact on investors sentiment across the world- how the market sees the pound for example.

I am not quite sure if I am a socialist ... not much a fan of the commies to be sure and have great respect for MT's foreign politics and Falklands.

Plus we can shake on Corbyn... :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Technically, it's not.


Thank you.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


>


And get offended by such comments... :Smuggrin
Because "We are British!"

How dare you!!!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said: ↑
Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....

Just rewind few pages back....



kimthecat said:


> let me ask you something , you have had bad things happen to you or people you know, how would you feel if someone said that it is your own fault , its karma .


This isn't a rhetorical question. I get the feeling I'm not going to get an answer. I'm sure you think I'm making a fuss about nothing so I will tell you how I feel when something bad happened to me after Brexit and then I read on here members saying it Karma , It makes me feel* very* angry and *very* upset . It is hurtful.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> It makes me feel* very* angry and *very* upset . It is hurtful.


Honestly, it's not worth being angry or upset. It won't make any difference to them, they can't see a problem because* THEY ARE RIGHT* and as you know, there's far more important things to get upset and angry about


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> cheekyscrip said: ↑
> Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....
> 
> Just rewind few pages back....
> 
> This isn't a rhetorical question. I get the feeling I'm not going to get an answer. I'm sure you think I'm making a fuss about nothing so I will tell you how I feel when something bad happened to me after Brexit and then I read on here members saying it Karma , It makes me feel* very* angry and *very* upset . It is hurtful.


Why aren't they honest and just say "It serves you b*****y well right"!


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Honestly, it's not worth being angry or upset. It won't make any difference to them, they can't see a problem because* THEY ARE RIGHT* and as you know, there's far more important things to get upset and angry about


Thanks. It had nothing to do with Brexit , not like losing a job, but Im sure they would somehow find some odd connection to it


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Thanks. It had nothing to do with Brexit , not like losing a job, but Im sure they would somehow find some odd connection to it


I, that's me myself, had realised it had nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


>


At least he apologised for Piers Morgan!!!!

Nice.

With morbid curiosity waiting for BoJo to become the PM.

No wonder he refused to take part in the next debate. All is well... then he opens his mouth!!!enguin


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> cheekyscrip said: ↑
> Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....
> 
> Just rewind few pages back....
> 
> This isn't a rhetorical question. I get the feeling I'm not going to get an answer. I'm sure you think I'm making a fuss about nothing so I will tell you how I feel when something bad happened to me after Brexit and then I read on here members saying it Karma , It makes me feel* very* angry and *very* upset . It is hurtful.


I really can't believe that people believe in karma anyway . . . as tho' it's some sort of witchcraft the way people bang on about it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> cheekyscrip said: ↑
> Be careful, I said that k word and was told how nasty of me....
> 
> Just rewind few pages back....
> 
> This isn't a rhetorical question. I get the feeling I'm not going to get an answer. I'm sure you think I'm making a fuss about nothing so I will tell you how I feel when something bad happened to me after Brexit and then I read on here members saying it Karma , It makes me feel* very* angry and *very* upset . It is hurtful.


Tbh if as a result of costs of Brexit cuts have to be made and for example 75 plus have to pay for TV license it is related to Brexit that already cost us 4bln? Not really karma, just consequences.... I wish we never spent those 4 bln on Brexit ...


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Tbh if as a result of costs of Brexit cuts have to be made and for example 75 plus have to pay for TV license it is related to Brexit that already cost us 4bln? Not really karma, just consequences.... I wish we never spent those 4 bln on Brexit ...


Whoosh! that's the sound of my point going over your head.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Whoosh! that's the sound of my point going over your head.


Yep, dodged it and it just splattered...
Or was that overripe tomato sent my way?


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted, moved to the new TV Licence thread as off topic here.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Deleted, moved to the new TV Licence thread as off topic here.


A lot of stuff is off topic.

I see you copied and pasted posts between me and Cheeky although you failed to post Cheekys original post about old people getting what they deserved and also Snoring Bears post about old people and karma . you also failed to add your own opinion . Why is that ?
Thats sneaky and underhand which doesnt surprise me .

I see the posts have been removed .FYI I didn't request this. I was going to add the posts you missed out to give it context so members could see how nasty remainers get towards leavers


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> A lot of stuff is off topic.
> I see you copied and pasted posts between me and Cheeky although you failed to post Cheekys original post about old people getting what they deserved and also Snoring Bears post about old people and karma . you also failed to add your own opinion . Why is that ?
> Thats sneaky and underhand which doesnt surprise me .
> 
> I see the posts have been removed .FYI I didn't request this. I was going to add the post you missed out to give it context so membes could see how nasty remainers get towards leavers


I removed my own very off topic post deliberately by attempting to copy and paste, but didn't do a very good job in it.

I stand by my belief that, while not being directly Brexit related, it has enabled a more extreme right wing Tory government who can get away with implementing such unpopular moves such as this. They're guaranteed to win the next GE anyway, especially while Corbyn remains Labour leader.

Then, Thatcher did similar by introducing the Poll Tax in her third term which, despite Tory spin that, "Conservative Councils Cost You Less (Community charge)", backfired and eventually cost her the premiership.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I removed my own very off topic post deliberately by attempting to copy and paste, but didn't do a very good job in it.


That doesnt explain why you copied and pasted posts from here between me and Cheeky to another thread.
Im not sure if its allowed and it certainly isnt Netiquette.

So , did you remove those post from the other thread or did a Mod. ?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> That doesnt explain why you copied and pasted posts from here between me and Cheeky to another thread.
> Im not sure if its allowed and it certainly isnt Netiquette.
> 
> So , did you remove those post from the other thread or did a Mod. ?


Eeek! Sorry about that. I'll see to that immediately.

I was trying to copy Cheeky's comments. I'd obviously copied yours in error too.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Eeek! Sorry about that. I'll see to that immediately.
> 
> I was trying to copy Cheeky's comments. I'd obviously copied yours in error too.


They were removed . It must have been a Mod.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> They were removed . It must have been a Mod.


Are any mods still up?!

When I tried copy and paste at first I didn't realise the entire page would be copied, so I deleted most of it but kept Cheeky's comments in. It's possible that's what you saw before I edited it. Don't understand why I couldn't remove the numbers though.

To be safe, as I certainly don't want to err in quoting messages I deleted the lot and just left my own words.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

This made me laugh :Hilarious

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2349097461996311&id=1863944713844924


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> That doesnt explain why you copied and pasted posts from here between me and Cheeky to another thread.
> Im not sure if its allowed and it certainly isnt Netiquette.
> 
> So , did you remove those post from the other thread or did a Mod. ?


To be fair, that's quite easy to do. I've done it a couple of times by accident then wondered what the hell had happened


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Or was that overripe tomato sent my way?


No, @cheekyscrip: milkshakes are the weapon of choice this year, so just let @kimthecat know what flavour to get!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> They were removed . It must have been a Mod.


Don't mods notify you if a post has been removed? I am admin on another forum and I certainly would (tho' I have never had to).


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Don't mods notify you if a post has been removed? I am admin on another forum and I certainly would (tho' I have never had to).


I dont know . Never mind.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> To be fair, that's quite easy to do. I've done it a couple of times by accident then wondered what the hell had happened


I dont generally copy posts to other threads . Ive over reacted but it was weird. There was the original post starting the thread and then a couple of other long posts with lots of dialogue between me and cheeky mainly about the K word and nothing else at the time.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> No, @cheekyscrip: milkshakes are the weapon of choice this year, so just let @kimthecat know what flavour to get!


_Piña colada , mojito.... all the foreign muck ... send it my way...cappuccino? Macchiato!

No margaritas please, Tabasco stains and eyes hurt..._


----------



## KittenKong

Having failed to discredit the SNP over Jim Callaghan's ousting _forty years ago,_ this is a superb tweet.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, it's amazing what some believe!

https://veryweather.co.uk/2019/06/t...xAB1_iDxsGCn5LWrH2hQsYC2TKaVzYRZlvr2-O43Xwwy0


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> Well, it's amazing what some believe!
> 
> https://veryweather.co.uk/2019/06/t...xAB1_iDxsGCn5LWrH2hQsYC2TKaVzYRZlvr2-O43Xwwy0
> 
> View attachment 407491
> View attachment 407492


I'm assuming there must be a comments section my adblocker is nixing, given that the site itself proudly proclaims it's satire


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Well, it's amazing what some believe!


Its a joke.  If you werent being serious , its worthwhile putting a smilie.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> I'm assuming there must be a comments section my adblocker is nixing, given that the site itself proudly proclaims it's satire





kimthecat said:


> Its a joke.  If you werent being serious , its worthwhile putting a smilie.


Of course it is. Found it funny though.


----------



## kimthecat

Yeah it is.:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

So BoJo as PM endorsed by ERG and promising No Deal.


So, happy now?

Our unforgettable Foreign Secretary who proved so capable of offending any nation....

No Deal in the bank...

I understand Leave voters already preparing the bunting...

Trump must be happy too...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> So BoJo as PM endorsed by ERG and promising No Deal.
> 
> So, happy now?
> 
> Our unforgettable Foreign Secretary who proved so capable of offending any nation....
> 
> No Deal in the bank...
> 
> I understand Leave voters already preparing the bunting...
> 
> Trump must be happy too...


And so close to Christmas too?
Will a reissue of this be Britain's first post Brexit Christmas Number One?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> And so close to Christmas too?
> Will a reissue of this be Britain's first post Brexit Christmas Number One?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 407604


I think we will leave on Halloween, cackling witches but no candies...

I can imagine BoJo as a giant pumpkin!!!

Another scary stuff - basically except for Rory they wish to go over the Parliament and force Brexit, No Deal as if referendum was a mandate for that.

Clearly was not and how many Leave voters support No Deal if aware of consequences???

There must be some people who are too sensible to inflict No Deal and ruin so many businesses.

So many livehoods. I think business made it clear and BOE made it clear where No Deal leaves us.

Or we still need no experts?

I honestly wish I were wrong.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> And so close to Christmas too?
> Will a reissue of this be Britain's first post Brexit Christmas Number One?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 407604


Vera Lynn could re record it and get a Christmas No 1 . She's 102 !


----------



## Snoringbear

Thanks Boris and leave voters. You've made me better off

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/10/boris-johnson-promise-tax-cut-raise-40p-threshold


----------



## kimthecat

Snoringbear said:


> Thanks Boris and leave voters. You've made me better off
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/10/boris-johnson-promise-tax-cut-raise-40p-threshold


Enjoy . You should be thanking Tory voters and the Llamas who voted Corbyn in .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Enjoy . and the Llamas who voted Corbyn in .


Who could have predicted people who have championed brexit thoughout would find themselves scapegoats ? lol


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Having failed to discredit the SNP over Jim Callaghan's ousting _forty years ago,_ this is a superb tweet.
> 
> View attachment 407456


Personally, like Chuka, what I can't forgive about the lib dems is that they enabled the tories ruthless austerity policies which helped to enable brexit KK. (I concede Corbyn has a been useless on brexit however - if he doesnt come out strongly for a peoples vote now he will be crushed)


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Not everyone has a tv. I don't agree that free tv should be available to all, someone has to pay for it and tv is pretty low on the priorities when families are queueing at food banks.


If theres enough money to give tax cuts for the rich, theres enough money for TV licences for the elderly AND to help the poor. Austerity is a con, to transfer public money into private pockets.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Haven't we done this before? You just said we were all ok before the referendum and blame brexit, I reminded you that we weren't and haven't brexited yet. That's all. We've already thrashed out the Eu views on austerity, the Greece thing and all that Jazz.
> 
> We don't agree on politics. You think the government should pay for tv licences for over 75 year olds regardless of status, I don't agree and would rather the money spent on something else. Nothing to do with Brexit tbh. and a minor thing in the great scheme of things. I'm a Thatcherite capitalist, you're a socialist, ofc we won't agree.











https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-support-uk-eu-european-economy-a8514701.html

FWIW, I'm an anti capitalist - I stand for nature. So, imo, its insane to put an economic ideology above the welfare of our natural world on which we & all living things depend. Thatchers toxic ideology of greed is at the heart of our problems. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> What do you think of Boris's brother , Jo Johnson? He seems to be the opposite of Boris. I would vote for him if he put himself forward . (I like his dad too.  ) perhaps he wouldn't have been selected because he wants a Peoples vote.


Jo knows the price of everything & the value of nothing - like the rest of his party.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Personally, like Chuka, what I can't forgive about the lib dems is that they enabled the tories ruthless austerity policies which helped to enable brexit KK. (I concede Corbyn has a been useless on brexit however - if he doesnt come out strongly for a peoples vote now he will be crushed)


This is what's so frustrating. Labour should be leading the opposition to Brexit, not the Lib Dems. I feel much the way you do, but memories of a terrible coalition are irrelevant to what we're now facing which will be a thousand times worse.

While the coalition was terrible I don't blame it for the Brexit vote. That was 40 years of media drip feeding anti EEC/EU propaganda, plus the tried and tested methods they used during the Falklands that was primarily responsible. The coalition didn't help either of course.

Corbyn's Labour leadership has been as disastrous as May's Premiership.
He had every opportunity to be a true opposition to Tory policy, as we saw in 2017, but he's blown it by embracing the ending of FoM as also agreed by Farage and the Tories. Brexit is also Tory policy! Labour supporters such as myself hoped he would wake up and smell the coffee and accept the Labour Brexit plan has no less unicorns and fairy tales than the Tories.

He certainly confirmed his continued pro-Brexit stance by avoiding the 23-03-19 London march by 'campaigning' in Morecambe.

Then the unforgivable six wasted weeks of assisting Theresa May with a compromise to her Brexit plan. The talks eventually broke down which isn't the point.

He, (as did May), obviously believed he could reach a compromise to her deal as he wouldn't have wasted his time. The fact he chose to attempt working with May, in preference to supporting a PV with remain option, with her track record of Windrush etc.......

Under his leadership, the Tories can get away with ending free TV Licences they wouldn't have dared do if faced with the possibility of a Labour government. It isn't going to happen as long as he remains Labour leader.

Speaking to others, many pro-EU people I know have left the Labour Party, let alone vote for them. Brexit supporting Labour voters mostly say they won't vote for him as he's a 'terrorist sympathiser'. No prizes for guessing which papers they read!

So, choosing to ignore the 48% in favour of the 52% has also backfired.

Corbyn will have no choice but to stand down when he loses the next GE. Just wish he'd stand down now which will enable Labour with a better chance on a pro-Remain agenda.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Shame that politicians have let them down, wasting time and money delaying what they voted for.


What did people vote for? Because nobody voted for no deal. No deal was never mentioned in the leave campaigns.


----------



## KittenKong

From FB regarding the Labour position:

Why? Only 37% of the population voted for it. 

Under no circumstances should the Labour Party ever support the Tories and this is a hard right wing Tory policy. 

This is a disaster for a left wing party. Anyone who thinks leaving under a Tory government is going to lead to a restoration of socialism and social values I'd living in cloud cuckoo land. Liam Fox has already got a deal written which will hand the NHS over to an American health insurance company on a 10 or 15 year contract. No future labour govt will be able to break that contract. 

Look at Warrington. They've introduced charges for cataracts, knee and hip replacements and this is what the trust says; 

" However, where the NHS (CCG) has decided not to fund a treatment routinely, the fact that the patient has demonstrated a benefit from the treatment to date (in the absence of any evidence of exceptionality) would not be a proper basis for the NHS to agree to support the application. To adopt any other stance would result in the NHS approving funding differentially for persons who could afford to fund part of their own treatment. If funding is granted, the CCG will not reimburse the patient for any treatment received as a private patient before the exceptional request was successful. " 

When did we lose the free at the point of delivery Jeremy? When did our NHS become a self-funding system with people deemed able to pay for their operations forced to do so?


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> View attachment 407731


If the new government will be as well run as this debate...

It was dismal!!!

The format, the mediator... not to mention the candidates...no audience but preselected viewers...

May was very much accidental PM after the Night of Long Knives...

BoJo was meant to be clowned but Gove and Loathsome decided to go for it...

BoJo has one ambition only - to be PM.

How many people who voted Leave hoping for promised reasonable deal with EU protecting business, farming etc... will dare to say they were wrong and will not back BoJo, ERG to save the country?

Or they want No Deal Brexit no matter how much suffering it will bring?


----------



## [email protected]

I am not British, but have lived in the UK on and off and have been here for the past 3 years. Just to say... remain or leave... I have never before experienced such divisions in UK society as has been caused by Brexit. It is an incredible shame. People that stood together so strongly during the World Wars should not be divided like this. I blame the politicians for their shameless 'divide and rule' tactics. Shameful and tragic chaos.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I concede Corbyn has a been useless on brexit however - if he doesn't come out strongly for a peoples vote now he will be crushed


He will be crushed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...um-policy-back-meeting-break-up-a8965896.html


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> This is what's so frustrating. Labour should be leading the opposition to Brexit, not the Lib Dems. I feel much the way you do, but memories of a terrible coalition are irrelevant to what we're now facing which will be a thousand times worse.


I too am frustrated, but I fear labour are damned whatever they do. Personally, I can't forgive the lib dems complicity - they are responsible for enabling the deaths tens of thousands of people (& badgers) KK.

I feel just like Francesca.








KittenKong said:


> While the coalition was terrible I don't blame it for the Brexit vote. That was 40 years of media drip feeding anti EEC/EU propaganda, plus the tried and tested methods they used during the Falklands that was primarily responsible. The coalition didn't help either of course.


Austerity was a factor though = https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/23/austerity-brexit-suffering-eu-anger



KittenKong said:


> Corbyn's Labour leadership has been as disastrous as May's Premiership.
> He had every opportunity to be a true opposition to Tory policy, as we saw in 2017, but he's blown it by embracing the ending of FoM as also agreed by Farage and the Tories. Brexit is also Tory policy! Labour supporters such as myself hoped he would wake up and smell the coffee and accept the Labour Brexit plan has no less unicorns and fairy tales than the Tories.


I 100% agree with you on this point.



KittenKong said:


> Then the unforgivable six wasted weeks of assisting Theresa May with a compromise to her Brexit plan. The talks eventually broke down which isn't the point.
> 
> He, (as did May), obviously believed he could reach a compromise to her deal as he wouldn't have wasted his time. The fact he chose to attempt working with May, in preference to supporting a PV with remain option, with her track record of Windrush etc.......


Nicola Sturgeon also met with May. IMO opposition leaders had to be seen to be trying - and as they all said, May refused to compromise.



KittenKong said:


> Under his leadership, the Tories can get away with ending free TV Licences they wouldn't have dared do if faced with the possibility of a Labour government. It isn't going to happen as long as he remains Labour leader.


Under different labour leaderships the tories have pushed though far more damaging policies KK. The reason a lot of people liked Corbyn, was that he didn't subscribe to the tories neoliberal ideology as the right wing of his party did.



KittenKong said:


> Speaking to others, many pro-EU people I know have left the Labour Party, let alone vote for them. Brexit supporting Labour voters mostly say they won't vote for him as he's a 'terrorist sympathiser'. No prizes for guessing which papers they read!


Cant argue with this.



KittenKong said:


> So, choosing to ignore the 48% in favour of the 52% has also backfired.
> 
> Corbyn will have no choice but to stand down when he loses the next GE. Just wish he'd stand down now which will enable Labour with a better chance on a pro-Remain agenda.


Have you seen the letter sent to him by MPs in leave seats? My bloody MP has signed it!  And my MP isn't on the left of the party, he is a Blairite. What a mess, hey? 



KittenKong said:


> He will be crushed.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...um-policy-back-meeting-break-up-a8965896.html
> 
> View attachment 407740


I've just been reading labours Clive Lewis's twitter feed & saw this. Eloise Todd has just stepped down as CEO of Best for Britain. What do you make of it KK?


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> I've just been reading labours Clive Lewis's twitter feed & saw this. Eloise Todd has just stepped down as CEO of Best for Britain. What do you make of it KK?
> 
> View attachment 407743


Not a lot actually. This kind of thing needs to come from Corbyn himself, not John McDonnell or Tom Watson.

They are nowhere near there.


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Not a lot actually. This kind of thing needs to come from Corbyn himself, not John McDonnell or Tom Watson.
> 
> They are nowhere near there.


This is what Corbyn said yesterday - it seems to reflect what McDonnell said.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> This is what Corbyn said yesterday - it seems to reflect what McDonnell said.


Yes, I've already seen that. Made my blood boil. Three bloody years of dithering and for what?

Dear God, he's as deluded as the rest of them are.

While he is of course right about a no deal Brexit he's still determined to embrace his own. May couldn't get her deal passed. What makes him think they would pass his which we'll never know either way.

Why can't he just accept at least 48% of the 2016 voting population don't want Brexit and many who support it want to leave without a deal?

Why do they still insist on achieving a Brexit deal when remaining is the best option? If I hear anything about respecting the result or, "The will of the people" again..... I'd expect that from the Tories as it's their policy after all. Not from the main opposition FFS!!!!

He's wants to hear our views does he? He's been told many times but, like the Tories, he chooses to ignore us. Even insulted us by snubbing the 23rd March demo in favour of 'campaigning' in Morecambe.

A pure two fingers up to us that was.

So, Mr Corbyn, you can **** off.....


----------



## Elles

I’m lucky. Other than on the Internet I haven’t seen any divisions where I am.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> I'm lucky. Other than on the Internet I haven't seen any divisions where I am.


I mean, I could find them if I wanted to but you'd have to bring it up with people. Lets be honest, everyone is a little fed up of it now and the answer is usually 'just get on with it' in regards to delivering Brexit


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> I mean, I could find them if I wanted to but you'd have to bring it up with people. Lets be honest, everyone is a little fed up of it now and the answer is usually 'just get on with it' in regards to delivering Brexit


Round here, the answer is usually 'just cancel it'


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Round here, the answer is usually 'just cancel it'


That answer comes up too, but I seriously don't talk about politics with most people as it is a little depressing


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> That answer comes up too, but I seriously don't talk about politics with most people as it is a little depressing


Dealing with reality often is a little depressing these days, but unfortunately Brexit is one bit none of us can afford to ignore given the impact it will have on the average Joe.

Plus, as far as I can tell the reason many people want to ignore it is because they don't want to think too hard about the potential consequences - they just want to hang on to the whatever Brexit looked like in their heads (which, again as far as I can tell, frequently looks suspiciously like the way things currently are, just with blue passports and possibly less foreigners). I do feel sorry for that group, as they are likely to be the worst prepared for whatever Brexit happens, let alone a hard Brexit.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Dealing with reality often is a little depressing these days, but unfortunately Brexit is one bit none of us can afford to ignore given the impact it will have on the average Joe.
> 
> Plus, as far as I can tell the reason many people want to ignore it is because they don't want to think too hard about the potential consequences - they just want to hang on to the whatever Brexit looked like in their heads (which, again as far as I can tell, frequently looks suspiciously like the way things currently are, just with blue passports and possibly less foreigners). I do feel sorry for that group, as they are likely to be the worst prepared for whatever Brexit happens, let alone a hard Brexit.


Or they could just be thinking, why haven't we left when we said we would over and over again. Now it's radio silence from the government in terms of Brexit, nothing new is coming out from them so what do we have to base new arguments/opinions from.
We are all in a weird state of limbo at the moment where we don't really know what is happening


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I mean, I could find them if I wanted to but you'd have to bring it up with people. Lets be honest, everyone is a little fed up of it now and the answer is usually 'just get on with it' in regards to delivering Brexit


May and Corbyn made the serious error in believing they did badly in the local elections through not delivering Brexit.

Likewise with the Euro ones. The Tories campaigned on May's deal and came fourth.

The split pro remain vote combined resulted in more votes than the Farage fascists in many areas, but due to them being a single party with the most votes they won the seats.

Does this not mean anything to them? This implies the English people want either No Deal or to Revoke A50.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> May and Corbyn made the serious error in believing they did badly in the local elections through not delivering Brexit.
> 
> Likewise with the Euro ones. The Tories campaigned on May's deal and came fourth.
> 
> The split pro remain vote combined resulted in more votes than the Farage fascists in many areas, but due to them being a single party with the most votes they won the seats.
> 
> Does this not mean anything to them? This implies the English people want either No Deal or to Revoke A50.


Not exactly KK, I get your line of thinking but if the 'remain' side of the argument had any wits about them then they would have banded together. It's called political strategy and when there is so much fighting within the same political party or ideal then it's hard to win.


----------



## KittenKong

Well said, from FB:

After GE it will be no-deal-Brexit (Brexit Party + Tories), vs no-Brexit (Lib Dems + Green) ... and Labour still dangling somewhere on the fence 

And to think Corbyn could smash it if he had a fair Brexit policy : - oppose the lies, - acknowledge that there are people who want out, - propose a better deal, - fully back a final say on any deal with an option to remain.

If he did that, then he'd take the next GE by a landslide ... but he's one of those people that could not take a win even if someone gave it to them on a silver platter (like imploding Tories did a few times already). I never wanted to say this, but he's useless right now :/


----------



## KittenKong

https://labourlist.org/2019/06/corbyn-we-have-committed-to-respecting-the-result-of-the-referendum/


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Or they could just be thinking, why haven't we left when we said we would over and over again.


Possibly, but ten seconds of common sense thinking gives a logical answer to that. Leaving the ship is one thing, but better to build yourself a decent lifeboat first rather than jump overboard without so much as a rubber ring. 



AlexPed2393 said:


> Now it's radio silence from the government in terms of Brexit, nothing new is coming out from them so what do we have to base new arguments/opinions from.


See, this I don't understand. Why do people continually expect something 'new' when fundamental truths haven't changed? The same old questions and issues are only coming up over and over again because they haven't been properly answered (or answered at all). So yes, I understand why people are frustrated at the lack of movement, but also appreciate that this is the result of the contradictory and conflicting requirements of the UK negotiation position - which, of course, the hardliners don't mind as long as they can paint all their failings as 'EU belligerence'



AlexPed2393 said:


> We are all in a weird state of limbo at the moment where we don't really know what is happening


Tell me about it, it's not doing my autie brain any good at all!


----------



## AlexPed2393

Jesthar said:


> Possibly, but ten seconds of common sense thinking gives a logical answer to that. Leaving the ship is one thing, but better to build yourself a decent lifeboat first rather than jump overboard without so much as a rubber ring.


Ten more seconds will conjure up the question as to why that lifeboat wasn't made before the deadlines, I'm not going to go into that argument for the millionth time


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> Ten more seconds will conjure up the question as to why that lifeboat wasn't made before the deadlines, I'm not going to go into that argument for the millionth time


It's a GOVERNMENT project - being years behind schedule, several times over budget and suffering from ridiculous design arguments and scope creep is _normal_! 

The only way to even be relatively sure we left two years after Article 50 was invoked would have been to make sure all the negotiating was done and dusted BEFORE the trigger was pulled. And even then...


----------



## Elles

Why not say what you think, rather than trying to guess what other people think?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> Why not say what you think, rather than trying to guess what other people think?


I'm just fed up with it all to be honest with you. I said my part over the last year or two, some of my views evolved, others stayed the same. The government as a whole is a bloody shambles and everyone can see it now.

Not just our government but worldwide politics is being shown as an absolute disgrace where they all live in their own little bubble, forgetting that people with lower wages than theirs do actually exist.


----------



## Elles

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm just fed up with it all to be honest with you. I said my part over the last year or two, some of my views evolved, others stayed the same. The government as a whole is a bloody shambles and everyone can see it now.
> 
> Not just our government but worldwide politics is being shown as an absolute disgrace where they all live in their own little bubble, forgetting that people with lower wages than theirs do actually exist.


I realised that a goodly few years ago. When I was younger I too believed in a better world and might even have been chanting 'Jeremy' along with the other students. Then I grew up. It could be why so many older people allegedly voted to leave the Eu. Many of us become more sceptical in our old age.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I realised that a goodly few years ago. When I was younger I too believed in a better world and might even have been chanting 'Jeremy' along with the other students. Then I grew up. It could be why so many older people allegedly voted to leave the Eu. Many of us become more sceptical in our old age.


Not sceptical enough if you could believe BoJo or Farage my dear!!!

Or darling JRM...such a champion of the underprivileged... 
ERG will lead us to the Promised Land???
With no austerity??? :Banghead

Chlorinated chicken for the hungry ...

Will ERG respect Parliament, or as such a free nation who needs democracy?

With Trump and Putin as our New BFFs???

Glorious future indeed.


----------



## Elles

Me believe Boris Johnson? Are you crazy?

People shouldn’t eat chicken, chlorinated or not. I’m not scared of Russian people.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Me believe Boris Johnson? Are you crazy?
> 
> People shouldn't eat chicken, chlorinated or not. I'm not scared of Russian people.


Putin is not Russian people...

How to put it : if you have faith in Brexit and don't believe Boris?

But you were ready to support Gove, who supported BoJo but then thought he can climb on the stool himself?

I will never call you crazy... you know where I live...:Bag


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Putin is not Russian people...
> 
> How to put it : if you have faith in Brexit and don't believe Boris?
> 
> But you were ready to support Gove, who supported BoJo but then thought he can climb on the stool himself?
> 
> I will never call you crazy... you know where I live...:Bag


I support Gove in part because he saw sense, stopped backing Boris and put himself forward.  He admitted he was wrong about Boris and knew he could do a better job himself. I agree. Even Mickey Mouse could do a better job than Boris, Gove could do it standing on his head. He's too controversial a figure for the conservatives though. They're scared of him.

I have no faith in Boris. He's worse than Cameron and I voted remain because of who was in charge at the time lol.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I support Gove in part because he saw sense, stopped backing Boris and put himself forward.  He admitted he was wrong about Boris and knew he could do a better job himself. I agree. Even Mickey Mouse could do a better job than Boris, Gove could do it standing on his head. He's too controversial a figure for the conservatives though. They're scared of him.
> 
> I have no faith in Boris. He's worse than Cameron and I voted remain because of who was in charge at the time lol.


Very true... you definitely would do better!
One of the problem with referendum that in comparison to May or BoJo Cameron was a better man!!!

Who voted Leave basically voted for Boris as he was very clear why he ditched Cameron.
Seems we can shake on BoJo too... it is getting scary!!!:Nailbiting


----------



## Elles

If the Eu represented Europe on the world stage in things such as trade, it would be fine. But too many people get rich from doing practically nothing and it interferes where imho it shouldn’t be interfering. I think we need an Eu lite, something better, more streamlined and less political. 

I wanted to vote to leave it. I didn’t because I didn’t think there was anyone in charge who could bring it about and it would be complex and potentially harmful. I can’t argue with leave voters, because I think their opinions on the Eu are quite right a lot of the time. Even its supporters want to reform it. We need to stop blaming brexit for everything. The Eu brought about the leave vote, not a sign on a bus and Nigel Farage.

I was half watching a European politician lady on tv a few moments ago and she agreed that the Eu needed extensive reform. She said that is what the new Eu wants to concentrate on, not what a member that is leaving it wants. I think it’s a darn shame that it took the U.K. leaving it. Unfortunately when Boris is PM we will leave by October, which won’t give us time to see the reforms and the new blood and have a people’s vote, which if the Eu is reformed, people may have agreed to.

Ah well.

ETA I also think that leaving does have potential and doesn’t have to be the disaster remainers are predicting. Though I suppose we’ll have to see what Boris does with it. Even I’m not quite so optimistic now. :Bag


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I've already seen that. Made my blood boil. Three bloody years of dithering and for what?
> 
> Dear God, he's as deluded as the rest of them are.
> 
> While he is of course right about a no deal Brexit he's still determined to embrace his own. May couldn't get her deal passed. What makes him think they would pass his which we'll never know either way.
> 
> Why can't he just accept at least 48% of the 2016 voting population don't want Brexit and many who support it want to leave without a deal?
> 
> Why do they still insist on achieving a Brexit deal when remaining is the best option? If I hear anything about respecting the result or, "The will of the people" again..... I'd expect that from the Tories as it's their policy after all. Not from the main opposition FFS!!!!
> 
> He's wants to hear our views does he? He's been told many times but, like the Tories, he chooses to ignore us. Even insulted us by snubbing the 23rd March demo in favour of 'campaigning' in Morecambe.
> 
> A pure two fingers up to us that was.
> 
> So, Mr Corbyn, you can **** off.....


He isn't the only obstacle though. I know you're in a labour seat which voted to leave - did your MP sign the letter I mentioned previously too? Most on that letter are to the right of the party. Labour dont even have the numbers to take a no deal off the table. Its such a mess, I'm so conflicted by it all - probably like Corbyn is lol. I do agree Corbyn should now commit fully to staying in the EU though, he will never be able to unite this country no matter how hard he tries.

Hope you wont accuse me of being patronising by asking if you would take a look at this? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/17/labour-iraq-war-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw



Elles said:


> I'm lucky. Other than on the Internet I haven't seen any divisions where I am.


I think you will when we crash out in October. It will all go rapidly downhill then.



Elles said:


> I support Gove in part because he saw sense, stopped backing Boris and put himself forward.  He admitted he was wrong about Boris and knew he could do a better job himself. I agree. Even Mickey Mouse could do a better job than Boris, Gove could do it standing on his head. He's too controversial a figure for the conservatives though. They're scared of him.
> 
> I have no faith in Boris. He's worse than Cameron and I voted remain because of who was in charge at the time lol.


If you took a cynical look at Gove you would see he couldn't even do a good job as SoS for Education standing on his feet! Like Johnson, Gove is just another extreme right wing selfservative.









https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-him-do-the-same-to-the-country-a7115381.html



Elles said:


> If the Eu represented Europe on the world stage in things such as trade, it would be fine. But too many people get rich from doing practically nothing and it interferes where imho it shouldn't be interfering. I think we need an Eu lite, something better, more streamlined and less political.
> 
> I wanted to vote to leave it. I didn't because I didn't think there was anyone in charge who could bring it about and it would be complex and potentially harmful. I can't argue with leave voters, because I think their opinions on the Eu are quite right a lot of the time. Even its supporters want to reform it. We need to stop blaming brexit for everything. The Eu brought about the leave vote, not a sign on a bus and Nigel Farage.
> 
> I was half watching a European politician lady on tv a few moments ago and she agreed that the Eu needed extensive reform. She said that is what the new Eu wants to concentrate on, not what a member that is leaving it wants. I think it's a darn shame that it took the U.K. leaving it. Unfortunately when Boris is PM we will leave by October, which won't give us time to see the reforms and the new blood and have a people's vote, which if the Eu is reformed, people may have agreed to.


Leaving the EU is like cutting your nose off to spite your face. The heart of most of this countries problems lies at Westminsters feet - not EUs.

The liars like Farage & Johnson backed by foreign dark money & propaganda , their mates in the right wing media, Martin Durkin with his anti EU propaganda movie influenced millions of people into voting leave against their own best interests, the best interests of the UK - and the living world.

The EU does need reforming, but Governments & MEPs are democratically elected! If EU haters want progressive policies maybe they'd be better voting for candidates who work in the interests of the people & the natural world rather than corporate interests & big money?

Because peoples votes make a difference. I would be absolutely gutted if I had given my vote to people like this >>>










*Fighting the system while grabbing its perks - Otto English on the Brexit Party MEPs' big day out in Brussels.*

These are awkward times for newbie MEPs in the Brexit Party, who - having been democratically elected to the err….. (checks notes) unelected and unaccountable EU have been obliged to actually turn up for work.:Hilarious

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/06/20/a-challenge-to-our-brexit-party-gravy-train-riding-meps/
.



















Elles said:


> ETA I also think that leaving does have potential and doesn't have to be the disaster remainers are predicting. Though I suppose we'll have to see what Boris does with it. Even I'm not quite so optimistic now. :Bag


No deal brexit could only ever be a disaster, so wouldn't matter if Johnson OR Gove was PM.. Its still Bye Bye NHS, hello disaster capitalism.

Rory (who voted AGAINST taking no deal off the table) explains the realities of no deal honestly & PERFECTLY.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I realised that a goodly few years ago. When I was younger I too believed in a better world and might even have been chanting 'Jeremy' along with the other students. Then I grew up. It could be why so many older people allegedly voted to leave the Eu. Many of us become more sceptical in our old age.


A better world IS possible. Neoliberalism is just an economic & political ideology - one which is destroying our young generations future. ( FWIW I don't think democratic socialism is the answer to climate & ecological breakdown either - we need something even more progressive)


----------



## KittenKong

Noushka:








No, not at all. I have seen the article before. I'm rather tried of hearing about the Iraq War to tell you the truth, it was 16 years ago. The ConDem coalition was nine years ago.

We can dwell on that indefinitely but nothing can be achieved from it. The past, whether good or bad cannot be changed.

In times such as this, I fear the future rather than memories of the past.

Yet, while recognising the past can influence the future, it's not the time to point fingers at others arguing, "It's all your fault", then, " No, it's yours", even if it was or whatever.

It achieves nothing while the 'country' further sleepwalks into a dark and potentially very disturbing place......

On FB there was a rant from someone regarding the Coalition. I argued by saying, by using his logic perhaps he should consider never voting Labour again over Iraq. Blair and Clegg are no longer, and never will be leaders of their respective parties ever again.

I don't like the Lib Dems, but it angers me it is them, with the Greens who are leading the campaign against Brexit and not the Labour Party in England.

If Labour continues to refuse to change stance, the Lib Dems, Greens and other pro-EU parties need to unite, even temporarily, in order not to split the remain vote. We saw what happened in the Euro elections allowing Farage to dominate when the collective anti-Brexit votes were higher, even in some 'Leave' voting areas.

But dwelling on the memories of an awful coalition government of nine years ago will probably prevent that from ever happening, while the UK edges even further to the extreme far right.

Better still, Labour urgently needs to adopt a strong pro-EU agenda, but I've lost all hope of that happening under their present hierarchy.

Oh yes, this from Change UK is hilarious isn't it?.......


----------



## KittenKong

Noushka:









You're right, but it appears Corbyn listens to them and not the majority of MPs. How many MPs do they have?!

I have never met a Brexit supporter who would vote for Corbyn, usually through unrelated issues such as what they've read about him in their papers. They're more likely to back Farage, or Johnson led Tories even if they 'traditionally' voted Labour before.

My MP isn't on the list even if her leaflets bleat on about, "Respecting the referendum result". To be fair on her she probably didn't get to write them. She voted against May's deal on all three occasions too.

Our former Labour MP who retired in 2017 was a brilliant bloke, and strongly anti-Brexit. He could see the referendum for what it was, a right-wing power grab.

Just a shame some other Labour Party members don't see it that way.


----------



## KittenKong

For those who haven't seen Labour's own fantasy Brexit plans they confirmed they were sticking by yesterday.

https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/

Vote for that? You've got to be joking!


----------



## AlexPed2393

I've walked into another echo chamber it seems


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> I've walked into another echo chamber it seems


:Hilarious


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious


Hahahaha, yes indeed, right on! @AlexPed2393 has a way with words sometimes, eh!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Noushka:
> View attachment 407853
> 
> No, not at all. I have seen the article before. I'm rather tried of hearing about the Iraq War to tell you the truth, it was 16 years ago. The ConDem coalition was nine years ago.
> 
> We can dwell on that indefinitely but nothing can be achieved from it. The past, whether good or bad cannot be changed.
> 
> In times such as this, I fear the future rather than memories of the past.
> 
> Yet, while recognising the past can influence the future, it's not the time to point fingers at others arguing, "It's all your fault", then, " No, it's yours", even if it was or whatever.
> 
> It achieves nothing while the 'country' further sleepwalks into a dark and potentially very disturbing place......
> 
> On FB there was a rant from someone regarding the Coalition. I argued by saying, by using his logic perhaps he should consider never voting Labour again over Iraq. Blair and Clegg are no longer, and never will be leaders of their respective parties ever again.
> 
> I don't like the Lib Dems, but it angers me it is them, with the Greens who are leading the campaign against Brexit and not the Labour Party in England.
> 
> If Labour continues to refuse to change stance, the Lib Dems, Greens and other pro-EU parties need to unite, even temporarily, in order not to split the remain vote. We saw what happened in the Euro elections allowing Farage to dominate when the collective anti-Brexit votes were higher, even in some 'Leave' voting areas.
> 
> But dwelling on the memories of an awful coalition government of nine years ago will probably prevent that from ever happening, while the UK edges even further to the extreme far right.
> 
> Better still, Labour urgently needs to adopt a strong pro-EU agenda, but I've lost all hope of that happening under their present hierarchy.
> 
> Oh yes, this from Change UK is hilarious isn't it?.......
> 
> View attachment 407856


Cheers KK.

No the past can't be changed, but political parties can change their destructive ideologies & under Corbyn labour has. There would have been no Iraq war or austerity (or brexit? ) if all politicians had voted the same way Corbyn did. If they had then tens of thousands of people (here & in Iraq) would not have died. Tens of thousands more would not have been displaced. And millions of others would not be suffering now. Yet Corbyn is unforgivable for his dithering on brexit & many claim they have abandoned labour forever because of it. This is what makes no sense to me KK, not the tactical voting for the lib dems by remainers - I understand that .



KittenKong said:


> Noushka:
> View attachment 407857
> 
> 
> You're right, but it appears Corbyn listens to them and not the majority of MPs. How many MPs do they have?!
> 
> I have never met a Brexit supporter who would vote for Corbyn, usually through unrelated issues such as what they've read about him in their papers. They're more likely to back Farage, or Johnson led Tories even if they 'traditionally' voted Labour before.
> 
> My MP isn't on the list even if her leaflets bleat on about, "Respecting the referendum result". To be fair on her she probably didn't get to write them. She voted against May's deal on all three occasions too.
> 
> Our former Labour MP who retired in 2017 was a brilliant bloke, and strongly anti-Brexit. He could see the referendum for what it was, a right-wing power grab.
> 
> Just a shame some other Labour Party members don't see it that way.


247 seats to the tories 312. They simply haven't had enough votes to stop no deal, and, correct me if I'm wrong, that is because that handful of labour MPs keep voting with tories to block the move.

Totally relate to your next sentence. I live in an ex pit village - how soon they have forgotten the damage the tories did to us (are STILL doing to us!). The power of the media, hey? Top critical thinkers like Chomsky warned the media & neoliberals would use their might to undermine & and delegitimise Corbyns leadership because (unlike that fake Farage et al) he is a genuine anti elitist. And boy have they done a great job.

I wish my MP hadn't signed that letter - I am fuming. He must know brexit will further cripple our already poor area.

Its been clear for a long time that brexit was a right wing power grab. I don't think anyone could fail to see how its panning out now. Disaster capitalism will affect most of those who want brexit - they will suffer too.



AlexPed2393 said:


> I've walked into another echo chamber it seems





kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious





Calvine said:


> Hahahaha, yes indeed, right on! @AlexPed2393 has a way with words sometimes, eh!


@AlexPed2393 Obviously you're referring to the people who STILL think brexit is a good idea?


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Cheers KK.
> 
> No the past can't be changed, but political parties can change their destructive ideologies & under Corbyn labour has. There would have been no Iraq war or austerity (or brexit? ) if all politicians had voted the same way Corbyn did. If they had then tens of thousands of people (here & in Iraq) would not have died. Tens of thousands more would not have been displaced. And millions of others would not be suffering now. Yet Corbyn is unforgivable for his dithering on brexit & many claim they have abandoned labour forever because of it. This is what makes no sense to me KK, not the tactical voting for the lib dems by remainers - I understand that .
> 
> 247 seats to the tories 312. They simply haven't had enough votes to stop no deal, and, correct me if I'm wrong, that is because that handful of labour MPs keep voting with tories to block the move.
> 
> Totally relate to your next sentence. I live in an ex pit village - how soon they have forgotten the damage the tories did to us (are STILL doing to us!). The power of the media, hey? Top critical thinkers like Chomsky warned the media & neoliberals would use their might to undermine & and delegitimise Corbyns leadership because (unlike that fake Farage et al) he is a genuine anti elitist. And boy have they done a great job.
> 
> I wish my MP hadn't signed that letter - I am fuming. He must know brexit will further cripple our already poor area.
> 
> Its been clear for a long time that brexit was a right wing power grab. I don't think anyone could fail to see how its panning out now. Disaster capitalism will affect most of those who want brexit - they will suffer too.
> 
> @AlexPed2393 Obviously you're referring to the people who STILL think brexit is a good idea?


I do understand why people might be very bitter about Labour's total lack of clarity is such important moment.

Party that cares about the people, NHS, environment has only one choice on Brexit.

Party that wants to prevent Britain linking arms with the likes of Trump and Putin has only one stand on Brexit.

Corbyn whipped his party to vote for Article 50 - don't tell me he believed in what was on the buses!!!
It was just his tactics to get to general election he hoped to win and he lost.

Cameron took unforgivable gamble.

Corbyn IMO did too and took whatever to hold on to his leadership and perspective to become next PM.

It left Labour splintered, unable to capitalise on Tories's split!!!

Not just Corbyn's fault.

Feuding fractions in Labour care more about getting their man to lead than winning GE.

They rather put Ed in front ( unelectable) instead of David ( electable).

I am so disappointed in Labour and I quite a lefty.

I would vote Green or Lib Dem or if in Scotland SNP but Labour and my OH and basically most of my friends feel like that.

Very bitter about ineffective Labour.

Bitter about Corbyn not allowing to vote for Article 50 according to their conscience or constituency.

Brexit throws us towards USA and if Corbyn was against Iraq war then he should remember why we took part in it. Because USA is our BFF? 
And he is pushing us there???

Corbyn is the scarecrow Tories use to put off undecided votes who after all make the difference.

Has too much history.

We need someone like Keir to lead Labour or like Lib Dems they will pay for generation for mishandling Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Cheers KK.
> 
> No the past can't be changed, but political parties can change their destructive ideologies & under Corbyn labour has. There would have been no Iraq war or austerity (or brexit? ) if all politicians had voted the same way Corbyn did. If they had then tens of thousands of people (here & in Iraq) would not have died. Tens of thousands more would not have been displaced. And millions of others would not be suffering now. Yet Corbyn is unforgivable for his dithering on brexit & many claim they have abandoned labour forever because of it. This is what makes no sense to me KK, not the tactical voting for the lib dems by remainers - I understand that .
> 
> 247 seats to the tories 312. They simply haven't had enough votes to stop no deal, and, correct me if I'm wrong, that is because that handful of labour MPs keep voting with tories to block the move.


Had Corbyn been Labour leader in the '90s Labour would never have been in government. It would have been left to the Conservative PM to assist George W Bush in his Iraq War. Even if he had been PM and refused to assist Bush do you think the media would have let him get away with it? I stand by my belief they would have destroyed Blair to the point of him losing the 2005 GE had he done so. Doesn't make it right of course but the media make and break people. They have the upper hand and people follow what they say like sheep.

Brexit supporters who might have voted Labour won't vote for him through what they've read about him in their papers. Now, he's also losing support from Remainers through his continued support for Brexit.

Yes, Corbyn is unforgivable for dithering over Brexit. I consider my EU citizenship and my FoM as a right. Like the Tories and Farage, he has no right to support the ending of my rights on a basis of a corrupt and barely legal referendum. He's refusing to budge on his stance despite many in the party belatedly, perhaps, making the right noises. He has lost our trust and respect.

And this obsession over getting a deal. The EU have made it perfectly clear to Theresa May and her successor it is not up for further negotiation. This will equally apply to Corbyn and Labour too.

Sorry, but until Corbyn stands down, which he'll probably have to after the next GE Labour will not get my vote until they adopt a clear revoke A50 agenda.

As for the Lib Dems, no I don't and never will support them, but I support them for doing what Labour should be doing and would welcome a pro remain alliance with the Greens, at least until the nightmare is over.

I'm definitely SNP nowadays. If only I was 60miles further North.....

On my way to an anti Brexit protest in a leave area which will be interesting. Wonder what they'll think of these!


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-fire-questions-hustings-late-night-argument


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-fire-questions-hustings-late-night-argument


No one seems to have considered that it is her with a problem and he is acting in the most gentlemanly of ways by protecting her privacy. 
Unlikely I know, but he'd be enough to push anyone over the edge, so possible


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-fire-questions-hustings-late-night-argument


Couple has row: read all about it.


----------



## grumpy goby

It’s sad that there are calls from certain Tory mouthpieces to expose and harass the couple who called the police (upon hearing “get off me” and “get out of my flat”, and after they tried to contact them themselves to no avail before calling the police)


I hope this doesn’t put people off from reporting suspected DV incidents in a world where 2 women each week die at the hands of the partners we need people to continue to report these things, it can save lives.
We don’t know what was going on behind those doors, we don’t know if Boris is an abuser, victim or misunderstood. What we do know is there was some kind of altercation which sounded alarming to outside witnesses and I hope that the public continue to act on instinct in those cases, to trigger a welfare check.


----------



## kimthecat

@grumpy goby Excellent post .


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> 2 women each week die at the hands of the partners


Men are increasingly becoming victims too of domestic violence:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47252756


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Men are increasingly becoming victims too of domestic violence:
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47252756


Yes, Good point . Absolutely .


----------



## KittenKong

Three years since Farage's "Independence Day"....
















We couldn't leave out the alternative Laurel and Hardy duo.


----------



## grumpy goby

Calvine said:


> Men are increasingly becoming victims too of domestic violence:
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47252756


I don't disagree, but doesn't change the overall point of my post - I hope people aren't put off from reporting violent sounding domestic altercations, regardless of political alignment.


----------



## Calvine

grumpy goby said:


> I don't disagree, but doesn't change the overall point of my post


 I didn't suggest that it did; I simply thought it might be an interesting addition to the thread, and nothing to do with politics.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Mr Johnson is possibly not a very nice guy...
Yes, resemblance to Trump is uncanny.

Our new PM... if Tories wish for it...

That might be a big blow to them but bigger to us all.

Not a fan of Corbyn but in comparison he is much better choice!


----------



## Satori

Go BoJo !


----------



## rona

Satori said:


> Go BoJo !


I have to agree.

Isn't Hunt coming over as a nasty vicious little man?


----------



## kimthecat

What will happen when he has to meet world leaders or the EU? Will he just not turn up?

*Jeremy Hunt*‏Verified account @*Jeremy_Hunt* 6h6 hours ago

Tonight I was meant to be debating Boris Johnson on Sky, answering questions about our plans for Britain. Sadly, Boris has pulled out - which I don't believe is fair on you, the public. So from 8pm I will be answering as many of your questions as poss - tweet me using #*BoJoNoShow*


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> What will happen when he has to meet world leaders or the EU? Will he just not turn up?
> 
> *Jeremy Hunt*‏Verified account @*Jeremy_Hunt* 6h6 hours ago
> 
> Tonight I was meant to be debating Boris Johnson on Sky, answering questions about our plans for Britain. Sadly, Boris has pulled out - which I don't believe is fair on you, the public. So from 8pm I will be answering as many of your questions as poss - tweet me using #*BoJoNoShow*


Yep, just goes to prove my point


----------



## KittenKong

Total eclipse of _The Sun :Hilarious








_


----------



## Snoringbear

Don't worry leavers, although Vauxhall's decision to keep production in the UK apparently is based on Brexit, it's all down to the diesel issue, so you don't need to worry about your vote destroying both jobs and industry in the UK. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48790657


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> Don't worry leavers, although Vauxhall's decision to keep production in the UK apparently is based on Brexit, it's all down to the diesel issue, so you don't need to worry about your vote destroying both jobs and industry in the UK. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48790657


So,,,,,,let me get this right. A French company is trying to bribe us, or is that threaten us?


----------



## Snoringbear

rona said:


> So,,,,,,let me get this right. A French company is trying to bribe us, or is that threaten us?


No. They're just going to take their business out of the UK, because it no longer profitable thanks to the Brexit vote. No bribes or threats, just business sense. But, as a leaver, it's much easier to blame someone else for this rather than yourself.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> No. They're just going to take their business out of the UK, because it no longer profitable thanks to the Brexit vote. No bribes or threats, just business sense. But, as a leaver, it's much easier to blame someone else for this rather than yourself.


Funny that they bring this up now that we are getting a new possibly tougher PM. 
Before it was because of diesel not selling any more. Now which one is it I wonder....................


----------



## Snoringbear

Just to add, please don’t go full leaver and say something about the war. Never go full leaver.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> Just to add, please don't go full leaver and say something about the war. Never go full leaver.


I never have and never will. 
I'm proud of voting out. It's highlighted just what is wrong with politics and hopefully engaged more people to insist on change.


----------



## Snoringbear

While it’s highlighted things are wrong with politics, it’s also shown that people don’t know where to place the blame.


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> dd, please don't go full leaver and say something about the war. Never go full leaver.


Wow! What a comical guy you are. You can say what you like: it is always the ''full remainers'' on here who feel the need to come out with snidey comments (with the exception of a couple). You should stick to polishing the Porsche - as a comedian you're not up to scratch.


----------



## Snoringbear

Looks like that joke took a while to sink in.


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> Looks like that joke took a while to sink in.


 No . . . : A.) I spend little time on this forum and B.) I didn't find it even remotely funny. (I am assuming your post was directed at me.)
Reading your posts, you really do think you are intellectually superior to anyone who voted leave, don't you?


----------



## Snoringbear

It wasn’t directed at you. I’m not sure why you think that. Regarding intelligence, 49% are going to below the national average. You may well be part of the other 3%


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Funny that they bring this up now that we are getting a new possibly tougher PM......


That's what they said when Theresa May took over, "The new Iron Lady" the Daily Mail called her:Hilarious.

We'll see how 'tough' Boris or Jeremy will be when they try to negotiate a new Brexit deal with the EU!


----------



## Snoringbear

My jokes aren’t going to get any better btw.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> It wasn't directed at you. I'm not sure why you think that. Regarding intelligence, 49% are going to below the national average. You may well be part of the other 3%


I think I may be in the 49% but I'm happy and I know right from wrong. Some others on here certainly do not.



KittenKong said:


> That's what they said when Theresa May took over, "The new Iron Lady" the Daily Mail called her:Hilarious.
> 
> We'll see how 'tough' Boris or Jeremy will be when they try to negotiate a new Brexit deal with the EU!


Eh, I'm talking about the EU not the papers, anyway, both candidates are backing out and fudging the leave question, like their predecessor, they don't want to leave really.


----------



## Snoringbear

The EU have made it abundantly clear that there is no room for renegotiation. Doesn't seem to have sinked in for the UK government and leavers. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...otiation-irish-back-stop-border-a8975666.html


----------



## Snoringbear

This site has been tracking job losses due to Brexit. Current total as of a week ago is 243, 363. Are leave voters proud of voting for Brexit having put nearly a quarter of a million people out of work and the effect on their families? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...R9T87ZmnSdAEPCzp5ljlNYoUNdxJiJqQdBm7b/pubhtml


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> The EU have made it abundantly clear that there is no room for renegotiation. Doesn't seem to have sinked in for the UK government and leavers. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...otiation-irish-back-stop-border-a8975666.html


One of the reasons we need someone to take us out. The remainers are still hoping for a deal that isn't there.

Jobs are probably being lost because of uncertainty, if we'd got out when we should, the worst would probably be over and we'd be on the up again. This is my belief and no amount of politically motivated protectionism will change my mind.


----------



## rona

Snoringbear said:


> This site has been tracking job losses due to Brexit. Current total as of a week ago is 243, 363. Are leave voters proud of voting for Brexit having put nearly a quarter of a million people out of work and the effect on their families? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...R9T87ZmnSdAEPCzp5ljlNYoUNdxJiJqQdBm7b/pubhtml


Love this source


----------



## Snoringbear

rona said:


> One of the reasons we need someone to take us out. The remainers are still hoping for a deal that isn't there.
> 
> Jobs are probably being lost because of uncertainty, if we'd got out when we should, the worst would probably be over and we'd be on the up again. This is my belief and no amount of politically motivated protectionism will change my mind.


Yep, caused by Brexit voters and their desire to take us out of the single market. If things had happened quicker they'd be gone already. Entirely the fault of leave voters.


----------



## Snoringbear

rona said:


> Love this source


On Facebook, page called Brexit Job Losses. The metrics used to calculate the figures are explained on there. But feel free to discard them, whatever makes your conscious feel better.


----------



## Snoringbear

It’s quite amazing how Brexit voters will blame absolutely anything else other than themselves.


----------



## Calvine

Snoringbear said:


> It wasn't directed at you


 In that case you should tag the person at whom it was directed otherwise no-one knows; and I think that because it directly followed a post of mine with no indication to the contrary.


----------



## rona

Well this won't happen. Be like turkeys voting for Xmas 
https://petition.parliament.uk/peti...UKo0-yDZwsrxUetiIK_cXK9IRs-L0uKBLJOu0D0XWX3R4


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> One of the reasons we need someone to take us out. The remainers are still hoping for a deal that isn't there.
> 
> Jobs are probably being lost because of uncertainty, if we'd got out when we should, the worst would probably be over and we'd be on the up again. This is my belief and no amount of politically motivated protectionism will change my mind.


Most Remainers want Brexit stopped with Article 50 revoked. They would have backed Theresa May's deal otherwise.

The two Tory leadership candidates, (as indeed does Jeremy Corbyn), believe they can negotiate a "Better" Brexit deal with the EU, even threatening to withhold the previously agreed divorce settlement in order to achieve one.

Boris Johnson is most certainly a Brexit supporter, even, should you argue that Jeremy Hunt is not.

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg predicted it could take 50 years to recover. Now Jeremy Hunt tells businesses to embrace their collapse should a no deal result in that.

So much for the party of business. Even Thatcher recognised the importance the single market was for business.

Fine for someone like him to come out with a statement like this, seeing he'll never experience hardship and poverty.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Most Remainers want Brexit stopped with Article 50 revoked


Yep I know and that's why we are in the mess we are in. They expect to go against democracy. A very very dangerous route


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Most Remainers want Brexit stopped with Article 50 revoked. They would have backed Theresa May's deal otherwise.
> 
> The two Tory leadership candidates, (as indeed does Jeremy Corbyn), believe they can negotiate a "Better" Brexit deal with the EU, even threatening to withhold the previously agreed divorce settlement in order to achieve one.
> 
> Boris Johnson is most certainly a Brexit supporter, even, should you argue that Jeremy Hunt is not.
> 
> Even Jacob Rees-Mogg predicted it could take 50 years to recover. Now Jeremy Hunt tells businesses to embrace their collapse should a no deal result in that.
> 
> So much for the party of business. Even Thatcher recognised the importance the single market was for business.
> 
> Fine for someone like him to come out with a statement like this, seeing he'll never experience hardship and poverty.


And yet you'd be happy with more job losses by getting The Sun closed down?


----------



## KittenKong

Millie D:







If it was down to me I'd prefer the entire Murdoch empire to collapse.

Now, Farage launches his own 'Sun' style paper and it's free.

Ann Widdecombe on Page 3 too.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Anything changed in brexit land or is it all the same stuff? Seems we are stuck in limbo for a new PM


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 408963


OMG you are just so predictable and so funny to boot


----------



## AlexPed2393

rona said:


> OMG you are just so predictable and so funny to boot


Another comparison to Nazi germany?? NEVER


----------



## Snoringbear

Apparently Jeremy Hunt will be pledging £6Billion to fishing and farming to bail them out in case of no deal Brexit. Turkeys and Christmas again.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...s/104945/jeremy-hunt-vows-£6bn-war-chest-help


----------



## Snoringbear

This has to be one of the most miserably pathetic and childish things I've seen. What a great example they've set for "global Britain". If anyone turned up on the first day of work for me and did that, the only thing they'd turned around and looked at would be the door out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48839829


----------



## Snoringbear

One of many sites tracking Brexit job losses. 
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/brexit-index/


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> OMG you are just so predictable and so funny to boot


Bet you wouldn't be laughing if any of the none "British" turned their backs on, 'God Save the Queen' on a visit to the UK.

This disrespect doesn't show "Global Britain" in a positive light does it?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Snoringbear said:


> One of many sites tracking Brexit job losses.
> https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/brexit-index/


Your source for the job losses due to Brexit includes 1300 employees of Jamie Oliver restaurants - I didn't know this was due to Brexit?

Were the closures not due to overpriced and average food, bad service and it plain just going out of fashion. Foodies are a bit snobby like that, aren't they?


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Bet you wouldn't be laughing if any of the none "British" turned their backs on, 'God Save the Queen' on a visit to the UK.
> 
> This disrespect doesn't show "Global Britain" in a positive light does it?


not quite the same KK, the MEP's are disrespecting a corporation, not individual countries anthem


----------



## AlexPed2393

Love this quote from the new head of the EU....


“My goal is the United States of Europe, based on the model of the federal states of Switzerland, Germany or the US,” she said in 2011. 

In February, Mrs von der Leyen, who was born in Brussels while her father was a senior EU civil servant, said the EU needed to pool defence research funding because of “Brexit and the distanced attitude of the US president.”

“This leads to the idea of a ‘Euro army’. This would be challenging but necessary. Europe must be able to act independently where it needs to,” she said in November last year.


She sounds like a boat load of fun


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> not quite the same KK, the MEP's are disrespecting a corporation, not individual countries anthem


So, you are justifying the this are you? Unbelievable!

I wouldn't even think most pro Brexit Tory MEPs would have condoned this behaviour


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Were the closures not due to overpriced and average food, bad service and it plain just going out of fashion. Foodies are a bit snobby like that, aren't they?


 Correct! My son reckons there was one a five minute walk from where he worked and he tried it once: ''overpriced and less than average'' was his verdict.


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Jamie Oliver restaurants... Were the closures not due to overpriced and average food, bad service and it plain just going out of fashion. Foodies are a bit snobby like that, aren't they?


Not the case for our local one - lovely staff, seriously amazing food at a reasonable price, and pretty popular. Really wish it was still there...


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> So, you are justifying the this are you? Unbelievable!
> 
> I wouldn't even think most pro Brexit Tory MEPs would have condoned this behaviour


I'm not condoning it, I'm saying the two instances only hold one similarity in that they did not face the anthem. One was to take over a country, a continent and then the world. The other is trying to leave the EU


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm not condoning it, I'm saying the two instances only hold one similarity in that they did not face the anthem. One was to take over a country, a continent and then the world. The other is trying to leave the EU


If they despise the EU so much why take their seats? Sinn Fein never occupy their seats in Parliament.

All they have done is to make the UK more of a divided laughing stock as it already. In contrast, the main opposition Lib Dems wore anti Brexit T-shirts!

How these contrasting impressions of the people of that little island who think they know it all and that the world owe's them a living through 'them' winning two World War's and one World Cup.

As I understand it many of the far-right parties across the EU have snubbed the Farage lot having reviewed their own EU policies. They now stand alone like the pathetic little Englanders they are.


----------



## KittenKong

Seems Iceland are now the latest food store to deny the existence of Scotland, rebranding their Scottish produced eggs as 'British'.

Sure that'll go down well in Scotland with their flag replaced by the Butcher's apron on the boxes....


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> If they despise the EU so much why take their seats? Sinn Fein never occupy their seats in Parliament.
> 
> All they have done is to make the UK more of a divided laughing stock as it already. In contrast, the main opposition Lib Dems wore anti Brexit T-shirts!
> 
> How these contrasting impressions of the people of that little island who think they know it all and that the world owe's them a living through 'them' winning two World War's and one World Cup.
> 
> As I understand it many of the far-right parties across the EU have snubbed the Farage lot having reviewed their own EU policies. They now stand alone like the pathetic little Englanders they are.


You clearly didn't watch the footage after the crazy old lady Widdicombe made a speech. A lot and I mean A LOT of that hall applauded her.

The Lib dems looked childish having a couple of people wearing 'bollocks to brexit' T-shirts.

What the EU are doing to Switzerland is a prime example of why I want us to leave the EU and the dominance of Germany and France for Presidential roles is becoming more and more apparent, they are looking to put Christine Lagarde who has been committed of FRAUD as head of the European Central Bank


----------



## AlexPed2393

AlexPed2393 said:


> What the EU are doing to Switzerland is a prime example of why I want us to leave the EU and the dominance of Germany and France for Presidential roles is becoming more and more apparent, they are looking to put Christine Lagarde who has been committed of FRAUD as head of the European Central Bank


@KittenKong how have you not seen this??


----------



## mrs phas

Anyone else listen to Anne's maiden speech?
Whatever you think of her, or the content of her speech, I'm pretty sure the other MEP's have never come across such an indomitable force 
Nigel's face throughout just sums him up
Smirking oik that he is


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> In contrast, the main opposition Lib Dems wore anti Brexit T-shirts!
> 
> .


What ? Bollocks to Brexit . Well , that's really mature!
But , yeah , I don't agree with what UKIP did .

Anne is a force to be reckoned with . Not seen her maiden speech .

ETA seen a bit on twitter. :Woot


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> What ? Bollocks to Brexit . Well , that's really mature!
> But , yeah , I don't agree with what UKIP did .
> 
> Anne is a force to be reckoned with . Not seen her maiden speech .


Can't say I'm a fan of Bollocks To Brexit to be truthful, but both "Tribes" revealed to the rest of the world how utterly stupid the UK looks to others as a grossly divided nation.

Widdecombe is an evil wicked witch who makes even Theresa May seem reasonable in comparison. She's a very bitter and twisted woman.

Only nine years ago we had a Conservative Prime Minister who supported Gay Marriage. Just a few short years we have Widdecombe back in the limelight supporting Gay conversation therapy.

Call that progress anyone?


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> Anyone else listen to Anne's maiden speech?
> Whatever you think of her, or the content of her speech, I'm pretty sure the other MEP's have never come across such an indomitable force


Yeah, I guess people once said that about Adolf Hitler and similar.....


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Yeah, I guess people once said that about Adolf Hitler and similar.....


you really are a totally reprehensible creature
having an opinion is one thing, like A-holes, everyone has got one
but
if thats the zenith of yours, i certainly hope im not around to hear/read/see the nadir


----------



## cheekyscrip

mrs phas said:


> you really are a totally reprehensible creature
> having an opinion is one thing, like A-holes, everyone has got one
> but
> if thats the zenith of yours, i certainly hope im not around to hear/read/see the nadir


Nadir is rude, offensive behaviour of our MEP , stupidity- as they are our allies, our neighbours and our clients.

That is nadir and I hold responsible all who voted for Farage and his ilk.

So much for nation of gentlemen, English courtesy and fair play.

Nadir indeed. Diplomats without an ounce of diplomacy.


----------



## Snoringbear

Another great Brexit win https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/canada-is-refusing-to-roll-over-its-eu-trade-agreement-for


----------



## Snoringbear

I’d guess that’s another example of another foreign country blackmailing us if you’re a leave voter.


----------



## Snoringbear

I’m quite interested in hearing leave voters opinions on why they voted to leave. I’m not interested in buzzwords like “taking back control” etc. Just real tangible facts about how leaving the EU will improve our lives.


----------



## Snoringbear

Another company moves to Europe after Brexit. I'm sure leave voters will create some reasons to deflect things. https://www.expressandstar.com/news...NyTZp9IKx1Qd8vlKGVfVF-A8bxh-LajckovgXbEAY7XRs


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> you really are a totally reprehensible creature
> having an opinion is one thing, like A-holes, everyone has got one
> but
> if thats the zenith of yours, i certainly hope im not around to hear/read/see the nadir


Dear me, abuse for condemning the vile Widdecombe? Must I embrace her just because you do :Hilarious.

Well, I ask you. She compares leaving the EU to slaves escaping their capture. To me, the thought of being entrapped within an island, having lost my automatic right to live and work across 30 other countries to be governed by people like this vile monster who supports gay people undergoing conversion therapy a thing of nightmares. Incidentally, I'm not gay, but do have friends who are.

I thought we were past all that but dear old Blighty must look to its past.

Oh yes, look at this. If you condone this sort of thing thing you cannot be an animal lover...


----------



## AlexPed2393

AlexPed2393 said:


> What the EU are doing to Switzerland is a prime example of why I want us to leave the EU and the dominance of Germany and France for Presidential roles is becoming more and more apparent, they are looking to put Christine Lagarde who has been committed of FRAUD as head of the European Central Bank


I'm still waiting for a someone that is pro EU to say that this is a good idea


----------



## KittenKong

Spotted on Facebook this morning:

I spend a lot of time in the EU. Often twice monthly and my wife even more so for work. We’re proud to have a have a son in his early 20s who has already spent more than 10% of his entire life living and studying in France and Germany. If it wasn’t for frail elderly family then Britain wouldn’t see us for dust. That and the fact that people who do f**k all with their lives and go nowhere stole our future freedom of movement.

So, it came as a total shock to be treated as a citizen of a third country by French police on British soil when using the channel tunnel last Sunday.

We drove through British passport control and were then waived into British security where the car was swabbed for explosives. Fine. We went through French passport control in Britain (a desk previously empty) and exchanged pleasantries in French and then we were waived on. Then ahead were five French customs officers with guns who spoke to us only in French (fine) and thoroughly examined the contents of the car while demanding I stay a distance from the car. We were asked how much cash we were carrying - something of no concern between EU state members but a concern to people arriving from outside the EU. We are still in the EU.

We were treated as criminals and shown no apology when they naturally found nothing.

We were in a Volvo XC60. Hardly the brash bling transport of gangsters. The car had a Swiss motorway tax vignette in the windscreen plus a French city Crit’Air sticker, plus a French motorway toll tag. We were clearly European natives. We were treated with hostility and missed our assigned crossing as a result.

And do you know who I hate for this? Not the French customs officials but the feral, knuckle-dragging, artless scum who do nothing with their lives and who have this bizarre idea that Britain is somehow superior when it’s anything but that. The people who destroyed Britain. The people who made us an international laughing stock. The people who voted leave.

They caused this.

We've tried being nice and saying we hate the the conmen who conned them and not the conned but the conned simply double down on their position. We are wasting our time even trying to explain the truth to these people.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm still waiting for a someone that is pro-EU to say that this is a good idea


What happens between Switzerland and the EU is their business. Don't forget, they have a deal with the EU 'our' dear politicians, be it May, Johnson, Hunt or Corbyn wish to make on leaving the EU as well. The EU is the bigger partner than a small spot of land like Switzerland and an island like the UK. Even Norway and Iceland as other examples, have to comply with the rules such as FoM etc.

The problem with the UK is their stupidity in believing the world still owes them a living, that they hold all the cards and expect others to toe the line as if the Empire is still up and running.

So, yes, I think it is a good idea. The EU have been far too soft on the UK with all the concessions they gave them, yet they still insult them and are going to leave the bloc anyway.

Schengen and the Euro- bring it on as far as I'm concerned. 'British' people, who still can't accept metrication, are frightened of change.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Spotted on Facebook this morning:
> 
> I spend a lot of time in the EU. Often twice monthly and my wife even more so for work. We're proud to have a have a son in his early 20s who has already spent more than 10% of his entire life living and studying in France and Germany. If it wasn't for frail elderly family then Britain wouldn't see us for dust. That and the fact that people who do f**k all with their lives and go nowhere stole our future freedom of movement.
> 
> So, it came as a total shock to be treated as a citizen of a third country by French police on British soil when using the channel tunnel last Sunday.
> 
> We drove through British passport control and were then waived into British security where the car was swabbed for explosives. Fine. We went through French passport control in Britain (a desk previously empty) and exchanged pleasantries in French and then we were waived on. Then ahead were five French customs officers with guns who spoke to us only in French (fine) and thoroughly examined the contents of the car while demanding I stay a distance from the car. We were asked how much cash we were carrying - something of no concern between EU state members but a concern to people arriving from outside the EU. We are still in the EU.
> 
> We were treated as criminals and shown no apology when they naturally found nothing.
> 
> We were in a Volvo XC60. Hardly the brash bling transport of gangsters. The car had a Swiss motorway tax vignette in the windscreen plus a French city Crit'Air sticker, plus a French motorway toll tag. We were clearly European natives. We were treated with hostility and missed our assigned crossing as a result.
> 
> And do you know who I hate for this? Not the French customs officials but the feral, knuckle-dragging, artless scum who do nothing with their lives and who have this bizarre idea that Britain is somehow superior when it's anything but that. The people who destroyed Britain. The people who made us an international laughing stock. The people who voted leave.
> 
> They caused this.
> 
> We've tried being nice and saying we hate the the conmen who conned them and not the conned but the conned simply double down on their position. We are wasting our time even trying to explain the truth to these people.


I'm glad that they personally know the millions of people who voted to leave


----------



## Guest

I never got to vote in the Referendum because I have been living in the Netherlands since 1999 and decided to become a Dutch citizen in 2010. I love it over here in the Netherlands.

What a mess the UK Politicians have got themselves into over this. The UK was offered a deal and the politicians rejected it, it doesn't make sense as the Politicians wanted a deal and got given one.

The European Union was always going to look after its own interests first and the remaining countries within it and the citizens living in the remaining countries. The European Leaders have been clear the deal won't be reopened as this is what is on offer. It wasn't the European Union's leaders faults that the UK politicians and leaders had no clear plan for this. It is dangerously close to the October deadline and I feel that UK politicians have not taken this seriously as they got granted an extension and went on holiday. The Politicians can vote to stop no deal happening in the UK but it won't stop no deal from happening. It is the UK that voted to leave not the European Union voting to throw the UK out.


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Dear me, abuse for condemning the vile Widdecombe? Must I embrace her just because you do :Hilarious.


Perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly where I 'embrace' her?
One, if one is truly unbiased, can listen to an orator and admire their fire, without having to agree with their policies or political leaning
I see an elderly lady, standing in an arena, similar to one she left many years ago, giving 'them' , in her parlance, what for.
That doesn't mean I agree with her, in fact I find her analogy to slavery, as misguided and abhorrent as your analogy to Hitler.

I really could care less that you were inconvenienced on your trip, I'm old enough to remember when that was an everyday occurrence, both ways, where your duty free was a minute amount and, yes, your cash money was limited, so its nothing new



> Incidentally, I'm not gay, but do have friends who are.


:Facepalm:Facepalm:Banghead:Banghead
So that makes you qualified to know just how her petty little religious intolerance affects them? Most people who are lgbt+ couldn't give a stuff, they just get on with their lives, they know their history and how far they have come, she is of little consequence, there's always been and always will be, people like her
Talk about a time trip back to 70's attitude though
"I'm not gay, but have friends who are":Hilarious:Hilarious

I honestly cannot believe you do not realise how risible your comments are, its like reading the rantings of a two year old, in a tantrum, stamping their foot and, screaming its not fair

Well get over yourself, life isn't, we all have to put up with it, cos the alternate isn't great

(BTW, just so you don't chuck voting my way, amongst all your other assumptions, I voted remain)


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> What happens between Switzerland and the EU is their business. Don't forget, they have a deal with the EU 'our' dear politicians, be it May, Johnson, Hunt or Corbyn wish to make on leaving the EU as well. The EU is the bigger partner than a small spot of land like Switzerland and an island like the UK. Even Norway and Iceland as other examples, have to comply with the rules such as FoM etc.


Are you saying that Switzerland is insignificant and that we shouldn't take note of how the EU are dealing with them? They provide the EU with 10% of their energy, 40% of the EU's energy flows through Switzerland, they are the hydroelectric powerhouse of the alps


----------



## AlexPed2393

Nicked this from a publication

"
And yet, one point is easily overlooked. The UK and Switzerland already have the two strongest financial industries in Europe. If you take the Global Financial Centres Index, for example, a broad-based measure of how cities rank on the significance of their finance sectors, then London comes in at second place, just behind New York, while Zurich ranks in eighth place, sandwiched between Toronto and Beijing.

The highest-placed EU centre is Frankfurt in tenth spot. The next highest EU centre is Paris, at 27th, only one place above Geneva at 28th. In truth, Switzerland by itself is at least as important in global finance as the whole of the EU once you take London out of the mix.
"

@KittenKong


----------



## Elles

Shame it’s the French the other side of the Chunnel and not the Dutch. The Dutch are for more sensible and less xenophobic than the French.


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...uild-electric-xj-car-at-castle-bromwich-plant

Jaguar 
will build an electric version of its Jaguar XJ saloon at its Castle Bromwich factory, in a boost to the embattled automotive industry.

Britain's largest carmaker will invest hundreds of millions of pounds in the plant on the outskirts of Birmingham, safeguarding the jobs of 2,500 people.

The last of the current model of the XJ will roll off the lines on Friday before the company switches production to the new model over the summer. JLR, which is owned by India's Tata, had previously pledged to create electric versions of all of its models by 2020.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Shame it's the French the other side of the Chunnel and not the Dutch. The Dutch are for more sensible and less *xenophobic than the French*.


:Woot:Jawdrop if is xenophobic it's UK, that's one of the reasons we wouldn't be leaving the EU.


----------



## Elles

If the Dutch were the other side of the Chunnel we probably wouldn’t leave lol. OTOH maybe it’s being the other side of the Chunnel that made the French so miserable. :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> I honestly cannot believe you do not realise how risible your comments are, its like reading the rantings of a two year old, in a tantrum, stamping their foot and, screaming its not fair
> 
> Well get over yourself, life isn't, we all have to put up with it, cos the alternate isn't great
> 
> (BTW, just so you don't chuck voting my way, amongst all your other assumptions, I voted remain)


My thoughts exactly about your post(s). It's obvious we are not going to see eye to eye so perhaps it's best I put you on ignore and you do the same and wish each other a happy life?


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> My thoughts exactly about your post(s). It's obvious we are not going to see eye to eye so perhaps it's best I put you on ignore and you do the same and wish each other a happy life?


put me on ignore by all means
but
you havent annoyed me nearly enough for me to do the same
in fact, i enjoy a free comedy show,


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> I never got to vote in the Referendum because I have been living in the Netherlands since 1999 and decided to become a Dutch citizen in 2010. I love it over here in the Netherlands.
> 
> What a mess the UK Politicians have got themselves into over this. The UK was offered a deal and the politicians rejected it, it doesn't make sense as the Politicians wanted a deal and got given one.
> 
> The European Union was always going to look after its own interests first and the remaining countries within it and the citizens living in the remaining countries. The European Leaders have been clear the deal won't be reopened as this is what is on offer. It wasn't the European Union's leaders faults that the UK politicians and leaders had no clear plan for this. It is dangerously close to the October deadline and I feel that UK politicians have not taken this seriously as they got granted an extension and went on holiday. The Politicians can vote to stop no deal happening in the UK but it won't stop no deal from happening. It is the UK that voted to leave not the European Union voting to throw the UK out.


They are several reasons why Theresa May's deal was unacceptable, or any Brexit deal that seeks to end our automatic right to live and work in 30 other countries. It only postpones the inevitable no deal for a few months. I'll leave it to the Brexit supporters to explain why it was unacceptable to them.

Politicians can vote to revoke Article 50 if they wanted to, but the idiots that make up the UK government, as indeed does the main opposition party, vow to get a "Deal" that will "please" everyone.

When will it get into their thick skulls that very few want a 'deal'?Personally, I won't accept anything less than Revoking Article 50. If/when Brexit happens it will only be the beginning of the campaign to rejoin.

The entire 'referendum' was a complete farce. 52% of those who voted does not represent 99% of the UK population, which is how the UK government and most in opposition see it.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...uild-electric-xj-car-at-castle-bromwich-plant
> 
> Jaguar
> will build an electric version of its Jaguar XJ saloon at its Castle Bromwich factory, in a boost to the embattled automotive industry.
> 
> Britain's largest carmaker will invest hundreds of millions of pounds in the plant on the outskirts of Birmingham, safeguarding the jobs of 2,500 people.
> 
> The last of the current model of the XJ will roll off the lines on Friday before the company switches production to the new model over the summer. JLR, which is owned by India's Tata, had previously pledged to create electric versions of all of its models by 2020.


Stop it Kim . . . how dare you be optimistic? :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Stop it Kim . . . how dare you be optimistic? :Hilarious


My bad !


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.change.org/p/vice-chancellor-david-eastwood-strip-ann-widdecombe-of-her-honorary-doctorate-from-the-university-of-birmingham?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_16018670_en-GB:v1&recruiter=29565858&recruited_by_id=4ba85150-e851-012f-6e86-4040acce234c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_abi&utm_term=d9cc7e5f981342f4b7c2b39f8cc79f3d


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> Perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly where I 'embrace' her?
> One, if one is truly unbiased, can listen to an orator and admire their fire, without having to agree with their policies or political leaning
> I see an elderly lady, standing in an arena, similar to one she left many years ago, giving 'them' , in her parlance, what for.
> That doesn't mean I agree with her, in fact I find her analogy to slavery, as misguided and abhorrent as your analogy to Hitler.
> 
> I really could care less that you were inconvenienced on your trip, I'm old enough to remember when that was an everyday occurrence, both ways, where your duty free was a minute amount and, yes, your cash money was limited, so its nothing new
> 
> :Facepalm:Facepalm:Banghead:Banghead
> So that makes you qualified to know just how her petty little religious intolerance affects them? Most people who are lgbt+ couldn't give a stuff, they just get on with their lives, they know their history and how far they have come, she is of little consequence, there's always been and always will be, people like her
> Talk about a time trip back to 70's attitude though
> "I'm not gay, but have friends who are":Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> I honestly cannot believe you do not realise how risible your comments are, its like reading the rantings of a two year old, in a tantrum, stamping their foot and, screaming its not fair
> 
> Well get over yourself, life isn't, we all have to put up with it, cos the alternate isn't great
> 
> (BTW, just so you don't chuck voting my way, amongst all your other assumptions, I voted remain)


Listening to an, " Orator and admiring their fire" is very similar to what others have said about Hitler, whether they agreed with him or not.

That does not suggest I compared Widdecombe to Hitler as a person, which you rapidly came to the conclusion I was saying, in much the same way I insinuated you agreed with her viewpoint.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Stop it Kim . . . how dare you be optimistic? :Hilarious


_Safeguarding _jobs is not optimistic. Hardly the promise of more jobs or, for that matter, nor a, "Not one job lost Brexit", as proposed by Corbyn.

Typical distraction for the people who are losing their jobs. I'm sure the future building of the Irish Wall will be seen as a Brexit dividend too.

Reminds me of the Spitting Image sketch of the News at Ten reports of multiple job losses during the Thatcher era, but all was well because a Paper Boy was recruited by a Newsagent!


----------



## Guest

Why do like to mention Hitler and the 2nd world war alot kittenkong? Over here the 2nd world war has never come up in conversations I have had with people nor has talking about dictators. It seems odd to keep comparing people in your country to these people and events in history.

We have such a laid back life style over here in the Netherlands and prefer not to have events like the second world war thrown in our faces all the time. It was a dark period in Europe's history but European Countries have moved on and have proved they can work together in peace without wars and don't need reminding all the time by the mistakes made in the past.

All the people I have spoken to don't think of the British any differently because of their referendum to leave the European Union than we did before and have no hard feelings towards the United Kingdom for wanting to do this but generally we (my partner, myself, my friends and work colleagues) do not talk about Brexit or events surrounding this in the UK. 

Regarding your feelings on the referendum results, these can be understood but I also I am very respectful towards those that voted leave but would prefer not to get entangled in the never ending arguing, differences in opinion and mind changing on the referendum results that the UK had and the impending Brexit (for this reason I am going to leave this thread and no longer participate in it).


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Listening to an, " Orator and admiring their fire" is very similar to what others have said about Hitler, whether they agreed with him or not.
> 
> That does not suggest I compared Widdecombe to Hitler as a person, which you rapidly came to the conclusion I was saying, in much the same way I insinuated you agreed with her viewpoint.


Didn't block me then? At least I was open and honest in the fact that I wasn't going to block you and the reason why
Obviously my posts just can't be ignored
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> Why do like to mention Hitler and the 2nd world war alot kittenkong? Over here the 2nd world war has never come up in conversations I have had with people nor has talking about dictators. It seems odd to keep comparing people in your country to these people and events in history.
> 
> We have such a laid back life style over here in the Netherlands and prefer not to have events like the second world war thrown in our faces all the time. It was a dark period in Europe's history but European Countries have moved on and have proved they can work together in peace without wars and don't need reminding all the time by the mistakes made in the past.
> 
> All the people I have spoken to don't think of the British any differently because of their referendum to leave the European Union than we did before and have no hard feelings towards the United Kingdom for wanting to do this but generally we (my partner, myself, my friends and work colleagues) do not talk about Brexit or events surrounding this in the UK.
> 
> Regarding your feelings on the referendum results, these can be understood but I also I am very respectful towards those that voted leave but would prefer not to get entangled in the never ending arguing, differences in opinion and mind changing on the referendum results that the UK had and the impending Brexit (for this reason I am going to leave this thread and no longer participate in it).


Well, that's your prerogative. "Respect" the referendum result by all means. Just don't ask me to respect a vote based on nationalism, jingoism and lies such as £350m for the NHS on the side of a bus.

I resented your post quite frankly. It isn't yourself who'll be losing your automatic right to live and work across 30 countries plus your citizenship.

Don't tell me to embrace the loss of mine.

The content of the post is strongly reminiscent of someone who used to post here. SWC?


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Well, that's your prerogative. "Respect" the referendum result by all means. Just don't ask me to respect a vote based on nationalism, jingoism and lies such as £350m for the NHS on the side of a bus.
> 
> I resented your post quite frankly. It isn't yourself who'll be losing your automatic right to live and work across 30 countries plus your citizenship.
> 
> Don't tell me to embrace the loss of mine.


So democracy has no place in your world?
Whether we like it or not, the majority, yes 4%difference equals a majority) voted leave, and, unless someone is brave enough to invoke article 50, leave, with or without a deal, is what will happen
If you really don't like that thought, then you could always do what others have done
Look far enough in your family tree, find a relation born in Eire, and, claim citizen ship
Or
Just stop moaning and be thankful you do live on a democracy, as its that democracy that allows you the freedom to speak your mind, however shuttered that may be


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Well that's your prerogative
> 
> I smell a pro Brexit troll here. SWC?


Yes it is
And
Just because they're not agreeing with you, doesn't make them a troll

I really do have an image of Yosemete Sam losing it, in my mind, now

https://images.app.goo.gl/VLhnXYEf9ZFKBLE18


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> So democracy has no place in your world?
> Whether we like it or not, the majority, yes 4%difference equals a majority) voted leave, and, unless someone is brave enough to invoke article 50, leave, with or without a deal, is what will happen
> If you really don't like that thought, then you could always do what others have done
> Look far enough in your family tree, find a relation born in Eire, and, claim citizen ship
> Or
> Just stop moaning and be thankful you do live on a democracy, as its that democracy that allows you the freedom to speak your mind, however shuttered that may be


I was trying to make allowances and admitted my own misunderstanding of your post.

And, yes, I am thankful we currently live in a democracy. I'll enjoy that while it lasts which is why I might, "Moan" as you put it now as we might not be able to tomorrow.

You might embrace Brexit regardless of how you might have voted in 2016. People have the right to change their minds after all.

Which is why I support a PV with No deal or Revoke Article 50, forgetting any 'Brexit deal' the dear politicians keep on about.

Ironically, I would respect the result more today if No Deal won such a vote, as it would confirm people really are Turkey's voting for Christmas, rather than taken in by lies such as sunlit uplands and £350m for the NHS as they were in 2016.

Stop moaning and embrace Brexit? You've got to be joking. People didn't put up and shut up when the Poll Tax was implemented did they?!

As women, at one time, didn't put up and shut up, and stopped "Moaning" about not having the vote. Quite rightly.


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> Yes it is
> And
> Just because they're not agreeing with you, doesn't make them a troll
> 
> I really do have an image of Yosemete Sam losing it, in my mind, now
> 
> https://images.app.goo.gl/VLhnXYEf9ZFKBLE18


Just a query as it wouldn't be the first time it's happened, not singling the said person out as we've had others coming back before.

The tone of the post was rather suspicious in asking me to embrace Brexit in a roundabout fashion, as somebody else did here once or twice.

Yes, perhaps 'Troll' is not an appropriate term for a thread like this. I've amended the post to remove that comment.


----------



## mrs phas

"KittenKong said:


> You might embrace Brexit regardless of how you might have voted in 2016. People have the right to change their minds after all.
> 
> Stop moaning and embrace Brexit? You've got to be joking. People didn't put up and shut up when the Poll Tax was implemented did they?!


Why do you keep banging on about embracing? No where have I said I do, or anyone else should do, this
I stand by my vote
I don't embrace brexit, never have never would,
but 
I also don't embrace vitriolic rantings and unsubstantiated accusations either

Poll tax was a long time ago, and yes it got revoked, however, we all seem to have rolled over and taken UC without a whimper, so maybe a more up to date indication of the UK psyche


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I resented your post quite frankly. It isn't yourself who'll be losing your automatic right to live and work across 30 countries plus your citizenship.
> 
> Don't tell me to embrace the loss of mine.
> 
> The content of the post is strongly reminiscent of someone who used to post here. SWC?


 That's really rude . KK! So no one from the Eu can post there views now ?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> That's really rude . KK! So no one from the Eu can post there views now ?


Not intending to be rude.

While people are, of course, entitled to their point of view I don't like being told to embrace the loss of my rights from people who will not regardless of where they come from.

I do not begrudge people who are entitled to EU passports post Brexit but I strongly object to being told to embrace the loss of mine by such people. Remember SWC and his ROI passport?

Would be like a Lottery winner winding up others, telling them to embrace they have to work for a living, when they no longer have to, to rub people's noses in it.

We are still from the EU too by the way!


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Well, that's your prerogative. "Respect" the referendum result by all means. Just don't ask me to respect a vote based on nationalism, jingoism and lies such as £350m for the NHS on the side of a bus.
> 
> I resented your post quite frankly. It isn't yourself who'll be losing your automatic right to live and work across 30 countries plus your citizenship.
> 
> Don't tell me to embrace the loss of mine.
> 
> The content of the post is strongly reminiscent of someone who used to post here. SWC?


Gone to The Dark Side pf English Channel apparently.... sounds like his long lost EU twin...

Meanwhile Greeks put the stop to all that stupidity and trying to make peace with Brussels.


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> "KittenKong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poll tax was a long time ago, and yes it got revoked, however, we all seem to have rolled over and taken UC without a whimper, so maybe a more up to date indication of the UK psyche
> 
> 
> 
> You are probably right actually. There wasn't much public opposition to the Poll Tax until it actually happened which, despite people being told it was there to stay and that, "Conservative Councils cost you less", the fight against it continued. The Tories themselves were also split on the issue.
> 
> I would have thought UC would be popular amongst the usual tabloid readers who are told the unemployed are scroungers and live the life of luxury on benefits. Yes, some really do believe that .
Click to expand...


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The content of the post is strongly reminiscent of someone who used to post here. SWC?


Normal sane people do tend to sound alike. You've been in this thread too long.


----------



## KittenKong

Good question, seeing Dyson is moving out!


----------



## KittenKong

And I get stick from some for mentioning the bloody war?!
























https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ry-leadership-elections-romford-a8991441.html


----------



## KittenKong

Global Britain? Global laughing stock more like...


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> *Normal sane* people do tend to sound alike. You've been in this thread too long.


:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

Yet, May was a low skilled Robot as well :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yet, May was a low skilled Robot as well :Hilarious


They make her look good. I thought she was ok but lacked peoples skill so to speak.
Im starting to think i'd rather see a labour government with Corbyn in power than either of these two the head of a Tory Government.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Normal sane people do tend to sound alike. You've been in this thread too long.


Yes, they do, so if someone sounds very distinct then..,:Cigar


----------



## kimthecat

Perhaps I spoke to soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-staff-whistleblowers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

A row has broken out in the senior ranks of the Labour party after it emerged it was trying to use non-disclosure agreements against former staffers who contributed to what is expected to be a critical documentary about Jeremy Corbyn's team and antisemitism.

Tom Watson, the deputy leader, said on Twitter that using expensive lawyers to try to silence former employees was "as futile as it is stupid" and that he deplored it.

But John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the legal letters were justified. He also rejected claims Labour was being "hypocritical" because it has also called for the law to be changed to stop NDAs being used to gag whistleblowers.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

Have I been put on the block list or are those that are pro EU not have a viewpoint on the new president of the EU and Lagarde?


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Have I been put on the block list or are those that are pro EU not have a viewpoint on the new president of the EU and Lagarde?


You are certainly not on my pain in the arse list; tbh, I have just been too lazy to read up about this, tho' I admit I should have done as I saw a headline about it. I imagine many remainers are burying their heads in the sand and making like it is not true/never happened. If it was Farage, the same ones would be screaming for his head in their posts . . .

ETA: Just had a look . . . words fail!


----------



## KittenKong

This was a brilliant event in Sunderland yesterday. I was proud to be there.

David Lammy was at his brilliant best, but full credit has to go to 
the speakers from other parties and organisations including the ex Tory MP Neil Carmichael.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...avid-lammy-bridgette-phillipson-a8992711.html


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> You are certainly not on my pain in the arse list; tbh, I have just been too lazy to read up about this, tho' I admit I should have done as I saw a headline about it. I imagine many of remainers are burying their heads in the sand and making like it is not true/never happened. If it was Farage, the same ones would be screaming for his head in their posts . . .
> 
> ETA: Just had a look . . . words fail!


I just typed 'Lagarde Fraud' into google. Got all I wanted from there


----------



## kimthecat

AlexPed2393 said:


> I just typed 'Lagarde Fraud' into google. Got all I wanted from there


Well , I hope you get a response . Ive been a bit busy and not following the news much .
Christina Legarde Oh dearie me !

I dont see why anyone would have you on ignore. You're polite and don't fill your posts with loads of bumf, thank goodness


----------



## Satori

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps I spoke to soon.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-staff-whistleblowers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> A row has broken out in the senior ranks of the Labour party after it emerged it was trying to use non-disclosure agreements against former staffers who contributed to what is expected to be a critical documentary about Jeremy Corbyn's team and antisemitism.
> 
> Tom Watson, the deputy leader, said on Twitter that using expensive lawyers to try to silence former employees was "as futile as it is stupid" and that he deplored it.
> 
> But John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the legal letters were justified. He also rejected claims Labour was being "hypocritical" because it has also called for the law to be changed to stop NDAs being used to gag whistleblowers.


The Labour Party: 'For the many, not the Jew.'


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> The Labour Party: 'For the many, not the Jew.'


The Miliband bros are Jewish? 
I see it more as infighting between different fractions of Labour than genuine antisemitism so I am a bit skeptical about the whole malarkey. Not sure if the other side is not milking it!!!

There is a fine line between criticism and discrimination.


----------



## Elles




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 409771


At least he has been jailed properly now. Although his lawyer is asking for solitary in fear for his safety.

You reap what you sow I say...


----------



## Satori

cheekyscrip said:


> The Miliband bros are Jewish?
> I see it more as infighting between different fractions of Labour than genuine antisemitism so I am a bit skeptical about the whole malarkey. Not sure if the other side is not milking it!!!
> 
> There is a fine line between criticism and discrimination.


Your [pseudo]scepticism is warranted, as regards the current media circus. However you know (and I know that you know that I know that you know) that antisemitism in the socialist movement runs far deeper than than the current shitstrom and pre-dates the mili-bros by decades.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> At least he has been jailed properly now. Although his lawyer is asking for solitary in fear for his safety.
> 
> You reap what you sow I say...


Unfortunately though, like the last time, frequent promotion, whether positive or otherwise by the media will only increase his following. Like Farage and his frequent 'Question Time' and other appearances S Y-L was made by the media, notably by the good old BBC.

I'll be expecting to see the, "Free Tommy" graffiti on walls again


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> You clearly didn't watch the footage after the crazy old lady Widdicombe made a speech. A lot and I mean A LOT of that hall applauded her.


 She was a total embarrassement.

Great article in the Irish Times.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...tq3Em74rnbTGwP8jQIAEn7HrYbSrwkFoYDYntniJwe1RY

*Nostalgia for empire is implicit in British exceptionalism*
*Ann Widdecombe is latest exponent of the historical ignorance at heart of the Brexit disaster*



AlexPed2393 said:


> What the EU are doing to Switzerland is a prime example of why I want us to leave the EU and the dominance of Germany and France for Presidential roles is becoming more and more apparent, they are looking to put Christine Lagarde who has been committed of FRAUD as head of the European Central Bank


But she hasnt been committed of FRAUD, this is simply not true



Calvine said:


> You are certainly not on my pain in the arse list; tbh, I have just been too lazy to read up about this, tho' I admit I should have done as I saw a headline about it. I imagine many remainers are burying their heads in the sand and making like it is not true/never happened. If it was Farage, the same ones would be screaming for his head in their posts . . .
> 
> ETA: Just had a look . . . words fail!


I have criticised the EU for many things, but this story is untrue. I've yet to see you criticise Farage for anything though- only defend him, despite him being a racist, a liar & a con man.



AlexPed2393 said:


> I just typed 'Lagarde Fraud' into google. Got all I wanted from there


So worrying people google yet still don't know how to find a trustworthy source. As you have provided no links @AlexPed2393 . was your source the right wing gutter press by any chance?



kimthecat said:


> Well , I hope you get a response . Ive been a bit busy and not following the news much .
> Christina Legarde Oh dearie me !
> 
> I dont see why anyone would have you on ignore. You're polite and don't fill your posts with loads of bumf, thank goodness


Its not true. She was found guilty of negligence not fraud.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> So worrying people google yet still don't know how to find a trustworthy source. As you have provided no links @AlexPed2393 . was your source the right wing gutter press by any chance?
> 
> Its not true. She was found guilty of negligence not fraud.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ty-of-negligence-in-fraud-trial-a7484586.html

"French judges found Ms Lagarde guilty of negligence for failing to challenge the state arbitration payout to the friend of former French President Nicolas Sarkozy."

Oh sorry she was found to be in negligence for a £355 million payout... if that was on your CV would a bank even think of hiring you?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> I have criticised the EU for many things, but this story is untrue


How are any of the stories in regards to the EU getting new presidents untrue? How is the way they are dealing with Switzerland untrue?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 409828


How much of the population voted to stay in the EU then?


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> How much of the population voted to stay in the EU then?


If they are assuming that the population is 65m, around 24.5% of it voted to stay in.

Of course the _electorate_ is far less than that, and works out at 37.4% voted to leave and 34.7% to stay.


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> How much of the population voted to stay in the EU then?


Does the attempt of their silencing opponents and the smashing up of gear yesterday not concern you? Good grief.

It wouldn't matter if 80% of the entire UK voted for Brexit. It's the attempted silencing of opponents that's the worry.

This isn't going to end well.....


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Oh sorry she was found to be in negligence for a £355 million payout.


 Amazing that they casually mention these amounts as though they are loose change!!


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> How much of the population voted to stay in the EU then?


 You beat me to it.


----------



## Jesthar

AlexPed2393 said:


> How much of the population voted to stay in the EU then?


I think perhaps some more pertinant questions are:


What percentage of those who voted to leave genuinely wanted 'Brexit, whatever the cost', as opposed to Brexit with a deal

Have the leave/remain precentages changed significantly in either direction in the last three years

Not that I think we'll ever get sensible answers to those questions as Our Glorious Leaders aren't in a listening mood, let alone an asking mood...


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Does the attempt of their silencing opponents and the smashing up of gear yesterday not concern you? Good grief.
> 
> It wouldn't matter if 80% of the entire UK voted for Brexit. It's the attempted silencing of opponents that's the worry.
> 
> This isn't going to end well.....


Silencing opponents?? I'm sorry but the left is terrible for this. Do you not remember that nurse in London screaming down the old guys throat? There are countless examples of both sides doing it so neither end of the political spectrum can play the victim card


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> Amazing that they casually mention these amounts as though they are loose change!!


Its only 1420 times the value of a normal house. Nothing to see here


----------



## Elles

The remainers warned that no deal would be disastrous, alongside everything else about voting leave. People voted leave anyway, so I’d guess that as no one wanted brexit to be a disaster, they didn’t believe that leaving without a withdrawal deal would be a disaster. Obviously there will still be trade deals, with the Eu and with the rest of the world at some stage. It’s not going to be armageddon if the U.K. leave the Eu without agreeing a withdrawal deal. 

Remainers might get their election, or even a second referendum, but even they must look at recent events in the Eu and the Labour Party and not be feeling very optimistic about their chances. I’m starting to wonder why anyone would vote to stay in the Eu, or for Labour. The arguments for the other side are rather more persuasive.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ty-of-negligence-in-fraud-trial-a7484586.html
> 
> "French judges found Ms Lagarde guilty of negligence for failing to challenge the state arbitration payout to the friend of former French President Nicolas Sarkozy."
> 
> Oh sorry she was found to be in negligence for a £355 million payout... if that was on your CV would a bank even think of hiring you?


Yes negligence, yet you were adamant she had committed fraud when she had done no such thing. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. I'm not an apologist for Lagarde, I simply believe the truth is more vital than ever in these Orwellian times of 'fake news'.



AlexPed2393 said:


> How are any of the stories in regards to the EU getting new presidents untrue? How is the way they are dealing with Switzerland untrue?


I exposed an untruth you accused Lagarde of. . Lagarde was found guilty of negligence not fraud. I dont know much about the story tbh. But is this more important to brexiers than the future of NHS for example?

Brexit is a right wing power grab, corporate America is rubbing its hands - all but the wealthiest will suffer as a result of us leaving the EU.

Personally I dont believe in cutting my nose off to spite my face. But brexiters are going to drag us all over the cliff with them.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> The remainers warned that no deal would be disastrous, alongside everything else about voting leave. People voted leave anyway, so I'd guess that as no one wanted brexit to be a disaster, they didn't believe that leaving without a withdrawal deal would be a disaster. Obviously there will still be trade deals, with the Eu and with the rest of the world at some stage. It's not going to be armageddon if the U.K. leave the Eu without agreeing a withdrawal deal.
> 
> Remainers might get their election, or even a second referendum, but even they must look at recent events in the Eu and the Labour Party and not be feeling very optimistic about their chances. I'm starting to wonder why anyone would vote to stay in the Eu, or for Labour. The arguments for the other side are rather more persuasive.


This is why I would vote to stay in the EU.



noushka05 said:


> Brexit is a right wing power grab, corporate America is rubbing its hands - all but the wealthiest will suffer as a result of us leaving the EU.
> 
> Personally I dont believe in cutting my nose off to spite my face. But brexiters are going to drag us all over the cliff with them.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Yes negligence, yet you were adamant she had committed fraud when she had done no such thing. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. I'm not an apologist for Lagarde, I simply believe the truth is more vital than ever in these Orwellian times of 'fake news'.
> 
> I exposed an untruth you accused Lagarde of. . Lagarde was found guilty of negligence not fraud. I dont know much about the story tbh. But is this more important to brexiers than the future of NHS for example?
> 
> Brexit is a right wing power grab, corporate America is rubbing its hands - all but the wealthiest will suffer as a result of us leaving the EU.
> 
> Personally I dont believe in cutting my nose off to spite my face. But brexiters are going to drag us all over the cliff with them.


Are you brushing under the carpet the fact she was negligent in a £300 million plus payout? don't go off topic on this.

I agree she was accused of fraud and found to be negligent. Inthe financial world that is a huge RED FLAG


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Yes negligence, yet you were adamant she had committed fraud when she had done no such thing. Fraud is a serious criminal offence. I'm not an apologist for Lagarde, I simply believe the truth is more vital than ever in these Orwellian times of 'fake news'.
> 
> I exposed an untruth you accused Lagarde of. . Lagarde was found guilty of negligence not fraud. I dont know much about the story tbh. But is this more important to brexiers than the future of NHS for example?


Lagarde _could_ have been sentenced to a year in prison for the 'unserious' conviction of negligence....


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Are you brushing under the carpet the fact she was negligent in a £300 million plus payout? don't go off topic on this.
> 
> I agree she was accused of fraud and found to be negligent. Inthe financial world that is a huge RED FLAG


No I certainly am not. I am correcting your error. Facts matter.

Who are you agreeing with? Who said she was even accused of Fraud? I've seen no evidence to support this claim either She was investigated for negligence and found guilty. Unless you have other information?.



MilleD said:


> Lagarde _could_ have been sentenced to a year in prison for the 'unserious' conviction of negligence....


I didn't say it was unserious, but fraud is more serious


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> No I certainly am not. I am correcting your error. Facts matter.
> 
> Who are you agreeing with? Who said she was even accused of Fraud? I've seen no evidence to support this claim either She was investigated for negligence and found guilty. Unless you have other information?.
> 
> I didn't say it was unserious, but fraud is more serious


I'm agreeing with you saying that she was accused of Fraud and found GUILTY of being negligent in regards to a £300+ million payout. Which should get you fired, short prison sentence, the full wabang schalang. And now she is going to be basically the head of the EU's financing.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Your [pseudo]scepticism is warranted, as regards the current media circus. However you know (and I know that you know that I know that you know) that antisemitism in the socialist movement runs far deeper than than the current shitstrom and pre-dates the mili-bros by decades.


Since Marx , Engels and Trockyi.


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> I'm agreeing with you saying that she was accused of Fraud and found GUILTY of being negligent in regards to a £300+ million payout. Which should get you fired, short prison sentence, the full wabang schalang. And now she is going to be basically the head of the EU's financing.


She was accused of fraud by you Alex - not by those who investigated her.


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> She was accused of fraud by you Alex - not by those who investigated her.


Well sorry that I used the wrong term, you are still not answering whether you are happy that someone convicted of negligence is going to be the ECB president.


----------



## KittenKong

Sworn enemies of their 'Britain'?
They must be missing their beloved wars.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...er-belgrano-twitter-comments?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> She was accused of fraud by you Alex - not by those who investigated her.


It was a fraud case. She was "accused of negligence in public office in relation to the misuse of public funds".


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 409878
> View attachment 409879


Remember how I was ridiculed here predicting this scenario?

Also predicting we will be dragged into No Deal against all promises that we will not leave EU without a deal, that business are safe , farmers are safe...

I lived under communism and it was exactly that: ONE Party with some puppets, one truth, one line and opposition in prison.

Even minors were under a treat they will be expelled from school and banned from access to any other school in secondary education or uni.

If they don't toe the official line.

Every civil servant had to be a member of The Party and in most jobs if you were not your way to promotion was barred.

Mamma Mia, here we go again, just about 30 years since the fall of Berlin Wall.

Pigs winning once again.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Remember how I was ridiculed here predicting this scenario?
> 
> Also predicting we will be dragged into No Deal against all promises that we will not leave EU without a deal, that business are safe , farmers are safe...
> 
> I lived under communism and it was exactly that: ONE Party with some puppets, one truth, one line and opposition in prison.
> 
> Even minors were under a treat they will be expelled from school and banned from access to any other school in secondary education or uni.
> 
> If they don't toe the official line.
> 
> Every civil servant had to be a member of The Party and in most jobs if you were not your way to promotion was barred.
> 
> Mamma Mia, here we go again, just about 30 years since the fall of Berlin Wall.
> 
> Pigs winning once again.


You are certainly the most qualified person here to know all this while many in the UK, even some I know who voted Remain, dismiss the UK is sleepwalking into a fascist dictatorship, believing it would never happen here.

It's not too late to wake up and take a good look at what's really going on.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

He agreed with a phone in that civil servants obstructing brexit should change their ways or be removed. He said applying it to the military would be going too far. Nigel Farage is neither Prime Minister, or the Queen of England last I heard.

People were given a vote, they voted to leave the Eu. If we leave, but then later vote to rejoin and civil servants obstruct it, you’d be happy with that and you’d expect a rejoiner representative to be happy with it? Of course no one is going to get the sack, the government would have to sack themselves. Civil servants should be unbiased and working for crown and country, not obstructing brexit and I expect they’re doing their jobs.

Accusing the whole of Britain and the British public of being communists one minute and fascists the next, based on throwaway comments by unimportant individuals is hugely insulting and undeserved. Britain didn’t kowtow to the Nazis or the communists in the past, I have no reason to think we will now or in the future.

Most sensible people know it full well, they just say it for effect and to get a reaction.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> He agreed with a phone in that civil servants obstructing brexit should change their ways or be removed. He said applying it to the military would be going too far. Nigel Farage is neither Prime Minister, or the Queen of England last I heard.
> 
> People were given a vote, they voted to leave the Eu. If we leave, but then later vote to rejoin and civil servants obstruct it, you'd be happy with that and you'd expect a rejoiner representative to be happy with it? Of course no one is going to get the sack, the government would have to sack themselves. Civil servants should be unbiased and working for crown and country, not obstructing brexit and I expect they're doing their jobs.
> 
> Accusing the whole of Britain and the British public of being communists one minute and fascists the next, based on throwaway comments by unimportant individuals is hugely insulting and undeserved. Britain didn't kowtow to the Nazis or the communists in the past, I have no reason to think we will now or in the future.
> 
> Most sensible people know it full well, they just say it for effect and to get a reaction.


No idea how did you get to the whole Britain being communist or fascist?

It was pointed that one opinion or else you face repressions was practiced in such regimes but how that equals to Britain kowtow to Nazis?

Twister, mister! Or madam...

Personally I think it is good if civil servants are chosen for competence not politics.

Governments change but often new ministers wise enough keep the competent staff already employed.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> He agreed with a phone in that civil servants obstructing brexit should change their ways or be removed. He said applying it to the military would be going too far. Nigel Farage is neither Prime Minister, or the Queen of England last I heard.


You could argue Corbyn's Labour is dominated by Milne and McCluskey. They are not in government, but if they were, who would you think would be pulling the strings?

In the same sense Farage and Trump have a hold over the Tory party despite not being elected to do so.

Ah yes, we must respect the will of these people...


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> *Personally I think it is good if civil servants are chosen for competence not politics.*
> 
> Governments change but often new ministers wise enough keep the competent staff already employed.


Maybe but can we really trust them, I'm sure they dance to their own tune, that doesn't mean it's what the country want or need.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> No idea how did you get to the whole Britain being communist or fascist?
> 
> It was pointed that one opinion or else you face repressions was practiced in such regimes but how that equals to Britain kowtow to Nazis?
> 
> Twister, mister! Or madam...
> 
> Personally I think it is good if civil servants are chosen for competence not politics.
> 
> Governments change but often new ministers wise enough keep the competent staff already employed.


Because you said you lived under a communist regime and here we go again? 

Communists, Nazis, same thing, when it comes to toe the line or else and the Nazi, fascist thing is repeated on petforums on a daily basis, so I may as well join in. 

You agree with Farage then. Then that's pretty much what he said. Civil servants that obstruct brexit, should change their ways or be removed (from their position of influence). He wasn't suggesting they should be taken out back and shot, or put in prison.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Because you said you lived under a communist regime and here we go again?
> 
> Communists, Nazis, same thing, when it comes to toe the line or else and the Nazi, fascist thing is repeated on petforums on a daily basis, so I may as well join in.
> 
> You agree with Farage then. Then that's pretty much what he said. Civil servants that obstruct brexit, should change their ways or be removed (from their position of influence). He wasn't suggesting they should be taken out back and shot, or put in prison.


So only nodding dogs should be employed then?
No criticism allowed?

I can assure you that economy can be destroyed by political " who is not with us is against us" ...
So what is it? Reality or party line?

Oh, forgot "we need no experts ".

Oh, civil sycophants singing hymns of praise for No Deal can be found, no doubt.

There countries where all and sundry price their One Party and Their Leaders and how that affects their economy?

Oh, but the people don't complain there...
Guess why...

So the qualifications for the job is now " Must agree with Farage".


----------



## KittenKong

This is unbelievable. Morrisons reportedly refuse to stock _The New European _due to being considered political. Fair enough.

Yet, they are now allowing the distribution of the Farage Party's free paper .

They have lost my custom for one.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> This is unbelievable. Morrisons reportedly refuse to stock _The New European _due to being considered political. Fair enough.
> 
> Yet, they are now allowing the distribution of the Farage Party's free paper .
> 
> They have lost my custom for one.
> 
> View attachment 410046


There is a thread in Dog Chat at moment regarding dog poo and ways to dispose of it without using plastic, newspaper is one suggestion. Farage`s paper would be ideal, use crap to scoop up crap! perfect!


----------



## Elles

There is a middle ground. You know, the unbiased, none political one. Chosen for competence not politics. If that’s what Farage said, then yes, agree with Farage on this one point. 

If you’re not with us, so long as you aren’t against us in your working environment, that’s fine. Do your job. I don’t think you’d agree with civil servants blocking what you voted for and agreed with. They shouldn’t use their position to block anything the British public voted for. They can still go out on rallies and demonstrations and use their own vote, same as anyone else, just so long as it doesn’t affect their work. What’s wrong with that?


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> There is a thread in Dog Chat at moment regarding dog poo and ways to dispose of it without using plastic, newspaper is one suggestion. Farage`s paper would be ideal, use crap to scoop up crap! perfect!


Someone suggested using it to line a cat litter tray. I wouldn't put Tabatha through that.

Besides, I'll no longer be buying her litter from Morrisons anyway...


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> They shouldn't use their position to block anything the British public voted for.


Yes, 52% of 37% of the population voted to leave. Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted to remain. How do you feel about Scotland losing its individual identity as they are now considered part of "Britain" and are called "British" rather than Scottish? Yes, Scotland are currently in the UK (not for much longer hopefully), but always referred to as Scottish rather than British.

Will Newcastle Brown Ale soon be renamed "British Brown Ale" with the Butcher's apron on bottles?

I'm not allowed to bring politics into work. I am very impartial. Would you approve of Farage insisting I lost my job through having a different opinion to himself?

It is dictatorship to suggest that I should. Conversely if the same was to be said for someone who voted leave all those years ago.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> How do you feel about Scotland losing its individual identity as they are now considered part of "Britain" and are called "British" rather than Scottish? Yes, Scotland are currently in the UK (not for much longer hopefully), but always referred to as Scottish rather than British.


Erm , haven't they been British and part of the UK since it was formed in 1707?

How do you think the English , Welsh, and Irish feel about being "British " ?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Erm , haven't they been British and part of the UK since it was formed in 1707?
> 
> How do you think the English , Welsh, and Irish feel about being "British " ?


Yes, you are right. Just that, in the past Scotland has usually been seen as " Scottish" rather than British. Produce such as whiskey and many more produced in Scotland has always been proudly that with Scottish Saltire. Even British Rail was known as "Scot Rail".

Now, since the Brexit vote and the rise in British Nationalism, Scotland are losing their identity with their produce amongst other things being re-labelled as British, which never happened before, which is my point.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Yes, 52% of 37% of the population voted to leave. Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted to remain. How do you feel about Scotland losing its individual identity as they are now considered part of "Britain" and are called "British" rather than Scottish? Yes, Scotland are currently in the UK (not for much longer hopefully), but always referred to as Scottish rather than British.
> 
> Will Newcastle Brown Ale soon be renamed "British Brown Ale" with the Butcher's apron on bottles?
> 
> I'm not allowed to bring politics into work. I am very impartial. Would you approve of Farage insisting I lost my job through having a different opinion to himself?
> 
> It is dictatorship to suggest that I should. Conversely if the same was to be said for someone who voted leave all those years ago.


Read the post you replied to.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Erm , haven't they been British and part of the UK since it was formed in 1707?
> 
> * How do you think the English , Welsh, and Irish feel about being "British "* ?


I don't know, but on all forms I fill in if they say British I always change it to English!


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws said:


> I don't know, but on all forms I fill in if they say British I always change it to English!


If asked what nationality I am, I always say I'm English, but when asked about what passport I hold, I reply "British"! And where do I come from ..... the UK of course!


----------



## Guest

Don't worry about Scotland. The Dutch have been having quiet negotiations with Scotland and have agreed that if they break away from the UK Scotland will become an annexe of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and Scottish citizens will be able to apply for Dutch passports so will remain EU Citizens according to: https://dutchreview.com/news/international/scotland-netherlands-reach-brexit-agreement-annexation/


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Don't worry about Scotland. The Dutch have been having quiet negotiations with Scotland and have agreed that if they break away from the UK Scotland will become an annexe of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and Scottish citizens will be able to apply for Dutch passports so will remain EU Citizens according to: https://dutchreview.com/news/international/scotland-netherlands-reach-brexit-agreement-annexation/


 That was a good April fools!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> I don't know, but on all forms I fill in if they say British I always change it to English!


 I always make something up like ''Cherokee Red Indian''.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you are right. Just that, in the past Scotland has usually been seen as " Scottish" rather than British. Produce such as whiskey and many more produced in Scotland has always been proudly that with Scottish Saltire. Even British Rail was known as "Scot Rail".
> 
> Now, since the Brexit vote and the rise in British Nationalism, Scotland are losing their identity with their produce amongst other things being re-labelled as British, which never happened before, which is my point.


What produce has been re-labelled?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> What produce has been re-labelled?


 One recent example. Provided by a firm in Dundee. These had the Scottish Saltire and the legend, "Scottish". This is minus from their website image so must be interim.

Despite coming from the same supplier they are now sold as "British" with the Butcher's apron on the box


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 410180
> 
> 
> One recent example. Provided by a firm in Dundee. These had the Scottish Saltire and the legend, "Scottish". This is minus from their website image so must be interim.
> 
> Despite coming from the same supplier they are now sold as "British" with the Butcher's apron on the box


Wouldn't it cut down on costs to just have the same label across the entire country rather than different ones in different areas? And surely I don't think people are screaming from the rooftops about it. How do you know if they have suppliers in both Scotland and England so they can't call them either but can call them British.

If it were special Scottish shortbread, whisky, tartan, kilt or something ICONICALLY Scottish then yeh I'd be weirded out too, but these are eggs...


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is unbelievable. Morrisons reportedly refuse to stock _The New European _due to being considered political. Fair enough.
> 
> Yet, they are now allowing the distribution of the Farage Party's free paper .
> 
> They have lost my custom for one.
> 
> View attachment 410046


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...hJ5jFMZjw2BzXNntVzQtUdKors66JLZ6K8fkuXC2GOqLM

*Morrisons bins Brexit party newspaper 'put in store by activists' after boycott row*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...hJ5jFMZjw2BzXNntVzQtUdKors66JLZ6K8fkuXC2GOqLM
> 
> *Morrisons bins Brexit party newspaper 'put in store by activists' after boycott row*


Pity, would be perfect for lining the litter try.

What a waste!


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Will Newcastle Brown Ale soon be renamed "British Brown Ale"


I see no need to rename this product
Last I looked Newcastle was in Britain anyway
So the descriptor is correct

How silly some people can be when stretching for their point


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Produce such as whiskey and many more produced in Scotland has always been proudly that with Scottish Saltire.


Scots would be absolutely horrified to be tarnished with the produce


> whiskey


Whisky is Scottish
Not
Whiskey


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> What produce has been re-labelled?


Haggis?


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Whiskey


Which is Irish I thought? Hence likely not worth drinking.


----------



## mrs phas

Calvine said:


> Haggis?


im quite surprised its not been relabelled something hip and trendy, 
especially,
as being full of bits that people normally throw away ( not me, I love a haggis, and liver, kidneys, chittlings etc) 
it supports nose to tail eating, 
which is something that the climate traffic jammers, think they invented, cos of course us oldies only ate ready meals :Banghead
however thats a different thread
back to remoaning and exbrexitting


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you are right. Just that, in the past Scotland has usually been seen as " Scottish" rather than British. Produce such as whiskey and many more produced in Scotland has always been proudly that with Scottish Saltire. Even British Rail was known as "Scot Rail".
> 
> Now, since the Brexit vote and the rise in British Nationalism, Scotland are losing their identity with their produce amongst other things being re-labelled as British, which never happened before, which is my point.


Outside of twitter and Facebook have you actually spoken to any Scottish residents that are as outraged as you are over the removal of a flag on eggs?


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Yes, 52% of 37% of the population voted to leave.


then the other 63% shouldve got off their complacent backsides and voted
that highlights the problem with the majority of this country
CBA syndrome


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Outside of twitter and Facebook have you actually spoken to any Scottish residents that are as outraged as you are over the removal of a flag on eggs?


No, not personally. One of my colleagues is Scottish and she's as anti Brexit as I am, but have not seen her lately to mention this. I doubt she would approve in the same sense I despise this British Nationalism being English.

For that matter do you know anyone from Scotland who approves of this re-labelling?

Will it soon be British Pasties instead of Cornish and British Pork Pies instead of Melton Mowbray?

I'd imagine had the EU forced this upon produce with the EU flag on everything Brexit supporters would be up in arms. The EU haven't and don't intend to.

Incase anyone suggests otherwise I buy German sausages from Lidl which come with a small German flag on the packet


----------



## 3dogs2cats

mrs phas said:


> then the other 63% shouldve got off their complacent backsides and voted
> that highlights the problem with the majority of this country
> CBA syndrome


What evidence do you have that those who did not vote chose not to due to complacency?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> No, not personally. One of my colleagues is Scottish and she's as anti Brexit as I am, but have not seen her lately to mention this. I doubt she would approve in the same sense I despise this British Nationalism being English.
> 
> For that matter do you know anyone from Scotland who approves of this re-labelling?
> 
> Will it soon be British Pasties instead of Cornish and British Pork Pies instead of Melton Mowbray?
> 
> I'd imagine had the EU forced this upon produce with the EU flag on everything Brexit supporters would be up in arms. The EU haven't and don't intend to.
> 
> Incase anyone suggests otherwise I buy German sausages from Lidl which come with a small German flag on the packet


I will ask the Scottish guy at work tomorrow what he thinks of these items flags changing!

We aren't talking about items which are quintessentially linked to a country or part of a country. If they started relabelling things to "British Haggis" or "British Wiskey" when it was clearly Scottish then I would agree. The same way they wouldn't relabel Cornish Pasties that come from Cornwall. We are talking about small insigificant food produce like eggs or bread, which are likely owned by a company that covers the whole of the UK anyway!

Do you not think you are taking it a bit far and being a bit alarmist?


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Outside of twitter and Facebook have you actually spoken to any Scottish residents that are as outraged as you are over the removal of a flag on eggs?


My DIL is a Scot from Edinburgh, living in Cornwall. (Her family can trace their Scottish roots back to the year dot). She stayed with me last month and although we spoke about Brexit she never mentioned anything about produce being relabelled with a British, as opposed to the Scottish, flag.

In light of the fact that their yacht is registered in Scotland and flies the Saltire I'm fairly certain if there was a major change in policy, either she or my son (who's English) would have told me.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Haggis?


Nope

https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Simon-Howie-Bagged-Haggis-/121929011


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Nope
> 
> https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Simon-Howie-Bagged-Haggis-/121929011


https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/tesco-vegan-haggis-england-wales-scottish-demand-skyrockets


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> I will ask the Scottish guy at work tomorrow what he thinks of these items flags changing!
> 
> We aren't talking about items which are quintessentially linked to a country or part of a country. If they started relabelling things to "British Haggis" or "British Wiskey" when it was clearly Scottish then I would agree. The same way they wouldn't relabel Cornish Pasties that come from Cornwall. We are talking about small insigificant food produce like eggs or bread, which are likely owned by a company that covers the whole of the UK anyway!
> 
> Do you not think you are taking it a bit far and being a bit alarmist?


No, I don't think I'm being alarmist. I detest the Butcher's apron thrown in my face every time I go shopping. I don't buy them. Nothing wrong with an image of the flag but when the box or packaging is covered by the symbol it really is rubbing it in your face.

Personally speaking, if I was a Scottish provider who supplied the whole of the UK and beyond I'd be bloody furious if my produce was re-named from Scottish to British.

I'll be contacting Iceland about this. Will be interesting to hear how they can justify the change.

I wonder how long it will be before Scottish Mackerel Fillets are re-branded as 'British'.

Soon, if they get their way, Cornish Pasties will probably come from the US.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Nope
> 
> https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Simon-Howie-Bagged-Haggis-/121929011


One must be grateful for small mercies. I wonder how long for though?


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> No, not personally. One of my colleagues is Scottish and she's as anti Brexit as I am, but have not seen her lately to mention this. I doubt she would approve in the same sense I despise this British Nationalism being English.
> 
> For that matter do you know anyone from Scotland who approves of this re-labelling?
> 
> Will it soon be British Pasties instead of Cornish and British Pork Pies instead of Melton Mowbray?
> 
> I'd imagine had the EU forced this upon produce with the EU flag on everything Brexit supporters would be up in arms. The EU haven't and don't intend to.
> 
> Incase anyone suggests otherwise I buy German sausages from Lidl which come with a small German flag on the packet


My wife is Scottish and she couldn't care less. Eggs are eggs but as said before iconically scottish produce, brands that are Scottish or regional should keep their branding, which i think they have. Newcastle Brown Ale would first have to go to North East Brown ale, then English Brown ale, then British brown ale....

She has no real opinion on the whole Brexit thing so I would say she is a good unbiased source.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't think I'm being alarmist. I detest the Butcher's apron thrown in my face every time I go shopping. I don't buy them. Nothing wrong with an image of the flag but when the box or packaging is covered by the symbol it really is rubbing it in your face.
> 
> Personally speaking, if I was a Scottish provider who supplied the whole of the UK and beyond I'd be bloody furious if my produce was re-named from Scottish to British.
> 
> I'll be contacting Iceland about this. Will be interesting to hear how they can justify the change.
> 
> I wonder how long it will be before Scottish Mackerel Fillets are re-branded as 'British'.
> 
> Soon, if they get their way, Cornish Pasties will probably come from the US.


Have you not thought that iceland might have several supplies across both Scotland and England, so therefore it's easier to just say British eggs on all packaging.... just a thought KK.

Same goes for Mackerel fillets, they can be caught pretty much anywhere.

Youre calling the British flag the 'Butcher's apron' talk about wanting to better the union and all that. It's called localised marketing, people like seeing that their stuff is local, it's done less miles, it's British. Cornish pasties can't come from the US as they are protected produce I believe https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12535751

Good luck getting an email back from Iceland with a different answer than mine.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't think I'm being alarmist. I detest the Butcher's apron thrown in my face every time I go shopping. I don't buy them. Nothing wrong with an image of the flag but when the box or packaging is covered by the symbol it really is rubbing it in your face.
> 
> Personally speaking, if I was a Scottish provider who supplied the whole of the UK and beyond I'd be bloody furious if my produce was re-named from Scottish to British.
> 
> I'll be contacting Iceland about this. Will be interesting to hear how they can justify the change.
> 
> I wonder how long it will be before Scottish Mackerel Fillets are re-branded as 'British'.
> 
> Soon, if they get their way, Cornish Pasties will probably come from the US.


I think you having exactly the same reaction when people talked all the crap about the EU saying cheese couldn't be called cheddar and bananas couldn't be more than a certain curve.

People laughed at folks believing that, pretty sure this is the same.

And what is the butcher's apron?


----------



## AlexPed2393

MilleD said:


> And what is the butcher's apron?


It's the Union Jack


----------



## MilleD

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's the Union Jack


Oh, it's an insult? Nice to think of our flag like that.


----------



## Elles

Perhaps it should all have been renamed as European and the Eu flag put on it instead.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Perhaps it should all have been renamed as European and the Eu flag put on it instead.


I would imagine the uproar if that happened! Even I wouldn't agree with that!

Yet, many seem comfortable about Scottish produce being re-branded as British with the packaging decorated with_ that_ flag!


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I would imagine the uproar if that happened! Even I wouldn't agree with that!
> 
> Yet, many seem comfortable about Scottish produce being re-branded as British with the packaging decorated with_ that_ flag!


You still haven't given us an example that has a proper explanation.


----------



## Guest

Sorry I have been following this food labelling comments. Here in the Netherlands we have made in The Netherlands, or Holland on products made here nothing with made in the EU and a little EU flag on them. Each country puts made in whatever country the products are made in on them. I am trying to understand why you are so upset and insulted about the changing of a design on eggs in the United Kingdom kittenkong. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.

Anyway I will but out of this so I don't get my head chewed off. Sorry.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I have never heard of the Butchers Apron before, I have only just learnt the Union Jack should only be called that on a ship, on land it is just the Union Flag. All these years and I didn't know that - terrible! I don't think I will have long to get used to the idea of calling it the Union, in the non to distance future the union will no longer exist therefore the Union Flag/Jack will fly no more on land or sea.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I would imagine the uproar if that happened! Even I wouldn't agree with that!
> 
> Yet, many seem comfortable about Scottish produce being re-branded as British with the packaging decorated with_ that_ flag!


You know the Saltire is included in _that_ flag right?

Examples of the things you are absolutely disgusted by would be helpful.

And I mean things that are quintessentially Scottish. Not eggs...


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Oh, it's an insult? Nice to think of our flag like that.


What's insulting, the term Butcher? 
What I find insulting is the way the flag is misused by far-right groups the way it is.

Then, I doubt very much the flag, as it stands, will be the same in a few years time, and I'm not talking about the Brexit Party symbol being added to it either....


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Then, I doubt very much the flag, as it stands, will be the same in a few years time, and _I'm not talking about the_ _Brexit Party symbol being added to it either._...


That`s made me laugh, don't give Farage any ideas  
Seriously I do agree the Union Kingdoms days are numbered so the flag will not be an issue.


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Seriously I do agree the Union Kingdoms days are numbered


 Will Scotland be happy becoming part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands if they break away from the United Kingdom :Hilarious
https://dutchreview.com/news/international/scotland-netherlands-reach-brexit-agreement-annexation/ (this was a good April fools article 2018)


----------



## stuaz

So I asked the colleague about the flag on produce and his response (with slightly more colorful language) was:

“Sounds like first world problems, I don’t think anyone would notice/care, plus Scotland is in the UK, if they decided to put a German flag then it would be weird”.

He then went on a rant about people being offended for the sake of being offended but I won’t bore you all with that!

He hadn’t even noticed any change and going by his response he didn’t really care ether...


----------



## Guest

Eggs in the Amsterdam.








No Dutch flag or EU flag.








Oat melk in Amsterdam. No Dutch flag or EU flag.

and....









My lunch at the Amsterdam Bread Co. 
No Dutch flags or EU flags on packaging.


----------



## Magyarmum

In Hungary we do have some grocery products which will be identified as Hungarian either by the colours of the flag or by a logo.










Unlike the UK and possibly Holland a lot of our food products are imported from other EU countries such Ireland









or France









or Belgium









Apart from the language no flags or "Made in Wherever" to tell you where they come from!


----------



## Guest

I have wanted to say this since reading the food labelling changes on eggs in the UK this morning. I think some people in the UK are obsessed with the EU and come out with some silly comments. Food companies in countries within the EU do not have to display flags on there products especially the EU flag. They are labelled telling the consumer what the product is. No one makes a big fuss over the packaging designs either that I know of. Flag or no flag on the egg boxes do not change what the product is, eggs in this instance. Who cares as eggs are eggs at the end of the day and many people don't make a big fuss over changes to the packaging when and if it happens that I know of.


----------



## mrs phas

AlexPed2393 said:


> It's the Union Jack


Pedantry alert ()

Its the Union flag, unless flown aboard,
Then its the Union Jack


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> Pedantry alert ()
> 
> Its the Union flag, unless flown aboard,
> Then its the Union Jack


According to this report from the Flag Institute it doesn't make any difference

https://www.flagmakers.co.uk/info/flag-facts-figures/the-union-flag-vs-the-union-jack/

*The Union Flag vs. The Union Jack*









*In an argument almost as old as the flag itself, the British public have been asking "Is it the Union Jack, or the Union Flag?"*


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> According to this report from the Flag Institute it doesn't make any difference
> 
> https://www.flagmakers.co.uk/info/flag-facts-figures/the-union-flag-vs-the-union-jack/
> 
> *The Union Flag vs. The Union Jack*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *In an argument almost as old as the flag itself, the British public have been asking "Is it the Union Jack, or the Union Flag?"*


Thanks for the link @Magyarmum 
I suppose it depends on how old one is and type of school
It was drummed into us that, unless it was aboard, then it was wrong to refer to it as the union jack
I still remember the bellows of
"Does this school look like a ship!!!"
If someone called it 'wrong'
And that was at secondary modern


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> What's insulting, the term Butcher?
> What I find insulting is the way the flag is misused by far-right groups the way it is.


The term 'Butchers Apron' for the Union flag is a perjorative coined by the colonies (particularly popular in Ireland, I believe), and refers to how many indiginous peoples were slaughtered and otherwise brutally oppressed in the name of expanding and maintaining the British Empire.

This concludes History 101 for the day


----------



## KittenKong

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...8NsMRyEg-MZv2teuaB7kl5qt5jiIcgmi&guccounter=2


----------



## Calvine

https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/

When I was young, it was always ''Union Jack'' then it suddenly changed, can't remember when or the reason given.


----------



## AlexPed2393

@KittenKong please reply to my quoted messages it'd be nice to see your reasoning


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 410262
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...8NsMRyEg-MZv2teuaB7kl5qt5jiIcgmi&guccounter=2


Have got me on ignore or don't you read other people's posts?

I refer you to my post no 13477 of yesterday which is exactly what you've just posted!



Magyarmum said:


> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...hJ5jFMZjw2BzXNntVzQtUdKors66JLZ6K8fkuXC2GOqLM
> 
> *Morrisons bins Brexit party newspaper 'put in store by activists' after boycott row*


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...hJ5jFMZjw2BzXNntVzQtUdKors66JLZ6K8fkuXC2GOqLM
> 
> *Morrisons bins Brexit party newspaper 'put in store by activists' after boycott row*





KittenKong said:


> View attachment 410262
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/shop...8NsMRyEg-MZv2teuaB7kl5qt5jiIcgmi&guccounter=2


Obviously you missed @Magyarmum's post yesterday pointing this exact thing out
Perhaps a breather in between unresearched rants would help. All this anger cannot be good for your blood pressure, whatever happens, happens, we cannot, now, influence it, nor will the new, unelected by the people, 'prime minister' turn their back on it
Democracy will out, madness or not


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> Perhaps a breather in between unresearched rants would help. All this anger cannot be good for your blood pressure,


Absolutely . Of course people are allowed to be angry but three continual years of it !. A waste of time and life , time is precious , life is short.


----------



## AlexPed2393

@KittenKong any reply from Iceland in regards to the rebranding?


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> The term 'Butchers Apron' for the Union flag is a perjorative coined by the colonies (particularly popular in Ireland, I believe), and refers to how many indiginous peoples were slaughtered and otherwise brutally oppressed in the name of expanding and maintaining the British Empire.
> 
> This concludes History 101 for the day


The British Empire which included all of the union. Not just the English that KK seems to hate so much.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> The British Empire which included all of the union. Not just the English that KK seems to hate so much.


I think it's fair to say that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland haven't necessarily always been enthusiastic and willing members of the Union, though. Nor have the English always been kind or considerate neighbours and bedfellows. I'm 1/4 Scottish myself, so I take more than a passing interest in the history, as well as having something of a dilemma every time the Calcutta Cup rolls around


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> The British Empire which included all of the union. Not just the English that KK seems to hate so much.


Of course, I've been accused of being a 'Britain hater' through not supporting Brexit!

It's all about division and hatred at the end of the day, which I find very sad.

It doesn't mean I hate England. I hate what its become which is different.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Of course, I've been accused of being a 'Britain hater' through not supporting Brexit!
> 
> It's all about division and hatred at the end of the day, which I find very sad.
> 
> It doesn't mean I hate England. I hate what its become which is different.


You not alone, 48% Britain haters, and if it is No Deal Brexit only, then much more...

Then add those who had no vote....

Seems minority is dragging us all off the cliff so BoJo and Mogg make ever more dough.

Why British poor want to give to the rich?

I find it slightly weird, lost all survival instinct like Persian cats?

Watched "Victoria" and think they still are Empire????

Or that they won WWII ?


----------



## Guest

> I hate what its become


Sorry, can I ask in what England has become? What do you mean? My parents haven't mentioned about anything changing since the referendum the UK had. Sorry I am confused in that you seem to think England has changed. They live in the North of England by the way and are travelling over here next weekend and my partner and I are looking forward to entertaining them over Amsterdam Pride. I am intrigued to know if England has really changed and if so how?


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> Sorry, can I ask in what England has become? What do you mean? My parents haven't mentioned about anything changing since the referendum the UK had. Sorry I am confused in that you seem to think England has changed. They live in the North of England by the way and are travelling over here next weekend and my partner and I are looking forward to entertaining them over Amsterdam Pride. I am intrigued to know if England has really changed and if so how?


It did. If you a foreigner living there you will know...


----------



## KittenKong

A better life unemployed. Really???
What planet are some of these people on?


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Seems minority is dragging us all off the cliff so BoJo and Mogg make ever more dough.
> 
> Why British poor want to give to the rich?


Saw a FB post earlier today that criticised unemployed parents, arguing they shouldn't be allowed to have children unless they are in work and providing for them. Fair comment from someone in work.

Yet, no criticism of this lot living the life of luxury at the expense of the taxpayer.








Funny old world isn't it....


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Saw a FB post earlier today that criticised unemployed parents, arguing they shouldn't be allowed to have children unless they are in work and providing for them. Fair comment from someone in work.
> 
> Yet, no criticism of this lot living the life of luxury at the expense of the taxpayer.
> View attachment 410403
> 
> Funny old world isn't it....


They provide alternative to Love Island and are selling well. 
It is a solid brand still. Quite entertaining are the Royals...else what? Kardashians?

I rather ask how Farage can justify his salary as MEP during previous term?

Bosses of failing banks with millions of bonuses for failing?
Mr Green?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Saw a FB post earlier today that criticised unemployed parents, arguing they shouldn't be allowed to have children unless they are in work and providing for them. Fair comment from someone in work.


I would never go as far as say that someone shouldn't be allowed to have children, but I do think it is reckless to decide to have children without being able to provide for them. (Obviously situations change but I am referring to the long term unemployed who decide to have a child(ren) and who are barely able to keep there own heads above water).


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> arguing they shouldn't be allowed to have children


I do think there should come a point when ''enough is enough'' - getting child allowance when you have produced a whole football team and still have no intentions of working when many working people would like another child but even with two working full-time cannot afford it in my mind is just total abuse of the system. Benefits are meant to be a lifeline, not a lifestyle surely. 
I know someone who has eight children by three husbands. The first husband worked, but two and three never did. Every child got a car for its 17th (?) birthday, every year a holiday in Florida; the list goes on. She is a likable person, don't get me wrong, I don't despise her or anything, but without doing a stroke of work she has a lifestyle which many working people could never emulate (so, not unlike the two in your photo).


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> It did. If you a foreigner living there you will know...


Doesn't really answer what I asked.

*What has changed in the UK since the referendum the UK had, changes I mean that have been genuinely caused by the referendum* (Hope this question makes what I was asking clearer?)*? *


----------



## AlexPed2393

Calvine said:


> I do think there should come a point when ''enough is enough'' - getting child allowance when you have produced a whole football team and still have no intentions of working when many working people would like another child but even with two working full-time cannot afford it in my mind is just total abuse of the system. Benefits are meant to be a lifeline, not a lifestyle surely.
> I know someone who has eight children by three husbands. The first husband worked, but two and three never did. Every child got a car for its 17th (?) birthday, every year a holiday in Florida; the list goes on. She is a likable person, don't get me wrong, I don't despise her or anything, but without doing a stroke of work she has a lifestyle which many working people could never emulate (so, not unlike the two in your photo).


I totally agree with you here. Benefits should be a lifeline for those that truly need it or cannot work. Not those who simply can't be bothered to work.

There was a documentary recently about Hartlepool and moving onto the new benefits system (which I'm not sure of) and the guy was applying but he had no drivers license, no passport, no debit/credit card for anything, no address, didn't know his telephone number, didn't know his NI number. And then they put their hands in the air saying 'oooo no-one cares about me'. The customer service person on the phone had to hang up as he had no way of identifying him.

Get your stuff in order man!!


----------



## Guest

Me and my partner have considered adoption here in The Netherlands but financially we cannot afford to take on a child as much as we want to and we both work.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## AlexPed2393

@KittenKong any movement with Iceland?


----------



## KittenKong

Either he's very stupid, or believes people are. More likely the latter.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Either he's very stupid, or believes people are. More likely the latter.
> 
> View attachment 410506


People are. They elected Trump.
They will elect BoJo.

My question is... so how the kippers should be packed ? In newspaper?

Not an expert but if a smoked fish is to travel normally is vacuum packed in plastic?

Even in Canada or Russia ..


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> People are. They elected Trump.
> They will elect BoJo.
> 
> My question is... so how the kippers should be packed ? In newspaper?
> 
> Not an expert but if a smoked fish is to travel normally is vacuum packed in plastic?
> 
> Even in Canada or Russia ..


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49030873

*Is Boris Johnson right about the rules on kippers?*

I buy vegan cheese from a supplier in Budapest,which is delivered by courier.

To comply with the EU directive even though the cheese is in plastic, to travel it also has to be packed in a cooler box!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Either he's very stupid, or believes people are. More likely the latter.
> 
> View attachment 410506


Johnson getting his kippers in a twist!

He knows The Will of The People don't care if he lies. He can come out with any old rubbish, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> Johnson getting his kippers in a twist!
> 
> He knows The Will of The People don't care if he lies. He can come out with any old rubbish, it doesn't matter.


It's the same with Trump how on earth are people daft enough to vote for him but they did, so on that Johnson will be our next PM.:Arghh The world is crazy.


----------



## Elles

I think Boris Johnson’s advisors don’t want him elected. It’s unlikely he came up with that by himself and didn’t tell anyone, or check it. Hmm, this is Boris... ok, I take it back, other than the first part. :Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think Boris Johnson's advisors don't want him elected. It's unlikely he came up with that by himself and didn't tell anyone, or check it. Hmm, this is Boris... ok, I take it back, other than the first part. :Hilarious


:Hilarious I don't think anyone in their right mind wants Boris elected. Problem is, the competition is also rubbish - bit like the scenario that got Trumplestiltskin elected...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> :Hilarious I don't think anyone in their right mind wants Boris elected. Problem is, the competition is also rubbish - bit like the scenario that got Trumplestiltskin elected...


World will watch new series of Dumb and Dumber....

It will be very popular in Russia...

If their people ever entertained idea of Will of The People....

Tsar Putin will point those two....


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49030873
> 
> *Is Boris Johnson right about the rules on kippers?*
> 
> I buy vegan cheese from a supplier in Budapest,which is delivered by courier.
> 
> To comply with the EU directive even though the cheese is in plastic, to travel it also has to be packed in a cooler box!


Dairy products in cooler bag? Even if EU came up with it that sounds rather good?

Or BoJo will find it another reason for hard Brexit.

Hard cheese...


----------



## mrs phas

well we had blair being bush's poodle
will we have boris being trumps golden retriever?

why, anyone is really worrying, i dont know, once we become the 53rd state, everything will change again
if you dont believe boris will sell us down the river, then I wish you well


----------



## KittenKong

It gets more stupid by the day.
Who are the ones who want to leave?!

As a "Briton", I know firmly where the blame will lie if there's _any _Brexit.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-eu-britons-wont-forgive-brussels-generation/


----------



## KittenKong

I'll keep my mouth shut.









https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...-newspaper-back-discovers-its-a-uk-law/19/07/


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I'll keep my mouth shut.
> View attachment 410560
> 
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...-newspaper-back-discovers-its-a-uk-law/19/07/


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


>


I would have thought you'd at least acknowledge the UK won't see Fish and Chips being wrapped in used newspapers again post Brexit.

Arguably, this is even better, as seen on Facebook.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I would have thought you'd at least acknowledge the UK won't see Fish and Chips being wrapped in used newspapers again post Brexit.
> 
> Arguably, this is even better, as seen on Facebook.
> View attachment 410570


Now why would i do that?

mystified .com


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Dairy products in cooler bag? Even if EU came up with it that sounds rather good?
> 
> Or BoJo will find it another reason for hard Brexit.
> 
> Hard cheese...


Here you go the EU regulation that Boris was talking about ....

https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/biosafety/food_hygiene/legislation_en

*Legislation*

*EU Rules regarding Food Hygiene cover all stages of the production, processing, distribution and placing on the market of food intended for human consumption.*

https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...rong-he-was-right-about-those-isle-of-man-kip

*Richard Short: The EU Commission and Johnson's critics are wrong. He was right about those Isle of Man kippers.*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Here you go the EU regulation that Boris was talking about ....
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/biosafety/food_hygiene/legislation_en
> 
> *Legislation*
> 
> *EU Rules regarding Food Hygiene cover all stages of the production, processing, distribution and placing on the market of food intended for human consumption.*
> 
> https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...rong-he-was-right-about-those-isle-of-man-kip
> 
> *Richard Short: The EU Commission and Johnson's critics are wrong. He was right about those Isle of Man kippers.*


What a lot of fuss over damn kippers as if they're not more important things to worry about such as bendy bananas and the likes.

And, you accuse me of being boring?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What a lot of fuss over damn kippers as if they're not more important things to worry about such as bendy bananas and the likes.
> 
> And, you accuse me of being boring?


You didn't seem to think so when you posted this. It seemed to be of major importance to you, or have you now like Donny boy changed your mind?



KittenKong said:


> Either he's very stupid, or believes people are. More likely the latter.
> 
> View attachment 410506


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Here you go the EU regulation that Boris was talking about ....
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/biosafety/food_hygiene/legislation_en
> 
> *Legislation*
> 
> *EU Rules regarding Food Hygiene cover all stages of the production, processing, distribution and placing on the market of food intended for human consumption.*
> 
> https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...rong-he-was-right-about-those-isle-of-man-kip
> 
> *Richard Short: The EU Commission and Johnson's critics are wrong. He was right about those Isle of Man kippers.*


What is wrong with food hygiene?

Every country has standards regardless and now they have to match anyhow?

So we are leaving to free the kippers???

BoJo is scrapping the bottom of the kippers' barrel.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> What is wrong with food hygiene?
> 
> Every country has standards regardless and now they have to match anyhow?
> 
> So we are leaving to free the kippers???
> 
> BoJo is scrapping the bottom of the kippers' barrel.


The Eu isn't a country.


----------



## Guest

Why are some people making a big issue of kippers because of what Boris said? It is not a fish I would eat. Haring (sorry Herring) and Zalm (salmon) are two of my favourite fish.

Elles is correct the EU is not a country. Each country in the EU has it's own separate laws. 

Why does the UK Parliament think it can stop Brexit, it cannot? The next UK PM will be offered an extension of up to 5 years from the EU but with all the arguing going on in the UK Parliament I think time will run out on the 31st October 2019.

It will be sad to see the UK go when it leaves the EU.


----------



## mrs phas

saartje said:


> Why are some people making a big issue of kippers because of what Boris said? It is not a fish I would eat. Haring (sorry Herring) and Zalm (salmon) are two of my favourite fish.
> .


kippers are just smoked herring


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The Eu isn't a country.


Who said it is?
But regardless of it's existence or any membership all countries nowadays have some such standards and all EU did is harmonisation of those.

Each country might have their own higher standards but EU provides the minimum requirements.

But we can wave the flag and say no EU bureaucrats will stop us from packing the keepers in The Sun!!!


----------



## Guest

This is how I have haring over here:


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Why does the UK Parliament think it can stop Brexit, it cannot?


 Parliament does not want to stop Brexit or at least the Majority of MPs don't. Many MPs want the UK to leave with a deal but that is not the same thing as wishing to stop Brexit.


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Parliament does not want to stop Brexit or at least the Majority of MPs don't. Many MPs want the UK to leave with a deal but that is not the same thing as wishing to stop Brexit.


A deal was given to the UK by the EU but the UK Parliament keep rejecting it. From what I understand is that the deal will not be renegotiated at all and the EU leaders are not willing to reopen negotiations.The deal was always going to be in favour of the remaining 27 countries. The current deadline is the 31st October and I feel that the UK Parliament won't agree to the deal by then or come up with a solution. They go on holiday again next week like the Brexit deadline is not important.


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> Parliament does not want to stop Brexit or at least the Majority of MPs don't. Many MPs want the UK to leave with a deal but that is not the same thing as wishing to stop Brexit.


Indeed. Those who want to leave with a deal support Brexit pure and simple, regardless of how they voted in 2016.

They just don't support a no deal departure.

Saw this on Facebook earlier, as spotted a an Underground train.


----------



## rona

mrs phas said:


> kippers are just smoked herring


One of which I have in my fridge right now 

Haven't had one for years and Boris just reminded me how much I used to like them


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Keep going on about our politicians, the new Eu lot are no better, if not worse than the old. We don’t need more of them, we have enough of our own.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Keep going on about our politicians, the new Eu lot are no better, if not worse than the old. We don't need more of them, we have enough of our own.


We need saving from the most incompetent Westminster politicians in history. I'm not talking about US politicians either.


----------



## kimthecat

Talk of kippers remind me of Red Dwarf


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> We need saving from the most incompetent Westminster politicians in history. I'm not talking about US politicians either.


I didn't know there were any US politicians in Westminster. How long have they been there?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 410602


Dyson moved (vacuum cleaner) production to Malaysia in 2002, followed, I believe, by washing machine production shortly afterwards. Nothing to do with Brexit which hasn't happened yet but simply because of vastly lower production costs. I know someone who commuted London - Malmesbury when he worked for them; he said the best thing about the job was the canteen. Apparently the guy who ran it (the canteen, not the company) had been Head Chef at the Connaught!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Dyson moved (vacuum cleaner) production to Malaysia in 2002, followed, I believe, by washing machine production shortly afterwards. Nothing to do with Brexit which hasn't happened yet but simply because of vastly lower production costs. I know someone who commuted London - Malmesbury when he worked for them; he said the best thing about the job was the canteen. Apparently the guy who ran it (the canteen, not the company) had been Head Chef at the Connaught!


Yes, he did indeed move production to Malaysia and was knighted for it. Dyson remained a "British" company otherwise however.

Many Brexit supporters looked to Dyson as an example of a successful "British" business, as frequently promoted by the usual media. "If Sir James said Brexit will be good for business", they believed him.

Yet, other successful business people like Sir Richard Branson, Lord Alan Sugar and Deborah Meaden's concerns were completed ignored.

Sir James was so confident about British business he moved his entire company to Singapore!

If I was taken in by his confidence at the time I would be feeling pretty miffed!

After all, the future PM , of the party of business said, "F*** business". Now, even Farage has conceeded the UK may break up!

Still think it's worth it?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Still think it's worth it?


At the moment I am more concerned about what is happening with the Iranians. (I can only worry about one thing at once; not a multi-tasker, me!)


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> At the moment I am more concerned about what is happening with the Iranians. (I can only worry about one thing at once; not a multi-tasker, me!)


You'll be able to add Northern Ireland to the list if a hard border sees the return of the troubles....


----------



## KittenKong

Incredible! Hasn't he forgotten the UK is leaving them to go it alone with Trump, yet they have the audacity to ask for their help?

Hopefully, they'll tell him to f*** off.


----------



## KittenKong

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...k-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo

Ah didums. Who said the EU need us more than we need them? To be fair, not Jeremy Hunt directly.

Sorry Brexit supporters, but it was always going to be, "America First". Then of course, we're told Great Britain once stood alone in fighting the enemy....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Incredible! Hasn't he forgotten the UK is leaving them to go it alone with Trump, yet they have the audacity to ask for their help?
> 
> Hopefully, they'll tell him to f*** off.
> View attachment 410799





KittenKong said:


> View attachment 410807
> 
> 
> https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...k-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo
> 
> Ah didums. Who said the EU need us more than we need them? To be fair, not Jeremy Hunt directly.


Honestly, I'm getting quite concerned about your mental health. You really need to step away from anything Brexit for a while.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49075764


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Incredible! Hasn't he forgotten the UK is leaving them to go it alone with Trump, yet they have the audacity to ask for their help?
> 
> Hopefully, they'll tell him to f*** off.
> View attachment 410799


Dont be silly. It will affect other countries too soon so its a world crisis. The crew are from various countries.
Edited for spelling.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Dont be silly. It will affect other countries too soon so its a world crises. The crew are from various countries.


Well, it's down to those countries to sort it out if it is affecting them.

My point is Jeremy Hunt had no right to demand assistance for the UK from them. They chose to go it alone after all.

And Farage is doing a good job in maintaining a close and "Deep and special partnership" with the rest of Europe.

Not my doing, nor what I wanted.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> They are no longer friends of the UK.


What? ........................Don't be ridiculous


----------



## AlexPed2393

So... Boris is in


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> So... Boris is in


Quelle surprise!! I read a whole lot of them said they would leave when (and if) BJ got in; watch this space, as they say.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Fingers crossed it destroys him & his rotten, selfserving party. 
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/johnson-s-need-to-be-loved-is-his-weakness-wlwlrrlrf


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Fingers crossed it destroys him & his rotten, selfserving party.
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/johnson-s-need-to-be-loved-is-his-weakness-wlwlrrlrf


But it will take us with them.

It didn't happen in 2016 by freak bout of infighting... it was pretty obvious.

The only reason BoJo dumped Cameron.

Hail new and unelected PM, Nasty Party happy.

Who is going to stop them?

Divided Labour with a leader who sabotaged Remain?


----------



## kimthecat

I bet he forgets to feed larry.!


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Well, it's down to those countries to sort it out if it is affecting them.
> 
> My point is Jeremy Hunt had no right to demand assistance for the UK from them. They chose to go it alone after all.


But he does have a right to request help from the UK's allies that being every European Country in the case you are talking about. The Netherlands has received a request from London and will consider this next month when the Dutch Parliament returns from recess. A European Fleet is being put together according to the news. The Dutch Defence Ministry has said on twitter that the Netherlands stands in solidarity with the UK. So we are still friends and allies.

A request has been put into the United Nations as well which is also the correct course of action by the UK.

The only reason why the Dutch have not sent help for the UK is because our Parliament is in recess so cannot respond to this request yet. I have no doubt that the Netherlands will send a ship to join the European Fleet that is being put together.

Regardless of Brexit the remaining 27 countries will remain very close allies to the UK and will respond to any future requests of military help from the UK and will remain friends with the UK.

I am putting this article up because it is in English: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...frigate-to-protect-british-vessels-in-hormuz/


----------



## Elles

We’re leaving the Eu, not Europe.


----------



## stuaz

The UK has a long history of military alliances with other European countries which is unrelated to the EU organisation. 

The UK doesn't agree with how the US wants to handle Iran situation and America has been asking for help from the UK with the Strait of Hormuz. The UK wants to help, but doesn't agree with the USA direction but actually agrees with how European countries want to handle it and other European countries don't want to be seen working with the USA on this topic so in my view its a clever bit of diplomacy on the UK's front. They please the US by helping, but they do it there own way which is aligned with Europe so ask for other European countries.

I know this logic doesn't goes against some people's "I hate the UK" mantra but its how it is.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Dont be silly. It will affect other countries too soon so its a world crisis. The crew are from various countries.
> Edited for spelling.


This rather proves my point. The abuse Guy has received from one who's will we must respect proves my point.

After all, the abuse should have been directed at Hunt, as he was the one who suggested it.

Why do these people hate so much?














to


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> This rather proves my point. The abuse Guy has received from one who's will we must respect proves my point.
> 
> After all, the abuse should have been directed at Hunt, as he was the one who suggested it.
> 
> Why do these people hate so much?
> View attachment 410898
> View attachment 410899
> to


There are Idiots everywhere @KittenKong (more so on Twitter).


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> This rather proves my point. The abuse Guy has received from one who's will we must respect proves my point.
> 
> After all, the abuse should have been directed at Hunt, as he was the one who suggested it.
> 
> Why do these people hate so much?
> View attachment 410898
> View attachment 410899
> to


The UK is still European and will remain European even after Brexit, so European's are stronger working together. The comment below Guy Verhofstadt's is incorrect as it was the UK that requested assistance from it's allies and the European countries are responding by putting together a European Naval fleet as the UK is and will remain a European Country.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> There are Idiots everywhere @KittenKong (more so on Twitter).


Who are you calling the idiot? Guy Verhofstadt or Pat.52%?

Thought, being a Brexit supporter he's surely speaking for you and others?

Then, are Brexit supporters themselves deeply divided?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Who are you calling the idiot? Guy Verhofstadt or Pat.52%?
> 
> Thought, being a Brexit supporter he's surely speaking for you and others?
> 
> Then, are Brexit supporters themselves deeply divided?


Your thought processes are getting ever more bizarre, please have a detox.
I'm very concerned about you.........seriously

This isn't trying to be clever or nasty, I'm truly worried for you


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> This is how I have haring over here:
> View attachment 410599


Oh my god 

:Vomit:Vomit:Vomit:Vomit


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Why do these people hate so much?


the irony


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Your thought processes are getting ever more bizarre, please have a detox.
> I'm very concerned about you.........seriously
> 
> This isn't trying to be clever or nasty, I'm truly worried for you


That'll be next. Not only are we deemed enemies of the people for not backing Brexit, we are now deemed to be mentally ill too!

What would you suggest be our cure? Hypnosis, thought control, brainwashing?

I'd expect that from the days of Nazi Germany or the old Soviet Union.

From some of your posts I'd thought you would agree with the tweet. If not, this only goes to show Brexit supporters themselves are deeply divided.

It's always meant different things to different people....


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> the irony


A hatred of hate?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> That'll be next. Not only are we deemed enemies of the people for not backing Brexit, we are now deemed to be mentally ill too!
> 
> What would you suggest be our cure? Hypnosis, thought control, brainwashing?
> 
> I'd expect that from the days of Nazi Germany or the old Soviet Union.
> 
> From some of your posts I'd thought you would agree with the tweet. If not, this only goes to show Brexit supporters themselves are deeply divided.
> 
> It's always meant different things to different people....


It's not about who thinks what about anything. It's your reactions to others posts, like this reaction to my concern for your welfare.
Please have a break.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Who are you calling the idiot? Guy Verhofstadt or Pat.52%?
> 
> *Thought, being a Brexit supporter he's surely speaking for you and others?*
> 
> Then, are Brexit supporters themselves deeply divided?


Who said I'm a Brexit supporter?


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> Who said I'm a Brexit supporter?


Thought you were. My apologies if I got that wrong.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, I never thought we'd see this. In spite of the terrible alternatives I am not for one second sorry to see the back of her.

Good riddance.


----------



## kimthecat

Im pleased she retired for her own sake . She had an impossible task of trying to please everyone and she did her best.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I bet he forgets to feed larry.!


 Boris has a cat himself apparently. One of the reasons he wanted hunting in London was because his own cat was attacked (possibly by a fox but could have been cat/cat). Hopefully Larry will welcome another cat into number 10?? I always imagined Cherie Blair might poison the resident cat at no. 10 . . . she always reminded me of Cruella Deville. I think the one before Larry was Humphrey?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Im pleased she retired for her own sake . She had an impossible task of trying to please everyone and she did her best.


Well, I don't think for a start those she wrongly had arrested and forced out of the UK could be pleased!
She did, sort of, unite people against her Brexit plan for obviously very different reasons though.


----------



## KittenKong

Surely a serious error of judgement?






























https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...d-as-boris-adviser/ar-AAEMY9Q?ocid=spartandhp


----------



## mrs phas

stuaz said:


> Who said I'm a Brexit supporter?


Havent you realised yet
anyone and everyone who disagrees, in the teensiest slightest, with KK is a brexit supporter


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Im pleased she retired for her own sake . She had an impossible task of trying to please everyone and she did her best.


I'm with Caroline.










All the way.


----------



## noushka05

Welcome to tory Britain.


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> Havent you realised yet
> anyone and everyone who disagrees, in the teensiest slightest, with KK is a brexit supporter


yes indeedy ! I really miss Arniecat . So sensible and always honest . He is someone you could listen to without wondering whether he has rabies and is frothing at the mouth .


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> yes indeedy ! I really miss Arniecat . So sensible and always honest . He is someone you could listen to without wondering whether he has rabies and is frothing at the mouth .


I hope @Arnie83 hasnt left the forum? That would be another big loss to the place.

Arnie was never snide but always respectful & thoughtful in his posts. And if he thought he'd upset anyone he always had the grace & humility to apologise. If he's left because maybe someone has upset him, I only hope they have the same good grace & decency to show him the same courtesy ,


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Wednesday 24 July 2019 by Davywavy*

*Queen to pretend to be out when Boris Johnson arrives*









*Staff at Buckingham palace have been asked to tell Boris Johnson that the queen has nipped out when he arrives later today.*

Johnson, who is expected to shamble untidily into Her Majesty's London home and ask to be put in charge later this morning, will be informed the monarch has been unavoidably called away to a six-month state visit to South Georgia, and that all the phones are down and so she can't be reached.

Meanwhile, Queen Elizabeth will hide in her bathroom with the light off until Boris and his entourage goes away.

"It's like when the Jehovahs Witnesses come round," said royal equerry Sir Simon Prince-Williams.

"As head of the Church of England the Queen cannot join a berserk cult united in an evidence-free belief in redemption through the destruction of all things for the benefit of a blessed few - and she can't join the Jehovahs Witnesses either.

"But she also can't appear to be rude, as that might trigger a constitutional crisis and we know how that worked out for Charles the First - so hiding in the royal bog with the blinds down until he ****s off seems like a reasonable solution to the problem."

A spokesman for Boris Johnson said that he'd spent the last few years hanging round Number Ten like a fart in a Volkswagen waiting to be prime minister, so lingering in the hall at Buck House for as long as it takes was just fine and dandy.

"She can't stay in there doing Sudoku forever," we were told.


----------



## KittenKong

The Farage in a blonde wig converts the Conservative Party into the Farage Fascist Brexit Party. May converting the Tories into UKIP was bad enough.

No doubt the restoration of the death penalty will be the ultimate Brexit goal. Now seems very likely.

And what is Corbyn doing? Sitting on the fence as per usual.

I predicted this, though didn't think May would go. I expected a Falklands-like war that would have saved her as that saved Thatcher.

I'm surprised Liam Fox isn't in the cabinet, perhaps he's not considered right wing enough.

Utterly depressing....

https://www.independent.co.uk/


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> Havent you realised yet
> anyone and everyone who disagrees, in the teensiest slightest, with KK is a brexit supporter


Nonsense. I am what you might call a "Hard Remainer", the exact opposite of someone like Farage or Steven Yaxley-Lennon. I don't only want to remain in the EU I want the lot: EU army, the Euro and Schengen. Time to rid ourselves of British Imperialism for good. That's me.

Then I recognise even many Remainers might not agree with that, in the same sense not all Brexit supporters want a no deal crash out, whatever they may argue.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The Farage in a blonde wig


You mean this one? Nigel, Donald and Bojo are triplets?


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> I want the lot: EU army, the Euro and Schengen. Time to rid ourselves of British Imperialism for good.


So you want to get rid of the UK's individual identity that makes it a country. Even The Netherlands won't do this.

You have some strange ideas of what the EU is.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> That'll be next. Not only are we deemed enemies of the people for not backing Brexit, we are now deemed to be mentally ill too!
> 
> What would you suggest be our cure? Hypnosis, thought control, brainwashing?
> 
> I'd expect that from the days of Nazi Germany or the old Soviet Union.
> 
> From some of your posts I'd thought you would agree with the tweet. If not, this only goes to show Brexit supporters themselves are deeply divided.
> 
> It's always meant different things to different people....


You probably thought this was an over reaction.

I only wish to God it was....


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> You probably thought this was an over reaction.
> 
> I only wish to God it was....
> View attachment 411035


So that's a headline that someone at the Telegraph has written? And....?


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> So you want to get rid of the UK's individual identity that makes it a country. Even The Netherlands won't do this.
> 
> You have some strange ideas of what the EU is.


KK just truly hates the UK. Well, England at least. So yes, he wants rid of UK identity. I honestly don't know why he doesn't just live somewhere else as he hates it here so much.

Just the sheer act of trawling for all these things to post can't be healthy.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> KK just truly hates the UK. Well, England at least. So yes, he wants rid of UK identity. I honestly don't know why he doesn't just live somewhere else as he hates it here so much.
> 
> Just the sheer act of trawling for all these things to post can't be healthy.


AHH yes, Because I won't toe the line and support Brexit I hate the UK! Who said anything about wanting to lose its identity? I don't like Nationalism and the longing for the British Empire.

We used to have such a good identity. Only a few years ago we embraced the 2012 London Olympics, winning many medals. Being in the EU didn't make the event somehow less British.

Now look at it. A place now thriving on hatred and intolerance, even towards people who have a different opinion.

That is what I detest. I'm sure many in Germany would agree Nationalism is not the way forward....


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So that's a headline that someone at the Telegraph has written? And....?


You forget people read such papers. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I, or someone else wrote similar concerning Brexit supporters...


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Now look at it. A place now thriving on hatred and intolerance, even towards people who have a different opinion.


My mum and dad haven't mentioned anything about hatred or intolerance happening and they live in the North of England.

Are you sure this is really happening in the UK or is this just made up to give the wrong impression of the UK?

I am confused with what you say painting a negative impression of the UK and I try hard to find evidence of what you are saying online and my relatives in the UK have not said anything.

Do you have any facts to back this up?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> You forget people read such papers. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I, or someone else wrote similar concerning Brexit supporters...


Couldn't give a monkey's if I'm honest.


----------



## mrs phas

saartje said:


> My mum and dad haven't mentioned anything about hatred or intolerance happening and they live in the North of England.
> 
> Are you sure this is really happening in the UK or is this just made up to give the wrong impression of the UK?
> 
> I am confused with what you say painting a negative impression of the UK and I try hard to find evidence of what you are saying online and my relatives in the UK have not said anything.
> 
> Do you have any facts to back this up?


course this isnt happening
you will always get the odd racist or grumpy bugger
but 
no more than other countries
the thing is, the papers ( who reads papers these days) just dont like a normal headline, it doesnt sell, the mugs read what they want to read and then extrapolate crap
you know the old adadge
"elephants are grey
but
not all grey things are elephants"?

KK and their cohorts extrapolate these minor things to 
this country voting for brexit
means
its running wild and feral, with rampant imperialism and xenophobia


----------



## cheekyscrip

mrs phas said:


> course this isnt happening
> you will always get the odd racist or grumpy bugger
> but
> no more than other countries
> the thing is, the papers ( who reads papers these days) just dont like a normal headline, it doesnt sell, the mugs read what they want to read and then extrapolate crap
> you know the old adadge
> "elephants are grey
> but
> not all grey things are elephants"?
> 
> KK and their cohorts extrapolate these minor things to
> this country voting for brexit
> means
> its running wild and feral, with rampant imperialism and xenophobia


On behalf of KK cohort ... yes xenophobia is on the rise.

Brexit will only deepen the divide between the privileged and the poor...
Then the privileged will brainwash the poor using their influence in media to blame foreigners, Muslim etc ... for lack of proper health care, low wages, rubbish state schools...

Xenophobia will rise and rise...

But the privileged in their luxury gated estates or fine villas abroad won't give a damn...

Yes... out of EU and straight in to Trump's America...

:Banghead

On another note - can I have my cohort too???

Or even a posy ?

enguinenguinenguin


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> My mum and dad haven't mentioned anything about hatred or intolerance happening and they live in the North of England.
> 
> Are you sure this is really happening in the UK or is this just made up to give the wrong impression of the UK?
> 
> I am confused with what you say painting a negative impression of the UK and I try hard to find evidence of what you are saying online and my relatives in the UK have not said anything.
> 
> Do you have any facts to back this up?


My son and family live in Cornwall as does my sister in law. My DIL's parents and sisters all live in Scotland and I have friends living just outside London and Liverpool. I'm in regular contact with them all and like your parents, none of them have mentioned any xenophobia or hatred.

The only thing they have said is that like everyone else they want Brexit to be over and done with!


----------



## rona

I'm in West Sussex, living in an area with varying race, varying sexual orientation, varying wealth, varying abilities or disabilities.
Not heard or seen one thing from anyone about prejudice of any kind, not even in overheard conversations.

May have the odd report in a local paper about something or other, but we all know how papers grab at a headline, even if it's not strictly true


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I'm in West Sussex, living in an area with varying race, varying sexual orientation, varying wealth, varying abilities or disabilities.
> Not heard or seen one thing from anyone about prejudice of any kind, not even in overheard conversations.
> 
> May have the odd report in a local paper about something or other, but we all know how papers grab at a headline, even if it's not strictly true


Many of my friends who are Polish etc... live in UK.
I know what they say and things are getting unpleasant or downright nasty.
Someone I know here took his family to Gibraltar because his children were bullied at school for being Polish.

Let's say in my department the are no more not British employed and I because British only by marriage feel less welcome.
All EU employees that left felt being treated as we were lesser kind of human, all done in a very English way...

I wonder if the Boss does it on purpose to get rid of us or just doesn't realise he treats English staff in much more friendly manner?

But those who left were not replaced by better or more qualified, but all newcomers are English.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> KK just truly hates the UK. Well, England at least. So yes, he wants rid of UK identity. I honestly don't know why he doesn't just live somewhere else as he hates it here so much.
> 
> Just the sheer act of trawling for all these things to post can't be healthy.


Let's face it if you want to find something negative you can always find it simply by doing an internet search!


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> KK just truly hates the UK. Well, England at least. So yes, he wants rid of UK identity. I honestly don't know why he doesn't just live somewhere else as he hates it here so much.
> 
> Just the sheer act of trawling for all these things to post can't be healthy.


Totally disagree, I think KK cares very much about the country he loves and is worried along with millions of British people where Brexit takes us.

If American person posted things against Trump and his cronies does it mean they hate USA and their identity?
If a Russian person is against Putin means they are against Russia?

If you critical of political parties and direction they lead to doesn't mean you hate your country!!!

I am vitally concerned about the extremist party in power in Poland and many supporters are happy to accuse me of betrayal, just because I stand for gay people rights etc... which apparently is against "Polish Catholic identity".

What about protesters in Hong Kong ?
They hate HK obviously?


----------



## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit will only deepen the divide between the privileged and the poor...
> Then the privileged will brainwash the poor using their influence in media to blame foreigners, Muslim etc ... for lack of proper health care, low wages, rubbish state schools...
> 
> Xenophobia will rise and rise...
> 
> But the privileged in their luxury gated estates or fine villas abroad won't give a damn..
> enguinenguinenguin


What a barrel of bullplah!
You're equating being poor to being stupid
Again 
an extrapolation that doesn't hold water

I'm in one of the poorest socioeconomic groups, 
non working widowed female, disabled, with grown children living at home, so they muck up any of the benefits I do get, and, also empty bedrooms which further affect benefits.
I have so many debts, enough to go bankrupt,
but, 
I don't have, nor can I raise the £1000 needed to do so, 
so
even more of my money is taken, at source, to make tiny payments on those debts
Am I poor because I'm unintelligent?
Certainly not, 
I had a well paying job, as did my late husband, well paid enough it allowed me to give up work and look after my children as a SAHM
I'm poor because this government would rather disabled people died than help them, 
and, 
because employers won't employ people with hidden disabilities, inc mh problems, that may mean they have repeated time of work due to effect ts and side effects of their disability

So please don't patronise or disrespect 
'The poor'
Many of them are more intelligent than you know


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> May have the odd report in a local paper about something or other, but we all know how papers grab at a headline, even if it's not strictly true


 It was blatantly obvious after the 2016 referendum that anything unpleasant happening to a foreigner was deemed a direct result of Brexit and received the appropriate headlines. ''Polish builder has shed torched'' is one which comes to memory. My neighbour's shed, the same night, was broken into and his brand new lawn mower stolen. He is British so it didn't make the headlines. . . . and so on, and so forth.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Let's face it if you want to find something negative you can always find it simply by doing an internet search!


 . . . or just log on to Petforums.:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

mrs phas said:


> What a barrel of bullplah!
> You're equating being poor to being stupid
> Again
> an extrapolation that doesn't hold water
> 
> I'm in one of the poorest socioeconomic groups,
> non working widowed female, disabled, with grown children living at home, so they muck up any of the benefits I do get, and, also empty bedrooms which further affect benefits.
> I have so many debts, enough to go bankrupt,
> but,
> I don't have, nor can I raise the £1000 needed to do so,
> so
> even more of my money is taken, at source, to make tiny payments on those debts
> Am I poor because I'm unintelligent?
> Certainly not,
> I had a well paying job, as did my late husband, well paid enough it allowed me to give up work and look after my children as a SAHM
> I'm poor because this government would rather disabled people died than help them,
> and,
> because employers won't employ people with hidden disabilities, inc mh problems, that may mean they have repeated time of work due to effect ts and side effects of their disability
> 
> So please don't patronise or disrespect
> 'The poor'
> Many of them are more intelligent than you know


The way our system 'works' at the moment is scandalous. The money is there, but people in real need don't seem to be getting it and it's the people employed to make sure they do are to blame for its failings. It's disgusting. The bedroom tax is ridiculous, the better off can afford to pay it, the less well off can't afford to move, nor should they have to. Government after government address the system, but seemingly make it worse not better.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Totally disagree, I think KK cares very much about the country he loves and is worried along with millions of British people where Brexit takes us.
> 
> If American person posted things against Trump and his cronies does it mean they hate USA and their identity?
> If a Russian person is against Putin means they are against Russia?
> 
> If you critical of political parties and direction they lead to doesn't mean you hate your country!!!
> 
> I am vitally concerned about the extremist party in power in Poland and many supporters are happy to accuse me of betrayal, just because I stand for gay people rights etc... which apparently is against "Polish Catholic identity".
> 
> What about protesters in Hong Kong ?
> They hate HK obviously?


Excellent post and thank you!


----------



## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> Or even a posy ?
> 
> enguinenguinenguin


For you


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Someone I know here took his family to Gibraltar because his children were bullied at school for being Polish.


When?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> It was blatantly obvious after the 2016 referendum that anything unpleasant.happening to a foreigner was deemed a direct result of Brexit and received the appropriate headlines. ''Polish builder has shed torched'' is one which comes to memory. My neighbour's shed, the same night, was broken into and his brand new lawn mower stolen. He is British so it didn't make the headlines. . . . and so on, and so forth.


You forget a MP was brutally murdered for, "Not putting Britain first", during the gerrymandering, sorry referendum.


----------



## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> Totally disagree, I think KK cares very much about the country he loves and is worried along with millions of British people where Brexit takes us.
> 
> If American person posted things against Trump and his cronies does it mean they hate USA and their identity?
> If a Russian person is against Putin means they are against Russia?
> 
> If you critical of political parties and direction they lead to doesn't mean you hate your country!!!
> 
> I am vitally concerned about the extremist party in power in Poland and many supporters are happy to accuse me of betrayal, just because I stand for gay people rights etc... which apparently is against "Polish Catholic identity".
> 
> What about protesters in Hong Kong ?
> They hate HK obviously?


Non of them repeatedly belittle, disrespect or spout hatful untruths about their country, like kk does
Bash the politicos by all means, they're fair game, as always
But to do it to British people and the country as a whole, well......
Be thankful one lives in a country that allows one to do that
Or
Bugger off to one of the ones you feel are better


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> You forget a MP was brutally murdered for, "Not putting Britain first", during the gerrymandering, sorry referendum.


A mentally ill loner; no I did not forget. PLUS, I thought she was murdered _before_ the Brexit result came thro', not after.


----------



## rona

Maybe Gibraltar has a problem bigger than England.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> A mentally ill loner; no I did not forget. PLUS, I thought she was murdered _before_ the Brexit result came thro', not after.


Indeed, it certainly fuelled him though didn't it, especially after the Farage Nazi- like poster revealed at the time.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, it certainly fuelled him though didn't it, especially after the Farage Nazi- like poster revealed at the time.


Did it?

How do you know what effected such an obviously tortured mind?

I wouldn't even hazard a guess after dealing with a schizophrenic relation


----------



## Elles

Bullying happens everywhere and everywhen, nothing to do with Brexit.

https://www.expatica.com/de/educati...assroom-terror-bullied-expat-children-101609/


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Maybe Gibraltar has a problem bigger than England.


If you refer to Gibraltar overall Brexit threatens our economy and sovereignty much more than it will affect UK.


----------



## cheekyscrip

mrs phas said:


> For you
> View attachment 411075


Thank you!!!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> If you refer to Gibraltar overall Brexit threatens our economy and sovereignty much more than it will affect UK.


So, is that why prejudice is worse there? 
Because, apart from the odd pockets it's not a problem here.


----------



## Elles

It’s a shame, but did the people of Ireland and Gibraltar campaign against the referendum and make their point known to the public and government beforehand? Not that it would have made any difference. Even when we leave the Eu, there’s nothing to stop us getting along, or at least there shouldn’t be. Seems every European country is as nationalist as the next and don’t get on at all really and the Eu hasn’t really helped that.


----------



## rona

Hate crime racial or religious prosecutions were actually down 2% for the years 2016/2017 even though more were recorded, much of that is put down to better police recording.

prosecutions
12,004 in the year 16/17
11881 in 17/18


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> So, is that why prejudice is worse there?
> Because, apart from the odd pockets it's not a problem here.


I said nothing about the local people but some English people who feel they are superior to us lowly EU born folk....

I got that years back in UK but according to my friends in UK it is worse.

Not reported because what are you going to report?

Your child not invited to birthday parties any more?
Neighbours ignoring you? Boss talking only to English staff and cutting you short?

This happens to people I know.

You feel the cold shoulder and being unwelcome.
Or less welcome.

Obviously not everyone.


----------



## rona

All hate crime prosecutions are also falling 

15,442 2015/16
14,480 2016/17
14,151 2017/18


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Your child not invited to birthday parties any more?
> Neighbours ignoring you?
> 
> You feel the cold shoulder and being unwelcome.
> Or less welcome.
> 
> Obviously not everyone.


So, we work on someones hurt feelings rather than facts? 
I missed loads of birthday parties when I was young because I didn't live in the village but outside.......hate crime


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> So, we work on someones hurt feelings rather than facts?
> I missed loads of birthday parties when I was young because I didn't live in the village but outside.......hate crime


No, they are no longer invited because of their wrong nationality.
Children are called rude names because of their nationality.
Was that in your case?
Really? Ever called Polisher? Told to go back?


----------



## mrs phas

cheekyscrip said:


> No, they are no longer invited because of their wrong nationality.
> Children are called rude names because of their nationality.
> Was that in your case?
> Really? Ever called Polisher? Told to go back?


we moved to suffolk, a little village called polstead, from the east end of london, in 1970
the villagers spoke a completely different language to us
every villager, every single one, were related in some way or another, some several times
we got spat at, told to go home, invited to nothing, cakes and harvest festival tokens, refused or binned ( in front of us) told we didnt belong, werent allowed to join the girls brigade, had to stand on the school bus, had gum put in our hair
and on and on
Thus proving there have ALWAYS been twats and idiots, and, there always will be


----------



## cheekyscrip

mrs phas said:


> we moved to suffolk, a little village called polstead, from the east end of london, in 1970
> the villagers spoke a completely different language to us
> every villager, every single one, were related in some way or another, some several times
> we got spat at, told to go home, invited to nothing, cakes and harvest festival tokens, refused or binned ( in front of us) told we didnt belong, werent allowed to join the girls brigade, had to stand on the school bus, had gum put in our hair
> and on and on
> Thus proving there have ALWAYS been twats and idiots, and, there always will be


Exactly. So imagine if the twats get the excuse like Britain First....
Nationalist propaganda escalates such behaviour and it is a shame if you or anyone else was treated like that only because " you are not from OUR village" literally or a figure of speech.


----------



## mrs phas

Britain First?
what next? 
trotting out Tommy Robinson as a typical briton?

for every person or organisation that is racist, xenophobic, full of hatred et al
there are thousands of normal, neighboroughly, intelligent, friendly, helpful, welcoming etc etc people in this country
we even put up with, and allow, haters, like some on this thread, to tarnish us all with the same brush full of hatred, venom and spite, whilst respecting their right to have an opinion

Take the blinkers off and see the real people, who make this country, such a lovely place to live, and reside, in


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly. So imagine if the twats get the excuse like Britain First....
> Nationalist propaganda escalates such behaviour and it is a shame if you or anyone else was treated like that only because " you are not from OUR village" literally or a figure of speech.


Yeah. I had a hard time returning to the NE from SW England in the early '80s. I had a "confused" accent which led to comments such as, "You're not from around here" and "You're not one of us". Then, the idiots in a pub who thought I was Irish which automatically meant IRA.

And I'm English! I dread to think what others are going through.

I thought we'd left those days behind with a more tolerant society where it didn't matter where you came from.

Brexit has brought those days back :Grumpy. It's sad.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Brexit has brought those days back


No it hasn't. go look at the figures. The only rise in so called hate crimes is gender or homophobic related, even you can't blame that on Brexit


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Yeah. I had a hard time returning to the NE from SW England in the early '80s. I had a "confused" accent which led to comments such as, "You're not from around here" and "You're not one of us". Then, the idiots in a pub who thought I was Irish which automatically meant IRA.
> 
> And I'm English! I dread to think what others are going through.
> 
> I thought we'd left those days behind with a more tolerant society where it didn't matter where you came from.
> *
> Brexit has brought those days back :Grumpy. It's sad*.


proof please
provide statistics, graphs, etc that show this to be true
not anecdotes, but true, irrefutable proof, published AND verified, that BREXIT and brexit alone has, as you say, brought those days back


----------



## rona

mrs phas said:


> proof please
> provide statistics, graphs, etc that show this to be true
> not anecdotes, but true, irrefutable proof, published AND verified, that BREXIT and brexit alone has, as you say, brought those days back


I'll give you the opposite 
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/hate-crime-reports

To be honest, what some on here class as a hate crime, I'm not surprised that more are being reported. Plus of course that site where you just have to click on that big red button to report a so called hate crime.
if they had to get off their arses and go to a police station and face a police officer with their reports, I wonder how much the reporting of such rimes would go down.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Told to go back?


I've never had this but I've said it to other's, well "go back home" not because of race or anything like that, just that they were being dickheads


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I've never had this but I've said it to other's, well "go back home" not because of race or anything like that, just that they were being dickheads


BoJo is a [email protected]@@head and our PM!


----------



## kimthecat

Just so you dont think everyone hates Polish people . 

Hillingdon Council
@Hillingdon
·
Jun 28
This morning (28 June), during a special ceremony at the Polish Air Force Memorial in South Ruislip, we had the honour of unveiling two commemorative boards to mark the contribution of the Polish Navy during World War Two. #Hillingdon


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> BoJo is a [email protected]@@head and our PM!


He lies. he promised to fight against the 3rd runway at Heathrow. 
I wonder now that's he's the boss he will cancel it . I dont think so .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> He lies. he promised to fight against the 3rd runway at Heathrow.
> I wonder now that's he's the boss he will cancel it . I dont think so .


I hope not, his other favoured option was the Kent marshes


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> Thus proving there have ALWAYS been twats and idiots, and, there always will be


True, but Brexit has given them a platform to abuse others. They believe Political Correctness has silenced them. Now, we have Trump, Farage and Johnson barking racist comments.

Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan would never have referred black people as having 'Watermelon smiles', nor Muslims looking like, 'Letterboxes' for example.



mrs phas said:


> Britain First?
> what next?
> trotting out Tommy Robinson as a typical briton?
> 
> for every person or organisation that is racist, xenophobic, full of hatred et al
> there are thousands of normal, neighboroughly, intelligent, friendly, helpful, welcoming etc etc people in this country
> we even put up with, and allow, haters, like some on this thread, to tarnish us all with the same brush full of hatred, venom and spite, whilst respecting their right to have an opinion
> 
> Take the blinkers off and see the real people, who make this country, such a lovely place to live, and reside, in


Give the media a chance they probably will do. They 'normalised' Farage after all and have given Yaxley-Lennon exposure when EDL leader.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, it certainly fuelled him though didn't it, especially after the Farage Nazi- like poster revealed at the time.


 I honestly don't know what fuelled him, but certainly a week before the referendum I don't think anyone really expected a Brexit result; and I have no idea whether Jo Cox was for remain or leave (tho' I thought remain). Whatever her leanings, she was just a young woman doing her job. What a terrible story that was.


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> we moved to suffolk, a little village called polstead, from the east end of london, in 1970
> the villagers spoke a completely different language to us
> every villager, every single one, were related in some way or another, some several times
> we got spat at, told to go home, invited to nothing, cakes and harvest festival tokens, refused or binned ( in front of us) told we didnt belong, werent allowed to join the girls brigade, had to stand on the school bus, had gum put in our hair
> and on and on
> Thus proving there have ALWAYS been twats and idiots, and, there always will be


That is dreadful, but I absolutely agree that it happens, and you do not have to be foreign to be at the receiving end of it. I was told not long after I left a northern university and moved to London for work (for what it's worth, by someone educated to a far lesser degree than I was) that . . . get this . . . ''I find it difficult to believe, _with your accent_, that you managed to get these qualifications''. So, to get a degree in languages, you have to have a London accent to start with? Maybe a Home Counties twang?
My son, born and bred in London, was told by his teacher ''You have a northern accent like your mother''. When he said he had made a ''round trip'' to somewhere in the holidays, the same teacher told him that this was not an acceptable phrase in English (really?? I thought it was) and he ''must have picked it up from his northern mother''. I did wonder why this kept happening, but decided not to complain to the high master as I thought my son would have been embarrassed. The fact is, if you are English, you have the Devil's own job proving you are being victimised.


----------



## Elles

Some people are dreadful, but people also brought about human rights, the nhs, animal protection laws, the vote, democracy and all kinds of good stuff. I expect most, if not all of us have put up with all kinds of crap from other people, but also a lot of good.


----------



## KittenKong

Twitter:

:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Boris got stuck into Corbyn today in Parliament,

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/95823...-body-snatchers-attack-on-corbyn-over-brexit/

"BORIS Johnson has ripped Jeremy Corbyn to shreds in his first Commons speech as PM, accusing him of being captured by 'body snatchers' like in the hit film.

The new Prime Minister tore into the Labour boss at his first outing in Parliament today, saying he has been "captured, jugulated and reprogrammed" by his Remainer mates into backing another referendum."

He has a point. Corbyn isa hypocrite. I guess if Labour back Remain , they have more chance of winning an election if one is called?

Lib- Dems have always been for Remain and they have a new leader. Shes been over shadowed in the press by Boris becoming PM. 
I would vote for LIB dem in an election . I dont trust the extreme Cons and Labour parties we have now. .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> That is dreadful, but I absolutely agree that it happens, and you do not have to be foreign to be at the receiving end of it. I was told not long after I left a northern university and moved to London for work (for what it's worth, by someone educated to a far lesser degree than I was) that . . . get this . . . ''I find it difficult to believe, _with your accent_, that you managed to get these qualifications''. So, to get a degree in languages, you have to have a London accent to start with? Maybe a Home Counties twang?
> My son, born and bred in London, was told by his teacher ''You have a northern accent like your mother''. When he said he had made a ''round trip'' so somewhere in the holidays, the same teacher told him that this was not an acceptable phrase in English (really?? I thought it was) and he ''must have picked it up from his northern mother''. I did wonder why this kept happening, but decided not to complain to the high master as I thought my son would have been embarrassed. The fact is, if you are English, you have the Devil's own job proving you are being victimised.


Interesting how English are bent on discrimination. Superior English English versus not so good English. Charming.
I suspect this is very much because the North is and was poorer. I lived in Hull...


kimthecat said:


> Boris got stuck into Corbyn today in Parliament,
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/95823...-body-snatchers-attack-on-corbyn-over-brexit/
> 
> "BORIS Johnson has ripped Jeremy Corbyn to shreds in his first Commons speech as PM, accusing him of being captured by 'body snatchers' like in the hit film.
> 
> The new Prime Minister tore into the Labour boss at his first outing in Parliament today, saying he has been "captured, jugulated and reprogrammed" by his Remainer mates into backing another referendum."
> 
> He has a point. Corbyn isa hypocrite. I guess if Labour back Remain , they have more chance of winning an election if one is called?
> 
> Lib- Dems have always been for Remain and they have a new leader. Shes been over shadowed in the press by Boris becoming PM.
> I would vote for LIB dem in an election . I dont trust the extreme Cons and Labour parties we have now. .


I would. Gosh... you came to the Dark Side of the lefty????


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Boris got stuck into Corbyn today in Parliament,
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/95823...-body-snatchers-attack-on-corbyn-over-brexit/
> 
> "BORIS Johnson has ripped Jeremy Corbyn to shreds in his first Commons speech as PM, accusing him of being captured by 'body snatchers' like in the hit film.
> 
> The new Prime Minister tore into the Labour boss at his first outing in Parliament today, saying he has been "captured, jugulated and reprogrammed" by his Remainer mates into backing another referendum."
> 
> He has a point. Corbyn isa hypocrite. I guess if Labour back Remain , they have more chance of winning an election if one is called?
> 
> Lib- Dems have always been for Remain and they have a new leader. Shes been over shadowed in the press by Boris becoming PM.
> I would vote for LIB dem in an election . I dont trust the extreme Cons and Labour parties we have now. .


Arguably, people do have the right to change their stance, just as Jo Johnson has suddenly became a hard Brexit supporter on being given a cabinet position, just as Theresa May did on becoming PM.

I'm not convinced of Labour's apparent new position under its present leadership though. I was forwarded a Corbyn speech which chose to ignore Brexit and focus on the NHS etc. He's looking old and tired, rather like how Theresa May became.

The question is, will he stand down before the next election, especially if Johnson is well ahead in the polls which will be very likely through media inspiration. Or, will he sweat it out and resign before being pushed following a humiliating general election defeat?


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I would vote for LIB dem in an election . I dont trust the extreme Cons and Labour parties we have now. .


Really?

After listening to her a few times I deduced that she is on a power trip and doesn't seem to have any grasp on reality. It's like a small petulant child talking. I reckon she's much more dangerous than either Boris or Corbyn

Plus her ruddy voice is so grating


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Really?
> 
> After listening to her a few times I deduced that she is on a power trip and doesn't seem to have any grasp on reality. It's like a small petulant child talking. I reckon she's much more dangerous than either Boris or Corbyn
> 
> Plus her ruddy voice is so grating


Couldn't agree more!

I've been a Lib Dem supporter all my life,but after listening to her have changed my mind!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Really?
> 
> After listening to her a few times I deduced that she is on a power trip and doesn't seem to have any grasp on reality. It's like a small petulant child talking. I reckon she's much more dangerous than either Boris or Corbyn
> 
> Plus her ruddy voice is so grating


I've listened to all sides of the debate and never got to hear from someone who believes the Lib Dems to be more dangerous than Johnson and Corbyn!


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Interesting how English are bent on discrimination. Superior English English versus not so good English. Charming.
> I suspect this is very much because the North is and was poorer. I lived in Hull...


Nothing to do with Brexit. Probably 'enabled' by "Lock,Stock and two Smoking Barrels"


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I've listened to all sides of the debate and never got to hear from someone who believes the Lib Dems to be more dangerous than Johnson and Corbyn!


I didn't say that now did I?


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> even you can't blame that on Brexit


 You want to bet! I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> He's looking old and tired, rather like how Theresa May became.


 Well, he's 70 so maybe it's time he thought about retiring. I never knew he'd been married three times (apparently),


----------



## Elles

I agree. We English people do think we’re superior, because we are. I can’t wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won’t get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don’t get me started on them. Think they’re owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don’t, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.

Happy now? 

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I agree. We English people do think we're superior, because we are. I can't wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won't get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don't get me started on them. Think they're owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don't, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> :Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I agree. We English people do think we're superior, because we are. I can't wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won't get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don't get me started on them. Think they're owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don't, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> :Hilarious



:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

Well yesterday I decided to enjoy the hot sunny weather and will be doing the same again today after being sent home again due to the air conditioning not working at work. Temperatures are already 29 degrees in Amsterdam today and are set to be over 37 degrees. In the Netherlands (temperature was recorded at the weather station in Gilze-Rijen between Breda and Tilburg) it reached over 40 degrees yesterday and broke all records since records began over here:- https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...mperature-reaches-new-record-at-40-4-celsius/

Thankfully Brexit does not affect the weather. 

My parents are coming over today by Eurostar and are due to arrive at 16:11 for 2 weeks. I am hoping there are no problems on their journey with delays (I have been keeping an eye on the Amsterdam Eurostar service over the last few days and the Amsterdam direct service via Brussels seems to have been running fine). Iam looking forward to seeing them.

Thank you for the stats yesterday rona.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Really?
> 
> After listening to her a few times I deduced that she is on a power trip and doesn't seem to have any grasp on reality. It's like a small petulant child talking. I reckon she's much more dangerous than either Boris or Corbyn
> 
> Plus her ruddy voice is so grating


Ive always generally voted liberal except last time I voted Green. Ours is a safe seat so its been Tory for many years.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Interesting how English are bent on discrimination. Superior English English versus not so good English. Charming.


How racist is this! It is human nature of people to want to feel superior to others for _any _reason and regardless of nationality etc Other nationalities do this too. Parisians do !



> I would. Gosh... you came to the Dark Side of the lefty????


I have no idea what you mean.

As for discrimination , I lived in a council house in the 70s. I was made to feel so ashamed that I denied I lived in one and used to get people to drop me off at the end of the road.

You know what pisses me off now is that i get attacked by lefties for buying mine , its greedy and selfish ! You cant win sometimes .
As for bullying try being deaf, get called deaf dog , cloth ears , people playing jokes , treated like you're really stupid . Ok so sometimes I do stupid things but its nothing to do with hearing loss.

Walking funny due to RA , get called spazz and have complete strangers copy the way you walk behind you .

How do I deal with this ? I do what I was taught as a child , stop crying and get on with it.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> I agree. We English people do think we're superior, because we are. I can't wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won't get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don't get me started on them. Think they're owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don't, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> :Hilarious


:Hilarious OMG I feel so bad now. The young polish couple that lived opposite , they had a baby and my neighbour crocheted a shawl and we sent congratulations cards and a babygro . I really dont know what came over us


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

Looks like someone on Twitter agrees with me. 
[AJ]
#FBPE
@YorkshireLad_87
·
13h
Jeremy Corbyn would rather attend some tinpot rally with a few hundred Corbynistas than actually do something productive to fight this hard right govt and get rid of them

He's a protestor, not a leader - the country deserves a strong opposition

#CorbynOut #BorisOut #NotMyPM


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Looks like someone on Twitter agrees with me.
> [AJ]
> #FBPE
> @YorkshireLad_87
> ·
> 13h
> Jeremy Corbyn would rather attend some tinpot rally with a few hundred Corbynistas than actually do something productive to fight this hard right govt and get rid of them
> 
> He's a protestor, not a leader - the country deserves a strong opposition
> 
> #CorbynOut #BorisOut #NotMyPM


Absolutely agree. Labour should have never got him in the first place!!!
Their stupid feuding cost us a country!!!

David was the man for the job not totally unelectable Ed The Weirdo !
Ed might be a lovely man but this is how he comes across on media.

Boris is a total **** but on media comes across as funny.

Cameron was charming and sleek.

There you go.

Doesn't Labour have any appealing candidates???

Blair won because looked young and enthusiastic.

Grab Ovie (Love Island) and we will have better chance to win next elections!!!

Not that I am watching :Wideyed


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> Yeah. I had a hard time returning to the NE from SW England in the early '80s. I had a "confused" accent which led to comments such as, "You're not from around here" and "You're not one of us". Then, the idiots in a pub who thought I was Irish which automatically meant IRA.
> 
> And I'm English! I dread to think what others are going through.
> 
> I thought we'd left those days behind with a more tolerant society where it didn't matter where you came from.
> 
> Brexit has brought those days back :Grumpy. It's sad.


If anyone round here said 'you're not one of us' you must have done something to tick them off


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Doesn't Labour have any appealing candidates???
> 
> Blair won because looked young and enthusiastic.


Blair was also a very competent politician. Though I'm on the left to him I stand by my belief he's been the best PM in my lifetime. Never thought I'd say this, but I would settle for John Major seeing the rubbish in parliament nowadays, for the moment.

Best Choice for Labour leader- David Lammy by far, but would settle for Tom Watson or Keith Starmer.


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> I agree. We English people do think we're superior, because we are. I can't wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won't get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don't get me started on them. Think they're owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don't, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> :Hilarious


you win the internet right now


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Blair was also a very competent politician. Though I'm on the left to him I stand by my belief he's been the best PM in my lifetime. Never thought I'd say this, but I would settle for John Major seeing the rubbish in parliament nowadays, for the moment.
> 
> Best Choice for Labour leader- David Lammy by far, but would settle for Tom Watson or Keith Starmer.


Starmer.

For those who need experts.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I agree. We English people do think we're superior, because we are. I can't wait to go out in the morning and find myself a lowly foreigner to spit on. They should all go home, then they won't get bullied will they. Stinking, criminal, foreigners taking our jobs and scrounging. As for northerners, don't get me started on them. Think they're owed a living and we should keep their stinking mines and steelworks open. If the workshy commoners actually want a job and most of them don't, they should get on their bike and find one. Just lazy if you ask me and if they learned to speak properly maybe someone would employ them.
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> :Hilarious


If I haven't met you I would have thought Annunziata joined our forum (for inferior cat slaves, but then even good folk from the Shires know we are inferior to cats).


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious OMG I feel so bad now. The young polish couple that lived opposite , they had a baby and my neighbour crocheted a shawl and we sent congratulations cards and a babygro . I really dont know what came over us


That is the un English heat wave ...soon you will be as right as rain...

@MilleD why but why you take ironic posts in ernest!

Must be the heat...

Can we expose BoJo ... he might melt?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> That is the un English heat wave ...soon you will be as right as rain...


oh, forgot you dont get sarcasm , it might be best if you ignore posts you dont understand or ask if it serious or not.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> oh, forgot you dont get sarcasm , it might be best if you ignore posts you dont understand or ask if it serious or not.


It was sarcasm on sarcasm ... with underbelly of ironic... but obviously lost in translation 
Heck of a bother to try to be sardonic in your second language!!!
Try!!!

My British friend after referendum told me " Even if you are Polish I am still your friend" 

Honestly didn't know whether to hug her or to slap her!!!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Heck of a bother to try to be sardonic in your second language!!!
> Try!!!


oh, never mind , then . Im sure you'll get better with practice


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> oh, never mind , then . Im sure you'll get better with practice


Wot do you think me do here???



Way to go.., way to go....

If my English did not improve after nine years here you all are to blame!!!


----------



## KittenKong

AlexPed2393 said:


> If anyone round here said 'you're not one of us' you must have done something to tick them off


Yeah, I guess having a different regional dialect or supporting a rival football team might have something to do with it. Not a football fan for the record.

I'm certainly and will never be one of the pro Leave lobby which is something to be proud of!


----------



## KittenKong

While my politics and generally moderate Labour I try to be impartial politically here, ready to give praise or criticism to anyone.

However, I fail to understand how, with respect, anyone who's a Tory supporter can call themselves an animal lover.

The barbaric Foxhunting is firmly back on the Tory agenda

Edit- seems this is an old article seeing it mentions Johnson as London Mayor. Doesn't change anything though...


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I didn't say that now did I?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> While my politics and generally moderate Labour I try to be impartial politically here, ready to give praise or criticism to anyone.
> 
> However, I fail to understand how, with respect, anyone who's a Tory supporter can call themselves an animal lover.
> 
> The barbaric Foxhunting is firmly back on the Tory agenda
> 
> Edit- seems this is an old article seeing it mentions Johnson as London Mayor. Doesn't change anything though...
> 
> View attachment 411311


I thought it was Jeremy Hunt, not Boris who said he'd bring back fox hunting if he became PM?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 411312


Yes but that wasn't the sum total of Kimthecats post was it now?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> While my politics and generally moderate Labour I try to be impartial politically here, ready to give praise or criticism to anyone.
> 
> However, I fail to understand how, with respect, anyone who's a Tory supporter can call themselves an animal lover.
> 
> The barbaric Foxhunting is firmly back on the Tory agenda
> 
> Edit- seems this is an old article seeing it mentions Johnson as London Mayor. Doesn't change anything though...
> 
> View attachment 411311


It was said after his cat was attacked by a fox and he's never bothered since.......does that change anything?

No.......I don't suppose it does for you


----------



## rona

Can't understand this, all those people whinging about Brexit hurting business and finance are now all for Brexit with a deal and it's only a no deal Brexit going to do that *? :Wideyed*


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Can't understand this, all those people whinging about Brexit hurting business and finance are now all for Brexit with a deal and it's only a no deal Brexit going to do that *? :Wideyed*


Deal Brexit will costs us about 3.2% of our economy and Hard Brexit 9% according to BOE. That is obviously simplified but if you look at it from the job market point of view?

Shrinking economy leaves people unemployed which in return sis shrinking economy.... which is called recession.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> As for northerners,


 I had to take mi ferret out of mi pocket in t'ot weather.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> maybe someone would employ them.


Surely not! I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole:Hilarious.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I do what I was taught as a child , stop crying and get on with it.


 How right you are!! Whatever happened to me at school, my mother would just tell me to get on with it and stand up for myself; and in those days we had never heard of counselling, or compensation for hurt feelings. Some people make a living out of compo these days, they go from one claim to another.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> That is the un English heat wave ...soon you will be as right as rain...
> 
> @MilleD why but why you take ironic posts in ernest!
> 
> Must be the heat...
> 
> Can we expose BoJo ... he might melt?


You need to explain what you are referring to? I promise you, I don't take things in Ernest unless they come across that they were said in Ernest.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> You need to explain what you are referring to? I promise you, I don't take things in Ernest unless they come across that they were said in Ernest.


The Importance of Being Ernest


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> The Importance of Being Ernest


Dear Oscar ..... I knew him well!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> My British friend after referendum told me " Even if you are Polish I am still your friend"
> 
> Honestly didn't know whether to hug her or to slap her!!!


What a horrible thing to say. Clearly she/he is just another horrible bigot.



rona said:


> Can't understand this, all those people whinging about Brexit hurting business and finance are now all for Brexit with a deal and it's only a no deal Brexit going to do that *? :Wideyed*


A reminder from 2016











Calvine said:


> How right you are!! Whatever happened to me at school, my mother would just tell me to get on with it and stand up for myself; and in those days we had never heard of counselling, or compensation for hurt feelings. Some people make a living out of compo these days, they go from one claim to another.


Something to do with more publicity for post traumatic stress etc. Joining the EEC/EU suddenly hasn't made people 'soft' all of a sudden.
Those detention centres where inmates suffered from terrible abuse, not always just physical for example that had been brushed under the carpet for years until recent times. I can go on.

Having said that, it could be argued things have gone too far the other way of course.

But that wouldn't justify the return of teachers having the right to physically punish children for one thing.


----------



## kimthecat

Police looking for perpetrator of hate crime .

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-march-abuse-london-hate-crime-a9023996.html

I doubt if they will find out who she is .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> .


Is that your last comment on this thread?


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Is that your last comment on this thread?


:Hilarious No ! I posted a link to a film clip on twitter and then thought better of it because of the comments. I found an article in the Independent and posted that instead.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious No !


Sigh................it's just going to go on & on& on & on & on & on &on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on.......


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Sigh................it's just going to go on & on& on & on & on & on &on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on.......


Like the Duracell Bunny


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Oscar Wilde eh? A prime example of how far we’ve come. Someone as talented would be lauded, not imprisoned these days.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Police looking for perpetrator of hate crime .
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-march-abuse-london-hate-crime-a9023996.html
> 
> I doubt if they will find out who she is .


"the woman wearing clothing commonly associated with female followers of Islam"

Lulwut as they say. 'Female followers of Islam', is it a new song? Reminds me of






Is it some kind of pc not to mention what the clothing actually is?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Oscar Wilde eh? A prime example of how far we've come. Someone as talented would be lauded, not imprisoned these days.


Funny old world in't it?

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-c...bank-note-to-depict-mathematician-alan-turing

*Bank of England's next £50 bank note to depict mathematician Alan Turing*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Funny old world in't it?
> 
> https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-c...bank-note-to-depict-mathematician-alan-turing
> 
> *Bank of England's next £50 bank note to depict mathematician Alan Turing*


At long last!!!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Police looking for perpetrator of hate crime .
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-march-abuse-london-hate-crime-a9023996.html
> 
> I doubt if they will find out who she is .


What a delightful human being. I wonder if she would have done that if you could see her face.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

Brexit has enabled a hard right power grab & opened the door to the disaster capitalists. Critical thinkers like George warned long ago of this threat.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ris-johnsons-government-of-all-the-lobbyists/


----------



## KittenKong

You'd think they were deliberately fuelling conflict, then Raab doesn't have a good reputation for being bright exactly.

Scotland as a region of England? Really???


----------



## KittenKong

Reports coming in that the Johnson government are spending £100m on distributing leaflets in every UK household to advertise a no deal Brexit. Plenty of Union flag banners and pleas to unite in Dunkirk spirit fashion probably.

Seriously though, Cameron's leaflets gained widespread criticism for costing the taxpayer £9+m yet criticism of Johnson's plans have so far been silent from the same sources....


----------



## KittenKong

Don't know if this is genuine or satire?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Reports coming in that the Johnson government are spending £100m on distributing leaflets in every UK household to advertise a no deal Brexit. Plenty of Union flag banners and pleas to unite in Dunkirk spirit fashion probably.
> 
> Seriously though, Cameron's leaflets gained widespread criticism for costing the taxpayer £9+m yet criticism of Johnson's plans have so far been silent from the same sources....


Seriously though.....where do you get this crap?



KittenKong said:


> Don't know if this is genuine or satire?
> 
> View attachment 411643


----------



## noushka05

Calling all remoaners!!


----------



## rona

noushka05 said:


> Calling all remoaners!!


I should have known.
The oracle of twitter


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Reports coming in that the Johnson government are spending £100m on distributing leaflets in every UK household to advertise a no deal Brexit. Plenty of Union flag banners and pleas to unite in Dunkirk spirit fashion probably.
> 
> Seriously though, Cameron's leaflets gained widespread criticism for costing the taxpayer £9+m yet criticism of Johnson's plans have so far been silent from the same sources....


Maybe no-one has yet commented as no-one heard about it (and it hasn't happened yet). This is honestly the first I heard about it, certainly. And you do say


KittenKong said:


> Reports coming in


 which doesn't sound to me as tho' it's definite . . . sounds like a rumour so far.
ETA: And we all know that Cameron spent far more than £9 million . . . the postage alone was far more than that.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I should have known.
> The oracle of twitter


Great idea isn't it?

Yes, its a pity more people dont use Twitter, it might force trhem out of their echo chamber. Twitter is crammed with scientists, experts in all fields, farmers, Doctors, politicians, NGOs envoronmentalists, activists all walks. You can witness people of integrity holding conmen like Farage & Johnson to account with actual facts on twitter. You can see first hand, what the climate scientists are saying. I highly recommend it


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Great idea isn't it?
> 
> Yes, its a pity more people dont use Twitter, it might force trhem out of their echo chamber. Twitter is crammed with scientists, experts in all fields, farmers, Doctors, politicians, NGOs envoronmentalists, activists all walks. You can witness people of integrity holding conmen like Farage & Johnson to account with actual facts on twitter. You can see first hand, what the climate scientists are saying. I highly recommend it


God no, I've never seen a place so ram packed with idiots that are convinced others give a monkey's what they think.

No thanks. Get enough of that of PF


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> No thanks. Get enough of that of PF


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> God no, I've never seen a place so ram packed with idiots that are convinced others give a monkey's what they think.
> 
> No thanks. Get enough of that of PF


You could always use it find facts like I do:Kiss


----------



## noushka05

noushka05 said:


> You could always use it find facts like I do:Kiss


OR to find some good satire from your fave satirist @MilleD


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> What a delightful human being. I wonder if she would have done that if you could see her face.


On bbc london news, it said she has been arrested.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> OR to find some good satire from your fave satirist @MilleD


Ack, him again!!!! 

Even more reason to avoid the Twittersphere


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> You could always use it find facts like I do:Kiss


Twitter isn't facts Noush.

You may think you are getting a broad spectrum of views but you are peeking into little echo chambers of opinion


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Seriously though.....where do you get this crap?


Even the most supportive of Johnson, 'The Sun' reported this, positively of course.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/29/bori...78751/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Ack, him again!!!!
> 
> Even more reason to avoid the Twittersphere


Brian Cox is on:Smuggrin Surely he alone is worth joining for :Kiss Did't I see a tweet of yours praising him recently?












AlexPed2393 said:


> Twitter isn't facts Noush.
> 
> You may think you are getting a broad spectrum of views but you are peeking into little echo chambers of opinion


I didn't say twitter was facts Alex, I said I use it to find out facts. I have thousands of followers & follow thousands more, my time if full of diverse opinions. But of course twitter can be an echo chamber. The press, facebook, all media outlets/social media can be echo chambers. This is why its always wise to fact check information. And as I said previously twitter is a good place to find facts as real scientists & experts from all fields are on there, or you can feed your confirmation bias if facts aren't your thing. I like to see what pathological liars, racists, propagandists are saying so I often check out Trump, Farage, the tory rights tweets. Its great to see their lies, misinformation & gaslighting debunked with facts & figures lol

Where would you recommend someone look to find reliable information Alex?


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> Brian Cox is on:Smuggrin Surely he alone is worth joining for :Kiss Did't I see a tweet of yours praising him recently?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say twitter was facts Alex, I said I use it to find out facts. I have thousands of followers & follow thousands more, my time if full of diverse opinions. But of course twitter can be an echo chamber. The press, facebook, all media outlets/social media can be echo chambers. This is why its always wise to fact check information. And as I said previously twitter is a good place to find facts as real scientists & experts from all fields are on there, or you can feed your confirmation bias if facts aren't your thing. I like to see what pathological liars, racists, propagandists are saying so I often check out Trump, Farage, the tory rights tweets. Its great to see their lies, misinformation & gaslighting debunked with facts & figures lol
> 
> Where would you recommend someone look to find reliable information Alex?


Another patronising post Noush,

PubMed, Google Scholar if I want to get all scientific on stuff


----------



## noushka05

AlexPed2393 said:


> Another patronising post Noush,
> 
> PubMed, Google Scholar if I want to get all scientific on stuff


God you really are a snowflake Alex:Hilarious.

I get my scientific stuff off twitter direct from the worlds leading scientists as I said. I asked where you would recommend someone to find reliable information - not necessarily science. '


----------



## Calvine

AlexPed2393 said:


> Another patronising post Noush,


 No changes there, then.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> God you really are a snowflake Alex:Hilarious.
> 
> I get my scientific stuff off twitter direct from the worlds leading scientists as I said. I asked where you would recommend someone to find reliable information - not necessarily science. '


You mentioned Scientists so I went to a scientific publication site. If I want an opinion on something I'll go to a news publication, BBC, Telegraph, whichever makes the most sense at that time


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


> God you really are a snowflake Alex:Hilarious.
> 
> I get my scientific stuff off twitter direct from the worlds leading scientists as I said. I asked where you would recommend someone to find reliable information - not necessarily science. '


Not really a snowflake, just when the post is written in a way that makes the person you are replying to look dumb, inferior or lacking of your godly knowledge then I'm just pointing it out. I don't talk about this sort of stuff around the dinner table but I still expect people to have some manners online.


----------



## Magyarmum

noushka05 said:


> Brian Cox is on:Smuggrin Surely he alone is worth joining for :Kiss Did't I see a tweet of yours praising him recently?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say twitter was facts Alex, I said I use it to find out facts. I have thousands of followers & follow thousands more, my time if full of diverse opinions. But of course twitter can be an echo chamber. The press, facebook, all media outlets/social media can be echo chambers. This is why its always wise to fact check information. And as I said previously twitter is a good place to find facts as real scientists & experts from all fields are on there, or you can feed your confirmation bias if facts aren't your thing. I like to see what pathological liars, racists, propagandists are saying so I often check out Trump, Farage, the tory rights tweets. Its great to see their lies, misinformation & gaslighting debunked with facts & figures lol
> 
> Where would you recommend someone look to find reliable information Alex?


If you have thousands of followers, follow thousands more and your time is full of diverse opinions. And if you're conversing with the world's leading scientists and experts (presumably) in everything, why do you bother with plebs like us?


----------



## Elles

*"Snowflake* is a 2010s derogatory slang term for a person, implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness, an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or are overly-emotional, easily offended, and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult."


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> *"Snowflake* is a 2010s derogatory slang term for a person, implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness, an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or are overly-emotional, easily offended, and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult."


OMG remind you of anyone here?


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.ft.com/content/65eb7ffe...egmentId=635a35f9-12b4-dbf5-9fe6-6b8e6ffb143e

The EU must prepare for a no-deal Brexit. 
Wolfgang Münchau

This is a dangerous moment for the EU. It says that it is prepared for a no-deal Brexit, but we all know this is not true.

The European Commission has readied itself on a technical level. But this is not the kind of preparedness that matters. EU leaders have not yet braced their voters for the economic impact of a large EU country leaving the customs union and the single market overnight. The EU is right not to take the new British prime minister's provocations at face value. They are designed for a domestic audience. But when the rest of Europe's economies are slowing down sharply, it must prepare for the shock of a no-deal Brexit. I would advise EU leaders to look in the mirror and test whether their determination to uphold the Irish backstop would still hold in the hours before the advancing deadline.

It is one thing to claim solidarity with Ireland as a principle; another to tell factory workers who stand to lose their jobs that this is a price worth paying. The tough negotiating stance was, at least in part, informed by assuming a near-zero probability for a no-deal outcome. I have argued before that this assumption was complacent. The probability was at no point anywhere close to zero. It increased when Boris Johnson emerged as the winner of the Conservative leadership contest. But it never made sense to attach ultra-low probabilities to a legal default position. Especially when there were no House of Commons majorities for the alternatives under European law: ratification of the withdrawal agreement or unilateral revocation of Article 50 by the UK. An unintended consequence of the campaign for a second referendum was to increase the probability of no-deal further. The campaigners managed to kill off Theresa May's withdrawal agreement while failing to generate enough momentum to pave the way to revocation - a combination that left the UK in no-deal territory. Unwittingly, they turned themselves into the hard-Brexit campaign's useful idiots.

Remainers should have taken the deal. It would have ensured a close relationship with the EU while keeping the option of rejoining in the future open. A no-deal Brexit closes it for a generation. The EU has been complicit in this miscalculation. No one more so than Donald Tusk, the outgoing president of the European Council. He explicitly supported a second referendum and interfered in the European election campaign in the UK by supporting a pro-Remain candidate. His interventions had two simultaneous effects. It gave Remainers in the UK the false hope that the EU would intervene on their behalf, and be successful. And it led Europeans to underestimate the risk of a no-deal Brexit. Whenever I go back to Germany, there is always somebody asking whether the UK might reconsider. The German media covered Brexit almost exclusively from the perspective of the second referendum campaign.

These days, they write about Mr Johnson's buffoonery. A no-deal Brexit, its economic impact on regions and sectors, and on the EU's geostrategic interests are hard to spot on political radar screens. One reason is that the EU has been lucky during its many crises. Alexis Tsipras blinked during the Greek government's showdown with the Commission in 2015. So did the great Charles De Gaulle when he ended the so-called "empty chair" policy in 1966. If the leaders of Greece and France blinked, then so surely will Mr Johnson, a lesser figure. I think it would be unwise for the EU to lose sight of Brexit's uniqueness. The political incentives for Mr Johnson are different from those of non-departing EU leaders. First, the EU might want to reflect on its persistent failure to understand the support for Brexit in the UK, as evidenced by two general elections, one European election, a Brexit referendum, and the emergence of Mr Johnson as prime minister. There is a pattern here. EU leaders should also reflect on their own mistakes. They should have made it clear from the start that they would not extend the Brexit deadline in March this year. If they had followed this advice, the withdrawal treaty may have had a fighting chance. The tactical error they committed by turning Brexit into a three-way bet was foolish. Each step of the way - the European elections, the Tory leadership contest and the political dynamics that have followed - the UK moved further and further towards a hard Brexit. Only a fool would try to predict the course of British politics over the next three months. A no-deal Brexit is a possible outcome but not the only one. I expect Mr Johnson to try to unite the pro-Brexit vote, and to pitch himself against a splintered Remain opposition. This would seem to be an intelligent strategy. There is one prediction I am willing to make: if this ends in a no-deal Brexit, much of the EU will not have seen it coming. [email protected]


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Police looking for perpetrator of hate crime .
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-march-abuse-london-hate-crime-a9023996.html
> 
> I doubt if they will find out who she is .


If she was indeed a Muslim woman inciting hatred in this manner, I would be the first to agree she is no better than some white Union flag waving bigot abusing 'minority' groups.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I'm rather suspicious of this. While, if she was indeed a Muslim woman inciting hatred in this manner I would be the first to agree she is no better than some white Union flag waving bigot abusing 'minority' groups.
> 
> What surprised me was the mention of 'God' and 'Adam and Eve' who are relevant to the Holy Bible, not the Holy? Koran
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if this was staged.


Well that just about says it all.


----------



## OrientalSlave

KittenKong said:


> I'm rather suspicious of this. While, if she was indeed a Muslim woman inciting hatred in this manner I would be the first to agree she is no better than some white Union flag waving bigot abusing 'minority' groups.
> 
> What surprised me was the mention of 'God' and 'Adam and Eve' who are relevant to the Holy Bible, not the Holy? Koran
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if this was staged.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_in_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_in_Islam


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Well that just about says it all.





OrientalSlave said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_in_Islam
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_in_Islam


As I am not in any way religious, and that includes atheism, I concede my knowledge of religion is rather limited, I have no interest in it at all.

I have amended the post appropriately as I don't want quotes from Holy whatever's to cause a distraction to the topic in question, rather like any mention of Tony Blair causes an Iraq war and Lib Dems the coalition. Something we're all guilty of from time to time.

As the post was about abuse rather than religion itself, there is no place for it anywhere and from anyone.


----------



## KittenKong

It's been a week since he became Prime Minister. I wonder what reception he'll receive in Northern Ireland?:Hilarious

Now his fantasy no deal Brexit jingoism with magical trade deals could be under threat too.

Brexit, in any form, undermines the GF agreement pure and simple.









https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-well-block-uk-trade-deal-us-politicians-warn


----------



## AlexPed2393

noushka05 said:


>


Are these facts or opinions?


----------



## AlexPed2393

Elles said:


> *"Snowflake* is a 2010s derogatory slang term for a person, implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness, an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or are overly-emotional, easily offended, and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult."


I am at one with the snowflakes


----------



## KittenKong

A very good opinion piece here.

https://infacts.org/dont-believe-na...KJAK2ERHBXxu-fzFcFmNmq5qvq4EXMKWe44FclJAuFOUg


----------



## OrientalSlave

KittenKong said:


> As I am not in any way religious, and that includes atheism, I concede my knowledge of religion is rather limited, I have no interest in it at all.


I'm not religious either, but a bit of basic knowledge is helpful for sorting the wheat from the chaff, and there are all sorts of untruths & half-truths on the Internet.


----------



## KittenKong

I take this to be a threat. Obey, embrace 'their' leader or suffer the consequences?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I take this to be a threat. Obey, embrace 'their' leader or suffer the consequences?


By whom?

Who is the person who wrote that?


----------



## KittenKong

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm not religious either, but a bit of basic knowledge is helpful for sorting the wheat from the chaff, and there are all sorts of untruths & half-truths on the Internet.


Fair do's, but there's a remarkable amount of misinformation around that people do believe, such as what they read in their papers and the big red bus of course. Even Wikipedia isn't flawless.

Can we just leave it there and admit to my ignorance of religion, which I have already conceeded to?

Don't want to discuss it further thank you, not for my own embarrassment but my own lack of interest. Nothing to do with Brexit either!

Start a new thread if it interests anyone please.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> By whom?
> 
> Who is the person who wrote that?












"Damaging your prospects by booing 'your' leader", which can be taken as a threat.

Guess this vile person has never been to Scotland.


----------



## AlexPed2393

KittenKong said:


> I take this to be a threat. Obey, embrace 'their' leader or suffer the consequences?
> 
> View attachment 411771


How is this a threat? A new PM is talking to Nicola Sturgeon why not try and be civil and form a real conversation rather than just boo because that's all you can do.

Also if you were able to watch PMQ's Boris did talk about Scotland and Scotland going for independence from the UK and rejoining the EU, after we have left the EU is absurd


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-brexit-500m-plan-to-help-farmers-bx5pnx9qq









Reminds me of:









:Hilarious


----------



## OrientalSlave

KittenKong said:


> Fair do's, but there's a remarkable amount of misinformation around that people do believe, such as what they read in their papers and the big red bus of course. Even Wikipedia isn't flawless.


You are correct that Wikipedia isn't flawless, but it's fairly reliable, plus Google can always find alternative sources.

WRT the big red bus, BBC Radio 4 had a 'More or Less' program that conclusively debunked it. Unfortunately that program seems to no longer be available, but it's arguments are:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> If she was indeed a Muslim woman inciting hatred in this manner, I would be the first to agree she is no better than some white Union flag waving bigot abusing 'minority' groups.


Why wouldnt she be a muslim woman ?
It is shame it happened . I think religion can be a good thing , Im happy to go to any religious service but this type of behaviour just makes more people against it .
Religions need to modernise and be more accepting.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Why wouldnt she be a muslim woman ?
> It is shame it happened . I think religion can be a good thing , Im happy to go to any religious service but this type of behaviour just makes more people against it .
> Religions need to modernise and be more accepting.


He changed his full post. It's quoted a couple of times though.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> I take this to be a threat. Obey, embrace 'their' leader or suffer the consequences?
> 
> View attachment 411771


You take that as a threat?


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*The Government's No-Deal Brexit Preparations Guide and Complimentary Bodybag*
31st July 2019









*DEAR householder, this leaflet outlines the various preparations that British citizens should make for a No-Deal Brexit. Page 24 unfolds into a free human remains pouch. *

Your No-Deal Brexit is due to take place at midnight on October 31st. Halloween celebrations will be unaffected, though children should be advised the sweets they collect will be their last.

Following the No-Deal Brexit, the UK will regain sovereignity and control of its own future. It is no longer possible to leave the UK and you should not attempt to.

In the 14 days immediately following No-Deal Brexit continue attending your place of employment until it closes down and buy only what food you need while shops remain open. After 14 days there will no longer be employers or shops.

All BBC television and radio channels will be shuttered immediately to stop the spread of dangerous Project Fear rumours. The Prime Minister will make statements each night at 9pm on Sky Sports News, free to all households.

After 28 days a programme of conscription will begin for all able-bodied adults aged between 14 and 80. Anyone caring for infants or elderly persons should stop. Report to your local Sunlit Uplands Centre to await relocation.

It is important to remember that any negative symptoms of your No-Deal Brexit are caused by Remainers. Your town hall will post bounties.

Within 60 days the less necessary members of your household will have expired. Place them in the attached bag and put in the brown bin for recycling. Bodies placed in the grey bin will incur a fine.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> You take that as a threat?


"You're just damaging Scotland's prospects", by Booing Johnson can hardly be considered anything else can it?

It's like a child being told they can stay up late and enjoy ice cream if they behave themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Why wouldnt she be a muslim woman ?
> It is shame it happened . I think religion can be a good thing , Im happy to go to any religious service but this type of behaviour just makes more people against it .
> Religions need to modernise and be more accepting.


Something we can both agree on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Facts: today pound fell to 1.09 Euro.

As possibility of Hard Brexit is getting more real

This is what the world financial markets think.


----------



## Elles

No withdrawal deal and the chance of an early election, it’s hardly surprising. This should have been done and dusted and everyone moving forward by now.


----------



## Elles

It’s funny how there’s supposed to be a bunch of secret powerful people running the show, with Farage as their puppet, yet even with people voting to leave we still haven’t left yet. I start to wonder if there are even more secret, powerful people who want us to stay in.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> It's funny how there's supposed to be a bunch of secret powerful people running the show, with Farage as their puppet, yet even with people voting to leave we still haven't left yet. I start to wonder if there are even more secret, powerful people who want us to stay in.


There is a good reason to stay in.
Called economy. Means jobs and such some that common people need to get their daily turnip.
Just now our economy is shrinking and all our turnips are shrinking too.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Two years low to dollar. Facts.

Pound is shrinking so if you happen to earn in pounds....your money is losing value fast.

Why should we want our country to be poor?
And answer to Trump?

Why should we want to throw away Good Friday agreement?

Over and done with what actually?

Our economy?

Generations will be paying for this No Deal.

I don't mean BoJo JRM or Farage but the common people...

Sadly Labour who should stand for the common people pretty much preferred their own infighting as priority.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 411790
> Two years low to dollar. Facts.
> 
> Pound is shrinking so if you happen to earn in pounds....your money is losing value fast.
> 
> Why should we want our country to be poor?
> And answer to Trump?
> 
> Why should we want to throw away Good Friday agreement?
> 
> Over and done with what actually?
> 
> Our economy?
> 
> Generations will be paying for this No Deal.
> 
> I don't mean BoJo JRM or Farage but the common people...
> 
> Sadly Labour who should stand for the common people pretty much preferred their own infighting as priority.


So the only answer is to earn your money in dollars apparently?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.cityam.com/eurozone-gro...ce=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=M

*Eurozone growth and inflation slow with ECB poised to act*


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> So the only answer is to earn your money in dollars apparently?


Yes. This exactly what high net clients do.

I assure you JRM , BoJo etc.., see their portfolios growing ..

They made fortunes on Brexit already.

Ask @Satori who is now opening another champagne.
Trump can join him.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-do-low-income-voters-from-deprived-areas-want-from-brexit/

*What do low income voters from deprived areas want from Brexit?*

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/up...s-for-low-income-voters-in-deprived-areas.pdf

*Briefing: post-Brexit priorities for low-income voters in deprived areas*

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/up...ll-report-JRF-and-UK-in-a-Changing-Europe.pdf

*WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT FROM BREXIT?*


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes. This exactly what high net clients do.
> 
> I assure you JRM , BoJo etc.., see their portfolios growing ..
> 
> They made fortunes on Brexit already.
> 
> Ask @Satori who is now opening another champagne.
> Trump can join him.


That's ok then, I thought you were pointing out that the euro is strong.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> That's ok then, I thought you were pointing out that the euro is strong.


Some reading for you ......

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/11784-pound-to-euro-and-dollar-how-low

*Yet More Losses for Pound Sterling Forecast*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Some reading for you ......
> 
> https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/11784-pound-to-euro-and-dollar-how-low
> 
> *Yet More Losses for Pound Sterling Forecast*


Not entirely sure what you mean. A post was made pointing out the losses the pound had made against both euro and dollar, I was trying to point out that the euro has been falling against the dollar as well.

So once we aren't allowed to go on holiday in the eurozone as KK seems to think will happen, my pound will be as good as anyone else's when I buy a TV on the black market that has been built up by the rioting and pillaging that will happen once we have left the EU.

I'm pretty sure that's what he said is going to happen?

So who needs to worry about exchange rates?

The above is me being facetious


----------



## KittenKong

Don't they look so alike? They could be brother and sister....









https://www.france24.com/en/2018031...e-honour-populist-pep-talk-lille-trump?ref=fb


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Not entirely sure what you mean. A post was made pointing out the losses the pound had made against both euro and dollar, I was trying to point out that the euro has been falling against the dollar as well.
> 
> So once we aren't allowed to go on holiday in the eurozone as KK seems to think will happen, my pound will be as good as anyone else's when I buy a TV on the black market that has been built up by the rioting and pillaging that will happen once we have left the EU.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's what he said is going to happen?
> 
> So who needs to worry about exchange rates?
> 
> The above is me being facetious


Sorry I didn't mean to offend you. It was just that I'd read the article and thought you might be interested.

I've just checked the GBP to HUF rate and it's virtually the same as it was last week!


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Sorry I didn't mean to offend you. It was just that I'd read the article and thought you might be interested.
> 
> I've just checked the GBP to HUF rate and it's virtually the same as it was last week!


I'm not offended. Perhaps I need to use the winky face more? 

I was hoping your currency would be the Hungarian Florin (no idea why :Angelic)  It's not...


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Don't they look so alike? They could be brother and sister....
> View attachment 411793
> 
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/2018031...e-honour-populist-pep-talk-lille-trump?ref=fb


So what's an "everyday remainer"?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Don't they look so alike? They could be brother and sister....
> View attachment 411793
> 
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/2018031...e-honour-populist-pep-talk-lille-trump?ref=fb


That article was from 11 March 2018.nearly a year and a half ago.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> I'm not offended. Perhaps I need to use the winky face more?
> 
> I was hoping your currency would be the Hungarian Florin (no idea why :Angelic)  It's not...


Hungary's not part of the Eurozone and the currency is called the Forint and although I don't know about the dollar it's been fairly stable around the Pound.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Hungary's not part of the Eurozone and the currency is called the Forint and although I don't know about the dollar it's been fairly stable around the Pound.


Doesnt't give much confidence in forint but good on you!

Shrinking pound for us here is a disaster!!!

Parity with euro on the charts...

Basically pound is losing to most currencies but those who wisely invested against the pound and had the money to do it are sure winners!


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> Doesnt't give much confidence in forint but good on you!
> 
> Shrinking pound for us here is a disaster!!!
> 
> Parity with euro on the charts...
> 
> Basically pound is losing to most currencies but those who wisely invested against the pound and had the money to do it are sure winners!


Anyone who has any spare cash has the money to invest against any currency. If you have any sort of investment it can be used in currency... not hidden away for the elites


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.thearticle.com/its-time-to-quash-the-myth-that-brexiteers-are-obsessed-with-empire

*It's time to quash the myth that Brexiteers are obsessed with "empire"*


----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> Anyone who has any spare cash has the money to invest against any currency. If you have any sort of investment it can be used in currency... not hidden away for the elites


Of course, but to have a decent IFA and access to the goodies you need big money.

Or you must be a professional customer.

If you are usually you have money too...

Because this is regulatory requirement.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> "You're just damaging Scotland's prospects", by Booing Johnson can hardly be considered anything else can it?
> 
> It's like a child being told they can stay up late and enjoy ice cream if they behave themselves.


It might be childish, it may be factless comment made by some random, but to be considered a threat is quite honestly laughable.


----------



## Snoringbear

More Brexit winning. Apparently a new found export deal for lamb to Japan will replace our current deal with the EU. Unfortunately it's only equivalent to 2.67% of our EU exports. It's a bit like burning a £20 note and being happy you found 5p. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49164496


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So what's an "everyday remainer"?


I was commenting on Bannon and Le Pen looking as if they are siblings, not in a political sense, which is entirely coincidental.


----------



## KittenKong

And we were told the UK would save £350million a week on leaving the EU? Better still, it would be spent on the NHS instead.

£4bn? The UK hasn't even left yet! Incompetence or what?!

Public services starved, wages largely frozen for nearly ten years and for what? Make people poorer and deprived of their FoM?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 411823
> And we were told the UK would save £350million a week on leaving the EU? Better still, it would be spent on the NHS instead.
> 
> £4bn? The UK hasn't even left yet! Incompetence or what?!
> 
> Public services starved, wages largely frozen for nearly ten years and for what? Make people poorer and deprived of their FoM?


After Brexit there will be no NHS as we know it .., so no 350 mln needed anyhow.
But Brexit hasn't happened yet so as one of our wise heads here said it cannot be effect of Brexit.

Same with global warming, temperatures might grow year by year but some believe there is no global warming.

Roman Empire collapsed and Dark Ages came in.... Flows and ebbs of history... the tides are turning...


----------



## Elles

How is the Eu responsible for our NHS? Unfortunately when people make those kind of statements they start to lose credibility. This government is already investing over the 350mln that was mentioned. Britain isn’t an Empire, the Eu is closer to that category than we are. You should read magyarmum’s link.

Most people agree that our climate is changing. They just don’t always agree on the whys and wherefores and the solutions.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> How is the Eu responsible for our NHS? Unfortunately when people make those kind of statements they start to lose credibility. This government is already investing over the 350mln that was mentioned. Britain isn't an Empire, the Eu is closer to that category than we are. You should read magyarmum's link.
> 
> Most people agree that our climate is changing. They just don't always agree on the whys and wherefores and the solutions.


Where in my post I made EU responsible for NHS?????
I think Brexit will affect NHS badly but why it is fault of EU?
I think BoJo and his cronies with private medical care are hell bent on low taxes for the rich and less money for NHs which will be sold out bit by bit.
My comment on Roman Empire was general and EU has many issues too.
Brexit will damage both.
Time for Specsavers my dear @Elles :Watching or is it my English and lost in translation???


----------



## Elles

Bojo and his cronies promised more money for the NHS. You said after brexit there will be no nhs. What is stopping Boris selling it and closing it now? The Eu can’t prevent it, so why has brexit got to do anything with it? Who set up the NHS? Anyone would think that Britain has nothing to do with human rights, animal welfare, a welfare state and the NHS, if it’s all going to end as soon as we leave the Eu. Don’t people think that Britain is capable?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Bojo and his cronies promised more money for the NHS. You said after brexit there will be no nhs. What is stopping Boris selling it and closing it now? The Eu can't prevent it, so why has brexit got to do anything with it? Who set up the NHS? Anyone would think that Britain has nothing to do with human rights, animal welfare, a welfare state and the NHS, if it's all going to end as soon as we leave the Eu. Don't people think that Britain is capable?


I think now Britain will ape USA and welfare etc... will go this way.
Lower taxes but little social security.
Society will be more split and the poor will be pitched against minorities.
I do hope I am wrong.
Animal rights? Let's say fox hunting.
Are you are in favour?

Green fear Brexit, why?
Don't they think Britain is capable?

I support Green.

I don't believe ERG now in power cares much about the rights of common people.

I am afraid that after their rule pendulum of power might swing to the other extreme and I am not fond of that idea either.

Both extremes are dangerous for different reasons and the bottom fell of our centre.


----------



## Elles

I think you’re wrong and we aren’t America.

Animal rights and animal welfare are slightly different. Animals have no real rights, but that’s a difficult and entirely separate issue. The people of Britain brought about the hunting ban, for better or worse and no successive government have had any success reversing it. We do still live in a democracy. 

Having no money doesn’t make you brainless, people can still make choices. I’m no different now than I was when I was poor and relying on state aid. 

I believe in equal opportunity and although I have been voting green and despise Boris, I will probably vote for him. If it was Gove I wouldn’t even hesitate. Enough people have made enough noise about green issues now, I’d like to see us out of the Eu and sorting it out, not stagnating in uncertainty for the next 3 years. I think there’s little to no chance of a second referendum, or a win for remain even if there were one and I think the delay what is damaging, so I’d like to see it done with now.


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> It might be childish, it may be factless comment made by some random, but to be considered a threat is quite honestly laughable.


Bet you wouldn't be saying that had it been Corbyn who was booed and one of his die hards wrote something similar.

For the record, I would have booed Corbyn myself for his pro Brexit stance.



Snoringbear said:


> More Brexit winning. Apparently a new found export deal for lamb to Japan will replace our current deal with the EU. Unfortunately it's only equivalent to 2.67% of our EU exports. It's a bit like burning a £20 note and being happy you found 5p.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49164496


Typical Brexit benefit: We still have 5p though, or should that be a shilling?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> I was commenting on Bannon and Le Pen looking as if they are siblings, not in a political sense, which is entirely coincidental.


And I was being facetious about their spelling mistake, but that appears to have gone over your head at about 30,000 feet.


----------



## AlexPed2393

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course, but to have a decent IFA and access to the goodies you need big money.
> 
> Or you must be a professional customer.
> 
> If you are usually you have money too...
> 
> Because this is regulatory requirement.


Or you could use an investment bank like Investec to deal with your investment, then during the initial consultation where you talk about where you want to invest your money you can say yes or not to certain areas like I did. It is not a 'big' investment


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> And I was being facetious about their spelling mistake, but that appears to have gone over your head at about 30,000 feet.


Would you kindly point out any typos which I will amend appropriately, thank you.

And, what's 30,000 feet? This is an international forum, or have you forgotten that?

That should be 9144 metres.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Would you kindly point out any typos which I will amend appropriately, thank you.
> 
> And, what's 30,000 feet? This is an international forum, or have you forgotten that?
> 
> That should be 9144 *metres*.


what are they, inches feet and yards if you don't mind.


----------



## mrs phas

@KittenKong 
Is it possible for you to have a conversation/debate without being so rude?
I know I have poked the hornets nest a couple of times myself, but I'm also happy to admit there's been some interesting posts from you, not that I agree with them, but interesting all the same
However, the risible, rude and downright hostile way you post, invites others to join in, in the same vein, myself included. 
This surely cannot be good for your health, both mentally and physically, and, whilst you might not believe it, I know I'm not the only one who worries
Do you honestly think you ranting, here, will change anything in the long run? Brexit will, unfortunately, happen, whether its liked or not, name calling and hostility etc will not change that
But
Changing your style of posting just might stop you having high blood pressure, tension headaches, or an aneurysm
Choose your battles, no point in carrying on fighting, when the war is actually lost anyway
My best wishes for your good health


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Would you kindly point out any typos which I will amend appropriately, thank you.
> 
> And, what's 30,000 feet? This is an international forum, or have you forgotten that?
> 
> That should be 9144 metres.


Considering the majority of our "international" members are from the US which doesn't use the metric system IMO it's quite in order to use the imperial system which many of us understand as well as we do the metric one.

No doubt, if you had your way, in order to to eradicate anything remotely British, you'd make the world change from nautical miles to nautical kilometres

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-are-nautical-miles-1435097

*How Are Nautical Miles Measured?*


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> what are they, inches feet and yards if you don't mind.


 Same here!

KK , Our road speeds are still in miles per hour and we still drive on the left .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Same here!
> 
> KK , Our road speeds are still in miles per hour and we still drive on the left .


They also drive on the left in Cyprus, the Irish Republic, Australia and New Zealand. No doubt a few other countries too.

They've fully adopted the metric system.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/europeans-have-started-to-change-their-minds-on-brexit/

*Europeans have started to change their minds on Brexit*

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...n-within-weeks-of-brexit-20190801-p52cpm.html

*Australia-UK trade deal 'could happen within weeks of Brexit'*


----------



## cheekyscrip

AlexPed2393 said:


> Or you could use an investment bank like Investec to deal with your investment, then during the initial consultation where you talk about where you want to invest your money you can say yes or not to certain areas like I did. It is not a 'big' investment


But of course, yet with less than 50 k it is not worth the fees.., obviously for some common people 50 k is a bit of money and not everyone has that bit to throw around...

I still think that lots of people believe in money trees...
And post hard Brexit the money trees will pay out to Welsh farmers, NHS and so on regardless of shrinking pound and shrinking economy?


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Bet you wouldn't be saying that had it been Corbyn who was booed and one of his die hards wrote something similar.
> 
> For the record, I would have booed Corbyn myself for his pro Brexit stance.


I stand by my comments regardless of if you switch the people around.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> They also drive on the left in Cyprus, the Irish Republic, Australia and New Zealand. No doubt a few other countries too.
> 
> They've fully adopted the metric system.


Except for a couple of countries, don't planes fly at altitude in feet ? .


----------



## KittenKong

Brilliant!!!!























Interesting to note they were more votes for solidly pro Brexit parties (Tory, Farage,UKIP and to some extent Labour), but that's how first past the post works folks. How Farage won in many areas where the combined vote for remain parties was considerably higher during the Euro elections.

Guess Brexit supporters will now be calling for the abolition of FPTP and call for proportional representation!:Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Brilliant!!!!
> View attachment 411977
> View attachment 411978
> View attachment 411979
> 
> 
> Interesting to note they were more votes for solidly pro Brexit parties (Tory, Farage,UKIP and to some extent Labour), but that's how first past the post works folks. How Farage won in many areas where the combined vote for remain parties was considerably higher during the Euro elections.
> 
> Guess Brexit supporters will now be calling for the abolition of FPTP and call for proportional representation!:Hilarious


Pfft.........and you think people are poor now........you wait til you get a Liberal Government. God help us


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> @KittenKong
> Is it possible for you to have a conversation/debate without being so rude?
> I know I have poked the hornets nest a couple of times myself, but I'm also happy to admit there's been some interesting posts from you, not that I agree with them, but interesting all the same
> However, the risible, rude and downright hostile way you post, invites others to join in, in the same vein, myself included.
> This surely cannot be good for your health, both mentally and physically, and, whilst you might not believe it, I know I'm not the only one who worries
> Do you honestly think you ranting, here, will change anything in the long run? Brexit will, unfortunately, happen, whether its liked or not, name calling and hostility etc will not change that
> But
> Changing your style of posting just might stop you having high blood pressure, tension headaches, or an aneurysm
> Choose your battles, no point in carrying on fighting, when the war is actually lost anyway
> My best wishes for your good health


In light of your post maybe you'd be interested in reading this article ........................

https://www.theweek.co.uk/102579/th...ily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ne

*The impact Brexit is having on Britain's sex life*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> In light of your post maybe you'd be interested in reading this article ........................
> 
> https://www.theweek.co.uk/102579/th...ily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ne
> 
> *The impact Brexit is having on Britain's sex life*


Well, at least the ''dwindling birth rate'' will have a beneficial effect on climate change. (Despite rumours to the contrary, I am not a ''climate change denier'' - I just don't see how painting a boat pink or super-glueing myself to a train, or leaving a load of rubbish and placards to be cleaned up by someone else [I do not have such a sense of entitlement] helps the cause.)


----------



## AlexPed2393

Magyarmum said:


> In light of your post maybe you'd be interested in reading this article ........................
> 
> https://www.theweek.co.uk/102579/th...ily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ne
> 
> *The impact Brexit is having on Britain's sex life*


Or it could be that most people aged 25-35 are skint and were skint before the referendum and can't afford a child


----------



## Guest

Freedom of movement is excellent and priceless. We have all just been to Hannover in Germany for 2 days and went by train from Amsterdam Centraal Station. No border checks or passport checks.

When mum and dad came from England to Amsterdam Centraal Station via Eurostar they said they had their passports checked by both UK boarder people and French police but said it was quick going through this process. We don't have this over here when travelling by train or car to other European countries but we do have to carry our national id cards with us at all times, if you don't you can risk arrest or fine if stopped by the Politie in the Netherlands. You do have to carry your passport to fly to other European countries.


----------



## Guest

I am sorry the UK wants to leave the European Union. It will make it harder for my mum and dad to come and see me in Amsterdam. Mum and dad voted remain in 2016. I didn't vote because I am no longer a UK citizen but if I was given the option I would have voted remain because of everything the UK is going to lose.

The UK will realise what they are losing when they have left the European Union and perhaps then they might want to rejoin.


----------



## AlexPed2393

saartje said:


> I am sorry the UK wants to leave the European Union. It will make it harder for my mum and dad to come and see me in Amsterdam. Mum and dad voted remain in 2016. I didn't vote because I am no longer a UK citizen but if I was given the option I would have voted remain because of everything the UK is going to lose.
> 
> The UK will realise what they are losing when they have left the European Union and perhaps then they might want to rejoin.


I don't think there will be a rejoin for a good period of time if the EU stays a viable option. I don't see movement of people to change too much easier between the UK and the EU, as you said there are already passport checks, they won't make it too much more difficult to move through borders.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Freedom of movement is excellent and priceless. We have all just been to Hannover in Germany for 2 days and went by train from Amsterdam Centraal Station. No border checks or passport checks.
> 
> When mum and dad came from England to Amsterdam Centraal Station via Eurostar they said they had their passports checked by both UK boarder people and French police but said it was quick going through this process. We don't have this over here when travelling by train or car to other European countries but we do have to carry our national id cards with us at all times, if you don't you can risk arrest or fine if stopped by the Politie in the Netherlands. You do have to carry your passport to fly to other European countries.


In the past 18 months I've travelled to Poland and the Czech Republic without having either my British Passport or my Hungarian Residence Card (ID) checked. The dogs and I also travel to Slovakia frequently by car without any problems.

Even before the referendum when travelling by car and using the ferry our passports (and those of the dogs and cat) have been checked on both sides of the channel.


----------



## Elles

I don’t think it will be either. There are already checks and think of when there have been terror alerts and they’ve checked everything and everyone. The delays are more likely to affect goods, if officialdom decide every lorry has to have extra paperwork and be checked. People already get their passports checked, their bags x-rayed and pass through a scanner at airports.  Britain never joined Schengen.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> Freedom of movement is excellent and priceless. We have all just been to Hannover in Germany for 2 days and went by train from Amsterdam Centraal Station. No border checks or passport checks.
> 
> When mum and dad came from England to Amsterdam Centraal Station via Eurostar they said they had their passports checked by both UK boarder people and French police but said it was quick going through this process. We don't have this over here when travelling by train or car to other European countries but we do have to carry our national id cards with us at all times, if you don't you can risk arrest or fine if stopped by the Politie in the Netherlands. You do have to carry your passport to fly to other European countries.


Yes indeed. That's because the UK government refused to adopt Schengen.

It wouldn't stop me from visiting and staying with friends for an indefinite period and taking a job in, say, a bar without the need to apply for a work permit.

In a post Brexit UK, citizens will be subject to a 90 day maximum visa, whether charged or not, and lose their automatic right to live and work in other countries.

At present, citizens from other EU countries are able to visit the UK on producing their ID card alone. It's worth remembering they'll too need passports and expect similar treatment as if they are visiting from the US etc.

And, how many UK holiday makers remember the days of Customs checks? Something they'll have to get used to once again.

As I mentioned way back, people will not miss what they've never had. Taking away something they took for granted is another matter.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed. That's because the UK government refused to adopt Schengen.
> 
> It wouldn't stop me from visiting and staying with friends for an indefinite period and taking a job in, say, a bar without the need to apply for a work permit.
> 
> In a post Brexit UK, citizens will be subject to a 90 day maximum visa, whether charged or not, and lose their automatic right to live and work in other countries.
> 
> At present, citizens from other EU countries are able to visit the UK on producing their ID card alone. It's worth remembering they'll too need passports and expect similar treatment as if they are visiting from the US etc.
> 
> And, how many UK holiday makers remember the days of Customs checks? Something they'll have to get used to once again.
> 
> As I mentioned way back, people will not miss what they've never had. Taking away something they took for granted is another matter.


That is incorrect.
Any European citizens including UK and Northern Ireland are allowed to stay in any European Country for up to 90 days not indefinite, now, then you must register with the local authorities if you are staying longer, this rule has applied since the creation of the European Union.

The European Union will require UK citizens to have a permit/visa for the Schegen Zone. It does not apply to European Citizens going to UK to get a permit or visa as the UK government have not said they are putting this restriction in place.

UK citizens get customs checks already at London Eurostar and Brussels Eurostar. Mum and dad went through it and it was painless. The difference will be when the UK leaves the European Union they will a permit/visa to enter the Schegen Zone in the passport and a stamp from French Police in the UK. When mum and dad went through customs checks to come to Amsterdam via Eurostar they first had their baggage scanned and their passports check by UK boarder people and then the French Police checked their passports after this. It was all done in London and when returning through Brussels it will be Belgium Police and then UK Customs people before they board the train.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> In a post Brexit UK, citizens will be subject to a 90 day maximum visa, whether charged or not, and lose their *automatic right to live and work in other countries*.


Where did you get that from??


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> I am sorry the UK wants to leave the European Union. It will make it harder for my mum and dad to come and see me in Amsterdam.





saartje said:


> UK citizens get customs checks already at London Eurostar and Brussels Eurostar. Mum and dad went through it and it was painless. The difference will be when the UK leaves the European Union they will a permit/visa to enter the Schegen Zone in the passport and a stamp from French Police in the UK. When mum and dad went through customs checks to come to Amsterdam via Eurostar they first had their baggage scanned and their passports check by UK boarder people and then the French Police checked their passports after this. It was all done in London and when returning through Brussels it will be Belgium Police and then UK Customs people before they board the train.


In what way do you think it will be harder for your parents to visit once the UK has left the EU?


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> In what way do you think it will be harder for your parents to visit once the UK has left the EU?


They will have another process to go through before coming here, I mean having to apply for and pay for a Schegen permit/visa. Perhaps it won't be harder for them and perhaps I am wrong. I am so used to life over here now so perhaps I view things slightly differently now.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> They will have another process to go through before coming here, I mean having to apply for and pay for a Schegen permit/visa. Perhaps it won't be harder for them and perhaps I am wrong. I am so used to life over here now so perhaps I view things slightly differently now.


It has already been agreed that UK citizens won't have to apply for a visa when visiting an EU country for a short stay.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...er-brexit-council-agrees-negotiating-mandate/

*Visa free travel after Brexit: Council agrees negotiating mandate*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> It has already been agreed that UK citizens won't have to apply for a visa when visiting an EU country for a short stay.
> 
> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...er-brexit-council-agrees-negotiating-mandate/
> 
> *Visa free travel after Brexit: Council agrees negotiating mandate*


Oh that is good news. I stand corrected and apologise for the post in question. Honestly we do not follow the constant Brexit news from the UK, thay is just the way me and my partner are.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Honestly we do not follow the constant Brexit news from the UK,


I dont blame you ! To be honest, perhaps a lot of British don't follow it either. Im not the only one who is sick to death of the mess our politicians have made of it so far and its not over yet.


----------



## kimthecat

It took me a while to get this one. They really dont mean clock , do they ? 
Oonagh
@Okeating
·
3h
Due to a typo, the media has been reporting that "a Brexit clock" has been installed in the Prime Minister's office.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> It has already been agreed that UK citizens won't have to apply for a visa when visiting an EU country for a short stay.
> 
> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...er-brexit-council-agrees-negotiating-mandate/
> 
> *Visa free travel after Brexit: Council agrees negotiating mandate*


I have just shown mum and dad this and they are delighted that there will be no requirement for them to get a permit/visa when the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I have just shown mum and dad this and they are delighted that there will be no requirement for them to get a permit/visa when the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> It has already been agreed that UK citizens won't have to apply for a visa when visiting an EU country for a short stay.
> 
> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...er-brexit-council-agrees-negotiating-mandate/
> 
> *Visa free travel after Brexit: Council agrees negotiating mandate*


Subject to a maximum of 90 days without the automatic right to find employment though. If you expect me to rejoice this backwards step you are very much mistaken.

Nothing less than what we have now as far as I'm concerned. And EU citizens post Brexit will still need Passports to enter the UK they don't need now, especially with a no deal Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

US-EU signed contract on export of American beef to EU.

In case EU were short of beef post Brexit?


----------



## KittenKong

Pathetic. He, nor me experienced rationing. A bit different in a time of a national crisis but a self inflicted one is something else altogether.

He didn't put this on the side of his bus.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Subject to a maximum of 90 days without the automatic right to find employment though. If you expect me to rejoice this backwards step you are very much mistaken.
> 
> Nothing less than what we have now as far as I'm concerned. And EU citizens post Brexit will still need Passports to enter the UK they don't need now, especially with a no deal Brexit.


KK - I'll put the flags out the day you rejoice about ANYTHING because it'll be such a noteworthy event!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> KK - I'll put the flags out the day you rejoice about ANYTHING because it'll be such a noteworthy event!


Yes, the day when people wake up and realise the disaster that awaits them. It worked with the Poll Tax.

I rejoiced when Theresa May eventually quit too, but not as much as I thought as my dislike of Corbyn over his continued pro Brexit stance (only a Brexit with a deal which is still Brexit), would mean I'd celebrate the final end of the delusional idiots that currently lead the Labour party. But it looks as if we'll have to await the day after the next GE to see any likelihood of that.


----------



## KittenKong

And people were led to believe Brexit would save them £350m a week to be spent on the NHS?









https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/01/bori...97876/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.facebook


----------



## KittenKong

Flag waving nationalist vomit.:Vomit


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> And EU citizens post Brexit will still need Passports to enter the UK they don't need now,


Now this isn't strictly true is it? Many countries still won't let you in without a passport.
You can check here  https://www.worldtravelguide.net/country-guides/



KittenKong said:


> And people were led to believe Brexit would save them £350m a week to be spent on the NHS?
> 
> View attachment 412073


It would be rather remiss not to prepare. You never know when the EU will get peed off and pull the rug
Last year we gave them approx 9 billion net.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Now this isn't strictly true is it? Many countries still won't let you in without a passport.
> 
> It would be rather remiss not to prepare. You never know when the EU will get peed off and pull the rug
> Last year we gave them approx 9 million net.


When I travelled to Mayotte via La Reunion both of whom are French and as such are in the EU, although there was a separate line for EU citizens, our Passports were checked on arrival and departure.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> When I travelled to Mayotte via La Reunion both of whom are French and as such are in the EU, although there was a separate line for EU citizens, our Passports were checked on arrival and departure.


I believe an ID card is acceptable, but what's that if not still a registration from your own government?
What's the difference to a passport?  (serious question)


----------



## Guest

kittenkong. Alot of what you argue is fake, not true and your arguments then become misleading and you don't like it when you are corrected.

The European Union rules at the moment about staying in a country are, you are allowed to stay for 90 days in any 180 days if you intend to stay longer you must present yourself to the local authorities to get a residence permit. These have been the rules since the European Union began and have not changed. You cannot stay indefinitely llike you said from day one unless you follow the above rules and present yourself over here to the Foreign Police and local district hall as you have to be registered there to and the tax office and each country follows the same basic process. In the Netherlands they have simplified it so as a European Citizen you just have to present yourself to the district hall and register and the tax office you don't have to present yourself any longer to the foreign police. Your right to stay indefinitely is not automatic as you have to prove that you can financially provide for yourself eg through savings, social security benefits from the country you are from (these benefits become taxable over here. You cannot automatically claim feom the government benefits over here for 12 months), which will be taxable here and/or a job. You then have 5 years before you can apply to become a national of the said country you wish to stay in or you carry on living there bit following the rules of the country you wish to live in (I had to get residency passes initially for set periods of time but I don't know if that has been simplified over here as that was a long time ago and to get a residency pass I had to show my work contract and bank statements to the foreign police and prove I had been resident in the Netherlands the whole time). There is red tape and hurdles to jump through but once you know what you are doing the process is simpler. This is not the entire process just a basic view of it and it can vary slightly from country to country but the basic principle remains the same.

I became a dutch citizen because I married my partner and I met all the rules including the 5 year rule (I have been in the Netherlands longer than this at the time) prior to getting married (and I constantly met the rules I had to follow and paid my taxes).

I am just adding this I am not rubbing anything in your face I am correcting what you said because what you said is not true. The things you say that are not true can be very misleading to others. You seem to rely on newspapers for your source of information alot but you should really get your facts from the European Councils website as newspapers can be wrong to, as they are selling stories that the reporter writes.

The European Union (Magyarmum pointed out yesterday) are not introdusing a schegen permit/visa for UK citizens to visit another European Country as the UK will not be creating any visas for European citizens to visit the UK (My mum and dad are delighted with this news as they can carry on visiting as before). I admitted I was wrong but then again we (my partner and I) do not follow the constant brexit news in the UK as there is more for us to do in life. But I will correct people if they are wrong.

I do not mean to cause you or anyone any offence at all it is not in my nature to be agressive with anyone or offensive to anyone. My partner and I are very likeable people.

Now we must get ready for Amsterdam Pride today which is a big event over here. My partners parents arrived last night so the house is full as we have my parents here to.

So I will speak on here again soon.

Have a good day whatever you are doing everyone.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Now this isn't strictly true is it? Many countries still won't let you in without a passport.
> You can check here  https://www.worldtravelguide.net/country-guides/
> 
> I was referring to citizens from other EU countries who can currently travel to the UK on their existing ID cards requiring passports in the future.
> 
> It would be rather remiss not to prepare. You never know when the EU will get peed off and pull the rug
> Last year we gave them approx 9 billion net.


Perhaps, but their investment into the UK is significant. Nevertheless, I agree with supporting other countries within the block too.

What Johnson is doing is wasting taxpayers money on an avoidable crisis. The UK is not at war, nor in a national crisis except one on its own making. Pity no £350m for the NHS though!

I use the same argument with Corbyn supporting Lexiters incidentally.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Well... I survived rationing and endless queues for food. For everything.
I still don’t use sugar in tea, it was considered such a waste! ( Sugar had much better uses ). 

So from 350 mln on the buses we came to “we will survive “. 

Please remember Britain was not attacked, but British people are bringing it on themselves basically deciding to make the country poorer, especially the lower earning ones so sponsors of ERG can have even more.

Labour chose leader who would not really make stand against it.

One only wonders....


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> KK - I'll put the flags out the day you rejoice about ANYTHING because it'll be such a noteworthy event!


 Be careful which flag you choose though!


----------



## KittenKong

They should stick to playing battleships. She is right.
An insult to those who were killed in wars the EEC was founded to prevent happening again.


----------



## KittenKong

Worth remembering this.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I believe an ID card is acceptable, but what's that if not still a registration from your own government?
> What's the difference to a passport?  (serious question)


Does this answer your question? I should also add that certainly in Hungary you use your ID card often when you have to provide identification - in South Africa for example which has no ID card you used your driving licence!

https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/living-working/passport-and-identity-card

*Difference between passports and identity cards*
*Passport*
A national passport is an identity document that allows you to travel anywhere in the world. Dutch passports contain an electronic chip with an image of the holder's fingerprints, to prevent forgery and abuse. Before you travel, you should check if you need a visa for your destination.

*Identity card*
ID cards are only valid for travel to the EU member states, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, Switzerland and Turkey.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Be careful which flag you choose though!


Actually I was thinking of this one.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Actually I was thinking of this one.


 Good as anything I suppose.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Does this answer your question? I should also add that certainly in Hungary you use your ID card often when you have to provide identification - in South Africa for example which has no ID card you used your driving licence!
> 
> https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/living-working/passport-and-identity-card
> 
> *Difference between passports and identity cards*
> *Passport*
> A national passport is an identity document that allows you to travel anywhere in the world. Dutch passports contain an electronic chip with an image of the holder's fingerprints, to prevent forgery and abuse. Before you travel, you should check if you need a visa for your destination.
> 
> *Identity card*
> ID cards are only valid for travel to the EU member states, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Norway, San Marino, Switzerland and Turkey.


Thank you 
As I thought, a passport by another name but for a smaller world


----------



## Snoringbear

Looks like Nissan are cutting staff. Anyone have a guess where there's cuts will be made? Obvious place would be where people voted out of a free trade area which supports JIT car production https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...derland-factory-brexit-a9019891.html#comments


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 412178


Not quite exactly what he said. But isn't it a little hypocritical since he's an MEP?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 412178


Once again you're misleading people!

The above has not only been quoted totally out of context but it's from an article which is over ONE YEAR OLD!


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Not quite exactly what he said. But isn't it a little hypocritical since he's an MEP?


It certainly isn't the inference he made and a very important word has been left our of the quote. I believe he was talking more about those who try to manipulate and destabilize the country for their own gain. 
I don't think he's an MEP any more and aren't they best placed to know what's going on?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 412178


Life imprisonment for treason I believe.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Life imprisonment for treason I believe.


Think at one time Treason was punishable by the death penalty.
Something the current Home Secretary supports.....


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Guest

rona said:


> What's the difference to a passport?  (serious question)


This link is about Dutch identification documents:
https://www.government.nl/topics/id...tity-cards-and-dutch-nationality-certificates

Dutch National Identity Cards look similar to this and are fitted with a chip (obviously with your details and photo in it):









You can travel to the following places with a National Identity Card:









They are like passports but you can only travel to above countries with one. You need your passport book to travel to other countries not listed above or that are listed as exceptions above.

They are handy because they are the size of a bank card and can fit in your wallet.

There is a compulsory requirement for people to carry identification with them, failure to do so can mean you getting fined and/or taken to a police station and you may face prosecution if they are unable to identify you:
https://www.government.nl/topics/identification-documents/compulsory-identification
Police officers and other officials such as ticket inspectors and labour inspectors may ask to see proof of identity at anytime. As may care providers and employers.

Passport books (passports) have added security as your fingerprints stored in them but National Identity cards do not have your finger prints stored in them. We (my partner and I) have both got a dutch passport book (passport) and dutch national identity card but only really ever use our national identity cards because of the convenience of being able to carry it in a wallet.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Think at one time Treason was punishable by the death penalty.
> Something the current Home Secretary supports.....


The last person to be hanged for treason was William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) in 1946

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason_in_the_United_Kingdom

*High treason in the United Kingdom*


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Think at one time Treason was punishable by the death penalty.
> Something the current Home Secretary supports.....


Yes, it was.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> They are handy because they are the size of a bank card and can fit in your wallet.
> 
> There is a* compulsory requirement for people to carry identification with them*, failure to do so can mean you getting fined and/or taken to a police station and you may face prosecution if they are unable to identify you:
> https://www.government.nl/topics/identification-documents/compulsory-identification
> Police officers and other officials such as ticket inspectors and labour inspectors may ask to see proof of identity at anytime. As may care providers and employers.
> 
> Passport books (passports) have added security as your fingerprints stored in them but National Identity cards do not have your finger prints stored in them. We (my partner and I) have both got a dutch passport book (passport) and dutch national identity card but only really ever use our national identity cards because of the convenience of being able to carry it in a wallet.


Thank you
I find this an horrific thought as many times I go out I carry nothing with me at all, It seems to be just another tracking device that actually costs the person who must carry it !!


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Thank you
> I find this an horrific thought as many times I go out I carry nothing with me at all, It seems to be just another tracking device that actually costs the person who must carry it !!


I don't agree with you.

Suppose say,one day when you were out on your own you had an accident and were rushed to hospital unconscious or even worse you died shortly after arrival.. If you were carrying your ID with you, the hospital would know who you were, your address and from that information could contact your family.

Rather that than ending up as a John Doe because there was no way of identifying you!


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> I don't agree with you.
> 
> Suppose say,one day when you were out on your own you had an accident and were rushed to hospital unconscious or even worse you died shortly after arrival.. If you were carrying your ID with you, the hospital would know who you were, your address and from that information could contact your family.
> 
> Rather that than ending up as a John Doe because there was no way of identifying you!


Honestly. That's not something that concerns me......otherwise I would do it now


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Honestly. That's not something that concerns me......otherwise I would do it now


It never used to bother me either ..... until ....... one November afternoon, whilst walking the dogs in the woods, I tripped over a log hidden in the leaves and fractured my femur. As I didn't have a mobile phone at the time there was no way I could contact anyone. Somehow with help from M'Boi my Shar-Pei girl I managed to get up and hobble the 20 minutes walk back home.

Whilst I don't normally take my ID with me for local walks, I always take my mobile - just in case!


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/british-expats-could-lose-nhs-healthcare-under-nodeal-brexit-a8695366.

I can't stop laughing at expats who voted leave, but also feel sorry for those that voted remain.


----------



## mrs phas

IMO, if you want to move to another country, 
become an expat if you will, 
then you should have to give up everything the state provides anyway, 
there should be no having your cake AND eating it, allowed


----------



## Guest

I thought if you moved abroad like I did you cannot use the EHIC. You have to in the Netherlands sign up for medical insurance if you decide to live here and pay an amount each month out of your bank account from your wages. The medical insurance covers GP access and hospitals fees etc although you have to pay the excess fee. Not used mine yet but I still have to pay the medical insurance company each month.

I thought the EHIC is for holiday makers not people who decide to live in a country. If they are using it whilst living in a country then they are breaking the EHIC rules? 

I don't know why you are laughing at expats that voted leave. Bit immature is it not?


----------



## cheekyscrip

LN


saartje said:


> I thought if you moved abroad like I did you cannot use the EHIC. You have to in the Netherlands sign up for medical insurance if you decide to live here and pay an amount each month out of your bank account from your wages. The medical insurance covers GP access and hospitals fees etc although you have to pay the excess fee. Not used mine yet but I still have to pay the medical insurance company each month.
> 
> I thought the EHIC is for holiday makers not people who decide to live in a country. If they are using it whilst living in a country then they are breaking the EHIC rules?
> 
> I don't know why you are laughing at expats that voted leave. Bit immature is it not?


Why ? Bit foolish to vote Brexit if you accidentally live and work in EU ? Oxymoron of sorts. Paradox.

You are anti EU in EU???

A bit of a laugh.

Turkey voting for Christmas?

*it was not meant to offend the poultry on this forum :Chicken and no chicken crossed the road to come to harm during making this post


----------



## Elles

You can be anti the Eu and live in Europe. A lot of mainland Europeans are anti the Eu, but love Europe. 
French, German, Polish, Italian, Hungarian etc etc, living all across Europe and not necessarily in their country of birth and who don’t like the Bureaucrats in Brussels and would also vote to leave it. 

People who moved to a mainland country from England will have jumped through all kinds of hoops already to live in their country of choice, so they probably don’t think bringing down the juggernaut will make any difference to a freedom we barely have anyway.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You can be anti the Eu and live in Europe. A lot of mainland Europeans are anti the Eu, but love Europe.
> French, German, Polish, Italian, Hungarian etc etc, living all across Europe and not necessarily in their country of birth and who don't like the Bureaucrats in Brussels and would also vote to leave it.
> 
> People who moved to a mainland country from England will have jumped through all kinds of hoops already to live in their country of choice, so they probably don't think bringing down the juggernaut will make any difference to a freedom we barely have anyway.


Freedom you barely have???
Try living in Soviet Union or their satellite country!
Are you afraid of Black Volga coming to take you at night?

One would think EU is British Bogey Man coming to snatch your children?

Or is it MIFID2 that takes our freedom?

In which way EU limited your freedom?
Tariffs? Visas? Work permits?No passporting rights?

Because freedom is exactly what will be lost when we leave EU.
Not only big loses of jobs , not only blow to our economy.


----------



## Guest

Alot of Dutch people did not want The Netherlands to join the Euro (currency). They liked their currency the Gulden or Guilder and it was trading strong on the markets and had good currency exchange rates.










The transition to the Guilder started with two currencies being displayed on bank balances and wage slips. Alot of Dutch did not like the idea of the (€) Euro at all, that being one currency for many countries. The Euro coins and notes did not exist at this stage but the countries in the European Union had to be made prepared for it so their currencies became a national subunit. You may find that hard to believe but it is true. In 2002 the Guilder no longer existed and the Dutch people thought they had surrendered part of their history to the European Union as the Euro coins and notes became currency. I remember because the transition started the year I move to The Netherlands (1999).

It is not funny laughing at people who think that leaving is better. You would be surprised how many people in many countries within the European Union would vote to leave the European Union if they had a referendum like the UK had and the European Union know this and don't want further referendums like the UK had.

So that is why I said what I said above.


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/british-expats-could-lose-nhs-healthcare-under-nodeal-brexit-a8695366.
> 
> I can't stop laughing at expats who voted leave, but also feel sorry for those that voted remain.


Do try to keep up to date:Arghh

This article is from December 21 st 2018:Meh

Although I haven't checked I believe things have moved along since then..


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Bit foolish to vote Brexit if you accidentally live and work in EU ? Oxymoron of sorts. Paradox.
> 
> You are anti EU in EU???
> 
> A bit of a laugh.
> 
> Turkey voting for Christmas?


If you accidentally ended up in EU and didn't want to be, surely that's more reason to vote out, a bit like I did.I certainly didn't want to be in EU.
That must mean I accidentally ended up in.

I cannot see how that makes me a Turkey voting for Xmas because I'm voting for what I want, now if I voted to stay in. just because it's easy..........


----------



## KittenKong

Just before anyone says Johnson is honouring his NHS pledge...


----------



## KittenKong

If anything good comes from Brexit, this is it.
















https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.10481641c42e


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Just before anyone says Johnson is honouring his NHS pledge...


You do realise that we haven't left yet and are still sending billions to the EU?

This shows his commitment


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> IMO, if you want to move to another country,
> become an expat if you will,
> then you should have to give up everything the state provides anyway,
> there should be no having your cake AND eating it, allowed


Perhaps as well we should have "TRAITOR" branded on our foreheads before we leave?

Quite frankly I can't be bothered to reply to your post as you obviously have no idea what you're talking about!


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You do realise that we haven't left yet and are still sending billions to the EU?
> 
> This shows his commitment


:Hilarious. This is his post Brexit vision when in reality they are making preparations for the American take over of the NHS.

It was common for a government to invest in public services to make them more attractive to private bidders.


----------



## Guest

Nobody should be branded a "Traitor" for the way they voted in the referendum. That is ridiculous people should even think like this. Expats abroad that voted in the UK Referendum on there EU membership had that right to vote as well regardless of which way they voted.

Expats don't have to give up everything the state provides in the UK. I chose to because I got married and decided to become Dutch. No other reason. But I had to meet alot of rules to do so which I did.


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> Perhaps as well we should have "TRAITOR" branded on our foreheads before we leave?
> 
> Quite frankly I can't be bothered to reply to your post as you obviously have no idea what you're talking about!


I do believe I'm entitled to my own opinion, whether anyone agrees or not, is their entitlement
Rudeness however just shows lack of manners


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious. This is his post Brexit vision when in reality they are making preparations for the American take over of the NHS.
> 
> It was common for a government to invest in public services to make them more attractive to private bidders.


Give us proof of your allegations and by that I mean acts not opinions copied from Twitter


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> I do believe I'm entitled to my own opinion, whether anyone agrees or not, is their entitlement
> Rudeness however just shows lack of manners


As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion,providing, it's based on fact .... which your's isn't!

And it's certainly not any lack of manners, when someone points out that that opinion is discriminatory against, and penalises one section of British society..


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Freedom you barely have???
> Try living in Soviet Union or their satellite country!
> Are you afraid of Black Volga coming to take you at night?
> 
> One would think EU is British Bogey Man coming to snatch your children?
> 
> Or is it MIFID2 that takes our freedom?
> 
> In which way EU limited your freedom?
> Tariffs? Visas? Work permits?No passporting rights?
> 
> Because freedom is exactly what will be lost when we leave EU.
> Not only big loses of jobs , not only blow to our economy.


Sorry I worded that badly, I meant extra freedom that the Eu apparently gives us, we barely have any. If we want to move from the U.K. to Europe each country has its own rules anyway, including us and we never joined schengen. I'm talking relative to Eu Europe not Russia.

ETA maybe living in a satellite country of Soviet Union is colouring your opinion of the Eu. Britain has never been part of something like the Russia. Before the Eu we had freedom to travel across Europe, take gap year jobs and holiday if we could afford it.

People travel more now, because it's easier, faster and cheaper with modern modes of transport and not because of the Eu. It makes sense for countries in mainland Europe to have open borders between each other, I expect that would have happened Eu or no Eu. Maintaining borders is time consuming and expensive, the U.K. has a natural border and hasn't stopped checking us. Northern and Southern Ireland are the anomaly, because they don't have a sea dividing them, just humans.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Sorry I worded that badly, I meant extra freedom that the Eu apparently gives us, we barely have any. If we want to move from the U.K. to Europe *each country has its own rules anyway*, including us and we never joined schengen. I'm talking relative to Eu Europe not Russia.


The underlined bit is what I have been trying to say.

You can move to any country in Europe but like all countries around the world you have to abide to there rules to move to that country and there are hurdles to jump through as well. It is not easy like some make it out to be when moving to another country even in Europe. If I wanted to for instance move to Germany for example I would have to abide by there rules to do so.

A bit of advice : you have to do alot of research before moving and even when you are in a new country to make sure you are doing everything correctly especially if you want to live there.

Over here expats do not have to now get a residents permit if they are from another European country within the European Union but if you stay longer than 3 months (or 90 days) you have to register at your local town hall in the municipality you live in and register on the Municiple Personal Records Database (BRP) and apply for a BSN number which covers tax, social security and other government departments like being able to get a Dutch Passport, National ID Card etc (and you need a BSN number to get a job as well), and then a bank account but you must have somewhere to live and you cannot have somewhere to live by yourself unless you are registered with these but you can stay at a friends or partners and use their address if they allow you to. If you leave you must unregister from everywhere to avoid paying ongoing Dutch taxes and the public register at the town hall, bank etc. After 5 years you can apply for permenant residency not before and you have to prove you have lived here the whole time.

These rules have changed from when I moved over here because you had to register with the foreign police (which you no longer have to do), tax office for a sofi number which no longer exists as it is now a BSN number, and register on the public register at the local town hall, and this was before you could get accommodation for yourself to live in and then get a bank account and job.

About the BRP Register: https://www.government.nl/topics/personal-data/personal-records-database-brp

About Permanent Residency: https://ind.nl/en/permanent-residence/Pages/permanent-residence-after-5-years.aspx

The rules have changed since I first moved over here and I apologise if I have missed some of the new processes out but I did move over here 20 years ago and I don't really keep up to speed on the processes as I have no need to.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You do realise that we haven't left yet and are still sending billions to the EU?
> 
> This shows his commitment


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 412440


Did you not notice, he wasn't PM then


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> The underlined bit is what I have been trying to say.
> 
> You can move to any country in Europe but like all countries around the world you have to abide to there rules to move to that country and there are hurdles to jump through as well. It is not easy like some make it out to be when moving to another country even in Europe. If I wanted to for instance move to Germany for example I would have to abide by there rules to do so.
> 
> A bit of advice : you have to do alot of research before moving and even when you are in a new country to make sure you are doing everything correctly especially if you want to live there.
> 
> Over here expats do not have to now get a residents permit if they are from another European country within the European Union but if you stay longer than 4 months you have to register at your local town hall in the municipality you live in and register on the Municiple Personal Records Database (BRP) and apply for a BSN number which covers tax, social security and other government departments like being able to get a Dutch Passport, National ID Card etc (and you need a BSN number to get a job as well), and then a bank account but you must have somewhere to live and you cannot have somewhere to live by yourself unless you are registered with these but you can stay at a friends or partners and use their address if they allow you to. If you leave you must unregister from everywhere to avoid paying ongoing Dutch taxes and the public register at the town hall, bank etc. After 5 years you can apply for permenant residency not before and you have to prove you have lived here the whole time.
> 
> These rules have changed from when I moved over here because you had to register with the foreign police (which you no longer have to do), tax office for a sofi number which no longer exists as it is now a BSN number, and register on the public register at the local town hall, and this was before you could get accommodation for yourself to live in and then get a bank account and job.
> 
> About the BRP Register: https://www.government.nl/topics/personal-data/personal-records-database-brp
> 
> About Permanent Residency: https://ind.nl/en/permanent-residence/Pages/permanent-residence-after-5-years.aspx
> 
> The rules have changed since I first moved over here and I apologise if I have missed some of the new processes out but I did move over here 20 years ago and I don't really keep up to speed on the processes as I have no need to.


As you quite rightly say the rules are different depending on which EU country you move to.

In Hungary you can only live and work for three months before having to apply for a Residence Permit. Once you have one there's no need to report to any government organisation whatsoever. If you work you have to register to pay monthly tax and pension/NHS contributions, something which doesn't apply to people over 65. After being resident here for 5 years you're eligible to take out Hungarian nationality should you so wish.

As for medical care when I moved here despite not having lived in the UK for donkey's years, because I had worked, paid tax and contributed to the NHI for 25 years when I did lived there, and received a British State Pension I was issued with a certificate from HM Customs and Excise (I think it was 101 or 102) which confirmed I had paid all the necessary contributions and was entitled to receive free medical in Hungary. This is not the same as the one you need when you go on holiday to another EU country! I now have a TAJ Kartya with my Hungarian NHS number on it which everyone has to present when they register with a doctor or are admitted to hospital.


----------



## Guest

After 5 years here in the Netherlands you can take up Dutch Nationality if you wish but I waited for 10 years before doing so to make sure it was what I wanted to do and that is why I married my partner and then became a Dutch national.

There may well be a Dutch NHS system but when I came over here I had to pay for medical insurance and I do not believe this has changed for people moving over here. I had to get proof of my contributions to the National Insurance contributions in the UK. I am entitled to my UK pension (which is not alot) when I retire but that is sometime away yet. I have not needed to use the medical services yet.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*
*Cats to be main food providers post-Brexit*
15th February 2019









*DOMESTIC cats are set to provide over 50 per cent of British meals in the event of a no-deal Brexit.*

If ports are blocked and supermarket shelves empty it will fall to Britain's felines to show some Dunkirk spirit and bring their owners a tasty bit of sparrow.

Cat owner Donna Sheridan said: "I used to be furious about Mr Boots bringing in dead animals, but that was before anyone had heard of Jacob Rees-Mogg.

"Now he'll be doing his bit for the household food supply. We'll be sitting by the cat flap, stomachs rumbling, grateful for anything he brings in of an evening.

"Mice, dead birds, the odd rat if we're lucky, perhaps a wood pigeon for Christmas dinner. And, much as I hate to say this, if things get really desperate there's always Mr Boots himself.

"I always wondered why he used to stare at us in that superior way of his, as if he knew something we didn't. Now I know."

Mr Boots said: "You mess with highly integrated modern supply chains and just-in-time deliveries at your peril. Right, who fancies a decapitated mouse?"


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion,providing, it's based on fact .... which your's isn't!
> 
> And it's certainly not any lack of manners, when someone points out that that opinion is discriminatory against, and penalises one section of British society..


I'm not being discriminatory in any form, I just wholeheartedly believe, any ex pat, of any country, should not receive state benefits from their original country, once they achieve residency in their country of choice
As for knowing nothing, the information is easily accessible to educate oneself, just by accessing the government portal, for example
https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/rates-of-state-pension

Expats pay nothing back into the economy of origin. In fact many choose to leave because taxes, homes, food, utilities etc is cheaper in the chosen country, you can even apply for any tax you do pay, in the UK at least, to be refunded
Expats can also claim up to £300 winter fuel allowance, if they qualify, even if they have chosen a country that rarely dips below 20d in winter, 
Yet there are couples, here in UK, working two jobs that can't afford to feed themselves/children, let alone have heating
I could care less where anyone lives their lives, sometimes, jobs, relationships, health etc dictate where we can/cannot live
But
Once anyone moves to another country any and all state benefits should stop. Obviously if someone has paid contributions to their country of origin, they are due an allowance, but those contributions should be transferred to the country of residency, then any state pension be paid from their coffers, at the same amount they pay their native pensioners
So if one has paid 30yrs contributions for state pension in this country, those 30yrs get transferred to the country of ones choice. In the end it all evens out and balances each countries economies, instead of being a drain
If that means one cannot afford a certain lifestyle, then its a point to take into account from the begining
Benefits should benefit those that live in the country, and, the country of origin itself, end of
Hopefully that will be one good thing that comes from brexit, if nothing else does (and remember, I voted remain) not being in the EU will stop this open drain of money flooding out, with nothing coming back


----------



## KittenKong

While not exactly Brexit related seeing the scheme existed before the UK joined the EEC. It's going to end because of Brexit.

How very sad. I, for one, wasn't even aware of its existence.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> While not exactly Brexit related seeing the scheme existed before the UK joined the EEC. It's going to end because of Brexit.
> 
> How very sad. I, for one, wasn't even aware of its existence.
> 
> View attachment 412611
> View attachment 412612


https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/07/british-involvement-in-interrail-travel-scheme-hits-the-buffers

*British involvement in Interrail travel scheme back on track*


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> While not exactly Brexit related seeing the scheme existed before the UK joined the EEC. It's going to end because of Brexit.
> 
> How very sad. I, for one, wasn't even aware of its existence.
> 
> View attachment 412611
> View attachment 412612


scaremongering yet again


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> While not exactly Brexit related seeing the scheme existed before the UK joined the EEC. It's going to end because of Brexit.
> 
> How very sad. I, for one, wasn't even aware of its existence.
> 
> View attachment 412611
> View attachment 412612


Getting your "facts" from social media again I see

"Britain's train companies never wanted to leave Interrail.
We are pleased to be able to tell passengers that we have reached agreement and will be remaining part of both the Interrail and Eurail passes."

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2019/469775896-2019-08-08.html

It's was Eurorail that wanted out, not BR


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Getting your "facts" from social media again I see
> 
> "Britain's train companies never wanted to leave Interrail.
> We are pleased to be able to tell passengers that we have reached agreement and will be remaining part of both the Interrail and Eurail passes."
> 
> https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2019/469775896-2019-08-08.html
> 
> It's was Eurorail that wanted out, not BR


Since my post, there was a U-turn which of course is very good news.

But it doesn't make me any less anti Brexit. Far from it.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Since my post, there was a U-turn which of course is very good news.
> 
> But it doesn't make me any less anti Brexit. Far from it.


Nothing to do with Brexit though was it?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit though was it?


It had everything to do with Brexit. The original plan to end it soon after Brexit was far too coincidental.

Of course, Brexit is not blamed for this either...


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> It had everything to do with Brexit. The original plan to end it soon after Brexit was far too coincidental.
> 
> Of course, Brexit is not blamed for this either...
> 
> View attachment 412695


Obviously coincidences can't happen, its all a conspiracy theory you've been watching far too much mulder and scully
As for the economy, well it's well known that the housing market is a major player regarding the economy, the housing market is driven by first time buyers
At this present time there are very few, if indeed any, first time buyers out there, the starting price point is just too high (for example, in the small market town area I live in, there are more houses over 1million for sale, than there are under 150thousand) the last recession was mainly due to the collapse of the housing market, its even more likely this one will be. Its been on the cards a lot longer than the last three years


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> It had everything to do with Brexit. The original plan to end it soon after Brexit was far too coincidental.
> 
> Of course, Brexit is not blamed for this either...
> 
> View attachment 412695


https://luxtimes.lu/economics/38113-world-economy-edges-closer-to-recession-as-trade-woes-spread

*World economy edges closer to recession as trade woes spread*

https://www.ft.com/content/40c204ca-b8da-11e9-96bd-8e884d3ea203

*German industrial output fall exacerbates fears of recession*


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> It had everything to do with Brexit. The original plan to end it soon after Brexit was far too coincidental.


Umm it wasn't planned to stop after brexit. *It had nothing to do with brexit*. People would still have been able to buy Eurail or Interrail tickets if they really wanted. BR had trialed them for a year (after the brexit vote) and decided it wasn't necessary to offer them above their own tickets

Please show me any fact that points to it being something to do with brexit?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Umm it wasn't planned to stop after brexit. *It had nothing to do with brexit*. People would still have been able to buy Eurail or Interrail tickets if they really wanted. BR had trialed them for a year (after the brexit vote) and decided it wasn't necessary to offer them above their own tickets
> 
> Please show me any fact that points to it being something to do with brexit?


You, of course have every right to believe in the sunny uplands that will result when uncle Boris or Farage, take your pick, get 'us' out of the EU.

I can't agree that this wouldn't have been proposed had it not been for Brexit however. It's all about isolating 'ourselves' from the rest of Europe. For many years past governments have worked towards becoming part of Europe, only vettoed by the French President, until 1973.

Now, it seems disabled people who travel outside the UK will soon need additional documentation now their parking permits will no longer be valid outside the UK.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://luxtimes.lu/economics/38113-world-economy-edges-closer-to-recession-as-trade-woes-spread
> 
> *World economy edges closer to recession as trade woes spread*
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/40c204ca-b8da-11e9-96bd-8e884d3ea203
> 
> *German industrial output fall exacerbates fears of recession*


I hope there will not be a recession?


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Now, it seems disabled people who travel outside the UK will soon need additional documentation now their parking permits will no longer be valid outside the UK.
> View attachment 412729
> View attachment 412730


This sounds like another batch of scaremongering...


----------



## KittenKong

Nothing to do with Brexit either, of course.
Perhaps they want the GBP to equal the USD to make both currencies accepted in the UK?

The UK is set to become part of the USA after all...


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> This sounds like another batch of scaremongering...


Ah yes, everything will be exactly as what we enjoy now. Perhaps within the UK yes, but within the rest of Europe post no deal Brexit???

Even some complacent Remainers think nothing will change.

But change, or in other words turning the clock back to the "Good old days", is what you voted for, right?


----------



## Guest

I wasn't reading what was being said properly. So this post was a waste of time. Sorry.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Ah yes, everything will be exactly as what we enjoy now. Perhaps within the UK yes, but within the rest of Europe post no deal Brexit???
> 
> Even some complacent Remainers think nothing will change.
> 
> But change, or in other words turning the clock back to the "Good old days", is what you voted for, right?




Ok. Explain how Norway and Switzerland are both part of the reciprocal blue badge agreement?


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Ok. Explain how Norway and Switzerland are both part of the reciprocal blue badge agreement?


That's easy. Norway is in the EEA and Switzerland have a similar arrangement. Note the EU/EEA/CH channel at airports.

They have to accept FoM as part of that deal which the UK has ruled out as the Tories and Labour under Corbyn don't want that right for UK citizens.


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> But change, or in other words turning the clock back to the "Good old days", is what you voted for, right?


Oh God!
Change the flipping record ! Do you not realise that droning on, repeating the same tired old rhetoric, makes people stop listening and paying attention

As the queen once said........
Even happy birthday gets boring after a while


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> That's easy. Norway is in the EEA and Switzerland have a similar arrangement. Note the EU/EEA/CH channel at airports.
> 
> They have to accept FoM as part of that deal which the UK has ruled out as the Tories and Labour under Corbyn don't want that right for UK citizens.


Unsure what the blue badge has got to do with freedom of movement. But you carry on...


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> Oh God!
> Change the flipping record ! Do you not realise that droning on, repeating the same tired old rhetoric, makes people stop listening and paying attention
> 
> As the queen once said........
> Even happy birthday gets boring after a while


Just count your blessings! There was a time when the UK was being compared to Germany in the 1930's and TM to Hitler, Idi Amin, Mugabe and the country was going to end up in the same state as North Korea!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> I hope there will not be a recession?


Potential there could be a recession but not in the UK because Johnson has a magic money tree.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Unsure what the blue badge has got to do with freedom of movement. But you carry on...


The EU blue badge allows it to be used throughout the EEA area, which includes Norway and Switzerland.

Perhaps not exactly FoM related, but Freedom of use throughout the EEA.

But they'll soon be invalid except in the UK and as the EHIC will soon be.


----------



## rona

3dogs2cats said:


> Potential there could be a recession but not in the UK because Johnson has a magic money tree.


No he's Bojo hood, money is stolen from the poor to give to the rich to keep the money go round going round and round and round


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> No he's Bojo hood, money is stolen from the poor to give to the rich to keep the money go round going round and round and round


And "boing"said Zebedee!


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Even happy birthday gets boring after a while


 . . . and the Queen should know, bless her, she's had plenty.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> The EU blue badge allows it to be used throughout the EEA area, which includes Norway and Switzerland.
> 
> Perhaps not exactly FoM related, but Freedom of use throughout the EEA.
> 
> But they'll soon be invalid except in the UK and as the EHIC will soon be.


So nothing then? Thanks that's cleared that up


----------



## cheekyscrip

Recession is on the cards, just ask BoE but obviously who needs experts?
The scaremongers BoE should be disbanded and replaced by BoJo elected committee of Brexit positive enthusiastic worshippers.

They will receive the True Blue Badge with the Lion and the Unicorn ( of course).


The disbanded pessimistic renegades would be obliged to wear a yellow star on blue background badge.

And banned from any office.


London and Oxford where the pessimism was the highest will best be fenced to stop it from spreading.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Recession is on the cards, just ask BoE but obviously who needs experts?


No one has disputed that but it will be more global lead rather than a result of Brexit. That won't help of course but it will not be the cause

https://www.worldfinancialreview.com/the-predicted-2020-global-recession/


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> No one has disputed that but it will be more global lead rather than a result of Brexit. That won't help of course but it will not be the cause
> 
> https://www.worldfinancialreview.com/the-predicted-2020-global-recession/


I meant UK.

Pound is diving.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Recession is on the cards,


The ECB are saying three economies in Europe are either on the verge of recession or are in recession. These three countries are Germany, Italy and the UK. The recession in Germany would be due to a fall in Employment rates or should I say rise in unemployment rates for the second time in three months, Italy's debt crisis has been made worse by political uncertainity and the UK's economy has contracted for the first time since 2012 by 0.2% between April and June 2019.

Edited
Germany is Europe's biggest economy. Germany is very much reliant on foreign exports, which means that it's a victim of slowing global trade from the China-US trade war.

On Friday, Italy's deputy prime minister called for a no-confidence vote in its government. It sent markets plunging, and bond yields rocketing, 17 basis points to 0.225%.

Italian debt to GDP is over 130% - historically high - and it doesn't look like it'll improve.

The UK economy contracted for the first time since 2012, a clear sign of the effects of the uncertainty "no-deal" Brexit is having on the UK economy.

The referendum result or Brexit if you want to call it that is not the sole reason why there would be a recession. The US trade war with China has made things worse and Politicians around the world are being advised to change course otherwise there will be a worldwide recession. The recession would happen even without Brexit in the eqaution to say a worldwide recession would be sparked solely because of Brexit is untrue. There are countries here in Europe struggling for various reasons like those mentioned above.

The ECB have said they may cut interest rates in September 2019 but interest rates are already -0.4%.The ECB hasn't got much to offer to help provide stimulous which could spell trouble for the European Union. Banks would suffer from an interest rate cut because it would mean that banks reduce further bank lending (because banks would lose money) by doing so and interest rates are already negative (-0.4%). So Europe looks pretty stuck if there is a a recession or global recession.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> The ECB are saying three economies in the European Union are either on the verge of recession or are in recession. These three countries are Germany, Italy and the UK. The recession in Germany would be due to a fall in Employment rates or should I say rise in unemployment rates for the second time in three months, Italy's debt crisis has been made worse by political uncertainity and the UK's economy has contracted for the first time since 2012 by 0.2% between April and June 2019.
> 
> Edited
> Germany is Europe's biggest economy. Germany is very much reliant on foreign exports, which means that it's a victim of slowing global trade from the China-US trade war.
> 
> On Friday, Italy's deputy prime minister called for a no-confidence vote in its government. It sent markets plunging, and bond yields rocketing, 17 basis points to 0.225%.
> 
> Italian debt to GDP is over 130% - historically high - and it doesn't look like it'll improve.
> 
> The UK economy contracted for the first time since 2012, a clear sign of the effects of the uncertainty "no-deal" Brexit is having on the UK economy.


Our economy bounced back after the crisis 2008 and was on the roll, pound was a brick...
Till referendum because obviously all the threats of recession, pound crashing, losing passporting rights was Project Fear.

Hard Brexit will shrink economy according to BoE - possibly by 9% .
Unemployment will rise. Stability will fall.

But obviously our new PM Tory elected wants that.

Because we will be free. To be satellite country of USA.

Is it worth it????

Leaving EU basically was handing it in to Germany.

How that was sensible???

I am perfectly aware why our ERG wants out of MIFID2 and EU Directives.

Don't get me wrong, I admit there is something to it.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Leaving EU basically was handing it in to Germany.


What do you mean by this?

Germany are on the verge of recession or are already in recession themselves due to the US and China trade war. There unemployment rates are getting worse.

Italy has 130% GDP debt one of the highest and due to political turmoil in there country they are either in recession ot on the verge of it.

The UK economical turmoil is only a small cog in a bigger worldwide picture on recession.

For your information @cheekyscrip I would have voted remain if I was allowed to vote in the UK Referendum in 2016 but because life took me down a different path I became a Dutch citizen and gave up my UK citizenship and therefore was not entitled to vote in the UK as my life is over here now in the Netherlands and has been for the last 20 years.

I do keep a neutral stance on things and try to view things from both angles though and not just from the view point of my preferred option.


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Our economy bounced back after the crisis 2008 and was on the roll, pound was a brick...
> Till referendum because obviously all the threats of recession, pound crashing, losing passporting rights was Project Fear.
> 
> Hard Brexit will shrink economy according to BoE - possibly by 9% .
> Unemployment will rise. Stability will fall.
> 
> But obviously our new PM Tory elected wants that.
> 
> Because we will be free. To be satellite country of USA.
> 
> Is it worth it????
> 
> Leaving EU basically was handing it in to Germany.
> 
> How that was sensible???





saartje said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Germany are on the verge of recession or are already in recession themselves due to the US and China trade war. There unemployment rates are getting worse.
> 
> Italy had 130% GDP debt one of the highest and due to political turmoil in there country they are either in recession ot on the verge of it.
> 
> The UK wouldn't be handing Germany anything as there recession is nothing to with Brexit.
> 
> The UK economical turmoil is only a small cog in a bigger worldwide picture on recession.
> 
> For your information @Cheekscrip I would have voted remain if I was allowed to vote in the UK Referendum in 2016 but because life took me down a different path I became a Dutch citizen and gave up my UK citizenship and therefore was not entitled to vote in the UK as my life is over here now in the Netherlands and has been for the last 20 years.


Yes. It it was self made not a result of anything but the referendum, when the pound crashed etc...
Italy and Germany have other reasons for their.

Many countries are in recession and it has nothing to do with Brexit, but UK recession was very predictable.

Yes, I see why ERG wants out of MIFID2 . 
I could even understand some of their reasoning.

But you cannot have passporting rights without this level of EU supervision.


----------



## Guest

@cheekyscrip There is fear at the moment that there will be a worldwide recession due to various economies going into recession for various reasons and the US-China Trade war. It is scary not just for the UK but for many countries across Europe and around the world but the reasons for the worldwide recession if it happens won't be solely down to the UK's Referendum Result of 2016 and leaving the European Union as there are other economical problems going on beyond the United Kingdom as well.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> @cheekyscrip If there is going to be a recession it will be a worldwide one due to various economies going into recession. It is scary not just for the UK but for many countries across Europe and around the world but the reasons for the worldwide recession if it happens won't be solely down to the UK's Referendum Result of 2016 and leaving the European Union as there are other problems going on beyond the United Kingdom.


I was talking about our own, obviously world issues add to it, but without Brexit it would not have got us hit that hard.
Plus obviously Brexit has impact on EU economy and EU economy has major impact on world economy.

So yes, UK's recession has global effects.

I could see that USA will profit on UK vulnerability though.
Trump supported Brexit for that very reason.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> I was talking about our own, obviously world issues add to it, but without Brexit it would not have got us hit that hard.
> Plus obviously Brexit has impact on EU economy and EU economy has major impact on world economy.
> 
> So yes, UK's recession has global effects.
> 
> I could see that USA will profit on UK vulnerability though.
> Trump supported Brexit for that very reason.


The problem the ECB has at the moment is it can only slash interest rates which will affect banks and would mean that the minus 40% then becomes a larger minus percentage making it very hard for banks for example to lend money. The ECB have admitted they don't have very much to offer apart from this.

I know you are concerned about the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union but please try to be factual about things. Yes it probably will tip the United Kingdom's economy into recession but will Brexit be the only reason for this? But I am only guessing. I try not to guess when replying and use facts.

European Countries already had problems before the United Kingdom's referendum and result in 2016 or Brexit if you want to call it that. The European Central Bank have admitted they don't have alot to offer to help if there is to be a major recession (some countries within Europe are already in recession or are on the verge of recession) like a worldwide one.

Going back to the question I asked, I still don't see what the UK would be handing to Germany if or when the UK leaves the European Union? Please explain what the UK would be handing to Germany.

Economies are very fragile things and there have been recessions in the past and the United Kingdom has pulled out of them before and so have other countries.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ession-crisis-2020-by-nouriel-roubini-2019-06

*The Growing Risk of a 2020 Recession and Crisis*

https://fortune.com/2019/06/04/next-recession-2020-predictions/
*A Majority of Economists Think the Next Recession Will Come by the 2020 Election*

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/mor...ade-war-means-global-recession-is-coming.html


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, someone else in waiting for a short sharp shock....

Well said Deborah Meaden.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, someone else in waiting for a short sharp shock....
> 
> Well said Deborah Meaden.
> View attachment 412916


Obviously means something to you, but I'm not sure what because it's totally out of context


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Obviously means something to you, but I'm not sure what because it's totally out of context


Nope. You not getting it either!!!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Obviously means something to you, but I'm not sure what because it's totally out of context


Deborah Meaden is a very successful businesswoman and one of the Dragons on Dragons Den (never watch it myself, but I know the name).

I believe she is pointing out to the Del-boy wannabe that post-Brexit the same border rules would apply to him as well as supermarkets, so any attempt to nip to France and back for a van load of groceries would end badly...


----------



## kimthecat

Tweet by a Remainer who thinks we get our bananas from Europe . Never notice any banana plantations there. 
Interestingly , according to the RHS you can grow fruiting banana trees in the right conditions in the UK


Matt Remainer Forever Esq...#FBPE #RevokeA50
@mattremains
Spoke to a Brexiteer in the pub...we got onto food....I asked a simple question...."where will we get our fruit from?".....response "we grow our own"......"bananas I asked" reply...."why not" See folks this is what we are up against #brexshit


----------



## kimthecat

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...stop-no-deal-brexit-gets-first-court-hearing/

A LEGAL bid to stop Boris Johnson forcing through a no-deal Brexit will have its first court hearing tomorrow.

The cross-party challenge - which is being backed by more than 70 MPs and peers - will be heard at the Court of Session before Lord Doherty.

It comes as a crowdfunding campaign backing the effort exceeded its £100,000 target.

Jolyon Maugham QC, director of the Good Law Project, which is behind the bid, said: "A man with no mandate seeks to cancel Parliament for fear it will stop him inflicting on an unwilling public an outcome they did not vote for and do not want.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Tweet by a Remainer who thinks we get our bananas from Europe . Never notice any banana plantations there.


Over 60% of Europe's bananas come from Spain or its territories, ie canary islands
Spain and its territories are part of Europe, so........


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Tweet by a Remainer who thinks we get our bananas from Europe . Never notice any banana plantations there.
> Interestingly , according to the RHS you can grow fruiting banana trees in the right conditions in the UK
> 
> 
> Matt Remainer Forever Esq...#FBPE #RevokeA50
> @mattremains
> Spoke to a Brexiteer in the pub...we got onto food....I asked a simple question...."where will we get our fruit from?".....response "we grow our own"......"bananas I asked" reply...."why not" See folks this is what we are up against #brexshit


I'm rather more amused they seem to think we a) have enough arable farmable land to grow enough to support the basic needs of the population (which hasn't been the case since about the industrial revolution era if memory serves), b) also have enough left over for luxury crops, and c) can get all of that land up and producing to capacity before Brexit happens


----------



## kimthecat

Good point Mrs Phas . My bananas are Windrush and the apples I have now are from New zealand


----------



## kimthecat

@Jesthar The cows and sheep will have to go ! 

@MrsPhas Good point . do you know what percentage is imported to the UK from Spain . ?
I buy Fair trade ones . One in three bananas bought in the UK are fair trade.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> @Jesthar The cows and sheep will have to go !


Probably, but I do wonder what crops they'd try and grow on some of the real livestock land - there's a reason the Welsh hills are used for sheep! 

I would like to see them lift restrictions on urban poultry, though - I'm currently not allowed to keep fowl under the terms of my deeds, but it would be efficient use of garden land even in a small patch like mine, as well as natural pest control


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I would like to see them lift restrictions on urban poultry, though - I'm currently not allowed to keep fowl under the terms of my deeds, but it would be efficient use of garden land even in a small patch like mine, as well as natural pest control


AFAIK we don't have any restrictions here . Is that a ban on all homes in your area ? I can understand they wouldn't want cockerals.
Years ago when we were more country /suburban , people used to keep chickens and rabbits to eat .


----------



## Magyarmum

I live in Hungary and the bananas I bought in my local Spar on Saturday come from Ghana!

So much for the EU:Sorry


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> @Jesthar The cows and sheep will have to go !
> 
> @MrsPhas Good point . do you know what percentage is imported to the UK from Spain . ?
> I buy Fair trade ones . One in three bananas bought in the UK are fair trade.


so do i, when allowed them, being low carb ( for health sake) i miss them terribly
surprisingly, maybe, I find that the majority of bananas, and plantains, imported directly into the UK, come from Latin America.
so, again, will not be affected by the dreaded brexit


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> so do i, when allowed them, being low carb ( for health sake) i miss them terribly
> surprisingly, maybe, I find that the majority of bananas, and plantains, imported directly into the UK, come from Latin America.
> so, again, will not be affected by the dreaded brexit


I love my bananas ! I have a spare tyre round my tummy but Im not giving up my daily banana


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> AFAIK we don't have any restrictions here . Is that a ban on all homes in your area ? I can understand they wouldn't want cockerals.
> Years ago when we were more country /suburban , people used to keep chickens and rabbits to eat .


It's probably in the deeds of all the houses on my estate (around the 90s, I think), no idea about other developments though. My granddad used to raise birds and catch rabbits, pretty sure my mum knows how to skin, pluck, and draw, though I've never had the chance to learn.



mrs phas said:


> so do i, when allowed them, being low carb ( for health sake) i miss them terribly
> surprisingly, maybe, I find that the majority of bananas, and plantains, imported directly into the UK, come from Latin America.
> *so, again, will not be affected by the dreaded brexit*


That would depend on whether the EU has trade deals with the countries in question, I guess. If they do, and we don't have a continuation agreement or a deal with the EU, it could well be affected. The whole thing is a lot more interconnected in so many more ways than I can get my head around, and there's naturally going to be fallout in thousands of directions no-one ever thought about.


----------



## Guest

Europe imports Bananas from Latin American countries, the USA and African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) countries. Here is what the European Commission says: https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/bananas_en

European countries also grow bananas as well in France (in Martinique and Guadeloupe), Spain (primarily in the Canary Islands), Portugal (on Madeira), Greece and Italy.

Europeans are major consumers of bananas bendy or not.


----------



## Guest

If the UK Government manages to get no deal which does seem highly likely then the UK will lose access to all the trade deals the European Union has. I don't know much about negotiating trade deals but I am sure that the European Union will have to agree to any trade deals the UK wishes to have that the European Union has already got with countries outside of the EU as the European Union have already got agreements and are trading with these countries outside of the EU.

So for instance if the UK wants a deal to import bananas from any of the countries outside of the European Union then the European Union would have a say in if the deal can be made as they are already trading partners with these countries and have trade agreements in place.

The UK would not be allowed to simply trade with any European Country if the United Kingdom leaves with no deal. So no bananas from France, Spain, Portugal, Greece or Italy as all European Countries trade through the European Union which the UK is leaving.

As I said I maybe wrong and if I am, I am happy to be corrected.


----------



## mrs phas

saartje said:


> If the UK Government manages to get no deal which does seem highly likely then the UK will lose access to all the trade deals the European Union has. I don't know much about negotiating trade deals but I am sure that the European Union will have to agree to any trade deals the UK wishes to have that the European Union has already got with countries outside of the EU as the European Union have already got agreements and are trading with these countries outside of the EU.
> 
> So for instance if the UK wants a deal to import bananas from any of the countries outside of the European Union then the European Union would have a say in if the deal can be made as they are already trading partners with these countries and have trade agreements in place.
> 
> The UK would not be allowed to simply trade with any European Country if the United Kingdom leaves with no deal. So no bananas from France, Spain, Portugal, Greece or Italy as all European Countries trade through the European Union which the UK is leaving.
> 
> As I said I maybe wrong and if I am, I am happy to be corrected.


But they will be able to trade directly with Latin America, African countries, Caribbean countries, all of which we did before joining the CM and all of which have suffered since we had to stop trading with them


----------



## Elles

A company has invested millions in new ripening factories in the U.K., as after brexit instead of going to Rotterdam for ripening, more will be transported directly to the U.K. for ripening.

https://www.producebusinessuk.com/i...pening-rooms-as-part-of-2m-investment-program

http://www.aafarmer.co.uk/news/halo...environmental-first-for-uk-fresh-produce.html

https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

There's all sorts of good stuff going on, but the news and petforums tends to stick to the woe is me strategy, with conspiracy sprinkles.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi.../existing-trade-agreements-if--the-uk-leaves-

*Existing trade agreements if the UK leaves the EU with no deal*

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/o...how-brexit-will-affect-sa-uk-trade-relations/

*ROB DAVIES: How Brexit will affect SA-UK trade relations*
*Significant progress has been made on the rollover of the Sadc economic partnership agreement into a functional standalone Sacu-Mozambique-UK agreement*

*https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/art...r-south-africa-says-the-uk-high-commissioner/*

*UK High Commissioner Nigel Casey says that post-Brexit, South Africa and the SADC-Mozambique bloc will be able to negotiate one-on-one trade deals with the UK, and not be tied to European Union restrictions.*


----------



## Guest

As I said I am quite happy to be corrected.

Edited.

Plus admittedly I do not keep up to date with the daily goings on with Brexit infact I know very little about what is going on except what is on here.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> As I said I am quite happy to be corrected.


You're probably right. The Eu members agreed to let the Eu deal with all that kind of thing and pay them to do it.


----------



## kimthecat

Ive got a song in my head now . Yes , we have no bananas !


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Ive got a song in my head now . Yes , we have no bananas !


This one by Banana Airlines: 




or this one by Billy Jones (1923):


----------



## Magyarmum

If we can't import bananas into the country, then at least no one can accuse the UK of becoming a banana republic!


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

I am still trying to figure out why people thought they would vote leave because of bananas. Anyway here is my contribution:


----------



## Magyarmum

My heart bleeds for them, poor dears!:Bawling:Bawling:Bawling

https://www.politico.eu/article/food-fight-eu-parliament-canteen/

*Food fight in EU Parliament canteen*
Lower prices in Commission and Council add to the outrage.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sign-sector-by-sector-trade-deals-says-bolton

*US and Britain could sign sector-by-sector trade deals, says Bolton*


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sign-sector-by-sector-trade-deals-says-bolton
> 
> *US and Britain could sign sector-by-sector trade deals, says Bolton*


53rd state here we come
Blair was Bush's poodle
Boris will be Trump's labradoodle


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> 53rd state here we come
> Blair was Bush's poodle
> Boris will be Trump's labradoodle


We can't possibly become the 53 rd state seeing that the US has only 50 states unless of course they've acquired two more overnight!

It's something that's been discussed for as long as I can remember and nothing's ever come of it ! And the way that things are going it's doubtful that either Bojo or Donny boy will be in power much longer!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-state-1075874.html

*`Wilson wanted UK to be US state'*

BY ALISON LITTLE Press Association
Sunday 24 January 1999 01:02


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> So for instance if the UK wants a deal to import bananas from any of the countries outside of the European Union then the European Union would have a say in if the deal can be made as they are already trading partners with these countries and have trade agreements in place.


I didn't read this properly. Are you saying that countries outside of the Eu agreed to let the Eu interfere with its trade deals with other countries outside of the Eu and that the Eu wanted them to?

If this were true it would be far worse than anyone thought and put the Eu in the position of a dictatorship. I don't think it has quite that much power, or that the egomaniacs who are in charge of some of the countries the Eu trade with would agree to it. The trade deal would be between the Eu and the country in question, the Eu shouldn't be able to tell them who else to deal with, or not.

When you consider that America has asked for embargoes and the like and not got them, I don't think the Eu would have much luck telling African countries they can't sell us what we want to buy.

I would imagine however, that if the Eu banned a particular import, because it was infected for example, we'd ban it too and wouldn't expect to be able to transport it across Europe, nor want to, but that would be different from the Eu telling outside countries they can't have trade deals with anyone else, or else.


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> We can't possibly become the 53 rd state seeing that the US has only 50 states unless of course they've acquired two more overnight!


I knew that
Speed answering is OK when ones brain is in gear beforehand:Sorry


----------



## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> I knew that
> Speed answering is OK when ones brain is in gear beforehand:Sorry


Don't worry ... my brain is very rarely in gear these days


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> We can't possibly become the 53 rd state seeing that the US has *only 50 states* unless of course they've acquired two more overnight!


There are 52 states in USA


----------



## Guest

*How Many States Are There in the United States?*

Currently, the US has a total of 50 states.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/how-many-states-are-there-in-the-united-states.html

If there is 52 the world atlas don't know about it.

Wikipedia also say there is 50 states.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> I didn't read this properly. Are you saying that countries outside of the Eu agreed to let the Eu interfere with its trade deals with other countries outside of the Eu and that the Eu wanted them to?
> 
> If this were true it would be far worse than anyone thought and put the Eu in the position of a dictatorship. I don't think it has quite that much power, or that the egomaniacs who are in charge of some of the countries the Eu trade with would agree to it. The trade deal would be between the Eu and the country in question, the Eu shouldn't be able to tell them who else to deal with, or not.
> 
> When you consider that America has asked for embargoes and the like and not got them, I don't think the Eu would have much luck telling African countries they can't sell us what we want to buy.
> 
> I would imagine however, that if the Eu banned a particular import, because it was infected for example, we'd ban it too and wouldn't expect to be able to transport it across Europe, nor want to, but that would be different from the Eu telling outside countries they can't have trade deals with anyone else, or else.


I did say if I was wrong I am happy to be corrected. Thank you for correcting me.


----------



## Magyarmum

Beat me to it! I was just about to post the same article!


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> There are 52 states in USA


50 

there's 51 in film land.  A very funny film .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_51st_State


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> I did say if I was wrong I am happy to be corrected. Thank you for correcting me.


I don't know whether you're right or not, I'm questioning it, because it would be terrible if it were true and the Eu had that kind of say globally. :Greedy

I don't know what goes on with secret deals and backhanders though. There's a lot of corruption.


----------



## kimthecat

What sort of deal does Boris want ? has he said ? I don't think he wants a deal , I think he wants to leave with No Deal . 

I know that people are angry that Mrs May wouldnt permit another referendum but she did try to get a deal through and they were all rejected.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> I don't know whether you're right or not, I'm questioning it, because it would be terrible if it were true and the Eu had that kind of say globally. :Greedy
> 
> I don't know what goes on with secret deals and backhanders though. There's a lot of corruption.


From what I have just read, if the UK leaves with no deal on the 31st October 2019 it would only be allowed to have trade deals with countries that the EU does not have trade deals with like the USA. The UK would still have to negotiate a free trade deal with the European Union to have tarrif free access to the EU's market according to this news article on BBC News:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47213842

So far the UK has agreed "continuity" deals with 12 countries and regions. These are:

Central America (signed 18 July)
Andean countries (15 May)
Norway and Iceland (2 April)
Caribbean countries (22 March)
Pacific Islands (14 March)
Liechtenstein (28 February)
Israel (18 February)
Palestinian Authority (18 February)
Switzerland (11 February)
The Faroe Islands (1 February)
Eastern and Southern Africa (31 January)
Chile (30 January)
In addition to this list, the UK has also announced a deal in principle with South Korea, which is "expected to be signed shortly".


----------



## Elles

Ah, I think it’s an interpretation problem.

The U.K. will no longer be part of any Eu deals and will have to arrange its own. 

Trade deals with Eu countries, ie the Eu market, (France, Germany, Netherlands etc) will have to go to through the Eu of course. The Eu market in this context isn’t the market the Eu has with the rest of the free world, it means the country members of the Eu, I believe, though the bbc could make it clearer.

After brexit the U.K. will be able to pursue trade deals with countries the Eu has no deal with, before brexit of course we can’t do that. As a member of the Eu, we pay for the Eu to negotiate on our behalf and aren’t permitted our own trade deals.

The U.K. has already arranged a trade deal with Switzerland after brexit for example, which of course the Eu have a trade deal with, but we can also arrange a deal with the USA which the Eu doesn’t have.

Deals that the Eu (and therefore the U.K.) currently have with countries outside the Eu, like Canada, will no longer be valid, of course. They’re deals between Canada and the Eu (for example) and Britain will not be a member of the Eu, any more than Japan or China are.

However some countries have agreed to continue with the same deal after brexit. Basically we’ll be signing a new deal, but it will be on the same terms that we have now as a member of the Eu. This has nothing to do with the Eu.

We will need to negotiate a new trade deal with the Eu after Brexit, if we want free trade with Europe and its countries.

We may be leaving with or without a withdrawal deal, but either way I’m certain there will eventually be a trade deal between Britain and the Eu. 

What deals Britain eventually agree with countries outside the Eu has nothing to do with the Eu. The BBC article is a badly written jumble imho and open to (mis)interpretation, but I believe does confirm what I thought, albeit in a very messy way, which I have probably just made even more messy.


----------



## Magyarmum

I've posted this before but it came up as "page not found"

IT gives a list of all the existing trade agreements the UK already has if the UK leaves without a deal.

Hope it works this time .................

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ing-trade-agreements-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-

Guidance

*Existing trade agreements if the UK leaves the EU with no deal*


----------



## Elles

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ements-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-without-a-deal

I think the link is missing part. This is what I get if I do a search for it.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ements-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-without-a-deal
> 
> I think the link is missing part. This is what I get if I do a search for it.


Sorry wrong person


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ements-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-without-a-deal
> 
> I think the link is missing part. This is what I get if I do a search for it.


Yep, that one works!

Kinda concerning how many of our biggest trading partners (outside of the EU, of course) are missing from the lists. Then again, they will probably want to hold out for far more beneficial terms (for them) than they get with the EU, and you can't fault them for that.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Sorry wrong person


Now that's definitely a mistake, I'm always right, so I can't be wrong.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Now that's definitely a mistake, I'm always right, so I can't be wrong.


Until you reach the point where three rights make a left...


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ements-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-without-a-deal
> 
> I think the link is missing part. This is what I get if I do a search for it.


How strange! I always check after I've posted a link and this one came up perfectly the first time but not when I tried again!


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Now that's definitely a mistake, I'm always right, so I can't be wrong.


OMG I thought there was only one person on PF who was a disciple of Schopenhauer!


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Now that's definitely a mistake, I'm always right, so I can't be wrong.


:Hilarious
Well I am normally always right to. 

I do admit when I am wrong though so I must not be right all the time.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> How strange! I always check after I've posted a link and this one came up perfectly the first time but not when I tried again!


Your link didn't work for me.
@Elles's link did work


----------



## kimthecat

More Boris stuff. Sorry !

His shocking school report . Still the same old Boris .


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> More Boris stuff. Sorry !
> 
> His shocking school report . Still the same old Boris .


Yep all these years later Johnson is still being called out for his irresponsible attitude by a Hammond!


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> Yep all these years later Johnson is still being called out for his irresponsible attitude by a Hammond!


That's rather spooky !


----------



## kimthecat

Lack of cauliflowers this year due to the heatwave. Wont miss them.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Now that's definitely a mistake, I'm always right, so I can't be wrong.


My Dad used to say he was always right. Except the one time he thought he was wrong, but he wasn't


----------



## samuelsmiles3

*Cauliflowers dwindle in UK as extreme weather takes its toll *

"_Britain is in the grip of a cauliflower crisis" :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious_


----------



## lullabydream

samuelsmiles3 said:


> *Cauliflowers dwindle in UK as extreme weather takes its toll *
> 
> "_Britain is in the grip of a cauliflower crisis" :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious_


Last time it was potatoes, well quite a few years back...no am not talking the potato famine...but the price of chips went up everywhere...funnily enough they never came back down when we have abundance of potatoes again!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I know that people are angry that Mrs May wouldnt permit another referendum but she did try to get a deal through and they were all rejected.


It was a dreadful deal which I'm pleased was rejected and quite rightly in my opinion.

It was one thing Brexit and Remain supporters could agree on, for obviously very different reasons.

Actually, with Christmas fast approaching at the time the UK is set to leave I very much doubt a No deal crash out will arise, unless politicians really have lost the plot and have gone completely insane.

More likely a request for another extension and the calling for a GE, or May's deal will be back which, with the threat of a no deal crash out, will be passed by Parliament.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> More Boris stuff. Sorry !
> 
> His shocking school report . Still the same old Boris .


Who on earth has managed to dig up his old school reports?


----------



## Calvine

lullabydream said:


> Last time it was potatoes, well quite a few years back...no am not talking the potato famine...but the price of chips went up everywhere...funnily enough they never came back down when we have abundance of potatoes again!


About ten years ago it was sprouts!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It was a dreadful deal which I'm pleased was rejected and quite rightly in my opinion.
> 
> It was one thing Brexit and Remain supporters could agree on, for obviously very different reasons.
> 
> Actually, with Christmas fast approaching at the time the UK is set to leave I very much doubt a No deal crash out will arise, unless politicians really have lost the plot and have gone completely insane.
> 
> More likely a request for another extension and the calling for a GE, or May's deal will be back which, with the threat of a no deal crash out, will be passed by Parliament.


I feel like we are walking on a tightrope. I cant see the Eu changing their minds and giving a Boris a better deal though I hope they do . 
To be honest i feel the MPs have already lost the plot and are insane  The parties have made it all about them and their quest for power rather than sorting a "good " Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> About ten years ago it was sprouts!


Yuk !


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> *Cauliflowers dwindle in UK as extreme weather takes its toll *
> 
> "_Britain is in the grip of a cauliflower crisis" :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious_


I finally managed to find a small cauliflower after weeks of there being none in any of the supermarkets where I normally shop. It cost me twice as much as I normally pay for one double the size. No broccoli either and it's been difficult to find spinach, which doesn't bother me too much because I just use chard from my garden instead.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Yuk !


Nothing wrong with a sprout as long as you don't over cook them or put a cross in the stalk that makes them soggy, then yes they are awful.

Just cook them for about 5 to 6 mins depending on size until a knife just goes though them, put butter and pepper on them they are fine.

Nothing worse than a soggy sprout.:Yuck


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I feel like we are walking on a tightrope. I cant see the Eu changing their minds and giving a Boris a better deal though I hope they do .
> To be honest i feel the MPs have already lost the plot and are insane  The parties have made it all about them and their quest for power rather than sorting a "good " Brexit.


The EU have made it perfectly clear the May deal is final and will not be up for further negotiation. I trust and hope they'll stick to their guns.

Johnson and, indeed Corbyn, are living in a fantasy land to believe they can start the negotiations all over again.

The EU have to, rightly, look after their own interests and of their member states. They owe the UK nothing. The UK chose to leave after all.

There's no such thing as a 'good' Brexit. The closest thing would have been a dedication to remaining part of the EEA plus Customs Union which would have been satisfactory, seeing that protects FoM rights and avoids the need for an Irish border.

Both strictly ruled out by Farage/Tories and Labour under Corbyn with their determination to end FoM.

That leaves us with May's deal which I expect might make a reappearance with Parliament voting to accept it in preference to a no deal crash out.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> That leaves us with May's deal which I expect might make a reappearance with Parliament voting to accept it in preference to a no deal crash out.


Do you honestly think that they will do this after refusing the deal so many times before? Surely they will stick to their guns in the UK Parliament as well. It is the MP's in Parliament that have made this situation arise as they have refused to accept the only deal being offered to the UK which is non-negotiable.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> The EU have to, rightly, look after their own interests and of their member states.


Correct. The European Union will continue to look after the remaining 27 countries, providing there is no domino effect (other countries wanting to leave the European Union) which could put the European Union in trouble. But saying that the European Union could already be in trouble as 3 countries are already or are on the verge of recession (Germany, Italy and the UK) and the UK has not left yet. If a worldwide recession happens the ECB (European Central Bank) has very little to offer except making the interest rates further negative (the interest rates are minus 40 at present) which would spell trouble for the banks.

Just to add the 3 countries on the verge of recession or are in recession have there own economical problems, 2 of which are not linked to Brexit at all in any way.


----------



## kimthecat

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAFNdQA?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

hope the link works,
Article in The Independent ,

An attempt to prosecute Boris Johnson over the claim that Britain gave the EU £350m a week has been thrown out by a judge.
Marcus Ball, a 29-year-old entrepreneur who has so far raised £570,000 for the case, sought permission to appeal to the Supreme Court.
But the bid was refused by Lady Justice Rafferty on Wednesday.
A judge initially summonsed Mr Johnson to appear in court over accusations of misconduct in public office in May, but the Divisional Court overturned the ruling in June.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAFNdQA?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare
> 
> hope the link works,
> Article in The Independent ,
> 
> An attempt to prosecute Boris Johnson over the claim that Britain gave the EU £350m a week has been thrown out by a judge.
> Marcus Ball, a 29-year-old entrepreneur who has so far raised £570,000 for the case, sought permission to appeal to the Supreme Court.
> But the bid was refused by Lady Justice Rafferty on Wednesday.
> A judge initially summonsed Mr Johnson to appear in court over accusations of misconduct in public office in May, but the Divisional Court overturned the ruling in June.


If they did prosecute Johnson they would have to prosecute all of them in the UK Parliament as they all lie to an extent, but saying that it is not just in the UK this happens (lying politicians I mean).


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> If they did prosecute Johnson they would have to prosecute all of them in the UK Parliament as they all lie to an extent, but saying that it is not just in the UK this happens (lying politicians I mean).


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/10/politics/donald-trump-lies-fact-check/index.html

*Donald Trump lies more often than you wash your hands every day*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> *Donald Trump lies more often than you wash your hands every day*


:Hilarious True


----------



## Guest

Ignore my post. I am half asleep. So I am sorry for this post.


----------



## kimthecat

@saartje Im not sure what you're apologising for . Im sure its not necessary .


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Environmentalist too self-important to worry about Brexit*
14th August 2019









*A MAN refuses to waste his time thinking about Brexit because intelligent people like him are more concerned with saving the planet.*

Tom Booker regularly tells friends and colleagues that destroying the environment would be far worse than a no-deal Brexit, something he believes has not occurred to them.

Administration assistant Booker said: "I've got a direct debit with Friends of the Earth and I cycle to work, so I can see the big picture.

"But most people can't grasp that the Earth becoming uninhabitable is more important than a recession and a few job losses. I actually feel sorry for them, not understanding things like I do.

"I told Lucy 'You won't be worrying about your sister's insulin when the human race is extinct', but she just stared at me. I expect she was feeling guilty about her carbon footprint."

Co-worker Donna Sheridan said: "Ironically he's probably helping to destroy the environment, because after speaking to the condescending pr*ck you feel like booting a penguin into landfill just for the hell of it."


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> @saartje Im not sure what you're apologising for . Im sure its not necessary .


I am terrible for saying sorry alot. I will try not to do it anymore on here.


----------



## rona

This should be on a different thread


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> This should be on a different thread


Don't follow you ..... what should be on a different thread?


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Don't follow you ..... what should be on a different thread?


Sorry, was on a new portable device and can't quite get used to it.
I'm one of those that has "issues" with touch screens 

I meant to link to your post. It should have gone on the climate change thread.I tried to put a winking smiley too but that didn't work either Came up on my screen but not on Forum 

I'm back to a keyboard now . Think I'll have to get one for my other device


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Sorry, was on a new portable device and can't quite get used to it.
> I'm one of those that has "issues" with touch screens
> 
> I meant to link to your post. It should have gone on the climate change thread.I tried to put a winking smiley too but that didn't work either Came up on my screen but not on Forum
> 
> I'm back to a keyboard now . Think I'll have to get one for my other device


I wasn't quite sure which thread to put it on but no reason why I shouldn't put it on both threads!


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> I am terrible for saying sorry alot. I will try not to do it anymore on here.


You can post as much as you like. I find your posts informative.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> You can post as much as you like. I find your posts informative.


Thank you.  But I don't really have much to say at the moment on this thread.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Thank you.  But I don't really have much to say at the moment on this thread.


Your posts are great, a different perspective from another country.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Your posts are great, a different perspective from another country.


I will hang around on this thread and will reply when I have something to say. A wise man once said if you have nothing to say it is best to say be quiet, or something like that.  The wise man was my dad :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

More British people are embracing the Dutch culture and renouncing their British Citizenship as the amount of British citizens applying for Dutch Nationality rises.

*More Brits agree to renounce British nationality to become Dutch*

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...renounce-british-nationality-to-become-dutch/


----------



## KittenKong

Taking back control= giving them control.

B******s


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> More British people are embracing the Dutch culture and renouncing their British Citizenship as the amount of British citizens applying for Dutch Nationality rises.
> 
> *More Brits agree to renounce British nationality to become Dutch*
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...renounce-british-nationality-to-become-dutch/


Will they have to wear clogs?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 413842
> Taking back control= giving them control.
> 
> B******s


OAPs have the worst poverty rate in western Europe. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/18/elderly-poverty-risen-fivefold-since-80s-pensions

The proportion of elderly people living in severe poverty in the UK is five times what it was in 1986, the largest increase among western European countries, according to a new study.

The rise, from 0.9% of the elderly population to around 5%, is attributable to Britain's state pension system and its "low basic payments and means-tested supplements", says the author of the report, Pension Reforms and Old Age Inequalities in Europe.


----------



## kimthecat

This is OT but if Scotland refuses to ban puppy farming like England and Wales then it could become a loophole to a cruel trade. 


Marc Abraham
@marcthevet
·
19m
Thanks
@Dr_Dan_1
for pointing out that if
@scotgov
continue to refuse to adopt #LucysLaw, Scotland will indeed become next capital of cruel puppy farming/dealing on UK mainland. Extremely worrying. #LucysLaw4Scotland


----------



## Guest

The Netherland's is due it's annual budget for 2020 and it is not looking very good reading: https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2...budget-here-are-four-lessons-for-the-cabinet/ Alarm bells are already ringing because of Trump's trade war with China because it will have ramifications for world trade, the German economy is losing impetus, the UK is heading for a no-deal Brexit and Italy is increasingly going its own way politically, putting the euro at risk, among other things.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> The Netherland's is due it's annual budget for 2020 and it is not looking very good reading: https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2...budget-here-are-four-lessons-for-the-cabinet/ Alarm bells are already ringing because of Trump's trade war with China because it will have ramifications for world trade, the German economy is losing impetus, the UK is heading for a no-deal Brexit and Italy is increasingly going its own way politically, putting the euro at risk, among other things.


That's the trouble with interlinking everyone. 

Each country should be as self sustaining as possible, I know most countries wouldn't be self sufficient and we need to trade but the more we can support ourselves the more stable our economies and when one goes down, it may not be a domino effect where we all go down.
This virtual world of money go round is not sustainable in the long term, it's a figment of the imagination of the rich


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> OAPs have the worst poverty rate in western Europe.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/18/elderly-poverty-risen-fivefold-since-80s-pensions
> 
> The proportion of elderly people living in severe poverty in the UK is five times what it was in 1986, the largest increase among western European countries, according to a new study.
> 
> The rise, from 0.9% of the elderly population to around 5%, is attributable to Britain's state pension system and its "low basic payments and means-tested supplements", says the author of the report, Pension Reforms and Old Age Inequalities in Europe.


Plus the UK will soon have the highest retirement rate in the world.

This has infuriated me as I was looking forward to retiring in 13 years time, only to be told I have to work an additional eight years on top of that.

So, not only have they made it considerably more difficult to retire overseas through the ending of FoM, I'm forced to work for an additional eight years as well.

But, I guess people had to find out the hard way that the EU weren't responsible for this....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Plus the UK will soon have the highest retirement rate in the world.
> 
> This has infuriated me as I was looking forward to retiring in 13 years time, *only to be told I have to work an additional eight years on top of that.*
> 
> So, not only have they made it considerably more difficult to retire overseas through the ending of FoM, I'm forced to work for an additional eight years as well.


No you weren't, you were already going to retire at 65 and have known that nearly all of your working life as it was announced in 1995 for women. You could always fund your own early retirement


----------



## Elles

Iain Duncan Smith wants to raise the retirement age to 75, as work is life enhancing apparently. He wants Boris to phase it in over the next 16 years. They should give Mr Duncan Smith a proper job and see how long he wants to work in it then. 

It’s probably a ploy to sneak in a lesser increase.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Plus the UK will soon have the highest retirement rate in the world.
> 
> This has infuriated me as I was looking forward to retiring in 13 years time, only to be told I have to work an additional eight years on top of that.
> 
> So, not only have they made it considerably more difficult to retire overseas through the ending of FoM, I'm forced to work for an additional eight years as well.
> 
> But, I guess people had to find out the hard way that the EU weren't responsible for this....


I think you need to look at the timescales being mooted.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Iain Duncan Smith wants to raise the retirement age to 75, as work is life enhancing apparently. He wants Boris to phase it in over the next 16 years. They should give Mr Duncan Smith a proper job and see how long he wants to work in it then.
> 
> It's probably a ploy to sneak in a lesser increase.


I think we are all aware that the age was going to be raised several times. The baby boom is just a good excuse. 
Though how they can carry on I don't know as life expectancy has fallen. Before long, retirement age will be older than life expectancy


----------



## Guest

The UK is not the only country to be putting up retirement age. Over here in the Netherlands the retirement age was put up to 66 in 2018 and in 2021 it is going up to 67 and 3 months but nobody is moaning about it that I know of.

Over here you can keep working as well after retirement if you wish and are able to, alot of people do, I have a 75 year old colleague at work and he only works part time (3 days a week) and says he would rather do this than be lonely at home as his wife died 10 years ago.


----------



## Elles

We’re self employed with our own business and no private pensions, so we’ll keep working until we drop anyway, but it’s different when you work for yourself and I think depends on your job. They used to say people should retire to give the young a chance at work.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> We're self employed with our own business and no private pensions, so we'll keep working until we drop anyway, but it's different when you work for yourself and I think depends on your job. They used to say people should retire to give the young a chance at work.


Yeah but that was when there was more young people than old. Us baby boomers have really screwed the system. They need us to keep working to pay for our own, poor, miserable aged existence


----------



## Magyarmum

I think you'll find the majority of EU countries have or are about to, increase the retirement age.

Hungary already has.

Countries outside the EU such as Canada and Australia are showing the same trend.

But as always some people like to blame everything on Brexit! :Meh

https://dailynewshungary.com/raising-retirement-age-in-hungary-the-sky-is-the-limit/

*Raising retirement age in Hungary - the sky is the limit?*

https://www.etk.fi/en/the-pension-system/international-comparison/retirement-ages/

*Retirement ages in different countries*


----------



## Guest

The above information is supplied by the Finnish Centre for Pensions and it is an interesting read: https://www.etk.fi/en/the-pension-system/international-comparison/retirement-ages/

Nearly every country including the USA are putting up the retirement age again between 2020 and 2030 not just the UK.

Brexit is not the cause of the retirement age going up and is not related to the UK's decision to leave the European Union, it is an entirely separate subject. The retirement age is going up due to people living longer.


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> The retirement age is going up due to people living longer.


I've seen figures suggesting that in the poorest areas of the UK average lifespan for men is less than the suggested state pension age of 75 so over one third would have no hope of ever getting it.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> View attachment 413949
> 
> View attachment 413950
> 
> View attachment 413951
> 
> View attachment 413952
> 
> View attachment 413953
> 
> View attachment 413954
> 
> View attachment 413955
> View attachment 413955
> 
> View attachment 413956
> 
> The above information is supplied by the Finnish Centre for Pensions and it is an interesting read: https://www.etk.fi/en/the-pension-system/international-comparison/retirement-ages/
> 
> Nearly every country including the USA are putting up the retirement age again between 2020 and 2030 not just the UK.
> 
> Brexit is not the cause of the retirement age going up and is not related to the UK's decision to leave the European Union, it is an entirely separate subject. The retirement age is going up due to people living longer.


Exactly! You're confirming what I said in my post.

In fact, Eastern and Central European countries could place some of the blame on the EU's Freedom of Movement Policy which has resulted in Hungary for example, losing some 339,000 younger skilled people to wealthier EU countries such as the UK and Germany. It might not seem many people but when you consider the population of Hungary is fewer that 10 million people, it's quite a significant loss!

https://bbj.hu/analysis/hungarians-working-abroad-above-eu-average-_149883

*Hungarians working abroad above EU average*


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> No you weren't, you were already going to retire at 65 and have known that nearly all of your working life as it was announced in 1995 for women. You could always fund your own early retirement


No, I have to retire at 67 as I was born in late 1965. I'll turn 70 in late 2035, so as far as things currently look I'll be forced to work until late 2040.
As for funding for my retirement my original pension scheme was halted in 2015 with us at a certain age automatically changing to a new scheme that pays out at 67. I would have also qualified for the state pension then, but by that time I now probably won't be.

Try funding another pension schemewith wages much the same as they were 10 years ago!



MilleD said:


> I think you need to look at the timescales being mooted.


I have. Unless I'm mistaken this applies to people born after 1960.

Whether it applies to me personally or not, it's appalling those in the UK will have the longest working life anywhere in the civilised world.


----------



## KittenKong

Going back to some comments earlier, it's good to see Iceland are selling their eggs as Scottish again.

Guess there must have been a backlash when they tried selling them as "British" despite coming from the same supplier.


----------



## kimthecat

is it definite they are going to bring this in? I expected to retire at 60 and wont get my state pension until I am 66 so that's an extra 6 years I have to wait. 
people in their 50s now will work til 67 and people in their 40s until 68 .


----------



## Magyarmum

I think I'm correct in saying that the UK retirement age for women started to creep up from the year 2000. I received my pension at the age of 60 but my best friend who's 2 years younger than me was 60 plus a few months before she received hers.

An article from Fact Check 2017 wgich might help to clarify ..............

https://fullfact.org/economy/increasing-state-pension-age/

*Increasing the state pension age*


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong other countries will have the retirement age increased to 67 like the Netherlands, Spain, USA, Greece, Italy, Germany, France, Croatica, Denmark, Belgium and in Ireland it is going to be 68 and Iceland is already 67. The UK is not the only country to be putting up the retirement age. The increases will take place between 2020 to 2030.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Going back to some comments earlier, it's good to see Iceland are selling their eggs as Scottish again.
> 
> Guess there must have been a backlash when they tried selling them as "British" despite coming from the same supplier.
> View attachment 413968


Oh I bet the backlash was MASSIVE. Riots in the streets, mass destruction of Iceland stores....

Or they just have some old packaging to use up.


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> @KittenKong other countries will have the retirement age increased to 67 like the Netherlands, Spain, USA, Greece, Italy, Germany, France, Croatica, Denmark, Belgium and in Ireland it is going to be 68 and Iceland is already 67. The UK is not the only country to be putting up the retirement age. The increases will take place between 2020 to 2030.


Fairly surprised about how many countries still have different ages for men and women in your charts!

I guess the feminists have kept their heads down over that one....


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> No, I have to retire at 67 as I was born in late 1965. I'll turn 70 in late 2035, so as far as things currently look I'll be forced to work until late 2040.
> As for funding for my retirement my original pension scheme was halted in 2015 with us at a certain age automatically changing to a new scheme that pays out at 67. I would have also qualified for the state pension then, but by that time I now probably won't be.
> 
> Try funding another pension schemewith wages much the same as they were 10 years ago!
> 
> I have. Unless I'm mistaken this applies to people born after 1960.
> 
> Whether it applies to me personally or not, it's appalling those in the UK will have the longest working life anywhere in the civilised world.


You are older than my OH and he will retire at 68, I don't think they will change that now, as his retirement like mine has risen twice but it will increase gradually over the following years.
You could have taken out your own pension you know, you don't have to rely on someone else to sort out your retirement


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> Fairly surprised about how many countries still have different ages for men and women in your charts!
> 
> I guess the feminists have kept their heads down over that one....


I have to pay more on my car insurance now . Years back , womans car insurance was cheaper than mens. 
Plus extra 6 years to work for pension


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted


----------



## Guest

The European Union is remaining steadfast even though Boris Johnson wants to renegotiate the deal. It isn't going to happen. The UK wanted to leave so the only deal available is on the table.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Me thinks this vile psychopath has some sympathy for the Idi Armin regime that saw many Asians deported including her own parents.
> 
> Then, wasn't Robert Mugabe seen as an oppressed person because of his skin colour in the days of Rhodesia, who was equally hostile towards "differences" and even towards his own people on getting power?
> 
> Not the first, nor the last...
> 
> View attachment 413991


OMG We've dug out that old record have we?

Can't you choose someone more contempory like Assad or Duterte?

At least the younger members of PF would know who you're refering to!:Meh


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> OMG We've dug out that old record have we?
> 
> Can't you choose someone more contempory like Assad or Duterte?
> 
> At least the younger members of PF would know who you're refering to!:Meh


I must admit, and I am an older (ish) member (not revealing my age ), I have struggled with some of the names being mentioned and have had to a quick google search. :Wideyed.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I must admit, and I am an older (ish) member (not revealing my age ), I have struggled with some of the names being mentioned and have had to a quick google search. :Wideyed.


I'm considerably older than you and can remember Idi Amin and his expulsion of the Indian population from Uganda. I have very good friends who live in Zimbabwe who tell me that even now, despite Mugabe having gone, life isn't much different.

Any minute now I'm expecting Brexit to be likened to the Mau Mau uprising, which, as a teenager, I well remember!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising

*Mau Mau Uprising*


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Tuesday 20 August 2019 by Donald Bump*

*Ending freedom of movement could see Santa barred from delivering in the UK after Brexit*









*Changes to Britain's immigration system after it leaves the European Union may stop Santa Claus from making his annual festive flying visit, it has emerged.*

Santa currently uses European freedom of movement rights to fly his sleigh from Lapland into British skies to conduct his annual delivery business.

However, with Britain looking increasingly likely to leave the EU without a deal, the jolly old man is likely to face the same immigration curbs as other Laplanders in future.

Work permits are expected to be introduced, and legal experts warn that the tradition of parents providing a glass of sherry and a mince pie in return for Santa leaving presents by the fireplace constitutes an informal work arrangement - thereby making it impossible for the iconic figure to gain permission to enter the country without the correct paperwork.

Any attempt to make deliveries without permission from the immigration authorities could see Santa arrested, according to legal experts.

Brexit Party leader, chief executive, chairman and owner, Nigel Farage said, "This is just another example of a foreigner coming over here taking the job of a decent hardworking indigenous British national who could easily spend the night delivering presents instead.

"I'll be delighted to see the end of it."

In a further complication, the government is believed to favour including reindeer in its annual immigration target.

Boris Johnson is believed to favour a quota of four reindeer per year for the whole country, which friends of Santa say would make the job of pulling his present-laden sleigh close to impossible.

The issue has been raised at cabinet level, with one minister said to have raised concerns that millions of children may be disappointed, only to have been drowned out by shouts of "bah humbug!"

Meanwhile, the Sun is investigating claims that hundreds of Laplanders are cheating immigration controls by masquerading as Santa in shopping centres across the country.

It has published images it claims to be the real Santa supervising elves back in Lapland in the run-up to Christmas while the fake Santas pose for photos with unsuspecting children.


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Me thinks this vile psychopath has some sympathy for the Idi Armin regime that saw many Asians deported including her own parents.
> 
> Then, wasn't Robert Mugabe seen as an oppressed person because of his skin colour in the days of Rhodesia, who was equally hostile towards "differences" and even towards his own people on getting power?
> 
> Not the first, nor the last...
> 
> View attachment 413991


You haven't identified who you actually mean, when you label them a psychopath
Priti Patel
Selby
Or
The person living in Luxembourg, who may lose her cushty life

However, likening any of them to Amin or Mugabe, is a little beyond the pale, don't you think?
Cos, I'm pretty sure, any that suffered under those regimes, would think so

Its so easy to cast accusations and aspersions from your safe, ivory tower


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> View attachment 413949
> 
> View attachment 413950
> 
> View attachment 413951
> 
> View attachment 413952
> 
> View attachment 413953
> 
> View attachment 413954
> 
> View attachment 413955
> View attachment 413955
> 
> View attachment 413956
> 
> The above information is supplied by the Finnish Centre for Pensions and it is an interesting read: https://www.etk.fi/en/the-pension-system/international-comparison/retirement-ages/
> 
> Nearly every country including the USA are putting up the retirement age again between 2020 and 2030 not just the UK.
> 
> Brexit is not the cause of the retirement age going up and is not related to the UK's decision to leave the European Union, it is an entirely separate subject. The retirement age is going up due to people living longer.


It had already started gong up well before Brexit was on the cards . . . I believe in the Nineties?


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> You haven't identified who you actually mean, when you label them a psychopath
> Priti Patel
> Selby
> Or
> The person living in Luxembourg, who may lose her cushty life
> 
> However, likening any of them to Amin or Mugabe, is a little beyond the pale, don't you think?
> Cos, I'm pretty sure, any that suffered under those regimes, would think so
> 
> Its so easy to cast accusations and aspersions from your safe, ivory tower


Oh, come on! You're not seriously suggesting these are nice people are you?

Having said that, I have taken on board some of what you said and have amended my post accordingly.

Once again, you've taken something asked as a question to invite comment into a personal belief.

As for Ms Patel, she's keen to extend Theresa May's hostile environment for EU citizens. Even the architect of the policy wanted this phased in, not to happen overnight.

Imagine going on holiday, then refused re-entry into the UK as the settled status application has been delayed for whatever reason? The NHS would be deprived of many staff as a result for example.

You don't think UK citizens living in some other EU countries won't face equal hostility in a tit for tat fashion?

I don't know how anyone can defend this to be honest.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> The European Union is remaining steadfast even though Boris Johnson wants to renegotiate the deal. It isn't going to happen. The UK wanted to leave so the only deal available is on the table.


Indeed. Johnson and Corbyn are dellusional to believe they can re-negotiate the deal as agreed between them and Theresa May.

The EU are rightly putting their needs first. The UK voluntarily want to leave after all.

They owe the UK nothing. They chose to assign themselves closer than ever to complete USA domination.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. Johnson and Corbyn are dellusional to believe they can re-negotiate the deal as agreed between them and Theresa May.
> 
> The EU are rightly putting their needs first. The UK voluntarily want to leave after all.
> 
> They owe the UK nothing. They chose to assign themselves closer than ever to complete USA domination.


Actually on the BBC news th is morning , they traveled to difference cities like Hamburg to interview people and they said they will lose out if there is no deal so they're not really putting their needs first . It said there are close ties between Germany and the but Angela thinks its more important to have borders to the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Actually on the BBC news th is morning , they traveled to difference cities like Hamburg to interview people and they said they will lose out if there is no deal so they're not really putting their needs first . It said there are close ties between Germany and the but Angela thinks its more important to have borders to the EU.


Typical BBC twisting things.
Brexit was mostly about, "Taking control of 'our' borders".
Of course this will result in borders between the UK and its former member states. That is likely to include between both parts of Ireland as well.

Why does this appear to surprise some people?


----------



## mrs phas

I 0


KittenKong said:


> Oh, come on! You're not seriously suggesting these are nice people are you?
> 
> Having said that, I have taken on board some of what you said and have amended my post accordingly.
> 
> Once again, you've taken something asked as a question to invite comment into a personal belief.
> 
> As for Ms Patel, she's keen to extend Theresa May's hostile environment for EU citizens. Even the architect of the policy wanted this phased in, not to happen overnight.
> 
> Imagine going on holiday, then refused re-entry into the UK as the settled status application has been delayed for whatever reason? The NHS would be deprived of many staff as a result for example.
> 
> You don't think UK citizens living in some other EU countries won't face equal hostility in a tit for tat fashion?
> 
> I don't know how anyone can defend this to be honest.


See, once again you show yourself to be a blinkered fool when answering posts that pull you up, when presenting your opinions as fact
No where did I say I defended anything, I merely pointed out that your post was morally reprehensible
BTW deleting your post, is not amending it and doesn't make it any less deplorable


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Typical BBC twisting things.
> Brexit was mostly about, "Taking control of 'our' borders".
> Of course this will result in borders between the UK and its former member states. That is likely to include between both parts of Ireland as well.
> 
> Why does this appear to surprise some people?


You have something in common with the BBC then. 
My point was , you said that the EU are putting themselves first when in fact they are damaging themselves by letting us leave with out a deal .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> You have something in common with the BBC then.
> My point was , you said that the EU are putting themselves first when in fact they are damaging themselves by letting us leave with out a deal .


This article's from the beginning of the year, but despite the change of leader, opinions in Hungary haven't changed.

https://bbj.hu/special-report/how-might-brexit-effect-hungary_160069

*How Might Brexit Effect Hungary?*

*While the debate about Theresa May's proposed deal continues in Britain, a hard Brexit would definitely not be in Hungary's interest.*


----------



## Guest

*Bye bye Britain: nearly 10,000 sign up for Dutch Brexit beach party*










Nearly 10,000 people have said so far they will be going to a Brexit beach party at the seaside resort of Wijk aan Zee on October 31 to wave out Britain, after a Facebook post went viral. By Wednesday, some 63,000 people had said they were interested in going to the bash and 9,600 would definitely be there - to eat Dutch crisps, and drink French wine and German beer. 'Watch from your beach chair when they wake up as a closed institution and, if necessary, deal with the boats of the pro-Europeans,' the Facebook post by freelance film maker Ron Toekook said.










'If there is enough demand, we can bring in a band to play… 'Het is stil aan de overkant' (it is quiet on the other side) en 'We'll meet again'. More musical suggestions are welcome.' Toekook told local news website NH Nieuws he got the idea from a holiday in Hawaii. 'When the sun goes down, everyone goes to the beach,' he said. 'You take your chairs and a bottle of wine and watch the sunset. Then I thought we could do the same sort of thing on October 31 for Brexit.' At the end of the week, Toekook says he will get down to talking about what the options are, including getting an event permit from the local council. 'A sort of British festival would be fun,' he said. 'Several bands have already said they would like to perform.'

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...y-10000-sign-up-for-dutch-brexit-beach-party/


----------



## kimthecat

That sounds fun! Are the Brits invited ?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> That sounds fun! Are the Brits invited ?


There might be sing alongs at the beach party like Julie Andrews "So long, farewell" song from The Sound of Music.

We do love a good party over here.

The Netherlands will always stay good friends with the UK and close allies.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> You have something in common with the BBC then.
> My point was , you said that the EU are putting themselves first when in fact they are damaging themselves by letting us leave with out a deal .


The EU can't stop the UK from leaving, deal or no deal. It's the UK's decision after all.

Damaging for the EU perhaps, yes, but I think they're better prepared than the UK is. No need for stockpiling for one thing.

Produce currently imported from the UK will be easily available within the 27 member states. Meat and dairy produce for example.

Not the case for the UK who'll soon become dependent on the US for some produce and medical supplies.

Yet, idiots like Johnson and Corbyn still believe they can re-negotiate the deal as they, rightly or wrongly, rejected the deal reached between May and the EU.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Damaging for the EU perhaps, yes, but I think they're better prepared than the UK is. No need for stockpiling for one thing.


The European Union is ready, correct. Unfortunately the 27 European Countries will have to increase there budgets into the European Union which will affect the 27 countries remaining in the European Unions economies financially having to find the money lost by the UK leaving the European Union.

Germany is going to suffer the most due to teetering on the verge of a recession already. Plus the European Union and the remaining 27 members in it after the UK leaves will have to decide what to do with Italy and there debt crisis and a global recession due to Trump's trade war with China if it happens as this will affect global trade.


----------



## Elles

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-of-macron-mps-over-trade-deals-idUKKCN1UY1VM

https://iegvu.agribusinessintelligence.informa.com/search#?regions=EU

Looks like the Eu members will be getting bleached chicken and antibiotic loaded beef before we will.


----------



## KittenKong

This is the reason why EU membership is so important.
It's not enough for Trump to be given the UK. He has his eyes on other none EU member states as well. Perhaps Putin will be putting his own bids in too.

We did try to warn you.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesus.

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http:...BV7UlbztzI3MzXXtkCUOkgxYBDN3dmQfXODMAgT0EBMtg


----------



## KittenKong

How utterly depressing. Guess we'll no longer be welcome as soon as the drawer bridge goes up.








https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...VYi3ufcLJKku8mnCuBhvZmFetQNF4GXMXKUmFZOqnF2dw


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> How utterly depressing. Guess we'll no longer be welcome as soon as the drawer bridge goes up.
> View attachment 414128
> 
> https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-day-beach-party-dutch-netherlands-amsterdam-wijk-aan-zee-a9072781.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1566395504&h=AT2QDdzF9ToO44KCJQ6f0rnXjJiN4MXyKZNPFaUNkimSMlZRDY5fgRv6kYhOFls50WZYAUe9hzgb1XWaQgx5iPh4J-zkeVYi3ufcLJKku8mnCuBhvZmFetQNF4GXMXKUmFZOqnF2dw


I have already posted about our proposed beach party.

It is a joke by the way.


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> How utterly depressing. Guess we'll no longer be welcome as soon as the drawer bridge goes up.
> View attachment 414128
> 
> https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-day-beach-party-dutch-netherlands-amsterdam-wijk-aan-zee-a9072781.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1566395504&h=AT2QDdzF9ToO44KCJQ6f0rnXjJiN4MXyKZNPFaUNkimSMlZRDY5fgRv6kYhOFls50WZYAUe9hzgb1XWaQgx5iPh4J-zkeVYi3ufcLJKku8mnCuBhvZmFetQNF4GXMXKUmFZOqnF2dw


*Drawbridge*

I think you've missed the humour element of this


----------



## Guest

mrs phas said:


> *Drawbridge*
> 
> I think you've missed the humour element of this


Yes it's true it was a joke. Obviously some people don't have a sense of humour and take things seriously all the time.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> This is the reason why EU membership is so important.
> It's not enough for Trump to be given the UK. He has his eyes on other none EU member states as well. Perhaps Putin will be putting his own bids in too.
> 
> We did try to warn you.
> View attachment 414109


His having a strop again because he can't have his own way with Green Land, he'll be trying to buy the UK if we leave the EU without a deal, and will soon get his feet under the table when we leave the EU, the whole thing is what nightmares are made of.


----------



## Elles

Why will Trump want to buy a bankrupt and failing country with starving people and riots, which is the predicted condition of the U.K. after a no deal brexit? Couldn’t he just buy Venezuela instead if that’s what he wants? I can see why the nutter wants Greenland, but no idea why he’d want to buy the U.K., when according to reports, Boris is his puppet and he has it for free anyway.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is the reason why EU membership is so important.
> It's not enough for Trump to be given the UK. He has his eyes on other none EU member states as well. Perhaps Putin will be putting his own bids in too.
> 
> We did try to warn you.
> View attachment 414109












I despair!

https://www.livescience.com/why-trump-wants-to-buy-greenland.html

*Trump Says He Wants to Buy Greenland. Here's Why.*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtre...mesis-china-is-there-before-him/#1bf3c3893f3c

*Trump Might Want to Buy Greenland But His Nemesis, China, Is There Before Him*


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Wednesday 21 August 2019 by Davywavy*

*Denmark counteroffers by offering to buy Puerto Rico*









*Denmark has responded to Donald Trump's offer to buy Greenland with a suggestion they buy Puerto Rico instead, as 'he's not taking very good care of it'.*

Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the USA, in a similar relationship to that enjoyed by Greenland and Denmark - but Danes point out that Greenlanders enjoy a far higher standard of living than Puerto Ricans.

Sources inside Denmark also suggested it would be 'unthinkable' not to help their fellows after a natural disaster in the way the United States did after hurricanes Irma and Maria.

"We can see many ways this is in everyone's interest," said Danish government spokesman Simon Williamssen.

"Per capita gdp in Puerto Rico is barely half that of Denmark, so we'd expect to see a dramatic and immediate improvement in living standards once the deal is done.

"And thanks to our socialised healthcare people in Denmark live longer than Puerto Ricans as part of the United States, so they'd have longer lives to enjoy their increased wealth once we take over."

Donald Trump is understood to be considering the offer, having privately described Puerto Rico as a 'shithole'.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> I despair!
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/why-trump-wants-to-buy-greenland.html
> 
> *Trump Says He Wants to Buy Greenland. Here's Why.*
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtre...mesis-china-is-there-before-him/#1bf3c3893f3c
> 
> *Trump Might Want to Buy Greenland But His Nemesis, China, Is There Before Him*


It is funny how different countries tell the news. We knew already that Trump wanting to buy Greenland was to do with China. The snow is melting in Greenland and land is appearing which is rich in natural resources. Denmark have made it clear that Greenland is not up for sale as they own Greenland.


----------



## stuaz

It's also worth noting that it's not the first time a President has proposed purchasing Greenland. Truman did the same. Back then it was more military reasons and to get a claim in the arctic circle.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> I have already posted about our proposed beach party.
> 
> It is a joke by the way.


What! I was looking forward to it. Better unpack my suitcase . :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> What! I was looking forward to it. Better unpack my suitcase . :Hilarious


:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> Yes it's true it was a joke. Obviously some people don't have a sense of humour and take things seriously all the time.


What a horrible and patronising post.

Some think Michael McIntyre is funny, because I don't doesn't mean I don't have a sense of humour. On the other hand I thought Bob Monkhouse, Dave Allen and Benny Hill were very funny.

I've posted jokes on this forum before that didn't go down well. I didn't accuse individuals of not having a sense of humour because they didn't find something I posted as a joke funny themselves.

There was nothing to suggest what you posted was a joke. Even if it was I didn't find it funny at all.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08...abd509c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_08_22_05_58&utm_m

*Why Britain, like Iceland, will thrive outside the EU*


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> What a horrible and patronising post.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What a horrible and patronising post.
> 
> Some think Michael McIntyre is funny, because I don't doesn't mean I don't have a sense of humour. On the other hand I thought Bob Monkhouse, Dave Allen and Benny Hill were very funny.
> 
> I've posted jokes on this forum before that didn't go down well. I didn't accuse individuals of not having a sense of humour because they didn't find something I posted as a joke funny themselves.
> 
> There was nothing to suggest what you posted was a joke. Even if it was I didn't find it funny at all.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong. You do seem to take offense at the smallest things.

Sorry that Dutch sense of humour doesn't quite hit the mark with your sense of humour as you took offense to it. Oh well.


----------



## kimthecat

To be fair l thought it was real too.


----------



## Magyarmum

.euronews.com/2019/08/22/macron-says-new-brexit-deal-not-an-option-ahead-of-boris-johnson-visit?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=macron-says-new

*Watch: Macron says he is 'confident' backstop solution can be found in 30 days*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> .euronews.com/2019/08/22/macron-says-new-brexit-deal-not-an-option-ahead-of-boris-johnson-visit?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=macron-says-new
> 
> *Watch: Macron says he is 'confident' backstop solution can be found in 30 days*


I cant open the thread,


----------



## Elles

I tried to google it, but all I can find is Macron saying the complete opposite.


----------



## KittenKong

J


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I tried to google it, but all I can find is Macron saying the complete opposite.


Sorry about that ..... hope the link works this time!

https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/22...al-not-an-option-ahead-of-boris-johnson-visit

*Watch: Macron says he is 'confident' backstop solution can be found in 30 days*


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 413842
> Taking back control= giving them control.
> 
> B******s


https://fullfact.org/economy/not-government-policy-state-pension/

*It's not government policy to raise the pension age to 75*


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> J
> View attachment 414263


We fought in Korea but refused to fight in Vietnam because we already knew it was a hopeless task .
With hind sight , its easy to say that the US was paranoid about communism but it was a real threat at the time .
I doubt very much that US pressure made him want to join the EU. More likely because of the total mess the country was in .

https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers/harold-wilson
In comparison, his outlook on foreign affairs was less modernising. He wanted to maintain Britain's world role by keeping the Commonwealth united and nurturing the Anglo-American alliance. For example, his approach to the Vietnam War saw him skilfully balance modernist ambitions with Anglo-American interests when, despite repeated American requests, he kept British troops out while still maintaining good relations.

I have a problem with Trump but not the US in general . I know we called Blair Bush's poodle but at the time the Americans called him Bush's guide dog.

ETA some of replies to the Guardian journalists tweet.


Will Hutton
@williamnhutton
Macron is right to warn of our impending vassalage to the US - a pitiless reverse colonisation. Harold Wilson became a convert to Europe after his experience over Vietnam. "Better to stand with other sovereign states in Europe than be bullied by the US", I learn he told an aide.
1:01 PM · Aug 22, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

Arthur Dent
@RealArthurDent
·
22h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
If only there were any sovereign states in the EU. A sovereign state has control of its own laws, it doesn't have to seek the approval of 27 other states to make changes.
1 more reply

Mark
@kaptain196
·
18h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
Sovereign states in Europe? That concept is evaporating fast.
10 more replies

#Impeach45

 Vulcan

Writer

Mom

@EvaChanda
·
22h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
and
@aliasvaughn
Particularly under its current dangerously insane, unfit POTUS
1 more reply

scott bennett
@mscottb1948
·
15h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
US or EU? That is the question. If I were British I'd not hesitate to pick US. EU a powerless Rube Goldberg machine led by feckless France and declining Germany.
2 more replies

Ahmed Sewehli
@LibyanIntegrity
·
13h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
It seems that Westerners are unaware of Macron military attacking Libya to depose the civilian government and replace it with a puppet brutal military dictator. Macron the fascist talking about colonisation!
1 more reply

No Scottish Republic Ever ®
@Smur_AOK
·
11h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
and
@benthebass6
Sure he did. We have your word for it, so it must be right.

Gary Phillips
@gazzzp
·
17h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
I think you will see that the EU is bullying US
1 more reply

Helen Robertshaw 

@HelenRobertshaw
·
19h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
Yes, Harold Wilson was a wise Yorkshireman. We should listen to the French and our other European partners. Once outside the EU, the US will eat us alive!
1 more reply

Illusion of Democracy #BrexitOpportunities
@votes_17
·
2h
Replying to
@williamnhutton
Nonsense.
1 more reply


----------



## kimthecat

Ive said this before , I wish there hadn't been a referendum in the first place. I hate the divides it has caused . The result was too narrow , and if there is another type of referendum , Im not voting .


----------



## KittenKong

Problem indeed. This person is either very wealthy where increased costs through rationing wouldn't affect him, or damn right insane.

At least he's honest that Brexit could result in medical supply shortages and deaths....


----------



## KittenKong

People still trust these bare faced liars.





























https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/settled...-rejected-chef/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## KittenKong

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...XXxEwkYcUMnhFkKtfsj4Olh0nc-3298QuIyTjM8lZzSYA


----------



## cheekyscrip

Basically it will be the rich boys playground.

Just as predicted.

Total shame on non ERG Tories and Labour leader that they didn’t do what they should and let it happen.

Corbyn sitting on the fence actually obstructing any decisive move for PV or second referendum.

At least JRM and BoJo were very honest what they want - power for themselves and their ilk.

Why then Corbyn, man supported by unions, was not fighting it?


What will happen to Gibraltar no one knows.

Frontier might close soon.


----------



## Guest

My partner has had a go at me for getting involved in this thread as we agreed not to get involved in anything to do with the UK's decision to leave the European Union. So I am affraid I am no longer getting involved in anything relating to Brexit or anything to do with the UK Parliament or the UK Prime Minister as I don't want to fall out with my partner. Hopefully I will see you around on pet related subjects?


----------



## KittenKong

I make no apologies for posting this.

Think about this, regardless of how you voted, or what your stance is now.

It goes way beyond just the UK leaving the EU.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> My partner has had a go at me for getting involved in this thread as we agreed not to get involved in anything to do with the UK's decision to leave the European Union. So I am affraid I am no longer getting involved in anything relating to Brexit or anything to do with the UK Parliament or the UK Prime Minister as I don't want to fall out with my partner. Hopefully I will see you around on pet related subjects?


Thats a shame. Its been interesting hearing views from someone living in another country.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 414894
> I make no apologies for posting this.
> 
> Think about this, regardless of how you voted, or what your stance is now.
> 
> It goes way beyond just the UK leaving the EU.


I'm not sure where "whoever" got the date of 1629 from.

Perhaps you should should check the facts before posting instead of simply accepting everything as the absolute truth.

Charles 1st reigned until his execution in 1649.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Hopefully I will see you around on pet related subjects?


 I hope so.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 414357
> 
> 
> Problem indeed. This person is either very wealthy where increased costs through rationing wouldn't affect him, or damn right insane.
> 
> At least he's honest that Brexit could result in medical supply shortages and deaths....


Pretty sure that person is a wind up merchant.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Pretty sure that person is a wind up merchant.


Have you looked at George Edwards @ Fun Brexit?

Methinks KK has been taken for a ride.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Pretty sure that person is a wind up merchant.


Looks genuine to me.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Looks genuine to me.
> View attachment 415045


https://twitter.com/funbrexit?lang=ar


٠ ردّ٠ إعادة تغريد٣ إعجاب


*George Edwards*‏ @FunBrexit ٣ سقبل 3 ساعات
Brexit will again bring the truth, drain the swamp & resume our Christian crusade. Fake news was spread that our Empire was developed through invasion, it wasn't. It was a Christian mission first & and a philanthropist modernisation of their countries after. God save the Queen.

You thnk so???????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> https://twitter.com/funbrexit?lang=ar
> 
> 
> ٠ ردّ٠ إعادة تغريد٣ إعجاب
> 
> 
> *George Edwards*‏ @FunBrexit ٣ سقبل 3 ساعات
> Brexit will again bring the truth, drain the swamp & resume our Christian crusade. Fake news was spread that our Empire was developed through invasion, it wasn't. It was a Christian mission first & and a philanthropist modernisation of their countries after. God save the Queen.
> You thnk so???????????????????????????????????????????


Whether this particular account is real or not I have no idea (I don't DO Twitter), but shocking as it may be, there really _are _people out there who genuinely think like that. I know some!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Looks genuine to me.
> View attachment 415045


Genuine and someone actually believing what they are saying are two completely different things.

Read their posts. They are a wind up. That may be intentional. But they are still a wind up.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> https://twitter.com/funbrexit?lang=ar
> 
> 
> ٠ ردّ٠ إعادة تغريد٣ إعجاب
> 
> 
> *George Edwards*‏ @FunBrexit ٣ سقبل 3 ساعات
> Brexit will again bring the truth, drain the swamp & resume our Christian crusade. Fake news was spread that our Empire was developed through invasion, it wasn't. It was a Christian mission first & and a philanthropist modernisation of their countries after. God save the Queen.
> You thnk so???????????????????????????????????????????


It was the odd 'climate change is a hoax' thrown in just to annoy another few people that clinched it for me.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Genuine and someone actually believing what they are saying are two completely different things.
> 
> Read their posts. They are a wind up. That may be intentional. But they are still a wind up.


I feel dirty now (not a fan of twitter)!

Have to say, the more I read, the more I feel that if they are a wind up, they're not a very good one. There's not enough sarcasm, irony or satire to mark them convincingly as a parody - and most parody accounts are pretty open about being a parody, too, as the whole point is to have a laugh at people (of both viewpoints) who fall for it and see how far you can push them.

Might be wrong, of course, but much of what I'm seeing so far is pretty standard "Brexit whatever the cost" fare.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> It was the odd 'climate change is a hoax' thrown in just to annoy another few people that clinched it for me.


Love this one!


*George Edwards*‏ @FunBrexit ٢٣ سقبل 23 ساعة

I am the master of all things brexit. My words are the truth. The Queen is our voice of reason as directed by her divine right to govern us. God is a Brexiteer. Renounce all remainer ways and join us Brexiteers in a heavenly future for our great nation. God bless the Queen.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> I feel dirty now (not a fan of twitter)!
> 
> Have to say, the more I read, the more I feel that if they are a wind up, they're not a very good one. There's not enough sarcasm, irony or satire to mark them convincingly as a parody - and most parody accounts are pretty open about being a parody, too, as the whole point is to have a laugh at people (of both viewpoints) who fall for it and see how far you can push them.
> 
> Might be wrong, of course, but much of what I'm seeing so far is pretty standard "Brexit whatever the cost" fare.


I hate Twitter too, but thought I'd take a look when it was quoted.

I didn't say it's a parody, it's nowhere near clever enough for that. But this person is going out of their way to wind up the job, which I why I don't think it's totally for real. If that means anything.....


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> I didn't say it's a parody, it's nowhere near clever enough for that. But this person is going out of their way to wind up the job, which I why I don't think it's totally for real. If that means anything.....


True, but I'm cynical enough to entertain the notion that they both believe it AND are prepared to indulge in WUMmery too...


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> if they are a wind up, they're not a very good one.


You don't have to be very good at wind up on Twitter or FB


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Utter bellends reminded that being a Nazi not actually patriotic*
6th September 2017









*MORONS have been reminded that Britain actually fought Nazis during the war.*

As the neo-Nazi movement grows in popularity among 'patriotic' British bellends, they have been reminded that Britain has historically always been against the Nazis.

93-year-old Roy Hobbs said: "I remember World War Two quite well because I actually fought in it, and I am absolutely certain that the people firing bullets at us were Nazis.

"So I'm not sure where all this stuff about neo-Nazis 'loving Britain' comes from. The Nazis definitely didn't seem to like Britain very much because they put quite a lot of effort into dropping bombs on it."

Neo-Nazi Wayne Hayes said: "Word War Two was fake news, they just used Photoshop to make it look like the Nazis were bad.

"Churchill was a proud Nazi and so are those bulldogs that we like - the massive squat ones that can't breathe properly. We are into them because they are genetically perfect."


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Genuine and someone actually believing what they are saying are two completely different things.
> 
> Read their posts. They are a wind up. That may be intentional. But they are still a wind up.


Whether you dismiss threads like this as a windup or not, they are many like this just as they are on FB. Are you seriously dismissing them all as wind ups? I was targeted myself by one yesterday who is now blocked as I got the usual aggressive, "Your side lost so suck it up" kind of unsolicited posting. I asked, rather than adopt an agressive tone, perhaps he could sell Brexit to me and how I'd benefit from it.

Surprise surprise, he said, "He didn't need to" which I suppose made a change from the usual soundbites and slogans.....

Pathetic.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Whether you dismiss threads like this as a windup or not, they are many like this just as they are on FB. Are you seriously dismissing them all as wind ups? I was targeted myself by one yesterday who is now blocked as I got the usual aggressive, "Your side lost so suck it up" kind of unsolicited posting. I asked, rather than adopt an agressive tone, perhaps he could sell Brexit to me and how I'd benefit from it.
> 
> Surprise surprise, he said, "He didn't need to" which I suppose made a change from the usual soundbites and slogans.....
> 
> Pathetic.


If you consider them pathetic, then why go to all the effort of posting them on this thread, and inflicting them on us? 

IMO by doing so suggests that you're taking them seriously


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> If you consider them pathetic, then why go to all the effort of posting them on this thread, and inflecting them on us?
> 
> IMO by doing so suggests that you're taking them seriously


Oh, poor inflected darlings. 

This is why there is a magic button to stop it unless, of course, you are a glutton for punishment.

No one is still forced to look at this thread or any posts there...

You can pick and mix ...
Who was "us" by the way?
Was it the Royal Us ?

Because of late I have quite anti monarchy sentiments!

Maybe like our lovely Big Brother we will have a bad hairdo president now?

:Nailbiting


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, poor inflected darlings.
> 
> This is why there is a magic button to stop it unless, of course, you are a glutton for punishment.
> 
> No one is still forced to look at this thread or any posts there...
> 
> You can pick and mix ...
> Who was "us" by the way?
> Was it the Royal Us ?
> 
> Because of late I have quite anti monarchy sentiments!
> 
> Maybe like our lovely Big Brother we will have a bad hairdo president now?
> 
> :Nailbiting


What on earth are you warbling on about?????


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> What on earth are you warbling on about?????


Let me know if you find out? Going on about the ''bad hair-do President'' reminded me of a certain former US poster whose posts I avoided like the plague.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> What on earth are you warbling on about?????


BoJo The [email protected]


----------



## Elles

Bojo and Trump are doing a great job. They’re both getting pretty much what they wanted and what they promised that got them both elected. 

You might not agree with either of them, but that surely can’t be denied? 

I don’t want a hole in my garden, but Elles did and she’s done an excellent job digging it and hiding her tripe.


----------



## kimthecat

Unbelievable !


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> Unbelievable !


Terry Christian always was the biggest twathead and laughably named person out there
he needs to remember
hes no longer 'a lad' 
and
just one year off of being classed as an oap himself
odious man


----------



## DogLover1981

Elles said:


> They're both getting pretty much what they wanted and what they promised that got them both elected.


Except Trump still largely doesn't have his wall.


----------



## Magyarmum

DogLover1981 said:


> Except Trump still largely doesn't have his wall.


And Mexico hasn't paid for it either which was one of his election promises


----------



## Elles

I did say “pretty much”.

That’s like when someone says “some people”, or “most” and other people reply as though they said “all”.


----------



## DogLover1981

DogLover1981 said:


> Except Trump still largely doesn't have his wall.


Thinking about it, Donald Trump didn't really promise much of anything concrete during his campaign. Most of the stuff during his campaign was rhetoric, dog whistles and him being an obnoxious blowhard. Even the wall was somewhat of a dog whistle.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Bojo and Trump are doing a great job. They're both getting pretty much what they wanted and what they promised that got them both elected.
> 
> You might not agree with either of them, but that surely can't be denied?
> 
> I don't want a hole in my garden, but Elles did and she's done an excellent job digging it and hiding her tripe.


USA considering economy is not too bad, and as long as people have jobs etc... who cares what he says?

I am sure it will be the same after Brexit....

USA will get a great deal!

BoJo will do very good job. For USA.

After all he came highly recommended. By Trump.

So you not alone in your opinion :Smuggrin


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Unbelievable !


People knew what they were voting for after all. That must include medical supply shortages, not that this was warned of in 2016.

I'm surprised some don't argue vaccinations are Health and Safety like measures. Never had them in the good old days after all. Tough us Brits are aren't we.

I agree the last tweet went a bit far though.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> People knew what they were voting for after all. That must include medical supply shortages, not that this was warned of in 2016.
> 
> I'm surprised some don't argue vaccinations are Health and Safety like measures*. Never had them in the good old days after all. Tough us Brits are aren't we.*
> 
> I agree the last tweet went a bit far though.


Wrong again! You really should check your facts!

https://peopleshistorynhs.org/encyclopaedia/childhood-vaccination-and-the-nhs/

"The outbreak of the Second World War provided the necessary impetus to introduce diphtheria vaccination with central government allocating funds to local authorities to meet the costs of introducing the programme. By the end of 1942, a third of all children under 15 years of age in England and Wales, and a half of all in Scotland had been protected against diphtheria"


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Wrong again! You really should check your facts!
> 
> https://peopleshistorynhs.org/encyclopaedia/childhood-vaccination-and-the-nhs/
> 
> "The outbreak of the Second World War provided the necessary impetus to introduce diphtheria vaccination with central government allocating funds to local authorities to meet the costs of introducing the programme. By the end of 1942, a third of all children under 15 years of age in England and Wales, and a half of all in Scotland had been protected against diphtheria"


Yes, I am well aware of that.

I was talking about the flu jab actually.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> People knew what they were voting for after all. That must include medical supply shortages, not that this was warned of in 2016.
> 
> I'm surprised some don't argue vaccinations are Health and Safety like measures. Never had them in the good old days after all. Tough us Brits are aren't we.
> 
> I agree the last tweet went a bit far though.


A "bit far "is an understatement. You seem happy to mock older people from the good old days whenever that was.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I am well aware of that.
> 
> I was talking about the flu jab actually.


Then why didn't you make that clear in your post?

Not all of us are mind readers you know!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Unbelievable !


Terry Christian truly is a [email protected]


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> A "bit far "is an understatement. You seem happy to mock older people from the good old days whenever that was.


That's unfair as I've personally never been ageist as regards the Brexit vote. I know plenty of people in their twenties who were taken in by the lies, likewise older people who voted Remain.

My comment was aimed at those who do believe Brexit will take the country back to the good old days, not necessarily older people. People my age and younger hark on about the wartime spirit despite not being alive then.

If my comments did come over as ageist to others, it was not my intention and will apologise unreservedly.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> Terry Christian truly is a [email protected]


He started off with a relatively sensible question and then just got stupid, before being held up an icon of all that's wrong with Remain which simply created more division on Twitter between leave and remain to create a them and us state. I've said it elsewhere on PF, for many it's is democracy. He was crap on The Word too.


----------



## kimthecat

I guess this is OT but I didnt know where else to put it without starting a new thread.

I find it alarming.

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.c...-share-information-about-protesters-with-dwp/

*Greater Manchester Police (GMP) has admitted that it has a written agreement to share information about disabled people and other activists who take part in protests with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).*

Disabled activists have expressed alarm at the confirmation, which came despite previous denials by the force and DWP that any such agreement existed.

They said the existence of the agreement was a clear blow to the right to protest of disabled people who claim benefits.

Greater Manchester Coalition of Disabled People (GMCDP) said it was "extremely concerned" that its local police force was "spying on disabled protesters and passing on their details onto the DWP".

GMCDP said the agreement was "yet another example of the punitive and unwarranted targeting of disabled people".

Concerns about links between DWP and police forces such as GMP - and the impact on disabled people's right to protest - first emerged last December after Disability News Service (DNS) reported that forces had been targeting disabled protesters taking part in peaceful anti-fracking protests across England.

Lancashire police then admitted in December that it had shared both information and video footage of disabled anti-fracking protesters with DWP, in an apparent attempt to have their disability benefits removed.

Greater Manchester Police then told DNS that it had passed DWP information about protesters taking part in anti-fracking protests at Barton Moss, Salford, which took place in 2013 and 2014, and also confirmed that it had shared information with DWP from protests not connected with fracking.

This raised concerns that it might have passed information to DWP about disabled people who protested in Manchester about the government's austerity-related social security reforms, particularly during high-profile actions around the Conservative party conferences in 2015 and 2017.

GMP later claimed that it had not shared any information with DWP about disabled activists who had taken part in the 2015 and 2017 protests.


----------



## Magyarmum

Just come through from the Hungarian Government.

Hope the link works!

https://eu.kormany.hu/tartozkodas
 

Brexin
Information for British citizens and their family members
Stay
*STATE SECRETARIAT FOR POLICY DEVELOPMENT AND COORDINATION IN THE EUROPEAN UNION*

News
Speeches, publications, interviews
*BREXIN*

United Kingdom exit negotiations with the EU
Information for Hungarian citizens and their family members
Information for British citizens and their family members
Information relating to companies and business
Legal information
Agricultural information
Cooperation between Hungary and the United Kingdom
link Collection
Brexit in English
*Stay*
Hungary currently operates, under the provisions of Act I of 2007 on the Entry and Stay of Persons with the Right of Free Movement and Residence, a registration system for EU citizens, including British citizens, staying there: obtain a registration certificate and . Third country family members of British nationals are currently issued residence cards or, after five years, a permanent residence card. British citizens and their family members are already establishing their permanent residence with the first Hungarian Alien Police Certificate and have an official certificate of residence.
Detailed information on the procedure can be found at the following link on the website of the National Directorate of Aliens (www.bevandorlas.hu ): EEA nationals and family members who are third-country nationals .

The withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union will bring about a change in the rules governing the right of residence of British nationals and their third country family members residing in Hungary. The intention of the Hungarian Government is to apply favorable treatment based on reciprocity.

The registration of British citizens and their family members, as well as the replacement of their residence card, will be an essential prerequisite for their future status and will therefore be crucial.

*Exit order*

The draft Exit Agreement foresees a transitional period until 31 December 2020, during which citizens' rights of residence will not be substantially affected. During this period, EU Community law and the national legislation in force based thereon will prevail. During the transitional period, registration certificates and residence cards will continue to be issued to those arriving in Hungary. British citizens and their family members who come to Hungary until 31 December 2020 may retain their rights acquired through EU membership after 1 January 2021.

*Unscheduled exit*

Even in the case of an unescorted exit, the Government will endeavor to allow persons enjoying the right of free movement and residence prior to the exit to continue their stay in Hungary under a preferential regime.

On March 26, 2019, Act XV of 2019 on the amendment of certain laws in the event of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union in the event of an unlawful departure was published. law. This Act provides for the possibility of obtaining a preferential residence status for British citizens and their family members residing in Hungary upon departure. The provisions of this Act may be applied after the date of withdrawal. The text of the law is available at https://magyarkozlony.hu/documents/d428b2f52d7ada64faf7a32c2144dc875c5c92b1/.

The previous registration obligation remains valid until you leave.

By law, British citizens and their family members residing in Hungary at the time of their departure will be entitled to a national residence permit after three years' prior residence, without examination of the conditions of residence, subsistence and health insurance. The relevant application may be submitted no later than three years after the date of withdrawal. Until the residence period of three years is reached, the previously issued document (registration certificate / residence card / permanent residence card) shall remain valid for the persons concerned.
In addition, they may, subject to certain conditions, obtain a national residence permit for three years after the date of departure of the additional family members of the resident British national with whom the family had a relationship prior to leaving.

Those who have been legally residing in Hungary for five years will be able to obtain, under certain conditions, a long-term residence permit (EC residence permit).

_• Newcomers_

Newly arrived British nationals and their family members upon leaving, or, if agreed upon, during the transitional period, will be subject to the general rules for third-country nationals. For short-term stays (not exceeding 90 days in any 180-day period), the European Commission has adopted a proposal for a regulation exempting British nationals from the visa requirement, provided EU citizens are also exempted from the UK visa requirement. Conditions for staying in Hungary for more than 90 days in Hungary pursuant to Act II of 2007 on the conditions of entry and residence of third-country nationals. is determined by law, based on the purpose of the stay.www.bevandorlas.hu page


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I guess this is OT but I didnt know where else to put it without starting a new thread.
> 
> I find it alarming.
> 
> https://www.disabilitynewsservice.c...-share-information-about-protesters-with-dwp/
> 
> *Greater Manchester Police (GMP) has admitted that it has a written agreement to share information about disabled people and other activists who take part in protests with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).*
> 
> Disabled activists have expressed alarm at the confirmation, which came despite previous denials by the force and DWP that any such agreement existed.
> 
> They said the existence of the agreement was a clear blow to the right to protest of disabled people who claim benefits.
> 
> Greater Manchester Coalition of Disabled People (GMCDP) said it was "extremely concerned" that its local police force was "spying on disabled protesters and passing on their details onto the DWP".
> 
> GMCDP said the agreement was "yet another example of the punitive and unwarranted targeting of disabled people".
> 
> Concerns about links between DWP and police forces such as GMP - and the impact on disabled people's right to protest - first emerged last December after Disability News Service (DNS) reported that forces had been targeting disabled protesters taking part in peaceful anti-fracking protests across England.
> 
> Lancashire police then admitted in December that it had shared both information and video footage of disabled anti-fracking protesters with DWP, in an apparent attempt to have their disability benefits removed.
> 
> Greater Manchester Police then told DNS that it had passed DWP information about protesters taking part in anti-fracking protests at Barton Moss, Salford, which took place in 2013 and 2014, and also confirmed that it had shared information with DWP from protests not connected with fracking.
> 
> This raised concerns that it might have passed information to DWP about disabled people who protested in Manchester about the government's austerity-related social security reforms, particularly during high-profile actions around the Conservative party conferences in 2015 and 2017.
> 
> GMP later claimed that it had not shared any information with DWP about disabled activists who had taken part in the 2015 and 2017 protests.


I guess its relevance is, I can see more of this sort of thing with the Brexit enabled right wing power grab.

What next? "If you are fit to protest, you are fit for work"?

That's threatening people not to protest, keep quiet in other words.

Disgusting.


----------



## KittenKong

On the way back from a PV event in Newcastle, with speakers including Andrew Adnois, Phil Wilson and Anna Soubry. They were brilliant.


----------



## KittenKong

I know many here still think Brexit is a good idea. Well, this is what the Government are now saying.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...pets-gb-stickers-brexit-advice-issued-britons

This is very relevant to us I think.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I know many here still think Brexit is a good idea. Well, this is what the Government are now saying.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...pets-gb-stickers-brexit-advice-issued-britons
> 
> This is very relevant to us I think.
> View attachment 415259


That might be a death sentence for my both Scrip and Garfield. Only their vet in Spain seems to be able to find ways of making them better. They now need regular visits and constant medication and tests.

Vets in Gibraltar are clueless and prices extortionate.

Last emergency in Gibraltar 300 pounds. They still had no idea what was wrong!!!
Next emergency I took Scrip to Spain. Paid 5 euros. For four injections, scan and prescription.


----------



## KittenKong

The pro Brexit mob on social media really are stirring things up. You'd think they were provoking civil war or something.

This is shocking.


----------



## kimthecat

This made me laugh . One of my favourite programmes.

Brian Spancock
@BrianSpanner1
·
Mar 3
Homes Under The Hammer And Sickle.


----------



## KittenKong

Jon Danzig:


READY FOR MORE LIES... FUNDED BY YOU
Tonight the government’s £100m* advertising campaign to promote Brexit, masterminded by Dominic Cummings, kicked off. It’s called ‘Get Ready’.
It will be the biggest ever advertising campaign, 
Where is the money coming from? You. All of us. We are funding it.
Brexiters complained that David Cameron’s government spent £9m of public money to explain the case for remaining in the EU. 
But by comparison, Cummings budget is off the scale. Up to £100m* of public money to explain to the nation why Brexit is such a good idea and it will be oh, so wonderful. 
(*There are reports claiming the amount is actually around £140m... no doubt any figure will do for the lot now running the government). 
Tonight, The Guardian reported:
‘The billboards have been unveiled, the branded mugs have been ordered and the adverts will soon start following you around the internet after the government launched what it claimed to be the largest ever public information campaign in an effort to prepare the British public for leaving the EU.
‘The Get Ready for Brexit campaign went live on Sunday, stating that the UK would be leaving the EU on 31 October and urging the public to visit a new website to check what they needed to do to prepare for a no-deal exit.’
The newspaper added that the Get Ready campaign is likely to incorporate television, radio, newspaper and online adverts. Roadshows are expected to take place across the country, and online video tutorials are promised.
According to the Times, a substantial order has been placed for branded mugs and T-shirts and there were claims that the government briefly considered reusing the Vote Leave slogan “take back control” on the official campaign.
And what has the Remain movement got to offer as a counter-attack? 
So far, as far as I know, nothing. There has been no effective national pro-Remain awareness campaign. Ever. 
I am not aware of any new Remain campaign being launched to counter the resurgence, using public money, of the Vote Leave campaign (but if someone has new information on this, please do share).
Of course, we should have been spending the past three years (actually, the past 30 years) promoting and explaining the positive benefits of EU membership, and seeing off the lies of the Vote Leave campaign, that won it for them in the referendum.
Now Vote Leave is the government. They are in charge. They have access to all the state’s money, all the power, all the authority. 
Those who say this isn’t a coup are not paying attention. This is a remarkable, clever, sinister coup. 
The winners write history. Now, the winners are also in charge of the facts. Their facts.
Where is our counter attack? That’s what we earnestly and rapidly need to consider. 
• Link to Guardian article: ‘Get Ready for Brexit’: government launches information blitz theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/01/get-ready-for-brexit-government-launches-information-blitz
• My related video: ‘Remain needs a new campaign’ facebook.com/JonDanzigWrites/videos/738478543253557/


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> What next? "If you are fit to protest, you are fit for work"?


 It sounds like that: if you are protesting, you are not ''actively seeking work'' on that day? Is that it?
I know it's not exactly the same, but it very much reminds me of the claimants who are interrogated by DWP investigators about their means/income because they could not resist sharing with their 986 FB ''friends'' that they had a wedding that cost £40k followed by a month's honeymoon is the Dominican Republic. Or they are gormless enough to post photos of themselves scaling the North Face of the Eiger while merrily claiming Disability Allowance. It's the same sort of attitude, tho' why you cannot join a protest for a few hours if you are disabled is very baffling. It seems rather harsh to say the least.


----------



## Magyarmum

The PM has just made a statement outside No 10.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...provoke-early-election-claims-gauke-live-news

*Boris Johnson: there are no circumstances in which I will delay Brexit - live news*

4m ago18:24

*Full text of Johnson's statement*
Here is the full text of Boris Johnson's statement.

Five weeks ago I spoke to you from these steps and said that this government was not going to hang around and that we would not wait until brexit day - October 31 - to deliver on the priorities of the British people.

And so I am proud to say that on Wednesday Chancellor Sajid Javid is going to set out the most ambitious spending round for more than a decade.

I said I wanted to make your streets safer - and that is why we are recruiting another 20,000 police officers.

I said I wanted to improve your hospital and reduce the waiting times at your GP.

And so we are doing 20 new hospital upgrades in addition to the extra £34 billion going into the NHS.

And I said I wanted every child in this country to have a superb education and that's why I announced last week that we are levelling up funding across the country and spending much more next year in both primary and secondary schools.

And it is to push forward this agenda on these and many other fronts that we need a Queen's speech in October.

While leaving due time to debate Brexit and other matters.

And as we come to that Brexit deadline I am encouraged by the progress we are making.

In the last few weeks the chances of a deal have been rising, I believe, for three reasons. They can see that we want a deal.

They can see that we have a clear vision for our future relationship with the EU - something that has perhaps not always been the case.

And they can see that we are utterly determined to strengthen our position by getting ready to come out regardless, come what may.

But if there is one thing that can hold us back in these talks it is the sense in Brussels that MPs may find some way to cancel the referendum.

Or that tomorrow MPs will vote - with Jeremy Corbyn - for yet another pointless delay. I don't think they will. I hope that they won't.

But if they do they will plainly chop the legs out from under the UK position and make any further negotiation absolutely impossible

And so I say, to show our friends in Brussels that we are united in our purpose, MPs should vote with the government against Corbyn's pointless delay.

I want everybody to know - there are no circumstances in which I will ask Brussels to delay. We are leaving on 31 October, no ifs or buts.

We will not accept any attempt to go back on our promises or scrub that referendum.

Armed and fortified with that conviction I believe we will get a deal at that crucial summit in October

A deal that parliament will certainly be able to scrutinise.

And in the meantime let our negotiators get on with their work Without that sword of Damocles over their necks .

And without an election, which I don't want and you don't want.

Let us get on with the people's agenda - fighting crime, improving the NHS, boosting schools, cutting the cost of living, and unlocking talent and opportunity across the entire United Kingdom.

With infrastructure education and technology It is a massive agenda. Let's come together and get it done - and let's get Brexit done by October 31.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Does he really think the British people believe his lies. He promises aren't worth the paper they are written.


----------



## mrs phas

There's been two FIRs presented, so far, by the poverty alliance, to find out just how a no deal brexit will affect those on
UC, ESA, low incomes and pensioners on pension allowance
Both have been refused as
Not in the public interest
And he expects us to believe anything he says

https://welfareweekly.com/dwp-urged-to-publish-secret-brexit-impact-analysis/


----------



## Jonescat

The Scottish Lord Advocate is requesting that he be allowed to join both the court cases against prorogation to argue that suspending parliament is an abuse of power.
But Johnson has a puppy, so there can't be anything to worry about.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Meanwhile....

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-lbc-video/

In the full interview Jacob Rees-Mogg admits can't have another referendum now that people know more about Brexit, because we'd vote to stop it.

He also says this to a doctor who contributed to a report about mitigating the effects of a no-deal Brexit: "I think this is the worst excess of Project Fear and I'm surprised that a doctor in your position would be fearmongering this way on public radio."

But Dr Nicholl cut in, and said: "Can I remind you I wrote the plans for mitigation?"

Mr Rees-Mogg instantly hit back, and said: "Mitigation. Well you didn't write very good plans if you hadn't worked out how to mitigate, had you?

"It's fortunate they are being written by other people now who are serious about mitigating rather than Remoaners."

_*But the doctor responded by pointing to reports that the "royal colleges who are involved in contact with the department of health have not yet been approached to update these documents".*_


----------



## Elles

Oh dear, Jacob Rees-Mogg is being totally misinterpreted, with his words taken out of context. He didn’t say we shouldn’t have a second referendum, because remain would win and we’d vote to stop brexit, he said a second referendum would overturn the first one and they haven’t delivered on that one yet. He went on to say what if remain did win, but by a smaller majority, which vote would stand then, or would we have to have another? 

He then went on to say that polls show that leave would win again, so it’s pointless. I think a better word and what he meant was overwrite, not overturn. Personally I think it’s still too close to call.

However, Rees-Mogg wasn’t saying that we shouldn’t have a second referendum because we’d vote to stop brexit. The full interview is on YouTube.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Oh dear, Jacob Rees-Mogg is being totally misinterpreted, with his words taken out of context. He didn't say we shouldn't have a second referendum, because remain would win and we'd vote to stop brexit, he said a second referendum would overturn the first one and they haven't delivered on that one yet


Only problem with that logic is he's in effect saying you can't have a confirmation referendum on whether or not the UK still wants Brexit until after Brexit has been delivered, by which point having that referendum would be rather pointless...


----------



## Elles

He’s right though. If we have a referendum and the government promise to deliver on it, that’s what they should do. Otherwise what’s the point?

There would have been absolutely no point in holding a referendum in the first place, if they were just going to wait a few years, not deliver on it and see if they can change our mind. Just let them do what they want and stop bothering us with stupid referendums that cost money, divide the public and aren’t going to mean anything.

If the first referendum meant jack, why wouldn’t a second one?

They shouldn’t be asking the public if they still want brexit, we should have already done it. The reason we haven’t has nothing to do whether we still want it or not, it’s because they didn’t want it in the first place, didn’t expect the result and have been taking us for a ride ever since.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Does he really think the British people believe his lies. He promises aren't worth the paper they are written.


Remarkably, many still do.



Jesthar said:


> Only problem with that logic is he's in effect saying you can't have a confirmation referendum on whether or not the UK still wants Brexit until after Brexit has been delivered, by which point having that referendum would be rather pointless...


Which is why they are determined to deliver a "Do or die Brexit". Should that happen the campaign for a PV will be history and a new "Re-join" campaign will immediately start.

Then, even if the UK lies in ruins with an extreme right wing government, I doubt very much the EU would allow the UK to Re-join seeing the UK exit was entirely voluntary. Having made contingency plans for a no-deal would be very disruptive too for the UK to suddenly re-join.

Worth bearing in mind it took the UK over 20 years to join in the first place.

The best we can hope for, for the short term at least, is an EEA like arrangement with Customs Union. Not only would that restore FoM it would solve the Irish, (and possibly Scottish by then), hard border problems.


----------



## Calvine

Jonescat said:


> so there can't be anything to worry about.


 Unless your name is Larry! :Cat


----------



## Snoringbear

Haha https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49573555


----------



## MilleD

Snoringbear said:


> Haha https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49573555


Will the EU allow a further delay though?


----------



## KittenKong

Well, it's deja vu all over again. Reminds me of Theresa 'Strong and Stable' May's early days of, "Brexit means Brexit" and "No deal is better than a bad deal".

So, what next? A snap GE? I was convinced Johnson/Cummings would win a majority, now I'm not so sure. The prorougation of parliament has angered many leave voters too.

So, a coalition with Farage? That depends on two things: the existing government would have to support a no deal crash out to the exclusion of other options and secondly, depends whether the Farage party manage to win any seats.

Surely, the logical options is for a PV with the options being Leave with no deal, Leave with May's deal or Revoke Article 50.


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> Will the EU allow a further delay though?


I would expect so. They're probably very relieved that their friends in parliament are trying to stop brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Will the EU allow a further delay though?


That's what they are banking on. Unless the plan is to put it back to the people as mentioned above they'd have every right to refuse and effectively throw the UK out of the union.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415509
> View attachment 415510


*Or if they type in Ian Duncan Smith, there will be a video of him picking his nose and eating it. Vile man. :Vomit*


----------



## Jackie C

I sometimes do have too much times on my hands and I get mischevious.


----------



## Jackie C

I did ask Boris Johnson on twitter this morning how he felt about the value of the pound increasing after his defeat in the HOC last night.


----------



## Jackie C

Snoringbear said:


> Haha https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49573555


Twas great viewing!!


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting summation of all that's happened over the past 24, or should it be 12 hours from France 24

https://www.france24.com/en/20190903-british-mps-defeat-boris-johnson-brexit-election-looms

*British MPs defeat Boris Johnson on Brexit, election looms*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting summation of all that's happened over the past 24, or should it be 12 hours from France 24
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/20190903-british-mps-defeat-boris-johnson-brexit-election-looms
> 
> *British MPs defeat Boris Johnson on Brexit, election looms*


Its hard to keep up with it all , my heads spinning faster than that girl's from The Exocist.

A bit OT but I caught a bit of Jeremy Vine this morning. They showed a film clip from the news . It was filming Bercow in his chair , some Tories Mps sitting and some standing. For some reason a male MP went to stand up , he was half way uo and a woman with blond hair was standing near him , she leant over and shoved him back in his chair quite forcibly. I was shocked and really , if that had been the other way round, man pushes woman , there would have been a huge outcry ,


----------



## kimthecat

Does this man have a point?

Patrick
@pattygilroy
Corbyn: "what the conservatives are doing is totally undemocratic and we can not stand for it!"
Boris: "ok lets have #GeneralElection2019 and see what the public want" 
Corbyn: "no"


----------



## JANICE199

kimthecat said:


> Does this man have a point?
> 
> Patrick
> @pattygilroy
> Corbyn: "what the conservatives are doing is totally undemocratic and we can not stand for it!"
> Boris: "ok lets have #GeneralElection2019 and see what the public want"
> Corbyn: "no"


*Didn't Corbyn say he WOULD back a general election, but only if the no deal was taken off of the table?*


----------



## kirksandallchins

I think all MPs need sacking and "normal" people not career politicians brought, if anyone is daft enough to want the job

Governments and MPs have had three years to sort out Brexit, if they had worked together from day one we wouldn't be in this mess now.

It just shows referendums are a waste of time and money, MPs will ignore them if they don't go their way.

Watching the behaviour of MPs in Parliament and the words and actions of both sides is frightening. I did A Level History years ago, and it reminds me of Germany from the 1920s/30s and the eventual rise of a dictator


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *Didn't Corbyn say he WOULD back a general election, but only if the no deal was taken off of the table?*


As long as No Deal is put into law so if there is a election and BJ wins he can't go back on it.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Does this man have a point?
> 
> Patrick
> @pattygilroy
> Corbyn: "what the conservatives are doing is totally undemocratic and we can not stand for it!"
> Boris: "ok lets have #GeneralElection2019 and see what the public want"
> Corbyn: "no"


I'd say not really, a General Election isn't supposed to be used as a one issue resolution mechanism (and Boris basically appears to be suggesting if the Conservatives were to win the election it would be a mandate to do whatever Brexit they fancied), it's meant to let people choose whose overall policies they agree with.

If they want to know what the public wants to do about Brexit, then a vote on just that would be the logical option.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*The opium kicked in, Rees-Mogg admits*
4th September 2019









*JACOB Rees-Mogg has admitted that he only lay down on a Commons front bench because the opium had seriously hit. *

The Leader of the Commons apologised to fellow Tories for sprawling on a bench, slipping out of consciousness and vomiting into a sterling silver bucket during a crucial vote, confessing that he had packed his pipe too tightly.

He continued: "I'd taken a tincture of pharmaceutical cocaine before my speech, to give me the eloquence of Cicero, so I prepared a pipe of the poppy to calm my spirits afterwards.

"Unfortunately the sly Chinaman who brings my medicine up the Thames by junk failed to warn me of its unusual strength, and I found myself quite overcome.

"As a gentleman does I reclined and allowed the terrible visions - snakes, *********, a Conservative MP crossing the floor entirely because of me - to writhe and twist before my repose.

"I am now perfectly recovered. Tell me, how did last night's vote transpire? I trust my dark imagining of a loss by 27 votes was naught but an opium dream?"


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum I think he was tired as it was past his bedtime . His nanny should have put him to bed earlier


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum I think he was tired as it was past his bedtime . His nanny should have put him to bed earlier


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum :Hilarious I hate his policies but he's rather cute and I want to pat him on the head .


----------



## lullabydream

kimthecat said:


> @Magyarmum :Hilarious I hate his policies but he's rather cute and I want to pat him on the head .


You should have said.. Am sure we could have had a whip round to get you an eye test!


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> As long as No Deal is put into law so if there is a election and BJ wins he can't go back on it.


It was already law that we leave without a deal if they can't agree one. The politicians signed and agreed it. So as they aren't taking any notice, but going to change it, why wouldn't he just change it again?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> If they want to know what the public wants to do about Brexit, then a vote on just that would be the logical option.


They already did and they haven't done what they said they'd do the first time. Why would they do what the public said the second time?

There are already MPs admitting that they'll continue to fight against brexit, even if theres a second leave vote. It would be another pointless exercise when they don't do what we say anyway.

I don't think they should drag us into it again.


----------



## Guest

I am back on here to give my opinion  Let's put it this way my partner has to understand he won't always get his way.

Right back to this thread.
People seem to forget that the UK had an overall trade deficit of -£64 billion with the EU in 2018. A surplus of £29 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£93 billion on trade in goods. TheUK had a trade surplus of £44 billion with non-EU countries.

So I guess the European Union owe the UK a refund


----------



## Guest

It seems to go over peoples heads or through one ear and out the other that the UK will still have to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union once it leaves the European Union. What is being argued over at the moment is the initial divorce from the European Union nothing else.


----------



## Magyarmum

First vote in .....

329 Ayes 309 Nays


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> First vote in .....
> 
> 329 Ayes 309 Nays


Lost track . What is this vote for ?


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Lost track . What is this vote for ?


It's the first of I think, 3 votes to block a no dea lBrexit.

Another vote in around 90 minutes. Apparently after that BJ will speak.

I'm following it as best as my pea brain can on CNN TV


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Lost track . What is this vote for ?


Just seen the news , So a No deal is off the cards. Boris has lost his bargaining tool but i dont think the EU would have budged .


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> It's the first of I think, 3 votes to block a no dea lBrexit.
> 
> Another vote in around 90 minutes. Apparently after that BJ will speak.
> 
> I'm following it as best as my pea brain can on CNN TV


yes you;re right . We Posted at the same time. 
Crazy times. Im off to escape and watch Neighbours. This is doing my head in .


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> It seems to go over peoples heads or through one ear and out the other that the UK will still have to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union once it leaves the European Union. What is being argued over at the moment is the initial divorce from the European Union nothing else.


It doesn't matter how many time it's said though, people still seem to think it means an immediate stop to any and all trade with the Eu meaning we will be cut off and that a deal is the one and only and final trade deal.

There will still be trade between Europe and the U.K. regardless of deal or no deal and they'll be organising special terms the day we leave, they've probably already written them up, they've had 3 years.

I'm seeing now that we should take no deal off the table because the Eu are our trusted friends and partners. Funny how they didn't think that over the Irish backstop.


----------



## kimthecat

lullabydream said:


> You should have said.. Am sure we could have had a whip round to get you an eye test!


No Thanks  Id see myself in the mirror and see all my wrinkles and grey hair


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash*
> 
> *The opium kicked in, Rees-Mogg admits*
> 4th September 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *JACOB Rees-Mogg has admitted that he only lay down on a Commons front bench because the opium had seriously hit. *
> 
> The Leader of the Commons apologised to fellow Tories for sprawling on a bench, slipping out of consciousness and vomiting into a sterling silver bucket during a crucial vote, confessing that he had packed his pipe too tightly.
> 
> He continued: "I'd taken a tincture of pharmaceutical cocaine before my speech, to give me the eloquence of Cicero, so I prepared a pipe of the poppy to calm my spirits afterwards.
> 
> "Unfortunately the sly Chinaman who brings my medicine up the Thames by junk failed to warn me of its unusual strength, and I found myself quite overcome.
> 
> "As a gentleman does I reclined and allowed the terrible visions - snakes, *********, a Conservative MP crossing the floor entirely because of me - to writhe and twist before my repose.
> 
> "I am now perfectly recovered. Tell me, how did last night's vote transpire? I trust my dark imagining of a loss by 27 votes was naught but an opium dream?"


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Very angry Twits on Twitter. has Mrs Mays deal accidentally being resurrected.  

https://labourlist.org/2019/09/kinnock-amendment-to-benn-bill-passes-possibly-by-mistake/

Labour MP Stephen Kinnock's amendment to the Benn Bill has passed unexpectedly after no division was called because no Conservative tellers for the 'Noes' presented themselves.

Its approval means the piece of legislation designed to block an October 31st no deal Brexit will also require the Prime Minister to state that the reason for requesting an extension from the EU is to pass the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.
Under the Benn Bill, the Prime Minister would be compelled to request another Brexit delay until January 31st if he has not passed a deal or secured approval for no deal from parliament.

The 'WAB' was Theresa May's final offer to MPs, which was never put to parliament for a vote but included some of the concessions that Labour had been seeking from the government - including a workers' rights bill and parliamentary time for a vote on a confirmatory referendum.

Following the passing of the bill with Kinnock's amendment, the MP for Aberavon said "Given that the House has now approved the bill as amended, could I press the
government to publish the WAB which really does require the proper and robust discussion."

It remains unclear whether the amendment passing without a division was a mistake or the government intentionally declined to put up tellers in order to 'wreck' the whole bill.


----------



## MollySmith

We've got to the bit where someone lost the allen key


----------



## Guest

Please do not think for one minute that the bill that passed through the UK House of Commons will be successful. It might be successful on the UK side but in Brussels there is no appetite to allow another extension. The European Union has been working hard to prepare to say goodbye to the United Kingdom on the 31st October 2019 since the last extention was granted. The European Union also has a new president on the 1st November 2019 and the European Union was not expecting the United Kingdom to be in it any longer. All the United Kingdom's Parliament is doing is kicking the can into the long grass again. It rejected the deal that was on offer so it doesn't want a deal, so why should the European Union grant a further extension? The current leaders of the European Union was only going to allow a further extension if the United Kingdom had a General Election or second referendum, and the general election was rejected tonight and there is no apetite for a second referendum in the United Kingdoms Parliament. The European Union have been very clear that it would only allow an extension for the 2 reasons in the previous sentence. Why should the European Union grant the United Kingdom another extension?

The European Leaders today said that they hoped there was going to be a General Election on the 15th October 2019 but this was rejected tonight in the United Kingdom's Parliament.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Very angry Twits on Twitter. has Mrs Mays deal accidentally being resurrected.
> 
> https://labourlist.org/2019/09/kinnock-amendment-to-benn-bill-passes-possibly-by-mistake/
> 
> Labour MP Stephen Kinnock's amendment to the Benn Bill has *passed unexpectedly after no division was called because no Conservative tellers for the 'Noes' presented themselves.*
> 
> Its approval means the piece of legislation designed to block an October 31st no deal Brexit will also require the Prime Minister to state that the reason for requesting an extension from the EU is to pass the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.
> Under the Benn Bill, the Prime Minister would be compelled to request another Brexit delay until January 31st if he has not passed a deal or secured approval for no deal from parliament.
> 
> The 'WAB' was Theresa May's final offer to MPs, which was never put to parliament for a vote but included some of the concessions that Labour had been seeking from the government - including a workers' rights bill and parliamentary time for a vote on a confirmatory referendum.
> 
> Following the passing of the bill with Kinnock's amendment, the MP for Aberavon said "Given that the House has now approved the bill as amended, could I press the
> government to publish the WAB which really does require the proper and robust discussion."
> 
> It remains unclear whether the amendment passing without a division was a mistake or the government intentionally declined to put up tellers in order to 'wreck' the whole bill.


Two questions.

1. Can they organise a piss up in a brewery?
2. Is Theresa May in the same cupboard as David Cameron? If so, is there a key and can we lock in Boris too?


----------



## MollySmith

saartje said:


> Please do not think for one minute that the bill that passed through the UK House of Commons will be successful. It might be successful on the UK side but in Brussels there is no appetite to allow another extension. The European Union has been working hard to prepare to say goodbye to the United Kingdom on the 31st October 2019 since the last extention was granted. The European Union also has a new president on the 1st November 2019 and the European Union was not expecting the United Kingdom to be in it any longer. All the United Kingdom's Parliament is doing is kicking the can into the long grass again. It rejected the deal that was on offer so it doesn't want a deal, so why should the European Union grant a further extension? The current leaders of the European Union was only going to allow a further extension if the United Kingdom had a General Election or second referendum, and the general election was rejected tonight and there is no apetite for a second referendum in the United Kingdoms Parliament. The European Union have been very clear that it would only allow an extension for the 2 reasons in the previous sentence. The European Leaders today said that they hoped there was going to be a General Election on the 15th October 2019 but this was rejected tonight in the United Kingdom's Parliament.


I cannot bear the thought, as a business owner, that we have to wait. As much as I want to remain, they need to kick us out and we have to live with the consequences. This is what happens as a result of lies, poor standard in Westminster, a terrible voting system, misinformation, unqualified voters, apathy and not enough engagement with politics until it's too late.


----------



## Guest

I don't think the United Kingdoms Parliament is understanding how serious things are now. They expect the European Union to continue to allow endless extensions to the United Kingdoms departure from the European Union at the snap of the United Kingdoms Parliaments fingers.

I will be very surprised if a new extension would be granted.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> I don't think the United Kingdoms Parliament is understanding how serious things are now. They expect the European Union to continue to allow endless extensions to the United Kingdoms departure from the European Union at the snap of the United Kingdoms Parliaments fingers.
> 
> I will be very surprised if a new extension would be granted.


If they have enough popcorn..,


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious
David Robins
@Metal_God_69
#ParliamentVsThePeople #BrexitVote #Parliament

BREAKING NEWS scientists have discovered that it turns out voting in the UK is a total waste of f*****g time.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Very angry Twits on Twitter. has Mrs Mays deal accidentally being resurrected.
> 
> https://labourlist.org/2019/09/kinnock-amendment-to-benn-bill-passes-possibly-by-mistake/
> 
> Labour MP Stephen Kinnock's amendment to the Benn Bill has passed unexpectedly after no division was called because no Conservative tellers for the 'Noes' presented themselves.
> 
> Its approval means the piece of legislation designed to block an October 31st no deal Brexit will also require the Prime Minister to state that the reason for requesting an extension from the EU is to pass the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.
> Under the Benn Bill, the Prime Minister would be compelled to request another Brexit delay until January 31st if he has not passed a deal or secured approval for no deal from parliament.
> 
> The 'WAB' was Theresa May's final offer to MPs, which was never put to parliament for a vote but included some of the concessions that Labour had been seeking from the government - including a workers' rights bill and parliamentary time for a vote on a confirmatory referendum.
> 
> Following the passing of the bill with Kinnock's amendment, the MP for Aberavon said "Given that the House has now approved the bill as amended, could I press the
> government to publish the WAB which really does require the proper and robust discussion."
> 
> It remains unclear whether the amendment passing without a division was a mistake or the government intentionally declined to put up tellers in order to 'wreck' the whole bill.


That would be a complete waste of time seeing the deal was rejected three times. I doubt the ERG would pass it and I doubt Labour will too, unless the amendments are guaranteed which I can't see this government agreeing to.

There is, of course, the danger they could pass it, seeing the alternative no deal will be a lot worse, so is seen as the lesser of two evils.

But most on either side won't be happy should it happen.

The image of May grinning still turns my stomach. I'm not sorry to see the back of this vile woman, even if her replacements are no better.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Brexit. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> I don't think the United Kingdoms Parliament is understanding how serious things are now. They expect the European Union to continue to allow endless extensions to the United Kingdoms departure from the European Union at the snap of the United Kingdoms Parliaments fingers.
> 
> I will be very surprised if a new extension would be granted.


We can only hope that they no longer want us anymore but I fear the loss of a few billion will keep us in the club indefinitely


----------



## samuelsmiles3

rona said:


> We can only hope that they no longer want us anymore but I fear the loss of a few billion will keep us in the club indefinitely


They may not "want" us, but do they 'need' us?


----------



## rona

samuelsmiles3 said:


> They may not "want" us, but do they 'need' us?


My hope lie with Macron. He's as arrogant as our own MPs and may not follow the crowd


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> We can only hope that they no longer want us anymore but I fear the loss of a few billion will keep us in the club indefinitely


Do you think lub USA is any better?

Because Britain is once again little Britain no Empire across the globe.

We are part of Europe. We can't change geography. 
Scotland voted to stay a part of UK because they were threatened to be left out of EU.

Now Scotland is dragged out by English.

Good Friday Agreement will be broken if No Deal happens. But who cares about NI or if Gibraltar goes to Spain.

Poodle of America at any cost. With American most amazing state health care, education or pensions.

Anything to get out of MIFID2 and taxes...

Even though I see why getting out of MIFID2 has it's merits....

For some...


----------



## MilleD

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Brexit. :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

Looks like Boris is going to risk the no confidence vote and take us to a GE.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Looks like Boris is going to risk the no confidence vote and take us to a GE.


Can I ask how that would work? Would he have a no confidence vote against himself?

Last night Labour abstained along with the majority of the other parties. They could do that again in a no confidence vote.

The Conservatives have no majority in the UK House of Commons so are at the mercy of the other parties.

The UK House of Lords has said all stages to stop no deal will be done tomorrow so Boris could call a General Election again on Monday.

Edited

The European Union remaining countries then have to agree on allowing the 3 month extension to happen. Can I point out the new European Union President who takes office on the 1st November 2019 suggested giving the United Kingdom up to 5 years extension not long ago. The United Kingdom won't get to decide how long the extension will be if one is granted this will be down to the European Union. There is a real risk the European Union will say no to any extension as all the 27 countries have to agree to an extension and if one country says no it is no.


----------



## agenthenry69

I voted to Remain. I now think this would be the worst possible outcome now that we've spent the past 3 years embarrassing ourselves with our attempt at leaving the EU.
If we remain after all this time, we will be bullied by the rest of the EU. I am NOT an advocate for Leave, but I do believe it's become the only real option. Therefore, deal or no deal, just get the f**k on with it.


----------



## Elles

“There is an extremely high-risk option. If the government was absolutely determined to hold an early election it could, in theory, call a vote of no confidence in itself.

If it chose to do this, MPs would have to decide whether they want the current government to continue.

If such a vote passes, opposition parties would be allowed two weeks to come together to try to form an alternative government. If this happened, Mr Johnson would be expected to resign and a new prime minister could request a further Brexit delay to prevent a no-deal outcome.

But, if nothing is resolved after 14 days, a general election is automatically triggered.

However, this would be a high stakes strategy, as it completely relies on opposition parties failing to form an alternative government.”

From the beeb. Boris is making an announcement tonight that they are saying will force a GE, he’s already tried getting one, but they’ve turned him down.


----------



## Elles

I voted Remain too, although I have to be honest, it was because I thought our (Eu supporting) government would make a mess of it and it was the wrong time, rather than wanting to stay in. I believe we should leave deal, or no deal at this stage and we’ve been messed about as I thought we would be.

ETA I and other sceptics like me should have voted leave, then the leave number would have been higher and made it clearer in the first place. I’m regretting voting remain.


----------



## kimthecat

The House of Lords were up all night voting on amendments to the Bill. It had to be done with in a certain time. I felt sorry for them as many are older people and perhaps dont have the same stamina as younger people.


----------



## Guest

agenthenry69 said:


> I voted to Remain. I now think this would be the worst possible outcome now that we've spent the past 3 years embarrassing ourselves with our attempt at leaving the EU.
> If we remain after all this time, we will be bullied by the rest of the EU. I am NOT an advocate for Leave, but I do believe it's become the only real option. Therefore, deal or no deal, just get the f**k on with it.


I would have voted remain if I remained a UK citizen but life took me down a different path and I no longer have UK citizenship.

The stakes are now very high as the European Union do not have an obligation to grant another extension. To put it bluntly the United Kingdom rejected the withdrawal agreement 3 times so in this signals that the United Kingdom does not want a deal. The European Union have to yet vote on the bill being passed in the United Kingdom and it is up to the European Unions countries leaders if they agree if an extension should be given and how long for if it is agreed to and it could be alot longer than the 3 months the United Kingdom is asking for or alot less. On the other hand if one countries leader says no it is no.


----------



## havoc

There's no way I trust Boris to complete a no deal withdrawal. I fear what private arrangements he may have agreed behind the scenes with Trump. I have no problem with my fears being unfounded, I'd delight in it but I did witness the reaction of one US company straight after the referendum. If what they believed/hoped for then comes even close to fruition then Brits are in for a hard ride. Unfortunately the likes of Boris and JRM are the very individuals who are set to profit massively in such a scenario and have shown no indication that they'd look to protect our interests. We've now reached the point that we have almost the most rotten Parliament ever with most individuals on all sides only out for self.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris Johnson's brother Jo has resigned .

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/05/bori...aying-torn-family-national-interest-10691293/

Boris Johnson's younger brother Jo has quit the government, saying he is 'torn between family loyalty and the national interest.' The MP for Orpington said he will be standing down ahead of a rumoured general election, which could take place as early as next month. Mr Johnson, who is minister of state for universities and science, is a Remainer who has called for a second referendum over Brexit. Experts have said the move could be 'incredibly wounding' for the Prime Minister who is still adamant the UK will leave the EU 'with or without a deal' on October 31. Jo Johnson tweeted: 'It's been an honour to represent Orpington for nine years and to serve as a minister under three PMs. 'In recent weeks I've been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it's an unresolvable tension and time for others to take on my roles as MP and minister.'


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now Johnsons Brother is standing down as an MP.


----------



## Guest

I see an ex labour MP gone over to Lib Dems and Dame Spelman is stepping down at the next General Election and Jo Johnson, Boris Johnsons brother has quit as an MP and Cabinet Minister.

What a mess the UK Parliament is in


----------



## rona

Be careful what you wish for. Nigel is waiting in the wings primed and ready


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-us-chlorinated-chicken-britain/

*Boris Johnson to US: Britain 'not keen on that chlorinated chicken'*

*The National Health Service is not up for grabs as part of any trade deal between the U.K. and U.S., Prime Minister Boris Johnson told U.S. Vice President Mike Pence on Thursday.*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think to get a deal with the US, Trump will say jump and Johnson will ask how high, he'll sell us down the river.


----------



## KittenKong

agenthenry69 said:


> I voted to Remain. I now think this would be the worst possible outcome now that we've spent the past 3 years embarrassing ourselves with our attempt at leaving the EU.
> If we remain after all this time, we will be bullied by the rest of the EU. I am NOT an advocate for Leave, but I do believe it's become the only real option. Therefore, deal or no deal, just get the f**k on with it.


Rubbish, yes you are an advocate for Leave. Doesn't matter how you voted in 2016, in the same sense some Leave voters now back remaining.

"EU Bullies", is yet another right wing press term, like "Remoaner". Think about this: When did the EU ever involve the UK in one of their wars?

The UK chose to leave voluntarily, it's not the EU's fault, the UK has brought it on itself.

Now with Johnson as PM it's humiliating itself even further.

A once respected part of Europe and indeed in the world has been reduced to a laughing stock through this superiority, "We won the war" complex.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't remember ever been bullied by the EU we may have had our disagreements but never been bullied, so why would they start now.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> When did the EU ever involve the UK in one of their wars?


agenthenry69 never mentioned any wars so why do you keep bringing the subject up ?
The US is a country , The EU isnt.
Blair misled the US with his sexed up document and invaded Iraq , 
The Invasion of Libya was Nato led .

Individual EU countries have been involved with wars including Desert Storm
A host of nations participated in Desert Storm, to name a few: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Australia, New Zealand, France, Britain, Spain, Greece, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Canada, and the US.

The UK helped out France recently . They could have dragged us into a war .

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission

Cameron didnt have a good relationship with the EU after he vetoed treaty changes .back in 2011 I think it was .

Our MPs have cost us what ever respect we had since the Referendum with their antics.


----------



## Guest

Why is it you immediatly mention wars or communist states or dictators when someone new makes their views on the United Kingdom leaving the European Union @KittenKong?

The European Union has not bullied the United Kingdom.

Side note:-
It looks as if the United Kingdom might be in for a stroke of luck. Barnier has said the United Kingdom would be granted an extension if it asks for one. But no deal is still very much a possibility on the 31st October 2019 if the United Kingdom does not sort itself out and ask for an extension. The European Union will not be blamed if the United Kingdom decides to go for no deal. The European Union will not put the United Kingdom in a position to go for no deal but instead it will be the United Kingdoms decision if no deal happens. The French President may put up a bit of resistance in agreeing to the extension.


----------



## Guest

Do you honestly think Farage stands a chance if the United Kingdom has a General Election? That would be worse than having Boris in charge surely?


----------



## kimthecat

Does KK realise that other EU countries had/have colonies ?

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/which-european-countries-had-colonies-africa-1914-366497

In 1914, the following European nations held territories, or colonies, on the continent of Africa: Belgium, Portugal, Germany, France, Britain, Italy and Spain. Belgium's colony was the region known as the Congo (referred to as Belgian Congo), currently the Democratic Republic of Congo, and called Zaire in the decades after independence. Portuguese colonies included modern-day Angola, Mozambique, and Portuguese Guinea. German colonies consisted of current-day Namibia and Cameroon, and Togo. French colonies were Algeria, Morocco, much of West Africa (a region that currently consists of Mali, Ivory Coast, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Senegal, and Niger), French Equatorial Guinea, and Madagascar. British colonies included Egypt, Sudan, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Rhodesia (today's Zimbabwe), South Africa, and current day Kenya and Uganda. Italy's colonies included Libya, much of current day Somalia, and Eritrea. Finally, Spain's colonization on the continent consisted of a region of the western Sahara currently controlled by Morocco but sovereignty over which is sought by the indigenous ethnic group known as Sahrawis. The earlier answer is factually incorrect in referring to this section of land as part of Morocco. It is not, and the indigenous peoples have long fought Moroccan occupation, which took place following Spain's withdrawal in 1976, particularly an insurgency led by the Polisario Front


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> Do you honestly think Farage stands a chance if the United Kingdom has a General Election? That would be worse than having Boris in charge surely?


As Boris has been been hobbled, I think Farage has an extremely good chance, at least of making up a majority government with the conservatives


----------



## Elles

No one thought the Eu wouldn’t grant an extension? You know It costs us 1bn a month? The new leader wants to force a 5 year extension.

They’re all playing games, they don’t care what the British public want, unless it’s what they want.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Does KK realise that other EU countries had/have colonies ?
> 
> https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/which-european-countries-had-colonies-africa-1914-366497
> 
> In 1914, the following European nations held territories, or colonies, on the continent of Africa: Belgium, Portugal, Germany, France, Britain, Italy and Spain. Belgium's colony was the region known as the Congo (referred to as Belgian Congo), currently the Democratic Republic of Congo, and called Zaire in the decades after independence. Portuguese colonies included modern-day Angola, Mozambique, and Portuguese Guinea. German colonies consisted of current-day Namibia and Cameroon, and Togo. French colonies were Algeria, Morocco, much of West Africa (a region that currently consists of Mali, Ivory Coast, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Senegal, and Niger), French Equatorial Guinea, and Madagascar. British colonies included Egypt, Sudan, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Rhodesia (today's Zimbabwe), South Africa, and current day Kenya and Uganda. Italy's colonies included Libya, much of current day Somalia, and Eritrea. Finally, Spain's colonization on the continent consisted of a region of the western Sahara currently controlled by Morocco but sovereignty over which is sought by the indigenous ethnic group known as Sahrawis. The earlier answer is factually incorrect in referring to this section of land as part of Morocco. It is not, and the indigenous peoples have long fought Moroccan occupation, which took place following Spain's withdrawal in 1976, particularly an insurgency led by the Polisario Front


Exactly! And some of those former "colonies" are part of the EU

My family has property on the French "Outre Mer" island of Mayotte in the Indian Ocean. As is the island of Reunion. They fly the EU flag, use the Euro, vote in the French and EU elections and have to abide by EU rulings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union

*Special member state territories and the European Union*


----------



## KittenKong

Absolutely disgusting. He speaks in front of police officers, (surprised it wasn't the Army with a Spitfire flying overhead), as a supreme leader, pledging to make the ultimate sacrifice to deliver Brexit.

The UK is NOT at war with the rest of Europe. That's in his own imagination. He has declared war on his own Parliament too.

I can imagine the tabloid front pages about his, "Churchill moment". What a bloody insult to our ancestors who did make the ultimate sacrifice to ensure future generations wouldn't have governments like this one.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49598118


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> As Boris has been been hobbled, I think Farage has an extremely good chance, at least of making up a majority government with the conservatives


Farage insists on a Tory commitment to delivering no deal. Besides, they'll have to win some seats before they could enter into a coalition.

The only good thing about Johnson becoming PM will be taking the votes that would have gone to the Farage Party, thus splitting the hard Brexit vote.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely disgusting. He speaks in front of police officers, (surprised it wasn't the Army with a Spitfire flying overhead), as a supreme leader, pledging to make the ultimate sacrifice to deliver Brexit.
> 
> The UK is NOT at war with the rest of Europe. That's in his own imagination. He has declared war on his own Parliament too.
> 
> I can imagine the tabloid front pages about his, "Churchill moment". What a bloody insult to our ancestors who did make the ultimate sacrifice to ensure future generations wouldn't have governments like this one.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49598118
> 
> View attachment 415640


Well, it's a very different approach. I couldn't imagine Teresa May making a speech like that.


----------



## Elles

They don’t trust Boris to stick to the date of the GE... :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

March 29th anyone? 

Hypocrites.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely disgusting. He speaks in front of police officers, (surprised it wasn't the Army with a Spitfire flying overhead), as a supreme leader, pledging to make the ultimate sacrifice to deliver Brexit.


 I dont think being dead in a ditch is gonna help Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Exactly! And some of those former "colonies" are part of the EU
> 
> My family has property on the French "Outre Mer" island of Mayotte in the Indian Ocean. As is the island of Reunion. They fly the EU flag, use the Euro, vote in the French and EU elections and have to abide by EU rulings.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union
> 
> *Special member state territories and the European Union*


I didnt know this. Very interesting , Have you been there? I bet its beautiful.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I dont think being dead in a ditch is gonna help Brexit.


Just a way to emphasize his point not as a literal statement


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I dont think being dead in a ditch is gonna help Brexit.


Another faux pas from Boris. 

Stand in front of rookie coppers and talk about being dead in a ditch. 

Idiot.


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Just a way to emphasize his point not as a literal statement


Yeah, but we can trust Boris to be PC in front of PCs. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Just a way to emphasize his point not as a literal statement


I know.  That was a joke. I'll edit it and put a smiley in.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Another faux pas from Boris.
> 
> Stand in front of rookie coppers and talk about being dead in a ditch.
> 
> Idiot.


 Oh Blimey . That poor policeman who was killed recently .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I didnt know this. Very interesting , Have you been there? I bet its beautiful.


I lived and worked there for 7 years before coming to live in Hungary.

This is our hotel.... My son planted all the coconut palms in the late 90's when they were only a few feet tall.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I lived and worked there for 7 years before coming to live in Hungary.
> 
> This is our hotel.... My son planted all the coconut palms in the late 90's when they were only a few feet tall.


Wow! Paradise. It must have been hard to leave.


----------



## Guest

Have I heard this right. The UK House of Lords are set to reject the bill to prevent no deal.





Edited.
Sorry missunderstood the meaning of filibuster.
My apologises as they are set to pass it and send it back to the UK House of Commons.


----------



## kimthecat

Im not sure whats happening. I think there is a vote today about a GE which the opposition are trying to stop.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Im not sure whats happening. I think there is a vote today about a GE which the opposition are trying to stop.


Is this what you're thinking of? If so, the vote will be on Monday.

https://www.cityam.com/labour-confi...mail&utm_campaign=Midday+newsletter+June+2019

*Labour confirms it will not back an early election in Monday's vote*


----------



## Guest

Any attempts by the UK Parliament to extend Brexit maybe gone as the President of France may Veto any extension to article 50 saying any trust with the United Kingdom has broken down because of the crisis with Boris Johnson which is very disturbing.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Any attempts by the UK Parliament to extend Brexit maybe gone as the President of France may Veto any extension to article 50 saying any trust with the United Kingdom has broken down because of the crisis with Boris Johnson which is very disturbing.


Which is possibly why BJ is so intransigent about leaving on Oct 31.

Let's face it Macron has ambitions to become the EU's Napoleon, now that Merkel is bowing out and this is a good opportunity to flex his muscles!


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum yes , so its Monday. Thanks.

ON BBC news 1pm

Gina Miller has lost a legal challenge in the High Court against Boris Johnson's decision to suspend parliament for five weeks ahead of the Brexit deadline.

Miller and her team had challenged the legitimacy of the advice the prime minister gave to the Queen before she signed off on his plans to 'prorogue' parliament, with Miller's lawyer calling it "an unlawful abuse of power".

But the case was rejected by leading judges in London on Friday. However, judges granted permission for the case to go the Supreme Court for an appeal, which will be heard on September 17.
In a written statement released after the ruling, Miller said: "We are very disappointed with the judgment today.

"We feel strongly that parliamentary sovereignty is fundamental to the stability and future of our country and is therefore worth fighting to defend.

"As our politics becomes more chaotic on a daily basis, the more vital it is that parliament is sitting."

Yet she's added to that chaos


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Gina Miller has lost a legal challenge in the High Court against Boris Johnson's decision to suspend parliament for five weeks ahead of the Brexit deadline.


She is going to appeal (so I read).


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> She is going to appeal (so I read).


The judge has given her leave to appeal but it might be too late.


----------



## Elles

The Queen signed it off. What a load of rubbish over a few extra days that MPs have been asking for for months. Parliament wouldn’t have been sitting for most of it anyway. Isn’t it an extra 4 days they’re arguing over? From what I’ve seen, half of them don’t turn up anyway, unless there’s something juicy going on. It probably is part of a ploy by Boris, but they’re not exactly innocent themselves, trying any tactics they can to stop brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The Queen signed it off. What a load of rubbish over a few extra days that MPs have been asking for for months. Parliament wouldn't have been sitting for most of it anyway. Isn't it an extra 4 days they're arguing over? From what I've seen, half of them don't turn up anyway, unless there's something juicy going on. It probably is part of a ploy by Boris, but they're not exactly innocent themselves, trying any tactics they can to stop brexit.


I often watch the HOC sittings on Parliament Live and as you say the only time there's a full house is when there's something juicy to discuss or Wednesday for PMQT, The rest of the time the place is more than half empty! And of course the HOC doesn't sit on a Friday which if all this fuss is considered to be an emergency one would have thought they would do to help make up the lost 4 days.


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> She is going to appeal (so I read).


I think the Supreme court will dismiss it.
The Supreme Court in Scotland dismissed the one the MP's went to court with saying it is not for the courts to rule on as it does not fall into the rule of law. or something like that.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> The Queen signed it off. What a load of rubbish over a few extra days that MPs have been asking for for months. Parliament wouldn't have been sitting for most of it anyway. Isn't it an extra 4 days they're arguing over? From what I've seen, half of them don't turn up anyway, unless there's something juicy going on. It probably is part of a ploy by Boris, but they're not exactly innocent themselves, trying any tactics they can to stop brexit.


Wasn't the conference season meant to have started so MP's would not have been sitting in the UK House of Commons anyway as Jacob Rees Mogg said some of them would have been at the seaside at a party conference there.

There is no guarantee that the bill passing through the UK Houses of Parliament will be accepted by all the European Union 27 other countries. Already the French President is planning to Veto it. So this performance by MP's in the House of Commons will be an utter waste of time if the French President does veto the article 50 extension.


----------



## Guest

I see opposition parties are planning not to vote on Boris Johnsons 2nd call for a General Election on Monday. The UK has a Government at the moment is run by the opposition parties because the UK Government has no majority.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> I see opposition parties are planning not to vote on Boris Johnsons 2nd call for a General Election on Monday. The UK has a Government at the moment is run by the opposition parties because the UK Government has no majority.


Absolutely and it's pathetic. They're probably trying to get a vote of no confidence to set up an interim government themselves.

Johnson has gone on tv a number of times and said the date of the election. If he doesn't stick to it he knows he'll never be voted in. They should let him do it, then if he does delay the election and leave without a deal, he'll not get back in and they can start the process of taking us back in the Eu, or as near as damnit as they want, instead of all this messing about.

If he wins we'll leave without a deal and voters will have given him the go ahead. That's what they're afraid of.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Absolutely and it's pathetic. They're probably trying to get a vote of no confidence to set up an interim government themselves.
> 
> Johnson has gone on tv a number of times and said the date of the election. If he doesn't stick to it he knows he'll never be voted in. They should let him do it, then if he does delay the election and leave without a deal, he'll not get back in and they can start the process of taking us back in the Eu, or as near as damnit as they want, instead of all this messing about.
> 
> If he wins we'll leave without a deal and voters will have given him the go ahead. That's what they're afraid of.


An interesting take from Melanie Phillips,

https://www.melaniephillips.com/prime-minister-hostage-brexit-civil-war/

*PRIME MINISTER TAKEN HOSTAGE IN BRITAIN'S BREXIT CIVIL WAR*


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> An interesting take from Melanie Phillips,
> 
> https://www.melaniephillips.com/prime-minister-hostage-brexit-civil-war/
> 
> *PRIME MINISTER TAKEN HOSTAGE IN BRITAIN'S BREXIT CIVIL WAR*


Don't know who she is, but she's not wrong.


----------



## Guest

What are Boris Johnsons options now? It is for certain that the opposition MP's are going to deny a General Election for now. The United Kingdom has a Government paralysed by the oposition parties and they have no confidence in the British public because they won't allow a General Election. 

Will Boris call a vote of no confidence in himself of step down as Prime Minister because the oposition parties won't give him the chance to make decisions on Brexit?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Don't know who she is, but she's not wrong.


Here you go .............

https://www.google.com/search?q=mel...j0j69i60l3.22173j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

She also has a weekly news letter that I subscribe to.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> What are Boris Johnsons options now? It is for certain that the opposition MP's are going to deny a General Election for now. The United Kingdom has a Government paralysed by the oposition parties and they have no confidence in the British public because they won't allow a General Election.
> 
> Will Boris call a vote of no confidence in himself of step down as Prime Minister because the oposition parties won't give him the chance to make decisions on Brexit?


Perhaps this might help to answer the question ....

https://www.instituteforgovernment....69225eb6261d64dfbc39d7283b2cb89d5189540b69330

*Early election*

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2/enacted

*Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011*


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I have absolutely no idea what's going on any more.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what's going on any more.


I wouldn't worry about it, you're not alone!

Last night CNN interviewed two MP's both of whom admitted they didn't have a clue what was happening!:Wtf


----------



## Elles

Boris has said he’ll kick out the erg and anyone else who doesn’t vote for the very good deal he’s got.


----------



## Elles

A labour and a Lib Dem politician have said that even if their own party got control and negotiated a good deal with the EU that wins a public vote (when given the choice of the deal, or remain, public chooses the deal) they will not accept it and will vote and campaign against their own deal and continue to fight to remain in the Eu. These are the same politicians who talk about trust and democracy and who have previously said they respect the result of the referendum. 

So it is as I said. Pointless trying to get a deal with the Eu, or having a public vote when some MPs are going to vote against it regardless, because they want to stay in. At least we’re getting to the nitty gritty now, none of this we respect the public’s vote any more.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> A labour and a Lib Dem politician have said that even if their own party got control and negotiated a good deal with the EU that wins a public vote (when given the choice of the deal, or remain, public chooses the deal) they will not accept it and will vote and campaign against their own deal and continue to fight to remain in the Eu. These are the same politicians who talk about trust and democracy and who have previously said they respect the result of the referendum.
> 
> So it is as I said. Pointless trying to get a deal with the Eu, or having a public vote when some MPs are going to vote against it regardless, because they want to stay in. At least we're getting to the nitty gritty now, none of this we respect the public's vote any more.


It seems then, the only one who's determined to honour the will of the people and get us out of the EU is Boris Johnson?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://qz.com/1700806/these-brexit...s-is/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=daily-brief

*These mind-bending flowcharts show just how messy Brexit has become*


----------



## Elles

All Eu member states have to agree to an extension. Suggestions are that Boris will ask individual countries to support him and refuse it.. 

Of course they know we pay in, so they’ll potentially be turning down any of our money that the Eu would allocate to them, so it probably depends how much they need it, what they think of Boris and what he’s said/promised them. Eu countries are beginning to suggest that our leaving without a deal and continuing negotiations once we’ve left may in fact be the best option though. So something’s going on.

Despite the bill supposedly preventing no deal, politicians are now saying they’ve changed their minds (again) and won’t agree to a GE until Boris has gone back to the Eu and agreed an extension.


----------



## Guest

I read today that the UK opposition MP's had already approached the European Union for an extension and it was agreed in principle before they drafted up the bill that is to become UK law on Monday. Although there has been no reason given for the extension eg General Election or 2nd Referendum. I guess the European Union is hoping that a UK General Election happens within the 3 months they are willing to grant or the withdrawal agreement is passed.

The remaining 27 countries leaders are still to say yes or no to it so it could still end up that the United Kingdom leaves the European Union with no deal.


----------



## Guest

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I have absolutely no idea what's going on any more.


I don't think alot of people know what is going on. I am certainly confused.


----------



## Happy Paws2

What a mess we are in and I don't see a happy ending to it. 

I voted to remain as most of you know, I accept the result of the referendum even if it is my worsted nightmare, but I'd hate to leave without a deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> It seems then, the only one who's determined to honour the will of the people and get us out of the EU is Boris Johnson?


Since when No Deal was more than The Will of ERG?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Well... Party cleansing by the Stalinist standards... Putin would be proud!!!

The famous moment in Russian Parliament when MP dared to have an opinion...
He was promptly put in his place “ We are not here to argue “. 


It is truly heartbreaking to see the cradle of democracy, the parliament that was a model for other democratic countries, the model that inspired us, when we were teens to fight for democracy in our country, to be so abused.


It will be such shame if opposition will not find the strength to unite and stop that abuse.


It is horrendous when No Deal that will destroy livehoods of so many poor people to make the rich even richer Labour was more bothered with their infighting and their leader getting in a huff.


But never coming with a clear idea what he supports, what Labour position on Brexit or PV actually is.

The only group that is clear is ERG .
Sadly their aim is to make more money no matter how it affects anyone or the country, after all they are millionaires and can live anywhere :Banghead

Out of EU straight into Trump’s orange arms...:Nailbiting


----------



## cheekyscrip

Good one Amber Rudd!!!

Nasty Party soon will be free of anyone capable of independent thinking.

They can call themselves The ERG and Brown Noses.

Then change the blue to brown.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Good one Amber Rudd!!!
> 
> Nasty Party soon will be free of anyone capable of independent thinking.
> 
> They can call themselves The ERG and Brown Noses.
> 
> Then change the blue to brown.


Remarkably, Johnson has increased his lead in the opinion polls, according to the Guardian. The Tories are likely to be wiped out in Scotland however.


----------



## Elles

I feel quite uncomfortable over these MPs who want to just stop Brexit. What else will they stop, or ignore that people vote on? They should at least still carry on with their People’s Vote thing. Another leaves labour and joins the Lib Dems.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well Done Amber Rudd an tory with some sense.


----------



## Elles

What I don’t understand is that we were given a referendum and the government were told by the result, to take us out of the Eu as promised and put into law with article 50. Not only have they not done it, it becomes clearer with every passing day, that the majority of MPs fully intended to block it and prevent it. Many of them are no longer even pretending to ‘respect the result of the referendum’.

Don’t you think that’s really bad? They talk about anyone who suggests they might actually comply with the result of a democratic vote and what they all signed up for, as though they’re some kind of anti democratic dictator. How can they be when it was put to the voting public and then they all signed it off? They’re now saying that if Boris does take us out of the Eu they’ll get him arrested. 

If this was say a country who voted to leave the Soviet Union and their PM promised to do it, but the rest of them stopped it and threatened to get him thrown in prison, wouldn’t we all be having kittens about it?


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well Done Amber Rudd an tory with some sense.


Took her long enough but, respect.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> What I don't understand is that we were given a referendum and the government were told by the result, to take us out of the Eu as promised and put into law with article 50. Not only have they not done it, it becomes clearer with every passing day, that the majority of MPs fully intended to block it and prevent it. Many of them are no longer even pretending to 'respect the result of the referendum'.
> 
> Don't you think that's really bad? They talk about anyone who suggests they might actually comply with the result of a democratic vote and what they all signed up for, as though they're some kind of anti democratic dictator. How can they be when it was put to the voting public and then they all signed it off? They're now saying that if Boris does take us out of the Eu they'll get him arrested.
> If this was say a country who voted to leave the Soviet Union and their PM promised to do it, but the rest of them stopped it and threatened to get him thrown in prison, wouldn't we all be having kittens about it?


People in Poland voted to leave Soviet Union.
To have the result binding and avoid the country split in halves at least two thirds voters had to participate and two thirds had to vote one way or other.
Else it was NOT binding and decision was back to Parliament.

Referendum on Brexit was not binding.

Soviet Union was a prison camp ruled absolutely by Russia and Poland and others never consented to be a part of it.

We were given to Stalin after WWII as a reward for his war efforts, betrayal by our allies, Britain among them.

How can you even compare???

Soviets ordered my family to be sent to Syberia.

How many British people were sent to camps by EU?

The only analogy with Soviet regime I see when BoJo purged Tories from members far, far better, wiser and distinguished than he or JRM.

I agree, tell people what No Deal actually means and let's have PV.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now Tories decided to get rid of Bercow.

Obviously he is not defending Constitution enough.


Purge.

Tbh we might just as well have Farage.


I see nothing more dangerous than ERG ruling Britain with Brown Noses.

Nothing more dangerous than being vassals of USA led by Trump.


----------



## Elles

Bercow is supposed to remain impartial, he’s obviously not. 

I wasn’t comparing actual events, but rather hypothetical ones. If a country voted to leave the Soviet Union, even by just one vote, we’d be up in arms if their leader wanted to do it, but his parliament prevented it. 

The referendum wasn’t legally binding on the day, though we were told that whatever we decided would be implemented, leaving was written into law as soon as they invoked article 50. They agreed that it’s law that we leave with or without a deal within 2 years. They told us before the referendum that it would be the case. 2/3 weren’t mentioned. 

This was the biggest vote in U.K. history, if we were told it was just a poll and didn’t matter, people wouldn’t have bothered turning out and what a waste spending money promoting it, especially taxpayer’s money.

Now they want to change the law again. Every time remainers don’t get what they want, they change the law and do something about it. Were the brexiters in government half as powerful or numerous as remainers we would have already left.

Leave votes weren’t important and are being ignored, but you shouldn’t be pleased about it. Whose vote will they ignore next. What if we have a vote whether to give Gib to Spain and say no, but our politicians connive with Spain and do it anyway? I’m not discussing the result, I’m discussing erosion of democracy and politicians ignoring a referendum they said they’d abide by and changing the law to suit themselves. 

Not only that, they are saying that regardless of what they’ve previously said, what they were elected on, what they signed and what the law is, they had and have no intention of permitting the U.K. to leave the Eu at all. It doesn’t even matter what their own constituents voted for, or vote for in the future. They think it’s best if we stay in and their vote counts more than anyone else’s, because they can actually do something about it.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Now Tories decided to get rid of Bercow.
> 
> Obviously he is not defending Constitution enough.
> 
> Purge.
> 
> Tbh we might just as well have Farage.
> 
> I see nothing more dangerous than ERG ruling Britain with Brown Noses.
> 
> Nothing more dangerous than being vassals of USA led by Trump.


Btw lets have another election then? The people are supposed to be in charge, the government our representatives and servants. No one in Britain voted for Trump to be in charge. If the majority of people want Farage (obviously I don't), then it's not up to you, or I. We vote for what we want and if more people vote the opposite, we have to abide by it.


----------



## Guest

Varadkar mentioned today in the news conference with Boris Johnson that the European Union remaining 27 countries want a decision from the United Kingdom and that the leaders of the 27 remaining countries will not vote to extend article 50 without a reason. A reason has not been given yet. It seems the opposition MP's want to extend article 50 for the sake of it and this is unacceptable.The acceptable reasons are a General Election or 2nd Referendum.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...assent-boris-johnson-parliament-politics-live

*Brexit: Parliament to be prorogued tonight, Downing Street confirms - live news*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...assent-boris-johnson-parliament-politics-live
> 
> *Brexit: Parliament to be prorogued tonight, Downing Street confirms - live news*


More time off for the UK MP's even though it was meant to have been conference season anyway.


----------



## kimthecat

More delays will cause problems for small business as they cannot plan or expand. 
We wont get a good deal so perhaps it should be a choice between Remain or No deal and have a referendum on it.

Surprisingly , despite the delays etc there seems to be some good news.

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAH1uA6?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

Fears of a UK recession are easing, as new data released on Monday shows better than expected economic growth in July.
The UK economy grew by 0.3% between June and July, according to the Office of National Statistics (ONS). Economists had forecast month-on-month growth of just 0.1%, up from 0% in the prior month.
The data suggests the UK could be on track to escape a recession.


----------



## Elles

If we have a GE now, we have the choice between leave or remain. If we leave the Eu and then have an election, we have the choice between Boris and Jeremy.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> If we have a GE now, we have the choice between leave or remain. If we leave the Eu and then have an election, we have the choice between Boris and Jeremy.


Same now.

What a choice!!!!

:Banghead

Two careerists. None can be trusted.


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Sunday 8 September 2019 by Davywavy*

*To prevent No Deal you'll have to let Jeremy f*ck up everything else, insists Labour*









*The price of blocking a no-deal Brexit is putting Jeremy Corbyn in charge so he can **** everything else up instead, Labour have confirmed.*

Corbyn has offered to become Prime Minister without an election in order to stop the UK leaving the EU without a deal, but potential allies are reluctant to deal on those terms due to his pledge to **** up absolutely everything just as badly, but in different ways.

"It's not an easy choice," said wavering MP Simon Williams. "On the one hand you've got a Prime Minister whose supporters ignore his manifest flaws, have led vitriolic hate campaigns against any dissenting voices whilst proposing an economic spray of shit, whilst on the other hand, you've got Jeremy Corbyn who… oh you get the picture.

"It's like that philosophical conundrum exemplified by the trolley problem - you see a tram full of people heading off a cliff, but you can switch the points so it explodes instead.

"Both options ****ing suck, but at least if it goes off a cliff I don't have to actively support that for it to happen - so at this stage I'm just looking busy, saying stuff that sounds concerned and hoping it all gets resolved without me having to do … well, anything."

In an attempt to reach out to undecided MPs, this afternoon a Labour spokesman pointed out that when Jeremy ****s everything up it won't be deliberate, it'll be because he's completely hopeless.


----------



## Guest

*British Investments in the Netherlands Soar as Brexit Deadline nears*

British companies have upped their investments in the Netherlands more than five-fold since the Brexit referendum in 2018, according to new calculations by Dutch statistics agency CBS. In 2016, British multinationals invested €14bn in Dutch companies but by last year this had risen to €80bn. This makes Britain the biggest foreign investor in the Netherlands, the CBS said. By contrast, Dutch firms are pulling their investments out of Britain. In 2016, Dutch firms pumped €50bn into the UK but that halved in 2017 and in 2018 they actually withdrew €11bn. This is because Britain's withdrawal from the EU makes it less attractive for Dutch firms to invest in British subsidiaries. The CBS figures are notable given that the Dutch foreign investment agency NFIA, which is working to attract new companies to the Netherlands, only managed to attract 38 new firms last year, none of which are big names and most of which involve small offices. So far, 98 firms have made the move. A spokesman for the Dutch central bank, which provided the figures to the CBS, told the Financieele Dagblad the bulk of the investment - €30bn - was made in the final quarter. It was primarily due to intangibles brought to the Netherlands by one multinational, which it did not name. Minister Meanwhile, trade minister Sigrid Kaag has expressed her exasperation at the lack of movement in the Brexit talks. 'At a certain moment, enough is enough,' she told the Financieele Dagblad in an interview. 'At that point the certainty offered by a worsening situation is better than continuing uncertainty with no new perspective.' The latest developments in London are 'unbelievable', she said, and the damage that is being caused 'dramatic'.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...he-netherlands-soar-as-brexit-deadline-nears/


----------



## Guest

Is everything that is happening in the United Kingdom Parliament to late?

3 Years of uncertanity is damaging the United Kingdom economically and with businesses leaving to come to here in the Netherlands and other European Countries.


----------



## Guest

These are the polls if there was to be a General Election in the United Kingdom.








The Conservatives would win again.








https://www.google.com/amp/s/moneym...lysis-labour-mp-quits-5HpFYe73nE-AdmKfBxRJoA/


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Is everything that is happening in the United Kingdom Parliament to late?
> 
> 3 Years of uncertanity is damaging the United Kingdom economically and with businesses leaving to come to here in the Netherlands and other European Countries.


Live on the BBC .THeyre debating the PMs proposal for an early GE. The House of commons is filled with MPs and they;re debating things or rather they are having a go at Boris. The ticker tape bit at the bottom of the screen says he wont ask for an extension . The opposition say they want an election but not on Boris's terms.

I dont know if the proporgation is going ahead tonight. TBH Im too tired to follow the debate !

Eta proporgation . I think ive invented a new word.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Live on the BBC .THeyre debating the PMs proposal for an early GE. The House of commons is filled with MPs and they;re debating things or rather they are having a go at Boris. The ticker tape bit at the bottom of the screen says he wont ask for an extension . The opposition say they want an election but not on Boris's terms.
> 
> I dont know if the proporgation is going ahead tonight. TBH Im too tired to follow the debate !


Johnsons request for a UK General Election has been rejected again which means no UK General Election before 21st November. The UK Parliament is now suspended until 14th October so no more debates in the UK Parliament on Brexit until after the UK Queen's speech at the opening of the new UK Parliament session.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/bru...0586ae2236-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_09_10_05_10&ut

*Brussels can't help but extend the Brexit horror show*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.politico.eu/article/bru...0586ae2236-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_09_10_05_10&ut
> 
> *Brussels can't help but extend the Brexit horror show*


Will Johnson request an extension though verbally or by letter?

If he doesn't and breaks UK Law you may find that the risks are very high as the other European Union 27 leaders could say no to any extension. France is already threatening to veto any extension.

The stakes are very high now.


----------



## havoc

The risks have always been high. Unfortunately, as always, the press concentrate on juicy headlines about the short term which people love to latch onto. It's about a damn sight more than queues of trucks and chlorinated chicken.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Will Johnson request an extension though verbally or by letter?
> 
> If he doesn't and breaks UK Law you may find that the risks are very high as the other European Union 27 leaders could say no to any extension. France is already threatening to veto any extension.
> 
> The stakes are very high now.


Like everyone else I have no idea how, hen and if BJ will request an extension.

From what I'm reading this morning, if he does (by whatever means) it seems likely the chances are an extension will be granted.

https://www.politico.eu/article/luxembourg-pm-brexit-extension-but-clear-

*Luxembourg PM: I'll back a Brexit extension but we need a clear plan*

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausl...-bereit-fuer-eine-verschiebung-a-1285808.html

*Johnson opponents can hope for EU Parliament*
*
*


----------



## Guest

European Union appoints Irelands EU commissoner Phil Hogan to negotiate the United Kingdoms trade deal after it leaves the European Union on the 31st October 2019.

Mr Hogan was confirmed as being trade negotiator by incoming president Ursula von der Leyen on Tuesday afternoon at a press conference in Brussels, where she unveiled her new cabinet. The whole Commission will have to be confirmed by the European Parliament following a series of hearings.

The European Union chiefs have confirmed the European Union is ready for the United Kingdoms no deal on the withdrawal agreement.


----------



## kimthecat

Yesterday , I mentioned a fight in the street , Both sides have been charged with assault but the black guy hasn't been charged with yelling white pussy trying to provoke the white guy , If it had been the other way round, that would have been a hate crime and blaming Brexit .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> If it had been the other way round, that would have been a hate crime and blaming Brexit


Now Kim, you know that you cannot be the victim of racism if you are white. If it had been the other way round it would be in the papers before long.


----------



## Magyarmum

A poll taken by YouGov for A UK in a Changing Europe


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> A poll taken by YouGov for A UK in a Changing Europe


Well...............you can see where all the anger is emanating from


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Well...............you can see where all the anger is emanating from


Not necessary for words is it? The stats speak for themselves:Angelic


----------



## Elles

How stupid. Even the most stalwart of leavers could be disappointed at not getting a good deal, it doesn’t put them on the remain side of the poll.

ETA if many Remain voters would be angry, or upset about it we should probably not leave without a deal, or at least make the best effort to get one. MPs should vote in favour of a deal, not try to cancel brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> How stupid. Even the most stalwart of leavers could be disappointed at not getting a good deal, it doesn't put them on the remain side of the poll.


Statistically speaking, I think the most interesting part is there are almost as many Leave voters who would feel betrayed, angry or disappointed with a No Deal as who would be pleased or delighted. At least that consigns the whole 'people who voted Leave meant they wanted Brexit at any cost' argument to the dustbin.

Note: 'Relieved' I'm discounting from this subset as I'm interpreting that response from both parties as meaning 'Fed up with the whole thing and just want it over with however it ends' rather than 'I was afraid we wouldn't get a No Deal' kind of relief, on the grounds that anyone thinking the latter would more logically have voted Pleased or Delighted. 


Elles said:


> ETA if many Remain voters would be angry, or upset about it we should probably not leave without a deal, or at least make the best effort to get one. MPs should vote in favour of a deal, not try to cancel brexit.


And we can't exactly say Our Glorious Leaders have made a best effort at getting one, sadly. Plus if they were being sensible about Brexit they would have done all that negotiating (or as much as possible) before invoking Article 51 anyway, so at least we'd have had the two years to actually prepare in a sensible fashion s that period of time is intended to be for, not still be blundering around wondering what the blazes is going on...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Statistically speaking, I think the most interesting part is there are almost as many Leave voters who would feel betrayed, angry or disappointed with a No Deal as who would be pleased or delighted. At least that consigns the whole 'people who voted Leave meant they wanted Brexit at any cost' argument to the dustbin.
> 
> Note: 'Relieved' I'm discounting from this subset as I'm interpreting that response from both parties as meaning 'Fed up with the whole thing and just want it over with however it ends' rather than 'I was afraid we wouldn't get a No Deal' kind of relief, on the grounds that anyone thinking the latter would more logically have voted Pleased or Delighted.
> 
> And we can't exactly say Our Glorious Leaders have made a best effort at getting one, sadly. Plus if they were being sensible about Brexit they would have done all that negotiating (or as much as possible) before invoking Article 51 anyway, so at least we'd have had the two years to actually prepare in a sensible fashion s that period of time is intended to be for, not still be blundering around wondering what the blazes is going on...


This is the article (which I've only just found) that goes with the poll results

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-polling-t...sons-no-deal-brexit-strategy-is-a-major-risk/

*The polling that shows why Boris Johnson's no-deal Brexit strategy is a major risk*


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious
> View attachment 416211


Which one is which ?

The suspension of parliament is now going to the Supreme Court .


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump *
*
September 2019 by Davywavy*

*EU threatens to expel the UK unless parliament is reopened*









*The EU has responded to attempts to prorogue and close Parliament by saying the UK will be expelled from the European Union unless it immediately reopens the Commons.*

Criticising the closure of Parliament in the strongest possible terms, the European Union has given Britain less than two months to return to the principles of Democracy and the rule of law or face being expelled on the first of November.

"We are shocked by the undemocratic conditions that currently prevail in Britain," said outgoing Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

"They are simply not living up to the values that we cultivate in the EU as a democratic community of states."

"Expulsion is the harshest penalty the Union can impose," he added.

"Member states must adhere to minimum standards of Democracy or face losing the benefits of membership, including the single market, frictionless trade, free movement of people and shared intelligence briefings."

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has responded by slamming the threat, saying that the EU simply expelling the UK would be catastrophic for the British economy.

"This is just typical of those unelected Brussels bureaucrats," he told reporters.

"To threaten us with the sort of consequences that they _know_ would cause significant and lasting damage is entirely reckless.

"You would have to be insane to threaten to do this to a country, and mark my words if they don't withdraw their threats then we'll leave and cause all this damage to ourselves voluntarily."


----------



## Elles

I knew they’d take disappointed to mean worse than it does, in the article it counts disappointed with betrayed and angry and calls it ‘outraged’. It’s a biased report both by its questions and it’s analysis of the answer.

Of course it’ll be a shame if we don’t get a good deal, I would have ticked disappointed. I’m not going to be pleased or delighted if we leave with no deal, when we could have a got a deal first. However, now ask me what I think if we remain?


----------



## Elles

So we had the biased yellowhammer doctor who phoned in, all over the news with his opinion. Now we get the guy who was responsible for the port of Dover phoning in saying how it’s all going to work if there’s no deal, and nothing. He went on tv and said that there will be no food shortages as imports aren’t going to be delayed. Some Exporters may need to organise extra paperwork and will have a year to do it, but imports will be fine, there’ll be no shortage of Brie in Tesco. The paperwork will be checked elsewhere and across Europe and the U.K. This was already being organised under TM’s government, Boris has pushed it further.

Boris is also changing the hardcore immigration rules that TM brought in and isn’t going to be sticking to her numbers. He’s already done away with the 4 month limit for graduates. Students now have a couple of years to find work, or continue their studies, not the 4 months TM gave them.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## kimthecat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49661650
Incoming European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has found herself under fire for nominating a commissioner responsible for "Protecting our European Way of Life".

Critics say the portfolio, which will oversee migration and security, taps into right-wing rhetoric.

One Dutch MEP described the move as "grotesque" while Amnesty International said it was "worrying".

Migration has become a key political battleground in many EU states.

Some right-wing and nationalist groups have made strong electoral gains with pledges to curb the flow of immigrants into the bloc.

The new role emerged as Mrs von der Leyen named her executive team.


----------



## Magyarmum

Belfast High Court dismissed no deal Brexit challenge

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...it-challenge-dismissed-in-court-idUSKCN1VX14C

*Northern Irish 'no-deal' Brexit challenge dismissed in court*


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49661650
> Incoming European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has found herself under fire for nominating a commissioner responsible for "Protecting our European Way of Life".
> 
> Critics say the portfolio, which will oversee migration and security, taps into right-wing rhetoric.
> 
> One Dutch MEP described the move as "grotesque" while Amnesty International said it was "worrying".
> 
> Migration has become a key political battleground in many EU states.
> 
> Some right-wing and nationalist groups have made strong electoral gains with pledges to curb the flow of immigrants into the bloc.
> 
> The new role emerged as Mrs von der Leyen named her executive team.


https://unherd.com/2019/09/the-eus-...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

*The EU's soul-destroying rhetoric*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> https://unherd.com/2019/09/the-eus-...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3
> 
> *The EU's soul-destroying rhetoric*


I dont know what it is meant by A European way of life . EU countries have differences which makes it interesting to visit them.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I dont know what it is meant by A European way of life . EU countries have differences which makes it interesting to visit them.


Probably means more about what it's not than what it is. There are quite a lot of traditions and customs from countries outside of Europe, that are totally against what we expect of people living in any part of Europe of course.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I dont know what it is meant by A European way of life . EU countries have differences which makes it interesting to visit them.


What, like French legal glue trapping of Thrushes, Blackbirds etc, or fois gras, the Spanish bull fighting, or throwing goats from spires.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I dont know what it is meant by A European way of life


It's not unlike the sort of comment Nigel Farage has often been lambasted for.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> What, like French legal glue trapping of Thrushes, Blackbirds etc, or fois gras, the Spanish bull fighting, or throwing goats from spires.


Yes ! 

It looks to me like the article is taking a pop at Christianity.


----------



## Jesthar

I know, I know - we hate memes on this thread! but I can't resist this one, sorry!


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> I know, I know - we hate memes on this thread! but I can't resist this one, sorry!


Ok I'll forgive you just this once.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Ok I'll forgive you just this once.


Its so funny :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

corbyn can do the body searches !


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Yes !
> 
> It looks to me like the article is taking a pop at Christianity.


Far from it! The author is Canon Dr Giles Fraser Rector of St Mary's Newington.

I think the last two paragraphs sums it up - at least in my understanding, poor though it may be:Sorry

"Tom Holland's thesis is that the European moral imagination has been so schooled by the Christian story that, whether we are religious or not, we would be lost without it. It is not, however, a contribution to the debate about immigration. Christianity, as he tells it, is not a membership organisation for insiders, and certainly not for insiders defined by ethnicity.

It is a way of looking at the world that has saturated our European values. And as such, for Europeans, it is not one choice among others, but the background against which things make moral sense. And without it, we are at the mercy of brutal forces that would define our values in terms of power or commerce. From this perspective, in 't Veld is not defending all that makes Europe a force for good in the world. She is undermining it".


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> What, like French legal glue trapping of Thrushes, Blackbirds etc, or fois gras, the Spanish bull fighting, or throwing goats from spires.


Don't forget tearing foxes to shreds for the fun of it... would you call it British way of life?
BoJo wants it!


----------



## cheekyscrip

How many of The People voted for Yellowhammer?

This is what you will get!!! 
If we leave with No Deal.
Yellowhammer is not a scaremongering by opposition by what the Government so full of The Will of The People is preparing for the People.

But worry not, no member of Government will be harmed during NoDeal Yellowhammer operation.
Surely ERG will not run out of food, fuel, medicines or drinkable water.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Don't forget tearing foxes to shreds for the fun of it... would you call it British way of life?
> BoJo wants it!


But its not legal and its not a National sport.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> But its not legal and its not a National sport.


But Tories , especially those from ERG want it back.
I don't think throwing goats is a national sport either.

I detest corrida and any form of mauling or killing animals for fun and fox hunting falls into that category.

Spanish right wing is the strongest bastion of corrida.

They have the same argument: tradition!!!

Following that logic we could be throwing Christians to lions (poor lions) as a Roman tradition!!!

In so many countries right wing and cruelty towards animals as "tradition" go hand in hand and are committed by the privileged not by uneducated and hungry.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> fox hunting falls into that category.


Yep, many EU countries still do that unlike the UK


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> I know, I know - we hate memes on this thread! but I can't resist this one, sorry!


Brilliant....I nearly knocked my glass of water over my computer


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Yep, many EU countries still do that unlike the UK


Hmmm...
Am I dreaming or TM lost majority in last election promising to bring it back?
BoJo wanted in on streets of London?

I understand that illegal fox hunts barely disguised are still on or it is just fake news?

Saying that Spain still leads in animal cruelty and Britain staying in EU had much better chance to bring on laws banning mauling and killing animals for entertainment.

But if you look who in Parliament votes in favour of ivory trade, fox hunting etc... it is always the same old ERG.

I wouldn't mind some ERG hunting instead ...:Smuggrin


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Saying that Spain still leads in animal cruelty


Are you sure it's not Ireland, after all anyone here can just pop over there to hunt legally


----------



## Elles

Yellowhammer isn’t what we’ll get if we brexit with no deal, don’t be fooled by the scaremongers.  

It’s trying to imagine a worst case scenario if no one does anything about anything and our government doesn’t prepare for it and the absolute worst happens on top. It’s like trying to imagine what’s the worst that would happen if... then using a load of ifs that wouldn’t happen. Like what would happen if everyone’s fridges broke down tomorrow, what would we do and how much would it cost to can food instead of freezing it. It’s risk assessment using scenarios, not predictions of the future.

We also have what ifs that benefit us. What if we leave the Eu and organise our own trade deals, what will we be looking for and where. Then preparing for it. The Australians have. They are already waiting.


----------



## rona

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/

Dover and Calais will continue to work smoothly after Brexit, according to man in charge of the French Channel ports, who described concerns about the crossing as "bullshit".

Jean-Marc Puissesseau insisted that no problems will arise at the ports, which are vital to British trade with Europe.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yellowhammer isn't what we'll get if we brexit with no deal, don't be fooled by the scaremongers.
> 
> It's trying to imagine a worst case scenario if no one does anything about anything and our government doesn't prepare for it and the absolute worst happens on top. It's like trying to imagine what's the worst that would happen if... then using a load of ifs that wouldn't happen. Like what would happen if everyone's fridges broke down tomorrow, what would we do and how much would it cost to can food instead of freezing it. It's risk assessment using scenarios, not predictions of the future.
> 
> We also have what ifs that benefit us. What if we leave the Eu and organise our own trade deals, what will we be looking for and where. Then preparing for it. The Australians have. They are already waiting.


It's quite normal in business when thinking of, or planning a new venture to do a worst case scenario. I've done several in my working life, and even though I'm retired still tend to do them especially if I'm going to be away from home for some time.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> In so many countries right wing and cruelty towards animals as "tradition" go hand in hand and are committed by the privileged not by uneducated and hungry.


I find this patronising , Anyone who isn't privileged is uneducated and hungry?

The "uneducated and poor" do hare coursing . Its illegal too .


----------



## Guest

Eurostar services will continue as well regardless if there is no deal.

https://www.eurostar.com/rw-en/travel-info/service-information/eurostar-travel-updates


----------



## Guest

Operation Yellow Hammer is a document with assumptions of worst case scenarios. The document has and does change as it works on worst case scenarios. It does not mean it will happen. The Operation Yellow Hammer document is alot of what if's.

Regardless the UK Government has to be prepared for all scenarios if no deal happens.

Deals and agreements on certain things are already in place with the European Union and United Kingdom. Planes will continue to fly, ships will continue cross the channel and the Eurostar will continue running services as well and British citizens will not need visas to come to any other European Country outside of the United Kingdom.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I find this patronising , Anyone who isn't privileged is uneducated and hungry?
> 
> The "uneducated and poor" do hare coursing . Its illegal too .


Many people in the EU hunt to eat because they aren't the privileged. Many people go on hunts to get access to other facilities, I know many who aren't privileged,
Many Eastern Europeans see animals in a very different way to us. A Bulgarian I worked with a few years ago, had very upsetting views on other living beings.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I find this patronising , Anyone who isn't privileged is uneducated and hungry?
> 
> The "uneducated and poor" do hare coursing . Its illegal too .


The point which you try to twist that the privileged who go fox hunting or trophy hunting are "educated" and never hungry and it is easier for me forgive the poor people hunting hares for food or those never educated that they just don't understand why they should not be cruel to animals.

Our " Etonians" don't have those excuses,and if I patronize poor, uneducated ERG members...Not Sorry!!!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> The point which you try to twist that the privileged who go fox hunting or trophy hunting are "educated" and never hungry and it is easier for me forgive the poor people hunting hares for food or those never educated that they just don't understand why they should not be cruel to animals.


OMG do you really mean this?
How do you know who goes hunting, what you read on twitter?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Many people in the EU hunt to eat because they aren't the privileged. Many people go on hunts to get access to other facilities, I know many who aren't privileged,
> Many Eastern Europeans see animals in a very different way to us. A Bulgarian I worked with a few years ago, had very upsetting views on other living beings.


This is what I mean: but how the " upper classes " can excuse themselves?

Lived in Bulgaria on research project, among small villages and never saw such terrible animal abuse as in Spain.

Many "Western European" nations are much worse in that respect.

Talking about Brexit - how Yellowhammer will affect our animals and huge costs of Brexit will affect the budget for protection of wildlife etc?

Really anyone is thinking that ERG will go Green?

Money talks and goodbye green belts if new expensive developments are to be built?

Oh, and BoJo will follow his American Idol, none of them too bothered about some fake news like climate change.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> OMG do you really mean this?
> How do you know who goes hunting, what you read on twitter?


Poor unemployed folk who have horses and packs of foxhounds ... or it is fake news?

Or if to go by who in Parliament voted for fox hunting...


----------



## Elles

Yellowhammer won’t affect anything. It was a report on imagined worst case scenarios to ensure none of it ever happens and that we and Europe are prepared to leave the Eu with no deal and take advantage of Brexit benefits, not worrying about paperwork and queues.


----------



## Elles

When I went hunting it wasn’t on my horse and I earned peanuts. People could also rent horses to go hunting, or hunt on hired horses when on holiday in Ireland. What has hunting got to do with Brexit? If you want to go hunting, you can probably still hire a horse in France if you want to. It’s now banned over here, because the people voted to ban it.

Just like we’ve left the Eu because the people voted to leave it.

Oh wait..


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> The point which you try to twist that the privileged who go fox hunting or trophy hunting are "educated" and never hungry and it is easier for me forgive the poor people hunting hares for food or those never educated that they just don't understand why they should not be cruel to animals.
> 
> Our " Etonians" don't have those excuses,and if I patronize poor, uneducated ERG members...Not Sorry!!!


Im not twisting anything. Maybe you should do your research before you start accusing me of this.
Hare coursing isnt to do with hungry people catching hares to eat . Its to train their greyhounds for greyhound racing. They catch the hares first and then release them for the greyhounds to run after.

All this carp about Etonions hunting . All sorts of people went hunting. Anyone who can afford a horse. That include working class and middle class.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Im not twisting anything. Maybe you should do your research before you start accusing me of this.
> Hare coursing isnt to do with hungry people catching hares to eat . Its to train their greyhounds for greyhound racing. They catch the hares first and then release them for the greyhounds to run after.
> 
> All this carp about Etonions hunting . All sorts of people went hunting. Anyone who can afford a horse. That include working class and middle class.


I quite understand totally the reasons people are against fox hunting and why they should be. Be against fox hunting for genuine reasons related to animal welfare, not the imagined social class of those involved in it.  Don't make excuses over real animal cruelty, because you think the people involved are poor and don't know it's cruel. We live in the U.K. there are no excuses.


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted- revealed to be fake.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I find this patronising , Anyone who isn't privileged is uneducated and hungry?
> 
> The "uneducated and poor" do hare coursing . Its illegal too .


What about Greyhound racing which one could say has always been the traditional sport of the working class as is pigeon racing?

Whilst neither of these sports are illegal there have been questions and concerns about the animals welfare.

In the case of Greyhounds look how how many PF members own dogs who are no longer fit for purpose.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-greyhound-racing-after-1000-deaths-in-a-year

*Charities call for end to greyhound racing after 1,000 deaths in a year*


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> The point which you try to twist that the privileged who go fox hunting or trophy hunting are "educated" and never hungry and it is easier for me forgive the poor people hunting hares for food or those never educated that they just don't understand why they should not be cruel to animals.
> 
> Our " Etonians" don't have those excuses,and if I patronize poor, uneducated ERG members...Not Sorry!!!


Just because you're "upper class and privileged" doesn't mean you're educated. 

And just because you haven't been to Eton or Harrow doesn't mean you're uneducated.


----------



## Lurcherlad

cba


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yellowhammer won't affect anything. It was a report on imagined worst case scenarios to ensure none of it ever happens and that we and Europe are prepared to leave the Eu with no deal and take advantage of Brexit benefits, not worrying about paperwork and queues.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/yellowhammer-is-yet-another-part-of-project-fear/

*Yellowhammer is yet another example of Project Fear*


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Deleted- revealed to be fake.


Just shows how gullible you are because when you posted it you obviously believed it to be true


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Yes !
> 
> It looks to me like the article is taking a pop at Christianity.


Sorry if I'm boring you but just seen the review of one of the books and authors mentioned and thought you might be interested in reading it!

The books expensive but I think I might indulge myself and buy it for some serious winter reading!

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyl...tern-mind-by-tom-holland-review-a4234891.html

*Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind by Tom Holland - review*


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum Thanks .  Enjoy the book . I'm behind with my dog books . I dont seem to have the concentration anymore. I can just about manage a web page.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> the traditional sport of the working class as is pigeon racing?


Except that the Queen has a loft of racing pigeons, so type-casting people doesn't always work. Not all Etonians go hunting, not all pigeon fanciers go to a working men's club every evening or play darts - I doubt the Queen does.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Just because you're "upper class and privileged" doesn't mean you're educated.
> 
> And just because you haven't been to Eton or Harrow doesn't mean you're uneducated


No, there are opportunities for many now who are determined to succeed:

*''Oxford University's intake of new students this autumn will have the highest proportion of state school pupils for at least 40 years.*

*The university has offered 59.2% of places to pupils from state schools, up from 55.6% of places taken last year.''*


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Except that the Queen has a loft of racing pigeons, so type-casting people doesn't always work. Not all Etonians go hunting, not all pigeon fanciers go to a working men's club every evening or play darts - I doubt the Queen does.


Ive seen the Queen a few times at the Royal Windsor Horse show , She shows her ponies in the Mountain and Moorland.
The Queen and the council house kid a few yards a part watching and sharing an interest .


----------



## kimthecat

This was a few years ago .


----------



## Magyarmum

I'd love to be a fly on the wall!

https://www.cityam.com/boris-johnso..._source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campa

*Boris Johnson to meet European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker for Brexit talks*


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Ive seen the Queen a few times at the Royal Windsor Horse show , She shows her ponies in the Mountain and Moorland.
> The Queen and the council house kid a few yards a part watching and sharing an interest .


Yep. I've seen her at the races and an agricultural show . Made the Queen mum wait while I passed at Kempton.

The Queen mum stopping to allow a council house kid to pass


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Yep. I've seen her at the races and an agricultural show . Made the Queen mum wait while I passed at Kempton.
> 
> The Queen mum stopping to allow a council house kid to pass


I was presented to the Queen in 1995 when she visited the Charity I worked for in South Africa.

What a lovely lady!

Mind you I was too busy chatting up a rather dishy equerry that accompanied her so can't say I was taking too much notice of her! :Shamefullyembarrased:Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/yellowhammer-is-yet-another-part-of-project-fear/
> 
> *Yellowhammer is yet another example of Project Fear*


Funny that is was put together by ERG and kept secret???


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190822/pe...for-travel-between-france-and-uk-after-brexit


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Yep. I've seen her at the races and an agricultural show . Made the Queen mum wait while I passed at Kempton.
> 
> The Queen mum stopping to allow a council house kid to pass


Thats something ! 
Apologies for going OT but I saw Princess diana coffin when they came through northolt RAF , back from france , Charles and her sisters were in another car .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Thats something !
> Apologies for going OT but I saw Princess diana coffin when they came through northolt RAF , back from france , Charles and her sisters were in another car .


I'm glad I didn't. I would have been quite upset. I think she was a huge loss.


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I'm glad I didn't. I would have been quite upset. I think she was a huge loss.


I loved the way she gave the Royal family the runaround.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I'm glad I didn't. I would have been quite upset. I think she was a huge loss.


I still have doubts about how she died.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that is was put together by ERG and kept secret???


Seeing that I read about Operation Yellowhammer in March this year it obviously wasn't a well kept secret.

And I stand to be corrected but I can't find any evidence the ERG had anything to do with it

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-no-deal-brexit-begin-to-be-put-into-action

*UK's emergency plans for no-deal Brexit begin to be put into action*

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/

*Operation Yellowhammer: what are the Government's emergency plans for a no-deal Brexit and how would they work?*


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that is was put together by ERG and kept secret???


It's a five page document that was imagined by a few people who were told to go away and make it up when TM was in charge. They didn't even ask the ports before they came up with 2-3 days delay. The port authorities in both the U.K. and France have said it's not going to happen. If a Brexiter told a bunch of brexiters to go away and make up a bunch of scenarios about what might happen if the Eu became populist, fully protectionist, kept all the money to fund an army and closed its borders would you think it was going to happen?


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 416392
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20190822/pe...for-travel-between-france-and-uk-after-brexit


Won't affect me.

We holiday in UK


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Seeing that I read about Operation Yellowhammer in March this year it obviously wasn't a well kept secret.
> 
> And I stand to be corrected but I can't find any evidence the ERG had anything to do with it
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-no-deal-brexit-begin-to-be-put-into-action
> 
> *UK's emergency plans for no-deal Brexit begin to be put into action*
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/
> 
> *Operation Yellowhammer: what are the Government's emergency plans for a no-deal Brexit and how would they work?*


ERG is behind No Deal Brexit?

If ERG


Elles said:


> It's a five page document that was imagined by a few people who were told to go away and make it up when TM was in charge. They didn't even ask the ports before they came up with 2-3 days delay. The port authorities in both the U.K. and France have said it's not going to happen. If a Brexiter told a bunch of brexiters to go away and make up a bunch of scenarios about what might happen if the Eu became populist, fully protectionist, kept all the money to fund an army and closed its borders would you think it was going to happen?


oh, it will be all fine and dandy... BoJo said so himself!!!

Really nothing to worry about.

Spain will fall to our feet and there be no queues or delays neither here nor in UK.

I needn't spend a fortune to stock up on meds for Garfield and Scrip...

After twenty years in frontier queues I might be an expert on it... but the good thing is we need no experts... now more than ever we don't!!!!


----------



## rona

Lurcherlad said:


> Won't affect me.
> 
> We holiday in UK


It's about the same as now. I can't for the life of me see why it would be any different


----------



## Elles

Trouble is the more they lie, exaggerate and fearmonger, the more they lose credibility. If we leave on the 31st October the Conservatives will be in power for the next 50 years, when all the fearmongering predictions don’t happen and remainers realise they’ve been duped by a bunch of people who benefit directly from being in the Eu lying and exaggerating to frighten them into supporting their cause. If there are genuine reasons to remain in the Eu and see it prosper and grow, no one is mentioning them. Just yelling about the apocalypse and quoting a document in a way they know to be false, or are too stupid to know. Either way, their shenanigans could very easily backfire.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> It's about the same as now. I can't for the life of me see why it would be any different


What about those who need to go to EU?

I think ERG has the same logic... No Deal will not affect them, on contrary they will gain!

So who cares about small businesses, state health care or state education?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> What about those who need to go to EU?


It can take up to a month now, so no different

We were talking about pet passports


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> ERG is behind No Deal Brexit?
> 
> If ERG
> 
> oh, it will be all fine and dandy... BoJo said so himself!!!
> 
> Really nothing to worry about.
> 
> Spain will fall to our feet and there be no queues or delays neither here nor in UK.
> 
> I needn't spend a fortune to stock up on meds for Garfield and Scrip...
> 
> After twenty years in frontier queues I might be an expert on it... but the good thing is we need no experts... now more than ever we don't!!!!


Where in Yellowhammer does it mention queues at the Gib border? It's talking about Kent as a carpark. Spain has created queues at Gib when we're in the Eu. You're taking an old Gove quote out of context again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Trouble is the more they lie, exaggerate and fearmonger, the more they lose credibility. If we leave on the 31st October the Conservatives will be in power for the next 50 years, when all the fearmongering predictions don't happen and remainers realise they've been duped by a bunch of people who benefit directly from being in the Eu lying and exaggerating to frighten them into supporting their cause. If there are genuine reasons to remain in the Eu and see it prosper and grow, no one is mentioning them. Just yelling about the apocalypse and quoting a document in a way they know to be false, or are too stupid to know. Either way, their shenanigans could very easily backfire.


The No Deal will push us towards USA , Russia and China.

Grrrreat.
Isn't it a good reason not to go there?

Or anyone here thinks we will dictate the terms to them and get fantastic new deal because Trump said so?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Where in Yellowhammer does it mention queues at the Gib border? It's talking about Kent as a carpark. Spain has created queues at Gib when we're in the Eu. You're taking an old Gove quote out of context again.


I refer to queues.


----------



## Elles

The Eu is pushing towards USA and China faster than we are.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> I refer to queues.


You're in a unique position on the forum, living in Gibraltar. I don't think anyone else does. My son and wife and their family in Gibraltar don't seem nearly as worried as you are. They have concerns of course, but they aren't panicking about anything and seem to think it will mostly be the same regardless of what happens and that any necessary adjustments will be made.

Spain has caused queues a number of times before and probably will again. I was reading an article that said 44 people were unemployed for part of the year in Gibraltar in 2018, so it does seem work isn't a problem. Picardo said that if no deal brexit happens they are ready for it, though of course they'd prefer a deal. The Eu want your passport stamped, but Spain and Britain are currently negotiating to make border crossings at Gib faster and more efficient.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> What about those who need to go to EU?
> 
> I think ERG has the same logic... No Deal will not affect them, on contrary they will gain!
> 
> So who cares about small businesses, state health care or state education?


Our governments care about our small businesses, state health care and state education? The Eu have nothing to do with it?


----------



## KittenKong

Oh yes, even with a deal you need to be ready for after the transition period. If the UK government continue the hostile environment towards nationals from other EU countries I suspect turbulent times ahead.

All because Britain doesn't like Johnny Foriegner.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190828/updated-no-deal-checklist-for-britons-in-france


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> Won't affect me.
> 
> We holiday in UK


That's a bit selfish isn't it? I am thinking of UK citizens living in other EU countries that might have to return to the UK for whatever reason. Some relatives of mine have recently done so, but were able to bring their cat over using the existing EU pet passport.

I can imagine many pets will end up abandoned as a result.

It's not their fault


----------



## KittenKong

Via a FT article:

“French customs officials chose trucks carrying Airbus wing parts and baby equipment imported from the UK for special inspections on Thursday in a rehearsal for a possible no-deal Brexit that could disrupt cross-Channel trade.
“We are preparing as if there is no deal,” said Gérald Darmanin, the French budget minister responsible for customs, as the Brittany Ferries vessel Mont St Michel from Portsmouth disgorged trucks and holidaymakers’ cars and caravans on to the Ouistreham dock in the early morning drizzle.
“If there’s a deal we’ll adjust and it’ll be a little easier. And if there’s no deal that means Great Britain for us is a market equivalent to South Africa.”
France says a no-deal Brexit as early as October 31 is now the most likely outcome despite more than two years of EU-UK negotiations, and it has been accelerating preparations with manufacturers, truckers and logistics groups to handle the nearly 5m truck movements a year between French ports and the UK — 80 per cent of them from other EU countries such as Germany and Spain.
Without a Brexit deal, trade from the UK that has hitherto flowed unhindered across the EU’s single market will be subject to customs tariffs and safety inspections, and veterinary controls.
On Wednesday the UK government bowed to pressure from parliament to disclose controversial documents setting out its “worst-case scenario” in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
According to the government’s Operation Yellowhammer plan France could potentially impose EU mandatory controls on goods coming into Dover on day one, cutting the flow of lorries going across the Channel by 40-60 per cent and causing severe disruption for up to three months. 
France is hiring and training an extra 700 customs officers and has spent €40m on a new IT system and facilities for handling and inspecting trucks in ports such as Calais at the French end of the Channel tunnel.
The Caen rehearsal — at a port with only three ferry sailings a day to the British city of Portsmouth — is the first of a series of tests to be held in French ports in the coming weeks, including the biggest freight terminal at the mouth of the Channel tunnel in Calais.
During Thursday’s rehearsal in Normandy, customs officers divided vehicles into “green” for those with advance online clearance and “orange” for those requiring inspections of their documents or cargo.
Two trucks with Airbus wing parts made in the UK and destined for the company’s assembly plants in Toulouse, and one lorry with Tommee-Tippee babies’ dummies and other baby equipment from UK company Mayborn, were designated orange.
“Either the British will stay within the norms because until now they are supposed to manufacture within EU norms, or they will adopt rules that are much more flexible and then we will inspect them as if they were Chinese or American products,” said a customs officer named Nicole, as she examined the baby dummies taken from a box in the lorry operated by the transportation group XPO Logistics.
“They will be rigorously treated in the same manner as a ‘third country’ not in the EU,” she added, declining to give her family name. “There’s no preferential treatment if it’s a really hard Brexit.”
Airbus has repeatedly warned of the risks of Brexit, and chief executive Guillaume Faury said at the end of July that it was “obvious” no-deal was likely.
French president Emmanuel Macron and his ministers have insisted they want to maintain good relations with the UK after Brexit, whether it is hard or soft, but their immediate priority is to protect from disruption the 100,000 French companies that they estimate trade with the UK.
Mr Darmanin said there would be “no traffic jams” on the French side because the French authorities were prepared for Brexit.
But he added: “It’s obvious that Brexit is not the same as no Brexit. If you separate from your partner, your wife, your husband, it’s not the same as when you are married . . . Now the job of the French government, at the request of the French president, is that it should be a divorce with as little pain as possible.””


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Via a FT article:
> 
> "French customs officials chose trucks carrying Airbus wing parts and baby equipment imported from the UK for special inspections on Thursday in a rehearsal for a possible no-deal Brexit that could disrupt cross-Channel trade.
> "We are preparing as if there is no deal," said Gérald Darmanin, the French budget minister responsible for customs, as the Brittany Ferries vessel Mont St Michel from Portsmouth disgorged trucks and holidaymakers' cars and caravans on to the Ouistreham dock in the early morning drizzle.
> "If there's a deal we'll adjust and it'll be a little easier. And if there's no deal that means Great Britain for us is a market equivalent to South Africa."
> France says a no-deal Brexit as early as October 31 is now the most likely outcome despite more than two years of EU-UK negotiations, and it has been accelerating preparations with manufacturers, truckers and logistics groups to handle the nearly 5m truck movements a year between French ports and the UK - 80 per cent of them from other EU countries such as Germany and Spain.
> Without a Brexit deal, trade from the UK that has hitherto flowed unhindered across the EU's single market will be subject to customs tariffs and safety inspections, and veterinary controls.
> On Wednesday the UK government bowed to pressure from parliament to disclose controversial documents setting out its "worst-case scenario" in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
> According to the government's Operation Yellowhammer plan France could potentially impose EU mandatory controls on goods coming into Dover on day one, cutting the flow of lorries going across the Channel by 40-60 per cent and causing severe disruption for up to three months.
> France is hiring and training an extra 700 customs officers and has spent €40m on a new IT system and facilities for handling and inspecting trucks in ports such as Calais at the French end of the Channel tunnel.
> The Caen rehearsal - at a port with only three ferry sailings a day to the British city of Portsmouth - is the first of a series of tests to be held in French ports in the coming weeks, including the biggest freight terminal at the mouth of the Channel tunnel in Calais.
> During Thursday's rehearsal in Normandy, customs officers divided vehicles into "green" for those with advance online clearance and "orange" for those requiring inspections of their documents or cargo.
> Two trucks with Airbus wing parts made in the UK and destined for the company's assembly plants in Toulouse, and one lorry with Tommee-Tippee babies' dummies and other baby equipment from UK company Mayborn, were designated orange.
> "Either the British will stay within the norms because until now they are supposed to manufacture within EU norms, or they will adopt rules that are much more flexible and then we will inspect them as if they were Chinese or American products," said a customs officer named Nicole, as she examined the baby dummies taken from a box in the lorry operated by the transportation group XPO Logistics.
> "They will be rigorously treated in the same manner as a 'third country' not in the EU," she added, declining to give her family name. "There's no preferential treatment if it's a really hard Brexit."
> Airbus has repeatedly warned of the risks of Brexit, and chief executive Guillaume Faury said at the end of July that it was "obvious" no-deal was likely.
> French president Emmanuel Macron and his ministers have insisted they want to maintain good relations with the UK after Brexit, whether it is hard or soft, but their immediate priority is to protect from disruption the 100,000 French companies that they estimate trade with the UK.
> Mr Darmanin said there would be "no traffic jams" on the French side because the French authorities were prepared for Brexit.
> But he added: "It's obvious that Brexit is not the same as no Brexit. If you separate from your partner, your wife, your husband, it's not the same as when you are married . . . Now the job of the French government, at the request of the French president, is that it should be a divorce with as little pain as possible.""


https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/other-eu-countries-preparations-no-deal

Other EU countries' preparations for no deal

https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/05...r-states-make-preparations-for-no-deal-brexit

European Union member states make preparations for No Deal Brexit


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> That's a bit selfish isn't it? I am thinking of UK citizens living in other EU countries that might have to return to the UK for whatever reason. Some relatives of mine have recently done so, but were able to bring their cat over using the existing EU pet passport.
> 
> I can imagine many pets will end up abandoned as a result.
> 
> It's not their fault


As we're still part of the EU the EU Pet Passport is still valid

Brexit or not, there will always be those who abandon their pets when moving. Two of my son's dogs were found in an empty house without food and water after their owners returned to France without them. Both dogs were starving having been locked inside for around two weeks!


----------



## Guest

Nothing has changed for British Citizens yet regarding travel and pet passports and traffic of goods as you are still in the European Union.

I see Johnson is having a working lunch/dinner with Junker on Monday. Ireland has said nothing has changed their end regarding an alternative solution to the backstop.


----------



## Guest

I read that David Cameron (The man who put the referendum to the United Kingdom people) has said a second referendum must not be ruled out. Wasn't he the one who said that this was a once in a generation referendum and there wouldn't be another one or something like that. The United Kingdom Government and Parliament have not yet delivered on the result of the first referendum. The whole thing is confusing now.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> That's a bit selfish isn't it? I am thinking of UK citizens living in other EU countries that might have to return to the UK for whatever reason. Some relatives of mine have recently done so, but were able to bring their cat over using the existing EU pet passport.
> 
> I can imagine many pets will end up abandoned as a result.
> 
> It's not their fault


It was tongue in cheek 

Now I remember why I don't usually post on this thread - all doom and gloom.

I'll get me coat .......


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I'd love to be a fly on the wall!


Oh yes! Me too.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> Now I remember why I don't usually post on this thread - all doom and gloom.


There is that, of course, but to be honest, the whole Brexit pantomime has now become so totally confusing that I don't have a clue what is happening . . . and I am beginning not to care. If there were to be a second referendum, I think I really would join the ranks of the ''can't be arsed to vote'' brigade.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Wasn't he the one who said that this was a once in a generation referendum


Yes: that is exactly what he said . . . a ''once in a generation decision'', yet within days of the (unexpected) result, some people were screaming for a second one. And Cameron himself saying ''a second one should not be ruled out''.


----------



## Guest

If they do, do a second referendum many people would find it hard to trust in the UK Government and UK Parliament ever again to honour any referendum result.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, even with a deal you need to be ready for after the transition period. If the UK government continue the hostile environment towards nationals from other EU countries I suspect turbulent times ahead.
> 
> All because Britain doesn't like Johnny Foriegner.
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20190828/updated-no-deal-checklist-for-britons-in-france
> 
> View attachment 416421


As someone who has lived for 7 years in a French Overseas Department and who's family has had a business there for over 20 years, with a few exceptions the article only advises what any sensible non French resident should do to be totally legal in the country.

Very little if anything to do with Brexit and as you put it "Britain's dislike of Johnny foreigner"!

The problem with France is that it's not obligatory to obtain a "carte de sejour" and many people just don't bother. French bureaucracy is the pits anyway and can take months and sometimes years to wade through!


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 416392
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20190822/pe...for-travel-between-france-and-uk-after-brexit


I saw you post something similar the other day and wanted to reply but forgot due to being busy.

These are the rules for countries outside of the European Union travelling with pets to countries within the European Union. Rabies jab, blood tests, health certificate (fitness to travel), pet passport and vaccinations must be up to date etc. The United Kingdom also has these rules as it is in the European Union.

The United Kingdom is currently a member of the European Union so nothing has changed yet.

Prepare now if you wish to take your pet on a holiday or to move to Europe so you are ready for after Brexit happens (if it happens).


----------



## Jonescat

To be fair to Cameron (which I find quite hard), what he actually said about a second referendum ( according to the BBC) was

"I don't think you can rule it out because we're stuck," he said. "I'm not saying one will happen or should happen. I'm just saying that you can't rule things out right now because you've got to find some way of unblocking the blockage."

And we are stuck, and with the current situation you can't rule anything out so I don't see it as controversial. What is a bit more interesting is the timing of his push for book sales.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I saw you post something similar the other day and wanted to reply but forgot due to being busy.
> 
> These are the rules for countries outside of the European Union travelling with pets to countries within the European Union. Rabies jab, blood tests, health certificate (fitness to travel), pet passport and vaccinations must be up to date etc. The United Kingdom also has these rules as it is in the European Union.
> 
> The United Kingdom is currently a member of the European Union so nothing has changed yet.
> 
> Prepare now if you wish to take your pet on a holiday or to move to Europe so you are ready for after Brexit happens (if it happens).


My dogs and late cat have(had) Hungarian EU Pet Passports and have travelled to the UK a couple of times. Grisha having been born in, and imported from Russia, a non EU country has an International Certificate of Vaccination which I'll get changed to a pet passport next month when we go to get Gwylim's annual Rabies jab.

I'm well aware there will be changes once the UK leaves the EU, but the point I was making was that whilst one has to think ahead, to date we are still EU member and the EU Pet Passport is still valid!

Who knows, with everything in flux it could be that even if we leave, the UK Pet Passport could still be deemed valid throughout the EU, After all UK pets aren't suddenly going to develop Rabies, tapeworm and other dreaded lurgies because of Brexit!


----------



## Guest

My question is, if there was another referendum and the United Kingdom voted leave again would the United Kingdom Parliament do what they done this time, that being trying to stop the United Kingdom leaving by blocking it and not honouring the referendum result even though they voted overwhelmingly themselves to trigger article 50? They are certainly doing everything in the United Kingdoms Parliament to stop Brexit from happening and in the process dug themselves into a hole. It pretty much seems it is the United Kingdom Parliament against the United Kingdom people.


----------



## Jonescat

That is what Johnson and the rest want you to believe. Parliament is as split as the country is but it is not against the people. It is against no deal, it is against presidential styles of behaviour and it doesn't seem to like either the PM or his advisor. Deal or no deal was not on the ballot paper so I don't think that you can argue there is a mandate either way. 

If there was a second referendum with the same result but no election to change the people in parliament then of course we carry on as now. 

The problem with an election before Brexit is sorted is that it will become a second referendum and few votes will pay any attention to the rest of the manifestos. You could put anything you liked in your manifesto and people would still mostly vote on your Brexit position.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> It pretty much seems it is the United Kingdom Parliament against the United Kingdom people.


Johnson/Cummings will be so happy that at least one of their loyal subjects are getting the mandate


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> My question is, if there was another referendum and the United Kingdom voted leave again would the United Kingdom Parliament do what they done this time, that being trying to stop the United Kingdom leaving by blocking it and not honouring the referendum result even though they voted overwhelmingly themselves to trigger article 50? They are certainly doing everything in the United Kingdoms Parliament to stop Brexit from happening and in the process dug themselves into a hole. It pretty much seems it is the United Kingdom Parliament against the United Kingdom people.


And, conversely: if Remain were to win by the same small majority that Brexit won in 2016, would all the Leavers feel similarly inclined to start hissing and booing until they got a_ third_ referendum? This could go on for ever, amazing though it seems!


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> And, conversely: if Remain were to win by the same small majority that Brexit won in 2016, would all the Leavers feel similarly inclined to start hissing and booing until they got a_ third_ referendum? This could go on for ever, amazing though it seems!


If I was allowed to vote in the referendum of 2016 I would have voted remain myself, but being a Dutch citizen now I was not allowed.


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Johnson/Cummings will be so happy that at least one of their loyal subjects are getting the mandate


If I was allowed to vote in the referendum of 2016 I would have voted remain. If you are going to have a referendum the result should be respected not blocked. I did not get to vote because life took me down a differrent route and I am no longer a United Kingdom Citizen (I live in the Netherlands by the way).


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> And, conversely: if Remain were to win by the same small majority that Brexit won in 2016, would all the Leavers feel similarly inclined to start hissing and booing until they got a_ third_ referendum? This could go on for ever, amazing though it seems!


Yes they would I`m sure, despite hearing many times that leave voters would have accepted the result had remain won I don't believe that for one second!


----------



## Guest

Remember the European Union is not throwing the United Kingdom out, the United Kingdom as a whole chose to leave in way of a referendum.

I don't think the United Kingdom would be allowed to carry on like this forever as it is harmful not just to the United Kingdom.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> If I was allowed to vote in the referendum of 2016 I would have voted remain. If you are going to have a referendum the result should be respected not blocked. I did not get to vote because life took me down a differrent route and I am no longer a United Kingdom Citizen (I live in the Netherlands by the way).


Leaving has been blocked by both remain and leave, leave means different things to different people. The ERG do not want a deal, other leave MPs do want a deal. They all feel they are right and The People voted their way despite having no idea if that is correct.


----------



## Elles

The one thing both sides agreed on was that Theresa May’s deal was unacceptable. The Eu liked it, our MPs didn’t. Even Remainers who tell us to trust the Eu and think they’re our friends didn’t like the arrangement around the backstop. 

The problem imo being that it was staying in, but without giving them a job, or any power. So the ERG voted against it, because obviously they want to leave the Eu and any withdrawal deal should mean leaving. 

The Remainers voted against it because it gave the Eu all of the power, even though the Eu said they wouldn’t use it and despite what Remainers say about the Eu, they don’t trust them that far. Plus it took away any chance they have of a nice job in the Eu. No representatives, no MEPs. You think they vote to stay in the Eu to benefit their constituents? As they’re trying their best to scare them into it using underhand tactics I doubt it. I’ll get my tinfoil hat, but I’ve stopped believing a word of it.


----------



## rona

3dogs2cats said:


> Yes they would I`m sure, despite hearing many times that leave voters would have accepted the result had remain won I don't believe that for one second!


I'm a staunch leave voter and I would have accepted the vote had it gone the other way. What I will not accept is other votes until we vote stay


----------



## JANICE199

*The first vote in my humble opinion was a waste of time and a con. There should have been a deal sorted out before the vote ever went to the people. If another vote is called for, i would want to know what the deal is before voting. *


----------



## Elles

JANICE199 said:


> *The first vote in my humble opinion was a waste of time and a con. There should have been a deal sorted out before the vote ever went to the people. If another vote is called for, i would want to know what the deal is before voting. *


Would it matter, wouldn't people who want to stay in the Eu vote remain regardless of any deal?


----------



## Magyarmum

JANICE199 said:


> *The first vote in my humble opinion was a waste of time and a con. There should have been a deal sorted out before the vote ever went to the people. If another vote is called for, i would want to know what the deal is before voting. *


How on earth would you manage to do that? 

A deal is only a deal if both parties agree

Which as far as I can see would mean going behind the UK populations back and having secret discussions with the EU before putting it to the vote? 

In other words presenting a fait accompli


----------



## Elles

I think if the vote had gone the other way, especially by a small margin, Farage would have campaigned for another. However he would be campaigning from the winner’s stance, ie Britain inside the Eu and not how it is now, where Remainers are campaigning from the loser’s stance ie also Britain inside the Eu.

We should have left the Eu, then Remainers begun their campaigns to take us back in. They’d even have a chance if the country ended up in the state they say they think it will. 

How would remainer’s feel if they’d won, but a Brexit government had taken us out anyway and manipulated and changed the law to do it?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> How would remainer's feel if they'd won, but a Brexit government had taken us out anyway and manipulated and changed the law to do it?


But they haven't changed the law to keep us in, they want to leave with a deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

*NEWS THUMP

Friday 13 September 2019 by John Fleming*

*God revealed as a Remainer after documents show concerted effort to stop Adam and Eve 'Leaving' garden of Eden*









*God has today been revealed a Remainer after rebellious government MPs published its hitherto secret "Eden Project" documents that clearly show the Almighty was against Adam and Eve leaving the garden of Eden.*

The documents reveal that, when given free will, Adam and Eve voted to leave the Garden of Eden, despite God's repeated warnings of bad health care and potentially severe fruit supply restrictions in the outside world.

One section of the document has Adam saying, "Look, the whole Union thing was getting too overbearing. You know what parents are like. You choose your friends; you can't choose your parents. God is - at heart - a bureaucrat, an unelected one at that, and he's in there for eternity. He has the definitive God Complex.

"He kept going on to myself and Eve with things like 'No man is an island entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent'. Well, apart from the clear sexism inherent in that statement, we went and asked Peter Noman of no fixed abode and he confirms he IS an island entire of himself and he thinks God is talking bollocks. And he is. He's a right Remoaner, that God. Moan moan moan."

When contacted for comment by reporters today, God responded: "Look. What can you do? I told them life outside the garden would be harder, but would they believe me? Or would they rather take the word of a snake who dismissed my warnings as 'Project Fear'.

"I gave them a choice and they went totally meshuggah, and that Eve - I mean, she was nothing but a spare rib, an afterthought - my mistake.

"She turned into a right shiksa. Her mother, my wife - rest her soul - was distraught. Distraught! What can you do? You try your best with your children and this is how it turns out! Next time, enough with the free will!"


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> But they haven't changed the law to keep us in, they want to leave with a deal.


But they rejected the deals.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> *NEWS THUMP
> 
> Friday 13 September 2019 by John Fleming*
> 
> *God revealed as a Remainer after documents show concerted effort to stop Adam and Eve 'Leaving' garden of Eden*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *God has today been revealed a Remainer after rebellious government MPs published its hitherto secret "Eden Project" documents that clearly show the Almighty was against Adam and Eve leaving the garden of Eden.*
> 
> The documents reveal that, when given free will, Adam and Eve voted to leave the Garden of Eden, despite God's repeated warnings of bad health care and potentially severe fruit supply restrictions in the outside world.
> 
> One section of the document has Adam saying, "Look, the whole Union thing was getting too overbearing. You know what parents are like. You choose your friends; you can't choose your parents. God is - at heart - a bureaucrat, an unelected one at that, and he's in there for eternity. He has the definitive God Complex.
> 
> "He kept going on to myself and Eve with things like 'No man is an island entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent'. Well, apart from the clear sexism inherent in that statement, we went and asked Peter Noman of no fixed abode and he confirms he IS an island entire of himself and he thinks God is talking bollocks. And he is. He's a right Remoaner, that God. Moan moan moan."
> 
> When contacted for comment by reporters today, God responded: "Look. What can you do? I told them life outside the garden would be harder, but would they believe me? Or would they rather take the word of a snake who dismissed my warnings as 'Project Fear'.
> 
> "I gave them a choice and they went totally meshuggah, and that Eve - I mean, she was nothing but a spare rib, an afterthought - my mistake.
> 
> "She turned into a right shiksa. Her mother, my wife - rest her soul - was distraught. Distraught! What can you do? You try your best with your children and this is how it turns out! Next time, enough with the free will!"


News Thump had to bring God into it :Headphone

:Angelic 
:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> But they rejected the deals.


The way it comes across is that the United Kingdom Parliament don't want a deal.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> The way it comes across is that the United Kingdom Parliament don't want a deal.


There's a great deal of internal politics going on at the expense of sorting this out


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> News Thump had to bring God into it :Headphone
> 
> :Angelic
> :Hilarious


Makes a refreshing change from Mussolini, Hitler, Mugabe or Idi Amin


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Makes a refreshing change from Mussolini, Hitler, Mugabe or Idi Amin


True.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> But they rejected the deals.


Well maybe they should get one that they will approve of, instead of the one May just kept fiddling with for years.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...for-eu-citizens-moving-to-the-uk-after-brexit

*No deal immigration arrangements for EU citizens arriving after Brexit*

https://www.gouvernement.fr/en/preparing-for-brexit

*Preparing for Brexit*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-brexit/no-deal-immigration-arrangements-for-
> *No deal immigration arrangements for EU citizens arriving after Brexit*


This link did not work for me. I got page not found.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> This link did not work for me. I got page not found.


I've altered it and it's working for me. Hope it does for you as well


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> I've altered it and it's working for me. Hope it does for you as well


Thank you, it is working fine now.


----------



## JANICE199

Magyarmum said:


> How on earth would you manage to do that?
> 
> A deal is only a deal if both parties agree
> 
> Which as far as I can see would mean going behind the UK populations back and having secret discussions with the EU before putting it to the vote?
> 
> In other words presenting a fait accompli


*So long as we get a deal, and people know what the deal is, then i see no problem with a 2nd vote.*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...for-eu-citizens-moving-to-the-uk-after-brexit
> 
> *No deal immigration arrangements for EU citizens arriving after Brexit*


Ok.
I am confused.
Irish citizens will be able to travel and work in the United Kingdom like they do now. For European Union citizens they will have to apply to work in the United Kingdom under a 36 months immigration status - European Temporary Leave to Remain (Euro TLR). The Republic of Ireland is in the European Union so this is what is confusing me. I know Ireland had special rules under a seperate common travel area agreement but this does not cover goods and services only people travelling to the United Kingdom and living here as well. Wouldn't this initially confuse United Kingdom Customs officials at the borders of the United Kingdom?

I read that nothing changes for people from other European Union countries to come on holiday to the United Kingdom for now until the United Kingdom changes this.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> But they haven't changed the law to keep us in, they want to leave with a deal.


If they wanted us to leave with a deal they would have voted in favour of one of Theresa May's deal. Some MPs did. Some of them though have actually admitted that they want to prevent our leaving the Eu at all costs, because they don't think it's in thei.. Britain's interest (ok, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) and will campaign to stay in, even if we have a second vote and even if Labour have agreed a better deal than TM got.

These are the same people who are changing the law to prevent our leaving on the 31st October, forcing an extension and making it law that they be permitted to vote on whether or not to accept the length of the extension that the Eu sets.

The law was that we leave on the 31st March with or without a deal and they signed up to it. They are now changing the law to suit their own agendas. Not to represent the people.

It seems crazy to me that a group of Remainers can change the law to suit themselves and then run the brexit government through the courts in case they don't comply, threatening to put the PM in prison. If the people had voted to stay in the Eu and Boris was taking us out regardless, then yes, even if I'd personally voted leave, I would support them in upholding the result and democracy, but the people didn't. The vote was to leave and we should have already left according to the referendum and article 50.

We don't actually need a withdrawal deal. In my opinion the follow up trade deals, which will be long term and set, are far more important than agreeing some kind of divorce settlement.

There is absolutely no point in holding a second referendum, as it would simply prove that referendums are pointless, the first one wasn't followed through and some MPs are already saying that they wouldn't follow through on a second, if the vote was still to leave. It's a waste of time, energy and money.


----------



## CollieSlave

Elles said:


> If they wanted us to leave with a deal they would have voted in favour of one of Theresa May's deal. Some MPs did. Some of them though have actually admitted that they want to prevent our leaving the Eu at all costs, because they don't think it's in thei.. Britain's interest (ok, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) and will campaign to stay in, even if we have a second vote and even if Labour have agreed a better deal than TM got.
> 
> *These are the same people who are changing the law to prevent our leaving on the 31st October, forcing an extension and making it law that they be permitted to vote on whether or not to accept the length of the extension that the Eu sets.
> 
> The law was that we leave on the 31st March with or without a deal and they signed up to it. They are now changing the law to suit their own agendas. Not to represent the people.*
> 
> It seems crazy to me that a group of Remainers can change the law to suit themselves and then run the brexit government through the courts in case they don't comply, threatening to put the PM in prison. If the people had voted to stay in the Eu and Boris was taking us out regardless, then yes, even if I'd personally voted leave, I would support them in upholding the result and democracy, but the people didn't. The vote was to leave and we should have already left according to the referendum and article 50.
> 
> We don't actually need a withdrawal deal. In my opinion the follow up trade deals, which will be long term and set, are far more important than agreeing some kind of divorce settlement.
> 
> There is absolutely no point in holding a second referendum, as it would simply prove that referendums are pointless, the first one wasn't followed through and some MPs are already saying that they wouldn't follow through on a second, if the vote was still to leave. It's a waste of time, energy and money.


"... to suit their own agendas. Not to represent the people." But the law has been changed simply because MPs do not trust the proven liar BoJo (said he wouldn't suspend Parliament and then, a couple of weeks later, does just that), and, arguably, representing the people by protecting them from the manipulations of BoJo and the likes of Rees Mogg!! We didn't leave on 31st March and now we have a whole new situation because we have a new PM who is widely distrusted - he was even sacked from his first job with The Times for lying!!! And BoJo is apparently prepared to IGNORE THE LAW by leaving on 31st October with NO DEAL if a deal is not in place. How can you trust a PM who is prepared to break the law of the country?? You may not like the law but it is there and should be respected!!


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Ok.
> I am confused.
> Irish citizens will be able to travel and work in the United Kingdom like they do now. For European Union citizens they will have to apply to work in the United Kingdom under a 36 months immigration status - European Temporary Leave to Remain (Euro TLR). The Republic of Ireland is in the European Union so this is what is confusing me. I know Ireland had special rules under a seperate common travel area agreement but this does not cover goods and services only people travelling to the United Kingdom and living here as well. Wouldn't this initially confuse United Kingdom Customs officials at the borders of the United Kingdom?
> 
> I read that nothing changes for people from other European Union countries to come on holiday to the United Kingdom for now until the United Kingdom changes this.


Do you mean goods and services specifically from Ireland or more generally from the whole of the EU?


----------



## Elles

CollieSlave said:


> "... to suit their own agendas. Not to represent the people." But the law has been changed simply because MPs do not trust the proven liar BoJo (said he wouldn't suspend Parliament and then, a couple of weeks later, does just that), and, arguably, representing the people by protecting them from the manipulations of BoJo and the likes of Rees Mogg!! We didn't leave on 31st March and now we have a whole new situation because we have a new PM who is widely distrusted - he was even sacked from his first job with The Times for lying!!! And BoJo is apparently prepared to IGNORE THE LAW by leaving on 31st October with NO DEAL if a deal is not in place. How can you trust a PM who is prepared to break the law of the country?? You may not like the law but it is there and should be respected!!


The law was that we left in March, with or without a deal. They may not have liked the law they signed up to, but it was there and should have been respected.

It wasn't and now they have a brexit PM who is prepared to leave without a deal, as should already have happened, they are rushing through new laws. Funny how these new laws are in place and judgements heard within days, when normally it takes months. Favourable Brexit rulings aren't heard nearly as quickly and have even been delayed and dismissed without hearing.

It is argued, including by top QCs, that the government acted illegally in the manner in which it has delayed brexit. Not quite so much fuss over that though, I wonder why?


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> leave voters would have accepted the result


To be honest, I think Leavers would have been more inclined to accept the result (had Remain won) simply because they never really thought they had a cat in Hell's chance of winning anyway, so would not have been surprised at the result; whereas, most Remainers - most people actually - were sure that Remain would win, and the shock when they did not was palpable. Until the end of the night it looked like Remain had won: even Nigel Farage, at about 4 a.m, said ''It looks as tho' they have just edged us'', and then a couple of hours later was seen to be drinking a celebratory pint. My son reckoned that when he went to work next day the faces were so miserable that he seriously thought that someone had died.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well maybe they should get one that they will approve of, instead of the one May just kept fiddling with for years.


That was of course the idea. The ERG didn't want the backstop and Labour didn't like it as they were no provisions to preserve existing EU employee rights regulations.

Yet, they still bleat on about getting a deal !!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> To be honest, I think Leavers would have been more inclined to accept the result (had Remain won) simply because they never really thought they had a cat in Hell's chance of winning anyway, so would not have been surprised at the result; whereas, most Remainers - most people actually - were sure that Remain would win, and the shock when they did not was palpable. Until the end of the night it looked like Remain had won: even Nigel Farage, at about 4 a.m, said ''It looks as tho' they have just edged us'', and then a couple of hours later was seen to be drinking a celebratory pint. My son reckoned that when he went to work next day the faces were so miserable that he seriously thought that someone had died.


You forget the horrified look on Johnson and Gove's faces. They "won" but looked incredibly unhappy, as if to say, "My God, what have we done?"

Must I also remind you Mr Farage said a remain victory of 52% over 48% would be unfinished business? So no, I doubt very much most Leave voters would have sat back and accepted the vote, especially with the mass publicity Farage gets from the media campaigning for another say, that would have built up support.

After all, many never accepted the decisive 1975 result did they. The irony to that is Michael Foot's Labour party of 1982/3 offered a referendum on EEC membership, but that didn't bother most people who were still elated over the previously unpopular Thatcher winning a war for Britain over an area few had even heard of before the crisis.

And no one complained that the patriotic spectacle of the 2012 London Olympics was somehow less British through being in the EU.

The media really have a lot to answer for.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Magyarmum said:


> How on earth would you manage to do that?
> 
> A deal is only a deal if both parties agree
> 
> Which as far as I can see would mean going behind the UK populations back and having secret discussions with the EU before putting it to the vote?
> 
> In other words presenting a fait accompli


That's what happens in eu parliament now surely?

We (the public) aren't party to the negotiations and the power is in the hands of the politicians and they decide on our behalf - like it or lump it.

That's why the Leave vote won in the first place. The majority of us aren't happy how eu is run or how it affects us.

Since the referendum I'm less happy with eu and if the only way to get out is without a deal, so be it.

Then we can get things sorted.

In 1973 we accepted the Join vote......to join the Common Market - nothing like that now.


----------



## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> That's what happens in eu parliament now surely?
> 
> We (the public) aren't party to the negotiations and the power is in the hands of the politicians and they decide on our behalf - like it or lump it.
> 
> That's why the Leave vote won in the first place. The majority of us aren't happy how eu is run or how it affects us.
> 
> Since the referendum I'm less happy with eu and if the only way to get out is without a deal, so be it.
> 
> Then we can get things sorted.
> 
> In 1973 we accepted the Join vote......to join the Common Market - nothing like that now.


It became a damn sight better as far as I'm concerned. Each to their own.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> That was of course the idea. The ERG didn't want the backstop and Labour didn't like it as they were no provisions to preserve existing EU employee rights regulations.
> 
> Yet, they still bleat on about getting a deal !!!!


But TM wasted over two years before even thinking of having a vote in Parliament and wouldn't disuse it with other parties, she draw her red line and that was that, and at the last minute she had to have a vote and of cause no one voted for it because no one was include in the decisions and didn't agree with them.


----------



## KittenKong

What next? Will he believe he's the Bionic Man?

About as laughable as the, "Titanic Success".

What an embarrassment.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> But TM wasted over two years before even thinking of having a vote in Parliament and wouldn't disuse it with other parties, she draw her red line and that was that, and at the last minute she had to have a vote and of cause no one voted for it because no one was include in the decisions and didn't agree with them.


Getting a deal would have been comparatively easy had she opted for something like the EEA + CU. No Irish border issues for one thing.

But May insisted on leaving the SM as FoM is a condition of that. Sadly, Labour also adopted similar as part of their own Brexit pledge.

Regardless, the UK is badly split and is destined for destruction as it stands.

Recent events only fuel campaigns such as the reunification of Ireland and for Scottish independence that would probably have remained below the surface rather than at the forefront otherwise.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> And no one complained that the patriotic spectacle of the 2012 London Olympics was somehow less British through being in the EU.


I doubt we would have seen scenes like this at the Proms had the EU Ref. never happened either!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets face it, the leaving process should have been a cross party discussion from the very start, it should never have been just the PM and her cabinet working on it, if she had we wouldn't be in this mess.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I doubt we would have seen scenes like this at the Proms had the EU Ref. never happened either!
> View attachment 416633
> View attachment 416635


We watched on BBC last night and was amazed how many Euro flags were there and so many were hanging over the balconies.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> You forget the horrified look on Johnson and Gove's faces. They "won" but looked incredibly unhappy, as if to say, "My God, what have we done?"
> 
> Must I also remind you Mr Farage said a remain victory of 52% over 48% would be unfinished business? So no, I doubt very much most Leave voters would have sat back and accepted the vote, especially with the mass publicity Farage gets from the media campaigning for another say, that would have built up support.
> 
> After all, many never accepted the decisive 1975 result did they. The irony to that is Michael Foot's Labour party of 1982/3 offered a referendum on EEC membership, but that didn't bother most people who were still elated over the previously unpopular Thatcher winning a war for Britain over an area few had even heard of before the crisis.
> 
> And no one complained that the patriotic spectacle of the 2012 London Olympics was somehow less British through being in the EU.
> 
> The media really have a lot to answer for.


On the Friday morning after the referendum I remember someone posting on here that the remainers on TV were in denial as they kept saying things wouldn't change, actually it was the leavers in the tv studio that kept repeating `nothing will change once we leave the EU` They did indeed look rather horrified!


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> But TM wasted over two years before even thinking of having a vote in Parliament and wouldn't disuse it with other parties, she draw her red line and that was that, and at the last minute she had to have a vote and of cause no one voted for it because no one was include in the decisions and didn't agree with them.


I don't trust her, she dragged it out as long as possible, then she and the Eu came up with a deal that few would agree with, even in her own party. Didn't she speak to anyone else? I don't believe she didn't. She knew they wouldn't vote for it, so what was her agenda? Delay, delay, stay? When she she said "No deal is better than a bad deal" did she actually mean staying in?

Cross party might have made no difference. There could be too many in the commons who want to stay in the Eu and will vote anything down. At least 2 have gone on tv and said so. The Lib Dems and Change U.K. have MPs who want to remain, won't accept a deal and are working on staying in. How many more are there?

The Proms? People and their friends who are entitled to Eu money and are spreading scare stories about how they could be inconvenienced, because they want to stay in the Eu. What a surprise.

It's funny isn't it how Liverpool that has been given our money via the Eu, mostly voted remain, but the rest of the North that hadn't, voted to leave. Maybe it is just a case of follow the money, though tbh I don't think it is.


----------



## KittenKong

Seems they are attempting to obliterate any reference to the UK's time in the EU.

Not the first time. Funny how they're changing history by blaming the EEC/EU for the destruction of traditional industries in the '80s. At the time they blamed the Trade Unions for being "too greedy"...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I doubt we would have seen scenes like this at the Proms had the EU Ref. never happened either!
> View attachment 416633
> View attachment 416635


I watch the end of the proms every year. There's always been different flags from other countries from al over the world waved , Its all jolly good humour and no animosity , I dont get why people want to wave a flag that belongs to an organisation but each to their own.


----------



## Guest

I think some people think every country in the European Union flies European Union flags everywhere. Breaking news, we don't. Over here the preferable flag is the national flag the Dutch flag. In Hannover when we was over there this year we saw German flags.


----------



## Magyarmum

In Hungary we fly the Hungarian flag alongside the flag of the region and the EU flag. I can see them from my garden as they're flying above the memorial to the 1956 uprising.

And alongside the name of each village you'll find a sign which translated says "European Village Leader Community"


----------



## CollieSlave

So Boris is off to "negotiate" with Jean-Claude Juncker and to tell Juncker that we are leaving the EU on October 31st, _even without a deal and even when there is a law forbidding this course of action as Juncker will well know. _This approach will, no doubt, impress Juncker with the honesty, decency and respect for the laws of the UK of the Prime Minister. Perhaps the determination and self-sacrificing nature (BoJo might land up in court!) of the Great BoJo will go down well with Juncker and a wonderful deal will be offered to Boris!! Personally, if I was Juncker, I would be disinclined to negotiate with such a degenerate, but who knows? Perhaps Juncker will be impressed and BoJo will return victorious!!!


----------



## Elles

Is someone going to take the Lib Dems to court for saying they’re going to revoke article 50 and for lying for 3 years?

Boris hasn’t said he’s going to break the law, they said they’ll look at it. They’ve already found legal ways around it.

Who made this law?

I could understand if we’d voted remain and Boris had said he was going to take us out anyway, but how can Remainers make a law preventing Brexit, say they’re going to revoke article 50, despite it being in the law that we leave, and go against what the people voted for? 

I really don’t understand the hypocrisy and why some remain voters, or at least MPs, are so happy about it. They’d be absolutely furious if it was the other way around.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065499500, member: 1291226"

I could understand if we'd voted remain and Boris had said he was going to take us out anyway, but how can* Remainers make a law preventing Brexit, *say they're going to revoke article 50, despite it being in the law that we leave, and go against what the people voted for?

I really don't understand the hypocrisy and why some remain voters, or at least MPs, are so happy about it. They'd be absolutely furious if it was the other way around. [/QUOTE]

No one has made a law to prevent Brexit, just one to stop us leaving with Out Deal!


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> No one has made a law to prevent Brexit, just one to stop us leaving with Out Deal!


Made a law to prevent us leaving without a deal a very long time after we should have already gone, then publicly stating they will vote against any deal, as staying in the Eu is better than any deal. That is making a law to prevent brexit. Do you think it's because you want to stay in the Eu that you don't mind and are of the group saying that we didn't vote to leave without a deal?

I haven't met a single person who voted to only leave if we had a deal, because it wasn't on the ballot paper. We were told by Cameron (and many others) that we would leave without one if one couldn't be agreed. At the time he was in charge and the one expected to see it through and he said it more than once to the public and to the politicians who voted in favour of the referendum and in favour of article 50, with a default no deal position.

We should have already left deal or no deal. It was the law.

If it was the other way around, Remain had won, brexiters were the majority in government and were making laws to prevent our staying in, you'd be having hysterics. We will make a law that we only stay in if we get a better deal with the Eu. Then brexiters go on tv saying they'd vote down any deal as leaving the Eu is better than any deal the Eu could offer. That would be the equivalent. See how anti democratic that sounds?


----------



## rona

Well. The lim dems are anything but Democratic are they? 
Staying in the EU without even asking the people again

I've just had a look at Jo Swinsons voting record.
She wants to sell off the National forest, cull Badgers, less regulation on fracking, privatizing Royal mail and partly the health service. Her voting record on health and welfare won't be what most would like.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11971/jo_swinson/east_dunbartonshire/votes


----------



## rona

Can anyone link to the video of Guy Verhofstadt from the lib dem conference and put it on here from Twitter. I don't know how

What the hell was he doing there in internal politics anyway?


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> If I was allowed to vote in the referendum of 2016 I would have voted remain myself, but being a Dutch citizen now I was not allowed.


So you keep saying, but that wasn't quite what Calvine was asking...

I think any result will be open to protest as if leave win again, remain still won't be happy, and if remain win it'll be "we should never have had another referendum {death from Bill & Ted} - "Best 2 out of three??"


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I watch the end of the proms every year. There's always been different flags from other countries from al over the world waved , Its all jolly good humour and no animosity , I dont get why people want to wave a flag that belongs to an organisation but each to their own.


Must admit I've not seen it since the late '70s. It was always a sea of Union flags and nothing else back then.

Perhaps this is what people want to return to? It's backfired somewhat hasn't it!

While other flags may have been used I doubt the EU one would have been dominant, if flown at all, until 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

This is what they are saying about the UK overseas. Even more a laughing stock now the PM compares himself to the Incredible Hulk.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Must admit I've not seen it since the late '70s. It was always a sea of Union flags and nothing else back then.
> 
> Perhaps this is what people want to return to? It's backfired somewhat hasn't it!
> 
> While other flags may have been used I doubt the EU one would have been dominant, if flown at all, until 2016.


So you're saying people voted Brexit because they don't like foreign flags waved at the Proms ? :Hilarious

You've not seen it since the 70s so you have no idea yet you feel free to comment on it as if it were fact.

The EU flag wouldn't be dominant because as I said , it's not a country . I dont think the EU flag was widely used then .
People usually fly the flag of the country they belong too. Yes, its been more dominant recently because of Brexit and that's their prerogative .

I cant remember when I started watching the Last Night but it was in the 80s , I used to watch it with my mum and sing along . She died when I was 30 in 1986 and I watch it every year in her memory.

You're making a great deal out of something that the people in the audience aren't bothered about .


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong , yes we are a laughing stock now because of our MPs and the mess they are making of it.

Seems Remainers arent screaming Its not democracy at the LiB Dems.

Another referendum ,fair enough but revoking article 50 ! They're taking a huge gamble , if it back fires , them I think the lib dems would be finished as a party . They dont care about people , they just want to be in power.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong
> 
> Another referendum ,fair enough but revoking article 50 ! They're taking a huge gamble , if it back fires , them I think the lib dems would be finished as a party . They dont care about people , they just want to be in power.


They lost all credibility when they threw their party in with the Tories and became Tory lite
Up until then I was a staunch liberal dem voter, and thought I always would be, but, when the petty little despot nick clegg showed his true colours and just where the party would go under his leadership, that was enough
Not been a decent leader since paddy ashdown, and, IMHO, are dead in the water and decaying fast


----------



## Elles

Anti democratic Remainers who think they know better than any ((racist, thick, uneducated, poor, uninformed)) leaver will probably vote Lib Dem. If we haven’t left by the time we have an election.


----------



## kimthecat

mrs phas said:


> They lost all credibility when they threw their party in with the Tories and became Tory lite
> Up until then I was a staunch liberal dem voter, and thought I always would be, but, when the petty little despot nick clegg showed his true colours and just where the party would go under his leadership, that was enough
> Not been a decent leader since paddy ashdown, and, IMHO, are dead in the water and decaying fast


I used to vote lib dem until Cleggy . I voted Green last time. I will not vote Labour until Corbyn goes.


----------



## Elles

Talking of how other countries view it, if we really are going to view populations on their media, this popped up on my YouTube. :Hilarious

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1zpWJNtKByY


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So you're saying people voted Brexit because they don't like foreign flags waved at the Proms ? :Hilarious
> 
> You've not seen it since the 70s so you have no idea yet you feel free to comment on it as if it were fact.
> 
> The EU flag wouldn't be dominant because as I said , it's not a country . I dont think the EU flag was widely used then .
> People usually fly the flag of the country they belong too. Yes, its been more dominant recently because of Brexit and that's their prerogative .
> 
> I cant remember when I started watching the Last Night but it was in the 80s , I used to watch it with my mum and sing along . She died when I was 30 in 1986 and I watch it every year in her memory.
> 
> You're making a great deal out of something that the people in the audience aren't bothered about .


I should have, perhaps added, I've not seen it right through since the late '70s. It was a very proud moment when I did catch a bit of one a couple of years ago where I saw EU flags being waved.

The point I'm making is, I didn't see a single EU flag during the 2012 London Olympics.

Anyway, the tabloids and, apparently their readers are up in arms about EU, (and probably other non British), flags being waved at the Proms. They do appear to be wanting to revert it to the days where an exclusive sea of Union flags be waved again, which is how I personally remember the Proms.



kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong , yes we are a laughing stock now because of our MPs and the mess they are making of it.
> 
> Seems Remainers arent screaming Its not democracy at the LiB Dems.
> 
> Another referendum ,fair enough but revoking article 50 ! They're taking a huge gamble , if it back fires , them I think the lib dems would be finished as a party . They dont care about people , they just want to be in power.


I think the Lib Dems move is a clever one. Swinson could have played a blinder, but will not win her the General Election. It's impossible for them to win on their own. Memories of Steele's, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government", comes to mind.

Many of us are sick and tired of being told, "We" voted out, "The British people voted to leave" and "We must respect the will of the people". Not only from the Tories and the Farage lot but from many in Labour too. Not only Remainers being taunted with, "Get over it", but the many millions who were unable to vote for whatever reason.

I disagree Swinney's motives are undemocratic as, after all, it's up to the people to decide that at an election. It is not compulsory to vote Lib Dems after all!

I admire and support that, but rejection of a progressive alliance is more of a concern to me. A split opposition just enables another five years of Tory rule by default.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I wonder if we would feel the same if we didn't have the English Channel between us. We are just a Small Island with a Small Island mentality. We don't have an Empire and we don't rule the waves anymore. We are just a small blob on the world map.


----------



## Elles

Many people in mainland European countries feel the same way about the Eu. It doesn’t mean they want to split from Europe, the Eu is something else.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I should have, perhaps added, I've not seen it right through since the late '70s. It was a very proud moment when I did catch a bit of one a couple of years ago where I saw EU flags being waved.
> 
> The point I'm making is, I didn't see a single EU flag during the 2012 London Olympics.
> 
> Anyway, the tabloids and, apparently their readers are up in arms about EU, (and probably other non British), flags being waved at the Proms. They do appear to be wanting to revert it to the days where an exclusive sea of Union flags be waved again, which is how I personally remember the Proms.
> 
> I think the Lib Dems move is a clever one. Swinson could have played a blinder, but will not win her the General Election. It's impossible for them to win on their own. Memories of Steele's, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government", comes to mind.
> 
> Many of us are sick and tired of being told, "We" voted out, "The British people voted to leave" and "We must respect the will of the people". Not only from the Tories and the Farage lot but from many in Labour too. Not only Remainers being taunted with, "Get over it", but the many millions who were unable to vote for whatever reason.
> 
> I disagree Swinney's motives are undemocratic as, after all, it's up to the people to decide that at an election. It is not compulsory to vote Lib Dems after all!
> 
> I admire and support that, but rejection of a progressive alliance is more of a concern to me. A split opposition just enables another five years of Tory rule by default.


Why would you or anyone expect to see the EU flag flying at the 2012 Olympic Games?

Has no one informed you that some 204 countries competed in the games of which only 28 are in the EU?

In any case the Olympics has it's own flag just as every country in the world does and the 28 countries were competing for their country NOT for the EU


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wonder if we would feel the same if we didn't have the English Channel between us. We are just a Small Island with a Small Island mentality. We don't have an Empire and we don't rule the waves anymore. We are just a small blob on the world map.


But if you vote Lib Dem and listen to Guy Verhofstadt's ambitions you can one day belong to the great Empire that the EU is going to become!


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, someone's upset. How dare some not choose to fly the Union flag!


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> But if you vote Lib Dem and listen to Guy Verhofstadt's ambitions you can one day belong to the great Empire that the EU is going to become!


Bloody hell! I'm sorry guys, but that's awful and quite scary.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Bloody hell! I'm sorry guys, but that's awful and quite scary.


It's what the Lib Dems stand for


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Bloody hell! I'm sorry guys, but that's awful and quite scary.


My sentiments exactly!


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Many people in mainland European countries feel the same way about the Eu. It doesn't mean they want to split from Europe, the Eu is something else.


An American view of the EU

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/european-union-parliament-elections-antidemocratic

*The European Union Is an Antidemocratic Disgrace*

https://www.ecfr.eu/publications/su...e_battle_for_the_political_system_eu_election

*What Europeans really feel: The battle for the political system*

https://reutersinstitute.politics.o...ic-unconcerned-how-europes-media-cover-brexit

*Sympathetic but unconcerned: How Europe's media cover Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rnli-overseas_uk_5d7e3062e4b077dcbd5fdc24

Seen several reports from different sources. What a nasty and vindictive place the UK has become.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 416754
> 
> https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rnli-overseas_uk_5d7e3062e4b077dcbd5fdc24
> 
> Seen several reports from different sources. What a nasty and vindictive place the UK has become.


https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/09/1...hatchet-job-and-the-backlash-was-spectacular/

*The Daily Mail did an RNLI hatchet job and the backlash was spectacular*


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/09/1...hatchet-job-and-the-backlash-was-spectacular/
> 
> *The Daily Mail did an RNLI hatchet job and the backlash was spectacular*


They did that to the RSPCA as well because they were against hunting. Whatever did the RNLI do to deserve this. 
I watch Saving Lives at seas and they do an amazing job and so brave,


----------



## Elles

The RNLI are cutting back operations in this country and losing money, so people are questioning why our donations to lifeboats around the U.K. are white saviouring overseas. Comic relief saves children’s lives overseas by raising money for mosquito nets, rnli buys burkinis with money it can ill afford. Where on the plastic lifeboat on the shop counter does it say it’s raising money for that? What next? Air ambulance Devon cancels operations on Dartmoor to send stretchers to Africa? 

We need lifeboats and volunteers around the coast here to save lives, I’ve put money in the rnli pot, it’s really important around Devon and Cornwall coasts and it’s to save people there whatever their nationality. They are bound to be criticised if they’re sending money overseas, they aren’t an international charity like comic relief, oxfam etc.

The N stands for National.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> The RNLI are cutting back operations in this country and losing money, so people are questioning why our donations to lifeboats around the U.K. are white saviouring overseas. Comic relief saves children's lives overseas by raising money for mosquito nets, rnli buys burkinis with money it can ill afford. Where on the plastic lifeboat on the shop counter does it say it's raising money for that? What next? Air ambulance Devon cancels operations on Dartmoor to send stretchers to Africa?
> 
> We need lifeboats and volunteers around the coast here to save lives, I've put money in the rnli pot, it's really important around Devon and Cornwall coasts and it's to save people there whatever their nationality. They are bound to be criticised if they're sending money overseas, they aren't an international charity like comic relief, oxfam etc.
> 
> The N stands for National.


I'm unsure how buying burkinis even remotely helps to _save_ lives. Surely it's putting more people in the water?


----------



## JANICE199

*The thing i have found most interesting throughout this whole brexit thing is this. Dy after day we hear how bad and worse off we will be. Why isn't anybody saying how better off we will be? Well my answer to this is simple, nobody know one way or the other. Do i believe we can get along on our own? hell yes. But we need to give it a chance. I believe, the powers that be are afraid that if the UK leave, then other countries will follow. Enough said for now *


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The RNLI are cutting back operations in this country and losing money, so people are questioning why our donations to lifeboats around the U.K. are white saviouring overseas. Comic relief saves children's lives overseas by raising money for mosquito nets, rnli buys burkinis with money it can ill afford. Where on the plastic lifeboat on the shop counter does it say it's raising money for that? What next? Air ambulance Devon cancels operations on Dartmoor to send stretchers to Africa?
> 
> We need lifeboats and volunteers around the coast here to save lives, I've put money in the rnli pot, it's really important around Devon and Cornwall coasts and it's to save people there whatever their nationality. They are bound to be criticised if they're sending money overseas, they aren't an international charity like comic relief, oxfam etc.
> 
> The N stands for National.


Having a "sailing" family who live on a yacht, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the "outrage" seemed to be blown out of proportion.


----------



## rona

Magyarmum said:


> Having a "sailing" family who live on a yacht, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the "outrage" seemed to be blown out of proportion.


Also I think their donations have gone up.

Much to Kittenkong disappointment I would imagine

True gutter press


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> An American view of the EU
> 
> https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/european-union-parliament-elections-antidemocratic
> 
> *The European Union Is an Antidemocratic Disgrace*
> 
> https://www.ecfr.eu/publications/su...e_battle_for_the_political_system_eu_election
> 
> *What Europeans really feel: The battle for the political system*
> 
> https://reutersinstitute.politics.o...ic-unconcerned-how-europes-media-cover-brexit
> 
> *Sympathetic but unconcerned: How Europe's media cover Brexit*


That's hardly surprising, though. US Big Business (and, by extension, the US political community which depends on Big Business to fund them into power) dislikes the EU because the EU has petty little laws concerning things like (for example) environmental protection, food safely and workers rights, which prevent them maximising their profit by exploiting such areas as they do in the US (particularly under the current administration). And, unlike individual countries, the EU is heavyweight enough to prevent the US using their own size to get their own way. Give the way the first article throws around 'liberal' and 'neoliberal' like epithets, I think we can safely categorise this as a significantly bbiased opinion piece as opposed to pur factual analysis/.

The second article - well, I'm not sure what it's really trying to say other than "people are generally concerned there _may_ be trouble ahead, but no-one really knows what the future holds." Some of the statistics could be interpreted in any number of ways, too, depending on what station your crystal ball is tuned in to.

The last article is probably the most interesting and balanced of the three. Nice and factual, nothing outlandish or wild in the interpretations. Shouldn't really surprise anyone anyway, really, that Eu journalism isn't too fussed about Brexit, as (aside from Ireland) the impact to most EU countries should be minimal, and they've already got their No Deal preparations well in hand as well.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wonder if we would feel the same if we didn't have the English Channel between us. We are just a Small Island with a Small Island mentality. We don't have an Empire and we don't rule the waves anymore. We are just a small blob on the world map.


If we weren't an island , we'd be part of the German Empire now.



Magyarmum said:


> Why would you or anyone expect to see the EU flag flying at the 2012 Olympic Games?


Perhaps they would have seen more flags there if they'd had an orchestrated campaign like the one on 2017 where 10.000 Eu flags were handed out to the Proms audience.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ms-bbc-royal-albert-hall-london-a7938206.html

It says
Activists were due to give out the banners outside the Royal Albert Hall, in west London, on Saturday night while wearing T-shirts emblazoned with the slogan "thank EU for the music EU".


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Having a "sailing" family who live on a yacht, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the "outrage" seemed to be blown out of proportion.


Outrage in the papers always is though.


----------



## Elles

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing i have found most interesting throughout this whole brexit thing is this. Dy after day we hear how bad and worse off we will be. Why isn't anybody saying how better off we will be? Well my answer to this is simple, nobody know one way or the other. Do i believe we can get along on our own? hell yes. But we need to give it a chance. I believe, the powers that be are afraid that if the UK leave, then other countries will follow. Enough said for now *


They have been, but they've been drowned out by the remainstream media.


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> I'm unsure how buying burkinis even remotely helps to _save_ lives. Surely it's putting more people in the water?


I think teaching kids to swim is a good thing, so if they do fall in they don't panic and drown, after all there's a lot of water on the planet and in floods more than usual. I wouldn't have any problem at all with the the rnli offering their expertise to governments and similar charities overseas, but I agree, buying burkinis should be the remit of the country concerned, not our Rnli. Where do you draw the line and why isn't the charity being accused of this white saviourism other charities are accused of?


----------



## Jesthar

Mark Ruffalo, who played the Hulk for 12 years in Avengers films, has commented on BoJo's Hulk comments 

*Mark Ruffalo *‏Verified account @*MarkRuffalo*
Boris Johnson forgets that the Hulk only fights for the good of the whole. Mad and strong can also be dense and destructive. The Hulk works best when he is in unison with a team, and is a disaster when he is alone. Plus...he's always got Dr. Banner with science and reason.


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing i have found most interesting throughout this whole brexit thing is this. Dy after day we hear how bad and worse off we will be. Why isn't anybody saying how better off we will be? Well my answer to this is simple, nobody know one way or the other. Do i believe we can get along on our own? hell yes. But we need to give it a chance. I believe, the powers that be are afraid that if the UK leave, then other countries will follow. Enough said for now *


But gambling with your future is, at best, foolhardy though isn't it? I could leave my job in the hope of getting another one. Would I be guaranteed to find another job? Yes I might, then I might not.

I'm a firm believer in not fixing anything that isn't broken.

If Brexit does succeed in destroying the EU, would you be happy to see former member states fight wars with each other again every 20 years or so, just like they used to?

Even some of the far right parties in other parts of Europe have reviewed their Eurosceptic stance and now wish to remain.

Brexit, if it was a person, reminds me of the life of comedian Tony Hancock. He thought he could do better by breaking up with his manager and writers that made him the success he was. "My best is yet to come", became his catchphrase. It never did. He plodded on for a few years as a former shadow of himself as he succumbed to alcoholism before committing suicide.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I think teaching kids to swim is a good thing, so if they do fall in they don't panic and drown, after all there's a lot of water on the planet and in floods more than usual. I wouldn't have any problem at all with the the rnli offering their expertise to governments and similar charities overseas, but I agree, buying burkinis should be the remit of the country concerned, not our Rnli. Where do you draw the line and why isn't the charity being accused of this white saviourism other charities are accused of?


But that's exactly what they _are _doing - funding work with partners overseas to teach basic swimming skills in countries where dozens of kids a day drown.

As far as I can find out, that has involved one instance of buying burkinis for a project in Zanzibar - and most of the money for the entire project came from a single project donor and sponsor who specified how they wanted the money to be used. If a few cheap swimsuits enable the daughters of strict muslim familes to learn a skill that might save their life, I can't say I have a problem with that.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> But that's exactly what they _are _doing - funding work with partners overseas to teach basic swimming skills in countries where dozens of kids a day drown.
> 
> As far as I can find out, that has involved one instance of buying burkinis for a project in Zanzibar - and most of the money for the entire project came from a single project donor and sponsor who specified how they wanted the money to be used. If a few cheap swimsuits enable the daughters of strict muslim familes to learn a skill that might save their life, I can't say I have a problem with that.


I didn't say we should be funding it.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Mark Ruffalo, who played the Hulk for 12 years in Avengers films, has commented on BoJo's Hulk comments
> 
> *Mark Ruffalo *‏Verified account @*MarkRuffalo*
> Boris Johnson forgets that the Hulk only fights for the good of the whole. Mad and strong can also be dense and destructive. The Hulk works best when he is in unison with a team, and is a disaster when he is alone. Plus...he's always got Dr. Banner with science and reason.


So speaks a remainer.  Boris does have his team and experts and is brexiting for the good of the whole. Many believe that replacing the Eu would be the best way forward for Europe, if not everywhere. So it depends on whether you're looking at it from a Remain or Leave stance. Isn't Lou Ferrigno the Hulk anyway?


----------



## kimthecat

@Elles have you seen this ?

https://www.peterheatonjones.org.uk...eaton-jones-mp-regarding-comments-bbc-radio-4

Statement from Peter Heaton-Jones MP (Conservative, North Devon)

"The Liberal Democrat candidate for North Devon should make an immediate and unreserved apology to local people following her disgraceful comments on BBC Radio 4 this lunchtime.

Explaining support for Brexit in North Devon by saying 'it's 98% white' and 'they don't travel a lot' is highly offensive. She must withdraw those remarks immediately.

The Lib Dem candidate also said, 'I do not link all leave voters to hate crime', and even talked about race as another factor. This is appalling and unacceptable.

When pressed to defend her remarks, she could only say, 'you've got me in a corner here', and later trailed off into silence.

The Lib Dem candidate should break that silence only to apologise for the patronising and inflammatory comments in this extraordinary outburst.

Many people will be extremely offended by the suggestion that they support Brexit because they're white and don't get out much, or that there's a link between some Leave voters and hate crime.

I'm sure North Devonians will reflect on this carefully when judging the Lib Dem candidate's suitability to represent our area at the next general election".


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> @Elles have you seen this ?
> 
> https://www.peterheatonjones.org.uk...eaton-jones-mp-regarding-comments-bbc-radio-4
> 
> Statement from Peter Heaton-Jones MP (Conservative, North Devon)
> 
> "The Liberal Democrat candidate for North Devon should make an immediate and unreserved apology to local people following her disgraceful comments on BBC Radio 4 this lunchtime.
> 
> Explaining support for Brexit in North Devon by saying 'it's 98% white' and 'they don't travel a lot' is highly offensive. She must withdraw those remarks immediately.
> 
> The Lib Dem candidate also said, 'I do not link all leave voters to hate crime', and even talked about race as another factor. This is appalling and unacceptable.
> 
> When pressed to defend her remarks, she could only say, 'you've got me in a corner here', and later trailed off into silence.
> 
> The Lib Dem candidate should break that silence only to apologise for the patronising and inflammatory comments in this extraordinary outburst.
> 
> Many people will be extremely offended by the suggestion that they support Brexit because they're white and don't get out much, or that there's a link between some Leave voters and hate crime.
> 
> I'm sure North Devonians will reflect on this carefully when judging the Lib Dem candidate's suitability to represent our area at the next general election".


:Hilarious Is she Boris' sister?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Did anyone heard the Luxembourg's PM holding a press conference on his own, BJ should have been there but chickened out as he said it would be noisy as there as a few protesters there. The man's a coward!!


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> :Hilarious Is she Boris' sister?


:Hilarious I actually like Boris's dad , sister and Jo his brother , just not Boris


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Did anyone heard the Luxembourg's PM holding a press conference on his own, BJ should have been there but chickened out as he said it would be noisy as there as a few protesters there. The man's a coward!!


Yes , its been mentioned already , perhaps in the other thread. He avoids things , did it with the Third runway, avoided the vote , after he promised he would lie down in front of a bulldozer if it went ahead .


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Yes , its been mentioned already , perhaps in the other thread. He avoids things , did it with the Third runway, avoided the vote , after he promised he would lie down in front of a bulldozer if it went ahead .


I find it really hard to believe he's our PM. This is what not leaving the EU actually did. Gave us Boris as PM. We should have already left like we were supposed to.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Did anyone heard the Luxembourg's PM holding a press conference on his own, BJ should have been there but chickened out as he said it would be noisy as there as a few protesters there. The man's a coward!!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> why isn't the charity being accused of this white saviourism other charities are accused of?


 Give it time! Maybe David Lammy hasn't heard about it yet.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Give it time! Maybe David Lammy hasn't heard about it yet.


:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.theweek.co.uk/103311/wh...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

*Why are donations surging to the RNLI?*


----------



## Elles

It’s so weird that comic relief was criticised for its work overseas, but the rnli isn’t. It’s racist to not donate and it’s racist to donate.


----------



## kimthecat

Rumours that Boris was set up .

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...-scared-or-the-victim-of-a-stitch-up-11811530


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Rumours that Boris was set up .
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...-scared-or-the-victim-of-a-stitch-up-11811530


That's what I read as well. There's this little piece from Politico about it and Laura Kuenssberg who I think I'm right in believing is no fan of BJ also thinks it's a set up..

*"Bettel the devil you know:* What's undoubtedly true though is that Bettel purposefully chose to humiliate his guest with an empty podium rather than agree to Downing Street's request to hold the press conference indoors - a surprisingly confrontational (and some would say downright rude) decision that would never have been taken here in the U.K. with a visiting dignitary. Given the delicacy of the situation, you do wonder what Bettel's fellow EU27 leaders will make of it. Helpfully, the man himself is due in Paris today for talks with Emmanuel Macron, so perhaps they can share some thoughts in a joint presser".


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> racist, thick, uneducated, poor, uninformed


 You are forgetting ''insular'', ''closed'' and ''selfish'' (according to Jo Swinson).


----------



## Guest

Jo Swinson is the remain voters of the 2016 referendums version of Nigel Farage from what I have read.


----------



## Guest

I was not impressed with Guy Verhofstadt's vision of the future united Europe that he described the other day at the UK Liberal Democrat conference. How can you united 28 (soon to be 27) countries, it is impossible as they are individual countries with different laws and customs?

Is he on cloud cuckoo?


----------



## Namerequired

My opinion on the topic is that the uncertainty and definite drawbacks offset the potential benefits of Brexit. Hence I was and am against it. 
It is a waiting game, unfortunately, and the outcome might not be as anticipated i.e. no deal


----------



## Guest

European Union Parliament Votes In Favour Of Brexit Delay


----------



## Elles

We’ll only delay brexit if there’s a deal, an election, or a referendum. Yeah ok. :Hilarious Which one have we got?

We’re currently paying the EU a billion a month, did anyone believe they’d make us leave on the 31st Oct with no deal?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> We'll only delay brexit if there's a deal, an election, or a referendum. Yeah ok. :Hilarious Which one have we got?
> 
> We're currently paying the EU a billion a month, did anyone believe they'd make us leave on the 31st Oct with no deal?


:Hilarious


----------



## rona

No surprise there, you didn't need a crystal ball to see that coming 

They want to hang on to the golden goose..........and we are looking more like geese the longer this debacle goes on


----------



## Beth78

I must admit this whole Brexit sh×te has made me deaf and blind to politics in general.
I tune out and have no idea what is going on in parliament anymore.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> European Union Parliament Votes In Favour Of Brexit Delay


Maybe I missed something but this decision was made on Wednesday, and one would have thought it would have been splashed over the front page of every newspaper in the UK on Thursday morning? If it was I certainly didn't see it!

On Thursday the UK sent written proposals to the EU and again little or nothing seems to have been said about it

Or is it just me that's missed it?

https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/19/the-brief-the-eu-receives-brexit-proposal-from-britain

The Brief: The EU receives Brexit proposal from Britain

.


----------



## rona

Is this so that they can continue to undermine the British governments efforts?
This is looking more and more like collusion

"These are papers for now. Until we have looked at them in detail, I will not characterise them beyond being a paper," European Commission spokeswoman Mina Andreeva explained.
https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/19/the-brief-the-eu-receives-brexit-proposal-from-britain


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Maybe I missed something but this decision was made on Wednesday, and one would have thought it would have been splashed over the front page of every newspaper in the UK on Thursday morning? If it was I certainly didn't see it!
> 
> On Thursday the UK sent written proposals to the EU and again little or nothing seems to have been said about it
> 
> Or is it just me that's missed it?
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/19/the-brief-the-eu-receives-brexit-proposal-from-britain
> 
> The Brief: The EU receives Brexit proposal from Britain
> 
> .


Yesterday Mr Barclay went to the European Union and as he was on his way back his proposal was rejected on an alternative solution to the back stop. So everything seems to be back to square one. No deal on the 31st October 2019 unless an alternative solution can be found to the Irish backstop.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> No surprise there, you didn't need a crystal ball to see that coming
> 
> They want to hang on to the golden goose..........and we are looking more like geese the longer this debacle goes on


 Of course they do, bet your bottom dollar (euro) on that. UK is something like the eighth largest net contributor, or was.


----------



## Calvine

Beth78 said:


> I must admit this whole Brexit sh×te has made me deaf and blind to politics in general.
> I tune out and have no idea what is going on in parliament anymore.


 Don't lose sleep over that; the very ones who are supposed to be sorting it out are starting to admit they are confused.com.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Is this so that they can continue to undermine the British governments efforts?
> This is looking more and more like collusion
> 
> "These are papers for now. Until we have looked at them in detail, I will not characterise them beyond being a paper," European Commission spokeswoman Mina Andreeva explained.
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/19/the-brief-the-eu-receives-brexit-proposal-from-britain


I noticed that remark as well.

I had the impression she was being deliberately disparaging, but gave her the benefit of the doubt because I thought maybe I was being oversensitive?


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Is this so that they can continue to undermine the British governments efforts?
> This is looking more and more like collusion
> 
> "These are papers for now. Until we have looked at them in detail, I will not characterise them beyond being a paper," European Commission spokeswoman Mina Andreeva explained.
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/19/the-brief-the-eu-receives-brexit-proposal-from-britain


Seriously?


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> Yesterday Mr Barclay went to the European Union and as he was on his way back his proposal was rejected on an alternative solution to the back stop. So everything seems to be back to square one. No deal on the 31st October 2019 unless an alternative solution can be found to the Irish backstop.


It was rubbish solution.
Simples. Embarrassingly so.

I am not surprised if EU people are getting fed up with " last minute ", uncooked, unprepared proposals and ignorant buffoon of PM.

They are simply telling us that it needs serious consideration.
BoJo simply run scared....glib remarks and turning everything into joke doesn't wash anymore.

ERG knows what is good for them: out of MIFID2, deregulation of financial services, any capital will do. Be it drugs, human trafficking or arms...

MIFID2 is very much about money laundering, terrorism funding and data protection.

ERG does not want EU regulations or regulators.

ERG is the voice of big international corporations, fat FTSE and they play well against dollar.

Of course it is put in very simplified way here but they don't care about environmental issues in Britain, about the common people, about anything except making more money.

Everyone and everything for sale and BoJo with two speeches for each turnout of referendum embodies that.

The Brexit is tragic because you are just selling out your values thinking you are protecting them.

Workers rights, state health care and education, anything that protects people and environment from being exploited will be quickly cut by ERG.

They represent fat bosses who don't want taxes to pay for all that.

First thing BoJo promised are lower taxes for high earners.
ERG promised deregulation and low corporate tax.

I see good points in it but I see the danger.

Power in Britain is soon to be consolidated in the hands of the rich and the subservient opportunists.

People of honour, sense, sincerely and gravitas like Clarke or Grieve we're disposed of.
Or resigned like Rudd.

Even May had principles and was not for sale.

BoJo's popularity is growing despite it being obvious he is a racist, two faced liar and totally incompetent PM.

Many who voted for Brexit don't have to worry about jobs or workers' rights... they don't care.

Really sad looking at those kids in climate change strike...what a future for them...

It is not scaremongering, do you have any doubts what corporations are?


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Yesterday Mr Barclay went to the European Union and as he was on his way back his proposal was rejected on an alternative solution to the back stop. So everything seems to be back to square one. No deal on the 31st October 2019 unless an alternative solution can be found to the Irish backstop.





cheekyscrip said:


> It was rubbish solution.
> Simples. Embarrassingly so.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nson-eu-barnier-stephen-barclay-a9113451.html

*EU rejects Boris Johnson request for Brexit deal without Irish backstop*

https://www.ft.com/content/30ba45d0-da48-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

*DUP signals softening on Northern Ireland-specific Brexit solutions*


----------



## Elles

So now Jacob Rees-Mogg and the ERG are involved, or at least supportive of, drugs, human trafficking, arms, money laundering and terrorism funding? 

Where are you reading this stuff?

Our PM does not have the kind of power you suggest. The U.K. has always been pushing for higher standards within the Eu. In fact it was one the reasons touted for staying in. We were supposed to stay in to improve standards across Europe and I think you yourself said to save Europe from Germany and France. Now we’re scum of the Earth and our glorious leaders can’t wait to turn Britain into some crime lord paradise?.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Power in Britain is soon to be consolidated in the hands of the rich and the subservient opportunists.


What like it is now in the EU



cheekyscrip said:


> Many who voted for Brexit don't have to worry about jobs or workers' rights... they don't care.


And I thought it was all ignorant uneducated poor pensioners that voted for it


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I noticed that remark as well.
> 
> I had the impression she was being deliberately disparaging, but gave her the benefit of the doubt because I thought maybe I was being oversensitive?


Sounds like a reasonable comment to me, to be honest. Just a more roundabout (and slightly more diplomatic) way of saying 'I haven't read it yet, so I have no idea if it's worth the paper it's printed on or not'


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Sounds like a reasonable comment to me, to be honest. Just a more roundabout (and slightly more diplomatic) way of saying 'I haven't read it yet, so I have no idea if it's worth the paper it's printed on or not'


Why not simply say that then instead of saying something that's open to misinterpretation?:Meh


----------



## Elles

Looks like Bercow has the offer of another job. With the Eu.

https://www.france24.com/en/2019091...-bercow-step-down-brexit-crisis-house-commons


John #Bercow is a driven speaker and gifted orator but above all the keeper of the great British parliamentary tradition. I would love if we could welcome him in the European Commission or European Parliament (Verhofstadt twitter feed)

"Bercow bent parliamentary rules to give lawmakers the chance to challenge government policy, most recently to pass a law seeking to block a no-deal exit from the European Union."

Plus:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...es-parliamentary-watchdog-breaching-mp-rules/

"Mr Bercow failed to declare a shareholding in a company he founded jointly with his wife Sally in May.

The Speaker has written to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards saying he was "not aware" of the rules surrounding declaration of MPs' interests."

Speaker for what? 10 years? Didn't know the rules? Ofc it doesn't matter now he's standing down.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Why not simply say that then instead of saying something that's open to misinterpretation?


Did she say it in English? If so maybe allow a little leeway for it not being her first language.


----------



## Elles

Brexiters are calling for the bbc to be investigated over their pro remain bias. Tbh if you want to see unbiased or Brexit biased media, you have to look outside the U.K. in the main.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Did she say it in English? If so maybe allow a little leeway for it not being her first language.


Yes she did but that's no excuse as this was a public statement and the wording would have had to been agreed to beforehand!

I had a friend who was an EU translator and she told me they could argue for months over the meaning of a single word.

I've also had experience in writing proposals for funding from various governments and well remember three of us, all English speaking but one South African, one British and one American spending three hours over one word in the proposal which had a slightly different meaning to all of us. The US government had a tome 9 inches thick of the protocols governing the writing and presentation of such proposals.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Why not simply say that then instead of saying something that's open to misinterpretation?:Meh


I believe 'papers' has a specific meaning in the EU legal mechanism, as does 'non-papers'


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> I believe 'papers' has a specific meaning in the EU legal mechanism, as does 'non-papers'


Maybe so, but then the average Joe Muggins like me wouldn't know that would they?:Meh


----------



## Elles

http://www.novonordisk.co.uk/content/dam/UK/AFFILIATE/www-novonordisk-co-uk/Home/Media/Documents/130919 NNUK - Brexit Media Statement FINAL.pdf

Insulin supplies

I had to click on a cookies button to read it, but in case you can't it says they've been planning for four years and have it covered.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> What like it is now in the EU
> 
> And I thought it was all ignorant uneducated poor pensioners that voted for it


Not like it is in EU, EU has best in the world workers protection rights and very tight financial regulations.

Nothing like in EU.
EU are no saints but compared to Trump and Putin they are...


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> http://www.novonordisk.co.uk/content/dam/UK/AFFILIATE/www-novonordisk-co-uk/Home/Media/Documents/130919 NNUK - Brexit Media Statement FINAL.pdf
> 
> Insulin supplies
> 
> I had to click on a cookies button to read it, but in case you can't it says they've been planning for four years and have it covered.


I think I'm correct in saying that Novo Nordisk have said for quite a long time that there will be no problems with the insulin supply. My son is a type 1 diabetic and having spoken to him he isn't unduly worried about a shortage of suppplies.


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> I think I'm correct in saying that Novo Nordisk have said for quite a long time that there will be no problems with the insulin supply. My son is a type 1 diabetic and having spoken to him he isn't unduly worried about a shortage of suppplies.


Looks like it. They've been reassuring people on twitter too.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172127984775573504


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Maybe so, but then the average Joe Muggins like me wouldn't know that would they?:Meh


Perhaps. But, as you say, the EU will have picked the words of the statement carefully, and those words will have been chosed for political reasons, not public comprehension.

Personally, I'd have to suspect their primary concern was making sure whatever was said could only be interpreted one way legally, so they didn't leave themselves open to accusations of inconsistency, changing their position, saying things they didn't mean, etc.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> And I thought it was all ignorant uneducated poor pensioners that voted for it


Maybe that is what she means: if you are a poor, uneducated, working class pensioner, you won't give a stuff about workers' rights as you will (presumably) be retired. You should add to the list ''insular, closed and selfish'' - according to Jo Swinson. I really think she should have been asked to apologise for this ignorant comment. Brexit has caused enough division without derogatory comments like that from someone who should know better. If she and Boris/ Corbyn want to take a pot shot at each other, then they are fair game for that, it goes with the territory, so to speak, but totally out of order to describe the electorate in such a way. I don't think Vince Cable would have come out with anything quite so crass.


----------



## OrientalSlave

saartje said:


> I was not impressed with Guy Verhofstadt's vision of the future united Europe that he described the other day at the UK Liberal Democrat conference. How can you united 28 (soon to be 27) countries, it is impossible as they are individual countries with different laws and customs?
> 
> Is he on cloud cuckoo?


The laws are different in Scotland, and NI, than in England and Wales.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Elles said:


> We'll only delay brexit if there's a deal, an election, or a referendum. Yeah ok. :Hilarious Which one have we got?
> 
> We're currently paying the EU a billion a month, did anyone believe they'd make us leave on the 31st Oct with no deal?


That figure is an overstatement, and ignores the economic benefits other than the payments to farmers etc. However it's hard to measure the economic benefits...

https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/


----------



## Elles

OrientalSlave said:


> That figure is an overstatement, and ignores the economic benefits other than the payments to farmers etc. However it's hard to measure the economic benefits...
> 
> https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/


Irrelevant. We are paying the Eu a sum of money a month while our politicians mess about, they aren't going to want to deliberately lose it unless they have to, whether it's a fiver, five million, or one billion and can you blame them?


----------



## KittenKong

Having taken part in a couple of street stalls yesterday one thing became very apparent.

We were subjected to a lot of abuse from the, "We voted out", brigade who were very bitter and angry people, full of hatred. If it wasn't about Brexit it would have been something else.

They appeared to take out their misfortunes on us. Not one could specify how they expect their lives to improve after exiting the EU, as if they wanted to drag us down with them. "We fought two World Wars", was one reaction which I thought was rather odd seeing he wasn't around at the time of the wars. There you go.

It was pitiful to put it mildly.


----------



## kimthecat

Tom Watson survived an attempt to get rid of him. Labour say corbyn will come up with a Deal that will be accepted in 3 months and then a referendum


KittenKong said:


> Having taken part in a couple of street stalls yesterday one thing became very apparent.
> 
> We were subjected to a lot of abuse from the, "We voted out", brigade who were very bitter and angry people, full of hatred. If it wasn't about Brexit it would have been something else.
> 
> They appeared to take out their misfortunes on us. Not one could specify how they expect their lives to improve after exiting the EU, as if they wanted to drag us down with them. "We fought two World Wars", was one reaction which I thought was rather odd seeing he wasn't around at the time of the wars. There you go.
> 
> It was pitiful to put it mildly.


What is pitiful is MPs etc deliberately delaying Brexit. You dont think they're totally pissed an angry at the way their vote is been ignored. Who can blame them . They've the right to be angry at democracy being over turned .

BTW you need to get over your obsession with the war !

From Twitter 
Soubry says 'white working class' Leave voters have 'probably never even seen a migrant'

That must be one of the most stupidest thing anyone has said .


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Having taken part in a couple of street stalls yesterday one thing became very apparent.
> 
> We were subjected to a lot of abuse from the, "We voted out", brigade who were very bitter and angry people, full of hatred. If it wasn't about Brexit it would have been something else.
> 
> They appeared to take out their misfortunes on us. Not one could specify how they expect their lives to improve after exiting the EU, as if they wanted to drag us down with them. "We fought two World Wars", was one reaction which I thought was rather odd seeing he wasn't around at the time of the wars. There you go.
> 
> It was pitiful to put it mildly.


Can I ask something.
If you was taking part in a couple of street stalls yesterday, how would Brexit voters know you voted remain from a street stall?


----------



## Guest

OrientalSlave said:


> The laws are different in Scotland, and NI, than in England and Wales.


I thought England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all had the same laws as they are Governed by the United Kingdom Parliament. The courts are slightly different in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but I am sure the laws are the same.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> BTW you need to get over your obsession with the war !


It wasn't me who mentioned the war!!!

I think many will be angry and upset when they realise they were conned when the reality hits them. I remembered what happened with the Poll Tax which was also the, "Will of the people" seeing the Tories won a majority with that in the manifesto. No one complained it was undemocratic when it was eventually abolished!

But is the abuse necessary and justified? I've seen people give out Vote Leave leaflets (in 2016) and even someone handing out BNP leaflets. I politely declined, but didn't shower them with threats of violence nor verbal abuse, however much I despise everything they stand for.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> It wasn't me who mentioned the war!!!
> 
> I think many will be angry and upset when they realise they were conned when the reality hits them. I remembered what happened with the Poll Tax which was also the, "Will


The war is brought up a fair few times by ERG members, angry little Francois likes to mention it, Cash has mentioned the blitz spirt of WW11, someone on a BBC discussion programme ( don't know who he was) said he was upset that EU countries were not showing proper gratitude to the UK for all they had done in WW11, I remember cringing when he said it! There are lots of `we don't mind rations the UK endured them in the war` comments from people who think having shortage of food ( if that should be the case) will be worth it and will all be jolly good fun.


----------



## KittenKong

Sigh. Even the Tories appear to be moving on from their promises of sunlit uplands and unicorns. Their, "Get Ready for Brexit" £100m taxpayers' money promotion is a stuff of horrors, as if to say, "This is what you voted for, get over it".

Clearly, his days as Labour leader are numbered.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-party-to-have-two-deputy-leaders-live-news


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> The war is brought up a fair few times by ERG members, angry little Francois likes to mention it, Cash has mentioned the blitz spirt of WW11, someone on a BBC discussion programme ( don't know who he was) said he was upset that EU countries were not showing proper gratitude to the UK for all they had done in WW11, I remember cringing when he said it! There are lots of `we don't mind rations the UK endured them in the war` comments from people who think having shortage of food ( if that should be the case) will be worth it and will all be jolly good fun.


Last weekend I happened to see the start of, "Antiques Roadshow" which brought up the war and the Dunkirk spirit. The look on her face seemed to imply how wonderful it all was.

Fiona Bruce might host Question Time, but bringing war time jingoistic propaganda into a programme on antiques was a bit much.

Funny to think those who go on about surviving two world Wars don't argue, "We" survived before the NHS was introduced".....


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417331
> 
> Sigh. Even the Tories appear to be moving on from their promises of sunlit uplands and unicorns. Their, "Get Ready for Brexit" £100m taxpayers' money promotion is a stuff of horrors, as if to say, "This is what you voted for, get over it".
> 
> Clearly, his days as Labour leader are numbered.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...or-party-to-have-two-deputy-leaders-live-news


*I cannot wait for the day he becomes PM. He can't do any worse than the bunch of idiots we've had for the last few years. *


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Soubry says 'white working (and uneducated) class' Leave voters have 'probably never even seen a migrant'


 Dosey cow must be best mates with Jo (insular, closed and selfish) Swinson. They come out with any old shite they like and get away with it. I never had a job where I could do that.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> It wasn't me who mentioned the war!!!
> 
> I think many will be angry and upset when they realise they were conned when the reality hits them. I remembered what happened with the Poll Tax which was also the, "Will of the people" seeing the Tories won a majority with that in the manifesto. No one complained it was undemocratic when it was eventually abolished!
> 
> But is the abuse necessary and justified? I've seen people give out Vote Leave leaflets (in 2016) and even someone handing out BNP leaflets. I politely declined, but didn't shower them with threats of violence nor verbal abuse, however much I despise everything they stand for.


Why are both sides (remainers and leavers) so interested provoking each other by handing out leaflets? Leaflets about what? The referendum happened in 2016 it is now over 3 years later and Brexit is happening one way or the other (with or without a deal).


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> I cannot wait for the day he becomes PM. He can't do any worse than the bunch of idiots we've had for the last few years.


 I read their 'popularity' was at its lowest since (I think) 1977. We thought no-one could be as bad as TM, but Boris is trying pretty hard. Just saying . . . !:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I cannot wait for the day he becomes PM. He can't do any worse than the bunch of idiots we've had for the last few years. *


You'll have a long wait unfortunately. If he survives another five years in opposition he'll be in his eighties by the time he has another chance.

I want the Tories out as much as you do, but the opposition parties need to work together and not against each other, or it'll be another five years of far right Tory rule I'm afraid.

Seems neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have learned they can't win on their own.

I've not forgotten David Steele's speech from 1987, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government" either....


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *I cannot wait for the day he becomes PM. He can't do any worse than the bunch of idiots we've had for the last few years. *


You'll have a long wait because according to the latest polls the UK Conservative party would win the next UK General Election with UK Lib Dems coming second and UK Labour party 3rd.


----------



## JANICE199

*Time will tell. I'll keep my hopes up. *


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> So now Jacob Rees-Mogg and the ERG are involved, or at least supportive of, drugs, human trafficking, arms, money laundering and terrorism funding?
> 
> Where are you reading this stuff?
> 
> Our PM does not have the kind of power you suggest. The U.K. has always been pushing for higher standards within the Eu. In fact it was one the reasons touted for staying in. We were supposed to stay in to improve standards across Europe and I think you yourself said to save Europe from Germany and France. Now we're scum of the Earth and our glorious leaders can't wait to turn Britain into some crime lord paradise?.


Deregulation wanted by ERG means " light touch regime" and we all know what is means in terms of capital?

The fewer regulations the more dodgy money?

It is all about facilitating?

Look what happened to Caymans after Panama papers?

Read about Aaron Banks, Brexit and ERG donor... if you curious where I read this stuff.
Read about Bow Group and their tied with Putin.

It is very interesting read: who bankrolled Brexit.

And why.


----------



## Elles

The wealthy and powerful are behind everything, of course they are. Britain is Britain. If we don't like it, we can vote in Jeremy instead.

https://www.icij.org/investigations...ries-labeled-tax-havens-in-parliament-report/


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It wasn't me who mentioned the war!!!
> 
> .


 Why do you feel the need to mention on here * everytime* someone allegedly mentions the war on twitter or on TV or whatever ?

I dont understand why you seem to mock people who mention "war time jingoistic propaganda" or want to mock The Dunkirk spirit, to mock ordinary people who risked their lives to save soldiers from dying .

Didn't your parents or grandparents ever talk to you about the war ? When you mock those who respect and understand what our relatives went through , you are mocking everyones relatives including your own. .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It wasn't me who mentioned the war!!!
> I remembered what happened with the Poll Tax which was also the, "Will of the people" seeing the Tories won a majority with that in the manifesto. No one complained it was undemocratic when it was eventually abolished!
> 
> .


There was a referendum on the poll tax , right ? I voted for it , oh wait, there wasnt one was there !


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Why do you feel the need to mention on here * everytime* someone allegedly mentions the war on twitter or on TV or whatever ?
> 
> I dont understand why you seem to mock people who mention "war time jingoistic propaganda" or want to mock The Dunkirk spirit, to mock ordinary people who risked their lives to save soldiers from dying .
> 
> Didn't your parents or grandparents ever talk to you about the war ? When you mock those who respect and understand what out forefathers went through , you are mocking them .


People in other European Countries do not want reminding about mistakes of the past or events that happened during the wars all the time. One thing positive happened from the 2nd war and that is European countries (including the United Kingdom) learnt how to work together.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> People in other European Countries do not want reminding about mistakes of the past or events that happened during the wars. One thing positive happened from the 2nd war and that is European countries learnt how to work together.


Well don't worry , Im sure they dont watch the Antique Road show  ! though they do remember past mistakes , they remember on 11/11 and every anniversary of events , the most recent was concerning the Netherlands .
I understand people don't want to glamourise war but there's a huge difference between glamourising and remembering and being grateful to those who suffered and those lost their lives.


----------



## Guest

People that glamourise the 2nd world war need to remember all these people faught for your freedom and lost their live:








Rows of war graves in Arnhem (British, and Dutch soldiers some of whom was only 17, 18 and 19 years old)
















This is only one cemetary in the Netherlands with hundreds of graves in it.

So when you keep going on about the war bear this in mind that people died for you. They paid the ultimate sacrifice for your freedom today.

There is nothing glamous about war.

The United Kingdom and Ireland did not live under Nazi control the rest of Europe did. Many civilians also got killed as well for being who they are.


----------



## kimthecat

@saartje Indeed. We have RAF and Anzac graves in our borough and it is heartbreaking to read the gravestones especially their ages , so young .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Why do you feel the need to mention on here * everytime* someone allegedly mentions the war on twitter or on TV or whatever ?
> 
> I dont understand why you seem to mock people who mention "war time jingoistic propaganda" or want to mock The Dunkirk spirit, to mock ordinary people who risked their lives to save soldiers from dying .
> 
> Didn't your parents or grandparents ever talk to you about the war ? When you mock those who respect and understand what our relatives went through , you are mocking everyones relatives including your own. .


I really think you should be targeting the Leavers who keep bringing up the war rather than myself. They do use it for jingoistic purposes.

I used to find the Fawlty Towers sketch, "Don't mention the war", funny. It's no further than the truth unfortunately.

And the government's, "Brexit War Cabinet" for goodness sake? The UK is not at war with the EU! Germany is not the country it was in the 1930s for one thing. Have you seen the pro Leave memes of the EU area covered by a swatstika?

Now, that's what I do find disgusting and offensive.

My grandmother, who sadly died in 1981, lived through the war and fully supported the European project.



kimthecat said:


> There was a referendum on the poll tax , right ? I voted for it , oh wait, there wasnt one was there !


But people vote on a manifesto and expect the government they elect to implement it on being elected. To be fair, the government at the time did implement what they promised. The Poll Tax, under the name of the Community Charge was actually popular with some quarters before its introduction, not only amongst the mega rich mansion owners who'd pay the same as someone living in a council flat.

When I hear criticism of the SNP over the likelihood of another independence referendum, they are again acting on a manifesto promise. That is to plan one in the event of the country being taken out of the EU against its wishes, which is exactly what's happening!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> @saartje Indeed. We have RAF and Anzac graves in our borough and it is heartbreaking to read the gravestones especially their ages , so young .


 Heartbreaking also to see what some people do to them: not just one isolated, brainless occasion either.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/war-graves-vandalised-just-days-before-d-day-commemorations-120531798.html


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> People that glamourise the 2nd world war need to remember all these people faught for your freedom and lost their live:
> View attachment 417346
> 
> Rows of war graves in Arnhem (British, and Dutch soldiers some of whom was only 17, 18 and 19 years old)
> View attachment 417347
> 
> View attachment 417348
> 
> This is only one cemetary in the Netherlands with hundreds of graves in it.
> 
> So when you keep going on about the war bear this in mind that people died for you. They paid the ultimate sacrifice for your freedom today.
> 
> There is nothing glamous about war.
> 
> The United Kingdom and Ireland did not live under Nazi control the rest of Europe did. Many civilians also got killed as well for being who they are.


So beautifully and respectfully tended.


----------



## KittenKong

Funnily enough, just looked up the Poll Tax on Wikipedia.

The overnight introduction does have comparisons with the proposed overnight implementation of Brexit, "Do or die".

They'll never learn....


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> some of whom was only 17, 18 and 19 years old)


 Some even younger: they lied about their age so they could enlist (they could leave school at 14) and many wanted to ''do their bit'': others thought it was a better ''prospect'' than working in a mill. Little more than children some of them.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> People that glamourise the 2nd world war need to remember all these people faught for your freedom and lost their live:
> View attachment 417346
> 
> Rows of war graves in Arnhem (British, and Dutch soldiers some of whom was only 17, 18 and 19 years old)
> View attachment 417347
> 
> View attachment 417348
> 
> This is only one cemetary in the Netherlands with hundreds of graves in it.
> 
> So when you keep going on about the war bear this in mind that people died for you. They paid the ultimate sacrifice for your freedom today.
> 
> There is nothing glamous about war.
> 
> The United Kingdom and Ireland did not live under Nazi control the rest of Europe did. Many civilians also got killed as well for being who they are.


Actually, that's very well said.

Do you think Germany is the country it was in the 1930s and the EU is a Nazi-like state?

This is what some leave groups are arguing in the UK and the UK having its, "Brexit war cabinet" as if they were actually at war....

Now, that's grossly offensive for those who did die in conflicts on all sides.


----------



## Elles

Do any of you watch this channel:






https://m.youtube.com/user/Producti...Ch3zww_H&csn=E3qHXabjEcHhxgL6_JyABw&wlfg=true

Not sure how to link channels on YouTube, but the channel this video is from.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong other European Countries do not need reminding of the past. Since the last world war the whole of Europe has learnt to work together to have peace in Europe. It has not admittedly been like this since the end of the war as there was many conflicts within Europe after the war.

Having been to Germany recently with my other half and my parents, life has moved on one would think from 1930's with it now being 2019.

People in other European countries get offended and upset when being reminded of the wars in Europe all the time. Yes in the Netherlands we respect liberation day, the day the Netherlands was liberated from Nazi control, young children lay flowers at the graves of the fallen soldiers and turn around and clap as a sign of respect for what the alied soldiers done. The United Kingdom Commonwealth War Committee and International War Grave Committee look after the grave sites to a very high standard.

But why is it necessary to go on about it all the time. Europe as a whole has moved on from the past and it certainly is not a topic of typical conversation over here in pubs, clubs, cafes, restuarants, at work or at home infact I have never heard any topics of conversation about the wars or what happened after it mentioned once amongst friends and colleagues and I have never had the conversation with my partner. It is not something you losely talk about. Yes you are taught about it at school I think to some degree children are taught about wars and conflicts so the mistakes of the past are hopefully not repeated in the future.

I will not be talking about the topic again on here (about the wars or what happend in Europe afterwards).



> Do you think Germany is the country it was in the 1930s and the EU is a Nazi-like state?


I did not live in 1930's Germany so cannot comment on this. The European Union is not like a Nazi state at all one would think although I do disagree with some of the visions of the hard core European leaders who dream up silly ideas one of whom I have mentioned in this thread.

I have just realised I have gone on a bit here so will close this post saying I am not prepared to discuss anything about wars again.

People don't live in the past they live in the here and now.


----------



## Elles

The brexiters are cut off at exactly 30 seconds, if 30 seconds is all they’re given. Remainers given one minute, carry on for nearly double that without interruption. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> People that glamourise the 2nd world war need to remember all these people faught for your freedom and lost their live:
> View attachment 417346
> 
> Rows of war graves in Arnhem (British, and Dutch soldiers some of whom was only 17, 18 and 19 years old)
> View attachment 417347
> 
> View attachment 417348
> 
> This is only one cemetary in the Netherlands with hundreds of graves in it.
> 
> So when you keep going on about the war bear this in mind that people died for you. They paid the ultimate sacrifice for your freedom today.
> 
> There is nothing glamous about war.
> 
> The United Kingdom and Ireland did not live under Nazi control the rest of Europe did. Many civilians also got killed as well for being who they are.


My elder son was only 10 years old when we visited the War Cemetery in Arnhem. I well remember him stopping at the grave of a 17 year old Polish soldier and saying in a shocked voice " Mummy look this soldier wasn't much older than me"!
.


----------



## Elles

Both of my sons fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.


----------



## Guest

The European Union is about 28 countries that have collectively worked together on many things and the United Kingdom has played a vital role in the European Union. It is a great shame the United Kingdom no longer wants to be part of the European Union as they have had a big voice in the decision making but the remaining countries in the European Union will carry on and so will the United Kingdom when it leaves the European Union.


----------



## Guest

I am sorry if I have board some people on here with my recent comments. I do see things from both sides of the brexit debate and keep a neutral stance on the subject.. I am finished for today, I promise :Muted


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Deregulation wanted by ERG means " light touch regime" and we all know what is means in terms of capital?
> 
> The fewer regulations the more dodgy money?
> 
> It is all about facilitating?
> 
> Look what happened to Caymans after Panama papers?
> 
> Read about Aaron Banks, Brexit and ERG donor... if you curious where I read this stuff.
> Read about Bow Group and their tied with Putin.
> 
> It is very interesting read: who bankrolled Brexit.
> And why.


This was after the Sunday Times accused the Bow Group of having ties to Putin. Unfortunately I can't copy the actual article because it's behind a paywall.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/7...-claim-but-say-we-must-stop-this-march-to-war

*Bow Group think tank say 'we must stop this blind march to war'*

Apology - Ben Harris-Quinney - 03 November 2016

On 31 October 2016 we published an article headlined "Top Tories 'had trips paid for by PUTIN' as Russian leader seeks to manipulate Britain". The article stated the "Bow Group, Britain's oldest think-tank, has also called for a 'co-operation agreement with Russian intelligence'" and "Ben Harris-Quinney, chairman of the Bow Group, also received an expenses-paid trip to Moscow two years ago to defend Moscow's anti-gay policies, the Sunday Times reported." We accept this was wrong and apologise. In fact, having spoken at a conference in Madrid in 2013, Mr Harris-Quinney was invited to Russia by a United States organisation called the 'World Congress of Families' (WCF) that promotes Christian values and marriage. The WCF are not involved or concerned with Anglo-Russian relations. The purpose of the trip to the United States was to contribute to a forum on the topic of christian values at Christ the Savior Cathedral. At that event Mr Harris-Quinney did not speak in favour of "Moscow anti-gay policies". Additionally we have been asked to clarify the Bow Group works with a wide range of governments, international conferences, organisations and publishes articles from a variety of conservative perspectives. The Bow Group state that it "always acts in the interests of conservatism and Great Britain."


----------



## KittenKong

Seems we can no longer view the BBC I player without having this bulls**t rammed down our throats.


----------



## KittenKong

More sunlit uplands to endure.
Seems we're going back to the days of holidays for the wealthy with Butlins for the rest.

The Benidorm visiting Brexit voters would love that!








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...edit-card-users-uk-dominic-raab-a8504261.html


----------



## kimthecat

@saartje 
"I am sorry if I have board some people on here with my recent comments. I do see things from both sides of the brexit debate and keep a neutral stance on the subject.. I am finished for today, I promise :Muted "

Im done with this thread for the day too.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seems we can no longer view the BBC I player without having this bulls**t rammed down our throats.
> View attachment 417380


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


>


It's just another rant about "the media", move along.


----------



## cheekyscrip

On another note... is Corbyn losing the plot?


Can’t Labour stop the infighting at this very moment?


No one ever won elections by sitting on the fence!!!!


Just my opinion. Needed a rant.


Abolish private schools? That is the plan???

At this very moment????


Lock him up.:Banghead


----------



## Elles

They are like crazed jealous fanatics. Every child should get the equivalent education to the one children get in private schools not the other way around. Why should poor people pay for wealthy children’s education if the parents want to pay extra for it? People pay for their children to be educated world wide, but in Britain Labour want all kids educated in state schools and probably indoctrinated into leftie socialism, by biased teachers too. Our politics are terrible at the moment. Parliament is full of extremists on all sides.

I agree about Corbyn sitting on the fence. For the many? He’s not for any.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> They are like crazed jealous fanatics. Every child should get the equivalent education to the one children get in private schools not the other way around. Why should poor people pay for wealthy children's education if the parents want to pay extra for it? People pay for their children to be educated world wide, but in Britain Labour want all kids educated in state schools and probably indoctrinated into leftie socialism, by biased teachers too. Our politics are terrible at the moment. Parliament is full of extremists on all sides.
> 
> I agree about Corbyn sitting on the fence. For the many? He's not for any.


Hmm! May I in the nicest possible way point out that not all kids educated at private schools have wealthy parents - unless of course things have drastically changed since I was at school.

I went to a private school and my parents were far from wealthy and the same was true for the 12 girls in my class. My father was a salesman and my best friend's father was a bus conductor, Other fathers worked in the bank or for the corporation. I know my parents as well as the others sacrificed a lot in order to send us there.

The one thing all parents had in common was the wish that their children had a better education than they had received


----------



## havoc

I was educated privately as were my three children. That’s four lots of education which didn’t have to be funded by the state.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> On another note... is Corbyn losing the plot?
> 
> Can't Labour stop the infighting at this very moment?
> 
> No one ever won elections by sitting on the fence!!!!
> 
> Just my opinion. Needed a rant.
> 
> Abolish private schools? That is the plan???
> 
> At this very moment????
> 
> Lock him up.:Banghead


He knows his days are numbered. Whatever he does he'll not win anyway, so he might as well campaign for what he believes in, which could be a considerable help to the Lib Dems for their direct Revoke A50 policy as that's as clear as the Tories and Farage policy of Brexit with no PV.

Asking an obsolete politician, still stuck in the days where the Labour left supported withdrawal from the EEC 40 years ago, is like asking me to support Brexit. An impossibility!

As for the proposal to abolish private schools, that's a bit silly. I wonder what Diane Abbott would have to say about that. I understand Corbyn was also educated privately?

Would be better to work on improving the existing education sector, looking towards other European countries for inspiration to include learning other languages from the outset.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> He knows his days are numbered. Whatever he does he'll not win anyway, so he might as well campaign for what he believes in, which could be a considerable help to the Lib Dems for their direct Revoke A50 policy as that's as clear as the Tories and Farage policy of Brexit with no PV.
> 
> Asking an obsolete politician, still stuck in the days where the Labour left supported withdrawal from the EEC 40 years ago, is like asking me to support Brexit. An impossibility!
> 
> As for the proposal to abolish private schools, that's a bit silly. I wonder what Diane Abbott would have to say about that. I understand Corbyn was also educated privately?
> 
> Would be better to work on improving the existing education sector, looking towards other European countries for inspiration to include learning other languages from the outset.


*
"Would be better to work on improving the existing education sector, looking towards other European countries for inspiration to include learning other languages from the outset".*

I stand to be corrected but I understand learning a second language is compulsory in all UK primary schools!

https://theconversation.com/norther...rn-a-second-language-in-primary-school-119143

*Northern Ireland risks being left behind because children are not required to learn a second language in primary school*


----------



## kimthecat

We did French in Primary school , that was the 60s .


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted- posted in the wrong thread


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> We did French in Primary school , that was the 60s .


Clearly, they must have been a postcode lottery for this sort of thing. We certainly didn't in Primary school and Spanish wasn't taught even when I in high school.

The ability of people in many Scandanavian countries to speak other languages fluently and elsewhere puts us to shame.


----------



## KittenKong

a








https://www.thelocal.fr/20190923/ma...six-months-healthcare-cover-in-no-deal-brexit


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Hmm! May I in the nicest possible way point out that not all kids educated at private schools have wealthy parents - unless of course things have drastically changed since I was at school.
> 
> I went to a private school and my parents were far from wealthy and the same was true for the 12 girls in my class. My father was a salesman and my best friend's father was a bus conductor, Other fathers worked in the bank or for the corporation. I know my parents as well as the others sacrificed a lot in order to send us there.
> 
> The one thing all parents had in common was the wish that their children had a better education than they had received


Where did I say only wealthy parents send their kids to private school? I said why should poor people pay for wealthy people's kids, if the wealthy want to pay for it. Obviously we'll all have to pay more if wealthy folk aren't allowed to pay and have to send their kids to state school.

I'm talking exclusively about wealthy people who send their kids to private school. Not all private school students.

As I sent my son to a private school, when I lived in a council house and didn't have a car, or expensive tv, or go on holiday, so that I could pay for it, lol, I'm not talking about us. Later I paid for my daughter to go to music academy instead of a state college too. I struggled to do it and when everything went tits up, if my eldest hadn't lent me £1500 I would have been bankrupt.

Poor people could pay for my kid's education, because I was poor too. It would be a silly argument saying why should poor people pay for poor people's kids to be educated. 

ETA at least in this context. People can argue about anything. Like why should the wealthy childless pay for a poor person's 7 kids to be educated. Because those 7 kids might be 7 surgeons who save your life, blah, blah blah.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The Benidorm visiting Brexit voters would love that!


Here we go again! What about the Benidorm-visiting Remainers? Or do they not exist? Is that because they are not working class peasants? Comments like this piss me right off.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> The Benidorm visiting Brexit voters would love that!


This is what I mean about provoking people. You are making comments to get a reaction which you probably won't like from Leave supporters or Brexit Supporters.

Why provoke people with comments like this?

Why single out Brexit supporters, I am sure many remain supporters enjoy going to Benidorm to?

Instead of sniping at Brexit supporters be constructive by providing informative posts on things you have knowledge about instead of posts with newspaper clippings and comments off twitter and facebook. Sniping at people will just put their backs up. It does nothing for your cause (whatever that maybe) making mocking or sniping comments.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Where did I say only wealthy parents send their kids to private school? I said why should poor people pay for wealthy people's kids, if the wealthy want to pay for it. Obviously we'll all have to pay more if wealthy folk aren't allowed to pay and have to send their kids to state school.
> 
> I'm talking exclusively about wealthy people who send their kids to private school. Not all private school students.
> 
> As I sent my son to a private school, when I lived in a council house and didn't have a car, or expensive tv, or go on holiday, so that I could pay for it, lol, I'm not talking about us. Later I paid for my daughter to go to music academy instead of a state college too. I struggled to do it and when everything went tits up, if my eldest hadn't lent me £1500 I would have been bankrupt.
> 
> Poor people could pay for my kid's education, because I was poor too. It would be a silly argument saying why should poor people pay for poor people's kids to be educated.
> 
> ETA at least in this context. People can argue about anything. Like why should the wealthy childless pay for a poor person's 7 kids to be educated. Because those 7 kids might be 7 surgeons who save your life, blah, blah blah.


 My apologies if I offended you, it wasn't my intention.

I'm afraid one thing that always annoyed me was the assumption because I received a private education, my parents must be extremely wealthy. which wasn't the case, and I think that assumption is still alive today! I simply wished to point out that it's not true.

Believe you me I know what it's like, I worked three jobs, 6 days a week to pay for my two sons education and at the end of each month I was lucky if I had 50p left in the bank!


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> My apologies if I offended you, it wasn't my intention.
> 
> I'm afraid one thing that always annoyed me was the assumption because I received a private education, my parents must be extremely wealthy. which wasn't the case, and I think that assumption is still alive today! I simply wished to point out that it's not true.
> 
> Believe you me I know what it's like, I worked three jobs, 6 days a week to pay for my two sons education and at the end of each month I was lucky if I had 50p left in the bank!


Lol, no you didn't offend me, I offended you, because you assumed I thought only rich kids go private. 

I wasn't talking about us, nor are Labour when they moan about private schools.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> nor are Labour when they moan about private schools


They are talking about me


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Here we go again! What about the Benidorm-visiting Remainers? Or do they not exist? Is that because they are not working class peasants? Comments like this piss me right off.


I visit Benidorm too.

I was referring to the leave voters who visit actually.

Those on moderate incomes, such as myself might not be able to travel to Spain, or indeed outside the UK in the future.

I have absolutely no sympathy for leave voters who find themselves in that predicament. They knew what they voted for after all.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> They are talking about me


Probably. They're trying to rile the masses up against anyone who might be a bit better off than they are. Their for the many, not the few, should be classed as inciting hate, discriminating against anyone who has a few bob and telling them how to spend it. They can get lost imo. The politics of envy.


----------



## Elles

Now, we were talking about Russia.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/09/france-says-time-has-come-ease-tensions-russia/

https://www.euractiv.com/section/gl...acron-makes-russia-a-top-diplomatic-priority/

The Eu and Macron want Russia, so we probably don't need to worry about it.


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Abolish private schools?


 So that would be another half a million spaces needed in state schools (whatever that would cost).


----------



## Calvine

On a lighter note: is it just me, or is Corbyn looking daily more and more like Albert Steptoe?


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> So that would be another half a million spaces needed in state schools (whatever that would cost).


By the time the rich have paid for everything Labour want to do, including extra spaces in state schools, menopausal women's days off, everyone to have a set amount before they work and other ideas that have been tried elsewhere and abandoned as not working, there'll be no rich, which is the point isn't it?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> menopausal women's days off


 Yes, I read something about this. I think it's to do with how you are raised. After I had had measles/chickenpox etc I never had a single day off school (or university). My neighbour picks her son up early from school just to get his hair cut . . . no kidding! I couldn't believe it.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> On a lighter note: is it just me, or is Corbyn looking daily more and more like Albert Steptoe?


No it's not just you.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Are you suffering from Corbynism? Try our symptom checker*
23rd September 2019









*Funny feelings in your tummy*
Do people who are centrists or even slightly left-of-centre make your tummy feel a bit funny? Like you think they're worse than Hitler and Darth Vader combined, and you want them dead?

*Intermittent blindness*
Are you critical of the mainstream media but endlessly repost articles from left-leaning websites that have the journalistic credibility of _In The Night Garden_?

*Confusion*
Are your thoughts muddy and unclear? Do you find yourself saying things like "the British, French and German governments are lying to us, but Russia is telling the truth"?

*Memory loss*
This symptom particularly affects Remain voters. They forget things like how Corbyn's level of excitement for a second Referendum is so small it can't even be measured by the Large Hadron Collider.

*Fits of anger*
Did a bad man say something dirty about Mr Corbyn? Or maybe they've just raised some legitmate concerns about anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Either way you'll find yourself awake at 2am, naked and tweeting horrific abuse at them.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> On a lighter note: is it just me, or is Corbyn looking daily more and more like Albert Steptoe?


My thought exactly !! Separated at birth ?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> No it's not just you.


Hahaha! They could be twins.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> My thought exactly !! Separated at birth ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 417468


Albert Steptoe was a Tory!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Albert Steptoe was a Tory!


 and a dirty old man! :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

I read a while ago on here about some people blaming Brexit for medicine shortages. Well there are medicine shortages now in the European Union and yes we have medicine shortages here in the Netherlands and that is nothing to do with Brexit.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/09/shortages-of-medicines-are-growing-problem-warns-minister/


----------



## Guest

British Nationals are dismayed this evening after the Dutch Parliament decided not to allow dual nationality for British citizens. Dual nationality is only allowed to British citizens under exceptional circumstances at the moment but this looks like it is changing. Too many political parties opposed this so it has been dropped in the new draft legislation.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...-dismayed-by-dual-nationality-change-of-plan/


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I read a while ago on here about some people blaming Brexit for medicine shortages. Well there are medicine shortages now in the European Union and yes we have medicine shortages here in the Netherlands and that is nothing to do with Brexit.
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/09/shortages-of-medicines-are-growing-problem-warns-minister/


I posted about the shortages a few months ago together with an article about severe shortages in France. As you say nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit despite what some people claim!

Another reason for the shortages which are worldwide is the massive increase in the use of antibiotics in poorer countries.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/...ncreased-sparking-fears-worldwide-resistance/

*Global antibiotic use has increased - sparking fears of worldwide resistance*

Between 2000 and 2015, antibiotic consumption increased by 65% from 21.1 billion defined daily doses (DDDs) - eg a single antibiotic capsule or injection - of antibiotics to 34.8 billion DDDs. The antibiotic consumption rate increased by 39% from 11.3 to 15.7 DDDs per 1,000 inhabitants per day.

The primary driver of the increase in global consumption was the increased consumption in low-middle income countries:


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> I posted about the shortages a few months ago together with an article about severe shortages in France. As you say nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit despite what some people claim!
> 
> Another reason for the shortages which are worldwide is the massive increase in the use of antibiotics in poorer countries.
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/...ncreased-sparking-fears-worldwide-resistance/
> 
> *Global antibiotic use has increased - sparking fears of worldwide resistance*
> 
> Between 2000 and 2015, antibiotic consumption increased by 65% from 21.1 billion defined daily doses (DDDs) - eg a single antibiotic capsule or injection - of antibiotics to 34.8 billion DDDs. The antibiotic consumption rate increased by 39% from 11.3 to 15.7 DDDs per 1,000 inhabitants per day.
> 
> The primary driver of the increase in global consumption was the increased consumption in low-middle income countries:


I am just catching up with what has been said by reading previous posts and making my own comments on them and providing proof to show that it is not Brexit to blame. Sorry for dragging up past conversations on here.

Yes I saw you post and it is true it is a global shortage of drugs.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Yes I saw you post and it is true it is a global shortage of drugs.


When my cat was due to have a dental procedure, (February) I was told there was a waiting list, that emergencies were being prioritised, due to a shortage of anaesthetic gas (isoflurane). Thinking that this would be something that would be blamed, if possible, on Brexit by some, I asked the reason for the shortage. It was a manufacturing problem in fact.


----------



## kimthecat

Leave EU cleared of wrong doing about funding. 

I agree with Labour being neutral .


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Leave EU cleared of wrong doing about funding.
> 
> I agree with Labour being neutral .


What's happened to the investigations into the Remain side. Apparently they shuffled money around and spent double what they should have, but I haven't seen much about it, with most of our media being Remain biased.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> What's happened to the investigations into the Remain side. Apparently they shuffled money around and spent double what they should have, but I haven't seen much about it, with most of our media being Remain biased.


You have proof.......... 
and as for the media, they say what ever the tories want them to say.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> You have proof..........
> and as for the media, they say what ever the tories want them to say.


I don't have proof they spent the money, but that's not what I mean. When there are ongoing investigations into the brexit side, it's widely reported as though they're already found guilty. Any investigations into the remain side are kept quiet.

The Tories are totally divided over brexit, many want to stay in the Eu, more than want to leave. The Tories ran the Remain campaign and spent £9m of public money promoting remain, outside of the Remain spend. So which Tories control the media? The bbc and channel 4 have been clearly remain biased in their programmes.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I agree with Labour being neutral .


Funnily enough, so do I. Corbyn's come up with a lot of criticism for this, as he would have done whatever was decided.
I've pointed out, by not openly supporting remaining, he's not openly supporting leaving either with a U-turn on the PV with the option to remain they've proposed.

Some remainers, I fail to understand why, don't like the stance adopted by Swinson. I think it's a masterstroke that'll work in her favour personally speaking, but not sufficient to win a GE on her own.

If people don't like the Revoke stance, don't vote Lib Dems! Simple.

It gives a clearer choice of Tory/Farage- no deal Brexit, no PV, Lib Dems- Revoke and remain, no PV and Labour- Deal that'll be put to the people with a Revoke and No Deal option.



Elles said:


> What's happened to the investigations into the Remain side. Apparently they shuffled money around and spent double what they should have, but I haven't seen much about it, with most of our media being Remain biased.


The Remain campaign was utterly pathetic. It didn't help when Cameron appeared to lead it, which, arguably, Corbyn is right to keep out of both sides of the debate in future.

You are so very wrong when you say most of the media are remain biased! ALL the mainstream tabloids, with the possible exception of the Mirror, backed Leave, plus the Times and Telegraph. They are amongst the best selling papers in the UK. OK- The Sun isn't sold in Liverpool which is instrumental in the City voting to remain. Says it all doesn't it!

To the best of my knowledge, the only papers to back remain were the Independent and Guardian.

Then, there's social media and of course the BBC especially who are very pro Leave. You only have to look at their hideous graphics of the Union flag being, "Freed" from the EU star.

You can't tell me many weren't influenced by these front pages?


----------



## Guest

I understand all the arguements for leaving the European Union and all the arguements against.

The last referendum was not planned properly, the leave side lead a campaign of lies and no doubt lies got told on the remain side to and no leave plans put in place.

An extension needs to be requested off the European Union and a second referendum put to the people of United Kingdom with the option to leave with no deal, leave with the deal Theresa May negotiated and the option to remain as well.

If the decision is then to leave so be it, set a date and leave. Putting it back to the United Kingdoms public in a binding referendum which will then mean Parliament would have to act upon it regardless of the MPs feelings on the subject.

The other option should be Parliament get to vote on the deal again and no deal but make the votes binding so they are not going around in circles voting on the same things over and over again.

A general election either way is also needed.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Some remainers, I fail to understand why, don't like the stance adopted by Swinson. I think it's a masterstroke that'll work in her favour personally speaking, but not sufficient to win a GE on her own.
> 
> If people don't like the Revoke stance, don't vote Lib Dems! Simple.


It is a dangerous idea thats why people don't like Swinsons plan. At least let the people have a say in a referendum. She plans to sweep into power and revoke article 50 without letting the people of the United Kingdom have a say. Very dangerous move.

At least Corbyn has said Labour will remain neuteral and the Labour members voted this yesterday. Very wise idea to remain neuteral.


----------



## Elles

Social media and the bbc (and channel 4) are pro remain. Brexit and moderate right YouTube influencers are being censored. The newspapers aren’t that widely read any more. Every single household got the Remain pamphlet. Research into the result say that 3% of Conservative voters (who voted remain) changed their minds from leave to remain based on the leaflet.

If that is the case, I have to agree that current affairs influenced quite a few people, even if many had made up their minds long before the referendum and was the reason for the referendum in the first place.

I personally have no issue with voting in a second referendum. My main problem with it is that they didn’t act on the first one and invalidating the first negates the efforts of over 17 million people who voted to leave and the efforts of all who worked and campaigned hard to give us this once in a lifetime opportunity to leave the Eu. 

I’m very uncomfortable with what it says about the ruling classes in this country. We should leave first, then campaign to return, not be doing this.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Labour to abolish all posh people except Phoebe Waller-Bridge*
24th September 2019









*THE Labour conference has voted that all posh people will be made into commoners with the exception of Phoebe Waller-Bridge.*

The latest policy prounouncement means that aristocrats and their titles will be liquidated and their inheritances nationalised, apart from the Emmy-winning _Fleabag_ writer and star.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said: "The landed gentry have been a scourge of the working man ever since the enclosures of the 13th century. But my God, when she turns to the camera it gets you right there, doesn't it?

"It's ending injustice, pure and simple. Which really is what _Fleabag's_ all about, so Waller-Bridge clearly gets it and she can stay and be made, I don't know, a Baroness?

"Jeremy is more of a _Killing Eve_ fan but there's no argument that she simply owns television in 2019, even if she is plummier than a greengrocers' in September.

"I can't wait for her Bond film. He's a misogynist colonialist relic and all that, but I bet she'll make it brilliant."

Prominent Labour figures are thought to be working on dispensation appeals for other posh-but-popular characters like Stephen Fry and Joanna Lumley, but have been warned they will probably get the guillotine.


----------



## CollieSlave

Elles said:


> I don't have proof they spent the money, but that's not what I mean. When there are ongoing investigations into the brexit side, it's widely reported as though they're already found guilty. Any investigations into the remain side are kept quiet.
> 
> The Tories are totally divided over brexit, many want to stay in the Eu, more than want to leave. The Tories ran the Remain campaign and spent £9m of public money promoting remain, outside of the Remain spend. So which Tories control the media? *The bbc and channel 4 have been clearly remain biased* in their programmes.





KittenKong said:


> Funnily enough, so do I. Corbyn's come up with a lot of criticism for this, as he would have done whatever was decided.
> I've pointed out, by not openly supporting remaining, he's not openly supporting leaving either with a U-turn on the PV with the option to remain they've proposed.
> 
> Some remainers, I fail to understand why, don't like the stance adopted by Swinson. I think it's a masterstroke that'll work in her favour personally speaking, but not sufficient to win a GE on her own.
> 
> If people don't like the Revoke stance, don't vote Lib Dems! Simple.
> 
> It gives a clearer choice of Tory/Farage- no deal Brexit, no PV, Lib Dems- Revoke and remain, no PV and Labour- Deal that'll be put to the people with a Revoke and No Deal option.
> 
> The Remain campaign was utterly pathetic. It didn't help when Cameron appeared to lead it, which, arguably, Corbyn is right to keep out of both sides of the debate in future.
> 
> You are so very wrong when you say most of the media are remain biased! ALL the mainstream tabloids, with the possible exception of the Mirror, backed Leave, plus the Times and Telegraph. They are amongst the best selling papers in the UK. OK- The Sun isn't sold in Liverpool which is instrumental in the City voting to remain. Says it all doesn't it!
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the only papers to back remain were the Independent and Guardian.
> 
> Then, there's social media and of course the *BBC especially who are very pro Leave*. You only have to look at their hideous graphics of the Union flag being, "Freed" from the EU star.
> 
> You can't tell me many weren't influenced by these front pages?
> 
> View attachment 417528
> View attachment 417529
> View attachment 417530


Love it!! *"BBC remain biased"* and "*BBC especially ... very pro Leave*"!!!!!!! Seems to me a reasonable conclusion is that the BBC have the balance about right!!


----------



## Elles

CollieSlave said:


> Love it!! *"BBC remain biased"* and "*BBC especially ... very pro Leave*"!!!!!!! Seems to me a reasonable conclusion is that the BBC have the balance about right!!


http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/pro...ut-in-bbc-news-programmes-new-analysis-shows/

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...liberal-bias-days-after-retiring-from-radio-4

Is your ! key stuck?


----------



## CollieSlave

Elles said:


> http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/pro...ut-in-bbc-news-programmes-new-analysis-shows/
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...liberal-bias-days-after-retiring-from-radio-4
> 
> Is your ! key stuck?


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kimthecat

CollieSlave said:


> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:Hilarious


----------



## Elles

And your caps lock.  :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

CollieSlave said:


> Love it!! *"BBC remain biased"* and "*BBC especially ... very pro Leave*"!!!!!!! Seems to me a reasonable conclusion is that the BBC have the balance about right!!


Far from it, but Brexit supporters would argue the same. Leadsom argued they weren't jingoistic enough on their promotion of Brexit. Could have fooled me!

The BBC were instrumental in bringing modern day fascists like Farage from the gutter into the mainstream. They even gave oxygen to the likes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.

Most certainly a far right propaganda machine.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The BBC are starting to worry me, they are getting as bad as The Sun.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Far from it, but Brexit supporters would argue the same. Leadsom argued they weren't jingoistic enough on their promotion of Brexit. Could have fooled me!
> 
> The BBC were instrumental in bringing modern day fascists like Farage from the gutter into the mainstream. They even gave oxygen to the likes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.
> 
> Most certainly a far right propaganda machine.


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/

*LEFT-CENTER BIAS*

These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Left-Center sources.


*Overall, we rate the BBC Left-Center biased based on story selection that slightly favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information.*
*Detailed Report*
Factual Reporting: *HIGH*
Country: *United Kingdom*
World Press Freedom Rank: *UK 40/180*

*History*

Founded in 1922 by John Reith, The British Broadcasting Company is Britain's public broadcaster. The company later became the British Broadcasting Corporation. The British Broadcasting Company (BBC) began its daily radio transmissions in 1922. The BBC currently provides television, radio, online services throughout Britain and overseas and is headquartered in the Broadcasting House, London, United Kingdom.

The BBC began the world's first regular television service in 1932. During the second world war, TV broadcasting was suspended and BBC radio was an important source for news and entertainment. The BBC held a monopoly on television in Great Britain until 1954 and on radio until 1972.

*Funded by / Ownership*

The BBC operates under a Royal Charter, which is renewed every 10 years. The Royal Charter abolished the BBC Trust and the regulatory functions of the BBC Trust were transferred to The Office of Communications or Ofcom, in 2017. The operations of the BBC are governed by a board of directors, consisting of thirteen people. Currently, the former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England David Clementi is the Chairman of the BBC and Tony Hall is the Director-General of the BBC (Editor-in-Chief ). The BBC is financed by consumer licence fees on broadcasting receivers (1947 Wireless and Telegraphy Act) which enables BBC's UK services to be free of advertisements and independent of shareholder and political interests.

*Analysis / Bias*

In review, both sides of the political spectrum have accused BBC of either having a liberal bias or conservative bias. For example, an Evening Standard article based on an interview with a former BBC employee, describes the BBC as a "Nest of Lefties promoting a progressive agenda and political correctness." According to a Times of London article the BBC is biased against Israel, therefore it has a left bias. The BBC states in their editorial guidelines that they are impartial and free from both political and commercial influence. The BBC also has an Executive Complaints Unit in which the Daily Mail published an article regarding how the complaints unit works. The article states "There was also a sharp increase in accusations of political bias and religious prejudice." The BBC then wrote a response to the Daily Mail article: "The Mail also said that the figures 'showed the level of dissatisfaction over issues such as left-wing bias, offensive content and inaccuracy'. In fact there is a very wide range of reasons why people complain. For example we often get complaints of 'bias' about the same programme from two or more opposing sides of the many issues we cover, not just 'left wing'".

According to New Statesman research, which was examining the impartiality of BBC's reporting shows that in certain areas they lean right, such as business, immigration, and religion. Examples of right bias, includes the BBC being accused of doctoring the image of Jeremy Corbyn, who serves as Leader of the Labour Party (Corbyn identifies as a democratic socialist) wearing a Russian style cap in front of a Moscow skyline to make him look more Russian. BBC rejected the complaints by claiming the decision to publish Corbyn in a "Lenin-style cap in front of the Moscow skyline was not designed to convey an impression of pro-Russian sympathy on Corbyn's part, but was in keeping with an editorial decision made on the basis of sound news judgment".

When reporting general news the BBC always sources its information and uses minimal loaded words in headlines such as this: Trump chief of staff John Kelly to leave White House job. When it comes to reporting on the USA and in particular President Donald Trump, there is a negative tone directed at Trump and his policies. In general, the BBC covers both sides of stories, with a slight bias in favor of the left.

A factual search reveals that the BBC has never failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the BBC Left-Center biased based on story selection that slightly favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information. (5/15/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 12/8/2018)

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news


----------



## Elles

There you go, slightly left of centre and anti brexit. From fact check, Civitas and John Humphry, so nothing to worry about and although I never look at the Sun, from posts here I’m assuming it’s the opposite of the bbc.


----------



## havoc

Generally people consider any source which agrees with their own views to be unbiased - plenty of Americans believe Fox News is factually correct and unbiased.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Generally people consider any source which agrees with their own views to be unbiased - plenty of Americans believe Fox News is factually correct and unbiased.


Don't I know it`

My American cousin's wife thinks Trump's the greatest thing since slice bread, and believes that every word against him is a lie!:Arghh


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Generally people consider any source which agrees with their own views to be unbiased - plenty of Americans believe Fox News is factually correct and unbiased.


Which, ironically, often means that the least biased sources are the ones regarded as biased by BOTH sides...


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Which, ironically, often means that the least biased sources are the ones regarded as biased by BOTH sides...


I regard all media not just from the UK, but worldwide to be biased to some degree.

I remember living in southern Spain at the time of the Falkland war, the Spanish TV news would give you one version of what was happening and the Gibraltar TV (English) would give a totally different report.

At one point according to the Spanish news the Argentinians had shot down more Harrier Jump jets than the RAF owned!


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Which, ironically, often means that the least biased sources are the ones regarded as biased by BOTH sides...


I guess people being blind to the Nazi- like propaganda utilised by the media and others, often accuse their opponents they call the, "Enemies of the people" of being Nazis. Like what happened to Anna Soubry for instance.

Yesterday I encountered another, "We'll be fine, "we" fought and won two World Wars".....

#_&!+!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I regard all media not just from the UK, but worldwide to be biased to some degree.
> 
> I remember living in southern Spain at the time of the Falkland war, the Spanish TV news would give you one version of what was happening and the Gibraltar TV (English) would give a totally different report.
> 
> At one point according to the Spanish news the Argentinians had shot down more Harrier Jump jets than the RAF owned!


Oh, absolutely! All sources are inherently biased in some way. It just amuses me that the ones which, from an analytical point of view, are regarded as least biased will be the ones regarded as biased against them by both extremes of view


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I guess people being blind to the Nazi- like propaganda utilised by the media and others, often accuse their opponents they call the, "Enemies of the people" of being Nazis. Like what happened to Anna Soubry for instance.
> 
> Yesterday I encountered another, "We'll be fine, "we" fought and won two World Wars".....
> 
> #_&!+!


I suggest you read this .....

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-confirmation-bias-2795024

*How Confirmation Bias Works*
*We interpret facts to confirm our beliefs*

Confirmation biases impact how we gather information, but they also influence how we interpret and recall information. For example, people who support or oppose a particular issue will not only seek information to support it, they will also interpret news stories in a way that upholds their existing ideas. They will also remember details in a way that reinforces these attitudes.


----------



## Elles

I don’t read the papers, but I think of the Mail and the Guardian as being slightly right and slightly left, but not particularly biased, the mail more likely to report on the Kardashians and Trump and the Guardian more likely to report on Greta Thunberg and the Greens. I think of the Sun and the Star(does it still exist?) as being sensationalist and the Telegraph and Times as being grey. My opinion is based on other people’s opinions of them and the odd article I find when I’m looking something up. I’m not even sure what papers exist today.  

If someone says that someone else said something, I try to look for the actual speech, interview, or statement, rather than take their word and interpretation and I think all reporters put on their own slant and (mis)interpretations regularly. I’m just watching a programme about Bill Gates on Netflix. What an incredible person.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yesterday I encountered another, "We'll be fine, "we" fought and won two World Wars".....
> 
> #_&!+!


Where do you meet all these people , do you go out everyday and looking for strangers to talk about Brexit?

Oh by the way , TV series about the war on sunday , your favourite subject ! Enjoy !


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Where do you meet all these people , do you go out everyday and looking for strangers to talk about Brexit?
> 
> Oh by the way , TV series about the war on sunday , your favourite subject ! Enjoy !


Yes, I saw an extract of that! I'll avoid it like the plague.

The ultimate was John Finch's, "A Family At War", from 1970-72. Made by, and starring a cast that lived through it, it was an accurate portrayal.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Where do you meet all these people , do you go out everyday and looking for strangers to talk about Brexit?
> 
> Oh by the way , TV series about the war on sunday , your favourite subject ! Enjoy !


The word ''encounter'' does rather sound as tho' it was an unexpected meeting with a stranger.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> The word ''encounter'' does rather sound as tho' it was an unexpected meeting with a stranger.


And how does one sort out the Leavers from the Remainers in a place like Benidorm.

As you get off the plane do they ask you where your allegiances lie and if Remain slap an EU flag sticker on your forehead one wonders? 

The mind boggles!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Just watching the House of Commons live. They are back in and just shouting at each other, with Bercow enjoying being centre stage again. No debate about Brexit.

Over three years have gone since the referendum and we've got nowhere and we're going nowhere.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I saw an extract of that! I'll avoid it like the plague.
> 
> The ultimate was John Finch's, "A Family At War", from 1970-72. Made by, and starring a cast that lived through it, it was an accurate portrayal.


BTW I dont think people will cope. We've become "spoilt" in a way , many now have cars and white goods and we order stuff online and it comes the next day .
Younger ones perhaps will find it the hardest . Ive experienced electricity cuts , bread and petrol shortage , rubbish piling up in the streets so it wouldnt be a shock to me .

ETA Family at War. Id forgotten about that.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Just watching the House of Commons live. They are back in and just shouting at each other, with Bercow enjoying being centre stage again. No debate about Brexit.
> 
> Over three years have gone since the referendum and we've got nowhere and we're going nowhere.


Well the fun will begin when Boris arrives. At the moment he's at No 10 changing his underpants and wondering whether he needs to take another pair .... just in case!


----------



## kimthecat

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Just watching the House of Commons live. They are back in and just shouting at each other, with Bercow enjoying being centre stage again. No debate about Brexit.
> 
> Over three years have gone since the referendum and we've got nowhere and we're going nowhere.


I might watch that later , Im watching repeats of the Bill and waiting for PC Bradley to nabbed for murder


----------



## Elles

Well I’m sorry, but logging on every morning to page after page of rants from Facebook and Twitter became really depressing. I ended up with people on ignore, which took other posts out of context and made them look ranty too, when there were no posts between them. I’m sorry if I overreacted and it led to more moderate posters leaving.  However, the forum is more pleasant and the odd extremist rant I can put up with, so selfishly I’m quite happy with it like this. It gives me food for thought, rather than a wall to bang my head against.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> BTW I dont think people will cope. We've become "spoilt" in a way , many now have cars and white goods and we order stuff online and it comes the next day .
> Younger ones perhaps will find it the hardest . Ive experienced electricity cuts , bread and petrol shortage , rubbish piling up in the streets so it wouldnt be a shock to me .
> 
> ETA Family at War. Id forgotten about that.


Indeed. Young people who voted leave, we met a 24 year old yesterday, have absolutely no idea of what's coming to them. I don't think they're going to like it!


----------



## stuaz

Calvine said:


> The word ''encounter'' does rather sound as tho' it was an unexpected meeting with a stranger.


Or more likely Twitter/Facebook


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. Young people who voted leave, we met a 24 year old yesterday, have absolutely no idea of what's coming to them. I don't think they're going to like it!


Yes , its going to be Sodom and Gommorah or rather Sod'em and Gommorah!

You meet a lot of people , are you on your way to St Ives ? You'll be meeting the man with seven wives next 

Its friendly Up North! perhaps its because I live in Greater London and strangers dont say hello , let alone have a conversation.

Im just think about when you say , I dont feel European . I was born in Middlesex and it changed to Greater London. I will never really be a Londoner .
But really , feeling something is a state of mind. You're still European .


----------



## Jesthar

It's honestly not that hard to hear a weird and wonderful range of viewpoints on Brexit, all I have to do is keep my ears open whilst going about daily life. And I don't even go to the pub, where I suspect one could hear a lot more...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> It's honestly not that hard to hear a weird and wonderful range of viewpoints on Brexit, all I have to do is keep my ears open whilst going about daily life. And I don't even go to the pub, where I suspect one could hear a lot more...


There used to be a pub on every corner . Most of the pubs have shut here and flats have been built on the land.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> There used to be a pub on every corner . Most of the pubs have shut here and flats have been built on the land.


That's because the supermarkets sell cheaper booze, and getting trollied is now more important than the social aspects of the pub...


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Over three years have gone since the referendum and we've got nowhere and we're going nowhere.


 Thinking about the pantomime of the past three years, I don't think it was ever intended for us to leave. Honestly, I don't.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Well the fun will begin when Boris arrives. At the moment he's at No 10 changing his underpants and wondering whether he needs to take another pair .... just in case!


 Please don't mention Boris in his underpants . . . may I remind you that this is a family forum (allegedly).


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> the social aspects of the pub...


 A lot went under when they banned smoking.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Please don't mention Boris in his underpants . . . may I remind you that this is a family forum (allegedly).


Sorry I forgot! I've washed my mouth out with soap and water.

Promise it won't happen again (well at least not until the next time)


----------



## Calvine

[


kimthecat said:


> I live in Greater London and strangers dont say hello , let alone have a conversation.


Are you thinking of this guy, Kim?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> [
> 
> Are you thinking of this guy, Kim?


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Crikey, Charles Geoffrey Cox MP is giving it both barrels in this speech. :Wideyed
Shouldn't he be negotiating for Brexit?


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Crikey, Charles Geoffrey Cox MP is giving it both barrels in this speech. :Wideyed
> Shouldn't he be negotiating for Brexit?


Bully for him!

It's about time someone read the "Riot Act" and told them to stop p*****g around and get on with the job


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Magyarmum said:


> Bully for him!
> 
> It's about time someone read the "Riot Act" and told them to stop p*****g around and get on with the job


Yes, all that was missing was a formation of Supermarine Spitfires passing overhead as he spoke. Very rousing.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Yes , its going to be Sodom and Gommorah or rather Sod'em and Gommorah!
> 
> You meet a lot of people , are you on your way to St Ives ? You'll be meeting the man with seven wives next
> 
> Its friendly Up North! perhaps its because I live in Greater London and strangers dont say hello , let alone have a conversation.
> 
> Im just think about when you say , I dont feel European . I was born in Middlesex and it changed to Greater London. I will never really be a Londoner .
> But really , feeling something is a state of mind. You're still European .


I was at an anti Johnson event yesterday. At the weekend I attended two street stalls, so yes, I do get to encounter many people.

Not all of them are friendly. Many are damn right abusive, though, despite threats, I've yet to encounter anyone becoming physically agressive.

"It's friendly up North" saying is a myth as it's as divided as the rest of the UK is following that event in 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

??? Re-introduce the Sus law, giving Border Force staff the power to arrest anyone who appears too foriegn???


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I was at an anti Johnson event yesterday. At the weekend I attended two street stalls, so yes, I do get to encounter many people.
> 
> Not all of them are friendly. Many are damn right abusive, though, despite threats, I've yet to encounter anyone becoming physically agressive.
> 
> "It's friendly up North" saying is a myth as it's as divided as the rest of the UK is following that event in 2016.


Oh I see. That's the sad thing is the divides it has caused  It wont fixed what ever happens , not for a long time.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> [
> 
> Are you thinking of this guy, Kim?


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious Im laughing so much that Im crying .


----------



## Elles

"In case of a 'no-deal' Brexit, cooperation between the EU27 and the UK will switch to already existing alternative bilateral or multilateral legal frameworks and cooperation mechanisms. The Commission has worked with Member States to ensure appropriate contingency action and to be prepared to use reliable fall-back mechanisms for any scenario, particularly regarding the following issuess:
Disconnection from EU networks, information systems and databases; Transfer from the Schengen Information System to Interpol; Cooperation with EU Agencies including Europol, Eurojust and eu-LISA;
Judicial cooperation on pending criminal cases (European Arrest Warrant, Transfer of Prisoners, European Investigation Order, etc.). 
The EU27 have been preparing, assisted by the Commission, for the switch to these alternative cooperation mechanisms by making operational adaptations to procedures, structures, tools, staffing and other resources."

He should have asked the Eu.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_police_and_judicial_coordination_final.pdf

Of course we aren't leaving anyway, but if we do, they'll be sorting out all kinds of things afterwards. Other countries are not in the Eu.


----------



## Snoringbear

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...r-jo-coxs-memory-is-to-get-brexit-done/25/09/

Just when you think Brexiters are utterly stupid, they bring something out to endorse that and take you to another level of despair. How anyone sided with these cretins is beyond me.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I watched most of BJ's statement yesterday, stunned at times. I expected him to come out fighting, but I was disgusted with the words and attitude he used, to use Jo Cox's name and to say Humbug about the death threats MPs are suffering was unbelievable and offensive, If he thinks that is the way a PM should behave the man should be ashamed of himself and resign.


----------



## KittenKong

Gone full Farage hasn't he. I'm surprised this even appears to have disturbed some at the BBC which is saying something...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49833804


----------



## Elles

It’s interesting how some of the media is portraying Brendan Cox’s statement in their headlines. He basically accused Labour of hypocrisy and said they’re all as bad as each other, but the media headlines are more on the lines of how shocked he is at Boris, when I thought he was quite generous towards Boris. Clear to me who is the better man and the media do him a disservice with their headlines imo. 

I was surprised at the MPs bringing up Jo Cox and not at all shocked at Boris’ reply. The guy isn’t exactly known for his tact and diplomacy, he’s an idiot. He’s very unlikely to resign over something he said, since he’s already spent a lifetime in politics saying the wrong thing. Boris would have been far less likely to have made PM if it weren’t for brexit, so we can blame brexit for it.


----------



## KittenKong

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/25/brexit-propaganda-broadcast-3000-primary-schools-10809109/


----------



## havoc

According to the party chairman he was saying humbug to the word 'betrayal' being included because he'd never said that word. I'd suggest Cleverly was struggling just a touch but full marks for effort


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I was surprised at the MPs bringing up Jo Cox and not at all shocked at Boris' reply. The guy isn't exactly known for his tact and diplomacy, he's an idiot. He's very unlikely to resign over something he said, since he's already spent a lifetime in politics saying the wrong thing. Boris would have been far less likely to have made PM if it weren't for brexit, so we can blame brexit for it.


The evidence of what we're seeing today was clear to see as soon as we saw who was behind the Leave campaign in 2016. For that reason I could never have voted leave even if I was Eurosceptic and this is something I can't get my head around with Lexiters.


----------



## havoc

We could be doing it all again soon
@number10leaks 13h


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> We could be doing it all again soon
> @number10leaks 13h


I wouldn't be in the least surprised as it's been on the cards since the Supreme Court judgement.

Because according the court, the proroguing didn't happen, BJ's quite entitled to suspend Parliament again for up to a week to give time to prepare for the Queen's Speech.

Or that's how I understand it


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> BJ's quite entitled to suspend Parliament again for up to a week to give time to prepare for the Queen's Speech


I just read that too; funny old business.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Because according the court, the proroguing didn't happen, BJ's quite entitled to suspend Parliament again for up to a week to give time to prepare for the Queen's Speech


You mean with a lawful reason to do so - novel concept


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> You mean with a lawful reason to do so - novel concept


Exactly! :Eggonface


----------



## CollieSlave

Johnson's response to Paula Sheriff's comments vividly illustrates what an utterly loathsome and despicable specimen of humanity this oaf really is.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49833804


----------



## kimthecat

CollieSlave said:


> Johnson's response to Paula Sheriff's comments vividly illustrates what an utterly loathsome and despicable specimen of humanity this oaf really is.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49833804


Its been said the reason he said this was to provoke anger so that the opposition will call for No confidence and a GE .
Or perhaps he's just an insensitive buffoon!

I think the fact that she kept looking at her notes rather spoilt her speech for me in the sense that it wasnt a passionate outburst but planned .
Though of course , the Mps have the right to be angry .


----------



## Elles

They have no right to get angry. They need to remain calm and do their job.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Bully for him!
> 
> It's about time someone read the "Riot Act" and told them to stop p*****g around and get on with the job


Having watched that clip, though, all he is trying to do is goad the opposition in to doing what the government want (a single issue General Election).

To my mind, reading the riot act would be exactly what you said - a challenge to ALL MPs to stop stuffing about, ditch the pettiness and backstabbing, and work together to get a decent Brexit deal - accepting that it will probably take a long time and compromise will be required. Ranting away calling people cowards for not agreeing that a General Election is the best way to sort out the Brexit mess (which is obviously isn't!) isn't reading the riot act, more pouring petrol on the flames.

And don't get me started on Johnson... The man has no shame!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> They have no right to get angry. They need to remain calm and do their job.


:Jawdrop:Jawdrop:Woot With an Idiot as PM it's never going to happen.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> :Jawdrop:Jawdrop:Woot With an Idiot as PM it's never going to happen.


It would be the best way to treat him, though! Same as you would a toddler tantrum - stay calm, ignore the squalling, repeat yourself as many times as necessary using smaller words and shorter sentances...


----------



## kimthecat

Not sure who mentioned Jo Cox first but I think thats shameful dragging her murder into the argument.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Not sure who mentioned Jo Cox first but I think thats shameful dragging her murder into the argument.


Two female MPs.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yD-4vs7He6M&time_continue=16

They're are saying that calling the act 'the surrender act', says that they are traitors and not patriots and gets them death threats and Boris should moderate his language. You can see for yourself in this video link from the Guardian. They should probably have used examples of the language and words Boris actually used and left Jo Cox out of it. Boris should have left her out of it too. Which is what her husband is saying.


----------



## kimthecat

As much as I hate Tony Blair, I find this appalling,

Really will not be voting LIb dem anytime soon,

https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/lib-dem-caught-singing-tony-blair/
Lib Dems caught singing "Tony Blair can f*** off and die" at conference karaoke night


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Not sure who mentioned Jo Cox first but I think thats shameful dragging her murder into the argument.


It's relevant seeing how the hatred fueled by the Leave campaign contributed to her death. Johnson is further fuelling division and hatred with his performance yesterday and by his ill advised choice of words. "Surrender", for heaven's sake? The UK is not at war with the EU, but is at war with itself.

It would not surprise me at all if I hear of the death of another, "Remainer traitor" over the next few weeks.

What a disgusting vile hate filled nation it's become.


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Having watched that clip, though, all he is trying to do is goad the opposition in to doing what the government want (a single issue General Election).
> 
> To my mind, reading the riot act would be exactly what you said - a challenge to ALL MPs to stop stuffing about, ditch the pettiness and backstabbing, and work together to get a decent Brexit deal - accepting that it will probably take a long time and compromise will be required. Ranting away calling people cowards for not agreeing that a General Election is the best way to sort out the Brexit mess (which is obviously isn't!) isn't reading the riot act, more pouring petrol on the flames.
> 
> And don't get me started on Johnson... The man has no shame!


A Brexit deal will not it unite the "Nation", neither will a direct Revoke, as much as I support that, nor a no deal crash out. Many forget Scotland and NI voted for Remain for a start.

Anyone who suggests that delivering Brexit would somehow unite the UK is severely deluded. It could actually work in favour of Remainers if the predicted chaos results, when many realise they were juped.

It worked for the Poll Tax.

I've always said, from day one I would accept Brexit if the government worked towards delivering a Norway-like deal with Customs Union. That would have still enabled us to retire with no fear of repatriation back to the UK over technicalities.

No doubt Johnson will have rocketed in the media inspired popularity after yesterday. But, like how most of us see Trump, the UK has become an inward thinking laughing stock on the verge of becoming a fascist dictatorship.

I just hope someone out there will liberate us from this evil.


----------



## Elles

Sadly it turns out that if the Poll tax had been implemented as and how it should have been, it could have been a fairer and better system than we currently have. It wasn’t and it’s too late to find out now.

We should have already brexited and now be talking about rejoining if necessary, knowing what effect Brexit actually had, rather than promises and guesswork.

Currently they can use that Germany and Europe is heading for a recession, to further persuade us to leave. Germany will be fine and from what I read that’s not entirely true anyway, but it’s in the news and more ammunition. Using the law to prevent brexit is not helping and however the guardian and the bbc try to flavour it, Boris didn’t bring up a murdered MP first. Nor is he, or brexiters singing about killing Tony Blair. Are they really that idiotic? Jo Swinson is being easily discredited, with her history over fracking and social injustice. Maybe being controversial she was the right choice, maybe she wasn’t. Strange times indeed.


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> ALL MPs to stop stuffing about, ditch the pettiness and backstabbing, and work together to get a decent Brexit deal


If that's how it worked there would never be a need for a parliamentary majority. We don't expect opposition members to forfeit their policies or beliefs and vote along with the government just because they aren't part of a winning party. Brexit issues don't divide neatly down party lines but it's no different.

We've just gone through that circus of the courts because of a challenge to the core principle of our democracy - the sovereignty of Parliament. Our system may be flawed but the alternatives are not attractive, at least not to me. At some point we'll come out of this mess one way or the other and it would be a supreme irony if in doing so we'd given up the very democracy we supposedly cherish.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> It would not surprise me at all if I hear of the death of another, "Remainer traitor" over the next few weeks.
> 
> What a disgusting vile hate filled nation it's become.


Yes, some people _are_ full of hate, aren't they.


----------



## Elles

In this case the opposition parties said that they respected the result and would honour Brexit. Hence the parties should have appointed brexit representatives and tried to work together on a deal that is good for the country, that they could all agree on and put to the Eu. They needed cross party cooperation imo. It’s not about whether or not to nationalise the railways and who pays student loans.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Hence the parties should have appointed brexit representatives and tried to work together on a deal that is good for the country, that they could all agree on and put to the Eu.


But they didn't so we are where we are. As for respecting the result, Corbyn has been clever in refusing to commit his party. Means Labour have not gone back on anything.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> If that's how it worked there would never be a need for a parliamentary majority. *We don't expect opposition members to forfeit their policies or beliefs and vote along with the government just because they aren't part of a winning party.* Brexit issues don't divide neatly down party lines but it's no different.


Oh, heavens, no - that's not what I am suggesting at all. Just that for matters of extreme national importance (and I _think _we can just about classify Brexit as one) it would be far more beneficial to have at least some attempt at cordial cross-party co-operation as opposed to this utter farce where absolutely nothing productive has got done in three years. Yes, there will always be differences, but right now the Mother of All Parliaments bears more resemblance The Gangs Of New York (we rocketed past the squabbling schoolchildren phase some time ago) than a shining bastion of democracy.



havoc said:


> We've just gone through that circus of the courts because of a challenge to the core principle of our democracy - the sovereignty of Parliament. Our system may be flawed but the alternatives are not attractive, at least not to me. At some point we'll come out of this mess one way or the other and it would be a supreme irony if in doing so we'd given up the very democracy we supposedly cherish.


Oh, I'm with Churchill regarding democracy as a form of government!  I wonder if he ever in his wildest nightmares considered that the very people supposedly leading a democratic government would be railing about being held to account for undemocratic behaviour, let alone simultaneously waving his name about as a battle cry...


----------



## Elles

Which is more right? A PM and his bunch trying to force through what they think people voted for. Or parliament trying to stop him, because they don’t agree? I thought Parliament being sovereign meant not the Queen. I think Her Maj is trying to stay out of it. 

Did people vote for any brexit they can deliver, only a good brexit, any brexit within a time limit, no brexit without a deal, to cancel brexit if they don’t like the look of it, have a second vote when they’ve worked out what it means, or remain?

All these options seem to be available.


----------



## Elles

Now they’ve said the Tories can’t have their conference lol.


----------



## Elles

Now tell me the beeb ain’t biased. They are repeatedly criticising Boris without mentioning that other MPs started it, making it look as though he brought up Jo Cox from thin air. Which if he had, would rightly be condemned and I would expect calls for him to resign.


----------



## KittenKong

Sussex for Europe:

Far-right extremists are celebrating Boris Johnson’s “brilliant” comments in parliament amid mounting condemnation over his rhetoric.
Britain First, Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are throwing their weight behind the prime minister after he dismissed an emotional plea from a friend of the murdered MP Jo Cox as “humbug”.
Their supporters have previously called for riots at demonstrations supporting Mr Johnson, amid a warning that his language was “calling to” nationalists.
Remember that NAZI is an acronym for National Socialist; from the German NAtionale soZIalist. We must stop this rise of the right, we are reliving the 1930s.


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Oh, heavens, no - that's not what I am suggesting at all. Just that for matters of extreme national importance (and I _think _we can just about classify Brexit as one)


And yet everyone has been telling me for the past three years that everything will be fine if we get a deal/crash out without a deal/do it standing on our heads or sat on our backsides. It hardly counts alongside war or imminent threat to the security of the country.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Sussex for Europe:
> 
> Far-right extremists are celebrating Boris Johnson's "brilliant" comments in parliament amid mounting condemnation over his rhetoric.
> Britain First, Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are throwing their weight behind the prime minister after he dismissed an emotional plea from a friend of the murdered MP Jo Cox as "humbug".
> Their supporters have previously called for riots at demonstrations supporting Mr Johnson, amid a warning that his language was "calling to" nationalists.
> Remember that NAZI is an acronym for National Socialist; from the German NAtionale soZIalist. We must stop this rise of the right, we are reliving the 1930s.


Here we go again!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Sussex for Europe:


Who is Sussex for Europe? Do you have a link .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Who is Sussex for Europe? Do you have a link .


Here you go....

https://www.facebook.com/sussexforeurope/

And this the article the quote was taken from

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-performance-in-parliament/ar-AAHSG2l?ocid=sf

*Boris Johnson hailed by far-right extremists for 'brilliant' performance in parliament*


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> And yet everyone has been telling me for the past three years that everything will be fine if we get a deal/crash out without a deal/do it standing on our heads or sat on our backsides. It hardly counts alongside war or imminent threat to the security of the country.


Leaving without a withdrawal deal will be far less of a problem than these shenanigans. It has potential. Whatever happens we will be negotiating with the Eu in the future.

I'd like to point out that 'everyone' is an exaggeration. Many on here have been describing the catastrophe that they fear brexit will be, let alone no deal brexit which will be Armageddon.

Of 'National importance' which of course leaving the Eu is, doesn't mean war or threats to security.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/national-importance


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Here you go....
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/sussexforeurope/
> 
> And this the article the quote was taken from
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-performance-in-parliament/ar-AAHSG2l?ocid=sf
> 
> *Boris Johnson hailed by far-right extremists for 'brilliant' performance in parliament*


And they think that anything Boris says will temper the language and threats from these people? MPs should not have brought up Jo Cox, nor should they continue to do so, after requests by both her husband and sister. They shouldn't be singing about killing Tony Blair. They're all as bad as each other and should have gone through the proper channels.

From the Eu supporting page decrying the language, "Cowards, suckers, liars, incompetent, nasty, endangered species, fascist." And that's at MPs not the extremists who would deserve it.

It's really not helping. The hypocrisy is so obvious, ordinary people who voted for brexit and who have spent the last 3+ years being called racist, Nazi, xenophobe etc are probably going to be really impressed.

I quite liked Jess Phillips, but even she's got on the language/Jo Cox bandwagon.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Leaving without a withdrawal deal will be far less of a problem than these shenanigans. It has potential. Whatever happens we will be negotiating with the Eu in the future.
> 
> I'd like to point out that 'everyone' is an exaggeration. Many on here have been describing the catastrophe that they fear brexit will be, let alone no deal brexit which will be Armageddon.
> 
> Of 'National importance' which of course leaving the Eu is, doesn't mean war or threats to security.
> 
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/national-importance


Why won't you take BoE word for it?

Or markets' response to referendum?

Getting out of Single Market is a pretty poor judgement.

Why do you think Switzerland has access?

There is obvious reason why they didn't want to be in EU and have EU regulators looking closely at their banks...

But still in Single Market, it is worth it.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> But still in Single Market, it is worth it.


I agree to a degree, but unfortunately Remainers in our government have vowed to vote down any deal, so Boris and the Eu can't get one through. I'm of the opinion that leaving without a withdrawal deal will be less harmful and offers more opportunity than staying in. We cannot just stay in. We will have to leave with no withdrawal deal and then campaign to rejoin it if necessary.

I'm quite sad that no deal has been organised that protects the rights of Eu and British citizens as you know, but it's not brexiteers I blame for it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> * We will have to leave with no withdrawal deal and then campaign to rejoin it if necessary.*


Now I've heard everything, do you really think with all the problems we have caused the EU over the last 3 years they'd have us back .


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now I've heard everything, do you really think with all the problems we have caused the EU over the last 3 years they'd have us back .


Yes, of course. It's a trade agreement between professionals that benefits both parties. Why wouldn't they? They will be able to impose conditions, such as shengen maybe, possibly even the Euro, but give it a few years and the young will no longer be young and will be happy to accept it.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Who is Sussex for Europe? Do you have a link .


They are a Facebook group, similar to many others such as Bath for Europe etc. Not sure how to post links via FB but a search should bring them up.

Edit- Think I've worked out how to do this.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=684175385412175&id=305261259970258

Saw this via RT. Excellent speech from Ed Milliband.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2289198894703314&id=1405726646383881


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Yes, of course. It's a trade agreement between professionals that benefits both parties. Why wouldn't they? They will be able to impose conditions, such as shengen maybe, possibly even the Euro, but give it a few years and the young will no longer be young and will be happy to accept it.


Like the people of East Germany being happy to accept the need for the Berlin Wall???


----------



## KittenKong

Now I've heard it all.
I remember the saying, "We'll never surrender to terrorists".

Because anyone resorting to death threats in what was once a civilised is exactly that.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Yes, of course. It's a trade agreement between professionals that benefits both parties. Why wouldn't they? They will be able to impose conditions, such as shengen maybe, possibly even the Euro, but give it a few years and the young will no longer be young and will be happy to accept it.


I think a 'few' years is rather optimistic, given how deep the divides Our Glorious Leaders have managed to manufacture now run. Even if the greatest part of 'Project Fear' unfortunately turned out to actually be a fairly accurate example of post Brexit life, can you imagine how the suggestion of "Well, maybe we should join again" would go down? Especially as any post-Brexit problems will inevitably have been blamed on the EU being unfair and refusing to bend the rules for us when we clearly deserve to be treated differently to everyone else.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Like the people of East Germany being happy to accept the need for the Berlin Wall???


I thought you like the Eu and want to stay in? So you think if we leave, but negotiate an alliance in the future, we will be like East Berlin? That's not demonstrating much confidence in the Eu.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> I think a 'few' years is rather optimistic, given how deep the divides Our Glorious Leaders have managed to manufacture now run. Even if the greatest part of 'Project Fear' unfortunately turned out to actually be a fairly accurate example of post Brexit life, can you imagine how the suggestion of "Well, maybe we should join again" would go down? Especially as any post-Brexit problems will inevitably have been blamed on the EU being unfair and refusing to bend the rules for us when we clearly deserve to be treated differently to everyone else.


So you think it's not old people? That today's young will be happy and think they're better off out of the Eu if we leave? That the Eu is some kind of State that will lock itself behind walls?

The Eu and it's member states will find trade and travel a little less convenient too. The Eu will of course consider an alliance with the U.K. in the future and vice-versa.

Yes, the U.K. should be treated differently, as should we also treat Europe. Mainland Europe is on our doorstep and has been our allies and trade partners for some years. We have vested interests in Europe, in or out of the Eu. We aren't suddenly going to become North Vietnam, or Communist China, or sail across to Cuba, we will still be part of Europe, albeit not the Eu.

It seems people are happy enough to believe that voters have changed their minds over the past 3 years and now want to stay in, but not that the Eu will negotiate a return or partnership in the future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now I've heard everything, do you really think with all the problems we have caused the EU over the last 3 years they'd have us back .


Yes, will all rebates and what not!!!!

Really!!!!

Boris does not even want to prepare *** packet plan of any new deal.

For that we might as well have Farage, one **** as good as the other and both deep in Trump's .... ..... esteem (it is a family forum)....


----------



## Elles

Do you think the Eu is sensible or not? Do you think today’s young are tomorrow’s leaders? Do you think our being in the Eu is mutually beneficial? Do you think we can make deals with the Eu?

Do you think the Eu will reform and renew?

If the answer is no, then I expect once we’re out, we’re out and the Eu will rule Europe for the foreseeable and not so foreseeable future and do fine without us. As will we without them.

Looks like we’re leaving with no deal then.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> So you think it's not old people? That today's young will be happy and think they're better off out of the Eu if we leave? That the Eu is some kind of State that will lock itself behind walls?


Apologies, but my crystal ball is on the fritz and I have no idea what the youth of today will think in a years time, let alone ten or twenty. But no, I don't think the EU would be the party locking itself away behind walls. I think the only side in danger of doing that is us, but if it does happen then Our Glorious Leaders will try and blame the EU as being the intractable entity. When I said divisions, I meant the internal divisions in the UK, not between us and the EU.



Elles said:


> The Eu and it's member states will find trade and travel a little less convenient too. The Eu will of course consider an alliance with the U.K. in the future and vice-versa.


I've no doubt the EU will. Whether or not the UK public will desire or consent to it is another matter. As to trade and travel, the EU will have a blip, I don't doubt, but we're only one country and they will find it much easier to transition to other opportunities as the mechanisms are all in place - including their No Deal strategies.

We, on the other hand, are unfortunately not very prepared for leaving, particularly a No Deal scenario.


Elles said:


> Yes, the U.K. should be treated differently, as should we also treat Europe. Mainland Europe is on our doorstep and has been our allies and trade partners for some years. We have vested interests in Europe, in or out of the Eu. We aren't suddenly going to become North Vietnam, or Communist China, or sail across to Cuba, we will still be part of Europe, albeit not the Eu.


Where did I say we would? That's never been my line of debate at all...  It can't be, as it's not logical.



Elles said:


> It seems people are happy enough to believe that voters have changed their minds over the past 3 years and now want to stay in, but not that the Eu will negotiate a return or partnership in the future.


Again, where did I say the EU wouldn't negotiate a return? I'm sure they would be happy to, as they'd get our contributions back in return for us having much reduced influence compared with today. But I'm also pretty sure that there would be very large and vocal elements in the UK who would be vehemently protesting that they didn't vote to leave the EU ten/twenty/thirty years ago only to rejoin it within their lifetime.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Especially as any post-Brexit problems will inevitably have been blamed on the EU being unfair and refusing to bend the rules for us when we clearly deserve to be treated differently to everyone else.


Depends if you're a leaver or remainer , I expect everything will be blamed on Brexit .


----------



## kimthecat

talking of violence .....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...lidarity-protest-old-bailey-labour-gd3tnhmrt#

Jeremy Corbyn was arrested in 1986 taking part in a protest by IRA sympathisers to "show solidarity" with accused terrorists including the Brighton bomber, a Sunday Times investigation reveals.

Corbyn joined a picket outside the Old Bailey to oppose the "show trial" of a group including Patrick Magee, who was subsequently convicted of murdering five people at the 1984 Tory party conference.

Magee was also convicted with the other defendants of planning a massive bombing campaign in London and seaside resorts.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Depends if you're a leaver or remainer , *I expect everything will be blamed on Brexit* .


Sadly, I suspect you are correct. It will be a convenient scapegoat for years for whoever is in power, after all


----------



## Elles

Sorry, misinterpreted @Jesthar . I thought you were agreeing with the East Berlin behind a wall thing and the Eu not wanting us back. Seems you're more sensible and pragmatic like me, so we mostly agree. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> Depends if you're a leaver or remainer , I expect everything will be blamed on Brexit .


I think we can all agree that's going to happen and we don't need a crystal ball lol.


----------



## KittenKong

I'll refrain from passing comment here. This speaks for itself.








https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3108753509141486&id=283348121682053


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> talking of violence .....
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...lidarity-protest-old-bailey-labour-gd3tnhmrt#
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn was arrested in 1986 taking part in a protest by IRA sympathisers to "show solidarity" with accused terrorists including the Brighton bomber, a Sunday Times investigation reveals.
> 
> Corbyn joined a picket outside the Old Bailey to oppose the "show trial" of a group including Patrick Magee, who was subsequently convicted of murdering five people at the 1984 Tory party conference.
> 
> Magee was also convicted with the other defendants of planning a massive bombing campaign in London and seaside resorts.


That doesn't make the normalisation of death threats of MPs accused of, "Frustrating Brexit" acceptable though does it.

1986 was a long time ago. The IRA were very active back then until the GF agreement.

This saw sworn enemies McGuiness and Paisley not only working together in peace but becoming good friends, something that was impossible only ten years before.

For the record, in spite of detesting the Tories I thought the Brighton bombing an appalling act at the time.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> 1986 was a long time ago. The IRA were very active back then until the GF agreement.
> 
> .


Yes agree, they were , they were blowing men, woman and children to bits without regard .

Being along time ago doesn't change anything as you keep reminding us !

Im not making a comparison here, . Im just pointing out Corbyn's a hypocrite.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Im not making a comparison here, . Im just pointing out Corbyn's a hypocrite.


Yes, everyone's had a past and I'd rather Corbyn wasn't Labour leader. I'm more worried about what's happening at the present time and future.

I've responded to many FB posts from Corbyn supporters slagging off the Lib Dems and vice versa for their pasts.

One of the former had the audacity to warn the Lib Dems will be ready to prop up a minority Johnson government! I responded by saying if they were going to do that, why didn't they go into coalition with Theresa May when she lost her majority in 2017?!

As matters stand, I'm likely to vote Labour in the next GE tactically, now they've confirmed they'll have a PV on the Brexit deal with the option to revoke or no deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> They are a Facebook group, similar to many others such as Bath for Europe etc. Not sure how to post links via FB but a search should bring them up.
> 
> Edit- Think I've worked out how to do this.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=684175385412175&id=305261259970258
> 
> Saw this via RT. Excellent speech from Ed Milliband.
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2289198894703314&id=1405726646383881
> 
> View attachment 417702


Hope you realise that RT is based in Moscow and funded by the Russian Government?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

*RT (TV network)*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Hope you realise that RT is based in Moscow and funded by the Russian Government?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)
> 
> *RT (TV network)*


Seems that kittenkong maybe getting influenced by Russian news.


----------



## KittenKong

Imagine the reaction if they said after the Brighton bomb, "Get the troops out of Ireland to avoid things like this happening again" back in 1984.

Welcome to Fascist Britain where death threats have become the natural norm for anyone who dares oppose or question opposition.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ly-way-to-solve-abuse-of-mps?CMP=share_btn_fb

Great image of the real Prime Minister. He would suit an SS uniform.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now I've heard everything, do you really think with all the problems we have caused the EU over the last 3 years they'd have us back .


The European Union has left the door open for the United Kingdom. If the United Kingdom left and then applied to rejoin the United Kingdom would be allowed to but would have to join the Euro currency and would lose its vetoing power and any concessions they have. Of course the United Kingdom would be welcome to apply to rejoin the European Union.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> What a disgusting vile hate filled nation it's become.


There are some hate filled people in other countries as well not just in the United Kingdom.

You make it sound as if everyone in the United Kingdom are full of hate and are vile when they are not.


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting article about the problems the EU will have to resolve over the next 5 year session

https://euobserver.com/opinion/145970

*These are the crunch issues for the 2019-2024 EU commission*


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> I'll refrain from passing comment here. This speaks for itself.
> View attachment 417709
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3108753509141486&id=283348121682053


Both side have used inflammatry language at one stage or another over Brexit have they not. The attention always seems to be towards what Leave voters/MP's say or do when remain MP's/voters in the United Kingdom Parliament are just as bad.

Do the remain MP's in Parliament have a plan as Corbyn wants the United Kingdom to leave the European Union as well? Has anyone seen Corbyn's plan? They just seem to argue all the time with no resolve except to ask for an extension from the European Union with no clear view to what they want as well.

Giving the Leaver MP's credit here Theresa May at least managed to negotiate a deal. Do remainer MP's have a plan except from the chaos currently going on in the United Kingdom Parliament created from the extensions they want and binding the Governments hands.


----------



## Guest

When are the United Kingdom Parliament going to discuss Brexit?

Yesterday they discussed the use of their language in Parliament and their feelings nothing to do with Brexit. The Supreme court ordered that the suspending of the United Kingdom Parliament was unlawful so MPs could go back and discuss Brexit.

If I remember rightly from other posts on here the United Kingdom Parliament does not sit on Fridays. What a waste of a day yesterday.

If the United Kingdoms Parliament was so interested in resolving Brexit they would be sitting every working day to do so. It is no wonder the United Kingdom is in limbo with Brexit.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Far-right extremists


 I never heard of a ''far left'' extremist, though I guess there will be some if one rakes around enough.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I never heard of a ''far left'' extremist, though I guess there will be some if one rakes around enough.


If you look hard enough.

Two recent publications - hope the links work!

https://www.gold.ac.uk/news/ideology-of-sectarian-far-left-report/

*Report published on attitudes to far left extremism*

https://assets.publishing.service.g...4429/Allington-McAndrew-Hirsh-2019-Jul-19.pdf

*Violent Extremist Tactics and the ideology of the Sectarian Far Left*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> If you look hard enough.
> 
> Two recent publications - hope the links work!
> 
> https://www.gold.ac.uk/news/ideology-of-sectarian-far-left-report/
> 
> *Report published on attitudes to far left extremism*
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...4429/Allington-McAndrew-Hirsh-2019-Jul-19.pdf
> 
> *Violent Extremist Tactics and the ideology of the Sectarian Far Left*


Thank you.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> The European Union has left the door open for the United Kingdom. If the United Kingdom left and then applied to rejoin the United Kingdom would be allowed to but would have to join the Euro currency and would lose its vetoing power and any concessions they have. *Of course the United Kingdom would be welcome to apply to rejoin the European Union*.


There is this.....

*What if Britain rejoined the EU? Breaking up may be less hard than making up*

_If Britain ever sought to rejoin the EU, it could not be on the terms of membership the country previously enjoyed. The UK's budget rebate, exemption from Schengen and opt-outs from the euro and judicial cooperation will not be on the table again. This would make rejoining a difficult sell to the British public._


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> _*This would make rejoining a difficult sell to the British public*._


If that is the case and the United Kingdom left it would never rejoin in our life time especially with the current United Kingdoms Parliament rabble who are wasting time arguing over how they should speak and treat each other in the United Kingdom Parliament instead of Brexit which is why the Supreme Court sent the MPs back to work. They seem to be more interested in their personal feelings than Brexit in the United Kingdom Parliament. MPs wasted a whole day yesterday in the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-...juncker-european-commission-climate-change/?u

*EU plans to spend more on private jets for top officials*


----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps I should put this another way.

Tory politicians have expressed a desire to see the hunting with dogs act repelled.

It comes up in the commons with much opposition from many MPs including a small number of Tory politicians.

The objectors are subjected to abuse and death threats from extremists from within the pro hunting lobby.

The PM and his/her advisor tells them to back the repeal bill and to vote it through if they don't want these threats.

Completely unacceptable in a democracy.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> There is this.....
> 
> *What if Britain rejoined the EU? Breaking up may be less hard than making up*
> 
> _If Britain ever sought to rejoin the EU, it could not be on the terms of membership the country previously enjoyed. The UK's budget rebate, exemption from Schengen and opt-outs from the euro and judicial cooperation will not be on the table again. This would make rejoining a difficult sell to the British public._


Sadly, I can't see that happening. I doubt very much they would have the UK back as it stands anyway, assuming there's still a UK that is.

The best thing that could be hoped for is a Norway/Swiss style arrangement with Customs Union, which might be acceptable to all parties by the time.

As I argued from the outset, if the UK must leave they should have opted for that, rather than putting it in the hands of extremists who have treat the whole saga as if they've been fighting a war and attempting to negotiate their own terms through their delusional "superiority" belief.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I never heard of a ''far left'' extremist, though I guess there will be some if one rakes around enough.


No one can doubt that. Every nation has a far right and left element who're on the fringes of politics under normal circumstances. The Nazis in Germany at one time and their modern day equivalent.

Only, when we see such factions become the mainstream do we get to witness extremism, as with what happened in Germany in the 1930s and is happening now in the UK.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> If that is the case and the United Kingdom left it would never rejoin in our life time especially with the current United Kingdoms Parliament rabble who are wasting time arguing over how they should speak and treat each other in the United Kingdom Parliament instead of Brexit which is why the Supreme Court sent the MPs back to work. They seem to be more interested in their personal feelings than Brexit in the United Kingdom Parliament. MPs wasted a whole day yesterday in the United Kingdom Parliament.


*My understanding as regards to the supreme court, had nothing to do with brexit. It was a matter of whether or not it was lawful to prorogue parliament.*


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *My understanding as regards to the supreme court, had nothing to do with brexit. It was a matter of whether or not it was lawful to prorogue parliament.*


That of course is debatable. Certainly they used, "Delivering Brexit" as the reason, as believed and supported by many Brexit supporters, notably The Sun and Leave Means Leave.

I'm inclined to agree upto a point, but this would have disguised implementing other and mostly unpopular measures. Had they got away with it they could have introduced legislation without a Parliamentary debate, such as the repeal of the hunting with dogs act for example.


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *My understanding as regards to the supreme court, had nothing to do with brexit. It was a matter of whether or not it was lawful to prorogue parliament.*


Please read my post properly. I was answering happypaws2's post.

The Supreme Court ruled on the suspending of the United Kingdoms Parliament. My understanding was MPs argued they wanted to get back to work to discuss Brexit. So why aren't they? Instead they are wasting valuable time.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> Please read my post properly. I was answering happypaws2's post.
> 
> The Supreme Court ruled on the suspending of the United Kingdoms Parliament. My understanding was MPs argued they wanted to get back to work to discuss Brexit. So why aren't they? Instead they are wasting valuable time.


*Saartjie i wasn't finding fault, i just misunderstood. *


----------



## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Saartjie i wasn't finding fault, i just misunderstood. *


No problem. Sorry if I took your post out of context.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> If that is the case and the United Kingdom left it would never rejoin in our life time especially with the current United Kingdoms Parliament rabble who are wasting time arguing over how they should speak and treat each other in the United Kingdom Parliament instead of Brexit which is why the Supreme Court sent the MPs back to work. They seem to be more interested in their personal feelings than Brexit in the United Kingdom Parliament. MPs wasted a whole day yesterday in the United Kingdom Parliament.


The thing is, though, the language being used in Parliament IS a problem, as it encourages the more partisan Brexiteers in the general population to follow suit (note, not ALL Brexiteers. Just the ones that shout the loudest).

And BoJo knows it, which is WHY he is using it - he's not dumb, far from it. He knows full well Parliament can't really ignore it as otherwise they are signalling such aggression is acceptable (and I think we can all agree it is not), but the time spent addressing it is, as you say, time that could have been much better spent. He didn't manage to get his extended prorogation (which, he claims, was nothing to do with Brexit anyway ), but there are plenty of other tricks he can use to derail sessions from being productive.

As a side note, understanding that the UK will forever be a smaller player in the EU post-Brexit is probably important to understanding why the EU are sad we are leaving, but not overly troubled by it. They know that if we want to trade with them we have to continue to abide by their regulations (amount of additional paperwork and costs yet to be decided), and that our close physical location makes European trade the clear priority in any logical plan - especially if we want to make a go of Brexit in a relatively easy fashion. On the other hand, if we prioritise overseas trade (and make a go of it), that's not so much of a worry for them either - sure, their immediate trade will take a hit, but overall they are better prepared and placed to refocus their trade efforts elsewhere, without the hassle of having to negotiate new deals first as they already have lots of them in place. And, as has been pointed out, if we make a complete pigs breakfast of Brexit and decide we're better off in the EU after all, we'll be back in without any of the exceptional extras we currently enjoy.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://dispatcheseurope.com/no-dea...240182693&mc_cid=8d1b0a2133&mc_eid=956f2c30b9

*No deal, no problem (updated): More EU countries guarantee British expats post-Brexit grace periods*


----------



## Elles

Boris shouldn’t have stood in front of rookie PCs and said he’d ‘rather be found dead in a ditch’. That probably didn’t help. David Lammy is worse though.


----------



## kimthecat

Was for sale on Amazon but now removed because of complaints. Charming !


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Was for sale on Amazon but now removed because of complaints. Charming !



This book is inciting violence is it not with a title like that?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Was for sale on Amazon but now removed because of complaints. Charming !


I question the term, "Brexiteers" being from a true remain source as we agree that is not the term to use as it's describing them as heroes.

I've certainly never seen this promoted on any pro EU site or webpage.

If it had been, it's not something I would condone, nor do I think anyone in my group would do.

I'm pleased it has been removed from sale.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I question the term, "Brexiteers" being from a true remain source as we agree that is not the term to use as it's describing them as heroes.
> 
> I've certainly never seen this promoted on any pro EU site or webpage.
> 
> If it had been, it's not something I would condone, nor do I think anyone in my group would do.
> 
> I'm pleased it has been removed from sale.


The same seller sells a few different note and sketch pads. They call themselves remain publishing and promote their wares as.

*A Perfect Present For Pro-Europeans!*
Get this journal/notebook and put a smile on the face of anyone who is against Brexit, who voted Britain to stay, who don't want Britain to leave the European Union!
This is a great notebook/journal for all anti-brexit remainers and Pro-Europeans, Anti Leave British supporters who want Britain to remain in the European Union.
An ideal gift for Christmas, birthdays, a political science humour or parody gift.

Looks like a remain source to me.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I question the term, "Brexiteers" being from a true remain source as we agree that is not the term to use as it's describing them as heroes.
> 
> I've certainly never seen this promoted on any pro EU site or webpage.
> 
> If it had been, it's not something I would condone, nor do I think anyone in my group would do.
> 
> I'm pleased it has been removed from sale.


It seems there is also this one too , I guess that's where the inspiration came for the Brexiteer .

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Book-Idiots-Want-Stab/dp/1729089461

Questioning whether it comes from a "true " remain source ,who knows , I didnt say it did. But "we agree not to use the term" Brexiteer" Is "we" entitled to speak on behalf of all remainers? You speak for the millions who voted Remain ?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> It seems there is also this one too , I guess that's where the inspiration came for the Brexiteer .
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Book-Idiots-Want-Stab/dp/1729089461
> 
> Questioning whether it comes from a "true " remain source ,who knows but "we agree not to use the term" Brexiteer" Is "we" entitled to speak on behalf of all remainers? You speak for the millions who voted Remain ?


No, of course I don't, but most I know agree the BBC term "Brexiteer" is not well liked from what I've seen.

On Twitter and Facebook I've seen some posters disguising themselves as being pro EU to the extent of using the EU flag as their avatar. They're soon caught out!

It wouldn't surprise me if these allegedly pro EU books are conjured up by such infiltrators to discredit the pro EU campaign and distract from their own vile rhetoric of condoning violence towards Remainers. I can't confirm that of course.

It's the first time I've seen these vile books. I'm on most UK wide pro EU Facebook pages, not once have I seen anyone condone violence towards opponents on them.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong I just added a bit to my post to say that I didnt actually say it was Remainers .

I dont know who coined the term Brexiteer. It just seemed to appear . I dont really like the term myself , they should stick to Leavers and Remainers

I expect its just a firm who saw a chance to make money . I really dont think its a plot or anything.


----------



## KittenKong

Good example is this tweet from Andrew Adonis. Note the use of the term, "Brexiter" and not, "Brexiteer".

Damn good speaker, as was Anna Soubry when I saw them at a PV event in Newcastle earlier this month


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong I just added a bit to my post to say that I didnt actually say it was Remainers .
> 
> I dont know who coined the term Brexiteer. It just seemed to appear . I dont really like the term myself , they should stick to Leavers and Remainers
> 
> I expect its just a firm who saw a chance to make money . I really dont think its a plot or anything.


Thanks, and for bringing it to my attention Kim.


----------



## Elles

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/lang...roflakes-how-language-frames-political-debate


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> No, of course I don't, but most I know agree the BBC term "Brexiteer" is not well liked from what I've seen.
> 
> On Twitter and Facebook I've seen some posters disguising themselves as being pro EU to the extent of using the EU flag as their avatar. They're soon caught out!
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if these allegedly pro EU books are conjured up by such infiltrators to discredit the pro EU campaign and distract from their own vile rhetoric of condoning violence towards Remainers. I can't confirm that of course.
> 
> It's the first time I've seen these vile books. I'm on most UK wide pro EU Facebook pages, not once have I seen anyone condone violence towards opponents on them.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong and @kimthecat I think it is absolutely disgusting that people would consider going to such lengths over a vote regardless which side they backed during the referendum. It is not right either that Amazon are allowing people to put such things on their website, doesn't it break there rules as such material or the wording of such material would be considered as being inciting violence and/or hate?

Is anyone reporting this material to Amazon Customer Services so they can remove the material?

The whole thing is quite disturbing and posters on Amazon posting this material are getting away with it.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> @KittenKong and @kimthecat I think it is absolutely disgusting that people would consider going to such lengths over a vote regardless which side they backed during the referendum. It is not right either that Amazon are allowing people to put such things on their website, doesn't it break there rules as such material or the wording of such material would be considered as being inciting violence and/or hate?
> 
> Is anyone reporting this material to Amazon Customer Services so they can remove the material?
> 
> The whole thing is quite disturbing and posters on Amazon posting this material are getting away with it.


Just as they are doing on Facebook and Twitter!


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Just as they are doing on Facebook and Twitter!


I thought Facebook and Twitter and other forms of social media are cracking down on people posting hate posts, people inciting violence and people displaying violent acts? People need to report these things to the social media platforms as well. These types of posts are disturbing and not funny at all.

Apart from this website I do not take part in any other social media platforms and never have.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I thought Facebook and Twitter and other forms of social media are cracking down on people posting hate posts, people inciting violence and people displaying violent acts? People need to report these things to the social media platforms as well. These types of posts are disturbing and not funny at all.
> 
> Apart from this website I do not take part in any other social media platforms and never have.


I use Facebook to keep in touch with friends and relatives overseas, also for vegan recipes and diet and health information for my dogs.

At the moment I'm in a dilemma because my cousin's wife is an avid Trump supporter and some of the things she posts about the Democrats I find quite offensive.

I feel I can't do anything about it because it's the only means of communication I have with my US family and I don't know her well enough to broach the subject to her myself without causing offense

When I got my laptop back after having a new hard drive installed, I found on Facebook I'd somehow joined two Remain groups

It has been said on this thread, something to the effect that Remainers don't condone violence. Pull the other one, because if the two groups I saw are anything to go by that's far from the truth! I was so disgusted I un-joined both rapidly


----------



## KittenKong

Guess this is a good way of putting it.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Instead they are wasting valuable time.


 And being well-paid to do so.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Apart from this website I do not take part in any other social media platforms and never have.


Same here....I've never been on twitter or FB.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Guess this is a good way of putting it.
> 
> View attachment 417834


A good way of putting what together?

Do you live on the same planet as us because it sounds like you're a bit "spaced" out?


----------



## MollySmith

The text from Peter Kyle transcribed below:

_"I know at times like this you expect me to stand up and give voice to our community, to make sure our values are represented. That's what I've been trying my best to do locally and in parliament, plus the media too.

There's loads I want to tell you about that I've been up to locally but I'll save them for the coming days. Right now I think you want to hear from me about the seismic events of recent days.

Few people expected the Supreme Court to be so forthright in their judgement, nor for it to be unanimous. But it was. All 11 judges, the highest in our land, decided two things:

Firstly that it was the legitimate duty of the courts to have a view on parliament's prorogation - that's the time parliament is shut down in the run-up to a Queen's Speech. This happens simply so parliament can reset for a few days, clear all the old bills and paperwork from the system and prepare for the next. But in that time nothing can happen, that's why it always occurs in a stable or non-contentious period.

The judges said that government weren't able to answer a simple question: if courts don't have a say, what is to stop a prorogation being called for a month, a year, or five years? That would in effect kill our democracy and nothing could stop it if the courts weren't able to have a say.

Secondly, they ruled that this prorogation was so long because government wanted to avoid the scrutiny of parliament. Government could not say why they needed five weeks to prepare for a Queen's Speech so they ruled that 'any reasonable person' would presume it was to silence parliament.

We have not seen anything like this in our country for hundreds of years. It means that government acted unlawfully, they misled the Queen and worst of all they misled you. That's not my opinion: after this judgement it is fact.

I arrived at parliament knowing it would be a difficult session, but I never expected quite how bad it would become.

You have to understand that in the Commons there are microphones everywhere but the second someone is called to speak every microphone is shut down except the one by the MP on their feet. It means you only hear about 5% of what is happening when you're watching on tv.

By the time Boris Johnson got to his feet MPs were already upset. The attorney general had been at the dispatch box. He was the man who provided the government, the queen, and our nation with legal advice saying prorogation was legal. It wasn't. You'd have thought under the circumstances that a little contrition would have been in order. After all, in any other workplace in the land if you'd got something so spectacularly wrong you'd be fearing the worst and hoping for at least a way to keep your job, so you'd do everything possible to be contrite. Not this man.

Geoffrey Cox got to his feet and hurled abuse at MPs. He called us a 'dead parliament', he said we didn't have the moral right to be sitting on the green benches. He shouted, he jabbed his finger and he sneered.

It might be worth pointing out an obvious fact - you elected us in 2017 for a five year period, a bit odd to say we don't have the right to be there, especially from the man who's just been slammed by the Supreme Court!

And far from being dead, what really upsets them is that parliament is alive and well and doing its constitutional job. The only reason government can't get business through is because of their own stupidity and the fact they kicked out 21 of their own MPs which means they don't have a majority anymore. None of this is your fault, nor my fault. It's infuriating that they won't take responsibilities for their actions.

And then Boris Johnson appeared. He immediately started using words that are associated with wartime treachery, pointing at people while he did it. People immediately started to beg him to change the tone, to use different words.

And this is the key thing, because as soon as he knew which words were upsetting people the most he started to use them again and again and again, more and more, getting louder and more personal.

Very few MPs have not experienced some form of abuse. There are half a dozen people in prison right now because of it. I have never spoken about it publicly simply because I meet people every week who suffer much worse, such as domestic abuse victims, and I'm very aware that I have a privileged position and a regular conversation with the police about my safety. I have the mobile numbers of several senior officers, so I would never compare my position with people living with those overwhelming challenges.

In politics, as so often elsewhere, women and minorities suffer first and worst. So when Paula Sherif MP spoke from the heart and begged him to stop using language that could incite hate and target MPs, the prime minister said she was talking 'humbug'. When Tracy Brabin, the MP who replaced Jo Cox in Batley and Spen said that words matter and the language he was using was too similar to that used in the environment leading up to Jo's murder, he said the 'best way to honour Jo was to get Brexit done'. And in reply to my question which pointed out he enjoyed the constant protection of armed police and is not as vulnerable as those he was targeting, he said 'the best way to ensure that every parliamentarian is safe is to get Brexit done'.

In other words, we have a prime minister who says that the only way MPs can avoid danger is to back his policies. How un-British can you get?

I realise it might all look the same from tv, but I promise you that there was very genuine distress in that chamber. MPs who have abusers in prison and others on restraining orders were shaken. Just behind the chamber in the voting lobby several were in tears as they left. I really do understand how this could be perceived from the outside, as if MPs are being too delicate or overreacting, but MPs are human too (some more than others admittedly!). Those who have woken up to find abusing graffiti on the front of their home or death threats posted through their door know what will be waiting for them thanks to Boris Johnson.

That's why things got so emotional last night.

You'll know from the way I try to engage with people of different views on this page that I aspire to be respectful even though I sometimes fail. But at least I try. We now have a prime minister that uses gaslighting as a political tool and believe me our whole country will pay the price not just MPs.

Predictably, today a man was arrested for attacking a female MP's office. Words matter, they really do.

The other question I asked him was why he was the only interested party in the Supreme Court case that didn't submit a sworn statement. All the others did. This was mentioned by the judges, he was asked to provide one but he didn't. Boris Johnson refused to answer my question but he didn't need to, we know why he didn't. If he had submitted a sworn statement saying prorogation was simply to prepare for a queens speech and not to stymie debate and scrutiny then he would have perjured himself.

Finally, if you're still reading, I'd like to share a personal story where I learned a big political lesson. I think it's relevant.

Running up to the 2015 general election we had a series of public hustings. They're always really difficult because it's hard to form a relationship with an audience when you have loads of other people taking pot-shots, but they had all been respectful. But then, presumably when it became obvious I was winning, one of the candidates changed strategy.

At a hustings in Hove Park School, the other candidate made a point of sitting next to me. Every time I spoke he interrupted me. Several times he jabbed his finger very close to my face. Always before I'd resisted the temptation to respond but this time I did, I was really annoyed. So rather than looking forward to the audience I turned to him and had a go back and several times we got into a to-and-fro about something that was probably irrelevant anyway.

When I got into the car afterwards I put my head in my hands. My campaign manager said 'what's the matter I think you won', but that wasn't the problem. I felt real shame that I had let the audience down. I actually felt we had all let the audience down. I wasn't responsible for the others but I was for me. It was the only night of a two-year campaign I couldn't get to sleep, I knew in my heart that the audience looked at us and thought to themselves 'they're all the same', and for that moment at least we were.

This moment left a deep impression on me. It has stayed with me and when I go into an adversarial situation I can feel it welling up. Sometimes I still get it wrong, you might have seen those moments on TV, but I can say with my hand on heart that I do try.

Whatever happens to me going forward at least I'll always know that I aspired to be a respectful, unifying politician. Boris Johnson may have become prime minister and guaranteed his place in history, but when he looks back at his career he will never be able to say the same. Out of the two situations I know which I'd rather - and I know which you deserve.

I know it won't make pleasant reading...but I do want to hear your thoughts so please post away! And baring in mind the contents of this post *PLEASE* keep language respectful even if you feel very strongly. Yours, Peter"_


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## kimthecat

@Arnie83 is still here.


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## Elles

Looks like the next plan is to drop Boris and put someone else in charge for a few months. SNP have said they’ll back Corbyn. Amber Rudd is another possibility and there are a few more.

They will then work towards a second referendum with everyone age 16 up being given a vote and including anyone who is currently in the U.K., regardless of where they are from.


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## Guest

Elles said:


> Looks like the next plan is to drop Boris and put someone else in charge for a few months. SNP have said they'll back Corbyn. Amber Rudd is another possibility and there are a few more.
> 
> They will then work towards a second referendum with everyone age 16 up being given a vote and including anyone who is currently in the U.K., regardless of where they are from.


So MP's are planning a confidence vote on the Government in the absense of the Conservative party who are away on their annual conference. How sneaky and under the belt of them. The opposition parties will have the majority because the conservative party won't be in the United Kingdom Parliament next week. Rumour is the opposition parties are planning something on Monday.


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## Guest

kimthecat said:


> @Arnie83 is still here.


@Arnie83 must be a popular poster who has been missed by some.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> So MP's are planning a confidence vote on the Government in the absense of the Conservative party who are away on their annual conference. How sneaky and under the belt of them. The opposition parties will have the majority because the conservative party won't be in the United Kingdom Parliament next week. Rumour is the opposition parties are planning something on Monday.


Parliament is not is recess next week, the conservatives lost their vote for a recess so they could hold their conference, therefore Parliament will be sitting. There may be less conservative MPs on the green benches and a skeleton government in attendance but they will all be very aware of parliamentary business.* If* a vote of no confidence is called by the opposition there will be a debate before the vote. Conservative MPs will have ample time to get themselves to the HoCs to vote.


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## Guest

It seems to me that the United Kingdom Parliament are trying to silence the United Kingdom people by betraying them. Holding a confidence vote knowing the Conservatives have their annual conference next week is shameful. Then they are planning to install a care taker Government if they succeed in toppling the Government with Corbyn as the Prime Minister and not allowing the United Kingdom people have a say who they want as Prime Minister. They should hang their heads in shame because in the meanwhile they are trying to overturn the referendum result of 2016 again not letting the people decide if Brexit should be stopped or not. The United Kingdom opposition parties are playing dangerous games. That is not democracy folks even though some of you will swear it is. It is a betrayal of a democratic vote that took place in 2016 (the referendum) and 2017 (the General Election which the Conservative party won). The opposition parties are running scared of a General Election and instead are playing cunning tricks to topple the United Kingdom Government.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> It seems to me that the United Kingdom Parliament are trying to silence the United Kingdom people by betraying them. Holding a confidence vote knowing the Conservatives have their annual conference next week is shameful. Then they are planning to install a care taker Government if they succeed in toppling the Government with Corbyn as the Prime Minister and not allowing the United Kingdom people have a say who they want as Prime Minister. They should hang their heads in shame because in the meanwhile they are trying to overturn the referendum result of 2016 again not letting the people decide if Brexit should be stopped or not. The United Kingdom opposition parties are playing dangerous games. That is not democracy folks even though some of you will swear it is. It is a betrayal of a democratic vote that took place in 2016 (the referendum) 2017 (the General Election which the Conservative party won). The opposition parties are running scared of a General Election and instead are playing cunning tricks to topple the United Kingdom Government.


How on the earth is it shameful to hold a confidence vote when the Tories are having a conference? Conservative MPs will not be prevented from voting. 
The people of the UK did not get to vote for the current PM. 
The only way to know if the people of the UK want Brexit to be stopped or not is hold a referendum, a GE should not be held to decide one issue.


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## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> How on the earth is it shameful to hold a confidence vote when the Tories are having a conference? Conservative MPs will not be prevented from voting.
> The people of the UK did not get to vote for the current PM.
> The only way to know if the people of the UK want Brexit to be stopped or not is hold a referendum, a GE should not be held to decide one issue.


The United Kingdom voted in the Conservative Party in 2017 (who got a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP) you do not vote in who is Prime Minster and never have in the United Kingdom. When you vote in a General Election if I remember rightly you vote for your local MP not the person in charge of the party.

Both are needed in the United Kingdom, a General Election and a second referendum.


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## Elles

They want time to change law regarding eligibility to vote. Before a second referendum they want to lower the age to 16 and permit anyone in the U.K. to vote regardless of where they’re from. They don’t want a second referendum yet.


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## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> How on the earth is it shameful to hold a confidence vote when the Tories are having a conference?


It is shameful because the opposition parties know it is the Conservatives conference and won't even let them have it by holding a vote of confidence in the Government but it is alright for them to have their party conferences. They know all the Conservative MP's cannot get back to vote so it is very cunning of them to do this.


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## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> The people of the UK did not get to vote for the current PM.


Will the United Kingdoms people have voted Corbyn in if he succeeds toppling the Government on Monday? No. He would be an unelected United Kingdom Prime Minister because the United Kingdoms people did not vote the Labour Party into power in the last General Election in 2017. Very worrying and dangerous games being played hereby the opposition parties.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> The United Kingdom voted in the Conservative Party in 2017 (who got a confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP) you do not vote in who is Prime Minster and never have in the United Kingdom. When you vote in a General Election if I remember rightly you vote for your local MP not the person in charge of the party.
> 
> Both are needed in the United Kingdom, a General Election and a second referendum.


Yes I am aware of how the voting in GE works, I was referring to the fact you said the opposition were not allowing the UK public to decide who they want as PM.


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## havoc

saartje said:


> They know all the Conservative MP's cannot get back to vote


I've just this moment got home from a trip to Manchester - took me around three hours to drive it. I'm about 45 minutes north of London. There would be plenty of time for MPs to get back if they wanted. It isn't as if such a vote happens without notice. It's actually very unusual for all MPs to be sat on the benches, they only go in for the important stuff and it's tabled. If a vote of no confidence were attempted on any normal day without warning most wouldn't be there anyway.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> It is shameful because the opposition parties know it is the Conservatives conference and won't even let them have it by holding a vote of confidence in the Government but it is alright for them to have their party conferences. They know all the Conservative MP's cannot get back to vote so it is very cunning of them to do this.


 The Lib Dems were able to hold their conference while Parliament was (illegally) suspended, Labour was in the middle of their conference when Parliament was recalled. There has to be a vote before parliament goes into recess, the conservatives lost the vote for recess therefore parliament is not in recess. The conservatives of course are able to hold their conference, it starts tomorrow so the opposition are not preventing them from holding one just not allowing Parliament to go into a recess.

I really have no idea why you think Conservative MPs will not be able to vote should a confidence vote be called, as far as I am aware the conference is in Manchester UK not Manchester USA!


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Will the United Kingdoms people have voted Corbyn in if he succeeds toppling the Government on Monday? No. He would be an unelected United Kingdom Prime Minister because the United Kingdoms people did not vote the Labour Party into power in the last General Election in 2017. Very worrying and dangerous games being played hereby the opposition parties.


 No they will not, but that is how Parliament works. The queens opposition is allowed to call a vote of no confidence in the government, if successful they can try to form a government, I would expect a GE to be called shortly after.


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## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> It seems to me that the United Kingdom Parliament are trying to silence the United Kingdom people by betraying them. Holding a confidence vote knowing the Conservatives have their annual conference next week is shameful. Then they are planning to install a care taker Government if they succeed in toppling the Government with Corbyn as the Prime Minister and not allowing the United Kingdom people have a say who they want as Prime Minister. They should hang their heads in shame because in the meanwhile they are trying to overturn the referendum result of 2016 again not letting the people decide if Brexit should be stopped or not. The United Kingdom opposition parties are playing dangerous games. That is not democracy folks even though some of you will swear it is. It is a betrayal of a democratic vote that took place in 2016 (the referendum) and 2017 (the General Election which the Conservative party won). The opposition parties are running scared of a General Election and instead are playing cunning tricks to topple the United Kingdom Government.


Parliament was elected by all voters in 2017, they did not get there without being elected.
BoJo was not elected by the people though and has no mandate to say what the Will of The People is.

If he wants to know let's put a Deal or No Deal with truth not lies about consequences and let The People decide.

Why ERG are so against PV ?

Parliament, by definition, is to represent the people.

If you silence Parliament you have no democracy but dictatorship.

I lived in a regime with one ruling party and parliament that was only there to applaud.

I have heard this rhetoric of hate, arrogance and contempt...

Even BoJo's siblings can't stand it.
Clown, but a very scary one. "It".!!!


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## Elles

The main difference is we could have had a GE. Boris isn’t going to cheat in the voting booths, or threaten to shoot people.

Don’t forget the Lib Dems don’t want a PV and the rest don’t want one yet, even if they do want one. They want to make it law that we cannot leave without a deal first and be certain it’s watertight. Then they want to overturn Boris and take over. 

Then they want to think about a GE or PV, depending on which they think will be most likely to be successful. If they can change the rules on voting, we’ll probably get another referendum. If not we’re more likely to get a GE imo, which will have to happen eventually anyway. The Lib dems have written to the Eu asking them not to negotiate with Boris, or agree a deal, as they want to overturn article 50 and cancel brexit and think there’s a good chance.


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## Guest

What a mess the United Kingdoms Parliament is in.

Parliament is ripping itself and democracy apart over a vote that was had in 2016. Some of you don't realize overturning the vote of 2016 in Parliament is destroying democracy because it was a democratic vote that happened. People in this instance should decide not those in Parliament.


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## havoc

Some of us realise that democracy relies on not silencing dissenting voices.


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## havoc

saartje said:


> Some of you don't realize overturning the vote of 2016 in Parliament is destroying democracy because it was a democratic vote that happened


There was also a democratic vote in 2017. Every sitting MP was voted in *after* the referendum which means their position on Brexit was known and they were returned by an electorate armed with that knowledge.


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## Elles

havoc said:


> There was also a democratic vote in 2017. Every sitting MP was voted in *after* the referendum which means their position on Brexit was known and they were returned by an electorate armed with that knowledge.


Not true. Their (current) position on brexit wasn't known. The huge majority of them said they respected the result and would see it through, across all parties. The europhile Lib Dems were annihilated and Labour have changed their policy so many times I've lost count, but were still talking about leaving the Eu.

Students thought Labour were going to write of their debts, so voted for them. Just as in the past the Lib Dems promised to do away with fees and then tripled them when they came to power with the coalition.

So I'm sorry, only sceptics knew they were trying to block brexit and prevent our leaving the Eu.


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## Calvine

Elles said:


> Students thought Labour were going to write of their debts, so voted for them. Just as in the past the Lib Dems promised to do away with fees and then tripled them


Lord, yes, I had forgotten all that; can you imagine what fat juicy carrots they will be dangling at 16-year-olds if they get the vote!! Probably a free iPhone 11 handed out to them all at the polling station to start with.


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## Guest

havoc said:


> There was also a democratic vote in 2017. Every sitting MP was voted in *after* the referendum which means their position on Brexit was known and they were returned by an electorate armed with that knowledge.


I don't think a United Kingdom General Election would be about Brexit so disbelieve this post. United Kingdom General Elections are normally about domestic policies and promises from MPs on how they are going to fix issues like benefits system and how they are going to offer more tax cuts etc. I doubt very much MP's even mentioned Brexit in the United Kingdom General Election campaigning.

The United Kingdom Labour don't know which side of the fence they sit on with Brexit as Corbyn still wants to leave the European Union on his terms. Corbyn is at odds with some of his own MPs.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> I don't think a United Kingdom General Election would be about Brexit so disbelieve this post. United Kingdom General Elections are normally about domestic policies and promises from MPs on how they are going to fix issues like benefits system and how they are going to offer more tax cuts etc. I doubt very much MP's even mentioned Brexit in the United Kingdom General Election campaigning.
> 
> The United Kingdom Labour don't know which side of the fence they sit on with Brexit as Corbyn still wants to leave the European Union on his terms. Corbyn is at odds with some of his own MPs.


You can't actually belief a GE held now would not be about Brexit! Of course it would be about Brexit.


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## Elles

Calvine said:


> Lord, yes, I had forgotten all that; can you imagine what fat juicy carrots they will be dangling at 16-year-olds if they get the vote!! Probably a free iPhone 11 handed out to them all at the polling station to start with.


The Eu gave them free holidays.


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## Elles

3dogs2cats said:


> You can't actually belief a GE held now would not be about Brexit! Of course it would be about Brexit.


It would now for sure. That's why we can't have one yet. Everything has to be in place to ensure that we can't leave the Eu and to increase the likelihood of remain being the people's choice.

The last general election wasn't totally about brexit, because most MPs whether they voted leave or remain said they respected the result and would see it through, so people were able to focus more of domestic policy. Remember 'the dementia tax'? Corbyn's popularity with students?

The recent Eu elections for MEPs was about brexit and now Farage and the Brexit Party are the largest Party in the Eu Parliament.


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## Guest

So basically the United Kingdom Parliament are stitching up the United Kingdom public. The General Election will be Leave with a deal or remain because the United Kingdom wont be allowed or able to leave without a deal as the United Kingdom Parliament are making sure that isnt on the tsble. The deal on offer would be Corbyns deal (whatever that is). Not all the options will be offered.


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## Calvine

Elles said:


> The Eu gave them free holidays.


 How does that work?


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## KittenKong

saartje said:


> What a mess the United Kingdoms Parliament is in.
> 
> Parliament is ripping itself and democracy apart over a vote that was had in 2016. Some of you don't realize overturning the vote of 2016 in Parliament is destroying democracy because it was a democratic vote that happened. People in this instance should decide not those in Parliament.


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## Happy Paws2

That's why by LAW, everyone should vote and should be fined if they don't.


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> So basically the United Kingdom Parliament are stitching up the United Kingdom public. The General Election will be Leave with a deal or remain because the United Kingdom wont be allowed or able to leave without a deal as the United Kingdom Parliament are making sure that isnt on the tsble. The deal on offer would be Corbyns deal (whatever that is). Not all the options will be offered.


Leave without a deal is not off the table, currently as the law stands the government is obliged to ask for an extension before leaving without a deal on the 31st - I think the date to ask for an extension is the 19th. The Government can ask Parliament to vote to leave without a deal, however they are unlikely to win that vote. 
The GE would not have to be run on leave with a deal or remain, the Brexit Party will field candidates, the Conservatives could if they wish stand on a no deal platform. Following a GE, Parliament will not be the same as it is today, if a leave without a deal party get a large majority or are able to make a coalition or supply and confidence arrange with a party who supports their mandate, then they will be able to get leaving with no deal through parliament. 
If Corbyn is in power of course what ever plan he comes up with will be the only one on offer. May only offered her deal, Johnson - if he ever comes up with a plan that can be presented to the HoC will only offer that deal.


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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417982


As always no link to show where this came from.

For all anyone knows any Tom, Dick or Harry could have produced it if they have Windows Excel!

In any case the graph is wrong because no matter how much people might have wished otherwise, the voting age in the UK is 18 years of age .......... toughies!


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## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417982


Which newspaper/magazine/website/twitter account or facebook page is this off please?


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## havoc

saartje said:


> So basically the United Kingdom Parliament are stitching up the United Kingdom public.


If you say so. The only recent 'stitching up' which hit the public conciousness was Boris trying to circumvent legal process. Parliament is working exactly as it's meant to. That may not be good enough to provide what one third of the electorate voted for but as there was no concensus at the time of the referendum as to what kind of Brexit people were voting for it can hardly be a surprise that there's a range of view among MPs.


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## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Leave without a deal is not off the table, currently as the law stands the government is obliged to ask for an extension before leaving without a deal on the 31st - I think the date to ask for an extension is the 19th. The Government can ask Parliament to vote to leave without a deal, however they are unlikely to win that vote.
> The GE would not have to be run on leave with a deal or remain, the Brexit Party will field candidates, the Conservatives could if they wish stand on a no deal platform. Following a GE, Parliament will not be the same as it is today, if a leave without a deal party get a large majority or are able to make a coalition or supply and confidence arrange with a party who supports their mandate, then they will be able to get leaving with no deal through parliament.
> If Corbyn is in power of course what ever plan he comes up with will be the only one on offer. May only offered her deal, Johnson - if he ever comes up with a plan that can be presented to the HoC will only offer that deal.


I thought the conversation was on if the opposition parties manage to vote a confidence vote against the government and lost? That's why I suggested these options. I know no deal is still on the table at the moment but would not be if the opposition parties win a vote of confidence against the Government.


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## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's why by LAW, everyone should vote and should be fined if they don't.


The problem forcing people to vote is alot of people felt ill advised when the referendum was happening and refused to vote on that basis. How are you expect to vote if you don't know who to vote for or which way to vote?


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## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's why by LAW, everyone should vote and should be fined if they don't.


Part of tactical voting is not voting. We have the right to vote, no one should force us to pay to not vote. Not everyone knew what to vote for. Not everyone is capable of voting. Shall we go through a pip style check to make sure we're mentally competent? What about prisoners? Spoiled ballot papers? I don't agree.


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## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Part of tactical voting is not voting. We have the right to vote, no one should force us to pay to not vote. Not everyone knew what to vote for. Not everyone is capable of voting. Shall we go through a pip style check to make sure we're mentally competent? What about prisoners? Spoiled ballot papers? I don't agree.


Voting is compulsory in Australia

https://www.aec.gov.au/FAQs/Voting_Australia.htm

*Voting within Australia - Frequently Asked Questions*


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## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Voting is compulsory in Australia
> 
> https://www.aec.gov.au/FAQs/Voting_Australia.htm
> 
> *Voting within Australia - Frequently Asked Questions*


It is in other countries too. And?

Tbh If they did bring out a law forcing us to vote in this country, I'd never vote again.

If I moved to live in a country that had compulsory voting I'd comply, but because I'd comply with the laws and customs of any country I moved to.


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## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Voting is compulsory in Australia


It is but I don't think it makes anything better - or worse. It's just how they do it. Our history just means ordinary people had to fight for the vote and that includes the right not to.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> Tbh If they did bring out a law forcing us to vote in this country, I'd never vote again.


I know exactly what you mean but I don't think I could bring myself to stay away when it came to it . My great aunt chained herself to railings so I could vote.


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## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's why by LAW, everyone should vote and should be fined if they don't.


*I would hate to see this in place. How many freedoms do we have to give up to please people? If i can't see any party worth voting for, then i should have that choice. How would it sit with people if it was made so that those wanting to vote should pay? *


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## Elles

Calvine said:


> How does that work?


They gave them a lottery to start with.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44680136

"In future, the European Commission plans to expand the scheme to enable 1.5 million 18-year-olds to visit their European neighbours, funded by €700m (£619m; $815m) of EU money.

"If we want to counter the current growth of populism, they need to be able to discover for themselves the advantages of free movement, the reality of neighbouring countries and what unites this diversity of people," it says."

Old people (apparently) want to leave the Eu, but it's ok they'll die soon, so the Eu are trying to make sure the next lot like them.:Hilarious


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## JANICE199

havoc said:


> I know exactly what you mean but I don't think I could bring myself to stay away when it came to it . My great aunt chained herself to railings so I could vote.


*I think i see it more like, she was giving you the opportunity to vote. I'm sure all those that fought for the vote for women, didn't want it to be that they must *


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## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> I thought the conversation was on if the opposition parties manage to vote a confidence vote against the government and lost? That's why I suggested these options. I know no deal is still on the table at the moment but would not be if the opposition parties win a vote of confidence against the Government.


You mentioned a General Election and said it would be leave with a deal or remain, I was pointing out in the case of a GE the current parliament is dissolved. If any party gets a large enough majority then they will be in a position to get through whatever their preference is regarding Brexit. 
Should the opposition parties win a vote of no confidence against the government, they will be invited to see if they can form a government, leave without a deal will still be the default position but if the newly formed government could reach a deal with the EU then presumably they would be put it before parliament. However I imagine once the newly formed government have ensured an extension to prevent leaving without a deal on the 31st they will call for a GE.


----------



## KittenKong

havoc said:


> I know exactly what you mean but I don't think I could bring myself to stay away when it came to it . My great aunt chained herself to railings so I could vote.


It's an awkward one as it could force people to choose between options that they are against, say a referendum with May's deal or no deal being the only options and an election with only Theresa May and Boris Johnson as choices.

I could never vote for either in both circumstances.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> Old people (apparently) want to leave the Eu, but it's ok they'll die soon


They will and therefore be least affected. My very elderly father was dismissive about the effects of any future deals/arrangements. I pointed out his future and that of his grandchildren were very different things.


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## Elles

havoc said:


> They will and therefore be least affected. My very elderly father was dismissive about the effects of any future deals/arrangements. I pointed out his future and that of his grandchildren were very different things.


Plenty of young people are selfish @havoc and plenty of older people are terribly concerned about the future. When you say dismissive, do you mean he doesn't believe that leaving the Eu will be detrimental? If older people are dying and don't care, why did they vote? To spite the young?

Dead people won't be affected by staying in the Eu or paying towards its army and empire aspirations either, so why would they care either way? To be honest, to my mind it's the single most offensive opinion on why people may have voted to leave.


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## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I would hate to see this in place. How many freedoms do we have to give up to please people? If i can't see any party worth voting for, then i should have that choice. How would it sit with people if it was made so that those wanting to vote should pay? *


They have said before there should a "I don't agree the any" on the ballot form


----------



## havoc

My father voted remain and actually said leaving would only be a problem for a generation so it wasn’t ‘the future’ as in forever. The really old people I know who voted leave did so out of a sense of nostalgia, the idea that it would turn clocks back. It can’t do that.


----------



## JANICE199

havoc said:


> My father voted remain and actually said leaving would only be a problem for a generation so it wasn't 'the future' as in forever. The really old people I know who voted leave did so out of a sense of nostalgia, the idea that it would turn clocks back. It can't do that.


*It might not go back to the " good old days ", But how will we know what it would be like if we tried? No different to when we joined. imho *


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> They have said before there should a "I don't agree the any" on the ballot form


*That's ok with me. But i still want the choice and not have to pay for the way i feel.*


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> My father voted remain and actually said leaving would only be a problem for a generation so it wasn't 'the future' as in forever. The really old people I know who voted leave did so out of a sense of nostalgia, the idea that it would turn clocks back. It can't do that.


How do you know what it'll do? What did they want to turn the clocks back to and why? When they talk about older people voting leave because it won't affect them, they're talking about over 60s. If I live to be in my 90s that's another 30 years. It will hit older people hardest, the young are resilient.

We all only have 8 years left don't forget, then the planet will be tipped over the point of no return. Humans are on the edge of mass extinction. The young are more convinced about it than anyone else. The Eu have as their new leader, a woman who has a terrible record on the environment. The new Lib Dems leader is no better.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's why by LAW, everyone should vote and should be fined if they don't.


That's draconian , I dont agree with that.


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> How do you know what it'll do? What did they want to turn the clocks back to and why? When they talk about older people voting leave because it won't affect them, they're talking about over 60s. If I live to be in my 90s that's another 30 years. It will hit older people hardest, the young are resilient.
> 
> We all only have 8 years left don't forget, then the planet will be tipped over the point of no return. Humans are on the edge of mass extinction. The young are more convinced about it than anyone else. The Eu have as their new leader, a woman who has a terrible record on the environment. The new Lib Dems leader is no better.


*tut, tut, Don't you know the young will be too busy on their phones or computers to notice what is going on. Please keep up. *


----------



## Guest

If I remained a United Kingdom citizen and was allowed to vote in the 2016 Referendum I would have voted remain because I feel the issue of leaving the European Union is not a simple one and more complex than people think. I also think the United Kingdom is better off being part of the European Union family of countries. But I wasnt allowed to vote because I took a different path in life and became Dutch. But realising my vote would not really have changed anything if I was allowed to vote in 2016 I keep an open mind.

I do though keep an open mind and read why leave voters want to leave the European Union and fully understand why. But do wish that everything was more organised at the beginning for example people knew what leaving meant. Agreed though if people had the question put to them again today in the United Kingdom they would vote leave again probably with a bigger magine of votes. I disagree with what the United Kingdom opposition parties have been doing seeing as the majority of MPs voted for Article 50 to be triggered and they agreed to respect the referendum result and act upon it. Now they are trying to overturn the result without consulting the United Kingdoms people (or at least the Lib Dems are). The opposition parties are playing a dangerous game turning the United Kingdom Parliament against the people of the United Kingdom.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> When they talk about older people voting leave because it won't affect them, they're talking about over 60s. If I live to be in my 90s that's another 30 years. It will hit older people hardest, the young are resilient


I'm old and it won't affect my career prospects, my chances of buying a house, my ability to afford children, etc. Whatever happens it won't affect my ability to build a future at all because I'm past the point of doing so.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417982


If Remain had garnered 27pc and Leave 25 pc , you wouldn't be complaining 

If there is another referendum and the results reversed at that percentage, you'd be happy to have another referendum ?

Im not happy with it being so close either, though .


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I'm old and it won't affect my career prospects, my chances of buying a house, my ability to afford children, etc. Whatever happens it won't affect my ability to build a future at all because I'm past the point of doing so.


So because it doesn't affect you financially in those ways, you don't actually care about the future, or future generations? Did you vote in the referendum, or leave it to those it will affect?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> So because it doesn't affect you financially in those ways, you don't actually care about the future, or future generations? Did you vote in the referendum, or leave it to those it will affect?


Exactly the opposite to not caring. I care desperately for the future of my children and grandchild as I do for future generations and voted accordingly. However, I do believe that as it's those generations who will live with the consequences they should be listened to.


----------



## Elles

So did you vote in the referendum and if you did, did you vote according to what your kids, or grandkids said?

I voted remain, my kids voted remain and leave. What you’re saying is that once you reach an as yet unconfirmed age, you should stop voting and leave it up to younger people?

Why do you not think that leave voters also care and voted for future generations? Maybe they care more, as they will risk their short term happiness (when they are most likely to be around) for the long term benefit. It’s been said a number of times that although not inevitable, there may be some short term disruption, but it will be better in the long run. Which age group is that more likely to benefit? 

I still think it’s quite offensive for people on either side of the coin to say the other are less caring, or more thoughtless. When in fact a leave and a remain voter may have made their choice for the same reason.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Why do you not think that leave voters also care and voted for future generations?


I'm sure some did. I pointedly said I had the younger generations in mind when I voted - not which way I voted.


Elles said:


> It's been said a number of times that although not inevitable, there may be some short term disruption, but it will be better in the long run.


It depends what you mean by short term. It goes beyond lettuces being in short supply for a while and needing bigger lorry parks at ferry ports - except that those lettuces and those lorries translate into livelihoods and futures of businesses and individuals. Those which don't survive the disruption if we don't get this right, those we risk throwing to the wall are real people.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I'm sure some did. I pointedly said I had the younger generations in mind when I voted - not which way I voted.
> 
> It depends what you mean by short term. It goes beyond lettuces being in short supply for a while and needing bigger lorry parks at ferry ports - except that those lettuces and those lorries translate into livelihoods and futures of businesses and individuals. Those which don't survive the disruption if we don't get this right, those we risk throwing to the wall are real people.


Both the Eu and Britain have said there will be no disruption to food supplies at the ports. They are already testing it.

"launch the new customs system together with the British minister in charge of planning for a no-deal Brexit, Michael Gove."

"Darmanin attempted to assure the French that the situation was under control, thanks to the creation of a new "smart border" which will scan trucks' licence plates and automatically link them to shipping documents filled out online by exporters.

On arrival in Calais, trucks will either be waved through to take the Channel tunnel or a ferry to Britain, or be subjected to physical checks, depending on what type of goods they are carrying.

"You're a small business in Grenoble and you export to Britain: you declare everything online from now," Darmanin said.

"There will be bar codes and licence plate readers, and at the border -- unless there are checks because we think you are smuggling contraband or counterfeit goods -- your goods will go directly to Britain," he said."

Both countries have employed more customs officials. New jobs for Brexit?


----------



## havoc

Ok, the sun is going to shine and it's going to be unicorns and rainbows all the way.


----------



## Elles

There are rainbows in petrol puddles and unicorns are horses with horns, their feet and teeth can do enough damage, without sticking a spike on their forehead.

I was just pointing out that some concerns have already been addressed and allayed, by both sides. 

Of course the sun is going to shine, global warming doncha know.


----------



## Elles

Tbh as soon as I heard leave had won, I started looking into what might happen. With 2 sons living abroad and a small business that sells products in the U.K. and overseas, it was quite important to me personally. My first thought was that they’ll never allow it and will do whatever is necessary to either overturn it, or leave in such a way that we haven't really left, then I went for ‘what if’. Obviously I’ve kept a close eye on border issues and people’s rights.


----------



## Magyarmum

An interesting survey done by Europe Street News which is an online magazine covering citizens rights in Europe.

https://europestreet.news/wp-conten...EU-and-You-Europe-Street-News-Survey-2019.pdf

*Brexit anxiety: lack of information, protection and political representation revealed in Europe Street News survey*


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417982


Whoever wrote this is implying (albeit by omission) that the other 73% voted Remain, which obviously was not the case, and unless they do a breakdown of the 73% it's a bit of a waste of space.
Also the ''Brextremist'' bit stops me from taking it seriously. Say what you will, it's the Leavers who take most of the crap . . . even the MP's are at it now with the name-calling.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Calvine said:


> Whoever wrote this is implying (albeit by omission) that the other 73% voted Remain, which obviously was not the case, and unless they do a breakdown of the 73% it's a bit of a waste of space.
> Also the @Brextremist'' bit stops me from taking it seriously. Say what you will, it's the Leavers who take most of the crap . . . even the MP's are at it now with the name-calling.


Both sides are as bad as each other in my opinion, name calling from both camps has been going on since the referendum, obviously if you are firmly on one side you will only see the crap coming at you not what is being thrown back!


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Say what you will, it's the Leavers who take most of the crap


Actually, I reckon it's pretty much even on the name calling front. I think Leave hold the lead for actual threats, violence and arrests, though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Actually, I reckon it's pretty much even on the name calling front. I think Leave hold the lead for actual threats, violence and arrests, though.


But BJ hasn't help and his still stirring it up with the terms he uses. I sorry but as time goes by I think he's getting evil.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> But BJ hasn't help and his still stirring it up with the terms he uses. I sorry but as time goes by I think he's getting evil.


Oh, he's definitely pouring petrol on the flames - quite deliberately, too. 'Divide and rule' is one of the oldest tactics in history.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Tory conference breaks record for most bastards in one place*
30th September 2019









*THE Conservative party conference has won a place in the Guinness Book of Records for fitting the largest number of total bastards into one location.*

Officials have confirmed the 11,000 Tories at the Manchester Central Convention Complex is the largest collection of absolute arseholes in a space that size.

A Guinness spokesman said: "They really made an effort. They've got every type of arsehole, from scheming ministers to horrible old couples from the shires who are still sad about the end of apartheid."

Delegate Norman Steele said: "As a wealthy retiree whose life is a routine of lawn-mowing and petty boundary disputes, the highlight so far has been complaining about breakfast at my hotel because they wouldn't let me have seven sausages.

"Besides that I just enjoy being with like-minded people who love Brexit and still describe women as 'crumpet'."


----------



## Elles

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...uropean-union-remain-manchester-a7362956.html

A remainer attacked someone with a hammer, then later murdered his neighbour.

A remainer throws a milkshake at Farage and others including MPs hint that it shouldn't have been a milkshake and think it's funny.

We are told that if we leave the Eu, the IRA will restart their murderous campaign.

Obviously Spiked is biased, but

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/...-over-the-behaviour-of-pro-remain-protesters/

Unsound people are unsound people. The problem I see is that the Spiked article is quite true. It's ok to attack brexit supporters, it's not ok to attack Remain supporters. Remain and Eu supporters are the good guys.


----------



## Elles

Someone mentioned this young woman to me today, the subject came up about the young and activism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl

I expect you've all heard of her and The White Rose, but I never have.

It occurred to me, by calling people like Boris, or Anna Soubry, fascist, or dictator and comparing them to Hitler, we are doing people like young Sophie a huge disservice.  It means people who oppose Boris must view themselves as heroes in the same light. I hadn't thought of it like that before tbh. So no, Boris isn't a dictator and Anna Soubry isn't a fascist, or opposing them would lead to a guillotine, not fame on YouTube, Facebook, or twitter and calling them such diminishes the true heroism of young people like these. No one opposing our politicians today are heroes.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Actually, I reckon it's pretty much even on the name calling front


@3dogs2cats: 
On this forum I think remain are noticeably worse for insults and for digging out unpleasant articles.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...uropean-union-remain-manchester-a7362956.html
> 
> A remainer attacked someone with a hammer, then later murdered his neighbour.


Small correction, the neighbour died from breathing difficulties after consuming alcohol, methadone and cannabis, not the fight injuries. Well, according to the article, and the pathologist. Doesn't let the attacker off the hook for his dunken attack, but it wasn't even ruled to be manslaughter.



Elles said:


> We are told that if we leave the Eu, the IRA will restart their murderous campaign


It's certainly a possibility. The separationist movement never fully went away, and the Good Friday agreement relies on EU legislation. Even the US have repeatedly stated there won't be a chance of a UK-US trade deal if Brexit imperils an open Irish border.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> @3dogs2cats:
> On this forum I think remain are noticeably worse for insults and for digging out unpleasant articles.


I voted remain. 

I agree.


----------



## Elles

So terrorists are holding the public to ransom and Americans are backing them, just as they did when they were fully active in the past. Nice.


----------



## KittenKong

View attachment 418190


Calvine said:


> Whoever wrote this is implying (albeit by omission) that the other 73% voted Remain, which obviously was not the case, and unless they do a breakdown of the 73% it's a bit of a waste of space.
> Also the ''Brextremist'' bit stops me from taking it seriously. Say what you will, it's the Leavers who take most of the crap . . . even the MP's are at it now with the name-calling.


It doesn't say that at all, it points out a large percentage of people couldn't vote either way. I'm sure a percentage that couldn't vote might have voted for Brexit. I posted this to counteract the popular belief that 52% of the UK citizens voted to leave. 17+m is only a fraction of the population, as 16+m is of course.

Why do you insist Leavers are taking most of the crap? I've yet to see hard Brexit MPs be targeted with death threats. I wouldn't condone it if that was the case.

So why sympathise with those Leavers who do issue abuse and death threats?

I strongly opposed the Thatcher government, but at no time did I condone the Brighton bombing.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I voted remain.
> 
> I agree.


 I have friends who also voted remain and they agree; it's not selective reading.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> It doesn't say that at all,


 I said it ''implied that''. You must stop twisting posts to suit your views.


----------



## David C

Right now i'm sick of the whole damn thing and couldn't give a damn what happens. I just want it all over with one way or another.


----------



## kimthecat

I hope this happens.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-28/tories-propose-to-ban-long-journeys-to-slaughter/

Long journeys to slaughter could be banned under Tory proposals to protect animal welfare after Brexit.

The Conservatives will consult on recommendations that animals should be sent to the closest available abattoir, effectively banning most live exports.


----------



## Elles

Gove had also promised to look at this when he was environment minister. The farmer groups lobbied him for restrictions rather than a total ban, but they’ll get around anything like that. If told they can only travel breeding stock, every animal suddenly becomes breeding stock and the only difference to them is that they don’t get castrated. Many live exports are sold to fattening farms not abattoirs, so they won’t be travelling for slaughter.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Gove had also promised to look at this when he was environment minister. The farmer groups lobbied him for restrictions rather than a total ban, but they'll get around anything like that. If told they can only travel breeding stock, every animal suddenly becomes breeding stock and the only difference to them is that they don't get castrated. Many live exports are sold to fattening farms not abattoirs, so they won't be travelling for slaughter.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I said it ''implied that''. You must stop twisting posts to suit your views.


??? It doesn't just say the 18+m who couldn't vote would have voted Remain or leave for that matter.

Onto the present, Johnson has confirmed customs checks etc. will be required around, but not necessarily at the Irish border. I don't recall him warning of the necessity of that during the 2016 leave campaign.

Most dismissed that as, "Project Fear" or actually believed the ROI would too leave the EU and become part of Great Britain!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I said it ''implied that''. You must stop twisting posts to suit your views.


https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-if-everyone-had-voted-in-the-eu-referendum/

*What if everyone had voted in the EU referendum?*


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 418188
> View attachment 418190
> 
> 
> It doesn't say that at all, it points out a large percentage of people couldn't vote either way. I'm sure a percentage that couldn't vote might have voted for Brexit. I posted this to counteract the popular belief that 52% of the UK citizens voted to leave. 17+m is only a fraction of the population, as 16+m is of course.
> 
> .


and if it was the other way round and Remainers won the 52% and Leavers by 48% you would have accepted the result . You wouldnt have said Lets have another referendum.

From the 1975 referendum , here it says Remain votes were *17,378,581 *and the population then was 56,225,718 so that was only a fraction of the country too .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resul...om_European_Communities_membership_referendum
The *United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum* was a public vote that took place on 5
*United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum*
The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?
*Location* United Kingdom
*Date* June 5, 1975
Results

*Votes * *% *







*Yes* *17,378,581* *67.23%*







*No* 8,470,073 32.77%
Valid votes 25,848,654 99.79%
Invalid or blank votes 54,540 0.21%
*Total votes* *25,903,194* *100.00%*
Registered voters/turnout 40,086,677 64.62%
*Results by county *

Yes No
Referendum held: 5 June 1975

Population data

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/oct/21/uk-population-data-ons


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> and if it was the other way round and Remainers won the 52% and Leavers by 48% you would have accepted the result . You wouldnt have said Lets have another referendum.
> 
> From the 1975 referendum , here it says Remain votes were *17,378,581 *and the population then was 56,225,718 so that was only a fraction of the country too .
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resul...om_European_Communities_membership_referendum
> The *United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum* was a public vote that took place on 5
> *United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum*
> The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.
> 
> Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?
> *Location* United Kingdom
> *Date* June 5, 1975
> Results
> 
> *Votes * *% *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes* *17,378,581* *67.23%*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No* 8,470,073 32.77%
> Valid votes 25,848,654 99.79%
> Invalid or blank votes 54,540 0.21%
> *Total votes* *25,903,194* *100.00%*
> Registered voters/turnout 40,086,677 64.62%
> *Results by county *
> 
> Yes No
> Referendum held: 5 June 1975
> 
> Population data
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/oct/21/uk-population-data-ons


I guess 17+m against 8+m can be seen as decisive, unlike 17+m against 16+m. The 16+m have been completely forgotten in favour of the 17+m, as if 99.9% of the population voted to leave.

No, I would have been extremely worried had Remain won by 52%. For a start, Farage said it would have been unfinished business, they probably would have been another vote by now had that happened.

I certainly wouldn't have gloated on forums like some here have done in the past and on social media. 52% hardly represents a significant majority does it, only the media and politicians believe it is.

I especially feel for countries like Scotland, Gibraltar and NI who did decisevly vote to remain in their respective countries. Johnson now admitting border and customs checks between NI and the ROI won't exactly go down well with NI, having voted for Remain.

It didn't have to be like this of course. They could have chosen a route similar to Norway or Switzerland plus Customs Union. It was all about giving the, "Superior British" what they want which was never going to work. I guess they needed putting down a peg or two. Most nations have moved on from WWII which ended over 70 years ago.

It would be like me walking out of my job, then expecting my former employer to look after my welfare.


----------



## Calvine

David C said:


> Right now i'm sick of the whole damn thing and couldn't give a damn what happens. I just want it all over with one way or another.


 I can relate to that David. I know several Remainers who say the same . . . it's getting ridiculous now, and, annoyingly, we are the ones paying these clowns extremely well to create a pantomime out of the whole business.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I certainly wouldn't have gloated on forums like some here have done in the past


 Yes, _''in the past''_ . . . and the one who did is now banned. There is no-one here _now _who does (unless I have missed something).


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> I can relate to that David. I know several Remainers who say the same . . . it's getting ridiculous now, and, annoyingly, we are the ones paying these clowns extremely well to create a pantomime out of the whole business.


But delivering Brexit will not unite the UK. It'll fuel the support for Ireland unification and Scottish independence. I wish them every success with that.

It's become everything I predicted yet most is still dismissed as, "Project Fear" and "Scaremongering".

Sometimes, as we saw with the Poll Tax, people will have to see for themselves what their future's going to be like. I think it'll become increasingly ugly when many already angry leave voters discover Brexit isn't what they thought it was going to be.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> But delivering Brexit will not unite the UK


I may be wrong, but I think what David is saying is that it has now got to the point that people don't care what happens, they just want the whole circus over, whether Brexit happens or not. I certainly would not vote in a second referendum, if it should come to that; I could not see the point.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I may be wrong, but I think what David is saying is that it has now got to the point that people don't care what happens, they just want the whole circus over, whether Brexit happens or not. I certainly would not vote in a second referendum, if it should come to that; I could not see the point.


I think people are beyond caring in a sense, I think they are just shutting down and feel helpless. learned helplessness ?
I do care but just give up with it all. I dont think i would vote again .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I think people are beyond caring in a sense, I think they are just shutting down and feel helpless. learned helplessness ?
> I do care but just give up with it all. I dont think i would vote again .


It's like a film you wanted to see but half way through became incredibly boring. You can't leave though, until you find out how it ends and whether you're going to be pleased or disappointed.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Remainer stockpiling self-righteousness for no-deal Brexit*
2nd October 2019









*A KEEN Remainer is stockpiling self-righteousness in his garage in preparation for a no-deal Brexit. *

Joseph Turner of Bristol is worried that his previously inexhaustible stocks of smugness will quickly run out once no-deal has happened, so is making sure he still has sufficent supplies in reserve.

He said: "After October 31st, should the worst happen and the idiots get their way, the most important thing is that I'll be able to stand there, arms folded, and say 'I told you so.'

"But with the chaos that's set to ensure - 25-mile lorry queues, restriction of imports from the continent, rationing - there's a real risk that people who are wrong will not be condescended to.

"So I'm stockpiling. Right now I've got self-righteousness to spare. The sensible thing to do is to build up a supply and then, when the country's going to hell, I'll still have a sanctimonious smile playing across my educated lips."

Turner's stocks are expected to last him until the end of November, when an armed gang of Brexiters will raid them then smugly tell him it is all his own fault.


----------



## Britt

I hope I won't need a visa to visit my friends in the UK. That would be a hassle since I travel back and forth o n the same day sometimes ....


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I think people are beyond caring in a sense, I think they are just shutting down and feel helpless. learned helplessness ?
> I do care but just give up with it all. I dont think i would vote again .


Unfortunately, though, this is another thing that BoJo and co wll use to their advantage - Brexit Fatigue, I suppose you'd call it. They know that by dragging out the process and making everything as overly melodramatic as possible many people will get so fed up they'll accept pretty much anything just to bring an end to it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Announced a few minutes ago ............

https://www.ft.com/content/a507c8b4-b412-3563-9647-9ab3ca0facff

*UK publishes its Brexit proposal to EU - latest news*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Announced a few minutes ago ............
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/a507c8b4-b412-3563-9647-9ab3ca0facff
> 
> *UK publishes its Brexit proposal to EU - latest news*


Can't read it unless I pay...


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> It's like a film you wanted to see but half way through became incredibly boring. You can't leave though, until you find out how it ends and whether you're going to be pleased or disappointed.


 I imagine that even people who couldn't be bothered to vote are sick to the back teeth of reading about, and listening to the shenanigans of those who were entrusted with seeing it through. Making and passing laws just to delay and frustrate the process is really something.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Can't read it unless I pay...


OK! Funny that! I wonder why it wasn't behind a paywall for me

Here's another link from CNN News

https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/boris-johnson-brexit-offer-intl-gbr/index.html

*Boris Johnson says his Brexit plan will not have checks at Irish border*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Announced a few minutes ago ............
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/a507c8b4-b412-3563-9647-9ab3ca0facff
> 
> *UK publishes its Brexit proposal to EU - latest news*


 Being asked to ''choose my subscription'' . . .yeah, right!:Cat


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Unfortunately, though, this is another thing that BoJo and co wll use to their advantage - Brexit Fatigue, I suppose you'd call it. They know that by dragging out the process and making everything as overly melodramatic as possible many people will get so fed up they'll accept pretty much anything just to bring an end to it.


But its not Boris and Co who have been dragging out the process. he's only been PM for a few weeks . Brexit fatigue had already happened long before he became PM.
Its the Remainers who have dragged it out hoping that it wont go ahead and to pressurise for another referendum.


----------



## Guest

Barnier seems to like Johnsons proposal for a deal and has got to work on it tonight. He did say alot of work needs to be done another words negotiations need to be done with the United Kingdom.


----------



## Elles

Heck of a speech from Boris.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Heck of a speech from Boris.


He definitely wants to deliver Brexit.


----------



## Guest

Junker says there are some problamatic points in Johnsons deal but have not said no to it. The talks are still going on. This is looking promising.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> But its not Boris and Co who have been dragging out the process. he's only been PM for a few weeks . Brexit fatigue had already happened long before he became PM.
> Its the Remainers who have dragged it out hoping that it wont go ahead and to pressurise for another referendum.


You forget most in the ERG wing of the Tory party, including BJ and JR-M and the DUP rejected Theresa May's Brexit deal too.

People are under the impression all will be well and everything will go back to normal on 31/10/19.

That's only just the start, and with winter and Christmas approaching it could be a very bleak one if food, medical and fuel supply shortages result.....


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Unfortunately, though, this is another thing that BoJo and co wll use to their advantage - Brexit Fatigue, I suppose you'd call it. They know that by dragging out the process and making everything as overly melodramatic as possible many people will get so fed up they'll accept pretty much anything just to bring an end to it.


Conversely, many are arguing, "Just Revoke A50 for heaven's sake".

Is it any wonder why the Lib Dems are doing well in the polls?


----------



## Guest

I am sure @KittenKong there are more of the public who want Brexit delivered than the few who want it cancelling. Don't forget there are those who are also sick of hearing about Brexit.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 418188
> View attachment 418190
> 
> 
> It doesn't say that at all, it points out a large percentage of people couldn't vote either way. I'm sure a percentage that couldn't vote might have voted for Brexit. I posted this to counteract the popular belief that 52% of the UK citizens voted to leave. 17+m is only a fraction of the population, as 16+m is of course.
> 
> Why do you insist Leavers are taking most of the crap? I've yet to see hard Brexit MPs be targeted with death threats. I wouldn't condone it if that was the case.
> 
> So why sympathise with those Leavers who do issue abuse and death threats?
> 
> I strongly opposed the Thatcher government, but at no time did I condone the Brighton bombing.


Do you want babies to be able to vote? 

You can't look at who voted as a % of population. It's ludicrous.

There isn't a 'popular belief' that 52% of UK citizens voted to leave..... 52% of those that could be bothered to vote voted leave.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> You forget most in the ERG wing of the Tory party, including BJ and JR-M and the DUP rejected Theresa May's Brexit deal too.
> 
> People are under the impression all will be well and everything will go back to normal on 31/10/19.
> 
> That's only just the start, and with winter and Christmas approaching it could be a very bleak one if food, medical and fuel supply shortages result.....


Presumably if Johnson gets his deal agreed with the EU and past the HoC nothing will change at all on 31/10/19 because the UK will be in the transition stage for 2 yrs. Must admit I have only glanced at what Johnson has proposed so not sure of the details but guessing as it is a deal that would mean there would be the 2yr transition?

I agree with you it was not only the MPs who wish to remain that rejected Mays deal, the ERG didn't like it, I am surprised they support Johnsons deal. Farage from what little I have read does not and as we have been told many many times The Will of The People what OUT now, a clean break, WTO rules, leave means leave, no one voted for a deal etc etc, the poor old WoTP still won`t get what they want!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> A remainer throws a milkshake at Farage


https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-farage-asa-advertising-twitter-a9127426.html

Whatever is the country becoming? And now ''milkshake'' is also a verb - you can be ''milkshaked/milkshaken'' just like you can be stabbed or shot or strangled. I guess the flavour is up to you.


----------



## Elles

Don’t forget to prepare for an increase in slavery, domestic abuse, hate crime, extremist activity and civil unrest on the 31st October, as warned by the headteacher of a special needs school? Food shortages will be the least of your worries when your stockpiles are taken by rioting mobs.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> But its not Boris and Co who have been dragging out the process. he's only been PM for a few weeks . * Brexit fatigue had already happened long before he became PM*.
> Its the Remainers who have dragged it out hoping that it wont go ahead and to pressurise for another referendum.


I never said it hadn't. Just that BoJo is using it as a weapon of choice for his own ends.

I'd have to disagree that BoJo hasn't been complicit in dragging out the process over the last three years, though. Undermining your own leadership (however hapless they are) and taking pot shots at every opportunity can't be classified as helping things go smoothly...


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Do you want babies to be able to vote?
> 
> You can't look at who voted as a % of population. It's ludicrous.
> 
> There isn't a 'popular belief' that 52% of UK citizens voted to leave.....  52% of those that could be bothered to vote voted leave.


16-17 year olds are not babies! I was in a similar position in 1983 when the GE was held not long before my 18th birthday. As a result, I couldn't vote in that election.

As a touch of irony to this, I would have voted Labour, who proposed a referendum on EEC membership, had they won!

How things change.

I think in life changing situations like leaving the EU, younger people should have had a say, seeing it would be them who'll live with the consequences the longest.

I don't agree that the people who didn't bother voting back leaving. I guess we'll never know either way. I'm more concerned about those who were unable to vote in 2016.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> 16-17 year olds are not babies!


Still hardly covers the 18.5m the ludicrous chart said 'couldn't vote' does it though?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Still hardly covers the 18.5m the ludicrous chart said 'couldn't vote' does it though?


Could it possibly include all those people who would have voted if they'd not so inconveniently died before referendum day?


----------



## Guest

This could go on forever. Why wasn't 16 year old allowed to vote or 17 year olds. In English electoral law they are classed as minors are they not? I thought in England, Wales and Northern Ireland you have to be 18 to vote in Elections and Referendums?

It is a silly arguement that 16 and 17 years olds did not have a voice. They are not old enough to vote that is why.

Rules are rules and laws are laws and they have to be abided to.


----------



## Guest

That is ashame. The European Brexit Steering group has said the European Parliament won't back Boris Johnson's deal.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> That is ashame. The European Brexit Steering group has said the European Parliament won't back Boris Johnson's deal.


Can't say I'm surprised, though. All the stuff on the Irish border question was yet more vague waffle along the lines that we'll find something that works, honest, once we've left - not exactly the detailed plans the EU requested should be in place before leaving. _Surely_ our lot should have worked out by now that rhetoric isn't enough, they also have to show their proposals could actually function in the real world? *sigh*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit will be a chaos in UK and chaos in EU.
Great joy for Putin and Trumps.
Pigs won.

Now Britain will be free - in translation- a vassal, a satellite country of their former colony... ironic!!!

The perspective of a deal with Trump is scary.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit will be a chaos in UK and chaos in EU.


And how exactly have you worked this out?

Travel will continue as normal, Eurostar, Ferries and Flights. Already agreed with the European Union and United Kingdom in the event of a no deal. No one will need visas from the United Kingdom or the European Union for holidays for up to 90 days in any 180 days. Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now.

Also imports and exports will continue in the United Kingdom and the European Union from the United Kingdom including food. The United Kingdom has said there will be free flowing transport from Dover no checks on goods from the European Union.

No chaos there then. Why spread fear when you are wrong.

Links have already been provided previously in this thread from me and @Magyarmum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> And how exactly have you worked this out?
> 
> Travel will continue as normal, Eurostar, Ferries and Flights. Already agreed with the European Union and United Kingdom in the event of a no deal. No one will need visas from the United Kingdom or the European Union for holidays for up to 90 days in any 180 days. Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now.
> 
> Also imports and exports will continue in the United Kingdom and the European Union from the United Kingdom including food. The United Kingdom has said there will be free flowing transport from Dover no checks on goods from the European Union.
> 
> No chaos there then. Why spread fear when you are wrong.
> 
> Links have already been provided previously in this thread from me and @Magyarmum.


Being out of Custom Union for the start...

Irish border, our border...

Workers rights, pensions, health care...

Why do you think Pigs want us out?

They cannot wait to model it on USA...

Yes... it is funny how familiar your posts are...

They call MPs enemies of the people?

Obviously Murdoch, Banks and the lot of ERG are the defenders of the people?

The billionaires like Mr Green love people so much...

BoJo is their mouthpiece, man for hire.

Yes, chaos and then they will tell us to blame EU...

Poorer UK, poorer EU, richer USA fat cats, UK fat cats...


----------



## Vicbloss

saartje said:


> And how exactly have you worked this out?
> 
> Travel will continue as normal, Eurostar, Ferries and Flights. Already agreed with the European Union and United Kingdom in the event of a no deal. No one will need visas from the United Kingdom or the European Union for holidays for up to 90 days in any 180 days. Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now.
> 
> Also imports and exports will continue in the United Kingdom and the European Union from the United Kingdom including food. The United Kingdom has said there will be free flowing transport from Dover no checks on goods from the European Union.
> 
> No chaos there then. Why spread fear when you are wrong.
> 
> Links have already been provided previously in this thread from me and @Magyarmum.


I wonder why then if as you say,"Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now", why are you in the least bit interested in the process?


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> And how exactly have you worked this out?
> 
> Travel will continue as normal, Eurostar, Ferries and Flights. Already agreed with the European Union and United Kingdom in the event of a no deal. No one will need visas from the United Kingdom or the European Union for holidays for up to 90 days in any 180 days. Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now.
> 
> Also imports and exports will continue in the United Kingdom and the European Union from the United Kingdom including food. The United Kingdom has said there will be free flowing transport from Dover no checks on goods from the European Union.
> 
> No chaos there then. Why spread fear when you are wrong.
> 
> Links have already been provided previously in this thread from me and @Magyarmum.


Guess it's fine for someone who won't be affected by this to make these ridiculous comments.

Didn't you hear the UK Home Secretary echoing Theresa May's words that she'll end FoM for good? The UK will soon become the only place in Western Europe that prohibits it's citizens of their FoM rights. None members like Norway and Switzerland allow it.

And this is beyond belief as well as insulting with Mr. "We don't need experts" Gove comparing the fall of the Berlin Wall 30 years ago with the UK exiting the EU.

A border will soon return in Ireland for one thing, even if Johnson's deal passes and not forgetting the loss of the automatic right to live and work across 30 other nations.

Nobody is arguing the right to holiday in the EU will stop, yet it could become prohibitively expensive for many, plus the restrictions and having make preparations for International Driving Permits, a disabled parking permit currently valid across 30 nations having to be applied for, perhaps more than one if traveling through France to get to Spain for example. Mobile phone tarriffs will need updating when roaming free charges end, the need for health insurance for a day trip to France for example.

Not forgetting visas and work permits. If the UK wish to adopt a strict Australian type points system we must expect the same for UK born citizens across the rest of Europe.

Progress? It's turning the bloody clock back 40 years.

I want closer ties with the rest of Europe, not none at all.....

Do you wish something similar to happen where you are? Even the far right across Europe are having second thoughts about leaving the EU.


----------



## kimthecat

Does this charming gentleman know the EU isnt a real place?

Andy Grievbury
@grievbury
#FBPE EU is my home. its always OK to punch a Nazi. All Brexiteers are Facist Nazi's. Bollocks to Brexit and the Brexit Party
Andy Grievbury
@grievbury
·
7h
Utterly amused by all the attack's I've received for exposing all the knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitters are terrorist in training. They don't like being found out for being the fascists scum that they are. To those I say read my heading because that's what you'll get!
Andy Grievbury
@grievbury
·
Oct 2And they wonder why we call them knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitter thickos here is the proof

.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Guess it's fine for someone who won't be affected by this to make these ridiculous comments.


My parents will be affected by any changes.

By the way the latest from Eurostar:









And this about services...









https://www.eurostar.com/rw-en/travel-info/service-information/eurostar-travel-updates

Agreements are already in place @KittenKong as you can see above. United Kingdom citizens can still travel for 90 days in any 180 days visa free to any other European country.

_Fact checking does help you know as it normally discredits untrue rumours on social media and groups you maybe involved in._


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Does this charming gentleman know the EU isnt a real place?
> 
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> #FBPE EU is my home. its always OK to punch a Nazi. All Brexiteers are Facist Nazi's. Bollocks to Brexit and the Brexit Party
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> ·
> 7h
> Utterly amused by all the attack's I've received for exposing all the knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitters are terrorist in training. They don't like being found out for being the fascists scum that they are. To those I say read my heading because that's what you'll get!
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> ·
> Oct 2And they wonder why we call them knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitter thickos here is the proof
> 
> .


Because all the types of people mentioned would back leaving, it is of course wrong to suggest everyone who voted leave is.

It's rather like xenophobes saying all Muslims support Isis and, (at least during the troubles), all Irish people support the IRA.

But I would agree with the poster when he says those who are fascists are terrorists in training.

How else would you describe people making death threats and threatening civil unrest or even civil war if they don't get what they want?

They don't know it yet but when they discover Brexit isn't what they believed it would be, will they continue with these threats? Very likely they will I think.

David Cameron had no idea of the can of worms he was opening. These politicians are hardly a good advert for Eton are they?

Yes, the EU can be seen as home but, as you say, is not a country in its own right. Akin to people saying the UK is a country really.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong Please read this from a credible source and not social media.

Abta says:



















This is the same as current freedom of movement rules for holidays to any country within the European Union so it is not changing:


























https://www.abta.com/tips-and-advice/brexit-advice-for-travellers


----------



## Magyarmum

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/citizens-rights_en

*Citizens' rights*
*EU27 Member States measures on residence rights of legally residing UK nationals and social security entitlements related to the UK in case of no deal*

*UK nationals' residence rights in the EU27*


----------



## Guest

Sorry @KittenKong one more source for you: https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit

If you read this link the information is the same as what I have posted this morning.

Your freedom of movement as a title may end but you will still have the same benefits of travelling to other European countries for up to 90 days for short business trips or leasure in any 180 days which are the rules that exist now under freedom of movement. Plus you will not need a visa to do so.

So tell anyone who is feeding you false information on social media or in the groups you are in they are wrong and to fact check their sources.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Sorey @KittenKong one more source for you: https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit
> 
> If you read this link the information is the same as what I have posted this morning.
> 
> Your freedom of movement as a title may end but you will still have the same benefits of travelling to other European countries for up to 90 days for short business trips or leasure in any 180 days which are the rules that exist now under fresdom of movement. Plus you will not need a visa to do so.
> 
> So tell anyone who is feeding you false information on social media or in the groups you are in they are wrong and to fact check their sources.


Quite frankly you and I are wasting our time!

KK has been given these or similar links several times but having a closed, one track mind, he probably doesn't even read them and certainly isn't going to acknowledge that he might be wrong!

Reminds me of Trump in that respect!


----------



## Guest

I didn't put any links from European Commission articles and statements on here this morning because they are already on here and obviously did not get read last time they got posted on here.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I didn't put any links from European Commission articles and statements on here this morning because they are already on here and obviously did not get read last time they got posted on here.


Exactly!


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Quite frankly you and I are wasting our time!
> 
> KK has been given these or similar links several times but having a closed, one track mind, he probably doesn't even read them and certainly isn't going to acknowledge that he might be wrong!
> 
> Reminds me of Trump in that respect!


I know but I put the information on here this morning so people can see what is fact and what isn't. Up to them if they decide to read it or not but I only posted the facts this morning.


----------



## Guest

If @KittenKong and other remain voters on here who decide to join in wanting to spread false information and get wound up about their un-fact-checked/false information fine but the facts are now on this thread about what will happen in the event of a no deal brexit and the freedom of movement, travel etc.

I have no reason to repeat this now.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Does this charming gentleman know the EU isnt a real place?
> 
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> #FBPE EU is my home. its always OK to punch a Nazi. All Brexiteers are Facist Nazi's. Bollocks to Brexit and the Brexit Party
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> ·
> 7h
> Utterly amused by all the attack's I've received for exposing all the knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitters are terrorist in training. They don't like being found out for being the fascists scum that they are. To those I say read my heading because that's what you'll get!
> Andy Grievbury
> @grievbury
> ·
> Oct 2And they wonder why we call them knuckle dragging fascist brexitshitter thickos here is the proof
> 
> .


Sounds like a reasonable sort of guy :Hilarious(somewhat illiterate tho'). So many of them still think Europe and EU are one and the same thing. And he has the cheek to describe Leavers as ''thickos'' . . . oh, the irony.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> I wonder why then if as you say,"Things are remaining pretty much the same as they are now", why are you in the least bit interested in the process?


I am trying to understand what you mean?

I think I have already given indepth fact based replies with links to there sources that may answer your question.

If you are trying to say why am I so interested in what will happen after Brexit, well my parents and my family are in the United Kingdom and my parents are now planning to come and see me and my partner again in the Netherlands next year, plus we (my partner and I) are planning to come to the United Kingdom again next year. So yes it is important to know the facts on travel etc after Brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Sounds like a reasonable sort of guy :Hilarious(somewhat illiterate tho'). So many of them still think Europe and EU are one and the same thing. And he has the cheek to describe Leavers as ''thickos'' . . . oh, the irony.


And he doesn't realise either that there's a difference, albeit slight, between a Fascist and a Nazi. Maybe he thinks that Italy and Germany are one and the same country, who knows?

https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-...rence-between-fascism-and-nazism-1553251239-1

*What is the difference between Fascism and Nazism?*


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I guess 17+m against 8+m can be seen as decisive, unlike 17+m against 16+m. The 16+m have been completely forgotten in favour of the 17+m, as if 99.9% of the population voted to leave.


Yes , the vote was more decisive then but if the people had known then that staying in the Common market would lead to the EU and the Maastricht treaty etc they might have turned out to vote against it. The fact is , regardless of statistics , only 17 + out of a population of 55 million voted to remain .
I hope this can be resolved so that all sides are satisfied, but I cant see that happening , it would take a miracle .


----------



## Vicbloss

saartje said:


> I am trying to understand what you mean?
> 
> I think I have already given indepth fact based replies with links to there sources that may answer your question.
> 
> If you are trying to say why am I so interested in what will happen after Brexit, well my parents and my family are in the United Kingdom and my parents are now planning to come and see me and my partner again in the Netherlands next year, plus we (my partner and I) are planning to come to the United Kingdom again next year. So yes it is important to know the facts on travel etc after Brexit.


Most people are interested in things that affect them and as you said you believe things will go on as normal post Brexit, it doesn't follow then that you should be so interested in such an inconsequential process. Some people are excited by Brexit others fearful of it and this is why they are interested in it but you do not seem to fall into either of these catergories. Hence my confusion.

Neither are your parents likely to be hard hit by Brexit seeing as they presumably belong to the older generation.

As for your visits to the UK and their visits to you, I don't think anybody is worried about not being able to go on holiday to Europe or people coming on holiday to the UK. Travel could be disrupted initially but is unlikely to be so long term. I know you say there are agreements on that and other things in place but ever heard of agreements being torn up?

In my opinion Brexit will undoubtedly have an affect on people living in the UK as well as its standing in the world. Perhaps not forever but for a time at least. In fact it has already has done so. There's no link I can put here for this but I think many people living in the UK would agree that it feels a different place to the one it was pre Brexit. And perhaps more importantly, it appears to be a very different place to the one it was pre Brexit.

As for the links you keep posting, take this one for example https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-brexit This is simply what the government is telling people and if Brexit has taught us anything, it is that you cannot trust what the government tells you. For instance, it states that the UK will leave the EU on October 31. Most commentators here in the UK say this is highly unlikely.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> Most people are interested in things that affect them and as you said you believe things will go on as normal post Brexit, it doesn't follow then that you should be so interested in such an inconsequential process. Some people are excited by Brexit others fearful of it and this is why they are interested in it but you do not seem to fall into either of these catergories. Hence my confusion.
> 
> Neither are your parents likely to be hard hit by Brexit seeing as they presumably belong to the older generation.
> 
> As for your visits to the UK and their visits to you, I don't think anybody is worried about not being able to go on holiday to Europe or people coming on holiday to the UK. Travel could be disrupted initially but is unlikely to be so long term. I know you say there are agreements on that and other things in place but ever heard of agreements being torn up?
> 
> In my opinion Brexit will undoubtedly have an affect on people living in the UK as well as its standing in the world. Perhaps not forever but for a time at least. In fact it has already has done so. There's no link I can put here for this but I think many people living in the UK would agree that it feels a different place to the one it was pre Brexit. And perhaps more importantly, it appears to be a very different place to the one it was pre Brexit.


The Netherlands is a different than it was in 2016. The world is a different place since 2016.

I don't see why people need to scaremonger on things.

There is no intention for the agreements to be torn up. They will only change if the United Kingdom passes laws to change them, but they won't be able to change a withdrawal agreement if one is made. The European Union will not change any agreements.

Regarding if there is no deal on the withdrawal agreement the United Kingdom is still expected to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union. The United Kingdom will still be trading with the European Union on Brexit day +1.

It is not the European Union kicking the United Kingdom out, it is the United Kingdom that is leaving the European Union.

My mum and dad or family in the United Kingdom have not noticed any drastic changes. They will be affected by any changes. Brexit seems to be blamed for everything that does change in the United Kingdom when the majority of the time it isn't anything to do with Brexit.

All I say is check your facts with credible sources instead of believing what Joe Bloggs says in the street, social media, in the pub, or in groups. Alot of what people are stressing about have not happened yet, may not happen or is false.


----------



## Guest

@Vicbloss Regarding your update on your post regarding what the United Kingdom Government are saying it is backed up by what the European Union Council have agreed. Links are in this thread provided by me and @Magyarmum.

These agreements as I said before have been agreed by the European Union if there is a no deal. The European Union won't rip them up. If the United Kingdom decides to change them in the United Kingdom then the European Union will change them to reflect what the United Kingdom have done.

The United Kingdom decided to leave so they cannot have everything they have now unless the United Kingdom Government changes its mind and decides to remain or have an agreement like the European Union has with Switzerland and other countries who agree to abide with European Union Laws etc but this is not happening.

The United Kingdom has already signed other trading agreements with other countries outside of the European Union which has already been talked about in this thread and credible links to resources provided to prove this.

Trading won't stop with the United Kingom when it leaves.

Travel will not stop to other European Union countries.

United Kingdom Citizens will have the same rights as they do under the freedom of movement agreement other European Union countries have and the United Kingdom has right now as travel for short business trips and liesure as they do now without needing a visa.

So what is changing?
How is it affecting people as all these things I have mentioned today with you and others are not changing when other posters intent on scarring people are saying they are?


----------



## Vicbloss

Sorry to burst your bubble but there are no truly credible sources on Brexit. Joe Bloggs, social media, people in the pub or in groups are just as likely to be right about what will happen as the government. The fact of the matter is nobody knows what is going to happen. That is the whole point. 
I have never been to the Netherlands so I can't comment on the changing situation there but just type "Britain feels different since Brexit" and see the plethora of articles that come up. The fact that your family has not noticed does not mean Britain hasn't changed. More likely they are lucky enough to be protected from those changes.


----------



## Vicbloss

Glad you are so sure about what will happen because nobody else is! Re your links, try casting your net a little wider...


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but there are no truly credible sources on Brexit. Joe Bloggs, social media, people in the pub or in groups are just as likely to be right about what will happen as the government. The fact of the matter is nobody knows what is going to happen. That is the whole point.
> I have never been to the Netherlands so I can't comment on the changing situation there but just type "Britain feels different since Brexit" and see the plethora of articles that come up. The fact that your family has not noticed does not mean Britain hasn't changed. More likely they are lucky enough to be protected from those changes.


So you are saying European Union Council statements are false and the agreements made for a no deal brexit are to?

Everything changes all the time, so do laws, customs, food prices, peoples mind sets and ways of thinking. Ofcourse the United Kingdom has changed so have other countries. The world does not stand still. The world is a different place than it was last year let alone 2016.


----------



## Guest

Deleted.


----------



## Vicbloss

Sorry, but if that's not someone throwing their toys out of the pram, I don't know what is!

FYI, I have been following this thread and I've had a little chuckle to myself when you said such things as, "It's Parliament against the people!" and the UK General Election will have nothing to do with Brexit. And getting annoyed when people don't read your links. And having above all else to be right.

As for people saying the same thing over and over, I cannot begin to estimate the times you have said: "if I remained a United Kingdom citizen and was allowed to vote in the United Kingdom I would have voted remain. But life took me down a different path 20 years ago and I eventually became a Dutch citizen."


----------



## kimthecat

Vicbloss said:


> Sorry, but if that's not someone throwing their toys out of the pram, I don't know what is!
> 
> FYI, I have been following this thread and I've had a little chuckle to myself when you said such things as, "It's Parliament against the people!" and the UK General Election will have nothing to do with Brexit. And getting annoyed when people don't read your links. And having above all else to be right.
> 
> As for people saying the same thing over and over, I cannot begin to estimate the times you have said: "if I remained a United Kingdom citizen and was allowed to vote in the United Kingdom I would have voted remain. But life took me down a different path 20 years ago and I eventually became a Dutch citizen."


You know , this forum is open to everybody and we have members from abroad and they are entitled to give their opinion on Brexit whether they are affected by it or not. It seems to me that you're the one throwing their toys out of the pram.


----------



## Elles

If they’re right and there are food, water and medicine shortages and restricted travel, why will it not affect older people? Do the elderly not eat, drink, or need medications? Do they not retire abroad, visit family and friends living abroad, or go on holidays? What is it that exempts older voters from the brexit fears?


----------



## Vicbloss

@kimthecat cat, it was me who was effectively told I was not welcome on this thread in post no, 14955
Please tell me where I said that people from overseas were not welcome to give their opinion. Enquiring as to why they are borderline obsessed with it is different. Also, how exactly have I thrown my toys out of the pram?
@Elles, I didn't say they wouldn't be effected. I said they would be less hard hit. In @saartje's opinion they won't be affected at all because things will carry on as usual.

@saartje Perhaps take a look at these articles. Trade agreements and travel rights are one thing, it's the subtleties of Brexit that I am concerned about too. I am sure I don't need to tell you about how important it is to protect the hard won rights of LGBT+ people and anything that threatens that in any way is a concern to me.

This from a highly regarded academic and lawyer
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/how-could-brexit-affect-lgbt-rights/

This from Stonewall
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/node/63149

There are many many other articles online too, many from reputable organisations with real concerns.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> @kimthecat cat, it was me who was effectively told I was not unwelcome on this thread in post no, 14955
> Please tell me where I said that people from overseas were not welcome to give their opinion. Enquiring as to why they are borderline obsessed with it is different. Also, how exactly have I thrown my toys out of the pram?
> @Elles, I didn't say they wouldn't be effected. I said they would be less hard hit. In @saartje's opinion they won't be affected at all because things will carry on as usual.
> 
> @saartje Perhaps take a look at these articles. Trade agreements and travel rights are one thing, it's the subtleties of Brexit that I am concerned about too. I am sure I don't need to tell you about how important it is to protect the hard won rights of LGBT+ people and anything that threatens that in any way is a concern to me.
> 
> This from a highly regarded academic and lawyer
> https://ukandeu.ac.uk/how-could-brexit-affect-lgbt-rights/
> 
> This from Stonewall
> https://www.stonewall.org.uk/node/63149
> 
> There are many many other articles online too, many from reputable organisations with real concerns.


Thank you for mentioning me I will have a read of the articles you have posted but to be totally honest I am just going to keep quiet on this thread (not post any further). Thanks any way.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> You know , this forum is open to everybody and we have members from abroad and they are entitled to give their opinion on Brexit whether they are affected by it or not. It seems to me that you're the one throwing their toys out of the pram.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> @kimthecat cat, it was me who was effectively told I was not unwelcome on this thread in post no, 14955


I didn't say that at all of course you are welcome. Welcome to the thread, enjoy and have fun.

I have deleted the post as not to cause you any offence as it was not meant that way and was not aimed at you personally.


----------



## Vicbloss

@saartje No worries. Hope you find the articles interesting. I think not posting any more is a good idea for me too


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> Neither are your parents likely to be hard hit by Brexit seeing as they presumably belong to the older generation.


Is what you said. If after brexit, as is claimed, there will be food, water and medicine shortages and restrictions on travel, why will the older generation be less affected? Why would a younger person be hard hit by Brexit and not an older person?

One could assume that a young, fit, healthy person is less likely to die from these dire effects, than an older person who relies on medication, or are likely to in the not too distant future, If as an individual they are fit, healthy and take care of themselves, they are just as likely to be affected by brexit as any young person and for many years to come.

Older people are often more aware of their own mortality than younger, so I'd say they are less, not more likely to vote for something they fear will be detrimental and not of benefit. Hence older people voting for brexit believe it will be advantageous to themselves, their children and their children's children and no one has proved otherwise.

It is a common accusation levelled at older voters in this country. If they aren't feeble minded and selfish, they're about to drop dead so don't care about the consequences. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it is by far the worst insult levelled at any group of voters.


----------



## Vicbloss

@Elles Thanks for pointing out what I said. Think I already knew what I said but thanks anyway.
Just caught a new report that BJ is likely to ask for an extension now so this debate is just going to go on and on.
It's pretty clear that people's views are so entrenched that putting forward alternative ones or arguing over points is in many ways futile so I'll leave it there.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Hence older people voting for brexit


And, obviously, older people know how things were before UK joined the EU and that the country fared perfectly well. . . younger ones have nothing to compare it with as they were not born then.


----------



## Elles

You haven’t put forward any alternative views. You’re repeating remainer warnings that we’ve been reading for years. What exactly would you like us to do?

We get all these warnings about Armageddon. I’m not stockpiling anything, that just leads to panic buying and unnecessary shortages. You couldn’t pay me to vote for Corbyn, who, alongside the majority of his colleagues said they respected the result and would leave the Eu anyway. I support democracy and that the people are sovereign, so accept the result. 

I voted to remain in the Eu, despite though, not because of the Eu. I also voted for the Green Party. I don’t get what I voted for, because the majority don’t want it, but what they do want is still democratic, so I can’t argue. My area is represented by a gay MP who is and has been totally honest about what he stands for and I respect him too. People who voted for him knew what they were voting for.

I don’t agree that there were any provisos on the leave vote. They didn’t say we’d only leave if we got a deal, or we’d leave, but only if we stay in the single market, or we’d leave, but only if.. People voted to leave the Eu.

Many MPs who previously said they respect the result and were voted back in on that understanding, are and have been lying about it and doing everything in their considerable power to delay brexit, lead to an overturning of article 50 and eventually hope to stay in the Eu. It’s what I expected and posted here shortly after the result 3 years ago. I’m sad to see that I was quite right. Most Politicians believe their opinion and benefits are more important than anyone else’s and I don’t exclude brexit MPs, though they are whose belief and wants happen to coincide with that of the people who were given a once in a lifetime opportunity to leave the Eu and tried to take it.

To my mind what parliament are doing with new laws and new interpretation of laws to thwart brexit is unconscionable. They should have agreed to a general election, but I think now the masks are coming off have a good chance of losing their seats, which is why they’re using tactics and lawyers instead.


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> @Elles Thanks for pointing out what I said. Think I already knew what I said but thanks anyway.
> Just caught a new report that BJ is likely to ask for an extension now so this debate is just going to go on and on.
> It's pretty clear that people's views are so entrenched that putting forward alternative ones or arguing over points is in many ways futile so I'll leave it there.


You can't answer my question?


----------



## Vicbloss

I just don't want to get into a dog fight. It would achieve nothing other than to give you what you want.


----------



## kimthecat

Everybody, perhaps we should just let this go and move on . 
i think this uncertainty gets to everyone.

What is the latest news ?


----------



## Elles

Jo Swinson’s husband who was a Lib Dem mp, is now head of a company based in Berlin that received 3.5m from the Eu.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Jo Swinson's husband who was a Lib Dem mp, is now head of a company based in Berlin that received 3.5m from the Eu.


 :Woot Well ! Thats a turn up for the books!


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> :Woot Well ! Thats a turn up for the books!


That was just what they got last year. I didn't believe it, so did some digging and found it in a pdf on the company's website. It really doesn't look good, however innocent it may or may not be.

Boris is now saying that he will send the extension letter, but we are still leaving on the 31st Oct. I wonder if they've backed him into a corner, or if he still has something up his sleeve.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> That was just what they got last year. I didn't believe it, so did some digging and found it in a pdf on the company's website. It really doesn't look good, however innocent it may or may not be.
> 
> Boris is now saying that he will send the extension letter, but we are still leaving on the 31st Oct. I wonder if they've backed him into a corner, or if he still has something up his sleeve.


https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/04...no-deal-reached-by-october-19-court-documents
*
Johnson museek Brexit extension if no deal reached by October 19 - court documentsst *

https://www.instituteforgovernment....utm_campaign=001K&utm_term=Parliament&utm_con

*The Benn Act*


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> That was just what they got last year. I didn't believe it, so did some digging and found it in a pdf on the company's website. It really doesn't look good, however innocent it may or may not be.
> 
> Boris is now saying that he will send the extension letter, but we are still leaving on the 31st Oct. I wonder if they've backed him into a corner, or if he still has something up his sleeve.


Nothing up his sleeve 










I think he has to send the extension letter by law.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> And, obviously, older people know how things were before UK joined the EU and that the country fared perfectly well. . . younger ones have nothing to compare it with as they were not born then.


Younger people won't even remember blue passports for heaven's sake. Is there anything to gain from looking backwards rather than forwards?

It was a very different world back in 1972. You had, at the very most, three TV channels for another 10 years before CH4 started. Cars and even telephones were seen as a luxury, let alone colour TV.

We can reminisce but Brexit won't bring those days back.

It's rather like when I was young, the saying was to bring back National (Military) Service as the older generation had to do it. "Teach 'em a bit of discipline wouldn't it", was the saying.

The idea of that was as alien to me as blue passports and the loss of FoM will be to those under 30 in the present day.

I looked for and found work when I was 16 on leaving school. Even though benefits were available for people of that age at the time I was determined to earn my own money.

Then came redundancy in December 1983..........


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Nothing up his sleeve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think he has to send the extension letter by law.


A natural born liar. We've been saying that since his £350m a week promise for the NHS.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> To my mind what parliament are doing with new laws and new interpretation of laws to thwart brexit is unconscionable


This is what I find totally unacceptable: making and passing laws simply to frustrate a (supposedly) ''democratic'' process. I am not sure I have ever heard of this being done before - tho', of course, it may well have. It's the sort of thing Henry the Eighth would have done to get his own way. I doubt I shall ever vote again - but maybe they will pass a law to ban voting anyway.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> This is what I find totally unacceptable: making and passing laws simply to frustrate a (supposedly) ''democratic'' process. I am not sure I have ever heard of this being done before - tho', of course, it may well have. It's the sort of thing Henry the Eighth would have done to get his own way. I doubt I shall ever vote again - but maybe they will pass a law to ban voting anyway.


There was no PV for No Deal.
Parliament was elected by the people and represent the people, not only those who want No Deal at all cost.

I don't think that all 52% wanted out of Single Market and out of Custom Union.

The consequences are not any scaremongering.

They are obvious. We will lose all the benefits they give us.
In exchange of what benefits of Brexit, real ones, not slogans.


----------



## cheekyscrip

For Trump, for BoJo....


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> And, obviously, *older people know how things were before UK joined the EU *and that the country fared perfectly well. . . younger ones have nothing to compare it with as they were not born then.


And I'm one of them, I was married before we joined, so I do have something to compare it with, that's why I voted to Remain!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> And I'm one of them, I was married before we joined, so I do have something to compare it with, that's why I voted to Remain!!


So was I and I was also the mother of two young sons.

Had I been allowed to vote I would have voted Leave


----------



## Britt

It looks as if BoJo is going to ask for an extension after all ....


----------



## Magyarmum

Britt said:


> It looks as if BoJo is going to ask for an extension after all ....


He has to under the terms of the Benn Act.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-by-october-19-court-documents-idUSKBN1WJ1BR

*UK PM Johnson will ask for Brexit extension if no deal by October 19, court told*


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> There was no PV for No Deal.


Yes. There was. Remain in the Eu, or Leave. No provisos, no quid pro quos when we let this genie out of the bottle.

If we have a second referendum it should be deal or no deal. We already voted to leave. If Boris agrees a deal with the Eu, they can ask us to vote on it if they like, but there should be no remain, as we should have already left. We should know that if we vote for something like this, come hell or high water it will happen, so think carefully, before you put that x in the box.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 418605


This isn't actually true though, is it?


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> We can reminisce but Brexit won't bring those days back.


Not reminiscing; just saying,


Happy Paws2 said:


> And I'm one of them, I was married before we joined, so I do have something to compare it with, that's why I voted to Remain!!


Fine; so did we all (vote for what we wanted)..


----------



## Happy Paws2

Britt said:


> It looks as if BoJo is going to ask for an extension after all ....


 look a flying pig has just gone past the window 

He says one thing and still does something else, I never believe one word that man ever says.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Not reminiscing; just saying,
> 
> *Fine;* so did we all (vote for what we wanted)..


was that said with venom, I think so.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> look a flying pig has just gone past the window
> 
> He says one thing and still does something else, I never believe one word that man ever says.


See my reply to Britt ..........................



Magyarmum said:


> He has to under the terms of the Benn Act.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-by-october-19-court-documents-idUSKBN1WJ1BR
> 
> *UK PM Johnson will ask for Brexit extension if no deal by October 19, court told*


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> was that said with venom, I think so.


I can't think of any reason why it would be. It was one simple word. Had the one word been ''bollocks'' I could understand why you ask. 
I don't let Brexit (or lack of) cause me any upset - I happen to think that life is too short (which is why I find it strange and unacceptable that some posters are so vehemently hostile).


----------



## Elles

Do Hungary want to leave the Eu?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Do Hungary want to leave the Eu?


Are you asking me? Why do you ask?


----------



## Elles

The Hungarians have been meeting with Boris.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> This isn't actually true though, is it?


Really? Priti Patel, echoing Theresa May's words suggest otherwise. This is the future the leave voters voted for.

The UK will soon be the only place that doesn't allow its citizens their _automatic _right to live and work across 30 other nations.

Means, for example, I won't be legally able to help out friends running a restaurant in Spain without applying for a work permit in advance in much the same way I would if applying in the US or Australia.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Really? Priti Patel, echoing Theresa May's words suggest otherwise. This is the future the leave voters voted for.
> 
> The UK will soon be the only place that doesn't allow its citizens their _automatic _right to live and work across 30 other nations.
> 
> Means, for example, I won't be legally able to help out friends running a restaurant in Spain without applying for a work permit in advance in much the same way I would if applying in the US or Australia.


You're exaggerating again!

You will be able to live or work in Spain for 90 days before applying for a permit, something expat's in Hungary have always had to do even though we are/were in the EU.

And you don't have to apply in advance!

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/citizens-rights_en

*UK nationals' residence rights in the EU27*

And no it's nothing like applying to live/work in the US or Australia

http://www.visaamerica.com/our_services_overview/

*How can I live and work in the United States?*

https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-australia

*A Comprehensive Guide on Relocating to Australia*


----------



## Britt

Happy Paws2 said:


> look a flying pig has just gone past the window
> 
> He says one thing and still does something else, I never believe one word that man ever says.


He's Trumps brother from another mother


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> You're exaggerating again!
> 
> You will be able to live or work in Spain for 90 days before applying for a permit, something expat's in Hungary have always had to do even though we are/were in the EU.
> 
> And you don't have to apply in advance!
> 
> https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/citizens-rights_en
> 
> *UK nationals' residence rights in the EU27*
> 
> And no it's nothing like applying to live/work in the US or Australia
> 
> http://www.visaamerica.com/our_services_overview/
> 
> *How can I live and work in the United States?*
> 
> https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-australia
> 
> *A Comprehensive Guide on Relocating to Australia*


You are probably wasting your time posting this like I was posting what I posted the other day.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Do Hungary want to leave the Eu?





Elles said:


> The Hungarians have been meeting with Boris.


I believe there was some talk before the UK referendum of Hungary considering leaving the EU, but I think they decided against it when they realised how complicated it was going to be. I suspect that the EU were rather disappointed as I think they would have liked to have seen the back of Hungary and the other members of the Visegrad Four as they're considered to be troublemakers.

Hungary has always maintained a fairly neutral stance over Brexit having said that it's none of their affair and they respect the decision of the British people.

Peter Szijjarto Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade was in London to meet business leaders and to discuss the rights of Hungarian citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in Hungary. Nothing sinister or untoward!

https://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-...rians-cannot-be-reduced-even-following-brexit

*Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade*

*The rights of Hungarians cannot be reduced even following Brexit
*


----------



## Vicbloss

@saartje

Sorry I can't quote properly but you said: "You are probably wasting your time posting this like I was posting what I posted the other day."

Genuine question, what exactly would have to happen for you to feel that you are not wasting your time? Or Magyarmum is not wasting her time? Would it require everyone to agree with you both to make you feel like your time had been well spent?
I must admit that is how it comes across to me.


----------



## KittenKong

Lol:Hilarious, only last week Steven Yaxley-Lennon was giving praise to Johnson.

Now the extreme right have called him a liar.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> @saartje
> 
> Sorry I can't quote properly but you said: "You are probably wasting your time posting this like I was posting what I posted the other day."
> 
> Genuine question, what exactly would have to happen for you to feel that you are not wasting your time? Or Magyarmum is not wasting her time? Would it require everyone to agree with you both to make you feel like your time had been well spent?
> I must admit that is how it comes across to me.


Haha. I see the trap here.
I am not bothering replying what I was going to say (which I was half way through doing when I realised this is) because you seem to be shadowing me to cause an arguement.

I will just leave things here with you.


----------



## Guest

This thread seems to have out lived its purpose as people are repeating the same arguements all the time over and over again in my opinion because they dont like what they are hearing/reading.

That is why I compared this thread with ground hog day the other day. The day is repeated in a loop in the hope that it will change the outcome like the same questions keep being asked by certain people in the hope the answers will change on this thread. Nothing has progressed except a meaningless arguement.

This is my observations and opinions on this thread.


----------



## Vicbloss

@saartje Ok, if that is how you feel.
I was interested because in my opinion this thread is a waste of everyone's time. A bit like Brexit itself. People's views are so entrenched they are unlikely to change whatever others post.
It turns out we agree though: "Nothing has progressed except a meaningless argument." 
Seriously, I'm sorry if you felt I was targeting you. I didn't mean to and I wasn't looking for an argument but apologies if I made you feel that way.


----------



## Guest

Vicbloss said:


> @saartje
> Seriously, I'm sorry if you felt I was targeting you. I didn't mean to and I wasn't looking for an argument but apologies if I made you feel that way.


Don't worry about it.


----------



## Elles

Why would anyone agree, or disagree for that matter, with information posted on government websites and by the Eu regarding passports/travel etc post brexit? If someone has become confused, misinformed, unnecessarily concerned, I don’t see why factual links to official announcements can really be argued against. The problem arises when people don’t read the links and repeat the same misinformation that’s bothering them.


----------



## Elles

Friendly discussion on a forum isn’t a waste of time btw. It’s what a forum is for. On the whole, this brexit thread has been ok and as there is new information and new developments practically on a daily basis, I doubt it’s come to the end of its life just yet.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> This thread seems to have out lived its purpose as people are repeating the same arguements all the time over and over again in my opinion because they dont like what they are hearing/reading.
> 
> That is why I compared this thread with ground hog day the other day. The day is repeated in a loop in the hope that it will change the outcome like the same questions keep being asked by certain people in the hope the answers will change on this thread. Nothing has progressed except a meaningless arguement.
> 
> This is my observations and opinions on this thread.


*I think this thread has done very well. As for people repeating things, sounds a bit like the government, they don't seem to have changed much on the brexit front. Until the brexit deal/no deal is sorted out i think there is still room for debate.*


----------



## Guest

I am staying out of this simply because in my opinion when facts are posted they are getting ignored. The facts I am talking about are European Union Council links on travel after the United Kingdoms exit and abta websites information on travel, passports and travel insurance which was put together with information from the European Union Councils website. Even the United Kingdoms Government website quotes information on what has been agreed with the European Union already yet some on here just dismiss it and ignore the facts and put their fingers in their ears.

I am sorry if I was blunt yesterday in my post but it does get a bit much reading the same arguements being presented because people cannot be bothered to read factual evidence and instead have to repeatedly scaremonger each other and newbies. It just gets a bit much having to repeat all the time the evidence that proves their information is wrong or incorrect and outdated.

So for this reason folks I am remaining out of this thread. I am unlinking myself from it and will appreciate if I am not quoted on it.

Thank you for your time in reading this.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> I am staying out of this simply because in my opinion when facts are posted they are getting ignored. The facts I am talking about are European Union Council links on travel after the United Kingdoms exit and abta websites information on travel, passports and travel insurance which was put together with information from the European Union Councils website. Even the United Kingdoms Government website quotes information on what has been agreed with the European Union already yet some on here just dismiss it and ignore the facts and put their fingers in their ears.
> 
> I am sorry if I was blunt yesterday in my post but it does get a bit much reading the same arguements being presented because people cannot be bothered to read factual evidence and instead have to repeatedly scaremonger each other and newbies. It just gets a bit much having to repeat all the time the evidence that proves their information is wrong or incorrect and outdated.
> 
> So for this reason folks I am remaining out of this thread. I am unlinking myself from it and will appreciate if I am not quoted on it.
> 
> Thank you for your time in reading this.


Not the first and not the last time...


----------



## Calvine

Vicbloss said:


> it was me who was effectively told I was not welcome on this thread in post no, 14955


Post 14955 seems to have been deleted (as far as I can see)?


----------



## Vicbloss

Elles said:


> Friendly discussion on a forum isn't a waste of time btw. It's what a forum is for. On the whole, this brexit thread has been ok and as there is new information and new developments practically on a daily basis, I doubt it's come to the end of its life just yet.


FTFY
Friendly discussion on a forum isn't a waste of time in my opinion btw. I think it's what a forum is for. On the whole, this Brexit thread has been ok and as there is new information and new developments practically on a daily basis, I doubt it's come to the end of its life just yet. 

As for government websites, no, no need to question the info on there at all. As well as death and taxes, we can be certain that governments will always be honest with the people.


----------



## KittenKong

This is another thing to consider. Will guide and assistance dogs will be permitted to travel to the EU in a post Brexit UK without the added complications of additional expense, delays and paperwork once the EU Pet passports are no longer valid?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49863444


----------



## KittenKong

You wouldn't see this on the BBC!
Well said that woman!

https://www.facebook.com/701686533351390/posts/1183328801853825/?sfnsn=mo&d=n&vh=e


----------



## Vicbloss

Well said that woman! Looking forward to seeing it as a YouTube mash up


----------



## Elles

Cheeky has been expressing concern about travelling to and from the Eu (Spain to Gib and back) with her pets, to visit a vet. Her pets are as important as NI ones. How come no one is mentioning Gibraltar? I would expect Ireland and NI to be working on an agreement over pets and guide dogs, or is it only the Eu that can? Britain can agree to pet passports from the Eu being valid here, have we though? One concern was over puppies being brought in and sold from car parks, so some have been calling for greater checks and restrictions anyway. What are the Eu saying?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 418768
> View attachment 418769
> This is another thing to consider. Will guide and assistance dogs will be permitted to travel to the EU in a post Brexit UK without the added complications of additional expense, delays and paperwork once the EU Pet passports are no longer valid?
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49863444
> 
> View attachment 418766


https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/movement-animals-pet-travel-brexit-qa#toc-6

*Movement of animals - pet travel - Brexit Q&A*

*I am travelling from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland will I be exempt?*
No, pets moving from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland will need to comply with the new arrangements. DAERA would therefore recommend that before you travel to any EU country that you should contact the relevant competent veterinary authority in order to confirm any specific entry requirements and discuss these with your vet.

*Will my documentation be checked travelling into ROI?*
Historically, in recognition of the negligible risk of rabies associated with the movement of pets between the jurisdictions, there have been no systematic border checks on pets moving between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. DAERA would recommend however that before you travel you should contact the competent veterinary authority in the EU member state you are travelling to in order to confirm any specific entry requirements.

*Assistance dogs*
*Will assistance dogs be exempt?*
Recognised Assistance Dogs must currently follow the same rules as those for pet animals and this will continue.


----------



## Elles

Ireland is already different in many ways to Northern Ireland and the U.K. At the moment the Eu, the U.K. and Ireland are saying there will not be a border. For there to be one someone has to pay for it and man it. Are they going to put up a border, deport and arrest blind people? We will have to see what happens. At the moment there can’t legally be a no deal brexit anyway and if there isn’t a deal, there will be an extension.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Ireland is already different in many ways to Northern Ireland and the U.K. At the moment the Eu, the U.K. and Ireland are saying there will not be a border. For there to be one someone has to pay for it and man it. Are they going to put up a border, deport and arrest blind people? We will have to see what happens. At the moment there can't legally be a no deal brexit anyway and if there isn't a deal, there will be an extension.


I pray for it, because I have to see the vet in Spain and autumn means Garfield will be worse... Scrip needs regular check up and both need medication...and tests...


----------



## Magyarmum

Vicbloss said:


> @saartje
> 
> Sorry I can't quote properly but you said: "You are probably wasting your time posting this like I was posting what I posted the other day."
> 
> Genuine question, what exactly would have to happen for you to feel that you are not wasting your time? Or Magyarmum is not wasting her time? Would it require everyone to agree with you both to make you feel like your time had been well spent?
> I must admit that is how it comes across to me.


As my name was mentioned I felt I should reply to your post.

You've taken @saartje post out of context.

It has nothing to do with the thread in general as you appear to believe. Saartje's comment was specifically about my post no 14996 which in turn was a reply to post no 14995 particularly the sentence quoted below ....
*
"Means, for example, I won't be legally able to help out friends running a restaurant in Spain without applying for a work permit in advance in much the same way I would if applying in the US or Australia." *

As you "liked" the post I can only assume you believe the poster is correct and agree with what was said about visas. The poster is not correct, a fact I pointed out in my post no 14996.

This is not the first or even the fifth time the poster has made such erroneous statements about travelling after Brexit, which as a relative newcomer you might not have noticed unless you've read posts from months back. Each time they do, either Saartje or I go to the trouble of researching and posting the correct information.which becomes tedious but something I consider important so anyone reading the thread is not misinformed.

Unfortunately for us it doesn't seem to make a blind bit of difference and I doubt whether the poster even read our posts so in that respect it is a waste of our time!

Which brings me back to the point that contrary to what you appear to think I certainly don't need people to agree with me to boost my ego thank you very much!


----------



## KittenKong

And to think, many who were allowed to vote, voted to leave.

Can't say I have much sympathy for those who did vote leave to be honest.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tons-eu-face-loss-healthcare?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## Vicbloss

KittenKong said:


> And to think, many who were allowed to vote, voted to leave.
> 
> Can't say I have much sympathy for those who did vote leave to be honest.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tons-eu-face-loss-healthcare?CMP=share_btn_fb
> 
> View attachment 418830


I was chatting to an English neighbour the other day (I'm in Scotland). He told me he didn't think BJ was up to the job so he was going to vote for Nigel Farage so we could finally leave.
I thought it best to change the subject and we got on to the weather. "I need to live somewhere warm really," he said. "Where would you go?" I asked. "Spain or Portugal are the obvious choices," he replied.
Now I'm not saying it's not going to be possible and I don't know what his reasons were for voting Leave but it seems pretty certain that he has at the very least made his life a whole lot harder!


----------



## Jesthar

Vicbloss said:


> I thought it best to change the subject and we got on to the weather. "I need to live somewhere warm really," he said. "Where would you go?" I asked. "Spain or Portugal are the obvious choices," he replied.
> Now I'm not saying it's not going to be possible and I don't know what his reasons were for voting Leave but it seems pretty certain that he has at the very least made his life a whole lot harder!


Oh, you wouldn't be the only one on this thread to know someone who thinks the the Freedom of Movement restrictions will only apply one way, i.e. to foreigners entering the UK, not British people exiting...


----------



## Vicbloss

Magyarmum said:


> As my name was mentioned I felt I should reply to your post.
> 
> You've taken @saartje post out of context.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the thread in general as you appear to believe. Saartje's comment was specifically about my post no 14996 which in turn was a reply to post no 14995 particularly the sentence quoted below ....
> *
> "Means, for example, I won't be legally able to help out friends running a restaurant in Spain without applying for a work permit in advance in much the same way I would if applying in the US or Australia." *
> 
> As you "liked" the post I can only assume you believe the poster is correct and agree with what was said about visas. The poster is not correct, a fact I pointed out in my post no 14996.
> 
> This is not the first or even the fifth time the poster has made such erroneous statements about travelling after Brexit, which as a relative newcomer you might not have noticed unless you've read posts from months back. Each time they do, either Saartje or I go to the trouble of researching and posting the correct information.which becomes tedious but something I consider important so anyone reading the thread is not misinformed.
> 
> Unfortunately for us it doesn't seem to make a blind bit of difference and I doubt whether the poster even read our posts so in that respect it is a waste of our time!
> 
> Which brings me back to the point that contrary to what you appear to think I certainly don't need people to agree with me to boost my ego thank you very much!


Lots to address! I didn't necessarily agree with KK's whole post, it was the upper part I was liking really. But I can see why one would assume that I agreed with the lower part as well. I think I'd just watched Priti Patel at the Tory conference so any post that mentioned her in a negative way was going to get a like from me.
I never accused anyone of needing an ego boost.
I think my main problem is when someone uses phrases such as "we are wasting our time here", it smacks of arrogance to me. I am not saying it was meant that way but that is how it comes across to me. It also suggests that they have all the answers and other people's contributions are not valid. I know you post links from government sites but they do not persuade me as I simply don't trust them. My whole point is that no one knows what is going to happen after Brexit but it is likely to be somewhere in between what the 'scaremongerers' say and those who say things will carry on as normal.

Also, you can make as many laws, rules and regulations as you like that will allow us to trade with/travel to/cooperate with member states of the EU but you can't legislate for the impact Brexit has had on UK society. You can't legislate for how we are seen by the rest of the world. I have a friend who has lived and worked in the UK for the past 20 years. She has just returned to Poland. Her decision wasn't taken purely as a result of Brexit but she says it did have an impact on it. I imagine I'm not the only person who knows someone who has left the UK partly because of Brexit and that makes me sad.

Edited to say: I nearly forget this as he is clearly just an odious little man but a few weeks ago I asked a man to put his dog on the lead because his dog always tries to interact with mine and we'd just had to negotiate two boisterous dogs in the park and we'd both just had enough. He refused and ended up calling me a foreign ………. (expletive). Now, obviously I don't know if that incident would have played out like that if Brexit had not happened but it seems to me that incidents like this happen more frequently since Brexit as it has given a voice to those who hold such opinions.


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> I was chatting to an English neighbour the other day (I'm in Scotland). He told me he didn't think BJ was up to the job so he was going to vote for Nigel Farage so we could finally leave.
> I thought it best to change the subject and we got on to the weather. "I need to live somewhere warm really," he said. "Where would you go?" I asked. "Spain or Portugal are the obvious choices," he replied.
> Now I'm not saying it's not going to be possible and I don't know what his reasons were for voting Leave but it seems pretty certain that he has at the very least made his life a whole lot harder!


So someone who wants to live in Spain or Portugal feels so strongly that the Eu is no good that despite that voting leave could make it harder for him, he selflessly voted leave for the good of the whole? Sounds like someone who loves Europe, but doesn't like the Eu. We've seen this on this thread before. Many Europeans from across Europe would vote to leave the Eu, regardless of their origins. Of course we don't know yet whether there will be any difference, or even if we will leave, because our government bodies and civil service have dilly-dallied so long in an attempt to prevent it.


----------



## Elles

I watched the R Kelly documentary series last night. At the end the girls claimed that he got away with the abuse because the children he abused were black girls and it wouldn’t happen if they were white girls. Welcome to Rotherham. 

Haters hate and abusers abuse. If you were overweight, slim, tall, short, wore glasses, Asian, Muslim, gay or whatever, the guy would have picked your most obvious attribute and spat it at you like an insult. It’s what bullies do. Now I’m in my 60s it’s my age. Old cow, or old biddy that kind of thing. Last one to attack me was the guy who took over a livery yard I was at. He’s older than I am. He set the muckheap on fire a few feet away from wooden stables and when I refused to get my horses in and took photos of it on my phone, he threatened and swore at me, ranting for a good ten minutes. My age was his favourite in amongst the swearing and threats “say anything about us and I know where you live” @hole, get off threatening old ladies do you?


----------



## Vicbloss

Elles said:


> So someone who wants to live in Spain or Portugal feels so strongly that the Eu is no good that despite that voting leave could make it harder for him, he selflessly voted leave for the good of the whole? Sounds like someone who loves Europe, but doesn't like the Eu. We've seen this on this thread before. Many Europeans from across Europe would vote to leave the Eu, regardless of their origins. Of course we don't know yet whether there will be any difference, or even if we will leave, because our government bodies and civil service have dilly-dallied so long in an attempt to prevent it.


I realise that you have not met my neighbour but I think, if you had, you wouldn't attribute to him that level of sensitivity.
I'm sorry that my post was not original enough for you.


----------



## Elles

Another sarcastic Remainer. No you aren’t sorry, you’re being facetious. It has been posted before that someone wanted to retire to Spain, but voted to leave the Eu. The Eu isn’t Europe.


----------



## Vicbloss

Perhaps you could write a list of suitable comments so that other posters would know before they post them?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> The Eu isn't Europe.


 Shock, horror, gulp . . . when did that happen? I cannot begin to count the number of times this has been mentioned in previous posts; not just on this Brexit thread, but all the previous Brexit threads.


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> Perhaps you could write a list of suitable comments so that other posters would know before they post them?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Another sarcastic Remainer. No you aren't sorry, you're being facetious. It has been posted before that someone wanted to retire to Spain, but voted to leave the Eu. The Eu isn't Europe.


I think you're out of order here. For some time people on both sides have shown restraint, now a personal attack on another forum member for daring to have different views.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Shock, horror, gulp . . . when did that happen? I cannot begin to count the number of times this has been mentioned in previous posts; not just on this Brexit thread, but all the previous Brexit threads.


It was a Theresa May soundbite.

Seeing the UK will soon be the only place in Western Europe that'll prohibit their citizens their FoM rights that's leaving Europe as far as I'm concerned. You can't stop the UK being in Europe geographically.

Why do people appear to support that seeing none member states such as Norway and Switzerland permit this?

The UK isn't anything special you know.

No one is saying people in future will not be allowed to live elsewhere, as long as the they apply for and be accepted for a work permit and citizenship that isn't currently required.

Unless one is very wealthy, this will exclude many older people, and I can visualise many being forced to return to the UK against their wishes.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I think you're out of order here. For some time people on both sides have shown restraint, now a personal attack on another forum member for daring to have different views.


He was being sarcastic and facetious, I know it and he knows it, I doubt either of us are taking offence.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> The UK isn't anything special you know.


I don't remember saying, or even hinting, that I thought it was 'something special''. I hope I'm not morphing into a geriatric Brexiter.


----------



## Calvine

Vicbloss said:


> Perhaps you could write a list of suitable comments so that other posters would know before they post them?


''Other posters'' don't seem to have a problem, generally speaking. As KittenKong said, the general atmosphere is mostly peaceable with people agreeing to disagree. There is one who (fortunately) posts very little who deliberately stirs things up - no names, no pack drill!.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> ''Other posters'' don't seem to have a problem, generally speaking. As KittenKong said, the general atmosphere is mostly peaceable with people agreeing to disagree. There is one who (fortunately) posts very little who deliberately stirs things up - no names, no pack drill!.


Over 15k posts, 750+ pages and that's just this, the most recent brexit thread. We will not be silenced lol.

Well, unless the mods put their foot down of course. This isn't a democracy. :Bag


----------



## Vicbloss

Elles said:


> I watched the R Kelly documentary series last night. At the end the girls claimed that he got away with the abuse because the children he abused were black girls and it wouldn't happen if they were white girls. Welcome to Rotherham.
> 
> Haters hate and abusers abuse. If you were overweight, slim, tall, short, wore glasses, Asian, Muslim, gay or whatever, the guy would have picked your most obvious attribute and spat it at you like an insult. It's what bullies do. Now I'm in my 60s it's my age. Old cow, or old biddy that kind of thing. Last one to attack me was the guy who took over a livery yard I was at. He's older than I am. He set the muckheap on fire a few feet away from wooden stables and when I refused to get my horses in and took photos of it on my phone, he threatened and swore at me, ranting for a good ten minutes. My age was his favourite in amongst the swearing and threats "say anything about us and I know where you live" @hole, get off threatening old ladies do you?


Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic now but it has been troubling me. Do you mean that, say, a black, poor, disabled, transgender woman is at no more at risk of being abused or bullied than, say, a white, heterosexual, middle-class man because abusers and bullies will always find something about an individual to target?
I may have misunderstood but that is how it reads to me.


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic now but it has been troubling me. Do you mean that, say, a black, poor, disabled, transgender woman is at no more at risk of being abused or bullied than, say, a white, heterosexual, middle-class man because abusers and bullies will always find something about an individual to target?
> I may have misunderstood but that is how it reads to me.


Sadly everyone is at risk of being bullied and aren't excluded from depression and suicide. One of the reasons people get away with it, is the idea that you can't be bullied or a bully, or that you deserve it, because of some stereotype. Of course you've chosen about the most extreme opposites you can think of for your example. A young white girl is just as likely to be abused, or groomed as young black girl and the police are more likely to take position and social status into account than race. As evidenced by young girls abused by Jimmy Saville and his paedophile friends and the young victims of the grooming gangs.

However that's a different discussion and not where I was going. I was discussing the insults, not the background. I would say that the odious little man ('little' being used as an insult ofc to which little people may take offence, if they interpret it as stature, rather than social status, or attitude) would have found anything he could to insult you. He, along with others like him, will try to cut deep. I don't believe that he would have been any different before the referendum.


----------



## Elles

Can I just say your posting style seems quite familiar. Are you an old poster on a new account?

Are we being trolled?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...m_campaign=The Scotsman - Daily RSS&utm_sourc

*Brexit: Benn Act petition dismissed by Court of Session*


----------



## Vicbloss

Elles said:


> Sadly everyone is at risk of being bullied and aren't excluded from depression and suicide. One of the reasons people get away with it, is the idea that you can't be bullied or a bully, or that you deserve it, because of some stereotype. Of course you've chosen about the most extreme opposites you can think of for your example. A young white girl is just as likely to be abused, or groomed as young black girl and the police are more likely to take position and social status into account than race. As evidenced by young girls abused by Jimmy Saville and his paedophile friends and the young victims of the grooming gangs.
> 
> However that's a different discussion and not where I was going. I was discussing the insults, not the background. I would say that the odious little man ('little' being used as an insult ofc to which little people may take offence, if they interpret it as stature, rather than social status, or attitude) would have found anything he could to insult you. He, along with others like him, will try to cut deep. I don't believe that he would have been any different before the referendum.


Thanks for replying. I don't exactly understand your reply but suffice to say we think very differently about almost everything! And that's ok.

Asking as to whether I am a troll simply because we disagree is a bit of a lazy insult if you don't mind me saying.

Edited to say: Calling someone foreign is generally classed as a hate crime. Calling someone old or little is generally not. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

It is generally accepted that the number of hate crimes has risen as a result of Brexit. https://fullfact.org/crime/hate-crime-england-and-wales/

You will have to forgive me if I am going over old ground again.


----------



## Elles

Vicbloss said:


> Thanks for replying. I don't exactly understand your reply but suffice to say we think very differently about almost everything! And that's ok.
> 
> Asking as to whether I am a troll simply because we disagree is a bit of a lazy insult if you don't mind me saying.


It wasn't an insult and has nothing to do with disagree or not. I was asking, because the ott example putting practically all 'victim' stereotypes into one person felt a bit trollish and your posting style is one I've seen before. I don't want to fall for it if it is the case and feeling that way makes me uncomfortable. Hence I asked, though haven't had a reply. I prefer to be open about this kind of thing.


----------



## Elles

I don't know that calling someone foreign is a hate crime in of itself, or the government and the Eu would be taken to task, but that's by the by. Do you think it's ok then if it's not against the law? It's ok for you to name call and insult, so long as you use words that aren't against the law yet? It's ok to discriminate, so long as you can't be held responsible in law?

https://www.theguardian.com/society...f-uk-hate-law-to-consider-misogyny-and-ageism

Hate crime reporting is also on the rise. People are more likely to understand what it is, report it and be listened to than previously. These issues have been brought to the fore probably because of Brexit blaming and of course decent people want it rooted out. That some racist @holes might feel falsely vindicated by the brexit vote is not a valid reason to vote remain imho.

There is more than one factor. Blaming Brexit is way too easy.


----------



## Elles

ETA you’re right this is old ground and we’ve been there more than once I’m sure in other brexit threads if not this one. We should focus on what’s happening currently I would think.


----------



## Vicbloss

Calling someone foreign is obviously not a hate crime. Calling someone a foreign beep is xenophobic and can be racist and is therefore a hate crime.
The rest of your questions are clearly designed to be insulting so I will not address those.
I also note that once gain, you try to tell me what I can and can't post. 
As for blaming Brexit, I am simply saying it has had an effect.
Btw, if I am a troll as you have decided, why do you keep feeding me?
As for the article you posted, good luck with getting any new laws passed but I think the Government might be a little preoccupied right now though.


----------



## Elles

Designed to be insulting? What? I’m telling you what to post? 

ok.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Seeing the UK will soon be the only place in Western Europe that'll prohibit their citizens their FoM rights that's leaving Europe as far as I'm concerned. You can't stop the UK being in Europe geographically.


We mustn't forget that East Germany and the Iron Curtain countries were at one time completely isolated from the West of Europe via the Berlin Wall.

The UK being an island is a perfect opportunity for the government to isolate us from the rest of Europe.

Should EU citizens be forced to leave through having their settled status applications refused, what would stop the authorities from allowing UK born professionals from leaving for a new life in, say Australia, (having sorted out visas, work permits etc.), as people qualified in a particular area are lacking in the UK?

They'll probably try and recruit from outside the UK, but an influx of none Christian and none white people will not go down well with the rascist types, who, "Voted them out"....


----------



## MilleD

Vicbloss said:


> The rest of your questions are clearly designed to be insulting so I will not address those.
> /


This is suspect in itself....


----------



## Vicbloss

MilleD said:


> This is suspect in itself....


Again, if you truly believe I am a troll, why keep feeding me?
And what on earth is the point of your post any way?
The answers to those particular questions needed no answer as they were simply designed to insult. That's my opinion and I have every right to hold it.


----------



## Calvine

Vicbloss said:


> It is generally accepted that the number of hate crimes has risen as a result of Brexit


But hate crime can be homophobia, or any aversion to the way a person looks or acts, or any disability they may have. It can be a hatred of the religion they follow. They do not have to be ''foreign''. Most of these are not a result of Brexit, even tho' some newspapers will use any sort of bullying as Brexit-related. It's good ''click-bait''.


----------



## Vicbloss

There is a difference between what is regarded as hate crime and what is regarded as an insult. I'm not advocating either. And I don't make the rules. I also never said a hate crime had to involve somebody being called a foreign beep.
I am sorry but you cannot say with any certainty that hate crime has not risen as a result of Brexit. Neither can we say with complete certainty that it has. There are obviously a lot of factors that affect it. But there are figures to support the idea that hate crimes have risen as a result of Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

*What on earth is happening to this thread, it's about Br-exit like it or not, not slinging mud around.*


----------



## JANICE199

Vicbloss said:


> There is a difference between what is regarded as hate crime and what is regarded as an insult. I'm not advocating either. And I don't make the rules. I also never said a hate crime had to involve somebody being called a foreign beep.
> I am sorry but you cannot say with any certainty that hate crime has not risen as a result of Brexit. Neither can we say with complete certainty that it has. There are obviously a lot of factors that affect it. But there are figures to support the idea that hate crimes have risen as a result of Brexit.


*If you wish to talk about/debate hate crime, it's a good subject for it's own thread. PLEASE keep this one on topic. Thank you.*


----------



## Calvine

Vicbloss said:


> a foreign beep.


 You are the one who keeps mentioning ''foreign beeps'' tho'! (Sorry @JANICE199, thought this needed a reply).


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> But hate crime can be homophobia, or any aversion to the way a person looks or acts, or any disability they may have. It can be a hatred of the religion they follow. They do not have to be ''foreign''. Most of these are not a result of Brexit, even tho' some newspapers will use any sort of bullying as Brexit-related. It's good ''click-bait''.


Seeing the British PM gets away with calling Musilim women, "Letterboxes" and says black people have, "Watermelon smiles", he hardly sets an example of promoting racial harmony does he.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Andrew Neil -

"Jean-Claude Juncker told France's Les Echos that any blame for a no deal Brexit would lie "in the British camp". Then he said "A Brexit without an agreement would lead to a collapse of the United Kingdom."


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> he hardly sets an example of promoting racial harmony does he.


I didn't suggest that he does; and, in case you haven't noticed, I am not secretary of his fan club.


----------



## KittenKong

A timely reminder from 2016 I think.























And I still get asked to," Respect" the referendum result......


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Hypothetically, if the UK referendum returned a vote of 100% to leave, Would we be out now? 

And, if not, why?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Hypothetically, if the UK referendum returned a vote of 100% to leave, Would we be out now?
> 
> And, if not, why?


 Well without a crystal ball it is impossible to know but had 100% of those that voted in the EU referendum ticked leave there would not the huge split in the country as we have now.

However the wrangling on how we leave, who could get a better deal, should we leave without a deal etc would probably still have been an issue and Parliament could still be arguing about it because that is what MPs do!

I think it is more likely had 100% voted leave there would have been another referendum by now on how we leave. They wouldn't have to worry about remain if 100% had voted leave.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

This afternoon I had the great pleasure of seeing how wonderful it is for Great Britain to "take back control" in celebration of Brexit.￼ 
I thought I would share my joy with you.￼
￼Having queued in the post office for an hour to be told that I had to join another queue as only one lady was trained to help me, I joined her queue to wait for 20 minutes￼￼￼. 
The charming lady told me to join a further 10 minute queue ￼for a photo machine as unlike passports it could not be a digital photo. Armed with my paper photos I rejoined a queue for another 30 minutes. 
The lady asked me which European countries I would be driving in over the next year. As I will be driving in several countries￼￼￼ I was thrilled to find that I had taken so much control back that I would need four international driving permits￼, each inscribed with details of the Convention on Road Traffic of 19th of September 1949; into which decade I definitely felt I had now lapsed￼￼￼. 
A rather scruffy piece of card was then inscribed manually with my details. My photograph was glued into it.￼￼￼ This process was repeated four times. 
Having parted with £28 for the privilege of driving in Europe, I was thrilled to find that I could take back control and repeat the whole process and make the same payment next year; subject to increase by Her Majesty's government.￼
As I left the post office I was overjoyed to see that the pound had fallen dramatically further today thus ensuring that I could feel even more ￼impoverished than previous falls in Sterling have already made me.
Nevertheless, having reverted to a period of my early childhood when travel was so much more difficult, ￼￼I will benefit from feeling ￼awfully nostalgic while I drive in poverty through Europe, with my four antediluvian ￼card passes. 
I'm really looking forward to taking back more control on 31 October.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> This afternoon I had the great pleasure of seeing how wonderful it is for Great Britain to "take back control" in celebration of Brexit.￼
> I thought I would share my joy with you.￼
> ￼Having queued in the post office for an hour to be told that I had to join another queue as only one lady was trained to help me, I joined her queue to wait for 20 minutes￼￼￼.
> The charming lady told me to join a further 10 minute queue ￼for a photo machine as unlike passports it could not be a digital photo. Armed with my paper photos I rejoined a queue for another 30 minutes.
> The lady asked me which European countries I would be driving in over the next year. As I will be driving in several countries￼￼￼ I was thrilled to find that I had taken so much control back that I would need four international driving permits￼, each inscribed with details of the Convention on Road Traffic of 19th of September 1949; into which decade I definitely felt I had now lapsed￼￼￼.
> A rather scruffy piece of card was then inscribed manually with my details. My photograph was glued into it.￼￼￼ This process was repeated four times.
> Having parted with £28 for the privilege of driving in Europe, I was thrilled to find that I could take back control and repeat the whole process and make the same payment next year; subject to increase by Her Majesty's government.￼
> As I left the post office I was overjoyed to see that the pound had fallen dramatically further today thus ensuring that I could feel even more ￼impoverished than previous falls in Sterling have already made me.
> Nevertheless, having reverted to a period of my early childhood when travel was so much more difficult, ￼￼I will benefit from feeling ￼awfully nostalgic while I drive in poverty through Europe, with my four antediluvian ￼card passes.
> I'm really looking forward to taking back more control on 31 October.
> View attachment 419030


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-international-driving-permits

*Driving in the EU after Brexit*
Check what you need to do to drive while visiting the EU if there's a no deal Brexit.

*Stay up to date*
The UK will leave the EU on 31 October. This page tells you how to prepare for Brexit. It will be updated if anything changes, including if a deal is agreed.

Sign up for email alerts to get the latest information.

*Check which type of IDP you need*
You may need one or more international driving permits (IDPs), as well as your UK driving licence to drive in an EU or EEA country.

There are 3 types of IDP:


1926 IDP
1949 IDP
1968 IDP
The type of IDP you need depends on the country you will be driving in.

You may need more than one IDP. For example, when driving through France (1968 IDP) to Andorra (1949 IDP).

*Andorra*
You will need a 1949 IDP and your UK licence.

*Austria*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Belgium*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Bulgaria*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 3 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Croatia*
You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you are:


a category D1 or D licence holder under the age of 24
a category C licence holder under the age of 21
a category C1 and B licence holder under the age of 18
*Cyprus*
You will need a 1949 IDP and your UK licence.

*Czech Republic*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 3 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Denmark*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Estonia*
You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.

*Finland*
You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

*France*
You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.

*Germany*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Greece*
You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.

*Hungary*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Iceland*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 1 month if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.

*Ireland*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.

*Italy*
You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.

*Latvia*
You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.

*Liechtenstein*
You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

*Lithuania*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Luxembourg*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Malta*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.

*Monaco*
You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.

*Netherlands*
You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

*Norway*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Poland*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.

*Portugal*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Romania*
You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.

*Slovakia*
You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

*Slovenia*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.

*Spain*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 9 months after the date the UK leaves the EU. Then you will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months, if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.

*Switzerland*
You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.

*Sweden*
You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.

You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-international-driving-permits
> 
> *Driving in the EU after Brexit*
> Check what you need to do to drive while visiting the EU if there's a no deal Brexit.
> 
> *Stay up to date*
> The UK will leave the EU on 31 October. This page tells you how to prepare for Brexit. It will be updated if anything changes, including if a deal is agreed.
> 
> Sign up for email alerts to get the latest information.
> 
> *Check which type of IDP you need*
> You may need one or more international driving permits (IDPs), as well as your UK driving licence to drive in an EU or EEA country.
> 
> There are 3 types of IDP:
> 
> 
> 1926 IDP
> 1949 IDP
> 1968 IDP
> The type of IDP you need depends on the country you will be driving in.
> 
> You may need more than one IDP. For example, when driving through France (1968 IDP) to Andorra (1949 IDP).
> 
> *Andorra*
> You will need a 1949 IDP and your UK licence.
> 
> *Austria*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Belgium*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Bulgaria*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 3 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Croatia*
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you are:
> 
> 
> a category D1 or D licence holder under the age of 24
> a category C licence holder under the age of 21
> a category C1 and B licence holder under the age of 18
> *Cyprus*
> You will need a 1949 IDP and your UK licence.
> 
> *Czech Republic*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 3 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Denmark*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Estonia*
> You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Finland*
> You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> *France*
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.
> 
> *Germany*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Greece*
> You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Hungary*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Iceland*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 1 month if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Ireland*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Italy*
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.
> 
> *Latvia*
> You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Liechtenstein*
> You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> *Lithuania*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Luxembourg*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Malta*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 12 months if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Monaco*
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence.
> 
> *Netherlands*
> You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> *Norway*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Poland*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Portugal*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Romania*
> You will not need an IDP if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence if you have a paper licence.
> 
> *Slovakia*
> You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> *Slovenia*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 90 days if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Spain*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 9 months after the date the UK leaves the EU. Then you will not need an IDP for visits up to 6 months, if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1949 IDP for longer visits.
> 
> *Switzerland*
> You will not need an IDP if you have either a UK photocard or UK paper driving licence.
> 
> *Sweden*
> You will not need an IDP for visits up to 185 days if you have a UK photocard driving licence.
> 
> You will need a 1968 IDP and your UK licence for longer visits or if you have a paper licence.


So how did that 'person' need 4 different ones? There are only 3 different types?

Perhaps they don't already have a UK licence??


----------



## Elles

He’s driving in some out of the way places to need even 3 and his post office is very busy. Fake news

Not that it matters if we need a £5 permit to drive in France and Italy and it’s no reason to stay in the Eu, it’s people spreading this stuff that has other people panicking. They should stick to the facts, not embellish and exaggerate. If they need to embellish and exaggerate, they obviously think the actual facts aren’t going to bother anyone.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> He's driving in some out of the way places to need even 3 and his post office is very busy. Fake news
> 
> Not that it matters if we need a £5 permit to drive in France and Italy and it's no reason to stay in the Eu, it's people spreading this stuff that has other people panicking. They should stick to the facts, not embellish and exaggerate. If they need to embellish and exaggerate, they obviously think the actual facts aren't going to bother anyone.


Which is why I always check anything that's posted on Facebook or Twitter because some people will believe any old rubbish!

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/travel/driving-abroad/international-driving-permits-and-brexit/

*International Driving Permits and Brexit - your questions answered about driving in the EU*

*Which IDP will I require?*

*1949 IDP*: If you are travelling to Ireland, Malta, Spain or Cyprus, you may require a 1949 IDP. The 1949 convention IDP is valid for 12 months.
*1968 IDP*: If you are travelling to all other EU states, you may require a 1968 IDP. The 1968 convention IDP is valid for three years, or for however long your driving licence is valid, if that date is earlier.
*1926 IDP*: A 1926 IDP is not required in any EU state. However, it is required it if you plan to drive in Mexico or Somalia. You may need a 1926 IDP to drive in Liechtenstein if there is no EU Exit deal


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> Which is why I always check anything that's posted on Facebook or Twitter because some people will believe any old rubbish!
> 
> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/travel/driving-abroad/international-driving-permits-and-brexit/
> 
> *International Driving Permits and Brexit - your questions answered about driving in the EU*
> 
> *Which IDP will I require?*
> 
> *1949 IDP*: If you are travelling to Ireland, Malta, Spain or Cyprus, you may require a 1949 IDP. The 1949 convention IDP is valid for 12 months.
> *1968 IDP*: If you are travelling to all other EU states, you may require a 1968 IDP. The 1968 convention IDP is valid for three years, or for however long your driving licence is valid, if that date is earlier.
> *1926 IDP*: A 1926 IDP is not required in any EU state. However, it is required it if you plan to drive in Mexico or Somalia. You may need a 1926 IDP to drive in Liechtenstein if there is no EU Exit deal


since when had mexico or somalia been in the eu?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Change of heart?

Recent polls show the will of the people is to Remain.


----------



## Elles

Bercow held a (not so) secret meeting with the Eu and agreed to prevent a no deal clean brexit.

The Eu already offered him a job. 

It’s being said that he wants to stay on as speaker until December to ensure an extension.

You have to wonder why they’re all so keen to stay in and prepared to use any means possible to do so. Except for Jo Swinson of course.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 419056
> Change of heart?
> 
> Recent polls show the will of the people is to Remain.


Like they did before the referendum eh?


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Like they did before the referendum eh?


Considering the editor of the Standard is George Osborne .................................................. nuf said?


----------



## Elles

The conservatives have a 15 point lead and the Brexit Party are the largest party in the Eu.

it also explains why remain are very keen to have a general election, or like the Lib dems a second referendum...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> The conservatives have a 15 point lead and the Brexit Party are the largest party in the Eu.
> 
> it also explains why remain are very keen to have a general election, or like the Lib dems a second referendum...


Sending Farage to be annoying there is one thing but here ?
Really?

Referendum was close, people voted for many things and against others, as nothing was specific and plethora of platitudes.

It will be honest to put now a deal ( or no deal) on the table and let people decide if they are for it and really want to risk it for no certain benefits but for a few.

Consequences of leaving Custom Union are obvious.

Consequences of leaving Single Market are imaginable.

Is there any prosperous country in Europe that voluntarily stays out of Custom Union and has no access in any form to Single Market?

How many?

Why traditionally independent Switzerland has access? Are they not scared of conscription to EU army ?


----------



## Elles

We needed a GE, but the Remainers in government won’t allow it. They don’t want another vote either. What they want is an extension and to work on staying in. They hope that forcing Boris to ask for an extension will make him unpopular and give a better chance of splitting the leave vote. At the moment Boris appears to be well in the lead, but people may defect to Farage if Boris doesn’t take us out of the Eu on the 31st. This would give Remainers the best chance, if they can’t get an interim government with no confidence, or put Bercow in charge, which some suggest.

That’s how I see it. Remainers are afraid they’ll lose, so are trying to weight the dice in their favour. 

Some Brexiteers would like to leave with no deal and negotiate with the Eu (and other countries) after we’ve left. They don’t want to shut the U.K. off from everywhere else, they want the opportunity to negotiate on their own terms and not via the Eu and with more, not fewer countries.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Sending Farage to be annoying there is one thing but here ?
> Really?
> 
> Referendum was close, people voted for many things and against others, as nothing was specific and plethora of platitudes.
> 
> It will be honest to put now a deal ( or no deal) on the table and let people decide if they are for it and really want to risk it for no certain benefits but for a few.
> 
> Consequences of leaving Custom Union are obvious.
> 
> Consequences of leaving Single Market are imaginable.
> 
> Is there any prosperous country in Europe that voluntarily stays out of Custom Union and has no access in any form to Single Market?
> 
> How many?
> 
> Why traditionally independent Switzerland has access? Are they not scared of conscription to EU army ?


Switzerland already has an army and conscription of all able bodied men who have reached maturity.

Their army is very well trained and extremely well equipped.

My son's best friend is Swiss and did his National Service, albeit many years ago, and .once they've finished are allowed to keep their equipment including their rifles.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/armed-neutrality/29289102

*Armed neutrality*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Switzerland already has an army and conscription of all able bodied men who have reached maturity.
> 
> Their army is very well trained and extremely well equipped.
> 
> My son's best friend is Swiss and did his National Service, albeit many years ago, and .once they've finished are allowed to keep their equipment including their riffles.
> 
> https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/armed-neutrality/29289102
> 
> *Armed neutrality*


But they are not worried that because they have access to Single Market that means they will be conscripted to mythical EU army?

I don't think so.

There is no reason why UK cannot stay in Single Market and Custom Union, which solves the Irish border problems and Gibraltar.

Plus we have all the deals with the whole world negotiated as much more powerful entity.

Really believe BoJo and Co will negotiate wonders?


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> But they are not worried that because they have access to Single Market that means they will be conscripted to mythical EU army?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> There is no reason why UK cannot stay in Single Market and Custom Union, which solves the Irish border problems and Gibraltar.
> 
> Plus we have all the deals with the whole world negotiated as much more powerful entity.
> 
> Really believe BoJo and Co will negotiate wonders?


I don't follow your argument. In your previous post you said, and I quote .....................

"Are they not scared of conscription to EU army ?"

which implies that the Swiss are worried about their citizens being conscripted to an EU army.

And then in your next post you contradict yourself by saying ...........................

"But they are not worried that because they have access to Single Market that means they will be conscripted to mythical EU army?

I don't think so".

Don't follow what an army has to do with the single market?

But maybe that's because I'm a bit thick:Wideyed


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Don't follow what an army has to do with the single market?
> 
> *But maybe that's because I'm a bit thick*:Wideyed


I must be as well, I have know I idea what an army it has to do with the single market or br-exit.

This thread is getting very confused


----------



## Magyarmum

https://britishineurope.org/2019/10/08/bie-and-t3m-presentation-to-afco/



https://britishineurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/AFCO-Committee_statement_08.10.19_final.pdf


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Hypothetically, if the UK referendum returned a vote of 100% to leave, Would we be out now?
> 
> And, if not, why?


 I don't think we were ever intended to leave, even with 99% or 100. We have remainers making all the decisions, new laws etc. No; I don't think we are ever going to leave.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I don't think we were ever intended to leave, even with 99% or 100. We have remainers making all the decisions, new laws etc. No; I don't think we are ever going to leave.


My son's sentiments exactly!


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> So how did that 'person' need 4 different ones? There are only 3 different types?
> 
> Perhaps they don't already have a UK licence??


Does it matter if it's one or 30?

The point is, this shouldn't be happening at all.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Does it matter if it's one or 30?
> 
> The point is, this shouldn't be happening at all.


True. I expect the Eu won't want to mess about with it either, so I'm sure once we're out and sorting out a future relationship, it'll be one of the first things to go. Bureaucrats like paperwork, but not that much.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Brexit deal can be done by October 31, Ireland says

A Brexit deal could be clinched by the end of October to allow the United Kingdom to leave the European Union in an orderly fashion, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar says after what he calls a very positive meeting with Boris Johnson.


----------



## cheekyscrip

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Brexit deal can be done by October 31, Ireland says
> 
> A Brexit deal could be clinched by the end of October to allow the United Kingdom to leave the European Union in an orderly fashion, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar says after what he calls a very positive meeting with Boris Johnson.


Trick or Treaty?


----------



## samuelsmiles3

cheekyscrip said:


> Trick or Treaty?


I'm not sure. I haven't heard discussions regarding Brexit called "positive" in 3 years.

Very odd.


----------



## KittenKong

Disgusting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50003563?SThisFB









So much for what people were promised in 2016. I could see through the lies at the time.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> Disgusting
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50003563?SThisFB
> View attachment 419217
> 
> 
> So much for what people were promised in 2016. I could see through the lies at the time.
> 
> View attachment 419225


We do need to get things organised if we are actually going to leave the EU, so getting the required paperwork in place is necessary. Any foreign national that is happy here, and does want to stay, still has over one year to get this paperwork in. And, even if they haven't done this by December 2020 they will be granted an extension. I'm not sure why this is "disgusting"?

_The Home Office said 1.8 million people had applied to the scheme and others have until "at least" December 2020.

It said those with "reasonable grounds" for missing the date would be granted an extension to apply for the right to live and work in the UK._


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Disgusting
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50003563?SThisFB
> View attachment 419217
> 
> We had this same rubbish before from you. Please go and look at the rules now and tell me what's different?
> 
> So much for what people were promised in 2016. I could see through the lies at the time.
> 
> View attachment 419225


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> We do need to get things organised if we are actually going to leave the EU, so getting the required paperwork in place is necessary. Any foreign national that is happy here, and does want to stay, still has over one year to get this paperwork in. And, even if they haven't done this by December 2020 they will be granted an extension. I'm not sure why this is "disgusting"?
> 
> _The Home Office said 1.8 million people had applied to the scheme and others have until "at least" December 2020.
> 
> It said those with "reasonable grounds" for missing the date would be granted an extension to apply for the right to live and work in the UK._


At least it's more time than some EU countries are giving UK citizens, most of whom have to establish residency within 3 months of the UK exiting the EU in order to avoid being deported!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Disgusting
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50003563?SThisFB
> View attachment 419217
> 
> 
> So much for what people were promised in 2016. I could see through the lies at the time.
> 
> View attachment 419225


 From what I can see, it's nigh on impossible to deport mass murderers, let alone law-abiding EU citizens from this country. I think they are safe, truly I do!

//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/


----------



## Calvine

samuelsmiles3 said:


> We do need to get things organised if we are actually going to leave the EU, so getting the required paperwork in place is necessary. Any foreign national that is happy here, and does want to stay, still has over one year to get this paperwork in. And, even if they haven't done this by December 2020 they will be granted an extension. I'm not sure why this is "disgusting"?
> 
> _The Home Office said 1.8 million people had applied to the scheme and others have until "at least" December 2020.
> 
> It said those with "reasonable grounds" for missing the date would be granted an extension to apply for the right to live and work in the UK._


 I keep seeing and hearing adverts saying, ''Get ready for Brexit'' and then they imply that October 31st is when it all kicks off . . .


----------



## Magyarmum

This is what happens when you accept everything posted on Facebook as fact...................

https://www.facebook.com/TheStudent...6206161839715/784620618664935/?type=3&theater

https://fullfact.org/online/supreme-court-no-EU-stipend/

*That claim you've seen about Supreme Court judges getting paid £175,000 by the EU is totally made up*


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> We do need to get things organised if we are actually going to leave the EU, so getting the required paperwork in place is necessary. Any foreign national that is happy here, and does want to stay, still has over one year to get this paperwork in. And, even if they haven't done this by December 2020 they will be granted an extension. I'm not sure why this is "disgusting"?
> 
> _The Home Office said 1.8 million people had applied to the scheme and others have until "at least" December 2020.
> 
> It said those with "reasonable grounds" for missing the date would be granted an extension to apply for the right to live and work in the UK._


I'm disgusted to find anyone could condone this quite frankly.

Many have lived in the UK for longer than the UK has been a member of the Common Market who've lived, worked and paid taxes.

This is no way to thank them.



Calvine said:


> From what I can see, it's nigh on impossible to deport mass murderers, let alone law-abiding EU citizens from this country. I think they are safe, truly I do!
> 
> //www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/


So, only people from the EU are murderers, rapists and violent criminals?

This reminds me of a photo gallery showing all "None white" faces I think might have been, again in the very pro Brexit Telegraph, convicted of these hideous crimes.

Plenty of "White British" people are convicted of these crimes too.

It's wrong for the papers to stir up this sort of xenophobia and hatred towards EU citizens and "None white" people.

There's good and bad regardless of gender, skin colour and country of origin, whatever your papers tell you.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> So, only people from the EU are murderers, rapists and violent criminals?


FFS, I give up. You never read any posts through; like never. And I did say _''law abiding EU citizens''._ Did you not spot that? Did you suss out what it meant?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/5000-foreign-criminals-not-deported-2376536.html
 Here's the Independent; maybe more to your liking than the _Telegraph_.


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> FFS, I give up. You never read any posts through; like never. And I did say _''law abiding EU citizens''._ Did you not spot that? Did you suss out what it meant?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/5000-foreign-criminals-not-deported-2376536.html
> Here's the Independent; maybe more to your liking than the _Telegraph_.


I don't give a s**t where the source comes from. This article, which is certainly dated seeing it mentions Theresa May as HS, is no better.

Many of the criminals in question aren't even from the EU.

Isn't it about time the government took some responsibility rather than blame others for their failings for failing to deport these people?

The thing is, articles like this do give the impression that most crime is committed by "None British" people which only escalates xenophobia.

This kind of scaremongering worked in Germany in the 1930s.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 419253
> 
> 
> I don't give a s**t where the source comes from.
> 
> Many of the criminals in question aren't even from the EU.
> 
> Isn't it about time the government took some responsibilities rather than blame others for their failings for failing to deport these people?
> 
> The thing is, articles like this do give the impression that most crime is committed by "None British" people which only escalates xenophobia.
> 
> This kind of scaremongering worked in Germany in the 1930s.


In that case Switzerland must be getting like Germany in the 1930's

https://www.thelocal.ch/20190625/seven-out-of-ten-foreigners-convicted-of-swiss-crimes-deported

*Seven out of ten foreign criminals deported from Switzerland*

https://www.dw.com/en/things-to-know-about-deportations-in-germany/a-39119049

*Things to know about deportations in Germany*

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/criminals-spain-british-murder-drug-16985338

*Lags on tour: Meet the criminals that could be sitting round pool of YOUR Spanish hotel*


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 419253
> 
> 
> I don't give a s**t where the source comes from.
> 
> Many of the criminals in question aren't even from the EU.
> 
> Isn't it about time the government took some responsibilities rather than blame others for their failings for failing to deport these people?
> 
> The thing is, articles like this do give the impression that most crime is committed by "None British" people which only escalates xenophobia.
> 
> This kind of scaremongering worked in Germany in the 1930s.


You on that merry go round again 
First 1930 Germany
The comes Hitler:Banghead
You're like a stuck record
Obviously, you have no actual grasp on reality
All you can do is spin the same old arguments
Real name Pete Burns by any chance?


----------



## Guest

I see today that the European Union and United Kingdom are now in what is called the tunnel (the tunnel is the stage when intense negotiations take place). There seems to be that there has been a break through with yesterdays talks with the Irish Prime Minister and United Kingdom Prime Minister.

_I apologise personally for my outburst the other day about this thread._


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> This kind of scaremongering worked in Germany in the 1930s.


Here we go again


----------



## Guest

I think alot of credible information has been supplied on this thread recently which seems to get dismissed by some of those that voted remain on here.

The only "scaremongering" that seems to be taking place is the stuff that has been repeated by some of those that voted remain on this thread, do you have anything new to contribute? I can tell you one piece of new news the European Union and United Kingdom are now locked in intense negotiations after yesterdays meeting between the Irish Prime Minister and United Kingdom Prime Minister. Something positive must have been discussed that the European Union believes it can work with to get a deal with the United Kingdom.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> I think alot of credible information has been supplied on this thread recently which seems to get dismissed by some of those that voted remain on here.
> 
> The only "scaremongering" that seems to be taking place is the stuff that has been repeated by some of those that voted remain on this thread, do you have anything new to contribute? I can tell you one piece of new news the European Union and United Kingdom are now locked in intense negotiations after yesterdays meeting between the Irish Prime Minister and United Kingdom Prime Minister. Something positive must have been discussed that the European Union believes it can work with to get a deal with the United Kingdom.


Lets hope they can sort something out but I'm not holding my breath. I wish you'd stop having a go that us remainers.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> I think alot of credible information has been supplied on this thread recently which seems to get dismissed by some of those that voted remain on here.
> 
> The only "scaremongering" that seems to be taking place is the stuff that has been repeated by some of those that voted remain on this thread, do you have anything new to contribute? I can tell you one piece of new news the European Union and United Kingdom are now locked in intense negotiations after yesterdays meeting between the Irish Prime Minister and United Kingdom Prime Minister. Something positive must have been discussed that the European Union believes it can work with to get a deal with the United Kingdom.


Here we go again. It's a clever distraction, or haven't you noticed, over the pole dancer scandal.

If you are right, what will stop the no deal fanatics from calling him a, "Traitor" as they did with Theresa May when she negotiated a deal?

They were wrong to have trusted him. He's a natural born liar, whichever side you're on.


----------



## KittenKong

Another Brexit gift....

https://www.thelocal.de/20191011/br...mit-costs-up-to-150-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Another Brexit gift....
> 
> https://www.thelocal.de/20191011/br...mit-costs-up-to-150-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit
> 
> View attachment 419287
> [/QUO


Almost exactly the same as now then?

Some even pay more now


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Almost exactly the same as now then?
> 
> Some even pay more now


I took that to mean they'll be charged for something they used to have of right.

A residency permit wouldn't have been required until now.


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> You on that merry go round again
> First 1930 Germany
> The comes Hitler:Banghead
> You're like a stuck record
> Obviously, you have no actual grasp on reality
> All you can do is spin the same old arguments
> Real name Pete Burns by any chance?


If you haven't already watched it, I strongly advise you watch the BBC series on the rise of the Nazis and how a democratic country like Germany could become a dictatorship in four short years. The similarities are frightengly similar to what is happening in the UK now.

MPs receiving posts like this is certainly working towards this, and how the masses are manipulated by jingoistic nationalist nonsense.

Since when have the EU and their supporters been deemed, "The Enemy"???


----------



## KittenKong

Not his real account of course, but the video is genuine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155808844024602624


----------



## KittenKong

Excellent article, from a Brexiter. Sensible examples do exist after all.

While I would obviously disagree with him over leaving the EU, he is spot on about how this government has handled it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-a9152036.html


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wish you'd stop having a go that us remainers.


Sure thing when some remain voters on here stop comparing the United Kingdom or the European Union for that fact to Nazi Germany in the 1930's. It's like you guys are stuck in the past and not the here and now.

Present some real facts instead of newspaper clippings.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Here we go again. It's a clever distraction, or haven't you noticed, over the pole dancer scandal.
> 
> If you are right, what will stop the no deal fanatics from calling him a, "Traitor" as they did with Theresa May when she negotiated a deal?
> 
> They were wrong to have trusted him. He's a natural born liar, whichever side you're on.


You said a while back you could not wait to get rid of the former Prime Minister Theresa May and you didn't care who they replaced her with as long as they got rid of her. Well you got Boris Johnson. You aren't happy with him. Well make up your mind (yes I have been reading through the thread by the way).

Boris Johnson is delivering on the referendum result of 2016 and you don't like that. It was what was voted for, that was to leave the European Union.

What Boris Johnson done in his personal life before when he was Mayor of London or before that is nobodies buisness. Why sling mud at him for what he previously done? Nothing has been proven either so yes if is mud slinging.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Not his real account of course, but the video is genuine.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155808844024602624
> View attachment 419306


Wasn't it promised in the 2016 referendum that the United Kingdom would leave the single market and customs union? Didn't the remain campaign even mention leaving both in there leaflet (again I have read through this thread with great interest with what people have said)?


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> If you haven't already watched it, I strongly advise you watch the BBC series on the rise of the Nazis and how a democratic country like Germany could become a dictatorship in four short years. The similarities are frightengly similar to what is happening in the UK now.




Why do you keep bringing Nazi Germany up and dictatorships? The United Kingdom is not in a dictatorship it is Governed by one of the oldest democracies in the world and the United Kingdom Parliament would not allow a dictatorship to rule the United Kingdom.


----------



## Guest

I am finding some of the arguements presented by some remainers repetitive because they only repeat what has already been discussed can you not find something new to argue about?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Another Brexit gift....
> 
> https://www.thelocal.de/20191011/br...mit-costs-up-to-150-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit
> 
> View attachment 419287


https://www.expatrio.com/living-germany/visa-germany/german-permanent-residence-permit

*German Permanent Residence Permit*
.
*How much is a German residence permit?*
The standard fee for a Permanent Residence Permit is €135. For self-employed people, it is €200.


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong

Like in any other country in Europe you have to pay to get a residence permit to stay there temporarily or permanently after being in the country you are in after 90 days. Germany is no exception. They aren't free you know the residence permits.

The country you are residing in is allowed to put the costs up for a residence permit as well.

It's nothing new having to pay for a residence permit to remain in the country you choose to reside in, in Europe.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> I took that to mean they'll be charged for something they used to have of right.
> 
> A residency permit wouldn't have been required until now.


Do you never fact check what you post?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Since when have the EU and their supporters been deemed, "The Enemy"???
> View attachment 419305


There are extremes on both sides that are not taken seriously by the vast majority.
You are an extreme remainer


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> @KittenKong
> 
> Like in any other country in Europe you have to pay to get a residence permit to stay there temporarily or permanently after being in the country you are in after 90 days. Germany is no exception. They aren't free you know the residence permits.
> 
> The country you are residing in is allowed to put the costs up for a residence permit as well.
> 
> It's nothing new having to pay for a residence permit to remain in the country you choose to reside in, in Europe.


I moved to Hungary in August 2007 and in order to stay there for more than 90 days I had to have a permanent residence permit which if I remember correctly cost around £10. I also needed a permanent residence permit in order to purchase an Hungarian registered car.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Do you never fact check what you post?


Pity the many who voted leave didn't fact check beyond the Daily Mail etc., though recognise not everyone was influenced by the campaigns in much the same way I was solidly pro EU before the referendum.

But, like in General Elections it's the floating voters that always decide. Usually the result their papers want.



rona said:


> There are extremes on both sides that are not taken seriously by the vast majority.
> You are an extreme remainer


That's a bit extreme, if you pardon the pun.

I've certainly never threatened anyone with violence or death through my passionate pro EU beliefs which, if anything, have become stronger in recent times. I never will do and accept the masses need to find out for themselves what they believe they voted for. I can imagine some very irate people indeed.

I would say I'm a passionate Remainer rather than extreme!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Spain decided to up border queues to test Brexit.

Once it is all about Irish border we no idea how it work out here...

Meanwhile our shops put food prices up to incredible heights.

I have to get the medication, check ups and tests for my dog and my cat in Spain.
Even my goldfish needs filters from pet shop there.

I can’t cross the frontier this weekend.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> the rise of the Nazis


Here we go again: you are totally obsessed. Why don't you just start a Nazi thread (or a Nazi forum)?


----------



## Elles

Adrian Yalland along with Remainers took the government to court over leaving the single market. He’s considered an eccentric. He obviously didn’t read the leaflet his party posted through every door in Britain. He’s another MP who thinks his opinion is more important than anyone else’s. Boris is trying to get a deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> If you haven't already watched it, I strongly advise you watch the BBC series on the rise of the Nazis and how a democratic country like Germany could become a dictatorship in four short years. The similarities are frightengly similar to what is happening in the UK now.
> 
> MPs receiving posts like this is certainly working towards this, and how the masses are manipulated by jingoistic nationalist nonsense.
> 
> Since when have the EU and their supporters been deemed, "The Enemy"???
> View attachment 419305


I suggest you read these articles and get educated.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/02/05/how-dictators-come-to-power-in-a-democracy/

*How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy*

https://www.thedailybeast.com/could-the-third-reich-happen-here

*Could the Third Reich Happen Here?*

And perhaps you didn't know that Hitler, his henchmen and much of the German military fought the war high on drugs????????????????????

Now Boris and the British Government might be many things but I doubt they're all high on crystal meths

https://allthatsinteresting.com/theodor-morell

*Dr. Theodor Morell And The Untold Truth About Hitler's Drug Habit*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I suggest you read these articles and get educated.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/02/05/how-dictators-come-to-power-in-a-democracy/
> 
> *How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy*
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/could-the-third-reich-happen-here
> 
> *Could the Third Reich Happen Here?*
> 
> And perhaps you didn't know that Hitler, his henchmen and much of the German military fought the war high on drugs????????????????????
> 
> Now Boris and the British Government might be many things but I doubt they're all high on crystal meths
> 
> https://allthatsinteresting.com/theodor-morell
> 
> *Dr. Theodor Morell And The Untold Truth About Hitler's Drug Habit*


 I read the same exactly about kamikaze pilots; all stoned before they killed themselves.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I read the same exactly about kamikaze pilots; all stoned before they killed themselves.


You might like to read this article about how throughout history, drugs have been used in war time. (I'm a military history fanatic, particularly WW1 and WW2)

One of the reasons given as to how the German army made such rapid progress early in the war was because the drugs they were given enabled them to go without sleep for days and allow them to push forward without resting!

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2018/05/08/combat-high-a-sobering-history-of-drug-use-in-wartime/

*Combat High - How Armies Throughout History Used Drugs to Make Soldiers Fight*


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Sure thing when some remain voters on here stop comparing the United Kingdom or the European Union for that fact to Nazi Germany in the 1930's.* It's like you guys are stuck in the past and not the here and now.*
> 
> Present some real facts instead of newspaper clippings.


*How dare you say that about me, I voted remain but I respect the result, I don't have to like it do I.*

*I would have liked another peoples vote as things have changed so much over the last 3 years, but that's not going to happen.*


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> If you haven't already watched it, I strongly advise you watch the BBC series on the rise of the Nazis and how a democratic country like Germany could become a dictatorship in four short years. *The similarities are frightengly similar to what is happening in the UK now.*


No, just no. If anything parliament (elected representatives) wanting control of proceedings, courts getting involved, etc is the polar opposite of going towards a dictatorship.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Calvine said:


> Here we go again: you are totally obsessed. Why don't you just start a Nazi thread (or a Nazi forum)?


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> No, just no. If anything parliament (elected representatives) wanting control of proceedings, courts getting involved, etc is the polar opposite of going towards a dictatorship.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Magyarmum said:


> I suggest you read these articles and get educated.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/02/05/how-dictators-come-to-power-in-a-democracy/
> 
> *How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy*
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/could-the-third-reich-happen-here
> 
> *Could the Third Reich Happen Here?*
> 
> And perhaps you didn't know that Hitler, his henchmen and much of the German military fought the war high on drugs????????????????????
> 
> Now Boris and the British Government might be many things but I doubt they're all high on crystal meths
> 
> https://allthatsinteresting.com/theodor-morell
> 
> *Dr. Theodor Morell And The Untold Truth About Hitler's Drug Habit*





Magyarmum said:


> You might like to read this article about how throughout history, drugs have been used in war time. (I'm a military history fanatic, particularly WW1 and WW2)
> 
> One of the reasons given as to how the German army made such rapid progress early in the war was because the drugs they were given enabled them to go without sleep for days and allow them to push forward without resting!
> 
> https://militaryhistorynow.com/2018/05/08/combat-high-a-sobering-history-of-drug-use-in-wartime/
> 
> *Combat High - How Armies Throughout History Used Drugs to Make Soldiers Fight*


Interesting article about Gail Bradbrook, co founder of Extinction Rebellion.

Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic drug ingestion


----------



## mrs phas




----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> You said a while back you could not wait to get rid of the former Prime Minister Theresa May and you didn't care who they replaced her with as long as they got rid of her. Well you got Boris Johnson. You aren't happy with him. Well make up your mind (yes I have been reading through the thread by the way).





saartje said:


> Wasn't it promised in the 2016 referendum that the United Kingdom would leave the single market and customs union? Didn't the remain campaign even mention leaving both in there leaflet (again I have read through this thread with great interest with what people have said)?


Really, you have read 15110 posts spread over 700+ pages. Wow that is obsessive for someone who claimed just a few weeks ago not to be following any Brexit news!


----------



## Magyarmum

https://unherd.com/2019/10/will-bre...inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

*Will Brexit leave us dining on rat poo?*
*It is becoming increasingly difficult to tease out the realistic EU stories from the crazy*


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> *How dare you say that about me, I voted remain but I respect the result, I don't have to like it do I.*
> 
> *I would have liked another peoples vote as things have changed so much over the last 3 years, but that's not going to happen.*


Do you compare Britain to nazi Germany, or post newspaper clippings?

I don't, so although I too voted remain, I don't think the post was aimed at me.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065513767, member: 1291226"*]Do you compare Britain to nazi Germany, or post newspaper clippings?NO*

I don't, so although I too voted remain, I don't think the post was aimed at me.[/QUOTE]

*I'd vote remain again as well.*


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> No, just no. If anything parliament (elected representatives) wanting control of proceedings, courts getting involved, etc is the polar opposite of going towards a dictatorship.


Well, as far as I can see, stuaz may not post very often, but when he does, he is remarkably sensible.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> [QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065513767, member: 1291226"*]Do you compare Britain to nazi Germany, or post newspaper clippings?NO*
> 
> I don't, so although I too voted remain, I don't think the post was aimed at me.


*I'd vote remain again as well.*[/QUOTE]

I just wondered why you thought the post was aimed at you, when I don't remember ever seeing you compare Britain to nazis or post newspaper clippings


----------



## samuelsmiles3

If anyone is concerned about drug availability when (if) Brexit happens, it is worth investigating a little. I have chronic eczema and mild asthma and have found that Glaxo Smith Klein manufacture and distribute the 2 drugs I use.

This is what they say.

Our approach to Brexit

Delivering these necessary but complex changes will be ambitious and potentially disruptive in the short term and we support efforts to secure a status quo transition period to minimise disruption. *Over the longer term, we continue to believe that Brexit will not have a material impact on our business.*


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> If anyone is concerned about drug availability when (if) Brexit happens, it is worth investigating a little. I have chronic eczema and mild asthma and have found that Glaxo Smith Klein manufacture and distribute the 2 drugs I use.
> 
> This is what they say.
> 
> Our approach to Brexit
> 
> Delivering these necessary but complex changes will be ambitious and potentially disruptive in the short term and we support efforts to secure a status quo transition period to minimise disruption. *Over the longer term, we continue to believe that Brexit will not have a material impact on our business.*


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50019045

*UK pays £87m for no-deal Brexit ferry contracts*

The government has awarded £86.6m of contracts to ferry companies to transport medicines in the event of a no-deal Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> If anyone is concerned about drug availability when (if) Brexit happens, it is worth investigating a little. I have chronic eczema and mild asthma and have found that Glaxo Smith Klein manufacture and distribute the 2 drugs I use.
> 
> This is what they say.
> 
> Our approach to Brexit
> 
> Delivering these necessary but complex changes will be ambitious and potentially disruptive in the short term and we support efforts to secure a status quo transition period to minimise disruption. *Over the longer term, we continue to believe that Brexit will not have a material impact on our business.*


So any disruptions, temporary or otherwise, are worthwhile which you are suggesting?

Need I remind you this is not a time of war or a national crisis.

This is very much *self inflicted and completely avoidable.*


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> No, just no. If anything parliament (elected representatives) wanting control of proceedings, courts getting involved, etc is the polar opposite of going towards a dictatorship.


I agree upto a point, but seeing the hatred directed at those who have held up democracy, never forget those judges for being named and shamed as the _Enemies of the people _by the Daily Mail. Many activists have been threatened with their lives, notably Gina Miller.

The attempt is to silence others by such threats.

Referring to the BBC TV documentary in question they are remarkable similarities before Hitler gained eventual supreme power.

The documentary even shocked me to tell you the truth at how similar things are to the UK today.

At the time, no one could foresee what was happening in Germany. If we are not careful and adopt a similar attitude it could well happen again, not necessarily in the UK, but anywhere in the world.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I suggest you read these articles and get educated.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/02/05/how-dictators-come-to-power-in-a-democracy/
> 
> *How Dictators Come To Power In A Democracy*
> 
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/could-the-third-reich-happen-here
> 
> *Could the Third Reich Happen Here?*
> 
> And perhaps you didn't know that Hitler, his henchmen and much of the German military fought the war high on drugs????????????????????
> 
> Now Boris and the British Government might be many things but I doubt they're all high on crystal meths
> 
> https://allthatsinteresting.com/theodor-morell
> 
> *Dr. Theodor Morell And The Untold Truth About Hitler's Drug Habit*


Dellusional, which is what I would expect but I'll leave it there....


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Dellusional, which is what I would expect but I'll leave it there....


delusional
/dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce
_adjective_
adjective: *delusional*

characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
"hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"
based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.
"their delusional belief in the project's merits never wavers"

Why delusional? Or is it just because the article contradicts your version of reality?

Unfortunately for you, the events leading up to the rise of Hitler are too well documented for there to be any doubt

Another article for you to read which confirms the opinions expressed in the first one I posted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/opinion/03iht-edkershaw.1.9700744.html.

*How democracy produced a monster*

And if You're referring to me being delusional, I think not. My late partner was German and a few years older than me. I know from him what it was like to live in Germany during the war. Not pleasant I can assure you!


----------



## KittenKong

Well I never. So much for the attitude that the UK as a whole must respect the decision of the English.

Interesting how some England fans were waving Butcher's apron's in Prague, as seen on the news yesterday. Glad they lost to the Czech Republic.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> I agree upto a point, but seeing the hatred directed at those who have held up democracy, never forget those judges for being named and shamed as the _Enemies of the people _by the Daily Mail. Many activists have been threatened with their lives, notably Gina Miller.
> 
> The attempt is to silence others by such threats.
> 
> Referring to the BBC TV documentary in question they are remarkable similarities before Hitler gained eventual supreme power.
> 
> The documentary even shocked me to tell you the truth at how similar things are to the UK today.
> 
> At the time, no one could foresee what was happening in Germany. If we are not careful and adopt a similar attitude it could well happen again, not necessarily in the UK, but anywhere in the world.


I watched the Rise of the Nazis series on BBC2 and found it spellbinding. Have to admit, not for one second did it remind me of anything happening with Brexit today.

I'll probably watch it again so maybe I'll see something I didn't see the first time.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I watched the Rise of the Nazis series on BBC2 and found it spellbinding. Have to admit, not for one second did it remind me of anything happening with Brexit today.
> 
> I'll probably watch it again so maybe I'll see something I didn't see the first time.


I agree with you about the BB2 series.

I recently saw "Apocolypse" The rise of Hitler, a six episode mini series made by France2 TV and saw nothing reminiscent of present day UK,(or France), in it.

I'm now watching a mini series again by France2 about the life of Stalin and the role of Russia in WW2.

I'll let you know if I find anything suspicious


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I watched the Rise of the Nazis series on BBC2 and found it spellbinding. Have to admit, not for one second did it remind me of anything happening with Brexit today.
> 
> I'll probably watch it again so maybe I'll see something I didn't see the first time.


Lawyer takes government to court= Gina Miller today.
Judges called, "Enemies of the people"= Daily Mial in recent times.

Media brainwashing, declaring minority groups as enemies= attitude towards none British persons, Muslim faith, the EU and Remainers....

Attempts at shutting up opponents through fear, calling non believers "traitors"....

Prorougation of parliament. I can go on and on.....


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Twitter:


----------



## KittenKong

Getting ready for Brexit:


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...2r9xTLWWZYCO8P06au0_PnJ0G-PPP5uicgaFWeABOcqDk


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook. Interesting:

I live in Norway - which is as you all know a country in the EEA but not in the EU. I just wanted to share a few of the things I noticed living in a country outside of the EU and that maybe not everybody considers when thinking of Brexit and what it might be like after the UK has left the EU.
1) If I order anything (e.g. from Amazon, Ebay) which is delivered from a EU country and that is more expensive than 350kr (£40) I pay a customs duty plus VAT. (see example below)
2) If my mum sends a parcel to me from Germany there is a huge amount of paperwork involved that proves what is in the parcel and the charges are €30.99 (up to 5kg). Compared to €17.99 if she would send it to a EU country like France.
3) To study in Norway ( not just do an Erasmus exchange) is more difficult and requires you to apply for a student residence permit. (update: you are no longer required to prove your financial status as a EEA/EU citizen, that must have changed recently)
4) Ebay, Amazon and all the big supermarket chains (Lidl, Aldi etc) do not exist here. Although this might have to do with the small Norwegian market.
5) To get hold of European products is often a) difficult and b) very costly due to the additional customs charges and postage costs. Many products simply do not exist in Norway so one either has to order them or buy them when you are travelling.
6) Eastern European workers are needed and very common in the building, hospitality and agricultural industry. Given that a plumber charges £60 / hour Norway is a popular destination. But, Norway also seems to know and appreciate that many workers from those countries do an amazing job, have the right skills and are just generally nice, hard working people.


----------



## Elles

Gibraltar isn’t in the customs union, there are often queues on a Saturday, the border is clear atm, we haven’t left yet.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Boris is trying to get a deal.


:HilariousLol.

Think it could be about causing a distraction to this from a couple of weeks ago....


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Gibraltar isn't in the customs union, there are often queues on a Saturday, the border is clear atm, we haven't left yet.


No, the UK hasn't. Other countries like France are getting prepared though, having orchestrated similar exercises in preparation for Brexit.

If anything, they're more prepared than the UK are.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Hitler





KittenKong said:


> This kind of scaremongering worked in Germany in the 1930s.


Let's all talk about the war again; why not?


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> Let's all talk about the war again; why not?


??? That was before the war!


----------



## KittenKong

Another erosion of democracy


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Another erosion of democracy
> View attachment 419465


It is already mandatory to have photographic ID to vote in Northern Ireland. Why not roll it out across the rest of the United Kingdom? It helps cut down on voting fraud.

Here in the Netherlands Dutch Citizens have to show photographic ID when voting and Dutch Citizens have to have a form of photographic ID from the age of 14. It's a complusory requirement here to carry a form of photographic ID all the time (like a national ID card, passport or driving license).

You might want to read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Another erosion of democracy
> View attachment 419465












He's at it again ..... scaremongering!

You have to produce your ID to vote in Hungary.

Boris has sweet FA to do with it, The Electoral Commission recommended ID's to help to prevent voter fraud in 2014.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-25641801

*Voters 'should be required to show photo ID at elections', says watchdog*

*The elections watchdog said it planned to introduce the change in time for the 2019 local government and European Parliament elections.*


----------



## Elles

It has nothing to do with Brexit and if you don’t have a driving licence or passport, you will be able to apply for a photo ID for voting, for free.

Anyway seeing as only the stupid, uneducated and uninformed who don’t travel a lot, vote for brexit, Remainers should be pleased. It’s brexiteers who won’t have passports, or be able to drive. I’m sure applying for id will be well beyond their ability. I’m surprised they managed to vote at all. They probably didn’t, but got the extreme right to proxy vote on their behalf. That’s being stomped on too.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> It has nothing to do with Brexit and if you don't have a driving licence or passport, you will be able to apply for a photo ID for voting, for free.


That's why I don't understand the reluctance for everyone to have ID card, it would save a lot of messing around.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It has nothing to do with Brexit and if you don't have a driving licence or passport, you will be able to apply for a photo ID for voting, for free.
> 
> Anyway seeing as only the stupid, uneducated and uninformed who don't travel a lot, vote for brexit, Remainers should be pleased. It's brexiteers who won't have passports, or be able to drive. I'm sure applying for id will be well beyond their ability. I'm surprised they managed to vote at all. They probably didn't, but got the extreme right to proxy vote on their behalf. That's being stomped on too.


Technically you are right, but isn't it funny how they were up in arms when the last Labour government proposed compulsory ID cards.

That would have ensured everyone could have voted, including the 18+m who were unable to vote in the 2016 'referendum'...


----------



## Elles

There are lots of different ‘they’s. Some theys wanted ID cards to make it all easier.


----------



## Guest

National ID cards work very well in various countries around the world. National ID Cards help prove who someone is, can be used in Europe to travel from country to country without having to carry a passport and can be used as a form of Identification. I don't understand why the United Kingdom refuses to introduce National Identity cards. Why are people so resistant to having them in the United Kingdom?


----------



## Elles

https://www.ft.com/content/2ec95b9a-4709-11e8-8c77-ff51caedcde6

Not sure if you can read this, I can't always read ft links.

The gist of it is that people are afraid of their becoming compulsory and making it difficult for people in need if there's a mistake, or they lose theirs for example.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> https://www.ft.com/content/2ec95b9a-4709-11e8-8c77-ff51caedcde6
> 
> Not sure if you can read this, I can't always read ft links.
> 
> The gist of it is that people are afraid of their becoming compulsory and making it difficult for people in need if there's a mistake, or they lose theirs for example.


Unfortunately it's behind a paywall!


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Lawyer takes government to court= Gina Miller today.
> Judges called, "Enemies of the people"= Daily Mial in recent times.
> 
> Media brainwashing, declaring minority groups as enemies= attitude towards none British persons, Muslim faith, the EU and Remainers....
> 
> Attempts at shutting up opponents through fear, calling non believers "traitors"....
> 
> Prorougation of parliament. I can go on and on.....


*Taken from Nazi Germany Timeline*

1929 - 1930 Great Depression - The world depression saw many Germans face unemployment and poverty. Support for the Nazi party increased dramatically.

During 1930 Hitler Youth junior branches established - Deutsches Jungvolk for boys aged 10 - 14 years and the Bund Deutscher Mädel (League of German Girls) for girls aged 10 - 18 years.

July 1932 The Nazi party gained 37.4% of the vote in the Reichstag elections to become the largest party.

30th January 1933 Hitler appointed Chancellor of Germany by President Hindenburg

3rd February 1933 Hitler defined the Nazi party foreign policy. The prime goal was to secure lebensraum (living space) for the German master race.

27th February 1933 The Reichstag Fire. A fire which broke out at the Reichstag building was blamed on the Communist Party (KPD). As a result the KPD, which was the second largest party in Germany, was banned. The banning of theCommunist party gave the Nazis a clear majority in government

5th March 1933 With the Communist party banned Hitler ordered a new election at which the Nazi party gained 44% of the General election vote.

23rd March 1933 Enabling Act gave Hitler power to make laws without consulting the Reichstag for a period of four years

26th April 1933 The Gestapo, Nazi secret police, were formed

26th April 1933 The Nazis took over local government

2nd May 1933 Trade Unions were banned

10th May 1933 25,000 'un-German' books burned in an "Action against the Un-German Spirit". The move was encouraged by Joseph Goebbels, Head of Propaganda.

14th July 1933 All political parties except the Nazis were banned

October 1933 Germany withdrew from the League of Nations

30th June 1934 The Night of the Long Knives - 150 leaders of the Stormtroopers SA were executed. Many members of the SA were committed socialists and demanded that Nazi policy embrace socialist aims. This was not a direction the Nazis wished to follow so the SA were eliminated.

2nd August 1934 President Hindenburg died. Hitler combined the post of President and Chancellor and called himself Fuhrer.

26th February 1935 Hitler ordered Hermann Goering to establish the Luftwaffe, German airforce, in defiance of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles

March 1935 Hitler publicly announced that the German Army was to be expanded. Conscription was introduced.

15th September 1935 Nuremburg Laws defined German citizenship. Relationships between Jews and Aryans were banned.

7th March 1936 Re-occupation of the Rhineland. In contravention of the terms of the Versailles Treaty, Hitler sent German troops to re-occupy the Rhineland.

I could go on ..............................


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Unfortunately it's behind a paywall!


i thought it might be. I haven't looked at the ft for months, so I expect I got a freebie.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> i thought it might be. I haven't looked at the ft for months, so I expect I got a freebie.


I think you get a free trial either for a month or so many articles and after that you're supposed to pay!


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...RfuymNhyYCnJOny4GbToJhMFYw#Echobox=1571036187


----------



## Magyarmum

https://europestreet.news/could-brits-benefit-from-a-new-eu-long-term-residence-directive/

*Could British citizens benefit from a new EU long-term residence directive?*


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> National ID cards work very well in various countries around the world. National ID Cards help prove who someone is, can be used in Europe to travel from country to country without having to carry a passport and can be used as a form of Identification. I don't understand why the United Kingdom refuses to introduce National Identity cards. *Why are people so resistant to having them in the United Kingdom?*


Because some people even some on here, say it's against their civil rights having to proof who they are, unless they have something to hide why not?


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://europestreet.news/could-brits-benefit-from-a-new-eu-long-term-residence-directive/
> 
> *Could British citizens benefit from a new EU long-term residence directive?*


That depends whether the UK government would allow for this. Many don't realise this yet but FoM is not restricted to EU citizens, "Jumping the queue", to enter the UK.

I can't see this happening unless the UK government drops it's commitment to becoming the only Western European nation to prohibit FoM.

Of course a future moderate government could agree to that though if leaving the EU becomes an unpopular move, like the Poll Tax was when implemented.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Because some people even some on here, say it's against their civil rights having to proof who they are, unless they have something to hide why not?


I support it personally speaking as it works for other EU countries. In addition, with Schengen and FoM this doubles as a passport.

Until very soon, citizens from other EU countries could enter the UK through producing their ID card with no expense needed for a passport. UK citizens were forced into the expense of passports thanks to this government's Schengen opt out.

It won't matter for much longer anyway, now they are saying you'll need photo ID for the right to vote, let alone for travel into a neighbouring country.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> That depends whether the UK government would allow for this. Many don't realise this yet but FoM is not restricted to EU citizens, "Jumping the queue", to enter the UK.
> 
> I can't see this happening unless the UK government drops it's commitment to becoming the only Western European nation to prohibit FoM.
> 
> Of course a future moderate government could agree to that though if leaving the EU becomes an unpopular move, like the Poll Tax was when implemented.


Had you read the article thoroughly you would have noticed it says this and I quote .............

*"The UK, Ireland and Denmark had opted out from the directive, which applies to anyone, irrespective of whether similar provisions are reciprocated in the country of origin*".

In other words what the UK does will have no bearing on the EU's decision.

(Ah well I suppose the Poll Tax makes a change from Hitler and the Nazis)


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> ?? That was before the war!


 I thought it started in 1939 (ie the 1930's). 1939-1945 rings a bell with me, though I never studied history to any great level.


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are watching The Parliament Channel at the moment and Ian Blackburn SNP is replaying to the Queens Speech and BJ has just got up and walked out. How rude is this man, he should be there to answer him.


----------



## Britt

Deal or no deal, Great Britain is going to suffer 
I didn't like Mrs May but I'm starting to think that BoJo's plan is worse.


----------



## Elles

Blackford wants a vote of no confidence and to cancel brexit. Boris probably thought it was a good time to go to the loo.


----------



## KittenKong

"Nothing will change, we'll be able to live and work in places like Spain, just as we do now", they told me.

Meanwhile, in Spain.


----------



## KittenKong

:Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> "Nothing will change, we'll be able to live and work in places like Spain, just as we do now", they told me.
> 
> Meanwhile, in Spain.
> 
> View attachment 419587


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ign-secretary-to-uk-nationals-living-in-spain

*Open letter from the Foreign Secretary to UK nationals living in Spain*


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ign-secretary-to-uk-nationals-living-in-spain
> 
> *Open letter from the Foreign Secretary to UK nationals living in Spain*


But each country will have its own rules, and it also depends how this government behave towards Spanish nationals living in the UK, or have you forgotten that?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> But each country will have its own rules, and it also depends how this government behave towards Spanish nationals living in the UK, or have you forgotten that?


No.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/r...an-spain-no-deal-brexit-residency-healthcare/

*Royal Decree Contingency Plan Spain No Deal Brexit- Residency & Healthcare*

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/23/inenglish/1569214269_989612.html

*Spain will remove rights for British residents post-Brexit if the UK does not reciprocate*


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> Sure thing when some remain voters on here stop comparing the United Kingdom or the European Union for that fact to Nazi Germany in the 1930's. It's like you guys are stuck in the past and not the here and now.
> 
> Present some real facts instead of newspaper clippings.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 419714


There are detention camps in other European countries. They are not illegal.









https://www.euractiv.com/section/gl...-camps-as-places-of-detention-and-deterrence/

Other countries lock migrants up in detention centers with bars on the windows. Call them what you want but the United Nations refer to them as places of detention and deterrence.

Still is not 1930's. Other countries in Europe use detention centers and detention camps.

If you can be bothered:










and there is this as well:- https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/13572/under-lock-and-key-asylum-seekers-in-detention



> Hungary is not alone among EU countries in its approach to detaining migrants who arrive irregularly. Twelve member states detain significant numbers of asylum seekers entering their territory, either at the border or in airport transit zones, according to Marie Walter-Franke, a Jacques Delors Institute Policy Fellow and a specialist on EU migration and asylum policy. The 12 countries are: Belgium, Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, Slovenia, Spain and the UK.


The United Kingdom is doing nothing different than what some other European countries do.

Try researching your answers before posting twitter or facebook posts.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 419714


You really should check your facts as it would save you posting things out of context!

The comment about internment camps refers to the EU having broken it's promise of a safe passage for 50 000 refugees!

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-breaks-promise-of-safe-passage-for-50000-refugees/a-50803664

*EU breaks promise of safe passage for 50,000 refugees*

And what do you propose to do about this if and when Turkey carries out it's threat and refugees come flooding into the UK? Offer them free board and lodging at the Savoy or Hilton?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/tur...-refugees-to-europe-over-syria-criticism.html
*
Turkey's Erdogan threatens to release millions of refugees into Europe over criticism of Syria offensive*


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong it took me less than 2 minutes to find all the facts to reply to your post this morning. Honestly researching is easy.


----------



## Guest

Quoted from one of the above links in post 15187


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's why I don't understand the reluctance for everyone to have ID card, it would save a lot of messing around.


 Me too: I've never understood why people don't want ID cards - I have nothing to hide, so it wouldn't worry me one bit.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Blackford wants a vote of no confidence and to cancel brexit. Boris probably thought it was a good time to go to the loo.


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

From Facebook:

It appears that the politicians cannot find a solution to the NI problem. 
This is why...
Map 1. 
The existing situation - the UK is a member of the EU.
Map 2. 
A hard Brexit - The UK leaves the EU with no agreement.
This will go against the Good Friday Agreement, and risks restarting the troubles. From the government's own figures, this will also cause the most damage to the economy.
Map 3. 
The Johnson government suggested that the Republic of Ireland should leave the EU and join the UK. This was quickly dismissed as ludicrous by both the Republic and the rest of the EU.
Map 4. 
Northern Ireland could leave the UK and become part of the Republic. To comply with the Good Friday Agreement, this would require the consensus of the peoples of both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It is unlikely to be agreed by the UK, as it would rapidly result in Scotland also leaving the UK.
Map 5.
Northern Ireland could become an independent country. 
This again would require the consent of both NI and the Republic to comply with the GFA, and like the last option, would also need to be agreed by the UK. There would also be the issue that the province's governing body is dysfunctional, and NI would still need to decide whether to be part of the UK or the EU's customs union. It doesn't solve the problem.
Map 6.
The UK could revoke Article 50.
This would be simple, be the most economically advantageous, and it will work. The only obstacle to this solution is the minority government in Westminster.


----------



## KittenKong

I agree, but it's funny those Tory politicians who were up in arms about it when the last Labour government proposed it are moving towards the idea themselves....


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Me too: I've never understood why people don't want ID cards - I have nothing to hide, so it wouldn't worry me one bit.


I have nothing to hide but I hate carrying anything with me and I won't even have a store card, I just see them as tracking devices. I would really object to ID cards


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I have nothing to hide but I hate carrying anything with me and I won't even have a store card, I just see them as tracking devices. *I would really object to ID cards*


I really don't understand why! Do you carry a driving licence, if so what is the difference.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> I have nothing to hide but I hate carrying anything with me and I won't even have a store card, I just see them as tracking devices. I would really object to ID cards


If you have a mobile phone (of any kind), store cards are the least of your worries 

Not that I'd really want ID cards either, mind. There's too much paperwork already...


----------



## Guest

My national ID card sits in my wallet like my bank card does and any other card I have. No real problem here having one.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> If you have a mobile phone (of any kind), store cards are the least of your worries
> 
> Not that I'd really want ID cards either, mind. There's too much paperwork already...


You don't even have to have a mobile phone,you only need to walk round any UK town. It's been (amend that to I've known) known for years that the UK has more information about its citizen than most countries in the world.

An article dated 2006

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533054/Britain-the-most-spied-on-nation-in-the-world.html

*Britain: the most spied on nation in the world*

And another dated 2016 .....

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23...ance-laws-explained-investigatory-powers-bill

*THE UK NOW WIELDS UNPRECEDENTED SURVEILLANCE POWERS - HERE'S WHAT IT MEANS*

*







*


----------



## Guest

Mr Johnson has indicated he will write to the European Union Council on Saturday for an extension if there is still no deal available. This will please some on here and annoy others.


----------



## Magyarmum

In my email box this morning from one of the institutions I subscribe to.

An interesting perspective from the European Journal of International Law

https://www.ejiltalk.org/could-international-law-stop-a-no-deal-brexit/

*Could International Law Stop a No-Deal Brexit?*


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> You don't even have to have a mobile phone,you only need to walk round any UK town. It's been (amend that to I've known) known for years that the UK has more information about its citizen than most countries in the world.
> 
> An article dated 2006
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533054/Britain-the-most-spied-on-nation-in-the-world.html
> 
> *Britain: the most spied on nation in the world*
> 
> And another dated 2016 .....
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23...ance-laws-explained-investigatory-powers-bill
> 
> *THE UK NOW WIELDS UNPRECEDENTED SURVEILLANCE POWERS - HERE'S WHAT IT MEANS*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


There was an incident a couple of years ago near me which involved this "family man" who killed his wife in there home. He was suspected of the murder but police couldn't prove it at first. Until they realised he owned a small old car which he kept in storage. Once they knew that they found the vehicle on the road the night she disappeared and tracked it using cameras to the place he had buried the body.

He used back roads, single track roads, dirt roads, doubled back on himself, basically went to great lengths to hide his route. The place the body was found was in the middle of absolutely nowhere and the nearest track wasn't even a named road....

What shocked a lot of locals was the amount of surveillance even in extreme remote places....and it made locals realise that even in the countryside your not far away from cameras....


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Not that I'd really want ID cards either, mind.


 I can't say I would especially ''want'' one, but the thought of having one would not bother me in the least - unless they tried to charge us massive amounts for the privilege!


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> There was an incident a couple of years ago near me which involved this "family man" who killed his wife in there home. He was suspected of the murder but police couldn't prove it at first. Until they realised he owned a small old car which he kept in storage. Once they knew that they found the vehicle on the road the night she disappeared and tracked it using cameras to the place he had buried the body.
> 
> He used back roads, single track roads, dirt roads, doubled back on himself, basically went to great lengths to hide his route. The place the body was found was in the middle of absolutely nowhere and the nearest track wasn't even a named road....
> 
> What shocked a lot of locals was the amount of surveillance even in extreme remote places....and it made locals realise that even in the countryside your not far away from cameras....


 Many years ago I did read that every day the ''average'' person is on camera about 70 times (so God knows how many times a day we are seen now). I was flabbergasted.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Many years ago I did read that every day the ''average'' person is on camera about 70 times (so God knows how many times a day we are seen now). I was flabbergasted.


Actually it's nearer to 300 times a day for the average Briton and probably more as this article is from 2004

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...caught-on-camera-300-times-a-day-5354728.html

*How average Briton is caught on camera 300 times a day*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Actually it's nearer to 300 times a day for the average Briton and probably more as this article is from 2004
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...caught-on-camera-300-times-a-day-5354728.html
> 
> *How average Briton is caught on camera 300 times a day*


Not at all surprised.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I really don't understand why! Do you carry a driving licence, if so what is the difference.


I do not. It's at home. If I can 
Leave ID card at home it would be fine but I thought they are to be carried at all times or you get a fine.
Surely our passports are as good as ID cards if we won't have to carry it all the time


----------



## Jonescat

It's a privacy thing. The law is that we only have to share personal information when it is necessary and there are legal grounds to do so, but a mandatory ID card changes the relationship to one where others have a right to your personal information on demand - no oversight at point of demand, no justification of the reason why, no idea what will be done with your information. 

With regard to the car number plates for the crime above, there was a crime, so legal grounds to look at the cameras. There would not be justification to look at them just to see who was around,and what their name was, on a rainy afternoon in Swindon, which is essentially what an ID card check is.


----------



## KittenKong

More sunlit uplands...


----------



## samuelsmiles3

KittenKong said:


> More sunlit uplands...
> 
> View attachment 419774


I can't find anything alarming according to the London Assay Office and can't find who 'wrote' the message on Twitter?

Can you help with little more information please, Kittenkong.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I can't find anything alarming according to the London Assay Office and can't find who 'wrote' the message on Twitter?
> 
> Can you help with little more information please, Kittenkong.


Don't ya know the bloke wot wrote on Twitter or maybe Facebook is someone called A. Nony Mouse


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> More sunlit uplands...
> 
> View attachment 419774


Perhaps you should look more deeply into the Twitter/Facebook comments you post instead of accepting them as gospel.

The fluctuation in the gold and silver prices is only partially due to the uncertainty of Brexit but other factors also play a major part.

https://www.fxstreet.com/analysis/g...brexit-deal-mean-for-gold-prices-201910151815

*Gold Price Forecast - What Would A Brexit Deal Mean For Gold Prices?*

And an article about the Assay mark after Brexit which is not as dire as the writer makes out.

https://www.assayofficelondon.co.uk...ation-to-hallmarking-requirements-post-brexit

*Life After Brexit - Advice for UK jewellery importers and exporters in relation to Hallmarking requirements post-Brexit*


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I can't find anything alarming according to the London Assay Office and can't find who 'wrote' the message on Twitter?
> 
> Can you help with little more information please, Kittenkong.


Well, unless you are in the trade you probably won't find it alarming if it doesn't affect you.

It was seen on the FB page "Remaining In The EU is best for Britain". The name of the poster was concealed for confidentiality purposes, hence why partially chopped.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I do not. It's at home. If I can
> Leave ID card at home it would be fine but I thought they are to be carried at all times or you get a fine.
> Surely our passports are as good as ID cards if we won't have to carry it all the time


I don't think they ever meant us to carry the all the time, we are not in a police state, it's when you go somewhere we need to proof who you are but I don't a problem in just carrying it in my purse. I don't have a passport any more and I have never driven a car so I don't have a licence.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think they ever meant us to carry the all the time, we are not in a police state, it's when you go somewhere we need to proof who you are but I don't a problem in just carrying it in my purse. I don't have a passport any more and I have never driven a car so I don't have a licence.


I dont know whether you would have to carry them all the time. I dont know if things have changed but in France back in the 80s you had to carry them with you and show them to the police if you were asked. My French boyfriend then , he had darker skin than the rest of us and he was always getting stopped , police were racist then.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I dont know whether you would have to carry them all the time. I dont know if things have changed but in France back in the 80s you had to carry them with you and show them to the police if you were asked. My French boyfriend then , he had darker skin than the rest of us and he was always getting stopped , police were racist then.


Many still are unfortunately as I know from my own experience!

In Hungary you have to carry your ID, NHI card and driving license with you at all times. As the highway I drive along to and from the city is the main road from Slovakia, Poland and the Ukraine there are often road blocks where the police check all your papers against their computer records. The only time you're normally asked to show your ID though is for "official" purposes such as renewing your driving license of having your car MOT'd.


----------



## Magyarmum

We've finally done it! We've got a deal!

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-...gn=EU+and+UK+say+they+have+Brexit+deal&utm_so

*EU and UK say they have Brexit deal*


----------



## Guest

Deal Done at last.


















Now over to the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Now over to the United Kingdom Parliament.


Am I the only one cynical enough to think that BoJo has just ensured he will get the No Deal Bexit he wants?


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Am I the only one cynical enough to think that BoJo has just ensured he will get the No Deal Bexit he wants?


https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-eu-summit-oct-17-dle-intl-gbr/index.html

*UK opposition parties reject Johnson's deal*


----------



## Elles

Don’t forget the Eu had a say in this and in May’s deal. This is what they want too. It’s not Boris’ deal any more than the other was May’s deal. They are both the Eu’s agreement for withdrawal. 

Of course MPs who don’t want to leave at all will vote it down. Half a dozen of them, including Lucas and Lammy have just been to Brussels to ask the Eu for more time so they can make us stay in. Bercow did the same. With 3/4 of MPs being Remainers, there always was little chance of getting a deal through, unless the only other option is no deal. They’re still hoping the Benn Dover bill will prevent that.


----------



## Guest

Attached is the revised deal


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Don't forget the Eu had a say in this and in May's deal. This is what they want too. It's not Boris' deal any more than the other was May's deal. They are both the Eu's agreement for withdrawal.
> 
> Of course MPs who don't want to leave at all will vote it down. Half a dozen of them, including Lucas and Lammy have just been to Brussels to ask the Eu for more time so they can make us stay in. Bercow did the same. With 3/4 of MPs being Remainers, there always was little chance of getting a deal through, unless the only other option is no deal. They're still hoping the Benn Dover bill will prevent that.


The European Union would have always had the upper hand in any deal and the majority of the say because they have to look after the interests of the remaining 27 countries.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Actually it's nearer to 300 times a day for the average Briton and probably more as this article is from 2004
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...caught-on-camera-300-times-a-day-5354728.html
> 
> *How average Briton is caught on camera 300 times a day*


Wow, all those missed opportunities to strike a pose....


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Attached is the revised deal


I couldn't get your link to work, but I think this goes to it

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pub...ding-protocol-ireland-and-northern-ireland_en

We need a TL;DR option.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Wow, all those missed opportunities to strike a pose....


You mean like PF members taking their dogs for a walk?


----------



## lullabydream

MilleD said:


> Wow, all those missed opportunities to strike a pose....


Should be a dog owner.. I used to air sweep none existing poo as my old dog used to try and squeeze every last drip out and do nothing at all... Don't bother now as the CCTV there isn't on anymore due to council cuts... I still pick up obviously but many don't on something they class as part of tourism of my town. Such a shame really.. Plus the people who were employed in a building monitoring CCTV.. Yep you guessed it council cuts they aren't there now either.... So unless something happens in town centre, pretty stuffed to some degree. 
Not sure about crime figures per se, but crime figures don't go on what we're prevented by sending out police or alerting people... So it's not as cut and dry.


----------



## Guest

Junker has just said "there will be no prolongation" refering to a possible extension request from the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Junker has just said "there will be no prolongation" refering to a possible extension request from the United Kingdom Parliament.


https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...w-eu-withdrawal-agreement-leaders-vote-816169

*Brexit deal: Jean-Claude Juncker says new agreement means no need for 'prolongation' - but EU leaders will have final say*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...w-eu-withdrawal-agreement-leaders-vote-816169
> 
> *Brexit deal: Jean-Claude Juncker says new agreement means no need for 'prolongation' - but EU leaders will have final say*


There is a big question mark over if the remaining 27 countries will accept a further extension from the United Kingdom Parliament. Alot of work has gone on behind the scenes to secure this latest deal and the European Union cannot keep extending the United Kingdom leaving the European Union with no reason. The European Union have other work to do besides Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The remaining 27 countries have approved the deal, now it's up to Westminster to agree, I'm not holding my breath


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws2 said:


> The remaining 27 countries have approved the deal, now it's up to Westminster to agree, I'm not holding my breath


Well the DUP don't seem to like it which leaves the ERG in a bit of a pickle because they have said in the past they would be guided by them. I think the vote will be very close.


----------



## mrs phas

so because i am a bear of very little brain
can someone, *knowledgeable and sensible ,* tell me just what happens now if boris' compromise is voted down and EU refuse to prolong the exit any further
do we just do
no deal on 31st
revoke article 50
take a proper referendum, rather than an indicatory one, like the last one
have a general election
chuck the whole lot in the air and see what lands face up
pretend the last three years have been spent in the shower/a dream, and just carry on as we are

just what??


----------



## Elles

If they vote down Boris’ deal and there’s no extension, we leave with no withdrawal deal on October 31st (and sign a free trade deal on November 1st).


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> (and sign a free trade deal on November 1st).


With whom?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> With whom?


the Eu.

The deal is only a withdrawal deal anyway. The real negotiations will happen after we leave.

I put it in brackets, because it's my opinion on it.  The current reality is they agree to Boris' deal, or we leave on the 31st without a withdrawal deal, unless the Eu agree to an extension.

That's today though. There's all kinds of shenanigans in the courts as Remainers bring fast tracked court cases. So tomorrow is another day.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

mrs phas said:


> so because i am a bear of very little brain
> can someone, *knowledgeable and sensible ,* tell me just what happens now if boris' compromise is voted down and EU refuse to prolong the exit any further
> do we just do
> no deal on 31st
> revoke article 50
> take a proper referendum, rather than an indicatory one, like the last one
> have a general election
> chuck the whole lot in the air and see what lands face up
> pretend the last three years have been spent in the shower/a dream, and just carry on as we are
> 
> just what??


There will be a GE in the very near future whatever happens, the government won't be able to limp on for much longer. 
If the Brexit deal is voted down I suspect an extension will be granted in order to hold a GE but there is no guarantee a GE will help matters.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> There is a big question mark over if the remaining 27 countries will accept a further extension from the United Kingdom Parliament. Alot of work has gone on behind the scenes to secure this latest deal and the European Union cannot keep extending the United Kingdom leaving the European Union with no reason. The European Union have other work to do besides Brexit.


Not really, as 99% of the deal is what had already been agreed with Theresa May last December, only Johnson has made another concession.

The EU rightly rejected Johnson's two borders plan, yet he agreed to the EU's earlier suggestion to have a sea border between the mainland and Northern Ireland, something Theresa May rejected as something no PM would accept.

This either means two things: 1).
Johnson being so desperate for a deal thus succumbing to the original EU proposal that his predecessor rejected or 2). Accepting the break up of the UK that will result in this and b*****KS to the DUP as the media will ensure his GE landslide anyway.

This is something very rushed and not well thought of, even if it's taken 3 years.

Just as I would expect from a bunch of incompetent idiots who believe they're born to govern.

Farage and the DUP are not happy.

I wonder if Theresa May will vote in favour of it...

This is the reality:


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 419859



The United Kingdom is remaining in the Paris agreement and has said it will make it's environmental standards better than the European Union.
You seem to have missed sonething there, Johnson told Trump that the NHS is not ip for negotiation didn't he recently?
Chlorinated Chicken - Didn't Johnson say or Gove that the United Kingdom would not lower it's food standards and accept Chlorinated Chicken.
That's not true that the right to work, live and retire will end you can do this in any country around the world, you need a visa to do this and to abide to that countries rules.

People that are posting this stuff on twitter and facebook etc really do not have a clue as they probably have not lived or worked or retired in another country in Europe or anywhere else and you are taking their word for it. Try asking those that have been through the process of living and working or retiring in another European country and you will see it isn't as straight forward as you think it is or dream of it being.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> The United Kingdom is remaining in the Paris agreement and has said it will make it's environmental standards better than the European Union.
> You seem to have missed sonething there, Johnson told Trump that the NHS is not ip for negotiation didn't he recently?
> Chlorinated Chicken - Didn't Johnson say or Gove that the United Kingdom would not lower it's food standards and accept Chlorinated Chicken.
> That's not true that the right to work, live and retire will end you can do this in any country around the world, you need a visa to do this and to abide to that countries rules.
> 
> People that are posting this stuff on twitter and facebook etc really do not have a clue as they probably have not lived or worked or retired in another country in Europe or anywhere else and you are taking their word for it. Try asking those that have been through the process of living and working or retiring in another European country and you will see it isn't as straight forward as you think it is or dream of it being.


You really are disillusioned aren't you, then you are lucky not to live in this impending fascist dictatorship and will still have your rights to FoM, soon to exclude the UK of course. Yes, you'll be able to visit the UK, but you'll need a passport, but you'll lose your automatic right to live and work there. Same for me across 30 other countries as the drawbridge lifts up. Happy Christmas eh ?

Trust a word Johnson says especially about the NHS and Trump?

Best keep you on ignore before I say something I regret.

Edited to remove swearing and profanity.


----------



## KittenKong

Seen on Facebook:

Today Boris Johnson stole your EHIC cards.
In 2017 my son hit a wall on a bike in the South of France suffering multiple fractures requiring emergency surgery.
"Where are your insurance papers?" asked the hospital. We produced his EHIC card and he was sent to surgery and ten days later he was, in plaster, on a plane back to university in Frankfurt (yes, he benefitted from Erasmus too).
The Greek surgeon treating him in Digne Les Bains, Provence, told us, "when you leave the EU and you lose that card you'll be writing a €20,000 cheque for that treatment or I'd be waiting for for an insurance company to give me the go ahead. What has your country done?"
He was treated in a poor French town in his own impeccable room with ensuite. One of over 100 at that state hospital - no wards.
Britain will never recover from the shame of Brexit.


----------



## Guest

Your attitude really stinks doesn't it.

It is you that is confused, disillusioned and believing everything as gospel what you are being told on social media. You are the one who keeps comparing the United Kingdom with the 1930's, wars and its Government with dictatorships not me.

How dare you speak to me like this.

The United Kingdom leaving the European Union affects my family you know.
I have many times in a calm and polite manner corrected you and proven you wrong with the things you post by posting factual evidence to prove this.
I am not disillusioned at all, I look at facts and what is really happening not what people are saying on other social media platforms.
The European Union has currently (including the United Kingdom) 28 member countries soon to be 27 not 30 as you claim.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Not really, as 99% of the deal is what had already been agreed with Theresa May last December, only Johnson has made another concession.
> 
> The EU rightly rejected Johnson's two borders plan, yet he agreed to the EU's earlier suggestion to have a sea border between the mainland and Northern Ireland, something Theresa May rejected as something no PM would accept.
> 
> This either means two things: 1).
> Johnson being so desperate for a deal thus succumbing to the original EU proposal that his predecessor rejected or 2). Accepting the break up of the UK that will result in this and b*****KS to the DUP as the media will ensure his GE landslide anyway.
> 
> This is something very rushed and not well thought of, even if it's taken 3 years.
> 
> Just as I would expect from a bunch of incompetent idiots who believe they're born to govern.
> 
> Farage and the DUP are not happy.
> 
> I wonder if Theresa May will vote in favour of it...


Taken the words right out of my mouth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50079317


----------



## Guest

@KittenKong. Enough is enough.

I found your post rude and out of order.
You're showing that you are not an open minded person at all infact the opposite, closed minded.
I have been extremely calm and polite and not taken offence to anything you have posted until now.
You come across aggressive and hostile to me and I do not like that at all.
I thought you had already put me on ignore because you ignore any facts that are posted and ramble on with what people are saying on other social media platforms without researching the facts to later having what you have posted proven to be wrong.
You fail to realise that my family maybe affected by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union as well.
I do not expect a reply from you at all as you have put me on ignore.

I will leave things there I think.


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> You really are disillusioned aren't you, then you are lucky not to live in this impending fascist dictatorship and will still have your rights to FoM, soon to exclude the UK of course. Yes, you'll be able to visit the UK, but you'll need a passport, but you'll lose your automatic right to live and work there. Same for me across 30 other countries as the drawbridge lifts up.
> 
> Best keep you on ignore before I say something I regret.


Since when could you visit the UK without a passport??


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You really are disillusioned aren't you, then you are lucky not to live in this impending fascist dictatorship and will still have your rights to FoM, soon to exclude the UK of course. Yes, you'll be able to visit the UK, but you'll need a passport, but you'll lose your automatic right to live and work there. Same for me across 30 other countries as the drawbridge lifts up.
> 
> Best keep you on ignore before I say something I regret.


Oh the irony of this post and hypocrisy of the poster.:Arghh

This is a man who describes the UK as an impending Fascist dictatorship

Edited to remove swearing and profanity from quote.

Yet he completely forgets or is unaware that the country he wants to retire to was until 1975 ruled by a Fascist Dictator.

More recently Vox has become the first far right wing party to gain seats in a regional parliament in a post Franco Spain but apparently that's no problem for him

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...do-popular-coalition-ciudadanos-a8731501.html

*'Spain has turned a corner': Four decades of socialist rule come to an end in Andalucia*

Seemingly, neither is the hefty sentences handed out to the Catalan leaders for sedition and the riots that have followed

Obviously of little importance so long as you have a plentiful supply of sun, sangria and karaoke

https://www.thelocal.es/20191014/top-spain-court-to-rule-on-catalan-separatist-leaders-fate

*GUILTY: Catalan leaders handed jail terms for sedition over failed independence bid*


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Since when could you visit the UK without a passport??


Citizens from within the EEA could enter the UK using their ID cards with no need for an additional passport.


----------



## KittenKong

*Liar!*


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> the Eu.
> 
> The deal is only a withdrawal deal anyway. The real negotiations will happen after we leave.
> 
> I put it in brackets, because it's my opinion on it.


Well yes, the withdrawal deal is supposed to bridge the gap between leaving and negotiating an actual deal in order to protect the econoy of the leavly country until a proper deal is negotiated - which, based on how long other countries take to negotiate these unless they are staring down the barrel of a figurative or literal gun, is likely to take several years. I certainly can't see the EU being in any rush to conduct negotiations, as all the time pressure will be on our side and the longer they hold out, the more concessions they will get from us.

And maybe try IMHO - brackets classically denote an aside or clarification, not an opinion


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Well yes, the withdrawal deal is supposed to bridge the gap between leaving and negotiating an actual deal in order to protect the econoy of the leavly country until a proper deal is negotiated - which, based on how long other countries take to negotiate these unless they are staring down the barrel of a figurative or literal gun, is likely to take several years. I certainly can't see the EU being in any rush to conduct negotiations, as all the time pressure will be on our side and the longer they hold out, the more concessions they will get from us.
> 
> And maybe try IMHO - brackets classically denote an aside or clarification, not an opinion


https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/eu-brexit-deal-business-reaction-17103398

*EU Brexit deal business reaction - relief but still 'serious concerns' over what it will mean for trade*


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/eu-brexit-deal-business-reaction-17103398
> 
> *EU Brexit deal business reaction - relief but still 'serious concerns' over what it will mean for trade*


That's assuming it gets through Parliament, though. I suspect BoJo is trying to force MPs to comply with the threat of a No Deal on the 31st if they don't, but given that (as I understand it) he;s got nothing more than May did but made more concessions, he's lacking a lot of support.

Either way, UK business has a shedload of uncertainty going on. We had No Deal precautionary instructions sent round at work, and it makes for some pretty scary reading in places.


----------



## kimthecat

So does Boris really want this deal to go through ? Corbyn is saying they wont vote for it . So who is sabotaging who? 
Boris nor the Tories will be in charge for ever , they may not even win the next election.

perhaps all the Uk "facists " will move to Bulgaria if they don't like the deal . They'll feel right at home there .

Bulgarian football supporters.


----------



## Guest

I would like to apologise if I was in the wrong in my replies to a certain member this morning after this member decided to use swear words towards me and be completely uncivil. I do keep my posts rational, civil and polite as I believe in internet etiquette as this is a public forum and used by children as well I do believe. What wound me up was the personal attack on me which I highlighted in bold.

I hope I did not fail being level headed, civil and being polite in my responses and I hope I have not breached any internet etiquette or forum rules it is just this member wound me up the wrong way and perhaps I should have said what I said in private to this member via private messaging?

Sorry for taking this thread off topic with this post but ai felt I needed to say this.


----------



## SusieRainbow

saartje said:


> I would like to apologise if I was in the wrong in my replies to a certain member this morning after this member decided to use swear words towards me and be completely uncivil. I do keep my posts rational, civil and polite as I believe in internet etiquette as this is a public forum and used by children as well I do believe. What wound me up was the personal attack on me which I highlighted in bold.
> 
> I hope I did not fail being level headed, civil and being polite in my responses and I hope I have not breached any internet etiquette or forum rules it is just this member wound me up the wrong way and perhaps I should have said what I said in private to this member via private messaging?
> 
> Sorry for taking this thread off topic with this post but ai felt I needed to say this.


I haven't really followed this thread, just kept a bit of an eye on it, but can't say I've seen anything untoward in your comments. 
It's preferable to keep these discussions in the open , once personal messaging gets used it seems to get , well, more personal.


----------



## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:
> 
> Today Boris Johnson stole your EHIC cards.
> In 2017 my son hit a wall on a bike in the South of France suffering multiple fractures requiring emergency surgery.
> "Where are your insurance papers?" asked the hospital. We produced his EHIC card and he was sent to surgery and ten days later he was, in plaster, on a plane back to university in Frankfurt (yes, he benefitted from Erasmus too).
> The Greek surgeon treating him in Digne Les Bains, Provence, told us, "when you leave the EU and you lose that card you'll be writing a €20,000 cheque for that treatment or I'd be waiting for for an insurance company to give me the go ahead. What has your country done?"
> He was treated in a poor French town in his own impeccable room with ensuite. One of over 100 at that state hospital - no wards.
> Britain will never recover from the shame of Brexit.


Cos everything on fb is true
Isn't it?


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Well yes, the withdrawal deal is supposed to bridge the gap between leaving and negotiating an actual deal in order to protect the econoy of the leavly country until a proper deal is negotiated - which, based on how long other countries take to negotiate these unless they are staring down the barrel of a figurative or literal gun, is likely to take several years. I certainly can't see the EU being in any rush to conduct negotiations, as all the time pressure will be on our side and the longer they hold out, the more concessions they will get from us.
> 
> And maybe try IMHO - brackets classically denote an aside or clarification, not an opinion


not just my opinion though, I should probably have made it clearer. It's being said in a lot of quarters that a free trade deal is ready to be put forward and signed in the event of no deal.


----------



## Guest

Yesterday didn't Mr Johnson say that if the withdrawal agreement is passed and the United Kingdom leaves on the 31st October on the 1st November he will start discussions with the European Union about future relationship and free trade deal? I am sure the European Council also acknowledged this as well yesterday (if the European Council didn't then I apologise and will stand corrected).


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Yesterday didn't Mr Johnson say that if the withdrawal agreement is passed and the United Kingdom leaves on the 31st October on the 1st November he will start discussions with the European Union about future relationship and free trade deal? I am sure the European Council also acknowledged this as well yesterday (if the European Council didn't then I apologise and will stand corrected).


Well of course they will start talks regarding trade deals, that is the whole point of trying to get a WA to allow a transient period while those talks take place, but they will START talks, they will not be done and dusted by the very next day!


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I would like to apologise if I was in the wrong in my replies to a certain member this morning after this member decided to use swear words towards me and be completely uncivil. I do keep my posts rational, civil and polite as I believe in internet etiquette as this is a public forum and used by children as well I do believe. What wound me up was the personal attack on me which I highlighted in bold.
> 
> I hope I did not fail being level headed, civil and being polite in my responses and I hope I have not breached any internet etiquette or forum rules it is just this member wound me up the wrong way and perhaps I should have said what I said in private to this member via private messaging?
> 
> Sorry for taking this thread off topic with this post but ai felt I needed to say this.


You really don't have to apologise. IMHO the reply to your post was churlish and totally uncalled for.

Having like you, been told several times by the same member how lucky I am to be not to be living in the UK, I suspect there's a certain amount of jealousy attached to the comment, plus a refusal to accept that despite living in other EU countries, because we have relatives in the UK we are affected!

Quite frankly, it isn't worth bothering about


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You really are disillusioned aren't you, then you are lucky not to live in this impending fascist dictatorship and will still have your rights to FoM, soon to exclude the UK of course. Yes, you'll be able to visit the UK, but you'll need a passport, but you'll lose your automatic right to live and work there. Same for me across 30 other countries as the drawbridge lifts up. Happy Christmas eh ?
> 
> Trust a word Johnson says especially about the NHS and Trump?
> 
> Best keep you on ignore before I say something I regret.
> 
> Edited to remove swearing and profanity.


It's rather too late to undo what you said by simply editing your post !

How about an apology or is that too much to expect?


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> not just my opinion though, I should probably have made it clearer. It's being said in a lot of quarters that a free trade deal is ready to be put forward and signed in the event of no deal.


Hmm, perhaps I'm just cynical, but I do find it a little hard to believe that we would have a free trade deal *ready to be signed* on the 1st November.

_*Starting talks*_ on the 1st November, yes, absolutely. But not a fully fledged deal ready to be signed. We've had enough trouble for three years with the suppedly far simpler transition deal, to 'negotiate' an entire free trade agreement and sign it off in one day seems highly unlikely. Even before you consider having no input from parliament would not go down well in either chamber.

Besides, it's all well and good having a trade deal proposal to put forward, but the EU actually have to agree to it too. If they say no, which they are perfectly entitled to do if they think they can get a better deal for the huge number of people and countries they represent (IMHO higly likely), what then?


----------



## SusieRainbow

Magyarmum said:


> It's rather too late to undo what you said by simply editing your post !
> 
> How about an apology or is that too much to expect?


I edited it.


----------



## MilleD

SusieRainbow said:


> I edited it.


It's still quoted a few times though....


----------



## SusieRainbow

MilleD said:


> It's still quoted a few times though....


Hopefully all quotes removed.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> You really don't have to apologise. IMHO the reply to your post was churlish and totally uncalled for.
> 
> Having like you, been told several times by the same member how lucky I am to be not to be living in the UK, I suspect there's a certain amount of jealousy attached to the comment, plus a refusal to accept that despite living in other EU countries, because we have relatives in the UK we are affected!
> 
> Quite frankly, it isn't worth bothering about


I normally don't let things bother me at all. I won't go on about it as I don't want to side track this thread.

Thank you @SusieRainbow and @Magyarmum for your replies.

Please if I am ever in the wrong let me know and I will immediately correct myself when it is pointed out.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Hmm, perhaps I'm just cynical, but I do find it a little hard to believe that we would have a free trade deal *ready to be signed* on the 1st November.
> 
> _*Starting talks*_ on the 1st November, yes, absolutely. But not a fully fledged deal ready to be signed. We've had enough trouble for three years with the suppedly far simpler transition deal, to 'negotiate' an entire free trade agreement and sign it off in one day seems highly unlikely. Even before you consider having no input from parliament would not go down well in either chamber.
> 
> Besides, it's all well and good having a trade deal proposal to put forward, but the EU actually have to agree to it too. If they say no, which they are perfectly entitled to do if they think they can get a better deal for the huge number of people and countries they represent (IMHO higly likely), what then?


As a cynical observer, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's a number of deals ready to be signed and one will be pulled out depending on what happens next. Boris seemed to rather quickly come up with this deal. Old boys' network maybe? I'm sure there's plenty going on over bottles of port that we know nowt about.

Half a dozen Remainers pop over to Brussels to ask the Eu to refuse to negotiate with Boris and grant an extension, but five minutes later Boris has his deal and Juncker, although careful in what he says, is implying there'll be no extension. Little to no mention of Lammy, Grieve, Cable etc going to Brussels. All seems very shady to me.


----------



## Guest

https://www.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1WX1NL

The Irish Prime Minister has said that the United Kingdom Parliament should not take it for granted that a further delay will be accepted by the European Union.

The pressure is building on the United Kingdom Parliament to accept this deal or face no deal.


----------



## Guest

Irish Prime Minister has not long said Plan B is no deal and that Ireland has been preparing for it.


Looks like this is the end of the road on the Brexit negotiations and the chance of another extension being granted may not happen.

The 27 countries leaders remaining in the European Union get the final say on this and 2 countries have been very hardlined about this.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Irish Prime Minister has not long said Plan B is no deal and that Ireland has been preparing for it.


I'm preparing for it too - moreso since BoJo took over and was obviously keen for a No Deal. Particularly for the cats, as all their tinned food comes from Germany. It's also the reason I've had so much work done on the house etc. this year...


----------



## MilleD

I'm just hoping this gets resolved one way or another and that markets start moving again once the uncertainty is over.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't think a few days enough for them to have read and understood everything in the deal to vote on it. to much is at stake!


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think a few days enough for them to have read and understood everything in the deal to vote on it. to much is at stake!


The United Kingdom Parliament works quickly when it wants to. It passed the Benn Act in under 24 hours.


----------



## KittenKong

saartje said:


> @KittenKong. Enough is enough.
> 
> I found your post rude and out of order.
> You're showing that you are not an open minded person at all infact the opposite, closed minded.
> I have been extremely calm and polite and not taken offence to anything you have posted until now.
> You come across aggressive and hostile to me and I do not like that at all.
> I thought you had already put me on ignore because you ignore any facts that are posted and ramble on with what people are saying on other social media platforms without researching the facts to later having what you have posted proven to be wrong.
> You fail to realise that my family maybe affected by the United Kingdom leaving the European Union as well.
> I do not expect a reply from you at all as you have put me on ignore.
> 
> I will leave things there I think.


I think it best that I ignore you and you ignore me.

I find your posts utterly patronising and sickening quite frankly.

I starred out any use of bad language and the f word completely.

You accuse me of being narrow minded, typical Brexiter turning the tables. And resorting to personal insults suggests you are the narrow minded one.

What makes you worse is, Brexit isn't going to affect you is it. You've got a cheek to tell us to embrace what won't affect you.

You will get absolutely no apology from me but I'll leave it there. I stand by my post 100%.

Obviously, if I have broken forum rules I will apologise to the forum moderators and owners, but you won't get one from me.

Have a good life.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> I'm just hoping this gets resolved one way or another and that markets start moving again once the uncertainty is over.


Self inflicted and completely unnecessary, all over an on going dispute within the Tory party.

If Johnson wins tomorrow which I strongly suspect he will do, (I'm at the march in London tomorrow incidentally), this is just the start of painful negotiations with other countries to replace the EU wide one. It'll take decades.

A trade deal with EU countries would be complicated through the reduction of safety standards Trump will force the UK to adopt, as They'll be below what's acceptable to EU countries. To think the UK once enjoyed similar high standards, but guess we must respect the will of the people...


----------



## Happy Paws2

I will accept the vote, we'll see what happens if BJ gets it though, but I dread it if he does, and if it all goes wrong, which I think it will, I just hope leavers can live with themselves.


----------



## Guest

My views on what happens tomorrow in the United Kingdom Parliament are this, I hope the deal is voted in favour for and passes through the United Kingdom Parliament. 

I hope for a positive outcome.


----------



## Dave S

I also hope the deal is accepted tomorrow however I do have doubts as BJ needs 320 votes which means that some Labour MPs and ex Conservative MP's need to vote in favour.
Unfortunately Corbyn is still of the opinion that Labour would not support any deal though and Lib Dems don't want to leave. DUP will not support either.

if this deal fails, even by the narrowest of margins I cannot see any other viable alternative than a no-deal exit as EU would not be too willing to grant an extension after 3+ years of discussion/arguments and generally p*****g of the rest of the world.
And in that case, do these MP's deserve our support in the next election and also do they deserve their positions and salaries?

Surely there are only 2 deals, this one or no-deal, how can it be so difficult to decide.


----------



## Guest

Dave S said:


> Surely there are only 2 deals, this one or no-deal, how can it be so difficult to decide.


Which ever one happens this is only one part of what happens.This is only the withdrawal deal or settlement. The next deal and stage of negotiations will be the future relationship and trade deal. Johnson has idicated that the United Kingdom Government want a free tade deal.


----------



## KittenKong

"Now is the winter of our discontent"....


----------



## KittenKong

Dave S said:


> Surely there are only 2 deals, this one or no-deal, how can it be so difficult to decide.


No, it would have to be this deal, no deal or Revoke A50 and remain.

Only half the UK voted to leave- England and Wales but not Scotland and NI, nor Gibraltar they have conveniently seen as irrelevant.

I'd consider it considerably unfair if the people were given a choice between No Deal or Johnson/ May's deal in Scotland etc., in much the same sense a choice between only Remain or J/M's deal would be for England and Wales.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I think it best that I ignore you and you ignore me.
> 
> I find your posts utterly patronising and sickening quite frankly.
> 
> You reported me for the use of bad language. I starred out any use of bad language and the f word completely.
> 
> You accuse me of being narrow minded, typical Brexiter turning the tables.
> 
> What makes you worse is, Brexit isn't going to affect you is it. You've got a cheek to tell us to embrace what won't affect you.
> 
> You will get absolutely no apology from me but I'll leave it there. I stand by my post 100%.
> 
> Obviously, if I have broken forum rules I will apologise to the forum moderators and owners, but you won't get one from me.
> 
> Have a good life.


His parents live here , It could well affect him. As a member of this forum he is entitled to post his opinion. maybe you should put more people on ignore instead of going ape shit. 
But agree with you about putting you on ignore.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> His parents live here , It could well affect him.


The United Kingdom leaving the European Union will affect my parents and family in the United Kingdom.


----------



## SusieRainbow

KittenKong said:


> You reported me for the use of bad language. I starred out any use of bad language and the f word completely.


Just to clarify, no-one reported you.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> His parents live here , It could well affect him. As a member of this forum he is entitled to post his opinion. maybe you should put more people on ignore instead of going ape shit.
> But agree with you about putting you on ignore.


If his parents live he, he should know better then shouldn't he.

I agree he's entitled to his opinion, but not to deliberately resort to personal insults as this poster does, then having the audacity to turn the tables and accuse me of being the perpetrator! Then, comes begging for sympathy from other forum members. How pathetic. Reminds me of someone else who used to post here....

Actually, it was my suggestion he put me on ignore, as I have with him. It's just a shame we cannot hide the poster's name in the "Like" bar at the bottom too.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps all the Uk "facists " will move to Bulgaria if they don't like the deal . They'll feel right at home there .


Football "fans" don't represent the beliefs of an individual country, in much the same way those England "fans" who blocked a black man from entering a Paris metro train chanting, "We voted out" or words to that effect, don't represent the UK population.

Good to know the Bulgarian authorities have taken action against some in the crowd.


----------



## KittenKong

SusieRainbow said:


> Just to clarify, no-one reported you.


I have edited my post to withdraw this accusation, with my apologies.


----------



## Guest

I was just going to leave things but I have been made to feel very unwelcome on here by you.

I did see the comments made before I logged in (as I often read this thread and other threads first before logging on so I can understand what is being said) this morning which have now been edited by you. The point is I saw the comments before you removed them. There was alot of hostile comments towards me. Also I do not see how I should have known better because my family live in the United Kingdom and I do not. I have not trolled anyone on this thread either.

I do not want this drama either. You are on ignore as well and have been since yesterday.

I hope you are happy with yourself and saying things to upset me? Do you normally make people feel unwelcome and be nasty to them?

I am sorry you do not like me or the way I post that is fine.

To everyone else I am sorry I did not mean to take this thread off topic again.


----------



## Happy Paws2

No need to say sorry, I think you have been treated badly.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> If his parents live he, he should know better then shouldn't he.
> 
> *I agree he's entitled to his opinion, but not to deliberately resort to personal insults as this poster does*, then having the audacity to turn the tables and accuse me of being the perpetrator! Then, comes begging for sympathy from other forum members. How pathetic. Reminds me of someone else who used to post here....
> 
> Actually, it was my suggestion he put me on ignore, as I have with him. It's just a shame we cannot hide the poster's name in the "Like" bar at the bottom too.


If this post isn't insulting to the OP, I'm not sure what is!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> If this post isn't insulting to the OP, I'm not sure what is!


Maybe I snapped back a bit too hard perhaps? Brexit has brought out the worst in people.

Anyway, I'm off to London....


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Seen on Facebook:


It's got to be true then?


----------



## kimthecat

Its sad we are arguing like this.


----------



## SusieRainbow

I realise this is a hot emotive topic, more so than ever today ! All I will say is to ask you to be considerate of each other's feelings and avoid the passive agression that seems to run through the thread. However, the old adage does apply, if you can't stand the heat keep out of the kitchen !


----------



## cheekyscrip

This Deal is worse for than May Deal which was worse than Remain.

But still less disastrous than No Deal.


We need PV.

This deal or stay.

USA will treat us exactly as they did now putting 25% tax on whisky. Scottish.
While did not rise tax on Irish whiskey.


Why would anyone one wanted to leave EU to get into deals with USA????


Brexit will really affect workers right ms, health care and generally quality of life except for the rich and privileged.

Who happen to own media...

EU with all their faults is better than USA.

Our deal through EU will be lost and the new ones will benefit USA, Russia, China.

Don’t tell me we have good deals with Faroe Islands or Timbuktu and that is a replacement.


----------



## kimthecat

The whiskey rax etc is trump retaliating against the eu. Something to do with planes. Nothing to do with brexit.
Hope fully trump wont be around for long.
Boris and tories hopefully will be out next elction.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> *The whiskey rax etc is trump retaliating against the eu. Something to do with planes. Nothing to do with brexit.*
> Hope fully trump wont be around for long.
> Boris and tories hopefully will be out next elction.


But if proves we can't trust them.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> The whiskey rax etc is trump retaliating against the eu. Something to do with planes. Nothing to do with brexit.
> Hope fully trump wont be around for long.
> Boris and tories hopefully will be out next elction.





Happy Paws2 said:


> But if proves we can't trust them.


Nothing to do with Brexit or trust, The tariffs were authorised by the WTO due to illegal funding of Air Bus by EU governments.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ok-to-hit-eu-with-7-5-billion-airbus-sanction

*U.S. Gets Final OK to Hit EU With $7.5 Billion Airbus Sanction*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://africanbusinessmagazine.com...-with-uk/?mc_cid=475ec30b15&mc_eid=f19a6d43d9

*African nations sign post-Brexit trade deal with UK*

Trade between the UK and the SACU nations was worth £9.7 million in 2018, and includes electronics and food and beverage imports.

"The SACU+M nations are an important market for UK exports of machinery and mechanical appliances worth £409 million in 2018, motor vehicles worth £335 million, and beverages including whisky worth £136 million," the UK government added.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The next few minutes are going to be interesting.


----------



## Magyarmum

The Letwin Amendment has been passed by 322 votes for and 306 votes against


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> But if proves we can't trust them.


I dont trust any parties leaders. None of them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Here we go again, BJ thinking he is above the law.


----------



## JANICE199

*I'm so glad things didn't go Boris's way. *


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm so glad things didn't go Boris's way. *


and me


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Here we go again, BJ thinking he is above the law.


In what way?


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/mps...um=alert&utm_campaign=MPs+vote+to+force+Boris

*UK MPs force Boris Johnson to seek a Brexit extension*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> In what way?


because he said we ask still leaving on the 31st and no way can we now.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> because he said we ask still leaving on the 31st and no way can we now.


That is not necessarily true. The remaining 27 european countries leaders have to agree and France has said they will veto any extension. The Irish PM has said an extension is not guaranteed.


----------



## Guest

Johnson has said the meaningful vote on his deal will be Monday.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Didnt the EU say that if there was no agreement there would be no more extensions? The ones that voted against the deal may be risking a no deal Brexit.

I dont follow this much anymore. I'd rather there was just a definite answer and just get it over with now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

HarlequinCat said:


> Didnt the EU say that if there was no agreement there would be no more extensions? The ones that voted against the deal may be risking a *no deal Brexit.*
> 
> I dont follow this much anymore. I'd rather there was just a definite answer and just get it over with now.


But haven't they last a law saying we can't leave without a deal.


----------



## Guest

Johnson is going to ask MP's to vote against what the voted for today on Monday before the meaningful vote on the new withdrawal agreement. Todays defeat was only by 16 not like Theresa Mays which was over 50.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies

HarlequinCat said:


> Didnt the EU say that if there was no agreement there would be no more extensions?


Yup. What a mess.

*The French President said it was "time to put an end" to Brexit negotiations as he suggested EU leaders would veto any further delay ahead of a crunch Saturday vote on Boris Johnson's new plan.

The warning from Mr Macron follows similar comments from Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, who said MPs should not make the "assumption" the bloc would allow a further delay.

"Plan B is no deal, and we're all preparing for that, and we've all been preparing for that since the referendum, but let's hope that doesn't happen," he said.

"I don't think MPs voting tomorrow should make the assumption there would be unanimity for an extension.*


J


----------



## Elles

Dreadful. If you campaigned for a vote and voted leave, it must be very depressing watching a Remain parliament veto it. However, Theresa May’s domestic policies and unpopular withdrawal deal put forward at the last election and that leave had already won, is probably why Boris doesn’t have a majority. I would imagine that leave voters who voted Lib Dem or Labour, thinking brexit was a done deal and believing remain mps who said they respected the result, are now kicking themselves.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I still a peoples vote would be a good idea, we know more about the consequences of leaving or staying, so we would have a more informed decision. Before some people voted to leave just to leave without thinking what it might meant.

I did say *some *people, because I've heard of some really silly reasons why they vote to leave.


----------



## MollySmith

HarlequinCat said:


> Didnt the EU say that if there was no agreement there would be no more extensions? The ones that voted against the deal may be risking a no deal Brexit.
> 
> I dont follow this much anymore. I'd rather there was just a definite answer and just get it over with now.


But it's not. This is only part of it. There's years of laws to sort out, emotional upheaval, for those who are not yet under settled status lots of agonising waiting and, if Boris does get it done as he says, for him yes probably but for most of us there will almost certainly be financial repercussions. Getting it done is impossible unfortunately. I do agree that I wish it wasn't the main focus, that should be the planet. Not sure which is easier to solve.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I still a peoples vote would be a good idea, we know more about the consequences of leaving or staying, so we would have a more informed decision. Before some people voted to leave just to leave without thinking what it might meant.
> 
> I did say *some *people, because I've heard of some really silly reasons why they vote to leave.


Yes I agree. I openly confess that I voted remain because I had no trust in Boris or Nigel back then and that was my only reason. Then I realised just what the EU do. There is a useful website that's called something like what does the EU do in your area and I was actually very surprised at just how much and in areas that are predominantly Leave. It's a website that we should have had back when we voted.

With no disrespect to anyone here, I've not met anyone on this thread or the others who seemed adequately qualified, me included. We've been completely played for fools and frankly any MP moaning about spending a Saturday in Westminster or generally having a winge especially David can't flog me memoirs Cameron, this is their doing. And the media too.

The only vague crumb of comfort is that some of us may have worked out just how awful the lies are but sadly we are still waiting on the truth. Nobody has come out of this well. I just worry there's a cost to other things like paying attention to climate change. At this rate we shall be flooded and wishing we were geographically joined to Europe.

Anyway good on those marching, my favourite sign so far was a Little Britain on Matt Lucas's Twitter feed that said 'Yeah but No'! I would have loved to be there but my gran passed away and life is a bit on hold right now.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> The whiskey rax etc is trump retaliating against the eu. Something to do with planes. Nothing to do with brexit.
> Hope fully trump wont be around for long.
> Boris and tories hopefully will be out next elction.


Funny that is not EU Irish whiskey.

Yes, it is a retaliatory tax and shows clearly what to expect from our next BFF


----------



## KittenKong

Been a fantastic day. Was at Parliament Square when Johnson's, "Super Saturday" didn't turn out that way for him!

Brilliant!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that is not EU Irish whiskey.


I understand Irish whiskey is being taxed or is that not what you meant. ?
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/kerrygold-irish-whiskey-baileys-us-tax-tariff

ETA my original reply to you was in response to this

" USA will treat us exactly as they did now putting 25% tax on whisky. Scottish.
While did not rise tax on Irish whiskey. "

As has been said , it was his response to the EU , maybe after or if we leave it wont apply .


----------



## KittenKong

He even lied in the second paragraph and when he said he would rather die in a ditch.

And soon, the Jennifer Arcuri scandal will rear its ugly head again.

Oh, how my heart bleeds...

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

Johnson sent 3 letters to Donald Tusk and the European Union

*Letter 1*









*Letter 2*

















*Letter 3*
A copy of the Benn Act


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny that is not EU Irish whiskey.
> 
> Yes, it is a retaliatory tax and shows clearly what to expect from our next BFF


You're not making sense

The taxes the US have imposed have nothing to do with Brexit and were levied against several EU countries including the UK and Ireland.

And nothing to do with Trump either except for the fact that he "happens" to be POTUS.

It could just as well have been Obama or whoever is elected in the 2020 US election


----------



## Guest

Although MP's and those on the march in London yesterday may think they have a victory I feel it maybe short lived. The European Union remaining 27 countries get the final say in this not the United Kingdom. President Macron of France has already said that he will not back a further extension and use the veto France has. All it needs is one country in the remaining 27 European Countries to say no and the the MP's in the United Kingdom are left with a stark choice of passing this deal or no deal. The mood in the European Union is to get this done so that talks can move onto the Furture Relationship and Free Trade Deal, personally I think that the United Kingdom will be very lucky to get an extension this time around.

Boris Johnsons letters come across that he is discouraging the European Union Council and Donald Tusk from allowing another extension to article 50 on the Withdrawal Agreement.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket as the saying goes. I feel the remaining 27 countries will be very reluctant to give this extension to article 50.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> You're not making sense
> 
> The taxes the US have imposed have nothing to do with Brexit and were levied against several EU countries including the UK and Ireland.
> 
> And nothing to do with Trump either except for the fact that he "happens" to be POTUS.
> 
> It could just as well have been Obama or whoever is elected in the 2020 US election


I don't think Obama was doing this retaliation taxes?

This is Trump's policy.

Funny if you say it was against EU yet Irish whiskey not affected.


----------



## cheekyscrip

EU doesn’t want NO Deal. They would prefer no Brexit.

Brexit is very much ERG idea.

Why EU should support what ERG wants?

We should have extension and PV when it is clear what Brexit means and what the consequences, positive and negative are and who will be affected.


----------



## Guest

It's funny you say that because it is not the reaction that is coming from the French President who is saying an extension is in nobody's interest:










https://www.france24.com/en/20191020-eu-mulls-johnson-s-reluctant-brexit-delay-request

...and this off Euronews:


----------



## Happy Paws2

As long as we get a fair deal, this one has lost the plot, but that's what BJ wants so we can't leave without a deal.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I don't think Obama was doing this retaliation taxes?
> 
> This is Trump's policy.
> 
> Funny if you say it was against EU yet Irish whiskey not affected.


Much as I love you Cheeky, you're wrong!

This case has been ongoing since 2004 when George W Brush was POTUS

https://www.reuters.com/article/wto...15-year-airbus-boeing-trade-war-idUSL2N24G18K

*TIMELINE-Highlights of the 15-year Airbus, Boeing trade war*

I stand to be corrected but as far as I understand the tariffs imposed of each EU country is proportional according to their involvement in subsidising Airbus.

Although whiskey made in Southern Ireland has not been taxed, Baileys Irish Cream has.

https://extra.ie/2019/10/18/business/irish/us-tariffs-popular-irish-goods

*TRUMP'S TARIFFS ON SEVERAL POPULAR IRISH GOODS COME INTO FORCE TODAY*

Here is the full list of tariffs giving details of what affects which EU country.

https://www.scarbrough-intl.com/section-301-tariffs-on-eu-products-list-1/

*Section 301 Tariffs on EU Products - List 1*


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> As long as we get a fair deal, this one has lost the plot, but that's what BJ wants so we can't leave without a deal.


Naturally, I'd prefer even closer association with the rest of Europe, adopting the Euro and Schengen etc. Nevertheless, the only deal that would be acceptable to myself and countless other Remainers is the one that keeps us partially aligned with the EU without actually being members. It works for countries such as Norway and Switzerland with the SM and FoM rights being protected. Remain in the CU too would avoid an Irish/UK border as well.

Some of the pro Leave campaigns actually suggested similar in 2016 before Theresa May made the prospect of a no deal fashionable.

To believe the UK alone could achieve better trade deals independent of the EU in the 21st century is pure fantasy.
More so, being led by a bunch of Lord Snooty idiots who govern through their background rather than ability.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Much as I love you Cheeky, you're wrong!
> 
> This case has been ongoing since 2004 when George W Brush was POTUS
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/wto...15-year-airbus-boeing-trade-war-idUSL2N24G18K
> 
> *TIMELINE-Highlights of the 15-year Airbus, Boeing trade war*
> 
> I stand to be corrected but as far as I understand the tariffs imposed of each EU country is proportional according to their involvement in subsidising Airbus.
> 
> Although whiskey made in Southern Ireland has not been taxed, Baileys Irish Cream has.
> 
> https://extra.ie/2019/10/18/business/irish/us-tariffs-popular-irish-goods
> 
> *TRUMP'S TARIFFS ON SEVERAL POPULAR IRISH GOODS COME INTO FORCE TODAY*
> 
> Here is the full list of tariffs giving details of what affects which EU country.
> 
> https://www.scarbrough-intl.com/section-301-tariffs-on-eu-products-list-1/
> 
> *Section 301 Tariffs on EU Products - List 1*


I :Kiss you too 

Trump is evil.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I :Kiss you too
> 
> Trump is evil.


We could always start a mutual admiration society


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> We could always start a mutual admiration society


There is one. ERG.


----------



## Guest

European Union poised to give the United Kingdom an extension for 3 months (Until February 2020) if Johnson cannot get the new European Union Withdrawal Bill through the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Elles

The deal isn’t going through then is it. There is now an investigation into MPs and John Bercow who have been working with the Eu and France since last January to overturn Brexit. 

Eta I did put a warning about the rude attachment, then deleted it, but it seemed to post anyway, so now I’m putting the warning, but I can’t see the attachment again lol. Ok, now I see it again. I’m not very experienced with attachments. :Hilarious

A leave friend sent me this.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

Elles said:


> The deal isn't going through then is it. There is now an investigation into MPs and John Bercow who have been working with the Eu and France since last January to overturn Brexit.
> 
> Eta I did put a warning about the rude attachment, then deleted it, but it seemed to post anyway, so now I'm putting the warning, but I can't see the attachment again lol. Ok, now I see it again. I'm not very experienced with attachments. :Hilarious
> 
> A leave friend sent me this.


Blimey - that was over three years ago. I'd almost forgotten about it.


----------



## LidLicker

Getting beyond a joke now this Brexit!
Im getting a bit sick of it all now :Meh


----------



## Happy Paws2

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Blimey - that was over three years ago. I'd almost forgotten about it.


If May had got her act together in the first place, instead of all the cabinet infighting and worked with a cross party committee we'd be out now.


----------



## Guest

What started as a joke on Facebook the Farewell Beach Party in Wijk aan Zee, near Amsterdam is to go ahead at 2pm on the 31st October 2019 regardless if the United Kingdom leaves the European Union or not on this date. The local municipality gave permission for the party to go ahead and this was when what was a joke turned into reality. Over 1,000 party goers who purchased tickets for €19.73 are expected to turn up and tickets are still available for sale. The price of the ticket reflects the year the United Kingdom joined the forerunner of the European Union.

https://breakingnews.ie/discover/du...ahead-whether-or-not-uk-leaves-eu-958284.html


----------



## KittenKong

LidLicker said:


> Getting beyond a joke now this Brexit!
> Im getting a bit sick of it all now :Meh


It's dying a slow death as 24/06/16 becomes closer to the past. It won't necessarily stop it happening of course but the campaign against it won't end, as what happened with the Poll Tax.

Rumour has it a certain pro Brexit factor will, too, continue their fight, arguing Johnson's deal is not a proper Brexit!

I was very surprised to see John McDonnell and Diane Abbott at the rally in Parliament Square on Saturday, although very welcome, with them both pledging support for a PV. For ages Labour were, too stuck with the, "We must respect the referendum result and deliver Brexit" rhetoric which lost them much support. McDonnell, I've always thought would make a better Labour leader.

Expecting Corbyn to show up was too much to expect, but credit where credit is due in voting for the Letwin amendment.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone going to watch the Parliament channel this afternoon should be interesting.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone going to watch the Parliament channel this afternoon should be interesting.


CNN are devoting all afternoon to the in depth coverage and analysis of everything that happens, so I'll be watching that


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone going to watch the Parliament channel this afternoon should be interesting.


Nope. The 600 gasbags (the description of a senior civil servant, not me!) aren't worth the stress of watching.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone going to watch the Parliament channel this afternoon should be interesting.


No ! Im sick of it all.


----------



## Jesthar

Yeah, I know we don't like memes, but this one did make me giggle rather more than it ought!


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash
*
*Brexit: Uh? Whuh? What the f**king f**k now?*
21st October 2019









*THEY promised Brexit would be over after this weekend's double-length big Saturday finale, and it isn't. Here's what might happen next: *

*Same vote again*

Boris Johnson's premiership has been an exact rerun of Theresa May's, only with a different lead character and Jeremy Corbyn even less popular. So why not just demand everyone vote on the same thing they've already voted on, before the Speaker blocks it just like last time?

*Sh*tloads of amendments*

The government hasn't passed a bill in months because it's terrified of Parliament making amendments. Now it's been legally required to pass a bill, by an amendment, and it is going to get amended to oblivion. Likely amendments include a referendum, a customs union, and Michael Gove being exiled to Ascension Island.

*Rees-Mogg gets something wrong*

The Commons equivalent of a pub lawyer, Rees-Mogg is authoritative among idiots and an idiot among experts. Every point he raises is wrong and he has no idea. Is already being pitched as a US sitcom which he will leave Britain to star in.

*The EU gives Britain an extension*

Like the parents of a 27-year-old man who wants to leave home but can't because there are new trainers out, the EU doesn't want to grant another extension but will anyway. Expect hints like 'Seriously, can you just hold a f**king referendum' to be dropped and ignored.

*October 31st comes and goes*

The UK's biannual Nothing Happens days are fast becoming a national tradition. In 400 years Britons will still celebrate on March 29th and October 31st by bigging them up for months beforehand and then just sitting in savouring the sweet sensation of anticlimax.

*A general election, eventually*

There will definitely be a general election one day, and according to Brexiters the Conservative will win in a landslide, as will Nigel Farage's Brexit party. It could well be just before Christmas, which because Jeremy Corbyn is a white-bearded Red who hands out gifts will mean parents have to believe in him or upset the kids.


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting article about tax havens.

https://unherd.com/thepost/will-the-eu-shut-down-its-tax-havens/

*Will the EU shut down its tax havens?*


----------



## Magyarmum

John Bercow says no to the discussing the motion, saying it's too similar in substance and circumstance to the motion on Saturday.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> John Bercow says no to the discussing the motion, saying it's too similar in substance and circumstance to the motion on Saturday.


Which it is.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Interesting article about tax havens.
> 
> https://unherd.com/thepost/will-the-eu-shut-down-its-tax-havens/
> 
> *Will the EU shut down its tax havens?*


Luxembourg? Malta?

Really?
EU love them and Juncker loves them.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Luxembourg? Malta?
> 
> Really?
> EU love them and Juncker loves them.


https://www.icij.org/investigations...mbourg-tax-deals-disney-koch-brothers-empire/

*New Leak Reveals Luxembourg Tax Deals for Disney, Koch Brothers Empire*

https://www.icij.org/investigations/luxembourg-leaks/lux-leaks-confession-jean-claude-juncker-admits-he-made-major-mistake/

*Lux Leaks Confession: Jean-Claude Juncker Admits He Made 'Major Mistake'*


----------



## cheekyscrip

I know one thing. Trump is evil, corrupt to the core.

Holding G7 summit in his own golf course in Florida?

Goes against all laws on all levels.

Withholding the support for Ukraine because their president did not dish out dirt on Biden?
Supporting Ergogan and betraying Kurds who fought ISIS.

We should stand together with the rest of EU to fend off that evil not seek to abandon EU and become a vassal of Trump First.


Trump and BoJo both the same.

I do wish both nations woke up from that nightmare.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> John Bercow says no to the discussing the motion, saying it's too similar in substance and circumstance to the motion on Saturday.


 He has too much power and he is biased.

Smarmy little git!


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> He has too much power and he is biased.
> 
> Smarmy little git!


I thought he had resigned, which goes to show how much I've been following this..

And hasn't he had some sort of complaint lodged against him recently?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> He has too much power and he is biased.
> 
> Smarmy little git!


I admire his grit.

After all it is not important if BoJo gets his deal on Halloween but that we have the least damaging deal we can have not just get through whatever in a hurry.

It is far, far too important to have it passed in haste as ERG wishes so.

Government does not want anyone to read the small print.

What is BoJo selling us?

Selling us?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> I thought he had resigned, which goes to show how much I've been following this..
> 
> And hasn't he had some sort of complaint lodged against him recently?


He said he's leave on 31st October or at the General Election whichever comes first.

Is this the complaint you're talking about?

https://politicaluk.co.uk/2019/10/f...d-investigation-to-start-against-john-bercow/

*SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, JOHN BERCOW HAS HAD AN OFFICIAL COMPLAINT LODGED AGAINST HIM BY BARRISTER REBECCA BUTLER.*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> He said he's leave on 31st October or at the General Election whichever comes first.
> 
> Is this the complaint you're talking about?
> 
> https://politicaluk.co.uk/2019/10/f...d-investigation-to-start-against-john-bercow/
> 
> *SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, JOHN BERCOW HAS HAD AN OFFICIAL COMPLAINT LODGED AGAINST HIM BY BARRISTER REBECCA BUTLER.*


Possibly. Is it not for real? No idea what you can trust and not trust on the interweb any more. But I saw Nolan mentioned who I learnt about in my accountancy quals so thought it might be real. Can't even be bothered to check, that's how lackadaisical I've become about it all....


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Smarmy little git!


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious True! And I remember someone calling him this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...d-sanctimonious-dwarf-by-health-minister.html



MilleD said:


> And hasn't he had some sort of complaint lodged against him recently?


I seem to recall something of that nature (very recently) but TBH the whole thing is such a shitfest that I deliberately forget most of it to safeguard my brain.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> I seem to recall something of that nature (very recently) but TBH the whole thing is such a shitfest that I deliberately forget most of it to safeguard my brain.


I know the feeling. I don't like watching the news at the best of times, and this is putting me right off.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I know one thing. Trump is evil, corrupt to the core.
> 
> Holding G7 summit in his own golf course in Florida?
> 
> Goes against all laws on all levels.
> 
> Withholding the support for Ukraine because their president did not dish out dirt on Biden?
> Supporting Ergogan and betraying Kurds who fought ISIS.
> 
> We should stand together with the rest of EU to fend off that evil not seek to abandon EU and become a vassal of Trump First.
> 
> Trump and BoJo both the same.
> 
> I do wish both nations woke up from that nightmare.


The evidence for impeachment is piling up against Trump, and even the Republicans are beginning to turn against him.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixg...rookings Brief&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium

*All roads lead to Putin: This week in impeachment*
.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> The evidence for impeachment is piling up against Trump, and even the Republicans are beginning to turn against him.
> 
> https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/10/18/all-roads-lead-to-putin-this-week-in-impeachment/?utm_campaign=Brookings Brief&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium
> 
> *All roads lead to Putin: This week in impeachment*
> .


I so do hope.

Evil, pure evil Clockwise Orange.

May did not want any debates, any crossparty discussions , now Government wants the vote without actually MPs reading and understanding what they vote for?

We don't need to leave on 31 October or any random day just because BoJo or whoever said so.

We should not rush into anything without knowing what we let ourselves into.


----------



## kimthecat

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAJ6SEN?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

Germany will agree to an extension .

The EU must be sick to death of us !

The unconventional "form" of Boris Johnson's extension request is irrelevant to the EU, the European commission has confirmed, as Germany's finance minister said "it goes without saying" that a further Brexit delay would be granted.

Peter Altmaier, a key ally of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said he believed either a technical extension to allow extra-time for legislation to pass, or a longer period to accommodate a general election or second referendum would be offered.

"We have already twice agreed to an extension. I have repeatedly said as my own opinion I am not ideologically opposed to extending again a few days or a few weeks if you then certainly get a good solution that excludes a hard Brexit," Altmaier said.

"If the British are to opt for one of the longer-term options, that is new elections or a new referendum, then it goes without saying that the European Union should do it, for me anyway."

*What next for Brexit? Follow key developments, expert analysis and multiple perspectives as the UK edges closer to leaving the EU*


----------



## cheekyscrip

This far too important to make any rush and half baked decisions.
I do wish opposition came with something constructive.

I blame Corbyn for sabotaging PV and for so much more.

Toxic ERG or frankly useless Corbyn.

Just frustrated.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Germany will agree to an extension .


It is not Germany the United Kingdom needs to worry about in getting an extension it is France as they plan to veto it.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> The EU must be sick to death of us !


The European Union will not kick the United Kingdom out but France is getting frustrated because they plan to veto any new extension.

One of these scenarios will happen:-

1. The United Kingdom gets an ultimate deadline of 3 months until 1st February 2020 to pass the necessary laws to leave the European Union because the new European Union Withdrawal Agreement is passed in the United Kingdom Parliament.
2. A delay of up to 1 to 5 years is given to the United Kingdom.
3. The European Union resets the Brexit clock completely.
4. France Veto's any extension and the United Kingdom MP's are left with the choice of this deal or no deal or crashing out of the European Union completely.

There has to a reason for an extension. The European Union will not extend article 50 for no reason. The European Union has previously said that a General Election or Second Referendum or a technical extension to pass necessary laws to leave the European Union are the acceptable reasons for an extension.

No extension is guaranteed to happen and the Irish Prime Minister did say something along these lines last week.

The United Kingdom do not get to decide how long the new extension will be or if it will happen it is up to the European Union remaining 27 leaders.

The European Union is currently waiting to see if the United Kingdom Parliament will pass the new European Union Withdrawal Agreement.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> I so do hope.
> 
> Evil, pure evil Clockwise Orange.
> 
> May did not want any debates, any crossparty discussions , now Government wants the vote without actually MPs reading and understanding what they vote for?
> 
> We don't need to leave on 31 October or any random day just because BoJo or whoever said so.
> 
> We should not rush into anything without knowing what we let ourselves into.


For your edification,the full withdrawal agreement .............................. that's if you've got time to wade through all 115 pages

Enjoy!

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2019-2020/0007/20007.pdf


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/bre...&utm_campaign=36c8298fc9-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_

*Brexit options: Extension, flextension or just more tension*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> For your edification,the full withdrawal agreement .............................. that's if you've got time to wade through all 115 pages
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2019-2020/0007/20007.pdf


In two days? I need extensive extension!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

It would be utterly idiotic to pass through such important bill without reading it.
Discussion and debate on Brexit took years, but not the actual Bill.
Public also has the right to have time to read it.

I do admire @Magyarmum and her fast reading but we mere mortals can't.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> It would be utterly idiotic to pass through such important bill without reading it.
> Discussion and debate on Brexit took years, but not the actual Bill.
> Public also has the right to have time to read it.
> 
> I do admire @Magyarmum and her fast reading but we mere mortals can't.


Who said I'd read it?


----------



## kimthecat

I understand that Boris is threatening another General election . They're not sure if he is bluffing.



Magyarmum said:


> Who said I'd read it?


:Hilarious :Hilarious :Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

When we joined they debated for 31 days (they were saying on the news last night) so surely they need more than a few days to make sure they have got all the fact before they vote on this deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> When we joined they debated for 31 days (they were saying on the news last night) so surely they need more than a few days to make sure they have got all the fact before they vote on this deal.


This is what ERG wants. Bully Parliament to pass it, why the devil is in the details.

Short transition and practically No Deal from 2020.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> The EU must be sick to death of us !


I dunno, Kim, the megabucks we pay must be a consolation I guess!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I dunno, Kim, the megabucks we pay must be a consolation I guess!!


Well here's what Juncker thinks ....... for what it's worth:Rage

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-awaste-of-time-and-energy-jean-claude-juncker/

*Jean-Claude Juncker: Brexit has been a 'waste of time and energy*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Well here's what Juncker thinks ....... for what it's worth:Rage
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-awaste-of-time-and-energy-jean-claude-juncker/
> 
> *Jean-Claude Juncker: Brexit has been a 'waste of time and energy*


Instead of pulling together to fend off the Orange, Putin and Co and the rest.

EU might be fair from ideal, but so is Britain and sucking up to USA will not make us great again.

Deregulated, but not great.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Well here's what Juncker thinks ....... for what it's worth:Rage
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-awaste-of-time-and-energy-jean-claude-juncker/
> 
> *Jean-Claude Juncker: Brexit has been a 'waste of time and energy*


I don't think he's far wrong. I feel I wasted my time going down the road to vote, but hey ho . . .


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes 329 Noes 299

House of Commons has voted and approved the Withdrawal Agreement Bill

Now voting for BJ's proposed Brexit Timetable


----------



## Magyarmum

Ayes 309 Noes 322

Timetable to discuss Brexit rejected.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Ayes 309 Noes 322
> 
> Timetable to discuss Brexit rejected.


:Banghead


----------



## Elles

So they voted for a deal they knew would be pulled if they voted against the timetable for it? They then voted against the timetable for it, expecting Boris to pull it.

Was this so they could look as though they aren’t trying to prevent Brexit? Voting for a deal they could immediately vote back down again? The points of order seemed to imply such, as they spoke as though the deal didn’t pass, or it had been pulled. The speaker was asked to clarify that the deal did actually pass, as Remainers like jo swinson seemed to have missed it. Boris has paused it to see what the Eu says, he hasn’t pulled it yet.


----------



## Happy Paws2

BJ is acting like a spoiled brat.


----------



## Guest

From what I understand the PM has paused it because Parliament voted against the program motion which means it cannot advance. He has not broken any rules or laws. Does anyone know what the Leader of the House announced as the business of the house?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Now let’s wait for economic impact assessment ( known by some who need no experts as scaremongering).
I suspect it is worse than Remain and even worse than May Deal but still better than No Deal which we will get after transition ( more or less).


So now the small print will start coming out of woodwork...
Workers’ rights, environmental impact...

All that boring stuff people don’t want to know until it hits home...


At least to save the Customs Union not just for NI!
Plus PV once people can actually look at the Bill if want to know.

If they don’t and prefer to trust Boris then up to them.

In 2016 there was even no plan for Brexit how on earth anyone could know how it will pan out?

Let’s have PV on this very BoJo Deal and the Will of The People once the Deal is on the table and economic impact known.


I am sick of WoTP while the very people cannot vote on actual deal!!!
Government is scared The People don’t want that rotten deal?

It was a great mistake of Corbyn not to support PV.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Just can't help myself...

:Hilarious

That is a nice, big one... "You will never walk alone" ... surely he will want his bezzies from the bench to join?


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> BJ is acting like a spoiled brat.


In what way ?


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> So they voted for a deal they knew would be pulled if they voted against the timetable for it? They then voted against the timetable for it, expecting Boris to pull it.
> 
> Was this so they could look as though they aren't trying to prevent Brexit? Voting for a deal they could immediately vote back down again? The points of order seemed to imply such, as they spoke as though the deal didn't pass, or it had been pulled. The speaker was asked to clarify that the deal did actually pass, as Remainers like jo swinson seemed to have missed it. Boris has paused it to see what the Eu says, he hasn't pulled it yet.


I saw it that they passed the deal but need more time to talk about it. Boris has suspended it and I expect the EU will give more time and he will accept the extra time.
It has to pass the House of Lords too.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Workers' rights, environmental impact...


Workers' rights in this country are far greater than those afforded to many in other Eu countries and go much further than Eu recommendations. We have longer holidays and maternity leave, a higher basic pay and better conditions, because that is what voters want, nothing to do with the Eu.

I'm sure working in Gibraltar is better than many jobs in Spain and why the Spanish hop over the border and people from all over Europe have travelled to live and work in the U.K. We are also leading the way on many environmental and animal welfare issues and will be pushing to go even further after Brexit, when we can hold our government to account. They are already talking about live exports, something we have no control over whilst in the Eu.

It's a pretty big insult to those who have worked and campaigned in the U.K. for people's rights, both in this country and overseas, to say that it's just the Eu and we'll tear up the rules as soon as we leave. People who are worried about it can always vote for Corbyn.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> saw it that they passed the deal but need more time to talk about it. Boris has suspended it and I expect the EU will give more time and he will accept the extra time.
> It has to pass the House of Lords too.


Remainers are clearly slower readers than leavers.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Puzzled. At the airport waiting for the flight to Spain. Have yet to see a single promotion of Brexit.

I would have thought by now it would be full of those, "Get Ready" promotions.

I expect it will be a different matter once we get to Spain. We'll see.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Workers' rights in this country are far greater than those afforded to many in other Eu countries and go much further than Eu recommendations. We have longer holidays and maternity leave, a higher basic pay and better conditions, because that is what voters want, nothing to do with the Eu.
> 
> I'm sure working in Gibraltar is better than many jobs in Spain and why the Spanish hop over the border and people from all over Europe have travelled to live and work in the U.K. We are also leading the way on many environmental and animal welfare issues and will be pushing to go even further after Brexit, when we can hold our government to account. They are already talking about live exports, something we have no control over whilst in the Eu.
> 
> It's a pretty big insult to those who have worked and campaigned in the U.K. for people's rights, both in this country and overseas, to say that it's just the Eu and we'll tear up the rules as soon as we leave. People who are worried about it can always vote for Corbyn.


Aren't the better working conditions and salaries etc one of the main reasons people from other EU countries come to work in the UK?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Aren't the better working conditions and salaries etc one of the main reasons people from other EU countries come to work in the UK?


This is why they want to get rid of unless you think JRM is the champion of the working classes?

How the low taxes will be achieved?

Insult or not do you think Boris will respect how hard people fought for their rights if it stands on his way?

TBH much I dislike Corbyn I have more trust in this cantankerous old git that bully Boris.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Aren't the better working conditions and salaries etc one of the main reasons people from other EU countries come to work in the UK?


This is why they want to get rid of unless you think JRM is the champion of the working classes?

How the low taxes will be achieved?

Insult or not do you think Boris will respect how hard people fought for their rights if it stands on his way?

TBH much I dislike Corbyn I have more trust in this cantankerous old git that bully Boris.


----------



## kimthecat

I expect they will try to add amendments to the bill.


----------



## Guest

Great news the United Kingdom MP's voted in favour of the new Withdrawal Agreement.

The United Kingdom PM decided to slam the brakes on the brexit last night. It is over to the remaining 27 countries in the European Union's leaders to agree on an extension. The United Kingdom should not put all its eggs in one basket on one being given. *If *an extension is given it won't necessarily be until the end of January 2020 it could be as short as the end of the first week of November 2019 or even no extension at all if France gets its way. Yes Donald Tusk has recommended an extension to the 27 remaining countries leaders but no they do not have to agree. The European Union 27 leaders get the final say.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> I expect they will try to add amendments to the bill.


Well they better decide fast what they are doing. Doesn't the United Kingdom Parliament break up for Halloween, Christmas and New Year celebrations? Not many sitting days in the United Kingdom Parliament days left inbetween as they don't sit Friday's, Saturday's and Sunday's or United Kingdom Bank or National Holidays. This is assuming that an extension is given until the end of January 2020.


----------



## Guest

The United Kingdom may get a flexi extension meaning that if the new withdrawal bill and laws gets through the United Kingdom Parliament the extension will be terminated at that point.

Guy Verhofstadt has said the United Kingdom may only get a 3 week extension taking it to the 3rd week in November 2019.

So there is mixed comments already coming out of the European Union.


----------



## Guest

I know not Brexit related but another country joins the Schengen area.

*EU Commission gives Croatia the greenlight for Schengen*

https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/22/croatia-joins-the-schengen-area


----------



## Elles

If Boris tries to ride roughshod over peoples’ rights in this country, he will be voted out before you can say Jeremy Corbyn and Jo Swinson. It will be up to us, the people who vote and live under this government, which is as it should be. 

When you used to say that the U.K. should stay in the Eu to influence it and prevent Germany and France taking over, it was a far more appealing argument than implying were all plebs, idiots and sheeples that will happily comply with whatever this supposedly evil government tells us to do and that the all benevolent Eu are protecting us from.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I would have thought by now it would be full of those, "Get Ready" promotions.


Still on TV, amusingly enough, and still giving 31st as the ''big day''. Actually, Hallowe'en is quite an appropriate date in view of the current spectacular shitfest, I think.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Aren't the better working conditions and salaries etc one of the main reasons people from other EU countries come to work in the UK?


 Yes - and dying in the attempt: news today that 39 Bulgarians found dead in a shipping container in Essex- shocking.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Yes - and dying in the attempt: news today that 39 Bulgarians found dead in a shipping container in Essex- shocking.


Dreadful. Those poor people, how they must have suffered.

BBC news , Seems Corbyn has visited No 10 for talks with Boris.
I think they want to avoid a winter election.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Workers' rights in this country are far greater than those afforded to many in other Eu countries and go much further than Eu recommendations. We have longer holidays and maternity leave, a higher basic pay and better conditions, because that is what voters want, nothing to do with the Eu.
> 
> I'm sure working in Gibraltar is better than many jobs in Spain and why the Spanish hop over the border and people from all over Europe have travelled to live and work in the U.K. We are also leading the way on many environmental and animal welfare issues and will be pushing to go even further after Brexit, when we can hold our government to account. They are already talking about live exports, something we have no control over whilst in the Eu.
> 
> It's a pretty big insult to those who have worked and campaigned in the U.K. for people's rights, both in this country and overseas, to say that it's just the Eu and we'll tear up the rules as soon as we leave. People who are worried about it can always vote for Corbyn.


Good post. I've found it perplexing that people think the whole country is going to turn to [email protected] when we already have it a lot better than the EU could 'force' us to.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Yes - and dying in the attempt: news today that 39 Bulgarians found dead in a shipping container in Essex- shocking.


Are they Bulgarian? The lorry came from Bulgaria but it could be anyone trying to get here I guess.

The lorry driver has been arrested for suspected murder which also seems odd though.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Are they Bulgarian? The lorry came from Bulgaria but it could be anyone trying to get here I guess.
> 
> The lorry driver has been arrested for suspected murder which also seems odd though.


I heard that it might be a case of human trafficking.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/uk/essex-truck-lorry-container-bodies-intl-gbr/index.html

*Murder probe launched after dozens of bodies found in truck*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> I heard that it might be a case of human trafficking.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/uk/essex-truck-lorry-container-bodies-intl-gbr/index.html
> 
> *Murder probe launched after dozens of bodies found in truck*


Wonder if the upshot would have been different if there were more border checks....

RIP. Lost their lives trying to get here, and would have been exploited for others financial gain if they did


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> The lorry driver


 He, I read, is from NI.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Are they Bulgarian?


 A very early report said so, but now they are saying it's a difficult job to identify them; probably travelling without ID?


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> He, I read, is from NI.


Did you change this? I'm sure my notification read different


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> Did you change this? I'm sure my notification read different


yes


----------



## Calvine

Apparently a refrigerated lorry? Lord almighty.


----------



## kimthecat

We certainly don't want to get involved with China , look what they're up too!  :Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> We certainly don't want to get involved with China , look what they're up too!  :Hilarious


Good lord, whatever next!! Using their sleevies to hide their armies??


----------



## kimthecat

@MilleD That's cunning.! Don't give then ideas. 

This might actually come true!
Julian Popov
@julianpopov
·
Oct 19
The year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Good lord, whatever next!! Using their sleevies to hide their armies??


Or disguising their planes as flying chickens?


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Wednesday 23 October 2019*

*Proud Brexiter updates his 'British Independence Day' tattoo with yet another leaving date*









*Proud Brexit supporter and patriot Derek Williams has this morning updated his UK Independence Day tattoo, after hearing that Brexit might be delayed - yet again - this time to the end of January.*

A defiant Williams said he was happy to sit in the tattooists chair for the fifth time in less than a year in the hope this iteration of his design will be the final one.

"You pathetic snowflakes need to get over it and realise we won!" he told us while having his tattoo wrapped.

"We're leaving the EU at the end of January - for real this time - and that will be the end of it. You loser remainers just need to deal with it. The final victory is now commemorated on my chest forever.

"And also, this _really_ needs to be it for Brexit extensions, mainly because what started out as a chest tattoo is now getting dangerously close to my belly button.

"Another couple of extensions and I might need to shave pubes before they can update it!"

Tattooist Matthew Logan told us, "He's a good customer, pays on time and is always pretty straightforward with what he wants - 'put a line through the last date and write in the new one'.

"The first time he walked in I suggested such a tattoo might work better at the top of his arm, or on his calf, but no, he wanted it to be full-chest. So be it."

As they were finishing covering his latest tattoo with vaseline and a bandage wrap, the news on the radio mentioned that the EU might consider extending to a date beyond the 31st January, to which Williams replied, "Oh for fu…"


----------



## Magyarmum

Update : Even more mysterious?

https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/23...-from-bu?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&

*Truck with 39 dead bodies believed to have travelled from Zeebrugge*


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## Lurcherlad

No - just tell me when we’re actually OUT!


----------



## Snoringbear

Looks like they’ll be an extension, another referendum which will result in stay in the EU and then we can all put this behind us.


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> Looks like they'll be an extension, another referendum which will result in stay in the EU and then we can all put this behind us.


I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that there'll be another referendum from?

Facts to back that statement would be appreciated, otherwise it's just your opinion

As to an extension, this is the opinion from Euronews


----------



## Guest

I have heard nothing about a second referendum. There are suggestions there maybe a General Election in the United Kingdom in December time, which will be the first December General Election in the United Kingdom since 1910.

The European Union are planning to give a flexi extension until 31st January 2020 which means if the United Kingdom Parliament pass all the laws and new Withdrawal Agreement before this date and the European Union Parliament ratify it then the United Kingdom can leave before the 31st January 2020. If they don't then the United Kingdom is looking into the abyss again after this date because there is no guarantee of any further extensions. But, and this is a big but, France only want to give the United Kingdom a very short extension, Macron is not won over with the flexi extension. As of yet the European Union 27 leaders are not in full agreement of how long should be given.

There is no talk officially of any second referendum, so I do not know what your sources are for this.

Don't forget that a new European Parliament and Council take over on the 1st November 2019 and after the 31st January 2020 there is no guarantee any further extensions will be given as the new Council and Parliament may take a new view on things.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Update : Even more mysterious?
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/23...-from-bu?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&
> 
> *Truck with 39 dead bodies believed to have travelled from Zeebrugge*


Very sad news


----------



## cheekyscrip

I think the only way forward is the PV.
I don’t want Boris to wipe his gob with TWoTP anymore.

We have a deal. We can take it or not.
So if it is democracy le people decide.
People want the Deal, then Boris can carry on Brexit.
No. GE needed.

If people change their mind then Boris goes. 

But after 3.5 years and actual deal on the table people should be allowed to have a choice.

It is not the same referendum twice, it is completely different situation when we have some ideas about pros and cons in real terms.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> I think the only way forward is the PV.


What was the referendum in 2016? Oh yes a peoples vote.

The United Kingdom Parliament have no appetite for a second referendum as they have previously repeatedly voted it down in amendments and have infact passed the new European Union Withdrawal Agreement in its second reading recently.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> What was the referendum in 2016? Oh yes a peoples vote.
> 
> The United Kingdom Parliament have no appetite for a second referendum as they have previously repeatedly voted it down in amendments and have infact passed the new European Union Withdrawal Agreement in its second reading recently.


The problem is, though, a General Election is NOT the 'answer'.

A GE is supposed to be about party politics and policies, not a single issue. BoJo knows the public probably wouldn't vote for his deal (hence all the 'no PV/second referendum' rhetoric), but he also knows that in a GE a lot of people will vote Tory even if they don't want Brexit because this is a GE and not a referendum, so he figures he might stand a better chance with a GE as he might get his majority back and be able to force through whatever Brexit he likes and claim it was the will of the people because they voted for him in the GE.

The only sensible way to get a true representation from the electorate as to what they want for the next step of Brexit is to ask them specifically and independently in a manner uncontaminated by other issues. A GE isn't going to do that.


----------



## Guest

Macron is sticking to a short extension and insists that the extension should not go past 15th November 2019.

As I said before I feel that the United Kingdom Parliament will be left with the choice of this deal or no deal. The European 27 leaders are all not agreeing to this extension as they have done before with one voice.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Macron is sticking to a short extension and insists that the extension should not go past 15th November 2019.
> 
> As I said before I feel that the United Kingdom Parliament will be left with the choice of this deal or no deal. The European 27 leaders are all not agreeing to this extension as they have done before with one voice.


https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/e...nov-15-brexit-deadline-tests-1-16-vs-the-euro

*Pound Sterling Eyes Macron Call for Nov. 15 Brexit Deadline, Tests 1.16 vs. the Euro*

And by the way Macron isn't in France at present, he's on an official visit to La Reunion!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> A very early report said so, but now they are saying it's a difficult job to identify them; probably travelling without ID?


According to this morning's article in City AM they were Chinese, of whom 8 were women, but it still has to be confirmed

https://www.cityam.com/39-found-dead-in-essex-lorry-were-chinese-nationals/

*39 found dead in Essex lorry were Chinese nationals*


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> According to this morning's article in City AM they were Chinese, of whom 8 were women, but it still has to be confirmed
> 
> https://www.cityam.com/39-found-dead-in-essex-lorry-were-chinese-nationals/
> 
> *39 found dead in Essex lorry were Chinese nationals*


 I thought that security had been ''heightened'' to include X-raying of lorries? In addition to this, I read that the ''heightened security'' at Dover/Calais was obviously a concern for drivers with illegal immigrants and they were using smaller, quieter routes where they know they can slip through unchecked..


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> Still on TV, amusingly enough, and still giving 31st as the ''big day''. Actually, Hallowe'en is quite an appropriate date in view of the current spectacular shitfest, I think.


The Legislation website still says the 31st too:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/859/regulation/2/made


----------



## Guest

Emmanuel Macron is sticking to his guns about only offering the United Kingdom a very short extension. The European Union 27 leaders are therefore not in unison about the extension that should be granted to the United Kingdom. The European President Donald Tusk is going to call an emergency summit on Monday so leaders can meet face to face to thrash this new extension out. The United Kingdom may not get the extension it wants and only get an extension until the 15th November 2019. France are playing hardball.


----------



## Guest

Johnson is pushing for a General Election on 12th December 2019. He is tabling a motion on Monday.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Johnson is pushing for a General Election on 12th December 2019. He is tabling a motion on Monday.


Two words BLACK MAIL :Rage


----------



## Elles

Why is it blackmail? We should have already had an election.

The letter asked for an extension to the end of January. So we can have our election and you get your chance to vote for one of the remainer parties.

A general election in December will encourage the Eu to give the January extension wouldn’t it?


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> Two words BLACK MAIL :Rage


Not so long ago the European 27 leaders said that the United Kingdom could only get an extension to article 50 if the United Kingdom had either a General Election or Second Referendum. The United Kingdoms Prime Minister has chosen a General Election. I do believe he has been in talks with the Labour Party leader as well about this so this must be the route that will get most support. The United Kingdom Parliament has repeatedly rejected motions for a second referendum. So how is this blackmail?


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Johnson is pushing for a General Election on 12th December 2019. He is tabling a motion on Monday.


:Jawdrop

Why is Macron insisting the extension is only to November and not January ?

I got the feeling that the other leaders would be ok about an extension and not insist on a GE or another referendum


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Emmanuel Macron is sticking to his guns about only offering the United Kingdom a very short extension. The European Union 27 leaders are therefore not in unison about the extension that should be granted to the United Kingdom. The European President Donald Tusk is going to call an emergency summit on Monday so leaders can meet face to face to thrash this new extension out. The United Kingdom may not get the extension it wants and only get an extension until the 15th November 2019. France are playing hardball.


He's in a bad temper 'cos he's just arrived in Reunion and the natives are revolting!

He's not a very happy chappy

http://en.rfi.fr/economy/20191023-f...n-amid-protests-over-cost-living-yellow-vests

*France's Macron arrives in Réunion amid protests over cost of living*


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Jawdrop
> 
> Why is Macron insisting the extension is only to November and not January ?


Because he wants us out.

France will be second strongest country in EU and have much more power?

Germany prefers us in EU.
De Gaulle never wanted us in , Churchill did.

If our eternal rival wants us of the picture...

I guess it is not for our best interest...


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.politico.eu/article/bor...il&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-c8e7cf18d4-190460357

*Boris Johnson calls for UK election on December 12*


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Because he wants us out.
> 
> France will be second strongest country in EU and have much more power?
> 
> Germany prefers us in EU.
> De Gaulle never wanted us in , Churchill did.
> 
> If our eternal rival wants us of the picture...
> 
> I guess it is not for our best interest...


Macron has delusions of grandeur!

Now that Merkel is on the way out he wants to take over the EU as chief panjandrum.

He'll probably change his name to Napoleon!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> *Why is it blackmail?* We should have already had an election.
> 
> The letter asked for an extension to the end of January. So we can have our election and you get your chance to vote for one of the remainer parties.
> 
> A general election in December will encourage the Eu to give the January extension wouldn't it?


Because says there can only have an extension to debate the deal if there is an election on December 12th.


----------



## KittenKong

Getting beyond stupid now isn't it. A GE will probably result in another hung Parliament.

Why are they so determined to deliver their interpretation of a gerrymandered narrow referendum result without putting the deal back to the people?The results might surprise them.

As May found out, Johnson's deal is equally unpopular amongst both camps for obviously very different reasons.

Only solution- Put it to the people asking to 1). Revoke A50 and forget the whole bloody thing, 2). Accept the deal or 3). Leave the EU abruptly with no deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> Because says there can only have an extension to debate the deal if there is an election on December 12th.


He looks like he cannot wait to see Britain crumble.
Election will just bring more division.

GE should not be just about Brexit.

Therefore not until this is over.

Tell one thing: those who say they think Brexit is worth all those lost jobs and damage to economy will sing different tune when we will be a poorer country, with very limited budget and all BoJo promises will be just "on the buses".

Recession means less money for everything.

Except the privileged ones who can play against the pound.

Basically Pigs win.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Getting beyond stupid now isn't it. A GE will probably result in another hung Parliament.
> 
> Why are they so determined to deliver their interpretation of a gerrymandered narrow referendum result without putting the deal back to the people?The results might surprise them.
> 
> As May found out, Johnson's deal is equally unpopular amongst both camps for obviously very different reasons.
> 
> Only solution- Put it to the people asking to 1). Revoke A50 and forget the whole bloody thing, 2). Accept the deal or 3). Leave the EU abruptly with no deal.


Deal or Remain. Suicide option should not be even contemplated.


----------



## Elles

At the moment the polls give Boris and the Conservatives a very comfortable majority and could give them the power they need to get Brexit done. If we don’t want brexit done, we will have a chance to vote in an alternative and send a message.

There aren’t going to be lost jobs over brexit and European countries inside the Eu are in/heading for recession.

People predicting the future are guessing and the naysayers have guessed wrong on just about every count so far. No one believes economists predicting doom, as they’ve been predicting doom since before the referendum. Just the act of having a referendum was predicted to bring the country to its knees, let alone every step since and it just hasn’t happened. 

Tbh not everyone cares about the economy. If you’re doing well you may want to maintain the status quo, but if you’re not, the economy worsening may give the better off a taste of what the lower rungs have been going through and shake things up a bit. So even if they are right, it’s not a priority for many. Getting out of the Eu is more important, for long term benefit and the opportunities leaving the Eu could lead to.


----------



## Elles

Suicide as a descriptive is a bit dramatic for leaving without a withdrawal deal and garnering a temporary free trade agreement the same day, as suggested by the Eu, if no deal does become the option. As mentioned by the remain camp, who complain bitterly about it, language is important.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> gerrymandered


In what way?



cheekyscrip said:


> Suicide option


A bit over-dramatic?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> :Jawdrop
> 
> Why is Macron insisting the extension is only to November and not January ?
> 
> I got the feeling that the other leaders would be ok about an extension and not insist on a GE or another referendum


Macron is frustrated with Brexit. The United Kingdom has already had 2 extensions and nothing has been acheived in the way of leaving the European Union. There has been nothing but chaos and lots of confusion over the United Kingdom saying it is leaving.

This latest request for an extension is being met with alot of caution from France.

All 27 European Union countries leaders have to agree to any extension but it isn't this time around.

The European Union won't keep extending article 50 for the sake of it. There has to be a good reason and they have repeadedly said a good reason would be a general election or second referendum would be acceptable.

Alot of hard work has taken place in other European countries to prepare for the United Kingdoms departure on the 31st October 2019 including hurrying through the new Withdrawal Agreement and now the United Kingdom wants more time, for what? What are further negotiations going to acheive or what are further delays going to acheive?


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Deal or Remain. Suicide option should not be even contemplated.


The "suicide option" part is way over the top for a no deal option.

At the moment there is no deal available because the United Kingdom Parliament cannot make up its mind and the European 27 leaders are being very cautious about giving an extension this time. The United Kingdom cannot remove no deal as an option because there is no deal currently available because the United Kingdom won't agree to one even though both the deals that have been negotiated are the United Kingdoms proposed deals that the European Union has amended and agreed to.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> He looks like he cannot wait to see Britain crumble.
> Election will just bring more division.
> 
> GE should not be just about Brexit.
> 
> Therefore not until this is over.
> 
> Tell one thing: those who say they think Brexit is worth all those lost jobs and damage to economy will sing different tune when we will be a poorer country, with very limited budget and all BoJo promises will be just "on the buses".
> 
> Recession means less money for everything.
> 
> Except the privileged ones who can play against the pound.
> 
> Basically Pigs win.


Thanks to the media, the 100,000 of thousands
who lost their jobs under Thatcher didn't stop them winning elections, even a landslide thanks to the Falklands.



cheekyscrip said:


> Deal or Remain. Suicide option should not be even contemplated.


Brexit shouldn't be contemplated at all. I'd prefer to see A50 revoked with the whole nightmare forgotten about if it was down to me.

But, if they are serious about uniting that deeply divided place this is one method. With a bit of luck the deal and no deal options would divide the pro Brexit vote!


----------



## KittenKong

Getting a lot of these ads while in Spain, on being connected to a Spanish WiFi source


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...opose-new-eu-commissioner-von-der-leyen-says/

*Brexit extension means UK must propose new EU Commissioner, von der Leyen says*


----------



## Cully

Just woke up to the latest extension news this morning. Nooooooooooo!!!:Arghh


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Getting a lot of these ads while in Spain, on being connected to a Spanish WiFi source
> View attachment 420478


Nothing unusual in that!:Jawdrop

We get something similar in Hungary as I expect they do in all EU countries


----------



## Guest

*Government pulls £100m no-deal 'Get Ready for Brexit' advertising campaign*

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews....dy-for-brexit-advertising-campaign-819592?amp


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Getting a lot of these ads while in Spain, on being connected to a Spanish WiFi source
> View attachment 420478


What's your point?


----------



## kimthecat

Cully said:


> Just woke up to the latest extension news this morning. Nooooooooooo!!!:Arghh


Has it been agreed yet?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Has it been agreed yet?


No.

The European 27 leaders are no waiting to see if the United Kingdom Parliament will agree to a General Election before deciding.


----------



## Guest

*Do you think the United Kingdom should be granted a 3rd extension?*

Personally my opinion is that the United Kingdom Parliament has had over 3 years to sort this out and therefore only a short technical extension should be given. They have passed the new Withdrawal Agreement in a second reading so the extension should only be to pass the Withdrawal Agreement in whatever stages are left in the United Kingdom Parliament and necessary United Kingdom laws to make it legal. It has been proven twice that the United Kingdom Parliament can move fast when they want something like when they passed the Benn act.

What else is there to negotiate with the European Union?


----------



## kimthecat

I dont know. I just want to bash my head against the wall everytime l see the word brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I dont know. I just want to bash my head against the wall everytime l see the word brexit.


You mean like this?


----------



## Guest

Michel Barnier has said the European 27 leaders are unable to make a decision on the length of an extension due to the United Kingdom Parliament debate on a General Election.


----------



## samuelsmiles3

saartje said:


> Michel Barnier has said the European 27 *leaders are unable to make a decision on *the length of an extension due to the United Kingdom Parliament debate on a General Election.


We don't need reminding of this after more than three years of getting nowhere.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> You mean like this?


:Hilarious Yes . I wish I was that slim !


----------



## Magyarmum

Two interesting articles which IMO question the future and integrity of the EU

https://www.politico.eu/article/urs...gn=fccb89c2a2-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_10_25_10_04

*Ursula von der Leyen struggles to stay in the saddle*

https://www.theweek.co.uk/103962/is...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

*Is the EU's enlargement dream over?*


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> What's your point?


Fairy obvious isn't it?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Fairy obvious isn't it?


No.:Yawn


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Yes . I wish I was that slim !


Be careful what you wish for, Kim: when we are living on dry bread - after B***** - you may well be! I am planning to eat my cats.:Cat


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Be careful what you wish for, Kim: when we are living on dry bread - after B***** - you may well be! I am planning to eat my cats.:Cat


Good job you've got cats 'cos I've a suspicion my dogs are planning to eat me:Arghh


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> Fairy obvious isn't it?


Nope. It's advice for people in Spain. In Spain.

I don't get your issue. Unless it's just the normal Brexit shouldn't be happening blah blah blah....


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Very sad news


I sincerely hope that the driver and the smugglers are prosecuted for murder and sent to prison for a very long time. It would send a strong message to not put living human beings in an airtight coffin. I knew I shouldn't have read the story, it's absolutely heartbreaking and there should be a special place in hell for people who think they deserve it for trying to get to Europe for a better future. It makes me really angry and I know there's no point.  Terrible.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I sincerely hope that the driver and the smugglers are prosecuted for murder


The driver arrested _on suspicion of murde_r and another couple _on suspicion of manslaughter._ I guess there is a whole chain of people involved.


----------



## KittenKong

MilleD said:


> Nope. It's advice for people in Spain. In Spain.
> 
> I don't get your issue. Unless it's just the normal Brexit shouldn't be happening blah blah blah....


This is unsolicited advertising, paid for by you and me, which is my point.

It's ramming Brexit down our throats, even when out of the UK


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is unsolicited advertising, paid for by you and me, which is my point.
> 
> It's ramming Brexit down our throats, even when out of the UK


No it's NOT!:Arghh

It's informing UK citizens who live in Spain permanently, about what they should do to ensure that after Brexit they can still live there legally:Banghead.

I daresay after Brexit you'll be the first one looking at the Government website to find out what you have to do in order to go to Spain on holiday:Grumpy


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> No it's NOT!:Arghh
> 
> It's informing UK citizens who live in Spain permanently, about what they should do to ensure that after Brexit they can still live there legally:Banghead.
> 
> I daresay after Brexit you'll be the first one looking at the Government website to find out what you have to do in order to go to Spain on holiday:Grumpy


What rubbish. This is* unsolicited *UK government advertising propaganda. It's all over bus shelters too.

People can of course look this up on a website as you say, if they wish to do so.

Hypocrisy, seeing you are not a UK taxpayer, then, there you go.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> The driver arrested _on suspicion of murde_r and another couple _on suspicion of manslaughter._ I guess there is a whole chain of people involved.


They now believe some of the victims are Vietnamese.

Sorry about the video being in French but I think it's fairly self explanatory.

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/r...time-prise-dans-un-trafic-humain_3675409.html

*Truck of horror: the tragic journey of a Vietnamese victim*


----------



## Guest

This get ready for Brexit campaign has been advertised in the Netherlands as well because alot United Kingdom citizens live over here like they do in Spain, Portugal, Hungary, France, Germany etc. It seems a certain person doesn't understand this. These are not propaganda or unsolicited it is to direct United Kingdom Citizens living in other European Countries to a United Kingdom government advisory website from what I have seen.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What rubbish. This is* unsolicited *UK government advertising propaganda. It's all over bus shelters too.
> 
> People can of course look this up on a website as you say, if they wish to do so.
> 
> Hypocrisy, seeing you are not a UK taxpayer, then, there you go.


Have you never been told that you should never assume?

Once again you're wrong because as it happens I do pay tax in the UK and have done despite living overseas for many years!

Want to see my tax returns?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What rubbish. This is* unsolicited *UK government advertising propaganda. It's all over bus shelters too.
> 
> People can of course look this up on a website as you say, if they wish to do so.
> 
> Hypocrisy, seeing you are not a UK taxpayer, then, there you go.


An unsolicited piece of EU propaganda which the UK government helped to pay for ..................










Pass the pepper and help prevent obesity! More @ http://epfacebook.eu/qk5M


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> This is unsolicited advertising, paid for by you and me, which is my point.
> 
> It's ramming Brexit down our throats, even when out of the UK


:Hilarious Just because you dont want to be kept informed doesnt mean to say other people dont.

Its the Goverment's duty to keep the public informed about events.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Just because you dont want to be kept informed doesnt mean to say other people dont.
> 
> *Its the Goverment's duty to keep the public informed about events*.


It's a pity they tell so many lies then!

They have told so many over the last few years, why should we believe them now.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's a pity they tell so many lies then!
> 
> They have told so many over the last few years, why should we believe them now.


Oh I see!

As a UK citizen living in an EU country which in my case is Hungary, I've found the UK Government directives advising what one should do in order to continue living and working in the country, to be factual and accurate.

In fact no lies or bull**** whatsoever.and the advice corresponds to the advice given by the Hungarian Government on their Brexit website.

Brexit can arrive whenever it wants because I've followed the advice and have all my paperwork in order.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> *Do you think the United Kingdom should be granted a 3rd extension?*
> 
> Personally my opinion is that the United Kingdom Parliament has had over 3 years to sort this out and therefore only a short technical extension should be given. They have passed the new Withdrawal Agreement in a second reading so the extension should only be to pass the Withdrawal Agreement in whatever stages are left in the United Kingdom Parliament and necessary United Kingdom laws to make it legal. It has been proven twice that the United Kingdom Parliament can move fast when they want something like when they passed the Benn act.
> 
> What else is there to negotiate with the European Union?


Over 3 year

*Over 3 years to sort this mess out, so my opinion is. this government can't do the job they started. So the best thing to do is give another party a chance. Let's face it, they can't do any worse.*


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Just because you dont want to be kept informed doesnt mean to say other people dont.
> 
> Its the Goverment's duty to keep the public informed about events.


I find it incredible how anyone could defend an uneccesarry £100m of taxpayer's money being spent on these adverts. These are, indeed adverts with questionable accuracy.

There was an uproar when Cameron arranged those leaflets costing £9m in 2016. I didn't even support that.

Now, some reports of the government scrapping their commemorative 50p, (or should that be 10/-?), Brexit promotion coins costing £13m.

Has anyone bothered to ask how much Brexit is costing to isolate us from the rest of Europe who're now rivals rather than allies?

I said from day one, I wouldn't trust this incompetent bunch of upper class idiots, even if I supported Brexit.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I find it incredible how anyone could defend an uneccesarry £100m of taxpayer's money being spent on these adverts. *These are, indeed adverts with questionable accuracy*.
> 
> There was an uproar when Cameron arranged those leaflets costing £9m in 2016. I didn't even support that.
> 
> Now, some reports of the government scrapping their commemorative 50p, (or should that be 10/-?), Brexit promotion coins costing £13m.
> 
> Has anyone bothered to ask how much Brexit is costing to isolate us from the rest of Europe who're now rivals rather than allies?
> 
> I said from day one, I wouldn't trust this incompetent bunch of upper class idiots, even if I supported Brexit.


So now you're an expert on the rules and regulations related to residency of all the 27 EU countries?

Silly us and silly government for not knowing that.

Had we done so we could have just asked you and saved ourselves a lot of time and effort :Arghh


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> There was an uproar when Cameron arranged those leaflets costing £9m in 2016.


That was because even people such as I, whose maths is pretty awful, managed to work out that they must have cost three times as much. The postage alone was going to be £9million. We were told that 27 million homes received them [many of whom sent them back].


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

Im going to refrain from doing an eye roll here


----------



## Elles

The actual government can’t get an election, but now the SNP and the Lib dems want to force one, 3 days earlier than when Boris wants one. It’s bloody ridiculous. Do we actually have a government? That’ll be a no. What are the Lib dems up to? Will that give them time to debate over Boris’ Bill, or whether to give 16 year olds the vote?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> The actual government can't get an election, but now the SNP and the Lib dems want to force one, 3 days earlier than when Boris wants one. It's bloody ridiculous. Do we actually have a government? That'll be a no. What are the Lib dems up to? Will that give them time to debate over Boris' Bill, or whether to give 16 year olds the vote?


God knows: the more I read, the more I think the circus must have come to town.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> God knows: the more I read, the more I think *the circus must have come to town.*


It came to town on the 23 June 2016 and never left.


----------



## Magyarmum

On Wednesday experts from across Whitehall visited Budapest to update representatives of around 100 companies and trade associations about measures at UK borders in case the UK leaves the EU without a deal, and how businesses can best prepare for that. Ambassador Lindsay briefed the audience about the state of play of the negotiations after which experts talked about customs procedures, transport requirements and transport of high risk food/feed, animals and plants, and representatives of the Border Force and Eurotunnel also gave an update on their preparations.

Despite what certain PF members might think I'm pretty sure meetings like this are being held in all 27 EU countries. I'm also pretty certain that the companies attending these meetings don't think it's a waste of time or of government money


----------



## Snoringbear

I really don’t want to have a GE. Just more time wasting. It’ll doubtless end up in a hung parliament, with no clear way forward. Much better to have another referendum whatever the criteria and have parliament implement it.


----------



## Snoringbear

However, it very much depends on what you have on a confirmatory referendum. As it stands there are three options. No deal, agreed deal and remain. Could end up with remain winning the greater majority of the three, but having an overall result that has both leave options as a majority proportion of the vote.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think a general election would be a bad idea, as people wouldn't be voting on the important things like schools, NHS they would be voting on Brexit that's why a referendum would be better, we would only voting on Brexit.


----------



## Snoringbear

Exactly. It would just become a single issue vote.


----------



## Elles

We already had a referendum, they are costly and 3/4 of the government don’t take any notice of them. Have a Brexit GE, then a couple of years later a domestic GE. We need brexit settled either way, but there’s no one in charge who can do it. A second referendum is not just pointless, it’s anti democratic regardless of the result, as they haven’t actioned the first one.

If leave did win a second referendum, Jo Swinson and others, including the SNP, have said they wouldn’t honour the result, but will continue to block brexit and push to remain in the Eu. Swinson wants a General election so that she can be PM and remain in the Eu. I think it was Andrew Marr who interviewed her on it.

So a second referendum would be pointless, as MPs would still get to vote on the result and some are already saying that a referendum wouldn’t change anything. It’s the Lib Dems, SNP and other Remainers saying they wouldn’t honour the result of a second referendum if leave won it, that is preventing the second referendum they said they wanted. 

I didn’t mind either way, so long as it settled brexit, but now I see it wouldn’t, so I can’t see the point.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think we know a lot more about what will happen when we leave, what we gain and loss, we had know idea of what was going to happen when we vote 3 years ago.


----------



## Elles

Boris and his Tories currently have a 16 point lead over Labour in the polls. If the election gives him the majority, the people will have spoken and it means Brexit. A lot of Remainers holding primarily leave seats will lose their job and they know it. They got in last time by being liked and saying they would honour the result. Now it’s clear they won’t, they’ll get dumped imo. A GE now is the worst thing for those still hoping to stay in the Eu. Far worse than a second referendum, where the result can continue to be blocked, or argued. If Remainers lose their seats, there’ll be nothing they can do. 

My local MP Ben Bradshaw has never pretended to be anything he’s not, a remainer and my area is Remain, over 55%, probably because it’s a university city. I don’t doubt that Ben will keep his seat, so for me personally, referendum, or election, it’s probably irrelevant. Ben isn’t a Corbyn fan, so he has that going for him too. I don’t think we have a conservative candidate and the Lib Dem is a University graduate in his early 20s so he’ll go down a storm with the working people. :Hilarious I don’t think our Ben needs to worry.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> we had know idea of what was going to happen when we vote 3 years ago.


Well we thought that if the leave vote won we'd leave the Eu within 2 years, if not sooner, so I'll grant you that. :Hilarious

All the polls point towards a heavy brexit win, not even marginal now. Most, like me, think we shouldn't have had the referendum when we did, but now we have, I'm sorry but although I voted to stay in, I think we should now leave as requested by the people in 2016, so I would vote leave if we had a second vote. Nothing has been anything like as bad as predicted, we're doing better than Europe, so why worry about it? We don't get much news from Europe, they have riots, recessions and uprisings and the Eu's new leader is already in trouble. Better we get out while we still can.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Boris and his Tories currently have a 16 point lead over Labour in the polls. If the election gives him the majority, the people will have spoken and it means Brexit. A lot of Remainers holding primarily leave seats will lose their job and they know it. They got in last time by being liked and saying they would honour the result. Now it's clear they won't, they'll get dumped imo. A GE now is the worst thing for those still hoping to stay in the Eu. Far worse than a second referendum, where the result can continue to be blocked, or argued. If Remainers lose their seats, there'll be nothing they can do.
> 
> My local MP Ben Bradshaw has never pretended to be anything he's not, a remainer and my area is Remain, over 55%, probably because it's a university city. I don't doubt that Ben will keep his seat, so for me personally, referendum, or election, it's probably irrelevant. Ben isn't a Corbyn fan, so he has that going for him too. I don't think we have a conservative candidate and the Lib Dem is a University graduate in his early 20s so he'll go down a storm with the working people. :Hilarious I don't think our Ben needs to worry.


That's what was said when Theresa May called a snap GE. She had a greater lead in the opinion polls than Johnson currently has, yet cost the party their majority.

If the same thing should happen, what will happen then?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Well we thought that if the leave vote won we'd leave the Eu within 2 years, if not sooner, so I'll grant you that. :Hilarious
> 
> All the polls point towards a heavy brexit win, not even marginal now. Most, like me, think we shouldn't have had the referendum when we did, but now we have, I'm sorry but although I voted to stay in, I think we should now leave as requested by the people in 2016, so I would vote leave if we had a second vote. Nothing has been anything like as bad as predicted, we're doing better than Europe, so why worry about it? We don't get much news from Europe, they have riots, recessions and uprisings and the Eu's new leader is already in trouble. Better we get out while we still can.


17+m against 16+m of the people who voted hardly constitutes a huge majority in support of Brexit!

And most opinion polls show Remain leading nowadays, but you wouldn't see that in the Mail or similar papers with polls amongst their readers.

As for the rest of your comments, words fail me to be honest but I'll leave it there.









https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/sick-gofundme-page-pay-murder-20732052


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> 17+m against 16+m of the people who voted hardly constitutes a huge majority in support of Brexit!
> 
> And most opinion polls show Remain leading nowadays, but you wouldn't see that in the Mail or similar papers with polls amongst their readers.
> 
> As for the rest of your comments, words fail me to be honest but I'll leave it there.
> 
> View attachment 420722
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/sick-gofundme-page-pay-murder-20732052


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit-ref...campaign=iNews - Daily RSS Newsletter&utm_sou

*Over half of voters think Brexit referendum should never have been called*

And a very good reason not to believe everything you see on Facebook

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49902321

*How death threats spread in pro- and anti-Brexit Facebook groups*


----------



## Guest

The press is often as bad as the people in the street or on other social media sites like facebook and twitter etc. Really they should not publish stories about the death threats as it advertises it. It is wrong to threaten anyone with violence and death threats. I read that MPs had to have police escorts home from the Saturday sitting of Parliament in the United Kingdom due to people shouting at them and making threats from the remain supporters outside of the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Guest

Hopefully MPs will make a decision tomorrow if there is to be a General Election in the United Kingdom? Time is ticking very fast now as the 31st October is Thursday this coming week, the day the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. The European Union 27 leaders are not going to make a decision on an extension to article 50 until a decision has been made on if the United Kingdom is having a General Election. The United Kingdom is dangerously close to crashing out of the European Union. 4 days is all that is left in law at the moment. Officially at the moment the United Kingdom leaves the European Union by law at 11pm (GMT) on Thursday 31st October 2019.


----------



## Elles

Theresa May had a 10 point lead before she called a GE. Her election wasn’t just about Brexit though, people thought brexit was done bar the signing and Jeremy Corbyn went all out gaining support from naive students. Don’t forget the disastrous dementia tax too. 

The Lib dems hope to do the same as Labour this time around. It’s being said that they want an election 3 days earlier than Boris, because students will still be at uni and voting in university cities. They hope to sway them towards Remain and the Lib Dems. 

I do think that Boris should take care that his election doesn’t backfire, but I don’t see he has a choice. Parliament is currently blocking everything the actual government want to do, so he is powerless without winning an election.

We won’t crash out without a deal. We’ll simply leave the Eu on WTO terms, with precautions and agreements in place, prepared in the event we do leave without a withdrawal deal.

Words like surrender treaty and crash are meant to appeal to the emotions and not logic, so imo should be avoided on both sides, although I can be guilty of it myself. :Bag


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Hopefully MPs will make a decision tomorrow if there is to be a General Election in the United Kingdom? Time is ticking very fast now as the 31st October is Thursday this coming week, the day the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. The European Union 27 leaders are not going to make a decision on an extension to article 50 until a decision has been made on if the United Kingdom is having a General Election. *The United Kingdom is dangerously close to crashing out of the European Union. *4 days is all that is left in law at the moment. Officially at the moment the United Kingdom leaves the European Union by law at 11pm (GMT) on Thursday 31st October 2019.


Not going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit-referendum-shouldnt-have-been-called-voters-poll-says-820492?utm_campaign=iNews - Daily RSS Newsletter&utm_sou
> 
> *Over half of voters think Brexit referendum should never have been called*
> 
> And a very good reason not to believe everything you see on Facebook
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49902321
> 
> *How death threats spread in pro- and anti-Brexit Facebook groups*


Ditto about believing what the BBC say. You might as well share an article from the Daily Mail etc.

I've* never *seen a single death threat towards a single brexit supporter, politician or otherwise. I would not condone it if I had done. I was at the 19/10/19 London event. Not a single placard was deemed to incite violence nor hatred. Compare that to pro Brexit demos, showing a noose and "This is for traitors"....

This is another attempt at turning the tables, recalling the cries of, "The Remain campaign lied too".

The Gina Miller issue was reported in other papers in addition to the mirror.
Thankfully, we don't get the usual BBC government propaganda page here in Spain, at least on the homepage which is the World Service version.

Tweet of the day:


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> Not going to happen.


You sound very confident.
Let us look at the situation. Macron would rather give the United Kingdom a very short delay or no delay at all and the rest of the European Union leaders want a flexi extension. All 27 leaders have to agree together (they cannot over rule each other), at the moment this is not happening. In the United Kingdom Parliament MPs cannot agree to disagree and no decision is coming soon on what happens next. I see that the Government has put no deal preparations into action today with Operation Brock.

Currently the European Union 27 cannot agree an extension and the United Kingdom Parliament don't know what to do eg General Election or not.

11pm Thursday will soon come.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> though I voted to stay in, I think we should now leave as requested by the people in 2016, so I would vote leave if we had a second vote.


I know several remainers who say the same as they are so disgusted at what's been going on; others who say: ''Let's just leave and get this pantomime over with''. Others who don't give a damn what happens as long as it's over, and others who say they would not bother to vote again as there's apparently no point.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Ditto about believing what the BBC say. You might as well share an article from the Daily Mail etc.
> 
> I've* never *seen a single death threat towards a single brexit supporter, politician or otherwise. I would not condone it if I had done. I was at the 19/10/19 London event. Not a single placard was deemed to incite violence nor hatred. Compare that to pro Brexit demos, showing a noose and "This is for traitors"....
> 
> This is another attempt at turning the tables, recalling the cries of, "The Remain campaign lied too".
> 
> The Gina Miller issue was reported in other papers in addition to the mirror.
> Thankfully, we don't get the usual BBC government propaganda page here in Spain, at least on the homepage which is the World Service version.
> 
> Tweet of the day:
> 
> View attachment 420777


So having said all that you then go and post something from Twitter!


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> hardly constitutes a huge majority in support of Brexit!


It was a majority; that was the result. What part of that is difficult to understand? And if there's another, with a similar majority (either way) - then what? Another three years (minimum) arsing around? I can't wait.


----------



## Magyarmum

Just arrived in my inbox ......

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/...ves-way-on-brexit-weakened-at-the-polls-mega/

*POLITICO Brussels Playbook, presented by BP: Scoop: France yields on Brexit - Weakened at the polls - MEGA*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> It was a majority; that was the result. What part of that is difficult to understand? And if there's another, with a similar majority (either way) - then what? Another three years (minimum) arsing around? I can't wait.


Yes, there was a majority, I think now we know more about leaving and how it's going to affect us, we need a another vote on what is going to happen when we leave and if we agree with the deal BJ has got.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> You sound very confident.
> Let us look at the situation. Macron would rather give the United Kingdom a very short delay or no delay at all and the rest of the European Union leaders want a flexi extension. All 27 leaders have to agree together (they cannot over rule each other), at the moment this is not happening. In the United Kingdom Parliament MPs cannot agree to disagree and no decision is coming soon on what happens next. I see that the Government has put no deal preparations into action today with Operation Brock.
> 
> Currently the European Union 27 cannot agree an extension and the United Kingdom Parliament don't know what to do eg General Election or not.
> 
> 11pm Thursday will soon come.


Well yes of course Thursday will come soon of that we can at least be sure but it appears the EU have just allowed an extension until 31st January so Happy Paws was indeed correct to say no deal would not happen on Thursday 31st October 2019


----------



## Magyarmum

3dogs2cats said:


> Well yes of course Thursday will come soon of that we can at least be sure but it appears the EU have just allowed an extension until 31st January so Happy Paws was indeed correct to say no deal would not happen on Thursday 31st October 2019


Just come through on France24 Breaking News

https://www.france24.com/en/breakin...cil-president-tusk?xtor=EPR-300-[Breaking]-20

*EU approves Brexit deadline extension to January 31, says EU Council president Tusk*


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Well yes of course Thursday will come soon of that we can at least be sure but it appears the EU have just allowed an extension until 31st January so Happy Paws was indeed correct to say no deal would not happen on Thursday 31st October 2019


This was not the case a few hours ago though was it. I was saying what I said because it was still up in the air.


----------



## Guest

There are conditions attached to this flexi extension. No renegotiations for another deal and the United Kingdom needs to have an ambassador in the European Union until it leaves the European Union and the United Kingdom is expected to pass this deal before the 31st January 2020 from what I understand. The United Kingdom can leave before the 31st January 2020 when this deal has been ratified by the United Kingdom Parliament.


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*The BBC vox pop moron's guide to the general election*
25th October 2019









*ARE you the sort of person the BBC interviews in shopping precincts during the day for your banal opinions? Here moron Norman Steele gives his advice on voting in a December election.*

*Base your vote on 'common sense'*

Not the sort of common sense that says 'I should stop buying lottery tickets because I've won nowt in 20 years'. No, the sort that says, 'Nobody can tell what will happen in the future, so let's give Brexit a whirl!'

*Vote for some totally irrelevant reason*

Was a policeman once a bit rude to you? Do you find Eddie Izzard unsettling? Have local roadworks complicated your journey to Asda? Have a good fume about these and vote for whoever you wrongly imagine will do something about them.

*Do not read or watch anything vaguely intelligent*

The Daily Express and your local newspaper are the only information sources you need for a general election. If someone suggests something more balanced, just say "They're all biased!" and get back to reading dubious Facebook posts claiming Jeremy Corbyn was in the IRA.

*Use your superficial prejudices*

Is Jo Swinson a bit young to be prime minister? Do you not like Keir Starmer's hair? These are sound and valid reasons on which to base your vote.

*Complain politicians are 'all the same' then vote for the most obvious charlatan*

You should firmly believe that all politicians are liars and crooks, a view many people will sympathise with. However when it comes to voting, completely forget this and vote for an obvious chancer like Boris or Farage because, as is well-known, 'Britain's full'.


----------



## Elles

Is anyone actually surprised by the extension?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Is anyone actually surprised by the extension?


No and this is why..................... Whilst ever the EU allows an extension there's always the hope that the UK will revoke Article 50!

https://www.news.com.au/world/europ...s/news-story/5a2b387549e9c4906da3739c1fbcd620

*EU agrees to postpone Britain's Brexit divorce for three months*

The French minister for European Affairs earlier said she didn't know when Brexit would happen, insisting Britain could still backpedal on its decision to leave the bloc.

Speaking on France Info radio, Amelie de Montchalin said it was still possible for Britain to revoke Article 50, meaning the UK would remain in the EU and cancel Brexit.

"The prime minister can pick up his phone and call Brussels to say: "I stop everything," she said.


----------



## kimthecat

Why do the LIb Dems want the election three days earlier than the date the Tories want . IS it their Christmas party or summat? 

Spain using rubber bullets against the Catalonians


----------



## Elles

A number of reasons are being suggested. 

One is that students are still at uni and there were some shenanigans in 2017 with students getting two votes, one at home and one at uni. Students and academics are more likely to vote for Lib dems and against brexit. It is also suggested that is one reason for not agreeing to voters’ ID cards. That and that some proxy voting has been less than honest and certain interested parties want to keep it that way.

Another reason is, as I understand it, that parliament would have to be dissolved before Boris’ agreement has been debated and voted on. When Parliament is dissolved for a GE, all outstanding business is simply dropped. Whoever got in would have to start over. 

Boris’ date would give them the timeframe as amended and get students back home, thus voting in their home towns, not university areas (unless that is home ofc) and less chance of shenanigans.

otoh a later date would give the opportunity to pass a new law giving 16-18 year olds and Eu nationals the vote.

Now that the Eu has granted a 3 month extension, it’ll be interesting to see if they now hold off on election ambitions, turn down Boris’ date and start planning for a further extension and their new laws put through, or press on and achieve their Monday the 9th election.


----------



## stuaz

As I know we all love things posted from social media on here, I saw this and it made me chuckle.

From the internet:

"I’m not saying there wasn’t a democratic mandate for Brexit at the time. I’m just saying if I narrowly decided to order fish at a restaurant that was known for chicken, but said it was happy to offer fish, and so far I’ve been waiting three hours, and two chefs who promised to cook the fish had quit, and the third one is promising to deliver the fish in the next five minutes whether it’s cooked or not, or indeed still alive, and all the waiting staff have spent the last few hours arguing amongst themselves about whether I wanted battered cod, grilled salmon, jellied eels or dolphin kebabs, and if large parts of the restaurant appeared to be on fire but no-one was paying attention to it because they were all arguing about fish, I would quite like, just once, to be asked if I definitely still wanted the fish."


----------



## Elles

stuaz said:


> As I know we all love things posted from social media on here, I saw this and it made me chuckle.
> 
> From the internet:
> 
> "I'm not saying there wasn't a democratic mandate for Brexit at the time. I'm just saying if I narrowly decided to order fish at a restaurant that was known for chicken, but said it was happy to offer fish, and so far I've been waiting three hours, and two chefs who promised to cook the fish had quit, and the third one is promising to deliver the fish in the next five minutes whether it's cooked or not, or indeed still alive, and all the waiting staff have spent the last few hours arguing amongst themselves about whether I wanted battered cod, grilled salmon, jellied eels or dolphin kebabs, and if large parts of the restaurant appeared to be on fire but no-one was paying attention to it because they were all arguing about fish, I would quite like, just once, to be asked if I definitely still wanted the fish."


The problem is they don't have any fish, don't have a clue how to cook it if they did and assumed that you'd want the chicken when they offered you the fish. Ever since then they've been trying to persuade you that you didn't really want the fish anyway. The restaurant is run by Basil Fawlty of course.

Personally I'd go to a vegan restaurant anyway, not one where the staff think dolphin is a fish.


----------



## stuaz

Elles said:


> The problem is they don't have any fish, don't have a clue how to cook it if they did and assumed that you'd want the chicken when they offered you the fish. Ever since then they've been trying to persuade you that you didn't really want the fish anyway. The restaurant is run by Basil Fawlty of course.
> 
> Personally I'd go to a vegan restaurant anyway, not one where the staff think dolphin is a fish.


To be honest I would quite like a nice bit of steak but then I'm not talking about Brexit anymore!... moving on...


----------



## kimthecat

So the government won the vote by a big majority but it wasnt a big enough majority so no election yet.https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAJuJL2?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare


----------



## KittenKong

The real Prime Minister is behind.

I've had a brilliant birthday!
:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Oh you;re a Scorpio , that explains it!. My birthday was last week 

Happy Birthday .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So the government won the vote by a big majority but it wasnt a big enough majority so no election yet.https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAJuJL2?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare


2/3rds of a majority needed under the Fixed Terms act.

Yet, he's going full Theresa May by calling for another vote apparently.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Birthday KittenKong and Happy belated Birthday Kimthecat!


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> New Is anyone actually surprised by the extension?


 Not surprised by owt, to be honest!


----------



## KittenKong

Thank you!


----------



## Calvine

@KittenKong and @kimthecat: Happy Birthday (belatedly) to both of you.


----------



## Magyarmum

@KittenKong and @kimthecat


----------



## Happy Paws2

Happy belated Birthday wishes KittenKong and kimthecat hope you both enjoyed your day.


----------



## Guest

Gelukkige verjaardag (Happy Birthday) @kimthecat and @KittenKong Sorry I missed it.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> *The Daily Mash*
> 
> *The BBC vox pop moron's guide to the general election*
> 
> Do you find Eddie Izzard unsettling?


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> View attachment 420882
> 
> Gelukkige verjaardag (Happy Birthday) @kimthecat and @KittenKong Sorry I missed it.


Thank you everyone for the birthday wishes.
saartje , you didnt miss it as I didnt mention it


----------



## kimthecat

Corbyn agrees to GE as it seems no deal is off the table.


ETA Brenda is trending on Twitter. I wonder what she will say this time about another GE?


----------



## Elles

Nothing has changed since yesterday when he turned it down.  What is he on. 

Apparently the Lib Dem/SNP alliance has proposed an amendment allowing 16 year olds and Eu nationals to vote, but asked Bercow to refuse it, as they don’t want their buddies who oppose it to look bad.

I don’t know if that’s true though, I’m rumourmongering and it could be fake news. :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Nothing has changed since yesterday when he turned it down.  What is he on.
> 
> Apparently the Lib Dem/SNP alliance has proposed an amendment allowing 16 year olds and Eu nationals to vote, but asked Bercow to refuse it, as they don't want their buddies who oppose it to look bad.
> 
> I don't know if that's true though, I'm rumourmongering and it could be fake news. :Hilarious


My theory is the Russians have tampered with our water supply and the whole country has been hallucinating the last four years . :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

So the United Kingdom is having a General Election. Hurray the MPs have finally decided to agree on something at last.

Perhaps Corbyn realised after saying he wanted a General Election multiple times over the last 3 years that he should back this Government bill going through Parliament today?


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> So the United Kingdom is having a General Election. Hurray the MPs have finally decided to agree on something at last.
> 
> Perhaps Corbyn realised after saying he wanted a General Election multiple times over the last 3 years that he should back this Government bill going through Parliament today?


The vote will take place about 17.45 tonight . I assume it will pass !


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...n-to-eu-is-set-to-soar/?utm_source=newsletter

*Brexit and new budget rules mean Dutch contribution to EU is set to soar*


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...n-to-eu-is-set-to-soar/?utm_source=newsletter
> 
> *Brexit and new budget rules mean Dutch contribution to EU is set to soar*


Yes we are aware that our economy will be hit here in the Netherlands as the Netherlands will have to pay more into the European Union budget.

Germany is going to be hit hard as well, I thought I heard they have gone into recession (I maybe wrong) because of the American/China trade war plus there share of the European Unions budget will be high.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The vote will take place about 17.45 tonight . I assume it will pass !


Apparently, it's since been reported Labour have issued a clause that'll allow 16 and 17 year olds and EU citizens with settled status the right to vote.

Reportedly, Johnson said he'll retract the December GE if this passes.

Then, who would be running scared?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Again I disgusted to how the PM and tory MPs walk out when Ian Blackford SNP gets up to speak, it's bad manners, the PM should be there to answer his questions. It just sums up what they really think about other opinions.


----------



## Elles

But you’re not disgusted when the speaker breaks years of tradition, walks straight past his seat and refuses to acknowledge the government? A speaker who is supposedly an unbiased referee? A speaker who told students he voted remain, talks to the Eu about how to block brexit and drives a car with bollox to brexit on it, regardless of whose car it’s supposed to be. Barely gets a mention. 

The SNP are directly challenging the government, I agree that Boris should stay. Corbyn wasn’t particularly complimentary either, I don’t think Ian Blackford has much support in the commons. If Scotland get independence and stay in the Eu, what will happen to the border? 

Someone has proposed that we all get the day off on Election Day and Corbyn supports this. Hospital and emergency staff, the police, ambulance service and various others won’t get the day off, but businesses are expected to close for one of the busiest days of the year, in the run up to Christmas and just before many close for the Christmas break? People aren’t capable of voting outside work hours these days? Do we really need public holidays for General elections? 

If we do, aren’t things like public holidays and giving votes to 16 year olds, Eu nationals and ex pats regardless of how long they lived abroad, rather larger issues and more complicated than can be covered by an amendment a few weeks before we hold an election? I think we should have a referendum if they want to lower the voting age.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> But you're not disgusted when the speaker breaks years of tradition, walks straight past his seat and refuses to acknowledge the government? A speaker who is supposedly an unbiased referee? A speaker who told students he voted remain, talks to the Eu about how to block brexit and drives a car with bollox to brexit on it, regardless of whose car it's supposed to be. Barely gets a mention.
> 
> The SNP are directly challenging the government, I agree that Boris should stay. Corbyn wasn't particularly complimentary either, I don't think Ian Blackford has much support in the commons. If Scotland get independence and stay in the Eu, what will happen to the border?
> 
> Someone has proposed that we all get the day off on Election Day and Corbyn supports this. Hospital and emergency staff, the police, ambulance service and various others won't get the day off, but businesses are expected to close for one of the busiest days of the year, in the run up to Christmas and just before many close for the Christmas break? People aren't capable of voting outside work hours these days? Do we really need public holidays for General elections?
> 
> If we do, aren't things like public holidays and giving votes to 16 year olds, Eu nationals and ex pats regardless of how long they lived abroad, rather larger issues and more complicated than can be covered by an amendment a few weeks before we hold an election? I think we should have a referendum if they want to lower the voting age.


Were ex pats mentioned? I only heard Corbyn talk about 16 years old and EU settled citizens, but nothing about the likes of me who hasn't got a vote because of the 15 year rule!

I suppose though I could have missed it!


----------



## cheekyscrip

GE should not be overshadowed and overwhelmed by Brexit.

Shame on opposition that could not unite.

Silver lining? Hope if they lose they go!!! It seems to me that now opposition not longer cares about No Deal but about their party or their fractions interests.

SNP hopes nearly for Brexit if it allowed them to pull out of UK (not sure it will pan out that way).


Thanks to Corbyn and his push to vote through Article 50 and his stand against PV we might have No Deal now or after short transition.


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Were ex pats mentioned? I only heard Corbyn talk about 16 years old and EU settled citizens, but nothing about the likes of me who hasn't got a vote because of the 15 year rule!
> 
> I suppose though I could have missed it!


Yeah, ex pats regardless of how long they've lived abroad were another. Doing away with the 15 year rule.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Yeah, ex pats regardless of how long they've lived abroad were another. Doing away with the 15 year rule.


Oh that would be great ..... if I'm still alive by the time they've got round to doing away with the present ruling!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Yeah, ex pats regardless of how long they've lived abroad were another. Doing away with the 15 year rule.


That rule is unfair. If you feel strongly enough to go to vote you should be allowed to have it no matter how many years abroad.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Oh that would be great ..... if I'm still alive by the time they've got round to doing away with the present ruling!


The way it goes you might vote in many GEs...


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> GE should not be overshadowed and overwhelmed by Brexit.
> 
> Shame on opposition that could not unite.
> 
> .


Agree with you .


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious

Larry the Cat
@Number10cat
·
3h
Labour are backing a general election in the run up to Christmas; fitting given it's a time when a man with a white beard and dressed in red is put under pressure to deliver...


----------



## Guest

I see MPs have voted for a General Election on the 12th December 2019.

I know there is the final stages of the bill to go through yet eg House of Lords etc.

At least the MPs have finally agreed to something even though they initially rejected this on Monday. This bill has cleared the House of Commons with no amendments.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If the weather is bad or very cold, I wont be able to get out vote.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> If the weather is bad or very cold, I wont be able to get out vote.


Ask to have a postal vote. 
My mum and dad are registered for postal voting.


----------



## KittenKong

Applicable for Brexit and remain supporters alike.

He's lied to all of us.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Applicable for Brexit and remain supporters alike.
> 
> He's lied to all of us.
> 
> View attachment 420971


As always, no links to back the statements, no reference to say who posted it onto what?

Rather think it's A. Noni Mouse up to his usual tricks


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> If the weather is bad or very cold, I wont be able to get out vote.


I have a postal vote. Its easy to apply for one.


----------



## Elles

I expect more people will vote for Boris and the Conservatives now, as he was prevented from taking us out of the Eu by a bunch of lying Remainers who said they respected the result of the referendum.

The country has wasted time, money and effort preparing for brexit which should have happened by now. If it wasn’t for a mainly remain parliament blocking it at every turn, making up excuses and going to court repeatedly, the speaker helping them in their efforts, we would have left with the deal the Eu agreed with Boris. They don’t want any deal. They want to stay in and have done everything in their power to make it so.

If you do want to stay in the Eu, you should vote Lib Dem imo.

Anyone calling for a second referendum want to waste more time and money. If they didn’t listen to the first one, there would be every reason for Farage to keep pushing to leave even if a second had a slight remain majority. Far better for people to vote in the Lib Dems on a majority and make it clear that most now want to stay in. Just as a conservative majority will take us out, a Lib Dem majority would keep us in. I think Brexit is between those two now. I have no idea what Labour want.

Anyway, what do you think?


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Ask to have a postal vote.
> My mum and dad are registered for postal voting.


 There are many ways to vote - my friend was in NZ at the time of the 2016 referendum, but got her OH to do a proxy vote for her.


----------



## Calvine

Apparently Corbyn has made a totally cringeworthy, butt-clenchingly awful GE video.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Apparently Corbyn has made a totally cringeworthy, butt-clenchingly awful GE video.


I found it on their twitter feed. It says in a list of what they claim to have blocked "Dementia tax... gone"...."Fox hunting ban.. gone". As far as I know there is still a ban on fox hunting lol. Yeah ok, I know that's not what they meant, but seriously and rapping? 

It's embarrassing.

Though clever to bring up the so called dementia tax. I personally thought what the Tories suggested was better than we have now and that people wouldn't be happy if they wanted to bring in today's rules, but it did lose the Tories some votes when the opposition piled into it. Labour aren't focusing on the brexit question, which should help the Lib Dems somewhat.

Trying to appeal to young students probably won't work so well, when Labour MPs went on tv and radio and basically accused university students of being too thick to register to vote correctly, saying that's why they didn't want the 12th. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

A government spokesperson said that Boris would have to pull his planned 12th December election, if the amendment passed to give 16-17 year olds and Eu nationals the vote as it would be “logistically impossible to deliver” the changes in time.

Labour’s video says Boris blocked it, as he doesn’t trust young people. Blatantly untrue, Boris didn’t block it, the speaker didn’t put it through and even the Lib Dems and SNP had asked for it to be turned down. 

Corbyn wants younger people to vote, because he thinks he and academia can manipulate them into voting labour. We all know it. No 16 year olds have been marching and handcuffing themselves to railings for the vote, but school kids have been striking and standing outside school over climate change. Maybe they would actually vote Green, seeing as Labour were in power when a lot of the worst damage was being done and Labour wanted to keep the coal mines and steel works open. 

It’s really weird some old guy prancing around trying to appeal to young people. It’s verging on grooming, but for voting favours. :Vomit


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> As always, no links to back the statements, no reference to say who posted it onto what?


To be fair, all that stuff is very common knowledge, and listing all the applicable sources would take some time


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> It's verging on grooming,


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious It is, truly it is!!


----------



## kimthecat

I dont think the election should be about Brexit. I think they should have a peoples vote if they want to know what the public think.
If the Tories win , they will be in for another 5 years . 
I dont want a Labour government yet with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge either.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I dont think the election should be about Brexit. I think they should have a peoples vote if they want to know what the public think.


Which is precisely why Boris wants a GE, not a peoples vote. He's gambling that people who would never otherwise vote Tory will vote Tory this once because of Brexit.


kimthecat said:


> If the Tories win , they will be in for another 5 years .
> I dont want a Labour government yet with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge either.


I don't want ANY of them, really. However, 'ANY vote but Tory' has to be my motto for this one.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> To be fair, all that stuff is very common knowledge, and listing all the applicable sources would take some time


In all fairness if I can find the time to list the sources of information why can't others?

If I haven't got the time to do some background research then I don't reply


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> In all fairness if I can find the time to list the sources of information why can't others?


For more obscure knowledge, sure. But all this stuff falls in to the 2+2=4 kind of category. 

Also, I'd only usually bother with links if I were using a proper computer. Doing it on a phone is too much hassle except for really important stuff...


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> Which is precisely why Boris wants a GE, not a peoples vote. He's gambling that people who would never otherwise vote Tory will vote Tory this once because of Brexit.


This is the one and only instance where, I hope, the Farage Party manage to convince the no deal supporters of the Tories inability to deliver Brexit and the Johnson lies about delivering, "Do or die".

It would split the pro Brexit vote considerably.

But I can visualise the horror of an image of Johnson, dressed in a Santa outfit and waving Union flags with the pledge, "I'll deliver you Brexit for Christmas" as the headline in certain "news"papers.....


----------



## kimthecat

Its rumoured here that Boris is looking for a safe seat . I dont know how that works.

His majority was only 5000 last election. I cant remember the last time there was a Labour MP here.

ETA it was the 60s .

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/polit...lection-boris-johnson-constituency-seat-vote/


----------



## Magyarmum

You're a bit behind the times Jeremy boy claimed Christmas in 2015


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Its rumoured here that Boris is looking for a safe seat . I dont know how that works.
> 
> His majority was only 5000 last election. I cant remember the last time there was a Labour MP here. It might have been the 70s .
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/polit...lection-boris-johnson-constituency-seat-vote/


I believe it basically means they are looking to boot the current Tory MP in a place where people _always _vote Conservative with a big margin no matter what, and probably in this case also had a significant Leave vote, and put Boris in there as the candidate instead. If he doesn't get elected as an MP, he can't be PM and there would have to be another Tory leadership election...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I believe it basically means they are looking to boot the current Tory MP in a place where people _always _vote Conservative with a big margin no matter what, and probably in this case also had a significant Leave vote, and put Boris in there as the candidate instead. If he doesn't get elected as an MP, he can't be PM and there would have to be another Tory leadership election...


 How unfair is it that he boots someone out .

When Boris was first voted in , his majority was 10.000,
Our MPs have always been local men who were born and lived here. I think a lot of people were pissed when Boris was chosen. i hope he does go to a safer seat and we can then go back to a local man or woman , conservative or labour.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> I believe it basically means they are looking to boot the current Tory MP in a place where people _always _vote Conservative with a big margin no matter what, and probably in this case also had a significant Leave vote, and put Boris in there as the candidate instead. If he doesn't get elected as an MP, he can't be PM and there would have to be another Tory leadership election...


Bill Cash's seat is usually pretty safe. Thank goodness I don't live there any more


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Bill Cash's seat is usually pretty safe. Thank goodness I don't live there any more


We've got Rotten John Redwood. Serial suppoter of anything pro-elite, pro-big business, anti-environmental, anti-common people


----------



## kimthecat

We've been targeted by labour activist before so perhaps that has something to do with Boris losing votes. 
They came a knocking at my door the last election and I said I would never labour whilst Corbyn was leader .
I expect they will be back.


----------



## Elles

I’ll be surprised if he goes for a safe seat and doesn’t stick to where he is. There was a different atmosphere around Theresa May. If Farage doesn’t stand a candidate and split the brexit vote, Boris is probably safe enough where he is.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I dont want a Labour government yet with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge either.


And Jo Swinson is unlikely as she seems to have morphed into Princess Eugenie?


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> And Jo Swinson is unlikely as she seems to have morphed into Princess Eugenie?


More Catherine the Great I would have thought!

I've always been a Lib Deb supporter but dislike Jo Swinson and her imperious manner so much would never vote for them whilst she's leader!


----------



## Elles

“Britain’s next Prime Minister“ next to a pic of Boris just makes it look like it’s an old publication lol.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> her imperious manner


Yes, dreadfully patronising; plus with the divisive comment she made about Brexiters being insular, closed and selfish, she rather showed herself up as naïve and immature. I don't think she's PM material any more than the Monster Raving Loony party, or Church of the Militant Elvis Party.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Yes, dreadfully patronising; plus with the divisive comment she made about Brexiters being insular, closed and selfish, she rather showed herself up as naïve and immature. I don't think she's PM material any more than the Monster Raving Loony party, or Church of the Militant Elvis Party.


Now I could really vote for th Monster Raving Loony Party!

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-wale...oony-party-just-wants-sensible-logical-things


----------



## samuelsmiles3

What if the Brexit Party and the Conservatives split the Brexit voters and Corbyn gets in. That won't happen will it? Please tell me that definitely won't happen.

The thought of that gives me cold sweats.


----------



## Elles

It’s unlikely. Farage isn’t stupid, nor is Boris. It’s doubtful they’d make a public pact though, because that would alienate actual Conservative voters and give the opposition ammunition. 

More likely, if it does go wrong for Boris, is another coalition between Lib Dems and other Remainers and an end to Corbyn, who should retire imo. I don’t think Labour can win outright, unless Boris does a May and introduces highly controversial changes to the manifesto. Even then, if Corbyn couldn’t beat May, he’s unlikely to beat Boris and really unlikely to beat Boris and get a majority government.


----------



## Guest

There is a rather large list of MPs not standing in this election in their constituencies:

*MPs that are stepping down:*
*
Conservative*

David Tredinnick, Bosworth
Glyn Davies, Montgomeryshire
Jeremy LeFroy, Stafford
Keith Simpson, Broadland
Caroline Spelman, Meriden
Michael Fallon, Sevenoaks
Jo Johnson, Orpington
Nick Hurd, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner
Claire Perry, Devizes
David Jones, Clwyd West
Mark Prisk, Hertford and Stortford
Bill Grant, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
Hugo Swire, East Devon
Mark Field, Cities of London and Westminster
Seema Kennedy, South Ribble
Sarah Newton, Truro and Falmouth
Patrick McLoughlin, Derbyshire Dales
Nicholas Soames, Mid Sussex
David Lidington, Aylesbury
*Labour*

Ronnie Campbell, Blyth Valley
Jim Fitzpatrick, Poplar and Limehouse
Kevin Barron, Rother Valley
Geoffrey Robinson, Coventry North West
Stephen Pound, Ealing North
Kate Hoey, Vauxhall
Roberta Blackman-Woods, City of Durham
Gloria De Piero, Ashfield
Albert Owen, Ynys Mon
Paul Farrelly, Newcastle-under-Lyme
John Mann, Bassetlaw
Ann Clwyd, Cynon Valley
Ian Lucas, Wrexham
*Lib Dem*

Norman Lamb, North Norfolk
Vince Cable, Twickenham
Heidi Allen, South Cambridgeshire
*Independent*

Ken Clarke, Rushcliffe
Guto Bebb, Aberconwy
Oliver Letwin, West Dorset
Richard Harrington, Watford
Justine Greening, Putney
Alistair Burt, North East Bedfordshire
Richard Benyon, Newbury
Rory Stewart, Penrith and The Border
Amber Rudd, Hastings and Rye
*Other*

Nick Boles, Independent Progressive Conservative, Grantham and Stamford
Joan Ryan, The Independent Group For Change, Enfield North
John Bercow, Speaker, Buckingham


----------



## Elles

I don’t see Owen Smith in the list?


----------



## Guest

saartje said:


> There is a rather large list of MPs not standing in this election in their constituencies:
> 
> *MPs that are stepping down:*
> *
> Conservative*
> 
> David Tredinnick, Bosworth
> Glyn Davies, Montgomeryshire
> Jeremy LeFroy, Stafford
> Keith Simpson, Broadland
> Caroline Spelman, Meriden
> Michael Fallon, Sevenoaks
> Jo Johnson, Orpington
> Nick Hurd, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner
> Claire Perry, Devizes
> David Jones, Clwyd West
> Mark Prisk, Hertford and Stortford
> Bill Grant, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
> Hugo Swire, East Devon
> Mark Field, Cities of London and Westminster
> Seema Kennedy, South Ribble
> Sarah Newton, Truro and Falmouth
> Patrick McLoughlin, Derbyshire Dales
> Nicholas Soames, Mid Sussex
> David Lidington, Aylesbury
> *Labour*
> 
> Ronnie Campbell, Blyth Valley
> Jim Fitzpatrick, Poplar and Limehouse
> Kevin Barron, Rother Valley
> Geoffrey Robinson, Coventry North West
> Stephen Pound, Ealing North
> Kate Hoey, Vauxhall
> Roberta Blackman-Woods, City of Durham
> Gloria De Piero, Ashfield
> Albert Owen, Ynys Mon
> Paul Farrelly, Newcastle-under-Lyme
> John Mann, Bassetlaw
> Ann Clwyd, Cynon Valley
> Ian Lucas, Wrexham
> *Lib Dem*
> 
> Norman Lamb, North Norfolk
> Vince Cable, Twickenham
> Heidi Allen, South Cambridgeshire
> *Independent*
> 
> Ken Clarke, Rushcliffe
> Guto Bebb, Aberconwy
> Oliver Letwin, West Dorset
> Richard Harrington, Watford
> Justine Greening, Putney
> Alistair Burt, North East Bedfordshire
> Richard Benyon, Newbury
> Rory Stewart, Penrith and The Border
> Amber Rudd, Hastings and Rye
> *Other*
> 
> Nick Boles, Independent Progressive Conservative, Grantham and Stamford
> Joan Ryan, The Independent Group For Change, Enfield North
> John Bercow, Speaker, Buckingham


And Owen Smith


----------



## Guest

There is alot of seats available in this United Kingdom General Election.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> There is a rather large list of MPs not standing in this election in their constituencies:
> 
> *MPs that are stepping down:*
> *
> Conservative*
> 
> David Tredinnick, Bosworth
> Glyn Davies, Montgomeryshire
> Jeremy LeFroy, Stafford
> Keith Simpson, Broadland
> Caroline Spelman, Meriden
> Michael Fallon, Sevenoaks
> Jo Johnson, Orpington
> Nick Hurd, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner
> Claire Perry, Devizes
> David Jones, Clwyd West
> Mark Prisk, Hertford and Stortford
> Bill Grant, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
> Hugo Swire, East Devon
> Mark Field, Cities of London and Westminster
> Seema Kennedy, South Ribble
> Sarah Newton, Truro and Falmouth
> Patrick McLoughlin, Derbyshire Dales
> Nicholas Soames, Mid Sussex
> David Lidington, Aylesbury
> *Labour*
> 
> Ronnie Campbell, Blyth Valley
> Jim Fitzpatrick, Poplar and Limehouse
> Kevin Barron, Rother Valley
> Geoffrey Robinson, Coventry North West
> Stephen Pound, Ealing North
> Kate Hoey, Vauxhall
> Roberta Blackman-Woods, City of Durham
> Gloria De Piero, Ashfield
> Albert Owen, Ynys Mon
> Paul Farrelly, Newcastle-under-Lyme
> John Mann, Bassetlaw
> Ann Clwyd, Cynon Valley
> Ian Lucas, Wrexham
> *Lib Dem*
> 
> Norman Lamb, North Norfolk
> Vince Cable, Twickenham
> Heidi Allen, South Cambridgeshire
> *Independent*
> 
> Ken Clarke, Rushcliffe
> Guto Bebb, Aberconwy
> Oliver Letwin, West Dorset
> Richard Harrington, Watford
> Justine Greening, Putney
> Alistair Burt, North East Bedfordshire
> Richard Benyon, Newbury
> Rory Stewart, Penrith and The Border
> Amber Rudd, Hastings and Rye
> *Other*
> 
> Nick Boles, Independent Progressive Conservative, Grantham and Stamford
> Joan Ryan, The Independent Group For Change, Enfield North
> John Bercow, Speaker, Buckingham


That's along list ! I feel sorry for Jo Johnson. he's an ok guy and is paying for being Boris's brother .


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> There is a rather large list of MPs not standing in this election in their constituencies:
> 
> *MPs that are stepping down:*
> *
> Conservative*
> 
> David Tredinnick, Bosworth
> Glyn Davies, Montgomeryshire
> Jeremy LeFroy, Stafford
> Keith Simpson, Broadland
> Caroline Spelman, Meriden
> Michael Fallon, Sevenoaks
> Jo Johnson, Orpington
> Nick Hurd, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner
> Claire Perry, Devizes
> David Jones, Clwyd West
> Mark Prisk, Hertford and Stortford
> Bill Grant, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
> Hugo Swire, East Devon
> Mark Field, Cities of London and Westminster
> Seema Kennedy, South Ribble
> Sarah Newton, Truro and Falmouth
> Patrick McLoughlin, Derbyshire Dales
> Nicholas Soames, Mid Sussex
> David Lidington, Aylesbury
> *Labour*
> 
> Ronnie Campbell, Blyth Valley
> Jim Fitzpatrick, Poplar and Limehouse
> Kevin Barron, Rother Valley
> Geoffrey Robinson, Coventry North West
> Stephen Pound, Ealing North
> Kate Hoey, Vauxhall
> Roberta Blackman-Woods, City of Durham
> Gloria De Piero, Ashfield
> Albert Owen, Ynys Mon
> Paul Farrelly, Newcastle-under-Lyme
> John Mann, Bassetlaw
> Ann Clwyd, Cynon Valley
> Ian Lucas, Wrexham
> *Lib Dem*
> 
> Norman Lamb, North Norfolk
> Vince Cable, Twickenham
> Heidi Allen, South Cambridgeshire
> *Independent*
> 
> Ken Clarke, Rushcliffe
> Guto Bebb, Aberconwy
> Oliver Letwin, West Dorset
> Richard Harrington, Watford
> Justine Greening, Putney
> Alistair Burt, North East Bedfordshire
> Richard Benyon, Newbury
> Rory Stewart, Penrith and The Border
> Amber Rudd, Hastings and Rye
> *Other*
> 
> Nick Boles, Independent Progressive Conservative, Grantham and Stamford
> Joan Ryan, The Independent Group For Change, Enfield North
> John Bercow, Speaker, Buckingham


Ooh, mine is stepping down....


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Ooh, mine is stepping down....


I wish mine was....


----------



## Jonescat

Mine was last seen being thrown out of the Conservative Party Conference for fighting......


----------



## rona

Nicholas Soames, will be a great loss. He was the first to stand up and say that West Sussex CC needed to be "looked into". The leader has since resigned 
John Bercow on the other hand...........little man with large chip feeling the need to prove something by intimidation of anyone he can


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Nicholas Soames, will be a great loss. He was the first to stand up and say that West Sussex CC needed to be "looked into". The leader has since resigned
> *John Bercow *on the other hand...........little man with large chip feeling the need to prove something by intimidation of anyone he can


I think he's brilliant, I shall miss him when I watch the Parliamentary Channel.


----------



## Guest

The list I posted earlier is now out of date because over the last few hours a few more MPs have announced they are stepping down including Nicky Morgan.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I must say Amber Rudd is a loss.
Most of independent are and I will miss Bercow and “ Ooorder!!!” .

Great guy. 

Rory Stewart is another good egg.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Be ready for Russian style Parliament.
.


Wish Corbyn stepped down.

Swindon is awful.


She should not undermine Labour if the only chance of Lib Dem in power ever will be as a part of coalition.


----------



## Elles

I liked Amber Rudd. Sorry, but biased Bercow interfered with Brexit too much in the end. Probably why Remainers like him.

Not sure about Rory Stewart. ‘Good egg’ is a bit Enid Blyton. :Hilarious


----------



## cheekyscrip

If I could would vote Green, but anything is better than Boris and ERG.

Even The Raving Looney Party.


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> What if the Brexit Party and the Conservatives split the Brexit voters and Corbyn gets in. That won't happen will it? Please tell me that definitely won't happen.
> 
> The thought of that gives me cold sweats.


Corbyn has never been PM, even if it were to happen he's well into his '70s so he would serve only one term at most.

The press scaring their readers by their horror stories again.....

I find the prospect of an extreme right wing government a terrifying prospect quite frankly.

While I'm hardly a fan of Corbyn's I know where my vote's going. Not only for tactical reasons, but as a tribute to those Labour activists who've worked so hard to shift their position. At least they've now pledged to put their deal back to the people which is good enough for me.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> If I could would vote Green, but anything is better than Boris and ERG.
> 
> Even The Raving Looney Party.


If I didn't live 100km too far South the SNP would most certainly get my vote.


----------



## Guest

David Liddington joins the list of MPs stepping down.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> Vince Cable, Twickenham


 That's mine out! Thanks for the info @saartje.


----------



## kimthecat

A funny thread on Twitter 
#brexitriotshavestarted
https://twitter.com/search?q=#brexitriots&src=trend_click&pt=1189875180560105474


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Thursday 31 October 2019 by Lucas Wilde*

*Brexit riots cancelled as it's a bit nippy outside*









*Brexiters would be taking to the streets with pitchforks today if it wasn't quite so chilly.*

Right-wing commentators, members of the ERG and some who voted for Brexit had warned that there would be riots in the street if Britain didn't leave the EU by the promised date of October 31st.

"And mark my words, those riots would have been ferocious in their scale and intensity," said Brexiter, Simon Williams.

"Dustbins set on fire, park benches lobbed through the windows of Burger King, mass hysteria, the streets of London throbbing with disillusioned, angry and violent Brexiters from all walks of like.

"But it's four degrees outside and I can't find my mittens. So I'm going to stay in and watch old episodes of Top gear instead. That'll learn them."

Police chief, Jay Cooper, said, "Much like the British government, we had made zero preparations for the Brexit date of October 31st.

"Partly because nobody outside of Russia riots in the winter, but mostly because if there's one thing we've all learned about Brexit it's that if we are told what's going to happen, we should plan for the exact opposite.

"You're lucky I'm available for comment, to be honest. Most of the team booked today as annual leave."


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> A funny thread on Twitter
> #brexitriotshavestarted
> https://twitter.com/search?q=#brexitriots&src=trend_click&pt=1189875180560105474


This was my favourite

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189893437044203520


----------



## Jesthar

I really like this one 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189899241260535811
Oh, and also this, even though it needs a date change:


----------



## cheekyscrip

Brexit will make us into Little America... so scary if you think about NHS.

I don’t get how British people don’t get it?
I mean the majority.
I blame opposition too for putting their party and their own interests first before the country.


----------



## KittenKong

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
We're celebrating today.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Brexit will make us into Little America... so scary if you think about NHS.
> 
> I don't get how British people don't get it?
> I mean the majority.
> I blame opposition too for putting their party and their own interests first before the country.


Absolutely, and I'm disgusted the opposition parties allowed this election to go ahead without the assurances EU citizens would be allowed to participate.

We are all people who contribute to society. I detest this, "Britain for the British" rhetoric. It's who we are, not where we were born that matters.


----------



## Elles

Britishness is also a culture. 

It’s a difficult one. Our infrastructure can’t support the whole world on this island, so there has to be limits. How do we apply it? Who does the country accept and who to exclude?

When you say “it’s who we are that matters”, in what way?


----------



## KittenKong

I hear Trump has now involved himself in the UK GE, arguing that Farage and Johnson should work together and the Johnson Brexit deal could hinder a trade deal with the US.

Once again, I'm deafened by the silence of uproar from Brexiters, remembering how they reacted to the time Obama intervened in 2016.

They had a point, as it was a UK matter. He should have kept his nose out of it.

Then, so should Trump.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely, and I'm disgusted the opposition parties allowed this election to go ahead without the assurances EU citizens would be allowed to participate.
> 
> We are all people who contribute to society. I detest this, "Britain for the British" rhetoric. It's who we are, not where we were born that matters[/QUOTE


Has it not occurred to you how long it would take to change the legislation to give EU citizens the right to vote in the forthcoming GE.?

And as the UK is still an EU member I daresay the 27 other EU countries would have something to say about it, particularly as there are few if any other countries which extend the rights you so desire to nationals of another country.

I lived, worked and paid taxes in South Africa for over 30 years, and for 7 years in France, but being a resident and not a citizen, I could only vote in municipal elections but not General Elections. The same applies her in Hungary.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20140107/fr...nion-voting-rights-be-given-the-right-to-vote

http://www.guirigirlinbarca.com/history/expat-vote-in-spains-general-election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote#South_Africa

Not doubt you'll disparage this article because it's from the Express and horror of horror .................. the BBC!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...rg-general-election-EU-citizens-voting-Brexit

*BBC's Laura Kuenssberg points out no other EU country offers EU citizens vote in elections*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I wish that PR*T over the pond would shut his BIG mouth shut and keep out of our election.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wish that PR*T over the pond would shut his BIG mouth shut and keep out of our election.


Imagine if Johnson and Farage did get together with the former ditching his Brexit deal to satisfy Trump.

That's not talking back control, it's succumbing to control from a superpower.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> I wish that PR*T over the pond would shut his BIG mouth shut and keep out of our election.


I agree he's being totally unhelpful, we don't need his interference in our politics. That's the whole point in Brexit. We want to say what happens and not some European bureaucracy, nor an American neither. Keep your nose out Mr President, your position is temporary.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I agree he's being totally unhelpful, we don't need his interference in our politics. That's the whole point in Brexit. We want to say what happens and not some European bureaucracy, nor an American neither. Keep your nose out Mr President, your position is temporary.


He can't really afford to stay out of it, though. The US have failed to strongarm the EU directly into playing by US rules, particularly when it comes to things like food/product standards and workers protections, as the EU is a big enough entity to resist without major consequences (cross-reference the heavily pro-US terms imposed on smaller parties by in recent US trade deals).

Brexit, however, offers a unique opportunity to apply alternative pressures. Although the UK is no longer a real world power, we still punch well above our weight within the EU thanks to the extra perks we have. So the US favours a No Deal Brexit simply because it weakens both the UK and the EU the most. The closer we remain to the EU, in particular regarding trade, the less opportunity the US has to pressure for the lowered standards that would allow them wider access to the EU market without having to improve the quality of their produce.

Of course, if there is no deal and the US play hardball with the UK (which they almost certainly will) and the EU stand their ground (which they almost certainly will), the UK may well end up stuck choosing between accepting US terms or being able to trade frictionlessly with our closest neighbours.


----------



## Elles

We aren’t that important, the people aren’t bothered about deals with America and Boris has secured his deal. Vote Lib Dem and put a stop to brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> We aren't that important


Correct, though we are still more important than we should be for our size, and far more important than we will be after Brexit. That's just logic.



Elles said:


> the people aren't bothered about deals with America


'The people' aren't really bothered about an awful lot of things they really should pay attention to, though... 



Elles said:


> and Boris has secured his deal. Vote Lib Dem and put a stop to brexit.


Depends what candidates we get in our area. I'm in Rotten John Redwood's Tory stronghold, anyway...


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> He can't really afford to stay out of it, though. The US have failed to strongarm the EU directly into playing by US rules, particularly when it comes to things like food/product standards and workers protections, as the EU is a big enough entity to resist without major consequences (cross-reference the heavily pro-US terms imposed on smaller parties by in recent US trade deals).
> 
> Brexit, however, offers a unique opportunity to apply alternative pressures. Although the UK is no longer a real world power, we still punch well above our weight within the EU thanks to the extra perks we have. So the US favours a No Deal Brexit simply because it weakens both the UK and the EU the most. The closer we remain to the EU, in particular regarding trade, the less opportunity the US has to pressure for the lowered standards that would allow them wider access to the EU market without having to improve the quality of their produce.
> 
> Of course, if there is no deal and the US play hardball with the UK (which they almost certainly will) and the EU stand their ground (which they almost certainly will), the UK may well end up stuck choosing between accepting US terms or being able to trade frictionlessly with our closest neighbours.


Since the days of Thatcher and Reagan, each UK PM has bent over backwards to please the US. The last one to stand up to them was Harold Wilson over their Vietnam War in the '60s.

Imagine if Vietnam was happening now and not then? Would be a very different story....

Johnson will be no exception if Trump insists on a no deal Brexit in order to get a trade deal.

And, with a majority government bereft of Tory moderates there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Then, the long held far right dream of private healthcare, no fault dismissals, bulldozing of employee rights and chlorinated Turkeys ready for next Christmas.

The sad thing is, people are allowing it to happen....


----------



## KittenKong

Didn't know this myself:


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> how they reacted to the time Obama intervened in 2016.


 But he arrived _in person_ to tell us we would be ''back of the queue'' I seem to remember. Is DT planning to give us the honour of a pre-election visit?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> But he arrived _in person_ to tell us we would be ''back of the queue'' I seem to remember. *Is DT planning to give us the honour of a pre-election visit?*


Please don't give him any ideas


----------



## KittenKong

Calvine said:


> But he arrived _in person_ to tell us we would be ''back of the queue'' I seem to remember. Is DT planning to give us the honour of a pre-election visit?


Whether he does or not, he's still meddling when he should keep out of it.

His comments appeared on the front pages of sympathetic papers and reported on BBC news.


----------



## Guest

*Parliament to vote next week on Brexit dual nationality proposal*

A large majority of MPs will vote in favour of new legislation giving Dutch nationals in the UK the right to dual nationality if Britain crashes out of the EU without a deal.

The vote is due to take place next Tuesday, and although opposed by the government, it can count on the backing of three of the four coalition parties. It is still unclear which way the Christian Democrats will vote.

The bill was drawn up by the Liberal democratic party D66 and originally included British nationals in the Netherlands as well. But they were dropped from the proposals because there was not enough support in parliament for extending dual nationality rights to them as well.

The SNBN, which represents the rights of Dutch nationals abroad, has welcomed the new legislation but said it would continue to fight for the right of all Dutch nationals to hold a second passport.

The 3Million organisation, which represents all foreign nationals in the UK, said it was extremely pleased with the support. 'The debate showed that all parties understand the man in the street is the victim in all of this,' the organisation told the SNBN.

*Specific*

Dutch law currently only allow British nationals dual nationality in a few, specific circumstances, such as being married to a Dutch national for a number of years. Dutch nationals who take another nationality, such as British, also lose their Dutch passports.'

,It is important to note that this law is only a solution for Dutch nationals living in the UK who are eligible for naturalisation under UK law… and is therefore not a solution for all Dutch citizens living in the UK,' Elles Besselsen of immigration law specialists Everaert Advocaten told DutchNews.nl.

'There are still many outstanding questions and uncertainties,' she said. 'At the same time, this might be a little step towards allowing dual nationality in the Netherlands although the law proposal clearly states this is a one-time exception based on the very extraordinary and uncertain situation that Brexit is.'

The government had pledged to publish its thoughts on reforming Dutch nationality this spring but has not yet done so.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/...ext-week-on-brexit-dual-nationality-proposal/


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 420609


yes
I remember the happy times before Brexit .
London riots 2011 that spread and took days to get back control. What jolly japes!


----------



## samuelsmiles3

kimthecat said:


> yes
> I remember the happy times before Brexit .
> London riots 2011 that spread and took days to get back control. What jolly japes!


Haha. Yes, and the smog - do you remember the smog when all we had to stay warm and alive was coal? And the power cuts in the 1970s when we had to light candles around the house and play card games to entertain ourselves?

The three day week? The Austin Allegro?

Dripping on toast?

Ahhh, happy times.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> yes
> I remember the happy times before Brexit .
> London riots 2011 that spread and took days to get back control. What jolly japes!


That had absolutely nothing to do with EU membership! They were riots in the early years of Thatcher's government too as Towns became ghost towns with the destruction of the traditional industries from 1980.

Weren't they scuffles in London during the 1968 anti Vietnam War demo too?

And, what makes you think, post Brexit, they won't be riots in the future when many Brexit voters realise they were conned, with increased austerity, job losses and should rationing occur?

They were promised a better life with sunlit uplands, not a worse one.

And this dellusional belief that, "Getting Brexit Done", will end it, so they can concentrate on other things....

Like the many years of trade negotiations to replace those lost overnight as part of the EEA. Even Mogg predicted it could take 50 years, then, austerity won't be a problem for people like him.

And, oh yes, the US rescue package is under threat if Johnson doesn't deliver a _Trump _Brexit...

The gold star becomes white, as a sign of surrender to a superpower situated 1000s of miles away.....


----------



## KittenKong

samuelsmiles3 said:


> Haha. Yes, and the smog - do you remember the smog when all we had to stay warm and alive was coal? And the power cuts in the 1970s when we had to light candles around the house and play card games to entertain ourselves?
> 
> The three day week? The Austin Allegro?
> 
> Dripping on toast?
> 
> Ahhh, happy times.


It was a very different world though back then. Brexit won't bring those days back.

People never miss what they've never had, but would react badly to being deprived of what they took for granted.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> That had absolutely nothing to do with EU membership!


So what was in the photo fron 2012 you posted that was to do with th EU ?

ETA you twist things . Im sure there will be riots in the future but posting something you copied from whereever about stopping at 2012 when Britain was great and open ,.
The Olympics and The Queens Diamond Jubilee. nothing to do with the EU


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So what was in the photo fron 2012 you posted that was to do with th EU ?


Exactly!

This was a purely UK event that left the nation proud of its own achievements and welcomed people from all nations to participate.

My point was, not one person argued the event was somehow, "Less British", through being in the EU.

Being a member of the EU didn't stop individual nations from holding such events.

How things change in a few short years.

I was glad England lost to SA in the much publicised Rugby match yesterday.

I didn't want Johnson to use an England victory to his advantage with the, "Feel good factor".....


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I didn't want Johnson to use an England victory to his advantage with the, "Feel good factor".....


Did you see him Friday night in his England rugby shirt.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Did you see him Friday night in his England rugby shirt.


And how he wears a Doctor's overall when visiting hospitals.

Lest we forget....


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Exactly!
> 
> This was a purely UK event that left the nation proud of its own achievements and welcomed people from all nations to participate.
> 
> My point was, not one person argued the event was somehow, "Less British", through being in the EU.
> 
> ...


No , that wasnt your original point or rather that wasnt the point of the person who first put up that Gif. You posted the Gif with no comment . You just made that point up after I queried the Gif. 
The GIf implies that Britain will not be happy or open nor be great again once we leave the EU. .


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> That had absolutely nothing to do with EU membership! They were riots in the early years of Thatcher's government too as Towns became ghost towns with the destruction of the traditional industries from 1980.
> 
> Weren't they scuffles in London during the 1968 anti Vietnam War demo too?
> 
> And, what makes you think, post Brexit, they won't be riots in the future when many Brexit voters realise they were conned, with increased austerity, job losses and should rationing occur?
> 
> They were promised a better life with sunlit uplands, not a worse one.
> 
> And this dellusional belief that, "Getting Brexit Done", will end it, so they can concentrate on other things....
> 
> Like the many years of trade negotiations to replace those lost overnight as part of the EEA. Even Mogg predicted it could take 50 years, then, austerity won't be a problem for people like him.
> 
> And, oh yes, the US rescue package is under threat if Johnson doesn't deliver a _Trump _Brexit...
> 
> The gold star becomes white, as a sign of surrender to a superpower situated 1000s of miles away.....
> 
> View attachment 421290


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Exactly!
> 
> My point was, not one person argued the event was somehow, "Less British", through being in the EU.


How would you know if not one person argued it was less British ? There's over 60 million people here !



> I was glad England lost to SA in the much publicised Rugby match yesterday.
> 
> I didn't want Johnson to use an England victory to his advantage with the, "Feel good factor".....


Wow , you really are a Scorpio , you want the team to lose to spite Johnson regardless of how the Rugby team felt about losing .


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> How would you know if not one person argued it was less British ? There's over 60 million people here !
> 
> Wow , you really are a Scorpio , you want the team to lose to spite Johnson regardless of how the Rugby team felt about losing.


It must be horrible to have such a sour attitude towards life and only to seemingly take pleasure in other people's misfortunes!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> No , that wasnt your original point or rather that wasnt the point of the person who first put up that Gif. You posted the Gif with no comment . You just made that point up after I queried the Gif.
> The GIf implies that Britain will not be happy or open nor be great again once we leave the EU. .


I didn't comment on the GIF as it spoke for itself.

The UK is closing its doors to the rest of Europe, how is that open and tolerant?

Perhaps you should say _England _rather than Britain when the UK splits up.

But I know _Scotland_ will be great again once Independent of Westminster and, at least part of the EEA again.



kimthecat said:


> Wow , you really are a Scorpio , you want the team to lose to spite Johnson regardless of how the Rugby team felt about losing and the disappointment the people living in England felt.


I'm sorry if people were disappointed. I just didn't want Johnson to capitalise on a victory that's all.


----------



## kimthecat

I feel like Alice in Wonderland down a rabbit hole when I talk to you :Hilarious
Lets a draw a line under it , it helped passed wet Sunday afternoon. 

We both agree on something - we dont like Boris .
Im angry he started another GE.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Did you see him Friday night in his England rugby shirt.


Will he dress up as Santa Claus next, nothing would surprise me.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Did you see him Friday night in his England rugby shirt


I believe he's always been an avid Rugby supporter



KittenKong said:


> And how he wears a Doctor's overall when visiting hospitals


Could it possibly be for cleanliness reasons?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Will he dress up as Santa Claus next, nothing would surprise me.


Why not, he's got the figure for it  If it makes some children happy, who cares


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Why not, he's got the figure for it  If it makes some children happy, who cares


BJ as Father Christmas he'd scare them to death.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Could it possibly be for cleanliness reasons?


If it was, a disposable apron would have been more appropriate.



rona said:


> Why not, he's got the figure for it  If it makes some children happy, who cares


But children cannot vote! He'll be appealing to the voters, "My Christmas presents for you...."


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I believe he's always been an avid Rugby supporter


They play it at Eton. I assume he played it there .


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Could it possibly be for cleanliness reasons?


Unless he's in an operating theatre, nope. Or possibly a lab, but only if you're getting hands on (which, of course, would be staged - no-one is going to let a lab tourist help with real tests!) and need clothing protection.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Unless he's in an operating theatre, nope. Or possibly a lab, but only if you're getting hands on (which, of course, would be staged - no-one is going to let a lab tourist help with real tests!) and need clothing protection.












https://www.cambridgeindependent.co...rooke-s-hospital-are-hugely-exciting-9087992/


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


>


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


>


Why do you find it so funny? He was visiting a genomics Lab where it's standard practice for people to wear protective clothing


----------



## KittenKong

Interesting.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> They play it at Eton. I assume he played it there .


 https://www.ruck.co.uk/revealed-which-england-player-went-to-the-most-expensive-school/

I think this year saw ten players from public school . . . state schools don't tend to generate many rugby players; they rather stick to football. So Boris and other Eton alumni will almost certainly be supporters of the game. Apparently his dog was watching too.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Why do you find it so funny? He was visiting a genomics Lab where it's standard practice for people to wear protective clothing


Absolutely: if he was on a building site he'd no doubt wear a hard protective hat. The whole thing would look very unprofessional if they did not comply.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Why do you find it so funny? He was visiting a genomics Lab where it's standard practice for people to wear protective clothing


It's probably that there are only two sample holders in the tray, plus other technical details. The lady who owned the horse I used to ride was a very highly qualified NHS lab tech (gave me a lab tour once as she knew I'd love the cancer spotting software they use), and that is so obviously a setup it's amusing to anyone who knows how most labs really work


----------



## rona

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/ne...is-johnson-addenbrookes-visit-doctor-17181236


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> It's probably that there are only two sample holders in the tray, plus other technical details. The lady who owned the horse I used to ride was a very highly qualified NHS lab tech (gave me a lab tour once as she knew I'd love the cancer spotting software they use), and that is so obviously a setup it's amusing to anyone who knows how most labs really work


I would think most of the visits are set up regardless of who visits. Its good publicity for Adenbrooke as well BJ.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> It's probably that there are only two sample holders in the tray, plus other technical details. The lady who owned the horse I used to ride was a very highly qualified NHS lab tech (gave me a lab tour once as she knew I'd love the cancer spotting software they use), and that is so obviously a setup it's amusing to anyone who knows how most labs really work


The hilarity of the previous posters was nothing to do with him visiting a lab or the fact there were only two test tubes in the tray.. In fact I doubt either of them realised it was part of his visit.

Twas the coat they were laughing at not realising that irrespective of who they were, any visitor to the lab would have be required to wear a white coat


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I would think most of the visits are set up regardless of who visits. Its good publicity for Adenbrooke as well BJ.


Oh, absolutely - they didn't put a huge amount of effort into that one, though  Then again, neither would I. Hopefully they either used kit that is sanitisable, or recycled stuff slated for chucking after use anyway.



Magyarmum said:


> The hilarity of the previous posters was nothing to do with him visiting a lab or the fact there were only two test tubes in the tray.. In fact I doubt either of them realised it was part of his visit.


Well, I can't vouch for that as at least one of them didn't give any reason as to why the found it funny.  To me, it's just another cringeworthy, blatantly contrived photo op, and funny to anyone familiar with such setups 



Magyarmum said:


> Twas the coat they were laughing at not realising that irrespective of who they were, any visitor to the lab would have be required to wear a white coat


Not strictly true, depends on the lab and also what is going on in there as to whether visitors need one. I didn't wear one when I went round with my friend, and I've never worn one in the big lab at work either (then again, I'm not the one playing with high strength acid  ).


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Why do you find it so funny? He was visiting a genomics Lab where it's standard practice for people to wear protective clothing


Because he looks such a Pr*t, how anyone can take seriously is beyond me.


----------



## Elles

You’ve got a choice. Boris, Jeremy, Jo, or Nigel.

What a choice we have.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> You've got a choice. Boris, Jeremy, Jo, or Nigel.
> 
> What a choice we have.


Makes you want to find a remote island and move.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You've got a choice. Boris, Jeremy, Jo, or Nigel.
> 
> What a choice we have.


The Green.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> The Green.


No green here. No conservative though either.

plus I think it's anti democratic to cancel brexit. I think it's really anti democratic to cancel brexit without asking and anti democratic to ask without first honouring the referendum. So basically, it might sound good to cancel it, forget it and go back to life as usual, especially at my age, but it would be anti democratic to do so, which means I can't support it, even if I wanted to. Democracy and that the people are sovereign is too important to give up for the likes of Jo Swinson, or the Greens, whose motives I'm not at all sure about today.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Democracy and that the people are sovereign is too important to give up for the likes of Jo Swinson, or the Greens, whose motives I'm not at all sure about today


I hear she's now trying to push herself onto a tv debate  What's she on, thinking herself far more important than she is. Using the sex discrimination as a reason too  She's obviously deluded

If it was a debate among ALL leaders then she may have a point, but really!


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> You've got a choice. Boris, Jeremy, Jo, or Nigel.
> 
> What a choice we have.


:Spitoutdummy


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> No green here. No conservative though either.
> 
> plus I think it's anti democratic to cancel brexit. I think it's really anti democratic to cancel brexit without asking and anti democratic to ask without first honouring the referendum. So basically, it might sound good to cancel it, forget it and go back to life as usual, especially at my age, but it would be anti democratic to do so, which means I can't support it, even if I wanted to. Democracy and that the people are sovereign is too important to give up for the likes of Jo Swinson, or the Greens, whose motives I'm not at all sure about today.


Absolutely. This is why when cards are on the table we should have PV not Brexit election, as election should not be about just one issue.
If people in majority want that deal so be it.

Now we are not talking about theoretical Brexit, with everyone having own ideas and solutions but about what we got.

Why then who came with that deal had no confidence in their own deal and no confidence in WoTP?

This is democracy. We have a deal and a choice.

Same as when you change a job, move abroad etc... the final decision is made when you know the offer.

I think that Remain is better no matter what troll factories in Russia might say...

But if British people decided in binding referendum on actual deal to have it, so be it.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I hear she's now trying to push herself onto a tv debate  What's she on, thinking herself far more important than she is. Using the sex discrimination as a reason too  She's obviously deluded
> 
> If it was a debate among ALL leaders then she may have a point, but really!


I agree it's silly to suggest this is down to gender. Farage won't be there will he.

I think it's more about making it appear like the US Presidential debates


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> But if British people decided in binding referendum , so be it.


We did and it hasn't been accepted, why would another be any different.

It's just insulting to those that made the effort to go and vote out in 2016


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> We did and it hasn't been accepted, why would another be any different.
> 
> It's just insulting to those that made the effort to go and vote out in 2016


Just as insulting as the insinuation that anyone who voted Leave was somehow manipulated by the Russians


----------



## Elles

They want a second vote because they think it’s a chance to overturn the result of the first. We all know it, however they try to package it and wrap it in pretty words. We had a vote. In the biggest turnout in British history people voted to leave the Eu.

If they want a referendum, which would be a waste of money, it should be deal or no deal, remain shouldn’t even be an option. We should have already left.

It doesn’t matter what you, I, Remainers, leavers, 16 year olds, or couldn’t care lessers think. We had a once in a lifetime chance to leave the Eu and people in their millions had been waiting for it and grabbed it. It needs to be honoured.


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> I hear she's now trying to push herself onto a tv debate  What's she on, thinking herself far more important than she is. Using the sex discrimination as a reason too  She's obviously deluded
> 
> If it was a debate among ALL leaders then she may have a point, but really!


https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...rats-mulling-legal-action-over-tv-debate-snub

*Liberal Democrats mulling legal action over TV debate snub*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> They want a second vote because they think it's a chance to overturn the result of the first. We all know it, however they try to package it and wrap it in pretty words. We had a vote. In the biggest turnout in British history people voted to leave the Eu.
> 
> If they want a referendum, which would be a waste of money, it should be deal or no deal, remain shouldn't even be an option. We should have already left.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you, I, Remainers, leavers, 16 year olds, or couldn't care lessers think. We had a once in a lifetime chance to leave the Eu and people in their millions had been waiting for it and grabbed it. It needs to be honoured.


Yes but the reason some people voted were silly, spoken to or heard people say, they voted leave because they did want to loss the union flag, someone else that we would loss the queen, some one said they flipped a coin, how many other silly reason have brought out of the EU. There should never have been a referendum in the first place as* some *people had no idea what they were voting for.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes but the reason some people voted were silly, spoken to or heard people say, they voted leave because they did want to loss the union flag, someone else that we would loss the queen, some one said they flipped a coin, how many other silly reason have brought out of the EU. There should never have been a referendum in the first place as* some *people had no idea what they were voting for.


It doesn't matter. Some people voted remain for silly reasons. They think the Eu are benign and caring and want to look after us all and are terrified the sky will fall if we leave. We were told it often enough. You may believe it yourself, I don't know.

There was going to be a vote on it sooner or later. I think it was the wrong time and that's why over 3 years later we still haven't left, but it was going to happen. Too many people were dissatisfied with the Eu.

It's no use Remainers telling leave voters why they voted leave, or leave voters telling Remain voters why they voted remain. The result was leave and if the powers weren't going to accept it, it shouldn't have been an option.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> It doesn't matter. Some people voted remain for silly reasons. They think the Eu are benign and caring and want to look after us all and are terrified the sky will fall if we leave. We were told it often enough. You may believe it yourself, I don't know.
> 
> There was going to be a vote on it sooner or later. I think it was the wrong time and that's why over 3 years later we still haven't left, but it was going to happen. *Too many people were dissatisfied with the Eu.*
> 
> It's no use Remainers telling leave voters why they voted leave, or leave voters telling Remain voters why they voted remain. The result was leave and if the powers weren't going to accept it, it shouldn't have been an option.


I think it was a lot to do with lies the poplar press eg. The Sun, having printed over the years, sure as straight bananas


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think it was a lot to do with lies the poplar press eg. The Sun, having printed over the years, sure as straight bananas


I don't.

And the straight bananas, erm bananas, did have some basis in fact due to regulations that were passed and then repealed.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> I don't.
> 
> And the straight bananas, erm bananas, did have some basis in fact due to regulations that were passed and then repealed.


There was a lot that WAS made up, though, or at least exaggerated to point of absurdity. Fishermen being forced to wear hairnets, for one.

One should also remember that Mr Murdoch is on record as saying he doesn't like the EU because the EU won't do what he wants just because he asks them, but the UK government will. And who/what Mr Murdoch orders his newspapers to support can and does make a difference in public opinion and voting outcome.


----------



## Elles

I see Jeremy wants to negotiate a remain in the customs union/ecj etc ‘leave’ deal and let us vote whether to accept it or stay in lol. Mostly remain, or totally remain. Our choice. :Hilarious


----------



## Elles

The conservatives are skirting around the drug pricing controversy. When it comes to a free trade deal with the USA, big pharma, drugs companies are included. The nhs is not, but of course drug prices could increase, we already buy drugs from the USA, so they could be a bargaining chip in a free trade agreement. When asked about it, the conservatives are side stepping and talking about the nhs which isn't included and evading the drugs question. Of course Jeremy is also ignoring that it's about drugs and saying that it's the nhs that is for sale in negotiations.

Jacob Rees-Mogg is in trouble again. I listened to what he actually said about Grenfell and it's very open to interpretation. He could have meant that after Grenfell we'll all ignore advice to stay in burning buildings, but it could also appear that he was saying that the Grenfell people should have ignored advice and left and lacked common sense. I suspect he meant the former, but thinks the latter.

Jo Swinson reminded me of


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> The conservatives are skirting around the drug pricing controversy. When it comes to a free trade deal with the USA, big pharma, drugs companies are included. The nhs is not, but of course drug prices could increase, we already buy drugs from the USA, so they could be a bargaining chip in a free trade agreement. When asked about it, the conservatives are side stepping and talking about the nhs which isn't included and evading the drugs question. Of course Jeremy is also ignoring that it's about drugs and saying that it's the nhs that is for sale in negotiations.
> 
> Jacob Rees-Mogg is in trouble again. I listened to what he actually said about Grenfell and it's very open to interpretation. He could have meant that after Grenfell we'll all ignore advice to stay in burning buildings, but it could also appear that he was saying that the Grenfell people should have ignored advice and left and lacked common sense. I suspect he meant the former, but thinks the latter.
> 
> Jo Swinson reminded me of


OT, but even advising people to leave burning buildings against the stay put advice if that is what is in your building is idiotic.

Interesting piece by a firefighter who was an Grenfell explaining why stay put usually is the sensible thing to do https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...DFbqsN946IY6EPuvHWKrAElVVhBK2recX6qj9a9ehhtRw


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> The conservatives are skirting around the drug pricing controversy. When it comes to a free trade deal with the USA, big pharma, drugs companies are included. The nhs is not, but of course drug prices could increase, we already buy drugs from the USA, so they could be a bargaining chip in a free trade agreement. When asked about it, the conservatives are side stepping and talking about the nhs which isn't included and evading the drugs question. Of course Jeremy is also ignoring that it's about drugs and saying that it's the nhs that is for sale in negotiations.
> 
> Jacob Rees-Mogg is in trouble again. I listened to what he actually said about Grenfell and it's very open to interpretation. He could have meant that after Grenfell we'll all ignore advice to stay in burning buildings, but it could also appear that he was saying that the Grenfell people should have ignored advice and left and lacked common sense. I suspect he meant the former, but thinks the latter.
> 
> Jo Swinson reminded me of


Oh no you're playing MY SONG! And I'm nothing like Jo Swinson .............................. or am I?


----------



## Elles

My brother-in-law is a fire officer, group manager and fire investigation officer, so we’ve had the discussion about Grenfell, the stay put and the recent findings.  I try to avoid the conversations, but I’d guess most of us will do as we’re asked, as we don’t want to make things worse and the advice was based on what should have been happening, which wasn’t of course. I don’t see parliament rushing through laws to prevent it happening again neither, they’ve been too busy making sure brexit doesn’t happen.


----------



## Elles

I bet there’ll be memes with Jo Swinson alongside slightly mad Freddie to compare. :Woot

Have you noticed that now it’s not PC to point with your finger, they’re all pointing with their knuckles instead? unch


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> OT, but even advising people to leave burning buildings against the stay put advice if that is what is in your building is idiotic.
> 
> Interesting piece by a firefighter who was an Grenfell explaining why stay put usually is the sensible thing to do https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...DFbqsN946IY6EPuvHWKrAElVVhBK2recX6qj9a9ehhtRw


That man talks sense. Unlike Rees-Mogg a lot of the time...


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Have you noticed that now it's not PC to point with your finger, they're all pointing with their knuckles instead?


 Oxford (yes, the uni) are banning clapping in case it scares people: they will be doing a ''jazz wave/jazz hands'' instead.


----------



## Calvine

Heard that Hammond resigned/stepped down?? (maybe already posted, in which case, apologies).


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> We did and it hasn't been accepted, why would another be any different.
> 
> It's just insulting to those that made the effort to go and vote out in 2016


Why? It was theoretical Brexit now it is reality. 
Scared people might not like what it really is?


----------



## Elles

Scared people might not like the Eu now they know what it really is.


----------



## Hamilton Trash

JANICE199 said:


> *It's been said start a new thread about the subject if people want to discuss it. So here's the place*


Brexit means Brexit, and that's the end of it.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Scared people might not like the Eu now they know what it really is.


Until they find what the Deal with Trump means...
The Russians did not spend that money on troll factories in vain..
Neither Murdoch or Banks...
If you think being a part of EU is bad enough... wait till post EU medicine prices...

I had the opportunity to work and live in lovely USA, which is a great country.

Until you or your family needs more sophisticated health care.
Imagine insurance companies targeting employers to fire parents of disabled or seriously and chronically ill children?
Employers often offer family package... but if the claims go up their costs go up...so parents made redundant etc...

I saw the level of state education...

No wonder people voted for Trump!!!

I went back to EU.

Custom Union is just common sense. Why delays, border checks- that all will affect the price of our products and is simply a total, total billions of waste.
Better spent on NHS.

The whole idea of Customs Union is to eliminate the huge costs and paperwork.

We talking about environment and are happy to agree to such waste?

WHY? What is better by being out of CU?

It solves the NI border problems, it is saving energy, time, money.

In 2016 Brexit was presented as the promise of reasonable deal and CU was a part of it.
I doubt very much all 52% voted against CU.
Taking UK out of Custom Union is plain stupid.


----------



## Elles

Are you voting for Corbyn? Hopefully the Tories will be pressed harder to answer questions about medicines, big pharma and trade deals, before the election.

At the moment we get better prices from US pharma than US citizens, because in our case it’s the NHS and government buying them, not insurance companies paying through the nose from what I can gather. This shouldn’t change after brexit, unless whoever is in charge our end and Donald Trump come to some arrangement over free trade. Why the government would want to pay more for our prescription drugs to gain in some other vague area I’m not entirely sure. 

As I’m over 60 I don’t pay for medicines. Nor do the poor, or pensioners, or the disabled, or the chronically sick, or children. Everyone else pays a standard prescription charge, so who is going to pay these newly inflated prices? We are Britain, not Russia and not America. The Eu don’t control our NHS and the country already buy drugs from America.

Why on earth would employers pay health insurance for chronically sick children in the U.K. and sack their employees over it? Children get free health care in the U.K. You couldn’t pay me to live in America. Why are you afraid of the U.K. becoming America, or Russia just by leaving the Eu?


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder when they cried, "Taking Back Control", that also meant from Scotland and Wales?

This is interesting if their respective parliament's set differing standards.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...and-wales-food-safety-standards-a9186386.html


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> As I'm over 60 I don't pay for medicines. Nor do the poor, or pensioners, or the disabled, or the chronically sick, or children. *Everyone else pays a standard prescription charge*,


Only if you live in England.....


----------



## Elles

MilleD said:


> Only if you live in England.....


Oops.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I wonder when they cried, "Taking Back Control", that also meant from Scotland and Wales?
> 
> This is interesting if their respective parliament's set differing standards.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...and-wales-food-safety-standards-a9186386.html
> View attachment 421563


Even more proof that standards won't be lowered after brexit. No one wants borders in the U.K. and if lowering standards means hard borders and custom checks, it's another good reason not to lower them.


----------



## Magyarmum

Ironic isn't it that 30 years after pulling down the Berlin Wall, the EU is spending a fortune building them?

https://www.tni.org/en/businessbuildingwalls

*The Business of Building Walls*

As well as patrolling them with the EU "army"!

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-establishes-first-permanent-border-security-corps/a-51177580

*EU establishes first permanent border security corps*
The European Union has adopted regulations that establish its first permanent, standalone border security force. The move will increase the bloc's current security forces nearly tenfold.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Even more proof that standards won't be lowered after brexit. No one wants borders in the U.K. and if lowering standards means hard borders and custom checks, it's another good reason not to lower them.


You believe that? I feel sorry for you.

It's all about bulldozing rights and lowering of standards to please the USA. Remember- Trump wants a deal on his terms.

This is what Brexit's all about.
You voted for this.
Get over it.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Ironic isn't it that 30 years after pulling down the Berlin Wall, the EU is spending a fortune building them?
> 
> https://www.tni.org/en/businessbuildingwalls
> 
> *The Business of Building Walls*
> 
> As well as patrolling them with the EU "army"!
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/eu-establishes-first-permanent-border-security-corps/a-51177580
> 
> *EU establishes first permanent border security corps*
> The European Union has adopted regulations that establish its first permanent, standalone border security force. The move will increase the bloc's current security forces nearly tenfold.


Not between member states though.

They'll be a barrier for the UK of course as they'll soon no longer be members. Dear Theresa wanted that as she detests who she called the, "Queue jumpers".

Surely, that's what you wanted???


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Not between member states though.
> 
> They'll be a wall for the UK of course as they'll soon no longer be members.
> 
> Surely, that's what you wanted???


What makes you certain there are no walls between member states? I can think of two off the top of my head!

Try reading the article again! And this one ..................

http://www.cadtm.org/Building-walls

*Building walls*








Ten out of 28 member states (Spain, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, Austria, Slovenia, United Kingdom, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania) have built walls on their borders to prevent immigration, all of them belonging to the Schengen area except for Bulgaria and the United Kingdom.








One country that is not a member of the European Union but belongs to the Schengen area has built a wall to prevent migration (Norway). Another (Slovakia) has built internal walls for racial segregation. A total of 13 walls have been built on EU borders or inside the Schengen area.








Two countries, both members of the European Union and the Schengen area, (Spain and Hungary) have built two walls on their borders for controlling migration. Another two (Austria and the United Kingdom) have built walls on their shared borders with Schengen countries (Slovenia and France respectively). A country outside of the European Union, but part of of the so-called Balkan route (Macedonia), has built a wall to prevent migration.

You have no idea what I want so please do not assume!


----------



## KittenKong

I


----------



## Elles

“This is what Brexit's all about.
You voted for this.
Get over it.”

Donald Trump was not President of the USA when we had the referendum, Obama was. I can’t vote in American elections. 

I voted to remain in the Eu.

Brexit is not about America. It’s about leaving the Eu. It is then up to this country and its citizens to maintain, or improve standards, not the Eu. Which is as it should be. Corbyn or Swinson could win the GE.


----------



## Elles

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...s-don-t-give-a-f-k-in-joe-interview-1-6370262

Caroline Lucas saying it as it is. 

She isn't leader of the Greens now, don't forget.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Not between member states though.
> 
> They'll be a barrier for the UK of course as they'll soon no longer be members. Dear Theresa wanted that as she detests who she called the, "Queue jumpers".
> 
> Surely, that's what you wanted???


So yet again, the EU can do no wrong, even though you have rubbished the UK for just tightening our immigration criteria


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> So yet again, the EU can do no wrong, even though you have rubbished the UK for just tightening our immigration criteria


Not at all. The EU have every right to have border controls _outside the EEA member states._ I don't agree with FoM with none EEA members.

As for the UK, we've enjoyed the freedom to work across the same member states over the past 20 years or so.

What I don't agree with is the UK isolating itself from the rest of Europe just to affiliate itself with the USA.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Not at all. The EU have every right to have border controls _outside the EEA member states._ I don't agree with FoM with none EEA members.


  

Personally I'd rather have CANZUK, we have at least more in common.
However I still don't believe in FOM. I don't mind anyone moving anywhere in the world but in this day and age, checks need to be done more vigorously


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Not at all. *The EU have every right to have border controls outside the EEA member states. I don't agree with FoM with none EEA members.*
> 
> As for the UK, we've enjoyed the freedom to work across the same member states over the past 20 years or so.
> 
> What I don't agree with is the UK isolating itself from the rest of Europe just to affiliate itself with the USA.


That statement doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "outside"?

If you'd read the articles properly you'd know that there are fences/walls *between* EU member states.

https://data2.unhcr.org/fr/documents/download/55249

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/a-world-of-walls-europes-lessons-in-border-barriers

*Walled world: Lessons from Europe's border barriers*


----------



## KittenKong

What you probably didn't see on the BBC evening news yesterday. Brilliant!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemainEU.org/permalink/414577752545803/


----------



## Elles

It wasn’t an accident, they knew who he was when they did the interview. The bbc weren’t looking for leave voters and at the beginning John said he was a remain and Labour voting farmer. I thought it was good that he had his say, but implying that the bbc is biased against remain and it was all a terrible mistake is stretching it.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> What you probably didn't see on the BBC evening news yesterday. Brilliant!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemainEU.org/permalink/414577752545803/
> View attachment 422299


The above link says the post has either been removed or doesn't work.

No sign of it either on the FB RemainEU.org group page!


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> The above link says the post has either been removed or doesn't work.
> 
> No sign of it either on the FB RemainEU.org group page!


Just worked for me...


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> It wasn't an accident, they knew who he was when they did the interview. The bbc weren't looking for leave voters and at the beginning John said he was a remain and Labour voting farmer. I thought it was good that he had his say, but implying that the bbc is biased against remain and it was all a terrible mistake is stretching it.


Then, why didn't the main BBC news include this, rather than the usual, "I'm voting Tory 'cos Boris will get Brexit done" types on their main news programmes?

This was live on their news channel earlier in the day.

Funny how both The Sun and the BBC covered Bishop Auckland yesterday......

I guess you believe this was a genuine error too. They were forced to admit it when they were caught out, but no apology given on their main news bulletin, the one most viewers watch.

I mean, how can you 'accidentally' use a recording from 2016 on covering a news event?


----------



## KittenKong

This is brilliant.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Just worked for me...


Not for me but could be due to EU copyright legislation.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemainEU.org/permalink/414577752545803/

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=remaineu.org: stop brexit&epa=SEARCH_BOX


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> If you'd read the articles properly you'd know that there are fences/walls *between* EU member states.


Which also proves the propaganda that the EU allows unrestricted immigration is rubbish.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Not for me but could be due to EU copyright legislation.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemainEU.org/permalink/414577752545803/
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=remaineu.org: stop brexit&epa=SEARCH_BOX


Possibly, or BBC geographic limitations. It's showing as top post for me (no, I'm not a member of the group)


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Then, why didn't the main BBC news include this, rather than the usual, "I'm voting Tory 'cos Boris will get Brexit done" types on their main news programmes?
> 
> This was live on their news channel earlier in the day.
> 
> Funny how both The Sun and the BBC covered Bishop Auckland yesterday......
> 
> I guess you believe this was a genuine error too. They were forced to admit it when they were caught out, but no apology given on their main news bulletin, the one most viewers watch.
> 
> I mean, how can you 'accidentally' use a recording from 2016 on covering a news event?
> 
> View attachment 422300
> View attachment 422301


I don't actually know the significance of the wreath laying, but I didn't say the farmer interview was an error, genuine or otherwise, so how can I think this was a "genuine error too", when I don't think the other was? The beeb were out interviewing people and one of the people they interviewed was a Labour and remain supporting farmer. I don't see what's wrong with it, or why they wouldn't. The beeb often feature Remainers on their programmes. The interview was live and they had other things to cover. I doubt there's a cover up, or anything sinister in the beeb's behaviour on this occasion. Most of the bbc powers support and voted to remain, its the usual sensationalism.

The farmer was very eloquent and clear, I don't doubt he's given this opinion more than once and good for him.


----------



## Elles

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...terview-on-brexit-and-boris-johnson-1-6372792

Can you see this one @Magyarmum ?


----------



## Elles

https://thetab.com/uk/2019/11/12/th...e-student-during-general-election-2019-131480

Particularly enjoyed the Lib Dem and Brexit Party students. :Hilarious

I wonder what my Facebook says about me. I get the LadBible, mobile games, cleaning products and student/university publications advertised. Alongside my horsey stuff which I expect. This tab article is the first political one I've ever seen on it. Admittedly I don't use Facebook much, the only groups I'm a member of are my horsey ones and most of my 'friends' are actual family, so maybe the algorithms struggle a bit.  If you have Facebook, what does your Facebook say about you?

I think I'm young male student who likes a bit of banter and needs to tidy up more.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I don't actually know the significance of the wreath laying


I haven't been following in any depth, but I believe BoJo managed to make a couple of major gaffes whilst trying to lay his wreath at the Cenotaph - moving to lay the wreath before the correct point in the proceedings and laying the wreath upside down, I think. I have heard comments about his state of appearance too (ranging from 'dishevelled' to 'inebriated').

Interestingly, whilst the BBC say it is an honest error caused by the pressure of producing a news bulletin to a deadline (which _may _be the case), they were using the 2016 footage on breakfast TV the next morning, so it's not like they it was the lunchtime news straight after the ceremony. Also, the 2016 footage was of a green wreath and this year the wreath was of red poppies (not to mention a completely different lineup and order of wreath layers overall), so you'd think SOMEONE might have successfully played spot the difference when reviewing the test edits...


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...terview-on-brexit-and-boris-johnson-1-6372792
> 
> Can you see this one @Magyarmum ?


Thank you! I don't see anything to get excited about, just someone giving his honest opinion!


----------



## KittenKong

Jesthar said:


> I haven't been following in any depth, but I believe BoJo managed to make a couple of major gaffes whilst trying to lay his wreath at the Cenotaph - moving to lay the wreath before the correct point in the proceedings and laying the wreath upside down, I think. I have heard comments about his state of appearance too (ranging from 'dishevelled' to 'inebriated').
> 
> Interestingly, whilst the BBC say it is an honest error caused by the pressure of producing a news bulletin to a deadline (which _may _be the case), they were using the 2016 footage on breakfast TV the next morning, so it's not like they it was the lunchtime news straight after the ceremony. Also, the 2016 footage was of a green wreath and this year the wreath was of red poppies (not to mention a completely different lineup and order of wreath layers overall), so you'd think SOMEONE might have successfully played spot the difference when reviewing the test edits...


It's not the first time the BBC have been caught out for this sort of thing though is it.


----------



## Elles

Yes, it’s fake news, like it says. Don’t watch the bbc if you don’t like it. Watch Sky news Australia instead.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sla-electric-car-gigafactory-uk-a9200981.html


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> Yes, it's fake news, like it says. Don't watch the bbc if you don't like it. Watch Sky news Australia instead.


*But it isn't just the BBC that are feeding us lies. All of our main stream media are. There is one thing i am so thankful for i this day and age, and that is the internet. We have been fed lies for years. But thank god ( if there is one) that we can search other means for the truth.*


----------



## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *But it isn't just the BBC that are feeding us lies. All of our main stream media are. There is one thing i am so thankful for i this day and age, and that is the internet. We have been fed lies for years. But thank god ( if there is one) that we can search other means for the truth.*


I've been saying that for years. ITV News too.

Yet most still see the BBC News as a reliable and impartial source of information.

Nowadays, I'm even wary of what The Guardian prints, let alone anyone else. They were forced to correct their headline that the government had _banned_ fracking when they'd only suspended it.

Ironically, even the BBC news website got that right!


----------



## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> I've been saying that for years. ITV News too.
> 
> Yet most still see the BBC News as a reliable and impartial source of information.
> 
> Nowadays, I'm even wary of what The Guardian prints, let alone anyone else. They were forced to correct their headline that the government had _banned_ fracking when they'd only suspended it.
> 
> Ironically, even the BBC news website got that right!


*I can't remember the last time i watched the news or had a newspaper. I'm finding social media the best place to find what is really going on. But i bet, we are classed as the nutters and conspiracy idiots *


----------



## Magyarmum

*THE DAILY MASH
*
*How to be a deeply unlikeable Remainer*
13th November 2019









*BREXITERS are frequently criticised for being shouty and unreasonable, but - fair's fair - Remainers can be obnoxious too. Here's how: *

*Keep mentioning old Brexiters dying*

Is it normal to keep enthusiastically pointing out that many Leavers will soon be coffin-dodging no longer? Will it win support to tell people that it's a good thing that their brexit-backing grandmother will soon be dead?

*Assume you are very, very clever*

Brexiters may believe risible things about bendy bananas and Atlantic convoys, but it does not follow that you are extremely intelligent. If you think leaving the EU means you and your children can never go to Europe again you might not be the brainiac you believe.

*Lean on stereotyping*

'Metropolitan elites' is a lazy stereotype, but so are 'thick Geordies' and 'retired Home Counties racists'. Such people exist in large numbers, but excluding South Shields-based rocket scientists, the Tunbridge Wells Over-65s Communist Party of Great Britain doesn't help your cause.

*Drone on about London going independent*

The powerhouse economy of London might work as a separate city state, but how realistic is it, really? Britain's crumbling rail services make getting north of Watford tough enough without border checks, and blockades by angry Northerners would see the city starve in a day.

*Be a psychopath on Twitter*

Be as unhinged as possible, perhaps screaming 'THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING AWAY MY HUMAN RIGHTS MUST BE MADE TO PAY', even if in real life you are a Guardian reader who gently captures spiders and releases them into the garden.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> It's not the first time the BBC have been caught out for this sort of thing though is it.


It couldn't possibly of been to save upset to veterans or others that have lost someone?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> It couldn't possibly of been to save upset to veterans or others that have lost someone?


If it was (and I do mean IF), then it's a pretty stupid way to try to do it, as in this day and age you are GOING to get caught out and just end up causing an even bigger ruckus... 

Even sympathetic editing of the original footage to soften the impact of the faux pas would have been quickly spotted and commented on, how much more so historic footage from a completely different year with a completely different wreath? :Facepalm At least if you chose to show just the less embarrassing bits and use similar editing for the rest of the report, you could call it a stylistic choice. enguin


----------



## rona

So, bad judgement.........why is everything a conspiracy these days?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422317
> 
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sla-electric-car-gigafactory-uk-a9200981.html


Why did he chose Germany and not any other member state ? They've all missed out too. Being part of the EU didnt help them .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Why did he chose Germany and not any other member state ? They've all missed out too. Being part of the EU didnt help them .


No, it didn't but confirmed the UK, who would have been contenders were immediately ruled out.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> No, it didn't but confirmed the UK, who would have been contenders were immediately ruled out.


and you think we could have beaten Germany to it ?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tories lie. They will be actually worse for economy than any imaginable Labour Government. Or Lib Dem.

This election might give them the power to drag us out on No Deal in 2020.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Tories lie. They will be actually worse for economy than any imaginable Labour Government. Or Lib Dem.
> 
> This election might give them the power to drag us out on No Deal in 2020.


We can but hope, but I fear they will pass some inappropriate deal


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> It couldn't possibly of been to save upset to veterans or others that have lost someone?


I haven't forgotten the Michael Foot, "Donkey Jacket" controversy. The BBC didn't try and disguise that!


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> We can but hope, but I fear they will pass some inappropriate deal


No Deal will really, really hurt the economy, not millionaires but millions.

ERG don't care, they will actually gain on it.

Those who depend on NHS, on social care, on affordable medicines.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> I haven't forgotten the Michael Foot, "Donkey Jacket" controversy.


Eh? I have . . . pray tell!


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Eh? I have . . . pray tell!


Pots calling kettles black?????????????

Here you go ..........

http://fashioninpolitics.blogspot.com/2010/03/michael-foot-and-his-donkey-jacket.html

what "we" fail to mention is that Corbyn was slammed last year for looking like a tramp at the Cenotaph service.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...mmed-looking-like-tramp-Cenotaph-service.html

*Jeremy's Michael Foot moment! 'Scruffy and disrespectful' Corbyn is slammed for his appearance at Cenotaph service - 37 years after ex-Labour leader was mocked for wearing a donkey jacket*


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Pots calling kettles black?????????????
> 
> *Jeremy's Michael Foot moment! 'Scruffy and disrespectful' Corbyn is slammed for his appearance at Cenotaph service - 37 years after ex-Labour leader was mocked for wearing a donkey jacket*


But either of them were Prime Minster.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> But either of them were Prime Minster.


No, but they were leaders of the Opposition and as such were representing the hundred of thousands of people who'd voted them into that position.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> No, but they were leaders of the Opposition and as such were representing the hundred of thousands of people who'd voted them into that position.


Fair enough, but with things like this, scruff bag (PM) represents the whole country.


----------



## Elles

According to the Guardian Mahyar Tousi is hard right. They haven’t watched his YouTube channel then. :Hilarious If they think he’s hard right, what do they call the actual hard right?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> According to the Guardian Mahyar Tousi is hard right. They haven't watched his YouTube channel then. :Hilarious If they think he's hard right, what do they call the actual hard right?


Exactly! But then if you're left of centre as the Guardian is, anything in the other direction could be considered to be hard right!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/

*







*


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.ft.com/content/8e82e01c...egmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> and you think we could have beaten Germany to it ?


Wouldn't have been impossible. Nissan had the opportunity to open a European factory in the late 1980s. They chose Sunderland after, it has to be said, the government at the time had encouraged them to invest there.

Ironic to think the same political party, in its far right form's, policies to end the single market could threaten its future.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422487
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/8e82e01c...egmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6


Pretty please can we have some of our money back to fix the flooding?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422487
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/8e82e01c...egmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6


Something else you've no doubt copied from FB or Twitter without checking the facts first!

This FT article is from *February 25th 2016

*


----------



## Elles

Magyarmum said:


> Something else you've no doubt copied from FB or Twitter without checking the facts first!
> 
> This FT article is from *February 25th 2016
> *


Its behind a paywall, so I couldn't look at it. Thanks for the fact check. 

Although to be honest, the sentiment still stands, regardless of the date. After Brexit we hopefully won't need to ask for money back from the Eu when we get flooded, depending on what deal we get and if we actually do leave.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Its behind a paywall, so I couldn't look at it. Thanks for the fact check.
> 
> Although to be honest, the sentiment still stands, regardless of the date. After Brexit we hopefully won't need to ask for money back from the Eu when we get flooded, depending on what deal we get and if we actually do leave.


The FT link that was posted on the thread was behind a paywall for me as well, but not when I googled it which was how I could see the date.

This is it ................ fingers crossed it doesn't disappear behind a paywall again!

https://www.ft.com/content/8e82e01c-dbb6-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818

*UK makes last minute bid for EU flood funds*


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 422487
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/8e82e01c...egmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6


 As we are still contributing massive amounts, I cannot see why not.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Wouldn't have been impossible. Nissan had the opportunity to open a European factory in the late 1980s. They chose Sunderland after, it has to be said, the government at the time had encouraged them to invest there.


Maybe but I bet it would be like the football /rugby . Get knocked out in the first round or get knocked out in the final ! 
Mrs Thatcher was PM then , I expect that had a lot to do with it.


----------



## Elles

Funniest thing I've seen in ages. :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

*Brexit and me: Retiring to the Netherlands - for the skiing*

How are British nationals in the Netherlands coping with Brexit? In the run-up to Brexit and beyond, we are talking to Brits about how the issue is affecting them personally, what they are planning to do to regulate their stay, and how they view the UK.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/brexit-and-me-retiring-to-the-netherlands-for-the-skiing/


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> *Brexit and me: Retiring to the Netherlands - for the skiing*
> 
> How are British nationals in the Netherlands coping with Brexit? In the run-up to Brexit and beyond, we are talking to Brits about how the issue is affecting them personally, what they are planning to do to regulate their stay, and how they view the UK.
> 
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/brexit-and-me-retiring-to-the-netherlands-for-the-skiing/


Some friends of mine are in Hungary at the moment house hunting.

They've both recently retired and are in their early 60's and once their UK house is sold they'll move here permanently..


----------



## JANICE199

*I was one that wanted out of the EU, i have changed my mind. If i had my way, i'd count the losses and stay in.*


----------



## kimthecat

Ive had enough. Im going to sell up and go and live in Spain! :Hilarious (No , not really )


----------



## Elles

JANICE199 said:


> *I was one that wanted out of the EU, i have changed my mind. If i had my way, i'd count the losses and stay in.*


Seriously? I wouldn't have guessed in a million years that you were a leave voter. 

On saying that, some seem to think I voted leave, although I voted remain, so I suppose it's hard to tell.

I'd rather cut our losses and get it done. It's what people voted for and if the majority thought they'd been fooled and were now keen to stay in, I would expect the Lib Dems to be doing a lot better and Corbyn to be way ahead of Boris. They're both dangerous idiots in my view, but it seems people think Boris is the lesser threat and would rather leave the Eu than have Corbyn, his socialist buddies and momentum running the country. I wonder if daily attacks on Boris will change people's minds. I look forward to reading tomorrow's scandal. Will it be something Corbyn did in 1973 or something Boris did at school?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Seriously? I wouldn't have guessed in a million years that you were a leave voter.
> 
> On saying that, some seem to think I voted leave, although I voted remain, so I suppose it's hard to tell.
> 
> I'd rather cut our losses and get it done. It's what people voted for and if the majority thought they'd been fooled and were now keen to stay in, I would expect the Lib Dems to be doing a lot better and Corbyn to be way ahead of Boris. They're both dangerous idiots in my view, but it seems people think Boris is the lesser threat and would rather leave the Eu than have Corbyn, his socialist buddies and momentum running the country. I wonder if daily attacks on Boris will change people's minds. I look forward to reading tomorrow's scandal. Will it be something Corbyn did in 1973 or something Boris did at school?


Here are a couple for you to be going on with ........

https://www.timesofisrael.com/labou...panel-alongside-hamas-terror-leaders-in-2012/

*Labour head Corbyn sat on panel alongside Hamas terror leaders in 2012*

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...es-corbyn-allies-praised-socialist-venezuela/

*Video: The times that Corbyn and his allies praised socialist Venezuela*


----------



## Elles

Looks like the latest is a scandal about Diane Abbott's son being arrested for biting and spitting at a police officer last Friday and the complete silence from the mainstream media, bbc, sky news etc.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/04/dian...ault-biting-spitting-police-officer-11268083/


----------



## MilleD

saartje said:


> *Brexit and me: Retiring to the Netherlands - for the skiing*


That's possibly the worst reason I've ever heard to move to a flat country. Weird.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MilleD said:


> That's possibly the worst reason I've ever heard to move to a flat country. Weird.


Plus not much snow... ?


----------



## Elles

Looks good to me.

https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resorts/netherlands/

Looks like my kind of ski resorts.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Looks like the latest is a scandal about Diane Abbott's son being arrested for biting and spitting at a police officer last Friday and the complete silence from the mainstream media, bbc, sky news etc.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/04/dian...ault-biting-spitting-police-officer-11268083/


What's the betting he'll say they were racist?


----------



## Elles

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/johnny-mercer-defends-dianne-abbott-3606625

Johnny Mercer has defended a tweet he made about Diane Abbott after being accused of racism.[/URL]
The MP candidate for Plymouth Moor View was tweeting about a "wonderful lady" he met out door-knocking in his constituency when Ms Abbott, the country's first black female MP, came up in conversation.

The tweet said: 'This wonderful lady just made my day. Son in the military. Said she's convinced Diane Abbott think MI5 is a motorway, and she doesn't want her in charge of security. Couldn't disagree...'

A second tweet said: 'She also told me Diane had told her Labour were going to land a man on the sun. Jeremy told her top stop being so stupid and that would never happen, but Diane replied that it was ok because they would do it at night. I think she's on the right track in life.'


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/johnny-mercer-defends-dianne-abbott-3606625
> 
> 
> Johnny Mercer has defended a tweet he made about Diane Abbott after being accused of racism.
> The MP candidate for Plymouth Moor View was tweeting about a "wonderful lady" he met out door-knocking in his constituency when Ms Abbott, the country's first black female MP, came up in conversation.
> 
> The tweet said: 'This wonderful lady just made my day. Son in the military. Said she's convinced Diane Abbott think MI5 is a motorway, and she doesn't want her in charge of security. Couldn't disagree...'
> 
> A second tweet said: 'She also told me Diane had told her Labour were going to land a man on the sun. Jeremy told her top stop being so stupid and that would never happen, but Diane replied that it was ok because they would do it at night. I think she's on the right track in life.'


How is that racist??


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Plus not much snow... ?


Not on a normal day


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> Looks good to me.
> 
> https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resorts/netherlands/
> 
> Looks like my kind of ski resorts.


The intro talks as if they are outside!


----------



## Guest

Mum and Dad could not bring themselves to vote for anyone of the Candidates in this General Election. They are staying neuteral and shredded their election papers. So far the last 3 years has been a complete mess, costing the United Kingdom a fortune for this mess and the United Kingdom has not left like promised by the last 3 Prime Ministers (Cameron said he would act upon the referendum result and never did, Theresa May just kept getting extensions and Johnson said the United Kingdom would leave at the end of the last extension and now promises to take the United Kingdom out by the 31st January 2020). The European Union 27 Leaders await to get an answer to what the United Kingdom wants to do next.

Corbyn promises to use the magic money trees growing in his magical forest.

Johnson is continuing his Brexit stance.

The Brexit party is falling to pieces before Farage's eyes.

Lib Dems have changed their stance on their election campaign slogan of revoking article 50 if they win.

This time next week the United Kingdom Elections take place. Will be interesting to see what the results are on Friday the 13th.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear....









https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ssy-ambassador-boris-johnson-us-a9236151.html


----------



## Elles

I didn't expect that one. Civil servant resigns after being expected to use partisan language and half truths when talking to the Americans about Brexit. No Sir Humphrey was she.


----------



## Elles

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...rew-neil-downing-street-phone-calls-1-6412079

When asked whether Boris would do the Neil interview, Michael Gove gave a number and said phone Downing Street.

"Gove gave the telephone number out in response to a request to rate, on a scale of one to 10, the chances of the prime minister facing Neil's scrutiny. "That number would be: 0207 930 4433, that's the Downing Street number, and if you ring the prime minister's diary secretary she will know what the prime minister is going to do. I'm not the prime minister's diary secretary."

Callers are now greeted with a voice message prior to getting through that says: "We are unable to give out any information relating to the prime minister's diary.""

:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

https://infacts.org/trump-sabotages-brexiters-last-ditch-safety-net/


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://infacts.org/trump-sabotages-brexiters-last-ditch-safety-net/
> View attachment 425205


Old News!

It's been on the cards for the past two years, so should have come as no surprise to anyone who'swell read!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36367246

*Trump could cause world trade system to freeze up after vetoing appointment of judges, diplomats fear*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Trump will sign a deal with China next year before election in USA .
That is a build up.
Markets will soar.
At least such is the plan.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Trump will sign a deal with China next year before election in USA .
> That is a build up.
> Markets will soar.
> At least such is the plan.


Don't hold your breathe .............................

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/12/hig...ting-thursday-to-debate-us-china-tariffs.html

*High-stakes White House meeting expected Thursday to debate US-China tariffs: sources*

POTUS is in a foul temper because the Democrats have formally charged him with abuse of power and obstructing Congress which if their case is strong enough could see him out of the WH with a flea in his ear

https://www.euronews.com/2019/12/10...zOTY0ZDU2MGRmYzYwMzU3ZjgyM2UzZjgwMWVmNDcifQ==

*Democrats unveil formal impeachment charges against Donald Trump*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> Don't hold your breathe .............................
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/12/hig...ting-thursday-to-debate-us-china-tariffs.html
> 
> *High-stakes White House meeting expected Thursday to debate US-China tariffs: sources*
> 
> POTUS is in a foul temper because the Democrats have formally charged him with abuse of power and obstructing Congress which if their case is strong enough could see him out of the WH with a flea in his ear
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/12/10/democrats-unveil-formal-impeachment-charges-against-donald-trump?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=democrats-unveil-formal-impeachment-charges-against-donald-trump&_ope=eyJndWlkIjoiMGQzOTY0ZDU2MGRmYzYwMzU3ZjgyM2UzZjgwMWVmNDcifQ==
> 
> *Democrats unveil formal impeachment charges against Donald Trump*


I dearly want him out but still doubtful.

Again Democrats have a message Stop Trump. But what after that?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I dearly want him out but still doubtful.
> 
> Again Democrats have a message Stop Trump. But what after that?


Ive lost track with the impeachment thing . I dont think his own side will vote for it even though they have proof.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Ive lost tract with the impeachment thing . I dont think his own side will vote for it even though they have proof.


I don't think Trump's impeachment will be successful.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Magyarmum said:


> Don't hold your breathe .............................
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/12/hig...ting-thursday-to-debate-us-china-tariffs.html
> 
> *High-stakes White House meeting expected Thursday to debate US-China tariffs: sources*
> 
> POTUS is in a foul temper because the Democrats have formally charged him with abuse of power and obstructing Congress which if their case is strong enough could see him out of the WH with a flea in his ear
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/2019/12/10/democrats-unveil-formal-impeachment-charges-against-donald-trump?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=en&utm_content=democrats-unveil-formal-impeachment-charges-against-donald-trump&_ope=eyJndWlkIjoiMGQzOTY0ZDU2MGRmYzYwMzU3ZjgyM2UzZjgwMWVmNDcifQ==
> 
> *Democrats unveil formal impeachment charges against Donald Trump*


I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath that the democrats can remove Trump from office via impeachment, the Republicans wont vote to impeach their own president!

Trump will no doubt win the 2020 election then in 2024 after two terms he will have to step down but his offspring will take office and we will have a Trump empire for many years to come.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I don't think Trump's impeachment will be successful.


Trump probably will be impeached simply because of the 431 seats in the Senate 233 are held by Democrats who could impeach Trump without Republican support. Whether he will be removed from office is another thing altogether though, and I think I'm correct in saying that even if he was he could still be eligible to stand for re election.

I have CNN TV and have watched all the public inquiries and as you would expect despite there being some compelling evidence from highly credible non political witnesses such as Dr Fiona Hill, Ambassador Bill Taylor amongst others the Republicans are ridiculing the evidence as fake news and accusing the Democrats of having plotted to get rid of POTUS from the day of his inauguration.
.
There's still a lot of information that's being withheld by the WH and probably more importantly witnesses who've been forbidden to testify by POTUS. One wonders if someone like John Bolton who allegedly said he "wanted no part of this "drug" deal, decided to testify whether it would be sufficient to turn opinion not only of the Republicans, but Trump's base ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...achment-of-a-u-s-president-work-idUSKBN1XV2FP

*How does impeachment of a U.S. president work?*


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/13/7876...1787&utm_campaign=news&utm_id=44811556&orgid=-

*House Judiciary Committee Approves 2 Articles Of Impeachment Against Trump*

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/13/787496291/trump-dismisses-charges-against-him-as-impeachment-lite-is-he-right

*'Impeachment Lite'? How Articles Against Trump Compare To Clinton's And Nixon's*


----------



## Magyarmum

Copied and posted from British in Hungary Group on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/jon.ainge1...iC3huLwgZyYuSpCQlY-i2Qzlro6gfVhA&__tn__=<,P-R
*Jon Ainge*
* shared a link.*
14 mins ·

















A bit of light reading for you all..... A BIT OF CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT
Morning everyone. I'm picking up in BiE and around our various country groups that there's a bit of confusion about the Withdrawal Agreement and what happens to it if there should be no trade agreement by the end of the transition period. So here's a quick clarification.
1. Given the large Tory majority, it's almost certain that the current Withdrawal Agreement (WA) will be passed by the UK parliament in January, or possibly even sooner. It then has to be ratified by the European Parliament, but it's pretty much a given that the UK will leave the EU on 31 January 2020 and the WA will come into force then.
2. The citizens' rights chapter of the WA remains largely unchanged from the original Theresa May version, and it's this that will cover the future rights of British people who are legally resident in an EU27 country on the last day of the transition period. It's EU wide, and although each EU27 country will institute its own procedures for residence cards etc, they cannot alter the provisions of the WA.
3. Most of our rights remain unchanged until the end of the transition period. This includes freedom of movement, so it will still be possible to move from the UK to the EU during that period. We do however lose the right to stand and vote in local and European elections on Brexit day.
4. The media has been talking for some time about the possibility of 'no deal' at the end of transition - ie if there is no trade agreement and the UK ends up crashing out of the EU on WTO terms. However - and this is important - the Withdrawal Agreement would remain in place as an international treaty and the rights that it includes for us would remain covered. They cannot be removed even in the absence of a trade agreement. Once the Withdrawal Agreement is in force, we will be covered by it for our lifetimes whatever happens with future negotiations and would not default to the no deal plans put in place by our host countries. So please don't think that the rights it covers for us are temporary - they're not and will cover you for your lifetime.
If you want a quick brush up on exactly what the WA does (and doesn't) cover, have a look at this article I wrote recently for France Rights - it's equally applicable whatever your country. https://www.francerights.info/…/whats-big-deal-part-1-what-…

https://www.francerights.info/2019/...Ek3kpDtlLiiKrjkvDwbQiobBXDU_SbE6yOrQI1KxYaMfg

*What's the big deal? Part 1: what does the draft Withdrawal Agreement mean for us?*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Good byeEU, welcome USA... Trump overjoyed with the perspective of a great deal.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> I don't think Trump's impeachment will be successful.


No: nor would I be surprised if he got in again! How many people thought he would last time?


----------



## KittenKong

As it turns out, she did.
Good riddance, and to Corbyn.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...re-than-anybody-else-to-make-it-happen/15/12/


----------



## Happy Paws2

So we will leaving and now without a safety net in parliament. I really worry about a deal with the USA and our health service, I just don't believe it's safe in BJ hands.


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> So we will leaving and now without a safety net in parliament. I really worry about a deal with the USA and our health service, I just don't believe it's safe in BJ hands.


*I agree with you. Latest is he is trying to make it so that he can stay in for 10 years.  If only people knew just what they were voting for. :Bawling*


----------



## Elles

:Hilarious

You’ve had how many years now to enlighten the poor dumb folk who have no idea what they’re voting for?


----------



## Satori

Calvine said:


> No: nor would I be surprised if he got in again! How many people thought he would last time?


I thought his victory last time was quite predictable. Not quite certain, but quite certainly predictable. The parallels with our own election are interesting. The finest quality of President Trump was that he was not Hilary Clinton just as the finest quality of Prime Minister Johnson was that he was not Jeremy Corbyn. I expect both Trump and Johnson will serve more than one term because, let's face it, lefties aren't the fastest of learners.


----------



## Calvine

Satori said:


> he was not Hilary Clinton


That was why I thought he might win . . . and may do again, depending on the competition.


----------



## kimthecat

OMG a Nazi cat  What ever next!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206361151673683969


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Babylon Bee*

Santa Claus Accused Of Quid Pro Quo For Giving Children Gifts In Exchange For Good Behavior
December 14th, 2019








430.4kSHARE
57.7kSHARE
SHARE

U.S.-Legislators have begun to hold hearings on impeaching Santa Claus after an overheard conversation seemed to imply he was offering a quid pro quo: gifts in exchange for good behavior.

FBI agents spied on Claus at various malls as he repeatedly said things like, "Sure, I'll get you a pony. But first, I need you to do something for me... be a good little boy!" The FBI was able to obtain a FISA warrant to spy on Claus, because it's easier to get a FISA warrant than to get a Costco membership.

"Ho ho noooooo!" Santa Claus cried as investigators leaped out and cuffed him at a Dayton, OH mall. "Not good! Sad!"

"It was a perfect conversation," Claus said, defending himself in a series of fiery tweets. "Absolutely perfect. I was simply talking to little Billy and asked him to keep tabs on his sister, Sally, who has been involved in some corruption. Who doesn't want to stop corruption? Did I offer Billy a new Nintendo Switch in exchange for his good behavior? Possibly. Am I planning on giving Sally coal because she's a little punk? Maybe. Where's my lawyer?"

Unfortunately, he was assigned a public defender, who turned out to be Rudy Giuliani.


----------



## KittenKong

God bless America...

You were warned.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47036119


----------



## Elles

Who cares? Old news, from January. Don’t eat animals. As for the drugs, like it said, ‘more’, we already buy drugs from USA. If they’re cheaper than elsewhere, I expect the NHS will buy them. I presume Boris doesn’t personally put in the order and it’ll be NHS staff doing it, such as doctors and pharmacists.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> God bless America...
> 
> You were warned.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47036119


Why bother repeating yourself trying to scaremonger people as this did not work the first time around? Brexit is happening. To be honest there is a sigh of relief that there is now a mandate to end all the bickering that has been going on for the last 3 years.

This is what Lord Heseltine said 2 days ago:-
*Lord Heseltine concedes remain campaign 'has lost' saying 'we have to live with Brexit'*

Former Conservative cabinet minister Lord Heseltine has said the campaign to remain in the EU has lost and it will be 20 years before the issue of rejoining the bloc is raised.

Here is the full article:- https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lord-heseltine-remain-brexit-general-election-a4313546.html


----------



## Guest

I think that the name calling towards leave voters is not justified either as they won both the democratic votes. Yet there is no apology from those that called the leave voters "stupid", "thick" etc. I think that it would be nice to see some apologies as this would be a good start to mending things between the 2 sides of this debate.


----------



## shadowmare

saartje said:


> I think that the name calling towards leave voters is not justified either as they won both the democratic votes. Yet there is no apology from those that called the leave voters "stupid", "thick" etc. I think that it would be nice to see some apologies as this would be a good start to mending things between the 2 sides of this debate.


Technically speaking, just because a group wins or proves to be a majority, does not prove them smart. As for conservatives winning = leave side wins is interesting. I've seen people say that SNPs landslide suggests appetite for independence, but the opposition argue that just because people vote SNP doesn't automatically mean theyre pro independence. Yet everyone who votes Tory is a leave voter?


----------



## kimthecat

shadowmare said:


> Technically speaking, just because a group wins or proves to be a majority, does not prove them smart.


 But it doesnt automatically make them stupid either. Millions of people have voted . No one group is going to be all stupid or all smart

@saartje The lasted insult to Tories , they are all vermin according to a welsh lecturer .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50802948

A Cardiff University lecturer has been criticised by a Welsh Tory for branding Conservative voters "vermin".

In a post-election tweet, Dr Andy Williams said: "British men & boomers [are] statistically more likely to be vermin than women & the young."


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> But it doesnt automatically make them stupid either. Millions of people have voted . No one group is going to be all stupid or all smart
> 
> @saartje The lasted insult to Tories , they are all vermin according to a welsh lecturer .
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50802948
> 
> A Cardiff University lecturer has been criticised by a Welsh Tory for branding Conservative voters "vermin".
> 
> In a post-election tweet, Dr Andy Williams said: "British men & boomers [are] statistically more likely to be vermin than women & the young."


Are they sure that's who it is? He looks like a completely different person.


----------



## Elles




----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Are they sure that's who it is? He looks like a completely different person.


I dont know. I know he's not Andy Williams the singer


----------



## Elles




----------



## Elles

Looks like it could be the same person. He looks a lot more ‘university’ in the first picture from the uni site. Maybe he’s been out demonstrating with xr and needs a rest. He calls a Tory politician a nob head too. Doesn’t seem bright enough for kindergarten, let alone uni.


----------



## kimthecat

You beat me to it. I just found his twitter acount
!

https://twitter.com/llantwit


----------



## Elles

Did you look at what he teaches lol.

I am the course leader of the BA modules:

“Spin Unspun: Public relations and the news media”.

Public relations and media. :Hilarious We always said academia is full of lefties. I saw them asking university students who they voted for and only one girl said that she voted conservative. She said that she would now be ostracised for admitting it. Most university cities are Labour, it’s pretty obvious why Corbyn wanted to lower the voting age.


----------



## gskinner123

Indeed...using .gov poll/election data, it was illustrated that if only 18-24 year olds voted in the next election, the Tories would not win a single seat.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> But it doesnt automatically make them stupid either. Millions of people have voted . No one group is going to be all stupid or all smart
> 
> @saartje The lasted insult to Tories , they are all vermin according to a welsh lecturer .
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50802948
> 
> A Cardiff University lecturer has been criticised by a Welsh Tory for branding Conservative voters "vermin".
> 
> In a post-election tweet, Dr Andy Williams said: "British men & boomers [are] statistically more likely to be vermin than women & the young."


Does anybody really care what the Losers say? Sour grapes imo 

I couldn't care less tbh - water off a duck's back.

Nobody had a crystal ball, not even the remoaners, who behave like they did 

We'll all now just have to wait and see.


----------



## Guest

I think the name calling and insults are not called for at all (I could say other things but I think they will be taken out of context). Remain supporters keep saying that the United Kingdom is split, well to reunify it starts when you apologise for insulting people with the name calling. Personally if anyone called me "thick" or "stupid" or the many other names leave voters have been called in the last 3 years or so I would feel insulted.

By the way I am not a leave voter I would have voted remain if I was allowed to but I am a national of another country now and I do not live in the United Kingdom.

Brexit is happening now and it is time to look ahead not backwards.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> Does anybody really care what the Losers say? Sour grapes imo
> 
> I couldn't care less tbh - water off a duck's back.
> 
> Nobody had a crystal ball (not even the remoaners, who behave like they did
> 
> We'll all now just have to wait and see.


No need to be nasty, you have won, I've lost, I still have the right to say what I think, at the moment it's still a free country to say what we like.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> No need to be nasty, you have won, I've lost, I still have the right to say what I think, at the moment it's still a free country to say what we like.


I wasn't trying to be nasty but commenting more on the constant nastiness directed towards anyone who voted Out/Tory, ironically 

Like I said, none of us know what's going to happen. I'm going to hope it's going to turn out ok. Can't do much more at this stage.

But yes, you're entitled to keep banging on about it, absolutely 

Works both ways 

Anyhoo - I'm out - literally.

I should have stood by my original post in this thread - way back ...

Quote
Lurcherlad says:
No 

#10Aug 21, 2018
Unquote


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> I wasn't trying being being nasty but commenting more on the constant nastiness directed towards anyone who voted Out/Tory, ironically
> 
> Like I said, none of us know what's going to happen. I'm going to hope it's going to turn out ok. Can't do much more at this stage.
> 
> *But yes, you're entitled to keep banging on about it,* absolutely
> 
> Works both ways
> 
> Anyhoo - I'm out - literally.


I only bang as you put it, mainly in reply to posts having a go at remainers.


----------



## Calvine

saartje said:


> I think that it would be nice to see some apologies


 Pigs might fly!


----------



## KittenKong

shadowmare said:


> Technically speaking, just because a group wins or proves to be a majority, does not prove them smart. As for conservatives winning = leave side wins is interesting. I've seen people say that SNPs landslide suggests appetite for independence, but the opposition argue that just because people vote SNP doesn't automatically mean theyre pro independence. Yet everyone who votes Tory is a leave voter?


And because Johnson won, it doesn't necessarily suggest he's popular. Thatcher won with a similarly large majority in 1987 despite her rapidly declining popularity and the Poll Tax in their manifesto. That was through pro Tory media bias, a smear campaign against Kinnock and Labour & SDP/Liberal Alliance competing for the anti Tory vote with the belief they would win outright.



Lurcherlad said:


> Does anybody really care what the Losers say? Sour grapes imo
> 
> I couldn't care less tbh - water off a duck's back.
> 
> Nobody had a crystal ball, not even the remoaners, who behave like they did
> 
> We'll all now just have to wait and see.


Not reading beyond the tabloids again I see.

I could insult you back, but I won't fall to your level.

You can gloat as much as you like. I accept a hard Brexit is now inevitable. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it nor get behind it. I didn't support the Poll Tax either, despite having to pay it.

I'm actually looking forward to how many Leavers, blinded through the propaganda and fairytale like promises, find out what they voted for.

It'll be us "Sore losers" who'll be the ones laughing.


----------



## kimthecat

Look , this isnt getting us anywhere , lets kiss and make up ! No tongues mind !

Seriously , its hard not to be apprehensive and even worried about the future .
Its understandable but arguing on here wont change anything, it just causes divides.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Look , this isnt getting us anywhere , lets kiss and make up ! No tongues mind !
> 
> Seriously , its hard not to be apprehensive and even worried about the future .
> Its understandable but arguing on here wont change anything, it just causes divides.


Well said.


----------



## MilleD

Today's news about Johnson's intention to limit any extension to trade agreements doesn't sound too good...


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> I'm actually looking forward to how many Leavers, blinded through the propaganda and fairytale like promises, find out what they voted for.
> 
> It'll be us "Sore losers" who'll be the ones laughing.


Yes, and I don't think it will be long before they find something to moan at.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes, and I don't think it will be long before they find something to moan at.


I'm sure both sides will find something to moan at . The Aussies dont call us whinging poms for nothing


----------



## KittenKong

Ah the Poll Tax. I did what Uncle Norman told me and got on my bike to where the jobs were.

At the time of its introduction I was doing temporary zero hour casual work in London, but used my parent's Newcastle address for a source of correspondence.

Overnight, I had a bill from Newcastle City Council, charging me £52 a month, despite actually being in London undertaking temporary work!

When that dried up I returned to the NE to sign on. I had to notify NCC too, where they issued me with a bill as an unemployed person for £13 a month.

I soon got temporary work again. Signed off, notified NCC who issued a set of new bills for £52 a month! This continued over a period until 1992 when I signed off for the last time. Still zero hour casual work, but regular. Paid up until the hated tax was abolished.

Now, image if I hadn't registered to vote in Newcastle. They'd had no idea of my existence nor able to pay the tax!

Typically badly thought out disaster by the Tories.

And people trust them with Brexit???
:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Look , this isnt getting us anywhere , lets kiss and make up ! No tongues mind !
> 
> Seriously , its hard not to be apprehensive and even worried about the future .
> Its understandable but arguing on here wont change anything, it just causes divides.


Speaking of that, I thought you might like to see the response from a tribal Lib Dems supporter who blamed Corbyn but not Swinson. :

Lib Dems supporter's reply:









This was my response to that:


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I'm sure both sides will find something to moan at


Bet your life on that: you can't please all the people all the time. Whatever the results of the referendum/GE, there would be some who were happy, some who weren't. Some people can cope with the results and some could not be more pissed off if their throat had been cut. Most people I know, including remainers, are just glad that there is now an end to the ridiculous stalemate of the last three and a half years (well, hopefully so - never sure what Gina Miller might be plotting).


----------



## Guest

I see on Friday the Prime Minister plans to bring his Withdrawal Agreement/Bill back to the House of Commons to be voted on with an amendment to not allow anymore extensions. Corbyn reacted saying that he has instructed the Labour Party (203 seats) to vote against the Withdrawal Agreement/Bill and no doubt the SNP (48 Seats) Liberal Democrats (11 seats), DUP (8 seats) and Others (15 seats) will as well bringing the total of opposition votes to around 285. But with the Conservative majority surely there will not be enough opposition votes against the amended Withdrawal Agreement/Bill plus you will have some Labour MP's defy Corbyn (Bringing the total opposition votes down from 285). Surely the amended withdrawal agreement/bill will pass and the problem is in the House of Lords trying to put amendments on it?


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> Bet your life on that: you can't please all the people all the time. Whatever the results of the referendum/GE, there would be some who were happy, some who weren't. Some people can cope with the results and some could not be more pissed off if their throat had been cut. Most people I know, including remainers, are just glad that there is now an end to the ridiculous stalemate of the last three and a half years (well, hopefully so - never sure what Gina Miller might be plotting).


Won't the trade deal and future relationship be negotiated out of the media spotlight to stop interference from members of the public trying to take the Government to court?

Surely the Conservative party winning a majority means the playing field has changed and Gina Miller's interference less likely now as the Government can technically pass laws more quickly and get the Brexit process finished?


----------



## Guest

I see the PM is getting rid of the Fixed Term Parliament act which David Cameron introduced. This will give the PM the power as to when to call an early General Election instead of having to ask Parliament which means he can serve his full 5 year term if he wishes. Also I noticed he is planning to limit the Future Relationship and Trade deal part of the next part of the negotiations so everything ends by 31st December 2020. I read he is going to ask the European Union for a Canada style free trade deal which the previous President of the European Union, Donald Tusk said the European Union would offer previously (https://www.cityam.com/donald-tusk-offers-uk-canada-style-trade-deal-blow-theresa/amp/). Will be interesting how things pan out over the next year and the next 5 years.


----------



## Magyarmum

The latest UK Government update for British ex-pats living in the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-...DP3KLyMGPT450liMeF9MG6FH4KrU2nZ8uv3WtfXdJS3jU

*Living in the EU: prepare for Brexit*
Information for UK nationals living in the EU, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland or Ireland about preparing for Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal has cleared its first Commons hurdle with a thumping majority of 124, putting the UK on course to leave the EU on 31 January.
The withdrawal agreement bill – stripped of powers for MPs to avert the risk of a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020 and scrutinise the future EU trade deal – was given its second reading.
It will now be given detailed scrutiny at its committee stage early in the New Year, but is not expected to be amended significantly before passing into law next month.
More follows…


----------



## Guest

I am sorry but I being careful how I comment and the comments I like from now on as not to offend anyone. I think it is best I stay out of this thread from now on and the General Election one to please those that I have offended from my politeness whilst they are allowed to go around being rude and offending people with their comments. Sorry but I think it's best I leave.


----------



## MollySmith

Posted elsewhere here but a useful reminder.


----------



## MollySmith

And this on how a law is made to avoid any confusion


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> And because Johnson won, it doesn't necessarily suggest he's popular. Thatcher won with a similarly large majority in 1987 despite her rapidly declining popularity and the Poll Tax in their manifesto. That was through pro Tory media bias, a smear campaign against Kinnock and Labour & SDP/Liberal Alliance competing for the anti Tory vote with the belief they would win outright.
> 
> Not reading beyond the tabloids again I see.
> 
> I could insult you back, but I won't fall to your level.
> 
> You can gloat as much as you like. I accept a hard Brexit is now inevitable. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it nor get behind it. I didn't support the Poll Tax either, despite having to pay it.
> 
> I'm actually looking forward to how many Leavers, blinded through the propaganda and fairytale like promises, find out what they voted for.
> 
> It'll be us "Sore losers" who'll be the ones laughing.


We will not. We will be in it.

Don't worry, if it will not pan out as BoJo promised there is EU and immigrants to blame for it...

Brexit is basically the poor persuaded by the rich to give up their free health care, pensions etc... bit by bit.

Plus Corbyn and Swinson were instrumental in that disaster.
Corbyn- sabotaged Remain, denied PV and Swinson totally deluded wanted to be a PM.

Life goes on.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Boris Johnson's Brexit deal has cleared its first Commons hurdle with a thumping majority of 124, putting the UK on course to leave the EU on 31 January.
> The withdrawal agreement bill - stripped of powers for MPs to avert the risk of a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020 and scrutinise the future EU trade deal - was given its second reading.
> It will now be given detailed scrutiny at its committee stage early in the New Year, but is not expected to be amended significantly before passing into law next month.
> More follows…


This was to be expected of course. I thought the cheek Corbyn had to speak as Labour leader, seeing he was jointly responsible for allowing Johnson his victory. He was like a dead man walking politically. Time to make way for someone like Kier Starmer.

Guess we can all hope that both Labour and the Lib Dems appoint sensible leaders this time and work together, rather than be a competitive opposition.

And we'll soon see how people react to finding out what they voted for......


----------



## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Monday 16 December 2019 by Davywavy*

*Jeremy Corbyn to be knighted for services to the Conservative Party*









*The massive contribution made by Jeremy Corbyn to last Thursday's Conservative victory is to be recognised in the New Year honours, we can reveal.*

Paying tribute to the leader of the opposition, a Tory Party spokesman said "Nobody worked harder, or for longer, to ensure the Conservative party won than Jeremy Corbyn.

"Whenever he appeared on a doorstep, or his picture on a flyer, voters would take one look and say 'Conservative', and we're immensely grateful for that and feel it should be recognised."

Some commentators are already speculating Corbyn may be elevated to a seat in the Lords, like so many die-hard socialists before him.

"The Tories cram the Lords with people they know won't oppose their policies," said nobility expert Simon Prince-Williams.

"So it would certainly make sense to create him first Baron Islington.

"That way whenever people think of voting Labour again they can wheel him out to make a speech about nationalising cheese or something and shore up our vote."

Jeremy Corbyn was unavailable for comment this morning after John McDonnell was seen going into his office with an ice pick.


----------



## rona

*AT* *LAST :Happy*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 426293
> 
> 
> Remember this?
> It turned out we didn't have to endure another five years of her.


Only because the poor woman was showing the first signs of her dementia. Remember what a load of ineffictives we got after her until Tony Blair who sold half our NHS surreptitiously

Anyway, I was happy about Brexit happening, not about some Eton schoolboy becoming PM


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, I bet many didn't think of this. Losing FoM rights unless you have 2m€ to spare.

There's always Butlins for them:Hilarious

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-cyprus-passport-boris-johnson-a9255266.html


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 426294





rona said:


> Only because the poor woman was showing the first signs of her dementia. Remember what a load of ineffictives we got after her until Tony Blair who sold half our NHS surreptitiously
> 
> Anyway, I was happy about Brexit happening, not about some Eton schoolboy becoming PM


I'd just like to make clear that KK changed post while I was answering


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I'd just like to make clear that KK changed post while I was answering


Yes, Thatcher's 1987 victory was hardly relevant, the point made was she didn't end up governing for five years following the Poll Tax disaster.

Decided it wasn't really relevant so I changed it.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, I bet many didn't think of this. Losing FoM rights unless you have 2m€ to spare.
> 
> There's always Butlins for them:Hilarious
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-cyprus-passport-boris-johnson-a9255266.html
> View attachment 426304


Have you only just discovered "Golden Visas and Passports?

They've been around for years! Hungary stopped issuing them about 18 months ago.

https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-you-can-buy-citizenship-residency-or-passport-2018-9

*23 countries where money can buy you a second passport or 'elite residency'*

https://www.euractiv.com/section/ju...rges-crackdown-on-golden-visas-and-passports/

*EU urges crackdown on 'golden visas and passports'*

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/627128/EPRS_STU(2018)627128_EN.pdf


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Anyway, I was happy about Brexit happening, not about some Eton schoolboy becoming PM


It's our futures being in the hands of these "Born to rule" idiots that scares me more than Brexit.

It didn't have to mean the UK becoming the only area in Western Europe that prohibits its citizens of their FoM rights, as we well know in none member states like Norway.


rona said:


> Only because the poor woman was showing the first signs of her dementia. Remember what a load of ineffictives we got after her until Tony Blair who sold half our NHS surreptitiously


PFI was introduced by John Major's Conservatives, continued by Blair's administration.


----------



## KittenKong

From 2016....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lets forget Brexit for now and enjoy Christmas and worry about it in the New Year


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

Frans Timmermans love letter. 

Utterly bonkers.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 427282


Any source for those screenshots?


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/n...X_sH9xmWboorOmptw4S_Eh16Qk2gdJop0tKzMoMgZNH-w

Perhaps someone needs to tell him they drive on the right in the US too, and that Australia and New Zealand adopted the metric system.

There's going to be a lot of disappointed people...


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 427663


Impossible, don't they all know we are British?:Cigar


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> https://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/n...X_sH9xmWboorOmptw4S_Eh16Qk2gdJop0tKzMoMgZNH-w
> 
> Perhaps someone needs to tell him they drive on the right in the US too, and that Australia and New Zealand adopted the metric system.
> 
> There's going to be a lot of disappointed people...
> 
> View attachment 427633


Conversely, they use the Imperial system in the US and both Australia and New Zealand drive on the left.

What was the point you were trying to make???????????


----------



## Bisbow

Magyarmum said:


> Conversely, they use the Imperial system in the US and both Australia and New Zealand drive on the left.
> 
> What was the point you were trying to make???????????


Trying to prove that all leavers are stupid fools


----------



## KittenKong

Many of you in Bradville and Bancroft use the 5/6 bus route, and have been experiencing really poor service - the target is supposed to be 95% reliability, but Arriva in Milton Keynes have been averaging less than 70% over the whole city, and I suspect the 5/6 is even worse.
Arriva's explanation? Brexit. Apparently a whole cadre of Polish drivers resigned in the summer because they feared for their future, and Arriva have yet to replace them.
This has emerged in evidence to next month's review by MK councillors of the bus service in the city. I'm on the scrutiny committee that's doing the review - let me have your experiences about service in comments on this posting
--------------------------

- Well, seeing they are scrapping all EU legislation relating to employee rights that was dismissed as "Scaremongering", they could force their drivers to work a 60+ hour week to cover for the staff they have lost couldn't they.

I understand The Sun called it an, "Overtime bonanza"....


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 427663


Is that all? Im sure we had more victories than that. 

Honestly , this has made my mind up . My NYR is dont waste time reading this thread.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Trying to prove that all leavers are stupid fools


I've yet to hear the calls to make eggs white again. That'll be next.


----------



## Elles

Anti Brexit remain lawyer killed a fox with a baseball bat and tweeted about it.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 427720
> 
> Many of you in Bradville and Bancroft use the 5/6 bus route, and have been experiencing really poor service - the target is supposed to be 95% reliability, but Arriva in Milton Keynes have been averaging less than 70% over the whole city, and I suspect the 5/6 is even worse.
> Arriva's explanation? Brexit. Apparently a whole cadre of Polish drivers resigned in the summer because they feared for their future, and Arriva have yet to replace them.
> This has emerged in evidence to next month's review by MK councillors of the bus service in the city. I'm on the scrutiny committee that's doing the review - let me have your experiences about service in comments on this posting
> --------------------------
> 
> - Well, seeing they are scrapping all EU legislation relating to employee rights that was dismissed as "Scaremongering", they could force their drivers to work a 60+ hour week to cover for the staff they have lost couldn't they.
> 
> I understand The Sun called it an, "Overtime bonanza"....


Its a good excuse for Arriva to make for poor service!


----------



## KittenKong

Hmmm.....


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Anti Brexit remain lawyer killed a fox with a baseball bat and tweeted about it.


I can't barely bring myself to read the story but have. But I don't feel Brexit and his actions are related - it has very little relevance to this thread. Boris will want to bring back legal fox hunting I'm sure - they have tried. I'm completely anti fox hunting and find his actions left me speechless.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I hope the RSPCA manage to bring charges against him, evil man.



Elles said:


> Anti Brexit remain lawyer killed a fox with a baseball bat and tweeted about it.


As the article doesn't mention he was Anti Brexit why did you feel you had to?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50919327


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> As the article doesn't mention he was Anti Brexit why did you feel you had to?


It was the headlines in many tabloids I believe and twitter is awash with those very same words


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I hope the RSPCA manage to bring charges against him,


Don't hold your breath. He's rich and will make a large donation to their coffers and that will be the end of that - that's my guess, anyway.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> But I don't feel Brexit and his actions are related


No, me neither: and I thought the comment from @Elles was tongue in cheek - maybe I was wrong.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> It was the headlines in many tabloids I believe and twitter is awash with those very same words


Maybe, but it can just inflame everything again and to be honest I'm sick to death as been portrayed as one of the bad guys just because I voted remain.


----------



## Magyarmum

Molly Smith said

"But I don’t feel Brexit and his actions are related - it has very little relevance to this thread"

Neither are Idi Amin or Robert Mugabe but they've both frequently been brought into this thread along with others I won't bother to mention!.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe, but it can just inflame everything again and to be honest I'm sick to death as been portrayed as one of the bad guys just because I voted remain.


Your kidding right?


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Neither are Idi Amin of Robert Mugabe


 You forgot Hitler. And Mussolini.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe, but it can just inflame everything again and to be honest I'm sick to death as been portrayed as one of the bad guys just because I voted remain.


I can't quite work out if you are being sarcastic in that last bit?


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> I can't quite work out if you are being sarcastic in that last bit?


No, I think remainers on whole are been treated as if they are idiots, just because we think it would be better to leave things as they are.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> No, I think remainers on whole are been treated as if they are idiots, just because we think it would be better to leave things as they are.


 Surely not? Leavers were - and still are - the ones portrayed as racist, thick, uneducated, geriatric and working class. Even the Swinson woman said they were ''narrow and closed''. And John Berkow (and others who should have known better) even had car stickers with ''Bollocks to Brexit''. Berkow tried to wriggle out of it by saying it was his wife's car I recall. I didn't read of anyone with a car sticker declaring ''Bollocks to Remain''. Maybe I missed that one.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Surely not? Leavers were - and still are - the ones portrayed as racist, thick, uneducated, geriatric and working class. Even the Swinson woman said they were ''narrow and closed''. And John Berkow (and others who should have known better) even had car stickers with ''Bollocks to Brexit''. Berkow tried to wriggle out of it by saying it was his wife's car I recall. I didn't read of anyone with a car sticker declaring ''Bollocks to Remain''. Maybe I missed that one.


https://areomagazine.com/2019/11/03/calm-the-f-down-about-brexit/

*Calm the F*** Down About Brexit*


----------



## Dave S

Load of big words there but the bottom line says
*"We will need to stiffen our upper lips, put the kettle on, and deal with it."*​Best advise there.

Stuff the snow flakes, bring on the Custard Creams.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> https://areomagazine.com/2019/11/03/calm-the-f-down-about-brexit/
> 
> *Calm the F*** Down About Brexit*


 You are right: maybe we should ask to have the thread closed. Just a thought.


----------



## Elles

I didn’t get half way through the article before I knew it was written by a Remainer who thinks it’s going to be a catastrophe. :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

The United Kingdom's decision to leave the European Union which is now happening after a long 3 years has made the worst come out in some people in the United Kingdom on both sides of the debate.

I think both sides of the debate need to now just move forward as the United Kingdom is leaving on the 31st January 2020 and leaving with or without a trade deal on the 31st December 2020. There is a strong government in the United Kingdom in power now whilst some opposition parties are electing new leaders (Labour and Lib Dems).

Again I wish the United Kingdom all the best with its future outside of the European Union.


----------



## Bisbow

Calvine said:


> You are right: maybe we should ask to have the thread closed. Just a thought.


I agree but I bet someone would start it up again under a new label


----------



## Elles

If people still want to talk about it, why close it? Will people with specific problems that occur from Brexit post here, or in their own threads do you think?


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> I agree but I bet someone would start it up again under a new label


Yes, it's happening. We need threads like this to hold the government to account. Did anyone honestly expect Erasmus to end? Perhaps you think National Service should be re-instated so our children have to fight in US led wars rather than study abroad if they so wish...

Close this thread to shut us up? You've got to be kidding!
What are you frightened of? Realising the truth of what you voted for???


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> I agree but I bet someone would start it up again under a new label


 Bet your life on that . . . I won't name names, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Bet your life on that . . . I won't name names, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


Well, it is an important thing to talk about. There _are _going to be problems (especially in the event of no deal), including a lot of ones that most people won't even have considered. I should know, I work in an industry where we have to consider some of those kind of problems (can't say exactly what, sorry), and for some of those in extreme-worst case scenarios fatalities are a possibility. Exceedingly low probability, I hasten to reassure, but better planned for than gambling they won't happen.

Personally I'm not expecting a catastrophe, but I do think many who desire to leave will be disappointed with the actual reality.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> Bet your life on that . . . I won't name names, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


I haven't a clue who that could be!


----------



## Guest

Greenland pulled out of the European Community in 1985 and are doing ok I do not see why the United Kingdom won't do well leaving the now European Union?

I do not know how this thread will hold the United Kingdom Government to account in any way. I doubt they know it exists. 

People voted to leave so that is what is happening. If a trade and future realtionship deal is made in the next 11 months is the next question.


----------



## rona

Bisbow said:


> I agree but I bet someone would start it up again under a new label





Calvine said:


> Bet your life on that . . . I won't name names, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.





Magyarmum said:


> I haven't a clue who that could be!


Come on guys......I don't know how you felt when Brexit seemed to be blocked and we would never get there. I felt angry, upset, deflated and concerned about the future. 
The boot is on the other foot now, surely you can sympathies with the real worries of those that thought to stay in was the only way forward. 
Why make things worse for them?


----------



## Guest

If the European Withdrawal Bill is passed (which it more than likely will be) in the United Kingdom and Ratified by the European Council then there will be no more delays because hasn't Johnson put an amendment in it not to allow further delays? So it will be law in Europe as well that the United Kingdom.


----------



## Guest

European Union Bill has passed 3rd reading 330 to 231 majority 99.


----------



## stuaz

saartje said:


> Greenland pulled out of the European Community in 1985 and are doing ok I do not see why the United Kingdom won't do well leaving the now European Union?
> .


To be fair, Greenland is a very different country to the UK, a much much smaller population and are heavily subsidised by Denmark. Not to mention of course that with the Danish connection they do maintain a level of access and connection to the EU markets.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Close this thread to shut us up? You've got to be kidding!
> What are you frightened of? Realising the truth of what you voted for???


I am frightened of nothing
Just looking forward too not being controlled by a lot of faceless wonders treating us all as their servants


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> Just looking forward too not being controlled by a lot of faceless wonders treating us all as their servants


Don't worry, I'm sure they will be swiftly replaced by the British equivalent


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> Yes, it's happening. We need threads like this to hold the government to account. Did anyone honestly expect Erasmus to end? Perhaps you think National Service should be re-instated so our children have to fight in US led wars rather than study abroad if they so wish...
> 
> Close this thread to shut us up? You've got to be kidding!
> What are you frightened of? Realising the truth of what you voted for???


I knew Erasmus would be lost. I did hope that I would at least be given the chance to appeal the settled status decision but I guess I was too optimistic...


----------



## cheekyscrip

shadowmare said:


> I knew Erasmus would be lost. I did hope that I would at least be given the chance to appeal the settled status decision but I guess I was too optimistic...


I do regret it as my son really wanted to participate.


----------



## rona

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-the-government-pulled-the-uk-out-of-erasmus

"The rejected clause would have compelled the government "to seek to negotiate continuing full membership of the EU's Erasmus+ education and youth programme".

Had it passed, the government would have been required by law to make staying part of the Erasmus scheme a priority in Brexit negotiations.

The clause was just one of a string of opposition amendments which the government defeated. It's been suggested that it did so to avoid tying its own hands in negotiations.

Crucially, what many commentators seem to have missed is that voting the clause down, as Conservative MPs did last night, is not the same as scrapping UK involvement in the scheme.

Universities minister, Chris Skidmore, tweeted this morning that the vote "does not end or prevent the UK participating in [Erasmus]", adding: "We remain open to participation and this will be part of future negotiations with the EU - we highly value international student exchanges".


----------



## cheekyscrip

Considering Trump’s trigger happy fingers there is nothing to celebrate about leaving EU to get closer to USA ... our special Big Brother.

Another attempt to shut up people who don’t agree with Brexit...
What a surprise....

Don’t worry most of our old members who were against Brexit are not active anymore.

Or banned and not allowed to come back under new username.

I just hope we will not be dragged into another war while EU will stay out of it just sending “help with logistics” when we send an army...


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.lcdviews.com/2020/01/09...-chimney-sweeping-on-jacob-rees-moggs-estate/


----------



## Guest

*UK 'committed' to maintaining Erasmus+ exchange scheme*

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/09/uk-committed-to-maintaining-erasmus-exchange-scheme

Thu 9 Jan 2020 16.02 GMT

DfE says government wants to ensure students can continue to benefit from European exchange scheme

The government has said it is committed to maintaining the UK's membership of the Erssmus+ programme, which funds opportunities for young people to train and study across Europe, despite shooting down an attempt to make its membership a priority in EU withdrawal negotiations.


----------



## KittenKong

Double irony here seeing it's a Brexit supporting region and the main Union is Unite that encouraged their members to vote leave.

Why wasn't McCluskey offered a Peerage?

From North East for Europe:

Sad news for Newton Aycliife. The management don't mention Brexit as a reason (understandable in a Leave-voting area) but like any large complex manufacturing business with an international supply chain, Hitachi Rail benefits from frictionless trade with its continental suppliers and customers; which will definitely end on 31st December 2020.
It is ironic that the constituency has just voted out a passionate supporter for a People's Vote and voted in a Conservative MP, committed to making it more difficult for business like this to buy and sell in the rest of Europe. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-51052292]


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> ..I don't know how you felt when Brexit seemed to be blocked and we would never get there. I felt angry, upset, deflated and concerned about the future.


 I also know several remainers who were outraged at the way it was being blocked by devious means in a (supposedly) democratic country. They were more relieved than I was at the result of the GE (I did not vote).


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> I also know several remainers who were outraged at the way it was being blocked by devious means in a (supposedly) democratic country. They were more relieved than I was at the result of the GE (I did not vote).


Why be outraged about it? The support isn't there to stay in the European Union. MP's in the previous Parliament done everything to frustrate and delay everything and not respect the vote from the referendum of 2016. I bet there is a sigh of relief that things are now moving forward.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> Why be outraged about it? The support isn't there to stay in the European Union. MP's in the previous Parliament done everything to frustrate and delay everything and not respect the vote from the referendum of 2016. I bet there is a sigh of relief that things are now moving forward.


I think you may have taken Calvine's post out of context...............or have I misread yours?


----------



## Guest

If I have taken your post out of contact calvine I apologise.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Considering Trump's trigger happy fingers there is nothing to celebrate about leaving EU to get closer to USA ... our special Big Brother.
> 
> Another attempt to shut up people who don't agree with Brexit...
> What a surprise....
> 
> Don't worry most of our old members who were against Brexit are not active anymore.
> 
> Or banned and not allowed to come back under new username.
> 
> I just hope we will not be dragged into another war while EU will stay out of it just sending "help with logistics" when we send an army..
> 
> .
> 
> I think you'll find the reason people were banned was not because of their opinion, but because of the derogatory way in which they expressed those opinions.
> 
> Likening the UK to Hitler's Germany or Mugabe's Zimbabwe amongst other things, is totally unnecessary as is calling government ministers "fascists" or "nazis". Remarks like these add nothing to the discussion and only create unpleasantness and detract from the real purpose of the thread.
> 
> Maybe you aren't aware but there were also 200 Hungarian troops plus troops from Poland as well as the US in Erbil. Apparently though Trump didn't see fit to mention that their lives were just as much at risk as his own fellow countryman's.
> 
> http://www.visegradgroup.eu/news/szijjarto-no-hungarian
> 
> *Szijjarto: No Hungarian casualties in Iraq*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ranian-missile-attacks-minister-idUSKBN1Z70UD
> 
> *No Polish troops in Iraq hurt in Iranian missile attacks: minister*


----------



## KittenKong

I expected many of our civil liberties will soon be eroded, but this is beyond belief.

Who next? Remainers/Rejoiners and those campaigning for Scottish independence?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...emist-ideology-police-prevent-scheme-guidance


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I expected many of our civil liberties will soon be eroded, but this is beyond belief.
> 
> Who next? Remainers/Rejoiners and those campaigning for Scottish independence?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...emist-ideology-police-prevent-scheme-guidance
> 
> View attachment 428677


I am not surprised, there are not many Leave supporters there.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> I am not surprised, there are not many Leave supporters there.


How do you know that?

I think we have more of a chance to change policy than be dictated to by big money in the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> How do you know that?
> 
> I think we have more of a chance to change policy than be dictated to by big money in the EU.


Really? With the likes of Big Money like JRM?

Kidding?

Europe has better chance to do something United than falling apart.
Cooperation not competition.

Britain is trying to snuggle up to Trump. Who does not care much for climate change, environment and do such, busy with blowing things up.

Why most Green activists think Brexit is a doom for British wildlife?

I see the fat cats now in power and I don't trust them even if they are made in Britain.

Germany and Skandi countries are much more advanced in recycling and many other initiatives.

Much less food waste, rubbish, much more energy efficient technology.
If you ever go to those EU countries you can compare.

Plus healthy diet and exercise , sport facilities in schools and outside, healthy lifestyle - compare!

British children eat much more rubbish, spent much less time outdoors and active, obesity and under age drinking are so much higher.

It is alarming. It is really sad.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Really? With the likes of Big Money like JRM?
> 
> Kidding?
> 
> Europe has better chance to do something United than falling apart.
> Cooperation not competition.
> 
> Britain is trying to snuggle up to Trump. Who does not care much for climate change, environment and do such, busy with blowing things up.
> 
> Why most Green activists think Brexit is a doom for British wildlife?
> 
> I see the fat cats now in power and I don't trust them even if they are made in Britain.
> 
> Germany and Skandi countries are much more advanced in recycling and many other initiatives.
> 
> Much less food waste, rubbish, much more energy efficient technology.
> If you ever go to those EU countries you can compare.
> 
> Plus healthy diet and exercise , sport facilities in schools and outside, healthy lifestyle - compare!
> 
> British children eat much more rubbish, spent much less time outdoors and active, obesity and under age drinking are so much higher.
> 
> It is alarming. It is really sad.


You are talking short term party politics, I'm talking long term back to British decency. 
The only reason that the conservatives and the right wing lean in politics world wide is due to the extreme left wing nanny state rise. In fact, the loony left.
I'm sorry but the majority don't want to be told what they can think, that's not democracy, that's dictatorship


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> You are talking short term party politics, I'm talking long term back to British decency.
> The only reason that the conservatives and the right wing lean in politics world wide is due to the extreme left wing nanny state rise. In fact, the loony left.
> I'm sorry but the majority don't want to be told what they can think, that's not democracy, that's dictatorship


The thought police exist

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated-police-retweeting-transgender-limerick/

"After Mr Miller questioned why the complainant was being described as a "victim" if no crime had been committed, the officer told him: "We need to check your thinking"."


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> The thought police exist
> 
> "


Not the best example but yes, on many many subjects too


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You are talking short term party politics, I'm talking long term back to British decency.
> The only reason that the conservatives and the right wing lean in politics world wide is due to the extreme left wing nanny state rise. In fact, the loony left.
> I'm sorry but the majority don't want to be told what they can think, that's not democracy, that's dictatorship


Not all "Nanny state" measures are left wing. Remember the "Video Nasties" policy introduced by Thatcher, the introduction of Clause 28 to outlaw what they said was the "promotion" of Homosexuality. The Cameron government introduced plain tobacco packaging. The Thatcher government banned Corporal punishment.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Not all "Nanny state" measures are left wing. Remember the "Video Nasties" policy introduced by Thatcher, the introduction of Clause 28 to outlaw what they said was the "promotion" of Homosexuality. The Cameron government introduced plain tobacco packaging. The Thatcher government banned Corporal punishment.


Was it Maggie who banned CP? I didn't realise. Good on her. 

The left isn't really about human rights and preventing harm to others, it's stopping you doing something that the state considers harms you. Or preventing you from doing something/forcing you to do something that doesn't harm yourself or others, but the left don't like it. Such as freedom of speech issues. You can say what you like so long as the left agree with it. Anything else could get you cancelled, jobless, arrested, fined, or even imprisoned. They're keen on decriminalising prostitution and cannabis, but want to ban smoking cigarettes outdoors.

It also includes bringing in laws that no one wants, other than a small minority of lefties and academics, supposedly to protect a group that neither want or need protecting. They want to prevent parents from advising and protecting their own children, when what the state wants to do to them is harmful. Preventing meetings and discussions on subjects they don't accept being discussed. Preventing Brexit when the majority have voted for it. They're tyrannical. They're already working on getting us back in the Eu ASAP and that's before we've even left. The extreme left want the state to control everything we do and say and force their views on us.

The founders and full on members of XR are extremists and a bit worrying. Nutcases basically. We don't know who is infiltrating them either.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ellion-co-founder-roger-hallam-a-1297789.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> You are talking short term party politics, I'm talking long term back to British decency.
> The only reason that the conservatives and the right wing lean in politics world wide is due to the extreme left wing nanny state rise. In fact, the loony left.
> I'm sorry but the majority don't want to be told what they can think, that's not democracy, that's dictatorship


There is some truth in it.
Neither extreme right or extreme left are any good. Both end in dictatorship.
Both bad for us equally.


----------



## cheekyscrip

And Megsit eclipsed Brexit...

Lucky them...


----------



## KittenKong

Isn't this the whole purpose of Brexit? Unbelievable!

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...ozRmiit4OAmU_rTGeWeDauHjN7_KJLgs_PLrUpy2tlqIY


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> Isn't this the whole purpose of Brexit? Unbelievable!
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...ozRmiit4OAmU_rTGeWeDauHjN7_KJLgs_PLrUpy2tlqIY
> View attachment 429480


She's talking about while the Eu still have some control over the U.K. during the transition period. The answer is that Boris, the British government and the negotiators will have to hold the Eu to account. She's not talking about after Brexit when the Eu will have no say over the U.K. Either Remainers are deliberately taking what she said out of context to further their cause, or they're the not very bright ones.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> She's talking about while the Eu still have some control over the U.K. during the transition period. The answer is that Boris, the British government and the negotiators will have to hold the Eu to account. She's not talking about after Brexit when the Eu will have no say over the U.K. Either Remainers are deliberately taking what she said out of context to further their cause, or they're the not very bright ones.


You have to admit, though, it's a bit late to start asking the question now! Not to mention cheeky to be expecting to have any influence over the club we said we wanted to leave after we have left.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> You have to admit, though, it's a bit late to start asking the question now! Not to mention cheeky to be expecting to have any influence over the club we said we wanted to leave after we have left.


Don't forget the Brexit Party wanted to leave without a deal, or transition and were formed quite late in the day.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Don't forget the Brexit Party wanted to leave without a deal, or transition and were formed quite late in the day.


Which just doubles the irony, really, given they were all about not having a say as soon as possible


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Which just doubles the irony, really, given they were all about not having a say as soon as possible


It's the opposite. They want us fully out, so there's no need to have a say. We only need a say if we haven't fully left, which for a year we won't have.

What they are saying is that we should actually leave on the 31st January, or if we don't, we need to have a say about things that affect the U.K. while we transition. There's nothing ironic about it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Boris's signature on the EU Withdrawal Agreement


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Boris's signature on the EU Withdrawal Agreement


His signature suits him down to the ground: big and untidy!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Boris's signature on the EU Withdrawal Agreement


So what...........


----------



## cheekyscrip

Looks like we are heading towards hard Brexit after the 2020...


----------



## Dave S

NOT impressed with Farage and the other MEP's yesterday at their final session in Euro Parliament.
They behaved like spoilt kids and really embarrassed themselves. 

Certainly do not represent me or many others in the UK who would prefer a more professional approach.


----------



## Elles

Dave S said:


> NOT impressed with Farage and the other MEP's yesterday at their final session in Euro Parliament.
> They behaved like spoilt kids and really embarrassed themselves.
> 
> Certainly do not represent me or many others in the UK who would prefer a more professional approach.


lol, do you watch pm's question time? The huge majority of MPs behave like spoiled brats, why would MEPs be any different? :Mooning


----------



## Dave S

PMQ's is theatre for the public as the questions and answers are known beforehand. Yes MP's do behave badly but yesterday was different - yesterday was purely insulting.


----------



## Elles

Dave S said:


> PMQ's is theatre for the public as the questions and answers are known beforehand. Yes MP's do behave badly but yesterday was different - yesterday was purely insulting.


tbh I'm talking about something I know nothing about, because I didn't see it. So I have no idea what the MEPs did that was insulting, or behaving like kids.


----------



## Gallifreyangirl

The whole BREXIT thing is driving me insane at the moment. Didn't want to come out but now we are and it seems to have dragged on forever.


----------



## Dave S

Elles said:


> tbh I'm talking about something I know nothing about, because I didn't see it. So I have no idea what the MEPs did that was insulting, or behaving like kids.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-by-mairead-mcguinness-in-european-parliament


----------



## Elles

Dave S said:


> PMQ's is theatre for the public as the questions and answers are known beforehand. Yes MP's do behave badly but yesterday was different - yesterday was purely insulting.


ok seen it now. Farage said he loves Europe and hopes that one day we will trade as sovereign countries, not through the Eu. Expressed support of the common market, but hates the Eu and waved the union flag. Mairead was insulted and seemed a little confused, thinking that the Eu is a nation and a people, which of course it isn't. He and his compadres broke the rules by waving the flag, I've seen worse.

Farage and the Brexit Party don't like the Eu, tell us something we don't know. A storm in a teacup deliberately created by Farage, someone who once we leave the Eu, will no longer be of any significance and fade into obscurity I expect.


----------



## kimthecat

I found Farage embarrassing and I thought it nice that the other Meps and Auld Lang Syne.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Farage and the Brexit Party don't like the Eu, tell us something we don't know. A storm in a teacup deliberately created by Farage, someone who once we leave the Eu, will be raking it in for personal profit, I expect.


Fixed that for you


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> I found Farage embarrassing and I thought it nice that the other Meps and Auld Lang Syne.


considering Scotland doesn't want to leave, I thought it was a bit rude tbh.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pity we cannot leave with good grace.
That is very un English me think...bad manners....


----------



## Happy Paws2

16,141,241 people will not be celebrating today, what ever BJ says.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> 16,141,241 people will not be celebrating today, what ever BJ says.


Every one else will be though, me included


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> 16,141,241 people will not be celebrating today, what ever BJ says.


A lot more than that seeing only 13+ million people voted for pro Brexit parties at the last Election!

And those who couldn't vote having not reached 18 in 2016 of course.

The real Brexit day is 31/12/2020. Johnson even lied about that.


----------



## Pawscrossed

I voted leave and regret it very very much. I am in the strange camp of watching this with intently mixed views. I hope that it does work out better than I fear for all our sakes but with the policy on child refugees I am very unsure. I am not celebrating not just because I have mixed views, but if I had felt leave was still right - it would be extraordinarily inappropriate and disrespectful. It goes against any notion of bringing the country together. This is another one of Boris's 'thoughts' that has yet to be joined into any actions.


----------



## MollySmith

I was sincerely hoping that this thread had disappeared or was closed!

Be nice. Be mindful that many of us didn't want to leave. Be respectful that many did. And let's not go back over old arguments. I agree with @Pawscrossed that we have to hope for the best.

I'm proud to be European,and I always will be but for the sake of our country and our friends in Europe, I will do all I can to be pragmatic and not reactive. Honest! Deep breathes! I'd appreciate the same in return and no Farage style gloating. As a business owner and hopeful PhD student whose degree has ended due to no more EU finding, I have reasons to be worried. People who protest usually do. Let's be respectful of that. I did all I could and it wasn't enough. It makes me sad.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’m just glad the deal is finally sealed, but frustrated we’re 3 years behind where we should be by now.

I’m remaining positive and hopeful.


----------



## KittenKong

MollySmith said:


> I was sincerely hoping that this thread had disappeared or was closed!
> 
> Be nice. Be mindful that many of us didn't want to leave. Be respectful that many did. And let's not go back over old arguments. I agree with @Pawscrossed that we have to hope for the best.
> 
> I'm proud to be European,and I always will be but for the sake of our country and our friends in Europe, I will do all I can to be pragmatic and not reactive. Honest! Deep breathes! I'd appreciate the same in return and no Farage style gloating. As a business owner and hopeful PhD student whose degree has ended due to no more EU finding, I have reasons to be worried. People who protest usually do. Let's be respectful of that. I did all I could and it wasn't enough. It makes me sad.


I understand one of the papers (Express?) is calling for the EU flag to be declared illegal in the UK.

Is this the Britain people actually want, regardless of how you voted?

And when did the EU become the enemy?

No doubt some will support the silencing of opponents to this government, whether related to Brexit or not.

Oh yes, now the UK is leaving you can enjoy a cuppa without fear the EU intend to ban it!

Hate tea, always have done


----------



## Elles

We are still part of Europe and no Brexiter, Farage, or Boris can change that. We didn’t need the Eu for our brave men and women to fight for freedom in Europe. 

I would expect the Eu to bar us from using their symbol on our car number plates etc. now we are no longer a member of their political bloc. Ordinary people will carry on being ordinary people, we need the powers that be to get on with running the country and sorting out welfare, particularly as it applies to the vulnerable and disabled and stop worrying about what billionaires think and Brexit. 

We need to start campaigning for funding directly from our own government bodies where we feel it important imo. They are now the ones responsible for it. Onward and Upward.


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> I understand one of the papers (Express?) is calling for the EU flag to be declared illegal in the UK.
> 
> Is this the Britain people actually want, regardless of how you voted?
> 
> And when did the EU become the enemy?
> 
> No doubt some will support the silencing of opponents to this government, whether related to Brexit or not.
> 
> Oh yes, now the UK is leaving you can enjoy a cuppa without fear the EU intend to ban it!
> 
> Hate tea, always have done
> View attachment 430187


Eh! I voted remain. Im not entirely sure where you're going with this reply tbh!


----------



## Happy Paws2

11.00 pm


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> calling for the EU flag to be declared illegal in the UK.


No reason it would be illegal, any more than a Canadian flag would be. As far as UK is concerned, it will be redundant (here at least), which is not the same as illegal. You reckon it was the Express that suggested this . . . ? Hmmmm.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> IOh yes, now the UK is leaving you can enjoy a cuppa without fear the EU intend to ban it!


And why would they do that


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> No reason it would be illegal, any more than a Canadian flag would be. As far as UK is concerned, it will be redundant (here at least), which is not the same as illegal. You reckon it was the Express that suggested this . . . ? Hmmmm.


It wasn't the EU flag itself to be made illegal, but the *FLYING OF* the EU flag in the UK to be made illegal

A slight difference methinks?


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> 16,141,241 people will not be celebrating today, what ever BJ says.


Then they should've got off their complacent backsides and used their votes
No point in complaining about something you (royal you) didn't vote for cos you thought it was a done deal
There's no such thing


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> And why would they do that


If I remember rightly it was all to do with reducing the wattage of domestic electrical equipment like toasters and kettles and the rumour went round that the water wouldn't be hot enough to make a decent cup of tea


----------



## mrs phas

Magyarmum said:


> If I remember rightly it was all to do with reducing the wattage of domestic electrical equipment like toasters and kettles and the rumour went round that the water wouldn't be hot enough to make a decent cup of tea


Like they did with vacuums and now you can't get a decent suck for love nor money


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> A slight difference methinks?


Yes, there is a difference: I read the post but did not trawl thro' the DE to check what they maybe said (especially since the Daily Express had a question mark after it in the post) . . . but I honestly can't see the police carting someone away because they are flying a certain flag in their garden!


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Like they did with vacuums and now you can't get a decent suck for love nor money


I'll take your word for that!


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> Then they should've got off their complacent backsides and used their votes
> No point in complaining about something you (royal you) didn't vote for cos you thought it was a done deal
> There's no such thing


Are YOU saying I didn't vote, because I did, I voted REMAIN.


----------



## Bisbow

Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
Our farmers would be better off as well
The food thrown out is a sin


----------



## Elles

Bisbow said:


> Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
> After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
> Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
> Our farmers would be better off as well
> The food thrown out is a sin


They don't have to throw away wonky carrots, they're just lower class carrots. That makes me think of Kevin the carrot in Mary Poppins singing chim chim cheree. :Singing


----------



## Happy Paws2

I don't believe that you really believe that, it's was just the press been stupid. I've been on holiday in France for years and they have always had wonky veg. 

Plus it's our supermarkets that want good looking veg.


----------



## Bisbow

I only know what the manager of a supermarket told me

He nearly lost his job selling "seconds" He had to stick to EU rules

he French make a habit of breaking rules if it suits them


----------



## rona

I haven't read through it all but they seem to want all to conform in a pack
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32011R0543

Not sure how the wonky veg fits into that. They have reduced regulation a lot over the last few years


----------



## KittenKong

Seems not all on the far right are united with Brexit.

Poor Mr Johnson.:Hilarious

http://tuv.org.uk/brexit-celebrations-blighted-by-betrayal-of-northern-ireland/


----------



## KittenKong

MollySmith said:


> Eh! I voted remain. Im not entirely sure where you're going with this reply tbh!


It was more about your comment about the thread being closed that prompted that comment.

It was intended as a general comment rather than criticism of your post. Apologies if I gave the wrong impression.


----------



## MilleD

mrs phas said:


> Like they did with vacuums and now you can't get a decent suck for love nor money


----------



## MilleD

Bisbow said:


> Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
> After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
> Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
> Our farmers would be better off as well
> The food thrown out is a sin


But the supermarkets do sell wonky stuff. It's just that they have to ridiculously have to label it that way - and therefore more plastic etc.


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> Are YOU saying I didn't vote, because I did, I voted REMAIN.


Do you understand what is meant when someone adds
Royal........
To a post?
Its to indicate that its a general we, you, their, whatever
Not a personal one

Personnaly I could care less whatever anyone else voted, let alone take time out of, what's turned out to be, a very, very busy day, to castigate them about it


----------



## mrs phas

MilleD said:


>


:Angelic:Angelic

As if I would double entendre:Angelic


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> 11.00 pm


Not where I am, in Barcelona!


----------



## Happy Paws2

mrs phas said:


> Do you understand what is meant when someone adds
> Royal........


NO.. I didn't understand the phase, it's something I've never heard, and there is no need to be nasty.


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> NO.. I didn't understand the phase, it's something I've never heard, and there is no need to be nasty.


I assure you I wasn't.
Factual and to the point only
No nastiness implied or in my thoughts at all


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Not where I am, in Barcelona!


It's why it 11pm here and it's midnight in most of the EU.


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> It was more about your comment about the thread being closed that prompted that comment.
> 
> It was intended as a general comment rather than criticism of your post. Apologies if I gave the wrong impression.


Thanks for clairifying, I'd hate to piss anyone off. Twitter does a great job on that! And I think there's a few of us feeling fragile, worried and emotive.


----------



## MollySmith

Bisbow said:


> Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
> After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
> Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
> Our farmers would be better off as well
> The food thrown out is a sin


That hasn't been a thing since 2008, and thus not something anyone would have voted on, at least I hope not. Will someone regret vote based on the bend in a banana?


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> That hasn't been a thing since 2008, and thus not something anyone would have voted on, at least I hope not. Will someone regret vote based on the bend in a banana?


There interviewed someone tonight, he vote leave so we could start work on out interstructure as gthe EU have held us back, so he doesn't know that the EU have help fund most of our roads, hospitals, and rail projects. That's half the problem not everyone knows how much money the have pumped into this country.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> There interviewed someone tonight, he vote leave so we could start work on out interstructure as gthe EU have held us back, so he doesn't know that the EU have help fund most of our roads, hospitals, and rail projects. That's half the problem not everyone knows how much money the have pumped into this country.


The trouble is we give the Eu the money in the first place and they then decide what to spend it on. In my opinion it should have been spent on raising standards and pay in less well off countries and supporting poor communities in Europe, not on frivolities or expensive projects in the U.K. that our own government and businesses could be supporting if needed. Rather than giving us money back by paying for museums and drama centres and display plates announcing 'funded by the Eu', charge us less and get countries like Greece sorted out. The Eu has made some terrible mistakes. Eucalyptus trees in Portugal and plastic growing tunnels in Spain for a start.

I know you are an Eu supporter and are worried about what will happen now we've left, but they are just politicians and bureaucrats in the end and now we're leaving, we really do need to start putting pressure on our own, to maintain and improve standards. We mustn't let them slip. We must hold our elected MPs to account now.

It is a bit scary I admit. With one son in Gibraltar with his Spanish/Gib family and the other on his way to Spain to meet up with his partner, I hope everything works out. My house is barely big enough for 2, I can't put them all up if they get kicked out.  :Spitoutdummy


----------



## HarlequinCat

Happy Paws2 said:


> There interviewed someone tonight, he vote leave so we could start work on out interstructure as gthe EU have held us back, so he doesn't know that the EU have help fund most of our roads, hospitals, and rail projects. That's half the problem not everyone knows how much money the have pumped into this country.


I think the UK contributions to the EU were more than we were given back. The UK was one of the largest funders I think?

"The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back.

In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

Each year the UK gets a discount on its contributions to the EU-the 'rebate'-worth about £4 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £17 billion in contributions."

This quote was taken from a UK Independent Fact Checking charity
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

They did subsidise a lot of our farming though


----------



## Elles

HarlequinCat said:


> They did subsidise a lot of our farming though


Ouch! The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was a major bone of contention. I'm not sure whether you're being serious, or making a joke lol. It was mostly advantageous to French farmers and wealthy landowners. The Saudis who own a lot of land in the U.K. received subsidies, so did people like Dyson. It was one of the main complaints against the Eu.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> The trouble is we give the Eu the money in the first place and they then decide what to spend it on. In my opinion it should have been spent on raising standards and pay in less well off countries and supporting poor communities in Europe, not on frivolities or expensive projects in the U.K. that our own government and businesses could be supporting if needed. Rather than giving us money back by paying for museums and drama centres and display plates announcing 'funded by the Eu', charge us less and get countries like Greece sorted out. The Eu has made some terrible mistakes. Eucalyptus trees in Portugal and plastic growing tunnels in Spain for a start.
> 
> I know you are an Eu supporter and are worried about what will happen now we've left, but they are just politicians and bureaucrats in the end and now we're leaving, we really do need to start putting pressure on our own, to maintain and improve standards. We mustn't let them slip. We must hold our elected MPs to account now.
> 
> It is a bit scary I admit. With one son in Gibraltar with his Spanish/Gib family and the other on his way to Spain to meet up with his partner, I hope everything works out. My house is barely big enough for 2, I can't put them all up if they get kicked out.  :Spitoutdummy





HarlequinCat said:


> I think the UK contributions to the EU were more than we were given back. The UK was one of the largest funders I think?
> 
> "The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back.
> 
> In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at nearly £9 billion.
> 
> Each year the UK gets a discount on its contributions to the EU-the 'rebate'-worth about £4 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £17 billion in contributions."
> 
> This quote was taken from a UK Independent Fact Checking charity
> https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
> 
> They did subsidise a lot of our farming though





Elles said:


> Ouch! The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was a major bone of contention. I'm not sure whether you're being serious, or making a joke lol. It was mostly advantageous to French farmers and wealthy landowners. The Saudis who own a lot of land in the U.K. received subsidies, so did people like Dyson. It was one of the main complaints against the Eu.


I don't want to go over the same stuff from page 1... I'm absolutely clear about what I voted for and what the EU do. I did my research at the time throughly as I was somewhat appalled at what I didn't know. Let's not forget much Brexit has cost the country shall we?

However, I do agree that now is the time to hold the government to account. It will be interesting to see if they measure up. I have strong doubts but let's see.... so far a poor start on human compassion.

This link is however useful
https://what-europe-does-for-me.eu/en/portal


----------



## HarlequinCat

MollySmith said:


> I don't want to go over the same stuff from page 1... I'm absolutely clear about what I voted for and what the EU do. I did my research at the time throughly as I was somewhat appalled at what I didn't know. Let's not forget much Brexit has cost the country shall we?
> 
> However, I do agree that now is the time to hold the government to account. It will be interesting to see if they measure up. I have strong doubts but let's see.... so far a poor start on human compassion.
> 
> This link is however useful
> https://what-europe-does-for-me.eu/en/portal


I was just replying to what I read, I haven't followed this thread really. With brexit being official today I've just been reading recent comments. I'm not trying to disprove anyone of anything. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I didnt vote either way. There were things I didnt know so I couldnt make a decision. We're out now though so best to look on any bright side.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Elles said:


> Ouch! The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was a major bone of contention. I'm not sure whether you're being serious, or making a joke lol. It was mostly advantageous to French farmers and wealthy landowners. The Saudis who own a lot of land in the U.K. received subsidies, so did people like Dyson. It was one of the main complaints against the Eu.


That does seem the way it goes. The ones truly needing help get passed by. Dont forget MP landowners too. Bribery and Corruption?


----------



## shadowmare

Only 30mins left until the first weekly 350mln appears in the NHS account! :Greedy


----------



## MollySmith

shadowmare said:


> Only 30mins left until the first weekly 350mln appears in the NHS account! :Greedy


Hang on, our unbrushed leader has been held up by a Facebook chat. Michael Gove is on...'You okay hun?' He's forgotten the PIN number.

40 hospitals just in time for the coronavirus or the zombie apocalypse judging by the state of Parliament Square.


----------



## shadowmare

MollySmith said:


> Hang on, our unbrushed leader has been held up by a Facebook chat. Michael Gove is on...'You okay hun?' He's forgotten the PIN number.
> 
> 40 hospitals just in time for the coronavirus or the zombie apocalypse judging by the state of Parliament Square.


Luckily, we're not afraid of the virus or zombies round here in Scotland. The strong independence vibes and the atrocious weather conditions tend to create unwelcoming environment for both :Smug 
Though we're hopeful the weather won't repel the Leader of Down South from visiting us soon. After all, we hear he likes to dwell in cold places e.g fridges.


----------



## Jesthar

shadowmare said:


> Luckily, we're not afraid of the virus or zombies round here in Scotland. The strong independence vibes and the atrocious weather conditions tend to create unwelcoming environment for both :Smug


I do hope it doesn't jump another species barrier and impact the Haggis population, though, especially heading towards breeding season...


shadowmare said:


> Though we're hopeful the weather won't repel the Leader of Down South from visiting us soon. After all, we hear he likes to dwell in cold places e.g fridges.


Now there's a thought, delay him until the Haggis have littered, then you could take him out into the Highlands 'hunting' and leave him to the tender mercies of the nursing females - they're vicious, especially with wee yins at foot


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
> After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
> Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
> Our farmers would be better off as well
> The food thrown out is a sin


I was in a supermarket a year or so ago and they were selling boxes of misshapen vegetables for next to nothing. As you say, it's scandalous to waste edible food.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Maybe once we get settled we can put an end to all the food that is wasted because the EU says it must be the same size and shape
> After all a wonky carrot tastes just as good as a straight one
> Tons of food gets thrown out every year because the r supermarkets can't take it
> Our farmers would be better off as well
> The food thrown out is a sin


:Hilarious. About as funny as the person who voted leave because of bendy bananas and wanting Fish and Chips wrapped in newspaper again.

As a supporter of the EU, I've often been accused of putting "my" "country" down by not getting behind Brexit. So, why support the lowering of standards just to please the US in exchange for a trade deal? Hardly taking back control is it, but succumbing to the demands of a superpower.

Why accept second best?

I'm sure many farmers will embrace keeping chickens in worse conditions than they are already as they'll be chlorinated after being killed anyway.

Funny too that Gordon Brown was ridiculed when he preached, "Don't waste food".

Oh yes, confirmation of another anti EU myth they're doing away with selling eggs by the dozen of half dozen.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious. About as funny as the person who voted leave because of bendy bananas and wanting Fish and Chips wrapped in newspaper again.
> 
> As a supporter of the EU, I've often been accused of putting "my" "country" down by not getting behind Brexit. So, why support the lowering of standards just to please the US in exchange for a trade deal? Hardly taking back control is it, but succumbing to the demands of a superpower.
> 
> Why accept second best?
> 
> I'm sure many farmers will embrace keeping chickens in worse conditions than they are already as they'll be chlorinated after being killed anyway.
> 
> Funny too that Gordon Brown was ridiculed when he preached, "Don't waste food".
> 
> Oh yes, confirmation of another anti EU myth they're doing away with selling eggs by the dozen of half dozen.
> 
> View attachment 430244


I will ignore that
If you are happy to see tons of food wasted because it does not fit EU orders that could be put to good use
So be it

Well we are still here and did not fall into a big black hole last night
Now liik to a rosy future


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> I was in a supermarket a year or so ago and they were selling boxes of misshapen vegetables for next to nothing. As you say, it's scandalous to waste edible food.


That's the supermarket's choice.



Bisbow said:


> I will ignore that
> If you are happy to see tons of food wasted because it does not fit EU orders that could be put to good use
> So be it
> 
> Well we are still here and did not fall into a big black hole last night
> Now liik to a rosy future


*THIS HASN'T BEEN A THING SINCE 2008*

Christ Almighty how many more times! Do some of you even know what you voted for!?


----------



## MollySmith

What happens next.... there's a long road ahead.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ft-the-eu-what-happens-now-guide-negotiations


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> I will ignore that
> If you are happy to see tons of food wasted because it does not fit EU orders that could be put to good use
> So be it


I was watching Country File sometime last year and they went to a farm and was showed a very large pile of carrots didn't meet the standards of the supermarket he had a contract with nothing to do them the EU. They went to other farms and the same thing was happening on them and not just carrots, every veg was there. If it did look straight, round or pointed or conform with the supermarkets standards there just rotted or went for animal feed. EU had nothing to do with it.


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious. About as funny as the person who voted leave because of bendy bananas and wanting Fish and Chips wrapped in newspaper again.
> 
> As a supporter of the EU, I've often been accused of putting "my" "country" down by not getting behind Brexit. So, why support the lowering of standards just to please the US in exchange for a trade deal? Hardly taking back control is it, but succumbing to the demands of a superpower.
> 
> Why accept second best?
> 
> I'm sure many farmers will embrace keeping chickens in worse conditions than they are already as they'll be chlorinated after being killed anyway.
> 
> Funny too that Gordon Brown was ridiculed when he preached, "Don't waste food".
> 
> Oh yes, confirmation of another anti EU myth they're doing away with selling eggs by the dozen of half dozen.
> 
> View attachment 430244


There was a thing on BBC Sounds Brexitcast about how supporters on remain or leave are becoming their own sound boxes, that's to say keep perfecting the message and it becomes fact. All things in the next 12 months are going to be judged entirely on Brexit, good and bad, but that actually we will see very little difference until a year. It's phrased much better than I can but it was a good answer to the question, when do we see changes and how do we know if Brexit was a good or bad idea. We won't know for a long time and anything now will be a repeated rhetoric. I think that's the danger of this thread - old arguments and why I called out a few replies yet.

Basically to early to gloat at leaving unless one is Farage who isn't human, and too early to pick bigger holes on the remain side.


----------



## Bisbow

Christ Almighty how many more times! Do some of you even know what you voted for!?[/QUOTE]

I know EXACTLYY what I voted for and with luck will live to see it happen

I'm not afraid to look to the future
Are you


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I was watching Country File sometime last year and they went to a farm and was showed a very large pile of carrots didn't meet the standards of the supermarket he had a contract with nothing to do them the EU. They went to other farms and the same thing was happening on them and not just carrots, every veg was there. If it did look straight, round or pointed or conform with the supermarkets standards there just rotted or went for animal feed. EU had nothing to do with it.


Thank you. Weirdly my veg box has sold wonky stuff for years. We've had one since before 2008, I think the company began in 2001 and we were first sign ups. Both owners avoided jail...! Really a lot of the stuff around the EU and veg quoted on here is bollocks. And whilst I can see that it wasn't probably the only reason people voted (one hopes) but really?!!


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> :Hilarious. About as funny as the person who voted leave because of bendy bananas and wanting Fish and Chips wrapped in newspaper again.
> 
> As a supporter of the EU, I've often been accused of putting "my" "country" down by not getting behind Brexit. So, why support the lowering of standards just to please the US in exchange for a trade deal? Hardly taking back control is it, but succumbing to the demands of a superpower.
> 
> Why accept second best?
> 
> I'm sure many farmers will embrace keeping chickens in worse conditions than they are already as they'll be chlorinated after being killed anyway.
> 
> Funny too that Gordon Brown was ridiculed when he preached, "Don't waste food".
> 
> Oh yes, confirmation of another anti EU myth they're doing away with selling eggs by the dozen of half dozen.
> 
> View attachment 430244


The Spanish would follow that rule about as well as the not smoking in pubs and restaurants I guess. So not really sure of the point you are making.


----------



## MollySmith

Bisbow said:


> I know EXACTLYY what I voted for and with luck will live to see it happen
> 
> I'm not afraid to look to the future
> Are you


I really have no words... good luck with the crystal ball, I hope it's a perfect sphere.

Nevertheless you are discussing an out of date rule, how can you possibly begin to say you know exactly what you voted for?


----------



## JANICE199

*Just thought i'd show my face now we have left. I bet everyone is feeling a lot happier today. ( joke )*
*Would like to add this, This thread has proven that we as members can have a good debate whether we agree or disagree when we are left to it. Well done all. *


----------



## Magyarmum

Well here in Hungary you find wonky veggies in with the "non" wonky ones - and sold at the same price! 

As for eggs packed in cartons holding 6 we have those too! I would have thought the reason behind there being 6 in a carton rather than 5 is based on pure logic,rather than any EU regulation. After all 6 is an equal number whilst 5 is not and how do you design a carton to only hold 5?


----------



## mrs phas

I still woke up this morning
i still walked the dogs
i still saw the same people
breathed the same air ( well nearly, you know what i mean)
the wind still blew
the earth still turned
we are still part of europe
for the little people, scraping by every day, just to make ends meet
noting has changed
no earthquakes
no tsunamis
no godzilla rising from the ocean
no one struck down by lightening
it just happened
perhaps we can now get on with life


----------



## Bisbow

mrs phas said:


> I still woke up this morning
> i still walked the dogs
> i still saw the same people
> breathed the same air ( well nearly, you know what i mean)
> the wind still blew
> the earth still turned
> we are still part of europe
> for the little people, scraping by every day, just to make ends meet
> noting has changed
> no earthquakes
> no tsunamis
> no godzilla rising from the ocean
> no one struck down by lightening
> it just happened
> perhaps we can now get on with life


The most sensible post on here in ages


----------



## rona

Yesterday I was ruled by unelected Commissioners and a president I had no say in appointing. Today I wake up to a British Prime minister I voted in and an accountable British parliament


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> That's the supermarket's choice


I know that: there was no need to point that out to me. I was merely daring to suggest that attempting NOT to waste food was commendable (in my opinion).


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> Christ Almighty how many more times! Do some of you even know what you voted for!?


I know EXACTLYY what I voted for and with luck will live to see it happen

I'm not afraid to look to the future
Are you[/QUOTE]

I know *EXACTLY* why I voted remain, and *YES* I am worried about the future, but at my age I don't have worry about it for to long, I really fear for the younger generations.


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> Oh yes, confirmation of another anti EU myth they're doing away with selling eggs by the dozen of half dozen.


I have to wonder where you get all this ''information'' from; and buying 10 instead of 12 would not concern me, tho' not sure what shape of box they would have for five eggs.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Yesterday I was ruled by unelected Commissioners and a president I had no say in appointing. Today I wake up to a British Prime minister I voted in and an accountable British parliament


I really worried about people who think like that. Do you really BJ thinks about us.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know EXACTLYY what I voted for and with luck will live to see it happen
> 
> I'm not afraid to look to the future
> Are you


I know *EXACTLY* why I voted remain, and *YES* I am worried about the future, but at my age I don't have worry about it for to long, I really fear for the younger generations.[/QUOTE]

I voted leave for the sake of the younger generation
I want my grandchildren to be able to think for themselves and not be treated like babies by faceless wonders telling them what to do, what to think
Hopefully they will now get the chance to live as they want


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> I know *EXACTLY* why I voted remain, and *YES* I am worried about the future, but at my age I don't have worry about it for to long, I really fear for the younger generations.


I voted leave for the sake of the younger generation
I want my grandchildren to be able to think for themselves and not be treated like babies by faceless wonders telling them what to do, what to think
Hopefully they will now get the chance to live as they want[/QUOTE]

_I have never felt that I couldn't think for myself or that I have been treated like a baby, I have always lived how I wanted to except for some of the tory regulations since the got in power, I just hope that we get the freedom you want but BJ at the helm I doubt it._


----------



## Beth78

I think the last thing this world needs is to be more divided.
I know very little of politics and economics, I voted remain mostly because I have known and worked with the most amazing Europeans.
Diversity is an amazing thing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I was thinking reading most of the posts on here, why has the EU has got the blame for the wrongs we have in our country, don't you think that our own governments over the years have had a lot to do with it most of the problems we have in the country. It's them that has let our roads and rail fall part, it's them that refused to help when companies have been in trouble, they blame the EU but other EU countries have helped there industries when they were in trouble. 
Our governments mainly the tories have use the EU as an excuse not to help, saying we aren't allowed to help. Bl**dy rubbish.


----------



## Bisbow

I firmly believe my grandchildren will have the world at their feet now and will be able to anything

As I am in my twilight years I won't get much benefit from our new freedom

Just as well we don't all think the same way isn't it
Be a dull world if we did


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> I firmly believe my grandchildren will have the world at their feet now and will be able to anything


You may be right. Would be nice if you are. My coldly logical mind, though, is calmly pointing out that, as a small and divided fish on their own in a global pond with many much bigger fish and relatively few desireable assets, future opportunites are statistically likely to come with their terms dictated by those bigger fish.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> *I firmly believe my grandchildren will have the world at their feet now and will be able to anything*
> 
> As I am in my twilight years I won't get much benefit from our new freedom
> 
> Just as well we don't all think the same way isn't it
> Be a dull world if we did


And you really think they couldn't when we were in the EU. Why?


----------



## shadowmare

Bisbow said:


> I firmly believe my grandchildren will have the world at their feet now and will be able to anything
> 
> As I am in my twilight years I won't get much benefit from our new freedom
> 
> Just as well we don't all think the same way isn't it
> Be a dull world if we did


It's funny how plenty of people managed to succeed over the last 40 years with UK being in the EU. What is it that stoped your grandchildren up until now?


----------



## Dave S

Well, it's been over 12 hours since 800 pages of Brexit up to 11pm last night.
I went to bed at 10 anyway as I am full of cold but apart from that I do not feel any different.

By the time my grandchildren are in a position to "change the world" we would have settled down as a nation and hopefully have good trading terms around the world and prosperity for all. 
My wife and I have been successful, we do not have any debt. Savings, investments and property prices are on the rise, both retired and not using our pensions etc so we look forward to after the honeymoon period when UK would have settled down and see where we go then.

In the meantime, now the UK has left Europe, I wonder if any other countries would also leave, would be interesting to see if others follow suit especially if UK can prove that we can indeed go it alone and succeed but we need to be our own nation, not the next American state.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dave S said:


> not the next American state.


I hope not as well, Trump is already saying if thing don't go the way he wants, any medicines we buy from the USA will go up in price.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> I voted leave for the sake of the younger generation
> I want my grandchildren to be able to think for themselves and not be treated like babies by faceless wonders telling them what to do, what to think
> Hopefully they will now get the chance to live as they want


You'll be disappointed to learn cigarette vending machines and open tobacco sales are still around here in Spain.

It was the Cameron Tory government who introduced plain packaging and sales behind closed counters, not the EU. That goes for many more "Nanny state" measures as adopted by UK government's old and new. Speed limits in 1967, crash helmets and compulsory seat belts in the early 1980s.

You have deprived future generations of Erasmus and other benefits.

As we'd say in our neck of the woods, "You've been had bonny lad"

I almost feel sorry for you actually.


----------



## Elles

I think part of the problem is that the carrot has to meet a specific standard to be a “class 1” carrot and no one will buy lower class carrots. Unless they are marked as special carrots, which makes them better and more exclusive than average class 1 carrots that all look the same. 

Humans are crazy. The eu because they invented a class of carrots and everyone else who thinks a crooked carrot is lower class and going to contaminate higher class vegetables. :Hilarious

I don’t live in an echo chamber, because no one echos my thoughts. I am unique. 

The illusion of truth, where the lie becomes less important than its effect. Or something like that.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Magyarmum said:


> Well here in Hungary you find wonky veggies in with the "non" wonky ones - and sold at the same price!
> 
> As for eggs packed in cartons holding 6 we have those too! I would have thought the reason behind there being 6 in a carton rather than 5 is based on pure logic,rather than any EU regulation. After all 6 is an equal number whilst 5 is not and how do you design a carton to only hold 5?


Waitrose sell them in 9's!


----------



## KittenKong

You're on your own now Little England. I wonder if your adopted Present Trump will come to your aid?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-talks-eu-to-back-spain-over-gibraltar-claims


----------



## Beth78

"A £1.6bn government fund has been launched to boost less well-off towns in England after Brexit."
More money for the working man, this has been said before methinks.


----------



## Elles

Gibraltar have asked to become part of Shengen outside the Eu. Lichtenstein is an example.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> I almost feel sorry for you actually.


Don't bother feeling sorry for me
I think you will be the disheartened one in years to come when your doom and gloom thoughts fail to happen


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I really worried about people who think like that. Do you really BJ thinks about us.


No, I don't think he give a toss about us, however, when he's served his purpose we the people can change him, we won't be relying on the old boys network or the moneyed to decide who rules. Surely all this Brexit stuff has proved that?

I know you are going to say no to that last question because you and many many others think that we who voted out are too thick to know why


----------



## DogLover1981

Dave S said:


> In the meantime, now the UK has left Europe, I wonder if any other countries would also leave, would be interesting to see if others follow suit especially if UK can prove that we can indeed go it alone and succeed but we need to be our own nation, not the next American state.


I personally think that the most likely scenario is that the UK will rejoin the EU in another 10 or 20 years.


----------



## Magyarmum

Beth78 said:


> "A £1.6bn government fund has been launched to boost less well-off towns in England after Brexit."
> More money for the working man, this has been said before methinks.
> View attachment 430256


No offense meant but can I ask why you chose to post a photo of a Russian villager even though you'r talking about the UK?


----------



## Happy Paws2

I would never say that.

I just think that when we voted we weren't give any real information about what was withdrawal was going to mean to the country, lets face it even BJ and the other twit didn't really know what was going to happen, they just wanted everyone to vote out, then they'd muddle though how we would leave and what they want afterwards.


----------



## Happy Paws2

DogLover1981 said:


> I personally think that the most likely scenario is that the UK will rejoin the EU in another 10 or 20 years.


After the way we have treated them, do you really think they'd have us back.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> After the way we have treated them, do you really think they'd have us back.


In a heartbeat. Of course they would


----------



## Beth78

Magyarmum said:


> No offense meant but can I ask why you chose to post a photo of a Russian villager even though you'r talking about the UK?


Because the photo is bleak, didn't know he was Russian.
Another stupid mistake by yours truly.:Banghead:Bag


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> You'll be disappointed to learn cigarette vending machines and open tobacco sales are still around here in Spain.
> 
> It was the Cameron Tory government who introduced plain packaging and sales behind closed counters, not the EU. That goes for many more "Nanny state" measures as adopted by UK government's old and new. Speed limits in 1967, crash helmets and compulsory seat belts in the early 1980s.
> 
> You have deprived future generations of Erasmus and other benefits.
> 
> As we'd say in our neck of the woods, "You've been had bonny lad"
> 
> I almost feel sorry for you actually.


Please get your facts right. The EU introduced plain packaging of cigarettes

https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/50/5/1701232

*Plain packaging of tobacco products in the European Union: an EU success story?*

Same with seat belt and safety helmets - EU regulations

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/users/young-people/seatbelt_en

*MOBILITY AND TRANSPORT*

In Hungary, you can only buy cigarettes and tobacco at the National Tobacco Shops, nowhere else and in the more rural areas these are often few and far between.

https://dailynewshungary.com/watch-rules-smokers-hungary/

*Watch out for these rules for smokers in Hungary

*


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> In a heartbeat. Of course they would


Why?


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Why?


Be a great feather in their cap wouldn't it?

UK not being able to manage without them................Not going to happen like that though


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Be a great feather in there cap wouldn't it?
> 
> UK not being able to manage without them................Not going to happen like that though


Scotland might


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> After the way we have treated them, do you really think they'd have us back.


They would have us ack just to squeeze as much money out of is as they could to pay us back for wanting our independence


----------



## Lurcherlad

Beth78 said:


> Because the photo is bleak, didn't know he was Russian.
> Another stupid mistake by yours truly.:Banghead:Bag


To err is human, to forgive, Devine 

I got what you meant btw


----------



## Lurcherlad

DogLover1981 said:


> I personally think that the most likely scenario is that the UK will rejoin the EU in another 10 or 20 years.


I hope not!


----------



## Dave S

Magyarmum said:


> Same with seat belt and safety helmets - EU regulations
> https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/users/young-people/seatbelt_en


Many things that came about from the EU would have been common sensed based - Seat belts in particular.
I worked in retail franchised motor trade for almost 50 years and have seen the effect of drivers and passengers not wearing seat belts so many times. Many died from injuries and we used to be a stopping place for Ambulances to get cleaned up before their next job.

Coincidently when I used to race a motor bike outfit we had a crash at Brands Hatch - this was before straw bales, just Amoco crash barriers, and I was blue lighted to hospital with injuries. The guy in the next bed was in a bad way as he had a car crash and went through the windscreen - he looked like he had been through a cheese grater. Nasty state but my injuries were not as bad as his.

Always believed and used seat belts.


----------



## Magyarmum

Beth78 said:


> Because the photo is bleak, didn't know he was Russian.
> Another stupid mistake by yours truly.:Banghead:Bag


No problem!I

Unlike @Lurcherlad I'm a few brain cells short and was confuuuzzed


----------



## Magyarmum

Dave S said:


> Many things that came about from the EU would have been common sensed based - Seat belts in particular.
> I worked in retail franchised motor trade for almost 50 years and have seen the effect of drivers and passengers not wearing seat belts so many times. Many died from injuries and we used to be a stopping place for Ambulances to get cleaned up before their next job.
> 
> Coincidently when I used to race a motor bike outfit we had a crash at Brands Hatch - this was before straw bales, just Amoco crash barriers, and I was blue lighted to hospital with injuries. The guy in the next bed was in a bad way as he had a car crash and went through the windscreen - he looked like he had been through a cheese grater. Nasty state but my injuries were not as bad as his.
> 
> Always believed and used seat belts.


A very good friend of mine was a quadriplegic having been thrown through the windscreen.

I was more fortunate I didn't suffer the same fate when the car I was a passenger in, skidded on gravel and dropped 12 metres onto the Paseo Maritimo at Fuengirola Spain. and ended up smashing into the side of a house.

I escaped with whiplash!


----------



## Magyarmum

On a lighter note!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Not sure how true this is. Any none EU pensioner who live in Spain has to pay 25% tax on their pension to the Spanish government, unless we can get an agreement I can see lots of pensioners having to come back here.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Not sure how true this is. Any none EU pensioner who live in Spain has to pay 25% tax on their pension to the Spanish government, unless we can get an agreement I can see lots of pensioners having to come back here.


It's always been high 
This from May last year

https://expatra.com/guides/spain/uk-pensions-and-tax-when-living-in-spain/
Your UK state pension will be taxed a regular income in Spain according to Spanish rates. Spanish income tax rates currently run in incremental stages between 24 to 43%, but these figures change annually so check.


----------



## KittenKong

DogLover1981 said:


> I personally think that the most likely scenario is that the UK will rejoin the EU in another 10 or 20 years.


Can't ever see that happening sadly. They won't be a UK for one thing!


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> Not sure how true this is. Any none EU pensioner who live in Spain has to pay 25% tax on their pension to the Spanish government, unless we can get an agreement I can see lots of pensioners having to come back here.


Is this what you're talking about?

It's nothing to do with the State Pension but offshore pensions and tax avoidance.

https://www.ft.com/content/276e26e4-0594-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12

*Expats face 25 per cent tax charge on offshore pensions*


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> Not sure how true this is. Any none EU pensioner who live in Spain has to pay 25% tax on their pension to the Spanish government, unless we can get an agreement I can see lots of pensioners having to come back here.[/QUOTMy friend just sold her place in Spain and moved to Gibraltar as not to pay that tax, she plans to retire soon...
> 
> Spain few years ago wanted to tax foreigners very high tax on second property, but was stopped by EU regulations - EU citizens cannot be treated differently to Spanish nationals and as most foreigners living in Spain are from EU Spain could not do it...
> Yes. Many Brits are now selling in Spain to buy in Portugal...


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-goes-missing-in-action-on-his-big-brexit-day


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-goes-missing-in-action-on-his-big-brexit-day
> 
> View attachment 430273


Can just imagine the headlines if he was seen celebrating.
Boris Johnson gloating while half the country is distraught over Brexit............or something far far worse

He made a statement, What more do they want?


----------



## rona

Here you go
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-to-the-nation-31-january-2020

He's just not a Press puppet


----------



## shadowmare

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-goes-missing-in-action-on-his-big-brexit-day
> 
> View attachment 430273


Someone should put out an announcement requesting everyone to check their fridges.


----------



## Dave S

What about he guy who has camped outside Parliament for the last few years and shouting his head off. As well as being in the background on news reports - is he now going home as he is redundant?


----------



## KittenKong

Guess Johnson will come up with a new version of the Spitfire next.

From Billy Bragg on Facebook:

TAKE ME BACK TO DEAR OLD BLIGHTY - will Boris' Brexit suffer the same fate as the Boris Bus?
Back when Boris Johnson was mayor of London, he commissioned a new fleet of buses for the city to replace the driver-only operated buses widely used by Transport for London. The design he came up with was based on most iconic London bus, the Routemaster, in service from the late 50s until the last were phased out in 2005. Entered by an open platform at the back, the Routemaster required a crew of two: a driver, and a conductor to collect fares. 
Wishing to hark back to image of Swinging London, Johnson commissioned the New Routemaster, which reintroduced the rear entrance and the conductor. Having been designed to order, the buses were much more expensive than off-the-shelf models that were already in production.
Soon after their introduction, Transport for London dispensed with the conductor as too costly. With no one to collect fares from people using the back platform, fare dodging increased to such an extent that some routes were curtailed or cut due to what looked like a significant drop in passenger numbers.
This week it was announced that the back doors would be closed permanently and the buses would revert to the front entry, driver-only operated model that the new Routemasters were designed to replace. The whole project has cost a huge amount of money yet delivered very little discernable change. Johnson's exercise in nostalgia collapsed in the face of economic realities. 
As crowds gathered in Parliament Square last night to wave union jacks and sing 'Take Me Back To Dear Old Blighty' - the Leave voter's version of MAGA - it occurred to me that the fate of Brexit may yet turn out to be very similar to that of the Boris Bus: a costly project sold on an appeal to the past that proves unworkable when put in to practice because, in trying to evoke the good old days, it ignored the advantages of the current arrangements.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I do hope to live long enough to see UK joining back... Just wait for that great deal with Trump...


----------



## Lurcherlad

Dave S said:


> What about he guy who has camped outside Parliament for the last few years and shouting his head off. As well as being in the background on news reports - is he now going home as he is redundant?


Apparently Crowd Funders have kept him in a flat nearby for the duration 

He was on tv the other day, packing up to move out.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> He's just not a Press puppet


You could have fooled me, unless you're referring to Andrew Neil!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> do you really think they'd have us back.


They would be happy to get our money, I imagine.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> You could have fooled me, unless you're referring to Andrew Neil!


Rather proves my point there doesn't it?


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> Can just imagine the headlines if he was seen celebrating.


 We'd see the same headlines as we saw when the MEPs waved their flags I guess. If they had sloped off without doing anything to acknowledge their departure, that would have been wrong too with headlines to match.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> We'd see the same headlines as we saw when the MEPs waved their flags I guess. If they had sloped off without doing anything to acknowledge their departure, that would have been wrong too with headlines to match.


I think our MEPs behaved like children waving their flags and insulting to our friends in the EU.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 430358


That's disgusting, just because we have left the EU doesn't stop us twinning with our European friends. Twinning has nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 430358


This is the sort of thing that no reasonable person wants to see. Completely unnecessary to paint out the Twinning.

Some people are just t*ssers!


----------



## Mitchell Perry

Yes, people were letting fireworks off and i didn't even realise why until the next day. Can't believe some people celebrated so hard to wake up in the morning to 0 changes.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Mitchell Perry said:


> Yes, people were letting fireworks off and i didn't even realise why until the next day. Can't believe some people celebrated so hard to wake up in the morning to 0 changes.


What changed were to happen overnight?
EU citizens vanished?


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, that rules out any British applicants from the New Year...


----------



## Happy Paws2

How many points do you think we'll get in this years Eurovision Song Contest.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> How many points do you think we'll get in this years Eurovision Song Contest.


Who cares?


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> How many points do you think we'll get in this years Eurovision Song Contest.


 I'll put my money on ''nul points''! I used to watch it when Terry Wogan was in charge; he made me laugh with his outrageous comments.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's disgusting, just because we have left the EU doesn't stop us twinning with our European friends. Twinning has nothing to do with the EU.


Exactly! I do wish people wouldn't think we're leaving Europe, we're not. Some people are just idiots.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> How many points do you think we'll get in this years Eurovision Song Contest.


Hopefully, we won't bother any more 

Yes, I know we're still in Europe but it's dire!


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Oh dear, that rules out any British applicants from the New Year...
> View attachment 430380
> View attachment 430381


I dont really understand the point of this copy and paste. They obviously just haven't updated there system.


----------



## Jesthar

stuaz said:


> I dont really understand the point of this copy and paste. They obviously just haven't updated there system.


_Their_ system 

And I'm not so sure (FoM hasn't ended for us either, yet). Ryanair have been leaning rather more towards EU centralisation than UK retention for some time since the referendum, so it would make more sense for them to focus on their EU operations. They operate on such a slender margin it may be more sensible for them to close UK operations and leave the market to the pricier carriers.

Guess we'll have to wait and see, but BoJo is already tanking the pound by talking of a hard Brexit...


----------



## stuaz

Jesthar said:


> _Their_ system
> 
> And I'm not so sure (FoM hasn't ended for us either, yet). Ryanair have been leaning rather more towards EU centralisation than UK retention for some time since the referendum, so it would make more sense for them to focus on their EU operations. They operate on such a slender margin it may be more sensible for them to close UK operations and leave the market to the pricier carriers.
> 
> Guess we'll have to wait and see, but BoJo is already tanking the pound by talking of a hard Brexit...


Looking at the other jobs the ones based in the UK seem to specifically request unrestricted rights to work in the UK.

My guess is the ones for cabin staff are just copied and pasted across the different countries they are recruiting in as the role will be the same regardless.


----------



## rona

Wouldn't it come under Discrimination?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Wouldn't it come under Discrimination?


Not if it is a requirement to do the job in an effective manner, no - and you can't be effective EU air crew if you can't travel freely in the EU. Much like firefighters can't have beards or stubble, even for religious reasons, as it would affect the seal of breathing apparatus.


----------



## MollySmith

And here we go.... 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1580747094


----------



## stuaz

I imagine the cabin crew would just get transit visas like other non-EU countries have to do.


----------



## Elles

MollySmith said:


> And here we go....
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1580747094


The invited ones were nearly all anti Boris though. The Guardian and Laura from the beeb aren't Boris or conservative fans. Did they walk out to imply that only Boris supporters are allowed in?


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> The invited ones were nearly all anti Boris though. The Guardian and Laura from the beeb aren't Boris or conservative fans. Did they walk out to imply that only Boris supporters are allowed in?


It smacks of Trump. It's all very strange.


----------



## rona

From what I can gather, the general public are more than happy for the government to side step the press.
Social media seems much more direct and reliable


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> Not if it is a requirement to do the job in an effective manner, no - and you can't be effective EU air crew if you can't travel freely in the EU. Much like firefighters can't have beards or stubble, even for religious reasons, as it would affect the seal of breathing apparatus.


What did they do before we joined the Common Market/EEC/EU?

I'm sure there's a practical solution.


----------



## rona

EU protectionism didn't exist then did it?


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> From what I can gather, the general public are more than happy for the government to side step the press.
> Social media seems much more direct and reliable


The trouble is less accountability, or at least that's what BBC say.. as one would expect! But in terms of social media, it's so easy to twist truths, certainly on Twitter and create mayhem. The volume of quotes and memes used on here to persuade an argument and many are dubious evidence.

The trouble with Boris on Facebook on Friday (as it would be with any politician of any party) meant he had no challenges or can wilfully ignore them, delete or block and vice versa. I rely on the likes of Peston to make politicians squirm in a way that none of us can because we don't have that level of knowledge. It feels a little dictatorial and I'm curious where it goes especially with the future over the BBC under the microscope and how powerful the media still is. It wielded a lot of power during Brexit on all sides.


----------



## shadowmare

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...aunch-£5m-anti-independence-ad-blitz-scotland

Now that Brexit has been finalised, the unicorns are getting their last rabies vaccinations before getting imported to UK from the land beyond the rainbow, and the amazing 40 trade deals about to be announced any day now, BJ has a new project. I'm so excited. Can't wait to see the choice of design for the new campaign buses! What will he promise? 350mln per week for our schools? A free kilt for every person? Bringing back of the old IrnBru recipe? To take every single Scot Conservative down south? Promise tonever visit Scotland again?


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I do wish people wouldn't think we're leaving Europe,


 I recall that in the early days there were some people (including a few on PF) who thought we were leaving Europe and were anti-Brexit for that reason.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> I imagine the cabin crew would just get transit visas like other non-EU countries have to do.


and Euro Star drivers, the Shuttle crews, ferry crews, couch drivers and lorry drivers the list goes on............


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> and Euro Star drivers, the Shuttle crews, ferry crews, couch drivers and lorry drivers the list goes on............


I'd love to be a couch driver    Sounds really comfi


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> The trouble is less accountability, or at least that's what BBC say.. as one would expect! But in terms of social media, it's so easy to twist truths, certainly on Twitter and create mayhem. The volume of quotes and memes used on here to persuade an argument and many are dubious evidence.
> 
> The trouble with Boris on Facebook on Friday (as it would be with any politician of any party) meant he had no challenges or can wilfully ignore them, delete or block and vice versa. I rely on the likes of Peston to make politicians squirm in a way that none of us can because we don't have that level of knowledge. It feels a little dictatorial and I'm curious where it goes especially with the future over the BBC under the microscope and how powerful the media still is. It wielded a lot of power during Brexit on all sides.


You don't think the press twist the truth!!

The trouble with Peston and virtually all other interviewers is their own bias shines through. The only one that seems to be almost non bias is Andrew Marr but his interviewing technique has become rather confrontational, with him talking for at least 2/3rds of the time and not allowing a reply...........pointless


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> The trouble is less accountability, or at least that's what BBC say.. as one would expect! But in terms of social media, it's so easy to twist truths, certainly on Twitter and create mayhem. The volume of quotes and memes used on here to persuade an argument and many are dubious evidence.
> 
> The trouble with Boris on Facebook on Friday (as it would be with any politician of any party) meant he had no challenges or can wilfully ignore them, delete or block and vice versa. I rely on the likes of Peston to make politicians squirm in a way that none of us can because we don't have that level of knowledge. It feels a little dictatorial and I'm curious where it goes especially with the future over the BBC under the microscope and how powerful the media still is. It wielded a lot of power during Brexit on all sides.


The BBC aren't reporting it. I can't see a thing on their website!


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> You don't think the press twist the truth!!
> 
> The trouble with Peston and virtually all other interviewers is their own bias shines through. The only one that seems to be almost non bias is Andrew Marr but his interviewing technique has become rather confrontational, with him talking for at least 2/3rds of the time and not allowing a reply...........pointless


Nope that's not what I said! I was going to say in my first reply that the media can twist to suit agendas but thought that was pointing out the obvious.

Social media is much more likely to be tangled because of the volume. I work with social media experts and even in business, methodology gets changed to suit the messaging or brand. It really can't be relied on for facts on politics!


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> What did they do before we joined the Common Market/EEC/EU?
> 
> I'm sure there's a practical solution.


No idea, I wasn't born then! 

And there probably is, but - as ever - it will cost time and money. That might make it unprofitable for the budget airlines that operate soley within the EU (and rely heavily on FoM etc. in their operational model) to continue with a UK service. That's not to say that air travel to and from the UK will stop, of course it won't, but it may be that costs drive the budget airlines out of the market, and flight prices in general increase to more along the lines of BA/Virgin/other international carrier levels.

You also have to bear in mind that the world of today is very different from when we joined. In 1970, for example, under 200 milion people globally travelled internationally by air to go on holiday. In 2018, that number reached 1.4 _billion_. 'We managed before we joined' is a nice soundbite, but not exactly practical.


----------



## Elles

I thought it was bad to fly anywhere these days and we should go back to under 200 million? It cost me £26 to fly to Gibraltar and back last time I went. It costs more to get the train to the local seaside. Are flights that cheap a good thing? We can book a flight to Spain right now for £21.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Nope that's not what I said! I was going to say in my first reply that the media can twist to suit agendas but thought that was pointing out the obvious.
> 
> *Social media is much more likely to be tangled because of the volume. I work with social media experts and even in business, methodology gets changed to suit the messaging or brand. It really can't be relied on for facts on politics*!


Doesn't it just? And there's newsjacking which is when brands use hashtags to get traffic. Heaps of peeps have social media accounts designed to do this because it makes money. I had five invites to join Boris Johnson on Facebook. I wasn't able to comment on anything he said. I have given up on Twitter as users there twists _everything_.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> I thought it was bad to fly anywhere these days and we should go back to under 200 million? It cost me £26 to fly to Gibraltar and back last time I went. It costs more to get the train to the local seaside. Are flights that cheap a good thing? We can book a flight to Spain right now for £21.


Couldn't care less about cheap flights myself either. I've only flown twice - Northern Ireland and back years ago for a work scenario, and Florida a couple of years ago (definitely a bucket list trip  ). But a lot of people do, and may get rather cross...


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Nope that's not what I said! I was going to say in my first reply that the media can twist to suit agendas but thought that was pointing out the obvious.
> 
> Social media is much more likely to be tangled because of the volume. I work with social media experts and even in business, methodology gets changed to suit the messaging or brand. It really can't be relied on for facts on politics!


We are talking at cross purposes I feel


----------



## rona

A local council has just received from the government a very handsome sum to deal with rough sleepers. It's up to them to spend it wisely


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> Looking at the other jobs the ones based in the UK seem to specifically request unrestricted rights to work in the UK.
> 
> My guess is the ones for cabin staff are just copied and pasted across the different countries they are recruiting in as the role will be the same regardless.


I stand to be corrected but contrary to what some appear to think, I doubt whether the advert is intended to exclude UK citizens from applying.

As far as I understand It's a legal term for a company to announce that they won't consider candidates who require any special sponsorship or paperwork in order to work for them,.nor will the company assist candidates to acquire them. And I would also imagine it includes any other impediment such as a criminal record.or restrictions against them working in certain types of jobs. It's also probable that some of the applicants could be nationals of countries outside of Europe which could exclude them from consideration. I believe I'm right in saying employing someone who hasn't got the correct paperwork attracts a heavy fine for both the company and employee.

On page 11 of the Visa Code Handbook - European Commission PDF it states that air flight crew and sea crew are exempt from needing a visa during the normal course of their duties.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...140709_visa_code_handbook_consolidated_en.pdf

.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> As far as I understand It's a legal term for a company to announce that they won't consider candidates who require any special sponsorship or paperwork in order to work for them,.nor will the company assist candidates to acquire them. And I would also imagine it includes any other impediment such as a criminal record.or restrictions against them working in certain types of jobs. It's also probable that some of the applicants could be nationals of countries outside of Europe which could exclude them from consideration. I believe I'm right in saying employing someone who hasn't got the correct paperwork attracts a heavy fine for both the company and employee.


Under normal circumstances I'd agree 100%, but in this case I note the specification is 'unrestricted right to live and work in the EU' - I may be wrong, but this is a bit of a curve ball at the moment as with Brexit and the ending of FoM UK citizens may not be regarded as having that any more, plus we'll be 'nationals of countries outside of Europe' in a legal and technical sense, if not a physical sense.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> and Euro Star drivers, the Shuttle crews, ferry crews, couch drivers and lorry drivers the list goes on............


Personally (and it's just my opinion) I don't believe free movement of people between countries without proper checks in place is a good thing so if it means that's a truck driver or cabin crew have to get a transit visa that covers a long period of time, just like the rest of the world then so be it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> Personally (and it's just my opinion) I don't believe free movement of people between countries without proper checks in place is a good thing so if it means that's a truck driver or cabin crew have to get a transit visa that covers a long period of time, just like the rest of the world then so be it.


Well have fun in the long queues at passport control going on holiday and make sure you have the right paper work or you will not be going.


----------



## stuaz

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well have fun in the long queues at passport control going on holiday and make sure you have the right paper work or you will not be going.


I already have to do that when travelling for work or holiday so makes not much difference to me.


----------



## Elles

I see Boris wants to build a bridge from Scotland to Ireland. Is he mad? When will the weather up there be good enough to use it? What happens if the Scots get their independence? Where’s the money tree he’s getting money for that from? Oh ofc. Mansion tax and pensions. The Tories are turning socialist and the left were worried about leaving the Eu?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> I see Boris wants to build a bridge from Scotland to Ireland. Is he mad? When will the weather up there be good enough to use it? What happens if the Scots get their independence? Where's the money tree he's getting money for that from? Oh ofc. Mansion tax and pensions. The Tories are turning socialist and the left were worried about leaving the Eu?


It's been on the cards since 2018 when Boris was Foreign Secretary. Here are a couple of articles from when it was first proposed

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...-plans-between-scotland-and-northern-ireland/

*Aberdeen academic draws up bridge plans between Scotland and Northern Ireland*

https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/tunnel-could-replace-bridge-between-northern-ireland-and-uk/

*A tunnel could replace the proposed bridge between Northern Ireland and mainland UK*


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> We can book a flight to Spain right now for £21


 It's amazing; St Pancras to Kent cost me over £30!


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> It's amazing; St Pancras to Kent cost me over £30!


It really pisses me off. We must have better and cheaper rail travel for all - it's important to saving our planet (HS2 not withstanding of course). I find it too emotive to be honest, my dad was one of many incredibly experienced railway people who lost his job over privatisation. He still has an incredible 'man at seat 61' knowledge of the railway that's now unused. I am not saying that nationalisation is the answer - since BR was always at the behest of any political party's behaviour and interest - but it should not be for the privilege. Short haul flights are the worst for carbon and could easily be avoided.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> It's amazing; St Pancras to Kent cost me over £30!


My granddaughter flew from Budapest to Malmo last October for £15. She makes me laugh because she was really annoyed when she had to pay £35 for her ticket from Budapest to Edinburgh just before the New Year! Outrageously expensive according to her


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> . We must have better and cheaper rail travel for all


My son pays over £8000 a year to commute to work, Kent to London. Actually, that was about four years ago and it's gone up every January since he started; and if he doesn't get on the train by 07.15 (?), he doesn't get a seat! I have a friend in Glasgow who flies to London as it's cheaper than the train.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> My son pays over £8000 a year to commute to work, Kent to London. Actually, that was about four years ago and it's gone up every January since he started; and if he doesn't get on the train by 07.15 (?), he doesn't get a seat! I have a friend in Glasgow who flies to London as it's cheaper than the train.


My granddaughter's studying in Manchester and she was telling me that the train fare from Edinburgh to Manchester cost more than the air ticket from Manchester to Budapest.

Train travel in Hungary is cheap. As an OAP I'm allowed to travel free, but it only costs about £11 including a reserved seat, to travel the 150 miles on the Radoczi Express from my local town to Budapest.


----------



## MollySmith

This wasn't on a bus... 
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...g-detained-by-police-uk-foreign-office-warns/


----------



## MollySmith

Magyarmum said:


> My granddaughter flew from Budapest to Malmo last October for £15. She makes me laugh because she was really annoyed when she had to pay £35 for her ticket from Budapest to Edinburgh just before the New Year! Outrageously expensive according to her





Calvine said:


> My son pays over £8000 a year to commute to work, Kent to London. Actually, that was about four years ago and it's gone up every January since he started; and if he doesn't get on the train by 07.15 (?), he doesn't get a seat! I have a friend in Glasgow who flies to London as it's cheaper than the train.


I gave up commuting to a job I loved in London because the rail fare went up more than my wage increase. No seats and often no trains. It's run utterly inefficiently financially by the companies. For example, drivers only trained on select routes so it means that trains are cancelled rather than other drivers brought in. I know British Rail wasn't perfect largely down to underinvestment by governments and finally by Maggie so she and her cronies could sell it off, but there has been no gain. Railways were the ticket to freedom for so many. I do save up and use them because I won't fly to keep my carbon footprint low, plus I love trains but it's horrendous these days. I miss the compartment carriages where you only had 5 people to cope with not a whole carriage.


----------



## Magyarmum

MollySmith said:


> This wasn't on a bus...
> https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...g-detained-by-police-uk-foreign-office-warns/


It has nothing to do with us leaving the EU, if that's what you were thinking?.

It's because in the UK we don't carry ID's like they do in many other European countries. I remember in Spain in the 80's my teenage son was stopped on his way back home from a disco and asked to produce his passport which he hadn't got. He was sent home and told to return with me and our passports. He was given a ticking off and told to always carry his passport with him!

In Hungary you're required to carry your ID or if not a citizen, your Residence Permit and Passport with you at all times, plus your driving license, insurance and any other documents related to the car you're driving. It's quite normal over here for the police to have road blocks where they check all your papers against the computer records which they can do in the police car. You also take a breathalyser test as there's zero tolerance in Hungary.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> For example, drivers only trained on select routes so it means that trains are cancelled rather than other drivers brought in.


My OH was a Train Driver before BR was privatised, he was trained on most types of engines and signed routes to York, Ely, Crewe, Bristol, Southampton, London and nearly everywhere in between them as most Drivers where in those days. If there was a problem as Driver booked on duty they would ask them to change their booked job and go somewhere else, and they would do that covering each job as Drivers booked on.
Then when it was broke up and sold off it was impossible to do use drives like that any more as the private companies only went over certain routes and the system feel apart.


*edited of spelling*


----------



## Magyarmum

*
The Daily Mash
23 Mars missions, and what else £100 billion could buy you instead of HS2*
11th February 2020









*THE HS2 line linking London and Birmingham, which are already linked, is currently set to cost £100bn. What else could that money buy? *

*23 manned missions to Mars*

The estimated cost of the first four-man Mars lander is £10bn, with each subsequent launch costing £4bn. For the price of a fast train we could put enough Britons on the red planet for a five-a-side football league.

*Enough nukes to take out Russia*

Remember the 80s, when all anyone wanted was to reduce the Soviet Union to a glowing radioactive wasteland where only leather-clad mutants survived? We could achieve that retro dream on the same budget as a train between two cities sensible people avoid.

*Half of Greece*

Buy Greece's national debt and you've pretty much bought Greece. Seafront location, lots of lovely islands, a real sun-trap in the summer months, large goat surplus, comes with complimentary EU membership.

*The Kardashians*

The UK deserves a bit of glamour in its drab life so why not purchase America's first family? Not just the main ones like Kim and Kanye, but the back-ups like Kourtney and Khloe, who could be made to live in places like Doncaster to brighten them up.

*18 tons of pharmaceutical cocaine*

HS2 backers claim it will boost the economy. But not nearly as much as giving every man, woman and child in the country a year's unlimited nose candy to work frantically away in their cubicles like overdosing lab rats. We'd take over the world.

*A Royal yacht*

If the Tories are going to waste this kind of money then they really should waste it on the thing most dear to their hearts, a new Royal yacht. For £1bn they could get one big enough to keep the entire Royal family safe at sea while the rest of us die of the Coronavirus.

*Half of Brexit*

Unfortunately £1bn won't be enough to cover the entire economic cost to the country of Brexit, because it's far more ruinously expensive than that. But it would at least split the bill.


----------



## shadowmare

Magyarmum said:


> *
> The Daily Mash
> 23 Mars missions, and what else £100 billion could buy you instead of HS2*
> 11th February 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *THE HS2 line linking London and Birmingham, which are already linked, is currently set to cost £100bn. What else could that money buy? *
> 
> *23 manned missions to Mars*
> 
> The estimated cost of the first four-man Mars lander is £10bn, with each subsequent launch costing £4bn. For the price of a fast train we could put enough Britons on the red planet for a five-a-side football league.
> 
> *Enough nukes to take out Russia*
> 
> Remember the 80s, when all anyone wanted was to reduce the Soviet Union to a glowing radioactive wasteland where only leather-clad mutants survived? We could achieve that retro dream on the same budget as a train between two cities sensible people avoid.
> 
> *Half of Greece*
> 
> Buy Greece's national debt and you've pretty much bought Greece. Seafront location, lots of lovely islands, a real sun-trap in the summer months, large goat surplus, comes with complimentary EU membership.
> 
> *The Kardashians*
> 
> The UK deserves a bit of glamour in its drab life so why not purchase America's first family? Not just the main ones like Kim and Kanye, but the back-ups like Kourtney and Khloe, who could be made to live in places like Doncaster to brighten them up.
> 
> *18 tons of pharmaceutical cocaine*
> 
> HS2 backers claim it will boost the economy. But not nearly as much as giving every man, woman and child in the country a year's unlimited nose candy to work frantically away in their cubicles like overdosing lab rats. We'd take over the world.
> 
> *A Royal yacht*
> 
> If the Tories are going to waste this kind of money then they really should waste it on the thing most dear to their hearts, a new Royal yacht. For £1bn they could get one big enough to keep the entire Royal family safe at sea while the rest of us die of the Coronavirus.
> 
> *Half of Brexit*
> 
> Unfortunately £1bn won't be enough to cover the entire economic cost to the country of Brexit, because it's far more ruinously expensive than that. But it would at least split the bill.


I mean... we could start with closing down all food banks and actually providing real support to those struggling and having to use them in the first place.


----------



## KittenKong

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/11/business/brexit-frictionless-trade/index.html


----------



## KittenKong

shadowmare said:


> I mean... we could start with closing down all food banks and actually providing real support to those struggling and having to use them in the first place.


We know what their priorities are though don't we? HS2 and stupid ideas for a bridge between Scotland and Ireland in a desperate attempt to bribe the people of those countries to embrace the unelected Westminster government.

And, those flooded for the umpteenth time not getting the funding to build further flood defences.

Now, the government admit frictionless trade with the EU will end next January.

Why do people vote for these idiots? As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't trust this lot of incompetents even if I supported Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> We know what their priorities are though don't we? HS2 and stupid ideas for a bridge between Scotland and Ireland in a desperate attempt to bribe the people of those countries to embrace the unelected Westminster government.
> 
> ]


I think HS2 should go ahead, it is much needed as we need to get people off the roads and flying less. The problem over here is the 10 years debating what to do with it, if this had been in France it would have been up and running by now, so the cost would have been a lot less.

The idea of a bridge over the Irish Sea well that's going to be interesting if it takes as long as HS2.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think HS2 should go ahead, it is much needed as we need to get people off the roads and flying less. The problem over here is the 10 years debating what to do with it, if this had been in France it would have been up and running by now, so the cost would have been a lot less


Not really. All HS2 does is knock a bit of time off one short journey at massive cost. For the same money you could massively improve/extend big chunks of the existing network. HS2 is essentially a political vanity project no-one has the guts to cancel.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Not really. All HS2 does is knock a bit of time off one short journey at massive cost. For the same money you could massively improve/extend big chunks of the existing network. HS2 is essentially a political vanity project no-one has the guts to cancel.


But surely it will free up space on trains that will still run on the normal tracks for people who are just doing shorter journeys and free the tracks for more freight trains.


----------



## stuaz

HS2 is a colossal waste of money. It will serve to few people, and only reduce travel times by such a small fraction but at the same time rip through parts of outstanding natural beauty, destroy centuries old buildings and not to mention the communities it will damage.

I'm all for large infrastructure projects but spend the money upgrading the existing network. We are pitifully behind other countries when it comes to high speed rail and one line between two cities doesn't even make a dent. 

It's so much money, that could be arguebly spent on upgrading stations, track on other parts of the network, converting busy roads to dual carriageways... even provide true high speed broadband infrastructure. It's become I think more of a political thing now, than an economics one.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> My OH was a Train Driver before BR was privatised, he was trained on most types of engines and signed routes to York, Ely, Crewe, Bristol, Southampton, London and nearly everywhere in between them as most Drivers where in those days. If there was a problem as Driver booked on duty they would ask them to change their booked job and go somewhere else, and they would do that covering each job as Drivers booked on.
> Then when it was broke up and sold off it was impossible to do use drives like that any more as the private companies only went over certain routes and the system feel apart.
> 
> 
> *edited of spelling*


on my goodness he may well have known my dad if he was at Ely! My dad managed Cambridge station... until he was replaced by someone who was a graduate from Tesco's graduate training scheme.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think HS2 should go ahead, it is much needed as we need to get people off the roads and flying less. The problem over here is the 10 years debating what to do with it, if this had been in France it would have been up and running by now, so the cost would have been a lot less.
> 
> The idea of a bridge over the Irish Sea well that's going to be interesting if it takes as long as HS2.


I have mixed feelings as I think the rest of the network needs sorting out first, to bring down costs,... everything before it's added to and great swatches of land are being lost but that's true of the current system - we forget that lines seen as beautiful actually tore through countryside before. But god knows when the current system will be fixed. Under the Tories never and no other party apart from Green would have the balls to tackle it.


----------



## Magyarmum




----------



## Pawscrossed

This needed a dust down from page 14! Brexit is still going on no matter what. Alarmingly it is going to cost a lot of money. I voted to leave, the more I find out, the more I regret it.

Figures from the House of Commons Library put the UK's total projected contribution to the EU budget from 1973 to 2020 at £215 billion after adjusting for inflation.

That means the combined cost of Brexit since 2016 is likely to soon eclipse the total cost of the EU's budget payments, which were a central part of the Leave campaign's case for Brexit in the first place.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?r=US&IR=T


----------



## MilleD

Pawscrossed said:


> This needed a dust down from page 14! Brexit is still going on no matter what. Alarmingly it is going to cost a lot of money. I voted to leave, the more I find out, the more I regret it.
> 
> Figures from the House of Commons Library put the UK's total projected contribution to the EU budget from 1973 to 2020 at £215 billion after adjusting for inflation.
> 
> That means the combined cost of Brexit since 2016 is likely to soon eclipse the total cost of the EU's budget payments, which were a central part of the Leave campaign's case for Brexit in the first place.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?r=US&IR=T


I'd love to know how they worked all of that out.


----------



## Pawscrossed

It explains why we're all urged to shop for Britain, and to hell with pandemics.


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> This needed a dust down from page 14! Brexit is still going on no matter what. Alarmingly it is going to cost a lot of money. I voted to leave, the more I find out, the more I regret it.
> 
> Figures from the House of Commons Library put the UK's total projected contribution to the EU budget from 1973 to 2020 at £215 billion after adjusting for inflation.
> 
> That means the combined cost of Brexit since 2016 is likely to soon eclipse the total cost of the EU's budget payments, which were a central part of the Leave campaign's case for Brexit in the first place.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?r=US&IR=T


with all the monies paid out to those who a furloughed, the self employed, the cost of cutting peoples council tax, pausing the payback of any benefit over payments, government food parcels, all those flooding onto UC et al
virtually taking us into bankrupcy, and, definitly into a recession
Can we, as a country, actually afford to continue with Brexit?


----------



## Cully

Do we actually have any choice now? From a clip I saw on TV the other day I don't think the EU will let us U turn. 
Tbh I think we should be given the choice now. The world is a very different place now and no one could have reasonably have predicted a pandemic and it's consequences.


----------



## MilleD

Cully said:


> Do we actually have any choice now? From a clip I saw on TV the other day I don't think the EU will let us U turn.
> Tbh I think we should be given the choice now. The world is a very different place now and no one could have reasonably have predicted a pandemic and it's consequences.


We are already out of the EU. There is no choice.


----------



## cheekyscrip

At least Boris has pandemic to blame... not that his talents in being glib helped much to prepare while there was the time...


----------



## Elles

We’re out of the Eu and it’ll be a Canada plus deal. The details are being worked on now.


----------



## Pawscrossed

I assume everyone is now aware of Christopher Steele and the difference this should make. Russian disinformationers have been spreading fake stories and forged documents across social media web forums, all with the aim of sowing distrust and swaying elections across European & North American nations. It's affected Brexit, presidential elections in France.

If we were mislead then it is not a well informed decision. That vote I mean. I never thought I knew enough but there we have to live with it I suppose. I'm very angry about it today.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomas...ign-is-exposed/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## MilleD

Pawscrossed said:


> I assume everyone is now aware of Christopher Steele and the difference this should make. Russian disinformationers have been spreading fake stories and forged documents across social media web forums, all with the aim of sowing distrust and swaying elections across European & North American nations. It's affected Brexit, presidential elections in France.
> 
> If we were mislead then it is not a well informed decision. That vote I mean. I never thought I knew enough but there we have to live with it I suppose. I'm very angry about it today.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomas...ign-is-exposed/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


Misled how? I can't see anything in that story that would have swayed my decision on Brexit. Unless Angela Merkel really is an alcoholic..


----------



## 5r6ubertbe6y

Cully said:


> Do we actually have any choice now? From a clip I saw on TV the other day I don't think the EU will let us U turn.
> Tbh I think we should be given the choice now. The world is a very different place now and no one could have reasonably have predicted a pandemic and it's consequences.


We began the exit on 31st January.


----------



## MilleD

MissMiloKitty said:


> We began the exit on 31st January.


Not quite. We left on 31st January.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Brexit...Oh no not again.:Arghh


----------



## JANICE199

mrs phas said:


> with all the monies paid out to those who a furloughed, the self employed, the cost of cutting peoples council tax, pausing the payback of any benefit over payments, government food parcels, all those flooding onto UC et al
> virtually taking us into bankrupcy, and, definitly into a recession
> Can we, as a country, actually afford to continue with Brexit?[/QUOT
> 
> *But we will always find money for war and weapons. We aren't as skint as they would have us believe.*


----------



## rona

Today seems to be the day the UK signs their independence away 

I can't believe we haven't been stitched up in some way.

Particularly as it's become very apparent even to those who don't believe in conspiracy theories (me), during the Covid crisis, that those in charge are just a big money club that bleeds the system


----------



## Guest

Let's be fair, Boris promised a deal in the General Election last year and it looks like he may well have achieved that.

No one now's what the detail is yet of the trade deal, it hasn't been uploaded yet so everyone can see it.


----------



## KittenKong

Guess this will be the deal Theresa May originally negotiated with, perhaps more concessions for Northern Ireland that will require border checks between NI and the UK mainland.

The end result was always going to be a deal that pleases absolutely no one, whether a Remainer or Leaver.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Today seems to be the day the UK signs their independence away
> 
> I can't believe we haven't been stitched up in some way.


'Independence' was never a realistic or logical proposition anyway, just a jingoistic rallying cry. As a standalone nation we have far less influence than the real world powers, plus we're reliant on imports as a nation for foor and resources.

So the reality of Brexit has always been we're going to be cap in hand to other nations in order to survive, and the only real benefits will be to those at the top of the UK economic pile.


----------



## Guest

I am happy that a trade deal worth £660bn has been done with the EU and the UK can now move away from Brexit and onto something else.


----------



## MollySmith

rawpawsrus said:


> I am happy that a trade deal worth £660bn has been done with the EU and the UK can now move away from Brexit and onto something else.


Impossible, the aftermath will be with us for years.


----------



## kimthecat

Its the same deal as TMs?


----------



## Guest

MollySmith said:


> Impossible, the aftermath will be with us for years.


I am only quoting the figure in the press which is £660bn and VDL I do believe mentioned this figure in the EU press conference.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Its the same deal as TMs?


Have you seen the deal I haven't seen it yet? It isn't available to view yet.


----------



## kimthecat

rawpawsrus said:


> Have you seen the deal I haven't seen it yet? It isn't available to view yet.


No. That's why was asking . People are saying its the same deal .


----------



## MollySmith

rawpawsrus said:


> I am only quoting the figure in the press which is £660bn and VDL I do believe mentioned this figure in the EU press conference.


I wasn't commenting on the figures- which doesn't include the cost of leaving and therefore spun.

The loss of Erasmus is awful. Incredibly short sighted.


----------



## Guest

MollySmith said:


> I wasn't commenting on the figures- which doesn't include the cost of leaving and therefore spun.
> 
> The loss of Erasmus is awful. Incredibly short sighted.


I am just glad it is all over and the UK now can move on. That's my view if it comes across short sighted so what as alot of people are breathing a sigh of relief that it is over and their ear holes get a rest from listening to it all on TV.


----------



## MollySmith

rawpawsrus said:


> I am just glad it is all over and the UK now can move on. That's my view if it comes across short sighted so what as alot of people are breathing a sigh of relief that it is over and their ear holes get a rest from listening to it all on TV.


I don't share the view it's over, we will be paying a price for a long time but I'm of a weary mindset. I didn't vote for it which I've been open about, and my own opinion is as it was from the start, that it's been a terrible car crash driven by lies and bribery. Moaning and ranting on PF about it for 4 years did no good apart from make me angry and it sucks to see that arse in charge think he's some sort of hero. We need to keep talking about it and business owners like me, lecturers like me will be talking about it. Lucky for the rare few who aren't but we all are in some ways.

But.... it's Xmas eve, Worzel is on the telly. It's what it is.


----------



## Elles

So Boris and Von Der Leyen thrashed out a deal overnight and presented it in a 2000 page legal document. The ghost writers must have been on overtime. Maybe G R R Martin could learn a thing or two and finish the book he’s been writing for nigh on 20 years .


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm not commenting as it's Christmas!


----------



## kimthecat

Its caused a lot of divides and members leaving . Its good to see @KittenKong back.


----------



## Calvine

rawpawsrus said:


> I am just glad it is all over and the UK now can move on. That's my view if it comes across short sighted so what as alot of people are breathing a sigh of relief that it is over and their ear holes get a rest from listening to it all on TV.


Whatever deal it is, there is one thing in its favour: it knocked Covid off the headlines for a day or two.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Its good to see @KittenKong back.


Thank you! @kimthecat !

I've heard the deal will be up for review in 2024 which could well mean no deal or closer interaction, depending what's decided. So it's far from over.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Thank you! @kimthecat !
> 
> I've heard the deal will be up for* review in 2024* which could well mean no deal or closer interaction, depending what's decided. So it's far from over.


I thought that was just for control of our fishing rights.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> I thought that was just for control of our fishing rights.


The General Election is what @KittenKong is talking about I think. It won't be up for review it's just Starmer is looking at enhancing it by trying to negotiate new bits to add onto it, but this depends on Labour winning the General Election in 2024.

The fishing at the moment is up for review in 5 and a half years time as this is the fishing transition period for the EU. The fishing will then be reviewed every year after the transition period or this is what the plan is from what I understand from what has been said and is in the document that has been released (not the trade deal).


----------



## Happy Paws2

rawpawsrus said:


> The General Election is what @KittenKong is talking about I think. It won't be up for review it's just Starmer is looking at enhancing it by trying to negotiate new bits to add onto it, but this depends on Labour winning the General Election in 2024.
> 
> The fishing at the moment is up for review in 5 and a half years time as this is the fishing transition period for the EU. The fishing will then be reviewed every year after the transition period or this is what the plan is.


Sorry I miss read part of the thread


----------



## MollySmith

MollySmith said:


> I don't share the view it's over, we will be paying a price for a long time but I'm of a weary mindset. I didn't vote for it which I've been open about, and my own opinion is as it was from the start, that it's been a terrible car crash driven by lies and bribery. Moaning and ranting on PF about it for 4 years did no good apart from make me angry and it sucks to see that arse in charge think he's some sort of hero. We need to keep talking about it and business owners like me, lecturers like me will be talking about it. Lucky for the rare few who aren't but we all are in some ways.
> 
> But.... it's Xmas eve, Worzel is on the telly. It's what it is.


but maybe not keep talking on here!



Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm not commenting as it's Christmas!


good idea!



kimthecat said:


> Its caused a lot of divides and members leaving . Its good to see @KittenKong back.


yes agree, it's been a difficult thread, a few made me take a break too.


----------



## Guest

There seems to be a clause in the small print stating that things will be reviewed in 4 years time, which @KittenKong mentioned and this clause also mentions (according to the media) the deal can be axed. It seems the EU got what they wanted with few compromises to the UK according to certain media outlets. The clause seems to correspond with the next general election in the UK if this is the case. It's hard to actually understand the facts when there is no sight of the actual deal at the moment to read and refer to. Media speculation? Who knows? The only people that see the deal at the moment are the EU Ambassadors.


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> Today seems to be the day the UK signs their independence away
> 
> I can't believe we haven't been stitched up in some way.
> 
> Particularly as it's become very apparent even to those who don't believe in conspiracy theories (me), during the Covid crisis, that those in charge are just a big money club that bleeds the system


Well, the guys who voted for it kept saying they're knew what you voted for, so here you are....


----------



## Bisbow

emmaviolet said:


> Well, the guys who voted for it kept saying they're knew what you voted for, so here you are....


Being bitter bout it won't help you or anyone else

It's done


----------



## Blackadder

emmaviolet said:


> Well, the guys who voted for it kept saying they're knew what you voted for, so here you are....


So that will be why I didn't vote. I (along with many others I suspect) didn't have a clue whether it was good or bad so I kept out of it!

I can't say that I'm too interested now to be honest....Politics?? Meh!


----------



## Guest

The UK left the EU on the 31st January 2020, we are already out of the EU but have been in a transition period since then until 11pm on the 31st December 2020 (UK time). The deal on the table is the only deal on offer. The SNP are already indicating they want no deal as they have said they are voting against this deal. Any party that votes against this deal on the 30th December 2020 or if the House of Lords reject it they are voting for no deal as there is no other deal on offer.

I don't know if people are aware you can still travel to the rest of Europe for up to 90 days in any 180 day period for holidays. This is the same rules as EU member states have. You can also still take your pets to other European countries, you need to get an animal health certificate (AHC) instead of a pet passport before you travel it says so here:- https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-travel-to-europe-from-1-january-2021

This deal is better than no deal.


----------



## rona

emmaviolet said:


> Well, the guys who voted for it kept saying they're knew what you voted for, so here you are....


I knew what I voted for.....................


----------



## emmaviolet

rona said:


> I knew what I voted for.....................


Did you vote Brexit. If you did your previous post would contradict that. This is what we've got and it's not what you want.....


----------



## emmaviolet

Blackadder said:


> So that will be why I didn't vote. I (along with many others I suspect) didn't have a clue whether it was good or bad so I kept out of it!
> 
> I can't say that I'm too interested now to be honest....Politics?? Meh!


Politics isn't 'meh' it's literally in every single aspect of your life.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> Being bitter bout it won't help you or anyone else
> 
> It's done


I'm not bitter about it, I actually find it pretty funny. We was told so often that leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for, it just doesn't appear that way when they all seem to be complaining about it or unsatisfied with it.


----------



## HarlequinCat

emmaviolet said:


> I'm not bitter about it, I actually find it pretty funny. We was told so often that leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for, it just doesn't appear that way when they all seem to be complaining about it or unsatisfied with it.


To be honest of what I've seen so far many leavers are happy with the deal. Theres always going to be one thing or another someone isn't going to be happy about. 
Its too early to say what will happen, but better to be optimistic than pessimistic about it. Its what we have now


----------



## kimthecat

emmaviolet said:


> I'm not bitter about it, I actually find it pretty funny. We was told so often that leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for, it just doesn't appear that way when they all seem to be complaining about it or unsatisfied with it.


Are they ? Ive not noticed that though Ive noticed the remainers still are unhappy but then I only do twitter and this forum . The fishermen are one group that aren't happy though , they feel they were stitched up.


----------



## Guest

We are all going to have to make do with this deal if the Politicians and Lords vote for it on the 30th December 2020 otherwise we'll all have to live with no deal. I notice some people aren't happy but this is all we have and we all have to now live with it regardless of how people voted if people voted at all.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> The loss of Erasmus is awful. Incredibly short sighted.


Boris said it was going to be replaced with something else . goodness knows what that is!


----------



## Guest

Jersey and Guernsey crown dependencies of the UK have approved the trade deal.


----------



## emmaviolet

rawpawsrus said:


> We are all going to have to make do with this deal if the Politicians and Lords vote for it on the 30th December 2020 otherwise we'll all have to live with no deal. I notice some people aren't happy but this is all we have and we all have to now live with it regardless of how people voted if people voted at all.


I'm not complaining, frankly, I don't care about it any more. It's now looking very likely that I'll be leaving the UK in the very near future.

But this mentality of putting up with it and getting on and making the beat of it despite it being worse for the UK doesn't really help because it's just letting people off the hook for their sheer lies.

Look at this from vote leave.....
People forgetting the lies and going along with this new spin is making things a lot harder.


----------



## emmaviolet

kimthecat said:


> Are they ? Ive not noticed that though Ive noticed the remainers still are unhappy but then I only do twitter and this forum . The fishermen are one group that aren't happy though , they feel they were stitched up.


I'm only going on the above post.

Honestly, I haven't been reading about it or read the agreement or even been watching the news. I've been busy with Christmas and enjoying myself. The post came up as an alert when I came on to check my thread about Alfie and that's when I saw it.
I won't be reading it, I'm sure that's what they wanted in announcing it on Christmas Eve, people wanted to forget that over the holidays, even political journalists haven't yet read it.

At this stage I really just don't care about it. I'll be fine and hopefully away from it all. I do feel sorry for those who voted for it and have made themselves worse off, but I no longer have the emotional energy for it. If they were turkeys voting for Christmas, there's nothing my concern can do for them.


----------



## O2.0

emmaviolet said:


> Politics isn't 'meh' it's literally in every single aspect of your life.


I don't know that I agree with this. Obviously this is not Brexit related, just a general musings on this interesting take on politics.

I've lived under a few different types of governments from rather oppressive, to the democratic US, and here I've lived under both republican and democratic controlled governments. Life is essentially the same no matter what. The little people are largely overlooked, the rich take care of themselves, but to avoid sounding too cynical, most of us really do get on with our lives. We love our families, take care of our neighbors and friends, the good folks are still good folks, the selfish continue to be selfish, and in the end humanity trudges on.

Made me think of this quote which I quite like by Don Freeman who wrote the classic children's book Corduroy: 
"We need to stop looking to politicians to make our world better. Politicians don't make the world a better place. Everything that's ever made the world a better place has come from inventors, engineers, scientists, teachers, artists, builders, philosophers, healers, and people that choose love over hate."


----------



## Guest

emmaviolet said:


> I'm only going on the above post.
> 
> Honestly, I haven't been reading about it or read the agreement or even been watching the news. I've been busy with Christmas and enjoying myself. The post came up as an alert when I came on to check my thread about Alfie and that's when I saw it.
> I won't be reading it, I'm sure that's what they wanted in announcing it on Christmas Eve, people wanted to forget that over the holidays, even political journalists haven't yet read it.
> 
> At this stage I really just don't care about it. I'll be fine and hopefully away from it all. I do feel sorry for those who voted for it and have made themselves worse off, but I no longer have the emotional energy for it. If they were turkeys voting for Christmas, there's nothing my concern can do for them.


Life is what we make it. We all have different destinies in life and all have different futures. I agree they could have chosen a different time of year to announce the trade deal but when is the right time? Good luck with your future and may you find happiness in whatever you do.


----------



## emmaviolet

rawpawsrus said:


> Life is what we make it. We all have different destinies in life and all have different futures. I agree they could have chosen a different time of year to announce the trade deal but when is the right time? Good luck with your future and may you find happiness in whatever you do.


Well, everybody on Christmas eve is never going to dedicate any real amount of time in scrutinising any deal, as I said people who are paid for reporting on politics and live and breathe it (Lewis Goodall for one) haven't even started to read it because it's Christmas, the one time of year people take off to sit back and enjoy. It's obvious why it was released then.

But yes, it's what you make it, I cannot help all those who will be worse off so I have to just leave it. It's over, people fell for it, what can you do? I'm moving forwards and away from it. I find it all so toxic, it's based on toxicity, it bred it and thrives in it. I do hope the liars do get their comeuppance though. But that'll be down the line.

I also wish you luck in the future.


----------



## emmaviolet

O2.0 said:


> I don't know that I agree with this. Obviously this is not Brexit related, just a general musings on this interesting take on politics.
> 
> I've lived under a few different types of governments from rather oppressive, to the democratic US, and here I've lived under both republican and democratic controlled governments. Life is essentially the same no matter what. The little people are largely overlooked, the rich take care of themselves, but to avoid sounding too cynical, most of us really do get on with our lives. We love our families, take care of our neighbors and friends, the good folks are still good folks, the selfish continue to be selfish, and in the end humanity trudges on.
> 
> Made me think of this quote which I quite like by Don Freeman who wrote the classic children's book Corduroy:
> "We need to stop looking to politicians to make our world better. Politicians don't make the world a better place. Everything that's ever made the world a better place has come from inventors, engineers, scientists, teachers, artists, builders, philosophers, healers, and people that choose love over hate."


It's true they do ignore the small people, but that's deliberate and a way to make people disengage in politics. If they were engaged they would realise they outnumber the top percentages by a landslide and could actually have a say, but they're discouraged and disenfranchised to turn away from politics. 
All the small things in life, what things cost, if you or your children will be able to afford to buy your own house, healthcare, even things like pesticides that we'll ingest or not are down to politics. It's woven into every small thing.


----------



## O2.0

emmaviolet said:


> It's true they do ignore the small people, but that's deliberate and a way to make people disengage in politics. If they were engaged they would realise they outnumber the top percentages by a landslide and could actually have a say, but they're discouraged and disenfranchised to turn away from politics.
> All the small things in life, what things cost, if you or your children will be able to afford to buy your own house, healthcare, even things like pesticides that we'll ingest or not are down to politics. It's woven into every small thing.


Well maybe I'm naive, or stupid, but in the things that matter to me, I do have a say.

Here in the US we have had the most engaged election ever. It took a wannabe despot to achieve that. There's some uncomfortable food for thought....


----------



## kimthecat

rawpawsrus said:


> Life is what we make it. We all have different destinies in life and all have different futures..


Life's a bitch and then you die . That's what we used to say in the 80s. Now I'm a lot older I tend to think wait and see. I'm not wasting my time worrying. I'll deal with it when it happens.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just think about all those millions of pounds the NHS is going to that BJ promised when we left.


----------



## Bisbow

[QUOTE="emmaviolet, post: 1065711284, member: 1304329"

But yes, it's what you make it, I cannot help all those who will be worse off so I have to just leave it. It's over, people fell for it, what can you do?

I also wish you luck in the future.[/QUOTE]

For someone who says they are not bitter you don't give that impression in your posts

You sound like a petulant child who has been denied a treat
please stop treating everyone who voted leave as complete idiots

I may not be the brightest person on Earth bur neither an I the biggest idiot


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> Are they ? Ive not noticed that though Ive noticed the remainers still are unhappy but then I only do twitter and this forum . The fishermen are one group that aren't happy though , they feel they were stitched up.


The trouble is, the industry is such a tiny proportion of the economy that it wasn't worth knackering a deal because of an ideological viewpoint of retaining our own fishing grounds.

Particularly when those fisherman sell a large chunk of our catch to the continent.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Oh Boy... the fun is just about to start....


----------



## Calvine

Replacement for Erasmus scheme to begin next September, ministers pledge, but with less funding | The Independent

For anyone concerned about the Erasmus scheme being scrapped ^^^^^^


----------



## Calvine

Bisbow said:


> please stop treating everyone who voted leave as complete idiots


I second that . . . but it's been going on for so long now that it's now water off a duck's back.


----------



## MollySmith

emmaviolet said:


> It's true they do ignore the small people, but that's deliberate and a way to make people disengage in politics. If they were engaged they would realise they outnumber the top percentages by a landslide and could actually have a say, but they're discouraged and disenfranchised to turn away from politics.
> All the small things in life, what things cost, if you or your children will be able to afford to buy your own house, healthcare, even things like pesticides that we'll ingest or not are down to politics. It's woven into every small thing.





O2.0 said:


> Well maybe I'm naive, or stupid, but in the things that matter to me, I do have a say.
> 
> Here in the US we have had the most engaged election ever. It took a wannabe despot to achieve that. There's some uncomfortable food for thought....


I think you both make very valid points.

There was something I read on Twitter which I paraphrase as feeling sore for anyone who voted leave and are horrified by what they have now. And I agree, when I think back to 4-5 years ago and now, it's pretty grim in as much as I recall from the manifestos. There should never be any shame in saying it wasn't what I thought, nobody has a crystal ball and I think there's strength and power to be gained from disillusioned leaver voters and remain voters if we can find a middle ground and be more forgiving.

I feel we have more depths to sink to before we can rise up. I don't think Johnson is a despot but as a collective his cabinet are terrifying and it's hard to fathom how this country has become so divided - or maybe not! Either way, I don't feel it's solved on a Pet Forum - for me - but through voting, petitioning, reading, listening and engaging with my MP and other bodies, so I'm stepping away from this thread.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> T*he fishermen are one group that aren't happy though *, they feel they were stitched up.


Most of them wanted to leave so it's their own fault if it's backfired on them, I don't feel sorry for them.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> it's hard to fathom how this country has become so divided


The EU. It's why there's so much corruption too


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> The EU. It's why there's so much corruption too


I think if you say tories and corruption an the same sentence it will add up to corruption.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think if you say tories and corruption an the same sentence it will add up to corruption.


How about Tony Blair?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> How about Tony Blair?


Just one against so many.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just one against so many.


That's how I feel


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> I think you both make very valid points.
> 
> There was something I read on Twitter which I paraphrase as feeling sore for anyone who voted leave and are horrified by what they have now. And I agree, when I think back to 4-5 years ago and now, it's pretty grim in as much as I recall from the manifestos. There should never be any shame in saying it wasn't what I thought, nobody has a crystal ball and I think there's strength and power to be gained from disillusioned leaver voters and remain voters if we can find a middle ground and be more forgiving.
> 
> I feel we have more depths to sink to before we can rise up. I don't think Johnson is a despot but as a collective his cabinet are terrifying and it's hard to fathom how this country has become so divided - or maybe not! Either way, I don't feel it's solved on a Pet Forum - for me - but through voting, petitioning, reading, listening and engaging with my MP and other bodies, so I'm stepping away from this thread.


Honestly if I found the people running the government of the country I lived in terrifying, I'd leave.

There are far far worse governments than the one in the UK.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> The EU. It's why there's so much corruption too


We beg to differ! Anyway as I said I'm not spending hours on this forum again on this topic.


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> Honestly if I found the people running the government of the country I lived in terrifying, I'd leave.
> 
> There are far far worse governments than the one in the UK.


If only. Like many others I have commitments and nobody is in power forever.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> If only. Like many others I have commitments and nobody is in power forever.


And therein lies the reason why this government is not terrifying.


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> How about Tony Blair?


Well, if we're being honest he was basically a Tory in a red tie anyway


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> How about Tony Blair?


 How about him being in line to receive a knighthood!! (Allegedly.)


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> And therein lies the reason why this government is not terrifying.


It is for many who are facing poverty, homelessness. Depends on how one likes their horror I guess.

Touché etc


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> How about him being in line to receive a knighthood!! (Allegedly.)


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Oh Boy... the fun is just about to start....


:Hilarious mamma mia , here we go again. !


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> How about him being in line to receive a knighthood!! (Allegedly.)


:Banghead :Banghead :Banghead


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious mamma mia , here we go again. !


I really don't care anymore, I'm just going to watch the fun as it's unfolds over the next few weeks.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I really don't care anymore, I'm just going to watch the fun as it's unfolds over the next few weeks.


I think most of us here think that.


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> It is for many who are facing poverty, homelessness. Depends on how one likes their horror I guess.
> 
> Touché etc


What does the touche mean?

It's like everything we do is controlled by people who are homeless. Do you have any idea how many people are assisted to get out of homelessness and they turn it down? It's a been a huge issue in the town I live. People trying so hard to help but being turned down.

Poverty. People suffering from that have the chance to vote in different government as you said. Then things can change.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Well, if we're being honest he was basically a Tory in a red tie anyway


An awful lot of labour supporters voted for him.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> An awful lot of labour supporters voted for him.


Doesn't necessarily mean they liked him. Just that they liked him better than John Major and the other options for Labour leadership.

If memory serves, a popular slogan of the time was "We're voting Labour - but we don't trust Blair"


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> Doesn't necessarily mean they liked him. Just that they liked him better than John Major and the other options for Labour leadership.
> 
> *If memory serves, a popular slogan of the time was "We're voting Labour - but we don't trust Blair"*


That's a new one on me.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's a new one on me.


I don't remember that either, I thought he was extremely popular with Labour supporters


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> What does the touche mean?
> 
> It's like everything we do is controlled by people who are homeless. Do you have any idea how many people are assisted to get out of homelessness and they turn it down? It's a been a huge issue in the town I live. People trying so hard to help but being turned down.
> 
> Poverty. People suffering from that have the chance to vote in different government as you said. Then things can change.


Touché is an acknowledgment of a hit. You took my post, pulled it apart and I'm acknowledging that.

I'm not going to digress too much because this is the Brexit thread and as I've already said, not debating in a pet forum when I could be doing something else. I'm very unlikely to reply on this thread again.

Although I've donated business profits to Big Issue, each person who is homeless may have many reasons for refusing help and I'm nowhere near an expert. Shelter, St Mungos, Jimmy's Nigthshelter, Crisis and the Big Issue are sources of first hand accounts, data and factual information over conjecture.

Some reasons may include due to pets not being accepted, their current community, not feeling safe in a pandemic due to overcrowding - both happened to two vendors I know who are homeless. It can be fear, a way of life albeit not of their choosing. Lots of complex reasons that, because many of us are privileged not to experience it, may not understand but do deserve to be listened to and heard.


----------



## Guest

I see Northern Ireland (DUP and Sinn Fein) has joined the SNP and are refusing to vote for the deal so they will be voting for no deal then the two countries that was vocal about having a deal during the negotiations.

Labour have said the deal is a platform to build on if they win the 2024 elections.


----------



## kimthecat

rawpawsrus said:


> I see Northern Ireland (DUP and Sinn Fein) has joined the SNP and are refusing to vote for the deal so they will be voting for no deal then the two countries that was vocal about having a deal during the negotiations.
> 
> Labour have said the deal is a platform to build on if they win the 2024 elections.


Bit of a volte face from Nicola


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Touché is an acknowledgment of a hit. You took my post, pulled it apart and I'm acknowledging that.
> 
> I'm not going to digress too much because this is the Brexit thread and as I've already said, not debating in a pet forum when I could be doing something else. I'm very unlikely to reply on this thread again.
> 
> Although I've donated business profits to Big Issue, each person who is homeless may have many reasons for refusing help and I'm nowhere near an expert. Shelter, St Mungos, Jimmy's Nigthshelter, Crisis and the Big Issue are sources of first hand accounts, data and factual information over conjecture.
> 
> Some reasons may include due to pets not being accepted, their current community, not feeling safe in a pandemic due to overcrowding - both happened to two vendors I know who are homeless. It can be fear, a way of life albeit not of their choosing. Lots of complex reasons that, because many of us are privileged not to experience it, may not understand but do deserve to be listened to and heard.


You keep saying you are unlikely to reply. A pet forum being a waste of time in that regard right? Then why keep replying?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I don't remember that either, I thought he was extremely popular with Labour supporters


I did as well, that's why at the time I voted for him.


----------



## emmaviolet

Bisbow said:


> [QUOTE="emmaviolet, post: 1065711284, member: 1304329"
> 
> But yes, it's what you make it, I cannot help all those who will be worse off so I have to just leave it. It's over, people fell for it, what can you do?
> 
> I also wish you luck in the future.


For someone who says they are not bitter you don't give that impression in your posts

You sound like a petulant child who has been denied a treat
please stop treating everyone who voted leave as complete idiots

I may not be the brightest person on Earth bur neither an I the biggest idiot[/QUOTE]

I genuinely not anymore. I was, but thankfully, I know I'll be fine and it really won't affect me at all.

And people are denied a treat, there are many aspects and benefits that we had that have long been lost now, including Erasmus.

I understand you may not like it, but it was a scam and people fell for it, a poster said as much in the initial post I responded to. They've been duped, some are starting to admit it.


----------



## Bisbow

I and thousands others, no , millions of other people do not believe it was a scam
The remainers tried to scare us into believing it and failed

I am proud that the British people can now hold their heads up and no longer have to cow-tow to the faceless wonders in Brussels


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Doesn't necessarily mean they liked him. Just that they liked him better than John Major and the other options for Labour leadership.
> 
> If memory serves, a popular slogan of the time was "We're voting Labour - but we don't trust Blair"


But he got Labour into power for 13 years until Cameron and Tories won in 2010, Labour have failed to oust the Tories since because of their choices of Leader. I dont like him by the way.


----------



## Guest

Why do people insult or throw insulting remarks at each other over the referendum? This is why I will be glad when the UK leaves with or without a trade deal on the 31st December 2020? Hopefully the news will go onto other things?

Yes it can still go either way, this deal can be rejected by the Houses of Commons and the House of Lords meaning the UK can still leave with no deal. There seems to be quite a few MP's objecting to the deal and the remainer Lords don't seem happy either. Willbe an interesting day tomorrow.


----------



## kimthecat

rawpawsrus said:


> I see Northern Ireland (DUP and Sinn Fein) has joined the SNP and are refusing to vote for the deal so they will be voting for no deal then the two countries that was vocal about having a deal during the negotiations.
> 
> Labour have said the deal is a platform to build on if they win the 2024 elections.


Looks like some 20 Labour Mps will ignore Starmer and vote against it.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> But he got Labour into power for 13 years until Cameron and Tories won in 2010, Labour have failed to oust the Tories since because of their choices of Leader. I dont like him by the way.


I am.not keen on Starmer and it looks like he has his hands full tomorrow with a number of his own MP's rebelling against him. There maybe a leadership challenge again in the Labour party before long.


----------



## kimthecat

@rawpawsrus We posted at the same time.  I feel like this :Banghead


----------



## MilleD

I don't understand any remainer MPs that vote for no deal. Surely any deal will be closer to what we had with the EU than no deal.


----------



## Guest

So far SNP, Lib Dems, DUP, some Labour MP's and I do believe some Tory MP's are voting against the deal which means they will be voting for no deal as there is no other deal on offer than the current deal being voted on.


----------



## KittenKong

.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> .
> View attachment 458992


NowTV belongs to Sky and is a UK company.

Now TV is a subscription-based TV service owned by Sky, and offers contract-free access to Sky's premium channels, such as sports, movies and entertainment.

Sky UK Limited is a British broadcaster and telecommunications company that provides television and broadband Internet services, fixed line and mobile telephone services to consumers and businesses in the United Kingdom.

As far as I was aware you cannot use your NowTV box abroad anyway.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> .
> View attachment 458992


Is this fake as I have not had this in my NowTV account?


----------



## kimthecat

When is the vote for the Brexit deal ? I hear Dianne Abbot is voting against it now.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> When is the vote for the Brexit deal ?


2:30pm it is scheduled in I do believe then Matt Hancock at 3pm about Covid.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> When is the vote for the Brexit deal


House of Commons are due to vote at 2:30pm and then at 3pm the Lord's begin debating it and then the Lord's vote on it as late as 11pm.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Guide


----------



## kimthecat

@rawpawsrus Thanks.


----------



## Guest

Rachel Reeves Shadow Chancellor Of The Duchy of Lancaster is closing the debate which is due to end at 2:20pm.

Michael Gove is now closing the debate.


----------



## Guest

EU (Future Relationship) Bill
Ayes:- 521
Noes:- 73
Majority 448

MPs have accepted bill at second reading.

The Committee stage has just been passed as well.

They have just divided to vote on the bill to be read.a 3rd time. If the 3rd reading vote passes then it moves on to the House of Lords. The bill cannot be amended as it is way passed that.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> I think you both make very valid points.
> 
> There was something I read on Twitter which I paraphrase as feeling sore for anyone who voted leave and are horrified by what they have now. And I agree, when I think back to 4-5 years ago and now, it's pretty grim in as much as I recall from the manifestos. There should never be any shame in saying it wasn't what I thought, nobody has a crystal ball and I think there's strength and power to be gained from disillusioned leaver voters and remain voters if we can find a middle ground and be more forgiving.
> 
> I feel we have more depths to sink to before we can rise up. I don't think Johnson is a despot but as a collective his cabinet are terrifying and it's hard to fathom how this country has become so divided - or maybe not! Either way, I don't feel it's solved on a Pet Forum - for me - but through voting, petitioning, reading, listening and engaging with my MP and other bodies, so I'm stepping away from this thread.


I'm one of those leavers who regret. I'll fess up. It wasn't what I thought but I think we've gone past the point of arguing remain even if I didn't buy it at the time. I also don't feel any relief that we have a deal over no deal at all - it's way to removed from the information before the vote, I get that people will say the Eu are to blame too but I'm sore over false promises in the first place and far from forgiving.

Dunno about terrible - out of control thanks to a majority which is scary too.


----------



## KittenKong

rawpawsrus said:


> Is this fake as I have not had this in my NowTV account?


No. I've looked it up myself.
https://help.nowtv.com/article/can-i-watch-now-tv-abroad



kimthecat said:


> When is the vote for the Brexit deal ? I hear Dianne Abbot is voting against it now.


Oh, the hypocrisy! More to get back at Starmer than anything else.
What was more damaging was Corbyn whipping his MPs into voting for A50 which Ms.,"I'm a Socialist but sent my kids to private school", Abbott supported.


----------



## KittenKong

Pawscrossed said:


> I'm one of those leavers who regret. I'll fess up. It wasn't what I thought but I think we've gone past the point of arguing remain even if I didn't buy it at the time. I also don't feel any relief that we have a deal over no deal at all - it's way to removed from the information before the vote, I get that people will say the Eu are to blame too but I'm sore over false promises in the first place and far from forgiving.
> 
> Dunno about terrible - out of control thanks to a majority which is scary too.


I don't know how anyone has the nerve to blame the EU in any way as, after all it was the UK government that unilaterally decided to leave. I wouldn't expect my former employer to keep paying my wages on voluntary leaving, nor the RAC for not attending to my broken down car after cancelling my breakdown cover with them.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> No. I've looked it up myself.
> https://help.nowtv.com/article/can-i-watch-now-tv-abroad


 To be honest I didn't think you could view NowTV when abroad anyway. I went on holiday last year and couldn't view it on the app.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Oh, the hypocrisy! More to get back at Starmer than anything else.
> What was more damaging was Corbyn whipping his MPs into voting for A50 which Ms.,"I'm a Socialist but sent my kids to private school", Abbott supported.


Starmer done the right thing unless you wanted no deal as there is only a binary choice on offer, this deal or no deal. This deal is better than no deal by far. Those 73 that voted against the deal voted for no deal to happen.


----------



## Guest

The deal has been signed by Boris. So I guess what is going on at the moment with the Lord's having their debate over the deal is just going through the motions to make the deal law.



















https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-m...al-ahead-of-end-of-transition-period-12175646

I for one will be glad when this is all over in my opinion (meaning the news won't be going on about it all the time) as life needs to move on.


----------



## kimthecat

Theresa may gives Boris a pasting.

Theresa May has told the House of Commons that her trade deal with the EU was better than the one eventually struck by Boris Johnson.

The former prime minister said that she would vote later today in favour of the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement reached by her successor on Christmas Eve, but told MPs that she had offered them a "better deal" in 2019.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...tter-than-boris-johnson-e2-80-99s/ar-BB1clyjX


----------



## cheekyscrip

Gibraltar still has no deal , so we don’t know where we are...
My dog is sick, wonder how I get him to the check up with his vet in Spain?
Our vet was telling us he just cannot believe how actually people could trust Johnson and his ilk?
No, we don’t understand either.
New passport needed for Scrip and I need new ID to cross...
Last time Guardia Civil let us cross but warned us that as from the 1st Jan it will be no more...

Yes, this deal is worse than May Deal which was worse than Remain but rejoice!
The ERG and other fat cats will get away with close scrutiny of their taxes!
This what really Brexit was about, the rest was just the package.

Time will tell ... but the real winners in this are Russia and China.
Not Britain and not EU.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Theresa may gives Boris a pasting.
> 
> Theresa May has told the House of Commons that her trade deal with the EU was better than the one eventually struck by Boris Johnson.
> 
> The former prime minister said that she would vote later today in favour of the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement reached by her successor on Christmas Eve, but told MPs that she had offered them a "better deal" in 2019.


:Hilarious Arguably, her deal would have been worse as the Northern Ireland situation was never resolved. A hard border between NI and the Republic would have been inevitable.

If people think this is over, they are very much mistaken. Who's to say Johnson will comply with the agreement knowing his track record?


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> If people think this is over, they are very much mistaken. Who's to say Johnson will comply with the agreement knowing his track record?


Yes............ the next few months are going to be very interesting


----------



## MilleD

KittenKong said:


> If people think this is over, they are very much mistaken. Who's to say Johnson will comply with the agreement knowing his track record?


Why would he set something up to not comply with it?

Would have just gone for no deal if that was the case.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Why would he set something up to not comply with it?
> 
> Would have just gone for no deal if that was the case.


Well his been lying though his teeth for over four years why would he be any different now. I'll never trust a word he says.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well his been lying though his teeth for over four years why would he be any different now. I'll never trust a word he says.


I think we all know your thoughts on him.

Personally, I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes for love nor money with everything this year has thrown at the government.


----------



## Bisbow

MilleD said:


> I think we all know your thoughts on him.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes for love nor money with everything this year has thrown at the government.


Completely agree
He didn't sign up for all this when he became PM
Nobody knew about the virus then he only had Brexit to worry about

Just who do you think would have been a better bet then


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> I think we all know your thoughts on him.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes for love nor money with everything this year has thrown at the government.


That's what happens when you lie and get vote in, you pay the price.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's what happens when you lie and get vote in, you pay the price.


Bit harsh. He didn't know the virus was coming.

Each to their own, I know for sure I wouldn't have wanted Labour in power in the last year. Too much infighting to concentrate on the issues.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's what happens when you lie and get vote in, you pay the price.


You still have not said who would have been a better person in his place


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> You still have not said who would have been a better person in his place


Maybe No 10's cat.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe No 10's cat.


Probably would have done better than if we'd had Corbyn


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's what happens when you lie and get vote in, you pay the price.


Sorry but


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> Maybe No 10's cat.


So basically you're saying nobody could have done better


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Probably would have done better than if we'd had Corbyn


A very common viewpoint. I'm no fan of him myself.

But I don't think he would have focused on giving multi million contracts out to friends, for example the Track and Trace that didn't work properly, nor to a ferry firm without ferries.

Not forgetting the proposed satellite replacement to Galileo that also costed the taxpayer millions. That fell through....

Still, he wasn't going to get elected so we'll never know....


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar still has no deal , so we don't know where we are...
> My dog is sick, wonder how I get him to the check up with his vet in Spain?
> Our vet was telling us he just cannot believe how actually people could trust Johnson and his ilk?
> No, we don't understand either.
> New passport needed for Scrip and I need new ID to cross...
> Last time Guardia Civil let us cross but warned us that as from the 1st Jan it will be no more...


Seems as if this has been sorted today. Gibraltar is to stay in the Schengen Area


----------



## Elles

rona said:


> Seems as if this has been sorted today. Gibraltar is to stay in the Schengen Area


Just came here to post that, you got here way before me. :Hilarious Thank goodness for that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Seems as if this has been sorted today. Gibraltar is to stay in the Schengen Area


It is not a treaty or a deal, it is " in principle"... 
But of course Scrip can go to vet (at least likely)!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> It is not a treaty or a deal, it is " in principle"...
> But of course Scrip can go to vet (at least likely)!


It's only the EU standing in the way. All other parties have agreed


----------



## 3dogs2cats

cheekyscrip said:


> It is not a treaty or a deal, it is " in principle"...
> But of course Scrip can go to vet (at least likely)!


 Really hope he can and without to much upheaval and pratting about with papers etc.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> It is not a treaty or a deal, it is " in principle"...
> But of course Scrip can go to vet (at least likely)!


How is Scrip doing?


----------



## Guest

Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.

I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.

The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.

The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.
> 
> I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.
> 
> The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.
> 
> The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


Do you really think it's all over that we can do what we like, well think again it's only just started we have know idea what's the next few months hold, I just hope you don't regret how you voted.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> Do you really think it's all over that we can do what we like, well think again it's only just started we have know idea what's the next few months hold, I just hope you don't regret how you voted.


Of course the debate is over. The UK is out of the EU. Sorry I don't share yours or others pessimistic views. The UK needs to look ahead now and forge its own future.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> Do you really think it's all over that we can do what we like, well think again it's only just started we have know idea what's the next few months hold, I just hope you don't regret how you voted.


Of course it is not over
The remainers will see to that and do their best to prove they are right

BUT
We can now stand up in the world and show our face @rawpawsrus is right, It is now up to the rest of us to make te best we can
of it. and we will

Not me personally, I am too old but would love to see what this country is like in 20 years time


----------



## Happy Paws2

We are still tied to the EU for sometime yet, if we do something they class as unfair they can still take us to court. We aren't as free as some would like to think we are, we have to make the best of a bad deal BJ has got us.

And don'r forget the deal has to be voted on by the 27 counties again, remember how Belgium block the deal with Canada nothing is as clear as we think.


----------



## Guest

All the EU 27 will be doing is nodding the deal through into law in there countries as it has already been signed by the President of the EU and PM of the UK so it is already law. The deal cannot be changed so we have to make do with what has been agreed.

Like wise if the EU does something wrong the UK can take them to arbitration, the EU won't take the UK to court as the ECJ has no authority over the deal, it will go to arbitration to be sorted out and if that doesn't work then tariffs can be applied to either the EU or the UK or both.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.
> 
> I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.
> 
> The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.
> 
> The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


Is there really any need for this.:Banghead


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Is there really any need for this.:Banghead


Yes because some remainers really laid into leave voters and there was no need for it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> We can now stand up in the world and show our face @rawpawsrus is right, It is now up to the rest of us to make te best we can
> of it. and we will
> 
> Not me personally, I am too old but would love to see *what this country is like in 20 years time*


And me, I'm just glad I'll not see the mess BJ has got us into.


----------



## JANICE199

*I have changed my mind a few times over this. Lately i have wanted to remain. I don't trust the way this country is going. Time will tell. *


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> And me, I'm just glad I'll not see the mess BJ has got us into.


BJ won't be PM in 20 years time and te ones trying to get us in a mess are the remainers who are afrid to stand on their own two feet and want the EU to tell them what to do


----------



## Pawscrossed

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.
> 
> I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.
> 
> The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.
> 
> The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


Everyone has the right to protest and I've seen a lot of unnecessary gloating since 2016 by leave voters, on all sides actually, because it doesn't end here and it matters. I admire your head in the sand patriotic attitude but I do not share it.

My little business has to find the time and resources to fill in customs forms for example. I do not know if I can send parcels overseas because it will take time which means whomever I ask to do that, won't be doing something else which they are paid to do. My NYE was spent like most of Christmas, poring over figures. It is one small thing that numerous businesss will suffer with and there are more. One of my suppliers who makes aids for disabled children has found out she has to pay for CE checks because they aren't valid under our new status, she's very likely to go out of business or stop shipping which also means she will go out of business, her market abroad is too great. The cost of retesting to comply with post Brexit is too great. That cost, and the cost I have to bear will be around for years. I may have to make someone redundant to afford to complete customs paperwork which will affect that person. My friend loosing her business means hundreds of kids won't get support and her customers were already concerned she was in the UK. In the town I live in, dyed in the wool Tory, I can list so many business owners affected by this, not through lack of planning but no communications.

On a bigger scale there is a huge impact to environment, welfare and the NHS. However I look forward to my sovereignty being delivered by unicorn though it is possibly in a lorry park in Kent, with a Union Jack up its arse no doubt. Said with bittersweet sadness for I voted leave


----------



## MollySmith

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.
> 
> I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.
> 
> The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.
> 
> The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


You don't half hang out with some strange company.


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> Everyone has the right to protest and I've seen a lot of unnecessary gloating since 2016 by leave voters, on all sides actually, because it doesn't end here and it matters. I admire your head in the sand patriotic attitude but I do not share it.
> 
> My little business has to find the time and resources to fill in customs forms for example. I do not know if I can send parcels overseas because it will take time which means whomever I ask to do that, won't be doing something else which they are paid to do. My NYE was spent like most of Christmas, poring over figures. It is one small thing that numerous businesss will suffer with and there are more. One of my suppliers who makes aids for disabled children has found out she has to pay for CE checks because they aren't valid under our new status, she's very likely to go out of business or stop shipping which also means she will go out of business, her market abroad is too great. The cost of retesting to comply with post Brexit is too great. That cost, and the cost I have to bear will be around for years. I may have to make someone redundant to afford to complete customs paperwork which will affect that person. My friend loosing her business means hundreds of kids won't get support and her customers were already concerned she was in the UK. In the town I live in, dyed in the wool Tory, I can list so many business owners affected by this, not through lack of planning but no communications.
> 
> On a bigger scale there is a huge impact to environment, welfare and the NHS. However I look forward to my sovereignty being delivered by unicorn though it is possibly in a lorry park in Kent, with a Union Jack up its arse no doubt. Said with bittersweet sadness for I voted leave


I am so sorry you have tackle all these decisions. I hope you both manage to keep afloat.


----------



## Lurcherlad

rawpawsrus said:


> Yes because some remainers really laid into leave voters and there was no need for it.


I voted leave, but really, given all that's going on atm I wish all the arguing and sarcasm could just stop tbh.

It is what it is, and we'll all find out how things go in time .... some things may be better, others maybe not.


----------



## Guest

MollySmith said:


> You don't half hang out with some strange company.


Remember the headlines

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607.amp

This is one example of remainers trying to Stoke fear into people from voting leave.

Not the company I keep at all.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> BJ won't be PM in 20 years time and te ones trying to get us in a mess are the remainers who are afrid to stand on their own two feet and want the EU to tell them what to do


I don't talk rubbish!!

I'm out of here can't talk to a closed mind.


----------



## Bisbow

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't talk rubbish!!
> 
> I'm out of here can't talk to a closed mind.


I did not say you talk rubbish

And as for a closed mind ??? well???


----------



## Calvine

rawpawsrus said:


> Well the predictions of 2016 from some of those that voted remain never came true. World War 3 did not break out, the skies didn't fall down, the end of the world never happened, aliens did not come down to kill us all and all the other silly scaremongering predictions never happened that some remain voters made. What did happen was shortly after midnight freight lorries crossed the French border in Folkestone after showing French border police the correct paper work and boarded the Euro Tunnel train to go to France.
> 
> I voted remain but thought it was disgusting how some remainers have treated those that voted leave and decided in last year's General Election to vote for Boris to Get Brexit Done. Yes I changed sides in the debate.
> 
> The UK has its own future in its hands now and the UK people can keep its Government to account if things go wrong by voting the ruling party out every 5 years if things do go wrong.
> 
> The UK has done some impressive things since it left the EU in January 2020. It now has 60 trade deals (yes most of them are roll over deals but are deals anyway) and negotiated a £660 billion pound per year comprehensive agreement with the EU. Some remainers said the UK would never be able to negotiate one deal, how wrong you was. The UK has launched itself onto the world stage despite all the criticism thrown at leave voters and the ruling Government. It is now down to the UK to make a success of its future.


Just wanted to say thank you for being so honest.


----------



## MollySmith

rawpawsrus said:


> Remember the headlines
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607.amp
> 
> This is one example of remainers trying to Stoke fear into people from voting leave.
> 
> Not the company I keep at all.


Oh I thought you actually had these conversations. It's a newspaper link, how disappointing, I thought it was a reliable source.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> How is Scrip doing?


Thank you, much better with new medication , but I need to take him to Spain soon to have his bloods done to see how it goes...


----------



## MollySmith




----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 459222
> 
> Thank you, much better with new medication , but I need to take him to Spain soon to have his bloods done to see how it goes...


He's looking really good, especially considering his problems.
You must be doing something right


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 459222
> 
> Thank you, much better with new medication , but I need to take him to Spain soon to have his bloods done to see how it goes...


Bless him.:Kiss fingers crossed you can get his bloods done.


----------



## cheekyscrip

So far Spanish customs search our Cars etc.. as we cannot bring dairy or meat products to EU.
Morrison's is empty as lorries from UKcannot bring those products through EU to us...
To go to Spain I need passport and ID but ID is no longer valid?
The dog needs the valid license apart of the passport but the license needs to be renewed as it is not valid from 1st January, and as Gibraltar is in full lockdown we cannot go to pay for the license- they need us to come with the proof of vaccines.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 459382
> So far Spanish customs search our Cars etc.. as we cannot bring dairy or meat products to EU.
> Morrison's is empty as lorries from UKcannot bring those products through EU to us...
> To go to Spain I need passport and ID but ID is no longer valid?
> The dog needs the valid license apart of the passport but the license needs to be renewed as it is not valid from 1st January, and as Gibraltar is in full lockdown we cannot go to pay for the license- they need us to come with the proof of vaccines.


Oh dear BJ has give us mess to sort out and I think the worse is still to come.


----------



## Elles

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Picardo's Twitter. He denies it. Restrictions are down to covid, not brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
> 
> Picardo's Twitter. He denies it. Restrictions are down to covid, not brexit.


Searching cars and throwing away food, even bought in Spain with receipts?
Is not.
Honestly not even Fabian knows what is going on really.
Scrip missed his appointment today.
Betwen Covid and Brexit just impossible to move.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Searching cars and throwing away food, even bought in Spain with receipts?
> Is not.
> Honestly not even Fabian knows what is going on really.
> Scrip missed his appointment today.
> Betwen Covid and Brexit just impossible to move.


Don't they do things like this every few years anyway?
I'm sure I can remember you several times on here complaining about the border.........the border that wasn't supposed to be there and that the EU did nothing about.... I'm sure it was you?

THIS
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/another-nastiness.367026/#post-1063706774

THIS
my town..under the siege...
just for creating a small fish protection zone...border impassable...

and if you get to the other side thenyou and your car can be assaulted with total impunity...

but NOTHING IS DONE! to protect us and our rights...

EU - commission came..so on that day Spain obviously let cars and pedestrians pass..commissioners had lunch and left happy...
pederstrian queues for those who work here or go to school: two hours,in and out!!!

Please, skip hols in Spain this year, and put down that rubbishy Rioja!
cheekyscrip, Jan 11, 2014

THIS
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/under-the-siege.319439/#post-1063110416

Couldn't bother to search any more, but I'm sure there were even more before Brexit was mentioned


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Don't they do things like this every few years anyway?
> I'm sure I can remember you several times on here complaining about the border.........the border that wasn't supposed to be there and that the EU did nothing about.... I'm sure it was you?
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/another-nastiness.367026/#post-1063706774
> 
> THIS
> my town..under the siege...
> just for creating a small fish protection zone...border impassable...
> 
> and if you get to the other side thenyou and your car can be assaulted with total impunity...
> 
> but NOTHING IS DONE! to protect us and our rights...
> 
> EU - commission came..so on that day Spain obviously let cars and pedestrians pass..commissioners had lunch and left happy...
> pederstrian queues for those who work here or go to school: two hours,in and out!!!
> 
> Please, skip hols in Spain this year, and put down that rubbishy Rioja!
> cheekyscrip, Jan 11, 2014
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/under-the-siege.319439/#post-1063110416
> 
> Couldn't bother to search any more, but I'm sure there were even more before Brexit was mentioned


My word you have been digging haven't you, I wouldn't like to be in cheekyscrip position having to put up with everything that Spain has been throwing at Gibraltar. I think a little support is needed.

.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> My word you have been digging haven't you, I wouldn't like to be in cheekyscrip position having to put up with everything that Spain has been throwing at Gibraltar. I think a little support is needed.
> 
> .


Like I got you mean? 
Private gripe, you wouldn't get that

Off course I'm upset about Scripp suffering but I'll not sit back and let everything be blamed on Brexit. Which by the way seems to be Cheeky's main concern


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Like I got you mean?
> Private gripe, you wouldn't get that
> 
> Off course I'm upset about Scripp suffering but I'll not sit back and let everything be blamed on Brexit. Which by the way seems to be Cheeky's main concern


But Brexit hasn't helped has it.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> But Brexit hasn't helped has it.


Nor has Covid but you don't see her going on and on about that?

Sorry, this is my own personal hurt and has nothing to do with anyone else. Final post on this subject


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 459273


We should have more stories from the Sunday Sport I reckon


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Don't they do things like this every few years anyway?
> I'm sure I can remember you several times on here complaining about the border.........the border that wasn't supposed to be there and that the EU did nothing about.... I'm sure it was you?
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/another-nastiness.367026/#post-1063706774
> 
> THIS
> my town..under the siege...
> just for creating a small fish protection zone...border impassable...
> 
> and if you get to the other side thenyou and your car can be assaulted with total impunity...
> 
> but NOTHING IS DONE! to protect us and our rights...
> 
> EU - commission came..so on that day Spain obviously let cars and pedestrians pass..commissioners had lunch and left happy...
> pederstrian queues for those who work here or go to school: two hours,in and out!!!
> 
> Please, skip hols in Spain this year, and put down that rubbishy Rioja!
> cheekyscrip, Jan 11, 2014
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/under-the-siege.319439/#post-1063110416
> 
> Couldn't bother to search any more, but I'm sure there were even more before Brexit was mentioned


I lived in Spain from 1982 to 1987 and sometimes went to Gibraltar to buy British groceries. From time to time you encountered the same problems with Spanish customs as are being experienced now. For example all my groceries were checked item by item and anything you didn't have a receipt for was confiscated.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> My word you have been digging haven't you, I wouldn't like to be in cheekyscrip position having to put up with everything that Spain has been throwing at Gibraltar. I think a little support is needed.
> 
> .


and so what if its the truth? If someone says something and then contradicts it later then I dont see whats wrong with that.

I can see this thread is going to end up nasty again. 



MilleD said:


> We should have more stories from the Sunday Sport I reckon


I didnt know it was real . i thought it was a mock up one. :Hilarious


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> and so what if its the truth? If someone says something and then contradicts it later then I dont see whats wrong with that.
> 
> I can see this thread is going to end up nasty again.
> 
> .


Not between HP and me...........no way


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> and so what if its the truth? If someone says something and then contradicts it later then I dont see whats wrong with that.
> 
> I can see this thread is going to end up nasty again.
> 
> I didnt know it was real . i thought it was a mock up one. :Hilarious


Yes it's real, but before my reputation sinks lower than Nigel Farage at a remainers reunion, I should say this was shared by the very brilliant Angry People in Local Newspapers website and it _is_ an actual Sunday Sport article.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Yes it's real, but before my reputation sinks lower than Nigel Farage at a remainers reunion, I should say this was shared by the very brilliant Angry People in Local Newspapers website and it _is_ an actual Sunday Sport article.










I might buy it . I could do with a laugh! Make a change from the Sun on Sunday :Hilarious


----------



## MilleD

MollySmith said:


> Yes it's real, but before my reputation sinks lower than Nigel Farage at a remainers reunion, I should say this was shared by the very brilliant Angry People in Local Newspapers website and it _is_ an actual Sunday Sport article.


God, I love APILN. It's the highlight of my day when it comes up on my feed.


----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> I might buy it . I could do with a laugh! Make a change from the Sun on Sunday :Hilarious


I'll only get it if you still get to look at boobies :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> I'll only get it if you still get to look at boobies :Hilarious


:Hilarious I'd rather look at a page 7 fella . I love mullets ! Im going to get told off now for going OT 
*
*


----------



## Lurcherlad




----------



## MilleD

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I'd rather look at a page 7 fella . I love mullets ! Im going to get told off now for going OT
> *
> *


Is that even a thing?? I don't mean his thing... erm....


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Don't they do things like this every few years anyway?
> I'm sure I can remember you several times on here complaining about the border.........the border that wasn't supposed to be there and that the EU did nothing about.... I'm sure it was you?
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/another-nastiness.367026/#post-1063706774
> 
> THIS
> my town..under the siege...
> just for creating a small fish protection zone...border impassable...
> 
> and if you get to the other side thenyou and your car can be assaulted with total impunity...
> 
> but NOTHING IS DONE! to protect us and our rights...
> 
> EU - commission came..so on that day Spain obviously let cars and pedestrians pass..commissioners had lunch and left happy...
> pederstrian queues for those who work here or go to school: two hours,in and out!!!
> 
> Please, skip hols in Spain this year, and put down that rubbishy Rioja!
> cheekyscrip, Jan 11, 2014
> 
> THIS
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/under-the-siege.319439/#post-1063110416
> 
> Couldn't bother to search any more, but I'm sure there were even more before Brexit was mentioned


Yes, so imagine if it was difficult before how it is now!!!

Imagine that we have no treaty, no deal as Johnson left us out of the Deal with EU.
When the nationalists from Partido Popular get in power what then?


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> a
> *I can see this thread is going to end up nasty again.*





rona said:


> Not between HP and me...........no way


No way.... not between me and Rona.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Searching cars and throwing away food, even bought in Spain with receipts?
> Is not.
> Honestly not even Fabian knows what is going on really.
> Scrip missed his appointment today.
> Betwen Covid and Brexit just impossible to move.


Sorry to hear Scrip missed his appointment, hopefully you can get it rearranged. It's a shame Spain have taken this opportunity to once again mess and restrict movement under the guise of Brexit & COVID-19. There shortsightedness and arrogance will once again hurt the region on both sides as per usual.

I hope you and the others on The Rock get things sorted


----------



## HarlequinCat

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I'd rather look at a page 7 fella . I love mullets ! Im going to get told off now for going OT
> *
> *


:Yuck I'd be happy never to see that mullet guy again!

I mean come on who buys the Daily Sport for serious Journalism. The Daily Star is on par! 
My OH bought one once while we were in a cafe, the had sold out of all other papers, but it did give us a laugh, some of the articles were ridiculous


----------



## MollySmith

MilleD said:


> God, I love APILN. It's the highlight of my day when it comes up on my feed.


 It's great isn't it. I've just realised that the Sunday Sport was shared by Trumpton - a micky take of the kids to series. However..... yes APILN is fantastic. Ron and Mrs Ron.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I'd rather look at a page 7 fella . I love mullets ! Im going to get told off now for going OT
> *
> *


isn't that the guy who was in Bugs - a tv show in 1990s....

Craig McLachlan? I only watched Neighbours when he was in it.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> I might buy it . I could do with a laugh! Make a change from the Sun on Sunday :Hilarious


go on, dare you. You'd probably get an award for being their only customer. Probably a paper bag!


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> isn't that the guy who was in Bugs - a tv show in 1990s....
> Craig McLachlan? I only watched Neighbours when he was in it.


I dont remember Bugs but did and still do sometimes watch Neigbours. It looks like him a bit but I'm sure its not him. I loved the Doctor Blake Mysteries programme he was in .

Craig as Henry


----------



## KittenKong

Disgusting








https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-pesticide-insect-sugar-neonic-b1784693.html


----------



## rona

Not exactly banned by the EU as it was used in various countries last year including Belgium and France

https://braveneweurope.com/rfi-france-moves-to-ease-pesticide-ban-to-save-sugar-beet-farmers

Also, as far as I can tell, it's only on one crop......Sugar Beet


----------



## Guest

If the pesticide is banned in the European Union then some countries that are in Europe are breaking the ban but I don't see the European Courts of Justice in a rush to prosecute Belgium or France.

The United Kingdom is no longer part of the European Union so the ban wouldn't apply surely.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Not exactly banned by the EU as it was used in various countries last year including Belgium and France
> 
> https://braveneweurope.com/rfi-france-moves-to-ease-pesticide-ban-to-save-sugar-beet-farmers
> 
> Also, as far as I can tell, it's only on one crop......Sugar Beet


Well it's clear countries that are using it are breaking the ruling. At least the ban is a step in the right direction. Still, I guess bees no longer matter in Trump Britain.

Anyone defending the new border between NI and the mainland, something that didn't exist before the UK joined the EEC?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## rona

rawpawsrus said:


> If the pesticide is banned in the European Union then some countries that are in Europe are breaking the ban but I don't see the European Courts of Justice in a rush to prosecute Belgium or France.


You aren't understanding. The EU granted use of them to 10 countries last year. In sugar beet, as our government has done.
In UK it's as a seed dressing, still a risk, but it's not a flowering crop and our sugar beet crops are relatively low, though it does affect two counties worse than others.

https://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/pes...substances/approval_renewal/neonicotinoids_en

EU also allows use in glasshouses


----------



## rona

https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2021...ntrols-for-emergency-pesticide-authorisation/

"There have been reports this morning in the Guardian and Independent of the emergency authorisation of a neonicotinoid seed treatment for the limited use only on the 2021 sugar beet crop.

Emerging sugar beet seedlings are vulnerable to predation by aphids which have the potential to spread beet yellows virus. Sugar beet crops have been severely affected and 2020 yields are forecast to be down by 20-25% on previous years.

The neonicotinoid Syngenta's Cruiser SB will provide emergency protection while the beet industry develops alternative solutions. Its exceptional use will be strictly controlled.

Conditions of the authorisation include reduced application rate as well as a prohibition on any flowering crop being planted in the same field where the product has been used within 22 months of sugar beet and a prohibition on oilseed rape being planted with 32 months of sugar beet.

The coverage of this news does not reflect the fact that under EU legislation, member states may also grant emergency authorisations in exceptional circumstances.

10 EU countries including Belgium, Denmark and Spain - most EU countries with significant sugar production - have granted emergency authorisations for neonicotinoid seed treatments following the EU-wide ban - backed by the UK - coming into force.

The UK's approach to the use of emergency authorisations has therefore not changed as a result of the UK's exit from the EU.

*A Defra spokesperson said:*

"Emergency authorisations for pesticides are only granted in exceptional circumstances where diseases or pests cannot be controlled by any other reasonable means. Emergency authorisations are used by countries across Europe.

"Pesticides can only be used where we judge there to be no harm to human health and animal health and no unacceptable risks to the environment. The temporary use of this product is strictly limited to a non-flowering crop and will be tightly controlled to minimise any potential risk to pollinators."

This exceptional use of Syngenta's Cruiser SB will be strictly controlled and is for the 2021 sugar beet crop in England only. The duration of authorisation is strictly limited to the period required to allow supply of the product.

Protecting pollinators is a priority for this Government, and the UK is a world leader in developing greener farming practises and upholds the highest standards of environmental and health protection."


----------



## KittenKong

"Out with pesky Rabbit food. No more EU Five a day propaganda now we have our Great British Bread and Beef Dripping back":Hilarious


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> "Out with pesky Rabbit food. No more EU Five a day propaganda now we have our Great British Bread and Beef Dripping back":Hilarious
> View attachment 459956


Oh for heavens sake, that could have been taken any Sunday afternoon in my local Tesco.
When was that picture taken?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Oh for heavens sake, that could have been taken any Sunday afternoon in my local Tesco.
> When was that picture taken?


To be fair, I was in a supermarket last week and a lot of the veg shelves there were like that too, which I have honestly never seen before in that store at that time of week or day - sometimes low levels of stock, but never half the aisle blanked off like that indicating no more stock was coming out. It was a bit disconcerting.


----------



## MilleD

rona said:


> Oh for heavens sake, that could have been taken any Sunday afternoon in my local Tesco.
> When was that picture taken?


Probably as likely to be Covid related as EU.


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Probably as likely to be Covid related as EU.


Yes I heard a lot of stores are short of staff due to covid


----------



## Lurcherlad

Oh boo hoo our stores can’t get deliveries of French apples .... maybe the British growers can find a market here for their produce?


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Oh for heavens sake, that could have been taken any Sunday afternoon in my local Tesco.
> When was that picture taken?


In my Spar last Sunday, no bananas, no lettuce, cauliflower, courgettes or broccoli and hardly any tomatoes or grapes.

I don't live in the UK.


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> Oh boo hoo our stores can't get deliveries of French apples .... maybe the British growers can find a market here for their produce?


Depends if British growers have right kinds of varieties. Not all apples are for eating or cooking.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> Depends if British growers have right kinds of varieties. Not all apples are for eating or cooking.


There was a time when we used to have both beautiful eating and cooking apples. Sadly that all altered when we joined the EU who produces some of the most tasteless varieties imaginable.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> There was a time when we used to have both beautiful eating and cooking apples. Sadly that all altered when we joined the EU who produces some of the most tasteless varieties imaginable.


More to do with the supermarkets and their conformity/standardisation/profitability rules than the EU, I suspect...


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> Depends if British growers have right kinds of varieties. Not all apples are for eating or cooking.


Of course.


----------



## Guest

This is the meat counter in my local Tesco. Looking around at how full people's shopping trollies was I put it down to the panic buyers as people's shopping trollies were over filled. There shouldn't be a shortage of meat as they sell British Lamb, British Beef, British Chickens etc, the greed of some people is ridiculous.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> More to do with the supermarkets and their conformity/standardisation/profitability rules than the EU, I suspect...


It's usually us, the consumer who gets the blame ..... it's what we want, apparently.

We can only buy what's in the shops.


----------



## Guest

Alot of the empty shelves are due to pickers not being able to pick fruit and veg, abattoirs not being able to process meat quick enough etc as people aren't working due to the current lockdown.


----------



## Guest

These shortages are not just isolated to the UK, countries right around Europe and possible in other parts of the world are having the same problems due to lockdowns.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> More to do with the supermarkets and their conformity/standardisation/profitability rules than the EU, I suspect...


What about this EU directive then? The supermarkets don't appear to have a say.

http://applesfromeurope.eu/for-professionals/commercial-quality-of-apples

*COMMERCIAL QUALITY OF APPLES*


----------



## Siskin

rawpawsrus said:


> View attachment 459968
> 
> This is the meat counter in my local Tesco. Looking around at how full people's shopping trollies was I put it down to the panic buyers as people's shopping trollies were over filled. There shouldn't be a shortage of meat as they sell British Lamb, British Beef, British Chickens etc, the greed of some people is ridiculous.


Was this counter actually operating? A lot of deli counters at Tesco's are not working all week. We have a Tesco extra, so a big store, which only operates the deli counter from Wednesday onwards, closed Monday and Tuesday and everything cleared away for obvious reasons


----------



## Guest

Siskin said:


> Was this counter actually operating? A lot of deli counters at Tesco's are not working all week. We have a Tesco extra, so a big store, which only operates the deli counter from Wednesday onwards, closed Monday and Tuesday and everything cleared away for obvious reasons


The fish counter was stocked up next to the meat counter and the staff was there.


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> It's usually us, the consumer who gets the blame ..... it's what we want, apparently.
> 
> We can only buy what's in the shops.


Cynical old me is more of the opinion that we, the consumers, have by now been well trained by the supermarkets as to what we want...



Magyarmum said:


> What about this EU directive then? The supermarkets don't appear to have a say.
> 
> http://applesfromeurope.eu/for-professionals/commercial-quality-of-apples
> 
> *COMMERCIAL QUALITY OF APPLES*


Again, cynical old me suspects there were a fair few supermarkets involved in lobbying for the details of the regulations, as it favours them


----------



## Happy Paws2

Wrong thread


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> Cynical old me is more of the opinion that we, the consumers, have by now been well trained by the supermarkets as to what we want...
> 
> Again, cynical old me suspects there were a fair few supermarkets involved in lobbying for the details of the regulations, as it favours them


As consumers, maybe we should be a bit more selective what we buy?

I never buy French apples, for instance


----------



## Guest

Lurcherlad said:


> As consumers, maybe we should be a bit more selective what we buy?
> 
> I never buy French apples, for instance


I have never seen a French Apple in Tesco's or in any other shop that sells apples in my area.


----------



## Lurcherlad

rawpawsrus said:


> I have never seen a French Apple in Tesco's or in any other shop that sells apples in my area.


Blimey - where do you live?


----------



## Guest

Lurcherlad said:


> Blimey - where do you live?


We'll the apples don't have the French flag on them or grown in France on them (saying that the packaging normally just goes in the bin) apples are apples :Hilarious

I'll be honest I just looked it up and see that Golden Delicious are grown in France and various other locations in Europe so fair enough.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Morrison’s in Gibraltar are empty.,Lorries stuck. Now they have to go the last few miles by ferry across from Algeciras which 10 minutes drive.
Expats can’t buy any meat or dairy products or anything containing those across to Spain.

Looks like Veganuary....


----------



## MilleD

Siskin said:


> Was this counter actually operating? A lot of deli counters at Tesco's are not working all week. We have a Tesco extra, so a big store, which only operates the deli counter from Wednesday onwards, closed Monday and Tuesday and everything cleared away for obvious reasons


We have certain deli counters open and certain ones closed in my local Sainsbury's. Due to staffing and people having to be close together when being served. They are still producing some deli stuff, but putting in on the normal shelves.

The salad bar seems to have gone completely which isn't surprising as there are fewer people at work.


----------



## Magyarmum

Slightly off topic but talking of fruit and veg I found this article from 2008 which I thought was interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7724347.stm

*Will we eat wonky fruit and veg?*


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> Slightly off topic but talking of fruit and veg I found this article from 2008 which I thought was interesting.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7724347.stm
> 
> *Will we eat wonky fruit and veg?*


Supermarkets do sell wonky veg, but they seem to label it that way, so it's still extra processes to split it from the 'proper' veg.


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Supermarkets do sell wonky veg, but they seem to label it that way, so it's still extra processes to split it from the 'proper' veg.


I know they do. Same over here. Just thought it was interesting because this was a discussion some 13 years ago.


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> I know they do. Same over here. Just thought it was interesting because this was a discussion some 13 years ago.


Do they split it out there too?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> Do they split it out there too?


Tesco do plastic bags of "wonky" veg and fruit which are cheaper, (can't remember what they're called), as do some of the larger supermarkets The smaller grocery stores sell loose and are mostly local produce and wonky or not are all the same price.

I grow most of my own veggies so it doesn't bother me if they're wonky on not - they still taste the same.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Tesco do plastic bags of "wonky" veg and fruit which are cheaper, (can't remember what they're called), as do some of the larger supermarkets The smaller grocery stores sell loose and are mostly local produce and wonky or not are all the same price.
> 
> I grow most of my own veggies so it doesn't bother me if they're wonky on not -* they still taste the same.*


As you say they all taste the same what ever they look like.


----------



## Bisbow

The only wonky stuff I have had bother with is parsnips
They were awful, all core and nothing else
Every thing else I have had has been fine


----------



## Magyarmum

Bisbow said:


> The only wonky stuff I have had bother with is parsnips
> They were awful, all core and nothing else
> Every thing else I have had has been fine


I love roast parsnips but for some reason they're very expensive over here. About £3.20 a kg


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm almost lost for words... aren't they paid to read these documents.

https://thelevantnews.com/en/2021/0...read-brexit-bill-as-she-was-busy-at-nativity/


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Wrong thread


Easily done. ! 











Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm almost lost for words... aren't they paid to read these documents.
> 
> https://thelevantnews.com/en/2021/0...read-brexit-bill-as-she-was-busy-at-nativity/


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Oh for heavens sake, that could have been taken any Sunday afternoon in my local Tesco.
> When was that picture taken?


No bananas in Aldi the other day. They were always plentiful before January 1st. Perhaps people are waking up to the fact they aren't grown in Britain.....

The picture was taken in Northern Ireland, who are struggling to come to terms with Brexit related red tape, something this part of the UK never had to contend with before joining the EEC.

Worst Tory disaster since the Poll Tax.


----------



## Nicola234

I was in Asda the other day and there was announcements over the tanoid that they were rationing tomatoes, peppers etc to 1 pack per customer


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> No bananas in Aldi the other day. They were always plentiful before January 1st. Perhaps people are waking up to the fact they aren't grown in Britain.....
> 
> The picture was taken in Northern Ireland, who are struggling to come to terms with Brexit related red tape, something this part of the UK never had to contend with before joining the EEC.
> 
> Worst Tory disaster since the Poll Tax.


Of course bananas aren't grown in the UK. Do you really think people are that thick?

Again there are food shortages in other countries around the world due to less people picking fruit and veg due to staff shortages due to lockdowns. Less pickers, less fruit and veg.


----------



## Guest

Nicola234 said:


> I was in Asda the other day and there was announcements over the tanoid that they were rationing tomatoes, peppers etc to 1 pack per customer


Nearly every supermarket are doing the same due to inconsiderate people stockpiling. I have seen people taking more than what is needed (toilet roll, pasta, pasta sauce, baked beans, kitchen roll etc). Some supermarkets have been rationing goods since the first lockdown to allow other people to be able to have a chance of getting items.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Plenty of bananas in all stores round here.

Got my full order of bananas from Asda as usual - 3 packs.


----------



## Guest

I have found if I walk in and shop in Tesco they have a few empty shelves for the items I want but if I shop online I get everything delivered that I was looking for in store and the shopping is delivered from the same store.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The fishermen aren't happy, crabs dying in lorries trying to get to France.


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> The fishermen aren't happy, crabs dying in lorries trying to get to France.


Poor crabs. Not that the fisherman give a crap how they are handled most of the time.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MilleD said:


> Poor crabs. Not that the fisherman give a crap how they are handled most of the time.


I agree with you I don't like the way they are treated, but it's there livelihood and they are losing a lot of money.


----------



## Bisbow

It is the EU being bloody minded because we escaped their clutches


----------



## Jesthar

Bisbow said:


> It is the EU being bloody minded because we escaped their clutches


*sigh* No, it isn't. It's just the bureaucracy we were warned would happen and that we would have to comply with - the same as any non-EU country that doesn't have a freedom of movement. The main problem is we aren't used to it and, thanks to the government dilly dallying about until the last possible moment about trade, we didn't know until the last possible moment what the terms would actually be and weren't able to prepare for them - nor were the EU.

Take the seafood. Before they could go from supplier to purchaser with little friction, just samples taken for testing. Now the whole truck contents are having to be checked and signed off by a vet on arrival in the EU, and there aren't enough vets to do that at the moment, plus computer problems and glitches (to be expected in any new system, especially one configured at the last minute), hence the delays. Hopefully that will be sorted and it will improve, but at the moment many Scottish vessels are choosing to sail two extra days and land their catches in Denmark to get a decent price, especially as many purchasers are already switching their loyalties to Danish seafood due to receiving rotten consignments from the UK. Two days extra marine fuel is a massive expense, but at the moment it's better than the plummeting prices in Scotland.

You'll also have noticed that some big companies - John Lewis, Debenhams and Fortnum and Mason, for example - have suspended Eu deliver. Some (like John Lewis) are calling it a strategy to focus on the UK market (which is basically code for "the EU market isn't worth it at the moment"), others because the new rules and the UK guidance surrounding them are confusing. In particular, the 'rule of origin' part of the deal means any individual components in products not made in the UK or EU are now subject to tarrifs and VAT when importing to the EU, and given how many small components come from China etc. that's a nightmare. Small to medium companies in particular are having massive issues with this, plus all the extra import duties (a minimum of about £20-£25 _per parcel_) on top of that. None of which could be really planned for due to the last second nature of the deal.

Still, it's a lot less costly than a no deal would have been, which is one positive.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> It is the EU being bloody minded because we escaped their clutches


BJ signed the Deal so you can't just blame the EU his just as much to blame.


----------



## Bisbow

I can blame the EU and I will
They are the cause of most of our problems that we have had for over 40 years
Biggest mistake this country ever made when we joined


----------



## Happy Paws2

:Hilarious


----------



## Bisbow

I am not wishing to start an argument but that is my view and I am sticking to it and that is my last word on the subject


----------



## Happy Paws2

Bisbow said:


> I am not wishing to start an argument but that is my view and I am sticking to it and that is my last word on the subject


and mine


----------



## kimthecat

Theres bound to be hitches , it all very last minute and also Covid. I wouldn't expect things to go smoothly.


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> *sigh* No, it isn't. It's just the bureaucracy we were warned would happen and that we would have to comply with - the same as any non-EU country that doesn't have a freedom of movement. The main problem is we aren't used to it and, thanks to the government dilly dallying about until the last possible moment about trade, we didn't know until the last possible moment what the terms would actually be and weren't able to prepare for them - nor were the EU.
> 
> Take the seafood. Before they could go from supplier to purchaser with little friction, just samples taken for testing. Now the whole truck contents are having to be checked and signed off by a vet on arrival in the EU, and there aren't enough vets to do that at the moment, plus computer problems and glitches (to be expected in any new system, especially one configured at the last minute), hence the delays. Hopefully that will be sorted and it will improve, but at the moment many Scottish vessels are choosing to sail two extra days and land their catches in Denmark to get a decent price, especially as many purchasers are already switching their loyalties to Danish seafood due to receiving rotten consignments from the UK. Two days extra marine fuel is a massive expense, but at the moment it's better than the plummeting prices in Scotland.
> 
> You'll also have noticed that some big companies - John Lewis, Debenhams and Fortnum and Mason, for example - have suspended Eu deliver. Some (like John Lewis) are calling it a strategy to focus on the UK market (which is basically code for "the EU market isn't worth it at the moment"), others because the new rules and the UK guidance surrounding them are confusing. In particular, the 'rule of origin' part of the deal means any individual components in products not made in the UK or EU are now subject to tarrifs and VAT when importing to the EU, and given how many small components come from China etc. that's a nightmare. Small to medium companies in particular are having massive issues with this, plus all the extra import duties (a minimum of about £20-£25 _per parcel_) on top of that. None of which could be really planned for due to the last second nature of the deal.
> 
> Still, it's a lot less costly than a no deal would have been, which is one positive.


Also see Percy Pigs in M&S and Ireland

And one of my clients who publishes educational material for schools but often print abroad. Import duties are causing havoc and whilst it's simple to say 'print in the UK' the shipping miles, air cost, time and carbon load are prohibitive as is the lack of appropriate suppliers. Until the deal was made, they were not really able to move very far forward. Fortunately they have the staff in place to create several scenarios but for suppliers like me and their staff it's caused some very long days and nights trying to implement a solution that means schools won't pay more - TBC. And at a time when we're all really under pressure from Covid too. It's not been good for mental welfare.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well most of them voted to come out.... you reap what you sow.
I feel sorry for the crabs ect... dying in lorries trying to catch the ferries to the EU but the fishermen have only got themselves to blame.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55706114


----------



## Daffne

I’m a latecomer to this thread, but I am aware what a vexed matter Brexit has been. On the whole I could see some merit in arguments on both sides of the debate.

But it is all a bit moot now - we’ve left the EU, so I hope that we will see more positive than negative outcomes.

I’d venture the suggestion that one positive outcome has been the UK’s choice not to join the EU’s Covid vaccine programme but to act independently, which seems to have given us more flexibility and meant that we are ahead of the EU initiative.

I understand that this isn’t a direct consequence of Brexit - we could still have chosen to sign up to being part of the EU vaccine programme - but I think the fact we have left the EU made the choice to manage the Covid vaccine independently more likely, and it has turned out, in my view, to have been a good choice as we are seeing a swift roll-out of vaccines which will hopefully save lives.

I’m an optimist and positive-thinker by temperament, so I’m looking to see the best of Brexit (whilst not ignoring any problems) because I don’t wish negative outcomes on anyone.


----------



## KittenKong

Brexiter Sam Allerdyce moans about European players now needing work permits and visas.

Brexiter Roger Daltrey protests about the government's refusal to allow free movement of musicians.

Fish and meat merchants complaining about inability to export to the EU.

And they called us, "Remoaners"?

They won. They need to get over it!


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Brexiter Sam Allerdyce moans about European players now needing work permits and visas.
> 
> Brexiter Roger Daltrey protests about the government's refusal to allow free movement of musicians.
> 
> Fish and meat merchants complaining about inability to export to the EU.
> 
> And they called us, "Remoaners"?
> 
> They won. They need to get over it!


You reap what you sow.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Theres bound to be hitches , it all very last minute and also Covid. I wouldn't expect things to go smoothly.


The problem isn't Brexit, it's the Government's unilateral decision to opt out of the SM and CU. They'll learn soon enough as to why none EU countries like Norway and Switzerland are in the SM.

An overnight change as the result of the introduction of the Poll Tax didn't get any better either.


----------



## Lurcherlad

KittenKong said:


> Brexiter Sam Allerdyce moans about European players now needing work permits and visas.
> 
> Brexiter Roger Daltrey protests about the government's refusal to allow free movement of musicians.
> 
> Fish and meat merchants complaining about inability to export to the EU.
> 
> And they called us, "Remoaners"?
> 
> They won. They need to get over it!


I agree - and organise the necessary paperwork, just as they would for other countries.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> I agree - and organise the necessary paperwork, just as they would for other countries.


Yes but the paper work is different for each country in the EU, so they need the right paperwork for each country they are going though.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes but the paper work is different for each country in the EU, so they need the right paperwork for each country they are going though.


Of course.

Just as I needed to make sure I had all the correct paperwork to travel to Dominican Republic via Miami, USA ....


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> Of course.
> 
> Just as I needed to make sure I had all the correct paperwork to travel to Dominican Republic via Miami, USA ....


Just makes every journey they are doing EVERYDAY that much hard in they are going to different places all the time, not just for a few days holiday.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just makes every journey they are doing EVERYDAY that much hard in they are going to different places all the time, not just for a few days holiday.


But the principal is the same ... documents required and a system to follow to get them.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> But the principal is the same ... documents required and a system to follow to get them.


Not easy when your in a different country *everyday* to get it right all the time.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> Not easy when your in a different country *everyday* to get it right all the time.


We'll agree to disagree


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> We'll agree to disagree


OK


----------



## Jesthar

On a related note:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757931

*Brexit: Retailers warn they could burn goods stuck in EU*

UK retailers could abandon goods EU customers want to return, with some even thinking of burning them because it is cheaper than bringing them home.

They say the new EU trade deal has put costly duties on returns at a time when firms are already struggling.

Adam Mansell, boss of the UK Fashion & Textile Association (UKFT), said it's "cheaper for retailers to write off the cost of the goods than dealing with it all, either abandoning or potentially burning them."

Since 1 January, lots of European customers have been presented with an unexpected customs invoice when signing for goods they've ordered from the UK. These new customs charges are a result of the new EU trade deal with the UK.

"It's part of the ongoing small print of the deal," said Mr Mansell. "If you're in Germany and buying goods from the UK, you as the German customer are the importer bringing goods into the EU.

"You then have a courier company knocking on the door giving you a customs clearance invoice that you need to pay to receive your goods."

Many customers automatically reject the goods, refusing to pay the additional surcharges, leaving couriers to take them away.

About 30% of items bought online are returned, according to figures from Statista. That has meant large volumes of goods are heading back to the UK.

When goods arrive back at depots on the Continent, there is new customs paperwork to complete. "Export clearance charge, import charge arrival, import VAT charge and depending on the goods a rules of origin document as well," said Mr Mansell.

<snip>

And so on...

And the govenment response "We have encouraged companies new to dealing with customs declarations to appoint a specialist to deal with import and export declarations on their behalf" Fine and dandy if you're big enough to afford it! I'm in a small business support club, and many are having to abandon the EU market (which for many was a main growth area) because they can't afford the extra costs.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> About 30% of items bought online are returned, according to figures from Statista. That has meant large volumes of goods are heading back to the UK.
> 
> .


30% of items bought online are returned??

That can't be right.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> 30% of items bought online are returned??
> 
> That can't be right.


Seems about right to me, clothes that don't fit/lose their appeal when tried on are probably a good chunk of it. I'm a non-fashion-indusry-standard body shape, and rarely buy clothes online for that reason - a lot of them would have to go back!


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Seems about right to me, clothes that don't fit/lose their appeal when tried on are probably a good chunk of it. I'm a non-fashion-indusry-standard body shape, and rarely buy clothes online for that reason - a lot of them would have to go back!


But isn't that the point?

I wouldn't buy something unless I was pretty sure I wanted it, particularly from a foreign country. And that was before Brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> But isn't that the point?
> 
> I wouldn't buy something unless I was pretty sure I wanted it, particularly from a foreign country. And that was before Brexit.


Oh, I don't disagree. I've rarely returned anything I've bought online as I only buy stuff I'm sure I want.

But if stuff arrives and doesn't work, or didn't meet expectations of what it would do, then it would be going back. And if I did buy a lot of clothes online, I can guarantee you a lot would be going back as so few fit me properly due to having a non-standard body shape (classic hourglass) that the current fashion industry rarely caters for. I might like how it looks on the screen, but that doesn't mean it's going to fit me properly or look good on me.

Plus, most people aren't as circumspect as we are - many people have got used to buying stuff and sending it back if they don't like it.


----------



## Arny

MilleD said:


> 30% of items bought online are returned??
> 
> That can't be right.


I wouldn't buy from a foreign country if I thought I'd need to send it back but you have more rights buying online.


----------



## MilleD

Arny said:


> I wouldn't buy from a foreign country if I thought I'd need to send it back but you have more rights buying online.


Do we still?


----------



## Arny

MilleD said:


> Do we still?


Within the uk, yes.
I'm not sure re buying from the EU but I did a quick search and looks like export to the EU has to conform to the local law so its possible they would have to conform to our laws for imports where customer rights are concerned.


----------



## Magyarmum

I find it difficult to buy underwear in Hungary that I both like and fits me properly. 

I made sure I ordered a good supply from the UK before December 31st in order to avoid any Customs and VAT charges..


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Theres bound to be hitches


They are calling them ''teething problems'' (of which there are bound to be quite a few).


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> They are calling them *''teething problems'*' (of which there are bound to be quite a few).


More like toothache


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes but the paper work is different for each country in the EU, so they need the right paperwork for each country they are going though.


Like this?


----------



## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> Like this?
> 
> View attachment 460816


We're going to be seeing a lot of this unfortunately. And the only advice the government are offering is 'register a new company in the EU and transfer jobs there...'


----------



## MollySmith

Yes so it seems. @Jesthar


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> When was that picture taken?


 Probably during the war.


----------



## Calvine

MilleD said:


> 30% of items bought online are returned??
> 
> That can't be right.


Looking at the queues I see outside the post offices, I wouldn't be surprised . . .


----------



## Jesthar

Warning to anyone buying anything from the EU, if you use a Mastercard then your fees for purchasing in the EU are increasing massively. As things stand, this will also affect payments for most items bought on Amazon in the UK, as these payments are processed via its Luxembourg headquarters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55796426

*Credit card giant Mastercard is to raise the fees it charges EU merchants when UK cardholders buy goods and services from them online by fivefold.*

It has sparked fears that consumer prices could rise if merchants choose to pass on those costs, especially on items not available from UK retailers.

Transactions with airlines, hotels, car rentals and holiday firms based in the EU could all be affected.

Mastercard attributed the move to the UK's decision to leave the EU.

It said that only online sales would be affected and that "in practice" UK consumers would not notice the change.

The change affects the "interchange" fees Mastercard sets on behalf of big banks, so that its customers can use their payment networks.

From October, Mastercard said it would increase these fees to 1.5% on every transaction, up from 0.3%.

The EU introduced a cap on such fees in 2015 after concerns they pushed prices up for consumers and unfairly burdened companies.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Warning to anyone buying anything from the EU, if you use a Mastercard then your fees for purchasing in the EU are increasing massively. As things stand, this will also affect payments for most items bought on Amazon in the UK, as these payments are processed via its Luxembourg headquarters.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55796426
> 
> *Credit card giant Mastercard is to raise the fees it charges EU merchants when UK cardholders buy goods and services from them online by fivefold.*
> 
> It has sparked fears that consumer prices could rise if merchants choose to pass on those costs, especially on items not available from UK retailers.
> 
> Transactions with airlines, hotels, car rentals and holiday firms based in the EU could all be affected.
> 
> Mastercard attributed the move to the UK's decision to leave the EU.
> 
> It said that only online sales would be affected and that "in practice" UK consumers would not notice the change.
> 
> The change affects the "interchange" fees Mastercard sets on behalf of big banks, so that its customers can use their payment networks.
> 
> From October, Mastercard said it would increase these fees to 1.5% on every transaction, up from 0.3%.
> 
> The EU introduced a cap on such fees in 2015 after concerns they pushed prices up for consumers and unfairly burdened companies.


"Some people might put this change down to Brexit, but it is actually just greed. It is well within the power of the card schemes to make merchants' lives easy and keep things operating as they were pre-2021," said Joel Gladwin, head of policy at the Coalition for a Digital Economy, which represents British start-ups."


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> "Some people might put this change down to Brexit, but it is actually just greed. It is well within the power of the card schemes to make merchants' lives easy and keep things operating as they were pre-2021," said Joel Gladwin, head of policy at the Coalition for a Digital Economy, which represents British start-ups."


Oh, I don't disagree. I just suspect we are going to be seeing a fair bit of taking advantage of the loss of various regulations that have ot been passed into UK law, and in the case of financial things I also doubt BoJo and co will want to do anything about it since it's often their mates making the profit off it...


----------



## kimthecat

A little bit of good news . My favourite chocolate. !

https://www.mtdmfg.com/news/cadburys-moves-production-of-its-dairy-milk-bars-from-europe-to-the-uk/
Cadbury is bringing production of its iconic Dairy Milk chocolate bar back from Europe to the UK following a £15 million investment at its original site in Bournville.

Production of 12,000 tonnes of chocolate - equivalent to 125m bars - will be relocated from Germany and other sites in Europe to Birmingham from next year said Mondelez. It was formed after Cadbury's former owner Kraft demerged its grocery business in 2011.

The shift will mean most Dairy Milk will be made at the Birmingham site from next year and will add to the 35,000 tonnes made at the factory in 2020.


----------



## Happy Paws2

May be we'll the taste back, I hate what they have do to it.:Yuck


----------



## JANICE199

*I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


----------



## Blackadder

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


Personally I haven't noticed anything different but then I'm just one of the "little guys", not big business. I was more affected by Covid than Brexit.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


All I'll say is Yes and I'll leave it there!!


----------



## MollySmith

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


I voted to stay in so yes. Regardless of vaccines, absolutely yes. Too many businesses and owners affected.


----------



## Pawscrossed

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


We were ill equipped to make such a big decision and lied to from the start. The state of the world now has proved how isolated we are - friendless on all sides and an embarrassment. We should never had been given the opportunity to vote. Yes, we should have stayed.


----------



## kimthecat

Blackadder said:


> Personally I haven't noticed anything different but then I'm just one of the "little guys", not big business. I was more affected by Covid than Brexit.


Same here.


----------



## rona

A little difficult to judge with the covid debacle, however I'm glad we were out through that and still feel it's for the best in the long run.

The EU have certainly showed themselves for what they are through all this! Not pleasant


----------



## Lurcherlad

@JANICE199 said "*I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU?"*

Nope.


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> We were ill equipped to make such a big decision and lied to from the start. The state of the world now has proved how isolated we are - friendless on all sides and an embarrassment. We should never had been given the opportunity to vote. Yes, we should have stayed.


I dont think countries are friends with each other , they are Allies who co-operate with each other for a purpose.
Im sure countries will be our Allies when they want something. We thought America was our friend when Bush wanted us to invade Afghanistan , creepy Blair sucking up to him. Now , we're not useful to them and Biden said I'm Irish in response to the BBC. That sums it up.


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> I dont think countries are friends with each other , they are Allies who co-operate with each other for a purpose.
> Im sure countries will be our Allies when they want something. We thought America was our friend when Bush wanted us to invade Afghanistan , creepy Blair sucking up to him. Now , we're not useful to them and Biden said I'm Irish in response to the BBC. That sums it up.


With the greatest respect to you, that is my opinion. I didn't mean playground buddies but allies and we did that ourselves. Thanks to Boris and Farage.


----------



## mrs phas

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


Personal opinion only
For ease of travel, food, tradespeople both skilled and unskilled (especially crop picking etc) yes
For getting vaccines at the front of the queue, no


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> With the greatest respect to you, that is my opinion..


Yes of course.  Im not personally worried by our apparent lack of Allies, we are still part of Nato for example and circumstances change all the time.


----------



## Guest

All I am going to say is look at the mess the EU got themselves in with the vaccines and the UK just ploughed on and got vaccines and gave them out.

I am otherwise keeping my opinions to myself on this topic :Muted


----------



## Blackadder

oldeecatowner said:


> I am otherwise keeping my opinions to myself on this topic :Muted


I've got to ask, why?


----------



## kimthecat

Perhaps a sensible idea with this type of threads


----------



## MollySmith

I don’t think the vaccines is a good example, but more the thing people remember lately, instead of the ‘promises’ made by Johnson and others. Selective memory is a wonderful thing, as is hindsight and that’s me out of this thread, it gets us nowhere. The past is where it was and only good for learning from and we begin again now. One could say nothing but cliques and headaches for mods come from this.


----------



## daveos

Im kind of glad we left especially after the vaccine fiasco remember macron spreading rumours etc, But I'm not so sure of our relationship with USA at the moment I think we need to have a possible European joint armed forces whether in EU or not because I don't think we can rely on support from US anymore I bet China have plans for Taiwan now with Biden in charge.


----------



## Cleo38

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm curious, is there anyone that now wishes we had stayed in the EU? *


Fleetingly when I realised I may not be able to purchase a jacket I wanted for dog sports that came from the Netherlands!!! 

I voted to remain purely because things hadn't been thought though enough on so many issues (didn't take a political genius to work that one out!) but after all the bickering & nit picking (by both sides) I haven't really been that affected by it but then I suppose it has been a strange time what with the pandemic affecting the world.

Personally despite my initial vote I am sort of glad we left.


----------



## kimthecat

I regret the divide it caused between leavers and remainers and all the nastiness that ensued. I did wish at one point that we hadnt had the vote in the first place. It was too close to call for my liking.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Regardless of the outcome of brexit, I still think it's incredibly ridiculous that both NI and Scotland voted to remain and were effectively forced to leave. Over 60% of Scotland voted to remain and yet we were dragged into England's decision. I am aware the UK is "united" and so the decision is from a sum of all countries but when a decision this large happens and half of the countries in the UK vote the opposite how is this fair? I am so glad Scotland has control over some aspects of their politics but I feel the divide over brexit should have been taken more seriously.

Also, I think the voting patterns need to be addressed. Why were, on average, those who voted to remain of a higher educational attainment level than those who voted to leave? I am not a statistical analyst but I feel the demographics of voters should be of more importance as these patterns don't happen randomly. The link between poverty, lack of educational attainment, unemployment, and voting to leave makes me personally feel that these people were under the impression that brexit would solve their problems (and they were sold this lie by the government too). Choosing your vote should not be out of desperation it should be an educated decision.

I voted to remain so I don't regret my choice. When Scotland gains independence, I hope they consider rejoining the EU, but that is a topic for a different thread.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> I regret the divide it caused between leavers and remainers and all the nastiness that ensued. I did wish at one point that we hadnt had the vote in the first place. It was too close to call for my liking.


I was shocked at the nastiness that followed the decision. Even from friends I thought would know better. Really was an eye opener in some instances


----------



## HarlequinCat

bmr10 said:


> Regardless of the outcome of brexit, I still think it's incredibly ridiculous that both NI and Scotland voted to remain and were effectively forced to leave. Over 60% of Scotland voted to remain and yet we were dragged into England's decision. I am aware the UK is "united" and so the decision is from a sum of all countries but when a decision this large happens and half of the countries in the UK vote the opposite how is this fair? I am so glad Scotland has control over some aspects of their politics but I feel the divide over brexit should have been taken more seriously.
> 
> Also, I think the voting patterns need to be addressed. Why were, on average, those who voted to remain of a higher educational attainment level than those who voted to leave? I am not a statistical analyst but I feel the demographics of voters should be of more importance as these patterns don't happen randomly. The link between poverty, lack of educational attainment, unemployment, and voting to leave makes me personally feel that these people were under the impression that brexit would solve their problems (and they were sold this lie by the government too). Choosing your vote should not be out of desperation it should be an educated decision.
> 
> I voted to remain so I don't regret my choice. When Scotland gains independence, I hope they consider rejoining the EU, but that is a topic for a different thread.


Why should who voted what matter? Voting is a personal choice. I know people who graduated at university voted leave. Just like I know a fair few remainers who were not educated and on lower incomes, and voted like that because they didn't want instability to cost them their jobs.

This is a very elitist point of view. I hope you are not suggesting that only the well educated and well off should be allowed to vote on such important matters......
Or that because someone is not formally educated they are unable to reason things out for themselves.


----------



## teddylion

I can see the argument from both sides, but there seems to be a very low opinion about Leave voters. I work in education and would often wince when I heard them described as 'knuckle draggers' etc.

I would then tell them about my plasterer, with whom I spent several hours discussing the origins of the EU and how much he distrusted them, he knew an awful lot more than my colleagues who seemed only to parrot the Guardian to be honest. Being 'educated' doesn't mean you're any more intelligent than the working class.


----------



## daveos

bmr10 said:


> Regardless of the outcome of brexit, I still think it's incredibly ridiculous that both NI and Scotland voted to remain and were effectively forced to leave. Over 60% of Scotland voted to remain and yet we were dragged into England's decision. I am aware the UK is "united" and so the decision is from a sum of all countries but when a decision this large happens and half of the countries in the UK vote the opposite how is this fair? I am so glad Scotland has control over some aspects of their politics but I feel the divide over brexit should have been taken more seriously.
> 
> Also, I think the voting patterns need to be addressed. Why were, on average, those who voted to remain of a higher educational attainment level than those who voted to leave? I am not a statistical analyst but I feel the demographics of voters should be of more importance as these patterns don't happen randomly. The link between poverty, lack of educational attainment, unemployment, and voting to leave makes me personally feel that these people were under the impression that brexit would solve their problems (and they were sold this lie by the government too). Choosing your vote should not be out of desperation it should be an educated decision.
> 
> I voted to remain so I don't regret my choice. When Scotland gains independence, I hope they consider rejoining the EU, but that is a topic for a different thread.


Dint know Scotland is having a referendom and according to polls remain is in the lead.


----------



## £54etgfb6

HarlequinCat said:


> Why should who voted what matter? Voting is a personal choice. I know people who graduated at university voted leave. Just like I know a fair few remainers who were not educated and on lower incomes, and voted like that because they didn't want instability to cost them their jobs.
> 
> This is a very elitist point of view. I hope you are not suggesting that only the well educated and well off should be allowed to vote on such important matters......
> Or that because someone is not formally educated they are unable to reason things out for themselves.


I was not suggesting that at all, and I apologise if it has been interpreted that I was. My point was that voting patterns exist and are studied by statistical analytics due to their importance. They help to explain the reasons _why_ people have voted for/against something without asking the individuals themselves. My point was that these statistics should be taken more seriously by those that do not study them. The link between the overwhelming promises of better employment/more jobs due to less immigration as a result of brexit, and the lower (on average) household income of individuals who voted to leave vs to remain is not something that should be ignored in my opinion. To me (and this is only my opinion) it feels like those dealing with poverty/unemployment voted in hopes that their choice would improve their situation when in reality any improvement in their situation is most likely not due to brexit. The ability of politicians to target vulnerable demographics, lie to them, and then keep those vulnerable demographics right where they are without helping them at all is not something I admire. These links exist for a reason and while there are anomalies these patterns should be questioned. I have never, and will never, feel that those who attain a higher level of education should be the preferred demographic for voting. I believe anyone from any background should be given the choice to vote. I voted at 16 when a large portion of my country was baulking at the prospect of secondary school pupils being allowed to vote. At that point, I did not have a qualification to my name.


----------



## £54etgfb6

daveos said:


> Dint know Scotland is having a referendom and according to polls remain is in the lead.


As far as I am aware, unless something miraculous happens there will not be a second referendum for a while. My wording of "*When* Scotland gains independence" is based purely on my own personal confidence that at some point in the future it will happen. It is not based on any statistical data, just my gut feeling.


----------



## Cleo38

bmr10 said:


> I was not suggesting that at all, and I apologise if it has been interpreted that I was. My point was that voting patterns exist and are studied by statistical analytics due to their importance. They help to explain the reasons _why_ people have voted for/against something without asking the individuals themselves. My point was that these statistics should be taken more seriously by those that do not study them. The link between the overwhelming promises of better employment/more jobs due to less immigration as a result of brexit, and the lower (on average) household income of individuals who voted to leave vs to remain is not something that should be ignored in my opinion. To me (and this is only my opinion) it feels like those dealing with poverty/unemployment voted in hopes that their choice would improve their situation when in reality any improvement in their situation is most likely not due to brexit. The ability of politicians to target vulnerable demographics, lie to them, and then keep those vulnerable demographics right where they are without helping them at all is not something I admire. These links exist for a reason and while there are anomalies these patterns should be questioned. I have never, and will never, feel that those who attain a higher level of education should be the preferred demographic for voting. I believe anyone from any background should be given the choice to vote. I voted at 16 when a large portion of my country was baulking at the prospect of secondary school pupils being allowed to vote. At that point, I did not have a qualification to my name.


Have you got references for these figures? Not being sarky but genuinely interested

I agree that statistics should be examined & interpreted. I agree to an extent regarding voting leave for some people & I also think alot of people in the UK did (do?) have concerns over immigration (not saying this was a defining factor in their decision tho) but they have been ignored or shouted down. Maybe this was their only way of having a voice

However, there are many reasons people voted for Brexit & they are just as complex as those who voted to remain. In many discussions on here it had been noted how many farmers would be losing out, how their lives would be made more difficult, etc by Brexit yet I live in a farming community & most farmers I know voted to leave


----------



## MilleD

bmr10 said:


> As far as I am aware, unless something miraculous happens there will not be a second referendum for a while. My wording of "*When* Scotland gains independence" is based purely on my own personal confidence that at some point in the future it will happen. It is not based on any statistical data, just my gut feeling.


So the "lies" told about Brexit were believed because people were "uneducated", but it's all good with the fairytales on how Scotland could afford to be independent?


----------



## Cleo38

MilleD said:


> So the "lies" told about Brexit were believed because people were "uneducated", but it's all good with the fairytales on how Scotland could afford to be independent?


Yes, that's what I've never understood!


----------



## Siskin

MilleD said:


> So the "lies" told about Brexit were believed because people were "uneducated", but it's all good with the fairytales on how Scotland could afford to be independent?


If Scotland did gain independence I'm not sure they would be welcomed with open arms by the EU as they are more likely to be a drain on the EU and not be paying much if anything in. I'm not sure why Scotland thinks it can be independent and maintain the standard of living they currently have especially when there will be less requirement for oil in the future

I voted leave and continue to be happy and content with that decision.


----------



## £54etgfb6

Cleo38 said:


> Have you got references for these figures? Not being sarky but genuinely interested
> 
> I agree that statistics should be examined & interpreted. I agree to an extent regarding voting leave for some people & I also think alot of people in the UK did (do?) have concerns over immigration (not saying this was a defining factor in their decision tho) but they have been ignored or shouted down. Maybe this was their only way of having a voice
> 
> However, there are many reasons people voted for Brexit & they are just as complex as those who voted to remain. In many discussions on here it had been noted how many farmers would be losing out, how their lives would be made more difficult, etc by Brexit yet I live in a farming community & most farmers I know voted to leave


Of course, here are a few. I am not sure if they are available to read to those without access as I use my university login when searching journal databases. If you are not interested in statistics the summary/conclusion is a good place to start. In general, from my reading, it tends to be that individuals of caucasian descent, higher age group, lower educational attainment, and possessing a lower annual income voted to leave. There are other trends but those are a few.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268016302701?via=ihub

https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article/32/92/601/4459491

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

Of course, all of these articles and my own posts clearly state that these are potential reasons and are not definitive. They are also broad interpretations of a large group of people and once again there will be anomalies. People will have their own individual reasons for voting but there have been, and always will be demographic trends. I think these trends should be taken more seriously by the public as it may be that politicians target certain demographics and promise things that may not be fulfilled in the future.


----------



## Cleo38

bmr10 said:


> Of course, here are a few. I am not sure if they are available to read to those without access as I use my university login when searching journal databases. If you are not interested in statistics the summary/conclusion is a good place to start. In general, from my reading, it tends to be that individuals of caucasian descent, higher age group, lower educational attainment, and possessing a lower annual income voted to leave. There are other trends but those are a few.
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268016302701?via=ihub
> 
> https://academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article/32/92/601/4459491
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320
> 
> Of course, all of these articles and my own posts clearly state that these are potential reasons and are not definitive. They are also broad interpretations of a large group of people and once again there will be anomalies. People will have their own individual reasons for voting but there have been, and always will be demographic trends. I think these trends should be taken more seriously by the public as it may be that politicians target certain demographics and promise things that may not be fulfilled in the future.


Thanks, I'll have a look.

I agree, but as I posted previously concerns over immigration were ignored by politicians & those with the concerns were accused on being bigots or racists (I still think of that moment with Gordon Brown!) so they had no voice on this issue until the referendum.

Politicians are all a bunch of liars anyway tbh. They always have been & always will, I don't know why that still comes as a surprise to anyone. I hate the lot of them.


----------



## kimthecat

bmr10 said:


> Also, I think the voting patterns need to be addressed. Why were, on average, those who voted to remain of a higher educational attainment level than those who voted to leave? I am not a statistical analyst but I feel the demographics of voters should be of more importance as these patterns don't happen randomly. The link between poverty, lack of educational attainment, unemployment, and voting to leave makes me personally feel that these people were under the impression that brexit would solve their problems (and they were sold this lie by the government too). Choosing your vote should not be out of desperation it should be an educated decision.


 so what do you suggest to remedy this?


----------



## stuaz

With the "virus fiasco" in the EU, couldn't countries do there own thing anyway? So even if we were in the EU we could have done what we did anyway.

Didn't Hungary do there own thing? (@Magyarmum for the knowledge on this maybe).


----------



## £54etgfb6

kimthecat said:


> so what do you suggest to remedy this?


Oh, my post was not a "this is an issue and here is the solution". It was merely that I feel disadvantaged populations were preyed upon during the run-up to the brexit vote. I know one person with serious health issues who bought into the claims that NHS waiting times would decrease due to fewer immigrants and currently, in her area, nothing has changed (even prior to covid). If anything, waiting times will increase due to a lack of doctors/junior doctors as a large portion are foreign and brexit makes things more difficult/unappealing for them to practice/study here. Regardless, the aim of my post was to say that these voting patterns exist and I feel that the public would benefit in being aware of them and being aware that certain political groups will target various vulnerable demographics as you are more likely to trust/have hope in someone's word if you are desperate for a solution.

Additionally, it was just to open up a curious discussion on _why_ these voting patterns exist. For example, why did Scotland vote to remain whereas Wales voted to leave? What could be the potential reasons for this? Clearly, that has not happened but I personally like questioning things even when no answer is to be found.


----------



## Siskin

stuaz said:


> With the "virus fiasco" in the EU, couldn't countries do there own thing anyway? So even if we were in the EU we could have done what we did anyway.
> 
> Didn't Hungary do there own thing? (@Magyarmum for the knowledge on this maybe).


They did, and the EU plan to fine them or something


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> They did, and the EU plan to fine them or something


Doubt that they will though!


----------



## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> Oh, my post was not a "this is an issue and here is the solution". It was merely that I feel disadvantaged populations were preyed upon during the run-up to the brexit vote. I know one person with serious health issues who bought into the claims that NHS waiting times would decrease due to fewer immigrants and currently, in her area, nothing has changed (even prior to covid). If anything, waiting times will increase due to a lack of doctors/junior doctors as a large portion are foreign and brexit makes things more difficult/unappealing for them to practice/study here. Regardless, the aim of my post was to say that these voting patterns exist and I feel that the public would benefit in being aware of them and being aware that certain political groups will target various vulnerable demographics as you are more likely to trust/have hope in someone's word if you are desperate for a solution.
> 
> Additionally, it was just to open up a curious discussion on _why_ these voting patterns exist. For example, why did Scotland vote to remain whereas Wales voted to leave? What could be the potential reasons for this? Clearly, that has not happened but I personally like questioning things even when no answer is to be found.


I just came back to say thank you for providing well thought out replies and responses that you've clearly gone to an effort to provide. Clearly as you say it's not a problem and solution otherwise we'd all be far more able to see the bias and lies of politicians. I appreciate anyone who provides research and doesn't resort to hyperbole and or the Daily Mail (probably the same thing).


----------



## rona

stuaz said:


> With the "virus fiasco" in the EU, couldn't countries do there own thing anyway? So even if we were in the EU we could have done what we did anyway.
> 
> Didn't Hungary do there own thing? (@Magyarmum for the knowledge on this maybe).





stuaz said:


> Doubt that they will though!


Not really the point about the vaccines though.

The EU failed and then blamed everyone else. told countries within that they had to follow EU vaccine protocol and not source themselves, then threatened their own members for looking out for their own citizens. 
Not only that, but they also threatened other countries and the very businesses that were trying to save their lives

At first I thought it was just press talk, but I watched the statements coming from EU HQ and could not believe my ears. Talk about trying to cover your own arse


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> With the "virus fiasco" in the EU, couldn't countries do there own thing anyway? So even if we were in the EU we could have done what we did anyway.
> 
> Didn't Hungary do there own thing? (@Magyarmum for the knowledge on this maybe).


, 
There is provision in the EU rules that during an emergency, countries can make their own decisions which is what Hungary did. They independently purchased vaccine from Russia and China and started their vaccination programme a day ahead of the rest of the EU. (apart from I think Germany)?

On August 1st 2021 Hungary started giving the 3rd booster jab to anyone who wants it and received their 2nd jab four or more months before. We were allowed to choose which vaccine we wanted. I chose Chinese Sinopharm for my first two vaccinations which I had in March and for my third jab at the beginning of August was given a choice of Moderna or Pfizer, but due to my age was recommended Pfizer, which is what I had.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-hungary-vaccine-idUSKBN295167


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just found this...
Firms from a number of sectors in the UK have been battling with a supply chain crisis due to a shortage of lorry drivers. They blame post-Brexit EU immigration rules, 

Business groups representing the retail and transport sectors have been calling for the government to reverse its decision not to grant temporary work visas to drivers from the EU.


----------



## Jesthar

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just found this...
> Firms from a number of sectors in the UK have been battling with a supply chain crisis due to a shortage of lorry drivers. They blame post-Brexit EU immigration rules,
> 
> Business groups representing the retail and transport sectors have been calling for the government to reverse its decision not to grant temporary work visas to drivers from the EU.


That's been going on for several months, hence the weird gaps on supermarket shelves we've been experiencing. We're talking over a hundred thousand drivers short, too, so it's not going to be a quick fix. Training HGV drivers takes a long time and costs £3,500, and it's not a very attractive career option for a lot of people - long hours, days away from home.

And it looks like the government have refused the visa plea. There is some good news, though, it looks they are going to allow HGV qualified prisoners out on day release instead...

In the meantime, increased transport costs are set to increase retail prices significantly in the run up to Christmas, and probably beyond. Paired with the import price increases for both raw materials and goods, it's time to tighten the belts again.


----------



## stuaz

rona said:


> Not really the point about the vaccines though.
> 
> The EU failed and then blamed everyone else. told countries within that they had to follow EU vaccine protocol and not source themselves, then threatened their own members for looking out for their own citizens.
> Not only that, but they also threatened other countries and the very businesses that were trying to save their lives
> 
> At first I thought it was just press talk, but I watched the statements coming from EU HQ and could not believe my ears. Talk about trying to cover your own arse


oh I totally agree. What they did and how they acted afterwards was wrong, I was just pointing out that we could have done our own thing and probably would have if we're still in the EU.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> oh I totally agree. What they did and how they acted afterwards was wrong, I was just pointing out that we could have done our own thing and probably would have if we're still in the EU.


And no doubt would have given the UK a load of flak like they did to Hungary..


----------



## kimthecat

We wo


Happy Paws2 said:


> Just found this...
> Firms from a number of sectors in the UK have been battling with a supply chain crisis due to a shortage of lorry drivers. They blame post-Brexit EU immigration rules,
> 
> Business groups representing the retail and transport sectors have been calling for the government to reverse its decision not to grant temporary work visas to drivers from the EU.


The GOV should allow temporary work visas. ! It s absurd not to. I dont know if or how Covid is affecting this situation .
Apparently there is a shortage of hospitality staff due to them leaving and taking jobs as drivers with Amazon. etc


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> The GOV should allow temporary work visas. ! It s absurd not to. I dont know if or how Covid is affecting this situation .
> Apparently there is a shortage of hospitality staff due to them leaving and taking jobs as drivers with Amazon. etc


If anything, I suspect Covid has been masking the situation. The sudden need for increased home delivery of all kinds meant that slow delivery times could be attributed to shortages caused by unexpected demand, and the mass shutdown of the hospitality industry meant the loss of the huge part of their workforce made up by cheap EU staff (and the subsequent long term price increases replacing them with UK employees will require) hasn't had the chance to be really noticed yet.

The GOV did allow temporary work visas for farm workers, strangely. It's almost like a lot of their rich mates are landowners...


----------



## MollySmith

Agree @Jesthar

There was more here in June this year just before the EU Settlement Scheme closed on 30th June citing "_Official figures from March suggest a million people left the UK in the space of a year."_

Further to this
"_For Europeans, the biggest reason to live and work in the UK ended on the day the country voted for Brexit, said Mark Laurie, director of the Nationwide Caterers Association. "The British press and the country has become so hostile to EU workers. When once someone could move to the UK and feel welcome and be treated equally, it's no longer like that."
_
Here's the link to the article from which I've quoted which is full of quotes from industry bodies in hospitality, education and trade all citing Brexit as the root cause, and Covid as a mask. 
https://www.bigissue.com/latest/emp...ing-will-leave-uk-industries-in-total-crisis/


----------



## rona

stuaz said:


> oh I totally agree. What they did and how they acted afterwards was wrong, I was just pointing out that we could have done our own thing and probably would have if we're still in the EU.


But stupidly, we would not have been allowed to buy the vaccine that was made in this country!!

Just because the EU had ordered some


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> But stupidly, we would not have been allowed to buy the vaccine that was made in this country!!
> 
> Just because the EU had ordered some


That was disgusting how their actions were. People were panicking & dying yet they seemed more concerned with bickering & point scoring


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> oh I totally agree. What they did and how they acted afterwards was wrong,* I was just pointing out that we could have done our own thing and probably would have if we're still in the EU*.


I'm sure we would have.
Not every country follows EU rules all the time, you have to do the best for your own and for once I think BJ would have.

Just to add, they couldn't stop us getting it as it was made here.


----------



## Magyarmum

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm sure we would have.
> Not every country follows EU rules all the time, you have to do the best for your own and for once I think BJ would have.
> 
> Just to add, they couldn't stop us getting it as it was made here.


True that not every country follows the EU rules all the time but the second a member country "steps out of line" they're threatened with all kinds of dire consequences by the powers that be in Brussels


----------



## stuaz

Magyarmum said:


> True that not every country follows the EU rules all the time but the second a member country "steps out of line" they're threatened with all kinds of dire consequences by the powers that be in Brussels


Although when the UK was in the EU it always was a little bit "one foot in one foot out" never truly embracing some aspects. Maybe a little bit of island mentality played a part in that, I dunno.


----------



## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just found this...
> Firms from a number of sectors in the UK have been battling with a supply chain crisis due to a shortage of lorry drivers. They blame post-Brexit EU immigration rules,
> 
> Business groups representing the retail and transport sectors have been calling for the government to reverse its decision not to grant temporary work visas to drivers from the EU.


A few lorry drivers have started to speak up and this example from FB from a driver in response to food supply makes the good point that everything functioned okay - stockpiling aside- during lockdown and therefore does show it's a Brexit event.

The trouble seems to be that it's gone wrong but not badly enough to make anyone who voted leave protest or say it wasn't good, and bad enough to piss off remainers but not so bad we're suffering to the levels we had predicted.... yet.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> A few lorry drivers have started to speak up and this example from FB from a driver in response to food supply makes the good point that everything functioned okay - stockpiling aside- during lockdown and therefore does show it's a Brexit event.
> 
> The trouble seems to be that it's gone wrong but not badly enough to make anyone who voted leave protest or say it wasn't good, and bad enough to piss off remainers but not so bad we're suffering to the levels we had predicted.... yet.
> View attachment 474968


What rot.............Lorry drivers have to take tests every few years and those tests are running dreadfully behind because of Covid. Perfectly capable lorry drivers are being stopped from driving because of this law. Of course, Covid also had an impact on any new lorry drivers as they weren't able to take tests either,


----------



## rona

Anyway, Blood tests are now being limited due to shortage of vials. If that's to do with lorry drivers, I'm sure it will be sorted very soon


----------



## HarlequinCat

rona said:


> What rot.............Lorry drivers have to take tests every few years and those tests are running dreadfully behind because of Covid. Perfectly capable lorry drivers are being stopped from driving because of this law. Of course, Covid also had an impact on any new lorry drivers as they weren't able to take tests either,


Yep I had heard the test to become a new driver is delayed because of covid. My OH was contemplating it because he thinks it would suit him and the pay was good but he's put it off for a bit because there aren't any tests, so he's not going to spend money on a course until the tests are back up and running.

Facebook posts need to be taken with a pinch of salt. So much misinformation on there


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> What rot.............Lorry drivers have to take tests every few years and those tests are running dreadfully behind because of Covid. Perfectly capable lorry drivers are being stopped from driving because of this law. Of course, Covid also had an impact on any new lorry drivers as they weren't able to take tests either,


I don't think they do. Lorry drivers must complete 35 hours of additional training in every five-year period following the award of their Driver CPC, but I can't find anything saying that they have to retake the whole CPC test. Unless you have information that says otherwise?

And yes, covid has led to a backlog of tests, which hasn't helped. But if the industry are saying an outflux of EU drivers is still the biggest current factor, why should we doubt them?



rona said:


> Anyway, Blood tests are now being limited due to shortage of vials. If that's to do with lorry drivers, I'm sure it will be sorted very soon


According to the official statement by the company that makes them, they are having "continued transportation challenges", including port and transport capacity, air freight capacity and UK border challenges.


----------



## StormyThai

Jesthar said:


> I don't think they do. Lorry drivers must complete 35 hours of additional training in every five-year period following the award of their Driver CPC, but I can't find anything saying that they have to retake the whole CPC test. Unless you have information that says otherwise?


That is all I can find too...unless the driver is over 45, because at that age they need to take medicals to keep driving.


----------



## Dimwit

stuaz said:


> With the "virus fiasco" in the EU, couldn't countries do there own thing anyway? So even if we were in the EU we could have done what we did anyway.


Yes. The vaccine response in this country had nothing to do with Brexit. The MHRA decision was in accordance with EU legislation which allows member states to grant authorisisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of disease. Any other country in Europe could have done the same. Similarly, EU member states are not obliged to take part in the EU vaccine procurement scheme so any other country could have done as we did and purchase vaccines independently.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> I don't think they do. Lorry drivers must complete 35 hours of additional training in every five-year period following the award of their Driver CPC, but I can't find anything saying that they have to retake the whole CPC test. Unless you have information that says otherwise?
> 
> According to the official statement by the company that makes them, they are having "continued transportation challenges", including port and transport capacity, air freight capacity and UK border challenges.


Ok, The training every five years is holding up drivers. It's a legal requirement which hasn't been removed as far as I can see


----------



## Magyarmum

Dimwit said:


> Yes. The vaccine response in this country had nothing to do with Brexit. The MHRA decision was in accordance with EU legislation which allows member states to grant authorisisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of disease. Any other country in Europe could have done the same. Similarly, EU member states are not obliged to take part in the EU vaccine procurement scheme so any other country could have done as we did and purchase vaccines independently.


Which is exactly what Hungary did.


----------



## rona

Dimwit said:


> Yes. The vaccine response in this country had nothing to do with Brexit. The MHRA decision was in accordance with EU legislation which allows member states to grant authorisisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of disease. Any other country in Europe could have done the same. Similarly, EU member states are not obliged to take part in the EU vaccine procurement scheme so any other country could have done as we did and purchase vaccines independently.


They couldn't do the same as us because they weren't allowed to buy any that the EU were trying to procure


----------



## Jesthar

StormyThai said:


> That is all I can find too...unless the driver is over 45, because at that age they need to take medicals to keep driving.


And there's another aspect that rarely gets talked about - the British HGV driver populaton is not, on the whole, a young one, and up until Brexit the increasing shortages caused by retirement were being largely made up for by EU drivers. Now firms are trying to tempt retired drivers back on the road, but that's not going to last forever...


----------



## rona

Found this which explains the training and medical issues
https://www.24-7staffing.co.uk/blog...r-lorry-driver-cpc-training-and-other-changes

Seems it's not the traing holding things up but the medicals..............for obvious reasons


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Found this which explains the training and medical issues
> https://www.24-7staffing.co.uk/blog...r-lorry-driver-cpc-training-and-other-changes
> 
> Seems it's not the traing holding things up but the medicals..............for obvious reasons


I know as well there's been a lot of problems with EU lorry drivers as well due to the changes in the EU legislation related to working hours. I don't know but I wouldn't have thought this would help the overall situation?

https://trans.info/en/new-drivers-h...british-truckers-driving-in-the-eu-too-196392

*New drivers' hours' regulations in the EU from tomorrow. It applies to British truckers driving in the EU, too*


Trans.INFO

19.08.2020
5.2k










The British Department of Transport reminds hauliers that EU regulations on driving hours and drivers' hours are changing from tomorrow, 20 August.

*Driving hours*
A driver will be allowed to exceed the daily or weekly driving time by a maximum of one hour to reach his base or place of residence in order to take a weekly regular and reduced rest period. However, the condition is that the extra hour of driving must not jeopardise road safety.

Any extended working time must be compensated by an equivalent period of rest, taken in one go before the end of the third working week following the week in which the extended driving took place.

All driving that drivers do under EU rules must be recorded on a tachograph.

*Changes to EU driving rules from 20 August*
The new rules include:


a requirement for drivers' to 'return home' every 4 weeks
a ban on taking regular weekly rest periods in the driver's vehicle
a new definition of 'non-commercial carriage'
more flexibility on the scheduling of the rest periods for some drivers on international carriage of goods
new provisions for rests and breaks for drivers when journeys involve transport by ferry or by rail
a new requirement to keep a full record of all other work.
Download Trans.INFO's detailed guidance on the changes now.



Tags
#45-hour rest#drivers#drivers' hours#european union
comments
0 comments









*Haulier fined €14,500 for multiple tachograph breaches*


Gregor Gowans

Journalist Trans.INFO

12.07.2021
1.4k


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Found this which explains the training and medical issues
> https://www.24-7staffing.co.uk/blog...r-lorry-driver-cpc-training-and-other-changes
> 
> Seems it's not the traing holding things up but the medicals..............for obvious reasons


To quote the article:

_"Because of the pandemic and pressure on the health services, legislation was amended and the requirement for a medical in order to renew a licence was waived. Instead, drivers have been issued a one year extension by making a self-declaration of health.

This waiver cannot be used twice, and currently the representative group Logistics UK is working with the DVSA to see if a waiver extension is necessary.

In the meantime, the DVSA is issuing reminders to drivers 56 days in advance of a licence expiring, so drivers should contact their GP surgery as soon as possible to ensure they can book a medical ahead of the renewal date."
_
So allowances have been made for the pandemic.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> To quote the article:
> 
> _"Because of the pandemic and pressure on the health services, legislation was amended and the requirement for a medical in order to renew a licence was waived. Instead, drivers have been issued a one year extension by making a self-declaration of health.
> 
> This waiver cannot be used twice, and currently the representative group Logistics UK is working with the DVSA to see if a waiver extension is necessary.
> 
> In the meantime, the DVSA is issuing reminders to drivers 56 days in advance of a licence expiring, so drivers should contact their GP surgery as soon as possible to ensure they can book a medical ahead of the renewal date."
> _
> So allowances have been made for the pandemic.


That year would be up for many and could explain some of the recent problems. Have you tried to get to see a doc even if you are ill?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> That year would be up for many and could explain some of the recent problems. Have you tried to get to see a doc even if you are ill?


Fractured my ankle a few months ago. Got no complaints about the NHS at all, had a great experience


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Anyway, Blood tests are now being limited due to shortage of vials. If that's to do with lorry drivers, I'm sure it will be sorted very soon


Yes and the shortage of vials is due to the unprecedented demand for blood tests due to Covid.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Fractured my ankle a few months ago. Got no complaints about the NHS at all, had a great experience


Sorry to hear that. How is it now, not causing any problems I hope. Ive had problems with both my ankles due to arthritis and went for x rays yesterday . Ive had excellent treatment from the NHS.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Sorry to hear that. How is it now, not causing any problems I hope. Ive had problems with both my ankles due to arthritis and went for x rays yesterday . Ive had excellent treatment from the NHS.


It's doing very well, thank you  - it was only a very minor fracture, I walked (well, hobbled!) on it for a week before suspecting it was more than just a bad sprain (having never had a sprain before). Bone is A-OK, it's the muscles and ligaments that take the real time to fix. Thankfully I was staying with family (and working from home there, plus had the cats with me!) when it happened, so I've just stayed on and not really had to worry about not being able to drive for a couple of months


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Yes and the shortage of vials is due to the unprecedented demand for blood tests due to Covid.


Also, there's a huge shortage of raw materials for packaging, Glass, steel, plastic even cardboard. That can't be helping the supply chain


----------



## MollySmith

Deleted


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> That year would be up for many and could explain some of the recent problems. Have you tried to get to see a doc even if you are ill?


Next day here for all my appointments. Phone call appointment same day.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> What rot.............Lorry drivers have to take tests every few years and those tests are running dreadfully behind because of Covid. Perfectly capable lorry drivers are being stopped from driving because of this law. Of course, Covid also had an impact on any new lorry drivers as they weren't able to take tests either,


This from Road Haulier Association whom I think we can all agree do know what they're talking about.... several factors are mentioned but Brexit is there. Here's the link to the source for clarity and evidence.

Take away the pandemic and we're left with some very clear evidence to show that despite Brexit being several years of negotiation, this problem was never factored in. This is despite the RHA warning the Government in 2019 and 2020. And 2017 during negotiations. Covid has affected it, it's touched every industry of course, but it can't be used an excuse to cover up false information from before the vote and lack of communication with a major industry body since.

Doubtless we'll cope, frankly I'm not bothered about the lack milkshakes in McDonalds as I've never had one and compared to the rest of the world it's a first world problem but it's hardly the utopia that was promised in our post-Brexit world when one removes the pandemic and looks at this shortfall. _Sixty thousand drivers. _ That's not rot, that's fact and I can't imagine the stress this is placing on drivers at the moment and those who depend on their deliveries including small businesses who have already been through hell and back with Covid. This could mean the end of many and that's terribly sad. 
_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP

Prime Minister

10 Downing Street

London

SW1A 2AA

23rd June 2021

Dear Prime Minister,

Critical supply chains failing due to the significant shortage of HGV drivers

We are urgently writing to ask for your personal intervention to help resolve the significant and rapidly deteriorating shortage of HGV drivers.

Prior to the pandemic, we estimated a shortage in excess of 60,000. At that time UK road transport businesses employed approximately 600,000 HGV drivers, including 60,000 from EU member states who were residing and working in the UK.

Several factors have exacerbated the shortage which is now at crisis point (over 100,000) and critical supply chains are failing. Those factors include:

COVID - Many drivers returned to their country of origin during extended periods of lockdown and restricted travel. The vast majority have not yet returned.

EU exit - The uncertainty of Brexit and future rights to live and work in the UK forced many drivers to do the same. Again, the vast majority have not returned nor are they expected to.

Retiring drivers - The average age of an HGV driver is 55, with less than 1% under the age of 25. Prolonged periods of inactivity have resulted in much of this aging workforce retiring early or finding employment in other, less demanding, sectors.

Test shortage - During a typical year, 72,000 candidates train to become HGV drivers with 40,000 succeeding. The complete shutdown of vocational driving tests throughout much of last year resulted in the loss of over 30,000 test slots and only 15,000 were able to complete training successfully - a drop of 25,000 from the previous year.

IR35 - The introduction of IR35 has resulted in agency labour withdrawing their services as low-profit margin logistics businesses (typically 2-3%) cannot sustain demands for £5-£6 per hour rate increases. For clarity, we welcome legislation that ensures fair and equal tax for all. However, Government must now recognise the repercussions of this and the other issues mentioned and urgently intervene to help us to resolve the resulting crisis.

We are grateful to Ministers from the Departments for Transport, and Work and Pensions, who have met with us to discuss solutions, but it is clear, despite best intentions, that there is no immediate plan. We firmly believe that intervention from the Prime Minister / Cabinet Office is the only way that we will be able to avert critical supply chains failing at an unprecedented and unimaginable level. Supermarkets are already reporting that they are not receiving their expected food stocks and, as a result, there is considerable wastage.

To make the situation even worse, summer holidays are fast approaching, and drivers will take their leave entitlement. The lack of agency drivers to help support their absence will exacerbate the problem even further as will continued unlocking of the economy and the spikes in demand for food and drink created by the hot weather and major sporting events. Furthermore, the Christmas build that retailers begin in August / September will be seriously affected - all of which will affect Government's ability to "build back better".

We are asking for your direct support as follows:

1. We need an immediate solution to this problem - we are not going to solve this now by training drivers and as such need access to EU and EEA labour. We ask for the introduction of a temporary worker visa for HGV drivers and for this occupation to be added to the Home Office Shortage Occupation List.

This will allow UK-registered transport operators to access a workforce that can live and work in the UK more easily and encourage those who have left to return - even if this is short-term measure whilst we concentrate on a longer-term plan. DEFRA already have arrangements in place that support our harvest periods when foreign labour restrictions are eased for specific demand. The same principles should be applied.

2. Government needs to work with the industry to help address the broader issues around the skills shortage. We must work collectively to achieve a sustainable way of recruiting and training a homegrown workforce so that our reliance on foreign labour dissipates over time. We ask that a taskforce is immediately established to include representation from all of the relevant areas of Government and industry to help drive this change at the pace that is so desperately needed.

3. The DEFRA Food Resilience Industry Forum, chaired by Chris Tyas, helped to ensure the nation's supply integrity throughout the pandemic. This was recently disbanded. However, in view of the growing crisis, it must be re-established at the earliest opportunity.

It is our collective view that there has never been a more challenging time for this industry and we urge you to take these decisive steps to ensure that we can continue to maintain the UK's integrated and finely balanced supply chains.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Burnett

Chief Executive - RHA

Co signatories:

John Williams, Executive Chairman, Maritime Transport

Steve Granite, CEO, Abbey Logistics Group

David Pickering, CEO, Eddie Stobart

James Wroath, CEO, Wincanton

Thomas Van Mourik, CEO, Culina Group

Dan Myers, Managing Director, XPO Logistics

Paul Bennell, Managing Director, Samworth Brothers Supply Chain

Andrew Malcolm, CEO, The Malcolm Group

Mark Johnson, National Customs & Trade Control Director, KUEHNE + NAGEL

Andrew Howard, Managing Director, P C Howard

Kate Lester, Founder and CEO, Diamond Logistics Group

Lesley O'Brien OBE, Director, Freightlink Europe

Ian Wright CBE, Chief Executive, Food and Drink Federation

Richard Harrow, Chief Executive, British Frozen Food Federation

James Bielby, CEO, Federation of Wholesale Distributors

Shane Brennan, CEO, Cold Chain Federation

Emma McClarkin, Chief Executive, British Beer and Pub Association

Nick Allen, CEO, British Meat Producers Association

Angus Blundell, Marketing Director, Certas Energy UK

Mark Garner, Marketing Director, SNAP

James Anthony French MBE, Managing Director, Road to Logistics

_


----------



## MilleD

Does anyone have any info of the pumping raw sewage into waterways story?

Is this purely down to Brexit? Or something that has always happened??

@Jesthar maybe?


----------



## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> Also, there's a huge shortage of raw materials for packaging, Glass, steel, plastic even cardboard. That can't be helping the supply chain


Neither are the holdups caused by blockades on major roadways by protestors …










Police don't seem to be moving them off the road.


----------



## Magyarmum

For some reason we have a lettuce shortage There haven't been any in the supermarkets for weeks now.


----------



## MilleD

Lurcherlad said:


> Neither are the holdups caused by blockades on major roadways by protestors …
> 
> View attachment 476147
> 
> 
> Police don't seem to be moving them off the road.


Selfish idiots.


----------



## Calvine

I cannot vouch for the veracity of this post, but apparently (and allegedly), Waitrose are paying their drivers £53k (more than some of their executives and more than the pilots flying for some of the budget airlines). I seem to recall I read this in the _Daily Getsmuchworse_ so whether or not it's true is anybody's guess.


----------



## teddylion

My parents are experiencing extreme shortages in some things. They wanted a coffee tray and were told there was a three month wait!

They live in New Zealand.


----------



## JANICE199

*We are still buying ALL salad stuff from our supermarkets..*


----------



## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *We are still buying ALL salad stuff from our supermarkets..*


Can't get any bread or potatoes from our today and still lots of gaps on the shelves :Jawdrop


----------



## Happy Paws2

Couldn't get any Warburtons bread or any potatoes today and still lots of gaps on the shelves.


----------



## MilleD

teddylion said:


> My parents are experiencing extreme shortages in some things. They wanted a coffee tray and were told there was a three month wait!
> 
> They live in New Zealand.


Pretty sure that's not Brexit related 

I think a lot of Covid effects are being blamed on Brexit. It's just difficult to separate the two.


----------



## Siskin

For the last two weeks all my groceries have arrived apart from one thing yesterday but as it was the last day of an offer I’m not surprised they had run out.
I have been clicking on substitutions more then I would normally do just in case. Maybe it’s certain areas or certain supermarkets that are having issues for some reason


----------



## Jesthar

MilleD said:


> Does anyone have any info of the pumping raw sewage into waterways story?
> 
> Is this purely down to Brexit? Or something that has always happened??
> 
> @Jesthar maybe?


Overall, a bit of both. There are always instances where sewage is discharged to waterways, but pre-Brexit this primarily happened when there was a heavy storm that overwhelmed the capacity of the local sewer network. There's only so much you can do about that - if the heavens decides to dump several days or weeks worth of usual rainfall on an area in a matter of hours, then at some point there's not going to be enough room in the sewers and storm tanks. And you can't just build bigger sewers for a number of reasons, the primary ones being a sewer requires a minumum level of flow to work properly or it gets bunged up as there's not enough water passing through them to keep them clean. It's worth noting that in these situations the raw effluent discharged is very dilute, so not particularly hazardous from a poo perspective. There are, of course, other situations where there is genuine lack of capacity in the network (usually due to new buildings going up), but water companies have to do something about those relatively quickly (which may still be a few years as these things take time) as the Environment Agency will jump on us if we don't.

The situation I think you are referring to, though, is where partially treated (not raw) sewage is discharged from a treatment works because of a shortage of chemicals that are usually used to treat the sewage. This situation is indeed entirely down to Brexit, with both the import chaos limiting the incoming supply of treatment chemicals and the lack of HGV drivers contributing to the problem. We're very limited in where we can apply allow discharges, though (low and moderate risk sites only), and you'd better believe that we won't do it unless we absolutely have to. Every single application has to be approved in writing by the Environment Agency first, too, we can't just do it and claim it was necessary later.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Overall, a bit of both. There are always instances where sewage is discharged to waterways, but pre-Brexit this primarily happened when there was a heavy storm that overwhelmed the capacity of the local sewer network. There's only so much you can do about that - if the heavens decides to dump several days or weeks worth of usual rainfall on an area in a matter of hours, then at some point there's not going to be enough room in the sewers and storm tanks. And you can't just build bigger sewers for a number of reasons, the primary ones being a sewer requires a minumum level of flow to work properly or it gets bunged up as there's not enough water passing through them to keep them clean. It's worth noting that in these situations the raw effluent discharged is very dilute, so not particularly hazardous from a poo perspective. There are, of course, other situations where there is genuine lack of capacity in the network (usually due to new buildings going up), but water companies have to do something about those relatively quickly (which may still be a few years as these things take time) as the Environment Agency will jump on us if we don't.
> 
> The situation I think you are referring to, though, is where partially treated (not raw) sewage is discharged from a treatment works because of a shortage of chemicals that are usually used to treat the sewage. This situation is indeed entirely down to Brexit, with both the import chaos limiting the incoming supply of treatment chemicals and the lack of HGV drivers contributing to the problem. We're very limited in where we can apply allow discharges, though (low and moderate risk sites only), and you'd better believe that we won't do it unless we absolutely have to. Every single application has to be approved in writing by the Environment Agency first, too, we can't just do it and claim it was necessary later.


Thank you for the info, much appreciated x


----------



## teddylion

MillieD, I absolutely agree - not Brexit-related as far as I can see. It's like the inflation, rocketing house prices, staff shortages, bare shelves etc, it's happening all over the world (well, most definitely in NZ and Australia as I get all the updates from family) but somehow it's all due to Brexit...

I think globally speaking we're all in for a rough ride ahead.


----------



## daveos

Nothing to do with leaving the EU their is a huge shortage of Lorry drivers throughout Europe and also here, Also food production sites are struggling or were with the NHS app pinging they seem to be getting better now though it is just the lorry shortages.


----------



## Blackadder

There has been a shortage of truck drivers for years & the reasons are many! While Brexit hasn't helped it's not the major cause, not by a long way.
I'm lucky, I got out about 3 years ago & I'm happier now than I've been for years even though I left for less money. Now that companies are desperate I could easily quadruple my earnings if I went back to it but.... not a chance.
It's estimated there are between 50,000-60,000 HGV licence holders not driving & working in other jobs, they don't want to do it! I could tell you why but then it would be a long boring essay/rant 

Just to add & to back up @daveos point the problem is Europe wide

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/driver-shortage-is-pan-european/


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## Guest

Calvine said:


> I cannot vouch for the veracity of this post, but apparently (and allegedly), Waitrose are paying their drivers £53k (more than some of their executives and more than the pilots flying for some of the budget airlines).


That would explain why my local Waitrose have not run out of anything.


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## rona

Calvine said:


> I cannot vouch for the veracity of this post, but apparently (and allegedly), Waitrose are paying their drivers £53k (more than some of their executives and more than the pilots flying for some of the budget airlines). I seem to recall I read this in the _Daily Getsmuchworse_ so whether or not it's true is anybody's guess.


An HGV job advertised on Waitrose own site 2 days ago quoted £32,298 per year. However, with all the added benefits and enhancementsm that could well expand to £53,000



oldeecatowner said:


> That would explain why my local Waitrose have not run out of anything.


That's more to do with everyone owning a sliced of where they work and treatment of all staff and their fairness to suppliers


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## Jesthar

daveos said:


> Nothing to do with leaving the EU their is a huge shortage of Lorry drivers throughout Europe and also here, Also food production sites are struggling or were with the NHS app pinging they seem to be getting better now though it is just the lorry shortages.


We are having a somwhat harder time of it than the EU, though, as a large number of EU drivers either left the UK or will now no longer cross into the UK border due to the extra costs and onerous paperwork now involved, which has bolstered the number of drivers available in the EU and further reduced the number in the UK.


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## daveos

Jesthar said:


> We are having a somwhat harder time of it than the EU, though, as a large number of EU drivers either left the UK or will now no longer cross into the UK border due to the extra costs and onerous paperwork now involved, which has bolstered the number of drivers available in the EU and further reduced the number in the UK.


It has not helped what you are saying is somewhat true the real problem is HGV LGV drivers have left in droves over recent years for many reasons I will give a example during lockdown a driver delivered his load to a supermarket but was not allowed to go in a use a toilet surely that is a human right.
That is one reason I know about their are many more due to do with the way staff are treated is the biggest problem I'm afraid.


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## Jesthar

daveos said:


> It has not helped what you are saying is somewhat true the real problem is HGV LGV drivers have left in droves over recent years for many reasons I will give a example during lockdown a driver delivered his load to a supermarket but was not allowed to go in a use a toilet surely that is a human right.
> That is one reason I know about their are many more due to do with the way staff are treated is the biggest problem I'm afraid.


I'm not arguing that - although the toilet example is not a great one during lockdown as most places restricted access to their premises. And no, using a toilet is not a human right - nor, strangely enough, is being given access to drinking water.

My point is solely that the situation is significantly worse for the UK because of Brexit than it otherwise would have been, not that Brexit is the sole reason for the problem.


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## daveos

Jesthar said:


> I'm not arguing that - although the toilet example is not a great one during lockdown as most places restricted access to their premises. And no, using a toilet is not a human right - nor, strangely enough, is being given access to drinking water.
> 
> My point is solely that the situation is significantly worse for the UK because of Brexit than it otherwise would have been, not that Brexit is the sole reason for the problem.


Wow that surprised me would have thought access to a toilet or water was a basic human right guess we learn something new everyday.
It is not just Drivers also we have lost a few seasonal workers and food production workers if we were still in EU would it have been better I honestly don't know with Covid and lockdowns, I'm sure it will unfortunately get worse before it gets any better.


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## Blackadder

Jesthar said:


> My point is solely that the situation is *significantly* worse for the UK because of Brexit than it otherwise would have been, not that Brexit is the sole reason for the problem.


No, Brexit hasn't helped but it's made things slightly worse, not significantly! It's not only a European problem...


> A shortage of truckers across the U.S. has become so severe that companies are trying to bring in drivers from abroad like seemingly never before.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-has-the-u-s-looking-for-more-drivers-abroad


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## rona

The right to water is Is there in international law?

Under HSE employment laws there is a right to toilet facilities and drinking water.

Also,under normal circumstances, it's illegal to stop delivery drivers etc. using facilities 
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../887867/dft-hse-letter-drivers-facilities.pdf


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## HarlequinCat

Jesthar said:


> I'm not arguing that - although the toilet example is not a great one during lockdown as most places restricted access to their premises. And no, using a toilet is not a human right - nor, strangely enough, is being given access to drinking water.
> 
> My point is solely that the situation is significantly worse for the UK because of Brexit than it otherwise would have been, not that Brexit is the sole reason for the problem.


As a supermarket delivery there should have been toilets though. All the supermarkets by me had their toilets open throughout lockdown...


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## cheekyscrip

Well… hmmm…I better keep quiet…
BJ is still smiling… what can go wrong?…


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## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> Well… hmmm…I better keep quiet…
> BJ is still smiling… what can go wrong?…


Apparently he's asked TV companies to broadcast more British Tv. He's been watching Sid James whimpering 'daddy' and calling Carrie 'crumpet'.


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## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> I'm not arguing that - although the toilet example is not a great one during lockdown as most places restricted access to their premises. And no, using a toilet is not a human right - nor, strangely enough, is being given access to drinking water.
> 
> My point is solely that the situation is significantly worse for the UK because of Brexit than it otherwise would have been, not that Brexit is the sole reason for the problem.


agree (and so did the Road Haulage Association). And I know numerous small business owners who can't ship products abroad, it's simply not cost effective and a direct impact of Brexit. Not me personally, I have a service business but product is a problem.


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## Guest

The crown is going to be printed on pint glasses (according to the news paper I read this had to be removed due to the EU) and the UK is moving back to pounds and ounces from kg. BJ might be smiling because the reshuffled Government intends to review EU laws the UK adopted when we left the EU and used whilst being a member of the EU to get rid of the ones the Government doesn't want.

Edited to provide proof of what I have said:-

*Ministers plan post-Brexit return of imperial pounds and ounces in review of EU laws*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/imperial-units-pounds-ounces-brexit-b1921732.html

*UK pledges to restore pounds and ounces as Brexit benefit*
https://www.ft.com/content/23569cd6-edc1-475e-956a-53ffe5ac5f1c

*Brexit triumph as Crown Stamp returns to pint glasses after bonfire of EU rules *
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...mp-returns-pint-glasses-bonfire-eu-rules/amp/


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## Jesthar

oldeecatowner said:


> The crown is going to be printed on pint glasses (according to the news paper I read this had to be removed due to the EU) and the UK is moving back to pounds and ounces from kg. BJ might be smiling because the reshuffled Government intends to review EU laws the UK adopted when we left the EU and used whilst being a member of the EU to get rid of the ones the Government doesn't want.
> 
> Edited to provide proof of what I have said:-
> 
> *Ministers plan post-Brexit return of imperial pounds and ounces in review of EU laws*
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/imperial-units-pounds-ounces-brexit-b1921732.html
> 
> *UK pledges to restore pounds and ounces as Brexit benefit*
> https://www.ft.com/content/23569cd6-edc1-475e-956a-53ffe5ac5f1c
> 
> *Brexit triumph as Crown Stamp returns to pint glasses after bonfire of EU rules *
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...mp-returns-pint-glasses-bonfire-eu-rules/amp/


Well, as far as 'benefits' go, those are definitely at the pathetic end of the spectrum...


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## Calvine

Blackadder said:


> There has been a shortage of truck drivers for years & the reasons are many


The recent shortage is apparently/allegedly _partly_ due to the fact that thousands of HGV driving tests last year were cancelled during the pandemic and one of the reasons (former) truck drivers are being lured back with huge salaries by some companies; which is pretty much bound to have the knock-on effect of higher prices at the supermarket.

Soaring pay puts Waitrose lorry drivers on a par with lawyers | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)


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## Happy Paws2

But a lot of the drivers we had went home to the EU when brexit came into force and now can't get back, same as people who helped out on the farms. Again thank you BJ.


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## daveos

Don't just blame Boris the real person to blame is David cameron it was his gamble to try to win voters from UKIP.


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## MollySmith

daveos said:


> Don't just blame Boris the real person to blame is David cameron it was his gamble to try to win voters from UKIP.


True, what happened to him? I guess probably earning more from one after dinner speech than the average family in a year.


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## Britt

Sorry for bumping up an old thread but I can’t find my post about my London trip next Sunday.

Because of Brexit I won’t be allowed to bring back any food for me, my friends and my cats. I guess all I will do is go to the Bob Memorial and do window shopping


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## Happy Paws2

Don't start me started on that again, I still haven't forgiven BJ for taking us out with such a rubbish deal.


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## KittenKong

Britt said:


> Sorry for bumping up an old thread but I can't find my post about my London trip next Sunday.
> 
> Because of Brexit I won't be allowed to bring back any food for me, my friends and my cats. I guess all I will do is go to the Bob Memorial and do window shopping


So sad. Just be assured not everyone in the UK voted for this.

The warnings of Putin's involvement and the financing of the Leave campaign are becoming apparent. People were warned, but the influence of the MSM was too strong to even chip at. A now former friend called me a disgrace to my country for being pro EU .

At least the plan to cause the collapse of the EU didn't happen, if anything it has become stronger as little England is becoming increasingly isolated.


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## cheekyscrip

I am so sad to see my predictions coming true.
I told so many times about Russian propaganda behind fuelling resentment against EU.
I warned so many times to think where the capital will come after Brexit.
That Brexit plays into hands of Russia and China.
I never thought it emboldened Putin to invade the whole Ukraine. 
He already subdued Belarus with their puppet government.

Russia meddling in Brexit and Trump election bears now terrible results.

Who are the donors of ERG - what boards they sit on?
Russia used disinformation and corruption to prepare the ground - old KGB school of thought.

So while the Western Europe argued, USA was divided Putin went for a kill.

Literally.

And Mr Z was banned for speaking the truth.

Now the truth is - if our world is to preserve democracy, not just an empty slogan masking the playground of the rich Putin has to all with all his cronies.
No matter what nationality they are they all who support him have blood on their hands.
This is blood money.
This the same as trading with any dictator, it is no different to trading with Hitler.

If Hitler was stopped… does West ever learn?


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## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> I am so sad to see my predictions coming true.
> I told so many times about Russian propaganda behind fuelling resentment against EU.
> I warned so many times to think where the capital will come after Brexit.
> That Brexit plays into hands of Russia and China.
> I never thought it emboldened Putin to invade the whole Ukraine.
> He already subdued Belarus with their puppet government.
> 
> Russia meddling in Brexit and Trump election bears now terrible results.
> 
> Who are the donors of ERG - what boards they sit on?
> Russia used disinformation and corruption to prepare the ground - old KGB school of thought.
> 
> So while the Western Europe argued, USA was divided Putin went for a kill.
> 
> Literally.
> 
> And Mr Z was banned for speaking the truth.
> 
> Now the truth is - if our world is to preserve democracy, not just an empty slogan masking the playground of the rich Putin has to all with all his cronies.
> No matter what nationality they are they all who support him have blood on their hands.
> This is blood money.
> This the same as trading with any dictator, it is no different to trading with Hitler.
> 
> If Hitler was stopped… does West ever learn?


I don't take pleasure in being proven right either


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## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> I am so sad to see my predictions coming true.
> I told so many times about Russian propaganda behind fuelling resentment against EU.
> I warned so many times to think where the capital will come after Brexit.
> That Brexit plays into hands of Russia and China.
> I never thought it emboldened Putin to invade the whole Ukraine.
> He already subdued Belarus with their puppet government.
> 
> Russia meddling in Brexit and Trump election bears now terrible results.
> 
> Who are the donors of ERG - what boards they sit on?
> Russia used disinformation and corruption to prepare the ground - old KGB school of thought.
> 
> So while the Western Europe argued, USA was divided Putin went for a kill.
> 
> Literally.
> 
> And Mr Z was banned for speaking the truth.
> 
> Now the truth is - if our world is to preserve democracy, not just an empty slogan masking the playground of the rich Putin has to all with all his cronies.
> No matter what nationality they are they all who support him have blood on their hands.
> This is blood money.
> This the same as trading with any dictator, it is no different to trading with Hitler.
> 
> If Hitler was stopped… does West ever learn?


*I would love to have been a fly on the wall when BJ was having all of those recent talks with Putin.*


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## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *I would love to have been a fly on the wall when BJ was having all of those recent talks with Putin.*


Well, he did say he would, "fix it" with the MSM getting behind, "Operation Save Big Dog".

When he said, "Let the bodies pile high".......

What's especially sickening is, the war has given him a boost in the polls


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## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> What's especially sickening is, the war has given him a boost in the polls[


That's because they have no idea what is going on in Ukraine, they are limit to what they are been told Putin is just telling them one lie after another.


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## JANICE199

*We in the UK seem to think that is only other countries that lie to their people. Has anyone stopped to think, we are being lied to as well? Just asking.*


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## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *We in the UK seem to think that is only other countries that lie to their people. Has anyone stopped to think, we are being lied to as well? Just asking.*


BJ has been lying to us ever since he started his Brexit campaign and as PM


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## rona

I'd still rather have Boris than this horrid little man, who tried to block the will of the people 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ow-ex-speaker-banned-commons-bullying-inquiry

He doesn't seem to have one shred of, empathy in him


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## cheekyscrip

Oh… if he only stopped Brexit…
Look into whose arms Britain was falling???
Whose capital poured into UK?


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## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh… if he only stopped Brexit…
> Look into whose arms Britain was falling???
> Whose capital poured into UK?


We and the majority of Europe were already there.


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## cheekyscrip

https://www.gbc.gi/news/some-uk-hauliers-unable-cross-frontier-spain-after-gibraltar-deliverySome U.K. hauliers unable to cross frontier into Spain after delivering to Gibraltar
Taking advantage - Spain don't allow UK supplies to come to Gibraltar, using Brexit as an excuse.


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## KittenKong

rona said:


> I'd still rather have Boris than this horrid little man, who tried to block the will of the people
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ow-ex-speaker-banned-commons-bullying-inquiry
> 
> He doesn't seem to have one shred of, empathy in him


Patel is a proven bully, a six figure sum payout of a victim is proof of that. Why are people ok with Tory ministers being above the law?

I don't know the details, but imagine Bercow has been silenced and the reason why we now have the useless Hoyle as speaker, who has normalised the appalling behaviour and of Johnson frequently misleading the house.

Are you sure you don't mean the will of the Putin?


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## rona

KittenKong said:


> Patel is a proven bully, a six figure sum payout of a victim is proof of that. Why are people ok with Tory ministers being above the law?
> 
> I don't know the details, but imagine Bercow has been silenced and the reason why we now have the useless Hoyle as speaker, who has normalised the appalling behaviour and of Johnson frequently misleading the house.
> 
> Are you sure you don't mean the will of the Putin?


No I meant exactly what I said, and as for Bercow being silenced Pfft

Haven't you heard the little weasel saying that all those that he bullied are in the wrong?

Patel should have been sacked or disciplined, but that doesn't make Bercow any less of a bully


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## Pawscrossed

I’d like to know how one identifies a bully in the House of Commons? Nobody behaves very respectfully.


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## £54etgfb6

Pawscrossed said:


> I'd like to know how one identifies a bully in the House of Commons? Nobody behaves very respectfully.


why are they so LOUD????? What is up with all the jeering and roaring and booing? Is this a pantomime? A zoo? A children's playground?

The fact that they don't possess the maturity to have a respectful discussion where *one* person speaks at a time (a lesson you learn as a child) is appalling. Any interruption into a speech should be an automatic dismissal from the room but then that would probably be fine since most of them don't turn up for half of the debates. The thought of discussing a serious matter, such as the NHS or refugees, and having someone *roar over you *laughing with all of their cronies in tow is absurd?? How does this allow for any progress?

I visited Holyrood once and they took turns to speak… fascinating


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## Pawscrossed

This is relevant to two threads here. Russian involvement in Brexit. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting


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## MollySmith

bmr10 said:


> why are they so LOUD????? What is up with all the jeering and roaring and booing? Is this a pantomime? A zoo? A children's playground?
> 
> The fact that they don't possess the maturity to have a respectful discussion where *one* person speaks at a time (a lesson you learn as a child) is appalling. Any interruption into a speech should be an automatic dismissal from the room but then that would probably be fine since most of them don't turn up for half of the debates. The thought of discussing a serious matter, such as the NHS or refugees, and having someone *roar over you *laughing with all of their cronies in tow is absurd?? How does this allow for any progress?
> 
> I visited Holyrood once and they took turns to speak… fascinating


Slight digression but I was reading this great article on the art of saying sorry and the psychotherapist comments on how Boris always says sorry with a conjunction (if/but). Many politicians do this and he has it down to an art form. Apologising for the energy crisis but deflecting to blame us (often during Covid and absolutely now cos any increase is our actions) and cost of living crisis on Covid, war and opposition parties.

Politicians are terrible at sorry and it shows. But it's infectious, I think. People aren't very good. Brands do it badly 'sorry, let's try that email again' or 'sorry to read this, DM us on this link' as their bot responds. Its not done with genuine feeling but become a word that is bandied around.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...be-meaningful-how-to-say-sorry-and-how-not-to


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## cheekyscrip

Great… just great. All going according to the plan, take from the poor , give to the rich..bye NHS…
And no one to stop it… 
So if we not paying to EU we should be rolling in it? So what exactly we are rolling in?
I much rather be wrong…


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## HarlequinCat

cheekyscrip said:


> Great… just great. All going according to the plan, take from the poor , give to the rich..bye NHS…
> And no one to stop it…
> So if we not paying to EU we should be rolling in it? So what exactly we are rolling in?
> I much rather be wrong…


I think so far they have given millions to ukraine, or I think at least 1billion in support to them. Which is a mind boggling amount to be fair


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## Lurcherlad

HarlequinCat said:


> I think so far they have given millions to ukraine, or I think at least 1billion in support to them. Which is a mind boggling amount to be fair


It is but, if Russia succeed, we are all in trouble …


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## Magyarmum

It's just been announced that the government has decided to drop the tax cuts for the rich!


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## cheekyscrip

Incredible they thought it would be acceptable!!!


----------

